The Sun. — London, England, 1847-04-20 00:00:00

aided and encouraged by the proposal is such as could lead to the gibbet. (Hear, hear, hear, and cheers.) Another course has been taken in oppo sition to this measure, by a gentleman whom I regret to see opposed to the plan before the House. The amount of that gentleman's argument is this—that there is a certain class of peop'e in this country which is found in con nexion with vice and crime, with ignorance and brutal sensuality; and in that condition the people must be left. For them no means of education are to be provided Imprisonmsiit, transportation, and the gallows are for them, but none of the milder means of religion or know ledge. Sir, Ire ver can consent to such a ins position as this. lam not disposed to entertain extravagant opi nions upon the subject, nor do I suppose th tt vice will be effectually overcome, but still I trust that the number way be diminished, and that not only the path of duty. but the path of worldly advantage, point to education ; and I hope that by this means many may be rescued from the hands of crime and misery, and we should then have the happiness of saying that we had performed the duty incumbent upon us, and we can with better conscience and mere satisfaction to ourselves, say to the criminal that the punishment which the laws inflicted upon him we had endeavoured to avert as far as in us lay, and that we would have led you to the paths of virtue, and it is not by our law that you have come to this disgrace and punishment. — (Cheers.) 'With respect to some objections urged against the particular plan before the House, I cannot help saying, that I think there is. considerable force in them; but still, although the measure is not exactly what we might wish, still it must be borne in mind that we had to deal with a great number of existing schools, which already occupied the ground ; and which, according to their own system, ought to impart educa tion in the way that seemed to them - the most likely to produce the desired result. I must confess that I think the measure would have been better had it pro meted a more general system of education, and one in which both the children of the members of the Church and those of Dissenters might have joined. The first of these in point of numbers and amount is the National Society, in connexion with the Church of Eng land. There are more than 900.000 day scholars in their schools, and the amount of their funds is very large. The rule in all these schools is, that the liturgy and the catechism shall be taught, and there is likewise a neces sity that all th. children shall go to the Established Church on Sunday. They have now relaxed with re gard to the rule, and leave it to the managers of the schools. But we had to consider, in 1839, whether we ought to have attempted to spread over the country one general system of education, and one that did not agree with the British and Foreign School Society and the Dissenters. It would have been very unwise to have made such an attempt in 1839 as now, and Ido not think that the prejudice which existed against it would act otherwise than to create division, and eventually failure. We said that in 1839, with regard to the Church schools, they were to act according to their own views, and that we would not interfere with religious instruction in any other way than that the Church inspectors appointed by the Privy Council should visit the schools and report as to the kind and di gree of education given. With respect to the other schools, we stated that we would not inter fere with respect to the ri ligious instruction given in hem, but with regard to the secular part of the instruc tion—that the inspectors should report upon it and upon the state of the schools and their effiiiency. Now, Sir, the rule adopted in 1839 with respect to the building of schools, and adopted now with respect to the educa tion of the pupil teachers anal stipendiary monitors in Church schools, is. that there shall be on exami nation of the pupils in the Church catechism and the liturgy, but: in scheels not. connected with the church of England no examination of that kind is to take place except as to the secular branches of learning. We con fine our examination to the secular branches of learn inn. It seems to me exceedingly strange that there are many persons who agree with me that education ought to receive some assistance from the State by a grant of public money—agreeing with me that it is not sufficient that voluntary efforts should be matle—agieeing with me that the state of crime calls for some effort on the part of the Government—and yet say that these rules con tain such a violation of the liberty of conscience, that they cannot assist or even partake of any grant, pro ceeding trim such a source. Yet these are the same parties who in 1839 consented that schools should be built from public money in the proportion of 18s. 6d. to the peund, and t hat in the schools the liturgy and catechism of the Church of England should be used I own that I cannot under stand the nice distinction which these persens make on this occasion; for be it observed it is not a a questicn in which the Church of England arrogates to itstef the power of superintending the instruction or the people. All that the Church of England asks is this, that in her schools—schools raised by the Church of England, and built by members of her communion, that her liturgy and catechism should be taught. It seems to me to be a scheme not of a compulsory nature, but one in perfect accordance with religious liberty, and with which Dissenters ought to he satisfied. ll', indeed, the Church subscribed a much larger amount than the Dissenters, then of course they would be entitled to a larger share of public grant. But that was not a differ • ence in principle, but one which arose from its prac tical operation. Ido not, therefore, see why the Dis senters should refuse to acquiesce in this grant in con sequence of part of the money going to the schools of the Church of England. This is not the whole of State education. It is only in aid of voluntary effort.—(Hear, hear.) We take the schools exactly where they are situated. We find the schools existing in the respective localities. We impose upon them ne terms which are not in accordance with the rules which are established for their manage ment. To say, then, that the State should not under take the education of the whole - people might be an ( b pb y jec no ti m on ea w n h s e a r p e p s l u ic t le a to th t i i n ie g p w r a e s sen p t ro s p e o h s o e m d, e, b_u ev t e i n t was by ( large ll e a r 11,11 hear.) of s p ir u , bl i i t c m is on s ez id w t a h s a t t o s ild e ev t o ,t t h ed e to b it t . i — beer, scheme of education might be proposed which w r ojd more to the purpose—that it would be better to confine ourselves to secular education—and, with regard to reli gious education, not to interfere, but to leave ic. to the ministers and religious instructors of the various de nominations. As far as I understand Dr. Vaughan, he had no objection to assist the Church of England schools or those of the voluntary societies ; but he would have the j es psetees of the State take no notice of the religious instruction of the pupils. Now, that is nearly the same thing as we are proposing to do, and 1 think that this is rather a distinction without a difference. But there are others who speak of a secular education, and ah.e mean very differently—a school was to be etabislied by the State. and he sch m aster a Sette officer, and to have nothing to do with the communication of religious instruction, which was to be lett to the respective ministers of the parents of the chil Iree. This view was brought for ward by the Heti. Nlemhor for Bath some veers ago, but to such a scheme I hive the tnost decided objection. To omit altogether the inculcation it relistiotts duties, to omit the of th lose of God and the love of th -it neighbour, would be in my mind a great, is se rious, end an irreparable loos,. I ti,i!.k no advantage of uniting the yarn u. religious sects, would comp .n sate for this apparent declaratiiin on the part the State, that secular education alone would ellil ase rai ttee and Council named some one to whole the -meabishop had no objection. Such was the state of the Tetestion when the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the M . _ ember for Tamworth) came into power, and no change ,„74 , made by him with respect to the appointment of the Zt,alittee of Council. Those who had been Ministers d o ule Crown immediately ceased to be Menityss of the p until . The Right lion. Baronet opposite (Sir Robert a loh Lord Stanley, Sir James Graham, became Meru , rs of th e C ouncil, and Lord Wharncliffe being Presi bitidt of the Council, bessame head of the Committee. I ewra than One conversation with the late Lord and "liff4 On the subject, as I was connected Pose have been with the British and t o eL ICu School Society. And he consulted me from time ing rile as to what should be the relations between that a, 4 7 and the board. , He proposed that a sum or u at' should be granted—the propesition emanated r a fonner Government—for the purpose of a normal 0 0 (4 - I advised them to accept that grant of the bounnittee. At a subsequent period Lord Whart.clitle m o °ll3l e 4 the secretary of that society that he should pt the same rule with regard to it as had been ° P te d - to the national schools, but that he should not i ?Point the inspector without their concurrence. The saY Peetor did not, according to their orders, make examination as to relicious instruction. Sir, the r e fi t Continued to be made in this form, and various were granted which from time to time were in rut:ed. until it reached the sum of 100,0001., and that t o l d w ail granted, without any discussion of importance It o " place. When, however, we come to consider the irate of educatioe, it appeared to us, as a very great tuber of schools had been built, that there was no l n t ee 4 Such a demand for money for the purpose of e st4blia schools. The system of monitors has been led by Lancaster and Bell, but it d i d , not answer aketorily on account of the early age at which the etdren left sch oo l, so that a boy who had only a years' cat ion himself was a very unfit person to teach well, Ftwagitivoen the proper comprehension of the subject of to a school. It was therelore proposed that L i certain enna should be allowed in each school for the 7 POte of inducing a boy to remain some years in w uG ult till h e thereby became an efficient teacher. It ltd them likeeise, that when the masters gave to training of the pupil teachers, and render tlltg them efficient in their duties, that there should be a te r !t ill Bum of money as an allowance made %hd " • It was proposed with regard to some other teachers In which there were nst monitors and pupil r 0041 ...t that there should at once be established sh it .' 