The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-04-23 00:00:00

'S43 **trial Parliament, VOUSE OF LORDS. THURSDAY, APRIL 18. The Earl of Rosebery presented petitions from different parts of Scotland, praying for the abolition of church patronage. • Petitions praying ; for the better observance of the Sabbath were presented by Earl Howe, from a parish in Leicestershire; and by the Bishop of Llandatl; from the congregation meeting at Percy Chapel, St. Pancras. The Earl of Wicklow presented several petitions against slavery, and the plan of church reform, from places in Ireland. The Earl of Radnor presented petitions for the abolition of slavery, from a parish in Devonshire, and from the towns of Faringdon and Wokingham; from the Protestants of the in chapel at Wantage ; from the Wesleyan Methodists at Wantage ; from the Wesleyan Methodists at Maidenhead; from the Wesleyan Methodists at Letcomb-Basset, Fawley, and Childrey ; and the Protestant Dissenters at Kingston Lisle. Lord Suffield presented 48 petitions to the same effect from different parts of England. Similar petitions were presented by Lord Dacre, from Roys ton, iu Hertfordshire, and from a parish in Monmouthshire ; and by the Earl of Albemarle, from Diss, in Norfolk. Lord Grantham presented a petition from the magistrates of Bedford against the beer bill. Lord Dacre presented a petition from Wethersfield, in Essex, against the payment of church rates and other ecclesiastical dues. The Earl of Radnor gave notice that he would, on Monday nest, move the second reading of the Stafford Bribery Bill. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE stated that he had a petition in his possession, from certain parties, praying to be heard by _ counsel against the bill. Ou the motion of Lord WYNFORD, an account of the expense of the real property and common law commissions was ordered to be laid on the table. On the motion of Earl HOWE, the Seamen's Hospital Bill was. read a second time. Lord LYNDHURST requested the noble and learned lord on the woolsack to postpone the second reading of the Local Ju risdiction Bill, which was fixed for that night. He made this request on the ground that the evidence taken before the coin mon law commissioners, on which the bill was founded, was not yet. in the hands of their lordships. The LORD CHANCELLOR had no objection to postpone the second reading for the reasons stated by the noble and learned lord. He did not expect that the evidence to which the noble and learned lord had alluded, would be ready for delivery be fore Monday next. At the request of Lord ELLEN BOROUGH, the third reading of the Irish Juries Bill was postponed, in consequence of the ab sence, occasioned by illness, of a noble duke, (Wellington,) who was desirous of making some observations on the subject. The Mutiny Bill was committed. The Marine Mutiny Bill was read a third time, and passed. I;RIVY COUNCIL BILL. The Privy Council Bill went through a committee, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.—Adjourned. FRIDAY. Oh the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND, the Mutiny Bill Int.s read a third time and passed. Lord, ROLLE, in presenting a petition from Exeter for the better observance of the Sabbath, took the occasion of asking the noble viscount the Secretary of State for the Home-Depart ment, whether any alteration was likely to be effected in the management of the new beer-houses. Lord MEI:BOURNE admitted that the subject was one of ex treme importance, and that some alteration in - the system was absolutely . necessary ; but he feared that without some prelimi nary inquiry it would be impossible to effect any beneficial change. The beer-houses had been established for a length of time, and interests had grown up under the law which did not previously exist. He hoped, however, that some alteration would be devised which would obviate the prejudicial and un fortunate effects so genera complained of. On the motion of Lord MELBOURNE, the order of the day for the third reading of the Juries (Ireland) Bill, which stood for Monday next, was postponed till Thursday next. ADMINISTRATION OF THE CRIMINAL LAWS. Lord LYNDHURST rose to put a question to the noble vis count on, a subject connected with the administration of the criminal laws. By the act of Parliament passed in the course of last session, all convicted of cattle or sheep stealing, or stealing in a dwellins , : house to the amount of 51. should be sentenced to transportation for life. Now, he was extremely desirous of knowing whether the sentences under that act had been in all cases carried into effect, or commuted for minor punishments. One reason for his wishing to ascertain this was the fact of his having been lately engaged in the trial of several cases of the kind he referred to, and it had constantly appeared to him that the'sentence of transportation for life was in many of those cases extremely harsh, and much beyond the nature of the offence. He recollected one in which a poor cottager in a mountainous district of the country was indicted for stealing a lamb. He was the owner - of two or three sheep, and one of the mothers happened to drop a lamb, which died. '1 he cottager finding a few days after a lamb, which had strayed from his neighbour's flock into a field belonging to him, seized upon it and appropriated it as his own, tieating it in every respect as the one he had lost. The man was tried and found guilty of the offence, and he (Lord Lyndhurst), who sat as judge. was obliged in pursuance of the act to pass the extreme sea- fence 'upon - him. Under the circumstances of that case, he certainly thought the sentence much more severe than strict jus tice required; but he had no power to, mitigate the sentence. He tad felt it his duty to communicate the circumstances of . the 'case he had stated to the government when they . occurred. Surely the