The Sun. — London, England, 1857-12-08 00:00:00

receive cordial ,support of the Board. To tell the real truth, however, 2:suspected the quar ter t from whioh the communication carte , and thought that . lft .h a td got difficulties enough with Ont engaging in a con route with the press. Therefore I tiore e the abuse as I ld, and , my only offence was that attar my first three month s word that appeased in residence in India I never le the newspapers. (A. laugh.Taheyttrteoateadllomwe inthseumchtao manner that I was determined not d which I knew to disturb that tranquillity be essential to carrying on of t m h: public some prosecutions noble earl opposite has spoken. o f mind business. The Osecutieue , I under the Act. There has bees three x understand, of the newspapers whose e ses the gentlemen passing of the Act. In the first two' ca art of the Crown P ce r sses led td the who concheeted the prosecution on the p l a ced in on the came to terens with the persons who ee ere pe rupee da dock, and a& 'reed to take a ver d ict w of as a verdict for magas. In the third case also there insignificant d amages (as we un I have tood made no attack ders. O f Lord Canning I have said n othing. upon him. Before the breaki ng out of the insurrection Lord Canning was 'ularity, and he succeeded. personally e xtremely popular. He laid himself out to o bta in R e p • Every one did him ta .le justice to say that he was a con scientious hardworking' man, and I believe, no jobber —a wonderful merit in that country—(a laugh)—and really did all he could to . nerform t he duties of Governor General. That was the g etieral impression. My own belief is that no man ever w 'tut out to India with a more sincere desire to do his duty to the country which he had to govern ; but there can be no doubt that at the present moment he has not the confidence either of the people of Calcutta or of the Europeans g enerally throughout India. I attribute that to this, tha tbe has attempted to do that which has failed every,where, wed which never can succeed—he has attempted to carry on h . government in spirit opposed to the feeUngs of all .those on when] he could depend for support. Earl GREY—I heard the close of the speech delivered by the noble earl (Ellenborough) a abort time ago with the greatest pleasure. (Cheers.) He laid down in mast admirable language the rule which ought to be followed by the Government and people of this country in their conduct towards the natives of India in the present un fortunate state of affairs. I cordially agree with him in what he said as to the necessity of severely punishing the guilty. I agree no less cordially with his opinion of the equal necessity of discrimination in the infliction of that punishment. I agree with him, if possible, still more in what he said as to its being absolutely neceesary, if we wish our empire in India to continue, that nothing should be done to forfeit the confidence of the great mass of the Indian people. It is as clear as daylight that if it once becomes the opinion of the great body of that people that the government of their country is carried on by England for purposes inconsistent with their wel fare—if you once create in their minds a feeling that we regard them with hostility, the days of our power are numbered. (Hear.) No efforts we can make, no exer tions, no army which we can employ, can enable us to coerce the millions of India if they are really excited against us. Therefore I heard with great satisfaction what the noble earl said upon this subject, because I know that any observations of his will have great force, not only in this country, but among the natives of India. But, my lords, great as was the satisfaction with which I heard this part of the speech of the noble earl, I con fess that it did not remove the regret which I felt at his having brought on this discussion at all. It seems to me that in the present state of India, looking to the difficulties with which Lord Canning as Governor- General has to contend, this great rule is binding upon ovary man who has the honour of a seat either in this or in the other House of Parliament—viz., teat we should not upon any account, by any incautious word which we may utter in places from which every word that we may say goes to the farthest extremity of the world, do any thing which can diminish the moral power of the man who is entrusted with the great authority of the Go vernor-General of India—(cheers)—and, therefore, that unless there is a case of clear necessity, even if Lord Can ning has made mistakes, we in this house ought not, nor ought gentleman in the other House of Parliament, to dwell on those mistakes, or to hold them up in language which is likely to diminish the confidence which is placed in him by those whom he has to govern. I say even when there are real mistakes we ought not to comment on them, unless there is some great public object to be gained by exposing them, some great fault in conduct that ought to be corrected in future, or some amendment to be accomplished. I say if this is the correct prin ciple which ought to govern our conduct, I cannot be lieve that the cases which the noble earl (the Earl of Ellenborougb) has brought forward furnish reasons for hostie comment, Without entering into an argument in defence of those measures for checking the sale of arms which have been pretty well defended already by my noble friend who spoke last, I cannot help saying that. on the noble lord's own showing it appears to me that the Acta in question are not deserving the censure which he has passed upon them. Can anybody doubt that, under the circumstances in which India has been placed, during the last few months, the Govern ment ought to have some power of checking the sale of arms ? (Hear, hear.) It seems to me the very first thing that ought to have been done. (Cheers.) Is it quite impossible that there may be Europeans so guilty and so deserving of the severest condemnation that may be heaped on them as to be parties to supplying the natives in rebellion against them with arms ? (Hear, hear.) Have we never heard that some of the subjects of a State which was trembling for its existence were base enough to sell arms to its enemies ? (Hear, hear,) Ha that not happened in the - United States and Holland 1 Has it not happened even in our own country I (Hear, hear.) I say such a power of checking the sale of arms is absolutely indispensable to a Government. I think in the present state of India it would be in the highest degree unwise, with respect to the posses. sion of arms, not to apply the role which puts one colour against the other. I think the distinction of colour and of origin is a distinction that must be practi• tally acted upon in a great degree in a country in the position of India, (Hear, hear.) Then, with regard to the Act relating to the press. I think the noble earl himself made out most conclusively the ne cessity for a suspension of the liberty of the press in India. There is no man who valuss more highly than I do the liberty of the press, but circumstances may occur in which we may pay too dearly for the boon. In India, in such a crisis as the present, I can conceive nothing more impolitic than to permit the unrestricted liber,ty of the press to exist. I can conceive a state of oirCumatances in which it might have bad the effect of arraying against us those native princes and brave men in India on whose support we have mainly depended. But Igo further. I believe that in countries in the state of India the greatest difficulty and danger we have had to encounter is that which arises from the disposition of small minorities, who, finding themselves in a situa tion of great peril, and impolitic measures. (Hear, hear.) We have seen it, formerly in the West Indies during the slave insurrection, when the great difficulty was to keep the white people in order and prevent them from driving the whole coloured popalation into hostility So it was at the Cape, and so it is in every country which is in this unfortunate situation. It is the natural fear whioh small minorities who have been dominant" have when attacked by a portion of the majority, and the danger lies in those fears urging them to have re course to measures which will combine the whole of the rest of the population against them. I believe lam not in error in saying that this state of feeling has of late been shown very conspicuously among the white inhabitants of Calcutta. While our countrymen in the East have de served the highest credit for the manner in which they have generally conducted themselves during this trying season, I am afraid that some at least of the inhabitants of Calcutta are hardly entitled to the same praise. (Hear, hear.) I cannot help thinking that there has been a dis position among them to urge on the Government mea sures which would have been extremely unwise, and mast have led to very bad effects. I say, therefore, it is absolutely necessary that the Government should be armed with very stringent powers in this emer gency. It is absolutely necessary to have either a con eorsilip or freedom. Whatever may be the inconve niences which may follow, it is necessary to adopt one course or the other ; and I think the Government is entitled to credit for using this restrictive power over the press with the minimum amount of inconvenience I have thought it my duty to make these few observa tions, because in this great crisis I think it is of national importance that we should not fetter the Indian Go vernment in the exercise of its discretion, and because I think that the present Governor-General is fully entitled to the encomium which my noble friend, who spoke last has pronounced upon his conduct. (Cheers.) The Earl of MALMESBURY said he could not too strongly protest against the attack made by the noble earl opposite upon his (the Earl of Malmesbnry's) noble friend (the Earl of Ellenborougb), and against the prin ciple which he had laid down that it was a vicious prat tine to discuss Indian subjects at this time in their lord ships' house. (Hear, hear.) If the noble earl really believed in the impropriety of that practice, he should have sat down immediately after giving that advice, and not have gone on violating his own suggestion. There was a contradiction between the noble earl's advice and big conduct. But, be that as it might, he (the Earl of lialmeabury) thought they should really be abdicating their duties, and forgetting all the purposes for which their lordships' house existed, if in such a momentous Ir s ieis as this they w ere t o b e content, at t h e bi dd i ng Ofthe noble earl, to sit there with their mouths closed until toileo th r z Government g ave th em perm i ss i on to speak. havoy The nobl e ear l cou ld not have chosen a more ?sari oftoo is inent for making his suggestion ; for he (the that if the esbury) w