Northern Times. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1859-10-06 00:00:00

TOWN COU-NCIL PROCEEDINGS The usual monthly meeting of. the Town Council was held'yesterday, at the Town-hall. W..PRESTON, Esq., the Mayor, presided. Mr. John Buck Lloyd, the new alderman, was present. ----- mu. crikToN's DEATH The MAyon said, the Town Council, at its last meet ing, had passed a resolution of condolence with the family of the late Mr. 'Chilton.. Tliat resolution he had for warded, and had received a. reply, which the Town clerk -would read. Thh'TbivN-cLEnx. read a note, dated Bromborongb; the 4th of October, from Air. Thoinas Chilton, the. son, of the deceased, acknowledging the receiPt of the red:O. lutio4, and. expressing on the part of the family their grateful acknowledgments for the same, au their sincere thanks to the Mayor for his own kind and courteous —lt was ordered that - the letter ecorded upon the minutes. expression of sympathy should 1 The minutes of the lait monthly meeting, and of the subsequent special meeting,. were then read and-con- firmed. THE FINANCE. COMMITTEE. The - pioceedin;s of the Finance Committee comprised, first, a recommendation that the discretion given by, and contained in, the act of 7 William IV., and 1 Vie., cap. 19,, as to.the appointraient of an assistant, or deputy recorder,should: at . •the next _sessions, be exercised by the Recorder ; second, a recommendation to sell, subject to the approval of the Lords of the Treasury, the rover slonaryinterest of a piece of land at the corner of Drury lane and the Old Ropery to the LiVerpool Corn Exchange Compauy, for the sum of £2.5. - • Alderman S. HOLM; in moving the confirmation of the first recommendation, said that the proceedings of the Finance Committee did not contain anything of great uence ; indeed, for some months past, the proceed- ings had been barren of anything except the usual routine matters. Ile then moved that the first recom mendation-be confirmed. Mr. gI e AnsTONE said 09. t he wished to refer to the ntiniber of sessions held by the Recorder, and, as far as he could judge, it appeared to him that the number was insufficient; because he was one of those who held that the practice of committing prisoners to the sessions was a bad one. First of all, it imposed . on the town a serious expense for the support of those prisoners; and, secondly, a man ought to be tried at the earliest oppor- He was quite well aware, that the legal profes sion were at variance with the opinion he had, ventured to state ; but, he thought, as they had a IteCordpr, it would be better to have a more frequent session, and if a man were charged with an offence, such a person, who ever he might be, should be tried at once, and committed forthwith. Mr. S. TloLmn said, in reply to Mr. Gladstone, that they had two or three extra sessions, for which the he corder received extra pay. It was one of the charges alleged against the lay magistrates, that they were not in the.habit of sending prisoners for trial, but dealing with them sanfmarily.--The recommendation *as then confirmed, Mr. B.' HOLME then proceeded to ,move the confirma tion of the second recommendation. He explained that the land contained 33 square yards ; and, as the other Part of the land had been sold to the Corn Ex change; the committee were desirous,. that this remain ing bit should be made freehold. He was not aware that there was any other matter in the proceedings of the committee that required a word of explanation, and he would therefore move the confirmation of the entire proceedings. Efraux sr.s.comied the motion, which was agreed to, INSPECTION OF COMMON LODGING-HOUSES, At the suggestion of the Town-clerk, the Council then proceeded to a consideration of a joint report of the Watch and Health Committees, as to the registra tion and inspection of common lodging-houses, post poned from the last meeting. This gave a full digest of the law on the subject of lodging-houses, and then as to the practice adopted in the registration and inspection of lodging-houses, and concluded by suggesting what - - improvements can be made. Your committee consider it desirable to discontinue the practice of supervising lodging-houses, partly by police and partly by sanitary inspectors, in conjunction with other work. By this process the business cannot be so regularly attended to, especially in detecting unregistered houses, as by appoint ing persons solely for the purpose, to be placed under one head officer, capable of uniformly conducting the inspection throuOxeut_the borough by night and_ by day, without injury to other engagements. Your committee have eare fully inquired as to the , best mode of effecting an improved system. They are of opinion that one committee of the council should be entrusted with the entire duty, and that the Health Committee is the proper one to undertake it. The medical officer of health mast be consulted with respect to the number of inmates to be allowed, ventilation, treatment of infec tious disease, and the like. The subject is of a sanitary character. There is a feeling in the public mind adve:se to midnight domi ciliary visits by police officers; and notwithstanding the fact that, when the sanitary. get passed, there was an efficient police force in existence, the legislature expressly appointed the health committee as the body to carry out the law regulating lodging houses. Your committee, therefore, recommend that the health committee should be required wholly to take charge of the matter, and that an efficient staff should be appointed for the duty exclusively. The attention of your committee has been directed to a variety of details connected with the ques tion ; but it appears to them that, if it be the pleasure of the council to adopt the foregoing recommendations, it would be preferable to set the new machinery in operation, and require further information to be colected before proceeding to other changes. With these views, your committee recommend that the health committee should be asked to report to the council, as soon as .practicable, whether any and what improvements can be suggested in reference to the limitation of the number of lodgers for every apartment, the separation of the sexes, and similar points ; as also whether any means can be devised for improving the condition of houses let in weekly apartments, The following letter, in reference tcr the same sub ject, from Mr. Theodore W. Rathbone, was also read ; To WILLIAM PRESTO', ESQ., MAYOR. DEAR ME. MAYOR, —May I beg your attention to the enclosed before the final settlement, on Wednesday, of one of the mast momentous questions that have often come before the Council. Your mayoralty has been eminently characterised by kind and courteous attention to the upper classes; and I am sure that itwould be very grateful to your feelings if the wretched helpless condition of the lowest and most miserable was not over looked before its close, as it sadly will be, if influential members of the Council do not come forward on this occasion. The report really is altogether wrong, both as to its facts and its law— the latter singfe/ardy as yott,-as a county magistrate; must no doubt te well aware. If any of the Council have any doubt On this point, only.let any of them look to the plain, umnis takealCZEOLds of the fm,:ts, either the general or local, or to the construction put upon them by the highest authorities, the law officers of the crown; the 'Justices of the Peace,' .vol. 17, page 41; or Okes' Synopsis,' sth edition, page 269.