The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-04-03 00:00:00

{C r 7- - f';.\-1 t r : ,/ , : : ,• ;. 4 , .. 1 A 4. ATri . ' • - • 4 - --..... 11111.."--. r. ._cAv 711 . W. clitittl4ntlYs LAST GASP—'NB CUR !WILL-It rnus tertrY gratifying to the friends of religion to view the std of matters with our voluntary brethren. Beat from every point which, in unopposed security, they had declared invulnerable ; their fine-spun theories brushed away like so many useless and unseemly cobwebs, and their unmerited abuse and ribaldry met with open can dour and christian mildness ? The best proof of the desperate condition in which their cause is now involved, is the disgraceful interruptions which, on one or two occasions, they have lately indulged in during the delivery of the lectures in defence of establishments. It galls them to the quick to think that the miserable lucubrationi which they dolefully drawl out to an audience—whose appearance, speaking generally, is the best argument, if one was still wanting, why the voluntary church doctrine should be scouted—are passed over " unnoticed and" al most " unknown," with the exception of the few called together by the fortnightly appearance of the formidable bills—headed church establishments, by the bye—on the walls of St. Giles' or the Tron. , T hey are going down, and they know it. Even the voice of their champion is hushed, or when heard, is now so changed that it sounds " like the still, sweet fall of music far away." They have raised a spirit in the madness of their enthusiasm that threatens to overthrow even the little hold they yet possess over the affections of the lower orders of the people. Had they only remained peaceable and con tented, giving to everyone that freedom of opinion . so liberally allowed to themselves , an d been more sparing and less envious of their neighbours, the severe retribution that has now come upon them—in the influx'nf the best portion of those who on trivial matters differed from our church discipline, again within its walls, and is that most efficacious of all, as providing for the spiritual interests of the poorest in our land, the church accommodation scheme now in active progress—might have been delayed for some short time longer. From an ap.parent evil much good often springs, and it is from voluntary opposition that many members of the church have had their affections for her sacred institutions re newed and strengthened, by examining more closely and weighing more carefully those blessings which she so liberally extends to all. - .. It is painful and most distressing, however, that men can be found, and Scotsmen too, who, in a British House of Commons, repudiate the idea that Scotland stands in need of public assistance for the extension of her church. Have they ever compared the crowded population of our cities with the meagre provision which the church—allow ing her to the full extent of the means she now pos sessess, with active clergymen and crowded benches— could supply for the spiritual -wants of the accumulating mass of the poor and destitute ? And would they ven ture the unprovided for of these on voluntary liberality, for gospel instruction? Are they aware that, in many of our country parishes, with populations averaging from six to eight and nine thousand souls, there is only one parish minister and one established church to meet their increasing religious wants? No wonder that the dissent ing . and secession churches have mustered congregrations in rich fields like these for their labours; the only won der would have been had they failed in their object of filling their walls. The voluntaries have not much credit, all things considered, even in the little-they have done; and now that the eyes of the people are open to the de ficiency of their claims on their support, and the total inefficiency of their system to meet the spiritual wants of the poor, these labours will be still more and more les sened and abridged. Petitions have already , been presented from many of our town and country parishes, expressive of their at tachment to the church of Scotland, and praying for additional accommodation. Wherever such a want is felt the case should be immediately made known; the time has now come for redress; the friends of the church are at the helm of the state, and it is their wish that the poorest and most destitute in our land may have the bless ings of the gospel brought home to them. The friends of establishments know that the most effectual way to check the unhallowed attempts of the voluntaries is to extend the usefulness of the Church of Scotland. Let all, then, bestir themselves; the parish minister and the parish schoolmaster have reared up among us a religious and highly intellectual peasantry ; the character of our country is that of her church ; and we only regret that Scotland has been so tardy in acknowledging, by ad dresses to the throne, her thankfulness for the passage in the King's speech, alluding to the extension of her national church. This may yet be remedied, and we trust that the hint will be acted upon with as little delay as possible.—Edinburgh Evening Post. IRARY PRESS. FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE. SPAIN. In the cruel war now carrying; forward in the north of Spain, it is gratifying to observe any traits of even ordinary humanity. The conduct of Zumalacarreguy, therefore, to the Christino garrison ofiEcharri-A:raoas, which would be considered mag nanimous in any contest, shines with double lustre in this. He not only did not . butcher his prisoners, which would here have been of itself a matter of no ordinary praise, but he gave them their option of being recondueted in perfect safety to Pampeluna, or of joining the forces of Don Carlos. This con duct had its natural, perhaps its expected effect, for, with the exception of the commander of the garrison and two officers, (who were sent back to their head-quarters,) all the garrison entered the service of Zumalacarreguy. The details of this story will be found in the letter of our Parisian correspondent, and in that of the Spanish correspondent of the Morning Herald. We hope that Lord Eliot will be able to induce both parties to follow regularly this course of lenient conduct to their prisoners. Military men in Spain, it is said, complain that as Radii, who was a regularly trained officer, mistook his talent so much as to act as a guerrilla, so Mina, whose practice has been almost ex clusively confined to guerrilla, warfare, is attempting to conduct the war on the principles of regular tactics. One of the most important outworks of Bilboa fell into the hands of the Carlists while the garrison was weakened by the necessity of protecting . a egnvoy, and the fall of Echarri-Aianaz is attributed to a cause of the same kind. In fact, collecting stoics and provisions for the cautious carrying on of the war appears now to be the main object of the once enterprising Mina; and yet convoys are most easily surpri ed by such troops as these of his partisan antago nists. The Spanish government, however, is determined on pouring a large army into those insurgent provinces, with the hope of crushing the Carlists is the course of the spring.— .statidard. PORTUGAL. The Pantaloon arrived on Monday at Falmouth from Lisbon, I which harbour she left on the 22d. The Lisbon journals con tain debates on the address to the Queen, which, as we have already stated, was carried by a majority of 75 to 25. The chambers are to close on the 26th instant. Liihon was gene rally quiet. A report was spread in the city this morning that a revolution had broken out in Oporto, but no credit is attached to it. • The Firefly also arrived at Falmouth on Sunday, bringing the' Mediterranean mail. She left Malta on the 12th, Gibraltar on the 21st, and Cadiz the 22d. There is nothing of more im portance in these mails than that some vess els of the Pacha of EEgypt had arrived off Suda from Alexandria, with the intention of preventing disturbances amonk , the Arabs. Letters from • Cadiz are silent as to the reported Carlist insurrection in Anda lusia, from which we may infer that there was no foundation for the statement.—Standard. EXECUTORS' AND ADMINISTRATORS' BILL. Abstract of a bill relative to Executors and Administrators, as amended by the committee. Brought in by Sir J. Camp bell and Dr. I;ushington. The word " will" to extend to a testament and to a codicil, and the words " personal estate" to leaseholds, monies, goods, 'rights, and all other personal property ; and the singular num ber shall apply to the plural, and the masculine gender to the feminine. The assent of an executor or administrator not to pass legal title to a legatee until the former has executed au assignment or release. Auy executor of an executor, whether 'or not he has proved the will of the testator, may, before act ing as such, renounce the executorship of such will, and any . —other person may ad..4mister to it.—Where letters of adini . :nistrat►on haVe been grantett'to anether persott, although there •was an executor, such letters to be voidable only when revoked, or when probate of will is granted to the• executor. All acts done under voidable letters of adtniuistration shall be valid; but the persons receiving property under them to account for it in equity to whoever is entitled to it under the will. All • Bleeds executed by an executor before proving. the will.shall be void. 'When an executor or administrator is desirous of being . discharged from that office he may be so by any court of equity, and the letters of administration may be granted to auy other person. This act not to extend to wills or letters of administration relati❑ to persons who shall die before the let of Januttry, 1836, and not to extend to Scotland. DUBLIN ELECTION COMMITTEE.—WEDNEspAy The committee assembled again this morning at the usual hour, when Mr. Harrison was heard at considerable length, in reply to Mr. O'Connell's argument of yesterday. The committee subsequently retired, and after a lengthened consultation returned into court, when the chairman said, that they . had resolved on admitting parole evidence to supply the deficiencies of the affidavits that had been tendered for the pur pose of verifying the poll books, in accordance with the act of the 4th of Geo. IV. c. 5, s. 71. Mr. Fiarrison.