The Sun. — London, England, 1847-02-06 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVNINGL_ IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 5. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack at Five o'clock. EXCHEQUER -BILLS AND RAILWAY DIVI DENDS. • Lord BROUGHAM moved a return of the Ist of Fe prices of Exchequer-bills, of ai o bruary, 1846, to the I st of Febdmor the ru ary n , railway stock 1847, and for a return of the dividends p_ He also moved for a • during the'. same ri shareseproprietors. re turn of the names Poefriaoldl4l7h,ewhhooldweerrseolyirashilpwraeyp on the Ist of February, 8 _ His object was not one lot meren i t te ti c n u n ri n os f it a y e , sim bu n t a a tin s it g i a pp eare d that there was some Ireland with England,right thmaitthtiksninefwormheaw .n tion should be given h. o t r w d u e that but they might . to legislate. Ile desired tis the more as he found that a s t a tement had been made last night in another place, the object, the express object, of which was to raise the price of railway s hares by distributing money through out the country, so that those shares which stood at 1002 m ight be raised to 2001. He would take that oppor tunity of vindicating himself from a grievous misrepre sentation. He did not generally care about misrepre sentation; but he had been so painfully assailed by so many letters, that he wished to put himself right, - for he was described as one of the most cruel and hard-hearted individuals in existence. It was stated that he wished to raise the price of bread. What he actually said was, that it was better that bread should be • dear rather than cheap in a time of scarcity ; for if wheat were to be brought to market cheap at such a - period the whole produce would quickly be bought up; and thus, if there was a scarcity in the month of February, that scarcity would become fa mine in the month of June. The very words he used were, that he would rather bread was dear than cheap, lest scarcity should become dearth, and dearth be converted into famine. His Noble Friend ..(the Duke of Rutland) had put his establishment on three-fifths of their usual allowance, and he had done the same. The question of price did not affect such persons as his Noble Friend and himself, but it did naturally affect the poor labourer, and therefore he de sired that the bread should be kept up, so that the whole of the supplies should be exhausted before they got the 'fresh harvest in. He thought that in times of distress, especially, public men should not be misrepresented. Lord STANLEY perfectly agreed with his Noble 'Friend (Lord Brougham) that public men should not be misrepresented, but he had stated that a great and com prehensive measure which was introduced the other night in another place was brought in solely for the purpose of raising the price of shares. A more frivolous misrepresentation could not be made. He did not intend to stop then to urge the policy of the measure of his Noble , Friend, because, unless the interposition of the Crown were exercised to pass it into a law, without the intervention of their Lordships, it would shortly come before them for discussion, but he could not forbear stating that the object of the Bill was not to raise the value of rail way shares in Ireland, but for the purpose of promoting its interests, without adding one shilling to the taxes of the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.) It was for carrying out works of great public utility, which,.with out the aid of the State, must be discontinued at the very time when they were most necessary—for the purpose of encouraging and improving the condition of the agricultural labourers of that country, and for fur nishing the means for giving constant employment to a large portion of the population for the next four years at least, but not withdrawing them from agricultural employment by giving them too easy or too well-paid work. The object was to facilitate improvements in the internal communication of the country, at a time when capital from private individuals was checked, on account of the deplorable condition of the people. Entertaining great respect for his Noble Friend in another place (Lord G. Bentinck), and for his Noble and Learned Friend in that House (Lord Brougham), he could notallow it to go forth that the scheme propounded by his Noble Friend had for its object to increase the value of railway shares, because it had for its object, as he had said, the promo tion of great national improvements of great public advantage, without casting any additional burdens on the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.) Lord BROUGHAM thought his Noble Friend must have been attending to something else, and not being able to listen to two things at once, had attributed a statement to him which he did not make. He did not say that the object of the Bill was for the purpose of bene fiting private individuals by enabling them to sell their shares at a higher value - than they could at present. Un doubtedly the groundwork of the measure was to apply capital to Irish railways, and to enable railway owners to sell their railway shares. What he stated was, that fof i every 1001. worth of shares sold out another 1001. worth would be bought in. He had not read the debate of last night—in fact, he was not often in the habit of reading them—but a friend had informed hire that the Bill would enable the holders of shares to sell them, and to invent their capital in others. He had no monomania against railways; he only wanted to see them carried out at the expense of their promoters, and not at the expense of others. The Duke of RICHMOND could not allow the mea sure to be disposed of in the preterit manner without saving a few words on the subject. It was a measure calcarated to be of more permanent service than any measure which had evsr been introduced since he had been in that House. It appeared to him to commence at the right end—(Cheers)—and would induce capital to flow from this country to Ireland, and the conse quence would be that the Irish people would consume more exciseable articles, be better able to live on the produce of their own agriculture; it would improve the morals of the people, and it would also be the means o enabling them to consume more manufacturer goods, and thereby- extending the home markets, which after all, wes the f:undation of the great prosperity of this country. He de/ not oppose the motion of hi Nobl:3 and Learned Friend, and he honed that then would be enough English and Scotch dhmbers tc carry that Bill through who were not in the least connected with railways. (Cheers.) The pool , le of England were not ealed upon to give money by this measure to the pyoplo of Ireland; the measure was one which would take nothing out of the pockets of the pepple of England, but would give support to the people of Ireland.—(Cheers.) Earl FITZWILLIANI said that he had nothing to offer in opposition to the motion of the Noble and Learned Lord. lie regretted the tone of the conversa tion which had taken place on the subject. It might be considered that the Noble and Learned Lord had some sidelong view in wishing to have the names of ail those persons who might be possessed of shares in Irish railways. He was aware, on looking to the votes of the House of Commons, that a measure had been in • troduced into that House for the purpose of facilitating the making of railroads in Ireland. He then looked anxiously to see whether the B:11 was brought in by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government ; he was disappointed, however, to see ,that the Noble Lord was not the author of the Bill ; but when he saw, not from the official aceeunte but from accounts, though not official, perhaps quite as accurate, that the Bill was in such very able hands as the Nob'e Lord's who had introduced it, he was much gretified.— (Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord had exhibited zeal, industry, and ability, which had entitled him to the gratitude of the Irish people and the united empire. He wished that the measure had been in the hands of the Government, and that they had had the credit of introducing such a crowning measure as had been introduced.—(Cheers.) He hoped there would be no interference with the prerogative to pre vent the measure passing.—(Cheers.) He came down to the House determined to express his opinions upon the subject ; and, considering the relation in which he stood with her Majesty's Government, he felt it his duty to state to them what course he meant to pursue. He could not conceive that, as they were not the au thors of the measures, it would not be agreeable to them that he should rise and express his opinions in favour of the measure.—(Cheers.) In whatever hands the measure may be in, when it came up to their Lord ships' House, he was determined to give it his most strenuous and undivided support. He certainly thought that the Railway system should be in the hands of the Government rather than of individual members or com panies, who would be supposed always to study their own interests rather than the great interests of the whole country, and especially Ireland in its present state. He had deep rooted opinions that the whole railway system should be in the hands of the Government. It was a most anomalous thing, that all the means of travelling should be in the hands of some great companies. These opinions he had entertained and expressed, for many years, to their Lordships. He hoped the Government would take the measure into their own hands, as he believed it would be ofsmore use than any other measure which had been brought under the notice of the House by her Majesty's Ministers. Now he was not going to express any opinion, either for or against the landlords of Ireland, but he thought that the measure which contemplated the im provement of the country through the instru mentality of one class could not possibly produce those beneficial results which they ought to contemplate. He thought, connected with this great measure of railways, there ought to be a system of emigration, if not carried on, at least largely assisted, Government.