—Yours very faithfully, THRODO'RE W. RATTIBONE. " Allerton Priory, Liverpool, Oct. 3, 1859." Mr. PiczoN asked the Town-clerk, whether there was any dqubt that the law "was correctly stated in the report read ?.=, The TOWN-CLERX---I have no doubt about it, sir. Mr. CLINT, in a lengthy speech, moved of the report. This report, as the Council the adoption of an order take would re member, had been produced in consequence of the Council t hat a conference shodplace be tween the Health and Watch Committees, with regard to carrvinc, out the best mode of visiting common lodgin g _ houses. The report emanated from a joint committee of members chosen from the two committees. It had re ceived the sanction of the Health and Watch Committees; and, therefore, came before the Council stamped with the approval of those committees. Liverpool, as stated in the report, was the first town to obtain power to control these lodging-houses, by an act in 1846. TI he Public Health Act did not dea l with the question. 1851 the Lodging-house Act, well known as Lord Sh,af tesbury's Act, was passed. In 1847 there was passed an act technically known as the Model Act , in which some light was thrown upon the meaning of the term "common lodging-houses," which were defined as houses in which persons are harboured for a single night, or less than a Week at a time. In 1854 the Council applied for autho rity to control all or any houses were w _ r _ so numerous as to be injurious in to w li l e ic a l l i ti t i h • eenalits but they eY opposed, and defeated. In 1855, how ' ever the Nuisances R en i mai Committee Act was passed, -Health by which ' the . __ll?.ve power to enter any house with a view to the rem lieved he had goi r a e ,0 1 T o e f any nuisance. Now, he he r . ?.e whole of the law.. The nex t point was. the - out the provisions of those laws. The Health ConrsA tte :had prepared bye-laws, 'and they had also based upon the act oulue presented to the-Council -a report as to these lodging-houses on the 9th of March, 1859. With regard to .the construction of the acts of parliament, lie undeistood that 'Mr. - ! Rushton narrowed the definition of common lodging houses tolieuseSlikingTOtigens for a single night,' and , who paid nightly: He was jealous of any extension of the power of visitation; and he believed the prac - ice of the magistrates had been very much the same. A good deal had been said in regard to four streets mentioned in a police memorandum, and these might be taken as types of the very worst streets in the town. They were Albert-street, Toxteth-park; Hodson-street, Mary. bone ; and Chisenhale-street and St. Martin's-street, Vauxhall-road. In those four streets there were 635 houses, of which 13 only appeared to have been re gistered. The report said that the population was principally composed of dock labourers, fruit and fish vendors, chip makers, and mendicants. The . houses were filthy, and in some instances two families occupied one room, and the sexes were mixed promiscuously. Now the question was, wh'ether those' houses - came within the category of common lodging-houses, or. whether they were occupied by parties - holding- lodgings for a week at a time, and therefore escape the operation of the act. The practice in administering those laws had been to vest the povier of visiting partly in the officers of the Health Committee, in combination with their other duties, and partly in police-inspectors, in combina tion with their ordinary duties of the police force. The Health Committee officers, he believed, performed that duty in the day- time, and it was left to the police inspectors to attend to it at night. It was quite right not to give such a responsibility to- ordinary police officers, as the duty was one of the most delicate character. Now, each inspector had a section of 15 or 20 men to visit ; about two-thirds of the whole police force were in operation in the borough at night ; and in case of fire or sudden emergency, the presence of those inspectors might be wanted whilst they were engaged in visiting the lodging-houses. He was re- minded by Mr. Sheil that the inspector was taken from I his beat for an hour, or an hour and a half, in visiting thOse houses. The third part of the ;report was that which relates to suggestions of improvement in the mode of visiting those houses. Now, the sub-committee had come unanimously to the conclusion that the present system was an imperfect one. Between the officers of the Health Committee and the police inspectors there had been divided jurisdiction, and the machinery had been very inefficient. The committee had, therefore, come to a resolution that 'the duty should be vested in an exclusive staff devoted to that purpose, and that the carrying out of those - laws should be placed in the hands of elle committee. The • committee thought that the Health Committee should be the party to carry out this „important busineas--that it should have a large,—,at all events, a sufficient :staff ; and that, for the purpose of visiting those houses by night and day, the staff should be exclusively employed,upon that duty. (Hear.) The report threw out suggestions for limiting the number of lodgers in one apartment, and another was, the segre gation of the sexes,—for the present system was affect.: ins not only the health, but the morals of the young. In regard to what were called domiciliary visits, they all knew how distasteful those visits were to English men; he considered his house as his castle ; and, while it was necessary, therefore, to carry out those acts sous not to make them shams, it was equally necessary that a good deal of discretion and delicacy should be used in such visits. (Hear, hear.) He was free to admit that there had been a want of vigour in carrying out the act —that those houses had not been rightly looked after ; but, he would remind the council, that- the machinery placed at the command of the Health Committee had been very defective ; and, if they surveyed their labours' for the last twelve•years, they should find that they had had much to engage their attention. Mr. Clint here glanced rapidly at the great sanatory . improvements which had been effected; and, in conclusion, hoped that the means of educational and moral advancement might progress in the same ratioi—the schoolmaster following upon the footsteps of the scavenger. (Applause.) Mr. WOODRUFF seconded the motion. Mr. EARLE said it appeared to him that all the com plication arose from the jealousy of the Health Com mittee in being interfered with in any way. However, they had one fact, and that was, .that the row made by Mr. Rathbone about the lodging-houses had been pro ductive of some good. Mr. Rathboue had not been an swered, simply because he was unanswerable. His letter showed, that in London, the system which he proposed was being carried out. He moved an amendment to the effect, that the regulation and charge of common lodging-houses lie with the police, with in structions that they be all in conformity with the