The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-10-21 00:00:00

IiACIAL-MtETING T}lt TOWN COUNCIL, A special meeting of the Town Council was held of i Weds nesday, for the purpose of levying the fire police rate for the ensuing year, the consideration of the report of the finance committee on the erection of a new borough gaol, and the consideration of the first report of the special committee ap pointed in May last, to enquire into the duties and 'salaries, of the paid officers of the corporation. The M &YOB. presided:. There was a very full attendance of members. • ' FIRE POLICE RATE. - - - Mr. PROCTOR moved that a rate be levied of a halfpenny in the pound, fur the service of the fire police. This amount would produce £1,275 from the parish of Liverpool, and £325 from the out-townships. There was a balance in hand of £842 13s. ld., which would be absorbed by the expenses attendant upon the late fire, and the purchase of new engines. NEW BOROUGH GAOL. The next subject on the paper was the report of the finance committee on the gaol. This report embodied the resolution 1 of the committee passed on the 14th instant, of which the following is a copy :—" The committee having resumed the consideration of their report on the want of accommodation in the present borough gaol, standing for con s id era ti on of the council, at a special meeting on Wednesday last, it was resolved—' That the committee feel that the council are placed between two difficulties, being compelled to elect between great additions to the present prison, and the erection of an entirely new gaol. That the committ ee su b m it their opinion, that the latter course is the most eligible and economical ; that the committee are anxiou s th a t th e counc il s hould carry out the object with the funds of the corporation, though the committee cannot bold out any clear prospect of the council being able to do so ; nevertheless, the committee entertain the hope that a strict and constant system of economy may • enable the council to save the public from the course provided by law of raising money by a gaol rate upon the inhabitants."' Mr. G. H. LAWRENC E , i n m oving that the resolution of the Finance Committee be confirmed, commenced by re ferring to the inadequacy of the present gaol for the accom modation of th e p r i soners f urn i s hed by the borough. It was built in 1785, when the town contained only 70,000 to 80,000 souls, but which population, by the accession of the out townships, and other causes, had swelled to 300,000. The committee had long been aware that the system under which the gaol had been constructed was not approved in the pre sent day, and that it did not meet the requirements of the recent act of parliament ; and notwithstanding they had an excellent and able governor it was difficult to keep up the proper degree of discipline. The number of prisoners in August last was 859, whilst in 1838 it was only 438. so that it bad nearly doubled in three years. They ought to have Accommodation for 1000. The council had been in the habit of contracting with the county magistrates for the reception of their prisoners in Kirkdale, but that was now denied to then, and Sir James Graham had prevented them making the alterations which they had contemplated. The question now was, should they enlarge the existing gaol or build a new one. There was land on each side of it that might be ap propriated to the erection of new wings, the expense of which was estimated at £70,000 ; but it was hazardous to lay out so much money on that project under present circum stances. Some persons objected to the locality of the gaol so near to a large number of warehouses, where there had recently been a calamitous fire. The question had also been asked, could nothing be devised to lessen the number and the expense of juvenile offenders? Mr. Birkett had recommended a hulk, and others a re formatory ; but it should be remembered that the coun cil had not to legislate, nor must they speculate, on any future changes of the law ; they must obey the law as they found it. They were told that there was a great expense attendant upon hulks, and strong objections to them, and that they could not have them without a gaol establishment — such as keeper, chaplain, &c. &c. With regard to a reforma tory, there were very few juvenile offenders, compared with the great bulk of the criminals ; and, looking at the state of the surplus funds of the corporation, the committee would not be justified in entering upon such an expenditure, though they were much indebted to Mr. Rushton for bringing the matter forward, and his having done so might be productive of much good elsewhere, though it could not be received there. By the erection of a new gaol, it was expected that an improved discipline might be adopted, which would lead to greater morality, and not, as Major Jebb observed, leave Liverpool to incur the imputation of keeping a school for crime. There might be differences of opinion as to the in troduction of the silent or separate system, but the construc tion of such a gaol as he recommended would enable the council to adopt either the one or the other. The new gaol, he calculated, might be built for £150,000, including the cost of the land. The council, in aid of this, would give not only the present gaol, but the vacant land belonging to them on both sides of it. This, he believed, was somewhere about forty thousand square yards. It was difficult to give an exact estimate of its value, but Mr. Okill was of opinion that it was worth, with the materials of the old gaol, about £BO,OOO. This would leave £70,000, which, he calculated, would be much about the cost of the proposed additions to the old gaol. It would be some time before the £BO,OOO would be available, as the materials could not be sold until the new gaol should have been built. From the interest of the £70,000 to be provided he would be entitled to deduct the extra expense of maintaining prisoners in the county gaol ; and he thought he should also be entitled to take into calcu lation—though he would not lay much stress on this—the salaries of the superintendents of the enlarged portions of the gaol. Mr. Lawrence then entered into a calculation to show that all that would have to be provided annually would be from £2,100 to £2,800. There were two modes of raising this sum—one by a gaol rate, and the other by a grant from the surplus fund of the corporation. He was disinclined to lay a rate in the present position of the poor people of the town. On the other hand, if the money were to be paid by the corporation, the strictest economy in the council would be required,( as without this, it would be impossible to im prove the streets and public buildings, or to assist the charities with further benefactions. He called on the council to (acquiesce in the resolution of the Finance Committee, which he had proposed, though he had no doubt they would rather spend their money in the establishment of the town, or in the promotion of religious education. Sir THOMAS BRANCKER seconded the motion. Mr. EVANS would not oppose the building of the gaol, but thought, after the exposition they had had of their finances, they ought not to resort to the corporate funds, but the money should be raised by this great and opulent town. This was one of the opportunities on which that might be legitimately done. Were they to run the corporate ship aground and get into a state of bankruptcy, or ought the gaol to be built by the owners of cottages and others who had a Axed property in the town ? Were they to hamper the corporation, so that, however urgent the case may be, they should be prevented laying out one or two thousand pounds when it might be wanted. The town could bear the tax very well, and it should be remembered that the whole sum would not have to be laid in one year. Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—No ; twenty-eight years. The MAYOR.—Thirty years. Mr. EVANS.—Why not then levy the principal at once over a considerable portion of the time. In every other re spect he approved of the resolution. Mr. BtaxeTT was not surprised at Mr. Evans's remarks relative to the owners of cottage property, but he was with regard to those about opulent men, who were the very peo ple that would pay nothing under such a rate. What would Mr. Evans pay ? He was an opulent man, but he would ab solutely pay nothing. The merchants and other opulent men, for the most part, lived out of the town and would es cape the rate altogether. Let him contrast the liberality of this Council with that of the old unreformed Council. The latter erected the gaol in 1785 at its own expense. Did Mr. Evans oppose the payment of £150,000 for the Assize Courts, the costs of which ought more properly to have been defrayed by the county ; or was anything said the other day against the grant of £lO,OOO for more beautiful stone? It was not fair to levy a rate on, the tradespeople and poorer inhabitants merely because they bad an opportunity of doing it legally. They should, on the contrary, take money from the corpora tion only for purposes which they had a legitimate right to apply it to. The MAYOR.—It's too late to go back. Mr. Braurr.—No ; for so long as I have a seat here I shall advocate the one and oppose the other. The opulent were the very parties who would escape. Had he had no tice he would have taken out the whole assessment of mer chants and tradesmen, and compared them. Sir James Graham, he contended, was wrong in forcing the erection of a new gaol upon the town. It had not vet been decided that the separate system of confinement was a good one. The King of Prussia had lately sent to America for evidence on that subject, and the report made to him was against it. He (Mr. Birkett) was against the system being forced upon them, but as it was - so, he was for a new gaol in preference to the enlargement of the old oue, but he would pay for it by the corporation. Mr. BOLTON said the cost of each separate cell would be £125, or £7 per head per annum. There could be no doubt that the separate system would effect an improvement in the morals of the criminals. The erection of a new gaol was indispensable, but there were no surplus funds at the com mand of the corporation--(hear, hear)—and nothing was left them but to levy a gaol-rate. It might be said they should do as they did in 1785, but that was a time when all was prosperous and land cheap. Mr. AIKIN, after stating that there were more re-commit tals from Liverpool than from any other place, in proportion to its size and population, complained that the juvenile pri soners in the borough gaol, instead of being kept on bread and water, were daintily fed on excellent lobscouse, with onions and pepper in it to create an appetite. The smell alone had that effect with the Gaol Committee. He tasted it once with the Mayor — The MAYOR.