The Sun. — London, England, 1847-02-17 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 11, 1t347. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 16. Their Lordships assembled shortly after Five o'clock. • CROWN LANDS IN ROSCOMMON. The Marquis of WESTMEATH brought forwa rd nlands a his t motion with respect to returns relating to G Killglass, Roscommon, which he postponed li , s o i t w gh n t ig h h a t ve un a t n il this evening, in order that the Government opportunity of ascertaining whether the returns could be fur nished or not. The Marquis of LANSDOWNElassatidnihgeht, hadandmafdoeunthdethina-t in quiries which he promised to m there would be no objection tofurnish the returns, with the reference to pending suits. exception of those which had Ito oi L INFLUX OF IRISH POOR lNTOL o l r 'r e ' L the l' notice eteha of t Earl FITZWILLIA. I wished to which bring before had received their Lordships some information day, respecting the great influx of Irish paupers into Liverpool. lie had received that day a Manchester paper, in which th ere was a long and very able account of the way in which they came to Liverpool, and what was done for them when they arrived there. It appeared that into the town of Liverpool there were be tween 23,000 and 24,000 immigrants. This great in flux induced people who were interested in the ques tion to institute an inquiry, and one of the first effects that followed was a considerable diminution in the number of the persons who were relieved. In addition to that, the Assistant Poor-law Commissioner had been directing his attention to the influx of Irish paupers into Liverpool. He found that the arrivals were, of men 4,419, of women 1,755. and of children 1,150 within a given period. The relief afforded was to men 2,000, women 2,811, children 1,150, and there was an increase of 8,814 relieved, though the number of immigrants was decreased. It was quite clear, from that circumstance, that the number of persons relieved was not occasioned solely by the number of immigrants. There was a large number relieved on a Monday in February. It was 22,348—and how many were relieved on the Tuesday following?—why 4,906. That was entirely in consequence of the active measures that had been taken to ascertain who were entitled to be relieved. Other circumstances were connected with this question. They had heard of the great immigration into Liverpool. They had heard also of 4,000 ejectments in Mayo. The inference that would be drawn from this was, that the influx of immigrants and the ejectments in Maya had some thing to do with one another. That had been an erroneous con clusion, drawn by persons who ought not to have arrived at those positive conclusions, without having instituted a more rigid in quiry. He thought the decrease that had followed in the number of persons relieved upon the inquiry that had been made showed clearly that it was not owing to the cause here assigned. The Earl of LUCAN rose to offer a few observations, in consequence of certain charges that had been made. He could tell the Noble Lord opposite, that in Tyrawley, one of the wealthiest baronies in Ireland, the tenants actually kept posses. sion, and would not permit the landlords to enter their dwellings. He intended last night to have replied to the attacks that had been made upon him, but was prevented from doing so. He knew it to be the practice of that House—and it used to be the practice formerly in the House of Commons—that the person who was to be the subject of an attack should have previous intimation of it, or should have an opportunity of defending himself, but no such courtesy had been extended to him, but, on the contrary, the greatest dis courtesy—a discourtesy which, perhaps, was more con genial to the taste and habits of a certain Noble Lord, who had thought it right to make the attack upon him. It had been stated that an indictment would be preferred against him in consequence of the course he had thought proper to adopt, but that would not deter him now from defending his conduct. He had been charged with three distinct charges—first, that he was a defaulter in not paying his poor -rates ; secondly, that he shut up the workhouse ; and thirdly, that he re used to strike a rate. With respect to the first charge all he had to say was, that he not been absent a single day from the sittings of the board, for a very long period ; and he never recollected being charged with a single instance of non-payment of rates. There were one hundred distress warrants for rates in the town of Castlebar, issued at his instance, and the instructions to the rate collector had beer, initiated by him. When he understood that certain papers were to be laid on the table of the House he hastened down to the Home-office, and protested against Sir George Grey laying his letter before the House, but the Right Hon. Baronet would not accede to his request. He would now read the letter for their Lordships. ( The Noble Earl then read the letter he had written to the Board of Works.) His Lordship, in reading this letter, laid especial stress on those names which, with his own, had been coupled with the charge, and of which he had said in that letter, Ido not believe one farthing to be due from them." He begged their Lordships attention to this, and wished to know bow any gentleman could have given a more positive denial to the imputed facts than that which Ise had just read; but yet the public prints, in alluding to it, had repre sented it as rather an escape than a positive and honest contradiction of the charge.• ( His Lordship then con cluded the remaining part of the letter.) He then added that he was not satisfied with having written that letter, but he had desired the rate-collectors to furnish him with the names of all the tenements of which he was the lessor, and the statement whether he was liable or not for rates on any of them. He found that the total amount of rate on property in his hand was but 601., and there was about 451. on property leased by other tenants, b ut that was not its his owe hand, and he was not liable for it. There was some 101. or 14/. more which he confessed he could not ac count for. There was property of his which at present was in beneficial occupation by another, the rate on which amounted to som e 10/ . or 141., and h e was ' quite . r tecerta d in that not a half, not a thi r d , of that amount remain u ed u was sure their L or d s hi ps would recollect his situation as a landlord, that he was himself a large occupier of land and of farms to a great extent, but on all the property which remained in his own occupation there had not been say rates due for months and months past. He begged distincly to be understood that he took this opportunity of positively stating that there was not a farthing due on the property in his own occupation, as he himself well knew, having personally inspected the rate-books of the board of guardians. The next charge which had been made against him was the shutting of the Castlebar union workhouse. He said the circumstances were these : he went over to Ireland about the close of last session and attended a board of guardians. He was present at a meeting of his tenants, where he was requested to come over to her Majesty's Minister and to represent the state of the couniry. On the Bch September he had returned to Ireland, and at tended a board of guardians, when he was told that all the contracts for the house were expired, that no tenders had been mrde, and that there was no chance of any tenders being made as there was not a farthing with which to pay. A conversation ensued, representing the difficulties of the position in which they were placed, when something was said about shutting up the house, and he said in reply that he would ease them of their difficulties, and keep the house for them. That occurred on the 20th qf September. As to what had been said about applicants for relief having been turned away, or having received inadequate relief, he was certain that no such occurrence had taken place, neither had any one been turned away, nor had any one been sent away with in adequate relief, and that was said by those who had been present at every meeting of the board of guardians since 1840. Now the real facts of the case were, that although the house was capable of accommodating 600 persons, until this famine the outside number that had ever been receives! was 170. And this was not the case at Castlebar only, but at all the other houses the same rule had prevailed. He :remembered, that by the return which had been made of the several houses in Ireland, in which the houses in Dublin were conjoined, the actual number received was not more than from seventy to a hundred. On the 58th September the guardians at Castlebar had made contracts which were to go until the 24th October. This went on till that day, when it was found that the amount that remained unpaid was on wards of 1,2001 The rates, it was true, ought to have been collected, and if they were not so, it was the fault of the col lector and nobody else; and had it not been that he(Lord Lu can) had kept them, the poor could not have been sustained. There was a debt due to the treasurer, and it was evident that if 500/. or even 300/. was collected, it was necessary to pay that amount to the treasurer. They had no opportunity whatever of stopping;the money in transitu. Thus matters went on till the 24th of October, and the only chance they had was to get in the money from the rates to prevent the people from throwing their children on the parish. On that day there was a resolution come to, that unless the Government would step in and grant relief, or the Commissioners would put them , in the way of obtaining the means, it would be utterly impos sible to grant admission to any more poor ; and had it nut been for him the house during the last four weeks would not have been kept at all. This resolution was moved 1;7 Mr. Finch, and seconded by Dr. Dillon, and it stated that had it not been for the contributions from the Earl of Lucan that the house must have been closed, and that, in the present circumstances, it was absolutely necessary to refuse admission to any more paupers, although more than forty applications had been made that day. It stated also that the debts were over 4,000/., and that unless the treasurer advanced money, which he had refused to do, there could be no maintenance for the poor, however desperate the cases, and that unless the Govern ment assisted them in some way or other, either by a grant or in some other way, the house mus t be clos e d altogether. It was difficult to make the people of England understand the state of Ireland. It should be recollected that it was like a house on fi re. Mr. Otway, th e A ss i stant Poor -law Commissioner, suggested t o him that a rate s h ou l d be struck f h ot l hd be the of the p oor , an d s that the doors of th e workhouse ocpexiclufootr havetheir ad.. been mission. But if a ra t e h ad b een struck, it o collected, as in England, th e d ay after; a ' month at least have intervened before they c ou ld h ave b een in a condition collect it, and even the collecting of it was fraught with dift culty, owing to the sub-divisions of the land, and the difficulty of discovering the real persons on whom it should be levied. Nothing could have been more ridiculous than striking a rate because the people were In want of immediate relief. He (Lord Lucan) told Mr. Otway that he was in favour of opening the house, bet as there were no funds to provide relief for them in the house;-- and as it was a question of starvation within, as . well as without th e h ouse, he thought it advisable not to open the doors of the workhouse under such eircumstancesS' , It would have been useless striking a new rate whilst the old rate remained outstanding. It was more advisable, before striking a new rate, to collect what re • seamed unpaid of the old one. The Noble Lord (Lord Dun can) seemed in favour of a paid board; he could not divine his reason, except that be was desirous to be its paid chairman, or to hold some other paid office in connexion with it. One was scarcely prepared to be lectured by a Scotchman (Lord Duncan) on the subject of dispensing relief to the distressed poor of Ireland. He certainly could not possees much knowledge of workhouses from experience, in his own country, as he (Lord Lucan) did not believe that there was such a thiag as a work house in Scotland. He recommended to that Noble Lord's attention, some voluminous blue books, which were more voluminous than those published with respect to Ireland, and which treated of the condition and relief of the poor of Scotland. He would there find much to reproach his