The Sun. — London, England, 1847-04-24 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, April 23. ROYAL ASSENT. The Royal Assent was given to-day by Commission to the following Billet-- The Exchequer Bills Bill, the Mutiny Bill, the Marine Mutiny Bill, the Indemnity Bill, the Markets an d Fairs Clauses Bill, the Gas Works Clauses Bill, the Commissioners Clauses the Waterworks Clauses Bill, the Troops during Elections Bill, the General Register House Edinburgh Bill, and the District Fire Insurance Company of Bir mingham Bill. The Lord Commissioners were, the Lord Chancellor, the Earl of Minto, and the Marquis of Clanricarde. The LORD CIiANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool sack at Five o'clock. Lord LYTTELTON presented a petition from Stour bridge in favour of a national poor-rate.: In reply to a question from the Earl of WICKLOW , The LORD CHANCELLOR said it was his intention to move the second reading of the Encumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill on Tuesday next. Lord REDESDALE presented a pet ition from the guardians of the North Eastern Union o f the cou nty of Suffolk against the Poor Removal Bill. etitions against The Duke of RICHMOND presen ted p the Poor Removal Act. CUSTOMS' DUTIES BILL. Lord STANLEY presented a p e tition from the cor poration of Dublin against the atheCu itionstoms from' Duti the es Biight 11. The Noble Lord also presen pet e inst the further reduction distillers of England . g a of the ;differential duties a he rum. After reading ex tracts from the petition, e said that although there were only eight s i gna tures to this petition, the i n t eres t s which the y represented might be judged of from the a mount of Excise duty they paid , into the revenue. This amounted to no less a sum than 3,500,0001- a year, the whole amount of the revenue from the Excise being about six millions. He had also to present a petition from Scotland regard ing a case which was somewhat different to the one he had just troubled their Lordships with. It was from the distillers of Scotland, and they complained that while they were subjected to both the Customs and Excise duties they were only allowed a draw back of half the duty they had originally paid. He had also petitions to the same effect from Suther land and numerous other places in Scotland. Lord MONTEAGLE presented a petition from seve ral large distillers in Ireland against the Bill, and pray ing their Lordships not to pass the Bill into a law with out bestowing upon the subject the gravest considerations. He also presented a petition from some gentlemen of the highest respectability in some part of Scotland, the _name of whom did not reach the gallery, complaining of _Ae hardship inflicted upon them by the present regula tions with respect to " the allowances. VENTILATION BILL The Earl of FITZWILLIAM gave notice of a mo tion on the subject of the Ventilation Bill. tM'e'STOMS' DITTIES BILL. The Earl of CLARENDON moved the second read ing of the Customs' Duties Bill. The differential duties of 6d., would be sufficient to meet all the incidental ex penses. The duty on rum at present was, for England, Bs. 7d., for Scotland, 4s. ld., and for Ireland, 3s. sd. The duty last year was reduced from Is. 6d. to ls., and there was no complaint heard from the distillers in consequence. His Noble Friend ascribed that to the circumstance of the alteration being made nearly at the close of the session, but this could not operate to pre vent the distillers from expressing their feelings on the subject, bad they felt aggrieved. A claim, however, had since been put forward for a diff e r e nti a l duty of Is. 4d. per gallon, but it was estimated on the other hand, that making every allowance they were not en titled to a differential duty of more than 2d. He would now the state the grounds on which this claim was sought to be supported. The Noble Lord then went over the various details, which in the estimation of the distillers entitled them to this difference. The claims of the dis tillers in Scotland reached so far as Is. 6d., but on a careful examination of the subject they were allowed 9 id. only. But the Irish distillers had an allowancelof Is. made to them, because it was supposed that they laboured under greater disadvantages than the distillers of England. Originally the allowance made to the Scotch distiller was ls. 4d., but it was afterwards reduced by a Committee of the House of Commons to Bd. The Irish distiller claimed a penny, but he thought the claim could not be supported, in as far as the Irish distiller was amply compensated by the 31d. allowed to the English rectifier for his loss in the pro cess of rectifying. If the whole of the spirit distilled in this country wore to be distilled from malt, the duty must be charged as a differential duty, in the same way as it was charged upon the foreign or colonial export introduced. The Scotch distillers did not, however, use malt. It was used only for the purpose of making a better spirit, in improving its quality ; and if the Scotch distiller were allowed a drawback on the malt, he might just as well claim something for the spices and essential oil which were used in their manufacture. Now, if they were to give protection according to the ingredients used in the manufacture of spirits, they ought at once to listen to the claim of the English distiller for protec tion ag ainst the competitio n t o w hi c h they were su b - jectedby Scotland and Ireland. The quantity of spirit manufar lured in England was 5,500,000 galls. per annum. The quantity imported from Scotland was 2,150,000 galls. and from Ireland, 1,400,000 gallons; making a total of 3,550,000 gallons imported from the two countries, showing a competition with British spirits to the extent of three-fifths. He did not think, therefore, that the clai us of the Irish and Scotch distillers to further pro tectien could be entertained. They were already in a most favourable position to enable them to compete with the British manufacturer, and with that advantage they ought to be satisfied. Lord STANLEY said, the great question to be eon sidered was, what amount of deity ought to be paid which would be most equitable between the English dis tilleries, and those of the colonies. The Duke of 'MONTROSE said this question had never been fairly discussed. The Scotch distillers did not ask for further protection. What they wanted was, to be placed in such a position as to be enabled to com pete successfully with the colonies. The pro tective and differential duties were originally pro posed by parties who never consulted the dis tillers, or any 'portion of their body, upon the subject, or a broader distinction would have been drawn between spirits produced in Scotland and the spirits of the colonies. The consequence was the excise regulations inflicted great loss upon the Scotch distiller In cold weather the excise did not allow sufficient time to admit of malt going through the pro cess of distillation. Besides the foreign distiller was only charged for the amount of spirits which was taken out of bond, whereas the British distillers were charged for the spirit when it left the still. The loss incurred by this alone amounted to a considerable sum, and entitled the distillers of this country to the differential duty they claimed. The various processes also which the English distillers -were obliged to carry on in different places, and at different times, in the manufacture of their spirits, was an additional argument to induce the Government net to propose' any reduction on the differential duty. Mr. Guulburn stated that the case of the Scotch distillers had been much over-rated, but he (the Duke of Mon trose) thought that the ex. Chancellor of the Exchequer did nut come to a correct conclusion in making such a statement; for when the various excise regulations and restrictons were carefully considered, there could be very little doubt that the estimate of claims had not been over stetettl. He had not the least hesitation in saying, that if these various restrictive regulations were removed, there would be some grounds for proposing a further re duction in the duties, but so long as they remained as burdens on the British distillers, it was only fair and just they should have that protection, which placed them on a level with the colonial spirit producers. He would, therefore conclude by proposing, as an amendment, that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee. He did not think their Lordships were competent to judge of the present question without a knowledge of details with which they were not at present acquainted. It was his firm belief that if their :Lordships acceded to this Bill they would arrive at a judgment without a due knowledge of the subject. They had to deal with a question in which is vast amount of employ...st,vas required. The only Gar...A ',Quid be to throw a large amount of poor on their respective parishes, and th a t at a p er i o d when the landed Interest and the poor were enduring their respective necessities with the greatest forbearance. There was another view in which the measure was to be considered. The taste for whisky was so strong that it was not to be supposed that the inhabitants of Scotland would quietly accede to a measure like the present. Lord CAMPBELL—This was a subject of consider able importance to the interests which it would effect. lie earnestly hoped that their Lordships would refer this matter to a Committee of the whole House. -The Duke of RICHMOND said that perhaps his e Noble Friend knew better how to drink Islay whiskey than how to make it. His Noble Friend did not appear to be very conversant with the subject in all its bearings. A mature consideration had been promised for this measure at the close of the last session, and the result of that promise was a further protective duty imposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That addition of 31, 'which_ e w as ma d e b y t h e Ch ance ll or o f th e E xc h equer t o the sum which he at first proposed, was made on the representatio n Of the distillers themselves. His Noble, Frienti th ought that the sum of 6d. was quite sufficient' for these distill er still stronger rettaso"al then unconsci ous ly , made out a and dr trusted inquiry, which was de manded. He h ope d tax wotthaidtbae l r o e n v g ea ti e m: would not elapse bef ore the malt e tax was a burden which ought since to have been removed from th e statute b oo k. "g The people had long since agitated for cheap bread astst upTen cheap beer. , and th ey would now • Lord STANLEY said that it might be true that the question of free trade did n o t enter into this disu but a question of justice to two great interests diccliensitoetnr fere—two interests which might be materially afre d by the course which might be taken by the House. He had heard with much astonishment the declaration of the Noble Lord opposite, that 6d. was a fair and sufficient compensation to the distillers. He was not one of those who would call upon their Lordships to make great sa crifices for the West India interests, but he did say that neither the West India proprietors, the Brazilian, or the Cuban proprietors, had any right to ask to be placed in our markets, in a position superior to the native menu feeturer.