Secretary Michael R. Pompeo With Hugh Hewitt of The Hugh Hewitt Show
美国国务院
发言人办公室
华盛顿哥伦比亚特区（Washington, D.C.）
2020年4月17日
 
国务卿迈克尔·蓬佩奥（Michael R. Pompeo）在休·休伊特节目（The Hugh Hewitt Show）中接受休·休伊特（Hugh Hewitt）采访
[摘译]
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国务卿蓬佩奥：……
我们现已安排约550个航班从110个国家撤回了65,000多人。这是一项很不容易的事，但是很高兴这些人能够回来与家人团圆。我们仍然还有一些同胞说他们也想——得到帮助回家。我们将努力使他们每一个人都能回家团圆，安全地回到这里，到他们想去的地方，安全地回到美国。
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问：今天上午，乔希·罗金（Josh Rogin）在《华盛顿邮报》（The Washington Post）就世界卫生组织（WHO）在中国的情况发文表示，问题不仅仅关系到中国，而且世界卫生组织也有独裁的问题。克劳蒂娅·罗塞特（Claudia Rosett）在她很精彩的专栏里写道，“世界卫生组织不论是出于无知，还是与之串通一气”——不论哪一种情况——都达到了目的——“都充分地反映了世界卫生组织欺骗性的声调，连续几个星期都在说新型冠状病毒对地球上的其他地区不构成威胁。”国务卿先生，其中有多少应该归咎于中华人民共和国的中国共产党，有多少应该归咎于世界卫生组织？
国务卿蓬佩奥：好的，在适当的时候我们会对责任进行分析。但是事情很明显——特朗普总统（President Trump）从参加竞选以来就谈到这些多边机构，例如世界卫生组织等。我们很高兴参与其中，但是只有在这些组织切实履行各自明文宣布的使命的条件下。
很明显，世界卫生组织并没有做到这一点。你看到他们发表各项声明——请注意他们拒绝宣布疫情，他们说中国共产党是透明的，但实际上世界卫生组织知道它并不透明。这些情况都直接违反了他们的各项使命。正是因为如此，总统要求我们停止向世界卫生组织供款，暂停供款，进行审议，考虑一下如何使用我们现在每年向该组织提供的约5亿美元款项，采取什么方式使用这笔款项，实际有效地制止疫情在世界各地爆发，并保障美国人民的安全。我们将进行审议，我们将对如何实现这个目标进行评估。坦白地说，世界卫生组织没有履行职责，不仅辜负了全世界，而且也辜负了中国人民。休。
问：我相信美国公众将支持为全球健康投入同等资金，只是不通过世卫组织，但是你们将对此作出审议。
让我把话题转到中国共产党。从个人层面而言，国务卿先生，不是作为国务卿，你相信中国共产党在过去三个月里就任何重大问题对我们说实话了吗？
国务卿蓬佩奥：我肯定有些事情他们向我们作出了准确的描述，但是现在相当清楚，中国共产党——对任何专制机制来说，其主要困难之一是，不能让信息自由流通。在此之前的几个星期里，休，你看到这点。他们决定驱逐美国记者，《华尔街日报》（The Wall Street Journal）的记者，《纽约时报》（The New York Times）的记者，《华盛顿邮报》的记者。你看到当医生举手说，嗨，我觉得我们有问题，我觉得我们可能有一种人传人的病毒，它在传播，而他们用高压和更糟糕的手段给予压制。
这些是专制政权的行为方式。这是这些政权的性质。其结果是，信息未能到达应有的地方，很多天和很多星期世界都不知道正在出现的情况，而对这样的病毒而言，最初的几个小时，几天和几周对阻止其传播最为关键。中国共产党未能恰当做到这点。
我还要说一点，休：我们今天仍然需要透明度。我们今天需要开诚布公。我们仍在这个过程中。我们仍然不知道病毒的确切来源和原发点。它将对流行病学家和专家帮助我们了解背景有重要意义。我们仍然需要那种开诚布公，我们敦促所有掌握与这个病毒有关信息和成套数据，并且正在努力研发疫苗或治疗方法的国家，在科学界广泛分享这一信息，以便世界能够阻止这场严重疫情的继续蔓延。我们在美国这里正在把握住情况，但是世界仍然面对极大风险，我们需要让科研人员得到每一项信息，包括来自中国共产党的信息。
问：昨天，在北京有一个很长的记者会。外交部发言人，他们的高级发言人，否定了美国新闻报道所说的武汉——病毒起源于武汉的一个实验室——他们否定了报道所说的违背核试验禁令进行了一次地下核试验。 你否定中国发言人对两项指责的否定吗？
国务卿蓬佩奥：我不想评论第二点，但就第一点来说，我们不知道对有关确切原发点的问题的答案。但我们确实知道这点：我们知道首次发现的地点是在距离武汉病毒研究所几英里之内。我们知道这个——该设施的历史，进行高端病毒研究的第一个生物安全4级（BSL-4）实验室，这在那里进行。我们知道当中国共产党开始评估在武汉市内要怎样做的时候，曾考虑过武汉病毒实验室是否是来源。
