Northern Times. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-05-05 00:00:00

TOWN COUNCIL. The ordinary monthly meeting of the Town Council was held at eleven o'clock yesterday, in the Town-hall, His Worship the Mayor, William Preston, Esq., presided. Mr. Ald. Dover moved that the proceedings of the health committee, as regarded the laying of the annual rates, b taken previous to any of the other business of the Council The motion was agreed to. The proceedings of the health co following business : —The making. of rate, a water rat of the " A et. 9 ittee corny. rate, a pavin under the provision and 10th 1 " Liverpool Sanitary Am the borough The making ( and a general ra tioned and tt Act:, 18 district f T ivnrr np; of th the township paving rate, )on the water rat provisions of the last the borough consistin tioned acts, upon t general" rate, under the Proviso neon the the township West Dert The making of a sewer T rate, and a general x the last mentioned consistinz of that Torte" of an visio several rat( Mr. Ali upon O. mte, a f the las COM7III ate, an a pay thin th be borough, under the )ol Inrorov neat Act, 1858." T laid by the -------- for the years 18.59-60 ied in tip various Sort of the commi health cofnulit. published in t e passed. The motion was agreedlo wit! The proceedin (which it opposition FINANCE C )IIMITTEE ntained the folio —t,ecom.melidation to increase th William Johnson, district building survey 10s. per w n - rnend. tender of Jo various establishments of the corporation, other than t 'baths and water works. Mr. Stewart moved the adoption of the first resolutiot for the increase of Mr. Johnson' Mr. Gladstone wished to call attention to a subject con nected with the duties of the building surveyor, to which he had directdd the attention of the health committee already, and over which h. control already, they ought to endeavour to ob power. He believed that `Sr. Jol ;hought, if the council had no on was very well tied to the proposed advance; but there was a particular duty in connection with the office that gentlemen held, on which he thought the corporation ought tl take some decided action. He referred to the erection of build ings upon iron pillars. He thought their building staff to a great extent useless, unless it included within tl area of its duties, a close surveillance over all parties vv buildings which had not a solid foundation to rest upon Without alluding to any instances such buildings in all knew that there were same kind were now in course of construction danger to human life which these buildings involved there could be no question whatever, because the small one of those iron pillars might bring the whole structure down by the run, and not only those in the building itself, but those in the building on the opposite side of the street would, in all human probability, pay the forfeit of their st flaw in Mr. Picton thought it would be found, upon examination it act of parliament, the In one of the sections of that a )ported upon that, under the Tough surveyor class of buildings was state ed that - all s iron pillars, in such manner as should be satisfa.Cto surveyor, giviug him, thereby, absolute pow end control tbility of the colninns in x With regard to buildings over the size and to that class of buildings standing upon iron columns general! cases of sit Laing arose not so mueh from - . want of in the eolumni - as fr strength a want of sufa at breadtt ron columns stability in the foundations upon rested. (Hear, hear.) He thought the cases in which __ building came down from the fracture of the iron columns were very rare ; but cases were which buildings settled and sank in conseluence of the columns being placed upon brick-work below, not having sufficient support to sustain the weight placed upon it above. In regard to those foundations, he thought it would be found that the district surveyor had power to act at present. mcommon in Mr. Stewart said, he was old enough to recollect t►ie tic before those iron pillars were introduced at all, and it w thought they had made a great improvement in shop-fror when the old wooden storey-posts were superseded. l knew of cases of danger which had arisen by decay of t foot of a wooden storey-post; but he quite are with Mr. Pi cton, that danger was at present great deal more dependant upon the breadth and close setting of the foundation. With remard new buildings generally, he had often looked at the rash way in which the old beildin He the would enable CI 0 - ght there were powers i n th e buildi at dangeroiii buildin The subject, however, deserved attention, and ho should glad to pay every attention in his power to it. The motion was agreed to. The tender of Mr'. Blundell, for tho supply of coals, w accepted, Mr. Stewart having stated that it was the low( sent in, and that Mr. Blundell had already supplied some the establishments very satisfactorily. Mr. Stewart moved a special Motion to the effect th the Recorder be authorised to appoint an assistant barrist at the coming sessions. Mr. Jeffery scarcer iought this proceeding, month of month, was - in aecoidanceTv He thought it would I should consider whether it was nee Recorder, in order that the additional appointm required, should be made by the proper authority, tl Chancellor. well t the finance c cry to have Mr. Stewart believed the council were at pi ing in accordance with the Act of Parliament The Town-cl Yes, sir lent proe€ The motion was then passed. Mr. Stewart then moved the confirmation of the oenAr proceedings He observed that the council w have learned that the account with the Mersey - had been adjusted, and that a sum of £29.200 the council,. being the balance of the p relating to the expenses of the Birkenhead docks under the management of the corporation, and on accou of which £lOO,OOO had been pald about a month ago. Ti interest upon the £lOO,OOO was paid up to the 28th February, and the present sum included the principal a interest of the remaining balance up t - period, The Mersey Board had intimated their yea. to pay over that amount, a small portion of which w( rent yea accoun some r the long - um the costs of Clerk of at least übject, from with t Northcote I to pay a certain ar of mon upon a certain principle, witho Lnv obiection to be male m f claim on ih finance corn claims betic necessarily i a v corporation. Of eoursr to those t, were offered in question e, and t leasant, and still un ..led qu the cle k of th tion affecting mainly left in the hands of a special out of the control of the finance committee; but- the seer tary of the treasury had chosen to allude to it, as indeed h could not well have separated it from the other subject. II conformity - treasury, the financi commit table of -ith the suggestion of th_ irected the town-clerk to prepa as payable to the clerk of the table of fees was submittecCt o -the finance C;;;ittee m aq their last meeting, and they intended to bring it before the council for confirmation, but it wa s thought a hous there ghtbetter