The Sun. — London, England, 1817-05-13 00:00:00

`to prevent the destruction of game in the night, wi:ich was agreed to. colonel WOOD wished the third reading of this :PA!' to he del►yed a few days longer. .Sir E. KNATDMIULL said he had already put t•il the third reaffing of ►he Bill for more than a month, and thought the measure did not admit or Tfie Bill ♦ras then read a third time and passed. CLERGY RESIDENCE BILL. Mr. MANNP.R3 SUTTON moved the second read ing of the Clergy Residence, Bill. Lord Ea at Nur() N Obit* to the Bill., Mr. DictuNsort was against the Bill, on prin ciple as well as on account of the particular na t li r, of the enactments of the Bill. Ile adverted to the practice of clergymen degrading their cha racter by becoming common farmers. f+ir. 111kNNEitS SUTTON' said, that the Honour able Gentleman who spoke last, seemed to have completely mistaken the objects of the Bill, which were to prevent non-residence, and to afford a ~ullicient provision for the Clergy. BADINGTON could not approve of the 13111, because he considered it as by no means calcu lated to attain its professed object, The • non. Gentleman was proceeding to deliver his send munts, when 'Mr. M. SorrroN observed, that he bad only tnoved the second reading; of the Bill, on the un derstanding that the discussion upon it should take place in the COMmittee, and should not stop the other more pressing public business which stood for this night. The was then read a second time, and or tiered to be committed on Friday. The Bermuda 'lmola Bill was committed.—Re pod t to-morrow. ARMY ESTIMATES. The House having ordered that the Army Esti mates should be. referred to the Committee of Sup ply, slid- the House having resolved itself into that Committee, Lord New:error? said, that in, rising to 'eel upon the Honie to vote the Supplies for the At my for the whole of the year, he did not feel himself boned to follow the arrangement which hail ibeen hitherto 'usual in describing the diffe rent classes of force which it was proposed to maintaiu. He should, therefore (thinking it the most 'consonant and perspicuous mode), 'divide the whole of the Establishment for which he now intended to call upon the House to provide, into four classes, "Under the first class, he included the whole active military force employed within the kingdom, that was to say, the Regiments of the Line, the Staff, the Volunteers and Yeomanry, end the public offices. Under the second class be incl u ded the active force employed out of the kingdom, including the troops in France and in I tdin. The third dais comprehended' that de scription who were remunerated for past services, such as the half-pay, Chelsea pensioners, &c. The fourth class was composed of that part of the esta blishment which it was intended - to reducein the course of the present year, but for which some sup ply would be required, as the rennet ion was not yet completed.. The labours of the Finance Corn mit tee made it unnecessary for him to trespass at such length on the time of the House as he might Otherwise have felt hiMself bound to do. The general and' comprehensive statement in the Second Report of that . Committee would enable Gentlemen to satisfy themselves on many points. To the cOmparative statement in the twenty.o. sixth null twenty-seventh pages of. that Report lie particularly referred. It would there be seen, that on the total amount of force for this year, as compared with that for the preceding year, there was a diminution of I ,738,0001. Bat in that'statement was included the disembodied Militia, which he did not take into the account in what he had now to submit to the Committee. There would there! ore, by making an allowance for this,'he on the whole force of this year, as compared with the last, a reduction amounting in rottuthnm hers t0'1,800,0001. By referring to the 23(1 page of the same Report it would be found, taking the more narrow view, and taking only. that part of the army which wits en actual charge on the re venue of the country, that there was a diminution in the 'limiter of men for the service of this year as compared with the preceding, of 35,000 rank . and file, or !including Officers) 40,000. In ad dition to this, however, he' had to state to the Carmelite", that orders had been recently sent to the Mediterraneau for the-return of the 2d batta lion of