The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-01-05 00:00:00

49 I 014)L„ - jANUAItie 5, isa6. cenreu~a' it=+'; +o ,r; :,~ - =sue w. ~,,,, ~,~+~+wc"r~ FIRST GENERAL MEETING OF COUNCILLORS. tion for many years. . He thought the compen sation should fall on the public, and not on the corporation. He should be in no hurry to dismiss Mr. Foster, c onsidering, that his office was to be held during pleasure, and that the day after they might dis miss hhn. Mr. Councillor Bo ITON could have wished that they were free to adjourn the consideration of this question until a cenninittee should be appointed to examine into the state of the town-clerk's offices, and other various branches of the expeuditure of the cor poration, with the view of either continuing.or not severa.lof the appointments, and in all cases to make efficient reduction in the salaries or 'emoluments which those individuals the town clerk, from whatliad been then stated, he conceived they must come to some determination that day. There was one question which would, if the, present town-clerk were continued, place them in an awkward situation. That question was this, —they were aware that he had with considerable ability, supported by the council, been recently engaged in endowing the churches. He did not know that he had any right to express the opinion of the town; but he believed that they knew theelhere was con siderable opposition to that endowment. Very likely the first question which would be brougLit before them would be that the endowment should be set aside; how, under such circumstances, c ould they ask for the professio nal services of that gentleman who had exerted himself so much in obtaining that endoWment. That was a very great difficulty in the appointment of Mr. Ifo,s ter . as town-clerk. But for that circumstance•he would moet readily have acquiesced in his reappointment, with the under derstanding-that it was for a short time, provided he would do what Mr. Radcliffe had offered to do. If the council should,de cide to set aside the endow ment, he would appeal to any now, present, how was it possible they could ask for the a bil i ty of the town-clerk to undo what he he' had been taking so much pains to perform? Mr. Councillor Hoeseeere—Can't we employ another man for that particular duty. Mr. Councillor BOLTON.—I beg your pardon, we shall not pay any other man to do that which the town-clerk is paid for doing. The MAYOR.—If any one is employed for such an object- he must be paid fur what he does', and therefore it is not putting the town-council to any expense. If the town.clerk were to be employed he would have to be paid for it. He therefore should say, prudence would point out the propriety, in such a case as that, in appointing some other person. Mr. Councillor EARLE.—Though he thought the town-clerk might have acted very differeutly on many occasions to what he had done, yet he dill think the evil of dismissing him would be greater than that of retaining him fer the present, and allow ing some other person to do that business; and. he was sure Mr. Foster - would think it his duty to remain perfectly silent on that point. . • Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN.—In the position in which they were placed he conceived if he read the' act right, that it was perfectly competent int . Mr. Foster to withdraw from his office unless they chose to continue him in all its emoluments; that is, that he shall have ,no reduction in any shape without his Cone sent and concurrence: if he refuse to grant such consent and concurrence then he. is entitled to all the compensation whether they chose to give it him or not. He thought that exceedingly modified the view they might take in the matter. Mr. Foster had them completely on the hip. He had the power to com pel them to pay that compensation if _he should refuse to have his emoluments taken away. He'thought it extremely proba ble that he would insist in the continuance of the office with the present emoluments, or the obtaining of all the compensa tion which the act of parliament compels the town-council to give him. He would suggest whether it would not be best at once to look the difficulty in the face, and if the majority of the council thought with him, that they should elect another officer. They could not expect that Mr. Foster would harmonize with them in the arrangements they intended to make. There was another view of the s ubject. It had been said that the town clerks duties might, with great advantage to the community, be divided into several departments. If . a committee should be appointed to report to them all the emoluments and the various offices into which the town-clerk's present duties might be di vided, they were in Mr. Foster's power in that respect. They could not appoint a committee to make these inquiries without his consent. Besides, Mr. Foster, if they should appoint any one to any of his offices who might fill them at less expense to the public, might make the saute charge as ever, and if ever they attempted to curtail his emoluments, he might immedi ately close on them if twenty years had elapsed, and demand the compensation. The MAYOR.—The motion proposed by Mr. Aikin was, that they should continue the town-clerk's appointment until time had been given to.a committee to inquire into what his duties were. Mr. Blackburn was not keeping to the motion. Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN thought he was keeping to' the motion. He had no wish to detain the council. He thought they would deceive themselves, if they entertained themselves with the notion that Mr. Foster would not press en that council all the advantage the act had given him. He took that as a first principle which ought to guide them. However long they might ,wait, he was persuaded that Mr. Foster would continue either, on the one hand, to enjoy all the emoluments of the office, or to demand all the compensation which the act entitled him to. That;Veieg the case, was it not their wisest plan to look the difficulty in the face, and dismiss Mr. Foster, which would place them in a situation to carry forward their inquiries, and by which, he had no doubt, a very considerable saving might Le made in the public expenditure, which would go a great way towards the compensation. They were returned by the reformers iu that town ; and, whether justly or unjustly, Mr. Foster did not stand well in the eyes of the reformers of Liverpool, and they should gain nothing if they refrained from striving to turn him out on the first opportunity. Mr. Foster would enforce the rights the act had given him. lie did not say he would be wrong in doing so ; but he thought they would be sh)witg the purity of their own principles and the decision and determination of their proceedings, if they boldly and at once ' dismissed him from the office. Ile should, therefore, remain by the resolution proposed by Mr. Rathbone. Mr. Councillor Setae rose and felt considerable difficulty in addressingthene. It was a question of very ,great importance, and one on which they could not reflect on with too much care. He rose, perhaps, with a little more hesitation, because he should be obliged to vote contrary to what might be expected from him. He was returned as a reformer, and he was in principle au ultra-reformer; but he decidedly objected to a stranger being . appointed to the office of town-clerk befere they knew the duties which *ere to be performed by him, or the fit ness of the persoteeppointed to perforrnitiem.. He looked on this as a very complicated ques tion, and they were bound to take a mature view of both sides of it. They must not lose sight of the compensation to which Mr. Foster, if dismissed, was entitled by law. And again, the bode under which Mr. Foster had acted had acted in direct opposition to those princi ples which he conceived were the only correct ones in the ma nagement of the public affairs. Mr. Foster was the paid ser vant of that body. and Mr. Foster might have acted conscienti entiously or nut; hut he was hound to ascertain what his con- • duct was, and what it wns likely to be, before he at once dis missed him and allowed him this very heavy compensation to which hr would_ be entitled. He did not know that it would be desirable to dismiss him ; he was totally ignorant of the facts of the case. He therefore would say . that if he were to proceed hastily he would be doing a gross injustice to those who had sent him there. 'To act for their advantage he must know what their interests were ; and until he was placed in that situ . - ation, he Should be acting the part of a child to proceed. He coincided in what Mr. Aikin had said, that they should ap point a comMittee to inquire into the circumstances of Mr. Foster's situation into the duties he had to perform, and see how his emoluments arose. And if they did not find them cor rect, and compensation was to be in proportion, they should have information on which they could go to the Lords of the Treasury and say" he has squandered the public money, and we . will not allow lmimd a compensation based on that ; if . you take on yoursel yes the responsibility of compensating him, in God's name do it, we will not." He therefore begged leave to say he would vote for the amendment as proposed by Mr. Aikin. Mr. Councillor Hors took the same view. as the mover and seconder of the motion had taken. He thought it desirable to appoint a successor. He was quite satisfied that, however ably and faithfully Mr. Foster might have executed his duties in times past, under his late employers, he did not think they could, under the changed circumstances in which they stood, repre senting as - they did the majority of time rate-payers in the town, give him their entire confidence as town-clerk. By the opinions expressed by Mr. Lawrence and another eminent barrister, they appeared to be in this dilemma, that they could not adjourn ; they must therefore do• either one or the oth er thing, agree to appoint Mr. Foster, or agree to dismiss him and appoint some one else. He should exweess by his vote his opinion that Mr. Foster could not fulfil thw wishes of the present council. He should say he agreed with Mr. Rathbone's proposition. He should-lament if they were called on to take any precipitate step at the present moment. He wished no disrespect to Mr: Fos ter, and that being' done he expressed no preference at all