The Sun. — London, England, 1840-05-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MAY 16, 1840. that it is not my intention to place any new tax on the p üblie. It is not intended to place in the hands of the tax g athcrer powers with regard to any new object of taxa tion. I perfectly admit, Sir, that, in time of war, when yor have driven all your common taxes to the point which many of them were brought during the last war— when you have brought them to that point, which, Sir, if you increase them, the increase rather diminishes than increases, I admit that in that case you Mita have recurrence to some new object of revenue, but as that cannot possibly be supposed to be the case at present, several advantages may be gained. —ln the first place, you get the net amount with less expense than in any other way. The same party that collected the old tax can collect the new, and you are not obliged to have any additional establishment. - Hear, hear.) My object has been, as far as possible, to separate the burthen of taxatio n , t o make it as light and as general as possible, and not to lay on any new subject the taxes which I propose. Looking back to the practice of olden times, I have found it has not been unusual to deal with taxation on the principle of per vantage, and of increasing the duty now existing by a given per cent. I should propose, as far as it is practicable to •We opt that principle, although it is impossible to adept it generally. La she first place, with regard to stamps, it will be almost impossible to add a per centage on the stamps. 2.'he House must see that Out inconvenience would arise in making a per centage duty attach to any indivi dual.,*mp. I therefore propose, with the exception of the stamps, to take a per centage upon the Excise, Customs, and Assessed Taxes. Upon the Customs with some exceptions, I propose to take a per centage of five per cent. Upon the Assessed taxes I propose to take a per centage of 2s. in the pound, or 10 per cent.—(Mur mars.) It should be recollected that it is not a per oentage upon the value of the article, but a per centage upon the tax.—( Hear, hear, bear.) The first ex ception which I may state is with regard to epithet. It is impossible to take a per oentage upon spirits. There is one dut y in and, another in Scot land, another in Eaglaad , afourth on rum, a fifth on East India spirits, and a Axth on other foreign spirits. Long experience upon this matter shows there is such a diffv reuce between the various articles, that it would be impos sible to carry a per tentage duty practically into opera iiol2 without great difficulty. In fact, it would throw the whole trade into a state of confusion.—( Hear.) I &holed be increasing the differential duties between English, Irish, and Scotch spirit. I should bo increas ing the protection given to home-made spirits which has been se much complained of by the Colonial producer. Hear, hear, and cheers.) I should be adding to that which has bees complained of as an injustice. I mean the difference that it has made between the pro ductions of our East and Weat India possessions. I can appeal to the experience of my Ri g ht Hon. Friend, who `knows the difficulty of dealing with these questions, cad If I am only half as successful as he was on the occasion to which I allude, I shall have cause to eougratulate myself.--( Hear.) I propose, therefore, that one uniform rate of duty shall be levied upon all raw . spirits, and that a tax cf 4d. a gallon additional shall be le vied noon all raw spirits, Irish, Scotch, English, Colonial, and For,ign. There is a'so another exception in the Casten is Department, to which it is not my intention that any new rate of duty should extend. I mean the duty upon corn.__( Hear, hear, hear.) lam not now going to reser ii to the corn question, but I hope the House will. recollect that, whether rightly or wrongly I will not now stop to inquire, tat ce:n has never yet been subjected to dray as a source of re,enue; but the duties imposed upon it have been so imposed for the purpose, if posaible, of securing a fixed price of corn in this country. The questiel,of the (lilies on corn is not, therefore, a sevenue question,. but it is one of the greatest poli tical impel Lance. I am not tow going to say whether I consider it ought to be a 'avenue question or not, but as the [Luse has always been pleased to consider that corn could not be considered a fair object of usual revenue, I shall not touch the duties on corn, but leave them out of the question altogether. The other point is as regarda the Excise. The House will recollect that crlghelly cell duties on passengers by dif ferent modes of cone:piece, licences, &c., were In the 'tamp department, hut were subsequently tran:ferred to the Excise.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Now if the in crease were to apply to then-, I think it would effect these Interests in which it ,voultl be moit burdensome, ta;:elorc 1 propcao to mike t xception from the increase of the f.iciae.—(liver.) Now as to the Assessed •Taxes—l propese an ada: jen of 2.5. en the pound, or ten per cent. There is another point w Ach retpares no test lutioa , but which I thin - % it right ?0 state ac part of the cew arrange- meats. The Hauso rill recolpct that it has been tdse custom of the Departinnt of Taxes to isease eirections for the surreys Its to the taoloua taxes; that, tout ciicurestaeces, has been delayed for a lenge' ;ime than tau el. The esscesincnt hes not tacitly beer taken, unlese when a new necessity fp:. it arose. But I (r. 70 every reason to expect that if a trash survey werai m :de, it woe!d raise a considerable revenue—not in an unfe.ir manner, but ; - tort partiva who leave 11 , 1 paid as much as they ought. This Is a tax which I k.;ow would nut be very popular, but it is perfectly just and fair. I would not feel just:fied in prepoaing to impose new taxes, until truer who are et present liable to taxes which oth -r3 pay 1.411, should be brought to account, sand pay what was feisty seeing from them.--(llear, bear hear.) I do not mean to make a retrespsetive charge.—(bear.) -kilo not mean to act vindictively to wards them, Qr tie make the tax re.tributive. I wilt not gay them to pay up :he arrear.—(La'ughter.) I will only say •• Gentlemen, you have been lucky enough to escape so so far ; now, will . you hays the goodness to pay fairly what you owe in future." (hear, hear, henr.) kissing stated t e sources from which I expect to derive the increased revenue, I will proceed to state the accounts upon which I calculate from these diarent sources, making those ornis sisaa labial' I have explainei From the five per cents. on C' stoles aced Excise, this is calculated upon for the year at 426,4001., Spirits, 4d. a gallon, 84,800 e. Ma tax of ten per cent. en the Assessed Taxes 276,000/. As to the increase from th survey, when I state the amount of what I expect to get from it, it will chow to what extent people have es caped ; the amount which I expect is 150 . 0001. estimates I have already stated of the amount of in. came which have been properly calculated on without the atilditi:su, amount to 46 700.0001. ; add to this the addition, arai the result will be 49,037,0001., the full amount of the eapeaaditure; including the estimates for Canada and China, the result will be 49,432,0001. ; and comparing it with toe income proposed, will leave a deficiency of 397,0001. Wish regard to the vote for Canada and China, I am not prepared to make a permanent addition to the.burdens of the country,and therefore propose to meet thed9d,ooo4 for these purposes with a vote of credit. I have given that calcula tion which supposes all these taxes to be in operation, and calculated,frem the result of these taxes, supposing them to have been in operation during the whole year. Bat as Gentlemei, conversant with the regulations of the revenue know well that would not be a fair calculation, as a certain period of the year has already elapsed, and from the mode in which the assessed and excise taxes are col lected, a considerable part is not paid in until after a cer t:fin period, and consequently we cannot expect to receive the whole of their amount during the present year. Sir, I do not apprehend that 1 could, from any casual dal eiezecy of this natia-e arising from the time in which these taxes are paid into the Exchequer —I do not apprehend that that is a fair subject upon which I could call for an additional revenue, and it would not be fair to propose ad ditihnal taxation, to meet, not a deficiency in the revenue, but a deficiency arising from the circumstance of the time when these taxes are paid. But that will be a consider able addition to the vote, which I shall have to ask for in cluding the Canada and China vote, and that pact of the deficiency of the taxes which will not be paid into the Ex. ,chequer in ,the present year. Teat will increase the vote of credit, which I shall call for, to the amount of 850,000/. The actual sum which I estimate to be paid into the Ex chequer will heap the Customs 2,500,e00/., on the Excise 14,241,0001., fdriStamps 7,020,000/. for taxes 3,880,0004 tor the Post-office, 530,0001. ; for the drown lands 170,0001., and for oher miscellaneous items 250,0001., making a total 0148,591,0004 Sir, I have now stated to the House the probable income and expenditure for the ensuing year, and !hare endeavoured, as far as in my power lay neither to overstate the probable increase of the income nor to under state, that which I believe to be the probable expenditure. Sir, looking to the state of the revenue and of the country, 'believe you may anticipate thlt the increase which has fa- some years gone on in the revenue will continue— ( Hear.) We have passed through a year of considerable ddifficulty and fi nanc i a l em b arrassment—and when those Menhirs,' are removed, of course the increase will be augmented.—( Hoar, bear.) I haste endeavoured not to impos e too heavy hurdens upon the country in new taxa tion.; but I felt annviaced that at the p resent moment it *mkt, be imp oss ibl e to place the finan ces upon a whole some ebasis, without increasing our ;vat income.— ('Hear, hear.) I sin well aware that ohr w tb o o rds oo , o , "near are never popular in tbis Hot's but I have still su ffi cient calleffdenee ill t o e go od s n e nt n re s yw e believe a . tha . t of the people of th is country, not t ./apqn. consideration they will be satis fi ed a wiser proceeding is meet this difficu o lt/ l e a a d t t ie, c it it nce ls , tt ar attempf to stave it off by temporary , hear)—and at whatever sacrifice of pPopeifirits t f. shall not regret having striven thus to meet the dif fi eulty.' Icy prompt and immed iate measures.—( Cheers. In " r _ oluilidn, I willagLetatp that I think it is of importanee that the resoluWe shOttld be carried as soon as possible, &a order to put an end to any doubts and hesitations in vicious branches of trade.