—Then I have now to proceed with the exami . nation of my witnesses. The learned gentleman then called Mr. Long, the clerk of the peace of the city and county of Dub lie. This gentleman proved the handwriting of the Right-Hon. J. Perrin. the Lord Mayor of Dnh.in, and also th_, manner iu whi c h the election was conducted, and the poll taken. The books now before the committee were altogether correct. This gentleman's examination was continuing when our re porter left. This decision having disposed of the objection on which the sitting members principally . relied,..ths qsuestion will be fully entered into, and decided en its merts. The friends and par tisans of those hononrable gentemen were fitted at this to them unlooked- l for occurenece.xceedingly discom- On Thursday evening tire inhabitants of Carstairs village w ere surprised and exci ted b g the unusual conduct of a do g that went howling ro und the loch in the centre of the village,"' and trying to direct th e attention•of all he met towards some thing in the water. Lights being brought out, and the surface of the loch examined, a moving body was discovered, iwhen some persons plunged in, and found the almost lifeless body of an Edinburgh carrier, only the skirts of his coat being above the -water. About an hour elapsed before animation mind be re istored, but by the exertions of the villagers, and a surgeon from .Carnwath, the torpor of death was exchanged for the ravings of intoxication, and by day-break next morning the carrier was able to take the road, in dry clothes,in Jears of gratitude to the people of Carstairs, and with a humiliating sense of the striking contrast between the rationality of the-dog and the irrationality of his toaster.—Gla , gow Chronicle. •. Imperial Varlianunt. HOUSE OF LORDS, MONDAY. The witness indemnity bill was brought up from the lower house by Mr. Ord, and was subsequently read a first time. The first report of the commissioners of municipal inquiry, and also the first report of the ecclesiastical commissioners, ap pointed to impure into the state of the e'stablished church - in Ireland, were laid upon the table. EDMUND PINE. Lord BROUCH AM wished to put a question to the noble duke (Wellington), the object of which was to have explained a statement which had been in circulation, and out of which some misunderstanding had arisen. It was stated in the papers that a man had lately been hung in Ireland under the name of Savage, whose real name was Pine, and who was innocent of the crime for which he suffered. The mistake was a lamentable one; but all human tribunals were more or less liable to err. Still, however, no branch of government required to be more carefully attended to or more tree from suspicion than the ad ministration of the criminal law, and he hoped it would not turn out that a mistake had occurred through any erroneous verdict. The Duke of Witt.t.tisoron believed that such would not be found to be the case. Lord PLursxwr said that the mistake arose out of the question of identity, and expressed his hope that such mistakes were not of ordinary occurience. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition from Lime rick against tithes. The Earl of BOSEBERY presented two petitions, numerously signed, one from the dissenters of Stromuess, and the other from the dissenters of York, praying for a reform of the church esta blishment in Ireland, and tor a correction of abuses in church endowments throughout the empire. The Earl of CARLISLE presented a petition from Halifax against the factory bill. Lord BROUGH A et presented a petition from Selwood, in Sotner setshire, numerously signed by the protestant dissenters of the independent persuasion, and others, praying relief from the griev ances which pressed upon them, .particularly as regarded mar riage, church rates, burial, exclusion from the Universities, and the want of an effective registration. OATHS ABOLITION BILL. The Marquis of CAM DEN was obliged by the courtesy of the noble duke (Richmond) in consenting to postpone at his request the third reading of the oaths abolition bill. He had since com municated with the Cambridge University upon the subject, and the result of that communication was that neither the heads of the University nor himself were inclined to object to the mea sure, but on the contrary would endeavour to meet its.: far as they thought they could. be Duke of RionmorrD then rose to move the third reading, when . Lord l3ttolicnam requested that it might be allowed to stand over until "Thursday. There were? some difficulties in the way of the bill 'which,it would be desirable to obviate, and therefore it was that he requested the delay. The objections were not to the principle of the bill, but of a technical nature, with one of which, and that an important one, the noble duke was himself acquainted. The Duke of RICHMOND consented to the postponement, and felt grateful to the noble lord for having looked into his bill, and ' for proferring his services to remedy its defects.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MONDAY. The. gallery _of the house, in consequence of the call, was not opened until six o'clock. THE IRISH CHURCH. The order of the day for going into a committee of supply having been read, Lord JOHN RUSSELL proceeded to address the house. The motion he was about to submit referred to the state of the esta blished church in Ireland, but before he entered on that subject he would refer to Mr. O'Connell's motion last year for a select committee to inquire and report on the means by which the union of Great Britain with Ireland had been effected. This motion had been met by a counter resolution, and an address to his Majesty which, in conclusion, contained the following worils:--" We humbly beg leave to assure your Majesty that we shall persevere in applying our best attention to the removal of all just causes of complaint, and to the promotion of all well considered measures of improvement." 'fo this address the other house of parliament had agreed ; it was presented to his Majesty, whd in his most gracious answer, said "That his Ma jesty would at all times be anxious to afford his best assistance in removing all just causes of complaint, and in sanctioning all well-considered measures of improvement." This he (Lord John) considered a solemn contract entered into by the united voice of the legislature with the people of Ireland, and he now came before them that day to entreat them to fulfil their part of the condition by the removal of the just grievances of the people of Ireland. It was no answer to his motion to say that the stability of the Irish church would be shaken by its suc cess, founded on distant apprehensions of danger; they must either redress the wrongs of Ireland or repeal the union. (Hear.) With respect to the state of Ireland, every statesman who had had to do with it had failed ,• with respect to the phy sical condition of the people of Ireland, and the poverty which weighed them down, the present was not the proper time for their consideration ; but with respect to their moral condition, and how far the established church bore upon it, he thought the present a fit opportunity for discussing that question. There was a tendency in the Irish-character to violence and outrage, which arose from an opinion that the law by which they were governed was not fairly administered; hence these outrages were sometimes committed on an unoffending clergyman, some times on a Roman Catholic. The periods most distinguished in our annals were marked with dissensions and misery in Ire land. In the time of Edward I. the Irish asked to have the benefit of English subjects conferred upon them; in that of Elizabeth an unhappy distinction between the English and 'the people of Ireland arose which changed the faith of the clergy though not of the people. In the course of the last century and the beginning of the present concessions had been made, the power of legislation, the elective franchise, and the emancipation, but all these boons had been conferred to avoid a civil war, and it was therefore not surprising that concessions thus made should not have reconciled the people of Ireland to the authority of the law, or that they should entertain an opinion that what force had given them before, force might give them now. He now wished to legislate in a better spirit. In considering the state of the Irish elturch, he was obliged to ask what was its utility and object? Its defence in this country was unanswerable, it tended to preserve order, and was agreeable to the majority of the people; but in Ireland the argument did not apply. His lordship then referred to the opinions of Dr. Paley and the pre sent Bishop of Lcuadon, as to the authority and usefulness of an endowed and established church. The noble lord proceeded to make an estimate of annual value of the property of the Irish church, which he said amounted to little less than £BOO,OOO. The question, therefore, was whether this large sum had really served to advance the religious instruction of the people for whose be nefit it was intended? Whether with the increase of that pro perty there had been a corresponding increase in the number of conversions to the protestant religion ? Not long since many of the Irish clergy considered it an advantage to have no pro testants in their benefices, and that they were only members of a great political body. He believed that the whole protestant population in Ireland did not exceed 750,000, of whom 400,000 were within the ecclesiastical province of Armagh. His lord ship then read returns from ten dioceses, showing the relative numbers of members of the established church to the Roman catholies, and also to some parochial returns showing the value of the benefices and the number of protestants and catholics in each of them, to show that the income of £BOO,OOO was given to a very small number of the people, and that the great bulk of them derived uo benefit whatever from the church. There was a time when the English church might have attained a better footing in Ireland, but now it could not be hoped for, attached as the people of that country were to their ancient faith; that by merely building churches and glebe houses, and preaching every Sunday, that any real advances could be made in their conversion. His lordship then adverted to the resistance offered to the payment of tithes at Rathcormac and other places. Looking at such scenes as these he would ask, whether the house could consider that, as a means of spiritualinstruction, the funds of the church should be used for forcing and maintaining its doctrines, and for no other purpose whatever ? What he proposed to do in this case was that there should be instituted such a reform of the church of Ireland as should enable the house to adapt the establishment fur the spiritual instruction of those who belonged to the church, and that there should be no unnecessary addi tions. If this principle were adopted it must g reatly reduce