4 rs, who likewise received a sum of money to in ns: them to remain at school. These became stipen to Y monitors4nd there should be an allowance made tit .. I: usters training and teaching these stipendiary el tors. It was proposed likewise with a view to the .112Provement of the normal schools, and for the better s'fitentation of those resorting to those schools, that a 1.." 111 of money should he granted for the purpose of pay f; those pupils who should be most promising, and who . 1 4o:1d be recommended by the inspectots of the school, ther with those who were at school, for the purpose In being trained in normal schools, and that there should be an a ugmentation o f t h e sa l ar i es o f t h e masters of schools who had been trained, and who should obtain a ertificate of proficiency. There should be a cer t a i n 'mot of money lik ew i se for the encouragemen t o f p ro per tahrdens and wo r k s h ops , w hi c h has to those persons, ° h ave taken an interest in &cation, been at various times a very desirable object. It has been always my 'ne ve of tits the only way ttlicieutly to raise the educa.ti , ,m s t ilo country will be to raise the condition and pros q ofof the schoolmasters. It has been my view, often o c'ften expressed in this House, whether in or out of { S •' or;et c that the d ru d gery o f sc h oo l masters was no t MY rewarded, and leading t i no prsspect of advan v,:,!_t it way such that men o f talent and abilities who , Brea trained to that purpcse, cannot but leave it in a number of instances for other and more , Wetable occupations. Such has been the view fi l h I have not only taken myself but which It i s tld confirmed by that of others.—(flear, hear.) hee; of immense . importance that these schools should efficient teachers. and that there should be some anemolument or reward given ; the latter more eominvet ,, .:Thais with the great duties which they had to perform. ...se e is another propesition which I shall have to make. ; th t 4 w•ti a - any grant wilt be wanted for it this year, hut for : 1 ; 1 be required, in all probability, next year—it is ha ve Purpose of pensioning off those s choolmasters who th itt - , ; . 14 e, en worn out in the service. No one can deny ele e ,;,.." 3 ,highly important for us to do all in our power to 4 - - the ehat'acter and posits -n of the schoolmasters. q pr a l surprised that so far from the country ate n i e c i ss 'N itselt alarmed at the minute of Council, it Welt nave exclaimed—" What, is this all ? it is V , so far, but it is not equal to meet the evil fcr e . a Z i4 complained of. It ought to be a larger and a pros e T e r r la u." Sir, I have said before, that I have not teeir e 'L anything but what has been settled on for N it Years, and repeatedly referred to. It has been *f li e r) I know, that this is an unconstitutional body du makes the grant; but to that I will answer, that th e ! not think any course can be more constitutional 07_4par Miuisters to come forward with an explanation p u le t th ey intend to do, and to depend on a vote of s ame ay for the grant. The question now is the no t _ ' lB lo 1839, 'when first , brought forward. I did iiii.rticipate such objections, least of all from those who bi en . br ought forward this opposition, viz., the various th sou ' at i _ i ng ministers of London, and the various bodies In the the country, who applauded the Government eli ners ur.se they adopted in the year 1839.—(Loud of Co o ) n I trust, therefore, that the Committee foreed tte n ,eil will not be considered as so "'e an evil as it was once supposed to be. the t an I am not, Sir, going to discuss to • ar ge question at the present moment. I wish P°int the att en ti on o f th e H ouse to h ow f ar th ese ar a4lov nts are endeavoured to be applied. Sir, it is lin- Possible not to see the drift of those arguments. Sir, it 15 a gain said that there is sufficient already done for edit ti"), that there is no need of any further assistance; that the p e ople of England are as educated, or if not so !olaldete - ly educated at present, they are in the way to be so completely educated, that it a ould he superfluous for the legislature to interfere. I wish that I could con cur in that representation of the case. I. wish I could say that the voluntary efforts had done so much, and that the education of the people was so complete, that we need not trouble ourselves here with the matter, which I confess is one of great difficulty, and one which cannot be touched without exciting the feelings of bushy opposing persuasions. The case is, however, far o therwise. I will not, Sir, attempt to go into minute steatistics as to what has already been done upon this 41 ulisct, but I feel that lion. Member. of this House who save paid any attention to the subject, or who have read 1111 Y pamphlet upon this subject, or who have attended to k ` m e education in their wn neigbourhood—Cheers) th ' 44 must see that the o education of the people el is c ountry is lamentably deficient. Upon this subject I W ill take the statements of one of the opponents of this 132 ., easure. I reg ret deeply that lie should be one of its Plaments, because his learning, his zral for the public V piety, , and hisreader bun deserving of the respeet le - "try la erson—l mean Dr. Vaughan. That gentle V I II , an article published in the BritiA Qum er'y eifi elo, and which has since been puba , hed with his - tune, st ates th at o f th e whole population of E , gland , ', 171 d Wales, between the ages of five and fifteen, found to d aY schools, the proportion would be somewhat less au one- third, about an rival number in the Sunday and the remaining third not found in any schools 1, 1 7‘ Y, evening, or Sunday. Statements of a similar n itore b. " been made by Dr. llook, and otte r porsons who t e devoted considerable time and attention to the cau-e of e ducation, e ducation, and all concur in agreeing, in opposition t he statements of Mr. Baines, that the education of s tatement is extremely defective.—(Hear, hear.) This -t-e4ement does not, however, rest upon statements of this sort. It will be found, by a re•erence to the mar• 'mite registers, that there are forty out of every 100 married who cannot write their nemes—shirty in every 0 who cannot red.—(Bear, hear.) This, we saust own, is an immense proportion, when we consider that the schools of 13 , 11 and Lancaster have been established now for upwards of forty years, and that voluntary education has been ever since that time doing its utmost to overtake and subdue this amount of ignorance. In a report furnished by some inspectors who were sent down to inspect and report upon the state of education in schools belonging to the voluntary esta blishment, it is stated that there are great numbers of Persons who are not in the habit of attending any place of public worship, and to whom the name of God and Christ was utterly unknown. Not many years since I referred to the statement of a chaplain of one of the county gaols, I have lately consulted again the report of that gentleman ; he is a person who has taken the greatest pains to inform himself of the condition of the persons brought into that place, and in that report he states that during his three years, stay at that place the performance of his duties has brought him into contact with 1,733 men and boys, and 387 women and girls; and of these the majority could neither read or write, and Were also ignorant of the name of God and of Christ, and of such things as virtue or vice, holiness or heaven. There was a case, Sir, .in which some of the boys be longing to a school were desired to read that chapter of St. Matthew's Gospel containing an account of " the marriage in Cana in Gallilee," who were utterly unac quainted with the meaning of the word marriage. With r espect to the secular education of a number of prisoners . 1 4 one of the gaols, it was reported by the inspectors , that there were 90 persons unable to name the months of the year, 104 unable to tell the name of the reigning Sovereign, 108 who could not define the meaning of the terms virtue or vice, and a number of persons who were unable to count as high as 100. Sir. I confess it ap- Pears to me a very shocking thing that education 'a not given to these persons until they are sent to the gaol.— (Rear, bear.) There are many occasions in wllich pri stoners had been induced to bless the day in which they 404 1 been sent to prisons, because they have after their d ischarge conducted themselves in a respectable manner a nd earned an honest livelihood. But, Sir, is it not desirable that before the people reached that place th ey should, while young, while impressions • ? 114 be easily made upon them, be instructed in their knowledge, and in their duties. One of the abl est opponents of this propositkon was recently speak ing against it at a public meeting in this metropolis, and 1.311 t hat occasion some one in the body of the meeting put wrantitilsni;:_. hand the followinr,; question, which he gave in Is it not better to put a sign post at the be• gin ning of a man's life: than a gibbet at the end of it?"— rar• hear. a n d l ou d c h eers. ) I w ill no t, however, ti t It t he remark made on that occasion by the speaker, b e e TI M Mr. Burnet, who asked with a readiness which theul well can command, " What if the sign-post led to ,Ribbet?"—(Hear, and a laugh.) I admit that it was ...Clever answer, and one we ll ca l ca l a t e d to catch the 'lting, but I must remark that there is nothing in the tan which I propose, and which shall be laid before the full—s plan calling upon the House to agree ~,,""L l oo. laying out of money for the purpose of aiding the e `4Pols of the Established Church, of the schools of the 4-l e t al 'ePting congregations, of the British and Foreign ~74 011 , and of the Wesleyans—which could . justify • . --"'" "Mg that the education whicb to be There will be the same number of officers ; and, instead of these appointments being given to those who say "they are quite sure that the gentleman they recommend is a staunch political adherent "—(Roars of laughter)—that he, besides that, " reads and writes very well, and keeps accounts very well," and that he is in all respects well qualified to fill the office which they seek to obtain for him—(Continued laughter.) Now they will merely say " tl.at he reads and writes very well, that he keeps accounts well, and that he has b e en religiously brought up," omitting alto. gether the political part of the subject—(Cheers and laughter)—so that the assertion that this is a great scheme to increase Government patronage is a most idle apprehension.