The Sun. — London, England, 1806-06-07 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLI4IVIE,NT -F.roqs.B 0P PEERS. FRIDAY, .11.5 NE The Trish First• Fruits Bill was. read a third time and pasSed; and a Message -sent to the House of CoMt - nous to acquaint them therewith.. The Property Tax -.Bill, the IrislvvSugar Bill; and the IriSi Additional Force Repeat Bill passed' through 7 Cornrai.ttees, and were reported. 2 , Lord AUCKLAND presented the Report .of the Board of trade made ni 1784, relative to the Trade between' the:West Indies and'America; which was 'palered to lie on the Table and to be printed., Mr.' BAKER, :Mr. ADUGDALE', and several other Members of the llousY of Commons, brought the Irish Starlit) Duty Bill and four Private Bills ; .I;which• were read a first time. , . _ Mr. IRVING, from . .the :Custom-house, presented Returns , re,lative to the commerce of Dominica ; whtch were ordered to lie on the (Table, anu to be printed. Strangeis were ordered to withdraw, and, we un derstood, the consideration Of the Evidence adduced on the Trial of Lord. V iscouni Melville was resunied., Their - Lordships continued in discussion till eleven o'clock, when the further consideratiOn of the sub , jea was deferred till MOnday, oh which day we un derstood the ittiges were again ordered - to attend. Adjourned till tn-rnorrow (this day). HOUSE OF COMMONS. JU,NIE 6. • Lord MUNCASTER. took the Oaths and his Seat, 0 51 his ele6tion for Cumberland, in the room of Sir . , .chael.. Le Fleming., deceaSed.. A Message from the Lords informed the House, that their Lordships had agreed, to the Fruits. Bill, y the . ...Manoli2st.cr Road Bill, the 'lrish Ctistonis and'Excif , e Bill, the TriSh Mart Ite&ulation 13ill; and the Glasgow Port Bill, without any Amend =ems: . . Mr.lrving, froth. the Custom-House, pre - sented an EstiMate of all the Duties en Customs charged and put-standing on thebtb H of January, 1805, and 1806, Te§pe6tively. 7 ---Orderea to lie_on the Table, and - to - be' printed. • - - A Person frOm.the Tax-Office presented an Ac count of all' balance::; in the bands 'Of. toe Receiver- General of the_ Land-Tax in Scotland.—Ordered to lie on the Table. • - • A Person from the . Pay-Ct ce. presented, pursuant to order of the House, -Copies of all Official Letters. from the Payinaster-General of the Forces since the 14th of Suly, 1804, relative to the delay of Regi mental Accounts;—Ordered to lie o ‘ 2. the Table.. ~ Ordered;on the Motion, of Mr. VANSITTART, that there be laid : before the Houk the Report of Expe ents made to ascertain the relatiVe value of Walt,. Barley, and Big, in 'Scotland and England, trans mitted by the Board of Excise in' North Britain to theCOrricnissiphers of the - Treasury. This Report 'Wa's then presented by . Mr: - V,NSITTART, . and or dered to be 'printed. Mr. HOBIIOUSE brought up -tne 'Report .of, the ZoMmittee of the 'whole,HouF s e on the Aci imposing certain duties of excise on spirits distilled in Scou-. ' land. • The Resolutions for 'repealing the duties -al , ready existing, and ftir granting others in lieu-there 'af, were. agreed and a Bill ordered pursuant thereto. • The .Dublin.l'aving Bill was rePorted, and ordered • to be read a third trine on Monday next. The Irish, -Malt Ditty Bill passed through the same stage. To be read a thiyd, time an Monday.. YAN SITTART presented, pursuant to order of the Flonse,. several lists of public accounts, audited and unaudited. 7 ---Ordered to lie on the Table; PRi VATE BREWING, - . k • Lord HENRY PETTY having moved that the,Order p• — f the Lay for the House -going intg a Committee of Snpply be .read, Statqd that his *Et in doing so was' to move that thP House do on Monday next resolVe into said Committee. In proposing this delay.he. • NV a ' S not aanatechy any conviction that the• Ditty on Private Brewing; which he had formerly proposed, . Nk is a Taa. which ought to be relinquished ; for; should it be necessary, it was one, of the -propriety Of which he wa - S so well convinced . that he should Eave_no hesitation in bringing it: forward next year, by -which time it might 'have been well weighed, 'how' it might be imposed' in the most equal and least oppresi,ive 'manner. The .strongest necessity; however, called 'for a substitute, in the mean time, • and. his attention had been directed, either- to an Ad ditional Duty on Malt, or to an addition to the. As ' 'sealed Taxes, the hitter of which he was inclined to prefer. - ; Can Monday,. therefore, he should move,. in • a.Cornipittee of- Supply,, that the 'House. do grant to . His' Majesty an additional 10 per cent. on the Assess- Taxes. He should take the opportunity of the introdu6lion - of that Bill; to consolidate with it the iiliawanoe.3 or abatements from' income proposed tO be made to ~persons ' having 'large . fwtmilies ,and incoineS, • - I;:7r.CO.WE (of Norfolk) said, however much the Noble Lard might approveof the' tax which he had agreed, - for the present_a't least, to abandon, he for one - drsltked it the more the more he considered it. Vie thought we 'could'not, at the present moment,, have a tax more hateful or disagreeable. It gave • him sincere pain :to oppose any - measures proposed by those men of wit - we principles he had the highest opinion, and with whom, on the other -side of the liatise, he had_ uniformly vated for -the last thirty years . . It was more particularly painful, when he considered the state of the Country=a state to which,' iniquestionably, it had been reduced by titherS, not by the present Ministers. Heabjeeted, • however, to the Tax. on Private Brewing, as con ferring al bdon on one clasS of men - to the prejudice 7 0 . the people in general. , ' ..Sir R. BurPoN did.not think.any odium could attach id the Noble Lord frotp giving up‘the tax for • ;he sake of reviving- it next year in a' less objection able form. To titz addition to the ASsessed Taxes, he should conceive,'' Ifirdly.any. objedion could lie in, the present situation-of the country, where some adthtianal 'taxes Were necessary, as 'such addition must fall in an .equal p,repertion, according to -the prelent • Asses4 : d.Taxes, On all. ' • - . • Lord HENRY • PETTY, 'alltidino• to certain mis representations wine bLcu trizkie as to Ais en ea- . irodring to introduce the Excise into privatefaitilies, declareLl• that nothing Was ei'er faiiher from his in tention, 'HP had nO"hesiiati6ii.in 'saying,; • that 'he '• scarcely Conceive necessity whiori 'could warrant such a step. Such had always be.;:n his nion, and such - be, still , maintained. He: had only submitted it as an option,to those persons 1:Vho might prefer .it to the Licence, as Sup:using it toe :'more fayonrable mode of being taxed. , Mr. BAKER said, if ,such had been the meaning of the Noble Lord; he should have laid 'on the-As sessment° first, and, if it` had not been agreed to, then given the option of the Excise: ' LONG - Supported a similar opinion. ' Mr. FOX said, it would be a desirable thing if the public and ,private brewer, could be put on an. equal, footing: His Noble Friend did not introduce the EXcise as the mode, of leVying'the .Tax, but merely as an option. Latterly it hadlaeen 1113 iii= tention, as 'indeed he. had given notice, to take awaythe'Excise even as'anoption,and he was heartily glad be had now come to. the resolution of Post porting 'the Taxentirely. He (,Quid not refrain, how ever, from reminding Gentlemen that another Tax had been given up in ;onsequence of the opposition whie4,:it - had experienced.. They would recoiled whether that Tax was or was not more objedionable than the present, and they would consider the prd priety ofstrongly opposing a Tax not altogether ob je6tionable, when there was no security that one less objediOnable might easily be found to replaCe This Country, he begged to remind the House, was not in such a situation , as to have an option, of un objeaionable Taxes. - --•- Mr. IPILBER FORCE returned his hearty thanks to the Noble Lord for the great attention he had :at all times :shown to the seeming wishes of the House. Nothing could be a happier feature in: the chara6ter of . a Minister than being open to. conviction where his own opinion might at any tilde-seem to have been erroneously formed. The proposed addition to the, Aisessed Taxes he liked:exceedingly: He thonght it would' be better, however, if it did not ge through the whole; The tax on Male Servants, .particularly, he thought, might; with great propriety, bear the hddition. • • Mr. "JOH STO IVE expressed hiS regret that, af ter hlivirVg'abandoned One tax, the Noble Lord should again feel himself under the necessity of abandoning the substitute for it, while nothing had been done to defray the Loan of the year, except the Wine :any; 'Ailivich was merely a transfer, and no additional _revenue, .and a small Duty on Appraisements. Ire Was' sorry the Noble Lord had not fortitude to go •lon with this tax, as he conceived irto be nothing more than imposing on the rich that which was already a . burthen on the poor. In support. of this assertion -he read. the. Opinion ,of Dr. Smith in his Wealth of Nations. Mr. T. T JONES gave great credit to the Chan cellor or the - tx.chequer for having' withdrawn the tax. -As the Secretary for Foreign Affair inAly served, this was not ,a time when we. could have any -great option., The question now was, What is the lesser evil ? In his ()Pillion the Noble Lord ought to revert to the Iron Tax.. Sir..