The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1836-11-25 00:00:00

TOWN- CO UNC EL PROCEEDINGS. On Wednesday last the Council met accordlug to adjourn ment, fur the purpose of discussing a motion brought forward by Mr. Coencillnr Birch, the effect of which was to dispose of the C.irporation Schools, they having become mere places of sectarian education, which was what they had previously, endea voured to avoid. The Irish system of education pursued in them having lied the effect. of driving out four-fifths of the Protestant children who had betetofore frequented them, and converting them into schools for the education of the children of Roman Ca tholics—thus making a large portion of the inhabitants of the town contribute towards that from which they derived no benefit, and which was the principal complaint against the old system. Cousiderable excitement was occasioned in the town with re gard to Mr. Cuuncidor Birch's motion ; and Mr. Councilor Rathbone wrote a circular letter to the members of the Council, calling strenuously upon the reform members of it to resist the motku, cud not to yield this refinnu tc, "popular clamour," and declaring that, if they did yield it, "their opponents (the Tories) had only .to renew the outcry, and threaten to heat the reformers at the next election." thuS rendering the discussion at once a and by this ruse, and appea l to purely Wirtv and political one, the politieal lints of the majority of the Council. endeavouring to retain that s y s tem which it was more than d ou btf u l t h e com mon sense and tile awakened feelings of the public against the Sy s tem would have induced them to reject. Und e r these cir eionstanees- it of:eded no prophet to predict the issue. On the the Rev. Hugh M`Seile felt him seifappearauce of this circular, ca,t:el upon to reply to some of the statements as regarded the system pursued ; and he addressed a letter containg powerful ' and hitherto unanswered arguments, confining himself to the feasibiiity or otherwise of the wish system. A considerable de- gree of excitement consequently pervaded the - public mind. TheConncil 7 romn was excessively crowded, there being 56 mem bers present Out of the 61 — Preyi us - to the commencement of the adjourned discussion, The M area said he had received several communications, Which the Tewn Clerk said had better be disposed of before the discussion commented. The AI Avon then read a ereemunication from a gentleman of the name of Coates, respecting the consumption of gases and other vapours, as applicable to the chemical manufactories. The eommunication was referred to the Improvement Com mittee. The aI .A YOR had received another communication from a gen tleman the name of Tunstall, in Sir Thomas's Buildings, on the so hject of widening the streets. This was also referred to the Improvement Committee. A - conimunication front a gentleman named Henderson, with respect to a plot of ground for an observatory, was referred to the Finance Committee. The TOWN CLERK said that according to notice they might now proceed to appoint an officer to act as High Constable, for the purposes of the WatA Rate; and as the Magistrate's clerks had been appuiuted fur that purpose for the County Rate, and as the office was not one of any emolument, there would perhaps be no objection to the Deputy Town Clerk being appointed. No dissent was made to this, and the appointment was conse quently made. The rules for the government of the criminal prisoners in the Borough Gaol, and which had been submitted to Lord J. Rus sell, and with very slight alterations approved of, were referred to the gaol committee. AUDITORS OF THE DOCK ESTATE. . The TOWN-G[3I,RK said that, pursuant to notice, the town council had now to proceed to the appointment of four auditors to the dock estate. By the duck act the council had to appoint four auditors to act with eight other auditors appointed by the rate payers. The gentlemen appointed ought not to be members of the council. There was no act against it; but it would not be proper, as a matter of principle, that the trustees of the docks should audit their own accounts. Mr. Councillor .1. N. Wool) begged to propose the names of four gentlemen every way qualified for the office, viz., Mr. llo• Bert Begot, Mr. Hewson Dutchman, Mr. Henry Sandbach, and Mr. T. Brockleb.ink. These names were then put to iatim. bach being proposed, Mr. Alderman Eras EVANS, seconded by Mr. Councillor Maxwell. begged to move, as an atnenament, Mr. Thus. Holt, of the council. Mr. Councillor BOLToN said it was a very unimportant office. An they had to do was to see that they had vouchers for every payment. Mr. Alderman EVANS persisted in his motion. Mr. Holt was au excellent accountant, and it was desirable to have hint in reserve. Mr. Councillor J. N. WOOO then withdrew Mr. Hentx Sand baeh's name, and Mr. Holt was appointed. On Mr. Henry Sand- MU. PA lILOUIeS CLAIM. The TOWN-CLERK said Mr. Parlour's claim remained vet unsettled, and it was for the consideration of the council whe ther they would refer it to the watch committee, it having for merly had the management of the inquiries which had ended in the removal of that officer. The claim was then referred to the watch committee. The Towx.cr.gax said that, according to the municipal act, an alderman wust annually be appointed for each ward to exe cute the duties required from aldermen for the respective wards. It would he proper, therefore, he understood, that at the next council meeting the councillors should come prepared to assign an alderman for each of the separate wards. lIHH CORPORATION SCHOOLS. The NIAYOR said that, all the trifling matters having now been gone through, he should call upon Mr. Rarnsden, who had a petition to present on the subject of the adjourned discussion. Mr. Councillor RAatsoEN said he had a memorial to present from the inhabitants - of the North Toxteth Ward on the school question. The sentiments it expressed were the sentiments of a large and influential body of men professing reform principles. The memorial purported to be from a politic meeting held on the 22d day of November, and stated that the memorialists, hay iee heard with regret of the proposal to sell the corporation schools, trusted that such a measure would not be adopted, as i t would reflect great discredit on the council. It stated the alarm to be very great in the ward lest the schools should be given up, as there were no hopes that tiro surplus funds of the corporation would provide a substitute. 'the councillor for North Toxteth Ward then said he could say a great deal upon this subject; but, on presenting that me morial, he thought it proper to be as brief as possible. Mr. Councillor PLATT begged to propose that the memorial be received • and, in doing so, he would say a few words on the subject. His mind had been considerably alarmed by the dif ferent reports that had come, and also by the letter which he bad read about the exclusion of the bible from the schools. In order to relieve his mind he had visited these schools; and, he was happy to say, that so far .as he had gone, the reports were utterly unfounded. The bible was in use, and had never been excluded ; and not only so, but, in the South Schools, it was highly gratifying, to see a Protestant clergyman reading and explaining the bible to the children, an act which redo u t i d e d t o the credit burn of the head and the heart of that gentleman— Mr. Aspinali. That gentleman had assured hint that he daily read and explained the bible to the children. He did not stand there as an advocate of the Irish system of education any more than he did of au English or Scotch system of education : but, to his mind, this system appeared to work extremely well, and he could not imagine anything more applicable. Mr. Councillor E. Sums said, with regard to that meeting he believed there was much agitation in the town on the subject, and he should move, if it were likely that the schools were to be done away with, that their verdict should be delayed a mouth, in order that the public Might have an opportunity of express ing what their sentiments and feelings were. They would then see that the opinions expressed at the Amphitheatre and other places by political partisans were not the opinions of the ma jority of the inhabitants of the tetra. ( Hear, hear.) Mr. Councillor BIRCH was then called on by the Mayor. He said, when he had addressed the council before on the subject of the schools, he haul entered very fully into his reasons for be lieving that it was most desirable that they should be disposed of, tinder certain regulations, providing for their continuanc e hereafter as seminaries. Since that time he had most anxiously and carefully re-considered the subject, and although he did not intend, nn that occasion, to propose precisely the seine motion as he had done before, yet he was as firmly persuaded as ever, that it was not only impolitic and unjust, but that it was abso lutely impossible to persevere in conducting the schools much longer exclusively on the present system. He had in this ques tion endeavoured, by every means in his power, to divest him self of party bias; and he belies,: he might Say with truth, that he had not indulged in any rancorous or political allusions. Notwithstanding which, it had been said, that be bad been in fluenced by a dread of incurring unpopularity, and a fear of offending the Conservative party. Aeiunst charges so general cud heavy as these, it was extremely difficult for any man to undertake to defeeel himself. As fur any personal feeling and desire of popularity, the very humble station which he was till ing in that council would ever prevent him from presuming to think about such a thing as popularity. It seemed to him to be ridiculous. And as to any fear of offending the opposite party, he could only say, that whilst he was anxious to give a becoming consideration to the opinions of others, be did not think he had ever, in that council, felt any great concei ii as to what party his opinions might please, or offend. But as a reference had been made to their moral ,:ourav on this question, they would pet mit bins to observe this—that he tl:ought moral * courage was always most powerfully exhibited when it urged, as in his case, the prosecution of what he felt to be his duty, and opposed him to the opinions of his own parts, and the inctine tions of his own mind. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) He could assure them that he was net insensible to this feeling; but be did feel a fear, and lie was not ashamed to mention it—a fear of encouragin. a Spirit of (matinee rejection of the ascot tainesi wishes of the' public. (Hear.) He feared to forfeit the character of that council in the public estimation by a pertina cious adherence to an acknowledged error, and, moreover, he feared to supply the opponents of liberal institutions with a practical argument against reform, by showing that an assem bly, popularly chosen, had foiled ats exclusive systeM in opera tion in the schools, and haul replaced it by another system still more exclusive. (Hear, hear, hear.) The most popular arguments he had heard against the proposition he lied iufro duced iuto the council consisted merely in the assertion that the srleai adopted in the schools had not yet bad a sufficient trial, and that the opposition to it had originated and was still carried on frein party and political mobs es ; but that in a very short period the religious scruples of the protestant, would dis appear when the advantages derived from the present system were seen. fie was perfectly willing to give the gentlemen who used these arguments the utmost credit for sincerity, but he must say that the arguments themselves were of very little 'value. It was very true, indeed, that theory against the council had been swelled by the shouts of mauy who took very little in terest in the questiou, (hear,) but to urge that the great body of the people of Liverpool was instigated by a criminal desire of using the sacred name of religion merely for the purpose of in juring the reputation of that council, seemed to him to attribute to the town a most iniquitous principle of action, and, at the same time, to raise that council into an unnatural degree of ino portance. (Hear.) It was his opinion that in the breasts of a large portion of the people there existed a firm and permanent hostility to the present system. He did believe that the pro testant dissenters generally would not resort to the si heels. He was satisfied that the idea of amalgamating the diffeient sects of religion, however it might be entertained, would never be carried into effect. It was a very common practice with those dissenting from the opinions of others to say that the opinions of their adversaries were religious prejudices. Now if this were fair in reference to one, it was fair as regarded the whole; and the advocates of this system, when they alluded to their opponents as persons under the influence of religious prejudices, ought not to forget that the same observation might with equal justice he applied to themselves. There was no mor e Propriety in the friends of the Irish system of education asserting th a t time would reconcile the protestants to the system than there would have been in the clergy asserting the same with regard to opposition to the old system, and that time would reconcile (Hear. the, catholics to the indiscriminate use of the Bibl e . imzuise) 'betroth was, and there was no Lae in attempti ng t o bibed, and at religious principles and prejudices were early any earthly peweV aid not believe when once th e y were fixed that sa tisfaction rather thawnouT remove them. It was a source of question had beenos(i'lle,asure to him that the settlement of their. an oeportithity e f e' et a i t' Postponed; because it had given for relieving themselves from"i:l,i: of the most desirable means Although his object' Wa s difficulties which existed. been on the former occasion, when precisel7 he h h e a saTne with what it had a y tio d e f, .. yet he should from the public mind a great source agitation et rennme p A rornse to Istate:relish that thinky on the questioni e rn e! all s t he had had time to bearings, be hoped it would not be ill received if he modified his former resolution. He should propose that, instead of the schools being disopsed of, they be continued under their present system, and that other schools should be built as early as possible, which, should be conducted on the principles which were formerly maintained in the corporation schools of the borough. He wad induced to hope that by this very simple arrangement the object they had in view would be attained, and that they would set at rest for ever this extremely vexatious question. By this ar rangement, those wh o o bj ec t e d t o th e Irish system might send their children to the other schools, and those who objected to the use of the bible might take advantage of the Irish system. He did nut know that any christian sect could but be satisfied with one or other of these modes. lie ought to state that he had consulted the Town-clerk as to the legality of the erection of other schools, and he was happy to say, without entering into the question, under the sanction of the Town-clerk, if it should be deemed desirable by the council to accede to this proposition, there would be no legal difficulty in such a measure. (Hear.) He hoped, and trusted, that this proposition would be fairly and favourably considered by all parties, and to that part y . which was familiarly styled the liberal party, it seemed to him, it could not be otherwise than agreeable , because it w o uld be the means of extending to an incalculable degree the blessings of poplar education, which would lead to the improvement of society and the happiness of the people. Those gentlemen who formed a part ut the council, if they were disposed to act in the true spirit of p irty might vote against it, because they would bring on the council great dis„race to vote otherwise, but he was constrained to think that they would not act in such a mode. He was pate pared to give the seine credit to them that be claimed for him self; but he thought their good sense of what etas due to the Roman Catholic's would likewise bear in mind what was due to their constituents. He was extremely anxious that this ques tion shoutd be peaceably disposed of He really cared nothing about party benefits. They were well enough in their way, but when placed in competition with the peace, and happiness, and contentment of society, they were, in his estimation, weak and valueless. He trusted that the excitemeut which had been kept up by this question would cease. Political excitements were quite enough; but if they promoted these religious dissensions, trey would keep the town in a continual broil. In conclusion, he begged to propose, 'chat it was just and proper that the benefits of religious instruction should be open to the poor of every denomination ; and, in order the more effectually to pro mote this object, it was expedient to erect additional schools, to be conducted on the praotice of the former corporation schools -of the borough." (Cheers.) - Mr. Councillor J. SMITH had considered the subject in all its bearings, and conscientiously believed that the present system, of religious instruction, introduced into the schools, had been fairly tried, and had signally' failed. (Cries of " Hear I" and "No, no !") Gentlemen said " No. no !" he said " Yes, yes!" Convinced that the pieta' of religious education intro duced might answer extremely well in a Catholic country like Ireland, but that it would never suit the feelings or taste of a Protestant people like the English—firmly convinced of this, he saw no better method that could be pursued to allay the religious ferment in the public mind, than at once to adopt the plan of Mr. Birch. It must be evident to every one, from the results of the late municipal election, that the. Irish system was a inrest unpopular one. The voice of the people was against its introduction. (Cries of" No.") And they might as weltendeavour to stern the tide of the ocean as to stem the tide of public opinion. He would repeat it—the voice of the people was against them. Its advocates might deny the fact ; but only let them continue the experiment to the Ist of the following November, and he would venture to predict that they would be convinced of it in a manner that could not be mistaken of the truth of his assertion. Taking all these mutters into cousi detetion, he most cordially supported the motion of Mr. Birch, because he considered it the only method by which they could consign to the doom of oblivion the demon of religious discord; and the only means to infuse into the minds of contending sects and parties charitable feelings of harmony and peace. Mr. Councillor Beecxeuers here rose, and was immediately followed by Mr. Councillor J. Cropper. Mr. Blackburn then said, a member wished to move an amendment. Out of courtesy he did not object to concede to his request. Mr. Councillor J. CROPPER said Mr. Blackburn might make it perfectly agreeable. He only did so in order that Mr. Black burn might have an opportunity of replying to his amendment in his speech. Mr. Blackburn then eat down. Mr. Councillor J. Ceopeett said he did not wish to detain the council long. With the early part of the remarks of Mr. Birch he entirely concurred ; but he was very sorry to see that he had changed his views since the last occasion, and proposed another motion, leaving altogether the one which he had had the plea sure of seconding. He conceived that he was acting on prin ciple when he proposed that the corporation schools should be sold, because he conceived that the corporation never could conduct sch'bols on any principle which would be satisfactory to the whole population, and on that ground he felt it his duty to stand forward and support the resolution which he had seconded on a former occasion. The strongest reason that he had urged against the sale of the schools was, that it would be a concession to popular clamour, and give the conservatives a triumph over them and make the corporation a laughing stock. Now, if they had done wrong, as Bible .Ceristians it would be the strongest proof of courage to retrace their steps. (Hear.) He thought he had done wrong when he allowed the introduction of that system into the schools,- and, in order to put himself right he would move, " That it be an instruction to the Finance Com mittee to sell the schools on a 75 years lease, or for a specified sum ; that they be sold separately, and with the stipulation that they be continued as schools for the education of the poor." Mr. Councillor EDWAIO3 CROPPER, as no one seconded the motion begged leave to second it. He did so as a matter 4f principle. He felt bound to get rid of any system, which ex cluded the Bible. (Cries of " Oh.") Mr. Councillor H. LAWRZNCE suggested the propriety of postponing that amendment until Mr. Birch's motion had been disposed of. He considered Mr. Birch's motion as well cal culated to still the public ferment and give general satisfaction. Mr. Councillor BoeToe conceived Mr. Blackburn to he in possession of the chair, and as such, moved that he proceed. Mr. Councillor BLACK HURriE would take the liberty of mov ing as an amendment, the following:—" That the conduction of the schools be continued under the direction of the elicas tional committee. appointed for their management." He should not offer any apology fur taking the liberty of intruding himself again on the council, on this important subject. The deep in terest he had always felt in education generally, and the active, part which had fallen to his lot in the management of the cor poration schools, should be his excuse. When the proposition had been brought forward, he had said that he should reserve himself, and make a few observations upon it. When a propo sition was brought forward to sell the schools altogether, he could not be content to give a silent vote on the question. If he understood rightly the arguments of the councillor for Cas tle-street ward, he had rested his argument chiefly on two grounds. He trusted, he would not consider it unfair, if he should allude to what had been published on the questiou. The first ground was, that these schools were opposed by public opinion, and the second was, that they were strictly, after all, sectarian schools. He would say a word on either of those sub jects. He apprehended by "public opinion,' they , were to un derstand, in