The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-03-24 00:00:00

MARCH 2P, 1835. -fightful to disgorge the plunder and pay for the follies of the malcontents. But pay he must, for the present, and during the term of all existing leases. But the question arises—will the people gain any t hing by the transfer of the burthen ? We answer, No. °n the contrary we feel assured that the commutation will lead to more than an equal increase in the rent price of land. It will not do so immediately, for that would be a dangerous experiment; but that it will produce it eventually we have no doubt whatever. For every shil ling that the peasant or farmer saves, in the shape of di rect tithe s levied upon himself, he will, ere lung, be corn- Pelled t o pay two in the shape of rent to his landlord. Ile will not only have to pay the tithes as heretofore, but he will have to pay for the payment of them, just as a man has to pay a banker, at a distance, for paying that Which he cannot conveniently pay himself. The nomi nal relief is in fact an additional burthen. It is an al ternative imposed upon the government by stern neces sity It is the price which demoralization and crime pay for the liberty of Netting law, and reason, and cominon 'ense at defiance. Tithes in Ireland are abolished ; but; t° t►sea homely saying, thlise who have urged theirabo lition have leapt out oI the frying-pan into the fire—and t here we leave them. If Sir ROBERT PEEL continue to pursue his present - Course, lie will earn for himself everlasting renown, and confer upon his Sovereign and his country incalculable' and inestimable benefits. But, as regards Ireland, the tuaster-u ork:has vet to be done. It is within his power. 'Now' s the day, and note's the hour," as BURNS sang of Bannockburn, amid the raging -elements of a moorland storm. The "crowning cottquest" is the devising a well adapted system of poor laws for Ireland. The right ho nourable baronet may carry his, dissenters' bill, his tithe I 'M, his church reform bill, and other valuable measures called fur by the peculiar exigencies of the times ; but if l 'a stop short, without addressing all his intellect and his Power to a scheme for the relief and stipport of the poor of Ireland, he will throw away,the finest geM within . his g r asP, and make sport with , the chance of Undying re ttwit• We .are not of those who can be suspected' of flattering Sir ROBERT PEEL,•RigI the right honourable baronet knows it. We cannot, however, shut qur eyes t o the splendid prosPect which Opens before him; and, Without fear or auction—with no wish but that which . i 3 identified with the honotir and happiness Of our coun trY—we tell him in all sincerity, and we hope with be coming submission;• that he hai the power of doing that. Which British statesmen have unfortunately neglected, a nd which alone can unite Ireland in enduring bonds of k nion with Great Britain. We of course allude' .to a cnnapulsory tai for the maintenance of the aged, the in 6rtb, and the helpless poor of Ireland. We shall not divide logical or philological straws with t he prime minister asto the meaning of the words "aged, i nfirm, and helpless poor." These sort of verbal criti cisins are beneath the`notice'of a man of high talent 'and u nbending patriotism. The meaning is sufficiently de fined and pulpable enough to those who concur in the po licy, or beneficence of the objeet.• •We do not wish to en courage idleness or build asylums fur . the vicious or the depraved. We desire nothing more than to execute th e designs of ch r i s ti an ity, as regar d s Ireland,* and which have hitherto been overlooked; It has • been made a c harge, even by many well. disposed and religious people i n England, that the . protestant church of Ireland has . til a d e no progress in the work of conversion—that she lids hardly kept her position—that she has not penetrated the gloom of popish Oe.nightedness—that she has not Wrestled with the powers of darkness and overthrown the idols of Rome. We admit it. We plead guilty, argumentatively, to the indictment, and we can only do it under reservation, because, being-neither orangemen, nor Irish proteStants, liar Irishmen, we can only speak of that country histori cally,- and as dispassionate, observers. In that capacity . we cannot but ad m it that the protestant church of Ir e land h is made no progress. But we are bound likewise to cuncede that-the Irish church. has not had fair play. The Protestants of Ireland have been left to fight their own h r , a ltics—to fight on _the defensive against the church of without-the aid of those temporal auxiliaries which f al.-a:contributed so largely. to the outrooting of popery l'ince the days of ELIZABETH.; The Irish proteitaiits l'evef received aid from the secular institutions of the sta te , Their weapons have, been purely spiritual.. The Minister of religion had no means of coming into contact the poorer population of his parish or district. if he the opportunity of informing himself of their wants, be had no power or funds out of which he migit have mi nistered to ,their necessities. He had churchwardens without resources, between whom and the poor there W ere no natural alliaities, the one having nothing to give and the other having nothing to receive. Charity being, according to the.catholic faith, the first virtue, protestant i3lll was looked upon as a religion bereft of the graces of th ristianity—as a system founded upon spoliation which had none of the redeeming qualities of generosity— which captivated the rich but hod no allurements fur the 14°0 r —which was a philosophy nicely suited for the WCalthy and the independent, but which acknowledged 4 0 influence derived from the needy, the helpless, or the Miserable. It is with deep regret we confess that such has been Protestantism in Ireland—made so and kept so by the Protestants of England. When the reforMation had 41 ade even a slight progress in England, it was found tlecessary to make a provision for th e p oor . Th e ac t o f 4 12.4.RETH gave us the poor laws. The infirm, the aged, the houseless, the wretched, formerly relieved by the mo nastic institutions of pope.ry, were made freeholders by j olieritauce and by residence upon the resources of the country. The mendicant who knelt at the gate of a Priory fur a loaf of bread was entitled to demand it from t he protestant overseer. It was an act of imperious ne "sBity. What had been alms before, ministering to re demption in the donor, became a freehold right to the Pauper. What heliad begged for in the'lime of HENRY V . 11. and HENRY VIM lie claimed as his due in the tign of aszABETIL The very poorest of our popula ti°4---always the last to recognise a change,'far less a re vt,lution of a religious nature—saw .at once the advan• .rages of protestantism in England. They turned pa the tid e of means and hospitality and charity turned. They Wer e totally incapable of understanding• or appreciating Principles. The poor man's creed is of narrow compass. wafer god is to him a fact or a fiction—a: truth or a li e - -exactly as its assumption o r rejection bears upon his wrnforts, his necessities; or his happiness. Our foie fathers, whose wisdom is derided by certain blockheads, Perfectly UnderstOod this. The ministers of EuzatiF;ra Were better statesmen and :more accomplished Pliers than %vete the tory ministers , of GiEoaoE IV-. tOries acting upon whig principles. They • provided .. fi n the poor —they brought voluntary alms into discredii—. and they completed the protestant reformation.,., The same thing happened in Scotland. Sir Rour.irr PEEL is only doing for Ireland what was done in Scot land some centuries ago. .He is snaking the provision fur the clergyman dependent upon the income of the l andowner, or, in other words, lmismaking the proprietor rand liable to the religious tax which had previously 1 :?•'en imposed upon the tenant. This has for a long Period been the Scotch practice, and it has. worked ad- Wirably well. Bat it was also intimately connected with !' State provision for the poor. In Scotland, every pan- Per of three years' residence has a claim upon his parish, 4 nd the justices of the peace can compel the overseers of the poor to give him an allowance equal in his wants, or 4(ltnit him to the common- fire of the workhouses,, called" in that country " hospitals." This claim also had its rise in the destruction of the monasteries, and the netes, : '!ities identified with the expediency of the reformation. _Both in England and Scotland the change produced a 4steut of national and indispensable, but at the same tittl e of politic, beneficence. In Ireland, no such auxiliaries in the cause of peace and conversion Were provided. Protestantism there was confined to the pulpit—or to chance. It was lofty in its @ b artteter—noble . in its bearing —pure in its principles; hot •it exhibited no securities of an attractive and popu lar nature, calculatad to inspire confidence, or give to t he poor and illiterate peasant an earnest of disinterested be nevolence. He, therefore, as was natural, continued to Adhere to his priest and his beloved idolatry: He I 'ilk judged of the new doAritie by its the protestant churchman to be an intruder and a robber. He saw that the tithe's went to the church, and that no portion of them went to the poor. He found that, con= nected with the church, there was no asylum for the. indigent. He scouted the idea