Northern Times. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1857-09-03 00:00:00

went which took place in the year 1856, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade introduced a measure which had for its object to confiscate the property of all the seaports in the kingdom without giving them any compensation. That measure excited so strong an opposition, and the injustice of depriving so many important c mmunities of their property without compensation was so loudly declaimed against, that the Government were under the necessity of withdrawing that iniquit,,us measure. And yet in the ensuing session of Parliament, the session of parliament which has just terminated, the House of Commons passed a measure with similar provisions, but directed only against the town of Liverpool, almost sub-silentio. Now, Mr. Mayor, although I must ever consider that this is a most arbitrary and unjust act, to the town of Liverpool, we must all admit, that, all things considered, the provisions which we have obtained are far better than those which we might have anticipated. (Hell, hear.) Considering that we had an adverse House of Commons, that we had the whole weight of the Government opposed to us, I think we are greatly indebted to the gentlemen who have devoted so much of their time and attention to the measure, and have suc ceeded in obtaining for the Corporation far better terms than we had any reason to expect. (Cries of Hear, hear.) But, Mr. Mayor, the principal debt of gratitude is due to the Town Clerk. (Hear, hear.) It is owing to his untiring diligence, to his great discretion, and the great ability and judgment he displayed throughout the whole of that arduous contest that we have obtained satisfactory terms. (Hear, and cheers.) In my opinion, not only the Council, but the whole community owe a deep and a lesting debt of gratitude to the Town Clerk. (Hear, and cheers.) In compliance, I believe, with the general feeling, not only in this Council Chamber, but throughout the town of Liverpool, the Finance Committee have come to a resolntion recommending the Council to grant to the Town Clerk £1,000; and in making that orant, we shall, in my opinion, not be conferring a favour, but discharging a debt of justice. (Hear, hear.) For my own part, I have very great pleasure in moving the reso'ution. Mr. Hornby conclude by reading the recommendation as given above. Mr. Alderman Holm:: I have equal pleasure, sir, in seconding the resolution. Mr. WOODRUFF: I have no doubt, sir, that it will be considered almost presumptuous of me to occupy the Council for even a few minutes in opposition to the recommendation which has just been made to vote a sum of £l,OOO to the Town Clerk, more especially when I am given to understand that a large majority, if not the entire of the Finance Committee have concurred in the recommendation, and I believe a large majority of the gentlemen present are already prepared to vote for it. In fact I know that before the proposition was consented to by the Finance Committee, members have been canvassed, and I have no doubt that the thing was made " all right" before it was proposed at all. (Cries of "No, no.") Well, sir, Ido know that members were canvassed, and I do know that I myself was canvassed. Mr. Alderman BOLD : By whom? Mr. WOODRUFF : By you, sir. Mr. Alderman BOLD : I never canvassed you, sir. Mr. WOODRUFF : I beg to say that you asked me for my vote at the corner of the Exchange seven or eight days ago, and you told me that I was the first who threw cold water upon the subject. Now, sir, I admit the force of every word which has fallen from the Chairman of the Finance Committee, as to the zeal, ability,•judgment, and perseverance displayed by the Town Clerk, and I think that no one can speak too warmly of the Town Clerk, and of the services he has rendered upon this and other occasions. Far be it from me to attempt to detract one moment from the great ability of that gentleman, or the energy and determination evinced upon his part to secure to the town of Liverpool, everything which Liverpool ought to have secured to her. It, therefore, must not be supposed in this room that any remarks I make use of are personal towards the Town Clerk, or meant to imply any want of ability on his part, or that he has not done hie duty and everything that could be done on the subject. But, if my memory serves me right, in 1847 there was a sum cf £5OO voted to the Town Clerk—for what ? For carrying through Parliament a bill with reference to the Water Scheme. If we are to go on thus, whenever a little extra exertion is required upon the part of the Town Clerk of Liverpool, voting away sums of Money, notwithstanding that the services may have been already most adequately remunerated, I contend that we are acting upon an unsound principle, and not dealing as we should with the money of the Burgesses. In June, 1853, an increase took place of £5OO a year, to the salary of the Town Clerk. I believe, sir, the principal reason given for that increase was, that it was known that this attack was about to be made upon our revenues, and that, in fact, the very commission to which Mr. Hornby has alluded, had eat and reported. The forthcoming storm and struggle were known, and the increase was made principally—at least, it then appeared conclusive to my mind, and to the minds of others—because of the great difficulties the Town Clerk would have to encounter, and the greatly increased exertions he would have to make. Anything less than he has done before parliament would have been a departure from that which we expected from him and from his duty ; and instead of having £l,OOO voted to him, he would then have been subject to our censure for a neglect of duty. If you go on voting sums of money because a man has done his duty, where are you to stop? Are you going to stop with the Town Clerk ? You have your Town Surveyor, a man of eminent ability, who wes occupied in London long enough neglecting his health and everything else. Is it to follow ? If you are to take others into consideration, let us have them alto gether. If you propose a vote of money only to one, you are unjust to others, and those others not so well paid as the Town Clerk. Sir, I deplore and regret, as every member of the Council must do, the attack which has been made upon our rights and privileges, and I believe a more unjust attempt was never made as regards ay public body. It, however, will largely relieve the Town Clerk of Liverpool from reTonsibilities and labours. Whilst admitting, therefore, most fully, everything which has been said in his favour, I contend that the continuance of the salary of £2,500 a year, when a great amount of the labour has ceased, willibe a suißcient equivalent for any additional services rendered during the peet struggle, and requires no vote now at your hands of any additional sum of money. I therefore prows() as an amendment—for which Ido not know whether I shall find a seconder or not— " That so much of the proceedings as refers to the pro posed vote of £l,OOO to the Town Clerk, be not con firmed." The amendment was not seconded. The motion was then pnt and carried amid loud applause. The proceedings of the committee were confirmed. The Tows CLERK here entered the room, and was received with loud applause. The Tows CLERK said : Mr. Mayor and Gentlemen,—l did not at all expect upon entering the room to be received in this manner I beg to return my warmest acknowledg :cents to the Council for the complimentary manner in which you have recorded your approval of my services, The question has been in agitation during these four years back, and duringthat time I have devoted my best energies, mental and physical, to the defence of the rights of the burgesses of this town against an unjust and unwarrantable attack. (Hear, hear.) I