The Sun. — London, England, 1857-07-17 00:00:00

VEX -- ' ",'''''',',!'!"'",oo,-:,:•71,1" 4, -,iitseoe!!"c?' . !""' - ' - , -.'i ,7- T -. ' - ' , ... , -,, -,,--- ~-, ....... , . ~-, iIdIUR /AI 01 wen I n dividuals ribose eondnet was al-1 And We very night the Chaneelior of the Excheque r ' ready under the consideration of the comm ittee, gets up and asks you, sir, to leave the chair in order that Sir G. GREY said this was one of the cases under he may present the bill to the House of Common% consideration a few Jaye before, in which it was con- i ask ;he House of C immons did anything of that sort sidered that the writ ought to be suspended for a few ever take place before, (Hear.) I recollect being in this days. He understood that it was then agreed that in house upon a solemn occasion. The war declared against cases where it ;vas reconimepded by the committee a few l Itusa was declared in this house, and I shall not forget days more should be given. (Hear, bear.) my own emotions, nor the appearance of the house on Lord LOVAINE said that when the evidence was that occa,ion. When the person who officially made that before the house they would see ample reason why the declaration made it at the bar every countenance wore a writ should be suspended, solemn expression. They felt that England was ant-ring Lord J. RUSSELL presumed it would be understood I into a contest which involved great interest, which that the writ.weuld not be moved till Thursday ? might lead to disastrous consequences, and they felt that Colonel FRENCH understood that it would not be it was a solemn, and, if I may use the phrase, an awful moved till the evidence was printed, occasion. Bet the war with Russia was not a more awful At the suggestion of Sir G. GREY, the motion was or more solemn event than the war with Persia. Persia, withdrawn, in order to move as a substantive resolution indeed, was an inferior power to Russia, but the conse that the evidence be printed and the writ suspended to quences we now see. The mutiny at Delhi may be traced Thursday next, which, after some discussion, was t ) denuding our Indian empire of forces on that occasion, agreed to. and when they declared war and determined on that expe- Mr. SCHOLEFIELD moved the suspension of the dition to Persia they ran tLe risk of losing our Indian em writ for Mayo till Thursday next, and hoped that fur- pire, and diminishing for ever the power of England. I ther delay would be granted if necessary. say that these two occasions are equally important, and if Colonel FRENCH bad no desire to argue the ques- the war with Russia were important and should be corn tion after the late decision, bnt pointed out that there municated to this house, so was the war with Persia, were circumstances in the case which were somewhat considering the.war which followed it, and of which I peculiar. He complained that a letter had been sent say the Government had notice. I have no doubt the from :th e c o m m itt ee down to the house, containing noble lord, if he deigns to answer me, will say that all rtetements injurious to Mr. Sheridan, in respect to this is past, that the war with Persia has come to an vibich he read a letter from the stipendiary magistrates end, that peace has been made, and that our relations exonerati ng ai r . Sh e ridan from the charges against him. with Persia aro upon the best possible footing. I am The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for 1 RELA.ND said not going to enter into the question of our relations with he had rea d th e depositions, and they did not contain Persia. That is not my cause of complaint. My corn any ev id ence aga i ns t Mr. Sheridan, but did contain plaint is that the House of Commons upon this occasion same s t a t emen t s affecting a person of the name of has been entirely passed over ; that the House of Corn- Sheeran, which might have led to the mistake. mons, exercisir g the privilege of providing for the ex- Col. NORTH said the committee had done all that penses of an expedition, has a right to inquire into the was in their power ; they had examined on oat h the principles upon which the expedition is undertaken and gentleman who had received the letter. It was abso- the expenses are incurred. I pay that a more contemp- . lately necessar y to come to the house fur protection for teems course than this was never pursued toward- , the the witnesses. House of Commons. (Hear.) We are now called upon Mr. BOWYER made a statement in defence of Father in the coolest manner possible to supply nearly a million Conway, who had requested him to say that it was un- of money. The house is called upon, on the ipse disci of true that h e h a d made use of any curse or threat fro is the noble lord, to furnish sums, and no explanation is the altar or elsewhere, against any person who should offered of the expenses incurred. I pay, if the House of vote in a particular wry. Commons is prepared to undergo this insult—for insult Lord 3: RUSSELL spoke to order. The report was it is—we had be' ter shut cur doors and go back to our now before the house. constituents. (Cheers.) I know the power of the noble Tee SPEAKER said it would not be regular for the lord. I know that he has—God knows how—obtained bon. gentleman to make a statement in contradiction in the country a wonderful oeinion. Why the people to a report not now before the house, concede to him that opinion I cannot for the life of me After a few words from Mr. MAGUIRE, imagine, but I fully acknowledge that he is allowed to The motion was agreed to. do thugs which others dare not do. Fancying I have SUPPLY. a duty to perform, I will, however, raise my voice, feeble On the order of the day for going into committee o as that voice is, and call upon my countrymen to point supply. their finger at the conduct of the noble lord. I point Sir JOHN RAMSDEN said, in answer to a question my finger at the conduct of the noble lord, and I say no from Sir J. inaononeo, that on the retirement of Colonel conduct since the Hous lof Commons has been a House G. C. Munday, late of the War Department, he was of Commons was ever so insulting as that which the considered to be entitled to a pension of 1,0001. a year, noble lord has pursued on this occasion. When Chat les which. was conferred on him subject to a condition that I. came down to this house in order to seize five of its it should be in abeyance during the time that he might members he certainly did commit a breach of its privi be in receipt of a salary of-more than 1,0001. per annual loges, but he had gone through various stages in his from any other office ; or that if he held any office o f l ess progress t iwarde that point ; and the great result of all than a 1,0001. a year only, the difference should be paid the revolutions connected with this house has been that to him. He had been appointed to an office in Jersey no course of conduct can be pursued by the Government of mere than 1,0001. a year, and consequently his over which we have not an immediate control through the finances of the country. l am not at all sur p rised at allowance ceased. Sir J. TRELAWNY inquired bow lsng he had the conduct of the noble lord. It is the result of tile great confidence which he has in himse l f , but I thi nk l ate e v e nts been in the War Department '? Sir J. RA.MSDEN : Two years, I believe. (A. laugh). out ht to have served as a warning to him. The etate of THE MILITIA. India at the present moment is one of the most striking Mr. DISRAELI ceded the attention of the Premier evidences of the mistakes of the noble lord. Events are to a notice in the London Gazette o f th e 14th of Jul, o ccurrnag there which involve the interests of England. of an order in council dated the 25th of June, to too It we lose our empire in India—and we may lose it— effect that the militia was not to be called out this y ear. (cries of "No, no !" from the Opposition)—l understand At the time that order was signed the news of the late that exclamation, it is a thou ouehly English "No. disastrous events in India had not been received. But (Cheers.) Na men can join in the feeling which dict a tes what he wished to ask was, whether the publication o f it more hearti'y than I do. You believe youzoelves able that notice after the news had been received was not to meet even this great emergency, bat you will not an inadvertence! deny that it is a great emergency. (Hear, hear ) I have Lord PALMERSTON said there was no inadvertence. that confidence in my countrymen—in their indomitable The notice was issued with full consideration, and for tea- spirit—that I have no doubt, in spite of the mistakes of sons which/ he still held to be good ones. It was thought the noble lord, they will overcome the present difficulty. unnecessary to call out the militia this year, as they had Nevertheless, I say the noble lord has mzde a great mi been sufficiently drilled last year. He did not think the rake. I may even use a stronger word. India is now the receipt or the news from India was any reason why they opprobium of the noble lord's administration. He has shoolFi be called out. England was not engaged in a reduced India to its present position, and if we lose India European war, and the militia were not required for we lose the world. My charge ageing the noble lord, home defence. The only purpose that could be ga ned therefore, is not a small one. First, I say that he has in by oatog them out would be to facilitate enlisomeet, suited the House of Commons—that he has pursued the wb Leb o however, would be a most expensive way of at- course of utterly passing it by—that he has declared w ar, to ining that object. (Hear). undertaken an expedition, and made peace without ask- THE PERSIAN WAR. ing your approval or consulting your wishes. He has acted as if you were not in existence. The House of Commons is Mr. ROEBUCK ruse pursuaut to notice to move his in the opinion of the noble lord an utter cipher. Such is resolution condemnatory of the war in Persia being un the first charge I bring against the noble lord. The next dertaken and prosecuted without the sanction conveyed is that be has chosen an occasion for thus treating the by a vote of the house. He said, I