the present instancee-and the councillor for North Toxteth bad adopted his opinion—was meant the opiniou of the majority. He would grant that this system had been most vehemently opposed by a very influential, and powerful party, usually de - nominated the high church, and tory party. They were well aware that it would be so. Every one must have known that that party was most strenuously opposed to this system, from the very first hour of its introduction, with one brief exception. He alluded to the period during which the Peel and Wellington administration was in office During that time the opposition to this system ceased for a while, and when the ministry in power announced, as they did, that they in tended to continue the system, and to make larger grants of money in support of it, than had been granted in preceding years, then this violent opposition had sank down into oblivion. nut the moment Sir Robert Peel, and his parts , were driven front power, it was re-urged, with all the cant about excluding the Bible, in order to annoy a patriotic ministry. Ile was aware, un moving the resolution fur the introduction of the Irish sys tem into the corporation schools, that it would be necessary to count the cost, and anticipate the opposition they had expe rienced. He hail done so ; and he felt there was nothing in that opposition which ought, he contended, to have the slightest influence on their opinions. That opposition was precisely what they ought to 'expect—neither more nor less. It was tri te indeed, that some few individuils, who had not usually acted with that party, along with the influente they had, had been drawn ever to them, a few of those who were usually found among the racks of the reformers. But they were influenced by mistaken netiens, and were under a delusion; and he en tertained et) doubt of their return to their former opinions. (Loud cries of heer.) It teas a.serted that the majority of the eeeple were egainvt them, anti an appeal had been made, on the former occissiere and ore the present occasion, by the coun cillor for West Derby Ward to the facts of the late election. At the lute late electiete the reformers had returned a majority; Si that, even taking that as the criterion, there was no de eisive evidence that the majority were against them. And l i e would take the liberty of stating that the school ques tion eves not the only question ou which it had been endea voured to make a point against thorn. Ilad there been no effort in relation to the police question ? Had there been no attempt made on the score of the iuterfcrenc e of the police, and the vi gilance which had been exercised by that body in repressing crime ? ( Hear.) To do their opponents justice, they were very excellent tacticians. They knew hew to take advantage of particular circumstances in their favour ; and they were not over.nice about the 'ileums. ( Hear.) While one Party were turning up the whites of their eyes at the sad enormity of the exclusion of the Bible front the schools, another party were ban quetting and feasting together, and coquetting with the keepers of saloons, condemuing the police, and all fur the love of Con servatism, and for the love of the Protestant cause ! (Loud cries of hear, and laughter.) A considerable degree of outcry raised by the party might be attributable to tins. it was not to be wondered at, especially when they took into consideration that the triumph of their own party, at the first municipal elec tion, had lulled many of the wails into a state of unwise and false security, and aroused the opposite party to the use of these means in order to secure success. But, after all, where was the evidence that the public voice was against them ? So far from that, he would venture to contend that the contrary was the case. Was it not a fact that a very considerable proportion of the most influential members of the Church of England supported and approved of these schools. He maintained that to be the tact in opposition to the opinion which his friend the member for Castle-street Ward had urged ; and an immense majority of Dissenters highly appreciated and valued 'the importance of the system, and bad continued to do so from the very first moment of its introduction ; and the Roman Catholic poi.ulation were with them as the heart of one man. They hailed the establish ment of these selections as an immense benefit to them ; and it was an evidence on the part of England towards lreland, that the union of Ireland with England was something mote than a name. (Hear.) The noise the party made was no proof of their numbers—no proof of their strength--(hear)—on the con trary, violence and vehemence were pretty plain indications of their want of power ; and when they considered that public meetings against the system were got up for the pui pose, and the lashing it had received from the pulpit, they might believe that it was a proof that the opposition to it was failing in its effect and dying away. (Hear, from Mr. Councillor Egerton Smith.) He contended that the first argument adduced had not the weight that its propounder attached to it; and so far from there being any reason to'aholish the system on that ground, they had every encouragement to persevere iii it. Suppose they as the means of set tiring peace, were to change their course, and to put au end to religious discerd and *di ir o i n th e town, did they think that any such effect wonld follow Did tiny man imagine that the opposition of the 'Tory party iii the members of that Council would be changed ? So far fr o m that being the case. the very circumstance of conceding to public opinion would have the effect of furnishing* them with new and additional arguments to oppose them, and taunt them with pusillanimity, and hold up this as a proof of their ti:tal w ail s o f principle, and of their preference of place to the maintenance of those princi ples which they held to be right, and on that ground as un orthy of public confidence, and deserving to be exCluded from the council. And what would they gain by peace purchased in such a mode? If one party were pleased, it did not follow that every body would be pleased. Would their friends who had supported them he perfectly satisfied ? So far from peace, the only effect would be, that, instead of being attacked by those who were and must be their enemies, they would then be at tacked. by their friends ; and, after being guilty of that weak ness, and subjected to other complaints, they tv:iithl find that they bad not conciliated thc.;se who Would be for ever opposed THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD. for their diseentineance sees in that (%:uw ; much less now, when a'uflut u ail part of the whute number were alrea.i!, Protes tants, atidslie had hopes that they %ietsai ;et rsase. Au.; al the whole children beet . , the poor childree et Irish lZoinan Catho lics, he must honestly say, that he neither admired the charac ter nor envied the feelings of that man who could dissent front their admission into these schools,—who could dissent' from the assemblage of a number of children together in these schools, who were the most deserted, in order to secure to them habits of order and of propriety—brOught together to fit them for useful ness in future life, and, at the same time, to give them habits of order, decency, and propriety. To acquire a knowledge of the books of Genesis, Luke, and the Acts of the Apostles, present ed a scene at which indeed bigotry might frown, but ;it which true christian philanthrophy would gaze with emotions of delight. He had thus endeavoured to meet the principal objections which his friend, the member for Castle-street Ward, had raised, on introducing the motion which he had now abandoned. He must make a few observations on what his esteemed friend, the mein ber for South Toxteth Park, had said; he had contended that education was not a matter in which they could interfere. Now, he was very far from agreeing with hint on this subject. They were authorised by the municipal act to employ the surplus funds for the good of the town, and in improving the condition of the inhabitants. Was the education of the poor not good ? Was there no advantage in amploying a small portion of this sum for such an object ? (Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) So far from agreeing with him, he was of opinion that they had done well and wisets. They had done well in beginning with the education of the 'ewer ranks; and he trusted and hoped that they should vet realise the object which had been adverted to some time afro by a councillor for Abercromby Ward. (Dr. Carson, on the subject of establishing a university.) Their neighbours at Manchester were now directing their attention to the estiibiishment of such an institution ; and with regard to the schooe.s theinselvee, he trusted they should never rest satisfied till they had carried them to then highest point of efficiency. ! Why should net Liverpool havc: her norme? schools as well as Edinburgh? Why should they have it said ;;sat the schook existing here were obliged to send to the main for teachers ? There was a great demand for teachers throughout the kingdom, and it was an object worthy of ambition to make these schools capable of sending out future teachers—sources of benefit to all the country, and spreading abroad information in every direc tion. They had been told that "the introduction of this system was a "feeler," its order to ascertain whether the people of this country were ready to adopt a system so favourable to popery. (A laugh from Mr. E. South.) Now he had had the honour of introducing this system first to the Education Committee; and he had strenuously advocated it,*and he should continue to do so, and he did not hesitate to say that he gloried in it. He was perfectly willing to allow th a t it was a feeler on his part ; and he hoped and believed that it would extend all over the country. (Hear, from Mr. Councillor E. Smith.) If the system were right in one part of the country, it could not be morally wrong in the other ; and therefore they were bound to consent, where the same mixed population existed, to its establishment in this country. Wherever a mixed population of catholics and pro testants existed it was desirable, he contended, that this system should be extended, in every part of the empire ; and he trusted that the future historian would have to record that that council had been the first to make the experiment. He regarded it as an honour to have made the experiment ; and he trusted it. would succeed. Let them not tell him that there was any danger to protestantisin from an union of catholics and protestants. Let them not disgrace protestantism by telling him any such thing. If he thought there was any danger to protestantism—to the views he entertained—from associating with catholics, he would instantly go over himself to the Roman Catholic faith. That system which would not bear examining must be wrong. (Loud cries of " blear.") He did not know any thing why he should be afraid to admit the system to a fair trial. If this should fail, he should begin to suspect that it was contrary to truth. What ever was the opinion on this point, that was not the place to discuss it; they were not met there for that purpose. But