The Sun. — London, England, 1806-04-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLiAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS. MONDAY, APRIL 14. The Irish Militia .Senrice Bill passed through a , Committee, and was reported. In the ;appeal " the CounteSs Dowager ,of Lin -coin and .others v.. the Duke of Newcalitle and Others," Lord Er...r..pOsoltouGtr, Lord ELDON, and ,the LORD CHANCRL:LOR respealvely - delivered their opinioris; - after which the further consideration was postpOned ThOtsclay, in_ &der to give, 'tune for proof of the Alice of Nit*castle being df age. Mr, ,Balcl,:v_iri, Graham;- Duigenan, Mr. Johni t tboe',...and several other Members of the Hodse of Commons,-brought up the Irish First Fruits Bill, the Irish Treasury Bills Bill, the British Fisheries Encouragement Bill, ,alkd four Private Bills ; which were severally read 3 :first time. • AMRICAN INTERCOURSE LULL_ Lard AircKLkND•gave notice ; that he-should move thg'sCond reading of'the American , Intercourse Bill on.:Khursday.—His ,Lordship moved to summon the Lords for Thursday, hilt withdrew the motion on its bein&piderstood that the discussion 'is to take place in the committee. IMPEACkI:MENT.oF .LORD MET.VILLE. • • GRENin,i,E,morccl, that the Committee ap pointtd to search the Journals for Precedents. of Pro ceedings ih uses of Impeachment, be instrucled to consider of thb list mode of proceeding on the Trial of Loiii Yli,Count Melville, and do report thereon.--- Ordfzed.—Adjourned'till to-morrow (this day). HOUSE QE COJIMONS. \ - _ `'_ '~' --~- MONDAY,, APRIL, 14. 71r. CALCRAFT prdsented an Account from' the Office of the Paymaster-General of the Forces, " of the Sums which remained in the Exchequer upon' thejsi of . January; 1805, being part of the. Grants of ,parliament for the .service of the year 1804, ap plicable to Army Service 4," And alsti":the Amount of the Balance in the hands of the Paymaster-Gene ral of the Forces on the la, of 'January, 1805. - - / Ordered to lie on the 'l able,. and to 15e priyed. Oa the Moon of Mr. CALCRAFT a new Writ 'was dire&ed to be issued for the EleCtion of a Mem ber for Helston, in Cornwall, in the room of navies - .Giddy, Esq. who has ~accepted, the Ste Wardship of \.the Chi:tein Hundreds. NABOB OF ARCOT's CREDITORS. HOBuousE moved the Order of the Day. for -'the consideration of the Report of the 'Committee on the Petition respeaing the Creditors of the Na bob of Arcot.- This being agreed to; Mr. HOBHO VS.& observed, that before he pro • seeded to move for a Bill on this 'sub:tea, he hoped the House would allow him the liberty to state the . :grounds on which this application was made: Indian sub; : ea; were in general of- a very complicated na ture, -and often, did not command that attention . Which their importance deserved and, he was therefore obliged to an Hon. Member (meaning Mr. Francis; we believe) at present absent on ac count of a domestic misfortune, who. had endea voured to rouse the attention of the House to this and -, other pointi conneEted N:vith India. , ThiS was not only Important, but extensive also; and'he should be under ' the necessity of-trespassing longeron theattentiou of the House than:he could have wished. It was Ile , c.i2.ssary for him - to advert to the Aa of 1784, on the subject of these Debts; but he would do it as shortly possible;as and ifle should fall into any error, there ; were Gentlemen present who would be able to correEt Aet Was passed in the.2.:lth of the King for appointing aCourt 'of judicature to try offences, and for the be.l - ter management of several affairs Con . ne6ted with 'lndia. By the 27th clause, the only one conneaedwith this subjea, • it waienaeted that ;the Court of Direaors should cons:der certain de ' - rnands of ipriVate individuals on the NabOb of •Ar cor.-;. 