The Sun. — London, England, 1847-02-17 00:00:00

BIRM AND wis- areholders of ices, No. 18, !aulay, Esq., t a time bad ~ vet as the 3ee'retary had ichich it ap tree to one, , a share. It lort had been was 6,4131. iry to make app( that [eh I to cent perin tending last meet m can nned pecial m °et ision of the Ben made to le period for ,here w-a 3 no lied by .:4 01 " ;ain, and sFx, Pearson bad as a sui,er im 4 00/. per aome otzt 0 f by ,mc ring it thr it the om iO/. to vas a lt ered ; considered 1,000/., per !cl by a :large y meeti e agree meat Lt Nor ;I iera he Be,siton , Anpany to eaten. Si ons a appro v eed .0 to con.fi rra id Birzni g the S3'Blo ll ugh, to the ,amford, ; and and Lilo of Birminwit tun v from the amford, .and larbour,. ,and Birmingjiatu Jech to S ut and to. On' vithout. die uid tht usual Lm Pala em. .1d by Count ry iu W ait a horse!). acic visited lor des, Pr it'd e, e, took OA a o yester drily ient, Comut Liaronesx de Hon. C. 13• the Pe bee, 'erbeer. —JulHem. leyerbee.r. age, Rea:gm Barone inoured the evenin ecornpanleu se, and at' ilian 0 peril eaterday, St Lord John Minto, Sir the (:hau 1, Sir JohS. ;he Earl of the Right , accompo, G. H. Po; v with FAIL he Deputyr of the Ex..- of Irish this way netic and ath (Mr, th much election the same state that 7ifice they • power to viate the Lying that been used !cause he ile feeling it discus , enmity, )eople of lad been t was cal ag heard it to be I did sin !lavished poken of very un eh arges J. He ae rate id o,e, 3r Was •• - h e old e, that at the in the 842 — Lt was a rate !astle— 1 -7- THE SUN, _LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 17, 1847. that only.been once made during the course of 18 months in looarbtdisehuE.nalorni , and even that rate, by the admission of the (Lucan) had not been effectively collected. Their t e Ts would ure - :ierstand and consider whether the len gds,ovveue:ee.d bb Mr. Otway concerning this union was a whit se t h a e r di n Bu',, the Noble Earl had thought proper to blame r i r-rne nt, because the Government had not come for bad • t An case of this union and repelled the facts which he j ud 148 .. read to them. He would leave their Lordships to of o g e . °l':his after hearing the documents themselves. He was Plni'on, that if the Government had done that, they would di Conferred direct encouragement on those boards of guar "Zitr"d who were so disinclined to do their duty, and a discou ragement to all those hoards who, by some means or other, managed to raise enough to support their expenses, and to ) keep thei r h ouses full ; if Government had done so, it would have been conferring a direct premium on all such conduct as had been just represented to their Lordships. Mr. ()sway, he helieved, did no more than his duty in writing to the Poor law Commissioners as he did, and if he had not done so in such tease farsomthat o f t h e C ast l e b ar U n i on, h e wou ld no t h ave d one his r'soisy. H e (E ar l G re y) sa id h e co uld no t refrai n ,l lend from, thaehoNrotlbylecoEmarmlennetainr him ( g on an expression which had 1 Earl Fitzwilliam). He bearot her.rd the Noble Earl commence his speech, but he had ther e v had h :/I s. res comment on the number of legal processes which er - 1, issued in the west of Ireland, .and he had said that a close connexion between these processes and immi gral:ton into England. He (Earl Grey) believed there was a y e •l'Y clo se connex i on b etween t h ese processes and the immi gtali°n; he believed that a very large number of persons against Whorn processes had been issued had collected together the *lv effects which th e y h a d r emainin g , h a d s old them at what they would realise, and before these processes were perfect, had left the town of Mayo for the shores of Liverpool. The Noble -Earl (Earl liktawilliam) had said that these statements had been made with the intention to indispose the public mind of the P e ople of England against the Irish people, and to do justice to Ireland, Now, on his (Earl Grey's) part, and on the part of his No'olo Friend, a very near relation of his, be must tea's did ho not believe that statement to have been made • the Noble Earl inadvertently, he would have commented on . _`"e• expression with no small degree of indi g nation. But it °Wild be recollected that these gentlemen were responsible Us Government, and those who were also responsible for the ad 'ministration of the government of this country. The Noble :Earl had stated that the Government and those connected With it during the course of those discussions had made use of language which called in question the conduct of the landlords of Ireland. He much regretted this statement ; but if his Noble Friends had read the papers which had been presented to Parliament—if they had read the blue book which he held in his hands—if they had read the report made to the Board of Works--if they would take the trouble of reading those few - volumes, they would know that neglect of Irish interests was not one of the faults of the Government. (Hear, benr.) He was quite sure, that under the circumstances in Visich they were placed, the Irish landlords would exonerate the Government from tho censures cast upon them. But he would counsel the Irish landlords to hear the truth. However disagreeable the truth might be, yet they had better hear the truth now than some months or years hence, when it would be perfectly useless. It was plainly evident that Ireland could not remain in the same situation as she was now—dependent on the assistance of England. The Irish people must help themselves, they must put forth their powers, they must exert their energies, they must rise their powers to get out of this state of doubt, difficulty, and uncertainty. They must not depend on this country, for however strong any Government might be—and he did not care at all of what men it' might be composed—he was quite sure that public opinion on this subject would be too Strong for it, and this system must cease. He did not wish to make any attack on the landlords of Ireland, but whether there bad been a want of experience, or from what cause it might be he could not say, but from some reason or other there had been a failure on the part of the landlords of Ireland. That was the truth, of the accuracy of which he was painfully convinced, and, being convinced, he thought it was his duty to enunciate it. But at the same time he appealed to their Lordships—he ap pealed to those who had watched the progress of the debates In either House of Parliament—whether in either House any member of her Majesty's Government had used one word of censure towards Ireland without reluctance, and without ex pressing their deep regret at being compelled to use it— whether they had not gone as far as their truth and conscience would allow them, in uphohiing the right of Ireland to be relieved in such an emergency as the present ; and whether they had not gone as far as their duty te the empire at large would Permit them, in asking Parliament to be liberal and most generous at such a period,—( Hear. ) Lord MONTEAGLE said, his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) bad not said anything in the course of his address at all calcu lated to relieve the Noble and Gallant Officer opposite (Lord lAtean) from one of the most cruel and unjust charges *--whether contained in a blue book, or in proceedings e lsewhere—that it had ever been his lot to find directed against any individual ; and the Noble and Gallant Officer w ould be less than a man if he had submitted to be held up to Public obloquy and not come forward to vindicate himself in the only just and legitimate way that was open to him. He agreed with his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) that great Mcon- Venience resulted from the Members of one House referring to the debates in the other ; and when he had been exposed to a nimadversions in the other House of Parliament he had strictly adhered to this rule until the other night, when he made some reference to what had been said respecting him ; but if this usage was to be adhered to, it was requisite, when charges were to be made against a Noble Lord a Member of that House, that notice should be given to him, in order that be might be prepared to offer a defence; but if he were put upon his trial without having this opportunity offered to him, this usage could not be maintained, and the person so attacked had a perfect right to reply to imputations cast upon him, though they were made in the other House of Parliament. The Noble Lord had been held up to obloquy because he and the other guardians were unable to collect the rates ; but when he found this was the case, he came forward and, out of his private resources, supported, and still supported, the persons who in that locality stood in need of relief. Unfortunately, in this country such instances were rare, but the occasions which made them necessary, it must be admitted, were also rare. The answer of the Noble Earl to the charge of non-payment of the rate was, to his (Lord Monteagle's) mind, most satis factory, as there was not a single rate due on his property, some of the rates charged against his property not having been due by him. But the Noble Earl had also stated that ho had directed the issue of 100 dis tress warrants against defaulters in the payment of the rates, and he (Lord Monteaglo) would ask, was it not the most unpa ralleled folly, and would It not be the greatest audacity for any one to make such a statement if he himself were a defaulter ? (Hear, hear.) It had been said that the shield of the Govern ment was extended over the Irish proprietors in these reports. He did not want such a shield to be extended over them, and he denied that the Government officials were warranted in making the statements they did against the Irish landlords. He thought it was wrong in the Government to publish the statements which were to be found in the blue book laid on the table of the House, for there could be nothing more unfounded than many of them. What, for instance, could be more calumnious than to state that certain magistrates had hounded on the people to assassination ? Such a gross in justice, such an unpara ll e l ed and unprecedented a statement, had never been made in any former blue book presented to the , l i n oFse. Anoth er c h arge was made, that a certain clergyma n I the county Mayo was a firebrand. Now, this was a charge which, he contended, never should have been made in the books. C er t a i n statements had been also made with with respectto e Father M a th ew, w hi ch, he thought, would have been better had they been omitted. He thought that the Noble Earl had fully acquitted himself of the charges made against him. After a few words from the Marquis of WESTMEATH in defence of the Irish landlords, the subject dropped. FIRE AT ST. JOHN'S, NEWFOUNDLAND. Lord PORTMAN moved for copies, or extracts of corres pondence between the Secretary of State and the Governor of Newfoundland on the subject of the fire at St. John's, and the measures adopted for th e re li e f o f the sufferers ; and also soce er extracts of corr es p on d ence b etween the Secretary of State for the Home Department and the committee for raising sub scriptions for the relief of the distress occasioned by the same ire. His object in making the motion was to allay an impres• Bien that existed in some parts of England, that only one-half of the money collected under the Queen's letter had been ap propriated to the purpose for which it had been subscribed, and that the other half had been devoted to the building of churches by the Bishop of Newfoundland. The Marquis of WESTMEATH asked if it was the Pro %tient Bishop. Lord PORTMAN presumed that it was the Protestant Bishop. e Earl GREY had no o bj ect i on to produce t h e papers moved y the N o bl e L or d , and when they should be laid on the table he would see that the money had been properly expended. PORTUGUESE OFFICERS. Lord BEAUMONT gave notice that, on Thursday next, 1a .. 