The Sun. — London, England, 1806-02-26 00:00:00

IMPERIAL 'PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS. TUESDAY, FEE. 25'. • The Earl of EGLINTOUN was introduced' by, the Earrof - MonA and Loild:Kttn;dnd toolt . the Oaths and his Seat as.Baron.AtkoßossAN. . . pAr priyate.l3llis were brought up from the Cornrhon,s, and read a first time.—,-Adjourned till' to-morrow. - . _ HOUSE OF COMMONS. TUESDAY, FEB. '25. Mr. EYRE presented'a Petition from the Insolvent Debtors in the gaol of Nottingham. Laid on the Table. _ _ _ •Mr. Grey, Sir Charles Pole, Mr. Pigott, and Mr. H. Addington, took the Oaths and their Seats. Mr. EYRE. presented a Petition from the Maltsters in the Counties of Nottingham and Lincoln, corn plaining of certain restrictions and penalties con tained in an A6t of 42 Geo. 111. Laid on the Table. _ . Mr. WHITBREAD mowed, that Mr. Grey and the ..A.ttorney General be added to the Committee for preparing Articles of Impeachment against Lord Mr. Johnson, from the Office of the Chief Secre tary in Ireland, presented Returns of Residences from the Dioceses of Ossory and Kilniore, in Ireland. — Ordered to be printed. • Dr. - PUMENAN presented a Bill for enfoicing the Residence of the Clergy in Ireland. React a first time, and ordered to be read a second time this day fintnight. • Mr. HAWORTH, from the Exchequer, brought up Accounts of the Permanent and' War Taxes, froth Jan. 1805 to kin. 1806. Sir PHILIP STEVE N S gave notice of the Annual, Marine Mutiny The SECRETARY at WAR gave notice of his inten tion to InoVe for aßi to Indemnify thoe concerned in introducincr, Foreign Troops. The number of Hanoterian,d'ecruits being above what was formerly permitted by Parliament,_ the Bill, therefore, became necessary... • INDIA AFFAIRS. Air. FRA.NCIS stated, that he rose with a very 'strong impression on his mind of the vast import ance of every thing which concerned that depart- Ment of our • public: affairs which related to India. In What he had then to offer to the House he must inform them, that there were tot only subjeds . of considerable importance, but also of tome curio sity. He lamented much, that the great import ance of our Indian inlet ests had hardly ever been sufficient to produce a tolerably 'full attendance of ligerribers on a day that. they were to be discussed ; and; for his part, nothing but a' strong sense of duty could induce him so often to recur to a topic about • w'bich he saw that so much indifference prevailed. lelieCothl command a revolUtion in the.opinionS of that House, it. would really give hini pleasure to find him Self, by their vote, prevented from again re ungrateful and fitthankfin office of calling their attention to the situation of India ;. but - froni his experience and long service, lie had ac (aired , such a knoWdedge of the affairs of that part of the Empire, that he could not be discouraged by the coldness and languor that he always met :with in . that_House, from pressing upon their at tention the lamentable situation of the affairs of the East India Company. He did not mean then ; to speak of its political situation as to War or Peace, but of its financial situation, which was. growing -every day more formidable to this Country. The .first observation be should make on. this subjea .was, that it appeared to him a most extraordinary and unprecedented thing, that no Indian Budget was presented to Parliament in . the course of the last year. The way in which the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) who was then at the head of the Board of Controtil chose to, account for this most extraordinary omission, was by stating, ei ther that the accounts had not ; been sent home from India ; or else, that they were intercepted by the French. Although this excuse appear ed, at that time, to satisfy the House, Yet be must declare, that a time was fast approaching , when the financial embarrassments of India would tome home to the Finances of this Country ; and therefore it was incumbent upon the House to examine the statement of the Noble Lord. If the accounts had - not been sent home from India, that• omission was a positive breach of the Aa of Parliament, and was a high crime and misdeMermour.- If, on the other hand, tliose accounts were,intercepted by the . enemy, he ,should ask how they came to be inter cepted ? When he was in the Government of India, such a circumstance coUld not well have happen ed ; . for then there were poSitive instrudions,given to the Captains of Vessels, ,that all tfie official papers should be ready to be thrown overboard or sunk when a VessA was in immediate danger of falling into the hands of an Enemy. If this instruc tion was not now given, the omission was, in his judgment, a liigh crime and misdemeanour; if it had been given, the should wish to know whether there 11 Kl ; been any inquiry into the condo6t of that Officer who had let those papers fall into the-hands of the Enemy ? _He considered that it was an offence of thernNt dangerous nature 'to suffer those Papers to fall into the hands of Bonaparte; and in point of ft6t, all- the information that we had of the conduft of out-Government in India, ,for the last year, was (terived ft-cm the translations which appealed in the. Newspapers of what- had been extracted trnm the Freiieh