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) I hire three resolutions to propose. The first relates to the Customs, the second to the Excise, end the third to the Assessed The resolution which I now pro pose should be put from the chair, is the one relating to Zee Customs. Tho Right lion. Gentleman, having banded the resolution to the Speaker, sat down amidst load cheering from all parts of the House, which lasted some time. The resolution—which proposed that from and after the 15th of May, 1840, an additional duty of per cent. should be levied upon all Custom duties of all kinds and nature whatever, except that paid upon spirits and tat paid upon corn ; and that, from and after the ekeed 15th of May, there shall be raise up an every gallon dispirits impo r t e d i nto the United Kingd om acs additional 1141tyrojild. gallon —was then put. UME said, th at if- the cheers with which the Right et. Gentleman had been greeted on taking his seat, were intended as a mark o b f e approbation of the clear tend drstinit maims!. in r hieihn suci ! l iad made his statement, he would cordially join hear rn lPPrabati?n.( Cheer) theny Rfini2haVaHl statements,, k had been his fete to and be was not complimenting than when he said that it never had been hi s Hon. (fYo:l4.rtulaee to hoar one more clear and explicit, or sn i ore r intelligible. Many who had heard that statement IPI not , I 'one, folio red the Right Hon. Gentleman as lee 'one, with pencil and paper in their lid, and as far astbhadet had fiellowed hires he must do him th justice to say nothing could be more intelligible thin the statement which he had made.—( Cheers.) He rmretted extiernely the necessity which the Right non. Gentleman had felt f under, of laying en eddisional taxation, at a time art such great pressure existed; and be could not ;Ir. HUME begged to refer the Hon. Chairman to the rer ution appointing the Committee of Ways and Means. The CHAIRMAN read the appointment of the Com , mittec to consider " the ways and means of raising the supply granted to her Majesty."—( Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME then confidently submitted that his amend. meet came within the terms of this reference. The Chan cellor of the Exchegter proposed one " Ways and Means," he proposed another.—.(Hear hear.) Mr. EWART observed that the very appointment of the Committee was for the purpose of consulting on what ar, r.) d on as to plan should b e a d opted. None was yet decide moating the public es i g encies.—(He hea Lord J. RUSSELL said he thought the amendment was not regular in the pre sent C ommittee. It was far too (general a proposition. Mr. WA RB UR ['ON suggested that it should be ren dered more precise by wording it, " that the sam e duties be levied on the descent of real as personal pr o p erty. " Mr. G UL B URN strongly objected to Cie amend :meta ; nobo:ly could tell under it whether the equalization will to he by diminution or increase. Mr. HUME said it was monstro us l to p retend that no body could propose a - new tax in t he Committee but the Chancellor of th,c Exchequer.—( Hear, h ear.) Mr. GOULLIURN somew hat angrily d en i e d that he perhaps the Hon. Membe r cou l d not un meant that, and a laugh.) So v ague a rcso.. derstand him .—( Hear, ~deceiving lution, ho wever , would be s , audin , because buf, the public. M. 11U11E would then razice it fair and plain eno ug h by correcti ng i t , t h at the sameduty 1);) levied on the de scent of real as personal property. Mr. LANGDALE thought ill fairness the transfer of bancicd property should ba cc - pally taxed. Mr. fIUME said, for fifty ye:.;s past there had hcen in agree with the proposal which he had made as to the manner of laying on these taxes. The fault lay, he must say, with the people, who did not send representatives into that House who attended to the expenditure of the coun try. Frequently, when the estimates were discussed, and when he had endeavoured in vain to procure reductions in them, there were not sixty Members attending. He would appeal to the empty benches which the House exhi bited on each of these occasions as a proof of this statement, wheat not one-fifth of the Members were ever present. i The Right Hon. Gentleman had, much to his credit, placed in the hands of Members an account of income and expenditure for the last five years, thus giving every indi vidual an opportunity of ascertaining, without question or delay, every item of increase or decrease within that period. It was satisfactory to see that so far as the revenue itself was concerned there was no deficit. The revenue in 1.36 amounted to 46 millions and a half in round numbers, while in 1840 it amounted to 47 mil lions and nearly three quarters. The House would see that during those five years no relief of taxation, so far as the subject was concerned, had taken place, and yet they found that while in the first year there was a surplus of 2,339,0001., in the last there was a deficiency of 3,316,000/. owing to the increased expenditure.--(Great confusion in consequence of Members leaving the House, w hi c h rendered the Hon. Member at times inaudible, and cries of " Order, order.") That interruption only proved his statement—that as regarded taxation the House paid no attention to it. The people should send representatives to that House who would economise expenditure as well as make laws. There - .vas no department more impor tant for the welfare of the country than that they were now discussing, and yet they could scarcely hear them selves speak. TiitHon. Member had listened to the statement of the Brat Hon. Gentlemen, and he thought he detected something like a feeling of satisfaction on their parts, that the addition proposed to the taxation was not more than it was.--( Cries of " Hear, hear.") The necessity for this increase had arisen entirely from the annual votes of that House. The army and navy, the ordnance and the miscellaneous estimates, had been in creased ; so that while in 1836 and 1837, with a less revenue, they had a surplus—during the last two years, with an increased revenue, they had a deficiency. What had occasioned this ? Why the Gentlemen on his side of the House had unfortunately listened to the suggestions of Gentlemen on the other, who had been constantly com plaining that neither the army or the navy were in a state becoming the dignity of the country, and that they were incompetent to its defence. Unfortunately they had yielded to these suggestions, and increased the army and navy, which rendered it necessary to lay on those taxes. He had warned the House repeatedly of the danger of driving Canada to desperation. Two millions and a half had actually been expended in consequence of the acts of oppression towards that country, and the question would naturally arise, was Canada worth the money that was expended in that way ?—( Hear, hear)-- oppression naturally led to other results. The oppressed might suffer, but that suffering ultimately recoiled on the oppressor, and we were now paying part of the penalty. The Noble Lord must recollect that when ha proposed his resolutions three ago years—resolutions which be con sidered the most revolutionary ever pr. posed, he (Mr. Hume) had said that a day of reckoning would come, and that day had now arrived, when they were callel upon to pay two millions and a-half which had been expended for the military establishments of the colony.-- k Hear, hear, hear.) If the rich had been called upon to pay he should not object to it, as they were the proper parties to do it ; and herein he dif fered from the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposal. He did not complain of the Post-office changes. He considered them of the greatest value to the country. He thought that change would fie of greater advantage than any other redaction of an equal amount that could have been made. —( Hear, hear.) Although the apparent deficiency was 800,0001. taking the estimate of the Right Hon. Gentle man, yet he looked forward to a progressive improvement in that department, when the plan of the original pro poser of the measure had been fully carried out. One part of the plan was, that instead of an increase there should be a decrease in the number of persons employed in the Post-office, whereas there had actually been an in crease. He would meatier, oac instance. They had been told that if all letters were pre-paid, one man would deliver as much as four or eight; yet with all the facilities aff :rded by pre-payment, a greater number of persons bad actually been employed.-_( Cries of " Hear, hear.") Yet, notwitlitanding ail this, he thought the country got greater relief from that 800,0001. than if it had been taken off any other article. He diffred with the Chan cellor of the Exchequer as to the laying on of any new tax: He thought toe present method ut taxation highly objectionable, on account of its inequality. It pressed not on the rich but on the poor and middling classes, and those who lived by daily labour. Now the Right Hon. Gentleman, instead of laying taxes on those who were able to pay, had imposed this addition on the already over burdened middle and poorer classes. He would mention ores item alone—the taxation on property by descent. There were two Glasser of property—personal and real— and why the one should b.; taxed beyond the other, Le could not understand. But as real property belonged alon2 to the rich, the difficulty was at once solved. The rLh man excuses himself from all payment, and throws the whole burthen on the poorer and middle classes ; and this already unequal taxation it was proposed to increase by 5 and 10 per cent.,-( Cries of " Hear.") Mr. Pitt instituted these taxes forty-two yews ago ; and look to what burthens were shifted from the rich upon the poor and the middle class since that time I Take the case of the Duke of Sutherland, who succeeded to an unencum bered estate of 200,0001. That property passed to him from his father with Gut payment of a single farthing, of tax, whereas one of his own servants could not leave 1501, of his savings to his son without paing a tax of from one to ten per cent. He marvelled much that the middle class and shopkeepers stlio .had the power of sending Members to Parliament, would send any man to the House of Com mons who would not pledge himself to make taxation equal. Land, inherited by descent, paid nothing ; but the tax upon other heritable property amounted to 2,000,000/. But the Chancellor of the. Exchequer instead of equalising the taxes, was about to odd to the burden of the poor indus trial classes. Mr. Pitt brought in two Bills—one fur a tax upon the inheritance of personal, and the other upon teat of real property. Both proceeded to the second reading, when the numbers were equal upon the Real Property Bill, and Mr. Addington (now Lord Sidmouth) being in the chair, declined to give his casting vote, on the ground that it might be better to reconsider the Bill. In the meantime the country gentlemen waited on Mr. Pitt, and told him if he pressed the Bill they would op pose his Government. Accordingly, the measure was never again mooted in the House. The other Bill, how ever, for taxing property, which was the produce of in dustry, passed both Flanges; and in its operation it was a most unjust measure. It had produced nearly 58 millions sterling since it was established. Why then was the land to be exempted any longer, whilst new burthens were to be thrown upon industry ? He asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not such a proceeding sufficient to increase the discontent of the country ?