十分重要的是，我们知道他们一直不让国际科学家进入那个实验室评估那里发生了什么情况，正在发生什么情况，甚至，休，在我们现在说话时正在发生什么情况。甚至就在我们今天早上上节目的时候，我们仍然没有那个设施给予西方的准入，让我们能够对究竟是什么引发扩散到全世界以及它是如何开始的作出应有的评估。
这些是事实，这些是重要事实，中国共产党和世界卫生组织对世界有责任拿出事实，让事实得出合乎逻辑的结论，并找到这些答案，这些重要答案。这些不是政治。它事关科学与健康，我们需要追究到底。
问：国务卿先生，我不知道哈佛（Harvard）大学法学院都教授什么，但在密歇根（Michigan）大学法学院，他们教授给我的是，如果一名证人或一方就大事说谎，就不能相信他们所说的任何事情。根据这种理论，他们对一些重大事情说了谎。我不知道我是否会信任他们举办奥运会（Olympic Games），如果他们告诉我们这样做是安全的。你认为定于2022年在北京举办的奥运会是否应当改换？
国务卿蓬佩奥：我们将会看一看这个问题，但我们的确正着重于当下。不过，休，你确实要回到中国共产党承诺要做的其他事情。他们承诺说在香港会有一国两制，但却在那里扩大了他们的压制。他们承诺说在新疆西部发生的事情并非迫害穆斯林人口，在西部那里的维吾尔人。我们知道正在发生什么。这是一个人道主义灾难。习本人，在玫瑰园（Rose Garden）里承诺说他们不会武装南太平洋（South Pacific）各处的岛屿。他们已经这么做了；他们在那里部署了大量武器。
这是一个全世界都应确保我们关注他们所做的事而不是他们所说的话的国家。他们想成为一个大国。他们想加入文明国家共同体。要做到这些就必须开放。必须做到透明；必须说出事实真相。这是我们对中国共产党的期望，而它达不到这种期望的时候太多了。
问：那么全世界难道不应当协调一致地应对吗？国务卿先生，撤回奥运会，在我看来是对他们缺乏透明予以谴责的最明显的表现。有关计划中有类似内容吗？
国务卿蓬佩奥：我在过去三、四个星期里同全世界同仁——还有总统——进行了很多商谈。他昨天同7国集团（G7）所有国家通过话。存在有巨大的失望挫折感，不仅是在这件事上，而且在于一个看来有意不履行其国际义务的中国共产党所构成的日益严峻的挑战。我不知道这种应对确切而言将是什么。
问责的时刻将会到来，而且当我们这样做时，我们应当采取一种反映出这一系列问题的整个范围的方式——不仅仅是由于这场疫情流行而发生的事情，还有它所构成的全部一系列问题。总统已着手应对。他看到我们有不公平的——贸易关系。我们勤奋工作力争解决。这种挑战有很多方面，而且全世界——不仅仅是美国——应当以一种为美国人民带来[成效]的方式来应对。
问：国务卿先生，最后一个问题：《华盛顿邮报》于4月8日写了一篇有关网上针对亚裔和亚裔美国人的仇恨言论增多的报道。我知道你在国务院不容忍反华裔和反亚裔的言论，或是反华裔美国人或亚裔美国人的行为和言论。不过——你能为考虑到公众再重复一次吗，我们所说的是中国共产党，而不是中国？
国务卿蓬佩奥：回过头听一听我就在你今天上午的节目中所说的。这给中国人民造成的伤害之大与全世界任何人民一样。这是中国共产党。这是在中国国内的领导层未能提供一个可能以一种公平、开放及透明的方式应对这个问题的政府。最早被夺去生命的人、最早遭到封锁的人是湖北省武汉市的数百万民众。
这无关于中国人民。这无关于亚裔。这是关于一个未能做到其最基本的保证和承诺而且应当做到的政权。
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Secretary Michael R. Pompeo With Hugh Hewitt of The Hugh Hewitt Show
We’ve now brought home over 65,000 people from 110 countries, 550-some flights.  It’s been quite the exercise, but it’s been great to get these people home back to their families.  We still have folks who are raising their hand saying they want to – their assistance getting home, and we’re going to work to get each one of them back to their families, back here safely so that they can get to the place they need to be and get to safety here in the United States.
