The Sun. — London, England, 1806-04-01 00:00:00

• r • - investigation. That provision Was a proof th . at there was something wrong in the system, 'air everything was not exadly squared, but did not warrant the. de duaion of the Honourable Gentleman. As to the remedy pointed out by his HonourakleFriend, he per fetly nreed with him in his 'views on that subjed, 'ext4.2t that he did not think it the only remedy. He could see no reason why the issues in• specie should not be resumed. He knew not what was intended on that head, but he should bear much stronger ar gurnents, than he had - ever before heard, or his opi nion would' remain unalterable. He had thus gone through all the .oeneml topics touched upon by his' Hon. Friend. As to what he. had stated with respeft to the Property Tax, he shOUldonly say, that his own great objection, and oOe which he bad last year urged, was against the gradual increase of it.' He thought it far better, that_ at the' cod ineficement Of a war it should be -'carried to the full amount to which it would . be 'necessary to carry it, than to increase it gradually. As' be was on the snb je& of the War Taxes, he should add, - that the present Administration foo - Pclihe system in effe&.— It would be madness in theM.tO overturn it. It was his favourite plan, that at the commencement of a War, wl.atever WarTaxes.siimild be thought-neces sary or desirable in the circumstances of the Country, should be imposed at once for fohr or five 'years, - to ascertain their operation, and not be raised from'year to year.. In this . view the Property Tax now pro posed had his coniplete approbation.-:—The Country. .wanted large taxes He 'Should nor enter • into the general, merits of the Budget, though lie believed the taxes proposed by his Noble 'Friend Were liable to' as little objeCtion as any other. -He - was' sure hi Noble Friend was ,entitled to his gratitude, and that a the Country, for *having undertaken the arduous duties of the office he filled under such eireuniqanCes of difficulty; and, though.he assumed the office at such an age, what passed on a former night sheaved that he had not accepted of a situation to which he Was not fally competent. Mr: FRANCIS, in explanation, said, he still saw no security against a ftirther augmentation of the rioperty Tax. iv r . Secretary FOX, in explanation, said, he still saw no reason to retra& One word of what he had said in praise of his Noble Friend's statement. Mr. HUSKISSON was pleased .with the perfe& good humour with which this debate was marked,and trusted it would prevail throughout. He did not think the advantageous bargains that were now made for loans to be attributed altogether to the. Sinking Fund, but rather to the system of raising a great part of the' -supplies within the year.. In the year : l79B the rapid accumulation of the public debt, from the expences -of the last. war, rendered it necessary to a& upon that wise and patriotic principle. In the year before that 4 small loan could not be had on any better terms than an interest of 61. 105. 6d. though the Sinking Fund bad been in. operation long be fore that time. .The Sinking Ftind added t per cent. - to the capital of the debt ; but it had not then the etre& the. Hon. Gentleman imputed to it, of keeping the Stocks at 00. That public. benefit was, there fore to be imputed, in.a great measure, to thesystem of raising so much of the supplies within the year,-.e. - With respe& to the Opposition that the interest on Exchequer Bills was not mad.e prods aive to the Pro perty Tax, he had to observe, tlaat,abovoal( the Outstanding Exchequer Bills were held by the Bank, much to the public advantage, and of course did not escape the tax. The statement of- an arrear of ; 5,860,0001. remaining from theilast yegr had made 21! -impression, as if the :Ways and Yeaans voted .for that year had fallen unaccountably short, -or the , expences had far exceeded, the Estimates ; as, if his late Right Hon. Friend had shrunk from his duty, either in concealing the extent and amount of the services, or in exaggerating the probable - produce of the public income. The deficiency in the land' and . malt was a regular and annual thing-ever since the - laud and malt duty had been voted; therefore it was not to. be charged as an unaccountable arrear in the Estimates of'the last. year. The extra Charge fbr ordnance was also an annual thing; the deficiency under this head in the last year, though so much as 561;0601. was shert, of the average deficiency.. The amount of this deficien cyin. thepreceding year was 60,0001, It was pi Oba ,ble a deficiency to the same extent wOuld.ocettr at the 'close of this •year, and the Noble LOrd'Would do well to preparehimself to . expe& it. . It would' have been more correct, to have. stated the chargeg - had been inaccurately; he was sure not hividiodsl3.',. described as arrears, rather, as e;Xtiaordinary charges, not likely to occur again: • Sikh was the.million to the East India cola - 1y such the prOVi . sion fc - ) Lord Nelson's family, an. instance Airppgrto,which had occurred - but once in the la'st Century; such was the remuneration for' the loSs of, the ships taken in the Battle of Trafalgar, in - every, one would readily concur..