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that the persons employed upon railways ought to have the opportunity of emigrating gradually and he was decidedly an advocate for some gradual sys tem of emigration going on throughout the whole ofsur face the land. Upon these grounds he was decidedly of opinion- that instead of these railwa ys being int rus t e d to private companies, they ought to be taken up and constructed by Government at the public expanse...a( The marquis of LAI Hear, hear.) SDOWNE said he did not in tend to oppose th e hayreturn, nor did be apprehend that the motion would have given rise to any discussion. After what had fallen, however, from the Noble*Lord, who had just resumed to say a word or two. particular preroga tive the Noble Earl had alluded most constitutional prerogatives instance injudicious Crown, and one which it would attached the and unwise to abandon in any it bad not been interposed to stop this measure' t Majesty's whether it would be exercised by the Crownursee'eutliat depend upon the opinion entertained by her advisers as to the drgree of mischief the measure was likely to produce upon the public interest. He was surprised that this observation should have been made on a motion like this, anti especially one which had been made without notice. The Earl of WINCEIILSEA could not refrain from making a few observations, for no man felt more deeply the distress of his fellow -countrymen than ho did ; and while he gave all credit to her :Ala jesty's Government for their intentions, a nd while he fully appreciated the difficulties with which they had to contend, he still must say that the measures which they proposed to introduce would never prove of any permanent utility to the people of Ireland. Th population of that country had been doubled within the last twenty years, and it was perfectly clear that the land could never provide sufficient employment for the poor of that country, and they would be driven into some extensive measure of colonisation to relieve the country of its surplus population. He had always advocated some system of colonisation, yet if it were to be carried out to any effective extent, it would require an outlay of at least 4,000,0001. or 5,000,0001. per an num. This was not a greater sum than the plan pro posed by his Noble Friend in the other House, and he did think that if that plan were adopted, it would, by facilitating intercourse throughout the county, be productive of excellent results, and return a large advantage to this country for the outlay that was made to effect it. Yet, at the same time, he still believed that the Government would be driven into some great and comprehensive scheme for the perma nent improvement of Ireland. TRANSPORTATION. In reply to they Marquis of SALISBURY, Earl GREY stated that the papers on transportation would be laid on the table in the course of a few days. EDUCATION. The Marquis of LANSDO WNE, after laying some papers on the table, proceeded to state to their Lord• ships the nature of the minute which the Privy Coun cil had lately adopted with respect to education. He said he might have laid the minute on the table without offering any remarks with respect to it, as the altera tions which it proposed would be carried out without the intervention of either Houses of Parliament ; but he thought it right, as early in the Session as possible, to put their Lordships in possession of the views which her Majesty's Government entertained on the subject of the education of the people. He confessed it would have given great satisfaction to him if he had been enabled to state that the Government were prepared with a plan of public education for the people of this country, so large, so comprehensive as at once to put the population, with respect to education, in that condition in which it was in some parts of Europe, in which an uneducated child was an almost solitary exception, and in which it might be said, " that education was con sidered universally necessary." But he was bound to state that it had not appeared to her Majesty's Govern ment that they could practically effect a system of education upon a large and universal scale. It un doubtedly might have been attempted, but it could only have been attempted with serious, if not with over whelming, difficulties. It could they thought only be made comprehensive, or, at least, so comprehensive as to include in the same plan, and in the same schools, placed under the control of the Government, not only all conditions of the people, but of all religious denomi nations ; and the longer he had observed the progress of the question, the more convinced he had become of the difficulties which would have to be encountered in attempting a system'of education on a scale so enlarged, and with views so extensive. These difficulties were not new, and he appealed in corroboration of this to his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Brougham), who had been so honourably and so valuably connected with the progress of education, and stands connected,with the pro motion of a general system of education, such as her Ma jesty's Government would consider proper to be sup ported. It might 'ee said that that which individuals had tailed to do the Government might effect. This was not so in the case of education, as all the efforts of Government would be met by feelings of mistrust and jealousy among two classes of the people, one of whom, consisting of perhaps the most pious and conscientious persons, objected to education being carried on at all in a mixed school ; the other class being that not unim portant one which deprecated entirely all interference of the state in matters of education. When he stated that these were two powerful classes of objectors, he did not mean to say that their opinions were at all universal. It could not, however, be supposed that there were not many learned and religious persons who considered that although the dangerous path to learning should not be trod without the light of religious instruction to guide them, still he thought that it was quite possible to educate under the same roof children of different denominations, and holding various religious opinions. The Government had there fore come to the conclusion that it was not expedient to introduce any general or extended measure of educa tion. It did, however, appear to the Government, that it was necessary to give, under various heads, some assist ance towards the establishing and extension of education beyond that which had hitherto been set apart for that purpose, and also to stimu late efforts of those individuals and societies under whose patronage the schools had already been supported. Their Lordships would be glad to know what had been the operation of the existing Bill. He was glad to say that there had been a progressive increase in the grants that had been made between the )ears 1833 and 1846. The grants during that period amounted to 490,0001, and this sum had secured education annually for 700,000 children. All the schools to which grants were made had been inspected, and he was glad to say that a num ber of schools who did not require grants had petitioned the Council to have inspectors sent down to examine into the condition of their institutions. In addition to those included in the grants he bad mentioned, there were a number of diocesan and normal schools that had received assistance. We now come to the sugges tions which, though not of great importance, yet they sit in the right direction. The first was, that the inspection be more frt:quent, and that the establishment should be sufficient for inspection once a year. To insure this, the addition of three or four inspectors was made. The next subject to which he would invite the attention of their Lordships was the reports from the schools. Most of these reports showed one great difficulty, and that was not only a de ficiency of masters competent to their duties, but also of assistants fit for their duties. It was, therefore, proposed that in all good schools the masters should be allowed to t apprentices from among the best boys, and for eac apprentice the master should have an allowance granted the guardians, inspectors, and visitors, having the righ of recommending those boys who were most fi t for the duty, and this a regular supply of school masters instructed and trained for th-ir position. It was proposed, beyond this, that from the apprentices so trained for the purpose of adding to the general stock of schoolmasters, a certain number should be selected for the purpose of entitling that number, having con ducted themselves well, and usefully contributed to carry on the discipline of the school—he said a certain num ber would be selected for the purpose of having exhibi tions for normal schools, thus constituting another element in thir progress towards the station of school masters. But not only was it their intention to grant these exhibitions, but, as there would be probably a certain number of persons intended for the office of schoolmasters that might not be after all, although they might have con ducted themselves properly, although they might have taken pains to avail themselves of the ad vantages offered them, although they might have bene fited to a certain extent, still after all this training, they might not be found fitted fur the office of schoolmasters, and it was, therefore, proposed that an arrangement should be made in which he had the satisfaction of stating that the Noble Lord at the head of the Treasury, and his Hight Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, had expressed their entire concurrence. An arrangement had b: en made by which a certain number of these apprentices, not becoming school masters, should be entitled to employment in the revenue departments of the state. This would con stitute a double encouragement for these young men, by which a greater number might be qualified to attain the office of a schoolmaster ; and if found unfitted for that office, still Government would not lose the benefit of their services in another of its departments. There would be of course for the purpose of carrying out this system, a periodical examination of the pupils, and this, also, would have the effect of advancing them in their progress towards that office. He now came to another subject which he considered must be materially altered to affect the general course of education.