wish, Sir, the retolu- House o f C ommons the most dan g erous to En g land that lion lam now about to move lied fallen into more able has occurred since the declaration of independence by America. By a want of care, by a want of foresight, hands than mine, for it appears to me that never in the by that sort of rashness which constant success en whole history of the House of Commons was a more im- genders, he has denuded India of her defences and thus portant subject submitted to its consideration. Sir, we lsd to all the dangerous consequences that have occurred. are now about to consider the conduct of an Adeninis- Far be it from me to take up the time of the house by tration with regard to the House of Commons, and lam unnecessary observations. I move the resolution which I have placed upon the paper with a frill knowledge of prepared to say, Sir, that this conduct has been such its importance, with a full knowledge, too, of the vitu that, if allowed to pass without comment, it will go far peraton and sarcasm to which I may subject myself ; tojeopardise the authority of this house and to diminish but, having before my eyes my daty as a representative its influence with the country, on the very matteis of the people, I say that upon this question of the Per which are peculiarly within its province. It may be Sian war Commons th o n f eeV e lord laed le . a beens The h a e n e enemy and learned gent e. said that the prerogative of the Crown is to declare war man concluded by ng moving : ' and -to make peace. Wide that proposition, Sir, I " That the war with Persia was declared, prosecuted, entirely coincide ; but I say that this house and concluded without information of such tranoections has a privilege with regard to that prerogative which it being communicated to Parliament; while expensive nr rnaments were equipped without the sanction of a vote of ought not to desert, (Hear.) The Crown may declare this house. war when it peaces, and if the Crown can carry on that " That it is tho opinion of this house that such conduct war without application no the House of Conmons it is tends to weaken its just authority, and to dispense with its perfectly justified in doing so ; but the mo m ent it comes constitutional control over the fioances el the country, and tolhis helm) to ask us to enable it to maintain that war, renders it requisiw for this house to express its strong re through the egency of money, then the whole war and probation of such a course of proceeding." everything connected with it become subjects of corisi- Mr. AYRTON seconded the resolution. deatieion for the House of Commons. It appears to me The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that this is peculiarly the mode by which the House of , th at th e speec h o f the hon. gentleman had been, with c ornmona has arrived at its present position, and if one exception, confined to the notice on the paper, Eegland is now distingui leible from the nations around namely, as to the manner in which the war bad a e , e her by one thine more than another it is by this very conducted, and not to the merits of the war itself. He power of the House of Commons. To that pow( r would begin by stating that, he had come to the house we owe our liberty, to that liberty we owe our la:vs, prepared to hear the p hey and justice of the ear ques and to those laws we owe our happiness. If that tioned, and prepared to state the grounds on which ho power ghoul I ever be diminished, than, indeed, the tilities were commenced, but he did not feel justified in just influence of this house will be diminished going tnto those matters now, as Wee hon. gentleman also ; and the charge I bring against the noble had not questioned the policy of the war, but by his lord at the head of the Government is this — that ho, silence seemed to admit it. The papers bad long been being aso called Liberal, has done that with regard to on the table of the house, and it was not, theref. re, the House of Commons which no minister-has ever yet necessary to wait fa• a committee of supply to bring it dared to do—that the two Pit's, in the plentitudg of before the house. Those who had watched the their power, did not dare to do what the noble lord has affairs of Central Asia during the last few years, would done. And what is that? I will shortly describe what I know that it had been a cardival piece of our policy that conceive to be the conduct of the noble lord. He has Herat should not tall into the hands of the Persians, and y laid upon the table of this house a book containing papers that was looked upon as a piece of national policy ' b all regarding our relations with Persia. Those papers begun nations. Persia was a weak power, while Russia o.er as early as the year 1851, and the very first of those shadowed her, and placed her in a state of serni-deP en papers refers to the Persian conduct with reference to three on Russia, indeed it was no refl - ction upon Persia Herat. In proceeding iii the investigation of those pa- to say that it was a vassal of Russia, and guided by Rea pers we soon learn that the British Government supposed sin in its foreign relations. The British Government had that the Prreian Government had designs upon Hsrat lately been engaged in a great conflict with the Russian which were inimical to English interests. From 1851 empire, and it was not his wish to say a word that might to 1857 negotiations were carried on with the Per.-i,„n revive asperities that had passed away, but looking to Government,' and . not until December, 1856, dal the Central Asia, it was impossible not to tee that Russia English Government think it requisite to take such step& and England bad rival interests which induced England with regard to tee G overn ment o f P ers ia as should to maintein the independence of the Indian boundary. lead to war. In December, 1356, this house was Undoubtedly there had been during the war with Rue. not sitting, but in that month the Governor-General of s i a , di sagr eements between our minister and the Persian India issued a proclamation equivalent to a declaration Government, but they did not give rise to the war, al of war. No means were taken to call this house together, though they might have given rise to a suspension and things went on. War was declared against Persie, o f di pro the disast then ers we are now suffering in Iru'ia. (Hear.) ceeded to say that the hon. and learned gentleman had Our forces were taken from India and directed against stated that no previous Government had ever entered Persia. I . am told—l do not know bow correctly—that upon a war without giving notice to Parliament ; but the Government was warned on that occasion that de- let them look how far precedent and practice justified nudiug India of the forces of England woul 1 endanger that statement. It they i looked to the occupation of thin very exiesteoce of our Indian empire. I must call to Bushire and a 1838,that Karrackho would find no the recollection of the house and of the noble lord the pre- such communication was made to Parliament. There phecies—if I may so call them—of Sir C. Napier many was doubt of the prerogative of the Crown to declar e se years ago upon this matter. He pointed out to the Go- war, so that nothing could have been done beyond a veer: money anent of India, and through the Government of India mere communication to Parliament. No to the Government of England, that there were cause" necessary to be asked for at the time, as the preliminary which y which should alarm all foreseeing Ministers a ith regard - expenses of the war were discharged by the Indian Gi: to the army of India, and he took steps which bethought se rnenent. No step whatever was required to be taken precautionary to prevent mischief arising on that occa- with regard to that house. The hon. gentleman bad sion ! Those steps incurred th e displeasure of the then compared the Persian with the Russian war, but morally Governor Ge neral, Lord D a lhousie. Sir C. Napier re- and constitutionally there was a great difference be signed, but his warning remained. Lord Dalhousie re- tween the two cases, one difference being that in turned home, and Lord Cant ing went to India. lam the Russian war the funds had to be provided told—l do not knqw how correctly—that the demands by that house, whereas in the Persian war, made on him for forces to be directed towards Persia the preliminary expenses were defrayed by the raised in Lord Canning's mind such alarm that he coin- Indian Government. The war was announced by municated that alarm to the Government of this coon- her Majesty .on the opening of Pawiament, and he did try, and not only did he do so, lout lam told that the not see bow Government could have taken an earlier Commander-in-Chief did the same, and that the Govern- notice of the sunject. Looking at previous practice, and ment of this country was fully aware of the danger likely the constitutional character of the case, ne could not to arise if India were denuded of troops. I appeal to this understand what irregtarity or inconvenience there had house, if there be a shadow of truth in that statement, been, or in what way there bail been any di-respect shown whe• her this was not a very important matter. This to Parliament. (Hear, hear.) He would now pass to • house has been called together on less important occa- that part of the hon. gentleman's speech, in which he alone ; for let me say for this gnu-e that the empire o sought to connect the recent events in India with the Indi a i s i n f act the emp i re o f E sg l and— (h ear )— t h a t w e l a t e Persian expedition. He stated that the Government - should not a l ow our emp i re i n I n di a t o be destroys d had been warned against denuding India of her troops, without making every effort which the people could but he (the Chancellor cf the Exchequer) was not aware ma e ke to preserve it, b ecause if conquere d i n A s i a we of any such warning , and as f a r a s his experience went ar red need to nothing in Europe. (Hear.) This, he did riot believe there had been any remonstrance on then, was a very vital question to the empire of Eng- the part of the Indian Government . B ut was it true and, and