Northern Times. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-01-06 00:00:00

ING. s held at e Mayor, he coin• Y painful Deputy )1( place ter from ouncil yo'u that out four ;ht, from since he hich had v to the ischarged ly mlled Ts of the ie felt at letter a ;ion, and city and duties of . It had Elia him ack had al. He perhaps, .ce of the ieve that t on were t of duty amentary ,wn upon ly rallied ade hint and un- Council, )ling hint the —result ) remove conded be offered he feared, cordially iments of id he wag upon, i.1:1 servant. ability or assiduous, ntion and obvionsll ial meet-; tined till ise on 01 of Sil.4 rd-streetil £135.-/ the Nei' ,nsequenee irvevoes' assistants he estate )perty for for work tolleit, 4-4 :Minis il l on, salari nee 185 1, In, salad , met, L to mee t requeste u the best and the s. it fop total CO ate. 011 that theO, and that. wing the ittee also hould b e de of tly; mmendeti tate north e lot, an' l i portion o' . 1 1 st spec') ;port, au t advailt3, 3arried. hesecond Pure hag a d y a g 'hick 0 rd been ~r, itaei it, he was satisfied it would not be done. Besides, so far as the piece of land now proposed to be sold was concerned., he did not see that it had anything to do with the plan, or was any part of it. If If the Corporation had never' seen that land, it would (lave been a good thing for the town of Liverpool. (Hear, hear.) If the Council had taken the money and paid off the bonds at the time, and cleared off all old debts, they would now have d' princely income coming in. They had committed a great error at that time, and he hoped they would not still proceed in the same direction. He thought the time had quite arrived when they sho u ld do something with it. H e objected e to their ke e pi ng a ll that land on their hands for years until the wild enthusiastic schemes which some gentlemen entertained had been tested. Mr. Stitt thought it must be extremely gratifying to the members of the Council, and still more to the_ ton and the public, to find that, after many years,during which the Newsham House estate had contributed such a miserable sum to the corporate funds, some steps were beino' taken to bring it into play. But lie thought the public would be more gratified if they could be assured that any arrangement being made would embrace the idea, which certainly was generally entertained, that some portion of the land would be used for public recreation. (Hear, hear.) If arrangements could be made,to accom plish this project he was satisfied that it would please the people of Liverpool much better than any disjointed •action. (Hear, hear.) He wished also to know under what restrictions it was proposed that the land should be sold. In Liverpool, let the suburbs be as beautiful as they could, let valuable property and gentlemen's houses be situated as they might, there seemed to be•no measures whatever taken to prevent the encroachmehts of the smallest and the vilest kind of property. They had now -an opportunity to set a different example, and he wished to know what were the restrictions to be placed upon the land now proposed to be sold, and what were the eleva tions to be erected upon it ? for on that would Featly depend the value of the proposal. He did not consider the proposal of a boulevard at all so chimerical as had been said ; and believing that, if the proposal of the Fivane Committee were now carried out, it would utterly frustrate that scheme, he should therefore support the amendment proposed by Mr. Earle Mr a assist; and t 4 u : was, P to 7oposed nearest. Alderman Parker thought it very singular that all Woeeedir 4 sed to b e but, ..1 the gentlemen who lived towards West Derby were raising their voices against this proposition. They were told that the smallest and the vilest 'houses might be erected upon it. He had no doubt that the land would be sold, partly at least, for cottages, for the accommodation of the poor. They were driving the poor out to the suburbs of the town, and they must get homes some where. He did not think *the terms "smallest and vilest," should be applied to the dwellings of the poor. Compared with the mansions which some gentlemen inhabited, they might be small and poor indeed, but II( did not think V ) them )roper to be applied Mr. Alderman Bennett was as anxious as any gentleman that this land should be turned to proper account, and if the motion of Mr. Earle were to postpone that result for several years, he should Xie inclined to agree with the proposal of the finance corn- mittee. But as was only proposed to postpone it for a few months, he hoped the Council would grant such a reasonable request. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Ryley supported Mr. Earle, and thought it highly desirable that the labours of the committee should have yard should be procured for the benefit o - 1 the people. ,(Hear, hear.) Mr. Picton said, if the plan now before them had entered into the subject sufficiently comprehensively, he should not have said one word against it ; but coming to it without knowing anything of the matter except what was now before the committee, he felt that there was a great want of information. (Hear, hear.) A large portion of the inhabitants were under the idea that it was the intention of the Council to lay out part of the estate as a public park, and if any steps were, taken which would either nearly or remotely tend to prevent that, it would give great dissatisfac tion. (Hear, hear.) He regretted very much that the Finance Committee should have brought forward the present proposal without arty consultation with the committee, which, under the presidency of Mr. Earle, was taking the subject of improvements into con sideration. It was recommended to sell the western por tion of the estates separately, but the lines of road on -other portions of the estate were ignored, because they, had not been sufficiently considered. The council could not tell how far the selling of this land might interfere -with the future laying out of the remainder -of the estate, in such a way as the council would approve, and which would be for the ,general benefit. Again, there was nothing said about -the laying out of that portion of the property now pro posed to be sold. No doubt, even if it were sold as a whole, any person buying such a large. portion of land would have to cut it up into minor porti6ns. Were the Council to have no control over it ? Was it to be sold without any restrictions ; and if not, what were the restrictions to be ? All this, he thought, the Council ought to know before coming to a conclusion. (Hear, hear.) The lines of road laid down upon the plan he thought very unsuitable. He should like to see something like the Regent's Park in London, laid out in graceful curves, amidst verdure -and gardens, not merely reclangidar roads, such as were laid down on the plan. In the absence of all this infor mation the Council were asked to sell a detached portion -of land, through which a certain proposed improvement was likely to ruu; and considering, that a park was wanted and expected, and that they lad no information as to the laying out of the rest of the land, he hoped the Council would not that day decide the destinies of the land as proposed by the finance committe. He hoped they would have a comprehensive scheme, so that their successors centuries hence might look back without shame and without re g ret to the manner in which the present Council had dealt with the land under their control. He therefore urged that the Council should wait until Mr. Earle's scheme had been laid before them, and further time had been given for consideration as to the mode of dealing with the remainder of the estate. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Stewart complained that the Finance Committee were constantly being upbraided in reference to these estates, but the Committee wished the Council to take the responsibility of this matter on themselves. (Hear, hear.) He had no feeling in the matter. Mr. Jeffery said, as a member of the Special Improve ment Committee which was appointed, he thought he had some reason to complain. They had not yet had any opportunity of conferring with the Finance Committee. 4,1 It might be desirable if this suggestion were referred to in of t he that committee mode he neigo i ; Ines witA --'-- 0 nciple j .1v show.t )iation lercies to see whether they could come to any plan to submit to that council. There would be a main artery running through this land to the south end of the town. It would be suicide in that council to part with that land which they now possessed, as he had no hesita tion in saysng that a portion of it would be required for the boulevard, and the rest would afterwards realise as much money as if • they sold it all now and then ; they should have the main artery for a boulevard for nothing, the land would be so much enhanced in - value. He contended that by selling this land now, they :would be pursuing a course directly opposed to the interests of the population whom they represented. He hoped Mr. Earle's recommendation would be adopted, and suggested that the recommendation of the Finance Committee be referred to the Special Improvement Committee. 1' , r pora 6 0 ()rage (41 ,i crhbourit i v Les. 0 andowu e co-open e 4 Md . II 1 - elll ill 'I .t was no °. lly • that u P e f anOt , ' t acre s, te, 'est Der.V for buP„ years ' 4 ' been P ;t_ the 01 1 to C°lr vo' 1. ti .d. on A ti! atte Cohe u I L nide. .ts , makol the to l, guested Ltiou ; 311 1 ,1 woult' icil. sell mg, was q and, •"'„t t ?'et, a. p ,„ e t, , oraniit . this `perth enoa,' mts ° ll er that proper port tali Le for . 0$ rejects Mr. Woodruff said that he was at a loss to understand, or rather to reconcile, the different motives of the gentle men. Mr. Earle recommended that a large extent of land should be appropriated for a boulevard. That, he understood, was for the aristocratic community. (Loud cries of "No, no," and " Hear, hear.") A beautiful drive ! (Cries of " Hear, hear.") Another gentleman was very anxious, indeed, that a poorer class of the community should have the advantage of a public park, and complained that the smallest houses should be built in connection with it. If they waited for any im provement until Mr. Earle's crotchet, as he would call it, was realised, they would wait a long time. He thought the Finance Committee had some right to comfilain. He would, however, vote for the amendment. Mr. Sheil said he did not see how the disposal of a part of the land would materially interfere with the dis posal of the rest. This question of the boulevard did not attract him very much. The position of Liverpool, the length of the days, and the direction in which the Wind blew, almost always in a westerly direction, were not in favour of it; and, besides, it would be a very costly matter. He thought the best pl an wou ld be to make a better communication with the docks. Mr. Anderson was of opinion that the boulevard would be of great benefit to the poorer classes, and he thought it would be very desirable to postpone this recommen dation. lot eS - t y nsider lY the b°i ttji ( Mill ° ~V , P ?lan: l ip Sall Mr. Gladstone thought they should be in no hurry. They should take time to deliberate upon the question. Until lately he never att ac h e d much importance to the formation of boule vards, but, like many other people, taking the Opportunity of seeing those boulevards made so much use . of by the poorer classes in Paris, he had come to quite a diff eren t conc l us i o n. The Chairman of the finance committee had reminded them that there was some fault found in the finance committee for not disposing of these estates. That was true, but he would bear in mind that there was no sugestion affecting this particular property. The Council had appointed a committee for a specific purpose, and in connection with tilt business of that committee, there was a certain . project which materially affected this property in par ticular. He therefore considered it premature and injurious to the interests of the public, if they were now called upon to decide upon this recom mendation of the finance committee, recollecting that the sub-committee of the finance committee sat several weeks considering it ; it was necessary, therefore, that they should have some further time to decide the question; and if an opportunity were given for personal inspection of the property, there would not be so much division on the subject. Mr. Aikin thought there could be no objection to a postponing of the matter for a few months. Mr. Stewart was sure he spoke his own sentiments, and the sentiments of the majority of the committee, that they had no desire to force this matter on the Council. Whether they decided to postpone it or not it would postpone itself. In the first place they could not get possession of it for twelve months. He did not wish to throw any difficulties in the way of a boulevard being erected. He concluded by stating, that the committee had given their best considera tion and attention to the matter. It was agreed that the matter be withdrawn. Mr. J. Stewart then proposed the alteration in the staff of officers under the late surveyor Mr Hughes, the consideration of which was postponed until the next monthly meeting of the Council. Mr. S. Holnie seconded the proposition, whicn was accordingly postponed. Mr. Woodruff wished to know whether, by the pro posed regulations, there would be an increase or a decrease in the expenses of the management of the staff. Mr. Holme replied, that there would be a decrease of 80 per annum. The proceedings of the Committee were then confirmed. Mr. Picton said, before the proceedings were confirmed, he wished briefly to allude to a subject of some importance, and one which had created a great amount of alarm in the minds of a number of persons who wire interested in the property. The subject to which I allude, is the presentment that was made by the grand jury at the Sessions-house, declaring that some houses in Neer rtird_qtr - ,pt were in a dangerous and. a;lspidated state: I have no doubt but that the presentment is quite called for under,the peculiar circumstances of the case; but what I have to complain of is, the over officiousness of au official in the surveyor's office. I hold in my hand a note, addressed to the owners of some property in Jamaica-street and Jamaica-place, which is to the following effect : that he gave them notice that he should at once proceed to pull the houses down. But before he I proceed any further on the subject I should like to have the opinion of the Town Clerk as to the law on the subject. .I do not think that the official to whom I have alluded has the power to pull down another • persons house. - The Town Clerk said, it was usual, when a present- merit was made by a grand jury, to have that present ment laid before the Council at the next meeting, and it was for them to decide whether the owner should be called upon to repair, or have the premises pulled down ; and until that step was taken, nothing could be don( and the notice alluded to by Mr. Picton was tun 3rema- Mr. Picton : Than the parties will have the chance of repairing them. It seemed that the clerk had taken the matter out of the hands of the Council altogether. He was glad the statement had been made, a 3 it would tend to allay the alarm the notice had occasioned. ' Mr. J. R. Jeffery begged to ask the Chairman of the Finance Committee one question. It would be in the recollection of all the members of the Council that, with the report of the committee's proceedings, was, every year, appended a most important document, by which they were enabled to form some idea as to