-....( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman was adding to the inequality of the taxation, and was putting a tax upon every article that came within the reach of a poor man, for it was no torious that the taxes upon excised articles were princi pally paid by the middle and lower classes, and that the landlords did not contribute in the proportion of one per cent. to the taxes. The Right lion. Gentleman only wanted two millions, and as that was the amount of the tax on personal property, the .tight lion. Gentleman could get what he wanted by putting an equal t ax upon rea l property.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The land had been exempted for forty years, and surely ought to be so no longer. It was by the influence of the landlords the ex travagance in public expenditure was incurred • but they, in fact, contri ve d t o ma k e ot h ers pay the reckoning. In the Reform Bill the predominance of the land was main tained, and in the new scheme of taxation the Right Hon. Gentleman looked to the interests of his own class, and threw the burdens of the State upon the industrious classes. The Right Hen. Gentleman said that the mode of raising revenue should be proper and vigorous. Where was the fitness or the vigour of oppressing the poor man still further, and letting the rich go free?—( Hear, hear.) The landlords ought to be compelled to pay their fair share. Why should not the son pay one per cent. and ithe stranger ten when they inherited landed property as well as personal property? Look to what took place in Fran to in 1789—the people relic against their oppressors, as had been foretold by those men who saw the danger of throwing all the burthens on the poor. The landlords were now following the ruinous career of the French Go vernment, and let them look to the consequences. Why should they not allow the poor man his pot of beer and a cigar ?—( Laughter. ) He would now move an amendment to the effect that a duty be laid upon land inherited by descent. Me had warned the Government not to 'take advice from the opposite side of the House, but to recollect that their supporters were the middle classes. Let the Hon. Gentleman bring in a Bill for the e urpese of imposing the same tax upon real as upon per sonal property, and to tax the Corporations and the Church, and if he should be out-voted let him appeal to the country. He would then find that no Ministry could stand an hour against him.--( Cheers.) The Hon. Member concluded by moving a resolution to the effect " that it is expedien to equalize the taxes upon real and personal property." Mr. BE RNA L said that he did not think it was corn. petent to him in a Committee of Ways and Means to put a question which implied an opinion that it was expedient to levy a new tax. every Loan Act a clause exempting the transfer of funds from taxation, Mr. BRISCOE said Lord Althorp had been, from the sumo reason, compelled to relinquish the plan. Mr. LANGDALE said that on the point of form he would withdraw his proposition, the justice of which he yet maintained.--(Hear.) Sir R. PRICE said the landed interests were subjected to heavy charges on the transfer of land, mortgages, &c. Mr. E WART said much or all of this might be avoided, by a general system of registration applied to landed pro perty, to which, nevertheless, the landed interests ever opposed themselves.—( Hear, hear.) The amendment of his Hon. Friend was founded on justice ; and the inequa lities of taxation would not now exist, but that the landed interest possessed the monopoly of one House, and the predothinance in the other.--( Hear, hear.) The in justice of such distinctions between various classes, would speedily be discovered by the good sense of the people ; all would find that, by the inevitable decrees of Pro vidence, this country must ce ase t o b e an agri cultural and become a commercial nation.—( Hear. ) He agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that care ought to be taken that in raising taxes the trade of the country was extended. But he believed that it was im possible to do so. He (Mr. Ewart) was one who thought the Corn-laws ought to be totally repealed, and therefore he was not the advocate of raising taxes by an exten sion of trade, and by putting a fixed duty ou corn. If not from corn, at all events . by the reduction and equa lization of the timber duties. The Government might derive a strong reinforcement to its revenues by ex tending the commerce of the country.—(Hear, hear.) By reducing the duty on tea and coffee, and extending the trade, the revenue might also be increased.— (Hear.) He should probably on a future occasion introduce that subject to the attention of the House, but for the present he would content himself with supporting the proposition of his Hon. Friend the Member for Kil kenny. Mr. TURNER was opposed to any additional burthens being thrown upon the people. He was in favour of the general principles upon which her Majesty's Government acted, but he should not be doing his duty if he did not oppose the proposition made by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer. Colonel SIBTHORP thought the speeches of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny and the Hon. Member for Wigan had been directed more against the landed interest and the abolition of the Corn laws than to the subject broached by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. For him self, he must beg to say that the deficiency mentioned by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to be attributed to the misapplication of the revenue of the country, such as defraying the expenses of Dr. Bowring, the ex penses of the Canada mission, and other Ministerial hum bugs.—(Laughter.) He was directly opposed to the 10 per cent. upon the Assessed Taxes. Why did not her Majesty's Government put a tax upon champagne, or a tax of 10 per cent. upon the salaries of her Majesty's ser vants, or the salaries of all idle and dissolute persons Ike them.—( Laughter.) When the Report was brought up he should state more particularly his objections to the Budget, but at present he would not oppose the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. GO UL BUR N commenced by saying, that how ever true it might be that in the multitude of councillors there was wisdom, that maxim would not hold good with regard to the multiplicity of Chancellors of the Ex chequer,—(A laugh.) They had bad no less than four Hon. Gentlemen that evening who had favoured the House with their opinions. The Hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Ewart) proposed a reduction of the duty on sugar and coffee; the Hon. Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Lang dale) proposed to meet the exigencies of the public ser vice by taxing property in the Funds, in violation of every Act of Parliament that had been passed ; then there was the proposition of the Honourable Member for Kikenny ; and, lastly, they had the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, proceeding in the ordinary course of official business, had communicated to the House what was the real state of the finances of the country, and had brought the subject regularly before the House in the ordinary course of discussion. In alluding to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he hoped he might he permitted in the outset to express his entire concur rence in the sentiment expressed by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, that no statement on the subject of finance could hose been more clear or more satisfaettay, so far as it conveyed to the House a distinct view of the present situation of the fiaances of the country, and the means by which be proposed to meet the difficulty.—( Hear, hear, from both sides of the House.) It was not his intent;on to enter into a discussion of the whole of the conflicting propositions before the House, and for this reason, that when he had to discuss a tax, he must know what it was to produce, cold that the person by whom it was proposed had a clear idea of the nature of the proposition he made. The Hon. Member for Kilkenny proposed to extend the legacy duty to landed property, which, if the Hon. Meal her had bad the advantage of looking into the detailed accounts of the duties at the Stamp Office, he would never have broached to the House, for the purpose of realising the amount required. When any proposition of the kind should be brought before the House he would be prepared to show the utter want of informa tion the lion. Gentleman possessed as to the degree of in come that would result to the public from the tax he pro. posed. He would offer a few observations, and only a few, upon the propositions of the Chancellor of the Excit e- quer. He quite agreed in the sentiment with which the !sight Hon. Gentlemen concluded his speech, that it was expedient to meet at once a deficiency of this nature, and not to stave it off from time to time ; but ho (Mr. G.) could not but express his reg ret that the Government of which the Ri g h t Hon. Gntleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was so distinguished a member, should, not have been animated with that feeling at a somewhat earlier period—that they shoull not have pet off the consideration of that question , and have staved oil' the difficulty of,meeting a deficiency of revenue until the fourth year of its existence, and until it had arisen to an amount sufficient to alarm all who felt the importance of not permitting a deficiency of the revenue, as compared with the expenditure, to exist. If' the Chancellor of the Exchequer's predecessor had, when the deficiency first oc curred, been careful as to the repeal of taxes, or had faken measures to meet the deficiency in its earlier stages, that Right Hon. Gentleman, now a Noble Lord, would have found greater facilities in meeting the di ffi c u l t i es w hi c h arose, and would not have left to his successor the dis agreeable task of adding to the burthens of the country to the extent required on the present occasion. The Hon. Member for Kilkenny complained of tho expenses to which the country was put oe account of Canada. He regretted that they had been involved in great additional expense on that account, but that had been in a great mea sure induced by the Hon. Member himself, who in the outset had fostered the rebellious spirit in that colony. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had thought it right to make some apology for presenting an estimate of revenue, and then an estimate of revenue different from the present, at the request of his (Mr. Goulborn's) Right Hon. Friends, and amid the cheers of his party. He had thought proper to animadvert upon the course taken on that occasion, as imposing very great difficulty on the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and lie imprest upon the House that the estimate which he had now prepared must be much more accurate, because a quarter of' the financial year having elapsed, his calcula tions could be made with much more accuracy. He (Mr. G.) could not see the strength of the Right lion. Gentle man's argument. Theßight Hon. Gentleman was required on the lath of February to give an estimate of the year ending on the sth of January following ; thirty-nine days of the financial year had then elapsed, and the Rt. Hon. Gentleman had taken till the 29th of March to make the return. Ho had an opportunity of consulting all the departments and yet, nevertheless an estimate was laid on the table, which he now pro nounced to be incorrect. What was the difference ? Forty-one days of the financial year to which the Right Hon. Gentleman's present statement applied are expired, and the estimate was presumed to be far more accurate on account of those two additional days.—(Hear, hear.) lie did not intend to go into any detail of the probable re ceipts and expenditure. There was one point, however, on which he thought the expectations of the Right Hon. Gentleman would be disappointed. The Right Hon. Gen tleman proposed that the expense of the expedition to China should be brought under the consideration of the House annually, the Government being the party moving Customs. Excise. the military affairs, and that they should not stand in the 830 £17,500,000 1830 situation they w e r e i n w h en t h e war- li ke operations were 831 16,500,000 1831 £36,000,000 left to the East I n di a C ompany, she Government making 832 16,700,000 1832 33 32,000,000,000,000 good the expenditu re . Ti ne H ouse knew nothing of the 833 16,208,000 1833 32,000,000 amount of military or nava l f orce required. It was dif. 834 16,402,000 1834 33,000,000 ficult for th ose not in the se cre t o f t h e G overnment ' 835. 20,366,000 1835 33,630,000 to give any correct est i mate; but if they were to 836 21,488,000 1836 36,642,000 give any credit to the reports in the public papers, and if 1 8 38 20,846,000 1837 33,954,000 they were to draw any inference from the expense 183 2 21,583,000 1838 34,978,000 attending former expeditions to Java and Persia, 1839 35,093,000 he must say that the estimate of 15,0001. w as ext reme ly The House would observ e that, though these great dimi low, and those who we re beat a cqua i nted w i t h t h e mo d e i n notions in the taxes, both in the Customs and Excise, had which operations were carried on in the eastern hemisph e r e taken place, yet at the end of ten years the present produce would say that it was much below what the expenditure of the two branches of the revenue was almost equal to what would really amount t o . Th e gen era l result of t h e Ri g h t it was in 1830. After reading these statements, be did Hon. Gentleman's statement was that they had an ex en - net think it necessary to make any f ur ther observations. diture of 49,432,0001,, with an income of 4 8,591,000/., Mr. WARBURTON said he had expressed a hope and that a sum of 850,0001, was t o b e bor rowe d. I t was last year that, when they came to this discussion they would clear, therefore, that at the end of th e y ear th e y would go into an examination of the different sources of the re have an addition to the debt little short of a million. Now venue, but instead of this, he thought the plan of the if it turns out that the expenditure was at all under-esti_ Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to be to produce mated, or that the addition to the taxes would not be so a Budget that would pass easily through the House productive as had been ca l cu l ate d at the close of the year, rather than one that would be advantageous to the country. they wotad be in the situati on t h ey h ad been for some Some p o i n t s h a d b een a l rea d y not i ce d by those who had years past, namely, that of con gratu l at i ng themselves rather preceded him. He could not commend a system of taxa because the deficiency was less than they expected, than tion, which, when an increase was proposed, omitted from that they made the expenditure equal to the revenue. one essential part of it, viz, the Assessed Taxes, one of He was prepared, however. to vote fertile resolution, being the three kingdoms.—( Hear, hear.) The Assessed Taxes satisfied that some provision mu s t 'b e ma d e for the for Ireland were altogether exempted, which he did not deficiency, and that these taxes should h ave t h e aut h ority think a legitimate exemption.—( Hear, hear.) The Right of the House of Commons as soon as p oss ibl e , to prevent l i on. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere), speaking of the any undue advantage being taken of the propo s iti on o f the a ddi t i on of 5 per cent. on the article of tobacco, admitte d Government. He bad some doubts with r esp ect to t h e t h ere was already a duty of 1,200 per cent. upon the ar general views of the Right Hon. Gentleman. It was pro- title, and used the argument, if there is 1,200 per cent., posed that generally on the Customs and Excise there should why not 5 per cent. more ? He joined in the wish of the be an addition of 5 per cent., and that amount was calculated Hon. Member for Wigan, that in this great department by ridding one twentieth to the existing revenue. Now he of the Customsrevenue, they should really go into an invcs (Mr. Goulburn) entertained v e ry considerable doubts, tigation, and see whether a less amount and a different whether on some of the articles the addition of 5 per cent, apportionment of duty would not really produce a larger would not make a very considerable diminution in the revenue. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had used an consumption, He would take the article of tobacco of I argument which might be used against him with regard to 1 which a large quantity was exported; he felt apprehensive I the duty on corn. lie said it was imposed, not for re that an addition of five per cent. would only occasion a con- venue, but for the protection of a class; siderable adulteration of the article, without adding to the only article of this kind? He would just mention that revenue. H e doubt e d also whether the Right lion. Gen- against which he had so long and so frilitlCSS!y . COM but was that the tleman had m a de allowance for the effect which the war ' plained—the differential duty on timber. —( He ar , abi.easr;e) i with China would produce in the consumption of the very 1 The effect of this argument on that wou'd be, t, would be wtaokuelidi p h l a a v c c e, th a e nd eff th e e ct p o r f ic a e important article of tea. A consierable rise bad latel , per cent, on .555., the duty on Baltic timber, would before. There diminutionmight y o ti'n increase, which consumption. e. There would be also a great inequality in tile general duty Lie entirely approved of the amendment of . Hon. 1 2s. 9d., and on Canada timber, which is 103., wo uld be I 6d., thus making the deficiency much wider thenn ris of 4i!. a gallon imposed on all kinds of spirit s , O n b ran d y ; Friend, and he hoped th e a t ten ti on of the working classes would be excited against the addition would be only 11 per cent., en Rum it would I would be called to this subj ec t, and that as strong a feels he 4 per cent., on British spirits 5 per cent., on leg Scotch 10 per cent., and on I r i s h sp i r i ts is per duties as on the subject of corn ; and if such were the cent., and he very much doubted whether t h e case, he had no doubt they would succeed in obtaining the legacy and probate sam e effect might not be produced in Ireland and Scotland repeal of each. as had been produced in 1830, when he ( Mr. Goulburn) ' Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman who had just imposed au additional duty on Irish and Scotch sp i r i ts , sat down, did not appear to entertain a very favourable no which only Increased the illicit distillation, without adding don of the Reformed House of Commons, for he thought in the revenue. With respect to the assessed taxes, he had very little doubt that these taxes would bear the additional duty ; but when he coupled with that a new survey of the windows, the Right Hon. Gentleman must see that he imposes a much heavier burden, which would operate pe culiarly on the dwellings of the humbler classes. Many of those had opened additional windows, which had been previously exempted from duty, and these would all be included in the new survey. (Hear, hear.) He certainly could not but express his satisfaction that the moment had arrived when he trusted the House was prepared to look fairly at the state of its finances, and to make provision for equalizing their income with the increased expenditure. He felt it was a duty they owed themselves and the country, to make an effort to discharge their obligations, and not leave them to their successors to pay. There was an opinion generally prevalent in other countries, that so long as the finances of England are in A sound state, she might defy the world, but if her financial system were once broken down, then the glory of England was set, and her power and influence on the Continent put an end to. Many of the meat respectable and best-thinking men on the Continent thought we, were allowing uur income to fall short of our expenditure, and that England might be insulted with impunity. He never entertained any opinion but that this country had the power of providing for the ordinary expenditure, and also pro v idi ng f or t h at extraor dinrry expenditure for which in every country some pre paration must be made. So far, therefore, the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman met with his support. Mr. L ABO UC HE RE entirely agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, that it afforded great satisfaction to all who regarded the permanent althoughntr considerable difference of progress interests debate, 3rl to observe that in the opinion existed as to the . means which it might be expe dient to resort to to provide for the diminished income, yet at the same time every Hon. Gentleman who addressed the House was ready to . assert . it was the bounden duty to e n ba n te n , n look at the situation in . which they were placed, and pro vide the means for placing the finances of the country in that position in which they ought to stand. He thought the general accordance of opinion on t hi s point afforded the best grounds of sat isfaction. He should not feel it his duty to enter into details with regard to the subject to be discussed to-night, as he should have