No:lite:Jr. Such had, however, been the in ciitrerence'with which the ax airs of India had been. treated, that about, a year ago neither he nor the Noble Lord at the other side'of the House (Lord Castlereagli had interest to procure. the attendance of wore than about fifteen or twenty, Members, although the ,lit:cassion,‘Vas to be upon the annual Budget of a Country that had-a revenue of at least fifteen million.;. (M r. Francis . then read, as part of his Speech, a long extra& from a Speech which he had made last year, with respea to a Loan of 350,0001. said to have been made by the Presidency of Bom- . bay to a Prince in. the distrift of the Guzerat, who ;is called the Gwicawzr.) Since that time he had .cnde,avoured to obtain . information about this Loan; hilt could not get a single: ray of light from any quarter. It was well known that all - the Presi:- gencia o flndia were in geat distress for si'ant of money ; but of all the Presidencies, Bombay was the thevery poorest. It was'therefore improbable upon :the, face ;' of it, that they Should haste lent such a large sum of money to the Gwicaviar, who was bounU by a Treaty to give them money, in, order to pay the subsidiary force' which was kept' up in his Dominions. In the Report of the Presidency of. Bouibay,.it was stated that this Prince, was a man of extremely weak inteileets, and that the Company, were therefore' bound to 'Support his interests, and even paid his body guard. Was it probable that they would lend 350,0001. to such a man ?. It was his- opinion that the Gwicawar ,never received a shilling of that money; and he .thought this was a matter of so much consequence to ascertain, that I?e' should subipit to the House a motion 'for the purpose of obtaining such information. He con cluded by moving " That there be laid before the House extracts of any Letters or Accounts from the Presidency of. Bombay, respelling a sum of mo ney inserted in their accounts of disbUrsements for the year 1803, and said- to be advanced by way of Loan to the Gwicawar." _ _ _ Mr: HILEY .ADDIATGTON observed, that he had pot taken his seat when the Honourable Gen tle Man yesterday gave notice •of his Motion. He therefore had not then a right to observe that the Hon. Member had not sufficiently stated in his no tice the obje& of the Motion he intended to make. As to the Papers respeilting Indian affairs, they were usually so voluminous, as the Noble Lord at the other side of the House (Lord Castlereagh) well knew, that it was difficult to pronounce immediately What Papers could with safety and propriety be pro duced. Under these circumstances, he could not possiblyibe prepared to form an opinion ; he did not wish the Hon. Member to.suppose that he had • any obje&ions to the produaion of the Paper demanded, - but submitted, it to his consideration • whether it would not be better to withdraw his-Motion for a day or two, in order to give Memberg time to con sider the subje&, and to make up their minds re speaing the propriety of producing the Paper whiCh was-the subject of his Motion. Lard CASTLEREAGH said, that there was no Member of that) I-louse more fully convinced than he Was of the zeal and anxiety with which the Hen. Member (Mr. Francis) applied his mind to the Affairs of India, nor did any one lament more the ditlicUlty of 'prOcuring such an attendance of Members' as could be wished, when the annual statements were.made of the situation of that im portant part of our Empire. He must deny, how ever, that it was an unprecedented thing, that a year should pass over without . an Indian Budget being presented to ,the HOuse. He perfeCtly recol leaed, that the first year he .was. President of the Board . of Controul, he presented the Budgets of two years, and that this was owing to circumstances very similar to those - of the present-case.- He- felt no apprehension from the produetion of the Papers Moved for, and he' trusted, upon :exainination, would be found that,there had been unift.of money to the Gwicawar, brit a loan advanced on the secu rity of landed assignments. The Hon. Gentleman seemed surprised that there were few • or no Direc tors present in- the House: This circumstance would be easily accounted for when he stated, that there was a General Court of Direalors held this day, and that many of those Directors: who were Mem bers of Parliament were consequently attending their duty in another place. ~ • After' a few words from Lord Morpeth, Mr. -FRANCIS, agreed to withdraw his Motion for' the present,. but wished .to Inow when' the Accounts would be ready to be brought fur ward. - Lord MORPETTT replied, that he should be _ready to move for the Accounts on Thursday next, but he could not state positively what time it might take to prepare theM. Mr. GRANT said, that he had no obje6lion to the produaion of any Document that might be re ,quired, but whether it would be consonant to the general interests of the Company that those Papers . should be produced, .would be another consideration. The Motion of Mr. Fititccis was then, with the, leave of the House, withdrawn. • , Mr. P.,-lULL then rose to make a . Motion, of which he had given notice on a former night. He begged leave to recall to the recolle&ion of the House, . how often they had been told of the affairs of