The Sun. — London, England, 1806-04-23 00:00:00

masse. What his V.:gilt 'don. Friend bad said on this point amounted only to this, that lithe mode of training by the levy en masse should be peculiarly , -hard upon the richer and higher-classes, rather tha n upon those haw.' them, they should have the means' of exempting themselves in a way natural to the aich, by expending a part of their wealth in a species of service more chargeable to themselves. It may be matter of doubt,whether the having of 200,000 men, not however 200,000 men sok-Iy, but 200,000 by rotation, till the whole population of -the country should be trained. may be advisable, was a fair ques tion, and the Hon. Gentleman would, have an op portunity upon that question to rettad.allthose opi nions he had formerly urged in support of its prin ciples on the passing of the levy-en-masse A&. He may, if he please, condemn this mode of proceeding as not advisable ; but he could not speak of it as in- . suiting: When the whole strength of the Country was to be called forth, as in case of . invasion; he, though as much inclined to the indulgence of free will as . any, could_ not possibly suppose there would be any reludance or falling back in any, description oldie people. - However the sentiments of his Hon. Friend, which had been-so clearly stated in his ex planation, had been tortured, for the purposes of the Hob. Gentleman opposite, he was_ glad the speech of the Hon: Gentleman this night bad given hini the 'opportunity of declaring, that there was no inten tion to diminish the numbers of the Volunteers, but to' diminiih the expence ; and.whether that tion was wise or nowise— s there, was nothing in it to inflame the blookof any one. He had heard that the intended measure had produced some little emo tion in the country at first ; but that it had been suppressed as soon as any persons of consideration had the opportunity of taking notice of it. The Hon. Gentleman said, it would be unwise in the Volunteers to give way to such emotioos, as they would furnish ground of accusation fin their . enes Mies : Whom the Hon. Gentleman meant to describe as their enemies he was at a loss to say ; and that they would 'be taken advantage of by those who wished to suppress them.• He could not, from the tendency of the Hon: Gentle Man's speech, be at a loss • to say whom he meant, by this last allusion ; but he was at a loss for any ground for the Hon. Gentleman to insinuate such a charge. There May be ditierenees of opinion in Parliament as to the. policy of the measure; and if exertions to that-died were made, there aray be discontents in the coun try, and of course - among the Volunteers ; but he was satisfied that among the Volunteers in particu lar there was no such discontents as the Hon. Gentle man wanted to give the House to believe. - Mr. PERCI,VAL, in explanation, said, he may have misunderstood the meaning of the Right Hon: Secretary, as it was now, explained. But from the words:used, and the concomitant circumstances, of allowing no Drill Serjeants, no inspeotino . Field Offi cers, 'no permanent duty, he left it to the House to judge whether lie was not warranted in making the interpretation. The Right Hon. Gentleman may say he had explained himself to mean, by relaxation of discipline, only a redudion of the days of exercise; but there had been no misinterpretation of what he had said, farther than what it was naturally calculated to suggest till explained. No wilful misrepresenta tion was charged. The Right Hon. Secretary who had spoken. last possessed a key to the Right Hon. Gentleman's meaning, which he did not pos sess : but he appealed to the sHouse for the fairness of the meaning he had assumed,'befbre lie was cos reded by the explanation of this night. He was glad, that he had been in any way the instrument of drawing out the declaration, that it vas, not the in tention of His Majesty's Minister's to diminish the Volunteer Force. Mr. FOX in explanation said, the Hon. Gentle- Man was equally called upon to acquit His Majesty's Ministers of having done any thing Offensive to-the Volunteers. L6rd CASTL EREAGH had never heard any speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman's with more pleasure than that- syhichs he had now closed. Whe ther from: then-discontents expressed in the House, or those expressed out of it,. or _from ;whatever cause, the Bill brought forward was . extremel dif ferent from the opening view of the Right Honour able Gentleman who had brought it forward. He wished that the Amendment would be carried still further, and the -branch .of the military establishment appropriated to foreign service, would also escape the innovating - asp