—(Hear.) There was no class of men in this country who had more chains upon the gratitude of the country, or who were better entitled to the attention and favour of the Govern ment than the schoolmasters of England. There was no class of men more unlikely to reap, in a worldly sense, the reward of their toils and exertions. Many of those who had considerable influence over the character and interests of the children, saw them ad vancing to prosperity while they were themselves chained down to their laborious exertions in a state of hopelessness and without requital, and, in many in stances, dispirited by their want of MOMS ; their feel ings chilled by want, and checked by penury. It was, therefore, proposed that a small provision should be made for the schoolmasters in their old ago ; and that any person who co u ld s h ow t h at t h ey had for fifteen years conducted, in an unexceptionable manner, a public school should be entitled to the provision. —(Heer, hear.) This provision would be made upon the reports of the inspectors made to the Treasury at the period of their visitation. It was proposed, in connexion with these schools to es tablish places of industry, or workshops, so that children during their leisure hours might receive instructions in some useful craft, and the gentlemen in the neighbour hood would be stimulated to give their assistance and co-operation to those schools ; but it would also tend to obviate what had always been felt as a great evil, namely, that of parents withdrawing their children from the school, from what they considered uselesst earning, with a view of putting them to something which they thought would be more useful to their families. He trusted, however, that the introduction of this system would effect a great change. Some of these schools are indeed already established, and are very successful at Ethe present moment. He was happy to say that he had found a very general co-Aeration and desire for improvement among all the ministers of religion, but he should not be doing his duty if ho did not declare among all denominations he had received the most able assistance from the clergy of the Church of England. Not a day passed withOiit receiving letters in struction for complaining of the want of such for the children of their parishes, and he was happy to say, that the exertions they had made had been emi nently successful in alleviating the evil. An excellent account of the benefit which was wrought by this diffu sion of education was given in the pamphlet of a clergy man named Dawes, who had succeeded in establishing school in his parish, and had so completely altered the character of the place, that whereas it had been distin guished for vice and immorality ten years before it was how equally eminent for the reduction of crime, and the im provement of th e w h o l e of i ts i nhabitants, lie had also succeeded by the success of his schools, that he had completely broken down prejudice, and the feeling of ay class had b een done away with, the farmers sent their child ren to the same schools as those w hi c h th e i r labourers attended. Anditwasen a fact, that farmers from distant p arts sent their hchildren to board in t h e might have village, in order that they benefit o f at tending on Mr. D awes a sel ools. e. T . l l l ' F. was great . triumph. This was at Ki ng ' s Salford, 1 This statement he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) made, because it WAS a striking pro o f o f tho bonotits acf education. As another instance of the benefit of these schools—in one of these schools 15S children had been, out of their little savings—out of the presents of their parents, been enabled to purchase 151. worth of books. —(Hear, hear.) He anticipated great advantage from the establishing of these industrial schools,: and especially from their connexionwith the workhouses, for it was also intended to associate them with the work houses, and to establish libraries in them. Great com plaint had been made of the want of books, and of the difficulty of obtaining cheap sets, and it was, therefore, intended, out of the grants of last session, to give sets of books to these schools. He was quite aware that this scheme fell far short of the necessity of the case, and of providing a general instruction for the whole of the peo ple, but yet it was a great step, and he trusted it would prove effectual in at least approaching to a remedy of the evil. From his own experience, he fully anticipated that every assistance would be rendered by the ministers of religion, but he must repeat that he should not be doing his duty in speaking of the zeal of those gentle men, if he did not say that, of all denominations, the clergy were pre-eminent, short as it was, he believed the scheme would prove beneficial to the country. Lord BROUGHAM was sure nothing could be better than this system which ho had just proposed of coming to Parliament for the money to carry out some plan of education. It was evident they had no sufficient plan. He lamented as much as his Noble Friend that they found themselves just as far as ever from having a national, a public, or general system. That was no fault of theirs or any other Government, but it arose from some evil in the state of society, which while it lasted would baffle all attempts to obtain universal edu cation. He was no friend to compulsory education. People who generally complained of the want of educa tion, wished to know why they did not adopt the system of Prussia. Did they know there the system of education was almost a military system? Did they know that if they took a recipe from a physician in this country, he could not, as happened to a friend of his, get it made up when they applied to a druggist, without going through the hands of a physician regularly educated there? Everything there was compulsory. But that sort of thing would not do here, although it was all very well in Prussia, where the people were too ignorant to feel the evil. An Eng lishman was not to be forced, for the more you at tempted to compel him, the farther he would recede. Let them, however, provide cheap schools, and they would stimulate private beneficence, and the people would be encouraged to send their children to the schools, and then by degrees, but only by degrees, would they lead to general education. Let them give a portion of the money necessary for these schools, and they would bring the sympathies and the co-operation of the people into play. The Board of Education had adopted this plan with a view not to supersede, but to aid private exertion, and nearly 500,000/. had been advanced very advantageously since 1832 for that purpose. Education was the best aid of religion and the best guardian of morality. All his own experience, and all the experience of the criminal law which he or other judges concurred in, the opinion was that punishment was no preventive of crime compared with shame. But compel the criminal to refund the thing he has stolen within forty-eight hours, and he would never again commit the same offence. No man committed a crime without an object, and that generally was to avoid shame. The forger, unless he attempted to run away, committed forgery in the hope of avoiding the shame of bankruptcy. That was the sort of view taken of the subject, and, in very few cases, and in a very small degree, punishment was not heeded. What, then, was the remedy? Why, prevention. The crimi nals came in almost all cases from an inferior class of society. Their Lordships were not members of that class.—(Hear.) It was not persons in their rank who helped to swell the list of criminals. The proper remedy for this evil was to educate the youth of the country at a very early age, and then to instil into their minds such feelings, as in their Lordships and the higher classes, prevented the outbreak of such evil passions. Their Lordships might depend upon it that a wide spread and general infant education would do more to prevent crime than all the criminal laws, executions, transportations, and penitentiaries. These were his reasons why a ge neral and well defined system of infant education should be brought forward and supported by the Government. The Church and Dissenting communities were most zea lously bent upon improving the education of the masses. It would be ungrateful for him not to notice their exertions. But between the Church and the Dissenters, however, there was a feeling of controversy which marred their united exertions, the sole object of each party seemed to be victory, and both of the parties threw impediments in the way of an extended scheme of education, which were all founded upon controversial opinions and dogmas. It was his opinion that a system of super vision could not be maintained over the Dissenters, because they were divided into so many sections—the Church of England was one, and could therefore be more easily cultivated by the regulating body, and he was therefore of opinion, however ho might have op posed it before, that it would be much the best way to bring forward a general scheme of education under the control of the Church. Such a system should be at once introduced, and if the Dissenters did not like to take the benefit of the measure, they must Dave it alone ; but he was quite sure that all the better class of Dissenters would soon adopt the measure, and thereby incalculable advantages would result to the State. He thought it would be also advisable to estab lish central normal schools in various parts of England, for the purpose of educating and preparing a class of schoolmasters and teachers. In the schools established he thought, too, that it would be a good thing if the Government were to adopt the system of taking quarter pence from the children. The parents were much more likely, when they paid something for their children's education, to see that they attended the school regularly. With respect to the proposed plan for giving pensions to the schoolmasters, he thought that the period named, fifteen years, was too short a period to entitle them to a pension. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—That term was to the minimum period. Lord BROUG lIAM—In that ease he would not have so much objection. He also thought that an improved system of education was highly desirable. He wished in conclusion to impress upon their Lordships the neces sity for establishing upon a large scale, infant schools fir the education of the children of the poor. The Bishop of LONDON said he should treepass very shortly on their Lordship's time after what had been said by several Noble Lords, but the subject was one which he could not allow to pass without some ob servations. He wished, in the first place, to express the satisfaction with which be had heard the clear and candid statement of the Noble Marquis. He thought the steps which the Government proposed to take were exceedingly wise and judicious. The important features of the plan were inspection and encouragement by pecu niary grants and pensions to those engaged in normal or training schools. lie considered that no system, however wisely contrived, unless properly and vigilantly superintended —not a superintendence induced by jealous or private curiosity, but a superintendence by real friends, who were anxious to have the funds voted by the Government, or given by private and public beneficence, devoted to the purposes for which they were intended, and not wasted and thrown away, was the only superintendence that could really promote a good and efficient system of education. From the first introduction of education, aided by grants from the Government, he had pressed' upon the clergy the great advantage which they would derive by calling in the inspectors, and the preju dice formerly entertained with respect to them had de parted, and the assistance of the inspectors was found most beneficial. He thought it right to state that the inspectors had discharged their duty with courage in the most unobjectionable manner, and with the utmost con sideration and regard for the feelings of the clergy— and so long as they continued to follow that line of conduct, so long would they meet with the utmost facilities during their periodical visits. Then normal schools had not so much to contend against the want of funds as the want of efficient means to work them. — (Hear.) Such as the schoolmaster was, such would be the school. Therefore, he was satisfied that her Majes ty's Government could not act more wisely than in pro moting the extension of normal schools, and by training up schoolmasters in the way mentioned, would induce them to emulate each other, and to fit themselves to perform a creditable part in the exhibition which took place from time to time. He could not help suggesting to the Noble and Learned Lord the expediency of his paying a visit to some of the best conducted normal schools in which he would find that many of the suggestions he had made were in actual operation.—(Hear, hear.) For instance, lineal drawing had not only been practised for some time in the National, but in the Normal schools also.—(Cheers.) Then the Noble and Learned Lord had suggested the establishment of such schools in different parts of the kingdom, but at that time there were several in exist ence; there was one in Chester, one in York, Durham, Salisbury, and Exeter; so that that great want of which he had spoken had been partially supplied. He also suggested the expediency of making the children pay, what he called, " quarterly pence." Now, there was scarce a National school, especially in London, where " weekly pence" was not paid. the payment quarterly was objectionable. In fact, if the payments were not more frequent, there was a great probahility that none would be made. In some cases a great portion of the expense of the schools was paid in this way. He only mentioned these things in order to show the Noble Lord the great improvements that had been made during the last few years in those schools. In the school at Chester to which he (the Right Rev. Prelate) had alluded, there were several pupils who when the proper time came, would pass their examina tions, and evince perhaps as much knowledge of morals and philosophy as those in the schools of modern Athens, for whose institutions the Noble and Learned Lord bad so much respect.—(llear, hear.) There was one part of the statement of the Noble Mar quis on which he should reserve his opinion until he had obtained further information—he meant the workhouse schools, the importance of which could not be over rated; and it should not be forgotten that it was ad• visable that those schools should be assimilated to the national schools so far as the mode of instruction was concerned. He had visited some of these workhouse schools. He had visited one in his own parish (Ful ham), and he was sure, another in which the children were more happy, more cleanly, or more sensibly amused, did not exist —(Hear, hear.) In looking at the children, he could not help contrasting their condition with what it would have been, if they had been under the roofs of their parents. He had, as his Noble Friend knew, taken a lively interest in the esta blishment of infant schools ; he had been instrumental in establishing the first infant school at Chester. lie was aware, owing to the tender ages of the children, that nothing of a controversial nature could be in troduced ; but as they were seminaries, or nurseries to the training schools, religious instruction ought to be imparted at the earliest period in the large towns — (Hear, hear)—especially as owing to the frequency with which the children are taken from the schools, for the purpose of being svt to work, they were deprived of the benefit of religious training. That instruction ought to be imparted even if there was no chance of fi nishing it. He earnestly hoped that no disparagement would be thrown on the national religion in carrying out the improvements and extensions which the Privy Council had adopted, for which he begged to thank them most sincerely. The Bishop St. ASAPII had no objection to the se • lection of teachers from the lowest ranks of the people; but he considered that a great evil would be in flicted on the country if they were all taken from those ranks. The majority of the schoolmasters and school mistresses in England were taken from the ranks of lit tle shopkeepers or small farmers, who were but a step above the labouring classes. Out of twenty he found that only two had been in the national schools. He considered that the teachers ought to be selected from the middle classes. Such a class might be selected from the old-fashioned grammar schools. The Earl of WINCHILSEA ccnsidered that no sys tem would be efficient except it was based on the prin ciples of the Established reli gion of the country, and eCmight save the ex tors. Many of the under the control of the c ler gy , who, if they zealously t ppd people no v p o s ele t e d wo f t e h r e e t themselves s v e i l nG v g e o s ivne t : t o an state t h ae e tne t spete souf infidelity n and heatheni sm , j and it was, therefore, the duty of the Government to do all in their power to promote their spiritual welfare. He approved of the plan submitted to their Lordships by the Noble Marquis. The ARCHBISHOP of CANTERBURY said his views on the subject had been so well expressed by the Right Reverend Prelate, who had just addressed their Lordships, that he thought it unnecessary for him to trespass on their time, beyond sincerely expressing his thanks to the President of the Privy Council, for the attention which he had paid to the subject of education, and for bringing the plan he had before the House. Several reports were then received and brought up, and forwarded a stage ; and their Lordships adjourned at a Quarter -past Eight o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 5. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. NEW MEMBERS. Earl GROSVENOR and Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR took the oaths and their seats—the former for Chester, in the place of his uncle, and the latter for Middlesex, in the place of Mr. Byng, deceased, SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time, and or dered to be committed: — Bristol and South Wales Junction Railway and Aust Ferry. Direct London and Portsmouth and London, Brighton, and South Coast Railways Amalgamation. Doddington Rectory Division. Glasgow, Airdrie, and Monklands Junction Railway (Cowlairs, Carmyle, Central Junction, and Coplaw . __ hill Branches, and Montrose-street Terminus). Glasgow, Airdrie, and Monklands Junction Railway (Cowlairs Branch). Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway, and Ayrshire and Bridge of Weir Railway (No. 3). Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle Railway, and Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway (No. 2). Kingston-upon-Thames Small Tenements. Liverpool, Manchester, and Newcastle-upon-Tyne Junc tion Railway. London and North-Western Railway (Purchase of the Earl of Ellesmere's interest in the Manchester South Junction and Altrineham Railway). Liskeard and Launceston Branch Railway. Lynn and Ely Railway (Extension to Spalding and Ho'beach). Lynn and Ely Railway (Extension to Bury St. Edmund's). Llynvi Iron Company. Manchester and Lincoln Union Railway Deviation. Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railways (Louth and Ilorncastle and East Lincolnshire Junction Branches). Manchester Markets. Norfolk Railway (from Thetford to the Lowestoft Rail way near Reedham, with a Branch to Hales worth). North-Western Railway (Diversions at 6kipton, Caster- ton, and Sedbergh). - Preston and Wyre Railway. Reading, Guildford, and Reigate Railway. Wharf tale Railway (Skipton and Cayley Hall Deria. tions). Wear Valley, Bishop Auckland, and Weardale, Wear dale Extension, and Wear and Dcrwent Railways, and Shildon Tunnel Amalgamation. CAMBRIDGE AND THETFORD RAILWAY. This Bill was read a first time. LONDON INIPROVEMENTS BILL. This Bill was brought up, and read a first time. LONDON WATERWORKS. This Bill was also read a first time. OXFORD-STREET IMPROVEMENTS. This Bill was also read a first time. STANDING ORDERS. _ _ It was reported from the Committee of Standing Orders, that in the cases of the Bristol and Yeovil Rail way, and the Glasgow and Tregarthan Railway, the standing orders ought not to bo dispensed with. PUNISHMENT OF DEATH. Mr. BROTHER TON presented a petition from certain inhabitants of the city of London against the punishment of death. POOR REMOVAL ACT. Mr. W. 0. STANLEY presented petitions against the Poor Removal Bill. BREAD. Mr. JOHN O'BRIEN presented petitions from the inhabitants of Limerick, and also from the corporation of that place, praying that the bakers might be com• polled to sell bread by weight. TEN HOURS' BILL. Mr. FERRAND presented several petitions from places in the manufacturing districts in favour of a ten hours' Bill. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Mr. ETWALL presented a petition from Stockford in Hants, against the law of settlement, and stating that their rates had been largely increased by it. LIGHT-HOUSES AND BUOYS. CaptainPECHELL presented a petition, numerously signed, from the shipowners of Sunderland, praying that the cost of lighthouses and buoys should be de frayed out of the Consolidated Fund. POOR BLIND. Lord JOHN MANNERS presented a petition which stated that the number of blind persons in the several asylums of the country was upwards of nineteen thousand, while there was only provision for the educa tion and religious instruction of two thousand. REDUCTION OF THE DUTIES ON SPIRITS. The NOBLE LORD also presented a petition from several places in Scotland against the proposed reduction on rum and other foreign spirits. The petitioners stated that this reduction would occasion a loss of 2,000,000/ to the country. TEN HOURS' BILL. Mr. SPOONER presented a petition from Bolton in favour of this Bill. SECURITY OF TENURE. Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented a petition from the guardians of Broadhurst (as we understood), setting forth that insecurity of tenure, and the want of a law compelling compenaation for the outlay made by tenants wouldon would be thereby gi v e bnethemselves support in improving the s oil, were the great causes of the pre sent distress in - Ire land, and that if the lan ds of that country were proper l y cultivated remunerative employ ment enabled the to wholepeople, and that during similar cala mities to the p resent w ithout aid from the Governme nt, and p r y in g the House to pass a they law to promote security of tenure. MALT DUTY. Mr. WODETIOUSE presented a petition from Nor folk, praying for the repeal of the malt duties. REDUCING THE DUTIES ON SPIRITS, Mr. HUME presented a petition from distillers in Forfarshire, praying that the proposed redaction of the duties on spirits might not be carried out. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Mr. PALMER presented a petition from the board of guardians of the Abingdon Union, complaining that the law of settlement passed last session imposed great burdens on the towns, and praying that it might be amended ; that the support of the poor might be made a national charge, and that all kinds of property might be equally rated. ENCLOSING COMMONS. Mr. AGLIONBY gave notice that, on Thursday next, he should move for leave to introduce a Bill—notice o' which he gave last session—to facilitate the enclosure o commons. LOANS TO IRELAND. On the motion of Mr. BROWN the following returns were ordered:—The account current of moneys which have passed between Great Britain and Ireland since the union. Loans contracted by the Irish Govern ment, and the progress of the Irish national debt, esou source s fromits commencement down to 1801 (the union). Subsequent loans contracted by the Iris h Exche q uer until it was abolished, in 1817. How the debts con tracted before and a ft e r the union were dispos ed of, and th sB4frl to omwthhiechstthheofj interestwasanua r ylB46, inclusive. paid. The re venue and expenditure of Ireland, from the sth of Januaryhe taxes i m p ose d i n G rea t B r it a in and the taxes im - T po;ied in Ireland, and the amount of each tax during the last ten years. WINDOW DUTY. Captain PECHELL moved for a return of the amount of window duty assessed for the year 1845 for the twelve towns paying the largest amount, with the pet amount of duty received for th e same on the sth day of April 1846. —Agreed to. --- - POOR-LAW COMMISSIONERS . Captain PECHELL also moved, on behalf of the Hon. Member for Weymouth, for copies of all corre spondence which had taken place between the Poor law Commissioners and the board of guardians for Wey mouth.—Agreed to. DETENTION OF CORN. Dr. BOWRING wished to call the attention of Lord Palmerston to the detention of corn and maize in the port of Ancona, bought for English account, and in. tended to be shipped for this country, and to inquire ivb at measures had been taken in consequence. Lord PALMERSTON stated that several represents. tions had been made to him on the subject, and he had issued instructions to the Consul upon the subject. The detention of the grain complained of did not arise from any act of His Holiness the Pope, as had been stated, bu from the local authorities of the port of Ancona. WRECK OF THE HIGIIFLYER. Dr. BOWRING wished to know whether the Govern m exit had taken any steps in order to ascertain the truth of a rumour which had spread as to the capture ansi destruction by the natives of four persons who were sup:dosed to have been cast ashore on the coast of Abyssinia? lord PALMERSTON said, that he had caused in qtyiies to be made upon the subject, and the answer wi ii ch he had received was, that after the most minute in restigation into the circumstances, it was the opinion of the persons employed to make the inquiries, that the Ntfi CoattilliDg the four persons had been overtaken by FEBRUARY G , 1847. a storm and lost ; and that they were not captured or murdei •ed by the inhabitants. PENINSULAR MEDALS. Sir ANDREW LEITH HAY wished to put a ques tion to the Secretary at War as to the steps which had been taken to carry into effect her Majesty's gracious intent ion of granting medals to the officers of the Penin sular• army. • Mr. FOX MAULE said, that in carrying out the gracious commands of her Majesty the details of the measure had been attended with considerable diffi culty. He could assure the honourable Member, and the House, who had expressed so strong a feeling on the subject at the close of the last s.essiov, that no unnecessary delay should take place in conferring on those gallant officers the rewards which her Majesty had been graciously pleased to appoint. RUSSIAN DUTIES ON HERRINGS. Sir ANDREW LEITH _HAY wished to put a ques tion to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs relating; to the ditties levied in Russia and other countries on her rings exported from Great Britain ; he wished to know whether it was the intention of that Government to lower the rate of duties levied upon that article of export? Lord PALMERSTON said that each country regu lated its own tariff according to its own interests, real or supposed, and it was a question in which other Govern ments ceuld not interfere. He regretted, therefore, that he was not able at present to give any satisfactory answer to the question of the Hon. Member. prepared to take meesures this session to regulate the public charities. Sir GEORGE GREY-.stated that the qiiestion was already under the consideration of the Lord Chancellor. DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) ADVANCES BILL. On the order of the day for bringing up the report on this Bill being read. Lord CLEMENTS wished to call the attention of her Majesty's Government to the Irish charities which were at present lying dormant. He would name a few of these charities. There was the Irish Peasantry So ciety and the British and Irish Ladies' Society, both of which had received subscriptions to a very large amount. The British and irisNLadies' Society had received the sum of 12,300/. from the subscriptions of 1822, when the last famine visited Ireland, There was another society which had received sub scriptions to a similar amount. There was also a handsome subscription collected in the :city of Dublin by a society, which afterwards dissolved itself, leaving a large balance in the Bank of Ireland. Now, these funds could not be touched, unless by an Act of Parliament, and when they were called upon for ad vances to meet the destitution which prevailed in Ire land, he wished her Majesty's Government to look after the funds. One society, called the Repro ductive Society, had a large burn to their account. He would not at present call the attention of the House to the Destitute Persons' Bill, but he would say, that there were divers provisions in that Bill which would render it ineffectual, and still more difficult of management Outlaw present system of public works. He had asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer last night what Govern ment intended to do to provide employment, arid was informed that it was proposed to do so by the Labour Employment (Ireland) Bill. He did not know whether Government was aware of whet would be required to carry out that measure. There were 2,050 electoral divisions in Ireland. They would also require a staff for each of these electoral divisions. which would be under the control of a central committee, of which the Lord Lieutenant was the head. He thought that was impracticable, and he would beg of her Majesty's Go vernment to reconsider that Bill. He gave the Govern ment full credit for sincerity, but he did not think this measure practicable. It would be necessary to form new districts throughout the land, and this would require some persons of corsiderable local information. He did not see that it. would be possible for the Lord Lieutenant, with the machinery of the present Bill, to come to a just decision. He had no objection to th e names of Colonel Jones, and Mr. Redington, and Colonel M'Gregor being introduced as members of the board, but it would be impossible fur them (were they giving every attention to the measure, and he had no doubt they would do so as far as iu them lay) to superintend efficiently the working of an extensive measure of this kind. In answer to a question from Mr. WILLIAMS, in re ference to the way the funds would be advanced, a The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he could only repeat what he had stated before. The ad vances would be made from the Consolidated Fund , 300,0001. was proposed now, and when more was re quired, he would come down to the House, and ask them for a vote. The money would be voted from time to time, us it was required-. The-report was then brought up and received. DESTITUTE RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. The order of the day for going into Committee upon the Destitute Relief (Ireland) Bill was then read. On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, Mr. MUTT rose and said that he was anxious to say a few words on the subject of the distress in Ireland. He entirely concurred with his Honourable Friend in lamenting that the Government should have adverted to the subject of emigration in somewhat disparaging terms, lle lamented it the more, as he looked ueon it as one—if not the only means— by which the country could be rescued from the terrible calamities which were impending over them—a—(lean) There were in Ireland upwards of 1,500,000 heads of families, who maintained themselves on the verge of starvation, their wages varying from 2s. to 2s. ed. per week, and a small portion of potatoes, land, whilst, in order to give them the coarsest and cheapest bread, it was necessary that they should have from 7s. to Bs. per week. Seven shillings were scarcely sufficient, and yet the whole rental of Ireland, which was barely ten millions, was barely enough to support them upon the grossest description of food. Even sup posing that every source of income was sunk, it e oald not give more than seven shillings per week to each of the labouring population of Ireland. The fact was, that it was utterly impossible for Ireland to meet the demand of its population, frdna the destruc tion of thepotetoe crop. Let them say what they might, or do what they might, a poor-law