—(Hear, hear.) He granted that they might be admitted upon an equality. This question was ono •shich turned upon the accurate calculation of the smallest rums. NotrltAciejld had said that he would give !ci these distillgrslnheft tlerlAimed 6d. His reason wing oilleqiestre4 -- fsetleat. - ft thought, from caf e ,l , tr.ons - ,e that that sum would meet the dpia f fili• •.4 - \was really begging th e w the consideration o fel.;. ft was . r- re d or the distillers. There were upon the distill er ri4y-restectioxisi which wero\ s vii ti o j ur i ot it Due notice had t o performed in tie given of evegy opP,ration-dititotis to be TRE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY -- the distillery. They were not allowed to open more than one vat of wort at the same time, and if there were two vats of wort in the distillery, and one of these vats burst, although there was a plug from one vat to the other by which all the wort could be saved, yet the distiller was prohibited by a heavy penalty from drawing that plug; and, if the excise-officer were not present, he must see the liquor run to waste. At the same time, let their Lordships remember that the value of the contents of one of these ordinary vats was 1,5001., and the duty which was paid upon it was 1,2002; so that not only did the distiller lose 1,500 L, the value of the wort, but 1,200/. the duty paid upon it, and not one shilling of which would be returned to him by the Excise. Should their Lordships allow any interference with the rights of people so heavily oppressed as the distillers already were, without some inquiry into the mode by which they were about to alter a system which had existed for years. He trusted that their Lordships would not refuse their assent to the motion of his Noble Friend behind him. _ Earl GREY admitted the ability of the speech of the Noble Lord who had lust sat down, but he could not agree with his conelusions. He considered the argiles ments of the Noble Earl who had made the motion for the second reading had not been answered, "and he would simply confine himself to the question as it had regard to the colonies. With regard to the differential duty, he thought 6d. a gallon would be a fair difference, but in the other House it was found that it would be difficult to carry that, and therefore it had been changed to the 9d. now proposed. The amendment of the Noble Duke for a Select Committee, was only a side way of getting rid of the Bill altogether, as they were well aware they had no power to alter any of its provisions. Should the Select Committee report and recommend to alter any of its provisions, and they should attempt to give effect to that recommendation, the Bill would be lost altogether. The Bill, in its present form, had received the sanction of a large majority of the other House, and he could see no benefit that could arise from the course now proposed. The case of the Scotch and Irish distillers had been as fully stated by the Noble Lords who opposed the Bill, as it could be before a Select Committee. On the other hand, the advantages of the Bill had been as well stated by the Noble Lord, who moved the second reading. This, then, was the proper stage for deciding the ques tion, instea d: of leaving it to a Select Committee. In 1830, the distillers of the country made a representation to the then Chancellor. of the Exchequer, pressing their case on his attention. All they then claimed was a differential duty of ls. 6d. a gallon. By their own showing, 9. d. of this, was on account of the extr a p rice of grain. Since then the corn-laws had been repealed, and now the real differeace they could claim, according to their own showing was but aid. Now, the pre sent Bill gave them a differential duty of ninepence, which was full as much as they claimed in 1830. This was a Lull and paid duty. But it might be told him that this applied only to the English distillers, and left out of consideration the Irish and Scotch dis tillers. Now he considered the latter were as well off as the English distillers. This was shown by the fact that the Scotch distillers could at present meet the Eng lish distiller in his own market, and beat him. This was further shown by the fact, that at present, of all the spirits distilled in Great Britain, the quantity distilled in Ireland and Scotland was as five to four. This arose from the superior flavour of the article made in those countries, as compared with that of England. These distillers, therefore, would be as able as ever to compete with the English distillers. He trusted that their Lord ships on these grounds would agree to the passing of the Bill. There were other reasons why they should do so. Last year the colonies had been exposed to great com petition, and ill feeling and excitement had been the re sult; but by the late advices the report of the measures now in progress of being passed, had done much to pacify them, and a better tone and feeling now prevailed. He could conceive of no course more fatal to the prosperity of the colonies than the rejection of this Bill, and there fore he implored their - Lordships to assent to it, sanc tioned as it had been, by an overwhelming majority of the other House of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) Lord MONTEAGLE said their Lordships, in passing the former customs, had been guilty of a great injus tice to the distillery interest of this country. Upon former occasions, in justice to himself, he had occupied a good deal of their Lordships' time and attention, in endeavouring to induce them to resist several proposi tions on former Customs Duties Bills ; but unfortu nately his warning was net listened to ; and now their Lordships, or rather the Government, seeing the folly they had been guilty of, were retracing their steps. — (Hear, hear 4 He entertained many objections to the present measure, and he must again occupy the time of their Lordships while he pointed out to them, that in passing this Bill they would be again be guilty of injustice towards a large manufacturing interest. The distillery trade was most complicated, and with the scanty information their Lordships had before them, he was sure their Lordships were not in a position to come to any positive conclusion upon this subject. Why, then, should their Lordships resist inquiry ? It was a matter which required the most careful and minute investiga tion. By their former legislation, their Lordships had nearly ruined several of the most extensive distillers of this country, and with such a lesson as that before them, he thought that (not only their Lordships, but her Majesty's Government, ought to be anxious for inquiry. But no. The Ministers who had already addressed their Lordships, not content with resisting the particular inquiry, had gone so far as to declare that all inquiry was unneces sary. Many eminent political economists and commer cial men differed in their opinions upon this subject ; and, with the knowledge of that fact, it was their boun den duty to institute an inquiry. A miscalculation of Government upon a former occasion had nearly involved many parties in ruin ; and, to guard against another such catastrophe, he trusted their Lordships would not be led away by the specious arguments of Noble Lords who are opposed to an inquiry. Upon these grounds, therefore, he should vote fur the amendment of his Noble Friend opposite. Their Lordships then divided, when there appeared— For the amendment 4B ' Against it .. 57 Majority against it The Bill was then ordered to be committed on Monday. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 23. The SPEAKER took the Chair at. Four o'clock. ROCHDALE WATERWORKS. - . On the motion of Mr. W. PATTEN, the report on the Rochdale IVatervtorks Bill was further considered and agreed to, and ordered to be engrossed. BATHWICK CHURCH BILL. Mr. W. MILES moved the second reading of the Bathwick Church Bill. Mr. ROEBUCK opposed the second reading of the Bill, and moved that it be read a second time that day six months. The object of the Bill was to levy fresh rates upon the parishioners, to raise funds which had been rendered necessary by the [aches of the trustees of the parish for the last thirty-five years. They had misappropriated funds that had been com mitted to their charge upon a most sacred trust, and it was too much, after they had placed themselves in such a situation, to come down to that House and ask them to sanction an Act of Parliament to get them out of their difficulty. Dr. BOWRING seconded the amendment. Mr. W. MILES justified the conduct of the trustees who had been great losers, and trusted that the House would sanction the Bill. Lord DUNCAN supported the amendment. Lord W. POWLET r was in favour of the second reading of the Bill. Mr. DICKINSON said that, if the House sanctioned the second reading of the Bill, he should be prepared to go into the consideration of the measure in Committee without bias either to one side or the other. Mr. ESTCOURT supported the second reading. After a few words from Mr. HENRY BERKELEY, the House divided, when there appeared— For the second reading 7l Against it Majority in favour of the second reading —52 The Bill was then, after a few words from Mr. Hume, Mr. Hudson, and Mr. Af. J. O'Connell, read a second time. bridge—that the petition respecting' the Harwich Railway should be referred to the Committee on the Bill. The grounds on which the resolution he had moved was founded were contained in a petition presented to the House from the shipowners, and others connected with the shipping interest, between the north of central Europe and the port of Harwich. The petitioners stated that in the session of 1843-4 two Bills were introduced into Parliament for railways to the port of Harwich, and were both lost. In the ensuing year two other Bills were brought in and lost on :some technical formalities in the standing orders. Two other Bills were introduced the next year, and one was re jected by the House of Commons, the other by the House of Lords.—(Laughter.) He suspected that in the case of any other two rival lines their Bills might be liable to share the same fate, and, therefore, he ex pected that the House would accede to the resolution. Mr. STRUTT, who was very indistinctly heard, on account of the noise in the House, was understood to say, that, in the respective circumstances of the case, he had no objection to offer. Mr. HUDSON wished to know whether this was to be taken as a precedent in future, or whether the Rail way Commissioners had power to decide finally on the various cases of railways that came before them ; for he (Mr. Hudson) knew many Bills of equally grave im portance in. like circumstances, and pressing on the attention of the House. Mr. STRUTT referred the Hon. Member to the clause of the Act of last year in reference to the powers with which the Commissioners had been constituted. Captain BERESFORD thought the matter before them was one of great importance, considering the great traffic, by steam and other shipping, which existed between the port of Harwich and the ports of Central Europe. That was the reason which would make this measure most desir able. The port of Harwich was an exceed ingly fine one ; he had often seen five hundred sail of merchantmen lying in the harbour safe and secure, and the Government had kindly consented to spend a large sum of money for the purpose of improving it. The line was put so far back in the classification list—to the 31st of May—that it would be utterly impossible that it could pass the present session; they had made repeated endeavours to pass it through Par liament, but hitherto their efforts had proved ineffectual. Sir R. PEEL said that there were public reasons why there should be a communication by railway from;London to Harwich, for the public were about to incur -a consi derable expense in the alteration and improvement of the port of Harwich. He thought that there was nothing more lamentable, than to see rival schemes wasting their money on lawyers in opposing each other. He had not the slightest doubt that if the Railway Commissioners took the matter in hand, and brought the parties toge ther, they would come to an amicable arrangement, and thus spare the expense which had been going on for three years, and the result of which would be the in crease of the tolls to the public. It was infinitely pre ferable to come to such an adjustment, and the parties themselves would, he thought, be willing to abide by the decision of the Railway Commissioners, whose friendly arbitration would spare the necessity of spend ing the money of these companies. *Mr. F. FRENCH did not think that the parties would be at all willing to refer the matter to the decision of the Railway Commissioners. The motion was then agreed to. EXPENDITURE IN IRELAND. Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice that, on Thursday next, he should move for a return of the money hitherto ex pended in Ireland, and the mode of application. AFFAIRS OF PORTUGAL._ Sir DE LACY EVANS rose to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, or the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, respecting the result of the inter cession of the British Government with that of Portugal, concerning the Generals and troops who were lately granted an honourable capitulation by Marshal Saldanha, and who are said to have been since transported to the penal and unhealthy colony of Angola, in the present case referred to, the troops retired with the honours of war, and were promised to be treated as soldiers usually are under such circumstances. He regretted, however, that this had not been the case. They bad been marched to Lisbon, put on board of ship, and crowded together in the most oppressive manner, and afterwards, as he understood, had been sent to a penal colony in Africa. He admitted the Government had a right to detain these parties, but not to treat them with cruelty; the present Government had promised to inter cede, but three months had transpired and nothing was done. He wished to know, whether the Noble Lord the Colonial Secretary could give any information on the subject. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that at present the belief was that these persons were not sent to Angola, but that it was intended that they should be sent there. The ground stated for this determination was that they had friends in Lisbon, and that it would be dan gerous to allow them to remain in the country. This did not appear to the British Govern ment a sufficient reason, and they instructed their representative at the Court of Lisbon to express their objection to such a proceeding. The Government had not yet received any communication in reply, but they had every reason to hope that the intentions of the Por tuguese Government would not be carried into effect. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. In answer to a question from Capt. PECHELL, Lord J. RUSSELL said that he could not at present state on what day of the week the Health of Towns Bill would be taken. As it might assist the House in forming some estimate of the manner in which the public business would be taken, he might inform them that, on the assumption that they went into Com mittee that night, and came to the conclusion on the debate with respect to the vote for education, he should propose that the report be received on Monday next. After that his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer wished to take a vote, in order to enable the Exchequer Crown Commissioners to advance certain large sums to the furtherance of railways in Ire land, which they were unable to do at present, It was proposed on an early day to take into considera tion the Prisons Bill. On Friday he proposed to take the two Bills which had reference to Ireland, viz., the Poor law Supervision Bill and the Bill for the Suppression of vagrancy. The Hon. Gentleman who had the conduct of the Factory Bill in that House, had applied to him (Lord J. Russell) respecting the difficulty of obtaining an early day on which the third reading might be taken, and he proposed that a Go vernment day should be given for this purpose. He, therefore, intended to apply Monday, 3d of May, for that purpose, and on Monday, the 17th, he proposed to go on with the Railway Bill brought in by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Strutt). IMPERIAL CONTINENTAL GAS ASSOCIATION BILL. This Bill was read a second time. PAYNE'S PATENTS ASSIGNMENT BILL. This Bill was also read a second time. The following reports were brought up and received : Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Railway (Extension to Melford, Lavenham, and Clare). Great Northern Railway (Deviations between Peter borough, Boston, and Gainsborough). Shrewsbury and Birmingham Railway Act Amend ment and Branches. Sir Augustus Clifford appeared at the table to sum mon the House to the House of Peers, to hear the Royal Assent given by commission:to certain public and private Bills (for which see Lords' report). EDUCATION. Mr. HUNIE presented a petition from the ministers and presbyters of Derbyshire, adopted at their annual meeting, repealing their protest against any appropria tion of the national fund for the purposes of any sect. BURY AND IPSWICH RAILWAY. Captain PgCHELL presented .a, petition against the Bury And Ipswich Railway- . ' ' ' ' Mr. NEVirDEC4ATE said tlitit he was very anxious to call the attention of the House to a petition which had been presented against the Trent Valley Railway by the magistrates, clergy, and gentry resident at Nuneaton. The high road leading from the market-place of Nun eaton, in which centered the high road leading from Co ventry, Birmingham, and Allaston, was to be raised six feet, for the purpose of being crossed at a level by this line. The opposition which had' been brought forward by some mistake had never gone Ise fore the Committee, otherwise the railway company would have been compelled to build a bridge. He hoped that either now or hereafter something would be done to meet the wishes of the petitioners, and in order that e t e h m a t p t l h ai e ne d d iffi ec cu m lt i y h w t h b i e ch rec th ti e fied. inhabitants of Nun- Mr. STRIJTT rose , but, g in consequence of the confu sion in the House at the time, it was almost impossible that the Railway Commi ssi on ers lill was a d ae nt down,understood to an say that the Railway Commi ssi on ers had sent down an en works,ammpireaectticableto who had reported that petitie c n on er struct the road in the g it in w e o e u r ld to be ex i manner desired by the , were altho not gh Under these cir cumstances the Commissioners felst.thaUt authorised to give any decided reeummenclatthieoyn their re g r e t sanction that i they could not help expressing parties to the railway had not given thei r oth: crossing on the level so near to a town of importance. NORTH MIDLAND RAILWAYS. An HON. MEMBER presented three petitions in favour of those branches._ HARWICH RAILWAY. Sir ROBERT PEEL begged to make the motion of which notice had been given by his Right lion. Friend the Member for the University of otra. FACTORY BILL Mr. BRIGHT said that he understood that a me morial had been presented by 408 manufacturers, em ploying 14,000 workmen, with an invested capital of 14,000,0001., protesting against any further interference with their trade by means of the contemplated Factory Bill. Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to give it. HEALTH OF TOWNS. The Earl of LINCOLN wished to ask a question which had become necessary, as the Noble Lord had now stated the business which was to occupy the House for several days in advance. The question was as to when the Health of Towns Bill was to be taken.. This was a subject of considerable importance—of so much importance, indeed, that her Majesty's Government had deemed it advisable to notice it in her Majesty's speech at the commencement of the Session, and he trusted therefore that the Noble Lord would appoint an early day for the discussion of the Bill. Ho thought the Bill might be taken on the 10th of May, and then some day might be fixed shortly afterwards for proceed. ing with it through the subsequent stages. Lord JOHN RUSSELL would give an answer some day next week. NAVY RETURNS. Lord INGESTREI wished to ask when the ret urns , for which he had moved on the 19th of February, would be made. Mr. WARD said that they would be laid on the table on Monday. WOOLWICH CONVICTS. Mr. DUNCOMBE wished to know whether the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Home Department bad received the report from those eeimmissioned to inquire into the condition of the convicts at Woolwich, for he thought that when the discussion was taken the copy of it would be exceedingly valuable to the Members, and he trusted,l therefore, that there would be no objection to print the minutes of it with the votes. Sir G. GREY had not yet received the report, but when it came he did not think that he should have any objection either to lay it on the table, or to print it for the use of the House. AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS OF SCOTLAND. Mr. FORBES wished to know when the retut77s7f the Scottish statistics would be laid on the table, as it was now necessary for the regulation of the rights of the tenant• farmer. Mr. M. GIBSON said that the machinery for England and Wales was not necessary for the measure for Scot , land, and the measure would be brought in at the earlies possible period. EDUCATION. Mr. EWART said he had attempted several sessions to induce the Government to make regular statements annually as to the state and progress of educa tion. He understood that he had the assent of the Noble Lord to the propriety of such a statement ; and he now begged to know whether it was the intention of the Government to•order such a statement to be made annually. Sir GEORGE GREY said the measure which bad been before the House several nights, made such a statement so much more desirable. Sir. W. MOLESWORTH begged to ask the Noble Lord whether it was his intention to bring up the report on Education the first thing on Monday night, for, Lord J. RUSSELL—Yes. Sir W. MOLESWORTH continued—Then he would adjourn his motion till that night. Mr. EWART gave a similar notice, in reference to certain amendments which he had on the paper. ADJOURNMENT OF THE lIOUSE. The CHANCELLOR, of the iIaIEQUER, moved that the House at its rising do adjourn till Monday. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—EDUCATION. On the order of the day forgoing into Committee of Supply, Lord J. RUSSELL presented a number of petitions, which were not specified, further than that they were in favour of the Government scheme of education. Sir W. Cl a y, Mr. Roebuck, and Mr. Bright presented several petiti ons , f rom var i ous p l aces , ag ainst the Go vernment schem e o f e d ucat i on. Sir G. STAUNT ON presented a pet i t i on f rom Ports mouth, very numerously and respectably s i g ned, pro testing against th e G overnment - scheme o f e ducation, which they d eemed unsound in principle and unconsti tuloonally int ro d uced. ne felt bound to s ay that he totally disagreed from th© • ' e opinions put forth in the pe- EVENING, APRIL 24, 1847 . tition, but he could not refrain from saying that it was most respectably signed. Mr. Alderman HUMPIIERY and Capt. PECHELL presented petitions against the Government scheme. WESLEYANS. Mr. T. DI7NCOMBE presented a petition from a meeting of Wesleyans repudiating the compromise en tered into with the Government by some of their own body. GOVERNMENT SCHEME OF EDUCATION. Sir W. CLAY moved, on the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair on going into Committee of Supply, with a view to the grant for the promotion of education, that it is expedient that in any plan for promoting the education of the people by pecuniary assistance from the State, provision should be made that in schools re ceiving such assistance, the opportunity for participating in all instruction other than religious should be afforded to children whose parents mayobject to the religious doc trines taught in such schools. Having stated the reasons which induced him to withhold his support, he should be enabled to comprise his observations in a very short space The House had thought fit to affirm by a very large majority the plans brought forward by the Government; he bowed to that decision; but he deeply regretted it. The House, instead of endeavouring to form a plan of national education, placed itself at the head of a vast sectarian scheme. As far - as he was concerned he should offer no. further opposition to that plan in its general cha • ratter; but he should by his motion, endeavour to alter a portion of it ao defective, that he thought that his Noble Friend would hardly oppose the remedy he proposed. The part of the plan to which he alluded, was that which took from the children of those persons who differed from the Church of England all power of sharing in the elu tion which was furnished at the expense of the State with out becoming parties to a religion which they did not own. The present measure would operate most unjustly against the Nonconformists. In every parish in the kingdom there would be a school established in connexion with the Church, and they would be enabled to comply with the conditions laid down in the Minutes of Education, so as to participate in the grant. On the other hand, in the rural districts the Nonconformists would rarely be able to comply with the conditions for a separate school, and they would either be obliged to send their children to the Church school, or go without altogether. The Hon. Member here read an extract from -a petition of the LOndon Auxiliary School Union, respecting the in vidious distinction. The petition was ent i t l e d to great consideration, representing ninety-seven schools. He thought the injustic of which he spoke ought to be re medied, and therefore he proposed the present motion. If it were agreed to, and the Minute altered in ac cordance with it, then there would be difficulty in educating the children of both parties together. Now he directed his observations solely to the case, that those who were in the minority, either in numbers or in wealth, had no right to complain—firstly, because he believed that they would meet with the sympathy of the House ; and secondly, because it was asserted that the children of Dissenters might obtain their education in the schools of the Church of England. Of course, where the Church of England was in the minority, the converse of this position would take place. He should therefore move, that in all schools which might be established through the aid of the Government grant, provision should be made for giving to the children of Dissenters all the instruction afforded other than religious. On the motion that the order of the day be now read, Mr. CHRISTIE said that it was with great pain he refused to accede to the request of his constituents, to oppose the motion olthe Government, and instead of op posing it, he felt bound to give, not a cold and heart less, but a cordial and earnest support to the plan. He had • made many ineffectual attempts to catch the Speaker's eye during the last debate ; had he succeeded in doing so, it was his intention to have stated the grounds upon which he was prepared to give his most cordial assent to the measure proposed by the Govern • meut. With respect to the amendment just proposed to the House, he thought that the proposed plan of the Government for considering such cases as those referred to by the Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Sir W. Clay) as special cases, and treating them as such, would sufficiently meet all the difficulties referred to by the Hon. Member. He considered that the proposed minutes had been treated rather unfairly by the opponents to the measure.—(Hear.) In the year 1832 a law was passed, placing the Catholics and the Jews upon precisely the same footing as the various sects of the Protestant Dissenters, and he hoped that as the claims of the Catholics were promised to be attended to by the Government, that the claiins of the. Jews would not be overlooked. The Hon. Member for Kent (Mr. Plumptre) had stated that the House would, by giving assistance to the Roman Catholics, bring upon itself the charge of in fidelity. Upon such a subject he (Mr. Christie) could not quote a higher authority than that of the late Ed mund Burke, who stated, in his correspondence which had been recently published, that a system of full, fair, and perfect toleration would be in perfect accordance with his own opinions, and that his views of toleration were even more universal than the ideas entertained upon that subject by the Dissenters themselves. In the com mittee of supply they would be called upon to vote nu merous sums for the cause of education. Among others there would be a vote for the London University, to the benefits and scholarships of which the sons of Dissenters showed not the slightest objection to participate in the advantages conferred by the State, and shared equally with themselves by the Roman Catholics, and he would ask the Wesleyans, who had shown such a decided anti pathy to allow the Roman Catholics to have any share of the Government funds for the purpose of education, how it was that they could reconcile the fact of their allowing their sons to mingle in that University with the Roman Catholics ? Mr. VILLIERS did not think that the charges of ineon sistency brought forward by the Honourable Member for Weymouth (Mr. Christie) could at all dispose of the objections urged by the Honourable Member for the Tower Hamlets, which was the duty of affording extended education to the children of the Dissenters. The Dis- senters were, it appeared, resolved to refuse the assistance of the Government, and this he thought would be a lesson to the Government not to leave the subject of the education of the people in the hands of any religious societies. Should the Dissenters refuse the aid of the Government, the consequence would be that a great number of the children of this country would be left without education, and the efforts of the Govern ment to educate the people would eventually be made, through one religious society alone. He thought it most desirable that there should be a general system of education, in the benefits of which all could equally pertake, and this could only be done by separating the secular and religious education of the people. He quite agreed in the opinion of Dr. Vaughan, that in all schools connected with the Government provision should be made for the religious education of the children, who might thus be allowed the benefit of such education in such cases as their parents might think desirable. He thought such a system was the only practicable one that could be carried out. He was quite ready to admit that they were at present only in the infancy of the cause of education, and he was happy to hear the Noble Lord et the head of the Go vernment, say that the present measure was not a final one and that his wishes lay in the direction of a more extensive plan of education. The Noble Lord had done all that he could do in the cause, and he thought that for ssch a cause he was de serving of praie. He could not, therefore, join in the oppo sition which had been raised (he must say most unexpectedly to him) to the proposition of the Government. If he under stood his Noble Friend, the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, in the two speeches which had been delivered by him on the subject, he said that he had been anxious to attend to the wish of this country to extend the benefits of education to the poor, that he had done as much as was possible with the mate rials which were at hand, that he did no; dispair for the future but that the system for the time being was not complete. But he (Mr. Villiers) did not join with those who objected to the plan. He thought that the Dissenters is the objections which they had taken had rather taken their friends by surprise. Consi dering the subject before the House merely in the view of a money vote, he could have no objection to the manner in which the discussion had been introduced into the House. But lie was sorry that such a subject should have been dis cussed as an item in the miscellaneous, ind that no time had been given for the discussion of any amendments that might have been introduced upon it. He knee that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government lad stated that no more sums of money would be yetis( for this purpose. except by Bills brought before Parliammut. (Lord J. Russell —No, not by Bills.) He certainly expected that the same order which had always ruled in that I bus° on religious mat ters, should have been observed on that. They know that no thing affecting either religion or commerce could be brought in unless in a Committee of the whole Hulse. That made him think the amendment moved by the Hcn. Member for Fins bury (Mr. Duncombe) som e wh a t approriate, and therefore he did not vote against it. At the same t,me, he thought the Government had met with great difficul ies, and they had con tended with them to the utmost ; they lad done all that they could. Therefore he hoped that the words of the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth in the House last night, would be pondered over throughout the country when he in effect said that that was not the time of day when they ought to exclude the children of the poor from the benefits of education by sq""'sl , es "non which It pursued must necessarily retain the country hopelessly in the same situation as it was at the present moment in regard to education. _ Mr. FORBES felt it necessary, after all that took place in that House, not to vote on the measure without some explanation. He understood that it had always been con sidered, in the country as well as in the House, that the authorised version of the Scriptures should be made use of in the Government schools, an d inculcated th ere as a part of the e du c atio n . But after th?, m otion of the H on . Baronet, the Member for Surrey, and after the speeches of the two Right Hon. Baronets last night, he felt it necessary to give any vote associated with such an opinion as he had heard, his most decided opposition. Mr. MUNTZ sa id t h at h e h a d endeavoured, throughout the discussion, to hear wherefore he should vote for the Government. He had suffered too much from the interference of secular and religious questions with liberty, not to have thought seriously on every such question coming before the House. But he ob jected to th e p ropos i t i on of the Government. The proposal was not to educate the people, but the poor. but he objected to He did not object to the amount to be levied for that obect • the principle. That • ' principle was te l tax ' the w hole in to give it t o a section of the on. That order n et was the pri nc i p l e w hi c h he always o bj ec t e d to in a ll measures, motion and he ther e f ore f e l t t h e more inclined to s upport the of the Hen. Member for Surrey. The benefit of a good edu cat ion on all classes, and especially the labouring classes:l was e ha ad clearly evident to him, after the long perience h been said that a of the employment of workmen. But it ex had That id secular education was necessarily a gedle , s 'm e ' parents, who not follow, for the children were left to theirinstruction they were at liberty to give them spiritual what ular educe thought proper. He had long thought that a see to be that tion, founded on a general national system, ought adopted. ed. He thought so st i ll, and he would ther efore vote for the proposition of the Government. Mr. STAFFORD 0 n --:—RIEN regretted that such a qtes tier, as a vote for education shouldn , occasion, be im peded by religious differences. He on envoetr'see how they could ea ch individual ever progress out of their present condition, if scheme, Member in that House stood up, .advocated hi s °wll What was very and professed his determination t p o , follow that. singular in the historyquestion, was of theagitation n this o , an, an entirely that among the opponents to different grade of opinio the Government P' , ds ted out of doors from those which had been and principles c.- in the House. All the communicar been expressed been ions which had addressed Northamptonshire to him fro thee . m e northern division of in Opposition to the scheme foundedtheir opposition to it . orr , t on those which the objections urged In Crosby Hall, and ne the " by —on. he had heard a d vocated in that House, either for Durham. Member for Notti ngham, or the Hon. Member . If the Nonconformists who bound thenaselves up with " liturgy be thought to be in a state of permanence as regarded theology, so far might they be regarded as in a state of per manence in political opinion. Therefore the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton had no right to be surprised at what fell from the Hon. Member for Durham. Those who petitioned at Crosby Hall were not to be met with statistics of crime, and then asked, was such a state of things to exist ? For they said that they i egretted such facts as much as they did lust. They believed that the course pursued by the Government, would not ameliorate, but would rather do harm than anything else. He wished some Hon. Member would get up in that House, and show that the Mem bers for Durham and Nottingham, and the meeting at Crosby Hall, had pursued a course inconsistent with their own prin ciples. Such a statement had not been as yet made, and therefore he considered that the destitute condition of the people had been unfairly pressed as an answer to their objec tions. The object of education ought to be to secure the in stitutions of the country, and to render life and property more secure than hitherto. This did not appear to him capable of being effected without pions, religious, and secular instruction. Dr. BOWRING said that he felt it a shame and an oppro brium to the country in which they lived that the people should have been left in the condition in which they now found them. Switscrland, Germany, and the Continent excelled them. He must acknowledge that the voluntary principle had failed to convey instruction to the great masses. He only regretted that the project of her Majesty's Government was so framed that it could not dispense the blessings of education. It had never succeeded anywhere, and it never would. He always believed that secular instruction was eminently religious ; it taught Christian charity, and the duties which one man owed to another. Was not this religious ? But what was generally meant by religion ? Why he found that the dis tinctions of creed were those which were understood. As far as he could see his way in this question, there was only one solution of it. Ile desired to see religious education extended, but he did not wish to see that religion enforced by one class over the consciences of other classes. In order that religious instruction might be effectual, they ought to let that instruction be given by the clergymen of the sect to which the parents belonged—by the'paren:s and by the guardians of the children themselves. There was no such thing recognised on the continent as a religious education. He had visited con tinental schools, and he had asked the masters what was the religion of the parents of the scholars, and the utmost astonish ment was expressed that he should have asked such a question. He grieved to think that into this great field of national bene volence so much religious acrimony—so many antipathies —so much bitter animosity—should have penetrated. He, perhaps, did not know like these opponents, what was charity, and he held that on the side of animosity was error, and on the side of truth was charity. Mr. TRELAWNY said, that if he were disposed to oppose the grant of her Majesty's Government he should not do so on the ground that the grant was unconstitutional. Nor did he object to the grant because it was different from the former grants. He sincerely believed that this was essentially the same with the grant of 1839. Neither did he object to it on account of its amount, for he thought it was a trifle when com pared to the importance of its object • but he did object to it that it excluded the Roman Catholics from its advantages. Neither would he object to it on the ground that it remunerated young men who were fitted for the offices of monitors and teachers. He, however, objected on principle to schools in which religious tests obtained, because, as was proved by Dr. Vaughan, they' would engender continual quarrels and jealousies from the conflicting sectarian interests. He thought it was a great hardship that Dissenters should be obliged to receive religious instruction at Church schools, because, while the Churchman alleged that the Dissenters taught what was true, but that they did not teach the whole truth, the Dissenters again said that the Churchmen taught more than the truth; therefore, although the former might receive instruction from the latter, the latter, on every principle of justice, could not be compelled to receive instruction from the former ; but in a matter of education, he thought that the Dissenters had nothing to com plain of, because, although they might with justice complain of the inculcation of doctrinal points, that objection could not hold in a matter of secular instruction. He should give his cordial support to the measure of the Government. Mr. BIIoTHERTON said to fit a man for his duties in time and eternity, there must be a higher, than mere secular education. He might perhaps admit that this measure would enhance the power of the Church, while it restrained that of the Dissenters; but that was not the main question. The question was, would it be for the good of the people ? He thought it would, and therefore he should vote for it, inasmuch as he thoUght that in so doing he was assisting the cause of the peo ple. The Hon. Member then proceeded to quote from the sta tistics of Manchester to show, that in the last few years the proportion of those who could neither read nor write was in creased instead of diminished, arid this, he thought, furnished sufficient proof that the voluntary system did not meet the exi gencies of the country. He concluded that the rights of con science ought to be respected. He recollected that our be loved Qneen had recommended that the rights of conscience ought to be respected ; but how were those rights to be res pected if there were not opportunities given for the education of the children of Dissenteri. He had many letters at the pre sent moment in his pocket, from Wesleyan Ministers, who com plained that there was no opportunity for the educa tion of their children under the agency of clergymen ; and he was therefore ready to vote for any measure which would have the effect of reducing this evil. They had taken many measures for the punishment and for the correction of criminals, but they had grievously neglected the prevention of crime. He could not forget that they spent 2,500,0001. for the punishment of crime. He recollected that they had spent 16,000,0001. in the army and navy, and yet they grudged the money that was necessary for the improvement of the educa tion of the people, and he believed that if they meant to ob viate the evil they most make education on the basis of that improvement. He could not forget that there were 20,000 churches, while there were 120,000 public-houses, and until they soberised the people they could not possibly expect that crime should be at all reduced. He had none of the preju dices against a dominant church which had been so loudly proclaimed for if they were to look at the voluntary system below the surface, they would see that there was much of compulsion in it, for so long as the principle prevailed that the lower classes depended upon the rich for their subsistence, there must be a liability of the poor and labouring classes to be oppressed by their more wealthy neighbours. He had voted in the minority last night, but on a reconsideration of the cir cumstances he felt assured that many of the difficulties would be obviated, and so long as the Commons of England had a yearly power of controlling the principle by an annual vote, they would have the means of exercising a judicious manage ment over the education which would be provided for the people. With these views then he had no hesitation whatever in supporting the plan of the Government.—( Cheers. ) Mr. ACLAND said that it was with great diffidence he expressed his opinions on the present occasion, but a sense of duty alone hark compelled him to state his feelings. He had to-day received a letter from a clergyman whose name if mentioned would command instant respect, but which he should not state, because it was probable that if published it might possibly lead to a breach of the harmony that now existed between him and his dissenting brethren.