India . being prosperous, happy, and flourishing; how even they had been congratulated by Lord Melville on the confidence they she\ved in the security' of India, by the little attention that was paid to the annual ac counts which were presented them of the situation Of that country, and its finances. He could not join in that congratulation: on the contrary, he thought that the blind confidence of the House in the statements which were presented them, contributed more to place the country in danger; than.even that hostile flotilla which threatened to invade its shores. In this persuasion, be had given notice of Motions for information, on which - he meant to ground an accusation against Marquis. Wellesley, the late GO vernor-General. :When he heard of the death of the much-lamented Lord Cornwallis, it appeared to him that the Sun .of Great Britain was for - ever set. in India,,and he wished for the appointment of a Sele& Committee, to consider generally the affitirs of India. If there-appeared to be any delay in. his bringing forward his Motions, that delay ought not to be imputed to him, but to the state of the coun try, and of the times and men - ; particularly to the state of that House. At present he had no less than six questions to ask, to which he expeAed to receive as many negatives.: He could not help stating it as something very extraordinary, that Lord Melville • (against whom Articles of Impeachment are now depending), in the year 1793, browcht in a Bill, vfhich passed into a Law, 'for - the entire regulation of the afiliirs of the Compa . py. This Bill was to .operate upon a population of not less than forty mil lions of people, and upon a property of no less than two hundred and thirty millions. This Bill of Lord • Melville's had been violated in all its points. This Bill enjoined that,: of the surplus of the Revenue, a million annually should be set apart for commercial• services; mid shilling of which, however,, had been so applied since the year 1798. At the time that the Bill was passed, although the Debt did not much exceed seven millions, this Debt was conceived .so formidable, that it was resolved to reduce it to two millions, and, for this purpose, the Ad required, that half a million a year should be applied to the reduEtion of the Debt. Not a shilling, however, had ever beets applied to the liquidation of the 'Debt, whi . eh,:had since increased to a 'MOO formidable amount". _..After thre.appropriat ions sho , old be made, then, the 'Alt allowed a dividend of 10 per cent. to the PrOpiietors,,, It now happened, fiat this was the-only.part of the Law which was not..violated, and it was precisely that part of it•wliich would be, more honoured in the breach than i a the observ ance." As to the investments which were to be Made from Colonial - produce be imported, there had been no such thing.' - After the appropriations which he had already stated, the East India Corn-_.. pany had bargained with the .public, as a small equivalent for their exclusive commerce, that they would pay a sum of 500,0001. 'annually. Of this sum not a shilling bad been paid. There remained now due to the Public, - On that account,' seven mil liops, which, with: the accumulation of the in terest, would have redeemed for the Nation no less than thirty-five millions of the National Debt. It was also , expressly ena&ed in that law, that after the liquidation .of the debt there should be an appropriation of half a million annually, to form a guarantee fund. Nothing has yet beeh done to establish such a fund. There was another Clause in the ACt for obliging the GoVernor to present annUal. Accounts, and to state the diffi culties, if any occurred, in complying with the several appropriations mentioned ; but now, in the thirteenth year of the existence 'of the ACI, no such Accounts had been -presented.-- It would, therefore, appear, that every part of this Law had . been violated. -He. declared, that in coming forward to state those violations of .the Law, he was' induced by no other consideration but a sense of the duty he owed his Country. He had no .object to gain, and he 0641 e~isily per= ceive, that he exposed himself to _much obloquy. The Debt of India, however, had now increased to such an enormous height, that it was time to look the evil in the face, and consider the causes"which had produced such a disastrous result. The Debts of the Company were thirty millions in India, twelve millions at hOme, besides the Seven millions that he contended they were indebted to the Public as the price of their Charter. He concluded by moving the first of his Resolutions, which was, " For - an Account of the amount -of the Bills of Exchange drawn upon India, in consequence of the Aal Of the -33d of His Majesty." Lord CASTLEREAGH hoped the HOuse would excuse him, if having been trusted with an import-, ant office in the Administration of India, he -felt that he could not sit silent after . the,. observations which bad been made by the Hon. IVlemSer who spoke last. It appeared to hirn_ that the Hon. Gentleman had either misconceived -- the luded to, or else that he must have -read h..very hastily, as 'he had blended together the territorial and the commercial revenues, should be con-, sidcred as distin& things. , As to the sending of