-: Next as. to the subsidy.. The statement of- the Noble - Lord,• in -speaking .of the million required - . by him for tins bead of service, gave it -to' be understood, • that the 2,5 00,1001.• Voted. for the Service had been previously - expended. ,The fat was, however, that there was, on the sth ofJanuary last, 1,080,0001. of this sum in the Exchequer, 500,0001. untouched at- Malta; and '200,0001.at Hamburgh : and though 0)00,0001. of -what -was in' the Exchequer had been .since appropri ated to Navy - Services in the early part of this year; it' was not right to. liemand'a fresk million without an explanation, as if the original grant had been ex ' pended under its properhead in the:last year: • The only casein which it could be Charged; was the falling aaff in the consolidated fund, But it-was probable, from the receipts 'of this quarter, that the.surplus of 4,0000001.. w0u1d..40 yealiza The lafter„, which had been calculated at :300,0001. had prodUced 380;0001. It would tend much to give a fair view of the grants and expenditure *of, each year, if the accounts of both were dude up to, the same period, land the balances on hand carried. to the credit of the next year, and the outstanding demands to the charge. - .At, present, the yor of service ended op' the sth January, and the year cif receipt on the„sth, of April following. He . supposed this ; pra&ice :bad originated in - some years, of great charge, when it was an obje& to have five quarters of receipt to meet the form of elinefialture ; but in faiiiieSS both_ ought to be reduced within the same limits, and he meant shortly to submit to the Houst! some Resolutions to that effea. The Grants now vhted were large 3 they were forthe service of a whole year, and. a great part of that year had already elapsed,• and the charges incumbent On it had been - in many respects 41eff.ayed. Vvltimit intttling thVpreient Admini :4 4,st tti-ation to much credit ' for the teConomy Of which th23y boasted, the Grant's now passed ought, under these circurnststices, to carry them far into the next year. He had offered these observations.i not with a view to oppOSe the Noble Lord's propo sitions, but to do away a wrong impression with re spea to his late Right Hon. Friend; the Noble LorTs predecessor. He complimented the Noble' Lord on the vigour with *Filch' he 'Called forth the energies and resources. Ogle Country, at a period requiring so much exertion. He congratulated the Country on its resources being such as to preclude every idea Of compromising its honour for a false and precarious Security: We should not trust for our security to. any .thing but.our own strength and our own 'firm ness, never building, on that delusive forbearance, to reckon upon which was a confession of weakness, and to their foolish confidence. in which too many Of the once independent nations of the Continent had fallen victims. Lord H. PETTY had not described the deficiency it was necessary now to provide for, as having oc eufred last year,. but as being to be provided for at the end, of the last year, He was sorry be bad not been in the -Houie on Saturday wherysome discus- Sion aroseon - this point. : He had hoped_ that s the ex planation given . - that; day, and the time afforded for reflection since, would have preVented the • subje& from being renewed on : Monday. If ,he had meant to Make amattee of ,Charge of this arrear he would nothaye enumerated the items of .it, nor explained how it had arisen : he would have brought it, for ward•in the apregate,•and included an it as he might have-done 'much of the charges he: had compreheild ed in the Unfunded -.Debt, He 51 - latild state the arrears of grants for the service of• the . last-year re maining on 'hand, sth January, this year,, and the deMands outstanding against them,; • and in doing so he should still think himself justified in.what he had said on- a former .night with respect to the Treaties.' He might everehave put that in a stronger poiht of view; for the calculation was made in the prospea of success, and the' provision, which - was not more than sufficient in the event of total failure; mint have fallen;far.