to Mr. Radcliffe, who had been nominated. Let it be distinctly understood ho was not pledged to Mr. Radcliffe holding the situation one day longer than the c ouncil should think good." Mr. Councillor 8 n A II etes should not be doing his duty if he did not express his sentiments on the question. He had endea voured to bring his mind to bear on the question; and knowing the feeling of his constituents he had endeavoured for the last three or four days to give the subject his earnest attention, and lie had also heard legal opinions on the subject, and his mind was made up. The towreclerk had not the approbation of his contituents or their wish that he should remain in his present office. He, in, consequence, had begun to look about hiueto see if any means could be devised by which the town-clerk could be put from his situation without compensation, or in some way with less of compensation. He had got the best legal advice he could about it, He had asked, with reference to getting the town-clerk out without compensation, or with the least compen sation, and the answer was, " there is no chance whatever,• the town-clerk's remuneration was the price of the bill itself.: They have guarded themselves in every possible way, and there is not a possibility pf,getting them out without passing the full penalty of the bill!' That being his impression, he then. said the wish of his constituents was, that-the town-clerk should not remain in office ; then he came zit once to the conviction th at the better plan would be to turn him out. He was convinced that was the opinion of his constituents, and was his own feeling. lie had. a duty to perform , and he should do it feat iessly and conscien tiously. It bad been said that the town-clerk expected £40,000 or £50,000; that was a mere assertion, for they had very little to guide them on the subject For he understood that they had to state what his compensation was to be; that the council had that power; and if he objected to it they would have the means, on turning him away, of examining into his accounts and form ing some judgment: He was unite surptised that any gentleman who had been returned as a reformer could think of looking at him in this new state of things. He knew not Mr. Foster, he only spole as' expressing the opinions of the reformers of the town generally, that Mr. Foster should not be considered town clerk. lie supported at once Mr. Rathboue'S motion. At the ' same time he must say this, and he wished it to be understood, that in appointing Mr. Radcliffe to the duties of town-clerk he did it in accdrdence with the . wishes of his' constituents, that the present !An-clerk should not be elected; and in appointing Mr. iitiackiffe pro tempore he felt himself as perfectly open, to vote fin...another as if he (Mr. Radcliffe) had not beeu men tioned at all. The MAYOR.—Mr. Sharpies had fallen into an error; they had no power of taming the compensation for the town-clerk he himself had the. power of naming - his own compensation. Thee had the pOwer of examining him on oath relative to his books and papers, and dissenting, if they thought right, from the compensation fixed by him; and if he was dissatisfied he had the power of appealing to the Lords of the Treasury to adjudi cate on his claim. Mr. Councillor JORDAN.—Sir, I beg to say that Mr. Sharpies makes a reflection upon myself and many ether votereformers when he says that no conscientious reformer could for Mr. Foster. I have— The MAY 01G-1 am quite sure Mr. Sharpies did not mean to reflect upon .any gentleman. Mr. Councillor SH AR PLES.—I certainly did not. I think Mr. Jordan as much in earnest as myself. Mr. Councillor COG LAN said, to those gentlemen whose views were not guided -by preceding circumstances, and who did not enter into the broad question of public affairs in this community, and who wished to view the subject prospectively, without being guided by thevast, it might perhaps be very desirable to act on the suggestion of Mr. Aikin that they should appoint a com mittee to inquire into all the circumstances of the case before they came to,a decision; en , ' thus, after they had heard all that could be learned from the various inquiries of the committee, decide whether Mr. Foster was to be continued or whether another pee son should be appointed in his place. If gentlemen Ou Friday, according to the order iu council, the councillors for the borough of Liverpool held their first general meeting for the purpose of electing a mayor, town-clerk, and other towns- Officers under the new municipal bill. The reporters for the icress sent notes into the council -room .to inquire if they would be admitted. After some considerable delay occurring from the misunderstanding of one of the attendants, we were admit ted at about one o'clock. the business of the meeting having Commenced at twelve o'elock. The following is what we have been enabled to glean as having taken place previous to our entry : 'HIE LIVERPOOL .STAN .DA ?it.b r~+.er~~raz~ane:'i+aT~' to the three questions being put. Mr. Rathbone then said that if Mr. Foster said "Yes" to. -- these questions. he would rest his • case upon that. .The MAYOR.---I would suggest that after the town-clerk has been asked these questions, I. should requez , t, him to. retire;_ it will then be better for Mr.. Rathbone to state whether he is sa- came to this conclusion, that they would be entirely guided by the information thus obtained, and if they find Mr. Foster ap pears•tO be the most eligible person to hold the office, that they will continue him, then the motion was quite regularand proper. BM' to"those' who knew anything at all of the feelings of the community, and considered that essential as bearing on the question, he thought, without the slightest mark of disrespect to Mr. Foster, that the feelings of the great mass of the commu nity would not be in unison with his being the regular legal agent of the: reformed common council. If therefore, feeling that they could not with deference to the political feelings of the. community and their local feelingsif they could not consult Mr. Foster ii4erfect harmony nu all the difficult subjects on. which it might The necessary to consult him—what ought they to do ? If they could come to the conclusion that he would still maintainshis original sentiments, that he would not swerve from those 'sentiments on which he had hitherto acted, that he was a person who had not professed these opinions as the servant merely of a public body, but also from the honourable impulses of • his mind. It' they came to the conclusion that Mr. Foster would still act in the same line of politics, so far as his senti ments and opinions went, what were they obtainingliycontinuing, Mini in office, if he should proceed, during the period of this in quiry, in the • same cour se ? They would, during the whole period of this inquiry, lose the sum—the enormous sum—Mr. Foster would demand. By adopting the plan proposed by Mr. Bathbone he thought they would be acting more in consonance with the feelings of the great mass of the people, and harmonise with the great object they wished to accomplish—which he ap prehended was to pursue the course of economy—which course could be best followed by the dismissal of Mr. Foster. And this would not be a mat k of disgrace, but merely that the cons men council wished to elect another gentleman more likely to carry into effect their wishes. He thought it would be more consonant to the feelings of the. people, to all their feelings, to Mr. Foster's own 'feelings, that another law officer should be ,appointed in his stead. Mr. Councillor S IT H.—They were'placed in'an awful predi cament indeed. '.They were told that it was utterly impossible to supply the place of Mr. Foster on the score of talent. He believed that would not be found the fact. He would not ex , press any opinion on that point. The MAYOU. had not heard any such opinion expressed ,with regard to Mr. Foster. Mr. Councillor SMITH.—It is a very common remark out of doors. The MAYOR.—That we have nothing to do with, Mr. Smith Mr. Councillor SMITH.—He was perfectly in order. Mr. Brocklebank had said he did not know where the money was to come from. The case stood thus:—that while ir. Foster was town-clerk, he must receive certain emoluments, and while he was their servant, they must give him a certain salary. Now if this was the case, and if those em oluments were a great deal more than' . it was presumed they ought to be —if they could get the same business done on more economical terms, there could be .no question that it must eventually be a saving, and they ought to pursue that course.---, 'lf there was any diffichlty in obtaining the money, and if they could prove to the public that it would be economical to dismiss Mr. Foster,—(they certainly required information on those points;)—if they were prepared to say that other men of equal talent and ability would do t he work for less, he would be bound for it that many men of capital would be found ready to advance the money, if necessary, for the compen sation. Mr. Councillor "BLACKBURN would wish to ask• Mr. Law rence, if the town-clerk sent in the amount of his claim for compensation, had the council the power to examine hOn on oath with regard to it. Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE.—They had the power. Mr. Councillor Aims; would beg to ask the Mayor if it were in order for the mover of an amendment to speak in reply? The Ma von.—l believe not. Mr. Councillor CROPPER would be glad to know if any one Present could speak with any degree of certainty as to the pro bable amount. which the town-clerk had received from the cor, poraton of Liverpool annually. It seemed to him rather an important feature in the question from the very small emolu ment derived from their funds. The MAYOR.