—(Cheers.) Sir, with regard to one point, which is indeed touched upon in this resolution, and which I am aware, entails very great hardships on those who attend many of the Church schools ef this country, as there is a refusal to parents to allow their children to come to these schools unless they will learn the cate chism. and attend the school and the church on Sundays. —(Hear, hear) —with regard to that rule, we neither promote nor encourage it. If we had made it a condi tion on any of those grounds, that any of those funda mental rules on which the schools are conducted, should be departed from before they should receive aid from the State, we should lose the advanta A e of having such schools well instructed and conducted as they are at present. But for my part, I cannot but think that the Church itself will gain a great advantage by allowing parents to send their children to these schools without insisting upon the children learning either the catechism or being required to attend Church on Sundays. —(Hear, hear.) I believe that the rule of the Wesleyan body is this :—that it allows the parents to educate their children according to their own religious convictions ; and that I think is the best and at the same time the most charitable rule, as it tends materially to diminish that ill-feeling which might otherwise be en gendered. I shall receive with pleasure any improve ment upon the rules to be adopted in the schools with respect to these things. Ido not think that this grant of 100,000 L, of which a part will go to the dissenting bodies, would entitle the Crown to exercise an undue influence over voluntary societies. I say again, I should like to see a change with respect to the rule adopted in the schools in connexion with the Church ; and I say further, that if any body of Dissenters are willing to send their children to the Church schools, but which t hey are prevented from doing, by the existence of this rule, I think that would be an additional reason for granting aid to that place, in order that a school might be opened where all the children of the town or village might attend.—(Hear, hear.) But, Sir, the question is the scheme, being—as I will admit it is—very imperfect in many respects. The question is whether you will not, in any way, try to combat the evil which Dr. Vaughan describes in terms which I will now read.— (The Noble Lord then read an extract from a letter by the Rev. Gentleman, stating that the children of the poor were growing up in ignorance and poverty ; and that unless these evils were obviated that they would become a source of danger to the St a te.—(Hear, hear.) I own, Sir, I cannot but consider after reading that passage and feeling imp-essed with its truth, that any one should be an opponent to this system of education.—(Hear, hear.) On my own part, seeing the evil is great, I am not dis posed te wait till I can get a more perfect schi me. I inn disposed rather to feel my way—to proceed as well :is we can- e until at length we may tind that there is some scheme which possesses a higher claim to be con sidered, as one which will promote, in a greater degree, the intelligence of the people of this country, and on which those of cliff rent persuasions will unite and emu late each other ill rendering them most conducive to the eultivation of the people—then I she!! be happy to en ecurege a scheme of education whica will meet with the concurrence oF those different denominations. In the meantime, all I ask you fur are these means—inade quate as they are—with the view, in seine degree, to aispel that ignorance—in some degree to promote religion and virtue among a great mass of the people. When I ask you to do so, I am well aware of the opposition which this scheme has met with—well aware that it would have been easier to have shrunk from the task, and not have asked this House to grant anything more than the millions upon millions which already have been granted to the military forces of this country; it. would been easier to have said, " Let us have the usual millions which you have voted from time to time for the army, and navy, and for the ordnance ; but we will not ask for a single farthing for the purposes of education." But, Sir, that would not have been consistent with the duty which we feel pressing upon o improve as far as iu us lies, the school teaching in this country—to assist, as far as in us lies, in giving a knowledge of the ways of virtue and knowledge—of the truths of religion to many of the uninstructed masses of this country ; and be the opposition what it may—however formidable it may be at this moment—however formidable it may be—and I lament to say, that such is the case, and that the proposition has withdrawn from us the aid and support of many who " through good and evil report " have supported our political mea sures—be these evils what they may, it will be a consolation to me to know that I have made an attempt to diminish the empire of ignorance, and to raise the people of this country in the scale of virtue and religion, so that they,may take a high and enviable position amongst the people of all the nations of the world. —(The Noble Lord resumed his seat amidst loud cheers.) Mr. T. DUNCOMBE then rose, but owing to the noise which prevailed occasioned by many Members leaving the House, the commencement ef his observa tions were not very distinctly heard. lie said, no one could be so unreasonable as to blame the Noble Lord for the course he had adopted on the present occasion, bccauso he believed he was conscientiously discharging his duty ; but, during the twenty-or.e years he had the honour to have had a seat in that House, he did not re collect a Prime Minister of the country ever paying so great a compliment as to notice an individual Member of that House, particularly so humble a Member as him self, and to condescend, and if possible, prejudice the minds of the House against the motion which he (Mr. Duecombe) had placed upon the paper. The Noble Lord might call his view of the matter an " idle appre hension.' His consolation was that these apprehensions were participated in by thousands, by millions of his countrymen. The Noble Lord might call his resolution a vote of censure on the Government, and a want of con fidence in her Majesty's Privy Council. If he chose to adopt it as a vote of censure, he must do so; but if he asked him if' he had any confidence in the Council— or rather in the Committee of the Privy Council, that self-elected tribunal who were to be intrusted wan the carrying out of' that scheme—in that tribunal he had no confidence Whatever. However the great question involved in the metion might suffer in his nands yet her did fuel confident that if the motion failed it woula not fail becau,e 'here was anything in the re quest he was about to make that was unconstitutienal, o r at variance with Perhamentary usage, or the practise of that House; but if the motion tailed, he felt that it w. uld tail in conseqiieuce of the inability wiocti any individual—an independent Member of that House— must have iu coping anti that Ministerial influence which he knew had be, n and efts to be brought to bear against his mod ii; and one of the Oitfieulties with which he should have to contend arose out of the agree ment and understanding, if not absolute compact, which they had entered into with the members of the Church of England and certain members of the Dissenting commatthy--compacts and understandings which he mould say were most disgraceful to those who had made them —calling themselves "her Ma jesty's Liberal Ministry"—in the face of their former opinions and their avowed principles. His consolation, at all events, would be, if he should tail that he believed that he had the support and good wishes on this occasion of a great portion of his country men. If they asked him what made him thick so, he should reply that since ho gave notice of his motion the other day, he had received communications from all parts of the country asking him to persevere iu his :motion, and saying that the House would neglect its duty and betray its trust if it did not grant a Committee of inquiry; or give, at all events, some information beyond that which the Noble Lord had given before it voted away any portion of the public money. Many of them were connected as well with the church as with the dissenters, and they stated further, that if he had placed his motion earlier on the paper, they would have been better enabled to have supported him by meetings and petitions ; but if he bad done so there would have been but one discussion, whereas now the whole question would be fully debated. Notwithstand ing the views of the Noble Lord, he was still of opinion that the scheme would prove dangerous both to civil and religious liberty ; that it was a scheme to increase the power of the Church ; that it exceeded the functions of Parliament ; and that it would prove an injustice to that portion of the community who would be compelled to contribute to its maintenance, but who would derive no benefit whatever from its establishment ; and besides, it would not attain the object it sought to accomplish, as it would carry jealousy and dissension into every locality in this country if it should be carried. The Noble Lord had talked about intimidation having been used to prevent the Members of that House from doing their duty ; but he should like to k n o w what means had been adopted on the other side to get up demonstrations in favour of the Government measure ? In 1839 the Government postponed a national scheme of education because they found they could not reconcile the differences which prevailed on the subject; but after the petitions which had 'oeen presented that night against the present scheme, he asked whether there was any- 1 thing like concurrence or approbation in favour of it ? The Noble L rd might feel himself very strong in having bought off the Wesleyans, and obtained the sup port of the Church of England. He denied, however, that the whole body of the Church of England intended to support the Government, as a petition which he had presented from the diocese of York stated that the peti tioners were but beginning to understand the plan, and saying that they were at a loss to know what portion of the clergy were in favour of it, as they were entirely at a loss to know. These were not idle apprehensions, as the Noble Lord had called them, but the apprehen sions of members of the Established Church. He agreed entirely in the prayer of that petition. The House had witnessed what had been presented—that an immense majority were against it, and that but a small number were in favour of it, and that they were sented by the Noble Lord ; and it we- , -• s - House should know how 0- ..gnt that the ...ey were obtained. They n d . ps at r.whenaistparishes ens s i nn s v t i ( e s) du countryr tl o i ef this N 4 ee L at s o u r . rde after. h e aT c l l o h te u hr l could pgc werel, tlatcuierpecldh2de.7odi demonstrations - 01 - 1 - v eincipally from Members of the Establish e d endeavours of Lord Ashley, making arrangements first with the Wesleyans, and next with the Church of Eng land, he hal not been able to accomplish much in favo u r of the Government plan. He held aprospectus in his hand of a society established to advocate the Government plan, the Chairman of which was Lord Ashley ; and then be had a copy of a circular which had been sent round to 111 likely to lend themselves to getting up.demonstra tions in favour of it. It was dated April 6, 1847, and after commencing Reverend ' 1 .3 11 *, w9nt on to state that, as absorb its attention to the exclusion of religious instruc tion. I do not think that this would be found to operate well, anti I likewise do not believe ►hat from the mann r in which the time of the children of the labourng poor is occupied, you could impart to them in this way a sufficient amount of religious instruction. In addition to this, I think it is a scheme which would not be accept able to the people themselves,—(flear, hear)—and I am of opinion they would be likely to confound such a scheme with irreligion.