•shOrt• in the event of the ex pedted success. He then, summed up the balances of grants on-hand, on stlr - Januark, which amounted to .2,655,8031.3 and the demands outstanding against them, which amounted lb-7,449,4001. being an ex cess of demand. of 4,793,5971. He. had• merely stated; that these demands were outstanding, and for be . provided for. The 'Right Hon. Gentleman' who had preceded him, would have fell it his duty to aft in the same way, - under the same cireurn stances. If arrears were to 'be provided 'for, he Would 'have felt the propriety of stating them to the House, as he had done; explaining • the nature of them, and shewing • that they were not likely 'to recur again. • The. Hon. Gentleman expressed a' hope that the , grants now proposed would;. with the. economy propcsed by" His Majesty's present Mini sters; cover the ,eXpences for' a long period. He joined the Hon. Gentleman in. that hope;' bpt he had to observe, that, the estimates, now brought forward were principally. such 'as -had been found in the Offices. The late Chancellor Of the , Exchequer had introduced the system of War Takes great. effect; but like every thing else, this system was less perfedt in the 'beginning. Now the tTax was Made to bear on double - the •number of persons ; not poor persons; but persons Well able to pay, but whom it had in Vain been attempted to charge under the present A&s. ,He owed it to the Noble 'LOrd (Sidmouth) who bad introduced the Pioperty:Tax, to say,, that he had revived this great source of re venue after it 'had been absolutely worn out. The Ini:ome:Tax had been mortgaged for eleven years to pay the interest of debts - contraded during the late War. The Noble Lord, had transferred these mortgages, and the Tax on - Property w as tetrad 'a great and lutincumbered resource at the commence ment of the present war The only alteration that was Made now was, to remove the great difficulty that was created by the exemptions, , and to allow. the Cot missioners'the proper means to make' the Tax. produelive, It was an objea equally attend ed to, to afford the relief formerly granted. by the exemptiont•With the greatest possible dare and convenience. The small annuitants who were -the, that objedts of thiS care, would bave only to go be--; fore the next Magistrate and exhibit their proofs; the Mtigis'trate would immediately grant the certificate, on,the transmission of 'which the Commissioners would immediately refund-. Small tradesmen would be 'considered in the next degree to 'small annuitants,; all those who bad the leaSt means 'of. repairing any lOss would be the first considered. With respect to the obsenYationS of his Honourable Friend on the 'restridion Of the cash payments at the Bank, he agreed that things 'could 'not be said to be in their proper situation'; b,ut• oar ation was very different from that of France at the time' of the Mississippi scheme. He could not take upon him to say whether it would •be right to re-establish cash payments _at the •present moment ; but- the'Gentleinen of the 'Batik had' 'never been given, to expect by the present' Government tint it . may not take place at any time'the public interest may require or permit it. 'But he could not agree in any part of what' the Hon. Gent. had said'of the Sinking Fund, which had been, in the whole of its progress a great national benefit. • He would not dire& - any Part of the interest or principal of that Fund to the purposes of current service, because that would be to defraud, the Country of the vast advantages it would produce' 'in the 'course of some years. • tiler was. it the advantages, present or future, that were to be altoget4er - looked to', but also that good faith which was the best 'charaeleristic of this Coun try,. and its best resource in the worst times, and Consistently with which nti part of this - Fund could be diverted from the purposes for which it was stituted. He hoped"for the assistance of - Gentle -men in - equalizing the . burthen; so th i at it may fall alike - on all classes. lie •-assured the Honour- Gentleman behind hifil (Mr, - Francis) That he would listen with attention to every suggestion, par ticularly What should'corne from So respectable a per "son-aS he was. HU . SKISSCENT explained. Lord CASTLEREAGIrhati every disposition to support the efforts the Noble Cord had resolved to mak; 'to draw - forth the resources of the Nation at a crisis ~ yhenexertion was soreciuisite. He had no I"6;e'Ction tooffer to the Noble Lord's Budget. He should haVe buly a few of thoSe suggestions to offer, at a 'future tithe, to''which