The Sun. — London, England, 1806-03-04 00:00:00

had been unaccountably made on the public mind, would, he trusted, soon wear off. At least he had reliance enough on the good sense of the Public to believe that it would. Lord .111 ULGRAVE disclaimed all personal ma tivA. He had no objection to any van of the Go vernment, so long as he saw the Noble Lord at the head of that Government who was now placed there. It was certainly the undoubted right of his Majesty to caii upon any Member of the Privy Council for his advice. The Lord Chief Justice was a Member,., • and Was therefOre assuredly eligible' to a seat in the- Cabinet brit* it should be recolleded,• that it: was the duty of Ministers to . advise his Majesty not to exer- , Cise his _prerogative as far as. it Would go, but to ex ercise it in a way that should be most conducive to the interests and satisfaction of the people. The Noble Lord who had just sat down seemed not to know the marked distindion between a Privy Coun cillor and a Cabinet Minister, though it was well understood in every Court of Europe. Where was the necessity for introducing the Lord Chief Justice , into the Cabinet ? To what point was his talents to be directed ? If Govigrnment wished for legal infor• mation of the pradice of the Court of King's Bench, had they not the assistance of the distinguished indi victual on the Woolsack ? If they were desirous to ascertain that of Chancery, could they not refer to the Solicitor General ? On other points they had equal opportunities of obtaining advice; why, there fore, should they thus depart from their usual prac tice 1.--On general and political subje&s it was imp possible they could require the Noble Lord's assist ance, if the present Ministry were truly what they were said to be, composed of all the talent and vir tue of the Country., After defending 'Montesquieu and Blackstone from the depreciation that had been attempted to be thrown, the Noble Lord concluded by observing, that although he certainly would not himself have agitated this question, yet as it bad been introduced, his duty compelled. him to vote for the I Lotion. Lord. CARN.,4IZPON declared, he'had not heard a single argument to prove that the situation of Lord Chief Justice and that of a Cabinet Minister were incompatible. EVen if the Motion were,justifiable, in_ his opinion it would not obtain what it was meant to. do ; it would not establish the principle on -Which it was f. %unded, unless it were followed up by a number of others of a similar tendency. , Lord AUCKLAND followed at considerable length on the same .side. He quoted Sir Edward Coke in' support of his opinion, and advanced a num ber of precedents from various periods of the English History. Lord HAIVAESBURY deemed the. present a question' of the greatest importance, both with re spea to the theory and the practical effect. With respe& to the Noble and Learned Lord, who was the immediate obje& of the Motion, he would yield to no one in admiration of his talents and integrity. If the question were, whether or not Lord Ellen borough should be a Member of the Cabinet, he bliOald not hesitate to declare his hearty approbation of him. On many points their sentiments were con genial ; and on some of those points too in which he differed from other Members of the Administration. He should, therefore, rejoice to see him form a part of It. -But the question was very different. It was, whether or not the Lord Chief Justice should have a seat in the_Cabiuet ?To his he could by no means accede. He knew perfectly well that it was as im possible to push any principlebeyond a certain extent, as it was to produce-pan. universal proof. It must be always subject to some qesilifications ; but it was the part of a wise Minister to make the exceptions to the general rule as few, and not as numerous, as possible. Whether to occupy 'a. seat in the Cabinet, was or was not to be technically a Minister of State, was of no consequence. Any one in that situation was so to all practices and purposes ; he was a party with the Executive Government, he was identified with it, he was affected by the same passions and pre judices. Giving, therefore, the Lord Chief Justice every possible credit for integrity' of principle, it was a mere mockery to consider him, in certain circum stances, as wholly unbiassed and unprejudiced.— There was this distinaion between the Privy Council and the Cabinet : the former in criminal cases only listened to and examined facts--the latter determin ed on the expediency of prosecutions, if, therefore, a libel were published against Government, we shoUld see the Lord Chief Justice deliberating first on the expediency 01 the prosecution, then sitting in judgment on the libeller, and ultimately pronouncing punishment Ought this to be so ? The Noble Lord here entered into an examination of precedents, and among others, of that of Lord Hardwicke, who, he allowed, being appointed Lord Chancellor while Lord Chief Justice was certainly ex officio a MeMber of the - Cabinet for some months, on accountofsome difficultieS in the way of the other arrangements. Lord, Mansfield, however, was the only permanent inAance. He by no means - meant to say, that news 'shy would net justify His Majesty in calling for the advice of any of the Privy Council . ; but then that ne- cessity should be stated. If