The Sun. — London, England, 1840-01-31 00:00:00

1 EN LNG EDITION. with which he was himself connected, from the general charge brought against it, and to show that it had a claim for having effected legal improvements in the country. He wished' for a few moments to detain them while he stated what had been done in the way of amendment of the criminal law of this country. This w as -no mean subject, nor one of little moment or influ duce to the people of the country. In 1808 the subject was taken up by the Whig party, then in opposition, and it fell into the powerful hands of a party as capable as any that ever existcd to do justice to it, he aliteled to Sir Samuel Romilly, who then first commenced his career as an amender of the Criminal Law, and for ten years struggled against the whole force of the minority of that day, but who ended that career with almost as little effcct as when he began it.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In 1819, he (Samuel Romilly) being no more, Sir James Mackintosh stepped into his shoes, and moved for a Com nattee on the Criminal Law, which was resisted by Lord C astlereagh, but carried ; and in 1820 he brought in six Bills, the principles of whch were rejected. So in 1821 a Bill to amend the Criminal Law (so averse were the Tories) was thrown out. In 1823 Sir James proposed resolutions abolishing capital punishments in certain cases. Sir Robert Peel opposed them. On the understanding that the subject should be taken up by the Government, Sir James then gave up his efforts in the cause, and then Sir Robert Peel brought in Bills for abolish ing capital pu n i s h men ts, in fift een cases , w hi c h , how ever, had tco much of the shadow and to o little of the substance; and thus Sir Robert "kept the word of promise to the ear, and broke it to the hope." In 1 826, the Right Hon. Baronet brought in some mea sures, for which he bad been too highly praised. For the c onsolidation of certain obsolete laws, he (Mr. Maule) gave him some credit. As to abolishing capital punish ments, he gave the Right Hon. Baronet none ; for all he had done was to increase the sum which rendered stealing in a dwelling-house capital, from 405. to 50/. Now, what had the Liberal party done ?—( Hear, hear.) In 1832, abolished capital punishments in horse-stealing, sheep stealing, and other cases ; in 1833, for return ing from transportation ; in 1835, for stealing in the Post-office ; and, in 1837, the Noble Lo-d (J. Russell) effected that change in the criminal law, which bad cast so much honour on his friends, abolishing capital punish ments, save in some few cases. In the ten years to 1818, the convictions were 1, 9 54, executions 97 ; to 1828, convic victions 1,165, executions 59; to 1838, convictions 116, executions only 6.—( Hear, hear.) It would be beneficial to the country, that Hon. Gentlemen opposite had at last (long " willing to wound, and yet afraid to strike") cone forward r to b r i ng the question between party and party. alike ro his (M q r. Maule's) part, he was content to a pp eal to the present and the past. It remained to be seen whether to the past, the Conservation side would success fully appeal ; he believed that the people of this country would much rather condemn them for the past than trust them for the future..—(Hear, hear,) Lord G. SOMERSET wished to know the date of the co mmunication from the Lord Lieutenant who, the Hon. Member had stated, had agreed to the appointment of Mr. Frost to the Magistracy. Mr. FOX MAULE with some warmth replied, it Was a confidential communication in answer to one equally confid ent i a l . The date was February 13. Would Noble Lord take this upon his (Mr. Maule's) word:? Lord G. SOMERSET wished the Hon. Member to understand that his only reason for asking was to ascertain that it could not have been his father, the late Lord Lieu tenant of the county.—( Hear.) Mr. F. MAULE was happy to understand that. The Lord Lieutenant was Mr Hanbury Leigh.—(Hear.) Mr. LIDDELL w i shed to take a part in this debate, that he might, face to face, vindicate the reproaches which he had felt it his duty to throw upon the Ministry in the provinces. The arguments on the other side, of divi sion in the Conservative camp, from the differences about Privilege, were the most absurd. He would just explain the grounds of his vote on that question.—(A laugh and cries of " No, no.") He contended that he was quite in order. He had voted against the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, because the Right Hon. Baronet's rea soning, though unanswerable, led to inj us ti ce an d oppres sion. Bat this slight difference would never interrupt the general harmony and union of the party. Now the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule) had accused him (Mr. L.) of making the Poor -l aw th e pretext f or i n fl ammatoryharangues; e had charged him with encouraging Chartism, and being an i ncendiary.—(Mr. F. Maule—" Not in the least.") Well, if the Hon. Gentleman had not gone so far, he had at least imputed to him improper violence on the subject. Now in the northern counties the Poor-law had never been required, and had been unjustly forced upon the people. He had never used a word in addressing public meetings which he was not ready to justify in that House. He had never promised to vote for the repeal of the whole Bill, but Only of its more stringent provisions, by which he could assure the House that the poor had been ridden with a hard hand.—( Hear.) He could tell them that the Poor-laws would be unpopular, as long as they permitted the laws of the nation to be violated in the case of illegitimate chile dren, where the fathers that had begotten them were re lieved from the burden of their support. He would say that the particular observations that were attributed to him, and repeated in public, were made use of for the purpose of distorting the truth of what he said, and rendering him unpopular in that House. He never made use of the words which were imputed to him ; and for the truth of what he said, he begged to refer them to the reports which appeared in the Parliamentary Papers. He did not deny the expressions of dissatisfaction which he had made use of with regard to the causes which be thought had increased Chartism, and which he conceived was engendered by the hostility which was naturally felt against the Poor laws. He well recollected the course of proceedings which took place during the pi ogress of the Reform Bill—when Lard Grey retired from the helm of affairs—the well known cry of " the pressure from without" was then made use of. Was it then to be wondered at, when the minds of the people were so much excited, they would not confidently rely upon the virtue of that sentiment which was uttered from such high authority, and continue increasing that pressure from without, with a full and cutifident reliance that their wishes would be granted ulti mately, by their continued agitation. He ascribed the rapid increase of Chartism to this cause which of itself originated in the Birmingham Political Union. He looked over that celebrated petition presented to the House last year, which was signed by 12,000 individuals, and he could not find in the five points which they urged on the attention of that House that one word was uttered on the subject of the Poor-laws.— ( Hear, hear.) It was not alluded to either directly or indirectly. The feelings which were expressed in that petition, which the Government, by their conduct, had Created by permitting that unnatural state of excitement to prevail, were doomed to be disappointed. And Govern ment may well deplore the events which, in consequence, had taken place. The House must deplore the course of Proceedings which could cause such unfortunate results. He did not charge the Government with a want of energy in instituting proceedings to repress the Chartist outbreaks, but he did c h arge t h e G overnment of her Majesty with having encouraged a long course of political agitation, which ultimately ended in disappointment to the parties themselves, and which disappointment found refuge in Chartism.—( Hear, hear.) If the Government was not prepared to concede these points which had been urged at 1 those public meetings, why did they not take every means to di scountenance them at once ? Here they find that one AHon. Gentleman, a member of the Government, the Judge dvocate -General, was of opinion that the Ballot ought be conceded. Again they find th at t h e S ecretary at War was an advocate for the Ballot and the Extension of the Suffrage. When they saw those changes exist in the opinions of the Ministers, what could they or the country expect but false and delusive hopes ? What confidence then could be placed in a Government who depend for their existence upon the chance and minute majorities Which th ey m i ght obtain upon the general question, are: took for their support to many individuals who are well known to have strong opinions upon subjects that must lead to the overthrow of the monarchy in this country ? The Government called for the confidence of this House— he would tell the present Government that they never had the confidence of the Representatives of Great Britain, and if they deducted from their supporters the Members w hich were returned from the sister kingdom they would find themselves in a great minority.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from the Irish Members.) But what was the result of such a state of things? That the Govern ment of her Majesty were actually controlled by an Irish ma jority.—(Hear, hear.) What would be the prac tical result of all this ? Was it to be supposed that the public would be satisfied at being governed in this manner—or how could that House refrain under such circumstances from bringing forward a motion of want of confidence in the Ministers? And bow was that Irish ma jority constructed ? Was it not headed by an Hon. Gen tleman opposite, the Member for Dublin, who, up to this noment, if the Tories should come into power, dares to threaten that Government with summoning, he could not say how many thousand men, to rise up at his beck, and by such power to carry the Repeal of the Union ? If her Majesty should have the courage to change her Govern ment, such would appear to be the happy result of the present unfortunate condition of things. He would say that that Government was distasteful to the people, and he would ask whether it would be more agreeable to have England governed by an Irish majority, or to have Ireland governed by an English majority ? He begged to ask the Roman Catholic Members from Ireland, was it not by reason o f the votes of an English majority they owed their seats in that House ? W as i t not an E nglish majority that t:arried the Catholic R e li e f Bill ?—( Hear, and laughter.) tie was one of those, he did not hesitate to say, who had voted for that measure, but he could not then help admitting he Lad been bitterly disappointed in its results. He thought the conduct pursued by t h e N o b le Duke and the Hu ng Baronet the Member for Tamworth, who at that ti me held the reins of Government, was a full guarantee that equal justice would be done to the country.—( Hear, defined by raising Roman Catholics to an ascendancy W ith reference to what the Hon. Gentlema n the Secre tary at W ar sa id , w h o h e was sorry to see was not then his pla ce , b ut nevert h e l ess t h ere was one port i on of the 'P ooch which he delivered yesterday evening, and which he had that day seen reported in the public papers with surprise and astonishment. It pleased that gentleman to talk of th e f i erce and intolerant bigotry of the followers of e Right Hon. Baronet who sat at this side of the House, and that t h e doctrines inculcated from the pulpit were th enand of s uc h a description as would stain with disgrace proceeding s upon the hus!ings. Such was the lan guage which a Mi n i ster o f the Crown thought proper to make use of aga i nst t h e Cl ergy of the Esta bli s h e d Church.