{"audio_document_id": "17DaysTh1945.flac", "identifier": "17DaysTh1945", "text_document_id": "17DaysTh1945.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [7390, 4643, 3843, 3300, 3280, 12093, 3880, 11593, 4383, 8380, 2840, 9150, 1713, 5863, 5910, 4890, 4150, 4140, 4683, 5590, 1183, 6113, 19840, 2820, 3030, 3380, 2670, 2793, 4260, 3133, 5570, 3520, 3140, 1610, 3050, 3080, 3810, 6810, 2713, 6237, 4443, 2803, 8990, 4563, 4420, 4140, 5087, 9543, 6910, 14150, 7843, 4120, 3994, 8876, 12880, 5493, 6820, 4250, 4343, 5060, 10983, 5000, 7223, 8839, 9025, 3478, 8913, 1833, 4363, 9928, 3508, 6010, 2350, 8570, 3685, 8138, 7920, 15090, 7920, 6400, 9746, 12417, 9886, 14253, 3520, 5000, 5342, 7783, 11243, 11427, 4933, 3300, 6280, 9063, 6535, 11759, 8287, 6069, 6931, 4400, 10784, 7733, 16192, 12308, 63003, 1910, 15013, 2220, 11100, 1003, 8143, 5762, 2620, 12750, 19770, 7500, 4020, 7753, 2430, 2523, 11407, 7173, 11912, 9298], "label": ["there was nothing particularly unusual about that seven 30th one thousand nine hundred and forty five", "subways railroad terminals and ferry boats is for office bound millions", "women went about their housework and later their days shopping", "part of this normal life was newspaper", "taken as a matter of course by everyone", "so regular and complete a part of normal everyday living that finding newspapers on the news then buying them morning and night was taken pretty much for granted", "never a thought of the rumbling presses that produced them", "completely oblivious to the vast transportation system that placed them so conveniently on fourteen thousand strategically located news stands through out the city", "no reason to contemplate what life without newspapers would mean", "until it suddenly and with little warning strike one thousand seven hundred delivery men ceased work", "newspaper trucks stopped rolling", "news stands formerly piled high with eight daily new york newspapers where devoid of newspapers devoid of customers", "barron as a desert waste", "with the lone exception of pm news stands were as bare as mother hubbard's cupboard", "thirteen million metropolitan new yorkers deprived of their daily newspaper fair", "and this at a time when great events were in the making the world over", "president truman was on his way to a meeting of the big three", "japanese cities were being laid waste by b29s", "thousands of american boys were returning home from european battlefields", "now newspapers were more than a habit more than a convenience", "they were a necessity", "here then was the time of all times for radio the psychological moment", "for years the point has been argued discussion has raised pro and con will radio eventually supplant newspaper isn't it easier to turn a switch than to read an editorial yes for radio here was a heaven sent opportunity", "reluctant to profit by adversity", "hesitant to capitalize misfortune", "radio nevertheless had a job to do", "a public service to perform", "and radio rose nobly to the occasion", "newscasters and commentators labored long and hard", "radio news programs were substantially increased", "many newspapers either started or increased their regular news radio roundup", "the times was on the air every hour on the hour", "the herald tribune had a regular news period", "the news doubled its schedule", "went on the air forty eight times a day", "at almost any hour day or night", "the public could flip a dial and hear a newscast", "certainly if news by a radio could satisfy the news hungry public", "radio was giving it every chance", "but something was lacking an appetizer is a poor substitute for a full meal", "a starving man languages on a hollywood diet", "radio was apparently not the right answer", "newspaper readers telephone then and discovered that despite tickets newspapers were still being published every day", "learned they could have obtain copies by going directly to the newspaper plant", "here is the herald tribune plant on the first day of the strike", "showing the truck loading platform used to sell papers in the emergency", "the first day of the strike herald tribune circulation plummeted to fifteen thousand", "but as more and more loyal tribune readers learned they could buy the paper at the plant they went to the herald tribune in ever increasing numbers", "on the last day of the strike the herald tribune sold sixty five thousand copies", "by far the greater portion of them in direct over the counter sale to tribune readers who had taken the time and trouble to come far out of their way to get a copy of their favorite morning newspaper", "this represents as surprisingly high percentage of tribune circulation achieved under extremely difficult condition", "meanwhile a flood of tribune readers phoned the paper", "please give me more information on the change in red point value", "is it true that president truman is out of the country on what troop ship is my husband returning home now let's move to the journal american", "here is a newspaper plant so disadvantageously located for the general public that the paper maintains frequent bus service for its own employee to a nearby transportation center", "the sirens of east river shipping convoys provide a musical background for the roar of the presses", "despite its inaccessible location journal american readers traveled to the plant on south street in droves", "circulation on the first day of the strike drops to four thousand", "but by the end of the strike daily sales figures climbed to twenty five thousand", "mirror fans lined up at the mirror plant in mounting crescendo", "daily sales figures are unavailable but through teaming rain and glazing heat mirror readers made the trip to the plant stood in line made their purchase", "the new york sun here was new york's longest picket line", "it is impossible to show the full effect of the sun readership line because the paper was sold inside the building", "sun readers entered the marble lobby of the building shown in the center made their purchase inside and emerged through the door at the left", "when sales got too heavy for the emergency office boxes were set up in the marble foyer to serve as temporary news stands", "then during rush hours the place looked like grand station", "circulation climbed from a low of twenty three thousand on the first day of the strike to a high of seventy eight thousand on the last day", "the new york world telegraph", "this plant is located downtown near the new jersey commuting terminal", "the entrance where papers were sold is situated on a narrow side street in deep shadow untouched by the rays of the afternoon sun", "this made it impossible to take color pictures", "there was nothing shadowy however about the long lines of world telegram readers", "who came from near and far", "readers made the trip to the world telegram plant all the way from new haven connecticut from the far corner of long island", "lines five blocks long were a daily occurrence", "thousands filed slowly into the telegram building and emerged triumphantly with their favorite afternoon newspaper", "circulation rose from fifteen thousand on the first day of the strike to fifty thousand on the last day", "the new york times because of its times square location and because it is a morning paper the largest time's crowd during weekdays occurred at night and are not shown here", "blocks adjacent to the times were frequently choked with readers for a couple of hours around theater closing time", "a new jersey resident bought five copies of the paper to auction off at a red cross meeting", "when the copies of the times has got as far as asbury park new jersey although wellread by train passengers they were sold for a dollar a copy of current", "fifty cents if a day old a news stand manager at little silver new jersey was offered a dollar for a day old time but refused to sell because he wanted to read it himself", "times daily circulation rose from thirty eight thousand on the first day of the strike to two hundred and ten thousand the final day", "the new york news for twenty two hours out of every twenty four news readers poured in and out of the news building two to four abreast from six o'clock in the morning to four am the next morning", "lines began forming in the afternoon about five o'clock", "stood for three hours to await the first edition at eight hundred and fifteen pm", "the longest line occurred on a saturday night to buy the sunday news", "this line seventeen blocks long snaked its way along third avenue back and forth on cross streets to 32nd street", "city police went through the subways at 34th street warning passengers bound for the news building to get off of there to join the line instead of going on up to 42nd street", "assistant chief inspector john de martino of the new york city police department said this was the biggest lineup crowd in my experience at average thirty thousand per hours", "people stood in line for two hours before reaching the counter", "42nd street grew accustomed to a daily ritual", "passing trolley cars were parked while motormen and passengers got off to buy the paper", "taxis private cars the street and adjacent blocks were packed throughout each evening with vehicles while passengers and drivers bought the news", "one of the picketers after shedding his sign nightly went inside to buy his paper", "from thirty seven thousand over the counter sales on the first day of the strike sales zoom to nine hundred and fifteen thousand on the last day", "of which five hundred and eighty four thousand sales were made over the counter to individuals in the lines you see", "happily however even laborer strike has its lighter moment", "by courtesy of movietone news mayor f h laguardia reads the comic", "now here in full picture is the laundry wagon with the yellow laundry writing", "and what brought back the driver you know he uh was very calmly sitting down with his back toward the back of the wagon eating his lunch", "and our little friend at the hub uh what was her name i'll have it in minute she's inside with the money", "as she said when are you going to let me out of here he said he said easy sister easy and then the next picture and we hear the sound from inside the wagon", "open the door and wet wash says i let you off when you decided to give me a better cut of that dough from the inside and we see the inside", "now i offered one thousand what do you think i am this is my money and if you remember she stopped stripping them tearing up the laundry and she had all of the money in bills in the pillows that we hear wet wash listen baby i know you're a maid at bamboozles i saw you there last week and i know that something funny about that dough now when we get it it's going to be five thousand and fifty okay then maybe you like some more of your laundry torn to pieces riiiiiiiip she's ripping the lingerie there delicate piece of lingerie and he looks in ye gods i lose my job over there stop you win i'll settle for five grand now get this picture here was wet wash the doors of the laundry wagon are open and he's leaning with his back toward the wagon", "and he's counting his money", "two three four thousand now he's getting into the hundreds six hundred seven hundred eight hundred and the picture shows a hand affectless specking out", "she's got hold of that iron pot", "remember the iron pot took from the gardeners flat to put the money in and crash she cracked it on his head", "knocked out", "hey children what does it all mean it means that dirty money never brings any luck", "thus new york learn that as the newspapers could not to go to the public", "the public would come to the paper", "during the seventeen days of the strike the public came to the various plants bought a total of ten million six hundred and twenty eight thousand newspaper trouble inconvenience", "this was the price paid each day for new york newspapers by long lines of people in rain and sun standing for hours on hard concrete risking bodily harm by cutting through picket lines impervious to shouted warnings of tickets in a city heavily unionized", "men women and children in all walks of life giving up a summer evening of pleasure or relaxation", "going without lunch or postponing dinner for hours", "coming for miles and oven warm subways to stand for a long period in halting or slow moving files", "patient perspiring persistent", "all for a few penny purchase", "such is the miracle of journalism and such as the significance of newspapers to their reader newspapers which can be read and reread", "newspapers in which the public can read all about it in their own time at their own convenience", "and thus was new york's sigh of relief when the strike finally was ended when within the hour the trucks were rolling and new york life returned to normal", "once again dramatic proof has been given that no other medium can take the place of newspapers in 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{"audio_document_id": "RF-2014-03-10-JED-01-Baker-UncleJoe-Studio-E911.flac", "identifier": "20140310JEDBaker", "text_document_id": "RF-2014-03-10-JED-01-Baker-UncleJoe-Studio-E911.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [2120, 4480, 5803, 5030, 15319, 5331, 9590, 4917, 1150, 7740, 1760, 6400, 14529, 833, 4595, 3790, 5957, 2953, 9970, 5086, 833, 833, 11074, 914, 9110, 2655, 2075, 5370, 4020, 8360, 3756, 4824, 3180, 1350, 3006, 2143, 833, 1408, 2650, 7300, 986, 2694, 5900, 1250, 1338, 6642, 4560, 2820, 8740, 24840, 2101, 4689, 4620, 3590, 2910, 4960, 1076, 5234, 3140, 5263, 11805, 4685, 3923, 2887, 1580, 1200, 2413, 2330, 7970, 833, 12897, 1410, 1600, 1003, 3570, 1530, 1500, 2293, 9247, 1210, 2970, 1114, 1740, 2190, 10680, 6843, 7837, 960, 3143, 1007, 2120, 920, 8390, 5312, 1586, 7378, 7164, 1356, 7881, 7642, 2568, 1382, 7900, 1147, 7273, 2230, 2420, 9250, 3090, 3420, 4440], "label": ["so baker let's see what uncle joe's doing", "hey uncle joe how are you buddy oh pretty good pretty good", "i was waiting for bill to come in because i know he helps out a lot in instigating things", "you know after sixty years it's almost like a decommissioning of a fraternity house", "and i was just wondering if we're going to have some kind of like a fraternity party over there for all the clients who frequent the place or listeners and just have a good party and then we'll have the paddy wagon take us over to the new place and set up", "paddy wagon the mayor with the fire trucks and all that kind of parade", "and are you going to have a sidewalk studio where people walk by and talk to you well there's a lot of questions in there but let me take the last one first", "yeah you'll be able to walk right up and look in the window like the fishbowl at wgn", "and that's kind of cool", "we're not going to be right on the street we're going to be in a little bit to get away from the street noise but you'll be able to walk right up and see me sitting there", "you have external speakers i trust", "yes we got that was written into the contract and originally it wasn't there when we finally got it in there", "as a matter of fact bill baker and his many little tidbits of hey did you think about this did you think about that and i had to keep going back hey we got one more thing cause the answer was always no", "you know i didn't think about that", "but that was one of the things we added at the last minute is like we could put an external speaker", "but it can't be too loud to keep up the neighborhood or anything", "you know what i mean and then second of all uncle joe it is such an overwhelming time right now", "and we don't know what our party is going to look like", "we just are looking at it in either mid june or mid july of having kind of a 90th anniversary slash 10th anniversary slash brand new studio party", "and uncle joe you're the first to be invited okay all right buddy", "all right buddy", "talk to you", "and uncle joe please help too because we know we need to make sure that there's enough hot dogs and what else are you going to serve you're not going to serve like rc cola are you let's see if pepsi will help us out here", "yeah exactly", "there's an opportunity here so let's not well i'm not making it up about the lease because i'm not you know i make it very clear", "i don't want to be a real estate guy", "i mean and that's why we're going down there", "baker's like well why don't you just buy and build a place or a couple of guys in munster oh you could build it here", "you could build it there i'm like no i just want to rent and do radio and be left alone", "i want the world to leave us alone to do radio and then baker's like all right is this in the lease is that in the lease hold on chancellor i forgot", "can i get a speaker i mean i went back probably five times", "oh yeah what about this well you know i like the you're the smartest guy i know jim", "so i'm sure you got it all exactly it's all in there", "it just took for awhile", "couldn't you think of this before it's not all in there i guarantee it", "no we went through a pretty closely", "oh sure you did", "no you did with me", "what about this baker well you don't need that but you need this", "baker of course as a real estate lease guy and don't negotiate a lease with him without your lawyer around", "i'll just give you that much", "baker let's talk about a couple of things", "gary's gonna run buses to purdue cal and munster and highland because nobody else will", "there's no buses around here", "that's not true", "what about the township buses aren't those i listened to frank on the radio and he was talking about how he got twenty eight million", "is that your notes no that's not a fixed route bus service", "that is a point to point bus service", "so a fixed route bus service is the only way to take care of mass transit or transit in our community no that's a different discussion", "in other words should we just if somebody needs to go from here to their kidney dialysis and they don't have a lot of money and they might just get on a bus and go to that kidney dialysis is it cheaper to keep running those buses up and down calumet avenue and ridge road and all that or is it cheaper for frank to have that dialaride with jerry siska and all those guys i don't know the answer to that", "i mean that's a public policy thing", "only i know right now is gary public transport gbtc is taking it over", "and they're taking the lead and coming into hammond munster and highland", "and that's going to help a lot of people that don't have a lot of money", "they're expecting forty five thousand riders", "who is the gary public transit corporation so that's their study", "gptc", "and part of that reason that it's like listening to the study that's put together by the south shore people", "i mean what do you think it's going to say it's made as instructed", "think it's going to come out saying we don't need it i understand that", "and i understand skepticism on this because remember when we had the reasonable bus authority people coming in and out of here and i think they knew that their money was running out and they kept trying to hit numbers", "and it just couldn't you know the numbers were just not making any sense", "remember preacher preacher just saying hey i saw another that guy was sketchy", "what's that where is the preacher he's over there in a corner", "he was being a bad boy", "i put them in the corner over there", "cause there's no hanky panky going on in lake county", "so you know there's more than one way to solve the problem", "and i think it's more about a pragmatic way of solving the problem than just expanding the old way of doing things which is what we do here", "i don't know", "i think that somehow this whole thing just fell through the cracks and it is another example of our inability without a central power structure to get bigger jobs done", "we can't run a bus service", "okay well gary will have theirs", "ec will have theirs", "frank bervan and the township will have their situation", "and then it's all fragmented", "it's just like everything else around here", "we try to do all right let's look one thousand nine hundred and seventy five", "look at e911 okay the state says all right everybody in the state you got to have a countywide e911 or you're it was like ten years ago", "it was like ten years ago", "right so guess what what are we doing waiting to the last minute", "that's part of it", "we are waiting to the last minute", "and part of it is that we can't work together", "seventeen municipalities plus the county is at eighteen and now we've got holdouts in cedar lake highland and saint john and schererville and they have valid questions", "but is the time past i mean is highland just being obstinate is schererville being obstinate i don't know", "shouldn't those questions have been vetted over the ten years that wasn't long enough okay i agree with you on that", "i mean here it is", "so i mean spending a bunch of time talking about that it is what it is", "so here's the challenge", "how are we going to go about doing it say hey we have to do it", "it's the state's fault", "you need to acquiesce to my point of view or i'm calling the attorney general really is that what you said that's what they're saying", "so what do you think the attorney general i can't wait wednesday", "i'll call him don't worry", "right i mean what do you think the attorney general and he's going to be pragmatic about it and say well you know the state's role is this", "and the state's role is that but i gotta believe that if he's sitting around with his buddies from that like i was gonna say that", "southern indiana", "there's gotta be a more politically correct way of saying his rural friends from on the river and the ohio river", "and they're sitting around and one of his buddies he goes hey what goes on up there in lake county oh my god they can't even get together on an e911", "i got to be a referee can't even shovel the snow", "or shovel the snow", "but really i mean listen they got to put on this thing where they got a major dispatch center it's becoming a case to go in front of the indiana attorney general", "you're kidding me", "and i understand his position and regardless of what his personal perspective is he says the right thing", "he says his job is to defend his client", "and in that role his client is the state of indiana", "so it's going to be what the law says because if the law doesn't provide him any opportunity to do anything he's not going to have much of a say", "and i bring up an example is the state board of accounts", "i mean they do audits but there's no enforcement", "the attorney general doesn't actually have to enforce anything that's found by that state board of accounts"], "name": ["20140310JEDBaker/20140310JEDBaker/RF-2014-03-10-JED-01-Baker-UncleJoe-Studio-E911_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "Aliceheimer_s_at_MMCTV_-_An_Interview_with_Dana_Walrath.flac", "identifier": "Aliceheimer_s_at_MMCTV_-_An_Interview_with_Dana_Walrath", "text_document_id": "Aliceheimer_s_at_MMCTV_-_An_Interview_with_Dana_Walrath.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [1850, 5000, 7060, 8810, 14720, 7420, 4860, 10110, 7780, 4530, 3410, 2820, 3440, 5360, 2100, 6200, 8390, 9470, 2540, 6060, 5320, 8100, 3023, 3107, 11890, 7270, 6520, 7250, 6910, 7650, 8710, 12430, 15340, 16870, 19040, 8580, 1770, 3200, 4430, 3260, 9950, 8560, 4550, 4730, 9570, 5910, 10530, 32983, 3547, 9240, 7800, 2870, 4060, 5470, 870, 2300, 3360, 5170, 14610, 14250, 5423, 30131, 2938, 5092, 8220, 2520, 7640, 12510, 7243, 7160, 11980, 19980, 10490, 4830, 17330, 4810, 2020, 3880, 3510, 18580, 2953, 13660, 14520, 3130, 4160, 7673, 21833, 4860, 30440, 3540, 2600, 1060, 10930, 8860, 7630, 6180, 8530, 1930, 4187, 21983, 26490, 8763, 5810, 6923, 7350, 12810, 9980, 12150, 21920, 2520, 7425], "label": ["my mother's name is alice", "and when she had dementia she came and lived with us", "she had gotten kicked out of her apartment and she was still too well to go live in a lockdown unit", "and i wasn't especially close to her and yet i could not imagine her any place other than here", "and so she moved up here and it ended up being this incredible time of us being able to kind of heal and laugh and enjoy a relationship that we hadn't had before", "so the aliceheimer's is how i started thinking of it instead of alzheimer's that'd just be the sadness of the loss", "i watched her use the loss as a way to kind of gain other things", "so she kind of was able to do a lot of things that she couldn't do when all of her kind of social conscience was getting in her way", "so she in some ways was more herself and that was something that we could together really run with and have a good time", "and so we handled lots of aspects of dementia differently from most people", "so i started drawing about it and then writing about it", "and now those two things are really integrated", "the original drawings of course had the little writing on them too", "when my mother lived with us i discovered graphic narratives", "i just fell in love with the medium", "and i was using that time to kind of push my creative writing forward", "so and i was bringing all sorts of graphic narratives into the house and every last one of them my mother just loved reading", "and so i because she loved the medium so much i knew that when i wanted to tell our story that that was the right way to go", "i was messing around with comics", "i was sometimes trying to do it just completely digitally drawing on a tablet pc", "but i'm a little too oldfashioned for that and i didn't really find the voice until i got back to paper", "and i found the voice for the work the day i cut up a cheap paperback copy of lewis carroll's alice in wonderland to make alice's bathrobe", "and i had already been doing a lot of collage work", "throughout my life i've done collage work", "and the minute i did that i realized i know what the story how to tell this story i sat down i did my sketchbook", "december 1st through december 23rd i just pored through it kind of in one of those white heat frenzies", "and because i was a storyteller as well as a visual artist my sketchbook really told a story", "i'd started on page eight cause i knew like i had found the voice there with the bathrobe and the halos and so on and so forth", "and then i went back to page one started telling it and then kind of knew how it was gonna go till the end", "then people all of those were posted digitally through the brooklyn art library and people started commenting", "and then people who i shared the link with who were part of the project said we want to be able to comment on this and we can't make comments there", "you should start a blog so i put them all up on a blog and then i realized that blogs work better instead of having twenty six drawings on one post to make them come out one by one", "so in january of two thousand and eleven i began using each drawing to then inspire a vignette a piece of a story about our lives and interactions", "and then from there because of course i'd given away the originals to the brooklyn art library i started playing around with printing them up i had digital copies of everything but printing them up and printing some of them up really large", "my oldest son when he first saw them said mom i want to see these gigantic and so i made some so that alice was lifesize i made some smaller sizes and then i started sewing back into them first on canvas but then i switched over to sewing into paper", "and while i was using thick materials i'd print on a thick material it gets hard to shove a needle through a material", "and so i kept on", "so i got myself an awl to poke holes in it", "and then i realized that oh my gosh my grandfather was a shoemaker", "he probably worked with an awl all the time", "and so it was sort of all these different layers kind of came about through the act of making the drawings and then revisiting them and retelling them", "i think when you're a medical anthropologist you understand medical systems as cultural systems that are beliefs and practices", "and the medical medicine in the united states is about science", "it's about doctors who know the science of our bodies and how to fix it", "and so it's really great with the kinds of things that doctors have already figured out how to fix but in something like alzheimer's it's still uncurable", "and most of the efforts in our culture are about raising money for more research", "and this is a lovely thing to do but in the meantime i know they're not gonna cure it for my mother and i'm not sure when that's gonna happen", "and i think about death and dying and i want us as a society to be able to be more at peace with that and that when an illness is at the end of the life cycle and maybe we can't change it maybe we're never gonna be able to figure out exactly what's going on with the plaques and tangles well then maybe let's just change the society so that we can make it easier on the people that are living in that different kind of a state", "and i think that one of the best ways to change things is humor", "and i think that if we laugh and we lighten up about what's going on then we all of a sudden get creative and we have new ways to handle it", "one of the biggest things is that physicians view hallucinations always as something that we need to medicate", "i mean that's a symptom of something that's bad", "my mother does have a kind of dementia where she does hallucinate a lot", "and when she was with us we just got so we understood them", "we could read them", "we could kind of learn from them", "so at first it was just seeing my father and the maple trees", "and i finally figured out that she was just missing him and wanting to make peace with him", "and she kind of i don't know if it was subconsciously but there he was up and in the sky somehow or another you know maybe metaphorically approaching heaven and or something like that", "and so or she would sometimes see her parents and be trying to make peace with them because i think at the end of life everybody needs to make peace with others and with themselves", "so we use those hallucinations as a chance to talk about those things and make peace", "and we used so instead of saying they're not there and of course he's not there and trying to correct the reality we would just say oh you're in a different reality and sometimes it would happen a lot of that she would think she was around world war ii and that there were soldiers around the house and or she'd think that we were eating dog meat for dinner and i'd have to say no no it's steak", "we bought it at the country store or what have you", "and so i would just sort of explain well i'm in two thousand and ten", "you can buy this from the store and she was very comfortable saying oh okay i'm in one thousand nine hundred and forty four and you're in two thousand and ten", "that makes sense and we could just move on", "whereas if i had said what are you doing in world war ii again it's not really there you know it would have been a conflict", "and let's see we incorporated rituals into our daily lives that sort of made were soothing cause that's something that anthropologists always focus on", "we look at the rituals that exist in medicine like changing into the gown and the rituals of the medical exam", "so we just kind of embraced whatever rituals would work and made that a part of life", "the way we coped with every sort of nonconforming behavior that alzheimer's brought out is we treated it like it was a superpower", "so when she'd say don't you see him he's right there instead of saying no he's not there i'd say i can't see him but you can cause you have special powers and that affirming of her reality kept her from getting agitated", "and so when i went to draw i knew i had to capture that and being able to fly is one of the coolest things that we all want to do", "and so alice was flying very very early in the story", "and i think the next drawing that came right after that was about her being ungrounded so only half of her showing", "and that's how i thought of alzheimer's disease", "it wasn't she was still here", "she was with us but she wasn't grounded the way the rest of us are", "she was kind of floating in a different world", "so those that then ended up kind of being a trope that's continued in the artwork and in the stories and and i guess it hearkens to the special power and that it's not just something to deny", "there's insights from the losses", "all belief systems have rituals and armenian belief systems i mean they're a very ancient christian nation the first nation to adopt christianity as a state religion back in three hundred and one", "and so that's a part of her upbringing and i felt like i wanted to honor that and really had the coolest experience circling back around that with her", "i mean she grew up in a religious family", "she completely rejected it so i did not grow up in a religious family", "i went off to sunday school with my methodist friends went to shul with my jewish friends to quaker summer camp to everything", "but during alzheimer's i thought it might be really nice to bring my mom to armenian church and you know sure enough we got there and she just kind of got into the service and standing up and down and and started kind of chanting along cause she had done this every sunday of her childhood", "so again the iconography it kind of came in subconsciously", "i didn't realize it the first time i drew a halo around her head but when i drew it i said oh my gosh that looks like an armenian manuscript and then maybe that stimulated me to start thinking about you know it might be helpful to bring her to church someday and sure enough after the service the priest came up to her and asked her what was her name and she didn't say alice she said which means dove in armenian and it's the name her parents gave her", "i was a professor so i was used to speaking to people", "but to speak about your artwork is different", "it's more intimate", "and i think the first gallery talk that i gave was at dianne shullenberger's gallery in jericho and at her delicious words series", "and it was lovely to be able to just directly connect with people and know how the artwork touched them", "and i had already read some of my writing there but that was the first time that i spoke about the artwork", "and since then you know i've been speaking at festivals the full circle festival in burlington", "i spoke at tedxyerevan last year back in armenia tedxbattenkill speaking at the international comics and medicine conferences", "and i mean actually been going all over", "i go to academic things and then more open to the public things", "and i have to say that when i'm at the academic things what i love is making it be more down to earth and rather than erudite because i think that that's the strength about aliceheimer's that i've written it in a way that i'm trying to really connect with people and that's what you're supposed to do in public things", "so when i am in a more formal setting i still try and make it very interactive and and make people talk to each other and make people think about things that are personal and people respond that we're all looking for opportunities to process these hard things like watching a loved one lose their memories completely and not recognize them and die", "and so i want this to be a venue for us to be able to embrace the positive and also find a way to cope with the loss", "so one book is done the first volume of it and it came out with an armenian publisher", "harvest published it last fall and it's available through phoenix books and also at grand isle art works", "and what i'm working on now is a second book that's going to be told in more classic comics form", "so the first volume it was a series of comics that then i went back into afterwards and wrote a series of vignettes just strictly words that were inspired by each one of the pictures", "this next book is gonna take the form of like maus or the fun home or persepolis just in straight graphic narrative form", "i'm gonna blend the story of alice and her memory loss and her armenian upbringing as an immigrant in new york city with going to armenia and talking to old people there", "and inevitably the first thing that anybody would say to me in armenia when i said my mother has dementia would be oh was she a genocide survivor so in their mindset it made complete sense that you would lose your memory if you were hiding traumatic memories you know things that were just too painful to remember", "biomedical models don't go there at all", "and so this is gonna be a chance to kind of integrate those two stories and talk about memory on lots 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agenda", "at seven o'clock we always have citizens input and anything that's not reasonably anticipated in the last several days", "at seven hundred and five selectman's update at seven hundred and fifteen we have saga hibachi steakhouse for two items", "one is to provide an update and a report and the new procedures concerning the recent alcohol violations", "and the second item is a discussion and action related to the penalty that we imposed at the last meeting", "at seven hundred and forty we have a discussion with assistant town manager mary beth bernard in the board and discussion and a vote on the foxborough highway and water employee union contract", "at seven hundred and fifty and at seven hundred and fifty five we have i'm sorry seven hundred and fifty we have the special town warrant review and any changes in discussion", "seven hundred and fifty five and eight hundred and five we have the town manager and assistant town manager updates", "at eight hundred and fifteen mary beth bernard the assistant town manager will represent the board the vehicle use policy in anticipation of a vote", "at eight hundred and twenty five mary beth bernard and chief o'leary is gonna represent to us the constable policy and i think we're ready to vote on that", "at eight hundred and thirty five we're gonna go into executive session simply to approve the december 15th and the december 29th two thousand and fifteen executive session minutes", "and then in between we have a dozen or so action items", "so mary beth could you lead us in the pledge of allegiance", "i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all", "thank you", "okay is there anyone here for citizens input thank you", "if you could just come to the microphone and introduce yourself your name and address for the record", "yes my name is graham silliman", "i am the owner of tavolino at two hundred and seventy four patriot place", "we are a member of fox cares", "i want to address a hope about your impact as our town's licensing authority in looking at the redevelopment of shopping plazas in town", "for example at recent meetings you have shown an interest in shaping and cultivating the town's economic livelihood", "in your role as a licensing authority i urge you to also consider that broader interest and not just be a punitive body", "that has some relevance for things you're looking at tonight", "and i'll broaden it a little bit", "you know that late ending concerts and games create a time squeeze to serve guests before the usual closing times", "if you agree that the restaurants at patriot place are a useful tool for crowd and traffic control after events for these late situations do you have a responsibility to develop a proactive policy for example extending closing times could be a standard checklist item that you have when you approve late ending event licenses", "if patriot place licenses had been extended one hour on january 3rd what violations would the police have found at saga or would they have seen an okay operation as for the license holder you're looking at tonight saga they're a small business with few resources very little wealth depending on your decision tonight about holding their penalties in advance", "they're already looking at can we go to court do we go to court they have expenses okay and that stretches them", "again they're a small business they are not a large operation", "your actions have been one hundred punitive so far", "if in addition to that lights violations however you look at the bigger picture of what that restaurant does every day and what its role is in the town and in the place that it is a patriot place", "you could see this business as a perfect fit for the town and for patriot place by their deliberate design of the allocation of seats between the dining room and the bar their menu their price points and the style of service", "this is an operation that opens its stores every day as the kind of restaurant that you should want", "under the radar every day you're not looking at them they are not before you they are not in the police blotter", "please consider that with these guys", "we watch saga from across the street from where we are", "for me the biggest concern i can see is maybe they're a little bit unsophisticated and they may encounter some language barriers", "as a restaurant owner i mean the type of thing i think of is are they getting the best deal from their suppliers i mean it's a broader issue but they have regular business struggles", "and at the same time i worry that this sets them up for some mistakes", "we've begun to work with them a little bit", "and i can also say that we see that they care they learn they're serious about running a good business and being a responsible licensing holder", "i guess what i would say to you then is are you willing to nurture that do you wanna cultivate that you've talked about cultivating economic development in town in a broader sense with other issues", "dealing with a small business owner who's not a native speaker is different from dealing with corporate faceless national chains", "however if you want authentic local asian food you might wanna find a local asian to help produce it", "it might be desirable", "again the question for you guys is are you interested in cultivating that in the business mix let's boil this down finally to a very specific action item tonight saga has already announced that they're going to appeal your decision", "i have no other information about this", "i read about it in the reporter", "there is in this country a constitutional respect for due process", "you guys know that appeals can change your decisions including changes to penalties", "and knowing this may happen i ask you to hold the remaining penalty in advance for saga until they and the town have completed the appeal", "other towns do this in massachusetts it's only fair and not doing it is just being a bully", "we are also other license holders we're small businesses", "we watch what you guys do", "please consider this in the broadest possible terms you have to enforce the laws we respect that", "you have to enforce the regulations", "you also have a role in setting what the broader regulations are so that things operate efficiently in your town so that it's possible and easy for people to stay within the rules and still do the right things and the best things for the town in each of their operations", "please consider that broader role and more specifically tonight think about the impact you have on that business and the respect for due process that's it", "okay thank you sir", "very well said for the record with the exception of being a bully", "i think i agree with everything that was said", "so and actually if you wanna wait around the item is on the agenda", "i have to get back to the restaurant", "okay had you stayed you'd be welcome to participate", "might be somebody else might be somebody else yeah might be somebody else", "all right just on a quick update", "being one to three inches expected tonight just to remind everybody there is a parking ban in effect", "if you go to the town website it shows there i think it's from one hundred am to six hundred am", "so the town is in its right to ticket or tow", "and if it's a really nice car we get to keep it", "the other items if you notice in the packet and in some discussion back and forth to get it on the agenda we get a meeting thursday night and that is for judy's flowers to come in and mark and judy on the municipal conversion and what that is is when a town is auctioned or properties auctions are sold", "this provision allows them or requires them to come in front of the selectmen to share their ideas of redevelopment or development or nothing", "and then you have a say in that", "so there'll be a thursday at this room at six hundred and thirty", "and then we're also scheduled we schedule all the meetings with the advisory committee now", "so thank you for all of you guys who go to those meetings as well", "each week or each meeting we put on the town meeting warrant items for discussion", "and i wanted to just run through them quick at the beginning as a summary because the meeting is coming up in february and i think the more people understand it and come in and talk about it and participate the better", "so there's eight articles the meetings on february 23rd it runs a couple of hours and it'd be great to see some of the new people there in town and some of the", "for the most part it's been one hundred one hundred and thirty one hundred and fifty people maybe that come but there's a lot of work that goes in this all year round", "so i'm gonna go through the eight articles quick", "the first one is a home rule petition where we're asking for two things for the child abuse training sessions", "one is to add mandated reporters to the list of people in town", "basically people required in their profession or their job", "if they see something they mandated to report it", "and then also an article one is to require training", "we have a group in town that provides a training under the state law", "it just says training and there's no provisions on when how where to do it", "so those two items is added mandated reporters and a provision for training", "article two we are asking the state through the town to provide two additional liquor licenses in town", "article three is what we've termed the united steelworkers aflcio union which is the middle managers department heads and clerical employees contract for the year two thousand and fifteen and two thousand and sixteen", "article four is the police contract for two thousand and sixteen and two thousand and seventeen that's been negotiated and will be in on the warrant article", "article five is the boyden library employee contract for two thousand and sixteen and two thousand and seventeen", "article six is interesting because it's removal of the police chief from the civil service back in one thousand nine hundred and thirty one it got enacted in town and the town through its discussions and process decided that now's the time to remove the civil service from that", "so that'll be an article to be voted on in february", "article seven is a water main", "that's coming from main street up to lake view pavilion", "and that's sponsored i think through the cip or the water department water commission", "and then article eight is the one that a lot of people have been working on that's the new town hall and demolition of the old town hall", "so again it's only a couple of hours february 23rd would be nice to have a robust group there to go on this and this is what the town is all about the rules and the process that we follow", "so that's it for selectman's update unless there's anyone else that wants to add anything", "okay seven hundred and fifteen this isn't a public hearing we can go a minute or so early", "so if representatives from the saga hibachi steakhouse wanna come up", "so in this one this is a little bit of an anomaly and i'm just gonna give a little bit of a background", "the first item that saga is here to discuss going back on november 24th there was a alleged violation for serving or for i think there was three four of them that not clearing the tables et cetera", "we're familiar with that", "we had a hearing on the 29th on december imposed penalties", "on december 31st that letter was sent by certified mail out to hibachi saga", "and then we received a letter on january 6th that says there is going to be an appeal on the ten day suspension", "and the plc stated it was arbitrary and capricious not the decision to find them at fault but the penalty as we heard earlier it was a ten day going from january 8th to january 17th", "so we're right now halfway through it there i think five days into it", "yeah so when attorney stopa sent the letter it would have required this board to have a special meeting at the tail end of last week", "and i talked to town manager bill keegan and i think we decided that we would put it on the agenda tonight to decide halfway through the merits of that", "so the two things that we wanna talk we intentionally put the first item to see what provisions if any that they've come up with to make changes", "so this doesn't happen again", "and then the second one because it's under appeal i just wanna caution the board that not knowing where it's gonna go i do not wanna revisit the items of discussion when this board makes a decision", "i'm assuming that the person on the other side of the table put their best foot forward made their presentation we did it in a unified way and then we did our homework and we made the decision", "i don't like when people come up and try for a second pass at it", "but on this particular one where it's a respected business and a respected attorney i thought it would be worth discussing if this is something that if they have something new or some background or history that they wanted to share to sway us to maybe reconsider if we do wanna reconsider we follow the robert rules of order", "we would have to go back in and not rescind the motion but amend something that was already approved because this wasn't the way that the robert rules of orders plays out is to avoid having to revote things at the opportunity every meeting", "if this was up at the last meeting say we're gonna revote it and we participated tonight then we would need a majority vote but because it wasn't brought up this is the first time we're discussing under the robert rules of order we would need a two thirds vote", "so that would mean two thirds of the five people", "david did not participate last time but he informed me that he did go back and look at all the tapes", "he looked at the tape read the meeting minutes", "so he certifying that it will be a five person vote correct me if i'm wrong regular to vote so counselor's advice that he can certainly vote on that", "he can okay all right", "so two thirds out of the five means four out of five have to vote to revote this", "all right so just so you understand that", "so that second part we can talk about again after the first part of their presentation", "i just thought it was important for everyone to understand the history and where we're going with this", "so having said that welcome", "if you could just introduce yourself for the record", "mark stopa on behalf of the saga hibachi steakhouse", "i'm joined by eni chen and steven lynn", "they are the managers of the restaurant", "mr lynn is the liquor license manager", "eni chen runs the restaurant side and does most of the daytoday activities at the restaurant", "they were both here the last time that we were here they didn't come up and join me at the table because it was crowded at the table at the time", "but thank you for that introduction of where we are what we're doing and so forth", "and since we have number one and number two we'll start with number one", "as i had indicated at the time of the hearing even before there was a notice of violation saga hibachi steakhouse investigated the circumstances thoroughly and took action even without having been told to do so", "and just to remind you of what they did at that time they had fixed the cash register timing which had gone out because of a power failure", "they moved the last call for drinks from one thousand two hundred and forty to one thousand two hundred and thirty just to give themselves a ten minute buffer", "and again i know it doesn't necessarily need to be reminded but this was an entirely unusual set of circumstances that happened that night with the game running so late and it cut them off guard and everything that happened just became an innocent mistake that just snowballed", "but that having been said they decided that just generally speaking they'll move it to one thousand two hundred and thirty that way they don't ever encounter that problem again", "or at least they buy themselves another ten minutes or so of time to be able to react to exigent circumstances", "and lastly on that evening i indicated to you that they had already gone through retraining with all of the personnel in the restaurant to remind them what their obligation was regarding closing procedures and the timeliness of it", "since that meeting they've continued to make improvements to how they operate their business", "they've reduced those closing procedures to writing as well as some of the other important aspects of managing a liquor license in a restaurant bar", "and again emphasize because they put it in writing and presented it to their employees again as part of a secondary retraining they thought that that would have more emphasis because they can actually see what was being said to them", "so they again reviewed that in completion", "they've also now become part of fox cares which is why the gentlemen from tavolinos was here i suspect and there are fully involved with that activity and look forward to participating there", "and as indicated during the public input segment saga hibachi steakhouse is a valuable asset to the community and employs people and entertains people it feeds them", "and i would also implore you to try to help nurture that relationship", "they don't want to be in an adverse position with the town", "it makes them uncomfortable", "they don't want to be having to do battle on issues", "there was no way that they expected to be caught in the middle of those circumstances that evening they're embarrassed to have to go through this process", "it is very costly to them to have to go through this process", "they've now been out without their liquor license for five days", "and just so you could have an appreciation of what the net effect of that is to them again a small business with not big margins they've lost at a minimum of twenty one thousand in the last five days including tonight as a result of having had to return their liquor license", "it was not an easy decision for them from a financial perspective to decide to appeal but they felt that they had to", "and again they don't want to be in that position", "they don't wanna be adverse to the town", "they wanna cooperate participate and be part of the community but that we filed an appeal", "the second part of what you had indicated is we're asking that this board stay the balance of the punishment so that we have an opportunity to appeal this matter to the abcc as reasonable business people", "you can appreciate that sometimes we'll have differing opinions as to what's appropriate in the set of circumstances", "i think with our system of justice to have you have the power to hear the facts decide what the penalty is and also virtually decide what the appeal is because you impose the penalty in a quick fashion you eliminate the possibility of an effective appeal with the abcc because most of the traveling public who deals with these kinds of things knows it will take them at a minimum five to six weeks to get to it and they're usually busier than that and it takes sometimes two to three months to have the issue heard", "so there is that sense of fairness that goes along with that", "and not the least of which is you have in fact exacted a very very serious penalty on the saga hibachi steakhouse with the five days of closure the impact on their business from the regular public knowing what has happened there and the actual financial dollars lost as i had indicated", "clearly after the notice of appeal was filed one of the considerations that we had was and we suspected that there wouldn't be time nor interest to call an emergency meeting just to deal with the issue of staying the punishment", "the other alternative at that time would have been to go to court", "and i worked with the council for this board and the town", "and we had made arrangements where i would let them know what court we were going to what judge was going to be assigned", "and we had intended to be there that next day", "we decided not to do that for multiple reasons", "one huge cost but also it would have been huge cost to the town", "my clients didn't wanna do that to the town", "again hearkening back to the whole cooperation being part of the community aspect", "as indicated in the appeal documents that i filed with the abcc we weren't taking issue with the fact that they had the violations", "there's no question that those tables weren't cleared and the bar wasn't properly cleared in time", "no questions that happened", "so they were willing to step up and say yeah we deserve to be punished for that", "it was a mistake and it was an honest mistake or an innocent mistake but a mistake nonetheless they have an obligation and they understand that obligation", "so they decided that they wouldn't do that and they would wait for this board to hear what we had to say this evening", "so we are before you on that issue whether you will stay the balance of the punishment or take some other action in hopes that we might be able to resolve this", "okay a quick i guess i put on the category of clerical should this go forward to the courts what's the duration to bring it from appeal through decision of the court process are we talking weeks or months oh no if we are caused to have to go to the courthouse it would be done on an emergency basis", "everything would get filed tomorrow morning", "i would file a what's called i don't know and maybe misunderstand i wasn't clear if there's a stay to get through the court process not under the emergency situation", "okay let me be a little clearer", "there would be two aspects to it", "the court process would only come into play if you decided that you did not wish to stay the balance of the punishment", "we would then use the superior court to try to get a judge to order on an emergency basis that the punishment be stayed that would give us an opportunity to go through the balance of the process with abcc", "how long that process is they tell you you get a hearing within five to six weeks", "i don't think so i think it's probably two months but i would say that it probably fair to say that three months is the outer limit on them taking a decision and coming back to the town", "again because it's an appeal the town would be involved with that appeal as well", "okay thank you", "this isn't a public hearing so this is just an agenda item", "so any questions from the board or discussion items yes just one mark", "your clients they owned up to the violations which was nice", "the board we assessed the penalty within our guidelines", "can you tell me where you think we were arbitrary and capricious as i tried to touch on that evening", "and obviously there were a lot of things going on and i had a lot to say about probably too many issues", "i think it involves not just this situation but also the one the year prior where there was a shift in how this board decided it was at least again these are just my observations a shift in how this board decided it was going to handle liquor violations in town", "and i've been to more than a few of the meetings where those violations have come up", "i've represented a couple of few liquor license holders in response to violations received from the board", "and my observation in november of two thousand and fourteen was that there was a distinctive difference than where this client who i represented at that meeting was given a penalty very different from several other liquor license holders just the year before and it we went from a mere letter in the file to my client's being suspended for the maximum amount", "now i've been doing the practice of law for thirty one years if i could just for thirty one years", "and judges oftentimes have ranges of possibilities for what they can do in criminal cases and civil cases or whatever", "and my view is that and i think my client's view is that there has to be some recognition of what actions led to it", "if they had come in here they were a poor community member they were thumbing their nose at the board they were rude they weren't making an effort to be a good citizen", "i could see amping up the punishment to whatever the maximum is but i think in the november 9th two thousand and fourteen issue i reminded this board that the quote unquote sting operations that the police department runs by the very words of the abcc are intended to be teaching tools for liquor license holders in town not gotchas so that the town could just put the hammer down on somebody", "and i think if we were to look at it from that perspective it is a very good tool", "it can show where there are potential weaknesses okay it was a sting it was a setup and it showed a weakness", "so that's good", "the liquor license holder then a fairly knew business in town learned from the experience make changes so that doesn't happen again", "i think that was the intention of the abcc and the police department", "and coming up with that kind of a plan", "very similarly in the present circumstances it was a bizarre set of facts that just spun out of control that resulted in them violating", "and i assure you while there are suspicions on your side of the table as to whether or not it was a purposeful act on their part i've gotten to know these folks there is no way in the world there was anything purposeful that night", "i'm telling you before you even sent a notice they were already calling me saying we don't even understand what happened", "this is what we've sorted out so far", "what should we do and we started talking about it even before the notice of violation came out", "so bringing it full round to specifically answering your question", "i think when a board just all of a sudden hammers the fullest extent of the punishment they can without in my view and my client's view taking proper understanding of the set of circumstances", "i think that that's what becomes arbitrary and capricious", "and i would hope that the abcc would see it our way and say you have to leave some room here", "there are ranges of behavior and there are ranges of punishments that go along with that going back to the sting operation the board took a look at that and found that the young man that they used as an operative was so appallingly young looking that's why we went to the three days for everyone", "we have to act as judge and jury in a lot of respects to find out what was the extent of the violation and in that particular case there was nobody at the switch", "in this particular case and it was awfully nice to say yeah we were owning up to it that was to their credit", "but the thing is had the police officer not been called you have to wonder how long would it have continued well and i'll quote jenny our names are on the license as well and we're responsible to the community for making sure that the license and the rules and regulations surrounding that license are upheld and i know that you've said before that these should be a teaching moment", "how long do we have to teach well actually that goes to perhaps another point that i should've made had there been a repeat of a specific violation previously and have it come in the second time i could understand putting the hammer down more so in that circumstance", "that's why when i opened my remarks at the time of the public hearing i said this is very different from what happened previously not related at all except that it is a liquor license holder and they have an obligation but it's very different set of circumstances", "they repaired if you will the problem with the operations with regard to the sting because we haven't had any issues with regard to that since then but now we've presented with this bizarre set of circumstances", "and i'll just harken back to november of two thousand and fourteen because there was something else that this board had said that struck me and it has stayed with me and i can totally appreciate there was a level of frustration that was palpable that was coming from the board with regard to either increasing or a level of hits on these sting operations", "it's almost seemed like the liquor license holders weren't learning a lesson", "and to that extent i can understand that frustration but with all due respect i don't think the frustration with people who had failed the process previously should have resulted in a punishment that hurt these folks because they weren't part of that process", "and again that's why i think that there are ranges of penalties", "and if somebody is repeating the same violation multiple times i think that's what that range and the upper end of the range is intended for", "again just my view but having been before a lot of administrative boards and a lot of courts and so forth that's the way i think most of the world views that", "and i would ask that you folks do that", "but our regulations don't say that", "well they don't say that specifically but what they do is they give you discretion", "of course of course", "so that's where your discretion and the concept of arbitrary and capricious comes into play", "and there's a crossroads to that where there's discretion on your side if the facts and circumstances to a reasonable person suggest that it's egregious enough that you should go to the worst of the penalties", "then of course that's reasonable", "if however the circumstances and again i would implore you to accept my version of this", "but if circumstances are such that it's not that egregious and you have a range of penalties then somewhere in between is probably inappropriate place to be", "and again i don't sit on your side of the table so i'm not gonna tell you how to do your business", "it's my observations and i'm representing a client here", "but i would like to think that if i were on that side of the table and i were judging someone something in that regard that i would be able to understand that fairness aspect", "and i would say that arbitrary and capricious are acting outside of our authority and outside of our guidelines", "no that's not specific that's a term of art if you will in the legal world for purposes of an appeal on decisions like this", "arbitrary and capricious are the buzz words that the abcc knows to see that suggests to them what were the circumstances does the circumstances warrant that kind of a punishment and that's really what the arbitrary and capricious in respect to the way i wrote it the way i intend it my client's intend it and i think the abcc intends to read it is that circumstances does the punishment do those circumstances warrant that level of punishment and that's where it lies", "so i would ask you to not take any personal offense to those words because it's not meant to suggest you operate outside of the realm of what was appropriate", "my view is we completely disagree but i think i've got a clearer perspective on it", "thank you", "other members of the board yeah i'd just like to touch on a couple of things that you mentioned", "one in relation to november of two thousand and fourteen the boards change okay so people bring different views", "i think one of the alarming things was the sheer number of violations", "and i think that was a wakeup call to a lot of us that we need to act and maybe not send a message but act within the guidelines of our regulations", "and you talk about teaching moments you can learn from the mistakes of others", "i think one of the positives that came out of all that was the recreation of fox cares", "they do a great job they really do", "i see vick in the back and he's a member", "he's been one of the original members but if you participated in fox cares some of these things you would have been alerted to they invite the abcc and they did a presentation on fake ids", "they talk about best practices", "they talk about some of the problems that they have with staff they do really good work and yeah some bad things happened", "this is one of the positives that came out of it", "and i'm glad that you're gonna be a member of fox cares going forward", "and listen i understand you're contrite and you understand the mistake but we have rules and regulations that we need to uphold and we need to be clear that public safety comes first", "liquor licenses are a privilege and not a right", "and when there's violations we're gonna act accordingly", "we don't wanna do this believe me", "we wanna support our local businesses but when there's mistakes they have to be accountable for those mistakes and they have to be responsible for them", "and i understand that and then just following what you had to say about what happened in two thousand and fourteen and the board changing its perspective on that", "i'll share with you what i suggested that evening is i appreciate the fact that there was frustration with the board i live in town my business is in town i've been here more than a little bit of time", "and i share with you that same frustration because we don't want to see those problems come up", "we'd like to think that people learn", "the point of that though with regard to my clients that evening back in two thousand and fourteen was i think it's again just my opinion but i think it's a better perspective to come out after a volley of these things where you've treated the business owners the way you have treated others in the past to close that do whatever it was you're gonna do and then look in the camera and collectively say from this point forward men and women boys and girls we're going to do the following no longer will there be a letter of reprimand in your file but you will in fact if you fail one of these sting operation and i apologize i forget the actual term for those but we all know what i'm talking about", "if you fail one of these sting operations you will in fact be suspended for three days", "that is what this board is going to do from this point forward", "i thought in two thousand and fourteen that that would have been the more appropriate thing to do", "and i'm a little disappointed that we didn't have an opportunity to appeal that one to the abcc because i think that they would have shared in that perspective", "didn't work that way here we are it's two thousand and sixteen but i think it's important to understand how we got to where we are today", "some of the things that have transpired in between and maybe that makes life easier for you folks in how you conduct your business", "so i think the way we get the message out is through our rules and regulations that go along with each license on the renewal each year", "that's how we get our message", "our punishment as defined not looking into the camera like you said", "how many people really watch how many of the license holders are really sitting watching this meeting yeah but if you say it it gets reported they pay attention and i pay attention and i represent not just them but i've represented the liquor license holders", "and at that point i can have a conversation", "and i would add if you folks had said something like that and i had read it saw it heard it i would have then contacted my clients who hold liquor licenses in town and i would have scheduled some time with them to say okay there's a game change here", "no one ever intends to violate the rules but you need to understand that the penalty for doing that has just been amped up", "so whatever you were doing before if it's important to you if money's important and continuing to be able to operate your business is important then you need to revisit these issues and make sure it doesn't happen in my world that's exactly what would have happened", "so what you say from here even though there's not a lot of people here and i don't know how many people watch you on the television or watch it on the tapes or whatever the word gets out and particularly to the business owners and particularly through fox cares everyone will would know", "right through fox cares", "and i don't wanna have this go back and forth cause there's no point in that", "i think everybody knows where this is headed", "but fox cares reached out to your client in november of two thousand and fourteen they never got back to them", "they reached out on two or three other occasions and it was we're not interested or there was no desire to join", "now all of a sudden there's a desire to join and i get it they don't know what it's all about and they have their own own business to tend to and it's a commitment a meeting a quarter and some dues and everything else but it's sharing best practices with other license holders other license holders that have been through exactly what they're going through", "so it would have been to their benefit back in november of two thousand and fourteen and had they taken that opportunity they might not be sitting here today", "you may very well be right but we can't go back and undo history we're here today", "but one of the things i'll remind you because i have had a conversation about this with my clients is that the saga hibachi steakhouse but that's just a building and a sign it's people and we discussed the numbers of life related issues that had come up in between that prevented them from doing all the things that they should have done maybe with regard to that", "there is in fact some cultural and language barriers that have gotten in the way with some of this", "and now that they are involved with fox care maybe and those folks understand that there are some of those limitations as well and they have in two thousand and fourteen a fairly new business they're trying to make it work", "you don't just open a restaurant and say yay we're making lots of money it's a lot of hard work and as anybody else here knows who has had a business it's relentless", "so not by way of excuse but by way of understanding i think they knew that that's something they should have been doing there just wasn't time in life to get that done", "i won't go into any of the details but it sounded semi reasonable to me that why they hadn't had an opportunity", "but i think in large part because of what this board had to say and perhaps some of the things that i had to say afterwards they understand that that has to be a priority item because this is an important piece of their business to have a liquor license and to be able to operate that responsibly and protect it because irrespective of it being a privilege it's also a valuable asset and they don't want to waste that", "well now we've moved into the next agenda item", "so i'm gonna step it up a little bit", "chris and jenny any additional comments on this well my comment is everyone who applies for a liquor license in the town of foxborough is given rules and regulations that they have to read understand and obey", "and we have with four thousand seven hundred and forty nine other establishments that have liquor licenses", "we don't get people here all the time before us", "we only get the people who violate those rules and regulations and that's why you're here", "and i feel very comfortable with the decision made by the board of selectmen at the last meeting in regard to this violation was a very fair one", "and i don't believe that the abcc will find that it was not fair", "that's just my comment", "chris", "one quick thing mark you had mentioned that right after the december 29th hearing you were thinking about immediately appealing but then you didn't want to", "and then i heard a little while later if we decide tonight not to change anything you are going to appeal tomorrow morning", "well if you don't change anything i'm left without any other options except to go to a supreme court judge and ask for that judge to stay the punishment so that we have an opportunity to be heard at the abcc", "what happens in the case of an appeal if", "actually i didn't even ask the question cause it doesn't matter", "but i'm just saying like what if the abcc found us that the punishment was too hard they've already served five tomorrow will be six days", "by the time something hears that you could have already served eight days of a suspension", "so what happens if they say we only should have given you a five day suspension what happens well that's the downside of us waiting but again we chose to wait because they don't wanna be at issue with the town they don't wanna be costing the town expenses in the form of legal fees and so forth", "they just wanna do business and they wanna be treated fairly", "and that's why we didn't do that then but we're at a point now where we wanted to come back and have this conversation so that perhaps the board could either reconsider how it wants to handle their punishment or at least stay the punishment so we have an opportunity to flush it out because i respect all of your opinions and hopefully you respect mine and who knows who's right", "i think i am you think you are okay so we'll let somebody else call it and that's what the system is set up to do", "it's just when this punishment came out so quickly it didn't leave room for that if you will", "i mean i personally am not gonna change my mind", "we were within our guidelines it was four violations", "so everybody knows our guidelines when they every year sign that license they see what the possible penalty could be so but if i may just say one thing about yes there were four written violations but they were four ways of saying the same thing", "you didn't clear the tables in time if you're driving and you hit somebody and you cross the lines and a violation is a violation", "it's one incident but that gets identified four ways", "i appreciate that", "any other comments so we're at the crossroads now", "if there wants to be consideration for an amendment to something that was previously adopted someone would have to one make a motion two it would have to be seconded", "once it's seconded would have discussion then would vote on it", "and in order for that motion to pass we would need four out of the five selectmen to vote in the affirmative", "and if that motion was to and just to be clear it's not to reduce the number of days it's to take the remaining days and put it off to a period to be determined to let the appeal process play through the court system", "everyone understand that so do i hear a motion in the affirmative i'll make a motion to let's see hold the remaining penalty in abeyance until which time the saga steakhouse has had a chance to appeal to the abcc", "okay motion made do we have a second on that motion asking once asking twice asking three times", "not seeing a motion the motion fails to move forward", "okay thank you", "thank you counsel thank you", "i say these are never easy decisions to make", "next item we're few minutes behind but mary beth you wanted to bring forward the foxborough highway and water employee union contract for discussion what you have in your packets tonight is basically a consolidation of the previous contract and memo of agreement that you've seen before", "so this memorandum of agreement covers july 1st two thousand and fourteen through june 30th two thousand and sixteen", "it was ratified by the union and came to this board and was approved on march 3rd two thousand and fifteen", "it was funded at annual town meeting", "so what you're seeing in front of you is just we had brought you a memorandum of agreement and this is a consolidation taking the old contract and the memorandum of agreement the previous contract preceded both bill and myself", "so you've already ratified the terms of it as of last march two thousand and thirteen the union ratified you approved it and it was funded at town meeting", "but we're starting contract negotiations again with this group and everybody wanted a consolidated document", "so this incorporates the memorandum of agreement that town meeting and you have already agreed to", "we're beginning our fy17 negotiations", "we wanted a clean consolidated document", "both parties have reviewed this as well as town council has looked at it", "and we just wanted a clean for our record books consolidated document", "so that's what you have in front of you", "i'm happy to say what started negotiations were well into i think we have our third session coming up and this is sort of the template for our next set of negotiations", "yeah so is there anything that's highlighted in here that's different from last time we saw it no what happens is it incorporates the old contract the memorandum of agreement any side letters of agreements so everything is now uptodate in this document and we're starting on negotiations with", "so this was presented back to the board more as an fyi at this point", "yeah we wanted to tell you why we asked you to sign it", "okay", "so as you can see the union has signed it bill has signed it", "there's been no officially no changes there's no change it's just a consolidation but we appreciate your attention to what we know", "you had a thick packet this one", "okay comments questions concerns from the board i would just say next time check the numbering on the bottom of the pages", "it's very confusing", "goes from two to five to four to seven i think it's flipped", "there you go", "i commend you for double siding", "i think of chris just flips his paper and figure it out", "no i agree though some of the pages this is a disaster to find something", "all right in that case not seeing any further discussion", "thank you very much now we're discussing points", "thank you", "okay the special time warrant review changes", "again we keep this on for any discussion and i'd invite anyone from the audience if they had any further discussion or comments or concerns from the eight warrant articles that are going forward", "and i know some of us have been going back and forth to the advisory committee but as of now no changes since the last time and everything's on track", "the one thing i will say is that we have officially posted it on the website so anyone can see it tonight", "it's still in draft form", "officially the board will sign this document if you feel it's acceptable at your next meeting which should be on the 26th", "okay you're sure we haven't signed it already yeah i don't think we have", "in order for it to get to the we approved it went to the advisory committee but it didn't have our signatures", "okay we haven't signed yet okay very good", "and if anyone at home obviously it is on the website but toggle or click onto the advisory committee section and there all the meetings are posted and the different items are scheduled on there", "but any questions on any of the warrant articles another meeting tomorrow night", "next item actually we'll combine these at the time manager update and the assistant town manager update if you wanna run with this", "sure it's heavy meeting season actually in case everybody noticed moving on just one every night of the week it seems but the audit committee met last night first time in seven years that the committee met i guess but it was actually a very good meeting", "we had the committee reformed as of last night", "primary purposes is to start looking at formatting financial policies that we can actually use in our attempt to try and increase or improve our bond rating", "that was the one thing that certainly was indicated that they'd like to see our policies in writing", "so that committee is working on getting that done and they'll have that hopefully completed by april so in time for the next time we go out bond", "the housing trust committee met tonight for first time", "so i'm glad i know you're actually here happen", "so we actually and john attended tonight so i had the first meeting", "so we have a meeting again probably in another couple of weeks to try and get or try to get some professional assistance to help guidance in the process", "we covered a lot of ground in forty five minutes", "we did actually actually was a lot of stuff talked discussed so it was good meeting and good interest and good discussion around the table", "the cip meeting met last week that was to cover three items", "one was the water department article that's on the special town warrant", "and there was a police vehicle purchased that the chief made as well as a", "and then it was well of course the town hall project that was just on the town meeting warrant for the special town meeting in february", "so those items were discussing and were recommended by all three items were recommended for approval by the committee", "i wanna say budget meetings are around the way in our office right now", "we're also meeting with the ad comm on a regular basis", "we have another meeting scheduled for tomorrow night and i know that there's more discussion on one of the articles for town meeting for the child safety committee child safety and sexual awareness committee", "and also i wanna congratulate the fundraising committee for the flagpole so it was meeting their goal", "and i am told that the one of the last major payments was made by the partisan and patriotism so appreciative of that", "and then thursday night we have another meeting scheduled which will be for the municipal conversion meeting", "and this board is required to hold prior to the closing of the sale of the property both the fire station and the funeral home", "so at that point you'll be receiving information from the prospective buyers of the property as to what their plans are for the redevelopment of that parcel", "so that's scheduled for six hundred and thirty prior to the planning board meeting that will also be held in the same room", "yeah bill i had sent you some questions i'm i able to get answers to those questions i've given those quite that information to town council town council is actually gonna be providing those answers to me for that by tomorrow on that information", "also can you get information that the auctioneer had given to the perspective bidders exactly what he told them what they understood to be the expectations of the well yeah it's all in writing", "they actually announced it prior to the sale itself", "can we get a copy of that oh sure yeah that was read right into the record", "okay well i wasn't at the auction", "yeah yeah it was a very lengthy document", "it's actually the purchase and sale agreement which actually describes the whole process", "but can that be sent to us electronically so we can yeah i think so", "yeah i believe i can send that to you today tomorrow", "okay thank you", "yeah and then and also there was additional information on the website as well that that was just it was only we're getting zoning statements things on nature too", "so a lot of that information was disclosed and i think that's it for me for my report mary beth", "mine is brief", "contract negotiations continue", "we're trying to wrap up the police contract", "were very very close in time for the warrant article to be reviewed and for this board to look at the contract we're not there yet but we think we will be", "and we've also begun negotiations on all the next groups", "so dispatchers and dpw negotiations have started for the next fiscal year", "also recruitment efforts are underway", "we've been very very busy with we're interviewing payroll coordinators to fill the vacancy as well as public safety dispatchers right now we're in that process", "we're also recruiting for two dpw positions because one was a promotion and one was a retirement", "so those are underway as well so we've been really busy", "also personnel wage board is gonna start the meetings up again for the year on january 20th", "and that's in preparation for a warrant article at annual town meeting regarding the personnel bylaw and some new policies", "so been working on a lot of hr stuff and making some progress", "well that's going on", "yeah thank you", "great thank you both", "just two quick items touching on two things that you brought up bill the cip", "i received an email traditionally the chairman of the board of selectmen is on the cip", "and i think the email went out to john silbeck at the advisory committee and he accepted for the advisory", "i had asked just so you know i had asked jenny to represent the board of selectmen on the cip", "i'd been on it for a number of years and i just felt that it was good to get a fresh set of eyes and different perspective looking at stuff", "so i think jenny accepted you went to that meeting yes", "so we have to appoint her i believe before she votes on it correct i don't think that's been in the packet yet to appoint jenny", "no it was on hold pending she had one back in may but then it was put on hold to determine who's gonna do it if it was gonna be you or if it was gonna be jenny", "and she never got sworn in but we do have one laid out for her", "okay so if we could i guess put that in the next packet if that's not gonna hold up anything do you have any meetings within the next two that you would have to vote on something no we're all set", "all right so we'll put that on the next and we'll appoint her if the board sees fit", "yeah she was able to attend the meeting and take all the information in so", "she's good at that better than me at the cip", "and the other item just so you know i will not attend thursday's meeting i don't have a conflict but it's probably a perceived conflict because one of my offices is in the building that the owner of the fire station own", "which leaves thursday with a board of four people", "so just be cognizant of that and that vote is needed before they close", "so if it's a two two vote try to work it out so it's not a two two vote but if you have any questions or you want my insight i can send something to the board if you want my opinion on that", "bill is mr castillo gonna be at the meeting i can have him here i hadn't planned on but certainly can", "you guys knowing that i think it'd be good to have town council", "well actually its two council", "we've never been through this", "and i think it's just so that we can navigate the waters if we have to put some guidelines", "jim coppola was i was gonna say there's two councils on this is the attorney that handles the actual transaction on behalf of the town", "he does all the legal work as far as the bidding and all the things that could done at that level from castillo's office no no no he's special counsel to the treasurer collector and the finance department handling this whole thing", "so he would be the counsel to represent this because he was at the closing not the closing he was at the auction as well preparing documents", "so the question is is this town but i think the question are you referring to the question about whether town council can weigh in on the question of the bylaws or the application of this law the zoning bylaw well i think there's gonna be questions about what you can and can't do", "yeah i'm looking for guidance on the depth and breadth of municipal conversion so that we stay within bounds", "it was interesting i have spoken is special counsel really financial or is he more oh he's strictly the financial he's seeing this particular deal", "okay yeah no but i think we need not", "well the financial is nice but i think what we need is someone who can interpret the municipal conversion bylaw first", "it is interesting i will note that town halls had never seen one of these in thirty years", "that a bylaw of this nature i've never seen one", "i asked paige a few weeks ago when she said she was familiar with it", "i've never seen one", "can we get a copy of the parameters of this yeah it's in a zoning bylaws", "so you can probably click on it on your webpage", "but just as far as certain other case law that's taking place if we started heading to the boundaries we can get drawn back", "i honestly i think oh if there's any case law on this to be honest with you", "well i looked online to see i don't think there really is so we're really new territory completely this is a new one", "and also will the planning board and the asset review committee the asset review committee plans to attend as well as the planning board", "the planning board is gonna be here cause i think they're gonna be here for their meeting anyways", "they have a meeting at seven", "yeah and it's gonna be fairly good representation from the asset review committee", "okay sorry i have to miss this one", "lucky you", "i know i'm sharing i mean it's a unique process i'd like to see it", "it is a unique process", "i think it's important we just want to oh no i agree", "do the right thing by all participants", "yeah i mean look this property sat there for a long time there's a lot of i mean the eyes are on it to make sure it's done the right way", "so no problem with bringing council in and having a robust discussion", "okay next on the vehicle use policy", "and i think this is yeah if you have this it's a sixteen page policy in your packet", "i think that it's been vetted by this group a couple of times with some really good questions and edits", "it has been circulated to", "counsel has looked at this the department had grouped the operational group and users of town vehicles", "so the policy is here for your adoption", "as policies get adopted we're hoping to include them in a policy manual rather than as we go forward and change the personnel bylaw to a real bylaw and have a town hall policy manual", "this would be incorporated in that", "yeah there is a policy manual at town hall", "don't know the last time it was opened but it's there", "yeah we're one by one looking at the policies", "that's what a personnel wage board has been looking at going through it", "and we have hr counsel that's helping us with it so", "this is consistent with maya", "this is maya's template sample policy and fact i think but with our additions and changes yeah we took our old policy which is about a four pager and put it in with this", "and then we presented it to our loss control group which maya has representative on there", "and in fact i think we can once it's adopted we can submit it and get maya reward credit for doing this for updating that", "we've had the chance to unfortunately apply this past week we had an employee who had a damaged vehicle and we were able to turn to the policy and say what did we do to have how do we handle it so it's already been helpful to us", "no policy is good until you actually have to apply it and it worked so", "do you wanna make a motion to adopt yeah just one question first", "all the people that this affects that they've all seen it agree with it way", "i know i probably asked you that the last time yeah we've circulated it to the department heads to the users of town vehicles to our operations group", "in fact we've been floating this round for quite a long time", "one of the first edits we had from sharon watson on it", "so i'm just going through the file today looking at everyone's comments finance director gave his comments", "so we've been vetting it through as many groups as we can as well as personnel wage board and our loss control group", "okay i'd like to make a motion then we approve and adopt the vehicle use policy", "i'll second that", "okay motion made and seconded further discussion seeing none all those in favor of the motion", "motion carries fivezero", "thanks for all the hard work on it", "thanks very much good to check that one off", "i don't know how this happened but we're ahead by twenty minutes", "nice you better get going okay", "cause what i'm always driving", "chief o'leary is here and his gonna come to a screeching halt now", "so the constable policy chief would you like to come up to the table you're on the agenda with mary beth on this", "welcome", "okay so in our packet there's a policy of appointment of constables and in it it's somewhat colorcoded", "i think those are a lot of the changes or suggestions that we've had in the last couple meetings on this", "so the last time this was brought to the board by the chief there was some discussion on", "we had looked at this reviewed other towns policies chief put this together we met a couple of times and the board asked us to relook at some of the inconsistencies between the application and the actual policy so we've done that now and the policy statement you'll see an edit in color that the board shall appoint not less than ten people to constables and on page two the residency should be in or proximity to foxborough", "so that's now consistent throughout the entire instructions the policy document and the application", "this application and information was sent out to all our current constables that we have listed for the town", "the chief is constantly reappointed as a constable and with the exception of four people from our former list did not reapply but i have a list today i don't know if we have on the agenda view to appoint the actual constables today is that no no agenda", "no just to approve the policy", "okay so we'll have that for you next time to look at the constables", "right now we will have nine to appoint", "so if anybody out there was either a former constable and wants to get their application in or if anyone's interested we would still be able to entertain applications to present to you", "and they get approved by the chief and recommended to the board", "especially where the board will hopefully take action within the next two weeks cause some people's appointments have expired in the time period since we started discussing this fall if it could be moved on next week people still have time", "if they put an application to us that i could do the background investigation and be able to add them to fill up potential vacancy that we would have", "okay could i bother you just to could you just give a brief summary of what a constable does generally who's eligible to apply for it so the primary purpose is to serve civil notice on different residents and or businesses that are here foxborough and have a legal address here", "many of it has to do with civil litigation issues potentially divorce papers and other minor type of court orders that are result of civil action", "and the regulations which we had not had in the past we were just going on state law", "it spells out the duties in a particular nature and also limits some of the legal action that they would take", "from time to time state law does allow constables appointed in very restricted areas", "if necessary they could make an arrest but we've tried to limit that by the wording of our policy and all the time that i've been in office i think there was only one constable from some other community that actually ended up arresting somebody that was trying to flee with a car that was trying to be repossessed", "we assisted the constable but he handled bringing the person to the dedham court", "okay so if our next meeting will be on january 26th do you have that complete list maybe i'll supplement it with anyone that wants to join", "yeah we have a list that we will present you on that day", "we will if the board approves the policy tonight we'll have it on our website", "so the instructions the application the cory form anything somebody would need to apply will be on our website", "okay", "i just had a question there are two tiers of bonding", "yes there are", "and do we have a how do we keep track of the tiers that the people are in they would demonstrate to the town clerk that they have the necessary bonding in place", "they would go to a agency that does bonding and submit a fee to get a particular level and the level that they get or the nature of the paperwork they're going to serve", "and from what i have seen many of the people have the more extensive bonding level so they can serve a greater variety of papers", "but do we have like a copy of that for their file or the town clerk would manage that file", "the level of bonding could be added to a spreadsheet", "it could be we could add that to this", "mary beth are the current applicants or incumbents are they all in good standing relative to the town with payments and fees at this point we only have one with a reported that was one of the reasons for redoing", "we needed to do a reminder to these folks that in order to be appointed as a constable you needed to have a reporting process", "so that's spelled out in the new regulations and anyone you reappoint will need to complete the reporting okay so we're only looking forward and we're not looking back okay fine", "i only have on record one person filed a report of fourteen on the list", "okay so next time around i'll ask the same question", "yeah exactly you have a column for that", "if i could they're required by law to file a report this coming april for any work done by them during two thousand and fifteen", "and that would be a good way of seeing what is being done by each of the constables and the expectation that if they are doing work on a community they have an obligation to pay the town a percentage that's spelled out by the state law of the work that they've completed", "so having that one of the catalysts why we went in this direction back in april of two thousand and fourteen wasn't that law in effect as well it was and and just nobody did it", "no one complied because we didn't really spell it out in our regulations", "and i think that now that it has been spelled out i would have an expectation those that are still active constables serving papers would have to file the necessary financial report", "we'll keep that and we'll ask that later", "yeah well i'll be honest it's just a little unsettling where money's due to the town", "it was a law you would expect the constables to understand that and pay their fair share of what it did", "well they're supposed to be upstanding and a good moral character that's part of the requirement", "one thought that i have in that point though is the fact that where they do provide a state they're provided by the state report now on in april one of the things we require is that you get a copy of the state report along with a local report indicating all of the activity they had done here in foxborough", "so it'd be like an addendum to the report", "would it be out of the realm to appoint them the people that are getting reappointed to ask for that report for last year well it's a good idea well no i mean that's they're not required to you submitted until april so no no no i'm talking about the report that was due april two thousand and fourteen", "i don't think i think the requirements for this year right the two thousand they have to report the two thousand and fifteen by april of sixteen", "and if there was work done in the community there should have been a report", "although we didn't have a regulation report should have gone to the town clerk", "but that's the town regulation but doesn't the state require no but the state law requires they do the report", "did they require it in fourteen and fifteen it was state law", "it was", "in other words jim's your question is should there be a report from the calendar year fourteen that was submitted an april fifteen", "yeah if they work for the town in that calendar year to get reappointed provide the report and see where that goes", "to be honest it's just bothersome that it's a state requirement by a constable", "and regardless if we enforce it or not because it wasn't in our regulations it shouldn't be an excuse not to provide the report to the state and copy the town", "so is that reporting requirement in this policy now which is this policy needs to be tweaked again no it's there", "no it's in there under fees", "fees yeah", "okay okay good", "so where it's already in the regulation i forget was the motion made yet not yet", "so the motion we could still vote to approve this but at the next meeting when we get the list make a note that a requirement that that report has to be subject to being submitted before they get appointed or at the time of with their application or what have you", "yeah so you wanna require that they provide a copy of the report filed with the state prior to appointment", "would it be helpful that a letter goes out to the pending appointments and reappointments this week so that making sure that they have that time opportunity", "absolutely sure yeah", "by constable or by regular mail and we're not gonna serve it", "all right so oh the irony", "they may actually do all for money and why we wouldn't we collect the money from well let's try the honor system with the application and see what we get with it so", "i make a motion that we approve and adopt the new constable policy", "i'll second it", "motion made seconded further discussion seeing none all those in favor", "motion carries fivezero", "thanks chief", "thank you very much you're welcome", "okay before we go into executive session for the two december executive meeting minutes approval we have seven action items", "and you just see in your packet one of the action items the friends of the flagpole is updated tonight with the new list", "one second", "all right so article the first one is for selectman approving selectmen meeting minutes from november 3rd two thousand and fifteen december 15th two thousand and fifteen and december 29th two thousand and fifteen", "okay can we do these separately sure", "we'll start with november 3rd", "anybody have any changes tweaks and issues we'll just make the motion of this", "i'll make the motion that we approve november 3rd selectman's meeting minutes", "and i'll second that", "motion made seconded discussion on the november 3rd all good", "all those in favor motion carries fivezero", "for the thirty nine pages of notes", "that's good", "like to make a motion that we approve december 15th two thousand and fifteen board of selectman meeting minutes", "second", "motion made seconded any discussion on the december 15th notes all those in favor motion carries fivezero", "and before the motion is made i'm gonna make a recommendation to hold the december 29th meeting minutes because that has to deal with the hibachi", "i'm sorry i keep saying saga", "where it's under appeal right now", "it's lengthy that's another twenty six pages so i wanna take a second look at that", "all right that's good", "take a motion that we hold the december 29th just take no action", "yeah okay item two", "all right council on aging i'd like to make a motion we approve the appointment of janet o'neill to fulfill the vivienne fitz term expiring may 1st two thousand and sixteen", "and i'll second that and thank you janet for volunteering", "very much so", "motion made seconded further discussion seeing none all those in favor motion carries fivezero", "item three animal control", "i'd make a motion that we accept the gift donation of the amount of one hundred and seventy six from eric kieran for adoption fee", "i'll second that", "motion made and seconded further discussion seeing none all those in favor motion carries fivezero", "all right number four agricultural commission make a motion that we reappoint rosemary smith to the agricultural commission expiring on one hundred and twenty one thousand four hundred and eighteen", "i'll second that thank you rosemary", "very much so motion made seconded further discussion seeing none all those in favor motion carries fivezero", "council on aging i make a motion we approve a gift donation of fifty in memory of renee carter for use with council on aging programs from mr and mrs david lowe", "and i'll second that with gratitude", "again thank you motion made seconded further discussion on the acceptance all those in favor motion carries fivezero", "all right number six friends of the flagpole", "that's the one that was updated", "yep i have it right here", "i'd like to make a motion that we approve the remaining gifts and i'm gonna read the gifts", "albert jones sozio fifty foxborough jaycees five hundred kevin and dwayne weidenfeld one hundred kevin and diane sorry roseberry smith twenty five", "william and kathleen havertz fifty sandra and donald norton ten", "sixteen rock hill street nineteen centennial drive twenty", "eugene and alice cummings one hundred", "ten", "ten i'm sorry earl and sandra brown one hundred", "phillip and tracy costa twenty five lbp solutions one thousand historical commission donation jar fourteen and thirty one cents", "wepay gofundme one hundred and forty another gofundme for forty", "colby's cleaner donation jar seven thousand one hundred and twenty five spoodles donation jar seven and sixty seven cents and the partners in patriotism fund bringing us over the top for twelve thousand", "so the grand total of all donations to date into the town is forty one thousand nine hundred and forty and ninety cents", "and i'll second that and i just wanted to thank everyone that's participated", "it's quite a list and it's quite a community project", "and i can't wait to see the new flagpole", "so exciting we've got a meeting scheduled this week right yeah thursday morning we're meeting with the dpw director roger hill with one of the vendors out of rhode island to look at the pole look at the base trying to get quotes for approval construction and then have everything ready in may for memorial day", "and because of the winter if it doesn't work it's definitely founder's day but we really shooting for memorial day to have that ceremony there in turn and see the new flagpole", "sure can i just put a shout out to the facilities folks who actually did a good job of actually fixing all the lighting around the common", "so everything's operational once again and it was a couple of lights that were out for a long time and then they managed to get those all fixed", "and so i know one person who's particularly happy to see all those lights back on", "and i myself i'm happy to join in praise of that work that's really come out nice", "yeah i mean jack of lesbourne i wanna say pet project but this was more than his pet project this his soul out there and i know he was concerned about the lights and that whole process and he puts his heart into this and the forty one thousand nine hundred and forty raise by the community plus the donations and municipals", "it's a nice partnership to have", "and i think a lot of people and i was just joking with chris before when this started i was doubtful that whole sentiment would catch on and i was told that it would and it did", "oh yeah you were doubtful that we would raise it in the short of a time", "there's a lot going on and you ask people for money without the passion behind it it was gonna be hard to do but it's a great committee and exciting project", "looking at that list too so many different walks of life donated to this businesses and individuals welltodo individuals and people that can only afford a little", "and it's a great testament to what the flag means and what it means in foxborough", "is it to see the seven donation jar and then the twelve thousand donation", "of course every one of them are just as important", "and while we appreciate the major donations we also know that those little ones were just as equally important in sharing and the excitement one of that new i know one of the committee members had their kids at walgreens on a table and for a rainy day", "and look at the jcs that gave five hundred and that came from greeting cards that they had made up", "so if you wanted to buy greeting cards with the common and things around the town i think it was ten a box to make up five hundred", "a lot of work that went into that so", "mr chairman may i make a suggestion that the group that puts together the town report consider using the photo of the thank you sign with the flag as the cover of the annual report the picture of the we did it", "yeah we did it", "because that really symbolizes the community effort", "well there were two things actually where we were struggling with on the decision was the soldier came back this year too", "and that was a nice picture that we thought we would but i think we're gonna do a story on that", "jack actually agreed to write that story on that for the inside of the other report", "well maybe you could do both or something", "yeah well jack's involved in both of them so maybe", "yeah", "that's a good suggestion", "cause i thought that was when i went around that common the first time i saw it i thought hat was just a fabulous photo op", "yeah it came out well", "so that's a good thought", "okay so we go to our thank you so that's it for the motion made seconded we didn't vote on that one", "oh okay motion made seconded further discussion all those in favor of the acceptance thank you very much", "motion carries fivezero", "all right number seven new england patriots charitable foundation i'd like to make a motion that we approve two one day all alcohol licenses on january 16th two thousand and sixteen from two hundred pm to four hundred and thirty five pm at the empower field house hospitality suite at patriots game", "and the second one is for january 24th two thousand and sixteen from one thousand two hundred and thirty to three hundred and five the empower field house hospitality suite contingent of the patriots making the afc championship game", "i'll second that", "okay motion made seconded further discussion on the two licenses requests seeing none all those in favor motion carries fivezero and good luck this weekend with saturday afternoon game", "the last thing you should say go patriots", "yeah it's gonna be a miserable rainy whole day but hopefully we play well in the bad weather from what i've seen in the past", "all right that concludes the regular items we'll close the hearing all those in favor of going into executive session raise your hand", "hold on we just oh i'm sorry sure", "sure yep no i think if you could just introduce yourself for the record", "well of course i'll start with a meeting", "barry duna foxboro reporter", "i just want to clarify a few things before we get out", "first the gentlemen i apologize for being late", "the snow i nearly what's the word spun out", "so i was going slowly so everyone be careful", "the gentleman who did public comment what was his name graham silliman", "graham silliman and then he is the manager or owner of what tavolinos", "tavolinos yeah and i think he's also involved in foxborough cares is as a leader there or just his partner town hall patron as the vice president", "okay", "excellent so that'd be graham sullivan you say silliman", "silliman silliman excellent", "and did i just understand that correctly that you guys approve the final funds for the foxborough flagpole so now it's all set and i should give jack a call tomorrow yeah we had a fifty thousand estimate", "so a certain percentage was donated or contributed by the town dpw or the labor and some of the materials around the plaza the majority of the funds were privately donated", "so what we did tonight was we've had a tabulation every meeting and it's come up to forty one thousand", "so we formally accepted the donations", "so once we accept them then they go into the town fund for the flagpole", "excellent so you don't need to take any more donations now you could still donate barry if you'd like", "yeah the estimate is an estimate", "obviously if we go over then we'll need it but i'm pretty comfortable that we should have it and never wanna ask for more than what we need", "so you have estimated fifty and you have forty one now correct", "and so that's enough of the money that you're comfortable meeting with a vendor to get the job yeah the installation and fixing the plaza and the flower planting bed and all that stuff around it", "okay just wanted to clarify", "yeah that's about every or did anybody else speak in the public comment period before i came in no it was just that one gentlemen", "okay well thank you very much", "okay", "drive safe", "anyone else okay all those in favor of going into executive session", "roll call", "yes", "yes", "yes", "yes", "jenny and chairman says yes", "so we'll see you in two weeks and conclude"], "name": ["BOS2016Jan12/BOS2016Jan12/BOS2016Jan12_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "BOS2016Jan12/BOS2016Jan12/BOS2016Jan12_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "BOS2016Jan12/BOS2016Jan12/BOS2016Jan12_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "BOS2016Jan12/BOS2016Jan12/BOS2016Jan12_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "BOS2016Jan12/BOS2016Jan12/BOS2016Jan12_DOT_flac_00004.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "BelmontSchoolsNOW_JimDavis_040416-CL19.flac", "identifier": "BelmontSchoolsNOWJimDavis040416CL19", "text_document_id": "BelmontSchoolsNOW_JimDavis_040416-CL19.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [2370, 1050, 6480, 11180, 4200, 7880, 20660, 9620, 4930, 8500, 8570, 6410, 8720, 13240, 8440, 13170, 4160, 3730, 9510, 20040, 7763, 12130, 6110, 9200, 3860, 4130, 12130, 10380, 5770, 16080, 13260, 3980, 6130, 18030, 14490, 14750, 19070, 13830, 3787, 1323, 1280, 13700, 12610, 12200, 19610, 20510, 5540, 5860, 7020, 6110, 3150, 5590, 9643, 3480, 2447, 6883, 3690, 1300, 11520, 7610, 3620, 14373, 8800, 5300, 3500, 4140, 8510, 3080, 9630, 9790, 2990, 3870, 7080, 11950, 13229, 5000, 17930, 4830, 4510, 2150, 5000, 7390, 7270, 9910, 4090, 12360, 23775, 2598, 8307, 2410, 6284, 7736, 6650, 13750, 5330, 5082, 3268, 15960, 1800, 4160, 1042, 14378, 2888, 9232, 12844, 12636, 7870, 10963, 6690, 5860, 15870, 4525, 4305, 8650, 3620, 10820, 11330, 7840, 7900, 6410, 4460, 12680, 17210, 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"first i'd like to update everyone in the audience with the important issues and events going on in the belmont public schools and after that i will introduce jim davis and we'll have a great discussion about high school athletics", "first i wanna update everyone on the chenery principal screening committee search", "as you know kristen st george will not be back at the middle school next year and the committee has been formed to hire a new principal at the chenery", "we have a team of people that encompass two teachers three administrators three parents as well as the sitting principal to screen all the applicants who submitted their interest in belmont and will be having interviews soon and also be hosting parent nights and staff afternoons for them to get to know the finalists", "we will keep you posted on all this information so you too can attend the time for parents and the community members to interview and ask questions of our finalist candidates", "that will take place on april 11th and april 13th at the chenery middle school", "i also want to give you an update on the calendar conversation that was held at the school committee meeting over the last two meetings in april and in march", "the school committee did make a decision to have a calendar that kept with it's start time of the first wednesday in september as it has in the past", "also a calendar that recognizes a no school day for next year's national election", "due to the fact that safety issues are a concern as over sixteen thousand voters revolve through the three schools that hold voting precincts", "additionally the school committee decided in a very very deep conversation after reviewing the data and listening to many many conversations at the school committee table with the community to not recognize holidays as part of their school calendar", "the result is that there will be school in yom kippur next year in the sixteen seventeen school year and there will be a full day of school on good friday", "the decision by the school committee was not taken lightly and i believe as i sat at the table it was based on the true respect that we want to be able to hold for all of the different groups and families that we have and that represent the belmont community", "if you have any questions about the calendar please feel free to call the superintendents office", "and the new calendar is posted on our belmont public school website", "i lastly would like to thank at this time laurie slap who is the chairperson of the belmont school committee for all of her hard work over the last six years as a school committee member", "laurie slap is someone who prides herself on doing best by students and teachers at the belmont public schools and has invested hours and hours over the course of six years to do work on the school committee on the warren committee on the capital committee as well as her work on the policy committee throughout her time in tenure on the school committee", "so thank you very much to laurie slap and we look forward to the new members coming on the school committee when the election takes place next week in early april", "lastly i was very fortunate to be able to speak at a pto event at the wellington elementary school last week and the big topic of discussion from that group was space in the increase in enrollment", "this has been a theme that we've been addressing all year with shortterm planning and longterm planning for the district", "what i talked about at that meeting was the fact that we do look to add eleven classroom spaces in the two thousand and sixteen seventeen school year", "we will do so at the elementary level by reallocating some space at the burbank", "this will be the last square footage of space that we have at the elementary level", "and we feel that if we have an increase in class size at any of the grades catered for we will be able to add two classrooms to cut down on class size across the district at our elementary level", "at the middle school we will be looking to add six modular classrooms that will be procured by the town hopefully a town meeting this may at the cost of about fourteen million", "i presented this information along with jerry boyle director of facilities to the capital committee last week", "and we were very thankful to the school committee the capital committee the warren committee and the board of selectmen all of whom are working hard to create a financing package that will best suit the town to support this very very needed cause of extra space that is needed at the chenery", "and lastly at our high school as you know we are currently utilizing three modular spaces behind the high school and we will expand to move into three more spaces utilizing all the space behind the middle the high school for modular space", "this is a lot of work for our staff and our facilities and our teachers", "we truly look forward to this summer preparing those spaces to get ready for school in september of two thousand and sixteen", "and by the time you watch this episode we will have had our first meeting of the belmont high school building project committee which will meet on april 4th which is tonight the day of this filming to discuss how we will approach the work of building a new high school in belmont", "belmont has been awarded an eligibility period status to get materials into the msba to form a committee to create information so they can review our package to move forward with a new high school in belmont", "we look forward to the building committee and the work that they will do over the next few years to ensure that belmont has an outstanding and longstanding high school that will serve the community for many years to come so more to come on the high school building project", "so i'd like to say today that i'm here with jim davis the director of athletics who's with me coming back from his miaa conference in the cape and another conference in connecticut where jim was named the president's award of merit by the massachusetts secondary school athletic directors", "this is an outstanding achievement that jim achieved within the state of his athletic director peers and is also being named as the representative to the regional new england new york new jersey post for the national association", "so jim congratulations well done and thank you very much for being here", "thanks thanks for having me", "so tell me about that process", "tell me who awarded you this distinction and how does it work to be in the national association so it's a unique honor in the sense that it's selected by my peers", "so the my peers here in the commonwealth saw the work that i've done and they were able to put forth my name and be recognized as a president's award of merit", "each one of the sections in the state have an opportunity to do that pick an outstanding athletic administrator from their district and they were all recognized this past week down at our state associations conference", "the opportunity to serve on the national at the national level on the national board is a distinct process in the sense that our state every twenty four years gets the opportunity to present a candidate to go on to serve across the country on the board of directors", "and so initially started with an interview process here in massachusetts that was selected and then it went onto the section meeting which was held two weeks ago in connecticut where my candidacy was reviewed by the members all the new england states as well as new york and new jersey and they gave a stamp of approval", "so the final step will be my application to the national and it will be approved", "and in december of two thousand and sixteen for my term to start in december of two thousand and seventeen", "very exciting very well deserved and on behalf of the belmont public schools in the community thank you for all the work you do", "and it's great to see it recognized not only throughout the state and throughout the league but also nationally", "so this is great for the belmont public schools", "so they're recognizing you because of all the good work we do and you do with coaches who do great work with students", "so can you tell me a little bit about how the athletic school year has gone fall season winter season and how we're preparing now for the spring season sure", "it's really kind of ironic that we're in taping today", "it's supposed to be a start of our spring sports", "our boys lacrosse team had a chance to get out on the field and play their first game on saturday", "and everybody else was slated open up today but we've got snow coming down", "we've got snow coming down outside", "so we'll deal with that what mother nature dishes out we'll work on rescheduling and getting the spring season going but we've had a tremendous year thus far", "if we look back in the fall we had league championships in field hockey and golf to kind of get the ball rolling", "those teams did very very well in the state tournament", "and then we had our girls swim team who had a tough sessional meet but had a lot of kids place really high to only go on the next week to the state championship and finished just a few points out of first place", "we had three young ladies that were recognized as all scholastics two on the swim team and one on our girls field hockey team this fall", "and we had a host of other programs that went on to compete at the state level", "our girls crosscountry team did a tremendous job this year", "they fought really hard and got into the state championship meet", "it's not an easy thing to do out of the number of teams and competitors but they represented our school and our community very very well", "and that momentum just rolled into the winter", "you know we had our girls hockey team come back on board here in belmont after being a coop for the last several years with watertown", "and we had strong numbers for the program which was really great to see two new hockey coaches in both the girls and the boys program", "and they both did a phenomenal job", "we had skiers qualify for the state ski championship", "we had two young ladies and one young man go and represent belmont high school at the state championship for ski", "and you think about it where we're located geographically not a lot of snow particularly this winter yet we had three of the top kids in our league go on and compete at the state level and represent belmont very very well", "i think probably the marquee programs that got probably the most airtime and the most press this winter were both our boys and girls basketball teams both had great runs in the tournament", "our boys team was action packed each time out", "they had a couple of milestones this year not only winning the league but also matt kerans who is our senior point guard broke the school record scoring a thousand points and also set the all time scoring record with one thousand three hundred and twenty two points over his four year career", "so great kudos to matt and all the hard work that he's done", "and our girl's basketball team we call them the road warriors", "they made it into the tournament", "they were a middle level c team and they met all comers", "their first game they had to travel up to marblehead not an easy place to get to but had a really tough start", "it was kind of rocky at the beginning but then they came away and they held that team to five points in the second half and one running away", "and then next up we had to travel up to the north shore up to newbury port and the girls kept the magic running again and we were successful there", "and they advanced to the semifinals which is where we had been last year", "and they took on a really highly seated team in arlington catholic and our girls just played tremendous team authentic team defense very tenacious and they were victorious there", "and then we faced our cross town rivals in watertown and the north finals gave it all that we could and just came up a little bit short but the girls and the fans that came out to support them and represent them i mean one thing i can say about the community of belmont when our teams advanced to the state tournament everybody comes out not only a student body but the community and it's a great thing to see and witness", "it was that it happened to be at that game it was a great game", "the students were there in full force the parents were there and there were a lot of parents of non high school students that just came out to see the girls play phenomenal", "tell me what is getting ready for fall", "and then after that i wanted to i mean what's getting ready for spring and after that i want to talk about all the good work that our boosters and all of our friends have groups", "sure so we are getting geared up as i said earlier you know our boys lacrosse program has already stepped out", "they had their first contest this past saturday and all of our other teams are getting ready to roll", "i anticipate great seasons out of all of them of particular interest our tennis programs are always compete and very strong middlesex league but they always seem to find a way to advance to the state tournament", "i expect our baseball program as well as our softball program to come out of the gate", "i know our softball players this is a seasoned team they're looking for a breakout season this year", "and i anticipate that they'll do very very well", "our girls track program who last year captured the league championship which hadn't been captured in a very long time return a lot of those kids back and so i expect great things from them as well as our boys track program", "i anticipate they'll do very very well", "and then both of our lacrosse programs will be in the hunt", "they have great numbers", "you know those are some of the programs that down the road we could be looking at expanding that program adding another level whether it be a freshmen level program or a some of the schools are offering multi levels at the jv level", "so it's really really exciting good stuff", "and the spring season is always one of my favorite seasons because you can get outside after being indoors all winter long it's a chance to get outside", "and if anybody has the opportunity to come by belmont high school any afternoon you'll see hundreds of student athletes out there on all the different playing fields and surfaces doing what they love and that's being involved in our program", "you know jim we every year you give us information about how many students are participating as we start to prepare the budget and get ready for the next fiscal year and the enrollment's going up in the district", "but more importantly the enrollment of student athletes who are participating in afterschool activities in sports is huge", "and i would actually extend that in arturo assadourian who's your counterpart also seeing a rise in numbers of the students that are taking part in the music and performing arts after the school day", "tell me how important you feel it is for students to be involved in the cocurricular and extracurricular activities and what that means to a high school experience", "yeah for a lot of kids this is their opportunity to connect to the school", "and we try to find as many different avenues for that to take place whether it's through interscholastic athletics whether it's through a club or activity or one of the fine and performing arts programs that take place it's just a it's a way for our students to be connected", "but it's also an opportunity for the students to see teachers in a different light", "many of our coaches are teachers within the system", "and when that happens it just creates a great opportunity for both the teacher and the student to connect outside of the classroom", "and i would echo the fact that our numbers continue to rise", "i think it's indicative of our community and the passion that our students have for not only interscholastic athletics but also for the fine and performing arts and the different activities that take place", "and and i will mention that aside from the interscholastic athletic programs that we have taking place this spring we have three actual clubs that are athletic based", "the first being our ultimate frisbee which is a coed program mark wagner one of the parents in the community is the advisor for that", "and so we've been able to secure them some space in the town for them to compete as well as have some contests at belmont high school", "and then we have two rugby programs both a boys and a girls program that have been strong", "our girls program was established last year", "we really had some girls playing on a coed program for the last several years but last year was kind of the stepping off point for getting a critical mass to have that take place and we have it again in this year", "and on the boys side they have great strong numbers and that program it's been in existence for i think over seven years we've won some championships along those lines and both of those programs are due to come online through the mia as recognized sports next spring", "so that's an exciting time", "so if we looked at the numbers per se and participation whether it's through interscholastic athletics fine or performing arts or the clubs or activities we're up in the high eighties to low ninety of at least having students involved in at least one of those types of activities which is really outstanding", "i couldn't agree more that the success in your academics in a lot of ways can be measured by the success outside the classroom connecting to school connecting to coaches club advisors whether it be the drama teacher or the ultimate frisbee advisor all of that brings the students connected to school which then brings them connected to the classroom", "we have a lot of community members that help out", "the sports programs and all the friends of groups really highlighted last year by the amount of money raised by the community to do the majority of the field house floor for our volleyball and boys and girls basketball seasons and indoor track which will be then completed by the capital funds this summer", "tell me how important and how valuable the parents are and the friends of groups and the boosters are to the programming at belmont high", "yeah they're the kind of the unsung heroes i would say", "they're critically important in the sense of not only supporting their own student athlete but the everybody else within those programs from doing team dinners to hosting end of the season dinners and such they're just they're the backbone of the program and such", "they also make things happen that we can't get through our regular operating budget and they're able to provide some financial resources to acquire whether it's equipment or special items that the programs are looking to add", "it's just been immense", "and you spoke about the fact that the boosters have kicked in and helped out for example with the floor project at belmont high school last year they've been instrumental and refurbishing the fitness center at bhs as well as doing yeoman's work over at the whitefield house", "they continue to look for projects to get involved with and team with and they certainly have the resources within the community the network to make those things happen", "they have a couple of things coming up that if i could mention please do this coming sunday on the 10th of april is the first annual becca pizzi family fun run", "and the boosters are there behind that getting that up and running no pun intended", "and then they have a their annual patriots charity basketball game which is going to take place on monday may 16th", "so they've got a couple of significant events that help bring in dollars to their coffer so that they can do more for our student athletes here at bhs", "well jim thank you very much", "it's great to hear all the success that we're having on the fields on the courts in the classroom the success of the teams", "i truly appreciate your leadership within the community and within the school", "and you are responsible also for the middle school sports program we should note and also for the wellness your our director of wellness which is a huge part of our sel work in the belmont public schools recently", "and i appreciate your work on that front as well", "so we'd like to end this meeting in session of belmont schools now with some great footage of the boys and girls varsity playoff run that took place this year as well as a great highlight film of the other sports and our student athletes performing for belmont high school", "thank you very much and have a great day", "just to forward to jenny call", "jenny call gets a bucket for two over to tan back to christofori over to call", "call goes up four three out to christofori", "christofori goes up the middle over to nikolaidis nikolaidis to tan for three fourteen fifteen", "we got ourselves a ball game", "five minutes to play", "three for carly christofori", "winklaar puts it up for two and draws the foul to jenny call", "call to winklaar winklaar will go in she goes up for two and she gets it", "nikolaidis to christofori to call", "call goes up for three and she gets to three christofori goes in back out to call call goes for three that's her second three for jenny call", "belmont retains possession christofori for three and it's good", "winklaar to call", "call goes in call goes up and it's good for two", "christofori ten seconds on the shortcut", "christofori goes up for three", "there's three for christofori", "so winklaar winklaar going there's two by sarah stewart", "to call call goes up no good", "nickolaidis goes up for two and she is fouled", "call to tan tan for three and it's good for three belmont up by one forty thirty nine", "irini makes her first forty five forty five tie ballgame", "she makes her second", "belmont is now off by one forty seven forty eight less than a minute to play", "belmont will get possession with thirty nine seconds to play", "up buy one", "there is a bucket for becca ten", "there is the game your belmont marauders win the game", "forty nine to forty seven very close game very winklaar bakes", "hit's it out to call call down the lane around and in eight seven winklaar for three bang belmont goes up ten eight crossed to stewart inside to tan tan drives and puts it up with her left hand nice shot", "for another cutter", "ball in the corner to tan", "tan puts up a three pointer it's good and ties the ballgame at twenty a piece", "cross ahead to stewart and she misses puts it up a second time and it's good", "belmont goes up twenty two twenty", "three point attempt no good", "rebound by winklaar", "winklaar puts it up it is good at the buzzer", "christofori driving to the hoop hit's it up and it's good", "that's the next one up it's around no good rebound by the cougars and the ball game is over belmont wins and goes to the finals against the winner of the triton watertown game", "welcome to carl j torres gymnasium here at woburn memorial high school for tonight's division two north final mass madness miaa tournament matchups between the belmont marauders and their rivals the watertown raiders", "half court picks the dribble up now to christofori back to call good look at it three it's up and it's good", "shama lama ding dong otis day and the knights", "do you mind if we dance with your dates big three", "g in this room a lot of anxiety for these kids christofori with the line drive three and it falls", "good ball movement there ball protection", "as she tries to take the baseline strong take it's up and one count it and that's just the senior knowing no help was coming", "and it's excuse me nikolaidis", "nikolaidis back to christofori", "christofori now using that offhand to get space there's the long shot and it's good they're going to give it a long two for senior captain sarah stewart", "christofori handling up top using the screen back she goes to call call will take the stewart screen around", "good look at a shot there it's a log too and rattles it home", "that's just quality offense", "love her coming off that screen by stewart loved what i saw there", "and the long pass to murphy was knocked away by call she'll flip it to christofori what a nifty move twinkle toes all the way to the hoop to pass outside", "unafraid to pull the trigger there was christofori there's winklaar with the rainbow three it's the rainbow connection and it's a tie ball game with one nice little pass to giorgio back to stuart stuart shoots and belmont leads the game thirty one to twenty nine", "scrambling here's call has to get it in she does to christofori", "antonel is guarding her christofori's by her lefthand up and good", "just like you said kim just like antonell is guarding her as we see samari winklaar getting up and making moves to the table nifty spin by christofori", "and it's good", "for good christophori finds call", "call uses the screen puts up at three and it's good", "forty six to forty one the score timeout bell press call to a jumpstart for christofori christofori shoots in and out no good", "watertown up with it that could be the ball game", "and time ticks down", "ladies and gentlemen the watertown raiders are the d two north girls basketball champions", "congratulations to them", "congratulations to the belmont marauders for a hard fought basketball game forty six forty one the final score", "welcome to winter field house for miaa tournament basketball featuring the hometown belmont marauders against the visiting brighton bengals", "two fifty four to go on the first period", "karen's from the corner", "bingo", "bingo bingo three points", "good balls on the floor", "nice play by ramsey ramsey the dirt dog they're going to find bartle's in the corner in this shot", "and it is silky smooth", "here's wagner backing them down up top to karen's long shots good then he's with karen's and giving him the ball karen's with the drive", "there's the paul pierce look", "bartel's up top binds karen's karen's for three shot's good forty one thirty two belmont the grand man strikes again", "uses the wagner stream long pass to ramsey skips to shaughnessy shaughnessy to ramsey ramsey to bartels here's the movement up with shaughnessy and it's good and one", "bartles working kicks it out to ramsey", "ramsey up top to karens karens will stop and pop and it's good", "yes he's on fire", "karens to ramsey ramsey to bartles bartles inside to shaughnessy shaughnessy and it's good they are really trying to shoot from the perimeter now", "skip pass to ramsey ramsey with an open look and it's good switches it up with bartels inside to shaughnessy shaughnessy up with it", "that's your game lucky sixty five sixty three as we close on two minutes", "here's karens nice feed there from wagner cross over from karens right to the rack", "a great game by the brighton bengals welldeserved win seventy two to six tough way to end the season for the belmont marauders", "four years ago a bunch of people saying oh there's this guy at belmont he's a freshman course number four boys so good you gotta go see him", "so i went and saw him and he was excellent", "and i don't do a whole lot of like recruiting you know but i asked him to come be a part of my team and he's like no thank you i already have a team", "and i was like oh wow he's got like you know he's loyal and he was good", "you know it may have irked me a little bit but i said wow good for him", "so i stayed connected to him and he called me later in the fall and said i think your program would actually be really good for me", "so i said well i appreciate that you stayed loyal but i think it would be too so come on over", "and matt was one of the easiest guys to coach for four years because he's just the best", "he does what you ask him to do", "and he is a basketball kid", "and i know everyone here is but i get to coach a lot of guys and some girls now too that you can really tell when it matters to somebody in a profound way", "and it's not everything that matt is", "i think he's a wonderful kid a very well rounded young man but it's part about how he will be identified and being that kind of person myself my whole life i just stayed in basketball all my life i guess", "but it was great to see it and for it to be a guy from my home town who wore my number and scored way more points than me it was a source of pride when you can really get to know him then to develop our relationship has been it's what coaching is about to me and i know that i'll be connected with him for decades and decades to come", "so when coach pritchard asked me to come here and present him with his banner for becoming the alltime leading scorer at belmont high i was honored to do it myself every guy with a banner up there playing they're remarkable players", "you belong right beside them i'm proud of you and looking forward to your future and i care about you a lot buddy so come on up here let me give you this banner"], "name": ["BelmontSchoolsNOWJimDavis040416CL19/BelmontSchoolsNOWJimDavis040416CL19/BelmontSchoolsNOW_JimDavis_040416-CL19_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "BelmontSchoolsNOWJimDavis040416CL19/BelmontSchoolsNOWJimDavis040416CL19/BelmontSchoolsNOW_JimDavis_040416-CL19_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "BelmontSchoolsNOWJimDavis040416CL19/BelmontSchoolsNOWJimDavis040416CL19/BelmontSchoolsNOW_JimDavis_040416-CL19_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "BelmontSchoolsNOWJimDavis040416CL19/BelmontSchoolsNOWJimDavis040416CL19/BelmontSchoolsNOW_JimDavis_040416-CL19_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "BelmontSchoolsNOWJimDavis040416CL19/BelmontSchoolsNOWJimDavis040416CL19/BelmontSchoolsNOW_JimDavis_040416-CL19_DOT_flac_00004.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "CC_IEM_01-25-2016.flac", "identifier": "CCIEM01252016", "text_document_id": "CC_IEM_01-25-2016.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [13422, 4307, 2770, 4300, 4110, 4580, 4507, 2503, 1110, 930, 1103, 927, 833, 1486, 833, 1808, 3450, 4000, 4563, 847, 1280, 2250, 1000, 950, 8540, 6953, 1770, 6564, 3810, 9840, 7230, 6920, 4500, 1610, 4540, 3880, 3260, 833, 1567, 1020, 3200, 3110, 853, 2750, 7230, 5460, 3980, 12230, 7030, 5670, 9130, 15130, 1380, 2010, 5763, 4520, 12100, 3700, 9610, 4990, 3420, 4420, 2900, 1250, 833, 1867, 5000, 2280, 3080, 2460, 1040, 2220, 12513, 1847, 10640, 11530, 2110, 10214, 883, 2040, 3800, 19060, 18630, 13520, 10025, 11387, 16120, 17300, 5080, 4630, 1510, 4810, 833, 1682, 2855, 4643, 13820, 1930, 2590, 2296, 9447, 4140, 1720, 27820, 5670, 1573, 4430, 5490, 6530, 5010, 1893, 11547, 2283, 2553, 2799, 1996, 6512, 12473, 24393, 9985, 8453, 17900, 10340, 8290, 8230, 4242, 6218, 5000, 6863, 2110, 15210, 12140, 16510, 5813, 2120, 6430, 7000, 16963, 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1363, 2097, 833, 2007, 6820, 833, 14170, 3121, 8829, 4037, 1000, 8929, 15430, 3030, 3724, 10626, 2813, 943, 914, 1439, 833, 16400, 6090, 1680, 1850, 6570, 2150, 1080, 1620, 13050, 10550, 4380, 14590, 2567, 4343, 9043, 13080, 1430, 12470, 5674, 4023, 1721, 1683, 3700, 4633, 4070, 2353, 25597, 1200, 1150, 5610, 7390, 1570, 2970, 10033, 2970, 3410, 2785], "label": ["let the world stop turning let the sun stop burning let them tell me love aloha", "the meeting of the infrastructure and environmental management committee shall now come to order", "today is january 25th two thousand and sixteen", "and the time is one hundred and thirty two around", "please silence all cell phones and any noise making devices", "and joining us here for the meeting i am elle cochran the chair", "vice chair of the committee is riki hokama and we have aloha", "and we have ms gladys baisa", "good afternoon chair", "good afternoon", "ms stacy crivello", "good afternoon chair", "aloha", "and mr don guzman", "good afternoon chair", "good afternoon", "chair of the council mike white is excused", "and mr bob carroll will be joining us very shortly", "from the administration we have director of public works director david goode", "good afternoon", "aloha", "ms rochelle thompson of corporation council", "good afternoon chair", "good afternoon", "and from our staff we have hardworking committee secretary raina yap handing out some paperwork to us", "and legislative analysts we have scott jensen and sitting in is steve seeley", "aloha and welcome", "we've checked in with our district offices mr jensen says everyone's present there", "so at this time let me mention we have two agenda items members", "iem twelve and this is in regards to prohibiting parking on portions of kahawai street in wailuku", "iem forty eight authorizing the installation of utility poles for the kahoma village project in lahaina", "and at this time anyone here in the gallery wanting to sign up for testimony please sign up at the front desk", "and it looks like we have one person signed up to testify", "and you'll have three minutes", "and please stick to one of the items on the agenda today", "and mr jensen call the first testifier please", "oh members without objections i shall now open the floor for testimony", "no objections", "thank you very much", "mr jensen", "madam chair the first testifier is carrie yoshizawa", "she'll be testifying on iem item twelve", "thank you", "good afternoon chair and county council members", "my name is carrie yoshizawa and i'm here before you asking for your support and approval to prohibit parking on the iao stream side of kahawai street", "more specifically it's the portion of kahawai street which is located between market street and makua street", "my request is being submitted to protect the health safety and welfare of the public", "i testified before you over two years ago relating to the same matter bringing to your attention my concerns over the dangerous conditions on kahawai street due to numerous vehicles being parked on the street and along the iao stream", "now that construction has been completed at habitat for humanity and the tenants have moved in the problems in kahawai street is constant", "personal vehicles large oversized vehicles company vans and buses can be found parked throughout the day", "the operators of these larger vehicles tend to park half of their vehicle or more on the sidewalk which in turns restricts access for those walking on kahawai street", "with the lane of travel in kahawai street being so narrow and limited and now the sidewalk blocked it potentially puts those individuals in a situation where they may have to go and walk on the busy narrow roadway because these parked vehicles are restricting complete and open access to the sidewalks", "kahawai street is busy", "i've seen it grown over the years", "over the past several years and more recently i've had many close calls on that roadway with my kids in the car", "i've seen cars nearly exchanging side view mirrors because that's how close they're getting", "at times i found that traffic backs up onto the busy market street because those vehicles are attempting to turn left onto kahawai street can't make that left because there's already two or three vehicles waiting for the car coming in the opposite direction to come through", "there just isn't enough room for those vehicles", "i would like to thank council member mike victorino as he came out with an analyst for onsite inspection of the area in question and had met with the residents on this safety issue", "they truly appreciate and remember his efforts to help them regarding their safety concerns", "thank you for allowing me to provide public testimony before you today", "and again i ask for your support to prohibit parking on kahawai street along the iao stream", "i am hear and available to answer any questions you may have", "thank you", "thank you", "and thank you for your time to testify", "members any need for clarification of the testifier seeing none", "thank you again for your time", "are there any other testifiers in the gallery", "madam chair no one is currently signed up", "thank you mr jensen", "we'll check in with the district offices", "in hana ms lono anyone there to testify ms lono hana are we on good afternoon chair this is joan lono in hana and there is no one waiting to testify", "thank you ms lono", "on lanai ms fernandez anyone there to testify good afternoon chair this is denise fernandez on lanai and there is no one waiting to testify", "thank you ms fernandez and on molokai ms alkhan anyone there to testify good afternoon chair this is ella alkhan on molokai and there is no one here waiting to testify", "thank you ladies for being there", "at this time members seeing no one here in the gallery to further testimony or in district offices with no objections i shall now close public testimony", "thank you very much", "and ladies thank you for being there", "so members let's jump into our first item", "i e m twelve and this is parking on kahawai street wailuku and this is county communication one thousand three hundred and thirty from council member mike victorino who referred this matter prohibiting parking on kahawai street from market to makua lane in wailuku", "and the correspondence is dated january 19th two thousand and sixteen from michael p victorino presiding office in protempor transmitting proposal entitled a bill for an ordinance amending the traffic code of the county of maui to prohibit parking on portions of kahawai street in wailuku maui hawaii", "and the purpose of this proposed bill is to prohibit parking on the south side of kahawai street between market street and makua street where indicated by signs to eliminate unsafe traffic conditions", "and we can pass this bill on first reading with or without revisions and also consider filing of this county communication", "members the transmittal dated twenty we have a transmittal dated january 12th also from director of public works", "and the director attaches a public works commission recommendation from december 16th two thousand and fifteen in support of the bill and transmittal further comments on some of the nonsubstantive housekeeping matters included in the proposed bill", "and i as the testifier mentioned i would like to thank council member victorino for his persistence in getting this bill before this committee as well as legislative analyst jordan molina and his efforts in drafting this proposed bill", "so members with that i'll turn the floor over to director good", "but before that let me recognize council member bob carroll has joined us", "aloha mr carol", "okay and now director good the floor is yours", "okay thank you chair", "good afternoon good afternoon", "chair members david good here at director department of public works", "and i wanna thank our members of the public for persevering on this", "our staff worked with actually a former staff jordan molina for the committee councilman victorino to identify some areas where parking could be allowed along kahawai between market and makua", "and they've identified a couple areas", "one is and these areas are tight", "and if you've been up in kahawai you know there's not much room", "so we were shooting for a minimum of nine foot travel lanes and then squeezing out where we can squeeze in seven feet wide of parking", "so if it met that criteria that would be okay for that street", "and we identified a couple areas", "so as you're heading malcolm on the lefthand side along the stream basically more or less fronting the new habitat for humanity project there's room there for i'm going to say four to six cars and then going farther malka as the road and the stream start to diverge there's a kind of a triangular area in there where there's again four to six seven cars perhaps can fit in that area", "and that way it would still leave us nine foot travel lanes for twoway traffic room for folks to park", "so that's what was presented", "this was worked on internally then presented the public works commission that recommended approval", "the bill also contains a lot of housekeeping changes to our no parking ordinance", "the ordinance includes all the districts of maui where parking is prohibited in certain manners", "and so there's a lot of housekeeping that was done in that bill", "so we're supportive of that", "we did note a couple other items that could be amended and it's something we could actually do later chair if the committee desires or something we try to squeeze in at this time", "and that's noted on my communication", "and that summarizes where we're at", "thank you director and members yes", "do you have a open for discussion", "chart or map for us chair that visually shows all the verbal recommendations", "madame chair does the back of the handout explained that director good yeah this was on the january 12th communications from our department it was just put on the desk so you might not have picked it up yet", "no the final back page has a diagram and unfortunately member victorino was not here with us today to go over this but i'm sure we're well aware that he is in very much support of this measure at this time", "does everyone have the drawing we'll take a brief recess to the call of the chair", "aloha will the infrastructure and environmental management committee please reconvene and thank you for that brief recess", "and would you like to go through a little bit basically why we recessed and we can go through it in a little more detail but real quickly in the entire ordinance there's more than just the kahawai street that we're discussing", "so corporation council had gone through to basically do clean up language i guess so to speak make it more clear concise", "for example an area in hana it used to say one hundred and forty feet fronting helene hall", "now that one hundred and forty feet has been taken out to just say prohibited parking in front of helene hall the distance in the front of helene hall", "so don't need the wordiness of the particular footage", "it's saying the same thing but just in a more simpler layman's language", "and it goes through the entire ordinance doing that", "making sure the correct hawaiian spelling of streets are corrected", "east north and things of that nature", "so really i guess corporation council felt that it was a lot of more housekeeping and didn't have to be put into motions and made into votes taken on the floor to do these adjustments but we can go through it line by line if need be", "at this time though i'll open the floor up for discussion in regards to the kahawai discussion here with director good", "and i think we whoever has been in my committee before recalls discussing this in the past couple of years as testifier has said we've been really trying to figure out how this is all going to blend in well with the community and the use of this road", "so floor is now open for discussion and questions if you have from our department", "mr guzman thank you chair", "and i also would like to thank mr victorino for proposing the changes along with the department", "my question is i believe mr good mentioned that there were sections of the street that could have parking", "is that also indicated in the amended ordinance or is that something that needs to come in later director thank you chair", "so memember guzman you're talking about kahawai yes yes", "yeah so the way we've worded it is to say the no parking where prohibited by signs", "that way it'll allow parking in between those signs", "okay", "so we'll have the arrow saying no parking this way but it'll allow okay parking in the other direction", "okay", "thank you and i guess my other questions would be for the other sections", "can i ask that question sure go ahead", "on a number twenty five as amended it's deleting the school hours and just amending it to school days", "so does that mean that anytime it's a school day the entire day is off limits for parking it appears in the original ordinance it gave hours where in you you can't park between certain hours and now you're just saying school days", "so i just would like to have that clarified is that when it's a school day the entire day and night is prohibited by parking", "sorry mr guzman what item is this oh it would be number as amended twenty five in the original is number twenty seven", "because i'm looking at one that says during school days as prohibited by signs yes correct", "so they take off the hours but it says the prohibited by signs", "so obviously the signs will dictate when the prohibitions occur as the sign will state put up by public works", "yeah and my question is well i guess does this sign does it mean that when it's a school day monday through friday the entire day and night are prohibited because in the original you're actually have hours set between seven hundred am and eight hundred am and between one hundred and thirty and two hundred and thirty are prohibited parking times", "so are the signs will they have specific times on them because you're deleting that part of the designation of it", "thank you", "director did you have a comment or corporation counsel the reason for that new language thank you chair my understanding is that the signs do have the times on them and that it's easier to respond to the change in school day such as wednesdays are early out but i believe that the time changed slightly", "so it's easier to respond to change the sign to reflect the hours that the students are going to be in the vicinity or when it's only one way", "and that kind of thing", "can i have a follow up question on sure mr guzman yes just maybe for corporation counsel", "how will enforcement be conducted if it's not indicated in the ordinance on the times", "and then if you have a very vague sign how is notice going to be given to the general public on when not to park there the signs would have to be specific as to the times", "okay", "but you're saying if it changes and school hours do change they're not consistent throughout three years two years whatever it may be that would mean that we would have to go back and change the signs", "i assume we would need to change the signs if it was a very large deviation if it fell between the hours then maybe we wouldn't change it if it was fifteen minutes within the time period that was needed for the safety of the kids", "i would assume that it would be less expensive for us to change an ordinance than it would be to change all the signs if the department of education ever changed their hours of operation", "i don't know because i think a couple of years ago pomakai had their days early release on wednesdays", "and then now i believe on friday", "so it changes you never know", "i just wanted to see if there's a way to work that out without causing too much problems", "go ahead corporation council you'd have to change if you wanted the specific times in the ordinance you'd also have to reflect it on the signs", "you'd have to do both", "versus if there's a change like you said at one school one day if you have in the ordinance that at school days as on the posted signs then you had changed the times on the signs", "yes are you okay mr guzman kind of getting it or not really okay", "yes mr hokama", "quickly chair", "i can be in support of the requests regarding the kahawai street in happy valley", "i understand that area well and so i can be right to air on a pedestrian safety and a resident safety versus vehicular convenience", "regarding the other things such as what mr guzman brought up", "i liked the specificity of hours in the ordinance", "and i've been around long enough that somebody's gonna say hey there was no sign when i was there", "why are you tagging me why are you doing this reliance on signage i rather rely on law", "and so i rather retain the language as is in the current code thank you", "thank you mr hokama", "memembers any discussion as i understand that change i guess the determination with the sign versus what's in the language the sign is going to it's stating during school days school hours but here are the hours on these signs in front of the school", "these are the hours that were prohibiting parking", "and i know for me in lahaina areas where we know you're not supposed to park in certain places it makes the most sense but until we had put up a sign the police officers could not cite these cars", "so that which was what the department told my office", "so that is why i had to call their public works to go and put up tow away zone signs no parking from here to corner signs or whatever the case may be", "and that was what i so for me i know that i'm told signs need to go up in order for people of enforcement to cite", "is how i've been told by department in lahaina anyways", "so but i understand memembers i had to ask the question if we were going off topic but we're not because i know the intent of today's meeting is prohibiting parking on kahawai street", "and it seems like we're all good about that part of it", "then we go into the ordinance and it lists every other district in this entire county", "and then this is where mr molina and i believe mr hopper though had worked on this and signed off on it at the time too", "so he is unfortunately not here but ms rochelle thompson is picking that up and thinking a lot of housekeeping type items", "so members we can make that call though if we want to leave that part in by all means we have that right", "so yes mr hokama", "i would just have you consider chair since i assume there's more of a consensus i'm happy to make the appropriate motions to move up kahawai street consideration", "and if we need more work on the socalled housekeeping approach that we use another meeting to work on the remaining concerns", "but i'm happy to have initial concern why are we here to move forward to the council process", "okay", "mr jensen", "yes madam chair hearing the consensus of the members one appropriate which is to be in modify the recommendation to just handle the insertion of that new item labeled in this proposed bill as item forty three and limit any nonsubstantive changes to just the appropriate numbering changes", "and just as this item is labeled parking on kahawai street filed this item and then let housekeeping changes in a separate bill be proposed at a future time", "okay very good", "thank you", "director yeah all good sounding good", "okay sure yeah very good mr hakama", "i'm happy to make the motion to implement that", "second", "okay", "all right second it's been moved by mr hokama and seconded by mr guzman and any further discussion seeing none all those in one question yes mr hokama is your staff recommending other communications also as part of the main motion at this time it wasn't necessarily a recommendation just a comment but as the item is specific to parking on kahawai street it appears to then have a secondary bill coming with housekeeping changes islandwide that would perhaps be more appropriate for a separate communication", "okay", "and then filing of the appropriate communications chair okay as part of the motion", "okay and filing of communication", "all right members any further discussion needed at this point seeing none all those in favor say aye", "aye any opposed no opposed", "motion carries with six ayes one excused and zero no's", "okay", "and we'll be bringing up the rest of this discussion on another item and work on that", "thank you very much members", "and next item is authorizing the installation of utility poles for the kahoma village project in lahaina iem forty eight and this is county communication fifteen thousand three hundred and three from director of public works transmitting a proposed resolution entitled resolution granting permission to place utility poles along a public highway for kahoma village project", "and the purpose of this proposed resolution is to authorize the installation of ten utility poles by stanford card development llc", "for the kahoma village project", "the ten utility poles to be installed will replace eight existing poles", "and will exceed the height of the existing poles by more than five feet", "and at this point i shall turn the floor over to public works director good for some discussion", "thank you chair", "first of all i did a handout today this eleven by seventeen site plan showing where the new poles would be along front street", "as you may recall kahoma village came in for a 201h approval a year year and a half ago", "they're finalizing their improvement package and designs", "and going through that process they worked with valley electric and their electrical consultant to move the poles from where they currently are inward towards the project", "in doing that and accounting for the new driveways the other pole heights along this area of front street existing utilities on the polls et cetera", "it was determined that they would need a couple extra poles plus relocating the eight inward", "in fact they'll be located in a road widening lot that's currently gonna move them into their property which is going to be dedicated back to us", "so the question came to us is do they need council approval or not and so the ordinance wasn't really clear on this particular case but we thought it best that i certainly call it best that we come to council with it because we are adding a couple poles and they are certainly higher even though they are going to private property which will become public property", "so anyway again because of the spacing related to the driveways poles that are across the street that they need to feed to et cetera as determined that they needed a couple extra polls", "my understanding is the pole height will match that a little farther north on the other side of the stream", "so as you go down past safeway it's the same height as those polls", "this just happens to be an older section i was in in front of vacant land", "and if you have any very technical questions the project engineering electrical consultants are here from ecm", "okay thank you director and members this is the company who is installing the poles director or your department", "no they're the companies electrical designers", "so oh okay", "they worked with valley electric to come up with the spacing plan", "and i'm sure they tried to minimize number of polls because polls are money so in order to facilitate the project and these other needs that's what they upped the minimum required", "and valley electric approved it", "okay", "members would you like the resource people to come down for some questions i think mr good can answer", "okay", "yes mr hokama i just want to know", "so all the poles being part of the request director all is street light pole and power poles or just power poles well i think what they're going to do is they'll mount the streetlights on the pole", "so the notes here that they have", "so are we going to have more lighting then along front street is that a good assumption on our part", "i believe so but i think that's when i need the electrical consultants to oh okay respond to maybe it's fine we can have the consultant respond to those questions chair please", "okay gentlemen would you like to come and join us down here for some questions on i guess lighting on the polls", "yeah you can come to the podium thank you", "so director i guess undergrounding was never asked", "undergrounding of utilities", "i believe they received an exemption in the 201h for the undergrounding oh okay", "cause it's costly", "i know it adds cost to the project", "but this portion of the code where it talked about either adding poles or adding heights was not a requested exemption at the time", "probably because they didn't know at that time", "okay thank you", "and thank you gentlemen if you can just introduce yourselves and tell us who you represent", "mark rickard with ecm incorporated we're the electrical consultants for this project", "aloha", "gerald kuda the same", "thank you", "okay did you hear the question or mr hokama would you like to repeat yeah so gentlemen tell us with this request you have what ten eleven poles all of them will be a power poles with street lights attached to it not all of them", "most of the street lights would be on poles that are fronting intersections", "there's not much out there now so it probably would be more lighting if that's what you're asking but it's not as if we're putting lights on all ten poles", "okay okay", "i know for some lighting means security so some viewed as a good thing", "it does but we also get objections from homeowners like across the street", "that's why yeah", "my thing is with the lighting scheduled with this request do you feel it will bring more intensity of lighting you know we do have a street lighting ordinance and the shooting requirements those kinds of things for night skies quality", "so can you give us how you're approaching is this", "is just to maintain the existing illumination or you trying to bring better clarity so there's a stronger white light presence so easier detection of colors and negative factors not necessarily", "the light out there now is limited", "the lights we'd be adding on the utility poles like i said would be for county standard and at intersections not necessarily light the whole road and area", "the lights used will be meco standard because it is county street", "so in that area be one hundred and fifty watt i believe hps", "their normal full cutoff cobraheads", "and then the spacing we just making a summary the spacing between the poles is what the utility is recommending to you as the consultant to the project", "correct", "okay thank you very much chair", "you're welcome mr hokama", "memembers any further questions yes mr guzman", "oh thank you chair", "i just want to follow up on the line of questioning with mr hokama", "on the lighting poles that according to the map it looks like there's three over here but it's pointing to a circle and an x", "is the circle the electrical pole and the other one is the lighting pole there's an x and circle i don't know if you have a copy of the map", "this says relocated power pole increased pole height and add streetlight", "so are these the approximate locations that the streetlights will that's a separate pole for the streetlight no the streetlight would be on the meco utility poles", "okay so then what is the x and the circle so every time there's a box that says pole height and street light it points to two a circle and an x", "i believe it's pointing to the pole it's replacing", "oh okay so the x is the replacement the removal", "right right", "so the red line is the old line that's been removed", "okay", "and the black line behind it", "well there's a property line is in black too but behind that would be the poles the utility poles", "okay", "so then i guess the black line that is pointing to those one two those three areas are where the streetlights will be located correct", "okay thank you", "thank you mr guzman members any further questions of the gentleman here see none", "gentlemen thank you thank you for being here and taking your time", "thank you", "and if you look at that top photo on the handout from director good this area is very dark", "it's unlit in the evenings and it'll definitely make it a lot safer mr hokama with the extra lighting coming in and the polls those polls have been there forever", "and they're kind of in the way", "oh i'm sorry chair yeah i just have another question that popped up", "the new poles that are coming up the new material that they're going to be using is what are they going to replace it with wood again or wood yes", "it looks like wood their nodding their head yes it's the same", "yes wood", "wood oh okay", "yeah thank you", "thanks", "and i've had comments because the polls the existing polls are kind of in the sidewalk and they kind of one of them actually goes out onto the asphalt of the roadway and that one in particular just to share a real quick short story my brother ran into it", "and then he's like what why did you drive into it and the boy goes why did things stay in the way he's like he wasn't wrong", "the poll is wrong it's in the road", "so okay okay", "but so yes it will be everyone will be happy to move the post out of the roadways", "chair there's a good chance your brother owns that pole", "no or he insurance company", "he doesn't want it", "so members i think this is a good added infrastructure for this area of town which is definitely been neglected for a long time", "and i know this project has its pros and cons from this community but overall it is a 201h and is pushing forward", "and currently unfortunately it is at a standstill due to some water issues", "but other than that it looks like mr carr is moving forward with whatever infrastructure he can put forward at this time in order to make it happen when water permits and whatever else he needs to address", "did you have any further yes director good", "yeah ms thompson here noted something we probably should have seen", "in the handout that i provided actually talks about eight relocated poles and three new poles for a total of eleven and about the resume mentions ten", "so i looked at the ecm folks up here is eleven the better number to use eleven if we go with the higher number it only ends up being ten were covered", "as well so", "chair i'd like to note that okay so it's actually to install eleven new utility poles no no no", "is that correct ms thompson it's eight and three right on the front street", "eight existing oh it looks like it yeah", "yeah so it'd be eight relocate and three new", "eight relocating and three new", "okay and so we'll make note of that in the new resolution", "okay good good eye ms thompson", "all right members do we have further discussion", "your recommendation please thank you", "i will entertain a motion to recommend adoption of the proposed resolution with i guess changes amendments in the utility count entitled resolution granting permission to place utility poles along a public highway for the kahoma village project and incorporating any nonsubstantive revisions and filing of county communication fifteen thousand three hundred and three", "so moved chair", "second", "thank you it's been moved by mr hokama and seconded by councilman guzman", "and at this time any need for discussion on the motion seeing none all those in favor say aye", "aye", "any opposed no opposed", "motion passes with seven six aye's one excused and one excused sorry", "and with that motion passes", "members that looks like we have completed our agenda today", "so this meeting is adjourned"], "name": 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16977, 5231, 2649, 3090, 3330, 2210, 4320, 2650, 32613, 1730, 2350, 1682, 11577, 4820, 22740, 5190, 2140, 27250, 7800, 7880, 7537, 1837, 2394, 833, 9995, 9730, 1880, 1003, 18227, 10373, 2760, 6720, 12980, 2790, 2850, 2933, 1073, 1600, 1840, 3290, 1960, 6830, 2970, 2590, 1471, 880, 1237], "label": ["thank you all for coming", "we are recording this", "so if anyone would like it to remain private after the recording's finished let me know at the end of this event", "and we'll make sure not to make it public online but the idea would be that we would share this recording online afterwards", "so people who couldn't make it could see it after", "hello welcome", "we have name tags scattered here", "you can feel free to write your name your preferred gender pronoun if you like", "and what else housekeeping there is bathroom down that bathroom's down that hallway", "there's some water fountains", "the ladies bathroom is open but i understand that that might not be the case for the whole event", "they might lock them other", "in that case there's bathrooms downstairs somewhere", "i'm not sure exactly", "yeah", "thank you two to share your friends with the cctv venue and recording and all sorts of stuff", "thank you yes", "and also to say for those of you who know me that i am i am not here in official burlington telecom capacity today", "i am here as abby tycoki so", "anyone who has things they want to discuss about any sales related things i'm happy to stay after and and hear that but this is something separate", "so thank you all for being here", "thanks abby", "and thank you for helping me connect with all these folks", "okay", "so momentarily i would like to to do a round of introductions and hear where you're all coming from what brought you here", "to give some context for this particular event i'll do an introduction of myself and this particular event", "and then we'll jump into some stuff that i prepared to look over and then get to some activity where we're brainstorming about particular questions and topics related to digital inclusion", "so my name's julia vallera", "i'm relatively new to the area", "i moved here about a year and a half ago a little less than that", "so i i'm really excited and inspired by the energy and the people that i've been meeting since i've been here", "i've had great conversations about internet related issues", "a few of them being related to digital inclusion web literacy in the area", "i'm really excited by the initiatives and the services and the the various projects that i'm learning about since i came here", "so i'm here as someone who is very passionate about the topic of digital inclusion", "i've been working on that topic and web literacy for the last six years", "and i moved here from new york city", "and then in addition to that i've been working at in the area of media and arts for over fifteen years", "probably closer to seventeen now", "so i really i'm kind of at this intersection between digital inclusion technology art design and i dabble in all of those things and often they overlap", "so i'm here just to meet everyone and really dig in more with all of your expertise in the room", "and i've been managing a lot of local and global projects as well the work i work at mozilla foundation right now and before that i was working with a lot of different nonprofits in new york city", "running events and doing different types of trainings for professionals teachers young people collaborating on lots of projects with fellow artists and designers", "so i'm just i'm very excited about the idea of collaboration", "and that's what brings me here", "this particular event i'm hoping is is the first of many more", "so we had a previous event during innovation week that drew a lot of interested people on the topic of internet health and lots of issues that tie into that", "and this is the kind of continued conversation of that event", "but i think drilling down into the digital inclusion piece of that which we're gonna do today is really a good start to thinking about what we want to do to move forward and with all the people in the room how we can leverage that in in continuing this conversation", "and then just the last thing is that it's a flexible agenda", "so so this is i'm very much interested in hearing the expertise that you're bringing here tonight", "and so i've i've kind of created an outline and an agenda and have topical questions to to get to but at the same time like i want to hear from you and and feel free to you know surface questions or thoughts or any relevant examples as we move on throughout the event tonight", "so with that said just briefly this is what we're we'll be going through we're gonna do introductions", "i'm gonna go through some slides that cover some information related to local initiatives and and statistics", "and then we're gonna do a group activity that i'll talk more in detail about and then i really want to take a good amount of time like ten minutes or so at the end to have reflections", "so we'll have some time to maybe give feedback on this event what we could do better next time what we need to include and things like that", "okay so now i'd like to know about you all", "if we could go around the room and do our name preferred gender pronoun if you prefer to do that and what brought you here today where you're from", "and i added your favorite winter activity here for selfish reasons", "i'm very curious to know since i'm new to the area what all of you like to get into during the winter months", "yeah and and please try to keep it short just so we there's a lot of people here so we can you know get through it all", "so maybe no more than a minute each would be preferable", "all right", "so does any side of the room or corner want to start let's maybe go this way starting in this corner here", "okay", "okay sounds good", "well i didn't want to know about i heard of ruins in telecom and that's what i'm interested in", "as you know we just had the the whole sale of that and everything involved with that", "and so this kinda got my attention", "i'm not particularly interested in the internet", "i never really learnt it", "and i frankly don't like it very much", "and i find it very difficult because it seems to change all the time", "and unless you had somebody sitting right next to you telling you what's happening you're just out of it", "thank you", "and my i'm barbara winbroff", "and i'd say to describe myself that i'm a community activist here", "great", "in burlington", "thanks for coming", "oh and what's your favorite winter activity avoiding snow", "okay well noted", "okay next", "i'm dennis moynihan", "i'm the executive director for btv ignite", "and i'm here because digital inclusion is one of the things that we're very interested in", "btv ignites's our mission is to position burlington to thrive in a 21st century digital economy and digital inclusion making sure we're inclusive", "we have web literacy it's a huge part of that", "and my favorite winter activity probably involves something that comes with a court condition", "maybe steven in the back and then jumped back then", "all right stephen barraclough i run burlington telecom", "what brought me here today is that we're in a a very changing world", "and i think it's critically important to me and many people that somewhere like burlington actually becomes a an expression of what you can achieve in an engaged community on the front on the on digital literacy and digital inclusion", "now what can we do that actually brings the best of providing equal opportunity to everyone and actually have burlington be an example of that my favorite winter activity used to be skiing", "as i got older my favorite winter activity became became planning summer", "good ones thank you", "i'm carolyn bates i'm from burlington", "i've been a resident here since one thousand nine hundred and seventy three", "i came today because some people from burlington telecom and katie teal which i remember suggested that i come", "and i have been an activist since way back in the early 90s when we were trying to put dog parks in the city", "so anything that seems to go across who i am or what i believe in i like to you know well anyway just like to get things going right and well and like backwards", "and so i hope that the internet and net inclusion and net neutrality all this somehow i could help with that", "and winter well let's see", "i like walking on the ice along the lake to see all those summer cabins that i can't see it with someone", "oh that's a good idea", "but you have to be sure the ice is cold", "oh yeah", "right thank you welcome", "so i'm alan matson", "i have been very involved with the keeping the local cooperative that had put a proposal forward for beats telecom", "mhm", "i think we're trying to figure out next steps", "and i also know that shae got us involved to help sponsor a bit i think through reds and democracy to help out with you in this evening", "and like i said so i'm here partly filling the purpo personally i would for the cooperative of what next steps might be", "and i live in vermont because i grew up in minnesota and i love winters it's hard to pick a favorite", "but keeping on carolyn's team i also like walking along the ice close to shore", "but usually i need to have about ten to fifteen holes drilled with my tip ups down in ice fishing so", "ooh cool thank you welcome", "my name is dan a recent burlington president", "about two weeks ago here", "i worked remotely with harvard's berkman klein center for internet society doing research on internet content controls and censorship", "i also just recently got back from a a year long travel fellowship on the topic of internet infrastructure censorship and surveillance around the world", "and so i'm here to see what kind of initiatives are already in place what kind of needs need to be addressed", "and see if there's any room for volunteering and getting involved", "i'm from florida so there's not a lot of difference between winter and the rest of the seasons but i'll take any excuse for a hot dog", "thank you welcome", "oh let's just get over here and then we'll bounce back", "my name is paul sumner i'm a communications coordinator for the city of winooski", "i have this tweet actually very appropriately it's what brought me here", "and technically i've got to say a lot of stuff based on the part we do try and communicate", "i mean sort of say and i'd say right now my favorite winter activity is helping our community member's understand the winter", "mmm our community is the winter park vans", "the parking vans the parking vans in when you see the winter parking vans", "yes yeah", "that's my favorite activity", "hm on the computer my computer you know just let people know to show a response", "thank you we have someone skyped in", "is he there he turned up his video he's there", "yeah so sean oh there he is", "sean can you hear me yep", "you wanna introduce yourself shanghai with abby at telecom", "yeah i'm excited to be part of this", "i'm semisnowed in up in enosburg", "so this is something that i wanna be a part of to kind of expand digital inclusive digital literacy outside of geneva county as well", "and that my favorite winter activity is definitely skiing", "i think it's specifically move to vermont just to ski so", "good to see everybody", "thank you", "alright and then so we'll bounce over here", "hi st philips i'm a remote employee for google", "i grew up in vermont and got here about a year ago", "and i'm here cause julia sent me a message after i looked up an article", "a meeting about net neutrality and and my favorite winter activity is going ice skating with my two girls very important", "okay thanks for coming", "maybe we'll do zigzag", "so we'll go straight back and then around", "i'm l wagoner i'm a member of kapiti local", "and i'm here for the digital inclusion", "i think it's incredibly important", "and i agree with stephen that we have an opportunity here to create something that that the whole country can take a look at and learn from", "and i hope we can pull that off", "i've been here for i don't know since the early 90s", "and my job is helping people with their computers", "so my favorite winter activity i think is shoveling snow", "because it gives me a great opportunity to get fit stay fit and get something accomplished at the same time", "not that i don't like cross country skiing and stuff like that but i especially like snow shoveling", "that's great thank you", "that's very funny more on that later", "so my my name is kit andrews and i've been back here in vermont since one thousand nine hundred and eighty four", "and i'm a member of kbtl coop", "and what brings me here tonight is i really value the kbtl coop community", "and like to spend time with kbtl coop people", "i'm not quite as internet illiterate and phobic as barbara is but i'm pretty illiterate and not deeply interested in that stuff", "so one of my favorite winter activities is snow shoveling", "i had no idea someone else was going to say that", "you're sitting right next to each other", "i know perfectly positioned", "now a favorite activity i'm inviting everybody over tomorrow", "yeah", "a favorite activity around the holidays is defined a messiah singalong", "and there's one tonight in the new north end", "so i'm gonna be leaving here early so i can go sing them aside", "oh wow nice", "thanks for coming", "we'll go right next to you in the back", "i know", "i'm godsram i live in burlington", "in burlington cohousing", "and i'm here because this seems to be an issue that abby was really concerned about and i thought well if she's concerned and interested in this maybe it's something i should find out about so i don't know much about it", "so that's why i'm here", "and my favorite winter activity when i can do it is cross country skiing", "okay thanks for coming", "my name's matt crock", "i've been i spent a number of years in my twenties doing kind of frontline work doing computer literacy as a social worker with people who've been recently housed after having being homeless", "so kind of i've had my fingers in that world and my other affinities are a member of the laboratory b hackerspace", "and i'm generally involved in as you know the coop movement soldier on many things of abtl ate a lot of my time over the last five years but i'm really sort of interested in seeing what what things the that kind of our community can pull together that are both kind of ethically designed and nonextractive but also very very involved in the platform cooperativism movement", "so curious to see what people bring to the table", "thanks for coming", "i'm andy crawford i work for cctv", "which runs a bunch of different programs", "one of them is john seventeen three hundred and seventeen", "he will i work there as andy as a tech director", "yeah sure", "we run a bunch of programs at cctv channel seventeen", "we have a statewide nonprofit organization that helps you find the best deal planning or common good vermont into that", "and then we have we also operate a small openstack cloud attached to the burlington home network", "so i'm interested in access to resources digital resources access to digital resources for everything from civic data projects through small scale entrepreneurial projects with a focus on localism hyperlocal engagement", "mostly interested in the policies of the small and large scale structural internet so", "thanks", "i'm david lansky i've lived in burlington twenty some years i've been i'm on the board of kbt local keep it local", "i've been i'm the new member to the port", "so it's only been about a year and i've been very actively involved", "i'm here to join the conversation in one of the places i'm hoping we're going", "if kbt all had managed to find what would we do with it and how much of that can we do even though kpl puzzle", "and that's figuring out those things we can act on gives us some direction", "and one of my favorite winter activities is dancing", "thanks for coming", "i'm barbara delfi", "i have lived in burlington for a long time", "i live with don who's next door to me there", "and i'm interested in where where we think we might be going", "i feel pretty confident about you know technology and my favorite winter activity is probably sledding", "mmm thanks for coming", "i'll go dad and i'll do you go no you go", "i'm laurenglenn davitian i work at cctv", "the center for media democracy", "we've been interested in digital inclusion for many years i would say since one thousand nine hundred and ninety when we started the old north end community technology center", "and my favorite winter activity is shoveling", "there's three", "thank you for coming", "my name is solvay and i live in old north end of burlington", "i've been there since one thousand nine hundred and ninety one", "and i'm here because i'm interested in and i have a lot of concerns about use of the internet and people not understanding some of the the risks of things that are going on commercialization and data profiling and manipulation and filtering", "and so i'm very interested in trying to educate people to understand some of those factors that that the cool factor about apps", "it sort of distracts people from really recognizing what's going on", "and so i'm now thinking about ways that may end inclusion part of it is part of it", "everybody understanding options for use of the internet safety but ways to deal with potentially having to try to anonymize things so that you can actually use the internet without having to be profiled and monitored and tracked and filtered which i've had serious concern about and helping people understand what programming is about and how you are being programmed if you do not understand the programming that is behind everything that's going on", "and my favorite activity i mean i like shoveling too which i just came from before i came here but i i like walking and snowshoeing and cross country skiing and ice skating", "thanks for coming", "my name's james lockridge", "i'm from king street a couple blocks over and i direct big heavy world which is a volunteer run nonprofit that supports local music", "and for years for close to twenty one years now we've used emergent technology to support our local music community", "so i've been a community builder there as a candidate for city council more than three in burlington", "i have a very keen personal interest in inclusion of all time", "and for winter activities i i enjoy walking around downtown when it's snowing and just seeing this and just living in a beautiful place", "but my favorite of all and this is a bit of an echo is shoveling what the road cloud gives me", "i like the triumph of that", "thank you thanks for coming", "hello i'm jessica bright", "i'm president of", "some of my work has been around trying to keep the civic cloud running and just generally promoting technology and the community", "i imagine i'm probably one of the few people with an actual networking degree in the room if not the only one maybe there's someone else", "so i do know a lot about the internet and technology", "if you bring that to the table and i endeavor to do as much work towards that towards really freedom of the internet and what i would say is internet works", "in my role as president of the lab i kind of feel that part of it is that everyone has a network and the inner network is a network of networks", "and really what you're buying when you're buying an isp is the ability to connect to other people's networks", "and if people don't understand that on a fundamental level i don't i don't think we explained it very well", "my day job is at cctv but i think that sometimes takes me away from my work like many people's jobs but i think the internet helps you get your work done", "winter sport or winter activity", "i'm probably gonna say video games like sims where you got a lot of blue skies and cups with like seasonal not seen blue skies but like it yeah", "nice thanks for coming", "i'm very mary danko", "i'm the director of the fletcher free library", "the library has a long tradition of digital inclusion and providing internet service to the community", "so we're always very interested in this conversation", "absolutely", "particularly i'm interested here in burlington we have this incredible internet service access to everyone but not everyone is getting it", "so i'm really interested in trying to find hard data on what are the barriers why people are not getting connected and what we can do to help them okay what do you like to do in winter mary oh in perfect conditions cross country skiing", "can't be sticky can't be too cold", "thanks for coming", "so i'm dodeci bomba", "i work for the printer for library", "i am one of the people around the tech center", "so we ideally like a busy day with people who want to access the internet and people who want some app with the computers", "so i think this is a good thing to know about more about whats people need if we can give or add some experience about what we are dealing with everyday by participating in this kind of meeting", "so for the winter activity i guess i'm new in the snow", "and i don't have like a particular winter activity", "that's okay you get lots of ideas", "stay warm", "i'm going to get i'm gonna let abby comeback", "i'm back just in time", "abby so this is henry", "he's three and super into digital inclusion", "i went pee in the potty", "and he went pee in the potty", "oh good job henry", "and i'm abby takaki", "and i almost simultaneously moved out of burlington to essex and started working for the city at burlington telecom which for better or for worse has given me the opportunity to meet all of you and get really passionate about fiber internet technology smart cities gigabit cities", "i'm also an executive fellow b2b of night and and steven hildo he may be regretting it today was the one who said look more into this digital divide thing and find out how it can be implemented here and it got me really worked up", "i'm passionate about the frustrating lack of data that we have in the city even though everyone knows there's a need", "so i had a really great experience during innovation week with julia and i'm excited to that she's excited that she's excited to continue the discussion", "and my favorite winter activity just in the past three years has become making snowmen", "sounds good", "and snowwomen snowpeople", "trying to be inclusive very good yes it's snow and impulsive", "great so did we get everyone i think we did", "awesome", "so there are a few goals for today", "i'll back up so you can see these", "and again this is a flexible can you hear me okay we're good this is a flexible event so we can steer in whatever direction we need to steer in", "but in general we want to tonight draw attention to the digital divide that impacts many diverse communities here in the burlington in burlington but also in burlington area", "we want to identify what we are all currently doing", "so that was a great start and what we could be doing to increase digital inclusion in the area", "and then also just to figure out ways to leverage the uniqueness of this area", "so our large new american population and the universities that we have here the services that are available like all of these really great resources really think about how to leverage those in the best way", "so very quickly the last event we did in case some of you weren't there was an event that focused on a broad view of internet health and that's a term that has been getting more and more attention lately", "mozilla foundation has been doing a lot of work around five issues related to internet health", "and one of those issues is digital inclusion", "another one of those issues is web literacy", "and some of these are these questions were were what we really focus that event on", "so you can see as you read them they're pretty broad facing but some of the outcomes of that were there seemed to be some trends happening", "so one of the trends after during the event and then as we looked at the notes afterward was the need for more data", "so like a lot more granular data on what we know about who's using the internet why they're using it why they're not using it", "and how you know that may paint a picture of gaps and places where we need to really focus on", "and then another one of those outcomes that we noticed was the need to share the resources that already exist more more on the forefront of of the communities that we work in and that we serve and are a part of because we do have a lot here already", "so that was another thing", "and i think another one was just that there's a lot of examples out there that we can draw from from other cities that are close to our size or have a similar i don't know geographical location and access that we do that we could really learn from", "so those are some bigger outcomes", "so today we decided to drill down you know onto the into the digital inclusion topic specifically", "and before we do that and look at some other stuff i just wanted to make some clarification about terms", "so there's two here", "one is digital divide and one is digital inclusion and those terms often are used simultaneously or in conjunction with each other but for the sake of this event i just wanted to clarify kind of how they're different", "so digital divide is a term that refers to inequalities in the access that people have to information technology", "so that's a very specific way of pointing to gaps that we know exist", "and then digital inclusion is more of a framework", "and that framework is used to assess and consider the readiness of communities to provide access to communities", "and then within that framework and again these are definitions there's many definitions out there many and a lot of them are great", "i picked these because i think they really kind of are quick and easy to understand for the context of this event", "so to think about digital inclusion as a framework here there's three areas we can think of access adoption and application", "so the access is just the simply the affordability and the availability of these tools and these resources that connect people digitally", "and then the adoption is that digital literacy piece", "so how people understand it how secure they are unsafe they are using it", "and then the application of it", "so how they're using it to better their lives and create opportunities and seek out opportunities in a community", "so that's kind of the framework we're talking about when we're talking about digital inclusion", "this is a great quote that was i pulled from a research project called digital inclusion survey", "it was from an association", "yes", "over here", "is the list feed better i'm worried about the mic though", "i'm okay okay i'm trying to speak loudly", "hold the mic", "yes", "she said hold the mic", "hold the mic i think i'm okay can you hear me alex yeah like to hold the mic that would be better", "oh okay", "let's try that then", "i think that's good okay", "are you going to be comfortable is it going to be in the way of your presentation i think it'll be okay i'll manage", "you've got plenty of slack", "all right", "so yeah so you can take a read", "i won't read it verbatim but basically this quote is referring to that that fact that access is one thing but then there's a larger issue of how people understand what they're accessing and then how they apply that", "mimi ito is a researcher and the founder of connected learning research network", "this is another great quote that i think does a nice job of demonstrating how the the way that we disperse these tools and the way that we're informing people about them and creating resources around them is a huge part to making them", "oh thank you", "to making them accessible", "can go ahead", "so now i just wanted to point to existing resources where we can find data related to what we that i know of", "and obviously you all have been doing this work for a while and probably have even more places to point to but you can go ahead and go and so oh and then so i i am like obsessed with quotes", "you'll see a lot of these in this presentation justin reich is another really great person to follow", "he's managing a research project out of mit in cambridge massachusetts", "this is the quote just related to that data piece like how important it is to have data in order to know exactly what to make to serve people and to really bridge that divide", "okay so we looked at this mary brought in some slides at the last event and i just wanted to refresh everyone's memory", "this is the broadband availability data set that is available", "i pull just the chittenden county stats here", "it's hard to see i know it's very small", "but basically it is an assessment of the total number of buildings", "and then the percentage of those buildings that have access to different levels of broadband", "this section is one hundred one hundred megabytes per second download and upload speed", "so one hundred over one hundred and then it goes down twenty five over three and then four over one", "so you can see like the different cities and towns in chitteden county and how it breaks down", "i mean if you look at it the the rate for burlington is nine hundred and nineteen with one hundred over one hundred so that's pretty good", "that's like but what does that mean like does that mean that these are the buildings now is every apartment in that building have access like how does it break down further so i think there's some pieces there that we could learn more about", "center for rural studies at uvm i don't know if anyone has worked there or knows more about this", "i was intrigued by this report but it's old it's from two thousand and ten", "and this report goes into a lot of detail about household internet connections through a survey", "and this is vermont wide", "so digging through this this particular one i pulled as an example is just going into detail about household income in comparison to access to or ownership of computers access to broadband and then some other combinations of the both", "so i think this is great if we could do this again or", "yes lauren the vermont department of public service he's updating the tenyear telecom plan which they do every three years", "and so they will have the most accurate data around the state", "awesome", "i mean along the lines of what mary's showed maybe even more detail", "that's great", "so you can talk to them if you want more data", "awesome thank you", "i'm gonna check with you later to make sure we get it written down so i remember", "yes is the percentage of a computer is that considered like more desktop or smartphones or combooks probably like anything that people wouldn't get access to", "that's a great question", "and i work with i imagine", "yeah no that's a great question i'm not sure", "and i don't know how a lot of the stuff i don't know how it breaks down", "like you know is it mobile is it are they laptops desktops so", "i don't think for sure in two thousand and ten there were any computer problems with desktops", "yeah", "that's not from my time", "yeah", "and so in league with mobile internet connections", "when did the iphone come out it went out", "yeah so ben is working on it", "but anyway a really great place", "does anybody know center for rural studies yeah", "okay", "so do you know if they're doing report more current reports in this type of way or", "they're calling themselves now the vermont data center", "okay", "and michael mosher is the primary contact there", "so he's the person to ask about if they're updating", "typically they do contract work so someone will hire them to update certain data sets", "so he's a good resource to talk to about the status of the data", "great perfect", "okay next slide", "and this little gem over here is the comprehensive economic development strategy the ceds", "and this is a report that characterizes the state of chittenden county's economy its strengths its weaknesses opportunities and threats", "and then identify strategies and actions to maintain and to grow it", "so this is a lengthy document but it goes into a lot of detail", "and then i just put this image here cause i think it's an interesting way to explain in really in a short way this circle of prosperity that they're talking about in this report which is kind of how things like the health of people and the quality of education really affects that the workforce switching then affects the increase of regional income and opportunity which then affects the healthiness of the environment and the vibrancy of where we live", "so i put that in there as just kind of i thought that was a neat way of doing it next slide", "and so within that framework of strengths weaknesses opportunities and threats there's more opportunities than what i pulled here but these are the ones that are significantly reflective of technology", "so they kind of go through like engaging highly skilled and trainable retirement age population because we have statistically we have a larger time of population supporting and growing new american populations", "we have that unique feature here in this part of vermont to promote telecommuting and remote workforce here", "so these are all opportunities that in this report which is relatively recent is pulled out as something we really need to take advantage of", "so that's a great list next slide", "another thing this report does is suggest fourteen initial target clusters and industries for attraction and development efforts", "and out of the fourteen almost half are technology related", "so we have infotech here digital media ecommerce clean tech and green tech", "we have nonprofit organizations i think that ties very closely", "and then we have higher ed and i would say business and administrative services also is very closely related to this topic", "so i thought that that was interesting that you know this report it's general it's looking at all industry but even in their suggestions of what we need to progress half of them almost are tech and digital related", "and so kind of buried in this report is something called the environment community opportunity and sustainability scorecard has anybody heard of this scorecard yeah", "yeah okay", "so what this scorecard is is basically takes these top line", "yes there's indicators but there's several indicators for each of the i guess you would call them objectives or overall kind of markers results results", "results yes", "so there's these results and then indicators that show how those results are met", "is that a good way of saying it so i kind of dug around dug around dug around there", "it's intriguing", "it's you know if you like data and you like to read through this stuff you should definitely go look through it all", "cause it reports on all kinds of stuff like outside of tech sustainability efforts clean water all kinds of stuff", "so in my effort to find the broadband and internet related stuff it was buried in this in this result here which is to ensure adequate infrastructure and facilities", "and then ie water supply wastewater stormwater broadband solid waste and recycling", "so it's buried in this it's buried in like this infrastructure kind of group", "and then in the indicators there's no indicator that points to broadband", "so i don't know how we could get that in there", "and in my opinion even more create a result that's only broadband and then have like a handful of indicators that speak directly to that", "but i love this as a tool next slide", "and you probably are all familiar with the vtd performance dashboard that's online", "this is through the city website and each of these are clickable links that bring you to this this dashboard that does an assessment of these different topic areas", "and we have a city open data portal which is where the any open data like where you can go search for broadband access for example would be located", "or any other types of open data that we would want to find", "so i think this is a great place", "i couldn't find much here yet but i think it's an opportunity", "it's new", "it's brand new great okay", "but i love that it's there", "next slide", "okay so that's kind of a landscape of all the things that i could find and i'm very eager and we'll have a chance to talk about more that weren't there", "cause we can get them all written down", "i wanted to show some examples of digital inclusion initiatives in and outside of vermont", "and of course here's another quote", "danah boyd is a researcher and author that is very well known on writing about this topic and especially around teens and how they're using the internet", "and she says in a world where information is easily available strong personal networks and access to helpful people often matter more than access to information itself and i think that's very powerful and i agree completely", "okay so i'm not going to go through all of these projects and i'm going to make this slide deck available after", "so you can if you'd like but i do want to show one two or three of these that i think are very very influential for us in this context", "and i think we'll go like from small to big", "so there's a project and abby introduced me to this", "i'm going to let her speak about it but it's called e2d", "it's located in davidson north carolina", "do you want to talk about that yeah i'll just like sorry", "thank you", "a quick overview davis north carolina for anyone who isn't familiar with e2d is literally started with a daughter who came home and said to her dad all of our homework assignments are on the internet but i know that i have a friend who's homeless and she doesn't have a computer", "she doesn't have a home", "she doesn't have internet", "that's not fair and he said you're right and that has now grown into a digital inclusion effort that encompass", "it started in tiny little davison", "they raise money with lemonade stands every year", "lowe's is headquartered near there so they ponied up some support", "and it's just a really great example of a very small town that made a very big effort and turned it into something even bigger", "it's growing every year and now they're help they're taking care of all the middle schools in charlotte", "so like they went from tiny to huge city", "so i think that's a really cool example of small and then growing to be something really big through something just a simple question or a young girl who pointed out something that's just not fair", "and it resulted in that", "so i thought that was really cool example", "yeah", "yeah", "that's great grassroots kind of projects to show", "can you click on open austin there so i have a tree set up", "let me just close that close the tree", "i think it might be off of", "is this one yeah there we go", "so open austin is a volunteer organization that's been running for several years now and is focused mostly on open data or started to as a focus on an open data", "so their mission in the beginning was to get the the austin government to share their data openly online", "and they've been very successful", "and so since they've they've kind of reached these goals and as they reach these goals of certain data sets to become available they've kind of expanded at the same time", "so at the top here we have there's events projects advocacy and then just various ways of support", "and each of these have like the projects you kind of click on these", "yeah", "so these are all open projects that live on github which is a place for sharing content and open source code", "and these are all you can see like there's a fake news project there's community data project", "these are all community driven projects", "so they've identified needs in their community in different regions in austin and built these projects and open austin features them and host events around these projects", "so there's just there's a lot of ways that they're making they're making it possible for citizens and residents in these different areas to participate in the digital inclusion progress in these areas", "so i think that's brilliant", "and then the other thing they do if you scroll all the way back up go to advocacy", "so they they've created agendas that they've put here on the website and they've can you click on candidate questionnaires so they've actually prepared questionnaires", "anytime somebody runs for office that they send out to each candidate and they say fill this out and this speaks directly to the digital inclusion and particular needs that that they've identified", "and they say what do you think about this what would you do about this what would you do and so you can actually go through these and you can read each of the candidates responses and get a very clear understanding of how they feel about digital inclusion", "and if there's a plan or like you know if there's not a plan all of that good stuff", "so and this is this is the tip of the iceberg with this project", "so it's like a little bit bigger than the grassroots north carolina project but it started there", "and so now they have all these other elements that are embedded in it", "can you go back is there actually a platform for all of this is it all hosted there well it's all hosted there", "the site i don't know if the site is hoping it looks like it might be hosted there but i'm not sure but all of those projects are hosted on github", "and then if like resources their primary goal is openness", "so all of the resources that they use to run their organization is also on github", "yeah so you can access all of that stuff", "can you go back to the slide deck we're going to open up", "oh", "it's okay just go down and go back to", "yep that slide twenty four", "and click on the top link", "sorry", "that one", "it's gonna give you that thing there you go", "thank you", "so this is kind of the next level and this is the austin city government page that is dedicated entirely to digital inclusion", "so if you scroll down on this page each council district has a report and each of these reports is a highly detailed version of what digital inclusion looks like in that region or in that district", "so i mean click on one just as an example", "so this goes into great detail about the events that are happening in that region what progress has been made for digital inclusion in that region the data in that region", "so it goes and austin's a lot bigger than we are", "so i mean that says and that could go two different ways", "like it's a lot bigger so they have more resources or we're a lot smaller so we could do this too right so maybe we could like there's somewhere in the middle but i just love how much details included in each of these reports", "and on that main website page there is a map that people can see any upcoming event related to digital inclusion and internet related and digital topics", "yeah this one", "okay let's go back to the slides", "i have a question yeah are all the people in general just putting information on this or there's a specific group of people that put information that's available to everyone that's a good question", "for the events it's probably i have to look more closely but it looks like people are just submitting events", "so when they run an event they post it", "and then that gets shared on that kind of big map that we saw but the reports themselves happened through the city", "so they have i'm guessing either they work with organizations to do that research or they have people that work internally", "but those reports come from the city", "they probably have ten passwords to get on there", "yeah lots of passwords", "those are important", "so those are examples", "a lot of these others are wonderful", "i added some burlington ones and there's a lot more than this but these were all really inspiring to", "common good vermont code for btv burlington telecoms edge unit and lifeline", "so there's lots of stuff happening locally here that we can use as an example and leverage but yeah just kind of a snapshot", "thank you okay so what do we want to do the big question of the evening what time is it right now does anybody know six hundred and forty six hundred and forty", "six hundred and forty okay great perfect", "we have plenty of time", "again this is i don't know what had just happened", "is that an old quote did i do this one can you go back a slide okay great so we're good", "we're in the right place", "so this was we're going to break up net right now and have a break but also but also think about and brainstorm some questions particularly", "and if you go to the next slide abby", "so i don't know what we want to do", "i don't have the answer", "none of us have that exact like thing that's gonna make everything better right but we have each other and we have all of this experience", "so these are some things that we can tonight start to brainstorm around", "so one is do more research and we have i've put these posters up around the room", "so i don't know where this one is but it's either how can we improve how can i help yeah so there's a poster back there that says who can help us get the data we need to identify barriers to digital inclusion so like you know lauren had some great suggestions", "so anything related to people organizations initiatives research hubs like who can we reach out to to help us try to get more specific with this data identify existing resources", "what would a one stop shop look like for digital inclusion in vermont like could we model it after open austin or would we want to put it on that city portal that i showed as an example like where would it live what would it look like and then build alliance", "so you know having strong advocacy and support and buyin from the mayor's office and other institutions that are very prominent here is really important", "and just recognizing that no single organization can solve the digital divide right it's a combination of many", "so you know what would those guiding principles be for digital inclusion and how would we be able to craft them with all of the expertise in the room and then just reaching a targeted population you know we have all of these great diverse communities here seniors the unemployment population low income households new americans public housing residents veterans", "so there's like all of these very specific groups that if we had more data we might know how to serve them better and bridge that gap", "so these are some top line things to kind of think about and what we're going to do next is next slide", "we're going to focus on these three questions", "and i pointed out one already which is who can help us get this data how do we start this who can we talk to and there's markers and i have some postit notes", "so we're going to add ideas related to that question in the back", "the second question is how can we improve future meetings like this and what could we include to make them more beneficial so like i said in the beginning i'm hoping this is the first of many conversations", "so what would we want in the next one how could we really start to be effective with this group and on this topic and the last question here is what is our bhag for this movement and what is the change we want to see does anybody know what bhag stands for i have a hand in the back", "big hairy audacious goal", "exactly", "so in other words what is that big crazy goal that we want for this movement this digital inclusion movement so all answers are welcome", "this is a brainstorming opportunity", "and then in addition to that question is just what is the change we want to see so we may not have these answers tonight", "it's likely we don't because we don't have a lot of information yet but we could have fun brainstorming a little there", "the last poster i have is the parking lot poster", "and this is a very important poster because this parking lot poster which is in the back as well is a place for you to add things that aren't on these posters yet", "so questions that we still have that i didn't address", "topics or concerns that you didn't we didn't address tonight that would affect digital inclusion suggestions", "anything that you think is relative to this conversation but can't put it on a poster throw it in the parking lot and we'll use it for the next conversation", "i think that's the last slide is that the last one yeah", "aren't you going to end with an awesome quote oh you're right oh i failed", "it's all over we can all go home", "okay so i'm gonna end there before we jump on these posters here and take questions if you have them i would like everyone to go on a break", "you know i've been talking for a while but yeah", "what do you guys any questions what is the big hairy goal here yeah", "good question", "i'm curious", "good question and i don't have the answer", "if you stop moving the floor becomes lava or the room becomes dark or something", "yeah", "we all have to constantly shift and move", "the motion detector is all the way over there which makes no sense", "i'm curious", "i mean does anybody have a thought on that what that goal would be i think mine would be like every single person in burlington has", "sorry", "every single person in burlington and then chittenden county and then vermont and then the country and then the world has affordable or you know whatever free super affordable access to the fastest internet available and all of the tools and resources necessary to use it", "i think we should rephrase that", "i think everyone should be able to make their network their personal network access any other network on the planet", "yes i love it", "because they want to internetwork it with the other networks on the planet and they need to own and have their own network first to internetwork with another network and whether their network is simply their phone and that's why i'm asking those questions whether it's a phone or a chromebook or a more comprehensive computer and you may have a router or network you know what is it where is that barrier and if you know someone only has a phone but they say that they're connected are they do they have their own network that can connect to other networks is that the barrier i think those are good questions to ask", "i love that that's an example then of how that is two different things", "you know it's different for every one of us and the people who have no interest", "i'm struggling with the big goal too", "but for me it's something different than digital", "my voice carries", "it's something different than just giving people access because in two thousand and seventeen more people have access than they used to", "but i often say that as we talk about a digital economy the pace of change is accelerating in our society", "it wrapped around digital technology digital technology is empowering us but also changing our world", "and i summarize that when i'm talking about what i'm trying to do is to make sure that this disruption is happening for us as a community and not happening to us", "now that means lots of all kinds of very wooly things", "but it's the fact that our employers are able to use to be cursed with people using the technology in the way that they they get access to the right employees", "and that recent graduates are speaking the same digital language as our employers for example", "or that something that works for you today doesn't change on you", "the internet somebody said the internet is always changing", "so how do we make sure that we're riding that wave and we're proactive and it's a very very broad thing", "and i think it needs to be nailed down but there's something around that that for me is a big challenge", "yeah", "yes", "one of the things that i really like is the you showed from the austin communitybased was hosted on github", "and if that's really done on github and it's all open source i think that's a crucial piece of the model", "i think it's very important that whatever happens here it's important that much if not all of it is done in open source tools with available code and that any research is reproducible research so that you're publishing here's the code we used to process the data here's the link to the data here's the report that came out of it so somebody else can dissect it", "and it is fully transparent", "yeah", "if we build that into the culture of what we're doing and then we also bridge to the maker community who was working with you know raspberry pis and arduinos and experimenting and making everything from art to robots with this technology", "using open source tools in transparent ways we make this more accessible to everybody", "i think that's a real that accessibility takes the mystery out of it and makes it available to all of us", "you're right", "hold on one minute alex again yeah absolutely", "okay we'll do a couple more i saw three hands go up and then i do want to capture these suggestions so they don't get lost in the air", "so let's do the rest that at hands i saw whoa whoa hold on i just got", "oh so sorry about that", "oh are you writing oh thank you", "okay", "yes in the front well i find that my difficulty is that people even though they know a lot about the internet don't know how to teach it", "and they'll they'll go off into the jargon of the internet and lose me within seconds yeah", "and and you're always trying to you know get what they're saying but they're going so fast and aren't really good teachers", "mhm", "so i think that's a skill that's very different than the average teacher", "i agree completely", "we're getting all these notes down yes", "i was gonna piggyback on what barbara said in saying that we need classes that have extremely easy ways to understand things", "and i think we should use macbook computers because they're a lot easier", "maybe there's some place part of city hall where they have classes on a weekly basis where people can come in and people can teach them on a oneonone help them find exactly the things that they need", "mhm", "and i would look to think there was a book written by one of the photoshop gurus on how to use your iphone when it first came out", "and i compared that with one for those other computers not in saves it was so easy you could understand it that maybe we can look to someone like that to write a comprehensive use of the internet both that goes nationwide or international so you can start off having similar or the same language", "if i could just quickly add yeah", "jessamyn west who's a librarian in vermont has written that book actually", "and she does work on digital inclusion", "i think she'd be a great person to bring up here", "and she has given very simple ways to discuss how to use computers how to use the internet working in all different kinds of demographics", "she's also she serves on the board of wikimedia with me as well so she's very and she's based in vermont yeah wow", "we need to get her to come next time", "if only we had a librarian in the room that knew jessamyn", "i'm friends with jessamyn", "i think that i mean i think sometimes if we do we keep hearing you know this is something that the library can do", "we do we have classes you can book a librarian and they will sit side by side with you and do those things", "sometimes our resources are really stretched right now", "and i think a lot of what we're hearing now is we're getting the late late late late adopters", "and they are definitely the hardest folks to bring along", "and it's a challenge yeah", "but i'm hearing a lot of similar kind of feelings and thoughts here", "what literacy digital literacy", "in the back you want visual litters so people can understand visually not verbally", "right", "donald it has to be something entirely different", "and i may end up making a total fool of myself even though i've worked in technology for quite a while i don't think of my digital iq as being particularly high", "but barbara and i live in a community of thirty two families", "and they're all ages lots of different abilities lots of different incomes", "we're basically a privileged community", "anyways there may be some benefits but it's a community we could study", "yeah", "it's a community where i mean it's already happening", "like canopy the two hundred dose", "well i've been going through different families and showing them how they can get access to that", "and so but that's just a minor example", "i mean we have people on a totally different level we could do a survey very easily", "i just wouldn't know how to go", "it would be nice to make a study out of this thing start with the survey so we could identify where we're starting at try to define the goal of where we want to be and then sort of measure that you know it would be a nice project that we could use as a model for doing this with other communities", "now there's being a cohousing community collaboration is a really key piece and we're learning how to do that", "and one of the things we're learning is about how the internet is a source of abuse", "it's a source of you need to be careful", "i mean we have more we practically have more rules within our community about what you say in an email to everybody and what you don't", "and what you know so there's that piece", "so there's a social piece as well as the the digital skills and resources", "and i don't have i mean i have a little piece of an idea how we could do this but boy if we would do this i would need a lot of help", "just even coming up with the original survey", "and i would love for that to happen", "and how do we deploy it so that the people who need it are taking the survey it would have to be super grassroots i think which is kind of exciting", "like it can't be something we put out on the internet", "that's a perfect example like having people invested and involved that could say like take the survey so that we know how what who we need to serve and how we can serve you better right well we can we just we just did a survey and got a forty one response", "sixty five was a whole different thing", "yeah", "but it's a community where you could do that", "and but i wouldn't even know exactly how to what questions to ask to begin with", "right and that's what we would want to build", "that's something we could think about here when they put this through", "yes yeah", "i think the notion of reaching folks where they're at and trying to really assess what are their barriers to accessing the digital economy and i serve on a few boards and a couple of cases residents one of them is affordable housing it's northgate apartments actually", "and one of the few of the board members don't use email and don't use the internet and it really puts them at a significant disadvantage", "and i can already tell that there's like a divide in our group", "and it's unfortunate because the board is almost all residents", "i happen to be a community member who serves on that board but it's ten residents in four community reps and it's the largest affordable housing complex in vermont", "it's resident owned resident control", "it's a truly unique community but right there in that group we've got folks who are being left out and left behind", "so i think engaging people where they're at to find out what would make you more able and capable to access technology do you want to first of all of course and if you do and you see the benefits what supports do we need to give you to be able to access that and if you don't why not yeah yeah", "so kind of related to that i was on a board that's kind of i'm one of the youngest people on it", "it's mostly kind of two generations above me", "and so we had there's a lot of tension for awhile over use of technology because there's and i think this is something that i'm involved in the neighborhood planning assembly in the new north end", "and this is something i think there are two where we see kind of open meeting law hasn't caught up with what's possible for engaging online governance", "and so we eventually got to the point where i sat down with all the people on the board who wanted to and it was like this is why we don't send attachment emails this is why we use google docs instead", "and this is how we use this kind of online voting system so we don't have to make all of our decisions in inperson meetings and after when it was kind of when we got drilled down and got clear on what are the benefits of these things adoption was very quick yeah", "but it was sort of there was kind of like a block of without sort of comprehending what those benefits were you know why learn the new system if the old system is somewhat workable because those gains in efficiency and sort of what's possible aren't visible", "and so the thing that i've been kind of really thinking about in terms of setting goals is you know the idea of having inperson once a month neighborhood meetings is great but it also there's inherently just a limited number of people who can show up and be involved in things that are you know key for engagement with city counselors and you know development planning in each neighborhood", "and if we can kind of set for me what the big hairy audacious goal would be is getting the citizenry of burlington to the point where we could have complimentary online platforms that people would feel comfortable with but that could engage a vast greater number of people that are currently engaged by these inperson meetings", "yeah that's great", "i think we got those", "i think we got the notes down", "lauren's writing vigorously over there", "yeah i saw a hand over here", "i just want to point out from just hearing the room i just hear three basic categories which is just general access to internet working education about anything and everything surrounding technology and then particularly applications which are much more thermal and are gonna move you know the thing that might be applicable today might be something better tomorrow", "like you know ten fifteen years ago email was so like awesome and past me", "right but yeah we have a better way of doing it", "yeah", "for a lot of things", "also the irony here the fact that you're i don't know the right word of like clearly we're all in this room because of the internet", "like that's how you found out about this meeting but we didn't do anything to reach out to the people who are trying to help", "so how do we bridge that and make this whole thing more inclusive let alone a solving agent yeah", "yeah", "this is perhaps an oblique comment but i think maybe necessary is to think about consent with who gets the internet and whether they want it in the first place", "we've heard like pitterings of that in other comments but i just want to drill down and say that as we think of the internet as a saluatory force it's you know it has all of these benefits good for job applications increasingly necessary", "and throughout your life it's also can be used as a tool for surveillance and for privacy violations", "and with many of the targeted groups they are also targeted groups right so when we think about the ways that we're going to bring out surveys to vulnerable communities and then how to engage them in ways that first has their consent that they want to be using the internet and then also that whatever apps or resources that are provided to them have very transparent ways of saying this is how your data is being collected how it's being used", "and that if you want to request your data you can other people were talking about open source and get help", "that's one effort for transparency", "so i guess i would i would be concerned in the process that both the method and an outcome there's privacy built in", "yeah", "and i think that that also ties into the notion of being a contributor to what contents being created", "so like at a very basic level like if we're going to make surveys or ask for information like maybe the people who we're surveying should have a role in that process or you know whatever the case", "so but that's a really good thing to remind us of", "yes that was sort of related to what i was going to say is that i have serious concerns about people using the free apps and thinking it's so cool", "and there's so much going on that they don't know", "and we don't really have a good way of right now there's no rules about that", "so i have concerns about all the google apps that everybody uses", "and so even facebook and twitter and all of these things i choose not to have a facebook account not because i'm technologically deliberate and could not do it i'm very concerned about this", "and so one of the scary things is that this inclusion process and access process is layering on top of free apps that are to make it convenient and efficient for us to network and get to know each other and share information and documents", "but in fact it's just totally being data mined profiled", "and so it really it bothers me every time somebody says oh let's just you know i mean i hate to say it the google docs thing you know and others we don't have platforms that are actually the equivalent that we know what's going on and that we have the ability to say no", "and so i'm really supportive of what you're saying because to me it's really a tricky thing right now because the way everybody's connecting with is free apps and you don't have any control over what's going on", "and the people that do ancestry dna i mean what are you thinking things like that just crazy", "well let's do you next and then we'll go over there", "okay i have a candidate pa", "you what oh okay", "wait what for the bhag", "big hairy audacious goal", "bhag", "open source user completely own the control data version of facebook", "isn't that social no they're vc funded", "let's do it social a coop", "all right all right", "ello which is the burlington is kind of a step towards that", "but i don't use facebook for some of the same reasons", "that i won't put anything out there of mine that i can't take back", "and i mean yeah there there's so many parts to that", "and there's so many ways it's still i think knowing what those vulnerabilities are are a part of digital inclusion", "so choosing not to use it as very much part of the conversation but knowing why you're choosing and like what you can say i don't want to use this because it does if i have to sign this agreement that makes you give that", "so like that literacy is a big part of this conversation", "in effect a movement to build a", "we own it we manage it we use these principles to guide what's out there", "this is a very different approach", "check out platform cooperative", "yes", "on my behalf would be to live in a community where there are no barriers to enter to connection", "right so we need that data", "right", "to find out what those and i would just echo what you said about there's definitely a literacy component about under working working with what you have and making it as safe and secure and you can even be offense in the way you act online that can thwart some of those things but people have to know and you have to teach them and having a healthy digital community does that", "yeah yes i agree", "i'm choosing to be excluded because of the lack of ability to control", "so exactly", "and you are fortunate because you have all of that knowledge to say like this is dangerous but i'm also excluded from participating", "my sisters and my friends know more about my sister's activities than i do", "i don't participate in linkedin", "so professionally i have challenges", "any of those things it's really a digital exclusion of a different form", "absolutely", "well that brought me to the point that i was making", "and i'm really trying to take a step back and say what are we talking about it as a group here and what i tend to get into with folks that don't understand technology is we're talking about this application or that application or this application", "all is built off of two things which is really the networks you're talking about the computer systems that use those networks and are part of that network and the literacy around that", "the education around that", "and that's what she's really getting at", "and part of that might even be you can't necessarily even escape the surveillance around you", "how many people have a cell phone in your pocket right now that's picking up your voice picking up everything we're doing every moment we're here you can't actually escape it", "how many people are running a messenger app on their phone right now it's picking up everything we're doing i bet there's at least one in the room", "point being is education lets you understand what the applications can do and what the capability of these systems might be", "it might be better to flood with disinformation and to think that you can actually avoid it completely but that's an education thing", "it's not about whether you're using that application or not", "does that make sense the default should be privacy", "not open and give it all away", "that's my concern because you can't introduce we just don't live in that world", "i guess the education i'm trying to get is that it's an education aspect and a network aspect and we'd get lost in these conversations weighing applications talking about this application or that application", "and i think it would be very difficult to start saying unless we come up with like something is there some kind of application that we think is really going to help our community access the internet and education around the internet that's why i'm having a hard time synthesizing from our conversation", "yeah", "and so another thing is just like we should have something to match an online service in an offline way", "so like this education that we're speaking of you know obviously putting stuff online is very beneficial for people who know how to get to it and feel comfortable getting at it but we should also have things available for people that don't feel comfortable in those spaces but can access the same information and learn the same thing in perhaps an inperson session or with printouts", "i mean it's like providing options", "i think at least at the stage we're at and the communities we would maybe wanting to reach is important", "yes i'm looking at hearing everyone and just my own having been with the internet for years i still get lost on i still get mixed up i still hit the wrong thing i still have pages fly up or blow up or won't open", "and i'm looking at things that are paths with that little phone", "that's supposed to be a simpleton phone", "and it has i think six or seven words on and his phone and his messages", "it has photos and you just push i presume you just push it and i'm looking at", "perhaps we need to really write a software", "maybe it's specifically a software for a town that wants to have a private or just in town space that we use or regardless one that's super simple for us to use", "so when someone opens up the computer screen all they do is press go or they express stop or they press enter", "you know they press maybe one of four words to get where they need to go", "and it just keeps simplifying the process", "and instead of complicating it as i feel it does as i try to dig beyond the very basic thing", "even still trying to go to google and sometimes it doesn't you know it doesn't happen", "so it can", "can some of us start writing or is there some software out there that's called easy for the seniors", "one word only at a time you know and you know that could be cool", "people here could write it and then it could be sold to other people", "and maybe we could make a little", "i would love it", "these are all really great suggestions", "obviously it's going to take us a little while to figure out what we want to do and to figure out what that big hairy audacious goal could be for this group", "and i think it will be in steps", "so for the next like if we think about this as a movement let's say", "a local movement to really kind of grow digital inclusion in the area what would be our immediate next steps we want to turn this into a regular gathering how frequent would it be would we want to create a place online for us to connect using an app like signal that's encrypted and one of the safest that exists as far as privacy is concerned right now where we could connect with each other and share content would we want to i mean what do you think like how could we move forward in a small way and to meet the capacities we all have and the interests that we all have what do you think what would be good like synthesizing a lot of these comments is the first thing i think you know i will collect it all lauren i think there's a lot of work that's been going on for a long time on this issue yeah", "and i'm not sure starting a movement is particularly the next move", "i mean in my opinion i think there is here's the centeralized", "here's the future", "a decentralized effort", "i think that we need to identify who's doing this work and needs and we can leverage their efforts", "great", "because there is already work identity that's going on to get resources skills training whatever through the library", "and maybe other places", "and the library's probably got resource constraints and they've got issues that they can just help them", "so i would say leverage what we're already doing instead of creating new work and then see what the data actually does show about where the gaps are that for example the library or other entities are may not know", "and that might point towards another area or a particular group of people as you said", "yep", "but i think that we want to apply our effort to what's working and help it work better", "i agree", "and then from that new things come but there isn't anything new that anyone's said", "i think what we're missing as a community is a digital security plan", "and that might not be the way to put it but that we actually have a plan about how we what our goals are and which i think is what you're trying to get at", "what are our goals as a community now we want open networks we want access for all we want whatever the people said and then we want privacy protection", "and then each one of those has deliverables underneath them", "you know that in the legislature you're looking at privacy and for data not only for broadband providers but data aggregators right so there's stuff going on now", "there's stuff there's a telecom plan going on", "nobody ever shows up to talk about it and they ask for input so", "exactly yeah", "so i'm just this is a long way of saying i just think there's a lot happening and building on that inventory of what's happening and seeing what resources are needed", "and then the collective effort of this group and intelligence can help put pressure", "yeah", "in a movement like way on those areas where we need to leverage more resources or more protection", "yeah", "i saw lots of hands kind of sprinkled", "just a quick story about something that happened here when the city was pursuing a cable company and the cable company said to the city it's been bernie was mayor we're going to stop you and bernie said yeah right", "you're gonna stop us we're going to do it anyway they said okay what do you need and bernie said i need you to ensure that senior citizens living in public housing and other lowincome seniors will have a fixed cable rate forever and it didn't last forever but it lasts as long as that company was around they owed us a million dollars", "and a million dollars as well to please the city", "so it was a ten flat fee for all seniors from there on that lasted for well over a decade probably fifteen years maybe maybe closer to twenty", "and it was before bt arrived obviously", "so i'm just saying something like that that ensures access for folks who really need access would make a huge difference", "and i think we just have to be practically", "and like that educational thing", "right exactly", "right and the device too right", "yep", "exactly", "yeah yep", "yes i'm looking at this and seeing all these different areas and let's see if we can pick one maybe it's a library where we can let everyone know that if you have questions at all about the internet you could go to the library as a starting point because they're always there", "so we don't have to worry about someone not being there", "and people can go to the library free it's wheelchair accessible it has bathrooms it has nice places to sit and that at least the conversation could be started there", "perhaps we can help initiate or fundraise whatever you might need to start collecting information that people are bringing in", "access and helping you get access that they need to use so that they can work on the internet and let you be the focal point with from which we all can bring in information", "and as you have questions you can come back to us", "maybe we can form an email for them to come back to us but we need to centralize all this into one space and it seems like we really need education and we need access", "and we want some privacy and we need to simplify the whole system", "i think it's really interesting that both our innovation week event and this one we landed at we have so many resources how do we let everyone know about them and then how do we utilize them and leverage them in the ways that we need and i'm building a new collection or growing your collection at the library might be exactly it", "and then how do we get the word out that that is the hub for burlington digital inclusion and just talking about resources we know that pt offers a very reduced rate to folks in the community ten a month but we have people that aren't taking advantage of it", "so we still feel like what are the barriers why is it they don't have the device is it that they're nervous about security is it an i think we really need to drill into", "let's say that usually when people are struggling that hard going to check all their t's and get everything figured out is probably very difficult for them", "we have to get to them cause they can't they can't", "well we've got senior citizen places but i'm sayin let's get the library as the hub from which everything works", "mhm yes", "and do a fundraiser for it", "i think what's most interesting to me in this whole conversation it's certainly it's things we've thought about before you know sitting here talking to that is the idea of regionalization right so coming from winooski you know we talk about things that are happening in burlington", "and i think quite often our community is compared i think other communities", "now we can talk about essence and stuff like that kind of unfairly", "it's different sizes obviously there's different tax spaces", "i think regionalization is huge", "so you know we talk about you know some of these things with burlington telecom i know one of our projects that our planning commission is looking at right now i don't know if you guys saw this but there's the main street revitalization project", "so within that there is sort of this research around including you know along with some of the stuff that you were showing about wastewater and all of that stuff it is very much included to sort of think about high speed internet and fiber and stuff", "the city lights building", "i love the city lights building so they have you know the burlington telecom correct me if i'm wrong the supply gigabit", "big building in vermont", "yeah exactly", "so many of our community members always ask how come we don't have access to burlington telecom by the way you're ten offices at burlington telecom as well right right right", "so yeah a lot of our community members say why are we boxed into comcast why don't we have access to this burlington telecom and in that conversation one of the most fascinating things i saw one at the loi's was sort of this idea that it could be regionalized or it could be offered at least to other communities to get into them", "i think to answer a lot of these questions that we're talking about whether security or access or anything regionalization is huge", "so they talk about regionalizing you know the emergency response system and the nine hundred and eleven stuff", "there's conversations about regionalizing the airport", "it's sort of i think we often get lost within our own boundary lines right i think that's it's huge in the work that we're trying to do i think it's going to be huge in the work that everybody's doing", "so let me just clear up quick feedback saying that the whole reason that bt got eight letters of intent was because of the regionalization aspect and the whole focus going forward is expanding more broadly throughout chittenden county", "and that'll start happening sooner rather than later", "and the whole focus beyond that should be how do we actually broaden even further so that broadband can become a reality in some of the more remote communities you know for monitor's full of meaningfully underutilized fiber networks that press across the state that run past most towns and cities or through most towns and cities in the state", "and they're just sitting there unused say couldn't agree more with", "and i wonder too if you know to sort of share the burden right if an organization like the chitteden county regional planning commission ccrpc you know they've been super gracious with us and number of huge amount of projects and it's great", "they've got a great team", "they're a huge resource for us", "you know i think regionalizations is going to be key", "yeah that's a great point", "yeah", "is there a mailing list or a website or something where i could access or others could access the things that we've been talking about is there one to tap into is there anyone here that didn't actually register for the events online and then yeah", "so if you did i know how to get to them you don't", "anybody who didn't register online if you want to just give us your contact information before you go and then we'll yeah we can use you know this group as a way to start a community", "but also if there's one that already exists we could connect there as well", "so i don't know", "it's kind of a question and an offer at the same time", "like we could", "abby and i can work to you know connect all of us through the library", "so maybe do the library", "i don't know we can figure that out", "but also if that already exists somewhere like there's a community that is good to leverage to continue this conversation we can also do that", "i don't know if anyone has thoughts on the best thing to do", "is that is it almost seven hundred and thirty right now yeah okay", "i say listen to a lot of different ideas", "that one thing that i've learned building products for awhile is that it's easy to get ahead of yourself and start thinking about the features and the aspects that you're going to be delivering but the real key is who's life you're making better through the product", "and so if we're looking at digital inclusion then the first people who we should be talking to are people who are digitally excluded and it's tough to you can get really ahead of yourself thinking about what you think their problems are but until you actually meet them and talk to them and understand it could be a different concept", "so the things that we might think in this room might not be good ideal solutions if they", "don't agree for a solution for a problem that doesn't actually exist", "so that data that like information is the key", "so i'm like i'm kind of a metric skeptical", "so i really like talking to people", "so i would try to find the people that whose lives would be better", "because lots of stuff can get lost as a", "and so i think that could be an interesting next step is if we had an inclusive burlington would never leave what would be different and who are the people that we think would have a delta of change here and go to them and say how you feel about this idea of the library or this other idea or what's your idea any mayoral or city county council candidates that as they're knocking on doors would be willing to start those conversations for us sure sure", "i plan on doing that", "yeah i'm running a war three and i plan on", "and there was someone else who was here", "we have in burlington bike recycle where if your income below a certain threshold they'll set you up with a bicycle and a lock for twenty five", "and they have a program where they train people to work on bikes", "and it's a great program between resource and the schools we can do a program where kids are learning how to repair computers are showing up at somebody's house and for twenty here's a used laptop or a used computer", "in resources selling used machines with windows on them for seventy five", "that's actually included in our program", "right so are we trying to work with resource and for a number of years now what the challenge we found is really them being able to have enough scale and capability to to do anything in a meaningful way we've even bought machines refurbished machines from resource and then further subsidize them to deliver it an even cheaper price to lowincome families", "but it's never proved to be sustainable because of just the lack of hardware", "yeah and their inability to really get to the populations that need it the most so that they know that this resource exists", "so a little program that struggles we can learn from and build on", "yeah yeah", "we're kind of at the end", "one more yeah", "i just want him to say is that i did a lot of photos and cuts and that some of the people there who were part of class and it's a group of maybe thirty forty people", "perhaps we could start right there and they're homeless some of them most of them and that's why we start small and see what we can do with them", "i know the heads of it", "i think", "so i'm kind of leaning towards now after hearing all of this is that maybe we should plan the next conversation but invite individuals from communities or places that are within have those barriers", "yes maybe as a next step at least to start to cause i don't yeah i don't think we know really enough right now about what we need to make or how we need to do this", "so maybe that's something we could work on", "and then what we'll do is send you just a follow up and maybe a survey just to get feedback on this event", "and in that survey could be like what communities do you know of that we could reach out to to invite to the next conversation so we can start to think about what to build to know what we need to do", "does that sound like a good plan at least for", "i still think we gotta have a target the library right away", "just to start collecting data from people who come in", "i think you're yeah yeah", "we'll talk that sounds great", "so so yeah", "thank you everyone for joining", "this was a really amazing conversation", "i'm thrilled with everyone's experience and contribution tonight", "and i can't wait to read through those notes that lauren's taking", "there 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{"audio_document_id": "Grant_History.flac", "identifier": "Grant_History", "text_document_id": "Grant_History.