\l% WYNNE approved of the relinqui , dunent of the - tax: He stated that was only one pub lic brewer in the-whole principality' of Wales. • • Mr.' W. SMITH alsogave Credit to the Noble Lord for Withdrawing the tax. He would have supported it, ,but he was convinced it would not have" bi-en found produetive while the Assessed . Taxes, on the 'other hand, could be,etic.tCivally collected: Sir W.' WiNNE explain&l. _ _ • _ Mr. : ROSE maintained that the Tax would not have been produelive. Many people wouid .have declined private brewing, and as muCh would have been lost oh the deficiency in the malt duty; as •would have been realized by the Tax, as the quantity Con sumed by the plibiic brewer w ould not have risen in anything like the proportion in which it was given .up by the prhate .brewer. . From an investigation which some time ago ,took place, it was ascertained, that With the. public brewer eight bushels of malt made two barrels and a half of 'strong beer ;..w here, 'as it was khown that with the, private breWer - teri bushels.only produeed one hogshead, being one half as much again-as a.barrel. So the 'private brewer, in the quantity used by hirn,. compensated. for the duty on the publiC brewer. • Mr. If HITI3EIfiID declared, that the concern to which . he belonged did net produce their beer in 'the proportion stated by the Hon. Gentleman . who spoke last. So far as he recolleffed, the Hon. Gen tleman's statement was not, even - corre&, for - the quantity there alluded to was not 3i barrels,. but 31 barrels. But even in that proportion he asserted that the ealCulation.did nut apply to the house in which -he was concerned. Surely, however, it must be seen that the public brewer must know little of his trade, and make little of his capital, if lie Could not produce .a better article out of a smaller quantity of malt and hops than a private brewer could. Mr. HARVEY CONiBE ' corroborated the statement of Mr. Whitbread ; when the, Conunittee was fixed for Monday,. MUTINY BILL. • • . Mr. WINDRAN having moved the third reading of the Mutiny Bill, • :11 7 4 LL ACE rose to express his disapprobation' of the new regulations introduced in the Bill, which he conceived to be unnecessary, and as only tending to preclude... His Majesty from the exercise of his pre rogative, because, if be refuSed his assent to the new measurth,_ he must withhold it at the expence of letting;loose the Army. He ;,did not see what•oc casion there was for 'making the di‘stindion between the pledge given by the, Crown and that given by Parliament, but to degrade 4 .the Rdyal prerogative. Neither did he see why Parliament should now be called on to give their sandion to a measure Which they might afterwards feel it their duty to accuse Ministers for adopting. He did not know which most to• admire, the rashness of the measure itself, or the meanness with which the Right Honourable Gentleman had staved it off from time to time— to a time, he hoped, in which he would tio longer have a share in the Government of the Country. What did the Plan hold out to the existirig'Army ? That they should be relieved ? NO. They bad fought our battles, but they were to remain in a state of cou fessed slavery, and were to receive no benefit from the new regulations. He should have less obje6lion' to the measure if the'nien to be raised were to be placed in separate Corps. But no two_ men stand ing next each other in the ranks may know that the ot'.e is bound for life, while the other, who has ::cry ea a shorter period, must be d'iselinged few years. As to the idea that a better descr.44:ien, of - Men : would be procured, he did iot:believp jt.i, nor did he like the mixture of soldier:and It'had been said, if the measure did Aii)t,succeed, - it mild easily he rescinded. Of this, however, he was not so much _convinced - , It Must first have gone on for seven or ten.years, and then, impolitic as it might be foUnd to have been, probably 70,000 or 047 en ion,oop men , would fall to be discharged. .111r.