The Sun. — London, England, 1806-06-24 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEEPS. MONDAY, JUNE 23. The House met about half past two. Counsel were heard, and evidence examined, on Simpson's 'Divorce Bill, which was read a second time. The other Bills on the Table were forwarded in their _respeffive stages; awl the House adjourned, soon after three, till to-morrow (this day). HOUSE .OF .COMMONS. MONDAY, JUNE 23. Sir JOHN- NEWPORT brought up the Irish Militia Volunteering Bill; read a first, and ordered to be read a second time on Friday. The Irish School Bill was committed ; report to morrow. TRISH ELECTION BILL. Sir JOHN _NEWPORT moved the Order of the Day for going into a Committee upon the Irish Ele&ion Bill. He said, that his obje& in making this-Motion was merely for the purpose of having the blanks filled up in - the Committee; that he shoulsl• then move to have the Bill, printed ; and, that; it might not be said that he 'had taken the House - by surprize, or that he wished to-pass a Bill the mature and obje& of which the, people of Ireland were unacquainted • with, he would then move to ii,ostpbne it till early in,lhe next Session of Atrliament. -, It was his wish that the Bill should he fully understood by, the people 'of Ireland, and that they should have ample time to - Consider it, because he was convinced that the more it was,con sidered, and the better it was made known,• the more it would be approved of. Upon these grounds he was willing to postpone the Bill till next Session of Parliament ; but at the sane time he begged to give notice, in -the most clear and distinEt manner, that it was his firm intention, anearly period of the next Session, ,again to bring forward this • Bill in, the exaa form that it would, appear wfien it - came out of the Committee. The People of Ireland would then, during She surfimer, have an opportu nity of examining this, Bill and Gentlemen would ii ire kb, - COnsider whether any ,amendments or improvements could be made in the Bill. Having thus explained his intentions, he should move that the*HOuSedo resolve itself into a ComMittee upon the said Bill. r . Col. VEREKER said, that as the Right Honour able Baronet did not mean to press the Bill this Ses sions he would not now oppose the . SPEAKER'S leaving the Chair; but he at the same time hoped that he might not be supposed to consent in any degree to the principle of the Bill, which he con ceived to bt founded upon injustice,' and , a violation • of 'the chartered Rights of - the Corporatiens of Ire, land.--,Rights which had been g ranted to them 'in the earliest ages, and which they had preserved invio , late until tills attack made upon them by the bight pon.Baronet. He therefore b , ..gged to give notice that he would use his utmost endeavours to explain the na ture of t his Bill to all, the Corporations of which he was a member, and that was five or six, -and to obtain petitions against the Bill next Session. He should also elaiin it as a rigtit that the Petitioners should be .heard by Connsel agz:iinSt the Bill. He concluded With declaring that',he did riot think the Right Hon. Baronet haa inought., in the Bill so much from gene:- ral purposes as with a view to the City of Waterford The HOliso then 'resolved itself into a Committee upon.the Bill, and the blanks were filled up. The House'being resumed, the Report - was brought' Up and was prclered to be taken into consideration on that 'day two months, and the Bill to be printed. • Mr. ALEXA NDER sid, that as his Right Hon. • Friend , had given up 'this Bill rug this' Session, he . .(Mr. Alexander) should not now make the Motion of which he' had given notice on Friday. His ob it:ft in ,giving that notice was merely to draw the 'attention of the English Members to the, subjea, but as the Bill relating to Ireland was withdrawn; his Motion was not necessary.• The Irish Spirit LiCence,Bill was committed.—Re port to-morrow. • Sir JOHN 'NEWPORT gave notice, that early next Session.,he would move for leave to bring-in a Bill to. remove all obstructions to the Trade between Great Britain and Ireland,' as fat as the - same was pra6ticable. A Petition was presented from the British Fire Insurance Office against the Globe Insurance Coni parry Incorporation Bill.—Ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. Hoanonsi brought up the Report of the West-India -Trade Bill. After a few words horn Mr. CA NNISG, the Report was ordered to be further consitle:ed on Wednesday. The Stamp Office Regulation Bill was committed. Report to-morrow. Mr. PAULL Moved for Copied of the Treaties con cluded with the Nabob of Oude, from 1765 to• 1801.. 77 --Ordered.--- , He then moved, that the Order-for the Account of the Nett Revenue of Oude should be ,complied ivith forthwith. Mr. PAULL, as he understood that the General Training Bill 'was to be discussed to -morrow, post poned iris Motion for the printing, of the first Charge against Marquis Wellesley till Wednesday. • Lord Hoi.etets moved, that Mr. Giles and others should be . added to the Committee ,to which the Surgeons' Petition was referred.—Ordered, DISABLED SEr)MEN.. Lord H. PETTY appeared at the Bar with a Mes sage fr9m His Majesty. This being brought up, was read by the Speaker as followa " G. R. "lira ej 'STY haying taken into his most serious'cort, sideration the expediency of making amore efiednal provi: #i,n tut aged, disabled, and wounded Seamen, is desirous of procuring the assistance of hii faithful CoMmons towards attaining this desirable objed ; and His Mt.TESTY has been pleased :a declare, that he is willing to grant such part of the prJp4icy arising from Fr4F:s to be condemned, as to the wis_ dam of Parliament shall seem ptoper, tor the. benefit of preenwich hospital and the Chest 'at Greenwich, in such manner as may be settled by Ad of Parliament." This Message was ordered tp be referred to a committee to-morrow. The Land-Tax Cpmrpissioners Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday. .Y4zestl-rAAT presented a Iteport pf the CPCPPtrOCT4' o f army ACc9uPtP!r — Pf494 Uz' lie efltheTO.llql The Report of the Committee on the T.rewfor,pcl-. land Trade, was committed.' In the ComtnitteWdr. VANSITTAIiT moved, that, fish should be a110w , .-!cl to be imported, for a time to be limited, and that a bounty of 3s. per owl. of fish should be granted. This was agreed to.--41eport to-morrow. The Excise Office Regulation' Bill, and the Cit . -, tom-house Fees Bill, were read a third time and 'passed, PUBLIC ACCOUNTS. Lord HENRY PETTY rose, in pursuance of the notice which lie'had formerly 'given, to submit to the House ,a•plan 'for the xtiore effectual auditing of the Public 'AccOunts. - 'The House would do him the justice to believe, that after the views which he, had stated'on a formeroccasion on this subjed, and the sense which he entertained of the magnitude and pressing nature of the evil, no unnecessary delay had taken place in bringing forward this plan,. but - that every moment had been employed in the investiga tion of the subjeCt, 'and providing means for ob viating every possible objeClion. He was glad, howevd,:that. be was enabled ) notwithstanding the diculties . that. stood in the 'way, .to 'move for this Bill, before the conclusion of the present Session of Parliament. Without 'going over the grounds ever which he had formerly travelled, or entering upon statemetits which had. then appeared, to convince the - House of the necessity of doingsomething for . the purpose of having this mass of Accounts • au-•: • di/ed, he.would content himself with laying before the House the basis of the plan which . he had in view, and Mentioning the amount of the Accounts Which remained unaudited, with respect. to 'which he had now more full and corred'information, than he had . when he'hadbefore occasion to address the I House oh this Point. Wheti this was considered it would be a proof-*--not, certainly, of the efficacy of the mezisuri, but undoubtedly of the necessity of doing something.' , He would afterwards chew, that • his method was the only•one which was likely to be attended with the desired success. The amount of Accounts unaudited .was greater than he had be fore stated. The amount of. Atcounts delivered in Was above 52 millions ;:the amount of Accounts under examination was 169 millions ; the amount of Army „Accounts not delivered' in was 209 millions ; of Navy Accounts not delivered in 100,820,0001. ; which; added to three millions! of • unaudited Accounts' in another department, made a total of about 534 millions-of money. That enor ' 'Mous amount of unaudited Accounts it was the ob-- jeCt of the present Administration, as far as in them lay, fo endeavour to audit. He had before men tioned that a great, step had before been taken for that purpose--to *which an. addition had been made last year, which was infinitely better calculated to answer