atrocity of the offence was very different in the case of a'person who thus carried away one sheep, and in that of another who stole a whole flock. Another reason which induced him to apply for information on the subject was this—that he had:ground to believe some further alteration was intended to •be introduced into the criminal laws by the other house of Par liament. He wished, then, while those alterations were in pro gress, that his Majesty's ministers would turn their attention to this point, namely, the affixing ()lone precise penalty to every case•of crime, and. that penalty to be enforced imperatively. Vo effect this object it would be necessary to make some extensive alterations in the definition of crimes. He was, for these rea sons; desirous of knowing from the noble viscount whether un der the new law the sentences for the offences he had mentioned had in eversoiristance been carried into effect. Lord MELBOURNE, in answer tp the noble and learned lord's question, could not give a precise answer; but he under stood that the sentences had not in every case been carried into effect. The circumstances of the several cases were, he believed, always taken into consideration, and the punishment which was considered most apportioned to the offence was substituted in its stead. With respect to the particular case PI sheep-stealing alluded to by the noble and learned lord, he was .not prepared to say what punishment was inflicted. He neither recollected the case nor the communication which the noble and learned lord said he had made. to the government, but in all probability a mitigation of the punishment had taken place. He (Lord Melbourne) had supported the bill for the mitigation of criminal punishments upon the general - principle of rendering them more certain, though less severe. The government would always be happy to avail itself of any communication from the noble and learned lord which would assist the attainment of those objects in the smallest degree. The present was, he conceived, the proper period for doing so, whets a bill on the.subjeet was about to be contemplated by the other house of parliament. Lord WYNEURD said that the principle alluded to by the no ble viscount who just sat down—the rendering punishments more certain, by diminishing their severity—was precisely the principle on which he had made the proposition to the house. He admitted that a better classification of crimes might be ef fected- Lord LYNDHURST assured the noble viscount (Lord Mel bourne) that whenever he should happen to sit as judge before a jur y who had never acted under the new law, he should con siderhimself bound in passing sentence to state to them the law of the case; and to point out to their notice the fact that-he was not allowed to mitigate the sentence. In order to obtain the in formation he wanted he should move " for a return of the num ber of convictions for horse, cattle, and sheep stealing, and for stealing to the amount of £5 in a dwelling-house, stating in how many of such convictions the punishment of transportations for life had been inflicted, and in how many that sentence had been commuted for different punishments, from the Ist of June, 1832, to the present time." Lord DACRE said that his object in originating the measure was to substitute certainty for uncertainty in the. punishment of crime, and he believed that he acted in consonance with the feelings of the majority of the people in so doing. The motion was then agreed to. The Privy Council Biil was reported, with amendments. Adj ensued.. HOUSE or corrtivioNs. • WEDNESDAY, APRIL 17 1 (Adiourned siftin(r.) Soon after five Aock the Speaker resumed the Chair. Mr. 'rooKE presented a petition from .Truro, for the re moval Of disabilities affecting individuals of the JeWish , per suasion. THE LIVEItPO Mr. A. BARING presented a similar petition, signed by 17,000 merchants, bankers, and traders of London and its vicinity.— The petition exhibited the names of the principal members of the East India-house, the Bank, and other influential bodies. They were informed that in France and other foreign coun tries the Jews were often employed in agricultural and rural pursuits, but in England such a thing was unknown. 'the Jews neither held nor occupied lands ; they lived in the busy haunts of trade and commerce, and therefore it was right that the house should know the opinion which those amongst whom they resided entertained of them. Mr. HUME presented a similar petition, signed by 500 Jews in London and its vicinity,—a fact that showed that they were not, as had been asserted, insensible to the disabilities under which they laboured. On the motion of Sir T. Fremantle, copies of all reports made to that house relative to the price of corn in foreign coun tries were ordered. Mr. O'CoNNELL wished to know whether the right hon. secretary for Ireland had seen an account of a trial which took place a few days ago in that country, when the counsel for cer tain defendants, who were charged with a violent assault, dis covered, after they had been convicted, that the indictment was drawn on paper instead of parchment. On that ground he moved for an arrest of judgment, and his application was allowed to be good. The assistant barrister, however, called the grand jury together—another bill was found, and the ease proceeded to a second trial. The defendant's solicitor chal lenged the jury for cause ; and he had a right to do so, as they had already decided on the case. The trial, however, proceeded, the defendants were found guilty, and sentenced to transporta tion. The whole proceeding appeared to him to be illegal, and he wished to know whether any steps had been taken re specting it. Sir J. 11011H6USE said he had that morning only seen a short report of the case in one of the papers. The matter was not, he believed, vet decided, an application having been made for the