The Sun. — London, England, 1847-03-30 00:00:00

...--- d Min °I ,ansaciti Earl of, 30Ard v ,es"r 511 s idnel of V ti° Mast er and this e g ivo s f " je e.str— ,ti ac i o usll ~e ss of t ° En bourg,' caPt i t coldt",-, , Frac' Lt Sal* I.4lli eil ra t. L e ' PP or, r aosf gr .w 06 ;orail3g D AV'. Bus. Y. d G. PP VAl f bwing ilw•af' ) land' u nder• I con' vani: I O s ' ad t he diss°' wow elotr e4l Pr e. Coo' f n °l ie 06 3re s ior 11 01 f o t ion red O' IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, March 29. Their Lordships met at Five o'clock. Messengers fro► tLe Commons brought up severgl Bills. NATIONAL SCHEME OF EDUCATION. • Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the Protestant Dissenters of Tunbridge Wells against the Government plan of education. The petitioners sug gested, that if the version of the Scriptures, as au thorised by the Protestant churches, were allowed in school, the benefits of the Government play might be extended to all religious denominations, with the single exception of Socinians and Roman Catholics. He (Lord Brougham) did not coincide in the prayer of the peti tioners, although he respected the feelings which gave rise to their oltjections. He should wish, on a future occasion, to know from the N.:ble Lord opposite if the Government had taken into consideration the same idea that was suggasti:d by these petitioners. Lord DENMAN presented a petition to the same effect from Nottingham. ELECTORAL DIVISIONS (IRELAND). Lord BROUG HA M presented a petition from the rate-pa) ers of the electoral div:sions of Wexford, com plaining of. the present mode of levying the poor-rate. He also presented a petition from Tougham to the same eff ct. BOARD OF WORKS-(IRELAND) . . L , rd BROUGHAM also pr,sented a poition from Mr James Boger, civil engineer, of Talz:ot.st. vet. Dublin, and of Au.tin Friars, in London. c unpl.ining of what he termed a system of jobbi, g N hich wa, practised by the i•fii,:krs of the Board of Work.; in Ballinasloe, and sitting that upw::rds of 70,000/ had been expended by the B ,, art of Works in , h,t dis trict. He stated that it had been intimated that if the engineer employ ed a person who was in the con fidence of the Board of Works that h • would have the contract even at a good price, and it wls intimated that Mr. John Macfnahon, who had married the illegitimate daughter of some officer c 'nnected with the Board of Works, was in the confidence of that board. Under the contract which had been made under this intimation many thousand p 'units had been expended. This the petitioner stated was called a job; he apologised to their L rd ships fur the term, but he believLd that the proper epithet ought to have been used, and it outtht to have been called a fraud. There had been 10,000/. spent on the several contracts, and although the Goverrment had allowed 100,0001, there was a sum of 90,0001. of which there was no account. The petitioner stated that when his Noble Friend the Duke of Wellington was in office, he had saved the country as much as 60,000/, by making representations to his Grace. REMOVAL OF THE IRISH POOR FROM ENGLAND. Lord BROUGHAM would take that opportunity of correcting a misrepresentation of what ne had said the other night with respect to the removal of the Irish paupers from Liverpoul and Glasgow. He had bcen re presented as saying that the Irish paupers should be re moved at once from those towns. He found, on con sultation with Mr. Rushton. that there was great diffi- culty in the law, for although there was a power of transferring Irish and Scotch paupers beyond the water, and beyond the border, yet the doing so was so beset with difficulty that the law could hardly be acted upon. ' Ile trusted, therefore, that some declaratory Act would .1 • shortly be brought in to remedy the evil. Lord DESART said, in reference to a statement which the Noble and Learned Lord had made the other night, that the landholders of Ireland, or their agents, • • had given money to the paupers on their estates, to enable them to go to Liverpool and such places in England, he had written to persons residing in various parts of Ireland upon the subject, and only in one instance had he ascertained that there was any founda tion for the statement of the Noble Lord. Lord BROUGHAM said he made the statement upon the authority of Mr. Rushton, of Liverpool, who had transmitted to him the reports of three police inspectors, ' in which it was stated that many of the Irish paupers of Liverpool had admitted that they had received from three shillings to five shillings from their landlords or their agents to enable them to get to Liverpool. .• The people could not come over for nothing ;it might • be said that the pressure of the famine had sent them over, but then the famine could not pay their passage. Then it had been said that the steam-boat proprieters paid them to come over, but it was absurd to suppose that they would pay them 2s. 6i. to come over, ' for the sake of getting 2s. 6d. to take them back again. He had been informed that numbers of the tenants had received 5/. each to tear or burn doss n their cabins for the sake of enab ling their landlords thus to get rid of them. He could not help making a passing allusion to the praiseworthy conduct of the Society of Friends; they had already raised among themselves upwards of 50,0001. to wards the relief of the Irish poor, and, upon the occasion of the fast day, they not thinking it right to keep that day sacred, had given the half of ° their earnings and profits to the same charitable object. He quite agreed with the Society of Friends •: that works of mercy were better than works of sacr.fice. A Noble Friend of his on the bench was travelling his circuits upon the fast day, and upon arriving at one of t ls'the towns in Wales, he found it quite impossible to ob tain a morsel of bread, or anything in the shape of viands, ~ so completely had the zeal of the Welsh people to keep .-..• ) the fast rummaged the whole of the town.—(Laughter.) A NOBLE LORD —IIi3 Lordship kept the fast. BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY LAWS. Lord ASHBURTON presented a petition from the Merchants and traders of the city of London, pm\ ing their Lordships to alter or amend the laws relating to Bankruptcy and Insole-ncy. The Nob:e Lord consi dered the petition so important that he would move that it should be read. The Clerk at the tab!e, therefore, read the petition. Lord BROUGHANI exp Lined that the newspapers Which had stated that his opinion had changed on the subject of imprisonment for debt were in error. His opinion upon that subject-had undergone no change. NATIONAL SCHEME OF EDUCATION. Lord DESART presented several p,titions against the Government scheme of education. NATIONAL POOR-RATE. Lord WHARNCLIFFE presedted a petition, praying for the enactment of a national poor rate. In doing so, he said that he was still of the opinion which he had expressed last year, that it would be quite unadvisable to enter into the question of the settlement of the poor until the whole matter was under the consideration of Parliament, for if they came to any ill advised altera tion of the Act of last year, he felt'assured that it would lead to great confusion and difficulty for those who had to administer the law. SERVICE IN THE ARMY. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to ask the questions of which he had given notice. He had, therefore, to inquire whether the Bill now introduced into the House of Commons by her Majesty's Govern ment for limiting the time of service in the army has the sanction and approbation of the Commander. in Chief, and if it has originated on his recommendation to her Majesty's Government, or if any opinions have been taken by any board of general officers, or other military authorities on the measure. Whether it is the intention of her Majesty's Ministers to advise her Majesty to issue her royal warrant, as in October, 1806, for fixing and raising the pensions of non-commissioned officers and • soldiers who become entitled to their discharge by, rea son of expiration of certain perWs of service, viz., to non-commissioned officers to ls.t Od., to privates Is., thus returning to the standard thought advisable at that period, -.when limited service was first introduced, in. stead of remaining at the diminished pensions now esta blished. Earl GREY said that although no inconvenience • might arise to the public service by giving an explicit reply to the question, yet it was plainly improper that confidential communications between the Ministers and the Horse Guards should be brought before the House, and he could, therefore, return no answer at all. With respect to the second question, he had to say that n 4, such warrant as that to which" the Noble Marquis al luded had been issued, or was intonded to be issued. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had then to move for copies of all the communications between her Majesty's Ministers and the Horse Guards with . respect to the term of enlistment for service and also with respect to the increase of pen sions, according to the minute of October 18, 1846. As th© oldest general officer in the service, he felt b.,und ' to perform this duty :it was a duty he did not shrink from, because he felt Confident that nine out of ten of the general officers of the army were opposed to this Bill. He thought they had a right to kn. w what were the opinions of the general officers of the army on the sub ject. There was not at present a single military officer in the Cabinet. In matters of law, in the navy, or in the church, the opinions of the dignataries, or the offi cers at the head of the department were studied ; but with respect to the army a great and fundamental change was now to be brought about under the rec ,mmenliaion of the Secretary at War, who was, no doubt, a very respectable sort of gentleman, but certainly knvw no more about the army than one of the clerks at the table. He said that was nut the first time that a limited service had been proposed. A similar proposition was made in' 1806, and before that in 1757. Had the present mea sure resembled that of Mr. Wyndham, who proposed pensions for the soldiers after their service had expired, there would have been some encouragement for the. army. But by this measure it was proposed that at the end of ten years the soldier could demand his dircharge. Now, only let them suppose this arrangement had been in existence during the war. Suppose the Duke of Yu:k had had a number of these young men from twenty . to twenty-five years of age, what would have been the consequence? Why that army, after their first c a tnpaien, was ordered to Copenhagen, thence to Corunna ; from Coruuna to Vimeira, and thence to Talavera. Such was the service which these forces saw. How soon, he asked, could a recruit be fitted for his duty ? Sir C. Napier, an authority on such a subject, had said that an infantry soldier could be fitted for his dut , es completely in three or four years ; but he (i he Marquis of Lot-don derry), as a cavalry officer, t.y.k upon him to sa3 that a good cavalry soldier could nut be made under five or six years. lie could not speak of the artil lery ; but if a cavalry soldier could not be per feetly fitted under that time, en artillery soldier could not be prepared in a shorter period. Their cavalry was not like the cavalry of continental countries, for the officers by purchases or promotions Were always changing, and great irregularity and em barrasstnent wou . d be the consequence of the soldit r. being allowed, at the expiration of ten ye, , rs, to retire from the service. It should be remembered that it - required five years of hard discip.ine to make a good . soldier, it should be remembered also that under the present admirable regulations it would only require a were trifle to buy a man off. The best mode of getting Men for the service was the men that would stand by them the lowest—British well and Britis;; bayonets— and he sine.-rely hopeJ Gov.rum. let would not, for the sake of false theories, go against all practice. Lie thought Government could do no better good than by I re , tormg the pensions of the non c anmissioned efficers And privates to the position in which they stood form r 1:. He entirely concurred in the opinion, that if thi•. Bill sh told pass, that bounties should be given. Ile preferred Mr. Niyalh.tm's. Bill to this, for it OW they would toc planing one large body of soldiers in opposition to another, and he would thereforelecoannenil the Alinlistry to take a leaf out of tit excellent lim4c. He told them b> forehand, in or:ler Oita they !night know what thy had to do. Supposing they saw , that they could not stop the Bid In the other 110m4,, and could nut ttn , refore pre vent this injustice to the old soldier, as compared with the new troops—supposing they were to vote for the whole clause, the Noble Lord must bee what a predica ment they would be in. The army, he believed, was never in higher discipline or in be ter condition than it WE sat the present moment. He believed it was invincible; and as for comparison with foreign armies, there was no sort of comparison that could be instituted with our own, for they were altogether different bodies. Ile had re ceived a letter from an officer of considerable standing in the army, in which that gallant officer denounccd the proposed change as being injor . e us to the discipline and the service of the army. The Noble L trd then pr-ceeded to read an extract from a speech made upon the subject in 1806, by tin- Bight Hon. Geory Canning. in order to ~how that that eminent statt , man's opmiti, was unfavourable t- limit, ii enlistment. Ile WLtille,S th,m tnt. , ,ainst any intern ranee with the discipline ett the army, and tie hoped the House would in SI ace degree cheek he desire of voine Hon. Gemlewen to " experiment's," in matters which they did not understand ; Kith these opinions, he targt d to move for Copies t.f all the correspondence that had tali. , n place upon the subject of this measure, beta Ceti the Government anti the Horse Guards ; also of all the correspondence that had take n place with general officers in reference to the same matter. Esrl GREY said that he would follow the rule of brevity, which the Noble ' Marquis had laid down, on principle, but which he had so much overlooked in practice, He would take another opp e-tunity of speaking to the question of the measure of limited enlistment, for that measure was not yet be fore the House ; but with reference to the motion of the No , le Marquis, he thought it must be apparent to their Lordships that it would be subversive of all the priori. Iles in which the business of the Government was car ried on, if such returns as those moved for were granted. The Government had consulted the authorities of the Horse Guards on the framing of this measure. He trusted that their Lordships would not accede to the proposition of the Noble Lord. The Earl of CARDIGAN said, he must state that he looked with great apprehension on the policy of the Go vernment in the introduction of this Bill, for shortening the period of enlistment in the army. He thought that the objects hich the mea sure contemplated could be better obtained by giving a better pensioe, when those individuals who served were dischareed, and by taking means to shorten the period of colonial service. Even by the present Bill it was only proposed to g,ve. after a period of 34 years' service, a retiring pension of 6d. per day, which was the lowest amount of parochial re►ief given to the persons who were employ eel to break stones. He did' not think that they were thus holding out any inducement to men to enlist in the army. But it' the Legislature did intend to carry ibis measure into a law, he trusted that they would take into consideration the propriety of at any rate restrict ing the present unlimited power which was granted is the men of purchasing their own discharges. He could not conceive how the law could be made to operate in the relief' of men stationed in the colonies. They would be obliged to keep up a perpetual system of transport from this country to the colonies, in order to relieve these men ; and they placed the officers who were there stationed in a most difficult position by removing the men just as they had be come disciplined. He should wish to make one ether observation which he had not seen adverted to in the other House of Parliament. There was a strung prejudice in this country, as their Lordships were aware, against a large standing army. Some of their Lord ships might remember that, ten or fourteen years ago, a large body of men, somewhere above 30,000, marched through the streets of London, in all the pomp and panoply of marshal array. He might be told that that body of men had dispersed quietly; but the Govern ment of the day were not at the time so sanguine of their doitg so, for they had given orders to have every man in readiness who could be found tin the neighbour hood of the metropolis. Now, supposing that at some future time a similarly large body of discharged sol diers—men who had been taught the use of the mus ket for ten years—suppose that these men refused to disperse so quietly as the others had done, he could as sure,their Lordships that it would be found a most diffi cult matter to suppress them. For these rotsens be believed that the intended measure would be found in effective. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had only one observation to make in reply. He had only taken the same course as a Noble Lord opposite had taken, in reply the other night to a Noble Friend of his on his right, and he thought that out of courtesy the papers he asked for might have been granted. If he had been wrong in his supposition that the 6d. a day was not to be granted, he begged to be excused for the error, and would with draw his motion, at least so tar as the first part was concerned. _ _ . _ The motion was then, by leave, withdrawn. COLVILE PEERAGE. Lord COLVILE, after a brief conversation, postponed his motion until to morrow, The Duke of RICHMOND thanked the Noble L , ird on behalf of the Scotch Peerage fur having taken charge of the matter, which he deemed to be of the utmost im p.;rtance. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. The Duke of RICHMOND presented several pen• tions from Sussex and Northamptonshire, aga►nst the !aw of settlement. The ptiiioners from the latter county particularly compla►ned that, at►er having, by subscriptions succeeded in clearing their villages of the persons who were, from their position, best fitted for emigration, they had been inundated with i.oor from out parishes. He thought that certainly the Act of the lust session was one of the must clumsy Amts of legislation that had ever passed any publ►c body, and trusted that the Government would shortly bring forward some men. sure for its amendment. CASE OF MR. BUTT. The Duke of RICHMOND had a petition to present from a person with whom he was unacquainted, of the natne of Butt. This person had been convicted with Lord Cochrane of having spread reports, before it oc curred, of the capture of the late Emperor of the French, fur which, together with his Lordship, he had been subjected to a severe pecuniary penalty. He prayed that, as their Lord-hips had dealt leniently with Lord Cochrane, they would do the sane with him, and return him the 1,0001. in which he had been fined.—(L.iughter.) As he did not intend to take any measures he would simply lay it on the table. WAIERWORKS CLAUSES BILL. The report of this Bill was brought up. MARKETS AND FAIRS CLAUSES BILL. The report of this Bill was also brought up, with a few amendments, and received. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and their Lordships adjourned. THE 3 ON, LONDON,_ TUESDAY HOUSE 01 COII.IIOIVS, March 29. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. DUBLIN CORPORATION lAPROVEMENT BILL. Mr. HAMILTON presented a petition trom sotne place (the name of which we did not hear) against the Dublin Corporation Itnprovement Bill. SECOND READINGS. The following Bills 14 ere read a second time and ordered to be. committed:— Sandwich }Elvin Briitol Building and Improvement. Liverpool Guardian Gas. York Improvement, Lerida bridge and approaches. EDINBURGH AND PERTii RAILWAY. Mr. T. DUNCOIIBE presented a petition from a Mr. J. Brown, a shareholder in the Old Edinburgh and Perth Railway Company, pi ing that the second read ing of the Bill be postponed until the evidence taken before the Committee on Standing Orders• be printed The petitioner alleged that the. report of that Committee was not borne out by the evidence. WEYMOUTEI AND MELCOMBE REGIS BAR. BOUR. Mr. STRUTT moved that the Weymouth and Mel eombe Regis Harbour and Bridge Trusts Bill be term d to the Commissiomrs of Railways ; and that the said Bill be not considered in Committee until the Commis • sinners shall hae reported upon the Bills promoted by the Great Western Railway Company, in conformity with the resolutions of that Home of the 23d day of February.—Agreed to. EDINIIURGH AND PERTH RAILWAY BILL. General MORISON moved the second reading of ti!is Bill.• Mr. T. DUNCONIBE trusted that the second reading wou ld be p o stponed until after the holicla:,vs. No ob jection could be urged against this course, as the delay would t o t cause any embarra•.sinent to the parties in terests, while it would give an opportunity to the peti tionera whom he represented to see the printed evidence taken before the Select Committee. Mr. T. delay. Mr )CH opposed that there were circum stances connected with the reconstruction of this coin. patty which ended for investigation. It was stated in the report that the directors of the old company were the directors of the new. Now the fact was, that only three of these sat upon the new board. Then the plans and specifications ot the old company were taken pos session of by the parties connected with the new, al though they themselves had not in the first instance lodged them. Mr. GREENE suggested that the Bill should be con sidered to, morrow. Mr. DUNCOMBE--Why not say three weeks at once? Mr. ELLICE defended the report of the Committee. That report had nothing to do with the petitioners, and he did not see, therefore, wily a postponement till May should be r,-quired. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE thought there was something very unreasonable in this opposition. The Committee upon the Bill would not, even if the Bill were read a ' second time that day, sit before the 17th of May. He thought the whole of the circumstances in this case so pNcultar that he would move that it be read a second time that day three weelt4. Sir W. HEAIHCOTE explained that, although there were only three names of the registered directors ot the oil c mpany upon the new, the reason was that these geetlemet, had fr •m thee to time retired, and other names had been sulstituted, so that in fact the direction was altogether different at the period of the dissolution of the old company to what it had been at the beginning. Mr. GISBORNE 4prehended that the report of the Standier. Ot,ters G.tutnittee. was presented to the llotisc with the view of beii c..mtirtued, and he thought it nothing but right that the evidenct) should be laid be fore them upon which that r port was founded. He should therefore suppurt the amendment of his Hon. Fii,nd the timber for Finsbury. Mr. STRUT said, with respect to the motion of his Hon. Friend, the Member for Finsbury, it did not appear to inv.:Ave any delay of the Bill, and he was, On that account, not disposed to resist it. lie thought, nowever, that the second reading ought not to be post poned for so long a p,.riod as three weeks. A fortnight world be suttLient. flog ioneiidtoent was then withdrawn. and the second reading wit. postponed till to morrow fortnight. The petition of Mr. Baines, together with the evi dence, was ordered to be printed at the expense of the parties. DODDINGTON RECTORY DIVISION BILL. This Bill was read a third time and passed. SO (TCH UNION.INSURANCECOMPANY'SBILL This Bill was read a third time and passed. PORTLAN I) HARBOURS. _ Mr. HUME brought up the report of the Portland Harbour, 1111. GOV;AINMENT EDUCATION SCHEME. Mr. Hume, Mr. Brotherten, Lord flennikrr, and se veral other Mriabers pre,ented numerous petitions against the Gov rnment EdueAtion scheme. POOR-LAW RELIEF. Mr. RUTI.iLit.FURI) presciite.l a petition from Galv, ay, complainng • f the proposcd alterations front elt-ctoral distrie s to unions. IMPROVEMENT OF LAND IN IRELAND. Mr. S O'BRIEN brought in tee Bill for the improve ment or laid to Inland, hieh wa , read a first time, and the second reading fixed for Tuesday, the 13th f Ap:il. 'Die Hon. mtn-r ala, pre,ented st.-ver.ll pet:nous trim Galway and other pl,et-s, praNing that Ow 700 000 iwrioins now on the politic wo,k, might be etrpl-y4.-d in ihe improver!) , to nt the land. N AV IG A 'HON _LAWS. Cqtain GLADS . IONE pres(nted a petition in favour of the navigaoon lavm POOR-LAW (IRELAND). Mr. DENNISTOUN preserved a petition from Glas gow praying for an elf •ctual Yu•-r-luw for Ireland. • THE GOVERNMENT SC I lEME OF EDUCATION. Lord HARRY VANE presented a petititin from On;- , centers in Hertford against the Government scheme of education. Petitions were presented on the same subjet by Sir George Clerk from several Presbyteries in Scotia, , ,d; by Captain Gordon, from t!ie Ab,•rdeen Presbytery ; by Mr—Hume, from Di-sewers in Bury St. Edmund's; by Sir D. Le Marchant, from several places; and by Lord R. Grosvenor, frau Dissenting congregationti in Middlesex. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE preia nted a petition from the Chorley Union, praying tor the abolition of the law of settlement. POOR-LAW (IRELAND). Mr. P. SCROPE presented m petitiorj from Cork, praying for an effectual poOr.law for Ireland. REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS AND DEATEIS (SCOTLAND). The Earl of LINCOLN presc, - Eted a petition from Forfar against the Registratifa of Births, Deaths, and Marriages Bill for Scotland. CHURCH LEASEHOLDS. Mr. AGLIONBY prrSented a pt titian from Henry Pearson, Esq., barrister, praying the noose to cuLrry into effect the recommendations of the Report from the Select Committee in 1839 on Church Leases, that the enfranchisement of church leaseholds should be en couraged. EMIGRATION. Sir JOHN WALSH said he had observed that; the Colonial Emigration Commissioners had publishedin t heir " Colonisation Circular" several extracts from the agents resident in the colonies, and that all the reports concurred in representing that there was a very large and in creased demand for labour springing up in all the co lonics. He, thet efore, wished to know whether the Hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies would have any objection to lay on the table of the House the whole of the reports from which the extracts had been collected, and whether there were any other reports or correspondence with the colonial authorities which might throw additional light upon this matter ? Mr. HAWES said the reports from Canada, from which extracts had been made, had been printed in ex tense, and placed on the table of the House. With re gard to other reports from Australia and other crdoc.ies, the extracts which had been made contained all dial was valuable. There was nothing more in them hearing upon the subject. They would, therefore, be of no value if produced in extenso. There was, however, no objection at all to produce them. The lion. Baronet was correct in stating that a demand for labour had sprung up. SECONDARY PUNISHMENTS. Mr. HUME wished to ask the Hon. Gentleman a question with reference to a subject which had been greatly discussed in that House—namely, secondary punishments. He understood that a committee of the Council of New South Wales had coll e cted a vast deal of evidence on the subject, and had made a report. He wished to know whether there would be any objection to prodia,e the report and the evi.'ence— the evidence especially, as he believed the report went far to modify the opinions entertained with respect to transportation ? Mr. HAWES said that no official information had been yet receivetl of the proceedings of that committee at the Colonial-office. PROTEATANT CHURCH AT JERUSALEM. Lord PALMERSI2O \, in en.•-wer to an lion. Mem ber, sal that th: s'.! had thane of the coon y vete.' by the late Government ter the butlding t,f This church. had embarked in a Tear, extensive plan than had been at first propos , d, and the consequence was that they had spent all the money which had been voted, and a coesiderable sum in addition. The propriety of giving an additienat sum fur the erection of the church was under the consideration of the Government. POOR LAW—WESTMINSTER. Sir DE LACY EVAYS wished to ask the Right Eton. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department if the proceedings of the Poor•law Cemmissionere with regard to the poor-law guardians of St. James's, West rninster, had received the sanction of the Home-office ? Sir G. GREY said that he believed that the Poor-law Commiesioners had no direct sanction, but they had ob tained the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown. and they had, no doubt. communicated the substance of it to the different boards cf guardians, pointing out what they considered to be the legal construction of the Act. RELIEF WORKS (IRELAND). On the order of the day tor resuming the Committee on the Irish Poor Relief Bill being read, Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN desired to draw the attention of the Government to the dismissal of labourers from the public works in Ireland. It had been intimated in the Right Hon. Gentlemen the Secretary for Ireland's letter, that this dismissal should not take place until other measures should have been adopted, such as the temporary relief Bill. It appeared, however, that in various parts of Ireland the labourer had been dis missed before any such arrangement had taken place. He had received a letter from a Protestant clergyman in the county which he had the honour to represent, which stated that, not only had the engineers, but :the labourers, been dismissed from the public works, the consequence of which would be most fatal. He wished to know, were the Government prepared to lay down any definitive principle upon which they could act. As to the original proposition, no one could complain of i:; but he would press this matter on the attention of the Right Honourable Gentleman. The dismissal of so large a number of the people without providing subsistence of any description, was nothing less than