this he would say, "great is the truth, and it will prevail." The education of the human mind would render them capable of examining the subject for themselves. They were aware that from its first introduction to the present period a great majority of the clergy of Ireland had been strongly and violently opposed to this system of education. There had been from the first some honourable exceptions—some men who had seen its value. They had joined in giving the board their support, and he was happy to say that their number was on the increase; and there was some hope that the opposition to it in Ireland would be greatly abated, if not put an end to. They would remember that the Rev. Charles Boydell tied been sent over some years ago as a delegate from an orange society. That distinguished and talented gentleman had altered his views upon this subject, and, wit some slight qualification, had given in his adhesion to the system. The clergy of the diocese of Kilmore had re cently had a meeting with a view to take into consideration this subject, and though he believed that that meeting had expressed itself hostile to it, yet he maintained that it was a circumstance showing that there was a skaking in the opinions of men on this subject on the other side of the water. It was not at a time like this, when the strenuous opponents of the measure were be ginning to relax, that that reform council should now concede, because they were simply charged with the enormous crime of giving a good education to a few Irish Roman Catholic chil dren. ( Hear.) The question that they bad to decide that day regarding these schools was one of great importance. The council stood in a responsible situation, he contended, with re gard to these schools, and the effect to be produced by its decision would be considerable. He had no doubt their oppo nents were anxiously watching what that decision would be : that decision would be watched through the length and breadth of Ireland. Let them look at the state of that country at the pre sent moment—let them contemplate its writs of rebellion where the tithes were got.in, and tell him whether the establishment in that country had any popularity to spare. He would ask the mem bers of the council at the present moment whether it was wise and discreet in them to deprive them of the addition of education in the schools? They were in a predicament when it was wise to conciliate—to do all that laid in their power, as individuals, to soothe the feelings of irritation, which but too justly existed in the minds of the Irish people in relation to this country. It behoved them to show attention to every mode of conciliating religious differences, and he contended they could do so in this instance with perfect consistency. Was it not infinitely better that these schools should remain open, and accessible to the catholics, that, When the poor peasant, driven from that land, came accross, and set his foot on our shores—goaded, per haps, by some tithe process—was it not desirable that there should exist one institution to which he could go without being told that he was a proscribed man, and cast out of society, be cause be professed au erroneous faith ?—that he could go to such an institution, instead of being frowned away as an alien in language, and religion? He .must advert for a single mo ment to the proposal brought forward by his friend. His ob jection to the non-adoption of that course was, that they should be establishing strictly sectarian schools, on the principles for merly adopted—schools which would excite strong opposition. And they would be exclusive schools. His second ground of objection was, that he gathered front the whole tenour, and course of the present schools, that they were not sectarian— that they were open to protestants, and Church of England pro fessors might attend them, and obtain all the advantages of bible reading as effectually as in the schools which formerly existed. On that, he contended, the whole issue depended, and he contended that, these schools were strictly neutral, and freely open to all denominations. Such were some of the views, and feelings by which he had been actuated in standing forward as the humble, and unworthy advocate of these schools. Such were some of the hopes in which lie had ventured to indulge concerning their future usefulness to this great population, and to this great country. It depended on the votes of the mem bers of the coucil on that clay, whether these hopes were to be realized or not. To the refarters of that couneil he appealed for their vote. On them depended whether these schools shou!d be continued or not, and be knew they would not disappoint him. He knew that they would nut, cowed by the malignant howl of faction, shrink, and come down from the lofty elevation (its whets they stood. He sat down in the perfect confidence of their votes—he sat down confident that they would have the admiring view of the empire turned towards them fur the noble example they lied set of philanthropy, and patriotism, and of enlightened christianity. (The honourable member sat clown amidst loud applause, to which Mr. Alderman Stuart mainly contributed, by vehement clapping of hands.) Mr. - Councillor RATHBONE said he was quite aware, after this very brilliant, and, to his mind, powerful an d l og i ca l a dd ress, o f the disadvantages he laid under in bringing before them dry details of facts. lie had put these facts into writing, because he was aware they would be criticised —not according to their in tention and meaning, but according to verbal criticism. [Mr. Councillor Rathbone then proceeded, with great rapidity and some indistinctness, to read his speech. The reading of this speech was precisely what the speaker had predicted it. name ly, a very "dry" affair. From the rapidity and indistinctness with which it was spoken the reporters gave up the attempt of taking notes, and the council appeared to pay very little atten tion to it. We have, however, copied the "authorised version" from the second edition of the Telegraph, to which paper we have reason to believe the manuscript w as furnished.] The written speech begun, "In seconding the amendment of my friend Mr. Blackburn, which I do most cordially, it is not n intention to trouble you with a long reply to the circular ad dressed to you by the Rev. Hugh 111`Neile, as d have only a few facts to oppose to his long columns of suppositious. The reso lution past by the Education Committee on the 15th of June, was to set - apart certain hours " for the formation of Bible classes; and other religious instruction." On the sth of Jnly the hours for religious instruction were changed ; but as the re solution merely altered the hours, the nat ure o the religious instruction was not again specified. Whether the resolution passed in Council specified the Bible classes particularly, I do not remember; if not, it was an omission; but the intention ..has been clearly stated too often tobe misunderstood. So much for our rules—our practice I will give hereafter. The second position is supported with a similar inattention to the laws of evidence, and refers to what Lord Stanley has written on the Kildare-street Society, not choosing to meet the fact of what the Board themselves have declared to be their intention, and the provision they have made to carry that intention into effect. The preface to the selections, and fur which a Protestant Arch bishop, of piety and leaining, - is responsible, especially declares that the object of the selections is to promote the reading of the Bible. In addition to this, the Board provides hours for reli gious instruction, which instruction common candour might have led a Protestant Clergyman to suppose a Protestant Aich. bishop would not consider complete without the use of the Bible, even had it not been declared that the selections had this object in view. The following are the rules of the Irish Board on this subject :- 3d Head.—Regulations of the schools as to tuition, &c. Rule 1. Such extracts from Scripture as are prepared under the sanction of the Board, ivay be used, and are earnestly re commended by the Board to be used doting those hours allotted to this ordinary school system. 2. One day its each week (independently of the Sunday) is to be set ripest for the religious instruction of the children, on which day such parsons or other persons as are approved of by the parents or guardians of the children, shall have access to them for that purpose, whether those parsons have signed the original application or not. 3. The managers of schools are also expected, should the parents of any of the children desire it, to afford convenient op portunity and facility for the same purpose, either after or be fore the ordinary school business (as the managers may deter- I mine), on other days of the week. to them, and who were their natural eheinles, and uffeud those who constituted the very sinews of their strength. ( Hear.) lie had hizhertu viewed this argument with relatiuu to numbers as something based on a solid principle; but he did not consider this argument based on a solid principle at all. Ile did not consider that gentlemen who took seats in that room, as repie sentatisies of different constituencies, came there as de-legates, as automatons, as unreasoning representatives of the opinions of others. -tie contended that this was not.a correct theory of representation at all; it was impracticable; for, in order to carry out this system, they must poll out every member of the constituency on every question that would arise. A man who came there as a representative, came there because the person who chose him had confidence in his integrity and judgment; and he came there authorized and entitled to force his own judgment on every question that came before him, and to act on- that judgment. (" Hear," from Mr. Councillor El. Smith ) • They were not _intended to go there in slavish submission to their constituents. He had already contended, and he trusted successfully, that the majority were with them. He entertained that opinion most firmly front an inquiry pretty extended as to the state of public opinion,,. But, were it otherwise—were it the fact—and were they assured of it—that the majority of the peo ple of the town were opposed to those schools—he did not see why they should concede to their abolition. The question was, were these schools useful, and valuable, and calculated to pro mote the best interests of the coinuittnity ? And, if they could satisfy themselves on-that point, their course was clear—their ditty was plain and obvious—it became their duty to vote for their continuance, be the Consequences what they might. And a man was unworthy of a seat in that council•room who was not prepared to say—" - Farewell to office and farewell to power, if they could not be maintained with consistency to principles based on justice!" The second argument which had been rested much on was the fact asserted by the councillor for Castle-street, but not proved, that the schools were sectarian. After all, he did not know whether he regarded them as secta rian in their very principle and nature, or whether he considered them as having become co in point of fact from the state of feel ing and practice of the town. lie should beg to offer