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [6330, 4070, 2870, 9883, 4290, 5260, 3570, 6830, 9260, 6040, 3830, 14680, 10180, 8250, 13450, 5060, 5223, 1370, 4180, 3260, 5330, 7293, 4590, 2180, 6763, 9290, 4580, 5400, 10340, 14470, 11328, 10162, 13153, 4320, 7400, 14180, 6925, 24795, 9983, 5820, 12700, 2740, 10940, 9093, 6560, 5920, 2640, 24783, 11630, 6330, 4450, 7950, 3140, 8223, 12623, 5920, 3920, 6830, 3540, 7970, 3873, 7313, 3560, 10380, 7960, 4380, 6480, 3853, 6650, 14563, 3864, 6940, 8600, 10790, 13350, 5350, 5770, 3238, 18162, 2383, 4370, 4860, 7810, 5180, 4740, 9610, 20560, 13433, 8551, 5151, 4550, 3980, 9920, 3240, 5890, 6380, 8220, 5970, 8043, 7860, 7820, 6530, 10026, 5207, 5803, 7103, 7553], "label": ["the year was one thousand eight hundred and forty nine and the great surge westward across north america had already begun", "the region of land called minnesota received territorial status", "and with that status came pioneers", "this was the place to go then because this was new territory where land could be procured cheaply and the promoters painted a wonderful picture", "but the promoters never had to work too hard when it came to this area", "lush farm country with rolling hills and a horizon that seemed to go on forever", "this was the land these first settlers came upon", "those who dared venture beyond the safe haven of stillwater had names like albion masterman and william rutherford", "they along with men such as james rutherford samuel webster jesse soul and a few others were the first nonindigenous people to populate greenfield", "a township organized on october 20th one thousand eight hundred and fifty eight in the home of thomas ramsden", "the following officers were chosen three town supervisors", "one of which shall be designated as chairman one town clerk one assessor one collector one overseer of the poor two constables two justices of the peace as many overseers of roads as there are road districts in the town", "and as many pound masters as the electors may determine it seemed as if every person in the township would need a title to fill all of the offices", "it was greenfield township to begin with and why that was picked i suppose it sounded rather romantic", "the agrarian movement has started in greenfield sound nice and lush but it turned out there was another in western i believe in western hennepin county that also named themselves greenfield", "so in one thousand eight hundred and sixty four a new name was proposed by the town clerk jesse soul", "the new moniker would honor the great civil war hero general ulysses s grant", "previous to the name change", "the townsfolk had been busy bringing their families from the east dock to join them", "working the land and establishing ordinances", "the first of which was enacted in one thousand eight hundred and fifty nine to prohibit free running swine", "by one thousand eight hundred and sixty three other animals got into the act and the ordinance was broadened to include all farm animals and dogs", "each dog was described by name color and owner in the town records", "any stray found could be impounded", "and if after public notice no one claimed them in ten days the animals were forfeited to the person caring for them", "with the 1860s came great change to washington county the civil war was upon the country and the need for food to nourish the soldiers great", "wheat became the cash crop of the fertile meadows of grant township", "local historian jerry brochures details some of the trades used in the area", "wheat farming and dairying really dairy farmers it was a central part of their operation", "some sheep raising which was carrying on with the old rutherford tradition of raising sheep back in the north of england which is where william and james his father had come", "in addition to england the rutherford neighborhood became populated by people from canada ireland and the east coast states of maine new york new hampshire and massachusetts", "i want to be careful when we speak of that rutherford neighborhood we don't want to just talk about the rutherford's because there were others of course who were just as early", "the masterminds the ramsdens are the main ones that come to mind but the rutherford's along with those other families were the first farmers in the area", "probably the first farmers closest to the city of stillwater", "while farming took out much of the pioneers time they managed to include other more enjoyable activities as well", "we're hardworking people and try to establish a community here and once they had established a community then they they did get together for many different things", "they would i imagine they probably were involved in helping each other build buildings", "and the typical thing you'd expect at the time or they tried once they got here they tried to establish this rutherford center was sort of a an area of these people who had arrived here had something in common and and try to better themselves intellectually too i think they actually started reading groups and and and tried to bring some of the culture of the east to the wilds of the west", "and with fancy music boxes and pianos that survive the long haul across country people were able to enjoy their leisure time just as well as they had in the east", "later on many would have the opportunity to charter a streetcar straight to the wildwood amusement park", "where merrygorounds rollercoasters dancing pavilions laughing and shooting galleries picnic facilities bowling allies and swimming beaches on the shores of the great white bear lake beckoned to them", "but life was not all fun and games", "people also had to consider how their hard earned money was spent in one thousand eight hundred and seventy one would get you four and a half pounds of coffee and twenty cents would give you two pounds of crackers", "and when you were outfitting the family you would always take into consideration the quarters spent for five dozen buttons and the parasol worth forty cents", "but it is perhaps the stories of the individual families that makes grant township's history come alive", "we begin with thomas and jane ramston in whose home the first ever town meeting was held", "he'd seen so much of the world he'd done so much", "i mean the start sailing at the age of eight and in the british navy and go around the world and quit give up the ocean at twenty one i mean he already had a career before most of us were growing up and he started out as a cabin boy and and served the officers and then worked learned the art of carpentry and join and joiner", "so he was a finished carpenter and lived in england for two years after he got out of the navy and then came to america", "it was rumored in the area that the former seaman had a pot of gold buried in one corner of his garden", "although never proven he always had enough to supply all of his wants", "in fact at the one thousand eight hundred and seventy four minnesota state fair thomas took first prize for his oats and first premium for his apples", "the ramsdens were accomplished farmers", "just about anything you can imagine in this country when my great grandfather settled it he was a carpenter", "so he didn't really get into the farming other than subsistence type of farming you know a few cattle some hogs and chickens the old style farm farm where you got a few of everything", "my grandfather got more into the dairy part of it was expanding that", "bruce ramsden is a fourth generation farmer in grant township", "he describes the home his great great grandfather built after staking his claim in one thousand eight hundred and fifty one", "the first house that tom built on the farm and grant was a bilevel", "to fit the top of graphy of the land the kitchen and work rooms were on the first floor and the living room was around the second floor", "a summer kitchen was also built a few feet away from the main house", "i might add that the farm had at one time sixteen buildings not including the outhouse", "tom earned a spotless reputation among his friends and neighbors", "he helped to organize the township of greenfield now grant and served as the town treasurer for twenty six years from one thousand eight hundred and sixty five to one thousand eight hundred and ninety one", "the first meeting to organize the town of greenfield was held in tom ramsdens house on october 20th one thousand eight hundred and fifty eight", "and now onto the namesakes of the neighborhood william and james rutherford", "the rutherford's are known across the country for bringing the first two genuine english sheepdogs to america", "william the younger of the two brothers was the first to head west", "oh i'm sure it was the availability of good cheap farmland", "basically william stated in an account of his journey's that he didn't know where he was headed but he was headed west and made his way to chicago and up the mississippi river", "and i guess came upon this area and found it pretty desirable", "after spending three years in stillwater william settled down on a one hundred and sixty acre homestead in grant township", "a letter to his fiance christiana holcom dated january 7th one thousand eight hundred and forty nine describes the backbreaking work of an early settler", "well all about the 1st of november i built me a shanty out in the timber about one mile from my farm and one mile from mr botwell's", "and since that time i have lived in it i am cutting and hauling rails to fence our farm but eventually life did become easier for the william rutherford's", "as is evidenced by the construction of their beautiful home which still stands today", "some rooms in the home were used as an end for weary travelers between stillwater and saint paul", "the third floor had another use entirely", "third floor of the old westford house was used as a dance hall and they'd have their neighborhood gatherings and do the oh i suppose square dancing and whatever types of dances that they did at that time", "and the music was a fiddling", "stories written at the time given account of a large wellstocked farm", "the daughters all skilled in the art of housekeeping attended the affairs of the household", "ever ready with a kind word and a helping hand to minister to the wants of the many who find shelter beneath their hospitable roof", "it was said that william rutherford was a very kindhearted man who had one failing", "he would take oats when the stove pipe came down on a cold morning", "in spite of that fault william managed to do all he could for the neighborhood including the donation of the home cemetery now called the rutherford cemetery", "when the first death occurred they naturally had to find a burial ground and william had built a shanty as he a log shanty as he referred to it it must have been sometime in one thousand eight hundred and forty eight or forty nine", "and when he went to michigan to marry and bring back his bride he found that the a log house had been burned", "i'm not sure if we know how i think there's some legend that the indians may have burned it but we you know we don't know", "and then he decided to donate that for a burial ground", "legend has it that the sign over the gate is william's very own signature", "he and most of his neighbors are now laid to rest there", "besides rutherford masterman ramsman ferocious newman taft paolo", "it seems that a giving nature was a family trait", "for brother james rutherford leased a school site for district seven without charge to the community", "the first school district was organized in one thousand eight hundred and fifty five and the first school house built one year later", "an interesting note to education in those early years a man was hired to teach in the winter while a woman was hired for the summer months", "the man was needed to control the older farm boys who only attended during the four winter months", "james and elizabeth rutherford and their children ran a large dairy with quite a large stock of poultry on a farm just down the road from his brothers", "over the years the original thirty six square miles of grant township was broken down and split into many different cities and towns", "in one thousand nine hundred and eighteen part of grant was formed into lincoln town as is evidenced by this picture of the lincoln town grade school", "early in one thousand nine hundred and thirty one the need for yet another split in this section of washington county began to develop momentum", "this time residents were urging the incorporation of a town to be known as that name had been selected because it was the last streetcar stop on the line", "was officially voted into existence august 7th one thousand nine hundred and thirty one", "in one thousand nine hundred and seventy two eventually took over what was remaining of lincoln town", "wheelerknee birchwood and dalewood we're all part of the original grand township", "the names and faces have changed since the early days of grant township but the purity and vision of their community yet remains"], "name": ["Grant_History/Grant_History/Grant_History_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Grant_History/Grant_History/Grant_History_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "Grant_History/Grant_History/Grant_History_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "Grant_History/Grant_History/Grant_History_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "Grant_History/Grant_History/Grant_History_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "Grant_History/Grant_History/Grant_History_DOT_flac_00005.flac", "Grant_History/Grant_History/Grant_History_DOT_flac_00006.flac", "Grant_History/Grant_History/Grant_History_DOT_flac_00007.flac", "Grant_History/Grant_History/Grant_History_DOT_flac_00008.flac", "Grant_History/Grant_History/Grant_History_DOT_flac_00009.flac", "Grant_History/Grant_History/Grant_History_DOT_flac_00010.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "Gvtvnews-GVTVNEWS021411NCTV11Episode978Part2717.flac", "identifier": "Gvtvnews-GVTVNEWS021411NCTV11Episode978Part2717-4", "text_document_id": "Gvtvnews-GVTVNEWS021411NCTV11Episode978Part2717.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [6133, 7050, 3120, 10588, 1702, 5990, 1840, 10470, 7090, 4090, 9580, 4707, 3346, 12107, 6140, 4906, 4274, 3400, 11010, 7630, 6520, 8710, 8180, 5587, 5439, 4015, 9479, 2200, 5030, 3900, 8743, 2558, 5732, 6398, 9911, 15558, 8546, 5170, 2097, 9983, 4541, 10669, 11470, 2730, 3797, 3226, 1487, 12860, 6250, 3380, 5115, 5935, 1070, 3370, 7713, 833, 7575, 4201, 6961, 6090, 6100, 8040, 8665, 5000, 4770, 3500, 6460, 13730, 4843, 4703, 10994, 5530, 4827, 5020, 14363, 6057, 4983, 6830, 3853, 5835, 11102, 7630, 5461, 11169, 3457, 3922, 10381, 4227, 5300, 20746, 6110, 1120, 7380, 2420, 2460, 9793, 1251, 3230], "label": ["in today's local news headlines area artists under arrest man in custody on suspicion of attempted murder charge", "nevada city mayor says look at outsourcing for police and harrison simmons say better force not different force", "and pet photo day to benefit disabled child", "in today's first local story written by kyle megan of the union and alta sierre man was in critical condition friday in a roseville hospital after he was allegedly beaten with a wooden log on thursday", "james turner seventy five", "was found unconscious by a friend thursday evening at alta sierra airport after apparently suffering a head trauma", "said nevada county sheriff keith royal", "he was recovering friday in sutter roseville hospital where he was transported by air after he was discovered cody feiler thirty also was of alta sierra", "a man was in custody with police on thursday night on suspicion of attempted murder in connection with the incident", "feiler was wellknown musician and painter in the local arts community", "at three hundred pm thursday an alta sierra resident from the eighteen thousand block of norlene way near the airstrip called nine hundred and eleven to report feiler had allegedly been vandalizing his property and making death threats", "feiler had allegedly pulled the mans address sign out of the ground and destroyed a solar light", "he was making some very bizarre statements at that time royal said", "he talked about meeting with god and how he had beaten someone up and found a gold sword under a rock feiler returned to a home he is staying at on norlene where deputies found him naked in a bathtub at about three hundred and thirty pm", "for his own protection and others sheriff deputies took feiler into protective custody at that time", "they transported feiler to sierra nevada memorial hospital in grass valley for an evaluation", "initial testing shows he was not under the influence of any substances", "meanwhile shortly after four pm a friend of turner's received a call from him", "he sounded stressed and winded and said he would meet her at his alta sierra home royal said it is likely turner had already been attacked by that time but was still able to make a call", "when turner's friend went to his home at about six pm she didn't see turner and walked to the alta sierra airport on norlene way where he often walks", "at about seven hundred and fifteen pm she found turner on the ground near the runway suffering from apparent head trauma and called for an ambulance", "once there rescuers determined turner's injuries were not consistent with those of someone who fell to the ground", "investigators followed blood droplets to a wood pile and believe they found a log there used to strike turner on the face and head", "armed with this information sheriff's deputies questioned feiler in connection with the incident", "he made admissions to injuring this individual royal added", "a subsequent search of feiler's home turned up clothes with blood on them", "at that point deputies arrested feiler on the charge of attempted murder and took him to the wayne brown correctional facility in nevada city for questioning", "feiler was booked into the jail around three am", "after questioning and was in custody on the nobail charge as of friday afternoon", "messages left with feiler's family for comment were not returned friday", "feiler previously ran an art studio in grass valley from two thousand and eight to early last year at the st joseph's cultural center said director joseph guida", "and a story written by trina kliest of the union", "is nevada city getting the best police service for the money its spending", "could it get the desired level of service for less even if that means letting another agency take over city policing", "city leaders wouldn't discuss the matter when a proposal to outsource policing was offered two weeks ago and they disagree on how to move forward to address concerns about policing that have been raised", "mayor robert bergman wants to take a look at policing in the nevada county seat present service what people want what they're willing to pay for and bring back for discussion the possibility that someone else could do it better than the nevada city police department", "you get the information and then you figure out what to do said bergman who added he hopes to place the topic on a city council agenda in the nearterm", "the next city council meeting is set for feb 24th and the agenda will be set next week", "others on the council disagree", "councilwoman sally harris supports the city's present course which is to focus on concerns about loitering especially on commercial street and that street's public parking lot", "those are the only areas of concern about policing that she has heard residents raise she said", "a presentation on the city's options for addressing loitering including along broad street and in calanan park is expected to be heard by the council on may 11th", "councilwoman reinette senum wants the city to look at policing in a holistically way and see how the department can development better relationships with residents and business owners", "both support maintaining the city's own department", "council members david mckay and duane strawser were not be reached for comment", "i do not want our police department to be outsourced senum said", "i support a better police department", "this is an opportunity to reinvent ourselves and be better nevada city's public safety program is projected to cost the town more than twelve million in the two hundred and one thousand and eleven fiscal year employing sixteen people", "actual costs are higher state and federal grants pay for three sworn officers police chief lou trovato said", "and trovato has given the city what he calls a bargain in his own salary", "the man with forty four years of law enforcement experience is working for a halftime salary of forty eight thousand", "but i work with more then i work more than twenty hours a week he added", "soon the bargain will end", "more than a year ago trovato told the council of his intention to retire", "approaching seventy and already marking fifteen years with the city he would like to step aside in about a year but is willing to stay on as needed", "level service", "the nevada city police force has at least one patrol officer on duty at all times plus supervisory officers trovato said", "overnight shifts are some overlap mainly when they close bars", "one of the officers is dedicated to working with the nevada county narcotics task force and his salary is paid largely from state and federal grants", "those funds are in jeopardy as legislators at both levels try to cut costs county sheriff keith royal said", "two more officers are paid through a federal stimulus grant that will end in a little over a year from now trovato added", "in addition to the sworn officers two community service officers walk their beats their wages come from parking meter revenue and are not counted in the department budget", "the city already contracts with the county sheriff's office to receive emergency calls and dispatch officers at a cost of one hundred and twenty thousand yearly", "dispatchers fielded five thousand seven hundred and sixty five calls from nevada city in two thousand and ten", "according to figures compiled by communications manager andrew trygg", "of those two thousand seven hundred and four less than half were calls for service", "the rest were calls from officers themselves who check in with dispatch on a regular basis as situations arise", "the most common calls included those for disturbances such as arguments noise and barking dogs three hundred and sixty five calls suspicious circumstances three hundred and three alarms going off one hundred and seventy seven calls and nine hundred and eleven calls one hundred and forty three according to trygg's figures", "nevada city also contracts with grass valley for animal control services costing about forty eight thousand yearly", "costs for the present level of service already are low councilwoman harris said", "public safety is expected to consume about thirty nine percent of the current fiscal year's budget and that is in line with such costs of other towns and lower than many she added", "nevada city has seen a reduction in the taxes that fund city operations leading to layoffs and furloughs in recent years", "but city staff believes that decline will level off and revenue will start slowly growing again", "that implies we don't need to make drastic cuts unless we're willing to really cut the services harris added", "if we're willing to do that then there's all kinds of options but at this point i don't think our budget requires it and i don't think our citizens want less public safety service improved policing is high on the council's list of important issues", "but having another agency provide that service doesn't guarantee that is going to be cheaper than it is now she added", "we're already the lowestpaid agency in the county trovato said", "most sheriff's deputies earn in the range of fifty three thousand to nearly sixty five thousand yearly plus benefits according to the county wage scale", "an officer in nevada city makes nearly fifty three thousand five hundred plus benefits", "lieutenants and captains at the county level make significantly more than the city chief's annual salary of seventy nine thousand", "and bergman says a proposal from the grass valley police department to handle policing in nevada city was offered as a result of a strategic planning meeting for nevada city council in july two thousand and ten", "strawser now vice mayor worked with foster and undersheriff richard kimball to get information on what it would cost to outsource public safety", "foster's proposal would save money by eliminating supervisory positions and consolidating other activities", "sheriff royal did not submit a formal proposal but if he were to he would also save on supervisors and take advantage of services already in his department such as investigations", "both foster and royal said their agencies could save the city money", "of course it comes down to what they nevada city leaders want royal added", "the surprise to me is the city council chose not even to review the proposal before making a decision to not consider outsourcing their police service foster added", "considering such an idea doesn't make it a done deal mayor bergman said", "we're down to looking at cost savings and the biggest of the big expenses is police he said", "the city should determine what is the present level of service explore what people want figure out what it costs find out whether residents are willing to pay more adjust the level of service to the peoples desire and revenue available then look to costsaving measures including outsourcing we need to generate the information to determine whether outsourcing makes sense bergman added", "turning leaf studios and grass valley will have a valentine's pet photo day one thousand am to five hundred and thirty pm monday", "well that's today", "for a donation of an amount for photographer michelle kumler will offer a fifteen minute portrait session for pet owners and their beloved furry friends", "session will include an eight by ten color print", "photo event is a fundraiser for santos kline", "a local youth diagnosed with a number of disabilities including mental retardation a brain cyst tourette syndrome mild autism and asperger's and more", "and that's it today", "thanks a lot for watching and we'll talk to you tomorrow"], "name": ["Gvtvnews-GVTVNEWS021411NCTV11Episode978Part2717-4/Gvtvnews-GVTVNEWS021411NCTV11Episode978Part2717-4/Gvtvnews-GVTVNEWS021411NCTV11Episode978Part2717_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Gvtvnews-GVTVNEWS021411NCTV11Episode978Part2717-4/Gvtvnews-GVTVNEWS021411NCTV11Episode978Part2717-4/Gvtvnews-GVTVNEWS021411NCTV11Episode978Part2717_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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afternoon chair", "aloha and ms gladys baisa", "good afternoon chair", "aloha and we have mr don guzman", "good afternoon chair", "good afternoon", "and nonvoting but here visiting with us today is mr don couch", "good afternoon chair", "aloha", "be excused for today will be vice chair of this committee ricky hocomma and also stacy covello and council chair mike white will be joining us shortly", "from the administration we have corporation counsel rochelle thompson aloha and our staff legislative analyst jordan molina and also legislative secretary raina yapp", "and let me check in with our district offices", "in hana don lono are you there yes good afternoon chair this don lono at the hana office", "aloha don", "lanai ms denise fernandez", "good afternoon chair this is denise fernandez on lanai", "and amola kaim is elelkon", "good afternoon chair", "this is elelkon amola kaim", "thank you ladies for being there and members today we have three items on the agenda iem twenty seven restoration of maui's coral reefs", "iem forty termination of license agreement affecting lots one hundred and forty three one hundred and forty four and one hundred and forty five of the pukalani lots at kehua in pukalani", "iem forty two grant of sewer line easement to hospice maui incorporated which is in wailuku", "and at this time i shall set the parameters for testimony three minutes to testify please state your name and the organization you might be representing", "and also please stick to speaking on the items that are listed on the agenda today", "and at this time i shall open the floor for public testimony without objections", "no objections", "thank you very much so ordered", "and first on our list in the gallery to testify is mr greg lagoi", "testifying on iem forty two", "aloha everyone my name is greg lagoi", "i'm the chief executive officer of hospice maui", "hospice maui is sitting atop county leased land", "we leased from the county", "we are building a a five bed hospice residence", "and at the beginning of the process our engineer had gotten assurances from the department of health that we would be able to have our own individual wastewater system on site a septic system", "we're on sand cause we're on the sand hills", "during the lengthy process that also involved the environmental assessment we had to do the department of health changed and said that we needed to find a sewer access", "there is no sewer on mahalani street but across mahalani street from us is another county owned lot that is leased to lokahi pacific", "and on that lot there is a sewer lateral that we would have access to", "and so we are asking for the county to grant an easement to another branch of the county", "i'm not sure to whom but housing and human concerns is the branch that deals with our lease", "and then the easement would go across mahalani street and across the lot that is leased to lokahi pacific", "to my knowledge there's no controversy or issues at all involved", "and i'm happy to answer any questions that have to do with this particular question", "thank you", "thank you", "thank you mr lagoi", "members any need for clarification of our testifier seeing none thank you for your presence today", "next testifier in the gallery is robin newbold speaking on iem twenty seven", "and she is chair of the maui nui marine resource council", "aloha kedko i'm robin newbold chair of the maui nui resource council", "thank you madam chair for having us back to talk to your committee", "and i want to thank all of the committee members", "it's good to see you again it's been awhile", "so thank you for being here and for your interest in what's happening on our coral reefs", "since you passed the resolution to save protect and enhance the coral reefs of maui nui the maui coral reef recovery team has been busy researching twenty five years of research that's been done on the reefs", "and unfortunately has found that the reefs have been declining for the past twenty five years", "they haven't gone back further than that but in all likelihood it's even worse than we think", "excuse me", "today teken hammond who's the chair", "i'm sorry she's the coordinator of implementing the coral reef recovery plan will be talking to you about the outcomes of that study", "it's a real simple study we got it down to two pages one page front and back and then we have references so you can see all the different research studies that we cited that took into account as we came up with this information and on the back of that there's a page listing all the team members", "so all that information is available to you", "to make it even easier we did a onepage summary of all that", "so you can see at the top that the issues that we found that are going on with the coral reefs and then we didn't want to leave it at that", "we wanted to have recommendations for how we can turn this around", "how we can work with you and the county and the state to turn things around reverse this trim", "so i was gonna introduce members of the panel but since they're not sitting there yet we'll let them introduce themselves", "i would like to say one more thing though", "and that is that as part of our study we would like to find out how much people know before we talk to them about the status of maui's reefs and then how much they know afterwards", "see if talking to people is really effective", "so we have a survey and i believe that that's with your packet and on the front as the presurvey", "and of course ideally you would take that and you're just helping us with our database", "if you have a chance to go over that and then a post survey of what you thought before and what you thought after we talked with you", "so with that i'm gonna", "any questions otherwise i'll move onto the next person", "thank you ms newbold", "does that concludes your testimony members any need for clarification seeing none thank you ms newbold", "and the next testifier is tamara paulton speaking on iem twenty seven", "aloha chair and committee members", "thank you for this opportunity to testify today", "i'm in full support of the maui nui marine resource council packet and i just wanted to say i go in the ocean almost every day and it's really bad and having been alive for that long and i've never seen it this bad", "almost every time i put my face in the water i see a bleach coral in my area", "the last few years we've had more brown water runoff events than i can count", "if you've ever been to kapalua bay in the last thirty years you'll notice a huge difference within just the last five years", "it used to be so many collector urchins that you couldn't even count them all now you have to look for them", "and the diversity of fish is just not there", "i hate to speak negatively about honolua bay but being that it's a marine preserve you're not seeing the numbers and the amounts of fish that should reflect the marine preserve at this time", "we're working on getting it better", "and that being said there's not much that we individually can do for climate change and we can try and change the way that business does business", "i read a report that people that are making salt ocean salt not even refined iodized salt are finding plastic in their salt nowadays because there's so much little pieces of plastic in the ocean", "i can try forward you that at a later date", "i wasn't prepared but that was sent to me by a world expert toxicologist craig downs that you can't even make salt off the ocean anymore without finding little pieces of plastic", "so i would urge you to take action and try and stop the sale of microbeads in our products that they sell in this island environment", "try to stop the sale of sunscreens that have oxybenzone or ebobenzone", "they're just small little things that we can do promote the use of rash guards", "and it will make a big difference if everybody gets on the same page and makes our oceans and our marine life a priority", "thank you", "thank you ms paulton", "members any need for clarification of our testifier see none", "thank you for your time ms paulton", "okay and let's check in with our district offices", "in hana ms lono do you have any testifiers ms lono hana", "hello are you there yes this is don lono at the hana office and there's no one waiting to testify", "thank you", "in lonai ms fernandez anyone there to testify there's no one waiting to testify on lonai", "thank you and on molokai ms elkon anyone there to testify there's no one her on molokai waiting to testify", "thank you ladies for being there", "and anyone else in the gallery here wanting to testify please come down to the podium", "i don't see anyone", "so members without objections i shall now close the floor for public testimony", "no objections", "thank you very much", "and let's get onto our first item and this will be iem twenty seven and this is the", "and it's in regards to the resolution one thousand five hundred and nineteen that we adopted on february 18th two thousand and fifteen which we the council recognized the importance of saving protecting and enhancing the reef ecosystems of maui county for their cultural ecological subsistence and economic benefits", "and as we had our testifiers come we've invited back maui nui marine resource council to serve as resource persons for this committee's discussion here today", "and last time they were here was nine months ago on february 2nd two thousand and fifteen", "so i know we will probably have to set the room up for all of them to come and sit with us", "let me read the county communication", "it is county communication thirteen thousand three hundred and three from myself transmitting a proposed rezo relating to coral reef recovery plan for maui county and correspondence was dated december 16th two thousand and thirteen from myself transmitting a report from maui coral reef recovery team entitled a practical plan for the technical and cultural restoration of maui's coral reefs", "and this correspondence dated october 28th two thousand and fifteen from robin newbold chair of maui nui marine resource council and discuss the", "wait", "oh sorry", "maui nui's transmitting report entitled maui's coral reefs declining trends1993 to two thousand and fifteen so with that members we shall take a brief recess", "so we may set up the floor to bring down our panelists and have a presentation and some discussion", "we are now in a brief recess", "infrastructure environmental management committee please reconvene", "and thank you panelists for being here", "and let me just briefly say who we have available", "we have teagan hammon maui coral reef recovery plan coordinator", "i guess their names are pretty boldly shown in front of them", "mike fields senior scientist emiratis us geological survey", "aloha thank you for being here", "ekulu lindsey polanui hugh community manage makai area", "russell sparks maui division of aquatic resources and mark decos director hawaii association for marine education and research", "and today's discussion we shall be given a presentation and then we can follow up with questions and definitely some discussions as a committee with our panelists here today", "so i shall turn the floor over i guess to yourself teagan you're gonna take the lead on this one yes", "okay do we have microphones yeah i think it's a portable that can hand around", "can you guys hear me great okay", "thank you so much everybody for having us here and your attention on this really important topic", "my name is teagan hammond", "i work for a maui nui marine resource council coordinating the implementation of the coral recovery team", "and i really sit here on behalf of much greater minds than myself that represent the members of the council and the recovery team", "their names are listed on the back of the reef report that you received", "and i encourage you to familiarize yourself with who the members are as i'll do my humble best to represent their voices here", "the recovery team and the council endeavored in the last few months to write a report which summarizes a diverse set of data over the last fifteen years of what's happening in our reefs", "that's really hard for you guys to go out and find all that information and summarize it in one place", "and so the report that we've just presented with you represents that summary and we encourage you guys to use this as a resource and offer it to you as a resource that you guys can use to quote as you're talking and having your conversations with folks as well", "appreciate your feedback if you have any in ways that we can help make this more useful for you in the future", "let's see", "so for each of the speakers here before you we've assigned ourselves to address one of the five bullets of recommendations that have been made", "mine will be starting at the end", "number five to promote a collaborative approach to marine resource management around maui", "and this involves having briefings and building partnerships and lines of communication with each of you including developers and everybody in our community", "today we're gonna challenge you with these facts and provide solutions to discuss and identify ways forward we can work together on", "and we really hope to open up continued discussions with each of you guys for your input on how we can make these solutions more practical and realistic in our daytoday", "so quickly just going through the report as robin really greatly mentioned we have a summary that's just a single page and it has the five bullet points of the issues that we're facing and recommended solutions which each of the speakers will address", "so i'm quickly going to read these for you", "during the past two decades nearly one quarter of maui's corals have been lost of the site surveyed with half of maui's reef sites currently experiencing declining health", "as a note these are very highly advanced rates of decline", "this is not normal", "since one thousand nine hundred and ninety five the biomass or mount by weight of culturally and economically important reef fish species found on maui has declined significantly", "we are now second in line behind oahu as the lowest in the state", "the average amount of reef fish found around maui's reefs is second lowest of all the islands in the state", "that's the third point", "nearly ninety of water quality samples taken around maui in the period of two thousand and twelve to two thousand and fourteen have exceeded state water quality standards for turbidity nutrients and or bacteria", "as you all know water quality is extremely important for the health of our reefs", "the economic value of our state's coral reefs was estimated in two thousand and two at ten billion", "so this is a very important issue for all factors", "the value that american people hold for our reefs in hawaii is up at three thousand three hundred and fifty seven billion", "so these impacts are extremely important for us to address now", "the three primary drivers are the final bullet on the issues we're facing", "the impacts that we're seeing are due to introduction of landbased pollutants and sediments overfishing coupled with poor regulation and enforcement", "and the third is insufficient resting sites providing adequate time for recovery from the stresses that our oceans receive", "excuse me the next section the five bullet points of recommended health that each of these speakers will address is the need for building capacity at a community level to engage communities through the cmma process", "equally we'll talk more about that", "enhancing enforcement of current rules and regulations within maui's coastal waters is something that fishermen themselves as well call for", "expanding the network of coral reef areas under protection around maui with a target of protecting twenty by two thousand and twenty", "right now we're at less than two", "comparatively to the world this is very low than other places in the nation", "implement policies and practices to reduce flow of sediment and nutrients", "mark will address that and promoting a collaborative approach to marine resource management around maui", "i'm hopeful that our conversations can continue and we can keep figuring out ways forward", "this photo is actually where tamara was discussing", "this is fleming's beach park at a recent brown water event", "this photo is taken after a stop work order was lifted for a project moka and as you can see it's very alarming not a great place to get in the water", "with that i'm gonna pass the mic", "these pictures up here just show you guys the reef report", "and as you all have copies i'm gonna skip by them and pass the mic to dr mike field", "thank you", "thank you t", "aloha and thank you for the opportunity to sit here today and talk to you", "in brief what i'm going to do is show you a series of slides and talk about many of the things you know but i want to review why coral reefs are so important", "what's happening to them today and very importantly what the important actions are that you can take to change the direction of the way things are going", "so the role of coral reefs first of all biodiversity an extremely important function that they provide all over the world", "they cover only a half a percent of the sea floor but twenty five of all marine species", "food source a primary source of protein for most island nations and a nursery for the commercial species this one off shore", "coastal resilience protecting against tsunamis and large storms and there are other roles that coral reefs play as well", "cultural and recreational and there are many many they are very important", "so what we know is that there's a worldwide crisis going on with coral reefs", "it started in the mid 80s and it started accelerating in the mid nineties", "there are many causes but the main cause is by far are unsustainable fishing which moves the larger herbivores from the population reefs", "landbased pollution and that really means sediment runoff from island watersheds and now climate change", "these are the big three", "there are other things that can harm reefs but they're just bumps and cuts and bruises compared to these are the three that are starting to wipe out coral reefs around the world", "and now we know this problem has arrived in hawaii", "it hadn't for a while because there are colder waters here but now of course runoff and sedimentation has been a problem for a number of years", "there are some pictures from south molokai and the west maui but more to the telling of the pictures that have appeared recently in the press the one on the left is from the seattle times", "this is not just hawaii news this is a worldwide news what's been happening here", "the other pictures from iconic places of maui", "molokini and olowalu and many many others", "why this matters and i think everybody here is well aware of it but the point is that dead reefs are quickly flattened", "here's a picture of reefs that are bleached from the great barrier reef in australia and then destroyed", "when they're destroyed sediment covers them", "the reef will not come back it is gone", "and this is a lesson that there are places i could show you on the north shore of lanai where the reefs are gone and they're not coming back", "same thing on south shore of molokai", "so we lose probably forever", "habitat proficient invertebrates barriers for storm protection sites for family and community recreation", "the result of this is the economic and cultural value will be greatly reduced within one generation", "we're not talking about the year two thousand and sixty two thousand and eighty two thousand and fifty", "this is happening now and it's going to happen fast", "the chair of dnir suzanne case recently made the statement that if we fail to protect the coral reefs and lose them negative impacts on the overall ocean ecosystem and on hawaii's economy", "so let's look at these just for a minute", "the maps up here are the four islands and maui nui show you red and yellow", "the yellow is more than ten but less than fifty live coral", "the red is fifty to ninety", "you won't find maps like this in florida or most places in the caribbean", "they think ten is a lot of coral coverage", "hawaii is very lucky but the numbers are changing and they're changing right before our eyes", "so what i've done here on this map is map out nine reef tracks that total almost fifteen thousand acres a really enriched coral", "three south molokai two lanai and the other four maui", "kolabi even though it shows red recent mapping there shows that those percentages are overstated and there's not much coral in those locations", "so we look at these and we say that there's a lot there", "it's a very complex very rich reefs and there's a lot of it", "but they're all starting to suffer these impacts", "what can we do about it we can look at it and start to protect areas of it", "there are many ways to offer protection from communitybased up to mpas but protect it is the only way that it's gonna survive", "what we know about it these reefs is", "we have have enough information you have enough information to make intelligent decisions today", "we know the percentage of coral cover on the reefs", "we know the detailed topography we know the fish populations", "we can make maps that show the distribution of coral where it is and what's being used and how to best treat it in the future", "give you an example of that here is the iconic olowalu reef track and the map above it shows the results of some computer models", "we've also done actual satellite test models during the larval times when the corals are spawning the current flow from olowalu along west maui and over to molokai", "if olowalu reef dies so might west maui and part of molokai", "it is a seed as a mother reef for many of these other reefs", "so given the ongoing and increasing threats to mai nui coral reef complex can anything be done and we would say yes", "reducing all stressors other stressors", "over fishing and runoff and climate", "if we can't stop climate we can at least take the other two out of the picture", "give the corals a chance establish a safe place where they can battle the climate change as best they can", "setting aside fifteen to twenty or more so the fish can grow and and corals can fight warming is the only way", "this has been recognized worldwide", "most countries have anywhere from twenty to fifty of their coastal waters protected now and it's essential", "i can't emphasize this enough there is no other choice", "if corals are gonna survive warming the other threats have to be taken out of the picture", "and just to give you an idea of when people worried about protection this is a map of olowalu and there's a little box maybe not even very visible there that represents fifteen", "so it's a very very large reef", "and if you set aside fifteen there's still a lot of reef that is available for all the uses that we like to think of", "marine protected areas are important for fish as well as for the corals", "and this plot from alan freelander shows very clearly that there areas where there's pristine seas shown that the stars have much higher biomass than areas that aren't", "and the areas that aren't the small green boxes which include hawaii and most of the caribbean and western pacific those small boxes make up more than ninety nine of the world's reefs", "the large fish populations have been decimated", "and so go the coral reefs in following them", "in hawaii the open to fishing and partial protection shows significantly lower biomass or fish population than no take and communitybased protected areas", "we know enough to design protection areas now we know that full protection from fishing or community manage is essential", "we need a range of habitat complexities that need to take in consideration larval trajectories and where population spawn", "we need a variety of habitats from shoreline to deep including sand channels rocky areas everything's possible", "low of algae cover and representative wave exposures", "and finally i would add that mpas are effective tool for fisheries and conservation and are essential for coral reefs", "they still only account for less than one of the oceans but every country on earth is starting to embrace them", "mpas are most effective when fishing pressure's high nearby and these have to be scaled for human needs", "and i would end by saying that mpas will give you more fish and larger fish", "and i would say that if they don't then you take them apart and don't use them anymore but they will", "they'll give more fish and larger fish", "whether they will say coral reefs we don't know but we have to try because right now the reefs are not responding to all the pressures and we have to remove those that we can remove", "thank you", "thank you mr field", "aloha", "aloha", "i'll be speaking about the building the capacity and increase the number of community managed marine areas around maui to implement the coral reef recovery strategies through collaborative efforts", "so this is my backyard polanui hiu", "polanui is the name of the ahupuaa that we live in", "and the idea of bringing back balance to this place started with my dad at lindsey and my son kaelo riding a canoe looking at what was under the water", "the seed was planted then that we should do something", "and a few of us met with the local marine managed area the fijian consort that came in", "we met with them and found out what they had done", "so a bunch of us started to community manage hakai area and we have since grown into a network", "roughly speaking our efforts here at polanui have been ongoing for about five years", "and it goes from where pumana pool is to between lahana shores in five hundred and five front street and it's roughly a half mile off coastline two hundred and twenty two acres out to about sixty feet in depth", "and bringing back down as to this area and really understanding a lot of the stressors to it has been real challenging for the last five years", "so we are working towards the communitybased subsistence fishing area designation through dlnr and trying to add a a rest period about a fiveyear rest period to bring back the size and biodiversity of what used to be", "and outreaching to the many different groups that we have here in la haina and throughout all of maui nui and anybody future leaders to bring back balance and to have them understand why it's important to take care of these things because they were there long before us", "we've since created a maui nui makai network that includes six different groups", "we have namamu mules and kipahulu ohana in hana", "ourselves polanui in lahaina as well as wailuku simeme in kahalui harbor", "and you can see the points right here on the map", "so all of us are working towards bringing balance and that balance really is us and the humbug we make an ocean in the mountains", "so correcting these things we can do all the legwork in the ocean and on land", "but it's not without the political will that we can be successful", "so the comanagement throughout the process is an important thing for us to work towards", "haena has gotten great support", "and they're the first on the books for a cvsfa designation", "their mayor had supported them throughout the process", "so that was one of my asks here is to have the support from you folks as well as the mayor to move forward", "and this is what we've done", "it's awesome to have a plan but the majority of these plans get put on a shelf", "i represent the people who can do something with that plan make it happen so that future generations can enjoy what i had as a kid because right now it's barren", "get fish", "what kind of small we need more fish", "aloha", "my name is russell sparks", "i'm with the division of aquatic resources", "i've been working here on maui with the division for about eighteen years now", "and what i'm going to do today is i want to just quickly go through some relevant information about maui's reefs", "talk about some of our current management successes many of which probably happened because of support from the county council and the mayor at the time that we moved them forward", "and i hope cause i imagine a lot of you are questioning well this is state jurisdiction not county jurisdiction so how do we help well simple as resolutions or letters of support go a long way to the very confrontational controversial rulemaking process oftentimes so simple things like that could have a huge impact as well", "so i'll go through some of what we've been doing on maui", "i'll touch briefly on compliance and other changes social changes things that sizikola that talked about within the communities that at least give me hope", "and i think it gives a lot of people hope that we might actually move forward", "so as dr field mentioned there our ongoing stresses with our research just a few some disease bleaching algae blooms covering the reef", "these are graphs that simplify greatly coral cover on several of our reefs so basically all they're looking at is the percent coral cover", "and when you take a twodimensional picture of the reef over time and you can see on west maui in particular where we're doing a lot of management efforts there seems to be a fairly substantial decline over the last couple of decades", "other areas of concern maliah and also papalula point on the north shore showing what we describe as a total collapse of our reef ecosystems and the reasons for that vary", "i don't have time to go into it", "usually takes me a couple of hours to delve into this in detail", "so we'll avoid that but i do want to point out cause we're going to talk about resilience in the face of stresses and negative impacts on our reef", "i want to point out the bottom graph which is hana point just in wai'ahi canal natural area reserve", "in two thousand and five there was a bloom of crown of thorns sea stars and those guys came through and they munched pretty much most of the coral down", "so you can see a coral decline that went from in upper twenty probably like twenty five or twenty six down to less than ten", "down to around five in some places", "but then over the subsequent nine years or so came right back up to where it was before", "so the point there is reefs can be resilient", "they can bounce back they can deal with these stresses but ahi canal is a reserve", "there's no efficient allowance", "so there's very healthy marine fish resources", "it's also an area isolated from a lot of the land impacts that we have particularly in areas where people live", "so that helped that reef ecosystem bounce back from that stress", "moving forward today this is a picture from a molokini looking out along some of the salt benches there", "every single coral along that area is bleached", "this is a picture taken at olowalu of one of the really large old low corals", "some of these corals are four to five hundred years old", "and when you see them bleach out like this and then subsequently current photos have shown this coral and others nearly completely overgrown with algae", "so you're looking at a coral that right now what it's experiencing today is worse than anything it's experienced over the last four to five hundred years", "where we're throwing more at these things now than they've seen over that period of time", "and that's really alarming really concerning", "so bleaching this year was the worst ever recorded in hawaii and you've heard this already", "this is actually a new major stress for our corals up to this time last year there was some bleaching but this year was much worse", "so up until about now we've heard about it", "we've worried about it we've talked about it but now we're experiencing it", "and the longterm survival of these corals is gonna depend quite a bit on the ability for us to reduce these overall stressors things that dr field talked about already", "what i want to talk about then to give you a little idea of what's possible is the herbivore fishery management area kahekili", "prior to implementing this site we were seeing coral cover that was up around fifty sixty rapidly declined down to the 30s", "and we were noticing periodic blooms of algae which was providing probably the majority of the stress that these reefs overgrowing the coral causing stress knocking it back", "just to give you a picture of that if you started in one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine when we started our cramp surveys down to two thousand and seven there you can see how the algae periodically filled in and just get a general sense of what that decline and coral cover is", "you look at the coral is becoming a little smaller and patchier and separated out", "the other thing we noticed there was that fish biomass shown in this graph is about half of what it is on other sites around maui but also the maui sites are about half of what they are in some of the more pristine areas on the big island et cetera big concern there though is the orangy graph which is the parrotfish biomass was extremely low in this area", "with that information we set up the kahekili herbivore fisheries management area as a fisheries management area which prohibited the taking a three families of fish surgeonfish parrotfish and ninui or chubs prohibited the taking of sea urchins and prohibited fish feeding so that the fish would eat the algae rather than the peas and the other things given to them", "we continue to allow fishing", "in fact we encourage fishing", "this is not antifishing", "it's about simply the fish that are important to help protect the reef and if the reef ecosystem improves we would expect fishing to improve", "and we want fishers to experience that as well", "over a fiveyear period just looking at parrot fish these are the small body parrotfish", "there's several species but these are the ones that are are small", "they get to be a little over a foot in size and they live for about six to ten years", "you could see a rather rapid increase after the closure which is the dotted line on the left side of the graph up to nearly twice as much biomass", "and that has held more or less stable since that period when you look at large bodied parrotfish and these are actually much more important on the reef because of their size the size of their bite and the effect they have in controlling algae and stimulating other factors on the reef you see a slower increase", "these fish live longer they grow slower", "so that's to be expected up till about two thousand and thirteen", "after that point they dropped back down to what they were at baseline levels at the start of the reserve", "this is likely due to fishing", "so yes it's protected but unfortunately illegal fishing still happens", "and this is one of the biggest challenges we have in resource management is how we get compliance with the rules once we make them", "enforcement is certainly part of that", "i'm not gonna talk about enforcement cause i don't work for enforcement", "it's best to speak with them about the challenges of actually formally enforcing these rules", "but there's a lot of other things such as outreach education bringing people into the fold of all why we have these rules and why you need to comply with them", "as ekulu talked about community management as communities get more involved in the process working with us more aware of what's going on they changed the social structure as well", "so it's not acceptable to go out and poach and take fish", "it's looked down on it's shame", "so these changes take time but hopefully that's how we'll start to build compliance because knocking that back down sets us back another five years and makes it that much harder for us to get where we need to be", "short term successes with this", "coral hasn't changed much on these reefs but if you see that red line on the bottom that's crystal's carlanalogy that's the purple and pink stuff that grows on the bottom", "it's critically important on cementing our reefs together but it's also a landing pad for coral recruits", "so new coral recruits seek out this crystal's coralonology to settle and grow", "so you need to have that", "so anyway going back you can see how that has gone from nearly two up to about fourteen", "here's a picture this is what we're looking at", "you had coral in between the coral you had algae", "much of those areas now look more like this where the fleshy algae much less present but you see that purple and pink stuff on the ground setting that reef up for recovery", "so we're seeing that as an early sign that's very positive", "looking at it on a broader scale the green stuff there's the two graphs on the left are before the management went into effect and the two on the right are after", "and it just shows it on a general scale the increase in biomass of parrotfish with the green circles and then the crustal's coralanalogy is those pink circles", "so you can see how the reefs have filled in over time", "so that's just an example of what's possible as we change the ecosystem back to a more normal state on our reefs", "there's a lot of good things that have happened around maui that make maui distinct from the rest of the state", "we're the only place that has a total ban on the use of lay gillnets", "and that went into effect in two thousand and seven", "we have this kahekili herbivore fisheries management area that's showing a lot of positives and what's possible with the management", "and then more recently we implemented parrotfish and goldfish rules which include bag size and size limits", "and for parrot fish actually protect the terminal phase males of the two large species", "so if we can get compliance with these things we would expect to see more of biomass on our reefs", "and hopefully that would help provide some of that resilience", "it's not gonna do all of it though", "we do need to do just as dr field talked about we need to look at networks of marine managed areas to hedge our bets set up some of these areas for protection for the future", "community comanagement as ekulu mentioned critical things that we need to support and really help these guys out as they work through the management areas of their specific locations", "we could really use more county support with watershed management efforts", "we have the west maui ridge to reef initiative", "we've spent a lot of time and effort with numerous people including county representatives coming up with plans to deal with some of the stressors to the watershed in that area", "but it always falls back to needing more support from the county public works to maintain and manage and clean out the filters in the storm drains and things of that sort", "reuse and distribution of wastewater all of these things", "a lot of things come together where the county is a major player in how we manage our watershed", "so we just need to work better closer together in that and set these priorities", "and i'm gonna leave it at that", "i probably ran too long anyway but certainly glad to answer questions later", "thank you russell", "aloha", "thank you guys for allowing us to talk and speak to you guys today", "my name is mark decos", "i'm the director of the hawaii association for marine education and research", "and i'm just gonna touch on the landbased side of things", "we talked about the things that we can control the extraction and then the landbased pollution", "russell touched on a lot of the extraction stuff", "you've seen these photos we're seeing a lot more of these photos", "i've heard you guys are discussing this in your council meetings where we're getting much more discharge happening on the reefs", "sediment is the number one problem that's impacting our reefs that we have control over", "so i really started to look into why is this becoming more and more of a problem so sediment one hundred and one whenever there's a construction anytime you displace dirt you move vegetation development pretty much", "you're gonna allow those soils to be free to move down the mountain by wind or by by water", "so we recognize that and so we have", "we actually have pretty good laws to prevent that from entering the water", "we have the clean water act and when a developer applies for a permit they are required to get what we call the npds permit", "and the permit basically states we'll allow you to discharge but you have to meet the department of health's water quality standards right and those standards are pretty strict and if we look at what those standards are it's really hard to see there but basically their values of turbidity and nutrients and whatnot the threshold can't breach", "so we have all the laws in place to prevent that discharge from reaching the ocean", "so what is the problem well a lot of these permits we call the nps permit that allows you to go and disturb the earth they're selfmonitored", "so your requirement for compliance is to basically walk the grounds look at what we call bmps best management practices", "a lot of times they're sediment basins to capture that sediment in the water or they're silk fences", "there's a lot of different types but there's no actual monitoring of the discharge", "so if you're not monitoring what's coming out of the outflow points it really doesn't matter how well your bmps look you're still discharging impaired water", "so the difficulty here as well doh has so much of a budget so much staff", "they can't go and monitor and take samples of all of these discharge areas", "so how do we prevent that sediment which carries with it all the pollutants all the nutrients", "how do we keep at its source well they have automated monitors now so people are using them on the east coast", "and basically they're just sensors that you can put in front of a discharge area", "you can have them measure turbidity ph suspended solids", "you can add whatever sensors you want to them and you can attach a remote communicator", "basically through satellite or through a wifi signal you can send all that information in real time", "so either to the enforcement to the developer themselves", "so this is real time data that's coming in", "once they're installed you sit back sit in your office and you'll get a text message if there's a breach in one of the parameters", "very low cost once they're set up", "and like i said the current way of measuring we mentioned the water quality standards are ninety impaired in maui and just as bad in the other counties as well", "when you go and sample like they do now again it's once a month or a couple of times a year it's really hard to understand where the inputs are coming from", "doh has a mandate to manage that watershed", "you're getting inputs from development from natural sources from the ungulates disturbing the dirt", "there's a lot of different sources", "it's very hard to capture and figure out where all those sources are and develop what they call a pollutant budget", "if you set up these automators you're basically controlling and understanding what those points sources are contributing", "so there's no mystery there", "it helps doh to understand it", "and if you can look at rainfall data and very subtle changes", "if you get all of a sudden a sudden", "sometimes these basins or whatever are pretty good up until a rain threshold and then it bursts and you get a massive amount of sediment", "and just to remind the sediment once it's on the reef it's done", "you cannot mitigate after that", "you have to keep it from reaching the reef because once it's on there it gets resuspended over and over again by the wave action", "and that continues to kill and kill and kill the reef", "and any little babies can not settle on that soft bottom the coral polyps than the spawn", "so you don't get regeneration of new growth", "so again just lots of data can come in in real time very hard to go and sample during a rain event", "so a lot of times people don't get out there too long after this", "you can look on your computer any time", "you can get very sophisticated where these are longterm permanent systems that need some extra structure", "if there's theft situations you can put them in", "you have different ways of dealing with issues where these are remote stations that could be tampered with", "now the question is who does this how is it paid for and all that so my suggestion would be through the application the mpds permit", "you pay a fee so you could have a fee of fund the mitigation fund that helps with the monitoring so a third party", "so just like if you were to get an appraisal on your house we all like to get our own appraiser to basically elevate that value", "but now the banks you're not allowed", "we have a third party", "the appraisers have to meet a certain criteria", "you get them they do the evaluation", "so when a project and we're gonna have incredible growth here on maui in the next decade", "so there's gonna be a lot of more opportunities of events like this", "they're gonna be more and more common", "so how do we stop that from happening so if they implement a fee that goes and allows the establishment of these automated sensors you just basically park them out at the discharge spots", "and then when there's a breach that occurs the developer's notified immediately they can take care of it", "maybe there's a stop work order until they get it under control", "and the developer's paying for that service", "so there's no extra budget needed", "there's no extra manpower needed by doh", "and you understand exactly where and when these events are happening", "thinking a bit outside the box there are ways we can get a handle on these major problems", "and again the stuff that we can control is the stuff that we should be focused in doing something about now", "thank you", "thank you", "and any further person going to present or that's the end of the presentation okay", "well thank you very much panelists", "and at this point members we can open up the floor at this point for questions and answers discussion and all of the above", "mr couch", "well i'm not really a member so let them go first", "okay", "yes mr carroll", "thank you chair", "and thank you for bringing this forward today", "and all of the participants over here are truly appreciated", "what you've said over here when you bring forward is known and it's been known for a long time", "unfortunately the political will has not been out there especially at the state level", "it's disturbing the county we do what we can to control the pollution that you see on the screen", "we have the laws our problems was enforcement and it needs to go further", "but we need more support from the state", "the state needs to be more involved", "i'll give you two examples", "turtle many years ago in the 70s me and a group of people trying to get the commercial selling in with turtle to be illegal", "about six people went up there and said it's all right to sell turtle we stayed back down until the feds came inside and stopped it", "there has been no political will up there for the state to do what's necessary to preserve our environment", "when it came up to make spirit fish legal to sell we went to the state and we said hey our environment cannot take this extra load", "it's not good for anyone we went to dlnr", "dlnr would not give us the support", "they said it was too hard to enforce", "that is about as lean as you can get", "they supported the state at all levels", "all levels needs to be", "we need to get the public", "we need to get the people that are listening to this on a carpool", "we need them to go over there and support the positions that you have come up with here this panel and support the council and the state and even federal if necessary", "but we really need to get the public to come forward and to understand and to support what you will come up here with today because we need to do it all", "i appreciate your coming", "and i hope this is something that will go further", "and i hope that we can keep up the pressure", "there's no one specific person to blame", "all the decisions were made with turtle and everything else", "people give into not going on the right track because they didn't understand because there weren't enough people out there that were pressing for it and all that needs to change", "thank you chair", "thank you mr carroll for sharing", "ms baisa", "yes", "thank you very much chair", "and thank you to all of the panelists for being here today", "this is definitely a problem that we all need to be very concerned about", "i have an old fisherman in my house", "and so i know how things have changed because i listened to his remarks about what he sees and what he saw before", "it is sad", "but i'm looking at your suggestions about how we can reverse this", "and i'm concerned", "it's funny because in another committee in fact in mr guzman's committee right now we're talking about coral permits", "and i didn't hear a whole lot of talk about how that affects this but yet my husband often talks about how he's worried about all the sunscreen in the water and all that activity and the impact that it has", "anybody want to comment whoever would like to say go ahead", "thank you", "everything has an impact as was mentioned", "i think the key thing is we can take action on things that we can and we particularly need to look at some of the major impacts and it's been stated over and over and over again when you boil it down to three major impacts on our reefs that are gonna threaten their existence so overfishing landbased pollution and climate change", "can't do much about climate change but we can start to address the other things", "sunscreen gets a lot of press from time to time", "there's been a recent study about it and i'm sure at a certain level it does add another layer of stress on our corals but it's not", "a lot of people will glom on to that because why i don't use sunscreen it's all the visitors that are the problem", "and it's very likely a minor minor contributor", "it wouldn't hurt if people would stop using sunscreen that has particularly the certain ingredients that are bad", "it wouldn't hurt if they wore rash guards and things and just put sunscreen on their face and some exposed areas rather than spray it all over their whole body", "but i hesitate to jump on things like that as major cures cause i don't think they will have that big of impact", "overuse in general can be a big factor as well", "and the coral permits are one way that the county is trying to come to grips with that and control it", "and hopefully the state will come along", "they now have a system where they can permit all ocean activities commercial activities and hopefully the permitting processes to start to better managing it and spreading it out and reducing the impacts not just for coral reefs but also to reduce the conflict with other users", "but again i hesitate to jump on that as the major cause", "i think we can certainly address certain things and we should when we can but we need to also keep in our mind these major factors and figuring out the best way to move forward on those", "thank you for that", "of course the other area that i'm very interested in and i put a communication in just about a week ago to talk about stormwater and in attending the hawaii water association meeting this year i heard a little bit about stormwater utilities and this is gaining popularity all over the place", "and we're going to talk about it", "hopefully the chair will schedule it to find out what is happening in other areas to control storm water", "because while some of this is obviously development based a lot of it just happens", "the water runs down the hill", "it's been running down long before i got here and it's still running", "and so i think we need to do something really", "we have to do something too when we see these pictures of all that brown water it's obviously a real serious issue", "so that's another thing that i'm very interested in is how do we try and deal with some of that too it's not anybody's causing it", "it just happens it's always happened", "so how can we get that water and put it someplace else where it's not causing problems", "but again thank you very very much for being here today", "information is important as we have to make some tough decisions", "thank you", "thank you ms baisa", "thank you mr sparks", "mr guzman did you have any comments questions yeah", "thank you chair for bringing forward this subject matter", "i'd also like to thank all the participants for the information and this is one step closer for at least sharing the knowledge to the constituents through akaku and at least getting the message out there", "one of my questions is basically there are three primary stressors climate landbased pollution and overfishing", "on the overfishing portion of it i'm gonna have three different questions but on the overfishing issue do you have any statistics on how many fish or aquatic fisheries that are basically being taken out by illegal activity versus hawaiian gathering rights is that an issue that comes up is overfishing due to more of the illegal activity or the legal activity that's going on probably there's a lot of legal activity", "there's not a whole lot of restrictions on fishing", "so unfortunately we don't have a fishing license requirement in this state", "so it was really hard for us to get a good grip on the amount of people who are fishing and the model take", "commercial fishermen are required to submit reports", "so we have some idea of what the commercial take is but those reports are not validated", "so we're basically taking what they tell us they caught", "and some indications suggest that those reports underreported by at least three times if not more", "and so we do some studies to get a feel for it", "my guess would be that noncommercial fishing is huge just because there's so many people doing it", "however commercial fishing has a few people but they're very effective at doing it", "so rather than sectioning out how people are doing or why they're doing it it's very important that we just look at how we can manage it for all uses", "and then like you said even if you do have the regulations in place if there's illegal fishing going on it's still a problem that needs to be addressed", "so part of that with marine managed areas part of that could be that the enforcement is a lot easier", "you have an area with a zone and let's say it's a notake area", "if somebody is in there taking fish enforcement's a lot easier than if there's just different types of fishing that's allowed", "other than that i think the real hope's gonna be just changing people's mindsets and awareness so that if somebody is out there illegally doing it it's really shunned on by their friends and family and peers", "do you foresee or at least have any idea how the county could help i guess not really enforced but i guess it could be enforcement but we don't have jurisdiction in that area in the ocean", "what other means that you can foresee the county helping out in enforcement limiting the fishing aside from we could probably send out rezos to encourage the state but like mr carroll says a lot of times it falls on deaf ears", "so is there anything that you can think of that in your expertise that the county could legislate to help prevent the overfishing i'm not sure i can answer that directly", "as a complete outsider let me offer a thought here though", "and it reflects back to council member carroll's comments about the concern that the county has and yet it's a state issue", "i've worked on all the coral reefs in the main hawaiian islands except niihau", "i've seen the problems and i'm very much aware of how things are looked at", "and i may be wrong in this", "but what i see is that the county of maui is such a political and economic force in the state", "that it just seems to me again as an outsider that the state should listen", "if the county asks for something that is very important to its future and its well being and its residents for the future it seems to me it can have that clout with the state", "you're not asking the state to do anything to hawaii or the big island but you're asking for yourselves and i would think the state would listen", "i don't know maybe i don't understand all the politics but i think the county has a very big stick in this to talk this day", "it's your backyard and i don't see why they won't help", "yeah i don't see why", "can i get a copy of that video and send it to the state i just wanted to add one more thing", "i'm sorry just to answer your question and also of carroll's was that we are gonna be having additional briefings", "so in december at some time we're in discussion with suzanne case from dlnr and bruce anderson with dar and there'll be coming over here for meetings anyway and we'll be sitting down and having the same discussion with them and absolutely asking as we are with you folks how we can best provide support and likewise vice versa", "so i'll pass that question on as well with them", "chair i would propose that if there could be at least one or two items that we could address in a foreign plan or some type of legislation if that could be put together before the state ledge opens their opening ceremony i know that all of us usually go there for the opening ceremony and speak to as many state legislators as possible", "and that's the time that we get to bend their ear on certain issues that are close to or at least mean a lot to each and every one of us", "so i think if you can get that going prior to the opening of the ledge each one of us would do our part to present to as many legislators as possible", "i think that's one way of starting it out", "the other one is chair the landbased pollutions", "was there any opportunity to bring in public works or environmental management mr gonoza and ask him a few questions and concerns in relation to some of this sentiments and other pollutants that are damaging our reefs because he didn't have them scheduled to be part of that panel", "no not at this point but they are definitely well aware and have brought that up to director goode and others but for sure we can hone in on just that specific on another time but no they're not here today to discuss solely on that one particular issue", "it's a huge one i know but no not at this time", "i did want to comment though that i like your take in regards to all of us working together with our experts bringing their knowledge and information into our policies we create and aligning it on the state level", "but let's not forget also that mr ricky okama had nominated myself too on a federal level in regards to addressing and bringing a voice of ours to that level of government", "and so if we can just align county to state to federal collectively i think that would be really a great strategy", "and i want to give kudos to this body here maui nui marine resource who basically did draft all the wording and the expertise that i took up to the federal level because they are our eyes on the reef so to speak and have the best knowledge", "and that's why they're here today obviously too", "i've got to meet leo asuncion who is our pacific islands region representative", "he's planning program manager for hawaii coastal zone management", "i feel good about having dual representation up at the federal level for collectively as not just maui voice but as a state too", "and i think we can make great headway that way", "and so i think yes locally but i can bring it up to the federal level too which i'm very very excited to do and very happy to do", "mr carroll did you thank you chair", "i would like if i could give our panel over here it's a copy of the bill for a restricting of spirit fish and also the poundage and the sale or spirit fish the total poundage", "if i could give it to the panel just for their information", "thank you chair", "yes mr coach", "thank you madam chair", "and thank you guys for being here", "we always learn from you when you guys come up and give us your presentations", "and one of the things i wanted to ask we got some of the information but on the overfishing are we getting pushback from people doing the fishing the fishermen and the fisher women are we getting pushback from and then trying if we decide to do the cmmas where they can't fish in certain areas", "i'm assuming that part of the cmma prohibits fishing or certain fishing", "i don't like pointing fingers at fishermen for overfishing", "understood", "there are different types of fishermen", "those that really malama and know how and there are others who use for economic gain", "so for us at polanui we've gotten good support for a fiveyear rest period because they see there's hardly any resources", "so they support it", "i think most fishermen are against protected areas but will be for it if they know there's a light at the end of the tunnel to help support", "because fishing is not just catching fish it's family time", "and without that family time you're taking away something from them that's very important", "so for us in our small area and allowing that to come back and reopening up with additional restrictions is important for our management system", "but yeah they can push back guarantee", "but it has to be done in a way that's inclusive", "so i would encourage all fishermen to become involved and be a part of the solution throughout the barriers and come up with solutions to each one of the barriers that can help them get to help us so we can help everybody", "so it's a very tricky part", "i don't like taking those things away but we do have a responsibility to maintain it", "so including them is more important than excluding", "so i welcome all fishermen to come and join us in our conversations in our management plans", "cause i want to hear the pushback and i want to hear them now before we move any further because they need to be a part of the solution", "i know mr field talked about i think it was him that talked about particular fish that are banned or was that", "but other fish that can be taken", "and like you said mr sparks that's very hard to enforce", "but i like the idea of maybe a rest period maybe a rolling rest period", "somebody showed us fifteen of the olowalu reef was really tiny portion", "so maybe you take twenty or whatever thirty of the olowalu reef and rest that for five or six years and then move", "would that help cause it will help with still allowing fishing in certain areas but not in the whole ecosystem", "that concept is a popular one that a lot of people gravitate towards", "and i'm not sure if it's historical or traditionally done", "however in traditional times they also had a lot of control over effort", "how many people were fishing fishing in their autopilot et cetera", "modern times the only example we have of something like that is the waikiki fma", "and the research has been done on that today", "it shows that it's actually worse than areas that are open to fishing all the time", "and the reason for that is there's a derby mentality", "so you close it for a year or two i forget what the timing is", "the fish come back you open it up and it's like opening day everybody is there", "so you increase fishing effort beyond what it would be if it was open all the time", "so that's the world we live in today which makes that concept difficult", "beyond that a lot of the fish that are very important live for a long time", "so they may take five years to mature and move in onto these reefs where they're important as grazers eating the algae", "but then from that point forward mortality is really low natural mortality", "and they may live up to thirty forty", "some kala or unicorn fish have been shown to live up to fifty years old", "so these large adults natural mortality is low and they play an important part in the reef", "so if you close an area off for let's say ten years and you get a mature population back up you open it up that could be lost", "all of that gain over the last ten years could be lost in one year or less", "and you're right back to the same point", "just like when i thought about the large parrotfish slowly coming up and then suddenly back down", "so i don't know", "i think in the case ekulu's talking about a rest area and then they would have other protections in place to help manage the resources once they get up to a point perhaps where they could be harvested but just rolling closures where you close an area and then open and close another area probably not gonna work just given the fishing effort and everything we have today", "okay", "yeah i can see how very complex the overfishing problem is because you don't want to take away their rights and we don't have a licensing system", "i don't think we have a size limit", "do we have the size limits i know usually when the size limits is you can keep the big ones but leave the small ones in there", "and it's my understanding that some of the science says now no you want to leave the big ones and take the small ones", "yeah", "we have minimum sizes on a lot of fish to protect them at the point where they become reproductively mature but we do not have maximum size limits on almost everything", "the only example even gets close to that as our new rules for parrotfish which protect the terminal phase males", "we can take a recess", "do you need to take a recess yes", "members we'll take a five minute recess", "will the infrastructure environmental management committee please reconvene and thank you for a quick break", "yes mr coach", "thank you", "i had one maybe two more questions to finish this", "i know we talked about the fishing", "now one thing i didn't hear anybody saying and maybe because of what's going on that this may not be effective at all but i've been seeing documentaries and doing some studies and seeing presentations about artificial reefs", "putting artificial reefs out front to protect the reefs using the reef balls and things like that", "are you guys looking into some of that would that help i know probably wouldn't help the whole bleaching situation but would it help in any way i guess i'll take that one too", "we do have an artificial reef program", "pretty much all of the islands have established artificial reef areas", "we've put different types of modules", "and even as far back as tires set in concrete and there are other things", "the program is centered around building habitat that is good for fish particularly fish that people might target", "so actually it's a fisheries enhancement program", "it's not a replacement of natural coral reef mindset", "there are efforts where you really carefully engineer the type of material and you potentially plant corals and things of that sort", "it's a possibility as a last resort to mitigate or to replace some lost reefs", "but my viewpoint is we would serve much better if we protected our natural reefs and try to improve the situation so that they recruited out and grew and were healthy and thrive on their own rather than relating back to putting concrete structures on", "we always could do that but it's not gonna really bring back the reefs the way they are naturally", "i just want to second russell's comments", "this is being done of course in the caribbean where they have a severe coral loss problem they're trying different things", "but we think about it in a matter of scale we're talking about fifteen thousand acres of really good coral", "at least it was until a couple of months ago but it's still pretty good", "and replacing it with little plots here and there", "it's the difference in scale that we're not gonna achieve", "and we should put our effort in protecting what we have", "i just want to emphasize we've gotten back naturally to the things we can control like landbased pollution and fishing", "climate is now the five hundred pound gorilla in the room", "there were thousands of acres bleached in the northwest hawaiian islands which have no runoff and no problems like that", "and so what everybody says or everybody sees happening is that this problem will", "it may not just incrementally get worse", "next year may be an off year but we'll be seeing more of these", "this is unprecedented and we'll be seeing more of those", "and we have taken into account that the entire reef track is really at risk and so we have to do what we can to put these other stressors", "thank you dr hugh", "thank you thank you", "any further comments questions i do like to announce the presence of council chair mike white", "aloha thank you", "thank you chair", "i'm sorry i missed the presentation", "i caught some of the latter part of it watching downstairs but one of the things that mr field mentioned was this is our backyard and i've always felt that there should be more cooperation between the state and the counties because we have this dividing line at the high water mark", "what's above the high water mark is our responsibility and what's below the high water mark is the states", "and i think that allows too high a level of copout", "and i would love to see us develop some protected areas that we could then help dlnr to police by putting our own resources into deputizing people that would work alongside with dlnr or become part of dlnr", "but i think that we've got a responsibility to protect this resource and having lived here all my life i've not ever seen us really take it terribly seriously", "dlnr is one of the most poorly funded parts of the state government", "and yet they're responsible for overseeing a huge stretch of not only our land but our oceans", "and i remember i was in the legislature once", "we passed the subsistence fishing zone for the island of molokai", "i don't remember the gentleman's name but he had been working in aquatics for many many years", "i called him and i said it looks like we're gonna be able to get a bill just for molokai", "should we just take the senate version or try again next year and he said it took me twenty years just to change the size of the opening in gillnets", "so take what you got and run like hell and that basically points out the fact that i don't think lawmakers have taken a full responsibility for protecting what's out there", "we don't have fishing licenses", "as even mr sparks said we don't have an idea what the take is except from commercial fishermen", "but we've all got a responsibility to protect the reefs", "and if over fishing or fishing is part of the problem then we should be dealing with it", "and from a county perspective i wouldn't mind putting some resources towards that", "we spend more than any other county with respect to watershed protection", "well that's just one end of it but i wouldn't have a problem", "i don't think anyone else in this room would have a problem providing resources to assist with the near shore waters because they're part of our home just like the land is", "so i really appreciate you guys coming", "i wish i didn't have another meeting that i had to deal with but i really appreciate your time and energy that you've put into this", "thank you chair white", "members any further discussion comments for our panelists here today seeing none i want to thank all of you for your time energy and effort and especially your expertise", "and again thank you for contributing to my position with the governance coordinating committee with the national ocean policy makers up on the federal level", "and i'll tell you members and maui county as a whole and to the state that the people that you see right in front of us are really helping to make some great policies to help address all the things that we discussed here today", "so it's gonna take all the efforts", "yes mr white i know local county federal level and collectively we can get things done and i feel a great tide or a groundswell of movement with everyone", "i think we're all forced into this corner right now with global warming and what have you that we need to take action swiftly quickly and so thank you all members", "and we shall now take a brief recess to reset the room and it looks like we have public works here to join us next", "so with that thanks everybody", "and we will be in a short recess", "will the infrastructure environmental management committee please reconvene and members we are onto our next item iem forty", "this is in regards to termination of license agreement affecting lots one hundred and forty three one hundred and forty four and one hundred and forty five of the pukalani lots at kehua pukalani", "and this is a count of communication", "fifteen thousand two hundred and forty one from director of public works transmitting a proposed resolution entitled termination of license affecting lots one hundred and forty three one hundred and forty four and one hundred and forty five of the pukalani lots at kehua kula island of maui hawaii the purpose of the proposed resolution is to terminate an unused license in favor of the county of maui for drain and sewer line purposes on three lots in pukalani maui hawaii", "and with that i will turn the floor over to director goode of public works for some opening comments", "so dr goode", "good afternoon chair members of the committee", "dave goode here from the department of public works", "and before you today is an interesting case for us", "and first i'm gonna ask if the members have the map showing where this is located", "it's actually on page two of our transmittal and i know that it was supposed to be in red", "my copy it was in black so it was hard to see", "so i'll make sure members all see where we're talking about", "director it's transmittal august 31st dated august 31st on the cover page", "is that correct okay", "so there's a map on the second page", "yes i see it", "it says shown in red and mine just happens to be black", "so it was really hard to see", "just want to make sure the members have it", "i have the red line here", "okay we got red", "yes i do", "you guys got red okay better than my copy goes", "okay", "this particular portion of the lower end of pukalani was developed in the early 50s", "and they had these long skinny lots around malcolm makai and cross a couple of our", "across i guess in some ways our roadway", "and they have they're private lots", "we do not own them", "they're last owned by it looks like frank munoz jesse munoz and emmmanuel sui", "and as far as we know they were never probated but they also included on these long skinny lots a license to the county of maui for future drainage or sewer lines improvements", "we never installed any drain line improvements we never installed any sewer line improvements", "we had no intention of installing either of them", "so we were interested in canceling that license because we do get an occasional call from someone that says you gotta come clean out your lots they're not our lots and the license just gave us the right to install either drain our sewer lines", "and yet we have no intention of doing so", "so we want to basically cancel license", "normally a license you can ask core council here but normally a license has a thirty day cancel clause by either party", "and usually with some kind of notice given the other party", "there's no notice in here", "the way the license is written it's written as it says acts as an easement", "so i thought it's best that we have a council action", "it would be a resolution and we can then record on the property to show that the county has no interest in executing this license", "if for some reason in the future it is desired by the county to use these parcels", "and by the way these parcels are ten feet wide", "it's really not enough room to even backhoe in there and work", "but if for some reason the county did want to acquire those parcels the parcels are basically sitting out there", "again last owned by three individuals who as far as we know never probated them out", "so i suppose we could go to court get control of the properties if indeed we needed to", "so anyway that's the purpose of this resolution today again is to formally sever our ties with the license agreement and carry on", "thank you director goode", "members any questions and before i get comments from the floor i do have a question for corporation counsel ms thompson", "it appears that the rezo doesn't reference any provisions of state or county law for terminating such licenses", "should we be concerned with that to figure out a legal process of our involvement in doing this type of action at all thank you chair", "the nature of this easement would be more in common law and related to abandonment of easements", "say if the owner wanted to come back to the county and say you've never used this property for sixty five years", "and so therefore you've effectively abandoned your right to use it but that is all related to common law usage and chapter three hundred and forty four of the maui county code discusses the county's disposition of county property in easements or in fee simple", "but that wouldn't apply to this case since we're really just relinquishing the right to use someone else's property which i believe is practice drafted", "okay very good", "thank you for that clarification ms thompson", "members the floor is now open for questions comments anything of director or corporation council here no everyone's all good we're all good mr goode", "okay so with that then i shall make my recommendation", "i would like to recommend adoption of the proposed resolution and of course incorporating any nonsubstantive revisions and filing of the county communication", "thank you it's been moved by chair white seconded by ms baisa and members any need for further discussion on the matter seeing none then all those in favor say aye", "aye", "any opposed say no", "seeing no oppose measure passes with let us see", "three at five eyes two excused and zero nos", "so okay", "that's all done", "director goode thank you for your presence here today and explanation", "so next on our agenda we have iem forty two and this is grant of sewer line easement to hospice maui incorporated in wailuku", "and this item is a county communication fifteen thousand two hundred and sixty two from director of housing and human concerns", "ms ryman would you like to come and join us and transmitting proposed resolution entitled authorizing the granting of easements for sewer line purposes to hospice maui inc pursuant to chapter three hundred and forty four maui county code and the purpose of the proposed resolution is to grant to hospice maui inc a sewer line easement for the limited purpose of installing underground sewer pipelines and related facilities within the leased premises and other real property owned by the county of maui to connect to public sewer system", "so at this point i shall welcome director of housing and human concerns ms carol ryman aloha aloha chair", "aloha", "and i'm opening up the floor to yourself and director goode whoever would like to speak to the item you may", "thank you chair", "members of the committee my name is carol ryman director of housing and human concerns", "so basically hospice maui the side of mahalani street that they are currently at does not have any sewage systems", "so this easement is to allow them to hook up to the county sewage facility that's on the other side of the street", "and it will go under mahalani road and mahalani road from what i understand is in the jurisdiction of public works and so they're good as here as well", "okay", "thank you ms ryman and director goode did you have some comments to add at all just briefly chair just as it relates to the roadway", "if the hospice is in charge of the line if they have to do anything to the line they always notify us and we'd work with them", "okay", "all right very good", "pretty straightforward there", "ms thompson yes", "thank you chair", "i just wanted to correct", "there was some testimony earlier that this was an easement from the county to the county and that's not correct", "it's actually an easement to benefit hospice maui as an easement for a term that coincides with the lease term of the hospice facility", "okay did i read that out of our agenda item it was just to correct what was said by mr logoi the public testifier", "oh okay got it", "thank you very much for that clarification and members any need for further discussion comments yes ms baisa", "thank you very much chair and i would like to comment", "i want to say that i'm very happy that we're at this juncture here", "hospice has been trying for a very long time to get this taken care of and it's a big need in our community", "i think we're all realizing more as we watch the news and what goes on that we really need this facility", "so i'm very happy that this is here today and that i can support it", "and i asked my colleagues to do so too", "thank you for your comments ms baisa", "any further discussion or comments seeing none then i shall make my recommendation", "recommendations thank you", "i want to entertain a motion to recommend adoption of the proposed resolution entitled authorizing the granting of easements for sewer line purposes to hospice maui inc pursuant to chapter three hundred and forty four maui county code incorporate any nonsubstantive revisions and filing of county communication fifteen thousand two hundred and sixty two", "thank you", "it's been moved by chair white seconded by ms baisa", "and at this time any discussion needed seeing none all those in favor say aye", "aye", "any opposed say no", "seeing no opposed motion passes with five ayes two excused and zero nos and members with that i believe we have completed our agenda today and thank you very much for all attending and this meeting is adjourned"], "name": ["IEM111615/IEM111615/IEM_11-16-15_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "IEM111615/IEM111615/IEM_11-16-15_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "IEM111615/IEM111615/IEM_11-16-15_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "IEM111615/IEM111615/IEM_11-16-15_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "IEM111615/IEM111615/IEM_11-16-15_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "IEM111615/IEM111615/IEM_11-16-15_DOT_flac_00005.flac", "IEM111615/IEM111615/IEM_11-16-15_DOT_flac_00006.flac", "IEM111615/IEM111615/IEM_11-16-15_DOT_flac_00007.flac", 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["welcome back to another exciting edition of inside media weekly i'm ryan boni joined again by kevin bastos over here on the left", "thank you ryan boni welcome back", "over here on the right derek bonner back again", "quickly i wanted to start the didn't we switch chairs in the past oh should we do that again i don't know let's do it right now i don't know if the worlds ready for my left side", "it's too bright", "nobody else has seen it other than the people who actually know you", "i want to start off the show with a quick apology to mr no no not to bastos", "of course not", "to brad bird the director of the incredibles ratatouille and the iron giant", "yeah a big fan of inside media weekly", "last week we were talking about jj abrams directing the new star wars and i kept saying and jj abrams directed mission impossible and ghost protocol", "when ghost protocol was directed by brad bird and you know jj abrams actually directed the far superior mission impossible three and was producer on mission impossible and ghost protocol", "so apologies out to brad sorry", "stop sending all the emails already", "phone calls and another leftover we have from last week bastos asked did asked did i askedd asked what the market share for the iphone in the united states of all phones and we were talking about we had no idea", "what that might be", "the crack staff crack research staff jumped on that from the insider weekly", "ryan and looked it up and comscore is a company that actually provides this for the industry so this is ends october two thousand and twelve because you know it goes to the paying customers first and then us cheapies who don't pay for it get it you know three more months after that or whatever anyway we were talking about whether it was ten twelve whatever percent i think were kind of the guesses on how i said it was higher than that", "and you'd be right a little bit higher", "of all phones in the united states this would be a feature phones and smartphones", "apple has one hundred and seventy eight of the market share", "i would've expected it to be higher", "samsung is at two hundred and sixty three this is manufacturer samsung two hundred and sixty three apple one hundred and seventy eight actually is pretty much tied with lg at one hundred and seventy six", "motorola at eleven and htc which is starting to have some problems at six", "they had a bad quarter", "that's surprising", "now if you go to and we should say that smartphones found all kinds of stuff from this comscore", "smartphones are at five hundred and nineteen of mobile phones this past quarter or two quarters ago third quarter is expected to be about sixty", "now if you go just smartphones and get rid of all the feature phones and you go by platforms google is a five hundred and thirty six the android platform the apple ios is a three hundred and forty three", "rim is at seventy eight which of course is is blackberry", "pretty much blackberry phones", "microsoft is at thirty two and surprisingly pulling in the rear here is symbion at six", "and i don't believe a symbian phone has been made in a couple of years", "it was symbian for those that don't remember it was they could nokia sony ericsson got together and supported symbian and then they all abandoned symbion", "nokia being the last holdout just went to making windows phones", "and it's probably still relevant just because of all the internet memes with the nokia brick", "but so so there's six of all smartphones are still symbian which leads you to believe too that people aren't necessarily you know everybody thinks there's a problem with the reportings as well there can be that but people might not be as quick you know we always assume oh you know wealthier area people would just get by the newest greatest thing", "but people were holding on to things that work", "i'm not even buying them i'm just getting them for free", "and there you go", "i mean hello what's the free one and hence my piece of garbage", "although there's talk that that kind of stuff the subsidized phones may be going away and everything may be going into okay", "don't talk about it", "which is worse we have a which is worse this week because there were two food oriented items in the paper yesterday so i thought let's let's discuss these so which is worse jainy will pull the plug on food perks now don't get excited it's not fuel perks", "this is the one that when you buy the gas and you go back into the store and you you get a percentage off of your food which for whatever reason no matter how much gas you bought came in at one it seemed to be all the time", "well when you have a ten gallon tank you're getting you're getting your percentage based on buying ten gallons", "that's what it or mcdonald's introducing the fish mcbites happy meal", "see everybody laughs just saying", "which is worse smaller than chicken nuggets fish mcbites happy meal", "which is worse from a real perspective which is worse well of course that's all this show is the labor that's being reported either way", "what am i angrier about i'm angrier that they're getting rid of those food perks i truly and that's dumb but i mean i could care less about what mcdonald's is", "i mean i'm not going to say oh gosh now mcdonald's is unhealthy because they're selling fish sticks i'd perceive them as this panacea of a good nutrition up to this point i mean yeah it's silly but i would say i'm a little ticked that i'm getting rid of those we went to the store i don't know two weeks ago and got ten off of our entire food bill", "nice i don't mean to brag or anything but we're hoarders", "do you have something that's worse out of the two i mean i could play devil's advocate that the fish would bite i just really gets on my nerves and they're trying to pretend like this is such like a health kick", "like this is the healthier alternative to the happy meal", "this is this is yours eating balls of bread that's basically what it is", "there's gonna be a little bit of some kind of fish parts inside of that", "it's lent coming up everyone's doing fish stuff", "you've seen the arby's fish commercial right this is their this is their latest episode their family dinner lent", "you remember that kids right from uh advertising unit there you go", "targeting based on religious needs", "they don't introduce fish mcbites in october for a reason", "this is true", "now yeah and ii'm hoping that the well i'm assuming the mcbites is much more about jumping on the the lenten thing than necessarily trying to pretend to be healthy because it goes back to if you're going to mcdonald's on a regular basis you're going to any fast food", "let's just say if you're going out to eat on a regular basis you're not going to be as healthy as as you could be eating at home i guess", "i don't want to say that you necessarily would because you may make junk at home too", "and the food perks i got to say i'm food perks because you're taking something away from me", "so i guess that makes it a bit worse to me", "but i think there's something more to this food perks thing because they're saying it's too confusing of the system", "but if you remember i don't know if you guys remember when food perks first kind of came into being there was concern about the fact that they could counteract the the price floor on milk", "i get the united dairy farmers were upset saying oh you're going to be able to just cause you can't you can't have a sale on milk i get it now", "somebody has to explain this capitalism exists in the united states except except when it comes to dairy in pennsylvania", "what else is the minimum standard liquor right you can't sell liquor and cigarettes", "so you can't have a sale on cigarettes", "i'm sorry you can't go below a floor", "but i don't understand how is that different than having a fifty gift certificate to walmart and you go by all milk i mean you're getting price off", "gift cards are different", "you're putting actual physical dollars into account to get those dollars back but they also they wouldn't they would accept milk anyway", "you can't give a discount on milk", "so it was done that way i mean i mean i remember when the fuel perks i'm trying to get this correct first came out", "they um you could you know spend money and then get a discount on your gas cause i remember when i remember when the fuel stations first opened and no one was in them no one", "i mean no one does anything and then they started giving discounts on gas and more people started to use them but i was still hoarding my gas and looking for the lowest possible price so i mean i was waiting until my discount got to be two or three and then i would take my two little cans and go there and fill up and get the discount and everything", "introducing both made it beneficial to get all of my gas at giant eagle whether or not i was getting that discount", "so i think it became something that's now a regular thing", "and now i'll buy my gas too at giant eagle and the encouragement to do that", "they are replacing it with something but it sounds more confusing", "they're basically adopting like sheets as method i guess for gas so they got rid of their food perks and now they're giving you an additional three cents off instantly at the pump", "but the idea of it being too complex and i believe the statement that i read was it's too complex for the consumer", "mhmm", "all right let's go in i swipe a card", "you tell me how much i'm earning when i go to the store i swipe my card", "do i have any oh i don't have any", "i'm still buying the groceries i already checked out", "that i think that is just utterly ridiculous", "mhmm yeah", "inside that weekly", "if johnny was looking to sheets for their inspirational for the mto the next thing after exactly", "well they have their mates", "that's true", "caffeine you got a sandwich at giant eagle i got a sandwich at johnny oh yeah pretty good very good aw dude he needs oh yeah", "i am not going to johnny not not not the getgo for a sale", "gas station food's great", "ever had food whenever i had fish man bites this morning of course so there was this football game over the weekend", "and amongst the blackout of the football game which was you know all the talk there was there was a few commercial and the game itself there's a few commercials and you know i don't want to talk too much about commercials cause it seems like it's the most talked about thing but we also have parallel opinion on the commercial marketing land a guy a guy at marketing land tracked mentions in superbowl ads and he looked at the fifty two national commercials that aired from the kickoff to when clock hit zero", "and was he did this again last he did this last year um seeing social networks how often they were mentioned whether it was actually said or just a tagline at the bottom of the graphic at the end", "and this year twitter had twenty six out of fifty two or mentioned now that's the twitter logo", "that could be a hashtag which to me i know everybody associates twitter with the hashtag but it's can you can search other ways with the hashtag", "you can go to google plus or to facebook and search the hashtag because people are using it", "and i think it's funny too that i remember yesterday you were putting hashtags on your google plus", "i but uh then i think it's funny that twitter didn't invent hashtags themselves that a user had to do it", "but anyway twitter twenty six facebook four google plus zero youtube one instagram one", "we didn't have a commercial for last year in fifty nine national ads facebook had eight mentions twitter eight mentions google plus zero is this a trend is this showing the power of twitter the fall of facebook is it both what do you think yes absolutely", "okay next i mean facebook facebook is over it it is", "right i forgot your soapbox on this one", "sorry i went on facebook last night i like facebook", "it is not terrifically uncool it is not at the front end", "you guys remember movies from two three years ago the number of myspace mentions in them", "sure of course", "movies take a year to produce and how antiquated it seemed in the theater to have myspace mentioned so many times of an essentially dead social network at that point", "i mean it it just seemed with the hashtag alone and just associating that with twitter it's something that's free and you have this big event that's one of those exact use for something that's trending", "you already spent this much money on it", "i think it's foolish that not every single of those commercials didn't have a hashtag", "that's something you just throw at the very end", "somebody liked the commercial", "how are you going to talk about and that creates the buzz", "so you have your little time slot and now you have the footprint on social media", "i mean it's it's such an easy way to branch out to the people that aren't even watching", "all right i saw my friend's feed", "they talked about the mercedesbenz commercial", "all right let's go check it out it's free yeah", "well uh i think the consensus seems to typically have been that the superbowl ads themselves were kind of underwhelming this year and have it's been kind of an ongoing trend in superbowl years are we allowed to say superbowl i guess we are", "critical commentary or reporting big gain", "we're not advertising it we're not selling it", "let's talk about their work there's a ton of did you remember when they tried to trademark the big game the big game nfl tried", "he talked about it in he samsung commercial", "but let's talk about the best superbowl movie trailer spots", "um and there were quite a few during the superbowl", "iron man three fast and furious six star trek into darkness world war z brad pitt and zombies", "what is not to like about combining those two and it's not at all the movie at all", "and all the book at all no part of the book in it at any segment at all", "brad pitt's not in the book sorry oz no", "pretty good", "oz and the great oz the great and powerful the lone ranger and snitch", "now best trailer or movie out of those that you think is going to be the biggest here or what most interested in seeing if you didn't see all the spots i mean i i definitely think iron man three is going to be the biggest movie i thought the best trailer was the wizard of oz or oz the great and powerful", "just because you saw a lot of footage that you hadn't seen before and it was one that i was i was when i was watching the game there was a lot of people around so i didn't have to necessarily listen to the trailer as well", "it's going to be a lot of a lot of noise or a lot of people were watching it and that was based on their visual showing the actual world of oz", "and that just yeah i i didn't really care for the movie before that i said all right this doesn't look like it's gonna be that great", "i don't happen to particularly like james franco", "and that made me want to watch it", "i would probably agree out of those trailers and i don't remember all of you all of them that you said the only one that was an iron man three", "we traveled in the middle of the game and i still think it's going to be the biggest movie", "i think it's the movie people have been looking forward to the most", "i think it got great attention through both the fact that the first one was outstanding", "the second one was good and avengers was pretty darned good as well", "i think it will be the biggest film but i think you're right", "the biggest legs are probably from oz", "did anyone else get the feeling that fast and the furious was old i mean number six at the end of the movie struggling yeah i mean i don't think and i may be very wrong because i thought similar things about the 5th one how many cars flip over in that movie i mean it was just one car flips over and then two cars and then another car flips over i thought oh man", "it's crazy these guys are just the car drivers now they're secret agents they're all over the place", "they are blowing up helicopters", "he's driving a car i have a license", "well and i think you're talking about oz i think too that the struggle for a movie like that is that there's going to be a lot of skepticism", "iron man three you know what you're getting", "fast and furious despite all that you know what you're getting it's popcorn candy you know star trek people were kind of assuming it's going to be uh as good as well i think that trailer looked excellent", "and again i didn't see the iron man one but i i think so much positive buzz was generated around the first one especially from people who weren't necessarily star trek fans and we talked about this before i don't like star trek i thought that movie was fantastic", "i know it sort of you know thumbs its nose at a lot of that history that already is there but i think it's going to be humongous", "i think it was very smart they showed a lot more of the supposed bill and in the movie with", "oh and he is he's very hot right now", "he is huge right now and that's getting a lot of people to talk about it all like sherlock or anything else they've seen him do", "and that's a connected audience as well", "the star trek fans are more than likely general big fans of that i mean unless you're throwing in some downton abbey stars as well i mean i don't think you're going to get more attention to that so", "what about snitch the rock snitch huh ah i do wanna ask you though did you see journey two last year i do want to ask about the lone ranger", "i feel is this the more i see of it the less i'm interested in seeing and actually i probably wasn't all that interested", "is is this going to be a humongous flop or is johnny depp enough of a draw to get people in to i mean", "i was very surprised that they had a game time tv spot just because of how much over budget they've already been with his movie and it still looks like garbage", "in my opinion at least", "special effects did not look amazing", "and i didn't understand why they were making the movie to begin with i don't understand what the appeal is right now of the lone ranger", "and then you get the movie and this is if you're going to be going to a blockbuster movie during the summer it isn't even a summary it should be something that primarily can be enjoyed by a family or has an appeal to a broader spectrum than just you know people going from the nostalgia", "i have no no desire to see that i can't imagine anyone even younger than i am wanting to see", "no i think you've got you're targeting a really strange audience", "and i noticed in the preview it is not rated right now", "my guess is they're shooting for that pg rating", "i don't know if they will get it but with disney's i would say strong backing", "i think there's a strong push to get that pg rating and if that were the case someone like i mean my dad's age 60s grew up on the lone ranger", "that could be something that they could take that back interest in and at the same time disney's always trying well trying to push for that next new thing", "taking over that star wars market was very smart but more than likely this was you know in the workflow before then and trying to get that boy market", "and this could be a vehicle for that i i don't foresee it happening i'm with you", "i think it will be not a great success but depending on when it's released it could make some money i mean we're still waiting on gi joe right so", "well it just seems to me like this would have been a better vessel as restarting up the television series if they wanted to go with this kind of thing", "like do something like the wbs arrow", "yes", "so something along those kind of like yeah that kind of um tone to it or something", "a little bit a little bit darker but still", "that has a low budget feel to it as well right but i mean you know but i don't see why you need this big of a budget for the lone ranger that's why i want to know what i'm missing when you watch the trailer side from a train i don't know what's going on", "how many perspectives on that train getting wrecked yeah that must've been like legit like that must've been a steam engine or something they had to reassemble", "took up half the budget", "well and i wonder if they're just trying to cast too wide a net here too because you know you're talking about an older generation might be interested in in the lone ranger but then you cast armie hammer as the lone ranger and it's kind of like you're trying to get the young audience and i get that they're trying to trying to appeal to as many big wide audiences as possible but i i'm feeling this is going to be to miss", "well i think a lot of movies that cast that are big flops anyway", "i mean you've got to go with that one specific target and hit hard at it", "and i keep saying you know you do a good job in anything it will make money", "i mean the avengers is a perfect example of that", "it's just a great film", "it's a very narrow market but i mean really beating that drum for it and making a pretty darn good movie versus well x men a few years ago had made money but wolverine was a tank because the movie was garbage", "so if you do the right thing in the right way people are going to see it", "well and it's like you just saying that i was thinking about iron man you know robert downey jr", "being the perfect cast because he's kind of he appeals exactly to the demographic that was interested in iron man as opposed to trying to bring some young actor and trying to bring a younger audience they were going for", "it's reflective of the real character portrayed in comic books we told that before you know guy with problems alcoholism facing things", "and that's a real person in that doing that to the best of that ability versus no offense poor lou ferrigno", "i can't relate to that", "i just can't", "speaking of problems", "he's still working he's still working", "microsoft surface pro it's coming out next week", "eight hundred and ninety nine for the sixty four gigabyte version", "plus you got to pay one hundred and nineteen for a touch or type cover intel core i5 five hours of battery life", "and then a smarter move demo units are already popping up in retailers a week in advance of the release of this", "is there still life for windows eight for the surface pro i mean surface pro thinks borderline missing their window completely", "all the buzz i'm reading about it is all the people are talking about oh i'm buying the sixty four gigabyte model but how much am i really getting with the hard drive there's a substantial amount of it's being taken", "forty one gigs of it is taken out by the operating strictly the operating system", "so i'm buying a sixty four gigabyte tablet", "i'm getting twenty three gigs", "well i mean that that's a concern for a lot of people especially the people that i had imagined might be interested in buying the surface that don't already have their tablets or not even the people that are going to be upgrading", "that's a number that it's a buzz number that will stand out to them", "and if they find out that kind of buzzing i'm like wait why is it only twenty one gigabytes the same time windows eight is not going to be exclusive to the surface pro in the full version which is i think a huge thing for the product maybe not being as successful as it should be because now you're going to have all these other companies windows eight will be successful but as far as the standalone product i'm going to just look for the cheaper knockoff that's going to come out so maybe something that's not first gen we'll wait and see all the problems that's going on with that", "wait for the applications to catch up with it", "i i don't i don't know", "i'm still holding out on that computer thing", "nate doty's running that little uh separation for him but i i'm that makes me nervous you know that amount of stuff on there i i i will more than likely not buy one", "i will more than likely buy a computer also running windows eight", "but i don't see the reason to go for that kind of investment when something else nearly as good or better and proven is already out there", "and it's cheaper", "netflix has been having a very busy busy busy year already", "of course they recently signed the deal with turner broadcasting warner brothers television group meaning cartoon network warner brothers animation adult swim shows are all coming to netflix", "they just signed the big deal with disney before that", "and just being released was the house of cards which is netflix", "it's the first series that they're doing completely on their own they did do lillehammer which was kind of a combo thing", "all the shows coming out at once you can watch it completely from day one david fincher is producing and directing i believe the first two episodes of it", "kevin spacey is the star", "is this the new trend there's kind of two sides of the coin", "some people talk about oh you need word of mouth", "the builds people watch week to week and waiting and waiting whereas others are saying you know this is great because you can get instant you know if you're interested in seeing how it's going you can watch it in its entirety the next episode without having to wait", "and so you may stick with something longer because you you get a better feel for it", "your thoughts on netflix on both of those signing with the ticket the cartoon network and all those kinds of stuff and they have disney", "i think that is absolutely brilliant", "they're going to have the stranglehold on all of kid's entertainment or the animated stuff", "that's going to be a huge thing that could be you know potential distractor for the kid at home", "maybe i want a couple of minutes by myself let's put on netflix", "they can watch all those kinds of things", "that's going to create a lot of subscriptions that way", "and then at the same time when you look at house of cards being released completely on the same day i've mixed feelings about it", "because from a business standpoint i don't know if i really understand it because if i want to watch house of cards maybe i'm only getting netflix to watch it", "i only have to pay for one month of it now", "whereas if you spread that out right now you're getting my business for multiple months but they're also adhering to their business model", "anybody that watches television shows on netflix is that binge kind of watching where they're going to crank out those seasons some people even wait for the television show to be done running on television so they can watch it all right in a row on netflix", "so that doesn't seem to make sense financially at least the way i'm thinking about it", "but at the same time i think that's going to make a lot of their customers very happy that there are saying all right this is what works", "we understand this is what you want", "so we're actually going to give it to you this time", "right i think it's the what cable should be doing kind of a perspective", "you know cable is the let's buy everything for two hundred a month where netflix is piecemealing it", "you want a little bit here we'll take that", "so i think they're smart to segment that business model as well they can't compete with something like amazon which has just this huge mega corporation", "and i think it's becoming far bigger than just a shipment organization in that instant run", "so i think you're going to have more than likely a lot of people who are dropping that cable line but very comfortable picking up amazon prime and netflix at the same time", "you know i've got to get this or this i mean it's the same thing that was twenty years ago with premium cable networks at the time you know i'll get hbo because there's these kinds of things but i'll get you know showtime because it has these kinds of things", "if they both have an allegiant audience and you know i keep remembering amazons i'm sorry netflix is talking about the arrested development in the future", "so if there's something always a carrot out there to keep you watching yeah i'm probably going to jump in", "sure i'm going to stay with it", "and my wife has told me already we are back on netflix when arrested development comes", "i mean it's we love the program and we never watched a show when it was on", "not wanting to me either wow", "i mean it's it's it's i would say one of the best shows it's great in the last twenty years without questions oh yeah oh yeah", "yeah well i think that netflix definitely is ahead of the curve on this", "i think this is a very smart move and i know they had to be i mean their survival was in question even let's say a year ago when the business model changed and they had so much criticism for doubling the cost you know paying for both parts of that", "they had to be to survive", "okay", "well there's lots of other stuff but we're kind of out of time for this week i do want to mention that warm bodies was the number one movie of the last weekend", "sorry", "one hundred and eighty eight million armageddon", "bonds on gretta was number two at ninety four i've heard such great things about it", "silver linings playbook mama and zero dark thirty roundup", "bullet to the head debuted at number six it was sliced alone forty five million", "slies worst opening weekend since black hawks in one thousand nine hundred and eighty one", "are you meaning to tell me that sylvester stallone is over the hill what's the next arnold schwarzenegger awake", "two movies coming out this weekend identity theft or the identity thief", "jason batman melissa mccarthy and side effects", "possibly steven lederberg's last movie jude law rooney mara channing tatum and catherine zeta jones", "so we're going to see how all those movies do or both those movies do this weekend on next week on inside media weekly", "thanks for joining us"], "name": ["Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb._5_2013/Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb_DOT__5_2013/Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb_DOT__5_2013_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb._5_2013/Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb_DOT__5_2013/Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb_DOT__5_2013_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb._5_2013/Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb_DOT__5_2013/Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb_DOT__5_2013_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb._5_2013/Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb_DOT__5_2013/Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb_DOT__5_2013_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb._5_2013/Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb_DOT__5_2013/Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb_DOT__5_2013_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb._5_2013/Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb_DOT__5_2013/Inside_Media_Weekly_13_-_Feb_DOT__5_2013_DOT_flac_00005.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "IranBetw1954.flac", "identifier": "IranBetw1954", "text_document_id": "IranBetw1954.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [2952, 3750, 5970, 9020, 5753, 11880, 3490, 8370, 8793, 12460, 9593, 3700, 5930, 4250, 7403, 5903, 3513, 6127, 2343, 10730, 6560, 4450, 4070, 3113, 9580, 7910, 7160, 3053, 7873, 3993, 6333, 10490, 6220, 4123, 3653, 4370, 1980, 9613, 6183, 4330, 5730, 2973, 6670, 3970, 3533, 2200, 5063, 5343, 11073, 3100, 15450, 11543, 6020, 5250, 2370, 5673, 7923, 7653, 4100, 2480, 7870, 3460, 2390, 1983, 5100, 3690, 2743, 3850, 6403, 2490, 6793, 5623, 4860, 16913, 4733, 10733, 2170, 7063, 5120, 6973, 3570, 4753, 8113, 7653, 5343, 3510, 3770, 5250, 3990, 2870, 7510, 3840, 2673, 8093, 5423, 1770, 3833, 3010, 5223, 3090, 2400, 5330, 1910, 8260, 1750, 3543, 1230, 3190, 5973, 2640, 1660, 6593, 5583, 5160, 2230, 2520, 4980, 3503, 2870, 9660, 7530, 11480, 3053, 5123, 5030, 2540, 3510, 3260, 5500, 2960, 4323, 6660, 5610, 8630, 8017], "label": ["all the gardens are covered by rose leaves", "all the mountains have put on their holy dress", "a thousand years ago the poet ferdowsi sang the praises of spring among purges mountains", "today the people of iran still look to their mountains for water precious water for the high arid plane on which most of the people live", "but too often rivers flowing down from the snows disappear in the great central desert of iran", "east and west lie other muslim lands turkey iraq saudi arabia pakistan afghanistan north the soviet union lies beyond the elburz mountains", "iran knew greatness in the days when it was known as persia", "from this vast throne room part of his renowned capital persepolis king darius ruled over the first great empire in history", "the hall of a hundred columns the halam for the many royal wives and a wonderful sculptured stone stairway were among the marvels here", "focus of the sculptures was the life sized carving of darius himself seated on his throne receiving tribute from the peoples he ruled from europe africa and asia came men bearing gifts", "in the procession was syrians bringing golden bowls bracelets shaped like horse shoes and small horses from what is today arabia", "this was sort of tax day twenty five centuries ago", "there were medes there were sapiens to what is today southwest russia there were sheep from what is today turkey", "there were vessels with exotic shapes full of precious liquids", "there were hunt back cattle from what is today india all these part of the persian empire in it's days of gracious glory", "there was a chariot like those of the pharaohs even egypt was ruled by this persian king", "and there was a bactrian camel from what is today afghanistan", "the tax collectors were the men of his mighty army and on these golden tablets various inscribed", "i am darius king of kings", "the great god ahura mazda has given me the rulership of all races this is my kingdom here in gold was outlined the empire which was handed him to xerxes his son", "xerxes at the head of vast armies extended persian rule to the limits of the known world", "the persian armies met defeat in greece at the battle of marathon", "under alexander greeks pursued the persians back to persepolis", "through this gateway alexander the great strode and triumph", "conquerors of a different kind came a thousand years later went in from the arabian peninsula swept men with flaming sword and a fiery new faith", "as this new faith of islam grew and mellowed the followers of the prophet muhammad built great churches called mosques", "the mosque judi shah the royal blue mosque of isfahan was completed in the 17th century by shah abass", "he ruled during persia's second golden age", "polo was developed in isfahan and played in the great square while the shah watched from this porch over the palace gateway", "from his palace shah abass ruled a reborn expanding persia", "he built roads irrigation systems and great bridges like this one but even his empire finally crumbled", "centuries later in one thousand nine hundred and twenty five reza shah rose to power and a new era began marked by a turn from old customs toward western ways of thought", "under reza shah's son needed land reforms or changing old patterns and bringing hope to the people", "the young shah's palace is typical of the architecture of modern tehran", "former rulers lived in the golestan a rose garden palace", "in it's mirror throne room is one of the world's most fabulous objects", "the peacock throne", "this golden seat of state was designed so that its occupants sat crosslegged with his back against the bolster crusted with pearls and rubies and gold settings", "built for the great mogul of india it was captured by nadir shah and brought to persia two hundred years ago", "above there's the jewel peacock from which the throne gets its name", "tehran is the capital of iran located in the north with the alverez mountains in the background", "tehran is a modern city with roots in the past", "the great muslim religious college of sepahsalar is one of the intellectual centers of the islamic world", "these young men are studying to become mullahs religious leaders", "their tranquil place is contrast with the busy life of the city", "a woman wearing the enveloping chador", "is a reminder that even here in this modern city has strong links with eastern tradition", "new buildings and modern apartments are among the visible signs of progress in tehran", "at their national university young iranians with a growing spirit of national pride are becoming the doctors teachers engineers and leaders of the future", "isfahan is the art and craft center of iran", "as it was in the days of shah abass when her people boasted isfahan is half the world much of the imperial splendor survives and then the bazaar the ancient crafts like copper smithing continue little changed", "modern machinery has come to iran but it still as far less difficult to hire a skilled hand craftsman by the day then to find capital to buy an important machine to do his job", "the hands of isfahan craftsman turn with special skill to the creation of fine articles of silver", "machinery will never be able to replace all its craftsman like these silversmiths", "their skill is not easily acquired", "for fifty years these hands have guided tiny chisels none over a 10th the size of a finger", "with never ending taps of his hammer one of the world's great silver masters mohammed zufan creates things of lasting loveliness", "this small case is ornamented with figures of legendary heroes hunting lions and a scene from a persia of long ago", "the shop windows of isfahan display other traditional arts", "here are miniature paintings", "themes use today a little changed from those of the time of the great shah abass and the technique is also little changed", "men sit all day seeming scarcely to move a muscle", "his brush three camel hairs", "and this is some of the work he does", "the best known product of isfahan hands is of course the persian rug", "an average rug is made up of at least a million tiny knots", "every one of which must be tied by hand", "the knots make the woolen tufts or pile of the rug", "the woof or foundation of the rug consists of cotton threads wound between large wooden rollers", "rug industry wages are low", "one of these skilled weavers earns less in a week than an average american laborer receives for two hours work", "after a few rolls of knots have been tied they are founded tightly together with this comb faced hammer", "children's tiny hands tie the smallest knots of the most delicate designs", "although employment of children and rug factories is discouraged by new labor laws as modern industry like this textile mill come to isfahan mill owners and workers alike face the problems of sudden adjustment of the machine age", "shiraz is the capital of the province of fars from which persia took its name", "the monumental city gates and the princely palace of the kashkari suggest the beauty of shiraz whose history is full of the names of astronomers philosophers and poets", "the climate is agreeable here", "oranges grow near reflecting pools in which muslim poets saw the tranquility they sought in their faith", "with this monument shiraz honors its most beloved son the poet sadi", "seven hundred years ago he wrote poetry of such beauty that it still is the basis of the living persian language of today", "the people of shiraz are among the most progressive in iran", "behind the caravan still used for transport rises their modern grain elevator", "they build a fine new technical school where young men are learning to use machine tools and thus reduce iran's dependence on foreign manufacturers", "they point with special pride to their rapidly expanding medical school in which young people are being trained to fill the syria shortage of doctors", "some of the students are women evidence of change disturbing to the conservative muslim clergy", "medical care has not yet reached much of rural iran", "about ninety of the people live in villages like kinare", "kinare exists because it has water water drawn by this primitive hoist", "three centuries ago elaborate irrigation systems operated", "the land fed twice its present population", "today this hoist reaches only sixty feet its capacity to goatskins about eight gallons of water a minute", "here are the people of the village come to wash their clothes", "and in this same water they do their dishes", "they see nothing wrong about having the sheep and goats come to drink at the same source from which they draw their water to take home for cooking and drinking", "a girl named zara carries on her head the quarter of water she's walked half a mile to get", "there is no spool in kinare", "so zara has not heard of the dangers of bacteria in drinking water", "kinare is cold and dusty in winter", "hot even dustier and much more uncomfortable in summer because of the flies", "at home zara's mother makes bread from wheat flour", "that was the family's share of the crop", "the landlord owns the fields and also the house in which zara and her family live", "sickness breeds easily here", "it comes from dust flies unclean drinking water and often just from too little soap because soap is expensive", "main food is bread", "only occasionally are the vegetables and a little goat", "meat is scarce", "so the diet is mostly bread and not much else", "yet for all that poverty these people are kind and decent honest honorable and friendly", "they have bedding is the most precious thing they own", "they have a copper samovar", "i broken kerosene lantern a teapot a few cups and saucers a mirror and a picture of the shah", "together with their clothing and cooking utensils these things are all that this hard working family owns", "the house has two rooms a sleeping room upstairs and a cooking room downstairs", "this is the only stairway", "mother is baking bread this morning", "although iran is rich in oil oil products are still too expensive for this family", "so mother walked fifteen miles to gather twigs for her fire", "zara's father mustafa walks to work", "he realizes that he is neither much better nor much worse off than his neighbors or neither much better nor much worse off than most of the sixteen million people of iran", "and as he works in the fields with the landlords oxygen he knows that little has changed in kinare in twenty five centuries", "there is still the old system of land ownership which sometimes requires the tenants to pay eighty of their crop for the privilege of working the owner's land the only changes most of is clothing", "and now the steel tip on the wooden plow", "like most people in the middle east mustafa wants the benefits of mechanized civilization", "change is coming as the great natural resources of iran are developed", "the most important resource is oil", "at abadan is one of the world's largest refineries", "built to serve customers of many nations", "developed by british interests iranian oil has been the subject of bitter dispute", "with no tradition of mechanical experience", "iranian technicians are developing skills to operate complex machinery", "high industrial wages have attracted men from all over the country to work in the unfamiliar dingle of technical equipment", "men from the highland tribes men from the city bazaars have put on the workman's helmet", "this then is the new man of iran a man who looks with hope to the time when with further development of industry and her great natural resources", "iran may know again some of the glory it new when darius ruled the persepolis over the mightiest empire the world had ever known"], "name": ["IranBetw1954/IranBetw1954/IranBetw1954_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "IranBetw1954/IranBetw1954/IranBetw1954_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "IranBetw1954/IranBetw1954/IranBetw1954_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "Its_A_Local_Production_-_John_Billingsley.flac", "identifier": "Its_A_Local_Production_-_John_Billingsley", "text_document_id": "Its_A_Local_Production_-_John_Billingsley.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [5180, 7570, 6010, 13023, 3360, 3040, 9320, 11310, 4300, 3743, 2320, 1690, 8620, 2410, 1030, 3090, 5000, 13040, 3720, 6830, 3960, 1780, 1480, 9160, 9960, 1810, 7124, 7590, 2268, 6380, 15720, 2090, 2410, 4360, 1740, 8560, 4120, 9380, 2200, 4933, 12370, 1840, 6123, 4690, 3990, 7550, 4410, 5000, 4335, 6783, 3830, 8470, 3730, 6413, 13320, 4670, 7280, 11203, 4180, 4150, 5380, 6260, 2623, 6750, 12600, 4990, 1440, 1223, 9000, 2165, 6825, 3170, 8080, 7920, 5730, 4330, 3100, 1790, 10260, 6610, 2303, 16570, 2490, 9790, 3020, 7410, 4480, 1450, 1013, 7860, 6220, 3453, 7600, 7153, 9316, 10707, 14123, 4600, 1750, 7100, 890, 5876, 2554, 11700, 8130, 8403, 6701, 5040, 1900, 6823, 2277, 7850, 2020, 5430, 8513, 6433, 3750, 10230, 3763, 4293, 5787, 7290, 870, 3893, 6300, 5560, 2963, 5890, 3520, 9560, 7920, 3000, 5070, 2150, 1770, 1960, 2390], "label": ["here we are in richmond vermont outside of our most famous landmark the round church", "and with us is filmmaker john billingsley from breadbox productions richmond based production company", "and we are hoping that he'll tell us a little bit about his production company and the new film that he made about the round church", "so just for starters could you say a few words about breadbox productions sure breadbox productions i formed with my partner around my first project which is liemba", "we really formed it in order to make that documentary", "and that was several years ago now", "and so since then i've used it as my production company the name for my production company to continue forward and do smaller projects here in vermont", "and just to talk about liemba to start with cause while i recently saw the film it's about this ninety year old ship that goes up and down this huge lake in africa", "could you say a few words about that project is full of music sure yeah", "that project we shot nine years ago now", "i went into it blind my first documentary", "i had not done one before", "i was just finishing up grad school which i went to the new school in new york and had studied media studies and media production", "i was actually shooting sixteen millimeter film", "so that was the foundation", "my background is as an audio engineer", "so this project liemba the ship is just an amazing story", "i first came across it moving up to vermont after finishing grad school my wife and i had put everything into storage and traveled overland from nairobi to cape town in africa", "and along the way traveled on this ship liemba for one part of the journey", "we were just drawn into the whole story and the drama that experience of actually riding the ship is just incredible", "and i got back and we moved to vermont", "actually we moved to jericho", "we rented a cabin in jericho", "and that's when my brotherinlaw who had finished film school a couple of years before pitched the idea of doing a documentary", "we were talking about the liemba and he had spent time in africa in the 80s in kenya when he was in college and knew about the ship then", "and so that's when it started", "we didn't know what we were getting ourselves into to pick a ship in africa to do your first documentary on", "had we known what we were getting into we probably would never have done it but there was a huge learning curve", "it was an amazing experience", "after raising the money to go we went with a small crew spent ten weeks in africa", "this ship was brought in one thousand nine hundred and thirteen by the germans to the coast of africa in pieces in five thousand crates transported over land by train and on the backs of porters to the shores of lake tanganyika where it was rebuilt", "it served as a gunship in world war one", "it was scuttled at the end of the war", "the brits brought it back to the surface eight years later and it's still in service today", "so it's this amazing history", "our story was really about the role that it serves today in modern africa this relic of colonialism", "some people travel business some people travel smuggling", "the mv liemba travels the expense of one of the largest lakes on earth playing a critical role in the lives of those in her way", "we recorded all the music over there", "for me like i mentioned my background in audio engineering this was a dream come true", "i had a range from that first trip to work with a group of musicians who were refugees from the congo who i had had the wonderful opportunity to play music with on that first trip", "had their contact info arranged", "the first thing we did when we got to africa was go into a house that we rented with them and record music for a week", "and then during the course of the ten weeks of production i came across a bunch of other musicians as well", "so there is a whole cd accompanying the dvd", "and what was interesting about it too is that just like the round church film it's about layers of history and things kind of coming full circle", "and i was wondering if you could say a few words about the round church film and how that started", "i think the allure of a local hometown project was great", "the main inspiration was a contest", "the margaret george short film competition that was put out by the green mountain film festival", "liemba had played the new year before opening night", "and in all honesty i had just gotten a new camera a new hd camera venturing into the world of hd this is two thousand and ten", "and they announced this competition and i thought it was a great opportunity", "i don't know about you but for me to really learn either a new piece of gear or new software i need a project to sink my teeth into", "i read the contest was to do a short piece about a local historic landmark or public space and how that place reflects the community at large and the spirit of the community", "and i've always loved the round church since i've moved to richmond about seven years ago", "i drive by it every day and it's just such a wonderful building that it was a great opportunity to learn more about it", "and chipping away at the history what are some of the things that you discovered about this landmark that everyone drives by that you didn't really know by making a film it's really its origin", "how it first came together how it was really truly a community effort", "five different churches came together and it was volunteers", "and through this great community effort built this structure where they could all share", "and i think that that sense of community is also something that you still find here today", "that's what i think is the most amazing thing about it", "and doing this film where they wanted this historic building to reflect the community at large it was pretty easy", "you come to the round church christmas sings or a snowy day and it's still a very much a vibrant part of the community as it was intended to be two hundred years ago when they set out to make it", "and i guess we're standing on not only a historic site but one of the best sledding spots in town", "yes indeed", "yep my kids love it", "can you say a few words about some of the architectural points of interest about the building they always call it a round church for instance but in the film you go into some more detail", "well it's actually sixteen sided", "it's not round it's sixteen separate panels that are put together to create that round church the round field", "there are stories about why it's that shape", "one is to keep the enemy from hiding behind the corner outdoors and another it would keep the devil out of the corner", "i just think it's an amazing architectural achievement when you're inside it feels as if it's round but yeah", "and how its origins may have been in new hampshire from one of the points that come out in the film from one of the fellows that constructed it", "it was inspired i guess by a place it was inspired by a building in his hometown", "he had moved here to this community", "he was originally from new hampshire", "he was commissioned to build the round church and he took his inflation from another round church that is no longer around this is all through historical documents", "and i must tip a hat to harriet riggs who is richmond's treasure of a historian", "she literally wrote the book on it", "as far as my historical research my historical research for the most part consisted of sitting down with harriet and really spending some hours with her going through her trove of pictures historic pictures that she's collected about the round church", "and she was just a wealth of information", "we sat down for the interview here in the church and that was an hour plus of just everything just detailed information about the church", "and so it made my job easy", "and there are a lot of people that are really culturally invested in not just the round church but just richmond and its history that show up in the film", "i mean i see gary brestford's house right here and he's the guy that rings the bell", "so if you can say a few words about that", "whoa yeah", "to tell you the truth that first green mountain film festival there was a cutoff there was a ten minute limit to the film", "and i had tried to arrange an interview with gary and i had not been able to do it before the deadline", "and i knew it was incomplete without an interview with gary", "the second cut and final cut which we showed this summer here for the bicentennial celebration includes gary", "and i'm so glad i was able to get that in there because he is been the caretaker for the church", "he first started working on the church about fifty years ago in his teenage years that summer he worked on the church and he's been working on it consistently ever since", "and he's also the bell ringer which is a great story within a story about his devotion towards ringing the bell for all the wedding services", "but it's people like gary there's a list of folks all the volunteers with the historical society who've come out and through all the fundraising and community has come outpouring support for the church", "but it's people like that that keep it going and keep it alive", "it's a great part of the community", "and you weren't nervous bringing your new hd camera all the way to the top there on those sort of rickety looking steps i don't know if they really are", "that was fun", "i had to pass the camera up cause i was more worried about myself getting through than the cameras", "it was a little tight squeezing through some of those holes", "it was very interesting to get up there and see the inner workings the bowels of the church and the sprinkler system too which is one thing i didn't get a chance to because i couldn't capture it", "i didn't have a set of lights when we were up there and it didn't quite come through in the film but that's been a recent addition relatively speaking", "but it's very important and it's elaborate and it's great how they've set it up so that there's no heat in the building", "this sprinkler system is set up in such a way that it does trigger from heat and melts a cap and release water", "so the church is protected from fire whereas it hadn't been in the past", "but there are remains around the round church", "and this came through throughout the bicentennial year with all these events that mmctv was filming concerts and things", "and there's still an urgency around the round church", "it's not like all the work is ever done there's still no i think it's like a boat in that regard", "the upkeep is constant", "there's always a new project to keep it going", "whether it's the roof or some other issues they've found some decane wood in the back some of the structures that they needed upkeep", "i think as being a center of the community i think people understand its importance too", "i don't think it's at risk of falling into disrepair", "i hope that people as gary says in the film that there'll be other people around who care enough to look after it over the next two hundred years", "and that really comes through in the film how things do come full circle", "it was founded as a meeting house two hundred years ago", "it's still a meeting house in a lot of ways maybe a broader sense today", "that's what i was trying to achieve with that was trying to convey that that it's still serving its original purpose", "it really is", "and i had just a one last question before we show the film here", "if you could just say a few words about where it's been shown so far and where you hope this film travels", "we showed it at the green mountain film festival and it's been shown on your station here", "it's also on the richmond historical society website", "so if somebody wants to see the film on their own time they can just go to the film society website and find it there", "yes you can find it there it's available to watch online", "and any other future documentaries we should keep our eyes out for in the next few years several ideas brewing i haven't pulled the trigger on any one of them yet", "so i'll let you know but kind of sifting through different ideas and seeing where the next one will take us", "hopefully i'm very interested in", "it's now with three young kids as well keeping it more of a local perspective", "and doing some sledding i guess in a few weeks", "yeah let's hope so", "well thanks for joining us and talking about your film", "thanks so much for having me appreciate it"], "name": ["Its_A_Local_Production_-_John_Billingsley/Its_A_Local_Production_-_John_Billingsley/Its_A_Local_Production_-_John_Billingsley_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Its_A_Local_Production_-_John_Billingsley/Its_A_Local_Production_-_John_Billingsley/Its_A_Local_Production_-_John_Billingsley_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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tonight", "and the first item on the agenda is public to be heard", "is there anybody here who wants to talk about something that's not on the agenda tonight there are agendas going around", "i have one", "yeah right here", "okay so we'll get right down to business", "the first item is about ccta bus service and i assume that you are meredith burkett", "yeah i just need to hand out", "thank you", "is this the same thing that's in our packet probably maybe i slightly revised it", "oh okay", "so then no", "ninety five percent the same", "okay", "this is great", "do you wanna come up here and join us oh changed the bullet points", "added a little bit", "so i thought i could go through just these major topics an then take any questions you might have", "so we're here because the ccta board recently in this past summer selected the jeffersonville commuter route as its priority project to seek funding for in this fiscal year", "this follows ccta adopting a transit development plan in september of two thousand and ten that laid out a vision for an expanded and improved transit system", "the jeffersonvilleroute was included in that", "definitely pointed out is one of the major corridors into jennings county that doesn't currently serve the route fifteen corridor into burlington", "so the general service overview of what we have in mind is a mondaythroughfriday commuter service", "it'll connect jeffersonville cambridge underhill jericho essex town and then into burlington", "it'll travel primarily along route fifteen revision four round trips per day two morning and two evening", "our commuter routes tend to start with two hundred am and two hundred pm trips that serve the peak commuting times", "we would say the stops including downtown burlington fletcher allen uvm given that's such a large employment center", "champlain bell where there's connecting service", "essex center jericho underhill cambridge and jeffersonville and the exact stop locations would still have to be determined through a public process and discussions with the local towns", "but it would not stop at all the stops in along route fifteen in essex", "all the st mike's oh sure it could", "yeah so we have but that would make it a longer bus for the people who are coming from out here", "so they would only stop if there was somebody wanting to getting off there as for get on and you'd have to kind of flag it", "our commuter routes tend not to stop as frequently as our local routes obviously for that same reason that it would take too long", "we designate what are called time points which are major stops that we can't leave early", "so those are the times that people can absolutely depend on the bus never departing earlier than the time it's put in the schedule", "the intermediate stops you'd have a little bit less clarity about exactly when the bus was gonna be there", "i see okay", "so then we would also offer connections to the rest of our system in burlington and winooski", "we offer free transfers so that expands the reach of the route", "we envisioned the fares would be two per one way trip which is what we charge for our milton and our hindenburg commuter route", "so we would have the same fare structure", "our roughriders estimates at this point are about seventy passengers per day by the end of the first year of service", "it usually takes about three years for the routes to really mature", "so we don't expect it to be total gangbusters in the first year it does take time to fill", "this is seventy riders per bus per day", "oh per day", "oh i'm sorry i forgot day", "sorry seventy riders per day by the end of the first year of service", "so that's basically thirty five individuals in and out", "we estimate a one hundred percent net cost of service so that's after we've deducted any fare revenue to be about two hundred and ten to two hundred and fifteen thousand per year", "and we think the earliest service could start depending on these two funding scenarios which i'll lay out next would be the summer of two thousand and thirteen", "and depending on how it goes it might be the fall but somewhere in that range", "so this is the part that gets a little bit complex and i'll describe why", "there are two potential funding options for the service", "the first is called the congestion mitigation air quality grant", "that's the typical way ccta has funded new services over the last probably ten years", "cmaq was the abbreviation for congestion mitigation air quality", "those are federal funds that are awarded by the agency of transportation through a competitive grant process", "so all the transit agencies in the state compete for cmaq funds usually on an annual basis", "there've been a few years where that funding hasn't been available but it's usually annually", "eighty percent funding of the net operating cost that's provided in federal funds and then there's a twenty percent local match", "and so ccta would be seeking on that local match from jericho underhill and cambridge jeffersonville to share in that twenty percent match", "we estimate the twenty percent match to be about forty two thousand a year", "again if fair revenues come in higher and more people ride and we collect more fares that lowers the net cost", "and so of course the twenty percent match is lower as well", "and we've gotten some indication from re trans that the same background obligations will be due sometime late november but they haven't said exactly when", "so that's the normal way we would move forward with trying to seek funding for a new service", "but this year there's something called the circ alternatives process and i'm not sure how familiar the select board is but given that the governor announced that the circ isn't going to be built as originally planned he had a task force set up that's being led through the ccrpc", "and there've been a certain round of implementation projects that are providing funding for projects that benefit the area that the circ would have served", "so that includes essex town", "we feel like this commuter route would absolutely reduce the traffic and the vehicles traveling through the circ study area", "so we think this is a great candidate for potential funding through that process", "it appears that a one hundred percent funding might be available for a period of time for the service", "so we're actively seeking that", "then talking with people at the rpc and trying to figure out exactly how we can introduce this project as one of the potentials to be funded through that process", "there hasn't been absolute confirmation that a one hundred percent funding will be available but that's the indications we're getting", "so if a one hundred percent funding were available obviously that full twenty percent match wouldn't be needed immediately", "we don't expect a one hundred percent funding to last forever if it's available but hopefully for a period of a few years", "so when this opportunity came forward i went to the ccta board and asked them this is very different than how you've treated other communities who are getting new service", "are you comfortable going to jericho underhill cambridge jeffersonville and not asking for any funds in support of the service and their answer was it would be nice to have a commitment of some sort from the towns to show commitment to the service", "it doesn't need to be that full twenty percent match but something relatively substantial to show commitment that we've placed in escrow for future years if you didn't need it immediately", "so i'm thinking something probably in the range of eighty five thousand a year", "the full twenty percent match a third of it five thousand each yes yeah", "turning over the last section on the handout that i run through or what i see is important next steps and questions that we have first and foremost there's the select board support ccta moving forward with this service proposal", "obviously if there is a local support we're not gonna push the issue if there's going to be support for funding and the service at a local level", "assuming that there is support we will be looking for a letter of support either for the circ alternatives process or cmaq application just committing to your support the route", "in terms of funding i'm curious to talk about what the deadline for ccta to inform jericho of that amount whether it'd be five thousand with a one hundred percent fundings available or potentially fourteen thousand which would be a third of the local match share", "so what's the timeline we're working with for that and then if you have any particular concerns or questions now's a great time to start those conversations so we can make sure to work out the details", "i have a question", "sure", "we've had indications and i'm not quite sure where they came from that a go nogo requirement to bring bus service out to jericho would be for us to find a parking line location which could serve as the bus", "we're all in favor of such a thing but it's turning out to be difficult to find the location", "the question is would finding a park and ride locations be an absolute requirement for this program i think we absolutely need to find some sort of park and ride location to support the route", "i don't think that needs to be the prominent municipallyowned lot", "cct has entered into lease arrangements in support of some of our link routes", "kind of as an interim until something more formal can be developed we rented space at country home products in vergennes before the fares for park and ride was constructed by the state", "so there are interim things that can be done", "i think providing some level of commuter parking so people can drive to access the route is gonna be integral to its success", "we agree with you", "that isn't the problem", "the problem is finding a suitable place", "that's hard", "now do you need a space initially that you can turn around in or can you stop on route fifteen with a bus stop or do you have to so i think we can stop on route fifteen as long as when going in the opposite direction there's a safe way for people to cross the road", "so obviously we wouldn't wanna do that and probably anything over forty five to an hour zone", "so if it's a low speed area and it's clearly relatively pedestrian friendly area we can stop on the road", "another question is how do you determine the", "is it just equal spread among all the towns or is it proportioned out by population or things like in terms of the match so what we're proposing is an equal share", "we anticipate that more riders would come from jericho than from jeffersonville but the cost of those passengers from jeffersonville would be higher because they're riding further so it's not an exact match but i think for ease i think a third makes sense", "that's what we did in support of our us two commuter out in washington county", "marshfield plainfield and east montpelier all share equally in the local match even though obviously east montpelier is far shorter than the trip in from marshfield", "but that seemed to have you talked to the other towns yet no i'm going to underhill next week", "and i spoke with the cambridge town clerk and again on an upcoming meeting in cambridge", "and one of our board members has already had a conversation kind of an intro conversation with the cambridge select board", "and they seem interested they seem interested yeah", "so the meeting i had an initial meeting with underhill staff it wasn't with the full select board so we'll see how that meeting but we're hopeful", "there's been residents over the years who've contacted us definitely expressing interest", "we think this is certainly an important corridor to offer our transit service on", "so we're hopeful that there'll be public support for it", "so assuming that this happens when do you anticipate us having to pay you the match so we figure out which budget to got to so it would be for our fy14 which starts july 1st two thousand and thirteen", "so the one we're preparing for now", "yes", "so the budget that would go in coming day this year", "in terms of a budget deadline i mean we're preparing a budget now", "okay", "and of course the final is march 14th but the budget goes to the town well before that", "right", "so the question it goes to the publisher at the end of january", "yeah so it's not unthinkable by any means for us to reserve a certain sum of money put it in the budget to be expended if the program goes forward and not if not", "yeah", "that's something that you're comfortable with i think that would be great", "i'm hoping to have a lot more clarity than i have right now about the potential funding sources and the amounts needed in a month and a half", "by early december i'm hoping that it's been honed in a lot more than it is now", "the circ alternatives process definitely is complicating the proposal", "normally i would say cmaq grant this is what we're proposing this is the cost but it's such a great opportunity to potentially get service on the ground for a lower intro cost for the towns that i think exactly", "i count four towns", "jericho underhill cambridge and jeffersonville", "so my understanding is that jeffersonville and cambridge might be", "i don't think jeffersonville has its own municipal budget", "i think they fall under cambridge", "it's a village i think of cambridge", "it's a village of cambridge", "oh i see i didn't know that", "but i'll get clarity with that", "okay fair enough", "and when i do i'll let you know", "i didn't know that shame on me", "why not apply for cmaq and have the circ alternatives money pay for the twenty percent match i think it's not allowed", "so i think the pot of money is actually ultimately gonna be the same", "so i'm not sure that that would", "i have to think about that", "i didn't think of that before but i'll", "yeah it's all coming from the same pot of federal hybrid money", "man one i've been through similar things before and the federal government takes a dim view and taking money from one pocket to another the circ alternatives task force has it's federal transportation money", "the money that would fund the transit service i think is coming out of the same pot as the money that would fund cmaq", "it's really a question of if we get it into the circ alternatives process i think if it's selected by the task force as one of the projects they wanna advance i think there's a very high likelihood that it will be put into the state budget", "cmaq grant application is competitive so we'll be competing with other services throughout the state", "i think it'd be a strong application but i think the circ alternatives process might be a little bit more firm", "the other question is since this is a competitive process every year it's not unthinkable that we have this service for three or four years and then we lose a competitive bid and it all goes away", "so the competitive grant is a onetime thing to get the funding", "but it's an annual", "running these things is an we don't have to raid biannually", "so once you make the grant and if the service is proving to be successful so it's not competitive every single year correct", "ah okay fine it's a onetime", "that wasn't clear okay", "and then how long does it go on the cmaq grants have historically been threeyear grants", "there might be a change to that in the recent transportation reoperation so it was one time for three years and then you've got to come back and try again well after three years the practice has been", "if it's a successful route the state has provided another source of funding to make up that eighty percent", "so our montpelier link we started to see that funds about ten years ago", "it's been a great success", "the cmaq money is along since run out but the state has found other ways to meet that eighty percent requirement", "okay", "another question it's two", "you're proposing two each way", "yeah", "does this commuter link bus route count would be the monthly passes yep we have a monthly pass for our local commuters", "i believe it's seventy five a month or there's a ten ride which is just ten times the two", "so it's a twenty really just for convenience as the ten ride", "okay so you don't really save a lot of money by doing the monthly unless if you're gonna ride every day you'll save money", "it'd be probably twenty to twenty two weekdays", "so it might be eighty to eighty five a month if you're just going to pay cash", "so you'd say ten", "but given the cost of gas for one gallon right now", "absolutely we're definitely seeing an increase", "we've been having a lot of standees on some of our commuter routes so", "well then i also think that the state is clearly going to have more buyin for public transit anyway to keep it in the future given that they wanna reduce their greenhouse gas emissions by fifty percent by two thousand and twenty eight", "reducing vmt is gonna be a key component", "that's a big deal is to get that vmt reduced", "so i'm perfectly prepared to make the motion", "there are two things you'd like for us one is motion on the first item", "the second no motion is required you just want some information which i think you've already got", "yeah sounds like as soon as possible but early january would be the well even then it's not absolute", "if it's pretty clear we're going forward we'll reserve some money", "okay that's perfect", "is there anybody in the audience who has questions or comments about this david i know you have a problem with the parking right i think i have a temporary solution anyway", "fantastic", "that i believe the people that are familiar with along route fifteen at least a temporary basis depending on the area how many cars and a lot of different things that i thought i would write down", "maybe we'll let them use that", "wow cool", "i'm not familiar but we can chat as soon as this goes forward", "we've had a hard time finding something that works", "your land is in the mill area yeah i have some commercial land it's along route fifteen across from the irish flower place if you're familiar where that is", "and i also have twenty four acres of land on route fifteen where it used to be the sawmill area across from the substation area", "and at least in that area depending how long and so forth it's a little more critical to me", "and it might work out for some kind of solution longterm for at least", "i don't know how big a parking lot put in there depending what we would have probably would do but at least on the short term there's plenty of land there", "and the basis is your not gonna have to do anything", "right adjacent to fifteen is key", "yeah i think the commercial actually has the most longterm viability because we can't do municipal other which is a parking lot in the village center which is david's sawmill property", "unless there's a zoning change or something like that", "interesting", "yeah but it's not but it's not", "that's not an absolute insuperable", "let us worry about it", "this is good news", "good news we at least have something worth doing we have two viable options anyway", "that's fantastic", "so i'll move that is there anybody else who has any questions or comments about this okay", "oh", "i just like to make the comment that i support doing this", "and i think that i would be one of the people riding the bus at least occasionally", "this particular route doesn't serve my commute but it definitely would serve some of my other needs", "and absolutely recognize that it's sort of a starting point", "and hopefully it's at least in a way to show support in use of transit and something we can go from", "so i would move that the select board", "oh sorry do you wanna you said earlier on thirty five riders are seventy each way", "where does that number come actually we have commute data from the", "it's not the census anymore but it's a survey done at the federal level and we can get numbers on a number of commuters from towns in vermont into burlington", "and so i took those figures and apply the market share that we get on other commuter routes and applied it", "and so how long worst case scenario how long do you run empty buses for like at what point do you say wow it turns out nobody here is getting on the bus we usually do routes three years and that's usually when the state especially at this point with cmaq will come in and say you know it's not working", "you need to either make significant changes or we'll you know", "and it would be onestop in jericho onestop in i don't know we might do more", "there will be two yeah", "obviously we don't have too many stops cause it slows it down", "but if there are two places that really make sense parking right in another place that's walkable that's certainly feasible", "and if it moves forward there'll definitely be public hearings in each community as we're designing the group to figure those things out", "all right thanks", "all right cool", "now you can go team", "go for it", "so i move that the select board vote to indicate it's support for the proposed jeffersonburlington commuter route and declare its willingness to write a letter of support for the cmaq grant application", "i'll second that", "all those in favor aye", "thanks meredith thank you so much", "thank you", "oh it's exciting", "it's very exciting it's about time man", "we talked about it for a long time", "is there going to be wifi on the buses meredith in time most of our commuter routes do have it now", "see it was a good question", "did you hear that there is wifi on the buses", "we're getting there", "oh my goodness i'll be able to multitask on my way in yes", "thank you thank you very much", "so much for coming", "thank you", "yeah the others very nice but david's idea of it maybe we could hit one of the churches in this area so that quiet somebody down", "yeah definitely", "what about the school area because it's slow there where's the other one the elementary school", "oh the other ones up further but i'm the elementary school", "that's a good idea yeah", "we might look at that too", "the other one i was thinking at the post office", "it's down by the red mill", "i mean there are a number of possibilities for just to stop", "the red mill is not a possibility", "there's no shoulder", "that's true", "there's no okay", "but you know maybe by the church", "you can try the church and mrs b's barn there has a circular parking lot", "yeah there might be", "they'd have to be able to stop on both sides and it's fast there", "and she said it had to be less than forty five", "thirty five", "thirty five so that's why yeah we will work on it", "it gives the energy task force something to work with", "because it's spread out so long here are two what might be practical", "yeah i mean at least the energy task force has something to hang it's head on then", "i mean there's a lot of sense for having one each in the two big population centers which is here in the flats", "yeah yeah absolutely", "anyway okay", "okay so the next item on the agenda is the safe routes to school grant application", "pat", "yeah this really came up pretty recently", "this may be one of the last opportunities we have to apply for a designated safe routes to school grant because of some of the changes that meredith was talking about in the transportation bill", "safe routes to school grants are a hundred percent federally funded", "so as long as you don't go above the maximum grant award of two hundred and fifty zero there's no local match required", "what we are proposing to apply for are really two grants", "one would be we could refer to as an infrastructure grant which would look at on river road installing permanent radar speed feedback signs", "and then at the crosswalk on the curve with dickinson street installing a pedestrianactivated rapid flashing beacon", "the other part would be the other end of dickinson street with route fifteen installing a crosswalk there", "and again also the rapid flashing beacons", "that's one application", "another application would be to conduct a feasibility study", "the town did something similar almost fifteen years ago but again looking at the river road route fifteen intersection in terms of vehicular movements pedestrian safety there's been a lot of talk", "recently about the crosswalk in that area or lack of crosswalk in that area", "and recently the school held a walk to school day and believe had a survey", "and that was one of the high", "one of the main concerns was that intersection as well as when we did the aarp walking audit that was i think the priority intersection for the town to look at in terms of intersections and looking at pedestrian enhancement", "so that would be a feasibility study to look at what types of improvements could be made to the intersection", "what sort of pedestrian improvements could be made wouldn't result in any construction but it would be the first step in getting to any construction if that's what the town decided to do", "does this go along then with the email train that was with randy clark and the crosswalk by the park i mean that's for the park", "no it would be the same thing", "cause you can only have so many crosswalks within a certain distance you cover", "so it's related but it of didn't come out of that", "that's just another concern that's been raised at the intersection from a different person from venue", "doing a feasibility study will help deal with that particular issue yeah and see what what options there are what things people might like to see there", "and then the board could decide if there was an alternative that they liked that they wanted advanced", "do feasibility studies of this kind cut any ice with the state with dtrans because this is a state road", "anything we do we can do a feasibility based off wazoo", "yeah i mean that you have to do it", "i mean without", "you can't really get anywhere with dtrans without starting with at least a scoping feasibility study", "has it been observed in mankind's history that they respond to something like this well you know the street scapes is one", "this is route fifteen it's their right of way", "depending on what we did it may likely end up that it'd be something that the town would have to maintain because it would be our project but you just have to go through their review process and they'd have to approve it", "so this isn't hopeless no", "it's the stuff that randy clark had talked about", "i mean we as a town wanted to do that a long time ago to get some way of getting people across the street to the park", "right", "mainly the concern or question really is about the safe routes to school money can be spent on sidewalks right i mean we could just", "and doesn't the rpc often pay for the study or aren't there a lot of grants for studies the money through the rpc won't pay for engineering", "and this is engineering the feasibility study the feasibility study it's planning", "so we could apply to the rpc but they will require a twenty percent match", "this would be a one hundred percent funded", "i don't believe we could apply for the beacons", "and even if we could apply for the beacons it would likely be more than the grant available for their sidewalk program", "and do these things total up to the two hundred and fifty thousand oh not even close no", "so why don't we come up with some sidewalk stuff to pay for because we don't have any design that we could apply for it", "you have to have", "with these anywhere you have to have a completely engineered sidewalk", "and this is the last one", "right so that's why yeah it's the map21 program or something", "they're changing it as of october 12th", "so we don't have plans from the street scape process that never got built out to fruition that could be used", "no", "because i know in the beginning of the street scape project there was a lot of brainstorming and a lot of different proposals and there was talk about more sidewalks going further", "no no", "it got built out as far as it could", "no it didn't", "but that was the grant that they got and they spent every nickel no i know but i thought there were a lot of studies done before because early on in the process there was different proposals and some of them included more sidewalks going up all the way to sullys hill sidewalks going down the river", "but i don't think they got engineered is the problem", "you're probably right i'm just asking", "right and the approach that we're taking here is there's been a lot of discussion in this area about trying to make some improvements for pedestrian safety for quite some time and not much has really happened", "so we see this as something that's", "the beacons and the speed signs it's something that's pretty easy to implement", "so it can be on the ground fairly quickly", "that's why we're not proposing and moving any crosswalks like the one on dickinson street proposing to move it cause you'd have to add sidewalk", "it's just let's try to make what we have safer than it is now knowing that down the road there may be bigger improvements that are made", "and you don't conflict so that's right i mean these are movable mobile", "right", "now could we move the actual can we move the hardware i mean if we were to yeah you can move it", "i think it sounds okay", "what do you guys think fine absolutely", "it's at least something we can do", "anyone have any concerns all right", "i don't have any concern rather a question just to sort of keep constant prodding", "how you said that none of this stuff would get in the way at all down the road", "other stuff if either something happens where is down the road looking like at this point next month depends on what you're talking about", "next year two years ten years thirty years well we do have in the capital budget money to do a sidewalk priority study so that we actually can talk about all the different sidewalks or trails that are needed in town and oh town wide and not town wide and actually begin to prioritize cause right now it's just sort of hit or miss", "i mean there's some good ideas and we'd go with it to they have a whole unified plan is our goal", "and then we can prioritize it and then where all the places in our dream world we would have sidewalks", "now what is an orderly way for prioritizing this so that we know and the citizens know why we're doing it here and not there on any given year with any given pile of limited money", "beyond that that's something", "that's really different", "but it's all funding constrains", "in relation to the whole dickinson discussion that's been happening for the last five six seven years where is that going if anything that isn't anywhere at the moment frankly", "it's a million and a half dollars", "the town can't bond for something like that", "dickinson is connected with whatever ultimately happens with the property that david owns", "is the property dependent on dickins no no", "no the two things have to go together", "i mean it's not a chicken or an egg", "there has to be a joint program because we can't spend a million and a half dollars to make a road nice that is not connected to any large development", "we just don't have that kind of money", "cause i think the rest of the town can but you can't develop until he gets act two hundred and fifty which means you have to have a plan no no", "that two hundred and fifty is not a barrier here", "we've been down the rack two hundred and fifty road with that", "the problem is we need a plan sufficiently large sufficiently valuable to generate a reason to spend the million and a half dollars", "we can go out and build a nice million dollar and half road through the middle of a cow pasture", "we don't do that", "do you still have those plans from tridel who did it tridel", "there are some amazing inspiring plans for what i mean it would have more iterations but we all looked at the presentation and drooled but then the price tag is prohibited", "well and i think because act two hundred and fifty we're just looking for action from the town that the town will do something", "the fact that we spent all this money on the planning process first we did the study and then we updated it with the tridel engineering", "so it was much more engineered to be a full street scape", "i think act two hundred and fifty would except that it's the fact that the town has done", "at an earlier stage there was a discussion", "david was in negotiations with the lady who owns the the rehab the rehab center", "and there was an act two hundred and fifty process associated with that", "we the select board said here's what we would be willing to do to support that", "and the act two hundred and fifty board accepted what we said we would do as sufficient", "so we were not the reason that stopped that failed to come to fruition for other reasons", "what we were prepared to do on dickinson street satisfied the two hundred and fifty board", "and what i mean it should be fairly clear that we can't spend that kind of money on something that just as long as it's a very small road", "how about others much much more minor not the level of that big picture but we talked about making tickets in two ways", "that's doable that's doable", "small changes that don't cost a lot of money are still on the agenda", "but it's still a lot of money because of the buses", "and it still has to be", "i don't know what was the price tag on making in two way i can't remember", "well there were many different price tags of bidding on how ambitious you got", "you can do things that are pretty cheap", "it is real cheap", "it has to be widened and rounded", "but it is that in conversation it's in conversation yeah", "but we also have a road priority list that generates where we need to be spending our limited budget", "we do have a road priority list where we don't yet have a sidewalk priority list", "so it depends on where it falls in and what makes it bubble forth to the surface", "but there is this list and how deteriorating the road is when you need to fix it", "and so that's what we're working down", "right now the highest priority is kind of low", "that's a big chunk of money", "kelly", "i'm just wondering if started proposing safe route to school will make any difference in two way big part of that study", "and is that possibly part of the safe routes to school that even if we do it in the least expensive way that doesn't allow the buses but does allow that", "would that help any with", "could a study be done to see if that would help at all with the traffic such that it would be safer for the walkins that's a good point", "no right now one of the main reasons we could apply and it's possibly feasible that we could have a crosswalk across route fifteen to dickinson street is without making any real improvements on dickinson street is because of the very low traffic volumes on dickinson street", "so if we increase the volumes on then we can't do this other thing", "then we can do this other thing without providing a