giving a right to out-door relief could never be carried into effect in Ire land—and for this reason, that the gross revenue from the soil would be utterly insufficient for the destitution which it would be called upon to relieve. The acreable production of England was four times as great as the acreable production of Ireland. Why then, he would ask, did this disparity exist? The soil of Ireland was met less fertile than the:soil of England, perhaps it was more so. It could not, therefore, be attributable to that cause. The riasan he thought must be the indifferent system of agriculture which existed in Ireland, and until an improvement took place in this respect, he was afrAd that this disparity would still exist. The minute subdivision of the land in Ireland also presented insuperable obstacles 'to improvement. He found, by a report laid on the table of the House, that the whole extent of Ireland was cut up into small holdings of from one rood to ten acres. Now, he would ask what sub soiling could take place, what drainage could be made, or %%hat rotation of crops could be put down under such a system ? When the land was thus cut up into those miserable shreds and patches, it was impossible to employ profit ably either capital or labour. They found that the farmers in England were more consolidated fur carrying out improvements; but, in Ireland, the peasant culti vated his ground by himself and unaided. It required fhur labourers mere, in Ireland, to raise the seine pro. duce that would be raised by one labourer in England. His plan was that there should be increased production of the soil, which could be done only by more skilful cultivation, which necessarily required that there should be some consolidation of the miserable holdings in Ire land. He knew there were many opposed to such a scheme, nor, he confessed, did he wish to see such ex tensive farms in Ireland as there were in this country. He would wish the farms there to be of the size of whas would be called moderate farms in this country. But this plan would require the removal of cotters. Govern ment proposed two scheMes—the first to reclaim the waste lands, the next to promote colonisation. The first, certainly, would be beneficial. Colonisation, carried on to a sufficient extent, would, by diminishing the demand for food at home, which certainly would change favour ably some of the present relations between the land and the occupier. There existed in the British colonies a considerable demand fir labour; and ho could sa y , from his own knorN l e d ge , th a t i n t h e co l ony of South Aus tralia the ckapind for labour was at this moment intens: - .. Ile could assure the House that in the mining districts there existed a demend for at least .5,000 heads of families and those dependent on them; in addition, they had a large territory in Polynesia, and he had ne doubt that an equal lumber of labourers would be required there, as the occupants of that land were equally in want of assistance. He would not say what quantity of emigrants might he sent to Canada, and the regulations from the Colonial office; but of this fact he was quite aware, that there existed, both at home and abroad, im mense means of providing food for generations yet to come. Now then he came to the cost, and he was afraid that this was a question which they would be compelled to scrutinise very closely, what would be the cost then, of an extensive system of home and foreign colonisation to such an extent as would give a sensible lift to Ire land? The cost, he believed, to the Imperial Treasury would be just nothing at all. He was sure that the whole outlay would be repaid by the reclamation of waste lauds, as well as from other sources. lie had been one of the commissioners appointed by the Crown to manage the colonisation of South Australia, in which he was connected with a most worthy and phi losophic gentleman, Colonel Torrens. They had been the means of partly laying the foundation of an impor tant and prosperous colony. In order to establish this colony, they bad carried out 15,000 persons, and in the course of a short time they had converted a forest and a wilderness into the abode of an industrious and thriving population.—(Hear, hear.) They had been able not only to meet all their expenses, but had realised 85,0001. The Government at the time granted 80,0001. for the security of the colonial revenue. This sum had been since adopted by the Colonial Govern ment, and had been since liquidated by the revenue of the colony. With such facts before the House, why should not the same successful experiment be repeated elsewhere ?—(Hear, hear.) In considering the question of relieving the people, the House and the Government should endeavour to carry out a systematic scheme of colonisation on the principle which had been found so successful in South Australia.—(Hear, hear.) That unless we can get the means of feeding the popula tion of Ireland from the,soil, Ireland must continue to be supported out of the purse of England and Scotland. by means of the importation of corn. Ho believed the people of this country to be as liberal and as generous as any other people under the sun ; but he knew full well that there were limits to their generosity, and he was convinced that if the Government of this country should find it necessary to apply again to Parliament for anothsr grant they would find them in a state of alarm and terror. He did, therefore, entreat her Majesty's Government seriously to consider the question of emi gration, which he considered had been too lightly weighed. He believed it to be the only means by which, in the dreadful and unparalleled distress, they would be enabled to rescue the property of Great Britain and Ire land from confication, and the people from the horrors of famine. Sir GEORGE GREY desired to bring back the House to the original question under discussion, which was with refer ence to a Bill framed in such a way as the Government had thought right to meet the existing, the pressing, the daily dis tress which was now pervading the country. He hoped, there fore, the House would be allowed to go on with the considera tion of the Bill. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN (who was very indistinctly heard) wished to press upon the House a proposition, for which no Act of Parliament was necessary—for the Poor-law Com missioners possessed already full powers to carry it into effect, and would do so, if they received proper instructions. He pro posed to make a general electoral division of the town lands, consulting not only the population and the extent of the terri tory, but also the space which each individual pro prietor should have on the property of such town land. He would not go into the whole aspect or political character of centralisation, but if there was a country less fitted than an other for centralisation, it was Ireland. He now called upon the House to give him its attention while he arraigned the two great classes of Ireland against each other. They were called upon to vote away millions for the relief of the distress in that country. He would not say whether that was right or whe ther it was wrong, but the ever-recurring, never-ending ques tion was, what where they to do with the landlord, of Ireland? There were continual accounts of a most different description brought forward in that House. On one hand they were met by cases of the greatest cruelty and selfishness, and on the other by instances of the greatest self-denial, and the most general philanthropy. The question they had to consider, after they had passed these laws, and voted them millions, was what they were to do with the Irish landlords. He would have bad some difficulty in answering this question, if he did not know, from his own knowledge, that the Irish landlords were divided into two classes. There were some of them who still clung to the most disgraceful prac tice of their class. There were others of them who looked for ward to a better state of things, and who were ready to do all in their power to accomplish such an object. That House was called upon to act with strict impartiality, and not to interfere mor e th an was actually necessary; but they were called upon to show, by the opinions they expressed, as to those who pushed the rights of property to the extremest limits, and those who discharged their duties. There could be no just objection to his plan, it would be for the benefit of Ireland, and yet the Irish party were not in their places. He had always found that those who ought to mist them when a measure of this kind was prepared were the last to do so.—(Hear, hear.) Now it was proposed to levy an absentee-tax upon Ireland. Whatever might be the merits of that tax, he must be allowed to say that at present it was ill-timed. A measure wee before them for facilitating the, transference of incumbered es t a t es , an d t h ey were d o i n g all they could to induce English capitalists to invest their money in Irish land, and yet what were the inducements held out by the Irish party. Why, said they, We will do everything. to facilitate the transfer of the land, and we most heartily wish you success with it when you get it, but then you must be an exile to your own land or pay an absentee-tax." What a foolish policy was this? Why not let the English capitalist invest hie money first, and then come down upon him with the absentee-tax. Now, what he wanted the House to do was to draw a distinction between the landlord who did his duty, and the landlord who did not--to pass such a law that all the town lands should share in due and proper proportions the burden of maintaining the poor. What had been the whole tenor of the debates this session. No difference had been made between free-trader and protectionist, or 'Whig and Tory. The whole course had turned upon one question bearing upon the rights and duties of town lands, and in settling that question he maintained that it was unfair to press heavily upon the landlord, who did all in his power to improve his estate, without calling upon the landlord who neglected his estate to bear .an equal burden.—(Hear, hear.) Let them take as an illustration of his position England and Ireland, and consider them as two large towns. England was prosperous; and flourishing—lreland was unhappy and destitute; and it was unfair of Ireland, the English people said, to vest them with the consequences of the misdeed of Ireland. It was unfair, they said, to call upon them to relieve the sufferings of Ireland because in times gone by she had neglected to improve her con dition, and allowed opportunities for becoming prosperous and happy too, to slip by her.