—AII-the emolument he received from the cor poration was one hundred guineas. His other emolunietiis fluctuated with the business to be done. The town-clerk made no greater charge than any other professional gentleman would make. Mr. Alderman FREME thought, as this was perhaps one of the most important questions which would come before them, they would do well to consider before they proceeded. Mr. Councillor SMITH (addressing the mayor.) , --Sir, you . called me to order when I spoke hist for saying, that they .had been told no one but Mr. Foster could fill the situation or town-clerk. You, sir, no doubt thought von were correct when yon contradicted me, and that contradiction made me appeal in, some degree foolish. I beg to appeal_to the reporters. (Cries of " No, no !") I can't permit myself to be called to account, and I will not allow it. (Cries of 1 ‘ Order!" "Chair, chair!") The MAYOR hope you will give me the credit to believe that, while 1 fill this situation, nothing shall prevent me from acting in the discharge of iny duty. I have not "contradicted" anv gentleman here in the usual application of the term con tra'dict. Now, Mr. liathbone, we shall be glad to hear your reply. tidied or not. Mr. Councillor LAW RENCE.—The meaning of the charge was that Mr. Foster was guilty 'of something bordering o'ri perkiry, and then the question naturally arose, How will you believe him in future: He thought they could nut go fairly into the question without giving Mr. Foster a fair chance otrjustifica tiim; but he did not think they were placing Mr. Foster in that situation without his having heard what had been said on the occasion. He thought it necessary that they should call hint in, and that the Mayor should make a fair statement of the case to hint. Mr. Councillor RATHBONE.—Many gentlemen have left the room ; I think it better they should not. • Mr. Conncillor CoGLAN.—He believed that Mr. Foster did not, as a witness, state all the facts necessary to enable the House of Lords to come to a fair-conclusion; . and, being interro gated about it, he said " he was ready t o do so if truss-examined." He believed there was nothing of perjury in that; but he did not state all that was necessary for a conclusion. The MAYOR.—Oa the question of compensation, Mr. Rath bone went on to add, " he will have to be examined on the question of compensation; how are you sure that - he will state the truth." Mr. Councillor RATHBONE (interrupting.)—Without a eross examination, I stated. - The MAYOH.—True, you did. Mr. Councillor Hopi.—Mr. Rathhone made a statemept of facts, and he afterwards made a comment on it, and he thought Mr. Rathbone should withdraw that comment. That comment certainly conveyed to his mind an impression which hordered on . a charge of falsehood. Mr. Councillor ItATHBoNE.—I stated that, " Were we sure we , should have the truth without a cross-examination ?" I made no comment; I asked a question. Our worthy chief magistrate will not intentionally misrepresent what I said, and I beg, gentlemen, that in so grave a matter as this—it is im portant to all that what is said should be exactly remembered. Mr. Councillor SANDARS.—The charge made was a most grave and serious one, and he held that if the question was to be decided by those three questions that none other. should be asked. Mr. Councillor SHIEL said this was a very important ques tion. He had already spokea against removing Mr. Foster 'until they were acquainted with all the circumstances of his office. He thought it necessary to ascertain bow far he had committed himself by the conduct which had been charged against him. If Mr. Foster were capable,•under such circum stances, even of - concealiugs his knowledge without a cross examination, -he would say he (Mr. F.) would be dear to that council at any price. (Hear.) The l ineal- form in which an oath was put—he did not know the form of the oath put iu the 'House of .Lords—rendered it' impossible to conceal anything ' without efettemitting perjury. It was virtually implied that a man would in evidence declare the truth, the tehee truth, ariSl. nothing hitt - the - truth. He, therefore, who waited for a cross- - examination had a very loose conscience. And if it could be proved that Mr. Foster did so, no man in that council would vote for his being continued. (Hear, hear.) 'Fhe MAYOR wished to say one word. Ile most willing apo logised for anything he might have said duriog that debate cal enlated to hurt time feelingsomf Mr. Rathbone; nothing on earth should induce him willingly to insult the feelings of auv one. He understood that Mr. Foster was to be called in, and to be told that, during the discussion, his conduct before the House of Lords, relative to the municipal bill ‘ had not met with the approbation of the council. After ha s had replied to the ques tions to be asked him, that he should be required to withdraw; andehen Mr. Rathbone would- be required to state what he thought on what Mr. Foster had said. He would lather be the organ of the council in this matter, and not take the responsi bility on himself. Mr.. Councillor llarituoteu begged to move that the ques tions be put separately ; which was agreed to. Mr. Councillor Law BENCE conceived a general notion of the charge should be given to Mr. Foster. The Messenger was here sent.to request Mr. Foster's attend ance, who shortly aftecarrived. • The Ma Yeit.—Mr. Foster, in the course of the discussion re spectiug.the office of town-clerk, which has been held this day, anti the .niode in which the council should proceed with respect to that office, it has been stated, with respect to you, that, on thepassage of the reform bill through the House of Lords,you went up to London to confer with persons appointed by his majesty's ministers for the arraneement of certain clauses—two clauses, that in reference to the duck estate and the leasing clause. But that in your examination before the House of Lords you did urge, in opposition to the passing of the bill, that these two adauses were not sufficiently regulated with respect to Liverpool. -I am-desired by the council to put to, you three questions rela tive tothis. .The questions, to be put to you are these. (The Mayor then put the first question.) Mr. Foseee.—lt is quite impossible for me to answer such a question. . With regard to the leasing clause, the alterations were made not at my suggestion, but at the suggestion of a de putatioo, which, to the best of my recollection, consisted of Mr. Ambrose Lace, Mr. Steward, and another gentleman 1 do not remember. With regard to the leasing clause, I myself took little or no part in it. Those gentlemen told me that they had it. Ile did not recollect ever s in u t L , g ur e l s ) c i i n ar g t. 0 : n1 o: 1 : vs bi i t t tho s n h t h o oe u r l g d Aei b nr e t.i eLinaeeneseverally regulated the clause for themselves, and don't re collect that I ever changed a word iu it, or looked over a leaf of alter ed or how it should stan n d aii e ni x de p o r:ssed. He was present one day Appointedafter ltlr . ioycien ministers, said that the suggestions had been attended to, and that he (Mr. Foster) should have a copy .of the clause. That was all he knew about the matter.. , , ' • The M yea then put the second of the above questions (rd spectiug the dock bill) to Mr. Foster. Mr. FesTae.—With respect to what was done in the dock bill, I had nothing whatever to do with that. There was a dis tinct deputation sent from the dock committee. Not having any intimate acquaintance with them I did not see much of them. It did so happen that I was present along with them on one occasion when they met, and nue' of the• members of the corporation, (Mr. Horsfall,) a member of the present council, was also present. But to the best of my recollection I was a mere - spectator; I went with them from mere curiosity more than anything else. I had no connection with the deputation in the world. I can have no hesitation in stating, this. If you refer to - the petition-of the'comtuun .council mm the working of the municipal bill as it was then framed, it is distinctly set in that petition what I was to support, which I did to the best of my judgment in the examination, with a copy of which I shall be glad to furnish you. I ant quite unprepared for the question • I cannot detail exactly th e circumstances that oc curred. 'The deputation consisted of Mr. Myers, Mr. Sanders, Mr. Horsfall, and one or two others. They happened to come to the hotel where I was stayilig, and although I was present at one of their meetings it was understood that on the part of the corporation I had nothing to do with them. • The Mayon then put the third question. - Mr. FosTan.—i n ould much rather Mr. Mayor refer you at once to the examination which I shall have , much pleasure to bring into the room. It is reported verbatim. I was asked a general question as to the value of the dock estate, but I don't recollect—s 0 fer as my memory at the present motnent enables me to speak—l don't think I did urge that clause as an objec tion. What I said on the subject was the echo ofahe pet '`in , of the corporation. In the report of the common counci will find the petition of the colonel;, as set out verb-dim. lie think tit:a it must have stated in the preamble of the petitions the House of Lords that an arrangement haelsbeen made had much rather you would allow me to fetch the evidence it self. I submit to the council that it is hardly fair that I should be called on at once to answer a question, which I ant as un prepared to answer as if y ou had asked me the age of my grand mother. Mr. Foster then withdrew to his office for a copy of the evidence. • Mr. Councillor ItarsteoNE.—My statement was, Mr. Mayor, that these two matters had been purposely arrranged; and that the dock estate and leasing clause were objections urged against the passing of the bill in Mr. Foster's evidence. Would you ask that question of Mr. Foster on his return. Mr. Foster now returned. The Mavoe.—l ant requested to ask you whether you know whether these arrangements were made before you went into the House of Lords to give your evidence. Mr. Fuszen.—What arrangements ? The Maeoit.—The arrangements you understood to have taken place. Mr. FosTEn.—l can't remember. I had the general belief that the leasing clause was put right beforew ih I went it to the House of Lords. I woul d ask any g eman os possible I should. The Mavon.—ln answer to the third question, you stated that the report of your evidence would be an answer. Would .you read. that report. Mr. Foster then read the report of. his evidence before the House of Lords from the printed copy. Mr. Foster then retired. The Mevott.—Now you have heard me put these questions and the reply. Is there any gentleman who wishes to suggest any questions as to cross-examination. Mr. Councillor RATHBONE.—On my own part I am perfectly satisfied. The examination must convince this portion of the council that I have not made an allegation that is not perfectly borne out from that examination. Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE entirely differed with Mr. Rath bone in that opinion. The Me 'ism—We now come to Mr. Aikin's amendment. [Several gentlemen bete left the room; when the Mayor said as a general rule let it be understood that any person wishing to leave the room addresses the Mayor before leaving the room.] The amendment and afterwards the motion were put to the meeting. and the votes taken seriatim. Ott calling over Mr. Woollright's name he declined voting; he could not consci entiously give a vote. - The Matfett said it was imperative he should vote one way or other. Mr. Woollright still declined to vote. After a short pause the Mayor said, I have put you down for the amendment. Mr. Councillor WOOLLRIGHT.—I have ot given a vote. The MaYee.—lf any gentleman should n feel himself in such a position that he could not conscientiously vote it would be better that he should request permission of the chairman to retire. Mr. Councillor WOOLLRIGHF.—With your penuissiuu, Mr. Mayor, I will leave .the room. 'I he Mae OR.—Certainly. Mr. Councillor WoOLLRIGHT.—I am to understand-that my vote is not re corded, sir, .The Mavoit.-1t is not. '[lie Mayor laid this down s the future rule. The de cision was then proceeded wit h, wh there appeared for the amend ment, " That a committee o inquiry be appointed, and Mr. F os ter meantime remain town-clerk," 30 votes; against it, 31. For the original mo tion, " That Mr. Radcliffe be appointed towl3-clerk,".3 2 ; a gainst it, 30. It appeared t hat one or tee gentlemen voted for the amendment and for the motion. The Mayor then declared the motion carried. The following is a list"of the division: — Foe the dionissal of Ith'. Foster.-0. Heyworth, C. Logan, It. Alison, W. Stuart, (leo. Holt, Edward Cropper, John Holmes, Thomas Holt, H. Bright, William Lassell, Win. Rushton, C. Rawdon, Thomas Buller), H. Holmes, NV. It. Preston, George Robinson, L. Heyworth, 'l'. Blackburn, J. D. 'l'hornely, S. 1-lope, E. llarvey , Thomas Bolton, It. Roskell, Rath bone, E. Smith, Thomas Cuglan, C. Birch, R. M‘GeecoreC.H . NV. Thornhill, W. M Duncan. —W. W. Currie, J. Walmsley, Hugh R. Shell, John Cropper. James Lawrence, James Cellolr, J. S. 3no Against o n r e n s t , N V the. B . . v.l Sharpies,o t iu Barclay, W. Blain, Thomas Smith, R. Beni], Leigh, .1. Barton, James Moon, 11. Lawrence, oa, Joseph Hornby, W. P. Freme, E. Evans, W. Maxwell, Thos. Booth, James Carson, James Aiken, T. Brocklebank, T. Lea• thom, C. Tayieure, W. Earle, Joseph Sanders, F. Jordan. APPOINTMENT OF MAGISTRATE.S. A note was read from the late Mayor, enclosing an extract of a letter received in October from tae office of th that e Secretary of State for the Home Depaitment, d s tating any m mendation the new council might make of persons suitable to be justices of the peace w ould have its due weight with govern ment. The MAYort...—That is for your consideration. Qt;ARTERLY MEETINGS. The quarterly meetings of the co eduncil, on the the rs prepo sedees ition of Mr. Councillor L a wrence, were fix for fit Wednesday iu February, May,' and August next, respectively, at eleven o'clock in the forenoon. Mr. Councillor BoureN. —lf time day should fall on Sunday, air. Councillor RATHBON E.—Mr. Mayor, in replying, I mus beg your indulgence. I have not beets use bl d to this do m myselt ode, ot debate. lam quite a ware that I shall, proba, dot y and the subject justice; but I shall endeavour to do my duty fearlessly, fairly, and conscientiously. In c oming into cal this counc il-room, 1 feel lam not to indulge in any politi hos tility. In • moving for Mr. Foster not being re-appointed, I declare on my honour that it is from no personal hostility to Mr. Foster. In moving for the appointment of Mr.. Radcliffe, I deClare on my honour it is from no feeling of favour to him. I sin not influenced by any thing like party feeling here, but by what will be of, the greatest advantage to the town. Several gentlemen have used the words " conscientious vote:" I wiil give my conscientious. vote, and I will give a conscientious expression to my feelings, and let the public decide between us, and judge by my conduct whether I am acting fearlessly, fairly, and without. any party bias. A good deal has been said about compensation. - I think that question has been in a great mea sure dismissed. It seems to me a humbug to talk of compensa tion: it is completely begging the question. It is asked can any harm arise from the present absence of a legal adviser? Yes. In the arrangements we have to make great harm will arise, if we have not some leg al adviser in making such arrag,e ments—arrangements which few gentlemen in this room under stand. Ido not think that Mr. Foster, the former servant of the corforaticin, is likely to aid us in Making what arrangements it may be necessary to snake. (Cries of " Hear , hear."-) . Th en , as to compensation, I will esk bow we can ascertain that the compensation is what the la w p laces in his d hands. All the documents on which this compensation woul be founded m ust go through the town-clerk's hands, an d we sh a ll h ave t o go to our legal adviser to check his own accounts. Gentlemen, se r o it is a most important question for the council to take into con sideration. n. h l r. Cropper as into the c ffers of time, his fees mgo has stated som ethin g about the fees. Under the arrangement that the towe.clerkshould be appointed for i on l y t a t e mpo r ary 'the town-council, and he mar be Hia. permanent salary. There is another point which Ib e sorry Mr. r ostet's injudi cious friends have rendered 'necessaryto name. I had, care frilly abstained from any redectionS on r. Fost , but er can not, in my duty to the public, say that lie is a fit inan'f l r the situation. I will only niention one fact its any : mind con clusive. In the opposition to the inunicipalrefoi in bill, he went into the House of Lords to oppose the bill - and wished for a separate bill for this town, because the leaing,clanses and the dock estate bill made it so complicated a, thing . for Liverpool. He had at tha t moment returned from a drPotation, where it had been agreed that the dock estate should .forin .a separate bill, and, after he had an assurance on the part of gentle men connected with the government that the leasing clause should be settled, expressed his satisfaction at the manner in which that settlement was made. Yet on oath he de clared that his opposition to that bill was because it would not apply to Liverpool without difficulty, owing to the leasing clauses and dock estate bill. When he was asked did you not know to the contrary? his answer was, "I would have told the truth if I had been examined." I make no comment. Mr. Mayor has said he will be examined on oath with regard to the compensation; but are you sure of the truth on that exa mination, unless you cross - ex amine him. (A general move ment of surprise-) This, in my mind, is sufficient. I think it most important that we should have the aid of Mr. Radclitfe's talents for two or three weeks to complete our arrangements; if, after that, you have no wish to continue him, you have it in your power to choose any other man. With these remarks I conclude my reply. I feel that, as an honest .man, I cannot have with my own consent such an officer as town-clerk. And, therefore, I must, for my own vindication, and for the vindica tion of those who have said that Mr. Foster is unfit for town clerk, adhere to my motion. (General expressions of surprise.) The Mavo a.—With that impartiality which animates us, can we proceed to the vote after so grave a charge heard against su ch an individual , witho ut g ivin g , him the o pp ortunit y of re buttingit. And, gentlemen, that I may have no Partiality, I ask the gentlmen here to remember the expressions made use of "can you get at the truth?" on this question touching Mr. Foster. I ask if any individual would think he had been fairly and .honestly dealt with to have sentence andjudgement passed on him in his absence,•• without .his haying the opportunity of hearing it. (Cries of "Hear.") Mr. Councillor RAT HBONE.—As that is the case, as it was not told to mSelfl Moat confront him with the party who asked him the qu y estion. have stated facts, those facts I believe, and I know to be true. The MAYOR.—It is for the council to declare what they will do. I, in the impartiality with which i declare lam influenced, do not'think we can go to a division without taking the senti mentanf.the council on the charge. Mr.Councillor Mr. Rathbone give his authority ? The MAYOR. —Mr. Rathbone can act as he chooses. But I submit we should hear Mr.' Foster in explanation. Alderman Ev ANS.—If he had acted before the House of Lords is a ssitness on one side of the question, and was not asked on that point, it does not follow that he was not speaking the truth. Mr, Councillor HOPE.---1 am not sure that we have all rightly Unde'rstood what Mr. Rathbone stated. Councillor S AN DERS.—If Mr. Fester was called on oath that to give certain testimony , and he only ga ve part of it, I think that a serious charge. And if M r.' Rathbone be not pre pared to support that isiArge himself—if he says it is mily hear say evidence, it is but at act of justice in this council to , call Mr. Foster in, and hear what he has to say with respect to it. Mr. COuncillor RATHBONE.--it does not depend on the evi dence of any man, it was a fact that the leasing clause and the duck bill were arranged before the town-clerk went to give his evidence' before the House of Lords. It did not depend on - his assertion, that the dock bill was thrown over at the tune that Mr Foster went. to the House of Lords, and gave out as a reason that the unicipahn hill could uot pass with regard to Liverpool, be cause the leasing clause and dock act rendered it inapplicable to Liverpool. I will not withdraw the charge, I will stand or fall by it. Gentlemen, they are facts iu the knowledge of many gentlemen in this council. Mr..Councillor SANDERS. —I beg to move that Mr. Foster be called in. Mr. Councillor BOLTON.—AIIow me to ask, if Mr. Foster 'were asked one question, other questions might arise, they would go on fur 24 hours, and be .no nearer the subject. He submitted that if Mr. Foster were called in they must have . printed evidence before them of the proceedings of time House of Lords. He merely submitted that, on the ground of expe diency, how far they could go into the evidence of Mr. Foster. marks of Mr. Rathbo m ne, and that they d should give their-votes divested from any reference to that particular question. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Councillor Hoes FA LL:—lt was a very grave charge, and he saw a very great difficulty in calling in Mr. Foster to undergo such an examination. He thought the whole of the examina tion should pass through the chairman, and that no gentleman should Le allowed to ask a question. Mr. Councillor RATUBONE said he had no objection to Mr. Foster being called in. There were three questions which occurred to him to be asked to which the examination might he confined, which were•then dictated by Mr. Ratnbone, and taken down in writing by the mayor - t —l. Was the leasing clause ar ranged to your satisfaction before you gave your evidence in the House of Lords ?-2. Was the arrangement respecting the dock bill made to your satisfaction before you gave your evidence in the House of Lords ? 3. Did you not upon oath, in your evi dence in the House of Lords, make these two questionS your ground of objection to the passing of the bill respecting Liver pool ?—The best way would be to refer to the evidence previous , a 0..... was there not a provision in the act relating to that? (Mr. silered the present arrangements as merely temporary. On Bolton sat down amidst laughter and cries of " Wednesdays each side of the double row of The %met . part of the table BOROUGH S ESSIONS. might then be left clear fur the councillors to advance to and Mr. RATHBONE moved the appointment of a committee for write, white the bottom might be appropriated to the a.cconiume the purpose of making arrangements for holding the borough' dation of the reporters. sessions, as he understood there was some difficulty in the way. .. . Mr. Couucidur RATH no NE suggested that etich member should Mr. H. LAWREMcE said that no jury had been summoned by have his desk and seat allotted liiin in a circle round the mayore - to the late bailiffs. The sessions could not, therefore, be held in . . - be which absentees would be easily diecovered. the usual way, and it. was proposed to send the prisouers to be y , tried at the Kirkdale Sessions. He doubted if any borough The motion of Mr. Lawrence, that all motions lie reduced to sessions could henceforth be held without an application to the writing, with the amendment, ° recommend that all motions" King in council. .• and " amendments," as well as motions, was then carried. The MAYOR said he believed the reason why the usual Pre- The MAYOR said, before they proceeded to any further buei- iterations for holding the borough sessions had not been made ness, he should beg them to allow him a few words as a neittee was, that it was questioned whether it would be advisable to of favour to himself, to enable him better to facilitate his duties. have any borough sessions at all, by which the borough would He told them when be was elected that be shook!' require all be rendered liable to the maintenance of prisoners in the Bo e their indulgence, and he' was sorry to tind that he had incurred rough Gaol. That was a point which would remain for the 'the displeasure of a meMber of the council, his good friend Mr. consideration of the council. Egerton Smith. He did not wish to lead the council into tax- The council then adjourned at a little after four O'cleck, - tra,neoes Matters, but Mr. Smith was the last person in the wort/ having sat upwards of four hours, until next day at eleven. whom lie would speak to in terms likely to offend. He did not think it would be desirable to fend arid ptoie; but he believed SATURDAY. he had called Mr. Smith to order once or twice id the proceed- ' ! REPORTF.P.S. inos of the day before, and lie begged leave to assure Mr. Smith Previous to the commencement of bu siness, the AVO said • that in . • doing so nothing could be further from his intention than —Gentlemen reporters, it has been determined t hat for the to hurt his feelings • He now offered him the most ample future no reporters shall enter the room until it is intimated apology. He hoped they would put the most favourable con that the meeting has resolved itself into a council. struction upon his actions, and attribute anything which might PRELIMINARY PROCEEDINGS. offend to that natural auxiety there was, in the opening pro- The MAYOR then said—before the reporters were admitted, eeedi (rt to . do all that was right, rather than any unkind Mr. Radcliffe had made the necessary declaration previous to ne', feeling on his part. taking his office as town-clerk. He had directed him to eursue MaCouo l cillor Smell was extremely anxious not to trespass the course adopted in the old council, namely, that the prettied unnecessan y upon the public time, nor would he take any ings of each meeting should commence by reading over the liberties in erties that room which were not warranted by custom or proceedings of the previous one. Minutes of the proceedings preprtety. lie would briefly recapitulate—("No, no!") He • te. of the last meeting were then read over. , begged their pardon, but he was called upon and would s p eak; The T OWN - CLER K then said :—Mr. Mayor and gentletn eri, 1 Be was making tome ' remarksup un the subject of Me. Foster, on • ant perfectly aware, on the communication of my friends, that which it had been said that there was a general prevailing opinion • ' the appointment you have done me t he honour to make is one that i t was impossible to tied' a person 'adequate to fill the office' '•-•. that is to be understood , and p ro p erl y so, by yourselves and then occu pi e d by Mr. Foster. Upon thii he was going to make myself, as being merely temporary : as such I receive it. On an observation, when he was, as he thought, improperly called- ..: •your part' then, gentlemen, there can be uo delicacy in acting to order by the - Mayor. He was convinced that he was correct,- d according to 'your discretion; on my part. there can be ,nu dis- and upon referring to the notes of a reporter . o near iiiiu lie fi u L I I grace • to myself if the app ointment s hould not be continued. that Messrs. Sandars and Jordan ad both u sed ‘ thelangUatgii • --' (Applause.) . The Town-clerk then read the appointment of which the mayor had denied to have been expressed when the seuarterly meetings as fixed. on at the previous meeting of checking hi s m. the council. • Me' Councillor SitNDARS.—May I ask what sentiments I The M AYOR.—The business to be proce eded in now will be expre ssed . ? the appointment ofttie remaining officers of the ceirporation, Mr. Councillor SMITtr.---/ will tell you. The mayor then, I the secretary, the treasurer; and the subordinate officers. The thought, rather particularly said, "We have nothing to do with' first office to consider of importance was the office ,of treasurer, the opinions of people oul of doors, and I felt myself rather in a'. and it was competent for any gentleman to nominate a person humbled situation from being twice called to order." With for that office. He might say that, so far as his own knowledge that explanation he sat down; he was sure lie should not intrude of the present treasurer went , a more correct and respectable himself much on that council. He should never rise but on a individual did not exist, a man who had more completely subject of importance. He was perfectly satisfied with the ex-. • • kept himself aloof from politics of ever y kind, or a man whose p lanation of the ma y or, but felt sorry that t he had made use of ,general character was so much respected. He could only say the word opot u yy this, as his own feeling, that , u nless t h ere were ver y strong rea• The MAY oir was . not aware in calling Mr. Smith to order that . sons to the contrary, he thought it would be au act Scarcely such remarks had been used. jtietiliabletto dismiss a servant:so faithful from his office. He council. COMMITTEES. thought it right to bear that testimony to his general character Mr. Councillor BoreroN coneelYed the business they were and qualification. • • now upon was the appointment of comm ittees as a general totes Mr. 'Councillor HOPE thought they were o p en to adopt the lion. It perhaps would assist them in coming to a conclusion course which they had adopted the day'befote , both with re g ard if the Mayor w o uld inform them of the mode in which commit to the town-clerk's office and every other office. Prior to their tee.s hail been appoitited. not that they should adhere to these contirmine or annulling . the appointment of their presen t modes, but they would be guides to them as to how many coin treasurer,' he would suggest that they shou ld a pp oint different 'Place' s might lie requisite fur the objects they had in view. committees to inquire into the nature and duties of the various , of - Beers, and be recommended such proceeding. 'He (Ms. H.) Ile MAYoR.h-As Mr. Bolton had called on him to state what .. was anxious to have answered the inquiry, whether it were ne- course should be pursued in reepect of committees, the must tin ceesary that they should proceed to the re-appointment of Mr. portant committee they hail formerly had was, the finance coin- Foeter, or another individual as treasurer, instanter, or, as in utittee; it tonsisted of time Mayor, ex officio, and all the gentle. , the case of the town-clerk, that they were at liberty to - eprietint a tnen who had passed the chair, and also were added three or four individuals Who had not passed the chair. The number al-. committee to inquire into the nature and duties of the office? If they had such liberty, he suggested the propriety of making together was about fifteen; they met weekly. The proceedings of the finance conamittee were regularly entered in a book, and no appointment at all that morning, or cancelling any appoint ment till the report of such committee had been received. annulled or confirmed at the monthly meetings of the council. The Tow N-cmink.