the church establishment of Ireland; he propose d, therefore, that the house should undertake this object, and that it should apply whatever might be received after that reduction to sonie object by which the moral and religious improvement. of the people of Ireland might be advanced, by which their interests ought be considered, and by which they might be led to believe that the fundi which were raised nominally for their benefit were really used for and adapted to their wants. It was with this view, then, he meant to propose the resolution of which he had given notice, which was to this effect, " that the house do resolve it self into a committee of the whole house, in order to consider the present state of the church establishment in Ireland, with the view of applying any surplus of its revenue not required for the general purposes of that church, to the general, moral, and religious instruction of his Majesty's subjects in Ireland, with out reference to their religious distinctions." In proposing this he followed the course taken by the hon. member for Mid dlesex in 1828 with respect to the Roman Catholic claimi. In that case the house was moved to resolve itself into a committee, and the motion was carried by a majority of six. It was moved and carried that it should be scut to the House of Lords; that houee, after a conference, fixed a day for its discussion, and upon the discussion the resolution was lost. Should the house resolvgitselliato a committee upon his motion , and should the resolution be carried in the committee, then he would move- are addreis to the crown embodying that resolution, with a humble entreaty to his Majesty that he would be pleased to enable the house to carry it into effect. This he thought the necessary course to be taken. The measures necessary might be origin ated by a message from the crown. Lord John then referred to the address of Sir Robert Peel to the electors of l'amworth ; that lie was not adverse to "an improved distribUtion of the revenues of the church," calculated to extend its influence. Upon the opinion of the right hon. baronet thus broadly stated, the house should come to some decision and either adopt or re ject the principle. If.the house was determined to confine the revenues of the church to the teaching the doctrines of the esta blished church, that should be declared; but if it was not of that opinion then it certainly came to be of no use that the house should be passing through its different stages a bill for the ap plication of tithes, while on this question it was not known whe ther ministers and the House of Commons were agreed or were at variance. This he thought sufficient to set aside the argu ment that might be drawn from the fact that the report of the Irish church commissioners had not been laid before them. With respect to the purposes to which I.e would apply the sur plus revenues of the Irish church, the use he proposed was general education according to the system adopted by the na tional board in Ireland; he eonsidered that in the present state of Ireland no measure would tend so much to promote harmony as the expenditure . of very large funds for that purpose. From the earliest times a would be found that parliament had wished to improve the condition of Ireland by the means of education. That was the object of the 12th Elizabeth, when diocesan schools were introduced. (Loud cheers, and cries of " Hear.") But after a time it became a great object to introduce a sys t e m of education which would - not interfere with the faith oT any. Having stated his general object, he had to meet some objections which had been urged against such a proposition as that which he called upon the house to affirm. The first was the principle that the property of the church ought noe to be diverted to any but strictly ecclesiastical purposes. Ile should' not enter upon the question whether church pro perty should be considered as private, and therefore, inaliena ble property, or whether it was the property of the state, and therefore, at the disposal of the h h o a u d se s . aid la , p in eo h p i l s e ‘ o ‘ R f e n e g c - - " i'dentified the st a t e o f the c h urc h " f l w a i ntn with the o t h n e have the massincorporated Fre o n t c p h r e a r t: 1 landr operty, of which the st a t e i s no t the prop r i e tor, either for use or dominion, but the g uar di an on ly and the regulator." Now, he did not hold the opinion that this was private property and that they could no more interfere with the revenues of a 'bishop than the estate of an earl. But such was net•tbe doctrine maintained by the right hon. gentle man opposite: TAtey hold that the state might take from one bishop and give toy rector or a curate. Did that, then, bear any resemblance to iv ate property ? Lord Stanley's bill re duced the Irish bish*ics. The noble lord after some general reasonings to shew thae the parliament h avin g alread y treated the prope rty' of the churah as essentially public, and that the stir plus could not be so adrintageously applied as to the purposes ;,;!!" - ;&;1 ; of general education, concluded by saving, they bad now the power of acting free from fear-:free from any compulsion ; there was no fear of foreign war before them, nor of civil ,war in Ireland. It was in their power at length to settle and gain the affections of that country, to silence the question of the re peal of the union, to gain, the tribute of grateful homage from a people so warm-hearted, so eminently brave, so panting to be loyal; while they would have the satisfaction of reflecting that in doing justice tolrelaiid they had contribthed more than by any other measure they could adopt to the future credit and prosperity of the empire, making tier unconquerable by her enemies, and the example of liberality to the rest of the world. (Cheers.) . The question having been put : , Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL could not but complain that up to the time he entered the house he was altogether ignorant of the ssuurse the noble lord intended to pursue on a subject so iin porthut, and he must say such a course was very disadvanta geous, inconvenient, and highly objectionable. He might move the previous question or a counter resolution, but he preferred the more open and manly way of meeting it by a direct nega tive, and trusted that when the house hadheard some arguments which he had to adduce they would be induced to concur with him. He would take the liberty of asking what was the precise nature and scope of the motion'? Was it the settlement of the question which it professed, or was it not brought forward to try the relative strength of parties in that house ? In his judgment the removal of ministers was the real object of the motion, and therefore a motion to the effect that the house had no confidence in them would have been a more consistent and straightforward proceeding than the attempt to do by indirect means that which he had not the boldness to undertake openly. To the noble lord's proposition he must withhold his consent, because lie was not prepared to give his assent to the applica tion of church property to other than protestant church pur poses. By this he would stand or fall. The noble lord might talk as long as he pleased, (hear, hear,) he might refer to ancient history, tell them of proceedings that had taken place, and proceedings that he anticipated, but the gist and effect of the proposition was this, and nothing more—" I desire to take from the property of the church of Ireland, which had nothing more than she required, and give it to the rival catholic esta blishment." (Hear, hear.) The noble lord had charged ministers with a violation of the same principle because they were favourable to a re-distribution of church property. Was there no difference between promoting the original intention of the founders of the established church and alienating its pro perty to purposes quite contrary to that intention, the aggran disement of the Roman catholic church ? On that point rested the whole question. He regretted that a question involving so much religious feeling should have been mixed up with political and party animosity. He (Sir E. Knatchbull) was placed much in the same situation as the noble lord was last year, when Mr. Ward bronglit forward the same question, and when Mr. O'Con nell brought forward a resolution to ,the same effect as that of the noble lord. On that occasion the noble lord opposed the motion of Mr. Ward, and the argument of the noble lord. on that occasion he (Sir E. Knatchbull) might now use. The no ble lord had then said "Two courses had been propesed—the first was to pass a resolution containing a. general opinion on two or three matters of fact and ending by calling on the house to affirm some abstract principles." The noble lord knew not whether there would in fact, be any surplus revenue after pro viding for the wants of the protestant establishment; certainly he was ignorant of the fact last year, for he had suggested a commission of inquiry for the purpose Of ascertaining it. Was he to understand that the commission issued by the crown and sent to Ireland. had made their report to the, noble lord ? If that were not the fact the noble lord had no better ground to rest upon than he had last year. But the noble lord went on to say, "The other course proposed was to have a commission of inquiry; that was, that it was competent t o p arliament to deal with the subject, and reserving to the next session the practical measure to be proposed for remedying the abuses of the Irish church. The first course suggested appeared to him a very bad one, and oue which he entirely dissented from. It would lie exceedingly imprudent, he Abought, in the present state of things, to adopt a general resolution affirming an ab stract principle—(hear, hear,) —instead of proceeding to a prac tical measure." (Cheers.) On that occasion Mr. Spring Rice, in supporting the noble lord's views, asked whether the house was prepared to adopt the Irish mode of legislating first and in quiring afterwards ? (Cheers and laughter.) He hoped that those reasons, so conclusive to the noble lord and his colleagues when in office, would in the exercise of that liberality to which some persons thought themselves so exclusively entitled, induce him (Lord John Russell) to act on the principles he had before advocated, and concur with hi n i (Sir Edward Knatch bull) in opposing the present resolution. (Loud cheering.) What the result of the motion might be it was not for him (Sir E. K.!) to prejudge ; but this he knew, that they (the minis(ers) would do their duty to the crown and the public on those