—And very good it was. Mr. AIKIN went there also once with his children, and his little boy, having tasted it, said, " Papa, this is much better than anything we get at home." These were induce ments to crime, and they should seek power to adopt a dif ferent treatment, and to make the gaol really a place of pu nishment. With regard to a hulk, he observed that masters of vessels might not like to take gaol-birds on board their ships, but y oung vagran t s m ight be e ducated there, whi c h would prevent their falling into crime; criminals of tender age might be taught a trade at a land establishment at Hoy_ lake, and then they would be gladly received in the colonies. Some few a wing tors in the present gaol, he remarked, occu piedcriminals. thatßy would accommodate an immense number of classify the relieving the prison of these, they might for the Home felonse in the manner required by the Secretary build so large P r etment, and it would not be requisite to dated by addi:g9 art saa. The boys, too, might be accommo meother story to the plan of the proposed new bridewell. auenoansidered that the parish, town, and corporation. were th s ey had a common interest—and what came from he on e— they other. He recommended that a of the one came also from the eausid ta e _ the subject should be sub mitted to the further 01? of the Finance Commit and credit of the town , e a plan for the economy Mr. BUSHELL a g reed wit h souse of Mr Aiki n ' s ti on s, and would lik e to see them carr ied sugges - into effect, butif they had been likely to be advantageous they would, before gavermasent They were this, have been adopted by the with all compelled by the increase of crime and Population to build, ut the law. ' but t° carry 0 the improvements and were not there to think k sl t a h te at Major G. Ebb did not they could make, the present gaol would be sufficient, and recommended the buildi n g of a new one. Ther e W. , a g ood deal of the ad captandurn in the report. The statement that the additional cost would be only £14,000 looked well o n paper, but Le doubted whether it would be so in effect. Mr. Bolton had told them that there was not one oneshilling sur plus revenue in the corporate estate. fa lln the inhabitants Mr.B ir kett wa g nop posed to the rate because it would - having property, but that was perfectly absurd, because they must have been aware when they acquired that property of its liabilities— Mr. BIRKETT.—Ships are not touched. Mr. BUSHELL observed that they should imitate Sir Robt. Peel with his Income Tax. Mr. BIRKETT.—Sir Robert exempted the poor, and treated all others alike. Mr. BUSHELL concluded by stating his agreement with the view of Mr. Alderman Evans. In reply to a question from Mr. Alderman Nicol, Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE observed that Mersrs. Alderman Evans and Bushell meant that the rate should form an accumulative fund. Mr. IloposoN supported the view that the gaols of the country ought to he made more uncomfortable in regard to food and discipline, and said that there existed much false spmpathy abro a d on the subject. He suggested that the counci l should pay a part of the expense and the town the other. Mr. BpsnELL and Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE remarked that this was intended, if the council did not pay the whole. Mr. Hoo.osoN supposed th ere was no p owe r to l ev y ex cept upon fixed property, or he should recommend it on im portations. The TowN.Clzax stated that the rate would be levied in the SAM manner 41 tha poor -rate. Mr. PAtuott approved of the report of the Finance Com mittee. They had acted as if they were unwilling to harden the poor, on whom the rate would unquestionably fall if it were to be levied on the town. It would not be very popu lar to be brought forward by the conservatives just on the eve of the let of November. See how it would fall in 11r. Bushell's ward. Mr. BUSHELL.—That is rather hard just before the elec ion. Mr. PARKE/L.-Mr. Bushell had represented, on the faith of Mr. Bolton's assertion, that there was no surplus fund. He differed with that statement. The Birkenhead commis sioners could get money only at five per cent. whilst the cor poration could get it at four per cent., showing clearly that they were far from a state of hankrupicy. Mr. BUSH ELL would boldly stake his knowledge against Mr. Parker's modesty for the truth of his statement. With out being on the Finance Committee he had chosen to make an assertion which was completely unsupported and opposed to that given on the authority of an old and one of the most useful members of that committee. _ _ Mr. EARLE said that as Mr. Parker had introduced the bnsiness transacted on the other side of the water, he would mention that there the worthy councillor had tried tet stop the steam-boats running on Sundays, whilst here he advo cated the keeping open the public-houses on Sundays. (Confusion.) It was enough to make a dog sick. Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE agreed in the propriety of taking the wing at present occupied by the debtors if it could be done, and recom men d e d that time should be taken for con sideration. Liverpool had the unenviable notoriety of being higher than any other town as regarded the proportion of juvenile criminals to the number of inhabitants. In Liver pool they were 66 per cent., whilst in Manchester they were only 43. It was easy for Major Jebb to say the pr;son ought to be built whatever might be the inconvenience, but it was not so easy for th e C ounc il to find the means. This was their first consid era ti ons ; the next sho u ld be as to the pre vention and increase of crime. With good food and good treatment, were they to build a gaol ten times as large as the present one it would soo n be filled. One cause of the pri son being required was, the mistaken leniency exercised to wards juvenile criminals. He questioned whether the phi lanthropists, who were in the habit of going through the country visiting gaols, had not done more harm than good. A London magistrate had expressed a wish that the legisla ture would empower the magistrates to order juvenile felons a sound flogging. Were that done we should not have boys committed here seven, eight, nine, and even twenty times, which had been the case. Supposing we could start fair with the new gaol, the best plan he could devise would be to give them a sound religious education, but if they went there he was for the severe method. 'Why was crime less in Scotland than in England? Because education was different. If he had his will he would get our clergy to take up this question. Let them spend the thousands of pounds, which they now squandered upon foreign missionaries , in filling the bellies of the poor and then giving them instruction. He would not subscribe one shilling to a missionary society whilst there was a poor and ignorant man in his own country. He pro posed an amendment to the effect, that a special committee should be appointed to consider the propriety of establishing a reformatory, and calling upon the legislature to empower magistrates to order whipping for juvenile criminals. Mr. JORDAN seconded the motion. Mr. ASPINALL, as a member of the Finance Committee, should give his hearty support to the motion made by the chairman. He was decidedly of opinion that a borough rate ought not to be thought of so long as there was so much available property in the hands of the corporation. From what they had received from the (lock estate the government compelled them to pay off .£146,000 of the bonded debt; but there was £73,000 yet to be received, which might, by permission of the government, be applied to the building of a new gaol. (Hear.) So long as that money was available he did not see any reasonable ground for taxing the poor inhabitants of the town ; and, indeed, he should always set his face against a borough rate, whilst the corporation might make so much of their pro perty available for the purpose. Besides this, the corporation had property, the leases of which had lapsed and were kept for improvement, the rental of which was £5986 per annum ; and, independently of that, the dockyards and the Cheshire estate, they had land worth upwards of £150,000, which paid a rental of only £2BOO, or not 2 per cent. Whilst the times were so hard people could not afford to pay a rate. (Hear.) If they were to have a new gaol, let there be better times, when all this property might come into the market. It was not fair, under these circumstances, to im pose a borough rate; and he should most strenuously lift his voice against it. (Hear.) Mr. BOLTON said that the money to be paid from the dock estate had brought an interest of £5OOO a-year, which had ceased, and must be replaced. Mr. SHAND, Mr. HARBORD, and Mr. PLATT were for further consideration. Mr. ISAAC HOLMES was glad to find that Mr. Bolton, just as he was going out of the council, was of his opinion, that the corporation had no surplus fund. He had contended that for three or four years. A gaol-rate would be unjust and unequal, and would be paid by only about one-third of the inhabitants—chiefly shopkeepers and cottage owners. The cost of maintaining prisoners in the gaol was about one-sixth per cent. more than in the workhouse, which ought not to be the case. As to the statement that in Liverpool the pro portion of juvenile oflenders was 60 per cent., and in Man chester 48, it should be remembered that in Manchester, when they came out of gaol, there was work for them, which was not the case here. In some governments juvenile regi ments were formed, into which boys of 15 years old were en listed. It was to be regretted there was not something of the kind in England. Mr. AIKIN, after some more observations, proposed that the consideration of the subject should be again referred to the committee, in order to ascertain if they could not adopt measures to render a gaol unnecessary. Mr. PLATT seconded the resolution. Mr. FREME said all the suggestions made during that dis cussion had been already submitted to Major Jebb, and de bated. The building of the new gaol had been forced upon the council. Mr. LLOYD.—What is the penalty for non-compliance? Mr. FREME.—They may take our quarter sessions from us. Mr. LLOYD said that was the best thing that could be done ; for during the last five years the prosecutions had cost the town £20,000. It was the strangers who came into the town that added to the crime. The MAYOR.—WOUICI not the expense be greater if the prisoners were tried by the county ? Mr. LLOYD.—Yes • but we should be the better abl e to pay. Mr. COOPF.R said the surplus fund of the corporation would be quite sufficient to enable them to build the gaol, it rigid economy were practised. The whole town, after the re cent increase of the pours-rates, would rise against a borough rate. If they got rid of their quarter sessions, they would have to pay for the trial of their prisoners by a county rate. Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE briefly replied, and the votes were taken on Mr. Aikin's amendment. There were 10 for and 42 against it, as follows : For the amendment—Messrs. Hodgson, Preston, H. Holmes, Bright, Toulmin, Gladstone, Jordan, Platt, Har board, and Bramley Moore. Aga:nst it—Messrs. Shand, I. Holmes, Thornhill, Sand bach, Copeland, Edwards, Mellor, Sands, Bolton, Aikin, Priestley, Aspinall, Yates, J. Lawrence, Robinson, Cooper, Wood, Bi,kett, Bushell, Lloyd, Kilshaw, Parker, Jones, jun., Brassey, J. Smith, G. H. Lawrence, Trotman, A. Smith, jun., Holt, Bully, Freme, Evans, Barclay, Earle, Moon, R. Houghton, Nicol, Turner, Molyneux, Crook, Sir T. Brancker, and the Mayor. Mr. HODGSON, Mr. BRIGHT, and Mr. SANDS recom mended a postponement, on the ground that much new matter had been brought forward, and that new members would shortly be coming into the council, who might wish to have something to say on the matter. Mr. YATES and Mr. PARKER deprecated delay. . . . Mr. BOLTON said the government had made up their minds to have a new gaol, and all the plans spoken of that day were useless. Mr. EARLE observed that something had arisen about en larging the bridewell. Mr. THORNHILL—That is not decided upon yet. Mr. EARLE.—I know that as well as you ; and I know that you would prevent it if you could. Mr. THORNHILL. 7 -YOU are arguing as if it were. Mr. EARLE.