the probable income for the year. This year they had not been supplied with any such document, and he wished to know why it had not been produced as usual ? He referred to the statement of the income and exp en dit ure of the Corporation for the year. Mr. Stewart replied that the statement had not been made, this year, owing to some outstanding accounts not having been settled, but he believed that they would be done so at the next Council meeting, when it should be supplied as usual. Mr. S. Holme also said the statement would be ready by the next Council meeting , . The proceedings were then, on the motion of Mr. Stewart, seconded by Mr. S. Holme, confirmed. MR. JEFFERY'S MOTION The next business on the paper was the* following motion, of which notice had been given by Mr. J. R. Jeffery. "To rescind or vary the following Resolution of the Council, passed on the 7th of July last : " ' That the Council sanction the following principle in reference to the mode of dealing with the leasehold pro perty of the Corporation, in those cases in which, in the opinion of the Council, that principle may be applied with safety and advantage to the Corporate estate, viz.:— " ' That, in lieu of receiving the gross amount of pur chase-money or fine, upon the granting or renewal of a lease, a rent be reserved, payable either quarterly or half yearly, such rent being calculated at a proper rate of interest on the amount of fine not paid or deposited, as hereinafter provided ; and, in addition thereto, such further rate per cent. as shall be sufficient, by accumula tion at compound interest, to equal at least the present value of the gross fine, the Council reserving the power, in all cases to which this principle may be applied, to require payment or deposit at the time of sale or renewal, of such proportion of the gross amount of fine as the circumstances of each case may seem to require.' "And to move that in every case in which, in the opinion of the Finance Committee, the principle of that resolution can be adopted with safety and advantage to the Corporate Estate, that committee do make a special report to the Council, stating what proportion of the gross amount of fine or purchase money ought to be paid in money, and the rate of interest which the balance should bear, and the amount of redemption money to be added to such interest in the shape of rent, to be reserved in the lease previous to advertising any property for sale , and that the Council's decision do form part of the conditions of such sale." Mr. Jeffery, in rising to propose the above resolution, said : It will be in thQ recollection of the Council, when I moved an amendment to Mr. Stewart's motion, in July last, my desire was to have it postponed for six months ; and it would have been much better if that arrangement had been carried out, and then we should have had in our possession the facts as to the state of the Corporation revenue, with one year's deficiency of the town dues. But in the absence of such figures, I have to deal with such as I have before me, and I must therefore ask the Council to bear with me, while 1 make the statement I am about to do.' When the subject was first brought forward by me, Mr. Stewart, in his remark, told us that there would not be any deficiency. I have his own words on that point, and they were to that effect ; but since then he seems to have altered his opinion, for while discussing about the sale of the hotel in Dale-street, he said, in answer to a question put by myself—lf they commuted the property, what would become of the revenue ? and he replied, " Well, there might be a deficiency." Now, I submit, that it is our duty to avoid a deficiency ; it is our duty not only to avoid a deficiency, but, if possible, to strive to increase the revenue, if it can be done, with a due regard to the interests of posterity. We have no right to de prive posterity ; but if we are to commute the whole of our estate - and I take it where wo have a right to corn- mute a part we have a right to commute the whole, — what will be the revenue we shall arrive at ? Some gen tleman, on the last occasion, said that revenue so derived was capital. Now, I don't think that reflection will sustain him in that view. If our predecessors have anticipated our income, and we are not to continue that anticipation, there must be an interregnum, an interregnum of a. very serious character indeed ; an interregnum that will cause a deficiency amounting to very many thousands of pounds in the revenue of this 'Corporation. Let me take the figures as they appear on the balance sheet, ending with the 31st of August last year. I find that the revenue derived from the sale of leases and renewals for seventy-five years was £23,170. I find the income from rents from tenants-at-will was £10,102 ; from this must be deducted the cost of repairs, £1,630, which leaves a net income of £8,472, thus giving a total of £31,642. That I understand to be our income closing with August last, from the sale of leases, and for renewals, and from the rents of tenants in possession. Now, sir, if we were to commute these amounts, our income would be as follows :—Taking the first amount, £23,170, at a commutation of 4-' 7 7 per cent. per annum, our income would be reduced to £1,130. Now, if we have no right, as Mr. Stewart says, to spend the future in one particular, we have no right to spend the future in another particular ; but my argument is, that we have a right to spend, if we so think fit, whatever we may derive from the sale of leases falling out ; whether at a ter mination of 75 years leases, as hitherto granted, or for a renewal or extension of 75 years leases, I say we have a perfect and entire right to the appropriation of that money as we may think fit. We are owners in possession —we don't profess as a Corporation to be land lords in possession, but we do profess to be lessors. But if that be !the whole further sum, the half of it may be required for other purposes, making £4,236 more revenue, that is if we ma y cons id er that the improvement consequent on the sacrifice of that property has enhanced the remaining portion of the site onto--half. Alderman. s. Holm interruVced Mr. Jeffery, and complained that gentlemen were leaving the room. There was scarcely a sufficient number of gentlemen present to form a council. The Mayor: There is scarcely a council now. Mr. Jeffery wished to know what he was to under stand by the remark of Mr. Holme ? Alderman Holme said, he made the remark, because when a question came on so seriously affecting the whole of the finance of the Corporation, only a few gentlemen were present to attend to Mr. Jeffery's remarks. Then Mr. Jeffery complained. Mr. Earle : They will read and digest it in the papers. Mr. Holme said : Gentlemen were frequently finding fault with the Financial Committee, and were not ihemselves present—generally all such —when financial questions were brought forward. Mr. Jeffery : It is a fact too often occurring, that gentleman don't interest themselves in matters of finance so much as they should. When the resolution recorded on the books was carried, seven out •ot ten did not understand the question or the way in which they voted. (Hear, hear.) I quite agree in th e r emark—that gentlemen don't give that attention to financial matters that they deserve at their hands. But, doubtless, it maybe supposed they will read what has been done in the papers to-morrow; that is, if they do take the trouble to read what occurs. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Earle : If you will condense it, sir, they will read, it (laughter). kr. - Jeffery : Bat if there are any who won't read what is done, there are others who take more interest in our proceedings. But to proceed with what I was saying. Supposing the property which we shall retain, after sacrificing what I have mentioned, a moiety of that in our possession for the town improve ments, I will suppose that sixteen years purchase will put us in possession of £103,000 ; commute that to 44- per cent per annum, and then we have a revenue of about £5,000. Instead of that we should have a revenue of £6,164. Now, I ask gentlemen. in this room if they are prepared for such a result ; if they are prepared to impose a borough rate, in order to make up the deficiency ; or are they prepared to make up any portion of that deficiency by a borough-rate at all ? It is simply a question—if you will do so—or much this year, the next year and in subsequent years ? Then it booomoq a question— whether or. not a deficiency would arise in tho corporate accounts ? To the last year's account we must add what was received from the town-dues, and not to be re eived again. We must add then a deficiency on the water account ; and this I must commend to the attention of the chairman of the Finance Committee, for it, is also their matter and not exclusively that of the Water Com mittee ; and it must be borne in mind that that com mittee obtains money at the minimum rate of interest, and they can so have as much money as they want for their own purposes, clearly showing that the security they can give is ample for any money they may require. What is the security. Revenue derivable by the sale of water, and the corporate estates given as collateralsecurity, which as to its soundness, is of course unquestionable. able to raise such money as the Committee may require at a minimum rate of interest. But there is a deficiency, which the corporate estate, as collateral security, will have to find, through the Chairman of the Finance Committee and the Committee; and that amount they will have to add to the deficiency, which it will be necessary for them to provide for. I regret the estimated accounts are not before the Council, that you might have, instead of my opinion, the opinion of the deputy-chairman and the other members of the Finance committee. I, as a private member of the Council, must, in the absence of the accounts, give you my information upon this. £3,000 I am bound to add to that of this year, obtained by an additional halfpenny water rate, through the Health Committee, in consequence of the poverty of the Water Committee. These figures give us £86,259, and I have to subtract from that £14,000 surplus revenue from last year, and £16,000 paid on account of the Dock Estate, leaving a deficit of £56,259. Or, if I subtract, simply taking the town-dues and water account, I bring the deficit to £61,000, less £14,000, and £16.000, which leaves the deficit at £30,000. The condition of the estimate is a circumstance we must carefully regard. I may be laying myself open to the charge of attacking the committee, 1 own, but these remarks, I take it, do not apply to the present com mittee only. But here is the omission, and a very important omission, and if it were the only one, I would not comment upon it ; but there was omitted in the last account—a vitally important document —the balance sheet of the assets and liabilities, by which, had it been given, gentlemen might have informed themselves on the position of the accounts. I called attention to that in November, and if not an unintentional. omission, it would have been supplied to this Council before now, I should suppose; and I shall be glad to learn from the chairman of the committee, that he is prepared to say it was an unintentional omission, and that the account shall be furnished. The deficiency does not rest there. In the Finance Committee, for years,' it has been the practice to give the details of sales from leases for 75 years. In the particulars of sales, for instance, are mentioned the streets, the amount of money received for the lease of 75 years, and the situation, as in Lord-street, Church-street, or Bold-street ; and from that was deducted the expense incurred, even showing the commission of the auctioneer. As a council, we connot have too much of that sort of infor mation,; but, on the part of the Finance Committee, they have not furnished us with so much information as this Council should possess, to enable them to form an accurate opinion. It is impossible for all the members to wade through and examine the books of the Corporation, and look into every account and read them through the pages of the ledger; unless the Corporation accounts are con densed, and put into clear statements, the members of -the Council cannot possibly deal with those accounts. (Hear, hear.) I take it, our first duty should be to avoid a deficiency of revenue ; we should rather strive to increase than diminish, and by the adoption of Mr. Stewart's resolution, I do not think it will have that effect, if it is applicable to the property to which I have referred. It should not be applicable to such instances as when we sold the borough jail land, which should have been sold like all other property, and what it produced should have been placed to the credit of the borough jail account, and should have gone in substitution of new outlay. When the Sessions House is sold, the proceeds should be carried to the credit, in like manner, of the new Sessions House, now building in Hatton-gar den. Because the Council sanctions a rate for the erec tion of this building, I don't think that what is produced by the sale of the building which it displaces should go to the credit of the borough fund, and that the present generation should bear all the expense, for the benefit of posterity. The money should not be 'so appropriated. What is the character of the property which may, per chance, come under Mr. Stewart's motion, I would say pro bably that of the Newsham House estate, when the estate is laid out, an,' the roads and sewers are paid for, if the commutation can then be acted on there? If there be any residue after paying the expenses incurred, it may be ap plicable in such cases as that; and such, probably, may be the case with the money to be received from the dock estate, when invested in freehold pnrchases and sales of 75 years leases effected, this principle of commutation might be adopted. If applicable the resolution should not stand upon the books in its pre sent form. Our sacred duty is to obtain the public: confidence on occasions of their attending these sales, and to see that wo do nothing, as our own act and deed, that would lesson the confidence of any gentleman who might go into the public sale room—we should do nothing to interfere with or controul his bidding ; he should feel that when he goes there he is on a par with any gentleman who may bid. I think the conditions of the sale should be made as public as the sale itself, or as are the biddings at that sale. I will suppose a gentleman attending that sale under the conditions mentioned on Mr. Stewart's motion ; I would suppose him intimate with every member of the Finance Committee, and that he knows if he is a buyer he may have the purchase money commuted. But if a stranger goes, he does not know anybody in the room, is ignorant of the commuta tion or anything of the sort ; and it may be that a third person goes, who has not the whole of the money, but who make arrangements to raise it on mortgage, though it might be with some difficulty; but if he could say for a certainty that he would have it commuted, he would not be required to look round for the money, because he would know that he could have it from the Corporation itself. Now, will any gentleman venture to tell you that these three parties are on an equal footing? It is clear that they are not ; because Mr. Stewart's motion expressly states—the pro perty should be put up by public auction, and that it be sold for cash payment, but that the finance committee may have the power to commute if subseqo.ently requested, and if