country with—details of the niggard relief dis pen. sea to-Me poor; in some cases such wretched sums as 3s. or -VheaileZ'reowt ere given to one family in the course of that time. landlords, he eh t enen spoke sincerely on the conduct of Irish He did not t hou gh he was justified in retorting in this way. misdirected • k that the remarks—the splenetic and re mark , Lord — of the Members for Bath (Mr. Roebuck and favour from their Duncan) would meet with much constituents at the next elect ion There was, no doubt, to condemn ; but at the same time much allowance winastToh made. He could state that the proprietors of Ireland weree making every sacrifice they could, arid they were using every endeavour in their power to Government to alleviate the co-operate with her Majesty's without saying that existing distress. He could not conclu. he much lamented the tone and languagecountry, because he that had been used towards Ireland and the people of that • must candidly say it was ealeulated to create hostile f towards Ireland. When all the subj ects of the n pre„ t d' e e Ing n lion had passed away, there would be fee.ling of envy, e nm i ty, and detestation engendered in the mi nds of the peopl e of Ireland. Earl GREY could not but regret that allusion had beers made to what had taken place in the other House, as it was cal culated to lower the character of Parliament. Having heard the observations of the Noble Earl opposite, he felt it to be his ditty to rise for the purpose of stating, which de did sin cerely, that the censures which he had so unsparingly lavished were altogether unjust. The Noble Earl had spoken of Mr. Otway, Assistant Poor-law Commissioner, in very un measured terms. lie accused hint of having brought charges against him (Lord Lucan) which were unfounded. He (Earl Grey) must say, that he had read all the papers relat ing to the subject, and he had heard the speech of the i Noble Earl, and he was bound to say, that his honest and sincere opinion was that Mr. Otway's censure on the board of guardians of the Castlebar Union was in no way more severe than the circumstances justified. He had no doubt that the Noble Earl, in the steps he had taken with respect to this subject, was actuated by a desire to do his duty towards Ireland; but the Noble Earl's own statement showed that the gravest censure rested upon the guardians of the Castlebar Union ; and here, he begged to observe, that Mr. Otway's censure was not of the Noble Earl, but of the board of guardians of the Castlebar Union. There were two or three facts which showed that the censure of Mr. Otway, and the subsequent suspension of the guardians of the Castlebar Union, were called for. In a period of the most harrowing distress they would not ad mit the paupers, though the workhouse contained a much smaller number than it was intended for, and even to those who were admitted into the house the most scandalous usage was given. It was alleged in defence that they were unable to raise the necessary funds ; but before admitting that plea, it was necessary to prove that due efforts had been made to raise these funds. But even the Noble Earl himself had told them that some of the arrears were due by solvent persons, and that they might, if due diligence had been used, been collected. The board of guardians ought to have taken care that the rate was properly and duly collected. But why, he would ask, was no rate struck? Remonstrances had been made over and over again to have a new one struck, but nothing whatever was done. The ground alleged was this : a great part of the old one still remained uncollected. But every one was aware, that had any experience of the working of these matters, that the heavier the rate the more difficult it was of collection. In the last years of great distress in this country—in 1841 and 1842 there was great difficulty in collecting the rates, but that was never put forward as a reason for refusing to strike a rate altogether. Only two rates had been struck since the Castle bar Union was opened—one in August, 1842, and the other in July, 1845. The amount of the first was 1,C611., and of the last, 3,362/. ; and it was to be observed, that it was with the greatest possible difficulty the last had been struck. He said their Lordships would perceive, from the documents which he had just read, that this union, which was large, and included a great amount of property, belonging to the wealthy; that during the years 1815 and 1846, the years in which very great distress existed in Ireland, only one rate had been struck, and that rate only slightly exceeded 3,000/. He hoped their Lordships would compare this with the efforts which had been made during the years 1840 and 1841 by the small town of Stockport, and by that town which he had the honour of repre senting in the other House of Parliament—he meant Sunder land. Why, what was the rate at which the inhabitants of these towns were paying the poor-rates? They were paying twenty shillings in the pound • but how much were they pay ing in the p oun d i n t h e Castlebar Union? Why, he believed it was not much more than three shillings, and that small rate had only been once made during the course of 18 months in that union, and even that rate, by the admission of the Noble Earl (Lucan) had not been effectively collected. Their Lordships would understand and consider whether the lan guage used by Mr. Otway concerning this union was a whit too severe. But the Noble Earl had thought proper to blame the Government, because the Government had not come for ward in the case of this union and repelled the facts which he had just read to them. He would leave their Lordships to judge of this after hearing the documents themselves. He was of opinion, that if the Government had done that, they would have conferred direct encouragement on those boards of guar dians who were so disinclined to do their duty, and a discou ragement to all those boards who, by some means or other, managed to raise enough to support their expenses, and to keep their houses full ; if Government had done so, it would have been conferring a direct premium on all such conduct as had been just represented to their Lordships. Mr. Otway, he believed, did no more than his duty in writing to the Poor law Commissioners as he did, and if he had not done so in such a case as that of the Castlebar Union, he would not have done his duty. He (Earl Grey) said he could not refrain from shortly commenting on an expression which had fallen from the Noble Earl near him ( Earl Fitswilliara). He had not heard the Noble Earl commence his speech, but he had heard him comment on the number of legal processes which had been issued in the west of Ireland, and he had said that there was a close connexion between these processes and immi gration into England. He (Earl Grey) believed there was a very close connexion between these processes and the immi gration; he believed that a very large number of persons against whom processes had been issued had collected together the few effects which they had remaining, had sold them at what they would realise, and before these p rocesses were per f ect, had left the to wn o f Mayo for the shores of Liverpool. The Noble Earl (Earl ihtzwilliam) had said that these statements had been made with the intention to indispose the public mind of the people of England against the Irish people, and to do justice to Ireland. Now, on his (Earl Grey's) part, and on the part of his Noble Friend, a very near relation of his, he must say, that did he not believe that statement to have been made by the Noble Earl inadvertently, he would have commented on the expression with no small degree of indignation. But it should be recollected that these gentlemen were responsible to Government, and those who were also responsible for the ad ministration of the government of this country. The Noble Earl had stated that the Government and those connected with it during the course of those discussions had made use of language which called in question the conduct of the landlords of Ireland. He much regretted this statement ; but if his Noble Friends had read the papers which had been presented to Parliament—if they had read the blue book which be held in his hands—if they had read the report made to the Board of Works—if they would take the trouble of reading those few volumes, they would know that neglect of Irish interests was not one of the faults of the Government. (Hear, hear.) He was quite sure, that under the circumstances in which they were placed, the Irish landlords would exonerate the Government from the censures cast upon them. But. he would counsel the Irish landlords to hear the truth. However disagreeable the truth might be, yet they had better hear the troth now than some months or years hence, When it would be 1 perf-ctly useless. It was plainly evident that Ireland could not remain in the same situation as she was now—dependent on the assistance of England. The Irish people must help themselves, they must put forth their powers, they must exert their energies, they must rise their powers to get out of this state of doubt, difficulty, and uncertainty. They must not depend on this country, for however strong any Government might be—and he did not care at all of what men it might be composed—he was quite sure that public opinion on this subject would be too strong for it, and this system must cease. He did not wish to make any attack on the landlords of Ireland, but whether there had been a want of experience, or from what cause it might be he could not say, but from some reason or other there had been a failure on the part of the landlords of het Ind. That was the truth, of the accuracy of which he was painfully convinced, and, being convinced, he thought it was his duty to enunciate it. But at the same time he appealed to their Lordships—he ap pealed to those who had watched the progress of the debates , in either House of Parliament--whether in either House any member of her Majesty's Government had 11/7 ed one word of censure towards Ireland without reluctance, and without ex pressing their deep regret at being compelled to use it— whether they had not gone as far as their truth and conscience would allow them, in upholding the right of Ireland to be relieved in such an emergency as the present ; and whether they had not gone as far as their duty to the empire at large would permit them, in asking Parliament to be liberal and most generous at such a period,—( Hear. ) Lord MONTEAGLE said, his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) had not said anything in the course of his a dd ress at a ll calcu lated to reli eve the Noble and Gallant Officer opposite (Lord Lumen) from one of the most cruel and unjust charges —whether contained in a blue book, or in proceedings elsewhere —that it had ever been his lot to find directed against any individual ; and the Noble and Gallant Officer would be less than a man if he had submitted to be held up to public obloquy and not come forward to vindicate himself in the only just and legitimate way that was open to him. He agreed with his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) that great incon venience resulted from the Members of one House referring to the debates in the other ; and when he had been exposed to animadversions in the other House of Parliament he had strictly adhered to this rule until the other night, when he made some reference to what had been said respecting him ; but if this usage was to be adhered to, it was requisite, when charges were to be made against a Noble Lord a Member of that House, that notice should be given to him, in order that he might be prepared to offer a defence; but if he were put upon Isis trial without h av i ng t hi s opportan i ty offered to him, Mr. HUME gave notice that SINDE he . would call the attention of this usage could not be maintained, and the person so attacked the House to the present state of Sinde on this day fortnight. had a perfect right to reply to imputations cast upon him, IMPORTATION OF FOREIGN PROVISIONS. though they were made in the other House of Parliament. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD gave notice that in Com- The Noble Lord had been held up to obloquy because he and rnittee on the Navy Estimates he should move that an humble the other guardians were unable to coll ec t th e r at es ; but when address be presented to the Queen, praying that all the ships_ he found this was the c ise, he came forward and, out of his of-war that were at present unemployed in the naval service of private resources, supported, and still supported, the persons the country should be placed at the disposal of the merchants who in that local ty stood in need of relief. Unfortunately, in for the importation of provisions, the produce of foreign this country such instances were rare, but the occasions which countries, into the United Kingdom. made them necessary, it must be admitted, were also rare. GREECE. The answer of the Noble Earl to the charge of non-payment Lord JOHN MANNERS gave notice that, on Thursday, of the rate was, to his (Lord Monteagle's) mind, most satin- the 25th instant, he would call the attention of the House to factory, as there was not a single rate due on his property, the state of Greece. some of the rates charged against his p ro p er t y not COMPENSATION FROM RAILWAY ACCIDENTS. having been due by him,. But the N o bl e E ar l Colonel SIBTHORP gave notice that in Committee on the had also stated that he had directed the i ssue o f 100 w ee Railway Bill he would move the insertion of a clause com tress warrants against defaulters in the payment of the rates, Pelting railway companies to give compensation for personal and he ( Lord Monteagle) would ask, was it not the most unpa- injuries that may he sustained on railways, as also compen ralleled folly, and would it not be the greatest audacity for any sation to the widows and orphan s of those who may have lost one to make such a statement if he himself were a defaulter ? their lives by such accidents. (Hear, hear.) It had been said that the shield of the Govern- HOUSE OF KEYS. ment was extended over the Irish proprietors in these reports. Dr. BOWRING moved for copies of memorials presented He did not want such a shield to be extended over them, and to the Government, with correspondence, or extracts of cor he denied that the Government officials were warranted in respondence, on the subject of the reform of the House of making the statements they did against the Irish landlords. Keys (in continuation cf the return of the last session).— He th oug h t i t was wrong i n the Government to publish the Agreed to. statements which were to be found in the blue book laid on the IRISH MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS. table of t h e House, for there could be nothing more Captain LAYARD g ave not i ce t h at, on Thursday next, he unfounded th an many of them. What, for instance, could be would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ire more calumnious than to state that certain magistrates had hounded on the people to assassination ? Such a gross in justice, land when it was the intention of her Majesty's Government such an unparalleled and unprecedented a state me nt , to bring forward the Irish Municipal Corporation Act. SUNDAY a 'l p ' o R t A i t i I o N n had never been made in any former blue book presentedtoth - Lord LINCOLN S. from Falkirk, stating House. Another charge was made, that a certain clergyman that the stoppin of th • trains on the Edinburgh and Glasgow in the county Mayo was a firebrand. Now, this was a charge Railway on the g Sabbat e h was a great grievance to the poor, and which, he contended, never should have been made in these Praeing that the House books. Certain statements had been also made with respect to in connexion with that com a would . not pass any 81.1 Father Mathew, which, he thought, would have been better vision to prevent the cessation noir trains on that day. had they been omitted. He thought that the Noble Earl had POOR REMOVAL BILL. fully acquitted himself of the charges made against him. Mr. HENLEY presented a petition complaining of the After a few words from the Marquis of WESTMEATH in operation of this Bill. defence of the Irish landlords, the subject dropped. POOR-LAWS (IRELAND). FIRE AT ST. JOHN'S, NEWFO NDLAND. Mr. POULETT SCROPE wished to put a question to the Lord PORTMAN moved for copies, or extracts of corres• Secretary of State with reference to the existing state of the pondence between the Secretary of State and the Governor of law relative to the legal obligations of poor -law guardians. He Newfoundland on the subject of the fire at St. John's, and the did not mean to bring any charge against the r the measures adopted for the relief of the su ff erers ; an d a l so copies C ast l e b ar union, though he did consider that it dians was o f very or extracts of correspondence between the S ecre t ary o f State d es i ra b le that the House should inquire into their conduct in for the Home Department and the committee for raising sub- order to ascertain whether they or the Poor -law Commis scriptions for the relief of the distress occasioned by the same sioners were in fault. It was necessary to state to the house fire. His object in making the motion was to allay an impress that the Castlebar board of guardians had closed the doors of sion that existed in some parts of England, that only one-half h toeir workhouse against the destitute poor; he would, there of the money collected under the Queen's letter had been ap- fore, put the following questions:— Whether there is at present, propriated to the purpose for which it had been subscribed, and, if so, what legal obligation or responsibility upon boards of and that the other half had been devoted to the building of guardians in Ireland, to relieve the destitute poor in their unions? churches by the Bishop of Newfoundland. If there be, whether any proceedings, by indictment or other- The Marquis of WEST3IEATH asked if it was the Pro- wise, are about to be instituted by direction of her Maje s t y ' s testant Bishop. Government against the board of guardians of the Castlebar Lord PORTMAN presumed that it was the Protestant union, for having for several months past denied relief to num- Bishop. bers of poor, as to whose absolute destitution no doubt could Earl GREY had no objection to produce the papers moved exist, closing the workhouse against them, although not half for by the Noble Lord, and when they should be laid on the full ; whereby it has happened that very many of such desti table he would see that the money had been properly expended, bate poor persons have died of starvation, as the verdicts of nu- PORTUGUESE OFFICERS. merous coroners' inquests held within the said union attest? Lord BEAUMONT gave notice that, on Thursday next, If no effective legal responsibi sty or obligation to relieve the he would put a question, to the Noble Lord the President of destitute rests at present on Irish boards of guardians, to ask the Council respecting the officers of the insurgent army in whether her Majesty's Government de not intend to introducee Portugal, who had lately: surrendered themselves at Torres some effectual obligation of this nature into the Poor Relief Vedras to the forces of the Queen. (Ireland) Bill, whereby security shall be taken against such de- MINIST E RS' MONEY. nial of relief to the destitute poor of Ireland of all classes in future? Lord MONTEAGLE presented a petition from St. Sir GEORGE GREY said that the best answer he could George's, Limerick, against Ministers' money. Also a give to the Hon. Gentleman would be to read the provisions of petition from the town council of Limerick against light dues. the Act under which they were appointed. ( The Hon. Baronet BREWING FROM SUGAR BILL AND DISTILLING then read the sections of the Act, the substance of which was, FROM SUGAR BILL. that u hen once the Commissioners had declared a workhouse it The Eartwof CLARENDON, in moving the second reading for the reception of the destitute poor, the board of guardians of these Bills, said that . the first Bill had come on were at their discretion to admit such as they deemed proper Thursday last, and thesecond had been just up• subjects to the approbation of the Commissioners. Their was received, but as they were ' • similar in their character and provisions, he a legal point raised as to the compulsory power vested thought it would be exp e dient together and read pro that they should be both taken in the Commissioners, over the guardians, and should be take ./Z•niz,, and that the discussion on them he had only to observe that the Cenomiteioners had exercised convenience, therefore, of Committee. To consult the : all their power ever the Castlebar guard! 4 Ds, GI the purpose of abstain at present from entering into Lords Lips, he should i compelling them to abord relief. 1 heir trurts, however, were sped to them ; but he might obser ve‘etYl statement with re- unavailing, and they were then about to dissolve thew as a rat they would be an board by the power 3 vested in them wader the Act. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 16. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY (ISLE OF AX HOLME EXTENSION). On the motion of Mr. B. DENISON this Bill was read a second tine. Sv. IVES (HUNTINGDON) IMPROVEMENT. On the motion of Mr. GREENE, this Bill was read a second time. DUTY ON COPPER ORE. Mr. NIUNTZ presented a petition from Birmingham com plaining of the present high rate of duty on copper ore, and praying for its repeal. - RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL. Colonel CO.NNOLLY presented a petition from the magis trates of Kerry in favour of the measure for promoting rail ways in Ireland. POOR REMOVAL. Mr. BURROWEE's presented a petition from some place (the name of which we could not catch) praying the House to amend the existing Poor Removal Act. DESTITUTE. PERSONS (IRELAND). Mr. HAMILTON presented a petition from Tul!amore ob jetting to the proposed system of out-door relief in the pro visions of the Bill for the Relief of Destitute Persons in Ireland, recently brought before the attention of the House. EMPLOYMENT OF HER MAJESTY'S NAVY. Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented two petitions from Glas gow, praying the Government to employ her Majesty's navy for the purpose of importing► provisions into the country. ELECTORAL DIVISIONS (IRELAND). Sir T. ESMONDE presented a petition from Enniscorthy, praying the House to adopt some measure compelling the pay ment of poor.rates from the unions, instead of the electo ral divisions. DEVELOPMENT OF FREE-TRADE PRINCIPLES. Dr. BOWRING presented a petition from the inhabitants of Bolton praying the House to adopt some measures calculated to develop the principles of free trade to their utmost extent. WASTE LANDS IMPROVEMENT BILL. Mr. V. STUART presented a petition in favour of the Waste Lands Improvement Bill. TEN HOURS' BILL. Mr. BROWN presented a petition, numerously signed by the inhabitants of Liverpool, in favour of the Ten Hours' Bill. RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL. Sir B. H ALL presented a petition in favour of the measure introduced by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, for faci litating the construction of railways in Ireland. TEN HOURS' BILL. Mr. WAK LEY presented a petition from Lancaster, signed by Dr. Fletcher, in favour of the Ten Hours' Bill. Also a petition, signed by ninety workmen in the employ of Messrs. Barnes and Son, of Rochdale, in favour of the Ten Hours' Bill. LIGHT DUES. Mr. FOSTER presented a petition from the shipowners of King's Lynn, praying for the abolition of the light dues. RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. J. O'CONNELL presented a petition (on behalf of the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork), signed by several noblemen, Members of Parliament, landowners, and gentry of Ireland, in favour of the Bill for facilitating the making of rail ways in that country. REDUCTION OF THE DUTY ON TEA. The HoN. MEMBER also presented a petition from the in ' habitants of Kilkenny, praying for a reduction of the duty on tua. MINISTERS' MONEY. The HON. AIEstIER also presented petitions, signed by upwards of 17,000 persons, praying for the abolition of the impost of ministers' money. REPEAL OF TIDE UNION. The Hoff. Maxima also presented a petition from the Mayor and Corporation of Wa'erford, praying for a repeal of the union. ISLES OF ARRAN. I The HoN. illEstafea also presented a petition, signed by the Rev. Patrick Harvey, of Galway, stating that the Isles of Arran had receutly been formed into a distinct barony, but that no baronial sessions had been held for that barony, and praying the House to cause baronial sessions to be held for that barony. SUPPLY OF FOOD FOR IRELAND. The same HoN. Alaariait all') presented a petition from Dublin, signed by 11 peers, 3 high-sheriffs, 28 deputy-lieuten ants, 40 magistrates, and a number of other gentlemen, praying the House to adopt some measures calculated to ensure a speedy supply of provisions for the people of Ireland. Mr. COLLETT presented a petition from Athlone, also praying the House to adopt some measures to feed the people of Ireland. TEN HOURS' BILL. Mr. TUFNELL presented a petition in favour of the Ten Hours' Bill. LIGHT DUES. Mr. HUME presented a petition from the shipowners of Montrose, calling attention to the report of the Committee which sat on the Light Dues the session before last, and pray ing for the abolition of the Light Dues. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION. Mr. EVELYN DE NISON gave notice that he would move for a Select Committee to examine into the working and con stitution of the Ecclesiastical Commission on Thursday, the 25th instant. act of justice to their West Indian colonies, and would not be productive of injury either to the revenue or the agricultural interest. At the plesent time of scarcity and of high prices, he thought they would not be wholly inoperative in alleviating the great distress which prevailed throughout the country. He would now move that the Brewing from Sugar Bill be read a second time. Mr. F. FFCNCH desired to know whether his Hon. Friend was aware thain the month of September last it was found impossible to selnet the rates, and the chairman, the Earl of Dieu, took uponhimself the whole expenses of the house? Was the Right Ho. Gentleman aware that the board of guar dians framed a resoution, which they announced to the Poor law Commissioners stating that it was impossible to collect the rate, and callin g on them to sanction the borrowing of money ? They hat stated in that resolution that they were ready to admit the entire number the house was capable of containing if they hal the means. The Commissioners were a fortnight before the 3 replied to the application, and they then gave a general anawr. Sir G. GREY sail that the report from the Commissioners should be laid on thetable, but at the same time he was bound to state that, judingoy that report, he had no reason to doubt that the rates of the Castlebar union might Lave been much better collected if thi guardians had done their duty. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. ETWALL aimed to bring under the consideration of the House the evidence given before the Andover Union Com mittee of last session together with the report of that Com mittee. Mr. BRIGHT mined for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire ;nto the progress of the cultivation of cotton in India. Lord JOHN MANIsERS moved for leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the laws relating to the disposition of property for pious and :heritable purposes. Mr. GRA l'T AN 'roved for returns of the absentees from Ireland ; the annual value of the property of all absentees assessed to the poor-rue; and the amount of all annuities payable to any person no resident in Ireland. Sir C. NA‘PIER mo'ed for the production of a copy of the report of officers appoirted to make a trial of Capt. Warner's long range, addressed tothe Master-General of the Ordnance. COMMITTEE 0? THE NAVIGATION LAWS. On the motion of Mr. RICARDO to nominate the gentle men to be appointed on the Select Committee on the naviga tion laws, Mr. WAWN objectei to the name of Mr. Bright, and moved that it should bs omitted. In looking over the list he found the names of the representative s of the seaports almost entirely left mit. He hoped, irs order to give satisfac tien to all interests, that the name of the Hon. candidate for Manchester would be left out, and some other substituted. Mr. FER RAND rose to protest against the constitution of the Committee, as he found, out of the list, eleven Members who had voted in favour of free trade. He asked would the country be satisfied with such a C omm i ttee to inquire into the operation of the navigation laws ? It was well known, there fore, that the Committee would report against the con tinuance of those laws as no longer necessary. On these grounds he would decidedly support the motion of the Hon. Member (Ms. Wawn), and would divide the House with him, even if he stood alone. Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the Committee was a fair one. It was thought right that the Vice-President of the Board of Trade should be on the Committee, and if he understood the lion. Member right, he did not object to that. With regard to the name of the Hon. Member for Durham being left out because he was a candidate for Man chester, he (Lord John Russell) never heard of such a thing before. Mr. FINCH was not satisfied with the Committee. It was well known that one of the principal petitions which had led to the appointment of this Committee was from the Manchester Chamber of Commerce. These petitioners were in favour of free trade, and therefore the Hon. Member for Durham would act to secure their support. In fact they were agreed that the navigation-laws should be repealed.— ( Hear, hear.) Seeing the importance of every interest being fully satisfied in the selection of the Committee, he hoped as groat an approximation to impartiality as possible would be made. Mr. LIDDELL was sorry to hear from many of the Hon. Members around him that there was no chance of the country being satisfied with this Committee. Application bad been made to him in the first instance to serve upon the first Committee that had been appointed, but that ap plication he had respectfully deciined ; but, having seen the goo d temper and feeling with which the Right lion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had suggested the recon struction of it, and the fairness with which the mover had acceded to that suggestion, he (Mr. Liddell), on his being Cagain requested to allow his name to be placed on that ommittee, he at once consented. He did not doubt that the country would be satisfied with the constitution of the Com mittee, and, as far as he was concerned, he could assure the House that lie only wished for a fair and impartial inquiry. Mr. BROWNRIGG said, that he was one of the Hon. Members who was, on the first instance, asked to form one of this Committee, and as he had not takes part in the discussion, he might, perhaps, for these reasons, be allowed to address one or two observations to the House. He had, for more than a quarter of a century been engaged in commercial pursuits, and he was, therefore, in possession of some information that might be considered useful in the consideration of this question. He did not throw this out as a warning to the members of the Committee, whom the Noble Lord had described as being eivided into two classes, one of them being persons who would vote for the maintenance of the navigation lacvs,:what ever evidence they might hear, and the other persons who would vote against them, whatever evidence they might hear. Sir HARRY VANE trusted the Honourable Member who had made the motion would not persevere in dividing the House. Mr. WALLACE said he would persist in doing so, even if he went out alone. Mr. BERESFORD explained that in the list he made out the name of the Honourable Member for Boston appeared, hut it was withdrawn at the request of the Hon. Member for the city of London, who was anxious, as he had previously been chairman of a similar Committee, to be Placed on the present one. He represented to the Hon. Member that his health was not such as to admit of his going through the fatigue of a committee man, but the Hon. Member differed with him on that point.—(Hear and Laughter) —and of course he had no alternative but to put his name on the list. Mr. BROWRIGG did not wish it to be understood that he complained of not being put on the Committee. Mr. V. SMITE! objected to the practice of placing on Committees an equal number of Members for or against the particular question referred to them. The reason why the Committees of that House did not arrive at any satisfactory conclusion arose out of the improper mode of nominating these Committees of Hon. Members, who went into the Committee with opinions biassed either to one side or the other. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw ; no division, how ever, took place, the amendment having been withdrawn. The following names were then nominated on the Select Committee:—Mr. Ricardo, Sir Robert Peel, Mr. Mitchell, Alderman Thompson, Mr. Villiers, Sir Howard Douglas, Admiral Dundas, Mr. Lyall, Mr. M`Carthy, Mr. Thomas Baring, Mr. Hume, Mr. Liddell, Mr. Bright, Sir G. Clerk, Me. Milner Gibson. RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL. Lord G. BEN TINCK presented petitions from a relief com mittee of the county of Wexford, and from the counties cf Down and Armagh, in favour of the proposed measure for fa cilitating the construction of ra il ways in Ireland. MODE OF PUNISHMENT ADOPTED BY THE BOARD OF WORKS IN IRELAND. Mr. S. O'BRIEN said he would beg to draw attention b h y w eh punishment.lwe g o h u t l p d o a p r u a m l y a ei t dn i t n h amte resident to a system of punishment enforced by the Board of Works in Ireland. When an outrage took place were thrown out of employment. Ile did not know wau sp consequenceo i mostnf aa nn i t public works in the neighbourhood of whether it was the original intention of the House to admit such in a district, mbbaum tattre t ho h diu e ss teocahvrueeupt overseer sail c eng o ece u rai p n ni t de y o:f he had the honour to represent, 288 men, women, and boys were thrown out of employment. There was no injury inflicted scratc upon the overseer, whose name was Elme, s light h blow from the butt end of a genon his ear, occasioned by a _ (A laugh.) The incident him occurred theedonlethtteer22odf January,daaymoofstlarsetspeeted catholic arch-deacon. and was verified to They were aware that by an order issued in October by the Board of Works the overseers were authorised to dismiss the men on any public work on which violence should have been offered to any officer engaged. This was a most arbitrar power to place in the hands of the overseers. 288 persons em- y P . 'oved upon the Kilmaimham-road w ere di smissed upon the instant, and a list was furnished to the relief committee with the view of excluding them from any other public works. This dismissal affected nearly 900 persons, and a torture was in flicted upon them, with a view of extracting evidence to im plicate the authors of the attack upon the overseer. 850 of those tortured did not knoa , ' the offenders, and had perhaps on.,: eans , aa.nbdlincdhilpdirpeenr,. tondeiscvoiveetrimtsheaxt expressed Ballingarry, the torture was inflicted on never seen them. Of the 208 dismissed, some were boys, and some destitute d aid w e ido a w n s d , whobreak had lto n ne o s otherunider resource u skyreen f bu j t a n t n o a r s y i . t a lb g ny ed tthhee merpn oaa , ria w h of it wee impossible one out of fifty could have known. One of these persons no malice, but requested that they might be allowed to go to It was desirable, as it was said, to inspire in the vrorkhouse these wretches a sentiment of respect for the law for the time to come; so starving fathers were, by their dismissal, obliged to see theie children wanting food without being able to assist them. He had heard of one instance in which 500 famili es had been reduced to absolute famine from the suspension o f public works. His object in rising was to know from the Right Hon. G e ntleman the Secretary for Ireland wh et h er the Go vernment sanctioned the proceedings to which he had re f erred? Mr. LABOUCHERE said it would have been but right for the Mon. Member to have given notice of his intention of bringing the subject forward, and then he would have been prepared to meet the statement. But, with regard t o t h e general policy of the Government, it was undoubtedly t rue that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had found it was ab so l ute l y necessary, for the protection of their servants, and as a duty required of them in order to protect the lives and persons of their officers, to lay it down as a rule that whenever i ns t anc e, injured their o ffi cers, the labourers, in any and where there was good reason to believe that the offending parties were known to any of the other labou rers , to suspend the wor k was given resp ect i ng th e o ff en ders.—(Hear, hear.) He on H. Member con fessed he had b een aston i s h e d a t h e aring the s till such time as informati on ap prove of the sen ti ments conta i ne d in the letter which he had read. He wou ld not y i e ld to t h e Hon. Member in real sym • pathy for the I r i s h p eop l e , b ut a t the sam e time he must say it was the duty o f t h e G overnmen t to see that in pro viding f or t h e employment o f th e p e ople of that country, their servants were protected.—( Hear, hear.) The Lord• Lieutenant believed that the only effectual means of protecting th e o ffi cers of the pu bli c works, was to lay down th a t ru l e, and to act upon i t, an d thehad fully proved the w i s d om o f t h at course.