that the minister of our reformed religion was a missionary sent to him. He was a stranger speaking in an almost-unknown tongue. He was, in short, the minister of the Saxons, and there was no sympathy between the new church and the na tive population either of a spiritual, social, o'r of a self preservative nature. There was consequently little or no secession from the old faith, simply because there was no rational inducement.. The peasant saw no attractions in the reformed church sufficiently prepossessing to in duce him to desert the old pastor who had counted his rosary by the bedside of hiS parent, and had adminis tered consolation, and perhaps provided food, for a de solate and afflicted family. But it may be said--,a state provision for the poor has nothing to do with the machinery of a national church. We contend that it has every thing to do with it. The churchwardens and overseers of the poor are practically in the church of England what tile elders are in the church of Scotland. They 'have - the management of the parish funds, and the diStribution of the temporary aids to the poor. . Thelnmates of the workhouse may be said to belong to . the church. • In fact, the church of England is the poor man's church. It is there only where the in firm and the destitute find shelter. There are some sects in England who have few or no poor—why ? Because it is their interest to-have none. Poverty is sometimes caused by, and it frequently is the eause of intemperate habits. The poor of this description are a very numer ous body, and they vein a sense outcasts. They have no asylum, nn resting place, but in the church. - . There are many other reasons why poor laws . should be given to Ireland, and one among the rest is that Eng. land•is at this mement Ileac ily . taxed In -support and trans port the paupers of . I.rlbuacji Tbis-,ts a griei•ance of a very reprehensibie titik'especially as tbe're •is: no reciprocity. -It ''ha's'L been proved before a commit tee of parliamerit that' Irish land owners and ma gistrates have frequently raised a fund for the purpose of defraying the . expense of, a passage by steam to England of shoals of ragged paupers. They are sent here to beg, and they have to be sent back again at our cost. This evil will not be endured much longer. The labourers of England are fast sinking to the low state of the Irish- peasantry, and uuless the land owners of Ireland are compelled to maintain their own poor, some means must be adopted for making them bear the cost of such us are removed from place to place by the parish authorities of England. To conclude, we most earnestly call the attention of Sir ROPERT PEEL to the subject. • . . In the proper place will be. found a report of the trial Of NORMAN WELCH, fursthe-murder of Mr. SOUTHGATE. It is impossible to read the details without coming to the immediate conclusion that. at or about the period when 'the deed Was committed there were dissensions, caused. by real or imaginary grievances, in the subordinate department of the Liverpool Custbms. Whether the unfortunate victim was a violent or overbearing officer does not come out on the trial; and it would be uncha ritable to make inquiry - now ; but one thing is clear enough, Mr. SOUTHGATE.was unpopular with the subor dinate officers, NORMAN WELCH labouied under a con viction that he had been injured, and .being at times insane, as is most_ abundantly proved on the trial, he avenged himself of hit supposed injuries, and murdered his superior officer.. . Bat if the man was insane why was he permitted to hold a responsible situation ? This is a very awkward question. The officer whose duty it was to report his conduct, and effect his removal, on the ground of insanity, swears that he did not believe WELCH to be insane. If he had stopped here, we should have been silent, but the Inspector General, if we can . believe the witnesses, and we have no right to question their, credibility, was re peatedly told that the" man Was mad, and an affidavit, or . sworn evidence to that effect, was made or given before this same Inspector General. lle, however, does not recvlicet tho G4ciy , atiil pit he swears that he never suspected and never believed that WELCH was occa sionally insane. If thelnspeetor general have a me mory so treacherous that he cannot remember facts sworn before him, and which were embodied in a memorial sent to the Board at London, we are bound to presume that he is equally incapable of remembering occurrences of another kind, of retaining an accurate description of acts, and looks, and features, and consequently is incoin petent to pronounce an opinion on the state of mind with which the unfortunate man was afflicted. * Our own opinion is, that WELcit was, at the time he committed the fatal deed, and for some time previcens, labouring- under mental derangement. Some people imagine that spirituous liquors,in a person so afflicted, cause madness. It would be well to inquire whether the madness is , not the proximate cause of excessive ine briety. Much error prevails on. this subject. That which is supposed to be the effect of drunkettness is, we suspect, too frequently . the cause of it. The fever—the helplessness—the torture--and the prostration of mental energy, caused by arty derangement of the nervous sys tem, drive the buffeter to those indulgencies which pro duce excitement, but which, we are inclined to believe, are frequently tl►e preventives of self-destruction. WELCH was in that unlytppy condition. He drank hard—to ex cess—to an un reasndable extent—therefore l►e was mad Although we have .made these observations in justice to all parties, yet do tiot see how any other verdict could have been,retuined, 'how any other result could have been preferred. It is an awful crime in a man to lift his hand against .the life of another.—" He who sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his - blood be shed."— At the same time We:trut that in such an establishment as, the customs of Liverpo9l all measures of .unnecessary severity, calculated to create a belief that injustice has been done by one 'officer towards another, will, in future, be at pitied.. There has been 'too many differences al ready, and many of them of a very senseless kind. The trade of the port is injured b,y,absurd and foolish formali - ties. Laws passed: to-day are rescinded to-morrow. Favourites ate Introduced, and old servants suspended— artd..all this forthe sake ( . )f what 'is' 'called discipline, and under the' pretext of enforcing economy. Under the whig adminiSttioif kunds'Avere thrown away to nave farthings,'nur . filkal financiers- fishing with herrings t o catch sprats. _ • • LONDON L.47'E S 7' NE VS. City, Half-past Soren o'clock, Saturday Evening. Consols have been•very firma In4lay at 9 . 21, alternately, buyers and sellers,. cud the market evinces great Stability. TLe 111 Wing were the closing prices:— Bank Stock. ' shut Brazilian B7; 81 7 3 3 per Cent. Reduced .... shut Chillan .. .... .161 .7Z 3 per Cent. C 01114018.• 92i ii i Columbian ....394 401 ll 404 3% per Cent Consols-..shut Danish 74 3 3 / 4 per Cent. Reducell....shilt- Dutch 5 per Cents....lo3i New 334 per Cents. IUU 1(K) I Do. 2 per Cents India Bonds ..;.. 4.2 . 1. Mexican 4l 451 4 Etchectuer Bills. •- 39 41, 1 Portuguese 931 5. 3 / 4 41 5 1..0ng Annuities shut Spani s h ...... ...65 3 / 4 ;i i 1 Consols fur Act..... 924 j % Russian ' - . shut Beigiau ' 1031 Scrip " ' Bl ii i BANK or ENGLAND.-At at meeting of the bank proprietors, held on Thursday last, a . dividend of £4 per cent . . on the capi tal stock of the company, was ordered to be paid for the half year ending on the sth April next. . . LIVER THEATRE.—Pierce Egan advertises "something new" for his benefit at the "Liver' to-morrow evening. Something l'new implies something good, and the great celebrity of this ancient , slangster justifies the expectation that nothing said or done by hint. can be - positively bad. We are therefore pre pared to expect a full house at the Liver to-morrow - ROYAL AMPHITHEATRE.-The session of this theatre being ahOut to close,• 111 r. Armistead; the ministerial . "leader of the house," takes his benefit this evening. As the house-manager he has been indeCitigable as a purveyor of amuseuieut for the public, and, as chancellor of the exchequer, has exhibited great financial skill in raising the supplies necessary to meet the exigencies of the state over •which he presides.. - The tax he now proposes to levy on the lieges of Liverpool being based on the •' voluotary system," .wr trust will ite popular, and that Mr. Armistead will find by the receipts of the - night that he kiss not miscalculated his- " waysand means." On referring to the bill it will be found that a great variety of entertaiunieuts will be performed. DR. NictioL.—This gentlemen, recently appointed one of the lords of the treasury, iu conaequence of Mr. W. E. Glad atone's acceptance of the office of under-secretary of state t'o the colonial department; has Lieu re-elected for the botuutit Or Cardiff without opposition. 