—lndeed, I don't argue at all. I don't know if they will put the Watch Committee in it. It is rumoured that some of them have been there before now. . Mr. FREME observed that all that Mr. Aikin contemplated would be effected in the new gaol. Mr. Ntcot. said the postponement was useless. As to the suggestion about a reformatory, it had been tried in England and in Scotland. He had seen one in Glasgow, and it might be done by private and charitable subscription, but the legislature would never grant an act for the purpose. With regard to the proposed application of the bridewell to the reception of juvenile delinquents, the Town-clerk would bear him out in the assertion that that could only be done by having a gaol establishment there. Whipping had so re cently been abolished by the government, that he thought it was not likely it would be introduced. At the suggestion of Mr. JORDAN, Mr. Aikin withdrew that part of his amendment referring to whipping, and it stood merely as fur postponement. Thelrotes were then taken as follow: For the amendment—Messrs. D. Hodgson, W. Preston, Henry Holmes, T. Sands, J. Aikin, R. Bright, T. Touhnin, R. Gladstone, F. Jordan, J. Platt, E. Evans, T. B. Barclay, W. Earle, J. H. Turner, and J. Bromley-Moore. Against it—F. Shand, Isaac Holmes, W. Thornhill H. R. Sandbach, H. Copeland, J. Edwards, T. Bolton, J. Priestley, J. Aspinall, R. V. Yates, J. Lawrence, T. Robinson, J. Cooper, J. N. Wood, W. Birkett, J. Proctor, J. B. Lloyd, J. Kilshaw, J. Parker, R. Jones, jun., T. Brassey, J. Smith, G. H. Lawrence, S. L. Trotman; A. Smith, jun., T. Holt, T. Bulley, W. P. Freme, Sir T. Brancker, J. Moon, W. Nicol, E. :Molyneux, R. S. Crook, and the Mayor. The original motion was then put and carried. REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON TILE PAID OFFICERS OF THE CORPORATION. The next subject on the paper was the consideration of the first report of the Special Committee on the Paid Officers of the Corporation. Mr. LLOYD, chairman of the special committee, said it would be more convenient if the council proceeded in the first instance to the fourth subject on the summons, which was the reading of the report on the department of the treasurer. The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK then read the report, which commenced with a statement of the duties of the treasurer, and his assistants, Mr. Neilson and Mr. Smith. It appeared that the present treasurer was appointed on the removal of Mr. John Deane Case, in 1836, (to whom an annuity of £5OO was secured for life,) at a salary of £5OO per annum, he giv ing security in the sum of £BOOO. Mr. Neilson, as book keeper, has a salary of £2OO, besides £5O a year as keeper of the wine cellar, and £lO as secretary and assistant. treasurer to the Wallasev Commissioners; and in addition to this, he has, for the I.tst t elve months, in conjunction with Mr Smith, been engaged in auditing the accounts of the Court of Requests, which extend over a period of five years. Mr. Smith is the assistant -book-keeper and collector; he has a salary of £l5O, and gives security in £3OO. The report stated that no check had been kept by the treasurer on the fees received in the town-clerk's office, and that accounts were examined merely as to the correctness of the additions, without its being ascertained whether the goods supplied had been furnished at the lowest cash price, or discount allowed. Several recommendations were then made, the most important of which were, that the treasurer should check all fees re ceived, that he should make the calculations of fines upon the renewal of leases ; that all orders should pass from his office ; and that his published accounts should be arranged in a more perfect form. Mr. LLOYD said that the council having heard the report o ( n tim t e h ar e r: t i cheilsll reas r u .) rer's department, he should move that it be re ferred ba c k t o t h e comm i t t ee , and brought up a g ain for con sideration w h en t h e committee made their second report. NW seconded the motion. Mr. EARLE said he would suggest the alteration of one word in the report, to which the committee would perhaps assent. The report stated that the present treasurer was appointed upon the " removal"a of Mr..r ase, which would he i h r. he C h as el e d. im n w l i had actually been removed from the san p a ly tio that The fae and, t,h therefore, he h h e e accepted not pted £5OO a-year as a compromise, thrown out. The present number not of clerks w ere p ro p os ed t o him, and he said he could conduct tha t t h a e nbusines arrangements with was made whereby he retired. li e them ; the consequence of which was, mentionedwotn thiswould have justice hee n, to Mr. Case. The proper expressio n " Mr. LLOYD theresignation a o s f k M i‘ r i . r . C a s e.' Earle, in th e first instance, whether whether there h ad been an y ded uction in the ex office? There had been a chan g e, h e admitter, n bcuet the not think it had been attended with any diminution of ex. pence. There was then Mr. Case, Mr. John Sudlow, Mr. William Sudlow, and Mr. Pearson; there was now Mr. Wyberg, Mr. Neilson, Mr. Smith, and Mr. Pear son . N ow where one gentleman had been in the receipt of £l,OOO a-year for his services, and Something; considerably less was offered to him, which he did not choose to accept, for tha same services, call it what they might, he (Mr. Lloyd) con sidered it a removal ; but if the word " removal" was not approved of, he would willingly say, " upon the retirement of Mr. Case." Mr. EARLE said there was one person less under the pre sent treasurer, because Mr. Pearson was superannuated. Mr. BOLTON said the present was not the proper time, otherwise he could readily explain the apportionment of the office. Mr. LLOYD said, if the word had been dismissed, there might have been some ground for cavil, but as it was there wi.s none. • Mr. BOLTON suggested that " retirement" would be the better word to adopt. Mr. BIRKETT observed, that if there were the same num ber of clerks now as there were then, it was a removal. Mr. EARLE.—But you have not the same number. Mr. BIRKETT.—Then we ought to have it explained. The MAYOR explained that it was a voluntary thing upon the part of Mr. Case. Mr. LLOYD considered the subject in discussion perfectly trivial, and noc worth the words spent upon it. The TOWN-CLERK suggested that the proper course would be to refer to the resolution of the Council. which would de termine whether it was a removal. According to his recol lection it was, in point of form, a removal under the Munici pal Corporations' Act, without which the bond to Mr. Case could not have been granted. The books, however, would speak for themselves. Mr. SANDS remarked that there must have been a virtual removal. Mr. AIKIN said, that the chairman having proposed to re fer the report hack to the committee, it was not before the Council ; otherwise he (Mr. Aikin) should take objections to many parts of it. • The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK read from the council pro ceedings a report from the Paid Officers' Committee, dated the 4th of May, 1836, which recommended (and it was agreed to) that from and after the 7th of May, 1836, the services of Mr. John Deane Case, as treasurer of the borough, be dis continued. (Hear, hear.) Mr. COOPER said if that was not a removal, he did not know what was. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BRAMLEY-MOOP.E.—It is something very like a dis missal. (Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. LLOYD moved that the word "dismissal" be substi tuted for " removal." Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE seconded the motion. Mr. Earle would, perhaps, now receive the expression much better than he did before. Mr. LLOYD observed that the act of parliament said the council of every borough should have the power of removal. Removal, therefore. was the nroper word to use. Mr. AIKIN said he should like to know, from the recol lection of the town-clerk, whether a compromise was not made? He (Mr. Aikin) bad a clear recollection that it never was intended to remove Mr. Case, but instead of con tinuing to him £lOOO, they had presented to him only £5OO. He knew there was an arrangement made to enable the party retiring, and the other party who came in, to receive £5OO. If Mr. Case had continued to act, his original salary of £lOOO would have been continued ; but to enable the coun cil to accomplish the grant of £5OO within the meaning of the act, he would ask the town-clerk whether some arrange ment was not made? The TOWN-CLERK said the answer he should give to that question, with all deference, would be this. His understand ing was that there was a compromise between the Paid Officers' Committee and Mr. Case. It being understood that Mr. Case would be content with £5500 a-year secured to him, an arrangement was made to carry into effect what was legal under the municipal act—namely, his removal, Mr. Case claiming compensation, and having that compensation al lowed to him. Mr. LLOYD asked how it could be expected that he, who had not been in the council twelve months, should know of the existence o f any p r i va t e arrang e m ent? He thought, however, enough had been said upon the subject. Mr. EARLE said that Mr. Case would confirm what the town-clerk had stated. The MAYOR observed that the word in the act of parlia ment was " removed." The report on the treasurer's department was then re ferred beck to the Paid Officers' Committee. Mr. LLOYD would now proceed to the third subject upon the summons, which was for the council to take into consi deration the first report of the Paid Officers' Committee, laid before them at their last meeting. He then promised that at the present meeting there should be laid upon the table the evidence upon which the committee had grounded their re port. The evidence was now upon the table ; it was now be fore the council. (Hear.) He would suggest to the council that they should take the whole subject into their most serious consideration, inasmuch as it was most important for the good government and direction of this large estate. In the dismission on the gaol question, a great deal had been said on the advantage of system and discipline ; and he must apply the same remark to the departments referred to in the re port, for in them there was a want of that system, direction, and discipline, which were most essential for the welfare of the establishment. Two modes had suggested themselves to his mind for the council to deal with this report. The first wes this—that he, as Chairman of the Paid Officers' Com mittee, should move " that the report be taken in considera tion at a future• day, and that in the mean time the Town. clerk, the Deputy Town-clerk, the Clerk of Committees, and the Sergeant-at-Mace, state their views in writing to the council, through the committee, upon such parts of the re port as may be considered to refer to themselves ; and that the committee be instructed to procure, through the town clerk, counsels' opinion upon the legal questions which arise upon the report." The other mode was, to move " that every department be now considered seriatim, and such parts of the evidence read, and documents referred to, as may be considered necessary, in order to show the grounds upon which the committee have made their report; and subse quently come to a decision upon the whole, or any part, of the committee's recommendations." If any point should arise on which there might be discussion, or anything read from the evidence which was now found incorrect, he would suggest, in the first instance, that that particular subject should be referred back to the committee for their further report thereon, and that the officer whose duty might be made the subject of the question should report to the council, through the committee, upon that particular question. Perhaps there might be a third course that the council might take with advantage—it was, to throw both the report and the evidence aside, and take the case as it stood for themselves. [Mr. EARLE—Oh Lord; no, no!] Why one heard every day almost of the House of Com mons resolving itself into committee in order to enter upon details where the strict rules of discussion could t :tfevsheteh, they abuse—and dm, who were ndsuwc. see t ote l iruh r —eat