opinion of the Court of King's Bench on the question. Mr. O'CoNNELL, allitding to the evidence given before the committee of the House of Commons relative to the Dubiin corporation, observed, that if the right hon. secretary had read that evidence, he must see the ,necessity of legislating for that corporation without delay. The courts iu which criminal cases were tried in Dublin were under the influence of the corpora tion; that exclusive corporation, from which all Catholics were shut out, appointed the sheriffs, and by them the juries were selected. Such a system had the effect of polluting justice at the fountain head. On the motion of Mr. Hume, an account was ordered of the Admiralty from the commencement of the present reign, the name of the receiver, the amount paid over, and the expense of the establishment. _ EMANCIPATION OF THE JEWS. Mr. R. GRANT said, that before he proceeded with his in tended motion on the subject of Jewish disabilities, he was prepared to state to the house, in contradiction to what had already been asserted there,—namely, that the Jews did not feel those disabilities,—he was prepared to state that he had received letters signed by the most respectable of that class of his Majesty's subjects, declaring the interest they felt in the question, and regretting that it had not been yet settled. The case of the Jews was so strong, that he thought he might, with out offering a single remark, submit their grievances to. the House of Commons, with a full confidence of success. The whole body of persons of that persuasion, except a few who were too insignificant to merit attention, took the deepest in terest in what he was about to propose. On.a former occasion, in 'the old House of Commons, he moved for leave to bring in a bill for the removal of those disabilities which affected Jewish subjects; but, in conformity with precedents, and in accordance with the opinions of the friends of the measure, it was now thought better to move the house for a committee of the whole house to consider those disabilities. In that com mittee he would then move a resolution on the subject. His object was to place the Jews on the same footing with taut class of separatists from the established church—the Homan Catholics—whose civil rights were now recognized by act of Parliament. On a former occasion, when the subject was less considered by the public than it had been. since, lie had felt it necessary to observe and make remarks upon the whole case. He did not now deem it necessary to take that course. He would state first the principle on which he rested his case, and he should then very shortly apply himself to one or two of the main arguments that were urged against it. The chief principle on whin he called on the house to remove those disabilities— The SPEAKER suggested whether it would not be for the con venience of the house to know distinctly what course the hou. gentleman meant to adopt. If he intended to move a resolution in a committee of the whole house, it was to be considered, whe ther he would move for a committee of the whole house at once, and then open his case in that committee, or whether he would open his case now, and end with his motion for a com mittee. The difference of the two modes was this—that if he took the latter course, the debate would, iu the first instance, be taken in the house, and afterwards in the committee; but it' the house went into committee in the first instance, the case might then be opened, and a single debate would suffice on the reso lution. Air. R. GRANT thought the latter course was decidedly the best for him to adopt. Ile should therefore move "That this house do resolve itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider the disabilities affectincr Jewish subjects." In the committee he should state - his resolution. Sir R. INGLis thought it would be better to open the case in the whole house, and not in committee. After a short conversation between Mr. R. Grant, the Speaker, and Sir R. Inglis, the house resolved itself into a committee of the whole house, Mr. Warburton in the chair. Mr. R. GuANT proposed the following resolution :—"That it is expedient to remove all civil disabilities at present existing respecting his Majestv'S subjects of the Jewish persuasion, in like manner, and will; the same exceptions, as the disabilities affecting his Majesty's subjects professing the Roman Catholic religion had been "unloved." The right hon. gentleman sat down amidst loud cheers, _ _ Sir ROISERT INGLis opposed the motion in a speech of consi derable length, and concluded by saying that, in the then state of the house, and in the absence of many who had not ex pected that this question would come on to-night, and also in the absence of His Majesty's ministers, he would not press a division. _ _ Air. O'CONNELL said that he had struggled for religious liberty, not from any view of sectarian advantage, but from the advocacy of the broad principle of leaving every man's conscience free in• matters of religion . You might punish as effectually by political restriction,a: by torture for religious dif ferences, though not so severely: objecting to any restriction on the ground of religious opinions, and knowing that such re strictions kept out the conscientious man while they were no restraint on those who had no conscience, he rejoiced that the day:of common sense had arrived when all such absurd re strictions were to be abolished, .and when the nation which had borne with s'tch constancy the restrictions to which they had been subjected on religious grounds, were to be released from all further disabilities for their adherence to a religion which they believed to be true. lie was glad that, the nation was to be relieved from the stain of keeping up those odious re strictions. The motion was then put and agreed to, without a division. The house then