s there to express his belief advice tendered by his nobl • friend (the Earl of Zlle e e, orou of the unfortunate circu mstances ago had been followed many I have e ir o cumstances they had now to de plore wouki not h the rebellion would harad, and much of the fury cf fire, it was the duty of the/ abated. He felt, there discharging that d u t y they wer lordship s , an d that i n country, to discuss these matteresdosicg service to th e could, and without party feeling • or emp erate l y if they kind. But they were certainly not e j e r . e i judice of a ny the circumstances of the case to abdicate otZebiry any of tutienal functions and keep silence ort such occasions, He thought the noble earl misunderatoOrZ. (Lord Maltnesbury's) noble friend (the Earl of Ellen!. • boreugh) in one respect. What his noble friend said; Wits- that he objected to putting the rebellious Indianti on the same footing as the loyal Europeans. (Hear.) They were antagonists and fighting for their very ex.t 'etence and what astonished the people of this country was Visa% the Governor-General fo r some reason which , , he had not • me I Lord C THE ADDRESS. foot explained, put the bellierents on the sa me A.STLEROSSE mg- Re was intend• to d is c uss the question most gracious answer in brought up her Majesty's "'nether nati ve s to the address It stated • "I and Europ ea ns were to b e placed on have received With satisf- '— the same looting, • I address. It i s action your loyal d and u altho correct) athered the fu muchyearne • ugh if h correc meaning of the noble e g op er ate in measures which t desire at all times to cc prove earl's observations, that was the end to • Improve the state of Bentinck was sent to Rangoon to fetch her Majesty's 84th Regiment, In the meantime a military court of inquiry into the conduct of the 12th Regiment was held, and as soon as the Court bad concluded its labours and presented its report and the European troops in the station had been reinforced, Lord Canning came to ,the conclusion that it was neeessary to disband the regi ment which had mutinied. Then a charge had been made against Lord Canning that disbandment was toe lenient a punishment for the offence, but what other sentence he could have passed upon a whole regiment it was difficult to discover, unless, indeed, Lord Canning had resorted to the same severe measures which at Meerut originated the more fatal portion of the recent outbreak. The whole experience of the mutiny had shown that the Governor-General was justified in the course he adopted. The mutiny of the 34th was a more serious affair. The men of that regiment allowed their officers to be attacked, and in some cases actually a-sisted in those attacks. In that case the in terval which elapsed between the occurrence of the out break and the disbandment of the regiment was occupied by a military inquiry, which was completed on the 18th of April, the mutiny having taken place on the 29th of March. When the court-martial sent in its finding nothing conid be more embarrassing than the position in which it placed the Governor-General, for it found one part of the regiment to be guilty and acquitted the other portion. Now, the most important of the misstatements which were made in the pamphlet to which their lord ships' attention had been drawn was that which attri buted the resolution which had been taken by Lord Canning relative is the disbandment of the 34th Regiment to the example which had been set him by the energetic conduct which had been displayed by Sir H. Lawrence at Luoknow. Now, the fact was that the minute of Lord Canning in reference to the matter had been issued on the 30th of April, whereas the mutiny at Lucknow had not taken place until the 3d of May. Tbat circumstance afforded, he thought, a satisfactory answer to the charge that Lord Canning had been stimulated by the example of Sir H. Lawrence in the adoption of the course which he hal pursued. The facts of the case went clearly to establish that Lord Canning actually took those measures to which Sir H. Lawrence had only threatened to have recourse, and that so far from its having been his opinion that the former had acted too harshly in dealing with the regiments which bad mutinied at Lucknow he had, upon the contrary, found fault with him for being too lenient, and he had therefore, he thought, laid before their lord ships grounds sufficient to prove that the state ments contained in the red pamphlet were utterly erroneous, and that the inferences which were drawn from them were based upon a total misconception of the facts of the case. (Hear, hear.) Earl GRANVILLE then rose and said he was sure it would be satisfactory to their lordships to know at the earliest possible moment that a telegraphic despatch had just been received from India. The substance of that despatch he was happy to have in his power at once to communicate to their lordships. The noble earl then proceeded to read to their lordships one or two para graphs from the despatch, announcing the safe arrival of a convoy of provisions at Lucknow, and the fact that troops were being moved up quickly to its relief. (Hear.) The Earl of DERBY said that so far ai the intel:i -! genes went it could not bat be satisfactory to their lordships ; but he might at the same time observe that he bad hoped from the haste with which the noble earl had zisen to communicate the intelligence to the house, that he was in a position to announce the complete relief of the garrison of Lucknow. His object in again addres sing their lordships was, however, not so much to offer any comment upon the despatch as to state, in reply to the remarks which had just fallen from the nohle duke opposite, that he by no means proposed to defend every statement which was made in the red pamphlet, while he was prepared to maintain that considerable and culp able delay had taken place with reference to the dis bandment of the 19th Regiment. He had not complained of the penalty which had been inflicted upon that regi ment as inadequate. The troopsof which it was composed had been guilty of a simple refusal to discharge their duties, for which refusal they had afterwards expressed considerable regret. But the conduct of the soldiers of the 34th had been of a much more heinous character, and yet the punishment awarded to both regiments had been precisely the same. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH asked at what date it had bean proposed to send back the 84th Regiment to Rangoon. The Duke of ARGYLL wa3 understood to say that ;he proposal was made on the Bth of May. CASE OF MR. THOMAS. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE moved fora return of the appointments held by Mr. Thomas in the civil service of the East India Company la the month of Sept., 1854, and of the appointments he may hold up to the date of the latest accounts, distinguishing judicial from any other offices ; also, copies of any correspondence that may have taken place between the Governor or other superior authorities at Madras and Mr. Thomas relative to the case of " Bhawanny Lallah v. Thomas," and the judgment delivered thereupon in the Supreme Court of Madras by Chief Justice Sir Christopher Rawlineon ; and also, copies of any correspondence that may have taken place between the Home Government and the Government of Madras upon the same case. The motion wai agreed to. Their lordships adjourned at a quarter to 8 o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTIMDAY.) The SPEAK= took the chair at 4 o'clock. NEW MEMBER. Mr. Russell took the oaths and his seat for Tavistock, NEW WRIT. On the motion of Mr. HAYTER, a new writ was or dered for the borough of Scarborough, in the room of Earl Mu!grave, who has accepted the office of steward or bailiff of Hempholme. EAST INDIA REVENUE. Mr. ARTHUR MILLS moved for a return of tho revenue derived annually from all sources of taxation in India, from 1852.53 to 1855 56 (in continuation of Parliamentary paper, No. 336, of session 1855). — Agreed to. HOPS. Mr. J. LOCKE moved for accounts of the total num ber of acres of land in the United Kingdom under the cultivaticn of Hops in the year 1857 ; distinguishing the number of acres in each parish ; and the number of pounds' weight charged with duty in each collection ; and the number of pounds' weight charged with duty in each parish of the Canterbury and Rochester collections. And of the amount of duty charged on hops in each collection of the growth of the year 1857; distinguishing the districts, and the old from the new duty in each dis trict ; showing the average amount of duty per ac re i n each collection (in continuation of Parliamentary paper, No. 19, of session 2, 1857.)—Agreed to. JUSTICES OF THE PEACE (IRELAND.) Mr. CAIRNS moved for copies of a letter recent'y addressed by the Lord Chancellor of Ireland to the Lord Lieutenant of the county Down, relative to the appoint ment of justices of the peace ; and of any similar letters addressed to other Lords Lieutenants of counties in Ireland.—Agreed to. tendency of his opinion. But we being in the minority in India, and the natives being in an enormous majority, if to the advantage of superior numbers we conferred upon them all the advantages which the laws conferred upon Europeans the natural result would be a speedy termination to our rule. However, upon the present occasion he only desired to repeat his protest against the declaration of the noble earl, which was not borne out by his own conduct nor by that of his great ancestor during the French war. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE concurred entirely in the views expressed by the President of the Council and of the noble earl below him (Earl Grey), and only wished to correct a mistake into which the noble earl who spoke last had fallen. He (the Marquis Clanri czde) had never objected to the discussion of any event or poL;tical question, neither had his noble friend (Earl Grey), c, hat he had said and what his noble friend had also said was, that it was not the duty of any member of Parliament or public man to weaken the authority of the Government in India when that authority was placed in circumstances of extreme difficulty and danger, while at the same time it was intended to con tinue the government of that country in the same hands. To that opinion he still adhered. He objected to send ing out to the Indian world the idea that the public of this country were dissatisfied with the conduct of those who were intrusted s ith the management of public affairs in India, and yet intended to leave those affairs to be administered by the same hands. The Duke of ARGYLL was desirous of referring to a statement which had been made by the noble earl op- posite (Lord Derby) with reference to the disbandment •f two regiments, the 19th and 34th, and about which there appeared to have been misapprehensions. The conduct of Lord Canning in reference to that affair had been severely commented upon both in the speech of the noble earl and in the pamphlet he had referred to, and it was alleged that the interval which elapsed between the mutinies and the orders of disbandment were the col:sequences of the Governor-General's hesitation and vacillation. Now, the facts were these. The mutiny of the 19th Regiment took place on the 26th or 27th of February. It was a momentary panic, which almost immediately passed away. There had been grave mis conduct on the part of the officer who commanded, and in the interval which elapsed before the disbandment the officers and men of the regiment expressed great regret and repentance. That interval, however, was not owing to any vacillation or hesitation on the p-irt of the Go vernor-General, but to the fact that at the moment there was but one European regiment within 400 miles of the station, and Lord Canning could not have taken serious measures without previously obtaining reinforcements. Within four or five days after hearing of the mutiny the _ . BELFAST RIOTS. Mr. CA.IRNS moved for a copy of the report male by the commissioners for inquiring into the recent riots in Belfast.