The Sun. — London, England, 1847-05-18 00:00:00

r 61 Y n e it B s f B f 6 ; . —m.n whose lives are one professional and septiaai 14iituotbropy—have assisted thos , a to the ear.: of the Lej slature by their sanction and tae:r .a:sauen : wen iii every urs,acii of prat: tice, clergymen of every religious persuasion. Spring ing from such a source, founded on such a basis of feel ing and opinion, it has made its way through much dir fieulty against powerful opposition, till it has obtained the sanction of an influential portion of a Cabinet, of a conclusive majority of the House of Commons, and, so supported and recommended, has reached the table of Your Lordships' House. I state there things, my Lords, not for the purpose of inducing any one of your Lordships to abdicate your privilege of free discus sion or of deliberate judgment. Latest and least of the importations to your Lordships' House, I sho u ld b e sorry to signalise my first endeavour at ad dressing your Lord s hip s by p r oposing any surrender of your independence any infraction ut your privileges. My d Lorss, the principle of this Bill has been impunged as involving legislative interference with the rights of capital anelab:sur. I might slur this objection on the ground of repeated precedent. lam prepared, however, if necessary, to contend that I am advocating nothing inconsistent with the doctrines of political economy at al l. My Lords, 1 dislike a meddling Government. I believe with them that for the creation of the greatest producible wealth in any given community, and, there fore, for the widest diffusion of that material well-being w hich attends the production of wealth, the policy of abstinence from legislative meddling is the sound policy, and, the re f ore, I think it incumbent on any ona who departs from th at po li cy to ass i gn di st i nc t gro unds f o r ls justification. The master manufacturer and the operative have both a right, I admit it, to say to me— You ar e i nterfering with my free action—you are select ing mine f rom a crowd of other occupat i ons, to ma k e i t plan ati on , the subject of expe r i men t a l l eg i s l a tion. I claim an ex conduct. I demand an exceptional reason for your My Lords, I find that justification, as most of Your Lordships will anticipate, in the inherent, inalien able tendencies of that agent which Watt forced into the service of man as applied to the four great branches of o ur textil e industry which come under the provisions of Lois Bill —I mean the tendency, i n t h e fi rst i ns t ance , attract to its ministration the labour of those " h cill, in re s p ect o f age an d sex , or b o th, nature never intended f or h ard and continuous l a b our ; an d next, in its t endency to make that labour continuous, and un ceasing, and protracted to a. limit of physical and lental e n d urance which, in my opinion, no Ch r i st i an ~noNislatura can see its subjects approach w i t h out ac wledging the duty of interferinz, if it can interfere, tor thei r relief and protection.—(Hear') It is ox this t r i r nd, my Lord s , th a t, fi n di ng as I do, with regard to ae branches of industry, the means and opportunity of interfere nce, I claim the right to exercise them. I t a l a i 3 i 7 : my Lord s , fi n di ng the means an d o pportunity, for and ; el ° is an es sent i a l e l ement o f prac ti c al interference, used : il l: l3 Y , reply to an argument which, though often seas think, singularly inconclusive to a course of Ti e in g very commonly e . l _, c I hunting down a particular grievance, and which adopted towards any man otutilea"ura to divert his attention by pointing out fifty World r objects of pursuit. My Lords, there is doubtless Wor t i r of abuse, and misery, and oppression in the fold LO make a sentimental or flighty philanthropist Lords arms in despair. My Lords, I invite your his arms to interfere with these large collected ag illiget'lcls of labour, b ecause th eor y and experience are' me you can do so with effect—because they neca:eu to insp ec ti on an d capa bl e o f con t ro l becau s e you can do much to prevent abuse, and, the n „ a e hard necessity arise, to punish it. alleg e d ware that this very feature of the case has been said as as a reason for non-interference. It has been Ouru.that the factory system is the very department of discoverable, in which abuse and oppression are most e and can least escape detection. We have 10 . n repeatedly told that we take an unphilosophical the Yiew of the effects of ti e use of machinery; that it is ,u.great dilninisher of the sum of mental and physical I bour, the fertile 801andcontentment, and that w rce of leisure e should be cautious how we meddle with its ope n!s!ions. I admit these facts; but I demand your Lord ships' attention attention to some further facts connected with the raployment of that fixed and expensive capital Pt) tie scope and effect of which it becomes a ' 4 9', from which, as a legislator, I cannot escape, so Inqui re . T here is, in my opinion, no grander result. et human intelli gence than a large cotton mill; but 1 h ay this of it, th at f rom the moment its engine is started, eased by the capital and governed by the will of the acute and enterprising individual who sits in its office, it becomes the direct interest of that presiding its motions should be genius that as unceasing and continuous ,as _human contrivance can make them, that there is no part r ef that vast system of wheels and levers which can °of Commercial without loss, or, in the ordinary and average course t.commercial prosperity, pursue its motions without P a in- The human labour attached hand and foot to that !eta for the most part admits not of relays. What lathe naturist, the inevitable consequence of this ? Why, th at Which has resulted —that with which, step by step, Fvsleutry, cautiously, effectually, and successfully, you control, endeavouring for thirty years to moderate n k ,Ci po ..:trol, in wise defiance of the abstract principles or _itch economy. That the strong impulse of gain cit ir ras , ? , f l ;: t i direct and dangerous antagonism with the in the and it almost invariably prevails left,. and hear)—as for a time it was lalion left to itself it reduces a part of your popu to the cond. •itstgate i nterest in h on of slavery, unmitigated by that t do es e Physical we ll-b e i ng o f th e p ar t y w hi c h owner opefrate on the s l ave - owner o f C arolina, or the row a on or a h unter in Leicestershire, or Rotten to — (Cheers). M y Lords, such things have been ; prevent them you have repeatedly interfered and Your labours have net been in vain. Now, my Lords, does the same reason hold good with other departments of human industry in which machinery of humumaancontrivance,ncontrivance the is less concerne d? I sa y machinery of h for I hold that, in some sense, that the clod of the valley, earth itself is a ma chine,ley, in which you drop the germ of future vegetation, is as much a machine as that in which you deposit your portions of raw cotton to be twisted and elongated. In another place, my Lords, telling I took the liberty, at the risk of some offence, of the lords of the soil that in this point of view I consi dered them as master manufacturers, and I re-assert that , opinion here. Your Lordships, in the management of hereditary estates which have descended to you from the Conquest, are working with machinery as well as M. dit r . Greg or M r . Bi r l e y ; but, my Lords, there is this fereuce b e t w een the machinery of God's contrivance and nd that of hi s crea t u res. The earth will work alone,n t e ? in h silence of night, under the stars of heavenunli by whichy your gas, unfed by your fires, admitttng atintervals,of man, taking nature indicates, the regulated assistance biro into partnership, but with no direct tendencies to Make him its slave.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Such, MY Lords, are the considerations which have induced I the repugnance individually eto overcome enter tain to meddling with concerns which, from their mag nitude and complexity, I dread to approach.—(Cheers.) Tyr objections have been taken to the measure, , main b een principal and widely distinct consequences ha tave t It is said, tt by held out as certain o ensue. striking off a twelfth from the time during which, when em ployment is rife, you are at present able to labour, 3 t .' n u will e i t h er di m i n i s h wages or incur defeat from I c Z igrt copetition. For the first of these consequences -aye a lw m ays advised those with whom I had been in Z ' l ilaluniea tion to be prepared, and I have certainly abilFs rec e i ved the answer that, to the b est of their b e n s t ",' t hey had coun ted the cost, and were prepared, on I a """ of themselves and their families, to encounter it. not fond of prophecying in matters of this descrip th if, on th e one h an d, I am no t prepare d to r i s k ,_%lasiserable v a l ue o f m y re p utat i on f or accuracy on a ulatiou of the exact effect upon wages, on the other, 'InY man to favour me with a calculation of the effected of actual domestic economy which may be her ected b.. the mother of three children who returns to home two hours sooner than at present. I cannot calculate this, because I cannot sew, I cannot darn, I cannot wash, and I cannot cook. On these matters I mstill ust refer your Lordships to your wives and servants. less can I calculate the evanescent quantities, the () MI effects of leisure and repose to the mind, or lay own in advance statistical results on bodily health or l ongevity. I have no duubt whatever that the avera e ge . aura total of these elementa, if they could be diminution culad Would show a set-off to an , probable day be satis -1)f money wages, which will one t din assing. lactory to those who have co-opera e t P I must (Hear hear.) On this subtec this measure.