0 would put a question; to the Nobl e Lord the President of Pthe Council respecting the officers of the insurgent army in ortugal, who hag lat e ly surren d ere d t h emse l ves at T orres Bras to the forces of the Queen. MINISTERS' MONEY. Gear Lord MONTEAGLE presented a p e titi on f rom S t. ge's Limerick, against Ministers' money. Also petit on from the town council of Limerick against light dues. a B REWING FROM SUGAR BILL AND DISTILLING FROM SUGAR BILL. The Earl of CLARENDON, in moving the second reading of these Bills, said that the first Bill had come up on Thursday last, and the second had been just received, but as they were similar in their character and provisions, he thought it would be expedient that they should be both taken together and read pro fornui and that the discu ss i on on t h em should be taken in dommlttee. To consult the convenience, therefore, of their Lordships, he should abstain at present from entering into any statement with re spect to them ; but he might observe, that they would be an act of justice to their West Indian colonies, and would not be productive of injury either to the revenue or the agricultural interest. At the present time of scarcity and of high prices, he thought they would not be wholly inoperative in alleviating the great distress which prevailed throughout the country. He would now move that the Brewing from Sugar Bill be read a second time. Lord STANLEY observed, that his Noble Friend was quite correct in stating that no discussion should take place on these Bills at this state ; but, at the same time, he thought that the Noble Earl would not hays abstained from stating what the grounds were en which it was proposed to make these permaaent instead of temporary measures. These measures were introduced under the cover of being temporary. These were Bills which might affect materially this country as well as the colonies, and which, consequently, would affect very important interests. When these measures were brought forward, not as temporary, but as permanents they ought to look most carefully into all the details and figures. Unless her Majesty's Government should consent to refer these Bills to a Select Committee of that House, he gave notice that he would move that these Bills be referred to a Select Committee of that House. Lord MONTEAGLE considered that all the Bills con nected with the subject should be read together. The Earl of CLARENDON was ready to give his Noble Friend the reasons which had induced the Government to in troduce Bills of a permanent character. A pledge had been Riven in the course of last session on this question which could tint consistently be receded from. With respect to the course proposed to be adopted by his Noble Friend opposite, that th ese Bills should be referred to a Select Com mittee he could assure the Noble Lord that there was nothing ' complicated, b ut, on th e con t rary , what was most simple in the details of t h ese Bill s . Th ey h a d alre a d y passed through the other HOUR', and even those op• posed to the Bills did not object to the principle upon which th ey were based. His N o bl e F r i en d opposite had stated that ist was not hi s i ntent i on to create de l ay. yet h e mus t sa y that u elay would be created if those Bills were referred to a Select Committee. If the principle of that motion were agreed to, there was no Bill involving fiscal or commercial details that b!night not b e su bj ected to delay. He therefore felt himself odimd, on the part o f h er M a j esty ' s g overnmen t, to n resist the motion of the N o bl e L or d. Wi t h respect to w h a t t , „ been said r es p ect i ng t h e Bill re l at i ng to the duty on rum, -„?.- . r.e had be en seine d e l ay, which could pot be avoided. His t that Hon. F r i en d t h e Chancellor of the Exchequer, to whom speaking ye s t er d a y on th e quest i on, was of opinion , hat Bill should be read first: L il ST A NLEY, when be used the t erm cover, did not al t , ~ a ei tvnat he had sa id i n any offensive sense. Th e ground on til this measure had been brought forward not nix) was bee n any pledge of the House that had giv n en to relieve immediate distress; it was distin referred to in the Speech of her Alajestv as one of thos e etl Y the di measures to be introduced for the purpose of relieving 44 grese that prevailed. After a few words from Earl GREY, the two Bills were read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday. THE DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) BILL. This Bill went through Committee, and was ordered to be reported on Thursday next. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 16. MODE OF PUNISHMENT ADOPTED BY THE BOARD OF WORKS IN IRELAND. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he must trespass for a few moments upon the attention of the House, while he made an explanation in reference to a statement he made the other night. On Friday night last he stated, upon the authority of a gentleman well versed in such matters, that only from twenty to thirty men per mile were employed in the construction of a railway, and therefore that only 25 per cent. of the actual cost was expended in labour. Last night the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury said that he had mistaken the meaning of his informant, and he (the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury) had had a communication with: him, who stated he meant there were only 25 labourers per mile permanently employed upon a railway. This morning he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had re ceived a letter from the gentleman who supplied him with the information ; and, with the permission of the House, he ould read a portion of it. The first paragraph was this : Of the total cost of railways, 25 per cent. is the outside of what is spent upon the ground in labour. I find, from a large number of results, that the average number of labourers em ployed in the construction of a railway of ordinary character, may be taken at from twenty to thirty men per mile for a pe riod of three years." Now, when he addressed the House he did not say that twenty-five men was the number employed; on the contrary, he took the maximum number, thirty, and then, assuming the quantity of work to be contracted at 1,500 miles, as stated by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, that would give employment to 45,000 men, that was a t the rate of thirty men per mile, not twenty-five, as stated by the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury then went on to say that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had misconceived the informetion which he had received. He held in his hand a letter from the same gentleman whose information he quoted on Friday last. and which he received this morning, written since the delivery of the speech of the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury last night, in which he stated, " I never called upon Mr. Disraeli, or spoke to him, or communicated with him in any way.—(Laughter.) My information to you was fact." Ile (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) hail no business to state anything more upon this subject, but he thought upon the authority of the extracts which he had read that it would be evident to the House that the p e.son from whom he derived his information did not in any way communicate with the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury; secondly, that he did not say that he (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) was mistaken as to the information he had given to the House ; thirdly, that he did not incor rectly state the information which ho had received; lastly, that nu Information was given to me by that gentlemas whose name if I were to mention would be considered by Hon. Members as a most competent authority, had been dis proved. He did not believe that the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury would, any more than he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), state anything to the House which he did not believe to be strictly true ; he believed him perfectly incapable of so doing. After those statements he thought it was evident that the Hon. Member had been misled or imposed upon, and if he would forgive him making a suggestion to the Hon. Member, he would advise him not to make any statements to the House upon which he could not most correctly rely, and the truth of which he had not most carefully sifted. By acting otherwise the Hon. Member tended to invalidate not only such statements as those he made to the House last night, but also to detract from the weight of ether statements which he might make to the House.— (Hear, hear.) Mr. DISR AELI could assure the Right Hon. Gentle man that if he used any expression in the course of the debate which might have caused him any annoyance, he ex tremely regretted it. He felt that respect for the Right lion. Gentleman which was always due to his position, his talents, and his abilities.—( Hear, hear.) lie thought, however, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had wrongly stated the question before the House. What he (Mr. Disraeli) said to the House was, that a gentleman of great experience in the management of railways, and well known in the scientific world, had sup posed, in consequence of the speech of the Right Ho nourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the information he had given him had been misunderstood, He had reason to believe that he was the person referred to by the Right Honourable Gentleman, and lamented that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should have fallen into such a mistake. The whole misunder standing arose from the use of anonymous letters. Had the Right Hon. Gentleman mentioned the name of his informant, there could have been no possible mistake upon the subject. He did not say that he had seen the individual to whom the Right Hon. Gentleman referred, but that he had seen an individual who believed himself to be the person referred to. He was authorised to name the person to whom he alluded, but he did not think it fair to do so, especially as the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was present during the interview. Mr. COLLETT said that he would not interfere with the privilege of the Member for Wycombe, but that he hoped to be fortunate enough to catch the eye of the Speaker before the close of the debate.. He thanked her Majesty's Govern ment for the course eney had pursued with respect to the public works. It had answered in every instance, and men who had left the country were new enabled to come back with out the fear of being shot at. Lord CLEMENTS wished to put a question to the:Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Right Hon. Gentleman in his speech the other night had stated that the landlords in some parts of Ireland were pur suing a system of ejectment by means of processes for rent to an exent never before known. In one quarter sessions he had said that 6,400 processes, had been entered, so that 4,000 were issued by the landlords for rent. He was quite were that the Right Hon. Gentleman would not wish to make any misstatement with regard to these processes, and he ( Lord Clements), therefore, wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman from what source he derived his information ? The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER said that he made the statement on the authority of a person who had been in Mayo and through pu-t of Galway, and who had made the communication to the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland. If the Noble Load wished to ascertain the number of these processes there would not be the least difficulty in moving for a return of them. IRISH RAILWAY lIILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE. The order of the day- for the adjourned debate was then read. Mr. B. OSBORNE !said, in rising to address the House he would endeavour to condemie his observations as far as the nature of the subject wou Id admit. He quite agreed with what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, th at they should steer clear of all party policy or political c:tvasideration in discussing this ques tion, so important to the - interests of Ireland as well as the in terests of this country. fie for one never could admit that there was any distinction. between the interests of England and those of Ireland, as that which had a tendency to benefit Ireland also benefited this country.—( Ilear, hear.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman th e Chancellor of the Exchequer had fallen into the very error himself of which ho warned other Hon. Members. He had expressed himself dissatisfied with the names of the Noble r...ord and the two Hon. Members on the back of the Bill. Now he ( Mr. B. Osborne) must say that whatever difference of opinion he might have with the Noble Lord the Member- for Lynn, or the other two Hon. Members, he felt certain, that on the present occasion they were sincerely desirous of benefiting Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) This was no party question,, and much as he admired the ability of the Hon. Member for M ayo (Mr. D. Browne), he could not see what connexion there was between the earthwork of rail ways and the extension of the franchise, or that the principle of laying down railways •would have an effect on the Irish Church.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member might as well talk of the advantages that would result from a Conservative engineer, or a Protestant starveyor.—(Hear, hear.) In history he recollected a circumstance equally reasonable. It was also during a period of famine., During the great fire of London, when the metropolis was suffering from famine and distress, the people of Ireland sent over 20,000 fat cattle ; but the historian said, that so high did pa rty spi sit run, and so bigoted were the citizens of London, though ma•ay of them were famishing, they refused to taste the beef bees ,use they were Popish bullocks.-- ( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But they were so far improved, that none objected to the present scheme, because the Noble Lord who proposed it was a supporter of the Esta blished Church.