The Sun. — London, England, 1847-02-16 00:00:00

urposa of exigency, but intro con iident I. It un 'action to Lordships employ ,pon their with th© luded by observe alich the re:Tea to w m. He ousts of the sister England. Did with d feeling digress 11 indul- Ttive, by Le hardly ; but in opinion ie session ought to r, hear.) y ought measure. Jordships month of ras better •er to this Ls for the d remain equally ► It was ,he more er to this upon the , n issued, st severe ity. He io part of e of any r for the to secure any pre- D remove impedi ence, the the laws, ,cure, but )f every his la- The Go- I upon it ) provide principle of every -er be de gent no ted upon )of which at they their s also a essential ition to key voted others. it was is knew ,eril. It ig e ven o their 4F, that present to make ood. It l e poor, , rnment ould be ale, but .ss than a re lid not indivi rn at less It on to rho are Cher the , 1 which .rice, or rpenee, rnment d would . askt.td give; ihy. he did not id, the hear, even upon. THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY l6 , 1847 eoLdition, on account of the previous two hard winters ; for e People, 'accustomed to mild and temperate- seaons, had not laid up provo:ons in sufficient quantity. Disease and fever then prevailed, and crime increased so much that they were 2bliged to send three judges on the assises to Munster and Leinster. One of the judges had died of he gaol fever, and the Attorney -General, w ho had voluilteered, for a benevolent purpose, to go on the siime circuit, had died aho. The same letter stated that the judges were off.nard daily with the most miserable spectacles of expiring wretches, and the most n oisome effluvia. The Noble Lord continued to say that mu c h fiad been referred to the power of law, but he doubted whether it could ever re-create any near approach to In Irish Parliament. The rosition in which the People of England (sere at prevent plat.-d was, that though straitenedthemselves, they were called upon fo r. t y advance of money which it was said would ho r epaid He would not question that the people of Ireland might. really wish to repay, but what he had doubt of was, whether they Would ever be able. But he hail another reason for spraking Is he had done ; he saw that nol withstanding all the clamoured necessity the Irish gentlemen still contrived to live in luxury with liveried servants and their French wines ; and one thing 120 would put to them was, how was it they did not pay so ninny fixes as the English people? They were a t least free from thos e w hi c h presse d h eav ily on this country. There was the income-tax, which was very heavy in its operations, though not quite so heavy as it once was ; there were the seas-taxes, and, he believed, the land-taxes, which they were Lot subject to. (Lord Landowne—They pay quit rents.) Well, at least they were free from the payment of the income and cess-taxes, amount ing;o four millio n s and a half, which this e. wary had to pay. land in Ireland did not maintain its own poor, as it did in England. N ever th e l ess h e a d m itted that something must be , d one to prevent the painful state of distress in the wes t of Ire land, for they had heard that 27,000 had come over to Liver- Pool in one month. It was quite a mistake to say that persons Who came over at the rate of nine hundred a day wore emi grants, intending to make their way to other parts of the world. Th e y were professional b eg gars, who came there to obtain food, and to stay until they were removed. He was told that persons in Ireland who occupied an inferior pchition in life tept servants and carriages, which a similar class in this country Would not dream of doing ; they were parties who were fit to pay a higher tax than they did. There were very few mort gages in France ; but in Ireland, reckoning the value of the rent of the land st 14,000,000/. a year, 5,000,000/. or 6 ' 00 0,000/. went to the mortgagee annually. This was a great exascerbation of the evil under which they laboured, for the mortgagee did not care for the famine or failure of the Potato crop.—( Hear, hear.) He was sorry to have felt it his duty to utter these unpalatable truths ; but he was not in the position of an individual who was bestowing his own charity— k.e was a l aw - g i ver and a law-maker; he was not giving away Own money, but the money of the public, one of whose trustees he was. The money was for the relief of the em ployer as well as the employed, and would in his opinion be 19jurious in the end to both. Lord LUCAN wished to ask the Noble and Learned Lind from whom he derived his information that as many as 4,000 ejectments had been made in a short time in one part of Ireland ? and forced upon Ireland measures of perin.inent relief and pro vision for th people—which would increase the evil—would be aoverse to the opinion, end condemned by the judgment of the educated and intellectual classes of Ireland, and on whom the burden of taxation was about to tall. Nothing could be more fatal than the passing by a British Parliament of a mea sure of poor-law relief condemned by the principal representa tives of the country. He trusted, although the question was not then before their Lordships, he might be permitted, in no spirit of hostility, but ro.ther with the view of making some suggestion, as he thought there were suggestions to be made on points which should be regarded with the gravest con sideration—he would suggest to their Lordships on three or four provisions much which ought to be borne in mind, and which it appeared to him was not borne in mind in providing a permanent poor-law for Ireland. They were about to frame a poor-law for that country. They were about for the first time to confer an absolute right of relief unless some alteration had been mad- in the first clause of the Bill as it was no v submitted to Parliament. By the Bill as it stood at pre sent, boards of guardians of the different unions of Ireland were not only authorised and empowered, but authorised and required to make some provision for all persons permanently disabled, infirm, and so forth, either within or without the workhouse, as it might seem to them fit. The present law gave to the board of guardians permission to relieve but in the workhouse only. The Bill they were about to introduce re. quired the guardians to relieve either within or without the workhouse. He thought he was not wrong in what he said with regard to the aged, to the permanently disabled, the aged and infirm. They ought to confer the right of relief on • them, but they ought not at present to go further. He believed on his part, that although many heavy burdens were borne by the resources of Ireland, the provision was not a judicious one. They were, however, going further, for it appeared that a pro- • vision was to be made for the able bodied, either within or in certain cases without the doors of the workhouse. They were authorising the Poor-law Commissioners to require the board of guardians in certain cases to provide for the able-bodied out of the workhouse. The provision might be a neces:ary one, but it was one from which he completely dissented. It might be one for which there was the greatest possible occasion, but it was a power which had a tendency more than any other to extend and increase indefinitely not only the pressure of the poor-rate itself, but also had a ten dency to create a desire in the minds of the Irish people to desert their labeur.—(Hear, hear. The point to which he wished to call their Lordships' attention was this, they were about to lay every burden upon the land of Ireland—they were about to require the land of Ireland to support the great body of destitute persons. It was not unworthy of their Lordships' consideration, and he trusted that it might not be lost sight of by the Government, whether this provision under which a limited amount of relief was now granted, and which might have been found wise and effective enough with regard to the present constitution of boards of guardians, might be found equally wise and safe when they came to grant a more ex tended and a greater measure ; and he was sure that they would find and impose on Ireland the full amount of burden which England was called upon to bear, and they were bound in fairness and candour to see that the property affected by the measure was justly applied, and to grant a protection to it at least equal to the protection granted in England. There were two other points. He was not about to discuss them then, but he trusted that he was not improperly occupying their Lordships' time by making some suggestions.—( Hear, hear.) The condition of things, with regard to the poor-taw in England and Ireland, was different, because society in Ire land was very much divided into very high and very low, and that fact formed a most important consideration. With refer ence to the formation of boards of guardians, the boards of guardians in England, the middling farmers were almost gene rally the persons called upon to officiate, but that was the very class which was most deficient in Ireland, and from which it would be impassible to form boards of guardians. The tenure of the power devolved in Ireland in a great measure on very much lower and poorer classes than it did in England on classes little above the labourers themselves. It might be well for their Lordships to consider that, if this were the case, there should be interposed between the guardians of that class of persons and property some security that it shosed not be wasted, and that there should not be less security in Ireland between the guardians and property than could be obtained in England from the present system, and yet the law as it now stood limited the amount of er officio guardians to the number ordinarily allowed in England. Those upon whom the pres sure of the Irish poor.law would fall in the first instance would be the landlord rather than the occupier. It might be said that the landlord was the proper person to bear it, and was the person upon whom the pressure ought to be made to fall ; and therefore it would be better, when they were about to make a provision for out-door relief, to provide able-bodied per sons from the funds of the parish, that those persons on whose pro perty the taxation would fall should have a preponderating voice in the framing of that taxation ; and if they should have the board constituted of small farmers, paying one-third of the amount of taxation, while two-thirds fell upon the landlords, i.e was afraid that in many cases there would be a great temp tation to an improper extension of the rate, and the mis z , management would be greater as the amount of parochial rates levied upon themselves became smaller. The great object they had in view was to raise this class of farmers to be themselves employers of labour. They ought to compel them to employ labour ; for to tell him that the landlord could supply labour to the extent required was to tell him that his property would be confiscated, and therefore employment should be provided by the farmer. If they relieved the farmer from this obligation they would induce them to throw their labourers out of work, and trust to the chance of obtaining labour at a cheaper rate out of those sup ported by the poor-sates. Ne measure could be more indis pensable than this, for where the rates fell directly on the far mer himself, the pressure was the most wholesome and only safe mode to prevent the improvident expenditure which a different system of poor-laws would introduce into Ireland. Whatever might he said against the Irish landlord, he (Lord Stanley) was satisfied that there was more justice and more good sense in England than to make a provision by which, he believed, that the farmer could impose duties and burdens which could not be borne by the landlords of England ; and to say that they should have no voice in the assessing of rates ; that they should have them assessed on those who were the persons to pay by small farmers, who were altogether exempt from payments—who had not the means of employing labour— who had