The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1838-05-04 00:00:00

~'Niav 4,18.3 r; . . ' not Itittlo6 , llaLmotives were, awl therefore they. had better say the church was concerne d there +lase great desire a lw a y s man bathing about them. - ' I • fested on the part of churchm en t o put their hauls into ill. , pot i t. , ~.„1 , . The arasiatliatenkwas then agreed t o . . 1 t h in of tne waggoner, wnu appealed fur'assistance to ii,ocule, M THE CORPORATION CH CRCH ES. , I without a pplyi ng hi s owe shoulder to the wheel. Ctmucillor 110 n -rots said the question, he understood, was 1 The Ata you then put the question, when ou a divisiea the,. that the Fula osed nee Committee be confirmed. - As an amendment appeared— to that he,pruip" that they b e con fi rme d w i t h t h e excep- i For Mr. Bolton's a men d ment , I I . .. tien oflhat part which relates to the erection' of a gallery in St. I Against it • . - ~.. Arkhael' s Church." And bef o r e h e en t ere d on t h at part o f the ~.i.r I:;oltiess h e w ou ld request the Town-clerk to read the report of ' ..,_ Majority I.,;,,_the'Seb-Conunittee of th e • Finance C omm i ttee, male in March, The following wa s th e division : t, , 18. report was agreed to unanimously in the beginning For Mr.. Bolnin's amendment, Messrs. Thornhill, Harvey 0 , t el April following. I Frankland, B o lt on , P r i estley, Lassen, Morecroft, U. Holt, 'l', 'ltheTow-cr.uRK read the minutes as desired, by whi c h it 1 Holt, Fiem e and Robinson.' Against the amendment—Messrs, t :, ! : ~ fl,ppeared,that the committee had restricted themselves to such J. Holmes, Houghton, Preston, Ifawd on , 11. Holmes, J. Me1,,,..„.-. ,,,..„.-. expenditure as they were legally bound to tisburse, by recom- ' tor, Birch, W oo l r i g h t, H . H ornby, J. Lawrence, Cooper H. fr , tueudi ng t h at i n future the expenditure should be confined to i Lawrence, Wood, Earle, Cog,etti,- Alason, Seger, Lei g h, J. • :the'strietly legal charge s . l Smith, U. H. Lawr e n ce , J or d an, Pl att, Currie, Ramsdetb Mr, Councillor BOLTON,—:vow sir, that resolution having . Duncan, Leathoin, Jones, B e nn, E vans , M oon, B arc l ay, a nt been . app rove d unan i mously by the council! beg to ask whether the Mayor.—Absent, Messrs. J. lleyworth, D. Hodgson. ~,,,,, the etpendititie for a ga ll ery f or St. Michael's church, which . Logan Shawl Balton, Sands, Walmsley, Bright, Bibby, C will be £205, ca n b e str i ct l y entered into by the council. 1 ask *, Lawrence, Brocklebank, Carson, Higgins, Blackburn, J your opinion as the.town-clerk. - I Cropper, Shi e l, B oo th , Hornby, Brown, Bulley, and C. Hey ''• The TOWN-cei• it K said in considering that question he should I worth. look at it in two : ways.,. The _fi rst quest i on would be, was this I -- -- expenditure advisable with reference to the pecuniary interests - - of the 4oniacil in.the pew rents arising from that church ? It was nut for him to come. to a conclusion upon any question of fact as to whether or not this expenditure was advisable with reference to the pecuniary. interests of the corporation. if , • :the committee should have come to the conclusion that, with re :•• rerence to its pecuniary interests, treating -the descrip ,'-'tihn. of property in the pews as they would treat any other productive property of the corporation, that it was advisable "'"- that this pecuniary.expense should be entered into, he•appre , hended according to the decision of the question he made, such 6 '`'-'etperiditure . was justifiable on the part of the council. If the. cmuotittee .had- come to an oppo s it e conc l us i on, then, of •,, . - cou.isd, - ,,it'avolild be an expenditure not justifiable. With regard to the text consideration, how far this expenditure, in the dis l" ,cretion of the council ought to be incurred, wi t h re f erence to the c -• 1 public.. benefit of the inhabitants, it was a question which must s `' -be - determined by the discretionary power of the council. In e " his opinion it would be expenditure for the public benefit of the -inhabitants, and that consequently the c ounc il h a d t h e power to ' . determinediatthe expense should be lectured or not. t ' Mr. Councillor Bob•rtiN said the subject he wished to bring • before the corporation was one; f great importance, and before :decided upon, it would be well to weigh the consequences to - which the decision of the Town -clerk might lead. HeOttain tained that under the municipal act, under the provision's of . Which they.sat there, every individual in the town was put on . . terms of perfect equality—there was-no distinction made in the .., lighting of the streets, and the watching of their property by the police.,-and many other obj*ts, all of , uwhich were of a, 'common nature and without reference to sect or party. The •• -law referred:only to the general good of the borough and its inhabitants, andhe asked whether the expenditure now called . for was for the general good ? He looked around there and he T• sawu variety' of persons who entertained different beliefs; the' mayor, who attended one place of worship, Alr.•ShieFit second, , Mr. Blackburn „a• third, Mr. Sandi a' fourth, Mr. liolutea a fiftliin fact •he believed there were not less than eightaletio-: ininationsof Christians composing. the council ; and he asked, could this. expenditure he justified for the general good? No, 'hesaid - itwaifor the parti c ul ar goo d o f one of : these ' sects. In the. outlay in wharfs or houses or warehouses they always looked fur coMpeusationin rents, But in this instance this would not ' Ise the case, ''They might be vaned upon to repair the church, but this w•V not a repair, but. the. adding of a new gallery, an' •• enlareemeet'; and if they could add- a gallery, he did hot see e, • why they should not add a wing too; and other sects, with equal jestice,anigiitt'ome andask. for :accommodation for their chil dren: Hatt 'the different. denominations of Christians from chapel's carne to that corporation for -assistance.? Why should the church he the ouly_persons coming with - the begging - box? The . established church had cost.that borough nut less than El 5, 00 0 . a year, surely that .was bounty enough for a particular sect in religion'? With regard to the c h urc h i n quest i on, he believed- en an .average its-outlay for the last seven years was' £289 and: ifs ineoMe only £5lO. .the last account its income wits only £395. from pew rents;•and £4O. for sale of graves, and he•inttintained that this further expenditure asked was most un • - .1 jastilialtte as 'an investment which could not be maintained on any pi inciple whatever; for, in addition to the disbursement, there- would be feur corporate .pews :destroyed, which now brou g ht in an annual rental.' If it were acceded to, he belie ve d there Was to be an application f rom S t . Th omas ' s Church tor • • linin , 4-the pews, - which was another stroke on the wedge, and he thought it his duty, as far as possible, to prevent the extension of these pectitiar priyileges— He- understood there were about 3 94 elciarcii :- and accoMniodation was wanted for 600 or 8(0. Mr. Pbaya• said they nnly: wanted accotninielatidn• for 30U. Mr. 1 - 16f.taN,•=•-- Is it an additional 390? Mr, Pi.. f air.l" , :ii,; for,4/. imly. .. Nlr. Ishii ti wasaccommodat inn for 300 now. Ilil harli4llie Petition, and he extracted from it that there was nitiv .. .Maanninodatien.for 3',X), and the fair inference vvas : that iliC.efonirnotla tion .waS.Walated fer.3oo more. If that were so, it was'aloret.ttiki' their average- number, for there was accoin -- intalatitirLiti - i,be deighbourhood, in St. Thomas's Church ; lint if they had - more than they could acetemnodate at St. Michael's, be had ric,;•`do.shttheyanight have sufficient a t St. Th omas ' s on easy terria.- - Ahtl Why,:atnduuder what pretext did they seek this'aiiiney When they Might have the-mecessary room elsewhere? fle Thought this applicatiun an additional insult. to the other , setae in tha toan. When that subject was fist brought before 'the council it was referred, to the Finance Committee, and in that comielitee, out of deliCacy to the Church Expenditure Com mittee, fie bad requested it might be referred to that committee without comment: Ills reason fur that was that shortly after the resolatitin'Whi;e : h the Town-clerk had read, he, at consider '-atile..trouftlitu*Oared a very valuable report for the guidance •tif the 'ciiiiittX in film re expenditure for the churches. That re port was cpupictereci as the guide of the Church Expenditure Ciimmitieg.'.`Oe might say that the suggestion of the Church `.. E a penditureCommittee originated' with himself, at all events •he had promoted it and move-1 it, and his object was that that eernmittee should be.compOsed of churchmen, and that that re pert of the Town-clerk should, be their guide. Ile submitted that this desire on the part of the committee to erect the gallery in questiou was at veriance- with that•report. The learns used as: to the church in question in the report were obligatory as far as repairs; now this was not &repairing, it was an eten s. sion i taust lie thought itanight to. be -resisted. • Alt. Councilltst.MortEcitoaT setlontled`the motion: ' Mr. Councillor PLATT disclaimed altogether what Mr. Bolton 'ealled ""a wedge." The question resolved itself into this; iihtitilul the ineitibera of tne council sustain the interests of the corporation in that church ?. About 300 children had been in the habit ef going there from a school in Parr-street. Stapes eats .agn, touch to thetr credit, the Messrs. Yates established a school in Staunton-street for children of all denominatiohs, front whence scholars were taken 'Io their respective places of Wor ship; and.he asked Whether accommodation should not be pro ..v.ideul for thenr withoitt_inenininoding the congregatien, some of Whom had removed to' other places in consequence of the r inisituee:created by the children. -They merely wished to afford 'AdcomMortation for the Children, without any desire to introduce Ilie.*' wedge'," which was an intention, that he.disclaimed.