they think fit. Clearly tile man who is unknown to, or unacquainted with tho c;ommittee, has not the same advantages as the man wAio knows the committee. I would give the committee ,no suc h power, and, by not ,giving it, so raise the committee above suspicion. (dear, hear.) I Iniieve the possession of that power will place them i: a a position which, as individual members, they aren.'ot desirous of being placed in. I would give them as 'tittle discretion as it would be possible to eive them, Therefore, if gentlemen would be kind enough to rer A d my amendment, they would see it is an addition, rai addendum, to Mr. Stewart's motion, whilst it will develop and give it a specific character, by providing that the Corporation, when they announce a sale, shall state what amount may remain as commuta tion, at what rata of interest, and what fpr tq. THE NORTHERN TIMES THURSDAY, JANUARY 6, 1859. demption of purchase, - or mortgage money, if the buyer should see fit. I can imagine nothing more unsatisfactory than that it should remain as it is— serving one and subjective to another's corrupt influences —than the resolution as it now stands on the books of the council. (Hear, hear.) I think we should thoroughly deprive the committee of the power of corruption, which it now possesses, and' if my amend ment be added to the motion, that will be done, but I see no necessity for the motion at all (hear, hear) ; and I would have moved, as an amendment, that it be rescinded, but when I saw that the council had passed the motion by a majority of two to one, I did not think it would have been respectful to the Council if I had done so. But, viewing it as I did, I saw the pernicious power given to the com mittee, and which might be used to a pernicious end. I felt it my duty to call the attention of the Council to the fact, and then to leave it to the Council to deal with the matter as they might think best. I have said I thought there was only one other body that had power equal to the power confided to the Council—l mean the powers given to 'the magistracy in granting licenses—a power which there is but one opinion of throughout almost all the country, that it is injurious in the highest degree and should be altered. (Hear, hear.) I now ask the Coun cil not to create in a section of their body, a power capable of being exercised in the same way and capable of producing the same results, and being applied to the same corrupt purposes. (Hear, hear.) I move the motion of which I have given notice. Mr. Stitt seconded the amendment, reserving his remarks to a further stage of the discussion. Mr. Stewart said, although the whole poliey of the scheme was embraced in the remarks of Mr. Jeffery, he should not apply himself .to the objections to the general question ; not because they were not capable of being answered, but because he thought it best to confine himself merely to the question involved in the amendment. The mover of the amendment, Mr. Jeffery, had not himself a stronger feeling than he (Mr. Stewart) had that all should be dealt with alike in the - disposition of the Corporate property. (Hear, hear.) But he had yet to learn that the Council were offering a boon to anybody in asking him to pay 41 per cent interest, and to pay off the principal at the rate of 3 per cent. He felt strongly that the great object of the Corporatron ought to be, under their present circumstances, the due .pplioation of their money to the production of inoome. (Hear, hear.) In the report of the Finance Committee, which had been submitted to the Council, and which was approved of, the committee, feeling a strong desire not to disturb the feeling which was entertained by all persons as to the continuance of the system of leasing which had been long adopted, said, and he thought with great pro priety, "Your committee desire, in the first place, to cor rect an impression which,- they are informed, prevails to the effect that it is intended by this recommendation, to alter generally the usual and customary mode of dealing with leases." What was that mode ? To take a fine. The report went on to say—" Your committee have no such intention, and should their recommendation be ap proved of by the Council, it will still be optional with lessees to pay the fines on granting the renewals . of their leases. The application of the principle will be special and exceptional, and exercised only on the application, or with the concurrence, of the lessees, and in such cases as, in the opinion of the Council, the principle can be applied with safety and advantage to the Corporate estate." (Hear, hear.) The principle thus enunciated and recognised by the Council was really to leave the system t o b e matter of arrange ment, in which the parties could, in point of fact, exercise their own discretion as to commuting the lease. What was the fact with regard to it in one instance ? The principle had been applied, it was well known, to one property, and one only. An application was made to the Fivan e Co:nmitte?, for the renewal of a lease of a valuable property, upon which the fine amounted to about £1,600, and perhaps there could be no better security in the world than that property, which was worth several thousands. The solicitor of the lessees w ro t e t o k now whether they could commute the fine, and an intimation was conveyed to him that if the lessees were so disposed, the Finance Committee would bring it before the Council. After a lapse, however, of a few week s , th e lessees made their election to pay ie fine. (Hear, hear.) The question was, were the Corporation getting all they could reasonably expect by the mode proposed, or were they not. If the committee were actually offering any loan at the expense of the Corporation, then let them raise the terms, and there would be no loan in it. (Hear, hear.) In many cases he thought it would be exceedingly convenient to men of business if the pro posed plan were adopted; and his desire was to give them every convenience, provided it could be done with perfect justice and security to the corporate estate. Mr. Jeffery had taken the whole of the corporate pro perty as being subject to the plan of commutation. He (Mr. Stewart begged to say that the bulk of the corpo rate property was of a character to which th e p r i n ciple could not be applied at all. .(Hear, -hear.) Large 'sales to which the principle could be applied were the exception not the rule. The great bulk of the p ro p er t y was small house property, which would not bear the ap plication of the principle, and to. which he had not the slightest intention of advocating it. (Hear, hear.) He thought there would be great objection to making, before hand, conditions of sale which would be obligatory upon the Corporation and not upon the purchaser. (Hear, hear.) But if the committee were offering for sale a class of property, the nature of which would make it desirable that the fine should be commuted, he should have no hesitation in recommending that when it was offered, it should be stated that the Corporation would be willing, provided the terms were sati s f ac t ory, to commute the fine,• upon the principle laid down. (Hear, hear.) When they were offering the property at the bottom of Church-street, which they would shortly have to do, and other property of that class, he thought there could be no objection. He thought the mode now pro posed to effect this; by Mr. Jeffery's resolution, rather a roundabout way. He saw great objections to announcing conditiims in all cases which would be fast upon one party and loose upon the other party; and he believed there would be exceeding great difficulty in shaping the conditions of sale'ter involve a commutation hereafter to be made. It had been said, that if these conditions had been known, £l,OOO more would have been given for the George Hotel. What a' compliment to his *scheme 1 He never hal supposed that his proposal could be the means of enriching the Corporation in such a manner. All he had endeavoured was to get for the Corporation the full rate of interest and full security. In every matter of detail, for the purpose of carrying on their business in the most efficient and satisfactory manner, the Finance Committee, should always feel obliged to any gentleman who could suggest any improvement to them, and such suggestions should always meet with the fullest attention. He had himself devoted to the present subject a great deal of attention,, and certainly not with the view of showing favoritism to any one, but merely for the purpose of serving what he believed to be the interests of the Corporation. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Picton could see very little difference between the views of. Mr. Jeffery, and those of the Chairman of the Finance Committee, and he thought a suggestion might be made which should harnionise the two. The great object of Mr. Jeffery, as he took it, was that every transaction of the kind, proposed by the Finance Committee, should first be submitted to the Council. He did not hear the Chairman of the finance committee at all object to• that, and he appre hended that a simple addition at the close of the original resolution, as carried by the Council, stating that in all cases of sales, on the principle of commutation, the sub ject should first be brought before the Council, would satisfy all parties. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Stewart : Certainly—it is so. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Picton said, if thai were so they were now discus- sing a subject which was wholly unnecessary. It was, however, scarcely possible to allude to the subject without lugging in the principle in some shape or other. He therefore, upon that subject, begrre d to give it as his deliberate opinion, having studied the subject somewhat—although probably not so much as Mr. Stewart, with whom he had not equally great experience—that by the system of leasing hitherto pursued, the Council had lost a very large sum of money throuoh its corporate funds ; and, in a very few words, he would show that to be the case, if they started fair from the beg7inning. Suppose a corporate property, which had been in lease, of £l,OOO a-year ' falling out of lease, and that it were leased again for £lOlOO a-year, what would they have at the end of seventy-five lears? 11,000 for each year—in the whole £75,000, f, however, they proceeded on the principle of commu tation now proposed, they would get, for the first year, probably, only £5O, instead of £1,000; but at the end of twenty years the two principles would equalise them selves, and after the first twenty years they would go on increasing and increasing in their yearly revenue from that source, until, at the end of 75 years, they , would get to £3,750, instead of £l,OOO. He knew, that if they went upon the strict mathematical prin ciple, the 11,000 a-year, by the first mode, put out to interest, and accumulating at compound interest, would come to the same thing. This was theoretically correct, but practically they all knew that it did not re4ult so, but that the money was all spent as it came in. The first of the two modes would give them £l,OOO a year. The second, taking an average income from first to last, would give /1,875. Practically. then, the corporate estate, by the mode hitherto pursued, would lose in every such instance a sum . of £ l B7s t pe t r annum. • Mr. Stewart, very wisely considenngt r sa e of the corporate property, after what had recently taken place, urged that t 14074 07 s u Qu id gradually approximate another the better plan, than that which had been hitherto pursued ; not that it should be done violently or suddenly, but gradually and carefully, as circumstances should enable. (Hear, hear.) He thought Mr. Stewart had exercised a very wise and proper discretion, and that the Council should do well, so far as it was practicable, always looking to the maintaining of a sufficient income to meet their expenses, in following the advice he had given. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Steains was somewhat gartied, as a member of the Finance Committee, to hear so able a financer as Mr. Jeffery speak of a deficiency of something like £40,000. It had been alreadypointed out by Mr. Stewart, that Mr. Jeffery alluded to the whole of theleases of the Corporatien, as coming under the principle of commutation, whereas the application of that principle would be only rare and exceptional. Mr. Jeffery, he contended, had also com mitted a (Treat fallacy in regard to the deficiency in revenue. lie had pointed out that £42,742 was received last year from the town dues, which would not come in again. Now he would take it in round numbers that the town dues were £140,000 a-year. That amount was commuted for a sum which would produce interest to the amount of about £70,000 a year. Therefore, in the shape of interest they would receive back again half of the amount. which was lost. Then there _ were some sums of money to be arranged between the Dock Board and the Corporation, and the differenee of interest in favour of the Corporation would be something like .L 7,000 or £B,OOO. There were also items of expendi ture which would not have to be incurred again - such as the well-earned and justly paid gratuity to the Town Clerk, and the expenses of a statue and picture of Mr. Brown. Taking these considerations altogether, instead of there being a deficiency he was bold enough to say that they would have a positive surplus. (Hear, hear ) Mr. 'Gladstone thought, there would *be nothing objectionable in disposing of leasehold property by auction to the .highest bidder, a certain ground rent having been declared. That was a simple course of pro cedure, and he could not see why it should not recommend itself to the Corporation. No doubt there were Many parties who might be able to erect buildings, but who had not the means of paying the principal for the land, and, at the same time, supplying money for erecting houses. Therefore, he thought now, as he did upon the former occasion, that it might be of great im portance to the Corporation that some such principle should be established. Ile further thought the principle was a sound one, which placed everybody at a public sale upon the same footing, and that the buyers should not be oxpased afterwards to the caprices of the Finance or any other committee of the Corporation, but that every one should understand dis tinctly when he made an offer, what amount he was about to involve himself in. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Stewart had referred to the' Parchase'of the George Hotel. HE (Mr. Gladstone) considered, and ever should consider lon bond interest might be paid_ for. It so happened that it was so that a very large proportion of the bond interest was paid at a certain portion of the year, and concentrated itself into a very small amount. Mr. Steains's argument therefore .fell to the ground. Mr. Gladstone complained, in reference to the sale of the George Hotel, that the pro perty was sold under one class of conditions and bought under anoth er . All ow him (Mr. Jeffery), to say to that Council, if Mr; Stewart's motion was allowed to remain, this would be repeated at every sale. It would be repeated over and over again. Every man who attended, and bought property, would be subject to the subsequent resolution of the committee. The public should know the con ditions on which they were bidding, and not be subject to the caprice of the Finance Committee (hear, hear), and be perfectly independent of that committee, and know what they were buying. Ile would ask the council to adopt his proposition. He ' would append his motion to that of Air. Stewart's, if the council thought proper, or with the words added, to the effect "that in every case in which an auction for the Finance Com mittee take place, the condition s should be ascertained before the sale was announced, and whether they would commute. His reason for leaving it open to the buyer, was to remove the difficulty presented by the Finance Committee. If a man of wealth choosed to pay the money down, let him do so, but equal privilege should be given to the man who would com mute. He thus disposed of the objection of Mr. Avison. He complained of want of publicity of the proceedings of the Finance Committee. There was no desire on the part of the committee to give the slightest information, and until they admitted the reporters they would be accused of that love of secrecy. Mr. S. Holme repudiated this. Mr. Jeffery said, gentlemen appointed for the Watch Committee connected with public-houses Would not sit, and he contended that solicitors should not upon the Finance Committee, but should be ex cluded from it. With these remarks, he left the matter in the hands of the Council. • The motion was then put to the vote, when there appeared For—Councillors: Stitt, Woodruff, Corbally,Haydock, Clerk, Ryley, Bowring, Ridl e y, R ogers, J o b , G la d stone, Jeffery, .Johnson, Picton, Kitchen, Hodgson, Clint, Beckwith, Aikin, Anthony,-21. Against—The Mayor ; Aldermen : Bennett, Dover, Parker, Coope r , T urner , Gardner, Shand, Houghton, Tout min, Holme ; Councillors : Crosthwaite, Anderson, Crellin, Sheil, Shimmin, Barton, Turner, Tyrer, Steains, Avison, Rae, Shand, Tobin, Earle, Robertson, Stewart, Fara worth-27. The motion was declared lost, there being —for, 21; against, 27. THE W,ITCH COMMITTEE 3 his opinion was worth anything, that a very erious error had been committed in that instance. In The proceedings of this committee were read and con firmed, on the motion of Mr. Clint, seconded by Mr. James Johnson. The former gentleman said, the only special business was, that of accepting the tender of Mr. Burton, for the convevance of prisoners to Walton. Mr. Dover said the vans were unfit for pigs, much less for human beings. by the sale of the property. In the second place, . was a still more important objection, that the property was sold upon one set of conditions, and settled for upon _.. (Hear, . hear.) He therefore contended that a gross injustice had been done to the public, and he defied any man, even although he should raise the dead from their graves, to disprove that argument. (Hear, hear.) He was indisposed to take up byegones, but that was a subject in regard to which he should be prepared at all times and in all circumstances to defend the course which he had adopted. It appeared to him that the objection to Mr. Stewart's proposal was, that it had not the character of finality. (Hear, hear.) It was open to objections which ought not to exit. There should be in such cases nothing withheld, nothing uncertain, nothing which could in any way prejudice the buyer, who ought to know at the moment the precise terms upon which he was about to purchase. (Hear, hear.) As to the prin ciple itself, he concurred to some extent with Mr. Stewart, but he took the objections which he believed to have bean very .ably expressed by Mr. Jeffery. There could be no question but that the Corporation, by the adoption of some such principle, would probably be very mat eri ally the gainers, and would be able to dispose of a large amount of property, which at present _produced little or no revenue. (Bear, hear.) Mr. Aikin s ud the whole question appeared to him to bo merely as to the application of the principle. The gist of Mr. Jeffery's resolution, whi.rAt was not well worded, consisted in the words, "previous to advertis ing." He presumed Mr. Jeffery meant any property to which the principle should be applied. The Chairman of the Finance Committee stated, if he correctly under stood him, that he would have 113 objection to state, before offering a property for sale, whether the principle would or would not be applicable to it. (Hear.) If that were the case, agreeing as we did with many o f the arguments of Mr. Jeffery, with reference to the application of the principle and its soundness, he thought there was really very little difference between the mem bers of the Council upon the present subject. He was sure• Mr. Jeffery in his remarks did not mean to cast any reflections upon the Finance Committee, but merely to enunciate a sound principle, and leave as little as could be left to possible mismanagement. Mr. Avison said, he believed professional men through out the town were perfectly satisfied with the old system, and lie hoped the Council would hesitate before they departed from it. Mr. Stewart knew very well that there were estates in the town where the principle of a ground rent had been applied. There was the estate, for instance of the Marquis of Salisbury. Wh a t was t h e fact ? If any man built a house upon that land leased to him, subject to a ground rent, the moment ho applies for a mortgage upon the property, he invariably met with a difficulty in getting parties to lend him money upon mortgage, and why so ? Because the mortgagee said there was something tantamount to a previous mortgage upon the land. He believed Mr. John Shaw Leigh also tried the plan and found it a failure. If a party bought a piece of land undo the I syste ... HACKNEY CARRIAGE COMMUTE} Mr. Beckwith wished to know why reporters were not admitted to the Hackney Carriage Committee, as before. Mr. Clint briefly replied, and the proceedings were confirmed. THE HEALTH COMMITTEE The proceedings of this committee were next read. Mr. Alderman Dover moved their adoption. At the request of Mr. J. R. Jeffery, the Clerk read that portion of the minutes relative to a request from the Messrs. M'Fie, to erect a bridge from one of their buildings to the other, across Batchelor-street, which the committee had refused. Mr. J. R. Jeffery urged upon the Council to grant the request, and moved that the subject be referred back to the c ommittee. Mr. Hodgson begged to second the suggestion, and designated the refusal of it to be one of the highest wrought pieces of imagination that he had ever heard. Mr - . Beckwith considered the committee had acted very properly in the refusal, as he said Messrs. M'Fie had broken an engagement they had made Qa a previous occasion. Mr. Hohne spoke in favour of the request being granted, and advocated the erection of a bridge in this particular instance, as it could do no injury, but would be a great benefit to an extensive firm. Mr. Robertson Gladstone spoke in favour of the steps taken by the committee, and censured the conduct of the Messrs. After a brief discussion, the Council divided, when there appeared for the amendment 21, and against it 22: The voting was as follows : For the - motion—Aldermen Thomas Bold, Thomas Dover,. Joseph Cooper, J. Hayward Turner, Raymond Houghton. Councillors Daniel Crosthwaite, Thomas D. Anderson, James Crellin, John Shimmin, John Clerk, Thomas Avison Thomas Wagstaff, John Rogers, Thomas Bulky Job, William Earle, Robert Hutchison, James R. Jeffery, Tames A. Picton, T. Llewelyn Hodson, R. hr. Beckwith -Total 21. • Against the motion —The Mayor, Aldermen William Bennett, James Parker, Richard C. Gardner, Samuel llolme. Councill ors J o h n J o h nson S t i tt, John Wood ruff, Richard Sheil, C. J. Corbally, Roger Haydock, 'William Barton, Charles Turner, James Steains, James Ryley, Charles T. Bowring, David Rae, Thomas Ridley, Robertson Gladstone, James Johnson, Joseph Kitchen, Francis A. Clint, John Farnworth, William 11. Anthony —Total 22. Mr. Holme then moved that the request of Messrs. M‘Fie be complied with. _ e co posec and bought more than he wanted, he would divide it and sell parts. But the whole