--. ' • also ca ll your Lordships' attention to another =cum sauce—the deductions now made when the work is b • rought in by My the operative for waste and spoil. Lord s , from such information as I can obtain, it is my firm belief that nine-tenths of that spoiled work occurs in the last weary hours of the operative's present ave• rage toil. I have never met with any mau, of any class, conversant with the subject, who has not laid much stress on this circumstance. I pass, my Lords, to the question of foreign competition. I do not profess to receive with indifference, from men for whose station, acquirements, and abilities I have profound respect, their warnings on this subject ; but I am consoled by the re flection that no step has been taken in this matter which has not been preceded by similar warnings of ruin and similar threats of emigration to those which, I doubt not, have assailed many of your Lordships as they have assailed me. And yet, my Lords, I hold in my hand a Paper which shows that England has yet held her own against the competition of the world, and which leads rise to think that if she is doomed to suffer decay, it will originate rather in a diminished supply of the raw Material than in any legislation which, for the sake of havegst interests of humanity, your orships may consented to adopt. My Lorde, I believe - that from a c oncourse of circumstances peculiar to the character of this nation, England is in a condition to set an example to the , world in this matter, as she has done in others — that tue is able to do right and fearnot ; and morethan this, that her example will be followed, and that foreign statesmen who may not be disposed to follow it will be pressed by that influence of public feeling and opinion which is acting upon ourselves.—(Cheers.) My Lords, in the course I have taken in accepting the conduct of this Bill I have undertaken a grave responsibility for its eventual Consequ ences. Sh ou ld i t prosper t o the extent of my h oles and expectations, and should I live to see that result, I r eserve to myself, as my so l e b u t a ll sufficient r eward, the gra tifi cat i on of that spectacle. Popularity I have not sought, an d utter l y disclaim. If that reward should eventually fall due, it is impossible that the intel lig dieand justice of th e peop l e s h ou ld no t place the s aon the right horse. It will be due, in the first instance, to my Noble Friend—it will be due to the master manufacturer, who has not allowed himself to be !'waged by considerations which would place his own inte rests in se em i ng, though, as I believe, delusive eon ..irasts with th ose of others. It will be due to those who fees worked through the long hours of this Bill in the norkeh op of the Legislature, and not the labourer of the elfoer so long hour, wh o now b egs your Lordships ' pardon trespassing* (Cheers.) Theon y Lr I hips' attention. — our o s Noble Earl concluded by moving the Second reading of th THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY '*E,V,ENING, MAY 18, 1847. Lord REVERSHAM said that in seconding the motion 3 Noble Friend who had just sat down. wished to make a few obseri talons upon till.; meeee re generally, A eoesiderahle body of the ind istrious and well-disposed operatives, men in favour of this measure, from a desire not only to avoid the present severe labour and its sudden alterations, but from a conviction that it was a measure which must eventually result in the ad vancement of their interest—by their eqalising the amount of labour to be distributed amongst them, and rendering their employment more constant. The ques tion of wages was one which had induced many to stand forward in opposition to this measure, who ap proved of iqt regulations as being likely to benefit the working classes. It was possible that the rate of wages might be reduced, but that would be coun teracted by the greater certainty of employment. This Bill had been brought into the other House by a gentleman who was himself deeply interes ed in the manufactures of the country. Mr. Fielding had spent a long life in the cotton manufacture, and during the course of that life he had most materially benefited the working classes, and he had brought forward this glee sure with a view of adding one more benefit to the many he had conferred upon the working classes. The opinions of this gentleman were supported by a very large number of those who were also engaged in the various manufactures of the country, and who had equally the welfare of the operatives in view. The Noble acrd then proceeded to refer at a considerable length to documents which showed that from the year 1819 to the present time the provisions of this Bill had been mat ter of agitation, not only amongst the class whom it more immediately affected, bat in the Houses of Parliament. and since that time, up to the year 1847, the consumption of cotton had increased nearly at the rate of 400 per cent. In seconding the motion for the second reading of this Bill, he was not aware of what reception he would meet with from the Hous e and from her Majesty's Go vernment, but he hoped that a measure, which was so perfectly consonant with all recognised principles of po litical economy, and so well calculated to benefit the working classes, would not be otherwise than favourably received. Lord BROUGHAM said that he was very sorry to di:eurb the unanimity of feeling which had appeared upon this question during the evening, by an expression of dissent from the measure before them. He was glad to see so large an attendance of the Right Reverend Pre lates, as this matter was one, in the discussion of which they ought to be more than usually interested ; and he trusted that he should be enabled to lay before them such views of this question as would perhaps induce them to consider it maturely before giving an assent to it. The question was not one which was merely affecting the interests of the manufacturer—it affected the condition of that great body of men who laboured for the support of these manufactures, and with whose condition and labour he had, ever since he had had the power of reasoning, maintained that they had no right of interference. There were no mysteries of political economy in science connected with this ques tion, for if any man who had formerly worked twelve hours a day were restricted to ten, it was nothing but common sense to believe that such a step would have the effect of increasing the price of manufactured com modities. He could not too highly deprecate the conduct of any man who volunteered to meddle with this vast subject, which effected thirty-seven millions of the trade of this country, and assure the world that he was so confident of kis theory that he had no doubts of its future success. There was no question which required more caution and slowness of action than this. It required the deepest and acutest circumspec tion to deal with it ; and for any man to dare to assert that there could be no soundness of the principles of the measure was really surprising. At the present moment, the manufacturing districts were overstocked with labour—they were overwhelmed with an immense body of destitute children—and their Lordships ought, there fore, to be the more cautious in the steps they took with regard to the intermeddling policy. It must not be supposed that he was the advocate of the mill - owner. On the contrary, he was speaking for those whom the millowner employed—namely, the labourers ; and on their behalf, and their behalf alone, he warned their Lordships of the direful consequences that must inevitably follow the adoption of this measure. There was, however, no ground to justify their Lordships adopting it. True, they had in terfered to a moderate extent already, but then that in terference was to get rid of a crying evil. Here, how ever, there was no such cause to justify the interference. There were no charges of cruelty brought against the millowner—there was no overworking of the labourer. He was satisfied with his present situation, but the pro moters of this Bill knew better than he did himself, and told their Lordships that he was not only overworked but excessively and cruelly overworked. Their former interference was in defence of children to prevent their being unduly employed at night, but the present Bill was not to protect the labourer but to destroy one-sixth part of the total manufactures of the country. That was the real object of the Bill, or at all events it was the direct tendency of the measure, and he put it to their Lordships whether they were prepared to strike such a blow at a branch of the trade of the country, which exported upwards of 70,000,0001. per annum, and employed upwards of a million of people. Surely such a step must considerably reduce the wages of the labourer, and yet it was said that the Bill was for his protection. For his protection, indeed I Why, he had been told upon the best authority, that if the steam-engine of a mill were stopped for repairs, but for a few hours, it had a considerable effect upon the wages o f efe feel the every labourer. reduction The that labourersm ight h i e n manufactories made iu thehours w ou of labour,was taken a en nd fr b o e m - the h pr m es a e s n te t r,s Bill the waangeds ifw otuh-lesxdipurt also toidergo profits sof a very material di m i nu ti on . M ore t h an one -sixth the masters went a wa y, the p wag 8, 7 of the man must follow. He had no doubt b u t if this Bill were persisted isnrgtuhmeyensthooufldhihsaNveohelreerrloinegudtowrheotrand just sat step s . Th e sat down— that manufacturers m si a x, n u s f e a v c e t n u , re a r n s d w t e e r n e haotursper day —was present compelled to wor k no argu ment at all in favour of the Bill. The present distress in the manufacturing districts was very great, but that surely was no reason why they should per petuate it, which would be the effect if theur to measure became law. "To belay" things, as the sailor termed it, and make no effort to change them for the better, was not the way to secure the prosperity of the manufacturing interest ; and he apprehended if they placed restriction on the hours of labour they would be only confirming the existence of the present state of things. He would ask their Lordships would the Americans, the Dutch, or the Swedes, follow . . ... their example? No, they would not; but the conse quence would be that not only those nations but the French and other continental nations would be stimu- lated to increased exertion, and would eventually suc ceed in driving them from their own markets, and anni hilate the manufacturing and commercial superiority of this country.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the moral effect of this measure he would observe that poverty and distress was as fatal to the mental and moral as it was to the physical condition of the people. Now, by taking off one-sixth part of the profits of the manufacturers, there could be no other result than a dimi nution of the bodily comforts and circumstances of the working classes. (Hear, hear.) The consequence of this would be poverty. And no more effectual means could be desired to secure the moral I degradation of the people. lie certainly did think there would be much more good sense in an eight hours' Bill, than one for ten hours. The principle was the same, and the probability was greater of effecting the object they had before thew. The man who had worked ten hours was so fatigued as to be unable to attend to what was intended - to enlighten his mind —(Hean) He (Lord Brougham) had had experience of that for twenty-five years, during which he had en deavoured to educate the labouring classes, and had been successfully defeated by sleep.