a f u t ure opportu nity of doing so. At the same time he would make a few observations on what had fallen from the Gentlemen who preceded him. In the first place he could not but think it singularly infelicitous in the Hon. Member for Kilkenny to take this occasion of saying that the state ment and proposals of his Right Hon. Friend exhibited an unfair desire to lay the burthen of taxation on the bum bler classes of the community, and to spare the more sills ent. He thought that anybody who looked at the taxes his Right Hon. Friend proposed, and considered the largo additional amount ho proposed to lay upon the assessed taxes, and the effect of an increase of the window tax, would see that by far the most consideeable portion of the increased burthen would be imposed on the richer classes of the community ; nor could he agree with the Hon. Member for Wigan, when he stated that the proposal of his Right Hon. Friend would have an injurious effect on the commercial interest of the country. He was riot about to enter into a controversy with the Hon. Gentle man on the important points raised in this discussion as to the expediency of reducing the duties on coffee, sugar, and other articles of colonial produce. He did not mean to say that strong and cogent arguments might not be urged in favour of a course of that description, but at the same time he need not observe the many difficulties with which the subject was surrounded, and his Hon. Friend seemed sensible of them, for he took care to guard himself against being supposed to make a distinction between slave-grown and free-grown sugar. He must say, es a financial and commercial proposition, he thought it difficult to establish that they would not by this do an injury to the grower; but as his Hon. Friend admitted this subject had better be left for a separate discussion, he would nut follow him farther upon it. The Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down stated that he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer complained of the difficulties in which he was placed with respect to the estimates he was about to lay upon the table, in consequence of the motion which had been made by the Hon. Member for Warwick. He (Mr. Labouchere) remembered a declaration not long ago of the Right Hon. Member for Pembroke (Sir J. Graham) who while enume rating the defeats of the Government, and stating the rea sons e. by he thought they could not, with due regard to their own character, retain office, after those defeats, took care to remind the House of their defeat on that occasion, and saying that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was placed in a situation in which none of his predecessors had been ever placed, and endeavoured to draw the House to a con clusion that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, being placed in so embarrassing a situation, was a proof that he did not possess the confidence of the House.—( Hear, hear.) Taut was a little true, but the argument should be applied to both sides of the question, for they were told at one time when the Government were asked to agree to this, that the proposal was so reasonable they ought not to oppose it ; but when they thought they had placed the Government in an embarrassing position, and had induced some Hon. Members to forsake them, then they turned run and slid, " Now we have inflicted a stigma upon you, and placed you in a situation of diculty, and hold up the Chancellor of the Exchequer as a man not trusted by the House, and call upon the Government to resign upon the vote come to by the House of Com mons." This was not fair on a class of sub jects which ought to be drawn away from the usual topics of pnrty discussion, he meant questions of finance. He must also express hi s sat i s f act i on at the general tone of th e Right Hon. Gentleman, who, although he had expressed doubts upon the plan of his Right Hon. Friend, had, he thought, an impression upon his mind favourable to it, that there was no better way of meeting the deficiencies than by the proposition which had been made. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated, however, there were certain points on which the proposal of his Right Hon. Friend to increase import du ties 5 per cent., would produce a detrimental effect, and he (Mr. Labouchere) heard with some surprise the Right Hon. Gentleman quote the article of tobacco, of which we received the greatest amount of duty, as one that would be eo affected by it. Now when they remembered the pre sent duty of tobacco amounted to 1,200 per cent. he thought it impossible to conceive the addition of so trifling a sum as 5 per c e n t. would make any material difference in the consumption. He would also remind tile House, that it was not unimportant to consider, w h en di scussing the pro bable effect of a certain increase of duty on our imports, especially on Customs duties, what had been the course with regard to these during the last few years. If the House would take the last ten years, they would find that a great reduction had taken place, not only on general taxation, but also on the Excise. He would remind the House in a few words what had actually taken place in this respect. He found that since the year 1830 the gross amount of reduction on Customs duties was 2,163,0004, the additional duties imposed 656,0001, leaving the amount of duty repealed 1,507,0001. With regard t o E xc i se d ut i es, there had been repealed during the same time 4,656,000/. There had been imposed 1 81,000/, leaving the total amount repealed 4,475,0004 He found on the Stamp duties there had been repealed 587,0001., imposed 21,0001., leaving a net repeal of 566,0004 On taxes there had been a repeal of 1 ,740;0001., imposed 1,0701., leaving a net repeal of 1,73:4,9304 On this branch, therefore, there had been repealed 6,284,000/, during the last ten years, to which must be added 1,000,0004 for postage. He thought the House would perceive, there fore, that though proposing to lay fresh ‘irthens on the country, during the last ten years, not only, in fact, has a great diminution taken place, but that on those taxes which bore on the commerce of the country, viz. the Ex cise and Customs, there had been a great diminution. There was another point to which he thought it material to call attention upon this occasion —he had already stated how many Custom duties had been repealed, and how large an amount of revenue was derived from them, but was it the case the revenue had diminished upon this system ? On th e contrary, nothing proved more conclusively the energy and industry of the commerce of this country, than to see that although they had had the good fortune to propose this diminution, how the Customs revenue had kept up during the operation of this system. He would now read to the House the net receipts of the Customs and Excise duties during the same apace of time:— - the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) had produced a Budget rather with a view of meeting the concurrence of the House of Commons, than for the advantage of the country. This was the result of all the labours of the Hon. Gentleman in favour of a Re formed House of Commons—(Hear)—that he thought the House of Commons so little represented the opinions of the country, and felt so little interest in its prosperity, that when the Budget was proposed, it was proposed ra ther with a view to passing through the House, than for the promotion of that interest, thereby implying that the opinion of the House of Commons and the welfare of the country were entirely opposite.—( Hear, hear.) He ap. prehended the discussion of to-night was not on the details of the proposal made, but whether, there being a defi ciency in the revenue, they should resort to the miserable expedient of meeting that by imposing fresh duties, or making an effort for equalising the revenue with the ex penditure. He had no doubt, nor did he hesitate to declare in favour of the principle recommended by 'the Right Honourable Gentleman. He thought nothing was more discreditabl e , a ft er a comp l ete proof that the deficiency was not temporary, than to think of shifting the burdens which properly belonged to you after twenty-five years of general peace, and refusing to look these difficulties fairly in the face, and make some effort to equalize the expendi ture and the income ; and therefore he said, if the Hon. Gentleman had resorted to any such experiment, and asked for a vote of credit for the amount of the whole deficiency, whether such a vote would have been popular or not he (Sir R. P.) should have wholly disregarded, and have given it his most strenuous opposition. He thought it right to propose in the present year an increase in the taxation of the country to meet the deficiency, and he must say he thought, on the whole, the slight addition to the present amount of taxation, without imposing novel taxes, was the best course the Hon. Gentleman could adopt; because, if he had imposed new taxes, he thought there would be a ranch greater disturbance of capital than by making a small addition to those which already existed.—( Hear.) And in the second place the plan is a good one, because there will be no necessity for any large increase of the es tablishment such as would have been necessary had they revived the tax upon salt or leather. Upon the whole he thought the plan was a good one, and he preferred it to either a small property tax or reviving others. At the same time it was impossible to look at the state of our finances without great mortification. On looking at the expenditure of the last five years, they found a gradual and very rapid increase ; in 1836 the expenditure, apart from the payment of the charge of the debt, was fourteen millions ; in 1837 it was 14,400,000/. ; 1838 15,392,0001.; in 1839 it had risen to 16,452,000/. ; and in 1840 it rose to 17,100,0001., that was certainly very unsatisfactory, but it was more so when they took a view of the revenue for the same period; there was nothing consolatory there; in 1836 thev hada surplus of 1,376,0001; to 1837 there was a surplus of 1,862,000/., but in the next year there appeared to have been a very great turn in the affairs; the surplus was turned into a deficiency, which, in 1838, amounted to 428,0001. ; in 1239 it was 430,000/., but in 1840 it had risen to 1,427,0004, so that the revenue had been gradually and rapidly decreasing, while the expenditure was as steadily increasing, The deficiency, however—the permanent deficiency —was now 2,236,0001., the actual deficiency upon the year was 2,800 000/ ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman deducted 500,000/. from that sum, as he did not calculate that Canada and China would remain a permanent charge, even allowing that there was still a deficiency of 2,300,000/. Now what prospect was there that there would be no recurrence of such charges? —( Hear. I He supposed that the charge for Naples would this year be very small, but he was