not the inducement to employ labour, but who voted for the relief of persons from burdened estates, which would be in a great measure confiscated by him. He (Lord Stanley) was satisfied that in England, where this class of farmers were more respectable in point of property—he did not say of cha racter—that if they had the control, and only one-third of the payment fell upon them, much dissatisfaction would be caused. There were two other points, which, as he was en his legs, he would venture to suggest to the consideration of her Majesty's Government, and there was one which he considered as all important, if they meant really to put a check upon profligate expenditure, and that was the question as to whether the rates should be levied upon the townlands or the electoral districts. He knew that proposals had been made to throw the burden of taxation on the townlands. He considered that impracticable, because they were too small, some of them coming as low as forty or fifty acres, and an assessment on se small a scale was impossible. On the other hand, he was rather inclined to think that the electoral division, as they were at present con. stituted, did not err on the side of being too small; they were too large to give scope, or sufficient scope, to individual responsibility for the management of property—rather for the prevention than the payment of rates. He was sure that if they still further taxed the liability of proprietors, and from the electoral divisions threw the burden of taxation upon the unions of Ireland, instead of the electoral divisions, from that moment there was an end to all inducement to the lauded proprietors to take the smallest part or interest in the management of their own property. He felt in some degree interested on this ques tion. Their Lordships must make all due allowance for that matter in the weight they attached to his observations: but when he said that he was an Irish proprietor, he said that it was contingent upon the decision come to upon this matter whether he should or should not continue so. He had one mere point to which, if they would forgive him, he would urge upon the consideration of the House, and he thought it was one of sufficient importance to be introduced at this early period, although it would be discussed when they came to con sider the provisions of the more permanent measure. It was this —a declaration—a legislative declaration—which in Eng land would appear to be uncalled for, because he believed that the public sense of every board of guardians would have carried it into effect. Under the provision made it was stated that no man could be allowed to be destitute or entitled to relief when, at the time, he was the occupier, or in possession of land. He did not mean, when he said land. sufficient for a garden, about a quay ter or halt of an acre ; but when he made the following observation, he should have the concurrence of nine out of ten men acquainted with Ireland. It would be the ruin of the country if they at mice sanctioned the union in one person, the two characters of pauper and land occupier. There were a great massy small occupiers in Ireland, who were quite in as much distress as other classes, and the board of guardians would say that he should have relief, so that hail of the year he woul l be a land occupier and the either half a pauper, de teriorating in value the parish from wh.ch be derived his relief. Unless ail these corniderationa were taken into consideration, no measure could be introduced at all calculated to reduce the distress of the country, without leaving behind it evils cone than those it was intended to cure.—( Hear, hear.) The Earl of NIOUNTCASHEL complained that the effect of this measure would be to impose a burden on certain of the classes in Ireland which they were altogether unable to bear. The number of rate-payers who would be registered amounted to 195,017, but out of this number not more than 50 or 51 would be able to pay. The Noble and Learned Lord ( Lord Brougham), whom he did not then see in his place (Lord Brougham here returned to his seat)—th, the Noble Lord was present—the Noble a n d Le arne d L or d, i n hi s ti r ad e them ot m hf l a n i s pa h wa e pyi d tei hnr t hai portion patch a t o t their eht number hroef pl o ro f t ahtgo labourersfr ai ground. er u eu t r u n : d •a h. inl had a e b e o v u e r r e r b s e . against the Irish people, said th a t l a b our on th e rea d s h a d di t g en T it h i e th f e ac h t a w b a it s Th m e o y n c e o y uld n t o h w ey pay the labourers with neither, and, therefore, they were compelled to resort to the roads. The Noble and Learned Lord had re marked that the Irish poor were not ashamed to beg, and, therefore, they cared not to be employed. He (Lord Mount cashel) would instance the case of the Irish labourer in Eng land and in London. When in this country they were employed in English labour, and paid with English money, they wereas anxious as the labourers of any country to be at work. He only wished that the Noble Lord resided in Ireland—(Great laughter, much increased by Lord Brougham's gesture of feigned dismay)—he would then have been better able to de scribe the feelings and habits of the Irish people. Earl FITZWILLIAM said that it was not for the purpose of adding anything to what had fallen from the Noble Lord op posite (Lord Stanley) that he rose at that time to address a few observations to the House. He thought that every one would agree with him that thee ought to be grateful to the his Lord, an e d dip i a t onew ss o • er a re s principally for the purpose of recording references no( fEi s wtat a rhe c lea q Fst u : i atehznsevrtcgdoehiulntiaaehicdraemmibn; measure eh views ne t T e t advanced b beforey the th er Noble Lordships, Lord h t h e to be provisions introduced wis ed to say one word in exemplification yestatedinwtiht persons regard electedto the r t e o l i f e o f r m co t m h - 0 board of sittings of the relief He was of opinion that there ought came forward for relief powers. When h e was in Ireland last, he attended the in the measure, limiting these committee, and the first person who almost generally 40 acres of land. He was a man in possession of some 39 or ing appeal being made by t o he ray, that they must do the committee the justice to acquiesced in the propriety of relief; and that. was after a touch was in as great distress as priest, who stated that the man not admitting that person t He (Earl Fitzwilliam) had any person who could apply to them. doubt of the truth of that state ment. He was grateful to the oble Lord for the explanation he had given, and hi s on l y object in rising wa s , th at no d ou b t might exist as to hi s opinion on i' ' this subject. with Noble Friend who Lord 'NTEAGLE wished, to the Noble Lord had his pursmds. well as Meralsers of e li p as i l ,o l i a t s e t f . s r eo t tn, ce t a o rs r e etu h r e n the t almperial t I p : Irish proprietors,d lie r ready It was most im passe. fully wished per sonal sacrifices, and any pressure to vih , cn y ti o fl'ake , t h nY pe ' sub jected, if such s acrifice- or the endurance or be found benetienel to Ireland. .rut he ti: could draw his Noble Friend's attention to one or two point„;,,, " " present Bill. The first ~f these did not so 1 1001 - 1 arise . o . :1; "e of the Bill itself, as out of the constitution of the bo of com missioners in whom these extraordinary powers were to ho vested. That board was constituted of five members namely, Sir Johu Burgoyne, Mr. Twisli ton, the head of th e b oard o f works, the pea of the con s tabulary, and th e heat elf the corn • 141 f sat. N iw. t,. an y on,. acquainted with Ireland, o r who had tia-sed a half-hour in the office of e tiler of these official departments, it Aid louletling amounting to a farce to think that these Lord BROUGHAM said the statement was made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the course of his address to the House of Commons on Friday last, and that it was not gainsaid by any one who heard it.; Lord LUC.LN said it was stated at the last sessicras at Ba lli. nar 6,000 processes were issued ; uow he was correct in saying that 400 had lot been issued, and they were issued at the instance of middlemen for consere, because no ejectment could be made on such a process. When the Noble Lord talked about wishing to discuss the question with great feeling, he could not help thinking that the speech which the Noble and Learned Lord had just delivered was more acri monious than any speech lie had ever heard. He did not believe one word of the statement with respect to the eject ment'. Lord BROUGHAM said it was stated that out of 6,200 eases 4,000 were processes, with this addition, that this accounted for the immense number which had emigrated to Liverpool. He naturally thought they were ejectments and rant mere processes; for what could induce persons to come ever in such large numbers, except that they had been ejected born their holdings ? The Marquis of WESTNIEATII explained that the pro cesses were simply for debt, and not for ejectment. Lord STANLEY did not wish to offer any factious oppo sition to the passing of the measure, but was content to take it as a temporary measure—as one, however, which in his esti mation violated all the principles of political economy, and all the rules of common sense. It was a Bill which, if it had been submitted to him except for the purpose of meeting a ternporary calamity, and one which they all thought would lead to the preservation of large masses of the population on the point of perishing from famine, would hive encountered his determined opposition ; and he was satisfied that sn far from receiving the unanimous sanction of that or the other House of Parliament, it would have been found exceedingly difficult to have found any Member In either House to take the responsibility of introducing it.— ( Hear, hear.) He wished in the first instance to address himself to some of the provisions of the B 11, for the purpose of showing their Lordships, more especially after the sech which had been delivered by his Noble and Learned Frien p d, e in Which he thought he threw too severe a censure on the conduct ' 3 f Irish landlords, the almost irresponsible power which it Would place in the hands of the Government and of the local co mmitteese till applied under the Act. He wished their Lordships and the country to understand, and to have placed before them the way in which Irish landlords had voluntarily consented to be taxed for the relief of the indigent in their Own neighbourhoods, and how they had consented to hive that r elief dispensed. He did not think there was an instance in which so much power was sought to be placed in the hands of 'MY Government as was sought by this Bill. There was the Parer of local taxation to an almost unlimited amount, and ef 'suing money frog the Treasury without the control of the Executive government of the country. It appeared that the Lor d -Lieutenant was author iced to appoint a certain number L ot . persons to act in the capacity of relief commissioners, who °id unlimited power of appointing as many officers, and with as large salaries as might be required by the exigencies of the Thatea in anyse:First of all, the Lord-Lieutenant was to issue ord e rs, electoral district, or any division of it, which he might think fit to constitute, a committee should be constituted as a relief committee, which, with the exception that the resi dent justices within that district, and the elected guardians, must be guardians of it, was to be constituted by the sole will 11 14 pleasure of the Lord-Lieutenant. The inspector was aloe to be a member of it. This power of the Lord-Lieutenant fright lead to the exclusion of the landed proprietors ef the district. Alere committees had to frame lists containing the names of those whom they considered fit recipients of relief, with unlimited poser to select these in dividuals, and with unlimited power as to the number who were to be placed on the lists, and receive relief; and this committee, so constituted, was authorised to expend certain sums of money which they and the Lord-Lieutenant might think fit for the relief of those individuals. It might be said that there was a cheek put upon any undue expenditure by the finance com mittee. It was a check, but the check was only upon the local authorities, and not upon the Government. It was true the Lord-Lieutenant had the power of altering or amending the expenditure of those committees ; but he might amend the expenditure by increasing it—at least there was nothing in the Act to prevent him from leing so. The expenditure was, therefore, at the option of the three or four persons who con stituted the committee, one of whom was the Government inspecto r , and who were app o i n t e d at t h e w ill and pleasure of the Lord-Lieutenant, to incur what expenses they thought proper —there was no restriction. It was just possible that they might consist of parties who were not responsible for one farthing of the expenditure they incurred ; and let it b e b orne i n mind—let it be in the recollection of their Lordships, that the measure had r e ceived the consent of the I r i s h M em b ers of Parliament, andof. Irish Peers in that House, so deep was their sense of the pre sent calamity, so anxious was t h e i r des i re to do all in their power to meet an appalling emergency. lie did not say that their conduct was reckless ; but he said Po simply to show the great lengths they were prepared to go rather than allow the people to die from famine. It showed that Irish proprietors were dis posed to entrust unlimited power of taxing the whole property they possessed in the hands of those corn mittees.