if the - called togeth er in Commons a of Parliament were to be that there was any connection between the mutiny occasion when they extraordinary manner, that was an in the Indian army an d the witlithawal of the troops ought to have been so ceded tog , - for the Persian expediti on ? Accordin g to the best ther. But the nobl e l or d , having that confidence in accoun t s which had reached home the spirit of the himself which a long se r i es of successes in life has enabl e d mu t ineers was peculiar to Bengal and the him to obtain, disregarded altogether a the exi s t ence o f North-Western provinces, and did not a t all prevail in Parliament, and determined to w ac count. He therefore directed that wage war war upon his own I the provinces of Madras and Bomb a y. In those per• troops should b e t i ons f rom w hi c h the troops were drawn there bad been sent from India to Persia. They weresent. undertaken. War was prosecuted. A battle was W f they thought March, eb of • P had contended for. By this time the European regi , nients had returned to India, and there was no ground • 1857. this house met , but no communication was inaio for connecting the mutiny at Delhi with a desire to - "to this house. The not-Is lord, still holding on in t e h o c i t w th e e ak e en the English Government during the absence of course which has distinguished his career—fury . dif fident in himself, and prepared to conduct the ferer, h t m a y, arising as they did from circumstances as dif scowueledildeeconceived. He could not believe that matter without the House of Commons—deter- the house countenance the suspicions the honour mined to conduct it without the House of Com- able gentleman had raised as to the connection of the . , mono, and did conduct' it into a peace. And mutiny at Delhi and the Persian expedition. If the the first real intimation that we have had of these trans- motion had been made when the papers were laid on such , a bee n a o u ti s o e n a wouid never have entered actions is the bill which is . this night to be presented. the table, Whet is that bill? We learii that it amounts in the whole any one's head th 1 r h,a n d oe s b p u ok ck en ) see could have antici ,BoCt,ooo/. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, with paled the results that had ° recently occurred. But , that dexterity which belongs to all Chancellors of the then the honourable gentlemanExchequer,He f the 4 began with 500,000/ , but the last paper laid loss of our Indian empire not an improbable gentleman on the table ebtiws tbat our share ' of the bill will be at thing. (Cries of no, no, from a W s I . least 900,0001. But it tloes not etop there; 900,0001. is towed to hear that the hon. and learned .. . • only an instalment, and I believe it will be found that repudiated the supposition. Juaging from the accounts the expense of the war with Persia will amount to at I which had been received, be could not place the ier • . least two millions of money. If ever the House of Conn- l hence of our Indian empire as an hypothesis, iforilase. , . mewl had a right to complain it is upon WAS occasion. A looked to it as based upon a most sound foundation, and ' war has been undertekein A war bas been , prosecuted, ! denying the probability of his anticipations—admitting Engegemerits haver actually been taking place between ' at the same time the gravity of evils which would de our troops and those of Persia. Peace has been concluded mud most anxious attention—he could not admit that ~-,-~- the eoverrinient was at an reeponsibla, or that the hen. stentleman's irlenuity would convince the b , use that there was any connection between tie Persian expedi tion and recent events in India. (Hear, hear ) Mr. NI3BET, Navin;; bad some experience in India, denied that the present revolt was to be attrihuted to the Persian invasion. The real reasons he believed to be two—the fir,t was, that the Bengal troops were re cruited from men of high caste, who would fight, but would do nothing else ; and next, that the European officers were withdrawn from the native regi ments into civil offices. Mr. BAILLIE hoped this would not be turned into an Indian debate. He proposed to discuss the policy of the Persian war; and with regard to the question of communication with Parliament, he reminded the house that the provisional order for the sailing of the expedi tion was made in July last, while Parliament was sitting, so that an intimation of the war might then have been made. He pointed oat from the papers before the house that before the war began Ferukh Khan offered to give up all we asked, except to dismiss the Prime Minister. For the dismissal of that Prime Minister, then, the war was undertaken, and after gaining, as we are told, va- nous successes, we agreed to a peace, giving up our demand for the dismissal of the Prime Minister, and even other points which Persia before the war was dis posed to concede. He then argued that the Aff4hatis would in any case of war be fou❑d to be the natural allies of Russia, while Persia had every interest in the world to ally herself with us. It was madness to fling away the friendship of such a people ; and, therefore, unwilling as he was to embarra , s the Government at such a moment, still he felt constrained by a sense of duty to vole for the motion. Lord BURY fully agreed with the principles of Mr. Roebuck's motion, but he could not consent to vote Er it, and so to embarrass the Government at this moment of difficulty. He entered into detaile to show that Rus sia, even with Herat in her possession, could not invade India, and therefore our alarm with respect to that country was groundless. But he was rather di-posed at the present moment to support the Government, who deserved the greatest credit for their promptitude in the present emergency with India, and especially for having sent out a man as commander-in•chief who to the eye of a hawk united the arm of a sergeant-major. Mr. DANBY SEYMOUR defended the policy of the Government, and taunted Mr. Roebuck and his sup porters with having never objected to the war till they were called on to pay the bit. Mr. WILLOUGHBY also mAintained that the in terests of Eugland were strongly bound up in keeping Herat out of the hands of Persia, and though he might not agree to all the steps adopted for that purpose, yet this was not the time to censure them. Adverting . to the state of India, he said there was no cause for un manly alarm, though he deprecated some of the discus sions that took place in this house with respect to it, and particularly the discussion on the petition from the mis- sionaries. S.r F. W. WILLIAMS said that the great experience which he had had with Eastern countries convinced him of the strong desire manifested by Russia to get to India, and in the course of his communication with all awes of the East, the advance of Russia on India was the theme of conversation and discussion. The policy of the Persian war was, therefore, perfectly a sound one, and the results of the late operations at Moharnmerati, one of the most important and valuable to ens of Persia, would not fail to be productive of the most beneficial results. Mr. SHERIDAN supported the motion of the hon. member for Sheffield. Lord J. RUSSELL—There are two questions - before the house, both of which have been discussed with great calmness, and I, for one do not wish to alter the tone of the discussion. One of the questions raised by the hon. and learned member for Sheffield referred to the control of this house over the finances of the country, the other is the policy of the Persian war. With regard to the first of these questions the gentleman who spoke last, and se veral who preceded him, and even the hon. and learned member for Sheffield hheeself, who spoke with so much ability on the question, have a little overlooked the pre cise facts of the case. With regard to the delay in the production of the papers, I must say, that from Feb. until that production, the house itself was a consenting party. As soon as Parliament met communications took place between Lord Cowley and Ferukh Khan, which be came the basis of negotiation E., and it then became a ques• tion with the ministry whether it would be conducive to the success of the negotiations to produce at that time pa pers e xpl armory of the causes of the Persian war. It was their opinion that the production of the papers would em barrass the negotiations, but any member might have made a motion for their production, and if successful, the papers would no doubt have been produced. It was wis dom, in my opinion, in the house to refrain, and that accounts for the whole period from the beginning of the session down to the signature of the treaty of peace. It may be said that they pushed reserve too far in not pro ducing the papers until the treaty had been ratified, but every one knows that when that took place the house was menaced with dissolution, and every one was think ing more of the elections than of the treaty with Persia ; and it must be admitted that the moment the treaty was ratified the papers were produced. This explain'e the greater portion of the delay ; but with regard to the for mer portion, I do not think that Ministers were altoge ther justified in not calling Parliament together at an earlier period. I do not think th9.t. when orders were first despatched to Bombay it would have been wise to pub blish our intentions by a discussion in Parliament ; but when Nov. 1 came round, and the Governor-Generel of India had by their desire declared war, I thick it would have been right to come down to Parliament with expia nati.ms. But when 'reflect that this is the month of July, and that the delay complained of took place some weeks befere Feb. 3, I think the charge se grave as to justify the house in coming to a resolution. (Hear.) With respect to the second question raised, viz., the negotiations, I own I cannot see that it is at all proved that we might not have had as geod a convention rot we have obtained without any declaration of war. Lord Clarendon repeat edly declared that the sine qua non of negotiation wao the dismissal of the Persian Prime Minister, a most extracr dieary demand, but