side walk in that sort of and this clearly addresses the more immediate issues", "that's the intent yeah", "to get something on the ground more than we have currently", "all right david", "yes i don't know if i totally understand what you were trying to say", "are you saying that if the traffic for example was opened up then you couldn't do what you're thinking of doing this current months if the volumes on dickinson street were any higher than they are right now then the only way we could", "when you have a crosswalk you need somewhere for the people to land", "there's a sidewalk on the other side of fifteen", "so because of the which other side of fifteen well the north side of fifteen", "around fifteen yeah so because the volumes on dickinson street are so low right now it looks like we could have a crosswalk at that location", "have the people land essentially on the shoulder of dickinson street without having to really do anything else to dickinson street because the volumes are so low when it's one way", "if that were to put the crosswalk itself", "correct", "if i may maybe difference in opinion clarification or whatever", "well a couple of things one on the sidewalk on the north side of fifteen it's now in the process of closely being built talking from palmer lane up through to the old underhill garage on the north side", "there was some study and some work done on the right side that couldn't be implemented at all thought or anything could come under that program", "we had to drop that after conceptual design because there was so much", "there wasn't much support for that segment so that didn't make it to engineering because it wouldn't fall under because of the engineering right", "i just wanted to about that part of the sidewalk", "okay that's my question on that part of the sidewalk but on the dickinson street process i don't know really where i'd start here", "i guess i would say my interpretation the dickinson street linda's brought it up a number of times we had a federal study and then we got into", "though we didn't dot our eyes across all the pds before that", "so like board of act we needed another study that we had done i forget the name of the last study", "it's not thirty forty thousand whatever", "and then vote come out of the whole situation after that was done i was under the impression that we possibly could move forward work out some kind of solution", "and then they did another sectual plan that tridelity stuff", "and that's a nice plan and you can say well we can't move forward because of the million seven hundred thousand you would have to spend", "but my feeling would be that the town should look at that study or whatever was drawn there or something to adopt long range which they just said right now there's nothing done other than that plan and all that they would look it over and say this might be the plan with exceptions or whatever", "then after the overall plan and you might look at they finally accepted the plan", "so then we could say okay and we could do this in x number of stages and so on and so forth to get it accomplished", "i think they've got to decide whether they'd like that plan long range or not of what plan they would have", "but in the interim it's kind of gone from one level years ago that we need to correct the traffic problems in that location", "whether i build there or not a traffic problem exists it has existed and it's existed for a number of years", "and the solution was gonna be that we open dickinson street should it be one way this way should it be that way now with the traffic study that was the last traffic study said that they could some streets should be open two way and so forth", "after that study came out i entertained thought to the select board that i'd like to meet with them here", "it's never happened for whatever reason but i'll say it again what i said now if i build nothing there i offered to the town that i have estimates to fix that road for two way traffic and so forth", "it was in state estimates and so forth", "it was in figures from tridel and another local company in westerns earthmoving and so forth", "so it's i think a fair estimate to do the job make it be looked at and so forth a figure to correct the traffic and add the twoway which is basically the same as the long route from long range plan b maybe three hundred thousand", "and if that was done i have offered and still offer to hear tonight moving forward and try to have some discussions in the town that i would do all the labor on that", "build that street for absolutely nothing except that they pay for the materials and so forth and they can have", "and i have one stipulation that tridel because they've done a lot of the engineering on this project as well as the land for myself storm water a bunch of things i have a better knowledge they are the engineers that you have that one stipulation", "but on the other hand you could have other engineers that check on them", "that's because they worked for me and we won't want a conflict or some other thing with the town but it could be looked at worked at plus they work for the town", "so i'm willing to do that", "and if the down drilling put up the materials and so forth to fix that and i is whether i ever build anything there or i don't that's because of the existing problem in the town to keep the traffic from going down by the schools with children and so forth and safe yeah well we've discussed that at length and we appreciate the offer but that's not actually what we're talking about right now what we're talking about i'm just clarifying what's gone on here", "and then to one more point but david this is a select board meeting and we have a lot of people here who are waiting to talk about other things on this agenda that we're already behind on", "so why don't you have this discussion with the gentleman if he wants to hear all this stuff outside or we'll set another time for you to come to the meeting and talk about what you would propose for dickinson street", "that's fine i'm willing to have a meeting anytime and i'm not trying to take up your time but if i can make just one quick point what mr palpy said that we had a solution before act two hundred and fifty that was acceptable", "that i don't believe was the outcome of the discussions at that time", "i just wanted to correct that for the record", "it's my interpretation", "all right so noted", "so do we agree that we should try and grab some money for some beacons and a feasibility study you guys wanna make a motion yup well a little bit we accept the staff recommendation and authorized submittal of a safe routes to school grant application for pedestrian safety improvements in the riverside area", "i'll second that", "all those in favor aye", "thank you todd coming up with that proposal and the next item on our agenda is the discussion with the mobbs farm committee", "is that right yeah that's right", "only twenty minutes behind but sorry about that", "if the board of members were having to discuss on the capital budget they included their trail where we had some questions about it and next thing to come in", "so here they are", "that's solved", "and can you guys introduce yourself real quick who's on the mobbs committee sure i'm heather furman i'm the former chair", "andy dumas", "harry kurtman", "excellent", "that's it yeah", "we are seven", "seven total and do you guys still meet oh yeah", "monthly or absolutely", "excellent", "what do you mean well i wasn't sure", "i don't know we haven't heard from you in a while", "we're down there and work on it and well i know you do work and i know you bring us proposals and all i wanted to know if you were having monthly meetings because you're not tasked with the giant charter or whatever you had to come up with", "right the original proposal from the select board was first to develop the manual plan which took us three years", "and basically we've just been implementing it and doing trail work and managing property", "okay excellent", "so we had a couple of proposals that came forward", "i know that the budgeting process is starting", "we had applied for some funding through the recreation trails grant program and that is wrapping up", "now we've replaced four of the five bridges on the property that fell apart over the last year between april two thousand and eleven and april two thousand and twelve all the bridges on the property collapsed", "and we've been really fortunate to get the grant and also had some support from the town to cover the material costs for those", "as part of that we also had an assessment done by two different organizations", "one was timber and stone and that assessment had i think eight different projects and we've done three of them using rec trails funding", "and then we also had a proposal request recently come forward from fellowship of the wheel", "they are offering their services to improve a lot of the trail that was damaged in the december of two thousand and ten minutes storm", "we lost a lot of trees on mobbs and the trail network was pretty heavily impacted by that wind storm", "and we were very fortunate to have volunteers and scott morel come out and help us to address the issues and get the trail network back open", "but there's been some rerouting of the trails that are located in places where it's really not appropriate to have the trail it's just because that was the easiest way to connect to locations but they're wet and not really supporting the use on the property", "so we currently have two assessments which both assessments include separate materials costs and labor costs", "and we have a total of ten projects now that we don't have funding for", "so our volunteers and the committee is doing a great job of trying to get as much done as we can with volunteers but we really need to address some of the trail infrastructure problems on the property", "we have a fifth bridge on the property that needs to be replaced", "it'll probably collapse this winter if we don't address it soon", "and then just some significant erosion issues that need to be addressed", "so the committee has not gone through the process to prioritize these ten projects", "that's kind of our next step", "and todd and i had started having a conversation about the budget", "and it sounded like you all had some questions about the posts that were developed", "i mean just real basic question is why don't we ask the fellowship of the wheel for some money they're a nonprofit organization that does a lot of advocacy work for mountain biking in chittenden county", "they are actually offering services to the but at cost yeah", "and we pay them for the labor and then they use the property for free", "let me clarify one thing i think there's a misunderstanding", "do as i read this the fellowship of the wheel is proposing to do all the labor costs for free", "and we come up with the no they want us to pay them the labor", "and the labor is the bulk amount", "if you look at this proposal it's like no material costs but project number two one thousand two hundred in labor to right the material budget says six thousand seven hundred the fellowship of the wheel so that these can be better mountain bike fields", "well like i said we haven't really had the opportunity to fully vet the fellowship of the wheel proposal", "it was just presented to us at the end of august", "we had other things on our agenda for september", "so i was going for october", "we had a trail day in early october so we haven't really had a chance to vet the fellowship proposal", "i will say that we've identified these as areas of priority for the trail network that supports multiuses it's not just about mountain biking", "fellowship of the wheel is offering their services as a consultant just like timber and stone did do the work on the property", "yes there's labor costs involved but we also the committee has put a lot of volunteer hours that help offset these labor costs and a proposal a final proposal that we would bring to the select board for funding projects would include primarily costs that would go towards payment of materials", "and then the labor costs we would look to cut that with volunteer support", "so in the past like we've been working with the vermont youth conservation for the last couple of years to replace the bridges the town is covering the material costs", "the uicc is volunteering some of their time but working for a little bit of the labor but we're also offsetting those labor costs with volunteers for moving bridge i confess i misunderstood this", "if i had been correct and the fellowship of the wheel were prepared to do this work gratis if we came up with the material that's obviously an offer we would have to take seriously but that's not the case", "and they're simply being a consultant like any other consultants", "then i don't want to denigrate it", "i'm sure their work is professional and knowledgeable but you know there are other people we can get this from", "and there's an inclination to do this on some kind of competitive basis who comes forward with a proposal", "and the conservation core has a track record with us", "so if it's just a proposal from a consultant like any other consultant i've done probably four hundred million of consultancies in my life", "i mean dealt with them side by side is just another one", "i understand what that is", "so i think we'd wanna have a meeting with your committee in some kind of forum in which we can get opinion on what's the best way to go forward", "maybe it's their priority list", "rather than just one consultant suggestion", "and it does bother us a little bit", "we're aren't really prepared to put forward a proposal yet", "and we've worked with timber and stone", "we've worked with this is presented to us to approve correct no", "in bringing the capital budget together my question to heather was does the mobbs committee potentially have any projects on the horizon that we could possibly plug into the capital budget and this was an example of some of the projects to come up with a number to at least start with that makes sense", "that makes perfect sense", "then you'll come back with all the damage that you've described all the work that's needed to be done i don't think there's a lot of argument", "we get down there not very often but probably every other week", "and there's no question you're right", "and there's no question things should be done", "and i don't think we have a lot of problem reserving a sum in the budget for doing some thing", "and if that's all you were looking at is that sum five thousand or fifty thousand or five hundred or is it five hundred we're doing even fifty it's hard", "i did some quick math here", "we have probably between thirty and fifty thousand worth of work that could happen at mobbs", "i think that's probably a little excessive for one fiscal year", "probably yeah", "several fiscal years", "that kind of work we had the committee can prioritize based on what's most urgent", "no this is just support for a notional sum yes beyond what our operating budget has been to maintain the fields", "we brought water to the fields and just to do basic infrastructure work on the property", "this is just to point out that we've done these assessments", "we've actually asked people to provide us with costs for the various projects that we've identified on the property and that the need is there", "this gives you an idea of what the cost would be", "and so it would be helpful if the select board would consider to hold a spot for us to be able to fund some of these costs in the coming fiscal year based on proposal that is more concrete than what i have right now", "that i personally speaking for myself i'm much more comfortable with that than what i thought we were being presented with", "i don't know if a motion is in order", "i think we're gonna be putting together the budget", "and this is calling into our attention to the need and the magnitude of the need and asking us to keep that in mind when we put the capital budget together", "yeah and i agree", "needs to be finalized in january", "yeah and right now there's eight thousand in addition to their normal budget", "how much eight", "what eighty eight i thought you said two", "if you understood the budget process you'd have known immediately that wasn't right", "it sounded like that but i'd know it wasn't", "which would buy all the materials for the fellowship of the wheel to do the work", "or maybe they load here the labor and they have to actually", "part of this process we'll just say has been to kind of reestablish a relationship with the fellowship", "and they have been very good at educating the mountain bike community about when the committee decides to close trails and try to manage for other uses and close the trail the trail network for hunting season", "they've been a great partner in these last couple of years in trying to get the word out", "and they've also sent us a lot of volunteers for our trail days over the year", "so they are entering a new phase of their organizational kind of structure in offering this consulting services", "and so they offered to supply us with this proposal and we were glad to have it", "since we have people here where are we on the gate there's something later on the agenda we finally were able to get the parties to agree on the negative easement language which had to be done as part of the agreement", "so later this evening i'm gonna ask you for permission to sign those easements in with that then we can start planning in earnest day to do all the infrastructure that's required in the spring", "can i personally say thank you very much for the work you're doing", "oh yeah absolutely", "now that i understand what you're doing i'm fully in support", "knowing that they gave in the fiscal year i just wondered where it was in the process", "so knowing you have a meeting coming up after that meeting if eight thousand", "realizing that any request isn't necessarily gonna be put in the budget but if you could let me know if that's a workable number or not then yeah we'll try we'll do with it actually", "and put on your letterhead", "is that beyond our kind of operations yeah it's above and beyond", "it's two separate pots of money", "okay great that's good to know", "thank you", "what's next i lost my agenda here", "oh there's my agenda thank you", "so next we're gonna discuss the jericho center speed study results with bob schermer", "yeah this is a bit of my fault", "i had been communicating with bob of the results and i thought it afforded him that he would actually be independent but i didn't", "so i told him i would put it back on the agenda", "we already have that actually i think", "no yeah i emailed him", "i don't know if you printed it off", "yeah somebody printed it", "somebody printed it cause we have copies", "yeah i made those", "thank you we have a couple of extras", "the history of this goes back", "and i know kim asked last time whether this was a sudden thing or whether this had come up big community began leaving in march", "and we had three different meetings wanting to discuss the issue in general", "two to actually walk and along with the engineer and todd to see what kinds of ideas they could come up with", "and three then to finally discuss concrete ideas", "so there were three different meetings involving about thirty five residents from the jericho center community", "and then finally todd and mike visiel i and john from the store actually looked specifically at the front of the store to see what possible solutions might be there", "i think that anecdotally anyway the increased policing has slowed traffic somewhat and the pedestrian the midstreet pedestrian walk signs have also contributed to some slowing in front", "my understanding is that the last meeting that because the speed has appeared to have dropped that the further traffic slowing measures that money for those will probably not come in the next capital budget", "that was too strong", "i think as one of the people who spoke at that meeting quite a bit i think you've over interpreted our reaction", "i think the reaction is more holy cow there's been more effects than we anticipated", "and therefore we ought to think carefully about whether we're gonna spend really large sums of money or at least whether we should do so quickly that there might be ways to increment since that relatively modest expenditure appears to have had an impact", "maybe we should approach this more incrementally but to say no there's not gonna be a twenty thousand speed table that's strong", "well actually it was because we talked about putting twenty thousand aside not for a speed table but for a real relook of the whole process and rethinking like that whole plan as opposed to just spending money on a speed table", "but this is we're not gonna spend money on a speed table", "we didn't come to that conclusion", "we've come to the conclusion that we might want to sneak up on this a little more gradually rather than suddenly", "but we were gonna spend money on a full look at the entire center in terms of really outside the box stuff because there has been a significant decrease in the speed through the center but clearly it's not where people want it to be particularly with pedestrian crossings and there and the outer sections", "i mean we recognize it's not perfect but out of means but there's been a great reduction but the idea is because these have made a difference we can continue with little bits while we do this larger study so that we can maybe rethink how you even approached the center on the design it needs to be engineered better and so it cost money in terms of maybe moving all the parking in front of the store and rerouting a road you know putting in a putting in a road a roundabout", "where the parking lot is", "i mean without changing the total amount of paved area not encroaching on the green itself", "in theory and it has dan nelson put a proposal whether the measurements are right and whether they work to meet code i don't know", "we don't know that the concept is a new one and is interesting and would possibly mean we don't have to put speed tables", "we would get the result from changing the flow of traffic", "and these are things that are worth looking at", "had the things we done had no impact there'd be a lot stronger feeling while we got to really crank up the the speed tables and what not", "to crank up the speed tables", "but since we see incremental actions resulting in incremental results maybe that means we need to do more of that", "let me try and express what my concerns are", "i remember it was mark twain that said there lies largely lies in statistics", "and one of the problems as i looked at some of the results of those studies was that yes eighty five of the traffic going by north of the score is traveling at twenty nine miles per hour or less", "what that doesn't say is that there are seven hundred and eighteen vehicles every day who are exceeding that", "yeah i take your point", "and it is those seven those are the kill your kids", "that i'm worried about as i go back", "i just didn't want the select board to sum i had this feeling with these statistics that eighty five sound probably we have not come to the conclusion that all is well", "no", "in fact only three or four days ago i was at the store when ingrid mom and his kid was nearly killed", "and it was really close that close kid was", "i might actually have been a hit but he managed to fall back", "the car stopped and he wasn't actually killed but it was that close", "and that's the one person that was going forty", "and the real bad thing was the visibility was poor", "so this person having decided they couldn't see very well decided quickly to go faster in order to get past before somebody pulled out or something like that", "and she was a young woman and she was devastated and crying and hopefully she'll never do that again but it wouldn't have helped with the kid who'd been killed", "so it's the one person out of a hundred not the ninety nine that'd beat the rule", "so that tells me we need solutions that guarantee that every single person not one not eighty five but one hundred", "and you can't get that with policing because the police can't be there all the time", "you have to get it with things that are unpleasant", "like speed tables but there might be other ways and nelson's proposal would possibly have a similar effect", "and you just couldn't go fast around this chicane", "all we're saying is incremental action did appear to have an impact", "we can't pretend it didn't", "and that suggests that we should do more incremental and not get revolutionary to yeah cause clearly at this point when it's time to repaint we can repaint the crosswalk make it more visible the one in front of the store", "and the other thing is with fog lines are wearing down", "and once those are out we can go ahead and restripe them inward which automatically makes people think the lanes", "reduce the speed again as well", "so these are small things that we can do while we're doing the larger picture", "because when we looked at the cost of what doing one speed table would be it's just huge", "against the cost of doing a and they don't last that long they wear down", "we thought the value is in a longterm study that we could actually rethink how the traffic actually flows through that whole center to make it again a more walkable community", "and the point which you're at your letter makes and many people have made which is away from the store there's a continuing problem", "so we have to deal with that", "all the points you make are well taken and your statistical points are welltaken", "we don't take this statistics imply everything's cool now we can forget about it", "we've done enough", "don't worry we do not take that as that", "i do think you overreacted and over interpreted where we got to last week and this is not gonna go away we're not gonna forget about it we're not gonna stop moving forward", "all we did say is maybe we don't have to take really big expensive steps right now", "maybe we can have incremental steps", "i agree with everything you've said what i would advocate for how i live i officially request that you in this i think it is a mistake for us to go into the winter with no visible crosswalk going across to this tour", "and i think that two things should happen that are not terribly expensive", "one there should be a y crosswalk very visible from roughly if you can do it that we're in the parking area is not way off the other side to the center of the store", "so that motorists get hint with this visual that says this is a crosswalk over to the store", "can you still paint at this time of the year it's one of the problems with where it is now is because it's stuck up there", "the vast majority of people including myself don't use it", "we walk in the middle", "i don't see it either as a motorist", "there is a sign at the side but you do not see the crosswalk at all", "and secondly that as you come from the south and north and pass the entrance of jericho center circle there so just before you get to the store if we could put one more pedestrian walks on there to take the motors before they get to that parking area", "so those two minimal things as we're looking at long range solutions no those were exactly kind of and i think that that's got we can move the whole line down", "i just don't know whether you can paint this time of year", "well i know you can paint it", "you can of course you can", "you can't like whether it'll stick on the road for the winter that's the problem", "i know that arizona in the winter i don't know when it's winter starts", "i would like to proposed that we consider that those are minimal steps", "they don't cost a lot of money", "i did just see a kid come within one eighth of an inch of being killed", "and personally he wasn't as far away as far as she is from me", "and that seems to be pretty minimal", "right and his point is hit because most people don't walk the crosswalk", "we walk right through the middle", "i just wanted to say i don't wanna sound cheeky here but you said you started by saying that the history of this and that the extensive history this will six months in terms of how we move with our traffic project", "i'm sorry but that is yesterday", "it's like we're town budget that's fast", "it is it's really fast", "it's like whoa", "well hey we would do a lot more on route fifteen if we were allowed or frankly", "six months whoa", "we got to talk about this and plan to plan it for at least three more years", "i'm only teasing", "i know and i know that things don't happen overnight", "i think that for the residents of the sander that they are aware almost on a weekly basis of either a car coming to a screeching halt or as you said somebody getting close to getting clipped", "and so there's this sense of urgency somehow that with you we are able to deal", "i sat out there for one hour from seven to eight o'clock in the morning on a weekday and we had six hundred and twenty seven cars go by", "and forty of which stopped at the store but the traffic is just amazing", "and the pity is of all the awkward spots in town almost all of them are outside our jurisdiction", "that's one of the few we can address and that frustrates we know and we have a lot of things to do", "i wanna thank you for the work and for pushing it forward and coming up with concrete ideas and understanding the constraints as they are and just for staying on it and sorry that it feels like we're not responding", "let me ask i'm gonna take a completely irresponsible straw polls sensitive meeting", "i asked todd what would happen if we asked the state to let us take over route fifteen and make it a town route thinking i was being completely off the mark just as an absurd idea that of course was ridiculous", "and he said he didn't think they'd jacked it off", "they mostly liked to get rid of their town that responsibility", "cause we don't have to maintain it", "and i'm not sure i actually liked that bargain as a whole but i think it's something given the importance of that road to the life of this town", "of course it's important to the life of other towns too but see this is our road", "it goes through our town right through", "it's the aorta of our town", "just with no responsibility nobody remembers nobody says what do you think of that it would cost us a bundle of money", "it would also generate some revenue", "i don't know whether the one matches the other but it would certainly because we could do things with it that would make", "i think maybe that would enable us to do", "would create development along on it it would generate development", "i mean there's a way of looking at it not as simply a through route", "make it as fast as possible", "get the people through who don't pay they don't contribute", "you could make that into something that was a little more that generated that helped stimulate development that would help the town", "maybe i'm not sure but it's not impossible", "and i'm not sure it's a good idea", "i'm not advocating this idea", "please i'm simply entertaining an idea it would among the other things that would enable to start doing things to deal with traffic that we simply can't do now and are very frustrated", "i think a lot of citizens that we can't do things", "todd you must have a pretty strong opinion about this because you worked for the village and the village is responsible for route fifteen there right yeah i worked for the town but the village took over route fifteen but they've been able to do a lot of things in a short amount of time because they own it", "it's been a good thing then they also have a larger budget", "yes but doesn't a lot of that money no it's really do not really", "oh that's interesting", "so maybe this isn't as crazy as i thought it was somebody has done it", "there's always tradeoffs", "you would likely need to add probably a plow truck if not the driver because i mean it's a super main artery that you have if clear not personally irresponsible for fifteen only", "so i mean they're cost based if ultimately you're looking to have control and be able to do what you would like and that's the way to do it might be worth it", "that's a longterm thinking process cool", "thank you", "before this discussion i had one thing i didn't hear about knowing that it's more important to fix the problems right at the store", "and everybody mentioned all the joes but as a resident who comes mainly into jericho center from the south there's still this slingshot effect as vehicles and drivers leaving jericho center get to the bottom of it", "it's like well we're in talladega and i think i mentioned it slammed on the accelerator and there's no site that's on site there", "you're absolutely right i thought i mentioned that even if we solve and we've made some breakfast with respect to the territory in front of the store three hundred yards out in either direction four hundred yards out either direction", "there hasn't been a lot of it", "there's been some lately", "but not much it's still a problem", "this is the number if you wanna look at the speeds the current speeds", "we still have people approaching the two crosswalks at the community center and that's where they slow down", "they're still close to thirty five miles an hour coming in from no you're right", "that's still better than it was in the nineties", "well that point is welltaken tom that point is well taken", "we haven't forgot that puddle", "mr valanou", "yes if i may kind of just ask a question or make a comment when the arp study was done and then it broke out in the end with some different committees", "and todd i hope you're listening to this really more of a question but one of the things that we were looking at in some of those committees i wasn't on it was the idea and it comes from the house of representative", "one of the people i think was on it there was a committee", "to look at the idea of taking over fifteen the pros and cons of them then you can have two and you got about what i got which is just they weren't ready when we had some of this stuff come to the overall i didn't realize that it would surface", "that was part of the", "is the arb thing and did it four committees that looked at", "one looked at i think the jolly intersection one looked at the park street intersection one looked at the gateway right", "and one look at taken over fifteen", "and i feel like i remember coming across my inbox it said not gonna happen", "did you say you worked", "worked for my husband i think he might've", "oh yes so i'd love to talk to him and see what they thought about it", "surface the email", "i'll ask him to forward that", "so they met for an afternoon or something like that or in the evening", "i think that the take over fifteen committee ended up being one or two people", "and i think it basically consisted of a couple of emails like email todd or email the state or maybe trans and said how does this work and then maybe the response was yeah you could have it as akasha boatload have fun", "i think that was then and then the whole that would be the time of that", "just repaint it", "kind of petered out", "and i gotta say it felt like we were doing good work and moving that conversation forward", "and it filled the whole thing kind of just wash away it evaporated", "well i will say the arp is a big reason why we're asking for the safe routes to school", "improvements i mean", "at least something's coming out of there", "i think for one more additional comment on the speed calming thing i think they need your name for the records", "dennis nelson i'm the one who's", "oh okay yeah", "so you're the one who gave us this list", "wow we should think outside the box", "well i think you should", "cause sounds very interesting", "it was very interesting", "yeah i'd like to see it go forward in some respect to the cut", "i don't pretend to be a traffic engineer at all but i was looking for some other solution that might help the parking for pedestrians as much as anything else", "i think the biggest issue is whether literally whether the thing like that can be engineered that meets all the codes and so on and so forth", "and i don't know that obviously we could", "that's why i put money aside for a study to see what we could take out of that have you seen that the oh yeah", "that was fast then", "the other question that comes up is the memories to the store and right these are things that have to be all kinds of that's why we need to study actually to think about how would you do this because that gives you a much longer term livability than a speed table", "and i like speed tables but it's not a holistic", "it's not a whole approach to the problem", "it's a span date", "it's annoying that's right that's it's sole view", "that's it's sole virtue", "we didn't let him finish", "yeah sorry", "cause we get so excited about your list", "but the only comment i was making as a very simple inexpensive expedient might be to take the speed limit sign that's on the incline and brown's trace going up", "again we're going from the north to the south up towards the fire station", "i believe that reads thirty five miles an hour right now", "and you know as a motorist you know your car is working hard to get the thirty five miles an hour", "and then you crest the hill and immediately we want people to slow down to twenty five", "so what i'm saying is why not just drop the speed limit sign on that hill section to maybe thirty or something", "it just takes five miles an hour off the speed that someone just gained going up the hill", "i mean it's simple enough and it might help a little", "your right mine would be a real question whether if they're going pay attention to it the problem is they don't pay attention to that cross but it's true if you're puttering along trying to get the you're putting the pressure on to get the so you're over thirty five by the time you at the top of the hill", "but catherine we're not worried about the five of the people who are dealing with as opposed to", "we're worried about this fifteen", "those are the ones that kill somebody", "and that's the problem", "there's a significant percentage the population is not paying any attention to the speed limit period", "unless there's a cop sitting there", "and it's not a statistical question", "it's a oneperson", "it's something physical with something physical than really close on that and speed tables are the extreme version of that", "but there are other things that actually slow people down speed limits they're really a better way to collect some money", "we pay for the study", "everybody else set with jericho center of speed issues", "can we move on to the next item which is the big one big one", "dennis thank you for that", "we really", "i wasn't sure how it will be received", "it was received very positively", "whether we can do it i don't know but it certainly stirred up the absolutely the other thing is some possibility beyond just throwing traffic to to the aesthetics of the town center", "definitely does", "there's no question", "it was appealing on a number of levels", "i actually understood that that's what you were talking about when you were here in person and i was excited about it then and then comments were misconstrued things went out on online discussion forums about how we were gonna pay for the green blah blah blah", "so what you did is you actually clearly drew in the lines and your proposal was something that we all could really understand and discuss", "she's smarter than i am", "i didn't realize that which she was saying", "i'm not smarter", "i was like oh that's an interesting idea", "so anyway thank you for taking the time", "if further on there's any need there i would be happy to contribute", "cool cool", "thank you", "land use", "yes so here we are", "purpose of tonight is to report back to you with the issues that were discussed", "oh geez i don't even remember when they were discussed", "two or three meetings ago with some recommendations on the policy level of where you wanted to go with issues that were raised", "assuming you said are those tonight then who would come back at your first meeting in november with the complete package with the changes that you assumingly would adopt and more to public hearing on or i believe i said it's december 6th and then you have that hearing and then adopter not the amendments", "so you look at the memo from jan", "what i will start with cause i think there's someone here from uvm perhaps", "yes", "the planning commission discussed on tuesday the issues that were raised your last that's not in here", "right cause this was prepared before they met yesterday tuesday actually", "and so they had discussed issue that was raised about the uvm requests and changes and what they would i'm sorry was this something that was discussed last evening yes", "can you bring me up to date please the uvm requests yeah it came to light that after the planning commission adopted their regulations and passed them on to the select board at some point in the past near the end of seth's 10year here there was discussions with the planning commission and uvm about possible changes to the open space district based on what uvm would like to do with the research forest", "and it appeared", "octobox", "yeah cause they wanted to do some structures", "it's mainly structures for educational purposes", "we don't really know for sure exactly what it is but what i've took notes is it said they want facilities to improve the classrooms the bathroom things like that", "we've never given us a master plan or anything that shows exactly what they want to do is", "but anyway so some language was worked up and then seth left and that never got back", "appears to the plane commission discussing it folded into these current amendments", "so the uvm their planner found out that it was coming here and saw that they weren't included so they want to just raise that issue", "and what the planning commission suggested on tuesday was that they would like the select board to keep the changes that are in the regulations now for open space during dealing with dormitories", "they think they should stay in and they will work over the next year or whatever it is", "the other changes that were discussed with uvm to be incorporated at a later time they didn't think it made sense to take out the proposed changes that were to happen there now they were limited to those dormitories", "i didn't bring my copy of that but i guess it doesn't matter what it says", "do you happen to have something that says british is i can go get it i'm realizing i might need it", "you know i looked at all the other changes with my copy but i didn't bring that", "where are my keys let me see if i can go get one quickly", "sorry", "in the meantime can i bring up another business your chair you can", "i talked to ann squires about the pumpkin and glow", "oh yeah", "and she's real concerned about not having traffic because she feels like a lot of people bring their kids through after they're in their jammies and you know elderly people like to drive through and they wouldn't wanna get out and walk", "and i agree with her", "she said what if somehow", "this buffet is a great idea what if somehow we just could distribute blinking lights like the kind that the police sometimes give out on halloween i don't know if you know what i'm talking about cause the real problem is when people turn lights off they can't see the pedestrians so all the people walking were given a little trick or treat light to hang around their neck even if there's a box where you drop it off on your way back out so the next person can use it", "i like that", "yeah and in fact i know that the essex police because i happen to be trick or treating in one of their really nice towns nice neighborhoods with a culdesac and the houses close together cause you get good stuff", "right they have police out and about handing them out already to all the kids", "so i don't know if that's something that we could just ask the state police to do", "and if they didn't we could spend fifty of the town money to buy these little lights", "sure that sounds like a great idea", "maybe you could do it with volunteers", "to distribute them yeah", "you just got to stand at one end of the you just stand and hand them to people yeah", "everybody comes in from this end of cilley hill", "and it's even possible that like hannaford has him to give away you know what i mean i've seen him before with a logo on them", "so you can have a sponsor a pumpkin glow sponsor", "have we ever been round the question of actually shutting down the cilley hill we talked about trying to make it a pedestrian thing so that there weren't the cars and the people at the same time", "and you know obviously for this year that's not gonna happen because i dropped well until now", "so her point is well taken that the elderly like to drive very slow cause they can't walk", "and then we have to figure out where are we gonna put all those cars and it's just another whole nightmare", "and that's a lot of kids who can't walk who can't walk there", "not really that's true", "even if it's bigger than that but not being able to walk well i wanted to make", "i was thinking it should be a oneway thing where you drive and you have to come out the other end", "but it's a lot of cilley hill yeah", "it's a hall it is a hall", "it is a hall really", "that's so way up on the other side of yeah it's really up too", "i know it's a hall but there's", "where you have is twoway traffic", "they all turn off their lights and then you have people walking on the road in the dark", "i think we are very certain about that not now", "i mean your proposal i'm absolutely in favor of it", "let's do it i'll make the motion if you want and proceed", "but i think we are good serious thought of making it well i can do what i can to try and find a source for these things but can we spend some of the town's money if it's gonna cost fifty to one hundred is that how much it's gonna cost or whether you get a sponsor we're not gonna have a meeting before", "well that's right halloween's coming up isn't it yeah", "so let's decide we'll spend up to a certain amount of money if necessary", "okay", "do you have any idea how much those little glow sticks cost cause you have little kids too", "i'll look into it cause you can buy yeah you can buy them online", "so shall we say one hundred and fifty bucks yeah that would be fine", "i move that we authorize the chairman to investigate the purchase and distribution of little blinky things", "not more than one hundred and fifty up to but not more than one hundred and fifty", "i'll second that", "awesome i'm gonna try and get them for free", "hey i'm thinking one of our senators is up for election and he likes to put his name on everything", "so maybe", "well good take the vote then we quit", "yes we do", "he made a motion because it's money", "i made a motion", "oh all those in favor aye", "we're all on records of supporting this outrageous irresponsible expenditure", "one hundred and fifty blinky things", "the only change was adding a dormitory hostel as a use", "did you read the whole section then sorry", "i mean just that paragraph or whatever it is", "i can read you the description of dormitory hostile cause that's the real part of the thing what it is", "so that's one that's not in here", "and that's been changed so that's gonna be in there but they don't want any of her other changes like whatever the issue is", "yeah they're not gonna incorporate anything else in at this time just stay with what was proposed to you in regards to the open space district and they'll deal with the rest another time", "next time right", "cause there is gonna be another iteration obviously", "right so the one that's in here now in regards to open space district is additional the use of a dormitory hostel which is an overnight lodging facility offering temporary lodge educational programs and or other goods and services to members affiliates or partners lodging still not exceed thirty days in a fourmonth period with no more than fourteen consecutive days", "i think that was her problem", "is that the timeline didn't work is that correct that would be true", "by the way it's really four year", "and i work with lonnie i'm a planner as well and sort of filling in but i think the concern at that time was that fourteen days for a dormitory would be hard to fill the dormitories so we can house somebody for fourteen days but we're not objecting to this at all", "like we think it's probably a better approach to wait and start over again with the planning commission", "and i think they encouraged her to send a letter if i'm not mistaken right to reintroduce those needs that the university needs up there at the jericho research", "are you sure any sort of master plan that they may have that wasn't done before it's just for i think it's nice to have", "if there's any there wasn't much nervousness", "it was pretty clear that we were comfortable with that solution that had been arrived at and lost but it would be even more comfortable if you had an actual plan of what was gonna be built", "it wasn't openended", "or at least work with the planning commission to what you need", "i think that's what they suggested to lonnie that she put that information together and come back again", "we missed the boat", "we weren't on your schedule watching when these amendments were being worked on", "so we're happy to come back and she'll put it together and this will work for you in the interim then", "i think it will", "cause rather than totally eliminated that's good okay", "go ahead", "so and go through the issues here", "the first one concern that was raised was this addition of language about accessory structures of not being able to have a small accessory building associated with residential use that was more than a hundred percent of the gross floor area", "what is the gross floor area is that all the floors or just the footprint no it's the square footage the gross floor area", "so if you have a three story house it's three times the footprint right so the recommendation is that proposed change just be dropped there they have", "yeah that makes sense that they worked with what they were trying to", "cause i think it was the quantity that one of the members was actually concerned about more than anything on point", "right so good i can build that ballroom i've always wanted", "oh yes and you don't have to tear out your living room like a friend of ours has done", "well this is an accessory structure it's the tango i'm gonna give tango lessons saturday night", "okay so the next one was drive throughs", "and the first part of that is where a drivethrough as an accessory use could be allowed", "in the current draft it's allowed as an accessory use in all districts it became a real issue", "what the select board the options they have are to obviously just leave it as it is", "you could place restrictions you could limit the actual areas if you wanna allow them in any districts you can limit those districts that they can actually occur in", "and then you could", "or you could choose not to allow them in any district and then a separate discussion if you allowed them anywhere then you know what sort of primary use are they allowed to be tied to because obviously you don't have just to drive through that", "that's the accessory", "when do you want us to discuss this cause obviously i have something to say", "but now i'm just telling you that uses your i think it would make sense at this point to put a moratorium on him for silver reasons", "one even in the discussion they said that they needed to go back and talk about whether they wanted to just limit it to certain things", "this gives them the opportunity to more research", "the other issues have to do with all the stuff with ecos and the new regional plan because it's gonna be very important for the planning commission to really think about how they want the town to grow to be a sustainable library community", "because the idea behind the new regional plan is that eighty of all plannings going to take part on fifteen of the growth districts just the growth districts", "so that if you put like a house in the rural you better have four structures in the growth district to keep it to the eighty", "and that's because they're trying to really concentrate", "so you really wanna make sure you're building your growth district the way you want it", "what is our growth district we have our little threevillage growth districts", "the villages are the growth districts well the village centers", "we have our designated growth districts", "so what about all the commercial property that's part of your growth", "well the commercial properties aren't in the village", "it's the villages and the commercial areas", "but that's where eighty of your growth is supposed to happen", "so that it's a pretty radical change from the way it happen before", "well actually that they did the history and that's historical growth patterns", "and they're trying to get up till when up till", "the last thirty years exactly", "so they're trying to get back to the historical like the way it's been i've been growing for thirty years", "they're training it back to the history because the idea is for us", "are we gonna start a milling company at the mill i mean are there going to be industries in the mill it's whatever you want but i'm saying that's why i'm suggesting a moratorium on the drivethrough so that people can decide how you want you're what you're really looking for in your town rather than really start thinking about this cause this is actually going to be happening", "the answer to your question is no", "that's what i'm saying why do we wanna increase i'm just talking about drive through", "the concept she had is concentrate development i understand the concept", "it doesn't mean that every that the growth areas can be used for anything", "you don't build factories in our village center that's not gonna be appropriate", "well no you're misunderstanding maybe where i was going with it which is that i think people should live close to other staff", "so when that was a mill and these little houses came up around the mill that makes perfect sense", "now there's nowhere to work", "i see what you mean", "there's nothing there except and that's what the idea is to push more and more people to your centers and to bring the commercial support that goes with that", "but that's why i'm suggesting", "but that's the idea", "that's why i'm suggesting the moratorium i drive through it", "so those people the public commission actually has time to really think about what's going to make our vibrant communities", "what do we wanna see how do we wanna see it because this is really gonna be a limiting factor", "the other issue is we are on the state under its comprehensive energy plan wants us to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by fifty by two thousand and twenty eight", "and they can't do it without chittenden county and chittenden county can't do it without the municipalities", "and as part of the ecos regional plan we're gonna have a climate action plan and that also will give", "so it gives them also", "i'm trying to give them time to think about the research to find out how much greenhouse gas emissions do you have for eileen under specific kinds of drivethroughs", "we talked about this at length and i know where you're coming from but i'm on the fence with this because i filed a very valid point that people drive out of their way to get to businesses", "that's why i want them to hate the time", "i'm not saying it's forever i'm not saying forever", "i'm saying a moratorium to develop these ideas", "to get a plan to get a plan", "where we want them what we want it to be", "cause they even said they needed to think about do they do restaurants do they do banks so you can do the research to find out how much greenhouse gas of this uses comes from banks or from you know so you really have to but that's not the only factor", "no it's the greenhouse gas emission but it's gonna be the regional plan", "you've got the regional plan that has to deal with where your growth districts how you want them to develop", "all these things are coming together in the next year", "also there's going to be formbased zoning", "and that gives them another tool to figure out what they wanna have and how you wanna put it", "so that might be another way of looking at a structure that has a drivethrough", "so when you say moratorium you mean we should go with the third option that todd proposed which is no drivethroughs at all in any district for any reason", "for the time being", "and then we come back with two years or something", "and then they can come back with these really great results cause there's all this new stuff coming in in terms of formbased zoning and stuff", "so you can have ideas of", "it could look much more like a european town but you'd still have a drivethrough", "right that'd be a different guy of drives through", "b ut it'd be different than a through", "that's what i'm saying", "so we really can get an idea of how we want our town to grow to be this vibrant community that we want it to be", "i'm not saying never i'm just saying let's yeah i'm not anti drivethrough at all", "and i don't think there's much evidence that the idling a we don't even know that there is well let me finish", "the idling it produces more toxins than the extra trips to get there's statistics on some of that but you have to get it", "so i'm just saying this gives time to actually look at all those numbers because i mean you're right", "greenhouse gas emissions the most impact we can have is to reduce the vehicle miles traveled which is what we're trying to do with the bus is to increase the mileage of the fleet and increase the amount of electric cars", "i mean that has to be we want development", "we want the money in this town we want businesses to go to in this town so that we don't have to spend all our money and assets in south burlington", "i'm not sure if driveins are positive or negative about that i'm not sure either", "i'm just saying but that's why i'm trying to give them the time to think about what the new plans are to just let's say let's go with not doing anything right now with drivethroughs to really fulfill what this will look like", "i've been a bit agnostic i'm not ideological and drop it right through it's either way", "i just don't think we've fully vetted", "i think catherine has a point about we're really not sure where we want to go with this", "so why make decisions that you can't back out on yeah i understand", "i just didn't want it to be like a statement about drivethroughs", "no", "i'm just saying this gives the them time to do research and things like that really fully think about what we want our community", "cause you're right", "we wanna be able to live and shop and stuff in our community", "but there's all kinds of things gonna be happening including formbased zoning which will make this really charming little village and you can shop and do things and stuff like that", "walk around", "walk around sure", "i'm not saying get rid of it i'm just saying let's think about it", "figure out how to do it best", "all right", "so it sounds like there's a consensus on that", "yeah i think so", "okay number three was there were some comments regarding the natural resources", "staff is proposing that you hold off on any of those comments until the next round because the planning commission had planned on taking up natural resources issues", "in fact that's a great idea", "my husband actually mentioned it after i talked about this", "and he said tom has actually talked about this for years is that the planning commission does not use our advisory committees when they're doing these things", "that the first time they ever get to hear any of this stuff is when it comes to public hearings which is we have the advisory committees of the energy task force and the natural resources committee and the planning commission should be using them", "conservation commission you mean yeah conservation commission because it actually gives the planning commission actually more resources because especially the conservation commission right now they have a lot of actual real expertise there", "and that's what the advisory committees are for", "and they should be used by the planning commission to help", "and state statute says that with the energy coordinators forest will provide input to the planning commission", "so i don't know it hasn't been done in the past", "i was the drb when i was chaired did use the conservation commission as an advisory as we needed it", "but i don't know", "do we just give a sense of the board or just say they should be using them cause they should that's what their role is and they don't hear about it until it comes to public hearing which doesn't make sense", "yeah we can communicate that back or we will communicate that back", "okay", "fuel sales so the first one was to remove the fuel sales as the only specified use that's under pud", "so we're suggesting to remove fuel sass from pud cause it just doesn't really make any sense", "the discussion that they had last time made sense", "in the definition of fuel sales there was reference to in the village center", "and since they're no longer permitted in the village center it made sense just to remove the reference to in the village center", "and so then obviously if you were taking out the pud section that you have to take it out of the definition of planning unit development and so these are essentially the technical clarifications correct", "darry do you have a question i just remembered something about the discussion about needing to go back and look about someone with one of the select board members asked about that something needs to remain in there retroactively", "do you remember that discussion about the fuel sales thing that i thought todd was going to go ask yes it didn't have to", "check", "so that was it sounds good and fuel sales landscaping requirements something that staff caught that you may wanna consider if you want to disregard it that's fine", "it's just that", "and we caught this cause it came up recently in a drb hearing", "there's a proposed change in the landscaping requirements and the sentences in red which that is currently being proposed for deletion and it's an evaluative landscaping requirements", "credit may be granted for existing tree cover or for site improvements other than paintings as long as the objectives of this section are not reduced", "i think the discussion from the plank which is how do you put a value on the existing landscaping you can't really do that so we should take it out", "the staff thought it was important to keep in because you wouldn't want to see someone remove any existing tree cover if it is valuable just because they're gonna have to make way for something else because they're required to spend so much on landscaping and it's discretionary that the drb doesn't have to consider the existing vegetation they can if they feel necessary", "perhaps i'm thick but it's the only place where an actual quantity is three", "so that's of the new construction improvement costs", "i read that which you do know the cost of", "i know what they're saying is how do you put a value on the existing tree cover or site improvements to say well you know the construction cost is a hundred thousand", "so three of that you need to spend three hundred or whatever on landscaping", "and they have some trees what are the values of those trees oh i see the three is not new", "it includes whatever's there already", "the drb has the discretion to say what you're proposing to do isn't disturbing the existing", "i have to say this is the way i read the language", "so it seems to me is the problem that doesn't exist", "you've got a solution to a problem that doesn't exist", "i would read this for all site plans", "the drb may require a minimum planting costs of up to three of total construction improvement costs", "that to me says you're spending three hundred and fifty thousand", "you have to spend three of that on landscaping", "and whatever's there before doesn't count", "this is new new three expenditure of your new", "correct", "and what the drb can do is in that sentence in red which is proposing to be removed but the drb can do is say", "well they can take it they can take into account the existing vegetation", "i got it", "so the planning commission wants to remove that until they figure out how you value it", "well what they are trying to say is how do you put a value on it you never can", "they just simply say we think this needs another ten thousand worth of stuff in order to make it presentable but that's on top of", "the credit makes no sense", "they don't have to just cause there is existing tree cover", "they're not bound to count that towards the three", "what they can do is say if it's an extraordinary existing landscape and why make you do more if you think this is appropriate take it out", "makes no sense", "that's right okay", "good that's what we wanna bring up", "makes no sense", "if they want them to spend three more money than that's new money on top of whatever happens to be in place now", "and that's if they don't want to make them spend it and they don't make it bad it's there that's fine", "you're right that sentences is there right", "is pointless and redundant", "okay and then the public versus private shoes it was brought up that there was an error really and just the two words were the same", "the two words right", "so that's it", "so what we'll do is we'll come back with these changes in the final document at the next meeting", "if you don't want a public hearing", "well that's when it will be proposed", "that's what we do", "that's what you do", "catherine i think you were wrong because tim was chair in august", "so september october november it's three months", "no we go four months", "no we go three months remember we started in the middle of march", "so it's march april may june july august", "you were chairs september october november", "this is october he's gonna chair next month", "oh okay", "yep so that's two more months", "then december january february", "yep cause you said i was done tonight", "right i thought we'd done tonight", "yeah exactly", "just thinking about thanksgiving already", "you get another month", "you get another month", "oh goodie", "yeah you're right", "i was giving you extra credit", "job you stayed this long", "was there something you were here for about the land use", "actually next year it's gonna be very exciting for bylaw construction on natural resources and part of the longterm ecos project because they had done research in all the town plans and zoning and found how much flowery language we'll have but how little teeth anybody had or how inconsistent the language was", "and that's one of the things that is going to be beefed up in a regional plan", "and because of this focus on the land use plan where the growth is the new focus is gonna be on developing how to preserve our working landscapes and the natural resources and things like that", "so you probably you and your commission will be busy helping with that next year", "job the full membership there'll be it'll be easier to make sure that somebody gets to every planning commission meeting where that is part of that discretion", "so looking forward to that very good", "thanks", "so for the budget at this point what i wanted to do is show you how the revenue side was looking at this point", "and then i plan on bringing a few departments at a time and okay so it wasn't a mistake that the expenses stopped", "yeah i know i went back to the website to see did i drop something other than in the subject of the memo i guess it wasn't really clear about what it was", "so not really a whole lot of changes in the revenue", "i've mentioned all the changes here in the memo", "i'll just hit on the biggest ones", "line number eight we're anticipating a class two grant to cover goncalo works", "so we're budgeting that one hundred and seventy five thousand in revenue grant revenue nine twenty increasing the anticipated law enforcement funds of ten thousand from what we had budgeted previously it's still below what our actual was for last year", "so i feel it's pretty safe", "and this is just a projection", "i mean it's a budgetary projection", "yeah right but it's it's a safe it's an expectation", "based on historical numbers", "right and line twenty five is slight increase in recording these two come a little closer to what the actual spend just because it looks like with interest rates continuing to be low for awhile that we'll probably continue to have prefinances reduction in less than a thousand dollars of a merge license revenue", "i think we ought to make a push to get back revenue item up", "marriage yeah", "i think we should do that by advertising that we are a friendly home base for gay marriages", "all of them come here and pay you a thousand dollars", "get married in mills river", "yes through the gazebo", "it cost a thousand dollars you wanna make some money or not but we don't have any facilities", "we will", "i haven't built my ballroom yet", "it's a joke", "the tango tell us i think i like that", "we're in thirty three an increase in i was like olivia olivia did you actually know this is a fact that vermont is the number one state for destination weddings i know yeah we have some good gay friends in philadelphia who want things passed like this it's not even that there are straight people who come up here because everybody who lives in connecticut and new york they think they want this quaint thing but they don't necessarily want to haul everybody too far away", "this is driving", "no they gave us a call", "but as soon as it was passed here we wanna come up and arrange the whole thing at your house will you have us and they say of course we'll go", "oh awesome", "awesome that's great", "we'll go with whose in charge here", "so line thirty three the increase in snowplowing revenue", "we did at the end of last winter increased their rates by a good portion that had been discussion at town meetings", "or we raised them as much as we thought we could get", "anyway and then why is there two dollars in the town library to see if you're paying attention", "i don't know but i don't have their revenue projections yet", "so you can ignore me", "i just wondered dummy and went well okay", "attracting a really dismal year for their books and regular use", "no i don't have their numbers yet so you can put this here", "for this you have the budget from fy the school year oh look at here", "yes number thirty four", "cause it says fiscal year thirteen we have zero", "and then we have two vikes", "let's see here", "and then we get to the use of the reserve funds", "this is where you can see the capital budget tying in", "the first one you come to is open space fund that's eight thousand we're talking about for the mobbs projects", "above and beyond their regular project correct correct", "to do their projects with which they can't find out where did you come up with that eight thousand their last year's request no that trail proposal that you weren't here", "no you were here for that meeting", "i had asked them to give me an idea of some projects they would", "did they have any projects and give me an idea of some of the projects that you had to come up with a not justifiable number to put in for projects that are above and beyond", "and that's when she gave me the fellowship as an example of the type of work to come up with a dollar figure", "the total of what that proposal was it was like sixty seven so i just plugged in the numbers", "but she said tonight based on the consultant the actual timber and stone that they had come through", "plus they're looking at anywhere thirty to fifty thousand worth of trail", "actually that was a really broad estimate based on", "cause that consultant that proposal some of it's already been done and yeah but some yes but he'd asked for a broad", "and everything's still drafted", "it's just a working well and it's only five hundred more than we funded some of those bridges this past year", "well that seven thousand five hundred is actually for the parking lot", "yeah that's right it's the parking lot", "finally get through", "and we put money in when we did the transfers we did put money into the open space fund land improvements so that's is there any reason why we wouldn't put in parentheses mobbs repairs under oath that line item well you'll have that in your budget when you have your full budget you'll have what we're doing with that", "yeah what you're doing with it", "but i mean for when it gets printed", "yeah right cause what you'll see is actually we did it last year in the capital budget description", "we put the line item that referred to in the jet in this budget", "so they could hire", "and you'll have a description like you have now but i don't want to put it in the budget presentation because then it just gets messy", "so further down the sidewalk and past fund that's twenty thousand for the comprehensive pedestrian bicycle plan for the town that's coming out of the sidewalk and past fund the forty seven buildings and property fund that's a placeholder for painting and repairs to the exterior of the town hall", "we have some feeds that have holes in", "yeah they were supposed to have been painted when the town hall was renovated they never got up to it", "and then forty eight is from the road improvement fund twenty thousand for the jericho center reconfiguration planning whatever you wanna call it", "and then also plugging in two thousand five hundred for goncalo improvements as part of that package", "it's up to fifty no forty five you just said twenty five and twenty five no i said twenty and twenty five", "oh i'm sorry i heard you wrong", "that's fine", "and it's possible we might not need to spend that much because these are both planning projects we'll put them in a request to the rpc for technical assistance projects which would mean we'd only have to pay twenty", "i would dearly like to not spend twenty thousand for planning when we've just had a citizen beat us up for not spending twenty thousand on an actual physical speed reducing item", "it looks a little bit with saying we don't we think twenty thousand for speed tables a bit much but then we're spending twenty thousand on planning", "you said that that gives you a longterm view where as you said the night you said the nineteen thousand wears down", "yeah just think of the optics of it catherine", "yeah i know", "well that's right", "we will try not to spend that much but that kind of planning costs that kind of money", "i understand whether if we wanna look at that idea then it's gonna cost money", "i understand but spending twenty thousand on planning and then not spent the same twenty thousand you put a spend on something that actually for sure reduces speed but it looks a little bit except it turns out when you looked at my wiesel's thing one wasn't enough", "you needed three", "and not everybody's in favors of them", "no no", "although quite a few but you're right i'm just concerned", "everything will look a lot better and we'll all be better served if we can not spend twenty grand on this thing if we can find somewhere", "i would like to not spend that much but we will but if it's on a project that you wanna do and there's no grant funding for it you gotta be here but this so it's gotta be here cause you can't do it then", "we always look for other ways to have it paid for", "that's it right have somebody else spending somebody else's money", "that's what i'm saying", "and then just to know as i'm doing the expenses and past budgets i had included a salary increase as i'm doing it this time i'm not it's that because we need to decide on that later or you're not gonna recommend one or i don't know at this point i'm not recommending one but at all not even like a caller there isn't much inflation", "right at this point i'm not i mean the board can always do something different but that's the approach i'm taking to the budget", "have you seen the number for this time than ninety million social security it's sixteen cents", "no it's eighteen", "in money sixteen eighteen of this is the regular inflation", "no eighteen is the caller for sort of security which is like twenty a check", "oh is it that much yeah", "a monthly check yeah for yeah that was correct", "i mean you obviously have plenty of time to discuss it but that's the approach rather than starting one my main reason for concern the inflation is so low and most people feel this is a pretty good job but what worries me is about getting behind where you don't do it and then you got to have a five increase and a five increase looks terrible if it comes along at a time when other people are suffering", "so i feel uncomfortable falling behind", "i feel uncomfortable not giving any increase at all unless there's a good reason not to", "i think it's kind of a slap in the face to not have any increase", "i think we're on the same side", "okay so it would be", "what makes sense two", "one and a half", "there's no standard it's a decision but i think we're all uncomfortable with zero", "for various reasons we have different reasons", "let's think about what it ought to be", "well as i go i'll prepare scenarios", "it's very easily with the spreads which i have set up to spit out a one of two whatever percent you want and let's do one and a half and a two cause one half gets you around the caller", "very good so that's all i kind of feel like no increase is almost like leaving no check", "you only do that when the performance is bad", "i mean leaving a tip", "leaving no tip on service", "or a financial or financial hardships", "i mean we didn't", "when times are bad and you don't wanna go out and tax people for it", "there are lots of reasons but there has to be a reason not just for the hell of it", "so you're not gonna go through the rest of the page and just just there because it's just the way it prints off", "but i don't wanna go through the revenue", "okay cool", "so let's approve the minutes for august 18th", "that was just you and me tim and i read them over and they looked fine to me", "do i hear a motion to approval i hear a motion move to approve the minutes i will second that", "all in favor aye", "i make a motion to approve the minutes of october 4th with", "let's see", "or maybe i didn't", "anyway i'll make a motion to approve the minutes", "all in favor i assume you second that yes", "all those in favor aye", "well i can't write", "happy business", "i have some other business i've got one business item", "and that is as i mentioned before authorizing me to sign the easements related to the mobbs farm parking lot settlement", "do you need a motion yes", "i make a motion that todd sign the easements for the mobbs farm easement settlement", "remind me exactly what they are", "we've through it and i know it's okay but i wanna be reminded", "we agreed to not expand the parking lot as it was approved beyond the negative whatever this phase for thirty years but no longer than that individual actually lives there", "so whatever is shorter", "whichever is shorter okay", "i remember", "it's gone if they don't if they stay there forever", "i forgot what a negative easement meant in this context", "it's agreed to not do something as opposed to being able to do so well we can go up to twenty if necessary", "so i made that motion", "i second it", "all those in favor aye", "and so last night the working draft discussion of the ecos plan went to the regular rpc meeting after spending a long time discussing it at the executive committee", "and the process is they will be coming to visit us to talk here about municipal concerns or any questions we may have on it", "i believe now in december it's going to go to the eco steering committee next week and they're gonna talk about some more changes but then it goes to in january to the final eco steering committee where it then becomes the rpc", "and what's interesting is even last night at the regional planning commission there were some commissioners who went oh is this really gonna become the regional plan they didn't connect that it's a totally new document cause it's gonna incorporate the regional plan the mtp and the gpic economic development plan all in one thing and then so they forget to realize that money will flow according to this", "exactly", "and it's going suddenly it's serious business", "the developed land use plan development map that they're using comes from all the town plans where are the group districts and stuff but this is going to be the way that the act two hundred and fifty hearings and in the appendices you're gonna have the full mtp documents the full economic development documents all the criteria that was used to develop ecos as well as the climate action plan that will be added to that", "the talks about how we're going to reduce our greenhouse gases", "the ecos project is also going to actually give us parameters and targets so that we can measure each year how we are doing with our plan whether we're meeting these goals of can i", "first of all what does eco stand for it's", "oh god i always forget that", "it's environmental community opportunity sustainability because it comes up how do you make a sustainable community okay well i know what it's about", "i just didn't know the actual symbol", "now it comes a question", "this is now moving to produce the kind of document upon which in our case tens if not twenties and thirties of millions of dollars of federal money will move that's the mtp yeah", "i mean it always comes that way", "it'll be other moneys", "are grants for sidewalks and stuff", "is this gonna right and those are all gonna change too based on what the feds are doing but yeah but this is a whole new it's gonna hold right because in looking at the grants that come through if you first look at it and go oh but then you realize okay this is what the new document is because it's talking about food insecurities workforce training issues", "i mean it really is all kinds the rubber hits the ground the dollars start moving", "here instead of there", "so what i'm to suggest to todd i'll also pass it on if he can pass it on and i'll send a note to jennifer as well but i think it would be well advise the planning commission look at this document to see because also the accd grant that funds the regional planning commission wants the regional planning commissions to look at town and look at their municipal plan and look at their zoning and see if there is a disconnect between the two and what needs to be done to make sure there isn't that disconnect", "so there's a lot of things that are gonna be happening", "so it makes sense if the planning commission looked at the vehicles grant and got their input in before it becomes this is fascinating", "yeah it really is", "well it's fascinating", "and i think a lot of people are gonna wake up and discover some horses are out of the barn that they haven't realized", "absolutely because you look at this whole thing on", "here's the planning commission that we've always dealt with planning and now we've merged and become transportation as well", "and all of a sudden we're dealing with all kinds of human issues", "probably different stuff", "the education the food insecurities the refugee issues it's all a whole big new package that we're going wow and you're right", "taking on a whole new meaning", "it is it really is", "you're right when commissioners are waking up last night and go this is the regional plan cause it looks so different", "that's interesting i like that", "that's kind of what the transportation research center is all about was taking that old traffic engineering part of what people think of as road plant or engineering and really making it a study of sustainability", "the principle is really a great thing", "the issue being old and having scars i discover over time that almost everything gets gamed", "the old planning systems have been gained and have sort of ceased to be anything more than a mechanical way to hand money out to people who are good at playing the game", "it's good to stir those games up", "as a matter of principle it's sturdy to shake them up", "and this is shaking them up for some rather good things", "in fifteen years it'll be gained", "but in the meantime i think maybe some cool things will happen", "there's some very exciting ideas coming out", "so it must surface with wifi hello", "starting next summer", "the beginning of a whole new world", "i know cause i can even come and take the bus downtown and do something cause i won't drive", "well and i'm saying my office is at one church which is literally like a couple stores down from champion cherry where the deep buses go", "so i literally am gonna be able to like hop on it", "when i grew up when i was a little kid during world war ii we lived in ten fifteen miles at town", "we had no car", "most people have no car", "and we went to town by the bus", "and the bus came by i would say every forty minutes there so it was very usable more or less anytime you wanted you got on the bus", "when you had to come home you came up", "it was an old world cost ten cents", "we lived in rochester new york should we adjourn yes i would make a motion in turn and then we can", "i'll second that", "all those in favor 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susan is here to represent the directors of the board and she's feeling lonely so be a comfort to her", "i draw your attention to the warning which is on page fifty six of the town report", "and at the same time i'm gonna draw your attention to the reports of the officers of the school which start on page fifty eight and the budget which is on page sixty one", "seem to me to be the critical things you wanna pay attention to", "we're a little bit at sea about how to proceed because we are going", "there are a set of reports in the town report and we also have a budget to prove", "and susan is going to speak to both town reports and budget", "so i haven't quite figured out how to fit that in but we'll see what we can do", "i'll begin by asking what you would like to do with article i which is to hear and act upon the reports of the town officers of the school officers", "and i remind you this is an explicit reference to the written reports that are in the report whether you are happy with them and submit it or whether you'd like to make comments or corrections to the reports of the directors", "and just remind you of that susan will also give an oral report", "article i", "okay so article i has been moved by jesse and is there a second thank you gentlemen", "what would i do without you so i think without", "i think what i'll do is move on to written reports", "if you have any comments or questions about those and then we'll treat susan's presentation as all relevant to article two", "i'm sort of making this up", "anything about the written reports you'd like to comment on the budget", "so the question is on article twoi", "thank you", "i think the meat of the matter would be when we listen to susan", "so gary nothing i take it that you have no comments to the written reports and they can be accepted as presented", "i'm gonna ask for your vote on that", "all those in favor accepting article one reports as presented please say aye", "aye", "oppose nay", "abstain abstain", "article one is passed", "okay article two is the inevitable article to allow the school board to do business", "this comes up every year it's routine", "it reads voters with the jericho town school district authorize the school board under sixteen psa fifty two nine to borrow money like issuance of bonds or notes not in excess of anticipated revenue for the school year that this is in order to make it possible for money to be available to short term until taxes are collected to keep things moving", "what do you wish to do with article two moved by paul gross and seconded by okay any questions or comments or discussion about authorizing the school board so none are you ready to vote all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "oppose no", "and abstain abstain", "article two's passing unanimously", "all right let's get article", "let's see what you wanna do with article three", "so article three is to vote a budget of three million seven hundred and ninety eight thousand five hundred and ninety eight to meet the expenses and liabilities of the town school district", "what do you wish to do with article three paul gross moves the article onto the floor", "is there a second so we can finish it off jesse fountain", "jesee fountain second", "all right so i will invite susan then to give her presentation which as i say is a combination of report information and aid in understanding the budget", "use the mic please and feel free by the way to interrupt at any time it is actually possible for you", "i should say just a couple of interesting things", "you can amend this project by changing the money but you cannot direct that money to a specific purpose", "there's a peculiarity of school meetings that you can say well i wanna increase the school budget and advise the directors how to assign that increase but you can't tell them how to do it", "that's the business that we have before you", "yeah", "so that means we could amend the bottom line but we can't amend that's right", "you have to advise them as to how to proceed", "i raised before to reaffirm hey good afternoon", "can you hear me okay let me", "let's see", "well let's see where you are", "start talking", "good afternoon", "keep talking", "welcome to this whatever how's that that you want me to go to this jericho town school", "back people are you hearing her that's all i got okay how about if i put it a little closer is that better yes", "use your teacher voice", "all right i'll do that", "i'll use my mother voice okay there we go", "go", "okay that's better", "there we go", "so welcome and appreciate that this", "i have come to believe over the years that it is the true diehards who care so deeply about our town and our school who just come back after the lovely lunch period to listen to us talk about our school", "so appreciate everyone being here and welcome questions and comments", "i am here representing all five of the board members so none of whom was able to make it", "one who made still be straggling in but others who had work commitments", "so can we go to the vision slide there we go", "i will always like to start with just reminding us all of jericho elementary school's vision statement which is to provide a quality education to all students", "we do this by celebrating diversity forming a strong academic foundation ensuring that students understand their local community and environment and nurturing children's innate curiosity so that they can participate in our democratic society and in the global community", "we do this in a collegial and innovative environment", "and i'm not gonna read each of these items but you can peruse the ways", "some of the many ways in which we celebrate diversity", "could you explain pbis sure", "pbis stands for positive behavioral intervention and support", "and it's basically a schoolwide", "i don't know if i would call it discipline system but i don't really love that word", "what would you say vicky schoolwide behavioral support system", "schoolwide behavioral support system", "and i don't like the word discipline because it connotes to me that we're only responding to negative behaviors and that is not what pbis is all about but that's what it stands for", "okay ways in which we form a strong academic foundation", "there are many is there a few of the highlights", "understanding our local community and nurturing learners innate curiosity", "i might just add not on this slide but of note", "i think our fabulous enrichment program that we have at jericho elementary school which is available to all students", "and new this year and integrated arts program going by the acronym of colm which stands for connecting our library and music", "so kids are doing some projects that connect to sort of some of their special classes and some really interesting fun innovative ways", "and if anyone's interested we can talk more about that later", "okay so our vision statement informs our action plan curriculum and assessment which all sort of then inform each other", "just information on enrollment last year this year and what's anticipated for next year", "so you can see that our enrollment is actually going up due in large part to a large incoming large kindergarten class this current school year", "why is the old school special education member that's just a function of how many students we have at any given time who actually are eligible to receive special education services", "so it's relatively the kids in the population correct", "right", "and staff", "just a little snapshot of staff", "we have fourteen fulltime classroom teachers around nine other teachers which include foreign language our music pe actively the library is in there", "yes instructional aids and special education aids", "we have lumped together in one number", "do you want me to and they come out of the local budget or is that something the special ed i believe come from the special ed budget which is", "and the instructional assistants for the regular education classroom aids such as we have in our kindergarten classrooms for example that always come from the local budget", "yeah that's a good question", "okay", "and another little snapshot of who we are as a district", "okay now we want to", "oh another little photo", "we wanted to talk a little bit about the fairly hot off the press most recent necap which stands for the new england common assessment program results", "this is based on testing that was administered in the fall of two thousand and twelve which best assesses progress from the twenty million one hundred and twelve thousand and twelve school year", "and you can see that we are", "jericho elementary continues to score significantly above the state averages in math reading and science", "this is data for third and fourth graders but because that's the first year that we administer necaps", "oh the bullets are gonna come up one by one", "susan yes", "in the report there's more segmented discussion about subgroups yes", "and the results on the necaps i know i thought that would be too hard to read as a slide", "so i didn't put it all in there but it is in the report", "yeah question", "yeah", "it seems to be a significant gender differentiation", "and the fact that", "susan would you repeat the question he's not on a microphone", "yeah jesse was just mentioning that", "jesse what page is that what page on page sixty", "on page sixty there's a more explicit breakdown of the necap scores disaggregated by some of the sub groups including gender and disability status and economic status", "and jesse was pointing out that he's noticing some discrepancies between female scores and scores of our boys", "i'm gonna turf that one to vicky do you wanna do you wanna take a stab is that something that we see sort of nationwide or what can we do about this i mean we recognize that somebody's gotta be", "i don't know we did expect to see consistent results", "just introduce yourself", "yes i'm vickie the building principal", "so it's something that we're beginning to see", "used to be that you would see their scores better than females scores", "so the trend's changing the female scores being better than male scores", "we had this question from the floor last year", "and so what we did is we looked at it over time", "this is a small snapshot so we kind of walked it out over time to see what we looked like not k4 but k8", "and we seem to level out though the girls tend to continue to be", "the gap narrows but girls tend to be doing a little bit better across time as well as across grade levels", "sort of another factor within this that we saw as a subgroup is the number of students that you have", "sort of what crossreferences you have male and female but then you have your disability category within that", "so you might be male disabled or you might be female disabled", "so we saw some pieces of the year that kind of", "so was it gender was it disability and the number of children who were boys who were disabled so there was a", "it's a piece of data that we started looking at more closely really based on the kind of the conversation that happened last year", "i tend to think of", "when i look at my sub scores i tend to look at ses and i tend to look at disability", "i hadn't looked closely at gender until last year kind of thinking more about that", "so typically when i look at my scores the place that worries me is low ses", "across the board that seems to be the place where there's a gap that i'm most worried about but certainly sort of this data and the data that i've looked at in the past year can we be much more wondering about that sort of looking at", "and i think some of the work around common core", "so if you look at that reading score there's gonna be a huge increase in looking at informational texts versus nonfiction versus fiction text and really increasing that number", "boys tend to like nonfiction texts more", "so as you look at common core standards there'll be a real sort of increase in the number of that amount of text children are supposed to be reading which is sort of a change for elementary education certainly middle school or high school education that's the focus", "and we're really looking at that at the elementary level", "so i'm thinking that a number of the things that are gonna happen within common core will kind of address those issues", "does anyone else have any questions about the necap data before i move on move closer to the mic please", "in looking at the malefemale discrepancy which was to me i wonder if you could also include in your information gathering children who are living with a male parent or a female parent for both parents", "and if that", "if the presence or absence of a male parent makes any difference that you have to gather data over time but i would encourage you to do that", "lizzie", "i wanna ditto what she just said", "i don't think that's too wacky", "and in fact i would say that with the fall of nasa star trek star wars kinds of stuff", "kids aren't", "you've gotta get them excited about science", "they've gotta have a kind of a math and science club feeling", "we've gotta get excited about it", "perhaps somebody can come in and help with school with robotics and get the kids excited about these things to help some of the boys who are excited and think of themselves as men of science", "so indeed this past school year", "this current school year we have a science in residence program that our enrichment teacher and one of our parents has organized to kind of", "we basically invite scientists real practicing scientists who come in and tell us what it is to be a scientist and what you get to do", "and we've had a geologists come in we've had a physicist come in and it's really been exciting", "we've had a person who studies wildlife biology", "so that's really neat", "it's like a celebrity comes to school and that celebrity is a scientist so it's been pretty exciting", "and i think those things are a piece of the work sorry", "the other case sorry and get out of the way", "the other case would be really looking at that science and what science inquiry means and really looking at our science units to increase inquiry", "if you look at our", "we're working on that obviously increased the most exciting part of science", "if you look at our current science curriculum it's strong inquiry you'll see a strong inquiry unit", "in first grade second grade we really were changing those units to make them stronger inquiry based units", "and then again looking at third grade as a strong inquiry base and then trying to improve that within fourth grade", "so we really saw some places where children take that science test only once in our school they take at the spring of fourth grade", "so some of the strongest inquiry work was in first and third grade", "so really looking to move that across time", "so you will see kids who get to have that experience more often", "so more inquiry experience and understanding the rigor around that that you sort of the rigor around sciences", "it's not just an experiment that you really have to know how to collect and analyze and use data", "so that science inquiry task that they have to do is pretty rigorous around those kind of pieces", "and we've been also thinking about some work", "our first grade teachers are combining their data unit and mathematics with their science unit", "so really to kind of say that this is connected sort of trying to show those connections", "so i think we are beginning to address it", "what's happening nationwide is we're gonna have the next generation science standards coming in", "so if you watch the new common core and reading and writing and mathematics and sort of next on the plate is a science so we're kind of preparing for that", "so ongoing work which is critical i agree", "okay let's move on to the budget", "those of you who attend to every year i'm sure that you now understand all the ins and outs of how the budget relates for your property taxes but in case there's anyone new or anyone who takes a long time to finally get it like myself", "i'm gonna go over this cause i think that's really important to understand and it is fairly complex way that this works here for us in vermont", "so yeah that would be helpful", "let's just", "yeah there should be a little bit more there we go", "so property tax rates are based on education spending per equalized pupil", "and you can see where they asterisks what an equalized pupil actually is how we're defining an equalized pupil", "stop me at anytime if you have questions", "districts which have have the same education spending per equalized pupil will have the same equalized property tax rate", "with me so far okay", "pending legislative approval the statewide homestead tax rate is going to be ninety two cents", "something we have no control over", "and the base education amount also does fine", "which is also defined by the legislature of eight thousand nine hundred and fifteen", "i think it's really important to emphasize that that is a number that is not intended and was never intended to be a recommended per pupil expenditure", "it's a number that is used for calculating the tax rate current symbol", "okay", "so if the education spending per equalized pupil is equal to the base education amount then the tax rate will be ninety two cents", "spending more than the base education amount per equalized pupil will increase the tax rate", "okay", "now just a little caveat here", "but at act one hundred and thirty just to point out that the town", "jericho town school district could place its own tax rate and the mmu school district also pay for its own tax rate", "and then the two tax rates are prorated by the number of equalized pupils in each district and added together", "so we end up with one overall tax rate", "so based on this proposed budget our education spending per equalized pupil at the elementary level is fourteen thousand seven hundred and eighty six which is six thousand five hundred and eighty six more than the base ed base education amount", "and so then you could see what that will do to the tax rate which is increase it by six thousand five hundred and eighty six and leave us with a tax rate of one hundred and fifty three", "that then gets prorated by the number of elementary school aged equalized pupil in jericho or i'm sorry by the percentage of pupils which aren't elementary pupils", "and we end up with our prorated homestead tax rate dumped it all", "okay", "questions so far i'm rob allen", "you started your presentation with the fact that the number of students is going up last year to this year by a considerable jump", "does that mean that the number of actual students this year will be higher than the number of equalized students because of the twoyear averaging so we through our spending per pupil is artificially high because our enrollment's going up yearoveryear well yes to the first part of the question", "and vicky did you wanna say something about that oh bob fanie", "hi i'm bob fanie a business manager for chittenden east", "and if there is a lag with the equalized pupil because of the average", "so you could have a the weighted daily average", "it's a two year average daily membership and there's some weighting factors that are incorporated in the calculation", "so you can see differences", "the directions could be different until there's a catchup if there's a sharp change in the number of students in a particular district", "it's that answer yes yes", "yes yes", "so till next year", "okay so", "yep", "oh let me talk to austin", "i did a question about how is the percentage of elementary students calculate it is that something like k through four versus five through twelve in jericho yeah", "k through four we are defining elementary pupils as students who would attend jericho elementary school", "so that's k through four only", "fifth through 12th grade is part of the mmu school district for our purposes", "okay so the common level appraisal", "i'm not gonna go through all of this", "you can read it ask me if you have questions", "basically right now jericho cla is so close to one hundred that it is not going to change your tax rate for this", "it's in the 10th of a cent range the change the tax rate and then it ended up rounding back to the forty seven cents", "so that simplifies that for this year at least", "so this sort of this chart shows how the elementary portion elementary home portion that homestead tax rate combines with the mt vans fields portion for students in grades five through twelve to get our overall tax rate", "and just a little bit about income sensitivity if we could just go to that next slide", "just like to point out that there is adjustment for income sensitivity", "so you can see that up through an income of ninety thousand there is some adjustment in a downward fashion of what you have to pay what you would have to pay", "i believe that caps out at ninety thousand household income about two thousand", "the last year this slide will have to be up here because act eighty two was phasing out", "but basically act eighty two limited the amount of increased spending that school boards could", "school districts can propose", "well we can propose anything we wanted but at over a certain cap there would have to be a complicated two vote sort of situation which fortunately for us we are not in this year", "so we were able to come in under the maximum increase allowed", "this might be a little hard to see", "this is also on page sixty six was sort of summary of the budget", "and what i tried to do with this chart was just include the line items that have gone up or gone down with a couple of exceptions that snuck in into my chart that have gone up and down by four or more", "so that you could see really what's driving the budget this year", "and what is driving the budget our increases in teacher salaries by the negotiated settlement", "so that's sort of a given health significant prehealthcare premium increases", "a very large increase one thousand three hundred and eighty one increase in our jericho's portion of the special education assessment", "right", "yeah because what was the question we pay based on the number", "our total number of students", "we pay this", "they're asking about the special education assessment which vicky and i just talked about this", "why even though we have fewer students eligible for special ed currently this year why our special education costs are going up", "and a special education budget is calculated as a supervisory unionwide system that we are part of where each school is assessed a certain share of the special ed total cost based on how many students we have", "so that based on in the district", "so we have two hundred and thirty odd students", "so our share of the special education assessment is", "or the special ed budget", "what we're assessed is based on that number of students", "smaller elementary schools pay a smaller share bigger schools pay a bigger share because the predictability of need from yeartoyear it's unpredictable", "so right now we may be paying more than we're actually using", "other years we may be kind of getting a good deal basically", "it would not be feasible for us to set that budget in a way that", "it's just the amount of the special ed need is unpredictable", "so we can't just have a flat number from year to year", "does that make sense it's marsha morel", "i'm just wondering where is the cost per special ed service or whatever", "i mean where that is either going up or down", "i mean i hear our assessment's going up and i base that my assumption is on our enrollment is going up so we have more kids", "but where do we affect that budget that total amount spent so that as our percent goes up or stays the same we can make some kind of decisions on that number", "finished up my question", "yeah i think so", "i mean one thing i can say to speak to that is that i mean need in general for special ed services is going up", "so we're needing more special educators", "we have more kids who are eligible for special ed services and we're obligated to provide appropriate education for every student regardless of need", "so if as a district as a supervisory union we have more special education eligible students", "we're going to have the budget is going to go up", "and i think that just the general trend not this year in this school but the general trend is that more kids are being identified as in need of special ed services", "so that's one sort of a general statement", "the special ed budget is approved on a supervisory union level", "so that's the central office", "it's part of this it's a central office", "so i'm not really sure how we affect that as an individual board unless we decide that we're not gonna participate at all or that we're gonna somehow decide as an elementary school that we want to contract out or pay for our own special ed services", "but that's a big risk", "because if we have one student come in next week who we weren't budgeted for that could entail another expense in the tens of thousands of dollars that wasn't budgeted for", "and because students go in and out with not a lot of predictability this is kind of a way that we assure that we are able to afford to provide the special ed services for any student who might need them", "and kids will be identified sometimes in the middle of the school year", "we didn't know johny was gonna need a oneonone aid but now he does", "does that answer your question or not really what i'm really trying to figure out is where do we figure out how much", "are the cost of individually going up after", "you can choose the number of ways to provide", "yeah", "that's fine", "it could be going up", "i'm sorry i'll address the question", "this special education budget is prepared by the special education director", "she's an employee of the supervisory union", "each student need is evaluated and then determine what services are appropriate for that student", "once all this information is gathered it is sent to the state and they'll review for appropriateness", "the individual a plan that is prepared for each special education student", "so that's really where we have a first step of checking to make sure that the budget is appropriate and then the money is being spent properly", "if things happen during the course of the year then we'll have to spend more than we budgeted", "we end up doing the first cut of this draft budget almost a year ahead of time", "it's really hard to predict what's gonna happen to put into the budget", "we have to spend the money", "it's by statute", "we have to provide the services for the special education students", "and we track the expenditures during the course of the year if there's any adjustments that can be made that takes place", "what we're seeing lately is increased number of students and also increased need for each student so that they're meeting more oneonone services", "and of course that's gonna drive up cost", "so that's what has been happening", "i also just would like to point out that one decision that the jericho school board did make was to decrease our funding of our contingency fund by ten thousand this year in order to try to offset some of the increases over which we have very little control so that we could hold down the bottom line to a relatively smaller increase than we would have had if we had continued to fund the contingency at the level to which we would like to in different economic circumstances", "and we're also saving a little bit of money as our debt gets paid off", "so that's helpful", "okay", "i guess sort of moving out of the budget section here except to show you our estimates for class size by grade level for next school year", "so you can see it that sort of in the lower", "in the earlier grades we have some higher numbers which is good", "and some of the smaller classes we'll be phasing out and moving on to middle school", "that is not per teacher", "no i'm sorry", "yeah that's not per teacher", "that's the total grade", "that's the total grade yeah", "i should probably change the title of that slide", "that's a little confusing yes", "right grade size", "grade sizes yeah yeah", "each grade level has three teachers with the exception of fourth grade which has two", "so you can do the math that math but", "okay", "and just briefly the things to kind of keep in mind for future annual school meetings", "our capital plan a significant amount of work was done this past year on the heating and ventilating system of the school", "so we have a much much better more functional hvac system", "and we also have both two relatively new roofs", "so we're feeling good about some of the infrastructure expenditures that we've made in the last few years", "and our capital plan is going through a major overhaul and update this year", "we tend to do that every three to five years and this year it's being looked at", "and with the help of our facilities coordinator who is employed halftime by the supervisory union that's a new position this year", "and he's helping vicky and lucian lop here head custodian look at the plan and look at", "and just to be aware of what we'll be needing to keep in mind for the future with regard to our building", "hi yeah", "well ben jocelyn", "there's a pretty substantial crack in that top court of this particular trust", "right between the bolts there's crack running all the way from the wall all the way across the roof it looks like", "any information on that i was not aware vicky were you lucia no but certainly this roof has been redone and repaired within", "this were our first roofs we did three years ago", "so everything was structurally looked at at that point in time", "so some of what you see underneath here if you go into one of our first grade rooms there's bolts hanging out of the wall they're no longer sort of", "they're no longer functional that what the roof did", "so we basically rebuilt a roof over at this place where we sort of rechanged our slope rebuild the roof", "so in terms of structural we're in good shape on this wingless fifty seven eighty", "this wing has been redone", "so the roof that really probably was originally", "so when they looked at the roof we started", "we went in from the top down rather than", "we went in from above and fixed things", "there was a flat roof over here that they rebuilt", "and so all the work within from the top", "so your roof and your structure right here is in good shape but we're not having any leaks or any problems anywhere in the roofs now at this point", "the only other sort of leaks moisture you have were when we replaced the heating system we were getting pinhole leaks in our heating system as well", "so we really are seeing a redecreasing those kind of leaks", "so you don't need to worry about our roofs", "we're in great shape mr", "we think in our lifetime we're not gonna have to worry about either roof that's our plan", "okay we love our new roofs especially our 50year standing seam metal roof", "that was just put on last summer", "and prek if you've been following the national news at all you might have heard president obama speak to universal prek in his state of the union address", "there've been a few recent articles in national publications in the last couple of weeks that i've seen with some pretty highlevel policy makers talking about the importance of a universal prekindergarten available to all fouryear olds nationwide", "and we are as a board philosophically very very much in supportive prek", "we did not feel this year that it was something that was physically sort of doable in the current budget climate or in the context of the budget that we're working with", "but it is something that on the state level is being talked about a great deal", "and we're really looking toward the legislature to see what happens possibly even in this session with regard to prek", "so i think it's a question that probably will be coming up before us as a school board and as school board", "school voters in the next couple of years", "so something to think about", "okay thank you", "and please let us know what other questions you might have or comments", "on anything i said or anything i didn't say", "hi i'm tom joslin", "i noticed the health insurance is going up nearly twenty three", "i was wondering how much of that reflects insurance premium rates and how much of that is a change in the composition of enrollees in the the health plan i might have to defer to bob on this but i believe that most of it is premiums going up", "i don't have the actual breakdown between the two but there are healthcare coverage changes within that figure", "and there is a fourteen premium increase included in the budget but i don't have this with", "jesse belvin", "the board of directors report mentions i assume the retirement of mr driscoll and mrs johnson", "yes", "and the addition of karen reinhardt as the mathematics coach", "and the teacher's salaries which sounds to me like the reduction of at least one fulltime equivalent and yet line one hundred and ten has an increase in teacher salary", "so i assume that there've been replacements hired or something for the classroom teachers", "well yes", "we're down one classroom teacher but that position was replaced for the fulltime mathscience coach", "so our total number of teachers is the same", "and the reason the reason there was an increase is because we have negotiated settlement which gives teachers a salary increase every year", "other questions hi", "hi i'm just wondering how many fulltime teachers teach and that composed the one million eighty eight thousand", "one million looking at line one hundred and ten okay", "jericho school district it was in the report", "oh yes", "actually it's one million eighty eight thousand eight hundred and forty four", "okay so you mentioned can we go back to that slide", "you know yeah because it's not just class", "that's not just classroom teachers that are in that set in that number", "okay", "just have to look at my", "just don't wanna misquote you here", "so we have fourteen classroom teachers and ninety two fulltime equivalent other teachers", "does that include aids that does not include aids", "okay so there's ninety two aids is separate line item", "they're in the classroom with the teacher but they're not actually teaching right right but in terms of the numbers", "what's represented in teacher salaries is classroom teachers but also", "so when i have my classroom teacher i mean a first grade teacher or a third grade teacher a second grade teacher other teachers the art teacher the music teacher the pe teacher the foreign language teacher the mathscience coach", "those are all also lumped into the bat line item for teacher salaries", "aids are a separate line item but they are paraprofessionals that are in the classroom either as a general education aid social support classroom teacher right", "or as a special education aid which has a separate within that line item", "okay", "in the million dollar one hundred and eighty eight", "for the first one in that line one hundred and ten", "okay okay", "i'm just trying to determine on my own self and the negotiated salary increases", "yes", "are they voted on by the taxpayers they are", "well by proxy", "i mean they're probably voted on by you vote for your school board members and your school board", "each school board in the supervisory union sends representatives to each school board has to vote on the negotiated settlement", "the settlement is the teacher negotiation", "so in salary negotiations happens on supervisory union level", "so jericho's teachers have the same contract as underhill teachers as huntington teachers as bolton teachers as mmu grounds teachers", "so that happens on the supervisory union level", "and each school board sends a representative to the negotiations committee and ultimately any contract is voted on by all the school boards has to be approved by all of the boards in order to fly", "so is it a forum where taxpayers can actually discuss this with the school board yeah and every school board meeting is open to the public right", "and we do welcome how much was last year's increase the last time that it was approved", "how much was the increase the current contract the new latest contract", "bob do you know that for teachers it's three average increase", "but that doesn't include and that's a oneyear contract", "that's a oneyear contract that will be voted on again it'll come up and it'll be renegotiated again yeah", "so that was well what we have is a oneyear contract right now", "are there health care", "just out of curiosity are the eighteen rise in healthcare that's in this budget is it also negotiated at that point or is that some school board not negotiate that well i mean it is", "i mean it is in a way although some of that comes from", "i mean some of that is not in our control comes from state the vermont", "what is it the school board insurance trust", "so some of our costs in terms of the health care that's not something that we can vote on", "but they're not capped though", "there's no cap on those expenses", "those could go up to twenty", "and the school board would not", "that's not something that the school board limit", "i mean when they negotiate with this", "when those rates go up are they capped in any way are those expenses capped in any way or is it just something that you have to pay i don't really know the answer to that question", "can we get you a mic please try and see if that works", "is it on yep", "rate of increase on the healthcare premium is fourteen", "and that's pretty much a number that we receive from our healthcare carrier", "i guess what can limit the amount of the increase is how much the employee can contribute towards that healthcare cost", "and that does get negotiated within the contract", "so that would probably be the only thing that would limit how much the increase could go up", "i guess that's about it", "that would be the only item that i'm aware of", "i wish we had more control over it", "but unfortunately the cost just seemed to keep going up", "so this is your chance to ask anything about the budget and we are near the end of the discussion i believe", "anything else all right so i'll draw your attention to the action on the floor or on article three which is the budget article", "devote a budget of three million seven hundred and ninety eight thousand five hundred and ninety eight to meet the expenses and liabilities of the town school district", "are you ready to vote on the budget as presented all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "oppose nay nay", "abstain abstain", "the budget has passed", "article four is to transact any other business thought", "this is your chance to bring up anything that is relevant to the affairs of the district", "jesse pelton just a matter of curiosity i guess about two things", "i'm wondering how having mansfield academy in the building is working out for all students", "and i'd like to request my annual report on safe routes", "oh i can answer both of those but i'll let becky", "well you can", "i mean it seems more appropriate for you to speak to that both of those things", "so having mansfield academy as part of our school has been a wonderful easy transition", "i think it's really worked well and their locations seems to work wonderfully for them and they relate", "they just feel like part of our community and at the same time really are protected and have the supports they need in order to feel not be in the general population an any more so that they are comfortable", "so i think it's been wonderful better than we could expect", "becky could you just explain what the mansfield academy is so mansfield academy is district alternative program for elementary", "there's a program for kindergarten through grade twelve", "we have the elementary portion of that program kindergarteners for fourth graders", "so it's really children with some emotional socialemotional difficulties who really need an alternative setting", "so we have children", "we just have children from different elementary schools within the district who are housed here in this it's gone very well", "and then with safe routes to school we knew that question was coming", "friday", "if people know we've got a large infrastructure grant from san francisco that we were hoping that you would see a wonderful new front of our building this school year", "but because of hurricane issues our proposal sat at", "so we couldn't go out to bid for last summer", "we looked like we have bid ready documents as of the end of this week", "and hopefully we'll be going out to bid within the next few weeks for a summer project", "so you will see what that will do is really provide an easier entrance for walkers and bike riders to our school", "when jes was built it was a school for time to go home", "the school was built for a really up commuter traffic and really trying to improve that", "so you will see traffic calming in the front dropping off and picking up the kids by car looking different and also ways for kids to come in from the back of the building and be able to know like where do you go if you come from one of our paths you kind of go like how do i get into this school so barring looks like everything's in place", "they have to do a little bit more in terms of looking at drainage or those kinds of things and we'll be going out to bid", "so this time next year you'll see the second infrastructure grant", "we originally got original grant and was connected to streetscapes which extended our sidewalks beyond the streetscape project so that kids could walk safely to school", "anything else proper well done go ahead", "help yourself", "yep", "has anyone considered that you have a walking school bus it's been tried in some other communities", "basically a walking school buses instead of having the adult supervisor being the school bus driver with the kids inside the school bus that either in certain times a year or within certain close distances of the school that there would be a responsible adult shepherding the kids to school by walking would that be a way of sort of encouraging people to school in a more supervised in a little bit safer manner i mean if we're talking about these sorts of things is that something that has been considered yes", "would you like to come walk with us we walk in", "we do a walk during international walk to school day", "we have had times of more often and less frequent and less frequent walking school buses", "we certainly do and we gather in the neighborhoods and walk into school and celebrate that", "so with that we need volunteers from once the weather gets better and also really", "part of our cases we have a safe routes to school plan and that we've written in part of those things in order to kind of take the next level the next step", "really we needed to create", "improve some of our infrastructure to make it safer for kids", "and that's kinda what we've been waiting for", "we're at some level of a platinum member or one of those things to safe routes to school", "so the events we do we're renowned for what we do around bike safety through our phys ed program now", "and that's really our phys ed teacher has taken that on and has done an outstanding job with that and we recognized for that", "so indeed encouraging walking to school is something walking to school", "and because many of our kids ride buses during those events we're encouraging walking to school we also encourage walking at school to kind of think about once you get to school and doing walking", "so walking bike riding and really having a safe place so that when you enter this", "when you come from route fifteen there's an easy way to get to the front door by sidewalk to make that", "so it's just easier for families to be able to do that", "so yes come walk with us", "we'd love to have you", "okay what else it's all in your mind", "okay hearing nothing or seeing no sign i'm gonna suggest that somebody move to adjourn", "paul gross and a second", "jesse so there's no objection the meeting has come to a close", "thank you all for coming", "it's a nice turnout for the school meeting"], "name": ["Jericho_Town_Meeting_2013_-_School_District_Meeting/Jericho_Town_Meeting_2013_-_School_District_Meeting/Jericho_Town_Meeting_2013_-_School_District_Meeting_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "LaPaz1943.flac", "identifier": "LaPaz1943", "text_document_id": "LaPaz1943.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [10602, 12185, 35535, 6674, 3550, 5303, 6595, 26960, 2793, 10383, 3510, 3873, 3653, 3363, 5603, 12537, 8040, 12320, 4085, 8580, 4760, 6929, 14653, 5833, 24250, 4266, 21870, 5000, 4362, 1980, 14125, 3290, 30483, 3310, 2830, 5058, 62268, 7683, 4806, 9779, 1570, 40100, 6593, 3633, 5784, 6080, 9723, 8318, 3410, 3090, 11461, 6643, 11801, 3149, 7882, 11165, 8893, 5333, 2710, 14227, 16007, 5190, 2403, 6450, 7783], "label": ["the traveler who crosses bolivia's high plateau toward its chief city la paz comes upon it suddenly picturesque bright colored a city in miniature", "here a quarter of a million people live in a modern community two and a half miles above sea level la paz is the highest big city in the world higher even than lasa in tibet", "thin cold air the people of la paz are well adjusted although living so high does make a difference even in people who were born to it the paseos as residents of la paz call themselves are likely to alternate between periods of nervousness and apathy and the foreigners who come from such sea level points as lima or new york or buenos aires find that the scarcity of oxygen converts climbing a flight of stairs into a major physical effort and walking up one of the steep streets becomes a herculean task", "no matter where one wants to go in la paz it always seems to be uphill going and uphill coming back", "there are many strange phenomena in life at this altitude", "there's so little oxygen that fires are difficult to start so no one carries fire insurance", "an automobile loses forty of its power and it takes six minutes to boil a three minute egg", "the heart of ol la paz is in the plaza maurilio where it is said that the first cry of rebellion against spanish rule arose in one thousand eight hundred and nine on the great squares the handsome cathedral one of the largest in the world where twelve thousand people may worship together around this plaza are the principle government buildings where in la paz are the executive and legislative branches of the government", "the supreme court however meets in sucra", "the indians of this region from the high plateau above the city and the luxuriant yungas valleys beyond the mountains to the east are notoriously bad city dwellers", "they do however come into market on weekends", "then the city is alive with these strange and quiet people", "they are for the most part of the ancient aymara tribe", "long before the incas they were a powerful race", "they make their headquarters in the old ins whose courtyards become warehouses for their goods", "in the market they eat the hot and high smelling picante this may be a stew with meat potatoes and corn or roast meat served alone flavored with pepper and garlic", "here they bargain for little piles of pale green leaves called coca from which the drug cocaine is derived", "to these people who chew it like tobacco it is an opiate to help them to endure the bitter cold and the hard labor but the habitual use of coca dulls the intellect", "so that enlightened bolivians are now trying to stamp out the practice", "but even more characteristic of the la paz scene than the indians are the cholos people of mixed spanish and indian blood", "they comprise about twenty five of bolivia's population", "adaptable colorful and intelligent they grow daily more important in bolivian national rights", "sometimes parading on a saint's day on a cloud of confetti and incense more often gliding along under loads that would stagger a husky north american at this altitude they are as omnipresent as the cobblestones of the street", "their great festival of the year is a la cetus modernized remnant of an ancient indian custom", "here the cholos and indians come from many parts of bolivia bringing their own handicrafts to sell the real star of the festival is the akeko a tiny plaster mannequin a good fairy of prosperity an ancient legend or the people believe that if they purchased at the fair miniature reproductions of things they want during the year", "and if they hang them around the akeko their wishes will be granted", "tiny bags of rice and coca new shoes wedding rings toy horses trucks and gaudy new apartment houses all surround the akeko and the jolly little god and all his fine wares will stand guard in the household of his purchaser until he makes all the dreams come true", "or at least until the fair of a la cetus returns next year", "a la cetus brings out the chola of la pies in her full glory", "they never costume in person", "she may spend a month income on a pair of earrings she is still a practical business woman a hardheaded shopkeeper she is an extravagantly loving mother a chola without a baby on her back is hardly a complete chola", "humorous quixotic sharp tongue", "the chola is unique and knows it during the three days of a la cetus troops of dancers and musicians dance down the narrow cobbled ways into the patios to play their strange toons and to perform their gay dance", "whirling in her bright shawl and dozen petticoats", "the inevitable derby set at a jaunty angle", "the chola is a gay and provocative figure unlike any other in the world", "but all of la paz is not markets and fairs and dancing for the city of peace is full of colonial tradition founded in one thousand five hundred and forty eight by a lieutenant of pedro dayla gasca it is laden with all the architectural glories which grace the early capital spanish stonework by indian artists tends to perpetuate indian forms and the heads of ancient gods looms strangely on these christian columns even here the chola reappears this time in another guy as a nurse to a newly christened child the chola nurses to many la paz families what the negro mammy was in the southern homes of the united states and many a child of spanish speaking parents grows up speaking fluent aymara", "also belonging to antiquity is this strangely beautiful cemetery where the dead are placed in tombs high above the ground", "in a new part of the city is the national stadium seating sixty thousand people", "bolivians in common with virtually all other south americans are lovers of soccer which they play far harder and better than would seem possible at this altitude", "imagine yourself doing this", "for example on top of pike's peak smart la paz loves the movies", "this is one city in which argentine and mexican made films are almost as frequent as those from north america", "most fashionable is the vermouth or six o'clock show on sunday evening", "this is one hour in the week when you can be fairly sure of seeing la paz out in its best bib and tucker", "there is still another la paz not picturesque but important for the city's future", "the bolivians have great ambition for the industrialization of their country and factories like this are becoming focal point in economic expansion", "they have an almost childlike love of intricate machinery and they also have sufficient good and inexpensive manpower to run it", "but there are obstacles to industrial expansion here", "there's little fuel for plant operation", "most serious of all every piece of machinery in this wool factory had to make the long sea trip from europe or north america and the expensive rail trip up from the pacific coast", "in spite of these obstacles industrialization and construction are going ahead in this new realistic la paz", "this fantasy tins project of tearing down a hill as the purely practical end in view of constructing a highway to link la paz with its eastern suburb of mira flores", "in these projects cholos are the chief workman", "indians will occasionally join them for a few days but they are farmers at heart and prefer to work the soil", "in mira flores construction is in progress on a new workers housing project to replace the ancient adobe huts which it is the wish of every citizen of la paz to destroy", "and all over the city the adobes are coming down and new starkly modern buildings of reinforced concrete and brick are going up", "the silhouette of la paz is changing more rapidly than that of any other american capital today", "this reconstruction is a hard job", "there is no easy access to building material there's little wood and all iron and steel must be imported this adds to the cost and increases the difficulties of all construction but still they build", "bolivia looks to a time when a greater part of her national territory will become economically effective producing not only tin and other ore for which she is already famous but food clothing and building materials sufficient for her own needs", "la paz the center of modern bolivia is already the highest big city in the world", "it is growing in the face of tremendous odds", "and so there was some special virtue in this height as though it literally increased the stature of the city", "la paz has set it's heart on the idea and it's back to the job of living at least half a dozen stories higher"], "name": ["LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00005.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00006.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00007.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00008.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00009.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00010.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00011.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00012.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00013.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00014.flac", "LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943/LaPaz1943_DOT_flac_00015.flac", 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13420, 1250, 3167, 833, 18583, 11337, 1930, 1893, 6923, 7523, 2383, 6886, 1068, 5226, 5410, 3490, 1913, 8893, 10763, 36880, 6430, 1890, 2750, 1153, 2730, 20440, 2240, 5680, 16120, 7470, 2010, 4210, 5790, 5130, 4000, 9590, 26844, 10013, 4162, 24233, 5000, 3593, 6980, 10060, 1450, 13263, 2060, 2149, 1450, 3120, 2370, 12790, 8733, 2690, 8460, 14070, 1209], "label": ["as we move around try to see if we can do that", "see what its like", "good evening", "i'd like to welcome everyone here tonight to the marriage amendment forum", "i'm john brandt chair of the maplewood human rights commission and moderator of tonight's forum", "the forum is jointly sponsored by the human rights commissions of the city of maplewood and the city of roseville", "in the interest of minnesota open meeting laws human rights commissioners from the city of maplewood are present here this evening but we will not convene a commission meeting tonight and no business of the commission will be conducted", "we have four excellent speakers here this evening", "each are experts in their field", "are here tonight to share information and perspectives that we hope people will find useful in thinking through the pros and cons of the proposed marriage amendment", "before we hear from our first presenter we want to explain how this forum was developed provide some background on the marriage amendment and find out a little bit about who is in the audience this evening", "can i ask people to stand up if you are truly politically independent we're not asking anybody to define themselves as a republican or democrat", "yeah bob i think you've been outted", "and we're not going to ask anybody what their position is on the amendment or whether you're democrat or republican or conservative or liberal just if you are politically independent", "still standing please remain standing", "okay we got four people", "now second question among the people standing if you have pretty much decided how you were going to vote on the marriage amendment want you to sit back down", "okay thank you", "which leaves maybe two people maybe", "armando alright good job", "we got another recruit", "okay we've got a little experiment here and we're asking for two volunteers and we happen to have just two", "if you would go see maurice over here we've got a little experiment and you two folks are going to be part of our integrity response at the end of this presentation to give a little feedback on how we did with this event", "so if you'll see maurice you'll get it via a name tag and theresa will give you a handout so that you know what the four questions are that we're going to be talking about tonight", "and the questions for our integrity review panel are up on the screen", "i'll leave them up there for just a second", "so you can see them", "unfortunately i can't read them from here", "so if you can read them we'll also bring those up at the end of the forum", "when voters go to the polls on november 6th people will simply vote yes or no on the amendment questions", "but the commission believes that citizens of minnesota will vote yes or no for many different reasons", "many in the audience came here tonight with an opinion and not undoubtedly many are here this evening that have already decided how they're going to vote and many people are perhaps even passionate about the outcome", "so let's acknowledge that reasonable people see these issues very differently and that we all have a responsibility to be civil and respectful of our neighbors who have different viewpoints", "please listen and hear i'm sorry", "people listen and hear others better when discussions are more respectful than passionate", "to bring everybody up to speed on the current status of gay marriage i have a few slides and i'm gonna have to move down to the screen", "can people still hear me okay yes", "gay marriage is recognized in six states and washington dc states that currently recognize gay marriage include vermont new hampshire massachusetts connecticut new york and iowa", "civil unions are recognized in five states rhode island new jersey delaware illinois and hawaii", "gay marriage is currently not legal in thirty nine states", "in every state that has gay marriage it has been the result of a legislative initiative or court action", "in the thirty one times that it has been put to a popular vote gay marriage has been defeated in every state", "and incidentally it has been put to a popular vote or will be put to a popular vote more than once in some states", "this is a gallup poll from one thousand nine hundred and ninety six to two thousand and twelve", "and it helps to realize the direction that gay marriage is going in the united states", "in one thousand nine hundred and ninety six sixty eight of people polled by gallup's said that gay marriage should not be valid", "only twenty seven thought that they should be", "you can see as over the years that these have converged", "and for the first time in two thousand and eleven the gallup poll showed that there was a reversal in two thousand and eleven", "and that currently now i think this was in june of two thousand and twelve that it's very close fifty to forty eight", "in november two thousand and twelve gay marriage is on the ballot in four states", "in minnesota the ballot issue is to decide whether to ban gay marriage in minnesota in maryland and washington the ballot issue is a vote to wrap by legislation", "and in may if it passes it will be a vote to legalize gay marriage", "the polls indicate that each one of these ballot measures are very close in four states", "if it passes in any of these states it will be the first time that on ballot referendum supporting gay marriage has passed in the united states", "human rights commission announced over the summer that we would host two educational events on the proposed constitutional amendments one on voter identification and the other on the marriage amendment", "we chose two different formats for the town hall meetings", "and here's why there are basically two ways to provide a public event to learn more about important social issues", "one is the traditional debate format to have speakers for and against a proposal take polarized positions and present adversarial viewpoints", "the other is the familiar academic discussion essentially the traditional classroom that we are all familiar with from high school or college", "with the academic format speakers are invited for their knowledge in a particular area and asked to share information from their respective areas of expertise", "the two proposed amendments are both controversial but beyond that they are quite dissimilar", "the voter id amendment is inherently political", "so we chose a traditional debate format at the town hall meeting that we had at maplewood city hall two weeks ago", "the marriage amendment is different", "it reaches into the hearts minds and souls of many people in minnesota and politicizes very personal relationships between people", "while the voter id amendment has the potential to change how people vote in minnesota the marriage amendment has the potential to change how people live in minnesota", "for those that were expecting to hear a debate tonight between warring factions over gay marriage that is not the format", "the commission shows the less polarizing more civil and respectful academic format of an educational setting that all here tonight are well familiar with", "who should have the burden of responsibility to make the case for social change should it be those that propose a new constitutional amendment to maintain the status of traditional marriage or should it be those that are suggesting gay marriage should be recognized as a legitimate matter of civil rights the truth is we have difficulty we had difficulty finding experts to speak on either side of this issue", "the reasons actually are fairly obvious", "there are a lot of people on both sides of the marriage amendment that are long on opinions short on facts and loaded for bear", "our objective was to find four experts that have the education credentials knowledge and experience to bring highly credible information to the forum", "to that end the commission reached out to organizations on all sides of the marriage amendment and also to neutral organizations to find expert speakers", "we were dismayed that several pro amendment organizations declined our invitations", "the commission contacted organizers at minnesota for marriage seven times", "over the last three months we reached out to them three times by email and four times by phone", "we got no response by email and only one response by phone from a organization leader who told me that minnesota for marriage would not participate in our event if there were people speaking against the amendment", "at one point we had to decide if we were going to cancel the event or hold the event as planned with experts that could speak knowledgeably to the controversies around the marriage amendment", "we decided not to cancel the event incidentally our efforts to find speakers to provide a more balanced forum this evening will be a topic of discussion at the next human rights commission meeting on november 13th at seven hundred pm at city hall", "we welcome your participation", "so in the interest of integrity it's important to note that our speakers here this evening are not without bias", "all have studied the issues around gay marriage", "for many years before this proposed marriage amendment", "each has written or spoken publicly about issues surrounding gay marriage", "all four speakers are experts in their respective fields but in the interest of disclosure three of the four speakers have spoken or written publicly about why they believe the marriage amendment would not be good public policy", "but all our presenters here tonight were invited to speak to not just one side of these complex issues but rather to all sides of the many competing values principles and issues related to marriage families and children in minnesota", "they are here tonight not to speak to their conclusions but rather to share some of the facts research information experience and perspectives that we hope will lead those in the audience to their own conclusions", "we are expecting all of our speakers to be long on facts and short on opinions", "we hope every member of the audience here this evening will listen critically to the information that speakers will share with you", "and you will be the judge as to whether the information presented leads you to vote yes or vote no on the amendment", "at the end of the at the end of the forum we will ask our review panel members to indicate whether they think we met our objectives this evening for educational integrity", "let me say briefly why this amendment matters to so many people", "if it passes gay marriage in minnesota will be unconstitutional", "pass or fail it will affect a lot of people in minnesota", "and let me tell you why the outcome may not decide the future of marriage in minnesota", "on november 7th the morning after the election day the sun will rise as it always has regardless of the outcome of the marriage amendment gay marriage in minnesota will still be illegal", "and there's another important reason why the outcome might be shortlived", "this issue is already in the federal courts and may end up being decided by the supreme court", "our law professor here this evening mark ostler will speak to these issues in just a minute", "so with all this in mind i'd like to share with you one of my favorite quotes everything is either going to get better or it's going to get worse", "so we are either worrying about nothing or we are worrying too soon", "here's the format for our speakers tonight", "each speaker will have about fifteen minutes to present their information", "we will have time for questions after each speaker", "and we believe that by allowing questions from the audience to challenge our panel by respectfully raising good questions we can maintain both integrity and civility", "we will take a break halfway through the forum", "after the break we will hear from our last two speakers get some feedback from our review panel and we'll leave time at the end for refreshments", "i'd like to introduce excuse me all of our our speakers this evening", "and i'll ask you to hold your applause until i've introduced all four speakers", "our first speaker will be professor mark ostler", "mark ostler is a professor of law at the university of st thomas in minneapolis a graduate of the college of william and mary and yale law school", "his work frequently strikes at the intersection of law and faith", "he currently is the head of the association of religiously affiliated law schools", "in two thousand and nine mr ostler published a book titled jesus on death row challenging the death penalty based on the experience of christ as a criminal defendant", "he writes regularly on religion and law for the huffington post and has been interviewed as an expert on sentencing and related issues on cnn", "npr is morning edition and abc's good morning america", "he's been sourced in hundreds of newspapers", "in two thousand and nine mr ostler was the lead counsel on a case before the us supreme court on the winning side of a supreme court decision regarding federal sentencing guidelines", "his work on one case is portrayed in the samuel goldwyn film american violet", "dr laura boysen is a professor at augsburg college", "she earned her doctorate degree from the university of minnesota", "since one thousand nine hundred and ninety six she has been teaching and doing research at augsburg college in the department of social work", "in the 1990's she was a researcher in the center for advanced studies in child welfare", "she has recently been doing research on the meaning of marriage with gay couples and how children are affected by being raised in gay or lesbian households", "annekaner roth is the executive director of project five hundred and fifteen", "she earned an msw in public policy from boston university", "she's on the national board of directors of the equality federation", "in two thousand and six and seven she was the university of minnesota humphrey institute as a policy fellow", "she lives in minneapolis with her husband mark and three children", "reverend grant stevenson has been a pastor for twenty years", "and besides minnesota has ministered in wisconsin taiwan and new guinea", "he is currently a pastor at st matthew's lutheran church in st paul and the faith director for minnesota united for all families", "reverend stevenson and his wife karen have five sons", "would you please give a welcome to our panel", "and with that i will turn it over to our first presenter professor mark ostler", "well it's a pleasure to be here", "the first thing i should probably make very clear is that i'm from the university of st thomas but i don't represent the official views of the university of st thomas", "i really really don't", "if you if you followed the discussion there", "i am really fortunate though to work in a place where there's a diversity of viewpoints", "this is an issue and i'm going to talk about the legal perspective as well as my own personal perspective", "i can't really separate the two since i'm an attorney but i think there's principal positions on both sides of this debate", "about a year ago i wrote a piece for the star tribune about the coming controversy on this", "and talk to my the person in the office next to me is teresa colette who is one of the leading speakers on the other side who's a friend of mine and a colleague and someone whose opinion i respect", "and i talked to her about that i was going to start writing about this", "and one of the things that i told her that i'm going to tell you right now as my starting point is what i think is the best argument on the other side", "and it's not legal at all", "it's a simple story of a few moments that some of you have experienced i think and it's this i'm a father", "i have three children my wife and i have put those children at the center of our lives as some of you have with your own children", "when they were babies there was something that happened with those babies and us", "and it was this that when i was holding one of the boys all three of them are boys", "i was swinging them around and pretending that they were falling and catching them and tossing them up in the air", "and then when my wife took them she didn't do that", "she held them close wrapped her arms around them kept them still and calm", "and there's something very deep in that that men and women are different in certain ways", "now is it socially constructed is it something that is within our nature i don't know", "and i can't say i know exactly what that is but there is something probably to having one person there who is tossing the baby around and the other person whose instinct is to hold that baby close and still", "so why is it that i'm against this amendment and why am i against it so much that i have been fairly outspoken it's because there's several parts of me that have overwhelmed that instinct that i can't quite describe fully", "one of them is legal", "and i'm going to talk about the legal aspect of it in a couple of ways", "first of all the law already prohibits gay marriage in minnesota", "there's a statute that defines marriage as being between one man and one woman", "so this isn't going to change the law in any way", "what it's going to amend is the constitution and the constitution is fundamentally different than a law than a statute", "a law and i you know i'm a prosecutor at heart", "i was a federal prosecutor in detroit before i started teaching", "and you know if you want to do serious law enforcement detroit's the place to go", "it was it was fascinating but it was all about law", "and the thing about law about statute civil or criminal is it restricts freedom it tells you what you can't do", "you can't go and take that money if it's not yours you can't hit that guy in the bar", "it's a set of rules that restricts freedom", "now as a society we think that's an acceptable restriction on freedom", "in civil law there are some things that within the law if somebody does it to you they can sue you", "they can enforce a contract if you sign that contract", "it limits your freedom to walk away from the contract", "that's what law and statutes do", "but one of the geniuses of the framers of the constitution is that the constitution is different", "and what was revolutionary in that time is that it gave freedom to individuals as against their government", "you know there was an idea that that goes deep into british history but it came to full fruition in the constitution", "we talk about what's amazingly new about that document about why other countries look to it for guidance is because it does something beyond restrict freedom like laws do", "it's not a law in a way it's the opposite of a law", "it's what stops the government from restricting our freedoms and it does it in a few ways", "alexander hamilton wrote very eloquently about this in the federalist papers", "and one of the things that he expresses over and over is that you have to have divided government", "but beyond that jefferson in particularly madison in writing the bill of rights the first amendments to the constitution expressly gave individual rights to people protected them from their government because they didn't trust government to intrude on the most personal aspects of a person's life", "it was something new and different and wonderful", "and since that time with one exception in the federal law as we've amended the constitution we've been very careful not to use the constitution to restrict freedoms because that's the opposite of its true purpose which is to protect individual freedoms versus a government whose instinct is to limit them and to take from us our money and our freedom", "that one exception of course was prohibition", "that didn't turn out very well", "now in the case of minnesota minnesota's constitution in many ways replicates the federal constitution", "in fact it includes most of the bill of rights in its text", "it does the same thing as the federal constitution and that was intentional", "it protects individual freedoms", "it doesn't take them away", "in the amendments and you know there's a website you can go to and pull up all the amendments to the minnesota constitution", "and i did this and i read them all and there's a lot of them but what's fascinating about them is they do three things", "one of them one of those things is that it affects the structure of government", "you know that this department's going to report to this person things like that", "the second thing that it does is talk about budgetary issues about the way that money can be raised or spent how bonds can be passed how municipalities can raise money", "and the third thing and there's much fewer of these but there are some it enlarges individual liberties", "it doesn't restrict them for example giving women the right to vote and amend the constitution to do that", "and so we've got those three things", "what we don't have in the minnesota constitution up to this point is a constitutional amendment that restricts individual liberties", "because if we think an individual liberty should be restricted we expressed that in a law as minnesotans already have done", "and i think that's very powerful because as much as my friend theresa believes very strongly and sincerely not out of bigotry but out of religious belief that that principle of marriage being between one man and one woman is important", "there's a countervailing also conservative principle at play here", "and that's the principle of what a constitution is supposed to do", "and i think that's something that's very important as we go forward", "i also oppose this amendment as a christian", "i'm not going to speak on that", "i'm going to defer for reverend stevenson on that", "but i will say that i know how controversial that is", "i wrote a piece for cnn several months ago and it was called the christian case for gay marriage", "and it got over twelve thousand comments", "and i got a lot of email too several people thought i should be cast into a lake of sulfur which fortunately it hasn't happened yet", "but the third reason that i am and this crosses over into my legal views as well", "is that i'm prolife i'm not ashamed to say that", "i believe in a constant prolife ethic", "i am against the death penalty as just was mentioned last week in fact i was in california talking about that at fuller seminary", "i'm also against abortion", "i don't think abortion should be legal", "and i write and speak about that", "i just finished a piece for stanford's law review that i'm going to go out and speak on regarding abortion", "but one of the reasons that i'm prolife and this is linked both to my view of the law and my view of my faith is because there is an imperative that we value life that we value the life that god has created within and amongst us", "and yes to me that means protecting unborn children", "it also means not executing people even those who are guilty but it means something beyond that", "it means also that people who are here those who are amongst us everyone has the right to be who they were created to be", "i don't think having known a number of gay men and lesbians that they chose that especially in texas where i lived for ten years where being a gay man or a lesbian caused you to be cast out of every circle that you were a part of", "who would choose that and when i was in texas i worked at baylor university", "baylor university has a policy that they do not hire gay men or lesbians as faculty or staff", "they do not allow them to enroll as students", "and in fact when i started teaching there the rule was that it wasn't even that people were sexually active just the status of samesex attraction was a bar to admission", "and i taught there unfortunately without thinking through the implications of that", "what we were telling people those amongst us who were gay and some of them were my students was that there was no love for you on earth or in heaven", "and i feel very deeply that that's not something that we have the right to say to others", "and then i think that if there is love for those people on earth and in heaven it should be within the covenant of marriage", "the last thing before i conclude we lawyers tend to be very much on time because if we're not a judge yells at us is as a father", "i started out talking about fathers and being a father", "and the reason it matters to me as a father is that i hear the arguments from the other side that there's a threat to children posed by gay marriage", "and the argument i suppose is that if there is gay marriage then children will see that gay men and lesbians are married to one another", "it will undermine their belief in heterosexual marriage", "and they'll be less likely to get married themselves", "which to me seems like a fairly obtuse set of connections", "but as a father there's something that i know and it's this there are gay men and lesbians in relationships in this state in this community within my own school who have children and they're not hypothetical children", "they're real children with names", "it's katie and bobby", "they're kids that go to school with my kids", "and they have two parents who care for them", "maybe two women maybe two men", "but for those children i believe what the other side said says is true", "that those parents in marriage are better parents", "that marriage provides a stability that's good for children", "and if i care about those children those real actual children with names and birthday parties and graduation dates i should want their parents to be married and have the ability to do that and have the law reflect that important reality", "thank you", "we are going to take questions for professor ostler", "who has any questions for mr ostler i'm bob zik and i do public television", "and i was hoping let me just hold this", "i was hoping that you would actually touch on the law concerning this issue and not get focused on the emotional feeling of the issue", "now i mean you started off by saying that it shouldn't be in the constitution because it's restricted", "but maybe it should be in constitution because it's protective", "those are some bad things", "and then we get down here to have the right to be who they are nobody takes that right away", "nobody takes the right from a gay person to love who they want to love", "so i don't think you need to go there", "i'm not threatened by gay lesbian transgender not at all", "as a christian we're taught to love everyone because we all share the same father god", "now let's i want to touch a little bit is there a question coming here bob there is a question i'm gonna ask him a question", "because the normal argument i guess is the 14th amendment", "no one shall deny the equal protection under the law the law applies to everybody correct so let's look at discrimination from a legal perspective what does discrimination mean my understanding or what has been taught to me it means to make a distinction", "that's what discrimination in the law means to make a distinction", "now when you look at the law concerning this because when you mentioned that this issue will be taken or is in the courts there's the rational basic basis test rational basis for the distinction correct", "different treatment discrimination", "the discrimination is a distinction", "i'm going to have to ask you to quickly get to your question", "well we'd like to understand the law and i'm asking how to explain this law so i'm gonna make two more points here", "okay so if you could get to you question quickly", "the next next part of that is strict scrutiny test", "if the law impact the fundamental right or a suspect classification and what would be is there a compelling state interest", "now suspect classification now you're giving a lecture to a professor just give us another second here", "you are not asking a question you're giving a lecture", "if we could get to a question aspect classification race religion gender national borders not sexual preference", "and your question is the question is what is the legal basis for challenging this in courts under the 14th amendment i have a short answer to that that is that i didn't address that because it's not an issue here", "of course there's not a challenge to the minnesota amendment", "it hasn't been enacted", "i'm talking to voters that's how it's being decided", "that's where the law rests right now next question", "yes sir", "you broached the issue of right now", "we have gay people raising children that raises the issue of adoption", "is it not the case that it is legal for gay people to adopt in the city and if that is so do you have an opinion as to why the legislature simply didn't ban adoption by gay people if the one of the major objects of this amendment is to protect children yeah i can't i'm not a family law expert", "the constitution is one of my fields but but to answer that question and i always try to be generous to the people who made the decision if i wasn't there", "if i just remembered that legislature one reason i might make that distinction from area principle is that with adoption you have people who are the natural parents of the child where it then is going to they're in a new relationship and the original mother or father is now out of the picture", "now there's a samesex partner", "they let that partner adopt the child so that there will be two parents", "and i think that was seen as something where that relationship was going to be there anyways", "and they couldn't intercede or affirm it or deny it in any way", "and you know from a point of compassion the other thing is that i think that social workers who play a key role in adoption part of their code is that they don't discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation", "that because so much of adoption goes through social workers and has social worker involvement that if you mandated that kind of description of who could adopt and who couldn't you would lose their cooperation in that important process", "one of the arguments i hear is that clergy people do not want to be put in the boxes of they must marry gay or lesbian couples and could you explain if that's a legitimate way to go about this or not my interpretation of it simply is that it could become something that could be used as a weapon if you go about it like that so could you explain that yeah that's a question that first of all it's pretty far away from what we're talking about with the amendment", "i mean with the amendment it's if what's already in the law is going to be put into the constitution", "that said let's say we were talking about one of those other states where what they're voting on is to allow gay marriage directly", "in those states of course you have clergy saying the same thing", "clergy always have had the freedom to not marry people that they don't approve of", "if i was to go to the catholic church and say i want you to marry me to someone they would say you're not catholic and not let me be married there", "and that's something that's respected by the state", "and so i think that that is something that would be such a radical departure from our current relationship between the state power and religion that it's pretty unimaginable", "did you have a follow up on that the reason i bring it up is because it's one of the reasons people are handing out to people", "and so the distinction really is that marriage is a civil process and isn't it the story with the churches if you will right or option to marry people and two separate services you have the civil ceremony and the religious ceremony", "there are always these options that's why we got so far from what this is really about", "well i'm fortunate to have reverend stevenson here because he actually has married people", "and so i'll defer to him and he'll probably address it in his part", "i'm tim finley i also would like some more on the constitutional issues", "one comment you made was we don't have in our constitution which restricts liberties in minnesota constitution which is different than the federal constitution", "seventeen year old's can't vote", "even in the federal constitution you have to be a certain age twenty one thirty five to be able to do things", "judge to judge you have to be learned within the law", "there's all kinds of restrictions that are in our constitution", "what is the constitution about because why is the is the relationship between things and people and the way our corporate government is designed is that people are the final authority", "the people determine the relationship with government that has to follow it", "just briefly on that the restrictions that you're talking about a restriction to the relationship in the government and that's different than what we're talking about here which is the relationship between people", "and so i think that's an important distinction", "okay last question", "hi i'm kenny noel", "i have two moms", "and the fact that they know when they married they talk about the bills and and how they express the matter of how they want everything because it's separate", "well if i let me just make sure i understand the question correctly and that is that you've got two moms and right now they have to deal with everything separately as your parents", "instead of being a unit as a whole and that's part of you're exactly the person i was talking about", "you know that there are things that go with marriage", "i was talking about the stability but there's also that", "there's the recognition of the family unit", "and you know what whether your mothers are married to one another or not you're a family", "and and the society generally accepts that", "if marriage is a good thing for a family to have as a part of it then this is a promarriage thing to allow your mothers to get married to one another", "okay thanks for your question", "we'll move on to our next speaker dr laura boysen", "good evening", "i actually worked not only at augsburg college but i'm also doing some adjunct work at the university of minnesota", "and again these are not any reflection on i'm not speaking for either of the university or the college", "i actually was going to start tonight by saying how glad i was to be here", "because in fact the project at my house tonight is doing some foundation work on my house doing some masonry", "and of course that's not an area of my expertise", "and i was thinking man this has gotten me out of something good", "i do think that diy network gives you a little false sense of security nowadays", "but now i what i'm hoping is that i can talk a little bit about the family", "this is a for the past two or three decades i've been working with infants and families and children", "and what i'm hoping to do is kind of talk about what we know about what's good for children", "what's good for infants what's good for families", "and actually wanted to talk a little bit about how families have changed because they have changed significantly during my lifetime", "we know that families now look a lot different than the mid 1950s the mid 1960s", "many of us in this crowd probably grew up watching the cleaver family maybe the brady bunch and families really the majority of families in the us now most families for parents who have children", "most of those families have children that are over eighteen years of age", "most of them most families the majority of families now don't have young children", "so people are marrying we know at an older age", "we know that the highest number of births to women are to women who are now over age thirty", "we know that from one thousand nine hundred and seventy to two thousand children in two parent families actually decreased from eighty five to below seventy", "and currently over thirteen million there are over thirteen million single parents", "and most of the single parents that have children are women", "and although most of these women work a third of them are living in poverty", "and we know that the biggest the largest variable for poor outcomes for children is if you live in a family or a home where you're low income", "and in fact we know the divorce rate is as high as nearly sixty of new marriages now end in divorce", "we know that approximately ten of children are now living in homes with their grandparents", "and if those children living in their grandparents home are without a parent in that home they're more likely to be poor", "this is what perhaps is one of the most amazing statistic", "when you think about the impact of poverty on poor outcomes for children is that fifty of all children in the us will at some point while they're a child be on food stamps", "and if you're a black child in this country ninety of black children are at some point going to be on food stamps", "so many times as i tell my students the fastest way into poverty for a woman is divorce", "the fastest way out of poverty is marriage", "and finally one other statistic in terms of families and marriage is the drop in the marriage rate in this country", "the annie e casey foundation is reporting that over the past thirty years there's been a forty drop in the number of us citizens who are getting married", "and that delay is based on seems to be due to the economy", "we are increasingly seeing folks cohabitate that are unmarried", "and so from these stats we know that families are really looking very different than what they used to look like", "we also know that children are growing up in gay and lesbian families", "when we the two thousand and ten data the census data tell us that there are at least nine hundred thousand samesex couple households", "and this is an increase in fifty two from two thousand to two thousand and ten", "and it's estimated that twenty two of partnered lesbians and five of gay men have children in their households", "so we know that that even though folks can't marry that in fact at least in minnesota that in fact what we're seeing is we're seeing kids live in families with two moms and or two dads", "one of the things i would like to say when you think about poverty and poor outcomes for children we know that gay men out gay men earn more money than heterosexual couples", "we know that in fact women earn lesbian women they earn more money than heterosexual women", "and so one of the things if you're thinking about what's good for kids we know that poverty is not good for kids", "and in fact because lesbian and gay couples are more highly educated they are more likely to have advanced degrees college degrees", "in fact they tend to have higher median incomes", "there has been a lot of research and here i want to point out some things about google because one of the things that people in fact i did this today", "i googled children raised by gay and lesbian couples", "and if you do that what you're going to do is you're going to see a whole page", "the first page is going to be a gentleman by the name of reganour", "and he is at the university of texas at austin", "and he's recently published some research that gives lots of poor outcomes for kids that are in gay and lesbian households", "the reason i say that is because i caution you to not always go to the front page", "what you might want to do is google and then go to the academic site or the scholar site because that will give you a more balanced view in terms of the literature", "and let me just talk about kids that are raised in gay and lesbian homes", "the bulk of the literature says that those kids are more empathic", "and in fact the census that they're more empathic because they face more scrutiny and they may face more bias with the things that are said against about them and about their families", "these kids that are raised in gay and lesbian homes they are no likely they are no more likely to be gay than kids raised in heterosexual homes", "they seem to have the same level of selfconfidence and ego strength", "unfortunately they do sometimes suffer because of the bias that they may face because of their parents", "and one of the other things in the comparison is that you'll notice lesbians lesbian couples are more often than single heterosexual females single heterosexual mothers to include men in their children's lives", "they have an appreciation that they need to have they need as you were talking about how men are throwing up their children women are more cuddly", "they seem to understand that in fact they need to have the different sorts of interactions with their kids", "the other thing when you look at the literature is that when you think about are gay and lesbian couples happy as happy as heterosexuals in general gay couples report as much satisfaction as heterosexual couples", "and when you look at lesbian couples they actually report more satisfaction in their relationships than heterosexual couples", "finally i have done some one of the things that a colleague and i were interested in is why are gay and lesbian people getting married in particular we were interested in we researched older lesbians because the literature is pretty replete in the back to that older lesbians are sometimes pretty protective about their social identity category because they don't want to face bias", "and so they may be more likely to be closeted", "and so one of the questions we had was why would they go to a county clerk's office and kind of face what we call in social work we call it microaggressions", "why would they want to have bias come their way and so what we did was we we interviewed some folks in california some women in california washington state iowa and what we found was similar themes that you'll find in the research", "and i also want to tell one little story before i get to the themes there were several couples we interviewed that had gotten married in san francisco", "at the time when the mayor opened up marriage", "and i don't know if any of you have seen any of the footage about that particular day in san francisco where the mayor opens it up", "and what happens is gay and lesbian couples start forming outside of the courthouse waiting to get married", "well there's a driving rainstorm and they decide that even in the driving rainstorm they are going to stay outside of that courthouse", "many people don't get in the courthouse that day to get married", "and so the police come out about five o'clock and they say to many of these couples you need to leave", "you can't assemble here overnight", "and several couples said that they talked about they talked to the police and they said well what are you going to do if we don't leave will you arrest us and the police officer said well probably not", "so there was like a monsoon rainstorm throughout the night and the crowd continued to grow", "and there are stories about people in san francisco coming to the courthouse throughout the evening bringing food bringing umbrellas bringing raincoats and bringing chairs for people to sit in and supporting those folks who were waiting in line who were scared that if they left the line that they would never be permitted to get back into the line so that they could marry the next day when the courthouse opened", "so that's a little bit of kind of the resolve that many had in california", "and when you look at the literature about and when you talk to the people about and you talk to these lesbians about why would you go through this why would you choose to marry many of them talk about wanting the legal and civil rights that come with marriage that anne's actually going to be talking about", "many talked about how they were very surprised", "these women that we spoke to had been who had been together anywhere from ten to thirty five years", "and some of them actually some of them were very surprised and they talked about how when they got married there was a deepening commitment to their relationship", "they talked about how marriage changed their perceptions about how they were as a couple and that they now felt legally and financially more secure", "and in fact for the folks in california we talked to several folks that they now had rights to their california pensions", "and these were people who were no longer they didn't have to worry about living in poverty", "they also said that they had much more of a feeling of permanence", "so when you look at the literature the literature is pretty it's pretty clear that gay and lesbian parents are not there are no poor outcomes for kids because of gay lesbian parents", "and that marriage somehow creates a permanence and more of a financial security", "and finally one other thing i want to say when i had a real job before i started teaching i actually worked in infant mental health", "and one of the things that was very clear when we worked with infants and toddlers and that we believe very so any of you that know selma fraiberg and the research she has done is that children are mirrors of their she just said mirrors of their mothers", "we like to say mirrors of their primary caretakers", "and one of the things that we know is that if in fact the parents are secure not living in poverty and not depressed feeling secure in terms of their family and the commitment that in fact children do much better", "and so i would say that one of the things we need to think about is if children are in fact mirrors of their parents in terms of their mental health we need to look at that literature very seriously", "as we think about what sorts of policies we enact for children or for children and parents", "thank you", "are there any questions for dr boysen i want to ask people to identify themselves by first name so we can keep a record", "i'm david i have a question on internationals people moving in from other cultures into like these cities", "what's that research on them where their families are", "i'm curious to see that maybe you're tapping into some research on people moving in from other cultures into and living in our cities", "and this is unrelated to this to this topic", "what would kind of be your research with families in general oh so you're wondering about yeah so we are there are actually we have four groups of people", "we actually are either the first we are first in the country or second in the country in terms of these populations moving immigrating here", "so for instance among folks the car in actually i'm trying to pull from my lecture i just did last week in terms of immigration we actually are a hotbed in terms of immigration and twin cities", "and you're wondering and besides that the additional question is the views of marriage family things you'd have to face with when you immigrate okay so as you know when people immigrate they immigrate with the cultures that they had in their home country", "and so really the one of the tasks for families who immigrate is when they get to the firstgeneration or that second generation how do they then mold into their family kind of what happens with the mores of the united states with what's happening in their home countries", "and so what you'll see is that many of the parents who immigrated will stick with traditional values and then their children and then their grandchildren will start to integrate the values of the united states", "and in fact what you'll find in that generation of young children that have moved here perhaps at a young age is that many times you'll find that those kids take on the united states persona very strongly", "and so there can be a lot of tension", "and in fact many times the people that are seen for problems or in within the family are those families where they've been unable to kind of negotiate those inherent intensions of immigrant parents and this first generation so it is a tension", "other questions i appreciate you mentioning about the 1950s and the families back then compared to today", "but i think that's a part of the problem is that the culture has been the needing a father making a big effort to push the father now", "the statistics for fatherless families and the kids being deprived of continuity is very high but but that is not i mean kicking a father out does not help our country", "does not help the tax burden the taxes everything", "so i don't see that as a positive step of even for heterosexuals that are families", "one of the things i would say about that tim is actually a public policy", "when you look at the researcher on public policy and what's best for families one of the things that's not good for families is the inequity between the inequity that we're seeing in our country right now in terms of lowincome versus highincome", "and when you look at those inequities it is the inequity in the us is as high now as it was in the 1920s", "and we know that when there's that kind of inequity and the kind of we just we're having there are books being written right now about what's happening with our males with our male youth", "and terms of that we don't have strong policy for what to do around our young men and that we need to have more social policies that actually speak to education getting them educated getting them jobs those sorts of things", "and that in fact i would agree with you completely", "i think that a two parent household maybe where we would disagree was who those two parents are but certainly two parent households", "we know that they are more apt to not live in poverty and they are more sensitive and more responsive and receptive to their children", "and so i actually would agree with you completely that two parent households are in fact much better for children", "there are many more resources for those kids and they have much better outcomes", "okay were going a little bit long", "there will be a time again for additional questions for all the panelists", "we're just going to take a ten minute break", "we have water and cookies at the table", "if you did see the surveys when you came in we'd like to have everybody fill out a survey we mentioned that the the cable the broadcast here this evening is being recorded", "by ransom washington cable commission", "the recording will be cablecast by the city of maple on channel sixteen and will be online at the city of maplewood", "and at rwcablecom", "before i introduce anne again i'd like to ask gary if he would like to make comments to the audience", "hi my name is gary grefenberg", "i'm chair of the roseville human rights commission one of the two cosponsors of this event", "i wanted to welcome you tonight especially wanted to thank john and the maplewood human rights commission for their efforts to hold this forum in an unbiased and fair way", "i want to repeat repeated efforts were made with the minnesotans for marriage to send a speaker", "they consistently refused so we tried our best", "i also want to add that the roseville human rights commission believes that human rights are controversial but that should not reclude rational and respectful dialogue on these issues", "human rights in this country have always been controversial", "if there had been a referendum in mississippi and alabama and georgia we never would have seen the civil rights and the rights of black people to exercise their", "so from our viewpoint the roseville human rights commission believes that marriage is a civil right and civil law civil law and civil constitutions should permit all of those", "irrespective their sexual orientation the ability to exercise that right", "so thank you again for coming", "if you'd like further information on future human rights events and activities please sign up by the water on your way out", "oracle an event next monday night on religious perspectives on samesex marriage", "this event will have the representative pastors from a variety of religious perspectives including those of an evangelical persuasion proceeding will be speaking from their beliefs", "so we invite all of you to come to roseville monday night", "there's some flyers here", "if you'd like to further continue the dialogue on religious perspectives thank you", "okay thanks gary", "anne we have two different microphones that you can use", "you can use the handheld microphone", "you can use the one at your desk or the podium", "we have one that you can take if you need to walk out to see your presentation", "if you need to be able to see your powerpoint", "well thank you very much john", "and thanks so much everybody for being here tonight", "i'm really glad to be here this evening", "i appreciate both human rights commissions invitation to speak with you tonight", "i'm annekaner roth i am the executive director of project five hundred and fifteen and i'm going to talk with you a little bit about project five hundred and fifteen and the work that we do as well as the research that we've done which really relates to the topic on your agenda which are the kinds of rights and responsibilities that couples access with legal civil care", "so just a little bit about project five hundred and fifteen", "project 515's mission is equal rights and considerations under the law for samesex couples in minnesota", "and just to reiterate what some of the speakers have referenced currently in minnesota law marriage between samesex couples is not legal", "and this came into play in one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven when the minnesota legislature hatched its own version of what we've seen at the federal level as the defense of marriage act", "and see some of the language here on the slide in law which states that lawful marriage is only between persons of the opposite sex and that marriage between the persons of the samesex is prohibited", "so just to clarify not really have what the law is in minnesota currently", "so just a little bit of background of how we got to where we are at this point", "looking at this ballot measure which we will have on the ballot exactly two weeks from today ballot measures have been passed by the legislature", "they bypass the governor and go directly to the electorate to approve or or deny", "and so you see on the slide what we saw happen at the minnesota legislature with the constitutional amendment passing in the senate as well as in the house on a bipartisan manner on both sides", "in fact there were republicans that opposed the amendment there were democrats that supported it again legislature bypasses the governor", "so although the governor folks may remember i issued a symbolic veto of the amendment the ability to approve these kinds of amendments go directly to the electorate", "and on the evening of the passage of the bill in the final body of legislature that campaign which was called minnesotans united for all families was launched to work against this amendment and to defeat it on the ballot", "language that folks will see on the ballot is important to look at it see and think", "i've been working with this issue and with this campaign now for what's going on almost two years and what i've seen in the discussions that i have with voters every day is that there is a lot of confusion about what this question is what language would be on the ballot and what that question actually means", "and so i think it's important to take a look at it in advanced point to the ballot box and the language we'll see is shall the minnesota constitution be amended to provide that only the union of one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in minnesota yes or no", "as we talk about a little bit marriage for samesex couples in minnesota is presently illegal", "so a yes vote puts a ban on samesex marriage in the constitution which replicates what we already have in statute", "a no vote keeps the current basically the status quo", "there's a little bit about project five hundred and fifteen what we work on as we move into some of the research that we do", "project five hundred and fifteen has four primary strategies", "the first is public education", "we do quite a lot of public speaking and talking about the research that we do telling the stories of the families which i'll be getting to in just a moment", "one of the things that we find is that it is illuminating for people to hear about the kind of impact that minnesota law has on families in minnesota presenting on that as well", "one of the niches that project five hundred and fifteen has in the community is specific outreach in the corporate community folks may know that minnesota has a special corporate community and that is per capita the largest in the country in terms of fortune five hundred companies", "and interestingly enough some seventy of those companies have offered domestic partner benefits to their employees for decades in fact", "and so minnesota businesses have really stepped out in the past for quite some time in terms of trying to level the playing field for their employees", "and finding a legislative advocacy is one of the keystones of project five hundred and fifteen", "so as we work towards eliminating the five hundred and fifteen laws that discriminate against samesex couples who work at the state capitol to change those thoughts", "some of the research that we have done works on surveying minnesotans", "in fact project five hundred and fifteen did the very first survey of minnesotans to start to understand how minnesotans felt about issues related to equality for samesex couples in minnesota", "and one of the things that we found was that eight out of ten of the respondents said that government shouldn't treat people differently because of their sexual orientation", "and that seventy minnesotans said that gays and lesbians have the same rights and responsibilities as everybody else", "and this is the same data really that we have gathered year after year asking questions in many different ways", "but what we found is that in minnesota minnesotans really do support equality", "the primary research however that project five hundred and fifteen is really known for came originally out of william mitchell school of law where we worked with law professors there and students to essentially gather data on minnesota statutes by calling through every statute in minnesota to find out how many statutes afforded rights or benefits or responsibilities to people by the ability to access marriage", "and so what we used were keywords like spouse and marriage to see what would that trigger for families in minnesota", "and what we found is that there were as you've probably gathered by now at least five hundred and fifteen laws in minnesota that discriminate against samesex couples and their families by not allowing marriage for those families", "and what we see in that research really is laws that impact families really in the full spectrum of life", "everywhere from from birth to death you see differences in the way that samesex couples are treated to married couples in so many different ways in healthcare in social services in politics in providing for your family", "and also at the time of death and beyond", "we know that these are things that hurt families deeply as the speaker before me referenced", "there are many many samesex couples in minnesota that are raising children", "so just to kind of dig into it a little bit more if you can see this slide we can see really the range of laws that we're talking about", "ninety one laws that relate to death estates and trusts", "twenty eight laws that relate to courts and criminal law", "thirty seven laws that relate to tax and property", "so you start to see that we really are talking about every way in which the law impacts people's lives whether that's your day to day life or a certain events over the course of your lifetime these statutes really do impact families all the way through", "so i want to tell a little bit about some of these various specific statutes", "i find that it's usually interesting for people who can't wrap their head around what could these five hundred and fifteen statutes really be", "and how is that meaningful to people in minnesota", "so the first one that i have up here says the spouse of a patient is the first person a treating physician must consult if a patient can't consent to treatment", "and this might be something that folks who are married in the room would just sort of assume this is kind of social convention right so you're in the hospital and your spouse is unconscious not able to make decisions for themselves", "and you're there you're the spouse or the partner who should be the person that helps to make those decisions", "in fact this is something that is directed by statute in minnesota specifically to the legal next of kin", "and for a samesex couple a legal next of kin is never going to be the samesex partner because they are not legally married", "so they are not legally related in the eyes of the law", "so here's a story that was told to us that highlights what this could look like for real families", "this is the story of earl and chuck", "and earl and chuck had been together for several years at the time of this story when chuck experienced a medical emergency while he was out of running he was taken to the hospital", "fortunately although he did not have any identification on him a friend of the couple was on duty at the hospital and called the partner earl to come to the hospital", "but when earl arrived at the hospital he was not allowed to be in the emergency room with chuck", "he was not allowed to make medical decisions on his behalf and chuck was unconscious and so could not consent to the treatment that he needed", "and so it fell to earl to spend two hours of precious time to track down chuck's parents to be able to consent to the treatment that their son needed and lost valuable hours in which the treatment could have been delivered", "so second statute that i wanted to talk with you about", "and this is sadly one story that we hear over and over married couples have the right to control the disposition of their spouse's remains", "so this is that what could perhaps be the most tragic point in someone's life", "where your spouse or partner has passed away you know what their final wishes were", "and instead of the coroner's office being able to talk with you about what those final wishes would be the coroner is required to speak to the next of kin", "so like in this story bob and his partner richard who've been together for eighteen years had each other's contact information in their wallets in case of emergencies", "but when richard died unexpectedly from a heart attack at a grocery store bob was not contacted by the medical examiner's office", "they initially called bob's phone but they couldn't share any information with him", "and instead they needed to look for the next of kin", "next of kin ended up being richard's sister marge who lived out of town", "it took quite some time to track her down", "we actually heard this story from the sister", "she was quite irritated actually that the partner of eighteen years was not the one that was allowed to take this final responsibility of caring for his partner at this final stage", "and that in fact she was the one that needed to take responsibility for that even though it was richard or that was bob that knew about richard's wishes", "so now we're going to try a little bit of technology", "i want to show you a video of another story of carrie rebecca and ruby", "so hold tight lets see if we can get this technology to work", "oh that pregnancy was awesome", "she was picture perfect", "we had a beautiful pregnancy and and then one night i woke up in a crisis i guess you can say i woke up i was losing ruby feeling pain and then ripping around at me and and and fainting i guess or i dunno if they even got the anesthesia in and then ruby was born they had to resuscitate her a few times", "they did everything lifesaving that they could but as far as this elective treatment which saved her brain saved her from having a life of of severe brain damage", "and allows her to live a normal life and allow her to live", "yeah it was an elective treatment because it was very experimental and just a clinical trials", "and it's not an automatic it's something you have to consent to", "we had started talking to our lawyer about adopting ruby since before she was born but you can't adopt an unborn child", "so i had no legal rights to ruby's medical care", "and so they were communicating back and forth with rebecca's doctor at the hospital and she hadn't woken up yet", "and her doctor knew the severity of it", "and her doctor literally ran her over to children's to sign the papers as soon as she woke up", "and it was within minutes", "if she'd been a few minutes later we would not have been able to get her this treatment because there's a small window of opportunity if i hadn't woken up in time", "you know she wouldn't have gotten this therapy and that means she probably could have died because the seizures or she probably would've been severely brain damaged", "are you going to do some of the puzzle with me we love our daughter and we love each other", "and we've been together for almost ten years now", "and it's now we're we're a family", "we're not any different", "project five hundred and fifteen started with really a broad base give you a break from the promotional piece there", "thank you for that", "so that that's another type of story", "folks may have actually seen carrie and rebecca on the ellen show", "they were on that show a few months ago", "they actually are a minnesota couple and after that story became public", "i think it's sort of a story that really shows how in the moment and quickly these kinds of laws can impact a family where you see an instance where the child is at risk of dying the birth mother is unconscious and the partner who is intended to be the mother is not able to make decisions for that child and places that child's life at risk", "these are the kinds of stories that we see in minnesota really every day", "so i'm actually going to wrap up here but i think you get a feel at this point for the kinds of laws that we have in minnesota right now that impact married couples in a very very different way than they impact samesex couples", "five hundred and fifteen of those laws in minnesota right now", "this amendment is something that doesn't change those five hundred and fifteen laws but that's creating a premise for those families to never be able to achieve the full equality through being able to achieve those same rights responsibilities and obligations", "so if it's not fair there's provision up here for you and i'd be glad to take some questions", "does anyone have questions they've been together for over thirty years and tom died last year", "and they thought that they had everything covered", "they had gone to a lawyer and gotten all kinds of powers of attorney contracts and all kinds of things set up that they thought would cover them because they knew tom was ill and they knew his time was short but scott was left with nothing", "he had no rights as it turned out after tom died", "and the issues of property issues of like even the car that was in tom's name scott couldn't sell it because he couldn't sign the title", "so i'm wondering if in reality is there anything short of changing the statutes that gay couples can do samesex couples can do to address these inequalities if they have a sense that they may be in a situation like that great thanks for that question", "this is something actually that comes up quite a lot is can't we just impact these kinds of inequities through some kind of legal contract that you could go to a lawyer and draft up and therefore protect your family", "and the reality is that there are some things that you can affect in that way", "and many many more things that you can't", "the reality also is that some families can afford to go to a lawyer and spend thousands of dollars to draft up that kind of legal paperwork", "and a lot of families aren't able to even afford that even if it were available", "so the reality is that there are there are some things that can be impacted that way and it just depends", "some of those things end up helping out those families", "and then sometimes there are families that experience a devastating loss where that wasn't able to be impacted", "other questions is there more about the question i think it is it's an interesting question", "i think there have been these progressions throughout history where you see some differentiation made between certain kinds of families and other kinds of families certain kinds of people and other kinds of people", "this movement towards equality for for lgbt people and samesex couples is frankly a fairly new movement", "but i think that it is a reference that is sometimes made is that this was a learning that our country went through at one point where we felt that it was appropriate to treat caucasians differently than we treated people of color and had laws that reflected that", "and ultimately those laws were changed", "and so i think that that is the direction that organizations like mine expect the state to have moved towards", "one more question identify yourself by your first name", "hi i'm tyler i was wondering is there a progression in how not only in high school but they're over in district eleven a couple of years ago there's a bunch of kids committing suicide because of bullying", "is there a progression in how much understanding of the lgbt there is i think so i think what tyler's reflecting on is is really a devastating impact of discrimination and bullying that that we saw very very clearly in the inoca hennepin school district to much national and of course local attention as well", "the direction that the state has started to move in is reflecting on how to impact that level of bullying at the state level through legislation", "the governor had appointed a task force to really study the issue of bullying in minnesota", "i believe that taskforce just ended in the summer and had recommendations that were issued", "there has been legislation that has been introduced several years in a row i believe that would really create some stronger guidelines for schools around what is allowed and what's not", "we do obviously in minnesota have laws that should protect youth from bullying", "those laws are not what's called enumerated which means that it's sort of a blanket law but it doesn't specify certain kinds of populations that research really shows could use some extra protection", "and that that enumeration does help to protect children in that way", "so that is something that frankly i would expect to see at the legislature", "i know that that has been an active coalition that safe schools for all coalition has been an active coalition for a number of years", "and the goal is to pass legislation that will protect kids in a stronger way", "we'll take one more question and then others that have questions please save it for the end of this evening", "hello my name is shaun", "i have a question so well first of all if you could define this a little bit more so we could understand what this means as a change in terms of the marriage act", "well first of all in terms of a definition i'm not sure that i can give you a definition", "there are i think as john reflected on a number of states in the country that have enacted civil union legislation it looks different in different states", "states also have different kinds of domestic partner benefits that are in place", "two states in the country has something called reciprocal beneficiaries which is a different kind of policy that impacts samesex couples as well as a broader relationships", "it really so really depends what a state has decided to put forward", "what we have seen in states is that there are protections that can be provided through these kinds of domestic partner benefits", "and you know some states have broader protection some have more narrow protections", "they could all be called civil unions but it really depends what the legislature has put inside of that legislation", "what we've seen in states that have had civil unions or domestic partner type legislation enacted is that over time they find that frankly it just doesn't work very well because in our society the way that we identify family structures and legal family units is through marriage", "and so in these examples for that you saw on the slides if you were to go to a hospital and say i need to see bob", "and they were to say well who are you and you would say well i'm the civil unioner they might not really know what that means", "if you were to say i'm the husband everybody knows what that means", "and so some of what we find in states is that even though there is protections that are put in place through these kinds of mechanisms and they are important without question because in minnesota samesex couples have absolutely no protections at all not one", "so not to deny at all that these kinds of protections can be put in place in some ways but it does seem that the experience in states has been that that has not worked quite well enough and that most of those states start to move towards enacting a broader definition through marriage", "our last speaker is pastor grant stevenson", "good evening", "i really am grateful for your persistence and staying until the last speaker gets up and talks", "and i have some i have some good news", "i think i have a theory as to why i might be able to be brief or at least try", "we have heard speakers tonight from various from various fields", "and as they have been speaking i'm a pastor", "i'm a lutheran pastor i would guess because we're in roseville and maplewood that there are other lutherans in the room", "but i think i could take a pretty good guess that that's not true for everybody", "i think i could take a pretty good guess that there may be catholics in the room", "i think i could take a pretty good guess that there may be people who don't identify with a religious faith in the room", "i think i'm pretty well maybe right", "about all of those things", "and we've been listening to other speakers and what here's what i've noticed although a professor also might disagree with this but bear with me for a minute", "in the area of law everyone knows that there are disagreements right that's why we have courts", "there are disagreements but there is something of a consensus as to how to approach a problem", "there's something of a consensus as to what makes a good argument or a bad argument", "and when that consensus breaks down i guess we have juries", "i'm sure that i'm just being horrifically simplistic in my explanation", "in science and dr boysen and i'm going to you may have the agreement or disagree in science hard sci what they refer to as hard science sciences or also social sciences", "we have clearly many many disagreements but we have something of a consensus in the modern world about methodology and where we have breakdowns in our understanding of methodology we have at least peer reviews the review of our work and the review of our outcomes and the review of our conclusions by peers", "that's how am i right that's how it works", "in my field in the field of religion", "i think it is crystal clear we have disagreements", "but in two thousand and twelve we have no semblance of a consensus on methodologies or peer reviews or even how to read the basic book that many of us claim holds truth", "zero consensus fail zero's two strong", "very very little consensus", "so part of what makes me sympathetic to those who are having i told you john i would try to present as much of both sides as i could", "part of what makes me sympathetic to those who are having a strong religious reaction to the idea of gay and lesbian people being married", "part of what makes me sympathetic is that i am aware that it's just true", "it's true in my own family", "it's just true that when we stand and speak of religious truth we just don't all stand in the same place", "now you might be true", "a really good historian could tell you that there were times that there's never been a time when we all stood in the same place but it is there have at least been times when there were people who could impose a unification of truth", "i think the middleages or something like that that's just not true in america and so we are left", "we are left in america to probably live out the words of the apostle paul more deeply and more profoundly than any generation in the history in any generation that has lived since he spoke them work out your salvation by the way that's a nice greek word that really means healing", "work out your salvation or work out your healing with fear and trembling", "we're not exactly on our own but there is no dominant force", "there is no standard bearer in the area of religion", "and so you'll see religions flourishing and we indeed have to grasp at what we find is most basic and most true for us", "for me i would name as one of those things", "what we often refer to as the golden rule that we treat our neighbors as we ourselves would wish to be treated", "it seems to be a very standard thing that runs true across so many different religions", "the problem with the religious discussion is when one group of people want to claim a kind of unified authority that just doesn't exist in modern america", "and i for one am not unhappy about that that it doesn't exist", "i think we're doing quite well exploring our spirituality exploring our faith exploring our religion", "it does seem to me though that this debate we're having in the state of minnesota is steeped in religious disagreement", "as much as any other kind", "steeped in religious disagreement as much as any as much as any other kind of disagreement", "i have been working myself these last months as i work on the campaign", "john mentioned i'm not an unbiased person in the room", "i am the faith director for minnesotans united", "that's the campaign urging minnesotans to vote no on this", "and i have been working myself with two concepts that i find personally very compelling", "and one is personal the concept of personal freedom", "if any generation has been aware of the obligations and the responsibilities that come that are ours in two thousand and twelve it is in the area of personal freedom", "we have an enormous amount of freedom to decide how we will spend our lives and how we will live them and who we will live them with", "and i think as americans we celebrate that", "i think i think as americans we yearn for that and we desire more of that", "and we don't like it when someone else tells us how we should or shouldn't live", "but then the question that grabs my attention even more than that is the question of religious freedom", "how is it in two thousand and twelve that we could still be having a conversation about which theology will carry the day in the state of minnesota", "i saw on the agenda the question that i was supposed to answer was can the church reconcile gay marriage yes it already has right there are all kinds of churches", "there are all kinds of churches", "there are all kinds of synagogues that right now bless and celebrate the unions of samesex couples", "it already has", "we can't talk about it as if it's a hypothetical thing that someday might happen", "it's true now so the question is will this in my mind will the state of minnesota endorse all of the unions that are churches and synagogues and places of worship bless and celebrate or will it pick and choose i think that's why we're having this debate in the state of minnesota", "and i think it's what this amendment is really about", "i work with a couple and i'm just going to close i'm going to close with this cause i'd really like to deal with questions", "but before i do that let me just do something that i forgot when i said yes we do", "it's not a few religious traditions that bless and affirm and celebrate the unions of samesex couples", "my own church the elca evangelical lutheran church in america we're divided up into what they call synods", "there are six of them synods it means a gathering", "i don't know why we can't use regular english", "there are six of them in the state of minnesota five of the six voted this year either in either at the end of may or in the beginning of june as synods to encourage the people in their church minnesotans to vote against this amendment", "there was one senate in southwest minnesota that voted to not take a vote on on the issue", "the episcopalian church the presbyterian church the united church of christ universalist church unitarian church the methodist church and the rabbinical association all of the rabbis in the rabbinical association of minnesota all have been asking their congregants to vote against the amendment", "so i say that not to convince you that you should vote against it but to lift up the obvious that the faith community is at least very divided on this", "so the division already exists", "each day when i go to work at minnesotans united i sit next to olbie obadiah", "but we call him olbie and javin who is his husband", "they were married while they were both attending seminary at yale which i think is a little uppity but these are really good people", "they were married at the chapel in yale it was a legal", "it was a legal marriage they now live and work here", "javin works for outfront minnesota and is hoping soon to have a call into the lutheran ministry", "and olbie is a pastor as we speak in the united church of christ", "so it's a mixed marriage but sitting next to them every day at work is such a dissonance to me that the two of them i've seen their wedding pictures that the two of them are considered married in one part of this country and not married here", "what does that say about our laws in minnesota what does it say about where we've come well we're in conversation we're in conversation and we're not done", "we're not done yet", "sometimes i encourage people to vote no just because we're not done", "there's just lots of conversation to be had", "i'd like to stop there because to go on would lead me down the path of doing a bible study", "and i've already i hope i convinced you that if i were to do that i would do it from my perspective a lutheran trained pastor probably a bit on the progressive end of things", "and it may not be yours", "so we have to be in conversation with one another about how we read these books and how we understand these and how we understand these truths thank you", "questions for pastor stevenson okay bob", "several questions pastor first of all do you believe the bible is the revealed word of god i believe this is the kind of conversation that will get tricky but yes i do", "i believe that that i mean for me that's just true", "i believe that the bible is the revealed word of god", "and i believe i was speaking for myself", "and i believe that the narrative and the bible is a narrative of freedom and liberation", "and that includes me", "and i think and i believe that it includes you", "i'd like to say on behalf of my friend bob here that's the first time i've heard an answer that was longer than bob's question", "the next question is do you believe words have meanings clearly they do i'm answering your question", "so the question becomes how do you negate all the scriptures in the bible that absolutely say two things", "one that homosexuality is an upfront i'll say it nicely upfront to god", "why say it nicely say it how the bible says it", "abomination and then the thing how do you justify and debate scriptures but one that immediately comes to mind is the one that's usually used at most by everybody a man shall leave his mother and father mother and father not two mothers not two fathers and marry his wife and become one", "when you have those kinds of direct usages of words in a revealed word of god how do you see a pastor and pastor's interpretation by humans how do you justify saying that it's open for interpretation clearly it is open for interpretation", "i mean you've made an you've made an interpretation just now you quoted a passage", "for example from the book of genesis that i would read as a passage of hope and a passage of promise and and a passage of love", "a man shall leave his mother and father and cling to his wife", "i myself have done exactly that", "i don't know if you're married but perhaps perhaps you have done it as well", "and i believe that passage reflects one of the deepest truths that i hold about my faith which is that god created us for relationship", "and god created us for community", "the truth is god created some of us gay so should relationship and that kind of community and that kind of intimacy be denied someone who's gay or not", "and i would say that has i don't understand how that could be from a perspective of a loving god", "could i take just give a different perspective and answer to bob's question", "and that is that this is a question i struggle with a lot", "i do take the bible to be the authoritative word of god", "and i agree that homosexuality is described as a sin in places in the bible but here's where i come down on that", "what i am is a relatively affluent straight white guy from adina", "i have my sins that's not my sin", "if i were gay i would struggle with that but i'm not", "and i go to church all the time surrounded by people who have sins that are very different than mine", "i sit in church next to someone who is divorced and remarried", "now that's something that christ spoke directly about in a way he didn't speak directly about homosexuality but that person was married in my church", "and i've come to accept that", "and i have a problem with differentiating the way i treat that person from the way i different i treat a gay couple because if i was to treat the gay couple differently than that remarried person i think at some level i'd have to admit it was bigotry within me that was coming out", "because christ was very clear about the remarried person", "and in the same way that you're saying that the bible has words those words have meaning", "i think those words have meaning coming from christ as well", "in a word that something i was facing i was struggled mightily with that the same way i struggle with the sins that christ has named in my own book", "but i think if i could just add to that one of the things i have heard since since this amendment has been put on the ballot that i didn't hear so much before people are talking so often about a biblical marriage that's a phrase i've heard recently", "a biblical marriage and i've started to ask them which one are you talking about which one adam and eve might be the best but they didn't do so well in their children were homicidal", "we can't be talking about abraham whose wife gave her slave because she was sarah initially barren", "so gave her slave to abraham so that their first child could be born not from sarah but from her slave", "and i think a real a real grownup conversation that we have to have in the faith community is to realize that there's there there has been a pretty big shift mostly over the last two hundred years in marriage", "and it has not come about because of gay and lesbian people", "it has come about because of straight people who have said more and more that a marriage is no longer a contract between a man and his future soninlaw about a piece of property", "but is a contract between a man and a woman and god", "and god but that's but that's an enormous change", "so to talk about biblical marriage without addressing the ownership of women and what it means for another person to be property is to miss the mother load of what's going on", "and so what we ended up doing is pulling out of the scriptures", "what are for us fundamental bottom line values do unto others love mutuality hope", "these are the themes that we've and commitment", "it's also edified and", "don't leave that one out", "yeah thank you", "a question i have had throughout this entire debate and how we go about this reform is how we do have separation through the state", "and this has always been framed around religious issues and the whole reason that this needs to be on the ballot is a lot of people's religion of what's their opinions", "and some people choose other things and may have other rights", "so how is it is this something that then will then be challenged in the courts that this constitutional amendment is unconstitutional yeah well that may happen", "and there's a i was supposed to address a question that came up earlier i was asked back here about clergy functioning as agents of the state", "that's actually that's actually true", "there's only one place in my work where i function as an agent of the state i'm registered in the county of ramsey", "and that is to do marriages", "i have no idea why that came about but i have a theory", "my theory is that as the population in this country expanded westward there were more clergy than there were government bureaucrats", "and so we were deputized by the government to do a civil marriage along with the religious right of marriage", "so if you're if you're a catholic you use the word sacrament for marriage", "a sacrament is a religious right", "we have other ways of talking about it if you're a protestant", "but that civil right is separate", "i mean that sacrament is separate from the civil marriage the civil marriage that is recognized by the state", "and that's why by the way religious leaders will never be forced to marry people that they that they wouldn't want to marry", "it's true now it's always been true and it would be true in the future", "okay got a question here", "hi my name is eric", "i just can't agree more on using a more constructive dialogue on this issue", "i just feel that there is that need to go beyond the shallowness of describing some individuals by our sexual orientation", "so much more makes up a person", "and i think everybody should receive equal dignity and respect going forward", "my only issue going into this instead of avoiding it", "it is my understanding of the amendment", "and this is where i like you to do a fact check on me is that this is not a ban on gay marriage", "and that it's strictly is prohibiting the government or judge or a lawyer or a politician to pass it as a law without voting people", "and for me i want a vote as regardless of the topic it could be a hundred different topics", "it just happens to be marriage right now that the people have a say have a vote to determine law rather than the judge or lawyer or politician", "i just think that there's a lot of misdirections and misinformation pertaining that", "and please correct me wrong but i think all of this energy needs to be directed towards putting gay marriage on the ballot itself and let the people speak rather than a judge in a year or two determining on their own like had happen in new york or massachusetts", "and that's where i'm okay so i'll tell you what i'm going to join my colleagues on the panel and let somebody who works with the law answer that question", "all right well first of all it is a ban on gay marriage", "and of course there's already a ban on gay marriage and it was passed in one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven as we've already heard described", "so it does it reinforces that you know in terms of you know could in terms of what you're saying could a judge overrule that law the legislature go back and change it sure", "that's how our democracy works", "i mean one thing is that what you're talking about in terms of direct democracy where you have a referendum on things that's not our system of government for the most part", "i mean we're a representative democracy", "we do elect politicians and man that's messy and unfortunate but that is the way the american system works is that we don't vote individually on everything", "there's some places that come closer to that", "vermont's one of them where they have town meetings and they send a representative from every hamlet but it's a small state with a tiny population relative to minnesota", "so in terms of you know something like this referendum it's pretty rare that we do this that we vote on something", "so in terms of the legislature making a choice like that that's kind of in our system", "now in terms of judges making those choices i think that's a legitimate concern", "that judges i mean", "the nature of judges that can overrule a statute you know in law we say it's counter of majoritarian that the majority of the people consistent think something and then judges overrule it", "luckily they do it pretty rarely", "now this is an area in which you're right", "in some states they have done that", "but here's something to think about is that maybe that's where the people's vote comes in", "in massachusetts the people didn't rise up and say you know you're wrong judges in iowa you know it's a different situation", "in california they did", "in california there was a judicial decision that allowed gay marriage that allowed that incredible moment in san francisco", "but then they passed proposition eight that there was a referendum that came after that and that kind of dialogue back and forth between the branches of government and the people actually works pretty well in the end", "you know maybe california will come back again in a couple of years and they have a referendum again", "and switch back the other way", "that's in the nature of american government", "it's part of the package of what we have here", "and there's a lot of good to them", "i open questions up to anybody that hasn't had a chance to ask a question to anyone of the presenters", "my question goes to professor ostler as kind of referenced before at the city court system that could be appearing before the supreme court", "can you speculate that whether you anticipated that this would come before the supreme court and when they rule on that and how does that immediately impact the state and things that we put into the state constitution yeah there's a couple issues relating to this", "and one is right now we've got a challenge and a very active challenge to the defense of marriage amendment or the act i'm sorry", "in the federal system which is a statute not a constitutional amendment", "and the second circuit in new york for example just ruled on that i believe by striking it down", "now was that going to come up before the supreme court a lot of people think that it will but that's not this issue", "that's talking about that federal act that really has to do with the full faith and credit clause of the constitution and things like that", "what happens when people move to state to state now that's important it's a different issue", "now with this amendment if it's passed could there be a challenge in court there could be", "who is that likely to reach the supreme court most people that i know who know a lot about the supreme court think that kind of challenge is unlikely to because the justices tend to unless they've got something that's been overruled that's been sustained up through the court of appeals", "they're not going to pluck a case out to decide that because they tend to defer to the way the states came out", "so unless that's being upset they're not likely to go after that", "i hope that makes sense", "my question is to grant possible the law enforcer", "and i appreciate grant's distinction that the religious perspectives vary", "if the archbishop can persuade then others can force their conception of religion down everyone's throat", "what's the difference between that and", "the muslims believe that the qur'an should be the basis of civil law", "isn't this a problem throughout the world where one religion assumes it has god on its side and forces all of us to follow its religious victings well i understand i think i understand what you're saying", "i think that i would think about it in a somewhat different way", "i think that we are by definition in this culture in a conversation and what we expect of each other what we what we hold what we expect of our institutions isn't a process", "and my concern about so i'll be honest with you", "i have some sympathies to the way that you asked that question but my concern about the way that you ask that question is it tends to shut off the conversation", "with the constitutional amendment isn't the archbishop should be off the conversation yes i believe that this constitutional amendment does in fact shut off the conversation yes it does", "that's my point", "just just briefly on that i think the difference is ugly crazy wild democracy", "you know that the archbishop unlike in countries where there's sharia law can't decide something and have it become law", "it has to go through the process of democracy", "and what's happening in minnesota is really remarkable", "i'm really heart because i disagree with the archbishop", "i don't think that's a correct thing to be", "i mean obviously i disagree with him about that about the separate point but you know", "look at the reaction that's happened", "look at the people who are here", "i mean what i'm hearing is that the other side is out raising them six to one that is i really believe that this election in the end in this state is going to be a great american moment", "thirty one states in a row went the other way", "the archbishop wants us to do that", "what we're seeing because of people like these people here and what grant is doing what the people in his office are doing", "there is against that pile of money that started out a hundred thousand voices", "and it's going to start to go the other way", "and this is that turning point", "can i say one more one more thing", "so i think maybe it goes without saying that i have a pretty strong disagreement with derek bishop on this amendment", "there are so many things that he stands for that i'm grateful for", "and part of i think part of our challenge in a political debate that is that is in fact a deeply heated political debate", "part of the challenge is to be able to have it to make it real and to be able to come out the other end as neighbors and as people who can move forward together on other issues", "cause there will be some", "we're talking about my relationship", "talking amendment", "i guess the dialogue here is how would you feel if there was a constitutional amendment that would validate your heterosexual relationship how would you feel and my point is on this issue you have much more faith than i do", "the amendment will probably pass because when people go into a polling place they thought well of course in religion it's one man and one woman", "that it's not the american way", "that is not the bill of rights", "i'd like to have your question i you're the law professor", "what is the basis for thinking that minnesota is so exceptional that it can pull apart from this", "the polls right now that we're seeing", "and i mean i think that what we're seeing is that that it's very close or that the opposition is ahead", "i am an optimist", "i'll admit to that i think that you know i think there's others that we're likely to lose", "for example i've been working on the death penalty referendum in california we're likely to lose that one", "but with this one i think there's a there's a good chance", "this is going to be that turning point", "okay one last question and then we've got our panel member that has a quick review", "the law in minnesota i don't quite get why people are putting such a push on this constitutional thing", "and it seems to me that it's kind of strange but the other part is that if we want in fact real change that people should have the freedom to marry in this case samesex couples what do we have to do first do we have to engage in constitutional things and then go back and do something about the law or how do you make a real change in this kind of juxtaposition well i have to say that i was at the capitol the entire time that this amendment legislation was being considered", "and i don't think i have an answer for you about why this is something that the proponents of it decided to push forward", "obviously it was a priority that they had", "i think there were a lot of different reasons for that", "and here we are", "in terms of the way that you move forward", "i think it does depend on what the outcome of this election is to be if this amendment passes and it is in the constitution then the only way to roll that back would be a second constitutional amendment which i don't expect anybody is projecting will happen anytime soon", "or perhaps something that comes from the higher court", "but as as the professor mentioned that does seem to be coming anytime soon either", "if the amendment fails then i think in minnesota we typically use the legislative process as the mechanism to move forward in these kinds of issues that we are not a state that tends to have a lot of ballot measures", "folks can probably remember you know count even on one hand the ballot measures that you have voted on in this state very different than other states", "i moved here a long time ago from california", "and i know that in that state there is a referendum on just about everything", "and so you get a book in advance so you can study up on on which referendums you will support", "but in minnesota typically we use the legislative process in order to move forward on these kinds of things", "and i would expect that going forward that is the way that that minnesota will progress", "would you have to operate separately on the constitutional piece then and the original law or does it depend it does depend yeah it did", "does it operate separately on the constitutional and then go back and operate off the law if the outcome that you're talking about was to get to a point where samesex couples legally were allowed to marry and the constitutional amendment passes then you would need to do a constitutional change through another ballot measure in order to move forward legislation", "is that does that answer your question okay we lost our panel review people except armando's still here but he's actually got a question", "hi i'm armando i was just wondering this is for the reverend", "you said if god was he created gays and lesbians i was just wondering why would god set people up for failure like that if it's an abomination you know i'll do my best", "i think god created people because god loves people", "and people are different from each other", "and it's people not god who make those differences into something that's hurtful", "so i wouldn't put at god's feet the pain that gay and lesbian people feel when they're discriminated against by others", "i would put that at our feet", "and my perspective is that if we weep for people who are hurt by our behavior and by our laws", "god didn't set us up to fail", "god weeps with us", "and waits for us to fix that", "i'd like to just make a couple of comments", "we'd like to have everybody fill out the survey tonight", "if you take just a second to give us feedback we will collect those surveys and review the results at the next human rights commission meeting november 13th tuesday seven hundred pm at the maplewood city hall", "and we welcome all of your ongoing participation and this discussion will continue at that meeting", "this has been a great panel discussion here tonight", "i want to thank the maplewood staff and commissioners from both maplewood and roseville for the significant effort that it took to put this event together", "we especially want to thank the audience for your great questions and respectful and civil manner which people gathered here to talk with neighbors and finally to our speakers for their outstanding contribution to this town hall meeting thanks everybody", "and good night"], "name": 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{"audio_document_id": "NewsMaga00_3.flac", "identifier": "NewsMaga00_3", "text_document_id": "NewsMaga00_3.