—By the municipal act it is required that There was another important committee which was the improve two officers, the mayor and town-clerk, shall be elected the meta coMmittee, which existed for some time, and it generally first general meeting of the council, iii each year. !'here was consisted of ten or eleven members chosen out of the council no such provision with regard to the other affairs. It remaineff generally. The n ext was the freemen's committee, for the paesing rd'young fteemen, which, of w course, there as now no therefore on the pleasure of that council. Mr. Councillor Boterort quite condurred in the views Mr. necessity for. These, with the town dues committee, were all Hope had. taken, and seconded the proposition for an inquiry he could call to mind. The finance was the principal and the into the duties of the various officers and their emoluments, with most important. He should suggest more frequent meetings a view of making all the reduction which could be made on the than the quarterly meetings of the present commit, for the pur salaries. pose of preventing the accumulation of businesS, as it had been Mr. Councillor RATHBoNE thought it would greatly relieve found, in the former council, when a months intervened without the council if the mayor should consider himself as moderator. a meeting', the accumulation of business had been Si) . great as• to It was a very gratifying thing for hint to bear testimony to the require the principal Part of a day td get through it. It was, good conduct of old servants, and far be it from him to iustuuate therefore, highly expedient, if the law would permit, that two anything against the treasurer- But he did think if the mayor committees and the finance committee should meet weekly, or was to be moderator, that he should not offer such an opinion as as o m en at requisite, and that they . simuld have intermediate he had done with retard to the reappointinent of the treasurer. meetings to adopt or cancel their decisioueas they might please ; lie (Mr. Itathbon4 begged pardon for offering this remark. then at their qtiarterly meetings they should out have their en up unnecessarily. The MAYOR was not aware that in what lie had stated he had time taken TOWN-CIA:UK —The act gave the M a y or (by the 60th done anything more than strictly d is char g e the duties of his The office : and he thought he had not gone beyond it in merely section) the power of calling a meeting of the council whenever putting the council—a great proportion of whom were entire he thought proper. I n the quarterly meeting there was no ne e strangers to the treasurer—in possession of all the .information cessity for giving notice of the object of the meeting ;at a spe in his power as to'his correctness. More than that he (lid not chit meeting there was that necessity. intend to say, and it was his duty to do it. He should certainly The MAYOR would ask the town-clerk whether the notice to endeavour to be moderator. He was quite aware that nothing be given of a special meeting Must be a general notice, or wag h stringent or astringent to detail its object. was more material than that a chairman should abstain front The ToWN-cltenit.—There will he no necessity for any pare giving an opinion. ''lie did not think he had done snore than his titular notice, in calling a committee together. duty in puttiugAte councilin possession of inftoination on which they might wisfrto act, which accident• had given him the op- A Councillor.—Can a committee a d j ourn. portunity of knowing. The TOWN-ci.Eß.K.—There can lie no doubt of that . Mr. Counciilor lit:mown! perfectly concurred in what had • wATcH COmsIIITEE: fallen from the mayor, he was sure the mayor must be greatly The Mayor stated that, in order to provide for the interval relieved, after whal had fallen from Mr. Rat hbone, by the cir- which might elapse between their entrance into office and the curnstance of a committee being appointed to inquire into all appointment of it watch committee; and, subsequently, of a con those officers, tie carry ing of which motion he very much wished stabulary force, the previous council, upon going out of office, to advocate. had thought right to direct the stun of 1.:1000 '4 to be placed in the The MA Yoß.—One word before he proceeded further. With- bank, for the purpose of paying the ,vages oh' time present police. out retracting one word that he had said, he considered himself Mr. Councillor Jog` Holmes wished to know whether the while sitting there as mayor, fully entitled. and that it was hi s treasurer could now pay meneys• duty, to express his opinion as a councillor on all occasions, The Ohteo.— p ay the accounts or the late corporation although he might be mayor. were closed they were balanced as far as fat } in. the treasurer's Mr. Councillor HOPE wishedbut to make one inquiry, whether Power- But he thought it tight to receive all moneys and t o the mayor had not a second vote as mayor in their proceedings ? pay all sums due•on the respective bonds of parties. Further' The Towts-ceettit.—The words of the act are, " a second or than that he does not pay anything, Ca Mr. vote." The "rower-cLERK.—Iti the 59th section it is enacted that Mr.'Couneillor RAoußohE acknowledged he did net under- " the treasurer of an borough shall pay ne money on account stand very well how any gentleman could fill the office of mayor of the Mayor, aldermen, or burgesses of a borough, save only and councillor. .He should like to know if he had a vote as in such case as is provided by this act, or upon the ordel• in mayor and a vote as councillor ? writing of the council, signed by three or more members of the. The TowN-ceeetx.—There could he no dotibt on that point; coutreittand count•ersigned by the town-clerk of such borougle," the words of the act were not a casting vote merely, but "aecond - Mr. Councillor HENRY HoI.MLS wished to know, whetherthe casting vete." (Hear.) act included the lighting as well as the w a t chin g of the town. or The MAyoß.—ls it the pleasure of the council that in the No answer was given. motion of Mr. Hope, seconded by Mr. Bolton for a committee Mr. Councillor JoHN HOLAtEs thou g ht it im p ortant that a finance committee should be appointed. of inquiry, the old officers of the corporation should in the mean Mr. Councillor lloee. took the liberty of moving 'that two time be continued ? mmittees be now a The Teiontit o witic suggested that in that ease it would he coppointed. better to say nothing about the o ld officers, but p roceed to time The Dieing.—l beg to recommend that you should re duce election of the committee, and according to time act the officers your Councillor motion to wrHoliiting. r. E.—Oh, I beg pardon.--(Laughter.) would remain. M After some discussion the motion o f Mr. Ho p e, seconded by Time Tow e-hekititt being requested, read over a list of the Mr. B 41ton, was read from the chair as follows : corporate officers. "That a committee be forthwith appointed to examine into Mr. Councillor Hoes then put in this motion—" That a corn the duties and emoluments of ail the paid officers of time corp. mittee be appOinted e consistitig of the followiOg gentlemen, ration, and to make a full report thereon to this council as soon * * * * for the purpose of electing the paid officers, milli e." the exception of the recor der an d town • cleilt. as possibl ouncillor Hopa.—As he understood , that com mittee had Mr. Councillor MA K WELL hoped the mayor was not included M r. C full power to examine and call for p a p ers ? in the enquiries of the committee. ' Mr. Councillor BoieroN.h-And that the persons forming that Mr. Councillor BOLTON seconded the motion and begged committee had full power to ask any questions that might be to have a counnitte appointed " fat the purptieeofeuquiring into deemed expedient?. every branch of expenditure." Mr. Conucillor RA wnoN. 7 -Should the committee so appoint- Mr. Councillor R A THIMN E.—l beg partlon•L—the mayor is net ed claim the assistance of ayrofessional man i . a paid officer. The MAYoR.—IIe should put that confidence in that corn- Mr. Councillor BLACKBURNE thought it would be a Vet y in; mittee so appointed, that they should obtain ail the information vidious thing for any gentieman to undertake the muffle of in they required on the question. He should leave it to their dis- quirt' into the ex peddiaire. He doubted very much whether creiion. NOTICES OF MOTIONS. '. • the whole labour could be accomplished by one c ommittee. Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE said, so fully did he concur with He thought it would be well now to have a committee appointed the motion, that he would not in the least oppose it. There to consider the best plan olappointing conimittees. Ile thought were tWo things which he wished to b r ing before time notice several comm ittees mi g ht be a pp ointed to advantage. He of the council. - That, as on all motions which ar e made, except begged to suggest that a couitnitte e foe that p ur p ose be up on quarter days, notices must he giv en three clear days before pointed. hand, he would suggest, that ev er y g entleman having a motion Mr. Councillor Bolero* concei ved that the ob j ect of the to make at tht quarterly meetings should be requi red to fur- present committee was rather to revise tue put than to make nisi' a copy of . in writing, by which means the motion would any provision for the fitture—to eutotire as to the sale% ice and be better understood than when collected from a desultory con- the various other business to beh.arried on be the carious other versation. The second point was on the formation of commit- business to be carried on by the various jfficers for time con tees—that some general mode of forming committees should be eideration of the council afterwards. 'He thought it would not adopted by die council. He would suggest that some general at all interfere with the suggeetion made by Mr. Blackburn. mode of electing committees should be first fixed on before The MAYOR would now ask whether it was their pleasure td electing any gentleman a member of a committee. It might adopt the TOWN reso CLERKlution then read Mr. Hope's motion, which wag save them hereafter a great deal of trouble , and save also the The ~ feelings of the individual Members of the council. passed. Mr. Councillor HOR SFALL in q uired wh e ther the committee Mr. Councillor Hoeu.—lt wont(' now •be necessary that the were to report facts, or to give theiropinions. (Cries of Both 1") gentlemen comprising that committee should be appointed; Mr. Councillor Hoots suggested, that the words "with full which he should be glad to leave in the Mayor s hands, or if he powers to report thereon" be inserted in the motion, which was would suggest in what way it should be Male. done accordiagly. The Menet would recommend that there were not too many The MAYOR.