ofir tdotatoutnhnr through oh e ohetaeunvli c gteoev o hhaii u e: ngi n t wohc allt whole onlyoot course wa m eol fbiyur i u g oiraessm h resolve themselves into committee, and tak e a ll t h e evidence not be observed. This was just one of those cases, an d therefore it had occurred to t,olditil ll fi h tbthhvu they which y, t t shoi labourru x t egi , threats. ts for r tbsoeu The k e t hn h a n eoe committee individuals, w m c , s o e greatuuh l n v an ecdl deal esis had—that evi dence. The second resolution, of those he proposed, would impose a great deal of labour upon him, but he did not shrink from that, however formidable it might be; because he was determined to do what he conceived to be his duty. (Hear, hear.) He was, at the same time, prepared to go through the report, sentence by sentence, and to prove every passage in it by the evidence given by the officers and servants of the corporation themselves. And he was bound to state that personally he had received the greatest courtesy from every officer connected with the corporation ; but there was a circumstance relative to Mr. Okill, the Clerk of Committees, which he regretted to be obliged to state. He did so because there was a ;resolution upon the proceed ings of the committee, which if read without any explana tion, might seem to have been incorrectly placed there. As chairman, the course he had adopted was to request the head of every department to furnish the committee with a statement of his duties in writing ; and along with the rest Mr. Okill was requested to do the same. Mr. Okill laid be fore the committee a report presented to the council in 1839, stating that his duties were described there ; but upon read ing it the committee found that it related to his past not to his present services. On calling for Mr. Okill they were in formed that he had left the building. The committee thought nothing of that at the time, and they proceeded to take the examination of his clerk, Mr. Abbott. They then fixed another day, on which to take Mr. Okill's examination ; the committee met on that day, but, he regretted to say Mr. Okill did not make his appearance, although he (Mr. Lloyd) had written to him to inform him of the meeting, and al though he had seen the resolution of the committee that they would proceed with his examination, some days before. Another meeting was then appointed ; but at that meeting Mr. ()kill did not come to the committee with his duties in the shape the committee required, and consequently his examination was postponed till another meeting. The committee had the trouble of meeting no less than four times before they could get Mr. Okill's duties in writing. He made these observations, because, from the course the ex amination had taken, he thought the committee had lost most valuable information in not having had in the first in stance the same mode of dealing with Mr. Okill as they had with the Town-clerk. Mr. SANDS—Did he never appear? Mr. LLOYD replied:that he had. The Town-clerk, from first to last, had given the fullest information he possibly could ; and if the committee had met with the same straightforward conduct upon every side, it would have been of the greatest convenience to them ; and any inaccuracies which there might possibly he in the report might have been obviated. lie (Mr. Lloyd) would be the first to admit. and it must be admitted on all sides, that the services of Mr. Okill to the corporation had been very great. The old corporation, as well as the new, had admitted the value of those services by grants of money and by increase which from time to time they had made in his salary. Whether he had been sufficiently remunerated for his past services was not a question for the council to go into now ; but he (Mr. Lloyd) considered that Mr. Okill stood in a false position with regard to the council. For instance he had now the custody of that which the officer who was to conduct the ex ecution of the municipal corporations' act, with relation to this borough, might at any moment take from him. Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE—He is bound to do it. Mr. LLOYD, in continuation, said that if the council kept Mr. Okill in his present position, they could not keep him there except as a clerk of the town-clerk. A MEereett—No doubt of it. Mr. LLOYD.—It was said " No doubt about it," but Mr. Okill did not consider himself as a clerk of the Town-Clerk, and it could not be expected that a person with his habits, and at his time of life, could ever be brought to consider himself so. It was absurd therefore to say that there was no doubt about it. The evidence would show that neither Mr. Okill himself, nor the Town-Clerk considered that to be his position, and, consequently, he (Mr. Lloyd) held that Mr. Okill stood in a wrong position. His view was that Mr. Okill might be placed in a more advantageous situation, and let the law take its course, Place him in such a position as an accountant or other person would be, when called in to examine into the correctness of a mass of accounts ; to ascertain that all indexes were kept up correctly ; that all the leases were sufficiently checked; and do not let the salary be any consideration if the Town-Clerk or the Deputy Town-Clerk wanted efficient assistance. The council would then have this advantage, that the Town- Clerk, and any other officer who required it, might go to him for information, and have it at any time ; for if anything should happen to Mr. Okill, what was now before the coun cil would have to be gone into, and how much better was it to have all the officers in their proper places when it could be done with advantage, and they could obtain from Mr. Okill the valuable information he possessed, which was ne cessary for those officers who were really proceeding according to the act of parliament. (Hear, hear.) The fact was, that if Mr. Okill were taken away from them this matter would have to be begun again, ae 210V0 ;—(hear)—and the evidence. in point of fact, showed that time had been lost by the act not being observed. There might be inaccuracies in the report, but those inaccuracies would be found trivial when compared with the importance and extent of the subject now before them. He would suggest that, if any discussion should arise, as had already arisen, about a word, that the council should deal first with the main question, and afterwards de bate whether a particular word should have been used—dis missed, removed, or retired. (Hear, hear.) There were two ways of telling a tale ; the committee had told theirs from the evidence. If any gentleman should not approve of the words used, he (Mr. Lloyd) would be the first to, bow to the decision of the council. Let them show that any parti cular portion of the report was wrong, and he would be the first to apologise for it, or for whatever might hurt the feelings of any one, or if the council said strong words had been used where mild ones should have been placed. He therefore begged to move the first of the resolutions which he had read. He had at present said nothing about printing the evidence; and why? Until they heard what the officers, who had to conduct the business part of the system to he laid down had to say, it would be wror;g td publish the evideneei There thlgiit be dates and other matters which the individuals who furnished them to the committee might, upon referring back, and taking the mass of council proceedings from 183 G to the present time, find inaccurate, or some resolutions which had never come before the committee, and of the existence of which they could have bad no knowledge. It would, therefore, be wrong to print the evidence, without taking more time for consideration. Mr. SANDS.—That refers to Abbott's case? Mr. LLOYD said there might be inaccuracies in the report, and that might be one ; but he could point out to the council, upon the evidence, that Cie committee could have come to no other conclusion than they had. In moving the resolu tion which he had read, he begged to say that he laid the report before the council in the full confidence that its sug gestions, if adopted, would put the affairs of the corporation in a much better business position than they were. Mr. KILSRAW seconded the motion. Mr. BOLTON said, he did not rise to oppose the mode of proceeding which Mr. Lloyd had suggested, because very likely it would be most convenient for the final settlement of the question. But he must say, that in the report now sub mitted there was much, both in the manner and in the matter, of which he disapproved. While it contained many sug gestions which,' if carried, would, he had no doubt, be beneficial to the corporate estate, the report being printed and known not only to the members of the council, but to the town, he felt himself called upon (particularly as he might not have the opportunity of doing so when it was con sidered again) to make a few observation upon the report itself. In the first place he objected to the expression in page 2, that throughout the entire of the Town-clerk's de partment there was a total want of system. That was a very sweeping assertion. He did not concur in the accuracy of it, although to a certain extent it might be as there laid down. The report just read he objected to, because it im plied a censure upon the Treasurer of the Borough Fund, not intended, he believed, but certainly the words used would seem to convey it. It was in fact the tone and tem per of the whole report that he objected to, because it con veyed censure upon officers who had not an opportunity of replying to its assertions. Now from having bad frequent occasion to be in the Treasurer's office, he could say that that office was conducted with as much regularity as any public office in the kingdom, be the other wherever it might. Mr. KILSTIAW called upon Mr. Bolton to confine himself to the Town-clerk's department. Mr. Nicol, said it was irregular and premature at present for Mr. Bolton to go into the discussion of the details. The report must at present be considered exports, as the officers affected by it had not vet had an opportunity of sending in their statements upon it. The discussion should take place when both sides were before the council, and not till then. Mr. EARLE professed his astonishment to hear Mr. Nicol say that the report was experts. Was it correct that Mr. Nicol had pronounced it an ex parte report ? Mr. NicoL—Yes, certainly. Mr. EARLE was really astonished. Why it was the report of a committee which had been appointed to report nothing but facts ; but here there was a fact stated which was not a , fact. Mr. NrcoL said it was founded upon the evidence, he had no doubt. Mr. BOLTON repeated that the report as now published conveyed a censure upon the Treasurer which was not de served. Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE said it conveyed no such censure upon the Treasurer. Mr. Bor.Toe; said he was prepared to go into considerable detail upon the report ; but he would throw up his memo randa, and speak from memory. iChere were two or three parts which ought no longer to be kept from the public. He would first refer to that part of the report which related to the appointment of Mr. Okill's clerk. Mr. B. then went on to speak of Mr. Abbott's printed explanation touching the allegations in the report. 'With respect to the custody of the muniments and leases, he said the law might have ope rated very well in other places, but with the great amount of labour which devolved on the Town-clerk of Liverpool, the law required too n4uch duty from him. Mr. Okill should be the custodian'of those documents, and he merely held them now as the confidential clerk of the Town-clerk. Mr. Bol ton proceeded to explain in what manner the appointment of Mr. Roscoe, as sergeant-at-mace, took place. Mr. Parkin son stated that he wits unable to find the security required from him, and prayed for compensation, which was granted to him. Mr. Bolton next entered into very lengthy explana tions of the reasons for the removal of Mr. Case, finding fault with the term " removal " used in the report. He said it was stated that officers had been dismissed. He was not aware of any officer who performed his duty efficiently having been dismissed. He challenged any one to name any officer who had performed his duty efficiently who lied been dismissed. Mr. HODGSON.