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美国国务院
发言人办公室
访谈
国务卿迈克尔· R·蓬佩奥接受福斯财经网「与玛莉亚共度早晨」(Mornings with Maria)的玛丽亚·巴蒂罗姆(Maria Bartiromo )访问
纽约州，纽约市
2019年2月21日
问：现在来到节目上的是美国国务卿迈克·蓬佩奥。国务卿先生，很荣幸邀请您来到这个节目。
蓬佩奥国务卿：玛丽亚，很荣幸来到这里。
问：非常感谢参加我们的节目。您是否能就正在与中国起草的所谓谅解备忘录进行到什么程度，给我们提供任何信息？
蓬佩奥国务卿：是的，上周团队在中国的谈判取得进展。他们目前正在华盛顿继续努力。我认为真正的进展，正如你所说，不仅仅是在贸易问题上，贸易很重要——也就是商品交易——但是也在知识产权保护、强制技术转让的问题上，而且重要的是，它们的贯彻执行。写在纸上是一回事，设有执行机制是另一回事。我知道我们的贸易团队正在努力工作，确保让美国人民得到这点。
问：这正是我想跟您谈的，因为我们报道许多贸易和关税问题。但是，南中国海军事化，中国用他们的船威胁他人——他们的军事扩展大于今天世界上的任何其他军方。我想在详细谈您上周的波兰之行以前，先请您就中国的举动对我们意味着什么作一个评估，因为它太重要了。
蓬佩奥国务卿：玛丽亚，感谢有这个机会。你看，中国在作为国际大国的各个方面都有咄咄逼人的举动。你刚刚提到他们的军事扩展，无疑是对南中国海的地理扩张。他们的技术，他们的武器系统比过去好得多。他们正在对导弹系统、太空技术进行重大投资——所有这些都可以让他们把实力投射到国界以外。
但是他们也在商业上采取掠夺性经济手法——扩大实力，利用廉价、低成本贷款和吸引其他国家达成最终将有损于那些国家人民交易的手段，发展影响力。而后我们也在政治看到这点。他们在全球各地大力试图影响其他国家，让人们对他们产生更大好感，尽管事实是，他们拿出的交易并非有利于与他们打交道的国家的人民。
问：是的。例如，我知道他们大举进入非洲，基本上就是对一些非洲国家说，我们将给你们建造电信基础设施。当然，这将让他们可以对这些基础设施进行暗中窥探和窃听。他们已经在欧洲这样做。我知道您对中国有着极好的了解，这是远从您担任众议院情报委员会委员的时候开始的，您是最早——您与德温·努涅斯（Devin Nunes）和其他等人——启动了对这样一些做法的调查。
您刚从欧洲返回。我们在您的欧洲之行后听到——我们对您的波兰之行要谈很多，因为它非常重要。但是我们昨天在《华尔街日报》所读到的以及许多报道都说，欧洲在抵制一种想法，即特朗普总统和你们政府希望禁止或者有可能停止，放慢使用华为的技术。这是您在欧洲看到的情形吗？
蓬佩奥国务卿：所以我们不仅是在上周华沙这个部长会议上花了时间，我们在会上取得了一些真正的成果，而是过去几个月来我们到世界各地去，为的是让所有人都获得同样的信息，让这些国家了解在他们的信息技术系统中使用华为技术所具有的风险。我们不能忘记，这些系统的设计是由——是与中国人民解放军一道直接进行的工作。它们在对这些国家和他们的系统，他们人民的安全，带来切实的风险。欧洲人非常注意他们的隐私。这项技术对隐私的威胁是非常、非常真实的。我们在向外分享这一信息，这是美国通过自己大规模网络所掌握的知识，要让各国理解这种风险。这很重要。我们认为当他们理解那种风险时，会作出良好的决定。
问：……我们大约两个月前请微软前总裁——史蒂夫·鲍尔默（Steve Ballmer）——来到这个节目，他说，中国90%的公司使用微软操作系统，只有1%付费。这使微软一年损失利润100亿美元。
蓬佩奥国务卿：是的，这种巨大规模的转移，这种过去几十年来发生的对美国财富，美国发明创造的非法转移，规模巨大。这是历史性的。特朗普政府决心予以抵制。我们从谈论我们现在说话正在华盛顿打造的贸易协议开始。用它们解决这个问题。
中国需要承认在发生这种问题，需要落实结构改变，从而防止其发生，而后需要有贯彻执行机制，让全世界都知道，这些情况不会再继续发生。
问： 最后，让我回到亚洲，因为下周是与北韩的峰会。……总统本周的一些评论，让我感到吃惊。 他说，听着，最近有些事，我对此不着急，峰会将会像上次一样，我们会有一些进展。 他在降低人们的期待吗？
蓬佩奥国务卿：不，我一点也不觉得他是在降低人们的期待。你要记得我们在这之前的状况。之前有导弹试验、有核武器试验。现在已经有一年多没有任何一个系统的试验了。美国人的遗骨得到归还。我的团队现在正在河内，两周前在平壤。我们正在取得实际的进展。而现在两位领导人——天啊，从现在开始大约一周后，27日和28日——即将在河内见面，我希望我们可以取得实际进展，希望金委员长将会开始履行他去年六月在新加坡的承诺，将他的国家去核化。
问：我的意思是，什么才是进展呢？我是说，你不期待他会立即去核化，对吧？因为我们除了知道一直没发射导弹，我们知道总统已经向前推进，你已经向前推进，但是没有任何去核化的宣布。
蓬佩奥国务卿：玛丽亚，我记得1989年我是一名年轻的军人，在东德边境巡逻。当时没人预料到围墙倒塌的那天。我希望世界在这件事上也会有这么一天，没人预期北韩采取这个行动。我们目前已经做的工作，已实施的经济制裁，总统带领的谈判——我希望有一天我们所有人醒来，会经历一个世界在1989年所经历的那种时刻。
问：最后一个问题，关于中国。这一切和针对中国的讨论有什么关系？
蓬佩奥国务卿：我们希望中国会继续扮演建设性的角色。他们一直很有帮助，我们十分赞赏。整个世界都一道向北韩施压。我们希望中国会继续这么做，在对美国人民和世界人民极其有益的事业中成为非常具有建设性的力量。

INTERVIEW
 