__( Hea r , h ear. ) He thotieht that such narn anguag e j ust i f i ed him in calling upon that' Government to e that clergyman or that pulpit, from whence Rica expression s came. They indeed asked for the con d of the country, and complained of not receiving the support of the Gentlemen on this side, and at the same time in public they dared to make use of such lan- Veag° as this. H o hoped, however, that the Hon. Mettl r would be able to adduce instances to justify such tan- . guage. Among the many points which had been brought forward to support their cause—it was not his pleasure to dwell at length on them—but there was one point which be t wholeought of ydver great importance, and upon which empire epended. He could not help stating """w ee5e5ee5ee.,..........._ that the Government had brought them into the most satisfactory situation regarding it. He alluded to the question of Finance; the Prime Minister in his place al lowed all the inferences that could be drawn from its un satisfactory state—in fact, that the finances were in a very bad condition, and he could hold out no hopes towards their improvement but such as were vague and unsatisfactory. It was perfectly true that it was a popular measure to give cheap letters to all. He alluded to the great reduction that was made in the postage—but the question was this, who were responsible for the National Debt ? and it would then be a consideration whether the Queen could afford to make such a sacrifice as the present low rate of postage must cause. He could not therefore help thinking that her Majesty's Ministers had a great deal to answer for for the present low state of the finances. If he wanted an addi tional reason for refusing them his vote on this occasion he would find it in such an act. He could not but lament the unfortunate condition in which her Majesty's Government had fallen into. He was well accustomed to bear them give expression to high-flown sentiments of liberty. They have often toasted the memories of those—the illustrious ancestors of the Noble Lord, who stained the scaffold with their blood. However the loyalty of the Gentlemen at his side of the House might be questioned, the Crown would never want friends when it had the aristocracy of England and the Conservatives of that House, who were ready to defend its rights, net only with their arms, but with the best blood that filled their veins. Some errors might indeed have been imputed to the Duke of Wel'ing ton and the Right Hon. Bart., who was the recognized leader of that side of the House ; but he would appeal is the growing confidence of the entire country in their vindication; but eve* if they had errors be would still sup port them, and would never withdraw his allegiance from them. He would conclude by making a quotation from one of the greatest philosophers that ever lived— " Menem mehercule cum Platoni Errare quam cum his agere." Captain PECHELL rose and said the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Pembroke, who, he was sorry to see, was not then in his place, seemed to him (Capt. P.) totally insensible to the associations which had existed between him and his former colleagues in office, when he did not scruple to attach to them the monstrous abuses of bringing their political prejudices into the Naval Depart ments. He (Captain P.) was prepared to show that the statements which the Right Hon. Baronet so coolly and so solemnly brought forward were not borne out by the facts. He could not but feel very poignantly on this oc casion, as it affected the service to which he had the honour of belonging. He was sorry to say that the Right Hon. Baronet had endeavoured to give that service a severe wound. But be (Capt. P.) thought that the Right Hon. Baronet had been guilty of the most unfair and un just attack upon the Ministry.—( Hear, hear.) He (the Right Honourable Baronet) said boldly, that " ser vices upon the quarter-deck were but secondary to services on the hustings, and he enumerated a list of gallant Officers, who, he stated were placed from half pay to command since the year 1837. The Right Hon. Baronet was not correct in such a statement. The first officer he alluded to, viz. Admiral Ommanney, no sooner took the command at Lisbon than he was assailed in the most unmeasured terms by those who advocated the same cause as the Right Hon. Bart. They asserted that he abused the power which had been given to him, by insulting the Queen Dowager. In consequence of such attacks he immediately instituted proceedings against those parties, and he (Captain Pechell) hoped that the power of the law would show that such insinuations were undeserved, and that no such feeling cf . uld exist in the breast of a British officer. The next officer alluded to was Lord Clarence Paget who stood a candidate for Southampton. When he stood he was em ployed in the service in the West Indies, and so far from being appointed only on that occasion he had some time previously the command of a ship of war on the West India station. Another officer who was alluded to com manded a ship in Falmouth, and had long before received his appointment. At that period there could be no motive for giving Captain Plumridge hissappointment, for at that time he had nothing at all to do with the representation of Falmouth. It was also alleged that Sir James Gordon was forced away from his position to make room for an other gallant officer—that was an assertion that should be contradicted, as it would reflect great disgrace upon the Admiralty if it were true. Sir James Gordon was an officer of high and honourable character, who was always ready to act when a gallant deed was to be performed. He was appointed to the Dock-yard at Chatham, but he was at the same time told that such appointment would be of a limited nature, and that a contingency might arise which would cause his removal. Capt. Clavell was pro moted to the place, and Sir James Gordon was removed, on being promoted to his flag. Now those were very grave assertions which had been made, and it would be unfair to allow them to go abroad without a direct con tradiction. Sir James Gordon was now in the Admiralty, in its civil employ on the south-eastern coast of this country. He (Capt. Pechell) could not but think that those attacks were quite unworthy of the Right Hon. Baronet who asked why the same rule should not have been applied to the Navy as well as to the Army ; but he (Captain Pechell) called upon them to produce a case where an officer on half-pay ever suffered himself to remain in a .company where speeches insulting to the Sovereign were made ?—( Cheers.) He called upon them to prodnce a Naval Officer on full or half-pay who ever was reproved for being in the company of those who uttered such disgraceful and insulting lan guage as had been lately reported ?—( Hear, hear.) What did the Right Hon. Baronet mean by applying the same rule to the Navy as to the Army? Captain Plum ridge certainly contested the borough of Falmouth, but he believed that an officer in that House, whose vote would most probably be recorded in favour of this motion, had, at the head of his regiment, con ested the borough of Kinsale, and yet had received no rebuff :from the Right Hon. Baronet. He believed that there was not an in stance on record—an instance of a naval officer receiving a reproof for keeping improper company, and he would venture to say that no naval officer would so commit himself by quietly suffering slanderous language towaralp his So vereign to be employed in his presence.—(Cheering.) He would now allude to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Droitwich last night, and from the Hon. Member for Northumberland this evening, who had eels tainly gone rather near the wind in regard to language used from the pulpit, in what he had stated. He would state a transaction which had taken place in a town not more than 50 miles from the metropolis, which was the site of a Royal Palace. At a meeting at which the Hon. Ba.onet, his colleague, had attended, at which the Hon. Members for Lymington, for Aylesbury, and the Hon. and Gallant Officer, the Member for Honiton, were pre sent, a Rev. Gentleman had stated in answer to the toast of Church and State— Mr. LIDDELL—Not from the pulpit.—( A laugh.) Captain PECHELL said that what he was about to state was more in relation to what fell from the Hon. Member for Droitwich last evening, who had denied that such things had been agitated as the appointment of Ca tholic Privy Councillors. The Rev. Gentleman, who ap peared to be the grand star of the evening, stated that he would refer to the manner in which Government patronage had been distributed, and that not on the narrow principle of pelf and party, but on the broad principle of Church and State. The place of Mr. Wood, who was a firm adherent of the Church of England, had become vacant at the Ad miralty, and had been filled up by Mr. More O'Ferrall, Catholic.—( Cheers.) The Rev. Divine,:in another part, had said that appointments made vacant by the removal of members of the Church of England had been filled up by Catholics. Mr. More O'Ferrall had vacated his office at the Treasury, which had been filled up by the appoint ment of Mr. Wyse, a Roman Catholic. The Rev. Di vine had then gone on to state who M:. Wyse was ; but that gentleman was well known in the House. The Rev. Gentleman was the Rev. J. S. Anderson, Chaplain to her Majesty, and he understood it had since been pub lished in a cheap form. He was clearly of opinion that the attack would signally fail. The country was not pre pared to coincide with a speech said to be delivered at Canterbury by a Member of this House—( Cheers)—and he believed it was for the interests of Ireland and the be nefit of the country that this proposition should be carried. He sincerely and cordially joined in opposing the motion, and he was sure he would be in a very considerable make rity.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") Mr. LA SC ELLES admitted the importance of this motion. He thought that, looking at the state of the country, those who supported it incurred great responsi bility, and therefore he should state why he had withheld his confidence from her Majesty's Government, and why he entertained the most confident expectation that the Right Hon. Baronet would be able to found a very firm Government in their place. He made no charge against them of promoting Chartism. The speech of the Noble Lord might have been misunderstood, and he acquitted him of any evil intention ; yet if his speech was open to misconstruction, that was only a reason why other Members of the Cabinet should abstain from the use of language as dangerous, and as liable to misconstruction. He had listened to the speech of the Hon. Member for Edin burgh, last night, with considerable pain. He thought it cruel and unfair to the Chartists, whose minds were in flamed, that he should take that opportunity of coming down to the House with a dissertation on the blessings of agitation.