—Let it lie understood by the council that if a appointed, fur it was always found that the more members ape motion was seconded and not opposed by env one, silence would painted on a committee the lees work was done, because there be understood as agreeing to that motion. He now asked them was always the excuse —" theme are plenty Without me." if they were all agreed on that motion. Mr. Councillor BoLtoN proposed that the committee should consist o No answer. f seven. The MAYOR. — I consider th i s motion as carried. The next The MAYOR would ask if the vote should be taken by ballot (Cries of " No !—Name, name.) point was the appointment o f a committee. Perhaps Mr. Law- rence would suggest what was to be done. Mr. Councillor I. Citoeeitit suggested that each councillor; Mr. Alderman FREME seconded the proposition of Mr. Law- should write down seven names, and they who had greatest rence, that no notion be made without its being submitted in number t of votes should be elected on the coil:4ll4w. (Cries of writing. " No, no Hearne.) Mr. Counclor BOLTON quite concurred in the same way. Mr. Couneillor tlotot wee then propoeed, but begged to dee At the same t ne, some men may not have been in the habit of cline on the ground of ill health expressing their thoughts thus in the regular order. He thought The MAY on hoped the duties were not of th healtth. a appallinlie g pe nad they should not bind themselv es too strictly by that rule. '['here tore as to be injurious to any getaleuitin 's lim was a technicality in recording resolutions which persons iu Mr. Hope u w ncilloulor d s ßA tan ttleoree thought the nuir ber of seven tote d. business were not very much accustomed to, - Co Mr. Councillor Sanekus.—Surely every gentleman here is small for so impurtant a committee. • competent to draw out a notice of his own motion. 'lime MA Y 0 a.—Supposing that this committee were appoiut. Mr. Councillor LAweereco• — What lie• wished was, that a ed, iu the first inst,thee, to cousist ()teem' ; and if they found motion should be committed to paper. It was m u c h better that that number not sufficient, they should report to the Founcili they should have a gentleman's own motion o n paper than be and a turt her number be elected. °blond to collect the substance from the course of his addrees. Mr. Conucillor flchoe. —Or with power to add to their nurr - For e his part, he was much better able to write his thoughts than her. • (Cries of " No,-no.") .• s p e ak them, and he believed it to be the case trial everybody The f MrollowinOuncig gentllorlemen nere tiled appnintau d, viieh.:— The else. The techn ical terms mi g ht be afterwards inserted by the Nlavor. . C Bolto, r A Melt:t vi i .:_ h e erk. Couhicillor I. Holmes, Mr. Councillor Maxwell, Mr. Councillor town.cl• Mr. Councillor II ATHBONE suggested that it might be merely llorsfall, and Mr. Alderman Evans a recommendation to write down their inetions, and to that, lie Mr. mmCittee — ouncillor COGLAN.—Prior to the appointme n t of that thought, there could be no objectio n. co • Mr. Alderman F Remit did not understand Mr. Lawrence's, The ItlAyott.—l thought the committee was a p pointed: motion, and begged to withdraw his seconding of it, because he Mr. Counciller CueLAN be ieveil not ;he belieted their names considered that it merely meant the motion should be committed were only mead over. His observations werenot made with re to paper before it was passed. fereuce to that particular committee; The MAYOR.—In • point of fact that was always done. The to thought ....e it was deSirahlei in the first place; to have the con but as a general measure. enwn-clerk took down a motion, and it was after wards read trout seta of every gentleman that he would attend to perform the the chair. requisite duties of the c o m mittee. It was also a very important , Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN quite concurred in the observe- Point that the Counnou COULIeII Slitalld approved the gentle lions of Mr. Lawrence, that ge ntlemen should furnish a written men who might be named as tic members of that committee. copy of their propositions; such a course would very much facie It vomit! he a very invidiimus task mu tiet up and say, " I oppose litate.their proceedings. He would make it particularly Pressing or object to any pat Ocular geutitanaim' aho might be named as and stringent that no gentleman should be open to inure a rest , - a member Of the committee. He thought it was desirable that solution without a written statement of .that resolution. Isle th e y s h o uld all constant to the aPPoilltlueut, and in the least .would recommend its being. strictly attended to. As Mr. Freine effensive way to the thgs of the I'lmi - theta of the committee 4 had declined seconding the motion, he begged leave to take that and•the best way lie thought would be, when a gentlemau watt proposed, that the sense of the meetiutt should be take:] by a duty upon himself. Mr. Couucillor HEYWoRTH approved of what had been said show of hnds, and then a ion., i dif such ivisf any diwasfference of ophoon by Mr. Lawrence, but be did not approve of that particular should exist on it; then a ntmber approved of by If the general body. By such mode ; such gentleman would be word astringent which laid been applied to it. . (Laughter.) continued in the appointment by the general sense of the meete it were so, he was persuaded it would be injurious, as malty could express a emotion with more clearness than they could jog, and they could proceed with pleasure in their task. He write it down ; especially when amongst a number of iudivi- therefore submitted that the best course of obtaining the sense guest difficulty in writing down duals. He might find a veryof the meeeting would be to propose the name of each gentle; his sentiments on paper. Fie should, therefore, recommend ma , : serial:.: o , R. should be written down; but -thei, pleased inaenld t u•ftetwards take a show of hands and du ai that, as a general rule, a motion . tc mg him. that the rule should be without this astringent clause. !hie M - ttlhmeen.nasmenesse—The town-clerk says the legal manner is to put Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN. —Stringent not astringent. proper time to tiring this before ' quire? of e the ac committee one by one to the council; and take Mr. Councillor HoPE.—The them as a resolution would be when the bye=laws were under Mr. Councillor RATIUMNE.—WouId they O.IIOW hiM te Jae consideration , He should suggest that for time present this should He believed the Mayor was, ex tilficio, a Member of al l be adopted as the rul e. committees. The MAYOR. —Mter what had been said he thought the The MAYOR.—That has beer. the rule, but it is not bind in g . members of the cou ncil, in all cases where it was possible, i Mr. Councillor Itaxintoria: believed there could be but one. should hand in their motions in writing. He would take the ' opinion in the room on that point. Ile begged leave to 'move liberty, if occasions should arise, if they did not do so to tell that " the mayor be, ex elicit), a inembet of all committees." them that they should do it. ; This motion was seconded and carried. Mr. Councillor EVANS.—You should giie us the facilities of . The names of eac hof the above-Lanted. gentlemen were tiled writing. . 'called over, seriatim, end carriedt as a comniitiee. • The MAybe. —Facilities would be made in future! He coat Mr. Councillor Llueu now moved • t that gtolnan t t e e he abet ELECTION OF MAYOR. The council again met on Friday, at twelve o'clock, pursuant to the act, to appoint a mayor, town-clerk, &c. At the com inencenaent of the proceedings Mr. \V almsley, seconded by Mr. Egerton Smith, moved that a reporter from each journal be admitted. Mr. Rathbone, seconded by Mr. Bolton, moved, as an amendment, that reporters be excluded until after the ap pointment of mayor. The amendment was agreed to. The council then proceeded to the election of mayor. Mr. Jordan, seconded by Mr. Earle, moved the appointment of Mr. William Wallace Currie, which was unanimously ag reed to. Mr. Currie, after taking his seat as mayor, returned thanks for the honour conferred upon him, which he did net expect prior to entering that room. He hoped for the kith' indulgence of the Council, and stated his determination to preserve order and give to every member of the council a fair and impartial ..earin,g. The rown-clerk was then called in, and administered to the newly-elected Mayor the declaration required by the act. The motion for the admission of reporters was then carried rem. con. Unfortunately, however, through some mistake, we were not called in, although in attendance, for some time after- APPOINTMENT OF TOWN-CLERK. Mr. Councillor -RATI4BoNE proposed the appointment of Mr. Richard Radcliffe as town-clerk pro tempore on the condition, (to which, as we understood, Mr. Radcliffe was willing to agree,) that, if he should afterwards be discharged by the council, he should not have any claim for compensation. Mr. Rathbone, we believe, supported the appointment of Mr. Radcliffe, in prefer ence to the late Town-clerk, Mr. Foster, on the ground that the latter could not be expected to work the new system satisfac torily, having been opposed to it all his life. M'r. Councillor HEY woßrii seconded the motion. Mr. Councillor SANDAlts.—'Fbe address of Mr. Rathbone I consider to be a direct impeachment of Mr. Foster, both as a private and professional man. Upon Mr. Fester's character as a gentleman I never before this time heard the slightest impu tation, and of his high professional talents I never yet heard any man express a doubt. 'I have heard some persons say that another man might be found who would do time duties of town clerk as well, but I never yet found-arty one who had the bold ness to assert that- anye man _could_ p erform them better. But, sir, fitness or unfitness is not the question. It is a mere party affair, and Lveriture to express an opinion, that before gentle men indulge in the gratification of party feelings they should look to the consequences. If Mr. Foster be, dismissed we must pay him compensation, and I have heard the amount of that compensation stated as high as £4o,ooo;—a lumping sum of £40,000 in one payment, and not a compensation in the shape Of an annuity, which Sir Frederick Pollock has declared to be against law. What then can we say to our constituents?