of .the Right Hon. Gentleman ; and that the destructive reform lie meditated would be s sacrified either to the public disapprobation, or the Right Hon. Gentleman's own better considera tion. He should be sorry to pin any man to a particular expression that may have escaped him in the warmth of , debate ; but the expression alluded to was too distind to be liable to misubderstanding or misin terpretation. The Right Hon. Gentlernan had ex pressly spoken of loosening the discipline of the Vo lunteer Force. The Right Hon. Gentleman had besides opened his speech with lamenting, that the stage was occupied by the Volunteers. The Right Hon. Gentleman may not have been prepared .to proceed to the immediate dissolution of the Volun teer Force; but he called on:the House to recoiled, that the Right Hon. Gentleman, in agreeing to grant . clothing -for this year, expressly Withheld himself from- any -pledge to grant it in any future year. He called on the-Right Hon. Gentleman to say whether he had not expressed himself to this effect. He knew the night Hon. Gentleman was too manly to deny it. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that the Voltin teers were prepared for a service to which they ,were wholly inadequate; and that whatever the Inspect ing Field Officers may say of their fitness to / serve in the Line, they were wholly unqualified for that ser vice. But however the term of loosening the disci pline may be • explained, a material change was to be made by taking away the Drill Serjeants and the Inspeeting Field Officers, the only point of contact with the Government the Volunteers had. Instead of being in-a situation where.they could be of essential service to the Country, the Volunteers were to be sent back to their homes. In every step, from the higher retrenchment of the Staff, to thelower re trenchment of the Drill Serjeants, every thing short of absolute disbanding was proposed, in the redaction of the Volunteer Force, with a view to an armed po pulace or a drilled mass. Was- it possible to conceive such a military body as a drilled 'mass without Offi cers, to be taken out of the people, and after 2'5 days of drilling, after being shewn the use of the musket so far as they could learn it, to be sent back again among. the people, whether With • or Without the May be- to that -effea, it ens only the nete sty of the case that could justify • the application of the principle ; and it rested on the Right, HOnour able Gentleman opposite,. to sliew the necessity which called for the increase of the Army, by coMpelling 200,000 men to come out and be trained, when they disbanded 300,000 already trained, and obliged' them to lay down their arms. The compari son the Papers would aflbrd, would be only a com parisoti of expence : there was no comparison in the. description of service. He was well aware that it was a delicate thing to trench on the Volunteermind. The introduction of the Bill before the House had produced Inuele egitetion. He had' nb desire o in crease the disposition to resign ; all that he said had a contrary view. He. thought it -Weolig in the Vo lunteers to take up an impression so unfavourable of the' proposed measures; and . whenever he had bad an opportunity to offer his advice, be had. recommended to wait - till' Parliament bad given its opinion. For so far every one- say reason- to condeMn and complain ; reason may be 'seen at the same time to suppose that Parliament would not sanction any thing so obviously wrong, at least not without modifying it so as to render it less excep tionable.. Hence. there, was reason to conclude, that if the measures proposed with respect to the Volun teers were at all adopted, it would not be Without - qualificetions calculated to remove their exceptionable qualities. With these sentiments he ardently wished the . produaion of the Papers he proposed moving for, with a view to remove discontents, at the existence of which, under - the present -circum stances, he 'did not wonder. He was particularly anxious to'prevent, and to remove such discontents, as he was sensible they would be made use of by the cnemies of the Volunteers as the strongest argument to get rid of, -and to remove -them from the honourable 'and useful station in which they_ stood. It was in the remembrance of every one, that when the services of the Volunteers were called for at the commencement of the most imminent danger,-which bad not yet passed by, they came forward with a patriotism and a spirit of the most honourable description. But, when the very Ar.ltriinistration, in, a great measure, that then called them forward, now called on them to leave their ranks and to mingle with the multitude ; when