afraid that in the pre sent unsettled state of the world, and of our relations with many countries, we ought to prepare for a recurrence of the charges imposed upon us by Canada and China. There was still an absolute deficiency of 2,300,0001., and that but a deficiency for the present year ; only he could not resist the conclusion that the time had at length come that we ought to look for some more honest and ho nourable expedient than bolstering up:our finances by loan. After twenty-eight years of peace, it would be most unjust that we should burden our posterity with the expenses which our imprudence had brought upon the country, as probably they might not be blessed as we had been with peace for so long a period. The miserable expedient of resorting to Exchequer Bills to cover the deficiency, or the raising of leans at such a period, wouli be extremely unjust. But that must be the consequence, unless they met the case manfully and fairly by increased taxation on them selves. He did not think that the President of the Board of Trade had said much in favour of his colleague, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was a novel proposi tion to hear from the school to which he belonged, that because an article was taxed to a great amount, therefore it might be safely iecrea.ed —(A laugh.) The remainder of his speech only went to show that the reduction of Customs duties upon an article increased its consumption, and the revenue derived from it. Yet that was a speech wade in favour of increasing taxation upon all articles liable to duty. Still, in spite of those areutnents he was favourable to the proposition of the Right Hon. the Chan cellor of the Exchequer. He wished, however, that he had made some exception in favour of the raw materials of our manufactures.—(Cheers.) He knew the difficulty attending such a course, but he was rather surprised when he found that the duty on raw cotton was to be increased. ( Hear, hear.) No doubt breaking through the principle might be very inconvenient, it might lead to numerous applications of the same rule, and might lead to an insufficiency of resources to meet the expenditure ; and be thought there was such an oveibearing necessity to maintain the public faith, that ho thought the Right Hon. Gentleman was perfectly right in adhering to his principle if he entertained any fear that it would break through his plan. He might take it that one-half of the present deficit arose from the reduction of the postage.— (Loud Tory cheers.) He took that from the statement of Right Hon. Gentleman. 530,000/, was the revenue which the Chancellor of the Exchequer estimated from the Post-office. Did that include 64,000/. for the Foreign. office ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—That was entirely left out, Sir ROBERT PEEL—Still he might very fairly estimate that one-half the deficiency arose from the Post office. Ho knew all the disadvantages of reviving such a tax ; but if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had come down and said, " I find myself deficient 1,100,0001. from the Post-office, and 1,100,000/. from other sources, and in place of increasing the tax upon raw cotton, I shall pro pose a general rate of 3d. per letter," he doubted that although that plan might not have met the general con currence of the country, still, upon reflection, he thought it would have been more to the benefit of the country. From some ominous words which had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman, he was led to believe that some domestic jars had occurred in the honeymoon of the Post-office.—(A laugh.) He believed that within the last few weeks there had been a considerable falling off in the revenue of the Post-office. He believed he was deist. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—There have been fewer letters. Sir ROBERT PEEL—It did not require the talents of a Chancellor of the Exchequer to find out that if there were fewer letters there would be fewer pence. He was sorry that such should be the case, for though he might have been consistent in opposing the original plan, he had given his consent to a fair trial; but if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had proposed a general rate of 3d. he would have supported him, although he himself would not make such a proposition. With respect to 10 per cent. increase on the assessed taxes, he would not oppose it. some wished to have an increase of 30 or 40 per cent. on those taxes. It might be very fair if they could oblige men to keep up their establishments, but when they could go to another country to live, the taxation might be pressed to too great a limit, though he did not think that applied to the 10 per cent. The Hon. Member for Brid port, the leader of a large party in that House, complained that this was a tax put upon England, which did not ex tend to Ireland. Now, considering whence the Right Hon. Gentlemen obtained his support, without under-rating his public virtue, it would have been too much to have expected him to come down and say " Here is a tax upon England from which Ireland is free, lam about to pro pose an addition of 10 per cent., but in justice to both countries I think both the tax and the addition ought to be extended to Ireland" —consider ing the source of his support, it would have been too much to have expected such a proposition from him. —( Laughter.) But after all, he (Sir R. Peel) was willing to place this additional burden upon England, and let Ireland escape. The Hon. Member for Bridport and his friends would have an opportunity of making the proposi tion, but if it had come from him (Sir R. Peel) or his party then it would have been said, " We shall now see who are the real friends of Ireland." The Right Hon. Gentle man had praised the elasticity of the commerce of Eng land. In all that had been said respecting that he fully concurred, and he would hereafter take the liberty of calling his attention to that fact, that that elasticity had been shown under the existing Corn-laws. There was a true economy in main taining public credit. Look at the amount of debt on which they paid 3 par cent. Look at the satisfactory source of saving which would arise from such a state of public credit as should enable them to reduce the interest of that debt to 3 per cent., and thus sa ve m illi ons. He entreated them always to bear in mind that the result of some increase of taxation might bring about so satisfac tory a state of public credit as might enable:them so to re duce the publie burdens as to lay the foundations of real and pernTinent reductions, consistent with the honour and dignity of the country, and thus dispenee with future taxa. Mr. WARBURTON would not again have troubled the House if the Right Hon. Baronet had not suggested tan increase in the rates of postage. He had not ventured o propose a return to the old rates—(Cheers)—bat he had suggested to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he should (ripple the present rates. The Revenue at present derived f rom t h e postage was 60 per cent, upon the expenditure. Surely that was profit enough ; but the Right Hon. Baronet was not content with a profit of 60 per cent. But the question was not of Revenue—it stood upon much higher grounds—it was a question that con cerned the co m f ort o f the people.-4 Cheers.) It was de grading the question to consider it merely as a question of revenue. —(Loud cheers.) On the reduction of ,the rates on General Post letters from an average of 7d. to one of Id., the increase of the number of letters had been in the ratio of 26 to 10, an increase of 160 per cent., a n d yet the Ri g h t Hon, Gentleman was not satisfied with thes e pro fi ts. lie was not satisfied with 60 per cent., but wish , . 1 to go beyond. He hoped that no. thing would induce the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Government to depart from the boon which th3y had given to the peorle. They we re only now at the corn inencement of th e experiment. The stamps had only been introd uce d w i thin a few days. H e was perfectly satisfied with the increase which had already taken place. He had never anticipated the realization of the form er revenue under a period of three or four years, and he was satisfied from the increase which had already taken place that withi n that period the deficiency in the Post- o ffi ce revenue would be more than made up. Mr. GILLON considered that ever since the change which had taken place in the monetary system, in 1819, the funclholder had been revelling in the distress of the other classes, and that it would be abmurd to suppose that peoFle could derive any bonfit from the reduction of tax- ation until the amount of the debt were reduced. Taxa tion ought to be so shaped as to fall on the fundholder, and make him pay his share. He hoped the Hon. Mem ber for Knareaborough would press his proposition on the attention of the House. The Hon. Member for Cambridge had attacked his Hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny on the Canada question, and had said that the troubles in that country had been owing in a great measure to his Right Hon. Friend. Nothing could be further from the fact. The fact was, we had broken faith with our colonial subjects. With regard to the diminution proposed by the Right Hon. Gentlemen on carriages, he considered that it gave the smallest possible relief to the poorer classes of the country. It was so very partial that, without meaning to say anything unpleasant to the Right Hon. Gentleman, he must say that the boon was not worth accepting. He thought the persons ag grieved by this tax would come before the House another year with a better chance of obtaining a repeal of the whole duty on carriages kept for hire. The persons en gaged in keeping these carriages were paying a high duty, while railways and steam-b oa t s were not burdened with any duty at all. Sir G. CLERK would not have troubled the House at any length, after what had fallen from his Right Hon. Friends the Members for Tamworth and Cambridge, had it not been that the other night the Hon. Gentleman had obtained the appointment of a Committee to consider the whole subject of the import duties of the country. Now, as all the calculations of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had been made upon the assumption, that the whole of th e i m p ort d ut i es wou l d remain as they did at present, he should advise the Hon. Member to move that the order for that Committee be discharged, as it would relieve them from a very irksome, and, as it now turned out, a very unprofitable duty, He thought the Chancel lor of the Exchequer w,.s wrong on both sides of the ac coun—that he under-eattimated the expenditure, and over. estimated the income. He thought that the estimate laid on the table in March last, was more to be relied on than that of tonight.