to post pone doing so un til the next meeting,were reasonssuhject should have a little m from y the , ore consideration e committee before they committed themselves to the reduced table.lie therefore moved the he general Proc ee di ngs. confirmation of Mr. Jeffery said, in February last, he called the attention of the chairman of the committee to the omission of the balance-sheet whichnuasnueaell accompanied the financial Mr. Stewart then expressed a hope that he ry) would withdraw t helet i i i o e n he was proposing upon thaL subject, and stated that, happy no sufficient shetelr there reasons to' the contrary, he should be usual balance-sheet. He begged to o r,,, A t i : give the was now any objection to having that balance. Mr. Stewart said, he spoke Co the treofiurer given. upo n tuat statement (Mr. Joffe commenced, and the traffic on Mr. Si this duty, id, although he took the performance 01 it did not strictly lie w th him as chairman of the but, so far as he was concerned, it had one on. He had written a letter on this subject, on Mon -day last, to the town , clerk, who, of course, would lay it The duties of the finance to this subject, after recom ed mending the outlay of £2,000 for that purpose. Advantage before the prop committee ceased, in referent committee, was to was very happy to do wh Tfr Rif such matters, and he Hear, hear ) I he held in his hand a survey of the pro posed improvements in Shaw's-brow, and he wished to ask the chairman of the finance committee whether the e had powers sufficient given them by-the council 3 proceed with the work, or whether it would require a vote of that council to enable them to do so ? He thought the time was precious, as the new Public Library was fast advancing towards completion, and there was as much stone on the ground as would be sufficient to complete the work, and the only thing was the labour. Mr. Stewart said he could not answer the question, for he was . not aware that the subject had yet been brought before the finance committee. He took it that the question of improvement of Shaw's-brow was within the sphere of the finance committee, but no plan of the surveyor had been officially before the council. The Town-clerk said, the alterations and improvements of Shaw's-brow were referred to the finance committee, and I they had power to deal with them, if the sur ter before them ; but he had not done veyor brow; At the r .d I so yet I such questions should be put in the proper • It would he much more advantageous ) the council, as they desired I to have correct information ' It could not he expected that gentlemen way by giyin& , notic on these poi Itions off hand The proceedings, with the ex It was recorded on the proceedings of this committee that a letter had been addressed to the Mayor, by the marinr lepartment of the Board of Trade, and referred to th aittee, inquiring wheth er th e duty of inspecting s. sssels with passengers at this port, which had hitherto been , harged by officers appointed by government, and paid _,:reantile marine fund, could not be executed n.ine constables of the borough.• The committee •-• had made the necessary inquiry upon the ' -, t the duty of inspecting passenger for out of the by th- ted - that the ct, and foi empowered to t he carried it Le com- y the number of passengers which ay such ship ; and that fees were illations of the board, the whole upon them which was s, and, finally, that the bur- es, wh he proceeds re to be paid to 4o:eminent Mr. Clint moved the confirmation of the proceedings words upon a recent occasion when he stated that there was a prevalent opinion out of doors that the whole system of the management of the markets was rotten to the very core. , (Hear, hear.) He had taken down these words, but omitted would take the opportunity of to take down the words which followed, in which he (Mr. matter before the council, which was seldom Steains) added, that he did not stop to enquire whether that d upon without much discussion. He alluded to the night opinion was rightly or wrongly formed. Certain circum . The other evening, in visiting one of these places, stances had come to his knowledge which quite justified accompanied to the outer door by one of the police him in saying, that the opinion which existed abroad was a very intelligent man ; bat without occupying the most justly founded. There was no &edit due to the special time of the council in the matter, he would take that oppor- committee for the discovery of this embezzlement. It was due ;unity of stating that he did think if magistrates, in turn, to their excellent treasurer, and he was happy to have that would visit these houses occasionally, a great deal of the public opportunity of paying a just tribute of admiration :vil might be done away with. It might be a very unpa- to his zeal, his ability, and his energy. (Hear, hear.) A atable proposal, which several of the magistrates might be better treasurer no corporation possessed than the council indisposed to entertain, but he was satisfied that a great had in Mr. Tweedie. (Hear, hear.) It was Mr. Tweedie deal of good would arise from it ; and if there was any real who had discovered the defalcations now in question. (Hear, pretence for the existence of these places of resort, the hear.) The report of the special committee stated that the occasional presence of a magistrate, calling night after night honor, the integrity, and the • sound principle of won those who keep those places, it would have a very Mr. Luya, were unimpeached. It appeared that lesirable sanitary effect. (Hear, hear.) a new system had been commenced by the mar- The proceedings of . the health committee, comprising a kets' committee, so recently as the Ist of March, report on the sanitary rates for 1859-60 were read. 1859 ; and certainly, by that new system, a foundation was Mr. Dover moved the adoption of the report. laid which enabled the treasurer to detect the embezzlement. Mr. Earle : Before you adopt that report, I wish to say a But, previously to that, it would appear that there was no word, not that I may oppose it, but to remark that it does 1 system at all. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Luya had simply to not give us all the information required as to what step I receive the money, and put it into his pocket It was ought to be taken, so as to improve these lodging-houses. quite impossible that the affair could rest there. In the statement I made when I last referred to the sub- E The Mayor : Mr. Steains, I think this is very strong ject, I find I was considerably in error, and that seems ' language to use. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Lnya will be tried to. be a God-send t o the health committee in making so before a prop er tribunal; and I think the remarks you are much of this report. It was only an error in number, making are certainly vory strong. (Hear. hear.) bowever, in those four streets, stated. to be types of many i Mr. Steaks was only speaking of the facts as they came under his knowledge; and he thought it was only due to the gentlemen who had recently resigned their seats, when the council refused to appoint a general superintendent, to admit now that they were quite justified in taking such a course. (Hear, hear.) The chairman of the markets' committee had urged that the case for the present should be allowed to rest there. He gave him notice that he was one of those who thought the case should not rest there. (Hear, hear.) He should make no further remarks for the present. Mr. Jeffery : Is Mr. Luya in custody ? Mr. Luya with having altered the figures before seeing Mr. Johnson. Mr. Anderson said, he did not amree with Mr. Gladstone in stating that, when he was told by the treasurer that Mr. Luya was in default, it was the duty of the chairman then to give Mr. Luya under arrest. Mr. Gladstond denied having made such a statement. What he said was, that the chairman ought to have taken such steps as would have led t 9 his arrest. Mr. Anderton'said, he had misunderstood,Mr..Gladstone, and lir. Johnson would have been acting rather severely, if he had done so, under the circumstances. Mr. Johnson asked the town-clerk whether, on the infor mation he had received from the treasurer, he would have been justified in giving Mr. Luya into custody. The Town d -clerk : He wits not in cuitody yesterday. Mr. Jeffery : The Mayor stated that Mr. Luya will be tried before the proper tribunal. I presume he must be in custody before he is tried. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Beckwith demanded upon what ground the chairman of the markets committee had suspended Mr. Luya when he found that he had robbed the Corporation. (Hear, hear.) The first thing he ought to have done was to give him into custody, instead of which he allowed him to slip through his fingers. (Hear, hear.) The police did not get any information upon the matter for a day or two, until Mr. Luya had had an opportunity of escaping from the hands of justice, in which he would be, if the chairman had only acted . properly. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Steams said, the instant the embezzlement was dis covered, the Town-clerk gave information to Mr. Keogh to arrest Mr. Luya. Mr. 13( upon that point The Town clerk said, unless he bad seen the books he would not have been. Mr. Johnson then asked, supposing the books had been made up by another person, or found out to be correct, when Mr. Luya was in prison, what position would he have been in. - The Town-clerk said, the • only answer he could give to that was, that if any person charges another without reasonable grounds, he was liable to an actien. Mr. Ryley wanted to know, did the treasurer tell Mr. Johnson that he taxed Mr. Luya with defalcations.. with was quite misinformed Mr. Johnson said there was a probability that he said that, and stated also that Mr. Luya denied the charge. Mr. Charles Turner said it was unfair to tax Mr. John son in this way, as he had acted, no doubt, to the best of his judgment on the matter before him. The town-clerk stated to him the next day that he was not aware that Mr. Luya was guilty of any criminal offence, and he certainly could not have sufficient evidence the evening before to give Mr. Luya into custody. The treasurer called on him the evening before, and on the next he asked the town-clerk, who said he was not aware of it, and he (Mr. Turner) thought that, in fairness and charity, no blame ought to be attached to Mr. Johnson. For if it had turned out that there had been no reasonable charge for giving Mr. Luya into custody, the result would have been that the public would have universally condemned him for such a precipitate step. He thought most of them would have hesitated before giving him into custody under They ought not, because Mr. Luya was .Tnhnerm hart The To in-clerk said, at the time Mr. Luya was sus pended, there was no knowledge upon the mind of anybody that Mr. Luya had committed anything beyond the act of not paying over the money he had received at the proper time. Mr. Beckwith : Then I am misinformed upon that point. The Town-clerk : It was noLknoWn until eleven o'clock on last Thursday morning. Mr. Gladstone thought the council had a right to know the whole of the circumstances. The chairman of the mar kets' committee ought to state the reasons which induced him to suspend Mr. Luya. A certain sum of money, which ought to have been paid in, had not been paid. Where was the distinction to be drawn ? What did they wait for ? It surely was unnecessary to look at the books when that palpable. fact was known—the fact that certain collections had been paid into Mr. Luya, and that these collections had been withheld by him. (Hear, hear.) If that fact were a ground for suspension, it was surely, a ground for arrest. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with Mr. Steains and other gen tlemen, that there was a good deal to be said upon this sub ject, and by-and-bye it would be seen who were in the right position and who were in the wrong. Gentlemen had boasted of being eleven years on the committee, and the world would now ascertain how those eleven years had been spent. (Hear, hear.) The corporation had a paid auditor, and if he chose to imperil his reputation by leaving the ac counts of the markets liable to error, he must abide the con sequences. It was not the business of the markets' com mittee to follow up every pound, shilling, and penny !laid out for the purposes of the markets, and to see whether the money was properly expended. No committee in the world could undertake such a duty, unless they made it their sole' occupation. The responsibility rested upon their auditor, and he declared that the auditor had grossly, very grossly, imperilled his reputation by the manner in which the accounts of the markets committee had been dealt with. It would have been satisfactory to the council if, at this moment, nothing had been concealed. If justice was to be done, as he hoped it would be done, nothing which could be said in that room would imperil it. They had a right to know the whole circumstances of the case, and he, could not see why the fact, that money which ought to have been paid had not been paid, was not deemed sufficient to justify the promptest steps being taken. He wished that the council should take the highest possible tone of honour and of conduct in every respect. Here was an occasion which Offered an opportunity of doing what was right and just for the protection of the public interest, which were far beyond any considerations of private individuals whatever. What justification was there for the delay which had taken place ? He once subjected himself to considerable ire in that council for caning in question the conduct of certain officials. He knew what had been said at the time, and he now knew very well' hew perfectly justified he was in his remarks. Seeing that Mr. Luya was not in custody, and from all he could learn was never likely to be, he asked whether it was not unjust to the public to withhold from them the full information, to which they had an absolute right. (Hear, hear.) This was the moment for making a clean breast of all past errors, and letting the public know what had been actually done. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Earle thought Mr. Gladstone a little misunderstood the matter, when he spoke of the- auditor. As he (Mr. Earle) had heard the case, Mr. Luya received certain amounts from .the persons who collected the rents, and when the accounts were brought to the auditor he examined them, put them down in a line, and added them up. The auditor was certainly deficient in one thing—he ought to have put down the money, pounds, shillings, and pence, in writing. (Hear, hear.) So far as that, he thought the auditor was in error, but he thought that was the only error, because there was no gentleman in the room who - might not be more or less robbed by having dishonest persons about him. Mr. Luya appeared to have altered certain figures - 's initials there. The books we- urer, who was a very sharp- the eireumstane, afterwards four been aware of all the circumstances previously. They would see by the event. The town-clerk did not order the arrest of Mr. Luya on the viva voce state ment of the treasurer, and not until after he had examined the books. The Town-clerk said, he went over the books himself to see whether a criminal offence had been committed, and when he did examine the books he came to the conclusion that a felony had been committed. That was eleven o'clock on the Thursday morning, and he gave instructions im mediately to the head of the police to have Mr. Luya arrested. He took the responsibility on, himself and did not wait till three o'clock when the committee met. Mr. Bennett thought, Mr. Johnson did everything the council should desire. Mr. Johnson had not an opportunity of going through the books. Mr. Jeffery said, Mr. Alderman Bennett and Mr. Turner appeared altogether to justify the 'course which had been pursued, in ignoring the deputy law-clerks. They had two deputy town-clerks when the town- c l er k was no t in town. When the treasurer had discovered this defalcation, if Mr. Johnson had gone to Mr. M'Gowan, or Mr. Walter, some steps could have been taken there and then that were deferred till the next day. The great irregularity, there fore, had arisen from ignoring the existence of the deputy town-clerks. That was a dereliction, and he should have considered himself culpable if a mutter came before him, and he ignored the existence of the deputy town-clerk, simply because the town-clerk was not in town. Mr. Johnson then moved the temporary appointment of Mr. Hutchinson, as superintendant of St. John's-market. The motion was confirmed. Mr. Robertson asked what provision was made for St. James's-market, while Mr. Hutchinson was superintending St. John's-market. Mr. Johnson said both. Mr: Hutchinson would•superintend Mr. Gladstone said, that very natural question only proved that a general superintendent was the person to manage the markets. Mr. Johnson said, in accordance with a notice of motion for the filling up of the vacancies in the markets' com mitte, he would move that Mr. Houghton be appointed. Mr. Ridley said that, previous to this confirmation, he begged to tell the council that ho had purposed to move an amendment, to the effect that these vacancies should not only be filled up, but that the committee should be 'entirely re-orga'nised. (Hear, hear.) He had sundry good reasons for inducing him to think that that would be the best course to be pursued. However, he had changed his mind on that point, alth o u g h h e thought, in justice to the corporation, he ought to make that amendment. ("Go on, go on.") The great consideration was, that there was no harmony iu the committee. It had not pulled together, and there had been a great want of cordial feeling, which was desirable in every committee of that corporation. Soon after the formation of that'committee, it was thought desirable to appoint a sub-committee, to investigate the mode of collecting rents, and of the general management o f the markets, and report thereon. That special committee met over and over again, and, without fear of contradiction, he would say there was not a suggestion made by that committee, that was fairly and cordially met by the com mittee. leaving the audit brought to the t sighted man; and who detected the error_ Mr. Job thought, if Mr. Luya was suspended, he ought to have been taken into custody. Mr. J. R. Jeffery thought the auditor ought not, in such cases, to hand back the accounts to the individual who had brought them, but send them straight t o th e t reasurer . Th e individual should not finger the accounts again after he had delivered them into the auditor's hands at all. Mr. Johnson said, on Wednesday last, at four o'clock in the afternoon, the Treasurer came up to his place of busi ness, and stated to him that circumstances rendered it necessary for him to report that he was afraid there was something wrong in Mr. Luya's accounts, and that he had had some difficulty in getting Mr. Luya to pay over his cash as regularly as he ought to have done, for the last week or two. He stated that he had sent for Mr. Luya that day to balance his cash, and Mr. Luya brought his books in such a state as to lead him to suspect that some alteration of the figures had been made. The treasurer thought it was necessary that he (Mr. Johnson) should take some stens. He stated that he had himself endeavoured to con sult the town-clerk, but that gentleman was in London, and he thought some steps should be taken before the close of the evening. He (Mr. Johnson) consulted the treasurer as to the course he ought to take, and the treasurer thought it would be well that Mr. Luya should be suspended, until the subject could be brought before the committee. He Mr. Jeffery: ..t3y whom ? Mr. Beckwith: By the chairman (Laughter and cries of order.) Mr. Ridley said, whenever a suggestion was made, it was either obstructed, or met in such a way as was - - equal to an obstruction. There was no heart in the unanimity of the committee. He was quite of opinion that the revenue of these markets could be very hear) --and there was no such unanimity in the committee as to secure that. He con- greatly inereaserl fessed he'felt, and when he expressed his opinion - in reference to the committee, he must express his opinion of Mr. Johnson as a gentleman; but with regard to the committee, he (Mr. Ridley) and Mr. Johnson did not agree. Mr. Johnson might be the wiser man, as he was an older man than any other member. For his part, he was quite a young member of the eommittee:but he put his shoulder to the wheel ; but, at the same time, he never was met on any suggestion as he should have been. About three-fourths of that committee were of one mind. On one particular occasion, there was a serious complaint made against:the superintendent of St. John's market. The charges were clearly