—(Hear, hear.) He would say that they had con sented to place their whole property in the hands of an irre sponsible tribunal. The way in which, without distinction of party or political feeling, they had rendered the control of their whole property, or rather the taxation of their whole property, into the hands of the Government, and of the Lord- Lieutenant, not only for the relief of thceet on their own pro perty, but those in their immediate neighbourhood showed that at that moment the Irish laudowner did not deserve to have imputed to him that he was indifferent to the sufferings Of the people, and that they were unwilling to take upon their Own shoulders the burden of supporting the people.— ( Hear, hear.) Then with regard to the British people, this Bill gave, for the first time, most extraordinary powers, because power was granted to the Executive to dispose of British money for the relief of distress in Ireland. ( Her, hear.) It was true the Bill stated that the loans for this pur pose should be limited to 300,000/. ; but unless he misunderstood the Bill, it gave, over and above, powers, with regard to which no limit was plact d, as it gave the Commis sioners of the Treasury power to make giants of whatever sum they might think proper in aid of the subscription raised in various parts of Ireland in aid of alleviating the prevailing dis tress. The Marquis of L A N SDOWN E— Sums voted for that pur ose—sums granted from time to time for that purpose by arliament. Lord STANLEY admitted that so far he was in error ; but of the definite sums they had no means of judging. The as he had said, was no doubt of a most exceptional character, and violated every principle of political economy. It might leave, as his Learned Friend had said, be hind it some evil, thou - ill it might do some immediate good. • It would lead the Peopl e to an habitual dependence upon the people of this country for support when their country was afflicted by any similar calamity. Were their Lordships pre pared to overlook them ? The other House had overlooked them before the prominent consideration that the people of Ireland should not be allowed to starve. There were no other considerations which could have justified the introduction of the Bill. The powers granted by it with regard to many public measures were almost unlimited, and with regard to the local taxation of Ireland absolutely unlimited. It was to the credit of the Irish proprietors of land, that not one word of complaint had been offered as to the extent in which the whole property was to be encumbered by taxation by irresponsible authorities. That was one of the provisions of this Bill, and which, perhaps, he should say, was snore objectionable than any of the others. It was a greater power than was ever before vested in any irresponsible body—that not oily they should fix the amount of taxation for particular districts, but that they should declare, according to their will and pleasur e , who w ere the persons who were to be called upon to pay it. That pro vision, strong as it was, was, in his opinion, infinitely less objectionable and dangerous than the one which was to be given to the Lord• Lieutenant of Ireland, shouidl3a w l; h fir r A. who not only l a y n t d o have the power of saying that /3 for B's poor, or A and B together should pay for their poor, but the power of saying that A, B, and C, being together, ct inhabitancyoccu ed, o a f n d a sh ou ld pay con j o i n tly for the district for which C might not be responsible e did not was it single poor person. The power was unlimited.exercisd, He but doubt that it would be wisely and properly le e ' He was not . an enormous power to vest in any single goin g ,_ as h e sa id b e f ore , objectionabsler- that t a st person e r.on till r w esal,os,ntsoibsiuligty gest any alt era ti on ; he would rather Ras left with her Majesty's Government,th or an that alter a ny attempt s hould be made to ma terially amend the Bill. He would rather it should a t once be passe d . Thi s was a gr eat na tonal emer gency, and these powers the Government deemed :nd, to bispense able. Th ey asked for their confidence, and it cugh given to them to the fullest and most unlimited exterlt ; rnd, although he was conscious that there were some provisions of this Bill which ought to be amended, yet, under these pe culiar circumstance., and the measure being a temporary one, it would be better that the Bill should pass as proposed by the Government, than that their Lordships should attempt to amend that which in all its provisions was so exceptional, that it would be difficult to interfere with it. That for which he•' r use principally was to express his earnes t h ope th a t o n this proposition—considering the readiness which the Irish !lernbers and proprietors in the other House of Parliament LEI f show n to met the views of Governm en t, i n l eg i s l ating or an immediate remedy for a temporary but most formidable tme rgency, the Gnverrn..nt w. uld be cautious how they ap roadie(' tho sehj,sis of a mor.• lif•r•ri en' rely f. ll"ar, f e ".) The ev il w hi c h m i g h t b e d one h, i mprovi d ent legis tiltl ation for th e next e i g h t mont h s m i g h t b e inconsiderable, but evil whie4 it would do if they introduced gentlemen, having superadded to their present the additional duties of this Bill, could undertake the business which would hi imposed upon them. The late Mr. Drummond, than whom no man was more able to cope with the work of the country— if they were to tell the late Mr. Drummond that he was to undertake the whole of the administration of the poor law in Ireland, to administer to twenty-two thousand and twenty electoral divisions, he ( Lord Monteagle) would be bound t t a o k s e ay th t i h s a d t u A t l y r . . ,, D T ru he ni n i , n a o s nd re ‘ i s p • of I t h w e i ll constabularynot. und e r for Ireland, why the House admitted last session that the con stabulary was in itself a great organised army, and could they believe that the bead of this great force could attend to the duty they were casting upon him? A better selection than Sir m John Burgoyne could not be made , or be tter fitted to ins p ire confidence in the Irish people with res p ect to the future administration of this law. But with the exception of Sir John Burgoyne and Sir Randolph Routh they had no man on whom they could depend for the well working of this Bill. He wished also In refer to a matter connected with the constitu tion of the Bill. The letter of Sir George Grey and the Act itself admitted the fact of large contributions being expected in aid of the funds, and the privilege of such contributors no minating certain persons to the attention of the relief com mittee. It was true that by the admission of this patronage they might calculate nn the assistance of some who would have otherwise remained neuter, but still it was reasonable that the persons who contributed somewhat liberally should have in some degree the power of distributing the funds they had created. There had been much discussion in Ireland on this point, and the general opinion was that the subscribers of twenty guineas and upwards should become cx-qfficio members of the fund committees. With reference to the principle of enforcing a rate with the wants of each electoral division, he thought that such a principle was calculated to throw Ireland into a state of irretrievable confusion; they would require to issue warrant upon warrant, and thus they would be adding difficulties to what was in the first instance far more easy. A Noble Lord had drawn a contrast between the people of Ireland and of Scotland. He described the latter as a proud and independent people, who would rather die than submit to beg. He recognised in that speech the characteristic of the country. He (Lord Monteagle) would at once admit the superiority of the Scottish people, but he would ask, what had been the effect of out-doer relief on proud and inde pendent Scotland, where the people were so independent that they would rather die than beg for food ? They had the re sults before them. The House would remember that, ac cording to the hypothesis of the Niisle Lord, they were an inferior race on whom they were to try this new experiment, and, therefore, if with a country like Scotland the measure had failed, what security had they for calculating on Ireland ? He was about to read from the report of the Poor-law Com missioners, and there, in a letter from a mutual friend of his own and the Noble Lord's, he meant Sir George Sinclair, that gentlemen stated, as the result of the first year's experience of the poor-law in Caithness, that the rate exceeded 800/. per annum, and that incendiaries were busily at work, inciting the paupers net to take sixpence per day for their labour, which was a larger amount than they had ever before earned, and he concluded that, in a few years, unless some plan were adopted to prevent the spread of the evil, the greater part of the landed rental would be absorbed for the mere maintenance of the paupers in the district. Here were the Scottish peasantry so proud, so independent, so unwilling to beg from individuals, reduced to beg from the public. He (Lord Monteagle) would throw no impediment in the way of this Bill; but he hoped the measure would not be pressed until _their Lordships had well considered its provisions. wy f r o i h g u on h d t : t ot o iuol a nd c ob la fe im ainshd o au f mst o er u yd t i t n o d wt beghr e Lord BROUGHAM was apprehensive lest, by giving a relief, we oo would nd t r not i y t w b o b e u e aa d us hs d ea e ms manyter d o y t o t p h ge e or v s ao e nn r dys claim relief at their parish. Lord CAMPBELL would not institute a comparison be tween the poor of any country ; he thought that, all over the world, people would rather be idle than work. The offer of gratuitous relief was, he believed, universally demoralising. He hoped, however, that the results of passing this measure would not be so dangeroua as the Noble Lora (Lord Monteagle) had supposed. He did not think that the applications to the poor law guardians would be so frequent as seemed to haunt the imagination of his Noble Friend. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in reply, said that he begged their Lcrdships to remember that when he introduced this measure, he stated, in the strongest terms, that he con ceived the measure to be objectionable—as a permanent mea sure, utterly objectionable. Principles like those contained in the Bill often crept into the Government without its being at first aware of the evil. The measure was called for only for a short time, and under the most distressing circumstances, such as he was not prepared to contemplate without making some effort to relieve. He was quite prepared •0 admit that many abuses had arisen under the late Poor Re lief Act. but he believed, that if that measure had not been passed by the Legisliture, there would have been, by this time, at least half a million of persons who would have perished for want, and of whose existence their Lordships, the other House, and the Govern ment, would have been accountable. It could not be denied that a considerable amount of good had been effected under that measure ; those works which bad been considered as useless and unpredictive were only exceptional cases, and not the rule. He quite concurred in many of the observations which fell from the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley). He thought, however, that questions referring to the better secu rity of property, and the improved constitution of the boards of union guardians would require the most serious consideration of their Lordships previous to the introduction of a poor-law for Ireland. He thought also that it would be a great benefit to reduce the number of small tenements, and he should be happy if, by the passing of a measure to that effect, the tenants were driven from their small and precarious hold ings to a more certain and safer mode of obtaining their exist ence. He thought that under all the circumstances of the case the present Bill was the best that could be introduced, and he hoped that their Lordships would not refuse their sanction to the second reading of the Bill. The Bill was then read a second time. Their Lordships then adjourned. papers o:is day, it appeared that the Lord-Lieu tenant had dismissed twelve magistrates for being guardians of this union. He asked if the re port was correct, and also what steps had been taken to supply the places of the dismissed guardians, and whether any instructions had been given to recover the 1,0791. of poor -rates due as arrears. Sir G. GREY said it was quite true the guardians of the union ha I been dismissed, but it was not by the Go yernment or the Lord-Lieutenant, but by the Poor-law Commissioners, in whose hands the power rested. The step taken would require, according to law, that a fresh election of guardians should immediately take place, and if those do not discharge their duty, then the Poor-law Commissioners would appoint paid guardians. Tie had not received notice of the question, or else he would have brought the letter of the Poor-law Commissioners with him ; but that, with the other papers respecting the Castlebar union, would be placed on the table of the House in a kw days. Mr. P. SCROPE wished to know if it was the inten tion of the Government to prosecute the guardians for their heinous neglect of the poor? They had refused out door relief under the most distressing circumstances, and a hundred persons had died in the workhouse, on which inquests had been held. Sir GEORGE GREY replied that he was in posses sion of no information at present as to what course would be taken. Mr. SCROPE said that perhaps the Attorney• Gen eral would answer the question. Mr. F. FRENCH said, the Hon. Member (Mr. P. Scrope) should have given notice of his question, and the Irish Members would have been prepared to answer it. THE WELLINGTON STATUE. Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY wished to ask the Noble Lord, the head of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, whether any application had been made by the committee of the Wellington statue to remove the scaf folding around it, and at whose expense the same was to be effected ? HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 15. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. WOLVERHAMPTON RATES BILL. On the motion of Mr. BROTHERTON, this Bill was read a second time. WOLVERHAMPTON GAS BILL. On the motion of the same HON. MEMBER, this Bill was also read a second time. SHEFFIELD MARKETS BILL. On the motion of an Hox. MEMBER, this Bill wars read a second time. LEITH HARBOUR DOCKS DUES. This Bill was also read a second time. SHEFFIELD CANAL BILL. Mr. PARKER moved the second reading of this Bill. Lord MORPETH was of opinion that this Bill should not be proceeded with any further. In the year 1815 the Sheffield Canal Company purchased the lands and tenements of the river Dunn navigation, subject to the expense of repairing the roads in the district. I❑ the year 1836 a similar Bill to the present was introduced, which was negatived, on a division on the second reading, by a majority of 36. The Bill was afterwards thrown out in another session by the recommendation of a Committee• appointed to inquire into the subject. He thought it. was hard that the townships should be called upon periodically to oppose this Bill. He would, therefore, request the House not to allow the Bill to pass t►_tro ugh any further stage. Mr. PARKER said that clauses mig . ht be introduced in Committee on the Bill for the protect ion of the town ,hips referred to by the Noble Lord. Mr. B. DENISON said that there .was a strong case for refusing to read the Bill a second time. A railway company had now purchased the canal company, with all its responsibilities, and they now sought for a Com. move, in order to throw off themselves the obligations they had entered into with their eyes open. Mr. BROTIIERTON thought there wex•e ample grounds for this Bill K ink into Committee. Cal tain E ;ERTON said that he had been very strongly canvassed to come down to the House to support the second reading of the Bill, and a statement had been put into his hand, a peru,al of which had indueed him to come down and resolutely to oppose the further pro gress of this 13il!. Mr. S. WM?, I'LEY said, that in consequence cif the Learned Counsel who had cluirge of the interests ,o , f the promoters of the Bill, nut having been able to attend .our, the Con mitt.' anl the conduct of the case being eft to a junior, it was no wonder that the Conan tittee not 13;-: able to understand the nature of the Bill, aed that it was summarily dismissed He hoped that the House would allow the Bill to be read a second time. Mr. sTiturr thought that the Bill ought to 13,1 al lowed to be read a second time, on the ground that the till did not receive a full &IA perfect hearing before the Committee upon the occasion when it was refer Ted to them. Mr. STANSFIELD opposed the further progrel ;5 of the Mil. Mr. WARD hoped that, after the speech of his Rig ht Hon Fiend (Mr. Strutt), they would allow the Bill be read a second time. The points under dhcust;iwo might be considered in Committee. E. I)ENISON thought that this would be a most unusual step. He would oppose the further progress of :he Bill. Lord MORPETH—Directions had been given to the sculptor to remove the remaining portion of the scaffold ing, which prevents the view on the north side, as they conceived a sufficient view was not obtained at present. —(Laughter.) Certainly they (the Government) thought a sufficient view had already been obtained. The question was before the sub-committee and the sculptor. The sub-committee had stated, that after removing a portion of the sciffolding, if it should be opposed to the views of the Government to have the statue remain, they would remove it. The Government was of opinion that the northern side of Waterloo-place would be the best site. Mr. MACKINNON would ask the Noble Lord (Morpeth) if he was aware that it was considered an indignity to remove statues during the lifetime of those whom they were intended to honour? Was th• Noble Lord aware that in Pompeii some statues were placed upon arches, and in almost exactly the same poei don as that of the Wellington statue?—(l aftghter.) Lord MORPETH—With respect to what the lion. Gentleman stated, it could not be supposed in the present state of public opinion to remove the statue, and with respect to Pompeii, it could not be supposed that art was in the most perfect state in the days of Pompeii— (Hear, hear)—and it should be recollected that at that time there were more violent methods of displacement. FACTORY BILL. Sir W. JAMES wished to know whether it was sin tended to make any change with resp ec t t o th e educa tion of factory children, and to employ the female chid d craernce in l • 'riet-w was orks? Sir e e e G. to the GREY, first whopo point, spoke ,the understood to say that, with re fnchildrenotfeeeesto b in e scarcely audible, so low a in education print-works, it was unanimously recommended that such education should be afforded. With regard to the second ques t i on , th e su bj ect was un d er con sideration, and a Bill would be brought in upon the subject. With regard to the third point, he was not prepared, in the absence of further information, to give a decided answer. Mr. BRIGHT understood that there was a clause in• troduced in the Bill which the House had under consi deration that fully met the object of the Hon. Member's second question. Sir G. GREY said there was a general report of the factory inspectors, recommending that certain portions of machinery should be cased in to prevent accidents. That recommendation was under consideration. THE POOR IN IRELAND. Lord GEO. 13ENTINCK wished to ask some ques tions of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to the Board of Works in Ireland, and the employment of destitute persons in that country. The first question which he wished to ask was — What was the average weekly amount paid to each officer of the Irish public works, the number of whom were 11,587; what wars the highest and lowest rates of wages paid to the officers of those works; what was the gross amount of maintenance connected with the Board of Works during the month of January last; the gross extra expenditure con nected with these works as regarded clerks, etc.' the gross cost of maintaining the destitute poor since January; the quantity of corn bought by Government for that purpose and the quantity in bond; and, lastly, what was the ratio of the expenditure of the staff as at present existing in proportion to the persons employed ? Sir GEORGE GREY was unable to give the answer to the first question of his Noble Friend in detail as respected the poor in Ireland. The first question put, as to the weekly amount of the money expended for the relief of the destitute poor in Ireland—the answer to that question was, according to the returns, 88,5871. The next question, as to the number of the persons employed on those works otherwise than labourers—according to the returns of the officials employed on these works, it was 486, and the number of persons employed as labourers on those works was 10,897. The daily pay of those persons is 2,7741. The Noble Lord then asks the amount of the weekly pay of those parsons, and if he would multiply this amount by six he would find what the aggregate amount was. if the Noble Lord would turn to the same blue book, page 19, he would find that the highest pay of the engineer was 30s. a day, with 10s. for travel ling expenses, with an addition of 10s. per day when they were out. The lowest pay was for the surveyor of the works, which was 2s. per day. The Noble Lord then asks, what is the actual cost of theses orks, and the maintenance of those who were engageto survey their execution. To this he might reply that the actual cost was 2,7001. odd per day, and the general average cost of the week was 78,000/. To the Noble Lord's inquiry as to the expenditure during the month of January he could not reply, but the expense during the four weeks of December was upwards of 71,000/. He was not in a condition to say what the extreme expenses were, but he might say that the actual y of the workmen was from Bd. to 10 d. a clay, and he extremest p••ints ranged from Bd. to ls. 4d. for the daily pay during the three months of November, De cember, and January, for the relief of the destitute poor. The expenditure upon labour for four weeks in the month of November was 308,351/. ; for the first four weeks in the month of December, 588,045/., and for the nine weeks of December and January it was 1,500,0001. The amount of corn in bond during those periods amounted to 218,000 quarters.