The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-12-09 00:00:00

,ural pi daily in Vill yc monstr Mr. He nd bear t id not s iauati umen I fight whic OOL STAIs h we d hank our Consery I than Our I ;0 be I may I [O, as ad to LUIS 3ve- was 1 , Mr. ' ,lon in ( the corn 'culation, and in its ( 3S by s ) no part gument. IV place r ity with can do now ill endeavou ake, fell SIONOIL H Council in that metros THE ROYAL 1? red. I mittee of VG ch plan bound t. for t rt yesterda t to y to or ,t the co curt. A ye to da Iced a c DEPUTY TOIN Paid Officers' ( Watch Committ those officers The TowN- Mr. G. H f will s but so their r parated TASTER AC terday, N the . iiiirbour the former 1 W.) hoped H in th I must that t new tariff wn Inn, ( c.ntain Scotto, a Nel ntering nd on ti paymee )f Corre how no ,uipubli- t after ery best eilles, wt ult., got the committee was forme( Paid Offi any except but if the V it would be me n. it would be use!, NI VESTI -CLER could not with its preser t instruct the committee to rs of the for s understood . by t HonNur concurred with tt n from ,uucil would be nec t have an veers than oth it them to make the should he made by the ttee appointed by the council, and he thought every tletnan connected with the ation of the Paid Officers' Committee. ILL said the Paid Officers' Committee coul the duties of the Watch Committ( ivileges ,peciallF conferred ?aid Officers' Commit I run to .factior o'clocl restrictior cil to It The on Commi the deo LAWRENC We hay king hi the offic .e paid properly or not was, whether or )uncil that the Paid Officers Committee Mr. JA THORNHILL both said that they wished made by the Paid Officers' Commit- fired that the in- DVEMENT COMMITTEE Committee were read. It was reported that the corn had elected Mr. David Hodgson their chairman. The Th Hall Committee, embodying a report from the architect, of the Courts of I t. Geo IARKET OFFICER Committe ,ici . he perceived in the repo John's Woods two persons connected with St. ,dham, collector of tolls, and John He had heard ewhat I .t those parties had been dealt bly, but he would ask the chairman to I tances before be made any further ob- JAMES LAWRENCE atter was discussed in I and the case appeared one of such ivation that they could not come to any conclusion rs very full committe :ollector, for having taken the goods I of a poor for nonpayment of toll , man had borrowed t coney and She made a tender of it, he refused to give up her propert went to him a second time, but he still refused, and ultimately sent to bridevvell, where she lay from Saturday d her me '3 7 , but Needham 1 refused to I red to :e to ti that ti tion to tuation at he becat he tent pearan r basks 'born he he, no I 1 3kburn proceeded to give Needham's account I 1, and tful4 , that though not en 11 that . ' the pro imld be confirmed, v Is, whict RY HOLM ly character, but intry should be v. that the woma lolated in her person to the committee very disor- but this w on justi and humanity as called for a special ex shment less than dismissal would have I the ca ODGSON, and Mr. COOPER supported of the committee LACE expressed his to con tion now th hey proc scussion by th that a bad been brought into d read being brought before Urook, N Chilton, E A discus isapproval of such matters as the council, unless in very gross Birkett were strongly in lucation Committee being in order. At length Mr. his opposition, and the council proceeded r the repert of the committee on ROPOSED NEW DAILY COURTS laving been read, showing that, on the site of Islington Market, with the ground oc cupied by the contiguous mill, there would be sufficient land for the contemplated purpose. :'endant LAWRENCE said now to come to a decision whethe vould hay d if there were any estimate •ection, t would not be exposed to :1 be best to nd they e the money v id the subject had been before the council d it had body from which it! decided tt neficial le of the pr Id when the formation of the market in Gill the council, one of the arguments used was that it would leave the Islington market free for this pur- xplain • I bon to the distress of t I mulated expenses, he s a bOrough rate se %vitt hould not have thought of rising to-ad- dress the Council. He thought, too, that this