one that was not peswevered in. Ti that demand had not been pressed, Lord Stratford bad :n his handsacoenplete compliance with all the demands then made, a compliance fully Al coral lete, as the hon. mem ber for Inverness had proved, as that which had been ob tained as the result of the war. I cannot but think, on this part of the subject, that her Majesty's Government were not justified in going to ear without being fully satisfied that the objects which they deemed essential t , the honour and interests of the country could not be ob tained without it. It has been said that all means of ne gotiation were in the first instance exhausted, but he did not prove his assertion, nor is it to be proved out of the napere. A gallant friend of mine says he found on the frootiere of Persia and Prussia much speculation as to a Russian invasion of India, and on that ground he justi fied our pact , towards Persia. I must ray I never knew a shorter cut iu logic than that taken by my ben. and gallant friend. lam quite ready to admit all he says of his own authority, as it would be a very natural subject for political theorists to speculate on the future destinies of England and Russia, but that, therefore, we should conclude that our policy towards Persia had been sound, is, I must confess, rather too sudden a leap for me. (Hear.) Taking his pre niece, I should have thought our Lest policy would have been to conciliate Persia. It may be said that they had violated a treaty, but then the convention with regard to Herat was of a vague and un defined character, and there were many loopholes of which advantage might be taken. One thing is tolerably clear, that if the Governor of Herat ma - 3e incursions into the Persian territory, the Shah could not have been pre vented taking steps in retaliation. The Persian Govern. ment was ready to acknoa ledge the independence of He rat ; and if it had not been for the trumpery quarrel got up at our miseion, the probability is that by. the usual diplomatic means we should have come to an understand• ing, and that the subsequent war might have been pre vented. 'The war may cost a million, perhaps two, it may have been imprudent to take the troops away from India—l shall not pretend to say so, but at the same time these wars disturbed men's minds, and gave rise to those vast speculations which are natural to the Eastern ima gination. It seems to me that when you obtained peace with Russia that was the time to commence a general policy of peace. We should then have been as friendly with Russia as with any other power in Europe, and have endeavoured, as ranch as possible, to tranquil lige the world, which bad been disturbed by our con test. Having so concluded that war, I cannot but think that it is our interest, and the interest of the world, that the peace which has been established should be main tained. Our interests ?vend all over the civilised world —there is no part of any sea—in the east, in the west, in the north, or in the soutn—in which we have not some interest more or less considerable, and where we have not sometimes unfortuna' ely chosen an agent, in whose hands large powers are necessarily entrusted. It is impossible to avoid trifling quarrels arising at times at some one or other of these places, and the only way to keep peace is to endeavour to smooth down the-e differ ences as they arise, and to instruct the agents to bring them, if possible, to a rational and speedy conclusion, and that while they did not sacrifice any of our engage ments or our great interests, to recollect that it is nei ther our aim nor wish to inflame those differences and those quarrels, but rather to avoid and put an end to I them. (Hear ) These sentiments which I have ventured to express are, I trust, not adverse to those which both the house and the Government entertain. (Hear.) I regret that the war with Persia and these hostilities in Caine. should have made it necessary now to vote this sum of money—which, however, I ate persuaded every hon. member present will be ready to vote—but in the hope that it will be the desire and the object of the Go vernment to do all in their power, without sacrificing the honour and interests of the country, to pressrve that peace which we have obtained at so much cost. Mr. KEIL opposed the resolution. Mr. WALPOLE contended that Ministers bad com mitted a grave infringement on the privileges of this house, and showed by a comparison of dates that the war was determined on before Parliament separated last year. He thought this was not a matter to be lightly versed over by Parliament, and lee hoped Ministers would give them the assuracc that this case would not be drawn into a precedent. He was unwilling to do any thing that would weaken the hands of the Govern• ment at the present crisis ; and he was inclined to evade giving any opinion on the motion by voting for going into committee, but he would do this on the distinct protest that he altogether disapproved of their conduct. Col. SYKES opposed the motion. Mr. V. SMITH entered at great length into the his tory of the transactions connected with the Persian was, and contended that if Ministers bad announced their in tentions to Parliament in July last year, it would have been a warning to Persia, and enabled them to stand on the defensive. With respect to the war itself, he denied Mr. Baillie's areertion that the war was caused by the refusal of the Shah of Persia to give up his Mini6tcs. Liol4/30N t 1, 7 111.04.1 e EVE-ttIiNtJULT ... The truth wits' that at eollitrintinspla Perekb Khan had no power tee treat, and was the first to break off negotiations when be found that the Persian expedition had sailed. The peace we had concluded, he maintained, was an essentially good one ; Persia herself was satisfied with it ; our viewer was strikingly extuiplified in the war, and be believed Persia wool I henceforth attach lit rseif to England rather than to Russia. Mr. GLADSTONE -aid the question before the house was one of extraordinary gravity and difficulty. He was not disposed to omit from his consideration the verdict that bad been given by the constituencies in favour of the present Government, because the noble lord at the head of the Government had a right to urge that those acts complained of must have been under the review of the people during the last election, and approved of by them. Ile (Mr. Gladstone) was deeply convinced of the value of the privileges of the house over the Govern ment through the estimates, and that withoutthem there was no guarantee for the honour and glory of this coun try. He took an unfavourable view of the question, end was sceptical of the dogmas that had been advanced in the course of the debate, and of the importance attri buted to the position of Herat. (Hear.) It was not by such conduct as Lad been pursued in this war that the honour of England was to be consolidated. A connec tion in some degree might be presumed to exist between what bad occurred in Persia and India, but he did not think it was a'queetion for consideratitea in that debate. He dissented from the cours t that had been adopted by the Government with respect to Herat, but he admitted they had only given effect to what might be considered traditional ideas. He contended that the Government had not given a satisfactory answer to the question—for what we went to war ? We went to war for objects that were found unattainable, and as soon as that was discovered we make fresh demands. The right hon. gentleman the President of the Board of Control had stated that we did not make the dismissal of the Persian ambassador an ultimatum, but the contrary was the fact, and the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) read exrracts from the blue hook to show that such was the case. Who was it that urged the breaking out of hos. tilities for not going on with the negotiations ? Why, not Feruk Khan, but Lordh Stratford himself ; and yet at that time Ferukh Khan had conceded more than we had since obtained by treaty. So much for the Persian war. There then remained the constitutional question, and upon that question' the allegations of the hon. and learned member for Sheffield had not been met. The right hon. gentleman who bad just sat down had referred to Indian precedents ; but these precedents ought to arouse the jealousy of the house, because the principle laid down was, that while the Government could not with the Queen's army commence war without the sanc tion of Parliament, yet they could do so with an Indiau army. (Hear.) That was a most dangerous principle, and in that case it was the more dangerous because the Persian was not an Indian war. That war was a matter of British and not of Indian principle, and therefore no claim could be made fur it of being exempt from the control of Parliament. The question, then was, what course were they to take ? Coull they afford altoge ther to pass it by as regards the derogations which had taken place of the privileges of Parliament. He thought words of the deepest censure were ju-ti fiable ; but as the derogation took piece in the last Par liament, he would be content to waive that censure, pro vided he could obtain security for the privileges of Par liament for the future. Upon that subject he felt much warm, be. ause the Government had defended themselves upon the meiits of the case, and without reference to the dignity of Pariiament. lie confessed, therefore, that while he was not convinced of the necessity of recording censure, yet it would be inconsistent with the character of the house, and inconsistent with the jealousy with which the house always watched its privileges, if they allowed the matter to pass unnoticed. If the Government had said that this was not to be a precedent, he would have urged the hon. and learned gentleman not to per severe in his course ; but as they had been told that everything was right, he for one could not, by putting a negative on the hon. and learned gentleman, support a principle which asserted that a war might be commenced and concluded without the coos ent of the British Par liament. (Cheers ) Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I cannot concur either with the constitutional doctrine