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [2310, 2700, 3153, 5880, 7163, 7001, 6423, 14443, 6920, 2713, 2380, 5830, 4263, 12263, 11313, 5340, 6460, 13913, 7040, 6360, 1950, 3799, 5376, 3963, 8530, 8863, 7276, 8166, 9013, 10533, 2830, 5020, 2643, 6303, 4920, 1880, 4560, 4613, 5853, 12417, 8013, 6930, 9420, 2550, 11693, 3850, 2203, 5090, 3830, 5310, 5633, 3280, 2500, 4606, 3084, 7093, 8850, 7073, 5730, 3653, 5490, 2240, 6400, 3460, 6660, 3283, 3860, 5300, 2600, 5040, 5040, 5130, 7273, 6230, 2650, 4600, 14673, 8493, 4160, 3570, 4913, 2750, 3200, 3633, 3043, 3765, 2493, 7830, 2533, 6103, 4737, 7123, 3733, 3413, 10355, 3515, 1800, 2510, 2733, 2850, 8113, 4630, 8510, 5263, 4060, 3320, 3750, 2870, 7383, 5170, 5010, 2240, 7700, 5793, 2373, 8603, 7403, 7520, 6520, 10783, 5790, 3920, 5790, 2480, 5530, 2010, 2820, 1900, 2190, 2793, 10232, 3360, 4750, 4503, 3610, 7283, 4470, 5290, 5440, 2420, 5740, 5540, 4090, 8113, 3283, 2943, 2443, 2473, 2993, 10593, 2783, 5000, 2803, 4510, 8523, 7620, 3863, 3410, 7774, 7270, 14443, 5646, 4900, 2450, 9847, 6310, 2460, 9150, 3740, 1239, 13474, 17160, 15803, 6303, 6923, 6210, 7716, 2903, 3753, 7383, 13133, 8503, 5273, 4813, 8840, 6913, 3330, 9653, 13640, 6087], "label": ["the news magazine of the screen", "living glimpses of history in the making", "presented as a public service by standard oil company", "with an uneasy truce in korea the vanguard of five thousand indian troops arrives in seoul", "many of them wearing colorful native turbines on route to munsan to take custody of prisoners of war refusing repatriation", "fifteen thousand anticommunist chinese pows and eight thousand north koreans head for munsan too", "steadfast in their refusal to return to red rule eager in their determination to remain among free men", "meanwhile a gi project of peace a new school is opened in yangzhou and are the youngsters eager to start but first they pledge allegiance to their republic and offer thanks to american service men whose contributions built it", "construction of this church also was made possible by the generosity of gis who see their dream come true", "faith still shines brightly in korea", "but the united nations cannot lower her guard", "spilling out of giant transports paratroops take part in the biggest training exercises since the armistice", "american soldiers sharpen airborne striking power in operation back door", "operation homecoming in the united states reunites president and mrs eisenhower with their only son john home from a year of frontline duty in korea a happy moment for the eisenhower's", "returning too is general william dean released at panmunjom after three years as a red pow tired and worn but covered with glory an old soldier comes back", "another homecoming in england finds united kingdom troops arriving in south hampton", "ashore are their loved ones seeking the faces of the heroes for whom they have waited so long", "the boys are back in a twinkling the months of captivity are swept away in the breathless joy of reunion safe again ready soldiers who shared with the other allies the privation hardships suffering and frustration of korea", "the future chancellor konrad adenauer's proamerican government is at stake in the crucial west german parliamentary elections", "armed guards watch rail stations to intercept communist agents arriving from the east zone to sabotage the voting", "and back they go where they came from", "adenauer friend of the free world casts his ballot", "meanwhile reinforced police guards handle communist agitators who have managed to slip through", "the resounding triumph for the west adenauer wins a smashing victory", "near the red zone border meanwhile tanks rumble through the village of greenberg as american french and british troops join in nato war games", "it's europe's first atomic maneuvers with both teams launching mock atomic attacks as nato prepares against possible aggression from the east", "back in west berlin's olympic stadium the city's three thousand man police force puts on a spectacular show", "the whip blank precision of a man before a tremendous crowd reflects their readiness for any emergency in red and circled west berlin", "the tensions that grip berlin are forgotten by the first group of youngsters boarding a united states air force plane or a month's holiday in the western sector", "the children's airlift as the project is called whisks the first of a thousand youngsters to frankfurt and the start of what will be for most of the travelers their first vacation", "some will be guests of british and german families", "others stay at an american camp where there are heaping portions of food for all", "and even double helpings if there's room for it", "an act of hope and a lesson in democracy for the youngsters of a beleaguered divided berlin", "the sultan of morocco is marked for death as he rides to muslim prayer services", "now the assassination attempt", "the attacker knifes a guard but is clubbed to the ground in a frenzy frantic few seconds", "the attempt is foiled as shown in this astonishing on the spot camera record", "the agent sultan shaken but unhurt continues on to offer prayers for his deliverance", "the stricken liberian freighter greenville lashed by eighty mile an hour winds and pounded by fifty foot high waves groans helplessly in midatlantic a hazardous haven for twentysix seamen", "now a dramatic saga of brave man against the merciless sea filmed by dr walter hudson of cincinnati a passenger aboard the ile de france", "rhe liners crewman man the lifeboats in a daring attempt to rescue the greenville's crew huddled under the bridge at upper left", "the sea continues it's savage beating as one by one the men abandoned ship dropping into the icy waters to await the arrival of lifeboats", "the ship heels to the atlantic's raft", "two of her crew parish in the wild waters but twentyfour are snatched to safety and carried to the storm tossed ile de france leaving behind the greenville doomed and empty", "tiny bits of art postage stamps are exhibited in milan", "italy's president is among the visitors", "the artists design is scaled down photographically in making the engraving for the stamp", "these were designed by the late corrado mezzana a roman painter", "the careful pen work and precise detail of the stamps emphasize the artist's skill", "his big drawings lose none of their meticulous craftsmanship even when reduced many times", "this stamp honors galileo the italian astronomer", "and this one commemorates st catherine", "details are preserved in the tiny engravings from which stamps are printed", "mezzana also designed stamps for vatican city", "and while he wasn't a famous artist mezzana work is in steady demand by every italian who writes a letter", "from art in miniature to art in majestic signs and the unending pursuit of perfection is essential whether the work be large or small", "at eighty four pietro canonica's gifted hands still carve into marble qualities of firmness and determination", "marconi the inventor of the wireless was among kings and great statesman who posed for canonica", "the delicate features of women have been captured as easily by his genius", "heroic proportions mark some of his work as in this equestrian statue of a king", "and even slaves were his subjects", "this was executed in russia and tells the story of land slaves freed by czar alexander iii", "such work won canonica undying fame", "almost alive aren't they riding out of the past as the last czar of russia nicholas the second and his family", "nicholas asked canonica to execute this work at his court", "and baby hoods fleeting charm lives forever", "grand coulee dam in washington state the world's biggest concrete structure", "behind it is stored water from the mighty columbia river", "water to transform a million acres of wasteland into productive farms", "through these huge pipes water is lifted two hundred and eighty feet from the dam's reservoir to outlets", "at the head works where it pours forth at a peak rate of more than six billion gallons a day", "more than enough water if pumped at full capacity to supply every twenty four hours half a dozen cities the size of new york", "the world's largest pumps are operated at grand coulee dam by electricity to lift the water used for irrigation", "the dam itself supplies the electric current", "in fact the production of electricity is the other major purpose of the dam", "the water taken for agricultural purposes after being lifted from the lake behind the dam flows out of another reservoir to start a twisting journey of sixty miles or more through canals tunnels and siphons before it arrives on some farmers land", "into the distribution system rushes the water from its storage reservoir and on to the six thousand square miles lying in the big bend of the columbia river", "bite fed irrigation ditches carry the water through most of the area by gravity", "eighty of the landed benefits is privately owned", "water on the land and on the land crops grow again in the columbia basin", "the story of fire told through magic", "fire magic that's entertaining and educational too", "the magician is dr llewellyn heard who likes to play with fire", "a research chemist he studies oil processes and products", "some of the products this rubbery grease for instance are most unusual", "but the principle subject of his research is fire", "here a sheet of chemically treated paper begins to char when exposed to air outlining a picture of grandfather", "a chemistry lesson with an artistic flourish", "and now a combustion prank to startle even dr heard this one through our own magic camera magic", "with alcohol and chromic acid no one needs a match the combustion is spontaneous", "next sulfuric acid and sugar a compound that grows and grows and smells just terrible", "abracadabra alakazam sugar burn and sulfur bubble", "presto liquids change color before your eyes", "smoke rings not from cigarettes or cigars but phosphine which bubbles through the water and burns as soon as it reaches air a ringer in dr heard's bag of combustion tricks", "mix powdered wood with fire and it's almost explosive", "again", "but playing with fire can be hazardous", "dr heard loses more fingers that way", "oh well four are almost as good as five", "what's the basket for fire fun and facts through dr llewellyn heard's amazing fire magic", "a mid temperature is averaging one hundred and twenty degrees in the searing mojave desert", "the army puts soldiers wearing special uniforms through tests to find out how equipment and men would survive in blistering desert warfare", "a pair of very durable gis dummies joe and jake are wired for heat tests", "soldiers are wired too to study the effects of heat on light and dark uniforms", "off on a 12mile hike destination nowhere", "wires connect instruments measuring reaction to heat and exertion", "the gis are carefully checked for ill effects", "as the old army ditty goes what do you do in the infantry you march you march you march", "this is amazon annie the first atomic cannon undergoing tough maneuverability tests", "sharp turns aren't any problem for the huge weapon which fires atomic or standard shells", "it can travel thirty five miles an hour", "and despite its ponderous eighty five tons amazon annie rolls smoothly along even over bridges built for less than half its weight", "it's immense bulk is distributed on two transporters so that the canon can negotiate standard bridges", "the gunfire is an atomic show", "a mushroom of smoke rises more than twenty miles away in the first pictures released by the defense department of america's new atomic weapon in action", "testing men and equipment searching probing for new ways to bolster the nation's defense as military research goes on", "more than three hundred natives in this primitive village in british malaya are today taking their first big step toward civilization", "they've burned the remains of their settlement after harvesting all the crops they can carry and moving their houses aboard rafts", "now they're ready to sail to a new site twenty five miles away and a life they've never known before where they'll find such things as doctors schools for their children and skilled advice in farming", "but before they can reach their new home a dangerous journey faces the fleet of crudely built rafts", "due to a dry season the river labeer has been falling fast", "youths and men at that the sweeps are ready to challenge the disaster that lurks in the mud banks rocks and rapids", "still another danger lies along shore", "communists terrorists are operating in a state of calantan although it's a british protectorate", "the fleet is approaching the rapids", "aboard the rafts loose articles are safely stowed", "household goods made fast", "steadily move the hand powered sweeps", "steady eyes are on the river rapids ahead", "on shore malayan home guards constantly patrol against the communists and finally the natives near their new home where the government of calantan state has everything in readiness", "the nineteen acre site has been carved out of virgin jungle", "land for cultivation lies nearby and buildings have already been erected", "british and malayan officials inspect the village as the natives pitch in to complete the work", "modern tools and native hands make the chores go faster", "in this northeastern malayan state the natives are chiefly tillers of the soil and there's plenty of work ahead before a crop can be harvested", "but there are also new homes new experiences new sights for the natives", "from the states welfare workers come food and clothes to help get them started in their new community", "the youngsters quickly adapt themselves to their surroundings household chores are well underway", "dangers of the journey almost forgotten", "and the old settlement that house so many memories seems far away as the villagers begin their new life", "a postage stamp commemorates sagamore hill president theodore roosevelt's home", "sagamore hill the rambling frame house at oyster bay new york", "once the most famous home in america where national and international history was made by our 26th president theodore roosevelt", "he was born here in new york city in one thousand eight hundred and fifty eight", "at the age of eight he was a sickly delicate youngster", "ten years later teddy was a student at harvard", "to build his health he became a frontiersman", "and for three years a cowboy in the dakotas", "as a colonel in the rough riders which he helped to organize during the spanish american war he led the charge at san juan hill in cuba smashing the spirit of the spanish defenders", "at war's end he was elected governor of new york", "in one thousand nine hundred and one at forty three he became america's youngest president", "and later the first chief executive to fly", "with a patriotic passion he dynamically championed the american way", "now from the news magazine library most complete library of news films in the world come unforgettable motion pictures of his later life", "a month after leaving office teddy was on the high seas bound for africa and the big game that stocks the dark continent", "he spent ten months among the natives on a dangerous jungle safari", "returning home he found europe drifting toward world war i", "when america entered he hurried to the white house to pledge his support to president wilson in the critical days that lay ahead", "americans everywhere across the country joined in exciting spontaneous tributes to the stars and stripes", "the former president tirelessly calling the nation to arms toured the country at giant liberty loan rallies he pleaded for every americans support and was joined by the immortal french actress sarah bernhardt fiery and vigorous at seventy two", "but the old soldier shown here visiting the famous rainbow division in training wanted to do more", "he volunteered to raise a division of his own and serve as its commander in europe", "the offer however could not be accepted", "he received his setback graciously continuing to tour american camps stirring the troops that turned out by the hundreds of thousands to hear his voice", "with the armistice he returned to sagamore hill and the neighbors who dropped by often to chat", "teddy was never too busy to talk with them", "from one of those talks now being rerecorded from an old phonograph cylinder you will hear the only record of theodore roosevelt's voice believed in existence", "the soundtrack is at left an actual photograph of his voice", "listen", "i wish to see you boys in the same way i'd expect any one of you to act in a football game", "in other words don't flinch don't foul and hit the line hard for a quarter of a century teddy roosevelt and sagamore hill symbolized a vigorous bustling nation", "today the house and the empty porch with their many memories are a national shrine a place of pilgrimage for americans who cherish the concepts of truth justice and courage to which theodore roosevelt offered a lifetime of devotion", "in the sitting room it seems only yesterday that tea was being served by the gracious edith kermit roosevelt", "the nursery like all nurseries remains cluttered with the toys of the late president's four sons and two daughters", "there are teddy bears of course for the toy was named after the popular teddy with his official blessings", "to the dining room downstairs came leaders upstate during the seven years that sagamore hill served as america's summer white house", "the silk bedspread was a gift from the empress of china", "and here is teddy's shaving stand with brush and mug", "the trophy room his favorite room the mounting board for the trophies of hunting expeditions and mementos of his strenuous life", "theodore roosevelt one of the most versatile men ever to become president surveys the fruits of a lifetime of rich adventure and the amazing assortment of gifts showered on him by admirers the world over", "here too draped over the axle of his plane is the flag from the grave of his youngest son quentin killed in france in one thousand nine hundred and eighteen", "the rough riders anthem recall with the daring exploits of colonel teddy a beloved figure", "his many trophies are tests to his matchless marksmanship as a big game hunter", "off the trophy room is the library stocked with the books teddy read unceasingly or wrote himself and where he worked while at sagamore hill", "tirelessly he toiled at this desk until death in one thousand nine hundred and nineteen stilled his fighting spirit", "but the rich legacy he left america lives on", "the inspiring story of a frail sickly youngster who made himself strong by determined effort and who dedicated his every energy to his country", "on a stone nearby his creed keep your eyes on the stars and keep your feet on the ground the qualities of theodore roosevelt are the qualities which preserve our nation", "love for people faith in life and above all love of country"], "name": ["NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3_DOT_flac_00005.flac", "NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3_DOT_flac_00006.flac", "NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3_DOT_flac_00007.flac", "NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3_DOT_flac_00008.flac", "NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3_DOT_flac_00009.flac", "NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3/NewsMaga00_3_DOT_flac_00010.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "Peters_Township_Council_-_November_12_2012.flac", "identifier": "Peters_Township_Council_-_November_12_2012", "text_document_id": "Peters_Township_Council_-_November_12_2012.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [3074, 974, 1499, 1016, 1647, 1390, 1340, 1620, 1380, 1510, 15227, 4944, 1333, 5653, 2653, 991, 2562, 833, 1941, 1676, 833, 2673, 5408, 7550, 6150, 4060, 6140, 2330, 17230, 3400, 12580, 833, 3403, 952, 833, 9287, 2980, 4363, 3657, 8110, 6210, 1630, 1950, 13910, 21090, 11182, 12738, 5993, 5957, 5640, 9130, 3723, 3888, 4051, 1287, 5786, 1754, 833, 833, 3024, 1500, 1931, 4874, 1645, 3969, 2241, 833, 2817, 1199, 8391, 3084, 4623, 3167, 6083, 4250, 2247, 940, 3390, 2183, 2880, 4610, 9263, 8190, 6933, 2707, 1587, 3209, 1061, 833, 1707, 2553, 6587, 1530, 6160, 2081, 1236, 2488, 2700, 7660, 3523, 2480, 4980, 7920, 2650, 5000, 8419, 7199, 3843, 11626, 11894, 8513, 2800, 9830, 1520, 2230, 3483, 3237, 2900, 3883, 3360, 10220, 3940, 1091, 9769, 10080, 3800, 7320, 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2250, 5130, 4885, 6053, 6938, 9193, 14697, 6440, 2380, 2109, 888, 2440, 4613, 2841, 6034, 4810, 5610, 2803, 2150, 1030, 5540, 6323, 5100, 6343, 7020, 2007, 4616, 4853, 1493, 2479, 2280, 5460, 1527, 1596, 1530, 13880, 2060, 4190, 6640, 2900, 1680, 2430, 2050, 1990, 1700, 2550, 7481, 2217, 1050, 5293, 7069], "label": ["for monday november 12th two thousand and twelve", "yes", "mr sylvestry your roll please", "mr berquist here", "mr arcurie here", "mr ball present", "mr steigel present", "mr axton here", "mrs merrill present", "and mr lewis will not be here", "okay can we ask everybody to stand and join us saying the pledge of allegiance i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all", "next item on the agenda will be special reports next will be approval of minutes", "i already talked about that we do this every time", "next will be approval of the minutes for the regular council meeting of october 22nd two thousand and twelve", "i move that the minutes be approved as submitted", "second", "it's been moved and seconded and all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "with this the motion carries", "okay now we'll get to the special reports", "there are none", "there are none next item will be audience comments", "it'll be an opportunity for members of the audience to address council on a nonagenda item limited to five minutes", "anybody in the audience wish to address council at this time okay seeing we have no unfinished business", "particular visitors say for gasoline and diesel fuel has been a three shape purchasing council", "as we discussed at the last meeting there was an issue with getting a performance bond", "yes defer that was the low bidder is unwilling to provide performance bond", "they because of their profit margin", "and so that would give us the ability to disqualify them and go to the next low bidder which is our current carrier based on our total gallons anticipated for the year that the total difference in price is five and thirty five cents", "so yeah it's negligible", "so we're recommending that we i move that we disqualify reed oil and from the prior award and that we award the bid for gasoline to glassmere", "second", "okay and in second and all those in favor please say aye aye", "motion carries", "new business", "first line will be a presentation by the mont rochelle council to deep bridge options cross valid recruit here good evening", "first of all a brief status of where the bridges are", "valley brook number one we've got dep approval october 17th", "we went out to bid up october 29th", "the bids are due november 30th and we hope to have a notice to proceed for the valley brook bridge number one sometime shortly after the holidays", "the primary reason for the meeting tonight is valley brook bridge number two is the second one we'll be building", "we have a grant for the design", "we haven't heard yet from dc on whether we got it", "we put a design a grant in to lsa for construction money but early on ten years ago or so when we showed plans to council we showed valley brook bridge number two as being a girder design", "we've learned since that time that a trust bridge either a prefabricated trust or potentially a reuse of a design that hdr engineering has offered to the mont rochelle council as a design we could possibly use would be the more costeffective solution by about two or three hundred thousand dollars", "and that's significantly enough different enough from what we showed you back then that we wanted to give you some idea of what it might look like and make sure there are no serious objections to it and get your approval to proceed along these lines", "these are some conceptual renderings that jon koloski from hdr who's here with us tonight put together to show us what the bridge might look like", "if it were essentially the same design as the clifton road bridge up in bethel park", "it would either be something like this or a one hundred and sixty foot this is a two hundred foot bridge", "it would either be this or one hundred and sixty foot prefabricated design which would be a little bit smaller than this", "jon came along in case there were questions on the design and why this is superior to the girders that i already showed you before", "can you drive a sherman tank across it that's the criteria for me bout", "is that true h10 jon h10 maybe h15", "west valley brook right this is the west valley brook right yeah yes", "that's a long bridge", "how long is the one across in bethel park the two hundred foot", "that's it that's it", "that's the bridge", "that's the bridge", "that's the design that they've offered to let us reuse if it makes sense", "it's costeffective yeah", "it's not very attractive", "what's your definition of attractive the one on clifton road is in my opinion not attractive", "that's fine i just saying", "i mean but who cares i'm not going to be walking across it", "if it saves you two or three hundred thousand dollars", "okay", "it's a bridge i don't see anything wrong with it", "jon what's this bridge rated", "objections no if there are serious objections in this approval to continue with our design and along these lines would be what i'm looking for yes", "might be h15 i'd have to check", "i believe this is about an h15 your smaller ambulance for sure", "i'm not sure about your bigger truck we'd have to check", "give me a number on it jon what was it what was the number and the weight and age an h15 it's the highway", "fifteen ten thirty ton thirty ton yeah", "well that'll handle anything we put on them", "okay", "but the only reason for that is maintenance vehicles", "it's just it's a minimum design load", "infrequent no big deal correct infrequent", "what ages our rebound bridge i don't know i'm not sure", "well it was supposed to be designed for five ton but it's much more than that because of the changes penddot required", "you're going to have to close valley brook road to put that up there'll probably be traffic restrictions at some point yes", "it's a shame it couldn't go on at the same time as the intersection project because it'll be closed then", "when is that happening it's supposed to happen next year", "when was that now wait a minute", "if we had the money in our accounts i want to hear this answer myself mark", "i want to hear the answer to myself", "it's going to be", "it's going to be a twoyear project though", "it won't be complete until two thousand and fifteen", "if cards fall the way we hope they will we could potentially be doing at the same time which would be ideal", "i can't guarantee that of course", "we'll make them cards fall people keep your fingers crossed for lsa and dcr to come through", "well it sounds like you got your marching orders", "okay thank you", "that would be a great addition by the way so", "it's needed for safety precautions", "next line will be you know what we saw the picture too there that it was taking all the cars parked along the highway", "i went by there the other day there is like twenty cars along there", "someone's going to get hurt michael", "we could request it be a no parking area okay", "next line will be the final plat approval in valley manor phase four and division two for san don and don hazel and andrew and to meet the crew", "we'll discussed this i believe back in the summer", "so i have open space to put together what's mentioned", "i believe the counsel gave stop marching orders going forward to work out a deal with the three parties", "yes the amount of open space for the crew property would be fifty eight acres", "and for the hazel property would be two hundred and thirty two acres", "and the funds would go into the open space fund to be used for recreation capital improvements or land acquisition", "for the public can you just state what the fee was the fee is it was based on our costs of appraisals for a park property that we purchased and updated", "but for the fifty eight acre parcel it's one thousand one hundred and sixty and then for the other parcel it's five thousand six hundred and fifty eight", "i move we approve the revised plan", "second second it any other comments at this time counsel any audience comments okay all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "opposed nay nay", "so like four to two in favor", "okay third item would be reapproval plato plat", "venetia point for the martin brothers incorporated", "in drawings by cobalt professional services dated october 30th two thousand and twelve", "this plan was approved in two thousand and nine", "and at the time they were the reason the revised plan was submitted was they wanted to increase the number of units and make smaller units", "so they felt it would be more marketable since the existing units were not", "i remember that they weren't selling", "what did they do not record it they did not record it because at the time there was an issue with tap and availability and then it just kind of fell between the cracks", "and so they came in for a building permit last month or last week and that's when we were informed but until it's recorded we can't issue a building permit", "so they're asking for reapproval based on all the same conditions", "but did the other one expire after certain after ninety days if you don't record it then it expires", "well i'll move that we approve the venetia point revision subject to the conditions set forth in the august 25th two thousand and nine letter of i assume it was a view mr sylvestry and payment of the fees for plan approval", "second", "okay", "it's seconded are there any other comments from counsel what are they here yes", "what's the issue back there as to why it's taking so long first concert cobalt professional services", "the issue was part of the requirements were approval by peter's creek sanitary authority", "at the time they were under cap", "i couldn't get the planning module approved and it just that was it", "and then the market fell out and everything just everything just stopped", "it's my understanding that there was some question about the design that you proposed to peter's creek sanitary no", "related to the way that no the laterals were going to be fed in i'm sorry related to the way the laterals were going to be fed in whether you could share them between two buildings", "that's a separate question", "right now there are nine additional units proposed and there are nine additional laterals being proposed hmm hmm", "there's a lot of rock on that site", "hmm hmm", "and the question you're alluding to is down the road whether or not we have to make nine cuts across them", "i mean cause the rocks it's solid rock", "i mean we may have to shoot it", "so if we can take two laterals or bring two laterals into one crossing that was our question", "right now we're looking at nine laterals nine additional", "we'll break into the main and that's where we stand right now", "when you say you're going to additional walkon are you starting to get some interest back there i don't know if necessarily i can't say that there's any but they're looking at things are picking up a little bit", "so they're going good", "go in yeah", "i'd like to see that get done", "which set of buildings are you planning to do next i can't answer but i mean i don't know what the set or what going to done", "well he got it he must've applied for something right this would be", "these six units here", "these three units are available", "okay i see hmm hmm", "these six", "okay thank you", "thank you thank you", "any other questions discussion okay it's been moved and seconded all those in favor say aye", "aye", "opposed okay carry six zero", "next item will be a committed to establish a sewage management district for peter's creek one or two on a", "peter's creek is working on an extension of bower hill sewers", "this was something that they applied for in two thousand and ten through the local through the county lsa program", "and it did not occur", "they're reapplying for this", "one of the conditions that will be that is being made by the det is that if within five years of approval if the sewers are not extended then the township would have to develop a sewage management district for on lot systems requiring inspections and recordings", "we already have this on the books for unconventional on lot systems", "and we had to do a similar thing when the value drive sewer project was done", "so this is very similar to that", "there's a draft letter in your docket", "this is where the sewers would go", "and the long parallel bower hill road here's venetia road bower hill", "so this area here right now is not sewer", "and so it would pick up these homes on this end", "what's it going to get done it's supposed to yeah", "they've been trying to do this for awhile", "you know kind of also got held up because the issues with it the corrective action plan", "but now that it's part of the comprehensive plan for the five hundred and thirty seven district", "and it's a priority for the authorities", "like what section of bower hill is that this is venetia row right here", "okay and this is bower hill", "this is santa woods coming up in the back end there", "i'm with you yeah the only thing i would ask i think that we should go ahead with this", "in the letter you may want to check the second sentence of the first paragraph", "i think you missed a phrase or a noun in there somewhere", "second okay", "within five years i'm thinking you mean the township will then or somebody will then implement a sewage management plan", "that's basically right along the township border there michael", "hmm yes", "the red line is you know there's a touch of land", "well close to it yeah", "damn close yeah the creek is the township line", "so what do you need from us counsel would need to agree to commit to doing a sewage management on lot management plan if the sewers are not constructed within five years", "what kind of sewers do they have now well those lots are on lot systems", "so septic systems same amounts whatever that involves", "you know you would have we would have to do inspections the routine inspections", "they would have to they'd be required to do routine pumping of the septic tanks making repairs things like that", "one moved that the township agreed to establish a sewage management district for the bower hill road area as indicated it's just been moved and seconded", "and do we have any other discussion on this are we actually forming a district or is this no", "we would form a district if in five years if the sewers are not extended", "okay and that's what the motion is right", "okay", "is there anything else all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "opposed anyone heard three people aye", "okay i'm sorry", "motion carries i have six zero", "okay", "next line will be an authorization to utilize the services of energy for procurement as a purchase of electricity and natural gas", "mr lauer your business yes", "we went out and solicited proposals from a number of firms for service and energy preference for the township", "we have had our experience with on the main energy", "and if pleased with their service they're also one of the largest energy brokers in the state of pennsylvania", "and what that allows us to do as a small energy user is to have our loads aggregated with others to get us the best possible price", "so we're recommending that we once again enter into an agreement with ondemand energy to work as a broker for the township", "alright i move that we authorize you to lock in a price through ondemand energy when you believe it's optimal", "was that really what you're asking are you asking you to utilize", "we're asking you to enter into a contract with them but what we will in fact do is that at the point in time when on demand makes a recommendation to us that we'll be able to walk in", "so we're kind of putting the cart before the horse here", "well should we do it all at one time we can actually by the time they say this is the time to do it we need to", "one we need the authority to enter into", "right i knew that i moved that you're authorized to continue with on demand energy", "period", "okay", "and we will enter into a contract at the optimal time for", "well no no that's what going to be my next motion", "as soon as we get through this one", "i do have a question", "okay i do want to second that", "yeah okay", "after the second i do have a question", "on the chart you gave us it looks like high voltage is a lower rate", "so what is your am i reading that incorrectly or are you no you're not", "but one of the things that what this really gets down to and what i make issue in the report is that there are limited number of markets for electricity and natural gas", "so it really doesn't you know it gets down to this question of price in part but it also gets down to this question of service", "and one of the things that high voltage does not have is a huge portfolio", "and that's what you get with", "and so then instead of us entering into our contract electric contract on our own what on demand we'll do is aggregate are others which allow us to get the kind of pricing a large volume customer would get as opposed to relying strictly on our amount of electric credential gas", "so what you're basically saying is the big cause of the options on demand has you anticipate that our rates will in fact be lower so we will not be losing money", "right", "which is a good explanation that people would like to hear", "thank you hmm hmm", "it was made and seconded the requests", "are there any concerns i think we were wondering actually under the natural gas what is does that unit dth", "stack of therms", "okay alright", "well on that note all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "opposed motion carries six zero", "i'm going to make a motion that you're authorized that the township management authorized to lock in the prices when they feel that it's an optimum price", "second", "okay this has been made a second and it as well", "any discussion on that item okay all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "opposed that also carries six zero", "item number six payroll and bills which i reviewed and will recommend that they be approved i'll make that motion", "second", "any discussion all those in favor please say aye aye", "opposed those carry six zero", "correspondence anything you want to hid on there's a letter from the quail run homeowner's association board", "and they're asking for the township to make one section of quail run road from sandpiper here to scott on the lower side a no parking district", "it's exactly the high side of the road", "this is the road there", "but this area in red they're asking that that side of the road be no parking and that they would only have parking on one side of the road", "what's it it's both sides now yes", "i guess because of the number of units they've been having issues with cars parking on both sides and trying to get through and that's the main road into the plan", "and so they're requesting to that we adopted an ordinance where we were in the process of preparing an update to our motor vehicle ordinance", "so this would be added to that if council concurs", "mr sylvestry is this related to too few parking spaces for guests or is it just the convenient thing that people are doing i can't answer that", "i mean we in this plan this was one of our first big townhouse plans", "i think we have some additional parking but it's not at the we did not have a requirement that was specific in the ordinance back then", "so that could have been a problem back then", "because there is parking in this area", "there's some parking over here but i don't recall that there's very many separate parking lots in that development", "and that was i think we adopted our we changed our ordinance after this plan to create additional parking for guests", "well the reason i'm asking is that we just approved finish a point that continue on and to mitigate that in the future perhaps we need to look at additional spaces for that type of well venetia point does have a requirement for additional parking", "i know but they really have too many from what i can recall from it", "four yeah that's not very many", "we need a motion to approved this or", "we just needed indication council would like us to include that in our update ordinance that we're preparing for the next meeting", "i think i'd like to have more information", "okay as to like what is the available parking because if it's because you know they have a lot of guest and there's no place to park they're just going to park someplace else", "you'll cause a problem someplace else in the plan", "i think you know what i'm saying i mean shouldn't we know exactly whether it's what mrs merrill said is it visitors or is it people parking there because it's in front of their house and then they're you know they don't want to pull it in their driveway or whatnot", "i mean i think before we that that's a long area of roadway there", "i mean how long is that do you know how long that is it's probably a couple thousand feet", "see that's what i saying", "it's also a narrow road that's the other problem", "i mean i don't have a problem i've been up there", "i mean it is narrow but i mean i don't know if we want to you know maybe we'd just be pushing it off of there to some other road that this is going to be even worse", "what seen from the now see the road is standard size it's twenty four feet", "oh it's twenty four feet what's seen from the pictures that what's happening is the way people are parking", "and it's really creating sort of like a", "like a maze a maze that people can't get through", "and it creates because of the elevation line of sight issues and go and when they go around the curves are up the hems", "well i mean if you think it's okay well god", "no i'm just i think there's a problem behind the issue", "but i think that right now they're looking for some sort of way to make improve safety", "so from a safety perspective i think we should look at what can be done in that particular area", "i mean obviously if there's a safety issue i don't have any problem with what they want to do but i mean to just ban the whole side of that street i don't know", "what do you think i think just looking at the picture and the arc that's there it did just appear to be a safety issue", "and anytime you park on the street it's always", "yeah", "you'd do the same thing in granting more than one side parking there", "well do you know whether or not the association like had the homeowners i don't know input to do that i mean you know we do that i don't want you know fifty quail run residents up there screaming why'd you do it we could we can ask those questions and get back to you", "i would think that i'd rather do", "i think that's proof", "just restricting parking on one side of the street", "right", "the letter came from the condominium association", "yes", "tom frank president so", "plan's been there for thirty years so i think we can probably put it off two more weeks well that's i think", "i think i'd want to have more information", "not that i'm not inclined to do it", "i know that it is sort of a maze up there sometimes but i'd rather get it right than have to redo it", "okay", "thank you", "they also have correspondents reports there are no reports", "how about their chesapeake application yeah that's required by law", "anytime there's under the new act anytime there's a well any adjacent community must notify the adjacent community", "this well has actually been under construction last summer", "ed and i were both viewing it when it was being fracked but i guess they're restarting again with that new well what's that it's a new well", "new wells are proposed", "yeah but it's on the same site", "is that the one it's up behind that hill there like across from tracks no no no this is in nottingham", "you have to go", "it's very hard to find", "it's in a big ball", "it's off of sugar run", "oh okay", "sugar running off of cooper is that correct off of cooper right", "miscellaneous yes", "fuel tax we have the audit from auditor general's office on two years of liquid fuels tax", "there were no exceptions", "there was minor adjustment in the balance but there's no action required by council", "it's just there for information purposes", "the other item is there's a zoning hearing board two zoning hearing board cases coming up to determine if the council has much to take a position on them", "both are signed variances", "one is dealing with an electronic sign and we adopted a new ordinance earlier this year that limits it to one color", "the council did act allow you to have like pictures on it", "they requested a variance to be able to have multicolored pictures", "this is a sample no", "of the sign that they're proposing", "no that seems like a lot of signage for that building", "is it between the building and the monument is that within the square footage ed the building signage is under our square footage that we allow", "the freestanding sign is a little over but they're kind of nonconforming in that", "they're just using the same sign that ethan allen used to have there by eighteen square feet", "they're allowed seventy but this sign would be eighty eight square feet", "can i ask you a question the applicant she owned the property prior to the ordinance", "that's one of her she did not", "oh she did not so her argument is that she was in the process of purchasing in may of two thousand and eleven and we adopted our ordinance revision in july of two thousand and eleven", "and so she was in the process", "she was in the process", "did she testify at the hearing on that we haven't had any hearing yet", "we passed the ordinance no", "we would have advertised that ordinance before we adopted it", "we had several people i remember", "i guess my issue is that she's trying to say that it's required as for certain vendors", "if she would have brought that to my attention to any of our attention at the hearing i think i would have been much less inclined to vote for the order", "and the question before council is do you want to take a position recommendation to the zoning hearing yes we have to enforce our ordinance", "i don't like those multicolored signs anyway so and i've been on record all along", "i don't want us to get like you know mcknight road", "so if we have an ordinance and it provides for one color then it's one color period", "what good's having an ordinance if everybody's going to come in here with you know well this happened or that happened no", "that's the ordinance", "that's what we approved", "that's what they're stuck with", "works for me", "that's hard to argue with", "i really don't have a problem with it", "we spent a lot of time coming up with that and now we're going to change it nah", "well i think the other issue is is if that signage is actually an excess of what the standard is she's asking actually for two things that would be a variance", "well i think she's grandfathered in on one", "one's grandfathered in on the size of the sign but not digital sign", "i would argue that the outside frame of that sign was standing as it was but that s and p floors above the digital she could have moderated the size of the rest of that", "because right now it's empty", "there's nothing in there", "yeah i know but if we're going to take the position she can't have the color sign i'm not going to make her put smaller numbers smaller letters", "i'm saying that i'm saying it's two things in my viewpoint", "and i don't disagree that if we created the ordinance we need to support the ordinance that we agreed to", "but that is an electronic sign that the the color board the color board below is just an example of what will now be changing", "yes", "but even allen didn't have they didn't have that", "but her requirement to is blue background red and or amber colored zone", "and she wants to be able to display colors", "like it shows on", "yeah what i'm asking is it says a requirement to be a franchisee for this company requires a display of this particular", "that's one of her arguments", "but it doesn't have to be electronic", "that's true", "so she did confirm so she could put that sign on the other side of the building", "oh i see", "once that awning of the entrance right no you can't advertise things like carpet plump like product she markets at the location", "she can advertise the name of her business on her building oh", "not products she sells on the building", "so she couldn't put that sign over on that where's that other picture she could have it in the window", "huh according to our ordinance that colored sign could be in the window could be in the window", "she is asking for a sign over her entrance", "that's another part of her application", "yeah i saw that somewhere on entrance", "i mean to park up there on the awning side", "that's not as good you guys have the next picture is that picture oh i'm sorry", "wake up mike come on i know", "that is her other at the game when she wants", "that she wants now she couldn't put that side over on the other side of the", "no", "well does that meet our ordinance could she ask for a variance over there to put that sign to put what sign the one that says carpet whatever", "no no", "well she could ask for a variance but", "my point is she saying she needs that colored sign because she's a franchisees for this company", "if i understand is correct that is correct", "and she wants to put it on the electronic board and we're saying electronic boards we own allow colored but one color", "right", "and what i'm saying so i'm with frank", "i don't want to change ordinance but she could also ask for variance to just put that sign somewhere else in the building and not be on the electronic board", "and we might be willing to pass that is what", "kind of like mattress discounters remember has a big service on in the window", "yeah yeah", "and you just said", "imagine this company had nineteen little placards the other weekend", "so you get like mr lewis your cotton placards", "just letting you know that", "there's options available for her to display", "that's what i'm trying to get to", "there are options it doesn't have to be electronic", "it could be another option somewhere to fulfill her obligation to her franchisor", "that is correct", "she's a franchisee it would be the franchisor", "or or", "right that's all i'm getting to", "i mean because you don't want to restrict any franchisee from fulfilling his franchisor obligations", "right", "so do i have any views i'm getting confuse jon", "do i have some directions send the position to the zoning hearing board for council", "our position would be follow the ordnance", "following the ordinance and to encourage her to", "but we're willing to look at other options for her to fulfill her franchisor obligation", "okay", "there's a principle and then there's a second one", "what's the second one wow", "the second one that hurt me", "is for sun chevrolet whoops", "they're asking for variance to put whoops whoops", "events", "okay", "what does it look like signs signs everywhere signs", "that's why i'm telling you guys", "walking of the scenery", "you got zoning here and board member her tonight", "he's not allowed to speak on us", "just soak it all in jon", "okay", "they're asking for a variance for to have two signs because now that similar to what was approved for thousand where southfield lincoln where there's the main sign on the office side there's a little smaller sign that basically it that's it", "two signs on one facade", "which they had previous correct", "and what's the total square footage does it still meet our requirements less than our requirements see i i don't have a problem with that", "i don't have a problem with it either", "i think the other side because they're not digital signs", "that's not a standard chevy that's not standard chevy building", "is that another franchisee thing it is a franchisee thing", "okay anything else on this line yes there's a request by mr albert cashier public works", "american public works association is looking to do a fundraiser with a bunch of public works departments", "similar to what you see in that intersection like penn state or the fire department to raise funds for hurricane sandy relief", "with mr albert cashier proposing is to be able to go out probably this weekend and have a couple of trucks at the corner and be out there with some volunteers to solicit funds from patsy motors", "but you're saying that he's donating this to salvation army not to red cross no salvation army", "well i'm good with salvation army", "you need to motion to get further consensus", "consensus i would agree", "i passed out a couple of things", "the gas impact fee you said you did get a final number yes", "it was two hundred and fifty nine thousand and some change", "it was basically about two thousand less than what the original ones said it wasn't bad", "at the next meeting we have a public budget hearing or budget workshop next monday", "we've also advertised a special meeting to talk about healthcare", "we have to give the answer to nit by the 20th", "we weren't ready for tonight", "so we're going to have that", "and we just wanna let you know that rick enscoe from enscoe long will be there in addition", "the meeting with verizon to look at valley brook is on the 20th at nine am tuesday", "we did advertise a public hearing for the next meeting for a budget amendment", "it is basically technical amendments to put us in compliance before the end of the year for the two thousand and twelve budget", "and i also passed out a list of board appointments the council boards that are rough", "i got a double check etb", "i just received the email from mrs zachary", "i think her terms is fine cause she's doesn't want reappointment because she's moving out of the township", "i'll double check that one", "who was that michael kim zachary oh", "this is the board appointments", "we'll get you a current attendance on these for next meeting", "any other agenda items that's all i have", "i have two things", "general information", "the high school recently participated in an event called lived up which i might be saying incorrectly where they created a video to be posted in a competition with other high schools", "the entire school participated", "and there's the potential for the school to win five thousand based on votes", "so if anybody out there would like to go online and look at this lived up and vote for the high school i'm sure that will be very appreciative", "it's great a little program", "they had to they were given a song", "they had to lip sync so to speak to it", "pan through the school and do different things", "it's really very nicely done", "so i would encourage you to do that", "we know how to get it's on the internet", "i don't have the actual login but i think if you went to peters township high school they have a link to it from the high school", "yes the patch mic the patch mic", "yes", "and then the only other thing i wanted to say is happy veteran's day to everyone and thank you for your service", "any items for next agenda if there's not meeting's adjourned"], "name": ["Peters_Township_Council_-_November_12_2012/Peters_Township_Council_-_November_12_2012/Peters_Township_Council_-_November_12_2012_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Peters_Township_Council_-_November_12_2012/Peters_Township_Council_-_November_12_2012/Peters_Township_Council_-_November_12_2012_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018.HD.flac", "identifier": "Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018", "text_document_id": "Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018.HD.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [5793, 1070, 1730, 1970, 1993, 833, 876, 1583, 3000, 7200, 3795, 5000, 1850, 7665, 1665, 3954, 3167, 3932, 10549, 1880, 2350, 5483, 2903, 3950, 1593, 6963, 15380, 6253, 9943, 19263, 12313, 8710, 7226, 3577, 7090, 5960, 1110, 5443, 10010, 7013, 2000, 5490, 1883, 13973, 12490, 8263, 2000, 9290, 8120, 6750, 14133, 13360, 2630, 1263, 4100, 3010, 25133, 2790, 9493, 4610, 3553, 8800, 1180, 7560, 4753, 10980, 3440, 2120, 1670, 833, 999, 4141, 4343, 6660, 7940, 1650, 6540, 7680, 6993, 1470, 3520, 7710, 4550, 4203, 1617, 5190, 4660, 3430, 11140, 3063, 7073, 4044, 900, 8480, 3550, 12730, 8280, 4290, 4260, 7803, 10540, 10320, 3680, 1290, 3390, 1300, 1625, 3762, 2000, 7220, 9530, 1380, 833, 1867, 3720, 833, 1133, 5654, 7455, 833, 833, 7769, 840, 1515, 1768, 833, 897, 1600, 2000, 4462, 1700, 6223, 10173, 5468, 7012, 1870, 4762, 15460, 14970, 4556, 5370, 8643, 5593, 7190, 4570, 14660, 3843, 5640, 3860, 2523, 4983, 6880, 13266, 3807, 9796, 9603, 23563, 4010, 21523, 5913, 2481, 8232, 2176, 5240, 3030, 5340, 4654, 11480, 3700, 5580, 8800, 1010, 7350, 3520, 1876, 1780, 2620, 833, 833, 5520, 1010, 8190, 5760, 1073, 1500, 8910, 4913, 5262, 2670, 5453, 6903, 5277, 2710, 2900, 2250, 36203, 1954, 1063, 1950, 1670, 2637, 11393, 2063, 4668, 14689, 3081, 2689], "label": ["i'd like to call to order the regular meeting of the peters township planning commission for july 12th two thousand and eighteen", "ed roll call", "mr mills will not be here", "mr magrino will not be here", "mr kartofilis here", "mr wylie here", "mr smith here", "mr tselepis here", "mr verlato here", "can i get a motion to approve the minutes of the june 12th two thousand and eighteen regular meeting all in question to approve those minutes", "all in favor aye", "reports and correspondences", "site planssubdivisions filed", "we have one subdivision file for review and it's the sarchick i'm not sure if i'm pronouncing that correctly", "it's sarchick plan of lots", "it's also a one lot subdivision on bower hill road", "so we'll be dealing with that tonight", "any other items to add to the agenda no", "any items or comments on items not on the agenda good evening gentlemen", "first of all my name is monica marrow", "i live at one hundred and five walnut drive", "i'd like to thank you all for what you do the service you provide as planning commission is invaluable", "i am a council person as you all know", "i am here as a council person but i am speaking solely for myself", "i represent no one but myself", "i wanted to say a few words about the plans that have been coming up through the planning commission and passed on to council for approval", "most specifically i wanted to share what may be deemed frustration with many of the plans that come to council with requests for variances and special conditions that deviate from our newly approved zoning ordinances", "township spent a considerable amount of money and time to do the comprehensive plan and the zoning ordinances", "they've been published yet almost every residential development or any commercial endeavor comes forward seeking some deviation or variance", "now we all know we live in pennsylvania and there are hills and dales and creeks and challenging topography and we all know that peters has relied on revenue from development both residential and commercial for a long time to support our public infrastructure and our public services", "we also know that much of the remaining property in peters township that has potential for development also has the probability of difficulty", "i think we're pushing the envelope every time a development comes forward and two recent issues made me feel compelled to come and talk to you", "again this is my personal opinion and only my view of how things are and it is not critical to you", "it is an observation of what i see happening", "the first example with all due respect to mr hoskins who has developed some wonderful plans in the township", "the most recent phase for hamlets of springdale to me is pushing the envelope", "it's a bit of a following", "it sits on a mound and the developer requested a loop road to make that workable", "that design was a request to compromise our standards when in fact there were ways that he potentially could compromise on his own", "fewer lots maybe a different design or maybe not going into that part of the property", "i wasn't really in favor of the modification", "i thought it was a creative solution to a problem that he created by himself", "the second is the waters project", "both the parking spaces which are too small in the garage and my recent realization that they have a four story frontage on east mcmurray road were very frustrating to me", "i do have to ask did you all realize that the garage was exposed and that in fact there would be four stories at east mcmurray because i didn't when i looked at the plan", "and to me that is a direct violation of the intent of what council stated when we talked about the town center plan", "it's water under the bridge in some respects", "the design said it's been approved but that is something that i think should really not have been allowed or it should have been brought to our attention", "when it came to council it was about the variance for the subdivision for the right of way so that they could have a turning lane", "and oh by the way there were parking space issues i don't agree with them being smaller", "i don't agree when i realized that the garage was exposed so that's one of the reasons i voted that we approved this subdivision but i am hopeful that the zoning commission will not approve that variance", "i'm personally ashamed that i missed that because i do try to be very diligent about what i look at and what i read and take into consideration how it affects the residents and how it matches up with the ordinances", "maybe some people think i'm anal i don't know", "i think i'm doing my job", "anyway in conclusion i again want to thank you for what you do", "i realize it's a lot to look at and a lot of work", "i just want to express my sentiments that i would really hope that the planning commission would be a little more critical look at plans a little more critically when they present requests for deviation and modifications that maybe could be avoided if the developer would make would not have tried to push the envelope and put as much as they could into a small piece of property", "if you would like to say anything in response that's fine", "i just thought that i needed to come and again thank you for what you do and just ask for better scrutiny of what's coming before us", "i'll let planning commissioners respond first but i need to respond as well", "i'll let you respond first if you have any response", "first of all i want to say with respect to hoskins hamlet six it was a deviation from our subdivision ordinance", "we didn't update that", "we were deviating from a rule of six hundred feet that's been in our ordinance for thirty years and is outdated", "there were no variances granted on the conservation residential zoning", "there have been no variances granted on conservation or mixed residential developments that have come in here that have been recently approved one", "two the waters", "it's not four stories", "it's valley brook road not east", "i'm sorry you're right", "i apologize", "at valley brook road you see two stories", "the fourth story is set back fifty plus feet", "it's that whole ordinance working together that you need to consider", "it's not a four story building because it doesn't meet the definition of a four story building and it's not going to be four stories right on valley brook road", "it will be two", "the fourth story is set way back so you didn't miss anything", "well i think probably what i'm saying to you is that the view of the facade is not what i anticipated it to be", "i don't think i was alone in realizing that the garage level was exposed", "it had to be well", "it's only exposed along valley brook road", "the ninety of it is not exposed therefore it does not count as a story under the definition of a story", "that is exactly the idea that we can explain away anything", "well i'm not explain away anything", "it's the ordinance", "you can't make developers do things that are not in the ordinance", "you make them comply with the ordinance and there they did", "there's no deviation relative to the height of the building", "they are requesting the variance for the nine by eighteen versus ten by twenty parking in the garage which in my mind is de minimus", "we made a recommendation in favor", "to do a mix and not require all the parking lots to be what is it ten by twenty ten by twenty", "they could have some of them ten by twenty but where i think it was pillars", "structures", "impeding the size of each space because if you make those nine by eighteen about half to balance would be ten by twenty", "see and it's my understanding the developer was not willing to make that", "they are requesting the full i think it's eighty plus spaces in that garage to be nine by eighteen because they want a certain ratio of parking for the residents that will be residing there", "it's even questionable in our zoning ordinance whether that ten by twenty applies to private parking in a garage", "we don't regulate parking in a multifamily town home", "we don't regulate parking in a single family home in a garage", "it's even questionable whether that ten by twenty applies and we took a conservative approach and made them go through the mayor", "you know mr zuk i appreciate your explanation and i understand that you're defending the fact that waters is following what you perceive as the ordinances", "my personal comment was just that the side of the building and the way it will appear is not what i read it to be", "and i did not realize personally that the garage was exposed", "that's all i'm asking", "that to me it looks like it will be four stories at valley brook", "you're right i misstated", "the perception", "you do understand that perception is truth to most people", "so i'm just telling you my perception", "i don't think there's been a lot of deviation from the rules that you perceive there are", "there's been very minor deviations that six hundred feet like i said it's been in our ordinances for thirty plus years and i think it's a little outdated", "we just did the zoning", "if that was the point", "so it's in the subdivision ordinance", "we didn't totally update the subdivision ordinance", "i'm sorry", "i don't want to take your meeting to debate", "you need to make sure that you're hitting these things accurately which i don't think you are", "my perception is that there are a lot of times that we have plans where there are variances there are modifications one thing and another all i'm saying is", "they're not", "there are not a lot of those", "there have been a couple here in you know recently but there's not a lot of variances being granted on new developments", "just not happening", "i respect your perception", "it's an accurate perception", "thank you gentlemen", "i appreciate it again", "thank you for everything you do", "no old business on the agenda", "planning champion capital subdivision on bower hill road", "champion capital lp", "they recently purchased the twenty three plus acres at two hundred and sixty nine bower hill road", "they're asking planning commission and the township tonight for approval to subdivide that twenty three acres into two single family residential lots", "this is the property where a recent fire occurred and there was a death", "then champion capital bought and then tore the house down that used to exist on lot one", "that was done in march of this year", "we're talking about a modification here tonight for this subdivision", "the proposed plan is to create one new lot that's lot number two which will have direct driveway access to bower hill road just like the existing residents used to have", "bower hill road is classified as a collector roadway at peters township and our subdivision ordinance stipulates that except for previously recorded lots of record you're not allowed to create new lots with direct access to bower hill road", "they're requesting the subdivision to be approved in this modification request", "this section of bower hill road has a twenty five mile per hour speed limit", "the required safe sight distance in our subdivision ordinance looking left from the new lot is lot two", "looking left is two hundred and fifty feet and looking right is one hundred and ninety five feet", "this stretch of bower hill road as you can see on that subdivision it's a fairly long straightaway", "so there's good sight distance from the proposed right of way on lot two", "they would exceed the two hundred and fifty left and the one hundred and ninety five right to meet and exceed our township safe sight distance for the driveway on lot two", "the driveway on lot one too has the required safe sight distance", "this property is in our low density residential zoning district", "the minimum lot size in that district is a half acre", "both of these lots exceed one acre", "this area of peters is serviced by the peters creek sanitary authority", "there is public sanitary sewer access available to both of these lots one and two", "the plan includes a twenty foot wide sanitary slash utility easement between the fifty foot building line and the property line along valley road", "there's a twenty foot easement that runs there's a sanitary sewer right here", "and peters creek has indicated that they will provide that utilities will provide access for both lots one and two to that public sewer", "there is the requirement that peter's creek sanitary authority approve this plan as well as dep has to approve sewage facility planning modules", "therefore staff's recommending that the planning commission approve recommend council approve the champion capitol final plan including the modification to our subdivision ordinance section thirty eight thousand five hundred and thirty six blocks lots and parcels be approved subject to those nine conditions that are listed in my report", "lot two would be subject to a one thousand five hundred traffic impact fee", "that's one of the conditions on the plan and both plots would be required to at the time of a building permit come in with their building permit application a storm water management plan for each lot as each proposed home is submitted for building permanent location", "other than that the plan is in pretty good shape and staff's recommending approval subject to these nine conditions", "is someone here to talk about the plan yes", "can you come up and maybe answer a couple of questions for me on the plan itself it shows some hightension wires", "i can't see those on the birds eye view", "are they pretty predominate or are they real high yes they are high and they are pretty large", "i mean you see it on the plan and they just cut up right", "can you just tell us your name first my name's andrew ehrenberg on behalf of champion capital", "isn't it kind of strange to have", "won't the driveway be like right under these hightension wires is it going to be tough to put a house there with those hightension wires there any problems with doing that no it shouldn't be a problem", "the way we subdivided it to optimize both these lots", "and like ed said with the driveway having to come up the side cannot face bower hill road", "it will slightly be under that power line but it shouldn't be", "i wasn't quite clear", "where would it come on the side yard or on the south side the driveway would be here", "it's not uncommon to have a power line right of way running through", "i guess i never went around", "great meadows has them", "windermere has them stonehenge has them", "okay", "it's not uncommon", "it's a pretty tight space you're building on lot two though right because there's a pretty significant drop off on the back on that street", "yes", "we have intentions to build a larger home on lot one and a significantly smaller one on two", "i shouldn't say significantly but they won't be two exactly the same hoskin style homes", "put it that way", "right", "if there was not safe sight distance here for lot two you know i wouldn't be sitting here recommending that we approve that modification", "this is along a fairly straight portion of bower hill road", "if there was not the required safe sight distance then it would be a different story", "in this case there is safe sight distance", "they're creating a one hundred and twenty one acre lot minimum is a half acre", "so that part of hoskins plan that comes down that's shown on the overhead is that already there that road already built yes", "i can't i was down there not that long ago when this fire happened", "and i couldn't recall if that connection was already built", "so the sewage connections already built", "it's already there sanitary sewers there", "any other comments can we get a motion i'll make a motion that the planning commission approve the recommendation based upon the planning commission's memo dated july 6th two thousand and eighteen for the champion capital final subdivision as well as the nine recommendations so stated in the memo", "all in favor aye", "thank you gentlemen", "we'll figure out when this plan is going to council", "we planning modules and such", "it'll go probably sometime in august", "anything for the planning portion ed well the only thing is we let the planning commission know we hired we've hired two new folks", "this is their first week of work", "i didn't make them come tonight because it's such a short little meeting", "at the next meeting i will introduce our new assistant planning director which is seth koons and our new zoning person code enforcement officer which is kristen who will be at our next meeting in august", "other than that i don't have anything", "all right meeting adjourned"], "name": ["Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018/Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018/Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018_DOT_HD_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018/Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018/Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018_DOT_HD_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018/Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018/Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018_DOT_HD_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018/Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018/Peters_Twp_Planning_Commission_-_July_12_2018_DOT_HD_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "14675b.flac", "identifier": "ProfileJ26_2", "text_document_id": "14675b.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [1170, 5173, 8740, 9820, 6110, 4400, 23420, 3203, 8190, 3272, 9008, 8530, 2843, 4330, 6420, 2297, 1090, 3413, 3782, 4843, 2940, 10690, 32450, 6130, 1896, 13954, 3767, 6104, 14029, 3470, 5450, 4620, 4620, 5840, 3100, 2240, 8659, 6563, 14460, 5580, 3670, 840, 4780, 2440, 12023, 8540, 9630, 19560, 3800, 9410, 11640, 2045, 1818, 26100, 12110, 6523, 9812, 8040, 26080, 6810, 10118, 4763, 17163, 12293, 1830, 11827, 1581, 2272, 8840, 1870, 4440, 28010, 3300, 4020, 13707, 13940, 7933, 21443, 2483, 2530, 15673, 5000, 4470, 2820, 4650, 2559, 1421, 5093, 6010, 8540, 1700, 6370, 1713, 6020, 4520, 7953, 4303, 11160, 4140, 8160, 19663, 1480, 1400, 5370, 11720, 3730, 9283, 4550, 4593, 2810, 2067, 4599, 833, 2070, 13420, 6910, 1567, 6206, 2080, 1590, 3280, 2650, 1930, 6047, 3486, 5740, 4400, 1360, 5813, 2247, 10570, 3727, 1393, 1940, 3020, 8969, 1341, 833, 7237, 23680, 3570, 1900, 13780, 11660, 2130, 4600, 10643, 2980, 2110, 7823, 12735, 2640, 9653, 2003, 1750, 6912, 17511, 6970, 3290, 2290, 3617, 6184, 3599, 4890, 4810, 11320, 5000, 6279, 5219, 2937, 13433, 7400, 6875, 7355, 3041, 1299, 1155, 2395, 16140, 12910, 2521, 10552, 13553, 4720, 8480, 2420, 13216, 1634, 7950, 1303, 4077, 2933, 1593], "label": ["motion pictures", "well i believe in motion pictures but the motion pictures i believe are the motion pictures in people's minds", "and the motion picture as we turn that is the cinema is merely a means of putting motion pictures in people's minds", "now there many more economical and faster ways of inducing pictures in people's minds than by means of motion pictures", "motion pictures may be a bit more vivid and may be more specific", "they may be more stimulating from an emotional standpoint", "they may be more realistic but if you're dealing with familiar situations and you can talk in terms of the previous experience of the people to whom you are talking and can make that sufficiently vivid by still pictures or even by words without pictures it's far more economical of course", "so that only about a third of our work is in motion picture field", "the rest is verbal in terms of talks illustrative talks yes and dramatic productions of one kind or another", "we produce live shows", "and in fact we are at times the largest employers of the theatrical", "help should we say in the country because we at times we have as many as fourteen roadshows out at one time", "i wonder if i may ask you to do something for me mr handy", "you on your garment have no outer pocket", "and i'm familiar with why you have your suit tailored without it but i think it's an interesting story and i'd like you to share it with our audience", "i don't think i'm peculiar in this but", "well let's put it", "temptation is hard to resist at least i find it so", "and when i had a pocket there i was inclined to put things in it", "it's the easiest pocket to reach with my right hand like that", "so i had a way of putting things there", "and they interfered with what i'm most interested in which is maintaining attention and keeping interest on the thing that you're talking about", "in other words the concentration on communication whereas i might be watching your pencils instead of listening carefully and watching you right and i had particular weakness because i used to on a blackboard or on a chart as we call it these turnover charts i would use green and red and black and sometimes a fourth color to emphasize or give special significance to particular points that i was making", "sometimes those are symbolic such as green for something good to do and red for go slow", "a danger sign and that sort of thing", "well the convenient place to have those pencils so they didn't slow me down in the flow of my conversation or my presentation or communication was in this pocket", "and they would take attention when i didn't want them to take attention", "so to remove temptation i had all my suits thereafter made without that pocket", "i suppose for similar reasons i have come to learn of certain wardrobe do's and don'ts that your freelance actors and performers and so forth are asked to cooperate with in handy productions", "such as i believe one time the button down collar was taboo", "i think you discouraged the use of the bow tie when it perhaps was not widely worn", "and at one time i think you would have preferred an actor without a mustache rather than with one", "am i right jam yes and that is all based on the same idea", "it's difficult to keep your own attention on what you're talking about and stick to the subject", "let alone to have your hearers stick to it", "and anything that is conspicuous", "now there may come a time again when smooth faces or upper lips are conspicuous", "but that particular time mustaches were conspicuous and they were distracting", "so far as the wardrobe was concerned we do recommend to speakers executives if they have a communication job we suggest that they have a tie that be not conspicuous", "sometimes it's conspicuous to have a tie the same color as your suit", "in fact i think we're pretty close to that time now", "yes", "i had a fancy at the time personally for silk ties", "i had quite a collection and variety of them", "i had the experience of talking to a sales executive and presenting to him what i thought was a very good recommendation a suggestion for the solution to the problem", "and what i got through he said to me he said jam i was on a first name acquaintance with him", "well i think i may say it was no less than tom watson sr of the ibm", "oh he said jam would you mind starting all over again i have been so interested in that beautiful tie that you're wearing that i haven't heard a word you said well i decided i would leave my colorful ties at home", "that was the end of your silk collection i had a sofa cushion made out of them", "mr handy i'm very much interested in something too that you were obviously a pioneer in and that was the documentary film", "and i know of your attraction to the kind of man that tom edison was and i recall that you had a great deal to do with the presentation of one of the early documentary films on his life", "didn't you sir yes", "i learned a great deal from tom edison", "i wrote a paid story on him one of a series of interviews that i had with the business leaders and outstanding personalities at that time particularly inventors people of new ideas while really following up some of these suppressed desires that i'd had at my father's family table when i was an infant", "i sold the tribune on letting me do a series of that kind in which i could ask the questions i didn't tell them that that i hadn't been allowed to ask when i was six seven eight and nine and ten from that standpoint", "well sure so in interviewing tom edison i had learned a good deal and i wanted a third helping", "i went down to find out what he then considered his greatest invention", "and after showing off my previous knowledge i discovered that it wasn't at all what i thought", "that instead of it being the motion picture or the phonograph or the electric light bulb that he thought his greatest invention was the central service station from which an entire community or city could draw power electrical current", "well i had dug up a lot of other things that were surprising and among them was his concept of the motion picture", "and i discovered that he had originally intended that invention to be as an educational tool", "and that he had envisioned a transformation in our schools", "and he was living without that realization of his dream and the suffering is from the disappointment of seeing it being used for entertainment", "which at that time well times haven't changed too much was devoted almost exclusively to love murder mystery crime and sex that isn't crime exactly", "that sort of thing and he was disappointed", "so i immediately then thought well i wonder if i couldn't save this daughter of yours from the life of shame under which the motion picture industry has led her", "and the perils of pauline", "and all that sort of thing", "and why not have some factual films one of the earliest was a documentary a life of thomas edison", "and as a matter of fact in the silent days", "wasn't pancho villa another of your subjects there yes", "pursuing factual films and looking for some excitements in it and using the tribune to promote them on a participation or rentals basis we sent a correspondent down there to talk to pancho villa and to get the inside story from him on why he should behave the way he was behaving how he got that way and talked to him sympathetically and he allowed us to take motion pictures", "we brought them in and we circulated them in the theaters", "and that way broke new ground", "we at that time however had already pioneered the celic tribune news news weekly which was a presentation of factual material in the theaters", "with the pressure of newspaper publicity we had demonstrated that people were also interested in the facts of life as well as the facts of life as they quote unquote yes unquote presented them", "mr handy you have during your very very interesting and colorful and productive years in this business done so many things", "i'd like to ask a question that i mean not to be a provocative one necessarily but if you and i were to meet on a train or today possibly in a jet airplane and we got to chatting and i said to you mr handy what do you do how would you describe your occupation well you might have something entirely new", "and i might hear something entirely new", "i suppose i'm along that line once", "it is a bit difficult business to describe because we set out to accelerate the processes of education and we interpret that term very broadly and also to make them more pleasant", "i always loved to learn but i hated to study", "and i thought there might be a lot of other people who felt the same way", "so i could describe our business in terms of", "well i could just use that phrase what we do is accelerate education", "but chances are i'd get some more questions", "i've discovered that", "or i might say our job is to make education painless", "that also has the disadvantage of being an interesting statement that leads to another question", "it is an interesting statement because a number of years ago you made one very close to that i think when you said that education should be a pleasure and not a pain in the head", "pain in the head", "and it can even become a pain at the neck if you let that headache continue long enough", "that's as a matter of fact", "well i once gave myself the challenge of stating that differently every time", "this question of mine you mean yes your question what's your business and giving a different answer each time", "at the same time see that that answer was explicit that it was true and that it was succinct", "and for a whole year i stuck to that resolution", "every time i had a seatmate on a plane i travel fly about seventy five thousand miles a year have for well i suppose thirty years", "i would give a different answer to that question", "i even made the game harder for myself by always asking my seatmate what's his business so that he would have to ask me", "and you know that for that entire year and i suppose i must have answered the question at least one hundred and eighty times in the three hundred and sixty days that i was moving around on trains and planes i gave a different answer every time and it was a true answer", "of course that i'm not surprised by", "each time", "mr handy there are so many interesting facets that i want to be sure we at least touch on this afternoon", "and you pointed out earlier that you came from a family of seven and of course i know that mr jamison handy has a family of his own but i don't know what his number is and what these people do and i'd like to hear a little bit about them", "well i have five of them and none of them are in my business", "one of my daughters earns some extra money by teaching in a class elementary school", "i have another son who is a business executive", "he's been a salesman and a sales manager", "i have one who has no use for business", "he thinks it's a pain in the neck", "i have a daughter who has given me grandchildren", "wonderful", "and in matter of fact a greatgrandson", "you were away from home as you pointed out so much that i'm told that mrs handy has made up for some of the lost time when you didn't go back to the university of michigan and has a kind of hobby of her own of going to school", "well she likes continuing education and i think i finally sold her on education", "maybe maybe i didn't", "you know women sell themselves sometimes and let you think you contributed to their education", "sincerely and maybe i have a little bit", "hope so", "but about ten years ago she started going to college", "she's slightly my junior but not very much", "and she's been going college ever since", "although she's earned a sabbatical holiday and she's not going to college this semester", "but she's gone to a number of colleges", "i am away from home but she will come and stay with me as a commitment she always keeps it", "any time i stay in the same place we stay in the same place for two weeks", "that seldom happens", "i'm gonna be in detroit all this week but that puts her up pretty well in the clear", "on the other hand that interrupts her education", "she went to summer school at columbia one year and i think it was about an eightweek term and i complicated things by staying here for a couple of weeks", "so out of the eight weeks she missed two", "but she succeeded in getting an a", "i'm quite proud of that i would be indeed", "on a condensed or fast course", "mr handy a while ago when you were relating how you did a little fast crosscountry work to get your story to the tribune on the occasion of the demonstration at the university of michigan", "running downtown to the telegraph office", "yes", "i related this hour with another sport in which you have participated with outstanding success and i'd like to talk about your swimming", "i'm especially anxious too because if i may and i'd like to read a little bit that was printed in the illinois athletic club tricolor on its 45th anniversary when commander francis mcdermott wrote as follows in august of one thousand nine hundred and seven our tank opened and among the swimmers we had harry hepner perry mcgilvery and jamison handy", "only one of them had a reputation at that time handy", "he was truly a one man team", "he's the only man in the history of swimming and any aau association to hold every championship fifty yards one hundred yards two hundred and twenty four hundred and forty eight hundred and eighty and the mile one hundred and fifty yard backstroke and two hundred yards breaststroke", "he held the central association championship both indoor and outdoor for several years and you're still going at it strong in the swimming department aren't you jam well i still swim daily", "five or six hundred yards", "i like to pull water around and work my body through it", "well you're not likely to volunteer this information so i want to tell if i may this myself that mr jamison handy was elected to the swimming hall of fame just last year in one thousand nine hundred and sixty", "and you were the 23rd to achieve that distinction", "again i congratulate you", "well that was most largely for my contribution in devising new techniques in swimming", "as a matter of fact it's a mistake to think of me as an athlete because i won my championships and broke my records largely with my head", "the head is quite important in swimming", "and one of the techniques which i have advocated is using the head physically in swimming more as the fish and the porpoises do", "and we're getting pretty good acceptance of that", "although we still have a way to do", "but my records and the versatility to which you apply there due to the fact that i got pushed around", "the minute i would develop a new technique and break the records some of these longeared fish whose hands were farther from their heads when they're stretched out that is when visualizing the end you start with your feet and you touch with your hands", "they took those records away so i had to move into another territory and make another change", "so i went from one device to another", "that's how i happened to get into breaststroke", "was all based on notions we used in the breaststroke", "then a side kick like this where these muscles aren't as strong they don't get as much practice as you're running", "so i just came to kick pool that way in both directions", "they were using in the backstroke they were using both arms together this way", "i used them one at the time like that and that way avoided the loss of momentum and broke the records", "but in swimming as these talented longeared fish particularly the basketball potential shall we say started to use those techniques they broke my records", "many of them didn't stay on the books more than a year", "well i think one remarkable achievement that robert ripley had occasionally publicized as a matter of fact", "of course it's well known i think that you were a member of the us olympic swimming team when you were quite a young man", "when was that mr handy one thousand nine hundred and four", "and you were then in what event i was in the quartermile breaststroke and in the halfmile and in the mile", "now it was not on that subject that mr ripley found it so unusual and therefore reported it", "what was more amazing is that twenty years later you were again representing the united states on the olympic team", "well i represented the second time i represented america as one of the brokendown swimmers", "you know what the brokendown swimmers are i'm afraid not", "they're the water polo players", "oh", "so the second time i went back with the water polo players", "and that was partly the realization of a suppressed desire because i had been selected for the one thousand nine hundred and eight team but my employers thought i'd made all the contribution i should make at that time and i didn't get a chance to go with that disappointment i wanted to find some way in", "they wanted you to show up i got just ahead of somebody who has duplicated my record at least technically by making the team twenty eight years apart as a yaughtsman", "very interesting mr handy", "there was something else that i wanted to ask you and you say you travel so much and swim daily i want to know why swimming attracts you", "well from the standpoint of efficiency i use every part of my body which is difficult to do without a hockey team or a basketball squad for these days", "and it's something that you can do alone although it's fun to do with other people", "when i can get all the activity i want get my arteries all flushed out use every finger that i have and every hole", "get a lot of action in a short time", "and i can do that in ten minutes and if i have company so much the better but i don't have to make an appointment to do it and i can do it when i get off an airplane at one thousand one hundred at night or at five hundred in the morning if necessary", "so i carry a swimming suit with me", "i was gonna tell you it'd be safe guess to assume that you have a quantitatively adequate wardrobe of swimming suits", "well i have a few", "i have a light one one that i can put in a match box", "fits very nicely in my bag", "i carry a bag nowadays"], "name": ["ProfileJ26_2/ProfileJ26_2/14675b_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "ProfileJ26_2/ProfileJ26_2/14675b_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "ProfileJ26_2/ProfileJ26_2/14675b_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "ProfileJ26_2/ProfileJ26_2/14675b_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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5050, 11016, 5757, 9067, 9667, 4004, 8760, 14870, 4847, 17484, 5029, 9945, 1045, 3360, 13580, 23160, 7000, 2733, 15886, 8332, 11127, 3370, 9601, 1503, 1429, 833, 1873, 1925, 3330, 2730, 3613, 3850, 1144, 2947, 1278, 3789, 35761, 31743, 20918, 11999, 18120, 2570, 17030, 9110, 11890, 7320, 27214, 5706, 18610, 4963, 913, 1061, 14140, 4930, 3770, 4023, 1993, 1630, 2490, 2591, 3050, 3993, 18410, 8220, 3240, 12690, 2620, 9770, 29100, 4130, 4520, 4480, 2780, 4756, 6354, 1630, 6270, 5843, 6200, 22300, 12193, 19300, 3030, 2247, 7363, 7550, 4250, 9840, 7490, 4860, 4580, 4340, 7250, 833, 833], "label": ["good evening everyone", "thank you for coming tonight", "i apologize for the delay in getting started as from port forum and other venues have discussed we're a little short staffed and we technically don't have a forum for our planning commission meeting but we can talk about this and just a general open conversation and hopefully lock who's traveling from out of state will be back in time for conversations later", "basically what we wanna do is there are some information brochures on the back", "there's a summary survey that we ask everybody to fill out if you could and hand in at the end of the meeting", "kathleen is gonna go through a brief presentation of these three changes we're considering implementing", "and then we'll open it up to a general conversation preferably about just these three sections that are out here for the time being", "and then once the conversation has moved through this and we've answered the questions that have come up we can open up to a more broader discussion of zoning and planning commission goals in the long run", "so i think on that note i'd like to turn it over to kathleen", "okay", "thanks mark", "so as mark said i'm gonna just briefly talk about the sections that the planning commission's been working on and has prepared some changes to", "so those sections include the flood hazard overlaid district section sixty eight section three hundred and fifty five which is the village commercial zoning district parking in the upper bridge street area", "section fifty seven which is the sign section directory signs specifically for a railroad street angelina court", "and then there are a few changes in definitions", "so why are we making these changes now the planning commission believes that these changes do help residents and businesses in a number of ways", "for section sixty eight helping streamline the process and clarify the process for development in the special flood hazard area", "section three hundred and fifty five helps commercial property owners in the upper bridge street block expand or change uses by eliminating the requirement for parking spaces", "and section fifty seven improves visibility of businesses who are located down a railroad street and juliana court by allowing directory signs at the bridge street intersections", "so the background for these changes last fall as you probably all know voters defeated the proposed zoning and subdivision regulations", "oh great welcome", "those proposed bylaws represented a major set of changes within a unified bylaw and there was general support for certain elements in the proposed bylaws", "and specifically for these three sections that the planning commission has been working on the last several months", "therefore the planning commission is poised to move forward", "but first wants to hear from folks in town about whether you agree that these are changes that should move forward right now", "so i wanna talk just briefly about the fema flood insurance program", "this is a part and parcel and important element that richmond has to follow for properties in the floodplain and the flood insurance national flood insurance program provides insurance that isn't covered through standard homeowners insurance", "this began in one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight by congress and richmond does participate in the national flood insurance program", "we agree to adopt and enforce the ordinances that meet or exceed the fema requirements to reduce the risk of flooding", "and richmond has participated since one thousand nine hundred and eighty two in the national flood insurance program when we adopted the flood hazard area development standards", "and we have adopted the minimum mfip requirements into our zoning regulations", "richmond has gone beyond the minimum requirements", "we'll talk about that a little bit more this evening", "until tropical storm irene we were not aware as were many municipalities that fema requires property owners to apply for local permits for any development which fema includes minor repairs", "and that's at least what we were told by folks that we worked with at fema", "and so richmond's regulations were modified to help people through that process", "we hope to make it less cumbersome", "fema ultimately reviews and decide whether to approve our proposed bylaw changes and we have to have fema approval for the bylaws to remain in the fema national flood insurance program", "right now we're in good standing and fema approved our last set of changes which were done in two thousand and nine", "so just wanna talk about a summary of the major changes for section sixty eight", "it has it overlay district", "it does allow for streamline zoning permit process for many repairs whereas the owner needs only to get a zoning permit", "and expands exemptions from getting a zoning permits at all for low cost repairs lawn and gardens and repairs below five hundred", "in our proposed bylaws last fall we did use the threshold of one thousand", "fema instructed us to reduce that to five hundred", "that's something we can continue to talk about but that was what fema indicated to us", "our bylaws proposed bylaw changes also eliminate the current requirement that when an area of land development is within one hundred feet of the outside edge of the fema special flood hazard area then the owners have to demonstrate through a jurisdictional determination that the land is not inside the flood plain", "a lot of people have found that requirement to be onerous and they should be sets of changes would eliminate that requirement", "and the reason that was enacted in our bylaws was because the current maps that we're using which are the one thousand nine hundred and eighty two maps from fema includes a fair amount of error", "and so in a real effort to be cautious the planning commission wanted to ensure that properties that even if they were outside the flood plain they were still possibly going to be at risk for flooding that they would fall under the jurisdiction of section sixty eight", "so we are poised to receive new maps soon we hope from the fema will approve our appeal for new flooding insurance rate maps", "and as soon as that process has concluded we won't have to use the one thousand nine hundred and eighty two maps anymore", "so for making repairs in the fema special flood hazard area now there's some new exemptions added", "so any building contents lawns and gardens mailboxes and newspaper delivery boxes repairs we talked about up to a five hundred in costs", "any reroofing where the roof line itself isn't being altered and any maintenance of outside areas would all be exempt", "you wouldn't have to get a zoning permit at all", "so we have expanded the items that would be allowed through a zoning permit by the administrative officer", "right now these have had to go through the development review board and this will simplify that process substantially", "so repairs for any items over five hundred in costs any residential scale playground structures for a single family house or a duplex and any improvements outside of the floodway that don't qualify a substantial improvement", "and that's fifty of the value and that covers substantial damage as well over a threeyear period", "so again these are an quite a few changes that would help expedite permitting for folks in a flood plain cause they would only have to get permits from the zoning administrative officer", "so there are still activities that do have to get approved by the development review board", "and these are just some new items playground structures for multifamily or non residential uses moved decks porches detached garages and nonconforming structures and uses", "and within the floodway there are no changes to the items that have to go to drb", "so we've already talked about how a number of items now will be shifted to the zoning administrative officer", "the development standards are reduced for those applications and rather than having to provide or meet the development owners that you would for a project that goes to the drb it's a much smaller list of items which are in the bylaws", "we can talk about those when we finish", "now one change that was made with the proposed bylaws was that accessory dwellings could be allowed in the flood plain but they would have to be attached to an existing principal structure", "that is you couldn't add a principal dwelling in an accessory structure", "and so that change is also included in this set of changes that the planning commission is considering", "another change that i think will expedite the process as well is that only certain applications will have to be sent to the state agency of natural resources", "and that will be for new construction substantial improvement or any development in the floodplain", "right now our bylaws say that any development within or under the jurisdiction of section sixty eight has to go to the agency of natural resources", "so that's an extra fifteen days to any application", "so this will help quite a bit", "the planning commission talked at length about some of the key provisions that are in our current bylaws and that they would like to keep in our bylaws", "richmond does not allow new residential or non residential principal structures in the flood plain", "and the planning commission believes this is an important provision and important policy by the town and is important to saving taxpayers and owners a lot of dollars later because inappropriately we've allowed structures to go in the flood plain", "and then based on our experience with irene the planning commission has convinced that we should continue this policy", "richmond could certainly simply model or adopt the fema minimum standards", "and there are a couple of reasons why as we move forward we may wanna keep our standards that are above the fema minimum", "and that is we're looking at participating in the community rating system which is a fema program whereby by having standards that are beyond the fee fema minimum and by agreeing to do community education and other activities we can have a lower set of insurance rates for residents of richmond", "so that's something that the town's looking at doing in the near future", "and then vermont act one hundred and thirty eight is a law pretty sweeping law that was passed a couple of years ago now that relates to improving water quality around the state", "and there are many incentives within that act to have bylaws that are above the fema minimum", "so just want people to be aware of that", "and there've been a shift to talk about the other elements of the proposed changes", "so as i mentioned in the village commercial zoning district", "for owners in the upper block and we actually have a list here of the properties that would be affected", "these parcels would be exempt from providing parking spaces for new land development", "right now the drb can waive parking requirements but this is a better approach that makes it very clear to those business owners", "if they want to go to a more intense use on their parcels they wouldn't have to provide parking spaces", "and so it will certainly help going through the drb process because parking is a problem for businesses in that area", "so briefly just wanna talk about the signs", "again the bylaws would allow for directory signs on railroad street angelina court that would abut bridge street and would allow businesses or organizations on those streets to be advertised", "and we have the prototype right here", "actually this would meet the standards of that new bylaws section", "and this came to be due to a court case", "and through the court case it was determined what the sign would look like in terms of the height and the width and how many panels could be on the sign and it's working well", "and we think a similar sign would work well on angelina court", "so that's what's in the bylaws", "and then they're just a number of new definitions that support the changes that were made", "that's it for the formal summary of the bylaws", "so the planning commission the scorn review comments that you make tonight and consider whatever revisions they want before setting a public hearing date and send your comments to me", "and we'll keep trying to let folks know through front porch forum and other avenues", "but there is no date for the public hearing", "and the select board will also have to have a public hearing for any zoning changes in there", "there's no date set for that", "hopefully by june that would happen", "there might be as you know in the fall there was a public vote townwide vote", "and in talking with the select board on monday night that's something that the select board would certainly be thinking about whether they would like to have a townwide vote for these sets of changes as well", "so that that discussion will continue with the select board", "and so with that i think we're ready to", "open it up", "open it up folks", "so i guess we'll start with questions and try to work it through", "maybe we'll start with the flood hazard and try to address the questions as they come up in the order that kathleen presented the summaries", "are there any questions or comments about what we're thinking about doing with the flood hazard over district i'm just curious in november when the ability to only have to pay one thousand royalty was it the trigger for replacement or repairs was one thousand", "i could see the regulation that suggests that it's", "that you have a scanner that says you can reduce that amount of five hundred", "to me that's increasing the regulations increasing the cost and the trigger amount for putting a new door on my house or water heater in the basement so that's for more", "i agree", "we received letter from mid swanberg with the state is the gentlemen who represents fema for the state in opposition to go through", "if it's a regulation though shouldn't there be something that says this is the amount there's no regulation", "if you have a communication that's different than something that is in the regulation", "they do not have regulations that say this is the dollar amount to trigger it", "that is a good point", "if you have it i'd love to see it", "and perhaps i would love to see it too but the point is that he told us that we would be in violation if we went to one thousand", "only five hundred would be acceptable to fema", "by its very nature the flood insurance my experience is it's a big fat scam and it really isn't a lack of matter", "my family has had flood insurance since one thousand nine hundred and eighty two and every year when they pay the checks payable to the outfit that gets the money the money had to be there", "we refinanced our house the year before the flood", "the flood insurance rate went from four hundred a year to two thousand five hundred", "the next year before they get paid a nickel it was two thousand six hundred and seventy one", "and now with the condemn property i still have to have flood insurance", "and this year my bill was three thousand and one and they have not completed anything", "the flood insurance you have to have it or they foreclose on your mortgage", "so this is just a big joke", "we have the need to set of standards", "and when i sent in the check for it has to be paid a year in advance", "it's not like something that you can pay on installment", "i think there's other people in here that pay flood insurance so they're aware of it", "when kathleen said we participate in the community rating", "the insurance rates are gonna go down to what it's just like a piece of paper that somebody sends you and said oh no we don't want that number", "you have to have this number it is an organized program that talks about reducing the rates for nfip", "that is a program that they have and there's ways that we're looking into participating in that and being an active member and trying to get the lowest rate possible which you clearly higher brought up the example that they're getting astronomical", "so anything we can do to bring the rates down for you and everybody else is a good thing", "and if that means that we have to have tighter standards than what the bare minimum fema regulations are", "and that would put us into this program which would reduce your flood insurance", "that sounds like the right path to follow", "which is why we're following it with the guidelines from pretty much the only people that we have experience with which is the folks at the state who represented fema who had given us direct feedback and said this is what's acceptable", "this is what's not acceptable", "five hundred is as high as we're going to approve you for", "so i'll give the floor back to whoever wants it next but that can't be applied right now", "what can't be", "the community standard the community standard to lower the rates it can't be applied", "we don't know enough about it", "it certainly is an important focus of what we wanna do", "we have to apply", "we have certain elements that we would decide", "it's a point based system", "we would decide what types of activities we would like to pursue in order to qualify for the community rating system and then we apply to fema", "and when that chamber law happens and those rates come down and there is another situation that presents itself is the planning commission or the select board going to say look these people comply", "they did what they were supposed to do", "pay up cause now i have two lawyers", "i think it's horrible what you've had to deal with with the flood damage that you've suffered and a lot of other folks have suffered in this room and in this town it's tragic", "i'm not sure how much here tonight we can do about that or even going forward i think", "participating in lowering", "i can't control what the insurance company somebody here has to have teeth", "the is ineffective they can do absolutely nothing", "and they've told me that on repeated times", "banking insurance has no authority over a federal program", "thank you", "i certainly sympathize", "i hope you don't take offense at my chuckling", "it was sort of an ironic chuckle to the trouble that you had to suffer through", "yes", "i wanna follow up on my understanding of what i just heard", "you've adopted these floodplain regulation since two thousand and nine", "they are part of our zoning regulations at this time", "the program that you're talking about point based community point based system has been around for how long why are we just talking about entering into it now and even if we prove these new regulations changes we already eligible to participate in this program with the current regulations which will be more restricted why aren't we in it after i don't know don't have an answer", "it's a very good question", "we certainly something we wanna move forward", "can i answer the question yeah please if you have caroline bounty", "we've known about this program since we known about the problem with the floodplain maps that were provided to our community in two thousand and nine", "in two thousand and nine we had documented the regulations that stood for flood planning regulations because we were going proactive rather than reactive", "we needed to update our regulations when these new maps are going to be put in effect", "if i'm saying something incorrectly here i hope planning commission members who were in their seats in two thousand and nine could correct me", "but in two thousand and nine we pushed to have stronger regulations than the known requirements of fema", "it would make us eligible for this program and we've been told about for years", "we've never pursued that", "pursuing it means applying it it's simple as that", "we had to review the floodplain maps and we were supposed to do that as a community but we were misinformed and we were told that we were only allowed to correct titles on the maps rather than truly look at the base flood elevations and analyze how it affected each property as property owners were you affected or not", "the planning commission then at that time when adopting these new regulations put in that extra one hundred feet beyond the bfe that was established by fema we're gonna put it out there an extra one hundred feet because we think the maps are wrong", "in two thousand and nine they thought the one thousand nine hundred and eighty two maps were wrong", "and they are right", "and they thought that two thousand and nine maps were wrong", "so they put this buffer in with put the onus on the practically on her to prove not just the federal government's flood playing bfe for the town of richmond's additional one hundred feet", "so this program is out there that we could participate in in the last we're now in two thousand and thirteen last i checked", "so it's not just been a couple of years out it's been many years out that we could participate in this program but have never chosen to do so", "so to put that carrot in front of us let's have stricter regulations so we can participate in this program", "we should just be participating now rather than dangling the carrot", "i'd like to address a couple of issues in the regulations", "i'm not arguing for new development in the floodplain", "i have participated in numerous planning commission's hearings", "i've participated in select board meetings", "i've gone to work sessions and been told we're not taking comments from the public", "i've met personally with the chair of the select board gary dresser and kathleen jenn to try and work on these", "the planning commission sorry kathleen jenn and gary dresser", "i went to the federal government i got the regulations", "i understood the regulations and i helped make some of these recommendations that the planning commission did adopt and putting these regulations but they're not listening to everything", "so my comment is going with these regulations is illusion of making things better for folks who are in the floodplain", "it's an illusion because you still have regulations in here that i think can be tweaked more", "and an example is the federal government does not require you to track three years worth of permitting on every single structure in the floodplain", "meaning if somebody decides to replace three windows in their house that's gonna cost over five hundred they have to get a permit for it", "and within that year if they keep doing minor repairs to the structure", "they found that find a rotten porch that they need to fix something things like that", "the town of richmond having been through numerous zoning administrators has decided that they're gonna attempt to track permits on structures in the flood plan and estimate costs of repairs", "the federal government does not require that they look at it at a year by year basis where you substantially damage or are you doing substantial improvement to have that fifty threshold", "that is an excellent point", "that is something where richmond has gone beyond the standards", "the thought behind that was that first of all the definition for substantial development is", "it's substantial damage or substantial improvements", "all right it is fifty of the net value of the home", "correct the net value of the structure", "okay", "so if you were doing something in the course of three years of investing fifty of the worth of your building your home in upgrading the planning commission thought then that you should put the efforts into floodproofing that home too which is the whole concept behind substantial development", "can you explain what flood proofing of structure would be and can i give you an example this is how the planning commission didn't think through the process as far as its zoning minister", "first of all you have to make sure all the zoning administrator before you have practiced properly", "second of all you have a property that's in the floodplain that's owned by one owner that might just do repairs to windows and door that then sells the property to another property owner", "the third year out it's actually a totally different property owner then decides that they want to repair their furnace that just got in", "in year three you're going to make them flood proof their home potentially", "you bring up a good point", "i mean that can happen for six months", "may i finish", "in year three you're going to require them to flood proof their home", "and if i asked you right now as a planning commission member i'll bet money on this table that you don't know what that means for them to have the flood proof their home", "is a considerable investment", "i know", "no what does it mean cause the community needs to know that by you tracking their activities for three years on the third year they might not be able to repair their furnace without floodproofing their home", "and that's a lot of money", "that could need elevating their structure their first floor of their structure to be one foot above a bfe", "that's pretty significant for anybody in the floodplain", "and i want everybody in this room to know and everybody on the videos that i do not own", "my primary residence is not in the flood plain", "i am here speaking on behalf of any flood victim or future flood victim or future floodplain individual that does not comprehend eighteen page section that just refers to them", "and they've gotta help the latest zoning administrator comprehends that eighteen page section as well", "so there's a couple more tweaks that need to be done to this floodplain section before it should be put back out to vote because it's not good enough yet", "i'm not saying it's not", "i appreciate that and you brought up the certain point that three year window is an acceptable", "the last question i have for your emergency repairs", "is there anywhere in the floodplain regulations that discusses emergency repairs because you had to adopt from zoning for when a natural disaster actually occurred", "you had to hurry to the select board to get into zoning adopted emergency repairs could address emergency repairs", "that's another excellent point", "thank you for that that's a great idea", "there's something that could easily be slipped into it", "didn't come up before", "i wish somebody had brought it up when we were working on this", "i think we would all agree that i have", "i'm sorry i didn't hear it cara", "i'm not speaking now i've heard it i think we have all heard it", "it's an excellent idea it seems like", "i requested kathleen asked that i put things in writing", "i have put things in writing before", "there've been notes from happening to the planning commission about numerous areas of this section that could be tweaked", "i asked her to pull that back up and provide it back to you so that prior to this going to a vote those areas are addressed", "emergency repairs tracking and there's multiple other things along with i would like to see the one thousand repair", "you can't get anything done for five hundred", "you cannot i really truly believe that at the state level somebody spoke to somebody at the fema level and this five hundred number got passed out there", "there are towns that don't make the property owners get a permit for repairs and there's not a town in the whole nation that fema has gone after or has revoked their mfip status for not requiring repair permits being issued", "if you can find that out if the federal government has gone for one town and broke their mfip status i would eat my words", "are you suggesting we ignore the fema standards", "there is no fema standard waiver of repair fees", "there's no fees for permits", "there's no documentation that fema says that they require a permit", "correct", "they require permit for repairs", "kathleen just said that require permits for anything", "so how would we even put in the five hundred i think it's a number that somebody said we're not gonna fight you with can put in five hundred or less", "but i really think in today's day and age one thousand is a realistic number for somebody to be able to do some kind of repairs or proxy", "and then in the city of berry was allowed by fema for use the five hundred threshold", "and that's what fema has indicated to us that we should use but it's up to", "but there is no federal government regulation with the dollar amount on it", "that's just somebody saying let's just pick a number", "so i said richmond pick one thousand", "i pick one thousand why not take", "so you wanna waive repairs completely", "waiver perfect apartment for repairs to your store", "i'm not saying that i'm asking the question", "i'm not sure but i'm asking the question", "and how do we determine that we determine that by what we hear from the fema representatives with is the folks at the state who review our plans on behalf of fema and approve them", "we approve them by town", "these are town bylaws", "these are town bylaws but whether or not we're in compliance with fema standards is not determined by us it is determined by folks at the state", "so my question to you guys to find out is have they ever involved mfip status for a town that did not issue permits for repairs because that's all we're talking", "i just think people would have a house need to be able to do repairs to their structure", "i'm not talking substantial improvement and i'm not talking substantial damage", "i'm talking everyday repairs", "everyday repairs is permitless", "could you reiterate the three points that you make sure i have them in terms of here's the five hundred repair", "there's the longitudinal tracking", "and the third emergency repairs", "separate apart from the five hundred correct your furnace blows in the middle of the winter", "do you just call the repair guy to have him come and bring you a new one or do you have to go get a permit town office and wait", "now roofs are totally separate and i'm glad richmond builtin the federal government regulations and the federal government is who says you don't need to get a permit to repair or replace your existing roof", "that's one of the things that the planning commission did listen to me on", "there's a couple of other things and we brought the word that word snapped and i was able to prove it to the planning commission so they built it in", "so thank you i appreciate some of the changes", "and thank you", "name's robert allen", "i live with", "we went through the flood", "two things we're talking about the town putting more regulations in place for the floodplain", "i would just say that because of the community rating system i would think that you would like to focus on their points for any of those substantial changes", "those are what they call above and beyond changes because that's the thing that's gonna benefit us", "i have read the community rating system book sort of", "but there's specific points that they rate you on", "so if you're going to do things beyond what you have to do make sure they're for that", "i don't know about the threeyear thing", "that's news to me that that i didn't read that regulation but i would just encourage you to think about the one thing that's gonna benefit people in the floodplain is reducing the flood insurance", "that program's supposed to be able to reduce flood insurance up to fifty the way i read", "the other thing is none of this stuff is cast in stone", "if you pass what you have right now and people go well five hundred isn't a reasonable amount that doesn't mean it can't be changed", "but what i will tell you to save this let's not argue about it for three years", "i have things i have to do to my house", "get something that's better than what we have because what we have is as restrictive as can be", "we're talking about kind of minor changes to it and really some good points that they give", "it's not the community rating system to be three years out on this", "why do it that's not beneficial to anybody but if it does then you consider it", "but what i wouldn't wanna see here is let's drag this out for three or four more years", "this would be a really good thing because i'm one of the people that has to deal with it", "thank you", "jennifer van town manager suggest that in terms of the substantial improvement threshold that there could be mitigated by some sorts of discretion at the board level for the drb where instead of the regulations just automatically triggers it", "maybe there's a waiver process where somebody could take a look at it and say well this home had twenty windows custom made", "maybe they shouldn't have to flood proof just for that although if somebody was adding on a third story or expanding certain amount that somebody could say well this was what we had in mind good point", "and you'd be on previous years", "well it would essentially be within that threeyear window", "you're looking at dollar figures only", "there could be at the board's discretion where they can take a look at it and say whether they felt the improvements really a substantial alteration or whether they were just expensive improvements on a low cost house", "jeff can you describe a variance process i mean is there any precedent for that that you know of and improve on i do have", "i think he talked about it in the waiver", "as opposed to a statutory defined variance we could call it a waiver from that position", "a section of a essentially homeowner could say what i did in my house doesn't trigger a flood proofing that's an interesting point", "i'm not devil's advocate but how would that work i mean this scenario of some new buyer in year three and in the first two years that they're tracking the other previous owner has done some repairs and it triggers this substantial improvement dollar amount", "and then the development review board has to go back and analyze what exactly the nature of the improvements were and whether or not it was something that triggers oh well this was just a flake", "this was just an expensive granite countertop do you understand what i'm saying how would the developer or your board actually split those hairs to say well no this dollar amount of these dollars actually triggered that you have to do these flood maybe they probably you're looking at whatever was having to happen in year three", "and by then didn't deem whether that's significant or critical and then just wave whatever happened before", "i mean", "that it seems kind of a little loosey goosey potentially and that then you're left having to come up with a whole list of other things that are", "the only time the drb grants a waiver it's a little loosey goosey there's no doubt about that but we have to have some faith in the judgment of the drb", "they grant a lot of waivers", "i think you're gonna start playing with the definition of substantial improvement or substantial damage", "and that is truly information that's more defined by the federal government than a local governments", "and i even recommend in your definition area where you talk about substantial damage whereas talk about fifty of fair market value", "and then later on in section six thousand eight hundred and sixteen you actually talked about that it could be fair market value by an independent appraiser or tax assessed value", "that tax assessed value needs to be part of your definition for substantial damage", "could you repeat that again you know how we we just want to send an email", "it sounds like a very clear", "no it's not it's very basic", "right i know", "in your definitions", "how you calculate substantial damage where substantial improvement is what your zoning administrator is gonna determine whether it triggers going to a drb or not", "yes", "okay", "in your definitions that has to be clearly defined how to do that calculation", "so any new zoning administrator", "and the recommendation you're having to change what is defined now", "you can only have it defined as fair market value when it's fair market value or tax assessed value", "because nobody wants us to have to spend four hundred to have their house appraised to know that they're spending twenty thousand per repair that's only a certain percentage of their post structural value", "and that comes into play your tracking and jeff's idea of waiving certain improvements that would be a whole nightmare for you because you'd have to list what improvements are that exempt from this calculation", "and it would become very looseygoosey", "the better avenue to take is stop tracking three years federal government doesn't require you to track three years", "it saves the property owner a lot of nightmare it saves the zoning administrator a lot of nightmare and it stops having you having to worry about a waiver of what's substantial improvement i don't get it can i ask angela and carrie so what you're saying is as opposed to having the drb with some latitude you'd prefer to have it in the regulations clarified in the regulations the drb doesn't have latitude but which i assume that jeff was saying is with the waivers there would be some latitude", "we're arguing that we don't have latitude on waiving a five hundred repair when it comes anywhere near substantial damage or substantial improvement that is truly federal government regulations", "and the drp will not have the ability to waive that calculation", "i think that might be imposed by fema far before five hundred", "because they really care about substantial damage when a flood has occurred that you have to repair to protect yourself from flood", "so carrie you're articulating that the waiver route is unacceptable i don't think it's gonna be realistic", "thank you", "i agree by the way", "thank you", "june hesting i will have probably a follow up question but will you talk a little bit about your process of determining the three years for the fifty of substantial damage that's funny i was about to say that before i called on you", "but our process for going to three years for that and i will tell you that i was in favor of it was that development in the flood plain is an expensive proposition for our community and for people in general", "the less intensive development in the flood plain the less added costs are gonna be the next natural disaster that happens", "so if it's a little bit harder to continue to massively invest in properties in the flood plain i'm not saying not maintaining i'm not saying not improving", "i'm talking about adding extra rooms and third floors and all these other things that are going to add costs the next time irene hits and we end up having to pay", "i know they say the national flood insurance program covers those costs but in reality they don't", "the federal government has to pitch in money in emergency funding to deal with the costs that are associated with heavy flooding", "and that is a real societal cost and that's why we went to three years", "can i explain one thing the properties in the floodplain and i'm gonna speak as a richmond lister right now in the sense of property values", "property values for the town of richmond located in the flood plain are not high end property values", "the neighborhoods are not high end value neighborhoods", "so repair work in those neighborhoods tends to get closer to a substantial damage number than say your higher end neighborhoods", "and i'll use south gray stone as examples", "those property values have structured themselves they're at a higher level", "so if you had to do a major repair or major improvements to those structures you wouldn't hit your fifty number", "but you take a one hundred thousand structure that has had flood damage in year one and just wants to then reside in year three and that's a good point but i'm personally kind of glad to hear that buildings in the flood plain aren't on the higher end market value", "and i think we'd like to keep em that way", "correct and i don't believe based on our historical pattern that you are going to have because we we'd like to encourage less we're not having any new development in the flood plain", "we're not encouraging any new development in the flood plain", "so all of our flood plain regulations aside from development need to be very careful in realizing the impact you have on those property owners", "just to let you know as far as bio spill in the state of vermont only three of them had closings", "only three have occurred", "i participated in one of them and there is still extra funding available for more properties to be bought out", "so if anybody in this community would consider being bought out and would like to be because they've had more than two flood events or more think about it because i'm just putting it out there that's great news", "that i know you wanna stop development in the flood plain i really think that you are going to encourage less people to maintain their properties by overregulating them", "and overregulating by threeyear tracking", "thank you", "i'm marcy harnett and i would just like to thank the chair for his comments about the public policy considerations regarding a threeyear period and just generally improving properties in the flood zone", "i agree with you that i think from a public policy perspective and cost to the public we should be cautious about regulations that would be relaxed for improvements significant improvements whatever you wanna call them to properties in the flood zone", "thank you and i think jeff's addition of the concept of availability of a waiver for previous if the immediate expense is something more urgent is a great concept that we can incorporate that helps create that balance", "i would like to second marcy's appreciation for the efforts that you put in and your transparency to the thought process", "i like hearing", "any time", "excuse me you're trying to stop this development in the flood plain and reduce it", "but the one thing i find notable and carol i'm sorry i forgot your name", "cara", "cara pointed out that basically the people historically that have been living near the flood plain don't really do this", "go drive around out by the river it's easy", "you don't have to look far you don't have to go very far", "you don't find any really great homes there", "i challenge you to find them come to think of it i'm sure you will", "so you're curing a problem that probably doesn't exist", "show me where it exists", "doesn't happen", "just thought i'd point that out", "i was thinking about it", "then it doesn't have any harm in being in place", "can i ask you one question mark this threeyear tracking exists now can i ask you if all the permits issued for the iou flood damage has a dollar value attached to it and you would be able to identify each permits dollar amount right now you see the permits more than i do as a lister", "for each actually we do have that information in every zoning permit file", "and for irene they're also in the notebook", "so they're in multiple places", "so in the zoning files right now for all the permits that were issued for irene we would know the contractors estimated price and actual price of repair", "i don't believe that's a correct statement because i've gone through those zoning files", "you might be right", "you gotta think it's a good faith effort", "i mean that was a pretty crazy no it's a requirement by your current regulations that i'd like you to remove because you don't even go by it", "maybe we should work harder at going by it", "well that's what fema fema requires us to track that information", "it's your regulations that requires you to do it for three years", "and if you pulled your files right now they don't even have what happened in irene in them", "but for each permit that's the goal of tracking information", "we do require estimates and if there were volunteer activities provided and the zoning administrator tried to do the best possible with irene there but the goal has been to get estimates for every permit that was granted", "stephanie douglas hughes", "i live next door to and my house was flooded", "and i just wanna say of course we need to be cautious and we need to think ahead", "we do need to prepared if this ever happened again but it was ninety years ago it happened", "and my house has been there a long time and i do intend to give it a lot of care over the years that i live there which hopefully are many", "and i just wanna have you think about that and put it in some perspective that i'm imagining that when you live in a flood plain that has never destroyed homes that has not been an issue before not for a long time", "and i just want you to think about that too", "any other", "marcy", "i'd like to come back to this community rating issue and say that my recollection is that in two thousand and nine when the planning commission adopted the last set of regulations i was on the planning commission at the time we were very definitely aware of the community rating program", "and we looked at it some and felt that at least at that time and this of course was preirene that it would take a lot of work to be part of the community rating system", "maybe the system has changed since two thousand and nine i don't know", "maybe others lou or gary who were on the planning commission may have some recollection of that but i'd love it if somebody jeff or kathleen and mark could kind of articulate some of the requirements of being part of that program", "because my sense was it's not just an application you've gotta do work you've gotta do you have to take steps to try to minimize future damage to properties in the flood zone by enacting stricter regulations or whatever i don't know community outreach education", "there's all sorts of different and we looked at it briefly too although certainly it wasn't our intention when we were writing these regs to apply at the same time for this bypass", "but it was certainly a picture that we discussed and it has a whole series of different things", "and maybe that would be a great opportunity for a kind of a subcommunity that the planning commission and the select board or somebody could put together and investigate it further with folks who are very knowledgeable about the flood plain regulations", "i think that could be a very interesting thing to find out just the bare minimum what is we need to satisfy this improved rating system", "and i still would argue in some cases for things like the threeyear window just for the general good sense of the threeyear window but also then look for targeted ways at what accomplishments we need to achieve to actually qualify for this program", "and it would be quite an undertaking", "i don't know if it's something that this the planning commission intends to do immediately in and of ourselves but it certainly would be exciting if we could get a group of people who could delve into it further", "any other questions about flood plain yes i have one", "it's in regards to what you just said", "you put some guidelines for what you want from people", "do you have a way to tell people i thought about this doing some of this i have no idea how to do it", "i've read the thing this whole point system", "if you do this you get this you do that you get that", "so you really wanna pick and choose what you've done already or done", "so i don't know what you people would have in mind from a committee", "well rather than doing it in the select board and planning commission's blocks of time perhaps together with the select board we can nominate a group of people who are welleducated who are informed about these regulations and plans and then build towards them", "i think that would be very exciting", "and after we begin and then we could come back and revisit this", "i mean first of all i think what our main goal here is tonight is to take some very good points that have come up and consider them in the brief time that we have before we actually move this on to the select board for approval", "but what we have right now is really really bad as you've already stated", "and just because we change it doesn't mean that whatever we change it into is going to be locked down", "that's not the way it's gonna be", "if we change it and make things immediately better in the next two months where people are putting in swing sets in their backyards then that's great", "and then this committee gets together and makes some more points learn some more stuff takes more valuable input from everybody", "and then we can maybe make some additional tweaks to this", "i don't think that what we have here proposed is contradictory to where we're headed", "we may not be where we're headed but it's a step in the right direction in a lot of ways and more importantly is away from what we have now which is our goal", "i think we can look at the issue of the community rating system again", "we did we have a couple of times and i think as mark said we determined there was not an insignificant substantial amount of work that we'd like to work toward but given everything else we were working on it wasn't something we could", "so we could discuss it again and figure out an easier way to do it with perhaps public involvement or subcommitte that kind of thing", "any other questions about the flood plain thoughts yes jane", "just one comment to hesting", "i hear what you're saying care about the fifty over three years", "but whether you live in a flood plain or you live in south view fifty is fifty", "it's relative to whatever you can afford to buy", "so if you have a one hundred and fifty thousand house you're gonna do seventy five thousand of repairs in three years", "even if you live in south view that's a lot of money", "so we're talking about such a small percentage of homeowners that would even be able to do that spend twenty five thousand a year in upgrades or improvements over a threeyear period that i think we need to keep that in perspective", "right but my comment wasn't about", "my comment is that third year they've already done that amount of money worth of improvements", "and then by the way you might've done them all wrong or should have changed them all", "the planning should have happened in year one not year three for flood proofing", "if you're gonna elevate a structure if you're gonna put a new foundation under it if you're gonna relocate where the utilities are they were in the basement and now they're coming up to the first floor all of that planning should have occurred in year one not in year three", "so year three when they just need to replace the furnace you are going to tell em no not until they elevate their structure and not until they relocate their utilities", "so my point is this backwards planning", "and we're talking about versus no planning which is one year and you start all over again", "so at least we're trying to go somewhere well do the one year", "in that one year and then go back to forty improvements every year and potentially massive development or improvement of structures in the flood plain which is what i was saying i was opposed to", "and going to the whole thing of it's this whole thing about the fema funding and homes that are getting damaged in the flood plain that's only coming out of their own flood insurance that they've paid for just to let you know", "and fip flood insurance program the funding for that comes from people who are in the flood plain who are paying for that insurance", "and so when those repairs when those flood damage claims go through they're taking it out of that insurance pool that they've been paying into", "that's where that money comes from is folks who aren't playing with flood insurance who are outside the flood plain who when they get flooded and fema cuts them checks from that insurance pool which happened within five days of irene irene people who were not part of the nfip program were cut checks for thirty thousand two hundred", "and people who were yes had insurance didn't get checks for up to six months later", "i'm sorry i can't fix the nfip payment program", "yes but you're requiring people in the flood plain to go beyond nfip regulations and harming them in possibly year three", "they can do repairs they can't do in year three", "that's my point", "well i think jeff brought up an excellent and around if those repairs were actually required in year three that there would be a we could incorporate something that wouldn't be in violation of fema and allow a waiver that would allow repairs in year three not to trigger this program if the repairs in year three are critical as interpreted and deemed by the drb", "if they're in violation of fema they're in violation of richmond regulations", "yes i know that", "marcy", "i think it's up to landowners to understand the flood plain regulations here and to understand the risk that they're taking if they make substantial if they make large dollar amounts of improvements in one year and then again in the next year that maybe in the third year if something happens that they may have an issue", "and i really think at some point you have to hold land owners responsible for understanding", "if they live in the flood zone there are risks and they need to be willing to accept", "harlan stockwell i do live in the flood plain", "i did lose my basement and my neighbor lost hers", "when i went to get the paperwork done i told them how much i spent on my basement", "they did not like the amount i told them", "they wanted to know how much labor i spent when i did it myself with my brother's help", "they wanted to know how much it would have cost to have it done or how much labor i put", "and they wanted me to put a dollar value on my labor", "so if you're tracking for three years i'm screwed because they made me do some stuff that i didn't pay for labor", "i got materials at a decent price cause my brother could get em and they just didn't like the answers i gave em", "i gave em the honest the value that i paid for the blocking and the cement", "and we were also told i live on the street and my neighbor's next to me we couldn't raise our houses any higher than the original basement", "and my neighbor had to put four walls on there", "and we were told we could only go as high as what our original basement was", "and we wanted to put it higher", "you mean you wanted to flood proof your home and she wanted to raise it up a little bit higher", "and someone told you you couldn't we were told we had to go the same height the basement was when the flood hit", "was that the nfip insurance or was that something else cause that sounds crazy", "the town told us this", "i went through hell with the town right from day one with this mess", "i was told i couldn't even put a basement wall back under my basement until i had a permit", "well we certainly don't want that", "and you know when in emergency and i think the points brought up about some sort of but they wanted prices that weren't fair", "what i paid even the prices i paid they did not like that", "well i can see that as an issue just because there are certain costs associated with something", "if you can do it for a lot cheaper i mean that's great but it's still a fundamental value cost that you're adding to the property", "and i have to imagine that that's what that interpretation was based on is that even though it only cost you ten thousand you did fifty thousand worth of work which is good for you because you're a capable and handy guy who can do it on the low but you're still adding fifty thousand worth of value or repairs to your home", "so it came out economically good for you but those values are still those values", "you're not adding to that i didn't add any value i fixed my basement wall so my house wouldn't fall that's right and so it went on the permit as part of the permit process where everybody's trying their best to report the cost which is cara you were concerned that that wasn't happening", "it sounds like whoever was processing that was trying to get an actual cost reported that reflected the actual yeah so now if i wanna put a refrigerator and a stove in my house i'm screwed", "not under the new regs cause they're furniture and you can do that", "if you go ahead and approve these regs if you don't fight them and push them through i'm not saying they're perfect but they're better than what we have", "cause right now you do have to get a permit", "i think right now no okay good", "you need no permit for contents under current regulations under future regulations under any regulations", "you need no permit for contents", "you do not need to get a permit to bring a new bed to your mom", "awesome", "and it's the bylaws that specify that you're supposed to get an estimate from an outside contractor which is probably why the zoning administrator you are upset because of the value", "and we did clearly i know we clearly defined the contents to make sure that that type of thing was and you'll see that's one of the definitions we're having so forgive me if i misspoke by saying otherwise but the reason why we put that to help define what was exempt property", "anne june i'd like to address your added value to a property", "there are certain things that add value to a property and there's other maintenance repair work that does not add value", "if you replace your roof on your home it doesn't add a value as far as you're tax value because as soon as you have a roof anyhow unless you go from a shingled roof to a standing seam roof", "so adding value to a property versus just maintain a property is what's key and i think it's very important", "fixing your foundation it's only adding a postvalue", "it's not adding a value because you originally had a foundation", "and harlan speaks clearly to my biggest concern with any regulations that they be clear and precise and not have a bunch of wavery options because what's good for one neighbor should be good for the next neighbor", "and that concerns me that different zoning administrators could interpret the language differently", "so that's why i want tax assessed value put in there as opposed fair market value", "that was an excellent point thank you for that", "any other questions about flood plain we've got a couple more and then i did wanna leave time to open it up to other roles that the planning commission may wanna focus on", "yes the other sections", "any questions going going gone to village parking requirements", "any thoughts or questions about what we're proposing in waiving the parking requirements for businesses just on the upper block heidi i'm the chair of the economic development committee", "i just wanna emphasize we are the ones that actually brought this before the planning commission", "and that's why you're seeing this on this document", "the thing that we noticed in the planning and zoning bylaws is that you are required to have certain amount of parking spaces on bridge street", "and when reviewing bridge street there are only sixteen parking spots one being a handicapped and reviewing the document that you need on six hundred and twelve see the requirement numbers of off road and highway parking spaces shall be the following", "the eating and drinking establishment you need twenty parking spaces per a one thousand square feet of gross floor area", "we do not have that", "so in order to actually be in compliance we really are not able to do it", "so that's why we're asking for the waivers on bridge street to enhance businesses being able to potentially come in ones that are here they can either expand if they choose to and this doesn't hold them back", "so that was one of the main reasons why we did ask for this to be these waivers to be lifted on bridge street", "so thank you chair", "thank you", "and we all sat down on that", "great any thoughts or comments about the signed section that we're proposing which basically just legitimizing what's already there", "yes sure", "one question we do have and maybe you can explain to us first proposal from the economic development committee was from the railroad to the stop light", "and i'm wondering if you would be able to explain why the dentist office nofa and td bank north were left out of that decision", "i was one of the folks who thought that they should to be left out of that", "and my thoughts on that were that this was kind of a novel concept the idea of waiving parking requirements altogether on businesses where generally you require parking for a certain any type of business that's in there", "it's kind of a crowded area as it is", "and to waive these parking requirements like we suggested could cause all sorts of havoc that i don't know any of us can foresee", "and so i suggested i think and came to consensus that we limit it to the buildings of the businesses that are most severely impacted", "also coupled with the purchase of the parking lot or the approval of going ahead with developing the parking lot should also significantly reduce parking constraints for any other businesses in the area", "and so those two hand in hand i think are gonna go a long way in allowing businesses to develop in the upper block without and hopefully it won't significantly impact traffic and parking issues on residential areas that kind of thing", "yes cara", "my understanding on the intent behind not waiving parking requirements for those structures were because they actually own land with the structures versus the businesses along bridge street having to use public parking because there wasn't land that went with the structure", "like td bank north has its own parking lot because the land goes with the structure", "nofa has its own parking because it has land to go to the structure and the same with the dentist office they have land and parking that goes with the structure", "and that's why that certainly was another argument absolutely", "so in case those structures wanted to expand in size and rather than use they take and use their own parking spaces and put structure there instead and then force the parking to go their own business parking to go to public parking thus not having as many spaces right in downtown", "absolutely", "that's what i was told it's a perfectly good reason too absolutely", "i think they go hand in hand both of those explanations as to why we left it where we are but who knows", "maybe this is gonna work out great and we'll be able to expand this and it will be able to benefit other businesses in town but let's take a slow approach to it and see where it leads us", "okay heidi", "so the one thing that i really wanna emphasize i am so appreciative of the outreach that came in the mail", "so thank you", "the second thing is burlington is actually doing waivers also on the waterfront according to saturday's news", "so this is happening in burlington", "waivers or zoning modifications waivers to parking", "so that's the drp so we're ahead of their town", "that's scary", "just a curiosity what's your projected outcome you project six more businesses moved in with x amount of traffic", "nope nothing like that", "there were no formal studies or anything done that way which is why we i was in favor of it as much as possible yeah", "so does that new regulation allows zoning for signs and say resident parking only for everybody that lives around it i mean isn't that what's gonna happen when you don't have enough parking spots well that is going to be that is gonna be a very interesting perspective", "i am considerably more at ease with the expansion of the parking lot which hopefully will negate that", "but yeah there is the potential for that", "it's a very real potential which is why zoning has parking requirements", "there's a reason for it it's a good one", "this is a little bold but that is a very unusual situation in richmond", "and we thought that if it could help businesses it would be worth experimenting", "and really that is very much what it is it's an experiment", "robert my position was with the depot parking lot was very integral to the discussion with a number of business owners in that upper block", "and from my standpoint i felt that the infrastructure that the community could provide with the passage of the depot lot may in fact release development activities in the upper block that had been restricted as a result of the fact that many of those buildings did not have any opportunity to provide additional parking onsite", "just to comment on the parking and the possibility of no parking signs going up for resident parking only", "that's okay though", "the reason people are putting up signs that say resident parking only is because they've experienced to somebody i'll just use the market for example because the market is pretty well attended and i'm so glad for that", "but if folks along reverend street are experiencing folks from the market parking in their driveways they should put up residential", "just like when i have my land posted i shouldn't go out on my land and find anybody other than my family", "so if they own property or if they're paying rent there they should be able to park there", "and if folks need to be reminded that it's resident apartment only it is private property and they certainly can put the signs up", "maybe the new parking lot will alleviate some of that", "okay", "any other comments on science okay great", "sorry my name's marshall paulson and i", "could you just speak briefly on any sort of requirements regulations or oversight having to do with the sizes of the signs and any lighting especially lighting at night on signs for these projected signs that we're talking about okay well first of all they're not at all projected", "they are actually there in", "it's the one on railroad street and all we're doing is allowing a identical sign on jalina court which would help enable whoever's looking to develop the cranberry parcel", "one of those limitations they're looking at is okay i don't have street front exposure how's anyone gonna know i'm here i'm not gonna buy this property and develop it", "by us allowing a sign similar to one which i think has gone through considerable debate and has been approved on on the other side is a reasonable allowance", "well i think so too but to address my the lighting questions specific questions lighting on signs", "we didn't touch lighting", "lighting is defined in the current regs and we didn't touch lighting at all", "the proposed regs that were defeated there's a whole lot on lighting", "we did not incorporate any of that into the proposed regs", "it is exactly as it is now for better or worse", "are there any other thoughts anybody would just like to share with the planning commission for goals and objectives that we should be focusing on i have another question besides that", "what's the proposed timeline for this this proposal depending on what we've heard here we're gonna go back and talk about it and maybe tweak it a little bit", "and then we have to go to a public hearing", "we have to warn that public hearing", "so if we go to the first meeting in may and we come out of our first planning commission meeting and say yeah we made the tweaks they're nice let's go with what it is and let's warn a public hearing", "fifteen days later we have our normallyscheduled twoweek planning commission meeting", "so then the question is do we have a special one do we postpone it to get the hearing and now the hearing is a formal hearing where it has to be warned it's broad", "it's put in the free press it probably not gonna pay for another flyer", "the flyer that went out today or for this meeting was put out there so that people would know about our discussions and be able to give great feedback and input on things before it was kind of locked down", "because once we go to hearing we're not really allowed to change it", "we can tweak it just tiny bits but we can't make major changes", "so then it's just a way of letting everybody know what we're thinking", "and then we give it to the select board", "now the select board of course can tweak it and they have that right to do that with anything that we give them", "but then after they're done tweaking it they go to a formal hearing", "and that's where they basically offer the printed document and say okay this is it this is what we're giving", "they can get some feedback and do very minor tweaking jeff correct me if i'm wrong but they can do minor tweaking", "and then they can either decide to put it to a public vote or certainly in this case we are hoping that they just go ahead and approve these changes because they truly are the least controversial and the most beneficial to those involved", "so our goal is to get a finished document to the select board at the end of may if we're willing to make special planning arrangements to get a hearing in and to the select board for their review in june", "and from there i'm not sure how long they'll take to review and have a hearing for it", "but i would be hopeful that we have these regs adopted by midsummer july end of june end of july", "i think that would be great", "i think it would help a lot more people and hurt very few", "for these three issues", "for these three issues yeah", "that's all i'm addressing at this point", "yes hi i'm anna o'brien and i'm here with a group from the richmond senior center board and interested parties in richmond senior center development", "and it's late now so we won't take a lot of time but we did come before the planning commission a few months ago to ask for the change in the zoning to village mixed use for the creamery parcel because there's been many conversations at many levels with many developers about the creamery parcel", "and we were disappointed that our for changing that to village mix use was not included in this document", "and so we are here and we have a letter that kind of explains our position but we're here basically to ask you to please reconsider that again for this round of zoning improvements so that we hadn't moved forward on the development of the senior center planning", "you wanna just present them the letter or should it be ready why'd you get up hi i'm mary o'neil and i have the honorable position with the aging of richmond being chairman of the senior center board", "this is a letter to the richmond planning commission from the richmond community senior center board", "and it's in response to the april 5th flyer sent to richmond residents which describes the revised proposal and changes", "we appreciate the challenging work that you're doing on revisions but we do have some concerns", "as a board who is committed to the development of a senior center in our town we are very disappointed that the creamery parcel zoning changed to fbmu is not included in the list of proposed changes", "the primary parcel has been zoned commercial", "since the cheese plant left years ago it has not been developed", "it is a hazardous area which needs to be cleaned up and it's an eyesore in town", "developing the area with mixed use housing commercial business and a senior center would benefit the entire village", "by adding to the water and sewer use it would generate property tax income and increase property values", "we would ask if you'd please consider allowing the cranberry parcel change to go into mixed use so that we can move forward on the evaluation and planning for the possibility of locating the richmond community senior center on that side", "as a 501cs rate we serve seniors in our communities including richmond bolton and huntington", "we have some of our members in that at various times since we've been doing this for seven years now with a town planner town administrator who's was now the town manager and we've had ones with the planning commission", "we were under the impression following our meeting with the planning commission several weeks ago that there was support for senior center planning to move forward", "the cranberry site plan by david rafiel and for property owner craig castle which includes mixed use of commercial housing and the senior center is the vision we have been working towards", "just briefly the benefits of having a community senior center in richmond include building community and socialization for individuals who live independently at home", "and there are many in richmond and huntington and bolton", "providing programs for seniors for entertainment wellness and lifelong learning providing meals to supplement senior nutrition and finally bringing the seniors who don't live in the village into town to shop and use services", "there are other richmond organizations who are supporters of the richmond senior center", "the beacon the richmond historical society and richmond terrace senior housing are all very much interested in developing this the development of the senior center", "so we ask for your support and consideration for the change in zoning for the cranberry site to village", "thank you very much", "this is signed also by the vice chair catherine and neil o'brien secretary", "thank you", "i'm glad you had the opportunity to say that for the camera and for richmond on a larger scale than sometimes the opportunities you have with just the planning commission", "because i think it's very important to have community participation and action towards this", "to give an answer as best we can as to why we don't have the village mix incorporated now is there were several factors that came up over the course of this winter that made it impractical for us to get the village mix pushed through along with these", "one is the controversial nature of changing the commercial district as it is now to something that satisfies the particular developer who owns that property now because the planning commission historically has been under the impression that the only way to develop this property is to allow the changes as guided as worked through with the developer", "so we made these changes in our zoning or village mix", "i wouldn't say we made em changes but the village mix was already very compatible and the proposed regulations with what he wanted to do", "we worked with him back and forth on changing a couple of things allowing slightly higher residential density that would make it viable for him to develop the property because we were under the impression that is the only way this property could ever be developed in any way", "there's several things that have come up recently that have got the planning commission convinced that that's not the case", "that this property could be developed without the village mix", "so we had that factor going on coupled with the fact that the village mix is very involved process because what we tried to do is take what we had spent in a unified buyer off and spent three years crafting so that it interconnected with all of these different components of zoning and pull it out of where it was which was nestled amongst and connected with everything and take it and cut it and paste it into what we have now for current zoning regulations", "and there were an awful lot of nuances and connections with that that would take quite a bit of time to work through", "obviously we all know about the changeover in the planning commission and how there's been a lot of new people loss of a lot of great people", "and the concept of where the planning commission envisions this property going hasn't been as uniform", "and we've certainly heard from not just not just the planning commission itself or from outside sources that say hey there's things that can happen here that don't have to involve implementing the village mix", "so we were here we had all these great rules about the flooding the signage the parking they're clean", "they're extremely i would think if supported there may be things that could be tweaked and improved on but i don't think there's too many people out there of anyone who's gonna say that what we're proposing is worse than what we have", "it maybe could be better but there's no way it could be worse than what we have", "so this could move forward i think very cleanly and the planning commission believed that it could go forward very cleanly by itself", "so we spent a couple of sessions", "time flies when you only have two sessions a month and we put these together put all the finishing touches on them we're presenting it here we like it", "now the question is what is our next step what is the planning commission's goal going to be certainly", "go ahead heidi", "so i'm very much appreciating the whole process here and how much work it is and the fact that there is a huge process", "some of us were disappointed in the vote because we would have been moving right along with the senior center had the original zoning changes change that to village mix use and the developer being able to", "we could have clipped along and done the application for the grant for planning", "so it kind of put a stop point in the senior center board's process", "and we feel like now we're just sort of in limbo", "so our appeal is to keep moving with it and we wanna keep moving with it", "right now it's just in limbo and we can't keep moving with our own grant applications because of this question", "so with all due respect to your process we're just really like how much more waiting and seeing and how's it gonna go can we do and if there is a way to work together toward meeting the goal", "i would just say from our perspective and we've done a lot of talking about this as a board that site has been zoned commercial and sitting there a long time", "and i have met with and we have met with several developers who have looked at it and contemplated it and walked away", "it's really a very challenging site", "and the mixed use offers an opportunity that i think some of us at least believe is a really good opportunity to improve the village center and to make that site really awesome", "and so we would just urge you to reconsider moving that quicker so that we can be moving", "i would just add that by not including the village mixed use in this package my perspective a statement or a lack of endorsement or you're not appreciating all the work that the senior center has done", "i think we've all agreed as we looked at the various plans and it's a great idea to a patient or like i can just speak for myself", "i think the commission in general they were like that was a great plan", "the current zoning does allow for a combination of commercial and residential use", "so it does allow for a certain amount of mixed use", "and question is whether or not the village mixed use as we proposed it would would be a significant", "would offer a significant additional options for use of like the senior center", "but ultimately it's up to the owner of the property whether it's the current owner or any future owner", "and that's been i think discussed whether or not there may be a transfer of ownership at some point but it's up to them to decide what mixture is gonna work for them", "so i think we're sensitive to that specific use and would like to do what we can to facilitate it but there may be options", "i guess my point is under the current zoning or some modification of the current district rather than going to a completely new district which we were discussing this mark said it's a much larger proposition in terms of creating that new zone that's what's integrated with all the other zones that were being proposed", "so maybe there's a sort of middle ground that could be developed where the existing village commercial district could be amended", "and if there are specific changes to the existing zone that maybe could facilitate the location the senior center that's something which we might hear from you as well", "cara question cause i'm not familiar with the whole senior center wanting to be in a area", "what's the square footage that the senior center would take up in whatever might be constructed over there the current model that we are looking at is the shallot senior center model and it's about six thousand square feet", "and what would be the total square footage of the whole property so the project see we're just one element of other planning", "so we aren't really involved in the whole thing but the owner and developer people that we've recently been talking to say the math really works to have this mixed use and have the recent housing some commercial and a senior center as a", "because the one hundred commercial actually and this has been verified for us by three i wanna just understand one thing", "you are not looking to be residential no we're looking for a nonresidential so your use would fit with what it's zoned for right now it's just the developer wants to add more residential use than what the zone allows right now", "so by putting you in there with them they're convincing the town of richmond to get rid of commercial usage and bring in more residential into an area that's zoned commercial", "i think that's a fair summation", "you could characterize i just wanna say thank you for trying to preserve some commercial space in town because that would help the tax base", "i do support a senior center", "it's too bad there wasn't any other area in town that that could go", "i do know that that commercial property has sat in the market for a long time because what the purchase price and what the current sales price were pretty extremely different", "so when you're trying to make a lot of money off of an investment sometimes you sit on that investment for a while before you sell it", "so i just wanted to say thank you for trying to preserve some commercial space and not go completely residential because they wanna be nonresidential", "the problem with it really is that it is a brown field low level but it is a brown field that needs to be cleaned up", "and that's the key problem with the site because of the cost", "so the various models we don't need to take much more time here but there are many people who have modeled a few different scenarios there", "and when you look at the various models including residential as of onethird of it commercial residential senior center it actually the math works better about getting to the end goal", "so i'm not a developer but i've met with a lot of people about it", "and i think you could think that they're just twisting us into getting residential in there but actually if you really meet with various people who are development of all sorts they look at it and they say oh if this could have a residential component we could do this", "well the cleaning up of the brown stone whether as a residential component or not is still value", "so the goal is to get somebody to own it with them like a municipality or somebody who can get the state and federal funding for cleaning up of brown stone and that's the key to it", "so brown stone has always", "that has always existed over there", "and so as a whole just to make sure people on the flood plain that everybody's paying the bill for when they get flooded i don't wanna pay the bill for some commercial property to need to be cleaned up that we've known has always needed to be cleaned up", "it's an investment for somebody else and it's somebody else's responsibility to their argument had been that the residential would be seed money that would allow further development of a commercial that may not have pay off right away due to the lack of tenants and interests in the commercial side of the development", "so that's always been the take and it's something that we still need to discuss", "and i frankly would love to have lots of input on it", "when i was on the planning commission we did hear that the owner of the market here feels he's outgrown that space already and looking for a bigger place and there aren't any other places in there in the village", "so i feel strongly that we do protect the commercial space the types of commercial space we've had", "i'd hate to see our market be on the outskirts of the village further just because we've given up a perfect site for a move like that", "are there any other specific comments that", "i've got something i'd just like to sort of maybe close out with but i want to see if anybody else has any comments questions thoughts", "just quickly don't forget to take a survey", "thank you", "mark", "take your time to do that", "and i was gonna stand at the door but", "we actually hope to get it out on surveymonkey too now", "we're going hightech and see if we can't get out", "lots of participation lots of feedback from lots of people", "actually it's already up on surveymonkey if people want to fill it up", "a link to it yes we'll put a link up there", "someone posted so people can go straight to surveymonkey for", "mark if i could", "i'd like to applaud all of you for coming to see me", "i'm embarrassed to say i sit here as a result of the fact that at the very 11th hour of an extended amount of effort on the part of my colleagues here et cetera i vigorously fought the proposed zoning and i guess contributed to its defeat in some respect and found myself having to apologize to those members of a committee that i didn't engage earlier in the process", "and from my standpoint i have sat here wednesday night after wednesday night after wednesday night with an empty audience save my friend ellen ward and struggled with especially the flood plain because i felt and as a result of some neighbors saying to me you owe it to your neighbors to sit on this board and try to bring the community back together so to speak", "and so from my standpoint i would encourage you send us emails send us notes capture us in the market and talk to us because the number of evenings i sat here and had to turn to a solitary neighbor ellen ward and say ellen what do you think i don't live in the flood plain", "what do you think these individuals who are struggling postirene need and more often than not i came up empty handed", "and i said i don't know what would be in the best interest of these individuals who are suffering and at the same time the broader notion of my community and the broader notion of what's best for a community", "so i applaud you for coming", "i would encourage you to come here and put your petard in the ground and say dammit i want this i want that and that helps us informs us to make better decisions for the entire community", "the democracy doesn't work when the three of us sit here and have a private conversation amongst ourselves", "so please next week or next wednesday or two wednesdays from now at least half of you show up do a tag team", "sit there and say okay you going tonight no i'm gonna go next week please help us", "i mean now that ann at least has said what's the next issue after flood plain after the parking after the signage what is it that you want us to deal with cara quick comment thank you for stepping forward and i just want them to realize flood plain isn't just their latest it's an unnamed it's hillview", "it's hillview and people in your community and this community don't realize what the flood plain is", "so you as the planning commission please look over the appeal flood plain maps that the town's engineer cas has now redeveloped for the river but understand that the flood plain maps for the streams and brooks are estimates and aren't even actual numbers", "so your decisions impact people on streams and brooks that don't even know it", "i'll be brief", "mary yes of course", "if you folks get a chance please reply and watch the from monday night because the defeat of the zoning document which was quite a democratic process which you identified was termed by chris gray as malicious mischief", "and there's a big difference between the video document that you think is a problem and malicious mischief", "i believe malicious mischief is a chargeable criminal offense", "and i think democracy is not malicious mischief", "thank you for being on the board all", "thank you for stepping forward", "well if i could just close this out again by i think", "i'm sorry did you wanna no", "by saying thank you to all of you for coming tonight", "and for those who may watch this at home i really appreciate that", "and this may spur some of you to offer more opinions and thoughts but a quick very brief vision of what i have for the planning commission's actions are consideration of the creamery parcel certainly", "but i still believe that the heart of the zoning regulations that were defeated in november were good", "and i think there was an awful lot of good things in that document", "i think there was a huge fault in a lack of communication that we didn't we thought we were reaching people and explaining and getting participation and we weren't", "and we wanna address that", "but i think that the concepts the basic concepts that we're putting forward i personally think are important to the town", "and that is decreased density in the rural areas increased density in the village areas a unified bylaw that consolidates development and zoning regulations and potentially even ordinances et cetera into one document so that people who are trying to understand what's going on aren't flipping back and forth between contradictory documents", "one's telling them that the drb is looking at one document and saying you can do this", "and then they're looking at the other document and the zoning regs and say no you can't do that", "so you can put it in there and develop it but once it's there it's not compliant", "things like that are kind of crazy", "and there aren't a lot of those but there's enough that are worth fixing", "and if we go forward with a unified document we would be able to address those issues and there would only be one", "for better or worse it would be one", "now that one could always be changed but if you change one without changing the other then you're back to square one", "so as long as we stay two separate documents we're going to have these conflicts and issues", "as far as the number of zoning regulations or zoning districts and those kinds of things i think they were important", "we did this with the best intention of trying to make compatible communities and neighborhoods that were compatible at that time as they were and allow businesses and uses that were in that area legalize them in essence make them nonconforming as much as possible", "that was our goal in trying to resolve so many of these different districts which is why we went to so many different districts cause certain neighborhoods are particularly different and don't belong in a larger subset", "so that's where i hope that we go forward as a planning commission with a lot of feedback from the community on the things that they think are most important and the changes that they want to incorporate with those fundamental core changes that we talked about and the best way to go about them", "so i don't know if there's anything else", "thank you guys for staying so late tonight", "mark could you just reiterate again for everybody what the next steps are in other words the next steps are we need to have a public hear", "the next steps are a public hearing to approve these regulations after we have a session within the planning commission", "then we'll pass that onto the select board and the select board should approve it sometime", "and should they make any changes after a public hearing should adopt these without a public vote in july", "and the reason why is because a public vote is really really expensive which is why we tried to take out as many controversial issues as possible", "it's really expensive to put one on and these things could go through very quickly", "and i think again have a lot of support", "so anybody disagree please let us know", "please share your 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"eight o'clock other matters", "eight hundred and ten executive session", "we are going to be going into executive session for the purpose of discussing negotiating strategies for nonunion personnel superintendent of schools", "the committee will not return to open session", "we'd like to start off first", "oh i'm sorry just one moment", "i'm sorry just one moment", "i'd like to start off just by welcoming janet grass", "gracia", "gracia", "thank you for the pronunciation", "welcome to your first meeting", "glad to be here", "glad to have you here", "welcome janet", "so if the public doesn't know she's superintendent's new administrative assistant and the new secretary to the school committee", "so that's been great", "great to have on board for the last couple of weeks", "okay so now visitors please come forward and just state your name address for the record", "hello my name is joseph garrity and i'm a student at foxborough high school", "and i wanted to let the committee know that that the ahern middle school the three elementary schools received the salad bar and smoothie grant and the foxborough high school received that last jan", "and this year they received a new modern oven pizza", "and then i was gonna say to you guys that misty mike yang left", "okay we don't we don't talk about we don't need to announce personnel stuff though", "i was going to let the committee know that", "right", "he's not like a big director all right", "we don't need to talk about people who work here or don't", "sorry but that's okay", "those are good updates on the food service", "thank you for those updates", "are you looking forward to the new pizza oven yes i am", "good yes", "me too", "maybe maybe we could get some samples sometimes", "ooh maybe we can", "i don't know we already had some", "oh yeah that's right we did yes", "i was thinking more that brick oven or that the oven but no", "thank you so much anybody else for visitors okay seeing none we're going to go", "we're going to move to approval of minutes", "please look in your packets for the august 5th minutes", "are there any additions revisions changes that we want to make on that okay seeing none", "do i have a motion to accept the minutes as presented i have a motion to approve the minutes", "second", "any further discussion okay seeing none all those in favor or zero", "thank you", "okay", "we're going to move to teaching and learning highlights", "a highlight proposal for the fhs senior project", "ms benneli", "right so as you know the last two years we've had teaching learning highlight at the start of every school committee meeting and we're committed to continuing that as part of your school committee goals and our school district goals that we share together", "and it's just a great idea to start each meeting with something exciting that's happening for students or for staff or even if it's for staff it's for students", "so our proposal for august since we don't have kids back in school yet where we're able to bring some students to the meeting to showcase and highlight what they're doing i would like to bring forward mrs myerspachla the principal of foxborough high school laureen white who's the director of guidance", "ellen pillsbury school to career coordinator can not be here tonight", "and we have sue carle math department head and tom murray the social studies department head if you could all just bring chairs up", "so if you recall while they're doing that last spring when they were here for the guidance update mrs myerspachla briefly described an idea that they had that they were starting to work on about the senior project which involves a lot of experiences for students", "and the committee was interested in hearing more about that", "so we thought that they come back to you pretty early before the school year even starts and talk to you about their proposal so that if the committee if this is something that committee is interested in supporting then they can start moving forward with their plans", "no time like the present", "so i'll turn it over to them", "i'm just going to do a very brief intro and then i'm going to step back so that these three could really come to the microphone", "once we had presented this idea of a senior project here to the school committee the conversation quickly began and a team was put together this summer to explore this further", "and laureen white who's our director of guidance has been a part of it", "sue carle who's our math department head and tom murray who is our social studies department head along with ellen pillsbury who is our our career person here that we have in the building", "and i'll let them tell you a little bit about their process", "we did take a look at other schools and what other districts have done and are currently doing", "and from that they put together this particular draft plan for what we think would be very beneficial to the students here and very doable for our students here in foxborough giving our seniors that opportunity to go out into work in the community", "it is not for pay it is for experience", "and it might be in an area that they have a a very strong interest in", "it could be an area that they're hoping for a career in", "or it could just be an area that they'd like to do a little bit with", "so i'm going to just kind of sit back so that they can have the microphone a little bit closer and they'll explain to you a little bit more about this packet that they have put together", "feel free to move the microphone around a little bit", "it does sound a little clunky from home but we can deal with that", "so what we did was we looked at other school districts in the area including duxbury xaverian brothers catholic memorial amongst others to figure out how other schools are doing this currently how seniors are going out to the community and doing these externships", "so we're looking in and we hope to recruit about fifty students who might want to do this and might want to stop going to school around april 1st", "so at that point they're going to go out on an externship where they won't be paid for this but they're going to get real community do community service do something that they're giving back to the community", "it could be a mural that they're working on", "it could be a working in an automotive shop and getting the real life experiences", "because many times and we've done this in the past in terms of some of our students go to the classroom and they go on out for one period a day and they're having an incredible experience", "but do they really understand and walk the teacher's shoes okay and plan for a whole day", "it's very easy to plan for forty five minute lesson as opposed to a whole day", "somebody sees dead poets society and wants to become a teacher", "and it's awesome", "but at the same time it's a very different job than dead poets society", "so this gives them an opportunity from april 1st and there's a whole rigor that goes with this", "so we're really excited about this opportunity for our students", "and we really feel like it ties into our core values in terms of lifelong learning", "all right they're going to go out there", "and what were their takeaways what did they learn from this experience itself did anybody have any questions about the packet i know we were able to get the packets to you guys ahead of time", "and we're really excited about offering this to students with school committee approval that we'll be able to offer this to the students at the beginning of the school year", "have some meetings with our students and tell them that if you decide to do this there will be a commitment that goes with it", "it's not just showing up and i get to leave school and i'm done with school on april 1st", "that's not the case", "could you explain the process right the process", "and i think one of our questions one of my questions is who would be eligible to participate in this and who would not well there is some criteria in here", "and some things that are difficult to work around are the students who take several ap classes", "so we looked at that", "and students who take several ap classes might find it difficult to go out on this because they would be required to come to school for their ap class okay", "so that would limit their availability to do it", "if they take one or two ap classes it will probably be good", "but if more than that i think they would find it difficult", "so those would it", "so that's what we're answering who wouldn't be able to just", "so the other thing there's attendance and there's teacher approval", "so the attendance has to meet the criteria and the teachers that they currently have have to sign off that they are they can leave the class for starting april 1st", "so any senior in the school is able to apply", "and then they have to go through the different steps", "i just have a question about the classes", "so a student is taking five classes", "right", "and maybe two of those are ap", "so greater greater than two those students wouldn't be eligible", "how does that work with the absence from the classroom in relation to participation in this project in terms of the commitment to the courses that they're taking", "they would they would still need to go to their ap classes during the day", "so they can they're not stopping their ap classes until after the ap exams", "okay okay", "so if they have two ap classes they would be in the building for two hours a day", "then during those other hours they pop up and do this externship", "we would reduce maybe the hours that they used to spend in the externship because they need to study for the ap classes and stuff like that", "but they still will be required to do a certain amount of hours", "what if they weren't taking ap classes what if they were just taking honors essentially they're ending april 1st and that will count for their school year", "third quarter is when the grades would close", "we have many seniors who get this senioritis", "really i've never heard of that", "it's hard to convince them that academics is still important at the end of the year", "so this is another opportunity for them", "and we've seen successes at so many different school systems who are currently doing this", "and kids who are coming back from these externships and saying wow that was awesome", "and then have to do a presentation", "so there will be a blog", "there's going to be a blog or a journal writing that they're going to have to do on a daily basis about what did they do at work", "and it could be somebody who works at a bank and customer relations and how did they use how to win friends and influence people and how did they do these different things and again it's really we look at it as an opportunity for that lifelong learning", "that they're gonna have these different skills that they're learning in a different way from april 1st till the end of the year", "they'll have to give a presentation to a core panel of us", "and could be a kid who was an atrisk student who wants to get on the auto body and he's going to go out there or she's going to go out there and work at a garage not get paid for this but at the same time take away a lot of different skills and how to deal with people and how to work with different types of machinery", "i thought this booklet was great", "i thought it was just so explained all of the different questions that you might have", "i like the way it's every page has got like a different title", "thank you it's concise", "and pillsbury who's not here today", "she was instrumental within this whole process", "i just had a few questions about the student the classes and all that but it sounds great", "i love the idea too of them having this oral evaluation or presentation", "yeah right", "which speaks to the high school schoolwide rubrics actually", "and gives them an opportunity to demonstrate that in a larger forum rather than with each teacher actually", "i agree with you", "the booklet is very well thought out and i thought it lays everything out so clearly", "and you can tell you've all put a lot of thought into this", "and also i mean i know you said grades would close at the end of the third term but i think that it's clear from this that this is not a frivolous month that they'll be spending and it's a very serious academic or work experience that they will have to take away significant knowledge from their experience and show that they've learned something in the process", "i think it's fabulous", "i think it's a great opportunity", "and they will have a grade that goes for that senior project as well", "and colleges are very amenable to this", "i mean if anything i think in some ways it's almost that in the workplace too because you've got that experience", "you're already building a resume behind you but gives i think in many instances kind of that one up what sets you apart", "we know that the competition between colleges and jobs is so difficult right now that you can say yes i've learned a bit from especially if it's an area that you want to continue in and if it isn't then that's also a great learning experience", "it's a great takeaway for our students as well", "it just it speaks to again i think in so many different levels that we talk about from elementary level up the real handson experience of education and learning and reminds me also of the internships now that a lot of colleges are going towards so that students do have a chance to really experience what a particular profession is", "and to do that at the high school level is wonder", "i think just a great opportunity for them", "it's an opportunity for enrichment and challenge in an area that the student is seeking knowledge about", "that might be their passion", "that might not be an area that we cover at the high school which i think is fabulous", "i did have one question", "have you talked to businesses within the community or do we have people within the community who are excited and eager to participate in this opportunity absolutely ms ellen pillsbury", "she's our goto person with this", "and we have such a plethora of resources right here from the stadium right down the street to working within the town how they can help within the town itself", "the mural that's being painted over in mansfield currently", "that something like that could happen here", "and that person has this and they look back and i remember when i was in high school i worked on that project", "so it could be really something that can build from year to year as well", "that's great", "so if a student is interested in doing this and has a particular interest in a particular profession but may not know exactly where they should go for this internship not internship for this project will you be able to assist students who express an interest but may not know exactly or is it really going to be up to the student to kind of seek this no we'll be there working with them", "and again ellen that's really one of her specialties", "right i know", "and if she doesn't have that person she knows that there's other people who are willing to help out too including this group", "we're really excited about this", "they're going to have a member of the staff as a mentor as well to help them that they can go to as a point person to try to provide guidance if they're running into difficulties", "when we talk about college and career readiness and this is really a concrete example of an experience that would really boost that exposure", "yeah great great program", "i read through the whole book and wished i was back in high school", "two questions", "do you need any pilot tools or monies that you don't have yet to get this thing off the runway and then my other question was if you could just explain to me cause i'm not very bright how the senior project grade is not factored into the gpa but if you drop out you get an f is it factored i just want to know what the risk is for the students either on an upside or a downside", "well we have applied for a grant", "i'll start out by saying that", "there is a department of education grant that is out there", "we're not sure how many schools are in competition or what amount of that we may have", "i think we'll have a little bit better of an idea as this plays out for us in some cases", "and this was one of the pieces i've been involved in senior projects in some of my past experiences", "and in some cases students had some very interesting ideas that they wanted to paint or create", "and we said to them okay how are you going to then raise the funds to be able to get the materials that you need so that is something that we're going to need to see how that plays out", "in my particular experience the students were responsible for that", "in our experience we may say no we've got some money that may be available", "i don't have that right now but i'm just saying that that might be something that would play out", "we want to take a look at what this is going to look like", "and depending again upon what the grant does we're not holding to the grant", "the grant i think will just allow us to do some things that to expand this a little bit more than what we were initially perhaps thinking that we could do", "and we'll go from there", "a little bit more training", "because there's some other things that that the state can provide as well", "so we're not looking like this is going to be anything huge or any large budgetary item for this year", "i do know that i probably will be putting in for some funding for this to be able to continue as we go along with it", "and i would say especially for whoever the person is that's going to be coordinating this", "the facilitator", "the facilitator", "this will be taking time on their part", "i mean right now it's kind of a collaborative effort", "but you really do need we really need to have that point person to be that particular individual to do that", "and so that may mean some money somewhere down the road", "because it's hard to tell how this is going to take off", "this is part of our budgetary proposal for next year", "assuming this goes", "i think one of the benefits of being here so early for your questions and consideration is that they will then have time as we go through the fall to really figure out if there are budgetary implications in the first year and what those would be", "and to answer to your grades", "yes the grades will close quarter three and the gpa will be configured at that point", "then if they do the senior project let's say they get an a it's still will not alter their gpa but it will show on the transcripts so the college will see that", "if they don't do it and get the f it's still not gonna go into their gpa but it will be shown right there on the transcript where again colleges will see it", "but gpa will close at the end of third quarter for these students", "thank you", "so just point of clarification", "you talk about the facilitator", "so are you talking about an identified educator on the on the staff of foxborough high school that will be paid like a stipend is that what your i don't know what we're going to do for this year", "cause we we want to see what happens tonight what your questions are", "okay", "i'm just going to say this", "this is only me and my head", "this is not a conversation that we've had", "but you know in the summer we were talking at our goals meeting that we almost want to sort of revamp how we approach school to career services and how valuable they are here and how much she does", "so you know currently under the attleboro partnership she's really employed four days a week", "so it's sort of part of our plan and conversation to say can we expand the available time for the school to career coordinator and maybe that's a solution", "so there's just some ideas out there that that might be part of what you might see in the future but that's a start", "and whether there would be whether it's too much for one person which maybe someone else involved we haven't gotten to that point yet in planning", "and we don't we also don't know our numbers either", "we don't know if there's going to be four kids who are really excited or one hundred and forty which really scares us", "the latter", "we think kids will", "we think kids are going to want to do this", "but some of them because of academics and because of the ap and because of other commitments they're not going to be able to do it and add something else to their plate", "well other ones might start it and then we have a certain cutoff date and they're going to say look it's not for me", "i'm going to finish off the academic year and that's okay too", "first i want to applaud you guys for bringing forward this kind of a program", "i am a big big fan of maybe what i'll call nontraditional classroom type learning", "and i was the one pushing at our summer retreat about career and just continuing to enhance our career offerings", "so i thank you guys for bringing this forward", "number two i'm delighted that laureen and tom and sue are big proponents of this and been involved because i do have a lot of confidence as i know we all do in our department chairs", "so that gives me a real great feeling of trust", "my questions are around implementation", "and i have three questions just based on your comments so far", "and maybe you can just expand", "first of all why fifty how the number of fifty students we don't know where to start", "so are we willing to take more to our conversation we're just having we're willing to take more okay so we're not capping", "we're not capping anything", "we just don't know what the what kids are going to want to do", "cause there are certain deadlines that they're going to have to follow", "and so like i said we don't know if", "so fifty is just a placeholder", "yes", "okay", "all right my second question tom you talked about whole day versus one period", "have we thought about flexibility in that i mean i'm still confused personally about the comment about the ap kids how they might have a hard time", "do we have flexibility in models if some of the ap kids for example wanna participate", "it's hard with a rotating schedule but not impossible", "and especially because of technology and education where the teachers and sue teaches ap and she can speak to what she can do", "it's going to be a really case by case", "and it might be teacher by teacher course by course in terms of what kind of flexibility", "there may be days", "i've got ap statistics", "so there may be days where a student might not need to be in the classroom", "could make up the work and that would still be okay", "but maybe in ap chemistry they need to be there for all the labs and missing it really isn't an option", "i'm sitting here with a school committee hat on of course and i can picture parents saying i want my kid to be able to participate", "and i wish there was a more flexible model", "so the more you can think about that i think would be valuable for us", "well i think it also depends sorry on the position they decided to take for their externship because if their position allows them flexibility during the day where they can come to classes and they don't start their externship till two in the afternoon or three in the afternoon we're fine", "they have to put in the hours and get approved for the externship but it doesn't have to be from seven to three", "so that's an important clarification", "we're flexible", "they don't have to do their externship during school hours", "they have to get the hours in", "but yes we are flexible with that", "we were just saying with the ap cause they're the classes are so rigorous and intense and that a lot of them have other commitments", "and some may choose out and that's great", "but i think for those who want to if we offer them things like if they can find an externship that's after hours", "my last implementation concern is around if i heard you say right the way that we would choose the kids or review the kids who want to participate is attendance and teacher recommendation", "not really teacher recommendation", "it's more teacher signing off that it's okay that they leave the class on april 1st", "teachers don't have to recommend the student", "we'll go through the whole process", "as long as their attendance okay and their teacher's okay with them leaving the class then that's what gets signed on", "usually about a c average that teachers take a look at and say yes i'm comfortable with this student signing off", "so that's one piece of it", "you have to show that you have that really that commitment to be in school so that you can also continue with us outside of school when there's perhaps less of the more formal constraints like we have and you've got to get yourself to work and back or wherever this place happens to be", "so you need to show good standing in academics and good standing in your attendance", "but then the students also have several steps that they also need to fulfill as well finding their mentor outside of school", "and again with help if they need it", "being able to make their project make a presentation as far as what they're going to be doing and what they leave behind is going to be and how that's how they're going to work toward that", "and so in some cases some students as tom has said will get to a point and say i don't want to go through it", "i'm just not going to i will stay in classes", "but i do know just in my own experience i have yet to have or have had the experience of a student receiving an f because they chose not to do the senior project", "once they got into the senior project they were into it", "and i have not had any person ever come back to say that this was the worst thing i could've ever done", "they've all come back to say that this was the best thing i could have ever done", "whether they truly enjoy the experience or this was a decision that i don't want to go in this direction and i'm really glad that i did this", "or that this is the best thing since sliced bread and i want to go in this direction", "so that they all really enjoyed that time and came back and said if i could tell seniors one thing it's to do this", "yeah once again i'm a huge advocate", "i say let's go forward right away more kids the better", "i'm just trying to think through potential hiccups or pitfalls", "and as you were going through the description the one that just the last one that gave me pause for thought was this teacher recommendation part", "and i don't know if it would make sense maybe", "i didn't read it as a teacher recommendation because i think the important detail in that conversation based on the question you asked was that this is initiated by the student who applies", "so if a student is motivated to apply for it then if their attendance is fine and the teacher is okay with it based on the student's ability to demonstrate that they are doing okay in the classroom then it would go forward", "so i see the teacher not really as recommending that a student do this but as almost a little one of the two gatekeeper stops along the way", "but it starts really with the students initiating on their own to go ahead and apply", "so that's why we're not sure of the numbers the first year because without this having been tried how many students are going to go forward into the unknown and apply to do this i would imagine after the first year when there's so much positive buzz about the experience next year you'll probably experience more kids willing to go ahead and meet that application deadline", "so i think that that's what would happen and really relying on diana's past experience with this in another community", "i think is important that the positive notes that came from it really outweigh any of the glitches that we could overcome", "so it isn't as some of our other initiatives are where teach us to recommend it's really initiated by the student which it should be on your way out of high school", "so i think that's one of the important details", "the other thing we haven't discussed is students who play a spring sport who are spring athletes may not be able to participate unless they can figure out how to do it during the day", "so if you have to be at ap courses during the day and you're playing a spring sport it starts right after two that may sandwich you in too much", "so i think sue's point that it really has to be case by case is probably the way it's going to play out", "not only the first year but in years after that depending on what they what extra curricular", "last last question for me", "do you think there's any reason that why we should maybe review a list similar to how we do field trips or anything or do you think it's something that we should just leave with diana and you i think we just have to leave it to see how they proceed", "you know diana has done that at another high school", "so i'm pretty confident when she first said last year", "i give a lot of credit firstly", "she said i'd like to do a senior project", "like great", "i love it", "bring it forward", "very good thank you", "so i think we just have to wait and see", "steve", "so this is a draft i understand that", "and item eight on the parental signature form talks about the fhs cannot directly supervise each student and that etc etc we're not liable for any injury sustained as a result of the project", "so my assumption would be there would have a go no go during the qualification process of the project so that we make sure they're not testing bungee jumping courses", "right right", "or something like that", "we'll have all that in order i would imagine", "and it had one parent's signature name as opposed to multiple parents that might have to sign it or or guardians or something like that", "i just wanted to make sure that the students and the families and the district are all safe from liability exposure and that we are keeping an eye on safety", "and can veto the project if it seems too dangerous at the outset", "absolutely", "thanks", "so what is it that you need from the committee this evening to proceed we need a vote that you would like the high school to proceed with planning for our senior project", "and then they'll go ahead and do it", "like we do everything else", "so they come back to", "we would come back when probably closer to the application time when to let you know how many kids have applied and where we are maybe a midyear application point checkin", "i think that would be great", "i think the other thing to note too is that sometimes when you hear that it starts on april 1st given that we ended solely in june this past year it feels like they're going to miss three months of school but in actuality the seniors get out a lot earlier", "so the what do you estimate the length of year six weeks", "six weeks", "so if that feels a little bit better to people", "it does feel like april 1st they're going to be gone three months", "they're really are not", "april vacation you have there too", "so that's just the right time i think to get into it", "so i'd like i'd like to make a motion that we approve the senior project as presented with a second review with the school committee may be in the march timeframe or february timeframe whatever the committee thinks is", "second", "further discussion", "seeing none all those in favor or zero", "thank you", "thank you very much", "good job putting the proposal together and so early", "it's not like i have anything else to do this summer", "ellen is incredible with this too", "thank ellen", "i'm going to be meeting with her next week anyway", "we have a lot to talk about", "but thank her this is great so nice job", "yes so this gives the seniors the earliest look at it as well", "so i give them credit cause they just said we would like to do ours early as possible", "and that doesn't always happen with people ready to go with something before school's even started", "so that just goes to show you the energy these people have", "when would be the right time to come back do you think and just tell us a little bit more march or february yeah february", "i'm thinking february because then we should know which students are going to be part of it", "yeah i think that'd be great", "thank you for all your hard work with this", "this is awesome", "thank you for your support", "thank you all very much", "we're going to move on to the timeline for special education director search", "yes benelli", "we talked about this briefly at another meeting", "as you know arlene gruber on october 1st will become the executive director of the bible collaborative of which foxborough is a member", "so she'll still be bringing good things and programs to foxborough students as the executive director of our area special education collaborative", "so that means we will be we are in the process of a director of special education search", "and so you see the timeline in front of us", "we advertised the position on july 24th", "it's been great that we had a lot of notification for her transition", "she's still here working very hard", "and we posted on our professional association websites as well", "the applications just closed last friday", "when i looked before they completely closed we had about thirty three applicants which is actually pretty good for director of special education search", "we were happy with that", "how many did you say thirty four thirty three", "i'm not sure that's entirely accurate", "i think that was the morning of because i knew it was closing and i was briefly taking a quick peak", "so as all of our administrative searches the very capable dr amy burtos our assistant superintendent will be chairing the initial screening and search", "i do not chair that", "the candidate will come to me afterwards", "so amy will be conducting the initial screening and interview team convening that team selecting candidates talking about interview questions on september 18th", "our tentative dates for candidate interviews would be september twenty three and twenty five within the same week timeframe", "and hopefully by the end of that week there will be semifinalist's names sent to me", "i would then conduct a second interview with those candidates", "and as you know this is one of the school committee hires under massachusetts regulations", "so this is one of those if you remember our workshop we just had a few weeks ago this is one of the positions that you hire at my recommendation", "so we'll be bringing a candidate hopefully to you as a school committee in the first week of october on october 7th", "we do have an interim candidate in place for however long it takes because we don't know the notification of whoever might be the final candidate", "so i do have experienced special education director who's retired who is willing to come when arlene is leaving and she will stay as long as we need her to", "she was the former director of special education in medfield and other places", "okay", "so i know the last time i had actually served on this search committee and we had two school committee member representatives", "so i guess i'm looking for some feedback from people this evening if they have an interest in participating in the survey", "that's great okay", "i'd be happy to help out", "that's fine", "okay great so perfect", "we've got our two representatives", "amy we'll be in touch", "and if you could let her know if the if these dates work for you and she can go from there", "and if i remember correctly from glen kocher", "we do not need a vote", "this is not one of your subcommittees", "this is actually you don't need a vote because this is actually a superintendent's committee", "and you're sitting to assist me in the search", "so as such under the law those meetings are not your meetings and don't have to be posted", "so that's the way we'll go", "but it's good to be open and transparent about what we're doing", "it seems like we have a consensus so great", "if i could ask a question so first of all i think it's nice for our district that our people continue to be wanted elsewhere and do well elsewhere", "good for arlene", "i know this position of special ed director is so important to so many of our parents", "sure is", "do parents have an opportunity in the process are they can they be part of the committee yes they are part of the committee", "so that's another reason", "i'm so glad you asked me that question", "that's another reason why we did not want even though we've known this since june we didn't want to conduct the search in the summer because parents aren't widely available staff", "so we would have on this not only the school committee members but we'll have a few administrators as we do", "we'll have a few teachers and we will have parents from the special education pack", "so we're assuming this timeline is good for the committee", "then i will then reach out to the special ed pack and invite them to participate", "so if parents are interested who are listening or reading they should talk to the special ed pack or talk to dr burtos no i would i would certainly just call the superintendent's office or the assistant superintendent and call the central office and indicate you'd like to have your name put on the list of people of parents who are interested in serving in the search", "and then sometimes we get just the right amount", "but sometimes we get too many people and we usually just draw names out of a hat and try to have everybody's representation at the table", "great thank you", "joe i think you've got a question", "her name is mrs mcardle", "okay all right i think we can move on right", "looks great thank you", "thank you thank you for volunteering", "we're going to move on to summer facilities work and technology update", "let's turn it over to bill", "you've now got quite the busy summer", "and instead of at first we were just going to have bill give you an update of what's happened this summer but there was so many things that i asked him if he wouldn't mind putting it all down on paper and he has willingly done", "so there is the sheets that i handed out to you doublesided but the basically we from the technology side while there's only about a half dozen bullets they're pretty substantial in in volume of work that was required", "as you know the math department requested that we move from the eno board technology which we have throughout the district for our whiteboard technology to a smart board which is really has more value