—(Hear.) result of these outr ages h a d ta k en lace, and the perpetrators of them had escape d unpun i shed ; but he was happy tosay taken, that on a recent oc cas i on , w h en an attack on a pu bli c odic er had p place, the labourers on the works did not only not sympathise with and assist the perpetrators of the outrage, but actually rose to defend the officer, and they pursued those persons and took them i n t o cus t o d y. H e was prepare d t o justify the conduct of th e G overnment i n th i s matter, and he did no t th er efore be lieve that the House of Commons, to whom the lion. Member had appealed, would decide that the Government of Ireland had not done its duty in affording that protection to the officers of those public works to which they were entitled, by giving the labourers on these works the deepest interest in pre ven ti ng outrages. lie could not answer the particular question asked him by the Honourable Member, as he had not eiven notice of it, but he had felt it his duty to explain the general principle on which the Government of Ireland had acted. Mr. HUME said that if there was any one subject that should be noticed in this House, this was the most important, because of all the evils in Ireland, this, if not remedied by the Government, would lead to other, and perhaps grea'er evils. They read of murders 1 eevetrated openly and in the day ; of person s enter i ng d we l l i ng. h ouses , an d, a ft er com mitting the m os t b ruta l outrages, escaping unpunished. H e thought, therefore, that so far from incurring blame for the course they had pursued, that they should rather regard it as a means of restoring order. He regretted that any Hon. Member should say in his place that he was glad that the cul prits had escaped ; and he thought, that if this impression of it went abroad, it would do much mischief. Mr. S. O'BRIEN explained that the gentleman who wrote the lett er did not so much rejoice that the culprits had escaped, as that th ey h ad not been subjected to a process of torture to force th em to do that which they would not otherwise do frnrn a sense of duty.—(Oh, ) Lord CLEMENTS congratelated the House upon the firmness the Government had displayed in the present instance. It would be utterly impossible to carry on these works without resorting to the measures authorised by the ► Lord STANLEY observed, that his Noble Friend was quite correct in stating that no discussion should take place on these Bills at this state ; but, at the same time, he thought that the Noble Earl would not have abstained from stating what the grounds were en which it was proposed to make these permanent instead of temporary measures. These measures were introduced under the cover of being temporary. These were Bills which might affect materially this country as well as the colonies, and which, consequently, would affect very important interests. When these measures were brought forward, not as temporary, but as permanent' they ought to look most carefully into all the details and figures. Unless her Majesty's Government should consent to refer these Bills to a Select Committee of that Honey, he gave notice that he would move that these Bills be referred to a Select Committee of that House. Lord MONTEAGLE considered that all the Bills con nected with the subject should be read together. The Earl of CLARENDON was ready to give his Noble Friend the reasons which had induced the Government to in troduce Bills of a permanent character. A pledge had been given in the course of last session on this question which could not consistently be receded from. With respect to the course proposed to be adopted by his Noble Friend opposite, that I these Bills s h ou ld b e re f erre d to a Select Com mittee, he could assure the Noble Lord that there was nothing complicated, but, on the contrary, what was most simple in the details of these Bills. They had already passed through the other House, and even those op. posed to the Bills did not object to the principle upon which they were based. His Noble Friend opposite had stated that it was not his intention to create delay, yet he must say that delay would be created if those Bills were referred to a Select Committee. If the principle of that motion were agreed to, , there was no Bill involving fiscal or commercial details that might not be subjected to delay. He therefore felt himself bJund, on the part of her Majesty's government, to resist the motion of the Noble Lord. With respect to what had been said respecting the Bill relating to the duty on rum, there had been some delay, which could not be avoided. His Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to whom he was speaking yesterday on the question, was of opinion that that Bill should be read first. Lord STANLEY, when he; used the term cover, did not mean what he had said in any offensive sense. The ground on which this measure had born brought forward was not upon any pledge of the House that had been given to relieve immediate distress ; it was distinctly referred to in the Speech of her Majesty as one of those measures to be introduced for the purpose of relieving the dissress that prevailed. After a few words from Earl GREY, the two Bills were read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday. THE DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) BILL. This Bill went through Committee, and was ordered to be reported on Thursday next. Their Lordships then adjourned. order of the Lord-Lieutenant. Ho did not believe that any public office would have been worth a day's purchase had it not been for that order. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said some time previous to the issuing of the order in question, he made a communication to the Government from his part of the country, recommending them to issue it. He was therefore prepared to share its re sponsibility with the Government. Until property was ren dered secure in Ireland, they could not hope that capitalists would invest their money in it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said ha must trespass for a few moments upon the attention of the House, while he made an explanation in reference to a statement he made the other night. On Friday night last he stated, upon the authority of a gentleman well versed in such matters, that only from twenty to thirty men per mile were employed in the construction of a railway, and therefore that only 25 per cent, of the actual cost was expended in labour. Last night the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury said that he had mistaken the meaning of his informant, and he (the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury) had had a commuacation with: him, who stated he meant there were only .25 labourers per mile permanently employed upon a railway. This morning he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had re ceived a letter from the gentleman who supplied him with the information ; and, with the permission of the House, he would read a portion of it. The first paragraph was this : o Of the total cost of railways, 25 per cent. is the outside of what is spent upon the ground in labour. I find, from a large number of results, that the average number of labourers em ployed in the construction of a railway of ordinary character, may be taken at from twenty to thirty men per mile for a pe riod of three years." Now, when he addressed the House he did not say that twenty-five men was the number employed; on the contrary, he took the maximum number, thirty, and then, assuming the quantity of work to be contracted at 1,500 miles, as stated by the Noble Lord the Member fur Lynn, that would give employment to 45,000 men, that was at the rate of thirty men per mile, not twenty-five, as stated by the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury,—(Hear, hear.) The lion. Member for Shrewsbury then went on to say that he (the Chancellor of the Each, quer) had misconceived the information which he had received. He held in his hand a letter from the same gentleman whose information he quoted on Friday last and which he received this morning, written since the delivery of the speech of the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury last night, in which he stated, "I never called upon Mr. Disraeli, or spoke to him, or communicated with him in any way.—(Laughter.) My information to you was fact." He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had no business to state anything more upon this subject, but he thought upon the authority of the extracts which he had read that it would be evident to the House that the rrson from whom he derived his information did not in any way communicate with the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury; secondly, that he did not say that he (the Chancellor of the Ex chcqu,,r) was mistakes as to the information he had given to the House ; thirdly, that he did not incor rectly state the information which he had received; lastly, that no information was given to me by that gentleman, whose name if I were to mention would be considered by all lion. Members as a most competent authority, had been dis proved. He did not believe that the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury would, any more than he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer', state anything to the House which he did not believe to be strictly true ; he believed him perfectly incapable of so doing. After those statements he thought it was evident that the Hon. Member had been misled or imposed upon, and if he would forgive him making a suggestion to the Hon. Member, he would advise him not to make any statements to the House upon which lie could not most correctly rely, and the truth of which he had not most carefully sifted. By acting otherwise the Hon. Member tended to invalidate not only such statements as those he made to the House last night, bug also to detract from the weight of other statements which he might make to the House.— (Hear, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI cou l d assure the Right Hon. Gentle man that if he used any expression in the course of the debate which might have caused him any annoyance, he ex tremely regretted it. He felt that respect for the Right Hon. Gentleman which was always due to his position, his talents, and his allities.—( Hear, hear.) Ile thought, however, that the Right Hon. Gentlemen had wrongly stated the question before the House. What he (Mr. Disraeli) said to the House was, that a gentleman of great experience in the management of railways, and well known in the scientific world, had sup posed, in consequence of the speech of the Right Ho nourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the information he had given him had been misunderstood, He had reason to believe that he was the person referred to by the Right Honourable Gentleman, and larnereed that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should have fallen into such a mistake. The whole rnisunder standing arose from the use of anonymous letters. Had the Right Hon. Gentleman mentioned the name of his informant, there could have been no possible mistake upon the subject. He did not say that he had seen the individual to whom the Right Hon. Gentleman referred, but that he had seen an individual %vim believed himself to be the person referred to. He was authorised to name the person to whom he alluded, but he did not think it fair to do so, especially as the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was present during the interview. Mr. COLLETT said that he would not interfere with the privilege of the Member for Wycombe, but that he hoped to be fortunate enough to catch the eye of the Speaker before the close of the debate. He thanked her Majesty's Govern ment for the course they had pursued with respect to the public works. It had answered in every instance, and men who hail left the country were now enabled to come back with out the fear of being shot at. Lord CLEMENI S wished to put a question to the:Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Right Hon. Gentleman in his speech the other night had stated that the landlords in some parts of Ireland were pur suing a system of ejectment by means of processes for rent to an exent never before known. In one quarter sessions he had said that 6,40) processes had been entered, so that 4,000 were issued by the landlords for rent. He was quite sure that the Right Hon. Gentleman would not wish to make any misstatement with regard to these processes, and he ( Lord Clements), therefore, wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman from what source he derived his information ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he made the statement on the authority of a person who had been in Mayo and through part of Galway, and who had made the communication to the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland. If the Noble Lord wished to ascertain the number of these processes there would not be the least difficulty in movin g for a return of them. sRIS II RAILWAY BILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE. The order of the day for the adjourned debate was then read. Mr. B. OSBORNE said, in rising to address the House he would endeavour to condense his observations as far as the nature of the subject would admit. He quite agreed with what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, that they should steer clear of all party policy or political consideration in discussing this ques tion, so important to the interests of Ireland as well as the in terests of this country. He for one never could admit that there was any distinction between the interests of England and those of Ireland, as that which had a tendency to benefit Ireland also benefited this country.