—(Hear, hear.) They would he wrong, I admit, in that int-rpretation of it; but still, no explanitien or evidence which might be given them to the corvrary would be so strong as to overpower and put an end to that feeling. The question, therefore, I have to ask the House is whether, considering the various &fficulties with which this question is surrounded, it is prepared to go with us in giving a grant of money to be disposed of according to the Minutes of the Privy Council, or whether it will go with the Honourable Gentleman the Member for Finsbury and propose against us a vote of censure.—(Hear, hear.) But. Sir, before I sit down I wish to direct the attention of the House to one or two other points, which I think deserve some notice ; and, in the first place, with re gard to the claims of the Roman Catholics. Now, Sir, with respect to that subject I have to say that, in the minutes of August and December, 1846, it never arose. There were certain rules laid down in conformity with the original intentions of the Privy Council, and to these only was their attention directed. By these minutes it was settled that no school should receive a grant for education unless the Scriptures were lead daily in it. If, however, the Catholics had a desire to establish schools, and, for my own part, I should be glad of such an intention, I think the greatest caution is requisite in drawing up minutes by which grants to such schools should be authorised. I do not think it would do to have monastic schools, or schools where Protestant children would not have en opportunity of readiug the Bible. That schools should not be established open to this objection, I am not prepared to say, but I see no reason why that difficulty should be raised now. Although half a million of money has been expended in education under the superintendence of the Privy Coun cil, not a shilling had gone to a Roman Catholic school. I therefore see no reason why such an objection should be raised now, unless for the purpose of throwing a stumbling-block in our way.—(Hear, hear.) Such being the character of our proposal, and the diffi culties being so great with regard to any other plan, I ask the House if there is any reason fur instituting an inquiry as to " whether the regulations attached thereto do not unduly increase the influence of the Crown, in vade the constitutional functions of Parliament, and interfere with the religious convietions and the civil rights of her Majesty's subjects." I have already, I think, sufficiently touched on the constitutional points of the subject, and shown that this plan will not in terfere with the constitutional rights or religious feel ings of her Majesty's subjects ; and as regards the influence of the Crown, I thought that this influence was rather diminished than increased by the plan pro posed. As regards the stipendiary monitors and masters of schools, the grants will be made on the reports of in- spectors appointed by different administrations, and no schoolmaster, after seven or eight years, when he has attained his majority, will feel himself bound tO give nts vote in favour of the views of any minister because he had previously received portions of the grant at the re commendation of the inspectors. With regard to the , other marks of esteem to the monitors whn may not be appointed schoolmasters, such as emplo , . in them in dif ferent branches of the public service, this this is a suggestion which was made in this Hous c e. olon b i !ieve,by the present Secretary of State for the Honourable Baronet opposite .was when the Right I; : l so offi t c . e, and . when Lord Grey was in opposition s , not brought forward with an intention of l o t t . w i a n s . crossing the Weems of the Crown,—(lesr.) it had been already asserted, that there should be an ex pression of opinion on the part of those favourable to the measure, the signer of the circular wished the parson to whom it was addressed to get signatures without delay to a petition in favour of the scheme ; so that every parson in a village was to become © petition agent for the Government—it went on, "to a petition , one which is sent"—sent all cut and dried from the Privy Council no doubt—(Laughter)—" the petition must be written on parchment, and o ne or more names must be written on the body of it."—(Continued laughter.) If this was not done, no doubt his Honourable Friend who was on the printing Committee, would not allow it to be printed. It went on, "As they must be sent in before the 17th, no time is to be lost ; and they may be either sent to me pre-paid — (Laughter)—(that was a most material point in the mat ter, they were all pre-paid at the parcel office), or to the Right Hon. Lord J. Russell, M.P.—(Roars of laughter) —l3, Chesham-place, who has kindly promised to take charge of them.—(Continued laughter.) (Signed) H Hughes, Gordon-square, Incumbent of All Saints." Ile (Mr. buncombe) imagined that he would not be long allowed to remain an incumbent, and that he would be promoted to a bishopric.—(Hear, hear.) Then came the postscript, which, as in all letters, was the most important part of the document. " I have authority to state, that the authorised Scriptures must be read daily in all the schools receiving aid from the State."—(clear.) the Noble Lord had told them of the destitute condi tion of the different classes of the community as far as regarded educatiou. Wby then had he not taken any notice of the Roman Catholic whom be was about to exclude. He held in his hand a statement taken from the " Catholic Directory of 1846," where it was stated, that there were in the different districts of London, 65,307 Roman Catholics, poor persons requiring gratui tous education ; and that out of these there are only 30,207 who receive it. He should like to know why these other 30,207 unfortunates had not attracted the Noble Lord's attention; but was this the only exclusion? was this the only compromise which bad taken place? What did the House think of the Wesleyan compromise, also made at the expense of the Roman Catholics? He would read an accurate statement of what had occurred —stated in a letter to him from a private gentleman, "I need hardly say, although a Protestant, that I feel the conduct of the Government towards the Roman Catholics to be peculiarly base.—(Hear.) The dissenters, as well as churchmen, owe you a debt of gratitude for the notice which you have given them." The following was a history of the Wesleyan compromise :—About fortnight since, the Secretary of the Wesleyan Society called a meeting for the purpose of forming certain resolutions, which had been agreed upon at a previous meeting. Before they entered upon business, they were informed that Lord Ashley was in waiting—he was admitted, and stated himself to be commissioned by the Government to negotiate with them, in order to buy off their oppo sition to the Government. ,plan.—(Hear. hear.) Lord Ashley stated that the Romans-Catholic Schools would be excepted from the benefits to be conferred by this Bill ; an object which would be very grateful to the Wesleyans. The meeting came to no conclusion, and it was adjourned to Manchester, to take the opinion of some of' its members engaged in the manufacturing districts. The Wesleyans met on the 9th of April, and again on the 14th instant. The state ment that the Bill had for its express purpos e s the ex clusion of the Roman Catholics had its desired object. The claims of the Catholics were to be consi dere 1 in an ether minute, and the Wesleyans were not to be prejudiced from offering it any opposition they might think fit. It was also agreed . that no person iu holy orders should be admitted a master of a school, a provision made for the express purpose of defeating a proposition of the Bishop of Exeter.—(Neer, hear.) Mr. MACAULAY.—This is all a romance. Mr. DUNCOMBE.—WiII the i.i,ight Hon. Gentleman say that Catholics are not to be excluded? If he does, I will admit the romance. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded : He had received a letter from Leeds con taining the resolutions which had been adopted at a meeting there of the Roman Catholics. Those resolu tions he trusted would find an echo in the breast of every member in that House. " The Committee has read with astonishment the reply of Lord John Russell re specting the additional grant for the purposes of education." " The Government, in order to ap pease sectarian intolerance and clamour, were pre pared' to deprive them of the united benefit of a fund toe which they equally contributed." And that they could not but look with contempt and resent ment upon a Ministry who were about to create a new Bill of disabilities on their Roman Catholic subjects. Now there was no romance in all this, it was unfortu nately a reality.—(Hear, hear.) But he would ask the Right Hen. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, who said that this was a romance, when he was opposing Lord Stanley's motion for the revocation of these minutes, whether he understood that they were exclu sive to Roman Catholics? He would ask the same ques tion of his Noble Friend the Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire? If he did, his speech was most belied, and most misreported. Lord Stanley stated that the Scriptures were to be read daily as a part of the national system. He said that it had been objected to:the former scheme that it was impracticable to unite so many different per suns of different religious opinions. Lord Morpeth asked, was it right or proper to exclude their dissenting brethren ? "He had no high opinion of many Roman Catholic doctrines—of the Unitarians he had his own opinions—but as long as they employed Roman Catholics, and as long as they fingered Unitarian gold, they could not refuse to share their privileges, or exclude them from benefits to which they equally contributed. Now he (Mr. buncombe) could not conceive that there could be anything so clear as what were the intentions of her Majesty's Ministers, and he could not help thinking that this was base trickery to buy off the opposition of some to this new measure. These sentiments of the Noble Lord were applauded by Lord John Russell, Mr. O'Connell, Mr. Hawes, and others.