—(Hear, hear.) should Mr. P. SCROPE gave notice that to-morrow he ask a question of the Government, whether, under the pre sent law, the boards of guardians in Ireland were respon sible for the relief of the poor ? and if they wer e, whether i the guardians of Castlebar o u ght not to be prosecuatnef_ under the law by her Majesty's Attorney-General; if they were not whether any steps would be taken to render them responsible in future? HILL. OPERATION OF THE PUBLIC WO RKS Mr. ROEBUCK stated that he had a petition resid to n pl sent from a poor man named John Hogan , Ho g an, d i e g out Dire in the county of Limerick, and w hich ma he was rather a curious case of hardship unde r which suffering. lle stated, in the petition, that ha hre3 the agents w " it Y h short time since, were in number four, a his son, were employed on the public of the Government. He had the misfottur , to lose o ne of nd in con e of the members of his family—a daughter, a die works, sequence of his loss he was dismiss ed from time on he and his son having been employ ed for s U om n e der this them. His son only w as re tained. to the board singular case of hardship he app lied that they of relief, and their answer went on to say that could not relieve him. The petition oppression it was lamentable to allow such determinedno asingle to be exercised uon a poor family who heal to be, found in perch of land, there were instances whilst , and also the locality of people who had land s n these works, and money in the savings' bank, working. an d cor nvorlts, oso of enablingpure them to pay their rent better. BAILWAYS IN IRELAND. —ADJOURNED DEBATE. Colonel RAWDON presented a p etition from Armagh in favour of the Bill introduced by the Noble Lord the Member *Lynn. The Marquis of GR ANBY hoped that the House would extern 1 its indulg ence to him whilst he endea vouredke som e observations upon the measure , now undrttho m the coansideration of the House. H could assure the House th at it was his anxious d e esire to ab stain from saying anything which could excite a personal feeling. H e hoped that he m i g ht b e allowed to say , . t hat lie heard with the deepest regret the determi • atton which the Noble Lord. at the o had come to head of the G overnment respecting ,q this for measure; be had hope d from the assuranc e his Noble had given to the Noble Lord at the head of the Friend • Government, that he proposed this measure, not in Ministers but as a , hos tility to her Majesty's of , means of faci litating the carrying out the measures proposed by the Government, it would have been favourably received by the Governmen t. The Noble Lord the Member for Lon don said he could not support the Bill, and also ex pressed• if his determination,defeated on it, to resign.— Be(the Marquis of Granby) was • (Hear, hear.) quite sure the Noble Lord was actuated by high and patriotic motives ; bat he reeretted the determi nation, as he believed it would be for th e i n j ury of Ireland. He would not go into the comparative merits of the measures of the Government and the Bill now under consideration. as he did not think the two schemes were incompatible. In considering any plan of relief for Ireland, he would not enter into the causes that had brought about the present state of that country. IVhether it had arisen from unwise legislation, or from the conduct of absentee! landlords—whether it arose from any peculiarity of disposition in the Irish people, or the s ye tem of letting land which prevailed, he would not affirm; but thi s h e wou ld sa y, that there were only two practical modes of meeting the eeil—either by e ditninutieli of the population, or an increase of capital. Thee was no other remedy.— (Hear, hear.) Now the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London had said, that he had no Government or general plan of emigration. Though he (the Marquis of Granby) thought a good deal might be dose in that direction, still he did not think it would be a cure for the • vile which afflicted Ireland. The next course, therefore. was to introduce capital into Ireland, end as from the state of the country and the want of Lord MORPETH would press the matter to a divi sion, even after the speech of his Right Hon. Ficiend (Mr. Strutt). The liouse then divided, when there 'appeared, For the second reading Against it Majority against the second reading ... -- 5 The Bill was consequently lost. SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time:— Birkenhead Improvement (Waterworks and Purchase of Birkenhead and tilaughton Waterworks). Bristol and Clifton Oil Gas Company. British Exchange Company. Caledonian Railway (Edinburgh Station and 'Branches to Granten, &c.) Eastern Counties Railway Extension. (Cambridge to Bedford, &c.) Eastern Counties Railway (Cambridge , Royston, and Ware line, &c.) Glasgow, Paisley, and Greenock Railw ay (Branches at Port Glasgow, and to the Caledonian Railway and Diversion of Canal). Leeds, Wakefield, and Midland Junction Railway. London and North-Vi r estern. Railway (Bescot and Wolverhampton Branch, &c.) Lon.lon and NortY,Western Railway ( Ormskirk and Rainford Branr_di . , &c.) Ply:walla an d "'ay:stock Turnpike Road. Salisbury and Yeovil Railway. Whitehurn and Kelso and Lauder and B,:( Aso Roads. Tavistock Turnpike Road. RAILWAYS IN IRELA Mr. B. OSBORNE gave notice, thr x in the event of the Bill to stimulate the profitable er aployment of the Poor in Ireland on Railways, introduce 1 by Lard George R-nt;.nek, beitig thrown out, he shou lc 1 move the fol lok; lug resolution—" That is the oph 3 on of this House that one of the rent means of pros to tang the profit ubie "PPl"ympot of the neople, s,nc t of deveiLipinz tth rt, , sourees of I',-elaud, is . for the C:ovt Inn:tont tirrnalte milvaovei to sue) rr,il , ,vnys in Irel and as shall, in the jod;.:lo4..iit of the , Ratixay C..ourdi•io t iers, be works to b, of nortmstient tydoty, and ,e,ileulated to en- Lid 00 I , l,.timr burd. , n upon the countrj 7. Dr. HO WRING moved that the pr :titian from Malta, date l e t r h: 2 c . ) r bi t , February, , he print( d with the Votes. Lord N a i t Right Hon. )uNc B t A h ,lt t, U se N e L .n O g N. ll,, vlce, roo to as k ''r a t c i h n e ?,-thi) e : e n m res i P ) : P e a ti r n t g ni th n e t "" ;bar union.. Emig a repo 1t published in the confidence, from whatever cause, which prevailed in I then proceeded to read extracts, showing that, as re regard to it, private individuals were not prepered to 1 gnrded his industrious habits, the Irishman was not introduce capitol, the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member 1 second to the F,nelish labourer. There might have for Lynn would be the effectual menus of doing so. 1 been eases of idleness and inattention, but as a people, His Noble Friend had shown so clearly the benefits that h e could assure the House th a t no men had performed Ireland must derive frond that measure—he bad stated their duty • better. The Right Hot. Gentleman the so eloquently the employment it would give—the new lute Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Goulburn), had markets it would open—the increased value to that coun- stated that he spas quite inclined to bow to the opinion try in the most essential points—the benefit the poor of his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland. man would derive, not only from the employment it The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that enterprise would give, but from the industrious habits it would and capital had succeeded in forming railways in cherish, by attaching him fully to the comforts of England, and he wished to know why the same capital his home, that he thought it would be one of the and enterprise should not have been sueceesful in form most desirable measures ever proposed.—(Hear.) He ing raialways in Ireland? Why, the Right Hon. Gentle would refrain from expressing any opinion of his own, man might, perhaps, know, th a t th e c li mate of Italy and but he might be permitted to quote the opinions of others. the south of France was favourable to the cultivation of He would call the attention of the House, in the first the vine. No capital in England, without the aid of place, to a memorial presented to Lord Besborough forcing houses, could ever bring thevinetogpliearh in 1846. The memorial was from the inhabi - fe.ction ; nor could they without the aid of English tants of the city of Dublin, whose Mopinions capital and enterprise ever form railways in Ireland, or certainly ought to be considered on such a question. ever make them available for the relief of the people. (The Noble Lord here read the document in question, There was one of the best lines in the country—that which stated that the memorialists were aware of from Limerick to Ennis. At one end, of the line there the strong opinion of the country to promote railway was a population of 60,000, and 12,000 at the other, and enterprise, from which they expected the greatest pos- serving a population of from 100,000 to 400,000, and sible good would result ; that 40,000 persons were which was calculated to take in the accommodation of a employed by the works then in operation ; and pressing hundred miles of river. He had received a letter this the matter warmly on the attention of his Excellency.) morning from a gentleman in Ireland, and it confirmed He was not arguing that in a country where employment all the views that he (the Marquis of Granby) had ad was ample, where food was abundant, where artificial vanced. The Bill of his Noble Friend would confer the wants had already been established, where happiness and greatest benefits on the people of Ireland without any abundance reigned—he was not arguing that in such cost to this country. He hoped, however, they would a country as that they might not quicken the pulse of that not look to the results that would follow the mere ex country to a feverish and unhealthy action; but what he penditure of the money, but to the increased prosperity was saying was this, that in the present low of the country, and the various other concomitant ad and unfortunate condition of Ireland a system vantages which would arise—by which not only the of railways well carried out might produce the present distress would be alleviated, but the foundation most important benefits. Amongst the other important laid of permanent good.—(Hear, hear.) He begged to effects a system of railways must have in Ireland at the thank the House for the patience with which they had present moment, he thought would be the means of faci. heard him. litating the transference of fish throughout Ireland. Mr. BROWNE said that the 20th clause of the Bill pro- He held in his hand a latter he had received from vided that one-third of the stock should be advanced by the a gentleman in Ireland who was well versed on this sub- shareholders, and that the Government should advance the re ject, and for whose talents and integrity he could vouch. mainder on the security of the undertaking. Now this was a It was not, however, written for the purpose of' assisting mercantile speculation, and he doubted if the res ult iau would be t the Noble Lord's motion, because it was dated, and he any thing but disastrous. All railroads in Ir elan d d w e such cir e c re u received it so far back as the end of October, 1845. present at a dscoun h t i etcept three;e s c h em eand, that could un be considered he writer said, that at the end of October, 1845, er stances, fav did that the circulation of paper- he was in Galway, and was much interestd with money v ,v o h u e rable. not l t t was n would not derange the monetary affairs of the country, the proceedings of the Claddagh fishermen. The but if any one looked at the history of the financesof this coun herrings were on the bank, and he observed try, he would come to a different conclusion. Many applica at least a thousand boats stand out to sea. The corn- tions for the reduction of duties in various articles had been munity were under the direction of a king, whom they made to the Government, but if the revenue was burdened in obeyed more implicitly than any other monarch. the way proposed, there could be no attention paid to these ap- The thousand fi shing boats brought in, on an average, plications. He trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would 8,000 herrings, which sold at the rate of 10s. a thou- sustain the national faith, bat if that were to be done, all use sand, or 120 for is. This number was equally less i o l l n o d ne u l ni i t v e i nry tr e u x a p t :n i d h i e tu a r h e n m ul u d st no bj n a e voidFd.