—( Hear, hear.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had fallen into the very error himself of which he warned other Hon. Members. He had expressed himself dissatisfied with the names of the Noble Lord and the two Hon. Members on the back of the Bill. Now he (Mr. B. Osborne) must say that whatever difference of opinion he might have with the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, or the other two Hon. Members, he felt certain that on the present occasion they were sincerely desirous of benefiting Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) This was no party question, and much as he admired the ability of the Hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. D. Browne), he could not see what connexion there was between the earthwork of rail.. ways and the extension of the franchise, or that the principle of laying down railways would have an effect on the Irish Church.--( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member might as well talk of the advantages that would result from a Conservative engineer, or a Protestant surveyor.—( Hear, hear.) In history he recollected a circumstance equally reasonable. It was also during a period of famine. During the great fire of London, when the metropolis was suffering from famine and distress, the people of Ireland sent over 20,000 fat cattle; but the historian said, that so high did party spirit run, and so bigoted were the citizens of London, though many of them were famishing. they refused to taste the beef because they were Popish budeeks.-- ( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But they were so far improved, that none objected to the present scheme, because the Noble Lord who proposed it was a supporter of the Esta blished Church.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. B. Osborne) regretted that the Noble Lord the Member for the city of London had not only opposed the Bill, but held out no hope that a measure fur railways in Ireland would be introduced in the present session. He (Mr. B. Osborne) lamented that inti mation, but having heard it, he was bound to record his vote in favour of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn. While he gave his support to the principle of the Bill, he did not pledge himself to do so in its details ; for when the Noble Lord spoke of 16,000,0001., he thought that he would have rendered him self more popular if he had msntioned a somewhat lesser sum. He would not give his support to the measure on the ground assigned by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr John O'Connell), who was indifferent as to the nature of the works so long as a large sum of money were transmitted to Ireland. He ( Mr. Osborne) would not give the measure his support on that ground, but he believed that the measure or the Noble Lord contemplated profitable works, on which English capital might be safely invested. He could not help observing that Hon. Members who spoke on this question appeared not to have listened to the speeches on the same question by previous Members, or to have even looked at the debate in the news papers, for they brought forward the sa.ne old fallacies which were urged on the first evening by the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and which Were afterwards so triumphantly exploded by the Right Honourable the Lord Mayor of York and his Honourab!cr Friend the Member for Shrewsbury. The Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer had alleged that only twenty. five per cent. of the gross outlay would be expended in labour, whereas it had been proved that from sixty to seventy per cent. would be so expended. It had also been said that it was not right to interfere with pri vate speculation. As applied to England, no doubt that doe. trine was good, but it was entirely different when introduced into Ireland. The Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests a few years ago was of this opinion, and if he was not mistaken, the position the Noble Lord then took was supported by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Member for Portsmouth —nay, the latter Hon Gentleman went so far as to say that he was perfectly astounded at the statement of the Hon. M em b er for Tamworth, that it would be unwisel to interfere with private speculation in Ireland. He came now to the principal objection of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, namely, that he was unwilling that the State should become a great money-lender, He con,idered that it would be much better that the State should be so, than become a profligate spendthrift, disposing of the money of the country in the highways and bye-ways. But what had been the policy of the State ? Why, always that of a money lender. He would mention a fact which could not be too often impressed upon the House, that since the union eighteen millions hail been lent to England and Scotland, out of which only six millions had been repaid, whilst within the same period nine millions had been lent to Ireland, out of which seven millions had been repaid. —(No, no.) That was an account greatly to the shame of those countries, and greatly to the credit of Ireland. He would now refer to the statements of the Hon. Member fur Montrose, an.! he thought that the Hon. Gentleman was a little hard in his observations with re gard to Irish prophets re, and he drew an inference which he was certainly not warranted in doing ;- he objected to Ireland's getting any money slab ss Scotia' A got some also. Now he (Mr. H ume ) should have recollected that Scotland got a very fair share o f pu bli c money. She got upwar d s o f a million of money for the Caledonian Canal.—(Hear, hear.) He drew, moreover, a comparison between the Scotch landed proprietor and the Irish, bidding the latter to "go and do likewise." Now, he would ask, did he know what the Irish landlords were doing. One Noble Lord in the county of Water ford,i w i t h an i ncome of 20,000 ! . a - year , h a d spent 5,0001. n the purchase of Indian meal, and was employing every labourer upon his estates, and every other proprietor in the county was imitating his example ; and he knew tha' the lathes of Ireland were selling their jewels, and disposing of their jointures, in order to alleviate the distress. He did not allude to those who were laying down their carriages, and diminishing their ex penditures, because that was what ought to be done by every one who had a heart to feel, but it was not just to hear the Honourable Member thank his God that he was not the public sinner.--f {, ari hear.) There was the Marquis of Waterford, whose name was never heard but in association with works of charity. What was the reason that the Scotch proprietors availed themselves of the Drainage Act, while the Irish proprietors di not? The Act was so drawn up, that it was impossible for any of them to take advantage of it. Whilst he was on the subject of Scot land, he would state that there was a time when the inhabitants of Paisley —he would not use the term used by another Hon. Gentleman, and say that they came yelling for money—but he would say that they were in great distress, and came to the House for a vote of money. Who were the people who supported them on that occasion ? Why, the Irish Members. An Honourable Gentleman, the other evening, in making his first attempt in that House, had stigmatised the Bill of the Noble Lord as an unusual mea sure, and in his argument he confined himself to the immoral tendency of railways. He said that Irish railways were all bubble transactions. If he held any shares in the Kingstown Railway—which it was clear he did not—and had been in the habit of receiving the dividend, he would have been slower to perceive their immoral tendency, or their ruinous character. The Hon. Member for Sunderlaud had stated that the English capitalists refused to embark their capital in Irish railways, but that was because they had no security for their completion, and if the Government would once assist them, the English capitalists would be the first to come forward. It was not till last week that a grant was made for this railway, amount ing to 78,000/, and it was stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that Mr. Saunders, the secretary to the company. wrote to him, objecting to employ the paupers on the railway. From a letter he had re ceived a few days since from one of the directors of the company, he found that one provision of Le grant was that the able-bodied paupers should be employed by task-work to perform the earthwork of the railway. No notice had been taken of the numerous presentments made to the Exi he quer by the barony over which he had the honeur to preside ; and after a period of four months, the Government had adopted the principle of the soup kitchens, a hint which they took from. that admirable body of men, the Quakers, He did not believe that such benefits would result from this soup measure as were anticipated by the Government. There was no work for the people of Ireland, and the Government ought to establish some system of public works by which the people could obtain provisions. Ile objected to the statements made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the penurious mode of giving relief to the people of Ireland by the landlords of that country. He was sorry not to see the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place. An HoN. MEMBER—He is unwell. 'Mr. B. OSBORNE—He was still more sorry to hear that intelligence, but he did not wonder at it, after the monstrous statements he had made.—(Laughter.) That Right lion. Gentleman had been also most grossly misled upon the subject of the immense number of ejecta - lents served in the county of Galway. He had received a letter from, the lieutenant of the county, stating that there was no authority for any such assertion. He thought that the Government was most seriously to blame in not calling the House together at an earlier period. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury had so attacked and refuted the arguments of the three Chancellors of the Exchequer, that it would be cruel to torture them any more. The Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the other side (Mr. Goulhurn) had said that it was a most injurious thing to raise a loan in a time of peace. Why, was not the present a most pressing emergency, even more severe than the devastations of war ? Besides, was it not more rational to employ the public money for public purposes, than in improving the private estates of the landlords by grants for drainage ?—(Cheers. ) In the vote he was about to give, he did not feel the mis givings of some Hon. Members, that, if the measure were car ried, the Government would resign. It was nothing more than a mere threat—the Government would not resign. Govern ments often take leave but always seem loath to depart, and the threat was nothing more than a mere crack of the whip for the purpose of bringing up the Whig recussants, who could not be brought to vote except under a threat of resignation.— (Cheers.) He called upon the House not to make the present a party question ; but because he considered the sufferings and distress of Ireland as of greater importance than keeping in a mere Whig Ministry, he should give his most cordial support - to the measure of the Noble Lord.