—( Hear, hear.) There was an error in the ordinary expenditure of the country, on which he begged to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman for an explana tion. The vote for the Navy expenses last year was 5,172,0001., but the actual expenditure was 5,472,000/. Now, he wished to know out of what fund the deficiency of 300,0001. had been made good, It appeared to him that the Navy Board must have anticipated that sum out of the grant for the present year, in which case, before the Ist day of April, the Right Hon. Gentleman would be obliged to ask for a vote of credit of that amount, for there was not the slightest chance, in the present state of our foreign relations, that there would be any reduction of the expenses of the navy in the current year. If his calculations of the other parts of the expenditure were correct, there would be a defi ciency of 600,0001. besides that sum, making in all a defi ciency of 900,0001., instead of 800/., which was the estimate of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He again begged for an explanation. Mr. BRISCOE concurred entirely in the principle of the resolution moved by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny. It was Isis opinion that property was taxed too little and industry too much.—(Cheers.) And so far was he from complaining of the amount of taxation proposed, that he thought it was not enough..—(Hear, hear.) He thought there ought to be a large surplus—he did not think that four or five millions would be too much.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) There ought to be an ample pro vision to meet the payment of the interest of the debt in case of an emergency, and to enable the country at all times to hold its place amanget nations.—( Cheers.) He thought the House ought to look the difficulties of our financial situation boldly ill the face.--( Haar, hear.) As this moment we were in a state of difficulty, and we were going to meet it by the issue of Exchequer bills to the amount of 800,000/. or 900,000/.—( Hear, hear.) That was not a state in which this nation ought to be placed.— ( Hear, hear.) It was a state in which no private indi vidual ought to place his affairs.—( Hear, hear.) As a person possessing some property, he must say he felt that he did not pay as much towards the taxation of the country as he ought to pay in proportion to the burthens of the in dustrious classes. There were two things to which he objected in the scheme of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. These were the increase of the taxes upon cotton and wool. He represented a manufacturing district, in which there was at present a great dearth of employment, and the distress would be increased by any farther tax upon the raw material. He hoped those articles would be exempted from the additional impost of 5 per cent. He also ob jected to the tax upon windows as detrimental to the health and comfort of the people. Ila thought the House ought to look more boldly at the state of the finances, and lay on a tax upon property, and make a large and permanent provision for meeting the interest of the debt, so as on all occasions to maintain the character and credit of the country.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. DARBY agreed with his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth, in regretting that the Post-office duties ought not have been increased, He thought it ought to have been raised from Id. to 2d. per letter.-- (Hear, hear.) With respect to the duty on cotton, he agreed with the Hon. Member for Westbury that it would be better not to impose it on that article. He also hoped that hops would be exempted from the increase of duty. In Sussex a great part of the agricultural population was employed in the cultivation of hops, to which the duty of 2d. per lb. was a considerable check. That duty had for some time been paid out of the capital of the grower. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that as the statement of his Right Hon. Friend had been met so fairly by the House, and as the opinion of the House had been so strongly expressed in favour of the propositions, he would not take up the time of the Committee at any length. The Right Honourable Baronet, the Member for Tam worth, had stated directly what was stated in sub stance by other Honourable Members, that he agreed in the proposition that it was now the time to meet the deficiences of the revenue by taxation, and not by loans. And, secondly, that, as to the mode of taxation, he thought it advisable, both for the sake of not increasing the estab lishments, and of avoiding interference with industry.... to increase the existing taxes. Ha (Lord John Russell) trusted that his Right Hon. Friend would be contented with the general support which he had met with, and would not endeavour to conciliate those on both sides of the House who desired the exemption of particular articles. It had been proposed by the Hon. Member for Westbury, to exempt cotton and wool, and the gentleman who had just sat down, proposed to exempt hops. If his Right Hon. Friend consented to exclude those articles from his scheme, he would find on Monday that gentleman would come down and claim the exemption of eight or ten other articles. A great many gentlemen would imi tate those who called for particular exemption, although most probably not one would imitate the example of the Hon. Member for Westbury, who stated that he was not adequately taxed, and that he considered it a reproach upon his conscience, that he did not pay enough.—( Laughter.) He hoped, therefore, that his Right Hon. Friend would adhere to his proposition. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Briscoe) was of opinion, and it seemed to be concurred in by the other side, that the increase of taxation was not sufficient, but that there ought to be an increase sufficient to cover the whole deficiency. He (Lord J. R.) thought with his Right Hon. Friend, that it was a legitimate mode of meeting a casual deficiency, to do so by means of a loan, rather than by a tax, which might not be required for more than two or three years, besides that the imposition of a new tax was likely to interfere with some department of indus try. Before the French Revolution a Bill had been passed for laying by a considerable sum for a sinking fund, and when an increased expenditure was required by the expe dition to the Northern Sound, Mr. Pitt thought it better to meet the emergency by a loan, rather than encroach upon the Sinking Fund or have recourse to a new tax. The Sinking Fund was afterwards found to be fallacious. But the precedent to which he referred was in favour of his Right Honourable Friend's proposition. He should say that the country was better after it had in creased in wealth by diminished taxation, than had they kept up the taxation and paid off certain portions of the debts. Such had been the course pursued during the last five years, and the excess of expenditure over income had only been 77,0004 They were now about to raise two millions by increased taxation, and they would place themselves in a situation to pay all the expense of the country without borrowing. With regard to the Post office, he did not at all look upon that as a question of mere revenue. He certainly heartily concurred in that measure ; but he had no strong belief in the calculations made that we should get back the amount of revenue by the increase of letters. No doubt in time there would be an increase of revenue, but it would be very small, and would not produce one million of re venue for some years to come. But if the Post office revenue should produce only 500,000/, lie should not in the least regret his concurrence in that mea ,,ure.—( Loud cheers.) He concurred in it as a mea sure which would give persons of a middling means, and even poor persons, the means of corresponding. He felt no disappointment with respect to the measure, and he would he quite ready to repeat his vote of last year. He trusted that the Hon. Member for Kilkenny having seated his views, and made his proposition, would not think it necessary to bring them to a vote upon it. Mr. GROTE would certainly support the proposition of his Hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny, for he thought it was the proper manner in which they ought to raise their revenue. He was sorry that the Right Hon. Gentleman had not thought proper to take off or reduce the Stamp Duty upon Marine Insurances, for its effect was to drive that business to foreign countries, and press very hard upon the poorer s hi powner; again it acted as a burden upo n imported goods, so that if a small increase was made to the Customs duties, that tax might be done away with very great benefit. He threw that out for the consideration of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. VILLIERS said all that had taken place in the debate showed that the time was come when we ought to come to a commutation of our taxes; therefore he was happy that his Honourable Friend had cal led the attention of the House to the subject, although only in a partial way —it must soon force itself upon the attention of the House. Ile would sup port his Hon. Friend if he went to a division. They ought to consider by what means they could increase the powers of consumption in the country. The present mode of taxation tended to limit consumption. lie could not but think that the congratulation of the Right Hon. Baronet, an d hi s giving his supp or t t o t h e present system . of Cor n -l aws was somewhat ill-placed. Was not the country in a state of suffering, and was not that suffering to be traced to the Corn Laws ?—( Hear, hear.) All the House cared for was to raise a large revenue —they cared not at wh at cost of suffsr:ng that r evenue. was raised, if it was raised, Sir R. PEEL di d not say that the Corn-laws had raised a large revenue, and that, therefore, they ought to be continued. He had merely alluded to what had fallen from the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade re lative to the buoyancy and expansiveness of national prosperity, and he had merely said this prosperity and in creased consumption had taken place concurrently with protecti on to agriculture, and he had, therefore, asked if it was prudent to do away with that protection. Mr. MUNTZ should not on this occasion support the Ministry. This was the time for the upper classes r , to show th e y h a d t h e good of the country a t . heart. !_ House w ou ld b e d o i ng t h e i r d u t y t o t h e p eo pl e if, instead of increasing the burdens which the people were hardly T. COX SAVORY'S, Goldsmith and Watchmaker, 47, Cornhill Gracechurch-*treet), London. Drawings of Cups will bo forwarded in answer to a post paid application. Vier It is desirable Letters for Drawings should mention el the si--2 or about the price of the Cup Cthat n►aY be or ups required.(Seven Doors fool , i - --- 0c SHE FFIELD MADE PLAT ED DIS K -14, VERS.