hope the arrangement which has been made will prove satisfactory to all parties, and will conduce to the continuance of the prosperity of the port of Liverpool, and to the interests of the people of Liverpool. (Applause ) WATCH COMMITTEE. The proceedings of this committee were read. The memorial of Mr. Robert Jones, bootmaker for the police force, praying that the contract price entered into by him m3y be increased, owing to the increased value of leather. Mr. J. B. BRANCKER observed, in reference to the memorial, that there was no doubt Mr. Jones had lost by the contract, but nei , her the committee nor the Council had any power to relieve him. The memorial was accordingly ordered to lie on the table. _ Mr. KITCHEN said he was reque3ted to ask what course would be pursued in reference to the numerous complaints of the non-lighting and zemoval of street lamps ? Mr. BRANCKER replied that they were forwarded to the chairman of the gas company, and he had no reason to doubt but they were attended to. The proceedings were then confirmed. The proceedings of the Dcck. St. George's Hall, and Mar kets, comprising—Recommendation to appoint Joseph Lloyd,collector at Gill-street market, to be a Leave Looker and Sanitary Inspector in the place of John Thompson, de ceased, at the salary of £lOO per annum,.being the same salary as his predecessor. Recommendation to appoint James Worthington,one of the Market Constables, collector at the pig market, at 265. per week wages, with the usual allowance of clothing Recommendation to appoint Thomas Roberts, P.C. 637, and James Messenger, P C. 778, Market Constables, at the wages of 223 a 'reek each, with the usual allowance . of clothing. Education, Gaol, and House of Correction ; Town Hall Establishment, Health, Gardens, (comprising recommend ation that the tender of Mr. John Rigby for painting at the Botanic Gardens, at the sum of £74, be accepted) Church Expenditure (comprising recommendation to accept the resignation of Mr. Evans, Organist of St. Martin'a Church) and Observatory Committees were read and confirmed. They contained nothing of interest. LIBRARY AND IfIIBEURY CODIACITTRZ. On the suggestion of Mr. Steams the proceedings of this Committee were allowed to take precedence of the Water Committee. They comprised : Recommendation to accept the tender of Messrs. froltne and Nicol for con structing the superstructure of the New Public Library and Museum at the prices therein usated. Becommeada. THE NORTHERN TIMES. LIVERPOOL, THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 3, 1857, tion to increase the wages of Thomas Formby, Assistant in the Library, from 20, to 25s per week. Mr. STEA.INS moved that the tender of Messrs. Holme and Nicol, for constructing the superstructure of the New Public Library and Museum, be accepted. He observed that several tenders were sent in, and that that of Messrs. Holme and Nicol was the lowest. The Surveyor approved of it ; and as he was anxious to get on with the work, there having been much delay in regard to it, the con tractors were instructed to proceed with it at once. There were twenty-five workmen employed on the site that morning, and the work was proceeding rapidly. Mr. KITCOEN seconded the motion, which was unani mously adopted. The other recommendation was postponed in accordance with the standing order. On the motion of Mr. Steainq ' seconded by Mr. Kitchen, Mr. Charles Mozley wa s e l ec t e d a member of the Committee in the rcom of Mr. Fleming. The general proceedings were then confirmed. WATER COMMITTEE. The proceedings of this Committee were read. They comprised the following reports from Mr. Duncan and Mr. Spencer, and letter from Dr. Angus Smith : REPORT OF MR. DUNCAN. To the Chairman 54 , the Water Committee. 29th August, 1857. Sir,—At a meeting of the Water Committee, held on the Ist instant, a communication from Mr. Fordred, respecting a process of filteration and discolouration which he desired to bring under the notice of the committee, was read. It was resolved—" That the engineer be authorised to test Mr. Fordied's plan of filtration. and report." In compliance with the above resolution, I have, for the information of the committee, to report as follows : Mr. Fordred has three methods First, by mixing pounded chalk with the water to be filtered, precipitating with the chalk the colouring matter, and then passing the water thorough a filter formed of sand and lime stone. The Second Method is similar to the first, the material used for precipitation being limestone, ground to fine powder and mixed with the water. The water being allowed to subside, is passed through a filter similar to that already described. The Third Method is to filter the water through granu'ar limestone. Another Method of filtration has been tried by myself. which consists of passing the water through sand, pounded cinders, or coke, and the lower part of the filter of a thin layer of limestone gravel. • It will be out of place to give more than the results obtained by the different methods. I shall therefore describe these as succintly as possible. First Method.—Results.—The water being allowed to remain at rest for twenty hours, after mixing with the chalk, was drawn off and passed through the filters. The brown tint of the Rivington water had almost passed away ; the water, however, presented an opalescent appearance ; this, in some measure, disappeared in twenty-four hours after filtration. Second Method.—Results.—In a less space of time than by the former method the pounelt•d limestone was precipitated, when the water could be drawn off and pissed through a filter, as in the case of the chalk mixture. The colouring matter had also, in a great measure, disappeared, and the water pre sented a very similar appearance to that obtained by the method first described. Third Method.—Results.—This has not been prosecuted to the same extent as the methods described above ; but from a small experiment the water obtained appeared fully equal in quality to that by meth o d s 1 an d 2. Fourth Method.—Rcsllts.—By this process, the water, after treatment, was equal in apparance and taste to the best quality by either of the three of Mr. Fordred's methods, with this advantage, that it contained less lime, and consequently maintained nearly its original softness, with an equal degree of absence of colour. First Method.—As respects the first method of Mr. Fordred, a few statements will be sufficient to show that it is altogether impracticable on a large scale. From the experiments made I deduce the following facts : Ist. The rate of precipitation will not be greater than three feet deep during twenty-four hours; consequently the depositing tanks could not be advantageously made of a greater depth than from three to four feet. The area for settling ponds for one day's supply would be equal to nearly fifteen acre?, and that thirty acres of land would be necessary to construct such works as would be required to comply with this proposition. Secondly. That the weight of chalk required for one day's supply, taking it at one-fourth of the quantity used by Mr. Fordred in his experiments, would amount to 87 tons ; and the cost would amount, at a moderate calcu l ation, to from al) to £7O per diem, or an annual expenditure of about £23,725. This is altogether apart from the labour required. More need not be said on this head. Second Method.—The second method may, with the excep tion of the land necessary for the works, which I set down as one-half that required by the chalk process (the rate of precipi tation by that process being twice that of chalk) would, in other respects, be very similar, the daily, cost of material I believe, from observation, to be equal to that required for; the chalk process, and, therefore, its further consideration is an unnecessary waste of the time of the committee. Third Method.