in the math classrooms with its technology and its software", "so we have effectively taking all of the white boards out of those ten classes and reallocated them into other classes that didn't have them", "so number one we're not wasting anything", "we were also able to buy additional projectors for those ten classrooms", "so now we have ten fully outfitted classrooms in the high school that we didn't have previously", "we've also installed the ten smart boards right at the beginning of the year here", "the math teachers will have this as a new resource within their classrooms", "the as you know faces last year one of the grants that they supported which was a fairly expensive one was the imac video lab which is right upstairs here", "the lab really consists of it's a three room setup", "one is the control room and thanks very much to cable access who has done a tremendous amount of work redeveloping how that room will actually control", "there's a room behind that which is actually a video production room", "and part of the grant was to acquire video cameras and editing equipment that goes along with it", "and then the classroom side of it there are ten imacs that are also brand new with all the software that allows the children or the students to basically do video editing with the work projects that they do", "so they have cameras that can go out not just within that lab but they can go outside of the lab actually trying to produce things", "and as you saw last year we have a lot of talented kids within the district that can do these things", "and now we're giving some resources to do it too", "so it's a next step beyond", "we've had a minor version of this over at the ahern from number of years", "so it's actually been kind of a shame that it started there and then stops", "and now again it's back in place here", "so that was a major upgrade that's just been completed", "the last late last spring we started and they they've effectively completed at this point changing all of the computers throughout the district from xp operating system to windows", "it's about eight hundred computers that were done", "the only reason that your ahern is not done at this point is that we what we've done is we first of all used any of the new ones that we were deploying we bought with the windows seven on it", "other ones that we had just recently done in the last couple of years we bought new licenses for at the time when we bought those units we knew we were going to windows", "so we already had bought the licenses", "so we were able to basically reuse those and on the ahern we would have to go out and buy all new licenses for them", "those are the next computers being targeted for replacement", "so we are looking to basically do that in a large swoop in this next level", "hopefully if we don't make the decision to do it during the school year we'll do it at the end of this school year and do all those same time", "so the entire district will be windows seven at that point", "you do recall you have three ahern parents sitting at the table right now", "just a friendly reminder", "good progress good progress", "one of the things that we've also done was as we had committed to at the end of last year is is the high school now basically is a wireless environment", "we were able to deploy that capability throughout the entire school now", "so every classroom has it every major location will have it the auditorium the gym the cafeteria and they're fine tuning and working on that right now", "i'm sorry to keep interrupting but to me that is just huge", "i mean to have a wireless campus up here", "that's great that's great", "but one of the things that we'll be going along with that and we will actually be having discussions on the administration level very quickly here is two to complete all of our policies on how we're going to allow that deployment to work", "there are a lot of issues", "because to give you an example one of the major ones a student walks in with an iphone an ipad and a laptop", "well those are three devices that will immediately want to grab onto the wireless", "if every kid did that we would crush the network", "so while we've got the wireless network out here the next concern is obviously the bottlenecks that will be within how our data can flow through", "so we're also looking at how to upgrade that to make that work as well", "but we did a lot of upgrades this summer to go to a higher platform", "we are now at one gig platform to pretty much every computer within the school", "and we're looking to obviously upgrade the the backbone for the wireless as well to do the same which will be key", "one of the other things we were able to accomplish because we got very aggressive pricing when we went out to the wireless is we actually have acquired already all of the ip address units that we're going to need for the seventh and eighth grade at the middle school", "and so we actually are working this week they're doing the wireless set up to get the units up in the classrooms", "so we don't disturb the classrooms down", "but the next step we will be doing", "and what we're looking for is obviously a little bit more money within our budget", "so we're going kind of going through some of the things that we have to actually do some of the switch gear that will be needed for that as well", "but our hope is that by sometime mid to late fall we will actually have the seventh and eighth grade up on a wireless network as well", "so a little bit further than we thought we'd make it this year but it's one of our goals", "the other thing is in our typical mode we upgrade about two hundred and fifty computers a year", "so this year was the a few of the administrative ones in our office the taylor school the bural school and also the high school cad lab", "so all of those have been upgraded with new computers", "and again obviously all on windows seven as we did it", "and then we did obviously move a number of class room whiteboards from depending on how classes had set up", "we had to change some", "a class might've moved like a first grade class might've moved down the hall", "art class might've moved", "so we had to do some changes within the elementary level and even in the middle school", "so that's all completed as well", "so that's technology again it's a pretty i think a pretty successful summer as far as the number of items that we tried to accomplish", "there are a couple of other large things that we are working on the technology side", "one is a new phone system", "we did upgrade the or put in what we as a group which was paul bortolagi myself and randy scones had chose a the new phone system we think is going to be what we want to deploy", "and because the library was at the right stage at the right time we put the new system in there as our test place", "it seems to be working extremely well", "it's doing everything we hoped it would do", "so if that deployment is completed", "it is completed and up and running", "but if we can kind of make sure we have everything the way we want it to that will be what we use as we move through each one of the buildings", "and we do have the funding already in place", "it's pretty ingenious", "so that's town and school obviously", "yes we will do all the town buildings as well as our school buildings at the same time", "but we'll probably do start with the schools because we have the most controllable environment right now that we can go through", "on tony's side with facilities", "he really didn't have much to do this summer", "so we threw a few things at him", "the tailor generator unfortunately did go out to bid early summer", "it came in but because it was right in the middle of the summer we really we didn't get any bids at all", "when we contacted the people that took them out was just that they just didn't have enough time", "so we've put that back out to bid and that we expect to be in september 11th", "we've gotten almost three times as many people already interested", "so we'll get a good bid on it this time", "it will just be a little bit interesting as far as the schedule and how i have to do it", "cause obviously there is a cutover at some point", "and so it would have to be on a weekend or holiday or something", "as part of our security system what we've gone through you'll see on all of the elementary levels is we've installed keyless entrance locks", "so that any place that a teacher has to come in or where they're going out to a recess area instead of having keys the teachers have their own codes", "each teacher has a separate single code for themselves", "and so now we don't have the fear of lost keys or issues that way", "and they're the only ones that can come back in that door", "the door locks immediately when they leave but they push their code and they come back in", "we know who comes in and who goes out", "it's a little bit like i said a part of our upgrades as far as all of our security side", "but that's been done on all three of the elementaries", "also the elementaries we're concerned about the in their playgrounds the level of mulch", "the mulch is actually sterilized mulch", "it's not the stuff that you'd use at your house that pads underneath all the equipment", "so we brought in actually one hundred and eighty yards of mulch and did all three elementaries", "and i think we did a fairly good job as far as really beefing that up", "so that again should be a little bit safer as far as the children are playing within those playgrounds", "on the igo we've really gone through the it's one of the older buildings relative to its heating and air conditioning systems", "and we went through every single unit within that building and cleaned them by taking them totally apart which was making a huge difference", "and we're doing that through each building", "now we've actually gone through the ahern and done most of that already", "and we'll be going through building by building", "the middle school", "one of the all these things that are bolded are the bigger items that are being done", "but we ran into a problem late last spring with the hot water system", "we noticed with one of our big tanks that was leaking", "thirteen years old", "ten years is usually kind of the lifespan of most of these", "so we actually have replaced the entire hot water system this summer with new boilers and new tanks and everything", "and they're just about complete actually", "they're wiring up the electrical tomorrow and so by the end of this week that should be up and running a one hundred", "very impressive system that tony kind of worked out", "it's the same manufacturer that manufactures all of our boilers that we go with now which is a higher end much more efficient unit", "we really kind of looked at all of our gym floors", "as you know we have three schools that have wooden gym floors", "the igo which we rent out quite a bit during the winter time to different organizations the high school which obviously has the large gym and the ahern has to fullsize wood gyms", "we had been doing the high school because we had only replaced it a couple of years ago", "we've been putting a couple of coats on it to try to build that up", "but these other two buildings hadn't been done in years", "and so this summer we went through and did all three buildings", "so all the gym floors really look fantastic", "they're about as bright and shiny and clean as you can possibly get them", "and they really have a nice surface to them again", "so that again when you're playing on these things with sneakers and stuff like that you want a certain level of grip and stuff and you really will have that back now with them", "on the middle school side there was a lot of safety issues that were brought up by one of the insurance companies", "one thing that kind of amazed me and i guess i should take blame for it cause i was involved when we built the ahern but none of the sprinklers in the gyms had any kind of safety covers", "and so i'm amazed in thirteen years that a kid hadn't figured out how to throw a ball and hit one of them", "so we put safety cages on all of those", "those are on protected", "we did safety straps on all of the baskets where the metal wires come down", "because again if one of those broke someone could obviously get hurt", "so we would put the new safety gear there", "in one of the inspections the board of health picked up an issue within our cafeteria freezer where the baked on enamel paint seemed to be starting to come apart", "so we emptied out that freezer this summer and we had new panels put in on the ceiling there and put that back together", "so that came up very good", "the actual track resurfacing was scheduled to start today but i think due to fears of rain that backed off", "but with a lot of issues obviously between football games and other things that are gonna happen over the next couple of weeks it's the intention is to have it done within the next two weeks", "and that would be a repair of all of the bad spots and then a double overlay of the entire track", "and then we paint it", "one of the issues that we are going to face there and one of the reasons i think the track even though it's lasted quite a while we really need to put some new policies in place because you know vehicles drive on it", "people are out there with bikes and stuff like that things that really damage one of these type of tracks", "so we're gonna get some new signage try to do some more you know teaching as far as what will maintain that track and how to keep it in good shape going forward", "the again major air compressors and stuff like that", "we went through and replaced a few of them to really kind of upgrade how the system works", "and i think on the ahern the final thing which is a pretty big item was the keyboarding lab that we are totally redoing", "all the equipment is in", "and they're expected to be here on september 3rd", "so probably that full week of installation and set up", "it's a music lab", "this is the music lab yup", "and so hopefully you know we'd hoped to have it done before school actually started but working with the music department they had no concerns about the fact that the first week really wouldn't be as something that they would normally use the lab for anyway so", "but when that's done are we going to christen it or a sort of announce to the world that here it is cause i know there's a lot of parents out there that were very happy about this", "well i think typically what they would do is probably one of the open the early open houses", "it would be something that everybody obviously does see", "i'm sure that the music department would love to show it off", "sure", "and the music department has been very very involved in this whole process as far as working out the spec and going through process", "so they're i think very proud of it", "and the equipment that's coming out of there there are pieces of it that are still good that will be coming over to the high school that they're going to supplement some of the things that they use here", "so anything that's worth keeping will be kept obviously", "anything that's of a level that's not worth", "and again most of it's very old", "so there are only certain components that will be worth bringing forward", "on the high school as you all know and i've seen as you drive in the turf installation the turf field is in process right now", "they have pretty much removed all of the excess material which has been put out back", "so that will be used as part of the baseball field work", "and they're still targeted for october 15th to be completed", "we were very very fortunate", "the winner of the bid actually the carpet manufacturer themselves has come up with a new product that is actually it's a combination of the product that we picked and an another piece that's a little bit better in its fabric and how it will hold up", "and they've only got one installation on the western part of massachusetts", "they have number of them across the country but they only have one other one in western massachusetts", "and they have basically offered to us to upgrade our entire field which would be about a twenty thousand additional cost to us to do it for nothing", "so that they can use us as kind of a showplace or example of what this new turf would look like", "the advantage to us which i kind of remind everybody on our side is we did the same thing with viessmann boilers which we use throughout our district now", "and viessmann has been one of our best partners", "they work with us on everything", "if there's longer than extended warranties they've done everything", "this is something that we have no real knowledge on", "i mean i'll be the first one to tell you i know nothing about turf and i'm learning everything everyday", "tony has better knowledge than i do cause he was involved in hanover with their new turf field but having the manufacturer willing to stand with us and know that if they don't really work with us on this then it's not going to be the showplace they want it to be i think is going to be critical to being a successful installation", "that's true", "we're very excited about that one", "as joe already mentioned we were fortunate enough to pick up a double oven pizza oven and our manager here after thirty years says she thinks she can finally retire which we told her she can't now because this is the one thing that she's always wanted", "and it's actually we actually did do a small test thing with the manufacturer from original pizza and the quality of what comes out of this compared to what we were able to do in our old equipment is tremendous", "even the ones that are oh what's the glutenfree pizzas even those pizzas which typically people don't really like were tasted decent", "so i think it's really in the difference on how these ovens work that makes a difference", "so that's installed and actually original pizza will be coming in i believe in the end of the first week", "and they're going to do a thing for the students at the high school", "so there'll be samples of pizza and stuff like that", "so they're going to kind of reintroduce to the students what we are now capable of doing here", "nice", "the again as i said the gym floor has already been done here", "and then as you probably noticed or may not even notice because it just kind of blends nicely is we've repainted all the outside doors on the building and basically made them the same color as all the windows from the blue", "so that really kind of all ties in now", "instead of the bright blue which made it still look like the original building which it is", "but it really to me just spiffed up the envelope with the school and made it look like wow it really was", "i couldn't believe when i first drove up and noticed that and i didn't even know they were doing it but i'm who painted the doors", "so that's why they make a good team was bill's idea and tony's execution", "and bam it had happened overnight", "it's great", "the other thing thanks for your support", "we did pick up the pickup truck for the maintenance department which does have a full plough system", "so i think that's going to be very handy during the winter months when we do have the issues that way", "the forty two two way radios are already programmed", "they're outright now being engraved", "so those will be pushed out throughout the district so that we have internal communications that is better than what we had", "and when someone walks into this building if deb walks in with hers just switches the channel and anybody that she wants to talk to within the high school she'll have access to at that point as well", "huge part of our emergency plans that we went over last year", "eliminates the whole cell phone thing which don't work well within these buildings", "and then the final thing we actually also we've had some issues down at the bus yard and we were able to acquire a new shed from reeds ferry", "so we have a really nice little office shed down there", "now the old one was falling apart and it really gives the bus drivers a place to pick up their stuff in the morning and kind of meet", "and we're also going to be moving all the electrical services inside of that as well to make it a better down there", "so as i said tony really kind of took vacation during the summer but it was managed managed to get a lot of these things done", "so we're in good shape", "this is a great list but can you just distinguish the bold from the nonbold the bold are kind of the bigger items", "meaning cost well it's cost and effort to get them done", "what's the minimum of the cost is there one regarding no there was no real minimum but they were it was just as far as importance wise", "just moving classroom whiteboards is less important than actually doing the", "okay so it's not a real distinction", "okay all right great thank you", "thank you for that update", "that's important for the public to know and understand what what has been going on during the summer as all of these updates as students return to classrooms", "yeah and i would be kind of remiss to say this is on top of the normal work that's done", "so as you notice every single floor has been done", "the custodial maintenance staff has done a phenomenal job cleaning these buildings all back up", "a lot of painting has been done within different classrooms that needed to be touched back up or entire rooms that needed to be repainted", "you know every floor has been stripped waxed", "carpets have been cleaned", "so again they do a phenomenal job when you consider the fact that we've got pretty close to six hundred thousand square feet of space that has to be done", "that's all being done at the same time that obviously we're trying to do", "this is kind of above and beyond list", "well that was the word i was going to use", "i mean the longer you went through this", "this is phenomenal", "i mean i was sitting here thinking we're fortunate to have our press colleagues in the room", "i mean i'd love them to share with the public a summary of everything you guys have done", "i think to me it's a testament of you being here bill with your background and having picked a great maintenance leader and tony", "i mean this is", "i wrote down four words as you were going through it", "you've touched on technology security safety and facilities", "and it's not just cleaning the floors", "i mean this is significant", "i don't know if you guys feel the same", "oh definitely i agree totally", "i'm very impressed with this", "so excellent job though", "i think for me one of the things i'm going to say tomorrow when our staff comes back is that we talk about teaching and learning all the time but we also care to the same level of detail what the environment is like what the physical", "is it a good place to work is it as psychologically and physically an exciting place for kids to learn and for staff to work and all of these things matter when it comes to that", "and so we pay as much attention to detail in the area facilities than we do in instruction", "i agree with you", "i mean if we're going to continue to ask more of our staff and expect more of our kids then we owe it to them to have all of this there too", "you have to give them the right tools to both to teach and to learn and you can't teach and learn in an environment that is substandard and ours is fantastic", "so thanks to bill and his team it's great", "thank you so much", "all right", "we're going to move to school committee vote to approve the twenty million one hundred and thirty two thousand and fourteen school district goals that everybody has in their packet", "yes we spoke the other day", "i spoke with katie the other day because we these are this is the newest draft of the goals that you formulated in july with us as an administrative team", "but one thing that's come to light since then is that the department of ed now expects us to put in ratings", "five ratings for every professional staff member all teachers administrators and other people that come under the new massachusetts educator evaluation system", "and so it's a rating on each of the four broad standards and then an overall rating", "so what we discovered they now have decided on a mid august deadline", "so we had to put in ratings for all of our all of our teachers and our administrators by about a week to ten days ago", "because of their timeline the typical superintendent evaluation timeline is no longer going to work because i will be one of the few people that doesn't have any ratings this year in because if you don't put them in which i can't because my evaluation isn't until september then i forget whether i'm going to be listed as either not rated or not evaluated", "i think it's not rated at this time", "so the only suggestion i have which has come to light since we met in early july and i did think that maybe they would be they would take the majority of all of our ratings and then after the fact we could just say oh and by the way here's the five ratings for the superintendent", "but they are not flexible in that at this time whatever ratings you put in according to their deadline is that's it", "and you can't access it after that", "but this is the first time they've ever done that", "so they too are on a learning curve with the new evaluation system and how they're going to collect their data", "so if that turns out to continue to be true annually then that last bullet under superintendent's performance that really to be timely with the department of ed's reporting mechanism the overall composite would have to be done by june", "and the public evaluation would have to be by july or a month sooner either", "and so those two last months should either say junejuly or mayjune", "so i think i put it out there for that before you vote", "to vote on this with those changes otherwise", "and this is not unique because most superintendents are not the evaluation is not completed before school gets out but you're going to see all of us shifting in the future to accommodate the department's timeline", "so if we did june and then what by july 31st we'd be in compliance with", "yes going to be in august", "amy worked pretty hard with erica who does all of our data on the uploading of that", "but there were at the last minute there were a few things that they have said no they're not going to accept later", "i would suggest the junejuly", "i just think that there's a lot going on with the elections in may and the organization", "and if we don't really have this town meeting and i don't know", "but i'm open i just want to throw that out", "i would agree with you that june and july seem to be a workable timeframe", "there's a lot going on in may and june", "so my evaluation does have to be public", "so if you think about it we only meet in july for our goal setting retreat", "so we'd have to maybe shift that here and have the portion of the meeting televised that is my evaluation", "so there's a lot of gears that we'd have to think about", "could we do a late july evaluation and have it be a separate meeting from the goal setting meeting though it's up to you", "possibly think about that", "yeah", "because that would make it just separate yeah", "what do you think steve just a question to your point about the junejuly schedule", "deb as the superintendent what months are best for you administratively and your staff we're busy all year", "we all have vacations and staff has vacations", "we are here all year long i think that i", "just a little inter interruption to the administrative work", "i just was curious", "there is little i mean the end of july is is the best time for me i learned", "i waited until august to take a week", "it didn't work out quite great but i was thinking of doing a little bit earlier but it's up to you and we could set it for the third week of july", "there's plenty of flexible time", "it's really i think you as a committee have to decide the way the year runs", "how do you envision i like the idea of the entire school year being done", "and then i was thinking about how things have gone over the course of the school year", "it's just my opinion", "right because don't forget the composite is due by june", "which means everyone has to get those evaluations to me before june which means may", "or june one june three", "but i mean yeah", "yeah the work is incumbent on us to do a little sooner but i don't know why we couldn't", "and then maybe plan to present the composite", "toward the end of july that'd be fine", "consensus of the committee", "do we need to vote on that or motion to vote well you're going to be you're going to be moving to approve your the school district goals as amended", "so this will be one of the amendments", "does anybody have any other comments they want to make about the goals well if i may i think the edits that we've i mean just for the benefit of the public and i think i remember doing this in the past we sit here and we talk about our goals but the public doesn't have the access to the record", "so i think what we've done is just kind of a quick review", "so if i can just take a minute", "i would summarize by saying our goals have not changed a whole lot from year to year", "we're consistent", "we have five categories", "communication community relations student achievement financial management policy development and superintendents performance", "to me katie some of the highlights we're going to continue to maintain our annual school district report card plan which we instituted last year", "i think that's great", "if i recall the next one in mind that i remember we put a special emphasis on this year is looking at an updated technology plan and the implications for academic achievement", "generally speaking i think the rest of our student achievement results or goals stay the same", "i don't think i remember steve and tina and katie help me i don't think i remember a lot of changes in financial management or policy development", "and then we just talked about updated dates for superintendent performance", "so i guess i would kind of summarize for the public if it ain't broke don't fix it", "i think our i think our goals are pretty similar", "we've updated a couple of key areas of emphasis", "all right that's great bruce thank you", "i think that captures", "don't forget this will be posted on the website as well", "once it's approved right we always have our committee goals", "yep as soon as you've got them we'll put them right up", "they will be accessible to the public", "any other comments about", "just to clarification if i may", "on page one last bullet continue the curriculum review cycle to support student achievement and to ensure alignment with state and national standards", "progress report annually", "i'm really happy with the goals because when folks get to see this you'll see that we have a lot of either measurement goals and milestones written down right here or if they aren't definite milestones or measurements they're what we're calling updates", "so that that can be measured or be called out as being absent", "if for some reason that they're not updated", "i just didn't see a measurement or an update or don't understand when we do that", "that is i literally don't know when we do that", "maybe you can help me", "the curriculum review cycle that one bullet that you", "yeah does that happen usually it's january or february", "amy brings the review cycle that was voted previously and either recommends keeping with it", "if you remember you might not remember but people who are in last year there was a change last year that amy recommended flipflopping the science with the social studies because we're waiting for the science national standards to come out and social studies is ready for review", "so that was her recommendation this past year", "and that is much more timely", "so even though you vote the regular six year cycle every once in a while something comes from on high at the state national level or from where we are in the process", "and it just makes more sense to tweak it a little bit", "so usually that's january or february", "yeah perfect thanks", "good point steve though i think about the measurement of our goals", "yeah i marked them all", "i think i have like eight on the first page and they're all over the place here", "great", "okay so do i have a motion to accept the foxborough public schools school district goals for twenty million one hundred and thirty two thousand and fourteen as amended i'll make that motion", "move to accept our school district goals as amended", "and only because mr udon's having a drink of water i will second", "any further discussion", "all those in favor or zero", "okay and now we're going to move on to other matters", "oh i always have something on me", "i'm going to turn it over to amy in a minute because she has a really great overview of what's happening in the next few days for staff", "but our opening of school for all of our staff is tomorrow morning", "so we'll walk them all of our staff back here at the high school and the auditorium", "and we always look forward to opening day", "people come back kind of a lot of verve and refreshed", "for the most part", "it was a short summer though i will say", "and it's nice to see everyone again and start off a new exciting school year", "so we'll see everyone here tomorrow", "and the committee as always is invited to attend our opening day", "and last week on monday we had administrative retreat and that is a day where our we call it the full administrative team", "so it's not just the central office and the principals", "the assistant principals it's the department heads", "it's the curriculum directors", "it's the team facilitators of special education", "all of those all of those people which were about thirty actually we go offsite for the day and we engage in activities that engage us in collective thought and planning for the future", "what do we think what are we trying to do how can we best do it it's a day where we usually get a lot done and we did", "so for that that was a week ago monday", "i would like to thank the kraft organization jes stevenson who's their director of community outreach and new business", "dan murphy who's a vicepresident and mr kraft", "because we didn't budget for something like this before", "in the last couple of years we've had to", "and as you know we invest in our staff and salaries and we don't have a lot of budget for this type of thing", "so they really did step forward and allow us to use one of their suites for our ministry of retreat provided breakfast and lunch at a really very very low minimal charge for us", "so they really worked with us to help support that", "and i want to thank them for that", "we have done that in the past", "and we went back there again this year", "so thank you to them", "to the kraft organization and also to cbsc because we had a small budget for teachers new teacher orientation but they have worked with they really worked well with us to provide a really nice part of the professional development for the new teachers and orientation for them", "and it's nice that we're able to keep those activities in town because that's what defines us", "and many times in other communities they have to go outside i don't know a hotel give them a cheaper rate for some of these things", "and we're lucky enough to have the support within our own community to stay here", "so i want to thank those organizations", "so we had a great new teacher orientation and we welcome it", "we are welcoming nineteen new teachers which is our biggest crop in the six years i've been back", "and many more support staff educational assistants and other people", "so it's a nice refreshing time and they'll all be back for the next three days without children as the students arrive after labor day", "but we do spend these three days really preparing to welcome the students back being ready to go", "so three days of professional development and i'm going to turn it over to amy to tell you a little bit about what everybody's doing the next few days", "it's going to be busy to start with", "one of the things that all staff will be part in is a training on darkness to light which is darkness to light stewards of children", "and it's adults protecting children from sexual abuse", "that is a training that everyone from teachers to educational assistants to school bus drivers crossing guards everyone will be involved in that training", "and that is something that we have had five of our own staff members become trained and they are going to then provide that training for the district", "so that is part of our commitment to work in partnership with the community to reach the tipping point for the ymca", "and it really is a critically important program", "so every staff member will have a halfday training", "so out of the two days the other side of that half day will be pearson inform which you very generously supported which is an electronic platform for really looking at student over time and monitoring their progress as part of response to intervention", "and that is a huge implementation that will take place starting on that day", "and we had eighteen of our own staff members that were willing to be trained", "they've come in the summer and worked with me", "and in addition to that and they are working with me to provide that training to all of our staff members", "so it's really powerful when you have your own colleagues working with each other to provide that training", "because they're really the ones that know about all of the assessments that we use and how to drill down and look at student data in order to really change and do what's right for kids in classrooms", "so those are something that all staff will be taking part in", "in addition to that there was a ton of curriculum work that was done this summer", "so there's curriculum updates we're in full implementation of the new common core state standards for math and ela", "mcast reflects that", "now with that full transition in addition to the curriculum work that is going with just the state standards as you can recall we have the new maths textbook that was going to be implemented grade six through the high school in order to meet those standards", "so we have a lot of training that will take place starting in well this week with the math", "and then there really are lots of other things that kind of tie into either the new standards or even the educator evaluation system", "a lot going on but i think that with everything that's new it's exciting that we have so much of it that's provided by our own staff", "and that really is a testament to the work that they do over the summer", "it is enormous the amount of hours that they put in for curriculum work and to be able to also step up and take that leadership role in training the colleagues that's hard", "it's hard to learn something new and then also be willing to take that risk and say i'll step up and train my colleagues at the same time", "so i really appreciate them stepping up for that", "amy i have a question", "are they once the staff members who are trained to provide this professional development are they then available throughout the year sort of as a sounding board or as a resource for teachers if they have questions about that topic going forward yes so as an example to that the trainers that are doing the pearson inform which is the platform we will through the professional development committee as well as the technology steering committee talk about well how else can we support it starts with the evaluation on wednesday and thursday", "how can we the evaluation how can we support you in the next three months how can we support you over the course of the year we take that feedback from them", "and then we have what we call justintime workshops", "i'm going to staff meetings as well to provide updates", "but those people that are trainers are the goto people", "and then they'll also help with any justintime workshops that are after school hours that will provide training too", "great thank you", "that's wonderful i'm really impressed too with this darkness to light training", "i wonder how many other districts provide this kind of training because and to know that everyone all staff are going to be trained in this because this is not always recognized in the classroom", "and there's so many other areas that are our students are in", "i spoke to tony kelsey person at the ymca for this just two days ago and i don't think many i think some districts like us this we've been in partnership with them for two years in this issue but like us we train some key personnel the mental health services teams school nurses secretaries administrators but to commit to train all of your staff members is huge", "and i think we might be the first in this area but we're hoping that that helps other communities reach their tipping point", "because let's face it we see kids all the time", "so if anybody should be trained", "and you never know who's going to see a sign or symptom that we previously didn't have the expertise to recognize", "it's not always the teachers", "it could be somebody in aftercare who we have already trained by the way it could be the school bus driver", "so we really believe that we need to commit to that", "so it is you can imagine our time for professional development is tight but we felt it was that important that we should commit to it", "and we committed to that last fall that when we brought teachers back in august this year we would do that", "so that's we were pretty happy that we're finally able to achieve that", "i just need to commend amy because putting that schedule together is monstrous work and making sure everybody's covered into something really productive and meaningful to do especially in a year with that we have defined as the year of focus believe it or not", "i mean it sounds like we're exploding all over the place with things and we are but for our administrative retreat we actually read the book focus by mike schmoker which is elevating the essentials to improve to radically improve student learning", "and the essentials really are focusing on what we teach a consistent rigorous curriculum how we teach it our instructional strategies and authentic literacy just being able to read write speak and listen and communicate across all subject areas", "so it was we had a revelation during the administrative team retreat where we parsed through the book focus because everything there's so much going on now and most of the pressures are coming from outside our own organization", "so how are we going to focus in the age of more and more and more so we decided that this book was important enough by the end of the day they said do you really think we can do this you really think we can pare things down and really focus on these because there's so much research shows if you focus on those three", "sounds like simple things", "but the most important things that students really do well in an organization really a school organization really does better", "so believe it or not it's going to be the year of the focus", "and we're going to try very very hard to pare everything down", "so for example we talk about these new technologies but if a new technology is not in service of those three things those three areas of focus then they're not for us right now", "so we're going to use that focus to really make decisions about everything else", "so that's what we came to the conclusion that we can pare things down", "and if we have the will and the commitment which we do so we'll let you know how we do", "could be the year of a little bit more focus or could be the year a lot more focus", "we'll see but it's timely", "so wish us luck", "good luck", "i think i think the schedule looks terrific", "it's so impressive", "i think you guys really do a nice job kicking off the school year effectively", "and i think that sets the tone and having been at a few of these kickoff meetings and i will try to come tomorrow if i can", "wonderful", "i just think you do a nice job welcoming the staff back", "and when they look at the professionalism of the agenda and the thoughtfulness i think it's a it does set the tone so thank you amy", "if i recall a couple of years ago you started school with no power", "we did two years ago", "we grew way ahead knock on wood but it started with two days of no power", "it wasn't my best look", "last year we did have power", "so i'm hoping for two in a row", "it looks like the weather forecast is good", "so hopefully i haven't jinxed us", "thank you", "anything else under other matters for anybody", "i just had one idea katie", "and debbie brought up the krafts and how they've been such good partners of ours", "and i know the town has its own issues at us to work through but certainly from a school committee perspective and the school's perspective they have continued to be great partners", "and bill taken us through an update earlier of the turf field", "i just wonder if we might consider inviting them at some point to come and knowing that they help sponsor the nfl grant that's made this possible", "we were starting to talk about i don't know if you call it a ribbon cutting or an opening ceremony for the mini dedication", "there is no dedicated", "let's say it's a ribbon cutting and definitely to invite mr kraft", "so we'll be getting that out", "so when we have a better idea of when it would be but it'd be good to give him a little notice and people in talent trips up committee who works so hard to start that initiative four years ago and school committee has so generously supported the majority of the funding for it", "so i think we would like a public ribbon cutting for the new field if you are so inclined", "that's a great idea bruce", "i mean we can't do this alone", "we have to partner with so many different entities and we do certainly appreciate and are thankful for all those willing participants out in the community that do help us be a better district", "so thank you i think that's a great idea", "absolutely", "okay so good luck tomorrow", "thank you", "before we adjourn sounds like it's going to be an exciting time", "unfortunately i'm not going to be able to to be there but i know we'll have representation from the school committee", "and i'm a very excited very excited for our next meeting where we hear how the", "we'll let you know how the opening went", "okay so we are being eight hundred and twenty five we are going to be entering into executive session for the purpose of discussing negotiating strategies for nonunion personnel superintendent superintendent of schools", "the committee will not be returning to open session", "so we need a roll call to go into executive session", "bruce", "aye", "chair says aye steve aye tina aye", "okay thank you very much", "thank you"], "name": ["SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00005.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00006.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00007.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00008.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00009.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00010.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00011.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00012.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00013.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00014.flac", "SCAug26/SCAug26/SCAug26_DOT_flac_00015.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "Uncondit1956.flac", "identifier": "Uncondit1956", "text_document_id": "Uncondit1956.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [5910, 8630, 4993, 1933, 7849, 3413, 12610, 4713, 8650, 5950, 4980, 10120, 13590, 5000, 5230, 7310, 5233, 3040, 10320, 4763, 5943, 9350, 4280, 10643, 10163, 7550, 3683, 8320, 7570, 3193, 5353, 2860, 8243, 3730, 2953, 2743, 2070, 3990, 3713, 4230, 12813, 9812, 6793, 4590, 4843, 6110, 6530, 6413, 1630, 3573, 4150, 7960, 4603, 5360, 6940, 5073, 6080, 5933, 2630, 6423, 15113, 1023, 3930, 2970, 5183, 5383, 5620, 6922, 7573, 7323, 9333, 8260, 11323, 6470, 12333, 4813, 8110, 6623, 10840, 5823, 12190, 5943, 12140, 12383, 9600, 15220, 4240, 6470, 3720, 16783, 5970, 10090, 10480, 5770, 5400, 10370, 7030, 4540, 2930, 4473, 6850, 4890], "label": ["these are the proud hills of the state of virginia in the springtime of one thousand nine hundred and fifty six", "spring time beckoning to a small boy urging him to wonder with the wind to the farm perhaps over the pasture fence to catch a calf", "not an easy thing because after all a calf's a youngster like himself", "ride him sure", "well what's a day without a little rough and tumble when a boy needs comfort there's always home and mother and father", "this is the world of randy kerr of oakton virginia", "typical except for one thing randy was the first child to receive an injection of salk polio vaccine in the field trials in one thousand nine hundred and fifty four", "much however had preceded this moment when randy kerr made history", "in the allout fight against polio led by the national foundation for infantile paralysis there were many years of struggle and heartbreak", "parents lived in fear of polio's sudden attack and the tragic aftermath", "thousands upon thousands of children and adults fell prey to the crippler", "march of dimes funds were needed everywhere needed desperately by patients needed by an army of scientists who searched for a preventive", "then in one thousand nine hundred and fifty four a vaccine to prevent paralytic polio developed by dr jonas salk a grantee of the national foundation was tested in the largest field trials in medical history", "finally april 12th one thousand nine hundred and fifty five salk vaccine safe effective", "the next challenge commercial production of the polio vaccine in quantity", "a huge task a complex process all detailed in this book it's officially called a protocol", "here the manufacturer records every step in the production of one lot of vaccine", "the first requirement trained scientists and technicians", "their every action is important starting with the scrub up and the equipment they use gets it scrub up too a scalding steam bath for fifteen minutes", "when it comes out it's completely sterilized ready for the big job ahead", "vital to the production of the vaccine are monkeys from the far east given the best of care", "meanwhile another basic ingredient of the polio vaccine is being prepared a rich nourishing liquid called medium one hundred and ninety nine", "some sixty eight different elements go into medium one hundred and ninety nine", "each is carefully checked weighed and combined according to the formula and when all is thoroughly blended the medium's tested for absolute sterility", "why this elaborate preparation into medium one hundred and ninety nine will go monkey kidney tissue first carefully minced by hand", "in these bottles the monkey kidney tissue grows getting its nourishment from the rich medium one hundred and ninety nine", "for six days the bottles rock and the tissue grows", "then because all the nourishment in the medium is exhausted half is siphoned off to be replaced by fresh medium but with a difference", "the difference a big one is that here for the first time live polio virus is planted in the medium", "three different strains of polio virus are added", "the completed vaccine will protect against all three types of paralytic polio", "and once more the bottles rock", "in four days the virus so minute yet so lethal multiplies two hundred and fifty to one thousand times", "another stage in the complex production of vaccine has been reached", "the polio virus solution is ready for harvesting", "the endless testing has now begun", "a titration test", "it measures the amount of live virus present in the solution", "this test is made seven different times during production", "next filtration a vitally important process", "first the virus solution goes through these metal tubes containing porcelain filters then through sheets of asbestos to strain out all kidney tissue and remove any stray bacteria", "more tests rabbits are inoculated to make sure that no b virus a dangerous but nonpolio virus is in the solutions", "guinea pigs too receive injections to make certain that the solutions are free of tuberculosis bacilli", "finally the climax of production inactivation", "the power of the polio virus to infect man will be utterly destroyed", "the colorless pungent chemical formaldehyde will deal the deadly blow to the polio virus", "for sixty six hours in a warm incubator room the inactivation process continues", "then what remains can only do good provide humans with protection from paralytic polio", "a chapter ends", "the enemy of man is now ready to become his servant", "at every step of the way checks and doublechecks", "this technician is working on a tissue culture safety tests double check on the complete inactivation of the virus", "four such tissue culture tests are conducted on every batch of vaccine", "behind this door the final phase of production it calls for a giant tank", "into it will go the three types of inactivated polio virus solution combined here for the first time", "the solutions are first filtered on the way into the pooling tank and twice later", "additional chemicals complete and preserve the vaccine then the preparation is mixed for five hours", "at the end of that time the poliomyelitis vaccine is complete but testing is not", "two animal tests are performed", "one on white mice injected with vaccine is called the lcm tests", "and the live monkey potency test monkeys received poliomyelitis vaccine then are observed and examined to be sure the vaccine is potent enough to cause formation of polio fighting antibodies in humans", "more tests", "a sterility test the sixth of its kind is performed", "it takes time and infinite care", "only vaccine found completely free of bacteria is approved for the next step", "that step is putting vaccine into bottles under completely sterile conditions", "these are the bottle which finally will find their way to doctors offices and clinics all over the country", "even as they reach the end of the production line other tests are in progress and samples are sent to the government", "no vaccine can leave the pharmaceutical house until all tests by the manufacturer and the government are completed satisfactorily", "the protocol is finished then sent to the national institutes of health for government approval required by law", "in bethesda maryland the national institutes of health is a vast center of medical progress the main research arm of the united states public health service", "in the office of dr roderick murray chief of the division of biologic standards the manufacturer's protocol is first reviewed", "then dr murray summons two scientists from his staff each is given a copy of the protocol which he will study carefully checking every process every test for consistency", "at the same time another vital judgment is being made in the laboratories of the national institutes of health", "here a sample from every batch of vaccine is received then subjected to a whole battery of complex scientific tests", "a sterility test confirming those of the manufacturer is carried out", "a tissue culture tests on the vaccine sample again substantiating tests already made by the manufacturer", "living tissue is inoculated with poliomyelitis vaccine incubated then carefully examined", "the monkey test one of the most important tests twenty monkeys are involved in the testing of every lot of vaccine and each receives three injections from the manufacturers sample", "the purpose once again to confirm the safety and effectiveness of the polio vaccine", "these are just some of the painstaking review and testing procedures of the national institutes of health each contributing to the final judgment and recommendation on every lot of vaccine", "once the public health service authorizes its release the polio vaccine can begin to protect american youngsters", "in one thousand nine hundred and fifty five over ten million children received one or more injections of salk vaccine including this boy the president's own grandson david eisenhower", "and now like millions of boys and girls across the nation david too is protected against paralytic polio free to play and enjoy the delights of summertime with the president his grandfather", "from the united states public health service a report on these vaccinations in one thousand nine hundred and fifty five by the distinguished former surgeon general dr leonard a scheele", "as we enter the second year of widescale use of the salk polio vaccine it's my very pleasant duty to report to you the results of polio vaccinations today on the councilor's findings on the effectiveness of vaccine add up to good news indeed", "we had an especially good opportunity to study effectiveness last year", "here is a very simple chart which indicates how the vaccine worked during one thousand nine hundred and fifty five", "it is based on reports from twenty two states and new york city", "among vaccinated children as you can see the attack rate for paralytic polio was only sixty three per one hundred thousand while among the unvaccinated their attack rate was two hundred and ninety two for one hundred thousand almost four times as high", "the studies involved about eight and one half million children whose ages range from five to eleven years", "even though most of the vaccinated children they had only one injection instead of the full dosage of three the vaccine was found to be about seventy eight effective", "put in another way the boys and girls who received at least one injection of vaccine had about four times as much protection as those without it", "we can all be proud of the salk vaccine brought about by american scientists and american giving", "we can all share in the hope that this victory will lead to many more in the years ahead", "for a maximum protection from paralytic polio three inoculations the second given not less than two weeks after the first the third not less than seven months later", "your child or any member of your family eligible for polio vaccine in your community should be vaccinated now", "vaccination now will save lives from death or paralysis this year", "make use of increasing supplies of vaccine", "help your child grow up strong and straight free from crippling polio", "youngsters like david eisenhower like polio pioneer randy kerr are part of a bright new future", "a future which would see the unconditional surrender of infantile paralysis"], "name": ["Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956_DOT_flac_00005.flac", "Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956_DOT_flac_00006.flac", "Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956_DOT_flac_00007.flac", "Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956_DOT_flac_00008.flac", "Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956_DOT_flac_00009.flac", "Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956_DOT_flac_00010.flac", "Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956/Uncondit1956_DOT_flac_00011.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "West_Coast_Chamber_-_Early_Bird_Breakfast_September_2017.HD.flac", "identifier": "West_Coast_Chamber_-_Early_Bird_Breakfast_September_2017", "text_document_id": "West_Coast_Chamber_-_Early_Bird_Breakfast_September_2017.HD.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [1600, 3700, 4900, 3610, 5880, 5030, 5150, 5313, 7917, 6910, 833, 980, 8670, 10095, 7875, 2150, 2290, 10640, 3340, 3140, 6660, 9610, 2870, 19913, 6042, 5853, 4540, 3710, 3400, 3413, 1332, 863, 833, 833, 3537, 990, 4960, 5090, 7750, 2374, 4526, 7040, 7890, 13840, 3018, 4547, 9260, 4400, 3090, 2529, 2401, 5730, 5523, 7910, 15330, 16950, 8000, 10060, 3610, 1890, 18330, 5060, 4220, 2240, 13270, 6347, 3823, 8670, 15620, 3460, 4900, 4180, 18300, 4290, 9660, 4240, 4110, 5370, 10900, 23154, 2950, 9943, 3258, 2527, 6630, 22540, 6173, 1460, 8870, 18436, 4384, 14010, 9660, 4343, 8050, 6820, 9809, 12211, 2150, 6063, 1940, 7181, 8432, 9227, 8763, 19542, 5440, 12813, 13980, 27860, 19000, 8570, 2980, 2863, 2562, 5870, 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3279, 2789], "label": ["i hope you've all had a great summer", "so excited to kick off this breakfast series for a new program year", "i'm jane clark president of our michigan west coast chamber and glad to be back", "we have a lot of energy planned for you this coming program year", "a lot of changes coming for our early bird breakfast changes coming with our annual meeting we hope you'll see you there", "first change up for early bird is how we handle our hosts our mcs every morning", "this season we're partnering with holland young professionals to be the mcs every single breakfast", "it's a great opportunity for the chamber to learn from our young leaders in our community", "they bring a great sense of energy a great new perspective for us and so to kick off this morning's breakfast i'm gonna ask heather gill fox to come up", "heather is board chair of hyp holland young professionals and she's also a great member of our west coast chamber board of directors", "so welcome heather", "thank you jane", "on behalf of the hollandzeeland young professionals we're truly grateful for the support from you and from this community for our emerging business leaders", "our hyp members are excited to make their mark and aligning ourselves with the west coast chamber gives us opportunity to better connect with successful members like everyone in this room so thank you for that", "jane promised innovative ideas for the upcoming year and i'm excited and privileged to be able to tell you about the first one", "start now get your cell phones out", "i know you've hidden them away", "as you may have heard or read the early bird breakfast is getting a fresh name and this is the moment we all get to vote on what that new name is going to be", "you may have sent in your ideas", "the chambers asked for input over the past couple of weeks", "people sent in their ideas for what this name could be and we've narrowed it down to the top three choices", "so to be innovative use our technology we're gonna pull out our cell phones and follow the instructions on your screens over here", "if you can't quite read it that's okay", "they're gonna send out the instructions afterward in the postevent survey email so you don't need to worry about that but open your internet browser and go to livevoxvotecom and when your internet has got you to that page you can type in the pin number which is twenty nine thousand three hundred and fifty two", "and that is going to give you your three top choices for the early bird breakfast new name", "they are wake up west coast which is maybe more of an instruction than a title but um", "business for breakfast and the west coast breakfast club", "so those are your three options vote on your favorite", "we'll give you a minute or two right now to work on that", "if you're not quite sure find a young person next to you and i'm sure they can help you out", "got my dig in for the morning", "hi dale", "yes", "all right", "it looks like most people have figured it out and are thinking about it", "wonderful", "the winning name is gonna be announced at the chamber's upcoming annual meeting which is on september 29th", "so be sure to attend that event so you can be in the group of people who's the first to know", "and before i introduce today's guest speaker the chamber wants to thank the greater ottawa county united way for sponsoring our preevent coffee time", "so thank you united way", "our guest speaker this morning is jennifer owens president of lakeshore advantage", "jennifer delivers business attraction expansion and retention services while providing overall leadership to the organization", "she has more than fifteen years of leadership experience working at various state and local economic development positions throughout michigan", "her accomplishments led her to receive awards and recognition such as being named one of the nation's top economic developers under forty in two thousand and thirteen and was the grand rapids journal newsmaker of the year finalist in two thousand and fifteen", "please join me in giving a warm welcome to jennifer owens", "thank you", "hello it's great to be back i missed my early bird friends and i'm excited to learn what to call them next", "so jane way to continue to innovate to look at new ideas", "and i love the fact that the hyp group is coming up", "we don't need tv anchors to be our mcs", "we got some pretty incredible young talent here", "so well done heather and i can't wait to see who's next in terms of leadership there", "so business intelligence report let me pull this out in my notes", "so lakeshore advantage for the last eight years or so has implemented a system of data collection", "so we've taken a little bit of a different approach to analyzing our data and our business retention in that one of our key goals one of our key goals is to maintain a robust business space at all stages of development", "we only support companies that export goods and services out of the region and thus bringing wealth back in and also focus on talent attraction and development and really looking forward to see where there are longterm opportunities for our community's continuing health", "and so what drives our organization and really hopefully drives our region is the insight and the feedback from our business leaders", "so many of those of us in economic development proactively go out and listen and learn from our business leaders and then use that data to kind of create our plan", "we take somewhat of a different structured approach", "woo there we go", "and we ask thirty eight questions of over one hundred and seventeen senior level business leaders to really get a pulse on where the economy is at where are the challenges for their businesses and where can we work to continue to address those issues", "and so we've been doing this for quite some time and we've got a great data expert in bruce adair", "for those of you who know bruce feed him a more data he loves data", "and so it's a really novel tool", "well last year when we unveiled our report we had one of our economic development partners in ed garner who was at the time with muskegon area first and ed is now the west michigan small business development director", "so congratulations ed but i kind of put his hand up and he said this is a really cool tool", "and i would love to see what this data looks like for muskegon", "is there an option to potentially extend this to a greater audience take a look at the data not only for ottawa county but from muskegon and ottawa county", "is this something that you might potentially work with us to put in place and i thought to myself i'm like yeah why not ed had had his hand up and he said hey this makes great sense and so i then called nora from the allegan economic development commission", "i said hey nora ed wants to maybe extend this to muskegon", "would you want to do it in allegan as well nora was like sure let's try it", "let's see where it went and then thus our partners at the grand haven chamber as well", "we said tricities area wanna make sure we're collecting all that data and joy gash and dana from her team said yeah let's give it a shot so for the first time this year we're gonna present you data from three counties collected by our partners in allegan ottawa and muskegon county", "and so the data will really truly represent a west coast region", "so thank you so much to those partners for taking a risk to taking additional time to take the structured process and bring it directly to their business", "and as a result i think we'll be stronger together as a lakeshore region", "and i'm gonna tell you we really are kicking the midwest's butt", "so as we go in deeper i'm gonna share that a little bit further", "so lake shore this data not only is about west michigan's lake shore but every three years we get the data for all of the midwest as well", "so it was a great time to expand the data that we collected because we also had a chance to analyze it head to head with eleven states throughout the midwest and say how are we doing how do we stack up how do we stack up head to head with those eleven states so today i'm gonna look at four key areas", "how that head to head competition compares", "are we doing better are we doing worse are there opportunities are there challenges as we look at those competitors in other states that oftentimes we compete every day for jobs and investment", "oops a little bit of a lagger there we go", "so first up business growth", "so as you know the economy is extremely strong right now and as is the midwest economy as well", "so we kinda thought well we're both growing maybe at similar rates so what does it look overall as it relates to business growth in our region and what we found is ninety four of those west michigan lakeshore companies have sales that are increasing or stable versus sixty six of the midwest companies", "so clearly we're seeing a much stronger growth of sales than our midwest competitors", "i might need your help here caroline", "okay and so to bring that to life i would like to present you one example right here in the city of holland lg chem", "so the community took a risk and also put their hand up in the alternative energy storage market and said we want to be the center of advanced energy storage and wow has lg chem and johnson controls really proved good on their promise to this community", "lg chem in particular has just opened seven years ago", "they currently are at about five hundred employees right now adding two hundred in the past two years twenty five million invested in the last year in the city of holland and growing", "so lg chem is a sign of not only the industries that are driving your future but also the industries that will continue to power us for many years to come", "so a great example of how that business growth is boring forward in our state", "so it's not only about the markets that we're serving in the us but it is also about who we're supporting throughout the world", "so as you know many of our companies are exporting goods and services throughout the world throughout the country", "in particular in the food processing sector we're seeing more and more of our food processors working to export those goods and services out of the region", "in fact our international sales as a whole about sixty eight of our region's companies have growing international sales as compared to twenty six of the us", "so that's great news for us", "we're supplying goods and products and services and we're bringing wealth back into our region to make us stronger", "a fabulous example of that", "and i don't know how many people realize what actually goes on off the highway in zeeland at zeeland farm services", "you look at it and you're like huh what's happening there and let me tell you i have been amazed every time i go to meet with cliff and his team", "so zeeland farm services is the supplier to what to the rest of the world is their ketchup soy sauce", "they are the number one world leading producer of non gmo soy protein that's exported to the entire world", "kikkoman is actually one of their largest customers the japanese based soy sauce manufacturer and kikkoman takes zeeland farm services soy proteins and puts it in the majority of their soy products which are then exported to businesses throughout the country", "so when you go by zeeland farm services now it's not a grain elevator", "it is amazing world leader in soy protein that will continue to grow and expand in this community and also a specific example of how export sales have continued to move us forward", "so what's next things are great here in the economy what's gonna happen in five years from now can we continue this expansion trend i have a lot of people say when are things going to turn the other way and i feel that too", "i think we say okay is it gonna continue to be this good things are great but what will happen in the future so are we is continue to have positive outlook as the us midwest well what we found is seventy five of the companies here in the lakeshore have said that yes they will expand in the next three years versus fifty of the companies in the midwest", "so of those who said they would expand forty actually provided us specifics on those expansion plans and combined they expect to invest about two hundred and fifty eight million in the next three years into the community and add one thousand nine hundred jobs", "so i'm thinking the future looks pretty good hopefully fingers crossed but i'm still very very optimistic outlook", "and our midwest competitors share that outlook as well", "but again dominating that midwest competition", "and i think to kind of bring that to life", "to give you an example of a recent expansion is plascore in zeeland", "for those of you who don't know plascore is one of the world's leading producers of honeycomb panels for the aerospace industry", "just last week plascore announced an expansion of their fairview facility that'll be doubling that production capability and it was directly tied to the growth that they're seeing in the aerospace market", "so these honeycomb panels are not only used in aerospace", "they're used in automobiles boats and clean rooms", "so plascore is one of those future leading expansions that we'll see not only three years from now but probably next year", "so make sure you keep an eye out there", "but plascore is a really a specific example of the diverse range of companies and industries that will continue to drive us forward", "so strengths i talked a lot about strengths but what are specifically our strengths in the community outside of the business growth and outside of the expansion plans we're seeing", "and one of the things that it's been about three years for me since i've moved to this area that i continue to see as a phenomenal strength of this community is the continued investment in research and development", "i have my friends from gentex here in the front so i'll pick on them a little bit in a good way", "so for those of you who know gentex is our largest employer here in ottawa county but the technology that is taking place in gen tex is unlike any company i've ever seen in the state if not in the us", "in two thousand and seventeen alone gentex has issued over seventy patents and they have thousands of patents already in stock", "so the patents are really the first step of the introduction of new products and technologies that will take shape in the next five years two years three years to come", "so seventy patents issued in two thousand and seventeen", "i'm gonna challenge you curt another seventy more before the end of the year but really that's the sign of what's to come for our community", "and so eighty two of our companies invest in r d at a higher level compared to forty nine of the us midwest", "so that continuing investment in research and development new products and technology that is what will continue to drive our community not only now but in five years to come", "and so that investment doesn't only happen outside of a company oftentimes it happens inside a company", "and for those of you who are not familiar with the word intrapreneurship you'll be hearing it much more to come", "and so intrapreneurship is really when a business takes place inside of an existing large employer and as a result of that innovation and that technology in that large employer a spinoff company is created", "so it's a great case of a volta power systems", "so volta's current ceo was employed by johnson controls and saw some great potential of technology developed there that could be applied to other markets specifically the rv market boating a vast range of other industries", "and so johnson controls was focused on the automotive market and he wanted to give it a shot and see what these other industries would make sense so he went off on his own he created volta power systems and volta basically takes lithium ion batteries and adapts those batteries to power large rvs and boats", "and so he opened up the doors not knowing what would happen", "and in the last three years they've doubled sales year on year every single year as a result of that intrapreneurship that innovation within our existing companies we have a brand new employer that will continue to be strong and has much more success to come", "so again when you drive by james and you see volta power systems i'm expecting they'll grow out of that facility to come", "but it's a result of innovation that not only happens outside of our large employers but internally as well", "and we all win when that continues to happen", "so overall community strengths when you take a look at strengths headtohead with the us midwest we continue to be somewhat even as it relates to work ethic business climate quality of life barriers to growth and talent", "however we are continuing to see talent be the number one barrier from employers going forward", "and it's no surprise with our economy being so strong and having the lowest unemployment rate in the state of michigan that our existing employers would continue to have some struggles finding talented workers", "however they aren't putting their hats in their heads and saying woe is me instead they're coming up with solutions to overcome the talent barriers that currently face our industry", "so seventy nine that cited a talented workforce was their number one barrier as compared to thirty seven of the us who said they had barriers for growth", "but as i mentioned there is definitely hope for the future", "and let me tell you fear not the robot apocalypse it is not coming", "and i don't know if you saw this wall street journal article but basically what it shared is automation actually is the solution for our manufacturers continuing to be productive and strong", "and in fact two of the world's leading automation providers in jr automation and koops are headquartered right here in holland in holland township", "and combined those two companies have added nearly three hundred people in the last year", "they are the solution", "they are working sidebyside with manufacturers throughout the us and adapting automation and technology solutions that can allow products to be automated where we don't have the workforce to supply the needs", "and at the end of the day those automation solutions are making those companies more productive more efficient", "goods and services will be exported out at a higher rate and the economy will be strong as we continue to kinda welcome the rise of the robots in a good way", "and it is i mean if you have not been inside some of our amazing employers and seen that automation at work it is fascinating", "and so it's not only about automation", "it is also about investing in their existing workforce", "now obviously as technology has changed dramatically as is today's manufacturing positions", "so the person working on the line today the vast majority of them have to have some pretty advanced technology skills to be able to program those robotic devices to be able to change that highend machinery", "and thus our employers have also chosen to continue to invest in their workforce to make sure they are adopting technology of today", "so last year alone the state skilled trades training fund trained over eight hundred workers in ottawa county", "one hundred and thirty four million was put from the skill trade training fund into our workforce today", "and the vast majority of that was used to train the workforce on automation solutions technology ways for them to be more efficient which will continue to drive our future", "and so a great example of that is baumann tool die in zeeland", "so baumann currently has eight employees and they actually used the skilled trades training fund to invest in mastercam software", "and so this software improves the setup of their machines for cnc to allow them to more efficiently set the machines to turn them over and allow those machines to be put to work even faster", "and as a result of the investment in this software and the skilled trades training fund that allowed their employees to actually learn how to utilize it to the fullest the company now has seen a significant growth of sales and investment", "so a six person company makes that investment takes that leap to train their workforce and as a result their sales are now increasing dramatically", "that's an example of software that'll make a huge difference for our community now in the years to come", "so we're the clear winner that's it hands down", "and i don't know if you recognize this guy you liked that right so overall kirk cousins i love kirk cousins", "i'd look any way i can get kirk in my presentations but overall from the us to the midwest we are very strong as it relates to business growth expansions strength and talent the absolute best and in fact i believe the holland sentinel is here today", "i've already wrote their headline for them", "so sentinel write that down", "you don't even have to have your headline workers do anything", "there you go right there", "that's your headline", "however in order for this message to not stop here in the room we need all of you to amplify this message of our community strengths of the lakeshore's dominance as it relates to the midwest and also to help us attract talent into the region retain young professionals like heather and the hyp group", "we need all of you to amplify the message", "and i also have a great group of cocaptains who are gonna help me lead you in one big cheer so curt you're the chamber chair now so this is your hazing", "curt come on up hold your sign", "and i'm gonna ask for dana to come up too from the grand haven chamber nora from the allegan economic development commission kevin stotts where are you hiding at you're supposed to be over here", "kevin stotts from talent two thousand and twenty five who there is an array of their data inside the report as well and a really helped guide us in this process", "and then darryl todd from muskegon area first", "and all of you i need you to grab your megaphones", "they are megaphones stand up stand up alright alright alright", "okay give me a b b give me an e e give me an s s give me a t t what does that spell best in the midwest best in the midwest all right good job thanks guys thank you", "kevin i know i owe you one", "thank you so much", "i didn't even flip the slide", "so if you log that data on the megaphones we encourage you to take them with you", "you can actually download the report", "there is the direct address", "use them to cheer on your local school or college team as well", "i know i took them home to my kids and they will never come back to my house again because they were really enjoying using them but they are fun on the football field and we will be here also for after coffee to drill into that data further", "there are a few hard copies of the reports as well and great thanks to our partners who helped make this happen", "and jane to allow us to share this research with you today", "thank you", "all right super", "so i think jennifer is the best", "she is the best chamber partner one of my very best friends and we're so happy and fortunate to have her in the community", "i learned this morning she is also a state champion cheerleader", "so let's another round for jennifer", "yeah right", "and we do have a small gift from cherry republic we'll be sharing with jennifer", "another gift to take home share with your family and your boys", "we have time for questions though who might have the first question", "yes steve", "oh thank you", "you talked a lot about talent as being one of the barriers to growth in here", "what are some of the other ones i mean how are we standing in terms of like financial support for companies that are growing and some of the other resources that are necessary are we in good place for that or do we need to do more work in that area that's a great question", "the number two barrier we actually found as we dug in deeper to the data was housing access to workforce housing", "and so i'm pleased to be part of the housing next initiative along with the grand haven community foundation hollandzeeland community foundation and the two chambers to address that barrier but that's a huge one right now workforce housing", "and if we can attract talent in where are they gonna live anyone who's sold a house recently knows they go really really quick and to build an affordable unit it's a loss leader at this point", "so how do we figure out a way to address that challenge to move us forward next question", "got a microphone coming over that's right", "could you talk over what kind of things we're doing to interface with education like college and university absolutely it's great", "so i actually dale pink i think is here from grcc", "do you see where's dale bill", "oh bill sorry", "bill hey bill so grcc muskegon community college and grand valley hope we have a really solid partnerships there", "the thing that kind of really makes me fired up is the early college program that actually provides high school students a chance to graduate with the two year associate's degree with zero debt", "and so both grand rapids community college and muskegon community college are offering that early college program which is huge", "we are really working hard to grow internship programs in the community", "so last year we provided support to over two hundred interns in the community to educate them on why they start their careers here", "and so hope grand valley all of the area universities have really encouraged that experiential kind of learning environment", "and so i think internships are also going to be a huge future for us", "i would be remiss if i didn't give a shout out to ottawa isd and the future prep connections program because i don't think that the talent issues are gonna be solved in college", "they're probably going to be solved starting in middle school", "that's the time where we can really open up our kids eyes to careers of the future", "i'm a huge proponent of isd's programs and all of the work that's going on in our local school district to expose our kids to careers of today", "my son went through career camp and he now wants to be a welder cause he had a chance to weld and he really loved that skill", "i would have no way to expose him to what it looks like to weld or what it's like but because of the isd and that career enhancement it's making a huge difference and it'll make a difference in our family's life too", "john can i offer you guys the microphone", "yes good morning", "thanks for bringing that report", "sure", "amazon has launched a wellpublicized effort to find a new headquarters and grand rapids and detroit are both putting teams together to vie for that", "do you because of our talent and housing issues have an opinion as to which of those we ought to get", "wow that's a hard one", "i would say we definitely support the right place who's putting together a proposal along with the city of grand rapids for amazon's headquarters", "and i think it would be awesome to have them in the city of detroit as well", "it's one of those projects that are once in a lifetime kind of projects that i think will be huge gamechangers for whatever community they select", "the one thing that was a bit of an aha moment for me is that they had one of their number one criteria as access to public transportation throughout the region", "and although we've got strong local public transportation within our cities and our counties we're not as interconnected as we should be throughout all of west michigan so that may be something that will work against us", "we certainly have the growth", "we have more than a million people", "i think it would be phenomenal", "having access to the people as well will be a challenge because our unemployment rate's so low but we'll see", "okay", "hi jennifer hey dante", "congrats on the report very well", "were you able to look at the activity or growth of businesses with five to ten employees maybe twenty employees the smaller shops or even retailers just kinda get a pulse of how they're doing here in our region so our data is just primary employers so it wouldn't have the retail or the commercial", "however if you look at the us as a whole and the data and i think we probably could drill down for the county eighty of the growth will come with and from employers who have less than ten people", "and that's really where the overall growth will be is in those small kind of newer businesses", "we've really spent a lot of time investing in early stage startups through our surge initiative as well", "and the key goal with that is really we're growing the future", "and we know if we are laserfocused on small business growth that's gonna continue to help our community boost up but we could probably drill down on that data for you too if you'd like it", "additional questions", "what we're gonna do now is adjourn to our morning mingle and jennifer i'm gonna let you be the first one out of the building to head out to the center doors", "what we heard from you every single month we send out a survey after this breakfast and we've heard you like to network before breakfast and you really wanna continue the networking after breakfast", "so starting today out in the foyer we're gonna have morning mingle", "so we're encouraging you to stay to greet each other", "each month we'll have our speaker adjourn out there so if you want to connect individually with the speaker the speaker will be available for you", "heather thank you so much for kicking off our first partnership program today with hollandzeeland young professionals", "we appreciate that", "remember to vote", "we'll send you a reminder for that when we send out your survey", "and of course we want you to come back next month tuesday october 10th", "we've invited roger curtis", "roger curtis is the new director of michigan's talent and education initiatives", "a fantastic speaker", "and as you heard from jennifer talent is top priority we know for all of you", "so we want you to come back august ten to hear roger curtis", "so with that thanks and we'll see you next month"], "name": ["West_Coast_Chamber_-_Early_Bird_Breakfast_September_2017/West_Coast_Chamber_-_Early_Bird_Breakfast_September_2017/West_Coast_Chamber_-_Early_Bird_Breakfast_September_2017_DOT_HD_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "West_Coast_Chamber_-_Early_Bird_Breakfast_September_2017/West_Coast_Chamber_-_Early_Bird_Breakfast_September_2017/West_Coast_Chamber_-_Early_Bird_Breakfast_September_2017_DOT_HD_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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1120, 4090, 5380, 2590, 9030, 6310, 12670, 2200, 1670, 3230, 1580, 7700, 6190, 1370, 2460, 4820, 2193, 7540, 3060, 1260, 5670, 980, 5720, 2470, 1470, 1940, 9352, 3681, 3660, 2947, 833, 2617, 1560, 980, 5100, 1020, 6570, 2532, 3338, 6230, 11213, 7770, 3603, 833, 1470, 1460, 4699, 5191, 6600, 1410, 3450, 3313, 1347, 5910, 5200, 7980, 1223], "label": ["call please mr sylvester", "mrs merrell", "present", "mr stiegel present", "mr ball present", "mr berquist here", "mr arcuri here", "mr lewis", "here", "mrs", "mrs jonesrolla", "here", "all right", "let's please all rise for the pledge of allegiance", "i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all", "all right", "next on the agenda would be approval of the minutes of the regular council meeting of august 11th two thousand and fourteen", "i move that the minutes be approved as written", "second", "any other comments changes suggestions all those in favor say aye", "aye", "opposed nay", "i abstain i was absent", "one absentia", "all right that makes it six zero one", "next", "special reports", "none", "there are none", "shocking", "next audience comments", "this is a portion of the agenda in which a member of the audience can come up and have five minutes to talk about an issue or item that is not on the agenda", "this would be for a non agenda item", "do i have anyone in the audience that would like to come up and speak at this time all right", "good evening", "i'm gina seminole one hundred and sixteen windermere court", "i just have a request in regards to the property that's located behind windermere court that you guys own", "can somebody come out and mark what your property is back there compared to what our homeowners association owns there are markers on the side closest to the houses but not out into the retention pond or on the other side of the retention pond", "that would require a survey crew which would require money", "it's not marked anywhere already cause there are two four by four posts closest to our properties but there's nothing on the other side of the retention pond already that maybe is was there at a certain point that we just can't see anymore or was it never marked are you looking for like a real accurate delineation or are you just looking for as accurate as possible", "it has to do with our insurance company and insurances and we're trying to make sure whose property is what and it also goes along with dealing with this energy or this issue with first energy which i know is on the agenda for later but we need to figure out what we own versus what the property is owned by peters township", "wouldn't a plan reflect our open space oh it does but i just need it marked somehow", "you wouldn't be able to tell in the field", "well again there's no reason for us to go out and pay money to have it surveyed cause we don't have an issue", "you're requesting it", "i don't think we have a problem you pay for the survey that they would come out and perform that task", "i have certainly no objection givin her a copy of the plan even though it's a record i mean", "she already has the plan", "i just need it marked", "the growth back there it's so overgrown", "it could already very well be marked and we just can't see it", "cause like i said there's two four by fours closest to the homes and i can't imagine that it wasn't marked on the other side", "we just can't find it", "surprising that they're not there", "we'll check and see if the markers are there", "we'll take that step first", "okay yeah", "that's all i'm requesting is have planning go out and take a look at it", "that would be awesome i would appreciate it", "i don't see us spending the money to have a survey done", "i understand completely", "thank you very much", "yep", "anybody else in the audience would like to speak on a nonagenda item all right", "see no one stepping forward", "let's move on to unfinished business and we have nothing on the agenda for that", "and we'll go to new business", "first item on the agenda is a request by don riser", "one hundred and fourteen windermere court", "peters township to join in litigation against first energy", "thank you very much for getting me on the agenda this evening", "i appreciate that", "a little update", "several homeowners throughout peters township has", "have retained dickie mccamey chilcote a pittsburgh firm to represent their interests in this battle with first energy", "that's progressing", "papers have been filed in washington county", "we've talked about this or i've mentioned it to you before that because it is in our opinion a property issue we would like the council to consider joining in on that litigation", "okay", "i'd like to also note that again along those lines they have first energy has started to cut along maple lane longview and contrary to what they continue to tell us they are leaving brush they're leaving stumps they're leaving logs", "they're not doing exactly what they've told you folks and continue to tell us at various points as we've talked about well i don't know if their comments about leaving brush was", "i thought it was pretty much just for the windermere location", "i don't know that it was a universal it was not a universal we're gonna do it for everybody", "okay", "you were special in their mind's eye", "so whether they don't do it for you or not i i can't determine that yet but that's what", "might be my understanding of our discussion with them they were willing to do it in that area not in windermere they don't do it", "i know i just drove up to state college and there's power lines big ones everywhere", "and i noticed they're all pretty much underneath pretty clear", "and if you if the council were to look at maple in particular it's very unsightly on what they've done because they've just cut and dropped and this", "right along the roadway", "very unsightly so i appreciate that", "mr zuck would that be considered something that would be a property maintenance issue that someone might file a complaint about well it's", "it's the right of way through", "we're the property owner correct john and they have a right of way through our property", "i'm not sure that would be a question", "well i'm not sure what are they leaving they're leaving large large limbs and brush that they've cut", "they've had they had done some chipping and there's piles of chipping along the roadway", "so to your question i'm not exactly sure if that's on the right of way for peters township road or the property owner but in driving the power lines which i do routinely it is very unsightly and again different than what they've told us but to mr berquist's comments that could've been just for individual property owners but it might be something you care to look at", "we could look at it john", "yeah i'm just concerned that our recourse may be against the property owners as opposed to west penn", "under the then their recourse would be back to first energy", "right depends on what the right of way says too", "they might have the obligation to put it back", "also interesting to note up there as we progress with the legal piece of this the right of way for some of those properties up there is not recorded and is gonna become an issue for first energy because there is no right of way recorded in washington county", "any other discussion on this members of council if i if i might just briefly if i could just kind of summarize what it is that the township has at this point just so you're aware before you have any discussions of whether you wanted to get involved in the suit", "we have basically four areas where the township still has property where there's right of way that west penn wishes to go into", "the first one starting at the edge of peterswood park there is i can be a is right here by the rec center you can see", "right here by the rec center we own this lot", "they'll be comin through here and here", "basically the intent they feel can go in and basically mow that kinda brush hog it and that's their primary thing on that that piece of property", "that goes right up against the windermere property", "that is let me see if i can just", "nope went too far", "that we own property on it doesn't show", "well here", "oh no here it is", "whoops", "that we own property on here", "and then there's those trees", "it may do it better with this", "this is the same property", "so these are these are the trees here", "this is our pond so they'd be coming up through there", "and then", "then we own property along hidden valley road that goes out to maple starts off at hidden valley here and it cuts up across", "there's an open space and the power line is basically right up here and then it and then there's a small parcel of it that it", "oops it didn't show that", "that is also along maple lane right in this area here", "so those are the those are the areas that the township has", "now that area on hidden valley between maple and hidden valley that they would go in there and basically cut that and in that area they would definitely leave any that's there", "so that is their proposals for all of those", "they were supposed to give us a drawing and they didn't have it put together yet for an ultimate landscape plan around the stormwater pond in windermere which they're still supposed to be giving us", "and we've asked for the same", "they told us the same that right yeah", "it will be forthcoming", "right", "and they haven't started any of the work on our properties", "no we've put em on hold and they've submitted these drawings and we haven't approved em", "waiting to see what council wants to do", "there's work plans in your docket for all those properties", "so again just well mr smith what do you think about", "i did have occasion to speak with counsel from dickie mccamy", "they contacted me last week", "and even in the past i did some of my own looking around for the residents just to see what would be the potential causes of action and the consensus was for me at least sight unseen i haven't reviewed any easements would be are they exceeding the scope of the easement because the easement may not speak to removal versus maintenance or trimming", "and what's the course of dealing between the parties this has been going on for years and years and years", "everybody may have their own set of facts", "they did ask and i asked them to put together and i have yet to see and i know the lawyers so i can sure i could call them but i have not seen the copy of the complaint", "i didn't know they filed", "so part of the analysis would we'd have to look at to see if we had common interests in terms of i think the board has common interest in terms of they understand the plight of the residents and they don't like what's going on but from a standpoint of are we an actual party to this we have easements just like you do", "they may be the same ones i don't know", "so it's hard for me to advise the board at this juncture to say yeah let's sue where our easement may be way more involved than yours even if the board was inclined to do that", "but i do think there's a there's a chance or there's an opportunity just because again the course of conduct we've had residents come in each month or each meeting and say in the past they've only trimmed it", "they've only cut it", "they allowed us to plan certain trees and now they're having us remove them", "so are there estoppel issues here are there reliance issues there may be", "and those are the the lawyers from dickie were thinking along the same lines", "we were sharing the same thoughts although they had taken it a step further because they did in fact have your easements", "and they did believe that it didn't speak to these issues and that the removal was they didn't think was inclusive in that particular easement in the scope", "so i think that's probably if they filed that's what they did", "now you know we would have to get it in writing but they indicated that they would basically do the bulk of the work", "but i said you know we still we got in we wouldn't get in on behalf of the residents", "the township would have to appreciate the same issues as to their easements and want to combine these issues", "so i think that the prudent course of", "that's why i was hoping to have em in advance of this meeting", "i didn't know they filed but if they could get us a copy of the complaint that i could evaluate along with our particular easements so that we may be different we may be the same", "and that doesn't mean the board says let's go forward", "you may still not wanna invest your money as to whether they're gonna take the trees out of our area or not in order to fight them", "so", "well i believe we do have one easement because we had that meeting", "oh we have we have mr lewis and i requested a copy of it and they gave it to us", "and i think it might've been the windermere one", "and i mean it was pretty specific about they could do whatever they basically wanted", "yeah and that made it i do have the easements for all those all our properties", "oh you do no and the board has not authorized me to investigate any time or effort", "i have sort of investigated on my own outside of our doctrines but i have yet to receive those from the township", "so that that's something if that the board wants i can review in conjunction with the lawsuit they filed with with their particular easement just to see what may be similar what may be different as to whether or not we have a common cause of action", "and if the board would wanna do it", "they may not wanna expend the money to save twenty feet of tree", "they", "that's something that's gonna be up to them", "if there is a viable claim", "i certainly don't object to having counsel review our position", "i do recall that our meeting with first energy people i walked away from that meeting with a very favorable opinion of what they were presenting to us", "and i'm not in essence ready to jump on board and say we wanna take an attack against what i consider to be a reasonable plan", "but i'd like to know an assessment", "and that's just my own thoughts", "no i would agree with you", "i'd like to see to see that", "my opinion that you go forward to review the easements and see what your thought process is on anything that we might be able to accomplish by that", "i", "one hand i am extremely sympathetic to the residents of windermere and to all residents that are impacted by this first energy action", "the other hand we also have twenty thousand some other residents that aren't directly impacted by it and before we spend all taxpayer money we have to be very aware that it's money well spent", "fully appreciate that and i fully appreciate what the council has done", "so we have stick that under", "you know there's", "that's one of the difficult things about sitting in this seat is you wanna do something but sometimes you're unable to but i think if we have a reasonable chance of being able to join in this with with some probability of success i would be for it", "right and i also think there's gonna be a cost benefit analysis", "we have to see once i sit down what's it gonna cost for you to save x amount of cutting and does that make sense to you but if you could get me or maybe i can ask mr stone to just forward me a copy of whatever was filed do you know what was filed was there a complaint or just a writ filed writ filed", "okay so there's no substantive filing yet just a writ not that i'm aware of as of as we speak", "okay so once we get that hopefully by the next meeting he'll have filed the rest of that and we can look at it then", "but that which has been filed at this point would be sufficient to preclude first energy continuing to work in windermere", "no all that would be if it's a writ is just notice to them that they've been sued", "they i suspect they haven't asked for an injunction yet", "i know they planned on it", "so i'm sure we woulda read about that somewhere along the way", "but yeah they could arguably move forward", "they'd have to find the complaint too", "yeah they'd have to file the complaint", "or they could ask for the", "that'd be account yes for the jurisdiction", "so i know that's in the works", "that may have been done today", "i'm just not sure", "yeah that's fine", "we'll i'll get with your counsel and he can send me what he has", "i appreciate that and again mr berquist thank you very much yeah i would make a motion that we allow mr smith to review our our easement policy and come back with an opinion as to what he thinks our our our options are", "second", "having reviewed those easements", "motion's made and seconded", "any further discussion all those in favor say aye", "aye", "opposed nay", "sounds like unanimous seven to zero", "thank you", "stay right there", "cause i didn't wanna walk back to my chair", "cause you got a request by donald riser at one hundred and fourteen windermere court to peters township owned open space property in the windermere plan", "you didn't understand my no the last time we had this conversation i've had my wife explain no to me a couple times but generally speaking you know i'm with you on that then", "i wanted to get it up on the on the agenda", "i think last time we spoke mr berquist it's something that may require some more action on council's part either to put it to bid or an executive session but again i wanted to make it very clear that was not a flippant comment i made at the last meeting", "i'm very serious about that", "i wasn't trying to say flippant either", "no and and i i i fully understand that but this will have a significant impact on my property value", "and i fully understand that township if if we were to lose this with first energy and those trees are removed peters township's not gonna be in a position to come back in and replant and meet whatever requirement first energy puts out there", "i would like to take that on", "i'm very serious about that property there", "so if there is anything that i need to further do or if the county well if i recall though and i think it was an email you might've sent that you mentioned that you wanna take the property but not the retention pond", "not the retention pond or your access road", "that's where all the risk and hassle is", "we'd be happy to sell you them", "i have no problem just to kind of go ahead mr smith do you have any comments on this just to reiterate you know the way this property was recorded and dedicated to the township it states that the property has to be kept in permanent open space and that it's owned by the township", "and that's where all the difficulties in trying to sell to an individual property owner", "although i would disagree that if if if those trees were removed we normally would go back in and put some type of landscape screen around the pond", "and in fact you know one of the things we are we do have funding that we're getting from west penn for the materials that were removed in the park and we would be able to use em in that location to replace trees if they were removed", "of course you've been promised by first energy for a proposed landscaping plan", "right", "for that area", "in the windermere plan for in peterswood park in windermere", "and around the pond yeah", "but doesn't mean they're gonna pay for it", "they'll give us some money for it", "they've offered most residents fifty gift cards for every five trees", "we've already been there", "they owe us five thousand five hundred for peterswood", "which we could use well like i said the the there's very little opportunity that we would we would sell the property to you cause it is an issue it's a difficult issue to overcome", "only we've had that issue", "several times", "driveway they wanted the swap and bunker hill", "the solicitor wrote a lengthy memo and it was pretty complicated as i recall", "and we can share that memo if the board wants with", "that was a swap that was not that was a swap but that time but what about with that you had to get court approval and you had to show some overriding government i think that was the only thing to even made that even fees possible was we weren't gonna lose open space cause we were gonna trade it off", "right", "i don't see how and even then it was a real minefield", "i don't see how okay", "we'll give you a copy of his of his thesis", "thesis", "i appreciate that and i will not badger the council but honestly i'm not gonna be done with this just yet", "the stormwater pond too though we're not gonna keep that hassle and sell the land", "would that would that make it easier if i took that on i don't think it's gonna be any different", "i don't know that we can sell it to an individual", "yeah i think it would be understood and again i don't wanna badger council", "you folks have been very great", "but again i'm very serious about that", "probably will not be the last time i'm up here but i honestly have to do a lot more research", "i'll wait to see what council provides for me to come back and face this again", "we'll have somethin next meeting you think well we have if the board wants me to just share what we've already done we can just forward that", "yeah we have that memo", "yeah and some okay", "that'll give me the right direction", "i appreciate it", "on this back the tree issue", "yeah yeah", "if your counsel provides me with what they filed or what they're going to file then i'll be in a better position to evaluate our easements against the cause of action that you're bringing", "and that might even be under unfinished business maybe", "alright", "i always like to have something under that", "all right thank you", "thank you", "thank you very much", "all right", "next item on the agenda would be the revised traffic control plan for the whispering pines plan for ted taylor builders", "am i surprised by not seeing him here he's here", "is he he's right there", "okay", "he's blending in", "he has the same shirt on as the seat so that's why he's", "i'm sorry boss", "michael do you wanna", "yeah just briefly if council recalled mr taylor was here a few months ago requesting permission to not install the left turn restricting island there and also since then he's also requested to remove the proposed traffic calming lines within the development based on two factors", "one is that the plan is no longer going through into the woodlands of peters township plan and then also the front one on boyer because of then there was now stop signs at boyer or bebout and bower hill", "and so based on that and the arguments that they made it not feasible to be able to drive into the plan they're asking to waive that requirement", "they did go to the planning commission planning commission did concur", "and and now we're here before council", "and traffic our traffic planning engineer he also concurred correct yes", "ready go ahead", "go ahead", "ted taylor monisha", "the township i agree with the township engineer the township planning department the township planning commission i might add one more point", "it's about one hundred and thirty five degree", "if you're coming from boyer going toward monisha and you wanna turn left to the back towards mcmurray we have trucks coming in and out of that plan", "and for them to make that turn they have to try two times pull out in the second lane of traffic back up and turn again to make that one hundred and thirty five it's probably more than one hundred and thirty five degree turn and that's not safe", "and i think it's much improved the way it's been with the four stop signs at froebe and bebout plus a stop sign going out of boyer and i can remember when we started this plan that the residents of boyer didn't wanna have to come down the way you're telling me to go come out now", "so i don't feel that it's to anyone's interest to make that the way it is as it is now", "i wanna change as the township engineer and the traffic engineer propose", "i'm agreeing with that", "if the residents would want put a twenty five foot twenty five mile speed limit on that road i'd be all for that", "if that's what they're complainin about", "what's the speed limit on that road now it's twenty five", "i don't think there's any sign", "it's twenty five now", "i've never seen a sign", "there may not be a sign but it is a twenty five", "okay", "that's it thank you mr taylor", "all right", "anybody in the audience want to talk about this agenda item i do", "yes sir", "my name is virgil colussy", "i live on boyer road", "i've been there this is my anniversary year fifty two years", "that's a long time", "and last time was here in front of the council they talked about buildin down there on old ronk property", "and when they built down there i was one of the guys that stood up and said that a guy has a right to build on property he bought", "but he has no right to change all our living conditions where we are now", "the attribute of the whole thing in my opinion is that road off what'd they call it that lane at comin out of the", "that silver crest drive should be out onto bebout road with an adequate safety signal to turn left or right", "he's right", "they can't turn on that road and i told him that in the first place", "remember one thing ladies and gentlemen", "when the younger people come in there and they have children and they gotta make a drive on there you're going to have a fatality because where you put the stop signs on top of the road up there which is a help but even i pull out of there to go from boyer on there", "the moment you get across there somebody's giving you the finger or tellin ya", "i'm tellin you they think that's a speedway there", "and that speed limit should be reduced all the way from the pond down because they buildin it right where ronk's property is", "and they're buildin across the road", "and they're gonna put a two hundred vehicles on that road a day ted taylor's plan when do you have forty families i heard it's supposed to be forty two homes there", "i might be wrong on that", "them are rumors i hear", "but that's not right", "i even went to the internet and looked at the school bus thing", "school bus average school bus is forty foot long", "when you come out of when you come out of boyer road even if you make a left turn there by the time you get across there that guy comin down after that stop sign that bus'll never make it", "you're gonna have a fatality there sure as god made green apples either there or down below because there is a sharp bend down at the bottom", "the other day two days ago no last wednesday it was i went to pick up a guy lived across the road there and i come out you can't see him", "you can't hear him", "a guy comes around the bend forty mile an hour maybe fifty mile an hour", "he didn't he didn't go behind me", "he just went around the bend on a double line pass", "i mean if there was another car comin down he woulda hit me", "we have to change the speed limit ladies and gentlemen", "that you got bebout what's the speed limit on bebout on bebout", "everything i'm talking about it refers to this building what they're doin right now", "you have a speed limit of twenty five mile an hour down there road", "you have twenty five mile an hour speed limit at orchard highlands", "there is no reason that we can't do that here now", "this you're right it's changed", "the stop sign you guys put up there", "i think it helps me because when i get up there now i can get through that intersection sometimes you just can't get through it", "right well i think that that's a state road is it not yeah yeah that's a state road", "to get the stop signs well we were advocating for years to get it", "that was ultimately a state decision", "now we can make a request to well i'm gonna", "i have a call in to senator smith i'm going to go see him", "and i'm going to appeal to him that see if we can do something about that because all my children are grown but somebody else's children aren't grown", "right", "and you're gonna have a problem", "and oh the other thing is when they put the gas line in down there they dug up all the stones", "that was all cut grass", "twenty years ago when they put the sewage system in that place they had an inspector", "do we have a township inspector comes around if we is he's nonexistent cause i haven't seen him", "inspector for what well to see what they put their land back the way they found it", "that's fair i think that's fair", "you talkin about the road i'm talkin about the side of the road", "oh and by the way that road the trucks have gone off the road broke the edge of the road and track", "it's crazy", "i'm telling you they're utter disregard for the people", "you talkin boyer road boyer road", "everything i'm tellin you is truthful as i can be", "and just not right", "i'm tellin you a forty mile an hour is nothing on that road", "yeah", "it just it's changed so drastically since i've moved out here the first one that first brought me out here i thought they were takin me out to the boondocks but i love it out here but i tell you what it's gettin bad", "you gotta do something about the roads", "you gotta get that speed limit down", "at least from the pond up", "that should be twenty five mile an hour", "well we have again and i'm totally understanding what you're saying", "we have speed limit issues throughout this township", "well but see that's a main highway there", "that's a little different", "when you get a forty mile an hour highway that means they're goin fifty", "and you know what i'm saying you know even i'm maybe guilty of goin over thirty five", "no no i wouldn't do that", "right i didn't think so yeah i know", "but anyhow i don't remember if you think and i drew up a schematic and i wasn't even gonna put it on there but when them school buses go up that road and they pulled out on that road goin up the road toward boyer road from my house believe me ladies and gentlemen that is dangerous", "that is i wouldn't want my kids on that bus", "you're saying making the left out of boyer down at the bottom part", "well that's just as bad cause i went to mr sylvester and we had a little talk and i asked if he would get a vehicle to go down there", "and i called him i talked to him the other today", "he said they had a fire truck which is fine but i told them bring a", "put a school bus on there and i wanted him to make a turn see see what he thinks", "and what mr taylor says is right", "that's dangerous", "he's right", "you know but the answer is across from crest lane onto the main road with appropriate stop signals that will take care of that business", "and i want by the way i wish somebody gets on the gas company and tell em to come put some dirt out there and do that over again", "cause it was when they damage the property my understanding is they should reclaim it and put it back in original condition it was in", "does that make sense or not that's pretty close to correct", "that's what they're supposed to do", "well they don't do it", "i don't i don't even know if you have an inspector", "well we we try to check all the areas we possibly can", "my wife we had a big issue as you know down well my wife told me not to get excited but i can't help it sometime", "i just that just me", "that's okay", "okay thank you", "thank you thank you sir", "is there anyone else in the audience who'd like to speak hi", "hi ladies and gentlemen i'm sarah seitz i live at six hundred and fifty five boyer", "we will have lived in our house which is the direct center of the seven homes that are were originally on boyer", "we will have been there for a year on october 18th but we've been residents of boyer for the past almost seven years", "we rented a house that is behind tom's first house", "it's hidden but it's part of boyer", "so we've been residents there for quite a while and we've always enjoyed living on a nice quiet road", "we used to kinda walk and hike through the woods where what is now whispering pines", "so you know it's kind of not the best thing to us that there's a new now a new plan there but it's fine", "you know it's okay", "since we've moved there though the the no left turn sign has been our only saving grace", "i come not only representing my little family my two boys my husband and myself but all of us on boyer", "i'm trying to not get emotional sorry", "so anyway the no left turn sign is pretty much the only thing we have that prevents not only the cars going up the road but all of the construction vehicles that have been working and nobody regards the speed limit", "if a cop were to sit there and it has happened but of course probably no cars went by when the police officer was sitting there", "but i cook in my kitchen all day long and my window is right there front and center boyer road", "and i you know when we first moved in i started i thought oh i'm gonna write down the companies who are speeding", "and then i'm gonna call the police and let them know all these lawbreakers", "well forget that because it's impossible to count", "not only the names of these companies and people but the times of day i mean it's absolute it's out of control", "my boys and i love to go for walks", "we can no longer walk on boyer road because there is you know there's no sidewalk", "there's absolutely no safety whatsoever because a car coming down from the bottom up the road you can barely see", "they can't see us we can't see them because they're coming around a corner where there's a lot of you know greenery", "coming from the top the same thing", "cars absolutely fly", "so i don't feel safe walking on the road", "so like i could picture speed", "what did they call it speed bumps being a possible solution", "but you know cause i mean no one's gonna wanna speed and ruin their car over the bumps", "i could picture sidewalks being a possible solution", "it really makes me sad to think that the one little thing we have that people don't even obey", "it says no left turn", "i can't even tell you how many cars and trucks come out of there up the road", "and i and we've stopped several saying did you read the sign you're not allowed to come up this way and they say oh we can't move our trucks", "we can't help it well they disregard the sign", "so i mean i guess really if you take out the sign it doesn't matter much anyway but i feel like i really owe it to my children to come and speak up for for us", "we really us seven houses there we are the front and center people of boyer road", "the people in the plan no you know they this won't affect them whatsoever but us the seven houses my boys that are the future of boyer road you know we just wanna have a nice place to live", "we just wanna have a safe street to live on", "and we just want to be able to go for a walk", "we just want to be able to go for a walk on our road and not have to worry about being hit by a car", "i mean that's the bottom line", "i really understand that like mr taylor i know a lot of things go into factoring all of these details of a new plan and you know it's great", "it's kind of exciting because he might meet some new neighbor friends it's a new place for us to go walk up so i'm not completely", "you know i'm not", "i don't have bad feelings toward the plan in general", "i just would like to see our part of the street kept safe for the future of my kids", "it's really that's the bottom line", "and it just i really just can't believe that these people there's there's no law in place to protect us", "you know there's this i think it's the speed limit does say twenty five", "people don't listen", "there is a sign up a yellow children pedestrian type sign warning people that children live there", "they don't care", "we also have a little figure in our yard that says watch children playing nobody cares", "and i mean i've all but put it in the middle of the street", "i put it right there", "people speed all the time", "so so these are people coming down from both ways people leaving the plans making that left turn also flying down from the top", "so they make a left onto boyer off of bebout to go up to bower hill they're allowed to make a right", "exactly although they aren't allowed to speed which they do", "well that's a problem everywhere", "well not", "yes but like i said we don't have sidewalks", "we don't have anything to protect us", "and you", "there is like virgil pointed out there's a lot of trouble seeing around those curves both the bottom and the top", "there's a lot of greenery", "and when they're flying they won't see somebody that's and i'm not saying we stand in the road but there's no side of the road", "it's not that large of an area you know", "i just wanna make sure i get all my points across", "ideally like ideally i would love to see it be a dead end or a culdesac because up at the top that intersection is very dangerous", "i know you put the stop signs in and statistically hopefully that would help deter accidents or cut down cause i know there have been many but that's just not a safe place to emerge from anyway", "you know but at least in the very least if you could keep that sign there to at least try to help people realize oh we're not supposed to make a left", "like i said they don't really listen but it is the only saving grace we have", "yeah", "i think that's that's all i wanted to say", "oh one more point i wanna make", "i think is it twenty houses that are expected or is it forty forty", "forty houses for the new plan that's at least two cars per house in this day and age as we all know", "that is eighty new cars of traffic that will be entering and exiting boyer road all day long", "and that hasn't even begun yet", "i think there may be three or so houses that are lived in right now", "and with the even with that traffic it is it's a lot", "i am like afraid", "i'm actually so nervous about all of these people to move in and have all of this traffic going all day long", "jack do you wanna demonstrate how fast the cars go well he said he wanted to", "but anyway i think that's all i wanted to say but i just ask you please please to at least give us that that one thing just that no left turn", "it's it's all we have"], "name": ["Peters_Township_Council_-_August_25_2014/Peters_Township_Council_-_August_25_2014/Peters_Township_Council_-_August_25_2014_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Peters_Township_Council_-_August_25_2014/Peters_Township_Council_-_August_25_2014/Peters_Township_Council_-_August_25_2014_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "Peters_Township_Council_-_August_25_2014/Peters_Township_Council_-_August_25_2014/Peters_Township_Council_-_August_25_2014_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "Plan_Peters_2022_-_Open_House.flac", "identifier": "Plan_Peters_2022_-_Open_House", "text_document_id": "Plan_Peters_2022_-_Open_House.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [13510, 3333, 6393, 16623, 5860, 4213, 8419, 6901, 1380, 3938, 15442, 3873, 1080, 7963, 9093, 15750, 8550, 5010, 3190, 9170, 10040, 4070, 5330, 2580, 11590, 7627, 6533, 9480, 13780, 13393, 4610, 2570, 1680, 17973, 11260, 15720, 11240, 10293, 5430, 9013, 3059, 17370, 4410, 7003, 10510, 17740, 11940, 9063, 5265, 6841, 13582, 5623, 3550, 5720, 3693, 8120, 16370, 6350, 9080, 5435, 13905, 8620, 6433, 4643, 3560, 18807, 22343, 2570, 3200, 7270, 9950, 6130, 5160, 6193, 17383, 3900, 13590, 15213, 15390, 2970, 9040, 3380, 9413, 2350, 5030, 5960, 3480, 40870, 13018, 1542, 7300, 12760, 13290, 13150, 5630, 8330, 17550, 22293, 16730, 2940, 6430, 6280, 5760, 7620, 6810, 5000, 9345, 11778, 13913, 4410, 6913, 10680, 5013, 11610, 6470, 10760, 5340, 7460, 3210, 3710, 12010, 19040, 2753, 15960, 2560, 13500, 13463, 6360, 7053, 11897, 4760, 1510, 2483, 13640, 9177, 5366, 7220, 4780, 4130, 3553, 8095, 7560, 2403], "label": ["tonight is an introductory meeting to let the community know what's going on what we've been doing so far and what you might expect in the next few months", "so are we ready great thank you", "by way of introduction we have several people from our consulting team here", "when we break up after my comments we have displays around the room and we'll have various people expert in each of those areas to help answer questions or take your comments as we go", "to my left brad strator from lsl his specialty is transportation", "howard cone from the chesapeake group who's our market analyst", "craig gassman from mksk consultants in ohio he's our urban designer", "we have other people on the team who are not with us tonight and we have a number of townships", "oh i'm sorry", "kathleen duffy over there also from lsl", "and a number of staff people mike silvestri the township manager back here and zuk the township planning director and grant sharing also from the township planning staff", "and we have many steering committee members here", "okay great", "if you could just raise your hands and i'll explain the role of those folks in a minute but thank you for coming tonight", "so these are the people who really formed the core team working on this project", "the purpose of tonight's meeting as i said is to introduce you to the planning project to provide some background information we've been working now for roughly three months we started sometime in june", "and the initial phase of the project is just to collect information because we're all from outside the area", "we need to get to know this community well we've toured the community", "we've interviewed people we've done a number of things", "and what you'll see tonight essentially is the partial results of all those efforts", "we also want input from you regarding the challenges and the opportunities facing peters township", "the bottom line is this is your community not mine", "we don't want the comprehensive plan to be the consultant's plan", "it really needs to be your plan", "and so i'll explain a little more in a couple minutes but this is by no means the last opportunity you'll have to see what's going on and be involved", "but we wanted to do something very early on in the process to get you to participate", "and the last item there is to contemplate the desired vision", "the comprehensive plan really is a blueprint or a vision for the future what you want your community to be", "and it may be the community that it is today or maybe something different or maybe something that is essentially what we have but we want to improve in this area or that area or change this or that", "so we really need to pick your brain get your thoughts on what the ideal preferred community of peters township should be in the next ten twenty years", "so why are we doing a plan well number one it really is a blueprint for the future", "it is a policy guide", "it's a management tool", "it's something that we know that the township administration council planning commission use regularly to guide decisions on how to spend money where development should go what roads to improve and so on", "a means of identifying capital improvements roads drainage sidewalks pathways parks guides zoning decisions", "any zoning requests that comes into the township for new development is gonna be viewed in light of what the township comprehensive plan says", "what should the area be used for what kind of land use what kind of density what should it look like things like that are all in the comprehensive plan", "and last and probably least frankly is the fact that pennsylvania law requires that every ten years the township update the plan", "that's a stick to make sure it's done but it's certainly not the best reason for doing it", "and i suspect from what we know about peters township already the plan would be updated whether it was a requirement or not", "the last plan was done in two thousand and one", "much has been accomplished since then road improvements the community center park improvements some budgeting procedures lot of zoning amendments to the zoning regulations", "so much has been done since that plan was prepared", "so now it's time to take a fresh look at the community and figure out what the next work plan needs to look like", "in that plan and in the process of preparing that plan there were a number of issues identified by the community in meetings like this and in surveys", "and i've just put up a list of the major issues which interestingly enough is not all that different from many of the issues that you'll see here tonight that we've heard in the public involvement process that we've already undertaken", "so one of the things we're going to ask you is if you disagree with any of these things think they're no longer issues or think there's still issues and still important we want to know those things", "and certainly if there are other issues or challenges that weren't identified back in two thousand and one we need to know that as well", "the new plan will look at how the township has changed since two thousand and one", "certainly there's been a lot of growth a lot of new housing development a number of other changes that have occurred", "and so we want to take a look back and see what the community looked like ten eleven years ago compared to what it looks like now and analyze those patterns and those trends", "so little bit about our work plan what we intend to do and how we're going to get there", "there are several key elements to what we're doing", "one is a market study that is underway as we speak", "and howard is here if you have questions about that", "we wanna make sure that the recommendations that come out of this plan are realistic recommendations", "it's one thing to dream and to say oh wouldn't it be nice if we did this or had that but we want to look at market realities and make sure that the recommendations have some foundation in practicality or reality", "we're also gonna do some scenario building and that's going to happen before the end of the year", "where we gonna look at different growth and development options and evaluate what the implications are of those different options", "one certainly will be based on current zoning and current development patterns", "what are the impacts traffic impact on schools fiscal impact services required loss of open space things of that nature", "and then we'll define some other options with different characteristics and evaluate those as well", "just to get a sense of what really works and what's in the best interest of this community", "we're also gonna look at some very specific what we call character areas", "the comprehensive plan is sort of a bird'seye view of the township", "if you look at some of the maps over there we're looking township wide we're looking at existing land use we'll be looking at future land use but we want to get down to a street level if you will and identify areas that probably need some more detailed study", "we've talked about some of those like possibly the town center possibly picking a segment of route nineteen and maybe some others to come up with specific ideas about what might be done to improve conditions to make it more vibrant whatever the issues might be", "so that'll be a part of the plan as well", "then obviously a draft plan will be coming out", "we'll be providing information through the township website and other sources that i'll talk about in a minute", "so that you who are interested can keep track of what's going on and have information available to you as it's developed", "and then the last and certainly not the least is public engagement process", "this being part of that and i'm gonna talk about that in a little more detail in a minute", "the plan is to have the project finished next august fourteen month timeframe", "and we want the plan to be an action plan not just pretty pictures and nice maps but a real blueprint for what steps need to be taken to fulfill the plan and realize the vision that we've developed", "so in terms of engaging the public we doing a lot of things", "one is what we call targeted participation and we've already pretty much completed that part of it where we've done a number of oneonone interviews with key people in the community", "howard's done a number of interviews with local business people we've talked to a large property owners business owners citizens public officials county officials", "and also we've done a number of focus groups or small group discussions with a variety of groups again to pick their brains to get their insights about what's going on in the community what they like what they don't like what they'd like in the future", "and then community wide participation", "some of you here may have already participated in the resident survey that we did last month", "i think we closed it out about two weeks ago three weeks ago", "we had eight hundred and twenty households in the township participate in that survey which we were very impressed with", "that survey was available online", "i think it was available at the library and several other sources", "so that was one mechanism we used to get input from the community", "we've also established a project website", "some of you may have seen that and that's a good source of information to go to to keep up to date on what's going on with the project upcoming meetings draft materials that we're putting out open houses and workshops tonight being the first of those we'll also be doing an educational series where the township will be bringing in a number of guest speakers to talk about land use issues growth issues futurists to look at trends nationally", "just to help people understand what factors may be influencing this community and others what trends are going on across the country", "and then social media", "we've got a facebook page where we also provide information on the project", "and then we have the direct representation i mentioned the steering committee the planning commission and town council will be very actively involved in the project as we move forward", "so there are a lot of different levels and different activities within each level where we wanna give people a variety of means of being involved in the project", "just a few quick facts and you'll find others as well as these on some of the boards but the township was three thousand people in one thousand nine hundred and fifty", "and as of the two thousand and ten census it's twenty one thousand two hundred and thirteen", "so you can see by the graph there's been substantial growth every decade since one thousand nine hundred and fifty", "the age profile is very interesting because typically when we look at an age profile in communities we see more or less of a bell curve where the middle age groups are the most prevalent", "and here we have a spike in the age group basically eighteen and under and we have a spike in the age group of forty and above but those middle age groups are relatively underrepresented in peters township", "income when we look at comparable communities or comparable areas washington county southwest pennsylvania the state of pennsylvania and the country as a whole the median income is right around fifty thousand a year", "in peters township we double that amount", "so clearly this is an affluent community highly educated", "the number or percentage of people with college degrees or graduate degrees", "is substantially higher than what it is for those comparable areas that we've looked at", "so just some interesting facts and like i said there'll be some others on the boards", "so some things we've heard so far in all of the meetings we've conducted in the surveys we've done and so on", "as i said in the market survey we had eight hundred and twenty survey responses", "one thing we found is a likely need for offices in the township something that's probably not a great surprise to anyone", "there are a few employment opportunities in peters township and most of the businesses on the west end of the township state route nineteen", "and that has come up in a number of the groups we've talked to as a concern because of traffic and distance of route nineteen from where a lot of the people in the community live", "mobility often called transportation", "but we wanna start looking at transportation as more than moving cars and trucks", "making the community more walkable more bikeable looking at transit needs dealing with vehicular congestion", "two areas that are obvious are east mcmurray and state route nineteen", "and then some of the concepts that we'll be looking at complete streets access management and great streets", "and again the concept of making streets more than just a means of moving traffic", "housing some of the issues we've heard so far we need more housing to meet the growing population", "we have limited options for housing for the aging population", "people who wanna stay in peters township but wanna move out of a single family home or a large home", "and don't really have a lot of options to do that", "the high cost of housing and excessive lot sizes", "some people just think that the halfacre minimum lot size is probably not something that should be throughout the community", "you can see on the chart there we've done some rough projections and based on low population projections we'd need to add about a one hundred housing units per year and on the high end about one hundred and fifty housing units per year", "so there's a lot of potential demand", "the character of the community one area that's almost always mentioned is route nineteen as being less than the kind of character that is representative of peters township", "a lack of a sense of community", "you know we live here we've got twenty thousand plus people living here but there's a feeling that we really don't feel like a community or don't identify as a peters township community", "the identity of the town center we've actually had some people say well where is the town center for those of you that may fall into that category it's east mcmurray and valley brook road", "sameness that's been a comment we've heard that the community doesn't have a lot of diversity", "it's pretty much cookie cutter kind of look", "and usable open space we've got a number of developments that have open space in them but they're a little pieces here little pieces there and it's not really usable open space", "it's not open space that has a visual impact", "it makes the development better", "so there's been some comment about that as well", "then quality of life for certainly when we ask why did you move to peters township or why do you stay in peters township the number one and number two reasons are great schools and low taxes", "but then on the flip side we've heard there's a lack of activity for teenagers in the community", "there's some concern about that but again on the plus side we've got a great community center", "so tonight as i said we're here to listen to you to get your thoughts", "we invite you to look at the displays talk to the people", "we have comment cards at a number of the displays", "we'd like you to fill those out", "and the concept here is to make this an informal interactive but important meeting", "and so with that we will ask you to disperse and talk to us individually", "if you have questions thank you"], "name": ["Plan_Peters_2022_-_Open_House/Plan_Peters_2022_-_Open_House/Plan_Peters_2022_-_Open_House_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Plan_Peters_2022_-_Open_House/Plan_Peters_2022_-_Open_House/Plan_Peters_2022_-_Open_House_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "Plan_Peters_2022_-_Open_House/Plan_Peters_2022_-_Open_House/Plan_Peters_2022_-_Open_House_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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4978, 1412, 6635, 19355, 9214, 3682, 1016, 1700, 1954, 2686, 3870, 25400, 12130, 8630, 1300, 2610, 3870, 4360, 1635, 2502], "label": ["thank you all for coming i'm confined to my mic here", "so i have to be very unmobile", "i would like to talk today about webcamming as a practice and the promises of webcamming", "this paper is in the framework of a larger project that looks at the ways in which the internet has transformed pornography and has transformed it from a a literary genre into a form of communication interactive and online always on", "and webcamming is one of the manifestations is one of the avenues to create a an online relationship an online connection that can and indeed has often a an erotic or a sexual component", "so and then the question arises what is a webcamming as a form of of sex work if it's not prostitution and by the way by the way when i say prostitution i look at it as a positive thing not shameful or or a social problem though", "though prostitution can be a social problem or pornography", "i mean it's somewhere in between and that's why it's tolerated", "also legally when people perform sexually the law does not really is isn't welldefined on what's going on when people perform sexually in webcamming", "so the starting point in my discussion is the the debate between cyber skeptics and cyber utopians", "as you probably know this is a major i mean really defines the way we look at the internet", "the internet started with a whole list of cyber utopians listing all the virtues and benefits of this new invention for humanity", "and as we go on a growing list of cyber skeptics that have brought us to today and the way we view the internet and its ills and problems affecting society affecting politics affecting our social lives affecting the way in which we interact or do not interact", "and the watershed point in the history of the internet is when it became commercialized", "so in one thousand nine hundred and eighty five and then more prominently in one thousand nine hundred and ninety one when commercial interests where business interests have entered this cyberspace and have remarkably transformed it into a business driven a business driven space", "so webcamming was available before it became exploited by websites like live jasmine or i'm live to create wealth for the platform owners", "so very briefly these are platforms that still exist", "the owners are immensely wealthy just as an example live jasmine is owned by a hungarian", "he's the wealthiest hungarian on the planet owning this one single platform", "and what this does is really is a is a particular example of how commercial interests transform what we do or what we did online even before there were commercial commercial interest or money involved", "so people could webcam for various purposes but on such platforms i mean the owners of those platforms they've created an exploitative platform that uses people in countries without a lot of other opportunities for livelihoods like the philippines romania where a large number of performers through webcamming work for their livelihoods on these websites", "they receive a very small percentage of the of the payments for their performances", "they end the most dehumanizing aspect is a ranking system", "so a performer on these platforms have to comply with the viewer's pleasure because they know that they are going to be ranked and many of them so this is based on investigations into this on into this sphere", "they are coerced in situations of oneonone viewer and performer", "they are actually coercing to doing things that they don't want to do", "and oftentimes they do it at home in the presence of others for lack of privacy", "and this is an extremely concerning there's more and more evidence that this is a very very i mean an undignified practice for those who are pushed into this kind of practice", "also there is a whole system of recruiting these performers and hiring them in such a way that the owners of the platforms are not incriminated incriminated in any way", "so this is a very it's a dark side but a typical side of globalized economy where hightech hightech companies who actually working as virtual pimps do this kind of operation but they are they have legal means to distance themselves from any repercussions and the only way to push them into admitting what they're doing including their employees is to shame them by investigative journalism and that's actually happening", "but then chatter bait showed up and chatter bait i mean it looks similar visually when you look at the homepage of chatter bait and those websites and it was launched in two thousand and eleven interestingly it's a colombian owned company", "it's not an american hightech company", "it's a company that evolved in the periphery and outside of the silicon valley or outside of the west if you will", "and when i started observing chatter bait two and a half years ago it ranked three hundred and eighty eight on alexa", "right now it ranks one hundred and forty four", "so this means it's a it's a huge success", "it is a commercial platform", "in other words the owners of the platform share fifty of the proceeds but there are vital differences between chatter bait and the other platforms the commercial platforms", "number one the performers are autonomous and they they are they voluntarily perform they're not hired by anyone there's no intermediary who coerces them or finds devious ways to have them perform", "and and it raises a question i mean of the autonomy and the will to actually engage in such performance", "also chatter bait is completely free free to watch and free to participate you can tip", "so the whole there's a whole question about the nature of tipping as a form of payment", "what is tipping is it a form of recognition is it just another way of making money i mean i think this is an important question", "chatter bait operates on tipping", "so some of the viewers have can buy tokens which they can use for tipping while other performers don't need to tip", "number three there is a sharing economy aspect to chatter bait in the sense that some of the performances can be i mean some of the performances can go into a private mode", "excuse me some of the performances could go into a private mode but the chat part of the screen remains open for everyone", "so what you get is you get into the room but you can't see what's happening", "and the sharing works in sharing information on what's happening", "hopefully what's happening for those who can watch those who have paid a ticket and hopefully have others buy a ticket and join", "and also chatter bait involves microcommunities", "so some of the performers and i've followed those over time", "some of the performers developed microcommunities i mean fans who follow them and there's a and it's interactive it's interactive in a way that governed by the owners of the platform is not meant to be abusive and can't be abusive", "i mean it's a multiple viewer situation where the performers can can block viewers who are abusive this way or another", "so i'm asking myself oh okay i want to say one more thing", "there is a growing there are two aspects of chatter bait that highlight the problem of money when money enters interactions such as this so sexual interactions or eroticize interactions", "number one there is a marked difference between countries that have economic opportunities for people and countries that don't", "and people that perform and come from such countries you could see that the need for the supplemental income changes the nature of the performance", "so they're willing to do more or willing to appear more say on a daily basis as opposed to performers who come from countries like the united states for example who just sporadically appear say once a week twice a week three times a week you can see other countries where people show their performances even twice a day", "so that's one difference", "another difference is once chatter bait reached a tipping point in terms of making enough money you would see producers", "so you could see performances you know somebody's running them they're in the background they are actually operating the cameras and they're telling the performers what to do", "so abuse potentially can enter that way money enters", "and so and a lot of people can benefit from the proceeds", "so you can see this kind of interaction that was absent before that tipping point", "my time is up so thank you very much", "okay", "so today i'm going to talk to you about an auto ethnography survey study that i did on the crossfit open", "this is actually part of a much larger study which would be my actual doctorate study which is about influencer culture and particularly fitness influencers", "so what i am interested to look at in terms of crossfit crossfit is a brand at a corporation and it's also an exercise and program regime", "so crossfit is particularly interesting because how much of it relies on social media particularly aspects of social media that relate to surveillance and this idea of monetizing the surveillance of social media", "so to start what is crossfit so crossfit and this is where the title of my program comes in or the title of my presentation comes in", "their tagline is constantly varied functional fitness so crossfit is a mix of gymnastics weightlifting and cardiovascular exercises that are performed at very high intensity but can be scaled for every individual member of the crossfit community", "something that's really important to keep in mind when we talk about crossfit is that it is community based", "before i came into the presentation today i opened google maps and actually found out that the closest crossfit box is just two blocks down", "so it's a store of barbell and prospect athletic club i believe so i might call it in there afterwards to check", "crossfit values itself on being measurable", "so greg glassman was the founder of crossfit in the year two thousand", "it began with just a handful of fitness enthusiasts that would workout in his garage garage sorry", "and it's now become thirteen thousand boxes which is what crossfit calls gyms that are in one hundred and twenty countries", "so i'm from ireland if you haven't guessed because of my accent", "so my auto ethnography took place in my local crossfit box which is crossfit limerick", "so the open is a five week long international crossfit competition that's open access", "so anybody who's a member of a crossfit gym can join the open", "so you pay a small registration fee you enter your details online", "you decide which division you will be entered in really interesting part of selecting your division is it's not just broken down by gender and age group it's also broken down by ability or scalability", "so the most elite crossfit athletes who are often kind of the fittest people on earth perform every exercise or watch which is workout of the day at or x so like prescription", "so data measuring biometrics biomechanics all of these things are incredibly important to crossfit which is a communitybased program which also becomes really scientific when you start to get to the detail of it", "so my auto ethnography took place from the 22nd of february to the 26th of march", "the workouts for the open already started thursday", "and you have to submit your score by a monday", "this means that some people will actually do the workouts twice which is horrible because these workouts are designed to test the fittest people on earth", "you often see people rolling around on the ground sweating really really really uncomfortable afterwards but people do it twice because they want to win", "they want to be crowned the fittest on earth", "i for the record did not do a workout twice for the duration of my auto ethnography", "i am very much a researcher but i also value being able to go up and down the stairs", "crossfit inc which is the corporation crossfit maximize their community engagement using social media", "the image on the side of the screen is from dave castro's instagram", "david castro is the director of the crossfit games", "he uses social media a lot", "instagram in particular is where throughout the open he will post clues and it starts whole conspiracy theories about what the workouts are going to be announced on thursday", "this year there was a slight shift in the power dynamic of crossfit and the open and that the very last workout was left up to a public vote where any member of the crossfit community whether they were in the competition or not could go on facebook and select workout one two or three for people to perform on thursday and until monday", "what's really interesting about crossfit is here with this power dynamic and we're kind of entering foucalt because i can't talk about surveillance and not talk about foucalt", "this idea of the power of the institutions shifting to the public", "and it's not necessarily the health and medical experts but we're seeing this big shift within the crossfit community of anybody can be an expert if you've got your crossfit level one certificate training done you can train the others you monitor their progress you monitor the standards of their movements and ultimately you can judge them on their way to becoming the fittest on earth", "so what's really important to crossfit is that their program is driven by data", "so in the gym your scores for every workout that you do on the day are gonna be recorded on a whiteboard sometimes even on chalkboards", "what has happened with crossfit a lot in the last couple of years bear in mind you started in two thousand and now we're in two thousand and eighteen is that technology has become synonymous with the crossfit lifestyle", "there is an app for everything whether it's the wad or wodify app that you see here on the screen where you see your workout of the day the reps and the movements that you have to do and you can record them and share them with your community or indeed with the larger global community if they're using the app", "but you can also bring it down to a local level", "and within your local community gym you can see a leaderboard of who in your gym did the best that day and different rankings", "so again there's precise rules and standards for your performance", "so what's interesting about this technology is that it interacts with the community aspect of crossfit", "and you start to see that people will comment on one another's scores that they've inputted in the day and said one of your two of your reps were just a little bit shy of a full depth squat", "a competitiveness a hyper competitive starts to take place", "so these are two particular crossfit influencers that i kept kind of in touch with or kind of in line with when i was doing the open this year", "so on the left side of the screen is jordan", "her youtube channel is jackedlikejordan and on the right one of these to the far right is an actual crossfit games athlete bk goodmanson", "and on the left of that picture is craig richie who's based in the uk", "what i think is particularly interesting is that these influencers use youtube and instagram in particular to keep everybody up to date", "what i think is really really interesting about crossfit is that when i'm in the gym in limerick in ireland i have my phone out all of the time we're recording one another we're sharing each other's images and videos just like the influencers that we watch on youtube and on instagram", "there's a blurring of a boundary between what's online and what's offline", "so when bojack was talking about a hyperreality or a parallel reality this lens that we see that kind of distorts what is the physical here and now", "when you step into a crossfit gym the physical here and now is also being projected on a facebook live video for about five thousand viewers if you wanted to", "so we see this kind of disruption in terms of online and offline", "to what is online is fish and what's offline is something that could be considered an illness", "crossfit inc has taken up major issue with sugar and soft drinks pepsi and cocacola they have a very very regulated lifestyle which they track and monitor and share online all of the time", "but they don't see themselves as being abnormal", "that lifestyle is normal", "that constant monitoring and tracking using my fitness pal using all of their different apps is part of the normal lifestyle", "when the boundary between offline and online is blurred you start to wonder if when i leave the gym on a thursday evening if i'm not tracking what i have to eat afterwards am i suddenly abnormal am i not going to be the fittest on earth anymore as long as i have my phone in my hand and i'm connected to the crossfit community i'm online all of the time i'm in a hyperreality i'm in a parallel reality space", "so we see that there's this convergence between online and offline and it becomes quite matrix like and i don't know if i should always be doing squats", "if i should just be waiting for the elevator do i get off or do i get down my phone is in my pocket", "should i be tracking all of my movements all of the time so on the right hand side of the screen you can see that this is actually the app that my local crossfit gym in limerick use", "and you can see also that crossfit inc have got a global map where you can find your local community", "there's no off button", "crossfit is everywhere all of the time", "as soon as you create your social media account and you let your gym owners know that you have one", "the process for the open which begins this type of convergence and the parallel reality", "you sign up and you pay a fee", "you wait for the open announcement to be done on facebook live on a thursday", "you're following the hashtags you're looking at it on social media", "you're assigned to judge you perform a workout and you submit your scores you check your global leaderboard to see your position on it and you repeat it five times constantly getting feedback", "again these are just two", "the influencers that i looked at and what was most interesting about this auto ethnography", "what i found was that the open challenges competitors to perform a specific type of authenticity", "this type of disciplined authenticity is something that we're seeing on the rise more and more with influencers", "particularly the two influencers that i watched throughout the process of the crossfit open", "they're not elite athletes they're just like you and me", "that authenticity is incredibly clear in all of the content that they produced", "the third workout in the open this year was massively challenging", "you had to do handstand walks and handstand pushups", "both of the influencers that i showed you earlier struggled immensely with that workout as did i in the gym because i can't walk on my hands", "what's interesting about their content and their self branding as a normative strategy is that even their authenticity and their content is disciplined and it's regulated", "they have sponsors they have brands they need to get a certain amount of views or likes on instagram and youtube", "so while there is a stratification of the elite crossfit athletes and the everyday person what's more interesting is to look at this disciplined authenticity at a regulated authenticity that occurs within the larger global community", "so the space between the digital athletic self and the physical self is complicated and it collapses", "so this convergence between online and offline i like what girard said a chain of investments and reinvestments must never stop", "so this is where that disciplined authenticity is highlighted", "and i'm out of time okay thank you", "hi everyone hi", "can you hear us we just want to say thank you for having us here today", "we're also always very grateful to have the opportunity to share our work", "i'm elisa deplisinger", "i'm kristin miller", "i'm sorry i should come through but we also get i'm not sure what we need to do okay good morning everyone", "thanks whitney for helping me out", "my name is alana reyes and i'm really excited to be part of this panel that's kicking off to theorizing the web two thousand and eighteen", "before i start i want to mention two things", "i'm going to be referencing some superhero media in my presentation but there won't be any spoilers", "so infinity war fans you're safe here", "and second i'm going to be doing my best to describe the visuals on my slides both for accessibility purposes and so you know why i chose to put some pictures on my slides", "this first slide is easy because it's just a couple of words", "ability and technology which are my keywords for today's presentation", "today i want to take a closer look at the ways our differently abled bodies move through a world that's increasingly filled with technology", "i also want to think about the ways that these differently abled bodies are represented in the media that we consume every day", "in particular i want to ask this question", "what makes us think of specific technologies as only meant for certain bodies so as a starting point for asking this question i want to look at superheroes and disability in particular", "now putting these ideas together might seem really counterintuitive at first", "you might be thinking superheroes and disability aren't they like opposites well if you think about ability as this linear spectrum you can put ability disability on one end and super ability on the other", "but i don't like to think of ability as linear", "another way of thinking about superheroes and disability together are by thinking about how they're both distant from what we think of as normal bodies", "i also think superheroes are a great starting point to ask this question because they're everywhere today", "i mean infinity war comes out today", "there's other movies like black panther there's tv shows like gotham and like teen titans go my guilty pleasure", "you see them on lunchboxes tshirts so many places offline and online", "so given this ubiquity of superheroes and these images it's important to ask ourselves these two questions", "how did these images of superheroes ability and technology shape our understandings of both those images and ourselves and since this isn't just a oneway relationship we should also ask this reciprocal question", "how does our understanding and our embodied experience shape the creation and reification of these images about technology and superheroes is it possible that we are perhaps perpetuating ideas about our bodies and technology that we use by writing them into our real lives i mentioned earlier that there are some direct links between superheroes and disability", "and one really great example is a mascot team from morgan's wonderland an accessible theme park in austin texas", "i found out about this theme park through aimi hamraie's book building access and on this slide you can see a picture of the morgan's wonderland logo subtitled a special place for special friends aimi hamraie describes this theme park as meant for children with many levels of ability and mobility", "the mascots of morgan's wonderland are for children called the wonder squad which you'll see in the next two slides using screen grabs i got from their website", "the text is a little small but i encourage you to check out their website and learn more about the wonder squad", "the wonder squad is superheroes of morgan's wonderland brought together by circumstance and fate", "four young heroes turning their disabilities into super abilities we have morgan their leader who uses wings and has a cognitive delay but has emotional gifts that bestow her with wings like a butterfly", "we have rocket the mechanical genius who built the own built and designed the wheelchair that he uses", "xray with a visual disability who uses a seeing eye dog and jet who has cerebral palsy but uses jet powered crutches designed by rocket", "so these wheelchairs these jet powered crutches these are some immediately familiar images of what kind of assistive technologies can look like", "but i want to take a really quick look about how we can define assistive technology because it's it's a lot broader than just these two examples you see here", "the next slide is the us government definition of assistive technology", "according to the assistive technology act of one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight which says any assistive technology is any item piece of equipment or product system whether acquired commercially modified or customized that is used to increase maintain or improve functional capabilities of individuals with disabilities that is a very long definition", "but i want to call your attention to two things", "the first is that it's by definition it is broad", "it is supposed to include a wide array of technologies", "but second is actually written into the definition that it's for individuals with disabilities", "and i also want to remind everybody that assistive technology can take some simpler less mechanized forms that many people use every day", "for example on this slide you can see a picture of a curb cut or the ramps that are built into sidewalks all around the united states that i actually used to get up into the museum of moving image today", "and these assistive technologies are useful for bodies with many levels of mobility", "wheelchair users were their primary users in mind when this when curb cuts were designed and implemented but they also benefit people like you and me who would like to walk on surfaces without stomping and getting up and down gutters and people who use devices like strollers and other things with wheels roller blades for that matter", "but i promised you some superhero analysis today", "so let's get back to some superheroes", "here are two of my favorites who use some really iconic technology", "on the left we have ironman in his suit and hiding in the shadows on this dark slide is batman on the right", "these are two men two billionaires two heroes that are by all means amazing", "but these heroes are also upholding this idea that certain bodies certain wallets and certain ability levels have exclusive access to certain technologies", "so let's not focus on these guys because they're only going to lead to some sad analysis", "instead i want to tell you about this new anime that i found that i think does a great job of talking about technology and the broad reach that it can have", "it is called my hero academia and the posters on this slide", "are there any fans here yeah", "okay season yes", "yes please watch it", "season three is airing right now and i won't spoil anything beyond what you'll see in like episodes one and two", "okay i'll leave it on this slide for a bit", "so this show i love it because it's a really great it's a really richly structured show", "we're thinking about different ability levels and the way that societies can be built around them to accommodate them", "it takes place in a fictional city in japan where eighty of the world's population is born with a quirk or a super human ability", "now these quirks can range from things that are like really flashy", "like there's one character in the show whose right hand blasts out ice and his left hand blasts out fire and he's like learning how to use them at the same time", "but only eighty of the world has the quirks", "so what's interesting is the protagonist who you'll see on this slide izuku midoriya was born without a quirk", "and part of the storyline is how he navigates being in this society without a quirk although tiny spoiler he ends up inheriting a quirk but that's in like episode two so you'll see it right away", "but but again it's great for thinking about ability and disability management because most of the show is him learning how to learn use this quirk that he's inherited", "so i i adore this show", "also because on this slide you can see a group of teenagers in high school uniforms", "of course it wouldn't be an anime if part of it didn't take place with high school uniforms right my hero academia follows this group of teenagers as they go to high school to complete a hero course which allows them to be certified as professional heroes in a society that employs and licenses heroes", "it recognizes them beyond the way xmen recognizes mutants", "and even beyond the way that justice league and avengers everybody's like always battling each other and they're always getting in trouble", "this is a really different way of conceptualizing heroes and how they can operate within society", "i also really love this show because every single student gets their own hero costume", "so on this slide is a picture of the students like immediately after they try on their hero costumes", "i think this is later in season one", "as you can see they're really flashy", "they allow a lot of personality to come out for each student", "but what's great is that they're specifically designed for each student's own abilities", "and by putting this technology in the hands of children and students who are explicitly still learning how to use this technology and manage their own abilities i think the anime does a fantastic job of promoting this idea that all sorts of bodies can use all sorts of technology", "even better these costumes that you can see here are designed by other students at the high school", "so these students at the high school not only are they learning how to be heroes but some of the students are learning how to design technology and make it for other students", "in season two you get to see a character called mei hatsume or hatsume as they refer to her in the anime because last names are often used as first in animes", "she's one of the characters who's learning how to make support technology", "and you get to see a few episodes where she's designing this technology that both balances out people's weaknesses and amplifies other students strengths", "so but this also leads me to another pattern that i noticed", "mei's characterized as a genius a child prodigy", "and when i thought about a lot of other media that i think that i watched that have superheroes in them a lot of the technology designers are geniuses", "for example let's look at on the left", "we have tony stark in his lab working with jarvis to design something", "and on the right we have shuri from black panther who is now my favorite marvel character but she's also characterized as a genius a child prodigy and even returning to our friend rocket from the wonder squad in the second sentence of his description you see he's characterized as a mechanical genius", "so who cares that they're all geniuses why can't we just be happy that a wider array of technology designers are in the media compared to the billionaire genius playboy philanthropists that we're used to seeing yes we can be really happy about this and i'm thrilled to see shuri and rocket as really capable and able to design their own technology", "but going back to our original question of how do these ideas and representations coconstitute each other", "we might still be reinforcing this idea that tech and its creation only belongs to geniuses", "so i'm hopeful that as more media like academia my hero academia comes out and we can continue to show more learning tweaking and iterative processes that go into learning and making assistive technology", "maybe we can stop writing this idea into our own lives that assisted technologies only belong to certain people", "how do these images in our understanding shape each other that's something that you can take with you as you watch infinity war tonight or tomorrow or whenever you get to go see it", "and with that thank you very much for listening", "and please watch my hero academia and tweet me when you watch it so i can see your responses", "okay so while the last panelist are setting up i'm going to give you the first qa question ahead of time so you could all think about it and we don't have to waste time with it while they're setting up", "what i'm gonna ask our panelists is i've been thinking a lot about the looking glass self recently probably because i hang out with a sixteen month old", "but what that is is the idea that people come to know themselves through the way that other people react to them", "and i think what a lot of we're seeing here is the people that are members of these specific communities that have particular relationships to technology", "and so what i would like all of our panelists to talk about for our first question is how the people in the groups that they looked at come to know themselves through the members of the communities that they're in and what role technology plays in that coming to know themselves in that way", "all right thanks everyone", "i'm elizabeth this is kristen let's go", "so our paper's called possible futures of embodied biotech i think this one sorry", "okay", "so recently there's been a lot of interest in something called the fourth industrial revolution which has been there's been a lot of talk about ai and robotics taking over the world but there's also an other aspect of it where electronics and biology are becoming more fungible they're blending", "and so we're looking at this fourth industrial revolutionary moment which", "we are going to talk about that with regard to how this is translating into technologies that work with the human body", "so this excitement has translated into a lot of ra ra who ha out there in the world and media", "so there are people out there like at the consumer electronics show last january in las vegas saying things like just around the corner are wearables made from materials that aren't even in our vocabulary yet", "or you know at the fashion tech lab at biofabricated the revolution is coming and you were either in or you're out and you know how fashion people don't like to be out", "and then in talking about this lovely garment on the upper righthand corner it's filled with these microorganisms that never interact in nature", "they've been here engineered for the first time to have a relationship inside a piece of clothing", "think of it as an evolution not by natural selection but evolution by design", "and the garment in the upper right is from the mit media lab that's out of neri oxman's project and it's bioorganisms that have been engineered to support apparently support the body of the wearer during interstellar travel", "that's the idea anyway", "during which you'll want to wear your side boob", "so we're thinking about the where the body machine interface is headed and we're analyzing this through critical data studies fashion studies transhumanism versus posthumanism and this sociology of the body under neoliberalism", "and interestingly if you google when i googled transient transhumanism i got this lovely all hooked up and beautiful", "and when i googled posthumanism i got this sad little homunculus", "which might actually be a good visual representation of what it is to live as a body under the pressures of neoliberalism", "and so there are a number of animating questions for this project that we want to talk about the but you know most importantly how have the internet portables and the wearable technologies put the body's resources to work what forces will attempt to normalize and facilitate this transition and how fashion how is fashion involved in this process and what are the limits of the body when technologies elements and interfaces are increasingly organic and cellular is this me yes", "oh it's me okay", "so there's a lot of names up there but basically i want to give you kind of the the background intellectually and academically where we were coming from in terms of frameworks of thinking about labor and all of these influenced my definition that's cut off of glamor labor which is the work most of us carry out when we select images of optimal body and self for our instagram account or other social media accounts", "and it's a way it's thinking about how we put in work to be attractive through the aid of technology discipline and manipulation", "so glamor labor really is the work with technology to achieve a certain type of body and self that the technology actually pulls for", "so different technologies pull for different selves and thinking from the internet to social media and now wearable tech is kind of the background of where we're coming through from with this project", "one of the other frames that we're using for our analysis is to look at this the these varying forms of wearable technology through the sort of discourse of transhumanism and then also the critical approaches of the posthuman critique", "and i assume that there's fairly broad familiarity in this room with these concepts but just briefly transhumanism is a anthropocentric technocentric human enhancement ideology often called humanity plus and it often suggests that science and technology can innovate around physical limits and social inequities whereas post humanism although it's kind of cut off at the bottom here but often posthuman the word posthuman crops up in transhumanist discourse as a kind of like post technological singularity end stage of transhumanism in which humanity and technology have completely fused", "but post humanism as a school of critique is post anthropocentric", "posthuman it's a critical philosophy that applies intersectional lenses of gender race class sexual orientation ability and age to show that the human is not one but many and also makes room for the nonhuman in its analysis as well as the role of power", "so there are two phases of the study and the first phase was looking at wearable technology electronic technology", "and we did a bicoastal investigation in california and new york city or on the east coast anyway", "we talked to twenty five we did twenty five interviews of fashion fashion designers and tech designers and also did participant observation at professional gatherings of the same type of people", "and we really looked at portable and wearable tech fashion and gender especially with regard to the technologies designed for femme identified women", "yeah", "and you know that is women and for the purpose of this presentation as men as inclusively with regards to gender", "so there are a number of findings that were the results of this project or at least the first phase of this project which probably will be familiar to anybody who studies the tech industry broadly", "the first and most important is that our interviewees and our observation reveals that unsurprisingly there is a young white cis male monoculture of wearable tech research and design that leads to inattention to other demographics", "there are also problematic assumptions that are built into many of the projects such as women as the female body or women as potential victims", "many of these projects visualize quote unquote difficult to read emotional responses by translating biometric data", "and there is both extreme interest in extracting and monetizing data as well as insufficient privacy protection for that data", "and just quickly by that programmer over there", "this is a dress that was surprisingly designed by a woman but it is a dress that it's designed to gradually grow more transparent as the wearer becomes sexually aroused", "so in the course of this project one of the things that that emerged in our discussions was that we felt like we needed a workable definition beyond wearable technology to talk about many of the projects that we were looking at especially as wearable technologies increasingly starting to cross over into biodesign biotech and bio fabrication", "and so we really like andrew iliadis and isabel peterson's definition of embody technology as something that we can move forward with because it allows us to discuss not only technology that is prosthetic and contact with the skin but technologies that are implantable injectable or even ingestible and that are increasingly working with the body on a cellular level", "so when we're talking about biotech and biowear what exactly do we mean so biowear is equal parts biotechnology things that you interact with and shaped the human body through bacterial and other cellular channels", "it's wearable tech that meets tracks and translates blood sweat and tears converting bodily processes into data", "and it's also involved the biofabrication and synthetic biology", "biology which engages genetic modification of organisms and processes for the production of fibers and garments an inch of interest in particular is this patch is a patch that you can put on your loved ones and it reads the composition of the person's sweat", "it locates them tells you how they're feeling tells you about their health", "and my it's a lot of surveillance going on there", "so interesting", "we can explain this one in the qa when we come back", "oh and so then the next phase of the project then was moving into really trying to understand embodied biotech", "so we've expanded the study to look at embodied technology not just wearable tech and the interview subjects have been synthetic biologists biodesigners biofabricators and wearable wearables designers that are engaging with biological materials", "so and there's also been we've been doing participant observation at conferences like the one called biofabricate", "and we can talk more about exactly what biofabrication is but we have an example here which we'll get to in a second and fashion conferences that also have to do with like new materials", "so for instance in the upper righthand corner is", "oh that's gingko bioworks and fabric futures project that uses i think transgenic bacteria to dye fabric", "and the bottom one is an outfit that was grown from yeast", "we're running out of time", "so the main finding is most of the people we talked to said yeah this field is dominated by women", "so it's going to be different from what you found going on with wearable tech there are different metaphors for the body that are being used", "and also there's this idea that maybe this biofabrication technology might solve some of the problems of the fashion industry in terms of waste and over consumption", "so share our questions", "yeah some questions that we had based on our again our interview subjects responses was well this woman dominated biofabrication field or movement actually deliver on its promises and are the industrial footprint footprint of biotech fabrication and its ideological frame is really so different from the prevailing attitudes of the tech community broadly", "and so wanted to close by talking about yeah something that you may have noticed throughout the course of this presentation which is that in the marketing and display of wearables there is repetitive use of a young white enabled thin feminine generally blonde even and partially clothed bodies to display and market these technologies", "and even in the most speculative corners of embodied design which most of these projects represent where there are more likely to be women in lead positions and you might expect they're far more social critique", "the representation of normative gender and bd standards is basically unaltered", "and so while designers often feel free to push the boundaries of living matter woman appears as a pretty narrow and inflexible category for all of the sort of messiness and viscerality and goop and cellulose", "and so you know given that that woman seems to be written as almost biologically female one might sense low investment in using these technologies to enable the lives and bodies of anyone beyond the already privileged", "so the prominent women biodesigners are also generally providing a kind of glamor labor for the less quote unquote sexy aspects of the the tech industries that underwrite their projects you know and it's in the the captions on most of these images but many of these projects like mariato's project is underwritten by stratasis", "this 3d like gaze is actually wearable up here is underwritten by autodesk", "anyway so just be one second", "so basically what we want to ask is if it's really so revolutionary to make space and a stem for the feminine if what that feminine is doing is simply reinforcing old binaries that render you know femininity as inherently biological squelchy messy visceral and you know that renders the body and the biological is something that should be ever ready for exploitation", "yeah", "and so you know clearly there are important potentials in many of these technologies for just citizen science and dra medicine", "so the problem is possibly not the technology but the uses to which it's being put and for what purposes", "and so we wanted to ask to close like what might some alternatives look like to prevent this discussion from seeming potentially luddite and one of the projects that we looked at was this embody suit which is a project that that pulls ambient data in close to the body of the wearer and makes uses haptic sensors to make the body of the wearer you know aware of whatever kind of tech data that's in their ambient environment that they choose to be aware of", "so i guess we're done but", "we can talk about that more yeah we can talk about this more in the qa and you know some of our thoughts around this slide thank you", "thank you", "if all our panelists could come up to the front", "and we've got our first discussion topic is going to be tech and self knowledge", "go", "oh then for everybody else if you want to ask questions i'll be running up and down with this mic just raise your hand and i will try to get to everybody before we run out of time", "who wants to go first okay so", "i guess the thing that got me interested in this idea in this topic that i just presented on you know how when you were little or like you see kids doing this they look at posters and things like on twitter a few weeks ago there was this video of two two black children who were looking at this poster of black panther and they were like i'm that one", "and you're that one", "i used to do that with my brother all the time when we were kids and he has a visual disability", "and so if anyone's seen the original comics for teen titans i really like that show and one of the characters his name is cyborg", "and so my brother used to say oh i have to be cyborg because i have visual impairment", "and that was something that really stuck with me because he was choosing the cyborg because he felt like he had to and not because he felt like he matched with cyborg", "and so i guess to answer the earlier question like how how would we see how our study subjects see each other and how it informs our research that that was my starting point", "and i think that's more common than anything", "i think a lot of people don't realize or talk about", "so one of the things that we found when we were looking at the shift from the electronic to the biological in terms of wearables was that a lot of the people that we talked to many of them identified women i guess that we talked to they were saying that as scientists and researchers and designers they had they were putting different metaphors for the body", "so they were going into these giant conventions of tech people", "and one of them pointed out that most of the people around her were talking about cogs and circuits and machines that put up there and that she and her colleagues were talking about bodies and the biome and shit and private sorry did i swear private parts the things that are traditionally coated as female embodied they are bringing into the technology via their perspective that they're bringing to it", "so does that is that because they're women i don't know but it's interesting that there's a different metaphor for the body different a way of thinking of the self through technology then electronic clean dry space of like the virtual i don't have a body i'm in i'm in cyberspace kind of point of view", "there's that distinction between what i think that's the terminology it's like sparkies and squishies we all could figure out what that means right yeah", "electronic engineer versus biofabrication designer growing mushroom based leather in her lab in her kitchen", "yeah i think like a part of the reason why i find to be so interesting and looking at it through social media and through surveillance and through the technology is because that's how i found it", "and that was how i found the community was online", "if i hadn't had an instagram account i don't know if i would be a member of a crossfit gym", "what became more interesting to me was that the longer i stayed in the community the more i saw that it was diverse but beneath the surface", "so within the crossfit competitions there are different categories for adaptive athletes", "so you will actually see people who may not be able bodied but they still going to be climbing ropes and lifting bar bells", "and i thought that was incredibly interesting", "the way that it skewed again this reality of what it is to be the fittest on earth", "it doesn't always mean that you're an able bodied person", "it doesn't always mean that you look like the influencers that i would have showed you in the slides", "not everybody is straight white and cisgender but you have to really get into the community", "i find you have to kind of go through the layers of surveillance and be on the apps and join the communities and follow the hashtags until you had to really scratched that surface", "and i think that's where i find it really interesting to apply a concept like higher reality or hyper reality the convergence of online and offline and this distortion of normalization around the able body and higher technology and surveillance and social media in particular provided a really interesting gateway for that", "so this idea of the self and self knowledge and embodiment and kind of the convergence of that technology and social media is something that i have many many more questions about it myself", "maybe if i had twenty five minutes per presentation but i don't and i'll work on that for next time", "yeah i just wanted to say that we did a new liberal age with that has introduced a permanent and increasing moral panic about sexual issues", "and that's very suffocating", "so a website like chatter bait not that we need to become cyber utopians we can suspend our cyber skepticism and say there are platforms and there are venues online that can allow fully autonomous potentially empowering sexual expression despite this rising moral panic", "so that's that's how it speaks to me", "all right we're gonna open it up for qa", "who's got a question right in the center", "and speak right into the mic or the live stream will not hear you and everyone will be sad", "hi my question is for the gentleman", "do you have a sense of how sestafosta might impact the the ways in which like people who are using the internet for sex work are able to do so autonomously you have to explain that concept to me", "okay so there's there trump just signed a law that is about basically trying to regulate or to tamp down on trafficking but many sex workers are saying that it will also impact like how they can use the internet to communicate because it's it's like seeping into all of these online spaces that they're using", "and i think there's a sense that it might force these sort of more open online expressions to go underground", "sorry i interrupted too early i'm sorry", "i don't want to do it again i'm sorry", "legislation in the us bad", "did you mention that the unmentionable the unmentionable person", "i thought i heard the word", "should i answer now or are we picking up more questions no no answer", "yeah sure", "this kind of legislation can really i mean well can impede on venues that are autonomous and spontaneous and fun and do not include abuse or the level of abuses is possible but it's very limited", "so yeah this kind of of inter many interventions can yeah it can be it can be very damaging but that's what what makes me suspend my skepticism about the internet early internet promise is still here with us", "there's a conflict between that and commercial interests but also the moral panic which is wider", "why do you think that's happening science business and commercial interests", "i think that the internet and with work of independent hackers the spirit of that can still and the fact that it's global it's not restricted to us law for example", "that means that such activities can can stay and thrive", "so i'm suspending my skepticism", "i don't want to say i'm optimistic but yeah", "hi my question is for louise", "picking up on a threat on how you compare the entity between the online and offline concerning representation you've got this function of surveillance but i was really interested in the two phrases you've mentioned of regulated authenticity and discipline authenticity", "so is the implication here that real authenticity is natural unstaged unsurveillanced not managing audience", "like what is the juxtaposition of the actual authenticity if there is one i think it's particularly interesting if we're looking at influencers who are using social media accounts and this this idea of finstagrams i don't know if anybody's heard of it the fake instagram accounts or the more real instagram accounts that influencers will have which kind of show it's this idea of the backstage here you're the behind the scenes of the perfect life", "which is interesting and i think kind of oxymoronic in a way because almost all performance and almost all kind of performance of the self is regulated in a particular", "we think about things like when we walk into the room here today we're in a particular space where we know we're going to be around particular people", "we're at a panel about body politics", "so what will we wear what will we do we perform an awful lot in a way that is natural and a way that's not commodified", "so the idea of looking at this parallel reality and hyperreality of disciplined authenticity is really looking at a kind of contemporary time with neoliberalism and possibly even postfeminism", "how that can be commodified and using looking at social media in particular the data the surveillance and the algorithm and this kind of algorithmic personalization how that disciplined authenticity can be monetized and how it can be curtailed to cast an interest whether it's the cis male influencer like craig richie that i was talking about or whether it's jordan and other cisgender influencer their authenticity can be commodified and it can be monetized in a particular way but the more authentic that they are the more views that they get like i said when somebody sees them struggling at work often the views on that video are going to go up", "so i think that's interesting when you kind of add on that lens that kind of hyper real lens and look at the kind of monetization that happens behind it", "that answer your question thanks", "hi i guess my question is for you too is that maybe more generally for the panel i'm just curious were there any instances in which the kind of the social setting the pressures that you have described on people conflict with the data and if that happened in other words where someone might see data and say well the data is saying you did a great workout but i'm looking at the video and you know i've known you a long time and i've got six other people who agree with me that it's it wasn't that great", "i mean that's maybe ridiculous cause i'm just off the top of my head but i'm just wondering if there was pressure to sort of use social media and then also pressure to accept data and deny such activity", "what if those are in conflict in any of your work and how people deal with that if there is", "yeah in the this open that happened just recently a few weeks ago there is actually a particular instance where one of the elite athletes when they were they have to video record their open workouts when they are submitting their scores the standard of the hand stand pushups changed this year so it was a little bit difficult", "it was or more difficult it was measured in a particular way", "so while this particularly athletes score was incredible it pushed them really high up on leaderboard when their video submission was under review a lot of the members of the crossfit community and there was a whole reddit thread about it and it blew up that were pointing out that half of your reps aren't meeting the standard", "and crossfit had to come out with a statement and say it wasn't necessarily but this workout in particular we know that when this athlete gets to the next stage they're perfectly capable of doing the work that is asked of them", "so it really did provide this instance of the data isn't matching up with visually what we're seeing", "what became the topic of conversation for that was that it was the community that pointed that out", "it wasn't crossfit inc itself as a brand that said hang on a minute your heels aren't getting over the tape on the wall", "it was the community that said those reps aren't to standard", "what are you going to do about it but they are as of then going through to the next stage of the competition so we'll see what happens", "and i think it will be in june when the next stage of the competition is there", "and i imagine that the judging standards are going to be very much under the microscope of all of the people watching it on facebook live and all of the people looking at it on twitter", "and it kind of comes back to this idea of crossfit being a community driven sport", "but what happens when the community starts to revolt against you know the fittest people on earth then what happens the lazy people get control again and it's great", "so we can just sit down on the couch", "speaking for my friends this is super", "we have time for probably one or two more questions", "so alana this is specifically for you", "one of the juxtapositions between my hero academia and the kind of marvel representation of assistive technology is that assistive technology is confined to either people with social connections like the avengers xmen so on and so forth or people with huge amounts of money eg tony building assistive technology for roadie at the end of civil war", "whereas in my hero academia this is an egalitarian kind of representation the assistive technology", "does any of that enter into your analysis or your future work or how do you think that affects the way in which we view particular kinds of advanced assistive technologies hmm okay so for the first part of that question does it enter into my work i would love to turn this into a bigger project in terms of my actual dissertation", "i'm only a second year so i'm still finishing up coursework but my eyes are kind of on this", "and i think there's something that i need to unravel a little bit more", "and as far as your second question sorry can you can you repeat it so how does the how does the representation of advanced assistive technology as the domain of the super rich or the super privileged affect our perceptions of assistive technology i think so this is my opinion and this is something i can't quite support with theory yet but my opinion is that it kind of pigeonholes it into this like the the advanced stuff anyways it makes it seem like it's completely inaccessible just on the whole", "and my goal today was by saying like pulling out the example of curb cuts was to say yes like we look at this really advanced technology that really elaborate like you said technology is kind of accessible to only a few but we can start to pull down from that idea and pull it down into like a more accessible for lack of a better word form of technology especially for people who are young and either want to get into developing it themselves or maybe you're just starting out to use it", "and they feel like they're kind of tapping into this really niche separate thing", "i think by pigeonholing it in terms of like i said billionaire genius playboy philanthropists", "it kind of separates it from what is normal and what we think about as normal", "and that's something that we can't just count especially as we're seeing it more and more frequently", "i hope that answers your question", "we have one minute who's got a short question this is a question for you two", "about your presentation was really interesting but perhaps this is a surface level question but with all of the sensationalized media attention on neri oxman do you think this is a really positive for her creative endeavors and her colleagues and her peers work or i mean it's kind of early to tell but yeah", "so neri oxman is a biofabricating mit scientist who happens to be gorgeous and dating brad pitt perhaps we don't know they're just friends", "we actually we had a picture on the slide that was like from people or something about the two of them", "and then we were like oh maybe we should take that out", "cause we don't actually have time to talk about it", "but so now we can talk about it", "i don't know i think", "is it a good thing yeah it's a positive for this whole", "okay so the people we talk to would be like hell yeah but that's an uncritical point of view and we're trying to bring a more critical voice to it but they are very much excited about the idea that biofabrication synthetic biology and these new practices that aren't so new in the seventies but whatever are becoming more wellknown and they're we were just at a research site last night biotech without borders in brooklyn", "and they there was an interesting conversation at this lesson on how to bring biology to your business where they were saying that we need to educate hollywood better because they were afraid of genetic modification technologies and there's really nothing new with it", "so there's an interesting like cultural moment happening right now where people are afraid of gmos and the people we were in the room with last night were like they should not be afraid", "it's the way of the future", "and i think it's a mixed bag it really is", "these are people who are like sort of evangelist for crispr and things like that", "so has everybody or how many people in the room i've seen", "thank you so much for being here", "thanks for being in the conference and enjoy the rest of your day"], "name": 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{"audio_document_id": "2-18-15_City_Council_Meeting.flac", "identifier": "2-18-15_City_Council_Meeting", "text_document_id": "2-18-15_City_Council_Meeting.