• He therefiUe thought the expenditure for the gallery was quite tie •cessary,te sustain the interest they had in that church. Mr. COGLAN felt gr ea t re l uctance i n • differing- front some tlentlemen on •that ! tiubject. He, however, felt with them that by the•municipal law all were placed iin the same fasting, 9ti a any.attenipt were tnade to elevate one party at the expense of "other, he would as cordially oppose it as did the gentlemeo to whom he alluded... But that was net a question of the elevation of one class of Christians a6'ove mon het( it was a question to be ''onsidered as effecting property belonging to the corporati on , it. was a c orporat i on church which had been erected before the municipal law,• with its "admirable provisions," became the law of the l an d . I t h ad exclusive privileges, and they had not the Wer to alter • them. •The simple question in his view was, whether, as a corporation edifice, wanting accommodation for a ' 4 eeat , /riass- of - the• putilic,.they were justified in giiing to that eii . p e nse. If i t were a ,Catholic place of wo rs hip, or even an U nitarian one,. or a place:of worship for that " much repudiated floss called Quakers" from whom one gentleman (looking at the Mayor) might think . himself happily released—if it were freer any one of these dettominatiens of Christians, he should sincerely support - snch a proposition, if the children could be thereby better educated and made better members of society. It . . appeared, th a t i n th e c h urc h t h ere was not accommodation '''r the children; anti they annoyed the congregation connected with it. If the .opinion. of Abe: Town : clerk. were as he thought it xvas,.a fair vie s of it, they were net restricted from expendi ture for such an object, if it were fur the pecuniary advantage of th.e;corporatinii, which he thought it was—and if it were for t he advantag,e.of the public, whi c h- h e conten d ed it Iseult! be. s oiliat h e could see no impropriety in it, or any exaltation of o ne'' sect" tit the expense of another. But he hoped a higher motive than pounds, shidings, and pence, would influence them. boundc er t a i n l y thou.lit, as Members of the council, th e y w ere ° Duna to keep the church in gOod repair, they could not close the doors; and so lung as the duerswereepen. they were bound to furnish that accommodation which the public required. Mr. Councillor HOLT imagined they w ere no t at liberty to Iptlidge iii motions against- the municipal act. He contended, 'fiat the expendittriewas not within the meaning of the muni "tpal act, unless it could be shown to he advantageous to the f i o rporation, estate, which he. did not think it would be, and therefore. he should vote with Mr. Bolton. - ' - M r. Cuttntk considered the church as the properly of the ( . :I potation, and they h a d h eart ! from Mr. B o l ton th at its in (.,nue was not equal t o it s expenditure. They. feigned that th e. M. convenienc e which the . eungregatiiin experienced from the !Tattering about or child ren was so great that that s mall incoit i e 'night be still f urt h er reduced; arid it, was thenglit -that the '' ..r rection of a gallery f ur th e c hild ren would prevent that tle eitse anal probably increase the. income., It was on that gntl alone 't hat the expenditur e had been recommended L e t 1-t rou he higher grounds spoken of by Mr. Coglan be- kept to -them :.:4(i:ii'es :. they all felt them and had them. All the long speeches, r, eY had had .the pleasere.aftheaiing s Uwe-Air. Ittelion•wereott ttieral principles, a b out w hi c h there was nu doubt. -- Nobody ' 4 'l arty doubt that th e mun i c i pa l . act di d not allow any dis i'lgoctinn of sect. It aTason,the ground of its being likely to be efit the corporate este' e albite that the grant had beeu' recem uew-led by, the Church Expenditure Ceimnittee. . ()ti l l *. Cie:m . 4,o[m. 1 / 1 0.;tviiiy had never looked at thecpiestfon ;,_ e't tli'airbe e °fa pecuniary nature affecting the corporate t '' l ` l Jet •atitnitit, as Mr. Belton insisted,-the giving an undue ad , i ntage In brie sect over another, I-Fe was satisfied that, the ir e ilitl u tffilif'_ihe church Would diminish .if..the annoyetice of, 4tu w Qiill/rel i Was not removed. lie thought they were intik-Mg ii,eßgllrvi inattor or a paltry affair; the interest of the suni.re ?'rett^w,u!,l amount:to .f.:B ss. per annum; if by the erection 'of ~._t e l'..tillery they could ,ugly let 4 (Sr 5 additional pews, that 17,,itild increase their receifits by £24 or £25 per-annum. Since t% 11. emitted had. last met he had b een told by the cle rg y m e n „.t trgentterria6:"' had-given up i i is p ew c in or e sequencof the :' lt ;ati te of the children . being sc a tt ere d a b out the church as present. The erection Of a gallery was a matter tit' pecu ,i'rY interest, aud on that ground only he recommended and s.l.,Luld support it. to :lr- Councillor Henry LA WItENCE would not add anything ia, s 4T .hat had been last' stated, or to the eloquence of Mr. Cog- I, "• . As to the " wedge" mentioned by Mr. Bolton, be only I .;:i 4 w •gett . t o assure :him that the apnlication for lining the i, , s of St. Thomas's church had been at once refused as a Iliter with which they haul nothing to do. %I'l...Alderman Evasis: then said, that on a late occasion he i ,,. voted against such a 'motion as that,ltit he should vote in by OP' of the present motion, and his reasons were those urged 'r. Currie • dwhit had taken the - sameviews. If % s a e ~ an others ev er the church hold a greater number than at present, they he ll(' "lore likely to get a greater value out of it, and he appre riew, ed that ibat would be the case. He wished to know if the L r en's had ever been more than they were now ? za,,, , ;% . Councillor PLATT belieied the pew rents had been rather Ai r. - ii i , t _ c ouneillor MELLO!: wished to say one word on the cities ',hiltilt :Appeared to him, and always had done whenever this 13,d, ' , P xPenditure question was brought forward. that 11 r. ~,,,,eiri_ittl.ninueul under one . grand error7of nut distineuishing thu s ' l ',". l iese,ehitrche s which belonged to the corporation, and (rant , loch did riot.. If any application were made Its them th e , ~a 1.7 church in which they had no interest, he should resist !ilh'rea i l.-`.P,g • ' 4 ' motiey.as much as Air. Bolton. But be con- . it' '."-- i i- ,4 4o..,Meatqy a que.dion between landlord and tenant. 'h s ~t - 40 "C3106.0fietors.of-the church, and they Were justifies! 6 14 1 , P tSi l Aitstteif 41.setarti» of money that was demanded. . . hp ja 'n ) )4 rF4 .l . , syttltilly replied. •., He opposed the resolution of lengttra-ittee;,iteraitse amongst othei reasons, when IMPROVEMENT OF TEMPLE-COURT. Mr. W. Eatit.E,jun. t then ,rose to m ove a third amendmen, on the proceedin gs o f the finance committee; but before he did so, he expressed a hope that the gallery, which was the subject of the last division, would be considered as intended for the ac commodation of the children belonging to the church only, and that others would not be allowed to come and annoy the coagre gation. (Heat, hear.) He wished to make some observations with respect to a great improvement which was suggested, and which the finance committee, following the same parsimonious policy which marked their predecessors, and which he had hoped was at an end, had determined not to make. He spoke with respect to an improvement in Temple -court. The advantage this town possessed over others, was in its having a large purse to enable them to make improvements. without calling upon individuals who would not do it. He had observed fifteen carts loading and unloading at TemPle court that morning—a retail wholesale trade, if he might so speak, was there carried on in sugar, coffee, and other articles, and the place was ill-adapted for the extent of business done, and he believed, in consequence, several accidents had happened there. (Me. Platt.—Two within six montl.s.) Then there must have been more, for he knew one man had been killed. The sum of £2,000 or £3,000 ens a paltry consideration for a corporation like that; only look at the great improvements that had been neglected for £2,000 or £3,000; "the building in which they were then sitting had been allowed to stand lobsided, when £2,000 or £3,000 pounds would have set it right. (Mr. H. Holmes.— £3OO, sir.) The improvement of the neighbourhood to which he alluded would give a good street from Temple -street to Dale street,.and to Dale-streekit would be a great improvement, be cause, at present, its buildings were not in a line. He knew not, nor cared not, whether his motion was seconded, but he would move that "the improvement in Temple -court be not abandoned, but referred for farther consideration." M r.' Councillor PLATT seconded the motion. Mr. Alderman ltontissoN supported the motion. lle did not think there was an improvement more wanted in the town. Mr. Councillor CURRIE then said he was sorry to oppose what might be considered a public improvement, but they must look to where the money was .to come from. His friend, the member for Abercromby Ward, had said this would improve Dale-street, he did not think they could improve it, (oh!) for whatever sum they might expend they would never make Dale -street look handsome. With respect to Temple-street, it was no great thoroughfare; (oh!) to prevent that, North John street had been widened. He was of opinion too that there were many objects of greater importance which demanded their attention, and he hoped the council would not be led away into what he could not but consider as an unjustifiable expenditure. Mr. Councillor EARLE was sorry to hear that from his friend Currie, who had always been a supporter of liberal views. Mr. Couticillor CUURIE said he had always opposed that mo tion, which had been so often brought forward by Mr. Earle. Mr. Councillor EARLE said that there was a vast number of warehouses in Temple-street, coffee-roasting and tobaCco houses—it was a great place of business, and, as some altera tions mere now being made, the opportunity would be lost if the • improvements were not now effected. But it was perfectly con temptible, for the sake of £2OOO or £3OOO, nut to do away with I a great nuisance. Mr. Councillor Cuttattz.—Apply it to the body in general; ,not to the individual. Mr. Councillor EARIA.-I am speaking of the body. The MAvott then put. the amendment, when the numbers were— For Mr. Earle's amendment. Against it • Majority T . The following was the division:— For the Ainendment.