consigning those so dismissed to starvation. Mr. LABOUCIIERE said that the statement he had made on a former occasion was that the rule which the Government had laid down for itself was, that it being expedient and proper to decrease the number of people Employed up,'" the public works—on a certain day the number of persons employed upon those works in Ireland should be reduced by 20 per cent. on the aggregate amount. They had left to the Board of Works in Ireland a discretion as to whether they should in each particular instunce strike off 20 per cent. of the persons employed in the districts. The Board of Works had, in order to meet the views of the Government, struck off only 12 per cent. in many districts, and had i ncrease d the eismissale in others. He held in his hand a letter from Captain O'Brien, which stated that though a great many parsons had been struck off from the pub lic works, et the decrease of 20 per cent. had 'mot been enforced upon all districts. lie was satisfied that, considering the difficulty of so great a change, the reduction had been carried into effect in a most satielactory manner, and without disturbance, xcept in one or two instances. The reduction had been the more easily effected in a partial mariner, as there were many persons upon these public works who ought never to hose! been placed there at all. The result of the reduction would be a beneficial effect upon the condition and cultivation of the country. There was another point referred to by the Hon. Member. It was, that in many cases the parries cm pluyed wtre suddenly discharged Item the public works, giving them no time to obtain assistance frorn the electoral Diviiion Committees. With reference to this he would call their attention to a I. tier which had been received frees Colonel Jones, the chairman of the board of public werks, from which he would read at: • :tract. (The Right Hon. Gentleman read the extract, which was to the effect that sufficient time had been afforded to the parties discharged to find employment under the new arrangements of the electoral divi sion committees.) The object which the Governmen, had in view was to effect the Change in a manner as little calculated as possible to interfere with the em ployment of the people. The Hon. Member had also stated that no means were afforded for the finishing of publiC works that were necessary to he completed. He (Mr. Laboucliete) begged leave to state that this was tot the case. It was arranged -that any works that now required completion should not be pro ceeded with without tee concurrence of the Treasury. The only difference was that any presentments made for the finishing of public works, insteed of being referred to the Lord Lieutenant for confirmation, should be sent, over to the Secretary for tke Houle Department for his . approval. Sir A. BROOKE wished to know whether it was the intention of the electoral division committees to sus pend the public works altogether ? If so, then he would urge on the Government the expediency of waking, some arrangement, by which in June or July unemployed might again be put to labour on public the v,,o r k s. That was the most critical time of the year, when the landed prop rietors could not em p lo y the p eo p le. and therefore eonsething should be done to meet the difficulty He also wished to know whether it was the intention or the Government to establish soup kitchens in all the. electoral divisions throughout Ireland? He took the liberty of suggesting the establishment of soup kitchens, because he believed that they were both economical and adva,nt..g+ ous. t himself had keet three or Can in active operatiuu dueling the winter, besides giving the people in his locality rice.—(Rear.) But in the remote districts it was almost impossible to get places fur them, and to obtain t. e supervision of resp:icfable farmers. Ile recom mended the distribution in such localities of meal and rice, as he had found that lib. of rice and I.llb. of meat mai:e 13ifs. or 141 us. of good nutritious for) .—far superior to abuut." the, therefore, to ,k the liberty of re ow tu, tiding tha Government to consider, in carrying out their plans lot affording relief, whether it would nut be adnitssible distribute meal and rice, in certain proporti , ..i.s, accordity , ' to the wants and nutnbers of tt,o Ninnies. lie a s k e d these questions, acid made these r.commendations, because he wished to:know the in tentions of the Government before .he proceeded to Ireland. Mr. LABOUCHERE replied that it was the inten tion of the tiovernment, as soon as the Relief Act came tnto operation, to reduce the number of persons em ployed on the public works as speedily as possible. %V ail respect to his recommendation with regsrd to the distribution of meal and rice, he could unly sly that the dispensation of relief had been puc in the hands of the Relief Commissioners, and that is nature would vary according to circumstance, — . 1e believed that it would be admiti,l under the most jaw.- c:ous turatigements. As the lion. Gentleman was going to hehula, he recommended hizu to favour the i'oor Iteliet C.iwznissioliers with a visit,us they would Le happy to avali th,tudves of 11is uxperience.—(liar.) INSURICECTION IN CATALONIA. On reams g the order ut the day, Mr. BOli, 11l iv ICK call. d the attention of the Secre • Lary of S ate tor Foreign Affairs to a proclamation Isaac d by General 131eton in Catalonia, and dated the 4th day of Ma: eh, I z)-17, and moved for copies or extracts of any cur espontlence which limy have taken place between the Go vernments of Grt at liritain and Spain upon that and other similar measures. lhe lion. Gentleman then read the articles ut war which had beer' declared. Amongst others, they start d that the whole family of any adult who formed the rebel army should be subject to death, upon proof that they were instrumental in advising or en couraging to the commission of the offence. Un der the regulations of these articles of war the mo ther of General Cabrera was shot because her son had left, t!ie university, and she was unable to state whither ne had gone. rhe perpetrator of that unmanly action had been promoted, As Queen Isabella was unfortu nately an ally of this country, he could only ask the Noble Lard to remonstrate, so as to prevent the recurrence of such barbaritio. The only thing that kept them from being perpetrated even now was the tUrbearance of the people of Spain. (The Hon. XL:Luber read a circular addressed by the Count de Montemolin- to his adherents in Spain, instructing them „not to make reprisals, Out to oppose the enemies. of Spain by steady discipline, order, and conciliatory conduct.) This was dated the 10th Mareb, 1847, and exhibited the spirit by which that Prince was actuated. He could not ask the Noble Lord to interfere in Spa nish politics, but he wished to bring under his notice the fact that the best blood of Spain had been shed in order to establish a Government which was degrading that country in the eyes of Europe, and disgracing the name of woman. He did not allude to the unhappy Princess, who was but the victim of a bad system, but he alluded to her ill-intentioned advisers. On this head he thought it was his duty to call on the Noble Lord to say that the tide of barbarity should be turned,—that hitherto it had come, but it should be allowed to proceed no further. He knew the orders of the House debarred him from referring to other matters equallS , important, but he wee contented to rest upon the statement he had made. He could not read any more extracts with respect to the Conde de Montemulin, but he could not help referring to the proclamation of his father, when he signed his me morable abdication!, in which he stated he would not wild the government of Spain until she was untram melh-d by the machinations of others. Fourteen years' experience had found that the utmost unhappiness had attended the reigns of the Sovereigns of Spain, and that no new Minister had proved an exception to his predecessor in misgovernment. Thus Europe had been startled from time to time, and Spain impoverished and demoralized. It he referred to the speeches which he had made in former Parliaments, he might show that his predictions had fallen far short of what had actually taken place. The question he wished to ask the Right lion. Gentleman was whether any remonstrance had been wade to the G •vernment of Spain, and whether there would be any objection to lay the correspondence on the table of the House. Lord PALMEItSTON said that the ans. er he had to give the lion. Member was that he had no official information with regard to the subject which the Hon. Gentleman had brought under the c Plisideratiou of the House. The first inter mation he had of the c,reutnstances was from certain extracts which had been sent to him by the honourable Gentleman, and of course no steps had been taken by her Majesty's Government. If the lion. Member wished to know the sentiments of her Majesty's Government with regard to that proclamation, he had only to say that any lion. Member in the House had only to consult his own breast to know the feelings of disapprobation, disgust, and indignation which those occurrences had inspired. Colonel Breton, he should add, was no longer in the office he was when that proclamation .as issued. He also wished to say that the object of the l3ritiah Government always was to impress upon the Spanish Government the neces sity of acting upon humane and not barbarous principles. He wished to state that these atrocities had not beef. ceunnitted, as had been represented by the lion. M+ tuber entirely upot the side of the Q,aetfe troops ; in point of tact, they had be n equally committed on both sides. lle regretted to see in the proclamation issued by the Prince r. ference made to ranks and armies. and fields t.) battle. Words which, if they uieaat any thing, meant that it was his intention again to make Spain the ilie.itre of a civil war. lie should he very sorry if stem were the ease; but he would say, that judging by the conduct of the Prince, ever since he came prominently before the public eye, that Spain were again to be made the see' a of civil war, such a course would not be pursued either with his apprebatien or his sanction. He trusted, then, that those who had influence with the Prince would persuade him to restrain his followers.