land was subject to one ground rent, and every portion which a purchaSer bought was subject, not to a proportion but to the entire ground rent. This led to groat disputes between party and party; and he feared very much, if the Council adopted the plan, they would be adopting what would prove extremely obnoxious to the pnblic. There might be cases where the principle could be fairly applied, but they ought not to force parties. _ _ _ Mr. Stewart said, there was no compulsion whatever contemplated. (Hear, hear.) The commutation could only take place where the les3ee desired it and the lessers agreed to it. (Hear, hear.) - Mr. Stitt thOught,' it would economise time very much if gentlemen would bear in mind the real question for discussion. The principle of Mr. Stewart's motion had been affirmed by a large majority, and was not now under discussion. Mr. Stewart said, the great question for them to discuss was—would the Council get all they were entitled to and all they could in every transaction ? But he (Mr Stitt) thought that depended very much upon 'another question. Did they put all the . buyers upon an equal footing. (Hear, hear.) Until they had settled that question, he maintained that they could not say whether or not they would get the full amount which they could otherwise secure. (Hear, hear If in the case supposed by Mr. Jeffery, three men business came forward to make purchase, one of whom was. in the secret of the terms, another in partial ignorance, and a third in total ignorance, he would put it to any gentleman in the room, whether, under those circumstances, the Council could sell the land as well as they might do under other cir cumstances ? (Hear, hear.) How was that to be met ? By giving publicity prior to the sale, so that all parties coming to make a purchase should know precisely the terms upon which they were to make it. (Hear, hear.) That was not, it appeared to him, capable of being carried out by the Finance Committee's resolution as originally placed upon the books, and he believed the amendment would accomplish the objects. Mr. Alderman Parker declared that there were no secrets in the Finance Committee, and that everything which was done there was brought before the Council. Mr. Andason said, if Mr. Jeffery meant that when the property is. advertised to be sold, the terms should be stated, or at the time of the sale, there could belittle dif ference, for, if he understood correctly, Mr. Stewart stated this. Mr. Ryley thought there was in practice very little dif ference, All that he wanted was that everybody should know what the principle was. The Council should affirm the principle, and then everything was done, and they public might leave the Finance Commi ttee to carr y it out, and they. would carry it out honourably and fairly ; but let their have the principle ac knowled g ed by the Council on asto i b a e a s u old. a uctions the wh i‘ a l t r t . e s rm hi s m t al he in p r r e ope ma r r t k y ed 7 that terms of sale were state d. ( Hear, hear. ) Mr. Jeffery said Mr. Steains h ad s tated that he had fallen into a fallacy. He thought he could turn the tables, and show that Mr. Steains had fallen into a fallacy. • If a Mr. Ste . could Steains s how him from past experiments of th e ‘ committee that the interest had fallen into the exch. / c equer preeisely sover eign for sovereign, as the tencn duesflowed could divide the sum received as c ould half it, but until he _ _ town dues by two. Ile could do that, it might be that the interest of the . whole year was put into the last quarter, dealt with in the the portion of the y ear on the last day of August , the first of January as might be lav' 0. - Auonst t, . g q the last da the accounts delivered . to them, amount received from o the last day of August, and it in ° a subsequent period of the year, from y 0 December, three-fourths of the Mr. 'Woodruff seconded the amendment, which, on a division, was carried by 28 to 15. Mr. Clint asked in what position the borough engineer stood in regard to that body. He asked this question from a report that he had seen in the papers of the proceedings of the Tosteth Park Board of Health. lie would like to know if the Council receives any benefit from Mr. Newland's services, to the Toxteth Board. Mr. Dover said the Council had sanctioned the borough engineer to give his services to some of the out town— ships for the benefit of the public. They did not know directly whether he got money for his services, but it would not be supposed that he would give his services gratis. There was a case the other day where the Burial Board for Warded a small sum to the Health Committee for the engineer. There was no doubt that the terms upon which Mr. Newlands were engaged, that he was to .) give his whole se rv i ces t o th e Corporation. But it was considered by the Council to be for the benefit of the public, that he should give his service to the out town ships. The Corporation got no benefit from these services. Mr. Picton said it was for the good of the public at large that there should be one system of dniinage, and Mr. Newlands was allowed to give his services for this and other objects for the good of the town and district. lie was astonished at the resolution of the Toxteth Board of Health appointing Mr Newlands as honorary engineer, when the fact was that he was paid for his services. He thought the matter should be put upon its right footing.. Mr. Avison said it did not arise from the out-townships, but from the Corporation passing a resolution that there should be one uniform system of drainage. There was be eo fixedconsidered charge in allowed wed serviceto o M r. f a "A n 'e y ‘ b v l o a d n y d s b , u a t s t h b e e c c o o u u l d n e n i ot l ; and, although he had rendered very valuable services te. the Board of Health, he had not received a farthing for it yet. In answer to a guestion put by Mr. Wocdruffe, the Chairman of the Committee said they had taken the memorial of the watchers into consideration, but, for reasons that had already been given, they could not continue their services, but between 70 and 80 of them were employed. Mr. Robertson Gladstone wished to know whether the proceedings had been regularly confirmed. Several Councillors said that the proceedings had been carried, which was confirmed, after some discussion, by the Mayor, Mr. Gladstone asserting- that lie had never heard them put to the council. On the motion of Mr. Alderman S. Holme_, the council was adjourned until Wednesday next, when the remainder of the business will be disposed of. In Genoa a vessel was launched some days ago, and named cc A. Milan o ," a ft er th e so ldi er who attempted smile time ago to assassinate the King of Naples. The authorities at once interfered, and ordered that a name calculated to excite the legitimate complaints of an ally, should be removed. The vessel was consequently re christened " L'Unito." Those who are anxious to add to the. decorations. they already wear the tribute of the Turkish. government to their gallantry, will be glad to. hear (says the Unita Service Gazette) that forty-seven thousand medals have arrived for distribution to the British army and navy. They are very small, with a ring attached, for facilitating suspension. On the obverse of the medal are three cannons and three flags on the reverse the name of the Sultan. Lamartine's subscription lags heavily, but his earnings continue great. The Siecle publishes its seventh Lamar — tine subscription list. T has he ,.i d iv or s ia iy tio .p n a s ui a L ro ara v a e r r t Y in al e na this ll. The highest sum appears to be 100 f, and the lowest one penny, or ten centimes. The most freqelnltclatuuatrothesisyatrh,eca,9lo3, 5f., 20f. As a contrast to this a paragraph . S Hachette, the publisher, yorri4,i3tes;.o4,ot4Oroe,f,,:ancs (.414:Qi.',0) for his