--This third proposal would involve an entire reconstruction of the filter beds at R:viugton, as it is there the new works are suggested to be placed. I estimate an outlay of £30,000 to be necessary before the works could be rendered available for process No. 3. With the fact before me that the water so treated would become harder by several degrees than the Rivington water in its natural condition, I have concluded that this scheme is not such as recommends itself for adoptiop. By the Fourth Method, the filtration would be carried on without disturbing the Rivington works, the operations being proposed to be carried out in Liverpool, adjoining the present reservoirs. The materials that wound effect the discolouration of the water are cheaper and more easily applied than by any of the other methods suggested—but even this method would ba attended with a large annual cost. It would, however, possess the advantage of simplicity, and could be worked more economically than either of the others suggested. From my own observation, and all I can learn, I have come to the following conclusions respecting the state of the water at Rivington. The water has now been impounded in the Anglesark Reser voir for nearly 20 years. On my last visit to the works I observed, with regret, that the water was as deeply tinged, if not more so, than ever I had seen it before. I also observed that the , water passing through the filter fteder into the filter beds was in colour as dark as any I had previously noticed. When the upper works are completed, the average quern) , of the water may be mended ; but I cannot conceal from the committee my conviction that the water will not be so much improved by time as will render it agreeable to the inhabitants of Liverpool, in so far as colour is concerned, so long as its treatment is by simple sand filtration; Doubtless the water, by standing in the reservoir, does to some extent improve, and the time may come when it may improve more than at present ; but the scource of impurity are on the hills from whence the waters come, and not alone in the reservoirs where they aro stored. Therefore, unless the scources are purified, the streams f om the hills must continue to send into the reservoirs coloured waters, which ordinary sand filtration is ,only capable of modifying, and not of remedying. _ _ _ =, Another point which I most respectfully beg to direct the attention of the committee is, that in consequecca of the dis tance between the works at Rivington and Liverpool, the water assumes an appearance more brown than when it leaves the equalising tanks at Rivington. IVfr. BouloB letter to the chairman respecting the presence of animalcu're leads me to notice that the open reservoirs aro favonrablo to the develop ment of organic life; and that, in spite of the utmost care that can be exercised, aninialcu'ms do and will find their way into the cisterns and pipes connected with the storage and distribution in Liverpool. These facts lead me to state further my conviction that if anything is to be done to improve the Rivington water, it must be accomplished at the Liverpool end, immediately before it is passed from the home reservoir for the use of the inhabitan's. The committee are aware that, from the introduction of the Rivington water up to the present time, the water distributed has been mixed (slightly varying in proportion), the state of the Rivington water and the unfinished condition of the works rendering it unadvisable to supp'y the town from that source alone. A larger quantity of the water from the local wells has been pumped than would have been necessary had the colour of the Rivington water been less deep—consequently, the contemplated saving on its introduction, however desirable, cannot be effected ; at the same time the Rivington expenses remain unaltered, except in a very insignificant degree. It appears to me to be highly desirable to adopt one of the courses which present themselves for election, so as to enable the committee to supply to the inhabitants water in i.s best possible condition, at the same time to reduce the expenditure on the water account. Recommendations.—First. I beg, therefore, to point out for the consideration of the committee, and I do so after having examined, to the best of my ability, till various bearings of this most important q ue sti on , t o institte such a system of filtration at Liverpool as will improve the colour of, and render the Rivington water alone sufficiently clear and palatable for all purposes, domestic, public, and manufacturing; or. Secondly. To adopt the alternative of laying a separate system of pipes for the supply of unmixed water from the wells for table uses, preserving the Rivington water for those pur poses for which it is best adapted, and thus place Liverpool iu the foremost rank as respects a water supply. My views as to the latter scheme are already before th? committee and the Council. and I see no aeason for changing the amounts necessary to carry it out. In conclusion, I beg to remark that, in my opinion, the latter is the best of the two plans; for, doubtless, the time will arrive when all the water which can be procured at home and from Rivington will be required, The end desired in mixing the water has been to improve the colour of that from Riving ton; certainly, apart from its colour, neither the one or the other are improved by that operation, but by a separate system of piping distribution all difficulties would vanish, except those of finance, and these can only remain, with our present rate of increase, for five years, as by that time the revenue from water will be sufficient to meet the new expenditure. The present deficiency will, it is calcula ed, be mot by the saving arising from diminished station expenses.—l am, sir, your obedient servant, Taos. D ONCAN. REPORT OF MR. SPENCER. Rivington, August 28, 18.57, To tie Chairman of the Water Committee. Sir,—The resolution of the Water, .Committee of the 22nd instant requesting a report to be rendered by Mr. llawkesley, Dr. Smith, and myself on the 29. h, in reference to the Rivington water, reached me here on the 27th, I being absent from London when it arrived at my residence. As regards myself, were the experiments with which I have been engaged, since my last report, altogether completed, the shortness of this time would have prevented me from detailing them fully, 'Those, however, with reference to the use of the magnetic protoxide of iron, are so far complete, as to make their application a question for the engineer to determine on their practicability and cost on a large scale. This will be more apparent when I state that the employ ment of this substance, or, indeed, that of any other which will effect the decolorisation of water, will involve a distinct mode of filtration, differing in principle from that practised where water is oought to be freed from mechanical impurity only. Independently of the plans I wati'd suggest to the engineer —my experiments fully warrant me in stating that the tinge of colour now contained in the Riving:on water may be altogether removed by the employment of a small proportion of the above-named oxide mingled with the ordinary filtering sand. All the rest remains with the engineer. The engineering part of the plans 1 contemplate have been already named in outline to Mr. Hawkesley, but since arriving at more matured conclusions with regard to them, his length ened absence in the north of Europe has prevented me from entering on them with him as *o their mechanical and mone tary details. As regards myself, I cm see no difficulty to their application in either respect on the most extended scale. At the same time I need hardly add that your adoption of this or any other plan must rest wits► the favourable report of the engineer. I