—Mr. Case. Mr. BOLTON.--I have already explained that. Mr. J. LAWRENCE.—Yes, to your orvn satisfaction, but not to ours. Mr. EARLE.—Mr. Case would give precisely the same explanation himself. Mr. BOLTON proceeded to observe further on the tone and feeling of the report, which, he said, should have resembled the charge of a judge to a jury. In his view of the case, the Town Clerk had great reason to complain of the tone used as regarded his department. The onerous and laborious duties of the Town Clerk ought to have been taken into con sideration, and the incessant interruptions which he expe rienced from every member of the council who might happen to have a crotchet in his head. The Town Clerk ought to have an opportunity of repelling those charges, and he hoped it would be afforded to him. Another thing ; he never wished to deal with motives—only with facts. The council at which the report of the Paid Officers' Committee was read was held on the Wednesday. That report was published in the Standard of Friday, a copy of which he had before him ; and he now wished to know by whose authority that report was published, and for what object it had been published ? Mr. BUSHELL.—Reporters are here, Mr. Bolton. Mr. BOLTON asked whether any man would tell him that any reporter could take down an intricate document divided and subdivided into three or four heads ? No reporter could have taken even the figures down. Mr. BUSUELL.—If the report was not intended to be published, the reporters should have been ordered to retire. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BOLTON defied any reporter to have taken down such a document, when there was so much minute subdivision and arrangement, so accurately as it had been printed in the Standard. It was out of the power of human nature. He complained, therefore, that the report had been either stolen by some one who had no right to the possession of it. or that it had been furnished by some person to the Standard most improperly. (Much confusion.) That report, when placed in the hands of the council, became the property of the council; and no human being had any right to make use of it but those to whom it belonged. (Renewed confusion.) Mr. PROCTER, as a member of the Paid Officers' Com mittee, word ttee " stolen." Before ,hop esdtehatMr. Bolton he went onwould oneimme s d t i e a p tel f y or w t i be th r d , raw the he nust withdraw that word. It would not be the first time he had been compelled to withdraw his assertions. (Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. BOLTON said he put it in this way. He must either have stolen it or have had it given to him in some manner which he (Mr. Bolton) wanted to have explained. (Uproar, and cries of " Withdraw.") Mr. PROCTER put it to the council whether it was courte ous towards the members of the committee which had acted with Mr. Bolton, for him to use the word " stolen." He ought to be compelled to withdraw it. (Cheers.) Mr. BOLTON left the matter to the common sense of the council to pass their own judgment upon the way in which the report had been obtained by the Standard. It must have been either stolen or furnished, he did not say which. (Great confusion.) Mr. LLOYD said he would prevent all further trouble upon the subject by avowing that the reporters, beingte public adm ittedall into that room for the liber al purpose of telling the that transpired there, had applied for a copy of the report, and that he had furnished them with a draught of it, which was his own property. • (Loud cheers.) Mr. Bar:role withdrew the word " stolen," but wished to know what was the intention of publishing that report. There was a ward meeting on the night of the council, and he saw by the Standard that Mr. J. B. Lloyd " seconded the motion, and referred to the able report" which bad been read in the council. (A laugh.)—lt was immediately ex plained that the words quoted were those of the reporter and not of Mr. Lloyd. Sir Trios. BRANCKER said he thought the council ought to confine themselves to the terms of the motion, and not to enter upon details. Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE, with regard to the alleged seve rity of the report, begged that Mr. Bolton's questions to the Town-clerk might be read from the evidence, and it would soon be seen what his feelings were with respect to the Town-clerk. Mr. BOLTON protested against any single extract being read from the evidence, as the council could not judge of the animus therefrom. He had no objection to the whole being read. Mr. BIRKETT moved that the evidence be read, but was ultimately induced to withdraw his motion. Mr. BARCLAY stated his objections to the report, and contended that it was at variance with the resolution ap pointing the committee. Mr. BitaaiLEY-Mocutz did not wish to interfere in the present question between theSchairman of the Paid Officers' Committee and Mr. Bolton; but Mr. Bolton had asserted that the report displayed a bad feeling. That was the asser tion of Mr. Bolton. Now he, (Mr. Moore,) upon his part, would undertake to say that, so far from there being any asperity in the report, it was rather more than borne out by the evidence upon the table. (Hear.) There was, then, his assertion against Mr. Bolton. (Hear.) The evidence was there ; and, if ever it came to be printed, the council might judge for themselves. The MAYOR said the proper time to allude to the evidence was when it had been printed, and not till then. The ques tion now was, whether the council would go into the general subject or not. Mr. BRANILEY-MOORE. — Mr. Bolton has — The NlAroa.—Transgressed, 1 should say. - Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE said that Mr. Bolton, in his speech, had made observations about the letter of Mr. Ab bott. As that letter had had free circulation, he (Mr. Bram ley-Moore) thought it only right,in justification of the Com mittee, to claim the privilege of making a few observations upon it. It had been said that Mr. Abbott had triumph antly answered the only two charges contained in the report. Now Mr. Abbott, contrary to the course of all the paid officers, had been the first to take time by the forelock, and publish a re port of his own, justifying his conduct, and charging the report with making statements which were not borne out by the proceedings of the council, instead of waiting to communicate, as the other officers were to do, through the committee. This was the question which he (Mr. Moore) should more parti cularly deal with now. Mr. Bolton had made reference to certain proceedings of the council, with reference to Mr. Okill and his clerk, and he (Mr. Moore) would just recapi tulate what had taken place upon that business. By the re port of the Paid Officers' Committee, on the 2d March, 1836, they recommended Mr. Okill to have a clerk, and neither of them to do business privately on their own account. This report was ordered to be printed, and taken into considera tion on the Friday next. Let the council take notice of the dates. A special council was held on the 4th March, two days afterwards, when it was resolved that the report should be again considered on the 16th of March, and a special council called for that purpose. On that occasion the town clerk and the deputy town-clerk were appointed, and after the report of the Paid Officers' Committee had been con sidered, it was " resolved that the appointment of surveyor be approved ; that the report under the head of ' Clerk of Committees' he approved, but referred back to the com mittee gene ral accounts en corporationwh e t e r a s y e s a t o e mo not of bcehe effected,ck ooftfhetthiic3oeor which time services of Mr. Okill and his clerk can not be used with advantage." Now, in searching, the pre sent committee could not find that this report had ever been made : it was never reported upon. It might be that they were Financeil, the llable tocotimirmidittiete. brought Ten uopornepotirmet before22d uncil ; and they resolved, that the clerk of committees having recommended the appointment of James Abbott to be hi s clerk, at a salary of £l5O, the same be allowed, an d that he be allowed to carry on the business of a law -sta tioner, and so on. This was a resolution of the Fi nance Committee, which was brought before the council and con firmed by them; without any observation whatever, upon the 4th of May • thus stultifying the proceedings of the 2d, 4th, and 16th of ' March. (Hear.) Now, it could excite no won der that this resolution of the Finance Committee should have been overlooked by the Paid Officers Committee, see. ing, too, that Mr. Bolton himself halydnxbeeeyne ; a mtheemrebfoerreofhtohwe committee of 1836. It h a d escaped even his observati on t along f with lB 36 : the and rest it b of a thed escapedo ther hs m embers of the present com mittee. Mr. B o l ton actua ll y was a member of the commit. Cald it bd eiOcted that the present committee, new hands as they were, should find out such a resolution? But it was necessary here to show that when the council passed the re solution saying that Mr. Abbott should have £l5O a-year and not transact business, the Finance Committee not only per tnittted him to have private business, but increased his salary to £2so,—still allowed him to transact private business. Now. it would not excite any surprise that the committee should not have found the resolution of the Finance Com mittee. Therefore, giving Mr. Abbott all the advantage of that, what did it amount to? All she resolutions of the council on the 2d, 14th, and 16th of March had been burled. —smothered,--the whole of them. (Hear, hear.) To show how difficult it was to arrive at real information when it was required, and to show the manner in which the corporation business had been conducted, he would mention a curious circumstance. Ile had wanted to refer to certain proceedings at the period when the municipal act came into operation, in January, 1836. lie found the Borough Court and Court of Requests Committee book, and when he opened it to read the proceedings, lie found that there had been nothing done until the 17th of November, 1836! (Hear, hear.) Were the com mittee ashamed to record their proceedings from January to November. (Cheers.) They must have been so, because there were forty-eight blank pages left to enter the proceed ° ines to this very day. Ther e was th e h oo k! ( pro d uc i ng it) Mr. HODGSON—What never entered ? Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE—No, never entered, sir ! And this was a matter which came before him casually ; and, for anything that he knew, there might he fifty more in the same way. Now, with such a state of things, how was it possible to arrive at anything like correct information ? Forty-eight pages left blank to this very day ; and to take a leaf out of Mr. Earle's book, he would say to_ the gentlemen of the press, " Take care to make that known to the public !" (Hear.) The proceedings of this committee were not regis tered from January to November—not one word of them ! Mr. EARLE—I am sorry I cannot pay you the compliment of taking . . a leaf out of your hook. Charity thinketh no Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE—Here it is, sir ! Here is the book ; it speaks for itself! (Cheers-) Mr. EARLE—Charity thinketh no ill ; but you think the worst. Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.—What has become of the pro ceedings? (Renewed applause.) Mr. EARLE.—I cannot say; but they are somewhere. Mr. BRIGHT said there was no business to enter. Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.—Then why not put that in? Why the blank leaves? Mr. AIKIN said on the very first page there was the ap pointment of a chairman of the committee, which was their first act. (Great confusion.) He claimed the right to ex plain how this had happened. The MAYOR said that Mr. Moore was in possession. Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE said that since Mr. Aikin was in clined to touch upon the matter, he would acquaint the council that the committee was appointed upon the 4th of February. Now, was it to be supposed that Mr. JAs. LAWRENCE.—Their appointment is not here. Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.—Their appointment was not there. That appointment was for the 17th of November, 1836, after the election for the second year. The blank leaves referred to the first year only ; consequently for the first year there was actually no entry at all ! (Cheers.) Now was it to be supposed that a committee, named on the 4th of February, would not meet till the 17th of November ? (Ilear.) He thought that Mr. Aikin's explanation would rather plunge him deeper into the mire. (Hear.) Mr. AIKIN said he had not been allowed to make it. Was he allowed to speak in explanation ? The MAYOR said Mr. Aikin was entitled to that. Mr. AIKIN.—WiII you allow me to make my explanation ? Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.—Yes, certainly, when I have done. Mr. EARLE said that Mr. Mkin ought to have the oppor tunity of explaining before Mr. Moore proceeded. Why did he wish to stop the truth from going forth ? Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.—Let the facts go forth ; and let Mr. Aikin contradict them, if he can. The blank leaves arc there ! You cannot get over that ! (Cheers.) Mr. EARLE.—Oh, they are all clap-traps—nothing else. Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE repeated that the blank leaves were there. He was not going into the general question ; but the evidence having been taken down, it was evident that the report must be founded upon that. As to Mr. Case's case, he thought that Mr. Bolton had most satisfactorily proved that Mr. Case had been dismissed for the efficient manner in which he had discharged his duties. (Loud cries of " No, no," and " Yes, yes.") That question was there fore disposed of. There was another point which he had to bring before the council. Mr. Abbott, to show that he was allowed to do business as a law stationer, used some remark able words. He held Mr. Abbott's letter in his hand, containing the resolution of the Finance Committee, which stated that the office hours were to be from nine to five arid later, whenever the work of the office might require it. Mark those words. Now, in looking over the treasurer's accounts, he (Mr. Moore) found a little item paid to Mr. Abbot for extra work in Mr. Okill's office, of £33 12s. 3d., although the resolution distinctly stated that the office hours should be from nine to five, and later whenever the work of the office required it. (Hear, hear.) He would say no more upon that subject, but pass on to the poll clerks. He had heard it stated, both in and out of doors, that Mr. Abbott's letter was a triumphant refutation of the committee's report. Now, so far from that being the case, he (Mr. Moore) should not let Mr. Abbott off so easily. What was the second pro position which he brought forward ? It was, that he ap pointed poll clerks as a law stationer, and not as clerk to Mr. Okill ; and he (Mr. Moore) would soon show the council what degree of credit was to be placed upon that statement. It had been satisfactorily shown, and could be proved by the evidence, that Mr. Abbott had appointed poll clerks, and divided the fees with them. The corporation allowed a guinea for each poll clerk ; and it could be satisfactorily shown, from Mr. Abbott's own evidence, that he divided the fees with them; that he put one half-guinea into his own pocket, and generously gave the poor starving poll-clerks the other half-guinea. This fact rested entirely upon his own admis sion ; therefore there could be no dispute about it. He said he did this as a law-stationer, and that he employed his own clerks. Now, if Mr. Abbott had done this, and his own clerks had acted as poll-clerks, he had, in that case, no busi ness to give them the half-guinea. If they were his own servants, he ought to have put the whole guinea into his own pocket ; and his position on this point was, therefore, mate rially worse than he supposed. It was quite clear that if Ire (Mr. Moore) sent one of his clerks, whom he paid by the week or the year, anywhere, that clerk was in the discharge of his service, and whatever he might earn cri that occasion, he (Mr. Moore), as the employer, was entitled to the whole of it. (Hear, hear.) So much for that part of Mr. Abbott's letter. He said be sent the clerks out of his own office ; but it was in evidence that he actually picked up one poor fellow in the streets, during the mayoralty of Mr. Bolton, which Mr. Bolton himself would be able to bear out. (Hear.) Mr. 13orrow.-1 have explained that. Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE wished to finish what he had to say without being interrupted. That poor man had gone to Mr. Bolton, the mayor, at the Town-hall, in a state of dis tress ; he told the mayor that he had not had n breakfast that morning, and Mr. Bolton furnished him with the means of procuring a breakfast for himself and his family. That poor man had been deprived of his half-guinea by Mr. Ab bott. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Abbott said the Town-clerk ap plied to him to get poll-clerks—see question 2236; but the Town-clerk, in reply to question 2334, said, " My course is to leave it to Tyson, with instructions to attend to no re commendations." Let the council put these two statements together, and say who was right. (Hear, hear.) To ques tion 2239, Mr. Abbott said, that it the Town-clerk gave a poll-clerk a guinea, he (Mr. Abbott) got half : they divided. The Town-clerk was asked if he had any knowledge of this, anti he said, " No, I have not." Now, upon referring to Mr. Tyson's evidence, he (Mr. Moore) found that in answer to question 2347, there was quite an opposition ; for while Mr. Abbott said the Town-clerk left the poll-clerks to him, Mr. Tyson said it was left to him, and that he applied to Mr. Abbott, or to attorneys' offices, to people out of em ployment, or to merchants' offices, for them. In his state ment, Mr. Abbott said he did not keep, although the infe rence was drawn from his own evidence, 12 or 14 clerks, from which he wished it to be inferred that the report was incorrect. He said his statement that he did keep 12 or 14 clerks referred only to an emergency in 1835, from which he would wish it to be implied that he did no such thing; but, on referring to his evidence, at question 2225, he (Mr. Moore) found that he there said, in his flippant, bombastic style, that he employed twelve or fourteen clerks, or, said he, " as many as I can find seats for." (Hear.) Further, on looking over the accounts, he (Mr. Moore) found, that out of 16 poll clerks employed, Mr. Abbott had furnished eight, and, of course, he pocketed eight half guineas by that trans action. (Hear. hear.) Then Mr. Abbott enjoyed a great many privileges. He had the advantage of having even his own clerks to work in the Town-hall : his clerks went there, and wrote, and earned money for him, which the corporation had to pay ; and he (Mr. Moore) found, on perusing the evi dence, that the corporation was an excellent paymaster to Mr. Abbott; for he sent in his bill on the Thursday, and it was paid on the Saturday. (Hear, hear.) That was for work done within the building. He (Mr. Moore) wished to call attention to another matter, since Mr. Abbott had brought himself so prominently before the public, and wished to throw discredit upon the report of the committee. He had been in the habit of taking stationery from the Town hall to his own office. Now that did not rest on his (Mr. Moore's) assertion ; for if the council would refer to ques tions 2232 and 2233, they would there find it recorded upon his own evidence. At question 2312 the Town-clerk was asked if he had any knowledge of this, and he said no. And Mr. Abbott was in the habit of charging for paper too. Mr. BOLTON said his impression was that when the paper was found there was a less charge made for the sheet. Mr. LLOYD said it was thus. Mr. Abbott had stated, that for the last eighteen months he had been in the habit of di recting his clerks to go to the Town-hall for stationery when it was wanted,for the Town-clerk's business ; but on looking over some of his bills they were found to contradict him, for stationery was charged for by him. The Town-clerk told the committee he did not know that stationery was taken from the office; but that if the work was done in the office sta tionery was supplied. Now Mr. Abbott, in his evidence, told the committee that he charged a penny a sheet for paper. The committee observed upon so much paper being charged for, and that the Council was paying almost as much for a sheet as for a quire, and on calling the Town-clerk in he knew nothing of it. It was then that they ascertained that Mr. Abbott took down stationery to his own office. Mr. TURNER.—Do you mean that he took it for his own purposes ? Mr. LLOYD.—He charges for stationery; and we cannot distinguish which is which. Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORS resumed.—He had now disposed, and he hoped satisfactorily, of the two grand arguments of Mr. Abbott; but, if the council thought he had not, he was prepared to go further into them. He had shown the council that a great deal of Mr. Abbott's own evidence was contra dicted by the evidence of the Town-clerk and Mr. Tyson ; and, therefore, he (Mr. Moore) thought that that report was not only fair, but that it was mild—that the chairman had drawn it up exceedingly mild— Mr. EARLE.—Oh, sweet, indeed ! Mr. BumweEv-MoottE continued—lf the subject were fol lowed up, as it would be upon a future occasion, it would then be shewn that the report had been drawn up, not in the feeling which had been hinted at, but with a great dealof mildness. (Hear, hear.) When they found such things going on as these, that the corporate estate was managed in such a mode as this, that the fees received in the office were put into a bowl, that the bowl was placed upon a table, that the fees were put into the bowl without being entered in any book or a check kept—(hear, hear)—that at night the mo ney was counted, and the corporation got credit for what was found there—he would ask the council whether this was a state of things to be allowed any longer? If a merchant were to have his business transacted in such a manner as that, where would he be? Why be would very soon be in the Gazette, and remain to the last day of his life an uncer tificated bankrupt. (Great applause.) Mr. BRIGHT deemed it expedient to enter into some ex planations with regard to the work of the Borough Court and Court of Requests' Committee. In the early part of 1836, he moved that an application be made to parliament for an act to improve the working of the Borough Court, and the proceedings ceased till an act was obtained. The act came into force in August, and the committee had nothing to do in the interim. The appointment of the treasurer was reported. Mr. Bwtmatv-AioowE.—How did you spend your time between February and November ? Mr. BRIGHT.—We had nothing to do. Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE. — Then it ought to have been re gistered here. Mr. AIKIN, after expressing his dissatisfaction with the report, confirmed what Mr. Bright had stated with regard to the Borough Court and Court of Requests' Committee hav ing had nothing to do till the act passed. After the act passed, the committee met and proceeded to the election of a chairman, which was the first thing recorded in the book. Mr. 13ttAiattY-Mocittr..--Theti why are all these leaves left blank? Here they are, sir! (Cheers.) Mr. AIKIN.—To the innocent mind all things are inno cent. " Honi soil qui anal y perm." Mr. PROCTER stated that Mr. Bolton, who was a member of the Borough Court Committee of that day, stated in the Paid Officers' Committee, that though he could not tell what was done he knew that the Chairman made his own memoran da, and put them into his pocket. That was not the same version as Mr. Aikin's and Mr. Bright's. If the committee had appointed a chairman, why had not the other proceed ings been entered ? Why were these •1$ pages left blank ? it must have been for some purpose. Mr. BRIGHT said the committee had, in fact, done nothing but given notice of their intention to apply to parliament. Mr. BRAMECY-MOORE.—Then that ought to have been recorded, but it is not. Mr. BOLTON wished to say a word in explanation of an observation by Mr. Procter. At the commencement of the council proceedings in January 1836 several committees were appointed, and among others the Paid Officers' Committee, of which he was a member. The course of proceeding was this—it was the duty either of the Town-clerk, a: the Clerk of committees, to keep a record of all the proceedings of Committees. It was thought advisable that this committee should not be encumbered by any officer, because questions might be put which it was desirable they should be kept ig norant of—therefore, of the preliminary enquiries, as to the manner in which the officers discharged their duties, and so on, there was no record whatever. There certainly was none in the Paid Officers' Committee till the report was published on the 2nd March, 1836. Mr. PROCTER said that, from that, it was clear that the memorandums spoken of were intended to be filed ; but still, why were all these leaves left blank? (Hear, hear.) Mr. BOLTON.—The documents themselves were handed over for record, either to the Town Clerk or the Clerk of Committees. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HonGsoN expressed his regret that there should have bests so much personal discussion, but he' attributed that to those who were commonly the great disturbers of the pro ceedings. He regretted the course which the debate had taken, and he thought it would have been much better left until the whole evidence was before them. He was satisfied, however, that in the report, no more allusion to persons than was necessary to illustrate the fact of their position ; indeed, it would have been impossible to have conveyed an idea of their situation without showing in whose department the irregularities appeared, or where the want of system and management existed. But there was one important point in the report which • had forcibly struck him in reading it over, and which seemed a subject for explanation. It seemed to him important to have some statement of the regulations under which the different officers were called upon to conduct the duties committed to their charge, which at present appeared to be a jumble, so that the council might be enabled to arrive at a just conclusion. Now, from the blank leaves, he thought he was justified in inferring past mismanagement, and that the business of the corpora tion had been so utterly without rule and regulation, that parties had been allowed to act just according to their own self-will. And, though the council might be called upon to make great changes, they must, nevertheless, deal very leniently with those persons who had had no rule or regula tion. Let the cap fit where it ought. If the late dominant party who had so long held power, had left the thing in such a state .that there was neither rule nor regulation for the officers to guide themselves by, who was to blame ? Surely not the officers ; but the men who, in the true spirit of liber alism, first introduced reporters to publish their proceedings, and who were afterwards the very first to complain of their publication. Mr. EARLE.-Oh, the Angel ! Mr. HODGSON said, that in order to enable the council to make a just comparison, what was now most wanted, was the evidence; and therefore he moved that the evid ence , suc h as had already been taken before the committee, and in conti nuation, such as should be taken before the committee, he printed (not published) for the use of the members of the council, and each member of the council be furnished with a copy. Mr. ASFINALL seconded the motion. Mr. EARLE said they had sometimes heard a great deal about the necessity for the practice of economy with regard to the corporation funds. Upon my word, continued he, to go and publish such a long ri gma , ole as this would be money extremely ill spent. We can all read it if we like. As Mr. Hodgson has had a slap at liberalism, and as I always take pleasure in rapping at him when I can, I here state that no body cares one button top for what he says; and that he knows. I tell him that from his own party ! I tell you the truth, Sir ! (Great confusion, and cries of " Order.") Mr. BIRKETT.—I think I know some little of the feeling of the conservative party to which I have the honour to belong—quite as much as Mr. Earle—and I can give a most unqualified contradiction to what Mr. Earle has just stated. (Cheers.) Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE spoke in high terms of the services of Mr. Okill, and said that the reason of his absence from the meetings of the committee was, that he had received per mission from the Finance Committee to be absent for a few days while superintending the removal of his effects from , Bootle to Childwall. After some further discussion, Mr. Hodgson's motion for printing the evidence was withdrawn, at the request of Mr. LLOYD, who replied at considerable length upon the whole case. The motion proposed by Mr. Lloyd was then agreed to. The last council of the municipal year was appointed to be held on Saturday, the 29th instant, and the council separated at four o'clock. MEETING OF THE DOCK COMMITTEE. The weekly mceting of the Dock Committee was held yesterday, when the following members were present :—Messrs. Sands (chair man), Horsfall, Barclay, Middleton, Molyneux, Nicol, Holt, Holmes, Aikin, Evans, Bulley, Tobin, Bold, ,Shand, and Mellor. A deputation from the Shipbuilders' Association, consisting of Mr. Wilson, Mr. Royden, and Mr. Milchrist, were introduced ; and also the North and South Harbour masters, and Mr. M`Bricie (master of Clarence Dock), for the purpose of laying before the committee their opinions upon the proposed lengthening of the Clarence South Graving Dock. The dock officers were unanimously opposed to it, on the ground that it would interfere with the working of the Clarence dock ; the deputation then pointed out the mode by which all the alleged inconvenience might be obviated, and strongly impressed upon the committee the necessity for in creased graving dock accommodation. The parties then re tired, and the committee, after having deliberated upon their testimony, decided, by a majority of nine against six, that the graving dock should be lengthened, but the consideration of the exact length, whether for three or four ships, was posponed till Thursday next. Some explanations were then entered into respectinewarehouses upon the dock quays with reference to Sir John Hall's opinion thereon ; and Mr. Bold, in justification of what he had stated at a former meeting upon the insurance of them, produced a letter from Mr. Hamilton, of London, secretary to one of the offices there, who stated that the objectionable character of ware houses would materially increase the risk, and consequently the premium of insurance in them. The committee then se parated, MUNICIPAL ELECTION.—The following is, to the best of our information, a list of the candidates declared to come forward at the approaching municipal contest :— Wards. Conservatives. Radicals. 1. Everton . 2. Scotland 3. Vauxhall . 4. St. Paul's Thompson Deakin 5. Exchange North Mellor 6. Castle-street 7. Gibraltar 8. Pitt-street. 9. Great George *Royden None 10. Rodney -street J. N. Wood None 11. Abereromby . 12. Lime-street 13. Saint Anne's 14. West Derby . tPlumpton None xteth 15. South To _ _ 16. North Toxteth Sheppard None * We beard last night that Mr. Robinson does not come forward again. We have not mentioned Mr. J. Smith as a candidate, anticipating his retirement before the Ist of November. BOY RUN OVER.—As a cart loaded with coal was passing Chisenhall-bridge yesterday, a lad, about twelve years old, seeing a stone before the wheel of the cart went to remove it, when unfortunately his foot slipped, and the wheel passed along his leg and ancle, horribly mutilating both. The un fortunate sufferer was removed to the Hospital. EXTENSIVE ROBBERY.—Yesterday, two men and four wo men—Charles Livingston, John Wilson, (real name Blake,) Margaret Rowlands, Elizabeth Simpkins, and Elizabeth Jen kins,—were placed at the bar of the police-court, on a charge of having stolen a quantity of boots and shoes from a shop in Park-lane, while the family were at church. A young woman stated that she lived as servant on the premises, which were kept by Mrs. Mary Nichol. She left the house at a quarter before six o'clock on Sunday evening. No one else was in when she left. The back door was fast, and leaving the gas in the shop burning a little, she shut the door, which has a snap-lock. She returned at a quarter past eight o'clock, and found the door open and the place in darkness. She became alarmed, and on procuring a light found that the shop had been broken into, and that the shelves bad been stripped of a large quantity of boots and shoes. A statement of the missing property as handed soon afterwards to the po lice, and printed and distributed next morning amongst the pawnbrokers, was then handed in. It included 31 pairs of women's boots, and men's, women's, and chil dren's shoes—amountin g in all to about 46 pairs. —In spector Savage stated, that on hearing some information of the robbery, he went to the prisoner's, (Margaret Row lands,) who keeps a public-house in Frederick-street, corner of Dickenson-street. A man of whom he was in search had left the house, but he found in the cellar, under a cask, eight pairs of women's boots (produced.) He observed that Mrs. Rowlands was uneasy, and wished to leave the cellar with something she had in her hand, but he would not allow her, and she afterwards dropped a bag, containing a number of pawn-tickets (produced.) The boots were identified by Mrs. Nichol, as her property. A shawl, in which some of them were, was also produced, and though not at first missed from Mrs. Nichol's, was identified as also her property.