—A. 13. SAVORY and SONS, Goldsmiths, 1 fa Cornhill, London, opposite the Bank of England, sat'iltiEf selection, i n t h eir show-rooms, a very large variety of •'"" Fif- FIELD SILVER-PLATED DISH COVERS, from' teen Guine as th e set ; they have sliver edges and handles, and silver shields for engraving the cr,;st or cent of arms. Double Dome Pattern. • The Melon Pattern , ~ g d. Size. .t .s. 8. Size. x 1;7 6 1 Plated Dish Covers, 20 in. 5 13 6 1 ,7-I.ted Dish Cover, 20 in. 5 14 6 1 IS in. 4 0 „ Dish Cover, 18 in. 4 76 1 „ Dish Cover, . 6 6 - 2 „ Dish Covers, 14 in. 512 0 2 „ Dish Covers,l4 111:______ Per Set...-. £l5 13 0 Plated Currie or Hash Dishes Seven Guineas the Set . . Price Current, Stamped as a Newspaper, containing drawn ~.._e and every information relative to the purchase of silver o to s ° the field plate, may be had on application, or will be sent In country, free of postage, in answer to a paid letter. WVIWIMM OIWIUMMINEWSO N Per Set ...... £ 1! 1 . 17 A —BritTrs. of Lind On the 12th i ns t ., the lady of u H. Williams, Esq. , field House, Sussex, of a son. On the 12th inst., at Plymouth, the wife of Dr. Torsikr s ' of Norton -street, Fitzroy-square, of a daughter.. On the 13th inst., Mrs. Miguel Yglesias, of Camden - st reet, Camden -to wn , o f a daughter. MARR. On the 14th i ns t., at St. Luke l ED 's, Chelsea, T. Hill, Esq ., !" f North Brixt on , t o Harriot Mackay eldest daughter of Captain 11I'Leod, of the Royal Hospital, Chelsea. On the 11th of March, at Bombay, Captain J. Davies, o f the Bombay Army, f our th s on of th e l a t e S. D av i es, o f the Elm: , Epsom, Esq., to Sarah Ann Elizabeth, second daughter of Ilarrison, Esq., R.N., late of Upmarden. On the lith inst., at Kingston-on-Thames, Mr. E. Pam philers, of the Strand, to Miss S. Br own , youngest grand daughter of the late M. R. Wheatley, of Epsom, and niece of Mrs. Fuller, of Kingston. DIRD. On the 1-Ith inst., at Lyncroft House, Lichfield, Anna Maria, wife of the Rev. H. G. Lonsdale, and daughter a the late T. F. Heywood, Esq. On the Bth inst., H. D. Stephens, Esq., Fellow of New College, Oxford, an d s t u d ent-at-law of the Inner Temple. On the 11th inst., at Upwey, Mary Charlotte, only (laughter of N. J. Trowbridge, Esq., of Weymouth, aged 21. On the 12th inst., at Holloway, Catherine, the wife of Chris— topher Gabriel, a:;cd 68. On the 9th of March!, at Calcutta, F. Ilathie, Esq„ son. of the late Rev. Ur. Ilathie, of Hammersmith. London: Printed and Published by MITIIDO YOUNG, of No. 112, Strand, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand in the county of 3litldluex. Saturday, May 16, 1640. EVENING EDITION. EVEN ING EDITION able to bear, they were to take off many of the present taxes and impose a property tax.—(Cheers.) He should, therefore, support the motion of the Hon. Member for Kil kenny. alwaysopposedborrowing. b o H r e r owing considered he the best preferred laying o il n U n M ew E ta had taxes to mode of supp or ti ng p a bli c cre di t would be, not to l ay on new taxes, but t o re d uce t h e expend i ture; an d yet, f ro m the Right Hon. B arone t not one word b ad they hear d in favour of economy. Th e Ri g h t H on. Gentleman h a d no right to say th a t t h e statement was not satisfactory, as be was the m an o f a ll ot h ers w h o h ad constantly urged on t he Government to increase the expenditure. If there were any capital iu the country untaxed they ought to tax that and relieve the poor man from the burdens imposed on him. How could the Chancellor of the Exchequer reconcile it to his conscience to tax so much of the personal pro perty of the middle and lower class millions ? The landed interest alleged themselves that they had three thousand millions invested i e land, up on w hi c h not a f art hi n g of taxation was levied.—(Laughter and cries of" Oh, oh.") ' He was speaking :of descents, for which personal pro perty was taxed 5 per cent. The amount levyable on the land of only 2 per cent. could realise between two and three millions annually—( , Divide, divide ")—there fore he wi s h e d to try t hi s b efore any other tax was l ai d on. If it proved inefficient, some other tax might be . tried. We h a d an i ncrease of one million and a h a l f since 1836—the revenue then was 46,000,0001., the pro portionate increase would have been 2,600,000/.,' instead of 1,500,0001,, and the cause of the small increase was the Corn-laws. He should take the sense of the House On his amendment.—( Cries of "Divide.") Lord INGESTRIE said he would vote for the pro posal, if the personal property was assessed to the poor-rate or the county rates, and others to which land was snbjected He agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that it was our duty fairly and promptly to meet our financial difficulties, and he was prepared to support him in his pro posals. Mr. WALLACE rose amidst great calls for a division. He said—l shall first vote for the amendment, and then I shall support the plan of the Chancellor of the Exchequer , in redemption of my pledge, to supply the deficiency in th e Post-office. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was exceedingly happy to hear that declaration of good faith. e —( Cheers.) Now, with out go i ng into the calculations 4:A the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, which he feared would be found fallacious, he objected to his amendment on principle. The Hon. Member avowed that he wished to- have the land-descent duty, because it would come greatly upon the agricultural interests. Now, on the contrary, be (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) desired to spread his l new taxation over the community, that it should not fall particnlarly on any class.—(Hear, hear.) The Bon. Member was mistaken in supposing that because the legacy duty was levied on personalty, that therefore they were no t pa id b y the landed interests to a great extent.—( Hear). hy, if the Hon. Menth2r knew as much of it as he did, he would know that to a great extent the legacy duty came from the landed inte rests.—( Hear, hear.) Now how did the deficiency arise? Partly from the Post-office change. Was that an altera tion from which:the agriculturists principally were bens' fitted ?—( Hear, hear.) Who had so clamoured for the change ? Had it not been the commercial and the mit ling classes ?---(Hear, he ar .) A ga i n, as to the 800,000. for the p a y ment o f the 200,000,00 a, of West ladl e compensation. S ure l y that was not a charge which shou ld be laid on an y p art i cular eless ?—( Hear, hear.) The House should bear in mind that on deeds the stamp duties were in a great part paid by the agriculturists and the landed interests. —( Hear.) The legacy duty was 1,724,0 001 ; e the deeds s t am p s pro d uced 1,680,00 01.—(Mr. Hume --A" deeds ? ) Yes ; but then the greater part of that sum was borne by the landed interests._( Hear, hear.) The Right No : 1 1 ; Gentleman exp resse d hi s sense of the kind manner which the House had treated him, and his firm conviction that the cou n t r y was perfectly able to meet a ll Ate exigencies.—( Cheers. ) The House divided. For the amendment 39 Against it Majority against it On the resolutions affixing 5 per cent additional upon exciseable articles being put, Captain JONES deprecated the additional duty upon spirits, so far as Irish spirits were concerned, for be thought it would lead to a return of the illicit distillation , which before had been the bane of that country. It would have the effect of putting 14 per cent. upon Irish spirits. General JOHNSON objected to impose any taxes WO the poor population ; he would greatly prefer an income tax, and, if he stood alone, he would oppose the resolution. Colonel SIBTHORP could not agree to grant any new taxes to her M a j esty ' s present Ministers.—(A laugh-) They were incapable of managing them, and he had on confidence in them, and would therefore oppose the re solution. Sir R. PEEL—The Right Hon. Gentleman said they were about to enter into a new commercial treaty wit h France—probably there would bo a reduction of the duty upon French brandy—that, coupled with the addition of 4d. per gallon on other spirits, must derange the trade. Strangers were ordered to withdraw. The House di— vided, when there appeared— For the Resolution lll Against it Majority —9B The resolution imposing 4d. additional duty upon spirits was then put. Mr. G 0 ULBURN begged it to bo perfectly under- The C HA NCELLOR of the EXCHt Q stood that by voting for the resolutions no b pledged to approve of the Bill. fully to that proposition. The resolution was then agreed to. The resolution adding 10 per cent. to the window d ut y having been proposed, Mr. FIUME said the hew • • • survey which formed part of this plan, was a direct breach of an ' agreement or pledge entered into by Lord Althorn, who said, any one existing house might open as many windows as they pleased, with out rendering themselves liable to further taxation. Mr. FINCH believed that the pledge was embodied in an Act of Parliament. did The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER not impose any new law, or repeal the clause alluded to. The resolution was then agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice that he would bring up the Report on Tuesday. Colonel SIBTH OR Pgave notice that on that occasion he would oppose it to the utmost of his power. The House then resumed, COMMERCE AND NAVIGATION. Mr. HERR IE S postponed his motion on this subject to Tuesday. The House then went into Committee pro forma, an d leave was given to bring in a Bill for an alteration in the law of Commerce and Navigation on Tuesday. COUNTY CONSTABALARY BILL. Sir E. KNATCH f3ULL opposed the House going into Committee, because he had a motion for referring the Bill to a Select Committee, which he could not then bring foward in consequence of the lateness of the hour. rid Mr. FOX MAULE said ho proposed making several amendments and he thought it best the House should go into Committee that the amendments might be printed. Mr. G. BERKELEY hoped the towns with double d rates in the counties that had adopted the Police Bill had not been overlooked. The Bill was then committed pro forma. Mr. BEE NAL brought up the Report of the Com mittee of Supply. The other Orders of the Day were then read. Mr. O'BRIEN moved—" That the names of any Me w " bers who may be desirous of giving notices of motions, shall be written upon separate slips of paper, and thrown into one of the glasses on the table on the day on which such notices arc to be given, and the Clerk shall imme& - ately upon Mr. Speaker taking the Chair draw the names out of the glass, and the names of the Members shall he placed upon the Notice Paper in the order in which they are so drawn by the Clerk ;" but the general sense of the House being against it, it was negatived. The House adjourned, at Ten minutes before One o'Clock, to Monday. tiTheilaziaes:en w sp ir i tt ds PRIZE CUPS.—Ne,,v and Second-hand SIL PRIZE CUPS are o ff ere d at very REDUCED PRICES, an d seleltion m a y b e made from a great variety, both •f Size' an d Pattlras, at I 0 I'