may as far state here, however, that I am fully impressed with the necessity of having the decolourising filter beds—if I may so call them—situated close to the source of distribution, at or near to Kensington. There are a variety of reasons in support of this opinion. Besides which, the same locality would apply not only to the employment of oxide iron in the process, but to that of any other substance which may be found to effect the object in question. I have to state, in conclusion, that, in the course of my ex per;ments, I have met with several substances besides those named in my former report, more or loss capable of decolouris• ing water, thong's I consider the former by far the best. Among the latter I may mention a sandstone, met with in Sornersetshire and Devonshire, which contains a large per cen'age of protoxide of iron. Also, an ironstone, found at the Ebbto Vale Iron Works. Crystalised limestone (carbonate of lime) will reject the same object, The crystalised chalk precipitated from the hard water at the Piumstead Water Works, near Woolwich, 'effects the same object. This substance is, in fact, a limestone in powder. Chalk limestones that are not crystalised have little or no effect except in large and impracticable quantities. This I have fully ascertained by the result of experiments made with chalk whiting at Riving ton.—l have the honour to be, sir, your very obedient servant, Joseph Cooper, Etq. THOMAS SPENCER. .-..-. FROM DR. ANGUS SMITH. Sir,—As I answered in the committee. room several questions about the Liverpool water, and the committee were in great haste, it may possibly happen that words may be quoted not exactly bear ing my meaning. I therefore send the following:- 1. I have never thoroughly examined the Liverpool watet, supply, and never, of course, reported on it ; I never saw the water as it comes into the to wn; what I have seen in the hotels is filtered, 2. I have seen the reservoirs and filters. During the cool weather, at the beginning of summer, th e water was such as to make me surprised at the vile character attributed to it by some persons, but I accounted for this by supposing it to be hurt on its passage. If it were supplied constantly in the condition in which it was in early summ-r, there would be no rational objection to it, although it is desirable to have it colourless. 3. During the autumn the water has become very Bark, and, as it now is, may fairly be complained of as unpleasant to drink and to look at. I am inclined to think also that some persons may be injured, especially if they take a dislike to it, and ara readily affected ; but, I am not a medical man. 4. I think steps ought to be taken to remove this evil permanently, at present it is occasional. If it suits private persons to have filters to remove the c , lonr, would It not be cheaper to have these filters, made by the public, even if animal charcoal were employed ? I do not suppose such an expensive substance ne-d be recommended, but a new and of filter is a moat desirable thing. 5. I believe there is no need of haste in deciding. I have always found that, as soon as the cool weather begins, the water from these hills become colourless, or nearly so. It is probable, therefore, that, in a few weeks, the water will be such as to furnish no sound cause of complaint, or urgent change. Ido not think. it fair to judge from is condition during thefirst winter. 6. Viewing the ground generally, I cannot suppose that all the water from that district is brown even in autumn; and I know for a certainty, that many of the streams are 45 fine as can be desired; might not the brownest bs allowed to run past the reservoir daring the time that the colour lasts ? But this, and a few other remarks may be left to the a❑gineer. 7. As the relation of the water to lead, such fears may be entirely dissipated, if lead cisterns are accorded, and the lead piping made as short as possible. 8. Even if the water wore not improved for a Paw years, I believe it would be a small hardship, if it be correr, that the deep colour and taste are only occasional as I believe. Until public means be adopted for its removal, it cannot be a great hardship that private families who dislike the colour should use, as at present, their own filters. A little experience and calm inquiry will point out the way to proceed. Filtering completely removes the colour, and the water is faultless. Can this be done on a large scale ? 9. To give up even partially, as has been proposed, a great and magni , cent work from such insufficient objections as I have seen, and without a struggle to remove there, does not seem to me at all wise. I may add one thin; which strikes me. When any information is wanted on the m 'Ater, a number of men are called in, at great expense, and their opinion obtained en the condition of things at the moment- Now these conditions are constantly changing—the water is scarcely three clays alike. If you want a thorough knowledge of it, it could /Je obtained boot by appointing a person to examine it once or twice a week, perhaps every day, for a year, and to make every possible ex periment with it. After that time it sh mid be examined at longer intervals. It is worth the trouble, and such a report wo,xld be of more value thaa that of a col:ection of the most eminent chemists given hastily on a mere examination of specimens. It w rad also cost less money than is now frequently paid when several persons Li'a suddenly called in, It might form part of the doily work of some person residing In Liverpool.—l am, sir, your obedient servant, ItOBT. ANGUS SMITH. Mr. Shuttleworth, 20, Devonshire-street. Manchester, 30th Aug., 1857. Mr. Alderman COOPER, in moving the confirmation of the proceedings, said that within the last week the propor tion of Rivington to well water had been as two to three, and in the week preceding as four to three. As to the re ports that were just read, the committee had not had time to consider them, and they therefore recommended the Coun cil to refer them back for the purpose. It was very true that the filtration, as far as it went, did not meet the views of the committee, but they hoped that means would be devised for its improvement. Mr. Alderman CIIILTON seconded the motion. Mr. Alderman BENNETT said that before the debate took place, he wished to call the chairman's attention to a resolution in the proceedings, which, he apprehended, was passed inadvertently. At the last meeting of the commit tee there were two bills before them from Mr. Spencer, and they were so unsatisfactory to the committee that it was determined not to pass them until they were certified by Mr. Hawkesley. They both refer[ed to the Rivington works, but he saw by the proceedings that one of the bills, amounting to upwards of £lOO, had been passed, no doubt, inadvertently. He would move that it be not paid until further investigated. Mr. Alderman COOPER explained that there were two bills before the committee which were not certified, the one having reference to Mr. Duncan, and the other to Me. Hawkesley. When Mr. Duncan was directed to make experiments on the water, he employed Mr. Spencer, and it was to Mr. Spencer's bill that Mr. Bennett alluded. The bill was, however, certified by Mr. Duncan, and was therefore passed by the committee. Mr. Alderman BENNETT : His it been paid ? Mr. HODSON : By this time it has been paid in due course. - (Laughter.) Mr. Alderman BENNETT observed that he would have the matter investigated in committee. Mr. Alderman PARKVIt observed that there was no doubt that the gentlemen who advocated the Pike scheme from the first, were new, in their own minds, convinced that it was a failure. He appealed to Mr. Alierman Holme if it were not so. They admitted that they wore wrong in their judgments, and he hoped they would not now persist in