—lnspector Fresh also went to the house, and amongst a quantity of rags found three pairs of boots, which were identified, and also two pairs more under a large cask. Another inspector found others of the articles on the same premises. —A little girl, servant to the prisoner Mrs. Rowlands, said the two male prisoners lodged in the house. Livingston and the other man both came to the house on Sunday night, and brought the boots and shoes. They asked her mistress to allow them to be put into the cellar, and she consented, and told witness to take them there, which she .did. On Monday she was sent to; bring them out of the cellar, which she did. Mrs.' Simpkin and her mistress were in the kitchen, and also Living ston. The females tried some of them on. (It afterwards appeared that the two females had each a pair of the boots on when they were apprehended.) The witness, by direction of Mrs. Rowland's, afterwards pledged another pair. —A considerable number of pawnbrokers, with whom boots had been pledged, were then successively called. With all of them a pair or more of boots had been pledged—chiefly by the prisoner Simpkin (who had a child in her arms), and was generally accompanied by one or other of the female prisoners, against all of whom the evidence as to participation in the robbery was sufficiently strong to satisfy the bench. The whole of the boots, produced were identifi e d by Mrs. Ni c hol, or some of the family; and all of them were recovered with the exception of about six p a i rs . Th e pri soners were all committed for trial at the sessio ns . O n; of the male prisoners, in particular, is well known as an o ld offender ; and Mrs. Rowlands, it will be remembered, was, last year, tried, convicted, and suffered six m on th s ' imprison ment for being concerned in stealing or receiving a carpet which was found in her cellar. The King of Bavaria has established Chambers of:Com merce in each of his towns. Leave of absence to an officer cannot now be given without the express sanction in writing of his Grace the Duke of Wellington. The Castellano of Madrid states, that a priest of Rivadavia has just died at the age of 112. This man, during the latter years of his life, made seven meals a -d ay. smo k e d i n the same period twenty-four cigarettes, and took half an ounce of snuff. Doubts are now expressed by several of the French jour- nals whether, after all the enormou s expense that has been incurred relative to the Artesian well in Paris, it can be made of any practical use. A few days ago the water was said to be as clear as crystal, but it is now stated that a good deal of sand is mired with it. TO CORRESPONDENTS. We have ea received the Manchester Chronicle for several weeks. "J. Fl." The verses of this writer, although pretty, do not come up to our standard. " Ignotus Haud Ignarns" is unreasonable, but we can afford to pass by his ignorant and ill-natured remarks. Some poetry and a letter from " Anglo Catholicus" stand over. We were unable to send the papers by the first post on Tues day last, which will account for any irregularity in their delivery to our country subscribers. We are sorry to have given " An Episcopalian" unnecessary offence. The difference between us is extremely slight; and we feel persuaded that if the question to which he alludes were argued by us, the entire point of differ•- ence would resolve itself into a dispute about words. NON TALI Auxielo.—Our correspondent, we dare say, is quite right with respect to the cause which is said to have influenced Mr. Robinson, of Great George's-street, in withdrawing his pretensions to represent that ward. The support of such a journal as that to which he refers, would damn any candidate. The Correspondent who offers us, for the purpose of being lithographed, a drawing of Mr. William Earle in the fight ing attitude which he assumed towards Mr. David Hodg son, on Wednesday's council, is thanked. The exhibition of lulus nature in Leigh-street would be his market, if he could manage the subject in wax work. We are compelled to postpone " A Few Thoughts on Wednes day's Council;" and when we do insert them, we shall take the liberty of changing the title. The public is nau seated with the balderdash which appears thus headed in the columns of a contemporary; and as our correspondent is evidently " a thinking man," and not a mere jay in the feathers of an owl, we shall not subject his communication to the suspicion of emanating from a similar silly source. To a correspondent who addresses us for the purpose of re plying to the circular, recently issued by Mr. James Abbott, and commented upon by various Radical contem poraries, we say, read the able exposition of this per son's conduct, given by Mr. Bramley-Moore, in Wednes day's council. After such a tomahawking, Mr. Abbott looks quite as foolish—and something else—as our corres • pondent could possibly wish him. By this time we dare say the 44 Clerk to the Clerk of Committees" has intimated as much to his double, the law stationer. A charge of inconsistency, such as that referred to by" S J," who reiterates a few of the witticisms of Mr. Alderman Earle, is easily brought, but in this instance is not very easily proved. Mr. Parker, in his remarks before the Birkenhead Commissioners, argued for the stoppage of the steam-boats on Sundays during the hours of divine service, and we are not aware that he offered the slightest obstacle to the closing of the public-houses during the same period, but on the contrary, was always anxious they should be so closed. Paobably, if Mr. Parker were afforded an oppor tunity, he could place the matter in a stronger light than this ; but we merely state the circumstances as they strike us at the moment, for the satisfaction of our correspondent. Mr. Parker is pursued with unrelenting hatred not only by his unscrupulous opponents, but is sometimes ungene rously assailed by parties who profess to be guided by the same principles as himself. Let him, however, persevere, and he will obtain the support of all whose opinion or good wishes are of the slightest value. ETA' Ribtrpool tan Darb. FRIDAY MORNING, OCTOBER 21, 1842. In the speech of Mr. George Hall Lawrence, at the recent meeting in West Derby Ward, there is one position in particular to which we cannot at all accord our assent; and yet, from the frequency with which it has been put forward by the same gentleman, both in the Council and out of it, we suspect that it is viewed by him as incontrovertible. Mr. Lawrence is " sorry that the Council has interfered at all in the question of education ;" that it has undertaken to provide educa tion of any description for the poor of the borough. It ought not to be " an educating body;'' but why it ought not Mr. Lawrence gives no reason, good or bad ; and we are therefore left to surmise and to suspect that the real objection is the inconvenient necessity which is imposed upon hesitating and wavering Con servatives to make up their minds with respect to the nature of the education to be afforded. Putting out of view, for the present, the question as to the system of education to be adopted in the schools of the Corporation, we must maintain, in direct oppo sition to the opinion of that gentleman and those who think with him, that it is both good and proper that the Council should be "an educating body." It is the bounden duty of the Council to provide for the education of the community for whose local wants it legislates. We deem it indeed almost criminal, and at any rate most unwise, in any body similarly consti tuted, to neglect so important a duty. Better, undoubt edly, than any sanitory regulations; and better than the most effective police—more conducive to the end which these merely restrictive engines have in view— is the diffusion of sound scriptural education amongst the people. All experience goes in support of this assertion ; and for a public body, invested with the responsibility and the power of providing for the health, the morality, and the security of a large _corn munity, to confine its views to merely watching and paving, to police and prison regulations, whilst it neglects the far more important and effective aid which the diffusion of sound scriptural education would afford even to the temporal objeCts which they contemplate, is, we repeat, unwise, and almost cri minal. And well indeed would it be for the nation, and for mankind, if the principle for which we here contend had been universally acted upon. For to what, let us ask, is to be attributed the mass of immorality, and consequent misery, which is to be witnessed amongst our large towns; and which is at this moment im posing upon ourselves the necessity of erecting an ad ditional prison at an expense of not less than one hun dred and fifty pounds ? To this. We have drawn toge ther, by our commerce or our manufactures, large numbers of our fellow-beings, to toil for us; and we have restricted the guardianship offered them by the law to a mere care for their bodily wants and their bodily safety We have either given to the population around us no education at all, or that which is almost worse than none. We have never sought or adopted the proper means to make that population a Christian population and the result is before our eyes—in our expensiv police, our gigantic workhouses, and our crowded prisons. The want of sound scriptural teaching to the children of their poor in time past, is the source of the crime and want which pervades them. Schools, not prisons, should be the remedy. And we ask, i 8 any government, local 9r national, a wise government, which shall tell us, with `Zr. Lawrence,—we are a watching, lighting, and imprisoning body, but it is beyond our duty to become " an educating body" ? The Council cannot better work out its acknowledged legitimate objects than by promoting the education of the people—than by becoming an instructor o f the children of the poor; and, this admitted, we come to the question,—what is the nature of the instruction which it is bound to provide ? 'What, in fact, 0 EDUCATION, viewed as an instrument to effect the purposes which all governing bodies have in view- - the increased comfort, morality, and security of the people ? We answer, SCRIPTURAL TEACHING, not because the law enjoins that it should be such—that it should be, in fact, more than this, a teaching in the Scriptures as interpreted by the Church of :England ; but because experience has proved that none other is efective, even for the purposes of the utilitarian him sett' ! For mere secular education, we entertain a prOfound contempt. It never made a man WISER, in the true acceptation of the word, or BETTER. In this opinion we find ourselves confirmed by a powerful contemporary, the London Times, who has of late devoted his valuable columns to the advance ment of a system of scriptural education by her Majesty's Council. " The most acute memory for facts," wrote that journal. on Wednesday last, " the most cunning skill in art, and the most rapid and comprehensive, nay, even the most cultivated power of investigating the depths and intricacies of science' are quite compatible with the most consummate rascality -- quite compatible with the most finished immorality—the most subtle and irreligious faithlessness. We do not, of course, mean to say that a diligent training in the arts and sciences does not tend to refine, or even to purify, the mind ; and we should be the very last persons to say that such train ing, when well directed, and made a subordinate part of a sound system of teaching, is not the greatest and roost powerful of moral agents ; but by itself it is, as we see in its too frequent results, quite capable of co-existing with the worst immorality. And when it becomes not a discipline• but a mere dry teaching of facts, as e.g. the distance to the moon, the right ascension of Sirius, or the existing of HERCULES or WAT TYLER, its moral effects are even rather pernicious than otherwise. A little knowledge is then found► as in a late memorable case, to be a dangerous, a very danger ous thing." Nor is that neutral kind of instruction in religion , towards which the feelings of Mr. George Hall Lawrence are evidently wandering, much better that , mere secular education. On this point, too, perhaps , he may be desirous of hearing the opinion of the same writer. " The plain practical view of the case is, that this sort of neutral knowledge can neither make a boy better nor worse. Let people open their eyes to the fact that the greatest rascals have been in many instances extremely proficient in their acquaintance even with Scriptural facts. A man who bunts. through the whole sacred volume in search of what he think*