—Messrs. R. Houghton, E. Harvey, W. Preston, C. Rawdon,.B. Frankland, H. Hoboes, J. Mellor, J. Priestley, J. Cooper, J. N. Wood, W. Earle, jun., T. Coglan, J. Mason, d. S. Leigh, J. Smith, G. H. Lawrence; F. Jordan, J. Platt, G. Ramsdell. Aldermen T. Leathom, G. Robinson, and the Mayor. Against the Amendment.—Messrs. J. Holmes, W. Thornhill, T. Bolton, C. Birch, J. Wooßright, H. Horuhy,• J. Lawrence, H. Lawrence, W. Lassell, T. Morecroft, E. Segar, W. W. Currie, W. M. Duncan. Aldermen G. Holt, C. H. Jones, Benn, E. Evans, T. Holt, J. Moon, W. I'. Freme, and 'l'. B. Barclay. 'the proceedings of the Finance Committee were then con• firmed. LEASES COMMITTEE, AND IMP ROVEMENT COMMITTEE. The pro( ceilings of these committees were confirmed. WATCH COMMITTEE. The committee did not recommend that a fresh van should be obtained for conveying separately the male and female prisoners from the different Bridewell's, as it would cost about £2OO. They strongly recommended the division, and as an experiment recommended that a partition be made in the present van, which would cost about £B. The following letter was read, from the Town-clerk to Messrs. Lo tides and Robinson, the Vestry clerks, on the subject of the rating of the corporation estate to the poor. THE TOWN-CLERK'S LETTER TO MESSRS. LOWNDES AND ROBINSON " Town-hall, sth April, 1838. " DENik.Sus,—l beg again to call your attention, on behalf of the past and'pr . esent overseers of the parish of Liverpool, to the account; which I enclose. " By this account it will I;e seen that if the important public quest ion as to the parochial rate arising upon the municipal acts be decided against the parish, there will be 542,780 2s. 4d. due upon the Watch rates from the parish to the corporation, the whole of which sum inight be now legally enfOrced against the overseers without waiting for the result of the question on the parochial rate; and that if Ihat.question should be decided in favour of the parish, there will still be £5803 l9s. due upon the watch rates from the parish to the corporation, as an admitted . debt, to which there'is-not and cannot be any possible answe r on tt* part of the parish. " Under these circudisiances, I must require immediate pay ment of the sum of £5803 I9s With respect to the, balance of the £12,780 28. 4d. after this payment; or £6976 3s. 4d.; there isno objection to its continuing to stand over until the question as to the .parochiarrate is deter mined; but, then, there ought to be- some proper arrangement on this subject. At present, the past overseers for part, and the present overseers for the rest, of this balance, are personally liable, without, as Lunderstand, any express reserve being made for payment. How far this ought to be, I submit, is more for your consideration than mine; but on my part, it would be much more desirable that some proper reserve shotild be made, than the corporatiim should have to call upon official gentlemen, and that the indemnity of those gentlemen should cause an extra rate upon the rate-payers of a new year. " Requesting the favour of your early attention to this sub ject, " I remain, yours, truly, -1 ' RD. RADCLIFFE. " Messrs. Lowndes and Robinson." " P.S.—I write to-night to our agents, urging a special ap pointment of the case." THE ACCOUNT REFERRED TO. " Watch Rate undisputed. " 1836-7 £8515 14 0 1837-8 8515 14 0 " Parish and church rates appealed froth to the extent of £3492 s. Bd. " Of each parish rate 1836-7 £4113 14 6 " 1837-8 " Note. —The amounts rendered were £4128 125., but the parish have agreed to witbdtaw the parish rates on the Judges' Lodgings. he appeal t o en d i n favour of "State ( f account supposing the tparish. " Parish in account with the Corporation. Dr. Cr. " 1836-7 to watch-rate £8515 14 1836-7 by parish and " 1837-8 to ditto 8515 14 church-rates ....£4113 14 6 By cash 1837-8 by parish and church -rates By balance 5803 19 0 £17,031 81 "'l'o balance £580.3195. - "Slate of account supposin g the parigt not to he successf u l. " Parish in accountivith the Corporation. Dr. Cr. £17,031 8 0 £ s. d 1836") to ‘- To rate for IRiSIS two yeani 17,03! 8 0 1836-7. fly parish- d. rate on part of the property us to which there is • no appeal. and the church-rate • on the whole 621 12 10 By cash . c ... 3000 0 0 By, paris h a nd h.- . rates (as above) .621 12 10 By balance ......12,780 2 4 £17,031 8 0 "To balance —12,780 '2 4 • 'Mr. Ct7li E swirl , he was sorry to rise so often, but they had probably listened, but, not perhaps with the attention it deserved, to the - proceedings of the Watch Committee, sent by the Town clerk t o M essrs. Lowu d es an d Robinson, the Parish c l er k s, re specting the amount due from the parish to the corporation of 1:580a 194., supposinglne appeal to end in favour of the parish. But, supposin g the appeal to go in favour of the corporation, the sum due would be £12,780 2s. 4d, without the shadow of - objection again st any o f the amounts. The Town -clerk, had called the attt ent i on o f t h e parish clerks to the amount due, and had offered a v er y f a i r con dition, namely, that th e b alance in doubt should remain as it was till this question was tried; but, at the same time, from a sense of the public duty imposed upon h;m, he had urged the payment of the balance, which was an amount perfectiv undisputed ; and he bad no doubt, the church wardens and others, Who had taken the liabilities on themselves Would feel the strength of the claim, and would act accordingly; The reason he had called the attention of the council. to that subject was, because he had seen in the reports' of the, late parish meeting a statement, that the corporation was indebted to the parish in the sum of .1.7000: or £8U00; such a statement had been made their., and through the press was sent to the public; be:Therefore hoped, that the reporters now present— to whom they were so much indebted for the faithful record o f what passed in that room—would state to the public ; his con tradiction of the statements made at the parish meeting t o which he bad alluded; . and,• in order that it might be more, effectually dope, he would propose that the twri• documents which he held in . his hand—the town-clerk's letter to Messrs. Lowndes and Robitina, and the account which accompanied it—be handed to the reporters, that the real state of the account might be given to the public. The town-clerk had called upon them to pay iinmediately, and he hoped they they should take strenuous measures to enable the payment to be 'obtained im- I mediately, as £3OOO had been voted away. that morning. The TOWN-CLERK said he was on Tuesday called upon by 117 r. Robinson, on behalf of the parish; and he was glad that he was enabled to state, that the payment of the sum of £5 (J 0 was in the course of being made. (Hear.) Mi. Councillor BOLTON said a statement had been made about the vote of £3500, he suggested that they (the Finance coolmitree) did not authorise that payment. Mr. Alderman EVANS understood they had to consider it. THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD. • • Mr. CoopEß observed thal the proposition of the corporation to the parish was a fair one—to pie the E. 583) which it was ;toed at the smile time, it was important that the'toW n iqerk - shimld take effective ineaus to bring to an issue the que't inn of tll'priym,nt ot poor-rates, for live years' rates %vomit amount i o .f.:13,001, and if the parish should be unsuc cessful, many who ougtit to have contributed to the consequent increased rate,inignt b e le av i ng . The Towri-C LERK said, on his part there should be no delay. The MAYOR - put the queitions, and it was agreed to hand the Arco rents Mentioned by Air. Currie to the reporters, and th e procMAings of the committee were then confirmed. The proceedings of the Market Committee, Town Hall Com mittee, Education Committee, Garden Committee, and Church Expenditure Cominirtee, none of which were of public interest, were then severally read and confirmed. COURT OF REQUEST'S COMMITTEE. The TowN-ota:ak read the following report:— REP9RT. " That the committee haveconsidered the petition relating to the Court of Requests, with the letters accompanying the same referred to them. " That upon the subject of the petition they have been at tended by John Quayle, Esq., doctor of medicine, and surgeon, who sought an interview with them, as 'evidence on the allega tion in the petition, of the necessity of a change in the consti tution of that court, was, allowed to state his complaints against the decisions of that court, in cases of his own, which, on his former application, by way of appe a l f rom t h e coissioner, the committe e could m m not by law entertain. " That the complaints of this petitioner, upon his own show ing, appeared to the committee to be without any foundation whatever. (Hear.) "That whether the constitution of the Court of Request could be improved, acid the legal commissioner with advantage re lieved, by the addition of a limited number of burgessess to be summoned to sit with him as commissioners, or, under his asses sorship, to act as a jury, is a question which has had the anxious consideration of the committee, and will continue to have their best attention; desirable as it is, not only that justice should lie done, but that it should be administered as far as practicable to the perfect satisfaction of the public. "'That the committee, have, however, without coming to any opinion at present upon this important question, deemed it very unadvisable to submit any bill to Parliament on the subject until greater experience of the working of the constitution un der the act of 1836 shall be obtained; and more especially, as it is probable that if the bill for the abolition of improvement for debt should pass into a law it will become necessary in the next session to go to Parliament to extend the powers of the Court of Requests to process of execution beyond the mere goods of a defendant, so as to reach debts and other effects comprising, under reasonable limitations, the future property of the debtor. " That it may be proper to state inthe present report that the inquiries of the committee have produced the followim,s infor mation. By the Official return prior to the application in 1836, for the present Court of Requests act, it appeared that the average number of causes amounting to 40s. and nett