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. B. Osborne) regretted that the Noble- - Lord the Member for the city of London had not only oppc;a ad the Bill, but held out no hope that a measure for railways in Ireland would be introduced in the present session. He ( - 11 Ir. B. Osborne) lamented that inti mation, but having heard it_ he was bound to recotd his vote in favour of the Noble Lard the Member for Lynn. While he gave his support to the prim ciple of the Bill, he did not pledge himself to do so in its details ; for when the Noble Lord spoke of 16,000,0001., he thought that he would have rendered him self more popular if he had msntioned a somewhat lesser sum. He would not give his a upport to the measure on the ground assigned by the Him . Member for Kilkenny (Mr. John O'Connell), who was indi ff. !rent as to the nature of the works so long as a large sum of money were transmitted to Ireland. He (Mr. Osborne) would not give the measure his support on that ground, but he belie :red That the measure of the Noble Lord contemplated profit; able works, on which English capital might be safely invested. 'He could not help observing that Hon. Members who l e ~ o , n on th th is s s q a u m estion a t ppea h red not to h a v listened r to to h tl a ie ve s p e e Z. n 1 looked at th e e 'i deate in y th l e r. n v e i = news papers, for they brought fors rard the same fallacies which theon C th h e an fi c r e s n t or es re n n f inf he Exchequer,Righ Honourable o u w r h a i b e l h e were wee Gentleman ur ged afterwards so triurap hantly exploded and by Honourable no nu ß rr a i a g bb h ii ec t Honourable the Lord 111.i r y e t w w sb o ti f r - y Y . York k The Right tiler had alleged that on p ly eh t , w ie 'e d nty i . tbc Friend c h a t n h c e el lli o e r m of be t r he fe E r . S c h he ; five per cent. of the gross outlay would be ex labour, whereas it had been proved that from .n sixty to seventy per co .nt. would be so expended. It had also been said that it w as not right to interfere with pri vate speculation. As appli ed. to England, no doubt that doe. trine was good, but it was entirely different when introduced into Ireland. The Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests a few years ago was of this opinion, and if he was not mistaken, the position the Noble Lord then took was supported by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Member for Portsmouth—nay, the Matte r Hon. Gentleman went so far as to say that he was perfectly .astounded at the statement of the Hon. Member for Tamwo: rth, that it would be unwise to interfere with private speculation in Ireland. He came now to the principal -objection of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, namely, thsit h e was unwilling that the State should become a great money—lender, He considered that it would be mach better that• the State should be so, than become a profligate spendthrift, disposing of the money of the country in the highways awl But what had been the policy o f t h e State ? Wi,y, always that of a money lender. He would men ti on a fact which could not be too often impressed upon thelfoust •, that since the union eighteen millions had been lent to E ngl and an d S co tl an d, ou t o f which ' only six milli ons h a d b ees r. _pal d, whil s t w i t hi n t h e same per i o d nine millions h a d b een le at •t 4) Ireland, nut of which seven millionsg to the beensham shame e eo p f a w i d ot e ( c o o , tt i: k o t r . ? es, That was an account refer to a t e h re e tiht o o n f . l N re ie la m n b d e . r for m o old n.tro n s ow n t d ire gr s e ta a t t e ly me tu nts th o e f :tie hard and he thought that the Hon. Gentleman was a li ; its his observations with re gard to Irish proprietors, a.: irs dlideoidng he obje c t e d t o I re l an d' s drew an inf e r ence w hi c h h e e getting certainly ing ny not money warranted; unlessSt atlan got some al so . N ow h e ( Mr. Hume) should have recullected that Scotland got a very fair share of public mone:e. She got upwards of a million of n( e o d proprietor likewise." money fur a rtheemnCaplaerti%ionn be cotch l a d nd ian i hear. ) He drew moreover, and the Irish, bidding t' ae latt er t o Now, he would ask, did he know what ,t the Irish landlords were doing. One en Noble Lord i n the n n t t y,f(rNbourer iroal.teirn fthsredp, o w re i h th as a e n o i f n l c n o d m ia c n o m f 2e al, and w as a y s c e a tn r, p h lo a yn had spent pe ever Y county upon his estates, and ever .y other proprietor in the co imitating his example ; and he knew that the ladi es of Ireland were were selling their jewels and disposing of their jointur es , •' order to alleviate the dis t xess. He did not allude t o those who u his were laying down their carriages, and diminishing their ex penditures, because 30, was what ought to be dune by every one wh's hail a heart to feel, but it was not just • to hear the Honourable Member thank his God that h e was not the public sinner.—( Hear, hear.) There was the Marquis of Waterford, whose name was never heard but in as ;ass ciation with works of charity. What was the reason that the., 'Scotch proprietors availed themselves of the Drainage Act, while the Irish proprietors did not? The Act was so drawn up, that it was impossible for any of them to take advantage of it. Whilst he was on the subject of Scot land, he would state that there was a time when the inhabitants of Paisley—he would not use the term used by another Hon. Gentleman, and say that they came yelling for money—but he would say that they were in great distress, and came to the House for a vote of money. Who were the people who supported them on that occasion ? Why, the Irish Members. An Honourable Gentleman, the other evening, in making his first attempt in that House, had stigmatised the Bill Of the Noble Lord as an unusual mea sure, and in his argument he confined himself to the immoral tendency of railways. He said that Irish railways were ali bubble transactions. If he held any shares in the Kingstown Railway—which it was clear he did not—and had been in the habit of receiving the dividend, he would have been slower to perceive their immoral tendency, or their ruinous character. The Hon. Member for Sunderland had stated that the English capitalists refused to embark their capital in Irish railways, but that was because they had no security for their completion, and if the Government would once assist them, the English capitalists would be the first to come forward. It was not till last week that a grant was made for this railway, amount ing to 78,000/., and it was stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that Mr. Saunders, the secretary to the company, wrote to him, objecting to employ the paupers on the railway. From a letter he had re ceived a few days since from one of the directors of the company, he found that one provision of the grant was that the able-bodied paupers should be employed by task-work to perform the earthwork of the railway. No notice had been taken of the numerous presentments made to the Exche quer by the barony over which he had the honour to preside ; and after a period of four months, the Government had adopted the principle of the soup kitchens, a hint which they took from. that admirable body of men, the Quakers. He did not believe that such benefits would result from this soup measure as were anticipated by the Government. There was no work for the people of Ireland, and the Government ought to establish some system of public works by which the people could obtain provisions. He objected to giving relief e to w t a h s e se p r e r o y the statements made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of b th y e th P e en l landlords of o o d f e th o a f t Ireland by p n le ot of to Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place. An Hone. MEMBER—He is unwell. Mr. B. OSBORNE—He was still more sorry to hear that intelligence, but he did not wonder at it, after the monstrous statements he had made.—(Laughter.) That Right Hon. Gentleman had been also most grossly misled upon the subject of the immense number of ejectments served in the county of Galway. He had received a letter from the lieutenant of the county, stating that there was no authority for any such assertion. He thought that the Government was most seriously to blame in not calling the House together at an earlier period. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury - had so attacked and refuted the arguments of the three Chancellors of the Exchequer, that it would be cruel to torture them any more. The Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the other side (Mr. Goulburn) had said that it was a most injurious thing to raise a loan in a time of peace. Why, was not the present a most pressing emergency, even more severe than the devastations of war ? Besides, was it not more rational to employ the public money for public purposes, than in improving the private estates of the landlords by grants for drainage ?—(Cheers. In the vote he was about to give, he did not. feel the mis givings of some Hon. Members, that, if the measure were car ried, the Government would resign. It was nothing more than a mere threat—the Government would not resign. Govern ments often take leave but always seem loath to depart, and the threat was nothing more than a mere crack of the whip for the purpose of bringing up the Whig recussants, who could not be brought to vote except under a threat of resignation.— (Cheers.) He called upon the House not to make the present a party question ; but because he considered the sufferings and distress of Ireland as of greater importance than keeping in a mere Whig Ministry, he should give his most cordial support to the measure of the Noble Lord.—(Cheers.) Colonel CONNOLLY congratulated the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn for the very able and statesmanlike manner in which he had brought the measure under the consideration of the House. He would have no hesitation in saying, that in comparison with the measure brought in by the Govern ment for the relief of Ireland, the Bill of the Noble Lord was perfection itself, and, inasmuch as he (Colonel Connolly) preferred a permanent to a temporary measure, bor rowing, and begging, he would give his most strenuous support to the measure before the House. (Cheers.) He said he had communicated the statement which he had just made respecting the market of Enniskillen, that the re turns in the one year had been 58,000/., and the next year it had amounted to 99,0001. ; and, in addition, the amount of the population of the town itself. He would not at present, remark further upon Enniskillen, for he would return to it; but from the fact which he had just stated, he passed imme diately to the Ulster Canal, which was the more immediate subject of consideration, and he begged to ask the house, after having heard of so great a difference as that between 58,000/. and 99,0001., they were prepared to say the Ulster Canal would not ultimately prove remunerative, if only time had been given to improve the traffie, and bring out its pro ductiveness? Again he said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, attempting to disparage the project of the Noble Lord, had stated that much the greater part of the project had been pro posed to be carried out as a matter of private enterprise, and he said that it was proposed to do that at a cost of only 5,000,0001. instead of 16,000,000/., the sum asked for by the Noble Lord. But he (Colonel Connolly) had no doubt that by stating that sum the Noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck) had given himself ample margin, and unwilling to stand at all in his own light, or to meet unnecessarily the amount of public obloquy which would be raised if the smallest part of his plan were not realised, had named such a sum as he was quite sure would bring the whole project, in all its details, to perfect completion. But when the Chancellor of the Exchequer com pared the 5,000,0001. with the 16,000,0001., it was strange that, during the course of the discussion, some had entirely overlooked so rernarka'sle a fact, which had been quite forgotten, that the project of the Noble Lord had been proposed to be carried out by private capital and enter prise, and that these very persons, as soon as they received the encouragement of the Government, would come to the rescue and effectually carry it out. Too much, he thought, had been made of the withdrawal of those persons for the present from the execution of the works. The House knew well the position in which those persons were—that they were entangled with the difficulties which became general, owing to the un happy state of the money-market. He trusted, however, that they would be able soon to recover themselves, and ho thought the fact that those persons had subscribed for the construction of railways some 5,000,0001., a fact which had been. used against the Noble Lord's measure, on the contrary made for that measure, and showed that the moment that Government would sanction the raising of 16,000,0001., those persons would certainly come to the rescue, and make good the effectual realisation of the project. He was sorrry to say that it was the unfortunate condition of Ireland,that the attempt to introduce English capital into that country had, left them worse than they were before ; for it had induced a reckless expenditure of money while the spirit of speculation existed, but the money-market became deranged, and this attempt had ended and left them worse than when it began. It had been said, however, that the pro ject had been brought out only to serve the purposes of the railroad speculators, and not to feed the people of Ireland ; but that was an imputation which, as an Irish Member, not think ing it ever would have been made, but now that it had been made, would repel with the utmost real. He thought it was much to the credit of the good judgment displayed by the Noble Lord, when, without any Irishmen in his councils, he had brought out so splendid a project. He (Col. Connolly) did not like to say any more in the presence of the Noble Lord himself, or even so much, but eulogium had become very customary in that House, and the Noble Lord would get used to it.