-_( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) When he said that the abolition of slavery, and various other good measures had been obtained by agitation, what would be the natural inference the Chartists would draw. They would say that their objects were equally praise worthy, and that it only required time and agitation to obtain them. But if that were not a sufficient ground for giving his vote in favour of this motion, he would refer to the speech of the Noble Lord, the Member for Northum. berland, who stated that at the end of last Session, the Cabinet felt they were so weak, by all their most respect able friends dropping from them—that they felt the necessity of strengthening themselves by the introduc tion of new men ; and on the speeches of those who had been introduced by that re-constructio n he founded his r eason f or vot i ng i n f avour of this motion. He had looked at the dangers of the country and at the means of averting them, and he did not find those means to exist in the present Government. The speech of the Hon. Member for Edinburgh had adverted to the topic of religion, and had charged it upon that party, for from that speech one would imagine that it was his (Lord L.'s) side of the House that was put on its defence.—(Cheers from the Opposition, answered by counter cheers from the Ministerial side of the House.) He felt, as affecting Ireland, that he would never be a party to any measure which should in any tray interfere with the extension of religious freedom to all alike.— ( Loud cheers.) He would not allow for one moment such a question to be brought forward—( Continued cheer ing)—but he would not make the principle of democracy march through the land under the garb of religious tole ration ; and it was in support of those principles the Hon ourable and Learned Gentleman wielded the power of the Catholic population. It was to attain such objects as the extension of the Franchise and various others which the Government were pledged to oppose. But he would say that the Government only opposed a mock resistance to those measures when they caressed one of those who who supported them most. There was one other circum stance to which he would allude. He hoped that in all their conflicts in that House they would keep out of sight the person of the Sovereign. It was quite true that the THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, J 31, 1840. proceedings of last year had brought the person of the So vereign perhaps rather too prominently forward in the po litical conflict. He said that nothing could be more dangerous, or contrary to all their feelings of loyalty than thus to involve the authority of the Sovereign, and no thing could be more contrary to all constitutional maxims than to engage the Crown personally in their discussions. He had been very anxious to state the grounds of the vote which he was about to give. He thought the present Go vernment was not in a position effectually to administer the affairs of the country. He did not mean to blame them on this score—they were so opposed by the House of Lords—(Cheers) —and by the educated classes—( Cries of " No, no," and cheer,)—that their hands were absolutely tied—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—and they were in capable of carrying out those measures of progressive reform which the Right Hon. Baronet would be able and willing to carry. Mr. HANDLEY would not trespass long on the House. The Honourable Baronet who brought for ward this motion, had said he thought it his duty to give his reasons for having no coalidence in the Government, but he ought to have gone farther. He insisted not only on the removal of Ministers, but on the accession of Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and it was there fore his duty to show their claims to public confidence. The public ought to know more completely what had passed in that House. The public mind ought to be disabused of the calumnious and gross misrepresentations which had been circulated during the recess—the public ought to know whether that portion of the House who would support this motion agreed in opinion with the Right Hon. Gentleman. He wished that Right Hon. Gentleman would inform the House if he, who in 1829 passed the Catholic Relief Bill, would now consent to make the " No Popery" cry a stepping stone to power?—(Cheers.) He trusted also that the Right Hon. Gentleman would explicitly state if ho were prepared to go so far as to justify the language used by his followers at Canterbury and at Ashby—(Loud cheers)—he trusted he would go further, and give some information as to what was the mode of legislation which he meant to adopt with regard to Ire land, whether he meant to govern Ireland as a conquered province, or as a free and independent portion of the Bri tish empire.—(Cheers.) Notwithstanding the taunts of the Right Hon. Baronet last night, he would still main. tain that the present was a time when it was desirable that Government should receive every possible support, in order to enable it to suppress the disturbances which now prevailed. Had one ground been advanced 0 prove that if the Hon. Baronet were advanced to office, there would be one Chartist less, with the exception of those now about to be hanged ? He maintained that in such an event there would not be one Chartist less. Were those proceedings and disturbances peculiar to the present times ? Did the House recollect the halloo raised to the Government of 1830, when he recommended them not to truckle to the perturbed spirits of that day ? The Hon. Baronet bad not only stated that Government did not pos sess the confidence of the country, but had actually charged them with participation in the recent outbreaks which had occurred. That charge was most unfounded; and he would challenge any measure brought forward within the last half century that could be compared to the Reform Bill. Did he recollect the incendiary disturbances which not long since had desolated many of th e rura l di str i cts ? How had they been dealt with ? And, on the contrary, had not the present Government grappled in a commend able manner with those who had ventured to disturb the public peace ? He would impress upon them to inculcate to the people the great moral lesson that they were the most independent who had to depend on their labour, and that they were the best men who could earn the most wages. Did he recollect bow much the wages of labour had been curtailed by the operation of the Poor's Rate under the old law ?—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Baronet had made a charge about the Corroder; being made an open question. Now, however he might regret to differ with many of her Majesty's Ministers, he hoped that the making it an open question would be the means of carrying it ; at all events he thought that was a question which should be fairly left to the consideration of all parties. But were they to expect unity from the government of the Gentlemen opposite? He could not forget the period when the unsuccessful candidate for De vonport turned round on his own principles ; and it was not long since Sir George Murray had sent in his adhesion to the Corn-law Advocates. What prospect of unity then presented itself among the Right lion. Baronet's party ? It would be as presumptuous as 3t would be unnecessary for him to enter into the various measures of her Majesty's Government after the powerful address made by the Right lion. Baronet ( Sir George Grey). But he had one ob servation to make as to the want of confidence in that Government. He (Mr. Handley) would look to the past policy followed by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, for as a tree was known by its fruit so were men known by their works, and those of that party were known throughout Europe. It was to him a matter of the greatest consolation, whatever other difficulties might be set the Government, and notwithstanding the statement of the Duke of Wellington, that no man could predict a pe riod of six months' peace to Europe, we were still at peace with all the Continent. The only charge brought by the Hon. Member opposite of any weight was the agitation of the Hon. Member for Dublin in Ireland. Hon. Members on the other side would, he contended, take the weapon which he so powerfully used out of his hands by a return to a proper system of justice and policy towards Ireland, —( Hear, hear, hear.) For his part, he reposed the greatest confidence in the Secretary of State for Ire land, and he would entreat Hon. Members to view the question now under discussion in a proper light. That question was, did they wish to see Gentlemen on those benches desirous of carrying out useful and constitutional reforms? If they did then he would call upon them to unite against the common enemy by voting against the motion of the Hon. Baronet.—(Cheers.) Sir A. DA L RYAIPL E said he had known Mr. J. An derson of Brighton, and he would say that the attack which had been made upon that gentleman was most unwar ranted. He (Mr. Dalrymple) had great respect for his opponents in Brighton, and he was persuaded that no step could have been taken calculated to give greater offence in that town, than the attack which had just been made upon Mr. Anderson, and a better speech he had never heard than that with which so much fault had been found ; but the part to which he believed particular objection had been taken was a quotation from Mr. Burke, in which he stated that the question of the Church was one which intersected all our institutions. Before the Gallant Member alluded to had made that attack, he ought to have made himself acquainted with the speech to which he had referred. What had Mr. Anderson said—he complained that a Roman Catholic had been appointed to the office of Secretary to the Admiralty, That Mr. \Vise and Mr. Shiel had also been appointed tooffice. The competency and talent of these gentlemen was not denied—the grounds of their being Catholics was not the ground of objection raised against them—it was that they had shown themselves adverse, not only to the Established Church, but to the law, as evidenced in their opposition to the payment of tithes. He heartily concurres in the resolution. Since 1823, he bed been a constant supporter of the Right Han. Baronet ( Sir Robert Peel) and he intended to continue that siapport. He had declared that intention to his con stituents, whose wish it was that the present Government might be displaced, to make room for the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said he rejoiced to hear the statement of the Hon. Member for Brighton, because it had overthrown every semblance of the charge which had been alleged, that there was any disposition on that side of the House to repeal the Roman Catholic Relief Bill. He did object to the appointment to office of the three gentlemen who had been alluded to, not be cause they were Catholics, but because they had distinguished themselves by their opposition to the es tablished institutions of the country, and for the same reasons he would have objected to the appointment of Churchmen had they distinguished themselves in a simi lar manner. He objected to those Hon. Gentlemen being appointed to office, not merely because they were opposed to the Church, but that they were equally opposed to the laws on which the security of that Church depended, and had put themselves forward as the advocates of measures of violence to its best interests. He had heard with pleasure the Honourable Member for Lincoln when he stated that he rejoiced that the Corn-laws had been made an open question. He believed that question would be greatly assisted by being made an open ques tion. They lived in times in which it might be said, as it properly had been, that we were in a state of transition, for the bonds of society were threatened to be rent, and at such a period it was the duty of every man to stand forward. The Honourable Gentleman the Under Secretary of State, whom he did not now see in his place, had stated that they were bandying backwards and forwards the charge of having originated Chartism. He had attributed Chartism to the agitation on the Poor-laws. The Hon. Member might have had the candour and generosity to recollect, that perhaps in the history of the warfare in that House, there never was a question which had been so strenuously contested as the Poor-law Bill. He might have recol lected that there were many Hon. Members on both sides of the House who were most strenuously opposed to the measure. lie for one thought that in that law there were many things which ought to be altered, but be did not think that in the present excited state of the country Government could attempt to propose anything of the kind. At the same time be had net hesitated in his position to go week after week, and take hi.; share in the unpopularity connected with the administration of that law.