the purpose in view, and which would form' a considerablp part of the institution that he was now about to submit tb the House:, He would now state. the ,plan more dirt idly.' But first he Ought to-observe, that the two Comptrollers of the Army Accounts were to be separated frpm it entirely ; a measure, the expediency of which had been already recognized. After this separation It was intended to consolidate the two existin3. Beards, and to add four Cotmpissioners ; one of these would , be Chairman with_' an increase of ,salary. It was in-.' ' tended that the application of these Boards to -any particular business relatink, to the . Aceourits, oc casion might require, should ,be left in the handS of the Treasury, which must -be best able to judge how the business ought to We appOrtioned. .At sent;hrever, it was proposed, that out, of the ten CommisSioners ; four Should be entrusted With the . auditing, of the current accounts, and these would 1 - form the first. Board: - .The :second. Board would consist of , three COthmissioners, and. these would have - the charge of those:AecoUnts which. were, nOw under, examination. The thitd Board would- also ' consist of three Commissioners, whose businegs it would be 'to bring up,fhose.Accounts .which .were entirely in atrear, and not entered On at =all. This was what at 'present appeared to be the most useful. orrangernent. At- the same time it would be ex . 4.. pedient to leave the power with the '-Treasury ; to: alter it as they should see occasion„ because the Treasury would, have ,the' best 'opportunity , of observing -how the . different Boards..wrought, and what might be the, most effe&ual mode -of carrying. -speedily . fel - ward: the, great work which ' must be. managed in some Manner or other.— , Whatever errors therefore might occur; the Tea sury would'be enabled to ,recut}them and to make up in some measure for the defeas which might escape the notice of Parliament in passin g the Bill. As the Establishment was by this plan undoubtedly. considerably increased in the .lirst instance, it was proposed to have the advantages of this increase with 'as little expence to the Public, and with as little additional) power to ..Ministers, as --possible. With this view a provision would be introduced into the Bill, by which in .no instance in case of a vacancy by death could the loss be supplied till the number was reduced to five, without coming to Patliament, and on such occasions the House would have an opportunity of discussing the necessity for, or the expediency of, the several appointments, and . of ascertaining' how the work Went on. This would') ofl - d employment to the ten Commissioners' till-1 they were reduced to the permanent number, which was six. But in the event of the business getting a s ter than was expeCted, a thing not very likely to occur, in 'that case t}. - .ere was a provision by which the CommonS; by address to His Majesty, might suppress any of, the Commissioners. But, however, Parliathent wand have the ,whole under its own eye. But' the greatest provision' respetling-the current ac : . counts was, that there should be a compulsion ex tending to 'allAccotintantS, by which they must send in their a ccounts froth year to year. He had Obte some doubts whether this provision could .be now introduced, but he had the satisfaaion to find, upon examination, that it might" be done, and accordingly this provision was introduced into the Bill. - It was proposed, within the space of three months from the 31st of December in 'each year, every AcCountAnt should send in an account of his receipts and expen ditnre. for the year preceding, together with the vouchers connected with them i and it was more over proposed, that immediately upon those accounts being gi-len in, an examination should linthwith be entered upon, and a Comparison take place 'between voucher, accounts and the voner, so that "they should at least be o far examined at the time they were de.:: livered. And also in those Cases, Where Offic e rs must, from the necessity of circumstances ; examine tlieei;* recount ditfocP PF,lii;s4; it '!