-:WILBERFORCE gave. the measure his most hearty approbation, though he did not pretend to he capable of judging of it on a military principle. He had, however, given the subje& every attention in his power, and he hadiconsulted every publication Which had appealed on the subject, particularly a very forcible and ingenious. work of Gen. Stewart, and another by a Gentleman whose name did not appear, but in which the subject: was Very- ablyldis cussed. The: great question was; how we were to in crease:, our regular Army ? We Might ditfer as to the amount to which it ought to be raised,but still we must increase it, that we might be able-to resist the Enemy with wLom we have to contend; and, with a com manding Naval Porce, ocr Army might be direEt• ed to great and multiplied objects. The great ob je& of every man \Vas—hope. It had been stated by every writer oil the snbjeCt, that. it was not the possession of . an object, but the . pursuit of it, by which the minds of men were Most strongly in fluenced. From the .present , measure he expeeted much, not as afibrding any positive inducement in itself, 'but as tending to remove obstacles which -now stood in the Way. We were naturally inclined to balanco things in our minds, and if we saw that .there was no possibility of returning if we 'once embarked in a partictilae service, that must operate as a serious obstacle to the embracing of it. This obstacle, the present measure seemed to him to • retrieve; and to o,pen'tci the view of- those entering into our Army that great original induce - - ment to which he had alludeck There must be, be sides, some positive inducement, which,' probably, it would be somewhat difficult to determine upon. One such positive inducement; he should suggest,- Might be the chanee, of a speedy rise, and 'introduc 7 tion of greater variety-of rank, thereby enabling them, in their different degrees, to jud,giof 'their situation, not by _*Lat it really is e but by com paring it with the• situations. of those around.— He shotild probably have , liked the, , plan better if, instead of 'giving all the, additional pay at the end -of 7:or 14 years.bence, a small part of it had been held out to individuals at an earlier period, to be diS posed of. in Oath way as military men might think the best. The more that the honorary marks of distinCtion wereintroduced into our Army. the bet ter. Every person who .might .indulge the hope; that in a very short time he should be deco rated with some badge of distinCtion:' He night exPeet to raise himself in this way, probably, during the first or second year of his service. , -When We . looked into military- history; and - saw how many and glorious exPloit's had been achieVed on this principle, we must be astonished that it had been so little: attended to , in this. Country. During the laSt Administration it had been intended; to advance to some species of distintuion of this-kind a great body of our naval men, and he hoped it wbuld. not be lost sight of by . ,the Noble Lord now at :the head of rile AdMiralty. These he mentioned merely; as matters of detail, which would be more pro- heilj diSeussed• on some other-.occasion.. As to the objection started relati.ve to the King's pre rogative, let it :be -considered that Parliament . had for - years; been in the habit of discussing •ques:- t ions of this sort.; and, in that situation, let it be con sidered, Whether if Ministers at their oWn, handhad gone -into any great and important change in the nature Hof the service, they would not have justly sUbjeded theinselVes 'to a charge .of presumption ? He was indeed surprised to hear this objection made by his Honourable Friends neat him, .who must, in this case, have been depriVed of- the oppor tunity of expressing their disapprobation of what they conceived so niisehievous an innovation. Im pression, in his opinion, went a great .length too in matters of this kind, and must-not.that impress Sion be more properly direEted from the discussion which-the measure lad received in this - House, than it could if thb measure had been merely . an Ad of the' Executive : Government ? How revolting must it be to the feelings to'think that a man who may have enlisted in an ungparded moment must be doomed to continue so: during the whole of his life; and must it not in such a case be almost an insult fo a man to tell him that such was his own - voluntary ? This - was not merely a measure of humani ty, but, as is coda - non in such cases, policy went hand in hand with it—Great and solid be nefits would be derived from , it. It was like ly to improve the tone: and