— d (H t ear d .) on divided among the fishermen, and before the close make, or o t z at in such observations he should think it right to m of the day they were sold to purchasers who anything he should say he should be supposed to be averse to attended with horses and carts, to hawk them over the the extension of railway communication in Ireland. On the country. Eight thousand herrings at 10s. per thousand contrary, he was of opinion that no means could be more fairly came to 41. per boat, and the gross amount was, or effectually applied to develope the resources of that country. therefore, 4,0001. per day. The shoals of herrings He considered, however, that the measure was exorbitant and continued off the head of the bank; but the King of unreasonable in itself, that its benefits to Ireland were ques- Claddagh would not allow any of the fishing.boats to go tionable, and that its effects would be injurious not only to the out until the hawkers returned.—(Hear, hear.) Thus public interests, but to the credit and commercial character of the United Kingdom. It wasnot his intention to refer to the va four days elapsed, and on the evening of the rious objections which had been'made te:themeasureby speakers fourth day the horses and carts arrived, and the in the former part of the debate, but there was one to which he fishermen again put to sea. It was plain that begged to call the attention of the House, which was the Oa if railways had existed 4,0001. worth of herrings grant immorality of the measure. There was no one more might have been fished on each day, and con- convinced than he was of the purity, the patriotism, and the veyed throughout Ireland and to Dublin. Thus, for philanthropy of the Noble Lord who introduced the Bill, but want of rail ways many thousands of pounds were that was not what they had now to consider, and he had no he lost, and the evil was the more ielt because sitation in calling it an extensive scheme for the encourage for want of these railways no curing was carried on ment of railway gambling under the auspices of the State. He in consequence of the very high price of salt. trusted that in making that statement he should not be consi- It bad been objected to the plan of his Noble Friend, dered guilty of misrepresentation or exaggeration. What was that there would be such difficulty in carrying it out, that the definition of gambling ? Was it not staking money on they would never raise the 16,000,000/ e and that the , creditless adventures in the hope of realising large profits? Well, If that . were a correct definition, he could not believe that any plan would therefore be refused. But he did not think that this country is as in such a condition that the sum m rn e e t a , a t rt t yl lr m i x would ruilwa cluesraatueutteurmweaasugafuorautheinesnecuouurerafued could not be raised. Ile would not obtrude any opinion creditless adventure. y They had only t y o look to the prostrate of his upon the House, because it would be of no avail; but condition of railway stock in that country , to be convinced of he did understand from a friend of his who was well ac- this. He did not know what the Noble Lord the Member for quainted with the finances of the country, that it Lynn would say to this, but it was the only criterion by which was preposterous to suppose that four millions of the matter could be tested, and, in his mind, the verdict was money could net be raised in this country during conclusive. Now the whole scope of the argument in favour of the year 1447 for the relief of the destitute the measure was, that the credit merely of the State was lent poor in Ireland. Another objection was, that the people na to en e ta xec w u n t n e ld th ie f' re un . patl rak ru f r ,hen that u th h e d i n t:l:g e t d of England would' object to the imposition of a tax whether such expectations would be ve e v v y er m realised. He for the relict of the people of Ireland. The Noble did not doubt but, by the proposed plan, a certain Marquis thee read a series of extracts from the account value would be given to the shares in the various lines to which of a friend, which stated that on last Monday morning there the Government advances were to be extended, but this would were no less than 44 corpses lying dead in cue house, be but temporary, and they would soon subside into the same and that over one hundred bodies had been deposited state as they were before. The wise were convinced of this in the small burial grounds of Skibbeieea and the from the . first e , aid t w h o e nl irl a r v u e de n n f tthweosualdd reality. It convinced twa by y o the neighbouring places, and that in those places no less. sad theyl fo p r e e r , le t n h e rough the influence of some del ' u y sion that what than 401 bodies had been found apparently dead from therefore , starvation, and that not less than 1 , 600 victims they now, in their lucid moments, considered valueless, should be thought valuable from Government assistance. He to this terrible calamity had fallen within these considered he was speaking most justly in designating few months.—(Hear, hear.) Would the people of the scheme as one that held out encouragement to England refuse assistance in such a case es this, or a system of gambling.--(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord on hesitate at any measure calculated for the effectual she eloquent and lucid speech in which he brought forward relief of the poor in Ireland? He was quite sure that at the measure, stated that one benefit to be conferred by it the present moment no such measure would be refused would be that the Irish landlords who had shares in these for the people of Ireland, and the only difference be- undertakings would sell them In order to improve their estates tween the plans of the Noble Lord opposite and his with the proceeds, but the Noble Lord told them in the same Noble Friend was, that the latter would enable breath that the way to improve Ireland was to construct rail the Government to use the resources of the ways. He hoped the House would not give its sanction to Government, while the former would not. The such a great act of public profligacy. It was not a year since Right Hon. Gentleman had said that some time the House resounded with denunciations of the pernicious sp a i m ri b tahich t T h h en t p s e p r it y r ad iteiw e r d the countr with respect to he ra h il o w e ae d must elapse before the railways could be formed, and they would not that during that time no return for the money would be give their sanction lying t od c i l e o r p m re a p n o t a , ai a of d the Noble p coming in. He did not see the Right lion. Gentleman in Lord the Membr for Lynn, and resuscitate- its slumbering his place then, but he was quite sure that he would energies to work the same evils. be very glad to hear that no such circum- Mr. Alderman THOMPSON was rather surprised to hear stance could occur, for there was a clause in the the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down ;designate the Bill which provided that the interest of the money Bill of the Noble Lord as a measure for the encouragement should be paid by the Irish railways. This was not all of immorality in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) It was much to be r f egretted that the Hon. Member had not been in the House —he would go further—he could prove that not only ing for soofme manyt imerapial railway otherwise iills ( q a m u i 7 g h h t t er h ) ave t he i sl i o a pKt u d hla pass would not a single farthing come from the pockets ofiiendthe English people, but it would put money beside him, reminded him — that with respect to some of the into the Treasury. He would take a p a ssa g e from railways in Ireland, both Houses of Parliament suspended the the Spectator of last week, and be supposed standing orders, that their passing might be facilitated. that gentleman could not suspect it to be a paper likely In his opinion, the present was the very time that the Govern to be unduly influenced by his Noble Friend or his ment ought to assist Ireland. The Hon. Gentelman had in party. It said that it was not only the magnificent pro- stanced America. But let him ask the Hon. Gentleman, were mises which could be seen in the proposition of not the large canals, public roads, and other great works, for the Noble Lord, or in the elaborately lucid the most part performed ;by the Government ? He believed that the l objections raised to this measure might be divided into sp soh of the proposer —it was the specific privatetwo. n en th te e rp fi r r i s s t e pta w c i e t t h w v c s h saLt e h rn at m r e a nature of the object at which he aimed, and the nittwastsoiviillrenO7nirieterrly explicit account of the way in which the plan was ex- fere ; and in die second place, that it would derange pected to work. In all these respects the plan stood in the financial system as laid down by the Govern formidable opposition and contrast to the plan of the ment. With regard to the first objection, several Ministry. It was like the substance placed op- cases had been cited where Government had come forward posite to the shadow. They had these laid for public works, not only in England, Scotland, and Ireland, down all the Noble Lord's data—they might be dis- but even in the colonies. The principle laid down by the puted, they might be falsified, but, then, they were noble Lordhadbeen already approved of by a Select Committee challenging scrutiny. Three Chancellors of the Ex- of that Home. That Committee had been appointed to con chequer had got up one after the other, and not one of eider this subject. Of that Committee some of her Majesty's them had attempted to deny any important fact or state- Government were members. In page 7of that report, among the remedial measures proposed for the improvement of ment of the Noble Lord's.—(Hear, b ear .) Hi s N o bl e Ireland, was the promotion of public works, and Friend had said in his speech th a t t h ere wou ld b e theCsomm o it f tee theexprilosen!e seriously their desir the of he calling the liaudest been question. 600,0001. or 700,000/. put into th e T reasury f rom the attention i n crease of the Customs and Ex c i se un d er t h e A Billwas introduced for that purpose. He to himself operation of tee Bill ; and co u ld th e y say t h at consulted on the B i ll, and the honour was even done him of that was no advantage to the people of England? employing his name in it. He must allude to what had been The measure wo ild, therefore, put 600,0001. or 700,00 e/. said as to there being less distress in the north of Ireland' than into the Treasury.