—(Bear, hear.) He hoped and trusted that there would be found a sufficient spirit in that House not to vote away any of the public money unless the public were equally b e nefited.—(Hear.) Lord Morpeth in a subsequent speech said that "he would be ashamed if he did not think that every man in the country—b e he Churchman or Dissenter —was equally entitled to the support of the Government. He found the Church making the first great claim upon the property of the country; but the , Church itself oug h t to be great l y obliged to Dissenters, for th e example which t h ey h a d set her.— ( _llieers.) That was the Noble Lord ' s op i n ion in 1842. lie should lik e t o know would the h ave attempted this exclusivisin h a d Mr. O'Connell been in that Ho use ? He believed net. li e would nut believe that t h e Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dung arvon would go out On the same lobby w i th the Noble Lord, he woul d not be lieve that h e wou l d be a party to create a n ew Bill t,t pains and di sa b i li t i es, and throw a stigma on his religion. The Noble L or d h ad said nothing about the prob ible cost of th e sc h eme, He would ask any man—an) gentleman in that house if he could say wi thin half a million of m oney what would be the cost o f this scheme ten years hen ce . Mr. MACAULAY.—One penny per head. Mr. DUNCOMBE,—They- o nly called fur 100,0001 this year. but they were laying the foundation of a scheme which according to the calculations which others had made, and which they had not proved to be wrong, would cost in two years hence nearly two millions. flow was that money to be got to s upport the expenses of the alterations which were to made under these minutes which had been laid on the table of both Houses of Parliament. Isle objected to the unconstitu tional character of this Committee of the Privy Council, and he did not think that there was anything in the manner in which th ese m i nutes h a d b e en laid on the table to entitle the C omm i ttee o f P r i v y Council to the confidence of the cou n t ry .—(H ear , hear.)—When the m inutes were laid upon the ta bl e o f the House by Lord Lansdowne, nothi ng was sa id as to their nature and character. It w as ar gued in the Privy Council, and then laid on the table of both Houses without any prefatory remarks, for they did not appear likely to lead to any confusion to require the sanction of the House of Lords. It did not require that in order to give effect to any Bill that the consent of the House of Commons should be given. In the view of the Privy Council, the President of the Privy Council had only to take the minutes to the Lords and Commons, and there let them digest them if they could. It was a great condescension on the part of the president to say anything at all about them. Let the people . pay their money and be grateful. Such was the opinion of this secret tribunal. If they looked at the minutes them selves, they would find that they were objectionable, not only on the ground of cost, but also as a general scheme. He had said that it would not accomplish that which it professed to attain. It would create undue influence, increase the power of the Crown, and the patronage of the Government. It appears that these minutes were thought of and framed on the 20th of August last, when some general minutes were agreed upon, and the President of the Council re tired for four months until he could prepare a farther set of minutes for the regulation of education, pupil teachers, and stipendiary monitors. He must say that, looking at the minutes altogether, independently of their unconsti tutional character —for he thought that never was such a piece of quackery put together as the whole of these minutes. Talk of Professor Ady and Morison's pi 11.% give him Dr. Kay Shuttleworth's resolutions. —(Laughter.) This measure was absurd to all practical workingmen, and more particularly in that portion which referred to the workshops and industrial schools—it was the laughing stock of the country. There were pupil teachers, ap prenticed pupil teachers, who had a five year's appren ticeship to undergo. The Privy c ounc ,, it ought certainly to be called inquisitors in this in stance, for the education of the children would be assigned to inspectors The girls were not required appointedt by th e P r i vy Coun ttohebbeoev'esrasendel ginirlst,heeeee t course the g g e i . girls cil. There was not much diffeience in th ep geography of examtheina tion requiredt be m t w p i e r e e n . o proceed beyond " Compound Proportion " in figures. Now such a thing was really preposterous—those who were to be their future kitchen-maids ,and house-maids, are to be crammed by the compound proportion of the parochial clergyman (Hear, hear, and laughter.) In the third sear the examination differed but little from that to the first ; al - el, in the fouth year , they required 1 music and drawing specially a knowledge of 'iv" absolutely 'because This was not from models. the means of teaching it might not exist in every school. The Right lion. Gentleman would say that it was easy to have models for every school, according to the pre- Poses Pla,t strong i - tr:s ."—(Latighter.) The work sent " sense of the injury which they would inflict ing men had a uon themselves by supporting P this measure.-010:13.' hear.) ) It would have the e rural districts entirely from effect of excluding th roe for they required, before a the benefits of the se he me, „ s raaae, that twice the sum should , grant of any sum wa t h at AIMS, sofora grant of 20/., be raised by contrite% 401. would he thus ' sea besides a house rent free,. which would wake 6 . DI some places net 151. or ; 01, p could be raised for the education of children, so that in Adam Smith, and he took Adam Smith's authority the I and he had no doubt that the Hon. Member for Mon.. ----- ee., many of the rural districts there would be no benefit more readil y because it was well known that be trose would p erfectly coincide in the opinion he was given, and the district wou'd be con3polled to ply its was no advocate for increasing the power of about to quote. After laying down in the strongest share of the maintenance of other schools. The proposal Governments. Now, Adam Smith said there was a manner the general principles of interience on the part with regard to the industrial schools must necessarily be difference, and particularly in highly civilised commer- of the Government, Mr. Hume went on to say that, "as an injury to the honest artisan. The produce of these cial countries between the education of the higher and there are certain callings highly useful and necessary to schools must be sold in the same market as the produce the poorer classes of society. The education of the the state, but yet which do not give that degree of ad- • of the skilled artisan, and at a lower price, as coming poor, Adam Smith pronounced to be a matter in which vantage to any individual adequate as remuneration for from an establishment of which the Government bore the Governments were most deeply concerned ; and he his services, the State most, by means of bribes, by means expense, so that the trades, already down to compared the ignorance which prevailed amongst the of distinctions, or by money secure him." If there was a the level of merely a subsistence, would be lower classes of society to a le p ros y , or some other calling in the wide world to which this descri p tion ap still more seriously injured. How was a man dreadful disease, which it was the duty of the Govern- plied that calling was that of the schoolmaster, whose having to pay rent and taxes, and find his own ment to check. If he searched all history he could not business was to teach the poor. This calling was useful. tools, to compete with those who were supported by the select a stronger proof of this than what occurred in That his calling was necessary for the people no person Government? Besides, it was known to be impossible to this country in 1780. There they witnessed the effect cauld dispute ; as little could it be, that he cannot and teach any of these trades thoroughly without a regular of ignorance upon the population. One hundred thou- does not obtain adequate remuneration without the in apprenticeship far different from that which these per- sand people, at the rumours of a mad man, ruse terference of the Government. Here, then. was an ob sons would receive in the Government establishments- to overturn the empire, and to make the predt cessors vious reasonable i ule laid down by Mr. Hume, and this The working classes had already seen the mischievous of the Speaker tremble in his chair—to pull the ' was a cas e i n w hich the Government was clearly ca ll e d effects of the measure; they had rejected all the attempts House of Lords off their cushions, and make Bishops upon to interfere. There was no reason, i piore to of the Government to cajole or bribe them by specious fly over the tiles. — (Hear and laughter.) That was a prove that the application of the principles ' r ot nonlin.- th a good promises of provision for their children. At a meeting state of things, however laughable it might seem, ::1 oat t s, ,ai supply u t pLl they system hi which h ri prin at Birmingham, lately, it was rejected by a majority of it would not be satisfactory to witness again. At the ciple of popular education. But let the 11-11aodu existedse look a i n t; 152, showing the determination of the working classes time to which he alluded, six and thirty tires u I d f :, - F 4) in t e i t i i i rn - i l e i t i e l i n Z e e i n ) Ce r i ft :' the I t p l u h it, v is a t i: d ui , t i p ..l ) ::;, , ct i : e lp s ii per hol l e 3 e c t i e l d oi n - ef to permit the interference of the Privy Council. But blazing in different parts of the metropolis, the house 1 ; 1 1 'e: 3 .e 6 1 they never would submit that they should not combine of the Chief Justice was destroyeJ, and the Prime for the purpose of protecting themselves. The working Minister's children were carried from the nursery and, ing education Int . the p ‘‘ o c o r r e . th l e a pv t i l i i i e e t i l p , men were not so ignorant as they had been represented, laid on the tables in the Horse Guards. Nettling could free competition really and knowing from experience how their funds had have been more dreadful than these act, resulting from education °tithe pe o p le mi g ht successfull y be conducted; hitherto been exhausted in strikes and contests, they had the ignoran c e of t h e popu l at ion . T o the same ca use if the principle would be to oluestion what it was to a resolved to act in a different manner in future. They th e y mu s t a t t ribute the riots of Bristol, the d;sturbauces s y stem of trade, they would have seen the result of that had now a vedette' combination of trades, and instead of of Nottingham, and all the ruthlessness of Capt. G o ring, principle as they had seen it developed in f!eliseqelle° of ti expending their funds in a foolish an d use l ess manner , an d th e horrors of the incendiary fires of the ugricul- the removal of the restrictions on trade.