—(Laughter.) But the most remarkable thing was that all the good was to be obtained at the sacrifice of one-sixth of the working man's week's wages. Mr. Arkwright, .a gentleman who possessed four mills in the North Riding of Yorkshire, hort having heard that his men . were agitating a time, his h workmen. l The fiffirasdteaandinlairgseaslt ofm i s l h l o d r e t ci t d im ed e f l o o r the long time ; the time ; and lie put one at least of the mills on short time, accordingto t s h ec e ° t n h d i ' rd by an a d l f a o r ar ge th m de aj cid ri e t d y' fo c r ho th se e t sh e ort on tiae. own election, but they had not been long undert a he di n in e i w . their arrangement till they discovered that there was nu re-considered their choice. But there was another tion of their wages. This was a new fact, and they majority. In theory it was sent up the Bill backed by au thority against this Bill. The House of Commons had Bill was rejected by March, 1844, the Twelve hours after they rejected to be reckoned the same House of Commons. Well, iu a majority of three ; shortly of 7_ not the same ma joritya Ten Hours' Bill by a majorityeither have the Ten Hours nor the Twelve Hours' Bill, andE Lau hter.) The 3d of May ; and they would n not yet been heard of. the Eleven Hours even had But the year 1846 came, good workable majority of 137. The Corn Bill had been came, and the Ten Hours' — Bill g was again rejected by a and with a split in the House. passed, and the land-men'and the wool-men pitted been one against a n oth e r. A measure affecting corn carried, and the other party were now d e t e rmined to turn e we r h e a d against the m ill s . A s h or t period of three years got a majority o f 108 f or t h e secon d re ading ; such was the unaccountable change. And was this the time when the House of Commons should come to such a conc lu sj°n ; a time when everything was threatening, and f oo d r i ots were occurr i ng i n t h e co untry ?• Was this a measure to en f orce i n t h e p res ent state of things, wh en i n our country, the other day, 200 special. constables were sworn i n, in consequence of the food riots; when th e people were craving for employment ando food, was this the time, upon speculation, upon shadows, and upon fantasy, to pass a measure which would curtail th e four great an d s t a ple manufactures of England? Nothing could injure or curtail manufactures, or in the slightest way injure :hem, that did not, of ne cessity injure man. The wool trade was one of the four that was to be struck at by this Bill. 240,000 tons were grown, and they were about to cut off one-sixth part of the labour upon it; and would not that, of necessity, cut down a part of the labour. He had heard the speeches of the Noble mover and seconder of this measure, and they were characterised by an absence of all personal reflection, and therefore bis observations did not apply to them, but to less wise men elsewhere. A measure to be worthy of the sanction and adoption of the Legislature, and to be useful must combine beneficence with benevolence. The execution of good was as essential as the will to do it, in order eff , ctually lo benefit those for whom it was designed. There were, ho admitted, thousands of poor, hard- worked, half-famished men engaged in the manu factories, and they all wished to remedy their sufferings, but their reason should be convinced of the efficacy or the measure they adopted before they passed it. They should not pass it because their feelings of compassion were roused without seeing clearly that that which was consumption of tallow, wool, and many other similar articles of manufacturing consumption, besides reducing the amount of shipping employed by this country. It was, therefore, almost impossible to calculate the in jury the passing of the Bill would inflict upon this country. This country did not depend upon the greater number of hours which her labourers worked, in competing with the foreigner, but upon the superiority of her machinery —(liear ) Well, then, if th e wor ki ng of that machinery ;ere to be reduced, what a serious effect it would have upon the export trade of the country. He, therefore, imph red their Lordships not to be led away by an impression that in passing this Bill they improved the condition of the labourer, because it was clear, that it it reduced the trade of the country, it must, as a necessary con , equence, di minish the wages of the manufacturing labourer. He thought the present time was not favourable for this experiment. He agreed with the Noble and Learned Lord that the operatives were not favourable to the Bill, and that they had never asked for it. There were mills at present working six, eight, and ten hours a day. and among the manufacturing population, this state of things was by no means satisfactory. Let them apply the rule proposed by this Bill to other classes in so ciety as well as manufacturing. Let him ask their Lord ships how they would like an Act of Parliament corn , pelliug them to dispense with the sixth of the labour of their domestic servants ? What did they think of the Legislature enforcing them, then, to accept the sixth of the labour of their own agricultural labourers ? Let him ask the Noble Duke opposite how he would like such a proposition ? The Duke of RICHMOND could see no reasonable objection to it if the half of the agricultural labourers died from excessive labour—(Hear, hear.) The Earl of CLARENDON said that that was all assumption in which he could not agree with regard to the manufacturing population. He deprecated inter ference with the income of the poor man. By this measure they were interfering with him, and were inflicting the most serious injury to the working classes of this country. For these reasons, therefore, he would record his vote against the measure. The Bishop of OXFORD would state the reasons which induced him to give his vote in favour of this measure before the House. It was contended that the supporters of this Bill were driving the manufacturers of the country abroad, and that they were interfering with the legitimate property of the manufacturers. Now, how did the case stand ? Why, this very class—the manufacturers themselves—had, to the extent of two thirds of their number, petitioned in favour of the measure. He denied that the Bill was an interference with the legitimate profits of business. It was only an interference with unsound and injurious speculation.— (Hear, hear.) It was nothing but an assumption that one-sixth of the income of the working classes would be taken away by the measure. He himself put that proposition to sums working mechanics, and was told by them in reply that that was the argument of my —(Laughter.) But what was their even aljnosrs(v-lerßtro°iutg."Tinh'ey said that they could not admit its if it was so they could not see their truth, but children growing up with their bodies wasted and their minds injured even to save that one-sixth of their income. —(Bear, hear.) The Noble Earl told them that the exported thirty-seven millions of goods annually, and that by the present Bill they would be cutting off offered to them as a remedy would really have the eff‘et one-sixth of that amount. He thought that the asser intended. He had himself seen the toils of these , unfor- tion of the two last hours of the day's labour being the I . 1311.11 en gaged e ineeitare. Fr! hr m mn the or the aufactilryr was itiourr - • • ' i n a returning to their homes torn o'tt s!x t ee n or seven. b.. •. upon too nice a e•ticulatitet. lie ttiz:t teen hours of labour, with garments drenched with per- those last two hours were not hours of profit, taxing as spiration, without even the comfort of a change of they did excessively the energies of the poor creatures clothes, or the comfort —to them a luxury—of fuel. He who were engaged at those factories, and that they were had seen these, and was not the condition of the hardest rather a drawback than otherwise on the labour of worked factory labourer to be envied by such men as the rest of the day. Those who knew their own inte these ? Their physical existence was affected, and a rests had taken this view of the matter. The Messrs. man employed as a farm labourer was at the age of 45 Marshall of Leeds, for instance, had cut off one of these as infirm as a man of 70 in the upper classes of life; and hours, and had reduced the time in their factories to if they spoke of unhealthy employment, why did they not eleven hours. In the case of another firm, which had turn their attention to other occupations far more delete- taken an account of the work done for five weeks before rious and destructive than that of factory labour. There a reduction of the hours of labour, and five weeks after were the workers in steel and brass, who lived in an atmos- wards, it was found that more work had been dune dur phere filled with the filings of the metals upon which ing the ten hours than during the twelve._(Hear, hear.) they worked, and who died at early ages from diseases A measure, the very counterpart of this, had been engendered by it. Why did they not pass such a Inca- brought forward by the late Sir Robert Peel, in 1815, sure with regard to them? Why, it would be to them and from that time to the present it had been agitating as it was to the factory labourers, an act of the grossest the public mind, and frequent attempts had been made and most cruel injustice ; and yet the workers in brass, t o o bt a i n f o r it the sanction of the Legislature. from the time of Tubal Cain downwards, were destroyed They h a d a lready made several preliminary steps which by their occupations. It was upon all these grounds, might serve to give them some experience of the opera and with many apologies for having so long detained tion of the Bill. They had passed a Bill against women them, that he asked them to refuse their assent to the wor ki ng in mines. That was against much opposition; Bill, and moved that it be read that day six months. but the result had been with increased good effect, both The Bishop of LONDON said that he felt that he to the women themselves, the subjects of that legislative laboured under a great disadvantage in following the measure, and to the masters of those mines. They had Noble Lord who had just spoken ; but he felt bound to passed a Bill limiting the time to twelve hours in those express to their Lordships his entire concurrence in the very factories, and the result had been so far measure which they had then under discussion, and beneficial. The result must be good. The want which had been so ably attacked by the Noble Lord who of the measure was evinced by dire effects had just sat down. He gave his assent to the measure on the physical and moral condition of the without the smallest feeling of doubt upon his mind labourers.