—( Tory cheering.) They had heard much of the principles of the present Go vernment, arid he believed there were some among them who held the five points of the Charter.—(oh ! and a laugh.) He would take the liberty of !reading a short ex tract from a speech delivered by a Chartist at Kersal Moor. " Why have you left your arms at home ? Because the Bo roughreeve and Authorities of Manchester placed the greatest confidence in the loyalty of the people." So it would appear that even the Chartists appeared to be influenced by sentiments of loyalty.—(Cries of " Name, name.") The speaker was the Reverend Mr. Stephens.—( Oh and great laughter, in the midst of which Mr. Hume exclaimed, " He is not a Chartist, but a Poor-law man.") Why he (Mr. S. Herbert) found that the person designated as the incendiary Oastler and Mr. Stephens were identified.—(Mr. O'Connell, " They are both Tories;" great laughter.) He would now turn to a subject which had been scarcely mentioned in the course of that debate, but which he hoped would be gone into more into detail before it closed—he meant the state of the finances of the country.—( Hear, hear.) Day by day they had an increasing expenditure, with a decreasing re venue ; and he objected to the Government for having, at such a time, introduced Mr. Rowland Hill's plan._. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") He had no hesitation in saying that he approved highly of its ingenuity, H e gave Mr. Hill every merit, while he gave the Government the whole demerit of introducing it when the revenue was de ficient, and when its most sanguine advocates admitted that there would be a loss to the country of at least one million sterling. It appeared to him that there never was a period when it required more ingenuity to devise any tax as a substitute—they could not take off a tax which fell almost exclusively upon the rich, and they must im pose some which must fall with much greater heaviness upon the poor. What was still more extraordinary with that defalcation, they had, year after year been constantly reducing their expenditure. But it should be borne in mind that the present Government, although it deprecated all idea of patronage, had established numerous and expensive commissions in that period, and, in fact, as in the instance of the eight naval captains, they had resorted to arts which were unknown in the darker ages, end in the most unblushing times of Sir Robert Walpole.—(Loud cheers.) Much had been said of the differences of opinion which existed on his (Mr. S. Herbert's) side of the House, but it was scarce necessary for him to refer to the differences that existed on the oppo site side from the Noble Lord's finality of the Reform Bill, down to Mr. Owen, of whom the Noble Lord must have been thinking, when he said that no Sovereign had ever been m:re insulted than her present Majesty.—(Vehe ment cheering from the Tory benches.) They could not for get that a large portion of the supporters of the Government held opinions subversive of the Constitution of the country, and their confidence was not in the strength of the Go vernment, but in its inefficiency.—( Cheers.) He gave full credit to the Noble Lord opposite and his Colleagues for nut partaking of the opinions of that party ; but when ever a hostile demonstration was made on them, the No bin Lord called upon the Hon. Member for Finsbury and his party for their adherence, while that Hon. Member, with his hard biting mother wit had said, as he understood, on a former occasion, that he supported the present Go vernment as they were made of squeezable materials.— (Much laughter.) The Noble Lord said to that party, " True, we,wish to preserve the institutions you are bent on destroying ; but look at the hostile party opposed to us, who would give you only practical reforms, but no real or ganic changes; give us the assistance of your 30 or 40, and enable us to repel the hostile attack."—(Cheers, and laughter.) lbidimus quocurtgue procedcs.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hoo. Gentleman the Secretary-at-War had gratified the House with high-sounding periods and ex traordinary eloquence, and bad given them an historical and philosophical dissertation upon every Ministry except the present ore—(A laugh)—and his (Mr. H.'s) only regret was, that the speech ended before the subject began. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that England bad been a mother to the minority, and a step-mother to the majority, of that House. But it appeared to him that a change bad taken place, and that she was now a mother to the majority, and a step-mother to the minority. When they crushed bigotry and intolerance on the one side, it arose upon the other; and notwithstanding the de fence that had been made for the Marquis of Normanby's administration he thought that it could be considered no thing but the old system of governing one party by the other. He (Mr. H.) wished to see a Government which knew no distinction of creeds.—( Cries of " Oh, oh I") He congratulated the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Devonport upon his consistency upon becoming a convert to the Ballot, although he admitted that he was not con vinced of its efficacy ; and if converts were made in that way from the pressure of external circumstances, were Hon. Gentlemen surprised that there should be great alarm for the safety of the institutions of the country ? The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh insinuated that there were divisions upon his (Mr. Herbert's) side of the House upon very important questions.— (Hear, hear.) There was a division, it was true, upon the question of their privileges which an Act of Par liament would settle in a week. There was a division also upon the subject of the Corn-laws, but would the Right Hon. Gentleman compare the opinions of 320 gentlemen in Parliament with the opinions of one out of Parlia ment ?—(Loud cheers.) If the Right Hon. Gentleman had any hopes arising from these dissensions, his hopes must be vain—they were a compact phalanx—(Much laughter)—and in all sincerity they were taught to main tain their opinions unflinchingly, and to estimate at its proper value the character and station of the Right Hon. Gentleman, who acted as the leader of that great party. It was to him they looked, and it was to him the Noble Lord, the Member for Northumberland, would be obliged to lock, when time had shaken still further his confi dence in an Administration which he considers too co ntemp tible to join but not too contemptible to support.—( Hear.) It was to the Right Hon. Baronet that that Noble Lord must eventually look, and to him the country would look for the defence of institutions under which they had en joyed more happiness and rational liberty than any coun try on God's earth, and who stood as the only bulwark be tween democratic encroachments and the Throne. Mr. WARD had not intended to allude to any matters of a personal nature, and he should have left the question of the admission of Roman Catholics to the Government to be settled by the Hon. and Gallant Officer near him and his colleague ; but the Hun. Member opposite had given some importance to the question by stating that it was the only semblance of a fact that indicated the desire or intention of the Conservative party to interfere in any way with the Roman Catholic Emancipation Bill. He knew nothing of Mr. Anderson, except as being an eloquent and able man ; but he must say that there was a most remarkable coincidence between the observations of the Rev. Gentle man and the religion of the party alluded to. There might have been objections to the Hon. Member for Wa terford on other grounds besides his religion, and he would remind the House that the Hon. Member for Tipperary never belonged to the Central Board of Education. With regard to the Hon. Member for Kildare, whose name had been alluded to, he had stood forward most manfully in the breach against the Repeal agitation, and had thereby lost his election, and yet it had been stated of him, although no objection had been ever taken in that House on the ground of h s talents, on standing for the office which lie held, that his religion ought to have been a bar to his appointment. Mr. Anderson said that he spoke simply on the broad relation of Chinch and State, and upon that broad relation of Church and State, the Rev. Gentleman had brought a grave charge ; that the place of Mr. Wood, who was a conscientious member of the Church of Eng land, had been filled by Mr. More O'Ferrall, a Roman Catholic.—( Bear, hear, hear.) It would appear as if that word implied a complete disqualification for place and power. He did not wish to carry the Brighton Question any further, although it was an ob jection recognised in every place but that House, where it was very inconvenient to admit it. Hon. Gen tlemen found it convenient to disavow the degrading and shabby, as he ( Mr. W.) had once called it, agitation of that question. The Hon. Member for Wakefield had never said a truer word than when he admitted that both parties were put upon their trial by that motion. It was per fectly true. The motion was an appeal to the country on what principles the Government was to be conducted— upon that appeal he would stand or fall. In the present case there was no proportion between the means and the end proposed. Nothing was more important than the end—.nothing more lame and impotent than the conclu sion. The lameness was very conspicuous —the change was most magnificent, and calculated, if established, to change the destinies, not only of England, but the world. The lameness was in the ground upon which the charge was made.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite had suffered this case to rest on two speeches which he (Mr. W ) could not better charac terise than by using the words of an Hon. Member near him, namely--that those Isere two of the most unanswer able speeches ever made. There was not a word in either of them which could call for any observation or opposition from him. The Hon. Member for Kilmarnock had made a most ingenuous argument in favour of his own views—he said he was afraid that the House might be swamped by statistical details, and yet he himself entered into details which he (Mr. Ward) should say ought never to have in duced him to vote for the side he had joined. His whole argument proved that the state of the country became every day more alarming, and that the wants of 9 .5,000,000 were increasing. He had traced those evils to the present Corn-laws, and yet he was united to a party who opposed their repeal. No Government, he said, could heal the wounds of the country except one by whom Liberal principles were applied, and yet he ended by saying that he should support the vote of want of confidence in those Ministers, nine-tenths of whom were in favour of a change in those laws—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches)—and yet he would give a vote to a Ministry which would not make any change in the Corn-laws, as the Right Hon. Baronet had told them last night. That Right Hon. Gentleman had the merit of being the first to place the motion then before the House on what might be called intelligible grounds. He had certainly made an indus trious, laborious, and clever speech, as he always did. It was not a speech of good nature perhaps—for good na ture was not the Right Hon. Baronet's fault.