act before they be allowed to take in lodgers The amendment was not seconded Mr Alderman PARKER rose to make a remark as to the able speech deliyered by the Chairman of the Committee, and he was sorry to see Mr. Earle differ with him. The town of Liverpool was the best managed, in a scientific point of view, of any in the country. The movement for managing the bad condi tion of lodging-houses had not originated with Lord Shaftesbury, but with the town of Liverpool itself; and the Liverpool Sanitary Bill was taken up and made a copy for the whole country. He would support Mr. Clint. Mr. Alderman S. HomaE said, when they first applied to parliament for the power to improve the condition of the habitations of the lower classes, he was one who heartily joined in the movement, and he was an advocate for it when the act of parliament was obtained. He then thought -it • would • have been much better to have plaeed the matter in the 'hands of the police; bat he was now convinced, after the' report that had been read, which he had paid a great deal of attention to, that it should, not be taken out of the hands of the Health Committee. At the same time, he felt bound to say, in justification of Mr. Rathbone, a gentleman well known for his philanthrophy, that there was an amount of misery and wretchedness still existing in the north end of the town, that was beyond description. He himself had gone on a valuation survey of the houses in Stockdale-street, in the north end, and such was the state, of those buildings at the top of that street, that it was utterly impossible for him to remain in one of tlae court-houses formore than three or four minutes, and he left absolutely vomiting. Mr. Clint had admitted that the present system was most faulty, and he had also admitted that these lodging-houses had not been properly looked after. Mr. CLINT—I beg your pardon ; I did not make use of the word " faulty." Mr. Alderman Hor.mr. said he had taken it down so ; but he was speaking in justification of Mr. Rathbone. He quite concurred in the remarks made by Mr. Clint, in his very able speech.. The Health Committee had succeeded in putting down many' prejudices ; and he cheerfully admitted that they had done all that was in their power to do. The'Council were now shown a way to remedy the evil, a better •way than by placing the 'matter in the hands of the police, as that might have been found faulty. ' If the Health Committee carried out what they proposed to do, by appointing a number of officers who would make themselves well acquainted with the keepers of the lodging-houses, then he believed that they should have made a step in the right direction. He, therefore, having read the report with great care, was prepared to hope that the Council would accept and approve of the report that was prepared ; by so doing, it would give them an opportunity of testing whether the system would work well or not. He should not hare the slightest objection to the report ; and he was quite willing to Wait the result for twelve months, as he believed many advantages would arise- from it. (Hear, hear.) Mr. AVISON said it appeared to him, as a lawyer, that Mr. Rathbone wished the Council to determine the meaning of the act of parliament; but that was not the duty of the Council, but of the magistrates. He thought the magistrates did not give the Health Coin mittee the assistance which they should give them. Mr. STITT said he had read Mr. Rathbone's letter, o dr e r a c) e was eas a nfotherayrinformationgentlemanst atw tef when from the information. m eun c whateveril and he thought the Council was p much indebted to him ss ohi H uoordu l e cged h i. n o g p_e h d o u t the re A fu t se th th e same time, he thought that due allowance had not been made by Mr. Rathbone for the very great difficulties een that surrounded the Health Committee. He had gone round with a number of police-officers, and he found it was impossible for them to do their duty properly. • The theory was, that the officers were to report to - the Health Committee any Cases of nightly was, being unregistered, but they had a list of the houses the that were . registered; and the consequence Freater nu mber of the houses had not been subjected to iltSpection, as it required the time of the officers mitt sively to attend to those that they knew to be lodging houses. When a lodging-house was found unregistered, the owner -said the lodgers were all weekly, and the officers did not, nor could not know, except by going every night, to see if they were the Bar wties. Then, to say t hat fourteen inspectors could o such a duty, laccount of lodging-houses,. ceeded to give a statistical was simply prepost erous. He then pro.. _NORTHERN .DAILY TIMIS.. and showed that during the last three years only £7 Gs. lad, been imposed as fines. He supported the report. Mr - . WOODVUFF explained that when he seconded the resolution of Mr. Earle, on the 6th July last, that the regu lation o' lodging-houses should-be placed under the police, he did so with the conviction that the Health Committee had neglected the duty placed under their charge. He agreed with Mr. Stitt, that they Should not shut out in formation froth any source, but he would take care that it was really. inforthatton. It was not a fact that the Health Committee had neglected to register houses. He believed the work would be better done by a large staff under the Health Committee, than by the assis tance of the police. Mr. Toßis s asked the Chairman of the Watch Com mittee if it had been brought under his notice that some years ago, a certain number of officers were told off for this purpose wider the Health Committee ? There was a change made, but how that came about he could not say; but he wanted to ask the Chairman of the Watch Committee, whether his attention had 'been called to the fact that the system now recommended, had been tried some yeafs ago ? Mr. PrcToN, at length, supported the .recom mendation of the committee, believing that the system would work well. Dire Alderman DOVER said Mr. Rathbone seemed to be confusing two classes of lodging-houses. They knew, from good authority, that the act was not applied' to weekly lodging-houses; He thought, if Mr. Rathbono had gone out himself and judged from observation, he would hay.ecome to a different conclusion than he had done . by reports received in letters *bile sitting in the Reform Club. He had to tell the Cbimcil that they were in a great measure indebted to Dr. Duncan for their useful Health 'Act. ➢ir. ANDERSON said he was willing to admit, as a magistrate, that the magistrates had made the fines too small ; but he thought they might, in future, be inclined to make them heavier. Mr. EARLE asked whether those delicate visitors of the Englishman's Castle were to be sworn in as police ? Mr. BECKWITH read from several documents, with a view to show that Mr. Rathbone's statements were uet correct,-and contended that Liverpool was a pattern to any town. _ _ Mr. Alderman S..IIoLmE objected to Mr. Reckwith'S marks, in the absence of Mr. Rathbone. Mr. BECKWITIT—What am I to do then? . Mr. EARLE-Sit down. ---(Laughten) - BRCKWITR went on to show that the people in Prescot and Woolton'who had lodging-houses were not at all in a condition to be coMpared to Liverpool, in