was the most convenient time for him to introduce the question. In the first place, he must acknowledge that the " manifesto" of the credit upon the drawn up in the ,st able and comprehensive way; it exposed at one view a system of education to which he, individually, and in his pri vate capacity, could give the fullest, the most honest, and the council divided, when there appeared,—For the most sincere assent. As a Churchman, it was completely Jment,—Messrs. Isaac Holmes, Blackburn, H. Holmes, and everything he could wish for ; but, as a member .of that enby, J. Holmes, Aikin, Priestley, Barclay, Bulley, Council, as a trustee of the public funds, he thought the sys reme' and Holt. Against the amendment, M essrs . Sh an d, ten: was susceptible of some modification, of some re l axa ti on , Shaw, Hodgson, Thornhill, Preston, Copeland, Thompson, with the view of making-the education in the Corporation Edwards, North, Sands, Holme, Rae, Aspinall, Toulmin. Schools more generally available to the Liverpool public than Royden, J. Lawrence, Cooper, Wood, H. Lawrence, Bush- it was at present. With these views he was prepared to sub ell, Procter, Rigby, Lloyd, Kilshaw, P ar k er , B rassey, mit the following resolution, which he would a s k th e C oun - Plumpton, Leigh, G. H. Lawrence, Lace, T ro t man, Pl att, cii, with all humility, to adopt -qrd, Smith, Harbord, Houghton (alderman), Turner, " That it be referred to the committee to consider whe- Nicol, Bramley-Moore, Molyneux, Moon, Evans, ther, after establi s hi ng i n th e Corporatio n S c h oo l s a sys t em Thomas Brancker, and the May or . of religious instruction based on the principles of the Church lendment, 12; against it, 47; majority, 35. of England, and in all respects in strict accordance with her , dings of the committee were confirmed. tenets, such a modification cannot be made in the existing ~.on ensued as to whether the consideration of the rules and regulations as would render the schools more avail ings of the Daily Courts' Committee should follow the able for the classes of the poor professing different religious cts of the Courts of Law and St. George's Hall opinions, by allowing their children the benefit of the secular as arranged at the last council, the two subjects instruction of the schools, the parents giving an assurance to "crated in the paper by an error of the printer, the committee that their religious duties shall not be neg "enry Lawrence, and Mr. Bushell con- lected." 's should proceed as arranged. .- This was the resolution he was now going to off er f or th e 4 M. "rs• approval of the. council : but before he proceeded to com nent upon it he should take the opportunity of touching the string which he had harped upon before, both in that room and elsewhere. He would declare the opinion which he bad all along entertained, that this council was not an educating body ,that it never should havebecome one, and that he regretted exceedingly it had ever become one. There ---- to would assimilate the rre---- not in Of rplus incor t so full as they were pretext to luk VNeile (t he .red: .d a sYs' a d beell. It wp°" st mita g religi , That 'eenthe stem which the ;nnioved of bv It as tney tun now; out pc - h t • acknowledged he rejoiced that tuei tern, they hadnot, on the other bye od which he bad expec to that, attacl _ rrn conservatives to yr dons to a large extent from the Church uth end of the town, at, ling the poor of the coThntrY ady at all. He would now go "rita• Bret that so many of these pooriLetve, )tiger a ,--. ', s o urns. for coucireo s of some P4r.th y i l i A--..,r that L":: —he hoc Roman Catholic n spite of the prophe, able to form a judgment , er se• ' 4 had proved quite the re lic ,/ but • ibel the projec' town These repeated and accu- id, would drive theM to the imposi and before he would have that he would see all the improvements of the town stopped. He was st been of opinion that the proposition to build new daily courts ilendid should be met with a decided negative. AtIKIN forebore to press abject, leavir t for the present with the ie total G. and The DEP ' am_ it Education ( WN-CI lovember Mr. Edmund Molyneux was I Tian, and -Mr. David Hodgson deputy 'man of t ber of children upon I 25th of