resumed; and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow. PROCLAMATIONS IN IRELAND. • Air. O'CONNELL rose to call the attention of the house to. the proceedings which had already taken place .unuer the act recently passed, authorizing the Lord-Lieutenant in council to suspend the constitution in any county in Ireland, which he Might please to declare in a state of insubordination. Copies of all proclamations and orders issued by the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland under the statute of 3rd William IV. c. 4; return of the number of persons committed to the gaol of the county of Kilkenny, for the last twelve months, specifying the crimes or offences for which each person was committed,—the time and place where committed, —how many were indicted and tried, and the result of each trial; copy of every despatch or letter from the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, or his Secretary,— stating the reasons for proclaiming the county of the city of Kilkenny to be in a state of insubordination or disturbance, purSuant to the act of the 3d William IV., cap. 4.. He did not anticipate that any objection would be made to the production of any of these returns, except the last, and in that case the cause of the objection must be that - the reason of proclaiming the city of Kilkenny would appear in the despatch to be just as he bad stated. Sir J. HoutiousE did not know that there existed any objec tion to give the hon. and learned member a copy of the pro clamation of the Lord Lieutenant, and the return of the number of committals in the county of the city of Kilkenny; but the hon. and learned member must be aware that that return would not give him much information with respect to the state of crime in that city, because for ten crimes that iwere committed there was scarcely one committed to prison. Ile last return which the hon. and learned member had moved for it was not in his power to grant; and he hoped he would not press the matter to a division. He could assure the! hon. and learned gentleman that the reasons which induced the Irish government to include the city of Kilkenny in the proclamation, were such as he had just stated to the house, and iu no communication proceeding from the Irish government would be anything which could lead to the supposition that the city was proclaimed in order that the military officers might be accommodated with good quarters. If the hon. and learned member wished to put L STANDARD. down Whitefoot outrages, he could do nothing which would more defeat his own purpose than obtain au exemption for the city of Kilkenny from the effects of the proclamation. Air. SULLIVAN contended that no offences trod beak com mitted within the city of Kilkenny that at all justified the se vere infliction of the Lord-Lieutenant's proclamation. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL saw no ground for supposing that the Lord-Lieutenant had not, in this instance, i exercised ho nestly and wisely the powers with which he was intrusted. Mr. Huns said that the hon. and learned gentleman had made out no case, and the right hon. Secretary for Ireland had shown no excuse, for placing the city of Kilkenny in the pre dicament of a disturbed district. The only assigned reason for it was, that meetings had taken place there - if so, why not put the meetings down, as had been done in Dublin ? The ATTORNEY - GENERAL said that the legislature had placed a certain discretionary power in the hands of the government, and the only question was, whether the hon. and learned gen tleman had made out a case from which Parliament could infer that there had been a violation of the act. The hon. and learned member, in his opinion, had not made out such a case, and therefore he had no right to call for the papers. Mr. S. RICE observed that the exercise of the powers granted by the act to the county of Kilkenny was not questioned; the question was, whether the circumstance of the city of Kilkenny being a county of itself made a distinction. To exempt the city whilst the county was under proclamation would lead to great inconveniences. The right hon. gentleman instanced the case of Limerick under the Insurrection Act. If a sanctuary were established in the centre of the county, where the Whitefeet and perpetrators of outrages could obtain an asylum, the con sequences would beserious. Mr. D. W. HARVEY said, if the house was ready to sanction the principle of the argument of the right hon. gentleman, it would embrace the entire kingdom of Ireland.—(Hear.) He had not ventured to state that the condition of the city of Kil kenny justified the application of the act. The speech of the right hon. gentleman was an experiment to make the act co extensive with Ireland itself. The measure was conceded on the responsibility of ministers; that responsibility was now challenged, yet they refused to produce their reasons. Lord SANDON said that though no man felt more regret than he did at this measure (hear, from Mr. O'Connell,)—did the hon. and learned member by that cheer mean to say he did not regret it ? But though he did regret its necessity, he should regret if it was not carried into effect. (Hear.) The onus, he contended, was not on the government, but on the other side. He should give his support to ministers in their refusal of the papers. Mr. O'Cosssut, in reply, observed that he had been told, when he complained of the.possible abuse of this act, that he had only to conic to a reformed Parliament, and he would find go vernment ready to give its reasons ; of course it would, if it had any. But the only attempt at a reason was, that the powers of the act must be applied to the city of Kilkenny, because the place might be an asylum. But the word "asylum," was not in the act; the act only spoke of places in an insubordinate and disturbed state; Kilkenny was not in such a state, and the pro clamation was a