—(Hear.) It became then not a question of that the grounds upon which it was proposed were wealth or loss. Wealth so gained was unlawfully unsafe or unsound.—(Hear, hear.) He was ready gained, and therefore the Legislature could not sanction to admit as a general principle, that they should not in- it by refusing to interfere. But why were the capitalists terfere with the free competition for labour ; but there i able to impose the amount of labour? That was the were circumstances which might warrant such an inter- question of the Noble Earl (Clarendon). He answered, ference, and render it necessary. lie thought that it that the alternative offered them was no work at all? was the duty of a Government to protect the interests Long hours or no work—such was the alternative, the of any large class of the community when it was likely dire alternative, offered to the needy workman, and to suffer, and to remove, as far as it could, any evils could their Lordships doubt which he must choose ? which pressed upon them unnecessarily. It was with How, then, if their Lordships did not interfere, were regard to the large body of children employed on fee- they to retrieve themselves ?—how, but by corn tory labour, that he thought this measure most parti bitting against their masters. Were their Lord cularly deserving of their Lordships' attention. The ships prepared for that result, and the attendant physical condition, and the moral condition of the evils? Were they prepared to encounter these, or to drive children were objects to which their attention ought to be the stay of the country—the labouring classes—from directed in whatever occupation they were engaged. j their shores to a foreign land? On what did their supe- The Noble Lord had painted to them in glowing colours riority as a manufacturing nation rest ? On these two the miseries suffered by the agricultural labourer, but things—the security in this country of all vested pro • he (the Bishop of London) thought that the picture was perty; and, 2d, the physical strength of the people, and overdrawn. The agricultural labourer could breathe their patience in attending upon machinery. Were they the pure air, and see the clear light of Heaven, and he prepared to drive the population to that extremity that could at any time suspend his toil—even though it were the manufacturer should be in dread of seeing his pro only for a few minutes—so as to prevent that exhaustion perty in flames; or to countenance a system which as of strength and spirits which continuous labour would certainly reduced their physical strength as it existed, necessarily entail. The factory labourer, on and thereby to cut off the right hand of their strength the contrary, was shut up in a close factory, and their greatness ? He trusted their Lordships would and could not rest for a moment. The ma- better consider the results of their decision ere they came chinery was kept continuously in motion, for a given to a vote upon the Bill. number of hours, and a given amount of work was to Lord BROUGHAM explained. be done. This had its natural effect upon the labourer; Lord WHARNCLIFFE—The question before them and was marked by the exhausted spirit, the debilitated now was not a new one. It was important, and it had frame, and the early death. It was a fact, notorious to occupied an important space on the attention of the all in the manufacturing districts, tho labour caused a Legislature ; it had come before them in 1801 ; it had fearfully increased number of deaths. The average du- been taken up again in 1815 ; it was again before Par ration of human life, in the manufacturing districts, liament in 1831, in 1844, and 1846. During all that was one-half shorter among the factory labourers than time public opinion had grown ; the votes of the other amongst the other operative classes. This was not the House of Parliament and public sentiment had both only evil which arose; for, with the children employed, progressed, till, when the Bill was before the other not only physical weakness, but a want of mental cul- House of Parliament, petitions were presented with tivation was the consequence. Before they reached the 178,000 signatures, while only something like 1,000 age of thirteen, they might, perhaps, be sent to an were sent in against it. The Noble Lord, who spoke evening school ; but after thirteen a double amount of throughout in a very low tone of voice, concluded by labour was thrown upon them, and their physical stating that he would support the Bill. powers being too much exhausted during the day, to The Bishop of ST. DAVIDS regretted to rise at that admit of their attending an evening school, they lost all late hour of the night, or to weaken the effect of the elo that they had learned. It might be argued that this in- quent and tender address of the Right Rev. Prelate who terference would—pro Canto—injure either the working had preceded him. But some things had struck his mind classes, by reducing their wages, or the property of the with great power, and he hoped he might be allowed manufacturer. That argument was not borne out by shortly to address their Lordships. He agreed with the facts which had already existed ; for the former many things which had fallen from the Noble and Factory Bill had produced neither any serious di- Learned Lord, and yet he felt compelled to give his vote minution of the produce of woollen goods, or in in support of the motion by the Noble Earl (El the wages paid to the operative.—(Hear. hear.) lesmere). There was one thing which fell from His Noble and Learned Friend had told their Lord- the Noble and Learned Lord which seemed to him to ships that the adoption of this Bill would considerably have no foundation whereon to rest. Ile said that this reduce the manufacturing produce of the country. Now was a subject on which legislation could not interfere. it was a well known fact that from the best and purest Why ? Ou what did he rest the assertion ? Was the motives a large number of mill-owners had long ago Legislature a body less free from sinister motives,or more prescribed the short hour system in their own eeta- likely to be moved by a bias ? Did the Noble and blishments with the greatest success. Now was that a Learned Lord say so on the authority of what he con sufficient answer to the argument of his Noble and ceived to be the principles of Political Economy ? Learned Friend. In his own humble judgment it was, What was the principle of Political Economy ? for he could not believe that the mill-owner to whom he Why, that the Legislature should not in had alluded could be so blind to their own interests terfere with free industry. But hero lay thi ns to continue the system they ha 1 commenced fallacy. It was assumed that industry was free. if it reduced their trade. Now, the truth was, it had In going back into the history of the factory system, produced no such effect. It had improved the condition the y could not den y but that great abuses had existed, of their labourers, both in mind and body, and the result and that many of the manufacturers had not done that had been that the former productions of their mills had towards the working population which was desirable on not been reduced by the disinterested step they had their part to do. No doubt circumstances had done taken. There could be no doubt that, at the present much to cause them to pursue the course which they moment, the manufacturing interest was suffering from had done ; bat on that very account he thought that in the severest privations, and yet the labourers employed terference was required, in order to put an end to the by that interest, were patient and contented under their evils and abuses which existed in the system. In the sufferings, and he was therefore glad, that in course of the present debate, the Noble and Learned supporting this measure, Government had showed Lord opposite (Lord Brougham) had endeavoured to that they sympathised with them in their sufferings. In alarm them with a fearful picture of what was to follow conclusion, he had only to assure their Lordships that he if the measure passed—that wages would be reduced, believed tbis measure would add to tb.. 'ailuence of this profits would fall, and general distress overtake the ma country, and improve the sons of toil, and it was upon nufacturing districts. Now to that he (the Bishop o that ground he supported it. St. David's) would answer, that those who had fully con- The Duke of RICHMOND would not have risen had sidered the question, and who well knew the nature of it not been for one or two remarks which had fallen from this branch of industry, declared that this was a his Noble and Learned Friend who had addressed their a gross exaggeration, and that the estimate of the evils Lordships at so much length. His Noble and Learned apprehended had no foundation whatever in fact. Not Friend had told them that the majority of the mill only the most intelligent of the working population, but owners were opposed to this Bill. Now that was not the many of the greatest manufacturers of the country had case. The mill-owners were supporters of this Bill, wet these objections, and shown that they were falla• and although he entertained the utmost disrespect cious and unsound. Though it had been said that this for the mill-owners or the Anti-corn-law League's would be a perilous experiment, he contended that the support, h e cordially agreed with them in supporting peril was all on the side of the system the Bill sought to this measure. His Noble and Learned Friend had told amend, and he therefore called on their Lordships to act them that an agricultural labourer was not so strong as on the humane peinciple to labour. His objection any one of their Lordships who had reached the age of the greatest number,andsecond reading of support the seventy. Now, if his Noble and Learned Friend wished the Bill.