— ( Hear, hear.) He was not there to say that these charges against Ireland were without foundation, nor had he ever attempted to deny that the landlords of Ire- Ireland had very much to answer for, but whether they had done their duty or had not, if they took England and Ireland separately, they must confess hat the whole force of the debates during the present session had resulted into a great townland question. The Right Hon. Gentleman had con stantly said to the landlords of Ireland, " Help yourselves." The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Taenworth impressed the same upon them, and not for the first time, the other night. But they had also said if we make you help yourselves we make you help your neighbours also. All be asked was, that they should separate the good from the bad landlords. There were many landlords in Ireland who wished to sympathise with the people, and to lend their best exertions to carrying out the most comprehensive measures of benefit. It was by strengthening the hands of the good land- - lords that they would be able to carry out and establish such beneficial laws.—( Hear.) It must be well known to any one acquainted with the Irish people that mere law of itself, as passed by that House, had little power on the people of Ireland. To remove them from that want of allegiance should be the duty of all who took upon themselves to direct the affairs of the country, whether in that House or acting in their own country as guardians. From his know ledge of Ireland, and his acquaintance with the . feel ings and charac'er of the people, and from the know. ledge he possessed of this country, he would repeat again that these laws could not operate as efficiently as the means he had devised. Moral influences, ancestral influences, and aristocratic influences, had more power over the Irish peep?) than any law passed by that country. Seting a motion of risi bility on the other side, he must explain that aristocratic in fluence in Ireland had nothing to do with rank. It was the influence of the landlord over his tenantry when he did his duty. All he stated was to show the necessity he contended fur of making a distinction between the good and the bad land lord. If they preserved the present system, you inflict on the good landlord the punishment due to the bad landlord. lie repeated that this distinction was warranted, for the existence of the different classes was known to all those familiar with Ireland. It was not, perhaps, known to that House the many acts of kindness which the recent circumstances of the country called forth between landlord and tenant. How many disture bailees had been crushed, how many unlawful characters had been reclaimed, how many evils had been soothed, in a word, how much of kindness, and how much of heartfelt gratitude. , —( Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances, he was sorry t° see on the part of Govern men t a d es i re, i nstea d of diminishing the area of territorial division to increase' it by the did' sions proposed. It was not his intention then to enter opan the discussion of the Labour Rate Act—(Hear, hear) —but it was admitted to be, pro tanto, a an lity. Now that Act was go i ng on still, at. another Act was coming i n , w hi c h was t h e reason w hy called the attention of the House to both Bills. The Govern ment said they were determined to proceed with the unLO rate instead of the elect ora l ra t e , th ey wou ld i n j ure retP7: than serve the country. He would oppose to the utmost,l; its every stage, with all the p er ti nac it y w hi c h th e f or ms of t h e House permitted, the extension of taxation—that, he WO not say dangerous, unjust, but fatal measure: he Mr. LABOUCHERE said he should n o t trespaca ont ee s attention of the House, now that it was go i ng i n to C f nintleman but considering the importance of w h a t t h e lion- -c observe had said, that it was due to the Hous e t o ma k e a few witt Cans before the Speaker left the Chair. The ques tion raise dby the Hon. Gentleman was not a new quest i on . I t h a d b een urged upon his (Mr. L a b ouc h ere ) attent i on b y those to w h o m he was bound to pay th e grea t est d e f erence and respect , namely, landed proprietors, magi a t ra t es , an d M em b ers of t h e Government ; but the mo r e h e h ear d, th e more necessary h e considered it to weigh carefully th e very i mportant pr i nc i p l e involved in this question, a n d th e more necessary i t was for Government to p r o cee d w ith caut i on i n del i ber-, • sting upon it. Still th e y f e lt th ey wou ld not b e doing their duty to the peopl e o f I re l an d, if t h ey did not con sider this question. The Hon. Gentleman had put forward this principle more clearly and strt rgly than it had ever yet been expressed. Its proposition was simply this—that to provide for the distresses of Ireland it was necessary to deal, not with committees, but with individuals.—(Hear, hear.) It was admitted by deputations which he had received, that the' proprietors were willing to contribute largely, and to cuter into the system of electoral districts, and thus to give employ ment to a considerable extent ; but they would do so upon the condition of being allowed to employ those to whom they gave labour on their own estates. There were, certainly, great objections to that ; they occurred to him then, and he urged them ; hut he would not now repeat them. What was the fact ? There were 2,050 electoral districts in Ireland, occupying from ten to fifteen thousand acres each, which certainly was an extent sufficient to induce co-operation for good. The question proposed to deal with private property—Hon. Gentlemen said, would yon: deprive the proprietors in Leland of all motives of taking care , of their own property, and providing for the distresses of their own poor. He did think it certainly wrung to make those divisions so large as to prevent their taking care of the poor on their estates. But then to restrict the principles so far as to say, that they should enforce upon them the duty of taking care of any section of poor, merely from the fact of their being resident in a certain district, this was not the principle of any poor-law in the world with which he was acquainted. It certainly was not a principle of the law of England. It belonged to no country , and was merely a remnant of serfdom and a principle of feudal ism. It was to him a great objection that it was a feudal principle, and such a principle as he considered to be wholly inapplicable to Ireland or to England in the year 1847.-- ( Clear, hear.) But even if the principle were adopted it would be found that it would be utterly impracticable to carry out the details. If they had 60,000 town lands to manage-- if they had separate machinery for each of these, or suppose they had only one-half or even one-fourth of those it would be utterly and absolutely impracticable to carry it into effect. , But he would not go into that, as he held that the arguments he had already stated were utterly unanswerable. He would take the case of a man possessed of large property, and he would suppose him to be called upon to support all the poor who might be located on his land, he asked, was not such a principle wholly inadmissible ? He held that it would be o discouragement to the improvement of property, and would produce in many cases, monstrous injustice. He must also say that the plan of the Hon. Gentleman was utterly imprac ticable in the case of towns. The principle of division into townlands would throw an intolerable burden on towns and large villages. When he came, therefore, to the conclusion which he did, he assured the Honourable Gentleman that it was not without great deliberation and examination of the subject—it was not without consulting the most intelligent people, who were able to form an opinion, and considering the huddled and crowded state of the population, as well as the general condi tion of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He held then, that the townland, as the unit of taxation, would work the must monstrous injustice, for while some proprietors would be en tirely exempted from burdens which of right belonged to them, others would be crushed by the weight of what they were not in justice entitled to bear.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. S. O'BRIEN observed that he never said that town' lands should be the unit of taxation. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that if they left the principle of electoral districts, the next lower division to which they mmt come, as the unit of taxation, w as t own l an d s: This principle, he asserted, was not applicable to a free people; but to a population in a state of serfdom. It was a feudal prin ciple, and one which he never could recognise or support.-- ( Hear, hear.) He thought the Hon. Gentleman had very much underrated the advantage of electoral districts over townlands in another point of view, namely, the advantage of co-operation and mutual support. The Honourable -Gen tleman himself might be in a condition to speak of this from his own experience, but he (Mr. Labouchere) could state thst it h a d b een pro ductive of the greatest good- The relief committees which had been established had been the means of bringing those tog ether wl.o never met before.-- ( Hear, hear.) The priest a nd the Protestant rector—the landlord, the tenant, and the cess-payer— men of different weeds, and of different politics, were brought to act together, to know one another, to appreciate one another, and to reci procate the advantages of mutual assistance.