New York, New York
February 21, 2019
QUESTION:  Joining me right now is the Secretary of State of the United States, Mike Pompeo.  Mr. Secretary, it’s great to have you on the program.
SECRETARY POMPEO:  Maria, it’s great to be with you.
QUESTION:  Thank you so much for joining us.  Can you give us any info in terms of where we are with China on this so-called memorandum of understanding that’s being drafted?
SECRETARY POMPEO:  Yeah, so progress made last week when the teams were negotiating in China.  They’re now in Washington continuing to work. I think real progress, as you said, not just on the trade issues, which matter – that is, the goods exchange – but on intellectual property protection, forced technology transfer, and importantly, enforcement around those.  It’s one thing to write something on a piece of paper; it’s another thing to have enforcement mechanisms. And I know our trade team is hard at work making sure that the American people get that.
QUESTION:  And that’s really what I want to talk to you about, because we talk a lot about the trade and the tariffs issue.  But the militarizing of the South China Sea, the intimidation from the Chinese on people with their ships – they are expanding their military more than any other military in the world today.  I’d like you to assess what China does in terms of its behavior for us before I detail your trip to Poland last week, because it was so important.
SECRETARY POMPEO:  Well, Maria, thanks for this opportunity.  Look, the Chinese behavior is aggressive along every dimension of international power.  You just highlighted their military expansion, certainly geographic expansion into the South China Sea.  And their technology, their weapons systems are getter better. They’re investing heavily in missile systems, space technology – all of those things that can project power beyond their own country.
But they’re also commercially engaged in predatory economic practices – expanding power, building influence through using cheap money, low-cost loans, and hooking countries on deals that will ultimately be bad for the people of those countries.  And then we see this politically too. They are hard at work around the world trying to influence countries to think better of them in spite of the fact that often they show up with deals that aren’t good for the people of the countries with which they’re interacting.