exceeding £2 annually disposed of in the superior court of time borough at various stages at considerable eXj7ense, compared With the amounts sought for, was less than £5OO. By the official return it appears that, the jurisdiction of 40s. and under £5 being opened, to the Court of Requests by the act of 1836, the superior court of the borough and other courts still being open to suitors in 13 urouths prior to the Ist of December last causes of Ills. and under £5 to the number of 2528 Wei e disposed of by the Court of Requests." That report also received the confirmation of the council., THE BoIIOUGII COURT. Tire TOWN-CLERK next read his report respecting this court, as follows : " The town-clerk reports that the period is now arrived for gising notice of the second reading of the bill on th e su bj ec t o f the Borough Court, li g hti n g clauses, Observatory, and Kirkdale and Everton boundaries. " The progress of the bill for the abolition of imnrisonment for debt does not enable the town-clerk to snake any farther re•- port on that subject in connexion with "the Borough Court, by which will be understood not the Court of Requests, but the supe rior court of the borough.) But whatever course the bill on the subject of imprisonment for debt may take, the principal ob-• jects in the Borough Court must remain, viz., of obtaining from the legislature provisions for preventing' vexatious removals from the Borough Court to the superior courts, at periods when the proceedings below have nearly arrived at realm it v. " At the present time the consideration by the legislature of the general subject of local courts, and the pressure of business at the Liverpool assizes, make it reasonably probable that the advantages desired for the Borough Court may be obtained, and the measures proposed have the decided support of Mr. .Cresswell. "'The usefulness of this court to the public, under the direc tion of the assessor, and juries selected from the burgess roll, coupled with the cheapness of the proceedings, entitles the court to every attainable improvement. "'Phis and the other subjects of the bill--viz., proposed Ob servatory, and Everton and Kirkdale Ward boundaries—would not have been deemed sufficient of themselves for a bill. The Observatory clause will require some direction from the council alter the dock proceedings are read." The MAYOR inquired if it was the pleasure of the council to confirm the reports? Mr. Alderman FREME moved, that they he printed and cir cu:ated : they were calculated to remove much prejudice which existed against the Court of Requests, which was seconded by Mr. Councillor Mason. The MAYOR and several other gentlemen suggested, that they should be given to the reporters and printed. Mr. Councillor HENRY LAWRENCE suggested, that they be offered to the gentlemen of the press for those who chose, to take them. [As a matter of courtesy we have inserted them.l The proceedings of the committee were then confirmed. DOCK COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS. Amongst other things the promise of the Brunswick commit tee to bear half the expense of the erection of an observatory, was rescinded. Mr. Councillor LASSEL said, the council had confirmed:the order for its erection, and the dock committee had been request ed to contribute, but whether they did or not, the council was pledged to erect the observatory. He trusted the council would not rescind that former resolution, having voted away £3001) for thatmere taking down of the corner of a street. It had been intended to have erected an observatory on a large scale if the (lock committee had subscribed, and one worthy of the town. He had the other day seen a cousin of his, who sent his chrono meter to one manufacturer, who said it was in error three min utes and nine seconds, and another said its error was two min utes and 55 seconds, and the :fifference between them was equal to 67 miles Of longitude, which was really very important. Mr. EARLE said it was quite lamentable that argument was necessary , at the present day to show the necessity of an obser vatory. There were here two estates the eerpoiate and •the dock—the one with a revenue of £200,000 and the other £lOO,OOO a year, and yet they required strong solicitation to erect and maintain au observatory in a great town like this. What was money worth except for what it gave them: or was it only to be looked at in their coffers. He could again only use the language which he had before used, that it was really con temptible. (Laughter.) The TOWN -CLERK Said, the difficulty in which he stood was this. At the time when it was supposed the. Duck Committee would contribute, he bad framed a clause in the intended bill, assuming that they would contribute equal proportions. Was he to strike that clause out, and to act on the assumption, that the council alone would provide the necessary funds ? Mr. Councillor PLATT said, he had no doubt if the clause re mained the council would be relieved of much' Of the expense by private subscription, for it would he generally felt to be of great importance in a maritime place like Liverpool. Mr, Conncillor HORN ay had waited to hear some member of the Dock Committee explain why they had-rescinded their re solution to subscribe, for he thought there could be no expendi ture of money so useful to the dock estate and the interests of navigation. He thought it incumbent on some members of the Dock Committee to state the reason why they would not bear some portion of the expense. Whatever benefitted navigation must benefit the dock estate, and therefore it was more incum bent on them to subscribe than on the corporation. It was an institution which was very much wanted—it appeared if the corporation did not undertake to provide it it would not be ob tained. He, therefore, for one, would vote that. the Town clerk be instructed to take measures to enable the corporation to erect it. Mr. Alderman EvANs said if his friend Hornby had attend ed to the circumstances he would not have been surprised that none of the Duck Committee had risen, for the gentlemen on the other side had risen so rapidly, like so many flashes of lightning, that no person on his side could interpose. But, with regard to Mr. Earle's observation—to the freedom with which he was using the word " contemptible"— Mr. EARLE —Measures, nut men, sir. (A laugh.) . • Mr. Councillor EVA NS.—Yes, he knew; but measures were so often confounded with men, that it might really lead to. Very unpleasant occurrences. (A laugh.) For instance, if here after they happened to come out of gentlemen who were not quite considered privileged, these things and the exsinple might lead into what they should all wish to avoid. (A laugh.) With regard to the large incomes of the corporation and the dock estate, they existed in air, for they were all appropriated by anticipation. The wealth of either of the corporation or the pocks might be seen anywhere but in their coffers. They had it constantly mentioned there by the Town-clerk and by the chairman of the finance committee, that they were exceeding their income, and yet they were told now, that, like misers, they were gloating over the shining metal in their coffers. He believed that to he far from the case. Whatever might be the value of an observatory—and be did not deny it—he considered the test of that value was not shown by the conduct of either the mercantile associated bodies of the town or the individual merchants. .The whole expense was quite within the range of a small subscription, but, as Mr. Bolton had said, with regard to churchtnen, they looked, to the public purse; and they (the council) heard nothing now but of the . corporation and : dock estates, as the means of supplying. all 'kinds of insprovernats. It was quite notorious, that where the least encouragemeralP i as given to look to public resources, private contributions were i given up. An observatory was an object which ought to Kb 'the peculiar care .of eminent merchants, .great shipowners, and scientific men, but had they made any attempt towards attain ing such an object?' He had heard nothing of any public meetings,, but all at once there was a direct application to the t le he could give them an else--of ;r e , v w o i l t u li nt r a eg i y ar p •d ri t n o .e t p he , destruction —for it was n i) nothing P i ns tance of the effect produced by holding out the least hope of assistance from either government or any constituted body. In Dublin, during the period of the Irish parliament, there was what was called 41. House of Industry which had its origin in o the ) per annum ;. but, luckily, they got the Irish House of voluntary principle.. It was supported admirably with £3 mons to make a grant, and the subscriptions fell to £248 a year. G v m- If they went on originatingmatters of this sort, they might never hope for a single guinea subscription. But, with regard to the observatories dwil i houndduc ducks havingb build () ht ' he a yod more not than conceive they that were t t h o e e i e v p er a e nautical or marine college, or supply nautical or marine infor mation fur the whole world. Every thing might be brought to bear constructively, but the truth was, they ought to look to the docks merely as the addenda to the river—as pools. of water merely to float the ships and make up the deficiency of the Mersey. They never could have gone to parliament to obtain these docks, had they at first asked for an observatory or any other matter not immediately necessary to making the docks; if they had, most likelyt hey never Would have had the docks at all. Mr. Councillor CURRIE regretted very much that the Dock Committee should have felt called upon to rescind the former resolution. Notwithstanding what had fallen from his friend over the way, he thought it very desirable that an observatory should be established in Liverpool, and therefore nothing but the circumstances of that day would lead him to oppose the:in structions given to the Town-clerk. He thought that,the cost of an Observatory if it was to be at all worthy of the town, would he £5OOO a year to keep it up. ("No," £500.) It would cost £5OOO to build it, and If they were to have first-rate instru ments, with the salary of the astronomer, it would by degrees amount to a very large sum. He did not think the corpora tion was in a situation to spend that sum. They had enough to do with the funds that were entrusted to them at present, and until they go t r id of the heavy expenditure of the custom-house, they had n o thi ng ' to s p are. There would be ti m e, h e reafter, probably withi n the next two or three years, when the subject might be brought forward with more fitness and advantage. He 'toped th e council, finding they were not supported by the ducks, would postpone the measure; and be trusted that they w ould 'not think flimi'beeause of proposing this, hostile to the measure. Mr. Council/or LASSELL could see no ohjeCtion in voting for the measure immediately: they merely asked the power; they need not use it till five years hence if they thought tit. Mr. Councillor EAALE hoped it would be postponed for the present, and then the llock Committee might alter their opinion, Mr. Councillor J. IloLmEs moved that for the present the Town-clerk postpone the clause. Mr. Councillor should be very happy to second it; but that if be postponed for the present in the hone that if the present Dm-k Committee would not vote it, some others would be appointed that ‘vou Mr. Alderman LEATHI)M.