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Right Hon. Baronet had called his (Mr. Ward's) attention forcibly, he might say, to take part in the present debate, by alluding to so humble an in dividual as himself.—(Hear, hear.) No inan had the power to give so much force as the Right Hon. Baronet to different or conflicting statements. He worked them out with the greatest skill—they were in his hands like the minute carvings of ancient oak—work which modern art in vain endeavoured to imitate. The Right Hon. Baronet stood unrivalled in his art, and he bad certainly given them last night a most characteristic speech.__( Cheers from the Opposition Benches.) That speech had ranged over a long period of years—ever since himself had, he believed, the honour of a seat in the House. The Right Hon. Ba ronet had repeated some words of his (Mr. W.'s) regarding a difference of opinion among his party, so long as two years ago, on the Appropriation Question. He should s own ßa r o o n n i e ri: r o i n a stmon wouldn Clause ahalaoturisoec that wh a a s a i ts o w n ph r re e o; avowing them, either in t s e occa l s d io h n to * leave to the charge . Of their having aban donedsLyiin re mained however,ui t unchanged, ihat hiandhe Housel e ghi hademo himself olfr never oalvi ees elsewhere.el nt r ed u du n ck to od f r th o hHi m amot reason why ho should give R ig ht Hon. Baronet, betweenL o r d andt Jelinht oe trusted the Right Hon. the abandonment of the A n p uoh p attti r ied ? , t p a o b o sabeneddl abandonment opponents h e n y t v mh e t ae l t t i on h e f tainGt; Ministerse o ba that su e ut rr was Government, a e s ntlitthh, He had that a o t b h j e ect had always been ,to oppose Question? If he should do so he the Appropriation • h t suppose that he had not common sense, Gentlemen mg that his rote par party whose th e motion avowedef t he Nobled difference e F r e r e i Li e d would not have common sense—ien(tHsetaarg,chseoafr. that) Honourable tlucati o n g bu e t ntl h e e m w en as and the Noble Lord near the Right Hon. Baronet, un, had, rather than consent to his (Mr. W.'s) motion, in the Russell, for in the very year 1834, to inquire into the abuses of the Irish Church, osptpilolsiatbeleantod see the separated themselves from the Ministry. While he consi dered all this, he could not, with any regard to common sonsenttove bringingoteinf those avoro two am o o c tio e n ntl w em hi e ch mn e u e s s t e have for e its end the into office. It was true that there were differences on that side of the House, but there were differences quite as great, as he could show, on the other side. The Right Hon. Baronet had given facts, and those facts which he had found fault with, were the very things which had in duced him (Mr. Ward) to give Government his support on the present occasion.—(lronical Opposition cheers.) There were differences of opinion, he allowed, on his side of the House, but there were greater differences among his opponents. His party had in addition a middle point on which they might meet.—(Opposition cheers.) The principles which the Right Hon. Baronet bad most blamed iu Ministers were precisely those which placed him among the followers of the Noble Lord on that occasion. —( Opposition cheers.) He thought that every one who had ever listened to him in the House should allow that as long as the Noble Lord had advocated finality, he (Mr. Ward) had withdrawn his confidence from him; and if the present motion had been broueht forward las, year, he did not know but he should have voted with Hun. Gentlemen opposite, or at all events be should not have voted tof themselves sufficient to draw down the indignation of in favour of Ministers. ( Hear, bear, and cheers heaven on this land.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") from the Opposition benches.) He knew that all this He did not exaggerate, he spoke of facts of which he vas very pleasing to the ears of Hon. Gentlemen oppo- was cognizant. At a meeting of a Society in his ( Mr. site, but those were the foundations of union on this side Ward's) own county, Lord Verulam moved a resolution of the House.—( Loud cheers from the Opposition (he did not know whether that mast excellent and Hon. benches.) His party had formed a middle point on G e ntl e man, the Member for Hertford, who took the chair which they might agree. Could the same be said of Hon. on that occasion, was mime of the uncharitableness that Gentlemen opposite? He would ask where the Hon. was then exhibited) inculcating on the whole country Member for Oxford, and the Noble Lord the Member for humiliation, fasting, and prayer —pray er in public— North Lancashire, could find that middle ground ? He prayer in private—prayer in the family —prayer in the should like to know if the Member who was not opposed cottage—and all to avert from the land the to the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Act, and wrath of God, because the Hon. Member for Tipperary the Right Hon. Baronet by w h om i t was carr i ed, could had been introduced into the Privy Council.--( Laughter. ) agree on that subject? He would repeat that his party He would tell Hon. Gentlemen opposite, for they seemed had a middle point, and that point was progressive re- to be ignorant of what their party had been doing— form.---( Loud cheers from the Opposition benches.) (Laughter) —that that was not all. The book of Reve- He should say more—it was not progressive reform as the lations had been quoted—the most abstruse pages of Noble Lord the Member for Northumberland meant it, God's word had been perverted in order to make them which was a nominal reform without progress, but the apply to the miserable political disputes in that House; real bona fide progressive reform.—( Hear, hear, from the and he would ask the Hon. Member for Droitwich whether Opposition Benches.) Would the Noble Lord ( Stanley), that was a proper spirit in which those questions ought to who was taking down his words, hear his definition of pro- be discussed ? Why the Hon Member himself did the gressive reform ? It was a definition of Refor m to which same thing in his speech last night, for he told the House nobody on the Benches below him could feel it inconsistent that the country wanted a firm, a steady, a Protes to accede.—( Cheers from the Opposition Benches.) They tant Government.—( Hear, hear, and cheers from the did not ask the Noble Lord the Member for Stroud to con- Opposition.) • What did that mean, what did those cede any opinion of his, h e a l rea dy c o n ce d e d op en questions. Hon. Gentlemen, who cheered that expression so loudly, —( Loud and long-continued cheers from the Oppo- mean ?—(Ministerial cheers.) Did they mean a system sition Benches.) The Right Honourable Baronet the exclusive of Catholics from power, or did they not ? If Member for Pembroke h a d t o ld them last night that they did not, what conceivable pretence had they for using open questions we re but a mor) s kilf u l means of avoiding the word Protestant Government ?—( Opposition ironical a duty which statesmen should perform.—(Here some chums.) If they did mean it, he would tell them they Hon. Member on the Opposition benches observed that were no legitimate partisans of the Right Hon. Baronet these were not the words of the Right Hon. Bart.) Mr. the Member for Pembroke, who disavowed last night an W y ard proceeded t o sa y, th at t h e passage was quo t e d f rom i ntention, however remote, of tampering in any way with a speech of Lord B roug h am , an d it was , he believed, as the Catholic Relief Bill.—( Hear.) However, he would follows ;—" That open questions were a means resorted to leave Hon. Gentlemen, whom be left impaled on the by statesmen who pr e f erre d k ee pi ng their places to doing horns of this dilemma, to justify themselves to that their duty." H e (M r . Ward) t oo k an entirely opposite House ; they were throwing dust in the eyes of the coun view of the case; and he thought that open questions try, if they meant exclusion. If they meant that no were necessary step s t o grea t changes.—(Loud and re- Catholic was to be admitted to power because he was a peated cheers from the Opposition Benches.) If he Catholic, let them avow it.—(Loud cheers.) He wanted a proof of that, he should find it in the speech of could understand that, but it w as not a principle which the Hon. Member f or Wilt s hi re , w h o h a d just sat down, such a statesman as his Right Hon. Friend, the Member who told the House distinctly that Catholic Emancipation for Edinburgh, designated, would dare to apply to the could not have been carried to this day if it had not been practical concerns of the country.--(" Hear, hear," from made an open question.—( Cheers from the Ministerial Lord Stanley.) If the Noble Lord cheered that, how Benches.) What was there inconsistent in a Radical did he mean to keep his partisans in order?—(Ministerial like himself taking the fittest means to advance the cheers.) Would the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Ox. objects which he had in view ?—( Opposition cheers ) ford, say whether he meant to repeal the Emancipation What was there inconsistent in the Noble Lord, the Act or not, for he was going to support the vote Member for Stroud, admitting manfully, as he had done, of want of confidence ?—( Hear, hear.) Let him that he could not keep his party together on any other say that there was no division on the other terms.—( Vehement opposition cheers.) He had admitted side, and that all they wanted was to form the strongest and that that concession was wise, just, and necessary, to the the steadiest Protestant Government.—( Cheers.) He great majority of those with whom he usually acted.— would not apply in the debate instances of that kind. Hon. ( Ironical Opposition cheers.) The misfortune of quoting Gentlemen were pleased to disclaim them—that was part Lord Brougham was that you could not find a statement in of their tactics. They appealed to the "No Popery " cry one of Lord B.'s speeches which did not contradict some on the hustings, but they appealed to the Catholic Relief statements of his in another sp eec h. I n a sec o nd speech Bill in that House.--(Cheers ) Why at the last election of Lord Brougham's, in which he commented on a decla- for Newark, as his Hon. and Learned Friend the Solicitor ration of the Noble Lord the Member for Northumber- General well knew, Mr. Thesiger, a most distinguished land, that he had consented to the introduction of the member of the Conservative party, had told the people of Ballot as an open question, not with the view of forward- England that it was because the Government were the ing the measure, but for the purpose of defeating it, Lord minions of Popery that he opposed them.