—( Laughter.) It had again been stated that the construction of the railways in the east of Ireland, instead of relieving the Irish people, had actually been a source of poverty to them. Now he did not hesitate to give it hi , positive denial. He had full opportunity of seeing the operation of railways in Ireland, for his window looked out on two railroads, which ran some ten or twelve miles from Dublin. Now although these railways ran through four parishes, there had yet been no presentment for their con struction at the sessions, and all that he as an individual had been called upon to pay, was only 101., to keep down the markets. The House now, then, had two sets of measures be fore them, and it would be for them to givethe preference ; but he asked them whether they were prepared to prefer the mea sures of the Government, which, he could not say, would pre serve life, but rather leave them to die by degrees—measures which certainly would not de more than keep them in a mere state of existence—or the measure of the Noble Lord, which offered labour and honest remuneration to the starving people, which would give them due support, and would restore them al most to their former position within a reasonable time ? The latter measure—that proposed by the Noble Lord— offered not merely a miserable support till August, o‘• autumn next, but labour and remuneration for the next four years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken slightingly of the productiveness of Irish railways. Now he could tell the Right Honourable Gentleman, that before the present session he had come along the course of the Mullin gar line, which was a prolongation of two of the best and great trunk lines in Ireland. He was well acquainted with the course of that line, and the course of some of the others, and he was strongly impressed with the productive nature of those lines as soon as they should be completed, and it was on that ground that he begged the Noble Lord at the head of the Goverment to hand over the money asked for under the Government measures to the Noble Lord who had brought in the present mpaartrp It hard 11Pen seated, however, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the people or tremed ere.e not fitted to carry on the works on railways; but he begged to state, in contradiction to that, on the credit of a document published by Sir John Maeneil, where he stated that the people were hard set the first week to earn their wages; the second they could do it tolerably ; and the third week they were ambitious of taking task-work, and showed no small amount of cupidity. He said there was one great system of railways projected onwards to Cork, and had been construeted to Carlow. It was of no use to compare the remunerations of that railroad with the London and Birmingham Railway. end,wWi t h h y, there and nda rge were a about g a ptthe en b st o ah u me t e t xiednt middle i l t e a const ructed s dweasaitm t impossible oe s s bt other it ee f rt that tt rtsehumec such i ty, a e r n a u il t w h a e y pay. just He advert thought sborty thatto theone would Ireland—to desideratum t the in e Ireland was a li ne o f ra il road between Dublin an d B e lf ast. railway b e t ween D erry and Enniskillen. There were some ten miles of rail laid down, all the land had been bargained for, some of it paid for, but it was still h it unmade; and the question seemed to be in th a t House whether et was fieldthese of enterprise d e encouraged in their usefu s efforts the tz benefit the population. He looked upon these railways capital into Ireland. Th ere there was a starving p o p u l at i on who esweretm means of introducing eager f.r em em ployment. The Noble Lord's Bill would not only finish the railways already in progress, but create cabers which were al most imperatively demanded, and that not at the cost of th public. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had admitted tha the western part of Ireland had been very much neglected On the coast of Galway the *Ca was teeming with fish, for which there was no market, while it was notorious that fish bought in Galway on the Monday could he dressed and upon the table in the afternoon of Tuesday in Liverpool. If there were proper roads in Ireland, there would be abundance of commerce to carry upon them. In Donegal there was a salmon fishery, from which one hundred tens of salmon was taken every year; and fee was an undoubted feet, that trade in salmon had been doubled from the simple cir cumstance of there being a railway between Liverpool and Birmingham.—( Hear, hear.) These was not an inch of ground between Dublin and Galverey, orld not the other places mentioned in the Bill, which N wonderfully was '7:Lord if it benefited by the measure of the carried nt • • betwe en them. He had no of a means of communication • cr would stimulate the hesitation in saying that notinne, the establishment of out; the people were starving at each of these places for prosperity of Ireland more than markets —which were a necessare c onsequence of wood h was scarcely a limit which could be put on the benefi ere cial effects of the pro , roads. Markets would stimulate the c onsnmptism of manufac ' tures ; and thus they would find tha t there , posal of th e N o bl e L o rd. He had heart 1 it said that this was mid say to the Noble the time to re gen erate Ireland. He w' was the time to Lord th e M em b er f or L on d on , that it re generate Ireland, and the present Bill .as the very measure Captain LA Y 'OM said that every by which it was to be effected.—( Hear. ) Member who N;g. an Irish represesitative would not fail in a reeiing of Jour He considered gratitude to the Noble Member for LI ' , ln. that a system of railways would c onfer great good upon Ire land, but he did not see from when ,eo the . money was to come .; Where would they find such an enc qatons um as 16,000,0 0 0/.. H on. He was content to support the measures of the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), because he believed he would not turn tail in this emergency, but do his best to promote the welfare of Ireland. The late Government, and those who supported that Government, professed themselves anxious to befriend Ireland, but the Noble Lord at the head of the Government had proposed and expressed himself desirous to carry out others in a similar spirit. There were upwards of a million horses in this country who were fed with corn, but he saw no reason why these horses, but more especially those connected with the army, should not be put on a smaller allowance. If this were done three millions of people would have food for seven or eight months of the year. Many impu tations had b •en cast ou the characters of Irish landlords during the debate, but many of them were spending immense sums of m one y, w i t h t h e view - of providing food for the people. He read a letter from a gentleman in the Queen's county, stating that the resident gentlemen and others had come forward in a princely manner to relieve their suffering countrymen, and that the owners of the soil, who were in that part absentees, had contributed but a trifling portion of that sum. He was well acquainted with Ireland, and his ex perience led him to form the opinion that a more stringent poor-law was required, which would throw the support of the poor upon the owners of the sail and others, who were in a condition to pay their quota towards their support of the poor. He felt proud, as an Englishman, at the noble exertions which had been made in England for the relief of the distress in Ireland. To show that the Irish are good workers, and could not only rely, when supplied with proper work, on their own exertions, but aid their relatives at home, he read a letter from a gentleman in New York, stating that during a short period—since November last—the labouring Irish of that city had remitted to their relatives in this country 600,000 dollars, or 130,0001. sterling. It was an exciting period, rtiosion but theyot,eN must their free and calm jud gment . H e cou ld n ot support the pro oblenot allow that excitement to prevent Lord. Sir J, WALSH had been an attentive observer of these debates, and had gathered from the speeches of Irish Members of all parties, and from all parts of Ireland, that the Irish people looked upon the measure in a kindly spirit, and that it would do much to relieve their sufferings. He thought that in the course of the present debate many of the arguments of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been entirely demolished. All the objections he had urged against the measure had been com pletely disposed of. But before going into the merits of the question, he ( Sir J. Walsh) would remark that it seemed to be the general impression that the potato crop was not only destroyed, but that there existed no probability of its being perpetuated. He regretted to hear this, and hoped that such would not be the case ; for he could not agree with the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that such would eventually result to the benefit and improvement of Ireland. However much he might admire the tone and spirit of the Right Honourable Gentleman's address, he could not agree with him in the opinions he had expressed on this subject. He was quite persuaded that if the potato crop was permanently destroyed, there would be the greater suffering and distress, and that it would be perfectly impossible for the poorer class of occupiers to maintain their position in the country. A great deal had also been said respecting a poor.law for Ireland, but he felt sure that if such a poor-law was carried into effect as many advocated, the whole capital of the country would be swallowed up. The property of the country would be borne down by the burden, while the small farmers would themselves be the greatest sufferers. Again, the cultivation of the waste lands had been recommended% as a panacea. Now he was firmly persuaded that this scheme was one of the wildest imaginable, and would prove itself anything but adequate for the evils of Ireland. The reclamation of waste lands required two things—time and capital—whereas the condition of Ireland wanted prompt and active remedies. Emigration had also been referred to, and he much re. gretted that the Government had net brought forward a com prehensive scheme as an auxiliary to the other measures they had introduced for the benefit of Ireland. He knew o I one noble proprietor who had an agent in Canada to assist all parties who arrived in the colony from his estates in Ireland, and assisted them in locating themselves in the colony. The emigrants, in consequence, found themselves among friends as soon as they got there. Such a system of colonisation might be extended under the direction and control of the Government. —( Hear. ) With regard to the present measure, he believed it would awaken the latent energies of the country, and therefore it had his most cordial support. He would not speak of its advantages in opening up mines of wealth, in accommodating the fishing on the west of Ireland, or in carrying fuel and other produce all over the country ; but he would say that they would be mach to blame if they neglected to introduce into Ireland one of the greatest means of improvement and human elevation ever in vented by the genius of man.