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [6250, 9263, 6783, 935, 833, 1157, 937, 1230, 1800, 853, 1557, 1620, 990, 1913, 5887, 4890, 3833, 1553, 3400, 4010, 7263, 4550, 7913, 5500, 5133, 3300, 6920, 7670, 2733, 12087, 1200, 7220, 12740, 5360, 4580, 4890, 3860, 2683, 9007, 833, 17360, 3920, 13170, 12240, 18180, 18240, 22340, 16190, 20990, 7140, 12970, 7110, 11100, 10120, 15750, 13323, 833, 8480, 1054, 2590, 7990, 1680, 980, 8420, 3290, 1560, 4690, 4083, 833, 4887, 1360, 7460, 1330, 7803, 1177, 833, 895, 5062, 1323, 877, 970, 833, 1217, 833, 1598, 1699, 1410, 833, 833, 7064, 7560, 14153, 4597, 5120, 5603, 6356, 11810, 7520, 1650, 2130, 890, 1320, 833, 19679, 9278, 11323, 3960, 9679, 29180, 7910, 6980, 3700, 4483, 14000, 10610, 880, 833, 2683, 3638, 833, 3413, 13430, 5043, 5000, 833, 4907, 833, 1627, 8690, 15353, 833, 833, 833, 4185, 833, 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8170, 11342, 14843, 6653, 3470, 2060, 8050, 4660, 7620, 2190, 6260, 833, 2700, 13170, 4990, 11950, 10160, 14513, 6797, 11160, 3900, 7390, 7940, 11403, 1800, 5320, 6370, 7810, 3900, 9740, 5489, 5000, 14170, 2290, 9840, 4700, 2140, 3180, 3429, 4431, 11560, 11367, 1624, 7729, 5449, 7941, 4550, 7130, 8720, 4730, 833, 1357, 833, 1667, 3363, 1239, 833, 1478, 881, 1459, 3043, 1221, 1412, 19960, 2920, 3080, 2790, 5000, 2290, 3700, 3213, 910, 3020, 1770, 8690, 15133, 7198, 4263, 15310, 840, 8570, 6244, 833, 1573, 833, 2347], "label": ["well good evening everyone and welcome to this regularly scheduled meeting of the holland city council", "this is of course ash wednesday so we welcome everyone who is tuning in via internet or cable or is here in chambers tonight", "we begin this evening's meeting as we begin all of our meetings first of all with the roll to make sure we have a quorum to conduct business", "deboer here", "trethewey here", "peters here", "birch here", "vanda vusse here", "whiteman here", "hoekstra here", "klomparens here", "mayor dykstra here", "we have a quorum mayor", "all right thank you", "and then we begin tonight's meeting after our roll call with a prayer and invocation and the pledge of allegiance to our flag", "this evening our invocation will be led by our colleague brian birch council member from the third ward", "if you're in chambers we invite you to rise and join us for both of these items", "bow your heads with me", "lord open my lips and i shall declare your praise", "today father you bring us to the beginning of lent", "we pray that in this time of salvation you will fill us with the holy spirit purify our hearts and strengthen us in love", "may we be filled and satisfied by the word which you give us", "teach us to be loving not only in great and exceptional moments but above all in the ordinary events of daily life", "may we abstain from what we do not really need and help our brothers and sisters in distress", "may we bear your wounds in our bodies for through your body we are given life", "lord we are born of ashes and to ashes we shall return", "grant o lord that we may begin this season in service to you that we may be armed with weapons of self restraint", "may that sacrifice and selfdenial help us in the darkness that surrounds us to prepare ourselves to receive your light", "we ask this in your name amen", "i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all", "thank you brian", "there are copies paper copies of this evening's agenda located in the rack in the rear of the room if you're here in chambers", "if you have an electronic device of some sort or you're at home you can find not only the agenda but also the background materials that council has reviewed in preparation for this evening's meeting by going to cityofhollandcom", "either go to the calendar page today's date or you can go to agendas and meetings and locate it there", "when you look at the agenda you'll note that there are a variety of items that have an asterisk next to them", "these are the items that are currently on our consent agenda which means that we're gonna handle them together", "one motion in one vote unless something changes", "and i'll tell you in a moment what that procedure is to get it changed", "but before i do that i would ask our deputy city clerk to read for us what is presently scheduled to be on our consent agenda", "hannah please", "item five to approve the minutes of the closed sessions held january seven and fourteen amended budget retreat session held january thirty one regular and special meetings held february seven and study session held february eleven two thousand and fifteen", "item 11a to accept and file executed oaths of office", "item 11b to accept a pa198 tax abatement application submitted by challenge manufacturing company at one thousand three hundred and forty seven washington avenue and to refer to staff for study and report", "item 11c to accept as information a letter of request submitted by roger jansen to add the name of gunnery sergeant daniel j price to the veteran's monument in centennial park", "item 14a1 to approve the praxair equipment procurement agreement in the total amount of one million four hundred and eighty six thousand six hundred and two for the wastewater treatment plan improvement project pending approval as to form by the city attorney and to authorize the mayor and deputy clerk to sign said agreement", "item 14a2 to approve a contract with burnett llc to remove residential structures located at three hundred and two and three hundred and eight east 7th street and to right of first offer with a property located at three hundred and seven east 8th street for the area of the future holland energy park", "item 14a3 to approve a contract with western land services for assistance in land services in an amount not to exceed two hundred and fifteen thousand and eighteen as part of the construction of the holland energy park natural gas pipeline pending approval as to form by the city attorney and to authorize the mayor and deputy clerk to sign said contract", "item 14a4 to approve the contract with ht engineering for engineering assistance for the building of the natural gas pipeline in the amount not to exceed seventy six thousand six hundred and ninety two and to authorize the mayor and deputy clerk to sign said contract", "item 14a5 to approve a three year service agreement with gp strategies in an annual amount of thirty eight thousand nine hundred and forty for the purchase of a computer based environmental health and safety training program to support the completion of a tactical action and to authorize the mayor and deputy clerk to sign said contract", "item 14d1 to refer claims filed against the city to the city's insurance carrier and city attorney for consideration", "item 14d2 to approve the two thousand and fifteen salary and set hours for the board of review march two thousand and fifteen meetings and to direct the deputy clerk to publish set hearing dates", "item 14e31 to accept and file the january two thousand and fifteen financials as prepared by the finance department", "item 14e32 to declare a surplus collected bicycles from the public safety police division and to authorize staff to dispose as indicated in said report", "item 14e33 to adopt a resolution to approve deficit elimination plan for the revolving cash assistance fund as presented by the finance department", "item 14e52 to accept the recommendation of the home energy task force that the first phase has been completed and to follow the next phase residential property improvement as outlined in the adopted resolution of may fourteen two thousand and fourteen", "and item 14e53 to approve a revocable license agreement with francesca's collections inc for the installation of a projecting sign on francesca's storefront at five west 8th street", "all right thank you", "aren't you glad you braved the snowstorm to listen to that right there huh and under the new state law we're gonna have to ask the deputy clerk to read that all one more time for us", "no there is no new state law", "oh to see the look on her face it was fantastic", "all right so there's the consent agenda as it stands right now our plan is to approve all of those items with one motion in one vote", "we think they're relatively routine", "you might not think so", "in fact you might have braved the temperatures and snow on this night to be here for precisely one of those items and you want us to take it individually", "and if that's the case at this time i'd invite you to step forward to the podium", "let us know what item it is", "we'll take it off the consent agenda and we'll take it in its regular place on the agenda", "so if anyone would like to remove an item from the consent agenda here's your chance to do it", "all right seeing none", "any members of council under council rules can remove one or more items from the consent agenda", "council member hoekstra please", "your honor i request that we remove item 14e52 home energy retrofit audits from consent", "all right it is so removed", "anyone else seeing none what is the pleasure of council on the amended consent agenda motion to adopt", "moved by trethewey", "support", "supported by deboer", "is there any discussion on it seeing none please call the roll", "deboer yes", "trethewey yes", "peters yes", "birch yes", "vande vusse yes", "whiteman yes", "hoekstra yes", "klomparens yes", "mayor dykstra yes", "motion passes", "all right thank you", "it's one of the nights we like because we go from the consent agenda all the way down to item twelve which is communications from the audience", "this is the opportunity for members of the audience to address council on anything that's on their mind with the exception of things that are otherwise located on the agenda", "now if you want to talk with us about one of those things you can do so when we take that item up but if you're here to talk with us about anything else here's your chance to do so all we ask is that you step forward to the podium so that we can hear what you have to say and everyone at home can hear what you have to say", "the council rules do require you to state your name and residential address for the record", "and council rules also permit up to five minutes to address the members of the city council", "so at this time i will declare the microphone open for item twelve communications from the audience", "all right seeing no one we will close that and move on down to item 14e", "yes 14e21 the item from the street department related to the long awaited much ballyhooed somewhat delayed central avenue project", "and we turn to the city manager initially and i suspect we'll hear from mr brian white our director of transportation services as well", "in fact we might just forego", "well we're gonna hear from the city manager tonight", "thank you mr mayor", "well oiled machine we are", "all right ryan please", "members of council i want to thank everyone for your patience as we've walked through several conversations upstairs about options involving how much transmission main needs to go underneath central avenue and what that might translate to in terms of district heat someday or snow melt on sidewalks above ground", "i want to also extend our appreciation to merchants and downtown community members who have cooperated and communicated with the city on this matter", "and our city engineer and our transportation director is here tonight to give you more details and ask you to seek permission to notice a public hearing", "yeah good evening mayor dykstra and council members here tonight", "the item that we have in front of you is having to do with the central avenue project and specifically the snow melt aspects of that project", "and as we've discussed in a little more detail the prior study session what we're recommending that we do here tonight is schedule a public hearing of necessity for the central avenue snow melt improvements that would be held on wednesday march 4th and then also direct the deputy clerk to go ahead and publish the notices out to the effected property owners", "the map on the screen here just shows you the preliminary assessment district", "again this is the central avenue project itself extends from 3rd to state street", "we're dealing tonight with just the snow melt aspects of that project", "and right now we're looking at that window from 3rd to 13th street", "this includes transmission improvements for the snow melt which are not going to be assessed but obviously are part and parcel to the snow melt system", "and then the portion that will be assessed is the distribution portion the actual pex tubes and what we call spaghetti in the sidewalk area", "it's a highly technical term", "yes", "only civil engineers can use that one correct yes right", "so transmission are the large mains if you will right", "correct", "and then the distribution is the radiant heat yes okay", "any questions for brian tonight as you indicated brian we did have a robust discussion upstairs which follows after a robust discussion last week at our study session on this very topic", "so i think we're in a pretty good spot to know at least what we're hoping to accomplish tonight", "one thing i will say and well first of all any questions for brian my apologies", "all right seeing none", "why don't we get a motion first of all and then we can have some discussion", "your honor", "yes council member hoekstra", "i would move that we approve the scheduling of a public hearing for the place and time indicated march 4th at seven hundred pm", "and notice the properties effected on the proposed assessment role with the omission of the properties that were proposed on central avenue between 3rd street and 5th street", "all right", "if that makes sense", "i believe so", "basically from 5th to 13th is what you are proposing to be noticed out", "that is correct", "all right we understand the motion second", "all right very good", "that's council member trethewey seconded the motion made by council member hoekstra", "all right time for discussion", "anyone care to make any this evening have any this evening", "i will only say this and that is we are not entirely sure what ultimately we suspect we will do in this area for snow melt", "we may after hearing from people want to do that entire stretch of roadway", "we may want to pare it down some but the point of doing this process tonight is to notice out this information to any effected property owner that could possibly be effected by this project", "such that if we decided to pare it down in two weeks at the public hearing those persons would have been notified", "we couldn't really expand it without giving notice to the effected property owners", "so we might be over noticing tonight but we'll find out in a couple weeks", "and certainly the property owners who will be receiving the official notification of this proposed assessment you know we'd love to hear from them in particular about what their thoughts are on the value the benefits the costs of this proposed assessment", "any discussion otherwise all right ready to vote", "we have a motion to assess or to send out the not to assess to send out the notice of the hearing for march four for the properties on central between 5th and 13th", "please call the roll", "trethewey yes", "peters yes", "birch yes", "vanda vusse yes", "whiteman yes", "hoekstra yes", "klomparens yes", "deboer yes", "mayor dykstra yes", "motion passes", "all right thank you", "then we flip the page over to 14e51", "some gifts this evening", "the city manager's office is pleased to report the following gifts", "human relations department received a fifty donation for the martin luther king day public services", "public safety fire services received a donation in the amount of two hundred and fifty from the michigan emergency management association for the multijurisdictional training symposium", "parks and recreation received for the degraaf nature center a donation in the amount of one hundred from steven and angeline hamburg for the new entry property improvements", "parks and recreation also received a five anonymous donation for the saul perez scholarship fund", "and park and recreation received for windmill island gardens a twelve thousand five hundred donation from hayworth", "it is recommended that these donations be accepted with appreciation and an expression of gratitude be forwarded to the donors", "what is the pleasure of council move we approve", "support", "all right moved by deboer supported by trethewey", "throwing us all for a loop this evening", "any discussion on these items otherwise all in favor please say aye", "aye", "oppose the same that passes thank you", "all right then the item that we removed from consent 14e52 dealing with the community energy plan", "and again we turn to our city manager mr cotton", "thank you", "this is once again a part of a pilot project that culminated began five years ago with the community energy plan and the appointment of seven citizen task forces", "our chair of the home energy retrofit task force is here tonight mr peter bogart", "and he's joined also by the individual representing dr energy savers who has partnered with schneider electric the energy service company that is providing the resources excuse me not the resources the legwork to accomplish the twenty five home pilot", "of course once one has a successful pilot the intent is to see what's next", "and tonight you will see that the group is ready for your authorization to proceed to construction the actual retrofits of the homes", "and then after that the group will be back and request your thoughts as to what to do next in the way of another pilot on bill financing perhaps or maybe going to a larger scale project", "so in your packet is information on the results", "the original plan included the possibility of saving up to fifty three of home energy which you'll see in your packet is the savings of somewhat less thirty two", "yet it's also a lower investment an average of fourteen thousand investment per home rather than the twenty eight thousand that the fifty three assumed", "so it's actually a pretty good value in relation to that", "so the reasons to do this are to enhance property values", "our assessor estimates up to five reduced peak electricity demand meet state energy efficiency targets and compete of course for the georgetown university energy prize which we hope to win", "we'll be one of fifty some communities competing for that over the next two years", "the trial program began with the audits several months ago and it was a first come first serve basis", "ninety two homes indicated they wanted to participate and paid one hundred application fees twenty five of which have now been cashed and the other ones are remaining on file should we go forward with further retrofits after this", "this is a budget that we've i won't go through the details of but we are exceeding the budget in terms of how it's spending it's costing less than we projected", "so we're more in the black than even what this budget suggests we would be", "it would suggest that we'd be at forty five thousand at the end i think we'll be closer to ninety thousand to the good when we're done with this retrofit project", "this is a chart that shows the various uses for the retrofit dollars", "and you can see where the green dots are", "virtually every home could have improved lighting plumbing smart thermostats and then somewhat less but hot water heaters and wall insulation and the like", "the bottom line is this chart out of the twenty five there were three levels of retrofits that were discussed with the homeowner and these costs were then selected", "good better best were the options", "and you can see that each one of them selected better or best", "the cost range depending on what the home needed and these are geographically dispersed", "they were also different ages of homes and also different types of construction", "and that was intentional so we could learn as much as we could from this experimental program", "so some of the retrofits range as low as five thousand with savings of five hundred yet that's a ten year payback if i do my math right", "to as high as twenty five thousand someone who wanted the very ultimate and a one thousand five hundred savings per year with a thirty five energy savings", "so that's how the table is read", "and then the last column is whether the financing is needed via the offers of semco and the board of public works and also city to facilitate paying down the interest rate to one hundred and ninety nine", "so far only six homeowners have indicated that that financing is necessary and all twenty three that have definitely committed they haven't signed yet that awaits your approval tonight but all the twenty three they had indicated an interest in committing", "there's two that haven't been haven't made their decisions yet", "have signified they want to go forward", "so once again bottom line the average is fourteen thousand per home", "the homeowner pays that", "the average savings is eight hundred and sixty five per home", "schneider electric guarantees that that's part of their contract", "it averages just about one third off their bill and virtually everyone who participated wants to continue to completion", "so tonight the action requested of council is to make a motion to authorize completion of the first twenty five homes in the pilot program as per the approved resolution establishing that this is a public purpose which was formally adopted at the may 14th two thousand and fourteen city council meeting", "thank you ryan", "any questions for staff all right then without the questions oh we do have a question council member peters please", "mike raised the question about my participation in this program and the vote i'm about to take and if there's any reason for any kind of recusement", "turn to the city attorney on that question", "yeah i think it would be appropriate for you to recuse yourself from voting on the project on the motion tonight", "so i would like to ask to recuse myself from it as well", "all right we have a request from our colleague from the second ward", "i'll make that motion anytime we can get rid of peters", "and i'll support it", "was that a motion to recuse or to unseat all right moved by whiteman supported by trethewey", "all in favor please say aye", "aye", "oppose the same", "all right jay you're excused from this particular vote but you may not go home", "mr mayor i think for the record we just want people to know that we actually sought out council members who might want this for the purpose of learning how it works", "and that way you can communicate better to your constituents who might be interested in future opportunities", "so this we actually approached all of you to participate", "it was nothing extraordinary in that respect", "except for the one selected jay is extraordinary", "so all right we do not yet have a motion but we should get one", "excuse me mr mayor", "yes", "councilman peters should actually step down and sorry hit the road jack", "okay motion please", "move to approve", "support", "moved by hoekstra and supported by trethewey", "discussion", "yes council member trethewey", "i said it upstairs and i'm gonna say it again it's extremely gratifying extremely pleasing to see the amount of participation that we've had", "of the initial twenty five twenty three so far", "and i really don't have any doubt that we're gonna have one hundred on this one", "and i hope this represents what's going forward throughout the rest of the city", "put a lot of time energy energy pardon the pun into this", "easy for me to say", "but i think it's a great step forward for holland and i hope this momentum keeps going", "anyone else council member klomparens please", "kudos", "just a thank you for all the people that have been involved in this over the last x number of years", "there's just been a lot of people who've done a lot of work kept pushing it forward", "and again thank you for these twenty three to twenty five bpw the state doing different things to make this work", "this is an awesome event and i'm hoping that we will continue and hope this really works well", "anyone else councilman deboer please it is exciting", "they were given good better or best choices and everybody picked either the better or best and twelve of them went for the very best they could do", "so and having so many that are already financing it themselves", "it's a testament to this community and how people are careful with their money and want to invest it in places that'll have long return", "all right", "i'll echo everything that's been said", "i'll also note that through the laborious efforts of people within this building and the bpw with the incredible assistance of now former representative hopman we got this legislation changed in michigan so that when we go to scale on this assuming the pilot works well i think we'll have a better mechanism to do so because of some legislation that would allow these items to be placed on a utility bill and financed through that means", "so it wasn't hard i mean it wasn't easy but as far as getting legislation passed i think there've been harder rows to hoe because i think the more we talked about it with people in lansing whether it was the governor's office who was on board early members of both sides of the aisle in lansing working with joe's help the more people heard about it the more it made sense to them", "whether they came at it from purely the environmental side of the ledger or whether they came at it from the cost saving and money saving side of the ledger there was a reason for everyone to buy into it", "and so we're looking forward to having the opportunity to leverage that new piece of legislation that we helped get passed", "please call the roll", "birch yes", "vande vusse yes", "whiteman yes", "hoekstra yes", "klomparens yes", "deboer yes", "trethewey yes", "mayor dykstra yes", "motion passes", "all right thank you", "takes us then to communications from the city manager tonight ryan we turn to you", "i'm sorry hold on one second please mr city manager", "jay you may sit down", "no you may return", "it's automatic actually", "you know now we're down with the item we just recused you from that one so", "i'm getting back in", "i move we welcome jay back in", "and it's only like seven hundred and thirty", "i mean imagine if this was like a one thousand meeting how punchy he'd be tonight", "mr city manager communications from you this evening", "i have two items one of which will take the document camera assistance", "this i'll explain in just a second", "the first thing is it is time again to shovel fire hydrants", "every day it seems we get more inches of snow so it doesn't take long to have them covered up", "i want to thank our transportation crews who are once again getting very used i hope getting used to getting up early and working hard and keeping the roads in good shape", "what you see on your screen is the announcement of the funding project the fundraising project for the holland noon rotary club which is intended to benefit the windmill island garden pathway that the city council has worked on via the strategic plan the business plan the grants holland charter township has been part of these grants and conversations", "and it assumes these grants assumed fifty thousand of private sources funding through the rotary club's pledge", "so the rotary club indeed has kicked this project off and it's to fund ten benches two nodes and a variety of other associated amenities to the island", "and this is the type of thing and this is how it will look like when it's done with the symbol in the bench and the actual recognition for the contributor i guess it's not gonna work that way just below the rotary symbol", "so so far these are ah good point i can simply do this", "there's the recognition of the donor", "so these are going quite fast", "and i learned today that perhaps they may have more than ten donors that will be funding the ten benches in which case that's a good problem to have", "we'll see if they can help us with the universal access kayak launch or something else", "so all of that is moving forward and i wanted to let you know about it and make sure that you're comfortable with the way this would look", "andy kenyan assisted with the design", "it would be a recycled plastic products so it would not take any maintenance thereafter", "thank you", "all right thank you ryan appreciate that", "communications from me this evening a few things the usual things first of all cityofhollandcom we continue to wait with bated breath for the refresh of that website and it's coming we promise", "we keep seeing bits and pieces of what it might look like and it will be smashingly good", "and hopefully easier to not just look better but it'll hopefully be easier to find information as well because we try to put as much information as we can onto the website so that you can find that information wherever whenever you are", "we love to have you show up at city hall the parks and recreation department love to have you show up at their facilities transportation the same way police department the same way fire stations et cetera et cetera", "but we know that there are times when perhaps you just can't make it into the city hall or city building during normal business hours or you're out of town or whatever it is and you can go ahead and find lots of things on the website", "so we invite you to do that at cityofhollandcom including contact information for all the members of council", "it is a ways out yet but a good thing to put on the calendar two things happening right around the same time which are neighborly events", "they're happening the two events are neighboring kinds of properties", "the first is that on saturday april eighteen is the opening of windmill island gardens for the season", "and it is the 50th anniversary of the very close to the actual day the 50th anniversary of the opening of the windmill", "and there are a bunch of events being planned including a fun run put on by our youth council holland youth advisory council there we go", "and some other events happening", "so it's 50th anniversary of having that structure and image in our community", "and we look forward to a good day of celebration as we begin its 50th season here", "then a few days later on tuesday april twenty one one hundred and thirty in the afternoon we have the groundbreaking of the new holland energy park", "and it will be a really great you know we've talked a lot about it", "i think people have seen some of the early stage progress of what's happening with you know the properties being cleared and the site being cleared and being ready for construction of this new power plant", "well the shovels go in the ground on the 21st of april one hundred and thirty in the afternoon", "it is going to be very it's gonna be a lot of fun", "and it's gonna be great to see this project go up and really the eastern edge of the entrance to our downtown transformed in ways that i don't think we can fully appreciate yet even though we've spent a lot of time looking at you know renderings and plans and it'll be great", "and dave coster is still in chambers tonight", "and you know dave we know you've worked lots and lots and lots and lots of hours on this project and it'll be a great thing to really see some momentum happening", "and i think in the next few months people will be surprised at how quickly the plant will be coming together", "so mark that on your calendar as well", "it'll be an event that i don't think people in this community will want to miss", "it'd be one of those kind of once in a lifetime opportunities", "that's it for me aside from a few appointments and let's deal with those right now", "first of all i would like to appoint ask you to appoint alex calder to the police community relations commission for an uncompleted term which would expire on december thirty one of this year", "and then also mika stillwell as a student representative on the police community relations commission for the remainder of this two hundred and one thousand four hundred and fifteen school year with that term expiring june thirty two thousand and fifteen", "and then a few reappointments", "first of all scott trager the brownfield redevelopment board for a three year term which would expire january thirty two thousand and eighteen", "dale winegarden to the building authority for a five year term which would expire december thirty two thousand and nineteen", "matt messer to the board of review for a one year term sentence term to expire january thirty one two thousand and sixteen", "joel dye to the board of review for another one year term january thirty one two thousand and sixteen", "and ann saliers to the sustainability committee for another two year term which would expire on march thirty one two thousand and seventeen", "and last but not least reappoint mark vanderfluke to the sustainability committee as well for another two year term which would expire march thirty one two thousand and seventeen", "i place those before you and hope that you would consider them favorably", "move we approve", "moved by the mayor pro tem", "support", "supported by trethewey", "mr calder you want to make any last minute pitches no all right", "all in favor please say aye", "aye", "opposed the same", "all right that passes", "thank you", "okay communications from members of council tonight", "council member trethewey please", "just one brief one", "a plea for and i'm sure everybody that's watching this is already doing it but today just brought to light again with the weather that we've been having headlights on vehicles are extremely necessary specifically on white cars but everybody", "with the white out conditions we've had the snow", "and if you think you've got automatic headlights that's fantastic", "but just remember your tail lights don't come on", "so just courtesy safety turn the headlights on", "it's gonna make our drives a whole lot safer", "you may be able to see them but they may not be able to see you", "so just weather like this please turn the headlights on", "thank you mike", "anyone else council communications tonight", "councilman deboer please", "shoveling out your fire hydrant is also a really good idea so that they can access the water and do what they need to do", "and we're really grateful for all the people that work so hard at getting up at two in the morning to make sure those roads are so nice for us to drive on and all the different people that are working so hard to make this such a wonderful community", "we really want to thank all the fire people all the public safety people the bpw people and everybody", "so thank you for making this a wonderful place to live even in the winter", "all right anyone else motions resolutions by members of council tonight seeing none and absent any last minute shenanigans by the city attorney requiring us to go into a closed session we have but one thing left to do and that of course is to adjourn", "so moved", "moved by trethewey and supported by the effervescent council member jay peters of holland's second ward", "any discussion on that or discussions on jay seeing none all in favor please say aye", "aye", "opposed the same", "we stand adjourned", "goodnight and thank you everyone"], "name": 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connections at farmers market in holland", "we're really glad to have a couple friends here with us tara and rob and their children who have come out to the farmers market", "so we're just gonna talk to them a little bit about what that experience is like", "how did you guys happen to find out about holland's farmers market well we visit this area of michigan about once a summer and we always like to make a stop here at the holland farmers market", "awesome so you're here from where cincinnati", "cincinnati cool", "so you guys came down to farmers market too yep", "what are these dinosaurs with plants in them whoa", "they got to make those down there at the other end with all the kid activities", "oh cool", "you know i've never seen cacti growing out of a dinosaur", "that is very appropriate cause it's got spikes on it doesn't it absolutely", "yeah do you get the same dinosaurs no so you'll know exactly whose is whose", "right that's important", "the same dinosaurs", "you got oh okay different", "different plants too", "perfect", "that is a lot of fun", "so what you come down to get some fresh produce right", "so we're staying in for a bit of a week and we always like to make a stop down and buy some fresh local produce and enjoy that while we're here", "wow so you got the schedule down pat then wednesdays and saturdays is when you wanna show up", "we usually come on wednesday", "are you in a trailer or a tent or a house a house", "okay you're renting a house yes", "fun so you're doing the beach sometimes beach and cooking at home and enjoying that", "and so yeah we like to stop here", "yeah well we really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us a little bit", "we are here with scott from captain chubs fresh smoked fish at a farmers market", "so how does that work how long have you been here well this is our fourth season in holland at the market", "wow so where do these fish come from these fish the white fish came from lake huron and the sockeye salmon we had flown in fresh from alaska", "we process all the fish and do all the smoking and then just package it and sell it at the farmers markets", "okay so all the processing happens here but the fish could come from all over the place so they're flown in fresh then right right we'll go pick em up fresh in michigan", "yeah so some of it comes from michigan lake michigan no this year not from lake michigan", "lake superior and lake huron", "okay so you have your own crew of people fishing somewhere yes we have friends that commercial fishermen we buy direct from those guys and then do the smoking", "okay do you get repeat customers if you've been here for four years every week", "yeah every week", "every week yeah", "so everybody gets their weekly fish deal with you", "yeah they come back week after week", "and you help them with how to prepare or are they pretty much it's fully cooked ready to eat smoked fish is", "oh it is i didn't even know that", "yeah most people eat it cold", "so you don't have to smell up your house or anything", "yeah it's nice during the summer you can put it on a tossed salad and keep it cool in the kitchen", "wow that is easy", "and then you just put it in refrigerator right yep needs to stay refrigerated", "so you're all set up here with electricity and this is all", "all refrigerated", "kept exactly at the temperature it needs to be", "thirty eight or below", "wow so what got you into the smoked fish business well my family was commercial fishermen out of holland for thirty years so i grew up in that industry and started smoking fish as a boy", "started smoking fish as a boy that's an interesting phrase", "yeah", "that's great so you are a hollander i'm a hollander", "born and bred", "born and raised in holland on 147th avenue", "oh okay", "well great and so you still live around here south of hamilton now", "oh okay", "and then come in", "well that's great that we can have all kinds of things", "sugar shacks and fudge and smoked fish here", "yep we've got it all in holland", "awesome well great to meet you captain chubs", "all right thank you", "we're here with nusca who's come to the farmers market", "now you live in holland right and you're out here on this gorgeous wednesday and obviously you bought some wonderful sunflowers", "yeah they're just beautiful one bouquet is for me and the other one is for my mom so", "oh your mom is visiting yeah she's visiting from peru from south america", "wow how special is that so you wanted to bring her down to farmers market yeah we come on wednesdays and then i have three little nieces so they come in and do some activities and we have a fun time here", "so it's kind of a regular family activity to be down and something for the children and something", "yeah we get local produce like corn and fruits", "and the flowers are just wonderful", "yeah do you find things are a little fresher here than the stores yes and just the ambiance is really friendly and just really nice to have a local kind of difference in the community so", "we kind of have that hometown feeling down here right and the openair market that's kind of special", "yeah that's really cool", "it's probably what your mom is used to in peru right yeah we have our markets and we get fresh things every day", "and so it's just kind of a fun thing for us to come in and do that again", "yeah", "do you like talking to the farmers is that a helpful thing to discuss the kinds of produce they're selling and how you can cook it or whatever you kind of come with your own program you don't need that too much no it's just kind of cool to see some different", "for example there's different kinds of pastas or different kinds of things like granola and things that are just kind of uncommon when you go to the normal local store", "so it's just kind of nice", "bigger variety and unusual things maybe huh well wonderful", "i'm so glad you could be here today and so glad we could connect", "so nusca thank you for talking", "we're glad that we could talk with you a little bit here joyce", "we've noticed your unusual plants and there are all kinds of plants and flowers that they're selling here at the market", "but yours look a little different than the ones that we usually see growing and we're kind of wondering how do you get them to look like this they're kind of like poodle plants or something", "yeah it's topiary", "it's the art of topiary and i start everything from cuttings", "and when the plant is the height you want it then you cut the top out and strip off all the bottom leaves and then slowly trim until you get a plant that looks like this", "looks like a little round one", "and it takes years sometimes", "like this myrtle is probably three years old", "oh wow", "so it takes a long time to get a topiary and a lot of hand labor but they make good indoor houseplants and it's kind of like plant art", "and then they just kind of stay that height they stay that height and if like to give it a little trim yourself you can or just", "so this guy's a little more casual than those guys", "yeah", "and this guy has a bottom poof and a top poof", "yes", "so it's different types of designs", "different designs", "whatever people might like", "yeah whenever i'm trimming it whatever i think the plant lends itself to that's what i make out of it", "and then you put them in appropriate pots", "it looks like they're kind of an artistic choices here for the pots", "i try to get interesting pots and that's the fun part putting the plant with the pot", "this is a lavender and i found a pot that's kind of the same color", "oh yeah i bet that smells good too", "it does and it blooms", "like a purple", "there's not a lot of plants that lend themselves to be made into topiaries but i try", "yeah how long have you been doing this working these i've been coming to this market for sixteen years", "oh really so i've been doing this a long time", "and i love this market because the people are so nice and they're willing to try new things which is what i'm always trying to provide is something new", "yeah well you're kind of an artist i think", "definitely an artist and a horticulturalist", "you have to understand how to keep things alive because all these plants look green or whatever color they're supposed to be", "just simple watering", "so are you a farmer do you have a farm i have a greenhouse in hartford which is an hour south of here", "and i'm a third generation greenhouse grower", "my father was a dutch immigrant", "oh really and so i'm third generation and i found my niche and", "how cool", "now these things don't look like they grow", "no that's jewelry", "do you make jewelry also i do i have a small car so i thought what can i bring that doesn't take up a lot of space that's why i make jewelry", "what an entrepreneur you are", "having all new things", "i notice this this is really a unique piece with that having a bad hair day there that's cool", "i think there should be one of those in every salon", "yeah that is really cool", "so it's just the vine that you got to draw", "it's a mess yeah", "and you have one here too", "yeah this is anthony and cleopatra", "oh i didn't see the pair", "okay perfect", "yeah look at that", "but these you know you can just get the plant in the pot take it home set it down you're done", "you don't have to think oh what am i going to plant this in yeah and so all you have to do then would be water that and it would kind of stay the same and maybe trim it up a little if it starts if you want to have it real tight", "yes", "you know like those balls over here probably require a little more maintenance huh they do but that's the fun part", "and it's kind of relaxing and", "yeah it's kind of like bonsai only this type of plant instead of", "instead of the trees", "trees yeah", "yeah well that is very fascinating", "even flowering things", "that is such a cute what is that that's a mexican heather which is an annual but i've trained it into a topiary and i braided the stem so it's got a little design in the stem too", "oh my goodness you braided the stem i've never seen that", "yeah to make a full little head", "yeah and that's an annual that's an annual", "so then you keep it inside the rest of the i would put that outside in a pretty spot where you eat or where you see it and then in the fall", "take it in and then it's gone", "well you know you get sick of stuff", "yeah right find a new topiary next year", "yeah or find winter topiaries", "talk to joyce", "perfect", "well this is so interesting and so unusual and we're just really glad that you've been here for sixteen years coming up with amazing ideas", "how fun is that it's so artistic and fresh in every way", "so thank you joyce appreciate you taking time", "well thank you", "we are here with dan and mary who have stopped into farmers market", "now you guys are visiting you said right that's correct", "so you're at the state park camping yes", "awesome", "and so how'd you find out about the market well we've known about it for you know we've been back in holland different times over the years and we knew the market was on wednesdays and saturdays and decided to take a bike ride from the state park on this beautiful day and buy a few things for camping", "is that the american dream or what you know yeah that's awesome", "you path the other way you can't go wrong", "yeah i know great bike paths", "so do you like talking to farmers and getting this kind of fresh stuff is that what kind of brings you and the ambiance oh everybody's so friendly", "we just bought some beans and tomatoes and yeah all the farmers are friendly and just seem like they love what they do", "fresh picked this morning many times", "yeah so that's really great", "you used to live in holland you said yep born and raised in holland", "we moved out of the area about fifteen years ago and we're trying to come back", "awesome we'd love to have you back", "we'd love to be back", "you can't beat the lake shore", "we make miss lake michigan and the beach", "oh i know it gets in your system doesn't it yes it does", "to have lakes and farmers and fresh produce and downtown", "it's such a winning combination", "yeah yeah it's beautiful", "beautiful area", "well we're so happy that we can take a second to talk and that you can enjoy being back here and we sure hope it works out for you to come back permanently", "all right", "so thanks dan and mary", "well here we are on this gorgeous day at farmers market and i understand it was quite a commute for you to get here", "where are you from we come at holland", "in the province of zeeland", "i'm from holland from the province of zeeland", "so like the real holland yes yes", "like over the ocean holland", "yes over the ocean", "six thousand kilometers", "you must think the vegetables are really fresh here", "it is all the fruit", "oh good", "everything is good", "that's great", "the best part of america", "you have farmers markets in the netherlands too", "perfect and you are the farmer the market master yes", "from the netherlands", "from the netherlands", "how awesome is that there are in the netherlands", "there are a thousand various farmers markets throughout the netherlands", "wow", "well organized", "so that is a really big business in the netherlands as well", "and they love it like we love it here huh all of this perfect", "yeah you had an interesting job you did this past year", "we've been all talking about the royals in the netherlands but there were royals the new coming and the new coming in the", "the 30th of april he was installed", "the queen beatrix said farewell", "and on that day april thirty king willemalexander and his wife queen maxima became the new rulers of the netherlands and the royal family", "after that they visited every province", "we have thirteen provinces", "and every day they visited two provinces", "wow", "i represent the province of zeeland", "and from the mayor of middelburg i was asked to participate", "to welcome the king and the queen in the city of middelburg of the province of zeeland", "so you were the town crier for their welcome of the new king and queen of the netherlands", "how did that feel and i made a poem in honor of the king and the queen", "with some important points about the city of middelburg", "and i put that all in this cry", "you don't just take a prefab cry do you you have to write a whole thing that fits the occasion", "each time you wrote and it's all on its little card", "well that is amazing", "now he is going to do that cry as a town crier", "yes", "yes okay here we go", "yay yay", "yay yay", "welcome in holland michigan the cry of the king of the queen of holland", "farmers cities and all the other people", "and spread the word", "all you citizens of zeeland", "speaking in foreign language listen to me", "don't keep walking stand still a minute", "because what i'm gonna tell you", "and i'm gonna exclaim this proclaim this in holland michigan as well", "i welcome you all to middelburg", "because the king and queen are here", "they are visiting us in middelburg", "and it is the capital of the province of zeeland", "and that is middelburg", "middelburg with more than one thousand two hundred official monuments as buildings speaking in foreign language and when you walk around through the city of middelburg you'll automatically fall in love with middelburg", "middelburg with more stores and outlets than you can ever see you can get everything for whatever price you want but we have cheap buns for you too middelburg a city where you want to live a city where you want to enjoy life and a city that must be yours mine", "but you can also teach the children a lot right here in middelburg from the elementary grade all the way up to the university level university of middelburg is also well known around the area", "in other words middelburg is tops", "and now with pride i will say", "hurray hurray hurray for the king and the queen", "and a hearty welcome let's try that again thank you very much", "no problem okay this has just been a great day out at the holland farmers market this wednesday", "and now we get a look a little behind the scenes to see how all this wonderful produce gets here and what kind of work is involved in producing all this fresh stuff to eat", "so we're gonna go visit visser farms and get the behindthescenes look from the farmer themselves", "so come on down with us well here we are at cindy visser's visser farms and we're right on the scenes of the real thing here", "so this is pretty exciting and i've been to the farmers market over and over again but i have never been out here to your farm", "well i'm so glad you're here and i'm glad you're all able to see where i live and what we do", "this is awesome", "i've noticed one thousand nine hundred and two was on this wagon visser farms", "is that when people came here yes phil's greatgrandparents moved in one thousand nine hundred and two and they bought our farm in jenison michigan and we still farm that farm yet today", "oh wow", "that is cool", "and so you have gone through quite a few transformations since then i bet", "yes a lot", "in one thousand nine hundred and seventy phil's folks moved here to borculo because the boys wanted animals and to farm some animals and where they lived in jenison turned out where our farm is was just you know a vacant muck field turned into across the road from jenison public high school", "oh wow", "so that very much changed the environment from being wide open fields to a huge high school", "complex yeah right", "and so his parents really wanted to go back into a more rural area and so they moved to borculo and came to our church and became part of our family and both their sons married girls from here and their son married or their daughter married a guy from here", "oh cool", "so then you settled here with your husband that you met at church too yes we did", "good ole church", "yep and it's been great", "and we've actually lived on the farm here since one thousand nine hundred and ninety", "at that point we were married with three children and now we're almost grandparents", "whoa", "yeah so a lot has changed", "the farm has been good for productivity", "how many children do you have we have seven kids", "six of them are boys and one is a girl and they all help on the farm", "the daughter is married and lives in kalamazoo and she's a nurse", "so she just comes on saturdays to help at the market", "and one son is a machine technologist", "and so he works all week and then runs our market in rockford michigan", "we're there on saturdays alone and he does that one", "and he's done that since he was sixteen", "wow", "so for the last ten years he's done that", "and we've been at holland farmers market since one thousand nine hundred and eighty one", "our original markets were when phil's dad came home from the army and he started going to fulton street and they just renovated that market last summer", "it was brand new last summer", "and so case went with his grandpa from when he was like six years old grew up with it and he's there four days a week", "so it's really exciting how things change but we're thrilled to death to be part of holland's landscape", "we sponsor the chef series as well as when we do the salsa showdown", "we sponsor that and the carve which is a vegetable carving contest", "this huge thing", "that's amazing", "that's a national or nationwide thing", "and people come from all over", "these are culinary students and artists that are just phenomenal and they can turn a squash into something quite amazing", "i know you think oh this is a cute little art and craft kind of competition but oh no", "oh no", "they are real professional level almost right yes they are very very serious about it and they're but it's been fun to watch how it changed through the years", "and it's been really good", "and like the salsa showdown what a riot", "you know", "very popular", "seriously hot hot hot i saw a whole line of tomatoes there yesterday", "and then i'm sure there's plenty for that salsa", "yes exactly", "every year you guys figure out what you're gonna grow and how much of it that you're gonna grow", "exactly", "and then you have to figure out what you're gonna sell and how things", "there must be a lot of business behind very much so", "we start with all maps of our farm and we have forty three plots of different types of things grow in different areas", "and so that let's just say plot number one what happens is that plot gets a soil sample taken out of it", "we inform our chemist what we're gonna be growing in that plot", "and he takes the soil combines it with what we're growing and determines the exact perfect fertilizer to make that plant grow the best and grow the best fruit and vegetable", "no kidding", "yeah there's a lot of science in it", "and like what's in plot one maybe is tomatoes this year but it couldn't have been tomatoes for three years", "you can't have tomatoes on the same spot or they get funny they get things wrong with it", "doesn't grow right", "so that's a highly rotatable crop", "so the tomatoes that are in plot one will probably be in plot six next year okay but then you also have to look at it like how's the ground is it low is it high if we get a lot of rain how would it take that how would it take it if we had no rain and drought so there's a lot of thinking going into each situation and we're into sustainable farming", "our goal our greatgrandparents goal was making it so their land would be great for us and for our kids", "wow", "okay and so our goal also is making it great for our greatgrandkids", "it's not just about us it's about the future of this world and making so that people in holland and grand rapids area can have great food to eat that's healthy and safe very safe", "yeah no we're just on the news about this cyclospora virus that's coming in on fruits and vegetables", "but one of the things they said was if you go to a local farmers market you wouldn't have to worry about that", "exactly because you know exactly where it was grown and that that is not an issue in this place", "we're very blessed", "in holland there's a lot of fruits and a lot of vegetables especially this year with the great winter season cycle we had it was fantastic", "not a lot of freezeouts on the blossoms so we got great fruits and vegetables coming and it's great", "and you can freeze them and can them so that you can eat local foods three hundred and sixty five", "it's a great way", "i like zucchini in twocup packages so i can make zucchini bread or cake", "super easy doesn't take up much room in your freezer", "people also take peppers and strip em or chop em", "you can use that pepper inside a barbecue chili not so great for like raw eating", "you know it wouldn't hold up real nice", "part of a recipe", "but inside of something lasagna you know all the things", "anybody price a pepper in the winter", "peppers are fifty cents five for two", "i mean it's virtually a free food", "and if you could freeze a whole ziploc bag full up and in the winter just take out the cup or half cup you need what a great way to eat local and virtually free", "yeah reasonable prices yeah", "i was just in detroit on tuesday and they had big seeded watermelons and they were ten each", "and then i was at holland's farmers market yesterday and the same thing was six", "exactly and our market is set up to be ninety growers and ten not", "and there's one vendor that only one vendor that qualifies for that status at this point and it's the guy that stands next to us at hoffer farms", "and he buys in the watermelons and the musk melons", "and his mom is a bolthouse", "so some of the things he has on his stall are homegrown but you know the watermelons and musk melon", "are hard to grow here", "you can't get that in may or in june", "and like last year when we had no apples and very little peaches and stuff like that he filled that void for us", "we used to have another man that brought bananas and so forth and he was in that section of the two you know ten of the market that could be buyers", "but we're thrilled to death to be part of a ninety where you know of the people for the people that only want to eat local michigan foods", "we also do a csa and that's community supported agriculture", "it's a way you can prebuy and then through that we do a lot of events here on the farm", "coming up on august eight we're going to have a youpick green bean day that you can come and pick green beans", "we'll do this horse and wagon ride to the field with the kids we'll have drinks and stuff like that for em", "and so it's really fun for kids to feel the part of a farm they can see what's going on", "and on the wagon ride you see where the squash is being built you know being grown and the potatoes and all the things that we have that's being grown", "that they've never seen otherwise", "yeah they don't know how it grows", "they think it comes from meijers", "comes from meijers you know", "and so we love having we love having school groups come and we've had special needs groups come and seniors groups come too as well", "and even the seniors who have grown gardens their whole life just love to see it cause they miss it", "you know they don't get to do it anymore", "yeah well it's such a bright clean farm", "we love living here", "we've enjoyed it very much", "my inlaws live right next door and it's just a very family family thing for us", "yeah now you probably when you're working at the market people kind of come up and make a conversation besides looking over what's available and they probably ask you a lot of questions cause they actually have a real farmer who really does cook and does really use this", "exactly", "these fruits and vegetables", "and so what kind of questions do people ask you well they want to know how fresh it is how long it's gonna last what's the best way to keep it", "okay", "again how to freeze it how to can it how long to blanch it if there's better ways to do it", "many parts of the country are becoming foodies which means they eat home ninety nine of the time", "and they really are getting into how to cook things the absolute most tasty most best way", "western michigan's a little slow in that", "we have a lot of people that love to eat out but i'm sure that we will catch up with other places where eating home is the way to go", "like a lot of grilling and a lot of you know like even asparagus through the last few years grilling asparagus is phenomenal", "five years ago no one ever heard of asparagus on the grill and it tastes to the top the best", "do you put something on that you drizzle with olive oil and just roll it on the grill", "you can also do it on a pan in your oven real high heat and then sprinkle parmesan cheese on top of it", "ooh", "at the end the last few minutes", "also excellent but asparagus is done so but there's all kinds of other things that are excellent to eat this time of year", "beans", "sweet corn was the first for us yesterday", "so everybody loves fresh sweet corn people gobblin that up", "yeah that's", "yeah yeah", "so how do you do your produce how do you pick it we have a crew", "we also help but i mean we have a crew that picks certain days", "we pick certain things and we have a spreadsheet that tells us how much we need for saturday's market", "we go to six markets and each item we grow we write how many each person wants and then the point is to go pick that need", "sometimes we have more than enough ready and available and sometimes we're short and we have to scramble", "but that's kind of how we come up with a way to do this because you have to have a plan", "also when we were talking about how much to plant you also have to think about how much do you need", "yeah how many are people gonna buy yep exactly", "or the kinds of things they buy might kind of change too", "exactly", "used to be straight yellow sweet corn", "now it's the bicolored", "that had to change with how life changes", "and some people just love trying new things some people just want the standard oldfashioned way", "you know", "something they've always liked", "right yes", "exactly", "most people like trying something they never tried before in this day and age", "what would you say is your most popular item the thing we grow the most is potatoes and we grow a variety we grow six or seven varieties", "we grow a russet which is like a baking potato a blue potato which is blue all the way through", "really so that's quite fun different", "i've never heard or seen that", "yeah it's totally blue", "we raise a couple reds and superior white", "we raise yukon gold", "and then one of our absolute favorites is called german butterball and it's a small potato and oh do people just love them and they just eat them up", "they're just delicious", "they're a kind of a buttery tasting potato and they're just plain delicious", "but we you know we grow lettuce and the beans and the carrots and the radishes", "a lot of people really resonate to our radish pile it's tall it's red you know it's very becoming", "that's what i noticed yesterday too is the color", "there's nothing like the natural color in real fruits and vegetables and greens", "god created em really awesome", "you know or vibrant", "and pickles that's something people are doing more of", "for a while that was kind of a done thing", "bread and butter pickles are very very easy", "some people make sun pickles they stick them in a jar right by a window or outdoors", "you know so there's easy and that's a benefit of going to the market", "you say how do you make this and quite often farmers will have recipes out in front", "and like if you join our facebook page then there's recipes on there all the time", "people share recipes and we put recipes on", "we have bloggers that are on that are foodies that always just exchange ideas", "yes exactly", "and they have their own cooking show and we're part of", "we have a lady that lives like arizona and she comes and she does a food show in arizona but she has a home here on lake mac", "and so she talks in her food show all the time about holland farmers market which is awesome", "yeah you know you don't realize how small i mean if you go to market and you would just sit and listen to the people where they're from and the different dialects they speak", "rarely is there a day that there's not someone from very very far away", "they're there for the joy of the market", "yeah right i mean we were there yesterday and all the interviews we had were amazing from other countries and other cities and exactly", "i had one woman whose granddaughter played on the playground at windmill island gardens had kids from four different countries playing with her one saturday", "isn't that amazing it's so good and holland touches a lot of lives", "in downtown holland when the market started in about one thousand nine hundred and seventy nine was a little leery of us", "they were afraid we were gonna take away business", "and if you talk to any of them people that own businesses down the 8th street it's fantastic", "absolutely it puts holland on the map now", "they were afraid in the beginning the money wouldn't spread thick enough forever", "you know it'd be too hard for them to make a go and us", "and what they learnt is on wednesdays and saturdays they were busier and it's been a", "exactly and it worked right on into the whole nation", "sure", "to be a environmentally conscious and organic and all that good stuff", "yeah to be a hot city you have to have a farmers market", "and so holland's done wonderful innovative things", "they've had great people that worked with the city with our market master and with us vendors to really do a good job", "i bet the produce at the market is a little younger than the produce in the store", "would you say that exactly that's a very true statement", "it's only gotta be shipped from borculo to town or wherever our vendors are from", "whereas if you're getting lettuce from california it is taken a long time to get to our grocery store", "yeah so how hard is it for you to pace your crops with the season i mean you're not only working here like six seven days a week keeping everything growing and watered and fertilized and harvested but then you also have to be selling it at different farmers markets all the time and that's a lot", "that's where it helped we have seven kids", "yeah there you go", "everybody has their own responsibility and that's made a huge difference and it helped our farm that we can go six places on a saturday but it is a", "well like and phil plants beans every week so that you get every time you come to market you get a brand new patch of beans that you're eating", "oh wow", "most people think that we plant one patch of beans and we keep picking em til they're dead", "cause we had a lot of people yesterday like my bean plants aren't looking very good no more", "and it's like well you gotta keep planting em", "but that's not how it works in your head", "and most people plant their garden as soon as it's safe to plant and that's it", "that's it", "you get what you get", "but for us we can't do that", "we have to keep it going so we have fresh stuff all the time", "wow i am sure", "i don't know", "i would've had no idea that there was that much chemical analysis to every single field every single year", "exactly", "and rotation of crops", "i'd heard of that before but i didn't know you know it was so", "it all started with the cotton right in the south and they wore out their fields and so george washington carver had to come up with other products to use peanuts for to rotate crops so that they could keep using the fields for cotton and rotating you know and so principle's important", "it is", "and when we talk about sustainable farming we mean it", "we want this for our kids and feeding our land like you feed your body healthfully makes you last", "right", "you know it makes you grow better makes your children grow better", "eating better fruits and vegetables is the key to growing healthy children", "now i heard about bees that it's important for yield of crops is that true totally and like a pickle", "okay we'll use a pickle as an example", "incredibly important to have bees", "a pickle gets a flower and the bees pollinate that flower", "if you do not have bees the pickle will be fat on this end and go into a nub on this end", "oh really see and so when you see pickles that are symmetrical all the right shape that was a wellpollinated plant", "same thing with like squashes", "and we need the bees for strawberries because they have a blossom", "well this has been a great conversation and we've learned a lot about the backstory of all of this but we would like to see it too", "so let's all get on board and see the farm okay cindy sounds great let's do it these are beans and green and yellow", "this patch on our left they just got done picking", "and we're picking in the right side right now", "and you can tell these are large beans that would not be soft and tender but these are just nice and soft and these obviously have been picked", "our pickers are ahead of us", "here we are right at the action", "we're actually getting the beans and they're gonna go to market right exactly and these are just gorgeous beautiful thin beans", "they're beautiful oh delicious i'm sure", "and these guys are all picking", "and we're picking green beans right now and we'll move into yellow a little bit later this afternoon", "we just done with a patch right behind the guys that are taking the picture", "and those beans are too large to pick anymore", "these are nice and long and thin and very very tender", "these beans are fed by drip irrigation", "there's a black tube that goes underneath these plants and it's laid down", "it has an emitter at the end and it has little holes every inch and a half and that waters the plants", "the ground is wet underneath", "and that's what's protecting and making these plants grow well even though we're in a drought", "one inch in one month that's not a lot of rain for growing beans and product", "so how many beans can he get out of a plant you get probably about a pound or so out of a plant", "they yield really quite good", "he can look at that when he pans down as well they are on pretty thick and they are very nice beans", "oh you can almost pick a handful at a time huh exactly", "wow", "very nice", "oh wow that looks so good", "fresh beans are amazing", "just cracks in your mouth delicious", "i know dutch people just love beans don't we i know we do", "it's so good", "let's go take some more pictures of some more things that we grow", "great and here's the peppers", "there's all different colors in there", "oh cool", "and then here's cabbage", "now they've got plastic under them", "is that to keep em moist that's to keep the weeds out", "and there's a drip line irrigation under every one", "oh okay to save water", "yep and here's hot peppers and different jalapeno and different kinds like that", "and then here we got our late tomatoes", "and then some flowers and then these here are sweet potatoes coming out", "so that wraps up this wonderful tour of visser farms that came from farmers market", "and we're so glad that you could be with us on the wagon and looking at all the crops", "this is a wonderful day to be out on the farm and we know all the days are not this nice but we are really enjoying the best of farming here", "we hope that this is engaging and that you feel more informed about at your next trip to farmers market", "and we're so grateful to visser farms for their time and helping us learn all of this", "if you would like to watch this program or other ones of city connections you can do that by going to vimeocomcityofholland", "you can see all the different city connection shows and there's also a number on the screen that you can call if you don't have online access", "thanks for joining us this wonderful day"], "name": ["City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market/City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market/City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market/City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market/City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market/City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market/City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market/City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market/City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market/City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market/City_Connections_-_Farm_to_Market_DOT_flac_00004.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "GoodWrin1951.flac", "identifier": "GoodWrin1951", "text_document_id": "GoodWrin1951.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [7944, 3389, 7147, 6152, 1565, 13335, 2643, 3663, 4000, 23543, 4053, 1413, 3643, 4400, 6983, 5070, 5690, 7880, 27833, 11423, 5465, 3030, 9403, 3930, 6813, 10710, 7800, 8003, 10050, 6993, 6101, 5513, 23653, 7470, 4850, 4820, 4600, 3400, 2490, 3830, 4110, 5110, 5443, 7043, 3960, 2480, 6380, 2973, 6420, 3543, 26340, 12633, 7243, 6793, 8987, 5460, 3177, 6023, 7591, 2043, 4413, 6750, 6020, 3170, 10220, 12060, 4410, 6013, 5483, 2220, 5073, 9593, 1650, 13230, 5350, 3430, 3183, 3530, 7983, 5020, 4333, 4013, 4110, 5810, 5233, 17673, 20220, 18553, 5640, 9590, 3333, 1953, 8420, 2553, 9700, 12320, 4653, 10693, 5130, 2790, 2973, 4480, 14283, 13373, 5483, 3920, 18940, 5410, 5223, 5550, 5950, 3340, 1990, 6050, 4190, 3490, 6970, 9260, 6890, 4653, 3220, 12360, 7970, 19120, 4153, 8920, 6820, 5170], "label": ["good evening ladies and gentlemen this is john nesbitt bringing you the hollywood premiere of sunny sweet in his latest picture good wrinkles", "here he is now and listen to those fans", "can we have your autograph there are many celebrities here but tonight all eyes are on sunnysweet", "please sunny please may i have your autograph maybe i can break in here and get him to say a few words", "all about the scene", "please sunny sign mine first here's mine yes i know what you would have said six or seven prunes a day are good for you in every way and that's good advice", "there he goes a hollywood star now", "let me tell you the story of how this local boy made good", "sunny comes from a famous french family in california", "he was born on a balmy spring day and as any baby at first he just laid there drinking in the sunshine as the months passed by sunny was nourished by mother nature with nutrient riches that poured down from the warm california sunshine and up from the rich soil in which the parent tree was rooted", "by the time fall had come sunny was fully grown", "ready to go into the world", "there he goes off to seek adventure in hollywood", "well sunny was soon to find out that there was much new world of his", "in the first place he had never realized that all prunes are plums but all plums are not prunes", "for prunes you see are a special kind of plum that can be dried without fermenting", "but sunny qualifies and his career as a movie star was well underway", "he was soon to find out that there were many prunes from his family here at the studio and that he would have the opportunity to work with some of them", "sunny's french prune family sometimes called the prune d'agen is famous for its sweetness flavor and quality prunes of the french prune family run to the middle sizes so when you see the words medium large or extra large on the package remember these sizes refer to french prunes which never grows so large as some other varieties but which are never surpassed in sweetness and good eating quality", "in his first picture sunny played the part of a french duke in his regal costume he fittingly represents true prune royalty for french prunes are the most popular of all prunes", "quiet action there are larger prunes to be sure", "here's pearl one of sunny's best friends", "she is an imperial prune and her family which thrives in very few areas is not sufficiently numerous to be a major factor in the prune industry", "my but she is a shy one and rightly so", "well she comes from a prune family that is shy in many ways especially at fruit bearing time", "from pearl sunny learned that there were various other varieties of prunes but most of them are grown only in small quantities and are not important on a commercial scale", "she told him that should he come upon any members of the prune family grown in the pacific northwest he would find them noticeably tart", "this tartness being due to a larger acid content and a slightly smaller sugar content than the french prunes grown in california", "sunday finished his role as the duke and the studio assigned him almost immediately to a film in which he portrayed a world's champion prize fighter", "he played many important parts in the movies just as prunes in real life play an important part in keeping us healthy", "and now with his great supply of prune energy movie actor sunny wind up for the knockout punch", "sunny knocks out fatigue just as prune sugar energy overcomes fatigue in our bodies", "the average sugar content of french prunes is forty nine and a half percent which comes from their long natural ripening in the sun prune sugar is in the form of readily digestible carbohydrates chiefly invert sugar which is readily absorbed into the blood to do the job of supplying quick energy so needed when the going gets a bit rough and the tired body needs a pickup", "now let's see some of the requirements for that good to feel good feeling if you don't mind i'll be scientific for a few moments", "there is carotene for instance which is changed by the body to vitamin a", "prunes are an excellent source of carotene and therefore of this valuable vitamin", "of which the minimum requirement is five thousand international units per day", "this is the vitamin that does so much to protect precious eyesight", "and it's important for proper growth too", "then there is riboflavin one of the b complex vitamins", "prunes have a higher riboflavin content than any other fruit", "the average requirement of this vitamin is one and eight tenths milligrams per day", "it is needed for steady nerves a clear skin and good digestion as well as for proper growth", "thiamine also known as vitamin b1 contributes to healthy nerves a good appetite and proper growth", "the daily requirement of thiamine is one and two tenths milligrams", "also there is the mineral iron", "so necessary for its blood regenerating powers and an essential part of every living tissue in the body", "your daily requirement of iron is twelve milligrams", "this is sunny's way of showing just how much good six or seven prunes a day can do for you", "they furnish a great percentage of these essential needs of man", "six or seven quality prunes are approximately fifty grams of edible fruit which furnish twenty seven of the average daily minimum requirement of vitamin a thirty eight and one half percent of the daily requirement of riboflavin or vitamin b2 twelve and a half percent of the daily requirement of thiamine or vitamin b1 and sixteen and six tenths percent of the average daily minimum requirement of iron to feel good", "the story of sunny's life as a movie star would never be complete without his most famous role as dr sunny it's a natural for him for prunes can surely do much to keep us healthy and well", "as every nurse and dietician learns early in her training prunes are highly effective as a gentle natural aid to regularity", "this is due partly to the abundance of soft fruit cellulose food bulk in its natural and most valuable form", "and partly to the presence of a specific laxative element which has certain chemical and physiological properties similar to catholic and chlorogenic acid", "calling dr sweet calling dr sunny sweet emergency at room two hundred and eight", "hey doc emergency room two o eight", "say aah hmm coated tongue", "hmm most irregular eh but dr sonny knows the answer", "the patient will be well in no time", "and now he says with the rest of us it's good to feel good", "now let's turn from sunday's hollywood career and get a little better acquainted with his family background", "we've found that prunes are unique and more than just their down right tastiness and food value", "for example there's the way prunes are harvested", "in the springtime they begin their gradual development and throughout the summer are richly nourished by mother nature finally in august they begin to ripen", "however the finest prunes are not picked like other fruit but are allowed to hang in the sunshine until they're so plump and heavy with juicy goodness they drop from the trees of their own weight", "when nature says you're ready down they go", "the soil has been previously turned and worked to a cushiony mattress to catch the falling fruit", "and there they lie purple and plump all ready to be carefully gathered by hand", "now here we are at the plant", "let's see how plums become prunes by what is known as the dehydrating process", "they are first put through a hot fifteen second alkaline bath to slightly crack the skins and allow for more rapid evaporation of the moisture in the fruit", "next they are thoroughly rinsed", "then they are spread in single layers on large trays to be dried while open field drying was the only method employed for many years this method has now been largely replaced by modern mechanical dehydrators", "and it is in these dehydrators that the prune as we know it best actually comes to be", "these are truly good wrinkles", "the one place where wrinkles are looked upon as a sign of distinction", "the next step is to sort the prunes according to size", "as they pass over a series of graduated holes in the sorting conveyor they drop through the holes they fit and are thus automatically graded", "prune sizes are designated by the number of prunes it takes to make a pound", "naturally the fewer the prunes to the pound the larger the individual prunes", "the medium size is graded sixty seven or less prunes to the pound", "the large size runs fifty three prunes or less to the pound", "then comes the extralarge size which averages forty three prunes or less to the pound", "thus you are reminded again the fewer the prunes per pound the larger the fruit", "the final step before packaging is the special sunsweet tenderize process using only heat and moisture this process leaves the prunes plump and tender which permits very rapid cooking thus eliminating the vitamin loss which sometimes results from longer preparation", "from the tenderize process the prunes are immediately packed steaming hot into parchment paper bags which are enclosed in protective cartons also as an added protection against air dust light and heat the cartons are in turn enclosed and sealed in a lustrous gold or silver foil wrapper", "this hot packing and foil sealing ensures uniform moisture tenderness and fine eating quality throughout the contents of the package in addition to protecting the whole rich goodness of the fruit the foil wrapper is an easy way to always identify your favorite brand", "fresh from the carton the prunes are ready to be served in an infinite variety of ways", "raw for example the special tenderize process makes prunes so tender and good you can eat them just like candy right out of the box", "and raw they provide all the qualities of a natural fruit", "or prepare them in this simple way", "just fill a jar with prunes add boiling water to cover screw on the lid let cool then place in your refrigerator for several days", "the longer they stand the thicker the juice", "this american breakfast tradition is delicious when served with a little cream or with a dash of lemon or just sitting pretty in their own juice", "for serving with meat spiced and pickled prunes or prune pie a tempting luscious dessert with a billowy merengue that can be put together in a twinkling", "prune whip is another famous american dish the perfect dessert for a perfect meal", "here's another wonderful treat prune birthday cake a tender moist fruity cake just right for every day of the year and for special occasions too such as junior's birthday party", "our country however it isn't the only one that knows all about the select uses of prunes", "they are a favorite fruit in many countries", "let's see what the people of scandinavia know about prunes", "if you should find unexpected guests are on the way and a quick sweet bread is what you'll need", "just try prune biscuit roll prepare about two cups of your favorite biscuit mix by merely adding milk then roll the dough to a quarter inch thickness and spread evenly with one and a half cups of chopped and pitted cooked prunes", "you then top the prunes with a quarter cup of melted butter one half cup of sugar spiced with cinnamon or nutmeg and carefully roll like a jelly roll", "then place the role in a buttered baking dish and bake in a moderate oven for forty five minutes to an hour", "when cool the roll is cut into slices and there you are", "as easy as that coffee time's complete with dainty prune biscuit rolls here's the desserts the vanilla cream portion in this bowl is a blend of eggs quarterserved cold delicious another delightful dessert of theirs which can be served hot or cold is prunes with merengue", "the merengue is spread over the prunes and the dessert is baked until the top is golden brown", "if you have a sweet tooth serve it with cream or vanilla sauce and it's a mouthwatering treat", "another favorite of theirs prune souffle as light and fluffy as a dream", "and believe it or not the scandinavians even make a soup of prunes which they serve cold", "a swedish specialty no doubt but try it sometime", "you might like it", "scandinavian cooks use prunes a great deal with meat especially with fatty meats like pork", "one method is to stuff spare ribs with pitted prunes before baking", "this adds a delicate succulent flavor to the ribs", "another popular method of theirs is to serve boiled prunes right along with fried or baked pork chops", "yet another delicious way they combine meat with prunes is to place the prunes on slices of pork rolling them until they're crisp and brown", "ans here is an idea of theirs that works wonders with fowl stuff chicken turkey or duck with prunes", "the sweetness and richness of the prunes really enhances the flavor of the fowl", "yes there are hundreds of ways to serve prunes", "and to help in preparing these you have seen plus countless other prune delicacies sunsweet has gathered together a wonderful collection of prune recipes which have been put into a handy booklet", "merely mail your requests to sunsweet box six seven o san jose california for a free copy", "however you serve these prunes you can be sure they are a delicious full flavored perfect eating fruit just as important they are rich in nature's own vitamins and valuable food minerals a quick energy food that gives children and adults alike that good to feel good feeling", "serve prunes often they are good any way any time", "so there in all his regal splendor sits sunny proud of his royal heritage proud too of the golden carton which he sponsors", "and which is your guarantee of extra tenderness and extra goodness in the prunes you buy", "your sure guide to good wrinkles when you go shopping for prunes"], "name": ["GoodWrin1951/GoodWrin1951/GoodWrin1951_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "GoodWrin1951/GoodWrin1951/GoodWrin1951_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "GoodWrin1951/GoodWrin1951/GoodWrin1951_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "Plan_Peters_2022_-_Closing_Presentation_-_Audience_Q_A.flac", "identifier": "Plan_Peters_2022_-_Closing_Presentation_-_Audience_Q_A", "text_document_id": "Plan_Peters_2022_-_Closing_Presentation_-_Audience_Q_A.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [7430, 20450, 1488, 16052, 14722, 5048, 7840, 15260, 13190, 3280, 19560, 16453, 9360, 4003, 12484, 13006, 3020, 33673, 8693, 10050, 5910, 5000, 6120, 1190, 1700, 9190, 10350, 13233, 7356, 5284, 5160, 10343, 9848, 833, 3570, 5750, 833, 2700, 9747, 6373, 4870, 3940, 6620, 9250, 1350, 2649, 833, 11894, 2274, 6430, 4530, 4250, 7260, 22350, 5310, 13340, 7610, 16753, 4530, 5863, 5102, 4572, 7410, 11576, 2174, 833, 2257, 14140, 6440, 3387, 9110, 2810, 6920, 9823, 2223, 4117, 1639, 8394, 12530, 9520, 5980, 6709, 1511, 3780, 18099, 6914, 3960, 2540, 5090, 3330, 7410, 1750, 7620, 4920, 4510, 5450, 3720, 4110, 1650, 4250, 1393, 5267, 11020, 9400, 15150, 1880, 6890, 1710, 4120, 1963, 990, 1640, 2310, 2310, 18630, 9370, 5990, 4737, 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you had said earlier", "you were also going to keep an eye on the criteria and the way things are going with the economy and some of the other things which means you may have to keep reprioritizing to go along with the conditions at the time of just everything in there sure sure", "okay", "everybody hear that just because of changing conditions we want to be cognizant of that as we proceed with the plan to make sure that those kinds of influences are considered as we plan is that fair yes yes yeah", "so the thing to keep in mind is obviously this is a long range plan so even the recession as painful as it was for a lot of people is kind of a blip on the radar screen", "it's going to take some areas longer than others to get out of that", "it certainly has had a profound impact on how some development is done and will be done in the future", "and i think we talked about that tuesday night the changing face of commercial for example how overbuilt so many communities are and developers are starting to rethink that the demand for commercial the type of commercial", "and that's one reason why mixeduse development is becoming more popular because commercial is being scaled down and offices and residential are being added to make the projects more viable", "but yeah we certainly will be looking at that", "and that's one reason why we did the market study is so we would have some understanding as we move forward what is reasonable and what isn't you know so many communities do a plan without benefit of really understanding how much need or demand there is without looking at surrounding communities", "you know if we were just looking at peters township in a vacuum and not considering southpoint we might be inclined to say well you know we could support a big office research industrial park here which isn't feasible", "so understanding the market conditions helps us to stay fairly well grounded and come up with a more implementable plan", "sure i guess just watching the news constantly", "it's amazing just even with the commercial businesses how some of the giants are talking about cutting back the number of stores they have throughout the country", "sure and i'm sure that would have an impact on a lot of areas like ours throughout the country because when you're closing stores that also hurts the community", "it does but it can also be an opportunity", "and we worked with some communities where they one in particular that i can think of they had two big box stores sidebyside both went out of business and they came to us and said okay do us a plan figure out what we do with whatever it was forty acres of parking lot and vacant buildings and they reinvented that whole area into more of a community center with recreation entertainment some small retail", "but you know who would have thought ten years ago that national chains would not exist anymore", "but again going back to one of the examples that matt showed it can be an opportunity because right now the big box is the focal point", "kmart is the focal point in that shopping center", "but twenty years from now that could be totally different", "so we want to keep an open mind about what the possibilities might be yes sir thank you very much", "one thing about um", "and all the models were impressive", "you got chits and color codes and everything else and one thing that wasn't mentioned was taxes on what the implications that your various strategies would do the taxes", "i'm sure that would have an impact in adoptability yeah this one right now part of what we're doing", "if you remember from the tuesday night presentation the trend development scenario now so if you just do nothing and build out under your zoning your annual shortfall is about three hundred to three hundred and fifty thousand", "if anyone is really keeping a close watch of their tax bill that's about a mill millage one mill of increase tax", "or you could do and to try to offset some of that", "but right now you are running a deficit each year and using reserve funds to cover that", "so as part of this as we as we dream up other things that's going to be one thing we look at is are we closing the gap are we lengthening in the gap where do we fall in that yes taxes are very important", "in this plan has any thought been given to marketing peters township now you talk about a tax shortfall", "yeah", "we have a great library over here mm hm", "that would cost millions to duplicate in any one of a number of surrounding communities", "correct", "finley bibb i could go on", "why don't we market our library to these communities and of course be able to receive some compensation for that market", "we've got a community center which serves approximately five of the population of this township", "i have yet to see a wedding ceremony or a wedding party over there", "i mean that's a facility that could be generating income", "and producing income that could offset that tax increase that you're talking about", "has any thought been given to marketing peters township services there hasn't been any conclusions on that yet but there's no reason that wouldn't move forward", "matt sorry to interrupt you", "can you please just summarize again sorry", "sorry", "the question was has there been any thought given in the planning process today about marketing some of the assets you already have like the library like the recreation center and things like that", "is that correct yes okay", "and my answer started by saying not at this point but that's what the planning process is all about", "we start very high level and we continue to get focused and refine", "and that's one of those things that is as paul continues in the process that that should be brought up", "i will tell you because we work around the country that is a very successful strategy that we've seen others use", "and what that means is you need to create well a brand and identity of peters township and what it is and then you need to go sell it right so not only would you there's some towns i used to work with in texas that they would create packages of all the assets of what they offered and they would go to those trade shows and that and they'd have a booth that talks about why they're great", "you know there's no reason you couldn't do that on a smaller scale with your community assets trying to compete in here", "because let's be very honest with ourselves while we need to be friendly with our neighbors for economic development sometimes you're competing with your neighbors right so it's friendly competition i hope but you need to put your best foot forward in order to capitalize", "because when somebody does site selection and they come and see what you have to offer make it as easy as you can for those people to get the information", "even planning services for those less wellfunded communities would be not only a boom to them in developing those communities but also a boom to our community through generation of income", "and offset it because he the young man in the front row is dead right", "taxes are going to be a problem as more of us get older and that's happening", "i think there's more aarp cards in this audience than there are anything else", "and taxes are certainly something that potential home buyers look at", "we're in competition for new homes with places like north strabane and other communities", "we've got to remain competitive and certainly that boils down to in many ways taxes and services most more services at the least possible cost", "that's the winning strategy", "it is", "just to add to your point about marketing the library", "i think that reinforces the idea of strengthening this as a town center and giving people an opportunity to do something more than just visit the library but create public spaces for events", "provide more shops and things to do so that they can play off one another", "and there's a reason to come here and stay for awhile", "well if i may say something when we were doing our petition we went on we have a trail night", "and it was it gets quite busy", "but we didn't get many signatures because most of the people were coming from other places to walk the trail", "so i do view our trail and that was a focus in our group our trail was a big asset to our community and i think it really needs to be developed", "yeah i think a lot of groups said that", "did the whole audience hear that that the trail's a large asset", "yeah yes", "just a quick question ah in all the other workshops which i wasn't a part of i'm just kind of wondering about the the type of transit", "with areas in conjunction with what you're talking about the other day parking is going to be an issue in some of these areas especially you know if you have a big facility and a lot of people need to get to", "are we thinking ahead and how we can maybe bus people have a transit system at our area which we i don't believe we do have one", "to get around maybe from the senior centers to the town center the store whatever the case may be", "or maybe some of us want to meet into some of these other new areas you're talking about as a model to see what they're all about", "we don't have to use our car", "you don't have to worry about the parking problems and stuff like that", "is there some discussion in that area or thoughts um the question was about transit and what level of dialogue was there on transit and what were any conclusions that occurred and the like is that correct mmhm okay", "um if i'm thinking back through the four events i would say that that the discussion on transit was probably lukewarm at this point", "there were people who wanted it and then there were people who did not want it", "so the answer falls somewhere in between", "the resources are on the team to look at transit as part of the process continuing", "but transit is successful when you have riders", "and riders it's simple right and riders are generated a lot of times by density and by use", "so like all coming together", "so what happens in this reminds me of a project that i did in memphis tennessee where everybody wanted light rail transit", "so like the station at the library now that y'all know where that is the light rail station", "people are like can we extend that can we extend it well this happened in memphis", "and they said we want the light rail extended but we only want to have you know three units an acre", "and they said well look it cost me this much to build that technology", "so in exchange you have ridership i need at least this many riders to be there", "and the density wasn't there", "some general rules of thumb like for for light rail and ones with a park and ride", "you want like twenty five units an acre", "is that what you're using so i mean very dense dense types of developments", "so the reason i'm saying that is when it comes to transit we need to make sure we make make sure our transportation technology and our land use decisions are one in the same", "so if we want transit and you know i'm not saying either way but if we want transit then we have to have a discussion about what land use patterns and densities will allow that", "if we don't ah if we want to have a certain land use pattern and development density within the community that does not support transit you need to know that's the case so that you understand why transit providers might not be knocking down your door to give you transit", "i mean there's all different levels", "you know we talked about light rail just cause cause i drove by library but you know you could have the smaller bus demand service", "there's all kinds of different levels", "but it's all gonna come down to whether they can sustain their business", "and that's going to come down to ridership", "alright", "i'm assuming it's way too early for this", "but at some point this plan is all going to come together", "the township's gonna move forward", "will there be any time when individual property owners or neighborhoods when they finally see what's going on right in their neighborhood where they'll have a voice to say either yes we did that is what we imagined or no we don't we didn't want that here in our specific area well it's so much easier to write a plan i'm involved in", "but they're very successful right no ah because paul's going to be heading the process from here forward for the plan", "but you know i can tell you that you have to involve and talk with those people", "and i mean there's legal informal ways like public adoption hearings and stuff like that", "but there's also other opportunities like just having dropin sessions where once the draft plan is in the hands of township staff they announce they have it", "and you know for a week or something you have almost like when we were in college where you had office hours and you could go drop in and ask the township anything you want let's go find my property", "what does it mean what's going on let me give you a formal comment that i would like you to have attached to your staff report or something of that nature", "so that everything is there to let that happen", "we need to be very honest with ourselves", "this plan will not be successful without the support of community", "it would just go on a million dollar shelf just like all the reports go on right so all those things are going to be in the report", "and to follow up that's a conversation we want to have with the steering committee to find out what they suggest we do somewhere between here and the public hearing", "like i said anything we do what we posted on the website", "but if they feel that we need a more formal opportunity and open another open house or something like that", "ah then there's certainly amenable to do that kind of thing", "well just like i talked about working with the planning commission and township council we don't want the public to be blindsided either so", "and as as paul's saying as he's going to discuss with the steering committee there's options", "but just everybody in this room understand that the planning department downstairs we're open eight hundred and thirty to four hundred and thirty every day", "we would welcome anybody at any time to come in and discuss this", "your ideas your concerns we're open to anybody come in and we'll talk to anybody at any time", "so know that we have a very open door policy so you're welcome to come in at any time", "we'll get it yes sir is there any process by which the community plans to reach out to for example manufacturers ah bring some of that into the township", "we have a solid little bit of the rail line in the neisha it's designated as industrial", "you know just off the top of my head going back to the senior citizen there's an awful lot of manufacturing of artificial joints for example that's just one example sure", "a very clean industry requiring hightech and skilled workers to attract that kind of a business", "any thoughts along those lines well in fact in our market study howard was here on tuesday night", "he did identify not a complete laundry list but identified a number of business types that aren't here now that based on his experience and his work around the country he thinks there may be some opportunity to explore", "and that certainly could be one of them", "oh we had a great conversation the other day over lunch about you know again the changing dynamic of how things are done with the internet with shopping online with you know his feeling and i've read articles about within ten years many people won't even go shopping for clothes because you will go in once get measured completely go online tell them what you want", "it's manufactured in a factory no bigger than this by two or three people running machines", "i mean it's there was an advertisement on the radio today and it actually took into account female sizes by height", "and so a size ten or whatever was slightly different", "yeah", "on the radio today", "so we can't even conceive right now of all the changes that we will witness in ten or twenty years", "the rate of change is accelerating", "exactly exactly", "we do have the facility already in chip manufacturing parts for inclients", "great good to hear", "that is just so you know", "so that as a part of that implementation recommendations in the plan we'll be looking at things like that", "looking at branding we've already had some discussions with staff about whether things like tax increment financing and community improvement districts that other states use are potentially available to peters township to fund redevelopment", "so it's too early to know what those actions are going to be but we want to go beyond just zoning changes", "we want to look at organizational changes", "we want to look at capital improvements", "we want to look at the waterfront in terms of how we accomplish the things that we're setting out to do", "just for the sake of we're videotaping these presentations obviously for people that are at home that couldn't attend this evening", "so i know i'm repeating but the question was ah manufacturing and the specific thing was implants", "and our planning director had said that there is already a facility within peters township that has been manufacturing those and has done so for awhile", "yes ma'am i just need a clarification", "you're talking about marketing the services within peters township", "and if i'm clear on this say some of the neighboring parks or the small communities really cannot afford to have the big bigger libraries or even a library", "i can think of eighty four and finleyville right off the top of my head", "so basically this would be peters township offering the people if they would want to come and use our facilities ah say the rec center then there would be a charge to them", "but at least they would have something available to them that they don't have in their small communities", "is that what you're talking about well let me repeat the question i guess is for clarification the concept that i think this gentleman brought up earlier", "marketing facilities that peters township has that they're wellknown for that they're proud of that other communities in the surrounding area may not have or may not have the level of quality that peters township does", "would we market to them and charge them to use those facilities those are policy decisions", "you know i think we've already heard from staff here that there is there are a number of cooperative agreements in place with adjoining communities to share services", "that might be the next step to actually market peters township assets to surrounding areas", "whether they're charged for it or not charged or how much as matt said that's beyond my pay grade", "most of the", "another example of that would be a regional police department", "you had raised your hand how long did you guys touch upon a little things like more density and mixed use what are the tax implications for the school district is that a good idea a bad idea what does that exactly bring to the community from a dollars and cents point does it that's a great question", "the question was if we could expand on the idea the concept of mixed use in terms of the use the density and its common characteristics specifically in terms of impacts to schools or other services provided by the town the tax base and those kinds of things", "correct okay", "that's an interesting question", "because two people could probably hire paul and i separately to argue the point back and forth because a lot of it is all i need more information kind of thing", "and what i mean by that is there is you know sort of a minimum definition of mixed use which is two or more uses but they could be uses that don't have any synergy together", "they can be used as that look like two different developments and they only share an entrance", "so you have to have meaningful mixed use", "and when i say mixed use i'm talking about like destination mixed use", "when i started to make some of these statements", "mixed use development is the way we're defining it being something more dense and with more uses on the same site than what you have been in the township today", "by its very nature of having more stuff on the land would have a higher total building value which usually translates into greater taxes", "on the same piece of land because the land value would be the same", "i think i was probably thinking along the lines of making that an apartment building as opposed to mixed use which we don't have any", "does that bring more people in or does it take pressure off the school district you know because there's residents that maybe not have kids in there but they're still paying the school tax", "yeah well i mean is as a general rule you know nonresidential uses pay taxes", "if it goes into a general fund for schools then that money could be used to help offset", "but if you have a separate millage rate that's charged just to say residents for schools and we do then there would be no benefit by having more nonresidential because they're not actually being taxed for the schools", "but there's interesting ways you can do it", "you know some committees we work in you can start to earmark some of like a sales tax or some other fees and taxes in order to help offset", "but usually the legal test is to have a rational nexus meaning you have to have a connection sort of for what you're charging and the service that you're providing", "so again it gets very complicated", "your specific question about an apartment complex versus a mixed use development", "obviously if the mixed use development ended up having some combination that had less units than the apartment complex then you would have less impact on schools cause you'd have less students", "but the tax question is a little more complicated", "we'd have to run through it", "maybe to take that one step further", "in looking at different types of residential single family versus multifamily versus condos", "there and there is no universal number but in all the studies that i'm aware of single family homes generate more school kids than condos and even more than apartments", "so you know that gets entered into the equation that the condo developer or the apartment owner is paying taxes but not using the school system to the same extent as the single family subdivision", "so you know those are like i said we did look at that", "in fact uh we looked at that to see if those were numbers we could use in this exercise", "but the numbers are all over the board", "you know i think relatively speaking what i just said is consistent across all studies", "but the actual numbers of how many kids come from a home versus an apartment versus a condo differ by region and based on other factors as well", "so by the time we're done to the end of this one we'll have a better answer for that question you'll have an answer", "part of it depends i mean literally is as recent as this afternoon we're still trying to work with the school district to get the right generation right to assume", "so i could give you a conclusion based on what we've done today but we could have the wrong rates", "so i mean it would be premature at this point to give you an answer but all that stuff does get factored in", "and once we have good data we'll get good answers", "but that woman went first and then you're next okay throughout all of these last three days did you hear much of anybody say or allude to the fact that while peter's township isn't really broke very bad if it isn't broke don't fix it is the way it's going is fairly good", "as all the ones that i attended all the sessions that i attended for example the ones with the stickers we were given a packet of stickers and there was a certain amount of stickers in each packet", "and you had to put the stickers on which sort of translate into well we need quite a bit of change because there was a lot of stickers in there", "you have to put them somewhere", "yeah you had to", "so um if i would have had that pack i would maybe only picked out one or two stickers well we may we need a little bit of change but not a lot of change did you hear any of that that peters township isn't that bad i like peters township because i do", "i like the school my kids go to school and i'm proud of it", "but maybe the way it's going is not that bad", "and it should somewhat continue that way", "did you hear any of that yes the the question that was raised was how often and to what level did you hear that everything is fine at peter's township just leave us as we are we're happy as we are and we want to continue down that path", "is that correct okay", "we did hear that in each session in the beginning of each session you know why do you remember we asked what do you like most about peter's township what do you like what's your biggest challenges kind of things", "it did come out a lot in the beginning of the sessions about hey we just like it the way it is", "we moved here for a reason", "as those conversations wen went on though there were kind of two important things that came to light that had people scratch their head but maybe not change your opinion but at least thinking about it", "the first one being that peters township welcomed most of you all from somewhere else is that correct okay", "so at some point they opened you with him with open arms", "so you came and added to what peters township is", "and so it may be wrong of you not to invite the next person to come", "and then the second thing that came up a little bit was well the one way to keep peters township exactly as it is today is to not allow any more development", "and those people who have zoning that allow development right now we're not very happy about that", "because they felt that they had rights and they had counted on some things and what their land can become and what it is", "so those two things were discussion points", "now it didn't mean it that it either swayed anybody one way or another but i'm just reporting to you kind of what was said rather than me giving a conclusion of what i felt the opinion or my opinion of that is", "but that's kind of how it came up and how the discussions led after that", "it was overwhelmingly supported that everyone likes living in peters township and they want to protect it to whatever extent they can", "because they want to keep it the way it is", "but if if growth is going to occur they want to grow with their eyes open and kind of know what's coming and be prepared for it", "rather than find out some day that you wake up and you just want to move", "so that that's kind of just some vibe", "but i don't want to give you my conclusions but that's the vibe", "and i found it interesting that out of eleven groups only three chose the trend packet", "in other words keep going the way we are", "and even among those groups in most cases if you look at their i mean you can look at the map and figure out which one had eighty three stickers and which one had forty", "but even among the groups that picked the trend packet in most cases they've also added some mixed use development in nodes or isolated locations around the township", "which indicated to us that even though they they generally want things to continue as they have they do recognize that some of the things we've talked about tuesday night are concerns", "you know the lack of other commercial areas the lack of housing opportunity and things like that", "so i think one of the outcomes of this is that it wasn't an all or nothing kind of proposition", "all of the groups had many commonalities in terms of where they wanted to see development and the types of development more or less that they were comfortable with", "and just one more thing it's always great when we keep piling on right i just want to bring up this map to give some context to that", "remember this is the growth map that we had", "and as paul had mentioned a lot of tables did come come around to the conclusion they wanted some type of destination to go to", "but if you look at the size of these circles compared to the township as a whole it was not that we needed to start over we were on a bad path kind of an idea", "it was about adding choice and more to the portfolio but it wasn't about erasing so to speak", "one more", "any other questions next question i think she was next", "oh this is the lady over here", "i'm sorry", "um so what happens is there a strategy let's say you skipped you know ten fifteen years from now and we have grown and we're fully maximizing all our land use", "what is the strategy for sustaining that into the future and is there anything we can do now till then to make it so that it's sustainable what do you do what is the strategy sure do you want to start i can start and then you can have the last two", "well that's that's the purpose of the plan because that's one of the words that we've been throwing about is sustainability", "and is the current model going to sustain us into the future or do we have to make some midcourse corrections if you will", "and that's why i said a few minutes ago even though you know when we finish all this and we have a good plan and the majority of people love it it's been adopted all that the job isn't done because things do change and we will have to look at it annually to make sure that if we need to make midcourse corrections we can", "but you know based on what we heard yesterday i think a lot of people are starting to understand that we do have the opportunity and probably have the need to do some things a little differently than what we've done in the past", "and you know again change is happening at such a rapid rate", "we don't have a crystal ball", "we can't predict what ten years is going to look like from now", "we're basing it on what we know when we read what other communities are doing", "i think that we're going to do a good job but i think the community needs to be vigilant and monitor the plan and monitor progress and make changes as needed", "one thing i would just add quickly is i would encourage you and you always want to plan with the end in mind", "but i would encourage you and i told you earlier that this isn't my plan", "so this is just a suggestion but what i'll encourage you to do and other communities have done is even though they're called guiding principles i like to call them the timeless principles", "so when you all come up with timeless principles and start with a steering committee and they share and ask for your opinions take those seriously", "because those should be things that no matter how many times you update your plan they stay true", "so for example we just finished a plan in londonderry new hampshire", "and some of the guiding principles that they had were stay forever green", "so very very simple but could adapt to whatever new situations came up", "but you knew no matter from now to the end you wanted to be green", "they wanted to be a walkable community", "they wanted to enhance their municipal advantage", "those were the type of statements as principals they made because if the game changes a little bit it's okay", "but they do not want to leave their principles because once you do what you did behind you may not be good anymore", "so always planning with that in mind and the principals are general enough that they shouldn't be able to withstand recessions and all that kind of stuff and stay true to them", "and that's how i make sure that they end up working", "jamie had a question", "my observation was you said tuesday night peters township is ninety eight single family homes", "and the national average is seventy four", "and in our group which was the group over here they put half of their lots all over that undeveloped ground in uh brighton right right", "and i looked at all the maps and i looked at the map you have here", "we want some change but we want it controlled right and there's certain areas we'd like to see that change", "yeah", "there was consensus on where change would be contemplated", "i wouldn't even say welcomed", "where it would be contemplated", "first is mapping it all out in half acre lots", "in keeping us at ninety eight half acre lots", "that was the that was the theme that came out of this week's events", "now this week's event just so everyone knows gets combined with all the different ways input is being put into this plan", "and so it'll all be balanced but out of this week's events that's what consensus can be reached", "the plan which i think you mentioned was due in november august", "august pardon me", "i may ask for the extension though", "it's okay by me", "i know", "the plan when it is finished and adopted within ten years how much of this original plan do you think will be final in the ten year period how much of it will", "final in terms of implemented ten twenty the question is ten years from now in your experience how far down the road will we be in terms of implementing the plan as it was written", "yeah", "well there there are a couple different things", "one would be the action recommendations that will be in the plan", "we would hope ten years from now the majority of those would have been put in place", "in terms of land use that's much more difficult to determine because again there's economic factors and so on", "but i certainly expect that in the lengthy list of action steps that we put in the plan", "if the township is committed to the plan which i have every reason to believe they will be", "they'll start going down that list and implementing those recommendations", "i'd be very disappointed if a majority of those weren't in place ten years from now if not all of them", "so a majority you're talking say seventy i sure we have to say it's let's just go back to the two thousand and one", "and when the plan was completed then", "so some of the recommendations that were then were things like the rec center the improvements to center church and east of murray the improvements that are soon to be happening around route nineteen lands use sometimes it's slow as paul was talking about", "so this is a long range plan there might be depending on the recommendations some things might be able to be implemented very quickly", "they're quick steps that we can take", "they might be a year goal and we can get those things done", "there's other things that depend on the market and private investment as well as well as state funds and local funds to get things done", "it depends on the recommendations", "there's things that can be done quickly", "there's things that will take time for us to get done", "and then there's other things that might rely on outside things that we can't control type of thing", "yes ma'am", "we're really talking of the long range plan and i being a fairly new transplant to here", "i agree that it's a great view but i think we don't we don't want to forget about peters current identity that is making it attractive currently because we have to keep those people coming for the next five to six years as we build out", "so currently the identity is the rural which attracts people as well as the schools", "and tonight it concerns me that in your meetings today that the school was not a focus", "because when we're looking when we came we were looking at communities peters schools stand out and that pulls people into look", "and then they see the beauty of the rural", "and then if we can add a town center down the line i mean this is a good plan but i just want us to keep that focus on the identity that makes us peters right now", "the statement that was made was schools the rural or green character are what attracted you and others to the township", "and you want to make sure that that stays in the forefront of everybody's mind and for both protection enhancement and did i miss anything else that's good", "okay", "yes i mean we agree in all the research and the discussions we've had the schools and the character come up over and over again", "we are working with the school district and that relationship will continue throughout throughout the plan", "as these issues come up and the timing is not on purpose but sometimes we don't site the school until we know what development's going to look like as a whole for example", "so you want to be able to maintain the same service you provide but at the level we're talking about right now which is which is even higher", "we're talking more about like do we need a new school and if we do how many more do we need and then you decide where it goes by where the development patterns and things look like", "so all those conversations occur but it looks kind of like spaghetti you know they all kind of interweave back and forth within each other", "and there is the actually organized chaos going on when you see all this stuff happening", "but just rest assured that both the schools and i can't remember which map it was cause there's more than one but but green kept coming up over and over within the community values that were stated on these maps of reasons that were important", "and that's one of the reasons why you see some areas where people want to do focused growth", "which meant in the other areas they would like to see some of the green remain as well", "so and there's we talked about ideas about you know how do you introduce the green there was the idea about there were two chips in the game", "one was half acre lots what i'll call sort of the predominant neighborhood type that's here right now", "and then there was a chip that was the exact same amount of units but it mandated forty in open space land and open space", "so it was more of a green type concept", "and so that those things are being discussed right now", "no conclusions are being made because we're still working on vision and all of that", "but once the vision comes out and the steering committee starts to share that that's where you need to test them and push back and make sure that those words are into those statements", "and you know and one thing that did come up in our work assignment we came from a very planned community very manicured", "was that as we go into those areas where the developer's allowed to make smaller plans but you have open space we have to be careful that the developer doesn't take the hillside that's unusable and give that as the open space", "and you know that is going to be very important to how peters continues i had that exact conversation today with the recreation department", "i just i said we'd like to have open space but you know we don't want to have to use ropes to climb them", "so yeah usable open space is very important", "you've got a third person piling on now so i just like to point out too that with our steering committee i mentioned those representatives are here", "we also have one of the school board members who is on the steering committee as well", "so there was a long conversation with the school district today", "and those lines have definitely been opened up", "i've been on the phone multiple times getting information for matt so those lines of communication are open", "the steering committees has heard definitely loud and clear", "schools are a big thing", "and then we also have the representative on scene as well", "so just to point out", "i think one of the underpinnings of this plan we need to keep in mind that there's some great things about this community that we want to build on not ignore", "and certainly schools are near if not at the top of that list along with the open space rural character and taxes and so on", "so we also recognize that there are some challenges and we need to address those but we don't want to diminish what's great about this community either", "and i can tell you from my experience having done many plans like this we don't always get cooperation from the school district", "though we try many times the school district is off in their own doing their own thing", "they're playing very close to the vest", "they don't want to divulge their plans or you know even try to coordinate with the community in terms of where growth is going and so on", "i was very gratified we met with the school superintendent and his assistant", "acting", "um not some third level acting superintendent", "not some third level person from the administration", "so you know that signaled to me that they are interested", "we had a great conversation", "they really were interested in what was coming out of the scenario workshop and coordinating with us", "so we're off to a great start with them", "i know there's probably many many more questions and we're going to allow some we can take one more and then we can definitely have conversations afterwards", "it's about quarter to so we'll take one more question and we want to go ahead and get onto the raffle", "the real reason you came take a look at some maps and you guys can come up and ask questions", "sorry for dominating the conversation", "this gentleman right here", "generally speaking how many more years of growth do we have the reason was i was reading an article that said a community is good as long as it's growing but they'll start having problems as soon as they stop growing", "the question and statement that was raised was how long is left until peters township builds out because there was some research that was done that showed that communities tend to start decaying when they don't grow", "and they just get stagnant and start to decline", "it's okay that's fine", "uh i don't have a year that the peters township builds out because of the fact that it's kind of a roller coaster", "especially if you look at the last ten years", "nobody would have thought about the recession and no one's going you know stopping all development in a small time", "but i can tell you that at this point in time you have about a third of your land left to develop and i can tell you what that ends up being", "and then you can look at different growth coders to see about how long would it take to get you there", "but if you plan on only being one number there's a lot of chance of being wrong", "remember when i showed you in the opening presentation how you plan for a hurricane", "so you would want a high and a low estimate", "and then you know you're going to be somewhere in between", "so it's kind of how that it's not tomorrow", "you got plenty more room to grow for several years but i don't want to tell you exactly what year it is because you know there's so many factors that could affect you have a range sometime between now and the year five thousand", "right now the past couple of years is a rough number", "this is just rough", "there's been about a hundred new homes a year", "for the past couple years okay", "we had a high point obviously back in the early 2000's late 90's early 2000's where there was a big spike in growth", "and obviously we dropped off a little bit but we're seeing past three four years it started to come up again", "two hundred would surprise you", "what's that two hundred a year would surprise you", "it used to be the norm", "but i would tell you that we talked about life cycles of communities tuesday night", "and there are a lot of communities that are built out", "most cities are built out", "they don't have any more vacant land for development", "they can't annex any more land but through redevelopment taking some of the older areas or the declining areas and reinventing those areas communities continue to thrive", "so just because you used all the land doesn't mean that you're going to start to necessarily", "you don't stop growing", "right right exactly", "oh stop reaching please", "alright first before i get to this i just like to say 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{"audio_document_id": "ManufacturingWeek.flac", "identifier": "committeee_10_06_2014", "text_document_id": "ManufacturingWeek.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [4590, 7300, 14503, 1823, 2113, 3090, 32270, 18649, 3971, 5910, 9643, 1966, 7971, 4830, 2220, 9160, 11390, 20003, 7437, 8279, 7271, 16903, 2630, 29390, 3960, 4650, 7250, 7150, 4860, 3250, 8920, 24480, 13250, 1840, 3747, 10063, 4530, 23620, 10310, 23780, 11910, 4380, 18958, 23770, 18220, 7260, 4840, 17190, 6690, 19650, 17140, 3460, 18290, 2681, 3110, 6819, 2280, 3391, 5800, 10030, 11480, 7150, 6523, 4029, 5898, 6913, 2380, 2710, 1271, 14239, 12090, 7000, 6860, 7632, 4518, 6460, 6643, 6091, 8719, 12863, 9458, 930, 6759, 8810, 7403, 10020, 20403, 7910, 6233, 13573, 4001, 4689, 4770, 5750, 4401, 3899, 2650, 13930, 10130, 10111, 4189, 3789, 10310, 14200, 7610, 8030, 12810, 16851, 8409, 9802, 6378, 4113, 11127, 2130, 8473, 4757, 3810, 13302, 1277, 4100, 12520, 5300, 7530, 16342, 9908, 2780, 20090, 7690, 1961, 13949, 5670, 2952, 8141, 3257, 2933, 9027, 4410, 11940, 6570, 15110, 9860, 11219, 2420, 2081, 10746, 6070, 10810, 2562, 5960, 8112, 2900, 4160, 2797, 2728, 17295, 9543, 24634], "label": ["sorry about that whenever you're ready to get started", "we want to welcome everyone here to schenectady city hall a few seats here people should come up and relax", "and first i want to thank chad putnam who has really been the driving force in putting this all together and really it's reinforcing how important manufacturing is", "you look at the history of this city", "you look at the history of the region", "many times we were setting the agenda", "we schenectady albany and other places and so there's that crowd foundation that exists within the region and sometimes we take those things for granted and to have a day like today which is national manufacturing day but also we've expanded it to a week because of chad's perseverance to give it a little bit more recognition and to remind people of just how influential manufacturing is and the difference that it makes in our communities", "and so i'd like to now introduce our great congressman paul tonko who is a driving force on so many levels making a difference in the lives of so many people and representing us in congress with the station and the level of pride that we're so proud of", "thank you mayor mccarthy and thank you for leading the city so very well", "leading the cities in this country today it's not an easy task and mayor mccarthy awesome job", "great focus and great structure to the efforts that he makes with the city council and that i see our members of the city council out there too", "so thank you for all the great work", "manufacturing week is a great way to focus on the strength of our manufacturing sector of the american economy", "there are those who would love to suggest that manufacturing is hit its heyday and it's over", "and the message is very straightforward", "it's not dirty dumb disappearing but strong and sturdy and providing a shot in the arm as we go forward", "i serve on the energy and commerce committee in the house and it is there that we have a lot of hearings concerning the innovation economy and the retrofitting of our manufacturing sector", "so as to be of most competitive standing on the international scene and i'm part of an effort in the house that has been introduced as a programmatic concept called make it in america it's a collection of several bills that includes an emphasis on exporting", "it includes an emphasis on retrofitting our traditional manufacturing to carry it into an advanced mode", "it talks about training retraining dollars education higher ed and certainly in the investment in the clean energy hightech innovation economy", "we are gifted in this area to be recognized as one of those powerful regions in the country", "we're just visited for a repeat visit i would add by assistant secretary of the department of energy david danielson and in his visit he touted the fact that we are one of the five hottest areas in the country for innovation clean energy job growth", "that's manufacturing that's manufacturing", "many of us were at one of the local ribbon cuttings when they introduced ges new manufacturing center in the step park which is a strong bit of encouragement but being one of those hottest beds of innovation job growth is also sparked by the news that the secretary shared that of those five regions we are one of the two most exponentially fast growing regions of those five", "so there are underpinnings of support that we need to provide", "research research equals jobs make no mistake about it", "research developing the prototypes that when tested and proven true then provide for new product lines", "there are jobs not yet on the radar spring that will be accompanying the manufacturing growth in this country", "and there are certainly all this clean room science now to accompany the theme of this region", "it's being offered at our community colleges and the like", "so it's a great feeling for manufacturer and we celebrate great growth in this region for manufacturing sake", "when i'm asked on the house floor to pinpoint the district that i represent on the map of the us i say first it's the confluence of the hudson and beau hawk rivers but then also my proud selling point we are the donor district to the erie canal which sparked an industrial revolution which gave birth to a westward movement", "and that was all driven by the development of mill towns that became the epicenters of invention and innovation that pioneer snip spirits still exists in our region", "and it's part of our dna", "and it's that spirit that will feed this resurgence of manufacturing", "and that will enable us to compete robustly on the international scene because we have the knowhow we have the intellect we have the research capacity we need to invest", "and i encourage my colleagues to support the make it in america america agenda", "and i'm just proud to stand here with colleagues from the elected ranks but those who serve our business community those who are involved with the chamber as to check over there all who support the manufacturing resurgence which is a powerful thing on our many many tours that we do routinely as representative for the district we're sharing best kept secrets about what's happening in manufacturing and our given area", "and it's always great to unveil some wonderful empowerment that's going on providing meaningful jobs with great backgrounds and great benefits so it's just great to join in this celebration", "i now have the distinct pleasure of introducing michael tucker who leads ceg our center for economic growth who does a great job in coordinating collaborating the efforts of the business community to communicate with the forces of government and their partners and private sector and academia to make certain that we have all the cylinders working to make certain that all the parts of the puzzle are there", "that all the pieces that spell success are advanced either in government as programs and budgeted areas or in partnership with exchange with our business community", "so please welcome our chief from the ceg michael tucker", "thank you congressman and thank you for your leadership in this resurgence of manufacturing in our industry clusters in our innovation economy here in the capital region we're certainly focused on the semiconductor industry nanotechnology clean energy biotechnology and information technology", "and if we are truly to have the opportunity to leverage the tremendous public private investment that's been made in our region over the last fifteen years we need to ensure that not only do we have manufacturing technology and advanced manufacturing jobs but that we have the full economy to support that aspect of our region's economy", "the center for economic growth is the region's eleven county economic development organization also serves as one of ten nice star designated regional technology development centers providing technical services to manufacturers and advanced technology companies in the region", "and we are part of a program run by nist at manufacturers extension partnership", "there are three hundred and twenty centers around the country to promote manufacturing", "and we serve in this region to be sure that the opportunities for companies at every level from the smallest two person manufacturer to general electric and global foundries and regeneron have the employees that they need", "today is part of a national effort national manufacturing day national manufacturing week", "and when you look at the programs that have been put together by the group organized by mayor mccarthy and our state elected representatives and all of you from business academia our science museum it's been a terrific opportunity to bring people together for a important project", "we focus at ceg on manufacturing by also serving as the facilitator for the chief executives network of manufacturers which is a seventy five member company or organization representing large and small manufacturers throughout the region", "we work closely with our economic development and chamber of commerce partners", "and we're very pleased to have chuck steiner here from the county of schenectady chamber but more importantly we're creating that pipeline from the k through twelve system through our community colleges and four year schools through our technology and advanced manufacturing companies", "and it is a great day in the capital region", "as the congressman said there's been a tremendous resurgence", "our employment numbers reflect the strong manufacturing base that has been rebuilt in the capital region", "so thank you all for your participation", "and this is a great day for manufacturing in america", "good afternoon i'm glenn tabolt president of sts steel and represent the manufacturing component of this committee", "i want to thank mayor mccarthy and the city council for spearheading this effort to promote a better understanding of the economic and social benefits of manufacturing", "when chad putman and the city the city of schenectady contacted me to sponsor a showing of the american made movie and then to become a member of the committee to build on the message of the movie i was honored to get involved", "the message of that movie and manufacturing day is not only important to me as a manufacturer but i believe it's also important to our country and local community", "there are many statistics as the congressman said showing the economic importance of manufacturing as a spurt of job growth", "and innovation manufacturing is a jobs multiplier", "every new manufacturing job creates at least forty six new jobs to support it", "and the manufacturing sector accounts for eighty of our country's exports and ninety of our patents in r and d spending", "but there's also another side to manufacturing", "there's an emotional side and that's important", "it's pride", "working as a team to solve the many challenges required to build complex products is rewarded when a completed sixty two ton lock gate for the erie canal or one hundred and forty foot plate girder bridge leaves our facility", "i see that pride in our employees whether it's a welder or cad technician engineer accountant everyone feels part of the team that contributed to that final product", "and when they drive around the area and they show their friends or families these structures they say i helped build that", "this concept of dream building manufacturing day supports is really meaningful", "seeing a product take shape as rewarding and the effort of this committee to bring that message to others in the community is also building something", "bridges connecting academic government and manufacturing sectors", "we at sts are particularly interested in sharing our experiences with the academic community to help them share with their students", "not only the economic opportunities offered by careers in manufacturing but this true satisfaction that comes from making something", "as part of manufacturing week we will open our doors on monday to the students of mohonasen school to show them what we built", "we have also purchased the american made movie curriculum for mohonasen school so they have a new tool to use in helping their students gain a better understanding of manufacturing", "we are pleased with this new relationship and we look forward to continued success and building a future in our community where young people find rewarding careers in manufacturing while fostering a vibrant and growing local and national economy", "and now to talk more about the exciting activities taking place upon us i would like to introduce mohonasen board of education president dominick cafarelli thank you", "good afternoon", "i'm very pleased to be here today to speak briefly about some exciting new programs at mohonasen high school", "recently we've experienced devastating budget cuts and we are facing increasing costs from our elected officials to find ways to become more efficient", "and all the while our education standards are rising skilled labor jobs are going unfilled and college remediation rates are very high", "thinking outside the box we've used our imagination to develop new programs that will give our students real world training that will prepare them for today's and tomorrow's jobs", "we've partnered with schenectady county community college capitol region both cities to bring to life the center for advanced technology at mohonasen to our community through this new and exciting academic collaboration high school college and adult students will be able to take advantage of worldclass high tech programs and environments that mirror the real world", "we are focused on 21st century skills like interviewing ethics and communications to make our students more marketable", "and we are researching equipment to make sure we have the tools that we need so that our students are learning the skills that they need", "the programs we will offer in the new center will include modern machining and welding alternative energy nanotechnology health science and athletic training gaming computer programming media arts and production", "another positive through our partnerships is that the cost of these programs will be shared", "and the support of these programs will be greater than otherwise would have been", "our main goal is to expose our students to a variety of college and career paths", "we believe the more opportunities the students have the better chance that they will have to be successful", "we are looking forward to working with our elected officials as we continue down this path", "make no mistake what we are doing is new and exciting", "and we are very excited about this", "i would like to thank my colleagues on the board of education our schools administration especially dr catherine spring our superintendent who is here today and all of our schools employees for their input and helping us develop this vision", "also our outside partners schenectady community college capitol region posties and our architectural firms csr but most important our mohonasen community", "we are very lucky to have community residents that see the value of this project in our region and what good it will do for years to come for our students thank you very much", "i would like to introduce from schenectady county community college mr matt grattan", "good afternoon everyone i'm pensioning for dr asalyn", "so she sends her condolences got torn into one of those last minute urgent meetings but schenectady county community colleges is really thrilled to be part of this week", "and i want to thank mayor mccarthy on behalf of the city and the community college is is immensely thrilled to be engaged in the education of our future workforce specifically in the area of manufacturing", "i've been at the community college now for about three years as the executive director of workforce development and prior to that i had a nineteen year career at the state department of labor", "i used to do a lot of occupational and industry analysis and you do not find any vibrant regional economy without a strong manufacturing base", "so this this day this week is so critical to be able to continue to educate young people and attract more youngsters into the world of manufacturing and into the career choices that are available in manufacturing", "and many know at the community college for years we were really known as a culinary and music school over the last few years some of the new programs that we've developed in alternative energy technology and nanoscale materials and storage battery and we're currently in development of a new a new program in mechatronics", "we're really at the cutting edge of some of the most involved in in demand occupational skills training that is necessary", "and with our partnership with mohonasen that dominic mentioned and superintendent spring we're very excited to be able to look at the facility that is and there's a rendering over there the facility that will be built at mohonasen", "and it's really just an exciting time to be engaged and continue to advance the the need for manufacturing workers", "and i want to put a quick plug in for the actual screening of the movie", "and i got a chance to see the initial screening that chad organized back in the spring at the ge theater the american made movie if you haven't seen it please come out and see it", "it is it really is a phenomenal piece", "and we're going to be showing that on thursday of next week october 9th at the community college in our soc eight one zero one lecture hall it's at six hundred and thirty pm", "and again in soc eight one zero one please come out and see it", "it really is a well done piece and i think you'll thoroughly thoroughly enjoy it", "so on behalf of the community college we are very happy to be a part of manufacturing week and it is now my distinct pleasure to introduce the senator over forty six district cecilia tkaczyk", "well it's great to be here", "thank you mayor mccarthy and chad for organizing today's event", "and we've heard a lot of really positive comments about manufacturing there right it's coming back but the jobs that people need to be prepared for are high skilled jobs", "so the manufacturing jobs we need people who can run million dollar machines", "so we're looking at a different type of person to be in those manufacturing jobs and education is key", "we need to make sure our kids are being given the opportunity and the skills to be able to get those new jobs that are being created through our investment in nanotechnology and through our investment in local manufacturing that we've heard about", "so engaging our businesses with the schools and with the community colleges is the cutting edge of the future", "and we're doing it right here in schenectady county", "so you guys are looking at the future and when you were faced with cuts in education you didn't just say you know we're going to cut back our educational program we're going to rethink it we're going to rethink how we're educating our kids and make sure that we're giving them the best opportunities", "so it is our our goal as your representatives in albany to make sure we're reducing the costs for manufacturing", "so we're supporting that infrastructure", "this year we reduced income taxes and energy use taxes for manufacturers we're doing what we can we need to do more but clearly we've got to support our economy and our schools and our local manufacturers", "so i'm really thrilled to hear about the synergy going on right here in schenectady county", "and i have one last thing to point out", "i mean there's there's many events to go to this week but one of the other things that it's important for us to understand is we all have choices", "people have choices when they purchase products", "even the state has choices of where to buy products from", "we should be doing more local purchasing and as consumers you know maybe we need to go out of our way to buy a local product", "we need to help buy and seek out those components", "and that's why manufacturing week is so important because you're letting us know tough travelers here and have great bags you know the gatherers makes great granola things like that so it's important to get the word out", "and i have i have a little announcement that i'm starting a new manufacturing process", "this is wool from my sheep that got processed at a local mill and batten kill fiber they turned it into yarn for me and they made it to the specs that newberry knitting company needs so that they can make mittens", "they're going to be making mittens from local wool processed at a local mill manufactured at a local company right here in your own backyard", "so yes we've lost manufacturing jobs but we need to make new connections and make sure that we're starting new ways of building up our economies and supporting each other", "so these mittens will be made locally", "hopefully they'll be a time for christmas", "all the all the proceeds are going to programs that assist victims of domestic violence because it's also domestic violence awareness month but it's i'm trying to tell a story", "we have resources here and connections that have been lost that we need to remake and support each other", "so when you're going out over the holidays buy something local and when you're go visit these businesses understand their challenges what they're working on and support them", "so i'm really happy to be here and to support all of you", "and this is an awesome week and thank you chad for giving us the opportunity to celebrate it", "and now we have a reception in the room one ten which is just down the hall and hopefully everyone will join us there again to have a round of applause for chad", "i'll just remind me too that the movie was shown in dc", "and if you haven't seen it it's really a great thing", "what time is that next thursday six thirty", "so if you will mark that on your calendar", "indistinct conversation by audience member it was a joy to welcome chad and others who produced the film into dc", "it was introduced that evening by minority web standing hoyer of maryland who is one of the chief architects of the make it in america agenda", "and it just great to be able to site again this district with all of its manufacturing history as the agent that really produced that film so i'm sure that you know so many took great pride and marion and peggy obviously sitting in that front row there are smiling and nodding approvingly it's it's great to know that we're producing great things here even films so good going"], "name": ["committeee_10_06_2014/committeee_10_06_2014/ManufacturingWeek_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "fashion_favorites_2.flac", "identifier": "fashion_favorites_2", "text_document_id": "fashion_favorites_2.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [12040, 12230, 10553, 6990, 14040, 12143, 2170, 6833, 6290, 12683, 10580, 7790, 5773, 15770, 5963, 8480, 6300, 5103, 6310, 6783, 4880, 3740, 5843, 4770, 10413, 8600, 7233, 7363, 7990, 2690, 3060, 12980, 8030, 7955, 8073, 5380, 7430, 5670, 8010, 6000, 5340, 4650, 8000, 4710, 7530, 9293, 7940, 6010, 7320, 9620, 8193, 5390, 15873, 7640, 7250, 8910, 8140, 15620, 6130, 12530, 5580, 10163, 8823, 6210, 4570, 12260, 10080, 5560, 4903, 4490, 4450, 7780, 7540, 8830, 5320, 9730, 5640, 5800, 4560, 4880, 4030, 11410, 6510, 7203, 8210, 7713, 8073, 7120, 11280, 6120, 8760, 5723, 5110, 2163, 4680, 6280, 8850, 7640, 7780, 11343, 4540, 7523, 8433, 5950, 12083, 6220, 6760, 4750, 4400, 8160, 7820, 2900, 21160, 8580, 14540, 8490, 10640, 5600, 18020, 9690, 2343], "label": ["the size alone of the four dupont rayon plants gives some idea of the amount of specialized equipment and scientific craftsmanship needed to produce each year millions of pounds of fine rayon yarn", "yarns that are converted by leading textile mills into fabrics that make garments draperies and countless other fine articles found in the apparel and home furnishing departments of stores all over america", "actually these buildings are not factories but giant laboratories where skilled technicians follow specifications as high as those required in small experimental equipment", "within these walls work craftsmen to whom quality is a creed with the most modern equipment obtainable", "the interior of this dupont cellulose acetate rayon plant reveals a maze of intricate elaborate apparatus a labyrinth of containers mixers and other machinery linked by a network of pipes and valves", "to the layman a picturesque puzzle of queerlooking objects of every shape and size but in expert hands precision instruments that play major roles in the production of fine rayon yarn", "here nothing is left to chance", "constant control of every process is maintained by accurate devices that check and record every operating factor", "continual checking and testing throughout every step of the way is one big factor in dupont quality", "these laboratories dot every building examine the product of each important process make sure that nothing passes on for further treatment until it measures up to the highest standards set and rigidly maintained", "manufacture of viscose process rayon begins by steeping or soaking sheets of cellulose the first step in changing them into the spinning solution as we saw in the laboratory", "but while the principle is the same as with the glass beaker here the operation of steeping is carried out with exacting precision", "just the right amount of cellulose is placed in each compartment of the specially designed steeping press", "the sodium hydroxide solution is checked repeatedly to be sure it's just right and the sheets are allowed to soften and soak for a definite predetermined length of time before an automatically operated hydraulic ram begins to squeeze out some of the liquid", "its pressure is carefully governed so that the sheets will weigh just so much more wet than when dry", "even the weather in this room as in all other operations is manmade perfectly suited at all times to this particular process", "every factor that can affect the ultimate quality of the rayon is scientifically controlled to a fine degree", "the soft pulpy sheets pour through chutes to the floor below to be shredded into crumb", "these ingenious shredders gently crumble the sheets pulling them apart but not grinding them", "this machine also uniformly distributes the liquid remaining in the cellulose so that its action is the same on every crumb", "on the floor below the crumbs are poured into steel cabinetlike containers", "here are the crumbs are stored for aging under constant temperature", "every container bears an accurate record of its contents so it may be individually checked and controlled", "accurate scientific analysis determines when the right degree of aging has been reached", "at the correct stage the crumbs are released from storage and passed onto the next treatment which we remember is the addition of a liquid that changes them in color from white to orange", "in actual manufacture this process is carried out in huge rotating churns that are individually cooled to a precise temperature", "the snowwhite cellulose enters the barrellike interior of the churn which contains a pipe through which carbon disulfide is fed", "this liquid flows into the churn rotating at a definite rate of speed perfectly blending with the crumbs which gradually darken in color", "here again close control of every factor is absolutely necessary if our cellulose is to make fine rayon yarn", "the speed of the machinery is closely regulated", "exact timing is highly important", "for proper air conditioning the air is completely changed twenty two times every hour when the process is finished the cellulose xanthate or orangecolored crumbs are emptied from the churn", "notice how greatly they've increased in size and darkened in color an indication that they are now ready to be converted into the spinning solution", "in the laboratory we carried out this step by dissolving the crumbs in a solution of water and dilute sodium hydroxide contained in a glass beaker", "in the plant the spinning solution is made in huge cylindrical mixing tanks in which exact proportions of the ingredients are accurately maintained", "each lot produced is thoroughly analyzed by control laboratories located right in the plant", "all dupont rayon yarn enjoys uniform high quality mainly because its quality is never taken for granted", "it is constantly tested and proved throughout every step of its scientific manufacture", "to ensure the highest possible degree of uniformity in the spinning solution and in the finished yarn the various lots are blended together", "each huge blending tank is equipped with positive stirring blades that thoroughly mix the solution", "at this point the desired degree of luster in the finished yarn is also permanently fixed", "if brilliance is wanted the blended solution is used without further treatment", "the addition of a special pigment or certain types of oil changes the solution so that the yarn it produces will be dull in appearance", "the amount of delusterant added determines a final degree of dullness in the finished yarn", "after blending the spinning solution is allowed to ripen for an exact period of time to bring it to just the right condition for spinning", "unless it is properly aged the yarn it produces will suffer in quality so during its stay in the aging tanks the solution is regularly tested and checked", "in precisionbuilt presses all foreign matter is completely removed by thorough filtering not once but again and again", "throughout every stage of manufacturing the purity of the spinning solution is constantly safeguarded", "each piece of equipment is constructed of metals specially selected to resist corrosion and contamination of the products being handled", "the pipelines valves tanks mixers and other machines are designed and built to make the purest and finest spinning solution that science can produce", "the only kind of spinning solution that measures up to dupont's high rigid specifications before it is approved for spinning into top quality rayon yarn", "the actual spinning of the solution is one of the most fascinating operations in all industry", "we saw previously how a thin stream of the solution changes to a coarse strand of crude rayon when dropped into a hardening bath but the crude rayon formed in this way is entirely unsuited for making cloth as can be readily seen by comparing it with true rayon yarn", "to make this yarn requires a speciallydesigned precisionbuilt apparatus that is an outstanding example of modern machinery", "the liquid passes through still one more filter before it emerges from minute openings and a tiny nozzle called a spinneret", "how fine are these openings well generally they range in size from five thousandths to two thousands of an inch the thickness of a human hair", "each hole forms an individual filament and there may be any number up to four hundred or more of them in a single thimblelike spinneret", "notice how the liquid solution coagulates when the spinneret is lowered into the spinning bath and expert hands skillfully leads the yarn through a series of guides up and around a rotating glass wheel then down through a funnel into a whirling pot which collects it", "each threadlike filament forms immediately as a spinning solution leaves the holes in the spinneret", "the speed of the glass wheel largely determines the thickness of the yarn although this characteristic also depends upon the size and number of the spinneret holes and the amount of spinning solution forced through them per minute", "the collecting pot rotates at a very high speed from six to ten thousand revolutions per minute", "the rotation twists the filaments together and the yarn is distributed alternately from top to bottom so that it will lie properly against the wall of the pot to form a symmetrical cake", "when removed from the pot the cake of rayon consists of about twenty nine yarn by weight and seventy one spinning bath liquid which must be removed", "at predetermined intervals a cake of fine quality yarn is removed from each one of hundreds of spinning machines", "in other plants dupont acetate rayon is spun by yet another method", "the spinning solution made from cellulose acetate by a different chemical process known as the cellulose acetate process is forced through tiny holes in a spinneret located about fifteen feet above the level of the floor", "when the solution passes through a column of warm air one ingredient acetone evaporates and the liquid solidifies to form slender filaments of rayon", "by the time they reach the bottom of the warm air column the filaments are perfectly dry", "here they are collected and guided out of the column to a device that winds the yard on bobbins", "the acetate rayon yarn as it comes from the spinning machine is a finished product", "after twisting it is ready for weaving or knitting into fine fabrics", "each bobbin is numbered for easy positive identification so that every bit of yarn can be traced back to the machine that made it", "all dupont viscoseprocessed rayon is also carefully marked for reference before passing on through the finishing operations", "repeated thorough washing with pure warm water gradually softens and cleanses the yarn and gives it a smooth pleasant feel", "much of the moisture's removed in a speciallydesigned machine called a centrifugal extractor", "each cake is placed in an individual chamber which spins like a top at extremely high speed throwing off water without harming the yarn's fine texture and construction", "final drying is accomplished in automatic tunnel ovens through which the yarn travels on conveyors", "an exact degree of heat is maintained so that the yarn is dried gently and slowly", "now the yarn is ready for winding into the form desired by the fabric manufacturer", "the bobbins are so designed that at each stage of the processing strain is eliminated", "this permits proper tension in twisting coning tubing and skeining", "from raw material to finished product all dupont rayon whether made by the viscose process or the cellulose acetate process is continually checked by a rigid testing routine", "a continuous check on winding tension is made by periodically testing the tension of the running yarn", "specimen cones are regularly picked at random and rewound on a special machine that permits thorough inspection of the continuous yarn", "a highlytrained operator expertly examines the rayon as it passes in front of a black background that easily shows up any imperfections", "still other precisionbuilt testing appliances make sure that the physical qualities of samples of every lot measure up to dupont's high standards", "testing for yardage is accurately accomplished by a winding reel that turns it in exact degree of speed and measures the yarn precisely", "measured specimens of known length are then weighed on a sensitive gram scale to ensure the uniformity of the yarn", "the amount of stretch or elongation of any textile material as well as its tensile strength are both of considerable importance because they affect the service ability and wear of the fabrics made from it", "this testing device precisely records the amount of twist per inch in any given specimen of yarn", "the construction of practically every type of fabric greatly depends on how the yarn is twisted so uniform twisting is highly important", "inspection of the yarn as it passes over a strong light within a dark room is still another dupont control", "by the expert eyes of skilled operators any imperfection is immediately detected", "nothing but perfection gets by", "but with this organization careful surface inspection isn't enough by any means", "thorough microscopic examination tells the additional story of what's beneath the surface of the yarn", "crosssections of samples from every lab produced are prepared by making tiny wax candles with a strip of yarn forming the wick in the center", "the candle is then accurately cut into paperthin slices each of which contains a tiny crosssection of yarn for its core", "when a slice is placed in a powerful microscope and the focus properly adjusted the structure of each tiny filament is plainly revealed", "to the untrained eye such a picture means nothing but to the dupont expert the size shape and arrangement of every fiber tell a definite story about the quality of the yarn being tested", "notice a difference between lustrous rayon and dull rayon as revealed by the microscope", "the tiny specks of pigment in the sample on the right are embedded within each individual fiber a permanent part of its basic structure", "by scientific preparation and analysis of photo micro graphs of specimens of yarn from every lot produced the quality of the yarn is constantly safeguarded", "even when it has passed every other test all dupont rayon is carefully checked again before shipping", "to you the skein inspection may appear hurried and haphazard but with these girls years of training and knowing just what to look for have made hand and eye super sensitive to any possible defect", "no single cone skein or tube leaves any plant without this final thorough checkup", "from beginning to end one hard and fast policy dictates and controls the outcome of every operation", "test and check check and test every step of the way", "from the raw materials to the finished products nothing is taken for granted", "the result of each process is scientifically analyzed by accurate factfinding equipment in the hands of experienced capable technicians", "it takes plenty of time skill painstaking care and effort to follow such a procedure in largescale production", "but that's the only way fine rayon is made", "yarns that make possible fabrics that lend new beauty and attractiveness to clothing and home furnishing countless articles of distinction to be found in fine shops and department stores from coast to coast smart dresses for every occasion for woman miss or child made of every conceivable type of material", "for lingerie and negligees there are satins french crepes flat crepes taffetas and knitted fabrics of every type", "fine menswear too gains variety and good looks through fabrics made of dupont rayon yarn underwear ties sweaters shirts pajamas hose slacks and tropical suitings for sportswear", "leading curtain departments everywhere feature rayon marquisettes voiles ninons and plain and novelty weaves", "draperies and bedspreads rich brocades brocatelles jacquards repps twills moirees satins damasks and plain weaves", "and for fine furniture dupont rayon provide outstanding upholstery fabrics", "for one thousand and one essential articles of daily use dupont rayon yarns insure beauty and long life backed by the symbol of rayon quality pure assurance that the yarns used are made to the highest standards of quality precision and honest careful craftsmanship", "rayon yarns that take a merited place beside every other important development that has added beauty luxury ease and comfort to our daily life", "rayon yarns by dupont"], "name": ["fashion_favorites_2/fashion_favorites_2/fashion_favorites_2_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "fashion_favorites_2/fashion_favorites_2/fashion_favorites_2_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "fashion_favorites_2/fashion_favorites_2/fashion_favorites_2_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "fashion_favorites_2/fashion_favorites_2/fashion_favorites_2_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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7833], "label": ["all right i think we'll get started with the information session part of the event", "welcome everybody my name's james booth", "i'm a volunteer with belmont drives electric", "i'm also a member of the belmont energy committee one of the partners in belmont drives electric", "so we're going to have a information session first and then the ride and drive event that test drives various vehicles out there", "next slide", "so to give just a quick overview of what we'll talk about tell you a little about what belmont drives electric is it's communitybased initiative", "talk about what are some of the reasons for why it makes sense to drive electric and particularly how it's good for the environment but it's also good for your wallet", "it's very affordable to do right now", "then we'll hear from klaus and addie two belmont residents who were very happy driving electric about their experience and try to answer some of the questions you might have around things like what are your options for charging electric vehicle and counter some popular misconceptions of things you might have heard and say how why they they love driving electric", "and answer any questions that you have", "so so to start off belmont drives electric is a community program for belmont residents it's sponsored by belmont light the belmont energy committee sustainable belmont and just a number of electric vehicle enthusiasts here in belmont who volunteering their time to the program", "so the goal of belmont drives electric is there are two goals", "one is to promote the adoption of electric vehicles in town and also to encourage owners of electric vehicles to charge them to charge smart", "charge them at times of day that work well for everybody", "and what belmont drives electric is doing is providing information through events like this and connecting people with deals at dealerships and test drives to help make the decision of how you can get behind the wheel of an electric vehicle", "so the first reason why the belmont energy committee became interested in electric vehicles is the environmental benefits that are associated with driving electric", "so to put this in context belmont has a climate action plan for trying to reduce our emissions of the greenhouse gases that drive climate change", "and this was adopted several years ago with a goal of reducing emissions eighty by two thousand and fifty", "we recently looked at how we've been doing on this over the last seven years or so from two thousand and seven to two thousand and fourteen", "and we're moving in the right direction but not nearly fast enough to the goal of an eighty reduction", "so we need to be doing more to meet the goals that as a town we've set ourselves in terms of reducing our carbon emissions", "and so when we looked at where belmont's carbon emissions come from it's clear that vehicles are a big part of the story", "so for the town as a whole if we look at what the different sources of co2 emissions are vehicles count for more than a third of emissions", "and if you just look at the residential sector at people's households there it's almost half of emissions", "so for many households your driving of your vehicle or vehicles accounts for more than half of your total carbon footprint", "so there's clearly a lot of potential", "we need to address the transportation sector to make a dent in our carbon output", "and this is where electric vehicles become you know very attractive to think about because the emissions associated with driving an electric vehicle are much lower than for a comparable gasoline powered vehicle", "typically less than a half", "so this chart shows for a sort of standard new midsized car you're producing about four hundred or so grams of co2 per mile driven", "whereas a battery electric car driving solely on battery is associated with less than half that amount of emissions", "and if you look at the emissions that are caused by the producing the electricity that you use to drive to charge the car", "and then there are plugin hybrid electric vehicles which have both a gas motor and and can be plugged in and driven on electric and those fall somewhere in between depending on how you drive them", "how much of the time you're driving in electric mode", "so if we compare the impact of switching your driving from gasoline to electricity it becomes one of the biggest single things you can do as a household to reduce your carbon footprint", "so depending on what car you're switching from you can be seeing a reduction of two or three tons a year of co2 emissions", "which is in the same sort of range as taking steps like switching your heating from natural gas to an electrically driven heat pump or a five kilowatt solar array", "so again it'll depend on the household but for many households simply changing what vehicle you're driving can be the single biggest carbon reduction step you can take", "to put this another way switching from driving a sort of a standard new car that gets twenty nine miles per gallon to an electric vehicle without changing your driving habits is equivalent to driving over six thousand fewer miles a year or it's about the equivalent of your entire electrical the emissions from all of the electricity you would use for other things", "there's some other benefits", "there's no local air pollution from tailpipe emissions", "some you know straight electric vehicles don't have a tail pipe", "so you have local improved air quality", "and as you'll hear out in the parking lot later reduce noise pollution since they're very quiet machines", "there's also sort of big picture considerations", "i mean there are these immediate benefits you'd have from from switching", "i should say the part of the reason why there's so many fewer emissions from driving electric is that the electricity grid in new england is relatively clean compared to other parts of the country", "we're not we don't have coal powered electricity generation", "so that's part of why there's such a big impact from from going electric", "but in the bigger picture we think of people think of large scale moving to driving electric is going to be an important part of bringing more renewable energy onto the grid", "so as as the new england grid has been getting lower and lower carbon emissions over the years so if that continues then it just makes driving electric that much greener", "but also as as thousands of people start to have cars with batteries plugged in this provides a way that intermittent renewables like solar and wind can can be more easily added into the system because they can store that electricity in in a fleet of electric vehicles", "so the one of the big motivations for belmont energy committees sustainable belmont and a lot of lot of people who buy them or lease them is the environmental benefits of driving electric", "but from a personal perspective for an ev driver another big appealing thing is the affordability right now", "and part of this is that it's a very affordable time to buy or lease an ev because of several incentives that are available", "so there's a state rebate of two thousand five hundred for electric vehicles", "if you buy an electric vehicle or if you enter into a threeyear lease and this is basically a check that the state will send you right away as soon as you've leased or bought your vehicle", "so you get that right up front", "there's also a federal tax credit of up to up to seven thousand five hundred that you can claim on your federal taxes at the end of the year", "and the third thing with in belmont drives electric with this program we've had a number of deals with dealerships where we've prearranged very competitive and transparent leasing deals", "so an example is something like the chevy volt where you can be leasing it for less than two hundred a month", "so it's really a very attractive option", "so it's a it's a very inexpensive time because of these incentives to buy or lease an electric vehicle", "but there's also savings to be had in operating it", "that it costs less to drive a mile on electric than it does to drive on gasoline", "so for comparison to a sort of typical midsized gasoline car if you're driving electric and charging in belmont with belmont lights rates you'd be paying the equivalent of about a one hundred and sixty five a gallon of gasoline", "so even with today's low gasoline prices electric works out to be cheaper on an operational basis", "and then beyond that belmont light is offering an incentive as part of the belmont drives electric program where for ev owners if they charge their cars over during the overnight period which is when we want them to be doing that then there's another fifteen incentive basically rebate off your electric bill on on the electricity use charging overnight", "so that brings down the cost of operations even further", "it's also worth mentioning this is if you charge at home with the electricity you're paying for but a lot of public charging stations are available now that many of which are free", "or a lot of people have the similarly charging at their workplace with no charge", "so there there are plenty of options out there to also get free charging which brings your costs further down", "another point that's worth mentioning is that service costs are much lower with electric vehicles because you don't have oil changes and spark plugs and so on", "it's just a much simpler machine and so you're you're not paying the routine maintenance that you do with a internal combustion engine", "okay", "some number crunching which don't want to get lost in but i'll just say looked at comparing say a a chevy volt to a chevy malibu", "so two similar cars from the same company", "and if you look at for example at leasing these as a as an approach then the cost per mile that you would get for leasing a volt when you figure the incentives and your fuel savings comes out to roughly around half the cost per mile of driving a malibu", "so putting it together basically electric vehicles are are good for the environment they're lowering our carbon carbon footprint and cost less to to buy and run", "and this is a nice analysis done by a lab a trancik lab at mit a nice tool that they have online called carboncountercom where they looked at a bunch of different vehicles and what the graph shows on the vertical axis it's the the carbon emissions for driving per mile of the vehicle and on the horizontal one it's the cost per mile of driving when you figure in the leasing or purchase costs or and the cost of fueling", "and so the higher as you go up the graph it's polluting more and as you go to the right it costs more", "and the yellow dots are a variety of electric vehicles", "so what it shows is really electric vehicles right now are both some of the cleanest and some of the cheapest vehicles to be driving", "so they they score well on both of those points", "so so the advantages and the reason belmont drives electric is excited about promoting this are both for the climate change implications and and that it can save belmont residents money", "i'm going to turn it over to klaus to talk about some of the issues around what is it like to drive electric including how do you charge these things so charging an electric pump is a delight relative to going to a gas station", "you know you go to the gas station", "sometimes you have you have to wait in line", "then you grab the grip and you oh you know smell your hands it's a carcinogen you know that maybe so that's not so fun either", "you a fuel you wait that's not how it works is an electric pump", "you come home you park you step outside you grab the pistol grip put it your done you walk inside", "so charging is really simple", "when you when you own an electric pump this is one of those things that you come to appreciate", "if you're like me and you travel for work whenever you have to get a rental car it's such a downer", "it's noisy it stinks", "and you have to go find a gas station somewhere", "electric plugs you have everywhere right so i think the the main issue to be aware of is if you live in a condo that might not apply", "so but if you have if you're in a detached home or you have a place at work where you can change the time you spent charge and the sort of inconvenience and smelliness and cost of is much better in an electric car", "next cue", "you can charge just like you plug in your toaster at home you can plug in your electric car that works great for almost every person with normal with normal driving habits you will add about four miles of range every hour", "so if you get home at seven leave at seven you have you know almost fifty miles of range and fewer than one in eight americans have have bigger trip to work and home than that", "if you do have a little longer trip then cars like the chevy volt which is able to make its own electricity from gas is something you can consider that will that will provide you with ample range", "if you want to charge a little faster we can go up to a level two", "that's the pistol part i was talking about", "and that will add up to twenty five miles of range of range per hour meaning that you can top off the car very quickly if you want to turn it around and go someplace", "many places have free charging at work in the workplaces it's all level two pretty much", "and i think we heard from the gentleman who works in the charging company that there's about three thousand electric vehicle chargers in massachusetts of which two thirds are free", "so lots of places you can charge for free", "and you probably haven't noticed because you're not looking for them", "but if you are in say lexington behind the restaurants there's a corner there there's four slots right there", "so while you're eating you can fill up your car for free", "we're putting in chargers here in belmont down by the clafin lot", "and you still have to pay for parking like everybody else but you don't have to pay for the electricity", "my work i don't pay for the electricity", "and so i haven't bought fuel since i mean at least a year", "i haven't spent a penny on gas", "so when you're looking at the the rates for the leasing which is sub two hundred you need you should subtract out of that whatever you spend on gas if you have workplace charging and most people who work in boston will have it", "so that's pretty great", "you can go even faster this what you call vc charging direct current charging and that can give you a ton amount in no time", "the tesla is the undisputed king and of that and that is in twenty minutes you get one hundred and fifty miles", "yeah in thirty minutes you get one hundred and seventy miles", "yeah depends on ten miles per minute basically but isn't it so ten miles a minute yeah you could say that", "it's up to three hundred miles three hundred and fifty miles", "so that wicked fast right so you can you can spend twenty minutes charging drive two hours and then spend twenty minutes charging", "and the chargers for teslas are typically next to a starbucks or a restaurant", "and and you should probably take a break every two hours anyways so so that's a good good thing", "there are in this situation of their own but but the boeing for instance that we have several versions of outside also has fast charging", "and will will give you fifty to seventy miles in the same in the same time", "on top of it's almost two hundred and fifty mile range that it comes with with if it has the battery filled up", "so charging options are there's lots of them but most of you will will be able to live very happily with the charger that comes with the car", "which you just pop into your garage", "next", "so charging stations if you want to buy a faster charging station they'll set you back anywhere from a couple of hundred bucks for for one that you can buy on ebay typically from a a car that was that was in an accident or something with it where you can buy the the charger and you can buy one outright new and that's like four hundred bucks to get", "you can spend up to about nine hundred if you want to get something really razzle dazzle that'll hook in to your solar panels on some", "so this is quite a bit of a choice for you now", "next", "public level two chargers this is a chargepoint charger they are the biggest vendor", "you need a card to swipe", "the cards you get just by by going to the website and asking for it", "and you swipe it it goes beep and releases the pistol brick which you then plop in", "it's all very fast", "and you can also use apple pay so i can use my phone", "oh i didn't know that", "oh yeah", "yeah there's cell networks like ev or is it ev connect and and you if you have a credit card with a chip in it you can use that too just to swipe that", "so so the so the convenience of electric charging is really high", "it's very easy to do and and most of the time it's free", "so at the airport for instance you see those they have dozens of them so you can get a we're getting them downtown", "yep we're getting them downtown when do those go on and then on lights place right probably may 1st", "and next", "and then there's all the different fast chargers", "these are amazing pieces of technology", "if you fast charge the first thing that'll happen is it'll say congratulations you're charging", "and it'll say you're putting on you know one hundred and ten amps", "i don't know if you if that if you know understand that but your house probably rarely draws more than ten", "so over a hundred amps is a really wicked amount of power that that they take off", "so this is this is pretty impressive technology", "and again tesla is the is the leader in that", "so you can is this quite the gambit", "but like i said most of you will be quite happy with just the charger that comes through the car", "next yes you have all sorts of flexibility", "you can program the cars to charge when it's cheap", "if you're in the concourse for instance you have cheaper than nighttime rates", "that's where belmont is moving to", "so that means that you'll have a significant discount on on the electricity", "and right now the the equivalent cost of a gallon of gas is like one hundred and fifty", "but with the nighttime rates it'll be the equivalent of getting seventy cents gallon seventy cent gas", "and importantly that's locked in", "so where the gas price fluctuates has been low for a while but it could go up the moment shots are fired in the middle east", "you know that's one of these connected things", "but that shouldn't ever impact the electricity prices because that's based on hydro and wind and solar and so on", "so by by having an electric car you you secure a cheap source of fuel for your car", "and you can program your all sorts of sophisticated ways", "you can ask it to be charged when the electricity prices is lowest but you can also for some charges you can ask it to charge when the power is the greenest", "if you buy a juice box charger which i have then you can ask it to do that and it'll automatically check the weather forecast and all sorts of other things so there's a lot of choices", "it's pretty cool if you and you get lots of data", "so if you're a data geek you will have a lot to play with", "yep next", "tons of chargers", "i think it comes out to about fifty thousand", "i think you could have stopped at three thousand chargers", "and they are two thirds a month free", "next", "these so logan i talk to all the time they find a flight and then hospitals public parking", "so you can find them on your phone", "if you download the plugshare charging", "how does that work with logan for example let's say you're going on a family vacation for a week", "yes", "and you go to this spot there's a charging thing you plug in your car and then you leave for a week", "and you just leave it there that's what a lot of people do but they actually have a regular one hundred and ten volt plugs", "so that's what i do", "i just pull in to them and then i just plug in there", "and that way i'm not up taking up are the spaces pretty wide there yes", "yep the other thing is that you can i think that's more but yes it's but it's not ideal you're right about that", "because the car has charged in hours and you're gone for days that's not ideal but usually it's not a problem to to find a spot where there's a plug", "hotels they all will always they will always let you charge", "i travel a lot for work", "and even if they don't officially have charging if you ask them at the reception they always are willing to to let you charge", "bring us a charging chord an extension chord", "next", "fast charging is coming", "this is going to be much more common in the future", "and what that means also is that hybrid's are probably gonna go away because you don't need them when you can when you can fill up the battery really fast", "my fiance just bought a volt and she lives basically at the far end of eighty four and the charging infrastructure that she that was there when she boughted in january was basically danbury and nothing in between there were a couple in hartford that were unreliable", "yeah", "five days before her car arrived at the dealership two new ones went in in hartford yeah one in manchester one in hartford ev goes and net worth is there popping up", "yeah everywhere", "and auburn is awesome you have the chilies they have two sets free", "level twos right and you'd have the ninety nine restaurant also they have two changers for free", "i mean the dc chargers", "the fast chargers yes okay", "that you use for your traveling long road trips", "that's also called level three", "okay next", "yep i think do you want to take the or shall i so electric cars are really fun to drive", "they they have violent acceleration", "they are very quite so it's it's a very luxurious feel to drive in them", "it's it's a fun car to to drive because they tend to be very hightech and all of that at a price point below twenty thousand", "i mean it's just the value to enjoyment", "price is just amazing i think", "and the what do you what what tends to detract from that is that people worry about running out of juice and that's really shouldn't be a concern", "one is if you get a pure electric car it's it's often a second car", "so you really just tootling around in the neighborhood", "and in that case that really on any any problems", "but if you wanna if you sometimes go farther if you have a cabin up in maine or something like that you can consider the costs that have a backup", "the golf has that the volt is what i have", "they they it comes with a gas tank and a generator so it can make its own gas", "and that bumps your range up to over four hundred miles", "so in my volt which is outside and you're welcome to try it out you can go from here to manhattan and back and not stop", "so if that not range enough for you right", "i don't know it's you can just fill it up and going another four hundred miles", "the volt can you just keep filling it up with gas yep yeah", "so it's a i drove to chicago and down to atlanta and all in one one time over a week", "so i just kept filling it up it killed my average but it most people over estimate the range that they need", "so they'll say things now but eighty miles doesn't work for me but actually eighty miles works for almost all", "so you can't transport a piano in your car either right so people shouldn't dimension their car needs to the unlikely event", "it's important to remember that if you just drive once a year well maybe you should get a rental because you will save so much money on that electric car that it will more than pay for the full rental car for your trip with your family", "then you get a convertible", "plug in hybrids the chevy volt love the chevy volt", "that gives you that takes totally takes away range anxiety", "next", "batteries a very reliable it's people tend to think of lithium batteries as the one they have in their phone where you have notable degradation in as short a time as year", "but there's if you look at cast iron and high tensile steel right that's mostly iron but it's totally different", "same with lithium batteries", "this i think is lithium cobalt hydrate i think it's and in the cars it's lithium phosphate heightened or something i forget lithium iron phosphate", "and they're very very different", "they're designed to be completely different", "the batteries in the electric car are not are not designed to be fully discharged", "so in the volt for instance in the firstgeneration volt you have a sixteen kilowatt hour battery that you're only allowed to use ten kilowatt in the middle of", "that way you are never fully charged or fully discharged which is hard on the battery", "in your cell phone you fully discharged the battery or more you fully charge it", "because it's a weight issue", "so you cannot take that experience and move it over", "batteries are very reliable", "they have sold over a hundred thousand chevy volts and they've never replaced a battery", "and because all the cars communicate back to gm the state of the battery and how much it's driving they're collecting all of that information in exchange for that you get free onstar subscription", "they know perfectly well how well that batteries are doing", "and there's not a single battery out of that that has ever had that's ever lost charge", "and some people have over a hundred thousand electric miles on it", "the record is one hundred and forty thousand electric miles on the volt", "and and so it's hard to do forty miles a day right yeah so yeah so so it's just these are very battery the battery is not going to have to be replaced", "it's a it's a total myth", "put fake news and the chevy's are particularly good in battery management the tesla's are very good too", "nissan leaf they you might have read that they had some issues in very hot states but they fixed that", "so it's so this these were caused in new mexico and they simply had they got cooked and that they did the batteries didn't like that", "but quick next", "we talked about the range", "you'll most new electric cars now have over a hundred miles", "next you have a lot of choice in electric car", "the the you can't get a convertible", "so that's say that's a limitation if that's your thing but you can get roomy cars like model tesla x can seat seven", "you can get the most of the other cars seat five", "but of compact cars there are hatchbacks those are they they have room for a lot of stuff in them you can get some that are you know very fast some that will park anywhere", "there's a chrysler pacifica that's just come out", "that's right", "and a plug in with an lg battery yes", "with a liquid thermal management just like the volt", "yep so so that has a that has a gas engine also as backup", "so there's this really a lot of range", "and vw has said that they're going to put out twenty five i think a new electric cars by the year two thousand and twenty five", "so they got busted on cheating", "everybody's cheating by the way not just vw but they sort of fessed up to it", "so they paying they're paying amends", "but the mercedes is coming off and they've just accelerated their program", "there's a lot on offer", "but even today you have some really great choices and we have them out on the parking lot and you should try to test drive them try out different kind of cars", "next", "oh winter time", "it's another sort of story", "people often ask how do go in winter well take the volt which is my car", "it has a four hundred pound battery that is moved sort of towards the back", "so it has almost perfect five thousand and fifty balance and sits nice and heavy they're great in snow", "and if you want to see that that inaction just go to youtube and google a chevy volt snow and that goes for the electric cars", "they are they tend to be very good in snow", "and also the moter is very light", "so when you spin with a gas car there's a lot of moving mass so it takes a while before the wheels slow down back to the speed they should have to give you a grip", "electric cars the motors have much less internal spinning mass and therefore they get traction faster", "so they're very good", "next", "yes this is true", "that one that was the point yep good next", "yeah so in the winter time you you all cars gas cars also reduce range you just don't notice it in the gas car", "however the it's it's not actually a big deal", "usually what you do is that you you can try to avoid heating the car while driving you heated before you leave and that really helps", "so drawing heat to to heat air takes a lot of power but you can do it while it's still plugged in", "so on the gas car it you shouldn't be idling for a long times before you go right", "that's that's not good for the environment", "but with an electric car it's the way to go", "so you have an excuse to to warm your make your car nice and toasty before you go because you're drawing straight from the you're drawing straight from the from the net yeah", "i'd like to go and tell the fact that if your car is in a garage in your house and closed you really can't turn on a gas that's right yeah", "car and fumigate your garage", "that's right", "whereas i have a timer or a remote control and i can start warming up the car half an hour before i leave yeah", "and to get into that toaster and yeah", "i won't turn on the heat for the rest of the time", "that's a good point yeah yeah that's right", "so you're not going to asphyxiate your family with an electric car", "okay", "next", "alright thank you", "hi i'm adam batista and i'm fortunate to have two teslas", "i have a model s and a model x", "that is actually a rental by the way someone mentioned about renting a car", "you could rent them", "i actually rented that in in la before i decided to get the model x", "and so so basically i've had a few of these talks but i'm gonna focus on like you know i think one of the advantages that tesla has is around the range and then the charging network", "so i drove my model s from boston to atlanta for a surprise work trip had to hit virginia north carolina and atlanta on this about fifteen day trip", "i did not pay for electricity once on the entire trip", "and so tesla has a pretty amazing network of superchargers", "so i was able to charge along the way", "and then when i stopped several hotels had either destination charging that was you know sponsored by tesla", "so it's teslas you know charging system for level two charging or they had or they had a you know like chargepoint chargers in the area", "even one hotel in virginia has a plug tesla's level two cheaper level two solution is to give you a nema one thousand four hundred and fifty plug which is what you'd see at sites", "you could charge at forty forty amps", "and one hotel actually had that", "let's just you know you could see the the panel box and someone probably either had a tesla or the guests said can you put this in and they just put it in and it's probably like forty bucks for them to do that work and that so i actually literally took the cable that's in my car and plugged it in", "when i woke up in the morning the car was fully charged and ready for my next next trip", "the the greatest advantage around the tesla itself around driving those long distances is autopilot", "and so i was able to actually at parts of my trip i drove i drove basically i came off the you know they came on to the highway set it to autopilot the car you know kept itself in the lane", "it you know kept itself at a distance away from other cars stayed at a certain speed as i set it it just like cruise control", "and then i was at one stretch i was on autopilot for about you know about ninety five of the time on the highway", "and then i turned it off to get back off the highway to charge it about two and a half hours later", "and so so it made that trip pretty amazing", "can i say sure", "the the volt and other cars out there i'm sure are not so sophisticated as the tesla but they still have a lot of the components", "so the speed sensitive cruise control i use that driving to work", "so so you set a speed and it keeps track of the distance to the car in front", "and when you know in washington rush hour traffic there's stop and go it'll stop the car and then with the cars move it starts the car and it stops it again", "you have to point the car to do it so that's the difference to the tesla", "but it's the electric cars tend to be really pretty sophisticated", "if if you like that kind of stuff", "right right yeah", "and there there's a difference in price points too", "the tesla's a little bit more expensive than the volt", "and so and it also has it's fully electric", "my the model s is a ninety kilowatt battery", "it has about two hundred and eighty miles range", "it's lost a little bit over the year i've had it but i've put over twenty thousand miles on it in the first year i've had it and so it lost about four of the range", "the model x i got that in december i'm sorry january", "and it hasn't really lost any range yet", "the i think that the best advantages of electric car we we discussed it before", "the fact you could charge at home i'm charging at home i don't think about fueling", "i have more than enough range for a given day", "you know i could heat the car", "the one i think i even sent the picture to you guys", "it was fourteen degrees i a detached garage not not heated", "it was fourteen degrees inside my garage", "i knew that cause my car told me that it was fourteen degrees in there", "and i was able to turn on the heater from you know basically my bed and and said okay warm up the car from me please", "i don't want to go into the car you know cold", "and it was able to do that", "got ready got downstairs car's nice and toasty you know pulling that off of the off the grid", "and then i moved on and so that's just a fantastic thing", "and and i think that even also another advantage just in general not even just around tesla is that if you are able to if you have your own home and you have the ability to put solar on your roof you now are you know basically even seeing realizing more savings over the long term", "i don't know if anybody has any questions but i know i could i could drone on about so many different things about tesla maybe be pointed into some questions that people may have", "one pedal driving you should talk about", "sure sure", "so regenerative breaking i don't think we mentioned that yet right so that's a good question", "so the tesla you know one of the biggest advantages of electric cars is that is regenerative breakings", "if you have a prius you might notice a little bit but you know if you put you take your foot off the pedal the car will slow down itself and it's basically the motor running in reverse to slow the car down", "tesla is very aggressive around that", "and they actually made it more aggressive over time with software updates", "i have both cars with dual motors", "and so when i take my foot off the pedal both motors are running in reverse", "so you can basically come to almost a complete stop", "it's like three miles an hour with with just the you're just one foot", "so i i rarely tap the brake", "therefore you don't have to replace the brakes as much right so the guy who has the record for the volt he has almost four hundred thousand miles on his volt and still has forty five left of the original brake pads", "and that's because you learn to to just drive with one foot", "and i know it's hard to describe but it is so nice and to just drive that way", "it's not an accelerator it's a go pedal", "yeah", "you're not jumping back and forth one pedal to the other if you're in slinky traffic it becomes intuitive and you stop thinking about it you just adjust your foot", "if your going thirty and then eighteen and then twenty five you're just lifting and pressing your foot so it's like you hit molasses you know", "yes yes", "it's very nice to and it's it's very it's instantaneous sorta response", "so it's like the car is connected to you", "like if you want it to slow down you let your foot off the pedal and it's slowing down", "it does take a little bit of getting used to and tesla i don't know if other evs have it it just has a setting that you could make it a little more lighter a load on you", "but but i but i after the first like day or two i i just you know i got completely used to driving re gen", "and you're putting energy back into the battery", "so you know and another advantage of prius's originally had right you're you're putting that energy back into the battery as a regenerating", "so one example i drove from in another rental tesla from frisco in colorado down to boulder", "and i at the point of it i was my efficiency they they measured it in watt hours per mile but it was negative", "i was actually gaining energy in my battery going down the hill because it was mostly downhill", "and so i was like you know basically keeping my foot somewhat on the pedal but it was putting energy back into the battery as i was going down which is i mean it's rare obviously i used a lot of energy to get up there in the first place but but but it does help you you know extend the you know your range of driving", "and so it's kinda kind of nice to be able to you know instead of you know when you break normally your that's all heat and light some light and sound a lot of that energy is going right back into the battery instead of just being used for all the other senses right no sorry yeah so so i could so i can warp any other questions so we have about five minutes okay do we actually want to do do anybody else want to talk can i just do a very quick one sure", "for those of you who can't afford teslas", "so the rest of us there was one thing i i disagree with in the first initial talk was he called us ev enthusiasts were just normal drivers because once you get into the car and you drive it that's when you become an enthusiast", "but before that you learn about it you educate yourself", "i looked at the numbers i have a volkswagen golf", "it gets about ninety miles range", "my daily commute including driving around town is about twenty five miles", "so i could go three days without plugging it in", "i plug it in the wall i don't have a fancy charter", "i've never had a fancy charger never been a problem", "i don't if i plan a trip i don't assume i'm going to have a charger when i get there", "so i keep my trips within ninety miles", "otherwise i take the old car or if you going to take a long trip rent a car but ninety of my driving is with the electric car", "i got the ten thousand off", "so it became a very reasonable priced car", "the brake pads are gonna last", "the one pedal driving is really fun", "i've always had a stick shift", "so i thought it was going to be really boring like an automatic but it's so much fun when you take your foot off and you're in re gen it's like downshifting to second gear and letting the clutch out and letting the engine slow you down", "the engine is slowing you down at the same time it's become a generator and it's jumping juice back into the battery", "you can watch it you can watch it recharge your battery as you slow down it's phenomenal", "it's so much fun to drive", "it's so practical", "and there are deals out there where you can get really good leasing options or really good buying options", "and the range anxiety is really not an issue", "and and i'm i'm talking about one of the lower end cars if you want to call it that but it's a volkswagen golf", "it's the same golf you see around town except it's all electric and you can come out and go for a ride in it", "you could also you know buy used leaf or egolf under ten thousand", "yeah really reasonably priced", "it's amazingly affordable", "so if you you need a second car just go around town", "it's almost a no brainer i mean it's you know you're really saving like thirty thousand miles in the car and you get one for seventy thousand just look on you know leaf or any other older evs", "and and and you did the amount of money you'll save it'll over the lifetime that you drive the car it'll probably pay for itself", "and so it's a pretty pretty pretty amazing set up so don't think of us as as as enthusiasts and geeks and all that and special people even though we are", "even though we've become that by by driving a car", "a year ago i knew nothing about these", "and i went out for a drive and said i gotta have one of these", "they're phenomenal", "they are they are for everybody", "they make a great first car for some for someone in college", "if you if you seize up because something's happening in front of you and you don't have the experience to deal with it the re gen actually is slowing the car down so it's going to minimize what kind of damage someone would cause in an accident", "just to and they are very safe", "klaus i think to close it it's just like daryl said you shouldn't buy an electric car because it's good for the environment and so on", "i don't think that should be anyone's primary motivation when you think about electric car you should but it because you won't get this as much fun for your dollar in any ordinary vehicle", "and would that i think we will close down", "so so becca do you want to let people know what the next step is in terms about how the sign up sheets on the side and which vehicles", "yeah sure so let's open it up to test drive", "if you guys are interested and want to hear each car is going to have its own sign in process", "also have the test drive right now", "but if for any reason you have to run off or something you 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{"audio_document_id": "Belmont_Election_040516.flac", "identifier": "snafuinfinityBelmont_Election_040516", "text_document_id": "Belmont_Election_040516.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [1210, 9210, 6490, 23220, 1170, 2010, 5960, 7170, 10010, 5980, 8850, 3280, 2320, 4073, 12840, 13520, 6028, 5136, 7003, 5053, 3145, 833, 12079, 3540, 23404, 983, 1183, 7290, 1290, 3010, 4760, 3340, 6550, 1030, 1153, 833, 3144, 3980, 18710, 23020, 2997, 5273, 3000, 2300, 1018, 1708, 833, 5701, 5910, 2491, 1839, 14130, 5000, 5833, 3730, 22690, 6326, 2019, 15931, 3384, 1180, 2120, 4260, 7400, 3183, 2580, 12350, 13910, 3010, 3220, 2940, 2280, 8940, 5280, 860, 4810, 18290, 10920, 10003, 9420, 26270, 2730, 7260, 1460, 9600, 4580, 3030, 16520, 5000, 4360, 3079, 3611, 4960, 13020, 7060, 3300, 12010, 1680, 4140, 3140, 8410, 9580, 5840, 4910, 22747, 2034, 9780, 6523, 7139, 2032, 2799, 1510, 2630, 7880, 5700, 15120, 9250, 7220, 3240, 13180, 11160, 4560, 4120, 4960, 12840, 3510, 833, 5077, 6100, 15110, 10690, 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12627, 2140, 2373, 5330, 19390, 27720, 8210, 833, 6873, 2980, 3850, 9700, 25280, 3420, 1302, 10777, 3744, 1956, 8532, 960, 15940, 5000, 833, 3790, 1666, 2479, 1730, 5020, 5000, 3603, 20130, 5690, 9290, 2010, 1340, 2490, 24263, 2767, 18750, 1650, 36990, 833, 833, 833, 1921, 1400, 2253, 2504, 966, 940, 4560, 1640, 2170, 7240, 4595, 3245, 7173, 10200, 3310, 2440, 7795, 1155, 7310, 1430, 1590, 3410, 1550, 1500, 1390, 17920, 2440, 9390, 3610, 5000, 2210, 1287, 5458, 2020, 8610, 9056, 6834, 2440, 6880, 7900, 11720, 3933, 13240, 14453, 12810, 888, 1832, 913, 2298, 4550, 3543, 2297, 1456, 1827, 4427, 20135, 833, 4412, 6227, 833, 2110, 3650, 1083, 3080, 3953, 2520, 2844, 1006, 833, 2097, 1030, 1962, 833, 2495, 1521, 2299, 3310, 14840, 4170, 8300, 4250, 3640], "label": ["good evening everyone", "and welcome to election belmont two thousand and sixteen my name is jack kelly and i'm a freelance reporter with the belmont citizen herald", "the polls have closed and i'll be a host tonight giving you election results", "joining me as analysts are belmont residents anne marie mahoney chairwoman of the capital budget committee a form of select woman and several other positions in belmont steven rosalez also a former selectman and a lawyer by trade and parker lutz an eighth grade student at the chenery school", "welcome to you all", "welcome thanks nice to be here", "today's ballot has several races with competing candidates seeking them", "these include the office of selectmen the school committee the housing authority and town meeting membership", "let's first turn to the selectmen race between incumbent and two term selectman mark paolillo and newcomer alexandra rubin", "anne marie how do you see this race turning out well i think it's an interesting race", "i think it's probably an uphill battle for alexandra as a very newcomer you know mark has lived in town for a long time", "he has served for a long time on many committees", "he's been on the board of selectmen for two terms", "i think it's hard to unseat a selectman with that kind of track record", "i think on the other hand though it's always nice to have new blood you know it's nice to have a race because you do get an opportunity to discuss the issues but i i guess i have to see mark coming out of this on top", "steve what what do you think i would have to agree i mean i've known you know it's a small town it's a lot of people but it's still a small town i've been here i don't know fifty fifty five years or so of my sixty years", "and i've known mark since high school so and that's way back in the seventies the the 1970s", "so the white guy here wants to do anything but you know he comes from a from a large family", "i have the race similarly handicapped if that's the right word i came from a large family", "so you know we've been in town you know a lot of people you know a lot of generations he's got", "so the name paolillo is known", "right", "the name rubin i suggest probably isn't as well known among people outside of her social group or the school or in the neighborhood that maybe that's just an an assumption i've met her once", "she's a wonderful woman very well very well spoken", "i give her a lot of give her a lot of props for for running i mean someone that admittedly says i've been twenty years in not in the community but in the greater community coming from summerville but you know she stuck her hat in the ring and you know it's it's not an easy thing to do having done it anne marie having done it for those that have done it win lose or draw i won one i lost one but it's it's it's", "a lot of work", "it's a lot of work and it's it's nerve wracking", "so i give credit to anybody who does it that being said you know i i've known mark for a long time", "i'm a supporter of his", "and so i'll disclose that that's no secret", "my name is out there and but you know he seems to have done the job", "at least he has the credentials he's he's done a lot of things he's been there", "he's been the sitting chairman he's i think he's done a good job on the financial analysis", "i don't agree with everything", "nobody agrees with everything", "right", "but you know by and large i think he leads with his gut", "i think he's a numbers guy understands how that works", "and the fact that he has having been in this town and been through a lot of races some for me some for other candidates you get to sorta know the groups and you get to sorta know the faces and the and the and the political philosophies and where they would tend to to to you know fall given to candidates", "and i think mark has put together quite a broad coalition of people that would be his natural s well what i call his natural supporters and then the the which would be maybe the more traditional belmonteans and then but he's put together the newcomers put together the pta mums he put together what i'll consider the more liberal at least to me a little bit what i'll call from the more liberal or progressive faction", "and he's really cobbled that together", "cause that list of endorsed names i mean people that have been around a long time", "it cuts across all the various constituents absolutely", "people that you would expect to be one or the other", "there's a lot of crosses", "and they're not he's pulled them in", "and he's pulled them", "so if the numbers then sort of bear that out if that has any type of indication i think he'll do well", "okay i i just feel it's important to mention that both of you uh both of us endorsed him", "are supporters of mark paolillo", "i've known him a long time and that's sort of what happened", "okay parker what's your take on this well um as you said that mark paolillo his name is better known in the or i think it's more known in the belmont community", "i haven't really heard about alexandra rubin until recently", "and i think with him being a belmotean i think that could help him out", "well i think the other piece too is that he's sort of done the groundwork", "he's come up from the grassroots level town meeting member traffic advisory committees kind of you know done your part at the lower levels and then worked your way up with that kind of experience to be on the board of selectmen having also served on the warrant committee mark and i have worked in a number of different capacities and he's got a wide background that really helps you when you step into that office", "yeah anne marie and steve you both served as select select select well we both have gray hair", "well i do too but i have", "but what do you think the two candidates are feeling tonight what did you feel on election oh it's well it's it's nervous but it's it's excitement there's there's a bit of relief that you know what the campaigning is over", "okay i don't have to i don't there's not coffees", "i don't have people yelling at me", "i don't have people writing bad letters about me", "the support letters there's you know you read the good the bad you're in the newspaper business", "some of it is it's infuriating it kicks you in the in the in the butt ego wise a little bit but at least it's okay", "it's it's everything i could do has been done", "and at least that's how i like to try to figure it out", "now it's up to the voters you sit at home we didn't have this instant technologies we have we'd go down and we'd have our people down at the town hall waiting for the paper ballots on those little punch sheets with the hanging chads to come in", "but that was nerve wracking and you know counting votes and literally counting the votes but but it's it's it's it really is excitement butterflies at least that's what i experienced", "and what what about you it was it was fun in its own way", "yes the day itself it's long you're tired", "you're cold you're hungry but it is exciting", "and in the end in the old days you're right", "you were in your house you weren't you know when your people were down at the town hall you were surrounded by your family and friends and party atmosphere win lose or draw", "it it was a lot of fun at the end and then you could just go to bed and sleep for a little bit", "yeah you got it", "yeah cause if you if you run the campaign it's it's exhausting for anybody okay", "parker you are the president at the chenery school i you told me earlier what was it like on the night the or the day that your election took place what was it like for you um i guess it's so we make speeches when we're uh doing well running", "and i think i'm just right after it you're kind of nervous about what they're going to do how you're going to turn out how the election is going to turn out", "and i think just it's nervous but it's you're enjoying it at the same time because you know that it could go either way", "the elections surely on the national level have changed markedly over the past couple of presidential election cycles", "do you see any changes in the way elections are run for selectman at least or any of the townwide offices in belmont anne marie i think you have access to media and communication in a way that is unprecedented even and we're not out of office that long the idea that you can do the robo calls that you've got the social media that you have everything online", "and so everything tends to be instant", "the good side of that is you can get a lot of information out pretty easily and you can get more detailed information", "it's not just bullet points", "it's the ability to explain these are my positions and this is why but you also are getting hit in the face with the opposition just as quickly", "okay we have some election results right now", "so let's turn to those here we are", "as you can see on the board board of selectmen three term mark paolillo has two thousand three hundred and thirty three votes and alexandra rubin one thousand and four uh forty that's seven of eight precincts reporting", "so that's a pretty hefty lead at this juncture", "i would think you could call that with one precinct left out there i mean i don't", "there's no way she's going to make up at nine hundred votes", "no because it was a very light turnout where you can see from these numbers very light", "right why do you think there was a we we did get some numbers earlier", "so why do you think there was a light turnout i personally because i sometimes work at the polls i think weather hurt with the snow yesterday but i think there's a little bit of voter fatigue because of the national level", "and i think that's trickled down and affected this particular election absent a question or an override", "people just aren't tuned in to selectmen school committee", "those kinds of raises unfortunately because this is where people can affect the most change the most easily and it's the biggest chunk of their tax dollar is local taxes", "people really should get more involved", "but i think that march 1st election took all the energy out of the voters", "yeah well it certainly was energetic", "i mean i certainly when i was voting today and i was i was about maybe nine hundred and thirty in the morning and it was at one hundred and forty at precinct eight down the windward school", "whereas the same time when i voted what a couple of march 1st march 1st month a month five weeks ago i was probably five hundred at that point in time", "and there were lines out the door and you had to wait all the booths were full and and there was a buzz", "good good there was a vibe and a buzz that it was really sleepy up there today", "so i don't know i don't i don't do the the the i don't set the dates for these things but you certainly could have a couple of them together and had then who knows what happens yeah my personal experience voting today there was not many people at the polling precinct three polling and there wasn't a lot of activity outside either so", "and there wasn't really much of a buzz overall", "i mean you had had two or three contested races but most of them probably uncontested i mean two candidates for both the two spots", "i mean the slipping race usually brings them out but i didn't really detect the usual", "i don't know that the passion that use just by you've just got a sign holders folk saturday morning i mean there was always competition", "right well door to door", "door to door maybe it's all underground", "maybe it's all social media", "maybe it's all facebook and twitter and that's what it does", "but i didn't see that that that real excitement for race to prompt people to get out", "just excuse me for a minute we have a one a a result from one precinct for school committee", "i'm told and so let's see i'll read that off for sabri murat beecher two hundred and forty two boats kimberly o'mahoney one hundred and ninety five and andrea presswich two hundred and forty six", "so andrea presswich has a slight lead for votes with one of eight precincts reporting at this juncture", "we don't know which one right i i don't it wasn't indicated up on the screen", "it was a prec precinct two i'm being told", "so does that mean anything precinct two you seem to know what each precinct might have a certain meaning or orientation what can you why don't you tell us about the various precincts anne marie", "each of the eight precincts really has a personality and you see that year after year in the voting no matter what it is candidates questions overrides", "each precinct has a personality and votes a certain way", "they also have a fairly predictable turnout number", "in this case you look at who lives in that precinct", "so i think you indicated that andrea does live in precinct two so this might be her home number whereas beecher lives in precinct one actually around the corner from me", "and i think o'mahoney lives in four", "okay", "so we should look at those three precinct numbers coming in to see how they tally", "how do you see the precincts it is true to a general extent", "i think that there's been some shifting but back when i ran you know i have more precinct eight guy that was probably more of the traditional i was probably the more traditional candidate than the less progressive candidate what they call now the liberal progressive candidate", "precinct one which is around the burbank and around that area is always sort of seen more of a progressive area if a conservative candidate did well in precinct one that voted pretty well", "eight was a heavy voting turnout precinct eight in the windbrook section that you always seem to get a pretty heavy turnout there racing seven down by oxford and marlborough street down that area you would think would have a bigger turnout but it always seemed to be relatively light", "and i couldn't quite figure it out maybe cause there was a lot of rental down that area", "i think it's a lot of rental housing", "w would that impact how you campaigned would you would you focus on certain precincts oh sure", "oh yeah absolutely", "you know the at least you know back in the back in the day it's been twenty years but it is what it is but you'd say you know we're going to try to you know precinct one probably wasn't my territory but if i can hold ground just dealing with me if you can just sort of tread water there and then come back in my home precinct to precinct date offset any of that you know that would be a strategy then get cause it's all down to people it all down to you know get the people out and get them to vote and dragging them to the pole", "let me interrupt for a moment steve we've got i think the final precinct is in for the board of selectmen and it looks like we have a definite winner in mark the incumbent mark paolillo to one thousand four hundred and thirty two votes versus a one thousand four hundred and twenty eight votes for the alexandra rubin", "that's with eight of eight precincts reporting", "so we do have a winner", "mark paolillo will serve his third term as selectman", "congratulations to mark", "i would think congratulations to mark and congratulations to alexandra who did at least in this man's opinion surprisingly well for someone who's been here for uh", "i'm surprised", "for two years i mean it shows that you know you hard work you can get some votes", "right", "and she obviously had a message that the board is going to listen to i would think", "and that that message was a transparency was one issue that she talked about", "and then i think particularly as regards to contracting and bidding with if i remember correctly mod comoderated a debate between mark and alexandra", "and so that seemed like what was her bread and butter issue", "i guess you have to ask the question though is it really a legitimate issue you know some of us who've been around the block would say you have to understand municipal bid laws", "you have to understand the process before you can start suggesting that we're not transparent", "you know i i guess because i'm still heavily involved", "i have a hard time with that", "knowing how hard people work to in fact be transparent and to be out there in the public", "excuse me we have the a winner marc paolillo on the phone", "whoa okay", "mark are you there oh excuse me mark congratulations are you there i'm here how are you mr rosalez well that's a this is jack kelly but steve rosalez", "i'm doing outstanding", "oh i didn't recognize the voice", "thank you very much jack", "okay congratulations mark", "tell us how you're feeling and what", "you know we ran a really hard campaign", "we ran as we ran as a as an underdog we really worked really hard for this campaign and just tonight was just the fruits of our labor and i i can't thank everyone enough in belmont for their support and their confidence in my ability to continue to serve", "i'm really blessed by the support that i've received across the entire political spectrum", "it was just incredible", "the outpouring of support so we're thrilled", "we worked really hard and you know work begins again", "yes well congratulations", "we're here with anne marie mahoney steve rosalez and parker lutz who's a student at the chenery school", "do any of you have questions for mark or congratulations i guess congratulations mark good job", "thank you anne marie i really appreciate it", "hey mark this is steve", "so you know good job so far", "let's see tomorrow's another day", "i have a pothole near to my street needs filling", "have a budget next thursday mark", "yeah", "you know we didn't want to take anything for granted and we really got the vote out", "i had worked harder at this campaign than i did in two thousand and ten", "and again you've seen the results tonight and i want to thank my my my opponent alexandra rubin who i think ran a a good campaign a gracious campaign", "she was a formidable challenger and i hope that she stays involved in town affairs that took a lot of courage to really step into a selectman's race it's really tough", "and i give her a lot of credit for stepping in and really waging what i thought was a very good campaign", "and i want to thank her supporters as well so my role now as a member of the board is to unite the community and we have a number of things that we need to focus on", "we've accomplished a lot over the last six years but the challenges remain", "and so i hope that ms rubin's supporters and the rest of the town join hands and we work together to you know to face those challenges", "briefly mark what were some what do you see as your key issues that you need to focus on now well i think you you know and i've said this and we had a lot of questions during the campaign but you know i think jack i think the the challenges were remained in terms of growth i mean i think our enrollment will continue to increase and because of that we'll continue to feel the fiscal pressure on our schools and in also the demand on town services", "so our challenges ahead is to the override helped us stabilize both school and town budgets but that work needs to continue", "we need to do everything we can to stretch out the utilization of the override funds", "we find ways to manage our costs more effectively more than we've done in the past and look for ways to deliver account services in a different way because we are faced with a a very important decision on our high school", "we can't let that enough grant application lasts", "we need to stand behind that as a community and put all of our efforts into that being a success for us", "and because of that capital need we really need to focus on the operating budget and and the growth that we're going to experience", "cause i think that enrollment will continue which projected to increase by twenty by two thousand and nineteen", "and that will continue to put pressure on our operating budget so that is a significant challenge for us", "and i think there are other issues in town that folks are really concerned about i mean i heard a lot on the campaign trail about the community path we absolutely need to solve that issue", "there's been too much divisiveness on that and i'm and frankly i'm just wanting to unite everyone behind a solution for that and let's just put down sort of the divisive tone and rhetoric and work together to solve that problem", "and there are many other issues as well", "we have major capital projects in reno's that's chair of the capital budget committee", "and we're faced with our capital needs are endless our major building projects remained", "and so we need to develop a sound realistic longterm plan for a major building projects going forward", "so like any other community nothing's nothing's been completely solved", "there are challenges ahead and we need to continue to focus our efforts there well congratulations again mark", "and please enjoy yourself tonight before you fix these potholes in the morning", "yeah absolutely", "well you know i got a i know i got a lot of grief on the campaign trail about our roads and you know frankly we have increased our investment but it still remains as an issue for our community", "not only our roads but our sidewalks", "and we have increased as anne marie knows", "right significantly", "and roads and sidewalks you know three hundred thousand on perpetuity on our roads and two hundred thousand on f it's still not enough", "and so we need to focus our efforts there", "belmont is becoming known as the as the community with bad roads and we need to we need to put that away and finally address it", "and i think we've done a good job over the last three years in doing that and we need to do more", "so steve your potholes hopefully will be fixed soon", "all right well again congratulations", "i'm sorry i can't be there in person i'm i'm here at the house", "we have a lot of folks here celebrating", "well well well deserved", "congratulations mark byebye", "thank you thanks", "and i think we have some more reporting from precinct two for the school committee the excuse me the housing authority and so let's get to that", "okay for the housing authority which is a threeyear term thomas cena olson has two hundred and eleven votes and paul richter one hundred and seventy nine", "and that's with one of eight precincts reporting", "w well anne marie and steve and parker what does the housing authority do they oversee the the public housing in the town and so when you look at well what i know as the the veterans village", "belmont village", "belmont village it was originally built as veterans preference housing after world war ii that is no longer the case but that's a big development that needs you know care upkeep", "i got a little more knowledge about it sitting on the cpa committee when the housing people came to the cpa and said we need money to upgrade our electrical systems and we're not getting enough from the state and we don't have enough here but we've got to fix the electrical systems in those units because it's a safety issue", "and so the authority oversees those kinds of things", "that one yes the belmont village and what i'll call sherman guidance which was i would i think originally for more of our senior citizens but that again has has changed in the composition", "and then the i don't know what'd they call it the waverley oaks apartments i guess right across from the the waverley oak spray park right", "the corner of mill street", "and there may be a smattering of some others but those are what it's so you know there's a lot of units there's a lot of management", "there's a lot of maintenance as people in there's people out there's people trying to get in there's lists you've got to maintain so it's you know it's qualifications it's", "so it's a it's a big job", "well there's a lot", "i wish i knew off the top of my head the number of units but it's it's", "it's big i don't know either", "it's many hundreds if not several thousand over spread out over a whole bunch of buildings with a whole bunch of their own individual problems", "right", "so it can be a it's a challenging position", "position and it's a very important position", "it's important in the town that those buildings be kept up", "were the two people who are running are you familiar with them i know tommy olson sort of socially", "i had the opportunity when i was holding a sign today to meet paul richter and had a brief conversation with him", "you know b both people i think brings something to the party and so i think whichever one is elected hopefully we'll have some positive influence on the board but certainly they will bring some energy and some new ideas i think that's important", "i think they both have passion and compassion for for their mission", "the overall mission they both i know thomas and olson tommy olson i'd known for many years and she's got a financial background", "and mr richter he lives in my neighborhood", "i haven't had the pleasure seen his names i've heard him", "i saw him at the debate i've seen him here on tv", "you know these nobody running has any lack of credentials everybody running for anything even town meeting brings something to the table", "right", "and and that's that's important because you know enough of these positions town meeting and town wide i've gone without opponents", "i get a lot out of debate unless of course i was the unopposed opponent which didn't happen to me", "well you you were a selectman from ninety five through ninety eight", "ninety five to ninety eight", "and what about you my mother refers to them as the golden years of belmont politics", "you have to love mothers", "absolutely", "that's right", "they always wrap with rectitude", "what about you you were", "i was on from two thousand to two thousand and four", "i actually left in the middle of my second term due to some family issues", "it just was the right thing to do at the time", "and before that she was", "twelve years on the school committee", "on the school committee", "which is probably even a more thankless job in many ways than the board of select", "do you uh just a question that came up in the debates for selectmen was alexandra rubin was saying that she works parttime and that would give her sufficient time and opportunity to work as selectman and mark of course is a fulltime cpa", "and i sure you're a fulltime lawyer et cetera", "how do you how do you manage both your responsibilities as selectman or any townwide office and your day job well you do you know when you when you you don't go in there with blinders on when you do this you know all the previous you've talked to the previous people that have held it and they all lie and say it doesn't cause it doesn't take much but they're all liars cause it does", "and but you know you make do", "at least when i was on the board i had the the the pleasure of serving with william monaghan who had been on the board for i don't know probably twenty years around that point time and knew what we were doing we had mel collector a very good town administrator", "bill skelly he was on the boards when i was the rookie", "these these these gentlemen you know they knew the ropes and we were a policymaking board", "the issue that i had the transition i've seen or the transformation that after i left seemed to be we met once a week we met probably for a couple of hours seven to nine we had our agenda we'd get our stuff at at at at friday thursday or friday we'd go through it", "we'd have our meeting and you hire good people much as what mark has been preaching", "i let the police chief do the policing", "i let the fire chief did i let the dpw there are problems", "we'd say there's problems and they'd fix them", "or we would deal with that but it didn't require i didn't tell them how to dig the hole", "i didn't tell them how to police it", "didn't tell them how many offices they needed to have way", "i left that to the professionals", "and and and you make do you have to the other thing you have the thing is that your phone is always on", "cell phones were probably in their infancy then i'm glad because they'd have but i'd have time", "you'd have a phone machine back in the nineties back in the old days but you know citizens they would call with potholes", "i made fun of mark but potholes barking dogs late nights granite curb", "granite curbing how come this one doesn't do my sidewalk i mean the constituent it's all local it's itp o'neill", "right", "and that's what you have to do", "you have to be accessible", "if you don't respond they may not like your answer", "there's only so many things you can do but you have to respond so you know that was that was a good thing and you know at ten at night it was a bad thing but it was so but you make do yeah", "you're in the arena you have to do that", "you know it's weekends it's nights", "and depending on how much you want to do meeting wise you were out a lot", "parker what about you how does your responsibilities as a president impact your other school activities your studies well i think i stay up later because homework and all that after but you really like i do work", "we do like the main thing what you need to do with other people in the meeting that we have and then we are we go into other groups and we do outside work that doesn't take the whole group so we're working with a couple of people but we do a lot of work outside of just our meeting just like so we're doing things that like aren't like you don't need the whole group to do", "so you're doing the big things that you need to do with the group and it's kind of budgeting your time the best possible way", "yeah", "let me interrupt for a moment we have some more results i think on the school committee which will be up on the board shortly", "here we are the school committee", "okay all eight precincts who reporting", "we have a winner and it looks like by a very small margin sabri oh excuse me this is two winners excuse me", "thank you sabri murat beecher and andrea presswich are the winners with one thousand nine hundred and fifty nine votes and one thousand nine hundred and thirty one votes respectively i think andrea presswich if i'm not mistaken is a astrophysicist and sabri beecher is a venture capitalist", "i'm i uh that's my understanding", "yeah", "so we have two people who have a very diverse and important capabilities and congratulations to both of them", "yeah do do you know either of those two", "not not not not personally no", "not personally just from what i read and the debates and but you know i'm very impressive i mean astrophysicist i mean they don't meet an astrophysicist everyday", "that's right", "she i was reading today that she i think runs a ten ten million program of nasa's chandra xray laboratory which is a satellite that tracks xrays and uh", "okay and i'm told also that morat beecher's house was", "this old house", "on this old house which was i think a restored uh victorian", "victorian actually it's around the corner from me", "they did a beautiful job with it's on school street", "they did a really lovely job", "i recall seeing joe cornish being interviewed by one of the this old house guys", "and he was very smooth and did belmont proud", "well congratulations to those school committee members", "and i'm hearing that we also have the housing authority finals so here it is we have one a three year term and that was won by thomas cena olson one thousand six hundred uh six hundred and eighty votes depaul richters one thousand five hundred and twenty three", "so congratulations to ms olson on her victory for in the housing authority", "and we talked about what that responsibility is earlier and that's all that's a the final on that", "well that's some nicer", "that's interesting yeah", "so we're moving along here on election night", "and i i i did want to get back to something you said steve earlier you mentioned that selectmen was in your time was a policy issue i did i are you suggesting that there's movement away from that that the the select men are getting too much involved in nuts and bolts issues and not stepping back", "well i can't speak for this particular board", "i know that mark paolillo wants envisions it as as i've heard him say even in this campaign that he wants to get back to making being a policy making board board of directors and have the the personnel of the various departments do the nuts and bolts that's their expertise", "right", "i can say that it's my impression and my observation that since i left the board in one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight that my hair was back and it was a lot thinner but people that came after me were more involved in the daytoday operations in policing and fire in dpw to the point where i thought it was meddling personally because my different strokes i didn't get elected reelected so you know that's to the victor go the spoils but but it it it's not their expertise it's not the job of the selectmen", "right", "hire good people", "you don't like they're not doing it", "you hire other people that's how you do it", "that's how it all sort of works", "i believe in sort of that vertical chain", "and wasn't sort of looking over the whole", "right", "how that was done", "so i just personally think that that's not the role of selectmen though the people obviously have differed", "i kind of speak for anne marie", "i have to say that i agree with steve", "and i think that but i i also agree that there was a transition and it was certainly taking place while i was there on the board", "and that was a piece of the tension on the board for a number of years", "i agree with steve that the board of selectmen should be a policy board", "you hire a town administrator you give that individual you know power and authority and you let them do their job", "and as you say police chief fire chief you know whoever it is we have a number of other you know boards whether elected or appointment like the board of health like the board of library trustees", "and they oversee their department", "board of selectmen should just be the policy board", "but i will say in the years that i was there we did get way too into how many police officers should we have and uh and what equipment they should have", "what equipment they should have", "and other issues i said granite curb when you were listing things because i spent more time on the board of selectmen on dogs and granite curb", "and none of that is policy", "barking dogs were the worst", "the barking dog but i went to court on barking dogs", "see i didn't have that joy", "yeah lucky me", "and so yes i agree", "and i think you've had different personalities and different styles on the board since then i think with someone like a ral ralph jones has tried to pull back to just be a policy board mark and i think that's a good thing to start getting away from that is not a good thing", "well that should be an issue that is watched", "and in the next with the selectmen we have some information of the seventeen thousand registered voters", "we have a twenty three voted", "three three thousand nine hundred approximately voted in today's election", "that's uh somewhat dispiriting", "yup it is", "where were we just the other day were we at seventy sixty seventy on match one i mean it was a it was an astounding number", "it was in the 60s it was a very high number", "right well so maybe there is something to your point about there was an overload you know that the presidential primaries", "and so people are thinking about other things now maybe there is something to that what what's your take on that parker how do you", "well i think a lot people are more informed with the presidential election", "you see it on the news a lot more", "and i think a lot of you get a lot of information not like you go on websites cnn it's all politics", "when you come like belmont you get information about these political people but you're not as well informed", "and i think people aren't trying they're not trying they want to make an educated vote and i think they're if they're not educated on someone they don't want to just vote for them to vote for them", "they want to know what that person's about and know about that person", "you've been lucky enough i think to be on a panel with two former select select people and have held other positions too", "do you think you'd like to get involved in local state federal politics at some juncture i think in the future that would be something i'd be interested in like to make it better", "didn't get back to as you said a p a policymaking system and the gov town government", "okay", "you will still have to fix up potholes when we call you know", "i know", "you know it's precinct one and i don't know how he did", "we had a person running for town meeting who was a freshman in college", "he was just graduated from uh belmont high school", "derek uh david", "oh i have it i have it here hold on", "i have it here", "i got actually have uh here it is daniel furnick", "daniel yes and he he was saying one of his concerns was that the the voice of youth is not being heard and that they have some very good ideas that that should be heard in the political forum", "town meeting absolutely", "he also mentioned something that he was quite concerned with", "one of his teachers was dismissed uh the high school last year i think", "at the high school yeah", "and i wasn't aware of that", "so but that was one of the catalyst for him seeking office", "i think so", "so i think you said earlier you were fourteen", "so in four more years you'll be able to vote and run for town meeting", "well i think we've come to the end", "he's got an excellent uh i'm sorry steve go ahead", "an excellent political name", "yes", "that'd look great on a parker lutz", "it's going to look good on a sign", "parker lutz yeah", "people will remember that name", "that's right vote lutz", "lots vote lutz vote lutz", "there you go there you go", "well i want to thank our analysts tonight", "starting from my far left parker lutz who up from chenery school steve rosalez say lawyer and former selectman for his commentary and insights and the same for anne marie mahoney", "also a former select woman and a holder of many positions", "yeah i want to also thank everyone who voted tonight and congratulations to all the winners and to the losers too", "it's important to put your name forward and get into the arena", "thanks very much and we'll see you next time"], "name": ["snafuinfinityBelmont_Election_040516/snafuinfinityBelmont_Election_040516/Belmont_Election_040516_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "snafuinfinityBelmont_Election_040516/snafuinfinityBelmont_Election_040516/Belmont_Election_040516_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "snafuinfinityBelmont_Election_040516/snafuinfinityBelmont_Election_040516/Belmont_Election_040516_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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5990, 9660, 3350, 3126, 833, 833, 833, 7535, 833, 6057, 8010, 3790, 833, 17777, 7330, 12130, 4096, 11944, 2420, 1060, 1997, 2016, 833, 1524, 833, 1927, 9790, 3910, 2600, 5280, 5140, 1200, 833, 1028, 833, 3339, 2947, 2443, 1350, 5755, 1845, 2570, 3343, 842, 9245, 833, 1087, 7060, 3460, 833, 2950, 1902, 1150, 1727, 2362, 2490, 3651, 939, 1516, 2851, 4207, 2016, 5700, 2463], "label": ["good evening and welcome to the june 18th two thousand and eighteen belmont municipal light board meeting", "i'm chair adam dash", "with me is vice chair mark paolillo", "good evening eat from high above", "good evening mark", "and with us also is a board member tom caputo", "good evening", "good evening tom", "and of course chris roy maria aidan from light department and we are here coming to you live from the town hall auditorium up on the stage", "and we're going to be having a couple of mess community announcements before we start", "one is belmont light will be at the farmer's market on thursday this thursday june 21st from two hundred to six hundred and thirty pm", "stop by and chat", "and also belmont drive's electric is having its next drive event to look at the electric cars and test drive them on june 24th from one hundred to four hundred at the chenery middle school", "so first item on the agenda presentation of quarter one two thousand and eighteen financials", "everyone should have an updated version of that", "and chris maria take it away", "please maria okay", "yeah so", "this is updated though right maria we got it at quarter one yeah it's just we tweaked a little bit of wording okay sure based on our meeting i just wanted to understand that", "with all that thank you okay so we run the first quarter financials and the results were presented to you in the memorandum and the attached balance sheet and pnl", "and i want to just guide you a little bit through it but basically were pretty stable", "there are no surprises in our financials for the first quarter", "our first quarter revenues increased by seventy thousand comparing to the last year first quarter results", "the sales skill of our sales revenues was eighty eight thousand or one higher", "and that's caused by the increase in kilowatt hour sales", "other revenues decreased by ten thousand due to decline in income associated with the wire recycling in eighteen because we don't do we do it as soon as we like replace the wire", "we recycle the old wire and it generates the other income", "purchase power expenses increased by almost seven hundred thousand at twenty two", "and that was the last there was a decrease in transmission cost due to the savings related to the kind of would from eversource and the elimination of eversource charges", "purchase power expenses increased by almost eighty four thousand or thirty seven", "and the significant increases related to increase in forward capacity market charges which like makes most of this amount", "can you explain what that is ahhh yeah i mean i guess i know you said there wasn't any surprises but this is a pretty significant increase", "it is", "we have a seven hundred thousand increase", "so am i adding this up correctly maria we have seven thousand plus no no no no", "seven hundred thousand plus eight three nine is a total of eight three nine", "no", "the power production expenses includes two line", "this is energy and transmission", "oh i see", "so the total", "so the transmission goes down but energy for what forward capacity market charges as a part of an energy charge it goes up significantly", "so total increase in power total increase is seven hundred", "purchase power", "what's the eight hundred and thirty nine eight hundred and thirty nine it's a component", "if you look into the beach", "yeah it's kind of tiny kind of hard to read four the last page", "is it seven hundred plus and eight hundred and thirty nine increase or is that just seven hundred", "it's just seven hundred in total", "yeah so nevertheless we rephrased it", "it looks like there is still a confusion on how it is formulated but do you want to", "no i'll just add", "so eight hundred and thirty nine is", "oh eight hundred and thirty nine is minus the one hundred and forty", "yes sir", "yes", "but through transmission cost savings but our power production expenses based on this for like adam asked", "i have no idea what fcm stands for", "that's what i'm asking yeah", "what is that yeah", "okay now i didn't understand the bulk numbers so thank you", "just got right back to the same place", "so that's fine so", "so that's a pretty significant increase", "yes", "so", "forward capacity market in a nutshell is basically the payments that we need to make that iso sets the rate", "so the each utility has a set load amount that they monitor and then they set the rates that they set aside a certain pool of money to make sure there's