or with the constitu tional conduct of the hon. and learned gentleman who has moved these resolutions. If I understand the con stitutional doctrine which the hon, and learned gentle man endeavoured to lay down, it is this that the crown has no right either to make war or to make peace with out previous communication with and the concurrence of Parliament. Now, I deny that doctrine to be any part of the constitution of this country. I contend, on the contrary, that the constitution of the country vests in the crown the prerogative and the discretion of war and of peace ; but with this reserve, that when the ad visers of the crown have deemed it their duty to counsel their sovereign either to engage in war or to put an end to war by a treaty of peace, that it is the duty of those advisers to lay before Parliament, if sitting, the grounds upon which either the one course or the other has been adopted ; and if Parliament be not sitting when the interests of the country are deemed to be such as to require a recut:re() to war, I frankly admit that it is their duty to take the earliest opportunity of calling Parliament together for the purpose of laying before them ' the grounds on which that course has been taken. I should be the last man in the world to deny that general proposition. I luaint.i ,, , however, that WI the course to which the motion alludes, there were circumstances, which ran lared it a temporary exception to that rule. I must observe, however, that there is a wide distinct on between the conduct of the hon. and learned gentleman and the doctrine of the right hon. gentleman the member for Oxford. The hon. and learned gentleman declares that in any case in which a war had been undertaken, when no part of the expense was to be paid out of the re volues of the country, that then it was a case in which Parliament had no ground to interfers, whereas the right hon. gentleman contends that even in the case of Indian wa r, carried on within the ' , mite of India, and with re gard to which no char g e whatever would be thrown on athpli'dyc.°unl'"—that even in that case the priticii le would leave the hon. and learned gentleman, and the right hon. gen tleman to settl e which of the t wo princi ples they should adopt. Now, with regard to the case i itself ; I am quite ready to admit that it does involve a question which Parliament is entitled to have well ex plained to them, and which if not less capable of expla nation and if it were drawn into a precedent, might be attended with injurious and improper consequences. But I the right her. gentleman is quite mistaken (and I think he could riot have been present du r i n g the earlier cours e i of the evening) in sa y in g that no ex p lanation has been given by any member of th e governmen t of a n y peculiar circumstances which took mint case out of the general rule. The Cha.ncillor of the Exchequer and the Presi dent of the B oard of Contro l st ated at len g th and in g r eat detailthitt why it was not a c ase i n w h i ca it was nece s s ar y Parliament should be consulted. It has been con tended by some that Parliament should have been ceded together when the force was tent off to Bombay. think my right hon. friend's answer is perfectly conclu sive. It would have been the height of absurdity to have proclaimed to the world that we were making i pre parations for w a g in g war in a certain event which might lor might not happen. Then it was said that Parliament ought to have been called together in September when the Gevernor-General gave orders for the extradition. I pay it was premature even then to call Parliament toge ther, because it was impossible to say that circum stances might not have occurred in India which might I have prevente d the Governor- General fro m p rosecutin g l the war. The earliest moment when Parliament could have been consulted with propriety on the subject was when we bad k nowled g e of the declaration of war. Well , at that time P arliament was called together for the 31 oeafrFlieeb,truary. The Christman h o lid a y s were n ear, and the period at which P ar li amen t cou ld h ave b een called together was the first or second week in January; and therefore the only laches, if there were any ladies at all, was in not calling Parliament together between the middle of Jan. and the 31 of Feb. It the war h a i b e e n one with an Eu ro p ean p ower involvin g g reat and serio us cnaegner ' of and likely to require the immediate co operation p ar liament, be admitted that even that short period ought to have been avoided—(hear)—but cons i. Bering the remoteness of the scene of action, considering that no immediate requisition was called for from Par liament, he thought it would have been attaching more importance to the matter than it deserved if they had issued a proclamation to call Parliament together a fort night sooner on the announcement that war had been commenced in Persia. We did, in the beginning of the session, in the speech from the throne, communicate the fact of this dispute with Persia, and the military opera tions which bad taken place. Where was the hon, and learned gen letnan then f Where was his constitutional jealousy ? Where was my right hon. friend the member for Oxford / Where was my right hon. friend the member for Cambridge ? Where were all these constitutional chain pions ? Silent as the grave. Where was the vote of cen sure ? Where was the reprobation which the hon. and learned gentleman now wishes to draw down upon us ? Why, there are things which are said, like the oak to be long in attaining maturity ; but whea they do attain it their strength and power are great in pro. indig n ation of my hon. and learned portion to the time they have been acquiri n g th e m. And so with the inclig friend. He did not ge t up on the first or second day of the session and say, st you have just got us into a war with Persia and have/ not called Parliament together. I will propose a vote of censure upon you." He has brooded over his indignation from February till July, and now comes forward with a vote, not of censure, but of reprobation, with a strength of lsnguage proportioned to the time it has been suspended and the heat of the weather. (Cheers and laughter.) As to his constitu tional principles, I do not think the country will applaud them, and the time that has intervened and the moment he has chosen prove he is not a very ardent or a very ready champion of our constitutional p rivileges. is the moment he has ch osen ? He has waited until the What feelings and anxieties of the country are roused and ago nised by the accounts we have received from India; he has waited until the moment when the Government are engaged with all their mind and all their thoughts in providing for the difficulties of the hour. But, sir, has customary when a member is about to propose anything nee ? No sir The which he thinks of great importa . , . he even given the house the notice which is usual and honourable and learned gentleman suddenly bethought himself about six o'clock, that he Govern ment last year, and at Di% o'clock he gave notice of what he would do this eveni n g . That, sir, is a departure woaldca yesterday lsattetrednatyion evening, trth e evil doings of the from the ordinary practice of Parliament. He proposed to call the attention of the house to a subject of great importance, with regard to which papers of ome magnitude had been laid on the table ; and I think it was only due to memberse--I do net talk of the govern ment, for we are always ready—(laughter)—l say he has failed in the respect due.to members in not giving them ~~~~ time to ropernte thess papers, and ho should eepeelelly 1 proposed home. ritiolutiona by way Of aresehment to 1 wsite to be &Wish It wee anly fair the deler.tes should have given time to the new members—(laughter)—to the - motion of...going ipto t ganinhtee of Supply, in !he on the sill-Jeer 's as they stood in order on - the paper. acquire intermatien. I now, sir, come to Vitas who order to provide for the expellees of. the Peisian SUPERANNUATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. co eend that the only question before ue i s as t e eh e course war . These resolutiona• may be ceucted in strung Lord NAAS objected to postpone the order for the the govern merit has pursued, and that. is the mai n point laneuege. Teat is of c urse a qutetio:i of d- gree second reedy gof this bill, on the oround th at G o vern• of the resolutisn, although the hon. and learned w h ale- ci Intl: inerrant, but no h-in. geritneeeri will pretend went were in a very cliff-rent position ha m p r i va te man has m ixed up a great variety of topics. He says . teat they do net embody a weistitutitend principle mcnibtrs• Tne Government could fix th e b us i nes s as he does not anticipate much success, as government (hear, hear), or that that; principle ie not expressed in I they pleased, but a private member had no su ch ad have acquired, undu'y as he thinks, and why he cannot . nervous, proper, and parliamentary language. Whether 1 vantage. i m agin e , the general confidence of the country. (Hear, the resolutions apply to the circumstances of the case Sir G. GREY said, the house would meet again to- and laughter.) I can tell him hew we have gaited that I whether the iemerence a hich the hon. and learned gentle- • day at 12, and it was rather hard, after sitting at 12 confidence. His resolutions and his votes of censure man has drawn is sufficiently sustained by the premises, yesterday, to keep members there until 20r3 in the will tend as much to increase the confidence of the people j are questions meet and fit for parliamentary discussion ; morning. It was only reasonable that after 12 o ' c lock as thatcelebrated resolution of his, which led to the great but far proposing these resolutions, which assert the they should not proceed with bills w hich w e re likely to outburst of national feeling. The bon. and learned privileges of Parliament and express a constitutional be opposed. gentleman in the course of his speech, said he looked principle acknowledged even by her Majesty's Ministers Mr H. BERKELEY said that the Civil Service Su upon the overthrow of our power in