—([hear, hear.) they now expended them in furnishing the raw mat e rial tural districts, and all these dreadful and degrading acts The principle of competition in mutters of education of their re:pective trades, and in reproductive labour, in which mere than anything else tended to reduce man to cou!tl not, however, have been the one adopted to the order to elevate the condition of their order. This was the level of the animal. Could it be pessible that such end, v:z., general education among the people. It was a a new principle of action and biddy creditable to the things as these could have taken place in a community principle which had been tried with perfect liberty in the working classes. It was only last week that at Notti ng - w h ere th e l a b oure r had had his mind improved by edu- richest country under heaven, and in a country the h a m where the frame-workers who were Members of cation—bad been taught to find pleasure in the e xercise people of which are considered as intelligent Persons , the national union, had succeded in preventing 80 a bate- o f hi s int e ll ec t—had been taught to reverence his maker and cannot be fairly accused of being illiberal. If, then ments in the prices paid, on account of their belonging to re g ard the value of life, or to respect the constituted there ever was a country in which tlinprinciple of none to the association. The working classes of that town and laweurauthorities of the country. This appeared to interference could have worked with effect, and shown its were now getting their own frames and carrying him to afford an irresistable argument upon the power, it would have been in this country. The state of on work on their own account. Referring to subject. It was clearly the duty of Government to things would have been this—the schools of the country the pamphlet of Dr. Shuttleworth ; be could not see protect the lives and property of the community, would have been models, perfect institutions, to be found why the Government should have sanctioned the gross and as ignorance tended the render both of life in every part of the country ; every school would have libel which he found contained in page 20 of the and property unsafe, he was at a loss to conceive how been an example, it would have contained an excellent " Minutes of Education." He stated there that the it could be denied that education belonged to the pro- little library and mechanical apparatus, the very fact of object of the Dissenters in their opposition was to vince of Government.—(Hear, hear.) It was admitted such a thing as grown-up persons, who were unable to advance the interests of particular sects. Now, what he that Government by some means ought to protect the read or to write their name, would have been unheard (Mr. Duncombe) wanted to know was, what objections lives and property of the community. Now, if they of. And with respect to the schoolmasters, they would could there be to the motion of which he had given took away education what means were there left. Absoe have been men as expert in the business of imparting notice ? It had been said by the Noble Lord at the lutely none which could be resorted to except in cases of knowledge, and in the management of the minds of head of the Government, that it was a vote of censure, extreme necessity. Take away education, and all that young people, as their cutlers were in making knives, though he (Mr. Duncombe) did not consider it as such ; was left to them was military force, gaols, penal settle- and as their engineers were in repairing machinery ; but if the Noble Lord would have it so, let it be taken as ments, gibbets, and tortures. Now if the protection of they would have been amply remunerated and their lot such, as it involved a principle which he considered a life and property were the end to which Government in life would have been respectable, and they would have just one. He for one could not consent to the patronage was bound to look, the only wise and effectual means been treated with all that respect which the instructors which was to be conferred on a self-elected body ; and to attain it was, to elevate the moral and intellectual of the morals and intelligence of the people should [al the increased power which it gave to the Crown. Already character of the people. If Government had the power ways receive. Did they show that they possessed any the patronage of the Government had been too of inflicting punishment en the poor, who could doubt of those things at the present time ? Look at all those much increased. Let them look to the in- that it was the duty of Government to provide educa- authoritative sources of information, thechargesofjudges creased patronage given them b y the railway ' don for them ? It seemed to him that no p ro p osition the resolutions of grand juries, and the reports of public board. The local Small Debt Courts had also could be more plain. The truth was manifest when they departments which have anything to do with ascertaining increased their patronage very much. The judges reflected that had it been acted upon, probably more the state of education among the people. Their effect is which were created, and were to be created, under that than one-half o f th e p o p u l a ti on w ho had been execu'ed the s. me as those facts already stated by my Noble Act, would cause a vast a ccession to their p atronage. for crime mi g ht still have been alive—more than one- Friend. Take the report of the register of the prisons. It was thus increased to an enormous extent. The new half of the in m ates of the gaols might have been at In Hertford Gaol and House of Correction there were Board of Health proposed under the Bill just introduced liberty, and more than one-half of the inhabitants of 700 prisoners, one half of those were unable to read or would give the Ministry more patronage ; and there the penal settlements might have been honourably em- to write. In Maidstone gaol there were 3,000 prisoners, were also to be four new Bishops, without seats, ap- ployed on their native soil.—(Cheers.) Looking at the 1.300 of whom were unable to read or to write, and not pointed. These Bishops were to be without seats, but first report Presented to the Committee of Education, more than 50 ale to read or to write well. In Cold they were to occupy the vacancies as they occurred. In just after a p e ri o d o f in surr e c ti on , it appeared that in b tth-fieltla there were 8,000 prisoners, but only seven addition to this, there was now proposed these pensions the district wh e re th e i nsurrec ti on h a d t a k e n place there who could read or write well. Look again at the register to schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, which would were about 11,000 children of the age at which children of marriages, of 130.000 couples married in the year greatly add to the power of the Government. The pa- were generally educated, but of these ab eat 8,000 were 1844, more than 40,000 bridegrooms and 60,000 brides tronage thus given them would be enormous. It was attending no school at all, while the other 3,000 attended could not sign their names, but put their marks to the too great a power to give to any Government, as they schools; these were defective in their system of educa- register.—(Laughter.) Even the education that was could not tell within half a million of raoney what the tion—filtby to the last degree, and conducted by masters received in some of the schools was of a most extent of this grant would be, within the next who stood in the position of ruined tradesmen. In such inferior description. Many of the schools are mere twenty years. The Noble Lord had said a great districts as these where the population were suffered to dens—a heap of fuel on one side, half a testament, a deal about the unreasonableness of the opposition grow up in this state readily listened to the advice of dog's-eared spelling-book, a broken slate, and a pen. but if he thought so why not refer the whole subject to bad men, who were anxious to excite them to rise And then the master—(Laughter)—and then the master a Select Committee? Why not refer it for investiga- against the constituted authorities. Here was the —where was the high principle, the high spirited, the tion to a fair, and enlightened, and impartial Committee? manner in which various insurrections were brought heroic devotedness on his part to the improvement of the If the Government would not consent to this, it was a about, and what were the means resorted to to put it pupils committed to his care, many of the men were proof that there was something in the scheme which down. Having neglected to attend to one means they merely discarded serving men, ruined tradesmen, many would not bear the light of day, and that the rea l ob- had onl y one other to adopt, and that was resorting to of them who could not work a rule of three sum, who did ject was to increase the power and influence of the military force. Had the people been educated they not know whether the earth were a cube or a sphere, Crown. The result of this scheme, in his opinion, never would have listened to the advice of designing whether Jesusalern was in Asia or America. Those would b e , that instead of a free and an enlightened men, and there would have been no necessity for were the men who could do nothing else, that were ap people they would have an enslaved and corrupted na. the shedding of blood. lie said, therefore, that educa- pointed to train the hearts of the rising generation— tion.—(Hear, hear.) He would now conclude by mowtion was not only part of the functions of Government, ( Hear, hear)—and upon whom the whole virtue, prose ing the amendment of which he had given notice. but it was the best end to which G overnment ou g ht to perity, and freedom of the country depended.