—( Loud Brougham, in commenting on that statement, says that, cheering from the Opposition side of the House. in his view, as an ordinary statesman, he did conceive They had not even spared Royalty itself, for it had bean that when seventeen or twenty names were added to a di- hinted that there were fair grounds for the change of vision on a question, for which they could not have voted dynasty that occurred iu 1668. —( Cries of " Oh, oh.") before, that question must be advanced. It was because That had not been disavowed, at all events, by the Gen ' the Government had allowed the Ballot to remain an open tleman to whom the words had been attributed, although question, through a just, wise, and necessary deference to a with feelings that did him the utmost credit he had 1 majority of their supporters, that he would give Ministers expressed his regret for the injustice that, under those his vote.—( Cheers from the Opposition benches.) There circumstances, he had done to the Queen.—( Cries of were undoubtedly other questions on which, as the Right " Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear.") He should not have Hon. Baronet had said, there might be a difference of opi_ alluded to those things had not Hon. Gentlemen oppo nion between the Nuble Lord the Secretary for the Colo- siic talked of the schisms and divisions on his side of Ines and himself. But the Noble Lord had a right to his the House, but they were nothing like the schisms and own opinion as he (Mr. Ward) had to his, and nobody divisions there were on the other. Their opinions were could doubt his integrity and his ability to defend his views. mach more deeply seated and extremely conscientious — He found in a letter to the electors of Stroud that the they were all based on religious bases, and that Noble Lord was not opposed to an extension of the 101. was the worst basis of all. —( Hear.) There were household franchise to counties. The Noble Lord had nullifiers and repeaters on the opposite side, but they already assented to the abolition of the rate-paying clauses. were not united.—( Cheers.) If he had wanted any --(lronical Opposition cheers.) He was willing to con- other reasons than those which he had named in the sent to a proper system of registration. He thought that earlier parts of his speech for the vote he intended to the Member for Stroud and his party would not consent to give, he would have fount' them in the course which had such measures. Ho did not want to distues the franchise been taken by the Conservative party on this question question. It was too great to be discussed incidentally in during the last six months. Nothing was worse for the the present temper of the times. He should say, however, safety, honour, and religion of England, than to revive that be thought there was no man in the House—and he the distinctions of 18 9 9. They could not do it—they was sure the Right Hon. Baronet would agree with him— must admit the principle fully they must admit the who could doubt the actual necessity of some measure principle of religious equality, if they wished the country being resorted to conciliate the vast masses who were to be powerful— tranquil at home, and respected abroad now placed hopelessly beyond the constitutional pale, Wherever he looked —to the outrages at New whose passions were embittered by their exclusion from po litlcal power, which had thrown them into the hands of port, or the ca pt ure of Gituznee—he saw the some of the mos t unpr i nc i pled adventurers, and some of 'Catholics and Protestants fighting together. He s a id the worst of men. No one who knew the manufacturing with earnestness, that if they interfered with the present districts would deny that Chartism began where the right arrangement, on them would lie the responsibility of of voting ended. Would they make a barrier still greater dragging them down through every stage of national humiliation ; disgrace would succeed, an they would between those parties and the rest of the state ? or would they not rather trust to some extension of be what they deserved to be—the laughing-stock of the the right of voting, whi c h wou ld g i ve men an interest in world.—( Hear, hear. ) Lord STANLEY then rose and said--Sir, I have waited the property of the country to which they belonged? The till this late hour in the debate, in the anticipation that some Right Hon. Baronet told them that he was quite 'leis- other than the " first Cabinet Minister" who spoke—(Loud taken in thinking that Government was behind public cheers)—would have attempted to answer the lucid, the emu opinion. He said, on the contrary, that they had given mentative speech of my Right Hon. Friend, the Member for direct and indirect encouragement to the Chartist dis- Pembroke—(Cheers)—for in the absence of such a reply, I turbances. The Right Hon. Baronet would permit him feel the ground cut from under my feet.—(Hear, hear.) h That however, to say that he was the last man from whom those speech, t e mibnottisrq House,as itandid, will the eu principles rstil l o o n ,. ewa'theiec party observations should have proceeded. He told the House g u re t a party of this House—(lmmense cheers)—maintain that the that the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Stroud ° Government is not worthy of possessing the confidence of the had been read at Chartist meetings, and had been pleaded House, and, whatever the result of the di v i s i on , th a t it d oes as an apology for their outbreak—that speech, however, not possess the confidence of the people.—(Loud and con had not been correctly reported. Would the Right tinued cheers.) Sir, I feel the sincerest respect for Honourable Baronet now allow him to say that when the talents, for the honesty, for the zeal, in propagating and the Chartists wanted something particularly exciting or supporting his principles, of my Right Hon. Friend (Mr. inflammatory, it was not to the Ministerial benches they Macaulay,) who attempted to answer—(Cheers and laughter applied. It was to the Conservatives they went back, and from the Opposition)—my Right Hon. Friend near me, (Sir to the Right Hon. Baronet's former heresies.--( Cheers, James Graham.) I will not even say attempted to reply— and laughter on the Ministerial benches.) A sh o rt time (Hear, hear)—for though i t n h yßi ght Friend c r e r rin opposite a - before the outbreak at Newport, his famous Privy Council said it was tion we hadeaspiler to plenty.—(Cheers.) reply than torecriminate—ofl-1 cers.) An eloquent e s say—(ll e a ' , speech, as violent, he should say, as any Chartist speech that was ever made, had been read at one of the hear)—but of answ ers t o f ac t s — o f re ply t o arguments , easy as it might be, there was not even an attempt.—( Cheers.) We Chartist meetings, and read with unbounded applause. had a splendid historical review of the last half century, with Did the Hon. Baronet recollect that the sponge was quite the exception only of the five years we are now discussing.— a favourite with the Chartists—( Hear, hear)—that his (Laughter and cheers.) But in that luminous essay—that arguments on the Corn-laws and the Currency had fur- laboured speech, of the only Cabinet Minister who has yet spoken, niched the staple for many an article in the Northern Star ? the last introduced into th e C a bi ne t, an d t h erefore the best index —( Hear, hear.) In fact, there was li the greatest possible of the principles of the Govern men t, it appeared to me a some analogy between the political principles the Right me what dangerous cou rse in the p resen t s t ate of the public mind, Baronet then held and those of Mr. F. O'Connor and the st a te of th e coun t r y, es p ec i a ll y at h ome, that the " only was now the Chartist candidate for the West Rid ng of , Cabinet Minister"—( Laughte r )—i n di scuss i ng these topics, i who should h ave occup i e d th e grea t est port i on of his speech in a Yorkshire. H e did not think, under those circumstances, that it became the Ri ht Hon. Baronet to criticise the laboured eulogy on th e b ene fit s o f ag it a ti on as the basis of good g Government. Of what was it that m y Ri g h t H on. Friend ' s on the Ministerial side of the House. It aht exist between political men speech was composed ? Mainly of th ese t wo great principles, pp that agitation was the mainspring of G o v ernment, without ( Mr. Ward's) opinion, the Radical party could not have a which no great t , n f o a us G ef o u N l e measur t e ever in ,lhtadhb tireabout en eo ld un h t e ry a sho r u ea ld give than the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet.—( t H ar, to fo i r ne t e h e e e s n u f r d p e o n r ee o it was -esrsnemntenal that i i ' there e hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet had told them what they, , p maltitude of " open ques ti ons ," so th at t h ere i s no possible might hope and expect; he had told them that he was op- combination of discord an t e l emen t s , w hi c h. if b ase and mean enough to sacrifice thei r o wn p o liti ca l o pi n i ons , f or the sake Reform ; but the Right Hon. Baronet's definition of posed to the Ballot, but that he was in favour of progres siveof accepting office, a G overnmen t wou ld no t b e j ust i f i ed i n adopting to carry on the Administration. There has been progressive Reform was similar to that of the Noble Lord's no controversy of the facts of my Right Hon. Friend (Sir the Member for Northumberland—namely, nominal Re- J. G). Up to this moment the whole of my Right Hon. form, without airy progress at all. The Right Honour- Friend's statements—the whole of his charges—the whole of able Baronet had also said a great deal about co l on i a l his arguments—the whole ground be laid last night—stands oy p lic , but, in every colony, the Church question wa s nnrefuted, untouched.—(hear.) It stands not only unrefuted the great bar to all arrangements. Had it not been the and untouched, but better still—for though no second Cabinet grea t bar to the settlement of differences in Upper Minister has come forward, a proximate Cabinet . Minister— Canada?t And when colonial questions were mentioned, if (Laughter and cheers)—has appeared (Mr. Ward) in support he who, three short years back, he stated, had he wanted any additional reason for the vote he was about of the :Ministry, been ' guilty of the grOsses r t ee ter iversation be ever' to give, he would find it in those words. He was indebted menso cheering)—he comes f g erward, and grappling with my knew—(lm personally to the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Right Hon. Friend — or as I h o p e d, a b ou t t o d o so —b y di sput i ng Colonies for having introduced a most useful and gene- his facts, by answering his arguments, —says the Hon. Mem ficial reform in our colonial system, which he had tried boas—" The Right ?lon. Baronet's facts are my facts—l stand in vain to obtain from any Member on the opposite side, by those facts—his assertions, his facts, his positions, are my The Noble Lord had adopted, to a great extent, the justification for voting confidence in the Government." Sir, my principles recommended by the Colonial Land Committee, Right Hon. and Learned Friend the Judge Advocate-General, in of which he (Mr. Ward) had the honour of being chair- his speech, which I listened to with the highest pleasure—( Oh, man in 1836. The Noble Lord had appointed an from the Ministerial fh . benches)—because, i howev r e e r sse m d u m el a i n ! Emigration Board to work them out, although he might diiiffferranrkolm and i i n n a op v, m_ a ion m s ii t ie r i they d were esire ex i p n my had not yet arrived at the conviction that an full} mer - ta a r n life to imitate—(Cheers)—because they were stated in Parlia- Act of Parliament would be necessary. He ( Mr. Ward) manner, ) and with a power worthy of the name he bears— felt it would be impossible to give the plan a fair trial un —(Cheers)—a name of which I shall never speak here or else less an Act of Parliament were obtained. There was only where, without respect—(Che , rs)—my Right Hon. and Learned one more question with which he would trouble the House, Friend (Sir G. Grey) commenced by asserting his great satis and that was the religious question which had been most faction that at length the Conservative party, departing from wisely, prudently, and effectually tabooed. It had hardly the position they had hitherto occupied, were about to try the been alluded to on the other side during the course of the strength of the respective parties in one greatcontsttheatr the the debate.