%'a! proposed that the accounts should be given in there three Months before that period, instead of the three months from the 3'i st of December, as in other in-. stances. Another part of the Bill, though a -subor dinate one, certainly was to enable the Accountants to have their accounts attested wherever they 'should be, Wore any of the Canmissioners of the Ex .chequer, which, as these were spread over the whole Country, wciuld ; be - a very -•great • • convenience. Another part of the Bill he considered as of great importance, and that was the provision by, which all those Public Officers who authorised the ,expendi ture of the public money should he eharged•with that expenditure, and made accountable for it. He mentioned the instance of a General Officer who in the West Ihdies, s during the last War, had autho rised the expenditure of 200,0001. By mere acci dent he had not a Commissary with him.. If there had been a ComMissary, as the Commissary - would expend and the Officer would have the confront over him, neither of them could be charged with it. As it happened, however, the Officer- was responsible, and :when that account came to be examined it was dis-' allowed. It was therefore provided, that all who _authorised the expenditure of. money should be re sponsible ; but at the same 'time an appeal was allowed them to the &Chequer in case 'they fel!: thetnselves aggrieved. It was : also provided, that *hen ACcountants paid in any part, of the finds - which had been issued to them , in their proper Office, they should be, considered' as so far aCquitted. There now remained only tosstate the authority which was to be committed to these - Commissioners. The nature of this authority was to remain as before,' but to extend over all persons who hact the care of stores, &c. See.; all which persons they should be einpeSvered to call before "them. In addition to this, it. Was proposed that the C.omptrollers of the Army . should have the power of calling, all persons before them who were concerned in the Military Expetidi-z -tiare of the Country, and their poWers were .to be placed exactly on the same footing as they werewhen the Commission was first created , in the Reign of Queen, Anne. These Comptrollers were to be the Advisers of the Treasury -in all matters corineaed with the Military Expenditure, and -in case any persons for whom they Called should refuse to ap pear, which he was told was sometimes the case, they should have: the power of imposing , a fine ton all -such persons. ,There was one. thing more which it was , incumbent on him to state, and that was, that 'where the:stores were embezzled a va : - luation was to be made, and the: persons who had the care of those' stores were to be charged with the amount according to the valuation. ,He• had now stated the principal 'particulars . of -the plan which it was proposed to carry into execu tion for the auditing Of: . the Public Accounts. ' - 'lf 'any .thing further could' s be, suggested. for this' 'great object, it would be thankfully attendedao, ‘. As. to' the Millet - tat - ice of getting . rid of this mass 'of Accounts, ,it was too obvious to require any coin ment. But as to :the patronage that .might thus be conferred on the3reasury ? that was a point which he wished to betheroUghly inieftigated, a, ail opi nion seemed to 'be entertained by some, that there was a design in this to augment -the patronage col the Treasury. All he could say-at present was, that both his Noble Friend (Grenville), and he himself, were extremely anxious to avoid any thing that could have the tendency of giving patronage to the Trea-; sun , ;. and :if there. could be any other ,mode by which the end proposed could be eft - eau - ally: an-. swered; 'that Mode would•he gladly adopted.. Bat what .; scheme - could be proposed, that` would be equally well calculated to attain' the desired oh-' jea, and yet keep free of the Ached *Miens,. he could not at present possibly conceive. In ad ditionfti that he cOuld safely say, that -the utmost attention had been paid to the means 'of' that patronage as- much as it could be. done in consistency with the, attainment-of the object of the measure. He had stated how the' Comtnis -sioners were• to- be re-placed till they were re duced to five innqnbees . and as to InspetStors (for 'some InspedOrs'there must el necessity be):, it was in tended to select, them entirely-on account of their merits, and•the selection would be made from the most meritorious Cominissaries, on half-pay, by which Means ,the whole amount of their half-pay would be saved to the y public. The Examiners would be taken from Clerks now belonging to the Boards, and every' thing would be done .to render the Measure as economical ! and efficacious as possible. With regard to a large class 'of counts, he had been told that they were subject 'to no risk, and that they were only mentioned with a view to. swell the List of the Commissioners. • That some of the 'ACCOunts were of this de,cisetion he. was by no meals disposed to deity-,--but ,5 till the la: hour must be gone' through, and these - Accounts must be examined - . 