4it# THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD. LANCASTER ASSIZES-. CROWN COURT, Fi This lye.:lg the thy appmnted for the trial of the mirler cases, he court was as usual on such occasions. very much crowded, and amongst the audience, in the gallery and grand jury box, were a number of elegantly dressed females. Mr. Baron l'Altick took his seat on the bench at half-past nine o'clock. • MURDER OF MR. SOUTHGATE. Norman Welch, 56, was indicted. for the wilful murd,u. of William Southgate, by inflicting upon him a wound with a pis tol shot, on the 17th of October last, at Liverpool, whereof he lingered till. the 19th of October, and then expired. He was also arraigned, on the coroner's inquisition, for the said murder. The prisoner pleaded not guilty in a firm and audible tone of voice. The counsel for the prosecution were Messrs. Sergeant AT COLTSIOO4, STARKIE, awl PKKL, fur the prisoner Messrs. COTTINGHAM WIGRASI. . Mr. Sergeant ATCHKRLET stated the case to the jury, ob serving that they were now about to enter into an inquiry im portant to the public on the one hand, and in the last degree important to the prisoner On the other, and he was quite sure he need say no more to bespeak their most patient, careful, and, humane attention to all the circumstauees of the case. The' !node in whicn he meant to discharge the duty which devolved upun him was to confine himself to a simple and unpretending o utline of the case. Mr. Win. Southgate, with whose murder the prisoner was charged, was a person in the employ of the Board of Customs, at. Liverpool, and • who hal formerly been employed in some department of the Excise. He came to Liver pool in 1811 as an officer in the Custmu-house. The prisoner had been for some time before employed in the sane service as a locker, hut he was subsequently reduced to a lower situation, that pf weigher, on account of some misconduct which was im puted to him, and had, of course, a lower salary. Beyond all doubt that circumstance weighed on his mind. and probably led to the commission of the crime with which he . now stood charged. The learned counsel, after describing the leading features of the case as afterwards-detailed iu evidence, said he understood it was to be alleged that the prisoner was a person not responsible for his acts on account of some deusion of the mind under which he was supposed to labour. lie (Mr. Ser geant Atcherley) would not forestal what his learned friend had to offer on that subject, and God forbid that he shOuld do se. The jury would hear any evidence that night be offered for the defence, and in conclusion would have to, say whether .or not they were salisfiedlhat Al the time the pi isoner at the bar cOui• mitied the act. imputed Whim he was labouring under,--tiet the temporary excitement of the liquor, which would be no excuse for the offence,—but udder such -an aberration of intellect as disabled him from distinguishing the difference between right and wrong. ' The following. witnesses were called fur the prosecuticin -• John Pike, examined by Mr. Cot.Tmas..-1 am:ahappoutter .uf weighers iuthi j ferVice of the Customs . at Liverpool. - I have !:noon the PrisOuer,NorMansWelch, for the last-16 or 17 Years. in the. mouthof Ocifiber lait he• fihed the situation . of a third claSs, weigher in t Cuitinii-house. About the mouth of dan.,• OM, the prisonetwas -reduced from the situation of third class bicker to that of third class weigher, and there would of course be a reduction in his salary and wages. I knew, the late Mr.; Wm. Southgate. lie .was,surveyor of warehouses at the Cus tom-house, and bad filled that situation for about two years-pre vious to the tirue when the prisoner was reduced from a locker to a weigher. -On Friday, the 17th of October last, ahuut a quarter past ten o'clock in the morning, I was in the Custom house yard speaking to Mr. Southgate, when the prisoner mile from under the archway leading into the yard and passed close by my right side. Mr. Southgate was standing opposite to me, about a yard and a half distant at the time ; _1 saw him raise hie baud up and step back a pace or two, as if in appreheniiou of some danger, and immediately heard the repoq of - a pistol.. Prisoner was then about a yard from me, to my right Side. On looking towards him.l saw a pistol in hiS right hand, And judg-• ed from the smoke "which I saw coining from the mouth of the pistol that it was that which had been fired- After the report, Mr. Southgate put his right hand to his left breast and said, "I am shot—l ear shot." Pi is.mer threw down the pistol and said, " There V' Ido not remember his saying unythiug else ut the time. Joseph Graham and James M`Gatlie came up after the shot was fired, and with our assistance Mr. S uthgate Walked into the office, where he sat down on a chair, -till the medical men who had been scut for came. 1 remained with him till Mr. - M`Culloch and Dr. Hannay Caine. After they had examined him, Mr. Southgate was conveyed to his own home. I did not set him afterwards alive. I saw his dead body . on the Monday evening following. I had seen the prisoner at about 8 o'clock on the morning of the murder, but did not speak to him, or take any partiewlar notice of him. Abaat six weeks before I saw the prisoner -with several other persons, iu the neighbourhood of the Custom-house. He said to them that he was a robbed man, and that he would make an example of some. one, but did not mention any body in particular: Cross-exanined by Mr. Co iii a II A m.—The prisoner said. this iu the presence of several persons, and said it in a loud tune of voice, so that any body present might hear him. The deceased had no place to sleep at the Custom-house. His resi ,, deuce was about a mile from the Custom-house, but was within the boundaries. It was well known to every person in the Custom-house. The prisoner Caine into the Custom-house yard, on Aridity 'mooing, the 17th October. There were six or eight other persons in the yard besides himself (witness) and Mr. Southgate, and the prisoner might doubtless see them. Prisoner stood quite still, and did not attempt to run away after he had pronounced the - word " there !" Joseph Graham examined by Mr.•Sraakie.—Was a weigher in the service of the .Cust.enhouse at Liverpool. Was in the Customhouse yard about a quarter before ten o'clock in the morning of the 17th of October, and he saw Mr. Southgate stanihug opposite to Mr. Godfrev's office," near the archway leading from the street to the yard, ta.king to Mr. Pike. Saw the prisoner coining front under the archway towards Mr. South gate. Ile stoppe 1 within a yard of Mr. Southgate, elevated his right arm, cud instantly a pistol weut off. Saw the pistol in prisoner's hand after it went off, but not before. Prisoner flung the pistol down at Mr. Southgate's feet. Seized hold ofWelch, and told him he was his prisoner. • \Velch said " It's I thatclid the - deed!- I am a robbed man ?" Had seen the prisoner about nine o'clock that morning, but did not observe anything particular iu his manner. Gave the 'prisoner into charge, aod then assisted Mr. Southgate into the office. Picker( up the pis , toi which prisoner had thrown down, and gave it to a sergeant of thgdock.poliee iiptiteiF Hobert Clough. Cross-examioed lirnr:- . Ctrret ti la A m la urel ba stand rig about three yards - tram the place where Mr. Southgate stood when laisocier tiretl the - pistol. Prisoner did not attempt to move from the spilt-after tiring the pistol, but stood quite still. Did not observe the prisoner's mouth, or take any particular notice of hon.wheu'lle Ira* him first that morning. • Mr. Richard Fisher examined by' Mr. Sergeant Arca LET. —Was a landing4inter at the Customhouse. On Friday 'morning, the 17th of October last, was coining out the laud iug-waiter's office, which opens into the yard, .between ten. un- • notes and a quarter past ten o'clock, aunt was going iu the di rection to the street, when he saw the prisoner going from the street towards the yard. Prisoner had his right hand in his coat - pocket, and appeared to be attempting to get something Out of it. Prisoner passed through the middle arch into the yard ; saw then that he had a pistol in his hand, and immediately after wards saw Mr. Southgate passing across the yard with hiS right hand on his left breast. Cruss-exaMined by-Mr. COTTING El A M.—Had been a landing waiter for ten years; knew the prisoner during that period, but had not known him well till lately, -perhaps two or three years ago. Had not had much opportunity of Judging, of his conduct and character, only i having had him once or twice under his-di rectiou as weighe r n landing goods. Could not say as to his sanity of mind. Had always considered bins -to be a man very much addicted to drinking. • Could not tell whether it Had had any effect upon his Mimi. His behaviour was something strange during the whole period that he (winless) had known him. Re-examined by Mr. Sergeant ATenta LhY.—Generalty saw the prisoner on the quays on those occasions when he thin:grt his conduit strange. -1 he prisoner attended to the diseharge of his duty day by day. Ilis duty as a weigher was to weigh the goods brought into the scales. The weigher called, out the weight, and the landing-waiter entered it. Had known toe pri soner as a weigher for two or three years. By the JUDQL—Cituld not say that the prisoner's mind was affected, but his- behaviour was strange occasionally. Ha ap peared to. be confused in - liquor, but not intoxicated. Never saw anything in prisoner's conduct to induce hiin to believe that prisoner was an insane person. Jam,ies Mlibitfie examined by Mr. CO LT4I AN,—Was a weigher in the Cuatinaspouse, and was.in the Customhouse yard ou the mornieg trf the 17th of- October, when he heard the report of a pistol. sati Mr : SOuthgate stagger at the time the pistol /Seas fired. Went Up i to him, and helped him into the office ; assisted in taking hls elisthesoff; : observed that the coat and waistcoat were perfierated on the left side, and saw a Wound on the left side of the biidy when his clothes were takers off. Had seen the prisoner before that morning, when he signed the "appear ance hook," which the weighers had to sign every morning. Did not observe any thine particular iu his manner. Had never ob served auything very particular in his behaviour. Cross-examined by Mr. CtirliNGFIA M.