The Sun. — London, England, 1847-02-06 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMEICT. HOUSE Of LORDS, Feb. 5. The LORD CRANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack at Five o'clock. EXCHEQUER -BILLS AND B.A.ILWAY.DIVI DENDS. Lord BROUGHAM moved for a rett and for a u t ra o o f f I tte . prices of Exchequer-bills, from the bruary, 1346, to th e Ist of February, 1847, a return of the dividends pied on railway stock during the same period. _ also moved for a return of the names of all the holders of .railway Irish proprietors. on the Ist of February, 13-17, whoidwlee His object was not one of mere. rceuriosit but as it appeared that there was some intention of assimilating Ireland with England, it was but right that this informa -on s hould be given in order that they might know how t t i o legislate. He desired this the more as he found that a statement had been made last night in another place, the object, the express object, of which was to raise the price of railway shares by distributing money through out the country, so that those shares which stood at 1001. might be raised to 2001. He would take that oppor tunityof vindicating himself from a grievous misrepre sentation. He did not generally care about misrepre sentation; but he had been so painfully assailed by so many letters, that he wished to put himself right, for he was described as one of the most cruel and hard-hearted individuals in existence. It was stated that he wished to raise the price of bread. What he actually said was, that it was better that bread should be dear rather than cheap in a time of scarcity ; for if wheat were to be brought to market cheap at such a period the whole produce would quickly be bought up; and thus, if there was a scarcity in the month of February, that scarcity would become fa mine in the month of June. The very words he used were, that ho would rather bread was dear than cheap, lest scarcity should become dearth, and dearth be converted into famine. His Noble Friend (the Duke of Rutland) had put his establishment on three-fifths of their usual allowance, and he had done the same. The question of price did not affect such persons as his Noble Friend and himself, but it did naturally affect the poor labourer, and therefore he de sired that the bread should be kept up, so that the whole of the supplies should be exhausted before they got the fresh harvest in. He thought that in times of distress, especially, public men should not be misrepresented. Lord STANLEY perfectly agreed with his Noble Friend (Lord Brougham) that public men should not be misrepresented, but he had stated that a great and com prehensive measure which was introduced the other night in another place was brought in solely for the purpose of raising the price of shares. A more frivolous misrepresentation could not be made. He did not intend to stop then to urge the policy of the measure of his Noble .Friend, because, unless the interposition of the Crown were exercised to pass it into a law, without the intervention of their Lordships, it would shortly come before them for discussion, but he could not forbear stating that the object of the Bill was not to raise the value of rail way shares in Ireland, but for the purpose of promoting its interests, without adding one shilling to the taxes of the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.) It was for carrying out works of great public utility, which, with out the aid of the State, must be discontinued at the very time when they were most necessary—for the purpose of encouraging :sad improving the condition of the agrizultural labourers of that country, and for fur nishing the means for giving constant employment to a large portion of the population for the next four years at least, but not withdrawing them from agricultural employment by giving them too easy or too well-paid work. The object was to facilitate improvements in the internal communication of the country, at a time when capital from private individuals was checked, on account of the deplorable condition of the people. Entertaining great respect for his Noble Friend in another place (Lord 3. Bentinck), and for his Noble and Learned Friend in shot House (Lord Brougham), he could notallow it to go forth that the scheme propounded by his Noble Friend had for its object to increase the value of railway shares, because it had for its object, as he had said, the promo tion of great national improvements of great public advantage, without casting any additional burdens on the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.) Lord BROUGHAM thought his Noble Friend must have been attending to something else, and not being able to listen to two things at once, had attributed a statement to him which he did not make. He did not say that the object of the Bill was for the purpose of bene fiting private individuals by enabling them to sell their shares at a higher value than they could at present. Un doubtedly the groundwork of the measure was to apply capital to Irish railways, and to enable railway owners to sell their railway shares. What he stated was, that for:every 100/. worth of shares sold out another 100/. worth would be bought in. He had not read the debate of last night—in fact, he was not often in the habit of reading them—but a friend had informed him that the Bill would enable the holders of shares to sell them, and to invest their capital in others. He had no imonomanis against railways; he only wanted to see there carried out at the expense of their promoters, and not at the expense of others. The Duke of RICHMOND could not allow the mea sure to be disposed of in the present manner without say i ng 0, few words on the subject. It was a measure calculated to be of more permanent service than any measure whleh had ever been introduced since he had been in that House. It appeared to him to commence at the right end—Cheers) —and would induce capital to flow from this country to Ireland, and the conse quence would be that the Irish people would consume more exciseable articles, be better able to live on the produce of their own agriculture; it would improve the morals of the people, and it would also be the means of enabling them to consume more manufactured goods, and thereby extending the home markets, which after all, was the foundation of the great prosperity of this country. lie did not oppose the motion of his Noble and Learned Friend, and he hoped that there vvould be enough English and Scotch Members to carry that Bill through who were not in the least connected with railways. (Cheers.) The people of Englaud were not called upon to give money by this measure to the people of Ireland; the measure was one which would take nothing out of the pockets of the people of England, but would give support to the people of Ireland.—(Cheers.) Earl FITZWILLIAM said that he had nothing to offer in opposition to the motion of the Noble and Learned Lord. He regretted the tone of the conversa tion which had taken place on the subject. It might be 'considered that the Noble and Learned Lord had some sidolong view in wishing to have the names of all those persons who might be possessed of shares in Irish railways, He was aware, on looking to the votes of the House of Commons, that a measure had been in• troduced into that House for the purpose of facilitating the making of railroads in Ireland. He then looked anxiously to see whet her the Bill was brought in by the Noble Lord at the head Bill w a s Government he was disappointed, Nwever, to see that the Noble Lord was not the author of the Bill ; but when he saw, not from the official accounts, but from accounts, though not official, peraps quite as accurate, that the Bill was in such very able hands as the Noble Lord's who had introduced it, he was much gratified. — (Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord had exhibited zeal, industry, and ability, which had entitled him to the gratitude of the Irish people and the united empire. He wished that the measure had been in the hands of the Government, and that they had had the credit of introducing such a crowning measure as had been introduced.—(Cheers.) Ho hoped there would be no interference with the prerogative to pre vent the measure passing.—(Cheers.) He came down to the House determined to express his opinions upon the subject ; and, considering the relation in which he stood with her Majesty's Government, he felt it his duty to state to them what course he meant to pursue. He could not conceive that, as they were not the au thors of the measures, it would not be agreeable to them that he should rise and express his opinions in favour of the measure.—(Cheers.) In whatever hands the measure may be in, when it came up to their Lord ships' House, he was determined to give it his most strenuous and undivided support. Lie certainly thought that the Railway system should be in the hands of the Government rather than of individual members or com panies, who would be supposed always to study their own interests rather than the great interests of the whole co:intry, and especially Ireland in its present state. H e had deep rooted opinions that the whole railway sys t e m should be in the hands of the Government. It was a most anomalous thing, that all the means of travelling should be in the hands of some great companio. These opinions he bad entertained and expressed, for many years, to their Lordships. lie hoped the Government would take the measure into their own hands. as he believed it would be ofsmore use than any other measure which had been brought under the notice of the House by her Maiesty's Ministers. Now he was not going to express any opinion, either for Or against the landlords of Ireland, but he thought that tho measure which contemplated the im provement of the country through the instru mentality of one class could not possibly produce those beneficial results which they ought to contemplate. lie thought, connected betawih this great of mea sure of railways, there ought system if pot carried otl, At least largely assisted. emigration,He thought that by Government.--(Hear, bear.) . the persons employed upon rail .7ays ought g ltlo .radu a y have the opportunity ;01 emigrating and be was decidedly an advocate for some graoil 5Y:s tern of emigration going on throughout the whole sur face of the land. Upon these grounds he was decidedly of opinion that, instead of these railways being intrusted to private companies, they ought to be taken up and constructed toy Government at the public expense.—(Hear, hear.) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he did not in tend to oppose the return, nor did he apprehend that the moti on would have given rise to any discussion. After what had fallen, however, from the Noble * Lord , who had just resumed his seat, he must be allowed to say a word or two. The particular preroga tive the Noble Earl h a d alluded to was ono of the most constitutional prerogatives attached to the Crown, and one which it would be injudicious and unwise to abandon in any instan As yet measure, but it had not been interposed to stop this C easure, w hether it would be exercised byru the would depend upon the opinion entertained by iierwAnlaesty's advisers as to t he de g ree of mischie f the measure was likely to produce u p on the public interest; He was surpr ised that this observation should have been made on a motion like this, and especially one which bad been made without notice. The Earl of WINCIIILSEA could not refrain from making a few observations_ „for no man felt more deeply the distress of his fellow -countrymen than he did ; and w hil e he gave all credit . to her: Ma jesty's Government for their intentions, and while he fully appreciated the difficulties withthe which sures they had to contend, he still must say that mea which they proposed to introduce Wo uld never prove of • THE SUN ) the people s of Ireland. Th LONDON SATURDAY EVENIN G, FEBRUARY 6 .--,......---- -- i--- ...L.A.M. .1P ntry had. been doubled within 6, 'any perman.ent dist ) " Y. population of that coi,". j the last twenty years, and i; was :perfectly cl: ar that the land could never provide sucTicierit employment f;r the poor of that country, and they would be driven into some extensive measure of colonisatissn to relieve the country of its surplus population. He -had always advocated some system of colonisation, yet if .1 were to be carried out to any effective extent, it would require an outlay of at least 4,000,0001. or 5,0 ,1,000/. per an num. This was not a greater sum than the plan pro posed by his Noble Friend in the other House, and he did think that if that plan were adopted, it would, by facilitating intercourse throughout the county, be productive of excellent results, and return a large advantage to this country for the outlay that was made to effect it. Yet, at the same time, he still believed that the Government would be driven into some great and comprehensive scheme for the perma nent improvement of Ireland. TRANSPORTATION. In reply to the Al arquis of SALISBURY, Earl GREY stated that the papers on transportation would be laid on the table in the course of a few days. EDUCATION. The Marquis of LANSDO WNE, after laying some papers on the table, proceeded to state to their Lord- Ships the nature of the minute which the Privy Coun cil had lately adopted with respect to education. He said he might have laid the minute on the table without offering any remarks with respect to it. as the altera tions which it proposed would be carried out without the intervention of either Houses of Parliament ; but he thought it right, as early in the Session as possible, to put their Lordships in possession of the views which her Majesty's Government entertained on the subject of the education of the people. He confessed it would have given great satisfaction to him if he had been enabled to state that the Government were prepared with a plan of public education for the people of this country, so large, so comprehensive as at once to put the population, with respect to education, in that condition in which it was in some parts of Europe, in which an uueducated child was an almost solitary exception, and in which it might be said, " that education was con sidered universally necessary." But he was bound to state that it had not appeared to her Majesty's Govern ment that they could practically effect a system of education upon a large and universal scale. It un doubtedly might have been attempted, but it could only have been attempted with serious, if not with over whelming, difficulties. It could they thought only be made comprehensive, or, at least, eo comprehensive as to include in the same plan, and in the same schools, placed under the control of the Government, not only all conditions of the people, but of all religious denomi nations ; and the longer he had observed the progress of the question, the more convinced he had become of the difficulties which would have to be encountered in attempting a system of education on a scale so enlarged, and with views so extensive. These difficulties were not new, and he appealed in corroboration of this to his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Brougham), who had been so honourably and so valuably connected with the progress of education, and stands connectedwith the pro motion of a general system of education, such as her Ma jesty's Government would consider proper to be sup ported. It might be said that that which individuals had failed to do the Government might effect. This was not so in the case of education, as all the efforts of Government would be met by feelings of mistrust and jealousy among two classes of the people, one of whom, consisting of perhaps the most pious and conscientious persons, objected to education being carried on at all in a mixed school ; the other class being that not unim portant one which deprecated entirely all interference of the state in matters of education. When he stated that these were two powerful classes of objectors, he did not mean to say that their opinions were at all universal. It could not, however, be supposed that there were not many learned and religious persons who considered that although the dangerous path to learning should not be trod without the light of religious instruction to guide them, still he thought that it was quite possible to educate under the same roof children of different denominations, and holding various religious opinions. The Government had there fore come to the conclusion that it was not expedient to introduce any general or extended measure of educa tion. It did, however, appear to the Government, that it was necessary to give, under various heads, some assist ance towards the establishing and extension of education beyond that which had hitherto been set apart for that purpose, and also to stimu late efforts of those individuals and societies under whose patronage the schools had already been supported. Their Lordships would be glad to know what had been the operation of the existing Bill. He was glad to say that there had been a progressive increase in the grants that had been made between the years 1833 and 1846. The grants during that period amounted to 490,0001., and this sum had secured education annually for 700,000 children. All the schools to which grants were made had been inspected, and he was glad to say that a num ber of schools who did not require grants had petitioned the Council to have inspectors sent down to examine into the condition of their institutions. In addition to those included in the grants he had mentioned, there were a number of diocesan and normal schools that had received assistance. We now come to the suggestions which, though not of great importance, yet th©y sit in the right direction. The first was, that the inspection be more frequent, and that the establishment should be sufficient for inspection once a year. To insure this, the addition of three or four inspectors was made. The next subject to which he would invite the attention of their Lordships was the reports from the schools. Most of these reports showed one great difficulty, and that was not only a de ficiency of masters competent to their duties, but also of assistants fit for their duties. It was, therefore,proposed that in all good schools the masters should be allowed to take apprentices from among the best boys, and for each apprentice the master should have an allowance granted, the guardians, inspectors, and visitors, having the right of recommending those boys who were most fit for the duty, and thus a regular supply of school masters instructed and trained for their position. It was proposed, beyond this, that from the apprentices so trained for the purpose of adding to the general stock of schoolmasters, a certain number should be selected for the purpose of entitling that number, having con ducted themselves well, and usefully contributed to carry on the discipline of the school—he said a certain num ber would be selected for the purpose of having exhibi tions for normal schools, thus constituting another element in thir progress towards the station of school masters. But not only was it their intention to grant these exhibitions, but, as there would be probably a certain number of persons intended for the office of schoolmasters that might not be after all, although they might have con ducted themselves properly, although they might have taken pains to avail themselves of the ad vantages offered them, although they might have bene fited to a certain extent, still after all this training, they might not be found fitted for the office of schoolmasters, and it was, therefore, proposed that an arrangement j should be made in which he had the satisfaction of stating that the Noble Lord at the head of the Treasury, ' and his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, had expressed their entire concurrence. An arrangement had been made by which a certain number of these apprentices, not becoming school masters, should be entitled to employment in the revenue departments of the state. This would con stitute a double encouragement for these young men, by which a greater number might be qualified to attain the office of a schoolmaster ; and if found unfitted for that office, still Government would not lose the benefit of their services in another of its departments. There would be of course for the purpose of carrying out this system, a periodical examination of the pupils, and this, also, would have the effect of advancing them in their progress towards that office. He now came to another subject which he considered must be materially altered to affect the general course of e ducation.