'But as to the point of risk; it sometimes happened that there was some. risk, where, at first view, there appeared to be. There were instances of this even in the Bank . Ac-. count. He mentioned one instance; in which seven hundred thousand, poUnds had been issued from/the Bank to one individual in the West Indies. • He 'had been On 'a former occasion accused of ignorance: on this, head, and told- the Accann of Valentine Jones had no more to do with the Bank than it had to do with the Hackney-coach Office, 'a com-' parison which the Right HoneGentletnan's (Mr. Rose) experience enabled him to make. He 'would state the particulars of that transaction, and leave the matter to the judgment of the House. _ln the year 1797 ,several Bills had-been drawn on the Trea sury, which applied to the Bank to discharge those bills, and bills to the amount of 1,600,0001. were discharged, and when the subsequent Loan was made. - the Bank detained the amount. They pre sented their Accounts to the Anditors—the latter refused to allow the sum which had been drawn by Mr. Jones, which the Bank had also withheld. In ; 1798 an ex post faaa Clause, was introduced into the Loan Bill, sanctioning this condud of . the Bank, • empoWering the Auditors to admit the account, and making Mr-Valentine Jones. Insnper on the Bank Account. .This sum, therefore, had seine " thing more to do with the'Bank Account than it had to do with the Hackney-coach Office. tie would not accuse the Right Hon. Gentleman of ignorance 'on this subject— , ;he would only call it a 'sort of want of recollection. Undoubtedly, 149 w-ever, he allow ed, that with, regard to the far greater part . of the Bank Account there was 11Q risk, and as to the Paymaster, he allowed that tits VayMasters them, sa were YerY 4 . 94944 1 2 1 V Vcrsys , 19; ilae I)Pt sons under them abroad, and in many place; at home, might be of a very different description.---. But, however, he would not go on describing the dif ferent shades which might be pointed out on these topics. All that be wished to do was, to spew that great risk was, upon the whole, sustained from the unaudited state of the Accounts. Besides this, he had lio.doubt that considerable sums might be re- • covered ;- and; at any rate,--the example would - be , beneficial, and produce a considerable.effea on all. those 1. - Crho were entrusted with the public 'Money. In this view the measure would be of immense utility. It had heensaid that the War Office, parti— cularly required revision. In that he most petleEtly . agreed, and it was certainly extremely desirable that a • new distribution and new regulations could he made 'in that Office. But so many points had come under consideration that be was not prepared with' any measure respecting' the - War Office at present: • But this, however, Would . most certainly be speedily attended to. But in the mean time ,the want of thiS would not take away from the value of the measure now_ proposed, as far as it went. He pledged himself ticat next Session he would' pro. pose some Plan ;to regulate the Accounts of the War' Office.' 'But in the mean time we ought to proceed immediately ,with all that could be done for the present. - He coriChicled• by MOVing - for leave - to" bring in a Bill for consolidating the two Boards of Commissioners, and for the ,more eiredual Auditing the Public Accounts in arrear. On recolleeting himself after he sat down, he rose again and stated, that the expence of the permanent Commission would be: less by 10001 a-year than the expence of the' Establishment at present. The expence of the • present EStablishment was 2B,oool.