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Baronet the Member commencement of a Session—which was to decide ~ for Oxford, had not come forward in this front rank of the one party or the other was worthy the confidence of that ' House. battle The Right Hon. Baronet rejoiced, he sa id, t o see th e Conserve for five party taking a more manly cour s e, i ns tead o f p u r s uin g th e Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Colquhoun) who was a great Kent (Mr. Plumptre.)—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and he had looked in vain for the Hon. Member line they had adopted of late year s , o f canvass i ng , o f i mpe di ng , of obstructing the measures of the G ov ern men t i n d e t a il authority on these matters, had mad e a sp eec h i n which (Cheers)—and he expressed his surprise that at no earlier there was not the slightest allusion to any religious differ- period had this step been taken.—(Hear, hear.) Without re ences existing bet ween Hon. Gentlemen opposite. One ference to the speech of the Hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. word more to the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Gra- Ward), which gave a pretty good reason for a considerable ham.) It was not with reference to the Corn-laws, bat alteration of sentiments since the last Parliament—(Laughter, with reference to this religious question, that before his and hear, hear)—and who said, that if this k motionh h a e d e b o e u en d constituents he (Mr. Ward) had taken the liberty of en- brought forward last Session, he did not -now that 1 ricking his vocabulary with one of the Right Hon, Be- have voted for the Government—(Cheers)—without referring ronet's words. He thought it a word peculiarly applicable to that e ty ir , their discretion as to the to the tactics of the party opposite. The Right Honourable exercising Baronet called the Government a shabby Government opposition, are to take thei o r pp le o s s s it o i n o s n , , forward their measures of those how th ey to oppose. bring —he (Mr. Ward) called the Opposition the shabby —(Hear, hear, hear.) But, Sir, if the Right t H ed on l . and l whenfrom Opposition.—(Dear, hear.) He did so because when, Learned Gentleman asks why we so longhesit fi a xed , ;Li _ during the period of a whole six months, without one frankly tell him—that it has ever been the syllable falling from the Right Hon. Bart. opposite, who ciple of my declared himself in favour of religious equality—without and of the party with whom nt, he never to endanger the Right Honourable acts, Friend (Sir Robert Peel) unless at the same time they were one word from the Noble Lord, the Member for North existence of a n G e o r y t e a r k n e e Lancashire, they had tried a system of unprincipled agita- Now I will tell my Right Hon. prepared to undertake cheering.)dmt responsibility of forming another.— tion—( Cries of " Oh, Oh" from the Opposition)—they had allowed it to be tried at all events—they had en- ) —that we have observed the feelings of the population sef and Learned Friend that we have watched—( Immense cheer ' couraged it with their patty—( Cheers from the Ministerial g month —one t i ll's country—(Cheers)—and we know,. that one change after benches)—they had worked it out in every town and vii- another—(Cheers)—weknowitteferros7 highenatuhtholrity—( Cheers) lage of the empire, preserving to themselves the power, if — we saw it day by day ( C they could not profit by it,when Parliament met,of coming to by one—the most i respectable, — the steadiest —m ad a l y ter that House and disavowing all that had been said, doning . them_ 'nthereckless, downward course the suing.—(Tremendous and long-continued cheery i n We v r - ii He ( Mr. W.) went to Sheffield shortly after the visit of sin careering.) a d n I d a . I; -- two Rev. Gentlemen, Mr. M‘Neil and Mr. M‘Ghee,who ( k c no n h i g e v e . r t s h . e ) ef v e e ct k s no th w at th h at av G e en b t e le e m n en pr o o p d p u o c sei d te guish for something like a Gov ernment. --(Cheering ) But pant, and England.— were paid, he believed—( Opposition cries of " Oh!") who were the apostles of calumny, and his opinion of them guish let not my Right Hon. and Learned Friend flatter ' himself was that they were retained for the special purpose that if in this battle we should be beaten, as I hesitate not to founding and dispensing every species of uncharitableness, say, on a division, we certainly shall—(Cheers)—let not my calumny, and falsehood in the name of the Protestant roll- Right Hon. Friend flatter himself that there will be the slight gion.—( Opposition cries of " Oh, oh," and Ministerial .nths eat alteration in the course which the groat Conservative party cheers.) Those gentlemen who bad had their d wayi resolvedhre that to ursue.—(Tremendou3 cheers ) I assure to allow h respect during the vacation,would now be so goo d measure . byy measure—(Cheers)—step by step—(Con an answer to be. given to them. He had aright,am, we will eers)—failure after failure—(Cheers)—we will watch, connect this agitation with Conservative p Eycheck, We Will control the Cabinet.—Long conti oh,ften ar eOnserva- nued cheers.) and cheers.) The leading Members of . the V% e w ill support them, when (as th ey o ften fire d have themselves with it.—( enewe . done) they are glad of our support—(Renewed cheer criestire party had connected ld Ler i Wharncliffe was mg)—and no consideration shall restrain us from thus pur of " Oh, oh !") At Sheffield t Reformation Society, suing the fixed line of duty which shall be the great, the the President of the Protestant individuals were received united policy of the Conservative party—( Continued cheers) — by which those two very The Honourable Mem- from observing your measures, from confounding your plans, and entertained.—( Cheers. ) cheers from obstruct ) stated last night from obstructing, if you please—(Loud cbe bar for Droitwich (Mr. Pakingto h n the Cabinet ing, if you please—( Cheers)—and from throwing out, as we e that he knew of no instance in wine t . promo- have done—(Cheers)—measures which we believe to be tions had been received or commented upon in improper detrimental to the best interests of the country.—( Loud cheers. ) the Hon. Member's conscien. • end of the Session, terms. Now, if that was . , We will, from the commencement to the We will leave to tious opinion, he must have . been remarkably uninformed, closely watch every measure you introduced. . n had to wield the sbeen the standing others the name of power, while we are content . because those Cabinet promotions Sir, my for the Hon. Gentlemen D authority of the Government.--( Hear, and cheers.) dish—the staple commodity _ throughout the posite 1 recess.— II o ' - Right Honourable Friend, the Judge Advocate, came whole ( ear, hear.). boldmanly front and said, " I meet this appointments, the Popish Privy I forward with a and a . Those three atrocious e—l invite a vote o with f confidence." Secretary of the Admiralty, question with a direct negativ . a direct Councillor, the Popish Seer and No, he did not go so far, ‘, I meet this question .. . Treasury, had been the Popish Lord of theheld up as negative," but he dared not go so far as to say that the division EVEN'NG E 1 I lON. of that night would be a vote of confidence in the Ministry. Sir, I thought the plain question was, had the House of Coca mons confidence in the Government.—( Cheers.) I wish I could see the Hon. Member for Carlow in his place, the inde pendent Member for Carlow, as he called himself—(Cries of " Oh, oh")—he stated himself to be the representative of the unpurchaseable community of Carlow, and he was returned by so triumphant a majority, and that after a scrutiny of almost unequalled length before a Committee of gentlemen holding his own opinions, who, of course, could have no commanity of feel ing—( Cries f"Oh ! oh !")—was seated by a majority of one. —(" Oh !" and loud cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman claimed to represent a large constituency—a large portion of the people— which was all represented by the single unit. What did he say ? Why, he said that he came forward to vote in opposition to the motion of the lieu. Baronet, the Member for Devon ; but let no man suppose that he placed confidence in the Go s vernrnent ; said he, I negative the want of confidence, but that by no means implies that I have any confidence in the Govern ment. Now, Sir, let me ask what is the question before the I . loese? A s I un d erstan d i t, i t i s not w h et h er t hi s H ouse has COD -lldenee in Ministers, for if that were decided on its merits, they must be d e f eate d ; the question is, whether Ministers should re tain office or not ?—( Loud cheers.) Whatever may be the re sult of the division of to-night, whether it may be five, ten, nay thirty, we care not, the great importance of the question lies not in the division, but in the debate.—( Cheers. ) At the be, ginning of the Session the people will know what are the plans of either party.—( Cheers.) The country will not only know j that the Government are supported by a bare majority of the House of Commons, b u t it w il l also know upon what grounds that majority was obtained, and upon what future expectations that Government must keep in office, while it is wholly deprived of power.—(Cheers.) I ask, Sir, what is the meaning of political power? Is it, Sir, a belief—a concurrence in the principles governing the Administration ? It so, Sir, is it not necessary that the House of Commons should know what those principles are? Let me ask, Sir, does it not, in the first place, involve a belief in the foresight and sagacity of the men conducting the affairs of the Government ?—(Loud cheers.) It must involve a firm reliance upon their own principles—a determination to push forward that which they know to be right. Now, Sir, all this is involved in my notion of political union. We must have confidence in the men conducting the affairs of the State. Now, if this be a true definition of what is political confidence, it certainly implies a fixed principle upon the part of the Government a belief in the superior sagacity of the men forming that Government —a confidence that nothing would drive them to take a course which they knew to be wrong—a confidence in them that they would rather sacrifice their office than refuse to do that which they believed to be right: Now let me ask how many Gentlemen in this House will say that upon this interpretation of political confi. dente they can place any confidence in her Majesty's Ministers? —(Loud cheers.) Sir, if we were to ask the question in the country we would be laughed at; many certainly said at once that they voted to maintain the present Ministry in office, not that they approved of their conduct—not that they had confi dence in them, but, as they said, they are the men whom we can press forward in the way we want them to go.