the 14th Regiment, which waa to be re duced as soon us it reached this country. Taking the reduction of that battalion into account, there would he a reduction on this brunch of the force of 36,000 rank and file, or 42,000, including Officers and men, compared with the numbers of, last year. If the aggregate of the military es tetaishment, including, the force in France, was taken, and allowance was made for the 2(1 bat. , talion of the 14th Regiment of Foot, now on their way home to be reduce'', there was, on the whole, it reduction of 53,000 rank and file, or 61,000 offi cers and men front the amount rit the force last year., Be this reductiOn in the number of men there would be a reduction in the amount of the supplies for this year to the extent of 1,800,006. %%The . ther the extent of this reduction would give' antis faction to all, be Would not venture to say ; but at le;;.st he %. , as sure that to a mejority'of the House it would appear satisfactory. At least ifibeived, that in the interval between the last Session of J'arliament and the present, his Majesty's eters had not been inattentive to the sufferings of th.e nation, but had lent all their efforts to make such reductions in the military estahlishMent as would materially reduce the public expenditure, end thus not only sooth the feelings, but alleviate the distresses of the people, Aedmitions such those which he had mentioned could not be ea3ily or quickly made., It was not a glance of Ott eye, or it stroke of the pen, that was sufficient to effect them. When the nature and extent of our min tory establishments, was bonsidered ; when it was remembered that they were scattered' through our settlements in every quarter of the world, it would he allowed chat it tetpOred the most laborious and piitient examination on the part, of his Majesty's Government ti) . enable them to submit to the House the reductions which he had mentioned. le would be seen by referring to , the 25th pnge'of the Second Reoort of the Finance Committee to what eetent the military force of the country had been reduced within the last two years anti a ball. At the end of 1814 (which was the earliest time at which the work of reduction could have been cononcoced), the amount of the whole military force of the country was 228,594 mt.!), Last year the umuunt of the force kept up was 99.000 men for the general service; including the Colo nies, 30,000 for our army France, and 20,000 for Great Britairi and Ireland. For the present year the aminunt .would he as follows, 830,000 men for the general service, including the Colonies; 20,326 for the arnsy in France, and 17,360 for Great Britata and Ireland. It would be hardly necessary for bins to recapitulate the different stations on which these were employed: %Vic!) respect to the derails of_ the reduction, the following were the most prominent statements : The Guards had not thisyear been exempted from bearing their share in the reduction ; for from each company in the ,Guards there had been a re duction of one sergeant and ten men. The total number of men reduced front the regiments of the line in , the last year were taken at 13,000. The expenses of the recruiting department for this year were taken at 130,0001. lets than they were last year. In the Staff, great reductions had also - been made. In this department two hundred and fifty-seven officers were reduced. The public departments and offices were those in which ' the least reductions bad been made ; and it was easy to explain why they w e re the branches of the public service in which reduction at this time was least practicable. The whole amount of the re , ductions in the public offices was between 19,0001. and 20,0001. , When the nature of these - 'Offices was considered---when it was considerad thot.the very process of reduction for the tit*c increased the amount of bus4 , ess in these departments, it would be admitted that these were not. the de payments in Which the greatest reductions could be• expected. In the office of the ,Com mander-in-Chief particularly, there was a s;ource of business which perhaps could not be con sidered as likely to be permanent, but yet which W 45 for the tiine occasioned by the process of reduction. Many officers fit for ser vice being placed upon half-pay, feeling their ca pacity for the public service, naturally came for ward and submitted their claims to be employed to the Commander in Chief. He was sure the House would,sympathise in the situation of these persons.