lie. (Hear.) This had been admitted by the Secretary for Ireland, and by the Attorney and Solicitor-Gene ral; for they admitted that there had been no outrage, no crime; yet the Lord-Lieutenaut had issued such a proclamation. What, then, became of the argument that the people of Ireland had only to come to that house for protection ? All he required was the reasons of the government; yet this reformed House of Commons would refuse the reasons which had induced the go vernment to apply the act to the city of Kilkenny. The house then divided, when there appeared, — For the motion Against it ll5 Majority. CUSTOMS CONSOLIDATION BILLS Mr. S. RICE said ifliii in the absence of his right hon. friend (Mr. P. Thomson), and at that late hour of the night, he would not detain the house by any observations on the bills the second reading of which he was about to propose. In those bills there were no new provisions; they were only intended to effect a con solidation of the existing laws. He proposed that the bills should now be read a second time, and that a month should be allow ed to elapse before they went into committee. The bills would, thus be laid before the house for a considerable time,_ and indi viduals would have an opportunity of looking into the existing law, and of examining what was proposed to lie done with re ference to it. No party could therefore be taken by surprise. Under these circumstances he hoped the house would allow the bills to be read a. 'second time, and that they should be commit ted ou that day month. . On the motion " That the British Possessions' Bill be now read a second time," Mr. YOUNG rose, and said he wished to have some explana tion as to the alterations which were about to be proposed in the present system. He was anxious to learn from the hon. Secre tary of the Treasury the specific alterations which it was pro posed to introduce in the various bills. He saw some words and figures printed in italics, which appeared to him to be oromi nous import, and he was anxious to know what they meant. Mr. 1 - 1 UNT wished fora postponement of these measures. He was wholly taken by surprise on this occasion. Mr. Hums observed, that but a few hours had elapsed since he had received some papers connected with these bills. He conceived that, on the second reading of hills of such great con sequence, a greater portion of information should be afforded. Mr. S. Rice said, that in moving the second reading of these bills, he did not call on the house to affirm any new proposition whatsoever. and, by fixing the committee for the 17th of May, an opportunity was given to every person interested to weigh and consider what was the nature of the proposed alterations. The object of reading- the bills a second tune now, and com mitting. them for this - day month, was to give individuals an opportunity of examining what the law at present was, and what the alteratien would be. Individuals under the old sys tem, sometimes acted wrongly, because they knew not what the law was; but the course of proceeding now proposed would enable them to know what the existing law was, and what the alteration would be. _ _ The following bills were then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on the 17th of May:—British Possessions' Bill, Registry of Vessels Bill, Customs Duties' Bill, Customs' Man agement Bill, Customs Bounties' Bill, Customs ' Regulation Bill, Isle- of Man Trade Bill, Warehbusing Bill, Smuggling, Bill, and Navigation Bill. Mr. LENNARD moved the second reading of the dame Bill. Mr. F. PALMER objected to legislating again on the subject till the bill of 1831 had had a fair trial. After a few words from the Siilicifor-General and Col. Wood, Mr. H. Ross moved that the bill be read a second time that day. six months. Mr. LAMB opposed the bill. The house divided:— For the amendment For the second readibg . . Majority against the bill , . 11 Adjourned'at hall-past one o'clock. THURSDAY,—TWELVE O'CLOCK. The house was occupied in receiving petitions until three o'clock when the Speaker vacated the chair. ADJOURNED SITTING-FIVE O'CLOCK. Mr. O'CONN.EI.I. gave notice,, that he would on Monday, on the house going into a committee of supply, again bring under the notice of the house the state of the county of Kilkenny, in reference to its being proclaimed by. Lord Anglesey. BEI;It HOUSES. The Marquess of CHANPOS, pursuant to notice, moved for a select committee to inquire into and report upon the state and management of beer-houses. ilis..object was to improve the character of those houses, by submitting them to the same po lice regulations as public-houses. At present they tended to increase . erime and pauperism, besides not furnishing the poorer classes with good beverage. Colonel WiILIAAts approvednf the noble lord's motion, as he conceived the beer-shop system to be fraught with unquali fied abuses. . . Lord AurhouP had no objection to the proposed inquiry with a view to police regulation; indeed; he thought it highly desirable that the beer-houses should be subject to the same control as publie-houses. Colonel 'Whop said that they were so, so far as the excise and the magistrates were concerned. If hon; members were anxious to afford the working classes a better and cheaper beverage than that.now afforded by the beer-shops, they might easily effect their object by repealing. the duty on malt. (Hear.) Mr. WatieuirroN hoped that if the beer-shops were placed on the same footing with respect to magisterial control as pub lic-houses, that they would have also the same privilegeswith respect to the hours of opening and shutting. Mr. HUsia said that. it would be proved. before the committee that the beer-shops had been productive of great advantage to the working classes, who, through their means, were furnished with a better and cheaper beer. Mr. BARING admitted that such was.the fact in the county of Middlesex, but.in it only . . Throughout the country at large there was no second opinion as to the bad effects of the beer shop system. he. motion was agreed to, and a committee appointed, TITHES. Lord Aurtioßp, pursuant to notice, rose to -submit to the house a measure for the commutation of tithes in England.