any such had bten stated in the present Instance, not a word would have been said on the subject. He believed there was no indi vidual to whom the Country was More indebted than to Lord Mansfield. His holding these inconsistent tdations was the only stain on his reputation ; and with 'all his resped for him he could not bat think his con duet on that occasion rather a beacon to avoid than - an example to follow. It was certainly as necessary - that the King should have advice in legal cases, as on naval or military, or, political subjeas. The Consti tution, had; therefore, provided an adviser in the per . On of the Lord Chancellor, who was removable from his office, which the other Judges are not. • And why does the Constitution make him thus re movable ? Because he is, ex officio, a . Minister of the • Crown. With regard to the cases of Regencies • that had been instanced,_ they did not apply to the present question. There was a very general feeling of dissatisfaetion on the subject, and the Country could not but be highly obliged to the Noble Earl who had submitted it to the consideration of 'that House. Lord HOLLAND made a long and animated speech in defence- of the appointment of the Lord - Chief Justice to aseat in the Cabinet, and declared that the sentiments of the Noble Lords opposite went to destroy every thin- , on Which the responsi bility of Ministers depended. .The responsibility in- cnrred by the Lord Chief Justice was not a double responsibil►ty. It vas far from ben)" , a principle in the Constitution of this Country, that the Legislative and the-JUdicial Fewer§ sbould be kept elitina ? 'nor was tli'ts distinaion charadteristic of a free' Govern ment: In . Turkey they wire kept. totally distinCt, and despotism was; the result. In America they were allowed to be united, and 'freedom nourished. —lt had been asked for what purpose the Lord Chief Justice had been ,wanted ? He would answer, that ,he bad been wanted to assist in endedvouring to re pair the dreadful evils that had_been brought upon the Country by the rash, intemperate, and Misguided councils of the late Administration. He would give his hearty vote against any Motion that at such a dreadful crisis was calculated to harass the present Governrnert. Lord -MULGRAVE and Lord HOLLAND mutually explained. Lord GRENVILLE declared, that whatever re sponsibility was attached to the recommendation of Lord Ellenborough to His Majesty as a fit person for a Cabinet Minister, rested solely on himself, and he was far from wishing to shrink from it. From the first moment that he heard there were any doubts on - the subje6t, he was anxious that it should undergo a full discussion in Parliament, and he really felt him self under considerable obligation for having, brought it tbrward. The discussion it had undergone was of such a nattire, that it was impossible there could re main , a ruin ;—no, not a fragment 5---410, not an atom of bad impression on the public mind. Those' who opposed the Measure allowed that it was neither illegal nor unconstitutional. The expediency alone then remained to b& Considered.. (We regret very Muds that our- limits will not allow us to enter into a detailof the Noble Lord's arguments in support of the expediency of appointing the Lord Chief Jus tice to a seat in the Cabinet.) He concluded by de claring that he gave His Majesty his written advice to take him into the Cabinet, because he considered him as a man - peculiarly qualified for the. circum stances of the times, as a man of an elevated and firm mind, of unblemished chara&er, and of extra ordinary talents. He had no reason to repent his choice. The LORD CHANCELLOR left the Woolsack, and Spoke against the Motion. lie wished the Noble . Earl who brought it 'forward would follow the advice that had been given by the Noble and Learn6d Lord who followed him,aslo the distinguish ed individual wbo was the obje6t of it, namely, to refle& and change his opinion. Young as he was in that-House, he would take upon himself to say, that such a Motion had never been made in it. if he did not vote against it, he should think that His Majesty could not better exercise the prerogative which had been alluded - to, 'than by immediately re moving him from the situation which he had now the honour to hold. The Motion was then put, and lost Niithout a di vision.—Adjourned at Half-past One o'clock. govsE OF COMMONS. MONDAY, MARCH 3. Mr. HURST presented a Petition from the Debtors confined in the gaol of Horsham, in Sus ex. Order- , ed to lie on the Table. Mr. SHERIDAN, Colonel .McMAnoN Mr. COURTE NAY, and Admiral MARKHAM, took the oaths and their seats, on their re-ele&ion. TREATING ACT. Mr. S. LEFE'RE, in the - absence of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Tierney), put off the Motion of which that Right Hon. Gentleman had given notice for to-morrow, to Thursday next. Mr. W. DYNDAS stated, that the Bill fqr Athend ing the Bankrupt LaWs of Scotland would expire on the 25th instant, and gave notice, that on Wed nesday next he Mould move for leave to renew that Att. The Sheriffs of the City of London presented at the Bar a Petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons of the City of London, in Common Council assembled, relative to the enlargement of Smithfield Market,--Referred to a Committee. MARQUIS WELLESLEY. A Person from the India