---(Haar, hear; hear I)—And he was also sure that the Holise would not carry the reduc tions so far as even to deprive the Commander in Chief of attending to such claims, and giving the claimants at least the poor ststisfactiou of know ing that their claiets.were not treated with neglect. The Committee would see by the statement iu the Report of the Committee of Finance, that cousi , dernble reductions were made in his (Lord Pal nrerston'S) department. But as to that branch of the department in which the Correspondence was conducted, there could not be any reduction at all. Tine number of letters . of authority and of warrants inserted in the books . of the Office afforded the best criterion.as to this. Its the year ending the 17th of March, 1791, the number of letters in his department was 7004 ; in the year : ending its March, 1800, tbe number was 14,703; in the year ending in March, 1816, it wa5.92,320; in the year ending in March, 1817, tlie number had increased to 105,904. .§o far, therefore, as reduction could he founded on the diminution of _business, it would be allowed th a t at least iu this department the reduction could not yet be made. The number of Clerks in. the %Yar-Otlice hatl.also been considerably reduced. Among others, he stated, that the number of Clerks, of the highest class, had been reduced from six to tour. A miler reduction.was made in the second elass.The Chief Inspector.ot the Foreign Branch, who had a salary of 1,995/, a-year, was. also reduced. Se veral Clerks in minor departments bad been re duced,, and, besides, several vacancies occurring, Irons death or resignation, had not been filled up. On the whole of this department, compared w i t h last year, there was a reduction in the expense to ; the amount of 5,921,0001. In the Adjutant. Ge. nerel's deparstuent there was a reduction to the extent Of 30001. In the Quarter•Master-Genes rag's Department 1736/. In the Department of the Commissary-General of Musters 17141. In the Volunteers there was • a reduction to the amount at' 34071.' In the Military .College there was a reduction of 55641. As to this. item, he was bound to notice the very handsome conduct of the Governor of. that College, who, When .called upon to state what reductions-could be made in that department, began by drawing d a i s pen through 500/. a-year, tine allowance Of his own table. certainly was only such conduct as was to be expected by those who knew the character of the gallant Officer. In the suns for :pay of Generul.thiicers,sthere was a diminution ,of 3620/. which arose front the casualties during the year. Since 181.4, when the arrangement now acted upon with respect to.the pay of Gene ral Officers was introduced, 54 General Officers bad died. it was intended, pursuant to the Res .port of the Committee. of Finance, to altee, the, arrangement, by - Which- there were . asisn , ttreS rates of pay for General Officers,. by assimilat. ,ing the pay of Generals and Lieutenant-Ganes ,rats, insteattof having as now one rate for.Ma jor-Generals, .one for Lieutenant-Generale, and ft: third for Generals. It was intended for the future that' officers promoted to the rank of Oe, nerds should not receive the mullioned pay till the whole number of General Officers was reduced to 120, which was intended to be the number to which the permanent establishment would be limited. in the Estimates for the present year, those , for the different garrisons were separated from the Staff, Under the second of foor classes into which he'liad - divided the , military establish.. meats, namely, that which included the half-pay and pensions, there was an increase In the preseut year to the amount (4958,0001. ; the obvious cause of which was the reductions which had 1 , ta,eu place, thirdelass•t here was , a reduction of 238,000/. In consequence of the Report of the Committee of Finauce, a. new, arraugement was proposed with respect to pensions and allowances to wounded Officers. He would take leave to say, that he did not entirely approve of a new arrangement. Ac cording to that now acted upon, the amount Of the pension increased , with the. rank, Of the offic er . What was now intended was, that all officers for the future should received