— He need not say that the subject matter of his motion was one of great importance ; at the same time, he felt that it would not be necessary for him to detain the hoots at k.• adducing argutherits in favour of the g eneral commutation. (Hear.) His principal duty', explaining the principles of his measure , stated, was undoubtedly of great importance.. portant when considered as a measure wh ich change that would be substantially just and at the same time adding to the burdens of the he, however, entered into the main question took to bring under their consideration, he that he should at the outset disabuse hon'; , public with respect to the very exaggerate' amount of the revenues of the church, which on several occasions, and very recently in t , hon. member. It had, for instance, been s member, that the revenues of the clergy of E 1 were £9,000,000 per annum. Now, a more • tion never was uttered. (Hear.) The total in bishops of England and Wales, including Sodor and Man, was but £158,527, and the deans and chapters were £236,358 per annul exact returns of the income of all the pal had sufficient data for asserting that it was v , £3,000,000 sterling per annum, making, with bishops and the deans and chapters, an en 3 little more than £3,500,000, instead of £9,s (Hear.) It would, perhaps, be better for him to show that he had not understated the reven ehial clergy, the data on which he had found( There were 11,400 livings in England; of turns from 9,660. These returns gave a to per annum. Now, there was no reason what( that the_ remaining livings were of a higher. 9,660; so that, taking the same average tis total of £3,226,000 per annum for 11,406 - This,equally divided, would give an average o, with the revenues of the prebendaries, deanel alSo equally divided among the parochial ci an average of £3OO per annum and no films It was hardly necessary for him to contend tl sidered, £3OO per annum was not too high an sident working clergyman of the church of 7 it was also unnecessary for him to point out between the condition amid-,circumstances of - land as would render a higher nominal income latter. (Hear.) A great object of his meat ing of the residence of a clergyman in ever' cries of," Hear.") That, certainly, was a n ject. (Hear.) Whether considered in a rail or in a . political point of view, he was sure thi one opinion of the desirableness of having a cl in every parish. (Hear.) And he was equal would all agree that £3OO per annum was not come for the resident minister. The question that income was to be obtained; that is, from 11 the revenue of the clergyman be derived? It bounden duty of the legislature to prevent 1 being, not only a source of discontent and disc persons paying, but also disadvantageous so far of the clergyman himself was concerned. it desirable that the revenue should not be the angry recriminations and collisions between t flock as might tend to impair his influence, an' ness. (Hear, hear.) Now, tithes in kind, ti of church income, had been long felt to be prejudicial collisions; and, accordingly, for gislature had acted on the principle of coins ever a favourable opportunity presented i. hounden duty of the legislature to exert itself all obstructions in the way of the beneficial ei gyman; that his income should not be derive which almost inevitably endangered angry spirit of discontent and opposition so unfav• finence as a minister of the gospel. (Loud el The object of the measure was to produce a adjustment of this question of tithes. It • that it was most desirable that a measure of t purely permissive; that the respective partie and the tithe receivers—should come volunt fairly agree as to the arrangement that was de. He would not say that he altogether expected missive measure would have the effect of pis commutation of tithes throughout the count not be expected that a purely permissive men lutely effect all the objects which they had in in the first instance, to give power to the owner, and the tithe-payer. When he spoke he begged to say that he did not think it fair t tion should be confined to the tithe-propel (hear)—he thought that the provisions of it ! inetatis mutandis, to the lay impropriators that the measure which he was now about to in the first instance, give power to the tith( owners, whether clergymen or lay impropris• arrangement for a commutation of tithes into si rent, varying, of course, according to the price o f converting tithes into a perpetual. rent, it was (1 , 1 sary to make its amount be measured by the variations in the prices of corn. In making this 3 i thought it right not to allow the clergyman of s e ' mute the tithes of it without the consent of th l i living and-of the bishop of the diocess ; and, on not to allow the tenant of a farm to commute its the consent of the landlord. He proposed, in tli, t l to give twelve mouths after the passing of this til'd —the tithe-payer and the tithe-owner—by a 133 agreement entered into between them, to coal ] into a perpetual corn rent. But if, after that pe 3 ,.. 