QUESTION:  Yeah.  For example, I know that they’ve gone into Africa in a big way and basically said to a number of African countries we will build your telecom infrastructure.  And of course, that opens them up to spying or tapping into that infrastructure. They’ve also done that in Europe. I know you have an incredible amount of knowledge about China from your days back in the day when you were on the House Intel Committee, and you were the first – you along with Devin Nunes and others – to launch the investigation into some of the practices.
You’re just back from Europe.  And what we heard after your trip from Europe – there’s a lot to talk about your trip to Poland, because it was so important.  But what we read in the Journal yesterday and a lot of the reports was that Europe is pushing back on this idea that President Trump and your administration wants to ban or potentially stop, slow down, the use of Huawei technology.  Is that what you found in Europe?
SECRETARY POMPEO:  So we have spent time not just at this ministerial in Warsaw last week where we had some real successes, but over the past months we’ve been out around the world just making sure everybody had the same information, that countries understand the risk of putting this Huawei technology into their IT systems.  We can’t forget these systems were designed by – with the express work alongside the Chinese PLA, their military in China. They are creating a real risk for these countries and their systems, the security of their people. Europeans care deeply about their privacy. The risk to privacy from this technology is very, very real.  And we’re out sharing this information, the knowledge that America has gained through its vast network, and making sure countries understand the risk. That’s important. We think they’ll make good decisions when they understand that risk.
QUESTION:   We had the former president of Microsoft on this program a couple months ago – Steve Ballmer – and he said that 90 percent of the companies in China use the Microsoft operating system, one percent pay for it.  It cost Microsoft $10 billion a year in profit.
SECRETARY POMPEO:  Yeah, this enormous transfer, this unlawful transfer of American wealth, American innovation and creativity that’s taken place over the last decades, is enormous.  It’s historic. The Trump administration is determined to push back against it. We opened by talking about these trade agreements that are being worked on in Washington even as we speak.  They will attempt to address this.
The Chinese need to acknowledge that this is taking place, need to put structural changes in place to prevent it from taking place, and then there needs to be an enforcement mechanism so that the whole world can know that these things aren’t continuing to happen.
QUESTION:  Let me go back to Asia as we conclude, because you’ve got the North Korea summit next week.  The President will meet with President Xu – Xi, rather, pardon me. And some of the comments that the President has made this week was – I was taken aback.  He said look, a few things recently, I’m in no rush here, the summit will be like the last one, we’ll make some progress. Is he ratcheting down expectations?
SECRETARY POMPEO:  No, I don’t think he’s ratcheting down expectations at all.  You have to remember where we came into this. We came in when missiles were being tested, nuclear weapons were being tested.  We haven’t had tests of either of those types of systems for well over a year now. We’ve had the return of remains of Americans.  I have a team on the ground in Hanoi now. I had one in Pyongyang a couple weeks back. Real progress being made. And now the two leaders – goodness, a week or so from now, the 27th and 28th – will be together on the ground in Hanoi, and I hope we can make real progress, that Chairman Kim will begin to fulfill the commitment he made in June in Singapore of last year to denuclearize his own country.
QUESTION:  I mean, what would be – what would be progress?  I mean, you don’t expect that he’s going to denuclearize right away, right?  Because aside from – we know that there haven’t been any missiles, we know that the President has moved the ball forward, you have moved the ball forward, but no denuclearization announcement.
SECRETARY POMPEO:  Maria, I remember I was a young soldier patrolling the East German border in 1989.  No one anticipated that the wall would come down on the day that it came down. I am hopeful that the world gets a day like that here as well, where no one expects that North Korea will take this action.  I think the work that we’ve done, the economic sanctions that have been in place, the negotiations that President Trump has led – I hope one day we all wake up and we get a moment just like the one that the world had in 1989.
QUESTION:  And final question on China.  How does that fit into all of this with the talks on China?
SECRETARY POMPEO:  We hope the Chinese will continue to play a constructive role.  They have been helpful, and we appreciate that a great deal. The whole world has come together to put pressure on North Korea.  We hope the Chinese will continue to do that and be a very constructive force for what would be a great thing for the people of America and the people of the world.