October to the 28th of Novembi ing return was books from the I Church of Englanc Protestant Dissent( which, a By the e not open wi r fellow Ch removed f hey may r with its use al Lttee _ prepare the co 101, to E lion now pnrsued Is they c )rding to the d which, if the r 1 to chari that tt Comm ;ent reso urch on hildren on unl 'ejudice, by ti prejudl( )reposition tom latter would 1 ruction a ehicle of tent with t in where CI nder n ngs and recommendations of tht 3e confirmed. , nded the mot Jur. IioDGS Mr. HORN question he, thought it his di with regard to the order of proceedir„ appeared to him that the course purse ppointed committees for ing into t to - make one obs, pu!pos , Itianity ucatior in that council. It principles out; but the Education Committee, tion which they had thought proper to place upo . , . . . . appeared to him to have trenched upon the dut privilege of the council. (" Hear, hear," from t atives.) and cries of " No ' special duty of t from the co tinerais, It was the cbuncil to i to take care that it ry individual member of ih gu,,ard the prerogative not abolis So far as his experienc any section of its member went, it was unprecedented for the Education Committee e upon themselves, as they had in this instance, to shoiild be conducted. !dare upon what principles the sc-h( e simple insertion of the words " subject to the appro of the council," by no means justified the committee ng the step which they had thus taken. Mr. Alderman EARLE quite agreed with his friend Mr. Hornby, that this proceeding was irregular, but he was not surprised at it, as, during the last year, he had seen a great many irregularities on the part of the Education Committee. He was glad to find that there was on his side the question a man who could speak so forcibly and so boldly as Mr. Hornby. He did not know who had concocted this precious manifesto; but from the repetition in it of the words "di luted" and " dispensed," and so on, he should think that ome pious druggist must have hat Mr. nODGSON said, that if Mr. Hornby wa Id Mr. Hornhy had spot Mr. HODGSON said he was, He believed that the cour.- bk . Tvatior aking to order toa pursued by t Lnd thoroughly in orde ducation Co ed no new principle whatever ;they merely told the principles upon which they had been appointed, how those principles were in operation, how they were acting, and how it was of the utmost importance that they should be main gined ; and they merely offered their reasons in support of - The • distinctimb therefore, which had been -v.51 a futile distinction, having no that vie The MAYOR asked Mr. fIORNBY replied in the neg had any mo- n order that this proceeding on t on Committee might not be drawn int( ative. Be called attention subject mere part of the Educ G. H. LAWRENCE did not go the full lengt ,ion Committee, and he had prepared a mod mendment. d that t YDS bel Education Corn mi 'own-c►e WN -CIA as it was c remarka the council that ,t a manifesto to fr Clerk, if he were rt to them report v T EducatioO Committe the resolution of. the Cou armed," could only be g :s of the Committe that the hick the Education Committ Irnit just such error .t the pr pported by pre The MAYOR : Then v r as applying to the Conn :d of the principles upon rence t Where were panic. the Bury St Edmond's case, but there was no analo That case was, as to the application of property left centuries ago for the purpose of endowing schools ; but there was no such obligation on the part of the corporation of Liverpool. He had taken great pains to make inquiries upon that point, and from the best information he had been able to get, he bad come to the conclusion that the corporation had no pro perty of that kind. Mr. Okill, from whom he derived his information, than whom no man was more competent to afford it, assured him that the corporation had no such pro perty. To be sure he understood that there was a grant of £5 a year made a long time ago, so far back as Queen Eliza- between th ;or of t had for a considerabli but upon the death of Mr. Baynes, the last ell with him, and if it was hape of the Blue Coat revived at all, it as revived in t! er of doing what whatever except They felt the II cessity of providing for the religions instruction of the poor