—Prisouer was mot. in the habit of drinking more than other men. Had seen him un der the influence of' liquor during the hours of duty . . He was sometimes Yerynatrageous when intoxicated.. Re-examined 'by' Mr. CoLtra rs.—Prisoner was very outra- • genus wheti in liquor, but not at other times. By the .JtaidC'---:- , Saw•the prisoner almost every day, and had'• no - reason to suppose-that be was insane. Robert Clungh examined by Mr. ST A 14K 1 R.—Was a serjeaht • in the dock' pollee - tit 'Liverpool. On the 1711 i of October, iu consequence of sinne-iriformation he had received went inyi the • Customhouse-yard;tiaW the prisoner at the bar fliere,'atul took him into ciiiftody , ; toot hitttio the: dock bridewell ; .wben:there:- asked if he had any nrepertv about him; prisoner sai4l.belliill few shillings in has left hand trousers pocket ;'aske'diflitrts',%/t a pistol about hint; prisoner sail "No, I thre* it itoirn iii the, yard when-Pshot the man." Asked if tie knew what Tie had been doing. 2... Prisoner •said " Yes, I have shot a damned kogue, —one that has lobbed-me." Searched the prisoner; and` otind SM. tid. in silver in .his teat hand pocket, eleven copper percus sion caps, and, haughty by a string from his neck, a small - Ilia . - tle or phial. .( Here %ituess produced the article.) Atlcrwatrds received the pistol. from a person named Clrahatn."l'ried of the percussion caps which he had taken from the'prisoner on the pistol. It fitted the cone exactly, and he . snapped it off. The pistol and caps were aftei wards locked up iti the l'own-hall Blidewell. Prisoner appeared in a perfectly sound state of mind at the time. Ile appeared a little excited, Idit• walked. perfectly steady when he got to the BridetVell. Had 11E4 no , ticed his Moile..-01. walking before he got there. The phial found. on the prisoner was afterwards examined by Mr. M'Cullucti, the surgeon. By the 3UPGI4.—The distance from the Customhouse-yard to the 'Dock Bridewell was about thirty or forty yards. Had not as opportunity of observing whether the prisoner walked steadily or not-before getting to the 13ridewell, because he was held ou the road there. - • C ross-exa hied- 1)y Mr. CUTTING A ht he observed, something like ik,ftir about the corners of the prisoner's mouth as if he had been drinking. Prisoner appeared to be a little, affected with liquor when he got him to the Bridewell. It was. about twenty or twenty-live minutes past ten o'clock•in the' f o renoon. The phial was concealed between the prisoner's. waistcoat and his shirt. Mr. Morris Matthew .George Dowling examined by Mr. Sergeant Atchertev.—\Vas superintendent of the Dock Police in Liverpool. On the flat in question' heard what had happened,. and went to the, Customhouse. On his'way there:at the corner of 11 anover and Paradise-street, saw the prisoner at . the bar in the custody of two of the limn constables, who were taking him' . from the Dock Bridewell to the Town-hall Bridewell. Stopped to look at him a 3 he vassed, but did not speak to him. Went tai see Mr. Southgate, and had some discourse with him. Saw a' .wound in his left side which had the appearance of having been made with a ball. Mr. Southgate died on Sunday, the 19th, about the middle of the (lay. On Saturday, the 18th, went . to the Town-hall Bridewell along with Mr. Nrlour,•the superiip:, and saw the prisoner at the bar. and there was no appearance: 4 P e r i l d s• e l t r i' s r ee t ited t lp v e h rfen i v ice ca ' lm, o f i nvin i t . y assets! &oh he and Mr. Parlour cautioned the prisoner that whatever he thought prop,q• to say then might pro , iuced against him on his trier The ohil•ct of their visit to hint w .s to ascertain, if possible, whethstr -there was .a.tiy truth, in a report that other officers of the customs were in danger of their Prisoner said ne kuentof none that were in danger.. Asked him whettutr,it was true limit Aup iniende..t to shoot Mr. Ross, the inspoetorkstrualar. that morning? Prisoner said. he.. had out, and that he 'reset for the sole purpose of shooting Alt. Southgate. Prisoner was askeil if any other persons were 'connected 'With the .sanfortunate affair, or who knew of it. lie at , first _said •• SJ," .M4, : afterwaras toll hint (witness) that another Weigher in - irre W - lout tie named, did know of it, and was with him io, a. pOiic-house near the Customhouse when he Waded the pistol. Sa.d that. he had loaded it -in the pri,4,•andahat the person - whom he named had recoinMended bin strongly not to do it. In reply to other questions put by •liimself and Mr. Parlour prisoner said that he had purcha,ed the pistol at Patrick's shop ; that he had given a guinea for' it ; that rieWas asked by a Man in.the 'shop when . he 'p4rett rsed thepis tol.what he wanted it tor; that he told the man .he wanted it to tire at a mark to decide a wager with a friend ; that he had got six bullets at Patrick's, ant that ott the road from the shop he had thrown five of them away, not in a lump, but one at a time, and that he threw five of them away, because he knew that as he should only have occasion for one it was unnecessar) to - keep 'them. Ile said that after, loading the pisttil he hart thrown the reinainchlr of the powder down the privy. Told prisorter'that he had sat up with Mr. Southgate the night before, and that Me. Southgate said he .had not spoken to him (prisoner) for six mouths.previons4. Asked him if that was true, and prisoner said it.'swas • frold hint there. were very, little h o p es o f M r . Southgate's recovery. Prisoner said " I hope he wont - die ; but, if he, does,he'li go to heaven." . Prisoner afterwards stated that about two years ago Mr. Southgate had reported him in consequence of thirteen pieces of calico having beets missed from "the warehouse of which he was. locker, but that he (prisoner) knew nothing about the loss of them, and that in consequence of that report ;he and his fatuity had lost £2O a-year ;r that after th it report-Mr.-Southgate had. found . him (prisoner) eating his dinner at a warehouse on the head of a cask ; that Mr. Snub - gate told him that that was not the place for aChstoinhonse offi cer to eat his dinner. Prisoner said " Where shall Igo then ?" Mr. Southgate said "Up the entry." To • which prisoner re plied, "If l gO there you'll report me. fur being absent from my duty." Prisoner said that at Other times after, that Mr Southgate, :in corning to places where he was employed, used to say "Where'.. that Welch ? I don't see hint. I suppose he's drunk." Affif that lately he (prisoner) had drunk very hard of spirits, which kept up a constant excitement in his mind. Mr. Baron PARKE.—Did you take notes of the conversation, Mr. Dowling? Witness.—No, my lord, I did not. Exuinitation resumed.—Prisouer became very much agi tated and cried When his family was mentionciL lie was asked if it was trueJloat he had taken leave of his family on the morn ing of Southgate's death, and he said that it was; for he did trot expect to return ku them again. Ile was asked why he had the laadaanat upon hint, and whether he had intended to 'de- Stroy hinieif with it. . He. said • no, he intended to take a few drolis.of it to make hint sleep:. He (witness) and Mr. Parlour were•abo t it to go• away and - leave hitri, when prisoner Stop; tell you toe worst Thing that ever happened to' me in my life. I was quartered some yeats ago in Ireland with the :2d Lancashireniilitia, . I -and souse other privates got into a , sort; I was , very much beaten. I was . some time in "the hospi tit 4 waSltitte ontotaniiniod. SinCe that liquor affects :lie vary muCts. f , ! . .He!(wituess),atid: Mr. Parlour were With Welch atitift threevarters of au 'hour on this u6c.ision. Did uotbb serye.that he,,eXhibited aity - gytriptotirsi:eif hrsanity, •• C ross:exammed by Mr. Corn I.:: IL% not • ginao to see prisoner in consequence oil haying heard that lie nis.GbjeCt was to ascertain' whether any oth e r •(o,t,he customs were in . danger. lied Stopped with prisoner after oh taining au answer to that question, because prisoner scented to be communicative, and he ( witness) was anxious to obtain. all 011.1 information he could. Had not heard that prisoner was in,- sane, but had been told that when iu liquor he was more like ,a madman than anything else. Had seen several insane persons, but had not sullioieut experience or medical knowledge to say that lunatjes, .after accomplishing a particular .purpose,, gene- , rally had.,-calm, settled, or resigned appearance in look ,au4: demeanour., Prisoner did not tell him that au operation had been.perforined in his head in Ireland, or mention Dr , Norris as the surgeon of the regiment to which he belonged. Ditl'not know whether the man that Welch said was with him when he loaded the pi r ;tOiinThe privy was In the court or not. • Believed. he had not come on the part of the prosecution. Mr. Win, Parlour examined by Mr. QoLTMAts.