India and the des- tonight, the hen. and learned gentleman is assailed in perannuation Bill was viewed by th e coun t r y w ith deep traction of our Indian empire as a possible if not pro- tones of vituperation, and is told he is taking an un• interest. He hoped that an opportunity would be given bable event. He was interrupted by a cry of "No" English urse. (Cheers.) The First Lord of the for its discussion. (Hear, hear.) from gentlemen on the other side of the house ;he said, I Treasury,l•feeking of the Shah of Ptrtla, said he bad a The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re " Those are British noes." I wish, sir, that the speech habit of boasting in his Durbar. Wah there are other marked that the Government were casposed to give a and resolution of the hon. gentleman were British. I great men who boast (loud laughter and cheer=)—in d a y, b u t th e y were unable at the present moment to fix say thatit is becaasethe country feels; that the spirit which places which we were once fain to hope were almost as an y time, animates the hon. and learned gentleman is not an Eng- august as the Durbar of a Persian king of kings Mr. S. FITZGERALD hoped that the noble lord lan e s pirit, and that his feelings are not the feelings of Eng- (laughter) ; but if the policy the noble lord recommends would not be content unless the Government named a lishmen, and that his votes of censure have recoiled upon were pursued I think the influence of Parliament would particular day for the discussion of his Bill. (Hear, himself and on those who were found ready to support be so much diminished that we might perhaps have to hear.) hi m , (H e ar, hear.) Some hon. gentlemen have made i veil our- glories before the superior authority of a Persian Viscount GALWAY suggested to the Government little of the cause of the war ; but' sir, are we the only sovereign. The noble lord, having been accused of being that they might easily get over the difficulty by agreeing Government who have attached importance to the inde- a most popular Minister (a laugh), yields to the soft to the second reading. (A laug' .) pendence of Herat ? Every successive Government for peachment, and in the Persian style say s , "True it The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sad that a length of time has held the samo opinion, The Go- I is, I am most popular (laughter, followed by cheers as Thursday morning next seemed to be unoceupied, the verntnents of Lord Derby, Lord Aberdeen, and Lord from the Ministerial side) ; true it i s th a t I possess the discussion might then be taken on the Civil Service Su Melbourne have all felt that Herat in the possession of confidence of the country, but what is the cause? perannuation Bill. (Hear ) Persia would he a great danger to our Indian posses- (Cheers from the Ministerial sid e .) I know w h y I Th e mot eu for the adjournment of the house was then 'hoes. The right hon. gentleman the member for Oxford possess the confidence of the country. (Laughter and withdrawn deprecated any allusion to Russia as instigating Persian cheers). It ie," said the noble lord to the hon. and BOUNDARIES OF LAND (IRELAND) BILL. aggression in the direction of our Indian possessions ; learned member for Sheffield, "in consequence cf your Ties Bill passed through committee. but does not the right hon. gentleman recollect that revolutions." (Laughter.) Now, what were the reso- CRUELTY TO ANIMALS AMENDMENT BILL. when, on a former occasion, a Persian army was besieg- lutions of the hon. and learned member for Sheffield ? I Lord RAYNHAM moved that the order for the ing Herat, and was only presented from taking it by the remember several memorable occasions on which the seethe' reading of this Bill be withdrawn. gallantry of Eldred and Pottinger, it was a Russian hon. and learned gentleman, unsupported by any per- Agreed to. g e neral s ent on purpose to conduct the operations who sonal following in this house, has proposed resolutions. The other orders were disposed of, an d th e house directed the siege, and at the same time another Russian I need scarcLly remind the house of what sas s perhap , adjourned at half-past 1 until 12 o'clock this day. officer was sent to Cabul and Candahar to organise a the most memorable occasion on which the hon. and -- combination? I should always wish to be on the best learned gentleman brought forward a resolution. It was terms with Russia. The war is over, and I trust the a resolution for an inquiry into the state of the English animosities arising from it are effaced from the minds of army before the walls of Sebastopol. (Cheers.) Was Etiglish and Russians—(hear, hear)—but it is one thing that an un - English resolution ? (Renewed cheetah Was • to renew friendly relations with a foreign power, it is it an unconstitutional resolution ? (Hear.) Why, the another to forget the precautions necessary to guard im- noble lord, who was one of the guilty ministers, yielded portant interests of the country. If, sir, Persia was not to the vote when that resolution was carried. (Cheers.) between Russia or. the one side and British India on Another resolution, almost equally memorable, and the other, it would be a matter of perfect indif- which lam sure the noble lord cannot have forgotten, ference to us whether or not she occupied Herat ; was also proposed by the hen. and learned gentleman. but knowing as we do that Llerat is the great This occasion was when the "turbulent and aggressive fortress which leads to Cabul and Candahar, and p ,licy" of the noble lord was properly brought under our knowing that Persia is a week power, under consideration by an eminent inernbLtr of this house, and the instieation of Russia, and knowing that the posses- when a large and powerful party, asserting, as I believe, eion of Herat by Persia would facilitate its occupation souud principles of policy---(cheers)— called upon the by Russia whenever the political relations between her House of Commons to seal with in; strong reprobation and England might lead Russia to contemplate the inva- the ithurioue policy of the noble loaf. The hon and sion of India, and knowing that its nitration by a Rue- learned member for Sheffield then came forward with one s - au force would tend to shake the confidence in our of his un-English resolutions, and by the aid of the hen. power, and the fidelity of our allies, any government and learned gentleman, and by a scant majority, the hich would shut its eyes to the danger of permitting mischievous career of the noble lord was continued. Persia to occupy Herat would be wanting in its duty. (Cheers.) Now, as the noble lord has alluded to the But it is said, admitting this, we might have obtained younger members of this house, I think they may learn the evacuation of Herat by negotiation ; there is clear from this instance what gratitude they wi 1 experience proof to the contrary. The Khan had boasted that he if, in future moments of d laugh). -desirous to had got Herat, and could keep it in his hands. Negotia- save a Minister from a diffituity or to extricate him tion had failed, and we were compelled to have recourse from a scrape—(laughter),—they come forward and to onto to procure its restoration. It is said the negotia- propose resolutions to assist the policy or to vindicate tiona at Constantinople would have been successful if we the conduct of the noble lord. (Laughter) A few had been content with the terms Ferukh Khan proposed. years will passe, and hey will then be held up to the In the first place, he never offered any terms, showing scorn and ridicule of the house as the movers of un he bad full power to bind his master; and in the next E ng lish resolutions. (Some cries of " Oh," cheers and place, ho made it a condition that we should suspend the laughter.) Tuose who vindic Ito the privileges of Par expedition which was thee fitting out. My noble friend Liam sot—(tries of " Oh, oh")—aye, many of the hon. said we made war because Sadr Azim could not be turned gentlemen who in their present zeal utter those murmurs out. He has made a mistake. It was to obtain very dif- —(cheers and langhter)—and who I dare say are now ferent terms that we declared war. The question of peace only too eager to came forward to vindicate the noble or war depended on the acceptance or refusal of certain lord—(cheers) —will learn from the lesson of to-night the conditions, and orders were sent to the troops before future that awaits them. (Laughter.) Now, let us see Ferukh Khan 'had displayed his power, and when he whether the premises of the hon. and learned gentleman learned that the troops had been sent be declined to no- justify the conclusion at which he asks the house to ar gotiate any longer, saying that by despatching an expe. rive Striouely speaking, that conclusion is a very grave dition we had ahered the state of affairs, and it was fur one. ("Oh," and a laugb.) Why, surely, you would his sovereign to decide what should be done. It was a not have me speak seriously of light matters ? I have misapprehension to say peace or war depended on the ac- been answering the light part of the noble lord's speech ' ceptanoe or refueal of certain conditions by Ferukh Khan, —(laughter)—and lam now about to address Wyse fto because orders had been sent to the troops to embark be- what ought to have been the grave portion of it. (Hear, fore the negotiation with him commenced. It is said we hear.) The conclusion suggested by the hon. and made worse terms at Paris than we could have got at learned gentleman is one of great gravhy, and lam not Constantinople. It is quite true we relaxed certain condi- prepared to say that if that conclusion were established thins which we found to be particularly painful to the —grave as it is —I, for one, should shrink from the re- Shah. At one time we are accused of having exacted teo sponsibility of voting for it. 1 think we should place hard terms, and at another we are rebuked for making con- ourselves in a very false position if we asserted our be ces-ions to soothe the feelings of a weak power. (Hear.) lief that the privileges of this house had been violated by I say that those who contend we ought to be friendly the Ministry, and yet