they were told that the military colour was disgraced by their weering it, and military rank by-their -holding it, was it not to be expeacd that they would shrink back from the post they had heretofore courted with so much eagerness, nod maintained with so much erwrgy The ohjc& he bad in view ie moving for t the Papers be proposed to have laid before the House, was to lead to explanations which would remove. these . diacoutents, and the diminution of force arid. disaffection of spirit that must arise from them. He moved that there be laid before the House an Account of all monies issued in Great Bri tain for Volunteer service since the commencement of the present War, and the heads of the various issues . : ' • Mr. Secretary FOX had no objeaion , to the Mo tion. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Windham) stated . expressly and distin&ly that he did not mean to make any redu&ion in the Volunteer Force. In agreeing to the Right Hon. Gentleman's Motion, however, lie could not give his approbation to the 'Right Hon,. ceeeeb The hitter part of the speecb, which recommended to abstain from any premature condemnation of the measures about to be proposed, and to. wait to see what would be ultimately. resolved upon, he commended; but the Other part Which went on a misunderstanding, and misinterpretation of his Right Hon. Friend's exptessions, to put it to the Vo . - lunteers to withdraw their services,he could not either approve or tolerate. • .His Right. Hon. Friend had already explained what he meant by relaxing the discipline Of the Volunteers, which was nothing more than to - exercise them for a smaller number.of days. Whether this was wise or not, may be fair matter of discussion ; but it could note Matter of offence to any, and least of all to the olunteers . . But when he heard an HonourableGentleman, capable of better things, grasping at words, and misrepresenting them - so grossly; as to assign to what his,Right Hon. Friend had_ explained as his meaning of the expression of re laxing the discipline of the Volunteers, an intention disband the whole Volunteer force of 300,000 men, for the. purpose of calling out and substituting 240,000 of the levy en naesse, he- could not help re foannendingto that Hon:Gentleman what he had re ' eoinineaded to the Volunteers—to wait till he under . -stood whafwas to be done before he-presumed to g ive all opinion ofso injurious a nature. If his Right on. Friend had it in contemplatio:i to disband the Volun teers, he 'had concealed theeintention from him, and so .thr as he was aware, ;from the rest of His Majes ty's- Ministers. It was possible his Right Hon. . Friend may not look forward to a diminution of the Volunteer Force : It was likely, -to be sure, that the redo lion of allowances he proposed may have . the effeCt-of producing a diminution of numbers : but that there was any such intention on the part of His I%ll3.esty's Government, or on the part of his Right - lion. }none ; or ,that one word in his speech could • be tortured to warrant such, an interpretation, he a bsolutOy denied.. recommended to the Right Hon.Gentlernan, therefore, as he had done to the Vo lunteers, to abstain from censure on objects which he 'did not Oriden;tartd. - When the question would be be fore the House.in its proper shape, it would be com petent to argue; w hethcr the measures preiposed by his Right Hon. Friend would have the efra of reducing the numbers of the Volunteers; whether the expellee would be 'reduced' in a proportion- greater or .leSs than the redeaion of numbers; - and whether, on a combination of these considerations, and a view of the service to be obtained by the levy en masse, the - measures proposed- by his Right Hon. Friend could he with prudence adopted. - Those who were pre judiced. against the measures proposed by his Ho - pourable Friend may already look upon the diminu-e fion of the numbers of= the 'Volunteers as certain. ; They would then only have to consider whether the -diminution in the number, or the saving in the ee pence, were the more important consideration; that was a, fair question, and a question in its nature so temperate, that he could not possibly conceive how it could give rise to any irritation, much less how it could be matter of insult to the Volunteers, to - degrade and set a stigma upon them, as the Ho'n.Gentleman, in his animated language, had thought- proper to sup pose. Aeothei stigma - the Hon, Gentleman 'had found in the Volunteer Force being, as he described it, made a sort of asylum for _those Who should - be deposed- to fly from the training of the levy •en , __es • . 