the Noble-Lord had pro fessed so, willing a disposition to hearken to, With • , . . . rep to , the hrr&vs,.which the Noble Lord bad disclaimed all intention of charging as a deficiency of the last year,, it arose out of incidental payments ,Thr services which had always been left for provision subsequent to the year in which they , bad been per formed. The sums in hand on the sth of January of the grants of last year were 4 ) 460,0001. It was 'not right to .bi-ing in charge against this the' Army dna Navy Eitraordinaries, which were floating de mands that could not be aicertained. They QC:. curred every year; and.probablY there would lie the same room next year to make,thena. matter of charge against the Noble Lord, himself. • Of the 4,000,0001: on hand, only 1,000,0001. had been, applied to the Navy., and that was .to - be returned : there was, in faa, 3,000,0001. on hand above what was .6iirly to be called for. He.accused the Noble Lord of aaing unconstitutionally in .proposing the Ways and Means of the year before the. House had been put in 'pos session Of the Army Estimates : it was }lot enough that the money was still to, .be within the coritroul of . Parliament : no burthens shoUld - be laid but what Were actually called for. ' Here the Noble Lord read a passage from Mr. Haisell's Rocik,'Which "Stated, that it was the duty of the' Chancellor:of the Ex chequer to state. to the Committee of Ways and Means the items of Supply, so as.to shew that n&- thing more was. asked than was wanted--4hat: the House andthe People may be sensible that no bur then was imposed beyond what Os necessary. How .could this be done', when there was no idea of the amount or. description of the - Army we were to. haye--with respect to Which,there was nothing, be fOre the House but a Vague 'opinion ,f the :Noble Lord, that• the expellee of the ArMy would .exceed the grant of the :last year ? The Noble Lord, in faa, Called upon the House to grant;t:B',soo,oool. for the Army, on his word that so much would be wanting. The grant of last year had been so great in : contem , plation of circuinstances : that could not exist this year. In cake of a Dissolution; there would, be no controul of Parliament; the whole . grant.would_ be at the disposal of Ministers. Suppose the expellee Of the. Army to exceed or to fall short of the Noble Lord's opinion, would there not be the mischief either of creating an unnecessary public charge, or a difficulty of timmeial operation to meet the additional expellee ? No necessity had been shewn for. having recourse to such a novel proceeding, and one which might ulti mazely prove in thellighest degree injurious to the Country. That the pecuniary distress of the Trea sury was not so great as to forea . Admi,nistratiOn into the adoption of this measure, was. proved by their having in the early part of the Negotiation for the Loan propoSed:that.the first instalment should remain unpaidfilf the- isthof April. He thought, that it would have been more advantageous for the (ountry had the Loan- not'been contra6tedfor at such an.early period, and it would also have relieved Ministers . from the di lemma in which they had unnecessarily involved themselves. ;With regard to the . situation of the Cotintry, hoWei - er arduous and distressing the,office, of the Noble Lord Might beitind he was aware of all. its difficulties, he could not agree in considering it in . such a glOOmy point Of view as the Hon. Gentleman. who had opened the debate. Compare what its was at the close of what he must call a :glorious Ad ministration of his late Right ,Honourable Friend, with what he found it. when he f rst came into office. At that 'time 'the Taxes had- ceased 'to be produ4ive;the conitheree and manufaEtUres of the Country were daily dinfiniShing:' N6lg the Revenue bad increased beyond the most :sanguine ,expeala ticm, and Was yearly groWing larger.....Tbe Sinking hood was an unperishable 'Monument to that'great man. Had it not been .established the Country would indeed have been in a - ±very' different state. Theßevenue of the last year was 48 Millions, that of the present in all probability would be 55 millions; and he trusted that the period would soon arrive when 'the Loan to be contra&ed for for the year would amount to little more than the pioduce of the Sink ing. Fund. 