—Agreed to. CORN. Mr. BASS moved for a return from the inspectors of corn returns of the various mcaures and weights by which corn is sold in each of the towns from which the returns are made, and the mode in which they are re spectively returned, in imperial bughels.—Agreed to. SAVINGS . Sir H. WILLOUGHBY moved BANKS for a return in con tinuation of Parliamentary paper, No. 85, of session 2, 18 57, from Nov. 20, 1956, to Nov. 20, 1357 ; and, in continuation of Parliamentary paper, No. 84, of session 2, 1 857, from Nov. 20, 1356, to Nov. 20, 1857. — Agreed to. SCN LONDON, T I.T•E'SDAY: '.E V EN' NrY;-- the country, and to promote and secure the vg , Fare and prosperity of my people in every part of my dominions." INDIA. _ _ Sir J. PAKINGTON gave notice that he should to-morrow put questions to the President of the Board of Control relative to the papers that have been ordered with reference to India, whether they would contain the memorial sent home from Calcutta, asking for the withdrawal of the Governor-General, and whe ther the Government had any objection to lay on the table of the house all the correspondence that had taken place between them and the Peninsular and Oriental Company relative to the transmission of troops to India. He should also pat a question relative to the state of Lord Clive's fund. JOINT STOCK BANKS. Mr. COWAN gave notice of an amendment to the hon. member for Newcastle, relative to the limited lia bility of joint-stock banks. THE JUNO'S COURTS MARTIAL. Mr. WARREN asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention had been called to a recent naval court-martial held on an officer of her Majesty's ship Juno, and whether any steps were contemplated by the Government in respect thereto. Sir C. WOOD need hardly assure the hon. and learned gentleman that the attention of the Admiralty had been called to the court-martial in question, and that they had observed with the greatest pain that an officer of the character and services of Captain Fremantle, himself the son of one of our most distinguished officer➢, should have placed himself in a position in which he had exposed him self to the severe and merited censure of the Board of Admiralty. (Hear, hear.) At the same time it was only fair that certain circumstances should be known which had weighed with the Board of Admiralty, aad which would no doubt weigh with the House of Com mons in forming its opinion. When Captain Fremantle arrived to take charge of the Australian station he received a letter from the Admiral, complaining of the relaxation of discipline which had taken place on that station. It was certainly true that her Majesty's ships were in some parts of the world so scattered about that it was sometimes impossible to hold courts martial, and naval discipline was therefore with some difficulty upheld under these circumstances. Where it was possible the Admiralty sent out officers of different ranks, so that courts-martial might be held, but this was not always practicable. Cap tain Fremantle had reason to take a stricter view of dia -1 cipline in consequence of the Admiral's letter. He was not himself acquainted with Capt. Fremantle, but he was assured by hon. members that it was impossible he could have been actuated by any other motive than the desire to act in the strict performance of his duty. He believed that the lieutenant brought to court-martial ad mitted that Capt. Fremantle had been a greater sufferer than himself from what had happened. He had had to carry on almost all the executive duties of the ship, and his health had broken down under it. The accounts of the court-martial in the newspapers were substantially correct, and hen, members must have observed that when he appeared before the Court, Capt. Fremantle was quite unable to flee from the duty of a public pro seuttor, which it was incumbent upon him to discharge. He was not in a state either of bodily or mental health to enable him to state the case in such a way as to give an account either of his own conduct or that of the offi cer on his trial. He (Sir C. Wood) did not impugn the verdict of the court-martial, which he thought perfectly just and right, and he was quite of opinion that the lieutenant was entitled to his acquittal. But it made some difference in their view of Captain Fremantle's conduct, and the coarse which the Admiralty had pur sued, when they remembered that he was an officer of high and unblemished character, and of 33 years' ser vice. It would be unjust if these circumstances did not carry some weight. (hear.) At the same time, if the Juno had been remaining in commission, the Board of Admiralty would have felt it to be their duty to super sede Capt. Fremantle. As she was, however, under orders to be paid off, and as she had come home with no officer but the captain to conduct the duty, it would have been inconvenient to have removed him from the ship. It was, therefore, not from any regard or feeling towards Captain Fremantle, but simply for the convenience of the public service, that he was not at once superseded. What the Board felt it to be their duty to do was to write to the Commander-in-Chief at Portsmouth, desiring him to communicate to Captain Fremantle their opinion that, considering all the circumstances, he had been unjust in the course which he had pursued towards those officers; that if there had been grounds for any charge they ought to have been examined into on the spot, and that he ought not to have subjected them to such a length ened period of arrest. (Hear, hear.) Captain Fre mantle would have been superseded if the Juno had re mained longer in commission , but it was thought more convenient to pay her off. A severe censure had been passed. The later remained on record at the Admiralty and at the Commander-in-Chief's (office at Portsmouth —a warning to all officers who might be placed in a si milar position. He thought that, taking into considera tion all the circumstances, and with a proper regard to justice, the house would be satisfied if the Admiralty took no further steps in the matter. (Hear ) THE REMOVAL OF 69TH REGIMENT FROM PLYMOUTH TO PORTSMOUTH. Mr. SCOTT—The 69th Regiment being quartered at Portsmouth, asked her Majesty's Government, what was the advantage and also the expense of moving it from Plymouth to Portsmouth by rail, to embark there, in order to return by sea to Plymouth before departing for the East Indies, and by whose authority it was done . ? Sir J. RA.MSDEN said that he thought the hon. gentleman had been misinformed of the facts of the case. The hon. gentleman appeared to consider that the whole regiment was taken from Plymouth to Portsmouth, there to embark. The circumstances of the case were, that three ships were taken up by the East India Company to convey troops to Alex sndria. Two of the ships went to Plymouth and embarked troops, but the third being a mail ship, and prevented from going to any other port than Portsmouth, one de tachment of the regiment was conveyed from Plymouth to Portsmouth for the purpose of embarkation. The troops were sent to Portsmouth on a communication of the facts to the Board. REFORMATORY SCHOOLS (IRELAND). Mr. BAGWELL asked the Chief Secretary for Ire land, if it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern. ment to introduce a bill for reformatory schools in Ireland this session ? Mr. H. HERBERT said that during the recess Go vernment would give their consideration to the subject, and he hoped, after that, to be able to propose something to the house on the subject that would be satisfactory to all parties. (Hear, hear.) THE SUPPLY OF GUANO. Hr. CAIRD asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any obstruction on the part of the British Commandant at Aden had been offered to the employment, by the guano expedition to the Kooria Mooria. Islands, of Arab and other labourers not natives of India, and whether Government had taken steps to remove such obstruction. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that labourers had been obtained from various ports, but with regard to Aden, he had been informed that through some mistake the labourers of that place had been prevented going to the Kooria Mooria Islands, but he had taken care to call the attention of the East India Board to the circumstance. The Board had the subject under their consideration. THE BRITISH ENGINEERS AT NAPLES. Mr. M. MILNES called the attention of the noble lord (Palmerston) to the state of the British engineers at Naples, having been informed that the Government had received additional information relative to their condition, Lord PALMERSTON said that since he addressed the house on Friday night a communication had been received from Acting Consul Parkes, and from it he found that the Rev. Mr. Pugh's statement did not give a correct statement of the condition of these un fortunate men. The contradictory statement arose from the man not knowing the rev, gentleman, and he thought hon. members would fully comprehend the pri soners not being so communicative to a stranger as to the acting consul, in the presence of the father of one of the prisoners. What they complained of,he was:afraid, was no exceptional case, because it was well known that the Neapolitan prisons were really a disgrace to a civilised country—(hear)—and that the treatment prioners were there subjected to were more fitting a barbarous age than the present time. However, the inquiry showed that the prisoners had not ex?erienced anything like torture except the unnecessary suffering of being handcuffed and strapped in the manner known to the public. The re maining part of the noble lord's statement