opposing anything that would tend to a gratis: factory settlement of so important a question. He pre sumed that the Mr. Spencer from whom they had the report, was Mr. Spencer who was so active when the scheme was being got up, but he would ask where was the reat Mr. Hawkesley ? Mr. Alderman COOPER : He is in Stockholm. (Laughter.) Mr. Alderman Froooo4od to say that he gave every credit to Mr. Duncan for his honest and straight forward report ; but he w Add ask, why had they not a report from•Mr.Hawkesley, who received the commission ? After Mr. Duncan's report, and after the experience they had had of the water, he (Mr. Parker) was prepared to second Mr. Jeffery's proposition for a second line of pipes. There shoull be a separate distribution of the two waters, and with that view he would move, as an amendment, that it be an instruction to the Water Committee to supply the inhabitants 'With spring water, without any admixture of the Rivington water. Mr. J R. JEFFERY seconded the motien, in order that a debate might take place on the subj. et. Mr. ROBERTSON said that Mr. Parker took it for granted that all the advocates of the Pike scheme now conceded that it was a failure. He (Mr. Robertson) for one, was not of that opinion. It was said that the water was a failure for drinking purpose, but he would not sub scribe to that opinion until every means to render it unobjectionable had proved of no avail. It was proved, by the course pursued by Mr. Radley at his hotel, that it was successfully filtered in small quantities, and he did not eee why it could not be equally successfully treated in large quantities. Mr Robertson then referred to the water supply of Greenock, and said, that at first it was as objectionable as the Rivington water. Proper means for its filteraticn were, however, adopted, and it was now considered the first water in the kingdom. The water was first forced up through the filtering beds, and then allowed to fall through them, but in the Rivington filter beds, a great quantity of water flowed into the pipes without being at all filtered. He mentioned the matter to Mr. Duncan, and he thought they should first try every mode of fllteration before laying down a second line of pipes, which would be objectionable, not only on account of the expense, but because the owners of property would not carry the second pipes into their houses. Gentlemen might do it, but the cottage owners would not, and he was satisfied that the lower classes of the people were perfectly satisfied with the water. Mr, GODFREY : No, no. Mr. ROBERTSON: He meant to say for drinking pur poses. But how much water did such people drink in their houses ? They drank more ale there. Mr. GODFREY : More now, because they have the "Pike." Mr. ROBERTSON continued to say that he did not con sider the scheme a failure, and that they should not give it np until they had first tried every means of improving it. Mr. J. R JEFFERY said that in the month of Msy the Council passed a resolution that the water then supplied to the population of Liverpool was unfit for die etic pur poses. (Cries of " No, no.") Mr. C. TURNER " Unsatisfactory" was the term. Mr. JEFFERY continued : What was the meaning of " unsatisfactory," as applied to water, if it did not mean that the water was unfit for use, and jeopardised health. In the month cf May that resolutron was passed. In July, a memorial was received from forty laundresses, declaring that for their purposes the water was highly injurious, and that fine linens were discoloured from the use of the water. What means did the Water Committee take to remedy those evils ? Why, they allowed themselves to be seized hold of by a gentleman who very much resembled a midge, because of the tenacity with which he stuck to the Committee from their first creation, and who had received much of the public money to the benefit only of himself — he alluded to Mr. Spencer. On a future day, he (Mr. Jeffery) would call for an account of the sums received by that gentleman for his experimants on the water. Well, what did the Committee do since May to improve the water for dietetic purposes Positively nothing but squander the public money, and they now came forward, and after the bill, which they drew upon time, had been over and over again dishonored, they had still the boldness to ask for another renewal. He was opposed to renewals, and he would not grant the request. The water was only condemned for dietetic purposes, and he did not want them to cast it away altogether. Far otherwise ; he wanted that they should apply it to sani tary and such manufactoring purposes as it may be found adapted to, but give the inhabitants for table use, the old pure rod sandstone water. (Hear hear.) He had no hope whatever from the present committee. (Hear hear ) They were a body of gentlemen, against whom, taken individually, nothing could be said disparagingly, but when they got into committee, they adhered together in a way which it was impossible to comprehend. It was said that the poor seldom drank water, but would they find the proof of that in the numbers of people who drank at the public fountains which were so benevolently erected by Mr. Melley ? Ho was just handed a re tarn which showed ' that in April 2,308 drunk at the Prince's dock fountain in 12 hours and 20 minutes; and in June, at St. James's fountain, 3,340 drank in 12 hours and 15 minutes. It might be said, "if the water be so bad how can you account for so many people drinking it ?" (Hear, hear.) But he would reply that even were it much worse the people would drink it, and for the simple reason that they had no other. In conclusion, then, he would ask them whether, after the report which the engi neer had recorded in the books, they would take upon themselves the responsibility of going on any farther in the course which they had hitherto pursued ? The water was condemned by their own officer in its mixed state, and what, he would ask them, was the just inference, but that it was much worse in its natural state. (Hear, hear.) He *might of them,then,as they valued their fellow creatures, and as they valued the responsibility .which devolved on them as legislators, to change their course, and to prevent the water in its present state being supplied to the in habitants for any longer period than was indispensably necessary. Ho would support the experiment of supplying the town with spring water three days a week, because he was anxious to meet the wishes of all, and still more anxi ous about the enormous expense having been incurred in a great public work that they should adopt what was good in it, and reject what was bad. (Rear, hear.) Mr. Hopson said that, in his mind, there was not the slightest change as to the character or colour of the water ; but, after the remarks of Mr. Jeffery, and knowing the exaggerated feeling on the subject out of doors, he would himself move an amendment—that the spring water be supplied three days a week. He should maintain, how ever, that a fair chance had not been given to the Riving ton water. The works ware the largest in the kingdom, and though in smaller works the water had taken a year or two to clear, here it was expected that it should at the first come pure and clear through rusted pipes into the town. (gear, hear.) The same objection existed at first in regard to the Greenock water as now prevailed towards the Bivingten water, but the Greenock water was now the bast in the kingdom. Their collecting ground was the same as Windermere, where the water was pure and clear. Mr. GODFREY : But the Windermere people dont't drink it. Tar. HODSON : That was of no consequence. (Laughter.) It was a singular fact that, notwithstanding the poisonous character of the Rivington water, the town WAS never more healthy for the last ten years than during the present summer. He