—Was super intendent of the town police at Liverpool. • On Saturday, the 18th Oct.: last, went aoh Mr. Dowling to the place where the prisoner was confined. The account given by Mr. Dowling or ichat transpired at that interview was substantially correct, with the exception of what he had stated with respect to the loading of the-pistol. • . - It was here suggested by counsel that it would hardly be . ne cessary to go,over again a minute detail of what passed at the interview o .with Welch, but .his lordship said, that •as the Ties- WilfWie of such grave Importance both to the prisoner and the publtz, and as people were so:apt to mistake what passed at conversations, espeeta ly When nu note-was taken at-the tune, it would 'tie better to repeat it. • . • Mr. Parlour•then'gave au" account on the 18th Oct. between himself. Mr. Dowling, and the prisoner, tallying in almost . every particular with th a t o f t h e previous witness. The prisoner' appeared to be very calm aud.collected. When he was asked if he hatkiny enm i ty aga i nst M r. R oss, an d if h e h a d intend e d to shoot -him, prisoner answere d "N o ; Mr. Ross is a gentle man, and anyone c a n s p ea k t o hi m , b u t M r . S ou thg a te is a m a n that can never be sp o k en t o . H e i s .a tyra n t ;• he has robbed vie." At - the time prisoner used these words he was very much excited..t When asked the reason of hii enmity to Mr. South gate tie said. " Mr. Southgate his robbed me. About eighteen months ago he got Inc reduced from locker to weigher. He's always at me." Being asked why he had been reduced he said, " 1 was stationed at a wareEouse with other persons: thirteen pieces of calico were missing, and I was blamed for it, though it must have been done by the porters; since then he has been always at me." (Mr Parlour here'repeated what the previous Witness had stated respecting what this priacner had 'said about dining im a cask on one occasion.) Prisoner said, " Mr. South gate told me that was not the place for me to cat u y dinner. I asked him, where must I eat it, then suppose 1 must eat." Asked him whether that was not improper language to use to his superior: officer ? Prisoner said, " Mr. Southgate never speaks to me but to abuse or curse me." Asked prisoner if he had a wife and children? Prisoner said he had, and added, " I have takeu leave of them," appearing to be much affected . at the time. fliere the prisoner exhibited some symptoms of emotion, and raised his hand to his eyes.) On being asked why he had taken leave of his family prisoner said, " I don't expect to see them again." On beir ' r asked if he . hail any ihtentiou of in juring Vt. Ross; he said " No, Mr. Ross is a very good man; it's the other that always oppressed' us;" meaning die people ..empluyed.at the Qvinu-,htiuse. Asked hut whether lie iheaat to dektrov himself with the lau lauuiu, and preS . sed flat 'questien repeatedly upon him. lie said " No; he wanted it. to tate .a little after he was iii prison, to make hint steep; that he putelniied it at two places, and then put it together, fur they would not let him have so much at one." When they, acre going out prisoner said, "Stop, I've got something else to tell you. When 1 was a 'soldier in Ireland I was attacked, with some othiffs, on the road by the country people. I a ati beaten very severely on the head, and w as bad in the hospital fora long time. Ever since then drink has had a great effect upon me." Saw nothing about the prisoner at the time that gave him au idea of his being insane. _ Cro;wesamined by Mr. CirrlNGnasi.—Nothing had oc curred to make him suppose that the prisoner was insane. The a c t the prisoner had dune was one which he supposed no En glishman in his senses would have committed; but there was nothing iuhis conduct otherwise to Lint believe the pri soner insane. had not had much personal experience ut mad men, 'and did not know that they were accustomed to make mysteries .of the merest trifles. Prisoner observed that Mr. Southgate would go to Heaven it he died, after he had said that 1% : irn.li.robbed him. Had au impre s sion ou his ' igraisliein had said that he and th e ot h er so ldi ers h a d their I•tya . n Stl° el l , a suttt prisoner ken from them, but could nut swear so positively. rsoner's object seemed to he t Q m a k e an i mnression on their mind's that he had been very dreadfully injured about the head, and that snoie then liquor had a great effect upon him. 'Persons werti3a::t abutted liquor in Bridewell. At the•time of this con versation prisoner had been six and twenty hours without liquor then.. At the time when h e first saw prisoner (which was rill the Friday, shortly after he had fired the pistol.) pi isoher cerlaibly hat hat liquor. Did nut go to the prisoner it the request of Mr. Brooke, the attorney fo r th e prosecu ti on ,. but of his ova accord, to acquire some iotOrmation respecting reports which 'were in circulation. Did not see Mr. Biooke till after are coroner's inquest. Mr. Dowling was a personal friend of 'the , daceaseil, and went with hint to the pitsuner' at his (wit neSes) request. Mr: Samuel Powell examined by Mr. STARKIii.—WaS a gunsmith, and had succeeded the late Mrs. Patrick in business, under the firm of Williams and Powell. The original sign was stilt up. as the business' Was carried iitt under MrS„.Patrick's exeouturs. On Tuesday evening, the 14th October, prisoner Came to his shop and asked to see some pistols. Showed hint piir of small pocket pistols. Pi isoner sa id th ose wer e n o t the kind he wanted, but some to sit ut at a mark to decide a wager with a friend of his. Then showed him a pair of second-hand French made pistols, and told him the price was 37is. Prisoner saiitlia. only wanted one. T.Ad him. that he cotiarnot let him have tem of them fur less than a guinea. Prisoner offered 1 . 55. tor it, but he refused to take less than a guinea. Prisoner then Marked the pistil with a bit of chalk and went away. • 'Did not say why he marked it. On Thursday, the lith of October. between six and seven o'clock in the evening. prisutter came agsitiiand asked to see the pistol he had marked. - .The pair was; laid on the . counter fur . his inspection, the. shoir-fAiy kiaviit l'uthed off the chalk-mark, and he selected true a: the.; w hiet t he . paid a guinea. He then .asked for bullets 1.4 lit the' pistol,' mid some were east for him, fl e took six of theni,.saying thatlhut would be enough for him. Prisoner asked bins (44- •ness) to load the pistol. :He refused to do so. Also gave the prisoner a 'few copper: caps and a little gunpowder. • him the way to load the pistol. Put on one. id: the ii is at:his request mid - shapped•itta • Whi!st this .was eu a .gentle-* usawmaisiett .eame in, and asked, •prisinier j tYllut.tty was goiliKtu do,with the pisOil,—hiel an, one Pri: ,tiouey hesitattid a short time and then said: -"No4t!he , wat going to Shoot at a mark of decide a wager with a friend rifJ . a . oner then pitt a capon the rune and snapped it aIL •••tie asked hew tat he mm ight take situ With it. ,;roil 11,itri . three charges olgunpowiler in separate •papers, and .offered hint a tittle noire, but he said that *as-AL - tote-. enough. Prisoner 'then went away with the pistol. He appealed at the time to be in a composed stare ot • mind,: Might•have. had liquor, but could not tell whether he .had or not. ..•• • Cross-examined lip Mr. CorrtivGn A st.—Prisoner appeared to be perfectly ignorant of percuSsiOu pistols. Showed him how - trritfanage them. A percussion liistul might be discharged w.dbout a cap by putting a li3tiepewossibu powtteifin'the orifice of.the cone at the top; •ImUne had never seen one-itio . dischui ge d. - Alierson unacquainted with percussion pistols Would have some diffietiliy in ilutug it without t W caps. Re-examined by Mr. STARK prisoner ten or twelve caps beforehe went.awdv, and showed him how to use them. . Thelt.contained peecussion powder:am! fitted on-the cone. Wm, Asp - 1114 8, the shopboy of The late witness, corroborated the Account given by Lim as — to what passed when pristinerpue chased the pistol.. Mr. JtAttleS Quail, was a landing-waiter at the Custoinhouse. On the 15th or October last he was itiseliiirglng a vessel, and tn. iirisoner winked under hint as a weigher. PEI-oiler seemed -very tin well, - and got leave of absence. On the Bit h the prisoner was appointed to work under him. About dinnertime he seemed 14ry-mtrch excited. !le said, " I have been robbed of nearly f.'4ltt, atm Mr. - Siintligate and 1 shall both resign together." Then patising between the words, he said, " My ,iorpose is fixed, .settled,—determined." Prisoner appeared to have held liquor, and seemed much excited, but did not slugger. U%:,4 aide to perform his duty us weigher. or he (witness) would not have 'bad 'him: The vessel was discharged about half-past two 7 , lrelock, and prisoner went away. There was an indescribable • ,Wildness of appearance when he used those words, and he almost seemed to be not of sound mind in reference to Mr. southgate. - • 41r. Baron P/1 a R.—Do you mean generally 1' . WitnesstNo, my lord. on this pal ticular occasion. Mr. Baron PARK E•. —Did you ever observe this indescribable wildness of appearance on oilier uccia.stons? Witness.—Not particularly. . • Cross-examined by Mr. Curt, No it A tif.