—(Cheers.) Colonel CONNOLLY congratulated the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn for the very able and statesmanlike manner in which he had brought the measure under the consideration of the House. He would have no hesitation in saving, that in comparison with the measure brought in by the Govern ment for the relief of Ireland, the Bill of the Noble Lord was perfedtien itself, and, inasmuch as he (Colonel Connolly) preferied a permanent to a temporary measure, bor rowing, and begging, he wood give his most strenuous support to the measure before the House. -- ( Cheers. ) He said he had communicated the statement which he had just made respecting the market of Enniskillen, that the re turns in the one year had been 58,000'., and the next year it had amounted to 9e,0001. ; and, in addition, the amount ef the population of the town itself. He would not at present, remark further upon Enniskillen, for he would return to it; hut from the fact which he had just stated, he passed imme diately to the Ulster Canal, which was the more immediate subject of consideration, and he begged to al the House, after having heard of so great a difference as that between AWOL and 99,0L)0/.. they were prepared to say the Ulster Canal would not ultimately prove remunerative, if only time had been given to improve the traffic, and bring out its pro ductiveness? Again lie said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, attempting to disparage the project of the Noble Lord, had stated that much the greater part of the project had been pro posed to be c..rried out as a matter of private enterprise, and he said that it was proposed to do that at a cost of only 5,000,0001. instead of 1 6,009,000/., the sum asked for by the Noble Lord. But he (Colonel Connolly) had no doubt that by stating that sum the Noble Lord ( Lord G. Bentinck) had given himself ample margin, and unwilling to stand at all in his own light, or to meet unnecessarily the amount of public obloquy which would be raised if the smallest part of his plan were not realised, had named such a sum as he was quite sure would bring the whole project, in all its details, to perfect completion. But when the Chancellor of the Ex hequer com pared the 5,000 0001. with the 16,000,000/. , it was strange that, during the course of the discussion, some had enth ely overlooked so remarkaale a fact, which had been quite, forgotten, that the project of the Noble Lord had been proposed to be carried out by private capital and enter prise, and that these very persons, as soon as they received the encouragement of the Government, would come to the rescue and effectually carry it out. Too much, he thought, had been made of the withdrawal of those persons for the present from the evecution of the works. The House knew well the position in which those persons were—that they were entangled with the difficulties which became general, owing to the un happy state of the money-market. He trusted, however, that they would be able s. on to recover themselves, and he thought the fact that those persons had subscribed for the construction of railways some 5,000,0001., a fact which had been used against the Noble Lord's measure, on the contrary made for that measure, and showed that the moment that Government would sanction the raising of 16,000,0004, those persons would certainly come to the rescue, and make good the effectual realisation of the project. He was sorrry to say that it was the unfortunate condition of Ireland,tbat the attempt to introduce English capital into that country had, left them worse than they were before ; for it had •induced a reckless expenditure of money while the spirit of speculation existed s but the money-market became deranged, and this attempt had ended and left them worse than when it began. It had been said, however, that the pro ject had been brought out only to serve the purposes of the railroad speculators, and not to feed the people of Ireland ; but that was an imputation which, as an Irish Member, not think ing it ever would have been made, but now that it had been made, would repel with the utmost seal. He thought it was much to the credit of the good judgment displayed by the Noble Lord, when, without any Irishmen in his councils, he had brought out so splendid a project. He (Col. Connolly) did not like to say any more in the presence of the Noble Lord himself, or even so much, but eulogium had become very customary in that House, and the Noble Lord would get used to it.—( Laughter.) It had again been stated that the construction of the railways in the east of Ireland, instead of relieving. the Irish people, had actually been a source of poverty to them. Now he did not hesitate to give it his positive denial. He had full opportunity of seeing the operation of railways in Ireland, for his window looked out on two railroads, which ran some ten or tn elvd miles from Dublin. Now although these railways ran through four parishes, there had yet been no presentment for their con struction at the sessions, and all that he as an individual had been called upon to pay, was only 101., to keep down the markets. The House now, then, had two sets of measures be fore them, and it would be for them to give the Preference ; but he asked them whether they were prepared to prefer the mea sures of the Government, which, he could not say, could ore serve life, but rather leave them to die by degrees —measures which certainly would not do more than keep' them in a mere state of existence—or the measure of the Noble Lord, which offered labour and honest remuneration to the starving people, which would give them due support, and would restore them al most to their former position within a reasor:able time ? The latter measure—that proposed by the Noble Lord-- offered not merely a miserable support till August, or autumn next, but labour and remuneration for the next four years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken slightingly of the productiveness of Irish railways. Now he could tell the Right. Honouraole Gentleman, that before the present session he had come along the course of the Mullin gar line, which was a prolongation of two of the best and great trunk lines in Ireland. He was well acquainted with the course of that line, and the course of some o f t h e others, and he was strongly im p re ssed with the productive nature of those lines as soon as they should be completed, and it was OD that ground that he begged the Noble Lord at the head of the Goverment to hand over the money asked for under the Government measures to the Noble Lord who had brought in the present measure. It had been stated, however, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the people of Ireland were not fitted to carry on the works on ra.lways ; but he begged to state, in contradiction to that, on the credit of a document published by Sir John Macneil, where he stated that the people were hard set the first week to earn their wages; the second they could do it tolerably; and the third week they were ambitious of taking task-work, and showed no small amount of cupidity. He said there was one great system of railways projected onwards to Cork, and had been constructed to Carlow. It was of no use to compare the remunerations of that railroad with the London and Birmingham Railway. Why, there were about twenty miles constructed of it at the one end, and about the same extent made at the other extremity, with with a large ga p i n th e m iddl e ; it was impossible that railway could pay. He th o ught that one great desideratum tsuch in a Ireland was a l ine of rail r oad between Dublin and Belfast. But he would just advert shortly to the west of Ireland—to the railway between Derry and Enniskillen. There were some ten miles of rail laid down, all the land had been bargained for, some of it paid for, but it was still unmade; and the question seemed to be in that House whether these speculators ought t o b e encouraged in their useful efforts to benefit the_ populatian. ge looked upon these railways as the best means of g capital into Ireland. There was afield of enterprise open, and there was a starving population who were only eager for em ployment. The Noble Lord's Bill would not on l y fi n i s h the railways already in proiress, but create others which were al most imperatively demanded, and that not at the cost of th public. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had admitted tha the western part of Ireland had been very much neglected On the coast of Galway the sea was teeming with' g a b, for which there was no market, while it vas notorious that fish bought in Galway on the Monday could be dressed and upon the table in the afternoon of Tuesday in Liverpool. If there were proper roads in Ireland, there would be abundance of commerce to carry upon them. In Donegal there was a salmon fishery, from which one hundred tens of salmon was taken every year; and it was an undoubted fact, that trade in salmon had been doubled from the simple cir cumstance of there being a railway between Liverpool and Birmingham.—( Hear, hear.) There was not an inch of gr*und between Dublin and Gslway, or any of the other places mentioned in the Bill, which would not be wonderfully benefited by the measure of the Noble Lord if it was carried out ; the people were starving at each of these places for want of a 'means of communication between them. He had no hesitation in saying that nothing would stimulate the prosperity of Ireland more than the establishment of markets—which were a necessary consequence of good roads. Markets would stimulate the consumptirm of manufac tures ; and thus they would find that there was scarcely a limit which could be put on the beneficial effects of the pro posal of the Noble Lord. He bad heard it said that this was the time to regenerate Ireland. He would say to the Noble Lord the Member for London, that it was the time to re generate Ireland, and the present Bill was the very measure by which it was to be effected.—( Hear, hear.) Captain LAYA RD said that every Hon. Member who was an Irish representative would not fail to join in a feeling of gratitude to the Noble Member for Lynn. He considered that a system of railways would confer great good upon Ire land, but he did not see from whence the money was to come. Where would they find such an enormous sum as 16,00,000/. ? He was content to support top measures of the No ble Lord (Lord J. Russell), because he believed he would a Lot tuts tail in this emergency, but do his best to promote the welfare. of Ireland. Th e l ate G overnment, and those who sti,pporVl that Government, professed themselves anxious to befri'es: Ireland, but th e Noble Lord at the head of the Go vermeil; had proposed an d expresse d hi mse lf d es; rows to carry °I . others in a similar spirit. There were upwards of a mill's , horses in this country who were fed with corn, but he saw reason why th ese h o r ses , b u t more espec i a ll y th ose connecte d with the army, should not be put on a smaller allt;wance. if this were done th ree m illi ons of people would have fotht foe seven or eight m on th s o f th e year . M a ny iraldvlnth tations had b• e n cas t on t h e c h arac t ers of landlords during the debate, but many of them were spec immense sums of money, with the view of providing food foe the people. He read a letter front a gentleman in the Qtiel i county, stating th a t t h e res id ent gent l eman an d o th e rs n„ come forward in a princely manner to relieve their set:feral countrymen, and that the owners of the soil, who were in that part absentees, had contributed but a trifling portion of th at sum. He was well acquainted with Ireland, and his ell perience led him t o f orm h e op i n i on th at a more s ztrinile.t . poor-law was req u i re d, w h ic h wou ld t h row t h e suppor t of tV: poor upon the owners of the sel l an d oth ers , who were conditioi , to pay their quota• towards their support of r, t poor. He felt p rou d, as an E ng li s h man , at tri noble exertions w hi c h h a d b een ma d e i n E ng l an d f or the- xei► j e i of the distress in Ireland. To show that the Irish are e", workers, and could not only rely, when supplied with IT °P e work, on their own exertions, but aid their relatives at ItoT a l ; he read a :ettei fro m a gent l eman i n N ew Y or k, s t a ting' during a short period—since November last—the label/ rot Irish of that city had remitted to their relatives in this cost itt r l 6.50,000 dollars, o r 130,000/. ste:ling. It was an exei , period, but they m us t no t a ll ow t h at excitement to preft their free and cal m j u d gmen t. H e cou ld not sup p or t the pry position of the Noble Lord. Sir J, WALSH had been an attentive obsertre.r ° .f f these debates, and had gath, , red from the speeithers Irish Members of all parties, and from all parts of 11 ' 08 that the Irish peopl e l oo k e d u p on t h e measure i n a kind ! ! spirit, and that it would do much to relieve their sufferiWf„ He thought that in the course of the present debate Mop the arguments of the Ri g ht H on . G ent l eman the Chance of the Exchequer had been entirely demolished. All ttie objections be had urged against the measure had been C O: ~ pletely disposed of. B u t b e f ore go i ng i nto t h e mer les (0; 1 ; 0 question, he (Sir J. Walsh) wou ld remar k th a t it Seoul a l to be the general imp r e s si on th a t th e pota t o cro p was n of er ve i destroyed, but that th ere ex i s t e d no pro b a bility o f it s perpetuated. He regretted to hear this, and hoped that A, ° b g would not be the ease ; for he could not agree with the itige, Hon. Gentleman the Ch ance ll or o f t h e E xc h equer , th e at 0 11 :f would eventually result to the benefit and improvement Ireland. However much he might admire the for re T s, spirit of the Ri g ht H onoura b le Gentleman ' s a' he could not agree with him in the opinions he had exp W' t ; on this subject. Ile was quite persuaded that if the . psis crop was permanently destroyed, there would be the greate r e suffering and distress, and that it would be perfectly impost, for the poorer class of occupiers to maintain their positiott i ". the country. A great deal had also been said respecti4: poor. law for Ireland, but he felt sure that if such a poorer / was carried into effect as many advocated, the whole capitsa!