drank the water largely himself, and felt no ill effects from it. Mr. BECKWITH: I believe you. (Laughter.) They don't give you credit, doctor, for drinking your water uncoloured. (Great laughter.) Mr. Honsox reiterated his opinion as to the healthy character of the present water, and said that the time would come when they would be blessed for having brought so abundant a supply into the town. Mr. J. A. TINNR said that if the council had paid attention to the minutes of the committee, they would Fee that this matter wit; just now wider consideration in the only way in which, as a matter of business, it could be considered. They had referred it to the engi neer to report to the committee the cost of laying down a double system of pipes through the whole district which they were bound to supply, and was it not advisable that they should wait for that report ? When the report which had been just read was brought before the committee, he was in favour of its being placed on the minutes, in order that the council and the public might be informed of it ; but, at the same time, he held that the committee required further information before they could deal with it in a busines manner. (Hear, hear.) Mr. WOODRUFF referred to the letter of Dr. Angus Smith, and appealed to the Council to let reason have weight in the matter, and to allow the committee to report on the subject, as they promised and contemplated. He was satisfied that the inhabitants would not sanction any extreme course on the present question, particularly if it led to a large outlay of money, unless that expense was shown to be absolutely necessary. Besides, they could not incur any large expense in the matter without the sanction of an Act of Parliament, and they should therefore allow the committee to carry out the resolution they had come to—namely, to obta , n from Mr. Duncan an estimate of the cost of a second line of pipes, and the system of filteration proposed by him, and than to report on the whole matter to the Council. Mr. Alderman BENNETT said " time, time," had been the cry of the Water Committee ever since the Ist of January. That the Water Committee had been deceived, and that the Water Committee had deceived the Town Council, he did not think any member of the committee would be bold enough to deny. Mr. Timm thought the express ion " had deceived," had too mach of a personal character. It was capable of a construction -which he should not like to have applied. Mr. JZFFERY : He said the committee have been de ceived. Mr. Alderman HoLmE : And have deceived. Mr. Totiqx : I understood him to say that the Water Committee had deceived the public. Mr. Biravtarr said, if he had not been interrupted, he thought his explanation would Iwo niggled Kr, Tian*, and every other member, that he did not intend any per sonal observation. Eighteen months ago the Water Com mittee, to a man, were under the impression that within a few months from that time the Eivington water would be in Liverpool, and would, to a very great extent, supersede the expensive pumping ey3teca then in use. It was with great difficulty that a resolution was passed about that time by the Councl to put down an additional engine in Green-lane, the objection b ing, that in a few mouths they would have the Rivington water, and the expense would be thrcevn away. Towards Nevember there was some hesitation about ente'ing into a new contract for coals, as it was thought that for the same reason the working of engines to any extent would be soon discon tinued. How was it p.ssible to put any other construction upon these facts than that the committee ware deceived— that they were under a wrong apprehension that the water j would be in Liverpool in a short time after, and would be I of that quality that it would supersede the necessity of pumping ? (Hear, hear.) In reference to the speakers who had preceded him, he contendei that the filtration process adopted by Mr. Radley, as stated by Mr. Robertson, would not apply to a large town. It was most unfortunate for the promoters of the Rivington scheme that the Rivington water was good for very little indeed. Even when mixed half with spring water, it was objected to for bathing. The Chairman of the Bath's Committee was compelled to order spring water, as the baths would cease to be pro fitable, for people would not bathe in them. In washing they were told that the boiling of the water extracted so much colour from the peaty m Ater, that the linen was dyed a light yellow, and de'icate fabrics were altogether spoiled. A sugar-boiler connected with one of the largest establishments in town, told him that the water was quite unsuitable for the purposes of his trade, and that they prayed for the spring water back again. The uses to which it was applicable were very few indeed, such as watering the streets, flushing the sewe's, the hydraulic hoists, and putting out fires For those purposes a very short extent of pipes indeed would suffice, and the spring water might be used again for its legitimate purposes. Allusion had been made to the Geeenock scheme. He happened to ba well acquainted with that scheme. The water-shed was as different from o:r shed as a slate roof differed from a manured field. The water shed of Gi'eenock was bare and craggy rock, and the water came down into the reservoir with a very slight colour indeed. The water engineer's report was a most valuable document, and did Mr. Duncan infinite credit. It was written evidently after great deliberation, and with a thorough knowledge of the subject, not hastily obtained, but spread over a series of some years ; and he believed every portion of it had ben penned with extreme care and truthfulness. (Hear, hear.) That report told them that the water in the reservoir was now as bad as it ever had been, and that after the water in one of the reservoirs had been impounded for nearly two years. The engineer told him (Mr. Bennett) that he had seen shoals of fishes generaeed by the extreme heat in the shallow water of the filter beds. A Tegal question had been started as to the power of the Committee to supply the town with spring water and other portions of the district included in the act of Parliament with the Rivington water. He had to inf nen members that the same thing, to a limited extent, was done now. They were givi n g th e people on the line of the Rivington pipes Rivington water, while themselves were enjoying tlie privilege of half-spring water. (" No no.") Mr. HODSON : I must protest against this. We are doing no such thing. Let Mr. Bennett state what is correct. Mr. BE' NETT said, at a recent meeting of the Committee, Mr. Hornby asked the water engineer what water he get at his house in Wavertree, and the engineer told him it was Rivington water unmixed with any spring water. Mr. HORNBY : I have no recollection either of having asked such a question or cf having received such an answer. (Loud laughter.) Mr. BENNETT said the question was certainly asked. Mr. LIVINGSTON said he could explain the matter. Mr. Hornby asked, did he gat the Rivington water, and Mr. Duncan said he did. Mr. BENNETT said, the engineer said the supply Mr. Hornby got was altogether Rivington, or very nearly so— some days altogether Rivington, and some days there might be a little spring water. No doubt people further out would get nothing but Rivington. He thought the best thing that could be done would be to confine the Rivington water to a few large and general purposes, and to put down more powerful engines, on the Cornish princi ple, to enlarge the reservoirs of the wells, and to obtain an abundant supply from the spring sources for all dietetic purposes. He was strengthened in that view by Mr. Hawkesley himself, who recently told the committee that he had never doubted or denied that there was an ample and abundant supply of