— ( Hear, hear.) That clergyman had established five schools in his parish, in which there were 1,130 schools, 351 of whom alone were the children of members of the Church of England, so that only one third'of the whole of the scholars were the offspring of those who were likely to accede, without hesitation, to the plan of the Government. In the whole of his course of instruction, he had adopted the principle of uniform education, and when it was put to the parents whether they would con tinue their children or not, but a very small number had been inclined to withdraw their children. From another source he had received a communication. It came from a clergyman who had established, not day schools, but Sunday schools, and in those schools he had adopted one uniform system of tuition, and when it was put to the parents, they had, without hesitation, declined from withdrawing their children from the school, so that he was convinced that it was not because the Dissenters objected to any system of education which might be adopted h) the Church, but because he believed that they were indisposed to hand over the souls of their children to the care of the Church that they opposed the plan. But the plan of the Government proposed nothing of the sort, and the question then arose whether there was to be any education adopted or not, and if the plan was to be opposed, it was really to be considered whether it was ad visable to occasion an opposition from the clergy of the estab lished church, instead of a willing co-operation on a matter of so much importance. Truly and sincerely did he thank the Government for the minutes, for he believed that the plan was likely to be of the greatest advantage to the country. He thought that now the jealousy arising from the inspection of the State, was entirely removed. Ile had entertained very serious ap prehensions as to the ultimate designs of the Committee of Council on Education, but he now felt bound to say that the Council had removed those apprehensions, and he for one begged to express his admiration of the practical nature of the details, and the fairness of manner in which those minutes had been drawn up. He thought that really the Sunday-schools of this country were not deserving of the obloquy which had been cast upon them. He thought, indeed, that the teachers of those schools who, voluntarily and at great trouble to them selves, devoted their time and attention to those schools, were deserving of the greatest praise. He must, however, admit that the schools established throughout this country, were not altogether what they ought to be, and in some cases the present minutes of the Council would not reach the case of those schools, and he hoped that on some future occasion the Committee of Council might be enabled to prepare the minutes in such a manner as to afford that advantage. He did not think that the present Government were deserving of the charge which had been brought against them, of not bringing the situation of the Catholics, with respect to this measure, fully and fairly before the House. He gave his most cordial thanks to the Govern ment for the measure they had introduced, and trusted that the measure would fulfill the most sanguine expectations of its promoters. The Dissenters had taken a great objection to an expression used by a Right Rev. Prelate, with respect to the ordination of the schoolmasters_ He (aer. Aoland) must say that he should most decidedly object to the money, to be paid to the schoolmasters, going to the support of ordained deacons. He hoped that such a question would not again be disturbed by a party spirit. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. Messengers brought up several Bills from the Lords. Mr. F. BERKELEY rose to oppose the proposition of the Government He considered the whole vote if devoted to education would be most worthily deserved. He, however, disapproved of the way in which the Government had brought in the subject ; for if it bad been introduced into the House in the form of a Bill, althought they might for the most part have acceded to the principle, they might have differed as to the details. He fel .m t it necessary t o di sapprove o f th e d om i na ti on w hi c h the ehrew i n t o th e h an d s o f cer t a i n part i es name d in spectors."e Who were these inspectors to be? Why, nine were to be clergymen of the church of England, two of the church of Scotland, two lay inspec tors , and th e rema i n i ng t wo were t o be dissenters. H e did not wonder at th e f ears w hi c h h a d ar i sen a out of doors, wh en such proposal was made to increase the wealth of a church which i :t a le n ad s ; l: possessed that in abundance. It was less a source of the people than of serious consideration to the Members of that He was afraid turn out as whether this measure would not ultima tely great a failure in practice as the Small DettilloAct, which the Member for Dorchester had prevailed on the He felt it necessary to record his vo u t s e c against the some years ago. the measure, and those with whom he had been in the habit of acting. Mr. PAKINGTON rose to call the attention of the House back to the subject before it, viz., the amendment of the Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets. He felt himself obliged to vote in favour of the principle of the amendment. He was not prepared to give up the principle, long held sacred in this country, of associating re ligious with secular education. Still he was not ready at that moment to accede to any motion which would make it compulsory on the schools in connexion with the national system to adopt that as a part of their course. The concession would very soon have to be made in favour of the voluntary efforts in religious matters Sir BENJAMIN HALL ALL thought that the great object of the government, now that the House had assented to the scheme of education, should be to render it as palatable as possible to all classes of the people. He would therefore sup port the proposition of the Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets, and he was surprised to hear the course which the Government were likely to pursue on this occasion. The Hon. Gentleman was proceeding to enter into the general question, when he was interrupted by Sir J. C. Hobhouse wi th the re mark that " Molesworth's m otion came on on Monday." He was aware that Molesworth's motion came on on Monday— (Laughter)—but this was the twelfth time he had attempted to address the House on this q uestion, and he therefore thought that h he eh no 941-d u Permitted to expreso the opiaictue he ell tertained upon it even though Molesworth's motion— (Laughter)----did come on on Monday. He objected to the I exclusion of the Roman Catholics from the grant, and he con sidered that any scheme having for its object the education of the people, while at the same time it excluded a large portion of the people from the benefits of it would never give, and never should give, satisfaction to the country.— ( Hear, bear.) H e th oug h t that unless they passed some reso lution like that which was proposed by the Member for the Tower Hamlets they would not give a fair encouragement to the clergymen of those parishes to which he had before alluded, He, as a landowner, was not prepared to set up schools where the Dissenters would be excluded. He would not vote for any system which comprehended a compulsory power; he did not think that such a system could with safety be applied to thi s coun t r y They were often in the habit of hearing the Prussian system lauded, but what was the fact, notwithstanding all this education in Prussia ? The State was everything and the people were nothing. It was true they had lately obtained some kind of a Liberal con stitution, but it could only be regarded as a step in the right direction—(Hear, hear )—and nothing more. The Hon. Baronet then read an extract from a letter written by the Secretary for the Massachussets Board of Education, which stated that he never saw a more vicious set of boys, and evil passions more strongly developed in the countenances of the people ; and he, the Hon. Baronet was yet to learn that the people of Prussia, after three hundred years of a compulsory system by her Government, were a better disposed people than the English. Unless the Government gave some assurance that they would carry some such proposition as that of the Member for the Tower Hamlets, great dissatisfaction would prevail. He voted . against the Government because he thought the measure would widen the present religious differ ences which existed in the country. Mr. HENLEY said that he thought the Hon. Baronet was very unfortunate, because many gentlemen who expressed themselves in favour of his principles, yet were determined to vote against him, indeed two Right flon. Baronets on this side of the House ( Sir R. Peel and Sir James Graham ), while professing themselves to be strongly in favour of the measure, threw in a few observations which were as little likely to facilitate its passing through the House as the explosion of a barrel of 'gunpowder.—(Loud laughter.) He warned the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, and those who were with him, and who were acting under the paetence of these Minutes of Council, that if they attempted to give the Church of England, or any body in this country, any sort of aid in consequence of what was said in that House —if they attempted to force on the Church of England the education of the people in a way which it conscientiously be lieved. was not the right way—that they would meet with an opposition which they had not calculated upon.—( Hear, hear.) He should not have noticed this point so strongly had it not been for the speech of the Noble Lord at the head of the Go vernment. The Noble Lord did in that speech use very strong expressions, and he (Mr. Henley) could tell him, that they had been much noticed in the country. It had been well said hi, a high authority the other night, that the Church had of late years, by the course it had adopted, taken a considerable hold of the people. He would ask if that fact arose from the Church having sacrificed its destinctive principles, or by any system of slip slop religion? They knew that it was by their increased zeal for the people's welfare. The Church stood more upon its destinctive principles than it ever did, and honestly and stedfastly refused to give up what he believed to be its right, and he hoped that she would continue to stand fast upon her rights. If, however, the Church was not to instruct the youth under her charge in the religion she believed to be the true one, she weuld not instruct them at all. Such had been the course. taken by her during the last ten years, and owing to the zeal and good conduct of her members she had obtained that love of the people which the Right Hon. Bart. had alluded to. Hold ing that opinion as he did, it was impossible for him not to vote against the amendment of the Right Hon. Baronet op posite. Sir GEORGE GREY said that he would call the attention of the House to the fact, that from the time his Right Hon. Friend made his motion, until the time when the Hon. Mem ber who had just spoken arose, not one word had been said with reference to the particular motion. The debate had been entirely upon the general question—it was in fact a continua.. tion of the debate of the three preceding nights. He for one was unwilling to interrupt the present discussion upon the ge neral question, and if gentlemen desired to express their opi nions, they had a right to take the present opportunity of stating their sentiments The Hon. Member who had just sat down had confined himself to the particular motion, and he was free to say had called the attention of the House to it. He differed from the Hon. Member in some points, and especially in his supposition that the Government was about to adopt the system proposed. He hoped that although it was not the in tention of Government to attempt to force or impose, as a ne cessary condition, upon all schools receiving the Government aid, that they should extend their education and instruction to the