a sanitary point of view. As regarded Woolton, he had been there, and he believed a more filthy place he never had his foot in,: Chamber of Commerce Mr. J— 1 he hac EFFEICV comp.. a t- had no in, illation afforded them as to the committee's interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He complained that the chairmen of committees moved the confirmation of the proceedings as if they were mere machines, and had no intellect. (Laughter.] Alderman DOVER asked Mr. ,Ttffery if he wishde him to.oecupy the time of the Council unnecessarily. (Hear, hear.) He had given him all theinfermation it was in his power to give: Mr. Jeffery had o-one with him on deputations to official personages ; and knew very well that all they got from them was- civility. (Laughter and applause.) His own impression was, that the Chan cellor of the Exchequer was against them : Mr. Sheil's was the'reverse—(laughter)---ancrif he were to talk for hours, he could not throw more light upon it. Alderman PARKER hoped tha: Health Committee would go on with their plans. Mr. Pic-rox said Government appeared to have an impression on their minds that the people of Liverpool wished' them to contribute towartls our local improve ments; and another impression, that they were called upon to lay out certain Sums of money not necessary to be now expendhd. He thought these two objections should be met in any communication they sent to Government. Mr. Alderman COOPER thought the Lodging-house Act had been fairly carried out. Mr. CLINT in reply said, with regard to the question put by Mr: Tobin as to a number oepoliee being told off exclusively, he was not aware that such had the . . cas( The inspectors had heen in the habit of receiving some small allowance for their work. As to the question by Mr. Earle, the matter did not come before the com mittee, and he was not prepared to answer it. He thought too much had been said about Mr. Rathbone, who had been, he firmly believed, actuated by a sense of duty. The proceedings of the committee were then con firmed. THE WATCH COMMITTEE The proceedings of the Watch, Lighting, Fire-police, Fire-prevention, Gas Supply, and Hackney Carriage and Licensing Committees,—which 'contained nothing of special interest which has not already been published, ,--were then read and confirmed, on the 'motion of Mr. CLINT, seconded by Mr. JOHNSON. THE HEALTH COMMITTEE.-NEW POST-OFFICE, &C. The proceedings of the Health Committee comprised, Ist—A recommendation that the salary of Mr. John Evans, one of the surveyors in the engineer's depart ment, be increased from £l2O to £l4O per annum. 2nd—A recommendation that Mr. T. J. Hughes be appointed collector of rates, in the place of Mr. Peter Bradshaw, resigned, at the lowest scale of salary, viz., £l5O per annum. 3rd—A recommendation that Mr. Edward Fitzgerald, Jun., be appointed collector of accounts- in the place of Mr. T. J. Hughes, promoted as above, at the salary of £lO5 per annum. Alderman DOVER moved the confirmation of the pro ceedings. Ile believed the recommendations for advance of salary would have to stand over, pursuant to standing orders. They would remember that the parliamentary sub-committee of the Health Committee had had a con ference with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the subject of a new post-office. Perhaps the Town-clerk would be good enough to read the correspondence upon the subject, and the resolutions which had been founded upon it. _ _ . Mr. SHEIL said that the correspondence had been going on for three years. The last communication that they had from the former government, they were led to understand that- the only difficulty in the way was that the government going out of office could not bind the government coming into office. Mr. Gladstone had not . given them any positive reply, and he appeared to want all the circumstances of the case before he (Mr. Gladstone) would reply. When he was down, he listened with great attention to what they all had to say, but he mid very little himself ; and what he did say was. said in such a way as to render it impossible to know what his own views were on the subject. (Laughter.) It had been said that £17,000 had been laid oat on the present Post-offi'ce within a few years. It would not be a very pleasant thing for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to answer why that had been expended, when it was said that the building was totally unfit for its present purpose. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was placed in a difficulty. He (Mr. Sheil) believed that the land was granted by the-Corporation without pay ment, for the erection of the revenue buildings. Itb. believed the Corporation undertook to erect the buildin„o , at £150,000, And the oxpene of the work was upwarets. of £250,000. If he was right in speaking from me mory, the Corporation of Liverpool had contributed more than half the amount for the erection of the government buildings. Mr. Gladstone's letter just amounted to this, that the Corporation were first to give the land for nothing, and then pay half the ex penses after. The Post-office authorities had got a crotchet in their heads. In 1839 they thought it bet ter, at that time, to• let the Post-office renvein in The TOWN-CLERK then proceeded to read the cor respondence. The fast was a letter from the Mayor to the Rt. Hon. William Ewart Gladstone. This stated that he had communicated with the chairman of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, as to the probability of that board renting all, or part, of the present post office. The chairman's reply had been, that the subject had never been discussed at the board, so that he could not say ; but, with the alterations made not long since, he thought they could do with only two additional rooms: To that letter the Mayor had received the following reply, from the Chancellor of the Rxchequer Flascarden, N.W., Sept. 13, 1899. Sir,—l have the honour to acknowledge your letter of the 12th. The case of the two rooms occupied by the post-office, under the Dock Board, stands clear and well defined by the prior correspondence of 1850-1. With regard to the post-office premises generally, you inform me that if the Government determines to remove the post office, and will then make a proposal to the Dock Board, giving to that board the offer of the premises for its use, the chairman will take the opinion of the board forthwith. For this courtesy I have to thank both the chairman and your worship. The answer, however, supposes the decision of the Government as the first step in the case ; whereas my object was to ascertain the wants and disposition of the Dock Board, as a possible element of the considerations which may influence the decision of the Government. Old Postoffice-place. Two members of the Council were sent as a deputation to have it explained, and he was one of that deputation ; and they succeeded in showing that certain alterations were necessary. He then went on to show how the people of Glas gow, within twenty-five years, had erected three post-offices ; and all through the want of fore sight. Livernool was in similar circumstances to what Glasgow had teen. He was almost afraid to speak after what had been said by Mr. Jeffery, but he could not exaggerate the