—(Hear, hear.) He had no de sire to go into the details of the question after the very able speech ed. follow, and the pickH Hon. Member some f ae f t o s r w Shrewsbury,but le left stilltinht mightuntouched. In doing so, he could not do bet ter than to refer to a re p ort of Sir John Macniel, the eminent engineer, made to the share holders of the Great Southern and Western Railway in Sep tember, 1845. ( The lion. Member here read an extract from the report in qtestion, stating that, for a considerable time, there had been a great number of labourers employed under him, and that every one was satisfied ; they conducted themselves in the most exemplary manner ; had all been unskilled labourers, and that throughout the district through which the line passed there was no one unemployed. ) By another report made by the smile engineer in the March following, it speared that there were 25,000 labourers em ployed, all Irishmen, in the district, and the same beneficial results were in operation. Another objection which he heard urged by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was, that it would be an injustice to other railways. The Chancellor of the Ex chequer read a letter from a correspondent of his, and indeed all his correspondents appeared to be anonymous, stating that it would be an act of madness on the part of the Government to encourage all the railways projected in Ireland. It was quite clear that railways already established gained enormously by the extension of the railway system, and hecould mention many cases in which railways would be benefited by the formation of other lines. Neither could it be said that the English railways would be injured by this measure, for many of the English lines would be immense gainers by the extension of the rail way system in Ireland. His Right Hon. Friend had urged that private enterprise ought to carry out these railways, and he was willing to admit that the carrying out of these immense undertakings by private enterprise was a great proof of the healthy and civilised state of the country. But his Right lion. Friend might push his argument too far, and say that these railways ought not to be carried out by any other means. That was not so. Let them look at the Russian railway from Petersburah to Odessa, which was carried out by the Govern ment, and no ono could deny that that line would be of im mense benefit to the country ; and simi lar circumstances existed in France. He could mention many other instances, but he was not willing to occupy the time of the House by Lord was chiefly a financial one, but he thou g ht that was an objection which must really rest upon t he urgency of the neces sity. The Noble Lord had also said th at English funds would the i blye entering upon them at present. The objection of t not bear this great call upon it, and ther e could be no argument fact. If adduced on the subject which was less fou nded u p on they could convince the House that the advance was necessary, eould any man doubt the capability ' ' sum ? He did not furnish this comparatively trifling itself, but only under stand the Government to object to the advance ._ .s in to the security for repayment. Let them see if the railwa l ) t Ireland would give a proper security for the payment.that there of the English nation to ap peared from an extract from the railway returns thDublin and were four railways in operation in Ireland — Kingstown, the Ulster Railway, the Western. Drogheda, and the Great Southern and the Ulster The Dublin and Kingstown paid 9 per cent. ; ; Railway paid 51. 10s. per cent. on the share capitaltai, the Dublin and Drogheda paid 31. 14s. on the share c_ pi ndaWes although not completed ; and the Great Northern a 1,0001. t_s_ ' Dublin and tern, which was only opened since August last, paid per week, and, deducting 4001. per week for workingln ex penses, that would give 31,2001. per annum. The the Noble the line was 56 miles, and if that, according to Lord, were to cost 16,000/. per mile, that would give 904,0001. The two-thirds of that would equal 602,0001., t• would be and the interest at three and. a half per cell- e .. as a 21,0931. ; and so they would have a revenue of 31,00 W se. length of security for 21,0001. per annum. Was not that a proper curity for the money to be advanced? And let them u remem ber that the last railway was only open a few month s, too , a . n v d _ very imperfectly developed. He felt himself forced e l ° of calcu lated above all others to give relief to the present distresses Ireland. his vote for his Noble Friend, for the measure was one Mr. V. STEWART said, that whatever Lord would opinion on this measure, he trusted that the Nobblee He net consider him less grateful than he s hould He thought (the Noble Lord) had already done for Ireland. 16,000,00 w , that on such a measure, involving so large a sum as a responsible brought forward by the Noble Lord, and not by adduced to war- Government, sufficient argument had not been Noble Lord deserved rant its adoption. He thought that the sure before the the greatest credit for bringing such al might be his do as he was then have tendered it to the Government, and n He had not made up doing, force it upon their consideration. was suffering as it his mind, however, that while his counts the one which the then was from famine, this measure was miseries. , Ile railways country, but he thought that the Nob e o ln le t e o a rd ought only to House could best adept to alleviate its mis o er the people on three must certainly give general employment t which would slop, there would be large portions of the w c as quite aware that not be benefited by it. Although 12 t e iro.„, Stitt they must everybody must be anxious to benefit a state of greater difficulty necessarily 1 P.... the Government in e• o f a loan of 16,000,000/. by encumbering them with the r aisin ato step forward, and not miles on each side of their course, but eveononwti:yh that affinis- That was the moment for any one lie wished to say nothing Government would not sanction.. Ireland. If they could be against the formation of railways h i o n n eht they would be of great formed by the Government, be a h had taken a great part in the interfere by forcing them to adopt me advantage to the country, for Goveroment would give that Limerick Railway ; and if the of a_sures which a responsible could in carrying out aidgreat benefit, but then the counties ought to reader w this design. had never felt greater pain in giving Sir 11. W. BARRON , assistance, he felt it w ould h h at e but he fe t so com 1 . d nt occasion, p icate a vote than on the prese . vete engagements, that he could by his public and byhhiisse private 0 thence to vote against the promo not bring his mind or Ireland. Let him not be misunder tion of railways ina single share, or had the not r ehee points n d ts given which hi c h stood, for he heldd railways, but yet he was con vincedslightest interest in plan which would be so likely to they that there was no promote he had been one of a deputation who waited rail ways. Last year Baronet opposite (Sir Robert Peel), at upon the Right Hen. . nster was the head, to put this measure the interests of that country as the formation of which the Duke of Lei embodiedy i n i n the lB3 h 9 in coincidence with a vote which was at that time perfectlynow e the at the head of the views of the Secretary forlreland, He had then advocated the views which Woods and Forests. he now held, and they we re Th Government. ese three point - he had submitted to the s w ere retted that the Noble L shortly as follows, and he re Lord at the in hisplace. He i - head of the Government was not iad.then stated before the Government ofthatda that in Ireland they had no . resour7s, no capit a l, no machi nery for the formati on of rail ways in Ireland. B ut i n Eng contrary was the fact, and in following land precisely the . the i felt that it ' Noble Lord in those views he . was right. Now hi s this, that it it was right in 1839 to promote principle was was • • the formation of railway?. in Ireland, it still more right to do so now. He did not pledge himself to the 16,000,0001., but if the principle were right, then th e d eta il s were of secondary consequence--(Cries of "No, no.") He might be wrong, but if he understood Parliamentary usage aright, it was that in giving a vote for any measure on the second reading, he was only committing himself to the principle of the measure and not to the details of the plan.—(Hear, hear. ) The second portion of the plan was to promote the railways themselves; and the third:course was to advance money for the formation of these several railways, and he conscientiously believed that not a s hini ng would be lost. He would refer to a petition which he had presented in 1839, and he might say that he should be ineonsistent if he did not vote now for that which had been the object of his desire, in 1847. That petition was headed by the Duke of Leinster, followed by the Marquis of Bedford, Earl Mountcashel, and other equally influential men in that country. This petition stated that rail roads were the best means which could possibly be adopted for the impreveseent of Treleort. He Led been reminded that the present Chancellor of, the Exchequer was not Chancellor tl:•ei he would not, therefore, quote that gentlemao's opinion, but he would quote the opinion stated by the Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), and that was, that railroads in Ireland was the only cure for the evil, and he hoped that his vote would this night be in accordance with his speech in 1839. This was no transitory calamity passing over Ireland, to be cured in seven or eight months. In his own neighbourhood he had done all that he could to alleviate the evil.--( Hear, hear.) But it should be remembered that the whole of the potato crop of Ireland had been destroyed, and therefore it was that he warned the House that some measures should be devised for the relief of the people of Ireland, add unless they did devise such measures, he was quite sure that the people Faust starve. What was the condition of the landlords of Ireland? Why that in the majority of the cases the rent was not paid by onesfourth of the tenants ; that in half the cases there was not one-sixth of the rent paid; and in many cases it was an actual fact that the people who were oppressed were them selves more in need of relief than those who were on the list of the guardians. He knew a nobleman, a landlord in the county of Tipperary, whose annual rental was some 7,4001., but what would the House think when he told them that that nobleman had only received 5101 out of his 7,4001., being not 8 per cent. of that which was legally due to him ? He told Hon. Gentlemen in that House that the landlords in that country with which he was connected, as well as in the county next to it, had sold their houses, given up their carriages, and devoted their time and their money to the maintenance of the destitute poor in their localities ; they had taxed themselves to the extent of 30s. in the pound on their rental. In one barony in the county of Waterford, they had, up to that peried, laid on themselves a burden of 30s. on their average rental to meet the exigencies of the barony. He knew three landlords in the same county who employed and paid from their own resources upwards of 1,200 individuals, and if Hon. Members doubted the fact, he would give the names of these three gentlemen, although it was sometimes unpleasant to do so in that House. And when Irish Members were told, by the Hon. Member for Inverness, that the land lords of Ireland ought to have taken measures to borrow money from the Government, as the landlords in the Highlands of Scotland,:and in other places, had done, his ( Sir H. Barron's) answer to that was, that he himself, and other Irish landlords, had applied to the Board of Works for a portion of the million, which had in a previous session been voted for the purposes of draining; and what did the House think was the answer he received from the Board ? Why, he got a post letter asking him if he was a tenant for life, because, if he was, he need not apply, as the Government had taken the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, and the provisions of the measure did not apply to such. Why, he told the House that eleven out of every twelve proprietors in Ireland were tenants for life, and therefore they did not get a single shilling out of the million which had been so much talked about in that House and out of it, and they were altogether thrown on their own resources. That was the fair and honest answer to give to the Hon. Member for Inverness. And now he might perhaps be allowed to say that he regretted exceedingly the tone adopted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in regard to Irish landlords. He regretted that tone most sincerely, because he thought it an improper tone. to take with regard to Ireland ; he thought that her dis tresses and difficulties were great, and it peculiarly interested the Government of this empire, the people, and this House, to show their sympathy by giving their assistance to that country. He would net dwell at any length on this point, but he hoped that a sympathy of feeling would be evinced by her Majesty's Government with the people of Ireland. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had told them that this Bill was intended rather for the relief of destitute shareholders than of the destitute poor of Ireland. That might have been intended as a very good antithesis—as an amusing way of putting the question—but it was not consistent with the fact. The Bill was for the pur pose of giving assistance to the poor of Ireland. He believed in his conscience that this was the objectof the Bill, and for that reason he intended to vote for the second reading. Ile ( Sir H. W. Barron) had no connexion with the destitute shareholders in Ireland, or any other shareholders, but the Bill received his support because it was intended to give relief to all classes in the country, from the highest peer to the hum. bleat peasant. He knew that the landlords in Ireland had come forward on this occasion in the most noble and generous manner.—(Cries of " Question, question.") He thought it right to state these things, because much had been said in that House against the course pursued by the more wealthy classes of Ireland. In the city of Waterford, the merchants, the shopkeepers, and the residents of all degrees were doing their duty nobly; they had not g ot the assistance of a shilling from Government, and yet they had four relief committees at work.