prin ciples se clearly and so unequivocally declared by his right,honl friend Sir Robert Peel, and he should wait with perfect confi dence the . decision of the house on that subject. But he implored the house to consider what was to follow if they adopted this proposition. The noble lord desired the formation of a, new government (Cheers and counter cheers.) Of whom was it, he would ask, to be composed ? (Hear, hear.) Was it to be headed by the noble earl (Grey) who had lately been the Prime Minister of England ? (Hear, hear.) And would his admi nistration include all the talent and character which originally belonged to it ? (Hear, bear.) He would: llPtt say. anything against the entertainment of such a legitimate object: for many of those who were connected with that government lie felt per sonally the greatest respect ; but of what materials did the noble lord expect the new government would be composed ? Why, necessarily of the most discordant and disjointed mate rials which it was possible for the imagination of man to con ceive. (Cheers.) Before the noble lord could hope to work out any practical results from the success of his motion, should it prove successful, it appeared to be a matter of indispensable necessity that he should be prepared to organize a government capable of carrying on the business of the country, and of giving effect to the great change which his proposition involved. He desired to know if the noble lord looked fur support, in carrying such a-scheme for forming a government into-execu tion, to the members of that house who were returnees by certain constituencies in the sister island. If such were the intended course of the noble lord—if he desired to place himself at- the head of such ministerial body, backed by such supporters, it was to be presumed that his recollection must have altogether passed away of the fierce attacks that the late government sustained from the class of members to whom he was alluding. After referring to the support which the noble lord was now receiving from the O'Connell party, and comparing it with the opposition of that party to all the noble lord's measures when in office, Sir Edward proceeded to say that Mr. O'Connell called for a large measure of relief to the people, and that one of his propo sals was the taking off one-half per cent. from the interest of the national debt. That was the important consideration for the house and the country to hear iu mind—there was the ques tion upon which the house and the cuuutry were to witness a reconciliation of mutual differences between the hon. and learned gentleman and the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) He wished to know if the Governor of the Bank of England was in the house ? lie wished,. if possible, to see that great public functionaty in his place, and hear what he had to say to the author of such a proposition, and the newly-found political friends who had coa lesced with him. He should be glad to learn what were the sentiments of the Governor of the Bank of England, with all the responsibilities attaching to his high office of necessity present to his view. With such responsibility, was he prepared to be come the advocate of such doctrines? .(Hear, hear.) But the noble lord seemed to declare himself from the outset an enemy to the principle conveyed by the expression, " rmeasures not men." The noble lord seemed to have nothing to urge against the measures, he never went into them, the whole matter seemed to be something like a dislike to the men as politicians; but even supposing that dislike to allow of no mitigation, surely he might have noticed measures. He might have looked at the tithe bill for Ireland. He might have told the house that which there was every reason to believe would have been nothing more than the fact, that that bill was in the estimation of the country incomparably preferable to the measure on that subject of the. preceding government. With respect to the dissenters' marriage bill the very worst that could be said of it was that it embodied the principles which the noble lord had been unable to reduce to practice, with this further difference, that the mea sure of his right hon. friend gave universal sa ti s f ac tion,. while that of the noble lord was felt to be impracticable. The' same thing might be said of the church reform bill. In conclusion, Sir Edward said, the main feature of the question at issue was the appropriation of church property to other than ecclesiastical and protestant purposes, and the maintenance of the connexion at present subsisting between church and state; and to the ob servations he had already submitted to the house be had but this to add, that he did not forget that there were protestants as well as catholics, and that, unlike the noble lord opposite, he should feel that he did most grievous wrong if he so voted in that house as not to do equal justice to both. (Hear, hear.) Mr. WARD spoke at great length in support of the motion. Sir JAMES GRAHAM felt some difficulty in discussing this question, connected as it was with religious feelings and con, scientious scruples which, while they tended to bind the judg ment, were not applicable to discussions in popular assemblies. The question before the house had been of fatal importance to him (Sir J. G.) as a minister, (a laugh,) it had hurled him from power, and had severed him from some of his nearest and dearest conuexions in political life ; it had blighted some of his earliest friendships. He had carried compromise on the question as far as it could be carried consistently with principle, and he could not carry it further. The_ hon. member (Mr. Ward) had said that this was a question of confidence in the present administra tion. He (Sir J. G.) admitted that it could not be considered without reference to the present crisis, and in that crisis. he would say that no government could exist-unless founded upon the broad basis of au entire agreement with respect to the eista Wished church of Ireland. The support he had given tothe" present government was founded upon the declaration of Sir" Robert Peel, that he would support the protestant religion in England and Ireland. The present was the commencement of a series of attacks on all corporation property, and as a con scientious man he could not support it. 'i he noble lord (John Russell) had said that he was nut unfriendly to the established church; but he would beg to ask whether those who supported him on the present occasion were equally friendly ? 'lo what extent could he _depend upon them t Ho wished to avoid the expression of anything that could give offence to anyone ; but when he found that a motion was made last year to exclude the bishops from their seats in the House of lords—when lie found that that motion was supported by many of those who would no doubt support the motion of his noble friend on this occasion, and amongst others by a member of his majesty's late govern ment—he owned that he could not feel disposed to place much reliance on the friendly dispositions !towards the established church of the supporters of his noble friend on this occasion. He found that the connexion between church and state was to be mooted, that the volun principle was to be mooted, and that they were to be called nto decide whether that would not be a better course than an e 4 ablished church. Changes were also contemplated in the constitution of the House of Lords; and that the bishops were to be expelled from that house—this had been done in a former age. Now let him suppose that all this was brought about again, what might we expect as the result? Had history been written in vain, and were we to derive no lesson from past experience ? He would quote a passage from au his torian—not a religious fanatic, but from' sceptic— a nd what did he state as the result of those changes ? t " Gaiety and w; were roscribed ; human learning despised; freedom of inquiry detested; cant and hypocrisy alone encouraged." Were hon. members prepared for similar results from similar changes in the present day ? But had they led to no other ? History would tell them, that after thirty years of civil war, which had been marked with anarchy and bloodshed, the people finding the evils which had come upon them utterly intoleiable, had made an unconditional surrender of their rights and liberties. and of their church government, into the hands of one man—lied fled for shelter and protection to the throne, and cast themselves under the indulgent mercies Of an exiled monarch. This was a warning which, he hoped, would not be thrown away on the common sense of this great country. (Loud cheers.) After quoting an extract from Mr. II:Illam's " history of the ?diddle Ages," on corporate and private property, to the effect that the legislature might new-mould provided it did not inter fere with existing interests or diVert it from it original pin pose, Sir James said, the church property was granted fig the main tenance and propagation of the protestant religion. (Hear, hear, and some cries of " No, no.") That was its original object, and from that object he would not consenthatt it should be diverted. ( Hear, hear.) When he said this, ki h lin trot be misunderstood as being hostile to those church_ r4fUrms which would go to a redistribution of church property. A s long as it was distributed for purposes strictly protestant, the state, he would admit, had the power (saving the rights of existing in'- THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD. terests) to redistribute it in any manner it might think proper. (Hear, hear.) Now, what were the measures which bad been introduced by Lord Grey's government with respect to church property in Ireland? His noble friend (Lord John Russell) had stated, that tithe property iu Ireland amounted to upwards of 1:800,1100 a-year. 'Ms statement his noble friend took from the calculations of the hon. member for St. Alban's, on which he seemed to rely ; but he (Sir J. Graham) had heard the able and argumentative speech on the subject last year from the right hon. and learned member for the University of Dub lin (Mr. Lefroy)—a speech, by the way, which had yet re mained unanswered, and in which it was, to his mind, most clearly shown that the amount did not exceed £620,000 a-year. A charge had been made ou that property of not less than £70,000 a-year, which had been the, amount of the vestry cess, and which had before been charged on land—a charge equal to an eighth or ninth of the whole amount—but this was not all— a tax had been laid on all benefices varying in amount from £3 to £l5 per cent. What was the principle of that act ? It went to meet the very objection which was one ground of the present motion, that Money was paid for religious duties which were not required It enacted, that where a minister derived a revenue from a living in which there was no protestant popula tion, that living, on becoming vacant, should not be fi lled up. But what was the test of there not being a protestant popula tion ?