spring water for Liverpool under their feet. He thought it could be shown by figures that it would be true economy, and in every respect to the advantage cf the town, to increase the engine power for home supply, and to use the Rivington water as little as . possible. He declared that he would not give half-a-crown in the pound for what the Rivington scheme had cost. They had been told from time to time that there were individual capitalists willing to form a company to purchase the works. He most heartily wished that those spirited individuals would come f vvrard. For his share, he would gladly forfeit all the scheme had coat for 2s. W. in the pound which he believed to be about the true value. That the Rivington water ever would be palatable to the people of Liverpool, no one, he felt sure, could seriously believe. (Hear, hear.) MR. BANNER observed that the expense of experiments in filtration would amount to as much as the cost of a double net of pipes, (to, no, and lifter, hear.) and there fore he thought that the sooner they looked at that alternative the better. He was a little surprised to hear now that Mr. Hawkesley alleged he had never denied the sufficiency of the wells to supply the town. Why the very foundation of the Pike scheme WA:3 the statement of Mr. Hawkesley of the inability of the wells to supply the town with a sufficient quantity of water, and that statement ho meintaineei despite the counter statements of Mr. Wickstead and of another man equally conversant with the subject, but whose name was now distasteful in the council ; he alluded to Mr. James McDonald. Mr. Kenuedy also maintained the eufficien sy of the wells, and yet they wet() now told that Mr. Hawkesley, whose state ment to the contrary was the very foundation of the scheme had never denied it. He (Mr. Banner) was much surprised at the statement, and he ventured to say that it did not agree with the fact. Mr. HALL said the question they should now consider was how they could turn the water to the best account'? (Hear, hear.) He should advocate delay, because the committee intended to tusks a full report to the cooncil, and when they had that report before them they would be able to form a judgment as to what would be most advisable under the circumstances. It appears d to him that, without making a large use of the Revington water for many purposes it would be impossible ade quately to supply the town, so numerous was its population becoming. Mr. Joni.; Srewaier said the Council chamber was not the place to lay down a plan by which the wishes of the inhabitants could be carried out, as to the laying down of a second set of pipes. He was willing to leave it to the committee, and for them, with the aid of the engineer, to report to the Council en the best and cheapest way in which the inhabitants could be supplied with spring water for drinking and dietetic purposes. Ho confessed that ho was not at all satisfied with the water, nor did he believe that any filtration would ever make it as acceptable for drinking purposes as the sand-stone water. (Hear, hear ) It should be to the committee, as it was to him and the inhabitants generally, a great discouragement that a scheme, intended to be a highly beneficial one, had proved a failure, but so it was. He regretted that it had not answered the purpose which the promoters of the scheme honestly wished to obtain ; but he did not agree with those who recommended the casting away of the Pike water altogether. He was no advocate for it, but yet, for many purposes it was preferable to the well water, and to those purposes he would wish to see it applied. He was told that it would be clear in two years, but he was too old to wait that time, and in the meantime be would prefer to pay even some thing considerable for good water for table purposes. Ho was willing that the question should go back to the com mittee with that expression of the Council's wishes, and that they should report to the Council as to the best mode of supplying the inhabitants with spring wa`er. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Alderman HOWIE said, unwilling as he was, and always had been, to protract the discussion upon that question, he yet could not permit the debate to close with out one or two remarks. His friend at the left (Mr. Stewart) had anticipated him in suggesting the course which the Water Committee ought to take, that they should give tho subject their serious consideration, and come before the Council with some definite plan. If those who advoca‘ed the scheme from the first—and it was a majority of the Council a hich adopted it—had made a mistake, they had surely made a most ample atonement in having had to listen to the nearly eighty dreary speeches which had been delivered by his fiend Mr. Bennett, at that table. (Laughter.) Mr. Banner had just made one or two remarks to which he begged to make a brief reply. That gentleman had alluded to the fact of Mr. Hawleosley having reported that a sufficiency of water could not be got from the wells. He (Mr. Holme) could, if it were necessary, carry the Council back to the period when me morials were poured in upon them from the inhabitants of Liverpool, complaining that it was utterly impossible for them to get a supply of water from the old corapsnial, Ono 'as signed by 2,000 persona, and begun from Castle-street, and he himself saw the namod of nearly all the shopkeepers of the leading streets in that quarter signed to it. The cottage owners held a meeting upon the subject, and public meetings were held 1 in all directions, and an outcry raised everywhere for a supply cf water. The Wat er C omm i t t ee o f t h at d ay too k into their consideration the reports of a number of distin guished men It was given is evidence iu the House of Commons that the sinking in Soho-street took water from Walton ; and a number of persons came forward and stated, that whereas they had had large supplies o f goo d s p r i n g water previously, the pumping by the companies had de prived them of all, If it had not been for the Corporation themselves sinking in Green-lane, and tapp'ng a new spring, tke town would have been virtually without water, because the old wells of the company were not only almost exhausted themselves, but had exhausted the supplies of private individuals in other parts of the town. There was a time when cholera was raging, and when there was a constant complaint that disease was spreading, because it was impossible to get water to flush their sewers and cleanse their streets. It was pressed upon the Council Lrgely, not only by the inhabitants generally, but by a number of benevolent gentlemen who went about making inquiries and giving lectures, that it was impossible to stop the progress of disease, not only of cholera, but of fever, in the various neighbourhoods, because it was necessary that they should have an ample supply of water which the companies at the time could not give. At the present moment his own house at Mossley.hall, was left without one drop of water in a well sixty yards deep ; and by the continuous pumping at Windsor, an upper well which his tenants had of beautiful spring water had ran dry. The Council had had an ample report from Mr. Cunningham, (he was almost afraid to mention that gentleman's nixie now); and they had a report from Mr. Rawlinson, who recommended them to go to the Bala Lake. He (Mr. Holmes) was prepared to take the full responsibility of his share in the Rivington scheme. Although he would freely confess that the colour of the water had disappointed him, and to some extent the quality also, yet, a t th e same ti me , h a contended that it was a great blessing to the public, and he wantqd to know upon what other principle than that of getting a supply from such a source as Rivington, or from some river -head, it would be