—you who so rated the old corporation for the expense of that picture, (pointing to a picture,) and I who so rated them for subscribing 100 guineas to a horse race. Sir, the thing cannot be defended for a moment, excepting on party grounds. The amount of this compensation will take away nearly double the amount of the nett available surplus revenue of the corporate estate. What then becomes of the fund for town improvements? What becomes of the fund on which to base the reduction of local taxa tion? Why, sir, everything is sa crificed to p arty. Ido think, sir, that before we dispose of money and places in this way— taking from one man and giving to another,—before we divide and multiply offices for the purpose of satisfying party claims, we should do well to reflect on what may be said to us by our fellow-townsmen;' let us not, therefore, incur the reproach of its being said to us , " You have filled the hungry with good things, and the rich you have sent laden away." Mr. Councillor HotISFALL then rose. He entirely concurred in the observations which had been made by Mr. Sanders. He thought before they went to the vote on this question, that it ihould be fully understood, whether it was a temporary apoint tnent or not; and also as regarded the offices which the town clerk filled. The MAroa said that the duties of town-clerk had been fully defined some years ago, after the death of Mr. Statham. His worship then sent fur the minutes of the council where they were defined. Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE thought they ought not to throw the funds of the corporation away, being its trustees, in the way of Compensation to officers if it could be avoided. He came there to do his duty, without either partiality or prejudice to Mr. Fos ter. Mr. Radcliffe had asserted that he was willing to take this office for a certain time, and not to take any compensation. They ought not to fill up such places hastily. They did not know into how many places this office would be subdivided. He thought under these circumstances there were many sub jects far mature c onsideration, and he also thought they should not do wrong to allow Mr. Foster the saute option as illc, Rad cliffe. He thought there were so many points of importance to attend to, that any stranger taking the _office would be totally at sea • and he thought they should no t be doin g their duty to the public 9 in putting a stranger into the - office. Mr. ALDERMAN EVANS would nut trouble the council very often they might rely on it; but on this occasion lie would wish to address his sentiments to them, in order to exhibit his opi nions, and for no other reason. He wished to know what would be the cost of removing Mi. Foster, of which they knew nothing. He would recommend the appointment of a committee to in quire into all these things; and, in the mean time, that what ever was done should be looked on as merely temporary. (Hear.) Mr. Councillor AlKlN.—Before he seconded the motion he should like to know whether they had the power of adjourning .from day to day?, The Marcia read the 58th section of the act, "that the coun cil of every borough; on the 9th day of November in this pre sent year, shall appoint a fit person, not being a member of the council, to he the town-clerk of such borough." The order of council rendered it imperative that the appointment should take place on the Ist of January, 1835. Mr. Councillor Ai had heard that they had a power of adjourning. If they.h44 suck.. pawer,. he should rather make a rider on his friend's inotiun, that Mr. Foster be appointed, pro rem ore, until a com mittee have investigated i nto the nature of the duties which devolve on him. if they had not such power he would second the amendment. Mr. Alderman EY Arss.—Mine was a suggestion and not an Amendment. The, MA YoR would ask the opinion of Mr. Councillor Law rence, as a barrister; and, whilst h.e was coining to his opinion, he would read the duties and various offices filled by the town clerk, which his worship proceeded to do. Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE then read the first part of the 69th section.—(See act,)—'this expressly recognises the power of adjournment, and ttie re fere any matter to be done, if done by adjournment, is valid. Mr. Councillor Ail:lN.—lf they were quite certain they had the power of a djourning, he shoeld move an adjournment ; if they were not quite certain, he thought they had better hesitate and consider about it. Mr. Councillor BATIIBONB would entreat the council to act' le,gally. The adininistration of justice must be tonatimediaely, cared for. He did not understand' Mr. Lawrence give de cided opinion. If possible let them have the question decided whether Mr. Foster or Mr. Radcliffe be legally appointed. — That the course of justice might not be impeded, let them act • strictly accorng to the letter of the law where so many inte rests we re invo di lved. He w ould beg to ask the opinion of Mr. Leigh., Mr. Councillor LEIGH.—If he had felt himself competent to give an opinion he would not have suffered himself to have been called on ; but he really did not feel himself competent to give a decided construction to the clause. Ile was unwilling to offer an opinion. Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE admitted it to be a case of diffi culty. He would not take on himself to say that there was a power of adjournment. The clause only recognised a general power of adjournment. Re would not venture to say that they could adjourn on that occasion. This was a point on which he could not have much confidence. Mr. Councillor 11 ore had asked the opinion of a barrister of long standing in the town, and he had given this answer, " that he had considerable doubts on the question of adjourninent on the question they were discussing; but his doubts rather leaned to the side of its not being legal." He would merely make another observation : there seerned to be some misunderstanding as to the terms of Mr. Ruthhone's proposition as to Mr. Radcliffe's appointment; it might be cancelled the next day. It was sim- Plv an appointment. The MA rom—lt was stated in an order in council that the appointment of town-clerk was to take place on the same day as the appointment of Mayor. Is was for the council to consider Whether such election was accordingly to take place. He held the appointment of town-clerk on that day as imperative as that of mayor. Mr. Councillor DUNCAN would wish to make an observation before they went to the vote. If they were to make a compen iation to the town-clerk in case of his retirement equal to two thirds of his present emoluinent ; and if they could get a respectable man to take his situation for one-third, as he thought they could, the funds of the corporation would not be given awa.. Mr y . Councillor At KIN now rose for the purpose of seconding the amendment. Considerable doubts being expressed both with regard to the adjournment, and as to how far it might be desirable to separate the various duties of town-cierk At the present moment, in the absence of proper information he Would move that they should rather continue th e p resent town . clerk iu his office till' they became better informed on that sob ' ject. He would take - that opportunity to state that no blame could attach to the original trainers of the bill fur the doubts which had occurred. Many clauses had been inserted uncon nected with the original intention of the bill, and the change of features in those sections had completely changell the features of some of the other clauses of the bill. The fault did not lay in the or i g inal bill, butin the hurried manner in which the amendments were made in it. This caused them to be at a loss how to act in some points, and tie believed this was one of th most difficult points which they were discussing. He did nut ri e se there as an admirer and friend of the town-clerk, but he rose' to do an act of justice to the council andto the town. He did not think in the absence of proper information they would be doing justice to themselves or the town to dismiss him without further inquiry. It might hereafter become a question whether he should be clerk 'or the records, and whether he should not cease to be registrar of th'e mayor's court. But there were many points of his duties which it was evident they were not then prepared to take into onsideration. It would be mu ch safer to continue Mr. Thomas roste r , without pledging themselves whether it be for a year or 11 day, He therefore moved that he be continued for the present. Alderman LEATUOM seconded the amendment. Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE entirely agreed with what Mr. Aikin had said ; he begged to draw attention to the 58th section, which said th a t the appointment of town-clerk was only during pleasure. Mr. Councillor BROCKLEBANK was of opinion that it would be better to continue the town-clerk for the present. Till they were better acquainted with all tbe circumstances of his duties they had better retain him. If they were to dismiss him they would have a very heavy sum of compensation to pay, and he did not know where it was to come from!!! All these things had better be looked into first. Mr. COuNCII.Loa JORDAN begged to ask whether in the ap pointment of town-clerk, his duties could be divided, and also Lis salary. The M A roa.—The only salary the town-clerk receives from the corporation is 100 guineas a year, all the rest is from the •Cmoluments of his office. Mr. CouNctrasse Jo'npata would bag to observe that no man was so competent to discharge the duties of that town and of the • town-clerks office as the late town-clerk.. Mr. COUNCILLOR HoRNBV.—It had been stated that suppos ing the present town-clerk to receive a certain sum, say six thou sand a year, and his compensation was to be two-thirds of that, could they not getarnan for two thousand a year to fill his office. If they g ave a Mon £ 30,0 00 or £lO,OOO compensation , they ac tually took that sum permanently and for ever from the corpo ration, while his einoltunent is from the town, and not from the corporation. To vote away such a sum as £40,000, he thought Would be rashness in the extreme, though he certainly was riot a friend to the system which hull been pursued by the corpora- * -C)N. ' - .t 2 , v