—(Hear, hear.) An endeavour had in any other part of the country at the present time. Now it been made the of der evening by the Right lion. Gentle was owing to the employment that was found for able-bodied man the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to prove that the labourers on those railways that that distress did data of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was false. not exist. It had been also said that the Irish He had asserted that the scheme, instead of employin would not he em p lo y ed on those railwa y s ; but 112,000 men, wo u ld on l y fi nd em to ment fogr were there not hundr e ds of them employ ed on railways at pre. 45,000. It was not hi s (the ..fa of sent it this country ? With regard to the financial part of the q u u n e d s e t r i o s n o , m h e e fiwnaitsnrcleal d i ffic u lty, to im i t w tl i i i alt h a e ffe countr y i labouring n w q a u s estion sh l y Granby's) intention t o go i nto these calcu latiops at any len g th, as t h e Right Hon. Gentle- th e Government securities. The Bill of his Noble Friend the mans statement had been most ably exposed by Member for Lynn did not propose to increase the taxation, and the Hon. Member for Newark and' the Right before Government was required to do so there would be ad- Hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Hudson). vanced a sufficient sum to proceed with. Four millions had They had sh own t h at i nstead of calculating for been advanced for East India railways, for the liability of the four millions of money, he should have taken Indian Government as t we t s confirmed ihtris ie b s y si :. o h n e ld Government of ti six millions, and that he had committed a this lre an countr y. great mistake in setting down the earthwork at onl as w ell as in India? He regretted y that the Noble Y Lord did not feel it his duty to adopt the Bill even in a 25 per cent , of the whole cost. Now, he would call the modified shape. attention of the House to one-Irish line, which was the Mr. F. FRENCH said be was anxious to say a few words most favourable to the present plan, in proof of the in explanation of some statements which were made by the incorrectness of the statement of the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to Ire- Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer— land, but before he could do so, he desired to it was the line from Dublin to Mullinga bear his testimony to the laborious res earch of the and Athlone. The earth wor k an d l a b our o f that fi ne r Noble Member for Lynn, and his admiration he o f f or t e he th lu e e . 4 and cost 3,6001. a mile. Now, it was said that a million of clear method in which opinions e hep de la b c t ed nf his gratitude; he had been thee money would employ 45,000 persons ;if so, a 1,000/ Ireland firs t statesman owed who had d the courage to come forward and lift would find employment for 41, or 3,600/. for 162 persons. coun try had so long withered ; and the veil under w h hich nae t d h p e Therefore, accordine. t i the Right Hon. Gentleman's his example should be followed by those who would in future own principle, a mile of the railway in question would attempt to govern the country. He felt it his duty to repel all employ 162 persons. Now this was an unfavourable charges which reflected on the character of Ireland, and he specimen of what the Bill would do ; inasmuch as, while cared not whether those charges proceeded from those to this line cost 9,0001. a mile, and 3,6001. a mile for earth- whom he was politically opposed or otherwise, for, work and labour, 3,600/ per mile had been pail for th e come they whence they might, as long as he grand canal, making the actual cost but 6,4001 (Hear.) possessed a seat in that House, he would raise his It had been attempted Lobe denied that the Noble Lord had voice in defence of the country. The first circumstance to no right to assume that 500,000 persons would derive ein• which he would allude, was the statement made by the Chau pleyment from his plan; but he could not understand that cellar of the Exchequer that the Grand Canal owed a sum o case of 100,000 e which had never been repaid. Now the facts of because men were employed in e a rth wor k s, t h at their thatTh families, who might not be employed in other ways, would e Gre Grand were c these:—The eeal w h when t sum orig ina lly het.tnnwas lent, len t w had an income 4 nc 7 ont oL m of be benefited. The Right Hon, Gentleman bad said 50,0001., and they bad a clear profit of 300/. a wile. They that the really destitute would not be relievt d. How were anxious to extend the line to Ballinasloe, and had there could they create any great work of improvement, any been proper security taken, there would not have been even a great reproductive work, and not employ able-bodit d sixpence of the money lost. But the Chancellor of the Ex men ? Why, it was imposs,ble. If 112,000 men were chequer of the day took a security upon a line not employed, would not they be of benefit ? The Right made' which was and wholly whichand entirel y . bog. was to run through consequencewas a country T Hoe. Gentleman had also said that the contractors would that that portion did not pay either principal or interest, and not take all the labourers from the immediate neigh a compromise had been lately offered of 10,0001. for the whole bourhood of the railway s.—(Hear, hear.) He be- debt. The fault lay completely with the Chancellor of the lieved that all the labourers would not be taken Exchequer, who lent the money upon bad security. The next from the immediate:neighbourhood, but no doubt a large statement which was made was in reference to the sum of number would, The Right lion. Gentleman had stated 12,0001. to the great city of Cork, which is annually rated at that all the railroads went eastwards, while all the dis- two or three hundred thousand pounds. This sum is reported tress was in the west. Was that the fact ? Were never to have been paid. This was a like case with the former; there not railways from Waterford to Limerick, from and he would ask the Heine if proper security had been taken Thurles to Cork, from Waterford to Cork, from Cork in this instance? Was it likely that the city_o h f er C e ork a s s voLl o d to Blackrock, and other parts of the country in the not have paid the_ debt?—(Hear,_ hear. ) T western parts of Ireland ?He feared also that the sum . of one . hundred . thousand p ounds lent t w f ec b ut a i i t l y d two bridges in Limerick, and t h e on l y • House Supposing the distress was not in the we st of Ireland. taken was the tolls upon the bridges .—( Hear. ) L et the House Supposing he was correct in his second statement, that all railways were on the eastward, what was the naturalsum merely from the tolls arising from t suchconsi a der whether a place like Limerick would be able h t r o id re e pl of wan Noble bridges conclusion to come to, but that they would take their This had been done during the Chance ll orship t he House — he meant Lord labourers from those districts in which was distress and who did not then an abundance of labour ? Well, but it was said this Monteaele would be taking the labourers from agriculture. He ad- avail t fo h r eT e elveso i "I drainage of their estates. But they were pro • The e a tu s o e n a of ut money i n Ireland ' granted last had year endeavoured h y way u to f slated at once that this would be a great and serious loans themselves of the provisions of evil, bat when he reflected that two . millions of people tenants vented, for rr ilif e tha c cl on b id een no d t e a c v i il de il d by the Lord Chancellor that u ort the Bill of Noble were nearly dying of starvation from the want the Bil.—( of employment, he could not help thinking that!rvitece- tibliCalllithenohtasd s upp ort stated, the and he with in favour of th e . amendment. e with all their aid and assistance, there would r.o wouldel for ac c theer- _-(Hear.) n r e e a g a i r s y . o ) w n be a sufficient number left for tillin g the land. Mr. NEWDEGATE said he would support the measure of He did not think that there was any danger of a want of the Noble Member far Lynn, which he considered well calms. dated to meet the exigencies of Irelaiel.—(Hear, hear. H e bands to cultivate the land ; but the Right Hon. the had been surprised at the Right Hon. Member for . Por Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that the Irishman mouth, and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor ofthe ts- Exchequer, stating that these railways never would regy the was incompetent, either from his physical energes, or l o n s e e al gr e e o a n t e li r n n es proposed his industrial habits, for the labour required on rail !vays • capital, on account cf being merely tehnePeeleilaidlYintgh directions . It concerns, e de ll Why, they found that the Irish peasant was superior to hiedto intersect t h t they e y Irelandw ere such, in the Englishman, and he would read . to the House the se- to wa s we known to every gentleman in the House, at all could be no better investment veral proportions of the two countries. He found that the conversant with e E height of the Englishman was sixty-eight works rd this kind, that there inches, and the Irishman seventy; the a verage weight th an th roug h lines of railway, which not only took up all the of the Englishman 15 llbs. L of the Irishman leelbs ; the traffic of the district s th roug h which they passed, but accoinmo average strength of the Eng lishman 403, and e i. t h e e a s e d the terminal traffi c o f the principal parts of the kingdom. Irishman 432.—(Hear. hear.) He thought, therefore , r—( flear, bear. ) A great deal had likewise been said, in the t h a t there existed no p h y sical reason wh y the Irishman progress of this di scuss i on, about the principles of political economy, and of th e i r vi o l at i on by the s hould cot be employed on railwa y s. The Nobl e L 9 rd present Bill. But was it not absurd to talk of political economy in the present state a Ireland, when the people were starving? The circumstances of England and Ireland were altogether different. During the last eleven years there had Bills passed for 7,200 milts of railway in England,'of which one-third, or 2,600 miles, had been completed, leaving yet to make 4,600 miles. In the same time Bills for Ireland had passed for the con struction of 1,523 miles, of which but 123 miles had been completed, leaving yet unconstructed 1,400 miles. By this it would appear, that while England h a d con. structed one-third of the lines for which Acts had been ob. tained, Ireland had constructed but one-twelfth, and of this one-twelfth they had been told that the great proportion of capital had been subscribed by England. If this were so, and if such a small proportion of the Irish railways had been made. the result could only be attributed to the deplorable condition of Ireland during the last few years. To talk therefore of applying the principles of political economy under such circumstances wal perfectly absurd.—(Hear, hear. ) The people of Ireland required employment, and the plan of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was expressly adapted for the purpose. There was a vast amount of capital in this country which at present could only be employed in Government securities, and he saw no better mode of employ ing it than by the carrying out of the works contemplated by the present Bill. He admitted that there were evident signs of a coming financial difficulty and a commercial crisis ; but that was in connexion with the present monetary system, and the altered circumstances of the country, occasioned by the abro gation of the protective system last year. The commercial difficulty which he apprehended would, therefore, arise out of the present monetary system, and the excess of imports over exports, occasioned by the legislation of last year; but because there was a probability of such a crisis, were the peo ple of Ireland to be left to starve ? Was no provi sion to be made for them ?