children of those parents who objected to the religious in struction of the Church of England—that the practice was becoming prevalent in many cases, of not enforcing the instruction in the catechism and liturgy upon the children of those parents who objected to their receiving such instructions. He rejoiced to say that that liberal feeling and good sense was becoming daily more prevalent. Some short time since, an Hon. Gentleman said in that House, owing to a similar sen timent expressed by his Noble Friend at the head of the Go vernment, that it was the intention of the Government—their avowed intention to enforce such instruction as a necessary condition on receiving those Government grants, and he (Sir George Grey) had endeavoured to explain a few nights since, that such an act would be totally inconsistent with the course which the Government had in view. They did not propose to establish a system, to imposs any conditions as to the kind of instruction to be given in those schools re ceiving Parliamentary aid, they only proposed to assist existing institutions to increase their usefulness and efficiency relating to secular instruction, subject only to the condition of inspec tion. Ile confessed that if the Government adopted the prin ciple of his Hon. Friend, it would be totally inconsistent with the desire they had to increase the voluntary efforts of large bodies. The National Society and the British School Society would have to remodel their arrangements. Such a proceeding would put a stop to many voluntary efforts, which the Govern ment did not want to supersede. He thought, therefore, that spoken,the ap e a h s e t n o s t i h on e s c ez d r u e e s t set o l f b t y h t e h G e oliznim.mMeenzbwer!vireho ,hotdvrlaesiti to wish it, that perhaps by a voluntary arrangement was ite th c e o l s n e sis c t i t: i n i_ t of every denomination dren of different the s l e e c a t s s t in mightreriaf interfering n b gb r ot h hu t together—that n de a without in c m t others religious Such a wish was different from enforcing this .' sCl t iool regulation in the arbitrary manner which the Hon. Member had mentioned. He should, therefore, not feel at liberty to support the motion of the Right Hon. Baronet. Mr. ROEBUCK said that there was one thing very grati fying to all the friends of a liberal education in this country, to see the very many attempts which were made to forward this educational measure continued in the universal feeling expressed by every person whose opinion was worth having on this matter, as to the absolute nece of some education,for the people, and also the discusaio i s ;to what sort of education was most fit for her Majesty's subjects. He wished even at that late hour if the House would permit him to Bay a few words as to the principle which governed that vote. It remained now to be admitted as a general principle that it was the duty of the Government to provide, or attempt to educate the people. The other question they had to consider in spite of the intelligence out of doors, was the nature of the education to be so bestowed. It had been admitted that the Government was justified in attempting to educate the people, and therefore he should not attempt to prove it. He would assume also that it was the business of the Government to edu cate the largest number of the population that it was possible. The Noble Lord the Member for London and the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth stated together that it wouldbe of no use to give the people half an education. If the Government objected to give half an education to the people, there was certainly a difference between doing that and giving an education to half of the people. He would give the children in these schools knowledge on which all parties were agreed. Whether it were geography, mathematics, or any other branch of knowledge, it mattered nothing, they all agreed as to the necessity of teaching it, whether they were Roman Catholics, Baptists, or Presby terians. He now came to the fashioning of the habits of the rising generation. This consisted in the moral influence of the family, the opinion of society, the law, and the influence of a future state of reward for virtuous conduct. All these went to form the character of the individual. Now, what he would wish to know was, whether any difference existed among all these parties as to the teaching of them. No, they all agreed in the obligations of the moral law, and in inculcating a belief in a future state of re wards and punishments as beneficial to the habits and conduct of the children who were to be taught. Whether they dis puted about consubstantiation or transubstantiation, the Douay version or the authorised version of the Scriptures, they all agreed as to the teaching of the moral principles to which he had referred. It was only when they introduced their fantastic dogmata, supported by prejudice, passion, and ignorance, but not by virtue, that they differed and disputed. It was by these dogmata, these peculiar theological opinions, that disturbances were created, and a noise made about the necessity of a reli gious system of education. Let them avoid such causes of dis pute as these, and in their education admit only of such religi ous teaching as was permanent and common to all, and which did not raise the phantom of religious hatred and enmity throughout the kingdom. What he would ask on the present occasion was, did the Government not introduce into their scheme that religion about which there was no difference, and that religion about which so much difference prevailed? Take the Roman Catholics. Among them there were many men who were good fathers, brothers, citizens, and Christians, in spite of their religious prejudices. The same might be said of all the other religious sects, in spite of all their differences. What, then, did the Noble Lord mean by this teaching of religion which he proposed? He (Mr. Roe buck) did not object to their teaching the moral duties of life, and to a state of reward for virtue hereafter ; but he objected to their laying down any standard by which other men were to be judged on religious matters. The Hon. Member ( Mr. Plumptre) had endeavoured to lay down such a standard, and had said as much as that all who would not agree with him would be doomed. (Hear, hear. ) If the Hon. Member had substituted a for o perhaps he would have much better expressed his real meaning. —(Loud laughter.) He objected to this setting up of authority. The Wesleyans had come in, and they had objected to the Roman Catholics participating in any of the grant in a document they had recently issued ; and they, fainting with a glorification that they hoped ere long to have full religious toleration. Such toleration with them, however, meant, that it be only tolera tion of their own sect. They wished to exalt themselves as the standard of all virtue. He, however, had no faith In such toleration.—Hear, hear.) It would appear that the Wesleyans had entertained some doubt as to the minutes of council, because it appeared to favour the suppo sition that the Roman Catholics would be allowed to partici pate in the grant ; but now, it would appear, after sending applications to the Government, their minds, it would seem had been partially satisfied. The Roman Catholics were to be excluded. There satisfaction was in proportion to the exclusion of the ether party. He must say the conduct of the Govern ment, in this matter, had exhibited anything but fair dealing, and had it not been for the honest and manly expres sion of feeling, the hallucination produced by this tortuous policy, would have continued in those who had put faith in the minutes of council. In a country lik e t h e i rs , f u ll o f re ligious opinions and dogmas, it was i m p oss ibl e to create one s y s tem which could be taught under o ne roof , and, therefore, t h e y would require either to have a multit u di nous number o f sc hools, or, throwing away religious do gmas, permit the teachers a each sect to educate the children who panding qualities of a had great were the offspring of parents holding parti cular opinions. was of an India-rubber text confidence, however, in the ex conscience.—(Laughter.) It --before the year 1848, prob.re, and, ere many }ears expired clasped to the bosom of the )ably--they would see the Catholic s the Government. The Ne remt er,and included in the v o t e o f " I will teach every sect in :ble Lord, in reality, at present said, assure the Noble Lord w ets own school-room, but this he could leyans. They would not.s exceedingly offensive to the Wes to propagate what the take the money of the Government they took it in order t,lioble Lord conceived to be error, but Jation in which they , o rescue the people from the deep degra ,_ wed. e took it as a er of policy • they to " it ere for plun purpose h the of y repressing vice and removing error, and t was only by steps like these that the people could be elevated • it was only by a course like this that they could, in pa r t dispel the darkness which had gathered round them, and s knowledge would nly when the Government increased in :he period arrive when all the people of the country would be f ;ducated and enlightened. Thus they would advance day by d e. , in knowledge, in wisdom, and in Christian charity. Lo JOHN RUSSELL was really exc eedingly sorry to trouble the House with many observations on this subject, and after the statement which he had himself made last night, and after the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet , the IVlember for Tamworth, he should, but for the speech which had j ust been made, have considered that it was totally unnecessary to enter into any explanation of the views of Government on the subject of education. He did think that the statement which had been made by the Marquis of Lansdowne, on the introduc tion of the measure, would have entirely set the matter at rest at least so far as the Wesleyans were concerned. But the l ien ' Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) had raised a creat ure of ble own imagination. He seemed to suppose that the Wesleyans had come to a decision, that the Government had never con templated the granting any assistance tothe Roman Catholics and had represented that its several members h ad evinced . an elastic conscience in the proceeding which they had now adopted. But without the least reference to the transactions of the present year, he migh t refer to the year 1830, when he had put forth the principle that Roan° Catholic scols ouht be established. The principle bads indeed, been adopted in to 1833, and the assertion, therefore, tha t they had never contemplated the establishment of such schools was a perfect absurdity. In 1839 he saw that public opiejen was opposed to him on this subject, and he had endeavoured te, overcome it, but in this he was mistaken, and had determine!: therefore to wait until a revulsion of feeling should oc cur, an the time should come when the measure could be carried iv 4!: effect. He had said that public opinion wonld'come round , seu that the opportunity would occur when the schools vv ould be established. He had repeated this Opinion last nights an d he did conceive that the whole question had been se ttled by the divisio n t which the House had coe last night. The not e : which he o had read were, he con m ceived, amplY su fficle ip. ° to prove that he had always contemplated the e stabliv t ment of Roman Catholic schools.