—(Cheers.) o interference the of age, who would carry anybeware es by injudicious it, he could produce an agricultural labourer from Lord ASHBURTON Sussex, of forty-five years lest ay working one of their Lordships upon his back without any diffi- the bread of a culty, and in his opinion few Noble Lords couldaccom. engaged in factorygreat body of the working population called on their Lordships to plish such a feat as that.—(Great laughter.) to the present measure was, that they Lord CLARENDON felt constrained o oppose this perfect knowledge were proceeding with most im measure, because he felt that it would oppress and consider the greatest t they eytook happinessasi Injure those who were to be benefited by it rather Might Reverend Prelate r than improve their condition.—(Hear, hear.) But per authorities to decide the question, and he, for P • with that result, but it would inflict a serious injury and sentiments of the he felt that it would not only be attended had been ' taken one, would have been glad if steps population referred to by the case of cruelty or injustice on the part of the employer had to submit to the i upon the trade of the country. Besides, there was no present time the man et. master manufacturers. At the t irfire more fully into the feelings made out for this Bill, and considering that at this markets of the world, and e t e h n e e y st manufacturing producer of this country petition in all the moment the factory labourer did not on the average work ere they aggravated that more than eleven hours per day at very easy work, he contained a clause for elevenstate of things. Had the Bill sup thought there was no necessity fur their Lordships fur- ported it, but as it did not c h they interfering in the progress of the trade of the vote for the amendment of t ours, he would have us ntain such a clause, h oh N ou o co b g m l h e t atehderLefeoarreeeto pause country. There could be no doubt that the Bill, if it The gallery was then cleared for a division d , eL w mohredn. were passed, would materially reduce the manufac- there appeared— turing productions of the country, and it mu s t, For the second reading of th e Bi ll, therefore, of necessity, reduce trade, and see- Contents , .................................. 53 ing that, as in former instances, there was no Against the Bill ..... 11 Majority for the crying evil to be put down by the Bill, he could ...... second reading......................... —42 nat conscientiously give it his support. But be- Their Lordships then adj ourne d at a Quarter pas fore their Lordships gave their assent to this Bill, it Twelve o'clock. was their duty to consider what effect it would have upon other branches of trade than manufacturers. In the first place, a reduction of the hours of labour, from twelve to ten hours, would largely reduce the consump tion of coal in this country. It would also reduce the SOUSE OF COMMONS, May 17. SCHOOLS OF DESIGN. Mr. WAKLEY said there was a second question, and he hoped he should have a more satisfactory answer than to the first. It was with reference to the school of design, and he wished to know when the evidence taken before a Special Committee of the council of th ,, SeltoA of Design, as to the state and management of the ichou!, is to be presented to the House? Mr. M. GIBSON said that he regretted that such delay had taken place, but he thought that in ten days at furthest he might be able to furnish these returns. Mr. H. BAILLIE said that he had asked the Govern ment the other night, whether it was their intention to restrict the amount of grain in distilleries until the pre• sent crisis should be past? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the Government did not think it pohtio on their part to interfere with the commerce of the country, by placing any restriction upon one of its most important channels. Ho found that the distillers had stated to the Government, that they were about to use a large quan tity of sugar for the purposes of distillation, and had requested that several of the preliminary investigations might be dispensed with. Under his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) direction, it had been notified that all coffee, was to be eere and other articles easu re the obstacles that could be dispensed with sh ou ld b e re moved, for he considered it exceedingly desirabl e . :z whether of tea, Mr. HUME said that this day week he would p u t a question to the Noble Lor d at th e head of the Govern ment, as to whether it w as his i ntention to t a k e any m any reduction of the du t y ? Th e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sa i d that the Government h ad received notice that a consi derable quantity of molasses was required for distilla• tion ; but there had been a consideration of other arti cles, with a view to ascertain whether they should re duce the duties on other articles mentioned in the Cus toms Duties Act, and they had found that although the importation of the articles bad increased, the prices had not been raised. Among those especially were the arti cles of sugar and tea. ENLISTMENT OF MARINES . Captain LAYARD moved for returns connected will the enlistment of marines during the last five ye ars . Mr. EWART wished to know whether the Noble Lord at the head of the Government had any objection to lay upon the table of the House the address of the board of wine-growers, presented a short time back ? Lord J. RUSSELL replied that there would be no objection whatever. COLONIAL GOVERNMENTS. Mr. HUME said he wished to ask the Under-Secre tary for the Culonics a question, of which he had given notice. It would be remembered that last session he presented a petition from Van Diemen's L and, signed by 6,000 persons, pr a y in g the House to apply the repro scntative system of government to that island. Now the question he wished to ask was, whether Government had been m:tturing any plan for extending the privilege and rights of representative bodies to that island and th, other colonies ? Mr. HAVES said, in answer to the question of his Hononourable Friend, he had to state that the subjeet to which he had referred had not been lost sight of. There was a measure in contemplation—hemieht say, in preparation—with the view to give the hmetits of Briti , h Constitution to the Australian cohbete-t, which had generally included Van Diemen's Lard. H.• di not think, however, that the measure could be intr.- duced in the present se:;sion. TRANSPORTATION. Mr. EWART asked the lion. Gentleman the Seere t,ty r..r sac , C,iunies Gc,voria:m , ffi; had ari3 lU t , n - tion of reviirig: the pre:L.:nt system of traT - :gportl4tion. with a view to an alteration in the law? Mr. HAWES said the subject would shortly come under discussion in that House, when his Noble Friend the First Lord of the Treasury would be prepared to state fully what his intentions were. CORN RETURNS, Mr. P. MILES said, in the early part of the session he moved for certain corn returns in continuation of those which had been annually laid before the House for many years past. It was, however, communicated to him, that an addition he had made to the return would cause a delay in making the return, and ho intimated to the corn-inspector that he would not press for that part of the return. Still, the return was not forthcoming, and he therefore wished to ask the Hon. Gentleman (the Vice-President of the Board of Trade) whether the return would shortly be laid upon the table of the House ? Mr. MILNER GIBSON said the order was made upon the Treasury, and not upon the Board of Trade ; but, nevertheless, he would make inquiry into the cause of the delay. POOR-LAWS. On the order of the day being read for the second reading of the Poor-law Administration Bill, Mr. FERRAND asked the Chancellor of the Ex chequer whether the private defence of the Poor-law Commissioners to the charges brought against them before the Andover Union Committee (intitled, " Let ters addressed by the Poor-law Commissioners to the Secretary of State, respecting the transaction of the business of the Commission, &c., &c., &c.," embellished with the Royal Arms, and " printed by W. Clowes and Sons, Stamford-street, for her Majesty's Stationery Office)," has been printed and circulated with the sanc tion of her Majesty's Government ;—if printed and cir culated with the sanction of her Majesty's Government, whether he intends the expense to be defrayed out of the public purse ;—if printed and circulated at the pub lic expense, whether he will lay upon the table of the House a statement of the expense ? The defence, the Hon. Member asserted, contained most unjust calumnies and flagrant untruths, and had not only been circulated amongst Members of that House, but had been for warded to different tradesmen throughout the country. He held in his band, for instance, a copy which had been sent to a tradesman in Oxford-street. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, with regard to the first question, the Poor-law Commis sioners were called upon by his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department to make a defence in answer to certain inquiries which he had caused to be instituted into their proceedings, and the Commissioners made what the Hon. Gentleman called a private defence, which was comprised in certain letters which were laid upon the table of the House. He did not think, therefore, that the defence could be strictly called a private one. It was certainly true that the let ters had been published and circulated by the Commis sioners, and it had been done by the consent of the Go vernment. With regard to the second question, he cer tainly thought the expense ought to be defrayed out of the public funds, because, in publishing the correspon dence, the Commissioners had only to act in conformity with their usual practice in such matters. POOR LAW IRELAND. Mr. P. SCROPE desired to ask the Secretary f.ir Ireland, whether he was prepared to lay upon the table of the House any statement as to the progress of the system of relief in Ireland under the Temporary Relief Act ? He also wished to know, whether there was any compulsory power to compel the Relief Com mittee to do their duty, and in cases where they would not do so, to discharge them and appoint fresh officers? The Honourable Member adverted to a charge made against Lord Berehaven, that there had been great destitution on his estate, and that he only subscribed twenty shillings a month, and that he subsequently withdrew that relief altogether, confining himself for ten months to the inside of his demesne, the gates of which were strictly lucked. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that there would be a report laid upon the table of the House which would give his Hon. Friend all the information he desired, he 'NJ's anxious to say that it was no fault of Sir John 3ur goyne that a great many evils had occurred, it was quite true there was great indisposition on the part of many Relief Commissioners to aid the Government, and the people themselves desired to return to the ancient system uf road begging. In conclusion he would only say that fr, on his knowledge of Lord Berehaven, he would not believe that he had been guilty of such inhumanity as that stated by the Hon. Member. That NoMe Lord had expressed to him such a concern for the poor in his iltighbourhood, that he could not come to any other Mr. SHAW said that he was quite sure that Lord Berehaven could perfectly clear himself of such a charge. And on the part of the Irish proprietors, be would say that the Member for Stroud took advantage in that House to say things which he could not justify out of it. Mr. B. OSBORNE said that it was rather hard to blame the Hon. Member for Stroud for his observations on the Irish landlords, for such a course was so popular, that it was not to be wondered at. WARNER'S EXPERIMENT. Lord INGESTRE said, with reference to an answer from a Member of the Government respecting Captain Warner's invention, he would say that he himself was a witness of the late experiment, and he wholly disagreed in the unfavourable opinion which was given of it. NEW POOR-LAW BILL. Mr. FERRAND, on the order of the day for the second reading of the New Poor Law Bill being read, asked the Law Officers of the Crown, by what authority Par liament is invested with the right to delegate to any person, or body of persons, the power of making rules and orders which shall be as binding and authoritative upon the people of England and Wales as an Act of Parliament ? If Parliament is not thus authorised, by what statute can the people of England and Wales be forced to obey, as law, the rules and orders of the Poor law Commissioners ? If there be no statute, have not all persons committed to prison for disobeying the rules and orders of the Poor-law Commissioners been illegally deprived of their liberty? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that Parliament had an inherent right to delegate its power to any person or persons in such a manner as should be binding upon the people. He mentioned courts of law, and other tribunals, as instances where this power had been exercised. Sir JOHN WALSH desired to ask the Member for Stroud whether he had communicated with Lord Bere haven relative to the charge he brought against him. Mr. P. SCROPE replied that he had not, and that it was objected to mention anonymous cases. He would be quite happy if Lord Berehaven was enabled through his means to justify himself, for the present was not the first time such charges had been made. THE MOTT CASE. Mr. FERRAND desired to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the appointment of Mr. Mott to the office of district auditor received the sanction of the Poor-law Commissioners after he had been dismissed from the office of Assistant Poor-law Commissioner ? Whe ther the Poor-law Commissioners allowed him to hold the office of district auditor at the time that he was part proprietor of the Haydock Lodge Lunatic Asylum, or after the Commissioners in Lunacy declared, in their report on the state of the Haydock Lodge Lunatic Asylum, that Mr. Mott had failed to fulfil a positive and solemn pledge which he had given to the justices of Lancashire, and that he appeared quite unworthy of the trust, and became most negligent and remiss in the discharge of his functions? Whether they have al lowed him to hold the office of district auditor of Lanca shire, whilst living in the Isle of Man, out of the way of his creditors; after he was seized by a sheriff's officer, when on his read to audit the union accounts; during the time he was a prisoner in Lancaster Castle; and after a public advertisement appeared in the Times newspaper, warning the public not to pay him money belonging to the proprietors of the Haydock Lodge Lunatic Asylum? Whether he has again abandoned the discharge of his duties, and left England, although holding the office of district auditor? Sir G. GREY said Mr. Mott had not been dismissed, nor had he ceased to hold the situation referred to. There had been 37 candidates for the situation, from whom two had been selected. At the election made by the guardians there had been ten votes for Mr Gardiner ,and fourteen for Mr. Mott. The Act of Parliament did not require the sanction of the Poor law Commissioner to the election ; nor was it considered th a t hi s manage ment' of the Haydock lodge Lunatic Asylum was a legal disqualification to his holding the office. That part of the question which referred to th e j us ti ces having de ; Glared him unworthy of his trust was no t correct and further, the Poor-law Commi ss i oners h a d no official in formation of the allegations in th e third part o' the question ; and with regard t o th e f ourt h , the Poor-law Commissioners had received letters from Mr. Mott. upon official business, from Manchester, dated the 7th May, where they beli e v e d hi m t o b e at present re siding. POOR-LAW ADMINISTRATION BILL. The Order of the Day for the second reading of the Poor-law Administration Bill being read, Mr. BANKES presented a petition from a union in Dorsetshire, complaining of the conduct of the auditor for neglect of duty, and that they had received no re dress from the Poor-law Commissioners. The petition was ordered to lie on the table. Mr. FERRAND said he was thankful to his Right Hon. Friend, the Attorney-General, for the manly man ner in which he had answered his question. Notwith standing, however, the high respect which he enter tained for the legal knowledge of his Learned Friend, he would be enabled to produce much higher authority to bear out his own view of the case. He could not but express his astonishment at the declaration made by the Right Honourable Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department, that Mr. Mott had not been dismissed particularly when it had been stated by the Right Hon. Baronet who had preceded the Home Secretary in that office, had declared that he had been dismissed, and that the Hon. Member for Bolton knew the cause why he had been removed. He would leave that between t w h r e o m ng ; but he could . a but observe that something had been said to one or the other of them. He was ready to admit that the Right Hon. Baronet had sa id what he believe d to be true. At the close of last session the present Secretary for the Home Department had give a pledge that a Committee would be appointed in the present session to inquire into the poor-laws. Sir GEORGE GREY denied that he had given any such pledge. Mr. FERRAND said there could be no doubt that he had been so reported in all the papers. The Noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury, had also declared that he was prepared to defend the conduct of the Poor-law Commissioners. He would that night have an opportu nity- of doing it. He hoped he would do so, and pruve that the new poor law had obtained for the people the b i e , s i n gs which were held out would follow in its train— that it had been a blessing, aad not a curse. Re, at all events, could prove it had failed in conferring any such advantages, and that it was a complete failure, urcl iltiU crumbled into s, people of this c , :untr) I(z,d i o acenstowed to boast, that they were Lieber callecl upon to obey any law which was not passed by both branches of the Legislature, but notwithstanding, they had been obliged, now for thirteen years, to obey the orders of the Peor-law Com missioners, as the law of the land. A Committee o f that House had been appointed to inquire into the operation of that law, and after having sat for four months, they came to the decision that the Poor-law Commissioners had acted in a most arbitrary manner towards the As sistant Poor-law Commissioners. He thought it was not sufficient that the Poor law Commissioners should be dismissed, but that the law should be repealed. When the law was first broached It was supported by men whose object was to do away with poor-laws altogether, and to punish poverty as a crime. The person who first brought it forward was Lord Brougham, who, be fore he introduced it obtained a pledge from both the political parties that they would not repeal what ever might be the extent of the opposition raised against it. He would ask, who had been selected to guide the Bill ? No other than Mr. Malthus, a man whose opinions on the subject was odious to the country.—(An Hon. Member said he was dead.) Well, then, he left his legacy behind him. He was Lord Brougham's guide in this measure. He who had de clared that he who was not provided with necessaries by his parents, had no right to food ; that no place had been provided for him at Nature's feast, and that he had no right to be there. Lord Brougham defended this gentleman, and stated that he had been greatly misrepresented, and that he was a most humane and amiable man. A Commission was then appointed to inquire into the old poor-law, and evidence taken by Assistant Poor-law Commissioners, who knew what was required of them, and did what they were ordered, as obedient servants. Then came forth the re port, that " dark document," which was so bad and wicked, that the Duke of Wellington denied its existence. It was opposed by a friend of his, now on a bed of sick ness (Mr. Walter), whose services would last for cen turies, when the ,Hogg Baronetcy would be buried in oblivion.