—(Hear.) There was no class of men in this country who had more claim upon the gratitude of the country, or who were better entitled to the attention and favour of the Govern ment than the schoolmasters of England. There was no class of melt more unlikely to reap, in a worldly sense, the reward of their toils and exertions. Many of those who had considerable influence over the character and interests of the children, saw them ad• vancing to prosperity while they were themselves chained down to their laborious exertions in a state of hopelessness and without requital, and, in many in stances, dispirited by their want of success ; their feel ings chilled by want, and checked by penury. It was, therefore, proposed that a small provision should be made for the schoolmasters in their old age ; and that any person who could show that they had for fifteen years conducted, in an unexceptionable manner, a public school should be entitled to the provision. —(Hear, hear.) This provision would be made upon the reports of the inspectors made to the Treasury at the period of their visitation. It was proposed, in connexion with these schools to es tablish places of industry, or workshops, so that children during their leisure hours might receive instructions in some useful craft, and the gentlemen in the neighbour hood would be stimulated to give their assistance and co-operation to those schools ; but it would also tend to obviate what had always been felt as a groat evil, namely, that of parents withdrawing their children from the school, from what they considered useless'. earning, with a view of putting them to something which they thought would bo more useful to their families. He trusted, however, that the introduction of this system would effect a great change. Some of these schools s ee indeed already established, and are very successful at ;the ' present moment. He was happy to say that ho had found a very general co-peration and desire for improvement among all the ministers of religion, but he should not be doing his duty if he did a ll doomiriations he had received the notmo most declare e ablecl ar e among assistance from tti Plergy of the Church of England. Not a day passed without receiving letters continually complaining of the want of snob intsrection for the children of their parishes, and he was happy to say, that the exertions they had made had been emi nently successful in alleviating the evil. An excellent account of the benefit which was wrought by this diffu sion of education was given in the pamphlet of a clergy man named Dawes, who had succeeded in establishing a school in his parish, and had so completely altered the character of the place, that whereas it had been distin guished for vice and immorality ten years before it was how equally eminent for the reduction of crime, and the improvement of the whole of its inhabitants. He had class haebeetl u l .l'ne away e,;e2 succeeded by the success of his schoo ls, that he had complete;; broken down prejudice, and th e feelin g of their children to the sae .. schools as labourers attended. And - from distant parts sent their it was '' village, in order th:t e t n la tending on Mr. Dawes schools. triumph. This was at made, because it urea tt str iking This statement he (the with, and the farmers sent those which their -ven a fact, that farmers • - board in the their children to . arciuis of Th i i: an s s y d a o s wi a loii great ad sc at might have the benefit o. . sng'a Salford, in Hampshire. proof of the benefits of education. As another instance of the benefit of these i schools—in one of these schools 153 children had been, out of their little savings—out of the pre;enes of their parents, been enabled to purchase 15/. worth of books. —(Hear, hear.) He anticipated great advantage from the establishing of these industrial schools,: and especially from their connexion with the workhouses, for it was also intended to associate them with 'the work houses, and to establish libraries in them. Great com plaint had been made of the want of books, and of the difficulty of obtaining cheap sets, and it was, therefore, : intended, out of the grants of last session, to give sets of books to these schools. He was quite aware that this scheme fell far short of the necessity of the case, and of providing a general instruction for the whole of the peo ple. but yet it was a great step, and he trusted it would prove effectual in at least approaching to a remedy of the evil. From his own experience, he fully anticipated that every assistance would be rendered by the ministers of religion, but he must repeat that he should not be doing his duty in speaking of the zeal of those gentle men, if he did not say that, of all denomin itions, the clergy were pre-eminent, short as it was, he believed the scheme would prove beneficial to the country. Lord BROUGHAM was sure nothing could be better than this system which he had just proposed of coming to Parliament for the money to carry out some plan of education. It was evident they had no sufficient plan. He lamented as much as his Noble Friend that they found themselves just as far as ever from having a national, a public, or general system. That was no fault of theirs or any other Government, but it arose from some evil in the state of society, which while it lasted would baffle all attempts to obtain universal edu cation. He was no friend to compulsory education. People who generally complained of the want of educa tion, wished to know why they did not adopt the system of Prussia. Did they know there the system of educationwas almost a military system? Did they know that if they took a recipe from a physician in this country, he could not, as happened to a friend of his, get it made up when they applied to a druggist, without going through the hands of a physician regularly educated there? Everything there was compulsory. But that sort of thing would not do here, although it was all very well in Prussia, where the people were too ignorant to feel the evil. An Eng lishman was not to be forced, for the more you at tempted to compel him, the farther he would recede. Let them, however, provide cheap schools, and they would stimulate private beneficence, and the people would be encouraged to send their children to the schools, and then by degrees, but only by degrees, would they lead to general education. Let them give a portion of the money necessary for these sehools, and they would bring the sympathies and the co-operation of the people into play. The Board of Education had adopted this plan with a view not to supersede, but to aid private exertion, and nearly 500,0001. had been advanced very advantageously since 1832 for that purpose. Education was the best aid of religion and the best guardian of morality. All his own experience, and all the experience of the criminal law which he or other judges concurred in, the opinion was that punishment was no preventive of crime compared with shame. But compel the criminal to refund the thing he has stolen within forty-eight hours, and he would never again commit the same offence. No man committed a crime without an object, and that generally was to avoid shame. The forger, unless he attempted to run away, committed forgery in the hope of avoiding the shame of bankruptcy. That was the sort of view taken of the subject, and, in very few cases, and in a very small degree, punishment was not heeded. What, then, was the remedy? Why, prevention. The crimi nals came 'in almost all cases from an inferior class of society. Their Lordships were not members of that class.—(Hear.) It was not persons in their rank who helped to swell the list of criminals. The proper remedy for this evil was to educate the youth of the country at a very early age, and then to instil into their minds such feelings, as in their Lordships and the higher classes, prevented the outbreak of such evil passions. Their Lordships might depend upon it that a wide spread and general infant education would do more to prevent crime than all the criminal laws, executions, transportations, and penitentiaries. These were his reasons why a ge neral and well defined system of infant education should be brought forward and supported by the Government. The Church and Dissenting communities were most zea lously bent upon improving the education of the masses. It would be ungrateful for him not to notice their e xertions. But between the Church and the Dissenters, however, there was a feeling of controversy which marred their united exertions, the sole object of each party seemed to be victory, and both of the parties threw impediments in the way of an extended scheme of education, which were all founded upon controversial opinions and dogmas. It was his opinion that a system of super vision could not be maintained over the Dissenters, because they were divided into so many sections—the Church of England was one, and could therefore be more easily cultivated by the regulating body, and he was therefore of opinion, however he might have op posed it before, that it would be much the best way to bring forward a general scheme of education under the control of the Church. Such a system should be at once introduced, and if the Dissenters did not like to take the benefit of the measure, they must leave it alone ; but he was quite sure that all the better class of Dissenters would soon adopt the measure, and thereby incalculable advantages would result to the State. He thought it would be also advisable to estab lish central normal schools in various parts of England, for the purpose of educating and preparing a class of schoolmasters and teachers. In the schools established he thought, too, that it would be a good thing if the Government were to adopt the system of taking quarter pence from the children. The parents were much snore likely, when they paid something for their children's education, to see that they attended the school regularly. With respect to the proposed plan for giving pensions to the schoolmasters, he thought that the period named, fifteen years, was too short a period to entitle them to a pension. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—That term was to the minimum period. Lord BROUGHAM—In that case he would not have so much objection. He also thought that an improved system of education was highly desirable. Ile wished in conclusion to impress upon their Lordships the neces sity for establishing upon a large scale, infant schools for the education of the children of the poor. The Bishop of LONDON said he should trespass very shortly on their Lordship's time after what had been said by several Noble Lords, but the subject was one which he could not allow to pass without some ob servations. He wished, in the first place, to express the satisfaction with which he had heard the clear and candid statement of the Noble Marquis. He thought the steps which the Government proposed to take were exceedingly wise and judicious. The important features of the plan were inspection and encouragement by pecu niary grants and pensions to those engaged in normal or training schools. He considered that no system, however wisely contrived, unless properly and vigilantly superintended—not a superintendence induced by jealous or private curiosity, but a superintendence by real friends, who were anxious to have the funds voted by the Government, or given by private and public beneficence, devoted to the purposes for which they were intended, and not wasted and thrown away, was the only superintendence that could really promote a good and efficient system of education. From the first introduction of education, aided by grants from the Government, he had pressed upon the clergy the great advantage which they would derive by calling in the inspectors, and the preju dice formerly entertained with respect to them had de parted, and the assistance of the inspectors was found most beneficial. He thought it right to state that the inspectors had discharged their duty with courage in the most unobjectionable manner, and with the utmost con sideration and regard for the feelings of the clergy— and so long as they continued to follow that line of conduct, so long would they meet with the utmost facilities during their periodical visits. Then normal schools had not so much to contend against the want of funds as the want of efficient means to work them.— (Hear.) Such as the schoolmaster was, such would be the school. Therefore, he was satisfied that her Majes ty's Government could not act more wisely than in pro moting the extension of normal schools, and by training up schoolmasters in the way mentioned, would induce them to emulate each other, and to fit themselves to perform a creditable part in the exhibition which took place from time to time. He could not help suggesting to the Noble and Learned Lord the expediency of his paying a visit to some of the best conducted normal schools in which he would find that many of the suggestions he had made were in actual operation.—(Hear, hear.) For instance, lineal drawing had not only been practised for some time in the National, but in the Normal schools also.—(Cheers.) Then the Noble and Learned Lord had suggested the establishment of such schools in different parts of the kingdom, but at that time there were several in exit ence; there was one in Chester, one in York, Durham, Salisbury, and Exeter; so that that great want of which he had spoken had been partially supplied. He also suggested the expediency of making the children pay, what he called, " quarterly pence." Now, there was scarce a National school, especially in London, where " weekly pence" was not paid. the payment quarterly was objectionable. In fact, if the payments were not more frequent, there was a great probahility that none would be made. In some cases a great portion of the expense of the schools was paid in this way. He only mentioned these things in order to show the Noble Lord the great improvements that had been made during the last few years in those schools. In the school at Chester to which he (the Right Rev. Prelate) had alluded, there were several pupils who when the proper time came, would_ pass their examina tions, and evince perhaps as much knowledge of morals and philosophy as those in the schools of modern Athens, for whose institutions the Noble and Learned Lord had so much respect.—(Hear, hear.) There was one part of the statement of the Noble Mar quis on which he should reserve his opinion until he had obtained further information —he meant the workhouse schools, the importance of which could not be over rated; and it should not be forgotten that it was ad • visebin that those schools should be assimilated to the nations l schools so far as the mode of instruction was concerned. Ile had visited some of these workhouse schools. lie had visited one in his own parish (Ful ham), and he was sure, another in which the children were more happy, more cleanly, or more sensibly amused, did not exist — ( Hear, hear.) In lookin g at the children, he cou ld not help contrasting their condition with what it would have been, if they had been under the roofs of their parents. He had, as his Noble Friend knew, taken a lively interest in the esta blishment of infant schools ; he had been instrumental in establishing the first infant school at Chester. H e that nothing of a controversial nature c ould be was aware, °win. to the tender ages of the children, e. in troduced ; but as they were seminaries, or nurseries to the training schools, religious instruction ought to be '-earted at the earl!,7° l. Periodin the large towns -- se • -esnecially as owing Le the frequency _ (Hear, hear).- _ Pre taken from the schools , with which the children for the purpose of being set t 4 work, they were deprived of the benefit of religious training•. That instruction ought to be imparted even if there was no chance of fi nishing it. He earnestly hoped that no disparagement would be thrown on the national religion in carrying out the impvovements and extensions which the Privy Council had adopted, for which ho begged to thank them most sincerely. The Bishop St. ASAPH bad no objection to the se lection of teachers from the lowest ranks of the people; but he considered that a great evil would be in flicted on the country if they were all taken from those ranks. The majority of the schoolmasters and school mistresses in England were taken from the ranks of lit tle shopkeepers or small farmers, who were but a step above the labouring classes. Out of twenty he found that only two had been in the national schools. Ho considered that the teachers ought to be selected from the middle classes. Such a class might be selected from the old fashioned grammar schools. The Earl of WINCHILSEA ccnsidered that no sys tem would be efficient except it was based on the prin ciples of the Established religion of the country, and under the control of the clergy, who, if they zealously devoted themselves to tke subject, might save the ex pense of the Government inspectors. Many of the people were living in:a state of infidelity and heathenism, and it was, therefore, the duty of the Government to do all in their power to promote their spiritual welfare. He approved of the plan submitted to their Lordships by the Noble Marquis. The ARCHBISHOP of CANTERBURY said his views on the subject had been so well expressed by the Right Reverend Prelate, who had just addressed their Lordships, that he thought it unnecessary for him to trespass on their time, beyond sincerely expressing his thanks to the President of the Privy Council, for the attention which he had paid to the subject of education, and for bringing the plan he had before the House. a storm and lost ; and that they were not captured or murdered by the inhabitants. PENINSULAR MEDALS. Sir ANDREW LEITH HAY %ished to put a ques tion to the Secretary at War as to the steps which had been taken to carry into effect her Majesty's gracious intention of granting medals to the officers of the Penin sular army. Mr. FOX MAULE said, that in carrying out the gracious commands of her Majesty the details of the measure had been attended with considerable diffi culty. He could assure the Honourable Member, and the House, who had expressed so strong a feeling on the subject at the close of the last session, that no unnecessary delay should take place in conferring on those gallant officers the rewards which her Majesty had been graciously pleased to appoint. RUSSIAN DUTIES ON HERRINGS. Sir ANDREW LEITH HAY wished to put a ques tion to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs relating to the duties levied in Russia and other countries on her rings exported from Great Britain ; he wished to know whether it was the intention of that Government to lower the rate of duties levied upon that article of export? Lord PALMERSTON said that each country regu lated its own tariff according to its own interests, real or supposed, and it was a question in which other Govern ments could not interfere. He regretted, therefore, that he was not able at present to give any satisfactory answer to the question of the Hon. Member. THE BLACK CAT. Mr. MUNTZ wished to know upon what Authority, or upon what grounds, the schooner Black Cat was de tained in the river, and why all information upon the subject WAS refused to the owners by the Custom-house authorities. Several reports were then received and brought tip, and forwarded a stage ; and their Lordships adjourned at a Quarter -past Eight o'clock. Lord PALMERSTON replied that the Black Cat was detained at the request of the Portuguese Minister, who represented that tke Black Cat was laden with con• aiderable stores, to be used in hostilities on the coast of Spain. . _ HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 5. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. NEW MEMBERS. Mr. MUNTZ gave notice that, on Thursday week, he should bring the subject of the detention of the Black Cat under the attention of the House.—(Laughter.) In answer to a question from Mr. O'CormiELL, Mr. LABOUCHERE replied that Dublin would not be excluded from the operation of the Destitute Persons (Ireland) Act. Mr. AGLIONBY wished to know if Government in tended to bring in any measure this session to correct the evils attendant upoa the collection of the Merchant Seaman's Fund. Earl GROSVENOR and Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR took the oaths and their seats—the former for Chester, in the place of his uncle, and the latter for Middlesex, in the place of Mr. Byng, deceased, SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time, and or dered to be committed:— . Bristol and South Wales Junction Railway and Aust Ferry. Direct London and Portsmouth and London, Brighton, and South Coast Railways Amalgamation. Doddington Rectory Division. Glasgow, Airdrie, and Monklands Junction Railway (Cowlairs, Carmyle, Central Junction, and Coplavr hill Branches, and Montrose-street Terminus). Glasgow, Airdrie, and Monklands Junction Railway (Cowlairs Branch). Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway, and Ayrshire and Bridge of Weir Railway (No. 3). Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle Railway, and Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway (No. 2), Kingston-upon-Thames Small Tenements. _ _ Mr. WARD replied that it bad been determined to institute a further inquiry into the subject, and a com mission would be appointed for that purpose. Upon the result of that commission a measure would be founded for remedying such evils as might be found to exist. Liverpool, Manchester, and Newcastle-upon-Tyne Junc tion Railway. London and North-Western Railway (Purchase of the Earl of Ellesmere's interest in the Manchester south Junction and Altrincham Railway). Liskeard and Launceston Branch Railway. Lynn and Ely Railway (Extension to Spalding and Holbeach). Lynn and Ely Railway (Extension to Bury St. Edmund's). Llynvi Iron Company. Manchester and Lincoln Union Railway Deviation. Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railways (Louth and Horncastle and East Lincolnshire Junctiun Branches). Manchester Markets. Norfolk Railway (from Thetford to the Lowestoft Rail way near Reedham, with a Branch to Hales worth). North-Western Railway (Diversions at Skipton, Caster- ton, and Sedbergh). - Pres - ton and Wyre Railway. Reading, Guildford, and Reigate Railway. Wharfdale Railway (Skipton and Cayley Hall Delia- tions). Wear Valley, Bishop Auckland, and Weardale, Wear dale Extension, and Wear and Derwent Railways, and Shildon Tunnel Amalgamation. CAMBRIDGE AND THETFORD RAILWAY. This Bill was read a first time. LONDON IMPROVEMENTS BILL. This Bill was brought up, and read a first time. LONDON WATERWORKS. This Bill was also read a first time. OXFORD-STREET IMPROVEMENTS. This Bill was also read a first time. STANDING ORDERS. It was reported from the Committee of Standing Orders, that in the cases of the Bristol and Yeovil Rail way, and the Glasgow and Tregarthan Railway, the standing orders ought not to be dispensed with. PUNISHMENT OF DEATH. Mr. BROTHERTON presented a petition from certain inhabitants of the city of London against the punishment of death. POOR REMOVAL ACT. Mr. W. 0. STANLEY presented petitions against the Poor Removal Bill. BREAD. Mr. JOHN O'BRIEN presented petitions from the inhabitants of Limerick, and also from ale corporation of that place, praying that the bakers might be com pelled to sell bread by weight. TEN HOURS' BILL. Mr. FERRAND presented several petitions from places in the manufacturing districts in favour of a ten hours' Bill. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Mr. ETWALL presented a petition from Stockford, in Hants, against the law of settlement, and stating that their rates had been largely increased by it. LIGHT-llothikS AND BUOYS. Captain PECHELL presented a petition, numerously signed, from the shipowners of Sunderland, praying that the cost of lighthouses and buoys should be de frayed out of the Consolidated Fund. _ POOR BLIND. Lord JOHN MANNERS presented a petition which stated that the number of blind persons in the several asylums of the country was upwards of nineteen thousand, while there was only provision for the educa tion and religious instruction of two thousand. REDUCTION OF THE DUTIES ON SPIRITS. The NOBLE LORD also presented a petition from several places in Scotland against the proposed reduction on ruin and other foreign spirits. The pestitioners stated that this reduction would occasion a loss of 2,000,0001 to the country. TEN HOURS' BILL. Mr. SPOONER presented a petition from Bolton in favour of this Bill. SECURITY OF TENURE. Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented a petition from the guardians of Broadhurst (as we understood), setting forth that insecurity of tenure, and th e want o f a l aw compelling compensation for the outl a y ma d e b y tenants in improving .the soil, were the great causes of the pre sent distress in Ireland, and that if the lands of that country were properly cultivated remunerative employ ment would be given to the whole people, and that they would thereby be enabled to support themselv es during similar calamities from t h e Government, and prying the House to pass a law to promote security of tenure. MALT DUTY. Mr. WODEHOITSE presented a petition from Nor-- folk, praying for the repeal of the malt duties. amended the burdense law d ;on REDUCING THE DUTIES ON SPIRITS, Mr. lIUM E p resented a p etition from distillers in Forfarshir e, p ra y ing that the p ro p o,ed reduction of the d ut i e s on spirits mi g ht not be carried out. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Mr. PALMER presented a petition from the bo ar d o f gua rdians of t he Abin g don Union, com p laini ng that of fsetthile enientpassed last session imposed gr ea t towns, and praying that it might be m that the support of the poor might be made a national c harge, and that all kinds of property might be equally rated. ENCLOSING COMMONS. Mr. AGLIONBY gave notice that, on Thursday next, he should move for leave to introduce a Bill—notice of which he gave last sessioa— to facilitate the enclosure of COOIIIIOI I9 . LOANS TO IRELAND. On the motion of Mr. BROWN the following returns were ordered: —The account current of moneys which have passed between Great Britain and and since the union. Loans co ntracted by the Irish rel Govern ment, and the progress of the Irish national debt, from its commencement down to 1801 (the union). Subsequent loans contra cted by the Irish Exchequer until it was abolished, in 1817. How the debts con tracted before and after the union were disposed of, and the sources from which the interest was paid. The re venue and expenditure of Ireland, from the sth o f January 1841 to the sth of January 1846, inclusive. The taxes imposed in Great Britain and the taxes im posed in Ireland, and the amount of each tax during the last ten years. WINDOW DUTY. Captain PECHELL moved for a return o the amount of window duty assessed fo r the yeay 1845 for the twelve towns paying the largest amount, with the net amount of duty received for the same on the sth day of April 1846. —Agreed to. POOR-LAW COMMISSIONERS. en of Lord Palmerston Captain PECHELL also moved, on behalf of the Hon. Member for Weymou th, for copies of all r. BO NV corre spondence which had taken p lace between the Poor law Commissioners and the bo ard of guardians for Wey mouth.—Agreed to. toR tNhEeGT detentionE wishedT DETENTION :f OF I F el ot rhCne a 0 a ß tn N t d maize in the e port of Ancona, bought for English account, and in tended to be shipped for this country, and to inqui re what measures had been taken in consequence. Lord PALMERSTON stated that several represents !ions had been made to him on the subject, and he had issued instructions to the Consul upon the subject. Th e detention of the grain complai ned of did not arise from any act of His Holiness the Pope, as had been stated, but from the local authorities of the port of Ancona. WRECK OF THE lIIGiIFLYER. Dr. BOWItING wished to know whether the Govern ment had taken any steps in order to ascertain the truth of a rumour which had spread as to the capture and destruction by the natives of four persons who were supposed to have been cast ashore on the coast of Abyssinia? Lord PALMERSTON said, that he had caused in quiries to be made upon the subject, and the answer which he had received was, that after the most minute investigation into the circumstances, it was the opinion the persons employed to ma ke t he i nquiries, that the boat containingths four persons had been overtaken by NAVIGATION LAWS. Mr. RICARDO wished to know whether refined sugar was admissible into this country under the navi gation laws. Mr. GIBSON—The navigation laws, to which his Hon. Friend alluded, held that manufactured goods were to be considered the goods of the country in which they were manufactured. Mr. RICARDO did not think that an answer to his question. Mr. GIBSON would take the liberty of stating, on the part of Government, that he would answer more fully the question of his Hon. Friend at a future period. Mr. RICARDO gave notice that he should, on Monday, repeat his question. THE NAVAL SERVICE—PURSERS AND PAYMASTERS. Captain PECHELL said, that ho wished to ask the Secretary of the Admiralty a question. In the course of last session, and the session before, petitions had been presented from the pursers and paymasters in the navy, complaining that, notwithstanding the recommen dation of the commission appointed to inquire into this subject, the petitioners had not received any addition tc their half-pay. The petitioners had in one case surrendered 20 per cent., and in another 23 per cent. of their sea profits, in order that they might have a better half-pay. They had been told on the last occasion, that if they would forego their claims for that session the Govern ment would give them their favourable attention in the next session. Relying upon that promise, they had not pressed their claims, and he (Captain Pechell) wished now to know what steps had been taken to bring about some satisfactory arrangement? Mr. WARD said, that in accordance with the - recom mendation of the Commissioners appointed in 1341, one shilling per day would be added to the half•pay of these claimants in the present year. Captain PECHELL wished to say that he had received a communication from a paymaster placed on the six shilling list who had not been able to obtain the addition recommended by the Commissioners. RAILWAY ACCIDENTS. Colonel SIBTHORP gave notice, that if no more competent Member would bring in a Bill for the better regulation of railways, he should on an early day more for leave to bring in a Bill to compel railway companies to give ample compensation to the survivors of those persons who should have lost their lives by accidents on raijways. SUGAR IN BREWERIES. An HON. MEMBER asked if any objection would be urged by Government to the use of sugar in breweries for the purpose of colouring beer? The. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if his Hon. Friend exercised a little patience he would find that whets' She Bill came:before Committee there was-A.-alutta•erliierted having spec:lit reference to this matter. HER MAJESTY'S NAVY. Sir C. NAPIER wished to ask a question of the Hon. the Secretary of the Admiralty, but, as he had not given notice of it, he would not request an answer till Monday next. Last year it would be that 100 naval captains had been taken off the list, and he found that withi❑ a recent period 72 fresh ones han been added. Now, as it had been stated that the cap tains' list was to be reduced to 500, he wished to ask the Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Admiralty whe ther the list had been reduced below that number by so many, or whether this new introduction of names was an addition to the complete number ? Mr. WARD said he would give an answer on Monday. IRISH POOL-LAWS. Mr. P. SCROPE gave notice that„ in Committee on the Irish Poor-law Relief Bill, he would call the attention of the House to the expediency of extending to able bodied labourers the same right to relief which existed under the English law. He would also propose a clause empowering boards of guardian4to employ the able-bodied labourers on workhouse farms, and in reclaiming the waste lands. ADJOURNMENT OF THE lIOUSE. On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, it was agreed that the House, at its rising, do adjourn til Monday. SOUTH AUSTRALIA. Mr. HUTT moved for a return of all moneys received in England and in the colony for sales of lands in South Australia, or on account thereof; specifying (where practicable) the parties from whom received, and the lands purchased; also, for the expenditure of the said moneys, and the authorities for such expenditures; also, of all liabilities for balance of passage-money of emi grants; also, of the balances of the Land Fund, both in England and the colony, and where deposited; also, specifying the amount available to further emigration, and the reserve for other objects (the said returns to commence from the last accounts of the Land Fund pre sented to Parliament).