—(Loud cheers.) ..,, I1 it had been represented that he had first seen a i Wi r...i. --- Catholic Bishop, and then had refused to act upon the d, at which he had then arrived. He had certainly seen s highly respectable Roman Catholic Bishop, and had stated to hini,_'', l d in the event of the question being raised, that no 6 " (. , ' be done without having a consultation with him. But in rep l y . ' to the observations, that he had refused to meet Dissenters'," might remark, that he had lately seen two deputations from ... Leeds, and that he had, in addition, seen a great number ofde' putations, but these deputations occupied a great quantity of Urn s _ .. • —(Loud and continued cheers)—and the affairs to which De . . was obliged to attend, necessarily called for his con sideration; —(Loud cheers.) The motion of his Hon. Friend depen,drAl upon a point on which a very small portion of the debate n. 7. turned. And he regretted this, for if it had been otherei the House would have more rapidly come to a decisioot• —( Hear, hear, and cheers.) In 1833, he had propos d e gren t c 6° . the National Society, and the British and Foreign School ''" ciety, and he believed that the Right Hon. Baro net the, ef i l; '1 her for Tamworth was quite right instating last night, th_." , Wesleyans had no objection to the diffusion of education i- the Roman Catholics. But stripping this question of la w ; t& . difficulties by which it was surrounded, he could never alt l 7 ( & the assertion, that the instruction was to be altogeth.e,,,et,oo secular character. He had hoped that this measure woo spy put an end to religious disputes.—(Cheers.) He had for m s - years been a member of the British and Foreign Seh°° l 0 clear, and that society had never permitted any instructiible on ' be given except that which was founded on the Bc o . . (Cheers.) As his friend, William Allen, ha d stated, all, • British and Foreign schools were the schools f er t , t iee for he believed that no man desired inst ru ale. ~ who did not wish to be taught the principles of the ,r o ster .. Therefore if his Hon. Friend the Member f or the ',.„Dt. Hamlets persisted in his motion he would depri ve the di"- ing body of a grant of 100,000/. per annum. ' After a few words from Mr. HARRIS, t the Mr. HOWARD complained that the Noble Lord a te i i head of the Government had been guilty of a w ant of co!t to the Roman Catholics, inasmuch as he had ref used tog r 1.., - . interview to Bishop Griffiths, and other Catholic bishops, tay vious to the 19th inst., while at the same time he had sir" , := granted an interview to Mr. Jabez Bunting and the Ter • n 4.. 4 c , .. He should most certainly vote in favour of the m otion , „et , ,to - Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets, because he wi e r-. 7 e , ,,':‘ ''' '. 4..' see justice done to ail classes of the country. ... ',l4t ...",•' Mr. ACLAND explained. . ~i4. 4 1 . , - , ~ Strangers were then ordered to leave the gallerys. ll '..z4o'. .:,, House divided, when there appeared— . .. „f For the motion 2lO 4.. ' ... .. ..................... , 74 ; ,lr ~, For the amendment Majority for goine into Committee.---- . 6 ~01,,,:, • - The House then went into'Committe and the • ri...,..,..i".4 agreed to—to be reported on Monday. BILL - , '''' '' , .: l -' AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS '. ,: . ..,)ot 4 . '• The Earl of MARCH objected to the funds' for t h i s $t tev.-- being taken from the county rate. He would - not 7 110 0;1A0 - oppose such a course ; and he thought that the expenr , --. ' fall upon the consolidated fund. Mr. MILES supported this view of the question• le d by , ••• Mr. FINCH thought that much more wo uld be se t he •.. the Right Hon. Gentleman taking t h e discussion 111:600 second reading of this Bill ; there were so many ol' J ,ier t he to the Bill, which he thought would by no means a° ens purpose for a hich it was intended. la c ells • Mr. HENLEY trusted that the Government woo Leo wereet as to the postponement of this measure u ntil the Men l b i t • better informed as to its nature, and the wa y iu which proposed that it should operate. The Bill was then postponed. T 1 tr e p a irzv i a e y s sZ• c sv a a s pdeaesdeceornidtatilen. day vex _ t_• d ''. , N al Prisons Bill was brought tip a' , . The report of the .. av received. , , vela' his Bill was brought up, and after se The report on t ALLo it it was agreed to s tti h e e n n p: 7 : clauses had been a , • • the moved for a r , turn howling Captain PECH . . - , s ~,e , particulars of the several disbursements constituting `"d LUNATICS' ASYLUMS BILL. t be 166/. 14s. 11d. , paid as the net proceeds o f . difference between the sums of 1,1521. 18s. 10d. an t slave vessels Jehovah and Diana, 4 , t0 the : 471 , g; Admiralty Court at the Cape of Good one, on the 121 6 " of December, 1842, and the Bth day of December, spectively, and the sums of 1,2021. 7 6 3 iand 2" 51 °6* . . . s. z ( . 2 T es being the gross proceeds of sale of those vessels resP e e d • a :. less the sums of 4761. 188. 9d. and 2731. 175., mention 7 i the return presented on the 15th day of Ar il ' 154 6 - Agreed to. t the Captain PECHELL postponed till Thursday nen ,„ e . mot on for a return of all fees payable in the several .v e ic_ s • Admiralty Courts at the Cape sif Good Hope and St. Hel n _ t ; ~ with a return of all officers and persons holdings ppoiotna7., in the said Courts, with the nature of the duty porneds then the amount of salary received by each, and, if 18 . , 4 ,9ede re of by fees, 2. annual amount received by each since the Ist Jan., 184 e ' • _, •0.• Mr. WAKLEY moved that the petition of Georg "" stop, presented April 22d, be printed with the votes. Agreed to. ehairni n or :f st meeting at Crosbymove th at etiti Hall, London, against th e Govvrei th eu the Mr. RIGHT d the pon of a s_ B educational plan, presented April 20th, be printed votes.—Agreed to. a Nil t° Sir GEORG '"-?, GREY obtained leave to bring in vs 4 , 001 amend the laws relating to the re moval of poor perso " England and Scotland. PASSENGERS' ACT. fur the introduction of a Bill to amend the Passengers - 11 ' Mr. H AWES gave notice that he would, on MondnY,': • °" _' LAW OF SETTLENIEN T. _ Diu to Sir GEORGE GREY moved for leave to bring in. amend the law of settlement. The Bill was read a first time. The House then adjourned at One o'clock. --. ------- STATE OF MR. O'CO NNELLS HEALTIL we ll as the a c- , Private letters received in London, as ,_ ar e journals, ~ counts which appear in the Continental., . , ycoar en, confirmatory of the apprehension that Air• ten`- the since his departure from Paris has not as ) any material benefit from his tour, but that, he , atber , trary, owing to the extreme severity-of the . WL . Letters is sinking under the malady which afflictsahlitte invalid 'i received within the last two days repree His . .. condition at Lyons as peculiarlydistressing. pn . y_ . .. ' h d is stated to be very much shattered, an- ,_ tinguis e , ',len is afflicted periodically with a mental depres,ion w— sical vigour, for which Mr. O'Connell was once so A dl h s t , . 7 ' .• it is painful for his friends and co.npanions to contern• The inclement weather pr e va;ling 0 1 the plate. sou th of France since the oianiiig of the re ontbt ' • fhraosm h alj d a a s r ad aii e sp ff iseac ec n t yati o ol :i di l tL i hi i ,J rn e, hoa , e.nntlern:haen. Re at l i t i b i .- 0 . : o i n n ou c r o a n b i Learned a G I the Honourable Miley, and his son, the Member Pal P al ' nira:lsntet.i exceedinglyrende red fur Dundalk, 4t Hotel l'Univers in Lyons, a few days,since the Catholics _ e „ ye , ~ of the city assembled in l th e trying! progress r e f s i 191 4 - - arge numbers, and r st. • B ea - upon presenting him with an address, expressive of t le -,._ admiration and condolence, thus following the ota l q u p of the Catholic party i n P ar i s , w h ose address, draw by the eloquent pen of the Comte de Montalenabert, and already obtained publicity in almost every French e ' v ' er , -, British newspaper. The Lyonese deputation, ho o ri t. .... were denied the gratification they had promised. to _ o u r e ; selves; for, in reply to a personal applicaAtior. Laniaei interview, they received a letter fron t h ., f a ther :`-,'•- O'Connell, jum, expressive of his regret that 1 bleed was in such a state of health as to be wholly h i audndress give them an audience. The letter, tvitiu - --s the to the head of the deputation, and bears date April, is as follows: to Yt dl • so " Sir,—l am directed by my father t o expr _ ined t he his deep regret, that his physicians having cur the 0 •,, ' strictest repose, it will be out of his po wer to s , . audience to the Catholic deputation of .Lyons-t "Your faithful and obliged serv,a,.% . jun. - • " DANIEL O'CONN r-Ll-4 ' ..: 1 " Hotel de l'Univers." ~ r ota - • Doctors Bonnet and Voricel, the two firs t o , Coo' men in Lyons, were in daily attendance on D's- r ' e letter s , net during his sojourn in the city. The s i t e : 0 00 0 ; which convey this intelligence, give a deplortu' oe , 0' of the state of the weather in the south of Fr an i:o 4o3'l attribute to it the aggravation of the patriot's no , and • The rain has been incessant, and the cold in to a lmost the Rhine is represented as being swollen to °, rills. unprecedented degree, and inundated whale hone) Talking of Mr. O'Connell, a Lyons paper ( La ant, or observes, " The illustrious invalid never s tirs ° arsons does he receive visitors. Many of the highest P e b e en in Lyons have called at his hotel, but they r i „ v i , who • ;- invairiably received by his son." The phYsic t !'"i; Irish '''-, • held a consultation as to the advisability of tiL e tr entit patient continuing the journey in his state of es un til ... ' weakness, recommended further sojourn at Wu • the weather becomes more genial. ___.—...• "; ' the On the 18th inst., at M il ifi ß so T n H e S tie Ingatestone , E"* l ' lady of Captain Jesse, of a son. J. On n n a mt t h h i ei e t 02 1 11 9 0 t t }h h , rnssy inst.,inst., Forsyth, cf Great Malvern,r ds e oo a gn t a. : pl ce, the de C. de Crespigny Bart , of a son and heir. , f loat On the 20th inst., at Idaida-vale, the lady 01 Brandon, Esq., of a son. On the '2lst inst., the wife of Joseph Bullock, Lambeth, of a son. build' ings. Finsbury-circus, of a daughter. On the 21st inst., Mrs. Sampson Samtetheell:oyfif::o.ofSrirtthliCe- Esq., of South MARRIED. -la, :' :' • FOn the 22d inst., at St. Mary's, Islington, Charles TA3 . a. t ' , s(l., of the Clapham-road, to Maria, widow of the late C. ir' t l• Judge, Esq., of Liverpool. ... , ' 4 ... • DIED. On the 21st inst., at East Farlei 11 Vicarage , Anne, relict of the late William Wilberforce,g Esq., ISL 'lep i• ‘ On the 2241 of January, on board the ship Welles 1 , Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel Robert Codringtoo, 49th Bengal '.• Native Infantry, Assistant Quartermaster-General, aged 4 On the 7th inst., at Naples, Edward, Lord liokeby. ~,, On the 12th inst., near Dublin, John Ord Owen, Jr-Dn'' .'. youngest son of the ate Rev. Johnwen,ofFulhatiPs.; '0 ~., tl9 , I London: Printed and Published by 14fUltDO YOUNG , 0 . - i ;;; c hic , Strand, Printer, at The Bun Office N 0.112 Strand , in th e a ;:„li - Or • - of tho Savoy, ill the County of Jaiddlea4, satu.rdiart .r" . . 1347. Bair,bars ' :1 ,