proved, and he (Mr. Luya) fully admitted them. A strong resolution was passed condemnatory of Mr. Luya's conduct. The chair man did not agree with that, however; he was bound to yield. At tile next meeting they had the honour of the gentlemen of the press ; there was previously no inducement to make a long speech, but some members thought the reporters ought to be admitted. On that occa sion, when the minute book was presented to the chairman for signature, Mr. Johnson said he was glad of the oppor tunity of explaining matters, and said he thought the com mittee were a great deal too severe in the resolution they had come to. He (Mr. Ridley) enquired what was the reason of this, and he was told that Mr. Luya was a man of very great influence over the tenants of the markets, who had nearly all votes in Lime-street Ward, and had a great deal of interest in that quarter. Mr. Ridley then mentioned the conduct of the chairman at the last meeting of the commit tee, when he (Mr. Ridley) proposed to send back an account in which there was a mistake of £lO made by Mr. Luya. He (Mr. Ridley) objected to Mr. Luya being called in to correct the account ; but when he turned round to speak to a gentleman at the window, the chairman had Mr. Luya bronght in, and got him to correct the bill. He thought that was another act of leniency towards Mr. Luya. Con sidering all these matters, he thought the best course would be to re-organise the committee. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Steains thonght, after the statement of Mr. Ridley, they ought, in justice to the council and to Mr. Johnson, re-organise the committee. He gathered, from what Mr. Ridley said, that the committee had been used as political tools; and, without the slightest disrespect towards Mr. Johnson, he could not help remembering that Mr. Johnson was a member for Lime-street Ward. He moved that the committee be re-organised. (Mr. Johnson) went at once - to the market to look for Mr. Luya, but Mr. Luya was not there; and he therefore wrote him a note, stating that he must stand suspended, in conse quence of irregularities which had taken place, until the subject could be brought before the markets' committee. He went next day to the town-clerk, who had, however, before his arrival, taken action by putting the affair in the hands of the police, and directing them to arrest Mr. Luya. He (Mr. Johnson) afterwards called a meeting of the committee at three o'clock in the afternoon, and there the resolution was paased which was now upon the books. The old system was to have quarterly balances of the books, but under the new system the balances took place once a week. If the balances had still remained quarterly, Mr. Luya might possibly have managed, out of his quarter's salary, which was falling due, to recoup what was deficient in the account. Mr. Gladstone had made allusion to gentlemen who boasted of being eleven years in the council. He (Mr. Johnson) presumed that that allusion referred to hira- Mr. Gladstone : No; it was not to you I referred. Mr. Johnson said he found a certain system established when he first came into the committee, and the same system was continued. He had nothing to do with the keeping of the books. He always thought it was the business of the auditor to see that all the money paid in was entered in the books, and that it was paid to the treasurer. It had not been, as far as he knew, through any neglect upon the part of the committee that the irregularities had occurred. Mr. Shiel asked what the amount of the deficiencies were ? Mr. Johnson : So far as we have ascertained, abOut £lOO. Mr. Shiel: Then he could not have recouped that amount out of his quarter's salary ? Mr. Stitt asked if the Town-clerk possessed any further information, beyond that known to the chairman of the committee, at the time he ordered the arrest of Mr. Luya ? The Town-clerk : Yes ; when I left for London on Tues day afternoon there was no evidence of an y cr i m i na l o ff ence having been committed. It was not until Thursday morn ing when I went over the books that I found there was reason to believe a criminal offence had been committed. If I had been here, and had had the books before me the pre vious afternoon, should have arrived at the same conclusion as upon Thursday morning; but the treasurer was not aware of it at the time. The motion was seconded by Mr. Beckwith. Mr. Charles Turner thought it was a most unfair thing to make an attack on a chairman of a committee in this way, without any notice whatever. If this amendment were carried, it would be a vote of censure on Mr. Johnson, and they ought not to do that without more mature con sideration. Mr.ley contended that they were there solely for the purpose of doing the best for the good of the estate, and nobody had made charges against Mr. Johnson. Mr. Turner : It is tantamonnt. Mr. Jeffery : Perfectly right. I Mr. Gladstone asked why Mr. Johnson did not consult Mr. M'Gowan, who was the person to advise in the absence of the Town-clerk ? (Hear, hear.) Mr. Johnson said it did not occur to him that it was necessary. The treasurer did not lay the information before him in such a light as to lead him to believe it was necessary to do more than to suspend Mr. Luya, until the town-clerk had returned home and the opinion of the committee taken. Mr. Bowring asked whether, at the time Mr. Tweedie saw Mr. Johnson. upon .the subject, the books altered, as they were how altered, ware mit before him. Mr. Johnson : Certainly not. Mr. Sheil said' he' understood thai the `treasurer had taxed Mr. Ryley - said, he made iio charges. He thought it was tantamount to a want of judgment. Mr. Mellor said he agreed with what fell from Mr. Turner. He thought the council had been too severe. Mr. Graves suggested that the matter be postponed until next month, when it would be taken up in a more calm and impartial spirit, and the result would be far more satis factory_ factory. _ _ _ Mr. Earle said he just rose to move what had been sug gested by Mr. Graves. It was Plain that there was a set against Mr. Johnson. Nobody could be blind to that, and he had no doubt that gentlemen, wishing reforms, had met with opposition. Mr. Bennett made some remarks on behalf of Mr. John son ; after which Mr. Sheil contended, in opposition to Mr. Chas. Turner, that they should not let their feelings have any weight ill this matter, if so, they were not fit to hold their offices. In conclusion, he said the council would not be doing their duty if they allowed Mr. Johnson to nominate a committee' Mr. Johnson was totally unfit to direct a committee having the charge of so large a part of the property of the corPe_: ration. The revenue derived from it was much below Aril" it ought to be, and the public did not derive that accome" dation which they ought to do. Mr. Avison said it would be dangerous to establish such a precedent as that proposed by the amendment. Mr. Parker said, at the last council meeting, Mr. shell endeavoured to throw a mantle over Mr. Luya in a peculiar Irish way. (Laughter.) If Mr. Luya had been a Tory be would have been got rid of long before. Mr. Tvrer, believing that the object was rather to teak ° , an attack upon Mr. Jellison than to serve the interests e' the corporation, 'hoped the council would proceed to fill uP the vacancies. Mr. Bowring contended that, the chairman had more influence than other members—that he was, in fact, the executive of the committee, and instanced the fact, that an order was made in November last, that certain measu res should be taken for the destruction of meat seized bi the officers as unfit for human food, which order it ,„1 found last February, had never been carried out. Col water had been thrown upon every movement made 1-v the committee, and the whole action of the committee had been entirely stultified and nullified by its executive. Mr. 'Vernon, in tremendously energetic style and lang,uag e opposed the amendment. Mr. Yohnson said the charge made against him was Wc ; contemptible to reply to. Seeing that he bad been reture id for Lime-street ward four times without opposition, he d net see how he could have made use of the markets for political purposes. (Hear, hear.) The charge bore up on itself its own refutation. (Hear, hear.) The amendment was then put, when there' appeared-- For : Alderman Houghton ; Councillors Stitt, Sheil. e°, l ' belly_ Steains_ Rvlev. Bowring. Ridley. Rorrers. Job. Glad" . , stone, Jeffery, Clint, Beckwith, Aikin, Anthony. Against: The Mayor ; Aldermen Bennett, Bold, Do ce4 Parker, Cooper, Gardner ; Councillors Anderson, Shiluali o r Haydock, Holden, Barton, Turner, Tyrer, Avison, Gravest Shand, Wagstaff, Earle, Hutchison, Johnson, gel l°4 Robertson, Farnworth, Vernon, Cropper. The amendment was, therefore, lost. a' et Mr. Graves moved a second amendment, to the e-- e that the appointment of additional members be postpon'" until the next council, and that the propriety of entirely' re organising the committee be also considered. Mr. Earle seconded the amendment. The council divided, and there appeared S h e ll, For : The Mayor ; Councillors Stitt, Anderson, , f Corbally, Barton, Steains, Ryley, Bowring, Graves, Wagstaff, Rogers, Job, Earle, Gladstone, J. R. Jeff er y'' Piston, Beckwith, Vernon. I.ert Against : Aldermen Bennett, Bold, Dover, P l ,r,„ Cooper, Gardner, Houghton ; Councillors Shimmin, dock, Holden, Turner, Tyrer, Avison, A. Shand, Hatchis ° l "' Johnson, Mellor, Clint, Aikin, Robertson, Farnwo r " Anthony, Cropper. The amendment was lost. Mr. Houghton was then appointed a member °' the committee. Mr. Mellor was also appointed a member. Mr. Johnson said the committee now stood at its orig in es number, 9 ; and he did not propose to add any other nai n to it. The proceedings were then confirmed. EDUCATION COMMITTEE. Mr. Anderson moved that the proceedings be co. includingan increase of £lO salary each to Mr. Glovt , Mr. Bunting, teachers at the north school. Mr. Dover complained that the education in the corre f ',, tion and other public schools was too high. It was mot • education of common people. In some charitable sell e° o the children of tradesmen were being educated. Ile shocked on going into a school, supported by public f 0 ' to see parasols carried by the children, and to see 01 ' working at crochet. (Laughter.) 01 1, Mr. working-at asked if the whole proceeding was not illenv, considering the 92nd section of the municipal reform b i „ b 'The rules under which the schools were managed were se a ' ae as to exclude a portion of the population. If they o, a rules of such a nature that many people could not ellc, -at without a violation of the conscience, he would sabmit tl4 it was illegal. He would, therefore, protest against'` Mr. Stitt said he Was of opinion that the re,- • before the council was whether the teachers salaries • be advanced or not. ma de Mr. Gardner exp r es s ed his sur p r i se a t th e s t a t e ments 10 . by Mr. Dover and Mr. Cooper in referen . ce to these sc h°° If Mr. Dover would take the trouble to meet him at th e se s schools he would show what would surprise him and the ivb o o oo council. Within the last seven years not less than 10 ' children had passed through these schools. Mr. Mozley was of the same opinion as Mr. , e the question before the council was the advance or otherny of the salaries of the teachers in these scoools. The °P h e thing that he would express his regret at was, that , question of salaries was brought before the board s; often, and in such a manner as was the custom ele ft since he had been a member of the council. It wa s be matter of regret, that the time of the council was to s. taken up in the discussion of the question of the sale r ga With regard to -the opinions that Mr. Dover ,at expressed, he would not say anything more than r i f if the corporation schools were admitted by law, an they had the means to support them out of the funds. i d greater portion of the funds expended on the schools she ll „d be on those placed under the charge of the teachers , 31 ' not on the teachers themselies. the Mr. Anderson could not agree with those who held. to opinion that the - education given in these schools was e 1 ni high a character for the working classes. It was genel u g admitted that the standard of education among the vint l 'ihe classes was much too low. He would move "Tha t 0 3 general proceedings of the committee be confirmed; also, that the salaries of the following teachers in the s° o to School be increased, viz.:—Mr. James Ellie, from 1 :' p, ‘ an £B5 per annum ; Mr. John Dalziel, frr Mr. Wm. Owens, from £5O to £65. The proceedings were confirmed. The proceedings of the gaol and house of corre ct ° committee were read, and confirmed. The proceedings of the Town-hall establishment rniittee were read and confirmed. cotn - The proceedings of gardens, library, and museum mittee were read and confirmed. The proceedings of the water committee were read. th at Mr. Jeffery said, there had been a resolution from 001 committee, brought before the council twelve months 1, 0 5 10 recommending that troughs were to be put up, at the vfir d to fountains, for the use of dogs. That had b een re= 01 the health committ ee , an d h e w i s h e d t o as k th e chailln ao that committee why that had not been attended to. T o Mr. Dover said, he thought it very strange that he lo t be called upon to off er an y exp l ana ti on on w h a t the 11 ,ar committee should have d one . H e k new that the 'lbe committee had put £6OO for the supply of water to toi l fountains, and he had no doubt, if the water committee not got the water they would get it. Mr. Jeffery said he was not complaining of the su- t eet of water to the ma n y f oun t a i ns, b u t h e un d e rsto od gang these troughs were ready cast, and he only wished t ° 4lo the chairman of the health co mm itt ee — w h o wa s resr e ' fie for the proceedings—why it had not been attended t e ' o t .j er thought he was in order, when the proceedings of the gold committee