of the town. As they had built churches, so also they erected schools for the edification and instruction of the children of the poor; and they established those schools, as they had every right to do, in the religion of the Church of England, which they themselves professed, and which the majority of the people professed. The course of the present council, however, could hardly be the same as their course, for they were " tied and bound by the chain" of re form ; and though it might be very well for them to say they did riot go into that room as a political body (and there were so ; as their duty, i.ct in its fullest and fairest and at did the Municipal Reform Act ncome, that most precarious of all resource ncome failed. thf the poor tory ex- foundation as th which he would argument from ust be clos ICII 'night r draw an -ted he legislature had in sold, declaring in so maw system as heir sub: man Cathol Iftl ut the Would the co Novi wt :er mature deli of the Council con- fit were an error. His or ular course lent in former comrnitte. LEIGH inquired whether Mr. Blacid :dye secular . BLA CICBT_TE id, Mr. G. I is an amendment upon the pr( ular branch? fr. G. I AWRENCE reDl d to him to has, )n was, that nd, cert .ear, hear.) cl with the discus: ntrn WI Idrew the Corporation Schools Lawrence's n dings Idren should have absented that they did absent tt indifference that they who, no doubt, were wel would finally corn Nem. not crowded except in the infant's school, wher were sent to be out of harm's way. Now, much . as the COu; cil might deplore the fact, there could not be a doubt ur be the subject. The question then was, could an ythiog, o , done without encouraging popery on the one hand, ° g i s t dangering the Church of England upon the other ? migh t was the real question. He thought something mig m " done; and if the schools were to be carried on . o • thought they ought to make some little attempt to complish that object. Were the scho o l s under his d, i _ r ,, e n j§ tion he would make them mo t e Church of E n gland sc"": 0 4 guidefrye were at present ; that should be the great rul e " o f them ; he would be responsible for the e ducatio,_ o f , -;p s w h o wen t th ere t o l earn t h e cree d o f t h e Churc h it be responsible for that altogetb er !re 'nstruction that he should cl i 4 hould be under the contra ;in -r ; he would have the D3 bo 'ety, and parents ° . l s t derfectly satisfied tI., schools. He would teac h .ten of England there every day in the wee h b di the first dav of the year to the l as t ; he would te i s fA well on the Sunday as on the Monday ; he would 0' o f responsible, as it were only for the religious instruct:lt i o `he children whom he taught P ro t es t an ti sm upon sib"lBJoil -eek, and then allow them to slip through his fing er ",nl the Sabbath, and for religious instruction be taught P°P; o , at he would have no conce l6 —he would be church all over, but at same time he would_ open the door to other parties vill° no g to the Dissenters, areT er , '` I cannot on only for r a Church of England connection with COIRICE were C creed of and fror Witti th This was his feeling .ould s whom he k Catholics, yo u hot s lana scoo o rantee or formal eng 9 b;, ssible, from your Cle,slroi ,t. n, that your c hild ren s h a ll not unpi ovided with rei ous instruction, I w ill th en a ll ow you to absent theil'ffttl take to gi be fully at re Church of I )ur case to ception to the general rule; I will, permit you to reme cular instructio n , b u t it can b e only uP011,45:01. Ele knew there were du° b• ne knew there would 13,ebe form system which co ol b a d n the.plan which h e e d. P sacrificed or aband ( 4 l3 of not concession in.,l::the that there acknowled le would said ther ut conce ;ound measures had 1 wornise ! We bid eh country if .bolie relief bill been carried ? must be cone would haTa He felt the there no compromise it? Was t' ere no c?"', ill; he Collegiate Institution itself t could not carry on wit,P t i vould be the state of on ? God forbid ..4 how many .ed bv concess i on and C 0 ':"0 w Irish - agitators and cba rti be would have been the state of t 0 on to our present troubles, the Rc m3B ,4 nad not passed, or the reform' bill had ere o long as