shrunk from the responsibility of with Persia ought to approve of our conduct in having condemning their conduct ; but at the same time it is waived certain terms not essential to security, and which necessary that we should scrupulously look to facts, and we were perfectly justified in demanding in the outset, see whether the conclusion we are called upon to adopt but which we found to be grating to the feelings of the is justified by the circumstances or premises alleged. power with which we were anxious to be on good terms. What is the language of the resolution? It calls upon us (Hear, hear) The hon. and learned gentleman has found to say— out that the Persian war is the cause of the calamities " That the war with Persia was declared, prosecuted, that has occurred in India. Why, sir, the very contrary and concluded without information of such transactions is the truth. In the first place, no ntan in his senses can being communicated to Parliament." imagine that the withdrawal of 5,000 men from Bombay Now is that the fact ! (Hear.) I perfectly agree that the could affect the presidency of Bengal and the north-west house has not been treated in this matter with that can provinces. The power of England in Asia depended on dour which I think it would hav e b een w i se if th e Minis opinion, and what would have been the effect on opinion tar, a,, however popular and pow er f u l, h a d ex hibi te d. I c it they had seen England, after having made a great effort not, however, get over the fact that on the meeting in 1838 to prevent Persia from acquiring Herat, and of Parliament, which might have been too long deferred, having protested under successive governmants against and atter an ' atubl urU4 silerce had perhaps, been top it, snow at length, when she had menqurcd swords with l •maintained g long on the part of Government, there was Russia, she had shrunk from the position she had so long an announcement in the Speech from the Throne of a ear maintained, and acquiesced in the retention of Herat in with Persia. (Hear.) I feel that that was the oceasien spite of all her remonstrances ? Such conduct would —at the time the address was moved—when this ' have had the most fatal effect on the reputation of Eag- question ought to have been mooted. (Hear, hear.) I land in the East, for which the retention of 5,000 men do not at all agree with the Chancellor of the Excite in Bombay would have been no compensation. On the quer or other hon, gentlemen, who maintain that this or either hand, the result of the war mu t be advantageousaiiiey,l,iisee any other Indian riars do not require notice from Par to British influence in the East. (Hear.) liament ; but the fact that at the centmencement of this that we were enabled to despatch a powerful expedition war an appeal was immediately made to the Exchequer to Persia, that signal success had attended it, and we of this country marks it out from usual Indian wars, have enforced the evacuation of Herat ;we have gained (Hear, hear.) I cannot, however, agree that, as a a triumph of arms and diplomacy over Persian aegres general principle, all Indian wars are to be taken from sion and Russian instigation, which must be of great the c introl of this house, even if an immediate appeal is value to our reputation through the whole of Asia. So far from admitting the justice of the assertion that the not made to the British exchequer. (Hear, hear.) The basis of Indian finance is the credit of England ; and at Persian expedition was connected in the remotest degree this moment, when we hear of the treasuries of India with the unfortunate events which have happened in being plundered, when no tne can tell by what rnachi- India, I centend it had rather a tendency to prevent them, leery the revenue of India can for some time be collect- The hon. and learned gentleman's own arguments upset ed, we should have acted in a most indiscreet manner— his position in this respect, for he afterwards attempted even if this had been purely and strictly an Indian war to represent the =e events as the resu l t of a long • without any immediate app:-al to the English exchequer prepared combination ; and if so, they caud not be the the la , t —if we had allowed the war to pass without criticism result of the sudden despatch of 5,000 men from Born and disc • Thera • then, before us the important bay. These men have now returned t the shores of faot t . hat u a s t si t o h n e . beginning is ; of the ' last India, and with greater power and greater influence, on session of Parliament we were aplerised that this war had been account of the glory they have acquired, and the honour undertaken. I cannot undeln these circumstances agree and character they have gained. Then, sir, I say there to a resolution which alleges, "that the war with Persia is no ground for the re solution of the bo n . and learned was d ec l are d, prosecuted, and concluded without infer eentlernan on the point of the constitutional principle. motion of such transactions being communicated t m Par- But, even if I did not dispute his constitutional doctrine liament." I think the G wernment acted unwisely and I contend that, under the circumstances, it is rather a erroneously in not communicating their policy to Perlis piece of pedantry than the effect of any substantial re- went at an earlier period ; but I cannot agree that the gard for the rights and privileges of this house. I say late Parliament was itself free from blame in allowing there is no ground for his resolution on account of the the c-induct of the Government to pass so long unnotic policy which led to the expedition against Persia, be- ed. (Hear.) Does it then become an assembly that has cause that policy has had the unanimous approval of been backward in the fulfilment of its duty to agree to each successive government. It was the policy of Lord a resolution of so uncompromising a character as Malmesbury as much as of Lord Clerendon ; and there that proposal by the honourable and learned gentle fore for the house to agree to a resolution which would man ? I confess I cannot but feel that the honourable directly or indirectly censure the p ol icy of the Govern- tleman is right in calling the ' attention of the meat in maintaining Herat free horn Persia would, I gentleman to this subject. I wish he had done so in contend, be a fatal mistake, an I one productive of the a:manner . which would have allowed the expression most fatal consequences to our interests in India. Sir, optnion to be of coatnnort t a il n te u ve n r animous h charactea thi ! on those grounds I trust the house will pass into corn reittee of supply ; for, even if the hon. and learned gen- debate will supposewithou't whatever to our privileges, a Y pen, but I tleman should consider it necessary to divide the house, wish the hon e and learned p gentleman woud not call I trust the majority will tell him that the motion is not upon us to divide upon this issue. (" ! I") It is such as he had a right to expect that the feelings of the ' • not for me to counsel the hon. and learned gentleman, house would agree te. (Cheers) but I shall follow the course which I think it is my duty Mr. DISRAELL — I hope the house will permit mefor to follow. I do not think the premises in this case a very few moments to trespass on its time while I ex- justify the severe and sweeping conclusions at which he plain the course which on this occasion I think it my has arrived, and therefore my course will be to vote that duty to adopt. I will at once dismiss all that vexed the house do go into committee,e numbers of supply. (Hear, hear.) question of Persian politics , with respect to which I The house divided, when tn were— rather still believe that I have m o re accurate inapres- For Mr. Roebuck's resolution 3B Against it sions than appear to prevail on the Treasury bench. Ao- Majority cording to the Chancellor of the Exchequer Persia is the , ers. Some laughter followed the announcement of the num o vassal of Russia ; and according to the President of the Board of Control it is with great difficulty that he can a , • Mr. DISRAELI. asked if the papers relating to the prevent Persia from falling into the hands of England, mutiny in India would be laid on the table to-morrow her natural ally. With dogmas so discordant, and (this day.) opinions so contrary, maintained by two of the most Mr. V. SMITH was understood to say they would be eminent members of the Cabinet on the vital question laid on the table on an early day. as to what led to the war and caused the expenditure, The house then went into a committee of supply, pro forma, when her Majesty's Ministers must excuse me if Ido not place The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER aaid he implicit confidence in their views of Persian politics, should not at that late hour (a quarter to one o'clock) (Hear, and a laugh.) But the opinion of the house o n as k the house to agree to the two resolutions which Persian politics is not, I believe, the question which to- stood on the paper in his name. He should move them night engages our attention, nor do I think it necessary to-morrow (this) evening in a committee of supply. - The house then resumed. to enter into the other question, which, borrowing the On the bringing up of the report of the committee of epithet used to-night, I may call that awful question of s upply, the present state of India, though it has been adverted Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked how the balance re to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and dwelt on by maining unexpended of the sure voted for civil coutin the First Lord of the Treasury, W e at least have this gencies, and which bad been accumulating for several advantage from this discussion, that we have received years past, was to be appropriated ? He wished also to the mature and solemn Opinion of the Government on know whether the Treasury claimed a power to autho the cause of the present condition of our Indian empire. rise expenditure without any examination of accounts, The Chancellor of the Exchequer has informed us that and whether these accounts were aulited 2 India at the present moment is suffering only from