QUESTION:  Now, this morning in The Washington Post, Josh Rogin has written about the WHO in China, that it doesn’t have just a China problem, that the WHO has a dictator problem.  Claudia Rosett wrote in her wonderful column, quote, “Either the WHO was clueless, or complicit – neither scenario” – works well – “reflects well on the WHO’s deceptive drumbeat, for weeks, that this novel coronavirus was no threat to the rest of the planet.”  How much of this blame is the PRC’s CCP, the Communist Chinese Party, and how much of it is the WHO, Mr. Secretary?
SECRETARY POMPEO:  Well, we’ll parcel accountability when the time is right, but it is very clear – hey, and President Trump talked about these multilateral institutions, things like the World Health Organization, from the time he was running his campaign.  We’re happy to participate in it, but only if they deliver on their stated mission.
Clearly, the World Health Organization didn’t do that here.  You’ve seen the statements where they – look, they’ve refused to declare it a pandemic, they talked about the Chinese Communist Party being transparent, when in fact the WHO knew that it was not being transparent.  Those are the kind of things that run directly counter to their mission set.  It’s why the President has asked us to stop funding the WHO, to pause, to review, to figure out how we can take the roughly $500 million a year that we contribute today to that organization and use it in a way that’s actually effective of keeping pandemics from springing up all across the world and keeping the American people safe.  We’ll do that review and we’ll make an evaluation about how to achieve the outcomes that, frankly, the WHO failed to deliver not only for the world, but for the Chinese people too, Hugh.
QUESTION:  I believe that the American public will support spending the same amount of money on world health, just not through the WHO, but that you will review.
Let me turn to the CCP.  On a personal level, Mr. Secretary, not as Secretary of State, do you believe that the Communist Chinese Party has told us the truth on any significant issue in the last three months?
SECRETARY POMPEO:  Well, I’m sure there have been things they’ve accurately described to us, but it’s pretty clear at this point that the Chinese Communist Party’s – one of its central challenges in any institution that is authoritarian is the absence of the ability for information to flow freely.  You saw this, Hugh, in the weeks before this.  They decided to kick out U.S. journalists, journalists from The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, The Washington Post.  You saw what happened when doctors raised their hand and said hey, I think we have a problem, I think we potentially have a human-to-human virus and it’s spread, and they suppressed that by coercion and worse.
Those are the kind of things that authoritarian regimes do.  It’s the nature of those regimes.  And as a result of that, the information didn’t get to the right places, and so for days and weeks, the world didn’t know what was confronting it, and in a virus like this, those first hours and days and weeks are the most critical in stopping the spread.  And the Chinese Communist Party failed to do that properly.
I’ll say this too, Hugh:  We still need transparency today.  We need openness today.  We are still in the middle of this.  We still don’t know the precise source and origin spot of the virus.  That will turn out to be important for epidemiologists and experts to help us get to the back side of this.  We still need that kind of openness, and we urge every country that has information about the virus and data sets and is working on a vaccine or therapeutics to share that information broadly in the scientific community so the world can stop this pandemic from continuing to spread.  We’re getting on top of this here in the United States, but the world is still at enormous risk and we need to have every piece of information, including from the Chinese Communist Party, available for scientists and researchers.
QUESTION:  Yesterday, there was a long press conference in Beijing.  The foreign ministry spokesperson, their senior spokesperson, rejected American journalism’s stories that Wuhan –virus originated in a Wuhan lab – and they rejected the story that a underground nuclear test, in violation of the nuclear test ban, had occurred.  Do you reject the Chinese spokesperson’s rejection of both charges?