differences in opinion lasted , t il lon somewhere; and he did not th; k yid • -ng to his proP ° ' al ble pain and hesitation in inter for ibe o% acknovvleged that it was with He de any proposal of this sort. tes t ... those who surrounded him with the gr,e 3 ; o f ; but looking at the question in a municipal P Oll l 4 ew, he really could not arrive at any other conclusion , I c e he had come to it honestly and fairly ; they must folk him —he hoped •they would forgive him—they might t 'l l p could not come to any other cone r, Dr. Te te ,. to s s 'i; ng, was pleased s ot and those who agree , ' to h )ecause they had not g iv e , ic e Now he must beg Je be• in this matter, and h greatest difficulty he t sion. There was a gentleman—it shall—who, at a late Protestant m( that he (Mr. G. H. Lawrer him had got into their troubh the subject sufficient cot as the Re to differ from that reverend gentleman, and say, it v ia .„ s ;ibt cause they had given it too much co ns id era ti on . They ":-6or say, perhaps, that he allowed the situation of those, . i t e children to have too deep an imp ress i on u p on hi s roin°: o had a morbid sensibility upon th e su bj ec t, th e y might s ha d but still it existed, and he could not get rid of it. If he tb st contented himself with the common-place argumentc e r, because the reformers had chosen, whe n th e y were in P t k,fts to exclude the Church of England c hild ren , the conserva t i a je must, now that they were in power, do th e sam e, and ex c the Roman Catholics, he might have sw am w ith the st i llelt and not have given a mere negative vote. But he he", t he that, in a religious point of view, he c ould not mee t question in that way. Then again, there was a g entlel o o who was constantly remindi ng hi m o f th e equivocal Pllsitee• he occupied in that council; who told him he must be e minded of the positi on i n w hi c h h e stoo d , an d threntl ij t be him with the fate that awaited him in the ward be be d He honour to represent. (" B ravo ," f rom M r . E ARL E.) regretted that he should ha ve an y diff erence w ith the bo dy he had the honour to r ep resen t, b u t h e h a d taken 85ea deal of pains to explain to them, th a t if th e y were dissat' it his seat was at their dispo sa l i n November last, as %TR.:lusty, was in November next. He was always re a dy to do his.'„ " ut but it must be done with honou r an d i n d e p en d enc e ; that he should feel himself as nobody, a nd h e did trusty be this subject was settled, either one way or the other,oi. should not be looked upon as th e grea t h ere ti c h e was t ?f t be dered at present. In concl us i on , h e b egge d t o sa y, ti""„•oo• must do what he considered to be his duty on this oee a les He, therefore, called upon the council not to lend than s l o se to extremes, to beware how they joi ne d th emse lves to t 0 • who deemed the mere negation of Romish error more e ss 'oo tial than the propagation of christianity ; he called ar o them to be charitabl, and support some such system a s to had suggested ' • and above all things he called upon Wa l d. "be just, and fear not !" He begged to move the am e ment. A thti l Mr. BLACKBURN spoke 'o order. H e a pp re bende- be the proposition just made by Mr. Lawrence could 13 °.„," it entertained, without notice having been g ive n . To 0 appeared to be a substantive and distinct motion, u l3 ;', special subject: notice of it, therefore, ought to hav" given He agreed with Mr. Hornbv, that the " ma °ifes 7e' was quite out of place ; and he considered also that the sent proposal was informal in itself, for it was brought co d. ward in the shape of an amendment when it was no al o pOr ment at all, and it raised the very question (though, P er _bicb not intentionally) which would sup ers ed e a mo ti o n of he (Mr. Blackburn) bad already given form a l no tice. , -Nes that ," At if there was 11 ° S tye Eaucation Comrnitteetibere ntormal ; but as the system was_ Avg ~.11r. H. LAWltis submitt declaration as that made by tb amendment would be i certainly competent for 3nt upon it. Jn fact, if one member to move an amend it deference to the opinion 0 1 ; 0 5 Air. Blackburn's observ ati tbe . It was not a motion at all w hich rel y Education Committ ee h a d b roug h t f orwar d . They 0 , ! a re brought forward th e i r p rocee di ngs , w hi c h t h e council n.OOl called upon eith er t o con fi rm or re j ect ; t h ere f ore, the u 3" Mr. HoDaso H. I recce, mu . fectly just ay that subsequently proposed was irregular and out of course. . 