—(Cheers.) Lord DUNCAN seconded the motion. He had listened aim for the protection of the lives and property of the If the House thought he was taking too harsh a view of with great attention to the speech of the First Minister of community. When he saw the efforts that were being the present sta of education he would appeal to an the Crown, and he confessed he had been m uch disa p - made in the country against this scheme, and remem- authority which he thou e ht no person could deny—he pointed with the speech. He had expected that the bored that all the great Legislators and moral philoso- would refer tact the report of the congregational union Noble Lord would have made some explanat ion of the ne- p hers of all ages, and the eminent men who were representing the non-conformists of England. Last year, cessity which there existed of keeping up the Council of g enerall y disposed to restrict the functions of Govern- not quite a year ago, upon the 16th of May, 1846, the education which had caused such heart-burniegs in the ment, were in favour of such a plan—when he remem- report of the committee of the congregational union for country. He had expected also that the Noble Lord bored that the opinion of all the greatest champions of general education was presented to the union. It was would have seen the necessity of including the Catholics civil and religious liberty, and of none more so than of moved " that the report now read be adopted, and as well as the Protestants in the grant; but he had been those whose memory were held in the greatest reverence printed and circulated under the direction of the disappointed. The Noble Lord had made great reference by the Non-conformists of England, was in favour of board." That motion was made by Edward Baines, jun. , to what had been done since 1839 ; wh ereas, in his (Lord Government education—he really was surprised to see of Leeds. What he would now react would he thought Duncan's) opinion, that from 1834 to 1839, education the movement that was now going on throughout the be considered as an opinion nut to be disputed. "If it had been in a more flourishing condition than it had country. lie was the more surprised when he remem- were necessary to expose facts to such an assembly as been in any former period. He wished to call attention bared Government education was supported by those this, with respect to the interest of so large a portion of to the constitution of the Committee of 1839, because he staunch non-conformists who, in time of Bishop the population of our towns and rural districts, we could found that the name of the then Master of the Mint Laud, for the sake of religious principle, refer them to the exhibitions in the carious localities (Mr. Labouchere) was now awanting, and further he left their native country for the new world of Massa- by the published docutnents of the Registrar-General's saw that, whereas the commission of that y ear consisted chusetts, and when they established that State took the re p orts. Those reports would furnish us with enough of thirty-nine persons, the commission of this year con- charge of education. In 1642 they passed their first to make us modest in speaking of what has been done for sisted only of six persons, and these were all Members Act upon that subject, and the preamble recited that the humbler classes, and make us ashamed of England. of the Government. He found that in the year 1841, Lord it was a matter of the deepest interest to the State that that the sons of the soil of England should have ken so Nionteagle, who had no connexion with the Government, the poorer class of the community should be educated lung uegleetel, anti should present to enlightened but was only a Privy Councillor—he found him sitting under the direction of the Salt-. Ile had peculiar 1 fateigners teas oiling from other chore:; such a sad spec on the commission of IS4I. Now, if Lord Monteagle, pleasure in referring to such an authority as this, be- ; Salle of le-glee:et! inmate! degradation." He. like Mr. being unconnected with the Government, and bat a cause those who followed their religious principles it; ' Dames, most cordially adopted that report. It was in Privy Councillor—if he found Lord Monteagle a Mem- the present day were the advocates of the , voluntary rfect titzeenient with it the information he bad been her of that Committee, he should like to know whether system, and, in support of that se stem, they insariably able to obtain upon the subject. He believed that the any reason existed why the Archbishop of Canterbury, pointed to America, saying, see what the voluntary stito of education alnyng the common people of this or the Duke of Norfolk, or Mr. Fox Maule, or such system has done there ! Why the practice of America country `. ought to make us ashamed at the sad spectacle sort of persons—(Cheers, ironical cheers, laughter, and in this subject was just the reverse. A national sy,teiu preeented to the enlightened foreigners who v i sited our the most absolute abandon for a few seconds) —he onl y of education was the last legacy that Wa,hington It ft to shere&"—(llear. hear, and cheers.) And now, under meant to say, that all, or any individuals might be the republic of the United States, while Jefferson was what system had this state of things come to introduced under this principle, on this Committee.— ever an advocate o f a system of education conducted by pass ? Und-r a sy seen of non-interference —of (Continued laughter.) Let the House look at the in- the State. He quoted the authority of Jefferson with free competition—ft system which they were told specters made by this Bill. They had 16 inspectors, peculiar pleasure, because of all the eminent public teen was just as powerful a stimulus in education as in mat who were paid 13,60(1., being thirteen and a-half that had ever existed in the world he was obe of the ter;, of trade or commerce. How long had it been in of the whole outlay.—(Hear.) Now, he thought that greatest who had ever resist . sci any increase in the this state? This morning be received a paper said to where this enormous expense was incurred in a mea- functions of Government. Against these authorities only contain e reasons for opposieg the educational plan," sure fur the benefit of one section of a class, that the one'eminentlaatecieould be placed, and the clamour of 1846 and one of the reasons was if you wait with patience, [louse ought to look with jealousy at the whole Bill. against a Government system of education was raised private enterprise will do it all. They had been waiting Looking at the principle involved in the measure, he by those who opposed the wisdom of their former selves. with patience ever states the time of the Heptarchy. thought that it was opposed in almost every particular It seemed to be the opinion of them who rait•ed the How long were they still to wait? Till the year 2847 to the rule which had guided Government in 1834. But clamour that the proper functions of Government was or . 38.17? Was there ever an experiment tried during Who was the originator of this m easure ? Let them not always to wait till necessity called for the exercise . of such a length of time with so little effect, and yet these be told at one time that it t he P e Prime Minister, and military force, and th . e had nothine to do with resorting men called upon them to go on waiting still loner at another time that it was the President of the Council. to means for improv i in y g the intelle ' ctual and moral che- The experiment had been tried under the most favo g ure. fie trusted that this suhjiict would be reconsideted. He racer of the The duty of the statesman was able circumstances. They were asked to wait a short did not desire to see himself place , ' in opp isition to the simply to see grhpeeart)i)t.oew. town grow up and provide gaols and time, and all would be right. He defied them, however, Government, but he trusted that the number of petitions barracks for t e correction of the Peo le instead of to point out a single c Ise in which tree competition had presented would have their off et, and that they would schools for improvement .of their milers, and when been productive Of beneficial results. And as the south not be thrown over to the ne-rciea of the Privy Council. moments of danger arrived !hey will be wanted of Britain formed an argument, Si) did also the northern Knowing, as he did that the Right Hon. Bart., the Mem - to he at libert te send down soldiers to mow them down, part form another. Now here were two nations of the tier for Tamworth, had opposed a grant of this kind in but he must o y n no account attempt to cultivate or teach same orizin, of the same bloed, speaking, with a slight 1839, on a highly constitutional ground, he should con- the intellect of the peo. culturalpme might be said of diversity - , the same language, separated, at the same aude by quoting a portion of the speech delivered by the populations agri dis b tri f cts. He meant the time from the see of Home in the same generation, and him on that occasion. The Noble Lord quoted a per- incendiary's torch was at work e ore t e statesman by the same great . reformatory movement, united under a as oe;nes ripointed ni ne 2 don of the speech of Sir Robert Peel, in 1839, and sat could interfere, and he must abstain from all attempts to one sovereign, going through the same sources of politi remove the ignorance which might prevail on machinery cal revolutions, united together through a long series of down by seconding the motion. Sir ROBER r INGLIS said that it would be in vain, and subjects of that nature. It was difficult to under-. ages, and yet there now existed great differences be at that moment, to try to create a different organization stand in intent way men of undoubted ability and of tween them. England had been for many ages one of in the machinery for giving education to the country. excellent ions should have become attached to so the richest, most prosperous and civilised nations in the He retained this conviction as strongly as ever, that it was strange a theory. The explanation which occurred to world ; its all these matters Scotland had been almost at to the Church of England, and Church alone,that the State him was, that he believed a considerable portiere of the bottom of nations calling themselves civilised. They s hould delegate this duty ; and however defective he this theory arose from the Operation of a law of which (the House) knew that one hundred and fifty or two might think this scheme of the Government he would they might trace the operation in many similar ways, hundred years ago Scotland and Se,otchinen were words receive it thankfully, if he could not receive it cheer- viz., the law of reaction. The country was treated with contempt ; they were considered as words fully. It was his own deliberate conviction, that they was just fresh for a great contest with the Government belonging to a people very far beneath other nations in would not have received so good a measure from any u pon the subject of interference in matters of trade, civilisation ; and even the greatest of Scottish patriots other section or party in that House.—(" Hear, hear," men's minds were naturally much excited by the pro- seemed all but to despair of ever raising the mental and from Mr. Duncombe.) lie (Sir It, H. Inglis) had stated cess. Much was said of the advantages of non-inter- moral condition of the lower classes of th h at i coun r try ie deliberately his opinion, without any intention of injuring ferenemei n the advantages of free competition; and some So general was the feeling that they were ac , ova di t her Majesty's Government in the eyes of those who had men oTat ability and excellent intentions seemed in- civilisation, in the 17th c ff ent e n d ry f l o letc her, _of Saltoun, it a brave and given them so general and so ready a support.