au obser. vatiou or two ou both these positions; and, first, as to the fact. There were at present in the schools connected with the cor poration about 1,300 children. In the whole of that number he believed he might assume (and he was under the mark) that 250 were protestant and IWO Roman Catholic children—a very goodly proportion of protestants. When they considered the pe culiar circumstances of the case—he granted that the dispropor tion was very considerable—but when they considered the circumstances, it was not so great as might have been expected. He begged to call to their recollection the circumstances which existed when first these, schools had been called into existence. When they were first opened, they had. not a single individual in the schools to direct them. The individuals who had previously had the management of them gave up ►heir management a day or two before they wet° opened, and they had not the slightest assistance. In addition to this, the individuals who had previous ly conducted the schools wore immediately installed into situa tions of a similar kind in the neighbourhood Where they had existed, and they used every art to draw children away by re presenting the schools as popish schools; and placards were stuck about, signed by clergymen, calling upon the people not to go . to them, and holding out the prospect and inducement that some Would, alieedily be opened under the management of ' the teachers, and, in addition to this, "The pulpit, drum ecclesiastic" resounded against them. And, in addition to all this party op position, a most violent excitement took place in the immediate neighbourhood ofthe schools—an excitement so violent amongst the vulgar rabble that it was found necessary to call in the aid of the police before the children could get safely to the schools; and it was not till an individual had been brought before the ma gistrates at the police-office that anything like quietness was obtained. To say that under such circumstances as these the number of 250 children of protestant parents had attended them was a great triumph of the principles they had maintained. He maintained that it was a fair evidence and a decisive proof that if they would only persevere the time was not far distant when their popularity would far increase and a fair number of both denominations of christians would attend them. So far was it from the truth, that the establishment of these schools was a complete failure, that the very opposite was the truth, and it might be asserted that the effort to put them down and to excite prejudice against them had of itself completely failed. Another question of more importance was the principle—" were they or not sectarian in their essential character ?" Now, they would bear in mind that they were produced in Ireland for the very purpose of providing an education fur all the people—in which both protestant and catholic might, without any compro mise of principle, be educated; and the question simply was this—" Does that system provide a means of education and a Man of general instruction in which protestants and Roman catholics may join without any compromise?" That was the fair question ; and he maintained that these schools did present a system iu which protestants and catholics might participate without the slightest compromise. (" Hear, bear," from Mr. E. Smith.) That was the question.. Upon the question, whether the protestant children had or had not the free use of the authorised version of the Bible, such as protestants ought to require, or not? He would treat this on a simple ground. Let them first inquire what it was protestants ought to require. Surely they ought to be satisfied with the peculiar enjoyment of the scriptures. Surely protestants would not say that they had a right to make their consciences the standard of all other men. They would not say, he apprehended, that they were entitled to demand that every man should think precisely as they did ? If this were demanded—if this were a matter of conscience, and if that were called protestantism, then all compact was at an end. But he considered that this argument was not worthy of the smallest attention. Then as to the fact that protestant children had not the free use of the Bible in these schools. Facts had been declared that day which render ed it unnecessary for him to make any statement on this subject. It was a question of fact of which every man might be satisfied if he pleased. He would tell them them that the Bible was used for one hour of every day iu the week—that the schools were open, and surely protestants ought to be satisfied with this. It had been made a point against them that, in intro ducing the Bible into these schools, they had departed from the system they had professed to have adopted, mid it had been en deavoured to shut them up in a dilemma by stating that they bad not introduced the Bible, or, un the other hand, that they had not introdu c ed th e I r i s h system. He denied both these assertions. And, with respect to the system, he would maintain in opposition that it was perfectly consistent both with the on- . ginal plan presented to the nublic by Mr. Stanley, and it was the actual practice of those schools in Ireland which were now adopt ing the system and used the scriptures. Was there not a very mate rial difference between enforcing the use of the Bible and prohibit ing it? Suppose he lied a hundred children, and he was to say to them—" We do not make it a rule—we do not compel you to read the bible, but we strongly recommend it to You to read; and, if your parents are willing, facilities are provided for your reading it." He did not in that case enforce the reading of the Bible, but did he forbid it? (Hear.) The line of distinction was most obvious. This was the distinction—the Irish system did not prohibit the Bible—it (lid not forbid it, even to the catholics it was trot prohibited but by the opposition of their parents. And it was a fact, and he ventured to assert it in de. fiance of all contradiction, that if, in these corporation schools, conducted on this system, a Roman Catholic were to bring his child, and say, " I have no objection to my child reading the authorised version of the bible," there would be nothing in compatible with the system in that child mixing with the pro testant children, and reading the scriptures with them. They had a right then to say that the bible was not excluded. He trusted the principle would never be maintained in that council of forcing the reading of the scriptures. That was not protes tantism, but persecution. (Hear.) In a letter which had been addressed to that council, they had been endeavoured to be placed i n a dil emma ; on t h e one h an d , o f a b andoning the Irish system, or, on the other, of nut introducing the bible into the schools. In that letter, was a letter from Mr. Stanley, to the Duke of Lienster. There was one passage in it to which be must beg leave to draw their attention. Speaking of the Kildare Place Society, he says :—" The determination to en force in all their schools the reading of the holy scriptures, without note or comment, was undoubtedly taken with the purest motives, with the wish at once to connect religious with moral and literary education, and, at the same time, not to run the risk of wounding the peculiar feelings of any sect by cateche tical instruction, or comments which might tend to subjects of polemical controversy. But it seems to have been overlooked that the principles of the Roman Catholic church (to which, any system intended fur general diffusion throughout Ireland, the hulk of the pupils must necessarily belong) were totally at varinace with this principle; and that the indiscriminate read ing of the holy scripture, without note or comment, by children, must be peculiarly obnoxious to a church which denies, even to adults, the right of unaided private interpretation of the sacred volume with respect to the articles of religious belief- Shortly after its institution, although the society prospered and extended its operations under the fosterieg care of the legislature this vital defect began to be noticed, and the Roman Catholic clergy began to exert themselves with energy and suceess against a system to which they were on principle opposed, and which they feared might lead in its results to proselytism, even al though no such object wet e contemplated by its promoters." Now, that determination to enforce the reeding of the scrip tures was the cause of the failure of the Kildare Place Society. He says, "'The vital defect of the Kildare-place Society was the indiscrimate reading of the bible in school hours." No, the vital defect was the determination to enforce its reading. There was something apparently disingenuous in this. There was the leaving out of the subsequent argument, which constituted the very essence of the letter—the determination to enforce, not the leaving out; and, therefore, it was with a view to put an end to this state of things that the new system was adopted, and it was found• to be all that was necessary. A great stress, he was aware, was laid in this letter on the terms " school hours;" they were told that the bible was not read in "school hours;" and, taking the resolution of the council for a guide, there was some plausibility in that. Perhaps it would have been wise if the council had used such a term as "general school hours"— something to have conveyed the idea that there were other school hours—plain and simple language to convey a plain and simple idea. But they had not expected or 'prepared for the slsubtlety s h he h o t, a f tetphtuherejpr publicobosi peononents, when they saw the eff ec t th at h a d been p ro d uced by the use of the ingenious term of " school d hours." B y the cautious use of that term it passed for th e as sertion mind, deluding was not anti,us e ai d nn a dc t (o a t tell anddeceiving %u.ienig t i r c i te a l d i that fp uthb that, H r a e i s le. in❑ on He would - 1 se hood tiitna(e answered all andal thedecpeui pal pable escape, ° e f p a u d b i l r i e c e . a a A n u d d.et there was p reserved a loop-hole of because when the bible was strewn to them as taught in the schools, it served them to say—" Oh ! but it is not in the school hours." The age of pious frauds had not yet passed away, and at that rate they must not dare to say " What is in a name ?" for a name was every thing; for, although " A rose by any other name would smell as sweet," bible instruction was not of any value, unless it 'were taught in "school hours." (Loud cheers.) lie Avoid(' not detain them by such contemptible arguments. 