—(Partial murmurs.) That document had been signed by two of the bishops of their church, the Bishops of London and Chester. Lord Althorp introduced the Bill into that House, which gave power to the Poor. law Commissioners to limit the amount of food, but not to increase it, and also to lower wages. In the correspondence of Messrs. Ashworth and Gregg, it appeared that the guardians, in a case of a strike for wages, were authorised to refuse relief if they knew the parties could earn wages upon which they Gould earn a subsistence. As soon as the New Poor-law Bill passed, the Poor-law Commissioners employed persons as Assistant-Commissioners, whom they sent to the agricultural districts to induce the people to leave their homes, assuring them that if they did so, they should have abundant employment in the manufacturing districts. They placarded places with tables of wages, which they never did, and it was never intended that they should receive. One of the blackest things they did was to send Dr. Kay down to Suffolk and Norfolk to induce the labourers to go to Manchester, where they sent them ticketed and labelled, like beasts to the slaugh ter. But, as his Right Hon. and Learned Friend (the Attorney-General) seemed to smile, he thoug ht it his duty to reiterate what he h a d sa id : t h e labourers sent to Manchester were actually ticketed, packed in boats, and without any places to go to, turned adrift in the streets of Manchester in the middle of the night. But they should now hear Dr. Kay's own description of this town three years before. In describing it, he said that the inhabitants had ceased to have a pride in the ap pearance of their houses. They spent their lives in squalid wretchedness—their domestic economy was neglected—their houses were ill furnished and ill ventilated their food meagre, and not nutri tious, and they frequently , fell victims to drink. Such was the description of Manchester, when the inha bitants of the southern districts of England were to be absorbed into the workshops of the manufacturers. He would detail to the House the cruelties inflicted upon those agricultural labourers. Not content with calling in the military, the Government sent down the Metro politan Police, and there, with drawn cutlasses they sought to enforce those tyrannical laws. They sold up thousands of the poor people. Immense buildings were erected in the county as modern bastiles, where they were immured in cells, not allowed to go a place of worship, their diet tables were worse than those of felons, they were com pelled to wear a felon's dress, and they branded their clothes with the name of " the union workhouse" upon it, heir furniture was sold, husbands were separated from their wives, and children stolen from their parents at the point of the bayonet. The union workhouses were cleared, and its inmates sold to the manufacture's. He held in his hand au application of one of the manu facturers for these poor people to the guardians of the poor of the Llangollen Union, dated only twelve months since, in which the applicant stated that he had employment in his mills for twenty or thirt y females, and also a number of boys, and stating that it there were any in the union fit for such employment, one of the firm would come over to the union and bring those unfortunate creatures to the factory districts. And who were the parties who were chosen to look over those unfortunate creatures? Why, it was a well-known fact that if the Government could offer the office, a non-com missioned officer of the cavalry, whose previous occupa tion might be supposed to have inured him to wretched ness or made his heart callous, was the person whose services they were most glad to obtain. These unions were formed so large that the poor had to travel to the board of guardians ten, twenty, and even thirty miles, in order to obtain their paltry pittance. Such was the distance they had to travel that it often occupied three whole days in going and returning from the union. He held in his hand a letter from a clergyman. in which he stated that he knew a poor man who had to travel 24 miles every week in order to obtain even a sixpence. Then, in addition to this, the poor have died in numbers from want and improper medical treatment.—(Hear, hear.) Aye, numbers have died from those sources under the sanction of the Poor-law Commissioners and the Government. Such were some of the horrible effects of this blood-stained law—for such it was. Yes, blood had been shed, and that too at the point of the bayonet, in the endeavours of the Government to en force the cruelties of that law. He would read to the House the solemn pledges made by Lord Brougham when he pleaded in the House of Lords for the second reading of this ini quitous Bill. (The Hon. Member then proceeded to read an extract from the speech of the Noble Lord, in which he stated that that measure would elevate the character of the people of this country, give a new im pulse to property, and destroy idleness and vice.) How had. (continued the Hon. Member) these pledges and promises been realised ? The people had been robbed and plundered under the operation of that law for upwards of thirteen years. Was it to be supposed now that the curtain wag allowed to descend quietly over those scenes of horror, of blood, and of cruelty ? If the Government was prepared to take upon itself the responsibility of all these accumulated cruelties, They certainly possessed more courage and bravery than he had ever given them credit for possessing. Before the passing of this law the people were promised good wages ; neat, good, and comfortable houses. But what was the result, as appeared by the statements of thi lion. Member for Manchester some time since? He sap that the people of Manchester were some of theta living upon Id. per day ; that they were iu thi habit of eating dead horses, and so poverty striken were great masses of the people, that the) were in the habit of pawning their day clothes in the evening in order to obtain their bed clothes from th , pawnbroker's to cover them at night. He had thought it his duty to move some time since for a return of th mode in which the poor had been disposed of; and although that return had been ordered, still not thi. slightest notice had been taken of that order, and th reason given for it was that no possible account could be obtained, and no return had been made from that day to this. In the year 1843 the poor-law had been ie operation nine years. Now, what was the effect of this law upon the morals, the condition, and the habits of the people ? That law, which had been pledged to produce such beneficial results ? He begged to read to the House a statement, made by one of the pre sent Cabinet Ministers. Lord Howick, when a Memb,r of this House, stated that in Sunderland the poor-rat..s bad risen to 18s. in the pound. (The Hon. Member then proceeded to read at considerable length an extract from a speech of Lord Howick.) What a contrast (con tinued the Hon. Member) did that statement present tk the fair pledges and promises made by Lord Brougham and others, when the measure was introduced. 11l would, therefore, convict the Government of havi4 been false prophets out of the mouth of one of thi members of their own Cabinet. He would also read ti the House a statement made by Lord Brougham in the year 1843, nine years after the passing of the Act, in order to show to the House in what manner the operation of the law had borne out the pledges and promises of its supporters. The Hon. Gentleman then read an extract from the Times of 1843, stating that a great number of the pi (or of Stourbridge were subsisting upon turnips alone, ane that the farmers in the neighoourhood had bad five or six tons a week stolen; but they were in such a deplor able state that the persons could not find it in their hearts to prosecute them. He held in his hand an account of proceedings which took place in the same year at the Brentford Sessions, before the magistrates of the county of Middlesex. A poor man was brought up before them in the prison dress, and branded in the way he had mentioned. The magistrates, and five or six were present, all spoke with indigestion of the manner in which the poor were treated under the sanction of the Peor-law Commissioners, and one of them, Mr. Armstrong, stated that the country was coming back to the times of feudal slavery, and he was glad to find that the members of the Bench were unanimous in deprecating the conduct which the Commissioners pursued towards the poor. He also had a number of extracts which he had culled from country newspapers d ur i ng the years 1842 and 1843, which gave an account of the manner in which large numbers of persons were sent t, prison for merely disobeying the orders of the Poor law Commissioners, but he would not take up th e ti me of the House by reading thsnsem,sebeyon beyond London, and stating that they K ha e d n t especial y, reference nn d Hampshire, Essex, respect Unions. The Andover, Redbridge, and Leve h ho a a l k so s U w the working classes in that vi c i nity ment of the poor in the Tne t t o r etahte their way Union so exasperated to the union ( which was protected by police) vicinity that they were on with pickaxes in their hands, when they were met by a , clergyman, who said address :‘ Honest !" He replied, the in la g w o w ne o , u :: H al o l n o e w s t us m t a o n b ! . honest ; when we come poor we are treated like felons." He, however, dissuaded them from their purpose. Thi s occurred as far back as in 1842. And her Majesty ' Government said, after all that had occurred, that t h e law worked well, and they screened the poor -la w COM missioners against public inquiry and publie indignation, and aided and assisted them in oppressing the poor ; for whenever any thing was said against the Poor-law Com missioners. the Nnble T,Ard rcss:_ , with great chivalr, (1 , -1,11:1Qd them ; and when U irate Secretary for the Departnicnt (Sir J. Gr L.l - 2) berfi7l .