enough capacity on the system to support the regional network needs of iso", "and so in order to collect that money they have these forward capacity auctions and then the generators essentially bid in into this market", "this was kind of what was created through deregulation one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven", "and so they bid in the different market rates", "and so if you take a look at the graph", "yeah", "that's included in the packet", "there was a graph attached", "this graph it should be in the a package", "i'm not sure if it's attached to this no it's not attached to this package here", "probably as a separate", "yeah i did see that", "so what i did i just compared for with forward capacity market charges and transmission charges rates for the period starting two thousand and thirteen up to two thousand and twenty one", "and looking into the i can give you mine", "i have it i have it", "okay somewhere around here somewhere", "so if you look into the graph the blue line is exactly related to the forward capacity market", "is the fca is not the same thing as fcm fca is a charge fcm", "is the markets", "so for capacity fca is the auction within the market", "okay", "and so forward capacity auction number eight is somewhat of a controversial auction that generated this large price spike for every utility in the region", "and so there was some litigation involved with that where there was some market manipulation and threats by certain generators that said if you know this is all alleged this is not you know a ruling of any kind but basically what the sense was that there was some withholding of generation assets based on results of favorable market rules", "and so there's been some litigation to try and fix that but i think i don't know if there were settlements and this some of this ties together with the ene strategies agenda item later to be involved in some of this", "i mean is it you're showing on this chart that it's going to drop down it's going to drop", "and that's i think due in large part to there's some generation coming online", "there's folks that recognize fca was kind of an outlier and unacceptable in many ways", "and so we're looking at it to drop", "and so tying in with the ppta memo that's also included in the packet it's somewhat of a retroactive approach that we're looking to take but in many cases what we're hoping moving forward is if we monitor these markets more actively we can set a ppta price in advance", "and so cause everyone's in the same boat it's not an office", "is it just municipalities that are impacted by this chris every utility that's in iso new england", "and so we can implement a ppta knowing this is coming down the pike and kind of ramp into it", "so there isn't a rate shock", "but so instead in this particular case just because that wasn't an established initially we're looking at a ppta recommendation for discussion here yeah", "of two mils basically two tenths of a penny", "and so what we're hoping to do is leverage you mentioned the downward curve", "we're hoping to leverage the downward curve to keep a ppta in place even though prices go down we can kind of retroactively collect", "is this going to be something that we're going to experience the same number every quarter or is this like the worst quarter and then it goes down immediately or it's not going down until the next year", "it's an annual so it'd be going down next year", "so you're going to have this thirty seven increase every quarter for this year in this item i think that thirty", "yeah so but if the forecast was each quarter yes there would be thirty higher each quarter", "how is that not going to impact the rates by the end of the year well so that's a good question", "wait so part of this so with the ppta with the two tenths of a penny so if you maria included a calculation in that memo that shows for annual forecast i hope they don't mind i'm jumping in", "yeah yeah", "that's all right", "and so this annual forecast shows that thirty seven increase results in just under seven hundred thousand in additional costs that we would have to recover", "what are you looking at there is a second memo with a it's called purchase problem transmission adjustment rate review", "part of the package you gave us it should be probably it", "it looks like this", "oh that's it that's in the same", "alright", "i was looking for a different packet but it was in this one", "so if you follow so just to give you the noteworthy line items the most noteworthy the top line item that starts in green", "green is actuals", "and then once it turns white these are forecast and numbers or actual sales", "and so basically based on those figures you know we've forecast the expenses", "and so then the line forecast purchase power cost that's where you'd see this increased forward capacity market charge", "that's now incorporated into the model", "and then that gives you the resulting last line there prior period over under recovery following that through to the end", "that's six hundred and ninety one thousand", "for the year", "for the year", "and so that's what we're looking to collect over a certain amount of time", "and that that period of time and the collection amount is subject to the ppa ppta discussion", "so that 37ish percent or maybe a little lower is gonna be the number then", "correct is what you're saying", "correct", "for the year for the year", "not for the quarter correct", "it wouldn't it's not a compounding", "i was getting a little scared there", "yeah good to hear that", "i'm glad to hear that", "so again this is affecting every utility correct", "experiencing the same things there", "does that mean that most utilities will be changing their rates this year as a result or is this absorbed into budgets more easily or are we disproportionately impacted so the one i had involvement been involved with this and my prior experience we it's the same discussion except in advance", "so we ramped up rates in advance", "and so folks wouldn't notice it over eighteen months in anticipation of this year this would more be a retroactive implementation", "and we have a rates tab fund yes and we're planning to use it as well", "and the general speaking we are trying to change an approach to ppta in general and just use it like use a small collect a small amount of money every month instead of just charging the actual based on the calculations and either collect it and use rates stabilization fund to offset what is under collected throughout the year or transfer whatever we over collected through ppt to raise stabilization fund and just to keep the rate more less flat instead of changing ppt rate you know every few months as we used to do", "so i see you've got the so that you've got on the panel you've got three million in the rate stabilization reserve", "yes", "where in the budget is it showing that coming out i didn't see it", "like how much of it are you planning on using", "it's in the memo", "so what the memo says we are", "this is just quarter one", "yeah", "yeah it's just quarter one", "and it's you know like i'm truing up expenses and it changes we don't know how july would be and what would be the august like weather wise and how much we will collect and what would be the purchase power cause", "so it's it's like ask tonight", "what's the projection projected amount you'd be taken out of the stabilization fund right now we're looking into three hundred and then i need to discuss it with my auditors whether we will roll forward down the collection for this year to the next year and continue collecting certain amount of money through ppta or we will again offset from the rate stabilization fund", "and the amount would be i would say like another five hundred maybe less", "to make up for the six hundred and ninety to for recovery right the full six hundred and ninety one yes right", "yeah", "over and just expenses for the year", "correct", "so our net it's not expenses it's the net loss in net loss", "absolutely yeah", "and that's i'm sorry", "is that something that can be predicted this sort of rate i mean this cost of purchase power is that something sure the auction prices i'd have to double check", "i'd get ahead of that", "i believe the auction price the auction the forward capacity auctions are held two years out", "so you would know three years thank you", "three years in advance", "so we should know", "say another price by cap happens today we should be able to ramp up a rate stabilization fund now", "so you wouldn't see it three years from now", "yeah but to ramp up the rate stabilization fund that means you increase rates", "correct", "how does one take money out of the stabilization fund is it the same as with the town side where there's has to be a vote i think we've haven't we voted in that i haven't had to deal with taking money out of this rate stabilization fund", "i thought we drew that down to reserve that we or you or i think the board you presented to the board and we approved it you approved the transfer to rate stabilization fund", "is that something that on the one hundred and sixty four you do or", "that's my question", "i just want to know does it come back to us i don't know adam", "i'm asking you know i thought we had done it before but yeah", "not since i've been on the board for sure", "sure my thought was somewhat i guess it's indirect", "so we were bringing a recommendation of increasing to males", "so by association you would have to take the remaining under collection from", "so i guess by by approving a two mil increase subsequent to that it would be an approval", "i think when the money comes when you're looking to take the money out of the stabilization fund you probably should come to us for the vote", "sure i believe so yeah", "i guess we get an approval from you to transfer to rates tab", "so logically yeah", "i was just trying to find the procedure", "and we anyway we'll report on the like closer to the year end we will report on the results and the most recent drop and where we stand and what is like on the collection amount is and what we plan to do", "and if we decide to take like three hundred or six hundred from rates tab we'll come to you and we will tell you what our strategy would be", "alright well this is what the rate stabilization fund is for so i don't have a particular issue with using this as an unforeseen oddity", "when you look at the chart it's just a spike and there's what are you going to do but the it's not unique to us", "i guess the thing is going to be important to keep an eye on the quarterlies i guess for us", "when do you so we want to make sure we get to see the quarterlies in a timely fashion because keep track of this number in particular", "when do you think we'd have the q2 q2", "how many do we at the end to that i would say august", "that would be about the same as the timing from q1 to now", "alright", "but this should already be baked in for the rest of the year from an expense perspective", "the only uncertainty is how do the rest of the lines in the budget or is there some unpredictability it's no it's like there is a projection and there is an actual expense", "and sometimes it's the rates", "and i have to based on the reality it depends on the weather", "it depends on manufacturers", "and sometimes i have to adjust it", "that's the problem with this kind of like with purchase power expense it's in most cases not that predictable as you would wish to", "so what all right so what's been negotiated for clarity is the rate", "you don't quite know we quite know how much", "what sales will be or your demand will be absolutely", "hot summer could be a cold summer", "okay so there will be some very broad", "alright well", "is there anything else we need to do to protect ourselves against this affecting future auctions is there anything that can be done or is this just anyone who is in new england is dealing with the same exact thing with no ability to insulate yourself from", "sure in certain terms of rates as we take a really close look at how our rates are structured that's the piece that we have the least control over being the power supply component", "we can go out and secure capacity contracts to hedge against that you know an energy contracts but in terms of how iso forces us to incur oxen charges it's we just have to maintain that stabilization account to ride out the spikes that we have no control over", "buy over oil futures", "hedge", "hedge", "okay", "so is there anything else under the budget i mean that's probably the elephant in the room on that court q1 right yeah well there's some fluctuation between different type of expenses", "i don't know", "i can go through them if you wish but it's it's all here", "there's nothing unexpected", "it's just movement from one bucket to another", "i mean the light department's budget's not terribly difficult to figure out because you buy power and you sell power kind of what it is except for whatever spike like this it's something odd", "other than that it's relative", "but you're looking to increase the rate here at some point effective july 1st we are looking to purchase power and transmission adjustment which was waived for the first half of the year", "so you want to implement it as of july 1st", "as of july 1st and yes", "at two cents", "no not two cents", "two tenths", "two mil", "two tenths of a penny", "so that would generate about one hundred and twenty seven thousand in additional revenue for six months", "for the six months remaining in the year", "so that's the effect on the average bill the penny was about ten or ten to fifteen", "so you're you're looking at year per month per month", "yeah but this is much less", "so you're talking right", "so proportionally two bucks", "a couple of months", "yeah so the idea was to take the burden off the customers so it's not that noticeable how we would collect", "you'll recover some of it yes and would still re like you don't pull down from the rate stabilization fund for at the end of the year perhaps", "and you said roll maria you said to roll it forward to some of the underage to next year", "yeah but we will be like reviewing it closer to the end of the year", "is this the is this the budget i'm sorry the agenda item you want to take this up under i", "because you need to vote on the mils i would assume", "yes", "so i think because you're looking for a motion to set up a charge of one hundred and eight effective july 1st two thousand and eighteen no no no", "no two i think", "it's not", "yeah it's the different memo", "so it's like the second to last", "i'm reading the first memo alright", "hold on", "all right i see", "it's the motion would be to recommend setting the purchase power and transmission adjustment ppta to a rate of two effective july 1st two thousand and eighteen", "and keep the rate flat in the foreseeable future", "correct yeah", "second", "all in favor aye", "you're not asking for a vote on the rate stabilization fund", "we'll deal with that maybe in august or see where that sure", "where it leads us", "and we look at the fund balance quarterly so we can take it up at any quarter presentation", "okay", "just keeping an eye on the time but we'll", "it took longer than i expected but that was a big big thing", "discussion on current no charge led bulb distribution", "i was at the el back meeting last week with chris and this was discussed", "so you want to explain what this is sure", "so basically our one of our current programs is to give away a free bulb every time you pay your bill in person", "and so while it might necessarily seem trivial on the surface it actually is quite expensive and has a significant administrative burden on the folks the customer service folks", "and so one of the handouts you see in front of you just to for a point of reference that's the program details since its inception", "in one noteworthy point in two thousand and sixteen the partway through the year was changed to leds", "so that's why you'd see the jump from sixteen to seventeen", "and so last year in seventeen we're looking at almost sixteen thousand in a program", "and then through may of eighteen we're on track for more closer to seventeen thousand maybe eighteen thousand", "and so what we were looking to do is you know in terms of keeping the big picture in mind in terms of the cap goals and offering programs that encourage energy efficiency and you know on that theme", "it's really difficult if not impossible to track if you give out a bulb to someone who pays the bill in person we really don't have any idea if that has a positive impact to energy and there's no limit", "so if you have if your house is already fully led you could end up with a significant amount of surplus bulbs", "we've had a number of difficult customer exchanges around this program", "so i should mention that it does not include eliminating bulbs from events community events or audits", "and so the other thought behind that is we offer these audits", "and so we'd almost we'd prefer folks to get these bulbs through audits because then it also opens the door the other energy efficiency measures", "and do you know you're replacing no an incandescent bulb with an led instead of someone who's all led and it just comes every month to get a bulb to put it on ebay or something", "exactly", "and so", "i just save them up right yeah", "i mean that's the basics of this is because we went through this a lot at el back is that it's just the people that go to the window and pick it up who get the free bulb to pay their bill in person of which most people don't most people don't pay their bill in person", "and actually would encourage people to pay their bill remotely so they don't drive down to belmont light to get the free bulb", "and then incur the cost of actually office cost of handling payment right yes", "that is not the behavior we want to drive from a cost", "ordering bulbs storing bulbs yeah", "and el back's feeling was that stopping this particular program was worthwhile", "and then chris's idea was to take the savings and put it towards a program that would better meet the climate action plan goals that would be a little more rebates for heat pumps or rebates for something else that you know solar panels or whatever you know that was more directly related to the climate action plan and giving someone a free light bulb which at this and then this was to be fair when the program was started led bulbs were relatively new and we're trying to get people to actively switch over", "but i think at this point it's almost harder to find an incandescent light bulb", "i think people are switching over or have switched over", "so the need to get people on board with the new technology isn't really there", "and that was a consumer education campaign at the time right it's less around consumer education", "let's find the next thing we want to", "yes", "up at town day and at the farmer's market they'll still continue to give out the bulbs", "yeah actually what the public thing", "but it's not the same people that come every month and get bulb bulb bulb bulb bulb every month", "so i mean those are the i guess chris was asking whether we were okay with getting rid of that no the free led bulb hen you pay your bill in person program and have chris redirect the money to where he feels is important to achieve climate action plan goals", "so i guess that's the motion", "yes sir", "that sounds great", "did you get that it was kinda meandering", "three thousand bulbs right yes", "it's not three thousand people", "it's the same people coming back month after month", "and members of their family according to this", "and there's some people unfortunately have abused the program but that's not a thing but some people have", "i'm fine", "want to make a motion", "yeah so i move to eliminate the what's it called well it's whatever", "the bulb payment the bulb and a led bulb distribution program is currently for paying your bills in person", "paying your bills in person", "and to have chris find another climate action", "and you could use the savings for other sort of climate action plan initiatives", "second", "all in favor aye aye", "i never came down to get a bulb", "i didn't even know the program existed", "i don't pay it in person", "but discussion on possible membership and ene strategies", "this was also discussed at el back", "and this is about subscribing to the lobbying arm of energy new england regarding the programs and having a seat at the table and having a say and the way to get tech support", "and that it's about six hundred a month", "and it seemed like chris's it seemed like a really good idea", "and chris has suggested it as something that would be we could do and try it for a year", "and if it doesn't work we don't have there's no obstacle to it right so yeah", "there's a list of the other towns that do and it's like a lot of the ones we as a municipal light department hold ourselves as our peers", "if you look at the list here there's twenty three of them on here and they're the ones we all call our peers and they all are members", "so it might be good to have us", "what do they provide so page two yeah i saw that", "is the proposal", "and so basically they get to know us and they can provide you know materials for public education", "they can come to i believe there's two meetings in this proposal", "they can come to board meetings and talk about current events but most importantly they have a significant presence", "and so that gives us a point of contact into future events you know future programs on the state level to also you know inject our point of view on how these programs should be structured", "and you know and basically in the name of moving the belmont mission forward", "do you think this is a good you're recommending this to us i recommend definitely", "questions no two quick comments", "i guess one would be it sounds like the type of thing where if you ask for help you probably get it and you get to use the services", "and if you don't they're just happy to collect your six hundred bucks yes", "and not do anything", "so it sounds like it's one where just make sure that we're actively taking advantage of the benefit sure", "and i guess the second comment would be can we just make sure that we look in after a year and make sure it is valuable yep", "these are the types of line items that just make it year after year into a budget without anybody thinking about it", "is it just from this ene or are these are all isolated so just muni's and they actually did secure their first private client", "that's first energy on the list i believe it was i'm sorry mbta is on here if you look on the list as well", "so they had not for profit ene yes", "thank you", "i have a motion to join ene strategies so moved", "second", "all in favor aye", "aye", "preliminary discussion on moving from the cost of service study to rate design", "and this is do you know the cost of service study has been ongoing to try to get it where how our rates are where they're coming from and to then by knowing where the rates come from getting some sort of level of control or shifting around on them", "and the cost of service study is not in yet or at least we haven't seen it yet but the idea is to what the next is to talk about the next step going from the cost of service study when we get it to then going to rate design which means chris you want to take it from there dot dot dot", "so yes i mean given that there's been a lot of discussion around the cost of service study i wanted to just basically give a quick update on where we're at", "we did a week ago or time's flying maybe week and a half ago we had heard a presentation from utility financial services", "basically they went through the results they have now and then asked for more information", "and so but one of the important things that i learned having been my first interaction with this group in a belmont context is so their scope of work they've looked at basically the bucket of expenses that belmont light incurs and then evaluated how those expenses are incurred by each rate class", "and so the proposal they have before us takes the forecasted climate of the industry and compares it against our current expenditures as they are today", "and so there's two followup components that i think is for further discussion in the future being the rate design that comes from", "looking at how each rate class encouraged the expenses", "so do we want to increase costs for commercial over residential or industrial that type of discussion also", "it also highlights our ongoing internal effort to put together a financial book a budget book if you will that then looks at each ferc account to understand more about what goes into the bigger picture expenses that were injected into the cost of service study", "and so we look at it by each account number", "so we'll look at overhead expenses overhead infrastructure and expenses not necessarily overhead you know general plant but that to underground expenses you know crew where our crews spend their you know construction time and that theme", "and so that analysis you know will supplement the cost of service", "also with the cost of service study they provide a model that we can then manipulate based on our internal budgeting review", "and so those i think that was what i just was hoping to clarify in terms of the deliverables from the cost of service study being a model and how each rate class incurs the existing expenses and that further then highlights the need for us to look at internally how we're accounting for different activities", "so you'll get the cost of service study in and then you'll make recommendations to us about the next step i would assume correct", "questions is just sort of framing of where we're going to go when's the last time we have we ever done this i mean i don't remember", "we did when was that we had one cost of service study but it wasn't very detailed on in twelve thirteen", "and then i reviewed in fifteen when there were like high power costs", "they went up significantly and we had to review all our rates in order not to collect through ppt but collect through the rates because the initial projections were not done properly", "but this is a more detailed role by that's comprehensive", "and is it also something right", "agreed", "and so is it something that you do on a periodic basis i mean is it couple of years you do this kind of initiative or is that too difficult that's how it is supposed to do", "you're supposed to do every two to five years depending on how the you know the rates work and what is the industry what are the industry standards because the industry is changing a lot lately like last few years it changes a lot with all those like ev initiative right and everything", "so we need to look into probably more frequently than we used to yeah i thinks so that makes sense right", "i think that's the big point", "you know what in many cases outside of here out of this individual instance you know what was the rule of thumb in a utility twenty years ago it was rapidly changing to something new and dynamic as we implement storage", "and there's higher solar penetration and dg and sales decline", "and we look at how fixed costs you know what percentage of fixed costs are incurred through meter charges and things like that", "and so you know the evolution of the industry has prompted more frequent and closer look at how rates are designed", "just keep us informed when the cost of service study comes in", "you expect to have that for us when so our follow up is next week", "next week yeah", "we need to provide what we did", "i think it was july yeah", "it's hard to say", "i would say for if you're asking me for a conservative date i'll give you a i think august", "i think a more realistic dates so we can plan what we're doing right", "yeah i think august would probably be the best", "okay", "we'll look forward to seeing it", "discussion on future planning meetings with el back", "when i spoke with steve kioski the chair and this was discussed at the el back meeting about them wanting to come in and talk to us about what we feel their role is and sort of how to work together with them and sort of keeping the way we're meeting with the various department committee chairs in the selectman side", "it might be good to bring el back in and maybe at some point bring in the energy committee and roger colton as well to sort of discuss what we and provide some leadership as to what we want them to do because we've sort of went with chris coming in", "it's things are sort of going in a different direction with belmont light a bit", "and so everyone wants to make sure that a nothing falls through the cracks and b that we don't and this was more steve's issue with no one duplicates work", "so if we all make it clear i mean i've always had in my mind what i felt that el back's role was to sort of be technical advisors to us who are elected but have no electrical knowledge whatsoever but to be technical advisors because they do", "i don't even know what they're working on today", "i mean not to say that not working on something but it'd be helpful to meet with them and to talk those kinds of things", "yeah i've been going to the meetings", "and chris goes i know we have a liaison with you and but you know maybe you meet with them on a quarterly basis in the energy committee just to sort of level set in terms of some of the initiatives that they may be working on", "and the energy committee is beyond belmont light whereas el back is targeted just to this right", "circling back around with them you know at least quarterly no less than quarterly", "i think it makes a lot of sense", "we want to get them in", "i think we talked about july or august and this leads into the next item which is discussion of light board meeting schedule because i told them we didn't know when july or august would be however i wanted first of all i wanted to make sure we got the selectmen schedule for the rest of you're done hmm hmm", "which we've now done", "so you know what the finite dates would be if you want to piggyback it onto a selectman's meeting", "so the question then would be for the next rest of the year if we could maybe get while we're here dates for when we were", "el back's", "we have no more light board meetings scheduled for the rest of the year", "we'd schedule it back in the summer", "i scheduled through the end of june", "right", "this is the last one yep", "so now we have to schedule through the of the year", "are these potential dates i'm a tentative now adam on the 16th but i'm here for the rest of the meetings", "alright so", "we have to be out of town on the 16th", "there's the chart here", "so these are the meetings where the selectmen are meeting", "so", "i looked at all of these and that we already had these in our calendars right yup you should", "so other than the 16th every all the other meetings were fine for me", "the 30th is the night of the collins center presentation which is a joint meeting with the school committee and the warrant committee and the capital budget committee at the selectmen seven not to say we can't do this", "right", "i mean at five hundred and thirty as long as it still works for you", "yeah i guess the question was do we typically find we need the full ninety minutes or is it five hundred and forty five start or", "well it's six hundred and thirteen", "so tonight probably not but sometimes", "it's eleven am", "when did we meet one thousand one hundred am on the 21st what is that so the one thousand one hundred am on the 21st won't work for me", "what is that anyway", "we it was eight hundred am actually not one thousand one hundred am", "what was that for we couldn't come up with a second time", "oh that's right", "so we're doing it", "it's the 21st at eight hundred in the morning", "well no yeah", "so the board selectmen is at eight hundred in the morning and then this is going to be the follow on it", "oh i see gotcha", "that's why that was there", "but that one will be tough for me", "so i won't be able to make that", "you can't make the 21st", "that's no", "i can make the 21st bos meeting but i can't stay until noon", "right so i'm okay with everything other than the 16th so july 16th is no", "so would july 30th be a light board meeting sure", "okay", "the only thing i just wanted to add in there and just see what you'd like to do", "july 30th one of those rare things i could have a daughter on july 30th so i'm available until you're not", "to that that's not a good excuse at all", "oh the other thing is it's totally unpredictable and you and you want to make the meeting so", "i mean i prefer to be here adam but you know if you wanted to go ahead with the 16th is kind of tight as well", "i just", "no this isn't planned make plans today for me on travel", "maybe be having to be in california looking at flights and me have to fly out on the 16th", "i think we do the 30th and if you if something comes up you let us know we'll move it you know sure", "we have to move it we'll have to move it", "that's certainly a legitimate excuse chris", "i remember like my wife my second baby i had court in the morning and i'm like i can't call the court at like eleven o'clock at night so you can't just not show up either", "it's tough", "so august 20th or 27th which would be your preference for the light board meeting either is fine with me", "the 27th since it's thirty days later", "yeah that's fine", "and that would be that would be the 27th", "what's your preference for el back to bring him in on july 30th or august 27th well we should just if chris is going to be out perhaps out", "maybe august 27th alright", "so tell el back they were we told them it would be either the july or august and we gave them this chart", "so they knew it was one of four dates", "hmm hmm", "so unless steve says that they can't they don't have enough people because it's the last week in august or whatever", "but hmm hmm", "you know other than that yep", "we should be good", "and then", "i've seen since i can't be here on", "september 17th that would be the september light board meeting", "yep", "october one or fifteen i don't carry the one", "let's say fifteen because otherwise it's going to be too soon on the september meeting okay", "you got it november", "you want to just continue on november 19th yes december seventeen yup", "and then we'll deal with next year next year", "perfect", "so you get all that aidan so i guess the one final question i would have is if we think we need a full ninety minutes i can work to try to get out if", "you want to post them for six o'clock and see where we go we can do six o'clock and if we need to move them up because we have a particular large agenda we could in advance or if it bleeds into the selectmen's meeting it has happened before yeah", "i appreciate we close for six hundred to eight hundred", "many times", "many times", "so it's okay if we post them for six hundred and then the one on oh we're not nevermind", "so there only the night ones", "well you can always adjust them", "i mean if you think that it's going to be ninety minutes well what if", "you could always post the selectmen's meeting at seven hundred and thirty", "right well when we get the cost of service study for instance that's probably going to be a longer meeting", "yep", "el back i don't think there's going to be a longer meeting but it's going to take a little time", "and if the q2's come in august there's a big mess", "then we need to keep an eye on it", "so are you going to be okay you think august 27th maria for having the q2's that's another reason for going late in august", "make sure we get the q2's yep", "okay okay sounds good", "who's on the board meeting you're going to send out invites aidan alright", "we'll meet on the 16th you know i may not be here but you guys can talk well we've got the schedule we're good", "we want you", "okay okay", "alright cool", "we have minutes for may 22nd two thousand and eighteen and june 4th two thousand and eighteen both regular sessions", "i didn't see anything in them", "i thought they were pretty good", "so if anyone has any comments or anything we'll entertain a motion to approve so moved", "second", "all in favor aye aye", "aye", "anybody else have anything else six hundred and eighteen or so you're right", "forty five minutes to spare", "that would have been helpful to start at six hundred", "i'm sorry", "chris chris anything else i just reading the agenda again", "incinerator site oh update on solar plans feasibility proposed bhs incinerator site", "go ahead", "alright yeah i skipped that one", "but we're gonna be having a larger discussion at eight o'clock tonight on the incinerator", "do you want to talk about the incinerator and the solar i could just add my thought here", "for this line was just add how that could potentially tie in with the renewable energy credits", "basically in terms of i should state in terms of infrastructure standpoint belmont light could support really whatever you'd like to put there incinerator solar really anything", "it's you know line extensions system engineering", "that's just blankets you know ability to accept any technology that's there", "yeah i think at the selectmen meeting we talked with you about that about the just making sure to see if any of the ideas for like the incinerator site were just absolute financial or technical no go's exactly", "so we don't waste any time", "and if you're telling me that all of them are doable at some level then that's kind of all we need to know", "yes just preliminaries", "exactly", "any questions nope", "well how do we i guess the point is and i'm reading here their alternative three photovoltaic panels", "you're looking at that", "that's old though", "that's two thousand i know it's old", "that's my point", "i mean how do we look at this again as a possibility so basically what i talked to bruce about he i guess and certainly new information correct me if i'm wrong but they're conducting a more updated survey which will basically be used to create a grading plan in a new cap", "and so he said basically any design we're looking at for the cap on area b could accept a ground mounted array in terms of the solar application", "but to make that assessment we would need to know the grading plan because the grading", "okay that's helpful", "but i mean is there a financial aspects of this in which it's nonviable is there a line that needs to be sort of looked at from a threshold perspective to say this is viable financially this is not viable financially", "is that something we can get as well or update on how do we have we don't have a plan to look at right now", "right and i've always thought that you know solar array center that would be a nice thing to have", "sure", "not withstanding some of the other thoughts that we had we've been taught", "well it could be in conjunction with some of the other ones", "oh that's right", "yeah", "good point", "so it was one mega award enough", "i mean i had heard of you have to do five", "i mean anything the key i guess here and this is part of a past fractal survey for this site with the changing tax credit climate and the renewable energy climate", "we're looking at solar plus storage as the new way to make things financially viable", "hmm hmm", "historically speaking a ppa arrangement by itself was it enough because the developer could leverage those tax incentives but moving forward solar plus storage is you know looking to take the place of those disappearing tax credits", "so i think the short answer to your question is yes there is still financially viable", "it just might not be at solar alone", "we'd be looking at solar plus storage to make the numbers work", "can you explain again the rationale for adding storage why is that so the storage component now opens the door to peak shaving which is a cost saving measure on what we were talking about", "right before you couldn't store it i mean this six story technology was nascent right and it really didn't", "correct", "and belmont's peak in large part is at night yep", "as the solar production is tailing off", "it allows for participation and frequency markets which provide incentive payments for being available to stabilize the grid in times of need", "so that's another revenue stream", "and so those sources can then offset the declining tax incentives that used to be there", "this would be we would this would be a developer that would do this and we'd just have a purchase power agreement with that developer correct", "correct", "and it would always sell would it be just would it be exclusive to belmont that they could sell this storage stored in yep", "it would d", "we would have to make financially viable to them to develop the solar array", "exactly", "we'd have to have ppa in place", "we'd have to look at all of that right exactly", "there's just things things have changed so much that the two i was reading the two thousand and twelve report and i'm like is this kind of", "so i know that", "i agree on that", "so that's the reason i asked but we have to be in a situation where you know our purchasing of this power and the fact that we can now store it and like you say shade capacity would be a financially acceptable proposal for the community but it also enhances our climate action planning initiative as well", "exactly", "and i've always thought that we should do something there with this", "sure", "and that's somewhat ties in i won't go too far down this path", "but the rec treatment so each of these renewable energy facilities currently are associated with renewable energy credits", "and so that kind of complicates the discussion aside from just facility but there's also the environmental credits associated with it", "and so there are different classes and i just highlight them for discussion sake", "but class i recs tend to be solar and wind class ii recs are hydro and alternative recs call it class iii for ease of conversation", "those are your bio mass landfill gas", "anaerobic digester", "the digester", "and so those you know each of those have different environmental attributes associated with that", "and so when considering the cap goals you know what are the environmental attributes associated with the rec class", "because class iii is class iii because there are missions associated with those", "so different than solar where you know just sits there and there's no emissions", "the class iii recs alternative recs or such as biomass landfill gas or renewable because they you can regenerate the fuel but like landfill gas there's methane in there and you have to burn the methane to generate electricity", "so there are emissions so it gets a class iii", "it's kind of deemphasized but it has different properties where solar is variable and you know a landfill gas plant can be closer to base load where it's more predictable", "so", "okay", "so that's summary there", "we're going to have a lot of discussion about this shortly", "so anything else light board space no thank you", "travis bill whoever yes i want to just bring", "identify yourself for the record please", "yeah phil thayer", "i wanted to just bring to light board's attention that some resident experts in solar financing attended el back on thursday night and did some preliminary analysis that would be have direct bearing on the financial viability of a number of solar sites around town", "and i'd like the opportunity to ask one belmont resident jacob knowles to speak on that topic because i think it's relevant in given that the light board is not meeting again until the end of july and the timing is kind of tight", "alright jacob you have to identify yourself", "jacob knowles precinct four", "i think mr paolillo made a good point about that we need to look at the financial aspect of these topics and you know we've looked at it to a degree but what we're really asking for is that there's an important timeline here and an important investment and that investment may become less or somehow detrimentally affected if we don't act quickly", "it's something that we've been bringing up for a while now but i think that there's an opportunity now for the light board to potentially put together a short term a small working group between el back belmont light and the energy committee to just look at this financial question of solar in belmont for town sites", "and that seems like a wise move just to go through that process to see where it ultimately leads and get that expert input", "i know el back's working on it and chris", "that's a really good idea actually", "belmont light's working on it", "i don't know if", "i think if you bring together some individuals or just charge chris to sort of bring in these individuals", "i mean i think we really need to explore this in a very expeditious way you know i mean especially if we're starting to make decisions on these", "yeah we need to yeah i know we need to move on and make decisions on these things i just don't know whether it's you want to set up some formal structure or whether you know chris can reach out to the community", "yeah perhaps we just have already had that sort of network of", "you can call meetings with you and el back and jacob and like members of", "but you don't need us for that", "sure", "yeah that fine that's my recommendation", "i mean we get recommendations from you we get recommendations from el back and i hope you're reaching out to other people as well so it's not just this echo chamber", "i'm fine with that", "that's a great point but i just the reason why we're coming here tonight is we did go to the el back meeting", "and the feedback that we received was the light board really needs to say this is something we're interested in", "we give you the leeway to go ahead and proceed with this process", "we just said that", "yeah i mean i think they were saying i'm asking i think chime in if you like i personally am saying i think chris as a municipal light board general manager and it should bring in the expertise of el back and concerned citizens and making recommendations to us as el back should do when they make recommendations", "and they did because you were there and the more there's no monopoly and good ideas they're good ideas everywhere", "so i don't know if we need to set up if considering the time well i'm more concerned the timeframe because if you set up a formal committee and they have to post meetings and have minutes and have a whole big structure behind it it's going to slow everything down", "well el back meetings they have to post meetings right well not if just the chair of el back met with persons", "i think we can direct chris to sort of pursue this initiative expeditiously you know as you know jacob is indicated here and as you say adam he already has he's really plug and play with el back and with the energy committee", "and you go to the meetings as well", "so yeah", "we can certainly pursue i think that makes abundant sense", "and we had again when we were doing this", "i was going to general manager", "that's an important topic for this board", "right", "and we were doing it for the purchase power policy", "there were joint meetings with the general manager the energy committee el back i went and we had those meetings to come up with the purchase power policy", "so it's not like we haven't done these before within the existing structure", "i'm just more concerned the timing cause you're right about the timing", "and if we set some it's going to take and then they you know we have to appoint people formerly and elect a chair", "it's going to be two months before they can do anything and i'm just trying to find an ex i'm not against setting up a committee", "i'm just trying to meet your timeline", "yeah i agree", "i was just thinking of it", "you need to work through the general manager", "that was recommendation for a working group as opposed to appointing a committee", "but i rolled with the idea of working groups in general so long as chris", "so we just asked we just asked chris to sort of organize", "to organize to set that up", "i guess and then if you've if things haven't happened by our next meeting i should assume you will come and let us know", "and then if we have to do something more formal we will", "but i don't think chris has to be told twice to do it", "i think he's i think he would probably do it anyway to be honest with you", "i agree with that", "and another comment i would make chris is if at some point you deem a working group or committee more expeditious or useful to your execution please come to the light board and let us know", "yeah", "and we would probably take your recommendation", "if you want something more formal if this thing isn't working out for anybody you know i'm open yeah", "call us from the maternity ward and the 30th let us know how you're making out", "sounds good", "well that 30th meeting may end up moving around but we'll see", "give us a call as wife goes into labor", "will do", "sounds more than fair", "alright it is six hundred and thirty one", "so one hour not bad", "any other comments from the public seeing none i'll entertain a motion move to adjourn", "to adjourn", "so moved", "second all in favor aye", "nice job just as a programming note the board of selectmen will be meeting here at seven hundred pm", "in the town hall auditorium", "and then at eight hundred pm that meeting will turn into the public forum on post closure use of the incinerator site", "so please tune in or come on down thank 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{"audio_document_id": "7_26_2018_Forum_-_Democratic_Primary_for_US_Senator.flac", "identifier": "cctv17vt-7_26_2018_Forum_-_Democratic_Primary_for_US_Senator", "text_document_id": "7_26_2018_Forum_-_Democratic_Primary_for_US_Senator.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [5000, 22443, 2970, 5000, 9632, 13561, 3020, 4113, 25690, 7790, 16176, 833, 8039, 17840, 4908, 2917, 4045, 22040, 4355, 5000, 19210, 2480, 10730, 10325, 5000, 48665, 2332, 9701, 2987, 9900, 1810, 15610, 15410, 2030, 4988, 2835, 7947, 4390, 4820, 9195, 5055, 8181, 30645, 3514, 7559, 40241, 23660, 7810, 3610, 16380, 15510, 15980, 19407, 29003, 2370, 5000, 2967, 18770, 5143, 833, 8447, 12356, 5000, 18190, 8280, 1860, 31528, 9050, 1733, 833, 4990, 5000, 15247, 10084, 15929, 9253, 11286, 3775, 5000, 4300, 833, 1927, 6310, 6486, 12584, 10161, 16270, 17690, 3720, 3946, 3834, 6980, 3508, 5000, 8500, 10167, 4008, 12445, 3598, 3852, 5930, 4310, 7934, 12899, 1250, 1895, 4570, 11210, 2283, 8997, 5000, 7230, 8720, 2230, 5000, 3007, 833, 4067, 2336, 858, 2084, 858, 3804, 11900, 3881, 3895, 6265, 1008, 2667], "label": ["okay looked down at me as if i am nobody", "however this is a great opportunity for me to talk directly to vermont voters some of them that i met and some of them who has voted for me in absentee without even meeting me", "thank you all so very much", "from my heart i am truly blessed and i am very grateful", "and i am a democrat who is also an immigrant american", "i was born in nigeria and i got the amnesty from the congressional democrats the immigration act of one thousand nine hundred and eighty six", "i came to the united states right after high school", "i came here legally but i overstayed", "so when the congressional democrats signed the act of one thousand nine hundred and eighty six the immigration act i am the dreamer who today is a beneficiary and i really would like the same opportunity to be extended to the obama dreamer", "and president reagan actually signed the immigration law of one thousand nine hundred and eighty six", "so i'm indeed very grateful and from talking to some of the vermonters they really do like me and i hope they'll vote for me which is why i'm getting this opportunity to talk to you", "thank you", "and i hope you vote for me on august 14th in the democratic primary", "senator sanders who doesn't show up for the meeting just snubs me and as a matter of fact he is not the democrat and i don't know why he's not here to defend his seat", "i was ready to give him a debate of a lifetime", "however since he did not show up", "i'm very still thankful again", "and i believe in social security i believe because i am also an accountant who is able to calculate social security how much people will get paid when they retire", "i know i look young but i'm also a senior citizen", "i am fifty five years old and i would be turning fifty six", "also when i mention social security i also i also want to let the vermonters know that you can take every word that i say i will not promise what i am unable to deliver", "i will do what i promise", "i will not tell the college student they will get free education because i also went to college and i am an accountant", "i am a licensed insurance agent who also has a young daughter who is twenty one years old with a serious heart problem", "that brings me to the support of obamacare", "why i work tirelessly for president barack obama from whom i didn't get paid but i actually enjoyed servicing president obama as an activist because i really do understand as an insurance agent when i'm out in the atlanta area as an agent i wouldn't try to force insurance on anyone so that i can make commission and i really really do care about people and also because i have a daughter that has down syndrome and actually has an artificial valve", "i really do care about people", "and i would like to help using my experience as an accountant and also as an insurance agent to legislate for you", "i am also a law abiding citizen", "i have been in this country for as long as senator sanders has been a politician and he's not here to debate me", "i don't", "i was in fact talking to an elderly individual yesterday and is bernie's friend he loves bernie and i say oh i love him too but i do disagree with his politics", "i said what has bernie done for you what do i need to do to make you change your mind and the first thing out of his mind is that well bernie is helping me to get my social security", "i'm like no sir", "bernie is not helping you to get your social security", "you are paid", "and this gentleman that i was talking to is actually a retired attorney", "then i asked him sir you practice law", "you are an attorney he has also run for political office", "he told me he ran twice then i say senator sanders is not giving you anything that i couldn't do for you", "well folasade as we move along here we have a number of questions", "so we kind of want to get your opinion and your position on a number of these important topics", "so if we can move right along here i do want to ask if you are elected what is your first legislative priority that you would bring to the to the floor of the us congress well sir as i was talking to the elderly that i was talking to yesterday social security i wouldn't say is probably number two but i did not finish the conversation with the man", "and i would like to wrap it up in a minute", "so then i asked him i told him that you paid into your social security sir", "i am an accountant bernie is not helping you to do anything the only thing is if i am your senator i will make sure that the government or the system does not privatize your social security so that you don't ended up losing your money in the stock market like you know i am also an accountant then i said then he also said that bernie takes brings ambassadors here from sweden", "i'm like what does that got to do with you then he said i'm like the ambassadors that bernie is bringing then anyway i asked him how much have you donated to bernie so he talks about oh he was the one who mentioned that bernie buys him christmas dinner at the hilton", "so i'm like how much are you paying don't you think you are the one who is exactly paying for your own dinner", "i think he mentioned like he gives bernie a hundred", "then i'm like so at twentyfive dollars a plate to thirty a plate you are actually paying for your own dinner then he said well so if you give bernie one hundred you can buy for dinner christmas dinner", "he said he gives more than that that it's actuallythe money that he gives bernie every year he can actually buy he can buy ten dinners i'm like so you see", "and i can honestly look at vermonters faces no one from vermont from this state has donated a dime into my campaign and i am sade adeluola", "i will tirelessly work for you if i should become your us senator and i hope you just give me a chance in the primary so that i can have a chance too in the general election to win the general election", "also i would like to say my number one thing is immigration reform towards the end i wasn't happy with the democrats and i wasn't happy with president obama as swell my number one thing while i have supported president obama since two thousand and eight was the immigration reform and we didn't get that", "and we didn't get that", "so i was angry when the dreamers were let down", "so my one thing would be immigration", "hmm mmm because also i do not like the fact that children infants was separated from their mothers family people that is really really very sad", "you in fact i mean have benefited from the us immigration policy", "yes sir", "can you speak then a little bit more about how you feel that benefit that you've received should be open to to more people in the world", "see unlike senator bernie sanders who is not here to debate me i heard him saying all close the ice", "or what was the exact term close out the ice", "i would never say that because ice unless you really go through our system and the immigration system for a path to citizenship you will never understand the system", "it's easier for people to just judge and say get them out they don't belong here they are this", "they are this they are that", "what i really would like to do is i would like to i would never say close out the ice eradicate ice i would never say that because i know ice is part of the system for so many years and the situation now because congress hasn't done anything they refuse to do their jobs", "hmm mmm i was one of the activists who would yell at congresspeople and say do your jobs do your job", "and i also send out the email", "they didn't do anything", "so the already bad situation has been worsened as of today", "so eradicating ice is not the solution", "so i totally disagree with senator bernie sanders and some other democrats who are saying close out the ice that is not the solution because ice does so many other things other than", "they are the judicial system the immigration system the legal system so there are so many parts", "within the ice if somebody wants to become us citizen they have to go to immigration and customs enforcement as you are looking at me i was also an importer italian", "i was importing goods from italy austria switzerland and paris", "so i go through the immigration system mmm and i truly and also through i go through the customs the us customs", "so i really do understand how our system", "the same way i am also a tax preparer", "so i will never tell you closed out the irs", "okay", "i would never say that", "you had mentioned earlier in your opening comments folasade your concerns about health care", "you have a daughter who is using the health care system seriously let's say", "do you think healthcare is a right of every us citizen yes sir i believe health care it's not just a right", "it has to do with kindness and humanity which is the way that my mother died in nigeria", "hmm oh she died because she didn't have anyone to sign for her to have a csection during a preset induction a labor induction", "so healthcare is not just a right it has to do with humanity i know if you are a doctor and you see my daughter having a heart attack you will stop and help her you will not", "even care whether she has insurance", "you will not care whether she's a republican or democrat", "you will not care whether she is black or white", "you would care less whether she even has a supporting family like me", "you will do the right thing it is the right thing to do", "and we must help people in need healthcare is the most", "i really do support medicaid for the poor and medicare for the elders", "i do not believe we need to cut taxes for the upper one so that they would not pay their fair share", "i disagree with a lot of things that is going on", "and as an accountant and a licensed insurance agent and a mother to a very very fortunate angel who is lucky to be alive", "i am truly very thankful from my heart", "folasade we have come to almost the end of our show", "it goes so fast unfortunately so many areas that we have yet to cover", "so give us your closing statement here about your candidacy", "if there's any area of concern that we have yet to careto cover now would be the opportunity to uhto voice your", "well like i said i am truly so very very thankful for the wonderful opportunity that i have as an american", "i am very truly blessed", "i am your dreamer", "i am that child who was so pleased", "i am the person who is here deliberately to help the vermonters i've never been a politician", "i've never worked for the government", "i am a genuine democratic activist and i will want to ask every vermonter to give me a chance", "i promise never to serve more than two terms", "like i said if i am your us senator i will work for you tirelessly", "i will fight for you endlessly and i hope you vote for me on august the 14th", "thank you so very much", "and thanks to cctv for this great opportunity to be heard", "thank you very much i wish i can talk on", "thanks", "folasade adeluola a pleasure having you on the show this evening", "thank you for your candidacy", "thank you", "it takes great courage to put your name on a ballot", "thank you", "i'm matt kelly a reminder that here in the state of vermont we do have early voting", "you can go and cast your vote today if you'd like at your local town office and in the state of vermont if you aren't registered you can register up to and including election day", "for a complete list of upcoming candidate forums", "visit our website chseventeentv", "and for all of us here at town meeting television i'm matt kelly thank you for watching", "good night", "thank you so much mr kelly"], "name": ["cctv17vt-7_26_2018_Forum_-_Democratic_Primary_for_US_Senator/cctv17vt-7_26_2018_Forum_-_Democratic_Primary_for_US_Senator/7_26_2018_Forum_-_Democratic_Primary_for_US_Senator_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "gov.house.ogr.20100729.4.flac", "identifier": "gov.house.ogr.20100729.4", "text_document_id": "gov.house.ogr.20100729.4.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [5133, 6980, 1920, 5000, 5560, 3150, 10470, 2370, 2410, 4720, 4560, 1070, 910, 7860, 21980, 7640, 12710, 833, 2770, 6684, 2143, 840, 990, 2670, 1490, 11018, 1862, 4760, 2542, 3408, 3150, 2480, 26740, 4720, 37630, 4764, 16440, 26360, 14132, 7980, 9740, 7000, 19703, 6431, 17748, 14771, 1710, 2570, 4060, 18680, 14040, 13230, 2260, 6840, 10168, 5352, 1700, 4660, 15060, 22560, 9610, 11018, 7972, 1430, 12243, 38377, 4740, 9221, 6189, 9770, 7140, 6210, 5850, 15960, 12361, 2020, 6819, 4093, 34330, 22580, 1670, 7842, 3488, 32250, 9663, 20548, 3590, 20240, 5570, 27770, 3382, 2400, 30090, 35420, 6950, 19513, 19520, 8700, 28043, 5917, 7660, 1655, 9605, 21820, 4160, 4260, 5490, 6553, 6003, 27350, 8620, 10910, 13300, 13167, 3493, 1710, 14130, 12250, 20853, 3850, 4470, 35000, 880, 1426, 23494, 2710, 2827, 833, 13240, 6722, 10858, 7352, 8508, 8223, 6233, 7040, 1510, 833, 1927, 15122, 4573, 11870, 4756, 8704, 6610, 21420, 5000, 8300, 15532, 833, 2215, 13520, 13466, 2743, 16790, 3360, 8900, 3250, 833, 1287, 3600, 5223, 4543, 14423, 10260, 23680, 48780, 4580, 8950, 11730, 26730, 7420, 9690, 4163, 2007, 4151, 4202, 2933, 9070, 4800, 3150, 7770, 900, 4153, 1068, 833, 9709, 9950, 5393, 10914], "label": ["very poor in terms of meeting its obligations fulfilling its commitments", "so we remained skeptical about their behavior but there's a difference between iran and north korea", "it's important difference", "north korea's leaders don't seem to mind being isolated", "in fact they may believe that isolation is the only way their regime can survive", "iran has different priorities", "yes they want to move their nuclear ambitions forward but they also want to be seen as a respected member of the international community", "they need commerce they need trade", "they need to engage with the world", "we need to demonstrate to them that they can't have their cake and eat it too", "they can't have their nuclear ambitions and have these good relations with the west of the world", "thank you", "my time has expired", "mr chairman i would at least take this opportunity to say i agree with everything that mr einhorn said that they want to be respected", "i would strongly suggest that as we continue looking at future sanctions we recognize that as long as the world allows them to have embassies and allows them to hold our embassy hostage that we are in fact still allowing them to have normalized relationships with virtually every country on earth and then hope that sanctions will work", "i for one believe that we need to take another step and a step that is far greater than sanctions before we do military", "but i certainly believe we need to take another step and i would hope that as we continue looking at this program if we see it fail that you'll join with me in trying to find additional steps to give pressure against iran yield back mr chairman", "thank you very much", "and that's the reason why we are having this hearing and no question about it", "i now yield have five minutes to congresswoman marcy kaptur from the great state of ohio", "in fact my classmate", "that's right", "thank you mr chairman", "very much glad to see you with the gavel", "thank you gentlemen for appearing", "now mr glazer i just wanted to ask you to whom do you report at the us department of treasury who's your superior my direct superior is assistant secretary cohen and he in turn reports under secretary", "assistant secretary who david cohen", "david cohen what is his title assistant secretary for terrorist financing and financial crimes", "and he reports to under secretary levy", "he reports to who who under secretary stuart levy", "who's the under secretary for terrorism and financial intelligence", "thank you for placing that on the record", "let me just state that i believe history will show that since world war two us relations with iran have been very counterproductive to our own interests both in terms of the advancement of democratic ideals across at vast region along with the lack of promotion of competitive markets for goods sadly so much of that history i think will show that oil has been a great diversion for this country", "i keep thinking to one of the commandments in my own faith thou shall not covet thy neighbor's goods", "my question is how does one implement sanctions in a manner that supports us democratic ideals and reform across an undemocratic and mercantilist middle east i think one can argue geo strategically the impact of current sanctions actually operates against us long term interests because what we're seeing is a backfill of connectivity by us by china by russia you've admitted in your own testimony about the united arab emirates", "one can look at other countries so it must be really frustrating for you to enforce a sieve", "i also wanted to just place on the record for history sake back in one thousand nine hundred and fifty three since world war two really our relations with iran we never seem to get it right", "there was a coup back in the early 50s when someone by the name of mohammad masadeck was installed well he had actually taken office earlier in a democratic election but then in fifty three by spontaneous combustion he was removed and the shabby ran when we were growing up we remember him as children became head of that country", "but the reason the other guy was removed is he was actually trying to change attempting to reform the monopoly control that one company had over the extraction of oil from iran", "that company was called the anglo persian oil company commonly known now is bp bp", "so i think it's important for us to remember a little bit of history here and through the decade of the 50s 60s and 70s the shah's rule became more and more repressive", "and i can remember the slovak studying the slovak when i was in college and try and understand what that was all about", "then in seventy nine some of us lived through the uranian revolution when the shah was removed and us hostages were taken and the american people were just stunned by and terry anderson from my own state an abc reporter was taken in that and ultimately released thank god", "but then after all that happened and i remember those hostages were returned on the day ronald reagan became president", "remember that some of the people here remember that then for the next decade we enlisted iraqi dictator saddam hussein to do some dirty bidding and there was a terrible war between iran and iraq millions of people died", "so you know there's a little backdrop to why the iranians also looking through whatever lens they're looking through as they look at us and they look across that region might feel vulnerable", "i'm not defending their government", "i don't defend any government in that region", "and i certainly don't defend the economic interests that try to exploit all of them", "but in thinking about the future if in fact we are to be a democratic nation one that also believes in competitive markets the report from the gao shows that well guess who's got their fingers in the till over there halliburton that's the largest", "if you look at the amount of money that they get in government contracts halbert number of two hundred and seventy one billion well who's the big investor in halliburton the former vice president of our country for heaven's sake and their fingers aren't clean", "it seems like the public and private interests get all mixed up here and then we try to use these pitiful sanctions which look good on paper and look like we're really doing something but they don't do anything to promote our geo strategic interest", "they don't do anything to bring competitive markets", "they don't do anything to promote democracy in that part of the world and i feel sorry for our country", "i feel sorry for the road that we're on here because i don't see that it's really hurting iran in any way and it's certainly most importantly not advancing the cause of democracy", "so in terms of two way trade my question goes to the future generation", "that is a literate country", "there were hundreds of thousands of students demonstrating for democracy in that country", "and there were some sanctions that apparently made it very difficult for them to be able to communicate with the west with others in their efforts to try to democratize inside that country", "and my question is is the administration or has the administration taken action to allow hardware software and technology used to access the internet to be legally exported to iran how do we incentivize future democratic reforms and many of the literate people in that country that can connect to the rest of the world who are part of the future", "so they don't stub their toe and kill millions of more people as the last generation has done for fifty years in that extremely important but troubled region", "what are we doing to promote connectivity between those who love democracy thank you congresswoman", "we very much support you are a strong statement of support for human rights in iran", "very important to us", "it's also important that civil society in iran be able to express themselves that they have a free and secure access to the internet", "the state department has worked very closely with the treasury department to ensure that us sanctions do not prevent access to tools that allow the iranian people to freely access the internet state did a waiver recently that enabled treasury to publish a general license in the federal register in march that authorizes us companies to make a mass market personnel personal communications software available inside iran", "it's very important that they have the tools to communicate with one another", "and we're trying to make that possible and any adjustments in the sanctions laws that are necessary we will seek to adopt", "and you know i just wanted to say for the record finally mr chairman i represent many people who have immigrated from that part of the world", "and you know this they always have mine tv and he goes to the un and really doesn't do a very good job for his own people but the people that hold the real power in their country are many of the clerics", "and it just seems to me that anything we can do to bridge walls is extraordinarily important", "i don't share many of my colleagues views that the answer to everything is military action against any troubled state", "but i think that the power of literacy inside that country unlike afghanistan is so important", "anything one can can do to encourage kind of activity and enhance those individuals within that country that are trying to meet the rest of the world in a peaceful way is worth the effort", "and i would hope you would think hard about that in the important roles that you have and also on the oil side to promote competitiveness general woman's time has long expired", "thank you mr chairman", "i now recognize the gentleman from illinois counsel davis thank you very much mr chairman", "and let me thank you for calling the hearing", "mr einhorn let me ask you how does the state department measure success in terms of what would be a successful implementation of sanctions against iran could you share that with us i mean ultimately the measure of success is whether iran changes its behavior that's what we're looking for", "but intermediate steps involve putting a serious economic pressure on iran so that it recompute its calculation of costs and benefits and realizes that the future is gonna look bleaker and bleaker unless it alters its behavior and stops its defiance of the international community", "that's what we're looking for", "so one could reasonably say that the purpose of sanctions is to change behavior exactly", "of whoever it is that's being sanctioned", "let me ask are there any items that are not covered in terms of what are we trying to prevent iran from doing the combination of the law the congress recently gave to us as well as the recent security council resolution as well as our own executive authorities", "the combination of all those tools i think give us what we need to pursue an effective strategy of pressure against iran", "are there any items that we would say it's quite all right if we were to interact with those items getting into the country there are many items for humanitarian purposes to deal with medical problems", "they are all kinds of items that are legitimate", "we're not trying to interrupt legitimate trade certainly not trade having to do with humanitarian civilian kinds of uses but we're primarily going after their programs to acquire weapons of mass destruction advanced conventional weapons and other sensitive items", "we're not interested in a total embargo of iran that's not what we're trying to do", "so there is a humanitarian component to the sanctions especially as it relates to medicine or medical technology or life saving instruments or advances that may have been made in one country that have not necessarily been made in another country", "we're saying that it's quite all right that's right", "we don't intend to block around access to those", "let me ask and if each one of you perhaps would address this question our government has awarded more than one hundred and seven billion in contract payments grants and other benefits over the past decade to foreign and multinational american companies while they were doing business in iran", "is there any way that one could suggest that this is somewhat a conflict in terms of the overall purpose of sanctions to try and change the behavior of another nation i mean this development these interactions were what led to an important provision of the new comprehensive sanctions law", "i think it was ms newrider who spoke to that and can describe to you what's involved", "but the idea is to avoid such contractual arrangements between the united states government and these other entities that have dealings with iran especially dealings that are sanctioned under our law", "mr davis if i could add to that that connection is changing behavior and i'll give you the best example repsol which is a spanish conglomerate had based on our report over three hundred and forty three million in contracts with the us government they also were investors in iran's energy sector", "they have since made the decision this week to pull out of this ten billion south pars project and no longer invest in iran", "so we would agree though that this whole business of sanctions does have a level of complexity that sometimes the average citizen unless they take a good look may not fully understand what has taken place in relationship to them and what they've actually accomplished and what they have actually met absolutely", "and i would also note that one of the other decision that repsol made was the divestment clause is in the new app", "they were concerned about shareholders divesting in their firm as one of the reasons why they pulled out of the south pars project", "thank you very much", "and that too is one of the reasons mr chairman that i appreciate your calling this hearing to try and bring as much clarity to actions that are taken", "so that the only way we experience this democracy that my representative friend from ohio ms kaptur was talking about is that people be able to understand what it is that their government is doing what it is that the government is trying to do and what the intents are", "so i thank you again for the hearing and i yield back the balance of my time", "thank you very much for your participation as well", "i now yield to the gentlemen from california the ranking member counsel thank you chairman", "just to wrap up a little bit mr kristoff in the committee's report hopefully you've looked at it", "ms kaptur really sort of talked to this point when she said halliburton two hundred and seventy one billion", "first of all just for the record my understanding is the vicepresident when he became vicepresident relinquished all stock in the company most of which all of which was not by purchase but by having been an executive there and is not an investor but not withstanding her not understanding what an investor is perhaps halliburton's two hundred and seventy one billion that's how much they got for servicing the needs of the us government", "do you know what they received some subsidiary of halliburton received for participation with iran during that same period of time i don't know those details sir", "so actually how much money somebody got from the us isn't particularly important at all what's important is how important was iran to these subsidiaries", "and if i understand correctly under prior law a subsidiary wholly owned not wholly owned joint venture controlled uncontrolled to be honest they were allowed to do this", "so everything everything that's here about these companies prior to just a short period ago they were doing things that were perfectly routine legal and not prohibited by executive order or any other law", "the new act has changed that subsidiaries are now affected but previously they were not", "so back to the sanctions", "and i've been very tough on mr einhorn but i want to go to you based on past performance compliance with the past laws by companies seems to be reasonably good", "and the past service and sales and how everyone was circumventing they were simply complying with the law and using meaning their responsibility to their stockholders", "which haven't we with the last sanction regime changed the message to them relative to the best interest of their stockholders you've definitely changed the message i think particularly with the divestment clauses because they are hearing opportunities for shareholders to speak with their voices and pull out of those companies that continue to invest in iran", "well mr glazer i'm gonna close with just a question to you", "the us financial system is a relatively open system", "the chairman no we might agree but disagree with treasury on whether or not we've given you all the tools of transparency that we'd like you to have in the way of databases and so on but the us companies companies with a presence and reporting in the us wouldn't it be fair to say that you get good transparency on them and if they continue directly or indirectly to trade with iran you will be able to detect that and thus sanction them in other words you have those tools", "yes", "i think that we know what's going on", "in closing for me our partners in europe on this measure who have promised to do the same thing do they have the same tools and that's the final question if you answer that they do is are they going to use them as aggressively as you will look i've been at this for a few for a few years now", "i really do think they have come a long", "that's why you get to be here before us we ask for experts", "it's an honor", "i think europe has come a long way and i again this has been a very surprising six weeks the un went farther than i personally thought they would", "the eu went considerably farther than i would have predicted if you had asked me three months ago how far will the eu go", "in all sincerity i think there is a real growing international consensus that something needs to be done and that countries need to take responsibility", "does that mean we're not gonna have issues to work out with particular european countries i was talking to mr van hollen about one of those", "there's gonna continue to be issues but i do think europe is serious about this and i think they've been a good partner", "thank you mr einhorn the last word goes to you as long as you include in it letting us know how our former colleague ms tauscher is doing", "i think look you know ellen tauscher she's got a lot of spirit a lot of fight a lot of grit", "you know she's gonna have a rough patch but she's gonna come out of it fine and i'll send to her your best wishes", "thank you very much please do", "thank you for your", "please associate me with that as well", "let's close with you mr glazer and i guess mr einhorn and both first of all gao has identified forty one foreign firms with commercial activity in iran", "do you agree with that forty one the number", "this is really something that is outside of the treasury department's jurisdiction we target with our particular authorities entities that are engaged in illicit activity", "be it proliferation or terrorism", "the treasury department is not keeping track of foreign companies that are doing business in iran as a broad matter that'd be for the commerce department or others", "mr einhorn do you agree with the numbers i'm sorry could you repeat that mr chairman", "gao has identified forty one foreign firms with commercial activity in iran's energy sector first of all do you agree with the number we examined all of those cases very carefully and as i mentioned before we winnowed that number down to less than ten", "these are a number of entities that are very problematic", "i have to say that a number of them have been engaged in sanctionable activity", "but as i also said before we're reaching the conclusion of this process it's out for interagency views and secretary clinton will make her decisions on this in a short period ahead", "yes", "what can you do about these companies even the ten that you", "well it's important to recognize that a number of the entities in this small list have already stopped or are in the process of stopping their engagement in iran petroleum sector", "so i think what we found is the law is working the threat of penalties has encouraged these countries to get out of the business of dealing with iran", "so it's quite effective", "let me just close by is there anything more that we need to do on this side of the aisle in terms of from a legislative standpoint in order to make this effective i think you've just given us a big and important tool to tackle this threat", "and you did that only less than four weeks ago", "we have to work hard within the administration to figure out how best to implement this law to maximum effect", "so for the time being we have nothing else to request of you", "thank you", "i agree with mr einhorn", "i think that you just passed a very important new piece of legislation", "we're in the process of implementing that and i think it's going to have a powerful impact", "chairman we're proceeding to implement the rule required by the act and we will do so", "i would encourage vigorous and continuous oversight on the part of the congress to ensure not just that the old sanctions are being enforced which many had not been but the host of new sanctions that are on the plates of the executive branch", "thank you very very much for actually thank you very much", "i really would like to ask mr newton garter and mr kristoff something that has come up throughout this hearing and that is the report that throughout the last decade gsa spent roughly one hundred and seventy billion of taxpayers money contracting with seventy four companies doing business in iran at the exact same time we were trying to put pressure on iran", "and my question is basically how did this happen did the fact that these companies were doing business with iran ever come up when you were reviewing the contracts or signing contracts in gsa did anyone from anywhere in the federal government point out that we shouldn't be giving part of our federal procurement to companies that were really in direct violation of our stated foreign policy goals did anyone ever talk to you mr newton garter about these contracts and that they should not be getting a one hundred and seventy billion in taxpayer money when we're trying to impose sanctions the short answer is no i have not been involved in these matters", "i will be happy to look into this and get back to you for the record", "i returned to gsa two years ago as the director of the office of acquisition and integrity with my duties as suspension and debarment official", "but before that i was at hud as the senior procurement executive and was not aware of any such matters at hud but i will be happy to look further into this for", "if you couldn't get back to us mr kristoff do you want to comment on it how did this happen that we're handing out billions and federal contracts to companies in direct violation of our stated policy goals foreign policy and stated laws of the country well first i would state that as we all know it's the responsibility of the executive branch to investigate companies determine what is credible evidence and try to impose the sanctions", "the number that i think you're referring to is a new york times article where there was over a hundred billion dollars in contracts", "when i looked at their list many of those companies are companies that would not be sanctionable under what was then the laws of the land", "companies that were in the automobile industry for example would not have been", "would they be sanctionable now under this law not necessarily", "why not because it still doesn't cover items such as the automobile industry", "and there was a lot of companies on that list that dealt in the automotive community", "well maybe we should cover them with sanctions", "i just want to mention mr glazer that the treasury department has done a very good job and i compliment you on the work you've done", "as a member of financial services committee my time is up and we don't have time to go further", "we have another panel but i have a series of questions respectfully", "i'd like to place in writing to you so that we can get these answers and i congratulate you on your work and also", "that object is ordered", "also the state department your international work too get compliance", "thank you very much", "thank you very much", "and actually let me just say to the members that within a few minutes we will have two votes on the floor", "so what i would like to do is to adjourn until one hundred and thirty pm and we will reconvene at one hundred and thirty pm", "i'm sorry about that but we have to vote around here and if we don't vote they talk about us", "so this panel is actually dismissed and the committee will adjourn until one hundred and thirty pm and we'll come back"], "name": ["gov.house.ogr.20100729.4/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_20100729_DOT_4/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_20100729_DOT_4_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "gov.house.ogr.20100729.4/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_20100729_DOT_4/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_20100729_DOT_4_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "gov.house.ogr.20100729.4/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_20100729_DOT_4/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_20100729_DOT_4_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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mexico", "being from texas let's talk a little bit about the gulf of mexico if you wouldn't mind", "the us oil companies aren't the only ones drilling the gulf of mexico are they i don't believe so but i have to be honest with you", "our purview includes only the western united states and i'm not familiar with who's operating in the gulf of mexico", "i believe as a lawyer i don't ask a question i provide the answer to", "and you've actually got the china drilling off the coast of cuba", "you've got the state oil company in mexico that's drilling in the gulf of mexico as well", "so regardless of what amount of regulation we put on our domestic oil companies we're not gonna have any effect on what china and mexico are doing", "we can't change the way they drill", "would that be an accurate statement i think that's correct sir", "i think that the chairman mentioned too that while we are seeing the prices at these very high levels apparently related to the unrest in the middle east the longer term picture is the not just these other emerging economies are very actively and aggressively out in the world market looking for new production opportunities", "they're buying a tremendous amount of oil and it's creating upward pressure so do you think a better regulatory scheme or better wade for the taxpayers to spend their money rather than making it more difficult for y'all to drill in the gulf and compete and make permitting and all these regulations might be to invest a little bit of time and money in some response training and technology so in the event something happened in a well owned by or operated by another country we'd be able to respond to that as well as if something happened locally i lost the question i followed up i know", "rather than putting excessive regulation on our domestic companies making it difficult for them to compete let's say in the gulf of mexico", "and where you've got mexico and china also drilling", "if something happens on a mexican or in a chinese drilling rig and there's a blowout or a leak or something wouldn't be better off rather than spending our time and effort regulating domestic companies coming up with responses that would benefit any worldwide oil company i think the us oil and gas industry has led the world in developing those kinds of responses", "in california of course we have a huge resources on standby two hundred and forty seven to respond and have developed along with other regions of the country", "this technology that really is used worldwide to respond to any accidents that occur", "all right well i'm overtime", "i'll let everybody else get their turns but i would like another round of questions", "i assure you we will as long as our witnesses are willing to indulge us we would like to learn all we can", "mr mccarthy", "well i thank all the witnesses for their testimony", "and it really comes down to why we're having the hearing why we're having this challenge", "we use more energy than we produce in this country", "having said that that means we have to get it from somewhere else", "so we pay for it's from where else", "the challenge that i've always faced in this job is there's many times we think in california we realize other states compete with us", "we had the ability to say which state produces more than others", "we watch every day maybe a company leave california somewhere else cause they maybe get a little better place", "we never really think that america competes with other countries but we do", "and energy is probably the number one industry that you can find that to happen", "if we make it harder here we will still buy it somewhere else", "now this country has faced a lot of challenges", "and normally when we face a challenge we meet a goal and we go forward", "we've done that in world war ii", "we achieved our goal", "when we found it that russia went to space first we made a goal for us in a decade we will go to the moon", "and we faced our attention on that", "for too long in energy we only face our attention when the problem gets too big", "and then we'll put our attention there", "then we forget about it when it comes down so you don't have the ability to go there", "if anybody's ever lived in a community that has oil you've seen the booms in the bust", "if you lived in this community you watched a time where the cost to lift it was more than the barrel you could even sell it for but you could not shut it down", "so you had to maintain it", "i have found that the country gets very divided", "now a time that we all get united is usually during the olympics", "why because we cheer for our country", "we never ask them whether they're republican or democrat", "but the other reason why we cheer so strong is because america gets a level playing field", "if we do a hundred yard dash we all start at the same starting line and we all have the same finishing line", "so we've gotta think from that mindset too", "when we make stuff more difficult here someone else can still be drilling someplace else but have different protections on the coast than we would have", "and so taking some of that i thought some of this ability of what i saw here today i loved the presentation where you actually shown how it was going", "now technology has changed", "and probably the best analogy i've heard from somebody if you think of a bath tub and you fill it with water picture that underground that that's a natural resource", "our old way of doing it was putting a lot of straws into the bathtub and trying to get that water out", "horizontal is fundamentally different", "now we get to just go to the drain and use one", "so that's one over the land", "and that's one ability to bring it up in a different capacity", "and it's environmentally safer", "when oil was first discovered in kern county it was out in taft", "it was a lake", "there's pictures of people in a boat not of water but of oil", "it's a fundamental different place of where we have it now and how our protections", "but i wanna take that technology a little further and i wanna follow up with mr witson", "when you do the fracking you had shown in your graph cause there has been some people bring up the issue about the water table and the protection", "if you can walk me through that one more time to show where fracking goes and where the water table is and what protections we have and going using the technology", "great question congressman", "water tables or the aquifers that are drinkable are essentially shallow and with very few exceptions as i indicated a few hundred feet below the surface", "the states require and we with our practices implement a very strict regimen of sealing off those water sources at the surface or close to the surface with multiple layers of steel and cement", "and then the frack job is done through those layers that seal off the water", "and when you normally do the fracking how further down is that from the water table itself thousands of feet in most cases", "certainly fifteen thousand feet is not uncommon", "we at devon are doing eight to ten to twelve thousand feet", "and so you're well below far below the water sources", "in canada i will mention too and this goes to other things we're doing to try to protect both water quality and quantity and quality", "we actually in our heavy oil operations in canada have found ways to use nonpotable water", "so we use now fresh water to generate steam", "and we're trying to find areas where we can do things like that all the time because we are very much in tune with concerns that are very legitimate particularly in the west about water issues", "we also try recycling where we can", "we do it where we can and we also blend water", "so we use flowback water to put in the next job if we are able to do that", "and we're making progress on that technology all the time as well", "now we all know that one form of energy is not gonna get us out", "as we also know that as advancements goes we will have renewables that have great potential for the future but we need that bridge", "the challenge that we have is that we have to have a policy that allows us with the ebbs and flows of the cost to actually bring the cost down because our economy seventy of is based on consumption", "with the price of oil rising so rapidly what happens is people are still paying that cost of the business and they're taking the consumption out of the economy", "so our economy drops", "but that price still goes someplace else and it goes out to another economy", "so rock you brought up inside talking about the taxes that they are very similar in the same taxes based upon any other business", "i wish if you could explain that a little further", "well there's been a lot of discussion about whether or not oil companies received subsidies", "and i was trying to make the distinction between a subsidy and a tax treatment", "in fact first of all the actual components that are within the administration's budget that they wanna eliminate target independent producers not major oil", "so that's the first distinction", "most of those tax treatments are not available to the major integrated oil companies", "they're only for the independence", "but the second and more important point that i was trying to make is a subsidy is a cash payment from the government for doing some sort of activity", "it's quite different if you are having a debate within the irs about how to treat a certain expense", "and we'd be happy to have that debate but keep in mind the only way that you have this debate and the only way that you have these expenses if you're deploying capital", "and that's exactly what our companies are doing is they're deploying capital", "and the question is how best can they redeploy the new capital and that's what a lot of these tax treatments were designed for given the fact that this is highly risky", "it's very expensive and our energy security depends on it", "the taxes in the 10s and 20s a hundred years ago were designed in order to encourage the rapid reinvestment of this capital back into new oil and drilling programs", "and that's exactly what we experienced", "so if you do not invest the risk you cannot get the tax that's correct", "governor can i just add one point here please sir", "yes", "we will just inject four for devon", "and we are a large independent exploration production company", "the recent proposals by the administration just on the intangible drilling costs which are the real cost as rock has pointed out of drilling a well it's clearing the land during the environmental remediation", "if those proposals were put in place it would cost devon about a billion dollars in the first year", "and that would equate to our complete drilling program in the barnett shale that i mentioned was where the shale revolution really started", "and it's the most prolific area in the country", "to us we have to say what is that all about that looks to us like it is totally a wrongheaded policy that actually would penalize the companies that are most efficient at producing domestic resources that power this nation", "i wanna go to assembly we've engraved because she has witnessed one and kind of all your presentation from the redundancy of regulation not just with oil with renewables trying to find from wind and solar out in east kern", "but from our own personal in a business finding out because of what california does where you're setting a business in another state", "i wonder if you could touch on one the redundancy that what you are viewing outside into the district as well for the our ability to produce more energy in america", "thank you", "in all due respect i'd like to address just one thing prior to we talked about taxes or a tax that you guys were just addressing", "industry meaning the oil industry pays an average of four hundred and fourteen of tax", "and if california liberal politicians have their way what we're fighting up in that building right now and they get a one hundred and twenty five oil severance tax it'll increase the industry's tax to five hundred and thirty nine", "now to give that number some perspective if you take apple in two thousand and ten they paid twenty eight of its revenue or profit to the government apple did", "and while it generated more profits than chevron", "so in perspective industry is being punished on a tax base than other employment agents or industries", "and if you go back to mr chair you had a question earlier about the average products are good and profit", "and those of us that have been business know that somebody could say well you run a twenty five million a year corporation but after you pay payroll taxes workers comp liability insurance and you go down to the net profit it's around a hundred thousand dollars not in the millions", "so if you take apple for instance again in a comparison the average product sold are about twenty five above the cost of materials and production for marketing and sales", "and then if you use that for the same in comparison to with exxon exxon's profit margins in comparison were about eighty seven", "and that's hardly the windfall that people are proclaiming", "if you take the oil industry as a whole they have one hundred and fifteen basic on profits and making that 45th most profitable industry of the year", "that is hardly close to the top ten", "so just to clarify those two things", "and then back to your question mr mccarthy i'm sorry", "from a business standpoint being a third sometimes fourthtier contractor for the oil industry the job multiplier that we have and i ran on jobs", "we have twenty five million people unemployed in the state of california which affects our federal revenue as well", "and when i ran on jobs and you look at what industry can place in these jobs you talk about the job multiplier", "a lot of the individuals in this testimony have referenced the oil industry jobs and i'm gonna name a few local companies", "if you take one oil field job and a platform you have engineers that and you have site engineers you have chemical engineers you have mechanical engineers", "you have people that are the job multipliers what i call em", "if you build a site you have an excavation crew a site crew a gravel crew", "the gravel is produced someplace mainly in one of the facilities that we have either on the great vine or in mojave", "you have a trucking companies that transport that gravel to the site", "you have everything from all those companies that are supported by oil or big oil small oil independent oil", "these are small businesses that thrive on this industry", "you have people that supply more paper and pencils and product like from stinson's or o'leary's", "you got simple things like monuts speedway market where ninety of the people that go to work in the oil field stop and purchase stuff from her for their daily consumption of food and breakfast", "so when you look at the small business that thrives on this industry the jobs that are created and not created from private business because of the limitations with permit delays and through the division of oil and gas or i've seen projects delayed out in the oil industry where a blunt nose leopard lizard is onsite and they cautioned tape it off and everybody sits around and waits for this lizard to leave", "mr layton talked about a description of a job that's being delayed where the activity of this blunt nose lizard is in certain times of the year", "so you just have to stop working until this lizard finds its way to another location or goes into some type of hibernation", "those things don't make any sense when it comes to job creation", "the oil industry and job creators are very conscious of things that need to be done to protect our environment and our land but california and department of fish and game and federal epa is way overreaching and have become completely unreasonable to the hindrance or full out assault against private sector job creation", "assembly woman if i could follow up on that is there really any difference in your estimation between the crazy or the excesses you're describing in oil and the same excesses that are occurring that are delaying green energy rollout because this is also an area of the state that has the potential to provide an awful lot of solar and other energy", "don't you find the same thing to be true that the same selfinflicted wounds are hurting our ability to reach any reasonable goal of renewables it's exactly true", "and it's not only in renewable in the energy you take in east kern which i represent as well", "there was a solar plant that wanted to put a solar facility in the mojave desert where the sun is", "and it was not able to do that because of a mojave ground squirrel", "you look at industry just private business industry across from development", "i have a developer in taft who's had a certain piece of property who cannot develop that property and provide affordable housing in taft where we have a large oil production area because of squirrels that live on that property", "and he has to tag em and put a little lantana on em and transfer em to double the amount of property", "it's so the environment we saw that on animal planet", "it was very impressive the tracking", "just not very productive for mankind i guess it isn't", "it is not and not productive for job creation in our state and in our nation", "i recently had the opportunity to go to texas and it was very interesting you'd see the governor i understand", "i did", "i got to meet governor perry", "and what was interesting is that we talked to the department of railroad oversees their permit process in texas", "for some i'm not really sure about that cause the railroad and the permit process", "and i'm keeping the same environmentally protections protecting our land and being conscious of our planet", "they issue permits within two to five days project permits where we're sometimes delayed for up to years", "that and then the environmental delays with species endangered species on these projects and properties causes jobs that we desperately need here in our state and our nation to be delayed as well", "rock you said something and i want to try to put it in the record in a way that people that are not involved in the oil industry would understand", "i came from the electronics industry", "we watched the government come up with is interesting one that our patents if we had a patent and we went through and we paid the legal fees we had to amortize the patent", "over the life of the patent all the costs we paid to the lawyers", "so you pay the lawyers today you finally get your patent", "and by the way if they turned down the patent you could write it off", "but if you actually had something worthwhile so you got it", "you had to amortize all", "then if you had to sue somebody to defend your patent you had to put all of that into if you will a longterm depreciation schedule because the government wanted your profits today even if you had spent them in trying to create profits for the future", "isn't that basically the same kind of wrong minded thinking that american companies are seeing except in your case it's a drill bit that when you double the drill bit and you break a bunch of equipment as you're drilling down and you set it aside you send it off to salvage", "it's gone you've spent you bought it you paid for it you spent it and you disposed of it", "they now want you to amortize that over the useful life of the oil well", "isn't that essentially what cause you say intangible", "and to me money out of my pocket that i know i spent that they want me to pretend i didn't spend for twenty years", "that's not intangible", "is that the intangible we're talking about here today that's exactly right", "we're talking about mud cement testing some drilling operations that you're talking about", "all things that are happening before a well is completed or any production has come online", "what's amazing is america is a funny place", "we talk about how we support business", "we really care about it but people in washington in my position have done some amazing things", "i was in private business when nafta was passed", "and whether you're for or against nafta one day i found out nafta had been signed and i found out as a result of nafta i was gonna have to wire transfer weekly", "my payroll withholding taxes instead of sending in a check", "and the reason was because your predecessor bill thomas and all the other guys they had a couple of billion they needed in revenue to make nafta pencil out", "so they got it by accelerating the speed with which every business in america would send money to the government", "now it only scores a onetime event cause they've just accelerated the speed which they got it from a couple of weeks or a quarter for small companies to immediate", "we're still doing that today", "and it's one of the frustrations i have", "i want your industry to expense everything absolutely that is consumed", "i certainly want you to capitalize your longterm assets", "if you've got a casing there it's reasonable to have it over the life but i want your capital be put back to work as quickly as possible", "i want devon energy to have a smaller bank line or put in more wells", "and the amazing thing is i can't get my government to go along and i can't even get the ways and means committee to go along", "but let me go to another question that i wanted to understand because fracking which is not new technology isn't what we're talking about here today", "what we're talking about is better fracking is that right that's correct", "and new applications of fracking", "and if i understood correctly if we're concerned about the watershed we've been concerned about it for sixty years because you've been fracking for sixty years", "correct", "and we've sort of we should know we shouldn't need secretary chu to endlessly study something you've been doing for sixty years", "let me understand something when you go down once but you go far further as far as what you yield the only difference in that is that you only have one area of risk which is that casing for far greater gain", "is that correct the casing is placed for a couple of reasons", "the one that we've been talking about obviously is to protect the water sources", "that's primary and it happens in every well", "there are other applications of casing to prevent the hole from collapsing and those kinds of things", "but the fact is and what i think you're alluding to is that we've been doing this for a long time", "the technology gets better", "the materials get stronger the knowledge of how we do this and how many times we do it along that horizontal length of pipe it all improves and we are seeing remarkable efficiency gains", "and one more thing that that is really remarkable today is we're doing much more of what we call pad drilling where we can actually do these multiple horizontal wells from one surface location so that we don't have to disturb the surface multiple places around this gas field", "so again the technology just continues to improve", "that's what i was leading to", "and i appreciate your clarifying my question about question because this is something where i'm still learning what you've spent a lifetime knowing", "you've got less exposure to the watershed because you're going down less times for the total amount you're getting", "correct", "your risk of course always is when you first drill through a water area until you get it sealed and you're comfortable and all the tests have done there's always some risk", "let's just say hypothetically that you hit oil because something one of the occasions they're well much closer than you thought it would be", "but you've eliminated all that risk before you start going horizontal", "so in a sense horizontal is getting more from this already mitigated small risk that you had when you first drilled what i guess in oklahoma is what is it twelve million wells they've drilled or something", "we've drilled a lot of wells and fracked a hundred thousand of them in oklahoma", "but also the other point i would make to congressmen is that in these shale plays in particular which is really the revolutionary thing now", "once we are there it's heavy by the way", "anyone that didn't pick this up when i send it back down you gotta figure it this is pretty darn dense rock", "it's pretty amazing that we're actually getting the gas to migrate through that rock to the wellbore", "and what i was gonna say is that also when we are doing this in these shale plays it almost becomes a in those particular areas something that we can replicate with less and less almost zero risk", "of course there's always some but i think in the barnett shale i don't think we've had a dry hole in thousands of wells for devon", "but that's because we finally nailed this technology", "it's right to your point that it's american ingenuity it's innovation trying to put these things together in different ways in these different shale place", "i'm gonna only have about two more questions but they're gonna probably be ambiguous", "so steer me through to the right answer on the question of a question", "when you used to go down and try to find a pocket of gas methane et cetera et cetera all the combinations of what you'd find down there it was hide and go seek", "and when you found it it could be quite a surprise", "there was a risk because this is volatile", "you don't know what pressure you're gonna poke into and so on", "you're out of that business for the most part", "you're going into a low pressure depth into rock rather than into big pocket of gas with this technology", "isn't that true well the pressures do vary", "there are some high pressure areas and lower pressure areas", "and i would say too that as was mentioned earlier along with the improvement in the completion techniques that the fracking and the drilling of the wells we have had very significant and continue to have very significant seismic and geophysics type of technology improvements", "and again it's putting all that together so that we know where we're gonna find resources more accurately and we can drill fewer wells to find them have more success", "the reason i asked that question is like most people who don't know your technology be watched tv", "i had watched some years ago about what happens if you hit that pocket and you shatter the impermeable layer that had kept it there for a long time you can in fact have natural gas flowing freely to the surface", "and that has happened a few times in history at least enough for television to capture it", "in the case of this technology you're going through the impermeable layer through the sand that was already there back into the core rock that had not released it", "so in a sense it's a much safer operation because you're you're not up against if you will the great protection against gas free flowing up", "it's much safer", "and it's much safer for other reasons as well which is that our materials and our processes and our practices are so much better today as we've learned through the years because of the very incidents that you've talked about", "now one last question for you and then rock's got an answer for a question that i asked earlier i think", "this is a heck of a solid piece of rock", "i looked at your presentation and as i look at you going diagonally here and then there i get the feeling that there's no question you're releasing more than otherwise was released", "is there available technology or available percentage you could give me what did we used to get when we just caught what happened to bubbled up and was sitting there under the withholding chamber what are we getting today when you frack typically and how much is really down there if you continue to improve your fracking to where you can sort of get it all well i don't know how to answer the first part of the question in a global sense but if you look at that one slide there's a very dramatic representation from one area", "but i will say that the potential gas committee and these are the resource estimators that are the experts in this country and really known worldwide they've just come out with yet another estimate of more natural gas that's recoverable in this country", "something on the order of probably in north america two thousand five hundred trillion cubic feet and we use twenty trillion or so a year now", "so you can see it's well more than a hundred years", "it continues to grow with technology", "and that's gotta be exciting for the country", "well certainly for those of us who heard that we were gonna get our last drop of oil or our last drop of gas and we were going to need renewables already because it was all gonna be gone to find out that there's plenty more", "and obviously i'm excited about oil because i don't want us importing oil from unfriendly areas", "but i'm even more excited about natural gas cause all the green lobbyists who have ever come to see me and many have they all talk about how if we could just get off that dirty coal and get onto clean natural gas what the benefit would be", "thank you for what your company's doing to take us from x carbon per btu to a fraction of what it would be if we go from coal to natural gas", "and rock you get the last answer to that question", "well i just wanted to mention another application of the directional drilling", "and that is offshore california", "offshore production is a very emotional issue on the west coast", "but i wanted people to be cognizant of the fact that you can utilize this technology off shore california"], "name": ["gov.house.ogr.20110506.3/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_20110506_DOT_3/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_20110506_DOT_3_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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4183, 1840, 1280, 6430, 5010, 7900, 31790, 3020, 2040, 3680, 2270, 14780, 1510, 3723, 11190, 4030, 26940, 3237], "label": ["we want to thank everyone for their patience and the delay that we had because of votes", "we appreciate your coming back today and i like to reward people being on time and doing what they're supposed to do so i think we'll go ahead and ask mr alford if he now would present his five minute testimony", "thank you mr alford thank you", "committee chairs and distinguished members of this joint subcommittee thank you for allowing me to testify today", "i am president ceo of the national black chamber of commerce which represents the fastest growing segment of american small business blackowned businesses", "at the inception of the nbcc in ninety three there were three hundred thousand blackowned businesses doing thirty three billion in annual sales", "excuse me", "today there are more than nineteen million blackowned businesses doing over one hundred and thirty eight billion in annual sales", "this fantastic growth leads to a growing demand for a larger educated workforce", "by a study by stanford university shows unemployment among all teenagers at two hundred and forty two among black teenagers regardless of gender the rate is four hundred and sixteen but among black teenage males the rate is a very dangerous four hundred and fifty five", "nearly half of that population is unemployed", "the percentage of these young people who will be enrolling at the university of southern california ohio state et cetera will be very small indeed", "the best alternative is proprietary schools", "the above is made all the more crucial when we look at the educational access", "the bureau of labor statistic's data shows that americans with less than a high school diploma have an unemployment rate of one hundred and forty seven", "those with a high school diploma ninety five", "those with a associate degree or certificate eight", "and those with a bachelor's degree forty five", "we can reach but one conclusion it should be the primary goal of the federal government to provide as many young minority americans as broad a range of educational opportunities as possible", "why is the department of education targeting forprofit schools with a vengeance that will harm a certain segment of our population the gainful employment rule is a job killer", "incredibly proprietary schools serve fifty two of these highrisk students while nonprofit schools only serve nine and public schools serve a paltry six", "furthermore forty nine of the students enrolled at forprofit institutions are lowincome as opposed to just eighteen at public schools", "also fifty of the students attending forprofit colleges are minority students compared to just thirty four at public schools", "so the problem at hand is that minority students are already at a great disadvantage", "and now the department of education has made it worse by shutting down a major path to education and jobs", "the department of education has drifted over into a lane reserved for the congress of the united states making laws", "that the department has created this rule is harmful enough", "the process was definitely flouted if not corrupted", "we want to draw your attention to questions that beg your intervention", "we know the secret meetings took place between department officials and wall street short sellers that were placing heavy bets against the share prices of forprofit schools", "what was going on we know that the department is somewhat a covert group of allies including former employers of department staff short sellers and competitors of the forprofit industry and that they traded secret information against the code of the rulemaking process", "the question is what was going on we also know that department officials elicited negative information about forprofit colleges from the secret cabal and the information was provided even when it was deceptively collected", "what was going on we know that the department relied heavily on a now discredited gao report but never withdrew this report from their process of consideration", "what was going on we know that the department assembled a biased rule making committee composed of a sixteen to one ratio meaning that there was no opportunity for the industry and the minority students they represent to have a fair voice in the proceedings", "what was going on we know that the department was intent on punishing proprietary colleges from the very beginning even while america's higher education challenges confront every type of institution", "so what is the joint subcommittee going to do to address student debt academic performance and occupational preparation in every college in our nation in conclusion the gainful employment rule is never the law of the land and will have grave consequences on hundreds of thousands of minority students", "we want to remind everyone that to qualify for public assistance programs proprietary schools must meet exactly the same academic standards set by the same accreditation agencies as harvard or penn state", "the fact is that the opponents of proprietary schools are really trying to mask the same concerns that all colleges share such as student debt academic performance and occupational preparation", "the black employers that i represent hope you will work together to find solutions to these vexing challenges rather than make a scapegoat out of forprofit schools", "the bias and corrupt process which produced this rule should be reversed through the congressional review act or some other means", "thank you and i look forward to your questions and discussions", "i yield eight seconds", "you get the star the gold star for not going over your time today mr alford", "thank you very much yes ma'am", "for your comments and again we appreciate your patience in waiting for us and we're very happy that mr kucinich has joined us", "i just want to make a couple of comments brief comments and then i'm gonna ask a couple of questions and then we will take turns as members of the committee asking questions of the panel members", "i first want to read a statement that was in the letter from congressman towns who asked us to have this hearing because i think it fits well into a comment that i'd like to make based on mr carnevale's comments", "in mr town's letter he says mr chairman i know there's goodfaith disagreement as to whether the ge regulations as written are right or wrong needed or not needed but there's one principle on which we all should be in agreement", "and that is a rulemaking that allows nonelected government officials to establish policy and have the force of law must be fair unbiased and transparent and then he asked that we have this hearing as soon as possible", "mr carnevale i was very interested", "i'm a person who's had some experience in higher education and i was very interested in your comments about the need to focus on programs and not degrees", "i have long agreed with that", "i very much agree i think even more so that we should focus on skills and not necessarily on degrees", "i don't agree with you that regulations make markets work better necessarily but i do think that having information is very important which is a big point that you made", "and it seems to me that if that is true for one sector of higher education it's true for all sectors of higher education that we need students to have accurate information about the return on their spending or their investment", "i don't think government makes investments but people make investments", "they make investments in money and in time", "and therefore i think you made a great case for the fact that if we're going to have regulations like these they should certainly apply to everyone so i appreciate very much the comments that you made", "now i'd like to ask dr cortes a question", "as you know the department of education recently made a number of changes to the final gainful employment regulation", "do these modifications allay your fears that the regulations are going to negatively impact students attending proprietary colleges chairman woman foxx i do believe that even with the redefined rules the rule itself is complex", "it difficult to manage from both ends from our institutional ability to carry the task of identifying and to getting the data correctly", "i think it's also very difficult from the federal side to really able to coordinate the ability to gather all the data and then having a matrix that allow them to determine and make decisions for institutions without having all that's connected", "so i do believe that the role although it's more flexible than it was in the original it still doesn't have the transparency", "it doesn't have the connection that is needed for us in the trenches as educators to be able to spend as i said earlier significant amount of time gathering data and now concern about teaching and learning and providing the education that we need to our students", "we have taken significant amount of time at berkeley college alone to try to gather the details that we need by july 1st to be able to comply with some of the rules that just come down", "so i think at the institutions in our sector in particular have been affected by this significant targeted way in that not all institutions are treated equally that this ge rule is only applied to the forprofit institutions", "i think it's unfair and not equitable", "do you want to say anything more about the social security administration data that the department plans to use i mean you touched on it in your comments and we only have about thirty seconds so let you keep that in mind", "absolutely", "i think it's not only the privacy of the data and the confidentiality of social security information but again as i said earlier i don't see how that database along with the information that is being required is going to be able to be managed in a way that will maximize the ability to make choices by the federal government to our institutions welfare and wellbeing", "thank you very much", "mr kucinich", "i'd like to recognize you for five minutes", "thank you my friend the gentelady the chair", "i want to speak about the high default rates at forprofit institutions", "staff could you put up display chart number two it's available", "thank you", "according to the february two thousand and eleven data released by the department of education defaulters from forprofit colleges disproportionately account for forty eight of student loan defaults across all higher education sectors", "it's also true that sixty four of the students at forprofit colleges are lowincome minority students", "since these students are overrepresented at forprofit schools they make up the majority of the default rates caused by forprofit institutions", "now dr carnevale some forprofit colleges have argued that their high default rate is due to the fact that they disproportionately serve lowincome minority students who are more likely to have financial stresses and there's an assertion that that's the reason why you end up with so many defaults but i'm just wondering if a more accurate description of defaults is that a lowincome minority students at these forprofit colleges are more likely to default because forprofit colleges have tuition costs that are in some instances eight times greater than nonprofit public colleges and thereby puts those minority students who attend them in greater jeopardy just because of the sheer amount of expense and debt that they have to incur", "i'd like your response to that", "the social science on this is interesting and somewhat surprising frankly to me", "we ran these numbers and expected to find as we did that there's a disproportionate effect on minorities and lowincome students but when you run a statistical test to figure out what the cause is what comes through very clearly and i again it surprised me was that the cost and the low wage rate is the principle determinant of default", "there does seem to be in some ways when data you want to explain that when you say costs in a lowwage rate what do you mean that is the reason people aren't paying the money back cause they're not making enough money to do it which i know is in some sense logical but you never expect that in social science", "so it was really very striking in the numbers", "that is people the fact that people don't repay is because they can't repay", "but you know let's look at another variable here which is a dependent variable because when you look at the fact of the cost of", "that nonprofit colleges have foreign education there's multiples of that cost as opposed to other colleges", "i mean wouldn't you agree with them oh sure but one of the things that you may not be making enough money but the mountain you have to climb with debt is much larger if you are going to a forprofit college", "and the size of the debt does appear to have a direct relationship on repayment", "that is people are intimidated by the debt i guess is the way to say it", "but let's not miss the connection", "the size of the debt comes from the amount of money that people are charged for their education", "this is part of this whole discussion that really is sort of a couple horizons away", "we're talking about in the end in the short haul whether the programs are worth it", "but then there's a question that we haven't really addressed yet is should the programs be least cost that is you can get two programs that are essentially the same thing", "one at a community college will end up costing you eight grand or nine grand and a forprofit college costs you multiples of that", "should the government be concerned about the cost differential that really hasn't come up much in this debate", "but it's come up now", "yes you brought it up", "and i think that this committee is the proper forum for us to determine whether or not the lowincome minority students who are experiencing these high rate of defaults are in a situation where they're boxed in by the extraordinary cost at forprofit colleges cause you know when you're coming from an innercity background that's where i came from i can tell you that going to college is like a dream and people will do anything to do it including madam chair taking on extraordinary expenses and getting over their heads and sometimes putting themselves in a position where they're in debt for the next ten years or fifteen years of their lives", "but to the default rate how do we deal with that i want to thank the chair for her indulgence and giving me some extra time here", "thanks", "thank you thank you mr kucinich", "mr petri", "thank you very much madam chairman and thank all the panelists for the effort that you made to be here today and to prepare your testimony", "i had a couple of questions of ms carpenter", "first i wondered if i could give you an opportunity if you had any reaction to the points made by your fellow panelists", "i'd be interested in hearing them", "thank you very much congressman petri", "i do have some impressions as a layperson a parent a graduate", "clearly i'm thrilled that there is more public discourse on the topic of educational reform as a whole", "i think it's a vital vehicle by which americans of all socioeconomic sectors in our society can use to attain their personal pursuit of the american dream", "and given my experience in reentering the workforce in a dramatically changed economic environment transitioning from an industrialaged society of a more nationally oriented business economy to one that is far more global more technologically advanced clearly we're living in times of transition", "and once again as i stated in my testimony we are now faced as a nation in addressing the appropriate responses in the educational forum to meet the demands and needs of our society and our economy", "so thanks to all of you for giving very very important consideration to what the best reform would be", "beyond that statement i would really defer to other people who are more professionally invested in the process to speak specifically to the issue of what's before us for the gainful employment regulation", "i'm not as well informed as others on the panel of who's given testimony but clearly they have important input for the panel", "when we met and you participated in a little different panel in madison wisconsin you indicated that probably because your training at herzing but mainly because of your work with an international company where you are dealing with hiring and evaluating possible employees or current employees all over the world in different hightech areas your company was working computer programming and the like you said people", "it was a sort of a cry from the heart if i remember that people better start waking up as to what's really going on and not be too selfindulgent and assume that we will just continue because in the future as it has been in the past", "i wonder if you could expand on that", "and you and other employers who operate not just in the united states but in other countries have a perspective we ought to be learning more about because you're dealing with young people who are looking for jobs doing essentially the same thing but whether they're from india or china or africa or europe", "what's your perspective on how well we're doing or whether that assessment is accurate that we're a little selfindulgent here there are certain skillsets that are in severe shortage within the tech sector in which i work and so yes we do work with people in multiple countries in providing the research and development work that's necessary for my company quest software which is a publicly traded company on the nasdaq based in orange county california", "for them to be able to hire enough qualified employees we do employ people from all over the globe", "i personally work on a research and development group that writes enterprise level software", "i have coworkers who reside in russia china new zealand that i meet with weekly sometimes daily depending on where we're at in the development cycle", "many of these individuals are working for an american corporation speaking in a second language", "english is our predominant language of business layered on top of the very technical skills they've acquired", "it's critical that americans wake up to realize that in order to be successful in business you will most likely be doing business with people as coworkers from all over the globe", "therefore our skillset in language skills cultural sensitivity skills as well as the technical background is really critical for success", "and how do we attain those things but through our educational institutions and in providing the curriculum and programs that are adept to train our workforce and still lead the nation in our economic and workforce development", "thank you", "thank you mr petri", "mr cummings", "thank you very much", "i want to thank our witnesses for being here today", "your testimony has been extremely helpful", "the thing that i ms carpenter as i listened to you first of all we're very proud of you and what you have accomplished", "you're not the person who we are most concerned about cause you've done well", "it's the ones that don't make it", "there's a scripture in the bible jeremiah one hundred and fifty nine that says her sun rose while it was still day meaning that", "her sun set while it was still day meaning that there are people who have opportunities and they still have life but something happens in their life that causes their dreams to die", "those are the people that were concerned about", "the sun set while it's still day", "and on that note mr carnevale can you you know when i look at", "it says both the senate health committee and the education trust to report it that forprofit colleges often have tuition rates much higher than those of local colleges", "these forprofit tuitions can be as much as five times that of local community or four year public colleges", "if a student chose to attend berkeley dr cortes a forprofit institution to obtain a two year associates degree it will cost her about forty one thousand four hundred in tuition and fees", "however if that same student chose to go to the city university of new york community college in manhattan it would cost her six thousand four hundred and ninety six over the two year period for the same degree", "i wanted to go to you dr cortes and then i want to come back to you dr carnevale", "dr cortes what justifies berkeley's tuition costing nearly thirty five thousand more than a public community college thank you congressman cummings for the question", "absolutely i think the value of a berkeley education consists of small classes faculty who are practitioners in the field students who have the ability to get a required internship as part of the requirements for graduation the ability to be placed in the job faculty as i said earlier that are faculty doctorally trained the ability to have a small groups of students working together in order to engage in the graduation but more important i think is the ability for institutions like ours in the private sector is about capacity", "it's really to look at what president obama have indicated that what do you do for retention what do you do do you use any of that money that you make for retention absolutely", "we invest over thirty seven million back institutionally to assist students through scholarships and grants to subsidize the additional money that they don't have besides what they get from pell or tap in new york or tag in new jersey", "so we do invest significantly not only in our own income going back to the students because we know they need it", "the average salary but is that what most of these schools do well i can only speak for my right and that's part of the problem", "i understand that i appreciate that", "sure", "but dr cortes you describe much of your student population as being at risk is that right absolutely", "the majority of our students need significant remedial work", "we instituted for instance this coming year a bridge program that we allowed students to take courses for a period of about five weeks", "we don't charge any tuition", "it's almost like a trial period", "we allowed the students to make sure that they don't get into loans that they're not paying tuition", "but fifty one of your students take on riskier loans do they not i'm sorry fifty one of your students take on riskier loans", "is that accurate well i don't know if they're riskier", "they take loans but you know the difference between what they cannot afford between federal and state aid in the thirty seven million that we give that's what their students need to dr cortes you understand what i'm saying don't you sure i do", "you understand that we are concerned about people whose dreams are taken away and then they leave school with two bags one with nothing in it and the other with debt marked all over it", "and then their dreams are not deferred but they are killed", "you understand that right well i understand i can and there's a whole lot of them", "so you know i hear people talking about minority students and how they feel so happy that all these opportunities but for every one that graduates there at seven or eight that's fallen by the wayside in many cases never to return to college", "never that's criminal", "criminal", "absolutely", "i think it yeah you know i'm a product of a public school new york city education and i'm a product of a community college", "so i can speak from the real life experience", "i do believe that what we do in our sector we take students who are so much at risk", "we're able to get students to a point of graduation", "i give you an example in the great city of newark new jersey with the highschool dropout rates well over fifty if we can get four students out of ten to graduate from that great city of newark we do a tremendous service to the city of newark because those four students without berkeley in that vicinity and that local area will not be going to college because they cannot go to a community college", "they're not going into the private institutions or the publics because there's capacity", "thank you madam chair", "and the other six are left in debt", "no they're not", "well what happens with them they're not", "they either do not they did not continue", "they have to go back to work", "many of them are have to exist by working", "so the debt is extinguished no many of the students who enter will be able to complete", "if i give the example of the four that graduated the other six will able to come back and return and finish their degree if they were able to come back", "thank you madam chair", "thank you mr cummings", "mr meehan", "thank you madam chairman", "and thank you for the opportunity to participate in this hearing today on this", "i think we all share the concern of trying to assure that the funds that are forwarded to the students are repaid but i'm struggling with the issue here in which we are treating the forprofit institutions in one way and we aren't really analyzing this same effect in the notforprofit institutions", "i for one have benefited from a number of college students who are volunteering to work in my office because they can't find jobs", "and yet they are tens of thousands of dollars in debt", "and so if we're going to use a standard i'm struggling with the regulation", "we've now come up with rules and we're going to hold people accountable to a standard", "mr carnevale i know you've discussed this a little bit and tried to look at this issue", "is it fair for us to hold the notforprofit institutions in a different category than the forprofit if we're making these analysis on a year by year basis first and then second a lot of kids come out they struggle for a year or two and then they get that first job", "i mean should we be doing this the next year or should we be waiting three or four years to make this calculation the regulation essentially gives the institutions four years", "that is so it extends over a fairly lengthy period of time", "and the calculation in terms of loan repayment allows ten years for aa and some college fifteen for a ba and twenty four selected programs like dental programs and so on", "so in that sense it is not one of the way i think especially the amended regulation here", "the way to think about this truthfully is the brunt of this is aimed at program improvement", "the penalty part of this is very marginal frankly it's only two of the total it's capped at five", "this is essentially a device for moving programs toward a higher labor market value is in the end what it is", "the other point and is raised by mr cummings is that it is true", "the institutions get three strikes on this", "the students just get one", "that is if you end up with huge debt first of all whether you default or not you're not likely to return to school", "and they don't we know that", "and that relates directly to the size of the loan and the wages that the program leveraged that allows them to pay it back", "so it matters which program it was", "and then the other difficulty for the students is you only get one shot one bite at the apple because you can't go back and get more debt to go to school", "okay", "mr alford would you respond to this because i think that i have experienced as i've visited institutions across the range from community colleges to my universities to some of the schools and the forprofit schools", "many of the students in the forprofit schools are nontraditional students", "in fact this is one of the rural opportunities they have where someone's reaching back to them and saying i'm gonna give you a chance", "i'm gonna give you a skill that you can then take and find a way to gain employment in a very very difficult market", "and what i'm concerned about is the potential that this higher standard may lead a situation where those kinds of schools will say fine", "we're going to now stop reaching back to that student who's the least traditional who's the toughest reach because that's the most likely to fail", "let's just go find the safe middle cherry pick", "so would you please tell me what your perspective is i think it would have a devastating consequence on the people i represent or businesses who hire who try to hire people from these communities", "there's two big problems with my constituents", "one is management trainees", "our more successful businesses scour this nation looking for good educated black talent", "secondly is labor the lower level trucks can't pass a drug test and that's a requirement for any insurance policy", "so those are the two major problems", "and one thing that's unfair too sir private forprofit schools have higher tuition because they don't have uncle sam and the state government and local governments giving them subsidies tax funded money", "that's unfair to have a graph that shows all this high tuition but they don't charge that much", "if you put the tax subsidies in there they'd probably be more expensive than forprofit schools playing with numbers", "thank you for making that point mr alford", "madam chairman my time has expired thank you", "thank you mr meehan", "mr braley", "i would like to make it clear at the outset that the entire focus of every conversation we should be having about higher education is whether students are achieving progress toward a degree at a reasonable rate and whether the federal dollars being invested in any of these institutions meets the expectations of taxpayers who are providing that assistance whether that's a forprofit college a nonprofit college a private college or a public institution", "my nephew has attended a forprofit college got a degree and is working in a job that he loves", "and the question is not whether there have been substantial successes at forprofit colleges because ms carpenter your very presence here shows that there have been", "the question in this environment that all of us work in is whether or not forprofit colleges are providing the type of results for the investment we're making in them", "so let's talk for a moment about that", "my good friend senator tom harken has been doing a lot of analysis of this issue on his senate help committee and as a part of the exhaustive study that his committee has done there are some troubling findings", "one of them is that six hundred and thirty four of associate degree students at publicly traded forprofit schools and fifty eight of bachelor degree students at these schools drop out within a year and that almost every single one of those students more than half a million in one year are left with substantial debt and that a four month stay at a forprofit school can leave a student with four thousand to eleven thousand in debt", "now these are the facts", "even though forprofit students make up only ten of all higher education students the schools receive twenty five of federal student aid", "even more alarming is a fact i mentioned earlier that forty eight of all student loan defaults come from students who attend forprofit colleges", "and in many states that rate is greater than fifty", "mr carnevale are you familiar with the data that i've just cited do you believe that this sector that we're here talking about today which has done good things by your own testimony is doing a good job at being stewards of federal tax dollars given those results i think the evidence that is when you get past the anecdotal evidence and there's anecdotal evidence on both sides that is they're wonderful stories we heard ms carpenter today and they're awful stories", "the data which is more comprehensive says quite clearly that there is an issue here with public funds", "that is government doesn't want to buy planes that don't fly and in this case since the promise is an educational program that will get you a job as a sufficient wage to pay back the cost", "in this case there's a very substantial share of programs that simply don't do that and those are highly concentrated in forprofit institutions at the certificate in aa level frankly", "well one of the other disturbing things that came out of those findings in the harken committee's investigation was that there were schools who were getting a large number of online students which is great in terms of dealing with changing demands of students pursuing higher education but they had one thousand seven hundred recruiters working for those schools and one placement officer", "do you find that troubling i know from relationships with particular forprofit institutions that naturally where they see growth in demand ie when the military benefits went up in the past few years there was a huge increase in recruiters for military personnel to move to forprofit colleges", "in the end my bias about that is if in the end they get a good education a good job i don't care", "that's right", "but there is an issue here that they don't", "and i must say another thing that no one speaks to here today but should be spoken to is i went through the college on the gi bill so did my two brothers", "they're not included in this regulation and one of the dangers in this is if cause it is a private market oriented institution it will take its profits where it can", "that's the way it's supposed to work", "so if we shut down using the current regulation a lot of the expansion in these programs that don't pay among the regular population there's a risk here that there'll be a shift to the military and i personally have a problem with", "i thank you", "ms carpenter you mentioned you worked at trek bicycle co in waterloo wisconsin and i'm from waterloo iowa where you also mentioned the decorah connection with luther college", "one of the things that's concerning to me is that the very school you attended and obviously got a great education you're doing great things and i commend you for that but herzing had a dropout rate of fifty three for associate degree students and forty eight of bachelor's degrees within the first year", "were you aware of that phenomenon while you were a student on campus and what would be your explanation for why those dropout rates were so high on my campus in madison wisconsin and within my degree program i find those numbers not to sync up with my personal experience very few students if any dropped out of my associate's degree program", "as a matter of fact i only had these were herzing's own figures provided to the senate help committee right", "so i'm just asking you whether that was something that you were aware of when", "obviously it was not", "no not within my degree program and for the group of students that i graduated with", "that was not my experience", "and one of the other disturbing things about herzing's website is there's a link on it to tuition and instead of talking about the actual cost of attending herzing it says unfortunately a simple comparison of tuition price won't give you enough information to compare the true cost of attending school is it all bothersome to you that your alma mater would not be willing to give students who are considering enrolling there an opportunity to make comparisons of the various cost of attending herzing as opposed to some other school i don't believe that herzing withheld that information", "they certainly would encourage you to come in and speak with an admissions counselor so that they could clearly identify the value for the tuition that you do pay", "i was absolutely well aware as a consumer what the cost would be", "one of the reasons that herzing was a true value to me is that within my testimony i had mentioned i attained an associates degree within a year and a half time as opposed to the traditional two years based on black programming based on the availability of coursework so i think that herzing is doing a very intelligent job of allowing themselves the opportunity on a oneonone basis to sit down with prospective students and explain how their program is differentiated how they are differently situated and valued and giving potential students prospective students all of the facts to know what will my education at herzing cost in comparison to other options other institutions for the same types of pursuits same types of degree programs and the onus is on the individual consumer shopping for their own education and i think it's an advantage as i mentioned that herzing gives the opportunity to encourage their students to come in and talk about that oneonone and not rely on face value information in a website that doesn't tell the whole story", "thank you", "ms carpenter thank you very much", "mr braley you get the prize for going over the farthest", "mrs biggert", "thank you madam chairman and i thank the witnesses for being here and your patience while we had those pesky votes which seem to have taken an awfully long time", "thank you", "my question let's start with dr cortes i went to you know have gone out to visit several of the schools and gotten some information but when we start when this first came up we were talking about why doesn't this disclosure work why if you want to know how a program works in a school", "for example one of the schools i went to and i don't have the numbers exactly but they were all over ninety and this was their school of nursing and ninety two of all those enrolled graduated ninety six of them passed the certification test and ninety nine to one hundred of those that had passed the certification found jobs", "now this seems to me that this is you know this then gives a student or a consumer choice on where they want to go and you know looking at the programs rather than looking at the debt to income determining whether there's a value to students", "is this something that you would see that would work or are there other things besides this you know the way that the gainful employment has been i guess described and is there something else that you think would work thank you madam biggert", "i do agree", "i think it's all about to a certain extent the consumer protection that we're looking at", "if you look at berkeley college today in our website not only you'll get the full tuition clearly stated we have every single indicator of graduation rates debt to default rates we have by degree each degree the level of graduation", "we believe that transparency is very important in our sector", "we make clear that we have a code of conduct that talks about not only academic excellence and student success but then we put that information very clearly that everybody can look and they can compare cost", "for instance in the state of new jersey for example with the lowest we have the lowest tuition increases of any of the institutions in the state of new jersey", "and in fact we have one of the lowest tuition of all the private institutions in new jersey which include of course princeton and other private institutions", "we have the lowest tuition rates", "so we do very clearly look at making sure that our students get the information they need to well one of the things that really impressed me too at these schools is how they worked with the local businesses so that they were able to find jobs for the students", "and the colleges had a rapport with these businesses", "could you address that yes absolutely", "we work very closely with the industry and the advisory from the corporate sector", "every degree has an advisory board so that means that for fashion management or for accounting or finance or marketing we work very closely with the business community for two reasons we want input to make sure our curriculum is uptodate that we look at the changes in the global economy to make sure that we training our students to get into the marketplace but more important we making connections with them in order for our students to get the internships that i mentioned earlier and also for the ability to get them placed once they graduate", "as an example someone mentioned that there were only one career placement at some institution", "we have over twenty career placements professionals making sure that our students from the beginning from the freshman experience all the way up to the senior year they get the level of advice and counsel to make sure thank you", "and i'd like to just ask before my time mr alford would you comment on this yes ma'am", "i think our biggest concern national black chamber of commerce is the whole process of this and the singling out of forprofit schools", "in a nutshell what we want is a fair and a transparent process", "and as i learned in the military leadership one hundred and one is fair and impartial treatment for all", "and i think some are getting less evaluation an unequal evaluation if i may use that term than others and it's quite clear", "community colleges have a lesser graduation rate than forprofit schools but you don't hear talk about that", "i heard talk about the senate hearing that quoted the false gao report even after it was divulged that it was false", "so i think there's some", "it's not the process that i think that makes this country great", "i hope i answered you", "i agree with you i yield back", "thank you very much mr miller", "thank thank you very much", "should go to button pressing school", "for holding this hearing madam chair", "and i want to thank the witnesses for testifying", "mr carnevale i think that you sort of set the stage when you talked about the changes in the economy and in the workplace and then the requirements that have taken both up and down in terms of where you'd get your degree and certificates and the rest of that and that's why many of us had been very strong supporters of the forprofit sector in higher education and believe it that they do fill a need for many students and certainly adult students as they originally start off people who were had to work fulltime and also try to secure an education to acquire new skills or a new job or what have you that they saw on the horizon but sorta like the old saying friends don't let friends drive drunk i have a lot of concern about a sector that i've been an advocate for for a very long time in my thirty seven years on the committee that we've got some outliers here that are giving real heartache to the american taxpayer", "and you can keep saying not you mr carnevale but the panel and other members can keep saying that somehow this only applies to forprofit", "it doesn't only apply for forprofits", "of the fifty five thousand programs mr hinojosa pointed out thirty seven thousand are in public institutions and five thousand are for nonprofit and thirteen thousand forprofit", "and for the public institutions they're there because this is the first president that raised issues about the completion rates of two year institutions which are abysmal", "they're outrageous", "but the suggestion that somehow this is just targeted for forprofit", "i was one of those that went to the administration and said that the original ruling was wrong but the point is that this is the question", "then the members of the panel suggested that this high standard this high standard will force people to leave the field or to cut out nontraditional students", "this high standard is that thirty five of your former students are successfully repaying the principal on their federal loans in their third and fourth year after they leave the school", "what if you were a used car dealer and you went to the bank and said i want to borrow money but seventy of my customers are gonna default i don't think you'd get a loan from the bank for your usedcar business", "but if you're in this business seventy of your customers might default and you're okay for the taxpayer to put up the money", "and you only have to meet that in one out of three years", "one out of three years", "and there's no penalty until you really screw up", "and this is a burden that apparently this industry just can't suffer", "now we're talking about maybe two of the programs are going to be implicated here", "and i suggest and as i had suggested to the industry you might want to look internally and think that you've got some outliers here that you should have dealt with within the associate various associations here", "this is not whether we support forprofit schools or we don't cause all of us have had experiences in our own community in our families of their successes", "this is about what's going on with respect to the taxpayer", "mr alford you asked about what's going on with the department and how they came about this rule", "i just say anecdotally i don't know we have an investigation going on what happened with short sellers and now with the inspector general's office", "i'd say that the congress had listened to the short sellers prior to the financial collapse maybe this nation would be in a different place today but i want to ask what's going on with an institution that says that they're gonna double the volume of the private student loans as corinthian college did to two hundred and forty million and they expect fifty five of their private loan dollars to end up in default", "and their default rate on federal student loans doubled between two thousand and five and two thousand and nine to twenty one and they recently told their investors not the public told their investors that they're gonna manage their default rate by pushing borrowers most likely to default into deferments forbearance and incomebased repayment", "i want to know what's going on there", "i want to know when bridgeport education buys a college and it takes the price of the amount of money spent on education from five thousand to seven hundred per student i know there's great savings in the internet but at the end of that process sixty four of their bachelor's degrees and eighty five of associate degree students are withdrawing from that institution", "what's going on cause when they withdraw they've already given over a part of their pell they've already given over part of their student loans", "their account's running down", "i want to know what's going on with that same institution then which gets eighty six of its money from the federal taxpayers has thirty profit and thirty on marketing", "i want to know what's going on with the ati career institute in texas when the state work board found that three hundred of their employed graduates had no jobs at all and four hundred and twenty seven graduates were not employed as the institute reported they were and the state cut off all of their wia funding but they're still eligible for pell grants and for student loans", "i want to know what's going on", "i want to know when the repayment rate for four out of five of the profit schools receiving the most pell grants and the gi bill is thirty seven and thirty one", "i want to know what's going on", "it's not a question of whether i support private schools forprofit schools or not", "we sit on this side of the dais on behalf of the taxpayers who are on that side of the dais and that's why we have these inquiries and that's why we have a rule that probably does not much more than develop a lot of information and i think it will cause some people swimming at the bottom of the pool to swim a little faster to try to stay off the bottom", "but i think that's a minimum", "that's a minimum that we can ask as members of congress on behalf of the taxpayers", "madam chairman if i just might say i would just say this you know we also want to ask what's going on when indiana illinois and california florida have joined to look at forprofit institutions there", "indiana attorney general asking questions about institutions", "florida investigating eight institutions on violating the unfair business practices", "iowa student default rates", "kentucky job placement recruitment practices", "massachusetts recruitment practices and student loan practices", "mr miller as you know there is an obligation as you know and i appreciate as you know you can you've been very generous with the time and i appreciate it", "you can put whatever your comments are in the record", "dr roe", "i've seen the record it doesn't do so well", "oh thank you", "but i appreciate the offer", "i think i won't give a speech", "i'll try to ask some questions", "i gave the speech already", "i spent twenty four years in school not including kindergarten so i basically overdosed on school and all in the public school system not in the private not in the forprofit", "and dr carnevale makes a great point is the whole purpose is to get an education and hopefully find gainful employment once you leave that institution that will pay", "if the argument is here that it's too expensive to go to school i couldn't argue with that more", "i served as a foundation board president of the college where i attended and helped to raise money to help educate people that were lower income as i was when i went to college", "but to give you an example if the gainful employment rule is to be applied to everybody i looked at georgetown great university just before i came here", "forty one thousand is the tuition and fifty eight thousand to go there for a year", "if you get a job teaching school somewhere after that's over you can never pay that back", "if you're a police officer in johnson city tennessee where i'm from you can never pay that back", "i had a medical student's dad call me the other day and said dr roe he said my son has two hundred and twelve thousand in student loans and he's starting his residency and he'll make about thirty thousand a year just the interest on his student loan is one thousand two hundred a month just the interest", "he didn't have any left to eat after that", "so it's not just forprofit universities it's everybody school is too expensive", "and i couldn't agree with dr carnevale he makes great points", "you should go to the school to get a job to pay for something", "the other thing i think that's a little misleading having been a foundation board president is that when you compare the forprofits the bricks and mortar are not calculated in those tuition fees", "all those million multimillion dollar buildings as mr alfred pointed out that's not amortized into that cost", "so it is in the private tuition that is amortized in the cost", "could you point that out you made a great point a minute ago is that you're not really comparing do you agree with that absolutely sir", "yeah i think i envision ohio state my alma mater university of wisconsin just humongous all paid for by taxpayers", "and ms carpenter made a point of some students and these are many of them are not traditional students in a much smaller classroom setting", "your average freshmen class at ohio state or university of tennessee in freshman english two to five hundred students sometimes watching a video screen", "i have a problem with that and it is true when you get into a smaller classroom setting it is gonna cost more money to do that and i think ms carpenter you made a tremendous point", "information is key so you can go in and make an informed consumer choice", "that's what i did when i went", "my choice was i didn't have the bus money out of town so i knew i was gonna go to school but it was an informed choice and i think that's what you did", "you made a very informed choice about what your needs were", "obviously you were not an eighteen year old as i was seventeen when you started college", "you had a little more of an idea about what you needed to do i didn't", "and graduation rates mr miller makes a tremendous point on that is that if you look at our own state of tennessee where you get a hope scholarship to go to college to junior college to community college or to a fouryear school fifty of our students in two years don't qualify after that", "they lose their hope scholarship because they're not succeeding academically", "and i think if we're going to do this gainful employment rule everybody should have to do the gainful employment rule", "if you're gonna set standards there's no question there probably are some bad actors out there that are not living up and doing what they need to do but everybody ought to have the same standards in this country", "mr alford made that and thank you for your service to our country by the way", "everybody ought to have to apply with the same rules", "if you're gonna do that then private schools should public schools should and forprofit schools should", "dr cortes would you comment on that yeah i do agree with you congressman", "as you know not all forprofit institutions are alike", "do you know for example that there are only ninety four regionally accredited forprofit institutions in this country and puerto rico that's an example of the differences", "berkeley college is a brick and mortar", "we own our buildings", "we pay taxes local federal and state", "we invest back into our community and to our technology", "when you look at our sector we led the sector in technology in distance learning not all out students", "most people assume that forprofits are all online colleges", "they're not", "colleges like ours are eighty years changing lives in the state of new york and new jersey and there are many familyowned businesses that are forprofits that put a significant amount of money in the economic development of the region", "in your folders you have a report that we put together in new york berkeley college and in new jersey", "we have invested in economic development over two hundred and twenty three million in a given year both about economic support to the economy jobs student expenditures building construction", "those are the impacts that the private sector institutions are offering", "it also offers access and choice for students as you did when you chose your institution", "the students come to us because they see the flexibility they seen the quality of many of our institutions and they see the ability to get degrees that they can not have in other places", "in the state of new jersey for example there are only two institutions that offer fashion merchandise degrees and we're one of them", "so they can't go to the public institution because they're full then they come to us and we do a very good job", "thank you madam chairman i want to thank the panel for sticking around for our votes", "i really appreciate you all doing that indulging us and thank you", "you've been a great panel", "i yield back", "thank you drroe", "mr davis thank you very much madam chairman", "and i also want to thank the witnesses for being here", "it seems to me that we are holding a hearing in search of a problem that is not being addressed", "and i say that only because the rules that have been promulgated that have been issued seem to be fair seem to be balanced provides opportunity for correction", "and i was one of those individuals who urged the department as they were having discussions and looking at making new rules to try and make sure that they took into consideration the needs of all the institutions because i represent a large number of forprofit institutions of higher learning", "i also represent a large number of public institutions of higher learning", "so i want everybody to be treated fairly", "as a matter of fact the philosopher camus is supposed to have said one time that i love my country but i also love justice as i love every opportunity that we can find for access to higher education for our citizens", "but i also love transparency", "i love factual information", "i love serious analysis", "i love good counseling and information that will help lead individuals to the kind of choices that will not only improve the quality of their lives but will give them the resources to pay back whatever it is that they owe dr cortes let me ask you", "as you know the continuing resolution that the house leadership offered sought to cut pell grants over a million students by approximately eight hundred and forty five per student", "some republicans have recently described pell grants disparagingly as a welfare handout and highlighted it as a need of substantial funding cut", "how important are pell grants to your students and will a loss or reduction in pell grants harm access to higher education for your students and those who attend your institution thank you for the question congressman davis", "absolutely", "i think the loss of any funds for the students that we serve is gonna impact their ability to access and to persist in college graduation", "i give you an example", "many of our students sometimes in the middle of the year come to us for additional funding that we could provide as institutional aid in order to pay their books in order to get transportation to the school in order for them to pay the rent in their homes", "we talking about the students which i mentioned earlier an average family income of somewhere around twenty five thousand", "so it would be harmful to your very harmful", "extremely harmful thank you", "let me move on because my time is about to expire", "mr alford let me ask you and i've had a great time working with you and the national black chamber of commerce", "i have a great deal of affinity for the work that you do and for your organization and i thank you for it", "thank you sir", "i was struck by your testimony though at one point where you suggest that forprofit schools are the ones that truly are serving lowincome and minority students", "and so i asked what about the hbcus what about the hsis what about the pbis what about these minority serving institutions that are public or notforprofit and do a great job yeah", "and i support them and they are at capacity", "university of wisconsin when i graduated in one thousand nine hundred and seventy it's enrollment was three black", "today two thousand and eleven it's enrollment is three black", "the university of california system that each semester they have fewer and fewer blacks matriculating at those schools", "so the hbcus yes sir but there are a small percentage of the potential we have to educate our people", "the largest hpcu is howard university's eleven thousand", "you get from southern at ten thousand texas southern ten thousand and then you're down to four digits in any of those schools", "they couldn't house forty million a population of forty million people whose children needed higher education", "i would certainly agree with that and indicate that they still have capacity though that is unmet", "but let me thank you for your answer and thank you for participating and i yield back madam chairman", "thank you sir as always", "thank you mr davis", "and now i'd like to recognize mr towns", "thanks very much madam chair", "and let me also thank you for holding this hearing", "i really really appreciate you moving forward with it and i want to thank the witnesses for being here and to say that i know that it's been a long day and been a tough day for many of us in terms of conflicts", "but the point is that i'm happy that you're here", "and let me just say that as i listened to some of my colleagues you know i'm sort of wondering are they thinking about the economic situation that we face across the board the top universities in this country have people that are now unemployed and because of the fact there are just no jobs", "and i think that sometimes you know when we look at things that you know we sort of forget about that when you look at the top universities people coming out no jobs and then we look at the situation we discussed in terms of gainful employment and then we sort of ignore the fact that there's going to be some problems there when it comes to jobs as well", "let me start by saying i support a fair balanced process", "i really do", "and of course i support a fair balance process and i support a good government and i support educational choice but i do not support poor quality institutions i do not support predatory practices", "and i didn't do not support a regulatory process that is not transparent", "i believe that the department's rules leave many bad actors still capable of harming students", "i also believe that the department's rules may adversely impact many quality programs and in turn hinder educational choice for minorities", "first in the family college attendees and economic disadvantaged students but i also think there's some other areas that we need to look into", "and when you look at some of these athletic programs and it's known that there was one university they went for ten years and did not graduate one basketball player", "i mean nobody wants to talk about those kinds of things", "i mean let's look at the real issues of education if we are serious you know across the board rather than just sort of looking at one thing and picking on it and staying with it", "you know i'm also not certain that the process which department came to the rule was entirely fair and balanced", "i'm not convinced of that", "i heard some of my colleagues saying it was fair and balanced", "i'm not sure of that", "there are a number of aspects that are currently undergoing review by the ig of the department and until we have the final report how can we say who won't be able to say it i don't see until we get that information", "so i'm just sort of cautioning my colleagues", "mr afrin let me just sort of raise this with you very quickly", "i share your concerns regarding the disproportionate impact that dysregulation will have on minority students as well as your concern regarding the process by which the regulation was crafted", "i agree with many of my colleagues here today that there are numerous good things being done by career colleges though i also agree that there are a few bad actors in the mix", "some are citing examples of questionable recruitment practices and i've heard all of that and low retention rates you know however we need to look at that also with the economic situation you know if you in school and then you have an economic crisis in the family what are you gonna do you're going to drop out", "i mean so i think that sometimes we just look at these things and we sorta looking at them with tunnel vision and i don't think we can do that", "i think that we need to look and highlight in terms of a lot of people that as a result of these institutions have been able to go on and live a very decent life and make a major contribution to many people and i think we should not forget that", "so mr alford what do you suggest that we do real quickly", "i think we need to go back and review this in a fair and transparent process when it's open", "i think when a short seller writes an article subprime goes to college and he's talking about the gainful employment rule how they're gonna make this happen and they're gonna make big money i think something's wrong with that", "and that same individual can go into the inner circle of a federal agency and talk to executives of a federal agency and make suggestions talking about mr eiseman", "it stinks and something should be done about that i think", "i think we need to go back and punt and reevaluate this", "my time is without merit madam chair", "and i would like to just ask a unanimous consent that the statement by mr alcee hastings from the state of florida that his statement be included in the record", "without objection", "thank you mr towns i yield back", "mr bishop", "thank you madam chair", "i appreciate your holding the hearing", "and i apologize for arriving so late", "another committee i was on had a markup", "but this is an issue that i'm very interested in", "well let me start", "ms carpenter i read your testimony", "i found it very moving and i congratulate you and herzing university on doing such a good job", "there was one particular statement that you made that i just want to highlight", "you say my associate's degree from herzing university has proven to be of high value to me and my employer", "my employment history with quest software is but one example that proves that fact i know you know this but i think it's important to say for the record that if such a statement could be made even in much more modest form by your fellow graduates herzing university or any other university that graduates students who can say that has absolutely nothing to fear from this regulation", "nothing", "so congratulations i'm glad your experience went well", "and what this regulation is designed to deal with as mr miller said are the outliers not those who are doing the work of providing access to a higher education and to help people get the american dream", "and i'm glad you're on your path to the american dream", "i want to pick up on where mr miller is questioning was", "this regulation in my view", "and i was one who urge the department to withdraw the first pass at this i felt that it was an unfair regulation and i frankly applaud the department for going back and having several iterations of this", "and i won't engage you mr alford on whether or not the process was transparent but i think reviewing ninety thousand comments i think that's something that is not to be taken lightly but here's the environment in which we're in this regulation says that if thirty five of an institution's former students in years three and four of their repayment status make at least one payment that is an institution that is satisfying the gainful employment regulation", "i find it impossible to believe that someone can consider that regulation to be an onerous or arbitrary or unfair regulation", "and let me put it in the context that we are in", "here's the context that we're in the budget resolution that passed the house of representatives if it were to ever take on the force of law let us hope it does not would cut the pell grant maximum to three thousand from five thousand five hundred and fifty to three thousand", "if we don't act we will have no perkins loan program come two thousand and fourteen", "hr one which thankfully will never take on the force of law eliminated seog", "so here's the republican vision of title iv student financial aid programs no perkins no seog a three thousand pell grant maximum and work study at its current level", "that's the republican vision that's what they've voted for", "now i ask you in that context how long do you think the federal government will be willing to guarantee ninety billion a year of student loans if in years three and four we consider it onerous impossible to achieve of a sixty five default rate in years three and four i would suggest to you the underpinning of the finances of the forprofit sector and frankly every other sector which is the guaranteed student loan program", "we're not gonna be able to count on that guaranteed student loan program if we're looking at that level of default", "and yet that is in fact what this regulation contemplates", "so i would urge anyone who's taking the position that this is somehow excessive to assess it in that context because i think all of us have the same goal here which is to see to it that students of modest means get a chance to go to college", "i'm a former college administrator i'm a former financial aid director", "i've spent my entire adult life dealing with the issues of access and affordability", "they mean a great deal to me", "and i'm very fearful that if we're not careful careful stewards of taxpayer money then that money is gonna go away and so i view this regulation frankly as a modest means of the congress and the administration discharging its responsibility to be careful stewards of taxpayer money", "so i just really ask you to look at it in that context", "let me then go i'm sorry my time is expired madam chair", "i appreciate your indulgence thank you", "i want to thank you mr bishop", "i will point out to you a note that congressman roe has just handed to me that points out that in two thousand and six the amount spent on pell grants was one hundred and twenty four billion and the amount scheduled to be spent on pell grants for two thousand and twelve is forty nine billion", "would the gentelady yield let me go on to the", "i'm just putting out a fact there for you", "i was going to put that fact in context", "okay", "let me if i could let me recognize congresswoman speier", "i'd like to finish this up no later than two o'clock if at all possible", "madam chair thank you very much", "and i want to thank all of the witnesses who are here", "again we all apologize for the frantic pace that we operate under", "it doesn't make a lot of sense from time to time", "i think this is a very important hearing but i've got to tell you at the outset i think what the department of education has recommended is embarrassingly small", "i would challenge any of my colleagues to go back to their districts and say to their constituents that we are funding many forprofit colleges at ninety", "now mind you if we're funding you at ninety you are government schools", "the university of california is a public institution and the funding from the state is less than twenty", "but you are forprofit schools and ninety of your money in some cases is coming from the federal government", "and i might also point out that in one of the colleges that was highlighted bridgepoint education twenty nine of their spending in two thousand and ten was for marketing and thirty was for profit so only forty of the money at that institution was spent on students", "i would challenge any of us to go back to our districts and say this is good government", "this committee is about dealing with waste and i would suggest to you as mr bishop did earlier that if you can't make this i mean this is embarrassingly low as a standard and if you can't make these standards then you shouldn't be in business because frankly you are government operated institutions", "you are funded by the government and if you can't make these very modest standards then you shouldn't be in business", "now here's where my concern is", "this reminds me of the financial meltdown", "this reminds me of subprime loans", "this reminds me of the same institutions that targeted lowincome people for subprime loans to get into loans they shouldn't get into and then they went belly up and the country went belly up", "one of the institutions has said that it is looking at student profiles for recruitment welfare moms with kids pregnant women recently divorced low selfesteem vocational rehabilitation experienced a recent death physically and mentally abused drug rehab fired or laid off", "that is the target population that some of these institutions these for profit institutions are seeking candidates from", "now my concern is since these actual standards don't apply to the military to veterans guess what's gonna happen we're gonna to have some outliers i'm not suggesting that you are but some outliers going out and targeting our veterans and we've already had cases", "frontline recently did an evaluation and actually said to a marine sergeant who was enrolled at the art institute told the recruiter they suffered from ptsd and was ensured that the college had special tutoring programs for veterans and he later flunked out of his photography degree program for being unable to finish the work and receiving no help from the college", "or former marine wade cutler and guardsman brad seliga also in the frontline report who were hired by ashford university specifically to recruit fellow veterans both of whom quit and discuss with the way veterans were being suckered out of their gi bill benefits", "now my question to mr carnevale do you think that we are going to see an engagement now by these forprofits to focus on veterans because they're not gonna be subject to these modest standards that are being suggested by the department of education well i don't want to make this a character assault on people who run these institutions but i used to run for profit operations and i can tell you i would that is i would go after the populations where the money was and the regulation wasn't", "in the end i have no problem with that", "my problem would be what's the outcome and unless we start judging these things by the outcome it's good that forprofits chase after abused women if they serve them that's fine and that's what i think this regulation does", "it demands that we use outcome standards to judge the use of public funds efficiently and if we don't start looking at efficiency in postsecondary education there's gonna be no more equity cause we can't afford it", "i might also", "thank you mr carnevale", "i might also point out that the university of phoenix received over eighty four million in post gi bill benefits and it increased its recruiters to the military from ninety one in two thousand and three to over four hundred and fifty two", "so i'm putting word out to all the forprofits", "i'm gonna watch what happens to the profiles of veterans in your programs because we need to protect them", "and we are not gonna have them waste their great gi bill benefits on institutions that don't deliver", "i yield back", "thank you ms speier", "you of course can put anything in the record that you would like", "ms waters", "thank you very much madam chair", "i'm very appreciative for you allowing me to take part in this hearing today", "i have a long history dealing with private postsecondary private schools", "i come from the california state legislature where i created a whole body of law relative to private postsecondaries and private schools based on my experiences in south los angeles", "i ran job training programs there and i watched the recruitment methods", "i watched the kind of messaging that was done by many of these private postsecondary institutions and private colleges where they raised the hopes and dreams of a lot of poor people who certainly did not realize any careers or real jobs from the pell grant money that they allowed to be spent in these institutions and it was disheartening", "and that's why i've spent so many years on this", "i do believe that this potential scandal is gonna be bigger than the subprime housing meltdown scandal where many of our homeowners were tricked into mortgages and loans that resulted in foreclosures", "i have over the years involved myself with any number of these institutions corinthian itt kaplan on and on and on and the record is replete with what they have done", "i take particularly exception to this messaging that talks about how well you're doing for minorities and how if you are not offering opportunities for minorities they're not gonna be able to be educated or to have careers or jobs", "i think mr alford you stated that gainful employment regulations will harm minority students but students attending these institutions are already being exploited", "students at forprofit institutions represent twelve of all higher education students twenty six of all student loans and forty six of all student loan dollars in default", "how would you propose that we protect these students from being saddled with debt and low prospects for job opportunities and how is it that these very very mild conditions of gainful employment that was just described by ms speier is gonna harm the private school industry mr alford i have a lot of relatives that have grown up in your district", "and those who received education many from forprofit schools are doing well raising families and living prosperous lives", "those relatives of mine around 73rd and hoover and going further into south central who did not receive education are either dead in jail or on welfare", "education is the key", "so i don't think hurting an opportunity a vehicle to educate someone is a productive thing to do", "i don't know what you just said", "i was listening for some facts", "i thank you for sharing with me that little vignette about what happened it is was real ma'am it is real", "but you have no facts", "so it does not resignate at all", "i want to ask a little bit", "well i have something here", "i understand there's been a lot of talk about the rulemaking process", "i would like to submit the list of program integrity negotiators for the record", "the negotiated rulemaking included several different types of stakeholders all of who stood to be impacted by the rule", "the following communities of interests were represented students consumer advocacy organizations two year public institutions four year public institutions private nonprofit institutions private forprofit institutions college presidents admissions offices business offices financial aid administrators regional accreditators national accreditors workforce development officers lending community representatives test publishers and state higher education officials", "i'd like to submit that to the record", "without objection ms waters", "and i will point out to you that your time is up", "thank you very much i appreciate the opportunity", "sorry i was not madam chair able to get into all of this discussion about shortselling because i really do want to reveal something about what is taking place in that whole area", "i will back the balance of my time", "feel free to put other pieces in the record", "we have all done our best to express our appreciation to the members of the panel for the disjointed hearing that we had today", "we appreciate your being with us on a friday afternoon", "some of you came from long distances and we understand the hassle 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{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca1.case-16-1046.2017-02-09.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.ca1.case-16-1046", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca1.case-16-1046.2017-02-09.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [6920, 2150, 14030, 19230, 16373, 9950, 5720, 3150, 4410, 9440, 6540, 8410, 4363, 3870, 4740, 5320, 9633, 5420, 6890, 4240, 3660, 4533, 2920, 12170, 4170, 4130, 14757, 8256, 4607, 4290, 5750, 18820, 8030, 5970, 6030, 7810, 6610, 1650, 5911, 12239, 2120, 3110, 8320, 5140, 5000, 11820, 16620, 11520, 21273, 11100, 13580, 5854, 1259, 2667, 14537, 4666, 8194, 13373, 4250, 2753, 16430, 2960, 7795, 8325, 3700, 3635, 1911, 1967, 6200, 2750, 9670, 4650, 4780, 6963, 23034, 5200, 7420, 22380, 5320, 12430, 9910, 5560, 3360, 3820, 2680, 5790, 8003, 7760, 10303, 10090, 20050, 2720, 4270, 1710, 12250, 5570, 5120, 10930, 5080, 7720, 3763, 5397, 5090, 5030, 3470, 20700, 5540, 3040, 11040, 8670, 5850, 5610, 3190, 12540, 9930, 6140, 11500, 8220, 6297, 28333, 2900, 5140, 5700, 1590, 8460, 5407, 4546, 8080, 4900, 5760, 6063, 4870, 6243, 12280, 7590, 11670, 6850, 5568, 833, 1000], "label": ["the next case is one hundred and sixty one thousand and forty six united states versus janice troisi", "good morning your honors may it please the court", "the sole issue on this appeal is whether the evidence at janice troisi's bench trial was sufficient to support her conviction for healthcare fraud conspiracy and ten substantive counts of healthcare fraud", "more specifically did the government prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she possessed the requisite mens rea meaning that she acted willfully with a bad purpose that is to say with knowledge that her conduct was unlawful and with a specific intent to defraud", "the parties seem to agree that that's the requisite legal standard as set forth in this court's recent decision in aguila from two thousand and fifteen although the recorded twenty eight j letter filed by the government last week may cast some doubt on that front", "in any event this case involves there are several facts in this case which distinguish it from many other healthcare fraud cases", "first in this case the patients actually did receive services", "services which may well have benefited them", "and second miss troisi was a salaried employee not an owner", "and other than so she had no financial stake in the receipt of revenues or the company's business plan other than to keep her job", "now the government points to really three bodies of evidence in supporting its case on mens rea", "first they point to miss troisi's hiring training and management practices", "that is to say she hired nurses right out of nursing school", "she trained them allegedly inadequately", "and she was an aggressive tough boss", "and the evidence certainly supported all of those allegations", "none of them i submit satisfied in any way shape or form the government's burden of proof on mens rea", "hiring nurses out of nursing school this is not i submit the most desirable nursing job in the world", "these nurses were being paid they were having to go to people's homes they were being paid on a per patient basis", "if her training wasn't as good as it should've been that's not a crime", "and she was no doubt a very tough boss", "judge woodlock described her as a lady marine drill sergeant", "that does not mean she had a criminal state of mind", "second the government point and the government asserts that she was familiar with this body of applicable regulations an therefore that she knew exactly what the requirements were", "and she knew that the requirements were not being complied with", "and i submit that is simply not supported by the evidence", "what about the what about the striking fact this is the documentary evidence the striking fact that we're talking about a very large number of recipients of these home health care services that the care plan seemed almost to be borrowed", "they just seem to be rather than individualized as you might expect if someone was really examining the needs of an individual patients", "they just seem to be the same plan over and over and over again", "and surely she was responsible for filling out these plans and signing off on them", "isn't that rather a striking fact well it is", "and and if she had a good faith belief that these patients needed services the same services over and over well that they needed that hundreds of individuals needed the same type of care that they needed skilled home nursing services", "so there's no doubt that she facilitated paperwork to make sure that they continue to be eligible for those services", "and that these services would fit within and would be reimbursable", "but that may have been sloppy it may have been misfeasance", "there should've been more individualized attention and those forms should've been filled out on a more individualized basis", "but that doesn't prove that she knew that what she was doing wasn't lawful and that she had a specific intent to defraud", "these regulations are not simple", "there's a ninety three page chapter in the medicare benefits manual that's in evidence", "and the crux of the standard that is that it would be that we're taking a considerable and taxing effort for the patient to leave the home", "i mean this is not crystal clear standard", "there is plenty of in play in those journals", "particularly when you're dealing with a population of people who are elderly or have a whole variety of infirmities", "there is nothing in her resume that suggests she had any expertise in this area at all", "she had never worked for a home health care agency before", "and so their assertion that she understood the stuff backwards and forwards and knew darn well that what she was doing was unlawful simply is not supported by the facts", "they claimed that she what about her instruction of the nurses to put aside their own observations and conclusions about the status of the patient", "whether this was home care whether they were in need of skilled nursing services and always fill out the form in the same way", "and then when a nurse did not comply with those instructions she went in using the same color of ink and made corrections to the forms in order to qualify these patients for medicare reimbursement", "isn't that a bit of a smoking gun it certainly was i think an important arrow in the government's quiver at trial", "she clearly as somebody who had been a nurse for decades essentially trusted her instincts about what these patients needed over the instincts of these novice nurses", "and she was and she basically with the novice nurses on all of these occasions", "no your honor she personally where she", "no no your honor she did not", "and and having made a apparently some blanket determination that this population of patients needed these kinds of services she made sure the paperwork fit the bill and she did that", "and the evidence is certainly clear and overwhelming that she did that", "so one thing that troubled me about the case was what her motive was to do all of that", "and the government says well she actually is not the job that she's promoted to director of nursing shortly after she's hired", "and i assume she did get some pay raises", "she was not a direct beneficiary", "but from your point of view is it that she had no incentive whatsoever to participate in this fraud she just didn't want to rock the boat well your honor i mean she had it it was a job", "it was a decently paying job", "so in that sense i suppose that would provide her with an incentive to go along with what she was expected to do", "and that was to make sure the paperwork in fact supported the continuation of these services", "she was promoted to director of clinical services i think", "i'm sorry that it's not just a continuation", "there are new patients you're right you're right", "being added every week you're right yes", "the initiation of services and then the continuation of services once they were originally presented", "i certainly can see that your honor", "she was originally hired i believe in october of two thousand and ten and was promoted to director of clinical services two months later", "and there's not a lot of evidence of what she was doing during those two months", "the bulk of the evidence was after she had taken that job", "i believe that the evidence was the predecessor in that position left around that time so", "and was there evidence that the predecessor had not similarly instructed the nurses that this was something new she brought with her the evidence at trial focused on what happened after ms troisi was there", "i don't recall a lot of testimony about what had happened with her predecessor", "although there certainly was testimony from dr wilking that the same course of conduct had been going on for a number of years", "but wasn't there some if you could call it guilty stated blind evidence in this case in the sense that shortly after she and dr wilking became aware of this investigation she made some statement to you and came to show how she was vulnerable because of the large numbers of forms she had filled out in the same way", "there was testimony that she showed on the statement suggesting that she she knew she was in trouble", "well yes your honor after the fbi basically raided the business she did express concern that since she had a role in doing all this paperwork that she could be in trouble", "so i don't think that that is sufficient to demonstrate that while she was doing it that she knew that she was violating the law", "but once the fbi came in of course she was concerned who wouldn't have been i thank the court", "good morning kelly lawrence for the united states", "just briefly to address the twenty eight j letter that was raised by defense counsel", "the government simply submitted that to clarify its position", "i believe we do agree on the standard of review as set forth in this court's decision in aguila", "just wanted to clarify that we weren't advocating a specific intent standard like the ones set forth in roxof v cheak which the statute itself prohibits", "as i read the the defendant's brief and as i hear him today speak about the evidence to support the conviction", "i don't hear any disagreement about the actions that the defendant took in terms of training the nurses altering the oasis patient assessment forms", "filling out and signing the plans of care the form 485's or that maintaining a separate file of correspondence with treating physicians who had asked to services to stop", "that evidence is in the record and the government believes fully supports the defendant's conviction but there was more and as to her consciousness of guilt and as to the systemic and sort of thorough scheme to defraud and her role in it the actions the defendant took went beyond just doing her job", "the hiring of recent nursing school graduates", "it may be because they that's an easy way to get nurses into this type of business", "it also served a different purpose", "and as reflected in the nurse's testimony the defendant bullied and manipulated them in a way that she couldn't perhaps do with a more experienced nurse who had knowledge of home health care and medicare regulations", "this allowed the defendant to maintain control over the nurses and their visits in a way that furthered the fraud", "she when they questioned her judgment about correcting the form she just told them to do it", "when they asked to stop seeing a patient who refused to be seen or who was never home she said keep going and if they didn't keep going she threatened and then did take a patient away which caused them to lose income", "so this wasn't just an happenstance that perhaps recent nursing school grads would enter this business", "what was her incentive to do all of this her incentive although it has to be inferred from the evidence", "it suggests that she wanted to be director of nursing and she did it", "and she was a very aggressive person by all accounts through the testimony of the various witnesses at trial", "and she may have been an ambitious person who wanted to be a leader and a director of clinical nursing", "she did receive slight pay raises but no evidence of this lining her pocket", "the government agrees with the defendant that there wasn't evidence of that at trial", "the defendant also did have years is the evidence clear she started all of these practices in the two months before she got her promotion it is not clear and the court district court restricted testimony about the prior nursing directors activities sharon richardson", "in order to keep the jury focused on these two defendants and what they had done", "so there isn't evidence about what had happened before", "it seems from the way it was presented that it couldn't have been that she continued practices that she didn't necessarily create them however she brought to bear her own personality and her own style", "and she did fully embrace the role in terms of controlling these nurses and and telling them to go out and keep doing the visits", "i would also note she she did admit that she was responsible for and the nurses confirmed this filling out the plans of care", "which were identical for all the patients regardless of their specific medical conditions or needs", "and she recertified those patients as well", "moreover i think that one of the more damning aspects of the testimony that was given at trial is that when nurses primary care physicians and even patients ask for those services to stop she refused", "and when the primary care physicians contacted her and said i didn't authorize this why are you seeing my patients please stop the services she just simply ignored them", "she argued sometimes and disputed that they weren't needed but she also ignored them", "and when the face to face requirement went into effect she would simply send out the fax asking the doctors to confirm the services were necessary and that the facetoface encounter had occurred", "and if the doctors refused she signed the form and had dr wilkings sign the form too and submitted the papers to medicare", "in the government's view this shows ample knowledge and intent to defraud beyond simply just doing her job", "did i understand you to say earlier in your argument that when the attending doctor for the elderly patient said don't provide these services he doesn't meet or protested the then she kept those letters separately in a separate file that's evidence of consciousness of guilt", "and the government's view that is evidence of consciousness of guilt", "and as an evidentiary was it in the record the evidence is in the record yes", "that's when the search warrant was executed they found a file of correspondence in her office", "correspondence in her office", "the district court i just to be clear the district court noted in rendering the verdict at the bench trial that he viewed that evidence could go either way", "he didn't rely on it specifically in favor of the government but it was something that is in the record", "and the government argued demonstrated her knowledge and intent to defraud", "and what i hear the defendant arguing today is simply asking the court to draw different inferences from the evidence which is essentially uncontested here", "that her actions with respect to her role dna demonstrated fraud", "and this is quite well known as the standard for sufficiency reviewers to draw the inferences in favor of the government", "and when the court does that the government submits that there's no doubt that she was guilty of these crimes", "ms lawrence it's just i've heard from the case", "your office has prosecuted healthcare fraud for a very long time", "is it still a priority of your office and why do we keep seeing so many of these cases i would say i believe it is a priority of the office", "i can't give you a ranking of the different priorities but it is still very much part of of the prosecution and our investigations", "and i'm not sure i understand the kind of case it's a priority because so much this activity is taking place despite years of prosecution", "i believe it continues to be a priority for the federal government and the department of justice which makes it a priority for our office as well", "if you'd like additional information i can seek it from in the office", "thank you", "thank you"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.ca1.case-16-1046/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca1_DOT_case-16-1046/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca1_DOT_case-16-1046_DOT_2017-02-09_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "gov.uscourts.ca1.case-16-1046/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca1_DOT_case-16-1046/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca1_DOT_case-16-1046_DOT_2017-02-09_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "gov.uscourts.ca1.case-16-1046/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca1_DOT_case-16-1046/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca1_DOT_case-16-1046_DOT_2017-02-09_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca1.case-17-2114.2018-07-26.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.ca1.case-17-2114", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca1.case-17-2114.2018-07-26.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [5000, 1631, 1349, 3064, 1346, 4710, 8847, 4466, 13440, 4240, 24237, 3553, 7340, 7140, 17850, 11540, 12210, 14793, 2120, 8770, 16747, 1783, 1461, 3042, 5040, 3183, 5000, 13832, 13151, 10090, 1020, 6450, 16540, 8247, 8823, 6740, 8930, 7900, 9728, 1233, 4739, 5250, 833, 7427, 33093, 1650, 26240, 7110, 7184, 2158, 3498, 13100, 2250, 1680, 9630, 1620, 1390, 10930, 10020, 8940, 4913, 10360, 20833, 2050, 9360, 12330, 6311, 5599, 5672, 15358, 3863, 10987, 4760, 3820, 833, 3359, 2678, 1460, 978, 1000, 1623, 3380, 9430, 2900, 4007, 10250, 4340, 5180, 2895, 4145, 1719, 1451, 7994, 9489, 2940, 2314, 833, 8100, 7475, 2788, 5140, 2233, 8087, 1687, 1382, 4161, 2460, 1125, 4574, 2411, 1072, 2221, 8519, 2552, 13839, 6380, 7220, 4154, 3686, 11233, 5173, 5877, 6215, 4135, 4155, 3115, 5946, 3181, 2573, 1806, 2324, 2365, 4325, 7013, 4277, 6050, 2600, 3170, 1229, 6244, 3037, 6242, 4778, 3453, 7890, 1383, 6258, 6479, 10090, 1250, 1133, 3357, 2688, 4992, 7496, 6507, 2077, 833, 17600, 19210, 11463, 5010, 8118, 6172, 6501, 833, 1000], "label": ["number one hundred and seventy two thousand one hundred and fourteen francis h woodward versus the united states", "morning mr segal", "morning your honor", "may i reserve one minute for rebuttal please yes you may", "thank you", "may it please the court bruce segal representing frank woodward", "your honor this case began when my client mr woodward was indicted on july 27th one thousand nine hundred and ninety", "believe it or not that's twenty three years ago tomorrow to the day", "and when one reviews the course on services law and the evolution of line services laundering during the twenty three years i've had the privilege of representing mr woodward", "it is evident that there has been a dramatic shrinking of the scope of that law", "most recently in the mcdonald decision by the supreme court and our position is that the two counts remaining out of the twenty eight on which was to woodward was originally charged are now rendered invalid as a result of fundamental errors in the trial created by the mcdonald decision", "those fundamental errors take two forms", "one is the sufficiency of the evidence and the second is on the instructions given", "both of which are deficient under the newly refined standard imposed by mcdonald", "so in terms of the sufficiency of the evidence it is our position that the conduct for which mr woodward was convicted no longer constitutes a theft of laundered services as redefined under mcdonald", "and the beginning of that analysis is the twopronged mechanism which mcdonald's sets out for determining what an official act is", "and then twostep process is at first you have to identify a particular matter or cause a controversy that is within the jurisdiction of the public official", "and secondly you have to show a particular actions or decisions he took or he made with respect to those causes or concerns in evaluating the evidence in the woodward trial", "it falls short on a number of grounds", "first of all i'll deal very quickly with the type of evidence which i think clearly is no longer an issue under mcdonald", "it was a great deal of emphasis on the greater access that mr sawyer the lobbyist for john hancock had to mr woodward as a result of the gratuities allegedly all the meetings he had with him and generalities of that sort", "that's the evidence", "there was evidence to that effect", "what was the instruction the instruction", "instruction didn't reference access at all did it the instruction did not reference actions at all your honor", "the instruction access did not no", "the instructions did not emphasize access", "it emphasized an intent in receiving the gratuities to be influenced in the performance of official duties but not any requirement of actually performing official acts within the parameters of mcdonald", "but judge woodlock pointed out in his opinion denying pointed out several official acts that he felt the evidence reasonably related to woodword's conduct", "they were bills that were introduced into the legislature and either passed by the committee that woodward coach in or bottled up by that committee", "he did your honor", "and respectfully we believe the district judge abusive discretion in arriving at that conclusion", "and i say that for a number of reasons where the evidence that the district judge pointed to in support of that conclusion falls far short of the mcdonald's standard is in the second prong of that standard", "showing that woodward made a decision or took action with respect to those particular bills", "i don't think there's any question but bills themselves constitute a subject matter or concern within the first stage of the process of the mechanism", "and it's the second step where the problem lies because look at the evidence that we're talking about here", "the evidence was that as the cochair of the insurance committee woodward carried bills in the legislature", "mcdonald doesn't address that issue though does it i thought mcdonald makes it clear that access showing access alone is not enough", "mcdonald does not say that an official act cannot be the act of one does as the chairman of a committee in doing those things that wouldn't nix to bill", "that's correct your honor", "so it's not a big problem if your coram nobis i don't think it does your honor", "because again i'm focusing on the we can only rule for you of the extent of mcdonald", "i'm sorry", "we can only rule for you if we extended mcdonald from the case of access to the case of carrying legislation", "right and what i'm suggesting is that a fair reading of mcdonald requires great rigor and precision in evidence that woodward took action or made decisions with respect to particular identified matters causes a concern and where the other i thought some courts have accepted this stream of benefits idea post mcdonald the steady stream of benefits idea concept may have some vitality in the wake of mcdonald", "but only to this extent your honor", "it would still have to be the actions of the legislator would still have to be tethered to the gratuities received and you'd have to show some specificity and precision in terms of what actions were engaged in in the future with it was the lunches and the life for him carrying legislation as the head of the committee", "there was no evidence your honor of any action that mr woodward took in carrying legislation", "they were generalized descriptions of what happened in the nature of carrying legislation", "the problem is when it got to the specifics", "it's inferential basically it was two problems", "number one is there was an assumption piled on assumption piled on inference that we assume if woodward was the chair of the committee that he must have done a b and c with respect to carrying the penalty", "that's a sufficiency point", "that's not a mcdonald point", "well i think it's a combination of the two your honor because mcdonald requires that kind of specificity and precision in terms of the action of the legislature", "and we don't get it where it is", "it's very generalized here i'm sorry", "but not only is it inferential point but that fact finder has got to have some room to make some reasonable inferences", "but it seems to me that your argument completely overlooks or extinguishes the difference between coram nobis review and direct review", "if this were a direct review of woodward's conviction some of these arguments might have some persuasive power", "might but on coram nobis review we have a much more rigorous standard", "coram verses described quoting indecisions of your honor or is it an extraordinary remedy and there's no question that it is designed to be such", "i do believe however that in meeting the standard of fundamental error if one can show that in the wake of a us supreme court decision that comes after the trial the evidence on which the defendant was convicted no longer was criminal that does rise to the level of fundamental error", "that warren said extraordinary remedy", "but as judge barren pointed out mcdonald doesn't say that the acts described in judge woodlock's most recent rescript was not criminal", "you can make an argument that an extension of mcdonald might lead to that result but you can't say that mcdonald doesn't deal with the passage of legislation or the carrying", "what it means to carry a bill through the legislature on how that relates to the hobbs act at all", "those would certainly relate to meet the standard of the first crime your honor", "or describing a cause for concern or question within the jurisdiction of mr woodward as a legislator", "the evidence however is remarkable in how generalized and amorphous it is rather than demonstrating specific actions or decisions on the part of mr woodward on the instructions", "i'd like to emphasize one point we did not make in the brief and that your honor", "and that is that the description of what an official act is in the context of the mail fraud statute came only in the description of the state gratuity statute", "requiring that gratuity be received for because of an official act", "this is not a requirement and was not described as a requirement", "time is up", "if you did not make it in your brief i don't know how you're gonna make it now", "i suggest you file a 28j letter", "try it that way", "okay thank you your honor", "thank you", "good morning your honor", "may it please the court sonia ballston for the united states", "as this court said in george the writ of coram nobis lies at the far end of the continuum ranking from direct appeal to initial as successive collateral attacks", "it requires an error of the most fundamental character", "and that must denote something more than an error simpliciter", "as my opposing colleagues seems to concede at this point that requires a showing of insufficiency that the act that the defendant committed no longer constitutes criminal activity", "we would agree that if that could be shown that would satisfy the standard", "but the evidence here was more than sufficient as the district court pointed out in its opinion", "instructional error is not enough", "and that's i think what he's conceded here at oral argument", "the instructions in any event were sufficient", "i'm just not following", "now you seem to be just applying the same sufficiency standards that you would do on direct", "if there is no evidence in the record demonstrating that the defendant committed an act that remains criminal", "so don't have to start with that part remains criminal", "just under mcdonald yes yes", "okay right i will", "before you get to sufficiency what does mcdonald mark off as the kind of things yes that are not criminal", "and does mcdonald tell us very much about whether this type of thing is or is not that's right your honor and it doesn't", "mcdonald has nothing to say about what happened in this case", "this case was a bribery case about the enactment of legislation about the defendant's votes", "about his actions in the legislature", "and the arguments to the contrary at this point are essentially all the tax on the stream of benefits idea of which this court has reaffirmed in the wake of mcdonald and the tabaris case", "and he keeps talking about specificity", "that there's specificity required", "like we had to identify the one particular thing that got bought by this bribe", "and that's not how bribery law works", "that rule would be simply absurd", "it would be easy to avoid and no one would ever be convicted of bribery again", "but our government will be sold down the river", "that's not what the law requires", "it's not what mcdonald requires", "i think the district court's opinion clearly lays out all of the evidence here and did a wonderful job of explaining why relief is not required", "unless the court has further questions", "what are the official acts that we are talking about here now his actions as chairman of the committee yes so there were several categories of official actions", "one would be carrying bills through the legislature which is not necessarily flowing from his responsibility of chairman", "but something that he did with most of the insurance bills that were before the legislature during his time as chair", "testimony can be found on appendix one hundred and twenty eight to one hundred and twenty nine", "his votes are clearly official acts", "you look at the evidence on j appendix one hundred and two hundred to show that an all but thirty one out of six hundred insurance and bills he voted the way john hancock wanted him to vote", "his role was a gatekeeper as sheriff the committee that he had the power to keep bills off the floor", "you can find evidence of that in joint appendix one hundred and sixteen to one hundred and twenty five and two hundred and fifty three", "and his role in blocking the nonsmokers bill time and time again which was a particular concern to his benefactor", "you can find evidence of that at joint appendix one hundred and thirty to one hundred and thirty two", "the record here was replete with official acts but still qualifying for mcdonald", "and those were the things the government was arguing in this case", "if you look at the closing argument in pages nine hundred and thirty four nine hundred and thirty five nine hundred and thirty seven nine hundred and forty three", "those are the things that government is hammering on to get this conviction", "and the government didn't argue access", "mcdonald just puts assets off the road", "and it doesn't even say it's irrelevant", "it just says it alone is not enough", "so you have to have access going towards something else", "but the joint appendix here at seven hundred and seventy one and seven hundred and seventy six there was discussion about whether the government is gonna argue access to the jury", "and the district court says i don't think that's the theory the government says no that's not our theory", "we're not gonna argue that so even before the jury instructions came out that was off the table", "that wasn't the theory of conviction", "so this has nothing to do with mcdonald", "it's very unlike that case", "do you have a view about the collateral consequences part of the district court to ruling sure", "so the district court i don't think they are folding one way or the other", "it just said i'm not gonna deny relief on this basis and i think that's sufficient", "you don't have to get to that to deny the relief here for the same reasons the district court didn't", "both because of the fundamental error and the interest of justice point", "this court has never decided and georgia specifically reserved the question about whether these state pensions can qualify", "and it's not necessarily to decide here", "so again it would be an advisory opinion but i think the key issues there unresolved in this record", "they're are factual questions about whether the contributions were refunded and how much that was", "and so what the marginal difference between how much of an annuity that would buy at the time that it was refunded versus what the monthly pension is and those faster just undeveloped", "so the defendant bears the burden", "he hasn't carried that burden", "there's no evidence in the record that would carry that burden", "and on the address ability point he hasn't shown one way or the other", "but it necessarily would be automatically reinstated", "that opinion that he cites the skelly opinion is about an appeal of someone who's on the verge of getting kicked out of the program who hasn't yet been kicked out", "there are no cases that i'm aware of and he hasn't cited any about somebody who's been kicked out and trying to get back in", "you should have found the district court", "thank you", "my sister neglects the fact that the type of descriptions and evidence of carrying bills or that woodward bills were reported favorably of the committee between one thousand nine hundred and eighty five and one thousand nine hundred and ninety", "joint appendix one hundred and thirty four to one hundred and thirty six gives a flavor for the amorphous and generalized type of evidence that is untied to any specific action that woodward took in terms of making a decision or taking an action on a particular question matter or concern", "all of these actions when i read the record there were approximately six hundred bills of interest in the life insurance industry of which he only opposed thirty one", "well that is a i don't believe perspective that's a fair reading your honor", "because we show thirty one specific instances with the bill numbers bill dates bill information that was not the case", "the government showed no specifics and all of their evidence was outside the statute of limitations", "no specific actions by woodward were shown after july twenty seven one thousand nine hundred and ninety", "thank you", "thank you"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.ca1.case-17-2114/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca1_DOT_case-17-2114/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca1_DOT_case-17-2114_DOT_2018-07-26_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "gov.uscourts.ca1.case-17-2114/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca1_DOT_case-17-2114/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca1_DOT_case-17-2114_DOT_2018-07-26_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "gov.uscourts.ca1.case-17-2114/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca1_DOT_case-17-2114/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca1_DOT_case-17-2114_DOT_2018-07-26_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "gov.uscourts.ca1.case-17-2114/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca1_DOT_case-17-2114/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca1_DOT_case-17-2114_DOT_2018-07-26_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca1.case-19-1382.2020-03-04.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.ca1.case-19-1382", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca1.case-19-1382.2020-03-04.