'Phis letter concluded in a style of - denunciation. It unist con , tince every . gentleman who sat in that council, that the divine judgments were not at the disposal of the writer of it. lie ~o ppo,ett, if they were, he for one, and all who sat in that cumuli who dared to think differ ently, would fall under the writer's ban. The • re subject was too solemn to be dwelt upon; but no man could read that letter— no sensible man of sound judgment—witho u t being constrained to abhor the infamous persecution which it breathed —thus to hurl the thunderbolts of omnipotent vengeance, nut against Ihe despisers and contemners of God's holy word, but against the supporters of a system of education which came to them sanc tioned and recommended by the approbation or some. of the greatest and best men that ever adorned the church. He elm tended, then, that neither in point of fact, nor vet in point of principle, were these schools sectarian schools. He contended, that they were open to ail classes of the community, without any exception, an d without any co m p rom i se of principle; and let a man have any religion or no religion, lie was at per fect freedom to have his children educated in T hese seminaries without departing in the slightest degree f rom the prindipies he entertained. (Loud cries of bear, hear.) It was on this ground that be admired it,—this was the excellenc y and glory of that system,—that • it cut the gordian knot on a subject that intro duced a gordiau knot,—it got rid of their difficulties, and in this way,.---while it provided religious instruction for all, it forced it on hone,—it dealt with individuals in such a eia..ner, that it left every man free, and it tendered to hint, at. the tzame time, a valuable education for his children. arlit been a fact that not tine single Protestant child had entered those schools up to that hour, grounded on principle he would trot have given his vita 4 . Any arrangement of this description that may be made is to be publicly notified in the schools, in order that those Chil dren, and those only, may be present at the religious instruc tion, whose parents and gua r di ans approve of their being so. 5. The reading of the Scriptur es , e ith er i n the authorised or Donal,' version, is regarded as a religious exercise, and, as such, is to be confined to those times which are set apart for religious instruction. The same regulation is also to be observed regard ing prayer. Lord Stanley speaks.of the determination "to enforce the read ing of the Scriptures," " with out note or comment" as the v ital defect" of the Kildare- s t reet soc i ety. The Irish Board. think it wiser " to promote" " strongly recommend," and pro vide hours for the Bible to be read, When the clergy may give their own comments. Perhaps, with our national jealousy of compulsion, particularly in religious concerns, they may not be mistaken in their view of the likeliest means of promoting scriptural education. The next paragraph, like those before, is suppesiti.us—opoused to facts. I stated that certain means bad been found 'successful " infirmly imptanting religious prin ciple" in the Children of each corrupt parents. If this is not a u. in waid and spiritural change," (lo not know what is. I leave without ct,rnment both what he assumes as being neglect ed ht•cau:se not inserted in - my letter, and the consequence of 1t136. that neglect denounced again. 4 tic• schools, a s a sp e 4 tuen Or Ili% 1 i f ) oUr 9,),,i . ;/,?? 'it ~ I .sae oar 2n;nlstyrs Pan scarceittmain lain Mei,: candour and etiaree, . 'l' he , )ex t earag rapt t is al r e a dy a n s w e r e d : : v.,lf ~, :,-,•,,,:,,, ;.!,:c ;,.;,,,•ipt, is Cl')! reeo l ni,e.l. 11 1 / 4 ttb,t tvries : ,ir the selectious ase not latesolea or used as suhstitutes, but as ea- i cy,y,, t„ - , 1 i,,,n5L, Sit ,lieul ;,.,,,i,. b e c aew CtiS great rincit!fri OCU O1gC111(10 LS Or aid., To the reaeing of the Bible. As the I w ee e s . e ; s e t e ue „, e.,,„, , s eseje e , : eesie..,..„ in ",a[ salvia remeeei;Leset children are ail taught by t w heir on clergymen, apart fr u i t s the is riot reea A taited by them. Dina. though i tLe nisei adopted i 1 rest, Ido not see how one se t readin.g the Whale Bible can in- th e I r i s h sy ,t em i s the best , ! 1* all others, yet as t p he nioney iu ,11 11- 1 ” terfere with another set reading- only h a lf. Th e rev . gentleman .of these schools is taken out el theentblic purse, and Jews, and Ca asks hew religious instruction is " secured," and seems to i tholics, and Protestants, have all contrib.sled ; to take out ~ f this glory in the shame that we cannot secure the clergy doing 1 fund . b r th e su pport o f Me sehool s —the principle itself is unjust' their duty to our protestant c hild ren . If t hi s b e a subject of Aed it is this its elf that causes the anarchyand confusion that now rejoicing with him, he is welcome to it. I n th e South Corpora- exists in the go'Gi 'meat, and ought, notwithstanding the recent tion Schools we have one (lrawback to his gratulations on this mendatione—th e just recommendations that had been given 10 1 " point, for there a clergyman of the Chu rc h o f E ug l an d d oes hi s I re/torch/ relating to the s ch oo l s o/' this corporation—yet lam per duty fearlessly and zealously. We are grateful to him for his sanded yon will not pacify the inhabitants of this town—you will aseteranco, we respectfully seek the as s is t ance of o th ers , but if nee conciliate them universally, becattoe you are not niCo9llifing refused, we will endeavour to train up the protestant children the .first principle t o . which I h a v e a l rea dy alluded. ' ( I, °" in the way the parents (to whom the res p ons ibilit y l ega lly a s cr i es or . (2 ,,.„„ i0 „.., , I shall now beg leave to read the well as rightfully devolves) wi s h th em to go. Ido not wish to the a men d men t w hi c h I h ave to make on this subject :--,-- undervalue the services of the clergy, b u t if th e y s t an d aloof it s' That the Council Are most anxious that all the children of the shall he our aim nut to neglect our duty to our protestant poor in this town should \V enjoy, to the fullest exte,O, the pal'ar brethren.e may hope, with the blessing o f P rov id e nce, our mount blessings of education, and they would gladly avail labour will not be in vain, and may recollect for our encourage- themselves of the corporate funds in furtherance of this great meet, under their oppositiou, that every eff or t f o r the spread of and beneficent object, were it possible to do so without violatiuge the Bible or the education of the poor has been at first opposed the sacred rights of property, and sapping the foundation of by the ;;neat body of the clergy. The next c h arge i s w h ere I j ust i ce, b ot h mora l and divine; •but, as guardians of the public bring rhe Bible and Bridewell in opp os iti on . Th e rev . di s - purse, t hi s C ounc il can never consent, even for the attainment putant prudently states that he is ashamed to argue against of so great a public blessing, to take from funds the trust pro such a charge. The next is a person a l ma tt er , an d i s eas ily perry o f all denominations, the mean s o f Maintaining any sp . " settled. The rev. denunciator, claiming more than the infalli- tern of education Ohatever, which, in its practical effect would bility of the catholic church, judges motives, and speaks of rny be partial and exclusive in regard to the benefits it might confer having taught the Church Catechism "a s a principle of expe- on any community. They will, therefore, forthwith offer these diencv, supetseding•practially the principl es of conscience and school-rooms, at a reasonable rent, to any individual or society truth." I never saifl, as he would make it appear, that I who will engage to afford a comparatively gratuitous educe taught as truth " what I believed to be f4sehood and idolatry." tiun t o the poor children of this t own on equa ll y lib e ral I never had the pre s umption to stat e tharl thought the worship principles with thOse which 11,vt. 1.:,-.:.; reoently established by of Inv Trinitarian fellow-Christians was idolatry. In these this council in these school-rooms, ~ ,,i, . !-. the right of inspection matters I own no human controul, and seek none over others- of a committee appointed by the council to see that the The members of the council will remember that I distinctly object of diffusing education amongst the poor is attained. - stated I had heard the children their catochisms, simply My object, I hope, has been clearly understood. I say that this requiring the words of the book where I did not agree with it, Council may set a noble example of justice and upright ices anioilgst and endeavouring to enforce and illustrate it where I did. her fellow-men; and I shall he exceedingly proud if this great and My principle is, that the responsibility - rests with parents, as to noble town was the first to announce to the world as regards its the peculiar religious faiths i ll which their children are to be righteous views to all our fellow-men." educated; that my duty, as a member of a committee for the The Meyoit inquired if any one seconded Mr. Lawrence. manag,etnent of schools paid for, and belonging to, all sects, is Ilepverth's resolution ? to see that the wishes of parents ate fulfilled, and, under no No one, however, rose to second it, and the amendment con pretence whatever, to interfere with those wishes. This leaves sequently fell to the ground. a sufficiently heavy responsibility, and. appears to sue the line Mr. Councillor Leasers. begged to offer a few remarks in of conduct most consistent with my views of the weakness and support of the aineudtnent. [Mr. Lassell then proceeded to frailty of erring man. Mr. M`Neile in his closing paragraph, read a speech. which, like the previous one of Mr. leathbone's, declares his willingness to acknowledge his errors, if convinced appeared to be little attended to by the council. We give the he is wrong. Leteme ask why, previous to writing his letter, "authentic version" of this also, the manuscript of which was he did not go to the schools and learn for himself what is the sent for insertion in the second edition of the Telegraph.] "He fact respecting the schools, of which he has spoken and preach- had neither read nor heard any arguments which would induce ed so much; mid even now, as far as I know, he has only been him to vote that the schools be disposed of. On the contrary. to one of them, and not to the South School, where he might he trusted the council would not abandon the patrouAge of edu have met a pastor of his own Church, and learned from him the cation in this town, which they had e njoy e d f or near l y th ree real state of things. lie might, perhaps, ha ve satisfied hjm- centur i es. Since the year 1565 the corporation of Liverpool self and those friends he so modestly styles "the Protestant in- had contributed (a, the support of a free school until the death of tilligence" of the town of Liverpool, that their " scriptural pre- the late toaster, which happened in 181)5, and then the site of dilections" needno longer "array them in hostility" to the the school-house being wanted for the enlargement of the Blue schools. Our present concern is not, however, Geuteeinen, what Coat Hospital, the building was demolished. At that time the is the Irish plan of education, nor whether our schools are real education of the poor had not so many advocates as it has nowe Irish schools, hut what is the Liverpool Corporation plan of edit- and no steps were taken till 1825 to replaee that school with any cation? What are its schools? Sh a ll they b e cont i nue d ? If other; but owing to the gradual progress of ()Pinion the council they are continued, shall they he on the present plan ? The determined to erect the schools which are now in existence. present plan is to make religious and moral training, not teach- The exclusive constitution of the old council was a sufficient ray; our first object. To giv e the best general education, both reason for the exclusiveness of the schools; but times were . intellectual and moral, with reference to their future prospects changed. They have descended to us as trustees for apublic m in life, till the last of the sch oo l-h ours e a c h d a y, an d d evote t h at benefit—even those who oppose the syste adopted in the last hour partly to peculiar religious instruction, under their schools concede the principle, that they can no longer be exclu respective ministers; partly t o gene ral religious instruction, sive. All systems of education which are not based on religion under the teachers of th e sc h oo l s; an d th us t o ma k e t h e sc h oo l s are decried throughout the land; they are denounced from the desirable to all,—and they are desirable, and desirable by, both bench and from the pulpit, and he humbly coincided with the Catholic and Protestant. In the South School, to which sub- general voice. It was to meet this feeling:that the'lrish system committee I belong, our numbers are in the had been established. It had been stated that it had prsived Girls' school.