--( Hear, hear.) He did not, however say, that the landlords of Ireland had in every period of their country's history done their duty so well; he admitted that absentee landlords had grossly neglected their estates and forgotten the interests of their tenantry. It became every man who retained a feeling of humanity in his bosom to attend in his place and to provide some means for the relief of the starving thousands in Ireland ; this measure afforded hopes of doing so, and there fore he should give it all the support in his power, because in thus acting he would be doing his duty to his constituents, his country, and his God. Sir ROBERT PEEL said—Sir, it is my wish to discuss the proposal which has been brought forward by the Noble Lord in a spirit and temper befitting the deep sense which I entertain for the magnitude of the calamity under which Ireland is now suffering, and the magnitude of that future danger which is, I fear, impending over her.—( Cheers. ) Sir, I understand the Noble Lord to bring forward this question in a spirit free from all party feeling. I understand him to bring it forward, not as a measure in hostile rivalry with the proposal of her Majesty's Government, but as a contribution suggested by the Noble Lord towards the mea sures that were deemed to be calculated to diminish the suffer ings of Ireland. Sir, in that spirit it is my intention to dis cuss it. lam the more inclined to do so, because the vote which I shall give will be upon the merits of the question founded, and will be influenced by the consideration of those consequences which the Noble Lord indicated as the possible re sult of the measure. Sir, the proposal is, that the credit of the country should be pledged to the amount of sixteen millions for the purpose of providing employment for the poor of Ireland. sir, the extent to which it is proposed so to engage the credit of this country, justifies, and, in my opinion, necessitates some reference to the financial condition and financial prospects of the country. Sir, the financial condition of the country, judg ing from the last returns, made up to the beginning of Janu ary last., shows the financial condition of the country, no doubt, to be in a prosperous state. It would appear from those returns, that the amount of revenue received within the year--not of course ending the sth of April, but on the sth of January last—that the amount of revenue received within the year far exceeded the estimate which was made by my Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That revenue was partly derived, no doubt, from sources which my Right Hon. Friend could not calculate, but, speaking generally of the ordinary sources of revenue for the year ending on the Ist of January last, the receipts were greater than the most sanguine expectation could have anticipated.—( Hear, hear.) Sir, I think my Right Hon. Friend calculated that the amount of revenue for the year ending sth April, 1847, would be about 51,900,0004 Mr. GOULBURN-50,000,000/. Sir R. PEEL—Yes, 50,900,0001.—that would be about 51,000,000/. The net receipts of the year ending the sth of being ß an excess Right igb January last (being the receipts to the sth of January an d not the sthes st b t eha nes t si m3, W ate o,o oT 7., my Honourable Friend.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The of of April, 2,oo o, were 0001. not upon l balance in the Exchequer was not less than 9,000,0007., and the total amount of excess of revenue over expenditure w as, I think, about '2, 800 , 060 /. Se far, therefore, as the re ceipts and disbursements up to the present year are concerned , the financial condition of the country is prosperous; but with reference to the proposal of the Noble Lord, pledging the country to the amount of 16,000,0001., the matter for our consideration is rather the prospects of the coming year than the results of the year that has past--(Hear, hear.) Sir, the Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty's Govern ment, or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, will, upon an early day, state to us the view which her Majesty's Govern ment take of the financial state of the country. Sir, I appre hend they can hardly calculate upon the receipts of the coming financial year being greater, perhaps not so great, as the receipts of the present year. It is hardly possible to con ceive that, considering the high price of provisions in the country, considering the depressed state of manufactures, par ticularly in some great branches, considering the expected hi g h price of one of the great raw materials of manufactures-- I mean cotton—considering the effect which the high price of provisions thoughout the whole continent of Europe, and the high price of provisions in the United States of America must produce upon the power of consumption in a y rfdatot e ole ratevaethrpro,h:intbsaewtsyty:i sense niwsfsapasaethionyt responsibility 01 estimate,s; s l fifobjric ap:olihavetsuntmhtybaienfipi believe lecceae t dei oli with complaint is vaseayte.,nci calculaterepoasvnucasetbtithrttuelhnai estimates, different quarters of Europe and America—it is hardly possi ble for us to believe that this concurrence of untoward circum stances will not materially affect the revenue. Sir, as to the upon no ordinary expenditure. I believe, in respect to the , m e melod : ffofoa i en p a l mni affairs. But contrary, ytt t t uleaatkßls quarrel ih,stataehi, ready t hwy c h i ra r itt e etd ulohsdttpitherefore, naval, n etneai e g etorthuen there will be an addition of not less than 400,000/. 1 no Goverment would propose an increased estimate Increase proposed of 400,0007., while I cannot anticipate that there will be any reduction in the miscellaneous estimates. I apprehend that there will be an additional expenditure on the charge of debt, and thus the ordinary annual expenditure will considerably exceed the expenditure of the present.—( Hear, hear.) Then, Sir, with respect to the future. I am prepared to expect an increase on account of the necessary expenses, for the purpose of doing that which I am prepared and ready to do, namely, for the purpose of miti gating those horrors which at present overwhelm Ireland.— ( Hear, hear.) lam prepared to consent to a full expenditure —so a noeral expenditure—to errors ru into count, y in common with the other relief, but I anticipate that the necessary result will be this—it will cause a considerable deficit, comparing the revenue of next year with the necessary expenditure. Sup. posing this terrible calamity had not fallen upon Ireland, it is possible that the Noble Lord might have been enabled to esti mate some considerable excess of revenue, but if the amount of expenditure required for Ireland should at all approach the sum that has been estimated by the Noble Lord, namely, some 9, or possibly 11 millions, it is still highly probable that there will be, on the sth of April, 1848, a deficit of not less than 7 or 8 millions, comparing the actual expenditure with the receipts. But, I believe, you will have to follow up that ex penditure by a large and liberal expenditure, to enable the people of Ireland to lay the foundation of a better food than that upon which they have hitherto existed.—(Hear, hear.) Our great object, therefore, will be in having proceeded, by absolute necessity to meet the present emergency to con sider minutely what those measures will be. I hope they will be conceived in a wise, and candid, and liber a l spirit,' such as shall lay the foundation of that social regeneration so far as the sustenance of the people is concerned.—(Hear, hear.) Looking at these measures and exertions on the part of the Government and the country, considering the great expendi ture that will be required, and considering that, to meet the present emergency, it will require a sum of not less than seven or eight millions, it is hardly possible that the future finan cial condition of the country can be gratifying.—( Hear, hear.) Now, with these financial prospects before us, let us just inquire what is the present and probable future state of the money-market. That inquiry may possibly excite a smile, but I use the term money-market in the sense that means neither more nor less than what are public wants.—( Hear, hear.) It is purpose of supplying public should contract another loan for the roposed that the . measure. It will be a burden upon the purpose of a certainn be provided for in some way or other by the terms upon which the public can borrow money for the people which must _ ar e Cents., which a short time since Three-and-a-Half per. ,hear.) Well then, 1 find that the which were, even a short time ago, as presentpar, not more than 91/. Calculating high as 1001., are at ot' the last six or seven months, that that price with those not less than 4 or 5 per cont. So much for shows a depression of Let us now look to the unfunded debt. I funded property. Exchequer-bills that they are at a find in in the case of the 1 some 55. premium. Now, of course, count, or at all events, on Y arket is a most material considera the state of the money pv;ebrleicatsencoutrlietises't.h—an( ti f to the prospects of the country again, with respect . affairs. It was given out its foreign in relation .to the first day of the session, that by her Majesty, on still c ontinued, and was likely to continue, this country with the foreign Powers of Europe. I on terms of amity announcement with great satisfaction, but my con fidenceheard that bshaken b-•• recollecting the discus • it was somew at Been this . tion in discussing the j m uestion of the Noble Lord. Then, in question plae ; and the remembrance that it was upon a certain announced th.lt three other great Powers in , at the same time m tted a ma. ifest violation ot good faith to- Europe had com t 6 between this and another great country lat 911., and Exchequer-bills le Lord calls upon Now, i a this state of things, the Funds bills scarcely bearing premiums, the us to authorise her Majesty's Governmentol' to sanction contracts shichN are to spread swioannisswthhiicshcotounktry. ver four years, that may amount to 16,000,0001.—( Hear.) I know of no other mode for providing for this assumed defi ciency, except by a vigorous effort—by direct taxation— ( Hear, hear)—visited on all parts of the United Kingdom— (Heir, hear)---or by the issue of Exchequer-bills in this doubtful state of the public revenue, or the contraction of a loan to the amount required, engendering possibly a direct taxation in order to provide for the interest of that loan. I give no opinion whatever on the policy of adopting the alter native course. But suppose the financial Minister considered it right to risk the loan upon Exchequer-bills, I am compelled to ask, would it be advisable to increase the difficulty of his financial position by entering into engagements to the amount of 16,000,000/., to be spread over a period of four years? Sir, I must totally and entirely differ front those who contend that you can pledge the public credit of the country for the purpose of promoting commercial enterprise without subjecting the country to any risk of loss. (Hear, hear.) Why, the Noble Lord may find it absolutely ne cessary to provide also four millions of money in the present year to meet the emergency of the time; and, depend upon it, you will at once so surcharge the money market, that there must be a positive addition made to the interest paid upon Exchequer-bills.—( Hear, hear. ) What is the public credit of the country ? Why it is a part of the national property—it is one of the elements of our fi nanc i a l strength, and you cannot appropriate any portion of that credit to the encouragement of commercial enterprise without weak ening your power to apply the same principle in eases of emer gency. It is quite impossible that the contrary should be the case, and, therefore, I say that the application of the national credit is very much the same in principle as the application of direct taxation.