—AiI be turned out? Mr. Councillor EARI.H.—WiI El all my heart. (A laugh.) The MA YOlt then put the question, when there appeared for withdrawing the clause, 2.5; against the clause being with drawn, 11. POSTOFF ICE REFORM. The report of the postoflice committee, which had been printed and circulated, was adopted, and referred back to the commit tee Mr. MSDEN said that report merely affected the local post office of Liverpool, and not the general question of posloffice reform. The MAYOR said, of course if the committee had any thing further to suggest it would be referred to the council. WATER TROUGHS FOR CATTLE. Mr. Councillor PLATT rose and said, the measure for water troughs for cattle had undergone much consideration from him, and, he was convinced it would be a measure of great utility to that useful class of people; he alluded to horses and cattle. (Laughter.) He thought the expense of their erection would be but trifling. Mr. Platt proceeded to advocate the erection of these troughs at the south end of the town, and proposed that a small toll should be levied on. those who used them, which he said would more than defray their cost. He then proceeded to "plead" as he said " f o r th ose an i ma l s (h orses and cattle) be cause they could not plead for themselves. (Laughter.) They were all ready to like a piece of beef—(" horse beet" and loud laughter)—and all ready to avail themselves of their services when it served their interest. Any person going to the back of Brunswick St., would see there what rows of animals there were—fine horses in carts, and donkeys—(loud laughter)—and drivers. (Continued laughter.) '1 hey. might laugh, but a drink of water would be very acceptible among them—("don keys and all," "he-ho," and loud laughter.) • 'The expense of each trough would not exceed £65, and they might be kept up afterwards for £l5 per annum each, lie hoped therefore that they would be granted. Mr. Councillor COOPER had great pleasure in seconding the motion. it would be a great comfort to those animals if it was adopted. Mr. Councillor Joans tsr advocated the measure. He spoke of the leilgth of time the horses were obliged sometimes to work without water, and hoped the measure would be granted: Mr Councillor DUNCAN opposed 'the motion on principle. The owners of the horses were well able to provide them drink and food themselves without applying to them for it. Mr. Councillor JOR DAN begged to ask if the north end of the town were not supplied with tanks? (Mr. Coglan—Yes.) Then why not the south. Mr. Councillor COOLAN with many flowers of rhetoric, sup ported the motion which Mr. Platt had so argumentively put to the council, and concluded with " hoping and trusting," that the interests of humanity would induce them to subscribe to the measure. Mr. DUNCAN'S amendment was not seconded, and Mr. Platt's ,motion was consequently carried, that the waler troughs be adopted. REMOVAL OF THE STAMP-OFFICE. The MAYOR stated that he had received a letter on this sub ject from Mr. Spearman, which he read as follows: " Treasury Chambers, 30th April, 1838. " SIR, —[laving laid before the lords commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury a resolution - adopted by the council of the borough of Liverpool, respecting the proposed removal of the Stamp,office to the Custom-house, which was transmitted in your letter of the 7th of February, 1 have it in command from their lordships to inform you, that upon a full consideration of the subject, and a communication with the commissioners of stamps and taxes, my lords do not consider it advisable to give clirections for the removal of the Staanp-ofliee at Liverpool from its present situation.-1 am, sir, your obedient servant, " A. G. SPEARMAN. " To the Mayor of Liverpool." The MAyosi then said, perhaps they would like it to be re ferred back to the committee, for it was distinctly in opposition to-the understood agreement on which the corporation bad ex pended so large a suns of money. The subject was referred back to the Custom-house committee accordingly. KING' LEG flig - • The MA YOR next informed S the COI counffl that Mr. Benson had applied for a nomination to King's College, and he found on enquiry they bad ten nominations—five to the upper and five to the lower departments. The corporation having voted £5OO some years ago, they becam e ent i t l e d to t h e nom i nat i ons; an d he would be glad to know how they would have them appropri ated. (Loud cries of "By the council.") The Mayor said he thought they would find some inconvenience attending that course. His worship afterwards added that the application for a nomination from Mr. Benson had led to inquiries on the subject, and the following was the reply:— " " King' s C o ll ege , L on d on, 27tH Ap r il, 1838. SIR,-In answer to the inquiry contained iu your letter of the 25th instant, I ha' e satisfaction in acquainting you that the corporation of Liverpool are entitled to nominations of pupils or students in this establishment, namely, to five in the higher, or the medical, and five in the junior department ;:or to ten , in the latter, the junior department; and to this extent the sig nature of the mayor for the time being will always be recog nised. I accordingly do myself the pleasure of enclosing some nomination and other papers : and I have the honour to remain, " Sir, " Your very obedient servant, " H. SMITH, Secretary. " G. W. Crooke, Esq., Town-hall, Liverpool." Mr. BOLTON thought it would be better, when applications were made, to give notice to the council. Mr. Alderman Hour moved that the Mayor's present appli cation be granted, which was seconded by Mr. Moms LAW RENCE. Mr• Councillor COGLAN oppose(' it. on. the. groupd that, it would savour of favouritism. All applications ought •to be placed on the same fooling. Mr. Councillor Cuuu E said that the subscription had been made souse ten years ago, but from that time to this no applica tion had been made for a nomination. It would be as well that the privilege were made known. Mr. -Alderman LuArsiom enquired what privileges the parties nominated had. The Macon said they were admitted on cheaper term. Perhaps the. best •plan would be to refer it to the Education Committee to make a' report ? Mr. Councillor EVANS asked 'whether, as the privilege of no minating would he of little service here, while it would be ad vantageous in London, it would be contrary to the dignity of the council ;o dispose of their right. 'The MA voR said if it were of little value here, it might be a matter of discussion whether they should not get the value for it. The matter was referred to the Education Committee to re- Tot t upon the advantages of the course of instruction. SOUTHERN AN T , IXTETH HOSPITAL. The MA Yon said he had received 'a memorial on this subject, which was read as follows : " To• the Worshipful the Alavor, Aldermenlikind Common council of the Borough of Liverpool. " The Memorial of the Committee of the Southern and Toxieth Hoapilul. " Showeth, " That on the Bth of February last several gentlemen, being desirous to establish an hospital in the southern part of the town, held a meeting at the Clarendon Rooms, when a resolution was unanimously adopted to the effect ' that the extension of the docks, the great increase of the population, and the distance of the lufirmary, rendered it expedient to establish an hospital at the south end of the town. "That an appeal was subsequenfly made to the public for the means of promoting that desirable object, which they have the gratification of stating was most satisfactorily responded to; the aniountof donations and subscriptions being £2OOO and upwards. " That your memorialists, being of opinion that the Town council are empowered, under the municipal act, to appropriate land to charitable purposes, beg lespectfully to apply to you fur a portion of land, agreeably to the annexed plan, for the purpose of erecting a suitable building thereon. The necessity for this hospital has been very generally acknowledged, and your memorialists trust its object will powerfully plead with the council, and induce them to comply with the views and wishes of your memorialists: the pressing want of such an institution in that very populous neighbourhood, and the frequent occur rence of casualties requiring the promptest attention, are grounds which your memorialists feel fully assured would jus tify the Town-council in the opinion of the public in according to this request, and would be ever. gratefully acknowledged by your memorialists. " On behalf of the committee, - ' " AMBRosE LACE, Chairman." Mr. PLATT, at some length supported the prayer of the me morial, urging strongly its necessity in the neighbourhood to which the memorial referred. Ile also added that nearly £2050. was already subscribed, and if the council complied with the wishes of the memorialists he doubted not they would be ena bled to erect such a building as would be a credit to the town. Mr, Councillor Lasser. enquired if it was in order to make long speeches in presenting memorials? lie had hada memorial to present for the last six weeks, which he had not the op iportu ' nity of presenting, an d if t h e di scuss i ons were prolonged n this way he should not be able to present it at this council. 