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [5010, 2400, 833, 4297, 6240, 2017, 900, 1691, 2689, 1000, 12933, 13400, 1500, 24100, 3570, 2270, 833, 7547, 1772, 16838, 11940, 8550, 2350, 22570, 4600, 16383, 4373, 11267, 37070, 12190, 16200, 14480, 6393, 8080, 8800, 9510, 17663, 3330, 4930, 16420, 3670, 13230, 4320, 1450, 2616, 5000, 6770, 14760, 12880, 9483, 2900, 13320, 8050, 833, 11253, 2820, 3260, 11270, 8130, 10250, 9953, 4470, 2220, 3390, 4480, 18570, 17000, 2080, 21617, 11583, 4990, 6580, 8703, 24710, 3540, 1000, 1493, 1654, 5750, 4110, 17940, 8418, 9802, 2950, 7230, 15330, 2540, 7310, 2483, 6000, 7173, 11630, 9490, 5990, 7530, 2610, 16000, 12040, 11960, 11220, 10140, 10300, 7770, 13300, 34690, 2880, 16250, 20150, 6170, 3363, 3550, 3640, 18360, 11550, 4710, 1160, 5860, 7800, 5000, 16660, 14653, 11500, 3701, 5000], "label": ["today's cases will be called as previously announced and the times will be as allotted to council", "the first case today is excuse me your honor", "let's try that again", "today's cases will be called as previously announced and the times will be as allotted to council", "the first case today is nineteen dash one three eight two chen versus united states", "the united states sports academy inc", "mr holinski", "yes good morning your honor", "your honor and the samantha lea court", "my name is stanley lenski", "i appear on behalf of mr chen the plaintiff in this action brought initially from the commonwealth of massachusetts superior court transferred here by diversity", "my biggest issue i mean i think the strongest issue here that clearly mr chen asked your honor to reverse the dismissal of this matter of the us district court", "return it to an active docket", "the best argument for that is the nature of the proceeding that we're going to note of here today that that this district court relied on who convert this to a summary judgment record even in the inadequate record that that this is the twelve b6 proceeding we're to rely on the pleadings as we all know very well", "council excuse me it's not a twelve b6 proceeding", "it's twelve b2 motion", "yes", "and in a twelve b2 motion the court is entitled to rely on a properly filed affidavit", "yes i'm also broke i'm sorry", "okay yes i've done enough of these that twelve b6 seems to come out very often but twelve b2 yes on an affidavit but to me that is the most problematic because we have not had a chance to explore the underpinnings of those facts", "but also you did have an opportunity to ask the district court for leave to do jurisdictional discovery before it ruled on the motion to dismiss and there was no such request made", "that's correct your honor that is in my view not a bar to this argument the argument that's before the court", "that being that being said", "well why why isn't it a bar well i don't think take availing yourself avail the party availing itself of of all you know it's not as like a an administrative proceeding of belling oneself of all administrative remedy issues that the", "the cake law is the case law the law is the law that we", "if we are to look at the facts that are before the record that is before this court and it was before the the district court the trial court it does not support the decision to dismiss this matter as it has been done", "why not i'm sorry why not oh", "what what evidence is there in the in the record of the requisite minimum contacts so the evidence i think is overwhelming", "you know we have as i've as i've argued we have you know this is a very poignant point in time because we have so much social media and we have so much you know internet activity for the first time in many many forever so these present very not believable legal arguments but well you know the difference between a passive and an interactive website the numbers of distinctions between those like as i mentioned a restaurant or what website or gym website versus an interactive website", "interactive websites going to touch everything especially where it's where you're talking about a medically licensed individual including the the licensure banks massachusetts banks", "is your argument essentially that the mere existence of an interactive website that is that can be accessed in any of the fifty states is enough to confer jurisdiction in any one of those states no you honor and i", "well what other context do we have here other than the mere fact that there was an interactive website well we we don't we don't have an interactive website such as westlaw", "you know we don't have a dat you know something that's a database where we can go online and just search and that's an interactive website", "we have this party reaching out to massachusetts and the world for that matter", "excuse me what evidence is there of reaching out or targeting other than the existence of the website itself", "well there's an admission in the affidavit that at the time of the pleading there were this this company had active students in massachusetts", "well on your theory then once there is a website which can be as interactive as this one in effect there is personal jurisdiction in every jurisdiction which the website reaches", "yes yes", "particularly in this case because you know you're talking about fees being", "i mean think about the implications of one you know somebody who is medically licensed and offers a medical degree you've got licensing authorities you've got regulatory authorities you've got endusers who are going to go to the website to check out the doctor that they're going to go to", "and to evaluate that doctor use the same website", "you've got retail industry where you have to go and buy a computer and you can't avail yourself with these services unless you buy a computer and buy internet service", "you've got massachusetts you've got servicing in case something goes down", "somebody has to come to your house and fix it", "in order to access this online system", "you've got email servers back and forth you've got", "if you're paying them you've got your bank in massachusetts that's dealing with this out of states enterprise", "now i'm not saying any one of these individual factors is enough to confirm minimum contacts that you would to establish jurisdiction taken together though this is more than westlaw", "what if someone accesses your website from california and you have some as many websites do now some interactive component is their jurisdiction to sue you in california well yeah sure when we look at", "i hate to bring up twitter but twitter or facebook you know these social media platforms that have jurisdiction throughout the fifty states", "how is this different i think this is even on a higher level", "so essentially you're saying if you assume that most companies and most individuals who learn to have a presence on the internet that can be accessed from anywhere in the world", "you seem to be pretty close to saying that any company for any transaction can be sued in any state in the united states", "so no", "then what would be the distinguishing factor once they have an interactive website that is accessed from that state by several people everything you say could be said", "that's the analysis of the sliding scale", "that is i agree with that analysis", "i think that this is so complex that i agree with your honor that you who has jurisdiction and who doesn't who are we going to bring to this state and who aren't we going to bring to the state", "and the sliding scale reaches that the sliding scale you know this is a totality of the circumstances situation", "this is what we need to look in and i argue to you that this is the very kind when a company is reaching out to massachusetts", "i don't understand what the company has gone to reach out what the company has done other than to establish the website", "what the company has done is not so much reach", "so i wouldn't suggest it's the reaching out portion", "well that's the phrase you just used", "so if i misspoke it's not the reaching out portion", "it's the complicity it's the once you reach out and somebody says somebody in korea somebody in you know in massachusetts says hey you know i see a website here i see that you offer degrees that will be recognized in massachusetts", "can i sit in my home in massachusetts and earn my degree from massachusetts the answer being yes is when jurisdiction should attach in this situation it's not the reaching out", "it's the acceptance the complicit", "well are you in effect saying that what is significant here is not so much from the establishment of the website it's not so much what happened before the individual came back and said you know i want to get going again on my degree and i now living in massachusetts", "are you saying that his his attempt in effect to reenroll after he had moved to massachusetts is what gives pers", "is what entails personal jurisdiction not what happened before that", "well you know what to answer your question first there are other students there", "there are other students that are admitted by the defendant in massachusetts and also i don't believe it's the subjective facts that relate simply to my client that matter", "to answer your question it is as soon as a company such as this says i know you're in massachusetts you can complete your degree in massachusetts without coming back to the state you have jurisdiction", "you just entered the state you've entered the commonwealth", "thank you counsel", "yes thank you your honor", "hi good morning you honor this may appease the court", "my name is bethany and minnick i'm here on behalf of the defendant i believe the united states sports academy inc", "touching on some of the issues that your honors have addressed here today", "while technology has certainly altered the landscape in terms of how the courts are required to look at jurisdiction the courts had also made it clear that jurisdiction cannot be obliterated and the states cannot simply come in and grab any after a business that has a website or an internet presence", "the fact that the united states sports academy has a interactive website to some degree does not confer general jurisdiction in this matter", "we've asked counsel on several occasions what is that the united states sports academy specifically did to draw in students or to reach into massachusetts", "and the facts are that they did nothing", "they had a website that is interactive and allows for people in all of the states to access it to gain information", "and while foreseeable that a student or participant might go on there and fill out an application or even enroll in the program is not sufficient to allow for this court to put general jurisdiction over the united states sports academy here in massachusetts", "what's at issue here is a contract claim", "and that contract arose of a relationship that occurred in alabama in two thousand and eight and in two thousand and ten", "we have a breach of contract claim", "the neuro presence of an internet website and massachusetts is not what gives rise to the contract claim", "the contract claim arises out of the enrollment file in alabama pursuant to the terms of the agreement the parties entered into at that time", "with respect to specific jurisdiction the test that my brother's speaks to this sliding scale that was identified in zippo while not specifically adopted by this court it certainly has an examinative length", "and that scale talks about the past events of it and also the more specific ends where there is further interactivity between the parties in different states", "and here we don't have a situation where there is a significant amount of interactivity between the parties", "we have a website that the plaintiff utilized while in alabama for a period of about two years and then he disappeared", "we didn't hear from him for a period of about six years", "at which time he made an isolated unilateral contact with massachusetts and if you look at the complaint there are suggestions of i think three different conversations that this individual had with the united states sports academy from massachusetts", "nowhere in the complaint does he identify that he said he was in massachusetts at the time that he informed them of his move to massachusetts from alabama or from some other state and the court has to look beyond the website", "so taking that passive scale all of the cases say that it is not just the presence of a website that could be accessed in another state but you have to look beyond that and look at purposeful availment", "and i suggest to you that the facts in this case demonstrate that there was no purposeful availment by the united states sports academy relative to mr chen or anyone else for that matter", "my brother has identified that there were two other students which we've put her in our affidavit who at the time of the filing were enrolled in a single course in massachusetts", "there's no evidence of these students were received any advertisements from the united states sports academy that the sports academy solicited their business", "certainly no evidence that the plaintiff's business was solicited or that the united states sports academy came to him and asked him to enroll in their institution", "the evidence is that he went to alabama he enrolled in the school he was in alabama for two years where they're located where they're incorporated where their offices are and then he took the courses all of the forty eight required credit he took in alabama", "and then at some point he left the jurisdiction didn't inform the united states sports academy of it didn't reenroll in some of the other cases talk about for example in the case of having to pronounce this incorrectly with td versus walden university there the individual left the state where they had originally enrolled and they then reenrolled in another state letting the institution know that they had reenrolled in that university the institution maintained contact with them knowing that they were in another state they had other students that were also enrolled in that state they targeted there students they advertise to them", "they had pre enrollment workshops", "there's sufficient evidence in that case not for general jurisdiction but the court found that there was sufficient evidence for specific jurisdiction because beyond having an interactive website there were other purposeful availment that allowed for the invocation of specific jurisdiction", "also in the case of peril versus grand canyon which my brother sites too they are again specific jurisdiction not because of the presence of an interactive website but because they actively recruited over a thousand students they contacted and spoke to a thousand students on a regular basis for the respect to their program studies", "they had had conversations directly with the plaintiff in that case about her course of study", "so again very different facts from the facts we have here today", "in our jurisdiction there was a case of chase versus jest", "and there there was no jurisdiction general or specific", "for very similar facts to what we have here today which is that the while there may have been a website and there was a website there was no advertising no solicitation business no pre enrollment screenings or fairs that they attended same facts here", "the united states sports academy does not come into massachusetts they don't hold school fairs or you know come in and try to post ads in schools to solicit business", "they don't advertise here they have no office here in massachusetts no telephone number", "they don't pay taxes here", "there's no evidence whatsoever that they solicited any business here in massachusetts purposely", "with respect to the email communications again those are general responses to inquiries made by the plaintiff they were unilateral", "the plaintiffs solicited that information from them regarding the course of study and his program", "which again goes back to two thousand and ten when you leave the complaint he says that he entered into this arrangement with them to change his course from a comprehensive examination to a portfolio again activity that took place in two thousand and ten in alabama not in massachusetts", "so for these reasons and the reasons that my brother waved and the underlying case his ability to conduct pre discovery or jurisdictional discovery relative to these facts that we've talked about here today", "there is no evidence of general or specific jurisdiction that would allow for this court to bring the united states sports academy into massachusetts for this litigation", "and for that reason i ask that you affirm the district 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{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca11.19-14227.2020-12-16.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.ca11.19-14227", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca11.19-14227.2020-12-16.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [7024, 5000, 4683, 1120, 5000, 833, 3427, 6216, 924, 1003, 3937, 2890, 1050, 4550, 6141, 2919, 989, 21043, 8777, 11495, 5536, 4500, 4090, 18920, 12360, 12031, 15799, 12016, 24554, 24098, 1292, 3470, 8670, 13354, 1546, 4910, 5820, 8143, 9767, 3750, 16740, 3600, 22153, 17423, 833, 7050, 6547, 24742, 25428, 9970, 1560, 10913, 4861, 6190, 5350, 13900, 21690, 10080, 9300, 7600, 8250, 11860, 14570, 2150, 15026, 10420, 9400, 14840, 17960, 2060, 25660, 8370, 8320, 11102, 5568, 4530, 8320, 6340, 8083, 5255, 3682, 13722, 37168, 12410, 2930, 1234, 4959, 1720, 3804, 4106, 7500, 6360, 13268, 16131, 13381, 6410, 6390, 11655, 13790, 3918, 2650, 4740, 5000, 10250, 4860, 4203, 21196, 833, 5000, 3060, 5450, 8940, 18580, 7098, 17329, 11364, 8626, 9441, 36302, 23724, 4043, 6933, 49520, 4400, 1690, 4400, 12900, 1330, 18470, 9309, 23771, 1803, 35925, 9373, 3337, 12623, 2695, 21568, 3133, 6787, 7530, 4500, 3860, 13568, 7652, 5063, 8093, 5299, 2613, 5395, 10830, 940, 16640, 8940, 11080, 970, 15620, 13390, 25258, 4325, 9914, 1843, 7470, 14312, 3652, 6673, 13050, 7560, 1090, 7430, 3250, 6700, 14750, 5170, 15180, 4600, 970, 25920, 10620, 6160, 5493, 6620, 3700, 4510, 1050, 1515, 2486, 1424, 15510, 13990, 1150, 5620, 10490, 1600, 10119, 19114, 9027, 3410, 3130, 5770, 9200, 3660, 3950, 43733, 15680, 9170, 5110, 10780, 24866, 4804, 5670, 6170, 9240, 2460, 11200, 6870, 4770, 1393, 1113, 2937, 3280, 977, 5506], "label": ["and we have what the next case on our docket this morning georgia advocacy office versus theadore jackson", "and i see ms palmer is here", "ashley jenelle moore palmer is here for jackson", "yes your honor", "and devon orland is here for the attorney general", "thank you your honor", "actually i am no longer with the attorney general's office", "i am with the georgia advocacy office and i'm representing the georgia advocacy office and the name plaintiffs in this action", "alright", "thank you", "and why don't we begin ms palmer you may begin your argument", "thank you your honor and good morning to you all", "may it please the court", "my name is ashley palmer and i represent all of the appellants in this matter", "the supreme court has rejected remedial orders that unnecessarily reach out to improve prison conditions", "other than those that violate the constitution", "and that's brown v platter", "in july two thousand and nineteen a preliminary injunction was entered against the fulton county sheriff and four of his employees as a result of two alleged constitutional violations that the court found after hearing three days of evidence and testimony regarding the treatment of seriously mentally ill female inmates in the sheriff's custody", "although the district court abused its discretion in entering this preliminary injunction appellant's recognize that this is a highly deferential standard", "by contrast there isn't any question that the district court's order fails to satisfy the need narrowness intrusiveness factors found in the prison litigation reform act", "further the court did not make its order final and thus it expired by operation of law", "ninety days after it was entered on july 23rd two thousand and nineteen", "i'll first speak to the issue of the underlying order being expired", "despite the district court's belief this order was not idolized upon the entry of the court's september 23rd two thousand and nineteen to den the mortar of the cases that have sought to define what the plra means by making a preliminary injunction final both the ninth circuit and mayweathers v nulon", "and the third circuit and victory v berks county have interpreted a final preliminary order as being a perspective or permanent order and appellants believe this is the correct reading", "if the district court still anticipate having a trial on whether a permanent injunction is necessary and that's what all the parties are anticipating then the preliminary junction that is in place is by definition not a final order", "we think the record which was recently supplemented is sufficient for this court to determine whether district court judge was correct that the preliminary injunction is a final order for the purpose of avoiding the ninety day restriction because the language of the statute is clear", "appellant asked for a determination by this court that the injunction has expired but we also recognize your honor is that the mootness doctrine and the plot that there's a question about the mootness doctrine is applicability in this case", "we would argue pursuant to mayweathers v nulon which is a night circuit taste at the 11th circuit sites approvingly in usb florida secretary of corrections which states that a district court does not buy a length of terms of the plra by entering a second injunction after the first is expired nothing in the statutes limits how many times the preliminary injunction can be imposed", "thus in this case the court the district court could enter another preliminary injunction one that may very well state whether the court intends to finalize the order but also one with the same level of intrusiveness and overbroad and this that we have here appellant's fear that the district court will be guided by the scope of relief in the order in question here unless this panel issues the appropriate correction", "so this", "let me be clear about the the mootness argument you're making", "if we were to agree with you that the injunction under the statute expired after ninety days because it wasn't made a permanent injunction", "then on remand the district court would have the opportunity to issue a new preliminary injunction or be required to perform the analysis to issue a permanent injunction", "at that point", "well your honor he would be a permitted to enter another preliminary injunction", "and this goes to my second argument to your second question which is the analysis that he would have to go through", "and for both the preliminary injunction and prospective relief he has to go through the need narrowness intrusiveness analysis", "and so we will be the same analysis as laid out in the plra applies both in the preliminary injunction context as well as in the context as perspective relief", "he also judge grant could immediately issue perspective relief", "he could immediately put into place a permanent injunction which pursuant to the plra would be in place for a two year period at a minimum depending upon the apellants coming back and making an argument that they believed at that time it should be extinguished", "and so he could do both your honor to answer your question", "so it looks like from a statute that you may really like some things about three hundred and sixty two thousand six hundred and twelve which is the ninety day limit but you may not like that it looks it's not requiring specific findings of the sort that are required in one", "can you talk to me about if you've noticed any differences it appears that perhaps preliminary injunctive relief the judge certainly must conclude that those factors are met but there's not the same there's not the same requirement for issuing findings there", "thank you judge", "and i understand your question and what i would say to that is in this instance although we don't believe that the preliminary injunction was made", "i know the district court judge in our supplement that we made to the record as your honors have probably seen believes that it was", "and so accordingly based upon that his belief that it was a final order he is required to make those findings that are found in one in order for it to be made final not only does he have to affirmatively make it final he also has to go through that neednarrowness intrusiveness which this court has stated in it's case law requires that they make make those particularized findings and so that's", "does he need to make those findings and then the top of the order says permanent injunction rather than preliminary junction is that in your view what needs to happen to transform the preliminary injunction into a final order i believe your honor that there has to be some language that puts the appellants on notice that this is in fact not just a preliminary injunction but a permanent one", "there's been other case law that says that the case will that the injunction will be in place until a final order on the underlying case is issued", "we have nothing like that here", "there was nothing where the court stated that we had any awareness that our clients at the beyond the ninety day period that they would still be required to comply with the mandates of the preliminary injunction", "as it concerns the preliminary injunction your honors and the plra as your honors are well aware", "congress has placed strict limits on remedial relief that a court may impose on a jail or prison", "it must be as a judge grant and i've been speaking about narrowly drawn and not intrusive", "however here the court went too far in dictating to the sheriff how he should remedy the alleged constitutional violations which he found to be twofold the deliberate indifference which we disagree with obviously and also an ada claim", "this court recently had in huffer v secretary florida department of corrections discussed that blame the deliberate in different standard but even assuming based on the facts that the court had in front of it that it was accurate and it was correct in making those findings the relief that it ordered the remedial relief is the issue with which that we have here", "in lewis v casey the supreme court noted that its opinions have alimented courts becoming immeshed in the minutiae of prison operations in the name of the constitution", "and that's because as this court held in pre prison legal news v sector terri florida department of corrections under turner v safely a supreme court case", "we are wide ranging and substantial deference to the decisions of prison administrators because of the complexity of prison management", "the fact that responsibility therefore is necessarily invested in prison officials and the fact that courts are ill equipped to deal with such problems the problem", "i think these allegations are frankly pretty horrific let's assume for purposes of argument which i know you don't actually agree with but let's assume that it's all true", "and there is a substantive violation how how could the court's order be more narrow yet less intrusive to the specific operations of the prison it seems like those are the jail", "it seems like those are someones intention", "to answer your question judge grant i think lewis v casey speaks to this too and it talks about the deference that should be given to prison officials and our particular case i understand that the facts as they were presented to this court then yes they do come off as being quite horrific", "but the act of the matter is the issue before the court with a staple wound which was is keeping women in a sale for longer than twenty two to twenty three hours deliberate indifference", "and is it exacerbating or is it causing their mental health issues their serious mental health issues that already existed to be further exacerbated that was that was the issue", "the court went in a broad scope to address many other issues that were not before it issues that plaintiffs presented at the lower level in terms of you know their discomfort with the fact that sometimes the toilet's leaked or they're upset in this with the temperature within", "sometimes the toilet leaks seems like a pretty dramatic understatement wouldn't you agree well i would say your honor that there was evidence that was shown that yes the toilets leak because the inmates were putting things down in the toilets and so yes there are there were there were draft things that were happening", "floodings things like that that happened", "i would submit to you honors typically in a jail and a prison setting and the jail was managing it the best that they could in terms of letting people out though which is the essence of the deliberate indifference i think to answer your honor's question in terms of the four hours that the court mandated the court even said itself in its order it wasn't finding that that was a constitutional mandate but what is required per lewis v casey is to give deference to the sheriff", "and so the question should have been asked the sheriff i have found that you are in violative of the constitutional deliberate in different standard", "what i'm saying to you is sherif i need you to go back with your jail officials and bring me a plan to allow us to ameliorate what's happening here", "and it may not have been four hours because the fact is is that especially now as we know in the light of covid there are many difficulties and many issues that the jails deal with on a daily basis and so slowly", "so council what was the the alternative remedy proposed by the sherif", "that sheriff didn't have an opportunity judge wilson to propose an alternative", "what the judge did was accepted a four page order from the plaintiffs that they presented at the conclusion of the hearing that he signed in everyone's presence", "and then he asked and then he indicated that he would make more particularized findings", "the appellants defendants in the underlying case then filed a motion for reconsideration in response to our motion", "the plaintiffs then presented the court with the fifty four page addendum order that your honor is have before them", "and he signed that without any alterations to it", "and so as my understanding correct that the order also does provide a safety valve for the sheriff to ensure deference to jail administrators when it's necessary for a penological purpose", "it is a very limited in scope safety valve judge wilson and i say that because even though the court said that i recognized that there are valid basis by which you may have to keep someone in the cell for longer than twenty four hours you still have to not only document your reasons for doing that but someone at a rank at either lieutenant or captain or higher has to assess why you make that decision and then after that we have to bring in one of your medical professionals to ensure that the decision was rightfully made by your correctional officers and so again that goes to the neednarrownessintrusiveness that i've been speaking about judge wilson", "the fact of the matter is that when the court steps itself so far into stepping into the shoes of the sheriff and the prison officials that is what the plr and congress said cannot stand and so i see that my time is up", "i will come back and reserve some time for rebuttal", "thank you", "right then we'll hear from this ms orland on behalf of the georgia advocacy office", "thank you your honor may i please to the court", "my name is devon orland and i represent the appellate that this action", "after three days of evidence and argument the district court ruled from the bench", "but despite his belief that courts should be cautious about entering an injunction that this was the type of case that required court intervention", "as he found defendants treatment of women with psychiatric disabilities to be both repulsive and shameful", "the district court's decision wills was supported by the undisputed record that women with serious psychiatric disabilities were left in their cells for twenty two to twenty four hours a day for days weeks and months on end", "the cells were covered in bodily fluids rust and mold in these conditions they deteriorated leaving them incoherent screaming unintelligibly laying catatonic banging their heads against walls and repeatedly attempting suicide", "dr jeffrey mets one of the foremost experts in the field of forensics put forth undisputed testimony that the bare minimum was to provide the class with four hours of adaceae time five days a week", "this still leads to the class plaintiffs in lockdown for one hundred and forty eight of the one hundred and sixty eight hours in each week", "the court provided appellants with the opportunity to devise their own plan with how to implement this court order", "the court entered up brief written order on that same day in that order the court stated it would enter into a more detailed order to meet the requirements for eighteen usc three thousand six hundred and twenty six two", "the court did just that and entered into a fifty four page order detailing its legal and factual findings and specifically making the neednarrow least intrusive determinations as defined by the statute", "and it did so within the ninety days specified by law", "the district court's decision should be affirmed", "i'll first address the validity as to the district courts grants of the preliminary injunction", "and then we'll address the impact of eighteen usc three thousand six hundred and twenty six two", "i further note that while appellants inaccurately assert that the addenda mortar expired by operation of law they also acknowledged the likelihood that the district court would enter a new operative order", "the district court did in fact do so and appellants chose not to appeal this order", "and as a result the operative injunction orders is not really before this court", "as to the validity of the order as the court has already noted the conditions were widely described by the plaintiffs in this case through affidavits expert testimony standards of harm scientific journals the negative impact to security as a result of the sheriff's conducts photographs and log books", "all of this evidence was undisputed", "the county offered two theories", "the first being what they were doing was fine", "and second that they were working on a plan to remedy things", "there was no disputing any of the expert testimony that locking these women up in these conditions in fact impaired their psychiatric condition and made it worse", "there was no contesting testimony that very little psychiatric therapeutic interventions occurred and there was further no testimony that the conditions that were displayed were anything other than what they were depicted to be by the plaintiff's complaint in that testimony proper by the plaintiffs in the case", "the initial grant of the plaintiff's motion for preliminary injunction was entered on july 23rd after the threeday evidence described", "and then the court entered into that detailed order on september 23rd two thousand and nineteen the order itself detailed evidence which produced the eyewitness accounts of the conditions of the facility and failure to treat persons experiencing with psychiatric disabilities", "it further outlined that people who didn't experience psychiatric disabilities were allowed out of their cells and given programmatic opportunities that people with psychiatric disabilities were not", "it outlined further the impact of the conditions especially since the women were locked in their cells for such a long period of time", "and the core analyzed each prong of the preliminary injunction standard outlined the facts that supported the ruling and found in favor of the injunction at every term", "the court specifically outlined its compliance with three million six hundred and twenty six thousand eight hundred and eighty two and it's need narrowness intrusive requirements to adopt the appellant's view of three thousand six hundred and twenty six in this case would if in effect cause district courts and plaintiffs to have to file a new preliminary injunction every ninety days the purpose of the preliminary the prose and litigation reform act was to alleviate the burdens on courts and to bring meritorious claims to the to the tribunal", "further to the provisions requiring the need narrowness least intrusive findings were to avoid courts from having injunctions in place for years on end without specific findings of the court the district court in this case complied specifically with the requirements and said it did so and highlighted it did so in its order", "and as a result entered into a compliant order", "do you think that the court's action effectively converted the preliminary injunction into a permanent", "i do not buy judge grant and the reason i don't is one the court didn't say it was entering a permanent injunction and i don't believe it's required to do so specifically it's required to make the preliminary injunction order final as the court highlighted in united states vs secretary florida department of corrections where the court in that case did vacate the district court's order specifically saying that it didn't finalize the preliminary injunction the term finalizing an order making findings allows for a court to enter an initial order to alleviate what in this case certainly were dire situations quickly while also allowing the court to craft a remedy that is in fact need narrow least intrusive in compliance with the prison litigation reform act through a thoughtful review of the record presented", "the defendants in this case will still have an opportunity to try the case", "this was a preliminary order", "no discovery had occurred and discovery is ongoing", "they will have an opportunity to file for summary judgment to disprove the facts that occurred were presented at the preliminary injunction hearing and further to dispute any facts that were presented through apian as opposed to cross examination and direct testimony", "this was not a final order", "this was a preliminary injunction and this was a finalization of the judge's preliminary injunction order moreover if you look to the canons of statutory construction to determine that the the addendum order was anything other than a preliminary injunction order it flies in the face of how a statute should be interpreted", "so the court says unless the court makes the order meaning the preliminary injunction order comply with the provisions of awan it expires within ninety days", "that statute that reference refers to the preliminary injunction initial order that as often issued in these types of cases i further note that appellants claim that they had didn't have notice that this order would be in effect in greater than ninety days is belied by the fact that the district court reference three hundred and sixty two thousand six hundred and eighty two twice first in its initial order", "and then it addendum order", "don't we need to though because i think everyone agrees that the pra is not the most artfully drafted statute around but don't we have to look at three thousand six hundred and twenty six i think to give us some context for what congress may have been trying to accomplish with the section that we're mostly focused on and would looking at taking that into account give some evidence that perhaps keeping the injunction as a preliminary injunction wouldn't allow the provisions under beads to come into effect the two year termination and so forth", "i didn't really understand the court's point but i think that if you look to be it defines the terms for which a tr a permanent injunction is terminated", "the whole provision deals with permanent injunctions", "if in fact that the intent was to eliminate a preliminary injunction within ninety days then the court then the congress would have said after ninety days the court must enter a permanent injunction", "there's no reasons for it to say to make the order final", "instead it would say it expires after ninety days unless the injunction becomes permanent that's not what the court did what the legislature did instead it's supported a provision to terminate longstanding consent decrees which as the court knows were rampant at the time the plra came into being but also to to tell courts look you've got to look at this every two years", "you can't just keep on going so there are two provisions", "one is the ninety day you've got to make this injunction for ninety days unless you make these findings", "then there are the federal rules of civil procedure which require discovery to actually take place over a period of time then you tried the case", "and if you're going to enter a permanent injunction you have to comply with these other things", "a preliminary injunction has never intended to last for years and years on end", "and that's some of the reason that the court issue is or the legislature passed this rule but they can't possibly expect discovery which even in a truncated discovery schedule is going to happen in one hundred and twenty days", "so you have to take it in the context of how the litigation process occurs and in this case the litigation process is ongoing", "we would have already tried the case by now had we not all been stalled a bit by the pandemic", "so i think the statute in the context of the greater judicial system makes perfect sense which is you have a preliminary injunction", "you need to make me nearness least intrusive findings in order for that injunction to stay in effect", "beyond that ninety days court you need to do your job", "you need to actually make these findings and do the work to keep something preliminarily from creating more harm", "and then once you try the case you don't get to keep an injunction and stay in a jail or prison forever and ever amen without similarly continuing to rereview", "so you had seen", "the court that under under b under one c the court can issue a preliminary injunction almost immediately with i'm not saying that we would suggest this but essentially with no findings they can just say this is horrible it's got to stop now", "and unless they unless they go through the steps required under one then that initial initial preliminary junction expires", "but if they go through the steps required on one then that becomes a final preliminary injunction that can remain in place as the permanent injunction litigation proceeds", "that's right your honor", "and in fact if you look at every single case relied on by the appellants in this action it refers to the court not making the need narrowness least intrusive analysis including this court v the united states versus secretary department of florida department of corrections", "every case where order has been vacated as determined to be not expiring in that ninety days the court specifies that the district court did not make those findings and therefore not finalizing the preliminary injunction order", "and if discovery kind of drags out let's set aside the pandemic which i think is a pretty unusual situation but what under ordinary circumstances what remedy under your reading of the statute do prison officials have if if your preliminary injunction just stretches for years which seems to be contrary to what the pra is trying to make happen", "i think they can always go back to the district court and say we've we've moved the client", "they can say we've made the claim or this injunction is no longer meritorious because i mean there's no reason that they can't go and move or vacate the preliminary injunction", "it just doesn't automatically happen", "so i think if you look at the if you look at the role that statutory construction issues in this case you have to take a look at the wording of the statute", "and the statute it says itself says unless the preliminary injunction unless the order meaning the initial order and preliminary injunction is goes through the three thousand six hundred and twenty six two language that it vacates", "and that unless only can refer to that last piece", "in conclusion i would just point to the court that the evidence and testimony in this case was largely undisputed", "the only all the experts all the all the practitioners that testified at this hearing said the minimum you can get out is twenty hours a week which still leaves an awful lot of time in lockdown", "and there wasn't a single solitary person who said it it was healthy it was safe", "it was treatment", "it was appropriate or it wasn't deliberate indifference for these women to be locked down in the manner that they were locked down", "and there were a lot of factors in that including the cell conditions", "and if you look at the district courts addendum order on pages fifty and fifty one he outlines those conditions and the why", "it was further undisputed but and documented by hundreds of photographs the conditions that these women were asked to live in all of the testifying experts agree that women with psychiatric disabilities are harmed by the segregation that this and this was exacerbated by the physical conditions", "and the only remedy offered by any expert was that the minimum was twenty hours out itself", "the district court rightly weighed these undisputed facts and the testimony that there was no security benefit to the segregation and make concrete and need narrow least intrusive findings within the ninety days required by statute asset the district court's order be affirmed with the question", "i'm going to drag you back into set short into rotation with one more question before you sit down", "absolutely thank you", "so the the preliminary injunction section says that it expires ninety days after its entry unless the court makes the findings required and makes the order final before the expiration what do you think that what do you think is required to make the order final besides those findings what are we to make of that and i think the court needs to actually issue the order", "so it goes through the factual analysis not just said need narrow least intrusive but do what the court did in this case and say i'm compliant with three thousand six hundred and twenty six two", "and and therefore the order i mean i don't think the court needs to make a magic word say the word final", "this court has never found that magic words were required but again it's referring to they order", "so it doesn't just say it needs to make at least least intrusive need narrows findings", "it says an issue in order you can't just stay at it from the bench", "you need to actually do the detailed analysis and put it in on order", "thank you your honor", "thank you miss orlin", "ms palmer you've reserved some time for rebuttle", "i did thank you judge wilson", "i wanted to follow up on the last question that judge grant was asked which has to do with the and to answer that question to the and is there for a reason and it's not just the superbowl it's not just does the court have to make the particular line it also has to make it finer", "and the reason for that is so that all parties specifically the upon whom the the injuction apply are aware of the fact that this is not pursuant to the plra just the ninety eight order but it's one that has been finalized", "that is not what occurred here", "i think it was around the struggle and answering that question because the fact is is that the judge did not stay here", "and he acknowledged in the transcript that is now before your honors in supplement that he did not state affirmatively or put anyone on notice that this order was going to be in place post the ninety days", "that may have been his intent", "that may have been what he was thinking in his head but unfortunately appellants can not operate pursuant to what the judge may have been thinking without actually being articulated in the order in some form", "what's your response to the suggestion that it's unrealistic to think that a permit that the litigation required and the discovery required for a permanent injunction could realistically happen in ninety days or less i actually don't think that that's an unreasonable thought at all your honor", "there are many district courts and outdoor appellate courts that have found that that was the very purpose behind why the plra was put into place", "and that was to take a very long drawn out process", "then y'all know how civil litigation and track ratings are", "the very reason that jails and prisons can not continue to be in limbo as we have been for almost two years", "and when july of two thousand and twenty one rolls around next year that would have been exactly two years from the time when the george when the judge put the original order in place", "and the fact is that would be the same amount of time for a permanent injunction", "and so it flattened the face of the purpose behind the lra", "there are district court that have said that in fact that is the very essence of life puts it at night and day that mayweather says that yes you may have to come back every ninety days to prove up your case again and though that may seem counterintuitive to the way that litigation is brought it does go to the fact that that's the supreme court has filed their prison and jail officials have to be able to properly oversee and provide the necessary operations that they need for the jails and prisons and when monies are being reallocated when you're having to go before the board of commissioner which we had nine to finding its staff and being upheaved to facilitate all that the judges asked the sheriff and his personnel to do that presents a problem for jails and prison", "what about the facts what do you say about the fact that the injunction that we have before us has apparently been updated or there's a new injunction what are we doing i understand well what i'm saying is first of all that it still relates back to the original order", "there have been instances in other courts specifically i think of a court at a district court in alabama that had the berries in case that came before it", "and even though it came back and it made a modification the question was whether it related back", "and i believe that did furthermore what i would say your honor is that updated is absolutely flagging the base of the intrusiveness the least intrusive that one is supposed to do", "when you're telling a share how long you have to bring a person out for and when that person without doing that four hour time what they are obligated to do which is it's been three hours giving them therapeutic activities and one hour ensuring that they get outdoor recreation that we're supposed to go through the process things of ensuring that they understand what it means to clean their state and educating them about how to keep themselves going and going through all of the law books", "apparently the judge because the plaintiffs didn't like the way the sheriff was maintaining his loft", "so we had to put in another process to maintain the law groups to document how people about for free time", "that is absolutely not what lewis v casey speaks to which is the deference that is supposed to be given to prison and jail officials", "a court is not in the position to be able to say what happens on a daytoday basis especially in such a fluid environment as a jail which is not a prison", "things are happening every day in that environment", "and for the judge to put this very onerous order on us which i know it was oral and wasn't able to contest there is no contestants from the other side this is not the least intrusive it would not", "if it had been the sheriff would have been consulted there have been his and would have been taken into consideration", "if it had been the motion for reconsideration that we brought back before the court would've been", "if your time has expired", "thank you your honor", "we could just add you restaurant out briefs and vet", "you would find the distractions not only in that", "thank you", "all right thank you ms palmer and ms orland the court is in recess until nine o'clock tomorrow morning"], "name": 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{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca5.19-11259.2020-06-03.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.ca5.19-11259", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca5.19-11259.2020-06-03.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [5130, 15283, 833, 5768, 2570, 5410, 2633, 2626, 2754, 1631, 2479, 2080, 4080, 8490, 3050, 11000, 1150, 11813, 7803, 16270, 9010, 15350, 6850, 4840, 7173, 18793, 17680, 9666, 8234, 2210, 7430, 13890, 4230, 2690, 8800, 5110, 10060, 13393, 833, 13717, 1347, 2853, 910, 7250, 9043, 7990, 7940, 4000, 1343, 3398, 6022, 12030, 3683, 13274, 8360, 6140, 13830, 12610, 833, 4520, 15413, 6853, 7983, 1712, 18383, 833, 1467, 4523, 9583, 3907, 2227, 5000, 18270, 13110, 28750, 13930, 2307, 2016, 1778, 2173, 9160, 6930, 8650, 2780, 18900, 12120, 2360, 8440, 2590, 16040, 6523, 13560, 6420, 6230, 7190, 5820, 23333, 2978, 11070, 1520, 6190, 7870, 21700, 5860, 8470, 8710, 6373, 6160, 7323, 4490, 2270, 3780, 1880, 900, 9480, 7320, 4720, 833, 7577, 1300, 833, 10431, 7490, 5200, 1230, 3210, 1637, 5293, 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5950, 2323, 12557, 8923, 19810, 2444, 5716, 2070, 32410, 5803, 4103, 3793], "label": ["argument in north presidio versus lowe's home centers llc", "and we should have mr ernest leonard and for lowe's mr mark gladwell and anthony j", "luciano", "so i only see two lawyers do we have three yes your honor", "lowe's is actually splitting the argument", "i'll be taking the first part and then my colleague mr luciano would take in the second part", "okay we'll hear first from mr leonard", "mr leonard you may proceed", "i don't hear anything coming from you yet", "thank you your honor", "can you hear me now yes", "may it please the court this is ernest leonard", "on behalf the appellant for presidio llc", "as described in their brief this case involves a real estate project for texas that was being developed by north presidio", "lowe's was intended to be an anchor tenant", "as described in the brief there was a signed contract which was the agreement to enter into ground lease which contemplated that three contracts would then be signed at closing", "and then it was around me", "the most important issue is how did judge mcbryde certainly tried to put you in a box and nail it tight", "so where did he commit an error the primary one has to do with that we do have an enforceable contract", "under the facts plan we have a situation and i fully recognize and appreciate the limitation of liability provisions that judge mcbryde pointed out to section 13b which was damages would be limited to the earnest money", "and section thirty five was that closed until closing site development work would be performed at north presidio's expense", "however under the facts he pled here we have a situation where the site development agreement with its forty three million damage cap while it was never executed is enforceable under texas law", "now i would agree it certainly would have been better had north presidio did no site development work before closing", "however that was not practical and even the contract contemplated there'd be some", "basically i would rely upon two principles of texas law that i believe that judge mcbryde missed", "first of them is that an agreement to make a future agreement which this was can be enforceable if it is specific as to all essential terms and the essential terms of the site development agreement were set forth in the agreement to enter into ground lease itself", "as authority we cited the texas appellate court case of apmd holdings which lowe's also cited which basically enunciated this rule that agreement to make a future contract could be enforceable under those conditions", "that court said that essential terms are those that the parties would reasonably regard as being vitally important elements of their bargain", "and very importantly that court said that material terms of a contract are determined on a case by case basis", "that is it's a fact issue", "the court also said that texas courts favor validating contracts rather than avoiding them", "so in our pleading your honor we note that section 7b of the contract almost all but writes out the site development agreement it lists six detailed express requirements of the site development agreement", "the section 7b of agreement also contemplated that we'd be doing work", "some site development work before closing", "we pled that they had weekly telephone conferences at which time they will confirm that we were doing the work", "my client was doing the work under their own criteria and the lowe's development criteria", "and that during these calls lowe's affirmed that the terms of the site development agreement when the drafts were being exchanged were acceptable to them", "but let me ask what do you do with section thirty five it seems to clearly say until the closing your client's at risk if things don't consummate", "yes your honor", "i believe that goes towards the timing of the payment but in this case we have some additional facts which is the conduct of the parties themselves and going forward under promises that they would execute that", "and i believe it's", "that goes to your noncontractual claims right i mean", "your honor it does", "that would but it also goes under this principle of law your honor that an agreement to agree could be enforceable", "and i understand judge mcbryde's reliance on section thirty five but i would contend that in a timing of payment issue", "in this case we have the conduct of the parties where they were going forward with lowe's encouragement to do significant site development work", "and therefore i believe these allegations support the conclusion that the essential terms of the site development agreement had been agreed upon", "even though lowe's thereafter refused to execute the document", "also significant", "can you help can you help us yes ma'am", "it seems that okay judge costa asked you about section thirty five", "so what about 13b it doesn't replace 13b it's not in disharmony with it", "it's not at all clear what term of the sda", "you want it to be enforceable but what term of it would change our analysis i agree with the general principle that an agreement to agree can be enforced in texas law", "that's just a general proposition but where does it get you well under the pleadings they had everything worked out", "in fact the only reason that lowe's gave not to execute the agreement was a change of leadership", "so construing those pleadings we had everything worked out in the sda which is described in section 7b describes essentially obligation to pay per site development costs that were specific to lowe's", "okay what part of the sda would make it the preclosing site development compensable that's not clear to me at least", "yes", "it's section 7b", "it describes in subsection four tenant shall pay periodically within thirty days and reimburse landlord for tenant share of the project costs including without limitation the cost of site work", "so the agreement was that the site work that was specific in and attributable to lowe's would be reimbursed", "and so that's essentially something we'll take to the jury on that is ask that that amount be determined", "but you don't just take the sda", "you have to take the contract too even assuming you take the sda and the contract will say that presda site development is only compensable after closing pursuant to section thirty five", "i understand", "you need to take them both", "i don't see how you get around thirty five even if you're allowed to take the sda", "i understand i believe that's a timing issue but what we would have here is it talks about the payments will be due after the closing", "and what we have here is an essential under texas law", "they had an agreement to agree that's enforceable", "and we would be entitled to our reimbursements for that", "so you're saying presda site development is compensable as long as the money is gotten for it after closing even if it's incurred prior to closing and that that's your interpretation of construing both those provisions in harmony", "i think i understood the question your honor but what i'm saying is if the parties have agreed it should be found to have agreed to the sda it would be required to be paid", "and i understand there is that problematic issue with section thirty five which says that no payment will be due until closing i fully understand that but i believe what we do have is based upon the conduct of lowe's based upon the conduct of the parties we have all the facts that supported show that they agreed to this and they should reimburse us for the significant cost that we incurred developing this to be essentially a lowe's track", "the other point of contract law is if a draft of an agreement is prepared submitted to the parties each them expresses their consent there's a written contract", "and we cited a supreme court case for that", "and that's really just black letter law", "and the pleading allegation supported that", "the fact that they communicated regularly", "they said we affirmed we agreed to this and that when it was at the end of the day the only reason why they wouldn't sign it was because of a change of leadership", "now lowe's argues that the fact that drafts were being exchanged meant the assent was not unconditional", "however the fact that will be pled was the only reason they didn't sign it was because of a change of leadership", "and i think this is also a fact issue", "now as far we did also plead some alternative claims because in the event that the sda cannot be found unenforceable under texas law we believe we would be able to recover under the promissory estoppel and quantum meruit", "and promissory estoppel of course recited the elements promise reliant foreseeable reliance and substantial reliance by us on there for the detriment", "lowe's has two primary arguments", "first of all they say there can't be promissory estoppel because there's an express contract which was the agreement which covers the claim", "well not really", "what that does is cover issues for example 13b covers limitation of liability saying that the only thing you get is that the agreement to enter into ground lease is breached is return of the earnest money contract", "but we have other damages besides site development the section thirty five as i mentioned is timing", "the agreement the executed agreement to enter into ground lease does not give rights itself to reimburse that site development which is what lowe's argued to judge mcbryde", "if that's the case that agreement did not cover reimbursement to our right to reimburse it", "without the agreement to enter into the ground lease only we would not be entitled to do anything", "that's why this is not a matter of an express contract covering the same subject matter", "the other argument they made was that they did not plead it as a promise", "well we pled in paragraph fifteen of the complaint that based upon their frequently stated intent to consummate the agreement and enter into the ground lease and other contracts that we north presidio spent substantial funds and resources to develop the property in a manner that would accommodate them according to the lowe's criteria", "now lowe's argues several cases", "they cite a case from this court in two thousand and ten atkins which the court found that promises to resolve claims for extra work at a later date were too vague", "well that's not what we have here", "we have here something very specific do the work and we'll enter into the sda", "they also cited wiseman case which says an agreement to agree cannot support a claim for promissory estoppel", "well that case is a bit different because that really involved promissory estoppel as an affirmative defense and the court views the example of an oral agreement to sell real estate that would be otherwise barred by the statute of frauds and said you can't backdoor an unenforceable agreement in by using a promissory estoppel argument", "and they also cited a case from the court of appeals city of beaumont and texas court of appeals", "it said a commitment to complete performance under a contract does not give rise to a promissory estoppel claim", "well that's very different because here the parties this is alternatively pled so it's assuming there is no contract", "we agreed to complete a contract because here since it pled alternatively that means there is no contract", "quantum meruit we had the same issue as express contract that i have addressed", "and the district court what benefit did you receive for that claim you have to have received the benefit is my understanding", "i believe that lowe's had to receive the benefit that was the intangible benefit", "i'm sorry right that's right", "what benefit did lowe's receive and i want to be very frank", "the law is not real clear out there", "there's not a lot", "what my argument is they received an intangible benefit because they had the benefit as part of their development plan of a site that was being developed", "i've looked quite extensively for cases that address use of enjoy in terms of intangible benefit", "and your honor i was not able to find a case that correctly fit on point", "they cited", "not any case whatsoever that might even possibly say that you could have such a claim i do not your honor i'll be very frank", "i did not they say cited", "they cited a couple", "you want to know how i feel about your fraud claim yes ma'am what claim yes i don't understand how the new ceo changing direction is fraud", "and i don't understand really what every once in a while you pepper into all the various arguments that the new ceo changed direction", "i don't understand how that's relevant to any of the clients so you need to help me with that", "yes ma'am", "at some point in time they realized they weren't going forward", "we don't know what that point in time is", "that's why we're relying upon the relaxed standard where they have the information from them", "if they knew they were not going to", "mr leonard your time has expired", "you have some time in a moment", "we'll hear next from mr liddell", "yes your honor mr liddell", "mr liddell okay you are allotted thirteen minutes", "thank you your honor", "may i please the court i plan to focus in my part of the argument on why the contract limitation of liability provision takes care of all of the claims north presidio pleaded here", "then my colleague plans to talk about some additional independent defects in the noncontractual claims", "so before diving into the language of this contract i think it's helpful to just take a quick step back and look at what kind of contract this is what it's trying to do", "this is a real estate contract and it shares the same structure as virtually all contracts of its type in that there's a first contract to then close at some later date", "some things will happen leading up to the closing but when the buyer the purchaser enters that first contract it puts up earnest money and then it can walk away before closing and just be out that earnest money", "this is a very common structure", "this is how real estate contracts work", "and that's exactly what happened here", "lowe's entered into that first contract put up its earnest money decided to walk away and then forfeited its earnest money", "now when you look at the specific language of the contract all this is confirmed in effect amplified", "your honors have talked some about section 13b", "that section starts out with a real kind of classic statement of the earnest money framework", "if the lease is not consummated on account of lowe's defaults hereunder forfeiture shall be an entitled as its sole and exclusive remedy here under to receipt of the earnest money deposit", "but then section 13b actually goes beyond that", "and it makes clear that the earnest money isn't just the exclusive remedy for a breach of contract claim but for any claim with really any connection to the agreement", "and its language is clear and unequivocal on this point north presidio hereby waives and releases any right to sue lowe's as to any claims injury or loss arising from or in connection with this agreement to recover damages over the earnest money deposit and texas courts have made clear that that arising from or in connection with language is indeed as broad as it sounds it encompasses any dispute connected to the agreement even claims that merely relate to it", "so the parties later kind of amplified this or confirmed section 13b's limitation of liability provision in section thirty five which what your honors have also brought up this morning and that's a provision that's in bold all caps", "the parties knew what they were doing and it says let's just read it until the closing any site work grading other work north presidio undertakes in any other action lifespan or activity north presidio undertakes in anticipation of lowe's leasing the surmised premises is strictly at north presidio's sole risk and expense now my friend on the other side has said that's a timing provision", "i'm not exactly sure what he means but just reading it it says until the closing as in unless and until the transaction closes all of this is at north presidio's risk and expense", "of course there was no closing here", "so that until the closing term wasn't satisfied", "so the section 13b section thirty five reading them together really just leave the clear impression that unless and until the transaction closes that lowe's can not be liable for more than fifty thousand", "so let's apply those provisions here", "and i think it's helpful that i don't think the parties actually disagree on limited key points", "for example north presidio hasn't challenged whether these provisions are enforceable either as a whole or as any of their claims", "no do they challenge that their contractual and noncontractual claims come within the scope of them", "that is for section 13b that they arrived from or in connection with the contract or per section thirty five that they seek damages for action money spent or activity undertaken in anticipation of lowe's closing the lease which again section thirty five says it's all at north presidio's sole risk and expense", "so putting that all together at least for purposes of section 13b and for section thirty five there's no real dispute", "apart from that slight dispute on section thirty five that north presidio's claims come within the scope of these and that they apply at least on their face for these two claims to bar all the contractual and noncontractual claims because north presidio has now received its earnest money", "again all it's entitled to", "so north presidio instead of engaging on these key terms it turns instead to the spirit of section 7b", "so let's look at section 7b", "7b doesn't purport to change anything regarding section 13b or section thirty five", "what 7b does is it talks about one of the contracts that the parties are supposed to negotiate leading up to the closing", "the closing once involved the ground lease the contract called the epcr and a contract called the sda and then the agreement to enter ground lease this initial contract that's before the court that talks about all of them and gives very broad outlines what kinds of terms there to include what kinds of areas they were to address", "and the contract contemplates that the closing is when the parties execute those contracts and exchange them", "and then those three contracts will govern the parties conduct going forward", "but of course there was no closing or execution here", "and so the sda whatever terms that the parties might have eventually negotiated regarding it that never came into effect", "so not only as your honors have recognized do the general outlines of the sda reflected in the agreement not purport to alter section 13b or section thirty five but even if that were at work or otherwise it simply wouldn't work here because the sda never became an enforceable contract", "and i just want to be clear on this point this execution was required", "it was a part of the sda to be binding", "and there were a couple of reasons for that", "one if you just read the agreement as a whole it first differentiates between the agreement to the sda and the execution of the sda", "and the execution part was supposed to happen at closing", "and that makes sense in light of the broader framework of the contract", "in section 13b section thirty five they make very clear that up until closing lowe's is at most responsible for fifty thousand in damages", "and then after closing the ground lease the epcr and the fca they might provide for additional liability", "but again there wasn't execution", "there wasn't a closing", "the fca never came into effect", "mr liddell what do we do with opposing counsel mr leonard's argument that while they couldn't collect the money ahead of time before closing that the predone work could be compensated after closing under the you know", "yes your honor", "the first agreement", "yes i understand your honor", "i guess a few points here first of all in section 7b when the contract lays out the six or so terms calling them terms is kind of generous the six or so provisions and very general language of yesterday was to include none of those", "none of those say and i don't think that my friend on the other has contested this that they mean to apply to work done preclosing", "and if you pair that with both section 13b and section thirty five which says i think very clearly until the closing that yields the only possible interpretation being that until the closing the section 13b section thirty five govern", "after the closing if the parties reached agreement on the sda executer debt then it would go through", "i guess part of my opposing counsel's argument here is this notion that the sda contained all the essential terms", "and i just want to be clear on a few points", "i mean one north presidio never pleads breach of the sda", "i want to make that clear i think it's important to see how all this operates", "they plead that we breached the agreement to enter ground lease that first initial contract by failing to enter into the sda", "they say this time and again in their pleadings", "there is no breach of the sda claim", "it's all about the agreement", "so if you look at breach of the agreement then the limitation of liability provisions and again 13b and thirty five obviously apply", "and there's no indication that the stated terms of the sda alter them and more important even beyond all of that this notion that the sda contained all the essential terms just to match up to what north presidio has pleaded", "if you look at the terms that north presidio pleaded there's a conclusory pleading that lowe's quote assented to the terms of the sda and then the only term that actually talks about is this reimbursement for site work provision", "but even that term's incomplete because if you look at what they actually plead it says and frankly what the agreement indicates it says that lowe's will reimburse north presidio for quote its share of the project costs but nowhere either in the pleadings or in the agreement does north presidio ever even say what lowe's share is which again just goes to the broader point that section 7b we're just laying out a very general framework for some contracts that that was essentially to come into effect if the parties reached an agreement and decided to proceed with closing but that never happened here", "we don't have any terms of the sda that are either in the agreement or even pleaded that would possibly override the very strong provisions in section 13b and in section thirty five", "also on this point i don't think that my opposing counsel is arguing this but i just want to dot all my i's and cross all my t's to the extent there's any argument that these later oral discussions about the site work and that we assent to the sda to the extent he's arguing that that some somehow does change section 13b and section thirty five which again i don't think he is but just to be clear section twenty four of the agreement which is on page three hundred and thirty of the record it makes it very clear that you can't amend this without a signed writing", "no amendment to this agreement express or implied shall be binding upon the parties unless such amendment shall be in writing and signed again it's undisputed", "there's no signed writing they hadn't pleaded one", "so the sda couldn't if it contained some terms that somehow aren't pleaded but the court would still consider them again just couldn't override the clear terms with 13b and thirty five", "and my last point briefly your honor even if north presidio had pleaded a breach of the sda and even if they had pleaded full terms all the essential terms which we don't know what they are but even if they had it still wouldn't change anything", "because even if these were two separate contracts you would still read the sda along with the agreement", "and the only way to read those two contracts in harmony would be to do as i said a few times now is that the sda takes over postclosing and that the agreements limitation of liability provisions govern preclosing", "also your honor that's why we think that the court doesn't have to go beyond the terms of the limitation of liability provision to resolve all of north presidio's claims", "unless the court has further questions i'll yield the remainder of my time", "thank you sir", "next here coming up mr luciano who has seven minutes if he needs it", "good afternoon your honors as my colleague explained that i'm going to be discussing a few additional reasons why the noncontractual claims were properly dismissed", "two in particular the first of which applies to all three of those claims and it's that because those claims are functionally duplicative of the breach of contract claim they're subsumed within it and can't exist apart from it", "and then the second specifically with respect to fraud is i'll discuss a few of the pleading defects and failure to comply with the particularity requirements under rule 9b", "turning first to the express contract texas courts have been careful to police against parties taking what is in substance a breach of contract claim and rephrasing it in equitable or tort terms", "applying that to the quasicontract first the whole point of quasicontract is that when parties find themselves governed by no agreement sometimes equity will step in and fill in the gaps", "but of course that doesn't apply when an express agreement covers the promises in the case of promissory estoppel or the services in the case of quantum meruit", "and that's precisely the case here", "turning first to the promises this is from paragraph twelve of the amended complaint they plead that the frequently stated intention of lowe's to consummate the agreement and enter into the ground lease the eccr and the sda", "that promise is an agreement to perform under the agreement or that promise is a promise to perform under the agreement to consummate the sba to close on the ground lease", "and so by failing to perform that promise lowe's bore breach of contract liability", "there's no reason to resort to equity to effectively sidestep the contractual provisions", "it's the same story with respect to quantum meruit", "the services at issue here are site work performed in anticipation of closing", "and i think as should be painfully clear by now section thirty five of the agreement covers that with about as much particularity as you can imagine", "it specifically puts that those services at north presidio's sole risk until closing", "so north presidio cannot take what amounts to a breach of contract claim services and promises covered by an agreement and then resort to equity", "north presidio's counsel's argument against that is that no contract covers the services at issue because the agreement doesn't provide for compensation of them", "but i think that gets it backwards because the express contract law applies even when a contract forecloses liability it covers the services all the same", "it just doesn't provide for compensation of them", "and that's what makes it all the more important to hold the parties to the terms of their bargain and not allow them to resort to equity", "the existence of two potential contracts doesn't alter the calculus either", "i'll point the court to this court's opinion in williams v colonial bank there plaintiff's employee wanted to enforce one contract", "this court agreed with the employer that another contract controlled", "and because that second contract controlled it foreclosed the ability of plaintiff to resort to equity to enforce the terms of what was an unenforceable agreement", "now taking these same principles and applying them to the fraud claim results in what texas courts referred to as the economic loss rule", "and that rule the gist of it is that if duties and damages sound in contract then what you've pled is substantively a breach of contract claim", "even if you call it something else", "here both of those defining characteristics align decisively on the favor on the side of contract", "again the promises that issue or the alleged omissions are a failure to perform under the agreement", "in other words that lowe's failed to disclose that it didn't intend to follow through on the ground lease", "that's functionally duplicative of the contractual obligations that they already bore", "and so in that sense there's no room between that and the breach of contract case", "another way to think about it", "i think this is a helpful phrasing is from the lincoln general insurance case", "judge costa your opinion from two thousand and fifteen where you explained the economic loss rule bars a tort claim when no factual basis for the tort claim would exist had the defendant complied with the contract", "here applying that principle if lowe's had followed through and abided by these promises that north presidio rephrases in fraud terms of course there would be no fraud by nondisclosure claim", "turning to the second defining characteristic which is the damages here we have the classic case of purely economic loss to the subject matter of the contract", "in other words reliance damages anticipation of closing", "north presidio i think candidly conceived this much on page twenty six of its opening brief where it explains that it sought contractual expectancy damages and the economic loss rule would bar its claim so long as a contractual obligation exists", "we would submit that a contractual obligation undoubtedly exists", "they sued for it and recovered under it", "and so the fact that they cannot recover their full measure of damages is all the more reason to apply the economic loss rule", "the very purpose of which is to avoid parties disregarding unfavorable provisions by recasting breach of contract claims", "but even if all of this wasn't substantively breach of contract claim turning specifically to the fraud pleadings i wanna just highlight in my time left two failings in that respect", "i know that north presidio relies primarily on the relaxed pleading standards for the facts within the defendant's knowledge but that has no applicability to the first failing of their fraud claim which related to the duty to disclose", "even assuming there's a duty to disclose here furnished on partial disclosures north presidio gave no elaboration on what those partial disclosures were when exactly they occurred over the course of these weekly conference calls that could have happened at any more from a year plus long period or who from lowe's affirmatively made those partial disclosures", "all of those facts were within north presidio's knowledge and their failure to plead them with specificity derails their fraud claim from the outset even with respect to facts that perhaps were within lowe's exclusive knowledge the relaxed pleading standards for information and belief are not an exception to the particularity requirements under rule 9b that's in the bell helicopter case nor are they a license to make allegations on information and belief but yet omit any factual basis for them that's from the willard case", "and so here what you have is a multimonth period in which lowe's must have decided that it wasn't following through and must have allegedly been able to disclose that but that allegation could be copied and pasted into any breach of contract case", "for that reason because the pleadings are deficient we respectfully request that the court affirm", "thank you your honors", "thank you sir", "mr leonard you have five minutes on rebuttal", "yes your honor", "i would like to follow up on the fraud claim", "the nature of our fraud claim as i mentioned is that at some point in time lowe's knew they were not gonna go forward with our project", "we know at least at the time they told us it was terminated", "we also know that a few months before there was as we plead there was a new ceo and that there was announced a plan to close stores as well as reevaluate the new developments", "we don't know when that point in time occurred", "we won't know until we take discovery", "those are facts only within the mindset a little bit in the knowledge of lowe's", "if the decision was made and they allowed us to continue working and doing site development work then we have the fraud by nondisclosure because as we plead we had meeting after meeting week after week after week when we told them what we're doing they said we're fine keep going every meeting looks good", "that's the basis we claim", "we do not have the facts nor would we until we have discovery to plead into particularity", "that is why we are relying upon the relaxed standards", "as far as the economic loss goes counsel is exactly like what we stated", "this is an alternative pleading", "if there is a contract if the sda is enforceable then we would go under that particular theory we would not have half a fraud claim", "but the right to damages the right to reimbursement doesn't come under the executed contract", "it comes under the site development agreement which was never executed", "and if the court finds that is not enforceable then we certainly it would take it outside the economic loss provision because the duties were not set by a contract because the contract didn't exist", "nor would the rights or damages be based upon contract because the contract does not exist", "that is why it is an alternative pleading", "and then as far as the nature of our duty they made the argument that we're adopting a new statement section that the texas supreme court has not addressed", "well actually he cited the statute the fraud by nondisclosure elements from this court's opinion", "and then we cited also the reply brief at the supreme court although they noted that they had not officially adopted the statement provisions about fraud by nondisclosure that it did not hold the other cases that was addressing that did say there's a duty to disclose based upon partial disclosures", "it did not hail it was wrongly decided", "rather it basically said the evidence before it didn't support an application", "so that's the nature of our fraud claim", "we go back to the situation that you think if the contract itself if the sda cannot be enforceable under these circumstances i believe the facts do relate it to be enforceable we should be able to recover the very least of the promissory estoppel because they certainly did tell us as we pled that their intention was to consummate agreement enter into the ground lease ecr the site development agreement and relying upon that we spent substantial funds developing that and incurred expenses upon that", 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{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca9.04-15531.2005-11-18.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.ca9.04-15531", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca9.04-15531.2005-11-18.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [1050, 1260, 3760, 5100, 2280, 8950, 1707, 2210, 7520, 5300, 3473, 5387, 8010, 5270, 8170, 5440, 1695, 5415, 7890, 8530, 8500, 1075, 5897, 3720, 4160, 6040, 3890, 3490, 4300, 10982, 7650, 13050, 6919, 11684, 4040, 1746, 8580, 4233, 3869, 6418, 5640, 3550, 3590, 11460, 4280, 6730, 9460, 10730, 6280, 11640, 5130, 6610, 7520, 6890, 5870, 7667, 13773, 900, 3000, 5850, 21310, 1370, 5750, 8010, 7140, 6040, 3840, 6810, 5750, 11080, 3200, 2540, 6340, 5810, 4277, 10190, 4440, 1970, 9420, 7880, 4160, 6730, 18820, 6540, 6680, 1810, 2260, 6420, 1400, 9840, 3430, 17910, 6180, 3150, 7780, 12980, 6510, 14730, 10320, 8310, 4270, 5000, 9140, 8390, 7070, 2760, 11000, 11290, 16323, 3777, 2750, 3140, 3400, 6240, 7870, 8010, 9760, 5210, 5380, 8997, 14623, 12610, 6850, 8450, 14740, 7230, 4600, 4520, 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5900, 3690, 7280, 4220, 14690, 8770, 4816, 6613, 3740, 5840, 8600, 3880, 1353, 897, 2143, 833, 1247, 8160, 24950, 9980, 23550, 6380, 11320, 13260, 4960, 7540, 7993, 9037, 2300, 7550, 7590, 2260, 1940, 3290, 6430, 4080, 9080, 5400, 5950, 9070, 4480, 4770, 14100, 2130, 1830, 2800, 2590, 2030], "label": ["councilman", "thank you judge chamberlain", "and may it please i'm david frederick for fidelity", "this case raises important issues concerning the rights mr mr", "frederick before we get started", "how are we going to allocate time on both sides here well we assume we have twenty minutes because we're all right and then the other side has a total of twenty", "that's correct all right great then", "and i would like to reserve some time for", "fidelity is a non party to this action and seeks to protect the confidentiality of its business secrets", "even though the trial ended last year fidelity is here today because it is a repeat player", "it routinely received civil investigative demands from the government", "it has received six in the last year with one more believed to be eminent", "as a result the issues that are positive here today are capable of repetition yet evading review", "the fact that we've waited a year now since the end of the briefing to get an oral argument date", "and the trial has ended suggests that this kind of issue is difficult to get through the normal appellate process", "we did everything we could to get before this court we brought a petition for mandamus and emergency appeal", "all of those efforts were set back", "but isn't this case moot at this point no it is not for three reasons", "first the doctrine of capable of repetition yet evading review falls squarely within this type of circumstance", "where the normal means of obtaining appellate review would simply be too slow for the pace of the litigation as it is arisen", "all right is there any showing that there's something out there right now that would be effected by our interpreting this as not moot", "that was going to be my second point", "that is that these documents are still in oracle's possession", "they have not been destroyed or turned back to our knowledge", "pending the resolution of this appeal wherever this appeal may go", "those documents are still operating under the protective order that the judge entered in this case", "that permits oracle's inhouse counsel to have access to them", "if the documents have in fact been returned", "and are no longer in the possession of the counsel", "then it would be moot wouldn't it no my third argument judge goodwin is that the information that was permitted to be disclosed is still subject to disclosure standards", "that would give fidelity an opportunity to bring an action under the california uniform trade secrets act", "so if there was a declaration by this court that the blanket disclosure allowed by the judge and the access to inhouse counsel somehow did create an inadvertent disclosure", "we would have an opportunity under that statute to bring an action for wrongful abuse of this information", "the documents are disclosed to counsel under seal and are later returned to the custodian of the files wherever they came from", "then there's no case or controversy it's still alive and you get one of these", "we call them", "and wouldn't this be eligible for a if the documents or counsel had a peekaboo look at them", "but they they're still under seal they would be in contempt of court if they released them", "it certainly would be appropriate to issue a order in this circumstance", "and we would urge the court to do so for reasons of judicial administration", "we've cited a case in our reply brief a fourth circuit case called nra pruitt which is on page fourteen", "the citation of that case is on page fourteen of our reply brief", "and that case raised a very similar type of problem", "a discovery order had been issued by the district judge and when the government petition for a mandamus to have that order withdrawn the discovery demand was withdrawn", "a voluntary action if you will to try to moot the government's appeal", "and what the fourth circuit said and citing a number of cases from other circuits but no cases from this circuit", "said that when there are issues of judicial administration the reasons animating them the capable of repetition yet evading review doctrine", "should be dealt with in an appropriate manner so that the course of appeals have an opportunity to render decisions that would guide the conduct of the district courts", "there is no decision in any court of appeals under the antitrust civil process act the acpa", "and the reason we submit is because when parties like or nonparties like fidelity get wrapped up in the kinds of actions that the government brought here", "there's simply no time to be able to assert their rights and vindicate them on appeal", "what the district court did here was it sanctioned an expedient action on the part of the parties", "to turn over the entire civil investigative demand file that the government had accumulated in its month's long investigation", "without giving them the confidentiality protections that one thousand three hundred and thirteen c demands of the government", "it didn't even follow the rule 26a1 initial disclosure standards", "which would allow for initial disclosure only if the documents are to advance a claim or a defense of the disclosing parties", "were most of the key documents actually used in the prosecution of the trial to the contrary most of the documents that fidelity turned over there's no claim that there was any use at all", "wait wait", "i can understand if you're talking about the mass of documents", "but i thought there were seven particularly sensitive documents that you were most exercised about", "that's right and to clarify my question goes to those seven documents weren't they used to prepare witnesses for depositions given to expert witnesses as part of their work and used at the trial they were not used at the time the government launched its complaint there was no contemplation of use as to those documents", "my question", "this goes really to the mootness issue weren't those documents actually used not all of them", "all right how many of them we know that at least four were used by four out of the seven four out of the seven were used", "you're complaining about the three well no even as to those four judge tolman we have a claim under the att case", "which the government has set forth in its policy manual as guiding the definition of use", "and the att case set a standard that was not met here", "that is that the government determines before it intends to use them that there will be a use", "and that was not satisfied at the time the disclosure was made", "the fact that we had to turn over all these documents and provided a roadmap if you will for oracle doesn't a satisfy mootness concern", "because the cat had already been out of the bag at that time", "well it is a chicken and egg problem", "in order to conduct reasonable discovery the justice department issues it's civil investigative demands", "and it can't know at the beginning of the investigation where the documents are going to lead it", "i'm not sure what you're asking us to do in terms of guiding the district courts", "a protective order is the classic way that we ensure that no harm will befall the owner of the document from release of", "and it looked to me like judge walker entered a pretty comprehensive protective order", "we're asking for two things judge tolman", "number one we're asking this court to say that before cid materials can be disclosed by the government in an antitrust action", "it has to make a determination with particularity that it will use those documents that was not done here", "secondly if that use determination is made", "you say use those documents would it be sufficient under the test that you're trying to get us to adopt if", "in response to the rule sixteen pretrial order that the documents were listed as potential exhibits that might be used either on direct or cross examination of witnesses or would you require more well the att court went through this and i would direct the court's attention to that we cited it in both of our briefs", "but that's a comprehensive opinion in which it explains that uses are for things like pretrial exhibits", "for uses in depositions of witnesses for propounding interrogatories and discovery requests", "for backup to the complaint", "here none of that was done", "it was simply a blanket disclosure that went beyond even the normal initial discovery process of rule 26a", "and we object to that", "but secondly as to your point about the documents actually used in the litigation we would ask this court to follow the decision in the dentsply case", "or not to follow it but to make it the law of the ninth circuit", "and to opine that only in extraordinary circumstances if that dissemination of documents is going to be made would it be allowed to go to inhouse counsel here well but wasn't dentsply the case where there was only one general counsel", "here we've got fifty five we've got them divided up like a law firm with different departments", "and judge walker essentially approved you didn't use the term", "but he essentially approved a chinese wall between the two oracle inhouse lawyers and the rest of the general counsel", "judge tolman the problem here is that the people that were approved by judge walker were the very people who had approved and been working with oracle in the hartscottrodino premerger clearance process", "the judge said they aren't involved in competitive decisionmaking because they don't do the licensing for oracle or its software", "but these are the very people who are advising the executives in the company on what would be the relevant market how the department of what about the fact that judge walker found that there had recently been a change of counsel of outside counsel", "and that these two inhouse lawyers were needed in order to in essence represent the client's interests in getting the new outside counsel up to speed", "i think if you look at the documents themselves and we filed them under seal as volume three of the excerpts of record", "it will be clear to you why fidelity care so much about these documents", "and why the access to inhouse counsel is so sensitive", "those documents are forwardlooking business plans that contain the most sensitive kind of economic and commercial information", "the outside counsel judge tolman had absolutely no problem understanding the significance of those documents and why they were important to fidelity", "and in fact they will tell you now that throughout this process they kept their promise not to show it to inhouse counsel", "but they did that at a very high cost", "and that cost was the use of the access and the potential access to coerce further discovery from fidelity that it otherwise would not have been able to do", "and it knew what the documents were so under the threat that they would be turned over to inhouse counsel oracle repeatedly extracted discovery concessions", "you're not arguing are you counsel that the information cannot be compelled at all you're arguing that it must be if it has to be compelled because it's relevant to the subjects of the antitrust investigation", "it just needs to be better protected than it was", "we're saying two things it does need to be better protected", "but there also needs to be an extraordinary showing of need", "and what the dentsply court did was apply a threepart test", "which we think properly vindicates the interests of nonparties in these cid situations", "number one it said the court should make an extraordinary showing that these documents have to be disclosed to inhouse counsel", "number two that the filtering mechanisms between outside counsel and inhouse counsel have to be shown to be inadequate", "and number three that the representations made by outside counsel have to be shown to be insufficient to advance the interests of the client", "here none of those had been shown in fact what the court did was to apply the brown bag test", "which we think is perfectly appropriate when there's private litigation between two parties", "but doesn't take into account the interests of a non party that has provided sensitive information to facilitate the government's investigation", "why would it be any different why wouldn't brown bag cover the situation why would it be any different if we're talking about well brown bag concerned very sensitive information in which two litigants were fighting with each other", "and the question is how do you vindicate the interest of the litigants to advance their claims against the claim that there might be an inadvertent disclosure here fidelity is a complete innocent bystander to this", "we provided this yeah but fidelity has very articulately identified its concerns and that is in front of the george walker", "and judge walker aired by not taking into account the very high risk of inadvertent disclosure", "and not requiring oracle to make the extraordinary showing that would vindicate the confidentiality policies that congress enacted when it provided this mechanism for doj to get information", "didn't he include provisions in the protective order that say you can't even transmit these documents through an oracle server", "it has to be a completely separate dedicated mechanism", "that looked to me to be pretty extraordinary based on my experience with protected", "it certainly was an extraordinary measure but your honor when an inhouse counsel has the capacity to see the information which is in volume three", "and now we know through public sources that oracle is in fact seeking to acquire an entity that was a cid recipient in this very investigation", "it's pretty clear i think that you could be as wellmeaning and as ethical a lawyer as possible", "but still be affected by the information that you might glean that would be highly sensitive", "but the logical extension of your argument is to in essence impose a blanket rule that inhouse counsel must never be allowed to see this type of thing", "no what the dentsply court said is that there has to be an extraordinary showing", "and we think that there ought to be a presumption when you provide government compelled process to obtain information from nonparties who are facilitating the government's investigation", "so that those confidentiality interests can be vindicated", "because if you don't here's the consequence that as a recipient of a cid will think at the very beginning the government's promise of confidentiality is not worth the paper that it's written on", "i'm going to fight it from the getgo and that would have terrible policy consequences because the government issues about seven hundred of these cids per year", "and if you have district courts all around the country taking claims by cid recipients that are attempting to seek further protection", "or to narrow the scope of the cid", "then you're going to bring a very significant halt to the government's investigative efforts", "if i could reserve what is the standard of review with respect to what judge walker did under brown bag well the application of what we have our third issue would be abusive discretion", "whether or not he should have considered the policies of the acpa is a error of law that is subject to de nova review", "and our first issue is also de nova", "thank you thank you", "good morning", "good morning your honors", "my name is john fante i'm from the us department of justice representing the united states", "your honors the government believes that this mr fante before you get started", "how do you and mr yates propose to allocate the twenty minutes yes your honor", "this morning i will be using appellate's first ten minutes to address the acpa issue that fidelity has raised", "and mr yates who represents oracle will address the seven highly sensitive documents issue", "thank you", "the government believes that this case should be dismissed because fidelity waved its claim under the antitrust civil process act or the acpa", "and because fidelity's claim regarding its seven highly confidential documents is moot", "not only did fidelity fail to raise the acpa issue below but it repeatedly told both this court and the district court that it had no issue with production of its documents to outside counsel", "at the hearing fidelity expressly told the court that it was content it said with the protections that were in place with respect to outside counsel", "and then their mandamus reply in this court which was quoted on page fifteen of the united states brief", "fidelity explained why it was content with disclosure to the outside counsel", "it stated that most of the documents produced were contracts between fidelity and oracle", "and that because there was not going to be public disclosure of those documents under the protective order the documents themselves presented no concerns if disclosed to oracle's counsel", "including the internal counsel and they are adequately protected by the district court's order", "also in the district court fidelity suggested to the court that it employed the brown bag approach", "or have fidelity utilize the brown bag approach of having outside counsel review the seven highly sensitive documents to see if disclosure to inside counsel was essential", "under these circumstances fidelity's complete acquiescence in allowing outside counsel to review its entire cid production without any complaint whatsoever constitutes a total waiver of fesco's aspa claim", "but even if it is not waived fidelity is wrong with its acpa argument", "both the language of the statute and its legislative history confirm that although cid material is afforded complete confidentiality during the investigative phase", "excuse me", "when an investigation leads to a civil action the defendant is allowed full discovery of cid materials under the federal rules", "now this morning", "fidelity quoted fifteen usc one thousand three hundred and thirteen c", "and that does in fact apply to the document custodian during the investigation", "and that expressly states that while the documents are in the possession of the custodian no cid material shall be available for examination by any individual other than a duly authorized doj employee", "however fifteen usc one thousand three hundred and thirteen d", "which discusses and rules utilization of investigative material it states that the custodian may give a division attorney appearing in a litigation cid material for official use as that attorney determines to be required", "the statute therefore gives the attorney appearing in the case broad discretion on how to use cid material", "and certainly complying with valid cid requests", "i'm sorry", "valid discovery requests is official use within that discretion", "in fact nothing in the statute suggests that it alters in any way the government's discovery obligations under the federal rules", "in fact the legislative history confirms that this interpretation is correct by drawing an unequivocal distinction between the investigation and any resulting litigation", "but would it be fair to say that that the acpa is essentially a mirror of the rule sixty grand jury material protection under criminal investigation that once the indictment or in this case the civil complaint is filed then to some extent the", "trout of secrecy has to be lifted because of the interests of the parties in having access to the information for trial", "yes your honor", "i think in the legislative history congress said that it is similar to that to the extent that once the civil action is commenced", "the defendant has to have access through the discovery process to relevant material in the possession of the united states", "that is relevant or likely to lead to relevant evidence to its defense", "and the committee stressed that nothing in the bill in any way altered the federal rules", "your honors congress enacted the acpa to assist in accomplishing its antitrust enforcement effort", "the division has a very strong incentive to encourage voluntary cooperation with our cid requests", "and while i do not want to dwell on the argument regarding the seven documents", "in terms of", "the voluntary cooperation and the brown bag test that the district court applied", "we agree with fidelity on that point as we stated in our brief", "that encouraging voluntary cooperation with the cid requests is very very important to the department's enforcement effort", "congress passed this act", "if you read the first few pages of the house report it explains that congress passed this act recognizing that the clayton antitrust act for example is an incipiencies statute", "and the department has to work very quickly on their hartscottrodino timeframes in order to decide whether or not to bring a pre merger enforcement action", "this case demonstrates that cid recipients are concerned about their competitor's lawyers seeing their confidential business information", "ten of those cid recipients filed objections to the district court's intention to allow inhouse counsel access to the most highly sensitive documents", "and five took the trouble to show up in the district court", "yet the district court we believe as does fidelity failed to take into consideration that it's just broad disclosure", "which at least with respect to the seven documents at issue here resulted that that the court's decision was wrong", "because it had a broad blanket decision that all of these materials have to be accessed by fidelity's inside counsel", "and yet we know now that they did not have to be", "and so in terms of reaching the brown bag decision if this court decides to do so we would urge the court to put a gloss", "as the dentsply case did on that brown bag standard", "so that it takes into consideration the importance of encouraging cid voluntary performance", "well are you suggesting that if we get to the merits and it's not moot that we would affirm on the basis of dentsply affirm the district court right no your honor", "we would ask you to say that the district court erred because it applied the wrong standard in excuse me in applying what would the practical result be of that if we were to follow your analysis and the analysis of mr frederick well i think that's a problem with this case your honor like i said earlier we do believe that that issue is moot", "the practical result in terms of fidelity here would be nothing i believe", "mr frederick said that there would be some possibility if they discover ultimately that there was some type of disclosure that resulted in harm", "but excuse me the district court not the district court but fidelity", "fidelity i'm sorry", "oracle has in fact given fidelity all the relief that they can possibly get i believe", "with respect to the seven documents", "thank you counsel that's all i have", "all right", "we'll hear from mr yates i believe", "may it please the court i'm christopher yates and i represent oracle corporation", "in my time i'd like to address three issues the first is the fact that this appeal is moot", "the second is the inequities of fidelity's construction of the acpa to an antitrust defendant in this case oracle", "the third is challenge to judge walker's brownbag balancing", "throughout though i think it's important as this court has recognized to keep in mind what is really at issue here", "we're talking not about unfettered disclosure of documents to a competitor or to the wall street journal", "what we're talking about here is disclosure of documents to outside counsel and some documents to inhouse counsel to two specified inhouse counsel who are litigators", "subject to the protections of a very strict protective order", "on the mootness point mootness is always a threshold issue of course", "the underlying case here has been over for more than a year no appeal was taken", "and oracle contrary to what mr frederick said has complied with the protective order by shredding fesco's documents and certifying destruction", "what that means is that under the protective order under paragraph twenty two of the protective order which is at er two hundred and ninety five", "that latham and watkins is permitted to retain copies of certain documents in its files", "for instance our file for this appeal has the document that was filed under seal", "however latham and watkins is under court order not to disclose such files to any person except pursuant to court order or agreement of fidelity", "there's nothing more for this court to do there's no order there's no relief that fidelity well now what about the argument mr frederick makes about capable of repetition but evading review", "your honor i don't think this is such a circumstance", "most cases involving cids last far longer than this case", "this case went from the complaint being filed to final judgment in a mere seven months", "most cases involving cids or price fixing in other cases that last for years", "i think more importantly there's nothing in the record that suggests that fidelity has been subject to other cids that have resulted in litigation", "most cids most investigations never result in litigation", "so there's nothing in the record that suggests that fidelity there's a reasonable expectation which i believe is the standard that fidelity will confront this issue again", "now turning to the acpa i'd like to provide the court with a defendant's perspective on the acpa", "sir i there anything imminent you heard my exchange with mr frederick is there something pending or about to happen that might give them some cause to be concerned there's nothing that i can imagine that would give them cause for concern", "especially when you have the protective order that was entered by judge walker which provides all the relief that they're entitled to", "it orders latham and watkins not to disclose the documents to any person", "turning to the acpa", "and briefly i'd like to discuss fidelity's construction of the acpa in the inequities", "that fidelity's construction would result for an antitrust defendant", "in this case the complaint was filed in february of two thousand and four the department of justice by that time had the cid power for over eight months", "and it used that cid power to amass a great volume of material to take dozens upon dozens of cid depositions", "and it used that it used that cid power to attempt to understand the market that was allegedly impacted by this proposed acquisition", "to formulate its theory of the case and ultimately to craft the complaint that it filed oracle in contrast when this complaint was filed had a mere four months to prepare for a month long bench trial", "but under fidelity's construction of the stature oracle was not entitled to one page of cid material until it was they say directly used at either a deposition or a trial", "that would permit the department of justice to cherry pick the helpful information and exclude the exculpatory information", "it's counter to all known principles of civil discovery and due process", "it just cannot be right", "it's not countered to the experience of practitioners in grand jury investigations", "who sit by helplessly while the government does what it's going to do and the grand jury's waiting for the hammer to fall", "and see what you get indicted or not", "but your honor once litigation i think as your honor pointed out once litigation commences i believe even under sixteen documents exactly", "as mr fante pointed out there's no support for the fidelity's position in either the statute or in the legislative history on the brownbag point i think what fidelity is asking this court to do is to second guess the issues that are fundamentally entrusted to the trial court", "and to second guess judge walker's management of a highly complex case and his findings", "you recall i asked mr frederick about our standard or review what's your analysis of that your honor i believe on the standard of review that this court looks at judge walker's factual findings for clear error", "and then when this court is reviewing judge walker's balancing under the brown bag test you look at that under an abusive discretion standard", "well what about the legal argument suggestion i think on the legal argument if there truly is a legal argument i'll get to that one second", "i believe you would review that under de novo review", "however i don't think there's a legal argument here i don't think this court needs to construct a new standard as fidelity suggests", "first of all i think it's important to note that fidelity told judge walker to apply brown bag below", "more importantly brown bag is a flexible standard it's an inherently flexible standard", "that's sufficient to account for any of the myriad of confidentiality concerns that can arise", "and here what we're talking about and the confidentiality policies that animate the acpa are simply that the department of justice does not want to permit confidential documents to be turned over to a competitor", "that's the same standard that this court applies when applying rule twenty six", "that competitors should not have access to highly confidential documents of another company", "now and this court should not start down the slippery slope of constructing modified brownbag tests for each new set of facts that arises", "that's just going to lead to error below in the district courts and utter confusion", "now fidelity then says that judge walker did not appropriately balance the competing interest under brown bag", "but i think it's important for this court to review what judge walker actually did in this case", "he required oracle to provide evidence substantiating its assertions that the two inhouse lawyers the two inhouse litigators at issue were not involved in competitive decision making", "he asked the parties to provide answers and oracle to provide answers to a variety of questions", "based upon this court's a brownbag opinion", "and also the us steel opinion which is the other leading opinion in this area out of the federal circuit", "in a response oracle provided detailed declarations from the two inhouse counsel and also from its lead trial counsel mr wall", "that evidence which was unrebutted established that the inhouse lawyers were not involved in competitive decision making", "and i submit that competitive decisionmaking is really the key thing in this balancing test", "and they also established why the involvement of the inhouse counsel was crucial to oracle's defense", "because as judge tolman recognized latham and watkins had only been recently engaged", "and the inhouse lawyers had been involved in the hartscottrodino process", "now judge walker then heard argument", "he actually reviewed one of the fidelity documents that's an issue in this appeal", "that's in er two hundred and sixty three where judge walker mentions that and then he made findings applying brownbag", "fidelity clearly disagrees with the findings that judge walker made", "but there's no abuse of discretion there's no clear error here", "there's no support for fidelity's suggestion that judge walker was required to conduct some kind of document by document review", "before he applied his brown bag balancing", "in practical terms that would have brought this case to a grinding halt and would essentially be a presumption in any case with any substantial number of documents that inhouse counsel are not going to be given access to any highly confidential documents", "now judge walker recognized and i think this court's brown bag opinion the us steel court recognized that inhouse counsel are not to be treated as secondhand citizens", "the dentsply case that mr frederick referred to is a completely different circumstance", "there you had a general counsel who was involved in merger and acquisition activity who was involved in contract negotiations", "obtaining access to competitor's information about marginal costs", "and the like would be highly relevant to his performance of his duties", "and the unrebutted evidence here is the inhouse counsel had no involvement whatsoever in competitive decisionmaking", "they're litigators they were members of the trial team and there was no abuse of discretion", "thank you", "thank you counsel", "mr frederick you have some reserve time", "thank you", "i'll start with the waiver", "at the hearing on march the 19th counsel for fidelity stated and this is on excerpts of record page two hundred and nine", "quote it was fidelity's express expectation that that information the cid would be afforded all of the protections available in the statute the acpa as judge green said in the att case to which i draw the court's attention the information that's supplied by third parties under cid is not to be produced wholesale as part of an investigation or ensuing litigation", "it requires much more careful consideration with respect to who gets what we weren't a party when the initial disclosure order was issued", "we were invited for the limited purpose of saying now that the disclosure has been made is there some further protection that you can get for that reason this court's decision in the united states versus carlson which says that there are exceptional circumstances an issue that wasn't expressly pressed below will be acceptable for review here", "we didn't have an opportunity to contest the blanket disclosure until all of the documents had already been turned over", "with respect to mootness mr yates himself in writing promised that he would not argue mootness the day before our appellate brief in this court was filed", "i direct the court to reply brief footnote six which explains exactly the kinds of discovery concessions mr yates himself was attempting to extract from fidelity", "and they strung out this process in a way that has made the mootness problem", "for that reason i think the court ought to take into account the fact that this issue is capable of repetition yet evading review", "fidelity now has a civil investigative demand and a merger case that it is considering how to respond to the government", "well what's your response to the claim that none of these other cids are on a fast track like this one was", "this is an unusual case in our experience", "we've cited the statistics that in these merger cases they tend to go much faster than the appellate process", "and i would simply note for the court that not withstanding the fact that there are these schisms between non parties in the department", "there's not a single report at appellate decision", "and that ought to speak for itself", "fidelity is here because the other courts found mootness", "well because no people haven't taken appeals because it is thought that is going to be difficult to do", "but because fidelity is a repeat player that's why we're here", "in the number of contexts in abortion in free speech in the education act this court has said that if capable of repetition yet evading review", "our addressability problem is not going to be an impediment to the court deciding the issue", "i direct the court to the board of education versus raleigh case which we've cited in our briefs", "there the school year had ended before the court of appeals had an opportunity to determine whether or not the person's rights over the handicapped act had been satisfied", "finally judge tolman with respect to your point about the grand jury information", "the cuisinart case which we cited in our brief directly addresses this", "and in footnote thirteen of that opinion judge cabranes who's a very respected judge explains why this cid information should be given the exact same kind of confidentiality concerns that grand jury material is", "i have more to say but my time has expired", "thank you counsel your time indeed has expired", "the case just argued will be submitted for a decision", "and we thank counsel for excellent argument in that case", "yeah thank you all that was very helpful"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.ca9.04-15531/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca9_DOT_04-15531/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca9_DOT_04-15531_DOT_2005-11-18_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "gov.uscourts.ca9.04-15531/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca9_DOT_04-15531/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca9_DOT_04-15531_DOT_2005-11-18_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "gov.uscourts.ca9.04-15531/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca9_DOT_04-15531/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca9_DOT_04-15531_DOT_2005-11-18_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "gov.uscourts.ca9.04-15531/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca9_DOT_04-15531/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca9_DOT_04-15531_DOT_2005-11-18_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-15-1693WC.2016-01-27.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-15-1693WC", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-15-1693WC.2016-01-27.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [3454, 10086, 913, 1103, 4056, 833, 5646, 1610, 3560, 4280, 11300, 1540, 833, 2497, 3670, 5433, 3314, 8983, 7260, 1250, 1620, 3760, 1860, 2070, 3560, 8927, 6881, 833, 1089, 833, 5667, 2653, 1321, 5515, 1780, 833, 2940, 3043, 1099, 8808, 8278, 10266, 10452, 1930, 1470, 5943, 10320, 2530, 7740, 2346, 833, 833, 833, 16125, 6237, 3359, 18517, 4987, 1760, 6580, 10000, 10990, 2040, 8360, 1090, 1753, 5347, 2870, 1700, 8068, 2916, 1500, 5002, 1269, 4083, 4930, 2257, 4233, 2300, 2920, 1200, 2094, 2889, 11863, 9046, 1205, 9266, 1360, 3610, 4930, 7566, 4690, 10300, 4179, 1416, 14358, 5101, 2770, 2723, 1787, 9843, 6648, 2645, 14284, 1290, 1449, 1827, 10530, 6470, 2871, 10090, 3809, 6200, 21447, 2303, 3340, 8213, 6604, 4110, 12060, 10800, 1680, 13040, 7175, 5735, 12180, 6540, 8920, 16083, 3312, 5058, 9124, 2363, 25605, 4345, 4850, 2253, 13190, 11003, 11577, 9055, 1307, 1306, 11241, 3390, 22142, 1502, 8403, 2629, 5543, 21550, 3262, 10565, 8169, 5574, 3103, 1801, 1741, 1144, 10320], "label": ["madam clerk please call the last case in the morning", "one fifteen sixteen ninety three fifteenth seventh worth thirty nine arrears you also you may approach and proceed", "thank you", "good morning", "may i please the court half full my name is karen kun", "i'm here on behalf of united airlines", "this i assert as a flight attendant who was injured on a flight from her home in denver to laguardia airport", "she was not working on that flight", "she was scheduled to work the following day out of jfk", "as well established the accidents occurring while coming and going to work are not compensable", "there's two issues raised here whether she was somehow a traveling employee at the time of the accident or whether she could fall into a community exception because the travel is due to the demands and exigencies of her employment", "we believe the commission in this case", "got it right", "and holding that the accident was not compensable", "our arguments here today are slightly different than the rationale they provided", "we don't disagree with their analysis but we think that their decision was bolstered by the subsequent canyon prior decision", "she was not traveling for work at the time she was commuting", "and in order to understand and be clear on the circumstances that occasion that travel you have to be very clear on the facts in the record and how the travel came about", "well the defects here are really the basic facts are not disputed are they the facts are not disputed but the circuit court got the facts completely wrong", "well that's probably true", "that's probably true but we don't care", "let's just talk about what the law is that applies to the facts", "we know she's living in colorado", "we know she's flying out of jfk", "she's living in colorado she's flying out of jfk", "so let's start out with the basic principle that if you are effective worker or you're working at mcdonald's or anywhere and you drive there is your commute", "if you're that's part of your regular commute do you get compensated if you have an accident no", "okay", "and that's what you're saying applies here", "that's already said", "she is not on the clock she was not working when she was traveling flying from colorado to new york with anybody say she was working", "no she testified she was not working", "she testified there was no business purpose", "for a basis is she a traveling employee we don't think she was she's not a traveling employee", "she chose to live in colorado", "exactly", "she could have lived two miles from she's traveling where", "commute", "exactly", "when she gets out of the airplane that's something different about this obviously when she gets to jfk when she gets to her employment premises then she starts her workrelated job", "can i ask him why that wasn't a regular commute to new york that anybody else would be committing to their job whether it's two miles or a thousand miles you're still convenient three", "yes but let me ask you this and this is has been impacted by venture newburg right obviously the supreme court took the case from this panel", "is there any difference if somebody is a you know working at a permanent location or as a temporary employee is that they're on the analysis well dr", "newburg was a temporary employee", "it was not a permanent point", "but the what deserting bird found what the supreme court found was that he was not directed there by his employer", "so the question is whose choice is it so if it's a temporary job where the employer says we need you to go down here for awhile and work this other job that's at the employer's direction", "and then the accident is compensable", "eventually newburg the employer the employee chose to live miles away from the employment site and in this case you're saying she did the exact same thing", "he chose to live in another state", "exactly", "okay", "and she did that for sixteen years", "so it occurs to me your argument boils down to the fact that even if you're dealing with a traveling employee if the injury occurs in nonworkrelated travel to where you begin your workday from home", "and in that particular case it does not arise out of the employment", "yes it does not occur in the course of your employment", "yes your employment does not by a definition but your definition of a traveling employee it's someone who travels away from the employment premises to perform their job duties in this case her employment premises for the purposes of that analysis is jfk she was based on jfk on trips started and ended at jfk", "and so while she's working on those trips if she's on layover in shanghai she can go out to eat", "she can ride an elephant she can do whatever she want", "as long as it's reasonable and foreseeable she's in the course of her employment however her regular commute is not covered", "she's not a traveling employee while she's on her regular commute to the office just as lang and pryor on his regular commute to his employer's premises is not covering", "oh if she had a stop off somewhere first on the way to jfk and do something that was work related then the argument might be different correct that's the traditional traveling employee", "but your argument is very simple", "she is simply doing her regular commute to jfk to begin her workday if somebody driving to a factory would be as an accident", "exactly", "and so how does the circuit court", "got it wrong because they got the first first they got the first three facts wrong", "they started it by saying the facts are not dispute", "they then said on september three", "w we we don't care what the circuit court did were terrible to commission and it was unfortunate", "i asked that question in all fairness just to", "they didn't base it on", "what would the facts that were in the record they made some assumptions and some stuff they said", "no i was drinking the question", "justice hudson yes sir", "the record as long as you look just look at the record in this case i don't think there's any questions", "she was just on her regular commute", "miss icer testified you know she's not paid for any of these expenses", "she's not directed by her employer", "she's not even guaranteed a seat while she's commuting", "there's no way of guaranteeing", "she's going to make a community shift", "that's a risk that she takes by commuting", "well we are talking about it what was the commute under the direction of the employer and you're saying it was not it was not because if it was we have a different animal that's what your argument would be", "that is my argument okay uh huh well it seems that you well understand my arguments i'm going to stand on my brief talk to my council", "okay thank you", "okay thank you council council may you respond the petitioner this is groundhogs day", "the movie from bill murray", "i tried this case before i tried it in two thousand and three", "i tried it with the exact same facts that are in front of the entire panel today", "and the commission said back in two thousand and three which by the way was never overturned and is still the controlling law here today", "the commissioner jacks that the petitioner was merely in transit on her way to work", "so as to take her out of the course of employment at the time of her fall rather than record supports finding that the petitioner is properly considered a traveling employee under the app", "and that worked for respondent clearly created the necessity for travel", "i think that was a commission decision", "it was a commission decision how is the controlling law when it's not overturned by your arms precedential value to us where are we going to done let's assume you were absolutely correct", "have you heard of adventure uber uber just doesn't make a decision that she's a traveling employee that actually uber", "it makes a decision that she isn't a traveling employee", "uber then goes to the decision that let's go to", "the second analysis", "does her commute create an exception for the general rule that community is how could it ever who chose the little total who told her to live in colorado", "but venturing uber is a case where a petitioner gets transferred to a job", "that's two hundred miles from where his home is", "get a hotel and take that job and he likes to drive to and from the hotel that's the sheet that for his job but the difference between that is judge", "the difference between that is venture", "uber is a short time parttime position", "it's not sixteen years in duration", "the petitioner is not reimbursed for monthly travel the petitioner is that she's not reimbursed for the travel from colorado to new york", "she was giving travel expenses that she uses for travel from new york to colorado let me ask you a honest question", "did she get reimbursed for travel from colorado or new york", "reimburses as a hot for parking for parking for her park lands free for airline travel street both of those benefits are provided by united", "she can use those benefits to fly to hong kong", "so can anybody mr mckenzie mr mckenzie i'm going to make it real simple for you", "a guy is a traveling salesman and every day he begins his work and his employer's office and then travels around with seller's goods all day comes back to his employer's office and then goes home or you need to suggest me to traveling from his house to his employer's office in the morning is compensable", "that's what it says", "is it make sure you're part of a traveling to play when you're committing to work", "melissa says that a traveling employee and employee who trails is considered in the course of their employment the moment he or she leaves his report", "mr leona would you please be quiet while i'm talking to several generally that's true", "when you leave your home and begin your travel", "and that means beginning your job many traveling employees leave from their house to go see their clients et cetera and so on and we would say then that the incident he leaves his house", "he is a traveling employee in this particular case no one told this woman to live in colorado she couldn't live in new york and she didn't have to travel that", "well let me grab something out of his answer", "why is that person he decided a traveling employee because from the moment they leave their house they're working they're doing their work performance okay she's at an airplane not in uniform", "you tell me what work she was doing when she was flying from cloud rattle to new york what job related activities where she performed", "and if there were an urgency contingency she would've had to work at flight just like a flight attendant and she got", "out of her uniform she wasn't working at anything if there was an emergency contingency she would have to work and that again will confusing a travel and employee analysis with the analysis under venture uber which isn't a traveling plan", "it's just under an analysis because she wasn't doing anything related to a job until she gets to jail", "f k the commission in larson states that in order to make her international flight the petitioner is required to fly from power to chicago", "the commission notes the petitioner chose to live in colorado nevertheless united approved this arrangement reimbursed the majority of her monthly parking as a matter of course supplied petitioner with bond limited flight passes this from what case are getting this is a piece i tried", "i mean i haven't unfortunately was", "there's no precedential value that that doesn't bear in anything", "what was the commission in ninety in two thousand and three you know what happened if you would cite that in your brief and we ignore it we have to ignore it", "we're legally required to ignore that decision", "how if you were to find her not to be a traveling employee at the time how does she not qualify under the community exception standard i'm not saying that she she isn't traveling to play at the time but she's not traveling to play how does it she job is that you fall under the community and exception that says that generally a commute to and from work isn't considered to be compensable provides for your means to and from work", "your employer provides for your parking", "your employer provides for your plane fare to and from new york city though they look at the kids", "so that's that's an exception", "in the record to suggest that the only way from her residence to tell you there is by fine precisely no mean it's it's the only practical way that she could get there", "the question is if it's not there is no evidence that this is the only way that united is not providing her way to get there she's deciding to avail herself of united she can drive there if you want you know", "eighty of their new based flight attendants to commute to and from work from different some different areas of the country why did they do that there's nothing about this case", "we're going to take it out of the general rule that a commute to start your workday is not compensable period i mean there's a there's a whole bunch of cases that say otherwise judge we'll call", "her attention i'd like to hear what that is", "either one curtis", "so a traveling employee travel an employee has an analysis which is on your right which is three prong", "that's not the analysis that they use in leona newburg", "they use and analysis that they say this person isn't a traveling employee and by the way they don't they don't deviate from the community and exception standard that'd be you know that this is a person that had lived there in newburg for i think the testimony was three or four months as compared to my client that lived there for sixteen years that united knew about that united act", "and we asked to that united provided", "can we turn him into a feminine point unless they're engaged in some kind of employment related duties or activities she's not until she gets to jfk", "he's not being compensated by united", "when she's flying to colorado are they paying her to fly from colorado to new york are they paying her to do that", "different are the travel are they paying them for ten o'clock well that's the answer go how's it different mlr so the these two couples clean homes and they clean a home and then they go home for lunch together and they're having lunch together and they get a call that they're supposed to go get another job they're not being paid during this time", "oh by the way warm up their car", "just like sarah finds that the case i argued in front of your honor they're not sarah wasn't trailing at the time sarah was going out to one of her car as was the melissa", "she leaves the house he is engaging in workrelated activities because she's going to take the next cleaning job as directly okay", "your claimant in this case was merely going to begin the workday", "okay think the law is differently judged", "so i disagree with you on that", "you may find out what i can say", "i respectfully disagree with you on that", "i mean i i i certainly laid out the law and there's been a number of cases concerning this which the commission notes that that there's been a number of"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.illappct.1-15-1693WC/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-15-1693WC/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-15-1693WC_DOT_2016-01-27_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-15-1693WC/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-15-1693WC/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-15-1693WC_DOT_2016-01-27_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-15-1693WC/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-15-1693WC/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-15-1693WC_DOT_2016-01-27_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-14-0378.2018-06-06.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-14-0378", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-14-0378.2018-06-06.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [4955, 1424, 833, 3323, 3820, 4880, 1660, 5750, 2130, 1810, 3030, 8280, 833, 4707, 6310, 4570, 9320, 2520, 5330, 12760, 6540, 3980, 1670, 5050, 3520, 5440, 12310, 5990, 11453, 5250, 5820, 6800, 13530, 9630, 7680, 6240, 5810, 5820, 5720, 2580, 2870, 9560, 3420, 1980, 5170, 7880, 15830, 7800, 1050, 12173, 22752, 11932, 4691, 3440, 3790, 4170, 2410, 3350, 1360, 1660, 4810, 3140, 2660, 2810, 1180, 13193, 6690, 833, 11270, 2540, 5423, 2626, 4970, 4190, 833, 8116, 10970, 7670, 4230, 5140, 7170, 6100, 1702, 1150, 17721, 2083, 1666, 833, 6998, 1047, 833, 18180, 4540, 6390, 3760, 7700, 5800, 6133, 8440, 11026, 9424, 12783, 24390, 5890, 24450, 7443, 3640, 3473, 4860, 1193, 8400, 8270, 4373, 15380, 4130, 7070, 8360, 4953, 13180, 6920, 7350, 980, 11790, 1040, 15823, 17140, 23235, 6995, 7910, 6780, 4120, 2820, 2410, 2760, 7100, 9230, 5720, 1610, 2770, 2063, 4374, 2393, 6030, 3410, 3793, 6533, 3910, 5860, 12780, 2650, 5610, 2853, 3120, 890, 1170, 2760, 3640, 833], "label": ["the next case call for argument is people vs barnes", "good afternoon", "good afternoon", "may i please court the counsel my name is alexandra munches", "i'm with the office of the state of health defender and i represent dunfield barnes", "at the age of seventeen dunfield barnes robbed his neighborhood gas station in murphysboro illinois", "he carried an unloaded revolver", "when the clerk opened the register he placed this revolver on the counter before the clerk and emptied the cash train to a backpack", "he then picked up the revolver and left", "this robbery lasted between one and two minutes", "and the police arrested him a few minutes after that", "dunfield ultimately received a twenty two year sentence which is the sum of a seven year classic sentence and a fifteen year automatic firearm add on", "he appealed", "and during the pendency of his appeal section five hundred and forty five thousand one hundred and five became effective", "the statute grants trial court's discretion to declined to impose otherwise applicable firearm add ons to juveniles", "this appeal concerns the constitutional effect of this law on dunfield trial sentence", "more specifically dunfield argues that following the napping of the statute the automatic imposition of a firearm add on violated the proportion of penalties clause as applied to him", "now violation of the proportion of penalties clause occurs", "the punishment is so wholly disproportionate to the offenses to shock the moral sense of the community", "this is essentially a value judgment or moral question that requires a support to review the gravity of the offense in connection with the severity of the statutorily mandated sentence and all within rpds evolving standard of decency", "so then misses court looks at are the facts of the case statutory text in this court's judgment is that a court's own judgment that is", "the key really to this test is the evolving standard of decency", "courts have never defined that", "the only supreme court says as our society evolves so the two direct concepts of elemental decency", "in fairness which shaped the moral sense of the community", "now this appeal presents a swimmingly novel argument about the evolving standard of decency in illinois", "specific read on shall argue said if you've announced sentencing statute incorporating illinois own understanding of miller graham roper and others should also inform this court's understanding of our evolving standard of decency", "that is even if it becomes effective during the pendency of a direct appeal and untrue sites kentucky good", "if if he can talk to you about opposition it's a case in which the us supreme court will go to federal courts and state courts that violates basic norms of constitutional adjudication to deny equal treatment across cases", "to see why this court should look to the text of section five hundred and forty five thousand one hundred and five", "now this particular subsection b abolish the automatic application of firearm enhancements to juveniles", "and in doing so it rejected any former theological justification for automatically punishing children like adults", "now one other thing that this section has done do you think this is similar to the sentencing statutes that are are being amended today where you can't mandatorily sentence a juvenile to live a life", "you think that this is hard with that evolving public housing i think so your honor i think this court will see and people be hunter and people would be home in the illness of importance", "the most recent decision sincerely drew off that the general assembly is actively trying to incorporate this area of the law into juvenile sentencing", "and that's how i mistake as illness import is finally saying only leads the nation in juvenile justice issues", "and what's i think particularly remarkable that the statute is that actually leaves room open for this court's discretion", "so if you look at that sub section b people be hunter noted that it's intentionally silent regarding retro activity", "so the only supreme court had to look to the statute on statutes to decide well should subsection a apply retroactively or not", "and what they said was well it sort of depends", "so there's no retroactive application", "if you're analyzing under the mitigation portion of the statute statutes however retroactive of applications okay if you cannot elect score it i haven't tried it", "so it's like if the juvenile elects score for it at a retrial", "it says actually the statute is actually serving bill one", "and i think that this court should take that as a signal that the legislature is looking to work with the court", "that it's a joint enterprise between the courts and the legislature in the state that we are fond of saying leads the nation on juvenile justice issues", "are you basically asking for a vacation with the sentence and remand for re sentencing oh you mean for re sentencings what we're asking for is exceedingly to have mainly a new sentencing hearing at which the child court may exercise its discretion simply exercise discretion", "i think under the resentencing statue there would be a cap of twenty two years unless dunfield has done something bad in prison since then", "but yeah it's just a recap", "the cap between six and twenty two which the trial court may either impose twenty two just under the class x portion or declined to impose the fifteen add on and say it's just the second but somewhere between six and twenty two at a re sentencing hearing", "if we were to give you a hypothetical if we were to vacate and remap and on remand with the circuit court in its discretion decided that the hands but for the use of a firearm was appropriate and sentenced accordingly would that be an abuse of discretion it would not", "the issue in this particular appeal is the interplay between our evolving center and decency in the sort of stripping of the child court's discretion when that's the first time i've seen her hearing correct correct", "and so we're simply asking for a new sentencing hearing in which the child court may exercise its discretion", "in illinois we've long held that age is not just a chronological fact", "it's a multifaceted set of attributes security constitutional significance", "the facts of this case and argue call out from recent scene under this new statute", "although the offense dunflied committed was a serious one", "the circumstances of the case undercut the general severity of the conduct", "he used an unloaded gun", "he had no prior criminal history", "he has a supportive family network at seventeen he expressed remote remorse", "in allocation he apologized he empathized with the gas station clerk", "he explained that he learned from his mistakes", "dunfield also asked to be placed in drug and alcohol treatment", "so", "i mean those are not the factors that we're considering this appeal right correct what we're saying simply is that at re sentencing there's a real possibility that the court will exercise its discretion a way that will positively affect dunfield's life", "dunfield does not argue that as a matter of constitutional law the child court may not impose the firearm firearm enhancement to re sentencing", "that is not his argument", "now dunfield argues that given the circumstances of the offense his personal characteristics there's a real possibility the trial court will resentence him less virtually if not bound by this former sentencing statute", "respectfully nigel asked this query mandatory sentencing", "the trial court may exercise that discretion may otherwise find him post a firearm incident", "what's the six to twenty two years that was discretionary", "wasn't it the seven years was discretionary and the fifteen was automatic", "and i think that under the rate presentencing statute by the cap would be at twenty two", "right", "but so i i'm not clear why we would vacate the entire sentence as opposed to just the automatic imposed sentence", "on what basis would we vacate the entire sentence well i think that the the record does not demonstrate definitively how the sentence was calculated", "in the sense that where the trial court had only imposed close to seven years and not impose the fifteen or did he want did he think the fifteen was otherwise", "if he had his discretion that he could impose we think that there's an open questionnaire and", "so i see the open question on fifteen years because that was mandatory", "and you're following kind of that philosophy of well he should have had the trial court should have had some discretion", "but the six to twenty two years fam the trial court clearly did have discretion", "i think i think i think that's correct", "i think that we misspoke", "i think that you know there would be a good argument that the lower bound on these seven as opposed to six but that even with this bound you don't know whether or not the trial court would have exercised discretion to decline imposes firearm enhancement or would it have sort of you know shifted somewhere between the range of seven and thirty otherwise", "if there are no further questions i thank you", "no i don't think there are", "thank you", "counsel you've been around a lot lately", "hi", "yes i have your honor", "your honor counsel may appeal to court kelly stacey appearing for the safe in the defendant's reclined brief he acknowledges that even if this case would be remanded for re sentencing the trial court can still impose the fifteen year firearm enhancement", "the defendant points out that he apologized to the store clerk", "i agree that that did happen at the sentencing hearing that he has helped people at church", "and then he had no prior adjudications or convictions", "i also agree that he obtained his ged and has a supportive family life", "but don't you think that's probably why you got the seven years as opposed to the higher end of the sentencing", "i would have to agree with that assessment that that is probably why he got the seven years", "i go back to my last question which is the only thing that was mandatory here was that fifteen years extension because of the firearm", "and what do you think about the argument that because of his age his tender age which now we're recognizing you know there are issues to be concerned with", "what about that but the court should should be able to take that into consideration all those factors behind his back", "i think the hunter case that we've both addressed on the seven minute briefing has concluded that the statute does not apply retroactively", "so the only way i think that this gets reached by this court is if there is a finding that the sentence violates the proportion of penalties cards and that would need to would necessitate finding by this court that that the sentence is so cruel degrading or disproportion to the offense that the sentence shocks the moral sense of the community", "i agree with me to the statements that opposing counsel made on the evolving sense", "and i think it does apply to as justice case mentioned the miller case how we're viewing younger offenders and when does the brain stop wiring and when do they have those adults the adult ability to be able to determine the consequences of their action", "but in this case in looking at the seriousness of the offense what we have is the defendant pointed a weapon at a store clerk", "he demanded money and told her he would shoot her", "he told her if she did not turn over the money she would be hurt", "he did have the wherewithal to conceal his identity during the armed robbery", "he wore a mask", "and although he argues that the gun was not loaded but there would be no way for a person on the other end of that gun to know whether or not it was loaded", "in her testimony was she believed this was a fully operational gun and wouldn't have had any reason to think it was not loaded", "she suffered severe anxiety and had panic attacks", "i understand the defendant's argument that he did this to obtain peer approval but there's also some information in the record that he had posed for photographs with the gun and maybe to try to post them on social media", "i don't fully understand that whole social media component", "it's something i've just got me to in the last year but i don't pose with the weapons", "but along those same lines this defendant acted alone in carrying out that that robbery", "it shows that there was planning on his part and not an impulsive act", "we agree that if this court does find that this particular sentence shocks the moral sense of the community that the case would go back to the trial court for re sentencing", "i think justice skates raises an interesting question as to where would the sentencing have to fall", "i know it would not be will be increased but i don't have a definite answer beyond that", "in any event", "if i have no further questions from the panel the state would ask you to find the sentence imposed was not unconstitutional as applied to this defendant defendant and affirm", "thank you your honor", "thank you council council any rebuttal so i think what's clear from this record and from the state's acknowledgements in this court's questions are dunfield's not an incorrigible youth", "no he is a typical young person who made a very bad decision but under the law of illinois for the youth the turns is not further because he was less likely to consider potential punishments and the goal incapacitation rehabilitation are negated cause he's not incorrigible", "all of these factors that you're talking to us about regard to this young man are we to consider those when we talk about the constitutional proportionality clause so i think what i mean it is a question of law that's before us certainly i consider this first state and sort of the brush clearing basically dunfield is definitely not an incorrigible youth", "i like that what does that mean just just the idea that you know to put it in really stark turns terms", "if under miller up graham roper children of all people should receive new sentencing hearings", "the facts of this crime are far less severe and do not demonstrate on the face of the record in court durability by any means", "but what about hunter that says that the statue is not retroactive", "so i thin hunter says it's it's a new one's talking", "so hunter says that section b is intentionally", "so i don't that's a quote intentionally silent on retroactivity", "and so that almost been court look to the statute on statutes and under the section of statutes what we found is that it was ambivalent on retro activity", "mainly if you analyze it under the mitigation line of cases no retroactive application however the section of statutes approves of the application of the statute following a retrial and re sentencing", "so i think what that tells us is that the general assembly is intentionally silent in subsection b they're signaling to this court", "this is a joint enterprise", "we have we've seen miller graham roper", "we know that our statutes have not got it done", "and we know that almost supreme court keeps finding as applied in facial challenges to the statutes", "and we are now opening this up to the court", "and under leon miller we know that this court is supposed to exercise its own judgment about the evolving standard of decency", "so i don't think that hunter forecloses this claim at all", "i think on the contrary it opens up room for this court's discretion", "so i think i just want to conclude by saying dunfield is asking for exceedingly narrow relief in two ways", "he wants a resentencing hearing at which the trial court may exercise its discretion", "and he's asking for a type of relief that is not going to open up the flood gates of litigation", "the types of cases that meet this requirement are where the defendant was less than eighteen where a firearm add on was at issue and where the direct appeal was pending on january 1st two thousand and sixteen", "these is a very narrow set of cases", "and dunfield asks that he simply get that resentencing hearing in which the trial court can exercise its discretion", "all in accord with illinois evolving standard of decency", "if there are no further questions i don't think there are", "thank you council", "thank you", "we appreciate the briefs and arguments with council", "we'll take the case under advisement and issue a ruling in due course", "thank you"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.illappct.5-14-0378/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-14-0378/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-14-0378_DOT_2018-06-06_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-15-0166.2018-05-03.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-15-0166", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-15-0166.2018-05-03.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [57427, 2380, 16860, 2008, 13037, 12898, 23160, 17790, 9795, 20114, 38509, 3576, 23921, 16125, 12710, 17208, 2013, 37899, 4863, 28348, 18709, 9122, 28912, 8268, 25290, 2482, 13802, 16277, 2453, 13800, 13761, 15048, 20896, 38925, 11393, 4412, 9910, 4535, 52455, 2630, 10030, 19970, 2520, 8730, 2557, 30881, 19585, 6022, 27866, 2308, 5000, 11811, 1846, 18620, 48985, 11351, 28104, 11513, 6007, 8766, 2959, 20997, 21330, 31263, 14070, 105970, 9376, 13794, 2922, 19286, 2912, 10883, 1245, 3028, 1600], "label": ["good morning your honors may it please the court my name is richard whitney representing the defendant appellant monte engelhart in this matter in this appeal i am asking this court to reverse mr engelharts conviction and remand this clause for new proceedings based on one issue the trial courts one sentence denied mrengelharts clear and unequivocal invocation of his sixth amendment right to represent himself without complying with rule four zero one without conducting any other inquiry and without any explanation the entire exchange occurring prior to the commencement of trial consisted of mr engelhart stating your honor i would like to represent myself and the court responding that will be denied", "under our sixth amendment jurisprudence", "the court's duty was to make a sufficient inquiry to determine whether mr engelart's request to represent himself was freely knowingly and intelligently made and if it was to grant that request", "since it oddly failed to do so", "and since there was no other basis in the record for finding that mr engelharts request was not freely knowingly and intelligently made the judgment conviction must be reversed", "counsel at what stage did the defendant make his request at the pretrial hearing on the day of trial but significantly and notably before the commencement of the four id", "and the reason your honor why that is important is because one of the two arguments that the state has made in this appeal for arguing that's one of the narrow limitations to the sixth amendment right of self representation applies was because it came too late because it came on the on the eve of trial", "however the very case cited and relied upon the state people be burdened by our illinois supreme court simply made the observation a number of courts have held vinnie defense request and time where it's made just before the commencement of trial", "however in the numerous cases that the burton court cited most of them were done by federal courts of appeal", "every single one of those cases held the dividing line between what just before means is if it occurs after the board years begun or after the jury is in panel mr engelharts requests came before the warrant even began", "and accordingly under the very the very cases cited by our supreme court and burden we find that the first third fourth fifth seventh ninth and 11th federal courts of appeal all held that the dividing line is either the commencement of our idea or the impaneling of scoring and of the jury in this case mr engelharts request came before any of that occurred and accordingly following the very authority that authorities that were indirectly cited in burden", "we have to find that this request was in fact timely", "now there is also another exception where the court cited one the third court cited illinois veld court case where the court held the dictor or stated in dicta that the defendant cannot wait until the eve of trial and holding for a continuance announced it is decided to rely upon his skills rather than counsels", "but notably in this case there was no request for continuance there was no indication implication insinuation or anything of the kind indicating that mr engelhart was doing this for purposes of trying to delay the trial", "and even if there was a suspicion that that might be the case all the court had to do was enquire or say well mr engelehart we'll talk about this but i'm telling you right now we're not going to do it", "this is for a continuance the court didn't do any of that there was no inquiry made there was no hint that this was for purposes of delay therefore blew off in the cases that you know that the whole that if it's an improper delay that might be a reason to to deny the request", "clearly doesn't apply here", "the court made no inquiry whatsoever just said that will be denied so accordingly we cannot the state cannot take refuge and regrets or other cases and it's a matter of fact in in our reply brief i believe i cited the first district case two thousand and sixteen cases of people b hunt where the the sister pell court held that a request to proceed pro se which is not accompanied by a request for additional time to prepare should generally be viewed as fondly as long as it may be for a trial", "and again this did occur before trial before the commencement of the ordeal", "the only other grounds that we stayed relies upon and trying to argue the one of the very narrow restrictions on the sixth amendment right to selfrepresentation might apply is the state of dance was an argument that mr engelhart had been disruptive throughout the pretrial proceedings and therefore it comes with an exception for obstructionist conduct", "however as the roots in case out of the fourth district cited by both parties what was clear about this is a very narrow exception and it only applies to a defendant who engages enquote serious and obstructionist misconduct unquote", "and as i went through the reply brief and looked at each of these incidents cited by the state we're not even remotely close to that here", "what we had in this case basically was a client who was annoyed and perplexed by his attorney and he did express that on on several occasions notably in in three of the occasions cited by the state the exchange between mr engelhart and court began with may i address the court please or on one case it was i would like to respectfully address the court", "how was that obstructionist conduct that does not even remotely come close to obstructionist misconduct", "the only thing that even remotely is in the same ballpark was one time at apretrial hearing he made a sarcastic comment that there was a kangaroo court going on that's it he didn't obstruct anything as a matter of fact if you look at the record of the trial itself he behaved himself admirably he did not interrupt the proceedings he didn't cause a fuss", "he didn't obstruct anything", "what we have here is a defendant irritated with his attorney he expressed it on a few occasions he did have a lot of questions to the court but he politely asked the court to try and explain things to him", "none of that rises to the level of serious and obstructionist misconduct which i studied a case in the out of the ninth federal circuit in the reply brief that what that's really referring to is uncontrollable and disruptive behavior in the courtroom", "again we don't we don't see that here", "and it's a matter of fact a lot of the exchanges between mrengelhart and his attorney were in the context of the attorney trying to withdraw from representing him", "clearly these two people did not get along and and it it culminated in the requests made by mr engelhart on one of the occasions cited by the state it was the attorney that interrupted mr engelhart", "in another occasion he actually corrected his attorney because she misstated the fact about his prior record these are the kinds of things that happened here it does not watch the level of serious and obstructionist misconduct", "on the supreme court and people the baez which i think is one of the the keystone cases here was very clear that once a clear and unequivocal request is made to represent himself and you can't get much more clear and unequivocal than your honor i would like to represent myself", "and if the decision is freely knowingly and intelligently made which the court here did not even ask but if it was then there was no reason to suppose otherwise here it must be accepted the three categories of a very narrow restrictions on that wide and none of them apply here the record shows that as we are reading the briefs accordingly on behalf of mr engelharti respectfully request that the judgment of conviction be reversed in this case remanded so that mr engelhart's sixth amendment right to represent himself will be respected thank you your honor", "thank you council can it please the court good morning your honorscouncil", "my name is erin wilson legler and i appear on behalf of the state", "the score should affirm defendant's conviction because his request to proceed pro se was untimely as it was made minutes before the start of our deere because the request was untimely", "it was within the trial court's discretion to grant or deny the request", "as per the pry brief defendant accuses the state of misrepresenting the supreme court's decision in people versus burden in burden the supreme court held and i quote from page twenty four of the opinionthe timing of the request is also significant a number of courts have held that a defendant's request is untimely whereas where it is made just before the commencement of trial after trial begins or after meaningful proceedings have begun once such proceedings have begun the trial judge has discretion to deny defendant's request to represent himself the supreme court went on to conclude that the defendant's request to proceed pro se there was not clear or unequivocal but it also noticed noted that the request was made untimely because it was made just prior to the defendants sentencing in that case", "prior to sentencing in that case", "council the opposing council said that all the cases lineup say the dividing lines for dear if you make the request prior to that then it was time", "your honor those cases are federal circuit court cases whereas we're bound by the direct language that our supreme court stated and our supreme court in burdens stated just before the commencement of trial that would obviously include the beginning of the proceeding in which for deere is to be conducted and that is exactly when mr", "englehart made his request in this case", "the parties had appeared in court to start for a year and before they brought the potential jurors in this exchange occurred", "and because excuse me", "it's the state's position that that particular timing falls directly within our supreme court's language just before the commencement of trial consequently the decision to grant or deny defendant's requests was a matter within the court's discretion and to that end prior two defendant's request to proceed pro se the state had informed the trial court that the defendant had a pattern of dispensing with attorney after attorney to delay court proceedings", "how many attorneys did he go through in this particular case he only had one but he also had another case proceeding in the trial court and it was in that case that the state was referring to the defendant's pattern of delaying proceedings by going between different attorneys", "defendant had also been unruly and uncooperative at various points throughout these proceedings", "but to be clear the state is not suggesting that the request to deny is validated by the obstructionist conduct exception that was noted in woodriff and woodson as the defendant has indicated instead to see is merely pointing out defendant's conduct to contextualize the trial courts the decision when it was exercising its discretion as it was faced with an untimely request to proceed pro se", "and so excuse me", "trial towards exercise discretion that did not employ", "your honor if the request to receive is untimely and the decision is therefore within the trial court's discretion the trial court is not under an obligation to conduct those inquiries", "i realized that", "when we review an exercise of discretion we have to read we necessity reviewed those factors in the background the underlying factors in the courts determining that it can exercise its discretion and then exercise", "so basically to rephrase what i've asked did the trial courts on inquiry as to the reasons or the ability or anything back in any way the actual size of discretion as far as the underlying basis on which we need to review no your honor it did not and that is because the request was untimely had their requests been timely the trial court would have been under an obligation to conduct those inquiries and determine whether the request was clear or unequivocal but because the request was untimely the trial court was not under an obligation to conduct those inquiries as illustrated by the facts in burten", "instead it was within the trial court's decision to look at the circumstances and understand the context and determine whether or not the request should be granted or denied", "and given the circumstances before the court at that time wherein he was aware that the defendant had this pattern in his other case and the defendant had been very uncooperative with his counsel and had interrupted the proceeding sometimes civilly sometimes not civilly with those circumstances before the trial court the trial court properly exercises this discretion and required counsel to continue representation", "therefore the request to deny was not an abusive discretion and if your honor's do not have further questions the state would respectfully ask that this court affirm defendant's conviction", "just briefly arrives three points one i fail to see any relevance to any prior pattern", "in another case of mr engelhart request allegedly requesting different attorneys", "that's not what he was requesting here yes", "it would have been a concern if if he had said yeah i want to discharge my attorney so that i can get another one thereby fomenting another delay but that was not the case here he said i don't want to represent myself and with no insinuation that he wanted any delay they were there ready for trial", "apparently he was ready for trial at least in the absence of any inquiry we can't assume otherwise secondly again the the illinois supreme court holding in burten was based on its conclusion that the defendant did not clearly and unequivocally invoke his right to represent himself completely different issue from what we have here", "there's no question that mr engelhart did that here so it was a bask in dicta where the supreme court maybe statement and again the focal is a number of courts have held that a defendant's request is untimely where discourse made just before the commencement of trial unquote and it was in that context that it cited all of these cases saying that just before means after warder", "so again the very source relied upon by the state does not support the conclusion of wants this court to draw it supports the conclusion that i'm asking this court to draw", "yes it wouldn't have been better if it had been made a few weeks before force but it was still timely under the very array of case law cited favorably by the illinois supreme court in burten for these additional reasons we respectfully ask that mr engelharts conviction be reversed thank you for the timing of this request before here daniel jury panel the legitimate apart court's consideration in the exercise discretion well i would say your honor given the importance and the magnitude of the sixth amendment right which as the court in the lego case all also by the illinois supreme court said if the decision is freely knowing and told you it made it must be accepted out of the respect for the individual which is the lifeblood of the law i would say that that it's at least implied by burten that if it comes before gardere it still has to be respected absent some other consideration that might you know give the court a reason to deny the request but since none of those other factors are present and since there was no request for a continuance or even a hint of that then if for these reasons i believe that it would have to come as an abuse of discretion to simply summarily deny particularly with no input", "and that's the other part of our argument here on this appeal is there is a duty under rule four zero one eight and make this inquiry which the court failed to do", "granted almost all the case law comes in cases in which the defendant was granted the right to represent himself and you know that had buyer's remorse so to speak and and so on", "it is a little unusual for us to involve it here", "but clearly if the court has a duty to inquire before accepting the request implicitly must have a corelative duty to make the or before denying the request unless there is some other reason why a serious instruction that's misconduct to denial", "again that's not that's not present here", "i would ask on the basis of the numerous federal authorities cited in burden that that this court find that the court abused its discretion in denying the request", "thank you your honor", "we appreciate briefs and arguments counseling", "take the case on her advisement"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.illappct.5-15-0166/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-15-0166/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-15-0166_DOT_2018-05-03_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-15-0166/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-15-0166/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-15-0166_DOT_2018-05-03_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-15-0166/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-15-0166/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-15-0166_DOT_2018-05-03_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-15-0166/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-15-0166/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-15-0166_DOT_2018-05-03_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-18-0533.2019-06-13.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-18-0533", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-18-0533.2019-06-13.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [3250, 2166, 1750, 1575, 6823, 4400, 7990, 4421, 3333, 2375, 1986, 7173, 3233, 7535, 6298, 9108, 4167, 5000, 9289, 5982, 5258, 4667, 9063, 4500, 5259, 12600, 5983, 12775, 11767, 7276, 16454, 6081, 19468, 10218, 5277, 3802, 7025, 19497, 20600, 11289, 20080, 4613, 1972, 11674, 833, 833, 5636, 9145, 4379, 9468, 7436, 8324, 9458, 1898, 2145, 4423, 5671, 8789, 4666, 7790, 15259, 6345, 11205, 10347, 5914, 4498, 11092, 8002, 20227, 7835, 4372, 15573, 6000, 10718, 3615, 4263, 7834, 1497, 3656, 6697, 16639, 8003, 4766, 5754, 17221, 4513, 3142, 3118, 4387, 10177, 13169, 2487, 1072, 34318, 10373, 5455, 5409, 3417, 5342, 5585, 12970, 19538, 7266, 6335, 6492, 12184, 7922, 10070, 12160, 19784, 4500, 9058, 2010, 9904, 7276, 5416, 6351, 8837, 13890, 11335, 10454, 14595, 8763, 4400, 3564, 12102, 6366, 10841, 2651, 8903, 8309, 12627, 3147, 13766, 5180, 6131, 12625, 6511, 2229, 1788, 25294, 3984, 37802, 14026, 6418, 1867, 2579, 1531, 6561], "label": ["this morning it's five million one hundred and eighty thousand five hundred and thirty three", "patsias versus american family insurance", "if parties are ready", "good morning your honor's", "william s daniel collinsville for the petitioner plaintiff appellant district jeffery patsias", "as justice barberas may recall from our edwardsville days", "i like to cut to the chase and get to the bottom line and save the court time with our oral arguments", "there are in our brief an appeal sixteen grounds to reverse", "i would like to focus on the main three", "one waiver by payment", "two estoppel by payment", "three waiver by american family insurance not over filing it's declaratory judgment action", "basic definition that you all are familiar with", "very briefly waiver involve the intentional relinquishment or abandonment of a known right", "amfam as we colloquially referred to american family insurance wisconsin", "amfam always knew of its right to file a dj action but it sat back on its right for over two years actually thirty months", "a dj action involves action not amfam's inaction", "to me the key is that payment a recognized form of waiver", "waiving any objection or dispute or defense or where the item actually being voluntarily and unconditionally paid", "amfam finally paid the may 18th two thousand and eighteen appraisal award on july nine two thousand and eighteen", "the bench trial i mean vexatious and unreasonable one hundred and fifty five remaining issues", "was held on july thirty one two thousand and eighteen which was after july nine two thousand and eighteen", "when amfam had waived its purported defenses and disputes over coverage by its voluntary unconditional payment", "five million one hundred and fifty six thousand four hundred and seventy one was the net appraisal award that was paid", "at certainly a substantial sum it's not deminimous in any way", "amfam i submit cannot any longer argue some or any bonafide defense after it waived it by paying the net appraisal award on july nine", "with amfam waving its reported bonafide dispute and coverage issue by its payment", "then and thereafter there was no need to later file the policy as a trial exhibit on july thirty one two thousand and eighteen because coverage had already been admitted by the july 9th payment of the appraisal award", "if five million one hundred and fifty six thousand four hundred and seventy one truly was not covered then amfam would not have paid it but it did pay it", "amfam waived its right to file the dj action by not filing it soon enough or in this case not ever filing it", "amfam's asserted defense merely an claim adjusters unilateral and selfserving the letter of correspondence never became an actually bonafide defense because it was never presented to a court for judicial term determination", "it's assertive defense never acquired the stature or status of a bonafide defense", "no insurance company is compelled or mandated to file a declaratory judgment action on each and every little coverage dispute but it is obligated to file one where coverage is contested and as in this case especially where the contested amount of loss is put into appraisal by litigation", "we had to compel amfam to name its appraiser but we went to court to get the appraisal umpire appointed by judge mcglynn", "on the facts i submit the long time chronology of this particular case", "some were really at several junctures along the way", "it became the duty and obligation of american family to file it's dj action on it's issue of noncoverage", "patsias has claim coverage for a while before july 9th payment amfam had unilaterally denied coverage but it never submitted it's issue to a neutral arbiter for a judicial determination of whether its dispute was bonafide or if there was coverage or not", "is this particular case i think clearly and aptly demonstrates on the record no insurance company especially amfam wisconsin should ever be allowed to be as vexatious and unreasonable with it's delays as we briefed exhaustively as americ amfam was in this patsias case", "therefore the trial court associate judge which missed the waiver by payment issue in her ruling it should be reversed on this appeal", "after july 9th when amfam finally paid the may eighteen appraisal award fifty thousand it was then barred or at least it stopped to raise waived policy provisions and it's defense of the vexatious and unreasonable delay claims against it", "i think that there's been detailed briefing by both sides", "i could submit more", "i don't need all my time in my view but of course delighted to answer any questions any of the justices may have and then i'll be back on rebuttal", "okay", "thank you", "you'll time on rebuttal as you said good thank you thank you your honor i appreciate it very much", "raymond thank you your honors", "may i please support my name is marcus raymond jury for american family", "i guess the drawback in benefit of going second is i get to know what's their respond to i too wil keep it brief", "if the waiver is the main argument that patsias wants to put forward i will address that first", "the key to all of this and patsias attorney mentioned it briefly is whether or not american family had a bonafide defense", "the case law is is consistent and cited in the briefing that as long as there's a bonafide defense regarding coverage there can be no vexatious damages", "i don't think there's a dispute on that", "i don't think there could be", "and in this case there was a bonafide defense", "it had been raised myriads of times before litigation during litigation", "the transcript and we'll show that it was raised the the pleadings at the trial court level also show that it was raised", "and so so patsias would have known that this was an issue", "the court the trial court judge juba katz also came to the conclusion that there was a bonafide defense in this case", "and so if i'm just saying there's a bonafide defense that may be one thing but in this case we have a a neutral learned wellreasoned opinion from a member of the bench saying that there wasn't fact that bonafide defense", "it it strikes me as logically difficult to come to a conclusion that there was no bonafide defense", "if a judge was convinced that there was it's not as she she had no stake in it it was just her opinion after reviewing the facts in the law", "that being said as long as there's a bonafide defense american family cannot be can not be on the hook for any vexatious damages", "if in fact the argument is that waiver eliminated the bonafide defense", "then the waiver occurred at the time of payment", "and as long as in the facts that are pled patsias believe led to a vexatious refusal in this case all happened before the payment", "it'd be difficult to argue that things after payment were vexatious because they got what they wanted", "so it it strikes me as logical difficult position for patsias to take while you have these defenses then you waived them and but all the things that happened that we think you did wrong before he waived them now you don't have the bonafide defense because in fact the bonafide defense wasn't back in existence", "almost i think patsias is admitting that there was a bonafide defense if there's a waiver", "because there had to have been something that had to have been waived", "aside from that this this case involves an abuse of discretion standard of review judge julie katz i don't think it could be said she shot from the hip on this", "the order that she wrote is six pages long twenty four paragraphs cited case law side of the record", "the the argument in the motion for a new trial you know was conducted it took several it was a ranking hearing", "she apines on the record why she ruled that she did", "this was a case that involved testimonial evidence", "she was in a position to see both mister patsias and ron cleveland who was the adjuster for american family", "who's mentioned in the record", "she's got to see both of their demeanor's in their testimony", "and she's afforded deference under the charter case that was cited by both sides and the briefs", "charter says the ultimate decision regarding sanctions under section one hundred and fifty five penalties is reviewed for an abuse of discretion and also stays the legislative intent was to invest this decision with the trial court", "she gave them enough reasons and wellreasoned legal opinion regarding why she ruled that she did", "though this this court can obviously take a look at that", "i think she has afforded discretion and it's difficult for this court to overrule what she came up with", "the patsias is is is never satisfactorily answered a question that was asked at the trial court level which was why didn't you or why didn't patsias is file a breach of contract claim at the beginning", "instead this this fire happened in two thousand and sixteen there was never a breach of contract claim", "or declaratory judgment action filed by patsias", "there isn't a reason why has could not have done so", "patsias is savvy enough to have made it to this court", "presumed patsias could have filed a breach of contract claim which is how this normally would have been resolved and it would have been resolved probably without an appearance here today", "correct me if i'm wrong but didn't patsias alleged suggest that is was the amfam's responsibility to file a dj action and that's because they didn't find that there was any ambiguity or any issue with the coverage", "that it their assertion your honor yes", "that not", "when was that brought to amfam's attention the first time i remember it your honor was during the arguments on this particular issue so then after the after the payment had already been made and the argument is is is based on korte or korte k o r t e is where that comes from and that case is not applicable here this is a property damage case between insured and insurer", "the korte case is a liability case in which the insured was trying to get coverage for a wrongful death action", "and in the korte court said well when that happens the insurer has three options", "they can file a dj action defend or defend under reservation of rights", "that case is totally not applicable here", "there is no legal jeopardy that patsias was faced in in this dispute", "there is no ticking gun of the answer or ticking time bomb of the answer being due", "it was a distinction that was picked up by judge katz as well it's it was i think cited in a way that wil not let your honor's see what that case was about by patsias", "the case law is that is before this court does not support any notion your honor that that american family has a duty to every time there is a contractual dispute between a insurer and insured to file a declaratory judgment action", "i imagine most people would not want to be called into court every time there was a dispute most of these things are worked out", "and if patsias felt strongly about this he could've filed a breach of contract claim", "i'm sure your honor's see more than a few of those up here between insured and a insurance company", "so that notion is just not supported under the law and whatsoever that american family had some super duty to file a declaratory judgment action in this case", "i said i'd be brief i don't want to make myself a liar so i will sit down and let your honor's have a brief period of questions for me", "thank you very much thank you your honor's daniel thank you justices", "every bottle american family suggests that the key is that is had a bonafide defense which was never presented in court of course", "one can not reach a bonafide defense without a dj action with a neutral arbiter a court on a even playing field finding that there was a bonafide defense not just an asserted defense but a bonafide defense it rises to that level we've quoted mariam and black in the brief", "in the oral arguments you just heard for the appellee", "i heard an acknowledgement that any vexatious and unreasonable acts and delays were before the payment on july nine", "i don't think that's tenable", "i don't think you can do everything they did in this case and then excuse yourself with a fig leaf of a alleged bonafide defense that was never brought to court", "and there were delays vexatious and unreasonable delays between july nine and july thirty one two thousand and eighteen", "not filing a declaratory judgment action continued to be vexatious and unreasonable", "there was no motion that they gave the appraisal award out of fear i take is the most important part", "american family as is in the record did not pay the appraisal umpire and patsias appraiser until monday july thirty two thousand and eighteen", "now five hundred and thirty nine thousand seven hundred and five mandates that payment where the award by the umpire matches the figure of the insured's appraiser", "or the that's in the statue american family in it's pleadings denied that it had any such responsibility contrary to illinois statue", "i submit that there's no difference in legal principles between the third party insurance case and a first party insurance case", "mister patsias has been hung out to dry in this case had to fix a burned house out of his own pocket you know from the briefs they paid three hundred and eighty thousand eight hundred and twenty but it cost over five million five hundred thousand by the appraisal work to make those repairs", "paying seven hundred and thirty five and leaving nine hundred and twenty five to your insured is vexatious and unreasonable", "we get the vexatious and unreasonable if the waived by their payment", "the question remains in my final remarks here", "my submission of what's the optimum method for this court reversing this associate judge trial court although a published opinion is always salutary", "a rule twenty three order seems to fit the bill better in this particular case and i'll suggest why", "the waiver by payment issue in this case as i see it is too simple too straight forward too easy for these facts to be a testing hypothetical on the illinois bar exam", "waiver by payment it's a popped fly", "this case was also in my view too easy for a law school curriculum class on insurance policy contracts it's too clear waiver by payment", "this case might be instructive in a college university basic prelaw class waiver by payment as an introductory principle", "when you pay without a release without a dj action without a reservation of right you waive the entire defense if you haven't really had a bonafide defense in the first place", "amfam waived it's defense by two things", "one paying the claim and two not filing it's dj action or after we went to court to get the umpire appointed to get amfam compelled to name it's appraiser", "amfam did not counterclaim in litigation my client had to bring", "so the dj action absence and the payment especially waives there defense", "i think that waiver by payment by american family on july nine two thousand and eighteen there would not be a significant presidential value to this case to be a published opinion that's entirely up to you", "i think a rule twenty three order may be the best method but either way we respectfully submit to the court", "thank you i do have a couple of questions", "yes your honor", "first under your theory the sole burden is on the defendant to file a dj action correct in this particular case with this procedural posture with us having gone to court first for the umpire and the appraiser for them too assert a coverage offense it's too late they did not", "they sat back on their rights so if not waivers stopholders really clear", "okay the other question i have is once you have the payment on the claim after going through arbiter and all those things that issue gets resolved but then you go to a trail and the trail judge hears this claim of the vexatious and unreasonable aren't those essentially two different issues and you had a trail on the second issue and the trail judge found in the defenses favor correct well the problem with that is that the trail court disclaimed any coverage dispute issue being decided that day", "the only issue was the one hundred and fifty five penalty attorney fee and prejudgment interest but for the court to say there was a bonafide defense she had to actually decide the declaratory judgment coverage question", "there's no separation there and that's where her honor ran a foul of established law of waiver", "okay thank you", "certainly all right thank you very much", "thank you justices", "thank you both for your arguments court will take the matter under consideration and issue a ruling in due course"], 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3253, 6053, 6197, 910, 2850, 1490, 4430, 1260, 2643, 5190, 6770, 2300, 17280, 10770, 4450, 9343, 7587, 9260, 3420, 10390, 13270, 1500, 13680, 2410, 11470, 917, 30893, 21430, 13220, 9410, 7460, 1520, 10380, 6690, 25720, 4631, 5242, 7592, 6445, 2100, 1029, 3901, 1364, 6926, 1246], "label": ["on the first case five million one hundred and ninety thousand one hundred and four peoples national bank versus darnell", "good morning", "morning", "please the court and council my name is eric terlizzi i practice in salem", "i represent the defendant appellant bobby darnell jr here", "the plaintiff received a nearly quarter million dollar judgment against my client based on a count on a guarantee of a note to a mr thorson", "the bank loaned this money to mr thorson to buy an appliance store", "and unfortunately we're here because that loan went south in a few years", "obviously if it had been paid nobody would be here but it did not", "so the bank proceeded on count one to foreclose the mortgage it had taken on the business property and then count two on the guarantee that mr darnell signed", "the evidence is absolutely undisputed that on may 18th two thousand and twelve when the principal loan was made to mr thorson what the bank had in its file with respect to this guarantee was exhibit d to the complaint plaintiff's trial exhibit one this", "one page page five of five of this purported guarantee that has two paragraphs in it", "the evidence is also very open as to whether mr darnell even in fact had anything besides this page five of five", "mr baer the president of the bank there's some testimony oh we would have sent him the whole guarantee but that's the extent of the testimony", "there's no cover letter", "there's no anything else showing that mr darnell when he signed and faxed back actually the day before this loan was made this page five of five of this purported guarantee had anything else besides that", "mr terlizzi your client doesn't dispute signing this document he doesn't dispute that that's his signature", "you're correct your honor", "and is there any testimony that indicates he didn't know what was in the guarantee as the bank said they sent it to him i think there's substantial testimony", "mr darnell testified that he understood through discussions and the only actual personal discussions had occurred in february months before this loan and before any of the terms were really known or understood at all or whether this loan was even gonna be made", "but mr darnell testified for example he thought he was guaranteeing the building what the building appraised for one hundred and sixty to one hundred and seventy thousand", "they guarantee ended up being for three hundred and ten thousand which would have included the inventory operating capital and so on", "if that's but wasn't there testimony that the bank sent mr darnell the full packet that included the guarantee and that the wife faxed back the page with his signature the actual testimony your honor mr baer mr darnell's testimony is i don't remember", "i'm not denying that's my signature but i don't really remember what we got what i signed but that's my signature it's not a forgery case so he doesn't dispute that he might have gotten the full packet he might have and right and mr baer's testimony is well it would've been our practice to send it to him but again there was no cover letter saying which obviously should have been in the bank's file mr darnell here's the loan package", "this is what you're guaranteeing", "please sign page five of the guarantee and return all five pages in fact as we found out at trial but not before trial a month later the bank insisted on getting a full five page fully originally signed guarantee", "and that came into evidence as i think it was dated june 20th", "now the bank didn't sue on that", "in fact we didn't even know about that until trial because obviously a guarantee executed after the loan was made requires additional consideration", "the horse is already out of the barn the money's already been lent", "so they knew they couldn't sue on that", "they also that was more of a formality that wasn't a requirement that the bank that's what mr baer said yeah", "we just wanted to cross our t's and dot our i's", "and so right but mr darnell didn't dispute that did he the formality issue he didn't say that sign it", "yeah there is the part after the guarantee after the faxed page that you have", "the june one the june one let's call it the june guarantee or packet the june guarantee right", "that was more of a formality as you say dot your i's cross your t's", "there was no requirement that the bank do that", "well i don't know", "i mean if this is all i had in my loan file your honor and that's undisputed in this record that's more than crossing t's or dotting i's or formalities", "i mean i've represented a bank for forty years", "and if this was what i had to say that i've got a loan guarantee and that part is undisputed", "we've cited the testimony of mr baer at page twenty five twenty six of the transcript where he says yeah that's what we had when we made the loan and why that's particularly significant too is we have to remember that a guarantee is just is a contract like any other contract", "and what's the first day of contracts one hundred and one teach you a contract is a meeting of the minds which means you have to have agreed on the essential terms of what this contract is", "this gives a number of terms even if in fact he had the other four pages which we don't really know from this record but if he did have all it says is the principal amount three hundred and ten thousand", "now when you go into a bank or a finance company or a car dealer to get a loan what is the first question you ask what rate will you give me if that's not an essential term of a loan what is we don't know assuming that he had this entire guarantee on may 17th when he signed it and faxed it back we don't know what the interest rate was we don't know whether it was fixed or variable we don't know if it had a balloon payment absolutely nothing about it", "now if that's not an essential term and why that's so important is because that's the contract", "that's as important as the loan contract", "and maybe to illustrate that suppose we switched things around and a bank gave a loan a written loan commitment for three hundred and ten thousand and that's all it said", "and then the bank reneged on that and the customer sued for specific performance saying i want my loan you know i think the judge would laugh the customer out of court saying i'm not here to make a contract for you", "i'm here to enforce contracts you've already made", "what am i supposed to do pick an interest rate amortization all these other terms on the loan just out of thin air and really the guarantee is no different", "there is this record is silent that on may 18th when this loan was made that mr darnell knew any of those essential terms of this purported loan", "and that's why there is case law that says i mean there's the clear case law that says if you execute a guarantee after the loan there has to be additional consideration", "and that's just common sense", "there's also the case law that we've cited that says if you execute a guarantee before the loan was made the essential terms of the proposed loan have to be clear and disclosed and you have to agree to it", "otherwise there's not a meeting of the minds", "there's not a contract", "and the bank did not sue on a estoppel cause and say oh we detrimentally relied on this page five of five when we made the loan that you were gonna come through and cross t's and dot i's and send that guarantee they sued on a contract count and this is the contract they sued on", "so it was the bank's burden of proof", "so is that exhibit d is that what you're saying is one page was exhibit d no exhibit d to the complaint is the full five pages", "right", "but it's crystal clear in the testimony from mr baer himself that page five is all the bank had when they made this loan", "so my question to you is how did the parties get beyond the four corners of exhibit d how did they get all this oral evidence in about the making of the terms the meeting of the minds i mean exhibit d which is a us small business loan right document would have been complete in and of itself", "well i mean that presupposes that exhibit d which doesn't contain all the essential terms of the loan they supposedly guarantee is a contract does represent a meeting of the minds", "as i said it doesn't disclose anything so you filed some kind of affirmative defense on behalf of your client we did and one of the affirmative defenses was fraud in the execution based on the allegation that he had been told one that he was only gonna be guaranteeing one hundred and seventy thousand the value of the building and two that he explicitly made it known that he had to be he's a tobacco farmer down in tennessee and he's got an operating loan that came up in three years", "and it's undisputed that that was discussed", "of course mr baer says oh you know if things are okay in three years we'll let you off and in fact the loan was not in default in that three years but the bank didn't let him off because he didn't have enough money in his account apparently his business account for that are you saying your client took action with the bank to try to get off the note after three years there were yeah", "the record's clear that there were phone conversations where he requested that", "now the but i'm still perplexed on how you got to all of that", "i mean clearly your client even in his affirmative defenses acknowledged that he intended to make some loan", "he acknowledged that he understood that he had agreed in theory to guarantee a loan", "actually your honor if you read the record that affirmative defense was dismissed", "the trial judge took that evidence in the form of an offer of proof", "which evidence the one about one hundred and seventy thousand and about getting off in two or three years yes", "and i haven't looked at the notice of appeal in a while", "was that also part of your appeal then is the inappropriate dismissal of the affirmative defense i don't know that that's referenced in the notice of appeal your honor", "i wouldn't want to tell you it is and then be wrong", "okay okay", "i just didn't see it in the facts of the case but i was perplexed as to how all of this oral evidence came in when the bank well i could tell you i'm sued over the contract just a really good lawyer but that's not the truth it came in as an offer of proof", "okay thank you", "you're welcome", "but", "i guess i don't need to beat a dead horse", "that is our position in this appeal in that whether i guess what is is a bank to do when you get into a situation like this and your clients as well it could have i don't remember what is the standard of review for us is it against the manifest weight of the evidence or is it de novo well i think it's really more a question of the law your honor on the issue of whether this guarantee even if he had all five pages when he signed and faxed it back if that is an enforceable contract or not", "well if he had all five pages what would be deficient about it what's deficient is it doesn't reflect a meeting of the minds as to what he's guaranteeing because it does not contain the essential terms of this proposed loan that didn't even exist on the date he signed this", "that's undisputed", "but it was anticipated", "okay so if you could break that up let's assume hypothetically that he had the five pages that the bank sued on correct", "which terms were absolutely missing from the five pages the interest rate whether it was fixed variable balloon amortization none of those terms were in this guarantee in the full five pages of the guarantee", "the only thing he knew was that the proposed loan was going to go to his buddy joel thorson and thorson appliance llc and that the principal assuming he had these five pages was gonna be three hundred and ten thousand", "that's it", "that's why i say if that was a loan commitment from the bank that would not be an enforceable contract against the bank because the court would have to supply the interest rate the amortization all those terms that are absolutely necessary", "you cannot say those are not probably the most necessary the most crucial elements of a loan contract", "so again i mean if you had a note that just said three hundred and ten thousand and didn't contain an interest rate an amortization rate now you know maybe you could enforce it as a quantum meruit matter that you lent three hundred and ten thousand and the guy didn't pay it back but the court could not supply and say all right i'll finish your contract for you", "i'll pick a fair interest rate a nice amortization maybe we should make it balloon after five years or make it a variable rate fixed to prime the court could not do that", "the court's not in the business of making contracts the court's of the business of enforcing contracts", "but let me ask you a question", "sure", "the form that is used for the guarantee i'm assuming it's called sba form one hundred and forty eight", "so that comes straight from the government", "apparently", "there's nothing in that document where it specifically lists what the interest rate is or things such as that it references the promissory note which would have all of that information included in it", "so are they not referring back to that well and that works if you've got everybody at the table sitting down when the loan is executed and you pass the documents around and it's executed contemporaneously the guarantor can leave with a copy of the note", "i mean there's no or if they had sent and they had provided at trial you know a cover letter to mr darnell saying enclosed is the proposed guarantee attached to it is exhibit a the proposed note containing all the terms then you've got a contract", "you've got a meeting of the minds", "you know even if it's sent back before the loan is actually given because he knows all the essential terms", "this record and again the plaintiff's burden of proof not ours to defend", "we didn't have to put on one word of evidence", "so i don't think i really think we should have been entitled to a directed verdict based on the fact that they failed to prove even if they sent all five pages that he had well he obviously didn't have any idea of those other essential terms of this loan", "so and this you know we're not talking about a one thousand loan to buy a washing machine", "we're talking about a three hundred and ten thousand loan that now some seven years later even after sale of the security for ninety thousand we're talking about a quarter million dollar judgment a judgment that could put this man out of business", "this is not small claims stuff", "and for the bank at trial not even to be able to produce anything anything a cover letter anything to show that he was specifically informed of and knew the essential terms of this loan and agreed to guarantee it before this loan was made", "and that was their burden of proof and they failed", "we know why they didn't sue on the june two thousand and twelve guarantee that is properly executed that is all five pages that was after the loan was made so those terms were known cause they couldn't sue on that cause there was no additional consideration", "and that's hornbook law that a guarantee made after the loan requires additional consideration", "could be forbearance could be whatever but and this loan was only a month old", "there's no allegation that it was in default or there was any forbearance or anything in june", "so it's a case that looks simple on first glance", "oh he signed he owes", "but that's a shallow reading of this evidence and the law in this case", "and it's the bank's you know the bank this didn't have to happen", "the bank could have said you know we insist on a guarantor on this loan mr thorson", "you have your guarantor there at closing get all the documents signed and again we wouldn't be here because he wouldn't have a defense then", "so unless there are other questions that's our argument your honor", "thank you", "thank you", "you'll have a few minutes mr terlizzi", "am i pronouncing that right you are yeah", "okay thank you", "all right mr hoffman good morning", "good morning", "i'm going to steal a glass of water real quick", "take your time sir", "good morning your honors may it please the court i'm trying to lose my voice this morning i apologize", "mr terlizzi your honors i am to start out going to take what mr terlizzi referred to as the shallow view of the case and indicate that really what case boils down to is that mr darnell signed this sba unconditional guarantee not once but twice in this case", "may 17th he faxed back his signature page after which bo baer testified to at trial he had sent him in the normal course of these dealings sent him the entire unconditional guarantee all five pages down to him at his address in tennessee", "he said that's the normal way he would have done it", "they had spoken on the phone previously", "they had met previously", "they had multiple phone conversations", "i think page twenty of the record proceedings notes that", "they also had an inperson meeting i believe back in february before the may closing", "mr hoffman let me ask you a question that kind of was raised by justice boie", "this guarantee where was promissory note was it attached was there an exhibit where it was offered there is not evidence in the record that it was attached to the guarantee", "no your honor there's no evidence there's not evidence of that that i can recall from the record typically if a document refers to the note which this one did this sba form wouldn't you expect to see the note attached and wouldn't we be out of all this trouble if the note were there i don't believe that was required your honor", "why not it was part of the contract", "well the guarantee itself the sba form which mo baer testified that is the government mandated for this type of a loan this type of loan guarantee form", "and the bank i believe he stated cannot deviate from that form", "it lays out who the parties are", "it lays out the amount of indebtedness that is being guaranteed", "i think here it was three hundred and six thousand if i'm not mistaken and lays out the additional terms of the guarantee", "so i don't believe there's any indication that it was required to attach the note as it is our position the guarantee laid out the necessary terms for mr darnell to review that document which he had two opportunities to do after it was sent down to him and he faxed back his signature page", "i would note he admitted that it was his signature that faxed signature", "he admitted that it was generated from his home phone number in tennessee", "mr baer testified as well that prior to this whenever mr darnell filled out the sba guarantee application he also faxed up that application with his signature on it from that same phone number", "and mr darnell i believe just for full statement of what was the testimony i believe he indicated he didn't recall faxing it up or he is not the one that faxed up the may 17th signature page but his wife may very well have done so", "however as a matter of housekeeping and i think as justice cates referred to as dotting the i's crossing the t's earlier bo baer testified that after he that it was not required in the bank's eyes to close the loan to have an original signature on hand for this guarantee but it would be preferable for housekeeping purposes to quote unquote clean up the file i think were mr baer's words to have an original signature", "so after he didn't receive one which was his understanding and i may be mistaken but i think in the record mr baer testified that it was on his understanding in talking to mr darnell ahead of sending him the guarantee in one of these phone conversations perhaps that he was under the impression he was gonna be getting it in the mail subsequently", "and it did not arrive", "there was reference to possibly it was lost in the mail", "that's bo baer's testimony", "so in order to dot the i's and cross the t's he sends it back down to tennessee testified at trial that it was the identical document short of the may seventeen signature it had a blank signature spot and date spot", "and he did receive that back", "so mr darnell had two opportunities to review this document showing the amount of indebtedness showing what he was guaranteeing and executed it both times", "so you believe the record is clear that mr darnell indicated that the guarantee he received in june was the same one that he received in may i don't believe he testified to that your honor", "right i didn't think so i think bo baer testified to that that he sent the identical guarantee down", "right but mr darnell correct", "has no recollection of that i believe that's accurate", "yes your honor okay", "but mr baer again when we look at the sba form it doesn't have an interest rate obviously", "it does state the name of the borrower the guarantor the lender the date of the transaction loan number principal amount all of that yes your honor", "and does not require the promissory note to be attached", "that's correct your honor", "and i would add in terms of opposing counsel's argument that the interest rate was an essential term to be included in the guarantee there is no authority under illinois law cited in their brief", "i have not found authority stating you got to have the interest rate in the guarantee for it to be legally valid", "the only reference made in the briefs is to the us i believe it's us versus fitzgerald case out of the seventh circuit which i would note as i noted in our brief is the seventh circuit applying indiana law specifically", "and they do indicate that interest rate is an essential term along with the amount of indebtedness but we don't have an illinois authority on that", "i don't think it's required", "and again as has been noted a few times here this was an official small business administration form", "does not provide a space for inserting the interest rate", "and bo baer testified at trial that he could not deviate from the requirements of that form", "so we believe that the may seventeen signed guarantee that signature page was valid and enforceable as the trial court found as it was executed before closing", "and it's our position that the june 20th signature was part of the same transaction", "again was a housekeeping matter", "we dispute we completely disagree with the notion that additional consideration was required for that june 20th guarantee or that we somehow couldn't sue under that june 20th guarantee because it was subsequent to the may 18th closing", "this is arising out of the same transaction", "this you have a clear layout in the testimony of mr baer of the sequence of events that led to that june 20th signature and the entire document i believe coming up in the mail and not just the signature page this time", "it's out of the same transaction", "granted it's a little more than a month later but it was to tie up any loose ends", "bo baer testified he was comfortable moving forward on may 18th with the closing", "if he would have needed an original signature on that guarantee ahead of the may 18th or at the may 18th closing when all he had in his hand was the faxed signature he wouldn't have closed the loan", "and we're talking about a government backed loan here for a substantial amount of money", "it's not something anybody's gonna play around with or cut corners on and that wasn't done here", "we do cite in reference to the june twenty signature being contemporaneous to the may eighteen closing we cite the lds case out of the appellate court which found similarly a guarantee executed several days later i think six days later in that instance because of the facts and circumstances in that case didn't require additional consideration", "it arose out of that same underlying transaction", "granted we had a larger number of days here but i think the testimony was clear at trial as to why that was", "they gave it some time to see if they got the original signatures in and sent it back out", "i'm still bothered a bit by the note and i'll tell you why", "i understand this was an sba form that could not be altered but the court in striking the affirmative defenses made a docket entry on june 15th two thousand and seventeen that indicates that the terms of the guarantee are the same as the note", "it refers the court is referring to a note", "and the bank i think filed a motion to strike these affirmative defenses", "and i'm looking for the note", "did you attach the note to the affirmative defenses i mean to your motion to strike i don't recall", "where did the court come up with this note well your honor this was a two count complaint filed", "count one was a foreclosure action where the note certainly would have been attached as an exhibit", "i don't recall off the top of my head without consulting page by page in the record of whether the note was attached as an exhibit to count two which was enforcement of the guarantee but it was part of the complaint under consideration by the court certainly", "through the foreclosure so the note was i'm sorry your honor through the foreclosure you're right", "it was that that's correct your honor", "yes but i do apologize", "i don't recall off the top of my head whether it was an exhibit or attached in those earlier pleadings regarding striking the affirmative defenses whether the note was attached or not", "but certainly but it seems the court looked at the note in making its decision to strike the affirmative defenses because it specifically references the note", "and yet both counsel indicate the note was not the subject of the trial", "that's correct your honor", "but i would again reiterate that the guarantee itself included the amount of indebtedness included whose obligation it was that mr darnell was providing a guarantee for and the bank to whom it was being made and the additional terms that applied", "and i would note in terms of the issue of the alleged fraud which the court struck that affirmative defense i did your honor asked a question of opposing counsel about the notice of appeal", "i do not see reference to the affirmative defense as being stricken in the notice of appeal just to answer your question on that if i may", "thank you", "but on the fraud issue i believe your honor justice cates had talked about going outside the four corners of that agreement", "and i would note that within the four corners of that agreement we certainly take the position that you do not under the law go outside the four corners", "this is a contract", "i agree with mr terlizzi on that", "this is a binding contract and contract law applies", "we don't go beyond the four corners", "and within those four corners is the statement in all caps oral statements not binding and then it continues in regular font guarantor may not use an oral statement to contradict or alter the written terms of the note or this guarantee or to raise a defense to this guarantee that was noted i believe by the trial court when it struck the affirmative defense and we believe it's a vital term of the guarantee mr darnell had at his disposal to review", "i would also note we've cited a couple of cases in our brief on this issue northern trust case and the rose case", "rose came out of this district i would add are instructive on the issue", "the courts in those cases held that an alleged oral promise is not binding to establish fraud where the guarantor had an opportunity to review the written agreement and did in fact sign it", "the northern trust court had a good quote and that cited the rose case when it stated a party cannot close his eyes to the contents of a document and then claim that the other party committed fraud merely because it followed this contract i think that's exactly what we have here", "we have this loan that to use mr terlizzi's words went south and which nobody and the bank included wants to see happen when you enter into these transactions", "but now the individual who backed up that loan with a guarantee an unconditional sba guarantee now wants to try to get out of that obligation and is you know making these arguments to do so", "there was and i would agree with the discussion earlier why did we even get into the fraud testimony at trial whenever that was stricken as an affirmative defense and for whatever reason and i think council's correct it came through an offer of proof but there was ample testimony there for the court to take into consideration and judge the credibility of the witnesses", "i think testimony on that issue came from mr baer from mr thorson the borrower in this loan and from mr darnell and his wife about a meeting with bo baer back in february ahead of the may closing and statements that were made", "and mr baer did state that he often in these types of transactions gets that question can i be released you know so many years after the closing of the loan and he indicated that he gives his standard canned answer that we can certainly consider that you can apply for it make that request", "if the loan is in good standing all obligations are met and if the business this is a business loan is showing a positive cashflow and in good standing then that can be considered", "and i believe bo baer testified and i think it's noted in our brief that he does not recall mr darnell ever making that request subsequently", "and we have", "what was the this loan was an old loan in other words it had been going on a period of time", "about five years your honor yes", "and what interested me is the fact that mr darnell testified that after three years he was supposed to be released", "it seems counterintuitive that if you want to be released from a guarantee you don't know the terms i mean if you're seeking to be released and now you claim you didn't have a contract i'm not sure how that squares up", "but i would certainly concur with that your honor and i would further state that i don't believe there's testimony that and i do not believe going from memory that mr darnell testified that he did ask to be released subsequently", "there was also testimony presented i would note that within the first two years of the loan the alleged promise here that they are alleging is to be released after two years because and the reason given is because his farm operating loan was coming due in three years i believe if i'm not mistaken", "and so here we had testimony at trial from the bank that and i believe from mr thorson as well that within the first two years of this loan you know after the two thousand and twelve loan was made within the first two years he hadn't met all his obligations because he hadn't paid the property taxes on the mortgaged property", "so already just kind of extrapolating out or going in the hypothetical if it would have been requested that mr darnell be released he probably wouldn't have been because the loan wasn't in good standing", "but that's essentially neither here nor there", "another point i would make on the fraud issue as we note in our brief is the illinois credits agreement act which lays out that a credit agreement has to be in writing all of its terms must be in writing and that the parties cannot seek to enforce oral verbal terms to modify a written credit agreement", "and we cite the bank one springfield versus rossetti case i believe out of the fourth district that applied that act specifically to a guarantee like we have here", "it indicated that do you really think we need to do that in this case i don't think you need to even get to that point", "i think you don't have to you certainly don't have to why would we go beyond i'm sorry your honor why would we get to that point well just simply as an alternative theory if we're not gonna go beyond the four corners of the agreement and get into the alleged promises made orally by the bank and if we don't adhere to the term that i quoted earlier oral statements are not binding then simply as an alternative theory then i think it's barred by statute even to go down that road", "but i certainly submit that we don't have to get that far", "so what do you think our standard of review is do you think that we would interpret this contract de novo or do we look at the court's orders against the manifest weight of the evidence well certainly i think we look at the court's order its verdict after hearing the evidence and it would be a manifest weight of evidence standard", "i think we note that in our brief", "i do do agree that issues of law are to be reviewed de novo but i don't think you get beyond that here on those issues", "i think the court heard the testimony about how the guarantee came about", "the court heard testimony about the court has the black and white terms of that guarantee", "the court on the other issue that hasn't been touched upon about the sale itself and the judgment amount the court certainly had ample testimony and we believe that that standard would apply to it as the court was the trier of fact in this case", "simply touching on the sale issue certainly we believe there was ample evidence shown at trial that it was a fair and reasonable sale a fair and reasonable price", "the bank it was a properly noticed sale", "none of the grounds by which a confirmation of a foreclosure sale would be denied under the mortgage foreclosure law are present here", "we don't have fraud in the sale", "terms were not unconscionable", "simply mr darnell asserts in this appeal that the price was too low so therefore the deficiency judgment that he owes is too high", "but the bank didn't simply throw a dart at the dart board pick a number out of the air", "it had an appraisal commissioned about two months before the sale by kleeman and mr kleeman provided testimony via evidence deposition at trial and went into great detail not only about this appraisal from two thousand and seventeen i think november two thousand and seventeen before the january two thousand and eighteen sale about the comparable sales he used which is the preferred approach and about even a two thousand and twelve appraisal that was commissioned back when this loan was first formed", "and wasn't mr darnell present at the sale he was and in fact your honor he was a bidder on the sale", "this wasn't your typical and i do bank work just like mr terlizzi noted and this wasn't your typical foreclosure sale at the courthouse lobby where the only one showing up is the bank or the bank's attorney making a bid and that's it", "we had another bidder and it was darnell himself", "and the bank opened its bidding at eighty five of the appraised price", "i think jason russell from the bank testified to that as he was the bidder on behalf of peoples bank", "and so i think that was seventy six thousand five hundred", "and at the appraisal price was go ahead and finish", "thank you your honor", "the appraised price was ninety thousand", "after mr darnell upped the bidding after the initial bid then the bank bid ninety thousand and bought the property for ninety thousand", "we believe the evidence at trial supports that", "we ask the court affirm", "thank you so much", "thank you", "mr terlizzi counsel said that the bank could have sued on the june two thousand and twelve full guarantee", "but woulda coulda shoulda doesn't work in court", "they did not sue on it", "they in fact we didn't even know about it until trial", "so they sued on the may you didn't know about the june document the june guarantee", "when your client signed it well yeah i mean i mean you may not have known i didn't know", "he should have known about it", "he didn't remember a whole lot if you read your transcript about this", "i mean he was helping out a buddy", "he signed apparently once where he was told to sign and i mean that's pretty good help", "he's apparently a good friend", "i mean to commit yourself to that", "but they didn't they sued and they didn't sue on a quantum meruit theory", "they didn't sue on estoppel theory that he had to be estopped because it was detrimental reliance", "they sued on a contract", "and so the question this court has to answer is is that may guarantee a contract was there a meeting of the minds of the essential terms of this contract and i don't think it's a good defense for the bank to say the sba made me do it", "i mean the sba form is an sba form that i think probably anticipated it's gonna be signed contemporaneous with the loan and this issue never arises", "but if it's signed beforehand i mean there's no law that i know of federal law", "you're not gonna go to federal prison if you add a thing on there see note attached as exhibit a that is intended to be signed because when you sign the guarantee before the note the note doesn't exist", "i mean maybe darnell change his mind not even show up and go somewhere else get a better interest rate or something", "so you know there had to you don't have a contract without a meeting of the mind of the essential terms", "and yes fitzgerald is decided under indiana law", "and yes neither one of us has found a precise illinois case that deals with does a presigned guarantee have to disclose the interest rate", "but boy we could cite you twenty or thirty or one hundred illinois cases that say a contract you have to have a meeting of the minds on the essential terms whether it's real estate contract a loan contract whatever", "in order to affirm this decision", "i think this court has to be prepared to say in its opinion and this is simply a matter of law not manifest weight or any interpretation of the facts has to say that an interest rate is not an essential term of a loan", "a court can supply that", "whether it's between the original debtor and creditor or whether it's a guarantor it's not important it's not essential and you don't have to agree on that to have an enforceable contract", "i think that would be astounding", "do you think that such a brightline rule is advisable in a contract case to say that every contract or every guarantee must have an interest rate set forth or there can't possibly be a meeting of the minds well how can you have a loan without an agreement on the interest rate a meeting of the minds isn't that an essential term of every loan contract but a meeting of the minds is somewhat subjective isn't it and you want us to impose an objective test", "well you but i don't think it's subjective in this case i mean any more than like on a real estate contract you have to have a meeting of the minds on the description and on the price when it's payable i mean those essential terms", "that's not coming up with any new surprising case law but every contract you have to the question i guess the question of law is what are the essential terms in each particular contract", "and i don't think how you could conceivably say with a straight face that an interest rate and an amortization is not an essential term of a loan contract", "i mean again isn't that the first question any potential borrower asks what are you gonna charge me i want to shop the rate", "i'm gonna see if i can get a better rate over here", "if you're going to charge me five maybe i can get four from but this note in paragraph nine i'm sorry this guarantee i want to be very careful", "in paragraph 9h evidently says oral statements not binding", "guarantor may not use an oral statement to contradict or alter the written terms of the note or this guarantee and then it goes on or to raise a defense it seems to me that when you sign something like that there's at least a presumption or whatever that you read the note but your honor that presupposes that what you signed is a valid and binding contract", "and let's suppose the name of gavel banging drowns out speech was blank", "i'm sorry the name of what let's suppose the principal amount was blank the debtor was blank and he'd still sign it", "i mean he would sign it that clause would still be in there but would that be a contract well i guess we'll find out on another day", "but thank you mr terlizzi and you have to go beyond the four corners to look at the note to know you have to", "i mean that guarantee doesn't speak for itself", "thank you", "so you're asking the court reverse yes your honor thank you", "thank you mr terlizzi", "okay this matter five million one hundred and ninety thousand one hundred and four will be taken under advisement", "thank you counsel for your arguments"], "name": 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