bul lion to India in payment for its Colonial produce, whatever prejudice there might once have existed against exporting bullion, in modern times it is only considered as a commercial medium-, which may be exported without danger in its conseqtiences. The Hon. .Gentleman had blended together many. other considerations, which plight to have beeti kept distina. He had not distinguished the debt and the assets abroad or at hoMe, nor `taken .notice of that intermediate measure, the - arrangernent -for the transfer part of the Indian Debt to this Coun try. As to the A& of Appropriation, - the only way that the House did, or - could in common sense have ordered the appropriation 'was, that in case of a surplus there should be set apart in the first place a sum for the Military Expellees, in the-next place for the Civil and Commercial Affairs, and then that the remainder should come over _in invest ments. The Honourable Gentleman .was much Mistaken if he -thought that a single ena&ment would be sufficient to allow tlw,,Country to parti cipate to the amount of the half million stated : — Unless there were a surplus for such sum to come Out, it would be impossible that- k should-be -}paid. When there WaS no surplus it was also impossi ble that annual accounts. should he laid' befofe - the House of an appropriation of 'a surplus. The Ho nourable Gentleman seemed to be in a mistake throughout -the whole of his speech, in only con sidering the surplus . _ of territorial revenue, instead • of the net proceeds arisinrfro — m" the commercial transadtions of the East India COmpany- combined with their territorial re - venue. The guatinitee Fund which he mentioned was,only toH,be created after the Debt should be reduced to two millions: In the present state Of the' Finances of the East India I Company, it must. be recollected, that the last two or three,yeAr r and since the - commencement of. the Mahratta War, .have been times of the, severest pressure. Up' to the month of April, 1803, he had frequently stated to the House, that the finan cial situation of India was a situation of great prels perity and affluence, and which justified the ex peaation which had been so long entertained of this Country participating in the prosperity of - the Com pany. He should not speak either of what might be the financial pressure at the present moment, .nor of the means that the Company •had orsUrniotint ing this pressure—hut he thought it would . be im possible for Gentlemen to limn a right judgment of the- present state of Indian affairs until the Ac counts, of the years 1803 and 1804 were befOre the Honse. He concluded by asserting, that if-it had' not been that the subsequent expenses of the War had disturbed unexpectedly the prosperity which ,prevailed in 1803, the statements be had made would have been realized. Mr. FULLER, after a few observations on the loss of :Marquis Coinwallis, spoke' of the neces sity of provided for his brother, Admiral Corn wallis. Lord FOLKSTONE contended, that there had been no misconception of the Act by the Honour able Mover, but that the law had been, as 'he:stated, violated in all its material points. Mr. FRANCIS replied tc' Lord Castlereagh : he appealed to.the Dire6tors then presefit, whether the Company was'allowed to manage even its commer cial concerns in the manner most to its advantage. As to its territorial power, that was a mere name, which he had many years ago advised them to re pounce altogether. The only part-of the East where their trade was profitable was in China, where the natives would not allow. them to' obtain any ter ritorial possessions: He thought the Mahratta .war NO4 a very line topic for the Noble Lord , (Lord Castlereagh) to' alledgk! As an excuse for the-failure' of promise's. , Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that in 1805 there had been actually a surplus of above eleven hundred thousand pounds, and the nation would have participated, if it had not been that, in the beginning of the War in Europe, a duty had been laid on tea to such an amount, that the Company suffered a loss in that article of above half a mil- lion. (His Lordship was replying to different parts of Mr. Francis's'Skech,,but the Sixixiß informed him, that he must confine hilisiseir to explanation, having already spoken.) Mr. GRANT spoke at considerable length, in answer .to the .statements of Mr. Paull and Mr. Francis, but in so slow a tone as scarcely to be in- telligible from the Gallery. He supported, the ar gument,of Lord Castlereagh, respeEting the reasons. why no part of the sum annually payable to the' public towards the discharge of the Company's debt, out of the surplus on each year's profit, ,had been brought to account, as no such surphis had aaually occurred in any one year since, owing to the: almost uninterrupted continuance of expensive . Wars. With respia to the purchase of -goods in India for homeward investments, for cash or bullion, instead of other commodities, he denied it either to be so very disadvantageous, or so opposite to the principles of our commercial , interests, as was con tended by the Hon. Gentleman. It was found, by immemorial experience, that none,even of the 'an cients were enabled to carry on a : trade with India 'for its commodities, in exchange for the