—Agreed to. MILBANK PENITENTIARY. Mr. B. ESCOTT, in reference to the report which ho had drawn up, as one of the Milbank Penitentiary Commissioners, wished to call the attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir George Grey) to the matter in question. The Right Honourable Gentleman had refused to receive his report, differing as it did from the report of the other two Commissioners, but he expressed himself willing to receive the substance of it in the shape of a letter. He (Mr. B. Escott) objected to do so, and in order to be satisfied that he had acted right he had taken the advice of two eminent members of the bar. The first learned gentleman applied to was of opinion he had done perfectly right, but,:in order to be sure that he was right, he next took the opinion of Mr. Sergeant Manning. That opinion was confirmatory of the first. Und( r these circumstances he (Mr. Escott) mustpersevere in sending in the report. Mr. DUNCOMBE said that neither the House aor the public were in possession of the report twice sent and twice rejected by the punctilio of the Home Secretary. He should move that the report be brought up and laid upon the table.—(Hear, hear.) Sir GEORGE GREY said he was quite ashamed to delay the House by repeating the arguments he had al ready advanced respecting the practice adhered to in re ceiving reports of Commissioners who did not join in a common report. He did expect that the Hon. Member would have pat it in his power to have laid the document before the House verbatim et literatim, the same merely altering the commencement and the termination. He had merely to say, that no such document as had been moved for, was in his possession. Mr. B. Escott here rose, and placed a document in the bands of Sir George Grey, who threw it from him upon the table, and Mr. Escott retired. Mr. HUME said that it was a pity that the House should divide upon such a subject. The Hon. Gentle man must know that her Majesty's Government had pursued a certain course from time immemorial, and that they could not now depart from that course. The Hon. Gentleman could not blame them for not doing that which was not according to practice. The document should be read as a letter instead of being read as a report. Mr. O'CONNELL thought it unnecessary to divide the House upon such a subject. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE did not understand now in what light the Right Hon. Gentleman held the document of which he wa s i n p ossess ion. Sir GEORGE GREY said that he was in possession of a paper placed in his hands in a very unusual manner, and really, at the present moment, in the discharge of the duties of the office he held, and as a Member of that House, he had not as yet been able to read one word of it. Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE said that he should withdraw the motion, and bring it forward at some future period. Mr. B. ESCOTT assured the Right Hon. Gentleman that nothing was so far from his intention as to do anything disrespectful or out of the usual course. He was content to refer it to the highest legal authorities, and take their opinions upon it. The House would re member that the Right Hon. Gentleman gave it as a reason for not laying the paper before the House that he was not in possession of it, and it was that statement which induced him to act as he had done. The motion was then withdrawn. CHARITABLE TRUSTS. Mr. HUME wished to ask the Right Hon. Secret ar y for the Home Department a question, of which be had giyen notice. He wished to know wuother they were 1847. prepared to take measures this session to regulate the public charities. Sir GEORGE GREY stated that the question was already undtT the nmiirieration of the Lord Chancel:or. DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) ADVANCES BILL. On the order of the day for bringing up the report on this Bill being read, Lord CLEMENTS wished to call the attention of her Majesty's Government to the Irish charities which were at present lying dormant. He would name a few of these charities. There was the Irish Peasantry So ciety and the British and Irish Ladies' Society, both of which had received subscriptions to a very large amount. The British and IrishiLadies' Society had received the sum of 12,3001. from the subscriptions of 1822, when the last famine visited Ireland, There was another society which had received sub scriptions to a similar amount. There was also a handsome subscription collected in the :city of Dublin by a society, which afterwards dissolved itself, h-aving a large balance in the Bank of Ireland. Now, these funds could not be touched, unless by an Act of Parliament, and when they were called upon for ad vances to meet the destitution which prevailed in Ire land, he wished her Majesty's Government to to©k after the funds. One society, called the Repro ductive Society, had a large sum to their account. He would not at present call the attention of the House to the Destitute Persons' Bill, but he would say, that there were divers provisions in that Bill which would render it ineffectual, and still more difficult of management thanithe present system of public works. He had asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer last night what Govern ment intended to do to provide employment, and was informed that it was proposed to do so by the Labour Employment (Ireland) Bill. He did not know whether Government was aware of what would be required to carry out that measure. There were 2,050 electoral divisions in Ireland. They would also require a staff for each of these electoral divisions, which would be under the control of a central committee, of which the Lord Lieutenant was the head. He thought that was impracticable, and he would beg of her Majesty's Go vernment to reconsider that Bill. He gave the Govern ment full credit for sincerity, but he did not think this measure practicable. It would be necessary to form new districts throughout the land, and this would require some persons of considerable local information. He did not see that it would be possible for the Lord Lieutenant, with the machiaery of the present Bill, to come to a just decision. He had no objection to the names of Colonel Jones, and Mr. Redington, and Colonel M'Gregor being introduced as members of the board, but it would be impossible for them (were they giving every attention to the measure, and he had no doubt they would do so as far as in them lay) to superintend efficiently the working of an extensive measure of this kind. In answer to a question from Mr. WILLIA➢IS, in re ference to the way the funds would be advanced, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he could only repeat what he had stated before. The ad vances would be made from the Consolidated Fund 300,000/. was proposed now, and when more was re quired, he would come down to the House, and ask them for a vote. The money would be voted from time to time, as it was required. . . The report was then brought up and received. DESTITUTE RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. The order of the day for going into Committee upon the Destitute Relief (Ireland) Bill was then read. On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, Mr. HUTT rose and said that he was anxious to say a few words on the subject of the distress in Ireland. He entirely concurred with his Honourable Friend in lamenting that the Government should have adverted to the subject of emigration in somewhat disparaging terms, He lamented it the more, as he looked upon it as one—if not the only means —by which the country could be rescued from the terrible calamities which were impending over them.—(Hear.) There were in Ireland upward s of 1,500,000 heads of families, who maintained themselves on the verge of starvation, their wages varying from 2s. to 2s. 6d. per week, and a -small portion of potatoe land, whilst, in order to give them the coarsest and cheapest bread, it was necessary that they should have from 7s. to Bs. per week. Seven shillings were scarcely sufficient, and yet the whole rental of Ireland, which was barely ten millions, was barely enough to support them upon the grossest description of food. Even sup posing that every source of dncome was sunk, it would not give more than seven shillings per week to each of the labouring population of Ireland. The fact was, that it was utterly impossible for Ireland to meet the demand of its population, from the destruc tion of thepotatoe crop. Let them say what they might, or do what they might, a poor-law giving a right to out-door relief could never be carried into effect in Ire land—and for this reason, that the gross revenue from the soil would be utterly insufficient for the destitution which it would be called upon to relieve. The acreable production of England was four times as great as the acreable production of Ireland. Why then, he would ask, did this disparity exist? The soil of Ireland was not less fertile than the:soil of England, perhaps it was more so. It could not, therefore, be attributable to that cause. The reason he thought must be the indifferent system -of agriculture which existed in Ireland, and until an improvement took place in this respect, he was afraid that this disparity would still exist. The minute subdivision of the land in Ireland also presented insuperable obstacles to improvement. He found, by a report laid on the table of the House, that the whole extent of Ireland was cut up into small holdings of from one rood to ten acres. Now, he would ask what sub soiling could take place, what drainage could be made, or what rotation of crops