inconvenience that the committee were put to. On Tuesday last he went to inspect thedifferent offices, and from the manner in which the people were huddled together, it was astonishing to him how they could perform their duties. Mr. GLADSTONE said it appeared to him that if the Council were bound to' accept the statement which had been read by the Town-clerk, as amounting to a final decision on the part of the Govern ment, Liverpool had been treated with a total want of sympathy. Liverpool wanted nothing out of the public money : she merely wanted what was right out of that which she herself contributed. Liver pool was not to be told that, for a few' thousand pounds, that was a reason why the post-office should not be placed in such a position that it would suit all the wants of the•community. He would say that, no matter who the members of the government might be, he, for one, would not hesitate 'to state what was his opinion. (Hear, hear:) It appeared to him • that, if the Gbvernment were determined to refuse to' entertain the application, it might be well worth the' while of the Mersey Dock Board, on payment of £150,000, to take the site of the Customs'-house and construct a dock there. (Hear, hear.) It would be a desirable thing, and a paying speculation. He had no doubt the Chancellor of the 'Exchequer would do his duty as far as he could; but he had others to deal with, such as were to be found in 'every Government of a narrow and contracted mind. - He quite concurred in the remarks of Mr. Shiel, that the 'Health Committee were suffering from want of proper 'accommodation in Cornwallis-street. Mr. ANTHONY, Mr. MOZLEY, and Mr. STITT expressed their opinions on the subject. The TOWN-CLERK read some explanatory documents, and the resolutions were then adopted. Mr. Alderman DovER then moved the confirmation of the general proceedings. Mr. BnNNErr expressed his regret that the committee had refused to grant liberty to erect some lamps in front of a buildinc , in Tithebarn-street, as the room which they would have occupied,would not have been so much as the pilasters that had been -omitted foi• the purpose of having them. ‘• A discussion of some length was introduced by Mr. Gladstone, in reference to the rating of the Lyceum Library, which resulted in a motion being agreed to that was moved by Mr. Gladstone, and seconded by Mr. Shimmin, to the effect that the Council should take proceedings against that institute for the reco very of this year's sanitary rates. The committee's general proceedings were then con firmed.' " . - ItWill be borne in naiad that, in the present instance, it is not the Government which is the moving party, in an ordinary search for space to accommodate a revenue department; but it is the town contemplating a large plan of public improve ment, local in its character, however important ; in which plan the Government, if it proceeds, would be made to bear a leading part. In so doing, it would make extensive provision for certain prospective wants ; for wants more remote than according to its ordin try practice it takes into view ; and the proposal to provide for which, at so early a stage, might be viewed with some jealousy by Parliament and by other communities. Under these circumstances, desirous to smooth the obstacles which appeared to make our proceeding difficult, I was desirous to ascertain what facilities or inducements the town, or impor tant bodies belonging to the town, could offer us, which might serve as a set-off against possible and anticipated objections. I presume the chairman of the Dock Board has not fully taken this view of the matter. . - Instead of repeating any particular inquiry, I had better, perhaps, draw into one general question what had better be so considered than as separate and independent subjects. We have before us the offer of the Corporation. What I desire to know is, whether that offer, as it stands, represents the whole of what the town is, prepared to do, in order to encourage the Government to purchase the Dale-street site in such a sense that it is the wish of the community that, if we cannot proceed upon that offer, as it stands; if, in other words, we look for any further local assistance or contribution in any form, we should definitively decline to proceed any further in the matter. I cannot, I think, do better than address this question to your worship in your official capacity, trusting to your kind ness to give me a, reply, which I may take as expressing the sense of the town. In the meantime, I have lost no time in taking measures to have the proposed site examined forthwith in regard to its architectural capabilities, with the hope, that when I shall receive your answer, I maybe so fully in possession of the entire case on the side of the Government, as to procure for you the speedy answer which you are so well entitled to claim. —I have the honour to be, sir, your faithful servant, W. E. °LAI:IBI'ONR. -- ------ To the Worshipful the Mayor of Liverpool. The TOWN-CLERX. said the Mayor had forwarded a copy of that letter to the Chairman of the Mersey Dock Board ; and Mr. Turner had called upon the Mayor with that letter, and said he could not bring the matter before the board without knowing what would be the accommodation, and what would be the probable rent. The Mayor had written to the Government to that effect, and had received the following reply from Mr. Hamilton, of the Treasury : Treasury-Chambers, .30th Sept., 1859. Sia,—l am commanded by the Lords Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury, to acquaint you . that their lordships have had under consideration the applications which have .been made to them resPecting her Majesty's Government for the site of the new Post-office, of a portion a the purchase by the ground adjoining Dale-street, acquired by the Corporation of Liverpool under the act of 1838. I am to state that, before any decision can be come to by their lordships upon that subject, involving, nece ssarily, a very large expenditure of public money,. they must co ns id er f u ll y whether the present Post-office Buildings may not admit of such improvements and alterations a s ma y ren der that expen ditureu unnecessary, at least for many ye ars . My lords therefore request that the original drawings, fro m may the lee inquirytransmitted to this officenderaftoorod Proposed.—l which the p resen t P os t-office was erected, and which, it i s the e a p r u e r in Asyeoofur facilitatingcharge, am, sir, your obedient servant, GEO. A. HAXILTON. . To the Town-clerk, Liverpool. The TOWN-CLERX. said, when the alterations were made in the Post-office in 1851-2, the original plans were handed to the Postmaster here, for 3I , pi nny- THE MARKETS' COMMITTEE .... _ The proceedings of the. Markets' Committee comprised a recommendation to appoint the following persons In spectors of Slaughter-houses, Meat, and Fish, under the provisions of the local acts and of the Nuisances Re moval and Diseases Prevention Acts, `viz.:—Mr. Isaac Hutchinson, Inspector of Markets; Mr. James Stone house, Mr. John B. Blundell,' and Mr. Thomas Thomp son, Managers of ;4arkets. Mr. Jourtsow moved the confirmktism (if the proceed- thorne, the Architect ; and he had recehed a letter i hips'. Ile said the Committee had reCalved a Very fFom Mr. •Banning, stating that he had " forlfakiled them elaboraterctrort froth their Treasurer upon-blie syste' in 0 _ in 1852 to London.' ' at present Molted of br,ok-leepint,r, which hag met the _. Alderman DovER asked the Town-clerk to read the entire approval of Mr. Rhind", , their auditor. .. resolutions of the Parliamentary Sub-committee, tend Mr. Wonowerr seconded Ow motion: . said they had Ito ask the Council's approval of them - . Mr.Pieroxasked how it happcnedthat, with increasilo The Town-clerk then read as follows :--•-- 1 pressure upon their ' space, then - should be several It having been reported to this council, that a deputation ' hundreds of pounds • deficiency of revenue, through from the Health Committee has• had an interview with the stalls and shops being imlet ? Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject of the site for a ' Mr. BECKWITH called attention to fhenuisance caused new Post-office in this borough, and the cogrevondence which - , in a respectable neighbourhood by O:As-destruction of has since taken place between the Mayor, Vie Lords Commis of her Majesty's Treasury, and the Chancellor of the tainted fish and meat. . , Exchequer, on this subject, having been dor. - dered— Mr. GRATES said that some time since' a memorial Resolved.---In reference .to the letter cf the Chancellor was referred to the Markets' Committee by the'Cotincil,• of the 13th ultimo, that this council is' prepared, in con- , . fortuity with the Liverpool Improvement Act, 1853, to asking that the barrier thrown across Clerefand-square transfer to the proper government authorities at the actual Market into Pitt-street, might be removed. 116 wished to know from the chairman what steps had' been taken comply with the request e. , • , coat to the corporation so much of the property acquired to under 'that act ifs is necessary for the site of a Post-office ; but they moult decline to make any eontril'intion out of the local funds in furtherance of the erection of a lieu' Post-office. ' Mr. JEIVERY would like' to know what acennamoda- That, inasmuch as this council has postponed'. since the year tion had been provided for theinereilaing wants of those who brouht roduo to our markets i. . • 1356. the erection of offices for public municipal'. purposes, on the land fronting Dale-street, in consequen e of representa- g p tions from the Chamber of Commerce that such latidis adngira- Mr. SongsioN replied seriatim to all the questions. bly adapted for the site of a post-office, Which postponement In answer to Mr. Jeffery, he said after the "amencinvent carried at the, last meeting, dm committee had done. has occasioned very great detriment to the aliment adminis tration of municipal affairs; audit appearing, from the corms i pondence now read, that negotiations with the post-offiCe and nothing. Wth reference to the' memorial from Pitt other government departments on this subject bwa• been in street, that matter was to be reported upon after the nth progress sin -.e 1856, that further delay will ensue. of November. As to Mr. Beckwith's camplaint, the tainted meat was only stored, not destroyed. in the Resolved.—That unless the government authorities' shall, on or before the Ist Day of December next, 'nave defihitirely agreed to purchase from the corporation, so much of the laird locality pointed out. Mr. Picton's arAwer was, that the acquired under, the Liverpool Improvement Act, 1858, as may chief demand for room was for wholesale dealers, net retail traders. The stalls in the market were' appro be required for a PoSC-otilee, the llcalth Committee - >;e in strutted to proceed with the preparation of plans fOr the'New Public-offices, and in submit the same with estimates ea , this priated for certain businesses. Some cf these were slack, council for consideration. • . • in particular seasons; but the Market' Committee had Resolved.—That the Mayor be requested to forward copies- no power to break through the arrangement.' of these resolutions to the Lords Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury, to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and to the Post-master General, with, an explanatory letter f the' views of the council on the euthject, and referring to the col respondence which has taken place with different departrcents' thereon. --,. - - Mr. Alderman DOVER, seeonded by, Mr. Alderman* Cooper, having 'Mooed their adoption, Mr. JEFFERY asked for further information. Mr. Alderman DOVER asked if Mr. Jeffery would like to have the correspondence read, extending over the - last three and a-half years ?. Irhe had, he would really' be as wise as he was now. They had been trying to do • something—fancied that they had—but found that they, had done nothing. He .believed, that the individual feeling of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was in their favour, but of course be had Parliament and other I towns to contend with ; and'it - was time the committee came to some decision, for; by waiting, they were losing ;in large sum otmoney in interest. The desire for a new Post-office had arisen, net with- the town, but the • IVSCELLANEOUS. The proceedings. Odle Educational committee were read and confirmed ; and a vote of thank passed to Mr. C'aibourne for liberally treating, the children of the Corporation Schools trr a free sail to Newt Brighton. the proceeding s'of the Gaol and Hou.serf 'Correction Committee were next read and confirmed. The proceedings of the Gardens, Librarr.and Museum Committee, compriied atrecommendation taincrease the salary of Mr. James 2igby, librarian at the north library, from £75 to £B5 per annum ; and of Mr. Peter Cowell, librarian at the south library, from t £56 16s. to 470: per annum.-This stands over till the nmt meeting, pursuant to standing orders. The other proceedings were confirmed. ,Mr. Estill was elected a member of lie , committee in the place of Mr. Riley, deceased. . THE WAT COMMITTEE The proceedings, resolutions, and reports of the Witter Committee, comprised a report of the Financial Sith-Committee on the subject of the charges for the supply of water. FARNWCiItTII said, in. the absence of the Chair- Iran, he had been requested to move the confirmation of the-proceedings. He should state briefly the particulari of the report, a copy of which was_ in every member's hand. The first was as to the domestic supply. By the-act of parliament, the- Water 'Committee had the power of compounding watsr rates in houses u?to £l3 per annum rental ; but it had been the practice to com poand where the rental was-•much mt r 3 than 11/3. It was-permissive, he believeda if the rents of homes were pallet weekly or monthly . ; but the committee thought that - this had been , carried' to too great an' extent—in some cases with rentals of £3O or £4O. The' com mittee recommended that in future the rates of .no houses be compounded for where the rents exceed £l3. Then it was • suggested . that the payment of the collectors be different to what it is at present. The collectors'.