—one in his opinion the very Lest that could have been selected. It was, that in any living in which divine service had not been performed from the year 1830 to 1833, and in which a vacancy occurred, the ecclesiastical commissioners should suspend a reappointment, and that the revenues of that living should, after deducting the payment of a curate, be ap plied to other protestant purposes. Now what were these ? What, too, was the application of the revenues made by this measure ? Why, the application was to uses strictly protestant. The commissioners had the power to re-appropriate the original revenues of these parishes thus circumstanced, and to destine . those revenges to other parishes. For himself, he must say, that in consenting to this principle he had much strained. his conscience. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The selection of a first point of attack on the church had been, he admitted, judiciously made; the evils arising from the intended appropria tion would soon be extended to the church of England, which it would ultimately destroy. He saw the noblelord the member for Liverpool in his place, but he regretted that the hon. and learned member for Dublin was not present, as he was about to put a case in which both were somewhat interested. It was known, doubtless, to the majority of the house that the corpora tion of Liverpool was a' very wealthy corporation; that the revenues arising from its property and resources were applied to the improvement of the commerce and trade of that port, by the formation of docks, quays, &c., until that body . had almost exhausted the possibility of further improvements in that great and important harbour. It would also be in the recollection of the house, that the hon. and learned member for Dublin was anxious for the construction of a ship canal between Dublin and Kinstown. Undoubtedly the trade of Dublin was connected with'the trade of Liverpool, but what would be thought of a pro position to apply the surplus revenue of the corporation of Liverpool to the formation of the suggested ship canal to Dublin. The hon. members opposite did not contemplate any ver y . great surplus revenue to be available for the principle of appropriation. If they had their own way he believed that £lOO,OOO was the most they expected to ga in; the present proposition, to take from the church, was not to enrich the state—nut that the state might gain but that the church might lose. Such a doctrine as this most completely broke down that great principle (the doc trine of meum at tuum) which was the foundation upon which all property rested, and which it ought to be the object of a govern ment to maintain—a doctrine, which, if once relaxed, would bring any nation from the condition of civilization to a state of barbarism. (Hear, hear.) After livings into some details as to the number and value of church livings in Ireland, Sir James made some observations on the articles of the union._ These, he admitted, were not, exactly, like the laws of the Medes and Persians, but it should be remembered that one of the con tracting parties was the protestant parliament of Ireland. They, at that time, felt their weakness in being surrounded by a dense population of a different creed, were conscious that their religion was that of a small minority iu the country. To strengthen themselves they made it a fundamental article of the agreement, that the united churches of England and Ireland should be for ever maintained. It appeared to his mind that this was the moving consideration to the weaker party upon the very face of the contract. Such being the case, should the Commons of England now, even before many of the parties to that compact had, passed away, ungenerously withdraw from it that main and moving consideration which in his judgment had led to its com pletion, and had induced an independent legislature to enter into it? (Cheers.) After referring to the opinions of Lord Minto and Mr. Pitt, that the security of the established church was not incompatible with the admission of catholics to the en joyment of equal rights as subjects, Sir James continued. The house would do well to remember that the dangers of the change now contemplated would be incurred for a trifling advantage— Finciples ot vital importance would be sacrificed without the slightest hope of producing that peace and harmony which was argued as the result. The noble lord (Lord John Russell) had not named the extent to which he sought to carry it into effect ; but supposing he removed the incumbents from one-fourth of the parishes in Ireland, would the change be satisfactory to the remaining three-fourths, in which the ministers would still reside, where tithes would be still unabolished—in short, where everything would remain in state quo. He woutil suppose further, that in one-fourth of the parishes the new principle was applied, and that the revenues were paid to the board in Dublin, and the parishes left to take their chance of what that board might think fit to award for purposes of education. Would not the inhabit ants of these districts regard the neighbouring parishes in which the ministers still continued to reside, spending their incomes among their flocks, with other feelings than those of envy and jealousy ? Was this a course likely to add to the peace of Ireland? (Hear, hear.) No; if pease was the object' of this'ineasure, its success was indeed hopeless. (Hear.) Peace had hitherto often been the promise which Ireland had made for important changes and concessions made to that country. The right hon baronet then read some extracts from the evi denece of Mr. Shell (member for Tipperary) given before a se lect committee of the House of Commons, in the year 1824-5. That hon. member then 'thought that if catholic emancipation were granted there could not exist anii'man however great his power who could excite the people on any political subject; that there would be no objection to the payment of tithes; nor any opposition offered to the rights of the established church. The right hon. baronet then read a quotation, of which the following is the substance':—" After all the evils which have fallen on this-devoted land, it is a consolation to reflect that the legislative axe is laid at last to the root of the establishment. (Cheers from the ministry.) The pruners of our ecclesiastical establishments have not read the Roman history in vain, when the ten overshadowing plants which spre t d their narcotic and poisonous influence all around them have' been laid low. This is but the prelude to a further and still more enlarged process of extinction: (Cheers repeated.) That, he supposed, was a prophesy respecting the present motion. (Hear, near.) "By every successive reform abuses would be removed, until it is to be 11;ped that not a single vestige of that mighty nuisance will remain." (Cheers repeated.) In this language the rev, prelate spoke of the removal of that national grievance of which the house had already heard so much in a former speech. Sir Jas. Graham next made some sarcastic observations on the union of the O'Connell party with Lord John - Russell, as their declared head, and quoted some passages from O'Counell's letter to Mr. Sharman Crawford, in which he proposed to apply some of the property of the church to'defray all the expenses of dispensaries, infirmaries, hospitals, and asylums, and to multiply the number of these in s tit u t ions un til th e y be came qu it e sufficient for the wants of the sick; that is to say, that church property is to be granted to the landlords of Ireland to enable them to do that which, without confiscation, they are bound to do by the law of humanity, if not by the law of the land—namely, to provide for the relief of their poorer brethren. (Cheers.) After some fur ther observations upon the evidence of Mr. O'Connell, who was also examined before the select committee of 1823-5, Sir James Graham concluded with the following remarks:—lt might be said, that in the line which he was then takin'g he was departing from those genuine Whig principles which he bad embraced from his first entrance into political life, which he had advocated for a great number of y ears , aad to which he trusted and flatter ed himself he was attached. (Some cries of " Oh, oh !" on the opposition benches, soon dmiwned in loud cheers - from the mi nisterial benches.) What were those genuine whig principles? He was speaking in the presence of a noble member of the illus trious house of Russell, famed for its support, not less of the principles of civil freedom than of the principles of the protes tant religion. (Cheers.) Whig . principles, as he understood them, consisted in the bold assertion of the utmost freedom of thought and action in matters of politics and religion that was consistent with the law and constitution of the country. (Cheers.) No death's-head—no cross-bone denunciations against those who ventured to exercise, according to their con science, their civil franchises. (Cries of "Oh I" from the op position, and immense cheering from the ministerial benches.) IsTo prayer of mercy limited to them in heaven, but not to be ex tended them on this side the grave. (Great and general cheer ing.) Genuine whig principles, if he mistook not, consisted not less in the love of civil liberty than in the jealousy of the ca tholic religion, as an engine of political power, when it arrogated to itself a right to ascendancy and claimed to put other religions under its feet, (cheers,) and, above all, he considered genuine whig principles to consist in a warm attachment to the pro testant religion, as by law established. (Great cheenng.) He had but one topic more, and with that he would conclude. He had endeavoured to state to the house some of his feelings upon thin question. He had told them, and he now repeated with the utmost sincerity, that he bad a religious feeling upon it. He (honed. that the property which had been set apart by our.ancestors to maintain and propagate the protestant religion was sacred, and ought to be applied to sacred uses. More than that—he said that those who ministered to the altar ought to )iv by the altar. (Cheer's.) That printiple is high as heaven, and you cannot reach it—it is strong as the Almighty, atid, you cannot overturn it—it is