-se (Loud cheers.) Now, Sir, that is not my interpre tation of political confidence.--(Loud cheers.) Now, what in the name of Heaven are the principles of t he Government ? what are the three great questions of our domestic policy? They are, the extent to which the franchise may be given to the people, and we all know that in every country that gives a control over the representation ; the second is the mode in which that franchise should be communicated, whether acting as a public charge, as a great duty devolving upon the electors; and, thirdly, the especial manner in which a great country like. the present, with complicated laws, in which a swarming popu lation, may be provided with the means of food. Can there be any other three questions upon which it is most necessary that this House should be enlightened ? Is there any human being, is there even a Cabinet Minister, who, upon any one of those great questions, can tell me what are the principles of the Government? If you do not know the principles governing the Ministers, how can you possibly express confidence, unless it were a blind confidence, which could only be placed in men of great talents, of persevering industry, of political honesty, and practical experience, all combined together, in one set of nen acting together, were actually necessary before the House can vote confidence in any set of men. Now, let us take an example—ls there any one question upon which the Govern ment is united? Suppose we take the Corn-laws. Now, tell me is there any one man in the House, or out of it, who has confidence in the present Ministry upon the Corn laws ?—( Loud cheers.) Sir, I should like to hear in succes sion from the Ministry what their opinions are. The principle of one is absolute protection to the agriculturist. No, Sir, I am not sure of that—l am not sure—(being reminded by an Hon. Member behind him, he said)—Yes, the head of the Government, Lord Melbourne, in another place states—but Sir, if the Goverment had one fixed opinion, I should be able to carry it in my mind, but when every one has a different opinion, I confess it is very hard for any one to say what are the opinions of each. All that I know is this, that Lord Mel bourne said the free trade in corn would be the maddest and wildest speculation that:could enter into the mind of man ; and yet the very next act of his Government was to take into the Cabinet one who is most directly pledged to a free trade in Corn.—(Cheers.) I could nob un derstand, Sir, a question left open upon the mere details, but if the Government absolutely said they were in favour of protection to the landed interest in the shape of a tax rising when the prices fall, and falling when the prices rise, that is fixed principle upon which all people might depend, and the farmers might rely safely upon the protection which has been vouchsafed to them for so many years, but can any one tell me that such is the fixed principle upon which the Government act ?—(Cheers.) Now, Sir, let me ask, is the Bal!ot a question—is open voting a question of importance to the State ? No one Gentleman who has yet addressed the House has denied the importance of that question in a con stitutional point of view. —(Cheers. ) My Noble Friend the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies has declared, that in a constitutional point of view the Ballot, if carried, must lead to the adoption of Universal Suffrage—( Hear, hear)—and he also declared that the adoption of Universal Suffrage must lead to the ruin of the State. What then is the course which my Noble Friend pursues ? Not only does Ire not mark with reprobation those under his control, for the votes given against his opinion—those who vote in favour of a measure which he thinks will lead to the ruin of the country, but he takes into his Cabinet those who state broadly and distinctly that they will use their influence in the Cabinet—their influence in the Government, for the express pur pose of advancing those measures which, according to the Noble Lord, will be ruinous to the country.—(Cheers.) flue third question, Sir, is the extension of the franchise ; and here comes forward the Hon. Member for Sheffield, and he said at last, I will give you a different principle—l confess that I opened my eyes, because he spore as one with au'hority—as one whom recent events had given a conviction to his mind that the coun try was to have the benefit of progressive reform. The principle of progressive reform is the next topic—it is one un which all men of that side of the House agree, and I doubt whether it would not do even for a Chartist.—( Hear, hear.) I doubt whether a Chartist might not be taken into the Cabinet on such a principle—because he need onl be prepared to go on the principle of " progressive reform."—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) But now it seems we have a " a middle point"— (Laughter, and hear, hear.) But I turn to those who are the main strength of the Ministry; and what do they say? Why, they are all for " progressive reform."—( Hear, hear.) That " progressive reform," however, has been serried so far already that it has caused the secession of my Noble Friend (Lord Howiek 1. I know my Is'o'ale Friend well, and, I believe, it must be going far indeed to frighten him— ( Hear, hear, and laughter)—his progression would be utter Radicalism.—( Hear, hear.) Before my Noble Friend could have seceded from the Goverment their principles of progressive Reform must have been alarming indeed—(Hear, hear) —and more so, of course, to the Conservative party,—( Hear, bear. ) Ere my Noble Friend could have found it necessary to secede from the Cabinet, he must have reached the ultima Thule of his progressive Reform, and so he had found it it impera tive to secede from those who wished to go further.—(Cheers.) Now, Sir, of all the conditions in which a Government can or could be placed, this I hold to be for the public welfare the most dangerous of all. I do not hesitate to say, that it is my wish to see a Government occupying a respectable poeition. I would rather see Gentlemen opposite, who entertain ex treme opinions, tell us honestly what these opinions are-.- ( Hear, hear)—than see a Government in which all their opinions are closed together under the appearance of progres sive Reform.—( Hear, hear.) I can conceive a Government so constituted as to excite the distrust and suspicion of all well thinking men. —(Cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") Last year there was a lamentable instance of want of strength in the Government, one of whose officers boasted that the course they had pursued had put down Chartism.--( Hear, hear.) The first law officer of the Crown last year visited his constituents, and in a speech enumerating the merits of the Government, he said that through the measures adopted by the Government Chartism was banished from the land and would be known no more. Why the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman at that moment stood upon the crater of a volcano, for within one month of the delivery of that speech he was prosecuting for high treason twenty-one unfortu nate and misguided men, who had broken oat, not in consequence of the absence of work, or the want of wags") but in consequence of the influence exercised over them by unprincipled agitators.—( Hear, hear.) And it was only through the inclemency of the weather and the providence of the Almighty that they were prevented from sacking one of the principal towns in Wales.--( Hear, hear.) Talk of Chartism being extinct ! Do you believe that it is extinct now? ( Hear, hear.) You not only know that it is smouldering. but you know that it lives throughout the country. And the country knows what encouragement your fatal policy hoe given to it. You have the insurrection at Newport—yon have the outbreak at Sheffield—you have the dis turbances at Bradford—you have the troops wider arms—you have the police called out—you have the troops prepared for an engagement. Where ? Why, good God, sis the heart of the metropolis of England !—( Tremendous cheer ing.) And all this too, within four months after the vaunt and boast of the first Law Officer of the Crown that the course pur sued by the Government had banished Chartism from the land. Another main ground of confidence in the Government is the conviction that what they assert they will maintain unflinch ingly. I grieve to say that from the commencement of the Government of Lord Melbourne down to the present moment, that Government h as li ve d— no t upon w h at t h ey h ave done, , but upon what they have undertaken to do, knowing well at the time that they could not perform.—(Great cheering.) The more certain a measure was to be defeated the better it suited their purpose.—(Cheers.) Because it was a sinndard topic upon which they might live for another Session. Their stock in trade was good intentions, and when they were de feated it was said " The Tories had prevented their carrying such good measures," and then some other jack-a-lanthorn measure was put forward for the purpose of hood-winking their supporters.—(Cheers.) On what did the Government come into power? Why upon pledges, which up to this hour they have never fulfilled—pledges which they have abandoned, and prin ciples which they have declared essential to the welfare of the country.—( Hear, hear.) They had taken office upon the prin ciples of appropriation—and where was the Appropriation Clause? I do not blame the Noble Lord for abandoning that clause be cause he knew perfectly well that he could not carry it. But I blame him for founding his Government upon it, and I charge him with throwing out the Government of my Right Hon. Friend, the Member for Tamworth, on the ground that he would carry that clause. The political object the Govern mentv rnm e had e i nn thad in v iw_t hir object view obtainedwas e b yth is wasattained, at assertion—that ne wase clause tt Go remans ou was abandtonoefd,and office. my Honourable ir, Istat state this Friend his stil i Appropria tion clause as one—three are many many more—some G s l e i v g e h r t n e r s n t e n h t es e it a a m ti e on forw bei u ng d the House, or from a fear of opposition, shown by w gr i e th ater me a as nd ure s s o , me and less u . pon Th tl e ie the measures are withdra en. They put forth feelers as to the number of votes, and when they find there is the least likeli hood of the measure not being carried, they withdraw it alto ,sether. Is this, Sir, the course that ought to be pursued by a G over nment ?—(dreat cheering.) An individual Member may bring forward a measure on his own responsibility, and when he finds that the majority of the House is against him, it is perfectly competent for him to withdraw his mea sure ; but this is not the course that ought to be pursued by a Government. They ought to know their own minds and then measures, and if they are convinced those measures are for time good of the country they ought to maintain them, and if no they ought not to have proposed them. I was suprised 1t hear my Friend, the Secretary for Ireland, the other night come forward and make the statement which he did. In the course of the last Session he stated that the Government were prepared to advance 2,000,000/. for the purpose of making rail roads in Ireland. That, no doubt, was a most beneficial pre ect, but the question was whether a Minister of the Crows 4 Ag.,_,....i.A . V :i.:._•- .' v ' 1