-were now paid by a salary, ard!by a bonus when a certain per centage was collected. It was. thought better to simplify that, and pay the water-rate collectors by a simple per centage, not yet defined.. They had also been receiving a per centage upon. the amount allowed small cottage owners for.com positam. The committee 'thought that the collectors should only receive a percentage, upon the gross, amount received, and not upon what was compounded: for. (Wear, hear.) They were not satisfied, either, as to the . existing checks on the collectors of the rates, awl the property taken as being 'void and er.ipty; and' sug gested that , additional checks be provided. ( lear, hear:) Another important suggestion was, as to water used for trading and-manufacturing purposes. At present there were only 250 parties in the torn.sup plied in that way ; and it was now proposed that all should be supplied by meter. The, present price- varied from 9d. p3r 1,000 gallons to 13,1 d. or even 15d.--the average being 10td. per 1,000 gallons. There was a considerable difference or opinion on this subject; be equse the charge by meter might have an injurious effect upon the water account. It was now proposed to raise the rent from 10id. to Is. There were those on the committee who thought the water rate should not be raised ; but he had takea the opinion of several members that morning, and there was an impression that they might pass the 'report, leaving: the rate to be chargethfor the water for trading or manufacturing purposes to- be re considered. (Hear.) Another irregularity existed as to the rates paid by counting-houses and offices. There was not the uniformitiy . which ought to exist._ Some were in the habit of reeeiving'discounts—it was.difficUlt, perhaps, to explain . why ; and others did not., The committee thought iA desirable 'that all parties should be put upon an equality,—at all events, so fare as prac • ticable. Of coarse, in such large stacks of buildings as were close to them, and in Oldhall-street, it might be desirable to make a difference where the proprietors would pay the whole of the water rate, whether the offices were let or-not ; but the committee, thought that where there were- two or three offices, they should all be called upon to pay. Mr. WOODRUFF seconded the motion. 'Mr. Bownixo. asked upon what principle the several gradations of charges were made to different manu facturers? Mr. FAuxvzonTli said the difference arose in this way—The large consumers of water, including several of the railway companies, received a discount of 25 per cent. upon the shilling, which made the charge to them only 9d. _ _ _ _ _ - Mr. Alderman PARKER complained of the proposed rise in the price of watet, and said that he was paying 200 per cent. more than others, beCause he was supplied by meter, whilst others were charged by guess. • After some conversation, the proceedings (with the exception referred to) were confirmed ; as were also those of the Baths' 'Committee. The Coroner's account, for a month, amounting to lOs., was passed for payment, The Mayor's communications were then considered. RESIGNATION OF. MR. RA WESLEY A long letter was read from Mr. llawksley, resning the office of consulting engineer for the Rivington Water Works. This he appled to do on the ground.that the Water Committee had refused to indemnify him for the losses he had personally sustained by an action brought against him for arrears of salary, for services rendered to the Corporation, by Mr, Francis, one of the officers engaged by him. The following paragraph contains, perhaps, the pith of the whole letter : Now all these consequences, which will involve me in a lass amounting, as Y estimate it, to £4OO or more, were entirely brought about &by the action of the Corporation, and the conduct of their several water committees, and by no fault or default of my own; I had, therefore, a right to expect that the Corporation would hold me harmless in regard to pecuniary matters, although they did not, and would not (as I think they might most properly have done), save •me from the discredit, annoyance, and vexation of as action, osten sibly, and to the- priblie mind, brought against me as trough for money improperly and long withheld by me from Mr. Francis. I find, however, by a verbal communication made to me yesterday, by my solicitor, that the Water Committee have finally and formally repudiated'any and all legal and moral responsibility to me in this matter ; and hence, although I shall submit to the injustice (of which the monetary loss is the most insignificant part), if not with complacency, at all events with out complaint. I do not feel that I can, with respect to myself, continue fin the professional confidence or employment of a body, however eminent its position, with whom my connection is of so uncomfortable and dishonouring a character." The TOWN -CLERK, at the request of the , committee, had prepared a statement in reply, which he read, with the view of showing that the Corporation were not at all liable for the demand which Mr. Francis had made. Alderman HOLNIE remarked that Mr. Hawksley's letter contained some extraordinary charges. Mr. FARNWORTH moved that the resigation be ac cepted. Mr. JEFFERY seconded the mltian, which was unani mously agreed to. A letter was .next road from Mr. Wm. Massey, farmer, of Haughton, pointing out in strong terms the neces sity for some further provision being made than that afforded by Queen's-square, for those bringing vegeta bles and other agricultural produce to the market. THE QUESTION OF A SECOND STIFENDIA.RY w -as ith ex hi ec n e i d w in h g i l l Y e MAGISTRANE. The Town-clerk next read the further . report from the committee of the Liverpool Law Society, as to the appointment of a second stipendiary magistrate, which appeared in our columns a few days ago. Alate, lderman s Coaaid,ncilawlthouoludghbeiatr7 he 'Made a f e , R ► cornrow:OA upon the extraordinary leder which-had. been read to them, It Collid be shown that OCTOBER $, 1869: gentlemen who &Cyr' up' , that document faUst be :rant of the real facts; and there were some climes ie report which appealed= to have•been inspires by iictive feelings. Whet they stated that thus a surplus of £2,700 paid tter• from the police-cout to the borough fund, it was a fallacy ; and he id show that, on the contrary, there was an enormous . They seethed to forget that; the Council had pirchased land, and erected - buildingt . at a great cost, ler the administration of justice, and that the. Council, oil of the borough fund, .paid 'or the police of the tuvrli. Mr. Holme then submitted the fogowing state nient of expenditure : Paid Gas Comnany: for land „ for lancltidjoming, for the new bridewell £18,900 0 0 2,200 0 0 11,100 0 0 1 , ,5'40 0 0 19,600 0 0 35,000 0 0 51,600 0 0 £15,600 0 0 £2,280 0 0 300 0 0 2,918 10 11 5,635 11 11 £1,200 0 0 2,530. 0: 0 £630 11 11 £23;709 19 9 639 11 11 £✓3,070 7 10 Deduct for landito widen Hatton-garden, Net costor land - Total of contraes , for the new buildin,s, Deduct value of station .............. . ..... ....£5,000 0 0 Deduct building of section-bouse for land for fire polio Police force 4,000 0 0 Cost to the bartatgli fund .. Interest on the same at-5 ger cent.. Maintenance of orexnises, fire - insurance, &e Annual charge twthe borough, fund........ £2,580 0 0 There ,were also-, he said, the expenses connected with. kt. George's Hall, whiih he threw out of the account: Ist Septemt.er, 1857, to 31st August, 158 (the year alluded to in the' dociunent front-the Law Society} itoneived from mascistratest , clerks for fees eeived by them for magiaterial business._ nednet salaries, printing; and• stationery, •disbursements of yar_ort , sorts • „. 5,305.3 7 2,717 1 0 Midi received for fires and: sessions Cferk of 'the. Peace for pedalties Dednct poor fund £1, 5 7 -2 Ce 0 '• Collector's salary of towil dues 110; 0 0 , Ditto dock fines llO 0' 0 Net amount of fees and fines. Sulkinet to Mr. Mansfield's salczy;.. Interest on outlay forpremisesw:— Recbrtices salary Establishment of sessions house::.. To credit of borou,gl 2 10 11 5 0 , 0 3,M8 IP 11 Deficiency in the rates applicabl - sto the pay= of peliie expenditu: amount to credit Charge on the boroug!itftind The Thsw Society said the insult of their application would have been different; if - left - to the man ' s trates. He did.' not think o ; for at. one of the largatmeeting of magistrates—at the Licensing Session—he had inoote& the question, and not a siiagleobjection, had been raised to his views. Then came a. passage in the report which seemed to him of a most' vindictive character. They recommended that some representation should be made to- Government, for, the • purpose of effecting an alteratien,in the application of the surplus fluids. flow, what did that mean but this ?- 7 - 7 " As yore (the Council) do not intend to take our 'dictation„ wet,, having fOund a marers nest, will turn informers, and we will de prive the burgesses of those surplus• fees; but we will allow the corporation to tax.: the' public for the police-force, and to provide all' thei necessary build ings for- the administration of justice."' In reference to the last clause in the report, which spoke of the inability of the lay magistrates to deal with cases of civil chA'racter, Alderman llSlme expressed his belief there would be no objection. on-the part of the magistracy to remit all such eases to -Mr. Mansfield. He concluded by stating that-the report was virtually a denial to that council of the independent exercise of its functions. STEAINS denounced itms injudicious and dicta torial, as did also Mrd ..fefferyr,- and after some general conversation, it was ordered, on the motion of Alderman: Parker, seconded by Mr. Book.with, that the memorial' or report lie on the table.. " A memorial from Richard: MiacNeile, late officer of police, asking for an increase in the pension allowed: him, for being disabled on,. duty, *as referred to the- IN- - .itch Committee. DRIVING CATTLE TTIRDIMIE THE STREETS. - • Mr. GLADSTOn then moved.:thelollowing resolution,, of; which he had given notice To direct the atten tion of the . COUncil to the .necessity for framing proper hve-laws for the government of persons employed: m diving cattle in the borough and neighbourhood; for the appointment of a committee to consider the whole subject, and to report to, the Council." He said: the number of cattle imported each week into Liverpool averaged 3,000-head, and of sheep abont 10,000 or 11,000. These cattle. were driven through the , town, and there were no rules- as to the manner in which this should be done. A certain number of drovers should be in attendance, in proportion to the number of cattle driven; and it would' also be regarded as a lino, by butchers and dealers, if they were to determine wha t amount-of 'wages drovers should .be entitled tcafor their The - se cattle were often driven to the imnu nent danger of life, arid were often carried out from shippons •to the-field 'by email children, when they go t 'upon the footpaths, which they dirtied, and frighten ed ladies walkin g e , upon. them. The Town-clerk, s il l . investigating the subject, informed, him that they h a no power to make such bye-laws at present - ; but no thought they-should have a committee to. get up evi dence upon the , subject.. „ _ , motion, Dfi Council b a itt y he had n i n n a t t e e n l d y, e d in t o copsebrin g . GRAVES supported the Motion, and said for some time his, - mind had been directed to the subject. L ast -from town, he was unable 'to see , ,tho Town-clerk the day preview, to ascertain what pOwers they possesset. Ike .had deposited with the Town-clerk a notice oL. motion en•the subject, but through. -the omission to sigh, the notice book the notice was informal, and won have fallen through, had net Mr. Gladstone observed the omission, and very- considerately- placed upon. the book. a notice , of. - motion, so. identical with In s own, that he 'had . no difficulty whatever in second ing it. Whatever doubts he had in his own nli a .'; previously of the, propriety of' proceeding, fearing might be considered an unnecessary interference with t cl f ux.7ce ar o d f a absence valuable and important branch of the trade of the port' he had no' hesitation after he found that he sho uld receive the support of a practical geritlenian like' ini . Gladstone. Fle should not venture to trespass muc h which he should like -to place' before them that. lath hour, but he had ,gathered some evidence' Mr. Gladstone, .was _for seeking, for further • po wers t° deal with the matter. He (Mr. G.) had asked one o f the inspectors of the 'police to arrive "at some- satisfactosle 'computation -of the cattle which pass through t tl ' h streets, arriving from the chicks ; was good en c T g r , to place police -at the docks to' 'count the nurn.e_ A and the figures were 'higher than .Mr. Gladstone 114' arrived at. ffe found that on ThUrsday, Friday? Saturday, and Sunday last, 6,208 head of cattle arrive ( ' , 7,839 Slacep, and 3,036 pigs,,- r makjag,,altoge tber . e v :; those four dcvii 17,083 head ; and they were attende,_°. by only 200 drovers in their passage through the street' This was a proportion of one drover to , 85 head e cj, tle, sheep or pigs. It must be obvious to every ge er gc Man that it was impossible one drover "could take ce,4 of such a number. The railway traffic manager.role been consulted, and reported that this branch of .. t a' e f was increasing annually. There ivas a palle l l o d drovers compared with the number of cattle, the great evils arose from the incompetency o °, o o men, their cruelty, and negligence. ' 'He had 51iv9...0r especially' to that a proper route should bo laid down for cattle '1 :10 . 64 1 of th e and licensed. An officer had been placed in one the i r principal thoroughfares to assist drovers to kceS tv in through the streets, and that drovers should be ba cattle off the footpaths. There was a difde - 'gr. serving summonses upon offending . drovers._ was Graves proceeded to say that he thought thci e j a is, sufficient in the evidence of their own u ,, e to supported by their own every-day experien','ittee warrant , 'the Council' 'in 'granting' the • col ll— g ive which Mr. Gladstone had asked for ; and :, - this to that committee all the' powers necessary to the matter to ir satisfactory eonclusion,loy systematisdina'pre driving of cattle throughuur streets. They cadent for this; for, in London, they had a niaa set of bye-laws, which were found to answer row.. bly well. • . d The motion was, agreed to unanimouslY ; t. r - Gra vcs, Mr. GLA.DsroN'riiiamed,'as his committee, Mr, Shell, Mr. Corbally, May Beckwith, 21 ;ta,,T 7 - ,, a fter 3 The Council then adjourned at ave cltr , session of six,hQura, had nerfect