fast as the Eternal, and you cannot unfix it. (Cheers.) It is binding on you as a legislature com posed of christian men, and acting upon christian principles and christian considerations ; a nd, as far as he for one was con cerned, there was no consideration upon earth which would lead him to compromise and destroy it. (The right hon. ba ronet then sat down amidst loud cheering, which lasted some minutes.) • Lord HOWICK they spoke at considerable length, and hoped that his right hon. friend (Sir James Graham) would be as ready to give him (Lord H.) credit for sincerity, although he took a different view of the subject, as he was disposed to give his right hon. friend. His friend (Sir J. G.) had said that the property of the Irish church was given to maintain and propa gate the protestant re l ig i on i n I re l an r. Had it done this? That it had not done so was not a matter of surprise to him (Lord H.) The people of _lreland feel' that it is an insult to them to have a large property vested in their land devoted to the maintenance of a - clergy to Whom they are aliens, and who are naturally indisposed to adopt their creed. The noble lord pro ceeded to make a general review of the speech of Sir James Graham, but his arguments possessed no peculiar features of either novelty or force of expression. On the motion of Mr. Lefroy, the debate was adjourned till to-morrow (this day). The report of supply was brought up and read. The other orders of the day having been disposed of, the Tuesday. ti HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESDAY. The Duke of WELLINGTON stated, that reference having been made by the noble • and learned lord opposite to the execution of a man, by mistake, in Ireland, he had made some inquiries on the subject, the result of which he should now state to the house. The individual in question was tried before Judge Torrens. He was indicted by the name of Savage for the mur der of his wife nine years ago, on account, it was supposed, of jealousy. The murder was committed by the husband ma most barbarous manner. He cat tied the body out on his shoulders, and threw it in the river, and a trace of blood was clearly dis tinguishable from the place where the murder was committed to the river. That the murder was perpetrated by the husband was never denied or questioned. The murderer was never seen in Ireland or England afterwards, excepting, once, about two }eats ago, when he was met on a mountain by the brother of his deceased wife, by mere accident. The brother was horrified at meeting him, and reproached him with the murder. His an swer was, that he was sorry he had not killed more of them. He was never seen afterwards. The individual who suffered, and whose real name was Pyne, was subsequently arrested, under the impression that he was the murderer. Judge Torrens di rected an attorney of the name of Wheeler, and a counsellor named Hazard, to defend the prisoner, and to communicate with him on the subject of his identity; but the prisoner main- n tained a dogged silence, and the fact of identity was the sole question for theconsideration of the jury at large. The pri soner's, identity was sworn to by his two:brothers-in-law, and by another person who was not connected with him. On the other hand, a witness swore " that if he was the man named in the indictment, he was so altered that he did not know him then." Some other individuals were ready to swear to his iden tity, but the learned judge thought that the previous evidence was quite sufficient. The prisoner never brought forward any evidence to show who he really was.. There was not, therefore, the smallest doubt as to the proprie,ty of the conviction, br as to the conduct of those who were cohcerned in the proceedings. This, he believed, was a true statement of the case. (Hear.) There was a paragraph in the letter which he had received of a private nature, but which he would communicate to the noble and learned lord, if he desired it. Lord BROUGHAM said, nothing could be more satisfactory than the explanition of the noble duke, or could more clearly show that nothing had been done rashly or precipitately in this case. It turned ou t, a s he thought it would, that the question submitted to the jury was one of fact, on which they haddecided according to the evidence laid before them. Hie had been on the jury, he must have arrived at the same conclusion. One of the witnesses, it appeared, had said, that if the prisoner were the person named in the indictment, he was very much changed in his appearance. It was very probable that a man who had committed murder nine years before would be con siderably changed;- therefore, it was not surprising that this doubt, when opposed. to positive evidence, did not carry much weight with it. The Earl of RIPON presented a petition from a -lace in Leicestershire against the illicit importation of corn from the Isle of Man. The Earl of MarssYtEl presented petitions from Scotland in favour of the established church in that country. The Earl of ROSEBERY moved that the reports relative to the state of gaols in Scotland, which had been made pursuant to the act of 1822, should be laid on the table.—Ordered. The Bishop of LONDON presented a petition from Lie master bakers of Henley-upon-Thames for the better observance of the Sabbath. CHURCH REFORM. The Marquis of WESTMINSTER presented a petition from a very large and respectable meeting of the vestry of Marylebone, praying for an effectual reform of the abuses of the church esta blishment. The noble marquis said, as the present ministers had set up as reformers, it was to be hoped that they would, ac cede to the wishes of the petitioners, by instituting an inquiry into "the various errors, corruptions, and abuses which time had engendered, or ignorance fostered, in the present state of the established church,' and that they would, "by the removal of the same, increase the stability of the church, the usefulness of the. clergy, and the aatisfaction of :the people." The peti tioners particularly deplored, as fore Most among the crying evils of the present church establishment, those of "pluralities • and non-residence." They Contended, and very justly, that residence where they had cure of souls should bd strictly en joined on the clergy They were anxious that the incomes of the clergy should be to a certain extent equalized; and they "besought their lordships to adopt such regulations and reforms in the distribution of the ecclesiastical revenues as would better apportion the emoluments Of the ministers to the duties which they had to perform." To such a proposition he conceived there could be no reasonable objection. Again,lhe petitioners stated "that they were unfeignedly anxious that the revenues of the deans and chapters, at the termination of existing interests, should be appropriated to the maintenance and repairs of the different churches of the establishment, and after that had been accomplished, to the increase of small livings, or to other bene ficial purposes." In the propriety of pursuing such a course he entirely concurred. The petitioners further proceeded to say, that they would venture to remind their lordships "that the revenues of the church were the property of the state; and as the state had at various times altered their destination, it had always been, and must ever be, its right as much as itsdutyto apply them to any purposes which it might think mosteonducive to the public good and to the moral and intellectual improve ment of the people." To that position he also subscribed. The petitioners finally expressed their regret (and here, as we under stood, the noble marquis dissented from the opinion of the peti tioners) that the right rev. prelates should have seats in the upper house of parliament. They suggested that it would be better for the interests of religion if the right rev. prelates- with drew themselves from a scene of political intrigue, which was quite unbecoming of their sacred character. (Cries of "Oh! oh !" from the ministerial benches.) Lord KENYON said that he happened to be present when the petition which had been presented by the noble marquis was got up, and he begged leave to state to their lordships what had occurred on that occasion, and who were the parties most pro minent in forwarding the objects of the meeting to which the petition was submitted. The noble marquis had stated that.-the petition was - agreed to by a large majority of the vestry of Mary lebone. That vestry consisted of 170 individuals, and the peti tioners amounted ti} 56. That was what the noble marquis, called a large majority: The petitioners complained of the. great abuses io the church: 'But who were those, he would ask, who made that complaint? The petition was moved by an avowed dissenter, an unitarian, who could not be supposed to have any very great reverence for the discipline or doctrines of the established religion, however vehemently he might have ex pressed himself on the subject of the abuses of the church, which, it appeared, he wished to have reformed, for the purpose of benefiting an establishment towards which it was not likely that he entertained any very friendly feeling. The person who seconded the motion had been a clergyman of the church of England. Some years ago he was in holy orders, but he had retired from the establishment and become an unitarian. That individual had abused the established church very much, and he (Lord Kenyon) had felt it to be his duty to remonstrate with him on the line of conduct which he pursued at the meeting. He did not think it proper that the vestry-room of Marylebone should be made a theatre for discussions of this kind ; and find ing that he could not induce the parties assembled to adopt a moderate and respectful tone, he retired. What had happened afterwards he did not know; but he believed that a great deal of abuse was heaped on the established church. When those parties asserted that the property . of the established church be longed to the state, and that it might be used for state purposes (asropinion in which the' noble marquis coincided,) he at once confessed that to such a conclusion he could never come. He believed that 4-sths if not 9-10ths of those wha signed the peti tion were dissenters, and were not friendly to' the church • but they ought not to abuse it merely because they ,held a different opinion; and holding such opinions as they aid with reference to the Christian Teligion, he did not think that their sentiments on a question of this nature were entitled to much respect. Their invariable course was to endeavour to convert the vestry room into an arena of . political discussion, when they treated the 'subject of religion in such a manner as showed that they understood very little of its precepts and doctrines. The petition was laid upon the table. Ou the motion of Lord Ellenborough the Agra government bill went through a committee, and was reported. The bribery witnesses indemnity bill was read a second time. —Adjourned. 