—Gave prisoner leave iir absent e au acco u nt of the wildness of his appearance. li is wildness was owing to his having been everted.' Other exciting eaust4s might have preduced it. glad heard that prisoner went on the l kilt to purchase a pistol, and a man under his circum-, stanee s tvonld of course Ise excited: Prisoner was certainly in a very high slete of excitement on the Itith t kut he I witness) must draw a dist inetion between excitement and insanity. Stn-: to fir sinter %lieu he used those expressions, " For God's sake ,on't let lice devil get i:ossession of you," ur wuids tantamount. Prisoner had the appearance of a man going mad at the time. Had seen: him frequently before but never took any particular notice. - .Frederick Wilson.—Was a searcher at the Costom-hrmse. On the 16th of October 144 . was on live 'King's Duck quay, at about-two o'clhck iu the ae,ernoon. Mr. Quail was la ndiiigloods and prisoner was his weigher. Heard.prisoinet.say he had been robbed of 'nearly £2O a-year by Mr. Suuthg .te; that..they, Mr. Southgate- and himself, nad been too lung in the service. lie said `• We shall both resign together, my purpose is fixed; — settled,—determined!" tie then folloWed witness two or three 'steps 'and said, "Mr. Southgate and myself have beiM too long in the world together. One of us shall go." Begged him not to speak so rashly, and he said " He hoped they should both go to Heaven together." Prisoner was walking up and down in a very wild manner, and his eyes rolled about when he spoke. From his manner did not think he was then of sound -mind. Prisoner had not finished his work then. Could wit tell - whether he went' to his work again or not. Cross-examined by Mr. CaTTIN G known the pri soner nearly nineteen .tears Only knew from hearsay that be had lately been given Co drinking hard Had not been in the habit of seeing aim freqocutiy. He was sometimes soul (sober) and sometimes not. Had not any opportunityvqf kn iwing what effect liquor had upon him. Had, oily worked with him ftir one day, and that was sixteen months ago. By the JuDGE.—Had had no opporpinity of seeing him fre quently so as to Goan a judgment whether he was SRIIC . or in sane. His observation that the prisoner seemed to be of un sound mind was confined to that particular uccasion Stephen Grundy, a searcher, who ,was presentOn the IGth, when the prisoner was speaking of haVing been rubbed by Mr. 'Southgate, corroborated the testimony of the two last witnesses as to what passed on that occasion. In his cross-examination he stated that the prisoner looked very wild'and seemed not to he of sound mind. in answer to a question from, the Judge, he Said that he had not had any opportunity6f judging whether the prisoner was an insane person or nut. • 'Mr. Alexander Russ.—Was Inspector-General of the 'Cus toms; at Liverpool. Remembered the prisouer's being reduced from a third clitss locker to a third class weigher by oruer of the Board of Customs, made in consequence of a representation from Mr. Southgate, the surveyor of. warehouses. Mr. .9-birth- . gate reported that there had been a robbery of thirteen pieces . • of printed calico, and that a man named Pierce, it weigher, act ing as a locker at the time; was at -first charged with a breath of duty in neglecting to give notice to his superior officer. Pierce exeused himself nu the ground that he was oniv an assistant locker, and that he had namedit to Norman Welch, the esta blished- weigher on the station. : He (witness) therefore.charged. Norman Welch .with a breach of duty its not attending to an I article of his instructions which directed that any Officetobterr ing, a neglect of July on the part of a brother officer, and failing to report it to his superiors, should himself be responsible fo r , that neglect. lie (witness) made. a report to the board in: ion sequence of the representation of-!11r. Southgate, that Norman • Welch had given .no notice of the information communicated:to him by Pierce. A hoard's order, dated Jan. Ist, degraded Welch- from the situatioa- of a third class .locker to that of a third class weigher. his salary as a 'weigher would t akoiqt, 15s.iptir annum less than Iris salary us a iia , ker,. gate had reported that it was_ through the neg,itg , nee Atm !officers that the calicos were sroleu. Had known' . Welch, as a locker, from April, 1827, to 1632. Had not seen him match since his reduction, Hair always found him very_ respectful, very clean, and fit fur his duty. Had' seen nothing in his cots duct that impressed him (witness) with the notion of his being insane. Cross-examined by Mr. CorTtscasm.—Prisoner knew that he would be reported to the board at. London. it W.IS a regular form. His report was founded on the charge sent in •by Mr. Southgate, and was dated the 21st December, 0.3.32, and tll/- 00er for his degradation was dated the Ist of•Jauuaryfoilow itig:: It was his duty, jointly with the collector and controller, to send a sick list to tho board at London: Had never re turned Welch on the sick list as insane. Ilad.trever seen:such a yeturn, either from the collector or controller. Had heard that a lettl-Yr was written about Welch, but had never .seen any • docuineut-to that effect. Ilad not seen any letter repros..tuling Welch as incapatile of performing his duty from weak less , of, intellect •or incapacity from drunkenness. Tht; collector Wits help., In August last put the prisoner off duty for disputing a weight with a landing-waiter, but re-instated hint on•his express ing contrition and promising amendment. This had nothing at all to do with the state of his mind. Re-examil;ed - biTKIr. CourmAN.—This was en the 15th of August last. Prisoner was very respectful in his demeanour. Mr. Elias Arnaud, examined by Mr. SlARKlE.—W4S•col lecto'r of the customs at Liverpool. It was his - province to report mercantile cases to the board. In October, IE4I, Nor man Walsh made a trifling seizure of logwoud, the duty on which was 2s. tid., from a person named Smith, who made a written application for its restoration,- and sent it to him (wit ness) to be transmitted to the hoard. Before writing to London called upon Welch fur his reasons fur seizing the togwood, but ,he declined giving any report, saying that he had had_ trouble enough about it already. Welch appearid very oust inate...,lle (witness) and the coutroller thought the inspector ought to notice such contumaciousness, and sent the messenger to Mr. Ross to tell him that one of his weighers world not report why he had made a seizure. The messenger brought back a verbal answer front Mr. Ross, which was embodied 10 the report - tu the board, which accompanied Mr. S:niith's memorial.. The letter was here read by the witness. It was as Honoured Sir.—The goods alluded to were seized by Nurinan- Welch, a day pay officer, who has been reduced front a- third class locker, for former misconduct, and whoideclines reporting on this matter, either from ignorance or perverseness, amid on referring to the inspector-general .of the out-door department he has signified to us that be considered Welch as labouring under an alienation of intellect at thues."—The letter then went on to describe the goods seized. Examination resumed.—Toil the reports respecting the alleged atienatio3 of intellect from Henry Love, the-official manager. Thought that he repeated by word.of mouth what Mr. Ross was alleged to have said. Did nut see M. Boss him self upon the subject. Cross-examined by Mr. CUTTING II A st.—Love was now dead He was official messenger for ten years. Ho was an intelligent person, rather apt to say more than less. Love was.a man of great integrity, and he (witness) reposed great confidence in him, except that be was apt to say rather too much. Was :re quired to produce the books from the Custoin-liouse. Declined doing so in consequence of orders from the hoard iu Loudon. Love's answer was entirely Nerlial. Love was always about the Custotn-house, and prisoner Might be in the ward the Oinitorn-houwe 4,very.day. Their ilinies were Te ly distinct, but Love might see Welch frtquentli l Re-examined by Mr. STARK l'he hooks required had all of them been brought, teddy for inspeotion.. • It was em.trary to orders to permit persons to hale access to them. never required to produce them before any inagistinte. Mr. Alexander Ross recailed. Had never mad 4ny such communication to the messenger. Mr. Baron PA It K —Had you ever seen anything in the pri soner's conduct to iutluce you to make such a representation? Wituess.—Never. Mr. CurrttiGnAm.—Do I distinctly understand. you to say, that you never made such a reKeseutatiou to the board, ur W any individual %hatever ? - . . Witness.—l never considered him insane. Mr. CUTTING li A M.—Did you not say W Mr. Pike, or to any other permit], Cult you considered him insane'? . Wit ness.—l 001 not au are that I uid. Du you know a person of the name Greethain Was he an oa•er iu the Customs ?-1 - le was. NV:ti that at tile time or the prisoner's degradation as,you call it?--Mr. Greet ham had resigned his office. Do you reco.leet ur riot %,theriter that person made any report to von respecting the Mate of the prisoner's tuiut aboutthe tune of his degradation ?—I do not. , • . . . . If such a circumstance as that had. occurrek.could you have failed to remember it?—Certainly not. . - . II ace von out recollection of tireetham - havitqz done this upon oath ?