4 ~ .; . / . .... . , muskets, to the. use of which they would nave been - a ,e . sted in a few subordinate measures of economy, trained, the Right Hon, Gentleman clid not h say f Iti,aichaeould have no effea one way Or the -other If this mass WaS to be thus trained without Otieets; le 1,1e,a hhent merely to put the Volunteers on the ori- • how was it possiblY to be collehted in case of Invasion ? I gitial footing of i•olun vary service, a footing o n which: iohenoo of the ttah,hee now existing already, ilk. I-1 NM to ,order, .asked whether this it : , were. 0 Motion-our the general_ subject of the Volenteer , Theolajea. teas to reduce them from the June to the m Force; for if" it was a ese Motion for Papers', it August allossances. There were now hut -e • 0, 000 was very wrong tb go into it at such a length with- :on the. Rine allow ances. If this could have the eft. out notice. , - fed. of disbandipg the Volisiteers, of whorl - a:300, 00 e - . . ; Mr. PAULL stated the right to the. attention of Were already on the allowance to which all were to the - House to belong to his Motion, of which a long be red.ueed, it was matter of astonishment to him, , notice had been given, and not to this of which there t as it would be to all the world.. The propoSed arcs had been nu / notice. - rangenient would have no other efred than that of . The SPEAKER said, there had been a notice of ' placinh the allewaneee on the - foohnh on which they. e 0 the Motion for Papers relating to the Volunteer ' had been at first, and on which it ' a, :tel. - now - Force. The Motion certainly had been . branched I lodged to he .desirable that they should b e _ The - out into a more general' range .than such a Motion tendency of his propoaiiion was rather 10, add t seemed to require. But it was in the discretion Of . than to diminish the numbers of the ' Volunteers, the House to permit or to restrain such extraneous There was nothing- disne to:disband, and these whet proceedings. He did not feel warranted in litter- would find-it eligible to go into the Volunteers to posing to check it hefdre, nor did 4ie now. - avoid the training en masse, mist, or e tardy, be as . increa: e. To leave did ' allowances 'as the were, - Lord CASTLERE_4GI-1 said, lie had been nate rally led into a comparison of the Volunteer Force without any increase, trost have.the e if e et. of doing with that which the Right Hon. G e nt leman ' meant . what he did. 'He did na , disguise or , dissembles — He thanked the Noble Lord for the compliment he to substitute. He was glad that so material a change had been made in what the Right Hon. Gentleman paid him it) expressing his coptidellee lila lie-would had proposed ; and according as further Chancres ate. in a manly way : he did s o . Th e Bin on ly went should be made to bring it more near, it Would °be to put into the mass the' s that nvenld not serve - more near being entitled' to any / support lie could at their own' expellee, and take 'out oC,the - .nines% those who wished to•serye at their oWli"-ht - pence. A give. All the regulations proposed were calculated to produccepraaical relaxation of discipline , and di- to the general argument on the measote, lie would reserve himself till a future occasion, its "the Hon-- of numbers. , , M. IPINDIIAM was glad his Right Hon. Friend Gentleman _ ought to hove clone, if he had coutented had stepped forward to answer the Hon: Gentleman himself with moving for papers, to -the preelh&tiorte who bad - brought forward his Motion. - He had him- of which he must have khown there - wds net the self been thrown into an agitation which rendered it I mil:A-lest cbie4tion, When the ,Hon: Gentleman poig. made a speech. (Zsuelelength, in such langteige, awl with such matter, it was fair to imputeato PI"; 0.0- not quite fit for him to stand. up, not by the nancy of the wit of the Right Honourable Gen : jeas different from his mere Motion. lie had nt; , - tleman who had introduced this Debate, but by a sort of figure of speech adopted by the Honourable the smallest objection to- the - preduaion, of . the Gentleman, which excited feelings in him which it pa pens T.:4I?L'ETON congratulated, the Honsen was fit to keep down, and to forbear addressing the House, till they had:given _place: to feelings of a cooler oh.the,detferettee of the I? fight Hon, Gentlen-lan's nature. , Part of the arguments urged on the other sentithents this night from what he thought on - the. ,side..applied to questions very proper to be discussed night. on whieh he brought forWard_his measere.