the pension only for the rank which the.) hell at the titne they receiva ed the wound. •There had been an increase in the allowances for superannuittions in Exchequer fees ; there was 'a diminution in the present year to the extent of 92,0001. The Irish Barracks, and the Irish Commissariat, were not included in the F 4 itilliatCS for the present year. On a general view of the amount of the whole Estimates, there was a diminution of 1,800,0001. as combitied with the last year. The total amount of the Estimates for the present year was 6482,000/.,, From this, however, was to be deducted the seductions which were now in progress and would be completed in the course of the year, and the amount would then be 6,385,0001. But of this sum again it was to be consider e d, th a t a great part was required to the third class, which included the remunera tion of past services, and which amounted to about -2,591,000/. leaving the total amount of the Esti mates for the active services of the present year, 3,794,0001. for the Ist class. In 1783, the amount of the Estimates for active services was 3,059,0001. and in 1791, after several years of profound peace, it was 1,626,0001. %Viten it was considered that the amount of the soldier's pay was doubled since 1791, and that the colonies and possessions of the. kingdom were now so much more extensive than they then were, it would not be wondered that-the Estimates of this year were now only about 509.0001. more than double what they were in 1791. The Noble Lord concluded by moving the Si st Resolution, '' That a number of men, not exceeding 121,035 for Land Forces, be voted fur the service of his Majesty in the present year." Mr. CALCRAFT thought the torce proposed much too large• for the circumstances of the country. With respect to the Report of the Finance Cdm mittee, as he did not become a member of that Committee. until after the Second Report was drawn up, he did not hold himself responsible for any part of that Report ; and, he could not help observing, as to that Report, that it was very ex traordinary that establishments should be voted, • or their amount determined, before the statement • of the probable income of the year was laid before • the House. In 1792, all th e ser Vi ces •now to be performed, were performed by 40,000 less than the number now required, excluding the force in France. lie did' not mean to say that the esta blishment of 1792 was capable of performing the • services now required. But Ministers were at least bound to spew the reason for so prodigious en increase: With respect to the Colonies, he could not help observing with satisfaction, that the numbers tallied completely with those he himself had proposed as sufficient ...last year ; though he was then told that no reduction could be made. ' In more than five or six instances the present numbers tallied with what be had then proposed ; so that Ministers had adopted the opinions of ! himself and his friends ;, but, on this occasion, be must say, they were a full year in arrear of their duty, as they ought to have made thOse very de ductions a year ago. No doubt next year they would find, that what they think impossible now Call he done then. For the considerable reduc tions that had already been made, the country • wets, in his opinion, indebted•to the firmness of the House in refusing the Income Tax nod the • Malt ' Tax, • and also to -the debates on the Army Establishment. If it bad not been for the discussions that had taken place, though appa -1 rently disregarded at the time, he was conviuced that we should not have seen the reduced esta blishments of the present day, but which, es taken at 140,000 men, be still thought too high. The Gentlemen opposite ought to explain why this force is necessary. There were 17,000 Yeomanry Cavalry in addition to this large force, merely for the service of Great Britain. In 1792 a force of 12,000 men was found amply sufficient. How Caine it that the country was in so different a 'state now as to require such an addition ? it was known that the grievances of the people arose very much frOnt the burthens of taxation; and if • this amount of force wee to be kept up, it must be seen that it would be impossible to diminish these burthens. Now, if Gentlemen thought that a large military establishment was better than • to relieve the public front their burthens, he must beg leave to say that he totally differed from them. Believing, however, that still farther reductions • were in progress, be should trot go into minute details at present; but there were one or two topics which he could not help touching on.