were read, and he hoped the committee report on it at the next monthly meeting of the cone' The proceedings were then confirmed. • ing The proceedings of the baths' committee. comPr l° 4oo, report on the memorial from the inhabitants of E ve r od for the establishment of baths in that district, were and confirmed, on the motion of Mr. Wagstaff. Mr. Earle moved that the coun c il adjourn, but i t o l° mooe d finally agreed that a special coun c il s h o uld be suint a ild for Wednesday next, to discu s s th e re port of the s r' improvement- committee. ist The , following report was read from the sP T ec hn t ___ committee, on the equalisation of rates ; by after the explanation laid before this commit hat the the town-clerk, it is the opinion of the committe e' re senT' aasimilation of the poor-rate is impracticable in die r o f tbil state of the law. Resolved : " That in the opinion i ste l33 committee, it was not expedient to alter the present b. of levying the local rates." Mr. Stitt moved the adoption of the report, which agreed to. it etll A letter was read from the Chairman of the hate Park board of health, inviting the co-operation 4 council for the widening oeSmithdown Lane, which, the writer stated: was within the borough. t be Mr. Jeffery moved that the letter be referred to finance committee, which was agreed to. nth/ easAti,r.anßdYlwe y es t t n d o v ia e l d s , f ac t c h o o rd T in o g w t n o . lol ti c c l e o , ok tli b a e t a t i li awi e _: n ee s ied, ender the direction of the surveyor. After a short discussion, the motion was carried. The council then rose. Stitt. that m£66 to £is+ temfmt, itors' signatur Le sneaker's) in be so atta r)oiation had' any ou flaile up ; and he then 1 )e furnished for the I ---"' qr. Gladstone seconded the motion. Mr. Stewart did not make any objection, and the motion dr. Glaclstone wished to draw the attention of the council ce committee recommending two rson. He thought it was right guineas per week t that they oug,ht Re assuran iom finance They N aware that it is well I some other parties of, anxiety certainly it would appear somewhat at that council should devote its atten- in whose ed in the manner in which they had Tyson's was. Before this grant of a was confirmed, he thought they .should have some assurance, inasmuch as they never had any privilege of knowing what took place in the committee appointed to enquire into the subject. They should have the assurance of the finance committee that there had been nothing in the conduct of Mr. Tyson that could directly, or indirectly, by any possibility implicate him in any breach of duty, of course if there was anything of the kind, it would be extreme injustice to give him two guineas a week. If he had done nothing wrong he was entitled to it, yet he thought, tinder the circumstances of the case, the matter should be explained lineas a' reason to believe it two guin Stewart said, he agreed with Mr. Gladstone, that they should not give any of their servants a pension, indeed, they had no power. Bat Mr. Tys o n was t o b e re t a i ne d in There could be no pretence for saying that he was, with all his infirmities, able to perform active duties, and give constant attendance ; but, there were certain duties, matters of a methodical character, which it was intended he should do at the town-clerk's office, and for that he was to receive wo guineas per week. With regard to the per ; of his duties for thirty years, in the Of the corporation, there forman , was no evidence i would lead them to suppose before the coann le was y of any mal :-practice or lie gligence of tee did feel, and he participated in that feeling, that it was a lamentable thing to see a man in his time of life let him self be made a cat's-paw of by others in matters so dis creditable. • But there was no evidence to show that he had neglected the duties which he had to perform. He was quite as capable as ever - he was to perform certain routine business. Stitt said he was desirous of asking the chairman of the finance committe, whether he was in a position to inform the council whether the negotia tions relative to the improvements in West Derby-road were pro g towards _ comp on, or likely to' be so His reason for asking the question was that the evening exhibitions in the Zoological Gardens had again the road at night had become thott3iit t subject, and that gentleman stated that the practice had grown up of appending a certain statement which really conveyed no accurate knowledge whatever. Certain matters were put forward in it as balances, such as the balance con nected with the Old Court of R.-quests Act., which it was perfectly useless now to put forward. The town-clerk told him that the statement was utterly valueless. The Town-clerk said, the treasurer told him it was no part of the corporate account. If he were to put forward a balanca sheet with his signature attached to it, the treasurer ;rich a one he Coed not ad difficulty. He (the the treasurer was pro t according is his idea The bat ect one ; anti rk) did not know whe. a bala! had b at lest. It was al nit he - said the p nd insufficient nost extraordinary on ate positively iys deemed necessary that al statement s were nc It was true that attached t•-) it, but it was hvte moved that thence : attached great importance honght it a document similar to that which ry correct man of , business produced of his own affairs, at forward 't to it. 11 some of them eren twice a-year. It from that document he saw that there was an account betwcen the corporation and the clerk of the peace; and on whose side the balance was. Without such statement, it ly member to know that ding liability whatever. er in having it correctly re mowed that the balance sheet E year, and be signed by the a respon City ea , er and d )reign to its Charac )tion of the table of fee There is statements, month or six weeks before hand, he th-oL answer should he given as soon as possible ST. GEOI MARK ETS COMMITTEE due co tin, THE NORTHERN TIMES, THURSDAI, MAY 5, 1859 others, showing that the unregistered houses are a very large number, which ought to be registered, which were not so, and those, too, of the worst class. We have it sated, that, under the sanction of the bye -laws, 3,269., applications were made for the registration of these. 