'HOUSE OF COMMONS, TUESDAY. The Worcester election committee was ballotted for. Mt. HUTT presented a petition from the shipowners and other inhabitants of Hull, complaining of the Stadt duties and the duties payable to the Heligoland Lighthouse. The Stadt du ties amounted to £1 per ship, and were levied for the King of Hanover on all British vessels (vessels of other nations were exempt) navigating the river Elbe. The petitioners com plained that those duties were levied in a most vexatious man ner. They also complained that British ships alone were obliged to contribute towards defraying the expense of the Heligoland Lighthouse. That lighthouse was erected by the British govern ment in 1810, at an expense of £lO,OOO, and it was of the great est benefit to foreign as well as British vessels, though the for mer had nothing to pay for it. Mr. CARRUTHERS supported the prayer of the petition. Mr. ROBINSON thought it was a serious question how far the King of Hanover bad a right to impose dutieb on British ship owners that were not paid by the shipwoners of Hamburgh. After a few words from Mr. Hume, the petition was ordered to lie on the table. Mr. HuTT presented a petition from the unitarian dissenters of Hull, on the subject of the dissenters' marriage act. They approved of the act generally, but objected to the oath .pro posed to be administered, and to the payment of a fee of seven shillings for registration. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that the bill had been altered, and that the oath clause had been omitted. LEICESTER ELECTION. Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE called the attention of the house to the Leicester election petition. On the motion of the honour able member for North Devonshire on Thursday evening last, the house determined that leave should be given to substi tute the name of "Thomas" for "Samuel" Stokes, as one of the sureties to the petition presented against the return of the sitting member. Now, the house had acted in this manner, not by virtue of a power inherent in them, but accorded by an ex press act of the legislature. He was sure, therefore, that the house would see that unless the provisions of this act were com plied with, they would be assuming an authority to which they had no legal claim. He wished particularly to call the atten tion of the house to the consequences that would flow from their vote of Thursday, because he did not believe that those conse quences could have been in the contemplation of any hon. mem ber who had then been in the majority. The hon. member, after stating the circumstances connected with the case, which have been already before the public, proceeded to read the 7th section of the statute 9 George IV., c. 22, by which a yower was given to the house to change the name of the sureties:—" Provided always, that seven clear days at the least shall intervene between the day on which the names shall have been delivered in and entered in a book kept in the office of the clerk as aforesaid, and the day on which the stiffleientprf the-sureties shall be ex amined as hereinbefore directed: Now, he did not mean to insist specifically on the number of seven, but it was enough that the time allowed by the vote of Thursday for examining into the sufficiency of the sureties was not long enough. There was a clear distinction, however, between the vote of Thtirsday and the motion which he intended to make. He must say that the interpretation of the act on which that decision was wounded was an interpretation of extreme liberality, hut the present question was not one of construction. He stood upon the ground of the simple ,declaration of the law, and from that ground he was sure the house would not wish to recede. It might be argued that there was no infraction of the law in permitting the substitution of the name of Thomas for Samuel, but the con sequences of that substitution would be not so much a benefit to one party as a penal infliction on another. He was far from wishing the house to do anything unprecedented, improper, or gratuitous, hut he wished to deliver the house out of a di lemma. He would not inquire how far the assumption by a separate branch of the lee ' islature of a power to dispense with a law was justifiable. He would not enter into a discussion on the consequences of such a course, on the infiniteness of its re sults, and the insensiblevdegrees by which such assumptions grew too formidable to the constitution, but he should be content to rest on the plain principles of common sense and justice. ( Hear, hear.) It was his intention to move that the order for the consideration of the Leicester petition, on the 14th of ,May next, should be discharged; but as a preliminary motion, he should propose that the special report of the examiners be read. The clerk having read the report, Mr. GLA DSTONE moved that the order of the house for taking into consideration the petition against the return of the sitting members for the county of Leicester on the 14th of May be dis chat ged. Mr. GISEOENE said that though the house did not on some occasions do justice in point of form it did so in matter of justice. The house frequently did what in a court of law would be looked upon as injustice. (" Hear," and laughter.) What he meant was, that the House of Commons did not suffer itself to be hound by technicalities, or by the strict rules of evidence. (Increased laughter.) He was speaking of the general habit of the house. (Laughter continued.) It was well known that this power was frequently exercised by the house in order to effect substantial justice. *There were two parties in the town of Leicester—the corporation, and those who were opposed to it. Mr. Burbage, the crafty agent of that notorious corporation, pretended not to know what Mr. Stokes was meant under the name of Thomas Stokes, hosier, but they had been in constant • collision on election matters fur the last 21 years, and filet e was only one person of that paint in the town. The sufficiency of Mr. Stokes might have been fully ascertained, and,ls the peti ' tioners had not four sufficient sureties, he called qn the house • not to reverse its former decision. ' After a few words from Messrs. Warburton, Roebuck, Glad ! stone and Scarlett, the debate was adjourned to Friday (this • r day.) t +' ~. ,' APRIL 3, 135. INVERNESS-SHIRE ELECTION Mr. PRINGft moved, that in consequence of the death of the petitioning candidate (Mr. M'Leod), in the Inverness-shire elec tion, an additional fortnight be allowed to the-electors to con - Bider the propriety of petitioning against the return. Mr. MURRAY thought this 'a most extraordinary application. Was it to be said, that because a petitioner died, notice was to be sent to the county by that house of the circumstance, and an invitation to some one or other of the electors to come forward with a new petition ? Every person who chose had had an oppdrtunity of petitioning, and the law ought not to be violated by the granting of such an application as the present. Mr. WYNN could not find that there was a single word in the act of parliament that would authorize such an interposition as was now sought for. _ _ The motion was negatived without a division and the order of. the day for considering the petition against the return was discharged. CHURCH OF IRELAND. On the order of the day'being read for the debate to be re sumed on the church of Ireland. Mr. Susit. went into a long explanation of his conduct in answer to the remarks on his evidence before the committee of. 1824-5, upon which Sir James Graham had commented on the previons evening. When lie was a candidate for the county of Louth his earnest entreaty to the tenants on several estates was, that they would not vote against the wishes of their landlords ; he earnestly entreated them not to commit themselves with those - who could exercise so much power over them ; he denounced ,hriberv—he said that evil fortune would attend those who sold 'their political principles. and' accepted a sordid recouipence for. their- independence. In the year 1825 the Irish catholics were willing to accept a provision for their clergy ; how totally different would have been the relations between. • tilis country and Ireland had the great work of emancipation been accomplished on those terms. After making some obser-, catkins of a general nature on the history of the catholic ques tion, the hon. and learned member referred to the settlement of church property in Scotland. Spottiswood, the historian of the Scotch church—that writer, in speaking of the state of the, church as preserving the company and fellowship not only of the godly but of hypocrites (a laugh), the distribution of church property, he said, was fourfold—one for the sustentation of the pastor, one for the elders and clergy, one for the poor, and one for the whole body, of the church, and in addition thereto, for the benefit of the schoOls and the schoolmasters, and the super plus to be bestowed, as we understood, upon education. Here, then, was the doctrine of a protestant writer relating to a pro testant church. He further said, that two sorts of men were to be supported out of the funds of the church—the poor, and the teachers of youth. The other authority to which he desired• to refer was one short act of parliament for abolishing prelacy in Scotland; it declared that prelacy was contrary to the inclina tions of the , people of Scotland, that it should be in all time coming abolished, and such form , of church government substi tuted in its stead as should be agreeableto the wishes and ingsof the ifeople. That ,was the Act. upon which the present form of church government stood in Scotland. Did he desire so much for Ireland? So far from it, he fully remembered that the great mass of Irish property . was in the hands of protestants, and in whatever place there existed a protestant congregation, there did he wish to see a respectable protestant clergyman fixed. If you (said the hon. and learned gentleman) will only be just, be assured that you will find us moderate. The hon. and learned gentleman, in answer to the objection raised to this discussion that the commissioners' report had not been received, said the archiepiscopal see of Armagh was wortlri 2 3,oooa-year, and that he needed no report to convince him to allow that pre