cliara&er .; of the Army in a .very conside;able degree. If we look ed to other times, who they were who then' distin gnished themselves particularly, 'we would find they were uniformly the: ArMies of free : countries. In ancient Greece and Rome, and in England, We would find that the exploits of their Armies almost always corresponded with the slate of freedom which prevailed in,the countries ; - and in proportion as either lost tlseir liberties, 'that their military cha mEter declined., It was after the 'obtaining of Magna Charta that the military spirit - or. England first . shone conspicuous ; and that Samel•nation, was',formerly conquered by a Norman invader, hay .ing establishe her internal freedom, eve .had- since seen able at all times to co-operate with the poWer ful and numerous - Nations on the opposite-shore,. and he trusted, by Maintaining her liberties unimpaired, . she would continue so to do - till the latest. ages: En., listmcnt for life, in his opinion, went to takeaway part of this liberty, which it was impossible to say could be the case when liberty was given of retirin g , if they Manned. On the other hand, when this 'option was given, a very different feeling would be produced ; the Soldier would fight with fresh energy, would be found; 'a's it were, new beings, and would achieve new and extraordinary actions. The great success which' bad for a consi . derable time attended the' French - arms, he contend ed,had proCeeded from that enthusiastic. sparleof free dom which had, however ill direeted, been awakened that. country. But could it be expeCted long to con, tinue under thepresenf Government, when the peo ple found that they were greater slaves than before ? Not - all the rewards held out to them would be sufficient to enable them long to - contend with free men, when their Constitutiowcame to operate on : their minds . in the same way as our Constitution may be pr . suened'to operate on the minds 'of the people of tbi Conntry, He, therefore, differed in opinion from ihos'e Gentleinen w;io would separate the cha raeters of Soldier and Citizen. It WO. only because England a SOldidr was a Citizen, and a Citizen • was a Soldier, that he - figured to himself t a tages. to •which' he had alluded. On the h e expecled very considerable benefits- from the sure. He shOuld only trespass on the indolgen ae of the House, while he shortly alluded to - two or three general ? observations which had been - made an d first, as to the. Opinions of the General Officers, though he should have• been perfealy well Pleased to see them, be did not think it a ma tter of great importance to such a country,as this , 'where every man was More or less a, judge of milit a ry matters. As to the objeion, s alion, that the measures could ne ver b e. retreaten from, he,could not see there was any thing in it. He would be for giviig' the measure a much ,longer 'experiment than' hisfloe. Friend near him (Mr. Bankes). He would be inclined to give it a trial of ten or twelve years. But, indeed, the experiment was not a new one. It had been tried, and no eVil, feashad been found to result from it during the Ame rican war (a Cry from the Opposition that there the dis charge was. not to take place during the war,). Th at he admitted; but still itdiel - not alter thc . caSe: The re the man for limited and unlimited service stood by each other's Side,. and might not the Ate by to the other, 'there .as well as here, " I am a miserable ' wretch to be kept berg in the Army during the whole of nay, life, while you are to return home at: the end of the . war ?" • Yet no such efTea as this *as produced. lie felt 'on one part of the sub., •jed - a difference of opinion froth every person who had delivered his sentiments in this House; and it w as as to the existing part of our Army. He would . propose some modification even as to it ; such as drawing lots fof a certain number Of them to re turn home at the end of a War. This he proposed for no other reason but to increase their alacrity, as well as that of the others. .Not because he supposed they would feel that any grievance existed :is to them ; much the reverse ; they were the only persons who would .immediatly begin to feel the sweets of the. measure. They would feel,. by enter ing immediately on their additional pay, that Parlta inent: had not forgotten them. As to the charge of its being a theory, that, he thought, was gone Never any system could be said 'more to rest on ex.: perience. As to the navy, he hoped something