—(Hear, hear.) Sir DE LACY EVANS said that he conld only regret that the Honourable Member did not evince equal anxiety when his own fellow -subjects were affected. He arrived in Spain after the Elliott Convention had been framed, and he continued to serve there fur the period of his engagement ; and with regard to the obsertstions which had been ter,itle, that both sides were equally criminal, he could state, of his own knowledge, that not one gene ral officer who was serving in co-operation with him had attempted to violate that convention, but had been most anxious to keep it inviolate. He knew that the men were liable to atrocities from the enemy, but he so guarded his lines that during two years he had never lost even a sergeant's detachment. Occasionally while fall ing back in columns, or in a state of inebriation, the men were literally kidnapped, and were barbarously mur dered on the authority of those officers who were now erecting the standard of the Conde de Montemolin in Spain. He had on one occasion taken 1,000 men and 100 officers, all of whom he had the right to put to death in retaliation for the murders already committed, but he did not do so, and the men and officers wrote to Don Carlos, deprecating the cruelties to which they:had before been parties, aid employed him to take measures for putting a stop to them.—(Hear.) Now in this he had his vindication and satisfaction for the conduct he had pursued.—(Hear) But what was the consequence after this ? When he had left Spain a number of the soldiers who had served under him again enlisted in the Spanish army, and some time after one hundred of them were taken prisoners in a church and put to death. Lord J. MANNERS said the Hon. Member had taken great credit to himself for not putting 1,000 sol diers and 100 officers, whom lie had taken prisoners, to death ; but in reference to that he would remark that the soldiers of Don Carlos had to resist an unjust inva sion by parties who had no legittrcate right or interest whatever in the country. He would turn from the speech of the Hon. and Gallant Member to the speech of the Noble Lord—a spech which in tone and temper he trusted would, oa all future occasions on this subject, be imitated by him. He further trusted that what had fallen from the Noble Lord would induce every officer in Spain to act on principles more in consonance with humanity and legitimate warfare than the proclamation. of Colonel Breton, referred to by the Hon. Member fur Evesham. Sir DE LACY EVANS wished to ask the Isle. Lord whether it was right that proclamations should be issued from tnis country like the one referred to by the lion. Member for Evesham by an ineividual receiving the hospitality of this country?—(Hear, bear.) Mr. P. I;thiTHWICK thought he had in the course of his ohiervatious guarded himself against any possible allusion to the events of the late civil war in Spain. He had certainly not limed the Hon. and Gallant General opposite. He had certainly never said one word in reference to him, though; the Noble Lord (Lord Palmer ston) had made some reference to it. What be meant to say was, that his observation s had reference to the present state of Spain, and not with respect to war against that country. The proclamation did not denounce war, but it called upon the friends of the Conde dc Lo M rd nie l m) ; l L in M l4 E o ß t St(')FmOuNke—i-Intily answer to the question levied against them. —(Order, ordtreir)isals when war was o f the Ron. and Gallant Member, I beg to say that it would be a great abuse of the hospitality which this country affOrds to every foreigner of any class or rank, who chose to reside here, that they should issue procla mations of any kin( tending to incite war and disturb ance between friendly states.—(Ch eers. ) LANDLORD AND TENANTS BILL. In reply to a question from Mr. P. SCROPE, Lord J. RUSSELL stated that the Government in tended to introduce a Bill on this subject ; but if they should not be enabled to introduce the Bill immediately after Easter, it would be well if the Hon. Gentleman would proceed with his Bill.—(Hear.) MORTALITY IN IRELAND. Lord GEORGE BENTINCK was desirous to re- Slime the inviry he made a few days ago with respect to the mortality in Ireland. He wished to ask the Chief Secretary w hether any serious or energet i c ef f ort w ould be made to tvcertain the number of deaths this year as compared with other years ? He was now about to produce an authority which he was sure the House would not call in question, as to the practicability of procuring such a return. It would be in the recollec tion tY the House, that when he first mooted this ques tion, he was told, in reply, that a registry of deaths was only kept by the Protestant clergy, and that it would be impossible" to obtain from them the deaths of those belonging to the \ Roman Catholic persuasion. Now, he had received a letter from the brother of the bead of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland—(Mr. Sheil—" Who? who?")—the brother of the Archbishop of "Tam—(Cries "He is not the head of the Catholic Church." " Ile is not the head of the Catholic Church," -. from Mr. Shell) —iu IVIORNINCT, MARCH 30, 1847 which it was stated that the return could be ettily furnished. (The Noble Lord here read the letter stating that the number of deaths could be sup plied, and even the names of, the pis ies, arid that the deaths this year were twenty to one as compared with those of any former year.) lie would wish to know whe the Government were prepared or not to send round a circular, asking for the mortality returns w hich had oc curred in those periods which he had before named. Mr. LABOUCIIERE said that on a former occa sion he had stated that he was not prepared to deny that a great mortality had taken place. He had also promised that, as far as.any correct information could be obtained, it should be afforded. The Govern ment had consented to returns of the coroners' inquests, and they had also resorted to other means to obtain in formation. The Noble Lord had directed his attention to a method, namely, by means of the registry kept by the clergy of the Established Church, and in conse quence of the suggestion he wrote to Mr. Redington, who had made the requisite inquiries. and it was the opinion of many Protestant clergymen that the registrit s in the parishes could not be relied upon, for they were only kept of those who were buried in churchyards ad joining the church, and not in open churchyards. The Noble Lord had now called his attention to a new method, namely, through the medium of the Roman Catholic priesthood. Now, be apprehended they had no power to enforce such a return, but he could assure the lion. Gentleman that he would again inquire, and if it was possible to obtain them. and if they were to he relied upon, the Government would cheer fully consent. After a few words from Lord JOHN MANNERS, Lord JOHN RUSSELL begged of the House to re member, that already the public officers of Ireland were taxed almost beyond their power in preparing these re turns, and therefore some allowances ought to be made for delays ; until the returns which had already been ordered had been more advanced than they were at present, it was not advisable to call for other returns. After a few words from Mr. DISRAELI and Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN, Mr. P. SCROPE recommended that there should be taken an accurate census of the destitute of Ireland. Mr. LABOUCHERE was understood to say that such a list had long ago been ordered. POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. The House then went into Committee on this Bill. Mr. P. SCROPE moved the insertion of a clanse similar to clause 10 in the Destitute Persons (Ireland) Bill, for enforcing performance of the;guardians' duties, and also a clause enlarging the maximum extent of land which the guardians of any union are empots erxi tfa purchase or hire and occupy with their workhouse, from twelve to two hundred acres, and likewise that any buildings hired or erected by them upon or near to such land, be considered a part of such workhous'. This system had been tried in England, where it worked well, tending very materially to reclaim the bog land of the country. At Charlion-upon-Medlock, the guardians had attached a large portion of chat moss to their work house, and set their able bodied paupers to work upon it, and the result had been that land which was origi nally not worth a shilling was now valued at 50s. an acre. Now, could not some of the bogs of Ireland be reclaimed in the same way ? The plan was economical and fair, and he could see no objection to its adoption. Mr. W. S. O'BBIEN thought the guardians ought to have the power suggested by the clause of the Hon. Member for Stroud, and he thanked that Hon. Gentle man most cordially fur having brought the matter fot ward. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD agreed with the principle of the clause, and trusted Government would allow it to be inserted in the Bill. Mr. SHAW deplored as much as anybody the con dition of the labouring poor of Ireland, but he thought at the same time that to pauperise the whole of the people, would render their condition even more into lerable than it was at present. Colonel BAWD( N thought that the great difficulty was how to employ the paupers; he thought, however, that a system of labour might be obtained from the paupers in the cultivation of land in such a manner as to provide for their own necessities. Sir G. GREY considered that the Bill, as it at pre sent stood, was the best that could be devised to meet the circumstances of the case ; he should, therefore, feel it his duty to oppose the introduction of the clause. He hoped that by carrying out the system of the re clamation of waste lands, and the other measures of the Government, that ample employment would be found fur the pauper population of Ireland. Mr. P. SCROPE thought that if this clause were not adopted, the workhouses would be filled with able-bodied paupers able to work, but no work at all provided for them. He thought that those persons who considered that, to the people of Ireland, that country would be come a land of Coekayne if the workhouse dietary were to be thrown open to them without labour, placed but little reliance on the vast resources of the country. After a few words from Sir. G. GREY and Mr. SHAW, Sir H. W. BARRON said that the poor labourers of Ireland were almost entirely ignoramt of the principles of agriculture so common both in England and Scot land, and he thought that the establishment of model !arms in connexion with the workhouses of Ireland would be of great service to the people of that country, and by compelling the paupers to work on those farms, a great portion of the expense of their maintenance .could be saved. The plan would also be useful as a test of poverty, for it could not be supposed that a man would c. , ntinue longer in dependence upon the parib by being compelled to work, than if he were touintained in the house without work. Lord J. Itti:;;SELL thought that this measure ought not to be treat , d as a measure for more than one dis tinct object. When the Government proposed a mea sure for public works it was their duty to make it us etf , ctual as possible, and when they proposed a measure such as the pr, sync for the relief of the poor, it was also their duty to make that measure as effectual as possible. With respect to the establishment of model farms, he did not think they could be carried out effectually in connexion a ith a measure for the relief of the pauper. Colonel ItOLLESTON said, if the proposition of the Hon. Member for Stroud were carried to the extent he proposed, he questioned whether the beneficial results he anticipated would follow. He thought, however, that in a modified form it would be productive of good. Sir W. JAMES thought the measure was a necessary experiment, but be considered it was accompanied with considerable danger, and if care were not taken in car rying it into operation, very different effects from those contemplated might be the consequence. This he thought was particularly the case with regard to admi nistering relief to the destitute, when considerable im position might be practised. Mr. LAWLESS hoped to see the time when not a single able-bodied man would be seen enclosed in a work house, and that pauper labour would find employment from other resources. After a few words from Sir H. W. BARRON, Mr. CURTEIS objected to the clause, as it might enable landlords to play into the hands of each other. Alter a few words from Sir George Grey, Lord John Manners, Mr. Shaw, and Mr. V. Stewart, Mr. P. SCROPE withdrew his amendment. Mr. GREGORY then moved the following clause:— And be enacted, that if it shall be proved, to the satis faction of the board of guardians, at any time, that any occupier of laud within such union, rated at a net annual value, not exceeding 51., shall be willing to give up pos session of the said land, whether held under lease or as tenant-at-will, and to emigrate together with all persons who may be dependent upon him for their support and maintenance ; and that such occupier shall have been approved by her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for the Colonies, or such person as he may appoint for that purpose, as a fit and proper person to be admitted as an emigrant ; aid that the immediate lessor of snch occupier is willing, upo❑ the emigration of such occupier and his family. and upon the surrender of the land occupied by him, to torero any claim for rent which he may have upon the said occupier, and also to provide two-thirds of such fair and reasonable sum as shall be required for the emigration of such occupier and his family; then, and in such case, it shall be lawful for the board of guardians of such union, upon payment of such last mentioned sum, to charge upon the rates of the electoral division, and to pay over to such person, and in such manner as shall be directed by the Poor-law Commissioners in aid of the emigration of such occupier, any sum not exceeding one-half of the sum contributed and paid by such immediate lessors as afore said, notwithstanding that any sum or sums so charged and paid may exee,d in any one year one shilling in the pound on the rates of such electoral division, and not. withstanding that such occupier and his tamily may not Ibe, nor have been, inmates of the wo:khouse of such union. The clause was read a first time. Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN wished to move the following clauses, in substitulion of that of his Hon. Friend ; he would not, however, press them upon the House : And, I. whereas it appears that in the formation of elec toral divisions pa Iperism has been so allocated, in re spect of the property liable for its relief, as to cause the nri-ssure of poor-rate taxittion to be very unequal:” be it thirefore enacted tt at the Poor law Commissioners shall revise and reconstitute the electoral divisions of the several unions in such a manner as that the pauperism of each district shall bear to the property liable for its relief , as nearly an uniform prop o rti on throug h ou t each union as circumstances will allow. And be it enacted, that for each electoral di v i s i on t h ere shall be formed a relief. committee, consisting of the justices of the peace residin g or possessin g ra t ea bl e pro perty in such electoral division; of the Roman Catholic, Episcopalian P rotestant, and Presbyt er i an c l ergymen usually o ffi ciating in the churches existing in such electoral division; of the guardians of the po or e l ec t e d f or such electoral divis ion; and of wardens elected in the proportion of one for every inh a b i t ants o f suc h electoral division, according to the census of 1841; which warders shall be elected at the same time and in the same manner as the gaurdians of the poor are elected. And be it enacted, that th.:. relief committees, consti tuted as aOresaid, shall consider and determine who are the persons entitled to receive relief in the several electoral divisions for which they act, and shall certify their opinion with respect to the claims of each such person who may apply for relief to the board of guardians, and shall state whether, in their opinion, the person so applying ought to be relieved in the work house or out of it. And " whereas much inconvenience has been found to result from the great size of several of the unions of Ireland ;" be it enacted, that the Poor law Commissioners shall revise and reconstitute the unions, so that no union shall contain more than one hundred and fifty thousand acres. And whereas it has been kund that the rate required to repay the original cost of building the workhouses presses very unequally upon property in the several unions of Ireland : be it enacted, that the repayment of the loans borrowed under direction of the Poor-law Commissioners, for the construe- , tiOn of the workhouses, shall be defrayed by means of a rate leviable according to the net valuation, as an uniform poundage upon at ratpable property throughout Ireland And whereas it has been found that the standard of valuation differs very much in the several uni ons of Ireland ; be it therefore enacted, that the Poor-law Commissioners shall take immediate steps for obtaining an uniform valuation of rateable property throughout Ireland, in so far as the same may be attained by the Acts now in force relative to Ire'eld. And be it enacted, that persons receiving fixed incomes from rateable pro perty by way of jointure, rent-charge, or any other an nuity, not being created in satisfaction for debt, shall be liable to all rates levied for the relief of the poor in the same manner as if the incomes so received were re ceivable as rent. And be it enacted, that it shall be lawful for the guardians of any union, if they shall so think fit, to put out to nurse and to con tract from half-year to half-year for the maintenance of any orphans or deserted children whom they may consider fit objecti for relief, and to order payment out of the rates, and charge against the union at large such sums as may be agreed upon between the guar dians and the persons so contracting for the main tenance of such orphans or deserted children: pro vided always, that no such contract or payment shall continue after any orphan or deserted child, for whose maintenance such contract shall have been made, shodl have attained the age of thirteen s ears; an I provided als-, that su-h children shall be brought hecore the guardians at least twice in each y.- ar during the sub sistence of such contract; and that in entering into such contract, due provision shall he made for their einea tion and training in habits of industry, during the period of such their maintenance out of the workhouse. And whereas it is expedient to remove the restrictions which tend to prevent boards of guardians from assiging emigration, be it therefore te icted, that it shall be lawful for the guardians of any union, sub ject to the regulations of the Poor law Commissioners, to made with the consent of her Majesty's Principal S cretary of State for the Colonial Department, to assist any poor person who is a fit subject for relief, and who shall have been approved by the Commissioners, to emigrate to a British colony, and to charge the ex penses of such emigration on the union, or electoral division, to which such person would be chargeable if relieved by the guardians. Sir G. GREY said he preferred the clause of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gregory), which tended to promote what was very desirable, namely, emigration. He had a few verbal objections to the clause, which he would suggest at the proper time. Mr. P. HOWARD said that it would be quite a new principle to afford money to parties for emigration out of the pcor-rates. He would suggest that after the word emigrate there should be inserted " to any British colony." Mr. HAMILTON considered that there would be many cases were such words would inflict a positive hardship. Lord J. RUSSELL said he had no objection to the clause as it then stood. Mr. P. HOWARD said that if a man emigrated out of his own private resources, he had a right to go when, he liked, but where he received public money he ought to go to a British colony. Mr. TRELAWNEY hoped that the words would not be inserted. The clause was then agreed to and inserted in the Bill. Mr. GREGORY then rose to move the following clause :—" And be it further enacted, that no person who shall be in the occupation, whether under lease or agreement, or as tenant at will, or from year to year, or in any other manner whatsoever, of any land of greater extent than the of a statute acre, shall be deemed and taken to be a destitute poor person, under the pro visions of this Act, or of any former Act of Parliament ; nor shall it be lawful for any board of guardians to grant any relief whatever, in or out of the workhouse, to any such occupier, his wife, or children ; and if any person having been such occupier as aforesaid, shall apply to say board of guardians for relief, as a destitute poor person, it shall not be lawful to such guardians to grant such relief until they shall be satisfied that such person has ben& fide and without collusion absolutely parted with and surrendered any right or title which he may have had to the occupation of any land over and stove such extent as aforesaid, of one quarter of a statute acre." Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN said that as the Government seemed prepared to concede the clause, it was almost useless for him to object to it; but he could not allow it to pass without entering his protest. An applicant might only require relief for the time being, but the effect of the clause would be to render him perpetually a pauper. Mr. CURTEIS said he would be sorry if tha Go vernment would accede to the proposition which he would tell them would be very unpopular in this coun try. What was a quarter of an acre?—it was nothing; and supposing a man had a lease of the land it might be impossible for him to render It up in order to qualify himself for relief. Sir G. GREY said that a number of persons had been appl)ing for relief who were small landholders, a class of persons who were a principle source of the poverty of the country. The subject had attracted the most serious attention of the Government, and they considered that the principle was good, as it would be a method to remedy the evil to which he had alluded. There must be some limit placed. They could not oblige a man to give up his cottace r garden-ground. As the clause then stood, it would come into operation immediately after the passing of the Act, and the difficulty would be met by inserting after the word " that" the words " from and alter the Ist of November next." After a few .ords from Mr. NEWDEGATE, Mr. BELLEW said that he conceived this clause most • essential to the well working of the Act. There were an immense number of holders of land in Ireland where farmers were under five acres, and who by relain ing them, and still b, corning entitled to relief, woull most seriously injure the country. Tire Bill could not be complete without such a clause, Mr. POLTLETT SCROPE said that the Bid would cause amoit st rious s. mal revolution in Ireland. and if it could eff,ct its object quietly, it would be desirable ; but if in the event of another famine, all theie small holders were to be compelled to give up their farms, how could they be provided with labour or subsistence when the crisis was passed. lle would wish to know if the Right lion. Gentleman c,nisiderei it consistent with the principle of the Bill, that a man who might suffer from temporary distress or sickness should be compelled to give up his farm to obtain relief. He thought it would be far better to leave the matter to the discretion of the board of guardians to give relief or withhold it in cer tain cases. Unless some such power were given, the Bill would have a most ruinous affect. Mr. SFIARMAN CRAWFORD was not disposed to deny that some limitation was necessary in the case of holders of land, but still he could not agree with the clause as it then stood. Suppose a man were overtaken by sickness or any ether casualty, and was compelled to seek relief, was he to be deprived of his land 01 cottage and the well-earned fruits of his labour ? Could not some relief be extended in such cases in the way of loans ? He thought that the board of guardians should have a discretion in such a case. Mr. BELLEW said that in the case of a man being sick, there was the sum of 100,0001. per annum levied in Ireland for hospitals and dispensaries. The poor were as well taken care of in the event of sickness as they possibly could be Mr. YOUNG said that the Hon. Member for Stroud had said that this clause would produce a sudden revolu tion in Ireland by suddenly reducing men from being landholders to paupers. There was nothing in the clause that would at all accelerate a man's fall. It merely pro vided that, in the event of his becoming . chargeable upon the poor-rates, he should no longer retain the land which he could no longer cultivate with benefit to himself or to the country. Mr. NEWDEGATE said that he wished to explain what he had said. He had strenuously impressed upon the Government that in no instance should the tools of a man's trade be taken from him. The operation of the present clause was so stringent that a man's tools were taken from him, and he ha wished to provide against any such fact under the present law. After a few words from Mr. WILLIAMS and Mr. VILLIEns, Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought the clause was neces sary for the welfare of the agriculture of Ireland. There never would be a system of money wages introduced into that country, except by a provision of this kind ; and he was therefore glad the Government had given their sanction to the principle of the clause. Mr. S. CRAWFORD said there was this difference between the poor labourer in England and Ireland, that whereas in England he had a cottage built fur him, in Ireland he built it himself on land which he held at will. This ought to bo taken into consideration in dealing with a question of this land. Mr. GREGORY ft-plied to some objections urged by previous speakers to the clause. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thought the clause would be a very useful one. It would do away with that class who were half labourer and half farmer, but' nei ther the one nor the other. He gave the principle of the Bill his decided support. After a few words from Mr. CURTEIS, Colonel RAWDON supported:the clause, which he thought would prove a very useful provision in the Bill. Mr. ARC 11 BOLD said he bad known holders of twenty acres of land applying for work under the La bour-rate Act, and there were cases in which the chil dren of holders of ten acres actually were employed, and employed, perhaps, even to the present day. He would support the clause under the impression that if such parties would continue to ask relief, the sooner they were off' the Land the better. Mr. SHAW supported the clause. Mr. Alderman HUMPHERY thought it would be too bad to deprive such small holders of- land of the relict which the Bill would give them. He would suggest as an amendment that holders of five acres, instead of one half acre, should be excluded from the benefit of the Bill. Sir GEORGE GREY said he thought the Hon. Mem ber did not understand the nature of the clause. Ac cording to his amendment, a person might hold four and three-quarter acres, and yet be entitled to relief. The original amendment was then agreed to. On the motion being put that the clause as amended stand part of the Bill, Mr. P. SCROPE objected to it as severe and uncalled for. The Gallery was then clearel for a division, when there appeared. 117 For Ilause Against it —llO Majority for the clause The clause was, therefore, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN then moved that the follow ing clauses should be added to the Bill:—And " whereas it appears that in the formation of electoral divisions pauperism has been so allocated, in respect of the pro perty liable for its relief, as to cause the pressur e o f poor-rate taxation to be very unequal:" be it therefore enacted, that the Poor-law Commissioners shall revise and reconstitute the electoral divisions of the several unions in such a manner as that the pauperism of each district shall bear to the property liable for its relief, as nearly an uniform proportion throughout each union ar circumstances will allow. And be it enacted, that for each electoral division there shall be formed a relief commit tee, consisting of the justices of the peace residing or pos sessing rateable property in such electoral division ; of the Roman Catholic, El . s!opeliar; Pitt, stant, and Pres byterian clergymen usually officiating in the churches existing in such electoral division ; of the guardians of the poor elected for such electoral division ; end of wardens elected in the proportion of one for every inhabitants of such electoral division, ac cording to the census of 1841 ; which wardens shall be elected at the same time and in the same manner as the guardians of the poor are elected. And be it en acted, that the relief committees, constituted as afore . said, shall consider and determine who are the persons entitled to receive relief in the several electoral divisions for which they act, and shall certify their opinion with respect to the claims of each such person who may apply for relief to the board of guardian, and shall state whether, in their opinion, the person so ap plying ought to be relieved in the workhouse or out of it. Sir GEORGE GREY thought it would be actually impt , ssible to act upon the principle laid down by the llon. Gentleman in his first clause. Mr. HAMILTON said the d;s,pprohation of the dig ti;alate rela,ion establi.ind by the electoral divisions betwe-ll the population tiNd the property was universal. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL corroborated the observa tion of the lion. Gentkman. Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN said the divi,ions into unions were most unequal. Jr Ra:hdown Union, fur example, there were 69 000 acres, m.ttile in oilier unions there were so mar:y as 498.000 acres, and 3c)0.000 acres, an ine quality for whi , h there was no at.sionab'e retons. Some change vva•i eliarly very de , irable in this r, spect. The clauscs were negatived witio a division. Mr. SMI O'BRIEN th,n moved the following clause :—And " whereas much inc: nvenience has been found to result fr:m the great size of several of the unions of Ireland ;" Be it enacted, that the Poorlaw Commissioners shall revise and reconstitute the unions, so that no union shall contain more than one hundred and fifty thousand acres. Mr. VESEY trusted that some measure would be :ken to subdivide the unions, and he hoped also that the electoral districts would be so arranged as to bear some proportion to the local properties. Sir G. GREY said that the Commissioners had the power of reconsidering and arranging the limits of the electoral districts, and he saw no reason why the same rule should not apply to the unions also. Lord G. BENTINCK had always advocated the ex- tension of the unions. The districts at present were immensely disproportioned to the population, in some instances the applicants for relief having to walk seventeen miles, and i❑ a very great number of cases the distance was equally great. The district compre hended in the Baliina union was very extensive, and what made the evil the worse was, that the union was situated at the one extremity of the dis trict, and the western, or more populous part of the district, was some forty-six miles distant.— (Hear, hear.) He believed that the system of union government, and more especially of that part of it which referred to the care of the sick, was capable of very great improvement. Perhaps it might be within the knowledge of the Hon. Gentleman the Solicitor- General for Ireland, that in the year 1843, when Mr. Gulston was in Galway there were upwards of two thousand persons lying ill of fever 1,500 of which number were in the streets and lanes of the town, and many of them were exposed before the doors of their houses, with scarcely a rag to cover /hem. In the course of 48 hours Mr. (julston constructed a fever hospital, at an expense of 3001., capable of contain ing one thousand inmates. The result was, that out of the 2,000 persons that passed through the fever hOspital, only 17 died. Now, if this principle had been adopted in the present session, the Government might have saved an enormous sum of money, and the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. He eas sure that in the year 1847 not Jess than 4.000,000 L would have been saved to the revenue of Great Britain. The expense of the public works for the year ending the 13th of March instant, amounted to no less than 13,142,000/. The ex pense of the staff alone was 1,193,0001. Kow, he was in a conditi, n to show that if they had extended the work houses—if they had built 400 workhouses upon the same principle as that upon which Mr. Gulston con structed a similar building in Galway, and supported in them the 2,200,000 paupers of Ireland, they would not only have saved 4,000,0001., but they would have in creased the comforts of the poor, and avoided all chance of demoralising the peasantry. There would ['eve been no forsaking the land for being employed on the public works ; and, had recourse been had to this 53 stem, hundreds and thousands of lives would have been saved, while the general condi tion of the people would have been greatly improved. Government could tell them the number of potatoes which Ireland had produced, but they would not give them a return of the number of poor wretches who had perished under the foolish system of free trade. When Government, in the month of August, knew that the po tato, .he only food of the people, had failed, they ought to had taken decisive steps to supply the wants of the people with another description of food, but instead of doing so, Government had sbown an utter indifference for the sufferings of the people, and now they boldly refused to supply the House with any infor mation upon the great misery of Ireland ; but he could tell them that the time was coming when it would be wrung from them by the united voice of the three kingdoms. Mr. LABOUCHERE was anxious that the House should proceed with the consideration of this important Bill, and he should not then intrude himself upon the House had it not b'en tor an tls , .ettion of the Noble rd. He owed it to himself, to his own character, and the feelings of the Government with whom he acted, to make scum reply to it. The Noble Lord had said that Government were indifferent to the sufferings of the people of Ireland ; and he should content himself with giving a contradiction to that assertion as explicit and as complete as his resp,ct for the House would allow him to give.—(Cheer,..) Ile felt too deeply the responsibilities which re,ted upon him, as a Minister of tie Crown, to lose his temper in dis cussing a question of this magnitude, and no provoca tion should induce him to do so, and nothing but the provocation the Noble Lord had given could have called from him the declaration he had made. He trusted that he had not expressed auy sentiment in opposition to the principle of the Bill, or that he had not displayed a spirit which was not in perfect consonance with that which the Government desired to display, but if he had it had been elicited by the charge which the Noble Lord had so unjustifially brought against the Government. Sir G. GREY trusted that the observations which had been made were not in consonance with those which had been evinced by the enunciation of the Noble Lord's views ; and it should be recollected that the cases which had been adduced were in contravention of the principle which h had propounded. There would be ample opportunity fce discussing them in the Com ' mittee, when the clauses were brought under the notice of the House. He sincerely hoped that the Hon. Mem ber would not press any of his suggestions to a division. Mr. REPTON had not the slightest wish to detain the House from the discussion of the clauses, and must say that he gave the greatest credit to the Government for their exertions to relieve the distress in Ireland. Mr. S. O'BRIEN had, no more than the last Member, a wish to detain the House from the consideration of the subject b«-fore them ; but he believed that in the doc trines of free trade, to which they professed their adhe rence, there was a remedy to be found ; and if they had acted up to those principles, he believed that it was not neees;ary that a single life should be sacrificed in Ire land. He trusted, therefore, that they would not now depart from their principles, but that they would recol lect what was the amount of distress that was likely to ensue from a too astringent adhesion by them. On the clause bsing put by Mr. GREENE, Mr. NEW DEGA'rE said that it was very possible that the Noble Lord had used expressions stronger than the meaning which he intended they should bear— (Laughter)—but while saying this, be was quite ready to give her Majesty's Government credit for every desire tey wi s t e h e o m u e t d a to relieve the distress in Ireland, but t o d o th at t h ey to be division, bo bound. must depart from their rigid c o ns t ruc ti on o f t h e priucPn les of T p( h tl e it e tt l a a l us e e co w n s m then e D n Y which negativedh on the proposition that the origina • • 1 clause should be brought up with the report, Mr. HAMILTON and Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN expressed doubts as to the way in which it was 1 kely to work. Sir GEORGE GREY explained that it would not depend on the guardians so much as on the Act itself. Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN proposed the insertion of the following clauses :—And whereas it has been found that the rate required to repay the original cost of building the workhouses presses very unequally upon property in the several unions in Ireland ; be it enacted, that the repayment of the loans borrowed under direc tion of the Poor-law Commissioners, for the construction of the workhouses, shall be defrays d by means of a rate leviable according to the net valuation, as an uniform poundage upon all rateable property throughout Ireland. And whereas it has been found that the standard of valuation differs very much in the several unions of Ire land; be it therefore enacted, that the Poor-law Com missioners shall take immediate steps for obtaining an uniform valuation of rateable property throughout Ire land, in so far as the same may be attained by the Acts now in force relative to valuation. And be it enacted, that persons receiving fixed incomes from rateable property by way of jointure, rent-charge, or any other annuity, not being created in satisfaction for debt, shall be liable to all rates levied for the relief of the poor in the same manner as it the incomes so received were receivable as rent. And be it enacted, that it shall be lawful for the guardians of any union, if they shall so think fit, to put out to nurse and to contract from half-year to half-year for nance of any orphans or deserted children whom they order ma y consider fit objects for relief, and to ord pa-yme nt out of the rates, and charge against th e large such at such sums as may be agreed upon between the guardians and the persons so contracting for the maintenance of ac's orphans or desert, d children. Provided always, that no such contrAct or y sh 11 . continue after t a any orphan or deserted child, for whose maintenance_ such contract shall have been i made, shall hale attained the age of thirt e en years. After a short discussion, in which Sir G. Grey, Morgan J. O'Connell, Mr. Bellow, Sir H. W. Barren, Mr. Shaw, and Mr. Archbold took part, the chases were negatives. Sir GEORGE GREY introduced a clause, removing the restriction of a three months' residence in the union workhouse previous to establishing a claim to emigration relief, which was agreed to. Mr. VILLIERS STUART moved the following clauses :—And whereas in many districts in Ireland, from the local position of the county infirmary, the poor, who from accidents or other causes may require surgical assistance in an hospital, are unable from the distance of the said infirmary to obtain it, and it is desirable that this evil should be remedied : be it enacted, that it sh .11 be lawful for the guardians of any union for the relief of the poor in Ireland, to attach to the poorhouse of the said union, provided I