SECRETARY POMPEO:  I don’t want to comment on the second one, but with respect to the first one, we don’t know the answer to the question about the precise origination point.  But we do know this:  We know that the first sightings of this occurred within miles of the Wuhan Institute of Virology.  We know that this – the history of the facility, the first BSL-4 lab where there’s high-end virus research being conducted, took place at that site.  We know that the Chinese Communist Party, when it began to evaluate what to do inside of Wuhan, considered whether the WIV was, in fact, the place where this came from.
And most importantly, we know they’ve not permitted the world’s scientists to go into that laboratory to evaluate what took place there, what’s happening there, what’s happening there even as we speak, Hugh.  Even as we’re on the show this morning, we still have not had Western access to that facility so that we can properly evaluate what really has taken off all across the world and how that began.
Those are facts, those are important facts, and the Chinese Communist Party and the World Health Organization have a responsibility to the world to take those facts and take them to their logical conclusion and find out these answers, these important answers.  These aren’t political.  This is about science and health, and we need to get to the bottom of it.
QUESTION:  Mr. Secretary, I don’t know what they teach at Harvard law, but at Michigan law they taught me that if a witness or a party lies about big things, you don’t believe them on anything.  And on that theory, they’ve lied about some big things.  I don’t know that I would trust them to put on the Olympic Games if they told us it was safe to do it.  Do you think the Olympic Games scheduled for Beijing in 2022 ought to be moved?
SECRETARY POMPEO:  We’ll have to take a look at that, but we’re really focused on today.  But Hugh, you do have to go back to other things that the Chinese Communist Party has committed to.  They promised there would be one country, two systems in Hong Kong, and yet they have expanded their repression there.  They promised that what was going on in the west in Xinjiang wasn’t harming the Muslim population, the Uighurs there in the west.  We know what’s taking place.  It’s a humanitarian catastrophe.  Xi himself, in the Rose Garden, promised that they wouldn’t arm islands all across the South Pacific.  They’ve done that; they’ve put significant weaponry there.
This is a country that the whole world needs to ensure that we watch what they do and not what they say.  They want to be a great power.  They want to join the community of civilized nations.  To do that, you have to be open.  You have to be transparent; you have to tell the truth.  That’s our expectation of the Chinese Communist Party, and it has fallen short of that too often.
QUESTION:  Doesn’t the world, though, need to respond in a coherent way?  And taking back the Olympics is, to me, the most obvious display of condemnation of their lack of transparency, Mr. Secretary.  Are there things like that on the drawing board?
SECRETARY POMPEO:  So I’ve been in lots of conversations over the past, oh, three weeks or four weeks with colleagues all around the world – the President too.  He was on the call with all of the G7 nations yesterday.  There is enormous frustration, and not just with this incidence, but with the growing challenges presented by a Chinese Communist Party that appears intent on failing to live up to its international obligations.  I don’t know precisely what that response will be.
The time for accountability will come, and when we do that, we need to do it in a way that reflects the full scope of the problem set – not just what has occurred as a result of this pandemic, but the full problem set that it has presented.  The President took it on.  He saw that we had unfair – trade relationship.  We worked diligently to fix that.  There are many dimensions to this challenge, and the world, not just the United States, needs to confront them in a way that delivers for the American people.
QUESTION:  Last question, Mr. Secretary:  The Washington Post on April 8th wrote a story about the growth of online hate speech directed towards Asians and Asian Americans.  I know you do not put up with anti-Chinese, anti-Asian speech at the State Department or anti-Chinese American or anti-Asian American actions and speech.  But just – would you reiterate for the benefit of the public, this is the CCP we’re talking about, not China?
SECRETARY POMPEO:  Go back and listen to what I’ve said even on your show this morning.  The Chinese people have been harmed by this as much as any people all around the world.  This is the Chinese Communist Party.  This is the leadership there inside of China that has failed to deliver a government that could address this problem in a fair, open, and transparent way.  The first people who were killed, the first people who went into lockdown, were several million people in Wuhan, in Hubei Province.
This is not about the Chinese people.  This is not about Asians.  This is about a regime that has failed to deliver on its most basic promises and commitments and needs to do so.