was similar to the narrative published in The Sun of Saturday. Lord J. RUSSELL asked if the noble lord would lay the despatch on the table of the house. Lsrd PALMERSTON said he thought there wag no objection to that course. He reserved to himself the right of expunging anything of a confidential nature. CONYNGLIAM asked whether any steps were likely to be taken to set the matter to right.' ? He wished to know if the lives and liberties of Englishmen were to be trifled with in this manner. (Cries of " Order.") Lord PALMERSTON said that at present these men were confined on a charge of having violated the Neapolitan law. The Neapolitan government was entitled to inquire into that charge, and all this country could do was to see that the man were brought to a speedy trial—tbat it was considered fairly—and that they had the best legal advice that could be obtained in that c)untry. (Hear, hear.) The subject then dropped. PENSION TO GEN. HAVELOCK, K Lord PALMERSTON brought up a message from her Majesty recommending that a pension of 1,0001. a year should be settled on General Havelook for hie dis- inguished services in India. (Loud cheers.) He moved ,bat it be taken into consideration to-morrow. (Cheers.) —Agreed to. SUPPLY. Mr. WILSON moved that the house should to-mor row go into supply. Agreed to. INDEMNITY BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the second reading of this bill. Mr. GLADSTONE said there were two points he wished to mention in reference to that bill, and to which he thought he might pall the attention of the house con sistently with the beneficial understanding that was come to on Friday night as to the general discussion. One was a question w'aich might be said to relate to t'ee wording of the bill. It was with respect to the manner of drawing the first clause. The clause was as follows: " All issues of Bank of England notes, made by the Governor and Company of the Bank of England, and all acts done with respect to issues, and the taking of secu rities in the issue department shall be confirmed and made valid." Now, it appeared to him that there was something anomalous in a direct indemnity from that house to the Governor and Company of the Bank, so framed as to include acts of which they knew nothing ; the governor and company not being a public body, in the sense of being responsible to that house. His ob jection was founded on principle, and if so, the mode of curing it might be adopted without inconvenience. He should propose to put a public body, responsible to that house, between Parliament and those undefined acts , . The object would be gained if, instead of iadem nifying the Bank with respect to all those acts done by them in this matter, which should have received the certified approval of the Commissioners of the Treasury; who, being a responsible body, would be interposed between Parliament and the acts of an irresponsible body. (Hear, hear.) The other point was one which, in these tines, it was not fashionable for the representa tives of a great commercial nation to refer to. This was a question that seemed to have escaped his right hon. friend on Friday night, but he had no wish to press it now if he preferred delaying his answer. The question related to the profits of the issues, which had been made, and divided itself into three parts. The first war, whether in principle, it was under stood that the profits of those issues would go not to the Bank of England, but to the Government. In his opi nion those issues were, etrickly speaking, public money resting on the security of public faith ; and he was even sorry that the form had been observed of passing the security for those moneys to the issue department of the Bank of England ; for it tended to obscure the truth, which was, that these were moneys issued by Government, as much as Exchequer Bills, on the faith of Parliament. The next point was, how were those profits to be computed ; for there had been a great deal of discussion as to that, and he was anxious to know if the public were to receive the profits of the issue, or the profits of discount. The profits of issue were generally computed at 1 per cent., while the profits of discount stood at ten per cent. According to which of those rates were the public to benefit The only remaining portion of his question was this —the other night he understood his right hon. friend to say that the amount of issue made was the amount of issue to the public. Now it appeared to him (Mr. Gladstone) that, strictly speaking, the amount of issue was the amount of issue—the amount which proceeded from the issue department. He wanted t 0 know, therefore, whether the profits were to be calculated on the amount of issue which had been made by the issue department, or only on that part of it which had gene forth into circulation, above the legal issue. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that, though he was no party to the understanding which was come to on Friday night, after seven hon. gentlemen had spoken for seven hours, occupying fifteen columns of the morning news papers ; he was perfectly willing to conform to it, especially as he believed no good was to be derived from a continued currency debate. He thought, however, that the house were about to pass an indemnity bill on very slender evidence. That evidence, so far as it h a d y e t gone , cons i s t e d o f a state ment, eertainly a very clear statement, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and some Bank correspondence. He did not at all question that the indemnity ought to be given, but he wished to know whether it had come to the know ledge of her Majesty's Government that there hail been any thing in the shape of unfair action on the currency of the country, and he asked the question with all the more de termination, as it appeared from the evidence of Mr. Chap man that it was quite possible for large speculators to influence the currency very materially. At page 481, Mr. Chapman gave an instance of the kind, where a capitalist sold Consols to the extent of 1,000,0001., and retained the notes himself, which, acting upon a low circulation, exer cised a very material influence on the currency. He should wish to know whether the Government were aware of any thing of that kind having been done recently. Had there been fair play towards the Bank of England ? Before, it had examined that question through the instrumentality of one of its committees, the house ought not to pass the bill. It had nothing to do with the general question of currency, but had a very important bearing on the subject before them. Mr. CAYLEY said he did not agree with the paragraph in the Queen's Speech which referred the monetary dis turbance to the working classes. The commercial classes had been the victims, and had been made the scapegoats of a vicious currency system, which he believed to be the cause of the monetary crisis we had recently passed through. It had been too much the habit of public men in this country, who had had a hand in the formation of that system, to vindicate themselves, and to throw on others the onus of the consequences of their own want of sagacity. It was clearly not the result of over speculation in the present case. Over speculators were constantly finding their way into the Gazette, and there had been no extraordinary number of them lately. Ou the other hand, it was well known that there had been a largedrain of bul lion to India and the Continent, combined with a general suspension in America. Those causes were suflicient in themselves to create a degree of apprehension which no bank could withstand, and he doubted whether even the Bank of England itself could.j The Glasgow Bank failed on the 10th or 11th, and on the 10th the rate of discount was raised to 10 per cent. The Bank directors alleged that the pressure was severe and sudden, and necessarily les sened the reserve. Previous warnings should have been kept in recollection. In 1825 upwards of 100 banks failed, and paid 17s. Gd. in the pound.,Subsequentlyto thatperiod joint stock banks were established. In his evidence before a com mittee of that house Air. Cobden attributed the oscilla tions which occurred to the conduct of the Bank of Eng land. Everythlog proved that the present system ought to be altered, or that it should be carried out. What he wanted to show to the Government was this; that they first of all stated that the letter to the Bank was occa sioned by the failure of joint-stook banks, as well as by the failure of certain houses in the American trade; but in stead of saying that, they should have stated that the letter was caused by the drain on the bullion. When he made this observation he did not wish it to be understood that he was an advocate for the present system of joint stock banks. He did not think the Bank of England had any right to complain, as it did not pay any interest on deposits which the joint-stock banks did. He could not help observing, that as there were many commercial men in the house, he felt astonished that they had not risen to repel the insinuations which had been cast upon them in the course of the debate. It would be recollected that soon after the passing of the bill of 1841, the competition of the Bank of England with the joint-stook banks reduced the rate of discount two per cent., and made money easier. The low rate of discount enabled the labourer to obtain employment, and generally gave a stimulus to trade. As regarded the late monetary crisis, it sh ou ld b e remem b ere d that since the peace there had been no fewer than ten such visitations, whi c h had the effect o f sacr ifi c i ng a l arge thatital; and he saw as pl a i n ly as he saw the of sun commercial noon da ap ythese periodical disasters amount a c must continue. Now such a system should be inquired into. Gold had been made the standard of value by law, but the real standard of value was labour. He believed the whole of their commercial system was a system of sufferance, and disapproved of it because it was not prac ticable to meet the exigencies of the great commercial com munity. It was not their banking system which produced distress, but the commercial community were asked to do what it was utterly impossible they could perform. Mr. CONINGHAM did not rise to oppose the Bill of In demnity—far from it; he thought the country was highly indebted to the noble lord at the head of the Government for the manner in which he interposed at a critical moment, and relieved the country from a crisis which threat ened its convulsion, He regretted only one thing, and that was, that the Government had not gone beyond the Bill of Indemnity, and proposed to abrogate the law of 1814, which though not the cause of the recent commercial distress had yet most seriously increased the severity. He listened attentively, the other evening, to the clear and lucid statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; the clear and lucid diagnosis of the disease; and he thought the right hon. gentleman gave up the whole case of the act when he attempted to limit the issues of the Bank. The noble lord the member for the City of London, La declared himself to be the warm advocate of the bill of 1844, and the other night he indulged in some declamation upon the great principles of the currency. He referred to the three great panics of 1825, 1817, and 1857. In 1825 he admitted that the Bank was run out to within 100,0001. of its last sovereign. But what was the remedy applied then ? Why, the noble lord admitted that it was the suc cessful issue of paper. That restored confidence, and gra dually brought back the gold to the coffers of the Bank. In 1841, the bill of Sir Robert Peel passed. That illus trious statesman took up the theory which it contained rather hastily ; but it was a theory based on a fallacy, which sooner or later must be exploded. Well, in 1847 another panic occurred, and what was the remedy for that? Not the restriction of the paper circulation, but its exten sion. Again on that occasion the remedy did not fail. In 1857 another panic occurs, and again there was not a re laxation but an extension of issues, and he for one only regretted that there should have been any check placed on the larger and further extension of the paper issues of the Bank by depriving the Bank of the profits arising from it. To show to what extent theories might be carried the Chancellor of the Exchequer had quoted the opinion of one governor of the Bank, who stated in his evidence before one of the committees, that the remedy for panic was — what ? why, nut the relaxation but the contraction of the issues, though he doubted whether it was worth while to apply the remedy. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) He thought it behoved the country to take this matter into its most serious consideration. It was not merely the truth or falsehood of a theory that was at stake, but the very existence of a large number of valuable subjects. It was perfectly certain that the only check, the only necessary ch ec k, t o li m it the issue of bank notes was, that the notes sho u ld b e p a yable ou demand. It had been clearly shown that while such a security was en forced, bank notes do not necessarily i n fl uen ce exchanges or prices, and that being s o it was of the utmost import ance to the trade and commerce of the country that there should be a large extension of the issues from the coffers f the Bank of England. -- Mr. MALINS entirely concurred in the object s of the bill, and believed the Governm en t d es erved great praise for the course they had pursued, but it should have b een done earlier. He could not help expressing his surprise and re gret that what was done on 12th Nov. had not been adopted in Oct., by which much disaster might have been prevented. He was also of opinion that Parliament ought not to have been allowed to separate without her Majesty's Govern ment arming themselves with the power they now bought an indemnity for, to prevent the dreadful effects of the panic then hanging over the country. Of course he (Mr. Malins) was not as well inf orme d on nnuiercial questions, in consequence of his professional pursuits, but he warned the Government in Fob. last of the events which were ap proaching, and on the 11th May, when the reserv e in the B a nk was reduced to 31 millions, and the rate of discount Gi per cent., he urged the right hon. gentleman the Chan cellor of the Exchequer not to allow Parliament to sepa rate without arming himself with a remedy to meet the, threatened evil. He was, however, told that the worst wa s over—that all would be right, and' be was advi s ed not to be at all alarmed on the matter.' In June the discount also from 3i to 5 milli ons , so that it would have cent., and in J u ly to si. The reserve, ibwneacesrneraeludeed to 6 per impossible for him, knowing the distaste of the house to a discussion on such matters, to call attention to the subject. In Sept. and Oct. symptoms o f the disasters w hich had since come upon the country made their appear ance, and in Nov. the Government was obliged to interpose. E El iit E - P • - , S. 1S tfr_ Now he thought that a final end ought to be put to the bill of 1841, which had already caused so much distress to the country. On the 3th Oct. the amount of reserve notes in the Bank was 4,600,0001., and on the sth November, it had gone down to 2,200,0001., and if the Government had not interposed on the 12th, it must have absolutely stopped payment. It was said that the directors might have saved themselves by stopping the discounts, but that would have brought ruin and disaster on the whole of the commercial community. He could not help expressing hie regret that a clause was int ro d uce d i nto li m i t i ng the issue to 28 days after the meeting of Parliament, and with a rate of discount fixed at 10 per cent. If the discount were to go down lower than that, then the limits of the act of 1814 were to come into operation. Surely, such a discount must be the ruin of moderate traders who had no capital, and to whom such a rate of discount would be ruin. When a discount of 10 per cent. existed in the Bank of England for first-class paper it was not unreasonable to suppose that it would be three or four per cent. higher in other banks, and surely no commercial transactions could be entered into while that state of thingpontinued. He trusted the Government would not think it necessary to persist with that part of the proposal, for if they required such an issue of paper as the country demanded, nothing could be worse than to continue the rate of interest as it then stood. Mr. CROSSLEY said he was engaged in commercial pursuits all his life, and yet he approached the present sub ject with great diffidence, because it is ono of the most difficult which could be considered. According to the speech of the right h on gentleman the memer for Buckinghamshire, on Thursday night, they had got them selves " into a regular fix," in relation to the Bank of Eng land. Now, what was the Bank of England ? It was a joint-stock banking company, with certain privileges. He must confess that in his opinion the Government deserved great credit for the course they had recently taken, and that was the feeling of all the manufacturers and merchants with syhom he was acquainted. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman the member for Oxfordshire, however, who was a colleague of the right honourable gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire, said that the Government deserved impeachment for having broken the law, while he would say that they would deserve impeachment had they not broke the law. Looking at the leaders of the Opposition in the one house and the other, he (Mr. Crossley) thought that the country might infer from them the course contemplated to be taken, and see that they certainly ran in pairs. Although he did not entirely approve of the Bank Act of 1844, he was yet somewhat in its favour. Its opponents spoke of it as " like a candle burning at both ends," with a foreign and do mestic drain upon it—the gold going out of the country, and the internal drain of gold operating at the same time ; and they predicted that that drain might go on until a sovereign would not be left in the Bank of England. Much had been said as to the issue of the 14,500,0001. or 16,500,0001., and the question was raised whether the power ought to be left to the Government or to the Bank of England. The noble lord the member for the City of London said that the Government ought to have the power to control the matter, and other hon. members said that the power ought to be vested in the Bank of England. He put it to the house whether they might not so deal with the question as to give to it an elasticity ? And he thought that instead of leaving it either to the Government or to the Bank of England, they might settle it by tho question of discount, when either above or below 5 per cent. on the 14,500,0001., and when the time might come, it would still be in the optiooof Government to stop in and advise the suspension of the law. There was one great anomaly, and that was the state of the law in Scotland and in Ireland in respegt to issue, and the house he thou g ht oug ht cer t a i n ly not to allow the present dnoment to pass away without assimilating the law relating to notes as a legal tender, and thus guard against the drain of gold which recently proved so embarrassing. He was of opinion that they ought to have only one bank of issue, and that they ought to pay the party interested for their trouble, and that the pro fits of the transfers ought to go to the reduction of the taxation of the country. (Hear, hear.) He thought certainly that those profits ought not to be given to any private class, but rather for the benefit of the whole community. He remembered that some years ago in New York he was told that they had then completed only about 300 miles of railrcad to Chicago, and that in a short space of tim e th ey h a d i ncreased the line to 3,000 miles, and shortly after that to 6,000 miles. There was now a complaint that much of the capital of this country was invested in speculations in America, but, however that might be, it was desirable that men should pursue such a course as would mitigate the evils from which the country an , l trade were suffering. Mr. PHILLIPS believed the Government did that which they felt they ought to do. Let them look to what was really the state of the case. g There were three causes which, in his opinion, led to the existing embarrassment. Firstly, the wars in Russia and in India—secondly, the conduct of certain banks, first, of the Liverpool Borou g h Bank, and afterwards of the Glasgow ; and lastly, the em barrassment brought upon the city of London by the con duct of bill-brokering houses. He felt that the Bank of England, from the course which they pursued, appre hended that there were indications of storms ahead. The Bank foresaw it in raising the rate of discount a year and a half ago; and if they contrasted the conduct of the ex isting directors with that of the directors of 1817, it would be found that they had not raised the rate of discount until the last moment. What was the result of that ? He be lieved he was right in stating that no less than six directors succumbed to the pressure at that time. If, then, they took certain conduct of the Liverpool and Glasgow Banks he thought the commercial world ought to protest against a system which involved infinite damage to those who were trying to obtain an honest livelihood, and he felt that it was a bold proceeding to see the city of Glasgow proclaim ing to the world that their misdeeds were the mere result of accident. He