'Rapid; indeed; -would ,be the liquida tion of the debt by its operation' in Peace. It was but a just debt to the Memory of his lamented friend to "state, that never was a system of Government so complete in all its branches (and he contended as natell so in its military establishment as in any other point), handed over in so proud a Situation to ,his successors of that of Great Britain. :This had im posed all additional resporisibility on those succes sors. It had imposed on them. the 'duty of not im pairing the etre& of his labours and genius by any capricious changes; but, on the contrary, of vigour ously prosecuting his system, and by that means ,Of upholding the Country In his financial arrange ments he thought that the NOble'Lord deserved well ,of his Country for having done' so, and indeed such was the energy and excellence of that system, that it, was impossible forany Chancellor of the ENehequer. _ to deviate from it with safety: Mr. V:ANSITT3RT, adverting to the opinion of Mr. Hatsell, as quoted by the Noble Lord who:had just sat down, observed, that all : that -was said by that writer was, that the WayS.and Means ought not to exceed the Supply. The ilia now,, was, that they, were short of the Supply ; for itwas not fair to em brace ; in the consid4atiOn of the subjed the War Taxes, realiZed at different and distant,periods,.and the application of which had not been detetiilined. AS to the statement of the Military Expenditure, the Army Estimates - for five months were befog the House and in 1802 a precedent occurred of the Navy Estimates not havin g been' presented until af ter the Ways and Means had been voted. He con cluded by describing and, 'extolling the advantageS, Which the Country derived from the permanent War Taxes and the , Sinking Fund. Mr. RUSE could not agree with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the War Taxes should' be put out of sight in considering this question. The produc of the Property Tax, for instance; came ,immediately under the . appli.ption of the Treasury'. He could not, therefore, but repeat What he had said when the first intimation of the Ways and MeanOeing to be voted, L betbre the whole of the year's expendimre had been laid before the House, was given, namely, that it was a viohdion of a constitutional principle. The'precedent of 1892;was of the Right Hon. Gen tleman's own' making. : Avery bad one it was, and it was hardly fair to argue, that because it • had escaped observation, it ought therefire to serve., as a model. . However, let it pass, he,only trusted there would be ,no repetition' of such a procealte. Ile proceeded to take a summary view of the new Taxes, professing himself disposed to avoid creating any (lit - - ficulty in the way of them. First in - time conhrina tion Of, and rendering permanent the Duty oil Wine, he asserted that this was not intended by" his - late Right Hon. Friend, 'who certainly Meant to propose •its repeal at the 'end x)f the War. It haa - affeded the' , -e6nsu;uption of the article, and he vas apprehenaive that-the Noble Lord would find that the deficiency thus Created in the old and The new .Duty • Would amount to two or three hundred thousand pounds. Next, as to the additional Tax on Iron : this was sort& time ago in thvontemplation cf his late Right Hon. Friend. At 'that period very ' ,great pains haa been.taken to-ascertain the quantity that would be liable to the operation of an impost, and at 20s. a ton it was then considered sanguine to eStimate the probable produce at 120,0001. H, feared 'that the Tax on Tea would- fall 11 - 6;...vi1y on the lower orders, many individuals of which t'-eie accustomed to use it as beverage at -- dinner, well as fOr an evening refreshment. The „present Tax on Tobacco would make the duties on that article amount to foitir times its real value. It was unnecessary for him to point out to the Noble Lord ' the temptation which this :circumstance 11::..1J out to smuggling.- He entered into-a detailed history. of his late Right Hon. Friend's regulation Oti•tl..;• Accounts and Finances of the Country, and contended' that it was inipossiblelor the Noble Lord to give greater publicity to them than'that which they had already - obtained. It Was in the power of every man in the Country to know as much-about thew as the Chan- '= • Cellor of the Exchequer. The projca of a Sinking • . Fund had .been attempted first by Lord :oXfora, and then by Sir . Robert Walpole; bat neither of - these '- Ministers hail the -firmness to persevere, like - his- la= mented Friend;: in thiS adyantageotis-system. His - •e• Adthinistratidn - had, indeed, beeti — Most beneficial • and most glorions to the. Country. 'ale niAinber of Ships taken from the ditrerent Er etnies - of Great Britain during its continuance was greater than the whole-all - lease - captured between the Revolution' and the commencement of that pericid.