1 , a commutation should not take place, which P must suppose would be the case in the M s parishes, though he trusted that it would n ot proposed that the tithe-payer or tithe-receiver , ing it necessary that the whole of the parish the subject, but allowing any individual titile: o notice to the tithe-receiver that he intended tithes,—he then proposed that the tithe-paye r a valuator, and that the tithe-receiver shot- 111 ' 4 appoint, a valuator on the other side, and tk, proceed at once to a valuation of the tithes 1.9 the purpose of effecting a commutation of th e one other measure which was absolutely o e, pressed more or less in point of time for imm. Lion, and which he hoped in a very short tO some other member of his Majesty's gwernol e d the honour of proposing, either in that house House of Parliament,—he alluded to a measure for the future pluralities in the church of Engl. • With regarli to other measures, there were di way of - their adoption, but nevertheless he lie that at early period other propositions would he to meet other evils. He would not pledge b i 'i present than to say, that some measures would ward by government for that purpose. As lan e commencement of his address to the house, that this measure, though it did not appear to i t „ magnitude, yet if it should effect that which 10 , and general advantage to the public,—namely, p' of tithes, at an early period throughout the Co p ceived that it would he entitled to be looked up°,. of considerable magnitude indeed, though at might not attach such importance to it. This 0) " nant with this great advantage to the landed interests of the county, that it would give th, employing their capital upon their land, witho o by the collection of tithes, which had always he ; the improvement of agricultural property it (Hear.) The noble lord concluded by i noci., bring in a bill to effect a commutation of tithes Mr. A. BARING said a few words, which were gallery. Lord ALTHORp, in answer, said that it was 4,, lieved, that wherever a composition for tithes included the poor-rates, and that it would be 0 111 that. the valuators should take them into the ) hereafter, whenever a commutation was about would be for the public benefit that the clergY ° an interest in the poor-rates, in order to ensure nistration. Sir E. INntrs said' that the noble lord was 13 admit that this permissive measure vos lik The noble lord first gave permission, but he 1" wards by compulsion. The noble lord, in fact, "- " Keeps the.word ofigromise to the But breaks it to the hope." On a more fitting occasion he should be prera l l a discussion of the details of this measure. t hear the noble lord declare that he would dea o l pert) , in the same way, whether in the hands II laymen. He trusted that such a principle w"','l ten when they were legislating on this subjec, Mr. HUME thought it would be better for tll, missioners were appointed by government throughout the country and buy them up, and t, be paid either out of the Exch'eq , uer or by of Hear," and "Oh ! oh !") Such a plan 1 0 1 under the serious consideration of persons i fi 3 i the noble lOrd; and if such a plan had been c 1 40. ears ago, it would have been better for the„ Sir R: PEht.. was' sure that there was uo tr t ii adverse to the principle of a conmmutation 0 .0 from being opposed to it, was readyto give 01 a pri LTHORP nciple the most careful consider explained, that what %AS 1 tneasure was,tha the tith-receive] of being paid according to the certain grain, according to •• ritut, after all uding to oth e r port i 9 "ho"ld gct into 0. faller discussion of it galleryN said a few worcls which 1 iu the y. 14ussuridl-ori said, that during the la ' of the litigation bptween tithe pa) ed to a sum that would be still -A in p thisrosperity. When they recoil be set tt s, not be it s w Ito possible to overcome hould them al • ile had objections to the mode Parts of the plan, but he would, reserv, u•ut into committee on the bill. 'VING was glad to perceive that so lit been mixed up with temper mi lordvi-ould brill.. .• to observe with what then ob: It. and how d ; great a desire he had disph ,a,4- mipartiality towards the interes 1 ' lie hailed the introduction of th :tiered that it Ivould tend to dissipate thq 4s with regard to the established chi 4:oad. 'Phese temporary delusions,—for 1111k)rarY,—the result of malevolence v4 nisii before the facts which the meal etiougi,. ei .1 ,„ 1 ",' 3131 was of opinion that as little el v - 71, 4'4 i 4 the present rate of tithe pay e",,s3t4ght that every man in the emir Lirew rran(reinent, pretty nearly the • 3 e as the nobie lord that wh to light. They had la he would give it his best attention. /411; thought some difficulty would a l ''''t in kind, owing to the trequ Jr the purpose of shearing, feeding, , ' e Pat In tome for the purpose of al ~ to ask the lord whether the r "Itroduced wnobleith the approbation of tl !t,rs e x pressed his a pp ro b at i on of the 1t() I said that the measure had bet of the church ; but he was not autl eith er ;ls , 4iPproved or disapproved of it. a ie that the bishops should express a int - e y e r the other upon a subject in wh rest, inasmuch as it affected narochi to th e o b jection which had been f,lir -Middlesex as to the mode in wl ~e ' 4e admitted that there was much !ri oo ce tt,iii be devised for the commutati th e s °ejections might not be made. He pro pose " 1 ,3' Principle which could be sub: is, r., e seei Was one of a general actual val conlksied that if that were made the bas ivol i l i tation of tithes, so far from lick by e x , create general discontent. The r l ' i sit less itig his gratification at the tat Ilbin_ habeen received by the house. , - t 'eti a"iven to bring in the bill. ~ i 1; it o SINECURES. Of „h expressed a wish that, in bringir -tZleh he had given notice, his objec With til On two former occasions he 14 0 Perfriflee v iew of putti ng an en d to offic 4 v - d, and consequently to save 1 %t il es was paid to the persons holdin take of salaries and allowances.. 01 s en to the manner in which he intro, 411i°4,e. persons thought that he had . h e beu.lect, whilst others were of opinioi ..ido„reaght the subject forward was no l'as o , ) g. the course which he had pursuel b it to t 41 ; 1, : • hl .c ih nd h u e ce w h a i s m a t b o o s u u t pp to os s e .u th m at he ha a -' ' t reader basis than either of the ti 4 ' ,,,, a 111) °,11 it would enable the . people to th e ji, uisPosed to forward their anxious i try e',l)e,ailiture He had received from niaet,lhanation; which had been made ittiOted against his former motions, bu for ~..": In 18(8, when the people were . 