—(lronical alined, as soon as they had driven the Government from man who fought and . s e u d er vf his : liberty ountr 's independencee cheers.) It was asserted that the education given to the a promise which clearly did not belong to them, to drive able man—evherit i e e d r i i population of this country had been generally furnished them from a promise which appeared to be clearly a was so . overw ri it na by the Dissenters. He denied this. Until within the part of the legislative domain. When he looked into educatton e , n a d t h p r n e n v c a o l n e n t e c m e p 0 1 a t t m in i o• se y r th y e last century, they had no Dissenters at all—(Hear)— the works whiele had been wrttten upon the subject, ns ta t h t e o p a r o s) p . o s t s e e l d o t o h f e i i u m : r i t o n v t e i m o n e a n ml o o t f w : n p gs e l ta rs s n t t o e : 1:1 , o sr l a t least no Dissenters who assumed to themselves the saw the principles of non-interference clearly laid dos! h e i e . s e 17a u v n e t l . r i r f i t i no submit co t ud as the only means of compelling th e constitution of an independent church. An Hon. Gen- People were told to remember the power of the pe tleman spoke of the Lancastrian system, but the Hon. ciples of fair competition, and this argrent se Gentleman ought to remember that the Church imme- pervade the whole of their tho s ught , t i p n l e o o s n p a t h it o s u f r n o m wa t s he p d u n s a h t ed w . hi t c h h e diately introduced an equal if not a better system, &pat speakers seemed to imagine h writers h tif sfraeemeoimepwatlion was passed the great Act of 1696, fotPhraatthripejaasmnietpcillitlnegt°fooff Scotland o lcah o n l e s dr . of Dr. Bell, which was universally allowed to an o l d useful in matters of trade an t d comm d erce . , p t could be no e S i e e e m t e h n e e c y h o a t eg th e e th ai a r t , u h r as th b :s e t n er e i fi l e it c y te o d iit l s n so s i p l i , t t e h o e f S t c h o e tc i h n: Hod method of education. The 'lon. Member !could less excellent when applied to the education o epe find that all the grammar schools in England had been ple. They seemed to . think, that because it was good man has no reteion to envy any other part of the world. founded by gentlemen belonaingsto the Church of Eng- w h e n a pplied to corn, it must be sound also when tap- Wherever he went, and there were few places he did land, and only within the last seal years was a school plied to the school. No analogy could, however, be more not go to—(Laughter)---the same undeviating career of founded by Dissenters. Still he could not iOtt think, that false, Consider for a moment what it was which made success was sure to await him. If he enlisted he soon the framers of this measure would find themselves &Ivan- the principle of freedom of trade so excellent. In trade became a non-commissioned officer, and no matter what taged by going to a constitutional school—(Laughter)— 1 there could be no doubt but that the producer or dis- pursuit he applied himself to, the result was successful. He deeply regretted that he could not give an uncOndi- 1 poser of sugar could be able to sell his sugar at a more About one hundred years ago it was customary in Eng' final support to the measures of the Government, but reasonable price than if Government were to turn grocer land to speak of them as it was now of the Esquircauxs yet while saying this he was bound to observe that no and open ti etrocer's shop in every parish throughout the but the language of contempt was at au end, that h of new reason had been alleged—no new principle had eountry.—(aear, hear.) Why was it so? Because any esteem took its place. The.system of e ducation t es ec ta es lshed been advanced for the scheme which the Government indlvidital grocer had more interest in adding 0 the inScetland wasone opento many objections had proposed. All had been made fair and bright, but public welfare than any Government could possibly ha e, now to particularize, but i h mper e fe v c e t r tt a could have done bad it was evanescent in its character and quite unjustifiable If the grocer's prices were above those of his neighbours, rose to such a degree a f s re t e in its pr i ncipl e . Th e Government appeared to have if the grocer's sugar was worse than that of his rivals, he education been the e t t a o r,am acted on the principle of convenience, and according to was ruined; he had no customers; his name them see how h the facts which had transpired there might be a soon appeared in the Gazette, and his children what cliff thee richer of the two—frce courpetitiont was v al present advantage, they were quite ready to avail them- took refuge in the union worlthouse,—(Hcar, hear.) to o e ner a d egereise its influence under the most fa o selves of it. They adduced the principle offered by the If, however, on the other band, his supply was good, the lo results argument I 1 o e eec - n e yo d tmn i sp n teo t tod l i it-ei.otni:LoecWt o t u he n lei r ' r t hen,obse" A lee s t national schools and might attempt to show how sue- prices were as low as his neighbour's; if he conducted ablew eircumestoaan;reesg, cessful they had been. But they might as well attempt his business properly, and was civil a a t a i d o n he aUnion consequences, iin a to show the principles of the mode of Government with man would grow rich—he looked forward to his chaihse an d o f which all foreigners who visited them it'qs the lamentable ignorance which existed in this ceetuitry, respect to the tide - waiters. —( Laughter .) It might be and to his country house; and this was the reas l on y vii to his customers, the out by the irrwthe ashamed. In the other country, which was little feet said that with the advance of 100,000/., there Was allel voured by nature—one with a very imperfect state of r the principle of free competition was benefitecsita pa a sufficient opportunity for carrying out the whole supply of pods: But there was not the slipgh ia a ir tna ci s r u il e i h iati g o e n n , er s a u l ch pr s o e s c p u e r r i i t t y y, goods and education —the consequence was such an improvement of the scheme. But he had serious objections, and the first of these was to the unscriptural portion of the the education of the people. in these cases between the freedom of c t l r as ad ever seen in the world before. Now, if these results o a f s li h re ad an b d een pro h i rrdl y ; education plan, and he had serious objections as to how have the same interest, the satniWerthhstagrtoonegd and p schoolsr e s s iansg the in- far these plans should be carried out. He had serious serest in supplying the po experiment in surgery or che seof Men could ersons who contributed some mistry, would it not be conclusive as to the excellence ob Actions to the plan as it now stood- He had serious grocer had in supplying-h-s customers w with good sugar? had happened in any objections to an unsanctified education—to that education There were benevolent .to p give education to the poor, and of the course adopted.—(lieer, hear.) The objections that the guide post sometimts led to the gibbet. If they of their.timern order that there existed among which had been raised to this question were vanishing would give the returns they would sho w that education had they might if they please say side. If the Government had nothing to do rather increased crime than le it. from By those returns he such persons a kind of benevolence and a competition to on every would ehow that out of 1,000 convictions,agt , inst those ho d g ed, but do not let lion. Members be imposed upon by with the education of tile people, then all the grants were shown to peaces, at least, soma . de e ree of edu w ca• duo m - e o re play upon words, or imagine that such a call- which had been made were but a waste of money ; but e a - • • t 11 to be compared widi that earneTt, if they had, then they sklould not repared to forego tion; 845 were against persoe.s possessing education; ans. petition is a a H • h - • -t t ong, and fierce competition, prompted by the desire the advantages of the system for di c es ake of one hun -145 against without education. e saw, ow ever, in bro , the reign of her Majesty's Government, ff. that there was for wealth on the one hand, and a (bead of ru i n ou th e t i re d, or even two hundred thousand pounds. Even in waive all minor o ences, and with the hope other.—(Hear, hear.) Would it t no be strange to an economical view he considered that it had itsrecom such would be the case, he would give his cordial s ay that there was a great b a t of benevolence m endations, for when they took into consideration the a design to that evinced in this country towards the nd munewhich would be saved in poor . , a prisons and punishment vote in support of her Majesty's Government. Mr. MACAULAY regrett ed that he felt any neeess upon that ground it would be better to abolish the of crime, and for the purpose of preserving older and sity to make an observation on the plan of the Go- poor's rates, because the abolition of such rates would property, lie believed education of the people. It give them more by 's score alone. The money, too, could ieved its advantages could not fail to be vernment for the to the be que e st d i u o o n ate it i s i vo o l o u d n the payment of poor's rates from appreciated on tbi tary contrib u ti ons . Th e at . holds nail - be expended under the superintendence of the managers seemed a amigo time gument equa y in the case of education as in the case of the of the school in each locality ; so that the charge of cor to whether thepeoplet° wenireoot as the duty of the Government 1 , gpoor'Con and political jobbing could not be borne out. or not, or whether it . w s rates . It must appear on a moment's consideration rup i . _With that education. He •ht ' - the first lace Government did not appoint the to provide them, _te mg that the task of educating the people i s For, in p , statutes to show that there was upon ever • h teachers ; in the second place, they did not dismiss cite the penal er round just such as those with which cite on the part of the public or of the the Government them ; in the third place, the managers of the schools should interfere. He did not know no deficiency by the existence were perfectly independent of the -Government ; end. wa s well shown state, as he could notquote any in the fourth place, the salary to :the teacher welt , l statutes. On that subject drawn with such clearness by any person as by Mr. . Pena - use stronger terms than those of II hioher authorttY, or .....ada referred M David Horne , entirely contingent ou the approval of tbe lu'ust e r g t unles ughter.) He to r. is • ' ' Trig StTN, LONDON, TUESDAY VVENING, APRIL 20, 1841. .._ , 1