a Mr. WILSON sail the balances of civil continnencies, inonrentaryand unexpected impulse arising fromaupersti- which had accumulated fair some years, had been paid lions causes. This insurrection, which extends from the as savings into the Treasury, and an account would Punjab to Calcutta, is, according to the Chancellor of be given yearly of those balances. The Treasury claimed the Exchequer, the creation of merely a sudden impulse. no right to appropriate a Biagio penny voted for civil con- I can hardly believe that such a grave coneequeece has tingencies to any other 'purpose. At present the Civil arisen from so accidental a cause. I should hardly be- Service Estimates were not audited, but he hoped an lieve that that is the cause, especially in respect to our arrangement would shortly be made to refer them to the Indian army, which by its education and interests, and Board of Audit. by every motive which can influence the loyalty of men, The report was then received. ought to be m os t d evo t e d t o ou r Government, that FRAUDULENT TRUSTEES, &e., BILL. should be suddenly found in a state of insurrection on This bill was read a third time and passed. account of the cause alleged by the Chancellor of the DULWICH COLLEGE BILL. Exchequer. I must be permitted to say that I believe the cause of th e presen t s t a t e o f India is much graver This bill w as rea d a second time and or d e r e d t o be (erredre the to a select committee. arid deeper than appears to be conceived by her Ma - COMMONS ENCLOSURE BILL. jesty's Ministers, (Hear, hear.) I believe the present This bill was read a second tim e. state of I n di a h as b een occas i one d by long years of mis government ; and if it be the opinion of her Majesty's JUSTICE AND POLICE FORCE I (DUBLIN) BILL. Minist ers th a t the condition of India Ls attributable to Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD moved that the Speaker such tempor ar y a n d unexpected causes as were alleged by leave the chair in order to go into committee upon this the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I should have much bill. lees confid ence th an I would willinglyaenhatain with Mr. VANCE objected, as he had only just received regard to the remedial measures they have proposed, some amendments from Dublin. and the furth e r measures which I trust they are pre. Me. FITZGERALD offered to postpone proceed pared to submit to Parliament. But, dismissing the ings on this bill to another day, if all the orders of man grove q ues ti on o f P e rsian politics which must soon en- hers which followed were also postponed, gage our consideration, let us consider the real question Mr. GROGAN moved the adjournment of the house. we have to dech4e to-night—namely, the course which Lord PALMERSTON agreedithat it was unreason independently o f passion or of party, we ought to pur- able at that hour (1 o'clock) to expect the house to go sue, The hoc, and learned member for Sheffield has en with opposed bills, but if they were to sit, and there MURDER IN FRANCE. The Court of Assizes of the Aveyron, three days ago, tried a young man named Coutems, for several attempts at murder. After serving some time in the 57th Regiment, he obtained a furlough on se" count of ill health, and took up his residence at the house of au uncle named Ricnard, at L9.vesque• When, on recovering, he was about to leave, he claimed llfr. 50c. from his uncle, which he pre tended to be due, but the uncle not considering that he owed anything refused to pay. He thee cited his uncle b; fore the juge-de-paix, but the claim was dismissed. This irritated him greatlit and he frequently declared that he would kill his uncle and his aunt, even though he should be sent to the hagi,e for life for so doing. In th e evening of-the 15th January he went into a neigh" hour's house, and in spite of than person's objee - Cons carried uff his gun. With it he went to th e house of his uncle, and finding him seated befel l : the fire in the company of some friends he raise d the gun and cried out, " in the name of the law , you are dead !" at same time pulling the trigger! but the gun missed fire. The persons preseau rush-d on him, and not thinking lie had really je tenclt.d to k , ll turned him out of doors. After ,f!, while, seeing his uncle open the window, he age' attempted to discharge Vie gun at him, but it ga t ''' . missed fire. He then went to the house of a fenas', ° , neighbour, and begged her to go and tell 11 ''' uncle that he was sorry for what he h a d doll and was willing to drink a b ittl e o f w ine W it ., him as a proof of reconciliation. The worasr o went ; but no sooner had she opened the unel e „ door than the prisoner, who had followed her, charged his gun at his uncle ; this time it went au l and the charge struck a servant man in the brea st, wounding him, but not seriously. The jury e• elated the man guilty with extenuating circar ri ; stances, and the court sentenced him to five yea r hard labour. Country Markets. BOSTON—JULY 15. A. fair attendance at our mar k e t t o -d a y, but tbe 1 1 has been a very dull trade, prices for wheat receding ' lj oie 3s per qr. The weather continues very fine, and from to j splendid appearance of the crops there is every prospec ni s one of the most abundant ha t vests o n record. Spring C" unaltered. Prices :—Wheat, red, 52s Od to 62s Od; new, —a to 411 white, 60i 0 t to 64s Od; extra, 665. Barley, 403 Od to ai 01. Oats 25s to 31s. Peas, 40, to 443 Pd. Beaus' Od to 49s 01 per qr. NEWARX—JULY 15. s ld A good attendance and a plentiful supply of St $0 of all kinds. Wheat experienced a heavy sale, at full,' below last week's prices. Wheat, white li4.s to 68s, red 62s to 61s; barley, 1335 40, to --s, grinding 36s to 10s; oats, 24st. 34s to :36 3 , Isl 28s to 30s ; beans, 4 , s to 503 ; malt, 73s to 80s ; Pea" to 50s ; tares, 44s to 48s per qr. LOUTH —JuLy 15. id " Our market this mornin g was thi n l y a tt en d e d, awl" was little business transacted, at prices a trifle under terms of last week. Wheat, 603 to 64s ; extra, Gds ; barley 41s to 44 3 ; 24s to 28s ; beans, 44s to 48s. • MANCHESTER—JULY 16. A small attendance to-day, and a very limited bilig e l doing in wheat. American 2d per 70ibs cheaper. at oll English flour offered at a decline of Is, but a were r 4 1 . 1 0, business doing. o,its and English beans ruled very ', 0 •1 Egyptian beans and Indian corn Is to 23 dearer. Oaten rather easier to purchase. EDINBURGH GRAIN.—J'uLt 15. The supply of g ra i n o f a ll ki n d s t o -d a y was good -o r season. Sales wer e h eav y, exce pt f or b ar l e y. wheat siderably back. Wheat, on the top, 2s 6(1 down, and on the el, 2s 2d 2d down. Barley, 23 Od up o n the top, and 'a 04 up ou the average. Oats on the top Os 6d up, or the average Os Id down. Beans on the top 4s Od 11 1 / ' ou the average --s Od up . AVERAGES PEE IMPERIAL QUARTER. Wheat £2 6 5 8-1 2 lb ° ' Do. new -I : 3tt Barley - Oats 1 10 810-I'2 o h °• Beans Total Supply and Sales. Wheat 1403 qrs sold, 758 V II Barley l9B qrs sold, , 161 , 1 04 Oats 642 qrs sold 468 "l r : Beans l4 qrs sold (11.- DERBY SMITHFIELD.—JULY 14. 'There was but a moderate supply of fat beastsb ° i which were well old, fully maintaining the prices °e fof week. The supply of sheep and lambs was less- 4 f ore, mer a heavy sale, the latter readily disposed of. P - 4 0, supply of calves, and few buyers. Fat pigs not an s' supply, and a clearance effected. to A t The following were the quotations :—Beef, 6)' IA a mutton, 7d to 7Ad ; lamb, 8d to ; veal, 61 tc to lb. ; pigs, La 0,1 to lOs Gd per score; rough fat, 5s 3 / per 141 b.; hides, 44d to 6.,c1 per lb ; call-skins, 44" per lb, LOCAL SHARE MARKETS. LIVERPOOL. JULY 16. STOCK EXCHANGE.--The transactions in this r t - ii ty to-clay have been steady, and prices at yesterdaZ; 4 South Eastern, 2 6 Lonlou and N , rth-llot 103 4 a —Sheffields, 43A —Lancashire and Yur,.. 10 )4 c—Midlands, Bn—Great Western of Cau 6 "s —North Eastern, York, 36—Ditto, Leeds, 22$ Trunk of Canada, lii—Gdedonian, 38—Blackbur n ' Eastern Counties, 11—Dutch Rhenish, 4 d. MANCH ESTEE, JULY IG. STOCK EXCHANGE. —The market opened roue , po i aGtive to-day, with firmer prices. East Lancashir, vIY 91., if d.—Leeds, ti 83i—Dovers, 2 ,.?! —Grand Trunk of Canada, 13-3 Sheffields, 4 " East Lancashire Pref., Fifths, 7-16 prem.—Londo n North Western, 1034 Eastern Counties, 111 BIRMINGHAM, JULY 16. bo i STOCK EXCHANGE.—The market was dull to -(14 ,,j0re prices were Arm. Birmi ng h am an d St our Va1109 6 , - 0 11 N---London and North Westerns, 1021103—Gro ot tern Stour Valley Guaranteed Stock, 81, THS. OF ♦ MON. - C.8.0a the 15th inst., at Dover, the wife of Colonel On the 15th inst., at Bath , the wife of C. M. T. Esq. OF A DAUGHTER. On the 15th inst., at 2, Hamilton-place, Piccadil"' o f Countess Vane. On the 13th inst., at 29, ,Gracechurch-street, the ' Mr. William Blanch. MARRIg'D. Si r ; e , On the 16th inst., at St. George's, Hanover-give: L .6) d d Bowyer, Esq., secou:i son of Sir George Bowyer, P n - OP, O RE Sarahas q ,t . t , e y oNfv H toh o e, u l : 3ll e e , ir: B i d e ly i e k oriu s , , en a tgla n ep r. r l i D e, daughter e b u a h r a s t m C e r o o . f u a l t . Shirley: la ( w if4 r i '11 0 ; On the 16th iust., at St. Margaret's Church, " o f ' O l ster, the Hon. Edward William Douglas, fourth B ° l l t o Ea:l of Morton, to Augusta Anne, youngest danS the late Right Hon. G. Bankes, M.P. for Dorset. DIED. O t ' On the 12th i ns t ., su dd en l y , a t D ar t mou th-b° 00: 4, James's-park, Hannah, the wife of Henry Woode, 1, M.P. oelei ° On the 14th inst., at Brook House, Ross, ob i shire, Tho mas Ed war d s , E sq ., s o li c itor, of tha t l e aged 63. do e% On the 11th inst., at West Brompton, Elizabeth,,.oo, ter of the l a t e Mr. Edward Giles, of Stoke Newiecoe°' On the 13th inst., at Romford, Essex, Mr. Johu ages 69. f 701 On the 14th inst., Francis Sadler, the eldest e°l°,oto William Williams, 4, Wellington-terrace, N B A aged 't 4. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Oill' 0 00" 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, if tho of Middlesex, Friday, July 17, 1857.. I tic oft it De: th, of CI tic to th r t ,"! Ili ret ray Ali *or