possible to get seventy millions of gallons of water into the town of Liverpool in the way the committee had been able to pour it in ? The amendment proposed by Mr. Parker was a perfect absurdity. He utterly ignored the Rivington works altogether, while all the various gentlemen who spoke admitted that having got those works they must use them. Gentlemen must recol leat that the upper reoervoir was not yet completed, and, as in Leicester and other places, the works would require time. He reminded the Council also that the water, in the present condition of the works, had been just submitted to the severest possible test in the exceedingly hot summer which was passing over them. He declared that he did not desire to oppose the general wish of the inhabitants. If the body of the inhabitants desired to have the well water to drink, he would do the best he could to aid in carrying out that object in the most economical manner possible. But when the council jumped at a resolution, such as that of ignoring altogether works which had cost so much money, abandoning so magnificent an undertaking, then ho said the council was interfering in what it really did not understand, and that the only sen sible course they could pursue, was that pointed out by Mr. Stewart, that the committee should take the whole subject into consideration, let the engineer report, let them see what was best to be done, and come before the council with something like a deta led account of what cost they were going to plunge into. (Hear, hear.) He strongly urged the council not to go headlong. into any rash under taking at that moment when the:public mind was in such a state, lashed as it had been by one, and he was happy to say only one, of the Liverpool newspapers, for that was the way in which the thing had been stirred up. He urged them not to pull up their magnificent pavements, and embark in an outlay of perhaps half a million of money without knowing whether such an undertaking would be at all justified by the circumstances. He contended that the Rivington water could, in any case, be turned to the greatest advantage, and he called upon the Council, instead of quarrelling, to join heart and hand in endeavouring to employ it with the utmost benefit. For himself, although he thought there would be many difficulties in having a double line of pipes, yet, if such were the positive wish of the majority of the inhabitants, he would give every aid in his power to have the object attained in the cheapest and most satisfactory manner. (Cheers.) Mr. AIKI NT expressed his approval of the medium course proposed, and stated that if the amendments already proposed were not carried, he would propose an amendment to the effect " that time be allowed for the Water Committee to consider and report upon the com munication of Mr. Duncan and the others. and to receive such further information as they might deem necessary to enable them to report thereon to the Council, at their earliest convenience ; and that it be an instruction to them to report at the same :time on the practica bility, and, if practicable, the cheapest and best mode of supplying the well water:for drinking purposes, and the Rivington water for other purposes, pending the further time and trial which are demanded before deciding upon VE, two sets of pipes." Mr. Alderman PARKIER withdrew his amendment in favour of that proposed by Mr. Aikin. Mr. liizenxs seconded Mr. Aikin's amendment. Mr. TINNE said the amendment so completely embodied what the Water Committee desired, that he, for one, was quite willing to adopt it. Mr. Alderman COOPER, as chairman of the Water Com mittee, stated that he was quite willing to adopt the amendment. Some confusion here took place, in the midst of which Mr. Alderman Holme moved that the Council adjourn to next Wednes lay, at the Town Hall. The Council then broke up, without, so fez as we could understand, the amendment adopted by Mr. Cooper having been put from the chair. While the meeting was breaking up, Mr. Cooper was heard vehemently declaring that, whenever he saw that the Committee had lost the con fidence of the Council, he would not remain an hour longer at its head. THE NORTH IMPTON POST-OFFICE ROBBERY. On Thursday the ult., we published an account of the arrest of Mr. Charles Butcher, the chief clerk in the Northartinten Pest-office, where he had been a servant nearly thirty years, on the charge of abstrac'ing money from letters pasting through the Northampton Post-office. The ease was then remanded, in order to allow time for Mr. Haute, the presecuter on behalf of the Postmaster General, to produce witnesses. On Tuesday the case was again brought before the magistrates, when the Town Hall was crowded with r:ersoris eager to get a view of the prisencr. His appearance was calm and collec'ed, and he listened with evident composure to the serious charge brought against him. The first witness examined was Miss Davis, an assistant at the Oundle Post.office, who stated that she received a letter addressed to c M i r a s p . p L e i a v r e e r d oc t k o , at Mac&esfield, on Monday, the 24th, w have some coin in it. She tied it up with the Northamp ton letters, and placed it in the bag for Northampton. The bag was sealed and forwarded to Northampton at the proper time. The next witness was Mr. Anthony B j gate, a travelling clerk in connection with the General Post office, who stated that he received the bag from Northamp ton, containing letters for the north, and when he arrived at Blisworth station he cut open the bag, in the presence of Mr. Slade, an inspector of mails, to whom he handed the letters. Mr. Slade, inspector of mails, deposed that he examined the letters from Northampton, to see if the one addressed to Mrs. Liveroek, of Macclesfield, was in, but it was not. Mr. Gorge N. Viretton, the Northampton postmaster, stated that it was the prisoner's duty to sort the letters on the night of the 24th ult., and that there had been numerous complaints during the past year of letters missing containing money. Mr. Motile, the inspector connected with the General Pest-office, stated that hs posted a letter at Oundle, containing a marked half sovereign, in a marked enve l ope, rddressed to Mrs. Liveroc, of Macclesfield, which half sovereign was found on Butcher when lie was arrested. The magistrates then asked the prisoner if he had an thing to say. and he answered -‘ No." He was then committed for trial at the Mulch assizes, Mr. Hughes, the solicitor acing on the prisonts'e behalf, then made application for bail, urging that, although the prisoner had been committed on a serious charge, yet he had not been provei guilty, and it was desirable to temper justice with mercy. The magic tratee reserved the question for consideration. PAW, Tuesday.—The Prince Napoleon was present yesterday, at Modena, at the explosion of the first mine of the Sardinian railway tunnel through Mount Cenis. To day he will lay the first stone of the new bridge, by which the railway will pass over the Rhone and unite the frontier of Savoy to that of France. THE TtLIGRAPII TO lI , DIA.—The Times eats—between the conflicting schemes there seems a probability that the Indian telegraph ought to be completed in s i x mont h s , will it either fail altogether or be delayed until the greatest need for it is passed, and that if the business is to resolve itself into a contest of routes the battle may be inter minable. SIX THOUSAND MORE TROOPS FOR INDIA.—The Times says that the East India Company have made a requisition for about 6,000 additional troops, which it is calculated, after allowing for contingencies, will raise the European (one. in India to 80,000 men. The number sent out will have exceeded by a few thousand men the aid specified by the Governor-general to bo in hii opinion requisite, wei sA3 4 , t Fah t