—(Hear, hear.) Every appli cation of the public credit engenders a necessity of an in creased taxation, and renders you less able to make a great exertion when necessary ; and therefore it does become abso lutely necessary to consider whether the application of sixteen millions of money is required for the purpose of meeting the present calamity and averting the future danger of Ire land, and whether the gain is equal to the risk we run from such an application. If I understand the Bill, it is this, it enables the Treasury to advance, for the next four years, a sum, the maximum of which is sixteen millions; it does not impose any obligation that the whole sum is to be levied at the same time, but twelve millions may be levied in four years, and the remainder when the Railway Commissioners might desire. This advance of sixteen millions was not limited to railways that had absolutely received the sanction of Parliament; but supposing, after the investigation of the Railway Commissioners, there should be found only a sufficient extent of works to demand the application of twelve millions, you must not infer that the Treasury is limited to advance only the 12,000,000/.; power is given in the Bill to the Treasury to ad vance the other four if Parliament should give its sanction to any other projects. It is not that the Treasury is liable to ad vance the motley, but as I read the Bill, there is no dissection given to withold it, provided that the Railway Commissioners certify that the project is likely to afford employment, and be beneficial to the country. The power which was invested in that department was taken away, and placed in the hands of Hon. Gentlemen who might be railway shareholders. It was certainly a novel principle to make the Treasury of the country, with respect to the advance of sixteen millions in the course of four years a mere instrument destitute of power, and to transfer it to a body in no way responsible, and in no way interested in economising the expenditure of the country. It certainly was a novel principle to introduce. What ! to divest the Trea sury of its power, and make it a mere instrument in the hands of Railway Commissioners, compelled to advance the public money on the certificate of those Commissioners, which was not even very stringent in its provisions. as the Treasury should find the money if the certificate ran thus,—" That the effect of the railway would be beneficial to the public, and likely to afford public employment." It is not to be that there is any certainty of repayment—(Hear, hear)—and on receiving that certificate, the financial department of the country has no option, but must'at once proceed to raise the required amount. Now, as to the prospect of repayment, it was generally assumed that at the end of thirty years they would obtain their money back again. But observe that there was no providing in the Bill which insisted on the borrowing company provisions for the gradual repayment of the loan. Last year—l allude to the Drainage Bill—we advanced money at a very low rate of interest, at three-and-a-half per cent., but we provided that the borrower should instantly commence to repay the principal at not less than six-and-a-half per cent. But by the present Bill the borrower could do so at three per cent., and is not required to repay any portion until the expira tion of thirty years. Well, even at that remote period— (A laugh)—have you a certain prospect of getting back any portion of it ? By no meant; for there is a clause in the Bill which provides that the time can be extended. The measure, I admit, is as* free from objection as that for making roads, or administering relief; and it was not on that account that I have considered it right to oppose it. The Hon. Gentleman who sits near me (Mr. Hudson) takes a particular pride in that part of the Bill which pays off mortgages on the railways which are now existing.—(Laughter.) The first part of the measure pays off three debts.—(Laughter.) (Mr. Hudson here observed that it was only intended to pay off the private debts. )—But, says the Hon. Gentleman, this will make the coast clear if they pay off the private debts.— ( Laughter.) I understand, therefore, that the first application of the money to be advanced from the Treasury would be to pay off the creditors of the railways, even though they were not holders of shares. —)Laughter.) Some railway companies were at present borrowing money at 5 per cent. (Mr. Hudson re marked that the Great Western Company only paid 41 per cent.) The Hon. Gentleman says—See what I have done ; look at the state of the money-market. I have been able to raise a capital of ten millions within three or four months. But, he says, don't suppose that I have a share in any Irish railway. 1 have no interest whatever in any Irish railway.— (Laughter.) Is it not a fact, however, that a great portion of the shareholders in Irish railways were Englishmen?— ( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Lynn said," See what an enormous profit the construction of Irish railways will be to the English railways. Can it be supposed that a railway with a terminus in Waterford, Drogheda, or Dublin, will be of no use to English railways ?" But if this undoubted and enormous profit to English railways be the consequence of the construction of Irish railways, on what ground do they now come forward and ask Government for assistance ?—(Cheers. ) Suppose they are deriving 10 per cent. on the railways in this country, and that an extraordinary increase of profit is ex pected on the completion of the Irish railways, why do they ask money at 3/ per cent. for which they ought to pay five or 6 per cent.?—( Cheers.) Was not that a clear gain of 21,4 per cent., or 25,0001. on every 1,000,000/.?—( Cheers.) If that be the case, then do not say it is merely pledging the public credit; it is a direct bonus on Irish railways.—(Cheers.) I, there fore, am of opinion that no claim whatever has been established for Government assistance. Even if they were not sharehold ers in these railways, they would have no right to claim Go vernment assistance for an undertaking which they stated pos sessed so many clear and undoubted evidences of intrinsic profit. —(Hear, hear.) If the statements be true which had been made, they were an inducement to English shareholders to come forward and embark their capital in these railways, and my Honourable Friend (Mr. Hudson) should come forward liberally, and head the list.—( Cheers and laughter.) But if, notwithstanding all these objections, it be a great measure, calculated as the Noble Lord (I3entinck) says, to encourage industrial enterprise in Ireland—calculated as a great instru ment to work out the social amelioration of the condition of that country—l ant not disposed to be diverted from the attain ment of such desirable results by the financial difficulties that may be its accompaniment ; but it is because I have a doubt that neither the advantages predicted, nor a considerable portion of them, will result from the adoption of the measure, cud that the financial difficulties to which I have adverted will aertainly be its attendant, that has decided the vote which I shall give to-night.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury has alluded to the mistakes of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and has endeavoured to show the great mistakes made by the Right Hon. Gentleman ; but I think there was one mistake into which he himself fell. The Honourable Gentleman was referring to the inferiority of Ireland to England, and was stating what a strange contrast there existed between the currency of Scotland and Ireland. I consider that as a most fallacious test of the prosperity of the country. It has been the evil of Scotland that it has not increased its circulation. I believe that no country in the world has made more rapid advances than Scotland has, and yet by looking at the comparison of the amount of the present currency with what it was thirty years since, it would bu found as., r-, •• - - ;•-• opposition to the arguments of the Hon. Member for Shrews bury. The Hon. Member stated that in Ireland the amount of notes in circulation averaged only 1/. per head, whereas in Scotland it was equal to 161. per head. Mr. DISRAELI—No, no. Sir R. PEEL—This showed the necessity for indulgence on the part of lion. Members in alluding to speeches pre viously delivered. I certainly understood the Hon. Member to say that the allowance for Scotland was at the rate of 16/. 111 per head. Mr. DISRAELI—Not of currency. Sir R. PEEL—Then I have mistaken the statentents of the Hon. Member. I have not the slightest wish to misquote the ex pressions of any Hon. Member.—( Hear. ) I was going, however, to advert to that which is, after all , the main test of the p ros perity of a nation. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury says that he admits the truth of the abstract doctrine, that it is better to leave commercial enterprise free of all State inter ference. I think that doctrine is not only practically sure, but, in the case of England, I think it is also perfectly practicable. The prospect of commercial gain is alone the feeling which influences the conduct or enters into the views of Ste specu lator s near, near) —he calculates upon a certain amount of profit, and the number of men whom he has to employ ; these and other considerations it is which induce him to de. termine whether he shall speculate in a certain enterprise or riot. The doctrine of non-interference is not only perfectly true, but also perfectly applicable. But the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury says that those doctrines are not perfectly appli cable in a country like Ireland, because, there, political con• siderations overpower commercial speculations. The State has misgoverned Ireland, and, therefore, the State should in terfere in commercial enterprise.—( Hear, hear.) That is an argument I wish to protest against. I do not think it is for the advantage of Ireland that political considerations should overpower those considerations. I have heard several speeches from Hon Members who have addressed the House in favi.ur of the measure, and, from those speeches, I am convinced that if the statements made by those Hon. Members be true, then they are such as should induce the Irish landlords to encourage, from their own resources, the commerce of the country.— ( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Lynn said, " Complete the Irish railroads, complete the 1,500 miles of railroads, and see what will be the benefit to the Irish land lords. The land upon every square mile adjoining the railway will be improved, every acre within the vicinity of that rail way will be improved by a positive addition to the value of the rental, taking it at the lowest estimate of 10s. per acre. The whole number of acres so improved in the annual rental of 10s. will amount to 1,900,0001. ; and this increase of rental would cause in the purchase price of the land an ad dition of 23,000,0001." derive d by If this, then, is the profit to be by the Irish landlords by the construction of these Have I not railways, , wh t y do they not make these railroads?—(Cheers.) right to call upon the Irish landowners in the vicinity of these railways, to give every facility to an enterprise, the sum mwz bene ficialfrom the a effects which they are to derive Now, with reference to the Galway fisheri i essa,id of ."3,00 the . p pent ft pl e b e r for Stamford (the Marquis of Granby) of Galway could go out in their boat to s, ant bring on their return with them a quantity of herrings said the he, what a benefit it would value of 4,0001., the produce of a single night; and, be to the Irish people , if they were enabled to take their fish to other parts of the country by means of railways, and dispose of lay it at once, instead of having to idle for three or four nights, and losing fish to the value of 4,000/. on each night. Are n o t these, then, considerations of grea t commercial importance, an d should not the Irish landowner s embark their property in such valuable undertakings? Their land will be improved, and profitable fisheries will be encouraged. Mr. HUDSON—They have got no money. Sir R. PEEL—The Hon. Member for Sunderland says they have got no money. Why, there is the same power that raised 10,000,0001. a few weeks since. —( Cheers). If these railways are so beneficial, what is the reason that British capital is not in vested in them ?—( Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Shrews bury says that political considerations have overwhelmed the or dinary commercial considerations, and that the shareholders of Ireland find a great difficulty in obtai n i ng possession of the land, in consequence of the complicated nature of the title to the land. Then I would say, simplify the means of obtaining the titles to land in that country.— , (Cheers.) It has been proved that it is to the interest of the landowners to give their land for the purpose of making these railways, and I meet that o bj ect i on o f t h e great d i ff i cu l t i es t h e Irish companies: have to contend with in obtaining possession of the land, by advising, with the hearty consent of the lands; owners themselves, the adoption of some measure to facilitate the purchase of land upon fair and equitable terms.—(Cheers.) Nothing is more easy than for you to do that. You have al ready done it one case—the case of the Shannon navigation. In that case the claims have been left to the decision of the just, and Commissioners. Their awards have been so and made in so fair a spirit, that not a single appeal has been made against their decision. The same principle is carried out in France and Belgium, and I earneetly hope that some measure will be adopted for the purpose o! simpli fying the titles to property in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Wel2, then, it has been said that political er religious differnl. ces would prevent the people acting in concert in the formation of . these works of utility. They should be invited to take p art in the concerns of their common country, and all these religious and p o liti ca l anim o sities will pass away . when they find that it is their interest and their duty to combine together to enconrage these works, and to discourage all those party feelings a n d re li g i ous an i mos iti es. —(Ch eers .) But let the . people supp ose th at t h ey can d o not hi ng f or t h emse lves, and that the Government is prepared to do everything for threes these animosities w ill cont i nue t o p reven t the elViii sation of the capital and energies of the people , to the promotion of works of commercial enterprise' Thus they will obtain double advantages by leaving those works to be constructed by the means of individual enterprise, and, at the same time, encouraging great social improvements among , the p eop l e. The lion. Gentleman the Member for Shrewsbury called upon the State to make those railways; but what ad van t ages were to accrue in return ? There is, he said, a field of coal at Mallow more extensive than any coal-field in operation in England. " Make a railway," he said, " and not five years will elapse before that field of coal will be explored, and its produce carried along the line proposed to be con structed to various p ar t s o f I reland. It would be transported to Dublin, and to th e o th er l arge consuming towns in the country." He said furth er , t h at i t would be found as important and lucrative a coal -field as any i n England. But why do political considerations overpower commercial consideratiovs ? Why do not men of capital, and men of sense, estimate the probable produce of th a t coal-field, an d calculate' what amount of toll would be received for the transmission of that produce over the line ?