— _ at another time, When the measure that gave rise to Every one_ mast remark the vast differenee of hhte,- h e Janguage, anti Manner. In the Sheri Sketch of tilt.: these queStions should be before the House. T other part . called not so Much for argument, as - , for former night the Right Hon. Centleman took away -l a was ' an o pen undss.gnissia in n s _ from the . Volunteers their - DeilleSerjeanni and their coetradiaion. Inspect Reid Field Officers, thinking it suffi statement of whathe had said on a former hight.,- ciept that , -- they should be seen some time in the year by tile He had not only.never.said , but he had never thou g ht of s.vhat had been imputed to him. The Hon. Gen- Lor4 Lieutenant or-his Deputy. That mus t indeed tleman had expressed , an anxiety to exp lain the obe relax their diseiplinhis day mtie. The difference of tone thet . Jed of his - lotion. It was no t neceisar y to explain was observable this betehputed - to the sersee the Country - had manifested on the contents of the the obie& of the Mover — that was clear; and he . speech Ina& by the honourable Gentleman on a should be exceedingly sorry if the Hon: Gentleman former day. Resolutions 'had been entered into bad not been as perfectly successful in that point as he. I Was, It Ntris a kind of Parliamentary warfare, resorted .1 by nianY' CorPs, which hod been . aubmitted to to ins show-few instances before, but nosy adopted His Majesty's Minismers. 'He had seen manr such resolutions, and. had recommended to .s,it without limit by the' Hon. Gentlemen On the other side to infieence every passion right or wrong (a cry. I patiently till Mr. Whin:he's' Sy stemma should be fully of No, No, frOti the other fide}. That was at least the explained. The Hon. Member and the House. would pardon the irregularity of thentioninah the tendency of what had beeh said; and though it maynot ' 1 -name •; but the System was known, as Mr, ind -- be Parliameotary to charge it direalv , he was more I ham's, in contradistinaion to. all others that had 'ever justified in cottoning it from the s p eeches of the Hon. Gentle:ben, thah they were in colleain g the raisin- existed. The objet~: of the Motion was tty.imPli i i . and elucidate the statement of the Right Hon. Ge"re terpeetatiOn Of this . night from his. The Hon. Gen , : The Right Hon. Gent. had stated that 5,0-00, 0 " Le tlemen May, if they thought fit, adopt this system of , bad been expended in three years for Velunteer'Serh" Parliamentaay warfare; but h e wished _ them to ab, ' , vice ; and the question wns, whether there was nt stain Prom misinterpreting ' his speeches, and Making ! that servi - ce merit adecmate to the cost ? The Meit their own misinterpretations the foundation- of at-. tacks upon him. He should be l ra ppy to follow the of the service, was ungesstionable e and was service contradictions in their order, but that was impossia of such unquestionabfe merit to be recempensectonly , ti the refusal of rank, as if they were, unw orthy n' ble.. The Heti. Gentleman charged lima with saying it, by telling them, that the colour of the cloth w_,A; the Army was degraded by the Volunteers' Wearing the same colour. All he had sa id Was, that as the degraded by their wearing l it. - 'his wa as ' Mode pf Army every where,existed as a distill& body, and its increasing the strength nod security of the Country . which could not be easily paralleled. character depended in a great measure- on that -dis tinetion, a part of its chaeader and discipline was lost J'he question was , now put, and the Papers cre when that distinaion was m ultiplied. He denied d ere d without o pp osition. - traing any expression to the extent charged upon him. A Message from the Lords As to the charge of having made t h e Voltinteers a ships' assent to the Treasueer of the Ordnance declared their L ail . . Sir John Duckworth A;s rmuity Bill, and several Vll degrading asylum for those who fled froin the lev y ` , ate Bills. en masse, his Right Hon. Friend had so full y vindi- The Order of the Day being read, for - taking cared him, that he.was almostashamed to revert to - it. His object was, that persons who from their si- consideration His Majesty's Message, tuation in life would 'be averse to, being trained in Mr. Secretary . FOX observed, - that as it woithi he the general Mass, should have the option of being be more convenient 'for the Members e to talce t e •thtined in a more congehial manner. It Was on the Message into consideration to-morrow, he moved, same principle that the Volunteer System was form- that the slid order be clischargaxl; Which wes agre e .. into , to. .11 - e then moved, 'that at be talten into cuib h-- ed . on the basis of the Levy-en-masseAa . The exemp htioes from the Mill tia,and other inducements to enter oration to-morrow. I - Ordered. into Volanteeteservice were made matter of reproach _ MARQUIS WELLESLOT.. to the