House presented Copies of the Correspondence between the Governor-Gene ' ral and the Court of Dire&ors, 8:c. pursuant to order of the House. Ordered to lie on the Table, and, on the motion of Mr. Paull, to be printed. , Lord TEMPLE, on the motion for their being printed, observed, that he did not object to that mo tion, though, when he considered the voluminous nature of the Papers, he thought a considerable de lay would be the consequence. As a charge was in tended to be grounded on these Papers against Marquis Wellesley, and the Hon. Gentleman had stated that these were the last Papers for which he should move preparatory thereto, he thought it would be desirable to his Noblc, Friend, and interest ing to the feelings of the Hotbe, to have an assur ance how this "charge was to be made good, and when. _ _ Mr. PAULL stated, that as -soon as the Papers should.be printed, he should lose no time in sub- mitting a Resolution on which he should ground 4 charge for High Crimes and Misdemeanours. Mr.• SPEAKER thought it his duty to acquaint the House, that as Friday • was the last day to receive Private Petitions, he should come down at a quarter past three, and take the Chair as soon after as the state of the .House - would enable him, upon an un derstandit!g that the House should proceed to -pub lic business at half past four o'clock. Mr; WIIiTEREAD gave notice, that he should to morrow present the Special Report on the fresh mat-- ter that had come out before . the Committee for managing the Impeachment against Henry Lord Viscount Melville. On the Motion of Lord TEMPLE, the .Order of the Day for going into a' Committee on. the Corn LawS,• and the Committee on the American Wool Bill were put offtill to-morow. It was ordered, on the Motion of "gr. FEYDELL, seconded by IMrd TEMPLE, that there be laid before the HottSe an Account of all the Wool, Woolfells, &c. imported for the last ten years, distinguishing that from the linited'States. 1l•••• .• The Greenland Whale Fishery Bill was read a second time ; fo be committed to-morrow. Mr.G.JoßNSTONE,understanding that some doubts were entertained of the propriety of granting the Pa pers which had been read in the General Court of Proprietors, and for the produaion of which he had given notice of a Motlon.for this day, pa off his Motion to Thursday nest. The Qualification indernUity flux was read A third time, and passed: On the Motion of 1.111-. YANSITTART, pursuant to notice, the House went into a Committee on the Irish Revenue Ads. An the Committee a Resolu tion was agreed to for'continuing the Duties granted to the 25th of this month for a time to be limited. The-House having been resumed, the Report was• ordered to be received to-morrow. Mr. ALEXANDER brought up the t eport of the Committee on the Expiring Laws. The Resolutions were severally agreed to; and it was ordered to be an instru&ion to the Committee appointed to prepare the Expiring Laws Bill, to make provision therein pursuant thereto. Sir PHILIP STEPHENS moved the Order of the Day for going into a Committee of Supply. Also, that the Estimates of 'the Ordinaries of the Naq, presented on the 2801 of January last, and the Esti mates of the Expellees of the' Transport Service, presented on the 4th of February last, be referred thereto. The House having resolved into the Com mittee, Mr. Alexander, in the Chair, the following, sums were voted : -----,- , , For the-Ordinaries of the Navy for the year tBo6 k 1,453,53 0 For building, repairing, and wear and tear of Ships, for the year 1806 - - 1 ,9 88 , 8 35 For hire of Transports, for ditto - - J,zis,ooso For Prisoners of War in Health, at home and • • abroad - - - - - - 400,000 For Sick l'rioners of War 45. 00 0 For Hospitals, &c. 30,000 The House was then resumed, and the Report ordered to be received to-morrow. On 'the Motion of ?Mr. Alderman PRINSEP; the firr►tier Order of the House for an Account of the Atnount of Stores and Merchandize Exported to the EaSt Indies from. 1793 to 1804, was amended, after a few observations from Mr. Huddleston, and Mr. Hiley Addington, by the insertion of the wotdbul lion. LORD ELt,ENBOROUCH. Mr. SPENCERST4NHOPE, in pursuance of his notice, rose to submit IA Motion.to the House. Though he had long had the honour ofa seat in that House, he had never before felt himself in a Situation to which his abilities were so inadequate. If he. were to have been gtuated. by. motives of opposition. to the present Administration, he should not -have. thought of bringing forward the present Motion. He could appeal to the testimony of the Right Hon., Gentleman opposite (Mr. Secretary Fox) whether. he had not communicated to him his intention. of bringing it forward before he had mentioned it in the House. He could solemnly disclaim any disposition. to throw any impediment in the way of .Govern- . ment by the course he was.about to pursue. It SO happened, however, that a similar Motion to the one he proposed to make was to be brought fOrward this day in another place (the House of Lords) •-; but he, could assure the House, that he did not a 6 in concert with the Noble Lord who was to originate the bu siness there. The only . concert he liad with that Noble Earl, arose from the coincidence of, the day on which their respe&ive Motions were to be. made. —lf his opinion were to have any weight in that closet to which it