°; the country w o uld b e swallowed up. The property of ';', l country would be borne d own by th e b ur d en , w hile the O is, ' farmers would themselves be the gre ate s t sufferers. et.g& e the cultivation of the waste lands had been recommended sl o panacea. Now he was firmly persuaded that this scheme.", one of the wildest imaginable, and would prove itself anythll but adequate for the evils of I re l an d. The r e c lamation; waste lands required two things—time and capital—wher i e e . the condition of Ireland want e d p rom pt an d ac tive mine o Emigration had also been referred te, and he muchr r gretted that the . G overnmen t h a d ne t b roug ht f or ward a en „, !, prehensive sc h eme as an aux iliary to the other meson they had introduced for the benefit of Ireland. He knee one noble proprietor who had an agent in Canada to se w , all parties who arr i ve d i n th e co l on y from his osi& eis in Ireland, and assisted them in locating themselves U 1,1; colony Th e em i grants , i n consequence , f oun d themse"si among friends as soon as t h ey got t h ere . Such a cyst 0 1 _1 colonisation might be extended under the direction and c en:T t of the Government, —( Hear.) With regard to the pees!r 6 measure, he believed it would awaken the latent energies et% country, and therefore it had his most cordial support. P e i would not speak of its advantages in opening up mines wealth, in accommodating the fishing on the west of Irelst ois or in carrying fuel and other produce all over to country ; but he would say that they would be meets , blame if they neglected to introduce into Ireland one of the greatest means of i m p rovemen t an d human elevation ever 1 0 ,1 vented by the geni us o f m an .—(ll ear , hear.) He had rro Tie sire to go i n t o t h e d eta il s o f t h e ques ti on after the very' , 4 speech of th e H on M em b er f or Shrewseury, but still he sig . follow, anti pick up some facts which he had left untouchen In doing so , h e cou ld not d o b etter t h an to re f er to a report Sir John Macniel, the eminent engineer, made to age 5h,, a ",.. fielders of the Gr ea t S ou th ern an d W estern R a il wa y in 'le tember, 1845. ( Th e H on . M em b er h ere rea d an ex t r act fr . n , „ the report i n quest i on , s t at i ng t h a t, f or a considera"_"‘ time, th ere h a d b een a great num b er o f l a boottr a i employed under him, and that every one was satisfied th e conducted themselves in the most exemplary manner; had. been unskilled labourers, and that throughout the district through which the line passed there was no one unemployed' ) By another report made by the same engineer in the 111 10 1. c, following, it apeared that there were 25,000 labourers ell ployed, all Irishmen, in the district, and the same benefied results were in operation. Another objection which he h aa u r ia urged by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was, that it wo be an injustice to other railways. The Chancellor of the L A chequer re a d a l etter f rom a correspondent of his, and roil all his corr es p on d ents appeared to b e a n on ymous, stating 1 :,,e it would be an act of madness on the part of the Govenals e 74 to encourage all the railways projected in Ireland. It was (PI, clear that railways already establ i shed gained enormously 14450 extension of the railway s y s t em , an d h ecou ld men tion rnanf in which railways would be benefited by the formation of 0 2 waY° lines. N e ith er cou ld i t b e sa id t h at t h e English r*" In would be injured by this measure, for many of the lines would b e i mmense ga i ners b y t h e extens i on ref the g rate way system in Ireland. His Right Hon. Friend h,itd e t,' he that private enterprise ought to carry out these railways, was willing to admit that the carrying out of these imil 3 e„, undertakings by pri va t e en t erpr i se was a great proof of LO. healthy andciveised state of the country. But his Right Hod. Friend might push his argument tco far, and say that these railways ought not to be carried out by any other means. That was not so. Let them look at the Russian railway from Petersburgh to Odessa, which was carried out by the Govern ment, and no one could deny that that line would be of Im mense benefit to the country; and similar circumstances existed in France. He could mention many other instances, but hi' was not willing to occupy the time of the House 101 entering upon them at present. The objection of the Noble Lord was chiefly a financial one, but he thought that it was ant objection which must really rest upon the urgency of the necer city. The N o bl e L or d h a d a l so sa id t h at E ng li s h f un d s wou 141 , not bear thi s great ca ll upon i t, and there could b e no arg urneer f adduced on the subject which was less founded upon fact. lI they could convince the House that the advance was necesettrY o ' could any m an d ou b t t h e capa bi lity of the English na ti o n t o furnish this co m p arat i ve l y trifl i ng sum ? He did not an d stand the Government to object to the advance itself, but only to the security for repayment. Let them see if the railwayy>a Ireland would give a proper security for the payment. It itr peered from an extract from the railway returns, that theme were four railw a y s i n operat i on i n I re l an d —the Dub li n and Kingstown, th e Ul ster R a il way, t h e Dublin and Drogheda, and the Great Southern and Wester n ' The Dublin and Kingstown paid 9 per cent. ; t h e Vete Railway paid s'. lea per cent. on the share capital ii the t)ublin and Drogheda paid 31. 14s. on the share capital , ' although not completed ; and the Great Northern and Wes" tern, which was on ly opene d s i nce A ugust l ast, paid ',IAA" per week, and, deducting 4001. per week for working e l ‘i penses, that would giv e 31 ,200 1 . per annum : Th e length O' the line was 56 miles, and if that, according to the Nohla, Lord, were to cost 16,000/. per mile. that would eV 904,000!. The two-thirds of that wo.ild equal 602,000/., arid the interest at three and a half per cent. would be 21,093/. ; and so they would have a revenue of 31,0001. as & security for 21,000/. per unsure Was not that a proper see , • curity for the money to be advanced? And let them remenee ber that the last railway was only open a few months, very imperectly developed. He felt himself forced to give his vote for his Noble Friend, for the measure was one calce-; hated above all others to give relief to the present distresses* " Ireland. Mr. V. STEWART said, that whatever might be his' opinion on this measure, he trusted that the Noble Lord would not consider him lees grateful than he should be for what be (the Noble Lord) had already done for Ireland. He thought that on such a measure, involving so large a sum as 16,000,000! s brought forward by the Noble Lord, and not by a responsible . Government, sufficient argument had not been adduced to war rant its adoption. Ho thought that the Noble Lord deserved the greatest credit for bringing such a measure before the country, but he thought that the Noble Lord ought only to have tendered it to the Government, and not do as he was then doing, force it upon their consideration. He had not made up his mind, ,however, th a t w hil e hi s country was suffering as i s then was from famine, this measure was the one which the House could hest adopt to alleviate its miseries. The railways must certainly give general employment to the people on three miles on each side of their course, but even with that admis sion, there would be large portions of the country which would not be benefited by it. Although he was quite aware that everybody must be anxious to benefit Ireland, still they must necessarily place the Government in a state of greater difficulty by encumberin g t h em w i t h t h e ra i s i ng of a loan of 16,000,00 0/. That was the moment for any one to step forward, and not interfere by forcing them to adopt measures which a responsible Government would not sanction. He wished to say nothing against the formation of railways in Ireland. If they could be formed by the Government, he thought they would be of great advantage to the country, for he had taken a great part in the Limerick Railway ; and if the Government would give that assistance, he felt it would be of great benefit, but then the counties ought to reader what aid they could in carrying out this design. Sir H. W. BARRON had never felt greater pain in giving a vote than on the present occasion, but he fe t so complicated by his public and by his private engagements, that he could not bring his mind or his conscience to vote against the promo tion of railways in Ireland. Let him not be misunder ssltiogohdt,estforintheerestheldin n r o a t ilwa a ye, sing b l u e t sh y a e r t e, h o e r w h as ad ee t n he • vinced that there was no plan which would beeso likely to promote the interests of that country as the formation of rail ways. Last year he had been one of a deputation, who waited upon the Right lion. Baronet opposite (Sir Robert Peel), at which the Duke of Leinster was the head, to put this measure before the Government of that day. In 1839 he had given vote which was at that time perfectly in coincidence with the views of the Secretary for Ireland ; now •at the head of the Woods and Forests. He had then advocated the views which, he now held, and they were embodied in the three points which he had submitted to the Government. These three points were shortly as follows, and he regretted that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government was not in his place. He had:thenstatei that in Ireland they had no resources, no capital, no machi nery for the formation of railways in Ireland. But in Eng land precisely the contrary was the fact, and in following the • Noble Lord in those views he felt that it was right. Now his principle was this, that if it was right in 1839 to promote the formation of railways in Ireland, it was still more right to do so now. He did not pledge himself to the 16,000,000 1 • , but if the principle were right, then the details were of secondary consequence—( Cries of "No, no.") He might be wrong, but if he understood Parliamentary usage aright, it was that in giving a vote for any measure on the second reading. he was only committing himself to the principle of the measure and not to the details of the plan.—(Hear, hear.) The second portion of the plan was to promote the railways themselves; and the third course was to advance money for the formation of these several railways, and be conscientiously believed that not a shilling would be lost. He would refer to a petition which he had presented in 1839, and he , might say that he should be inconsistent if he did not vote now for that which had been the object of his desire, in 1847. That petition was headed by the Duke of Leinster, followed by the Marquis of Bedford, Earl Mountcashel, and other equally influential men in that country. This petition stated that rail roads were the best means which could possibly be adopted forth° improvement of Ireland. He had ly!en reminded that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer was not Chancellor then, he would not, therefore, quote that gentleman's opinion, but he WOUI I quot e th e op i n i on s t a t e d b y th e H on . Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), and that was, that railroads in Ireland was the only cure fir the evil, and he hoped that his vote would this night be in accordance with his speech in 180.