Velunteers. Ile did not Make theist - Matter of • Mr. P.IULL rose, for the purpose of stibiniting reproach ; the Hoe. Gent. did in making them matter to the'Hoese the I\lotion of which he had given 116- of coatraat between the Volunteer trainin g and the ' rice. ' .It teasea' his Whitt' to trey ass at any ge t ; t levy, eh masse. And by whom was this diStinaioe length ,on their time; indeed, had that o ri g hll ' inT made ? The HonhGentletnan was the author of the been his intentioh, the long debate whichleld Just Army of Reserve Bill, by Which '50,000 men were tel would hes - e been sufficietit to des to be raised, who , had given to the Volunteeran - - the ideas of one s;) little aceeatomed to - Ouhlies - peh liin g: exemption from this a\kt, and from the Militia; and i as ao nse nt H e „.„en centime Breese l a t h e first instance; to an exPlanation of tine mode of proc'sh'd-- Who had, as his Noble. Friend (Lor d Tem p le) ver y I properly reminded him, given as his opinion, that 1 ing which he meant to adept. He Might, perhaps, a Volunteer could not resign. He was.the person.to be asked.why he volturteered the undertaking ? He. come forward now', and to say the - Volunteers whre would answer, that with reaeird toll t l - '""l it ' st e- la canige < aa a • degr:ided by the'adrhission of those who preferred Marquis Wellesley, which related to the Nabo b c' t. voluntary training to the training en - =sae.. a He_ Ferruckabad, • he' was most intimately acatiainted came now to 'the charge of relaxing the discipline. with all the circtunstanceshattending it. He alsG It was rather singular, that in' the speech which he was well informed on the subject of th e l av ish eh as well - as others lisd thought long for the occasion, this was the only point he could feSten upon as a penditure of the Conlpany's _money by Marquta Wellesley; but he did think that this Was a part of subjectt of discontent to a large body of mein where the case Which orient co !ease been. brought forst-ard. the Honourable Gentleman and. lila friends :hoed it by those Who ti been threia r ieled with eile ateerse - &-: 11- . convenient to agitate. ' Perhaps, critieally speaking, of ruin by 24Iarquis Wellesley's. condut. F o r hi:well,. the word• relax might have been inexad etid - une he was fully aware of the difficulties of theease fortunate ; remit might have been a Letter word ; \title].) he had prescribed to himself; his only (_ :-. 7 tile Honourable Gentleman may feel alnustNl, hat .. todischarge -in thebest sA ay that he eotleA. Was the House would recoiled, that all objeCtionsof this He believed that the Court of - Directors Were 110, v nature Would. be nothing more than nele verbal perfectly conscious that- they ought to have come criticisms. The Hon. Gentlemantilaso colleted so f orwar d, all ey . e a d -e u e ee d d rawn op a Bill o f In much mischief from the wonder-working Word, dietment is lids contaived the strongest flEts aganq relax-, must, as well as the House, be aware, that the Marquis. For hirbself he had most seriously ie. be meant by it nothing more than that the Vo- lament' the absanee of a Nehle Lord who had pre luhteers should attend a smaller number 'of clays, . • mised to support hital, and by so doing to advocate and that there should be no permanent duty.-- the cause' of justice, but who was prevented by ille. With resped t 6 their attendance at drills, "- ness from coming down 10 the House, (i.Ve under-- the other days, or their being subject at proper , stood the Elon.Gentleman to mean Lord Folkstone). times to military law, no alteration Wa3 to be made. 'He bad sought for precedents to guide him in 1 4 - The Inspecting Officer had no power to enforce at- hourse of proceeding. That' of Mr: Hastings wos tendance at drills, and that amongothera was a reason t h e m ost obvious. I 1 the House should think his for getting rid of them. How the Hon. Centre- charge worthy of lying on their. Table, lie should man, Who must have known that the application m ove on a future. day then be taken into cOnsidera of the word relax.. was confined, to these -pointa, ' thin. He trusted that the - House would excuse any could give su,h - a latitude the it, he was at a inthrmalities in the \ray in which the charge lehl loss to conceive. In hint:Leif he felt awkward be e n drawn out, and not shied it on that account. at being pu j t upon his ustifreation, when he was so . lie,had- been unaiSkd its drawing it th by any Gen . perfectly uncense to ha of any ,thing wrong . . The- tlen - ao of the'Lev a, and t he charge - cou ld c0t:1...- whole Of his alteratiohS ill the Volunteer System 'uteatly not be ex . eed to posSess that accuse;- est', '~..saett3 a +