can by no other means penetrate than by being expressed in that House ; and if he were to be put upon declaring that opinion, whether he would advise the revival of all that had‘been done within the last few weeks, and the reinstatement of the Government as it was previous to that period, he would disadvise any such proceeding. Party was in cident to every free Government, and whatever might be the exemption of any individual from the feelings that, belong to it, any measure might be attributed or wrested to party purposes. This was the imperfeCtiO'n, of all free Governments. He had begged leave id ex plain the motives which influenced his own condu& in this odd way. And he sliould take this opportunity of giving a little advice to, the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. If he could not divest himself Of thOse princißles and feelings which he possessed as head of a party when called to the Government of the Conn, try; if he could not admire, and admire with a view to imitate that noble declaration of the famous Louis XII. of France, that the resentments of the Duke of Orleans did not become the King of Fiance, he would not have much reason to be satisfied with the success of his measures. If the Right Ho . nourable Gentleman still retained the sentiments he formerlya&ed upon, he couldassurehim that his Ad ministration would neither be honourable to himself, nor beneficial to his Country ; he should go further, and add, that it would not be of long duration. The Motion he meant to submit to the House in this in 7 stance, he would have made under any Administra tion. If Lord Kenyon had been introduced. into the Cabinet by the Administration of his day, he was sure, from some opinions he had heard the Right Hon. Gentleman advance, that he would have (.?p, posed 'such a proceeding ; and for his own part, he could with sincerity say, that, in that oppo s ition he should have been happy to support him. He was not unfriendly to the present Administration ; but the question to which he 'was to call the attention of the House was exceedingly interesting to the Country, and had excited a strong sensation every where. He would have been glad that the. Noble and Learned Lord to- whom his Motion rekrred had saved him the pain of making it, by with , drawing himself from the situation in which be had been placed, and he was sure that the' Ad- ministration would be much strengthed by his so doing.. He trusted he should prove to the House, that the Noble Lord ought not to occupy such a place ; but if the .talents of the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite should prevail against him, he Should have the consolation of affording them an op portunity of satisfying the House and the Public on a subjeft which bad given rise to so much anxiety. The Hon. Member here moved, that the King's Speech of the 3d of March, 1761, should be, read, from the 28th vol. of the Journals, p. 1094. " The, Speech stated the grant.of new Commis sions to the Judges, and the appointment of per manent salaries for them,' their Commissions having been already rendered irrevocable by an A 6,1 of his glorious predecessor King William ; for His Ma jesty looked upon the independence and upright , ness of the Judges_as essential to the impartial ad ministration ofjustice, as one-of the best securities of the rights and liberties of his' Subjects, and as the most conducive to the honour of the Cro - wn." Upon this speech an A& of Parliament had been passed,' and open this A& he should take his stand. • (The . . 461, was- here, at the desire 4 the' Hon. Alm 14r, entered as read.)—The title of the. A& was, A hill for securing the Independence of the - Judges, by providi9l- for Limn painanent salaries. He looked Upon it as a breach ef to apeeint any Judge of common law to any office cif emolument or pow( or which ivas air objea 'ef honourable ambitie from which he might be remoseable at pleasure., Such an appointment counteracted the very princi- ple of this 13i11j as it tended tO do away that inde pendence which the - Bill was designed to. secure: lyad heard it urged, that it would be a limitation Majesty's settof be could not appoint any individual he pleased of his Privy Council to a seat in his Cabinet. It was also said, that as every Member of the Privy Coun cil was"bound by oath to give his advice to His Mas testy, there was nothing - inconsistent or improper in such an one :being appointed to the Cabinet..-3 Notwithstanding this; however, he thought that a Judge ought to be the last man to accept of such an appointment. This was the principle that gOverned his opinionon the subjecl, and he did not : envy the feelings of those Gentlemen who entertained a dif ferent opinion. As to what might- be said with( respect to the circumstances 'of there being no - salary annexed to the appointment, he was sure that could; have little weight, as pecuniary emolu ment could not be supposed to have any influence on honourable minds, compared with that of high office and dignified station. He (-Quid put it to the Right Gentleman himself, whether he would prefer the distinguished situation he held amongst the first advisers of His Majesty, , to ten times the salary an nexectto it ? He did not mean to propose any limi tation to the King's prerogative, when he could. not approve of the appointment of a