trusted means would be devised to put an end, and that suddenly, to the system of bill-brokering in the city of London. Wh o were th e bill-b ro k ers, and wat wore they composed of ? They were composed of men who received from various parties in England their surplus capital—those persons being tempted to send their surplus capital into the hands of those brokers. He was not going to say anything against those brokers, but he must say it behoved them to take care into whose hands they placed the money entrusted to them. What he asked, would have been the effect of the stoppage of some of the brokers on some of the commercial houses ? There would be great dis asters. But from the moment the Government relieved the commercial interests, from that very moment every trans action would receive a fresh interest; and he must say that everything that took place from that time, must and would be beneficial to the country. (Hear.) They had at the present mills with the option of working short time or no time; but he trusted they would soon be ab:o to get produce cheap, an i again to set work going, which would be a benefit to all people engaged and interested in manufac tures. They could not at the present tell whether they were to have highprices, or low prices, and they were in a state of uncertainty. With respect to the parties who at tributed the existing distress to certain causes, he, for one, must say that he was of the same opinion as Lord Over stone. He wished to see the working man in the posses. sion of that comfort which he ought to have ; and he wished to see no power in any bank to issue, bat in the Bank of England, with a reserve of sovereigns in their coffers to meet every note they issue. (Hear, hear.) The country banks wished to have the power to issue their own notes ; but he thought great care and caution should be taken in that matter. A meeting had recently been called at Manchester, at which a resolution was passed by the merchants of that important place, that they would refuse any notes issued by those banks, and the consequence was that the banks in the district did not issue notes; and it subsequently appeared that some of the parties came for ward and stated that it would be almost impossible, if not next to impossible, for them to have withstood the pres sure had they relied on the issue of local notes. He men tioned those matters to show that he thought they ought to have but one great commercial bank of issue. Mr. NE WDBGATE said the hon. gentleman who had just sat down had expressed opinions that were very cur rent, and very much entertained by a large body of the people of this country. With respect to the produce of cotton, he himself could not condemn the course taken by Government in relation to that staple article. His prin cipal object in now rising was to ask the right honourable gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer a question which had already been put to her Majesty's Ministers— whether there had been any interference with any capital of large amount, the operation of which in relation to the issue and demand for notes, might have had an effect in producing the crisis ? That was a most important sub ject, and one to which he thought the tight honourable gentleman ought to give an answer. While the Bank of England had now to contend with difficulties the most enormous, there was capital to a vast amount in few hands. They had, for instance, the house of Rothschild, who, with five houses, commanded 30,000,0001. He therefore must say that it was essential that they should have such an establishment, and he thought the house ought to be in formed whether any difficulties of the sort he had referred to had arisen, and been the cause of the Government having issued the letter to which so much reference had been made, and for which he, for ono, sincerely thanked them in the name of all his constituents. Those who relied on bullion should remember that the question was not merely a com mercial question. He thought that the circumstances in which the country was now placed— considering that they were involved in a great struggle for the maintenance of her Majesty's power in In .ia— ought to lead the Govern ment to be explicit, and that they ought to give every possible information upon that subject also. He thought the subject was ripe for legislation, and that mea ns m i g ht be taken to come to an understanding with the Bank of England to prevent the recurrence of that establishment to a rate of interest below 3 per cent., since the low rate of interest bad been found to stimulate those speculations which every one so much condemned. If Lord Overstone had his will, and it were possible that the question of issue could be separated altogether from banking, and the power of the Bank of England thus limited, the result would be to put it in the power of one or two of the large merchant houses to contract the currency of the country. It was unbecoming that there should be a law which might allow the unauthorised interference of the Government of the country in the currency in such a measure and at such a period as in fact materially to affect and alter the value of money. The question of the noble baronet the member for Evesham was one of very great importance ; and he trusted the Government would give an explicit answer to it, and state whether the currency of the country had, to their knowledge, been affected by the action upon it of specu lation. Mr. BUCHANAN said that the opinion of his GlasTow constituents ou the subject now under co usideration had b •► characterised by the noblelord the member for the city of Lon don as wild and revolutionary. He believed the noble lord referred principally to the opinions expressed by the Chamber of Commerce of Glasgow, which was an assem blage founded by the friends of the great Adam Smith, and rhich had always been distinguished for the soundness of its opinions. The Chamber of Commerce was well known to many members of the house. The first principle which the Chamber had always advanced was the principle of the convertibility of paper money. Another principle which they entertained was, that there could be nothing more injurious than an excessive issue, and that paper being convertible against gold, it was altogether impossible that it could be over-issued. The Chamber of Commerce had also drawn a distinction which did not appear to be suffi- cicetly borne in mind in that house—he meant the dis tinction between currency and capit (Hear, hear.) With respect to the present commercial difficulty, it must ha looked upon as one arising from causes affecting cur rency, and the act of 1844, certainly at such a time as this, aggravated the crisis, for every one had wrapped himself around with his own credit, and surrounded himself with his friends, destroying both credit and confidence together. He had stated what were the opinions of the Chamber of Commerce of Glasgow, and it was for the house to condemn or approve of those opinions, and not to condemn that Chamber upon a judgment formed from statements in the, public prints of what the opinions of the people of Glasgow were. He hoped to see the time when there would be a' thorough revision of the balking system, particularly with regard to the practice of re-discounting in the London market, of boi rowing upon the security of their own stock,' of excessive accommodation to those not worthy of it, and before all, of keeping small reserves, or no reserve at al; at credit with their London bankers • on all of w hi c h; points ho thought imp rovemen t s might effeeted. He did! not mean to vindicate the Western Bank, or any other bank, bat at the same time he was not at all ashamed of having been present at the meeting which had been referred to. There were present at that meeting many noblemen and gentlemen of great influence, in no way connected with the Western Bank, and the object of that meeting was not to restore that bank, but to see if something could not be done to put an end to the existing panic. He should have been glad to have seen the Western Bank restored, for the sake of depositors, there being a large amount of family money deposited with that bank. A great deal of good would thus have been accomplished if that in stitution had been restored to public confidence, and it was upon these grounds, and not that they had any sym pathy with reckless credits, that so many gen tlemen wished to see the restoration of the Western lsank of Scotland. Ho believed that the condition of the currency under the Act of 1844, was a great credit to the country ; and he ad vocated the placing of power in the hands of the directors. of the Bank of England, to relax the stringent effects of that act on occasions of emergency. Mr. KIRK said he might congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the agreement that seemed to exist on two points—namely, the notes should be payable in gold, and that the Act of 181.4 was no longer tenable. The convertibility of notes was not dependent on the Act of 1844, but on the Act of 1819 ; and, therefore, the intro duction of the fortner act added in no way to the security. With regard to overpowering the Bank of England Direc tors to relax the stringent operations of the act that was entrusted to them, he considered they might as well be without the law altogether, or abrogate it at once. The Act of 1844 was founded upon two fallacies. It was be lieved that it would stop over-speculation, and put an end to over-trading. But over-trading had occurred, and over speculation was the cause of the present panic. The other fallacy was in supposing that if they had not given such act there would be an over-issue of notes in Ireland. But the contrary was proved to be the case in Ireland. It was quite as impossible for a bank in this country as in any other to issue and maintain an over-issue of notes, as it was to put a quart of water into a pint bottle. The great error of the Act of 1814 was to apply an unyielding and invariable rule to a thing so fluctuating as currency, and in that respect, as well as others, it had been productive of much injury. (Hear, hoar.) As to joint-stock banks, be thought them one of the best things a country could possess, if properly mana g ed, and with unlimited lia bility. Before concluding , he begged to make one sugges tion, which, if adopted, he thought would do much to pre vent the issue of speculative paper and over-trading, and that was to make the drawing or acceptance of a bill of exchange " for value received" where no value was given or received, a fraud, punishable as such. (Hear, hear.) He should support the present bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I will first answer the question which was put to me by the hon. baronet the member for Evesham, inasmuch as it involves the important question raised by him as