late to receive a higher income than the lord chancellor of Ire land. In conclusion he said the conduct of the government of Ireland had been the burying-place of many ministries, and if he did not take care it would prove the grave of this administra tion. (Loud cheers.) Mr. limos- in a speech of great length reviewed the allega tions both of law and filet which hid" been put forward in the course of the debate. In the course of his speech he disproved the assertion-of Lord John Russell, that the revenues of the Irish church amounted to £BOO,OOO. It did not, in point of fact, realise even £500,000. Lord John's annual estimate of it bad each year decreased. It was 'not more than sufficient for its wants. The learned gentleman concluded by saying:—lf the church was to fall, he hoped that before such an event, it would be ascertained that it fell with the good-will of the protestants of England; and that they should, at least, have an opportunity of declaring whether, with their consent, the religion,—the va lue, the blessings, and the comforts of which they had so long enjoyed—a religion which had raised this country to the high station amon,,, ,, st nations which she filled—wheth er th e y would ,submit that this religion should be first taken away from the protestants of Ireland, and eventually destroyed and trampled under foot here by such a faction—such a party as was now united for that purpose in this house? (Hear.) Mr. C. Woon spoke in favour of the motion: He denied that the motion was brought forward for factilas purposes. Colonel DAMER was opposed to the discussion in the absence of the commissioners' report; this was the noble lord's argument last year; remembering this, and bearing in mind what had passed since the meeting of parliament, he could discoier up reason for this hasty attempt to entertain a question of such diffi culty and importance, except that of embarrassing his majesty', government, and finally driving the chancellor of. the ex chequer from the station which, in his judgment, he filled so ably, and with such equal advantage to the country. (Cheers.) He was of opinion that the most effectual way of settling down Ireland would be to create a connexion between the state and the catholic clergy of that country. Were the people of Eng laud only, half as generous to the catholics of Ireland as they had been to the slaves of Jamaica, and their former masters, an income would be provided that would go very far to accom plish that purpose. Holding himself perfectly unpledged on the question, reserving to himself the right of acting on a fu tuie occasion as his judgment might dictate, declining to give an opinion on the merits of the noble lord's motion, he should vote against it. Sir R. IsoLis contended that the arguments in support of this resolution went to the substitution of the church of Rome for that of the protestant establishment. Why was not that proposition boldly avowed, instead of attempting to carry it by degrees—by crippling the Protestant church gradually, instead of crushing it. at once? Alluding to Lord John Russell's decla ration, that he wits friendly to the established church, Sir R. Inglis said he could not understand how any one could enter tain such a feeling, and yet desire to withdraw from the church a portion of its means of subsistence, in the midst of a catholic population. Mr. POULTER, after referring to the reformation in the reign of Edward VI. and to the foundation of the English and Irish churches, thought no lapse of time should deterthem from the redress of national injury. He yielded to no man in his re spect for religion, and nothing would induce him so vote for the motion of thee noble lord but the conscientious conviction that the overgrown and unnaturally excessive church of Ireland had historically obstructed the progress of protestantism in that mis governed and unhappy country. (Cheers.) Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE said that the proposition of the noble lord opposite was founded on the assertion that a surplus existed iu the revenues of the church of Ireland, but that assertion remained unproved. The noble lord, instead of inaliteg an accurate statement of the number of protestants and the total amount of ecclesiastical revenues in Ireland, produced the particular cases of a few parishes, and called on the house, in consequence of his partially selected instances, to give up the great and fundamental principle of a national establishment in Ireland. He required some more clear and definite reasons before he could give his assent to the proposition of the noble lord. His mind was made up on the motion of appropriation as much as that of any gentleman in the house. There was, a. sacredness, according to bis mind, in church property, and yet' he saw a distinction - between church property and private pro' perty. Private property was sacred to persons and church property was sacred to purposes. (Cheers.) Did the reforma tion violate the sacredness of church property ? That sacred ness could not in all cases be strictly maintained; but it was always desirable to keep the property as sacred as circumstances medic! permit. (Hear.) Such was the case at the reformation but would such be the case if the motion of the noble lord opposite were carried? (Hear.) At the time of the reformation the legislature, composed of the representatives of the. country, having changed the established religion, changed„ to the same extent the appropriation of church property. Is the protestants should.ever happen to be again in a minority in that house, he for one avowed his conviction that a return to the ancient appropriation would be the fair and legitimate consequence.. Until that should be .the case—until the legis lative union should be dissolved—until the representatives of the catholics constituted the majority in the house—he for one should raise his humble voice as a protestant against the prin ciple involved in the motion before the house. (Hear, hear.) The charge made against the protestant church in ffeland was, that it was paid for by Roman catholics. Was this the case T Was the tithe paid by the occupier in reality or in appearance only ? Was it not admitted that tithe was part of the surplus profit of land which did not accrue to the cultivator but to the landlord ? (Hear, hear.) In this case the tithe was substanti ally paid by the landlord, and the grievance which existed in Ireland waean apparent and not a real one. (Hear, and cries of " No.") Still it was not the intention of the government to leave that apparent grievance unredressed, for a tithe bill had been introduced having for its very object and purpose to place the payment of tithe in appearance as well as in reality on the landlord. (Hear, hear.) One of the arguments used against the church in Ireland was, that it had not been made effective for the conversion of the people. Now admitting, for the sake of argument, that there had been great abuse, great negligence and corruption in the church establishment of Ire-• laud, had not, he asked, similar abuses prevailed in the political government of that country? (Cheers from the opposition.) What, then, was the remedy proposed in either case? As re garded religious abuses, the Roman catholics cried out " Tak e away the protestant church, aisd give us bark our own church. (Cries of No, no," and "Hear.") He would not consent to treat the present motion—which was plainly initiatory—as a final one. ( Hear, hear.) It was, he was convinced, merely an initiatory motion, which would open the way to a really bound less wood. Measure after measure would be brought forward; expedient after expedient would be resorted to; principle after principle would be changed, until at last the only intelligible conclusion, after the adoption of the present motion, would b e arrived at in the recognition of a Roman catholic establishment . (Cheers, and cries of " No.") The Roman catholics of Ireland called on the house to abolish the present church establishment , because it was abused. ("No; no.") Why, the grievance COil' plained of was, that the Roman catholics were called on t° support the protestant church in Ireland, and what would they gain if a paltry saving of £50,000 or £lOO,OOO was only effected, and the Roman catholics were still called on to support the protestant establishment? (Hear, hear.) What was desired, then, must be to do away with the protestant establishment i& Ireland ? Would the house be prepared to act on the same principle with respect to the political government of Irela nd? Because Ireland had been, as had been asserted, neglected -- because her resources had remained undeveloped—because the character of theepeople, with all their noble capabilities, coo" tinued uncultivated, would the house consent to the dissolutio n of the legislative union ? ( Hear, bear.) When it was CO, sidered that the supposition of the surplus was the basis of tic motion before the house, he thought that the noble lord cra g bound to prove the existence of that surplus before he took 6 step calculated to convulse that house and perhaps the country lie (Mr. Gladstone) would endeavour to inform the house of the amount of the revenue received by the Irish clergy: The hon. gentleman then entered into some details with re s p ec to the revenue of the Irish church, which, he contended, in coi, ) e sequence of the deductions to which it would be subject, 0 out' not exceed £400,000, or, if divided by the number of benefice!! £275 for each benefice. In continuation he said. the Scoteh. church, which was quoted in that house as the beau ideal at, economy, allowed to each clergyman £250 a-year. (Cries o r " Hear," and "No.") He would put it to the house whetle £275 was a high or excessive sum. (Hear.) With refereuFe to the amount of parochial collection, the noble lord himself we ° had drawn his facts, he said, from imperfect sources, stated th e protestant population of Ireland at 750,000; he believed it s° be 1,000,000. (" Oh.") But whose fault was it that m ore ae: curate information was not obtained? (Hear.) Had the ble lord any right to lay the blame at that (the ministerial) si when it should have come from the party with whom be acteo ( Hear.) But taking them at 1,000,000 of persons, if that sir', the number, what would be the result of dividing that - nurnDete; amongst the 1,450 benefices ? Why i it would give 700 soul s d i.. each flock. (Hear.) Wheu it was considered-that these in 13 , viduals lived at a distance from each other, and were not e e ,b cent rated as in England, was the amount of 700 person d a ft , to L benefice so very trifling a number to occupy the care an