—Protestant.. 70 abortive. He found, however, that in the report of 1834 — Catholic.... 144—T0ta1..214 [Mr. L. here read the first report of the Commissioners for Edo- Boys' school.—Protestant.. 63 (sating the Poor of Ireland.] On this report, published by order Gatholic....lsl—Total..22l of parliament, he was more disposed to rely than upon the asses- Is this a Sectarian, or exclusive school ? The sub-division of tions of individuals, who, with strong prejudices, looked at the the Provident District Society in which that school stands con- abuses which cannot but creep in rather than to the benefits tains 28 families, visited by the society; of these 15 are C a th o - which are sure to be conferred. They were told that their ma lie, 5 Protestant, 2 mixed, 6 unknown. When we consider the terials would not amalgamate—that was a strong word—they large proportion of our poor population, which is (hipbone, and associated. They.lead in the South School 130 protestants and the large provision which is made for Protestaut education, we 300 catholics associated together in the perusal of the scripture must admit we have our full share of Protestants, notwithstand- lessons as ffirnished by the board. He found in this repott— ing the unscrupulous clamour, by which it was sought to deter 'These selections are offered, not as a substitute for the sacred them from entering our schools. They have been called Ca- volume itself, but as an introduction to it, in the hope of their thnlic Schools. 'The Committee, the masters and mistresses, are leading to a more general and profitable perusal of the Word of all Protestant, and a considerable proportion of the scholars. God. The passages introduced have been chosen, not as being It is true, that the Catholic children receive instruction front -of more importance than the rest of the Scriptures, but merely their own ministers during one hour of the day. Does this c o n- as appearing to be mast level to the understandings of children stitute them Catholic sc h oo l s ? What is the religious instruc- and youth at school, and also best fitted to be read under the tion given ? Again, I must sp ea k f ro m th e . school .I know best. directions of teachers not necessarily qualified, and certainly First, the Bible is' read by all Prot es t a nts, who can read every not recognized, as teachers of religion; no passage has either day in the authorised version, either to the Rev. Mr. Aspluall, been introduced or omitted under the influence of any porticos to a visitor, or to a teacher. Mr. Aspinall dessetes the first hair lar view of christianity, doctrinal or practical. hour to the girls, the second half to the boys, every day. The 'Besides these works on the ordinary subjects of education, other half hour is devoted to catechism, explanation of the col- we have compiled and printed two numbers of a series of les lect, hearing it and the scriptures committed to memory, in- suns from the holy Scriptures, one from the Old, and the other struction in eastern manners, customs, &c., &c. The younger from the New 'Testament; and we propose to go on adding to protestants have the same religious instruction in substance, them, until we complete a copious abstract of the narrative varied iu manner according to their age. The catholics are, at parts of the Sacred Volume, interspersed with suitable pass the same time, in a different part of the room, receiving from ag e s from the peetical and didactic parts of it. We proceed on their ministers instruction iu the Douay version of the bible or the undertaking will ; . iarfect unaniznity, and anticipate, from catechism, or preparing for him under their own monitors ; or the general circulation of the work, the best results.' else are joining in the general religious instruction under the Surely it was anticipating an evil which was not likely to teachers of the school. 'Ut l ey e n d by s inging a hymn, in which happen,—that the little children would imbibe evil from read children, teachers, and minister s ofall denominations unite. In inc such lessons as those which had obtained the sanction of the confirmation of what I have stat e d, I b ee leave to read a note I thre t e Christian denominations, It had been so often stated that have received from the Rev. James Lpinall, in reply to one the Bible was read, that it was not necessary now f or hi m t o re which I addressed to him : peat it. A very prejudiced man once asked if any good thing 'Mr DEAR SIR,---In your note of yesterday you ask me to could come out of Nazareth; and he was invited to come and state to you, first, generally what portions of the scripture the . see, and examine the pupils for yourselves as to their Bible protestant children have read with me at the South Corporation knowledge. He did not mean to say that this was the hest pos- Schools, and secondly, to particularize what portion of the same sible system that might be devised ; but it came to them under they have read, day by day, during the last week. the satiation of high authority, and let them have time to proee • With regard to the first of these points, the children have whether it would answer their wishes or not. The applications gone throulla with me the gospel according to St. Luke, and for admission to the South School, notwithstanding all opposi that according to St. J o h n , an d a l so t h e b oo k o f t h e Acts o f the tion, were in the r a ti o o f a b out twenty per week, and it would Apostles. They are now occupied in reading the book of Gene- soon be filled; and he was confident that any imaginary evil sis. of which they have nearly reached the close. • was more than counterbalanced by the positive "good which was ' With regard to your secon d ques ti on , t h e l as t week's reading obtained. Were the C ounc il, h e as k e d , aware whet these ha s been as follows :—On Monday, the 41st chapter of Genesis; schools cost? Let them not then throw away . 1144 V -sate d !, on Tuesday the 42d ; on Wednesday the 411; on Thursday the which were au honour to the town. Grant to their committees , 44th; on Friday the 45th. It may be as well to add, thilt on their confidence for another year, and give them a fair chance Monday, in addition to the scripture reading, they repeat and o f success. If the schools became aft er a ll exc l us i ve, a l ter t h e are examined as to their underst a ndin g °f oi e collect of th e pre - plan. He entreated the Council not to yield to the clamour vious Sunday. On the other days they also read a portion of which had been raised, but steadily to persevere in the indepen the church catechism, or read in a little work entitled ''l'he dent course they had adopted, and the opposition would gradu manners and customs of the Jews,' which is of the greatest use ally subside. in enabling them to understand many passages in the bible, the Mr. WALSISLEY said, after havingtaken much personal inter whole point and force of which depend on a thorough eompre- est in the management of these schools, lam not eontent, when hensiou of these subjects. they are concerned, to give a silent vote, especially as I consider Of course, the Scripture reading with me, to which I ha ve t h e resu l t of Your deliberations on the subject this (lay to be of the referred above, is entirely out of our authorized version of the utmost importauce to the rising generation. • Before coming to Bible. I would also have it understood, that when I talk of the anv conclusion, it may be well to advert to the principle by children reading such and such portions of Scripture, Ido not which the Council (wills the exception of seven of its members) limit the phrase to mere reading. I inteud it to signify that it is a fete months ago, came to the unanimous determination of explained to them as they go on, while they are examined as to throwing Olsen the Corporation Schools for the education of the the proficiency which they have made, anti required to compare children of the poorer ,classes, and to bear in mind the injury one passage with another, and to acquaint themselves most that would be inflicted on•so great a number of our fellovr-crea thoroughly with its contents, historical, doctrinal, anti moral. tures, by again permitting their portals to be closed against par- It may not perhaps be forme to say so; but Ido hope and think titular sects. If I rightly understood your wishes, and I believe I perceive in the children a manifest and decided improvement they were in accordance with my own, these schools being public in their acquaintance with and understanding of the Scriptures; property, were to be applied in the manner best calculated to so much so, indeed, that I cannot help fancying that it would conduce to the general good ; to the purpose of giving those amply satisfy even those who are now the loud es t in their oppo- n - ho were otherwise unable to obtain them (without distinction sition to the schools, could they happily be induced to visit them, of sect or party) the inestimable blessings of educatiou ; none and calmly and dispassionately exam i n e an d i nqu i re i nto w h a t were to b e excluded. I would ask had any been excluded ? has been accomplished in bestowing on th e c hi l d ren that reli- Have not your wishes been carried fully and literally into effect? gions and scriptural instruction of which they profess themselves Are there not at this moment children of various religious -de to be the eager and zealous champions.