to the necessity of a preliminary inquiry, to be conducted, I presume, by a select committee, or by the examination of witnesses at our bar, before the second reading of this Bill shall be agreed to. The hon. baronet asked me whether it was within the knowledge of the Government that there had been a con spiracy or confederacy a certain bill brokers, bill dis counters, and other persons in the metropolis for the pur pose of intimidating and influencing the Bank of England with the view—l do not exactly know what the view might be, but with the view, I presume, of embarrassing their operations to such an extent as to render necessary the interference of the Government. That, I apprehend, 1 was the question which he put to me. The answer which I have to make is, that I have no knowledge of the exist ence of any such combination or confederacy—(hear, hear) —and, moreover, that having had o ccas i on d ur i ng thi s crisis to watch with great closeness all the successive events as they occurred--having had access necessarily to authen tic information, and having availed myself of it to the best of my ability—l have no belief in the existence of any such conspiracy. (Hear, hear.) And therefore, unless the house shall have placed before it some more specific, de tailed, and authentic information than the hon. baronet was able to bring before it, it does not seem to me that it would be called upon, or, indeed, justified, upon a mere suggestion or surmise of that sort, without any authentic testimony to rest upon, in instituting a solemn inquiry at the bar of this house. Unless, then, the house shall re ceive some information of an authentic character in that respect, I hope that it will accede to the second reading of this bill. I will now proceed to advert to the questions put to me by my right hon. friend the member for the University of Oxford. He objected in the next place to the manner in which the first clause of this bill is drawn. He said that the Bank of England not being an official de partment of the Government, it would not be regular to confirm its acts, and that the only acts which the Legisla ture could confirm would be those of some member of the Executive Government. Now, in answer to that remark, I would state that the Bank of England, though certainly not a part of the Executive Government, is intrusted with important functions which are partly of a public nature. One obligation of the Bank of England —an obligation by force of a statutory enactment -has been violated at the suggestion of the Executive Government, and it is on ac count of that infraction of the law that we have brought forward the Indemnity Bill which is now under the con sideration of the house • and I apprehend th a t th ere i s nothing in the smallest degree irregular or improper in this house confirming the act of the Bank of England, which involves a departure from the Act of 1841. There are acts of the Company and Governor of the Bank of England which are not in conformity with the statutory obliga tions imposed upon that corporation, and in framing this bill the Government were advised that it would be proper to borrow a precedent from the act by which the Bank of England was legislated for in the year 1797, when the first, departure was, I believe, made from its then statutory ob ligations. Athat time, when Mr. Pitt was Prime Minis ter, cash payments were suspended by the Bank, and that departure from their obligations was confirmed by an Act of Parliament, in which there was a clause which referred to a minute in Council, and which provided that all acts done by the said Governor and Company cf the Bank of England by the direction of, or in pursuance of the said minute in Council, shall be and are hereby ratified and confirmed. Well, sir, that. I think is a sufficient precedent for the phraseology which we have adopted in the present bill. (Uttar, hoar.) Thorn knol. S n lalula has been raised by my right hon. friend. My right hon. friend referred to the issue of the Bank of 2,000,000/. from the Issue Department, and he likened that issue to a Government loan, and said that it was of the nature of an issue of Exchequer bills. Now, I confess, with great deference to the accuracy and knowledge of my right hon. friend, that I cannot quite accede to that doc trine. It seems to me that it is of the nature of an issue wholly different to an issue of Exchequer bills, which are instruments issued by the Government under the authority of acts of Parliament, and which have attaching to them particular legal incidents; whereas in this case all that the Bank has done has been to make an issue of 2,000,0001, upon securities, as it is generally authorised to do by act of Parliament. I am aware that these 2,000,0001. are in excess of the limit imposed by law, but they are in their nature precisely analagous to those 14,000,0001. which the Bank is authorised to issue by act of Parliament, and therefore I do not see the justice of my right hon. friend's comparison. My right hon. friend again wishes to know whether the Government intend to make any and what arrangement with the Bank with regard to the excess of interest, and whether that interest will be borne - to the public account. Now, Sir, as the matter Is still in progress, and as the Bank has not yet announced that the excess has been entirely withdrawn, I have not thought it my duty to come to any definite conclusion upon the subject, and I think that the house will agree with me that it would not be desirable to come to a conclusion upon the subject until the day shall arrive when the Bank can announce that the issue has re turned to the limit which has been fixed by law. These, Sir, are my answers to the questions of my right hon. friend, but there are one or two other points upon which I wish to make a few brief observations. _ The Mort and learned member for Wallingford has expressed an opinion that the rate of discount ought not to have been fixed at so high a rate as 10 per cent., and he appeared to me to suggest that it would be desirable to allow the Bank to diminish the rate of discount without putting an end to the present relaxation. Now, in answer to that suggestion, I wish to remark that when the first letter was issued the rate of discount was 6 or 7 per cent., and the- Govern ment of the day made a condition, in granting a relaxa tion, that the rate of discount should not be less than 8 per cent. [Mr. Malins—" It was a very bad precedent."] Very well, but I was going to remark that we have not quite followed that precedent, an-1 that element which the hon. and learned gentleman condemns is excluded from the present bill, because the Government have not them selves fixed upon any rate of discount, but have simply adopted that which they found in existence--a rate which was caused directly by the spontaneous act of the Bank, and without any suggestion whatever upon the part of the Government, and which was in existence before the issu ing of the letter. All, therefore, that the Government did was to adopt the rate of discount which they found in existence. I certainly will admit that 10 per cent, is a very high rate of discount, but when we bear in mind the great importance of arresting the foreign drain of gold, and preventing its revival, I think that this house and the Government would not be exercising a sound judgment if they did not insist upon a condition that the existing rate of discount should be maintained until a more favourable state of things shall have arrived. (Hear, hoar.) There is now only one other point to which I wish to call the attention of the house, and that is to a repetition of a statement which I have heard in other quartera, but which I should never have expected to hear from the mouth of the hon. member for North Warwickahire(Mr.Newdegate). The hon. gentleman says that the effect of this issue of 2,000,0001. is to alter the value of every man's property in the country. Mr. NEWDEGATE was understood to explain that what he had said WM, that the value of the currency would . , be lessened. R of ef th th e e h E oi X i. e ge ll u E tl Q em Tj a E n ß-- , wAassltnhaot deTrshteeoedifhAeNargeEurjmLea this ffec issuet the valuewou ld f every depreciate man's the property, r c o u p r e r r e t n y c , y a , n and I would w a s asto nishedthus a to hear that statement from the hon. gentleman, because ecauselalways considered that both himself anti colleague were eminently favourable to a large issue of paper— (hear, hear)—not always guided by the convertibility of tha note. (" No," from Mr. Newdegate.) Well, then, to a large issue of paper which they have appeared to me to think will in some mysterious manner greatly increase the prosperity of the country ; and I confess that having m a d e some progress in satisfying those views by authorising the Bank of England to issue in excess for a temporary object, I am disappointed at meeting with so little gratitude from those hon. gentlemen. (" _Hear, hear," and laughter.) When we are told that we are altering the value of every man's property in this country, I presume that it is meant that we are altering it for the worse, because if for the better then it is not a charge against the Government ; and therefore, if I understand the hon, gentleman cor rectly, he charges us with depreciating the value of every man's property. (" No," from Mr. Newdegate,) Well, if that be not the meaning, what is ? (A. laugh.) Mr. NEWDEGATE made an explanation across the table which did not reach the gallery. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I still return to what I said bafore, and .f think I have a to expect gratitude from the hon. gentlf roan, instead of an accusation. Perhaps the hout , e will allow me to explain a matter in relation to an argument which has been used by an hon. member this evening with regard to which there has been as it seems to me some misunderstanding. It was suggested the other evening that the effect of the issue of these 2 ,000,0:10/. would b e a depreciation of the currency. I said I could not understand how it could be alleged that the currency was debased when the notes so issued were received at their full value—when every 51. note so issued was received in exchang e for five sovereigns at the Bank of England, or w h en any person in the country is willing to tak it at that value. This, I confess, is whatt I currency by the d e p rec i a ti on or deb. ment of a pap itshowvhaelnuethwehviaelhueitaptuwrphoierhtsstoochbpeaarp.ar ci h rcu t lates isles be the commonly understood moaningtolessolteeetno cur rency. I remember once having a maven That aaat seemsio depreciatedi with a g tleman who was at Paris during the French R,evolution;and who told me that the value of assignats was so much de preciated that on going into the theatre you took an assig nat of 300 or 400 francs out of your pocket and gave it to the check-taker, and you did not think it worth 3 our while asking for change. These were depreciated assignats. If an assignat of 300 or 400 passed for only 3 or 4 francs, one understands the meaning of depreciation. That is the sense in which I deny that the issue of this extra 2,000,0901, of notes has depreciated or debased the currency. But then, it is said, there is another meaning of the word deprecia tion, and that when the exchanges are adverse— when the value of gold falls in this country, and there is consequently a motive for its exportation to foreign countries, the value of the entire currency falls, an d i n t h at sense the currency is depreciated. Ido not mean to dispute that the word may be used in that sense. But, then, in that sense, be it remarked, the gold of the currency is depreciated just as much as the paper. There is no inequality in the values of the gold and paper ; and that is an operation to which all currencies are liable in the fluctuation of the values of the precious metals in different countries. It may be an inconvenience, but it is not an evil against which the law can provide. But the depreciation of the currency, in the common acceptation of the term, by which the paper does not pass at its true, legal, and proper value—at the value which it nominally bears---is an evil against which legis lation can provide. It seems to me that to confound these two ideas is to confound things essentially different in their nature, and when I denied that these two millions of notes caused a depreciation of the currency, I used the express sion in the commonly received, and not in the other sense. (Hear.) _ _ Mr. SPOONER repudiated, on his own part and on that of his hon. colleague (Mr. Newdegate), the advocacy of as unlimited issue of convertible paper. He maintained , however, that every note which promised to pay i n gold ought to be made to p a y i n go ld. W e h ad a currency purporting on the face of it to pay in gold • and yet everybody knew that that profession was a perfect fraud. (No, no.) He repeated that the issue of notes professing to pay in gold and trusting that they never could be asked 50 to pay them was a fraud upon the face of it, and ought never to be continued. H e h a d a l so argued that we could not have a sufficient currency for carrying on the trade of this country by means of paper convertible into gold; and, instead of such a currency, he said, let us openly issue $ national paper convertible into everything else but gold, and enabling every man to pay his debts and his taxes--lb paper issued from the public Exchequer, and received again in payment of taxes. Our currency should not be ono which foreign events could completely overturn, breaking the terms of every man ' s b arga i n w ith ou t our having any power to control it. Formerly, when our currency was payable in gold, it was payable in gold coin not liable to be exported. It was net a marketable commodity free to is exported, but it was coin marked and set apart, the ex portation of which was prohibited by heavy penalties. That restriction had, however, been since taken away; and hence the essential difference between our gold cur. rency now and the system adopted when that great states. man Mr. Pitt declared that gold should not be our master but our servant, and came forward to adapt the currency to the wants of the country. England was now in the midst of a great Indian crisis, and was she to allow her efforts to be crippled by a question of gold ? Let the national security be turned into a sort of currency sufficient to maintain our local arrangements. Let the Bank issue notes according to their own discretion, and let those notes be payable in gold, and then we should be sire to find a way of preventing a drain of gold from this country. That would be a much more legitimate mode than the high rate of discount now adopted to check thedrain, and which not only prevented the gold from going abroad, but broke every current engagement between man and man at home. He could not conceive how it had entered anybody's head that the issue of the extra 2,000,0001. of notes had depre• elated the currency. He cordially thanked the Chan• cellor of the Exchequer for w hat he had done, although his course had been attended by two drawbacks—viz., that it was pot taken half soon enough, and that it was accom panied by the limitation regarding the 10 per cent. The latter point ought to have been left to the discretion of the Bank. Mr. INGRAM thought that if the limit had been fixed at 8 instead of 10 per cent, it would have been quite high enough. If they wished to draw more gold into the Bank of England they ought to legalise the issue of 4,000, 0 ° 4 ' or 5,000,0001. o f 1/. no t es . H e h oped that the Ch anc ellor of the Exchequer would give these two suggestions his NMI consideration, and take the necessary steps for their ad°l 3. tion. The second reading of the bill was then agreed to, and the committee fixed for to-morrow (this day). INDIAN INTELLIGENCE. Colonel FRENCH said he had heard that telegraphic news had just been received by the Government from It dia, containing information of the relief of Lucknow. Ii such were the case perhaps the noble viscount would take. the opportunity of announcing the fact before the boar broke up. Lord P . ALUERSTON—In reply to the question of Int hon, and gallaut friend, I have to inform the house that a telegram has been received, bat it did not come by the ordinary fortnightly mail, but by a vessel which left C9 ,l ' cutta a week later than the date of the last accounts. The telegram states that two convoys of provisions had reached Lucknow; that there had been a good deal of fighting; and that Sir James Ontram had been wounded. I cannot help suspecting that this is an echo of the news we re ceived before, and that it relates to the convoy of provi sions that reached Lucknow from Aluwbagh, which is three miles from that place. We had heard also thaS t during the engagements which took place when Lucknow was relieved, Sir J. Outram had been wounded ; and I am afraid, therefore, that this is a mere echo of the news re• oently received. MEDICAL CHARITIES (IRELAND). Mr. H. HERBERT obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend the laws in force for the relief of the destitute poor in Ireland, and to amend an act of the 15th year of her laj e m s t a y n , a providinggem entof mfoerdictahlecbhearttietiresdiinstprbelnatnd. ion, support, and The bill was brought in and read a first time. • PRINTING COMMITTEE. On the motion of Mr. WILSON, the following members were appointed a select committee, to assist Mr. Speaker in all matters which relate to the printing executed by order of the house, and for the purpose of selecting and at , ranging for printing returns and papers presented in tur• /mance of ronfinns. made by manila : 3ra of lino how.* t —The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir J, Pakington, Sir F. Baring, Mr. Walpole, M r . H en l ey, Mr. Cardwell, Mr. G. A. Hamilton, Mr. Wilson, Mr. S. Estcourt, Mr. Bonham-Carter, Mr. Greene, Mr. Divett, Mr. Gaskell, and Mr. Thornely. The house adjourned at 20 minutes to 9 o'olook. Country Markets. IRD—Dee. 4. th a spurt, best wheats reale but towards the finish all declined is to 2s. H. Oats, per qr 24 30 Peas, Partridge 41 44 Whi te 38 46 Boiling 4O 47 D un 40 4 2 Beans, Tiak 40 4 3 Harrow ticks 41 45 Mazagan 37 41 Ditto, new 37 tu CHELIISFO. Our market commenced wil ing is over last week's prices, sorts became dull, and wheat Wheat, white, old, per a. a. qr. 53 N new 44 N red, old 41 49 new 44 49 Barley 33 40 Chevalier 35 42 1 Grinding 3O 33 Malt 73 77 1 Chevalier 75 79 --- Official Statement of the Quantities of Corn, Ste., reOeilYed in the port of L on d on , f rom the following ports, host Nov. 29 to Dec. 5, both inclusive. 8 pi 4 4 Colchester Harwich 95 410 -- Leigh laldon ,1126, 718, 160 235p2 1— COLCHESTER— DEO. 5. The wheat trade to-day was slow, and a fair supply. Fins malting barley realised last week's prices—inferior, rather lawer. Beans and peas the turn cheaper. Prices to-daywere as follow :—Wheat, white, 52s to 58►; red, 46s to 625; barley, 38s to 44s ; oats, 26s to 280 ; beaus• Mazagan, 36s to 40s ; middle and small, 42s to 48s; pow white, 40s to 468 ; grey, 40s to 445. COAL MARK Prices of Coals per ton al e. d. :T.—DEC. 7. the does of the market • Walbonds Howard's . West Hartley Netherton 16 6 Bebside's Hartley 16 3 North Percy Hartley _l5 0 Hastings Hartley 16 3 W a lker Primrose .14 6 T an field Moor l3 3 Tanfield Moor Butes 13 3 West Hartley Grey's 15 6 West Hartley l6 6 ' s d. • NixOn's Dufrryn. 21 6 Framwellgato ' l7 6 Whitworth • lf 9 South Kelloe 18 0 draddyll lB 3 Eden Main l7 9 (hawed' 19 0 Hetton l9 I Russell's [Eaton 18 0 Wharneliffe 16 9 Eletton Lyons Main l6 6 Keiper Grainge lB f' Squbor wen Merthyr 20 0 Lambton lB 0 loath Hetton 18 9 roes ,,19 0 112 ; sold, 109. Wallsend, Ste. Gosforth . 16 6 Northumberland l6 0 Acorn Close l7 9 Horton l6 9 Jesmond l6 0 Lyon's Stone Coal 2O 0 Ships at market, BIRTHS. ELCUM--On the 7th inst., at Tuff . noll-park west, Holloway, the wife of Hugh W. Elcum, solicitor, of a eon. Goon —On the 6th inst., at Hyde-park-gate south, Kensing ton-gore, the wife of William Good, Esq., of a daughter. Neisii—On the 6th inst., at Dawson-place, Westbourne• grove, the wife of William Neish, Esq., of a eon. WOODHOUSE —On the 6th iust., at 33, Park-street, Grosvenor• square, tho wife of Wm. Hervey Woodhouse, Esq., of Ira. , hana.park, Lincolnshiro, of a daughter. MARRIAGES. Bunn—CAMPBELL —On the sth lust., at Chigwell ChurA; by the Rev. W. S. H. Mead ow s, Ni cholas William Butler, Esq., of Twickenham, to Janet, second daughter of A. Campbell, Esq., of the Grange, Chigwell, Essex. HUNT—EDEN—On the sth inst., at Trinity Caurch, Mauls* bone, George Ward Hunt, Esq., of Wadenhoe House. Nor thamptonhire, to Alice Eden, third daughter of the Right Rev. the Bishop of Moray and Ross. DEATHS Asnsuaignmt —On the Ist inst., at Ashburnhatn-place, Anne, youngest daughter of the Earl and Countess of Ashburn. Lain. CIISTWYND—On the sth inst., at Exmouth, Devon, the Vie. countess Chetwynd. S. H. Hingston, 3(1 P ENT —On the sth inst. , at Nottingham, Mr. Pearson Peet, Ii(WNOeSsTtONI—n India i th e g e t 3. a i g n e s d t. , 35 C . Captain C. age d 38 ; and on the following day Mr. Joh n P ee t , f a th e r of the above, aged 70, TYLMR Ou the 6ch inst., at 12, Norfol k-creseent, Hyde•park, Charles Pas!ey, the third sou of Captain Tyler, Royal Engi neers. witsox —On the sth inst., Al exan d er Wi lson, E sq., o f 8 , Old Jewry, and 5, Portland-place, Islington, aged 80. LONDON Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of No, 112, Strand, Printer at The Sun Office, No• 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of Middlesex, Taeaday, December 8, 1551 . •