person to the ,Cabinet' whom he 7 laked upon as - disqualified, particularly as to the, judiCial duty that he Would have to execute in that situation. No such Of ficer', ought to be appointed an - lnbituaL'a&l wiser of His AlajeSty. It was, contradictory to law. and common sense that the same Person should hei; judge and accuser, and yet a Chief Justice who had , a seat in the Cabinet would often direa• prosecu tions in that - capacity,, over which - prosecutions he would afterwards ,sit : as jage. It might be eaid,.' .that whenever such questions Came under discussion, he might axithAiSv from the Cabinet, Undoubtedly he Might, but hoes was it to' be" known that he did, ayithdraw,? How was the culprit to know of his withdrawing ? And -if he did withdraw, would not the partners of thefirth still remain I "Would not the influence of the same feelings still, gtuate them?' He had not used the word partners hastily. In the case of a prosecution by'an', associated company, it *ad by a good, - giaind - challenge, against one of thee Jurymen, that he was, one of the prosecuting firm. 'And hew could a man, with consistency; be alloWed to sit as judge, who was by law disqualified for.en tering the j'ary boi ? He held it, that a- Judge un, der such circumstances could not be \free frOM bias. If it had happened during . Many of transee.iona which bad . taken place of late years, that the Chief Justice had possessed a seat int he Cabinet, hewas sure that conSiderable censure would have been incurred. But it was said that a-Chief Justice was different from other Members of the Cabinet. He might in cur censure as a Cabinet adviser, but hOld his com mission quamdiu se bene gesseiit. .He may hold his judiCial office by that tenure ; but if he, were to in ear heavy censure in another capacity, could he be continued in his office of Judge ? If one Judge were to be addiated into the Cabinet, why should not more be admitted—why not all ? In that case there would soon be an end of all law and of the Constitution: But there was another consideration to Which he pointed the attention of the House : he alluded to the particular case that had occurred last Session, in which, for malversation, the House di re&ed that Lord Melville should be prosecuted in the King's Bench. That Noble Lord had been a Mem ber of the Cabinet. If Lard Ellenborough had been Treasurer of the Navy, he might have been in Kie same situation ; and it would be matter of doubt, whether he could be removed upen such an obvious - charge of malversation, if the quarndizi se hene ges serit applied only, to his condu& in his charaaer of Judge. After having argued thus far on the . princi ple, he came next to a part of his consideration of the question, withsespea to which , he was at a loss what course to pursue. He was. at a loss *here to refer for precedents that would bear on the sUbjea„, though he had made the most diligent-search. He protqated that the whole of the precedents which he had been able to discover were qntecedent to the Ac's lie had before cited: They had none of theta been in the cognizance of that House. The present discussion on the Motion with which he should cons. dude, would bring that question, for the first time,. under the cognizance of the House. It had been urged, that by the Aft passed in the reign of Queen Aim for the appointment tsf a Regency, the Chief, justice had been nominated upon:that Regency. He was himself no Lawyer, and of course could not tell 'how far that appointment couldoperate as a bar to his performance of his judicial functions. If the Chief Justice had sat, whilst a Member of such Regency, in juddnent upon any criminal, it would appear tcs him a departure from the principles of law and jus tice. The ,King is the prosecutor in all such cases, • and the Chief - justice,: holding pro tempore, cs hilst a Member of the Regency, the functions . of the Ex ecutive, must of necessity have been the : prosecutor and at the same time the Judge. It had been .said too, that Lord Holt had sat in the Cabinet whilst he held the office of Chief Justice ; but he could not find any where, whether or .not if had been so.. .This he could positively assert, -that if the case had really been as stated, no notification had been made on the subjeft to that House. They were also told that Lord Hardwicke had been in the Cabinet whilst he ' was still Chief Justice. . Of this, • however * they could have no certainty. The only guide they had was an acknowledgment, made by himself in 1775, when he said that for. ten" years he had ceased to attend the Cabinet, From this it would appear probable that 'the period of hi, 6 havine a seat in the Cabinet was antecedent to the passing of the A& for securing the independence of the Judges: Though the teasoningmight apply with the same force to the case before the passing of thatAEt, yet it wasnofnecessary for him to apply it. There h. 4 been many.ChiefJustices since, and yet there had , not been a single instance of one holding a seat in the,Cabinet. It was .on this principle that the 'Judges made it a point never to go to Court, becAse they would not appear to be courting the place of either of the two Chief Justices. He was aware that the case of Lori Mansfield would -beeappeeed to; but it was well known that the Leerne?, Lord had bet naa hish Constittuismal Lawyer., z.•:ci aO 11,