— The first was, the 'subject of Foreign Half-pay. Many foreign Officers who received half-pay were now in .Hanover on full pay and in actual service. He thought this a most improvident regulation, an d one which ought to be corrected. Another topic was the Half-pay Officers reduced before the 24th June, 1814. Their case was extremely bard, as being limited' to the old rates of half-pay; and thus a partiality, or preference was strewn to fo reign Officers who had served in our Army. It did not appear to hiin that the reductions bad been sufficiently extensive * in the public depart ments connected with the Army. He did not think that of the Commander-in-Chief likely to be sufficiently !reduced; hqt kie would pros 14 1 , g)" Ministeta the necessity of reducing that, and every is a it allotler department, to the l o w est poss ibl e rate that compatible with the business they have to transact. If he savVany chance of being suort ed, he should m ov e f or a considerable reducpptiOn to be made in the present established force, as be ing too large for the 'circumstances of the coon try. He hoped the Noble Loid would yet give some explanation. of the necessity of maintaining So large a force. Mr. Lvyreetote recommended strongly to the attention of the Noble Lord (Palmers'ou), and of his Majesty's Government, the propriety of re lieving the numerous class .of Half-par Officers from the obligation to the affidavit, by which they' were unable to receive ball-pay, and at the same time hold any civil or other military allowance. There might have been some reason formerly, but its injustice at present was not orilflbvious, but bore with - great severity on that.valuable class. A trifling addition to their income, by the holding • of a small office to the amount of 1001. or 501. a year, would have, the effect of rescuing many of !Ahem - from penury, and could. not , increase the burdens of the country. General WALPOLU adverted to the great increase in the Colony of Jamaica, compared with the es- , tablishment in 1792. Mr. Wanes observed, that the regiments of re estimated 1 I li tt f ra ie s o e n r i s t dG e ti o n o t i t t i e ue lh d abl i the wa r . as de a f t s t a ::a B :r ff r 6 lll . s4 41)111: ite.lllllHlvneitoatißm7l:l:lllo:2,3ePv,asaltieltvanhvls'te'tisi:lC:ustsoairleklifocleochnenrseimilei:iSrl:4l;ll)!lokirret:ol:t: i' was 17,0001..--it 110%17 was estimated at 740 4 These very considerable oilditione stood in geed deed of explanation. iVith respectio the s' (:°" passionate Fund, so we ll applied in diffe %teusing lief to such a number of claimants, liar posed to thir.k that the N oble Lod, Welds in toiil 30001. for future demands , might have the grant. Lord PALMitasTnN, Honourable Gentleman Nnlr.rCePallYcralstaililit'adtlittaitedll Majesty's Ministers a little ungratefully, in 1 tug it klgt§illSl then) as censorable, t h at they adopted his suggestions with respect to the eil t. ' mate for the Garrison Department. /§§ I°P. Hanoverian °Seers,' this . c o untry could not,to !ploy thenranyAonger, and the pay they recto' in “41)0Ver was about equal to the hill•pel this country. .His Lordship then went over 1 0 ., various objections niiich had been ur g ed by.* rent Members, contending flog they trey established by the coinparison between the rel.; Establishment of 1792 and that of the Pr'! . time. • Sir R. FaRGUSSoft wished to call the ettelt,„); of the House to the treatment of tetu'v/ 00 0 C°rll!. He stated that in Fort Chorles $ 1 be were stationed,, and in two years .520 , 11 . 1 1 .4, had, been infli4ted by order of Courts Mart!.`,4,o (Hear, hear !)_4le ascribed i b c b a d s taid ,or v t of ciptine which gave rise to this terrible eobntiot onnishment to the fact of the Beittil lent fe ot kept in the West Indies for sa l ' I ' . 1 , 0 4114 of f ke Y etlatrissisilbtiellethientob lires had cast caa General tttten,PhitetHia:mdPPeesrfi ttteillt:le7o;l;:leiteticitritatici:;;Nlenis:4l4eob:tii°lll::9:ll:o,:teeer:llcilkt°ll,ol:ef::l?.. of his Royal 'Highness the Doke of I r '' t t. mi m ic!: Sir R. PiRGLISoN disavowed any intento to] (itoi kind imputed to him. Ile m erely uill'''" the abuse, that it might be remedied. , . 