-11e would nut do it upon uuth unless it 14 eroin the course of an investigation.' • • Do •you recollect that he was a witness on this very investiga tion which led to the prisoner's degradation?-1 do out recut lect.' 1-1 -ere the witnoss referred to one of Inc Cuswiti-hous'e books. I see front this book that Greetham was.a witness in th► charge against l'ierce, which ted to. Weich's degradation. Did not (;ret•thaw nu that occasion— Mr. 6ergeant ATcuk.ut.EY objected to this lino - of examina tion. • • • Mr. COTTINGLIANI.—I put these -questions to :11r. Rosa, be cause if he be mistaken about one fact be. way be mistaken about others.• I merely want to see whether he recollects facts that are entered in that hook. Wit 'less.— I find GrePthain's evidence here. Mr. COTTINGHAM.—iIeve ou no recollection that Greet ham made an :acid eit before you that puss was insane? Witness.—Certaioly not. Mr. Samuel XLCulloch examined by Mr. Sergt..Mekilift LEY. —\Vas a surgeon, residing at Liverpool. On the morning of the I 7th of Oct. last was sent fur to the Customhouse to see Mr. Southgate. Fonittl -him in the t:o.,t md fo yse, apparently in a very exhausted state. hint removed... Fond a guii 7 shot wound on the left side, Hillier the 7tli.rib. Attended M f.South gate Sunday bilaiwing, when he died • iu osisequynce of the injuries he had sustained. Opened the body ititer. his de cease and found the stomach exteusivelv-lacerateil....4xtracted a leaden bullet (ruin the.body. had -msdiilit that that Cvas the' the occasion othis Heath. Examined. the . pilial taken from the prisoner. it contained laudanuni. Cfoss-examined by Mr. CulTlNGliAm.— . There w es frum an ounce to six drams o f laudanumill the Oital. 'Oust quantity would lie. sufficient to kill a peistm tiat accustomed to take laudanum. . • - • ••• Mr. Bacheldor, keeper-of the town bridewell, slated .that flue • prisoner was placed in his :custody abootelevia in the morning of the 11th of October_ last. - the magistrates. ' . --When he canoe hack lie 4ipueiwd, cited—tpuch 'lrritated, and- seemed to : haws been , ffnukrug. Thought so from his geneval appearauve, -mut filmilheisispear ance.of his Inman. Prisoner remained iu itis• custody until, tote 2(ith of October. On the morning of the 'l7th prisinistfsi.-enied very nervous and strongly excites. •Ou the morbitig,nf the. : 4ll he imeatne inure calm. Persuade,i him to take. a little break fast, and supplied him with two volumes. of .the. Guardian. In the afternoon, prisoner applied for Isis spectaclei and a church of England prayer book. After the•aeemidday, prisoner was us composed as he ever saw man. .Prisoner fretted :suck:l:led very much alter his friends had gone, but so 'far aS he (Witness) could judge, did -not show auy symptom of insanity. 1 . Cross-examined by Mr. CorrlNGHAsl.—Prisoner appeared is if be had b ee n drinking when first brought- Into Bridewell. Prisoner had a litt:e ale and wine orcasionady perwiss;un of the magistrates, but nu spirits were allowed.. flail had a great many insane persons in his charge. lied seed . shore of the worst suet some of the slightest. cases. • PrisonerClid not appear al all to be afflicted with insanity, nor labouring under any de lusion. This was,r-be case for the crown. The prisoner. on tieing-called on fur his 4191(.6' said he left that to his counsel. • tae was told that his counsel t nide only ex amine witnesses. and argue points of law,.and that if he - wished io say anyitnng his defence now was the time. '1 he prisoner still aeclined saying anything. The (*claming witnesses were called :-- .Norris, examined by Mr. Cori H.:GNAW—Was a physi cian, but had ceased to practise for about ten years. Was sur gp„,,, ( do, 21 Lancashire militia, in the year 181-145. The re giment was stationed at Linteriek, in Ireland, that year. Re membered there being sin affray between some privates of that • re.Yinient and the people of Limerick. Attended seven privates who wet e brought juto the hail mai v. They appeared to have received bruises and eats about the head. Oistitt , try remem bered doubting whether the wounds were produced by bayonets or sticks. They were generally on the crown of the hew'. According to the best of his remcitibrance, all the men were iu a state of insensibility. Could nut identify the prisimei at the bar as one of Rinse ineu, but fit: unv i•elieveil that he was one of •them. • it was his opinion that if in Cuty one'of those men there was a predispositi,n to mental . detaiigetneet, the injuries then received about the head were staliciuntlY scovere to aggravate that pre.!isposition. Should think that any unr e f Rh peer m , ..), hav ing such predisposition, wound, under the influence :ad' ink or am) , other exulting cause, break out into acts of inailliess- • sk long coarse-of drinking .would of Am if iiopair the (acuities. Every one of those had received sufficient injury about the head in 'coder them subject to inflammation of the bruit), and make them liable to insanity; and a course of drioking, or any other exciting cause, would teed to make them break out ogee sionally into paroxy loos of insanity. Under such circalastances as those he hal mentioned respecting the seven men, drink might either ugravate a predisposition to insanity or Fount* the effects of it. Cross-examined by M:. Sergeant A tTiIERLET.—This was nearly tweuty_ years ago. Had a distinct recollection of the prisoner's features, but Could - ttot . inrairi.y.el.Sneas.that the pi i soner teas one orthnse men. The features orthe - l iiisoter were More distinctly impressed - on his m'ibd —than those- of other sa:diers of the 21 Lancashire whom he' had since met with, and front that circumstance he concluded that the prisoner had on some occasion been under his partiCular- care, and that. he was prlbahly one of those sevcn men, The moment he saw the pri soner he distinctly remembercd his features. All t h e seven men were in a state of when brought in. Had visited the prisoner for the purpose of ascerthining Whether he was a soldier of the 2d Lancashire. ,Was only with hint a few ininuteS. Had nut examined his head. ..I ) risoner slid not ex hibit any fymptoms of insanity at the interview. Had not seen any of the seven men since tlic! disbanding of. the regiment in 1817, but heiieved the prisoner might be one-of them. Re-ekainined by fir. CWITINGiIAM.-ifhe prisoner was very much affected by his'manner.of ti;king td him and shut tears. A - person who fad received such inturies- might.be perfectly rational on ordinary occasions. Generally speaking, and with out reference to habits, as a Man grew-older a preuisposition to inanity would deerease, lint if he were g i ven -in habits of in toxicatton, the older he grew the stronger that predisposition would become. Richard James Greetharn was superintendent of the wood farm department at the Custom-house iu Januarv,'lB2B. Knew Mr. Ross and the prisoner Weich. Remembered prisoner's degradation from a locker to a weigher; but th o ught it t oo k place just at the time that he (witness) sent in his resignation. Was not certain whether it was berme or after his resignation. He ( - witness) was examined upon oath on that occasion before Mr. floss. Mr. Serjeant ATonEitt.EV.Was your examination taken down iti'writing?—Of course it . was. It was not written in a book, but was taken down upon a sheet of paper. Mr. COTTINGHANI, in answer to some objection from counsel, said, I am taking this course, my lord, in order to show the in iidequacY of Mr. Ross's recollection as to certain facts. We were most anxious to have access to the Custom-house books in , which these matters are recorded, hut we. were refused on the gionnil , fhat it was contrary to orders to permit their inspection. 51r. Baron PAnxe.—How can it be of importance to your eliCtit.to'have access totheselnaiks?-, Mr:.Curriso only wanted to see such of these as bote any reference:to the Prisoner's case. .• .Mr. Baton PARKS. —You May look int o th e b oo k s no-w, and theth read. Mr. Se)-geant ATCHERLKY.—Acting under superior orders, of course tht officers of the cos:otos. at Liverpool could not allow the prisoner's attorney to look into • these books; but all the hooks'are'tiere now.. Examination of.Mr..Creetham reS,urnetl.-4t *as - hisiltrty'to . make reports us to the conduct..and, char4eter' of. the - umbers under his charge. ;Had snack year.y or:half-y - 61.1Y reports to'. Boss. and to two former ruspectors-generilf, and - always lass that Welch w.ss.a. regular Mailitarn. jitid re ported shii to Mr. - Roes about ihritm• by:word of mouth, ,and it t- was taken down in writing,. • Hid known the prisort`*•4sineis t • January, 18'28, and for about three years Welt:it:was constantly . with him in the woOd-farni'department. At times Welekkisex what he was doing; but at others he was a violent and uu cmvernable man, and did hot know 'what he was about whether• . tirunk or sober. Prisoner was worse when drunk. Did not consider hint to be 'a man or stiond nhdeista tiding whether drunk or sober. He . (witness) was removed from the wood farm to the warehousing department. about 1831, And the saner was very soon sent lifter him to manage.. Remonstrated . . rith Mr. Southgate for sending him front the wood-farm to the warehouses, syln•re he word get - his'noseihrn the rum puncheon, and could get as much asite to drink. Prisoner was worse in the w; rehouses than ,at . the wrod-farm on account of the drink. He (witiressyreft the servictin-1833. •Since then had only seen the prisobertwiee 'before hi34asapprehentind on this charge. About six or 'elatniOutts previouslyhe4-as riding along the quays when tdirrprisonereanie and 'got bond of his horse's head, and would not let him g o ti l l h e had told his gl tutees. Prisoner w as i n state of high exeitement at the time, and his conduct was that of an insane man. Piisoner had , stopped bun when riding in x similar way once before; but his ganduct was not so violent on that occasion. Had not seen anvilling, of him since until liks apprehension. Cross-examined by Mr. CotTsi A N.