—E ver b e li e ve me to be nominations receiving those instructions which are calculated ' most truly yours, ' JAMES ASPINALL• to snatch them from the paths of vice, and lead them into those `Abercrombie-square, Nov. 22, 1836.' of virtue? There are now in these schools 1300 children, mostly I can only, in conclusion, again express the earnest wish, that of the very lowest order, and, if we may judge of the future by in th e moral and religious education of the people at least party the experience of the past, the change that has taken place zeal or religious bigotry may not i n t er f ere. Th e fi e ld is sad- within the la s t f ew mon th s, th e general improvement in the cfi ie u tly wide to allow room for all; the results hitherto have morals and behaviour of the children, augur a benefit to societal , 1 been sufficiently discouraging to make - the most presumptuous equal to the most sanguine expectations. To your decision we diffident in asserting that the way has yet been discovered in nilist hour, but consider, I entreat you, the result. of selling these education to effect the religious and moral elevation of the peo- schools; it will be again to expose to vice and ignorance a great pi e; yet no one will deny . the all-importance of such a disco- number of these poor children, whose hopes and expectations very. Those who are pioneers in this work in simplicity and you have been pleased to raise to better things. I trust you sincerity are entitled to encouragement, and even if they fail, will riot blast these hopes, these reasonable expectations of the must be useful as a warning to others." He was very much effect s of christian charity. Sow not again the seeds of disunion obliged to them for the kindness with which they had listened and hatred amongst those whom we have, endea youred to teach to this, and. he begged to second Mr. Blackburn's amendment. to love and respect- each other! liemeniter that he who re- Mr. Councillor LAWRENCE HEYWORTH spoke as follows : tards the progress of intellect countenances crime, and is him: Mr. Mayor and gent/men, though I have to pr o p ose an amendm en t self the greatest of criminals to a state ! Who are the com as°, and also on the original motion, as well as on all tire amend- plainants against the system adopted ? Those who are rich in ments that are passed; yet I feel that in doing to I would not this world's goods! Those who have numerous schools at their trespass for a moment on the time of the council, or disturb the good command ! Those who for years have, for the benefit of one understanding which I hope prevails amongst the erajority er . she gen- sect, exacted th e unwilling tribute from every other denomina t/emen in this council with r e gar d t o th ee schools, w holly impres se d Lion ! T hose who have been the loudest in their revilings as they are that they are most excellent in their nature. If I h a d ' against th e ine ' eorance o f th e ir Roman catholic brethren, -and the powers of oratory of th e areates t an d most excellen t men, I w h o should have' been the first to rejoice in the fact of the would devote those powers to speak highly of the s e sc h o ols. l am sacred volume being introduced amongst them through the me happy to have heard a most excellent account el them from our diuna of these schools. Should political feelings or fear of losing worthy friend Mr. Blackburn. He has been. eloquent on the sub- sonic popularity have any effect upon you, be assur e d th e y ar e ject, Out he has not u tt ere d one wor d i n praise of these schools in d e l us i ve! D o you expect any abatement of -- hostility by re which Ido not concur to the very fullest extent. It is my firm be- tracing your steps ? If so, you will be lamentably disappointed ; lief that there never were schools instituted, either in this or any the opponents of reform will not hate you less, and the true otter country, which were destined in their nature to produce so friends of liberty will despise you. You will throw another . much general good effect as these schools are. Bursting as every powerful engine into the hands of the enemies to reform, and word y*.tifr, Blackburn was with zeal on this subject, I say, if t you will blast the brightest hopes of the advocates of civil and . possessed language still more potent, I would use it with full eject religious liberty. to maintain the importance of these schools, as they now exist. I Mr. Councillor EGERTON Seim said, as the representative would say more .if it were only io convince the gentlemen. here how of a large ward, comprising a neat body of the poorer inhabi deeply 1 ant enamoured of these schools. Bitt asT7tatie'an amend- tants of the town, he felt deeply interested in this question.— meet to propose, 1 s h a ll re f ra i n. Th ere may b e good of every kind From what he had heard he had very confident anticipations and of every character. But the object is not merelytehave good— that the result would be satisfactory. The question they were we ought to have good to begin 'with—we ought to have good in its islet to consider was one of very great importance. In the first legitimate principle—in its foundations of justice it ought to carry place, it was important to the Council, as regarded.theit own- Out.ihe good, not only to the present generation, but to generations character and consistency; and, in the next place, it was one of mankind yet t o be born . and y. t h e sc h oo l s he not founded on the o f th e mo st vit a l i m p or t ance t o numbers of poor children in th e solid b as i s eljustice, it w ill—th e object we contemplate will be dif- town,—the children of about 60,000 inhabitants ! who, if not. ferent to this view, and will, in time, be co me a nuisance, and, per- brought to some school of religious and moral education, would traps, a preiudice to society. There is a mode of conveying instruc- become pests to society: and these persons weee of a class who tien which is countenanced by revelation itself ---there is a mode of could not afford to pay any thing, even the moderate pittance doing it which comes home to every moral feeling; and I regret proposed by Mr. Lawrence Heyworth. In the next place the that this is the only omission that my learned friend. Mr. Black- subject was of importance collaterally. The cry which had burn, has left out in his powerful argument on these schools. It is been raised against the schools was not confined to Liverpool. the voluntary principle. And if th a t bo o k, the Bible, be of any It was part of a system to bring the municipal act, and those use at all, it is of me in directly us in a ll the pursuits of life in who supported it into contempt. It had been assumed in that which we engage. Now, it haebeen clearly shown by every man room that the public voice was against them. He denied it,--- that has spoke n on this su bj ec t t o -d a y, th a t religion is intimately he onlywishedaoild tai i nty h e it er to leputatvon feltthet i e t s h t i s and, nuty , as if h t e h e had eventsaid .h b a e d - - - interwoven with the instruction we cast communicate to ou r f e ll ow s f o re, he should creatures. There is not an individual who has addressed us this made it necessary, to move that a month be allowed, to allow [lay t ee o e os not thi s combi n ed object in view. Now, as we are all the public mind to speak on the subject. (Hear, sad cheers.) Bible Christians, it behoves us therefore to look at these rules u•hich He had happened to be present at a meetipg,—and he was are laid down in the Scriptures for the regulation of our fellow- prou d t o say—a meeting of an incipient Operative Reform As nien. If we do not this—if we set the Bible aside, and adopt our sociation, and had heard souse very intellignnt speakers allude own opinions, in-stead of the Bible as our guide, we then make ato the subject, and lie was convinced if th e y c anv asse d th e town, very serious departure from religion itself. 1 would point out th e they would timid nine-tenths of the intelligent part of it in fa passages whieh relate to this in the Bible. In the P en t a t euc h your of the system they were supporting. it would be exceed there is not an instance in which the voluntary principle i s not a d- ingly wrong in him to attribute unworthy or unbecoming mo vised, by which mean s k nou d e d gewas to he obtained. That lair- oy es to, such men as Messrs. Cropper. He knew them to be /page runs through the wh o l e of th e L ev itical law. Thi s i s the excellent men in the distribution of their wealth, with which it religious part of the subject. But there is amoral part.. W e are had pleased God to bless them.; but he was sorry for a moment to consider that the fund s th a t su pp or t these schools are drawn from to find them going in the train of a man who called himself a the purees el every deno m ination of Christians. In Liverpool the bosom friend of the forger M'Ghee. (Hear.) It was a political corporate funds cannot be spent to favour anti party. Perhaps manceuvre—nothing more. The system of selections they de gentlemen would tell you they a re not exclusive, because children cried was sanctioned by a Protestant Archbishop—a very eau: go to these schools—th ere newt man—sanctioned by the Duke of Wellington, Peel, and et' every denomination of Christians can is no one prohibited. A bw , I k n ow n o school that has ever existed Stanley And gentlemen who said that this system was suitable n yet that had not th e same a d eam t a ges and privileges ill. this respect. for Ireland, and not for lingland, made a most strange a schools prohibited and prevented nouncement. It was like saying that these persons had lent I never heard' that the Catholic Protestants fr o m a tt en di ng them, though they were so; or that themselves to a compromise of Christianity, and that they had.. l'retes'ant schools prevented and prohibited the children. of Catho lics because they were so. I never heard of an exclusive school. E al t l) g w la e n d d a . s 'll t e esa wis in he l d re to lal s l a d e " ' but by . h sn ic m h e w th e i s ng no a t b t n it u f t 'cir sc P r r i o p t t e n s r t e an re tsi 4 a What I now un d ers t an d f rom an e xclusive school is, where it does i n lie would state that there was more Scripture reading not prohibit children by the authoritY , He took them to th i e he 7;s a y:i i„ a n / t i s ee f, ti v ia m t i under this than under any former system. He had himself been exists in the breasts of parents l ",ic h p res en ts, ,d, l brought up under a very orthodox parson. eeedze„, their c hild,.,,, t o the selseets. if buy ' point nut this de- i Church twice on a Sunday ; but on no other day 'n every attempt to feet? Because it is universal i . - i the Bible in the schools. The ltev. .Mr Monk, who was now at all, while Miss- . tiger for the public in the sn.eans y applying money w hi c h 1 , left in figuring in public, never introduced the Bible with it-be ~ . / r is e s • and it cannot be said ; without doing injus- . for of the Royal Institution. He had been taxed . , would he bear IttiSt 10 irtlhrla h„ dies ; granted bring;Bibles to school, • /ed from our common ' , attire, u.hether 1 look at this , lie knew that people had been desired to :ice to parties, by !hose who are left in trust of p u bli c prop ,- ay . . am l''''' e " ' • brin g in g ,forward tie I never denied it—and ha took it for that it eas . true. „„,„ee se; beginn i ng la , e reco ge Won of this its order to defeat the argument he h was then a 4 been use of. that he had no occasion to as soil makinghe h ti,, ,ii.'ret there (f . the po!ti , :itioi` tilbes -:).!,, parti es h , lding a digerent told by a master not its the s i t . -I look (0 1-eland I see 'One person had brought a Bible to t t a e t e prite,inle el doing justice to al/ oarties 7 . ee ,,, e from oarselees, ansisry ~c 1e!.1, c 7,1 :his reaw..l. V' I 10-i: bring it—they did not use it as a school-book, and his parents mwat Bibl e The stithu