'the memorial was referred to the town-clerk to report . , thereon. MEMORIALS. The MAYOR then read the memorial of Peter Cunliffe, for compensation for being turned out of a cellar in Canning-place, Also the . memorial Of Patrick Henry, of Sir Thomas's-build ings, who stated that in January last. a violent assault was com mitted upon the petitioner's wife by Johu M'Anenly, who was tried for the offence at the last sessions and fined £lO. and he elm prayed that the LW. might be paid to him .towards the loss and expense he had incurred. Likewise a memorial from Thomas Saul, the corporation beilman, praying for a grant of 4 earing apparel. And further, a memorial from Isaac Lee, of ,Seel-street, complaining of the proceedings of the Court of Re quests—the whole of which were referred to , committees. THE COUNCIL —T HE BALLOT QUESTION—AND THE WARD MEET INGS. Mr. L ASSELL now rose to present to the council a memorial of the reformers of Rodney -street ward, on the late ballot vot log of the council. Mr. FRRME, Mr. RAMSDEN, and another member; also hav ing similar memorials to present, it was desired that they should be all read before Mr. Lassell proceeded with his observations. • The Deputy TowN-cenex read them accordingly, as follows: " To the Mayor and Council of. the Borough of Liverpool, in Council assembled. " The Memmial of the Refirmers. (f Rodney-street Ward; in " ' ' Ward Meeting a ssem bl e d, Shovveth, • " That, in the opinion of your memorialists, the spirit of the municipal reform act is clearly designed' to establish the perfect responsibility of the members of the common council to their constituents: e "That your memorialists cannot refrain from expressing their opinion, that the adoption of any mode of voting which scieens from public observation the manner in• which a dele gated trustis exercised by their local representatives, is calcu- • lated, in the highest. degree,' to enfeeble. if not utterly to de stroy, the popularity of a liberal municipal corporation; and ' your memorialists view with feelings of alarm;-the method of , secret voting, resorted to iii the council chamber, on the 21st of ' February last., . ~. "By order and on behalf of the meeting, • , , •'THOS. HARVE Y , Chairs a , " Liverpool, 9th March, 1838." " To the Mayor and Common Council of Liverpool, in Coun • - •• - cil assemhled.. - The Armorial or the Reformers of Great George. Ward, agreed to at a Publii:' Meetiny held on the -19th instant, in Mr. R. B;yden' s large room, Upper Pitt-street, • " Respectfully showeth, • , a That your memorialists are fully persuaded that it i s founded on reason and experience that responsibility is eseeutiai to all pod government, and that one great excellence of the municipal ri.fortu act consists in its securing to the constituency the entire responsibility of the common council. " Your memorialists are also convinced, that all the delibera tions and votes of the representatives in council ought to be open and public, and that it was wisely provided and ordained, by an early resoltitio❑ of the reform council of this borough, that ,publicity should be•giten to rill their proceedings. Your memorialists having learried with much regret' that the members of the common. council adopted the mode of secret voting on the 21st of February list, cannot avoid declaring that such a plan is calculated to destroy all responsibility on the part of the representative, to lessen confidence in men chosen by the public voice for the management of a most important trust, and to conceal from observation decisions which ought to be subject to the examination of the whole constituency, whose interests are deeply involved. " Signed on behalf of the meeting, . . " Trzirs. Burly, Chairman. " Liverpool, 21st March, 1838." "To the Mayor and Common Council of the Borough o Liverpool, in Council assembled, " The Memorial of the Reformers of St. Paul's Ward, passed a a Public Meeting, held on the 28th March, 1838, " Respectfully showeth, "That your memorialists have observed with alarm that the vote I-y ballot has been introduced in the proceedings of the council, on the 21st February of this year. "That your memorialists believe the adoption of any mode of recording the votes of the members of the council, which de prives the constituency of the means of ascertaining in what manner each individual councillor discharges the 'duties of a delegated trust, is attended with great danger to the continu ance of responsible local government. "That your memorialists are most earnestly desirous that the Town -council should possess the entire confidence and support of the liberal majority of the electors of the borough. That support, they submit, can never be so fully secured as by the greatest publicity being given to the votes and the opinions of those whom the constituency have. elected. "Your memorialists, therefore, res p ec tf u ll y urge upon t h e attention of th e counc il the necessity for passing a resolution to the effect, that on all future divisions of the council, in which the mode of obtaining the votes is not prescribed by the legisla ture, the voting upon such occasions shall be open to public in spection. "And your memorialists will ever pray, &c. "Signed on behalf of the meeting, ‘• ILLl rt.rorra, Chairma "To the W ors hi p f u l the ` h ayor A a nd the m Common Council of the Borough of Liverpool. in Council assembled. "The Memorial of the Reformers of North Torteth iVard, adopted on Monday the 26111 " Respectfully showeth. "That your memorialists are deeply impressed 'with the con viction that the greatest publicity which can be given to the votes and opinions of the representatives in council constitutes the most effective check to any improper exercise of an impor tant public trust, and forms the best preservative against the evils which time and circumstances have a tendency to produce in all human institutions. "That in common with a great number of the liberal consti tuency of the borough, your memorialists have observed with alarm- the mode of secret voting adopted in the proceedings of the council oil - the 21st of February last, upon the occasion of recommending magistrates for her majesty's new commission. "That your memorialists have to express their regret that upon a former occasion, the same mode of obtaining the votes of the couneil'as that of which they now complain, was adopted without observation or protest on their part, a circumstance which they attritnite to the novelty of their posit ion. with refer ence to to the various and important duties which the muni cipal reform act called upon them to pertOrm. "That your memorialists, in the twist respectful but earnest terms,, represent the danger which is likely to result from such a mode of obtaining the sense of the council, with reference to its effects in the first instance upon the responsibility of the re presentative, and in the. second place, its tendency to lower the character for independence which the council now enjoys in public estimation. "That your memorialists firmly believing that while the pro tection of the ballot would be judiciously employed in render ing the exercise of a right inherent in the individual indepen dent.and uncontrolled, it would, at the same time, have a most injurious effect when used to shield from the public the mariner in wide!' their representatives discharge the duties of a delegated trust. "Your memorialists, therefore, respectfully call upon the council to pass a resolution to the effect, that upon all future occasions in which the council shall have to dis charge its elective powers, either in its legislative or its executive capacity, that the open mode of voting shall in every instance be adopted. "And your memorialists - trill ever pray, &c. " Signed on behalf of the meeting, "WILLIAM M'Kxa, Chairman. " Liverpool, March 31st, 1838." Mr. LASSELL then continued. He said as soon as the me morial had been put into his hands, he put a motion on the books to the effect that the council would pass a resolution that on all future occasions they would vote openly; but probably if he had had more experience he should have couched it in dif ferent language. Ile thought ititieltd be unnecessary to burden the books with every memorial, he therefore would move " that the memorial be received, and that it he a standing order in the council, that on all occasions in which thei e was a division the votes should be taken openly." He had been requested to sup port the prayer of the memorial, and he agreed with the reform ers of Rodney -street Ward, except where they express their alarm at the vote of the council, for he did not partake in that alarm. if it had been a predetermined vote there might have been just cause for alarm, but it was not so: they merely voted as they had done before —erroneous thought it was in a repre sentative body to vote secretly. No one would dispute that it was the intention of the municipal act to establish entire respon sibility. That was a defect of former corporations, which were self-elected, with nobody to call them to account, the public only being made aware of their proceedings in consequence of the communications of some of the more liberal of their body, for the press was carefully excluded from their deliberations. It was to remedy this that the municipal act was passed, and the framers of that act in the first instance intended that the aldermen as well as the councillors should be elected by the peo ple; hut it having been Robaerinotatly dotaelnin e ,) to le,va their election to the council, an additional responsibility was cast upon them, in enabling them to add largely to their number by self-election. But in giving that power the legislature prevented them voting secretly in the choice of aldermen, by appointing the manner in which it should be done ; and he conceived that every argument that held good with reference to the election of aldermen, would hold good in respect to every other appoint ment which they made; they had a like responsibility in both. He believed that if any one person in council called for open voting, it was their duty to take their votes by card ; it did herefore .seem a strange anomaly that if 63 wished for secret voting that any one should have it in his power to thwart their' wishes. That might be u se d as an argument against him, bu t be would nevertheless press hi s motion, that it. be r. standing order that all questions should be determined by open voting. Mr. PLATT seconed the motion. Mr. BOLTON supported the motion, and he concurred in the opinion that no vote ought to be given, that would put them in a situation to screen themselves. With regard to the occurrence which had given rise to the meetings from which the memorials presented that day had emanated, he believed it had been the result of inadvertency, which he pleaded. If he had foreseen the dissatisfaction which had arisen in consequence, he for one would have moved that their names be recorded. Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE briefly od s. Mr. Alderman EV ANS sa id , as theppose council ecret have voting already re ceived the memorials, I have no need to dwell on the number and respectability of those who have been parties to them; But, With regard to the resolution which has been offered by Mr. Lassell, I must altogether dissent from it. I conceive, that it is quite sufficient that the memorial's be read. That the well expressed wishes of the people of Liverpool will have due weight at the proper time, I have no doubt whatever, and 1 conceive that ought to content all parties. We have one of the memorials mentioning the words of " independence of the council." Sir, the independence of the council in every respect ought to be equally dear to the constituency as to ourselves. This council.cannot be lowered, cannot he degraded, cannot be held out to the public as a corporate body under the influence of fear, without a very great injury upon the constituency itself. (Hear.) Under these circumstances I greatly regret that Mr. Lassell—he was not called upon, 1 believe, by the Rodbev-street memorial to move any resolution whatever, the others have got it in, and there it would have stopped. Mr. Lassell, in his opi nions upon the ballot generally, is quite at vat lance with what 1 believe to be the opinions of the great majority of the refor mers of Liverpool. Mr. Lassell is against the ballot in elections of members fur parliament. 1 believe the reformers are all for it; therefore, the Rodney -street Ward reformers, not having asked him to move a resolution of that sort, I cannot help think ing he is going a little beyond what was required of hint. But, Sir, what necessity is there to press in aid any resolution upon this now ? Is it not coercing the council into an acknowledg ment, that it had committed an error—one of a nature that was almost treated as a crime? Now, Sir, I have no feeling what ever that we did err at that time, and the evidence of it was that there was not one gentleman got up to notice that we were doing what was wrong. That this matter, which, in itself; is an absolute mole-hill has been inaje into a mountain is quite clear, but for what purpose I know not, at least I wont endea vour to account. But I cannot conceive that we can, after re ceiving these memorials, come to any resolution of that kind. that would be equivalent to the admission, which we have no right to make, for we were nut conscious of it, and I am not yet conscious of the impropriety of resorting upon particular occa sions to that mode of electing. But I grant that when it is the wish of the constituency, if it is not a principle of a vital nature, that we ought not to carry it into practice.. It is much better to act in accordance with the constituency, and .on that they ought to rely, that their memorials will not he forgotten, and that they will have their due weight. On that account I con fine myself to recommending to the council that they receive them with all the respect due, but -that they pass no resolution Of this kind. I see not why the constituency is to doubt this council—why are we to doubt o urse l ves — w h y are we to di vest ourselves of discretion hereafter? And what would be the use of it ? Were we to make a resolution of this kind, it is not like a bye-law which will hold ms, which will bind us• it will be competent for any body after that to get up and move the old mode of acting. But I conceive that we cannot, with the sense of what we owe to ourselves, which we owe to the constituency, go into any resolution before the occasion comes in which we are 'called to exercise our elective or our recommendatory powers. It is quite sufficient upon that occasion, and upon every other, to decide how we are . to vote; therefore, I oppose all kinds of restrictions —all kinds of limitations on the discre tion of the council. Mr. Councillor JOHN SMITH said; that he should he doing an injustice to his own feelings as the representative of an indepen dent constituency, if he did not raise his voice, on that occasion, against what he considered to he an unwarrantable attempt to control the free-exercise of the opinions of that council. In what light, he would ask, where•they, sitting officially in that' room, to be viewed by the public out or doors? Were they to be considered 'as the representatives or simplyeas the delegates of the•people? 'Were they to be looked upon as mere automa tons in the hands of certain parties, to do their bidding upon every occasion, without being permitted to have even a will or opinion of their own ? If he thought for a single instant, that such• was the tenure upon which he held his office, highly as he might prize the honour ore seat its - that council, rather titan submit to such degrading and humiliating conditions, he would at °nee resign it. They were terms which no independent mind could tacitly submit to—they-were terms which no independent constituency ought to enforce. But he had a very different opinion of what ought to constitute the character of a town councillor. He considered that the public had an undoubted right to expect that he would at all times further and support, to the utmost of his poster, every , measure that might be deemed conducive to the general welfare. 'That he would advocate as strict an economy in the expenditure of the ssorpurate funds as might be consistent 'with the dignity of the council, and compat ible with the growing wants and improvements of the town ; in fact, that he would uniformly use his best endeavours to pro mote the interests, the comforts, and the happiness of the peo ple—thus much he would readily admit, the public had a right to expect at his hands—but with regard to the means, the man nea, the mere machinery by which these measures were to be carried into effect, he contended they bad no just right to inter fere; these were matters which might safely be left, and which ought to be left, to the judgment and discretion of him' whom K - y 7 if : 1 •-' 4 ', .--'", 1 - 17 ---- .: S' they had sel ec t e d t o b e their representativf;t ' kiitenfentiter'•• • rote or principle; would be to coerce and OW ,;.ttitiiiiii:de , Llea-'‘;,:; rl cerree of that representative, and the um . - - I**itiirAba't, they curtailed and circumscribed The sphere o. h . tiMnitikesii. These were his candi d opinitnisthey might p se - ni the might offend—but, as they proceeded Irina the honest convic-• lion of his mind, he stater' them boldly or unreservedly.. Willis trielt respect to the question of the ballot itself, he bad no hesitation in declaring that he appinv'ed not' of the practice of secret voting either its doors at tort of doors. He was 'a staunch ad mirer of that straight-`forward, mailly; John Bull system of open-voting, which had hitherto diitinguisked, and 'which be hoped and trusted would long coutinue . to diStiuguisk, the cha racter of the British people: As he could not, howevei; bring his mind to regard the memorials Before 'theme in any other point of view, than as an assumption of 'dictate - tied authority over the• proceedings and free deliberations of the council, he would oppose the motion of Mr. Lassen. • Mr. Councillor HENRY LAWRENCE opposed secret voting: but cohtended that the voting iu question was not secret; for the papers were written in the presence of other gentlemen, and some of them were signed by 'the g entlemen voting; who con ceived it necess ar y t o d o so. 'lf had rite signed his paper concealment was out of the question; for his handwriting was known to every attorney'e'clerk in Liverpool. •' ' '' ' - Mr. EARLE concurred with what had fallen from Mr. Alder , man Evans and 'Mr. Lawrence, and added that be .had signed . his voting paper on the occasion in question. Mr. COG LA N did not view the memorialising the council by their constituents as an attempt to coerce them ; but he agreed that too •much had been made of the matter. He thought that the greet mass of reformers who sent their representatives them knew that they had laboured assiduously, and they ought not to be too severe on a subject on which there was so wide a differ ence of opinion. But so long as their constituents felt their secret vote to be a violation of the principles on which they came to that council their sentiments ought to be listened to with at tention. He thought they all should agree in the leading principles, that whatever their opinions might be, they might not to shield th em . Something. hied been said.of John Bull giving. his vote openly, but many there knew, and none so well as the gentleman who had addressed them, that thoge votes were often the result of intimidation and•coercian. He had made up his mind as to the necessity of protecting the constituency, but the constituency had a right to call upon thetn to vote openly, that they might know how their votes had !teen given. On that point they were all agreed. Their constitutents, too, had a right to express their sentiments to theta, without being supposed to desire to coerce them. Why did they vote privately, and they all admitted that they ought not to have done so. If the matter were left to himself individually, be should prefer briny shielded by the ballot—perhaps he should give a more honest vote if left to his tmwu unfettered feelings, because he could vote without of fending individual s o f breakiug those relations of life, which they were all anxious to preserve. ,But-as the public had a right fo know whether he acted tip to the opinions on which he entered the council—and they had all seen that pub lic men had entered the arena of public life who were.supposed