100 01 Lord Nuottwr contended that the Di' oott il were greater than the necessities of the c is ' oe id! required, and he could not consent to P too ,/' .oPbcniAuevcßetwriaginiNts thoughtthtie) hands of a set ° f fae ! ) l tt Motifes be distrusted,. and whose was very far (rem subscribing to. princip4t , 0 c u o rg u e ntry should,„ wait, till the state of the Fuoince'esr, ,"start The Ho fore them, when it peshaps 'ight l o pe , whatea e r was the necessity tor a large 110 1 1 100 '„,, thl IpeunilY then''l ntch fs:ol:sll:trrhy°wlt'ict'lee,":tr.u°l:''llvi; tile thEAsttirrs•tit(T! hllliesti ii : ll : l ,,h u' r l',l abolitiont receiving leh anei l o l ir a gnf hall - pay. inc S lu ir ilin .iesty's Ministers 1 t h is '4l' meats:al called t:oreo fro mpo required three lime s I tioleild,.l ign service, and also for Fatglowl Itirt,ti,sehic' had been of 0 ; WM. g ButtnouGus remarked, 0104.4010 t the demandedii enrattrayt oilhbeotchlokir'''',, forto scar: ~o li ed , goo. v ` t o Mr;Gotit.auart• said, that if do ; I 1110 6 ,b, man had had the advantage of lte'rho t0i1,,., J ect '' last .Yearo,and also fro's', We° 40 00 1. I denten who now sat around that Gel'i'idt Os' , it Pres Pot moment, he would not haveditoKLio against the proposed militant ein iu , ll : c oll't t s in tleolastoside of the Hotisc,l ~f to ~.t o. review of the establishments for " 10 0 4 ' to , 1792 i and those now proposed, c . , w ° ee ry P t c ta Gba ll i ga p e : Sda l n r e i l i p tnr * bl O r see : l f tei e v s ini s i t e a l m o i nt inm i t e t . t e n i ni d a : a p: o l o n t o l i ni c ti et y n o a: ; : nt tesl c n g x jto r :o l ll l (lri n lg e t , ns i v ; le) „ :lr l -I ::: C l i c t ''ll i at i l l i el i,i'l l i‘ j ilsll Lord CAITLIIRSAGH proteoten ea —b, thev•oo ~, a o p s i r f t c : e r ap l s o u p e f s e fi c o i t iitrioatttiti:F:tleonosttitrissheitaittnt 1 1 8 7 atBestg Nltilii:nelysstteilrillistilth°i°ll:tielfLon4:l:llooliii, i i •ich tv"td , s o 1 pp! rof the House could be•taken. /le bets • 'Of n uin j 0 (1 m m and a as d s e M . iiilpiTtellikadoninennd:ll.l y hiVna° t t: w wis clioll;etprneeeteriran:::::::::1111111:ifc 1 t;:°:; I i l; :11 planation need be given►were th ° flotO e i l l ' the i Sig and Ireland. As to the latter, to fit . v iol 141, I Hon. Frie i n ts d rn , sint;itl7t iithweolult;tbineeo:o7.l(e,i:4 to go into it again. • Then as __ltt 00, were 26 thousand men, three thou"'; to be calm isolo r were for relief, leaving 23 tho' „ o f oa t i t hl banally drawn upon tor the suPPI torcl,odi v c ,r_ flies ; so that in fact the e ffect iv e of Dv i PoDC , country applicable to the purr s ' 0 ora"foote out not to be taken at more tbaii 17,, olie men. Reference had been nretilie ; ace , s p i i i i ‘ l : l A li t which great changes' bad ta . . tue o r . , ito t more than in the organization 0t,...1"the I/01r; the former period, our two' .1"00 111 . : log 1 , 1 Lad - Da Stif,—, ty a 1111#1 -140--Col ot 10 1 : 0 •1, such as had since had the glut Y . _ 0 , 1 , s oil 1 ochicverio soo at ,, army for u nexample d betw ea tbo e ; therefore, not a comparison 0 c .. 0; in . _o79' Staff, but between Skutt' and 11 ett 7i:, , ,: r r i 1,:, , , , , ,, ,0 : 0 ; mate of the expense betweel and the present ; nor %vele tl: ste d to el , stances of the country calc uli t i l eo , 10 0 t s o arng a s er s . t d i meegAeruet:hgao4tfrrtcre°3ananni d:lfe:tiF;rirl'e°l:::bi si e“:vl io cr ! r l dl u e°l ' s .'lt.gs,lll'1 inet l in tlthipeirrop°oPsPi°tisoitrai7 osb6i tesu''lo%-eflito:iellab"yr.tuiCo);:ic",'Vf.e: tint) to gratify the Noble , P .tot thOt"ony 01.1:0 later stage of the measure i'Dord oarobjecu,',o( duce& Neither the Noble to the 35vw opeer ) vote odg' person- had given au i port t ,„ l a n 0 0 that the House vvas collet. n. 44,vv men now for purposes p100.,..,0(i5e quote in 1792. to whic h 00 0tle; eel tbe — l e or I". 00 Lord CASTLARCAGIi bertg traub 1400' , lf the rol y man would' not give lonise loc o g at , a o m joatiiiognihr the subject in nr , Ivo 0 yo e t o i f: P b t: tended, 000 ply Mr. 13eoirouos ee°,;,, nojoin re sso o 1 14 force in the United r>.i.:roight.wer ttlteali 35,000 men, the estinroch 1 1 0 yee4lo. ° expected to be bronyllloo, i to s ot li 4 'were at present. In atit n nitableff there were magistrates, e9' a 1,..