—Was a miller now, and lived upon his own property. The reports he made yearly or half-yearly would be taken down in Writing. He supposed to be transmitted to the board. Had atways in those reports de scribed Welch as a madman. Judged that he was mad whilst at the wood-farm, because when ha ought to keep places open he locked them up, sometimes locking carts and horses inside—, from his violent conduct, and threatening to knock mach's brains out with handspikes—from his cutting a man's thumb off is ith a chisel—front fns biting a piece of 'ffesla• out of another man's arm, and from his general reantut:t. BY the Junalf..- Could not say that he knew of any other paitictear acts of violence. They were a common occurrence with him. Bv Mr. CoLTMAN.—Prison)r whilst at the wood-farm had locked arts and horses up in the yard about half a dozen times. lle would come into the office, threw the keys down, and then run away. -Reported prisoner live or six times for various 'offences, and for violent conduct. It was a common practice with him when put out of the way to snatch up a handspike and threaten to knock men's brains out. The men were afraid of their lives. This - happened every Week or month. Had him self seen prisoner running after a man with a handspike. It was a man named Doyle that had his thumb cut elf with a chisel by the prisoner. Did nut see it -done; but was in the next °Rice at the time, and afterwards saw the blood. Did not know the cause of quarrel. It was commonly known that Welch was toad. Occasionally repotted his acts of violence; but had he reported them all he must have had nothing else to do. Noiwithstauding all - these;•itets 'of . .violente prisoner was kept in the service. - There were a great many vagabonds in the cutouts then. Could tint say whether prisoner was insane now or not ; but certainly thought hint so then. By the JUDGE.—Did ‘uu ever know hint to be labouring un der ilelusion? Wituess.—Yes. I will Say that ton. Ibis ideas were wan dering and strange, and he fled the general _symptoms of in sanity. Juona.—Can you give us any instance Or any conversation in which you found tutu tube labouring under delusiOnl Wituess.—l cannoesayl- I speak only of his g4nerafconduct Junnk.—Was his donverotiou incoherent? Witness.— l'es; - 'oh7asionaliv it leas. JUDiii:..—Botit (Luck and super ? itnesS.— Yes. •. Mr. Flutence Egan examined by Mr. Wwnsm.—Had been a landing-Waiter in the'costoms at LiverpoOl fur fifteen y-ars; knew the,prisoner when he filled the situation of locker, lot did nut sce nioc h of him then. 11 ad had aw opporittni-,y of seeing hint daily as a neighbour, but had only been on duty with hint two or three times.- Fiirmed a strong opinion of the stale of bis mind when a locker from a particular cm um/dance.. On the not °nation day of George IV. he (witness) went into the Cus tomhouse yard to maish4ll the men auto something like military order, previous to their joining the procession. The men were very noisy and disorderly. Ile Iwituessi called out for the old so:aiers to step in front ; prisoner appeared amongst. them. Understood that prisoner had been a non-commissioned officer, and placed him as private man in the front rank, Prisoner kora:lied down a man, and his conduct was so violent on that oc casion that he tilil him that if he (witness) had a black hole he .would send hint them. Suspected prisoner had been drinking, he was so very violent and active with his bludgeon. Sent bon away, and threatened to report him. Prisouer knocked down several of the men ; could not tell whether they had given hint any provocation or not. Had known him since he.filled the si tuation of weigher, and fancied him touch worse than when he was a locker. It was a notorious thing amongst the men in the yard, several of whom were in court, that th e f e ll o w w a s mad. i f he slightest provocation roused all his violcuce, and he would pull fares, and mike dreadful noises. Always endeavoured to avoid having the prisoner with hint as a weigher. By the JUDGE.—llid you on any occasion think it your duty to report hint fur madness? cannot say-for madness. The titan has generally perforitied his duty well, but, on the slightest provocation, he would net out of himself. -• • • • By Mr. S rsitKix.—Thonght fium prisoner's appearance that he was a limn given to drinking. Trimmer wad. t .otnetio.e s %cry silent. The men seemed to take delight in rousing his passions, as if these exhibitions of violence were a sort of ;poi t. to them. Had never seen him with a handspike 'or arty weapon btit a bludgeon. Had never seen him strike any person hut once, and that was at the.processiou. Had seen men ruotting away front him, but did not recollect any of their names. Was nut :tame that the prisiner had ever been before the Magistrates for oily act of violence. - Mr. Sts ti you know Mr. Southgate, sir?—l did; Was he a frieurrof yours ?—No. I want to know whether, in a day after this thing happened, (111 used this expression with ;expect to Mr. Sonthgatc,— "'l'here is one daintier! scoundrel gone ?"—I never did.. .. Are you quite eertatu you did nut use this expression?—On my oath I tin! nut. • aid you ever uselhis expressiou,-.—" There is a greater vit.. lain remaining P—l do not teem:cut." •• • • Then you will ni,t sweat that you did tint use it? • Ale you unite sure you never Said-," There... Was a damned villain gone," when speaking of Mr. Southgate reuieniher haying a.conveidatiou wick Mr. Dowling; I understood he was a military man, and I said 1n hint " 40 you Jetiollect th e mutiny at Gibrattat? W.hat.sat you suppose aas the cause of it ?" Dowling s h o ok, lais.be;•ll, and deritied giving :my answer. I then oliServed,' , pe.iliaps...ininrudeutly, that ail the (iffiest... , of the garrisou -at the I,Mie of the-mutiny wey . e under at - test, :toot that the- mutiny was ucca.sioued hy the .sevArity of the commanding- officer. hat was all Ls; lon that occasion, but a few days afterwards undrirstandlog• that I had been misrepre sented to Mr. Ross. the iuspector-genbral, upuu him, and put several questions which.. he. oed-hted answering. Air. Ross asked me how I could reconcile my serf to Make use of words tending to sanction the. act, alluding to the' dreadful Af fair which had occurred. I Said this was a charge.vf a very Se rious innate, and asked tin fur hid authority, which he declined giving. •I then told him very watmly, and in a .ntost soletnit way, that I never did make. such an observation; and that it would he uncharitable and nuchristiaulike to du su, fur though Mr. Southgate was no friend of• mine, nor I of Ins, yet it - mint like myself, the father of a large family, could not so far forget • all feetings of huinimily as 10 make use of such expressions. M r. S TARKII; .—What were those' expressions ?—I. believe I have already atisae Nu, Sir, youhaye not. Do you m ean t o say t h at Mr Rosa , red the question, was speaking to vbu of what you ha-I said respecting the mutiny ut :71: e words itiat a is,iuestion m a t eria ll y affecting others. 1 ntideil to by Mr. lio-s, Gibraltar?—'That hatli ra as tending to sanction the act ?---1 have illrA.N.i.dyanswered the quhstion. Uu you mean that they were in leferCUCe to the mutiny at f", • t ir %Jo a at ?-I , es. What had that tri du with Mr. Southgate's death ?—I should rather be silent. . I want to know whether you did not use these words tO Mr. E ! ,,,,,h u g..,-"Thete id one d—d rascar guile " . it,d soot hgaie ?—I did n0t.... with respect. to the -words,- "There is a greater villain re ,,,„i„ ittg ," you don't tecoliect You will nut swear that you thSt.: thuSe words, or that you did not ?—No. Mr. CUTTINUHAM.—YO heard that this language had beea imputed to you, , auai repoi tell to - Mi. hObS I did. • And you then went to Mr, Ross, and demanded to be con fronted with your accuser ? I did. Do you deny up on your oath that yOu made use of arc h an as I hope fo r merc y , I never 'lld expression in ref erence to M r. Southgate ?—Un my must suiewu oath, and, You say the other men used to provoke the prisonet ? They appearedto take pt easui e rousing his spleen, and then laugh lug at him. '1 hey in;eti toircat him erttel;Y. By the Judge.—Ne7er had ativ connect:on with the pr ironer There w as a pcculiaritv about his count , nat ive, a1.4..1re (wit- Wikted Lo.a.Vo:ll alt.` 4114144.. . Jahn Logerson, • examined by, Mr. COITINGIIAN,--Va, a painter, . Haa known the prisoner for aitnetecu}rats, and for fourteen sears of that period had been his next-fh,r neighbour. 1 " the last seven teats had not cousidcied prisoner is i.c in his ,right reuses. ific last or Lice years prisom r had drnuk [lard, and was Wien in a state 01 intoxication. When in l iquor be was very violent. and hardly seemed to know w hat be vas about. Tnere was . aiwas u sort of wildne,s in his :ooks, esi,e cially when he had On Thursda), toe lti.tr Oct., a Little ,