1,848 have been reported or certified for registration ' • but at present they admit 650, and th e y are now reduced to 505. There must of course be a vast addition in number which ought to be registered and put under the bye-laws. If this system of night lodging-houses is to be carried on in Liverpool, I believe that the police, who would admit that many of these houses take in lodgers for the night—but they themselves deny this, in order to evade the registration, —these persons might he detected and fined for doing so, and that would likely effect some change upon them. If that system was adopted in this town which is adopted by magistrates throughout the country and other places—that of making the police answerable for these irregularities—there would be an improvement wishes to say that the health committee has not done great deal for the health of the town, and in such a manne as to be creditable to the committee themselves but it does not follow that, because a great deal has been done, a great deal more is not to done. There is nothing suggested in this report as to what is to be done to prevent these evils, but I will venture to suggest one step, without interfering with the duties of the health committee. Ido not see y it should not be the duty of the police, when they are leir .constant rounds, to detect these people. another thing which the health commitee reports, and no doubt on (rood authority, that Lord Shaftes bury's act of 1851-53 can be acted upon by the Liverpool Town Council as well as that of 184 G. Now, if this be the case, why should it not be •put in force in regard to these houses, where every kind of filth is accumulated in themselves and of their inhabitants ? I beg to suggest to the health corn committee, that what I have pointed out should be attended to. Nobody Mr. Clint said, the information, as given by the police, showed the nu caber of inhabitants to be about 71 to .the house on an average. Mr. Earle : I admitted that. Mr. Clint said, he was not alluding to any of Mr. Earle's but to another matter. It seemed to be a very long time, and on different occasions he had thought of it, that an application had to be made for the registration of a .t that an I Mr. Dover said — there was no doubt whatever that the health committee had great difficulty to contend with in the manapment of these lodging-houses. He recollected, some time ago, the police were said to have intruded themselves into these houses, and were obliged to go into the bedrooms, much against the will of the people, and he mentioned this matter to show thatit was an exceedingly hard thing to deal with the matter in such away as it might seem desirable to do. When a police officer was obliged to exercise that authority which the law has given him, he must exercise it with a great deal of discretion. The reason why Lord Shaftesbury's act was not carried out was because they thought that there was some opposition. He thought that the statements which Mr. Earle had obtained from the police would have gone to the proper place if they lead been sent to the health committee, and he thought that committee had done something for the health of the town in the expending of three millions of money for that purpose. He did not think that, taking any other body of men in the borough, there could be found a more useful body than the officers employed by the health committee. With regard to the time that had elapsed, through the illness of Dr. Dun can, now that he was better, he would be able to see these places, and he would call his attention to the fact that had been suggested, that six weeks or a month was too long a time between making the application and the registration of the houses, and he was sure the health committee would give it their attention. He concluded by moving the adop tion of the report and the general proceedings. Mr. Shand said, before the 'proceedings were confirmed, he wished to call the attention of the health committee to the state of the roads at Prince's-park. On the foot walk at that place, large lots of cinders had been put down, and was worked up into such a state as to be totally unfit for walking upon. lie had spoken to the surveyor, and he had promised to put something on it to bind it together, but that had not been done. At this season of the year, when the water-carts wet the centre of the roads, there was nothing for foot passengers but to walk on the rough pave ment at the edges. He thought that something should be done to remedy that as soon as possible, for it was a place of great public thoroughfare. Mr. Alin agreed with the observation made by Mr. Shand, and hoped to see the road in better order soon. Mr. Dover : Perhaps Mr. Earle will reply - to that, as it is something in his way. Mr. Earle said he had no objection to do so; bat the fact was, that it seemed to him very like taking care of "num ber one," when the gentleman at the park mentioned the bad state of the road there. He was sure Mr. Aikin would excuse him saying so, because he could not dany it. (Laughter.) It struck him that these cinders would bind sufficiently, though he thought it would be much better to have flags, but he thought it. was one of those questions that should rest for the present. They should meet the thing fairly in the face. They had spent £12),000 in se era ge, and very properly too, but after spending so much money under ground, they would have to spend a little sbove ground, before all these improvements would be car ried out. But wait till they coild t a new improvement Mr. Picton wished to know if the health committee had come to the resolution that had been passed by the council, that the committee was to comiciar about the new T hall ? Some conversation, of no public interest, took place, and the subject dropped, without coming to any final issue. The proceedings were then confirmed. tGE'S HALL COMMITTEE. The proceedings of the courts of law and George's-hall com mittee were read, and Mr. Earle moved their confirmation. Mr. Riley asked why there was no true statement of the expenses in connection with the hall ? Tie saw several things jumbled up together, here and there, but it seemed to him that it was for the express purpose of mystifying the matter. The Town-clerk stated the total cost of the hall to be £320,659, up to the present time. The proceedings of this committee contained the follow ing : —Resolution respecting Mr. Luya, and direction to Mr. Hutchinson to take temporary charge of St.' John's Market ; Recommendation to accept the tender of Mr. E. P. Jones, for clothing for the market officers. The resolution regarding Mr. Luya stated that, upon in vestigation, it appeared that defalcations amounting to em bezzlement had taken place, and his apprehension was therefore directed. Mr. Johnson moved • that the proceedings be confirmed. He submitted that, at prosent, it would not be advisable to go further into details, as Mr. Luya had been suspended, and was about to be apprehended. There was no doubt that he would he apprehended, and the proceedings would be the subject of an inquiry in a court of justice. The committee were going on with the investi gation, to ascertain what the f u ll e x t en t o f th e d e f a l ca ti ons might be, and the result would be reported to the council in Until these investigations bad been brought to a conclusion, it probably would not be wise to enter into much discussion noon the subject. .ins did not, concur with Mr. Johnson. He [ley must even go a little beyond Mr. Luya. stances c on apeached the (Hear, hear.) lie regretted much that the deputy-chair man of the finance committee was not now present. That gentleman did him (Mr. Steains) the honour to take down his