—(Hear, hear.) He saw tha!, during the last autumn, and he was of opinion that it had tended very much to the ad vantage of Ireland. He tholght, therefore, that there principle of working by communities, instead of by to wn -landet would in the present measure be much the preferable course; that it would be the most effective way to support Parliament • to assist the Government, and to carry out that measure which would require the aid of them all to realise the benefit which was intended by it. These advantages he believed would re sult from the division into electoral districts. He would not then go into the question, whether electoral districts or union% were preferable, bat he could assur e th e H o nourable Gentleman, that her Majesty's Government would a pproach the consideration of the subject with the greatest car e. - Th e question, however, was not whether they would make the electoral divisions larger, but whether they would make them smaller—whether they should proceed by e l ec t ora l d:stricu or by towniands . He had given his reasons why he eonsideren the former the preferable mode, and h e b e li eve d the grea test evil would result if it was not adopted. If any gentleman were again disposed to raise the question, he would have an oppor tunity of doing so on a future occasion ; hut he hoped that, in the meantime, the Bill would be allowed to proceed. After a few words in explan a ti on f rom Mr. STAF FO RD O'BRIEN, Mr. MORE O'FERR AL believed that the subject pas one which called for the most deliberate consideration from an y ce u- Government, and one on which English Members_ We i r_ r. P !lady fitted to give an opinion. His Hon. Friend which bouchere) appeared to him to confound two thin n is d to the pro posed to the Poor-rate Act of last session, a d to. the perfectly distinct —the division into electoral dgstricts as ap- L posed Poor-law. Ile (Mr. F. Manic) was QPP °Se 3 • they made i were top and his reason was, because . landlords of Ireland when the appthliecaticosnperuenierrea • TUE BLACK CAT. Mr. MUNTZ wished to know upon what authority, or upon what grounds, the schooner Black Cat was de tained in the river, and why all information upon the subject was refused to the owners by the Custom-house authorities. Lord PALMERS TON replied that the Black Cat was detained at the request of the*Portuguese Minister, ho represented that the Black Cat was laden with con siderable stores, to be used in hostilities on the coast of Spain. Mr. MUNTZ gave notice that, on Thursday week, he should bring the subject of the detention of the Black Cat under the attention of the House.—(Laughter.) In answer to a question from Mr. O'CoNNELL, Mr. LABOUCHERE replied that Dublin would not be excluded from the operation of the Destitute Persons (Ireland) Act. Mr. AGLIONBY wished to know if Government in tended to bring in any measure this session to correct the evils attendant upoa the collection of the Merchant Seaman's Fund. Mr. WARD replied that it bad been determined to institute a further inquiry into the subject, and a com mission would be appointed for that purpose. Upon the result of that commission a measure would be founded for remedying such evils as might be found to exist. NAVIGATION LAWS. Mr. RICARDO wished to know whether refined sugar was admissible into this country under the navi- , gation laws. Mr. GIBSON—The navigation laws, to which his Hon. Friend alluded, held that manufactured goods were to be considered the gools of the country in which they were manufactured. Mr. RICARDO did not think that an answer to his question. Mr. GIBSON would take the liberty of stating, on the part of Government, that he would answer more fully the question of his lion. Friand at a future period. Mr. RICARDO gave notice that he should, on Monday, repeat his question. THE NAVAL SERVICE—PURSERS AND PAYMASTERS. Captain PECHELL said, that ho wished to ask the Secretary of the Admiralty a question. In the course of last session, and the session before, petitions had been presented from the pursers and paymasters in the navy, complaining that, notwithstanding the recommen dation of the commission appointed to inquire into this subject, the petitioners had not received any addition tc their half-pay. The petitioners had in one case surrendered 20 per cent., and in another 23 per cent. of their sea profits, in order that they might have a better half-pay. They had been told on the last occasion, that if they would forego their claims for that session the Govern ment would give them their favourable attention in'the next session. Relying upon that promise, they had not pressed their claims, and he (Captain Pecbell) wished now to know what steps had been taken to bring about some satisfactory arrangement? Mr. WARD said, that in accordance with the recom mendation of the Commissioners appointed in 1841, one shilling per day would be added to the half pay of these claimants in the present year. Captain PECHELL wished to say that he had received a communication from a paymaster placed on the six shilling list who had not been able to obtain the addition recommended by the Commissioners. RAILWAY ACCIDENTS. Colonel SIIITHORP gave notice, that if no more competent Member would bring in a Bill for the better regulation of railways, he should on an early day move for leave to bring in a Bill to compel railway companies to give ample compensation to the survivors of those persons who should have lost their lives by accidents on railways. SUGAR IN BREWERIES. An Horr. MEMBER asked if any objection would be urged by Government to the use of sugar in breweries for the purpose of colouring beer? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if his Hun. Friend exercised a little patience he would find that when the Bill came before Committee there was a clause inserted having special reference to this matter. HER MAJESTY'S NAVY. Sir C. NAPIER wished to ask a question of the Hon. the Secretary of the Admiralty, but, as he had not given notice of it, he would not request an answer till Monday next. Last year it would be that 100 naval captains had been taken off the list, an d he found that within a recent period 72 fresh ones has been added. Now, as it had been stated that the cap tains' list was to be reduced to 500, he wished to ask the Hon. Gentleman the Secretary fur the Admiralty vthe ther the list had been reduced below that number by so many, or whether this new introduction of names was an addition to the complete number ? Mr. WARD said le would give an answer on Monday. IRISH POOR-LAWS. Mr. P. SCROPE gave notice that,;in Committee on the Irish Poor-law Relief Bill, he would call the attention of the House to the expediency of extending to able bodied labourers the same right to relief which existed under the English law. He would also propose a clause empowering boards of gus rilans:to employ the able-bodied labourers on workhouse farms, and in reclaiming the waste lands. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, it was agreed that the House, at its rising, do adjourn till Monday. SOUTH AUSTRALIA. Mr. HUTT moved for a return of all moneys received n England and in the colony for sales of land• in South Australia, or on account thereof; specifying (where practicable) the parties from whom received, and the lands purchased; also, for the expenditure of the said moneys, and the authorities for such expenditures; also, of all liabilities for balance of passage-money of emi grants; also, of the balances of the Land Fund, both in England and the colony, and where deposited; also, specifying the amount available to further emigration, and the reserve for other objects (the said returns to commence from the last accounts of the Land Fund pre sented to Parliament).—Agreed to. MILBANK PENITENTIARY. Mr. B. ESCOTT, in reference to the report which he had drawn up, as one of the Milbank Penitentiary Commissioners, wished to call the attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir George Grey) to the matter in question. The Right Honourable Gentleman had refused to receive his report, differing as it did from the report of the other two Commissioners, but he expressed himself willing to receive the substance of it in the shape of a letter. He (Mr. B. E:cott) objected to do so, and in order to be satisfied that he had acted right he had taken the advice of two eminent members of the bar. The first learned gentleman applied to was of opinion he had done perfectly right, but,:in order to be sure that he was right, he next took the opinion of Mr. Sergeant Manning. That opinion was confirmatory of the first. Under these circumstances he (Mr. Escott) must persevere in sending in the report. Mr. DUNCOMBE said that neither the House nor the public were in possession of the report twice sent and twice rejected by the punctilio of the Home Secretary. He should move that the report be brought up and laid upon the table.—(hear, hear.) Sir GEORGE GREY said he was quite ashamed to delay the House by repeating the arguments he had al ready advanced respecting the practice adhered to in re ceiving reports of Commissioners who (lid not join in a common report. He did expect that the Hon. Member would have put it in his power to have laid the document before the House verbatim et literalim, the same merely altering the commencement and the termination. He had merely to say, that no such document as had been moved for, was in his possession. Mr. B. Escott here rose, and placed a document in the hands of Sir George Grey, who threw it from him upon the table, and Mr. Escott retired. Mr. HUME said that it was a pity that the House should divide upon such a subject. The Hon. Gentle. man must know that her Majesty's Government had pursued a certain course from time immemorial, and that they could not now depart from that course. The Hon. Gentleman could not blame them for not doing that which was not according to practice. The document should be read as a letter instead of being read as a report. Mr. O'CONNELL thought it unnecessary to divide the House upon such a subject. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE did not understand now in what light the Right Hon. Gentleman held the document of which he was in possession. Sir GEORGE GREY said that he was in possession of a paper placed in his hands in a very unusual manner, and really, at the present moment, in the discharge of the duties of the office he held, and as a Member of that House, he had not as yet been able to read one word of it. Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE said that he should withdraw the motion, and bring it forward at some future period. Mr. B. ESCOTT assured the Right Hon. Gentleman that nothing was so far from his intention as to do anything disrespectful or out of the usual course. He was content to refer it to the highest legal authorities, and take their opinions upon it. The House would re member that the Right Hon. Gentleman gave it as a reason for not laying the paper before the House that ho was not in possession of it, and it was that statement which induced him to act as he bad done. The motion was then withdrawn. CHARITABLE TRUSTS. Mr. FIUME wished to ask the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department a question, of which he had given notice. He wished to know whether they were 11% N Pied shot to, pres( sent CHI A Parti Bible of in; tend, eithe Pert] irhol Float upon the ( by ts; ClUs AI th e , the i won lu g his the had Con aria, tion conl wer !uPI trap