• ..,G, ahle esith resie t ts • (ac', 1 Lord got up and proteeteo agates . , aey aiteis-aion its :tie law, and his sentiments were loudly cheered. " Unitor mity of practice" was, no doubt, a grand principle ; but it was one which had been tested and had been found of law. personsueonce attended fallacious. No w h e (alr. Ferrand) had seen the who on had been a jury, en starved to death b by odie thsis who felt desirous to return a verdict of " wilful murder " against the relieving officer, and the coroner agreed with them, because it was w,-ii hoown to them that the man had refused to afford the wocaan eho had died relief ; but when the man was taxed with this, he drew the printed instructions of the Pour-law Commissioners from his pocket and threw them on the tabe, and in the most insulting manner snapped his fingers at the jury. Sir GEORGE GREY—What was the nature of those instructions? Mr. FERRAND said he had not got a copy of them, but they were to the effect, that the man was not to go a y yard o T ut he of w h h i m s p an ari li sh ve f d or hh the th p e ur h p t o h s e e r osifdeo a dispensingbrook, re lief.about ten yards out of the parish, but she had often re ceived relief from the same officer ; he , however, was only in the habit of visiting that part of his dis trict once a week. Then the auditors had caused the greatest dissatisfaction to the board of guardians, evils which the auditors caused. The relieving Every post brought him letters setting forth the officer of Dudley had brought an action against the guardians of the poor, for treating the inmates of the union to "plum-pudding" on Christmas-day. In 1845, the Hon Gentleman the Member for Finsbury (Mr. Wakley) Game down to the House, and made a horrible and startling statement, that it was currently reported that the poor in the Andover Union Work house were so starved, that they were living on carrion, and fighting for the possession of the bones which they were employed in grinding for the purpose of manure. He now came to 1847—and where, he asked—e here were the Poor-law Commissioners who had caused all this cruelty and misery ? The Government said that they were to be dismissed from their offices, but the Government were still prepared (in a state of despair) to defend them. Why did they do so ? Was it because they believed that the charges which had been made against them were untrue ? Could they deny the state of things which existed in the Andover Union, or the statements which he had made that night, could they believe that the voice of the people throughout the country would have been raised against them if they had ' not been guilty of all that had been imputed to them ? What did the Right Hon. Baronet say in introducing the present Bill ? Did he say that they must adopt " uniformity of practice ? " No ; that the operation of of the measure must vary with the circumstances of the district of the country to which it was applied. Was "uniformity of practice " still to be the principle of the measure ? Sir G. GREY—I did not say so. Mr. FERRAND—Then is it now to vary? But did the. Government think that men had not the same love for their wives and children in one part of the county as in another, that concessions were to be made in favour of the northern part of that county, in consequence of the violence which they had manifested towards the measure. He called upon them, therefore, to say how the measure was to vary ? They had no right to pass such a law ; and, what was more, the people of this country would not tolerate a varying law under which the greatest tyranny might be inflicted upon them. In some parts of the county they said that no relief was to be given except in the workhouse, but he had heard a Secretary of State state that the people might have relief out of the workhouse. There tore, he said, let them have a law clearly defined, in order that the poor might know how they would be affected, and what cruelties they might anticipate would be practised upon them, instead of leaving the mat ter in tho hands of an irresponsible board. He had read the defence which had been made of the Poor-law Com missioners, but it did not deserve the name which bad been applied to it, as it was nothing more than an exparte statement: it amounted to this, that after thirteen years of oppression of the poor they had been enabled to save 1,000,0001. a year, of which the poor nad been robbed, in order that the commissioners might be enabled to make this boast. They might have saved the rates in the south of England, where incen diarism was rife, and in those districts from which the poor had been driven, to the manu facturing districts, to equalise wages, or to escape persecution by becoming inmates of the gaols, but in the north of England the very converse had oc curred. The guardians of Wakefield, thinking that it would be no use to petition the House on the subject of the poor-law, as Parliament had delegated its powers to three Commissioners, petitioned the board, and urged that the Wakefield Union should he abolished, as it had been productive of the greatest evil, as the poor rates had increased 10,306/. in three years.—(l-rear.) That was the way they diminished the expenditure.— (Hear, hear.) We had also returns from the unions in his part of the country, but it was sufficient to state that they had increased, and were increasing.—(Hear.) Then what was the other cost of this unconstitutional measure during the last 13 years ? First, they had had the re bellion in Wales, fearful outbreaks in the north of Eng land, incendiarism rife in the south, and a fearful amount of concealments of childbirth, in order that they might escape the treatment which they could not fail to ex pe rience in the unions. They had had to establish rttral police in different parts of the country, to call out 10,000 pensioners, to have gaols enlarged and new ones erected ; the sessions in the north of England were held every seven weeks, instead of every twelve weeks, and winter sessions were obliged to be held, which was rather an unusual occurrence, and Mr. Justice Coleridge had stated at the last York assizes that crime was rapidly in creasing over the whole country. Then they were going to build barracks in Birmingham, in order that they might be enabled to dispatch the military to any part at a short notice in order to keep the people in a state of despotism. Consideration had caused this? Why, the tyranny praetised upon the people by the Poor-law Commissimer, for they had the people discontented in the north, in the south, and east districts ; and the peace was only main tained by the presence of the military and police. Wosrk houses had been erected under the protection of a mili tary guard, and they had greater distress in tbeis country than they had had since the time of the French Revolution. These were the penalties they were called upon to pay. And how long did they think the people would submit to this state of things? they were going to let the Poor-law Commissioners " down easily," but did they think that the people were not eufEcientlly aware that this would ba a great question at the next general ection ? The Whigs had stood pretty firmly to the declarations made by them at the last general election. But what was the conduct of tree late Government ? What was their conduct with Cam bridge when the poor-law was made the rallying cry, and when they came to the House and betrayed them ? He could name a borough where two candidates took it in turns to do the pathetic on the new poor-law —one was returned to the House, and continued his opposition to the poor-law, and the other was rejected, but ne sub sequently obtained a seat in that House, and now sup ported the law.—(Hear, hear.) He challenged any one to say that the law had not only proved a great tailure, but a bitter curse upon the countr, and the remedy was the same cruel and unconstitutional system limier another , erm. In the first clause tour Csbln , t Ministers were to ue pledged to maintain this law against all ()reposition ; and in the sixth clause two c eninissionere and the president were empowered to use :Ly powers vested in tile whole body. By •he ilev.ai h they were empowered to summon witnesse,, and also to make rules, and to Ater them. But was the Right H n. Beronea inclined to sign an order to separate a man trees his wife, and his children from their parents? Was he going t u sanction all the tyranny which had been practised eturing the past Bight l3 H yearn? I what right had he to d.) so ? A h p oo r man as fs inalienable a right to relic as the Baronet had to his own property. L o rd o n. d Brougham had admitted that this seas so. Was; he pre pared to test the measure upon those who were t sear and dear to him ? If not, what right had he to i its tortures upon the poor man ? And let him tell the Right Hon. Baronet that a poor man was just tas fond of his wife and children as the Right Hon. Baro net was el his. But what must be the position of :I Cabi net Minister who was compelled to act thus towards she poor man, for no other crime than that. he was poor and unable to obtsin work. Tien they t Carew the responsibility upon her Majesty. By the 20th clause the Queen, by the advics of the Privy Council, avas ern powered to alter the rules ; but the four! Cabinet \linisters were Members of the Privy Cowecil. The Ministers were, therefore, responsible. There they were to appoint inspectors. From that tyrannu to whom t con were they to appeal ? Their appeals_ wr ; and a nom her had no right to pass the present B iteLnded t Locke, h I her of high authorities, were opposed to the principle the H 011845 it be kepi back from the Sovereign. given to the Poor-law Commis sionerspowers which were here g _ by we re such as could not be exercised even the which was here contended for. LordWinfori thought that bounden duty Sovereign. Lord Ab in g er had also stron g l y expressed himself upon this que s tio n . It w a s their to set the present matter ut rest. He would read a letter agreedwith of the on poor law,) law.) hshjc . (;coke and Judge Haines was also of th e op i n i on which he which he had received from a working man. (Th e li on . M em ber here read the letter in quesnou, whi•ct strongly Bise deprecat ed ksto the working exp re zed, and even Lord Brougham himself ad • of the poor to relief. And mated this right they had. no right to impose upon them a vassalage. the Poor law Commissioners themselves said that; the pre sent crime, which was the result of destitution, was repugnant to the feelings of human nature. The lion • Member for Bath was constrained to state that for Ireland it was necessary to go back to the 43d of Elizabeth. As many Members of Parlia went would, no doubt, refer to the conduct of the poor-law guardians, he would not dwell upon their conduct. lie would, however, allude to the Long Town union—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member deprecated the state of that union. And these were the foundations on which reports were used against him in 1842 for the purpose adr crushing him, reports to which be had nut further alluded to than to state that Sir John Wa s , 1 Ingham in his report upon the same union, showed that 49 inmates were sleeping in thirteen or fourteen beds, and when he laid similar tects before the House, the Home Secretary, Si r James G ra h am , turned up his eyes, and smote his bre* -st, that such things could occur. The report stated, that front the day the law was enforced, in 1838, to thie time in. which it was made a resident poor law, comn sissionvea bad never entered it. On hearing tnis, the la Le Misals ser said, high time for the Government to interfere , yet what was the CAS, ? When did they enter Use • House agAin ? not for tour years—not till May, 1134 6—not until he himself came down to the House, and ei.ked the Government to insist that an Assistant Poor- latw Com missioner should visit Bingley. Now, let them see what were the next visits paid. They were made at iiuterralg