—( Hear, hear.) He submitted that there must, and that the Bill now under the consideration of the House was well adapted for the purpose. The Hon. Member then p rocee d e d to show how the present monetary system operated against the extension of railway and other public works, and in support of the views he advanced, read a long extract from a letter which he said he had received from an esteemed friend, in illustration of the injurious effects of the currency measures of Sir R o b ert P eel. He believed that the real difficulty existed in the monetary system. Why four millions annually was only a part of the means adopted to meet the emergency of the war, when the expenditure of the country was 73,000,000!. Was there then any real impossibility to meet the exigencies of Ireland ? In 1843 the income-tax was ten per cent., while now it was only three per cent. The whole of the tax proposed now was less than nine per cent. Could they refuse to raise less than one-half ? He believed there was no difficulty, and if there was a difficulty, it arose ' from the monetary system. The difficulty, if one there was, arose from speculations in foreign railways, and when the crisis has come, and when the bullion might be assorted, the specu lation in foreign railways kept capital short. He asked whether it was wise to restrict one department whereby the exchanges were regulated, when the other department was confessedly employed to restrict the enterprise of commercial capital ? He saw the Member for the city of London smile, but he only spoke on the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and if there were no difficulty there was no necessity for restricting this accommodatio4.—( Hear, hear.) if these opinions were erroneous he alone was responsible for them ; but he would turn to another podit. He believed that in 1835 the drains for gold on the Bank began, and with the commencement of that drain all the difficulty arose.—(Hear, hear.) He must confess that he felt considerable surprise at the spirit in which the Government had met the proposal of his Hon. Friend. Mr. J. O'CONNELL felt considerable difficulty in giving his vote on the present occasion. He felt that there was one great benefit in the Noble Lord's proposal, and that was, that it promised immediate employment.--( Hear, hear.) But the Irish Members felt themselves in this difficulty, that while the Noble Lord at the head of the Government promised immediate employment, yet the plan of ti.e Noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord George Bentinck) promised something commensurate with the distress now ex isting in Ireland. He was quite ready to allow that the Go vernment and the people, both within and out of the House, had evinced the warmest sympathy for the people of Ireland, and he did hope that the Government would have taken up this plan, and even if it were modified, that they would have car ried it out. France had adopted some such plan, and it had been discovered that in their taking possession of the railways in that country they had found their account. Not only had the Government of that country realised all they expected, but had obtained a dividend out of the returns. The plan of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn seemed to give the only chance of getting the relief that was necessary, and for that reason he would give his humble vote for the motion of the Noble Lord opposite. He deeply regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have felt it his duty to advance a position that the officials in Ireland had not done their duty. He deeply regretted this, because that Right Hon. Gentleman had stated to the House, when something more than 300,0001. had been advanced for s wide street in Dublin, that nothing of this sum had been repaid. This was entirely a mistake, and he would take the paper which had been given in a return of the moneys carried from the English to the Irish Exchequer, and the contrary. By that paper it appeared that the remittances front the English Exchequer to the Irish Exchequer was 7,000,0004, whilst the remittances from Ireland during the same period, that was from the period of the union till last year was 26,000,0004, making the difference in favour of the Irish Exchequer of 19,000,0001. Was this any proof that the advantage had been all on the side of Ireland ? Then there was a question respecting the expenditure of 500,0001. on the part of Eng land for the improvement of Dublin, but the same principle held good in this as in the ether case. By the financial returns it would appear that 3,600,0001. were advanced for the support of the Irish police. Now, if this were solely and purely an Irish loan it would be proper that Ireland should pay all of it, but it must be recollected that the constabulary of Ireland did the duty of soldiers, and if this police force did not exist the army would have to be extended by some 7,000 or 8,000 men. Still the sum was in the course of repayment. With regard to the roads and bridges there had been upwards of 600,000/. advaneed to Ireland on that an , count, of which all had been repaid with the exception of 24,000/. He must now go into other matters. In the Scotch isheries upwards of 1,400,000/. had been expended by the public exchequer since I 809,while the amount advanced to Irish fisheries since /800 only amounted to 300,000/. Now, he found that although large sums o f money h a d b een advanced to Ire land, the treaty of union had been violated by this country ha its fiscal provisions and other of its provisions. He did not in tend to go into minute details upon the point, but the House might rely upon the figures he was about to quote ; indeed they could be proved by Parliamentary returns. Since the union Great Britain bad been relieved from taxation to the extent of 47,100,00 W., while Ireland had only been relieved to the ex tent of 2,670,000/. The taxes imposed on England since the union amounted to 40,120,000/., and the imposition upon Ireland was 5,510,000/. 'Therefore England had had an excess of relief from taxation over the amount imposed of 6,500,0004 ; whereas Ireland had experienced an excess of taxation amount ing to 2,800,0001., a sum greater in amount than the relief given. On these grounds alone Ireland was entitled to a large measure of relief in her present emergency ; but the relief would be useless if the House did not follow it up with mea sures to raise the general condidition of the people. It was their bounden duty to do so in strict honesty to their own interests. At all events, it they did not do so, they would leave themselves open to a recurrence of the terrible calamity which threatened to drain the coffers of the country. The condition of the people must be raised, and then Ireland would be in a position to repay the debt. But, even supposing Ireland should be unable to repay the whole of the debt, if their condition were improved they would be able to repay this country in the shape of an increased revenue. Out of thirty millions paid to the revenue of the United Kingdom Ireland only contributed seven. Now this was by no means proportionate when it was remembered that the population was as eight to eighteen...-. (Hear, hear.) The truth was the people of Ireland were too poor, and could not afford to purchase excisable and customs-paying articles in proportion to England. There was, besides, a large quantity of foreign manufactures consumed in Ireland, upon which the duty was paid in this country, which were estimated at the value of 380,000/. per annum, and some 60,000/. or 70,0001. derived from Crown lands, for which Ire land was not given credit. The people of Ireland were taxed at the same rate as the people of this country, but they were too poor to be punctual to the same extent. Ho might men tion a simple hypothetical case, as an illustration of the position of the people of Ireland. Supposing a local rate of one penny in the pound were levied upon meat, the poor man purchased his two pounds and paid his twopence, while the rich man bought his eighteen pounds and paid his one shilling and sixpence There was excess of taxation here. The poor man, in proportion to his money, paid the same as the rich, and that was exactly the position of Ireland. Now, what the House should do, would be to endeavour to better her trade and condition, and thus enable her to contribute her proper share to the revenue. Mr. CORRY explained the course which he adopted when he was invited to join the Irish party in their deliberate, tions, namely, that before he took any other step he should wait the result of the Government measures already proposed. He agreed with his Noble Friend that the construction of rail. ways in Ireland would be productive of much good, but he thought they would be ill adapted to relieve the present dis tress which prevailed in that country. He considered that it was the duty of the State to arrest the progress of the famine, and he was glad to see that her Majesty's Government did not hesitate to come forward to meet the emergency. They had already expended nine millions for that purpose. He could not assent, therefore, to the great additional outlay which was pro posed by this Bill. He did not take so favourable a view of the calamity as to suppose that it would terminate with the next harvest, as the scarcity of the seed for this year's crop, and the anticipated failure of the potato crop again„ were not such as to warrant such an expectation. He, there. fore, thought that the resources of the State should be hue. banded, and kept to await the possible continuation of a state of things much worse than the present. Besides, even if they did expend all this money, they might find, a' the expiration of the four years, that the withdrawal of the expenditure then would leave the people who were dependent on it in as helpless a condition as that which it was intended to relieve. Ha thought, moreover, that it would beget a feeling of dependence, which, more than anything else, contributed to depress the energies of the Irish people. The scheme was a d a zzling posal, but lie did not consider it would be a just rt r o n n ea o u f measure the people of this country, and that a great portion i instead of money would go into the pockets of the d speculator._ those for whose benefit it was intend: should, there. fore, vote against the second reading di r e I e I3ill. Bill. He was not Sir WILLIAM CLAY opposed out of the hands of the disposed to take so large Government. such expenditure. He did no n t measure e ,nisider the House e ofd did d Co n tn o na t Commons did its dut s y in Idditi"agdsvuanced to railway companies at 34 why ceme°t.nev,:hsehrthe market rate of interest was so much higher. It was sa id that Government interference with f res h ra ilways was agai nst the principles of political ccono niy ; b u t, . t h o ugh be was opposed to the measure, he could no t assent to s uch a doctrine , for he believed that many of the measures formerly adopted, and now advocated, partook of the same nature. He thought, however, that though the Houle should not legislate for speculators, they should take care that a good system of railways should be constructed to develope the re sources of the country. They ought, however, to follow, not pre cede, the development of commerce, as they did in this country. It was also said that railways would not afford immediate relief to the distressed labourers; but the point of fact was, that the earthworks to be executed would afford a very considerable amount of labour ; and lie was inf , :rmed that the Dublin and Cashel Railway had been willing to have made the wh o l e o f their earth- wor k s, from one end of tke line to the other, but the presentments were refused, and the money was expended upon public works, when it might have been more profitablji expended.—(Herr, hear.) It was to the future which he most looked to. They should not alone examine the preseof pressing calamity, for it was necessary that the" should endeavour to restore a sound social system', which would not he until there was a perfect security for the investment of capital, either in commerce manufacture, or agriculture. A system of railways would bS most beneficial to Ireland, as it would be a means of den. , loping the application of capital. He therefore consider that the question of a system of railway extension was wet worthy of the anxious consideration of the House ; and h i , hoped that the Government would devise some plan whie,'n wee k involve the principle of the Noble Lord. Mr. SHAW said that he did not mean to enter into tbf. particular merits of the measure before the !douse. His feel. ings would lead him one way, but his judgment and reason let him another. Considering the Oat:anent which he heard it L re- tha t le to east IP `..y to