00 . Mr. EARLE was just going to make a similar obserr a t ti r as The principle h a d b een a ll a l ong es t a bli s h e d, an d agf` eo t that went there was nothing new in it ; but this amen" ° oo tr was in direct opposition to the p r i nc ipl e . It coal , ' therefore, be entertained without notice. d to Mr. HORNBY would make one observation with reggr ve p order, in consequence of a legal doctrine which had t of set up by the Town-clerk system on the Par committees was to be est way n end tl.,e It till lisped, - i to him, if this Pr, l , l pg - - d to u'"„e, ing or however .c, his was quite a new Pr' ) in the habit, when tb ceedings of committe!'l favour of the Education. - . rogated by the co - mmi ° t h te g e — s 1 duties, as members of the con,n c - ,anwdhwichhe,reinwoeuriel: they would be p ;top ? Their power vould be vould become so many imperil in imperio . _ whole powers of tl pting I 'uring the mayoralty of Mr. Gladsto o humorous! CQURAG at Ithint Iney of prize is, however, apo Ince is for a local chari eir_ meeting; on the 3rd would promote the beneficial objects and intention of the' schools to omit any statement of such distinction in reporting rcial distress I the number of children on the books and in attendant lawism, have the schools nd the committ fore recommend that The report of the proceedings concluded ~with the following statement of the plan by which the committee think it de sirable their proceedings should be governed. " The Education Committee, looking back with satisfaction to the proceedings of the past year, think it right to state the hat they had 110 confidence in the town councils a do with the ed But ; assu , eople, the tion of th it for a Moment to be intended that they should be an educating body, was it not probable that the legislature would have acted in a very different way—that they would have defined the kind of instruction they should give, if th e y were t o g i ve any at all ? He was sure this would have been the case, if the legislattire had had any such intention. Let him ask, again, if it were intended that the council should be teachers, what kind of education the legislature would have been likely to establish ? Would they have sanctioned the system of education which we had had the satisfaction of uprooting here, and which Mr. Blackburn approved, namely, the Irish system ? He thought not. Lord Stanley, who introduced this system in Ireland, himself a zealous churchman, a member of her Majesty's present government, a man whose opinion might be relied upon, the author of the Irish system of education in that country, and the founder of the Liver. pool Collegiate Institution in this—a man whom the clergy The TOWN-CLERK said, it appeared to him necessarY,Y ) ,, e - t the council should understand in what way the slwi - e t of education cause before them. It came before th eca e merely upon the notice in the summons paper, but by tb g proceedings of the Education Committee being, for two 11 1 0 previously to the meeting, deposited in the office of t h e Clerk of Committees, for the inspection of members of ti,fe council. Those proceedings would clearly show that tPd principle upon which education should be conducted 1),13„,, been under the consideration of the committee; an d the vt i. V e consideration of them should come before the coun cil. t' a t conceived, certainly,. that a motion like the present --tu „ the Education Committee should take into considerati on ceP it tain views—was one that might be brought forward -I ' B Y' arose out of the proceedings which the Education Committed themselves submitted ; and unless this rivilege was allo we o to members, it would come to this—it must only be " Y a , ei t, e or "nay" up-on whatever the comm itt ee su bmitted. , subject i had been before the me m b ers —they had had an 0 p portunity, f they chose to avail th emse l v es of it, of knova' HATHAM very ettorc wa rest w rtially it ive whol 3y two f