could be put down under such a system ? When the land was thus cut up into those miserable shreds and patches, it was impossible to employ profit ably either capital or labour. They found that the farmers in England were more consolidated for carrying out improvements; but, in Ireland, the peasant culti vated his ground by himself and unaided. It required four labourers more, in Ireland, to raise the same pro duce that would be raised by one labourer in England. His plan was that there should be increased production of the soil, which could be done only by more skilful cultivation, which necessarily required that there should be some consolidation of the miserable holdings in Ire land. He knew there were many opposed to such a scheme, nor, he confessed, did he wish to see such ex tensive farms in Ireland as there were in this country. He would wish the farms there to be of the size of what would be called moderate farms in this country. But this plan would require the removal of cotters. Govern ment proposed two schemes—the first to reclaim the waste lands, the next to promote colonisation. The first, certainly, would be beneficial. Colonisation, carried on to a sufficient extent, would, by diminishing the demand for food at home, which certainly would change favour ably some of the present relations between the land and the occupier. There existed in the British colonies a considerable demand for labour; and he could say, from his own knowledge, that in the colony of South Aus tralia the demand for labour was at this moment intense. He could assure the House that in the mining districts there existed a demand for at least 5,000 heads of families and those dependent on them; in addition, they had a large territory in Polynesia, and he had no doubt that an equal number of labourers would be required there, as the occupants of that land were equally in want of assistance. He would not say what quantity of emigrants might be sent to Canada, and the regulations from the Colonial office; but of this fact he was quite aware, that there existed, both at home and abroad, im mense means of providing food for generations yet to come. Now then he came to the cost, and he was afraid that this was a question which they would be compelled to scrutinise very closely, what would be the cost then, of an extensive system of home and foreign colonisation to such an extent as would give a sensible lift to Ire land? The cost, he believed, to the Imperial Treasury would be just nothing at all. He was sure that the whole outlay would be repaid by the reclamation of waste lands, as well as from other sources. He had been one of the commissioners appointed by the Crown to manage the colonisation of South Australia, in which he was connected with a most worthy and phi losophic gentleman, Colonel Torrens. They had been the means of partly laying the foundation of an impor tant and prosperous colony. In order to establish this colony, they had carried out 15,000 persons, and in the course of a short time they had converted a forest and a wilderness into the abode of an industrious and thriving population.—(llear, hear.) They had been able not only to meet all their expenses, but had realised 85,000/. The Government at the time granted 80,0001. for the security of the colonial revenue. This sum had been since adopted by the Colonial Govern ment, and had been since liquidated by the revenue of the colony. With such facts before the House, why should not the same successful experiment be repeated elsewhere ?--(Hear, hear.) In considering the question of relieving the people, the House and the Government should endeavour to carry out a systematic scheme of colonisation on the principle which had been found so successful in South Australia.—(Hear, hear.) That unless we can get the means of feeding the popula tion of Ireland from the soil, Ireland must continue to be supported out of the purse of England and Scotland. by means of the importation of corn. He believed the people of this country to be as liberal and as generous as any other people under the sun ; but he knew full well that there were limits to their generosity, and he was convinced that if the Government of this country should find it necessary to apply again to Parliament for another grant they would find them in a state of alarm and terror. He did, therefore, entreat her Majesty's Government seriously to consider the question of emi• gration, which he considered had been too lightly weighed. He believed it to he the only means by which, in the dreadful and unparalleled distress, they would be enabled to rescue the property of Great Britain and Ire land from confiscation, and the people from the horrors of famine. Sir GEORGE GREY desired to bring back the House to the original question under discussion, which was with refer ence to a Bill framed in such a way as the Government had thought right to meet the existing, the pressing, the daily dis tress which was now pervading the country. He hoped, there fore, the House would be allowed to go on with the considera tion of the Bill. Mr. STAF F ORD O'BRIEN (who was very indistinctly heard) wished to press upon the House a proposition, for which no Act of Parliament was necessary—for the Poor-law Com missioners possessed already full powers to carry it into effect, and would do so, if they received proper instructions. He pro, posed to make a general electoral division of the town lands, consulting not only the population and fhe extent of the teat. tory, but also the space which each indlO2ival pro prietor should have on the property 13f such town land. He would not go into the whole aspect or political character of centralisation, but if there was a country less fitted than at2s other for centralisation, it was Irels,nd. He now called upon the House to giyp him its attention while he arraigned the two great classes; of Ireland against each other. They were called i qpon to vote away milli ons f or th e re li ef o f t h e di stress n that country, He would not say whether that was right or whe ther it was wrong, but the prorerecurring, never-ending ques ticiu wits, when they to do with the landlords of Ireland? There were conti..ual accounts of a most different description brought forward in that House. On one hand they were met by cases of the greatest cruelty and selfishness, and on the other by inetances of tre greatest self-denial, and the most general philanthropy. The question they had to consider, after they had passed these laws, and voted them millions, Val what they were to do with the Irish landlords. He would have had sone. difficulty in answering this ques tion, if he did no t know, from his own knowledge, that the Irish landlords a ere divided into two classes. There were some of them who still clung to the most disgracefu l p ile ' tice of their class. Th ere were others of them who looked for:, ward to a better state o f thi ngs , an d w h o wer e ready to do se in their power to accomplish such an object. That Ho use . was called upon to act with strict impartiality, and ;II to interfere more than was actually necessary; e they were called upon to show, by expressed, as to those who pushed the rights of property 'Os to the extremest limits, and those who discharged their duti_o There could be no just objection to his plan, it would be . : i r e the benefit of Ireland, and yet the Irish party were not lune places. He had always found that those who ought to the last them when a measure of this kind was prepared Were th the opinions th to do so.—( Hear, hear.) Now it 'was proposed to levy e ; absentee-tax upon Ireland. Whatever might be the tr r o of that tax, he must be allowed to say that at present it ill-timed. A measure was before them for facilitating He transference of incumbered estates, and they were d oin g! , they could to induce English capitalists to invest their Isee' e e in Irish land, and yet what were the inducements held e e " , f , the Irish party. Why, said they, "We will do everyt bin gee heartily W'r„ facilitate the transfer of the land, and we most you success with it when you get it, but then you , , Wh at nut s exile to your own land or pay an absentee-tax. Ned foolish policy was this? Why not let the English eel tee tee invest his money first, and then come down upon him twee, is absentee-tax. Now, what he wanted the House to do was draw a distinction between the landlord who did -his etttl',„ o the landlord who did not—to pass such a law that all the le of lands should share in due and proper proportions the bu s maintaining the poor. What had been the whole tenor of debates this session. No difference had been made bee,ol, free-trader and protectionist, or Whig ,and ipg The whole course had turned upon one question be tha t upon the rights and duties of town lands, and in settlingpae question he maintained that it was unfair to press headi l y u es tate the landlord, who did all in his power to improve In s , ets to without calling upon the landlord who neglected his es- 0 se bear an equal burden.—(Hear, hear.) Let them take ns eer illustration of his position England and Ireland, and e° them as two large towns. England was prosperottst.ol flourishing—lreland was unhappy and destitute ; and ' w ith unfair of Ireland, the English people said, to vest theinoe the consequences of the misdeed of Ireland. It was Ire, i s ee, they said, to call upon them to relieve the sufferings of because in times gone by she had neglected to inaprovebeeate dition, and allowed opportunities for becomin was rosercere 0 happy too, to slip by her.—( Hear, hear;) He not t to , say that these charges against Ireland were without founds Ire' nor had he ever attempted to deny that the landlords bad Ireland had very much to answer for, but whether theliarj done their duty or had not, if they took England and Ir ; separately, they must confess that tk e w h o le force ° d ot debates during the present session had resulted into ae n v townland question. The Right Hon. Gentleman be d i e " - 0. 11 stantly said to the landlords of Ireland, " Help your se r osed The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth inn bt. the same upon them, and not for the first time, the other pig we But they had also said if we make you help your° tint make you help your neighbours also. All he asked sie e re e they should separate the good from the bad landlords. t ble° were many landlords in Ireland who wished to gr' s eyieg with the people, and to lend their best exertions to cart Ass out the most comprehensive measures of benefit. ni s na' by strengthening the hands of the goode„t and lords that they would be able to carry "". t be establish such beneficial laws.