—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman also said that the fisheries will receive a new stimulus--that new resi dents will be brought into the country, and that the trade of the country will be increased. But why are not all these results still obtained by the commercial instead of political enterprise? 1 firmly believe, that if you de not overpower Irish enterprise by the application of English capital by Government interfer ence, I firmly believe, that at no remote period, that those works will be carried out by the enterprise of the country.— ( Hear, hear.) If I really believed the financial condition of the country would permit it, and that it would be decidedly for the advantage of Ireland, a great part of my objections would be removed, but I have most serious doubts that if you fetter Irish enterprise by the applica tion of English capital, as proposed in the Noble Lord's Bill, Ido doubt very much whether it would be for the benefit of the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.) Yet, I admit that there have been interferences by the State for the purpose of promoting public works. In the last year, when I was the First Lord of the Treasury, I consented to advance some money to an Irish railway on the same principle upon which advances for commercial purposes are made. I ate not at al/ prepared to say whether, owing to this calamity which has visited Ireland, that it would be unwise under certain restric tions, and under certain guarantees for the repayment of the advances, to make such loans.—(Cheers from Lord George Bentinck.) But the extent and encouragement which. the Noble Lord proposes to give, will, I believe, not be so beneficial to the country, arid to the districts through which the lines would pass, as he anticipates ; and, moreover, will not give such tan gible security as we have a right to expect. The only security that you have is, in cases of default, the seizure of the railway. —(Cheers.) If the shareholders in those lines to which ad vances have been made refuse to contribute their share of the money borrowed, or the interest upon' it, you have no other option than to take possession of the railway, and finish it at the public expense (Hear) —or in a case of absolute failure, you have no remedy against the shareholders. The remedy is not against the shareholders, but against the old iron rails.—(Laughter.) In speaking thus, I am stating the views which I have long held. lam not adverse to the occasional application of capital for the purpose of encouraging enterprise both in this country and in Ireland.—(Cheers.) What I sincerely deprecate is such supposed encouragement as shall prevent individual enterprise, and those who ought to rest upon individual enterprise, by such an interference as shall pa ralyse that enterprise, by rendering it valueless, and conse quently inoperative, as I think the advance which any such sum as that proposed by the Government, whose interference would be carried to some extent as to its application, could not have any other effect than that of paralysing individual enterprise. Sir, I know the Noble Lord will say that myestimate is incorrect; that 7,000,0001. will be required, independently of the capital proposed to be expended by his measure for the relief of the distress in Ireland, under the powers of the Bill already passed by this House, as his measure, by finding, employment for the people, will reduce the necessity of making such large advances. Now, admitting in the first plac e , th e men w h o w ill b e employed are generally Irishmen, and not Englishmen from this country, yet 1 greatly doubt whether the passing of the Bill of the Noble Lord would immediately diminish that expenditure which wilt be absolutely necessary for the relief of the destttue. Now I hold in ray hand a map of the railways which have received the sanction of Parliament, of those which have been completed, and of those in the course of execution. By this map it appears that it verifies the observation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer who, speaking genera ll y, sa id t h at railways were sanctioned by Parliament mainly for the east coast. I only find two, of com paratively small extent, passing to the westward. The first is from Sligo to the Shannon, the capital of which is, I think, 100,000/ ; and the second from Limerick, through Killaloe to Ennis, the capital of which was 300,000/. But, with respect to the west, there are no Bills for the construction of railways through it, except one in the county of Clare; nor in Donegal, Roscommon, Leitrim, Sligo (with the exception of that small railway for which the estimate was 100,0001. ), Mayo, Galway, Clare (with the exception of the railway from Limerick to Ennis), and through a great part of the county of Limerick. But no provision would be made for the employment of the destitute persons in the immediate neighbourhood of the line which would be made. In the returns read the other evening by the Hun. Gentleman, it appeared that the persons who would be employed on railways were those residing in the im mediate neighbourhood of the lines. If that be so, first of all, the removal of men from Connaught to work at the lines would take him away from his family, and that would be a great misfortune, if they numbered as many as ten. That is no small evil. Who would provide for their sustenance during his absence? Certainly it would net do away with demands on the Government from the west, which would still be heavy notwith standing the employment which would he given under the Noble Lord's Bill. I was saying that I have for a long period enter tained sincere doubts whether you might not carry Govern ment interference too far, so far as to injure commercial enter prise. Now, I wish the House could be fully aware of the history of the inland navigation of Ireland. Inland navigation in Ireland was promoted and encouraged by the Government. It is necessary that I should refer to this point, although I may trespass a short time longer on the attention of the House, and I thank the House for the attention with which it has listened to me.—(Loud cheers.) I wish to present to the House the contrast between enterprise encouraged and fostered by the Government, and enterprise undertaken under every difficulty and discouragement, and what was taken for individual gain by individual enterprise. The Irish Parliament greatly encouraged and fostered inland navigation. What were the grounds on which public aid was granted? Exactly the same on which we are asked to give the enormous public aid sought by this Bill.--(Loud cheers.) By the 23d of George 11., a corporation was ap pointed to carry on inland navigation. What was intended to be done? To take a canal directly across Ireland, in the con fident hope that the returns would be most enormous—so enor mous that the prosperity of Ireland would be promoted, and it would have been most beneficial if it had been left in the hands of individual shareholders. I3y this Act of Parliament it was stated " that these works of inland navigation, being for the public benefit, by encouraging tillage, and giving employ ment to the poor, it is fit and reasonable that they should be carried on at the charge of the kingdom, by grants from the public funds." In 1787, then, it was found that the works had progressed so badly, that it was decided that they would not ultimately prove advantageous to the company. It was - -t- eranting public money was perilous and abortive. The °ulcers wt. , , +l-1- Act at salaries as large as 5001. to superintend and control the worsts, but the result of their management was that they made two canals running parallel to each other.—(Hear, and laughter.) The lion. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer re ferred to the wo canals—the Royal and the Great Canal, the original estimate for the first of which was, I think, 180,0001. The circumstances of the canal caused an inquiry to be made in 1811. Now what was the position in which this canal, sup ported and fostered by public money, was found ? Why we found that 186,000/. of the public money had been granted, though the original capital was stated to be only 190,00,1.-- (Hear, hear.) And while the Government had advanced 186,0001., it appeared that 182.000/., had been expended otherwise. The increase was 15,000/., while the mainte nance of the permanent works was 11,000/., leaving only 4,0001. to cover the whole debt and expenditure of the corn pany.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") This was a work which was stated at the time to be a great national undertaking, yet the unfortunate results I have given are the fruits of the company being fostered by the Government. The company to which I have referred, at the very time it was in this state, made dividends without any profits, and even when they were obliged to pay not only the interest on their debt, but also their present expenses, by fresh leans.—( Hear, hear.) The same results have been shown in the case of the Caledonian Canal as what I have shown in the present case. Both the Caledonian as well as the Royal Canals were great national undertakings, yet at the very time ., I have referred to, the latter company told me, as I was then Secretary of Ireland, that unless they could get 100,0001. more, their whole affairs would go to ruin.—( Hear, hear. ) Parlianaent grantedthe canal 50,000/. more, which was added to the 182,0001 . , making a total sum advanced of 232,000e—(Cries of " Hear, hear")—but what is the present position of the company I cannot say ; but since then I trust its affairs have been under better manage- merit. This is the rernlt of Government interference:— ( Hear, hear.) Sir, I cannot leave this part of the subject without adverting to what has appeared in the admirable re port of the late Mr. Drummond, in much bf which I agree ; anticipating as it did many of the improvements and suggestion s since made in that report, in which i s given the resu l t s of the Government interference in the Royal Canal. There is also an account of the indomitable efforts and enterprise all o the e sou n th: vidual within the last tw ent y y ears in suppiying the south-west, and many other parts of Ireland, with means of internal communication. This account affords a contrast . be tween the results of a scheme like the present underconsictera tion, fostered by the Government, and those of individual en terprise. The one to which I re fer, is the establishment of a regular system of cars between the provincial towns of Ireland. The Hon. Member read an extract from the report in question. It set out with stating, that about twenty years ago, while there were coaches in a few of the leading roads of Ireland, the cross - road s and small towns had no convenience. The country was in this state until an individual took it up— an individual who had no advantages from connexion with the country—no great capital or influence. He was a foreigner— an Italian, a native of Milan, who could not c,e n s p ea k th e li language of the country. Signor anconi tried first with one car, which he started between Clonmel and Clare. He had no thing but his industry and forhe integrity to d e p en d on f or success— but these were s u lEcient,uoon increas e d hi s num b er o f cars until he had established he , them all ove r th e p rov i nce From of Munster.extended them into Leitrim and Sligo, and throughout Connaught generally, until they occu pied all the north-west parts of the kingdom. He had now ninety-four p u bli c conveyances, and the distance which they in travelled e xcee d e d three thousand —(Cheers.) These result s h a d b een ac hi eve d i n di str i c t s w hi c h were theloci of agrarian disturbance in districts where life and property were nut secure, where party processions and religious feelings ran high. Notwithstanding this state of things, M. Biancoai had carried out his system everywhere without hindrance or disturbance, and was popular wherever he went. In the face of the greatest difficulties had individual enterprise succeeded ; he established himself securely in those foci of agrarian outrage, where life and property were not secure, and when there was every discouragement to the enterprise in which he had em. barked. His confidence had net been abused. By just and active exertions he had succeeded, and was not only safe, but popular with all classes of the people.—(Elear, hear.) This, continued the Right Hon. Baronet, is a contrast to the cases that have gone before to the schemes fostered by Government support. By the exertion of individual enterprise, this foreigner, who did not understand the language of the country, IT. 'ler in )f the was ruck. ments , and ithy very ruck, their v "- n of ~r~ a , kf L } ir g Pay ed it rate ‘`, 4 1 1