manufac tures or. produce of Europe. , The truth was,. we could riot induce .the natives of those Countries to the same predileaion for our commodities that we had for their's.' If, therefore, we must have Indian commodities, the best mode of • procuring them Would be in exchange for that only which could Obtain them upon advantageous terms. Tt was found, by long experience, that they could be ob tained upon such terms for . bullion only ; and that to attempt it by investments in any 'other commo dities would be attended with 'losses subversive of the trade altogether ; and as to bullion, it was not !the produce..ot the Country, but obtained from other Nations in exchange for . our commodities. He de- - nied that our commerce with Bengal was anni hilated, as Was asserted, though for a few years back , it-Wasarried on mther upon a reduced scale ; and he deprecated the manner in which this enquiry was urged for Ward, as calculated to excite the most mischievous and "unfounded alarms in the public i mind, in relation to the Company's affairs at home, as well as to paralyze• the Government in., India ; I . and he called upon His Majesty's Ministers, whO had a heavy. responsibility - in the affairs of India, to be Untioas , how they san&ioned -the principles 1 that-bad been held forth this'night in respe& to that Government, or sutler an idea to go forth, that they II had an intention to change the Constitution of that IGovernment. -' . , Mr. Secretary FOX said, he did not consider his Hon. Friend (Mr. Francis). to have suggested any wish for altering the constitution of India as by law established.. Within the short time that he had sat ,- on that bench, he had been once: before called upon to answer a Esimilar suggestion, respeding his own viewslowardfesCinding the Measure of Union with Ireland-; and though he had warmly opposed that measure, and had no hesitation in saying it was one he nitver.liked.; - and though he Originally_ disliked the-constitution of India as now established, and Ltd not yet changed - his own opinion upon that subjea; :i yet, upon t - one - measure. as upon the other, however contrary to his own . opinion, it was yet very material: to...consider _whether it was not better to continue both, as now by. law established,. than risk the couSe4uences that might result from. innovation. With respect to' the propoSition for formik:a Sole& Committee to inquire into Indian Affairs, he . heard no such 'proposition before men tioned; but he could have no obje&ion to the pyo thadion of the Accounts moved for, in onlent,liat the House .might be enabled to form a clear opinion on the subjed, for it* appeared 'to him that Much lAs . danger td the affairs of the Company was likely to,accrue from a'fair and candid statement of their situation, than from a system of mystery and con ce-arnefit-Tftich-appeared to - be the source, in a ytrx. grckt. deuce, m t: their present, embarrassments and this was a policy the re&itude of which he be lieved was obvious to the experience of the House in ,many Other cases besides . those of the India Com pany. One of two things must, in the present state of the company's affairs, be obvious : either they,inust hate been grossly and criminally negli gent?in-never haviug paid within tell years any part Of the debt which they were bound by law to have paid in yearly instalments ; or the House must have been. deluded by a fallacious statement of their al- air; on passing : that Statute. The statement made by,theNobie Lord 'opposite to hun this night, that iii 15On' the affairs of the Company were affitient, progy.-,rou3, and 'abundant, rendered this myspry -still , more extraordinary. He had, frequentl?-beard explanation called for on the subject, but .none ,fadory ever given:, He, therefore, could see no oh je6tion to the produdion of the Documents moved. fin. But with regard to his Hon. Friend (Mr. Francis), he felt it a just tribute to his merit to say, that in respe& to the Affiirs of India it did not ap pear to him there was any man more competent to the subject. Mr. GRANT explained. f . Sir THEOPHILUS AIETC4LFE said, the de falcation of the Company had arisen entirely, not so much from any failure in their own resources, as from' the enormous rise on the tea duties in the last War—from to 95 per cent.—which prevented the accumulation of a surplus of five millions, which was greatly more than adequate to have paid the wholeof their debt, and which had adually brought above twelve millions into the Treasury. . Alderman PRINSEP was foi going candidly into .an,lnquiry into the State of the Company's Affairs. Sir HUGH INGLIS thOught it wholly unneces sary to trouble Parliament with going into any such Inquiry, inasmuch as it was in the power of His Majesty's Ministers, if they chose, to order before them the Minutes of all Proceeding's on Ibdia Af- fairs in possession 'of the Board of Controul, which would give them every information that could be de sired upon the subject, and 'would be infinitely less liable to excite alarm in the public mind, or produce injury to the Company's affairs, than by a formal and public investivtion by Parliament. JOHAS'ON thought the discussion in the present instance extremely premature; fir,t, because was pressing on the attention of His Majesty's