- -Almost all the Colonial Possession's of our EnemieS In the East•and WeSt Indies had fallen into•our hands, the I 3 itish Flag-vas every where triumphant, and there was no period in the History of Europe in which- the cha raa-fer of the Country , • Stood, more highly- in every part of the world.' Arduous as the 'Noble Lord's situation no doubt that he would, find the resources 'of the COuntry•adeqnate to its neces sities; andhe hoped, that whenever he should leave Office, be might be able to render as good an .account Of his trust as •his great,Predecessen • • Mr. FRANCIS and Lord HENRY PETTY severally explained. Mr LQNG assured' the Noble Loyd, that in the observations WhiCh heldd madebn Saturday, 'lie by no means intendo' to insinuate any charge of want Of fairness in iris statement, but merely to remove . the' impression:_ which' ertainly had been made by the--remarks of the Noble Ler& relative to the sup posed deficiency, -of ..r.,;oo;000l. • Mr. JOHNSTONE Was conyinc&l that the No - - ble Lord would 'tfeeil: = e himself if he thought that no:similar deficiency would take place,- as Inuch a 4 is certain Noble,lA)rd, not now a 'Member of this House (Lord Sidmouth) had deceived himseif When. , heimagined'that the' war could be carried 'on hy - a Loan of -27 millions for the current year: rlY:ei:ier of these Noble Lords had calculated on Misceliantas Services and, Expellees. - This appeared tollitir to be a Pebate of Paradoxes. Were the Right Hon ; Se cretary of Statea*the opposite bench, he was con vinced that, great as were his talents, nod ,powerful as Was elaquance,.. language, wonid sink under him in his attempt to ridicule the pr,bpi)::iition Which he had 'this evening supported; namely, 'that the People would prefer a Sudden increase: of the Pro perty Tax to 10: per cent.. to a moderate-and gradual advancement. Mr. HALEY ADDINGTON defended his Noble ,relation fro:n ,the imputation of false calculation cast on- him by the Hen.: Gentleman. 'What the Noble Lord had said was, in advertingto the extraordinary and rapid increase of the Sinking Fund, that - in a short time, aided by that' Fund, the war might be • carried on With a Loan equal, to that amount. Mr. JQHtSTONC explained. , Mr. STURGES BOURNE observed, that one million five hundred theusaild - pbtilids 'was remain ing, at the. commencement of the, present year, - of. • the money voted for Subsidies, - and wished to know why that surn had .not•been: included in the Noble Lord's WayS and Xleaus.? In his - opinion the Supa - . . plies voted would be found too large, and the esti- . , mate of the produce Of the War Taxel too low. Adverting to the - Property Tax, he declared that he had totally misconceived the Right Horst ; Gentleman. opposite (Mr. Fox) on this subject last Session. He then .thought, that that Right Hon. Gentleman ob jo4led:to the.increase of the Property Tax; but it seemed that it. was not so; it seemed • that •his ob jotion vas that Administration did.not double it. Lord H. PETlT.rei)lied, that he was not at that trioinent aware how the sum themtioned by the Hon.- Gentleman had been disposed of. Mr.:Bß9OKS:spoke at some length against the TaX on' Sugar. The TAX would fall on . the Planter, and not on oe Consurner. The first Tax was 3s. a hundred .weight ; it was subsequently increased ; and if,the presentduty were added, it would amount to 13s. and yet the price of Sugar was now lesS than What it was on the" imposition of the first duty. The T Operation of this Tax must be-deemed, peculiarly se vere, when it was recollected how much several of our West India Islandi had suffered by the • visit of the French last Summer. Mr. VA NS I TMIRT , although he thought the• discusSion of the. Taxes would be better timed when the. Bills were brought in„would yet say a few words in answer to' what had been urged against them. The 'duty on wine would not in•lns opinion fall short, as. had been - prediaed by >the Honourable Gentleman opposite. That on iron would, be very, adVantageons, and he was sure that the produce had notbcen over rated. He could not see itytkie. case of the tax on sugar, why, departing from all ordinary instances, the burden should fall on the planter`; instead of the con sumer. It , was his intention inithe cuu,a of the' evening to. move. for . some average returns of the two last mentioned, articles,; which VN,4>uld 'enable the flonse to judge better on the subjeft. - • • Mr. ROSE explained. adverting to. the statement that. had been made by the Noble Lord' of the uncertainty , which attended the Subsidiary Treaties , ' said, that it was impossible that any thing could be more simple. I. was stated that 121. 10s. ptitintun ihou;d be paid per man as soon as he took the field, to cease «h 4.1.: " 1 ~a ~-r~ ~.