of the. same kind would, be doge: for the wives and families of that class-of men, whq so eminently de= served of their Country. On the sUbjeet of the Co- : 'lollies, he declared his.couviaioo that the . abolition of the Slave Trade, by doing away in some measure the barbarism pf that unfortupate race, when the Whites would not require to be proteaed•against their. own slaves more thin against their enemies, would de, Inure for the amelioration of' the CO!onial Service than any thiog'else that - Could be devised. On the whrle;-he-dectered- that the pre - sserif iiiehare met with his. approbation more in the main than any other which, - had been proposed i ..as being' tifore cal culated to render a Soldier k great and glen - lOW Oa-, racier. HILEY ADDINGTON complained of dip injustice -which had been done to his Right Hon. Friend, in calling his Plan mere theory and specula tion_ .H.L.3,v.as--,surpri6ed to-hear this objection from those Gentlemen who - had , been commentini; Hi terms of 'fisapprobatioti•on:the : time which hiS flight Hon. Friend ,had taken to consider and digest his plan. They wished, perhaps; to. goad him on to bring - forward some theory or . speculation which, perhaps, weuld be Imre conformable to their desires. The measure, hoWeVer, was one 'which - had *ll adopted by the %chute. of the Executive Govern:- mlntt,•and every one of than was personally re sponsible for it : he himself was willing. to •risic his reputation with the Country Upon its success, with regard to which he was much more sanguine than his Right Hon. Friend was. With regard to t4P opinions of the Military Officers, he believed the nunibers were equal on . each side ; but then, if they had been produced, they would not have ap plied to the case before the House, which contained many modifications which had not been submitted to them. He concluded by urging the necessity Of an augmentation of our Army, since Franco had almost ail that part Of Europe between-the Baltic and Adriatic under her influence; and contended that his. night Hon, Friend's Plan was the best calculated to effect that obje6t. • General TAg - ILETON, in answer to Mr. Wil berforce,, maintained that our Army at present had an every occasion distinguished itself, and there, fore there was no necessity for improving its • tone and charkter. As to energies imparted by ftee dam, of which so much had been said,: be begged of the House to consider the exolbits of the Armies of Bonaparte, which certainly could not: hate been animated by this , sentiment. As to the limited sere vice during the American War, he approved of this; and it would be a very proper thing just now to pro-. cl* 200;000 men to serve during the War. But theli)resent projeft was totally different from that, He expressed his strong disapprobation . also of the lottery among the soldiers, to -which the Hon. Gen tleman alluded. But when the lion. Gentleman spoke of the Trade, as conneaed with this business, he perfealy understood hits. The titan. General proceeded then to:comment en the Plan itself; awl contended, from-the -example of the `Swiss, and the mode of condnee which had been found necessary to adopt' towardS.tbein bv De Rolle, that the principle of limited service would, relax the discipline of the soldierS. The French, it was:allowed, possessed great military ardour, and yet' conscription was necessary to get soldiers among them ; and it was romantic therefore to hope, that we could here .completely succeed by the ordinary 'recruiting. With regard to the'allusions to Agin court; Dettingen, and FontenOy, and'ancient•dis-, cipline, these .topics were -entirely i n applicable , as the mode of warfare was changed ; a nd all this thorefore was, to use the Lawyers p h ra se, blinking the question. The -system' would not answer for the Colonies, as the men would be discharged when they were seasoned. This measure would certainly excite discontent, as more was done for the recruit than for the old soldier. He'hoped, therefor e ' , that the, Plan' would be stopped, e i t h er -here or in the other House. Mr. WILI3ERFORCE explained. The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND thought that there was so much in this 11 - was not entirely military, that any person /_ll safely give an opinion upon it ; but it he bad had safely s any doubts on the subje&, the Hot? . , 6 d h• P. which Speech would have relieved him, and ceOciPcd. . de tat that he might speak The question itself into two parts—the one relating to ti . !e . moue T i