—(Hear.) It se n ; that well known to any one acquainted with the Irish pee' ese mere law of itself, as passed by that House, had little P°l on the people of Ireland. To remove them from that /T e o allegiance should be the duty of all who took upon then :: or to direct the affairs of the country, whether in that Il e koins! acting in their own country as guardians. From h is f e el , ledge of Ireland, and his acquaintance with t he w! ings and character of the people, and from the g o ledge he possessed of this country, he would repea t wee; that these laws could not operate as efficiently as the e, sad he had devised. Moral influences, ancestral influee e e a gile aristocratic influences, had more power over the Irise n e rin• than any law passed by that country. Seeing a motion t i e itr bility on the other side, he must explain that aristoers 0 t he fluence in Ireland had nothing to do with rank. It ' r a id ble influence of the landlord over his tenantry when h e ete odee duty. All he stated was to show the necessity he e"'" bode for of making a distinction between the good and the bad on t he lord. If they preserved the present system, you inflie`.. Ile good landlord the punishment due to the bad repeated that this distinction was warranted, for thee . 1 0 with of the different classes was known to all those fauu e 0 001 the Ireland. It was not, perhaps, known to that House 0 04 acts of kindness which the recent circumstances of the e dist ere called forth between landlord and tenant. How mat r , bed bailees had been crushed, how many unlawful charge, wore+ been reclaimed, how many evils had been soothed, jet e t udes how mach of kindness, and how much of heartfelt gil l rr y to —(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances,. he was I :ebel% see on the part of Government a desire, instead of d i le din' the area of territorial division to increase: it by the erect er e e sions proposed. It was not his intention then to en bear/ the discussion of the Labour Rate Act—(He ar ' —but it was admitted to be, pro t ant° '•ll s lity. Now that Act was going on ati ; 033 , be another Act was coming in, which was the reason : :ree called the attention of the House to both Bills. The utter ment said they were determined to proceed landloreistoon w ith t ot her rate instead of the electoral rate, they would inju re ra t, ip than serve the country. He would oppose to its every stage, with all the pertinacity which the forr e e ° ipot esi House permitted, the extension of taxation- 410 ' 4 not say dangerous, unjust, but fatal measures s on t h° the ut f t he Mr. LABOUCHERE said he should not tre e sla' ont otee , attention of the House, now that it was going kit e " Gen tlero. but considering the importance of what the fiesuiew bile m ake had said, that it was due to the House to been tions before the Speaker left the Chairs t . n. It had fl ues to by the Hon. Gentleman was not a new by those to when urged upon his (Mr. Labouchere) atten tion an d resPe C ht ; he was bound to pay the greatest deference born t namely, landed proprietors, magistrate.. and l U"' e ar b e c , ...arnment ; .1.. be. beard, the more neCe.- c iplo considered it to weigh carefully the very important In!? was involved in this question, and the more necessary for Government to proceed with caution in deb be ating upon it. Still they felt they would 10 , 0 0! doing their duty to the people of Ireland, if they did not nd eider this question. The Hon. Gentleman had put l e . r :iet ' this principle more clearly and strongly than it had ever to The question raised been expressed. His proposition was simply this- -t eieslt provide for the distresses of Ireland it was necessary te . , " , e ) not with committees, but with individuals.—(Heare e obe It was admitted by deputations which he had received , te s o ter proprietors were willing to contribute largely, and t.„° icy, into the system of electoral districts, and thus to giv e e we the ment to a considerable extent ; but they would do so mol l ate condition of being allowed to employ those to ;Oh There a , to they gave labour on their own estates. certainly, great objections to that ; they oaeuer d e re him then, and he urged them ; but he wot ti 0,00 now repeat them. What was the fact ? There we tn ie electoral districts in Ireland, occupying from ten se ffiele °t , 0 thousand acres each, which certainly was an exten t ,„ 0 5ed to induce co-operation for good. The questionePewleid yo, deal with private property—Hon. Gentlemen sa i r is eing ° r e deprive the proprietors in Leland of all motives 0 " o f tb of their own property, and providing for the distressese the; own poor. He did think it certainly wrong t °lll e s epoe, f le divisions so large as to prevent th e i r t a ki ng ca re o ft o e ter to g their estates. But then to r e s t r i c t th e principles o f tiSo say, that they should enforce upon them the dote t e nt r t care of any section of poo r , mere ly ' I. Ol t fact of their being resident i n a ce rtain, in this was not the principle of an y poor-We, ' world with which he was acquainted. It certainly " e etie , t o r i, principle of the law of England. It belonged to "°, " 4 fee de l and was merely a remnant of ser fd om an d a pr i n ciple „ ism. It was to him a great o bj ect i on th a t it to l es evb . ,,. principle, and such a principle as he considered to "194 1 ' inapplicable to Ireland or t o E ng l an d 'i n t h e Year iee ted e e ( Hear, hear.) But even if t h e pr i nc i p l e were ad sew , would be found that it would b e utter l y i mprac ticable vo ge out the details. If they had 60,000 town lands to n d if they had separate machinery far each of these, or sul they had only one-half or even one-fourth of those lt: l :eget utterly and absolutely impracticable to carry it 113 1. t But he would not go into that, as he held t..teobls' arguments he had already gated were utterly unans w olt He would take the case of a man possessed of large P all re and he would suppose him to be called upon to suePe r e e t se", poor who might be l oca t e d on hi s l an d , h e as k e d, was 7,1 d be a principle wholly in a d m i ss ibl e ? H e h e ld t h at it wee ore discouragement to th e i mprovement of propert y, all' o ol produce in many cas es , monstrous i n j ust i ce. He rant „ n e e :, that the plan o f t h e H on. G entleman was utter!) eee ticable in the case of towns. The principle of diesetileS townlands would thr ow an i n t o l era bl e b ur d en onto me s- plo"„i villages. When he came, therefore, to the conclusle% he did, he assured the Honourable Gentleman that it e ttee without great deliberation and examination of the ET, f_ A lfr was not walnut consulting the most intelligent o P l - der e were able to form an opinion, and considering them e eu e e ete e °' crowded state of the population, as well as the g fs e e e " t o st tion of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He held then,o townland, as the unit of taxation, would work erb e P monstrous injustice, for while some proprietors amok: . t hine' tirely exempted from bu r d ens w hi c h o f r i g h t belonged '° not ° others would be crushed by the w e i g ht o f w h at t h e y wer.‘ , justice entitled to bear.—( Hear, hear. ) Mr. S. O'BRIEN observed that he never bald the lands should be the unit of taxation. stiP P f Mr. LABOUCHERE said the' if they left the y f t„ of electoral districts, the next lower division tobet principle, come, as the unit el taxation, was townlands; principle, he asserted, was not applicable to a free Pl!' e l", to a population in a state of serfdom. It was a fell.„0, ciple, anti one which he never could recognise or stePtee efi ( Hoar, hear.) He thought the Hon. Gentleman e i l t , oeff much underrated the advantage of electoral elie tr e e etsg o townlands in another point of view, namely, the Wee • co-operation and mutual support. The Honourab,' spe) tleman himself might be in a condition t e ° „ e cite re j of this from his own experience, but he (Mr, Lae: t Lor i could state that it had been productive of the gres t- d Int The relief committees which had been established he fin e the means of bringing those together who never met be im ...A P : l ( Hear, hear.) Th e pr i est an d the Protestant reeeeleree landlord, the tenant, an d th e cess-payer—men of tee , ' creeds, and of different politics, were brought to act wii tob re ei r i to know one another, to appreciate one ano ther, and procate the advantages of mutual assistance.—(le ar ns: e j, He saw that during th e l as t autumn, and De r", opinion that it h a d t en d e d very muc h to the tbe 4 ee vantage of Ireland. He thceight, therefore, t i e, be d principle of working by commun it ies, i nstea d o f by tewe'etifeei would in the present me asure b e muc h t h e prefers 041 that it would be the most effective way to support to assist the Government, and to carry out that neeeee' e wbj 4b e e would require the aid of them all to realise the beee'sit ld was intended by it. Theo, advantages he believed w e e t ie tee suit from the divisiee into electoral districts. He w ° O O, then go into the pestion, whether electoral district° orotoblo were preferable but he oould assure the o°° Gentleman, that ' her Majesty's Government would aPPr ea Th e consideration of the subject with the greatest care.4o toe question, howev e r, was not w h et h er they wouldt electoral division s larger, but whether they would in 0 a smaller—whether they should proceed by e l ec toral distrliederd by townlands. He had given his reasons why h e °o°l A te° the former the preferable mode, and he believed the t re s -ere evil would result UK was not adopted, If any gentian _w_nr, again disposed to raise the question, he would have an ~rl O tunity of dobe g at the A fter a few words o rd on s ianfuextuprlesnoacteiaosoionfr;embult i h r o . h: T e: t i r Meantime, the Bill would be allowed to proceed. ~0010 O'BRIEN, al ° Pe Mr. MORE O'FERRAL believed that th e subject w ed p 1 which called for the most deliberate consideration from Government, Les Government, and one on which English Members ld we mr. ries liarly fitted to give an opinion. His Hon. perfectly distinet—the division into electoral districts e e ' r e n , bouchere) appeared to him to confound two Errand plieable to the Poor-rate Act of last session, and to the P to posed Poor-law. He (Mr. F. Malik) was opposed landlords of Ireland when they made the application yew. 4 'l 311 4 Ilia wawa was,. becaun thi s - which we . A i