to maintain certain principles which' they were afterward." found to have deserted—he - spoke of the national senate, for he hoped there were none there who bad abandoned their prin ciples—be agreed that voting should be open; for if they hail the protection of the ballot those who deserted their colours might go on with a series of measures inimical to the' views which their constituents Supposed they entertained. Mr Hoesmeir wished to explain why he should vote against the motion of Mr. Lassell. To himself it was a perfect matter or indifference ,whether they tfail the ballot of ' not, but he thought it unne cessary to pass a resolution, when the intention of the council was understood. Mr. Lassell, in the course of his remarks, had stated that it . it were desired by one member the voting must he taken openly—(hear, hear)—and if, there:. fore, there was only one honest man to be found among them it was sufficient. On those grounds, and not from any disrespect to the memorialists, he should vote against the resolution of Mr. Lassell. Mr. CURRIE hoped he was not like his friend Mr. Coglan, that he should give a vote wore honest with the ballot than with.: out it—perhaps with it he should vote more comfortably. He begged, then, to remark in the first instance, that they were bound to receive with all respect every advice or suggestion, whether justified or not, of their roust it nents„and to the best of his power he would act according to their wishes; but he thought a great deal more had been made of that matter than was ne-• necessary. He did not consider himself to blame for the vote he had given on2lst February, for they had acted so before, when a similar question was before the council. He was always ready to avow his vote, and he never gave one that he cared publicly to pro claim. It appeared to be understood that in future the wishes of their constitutents should be complied with, why then was itnecess nary to pass that reso l ut i on ? H e thought their constituents . might be satisfied with knowing their memorials had been re ceived. and that the vote of which they complained was, not the rule but the exception—for it was only the Second vote of the sort in two years and a half —and it webs not likely to be fol lowed by any dangerous consequences-. With those viewse.- but at the same Gine lie dissented from the opinion'of the councillor for West Derby, that there was an attempt at dicta tion -(hear)—for the memorialists did not wish to control their' actions, but. merely :Wished that they should change time mode of expressing them—but he repeated with those views be thought to pass that resolution was a work of supereorogation: If they were then to make it a standing order, next week, next month, or next year, it might he rescinded, and, therefore, they , required to belmound by something stronger than a mere reso-' lotion of the council. He wished, therefore, not to negative the motion, but, as lie considered it unnecessary, he was desi-: rous to get rid of it as delicately as possible, and should move the previous question, and he trusted their constituents would be satisfied. Mr. IPA Itcr.A y seconded Mr. Currie's amendment. Mr. Coorea expressed his gratification to hear so general an expression of censervative sentiments in the memorials; lie was for open John Bull voting and now he found all around him agreed on that subject, since the• holding of the Great George's ward (Conservative) meeting, of which, by the by, he had never heard until he entered that loons. (Laughter.) ' Mr. Wooeur IG tir 'thought they did not want a standing or der to bind their consiteendy. • • - Mr. Alderman Leaeriost agreed with Mr. Currie in his views : Mr. DUNCAN haft felt disposed to vote With Mr: Lassell, but' after hearing Mr. Currie he did not think it necessary to pass Mr. Lassell's resolution. Mr. Alderman Rtri.Lai Collll,lll'eA with M,. Cut tic. Mr. RAMSDEN would support Mr. Lassell's motion, Mr. JORDAN thought it a bad etimpliment to the gentlemen of the press to suppose that anything taking place there would he secret. • Mr. 11A wnon and Mr. LEIGH both expressed their approval of open voting; but Mr. Leigh said he concurred in the obser vations of Mr. Currie. • The MA you would deviate from his usual custom, and ex press his opinion on the motion before the Council He would vote against Mr. Lassell's motion ; for he disapproved of that tying up of their bands. He should look at the object before then:, and keep it steadily in view, and, perhaps, in attaining it; he might not take the same view asthis constituents would, and if his constituents had not confidence iti him the sooner they got rid of him the better. . . Mr. LASSELL replied... • ' ' Mr. Councillor JORDAN recommended Mr. Lassell to with draw his motion, which, however, was not complied with. The MA V on then put the motion, when there were— For the previous question .. Against it.... 15 • Majority The motion of ,Mr. Lassen was theretore gut rid of. The following was the division : For the precious question.—nessrs. J. Holmes, Mr. Thorn hill, W. Preston, C. ltawdou, B. Frankland, FL Holmes, J. Woollright, H. Hornby, H.. Lawrence, W. Earle, jun., J. S. Leigh, J. Smith, F. Jordan, W. W. Currie, W. M. Duncan. Aldermen 'l'. Leathom, G. Holt, C. H. Jones; E. Evans, T. Holt, J. Moon, 'l'. Bullet', T. B. Barclay and the Mayor. Against the previous question.—Messrs. E. Harvey, J. Mellor, T. Bolton, J. Lawrence, J. Cooper; J.N. Wood;! W. Lassill, T. Morecroft. 'l'. Coglan,.l. Mason, E. Segar, G H. Lawrence, J. Platt, G. Rainsden, itnd Alderman W. P. Freme. ,• The council then adjourned at'a quarter to four o'clock to t he first Wednesday in next month. Ptior,tFic MARE.—On Saturday, a• mare belonging' to Mr. Johnsou g of the Greyhounds, Boothstown, Worsley, foaled two coalts, which are doing well. It is reported, that a metropolitan member is to be one of the, coronation peers, and that a Whig-radical, lung connected with: the borough, will stand in his place. JORBING.—Joint stock Anipanies have been wittily said fo resemble the christmas . game of snap-dragon —sortie get the . plumbs, while a great many burn their.fingers. The trades of Glasgow are preparing 'to getup a great public " demonstration" in favour of universal suffrage in that city.' It is fi " xed • fort he `'2lst of n ext mouth, and Mr. Attwood and other friend s from Birmingham are to be invittd to attend. The trades are to come forward on this, us on former occasions; with flags, banners, and music. • Surcint •r o nt Love. —Mr. :Pain; • a student at Oxford, andi belonging to a wealthy fantily, ih Glamorganshiee, killed him self with a pistol-shot ; a few Ila,vs since, in consequence of hat , ing been gifted by the daughter of a solicitor in Glatuorgan shire. , F• • • • • • A banquet was given by the goldsmith's company, on Satur day, at their splendid hall, to the Duke of Wellington, Sir It.' Peel, Lord Ls ndhurst,.and a numerous circle of conservative noblemen, Alderman Copeland president. Titi; SwEbisit POLTCE.-1100KING.—an perambulating the streets' during' night each carries an - instrument something' like a pitchfork, baying a spring••at• the end of it, by which a rnaurais sujet, when in the acLof flight, can either be taken by the neck or leg, and thus secured most effectually, which saves these guardians of the night much trouble••in running after them unarmed.—Kae Wilson's Travels in Norway and Sweden.. CONGRESS OF MONARCHS.—A congress is tinon the lapis, to be held at Prague, in July, at which the three northern' poten tates will preside, assisted by the Kings of Hanover, Bavaria, and Wirtemburg. Spain and the East are the reported topics; Poland and the catholic question being mutually agreed upon by the Czar, and.the King of Prussia to be passed sub silentia. • ROCHDALE FLANNEL MARKET, AIONDAY, APRIL 30.—The market to-day has undergone little change from that of the Creceding week ; and the pie ces w hi c h h ave b een sold are at ast Monday's pikes. There has not been much doing in ther wool market, and the indifference of• the manufacturers to pur-' chase shows that they have not much fear of its being higher. Prices have undergone no change since last market. THE DUCHESS OF LEINSTEU'S , DIAMON 138.—A warrant ha* issued by the magistrates of Henry-street .police-office, Dublin, against Sii Francis Stanhope, on a charge of being concerned in the robbery of the casket of "diamonds belonging to*the Duchess of Leinster,• which have since breu restored. Sir Francis is brother of the duchess, and holds.the office of usher' to the linights , of St. Patriak.—Globe. • !., PPESTON AND LoNEttiDGE RA ILWA 7.—On Saturday last, the half-yearly meeting of the proprietors of the Preston and; • Longridge Railway was held, pursuant to advertisement, at the Town-hall, for the purpose of electing directors '(as required by the act,) to fill up the vacancies arising from the going nut of office of six of the whole number of twelve who form the direct-: - ing body. There were about twenty kentiemen present; and T. B. Addison, F.sq., was called to the chair. The report of the directors of the state of the works throughout the line Wits then read, and 'stated, amongst other matters, that the execu tion of the work at the Longridge end had been let to Messrs. Fleming and Co. It appeared from the report that the works , were in a stade of forwardness. It was stated that the directors were in treaty for the purchase of some land at Dilworth, near the terminus at Longridge; and a resolution was agreed to, au thorising them to conclude the contract tor the same accordingly. The acquisition of this land will, .we learrr, be ofgreat acHifitage, as it will enable the company twototain a more easy awd econo mical access to the quarries, than was at first anticipaied ; a ; gradient, or inclined plane, being reduced—the level ou which they will now form the road being lower. - The report as to the prospects of the - undertaking gave very general satisfaction to the meeting, who expressed the approval of the cunt - 111CA and exertions of the :directors. Mr: Wilockson aioted, that the directors who .had gone out (by previous ballot) should be re- .. elected.- The toption was seconded by Mr: Alderman Dixon? .. and was unanimously agreed tq, so that all the former direetttif resume office..—Prettot t Olniereet`i • . . . •