0 tx.ir the ministers appom 1,i,11 consisted chiefly of governme itito% "le confidence of government. I 1 ' f aborious investigation on the subj ec ? wpich they published in the scheciuk is ''reni these schedules it appeared th 'I -elite offices existing in 1809 were as 1 i n England and the colonies . . :--......._ Scotland b at ~,----Hreland ets' i l t r,d many sinecure offices had been : 11 - „1 1 /i had been passed for the refoi 1 . 4 aTe ‘a t il,d l'ilo c t i ile number of those remaining, Nuld h lied that informatio r .tikv ect ave supplied and Scotland, and he regre 4eVed bat r, had not yet been laid befo kel t . that the amount of the sinecures latitaggerated, but he wished the hou sibeolvas rather to the principle of those -epi, 1 - inoney drawn from t..e po . ,Ilitild 111e:emolument attached to h theni ck th e a ts Cul e - a 'e given to individuals who perform l lititZ t :l It was incumbent on the how. hit p,i'ats that they were determined in f 'orii,lleiPles. It was really painful to reflo . lot k ; 3 ; ll eY which had been squandered in , y l)e` e 'O t ig. too far to assert that one-half of L to . Created by the payment of sinecure. at heist clil d b 7 1333 e rs s o i n n s e:c lv u h r o e 4 4peocalettlate, in addition to the sum 1 0 p o ild interest upon them, that they were 4, 11 Bs t e n s sed influence in both Houses of P le e tizta:taio"nasiti.dnecbtito.n O m n ea t s i u te re u s wolfiicAhphril,ad 181 c a%to the house 'signed " Henry Goul reside there, the illeetilited to £53,000 annually. From I Nit selected seven, including tne Hon. C eight 6 „,„ r a\ broke, and Sir C. Greville, who, he o icln c ot sinonly Idetti"4„:the date of their appointment t!! .. 1 k e . ,Ty holdup to 1816, no less than 11,62°. e fen" ls . the 13th of June, 1809, the fi , n ,. artc fOllOl5 the report to the house :—" f. ha n t e ihy deeininittee that the existence of sine 'liil -e PtitY, is unnecessary and inexpedient id, Public services." Shortly after the hi it, oloved a resolution embodying the . ly, ' w hich was negatived, and from that to 1401Wheo he made his motion, the questic , tt l „,,, t a l. nder the consideration of the hous, itie-o"'!ier, after eulogizing the Marquess Car N, ,1.14 which he had resigned the profits t, I..(halaotinting to £23,117 per annum, ti a, '40 — proceeded to mention some of as follows li,, th ‘,l ... i el'es H.,444Per, held by two young ladies, the 1.1 1 ,• ° , all. Earl, (hear, hear.) th isr. I :(PNII in Chancery, Earl Bathurst i e '"ng's Bench, Lord Ellenborough,— If 1:nr"1-1ear.") .... k e e Seals in the Court of Common Pleas, npef Grafton kfadavits in Chancery, Hon. W. H eli4ito'ilol'.binattehreisst Iflocii.•• ....................... _ If ul aokrupts, Lord Thurlow e,, 4anaper, Lord Thurlow thane cotland, the Earl of Rosslvn. ' II • • • u °use wuetiier such a system ought . s i t N l h er Y . : ........ ... fur his children, the Earl 14 1 .° when government were dischargipi Q v ,le establishtnents ? (Hear, hear.) H the' the present holders of sinecures ought e e ,„111tIon, namely, first, " That, on all . tu t th e Aces, in the naval, military, civil, t al ', country no new appointment shall be motion untouched. would n not ie raise ho n. that m,. .tol,owance,'or emoluments granted." It . q ,7inl, however, he observed that it would lees at and military," and to say, gent a nd at home and abroad," which would coi 1, ` it,be resolution was so altered. The s! ion , :oat no person shall receive an appa e , to which emolument was attached, till ',..° be Performed b y deputy. The objectli,to eir prevent any office being held by indptv l o and y to trit el, dut in y 1822, res p in the in it sttuice of oth Reeet VOr asked the house to extend it to all of st res.olution being put, uc h a : Lord _ pri x ( any g re!ith e cal princ . On 4 1 . Uty, th e 0( kej w hiCa , y it i„_ ce. It 0. 1 . R.71 C1 " hick rt he 4 1, It Et ,d (HI M the ev• • io Vli ac j ha th l4l( bough t . 1 0 , gi -814 lip on• of t , ;ed sta te ,' "rs at o 4( b had b-IY chur ch nt lose that b e ,' that 1p in i teo' Ain _ gt It was eset E n glae vo ' iqsat e , '' re extq Part a o e t al n g the' a runt rota the to ; h ad b ee l , l ,' G a nUttl•,i 'Ceti to a roeki P ti o ' d it, a i se yen' 'ess a th .er ,ned i , l4 14 i4 ntire uelier 1 4C , 000,VIY tl Inn te,,, e , a broa ( l • i vith i . , ve nded.., ve nded..' a, Y teen ." ended bis these qf go ld v ans Il istt tot ,ll .beef r,(41 a t- otti laLe. . are "' he xi ; 4 "° 11 a 'they .f e htly, t i o e d Evil) , J e the taev. ai ug of 1: Il e aeries , 4rt he iv ass, cier , r° r thea. Bt eric t Nt., 4 kigh ° r th an b e tb e e Eng, b gßed t Put out t. !ea i r ° of Ire e° ? "` r cQu , p . :owe ' , ease be c , very a e ads n ' 7 l() lte L l ast „"tley e i" the relig'° po, t her there 'he ;1 131 e th; a c ier , da l i nt y or t i vallY 6 h esp ec r St, not tO ° -, elab to t stioa , , altieettr be tro ,a, ea s4r , a It 14 'etiee coul d it tb!: L that t r ebj e disaa e ow, ,0 ia r P. ea Co c c the it I:o,,lll)Autati the by ere; acid °I)os: "ua sPressJ 1, the ve w4B theh( p Ye roil 4 o, a nutipt of siC wh;ex elf to • u , 4B lvi k t },, °d • e ue 31 0 "a; h ' the v . rived toeu,,erforw y eau ' the it e Y as w . avou lv ere ta a i t i lee of I eri g •Ls. s,, ett to a fa :l4, C 'eti 1)( t wo i >ld, eh b e tobj et of the °D , .si c i p "'!ough ties- - ; reas,`"ng ti altar)] oti e4 to j u( desir 3 : t t e d , 40 ! „ - ' a 4, produ c 11 ," It Pt)a i t tntrY;, the : 8 dis r , ( aleastl'A k iatry'lveo ( li in vie go expi„ 3 ) e k r i e e t r h e g a l t • •Ei tt e f: 1 1: 1 : 14 4 v i t • : ge l; Tett) . it she' 1.1140: z the `( also. 'vt ab oi .i i , to i° ports . ith e-P8 Billeerom. P ri , a _ t° l tilre,glittl'ePil