—that of his permanent *Commission would be 27,000 ; the ex- .7. pence of the temporary addition would be 14 , 0001 . more, whiCh 'would make it in all 41,0001, Mr. ROSE did not-mean to obje& to the bring. ing in of ‘his Bill, but contended, that the far greater part of the sums which - his Lordship had mentioned ' were mere formal Accounts, where it was Morally impossible that any thing could be lost to the Public or expeaed 'to be recovered. He then made a state ment shewing where' the far.greater part of the coOnts had in fa& been already examined, and with. respe& to which the examination of the Auditors .was a mere• Point of form. Froth this he asserted' that out of 'the 534 millions mentioned.by the No ble. Lord, only eight millions No - mined in fa& to be examined andaudited. : Some AcCounts stated that there Were balances of 200,0001. remaining due, ' but that was from the year 3743, and that might as well 'be' allowed to drop out -of the books for . they could never be recovered. NO new powers, he contended, would be' here given to the Cdmmis sioners=and he read some Extra&s from the former Ad.t6 Sbew that the Cointnissioners at present exist ,. , ipg' had the Same. powera as were here proposed to be-granted to the new Commissioners: He doubted whether thefaur additional Commissioners were ne. cessary, or the -additional Ipspedors. He particU.- larly dwelt on the War'Office being negleEted, which was the most' important. of- all, and where ten mil lions- a year was expended. unaccounted for any where but at that - Office. The Batik, he still con tended, had nothing to do with -Valentine Joneasslie. Count, for he dreav the money, as, otherCommissariea did, 'on account of the :Paymaster; but he allowed that ,Bank had . beep . gnilty of an irregularity.— HC ihen stated, with regard to himself and his sine. cure; that he had•taken the Office of Secretary to the Treasury with great reludance ; and that he was the first who had quitted a good permanent situa tion to accept of a' precarious one not much better,. The salary, of Secretary to the Treasury had been reduced by certain regulations from 54001. a year • to _3OOOl, a'year but it 'afterwards augmented to 40001. a 7:/ear.. No one could save a shilling of this sum in that situation; and yet, after. all this, he had only accepted the reversion of the place which he now held dependent on two lives; ono of , them as good- as his own; and -it was only by"an accident that it came so Soon into his posses. sion. He knew thaCout of doors 'his'late friend -had been blamed for heaping Offices en him, whereas, • In fad, he only. retained this one, which he thought, tinder all the circumstances of the case, he was en. ; titled to. • I\44.QUIS WE . I.LrgLEY. Colonel Baines, who had been Aid de Camp to' General Craig,' was then Called in and examined by Mr. PAULI., on the number of Troops kept in tho Territory of Oude., • Mr. Strachey, who was one of the Judges is India, was also , examined, principally as to what he had observed as to the opinion of the Natives relative to the changes made by Lord Wellesley in the Territory of Oude. His 'answer amonnted to this, that some seemed to approve, and others to dis, approve of them. • A conversation then ensued as to the propriety of . examining Captain Salmon, who had been Super intendant ,and Auditor of Accounts in India, on the fairness of the Estimates laying on the Table of thq Expellee of the Troops: empioyed• in the Nabob's • terniories, and char p oedaninst him by-the Company, •Y Mr.' PAULL grid Dr. LAWRENCE thought hi 4 evi dence would come with more propriety - when cer tain other Accounts, which had been Moved for, and which woUld go to shew the fallacy of , those now.before the House, were produced. Sir A. WELLESLEY, Mr. W. POLE; Mr. HURST, &c. on the' other hand, argued, that Mr. Salmon . I .. must be qualified at this moment, as' being Superin: tendant of Accounts, to say whether these Aecountat . were or were not correct : if there was occasion for examining him anew . the Hun. Gentleman could, move for it. The Witness was then called in, .and he in general stated, that the orders of the Marquis Wellesley were, in making up the estimate of tile extra troops employed by the Company in the ser vice of the i\;abob,•rather to under-rate than over rate the expense. ...Being cross examined, however , by Mr. PAULL,he admitted that the calculation as to a Regiment of iiifatitry or of Cavalry, 4* specially referred to the, particular Regiments employed in Oude. • The examination of this witness being finished, the ch.iirman reported prOgreSs,, and asked leave to sit again. • • On the Motion of Mr. PAULL, there was then or, dered to be laid before the House an Account of the extra Expellee paid by the East India Company for the number 'of Troops stipulated to be engaged by til:erp • for the Nabob' of ()tide, from, the Ist Novem, ber, 1799, is? Oho WlNOVsnber, 001,