'that they should give such orders as the case might require, and, in concert with the i',Thbob, tablish fluids for liquidating such demands as / should be found tobe lawful and psi. What was done in consequence ? The At ..- was - - sent tc; Madras,' and • there promulgated' in February, 1785; and -it was ' slip elated that the - Nabob , should pay four lacks of pagodas as .Subsidy to the Company, and, twelve Jacks .of. pagodas as a fund - for paying the debts to the Conapany and to individuals. The private ere , ditors were divided into three cies*, whoseclahns,, ..originating - at three different periods, athounted in - all to about 2,794,0001. These debts were all re : gisfered. Fie Would not state wltat ,proportion. of the 'tWelve -lacks of pagodas went to -pay theCorn paiiy and' what . t r ,O pay the private creditor, as this woCtld.lead, WM into too much detail. In February, 1787; a new Treaty was made with the Nabob, by • which he agreed-to pay the. Company nine lacks of pagodavas a Military,Subsidy,in time of Peace, .itio 4 -5 th.:: of leis his revenue in time of- War; but the were - still: Continued to disfharge thtr ni•iv:,,te - and publin ckb6. 'But this was so ill T. la • kB,, remained' due in the , :‘a attack having been made t..- Allies whom - they were th.-'y called for the.4-sths of the so irre g ularly paid - that ,Lord wider the necessity-of taking the . the supplies into his own hands., pro Zit 179:: 'another Treaty was made, by !,, 1 - 4.;boh ogreed to pay nine lacks as a ?NE 14`jf iimskiy to the Company ; but,-I,ord Corn cntvinc,ed that the Revenue of the Car oot equaltO the supplyialthe twelve. lacks, Jed lacks should be paid for the benefit ci' the 1-nvate -creditors, leaving the debt. to -the C , Rtifpany rOr future consideration. 'The last Treaty, t.L.:LQII last in point - of time, the first in importance, ) 14' the Carritic was,formally vested iii the. Company, and_ the; six- lacks ordered to be continued till the private debts were discharged.- - r. 1.0 consequence of the Act and of these . Treaties • were, that the. Revenue of the Carnatic - . came into tou.liands of, the Company, - and flourished. therein vela 'a mannet, that in 1804,. the regiStered debts :k.\, , i4 - 0,411 liquidated: But the Company found' that • there.wereother dem ..ids upon this Revenue, which - tory forbad to -be countenanced , till a special eya • •mi4.,..tiop,shOuld.take place, anti a report'he made to •• ,of inquiry consequently sat g0r15,.3,4,11.1-liprts were maLl9 to the Dir.edors; tt th© moWe4icient examination of these r ae*llds, and oth::4i that: a•piiiitation' was sow Made to the House. He should have stated here, that the Company had liquidated some of these debts, but that there were .mani ,- *liich they could neither immediately reject nor assent to,' and 'there fore'they resolved to .set aside three laCks of pagodas, with interest, .for the payment of, such as should be found -due. The Company had aced in the nate4 honourable manner in this affair, and had afforded an-equal chance to the Native and 'British. Creditor. The Company were clearly answerable . for these debts upon the principle acknowledged in the Aa of 1784, and in that of the eed of the King, and must therefore enter nixie someterms for their tion. But on what conlitions ? • Why, whatever might be the difference of opinion respedting the propriety of seizing the revenues of the Cernatie, all must allow that those who had .thein ought to be answerable forthe debts upon them, as long as these revenues were equal to the just demands upon, them. The revenus were more than equal to this, as, in 1503-4, the excess above the nine lacks Was up wards of eOO,OOOl. and the surplus now was about 400,0001. As to the seizure of the revenue by the Cempany, he read an Extrael- et a Letter.. from Marquis Cornwallis, sheaving 'that, in his ()Pinion, that Nvas a proper and necessary measure. The next thing was, to state the Plan Which had been adopted for,finding - out who were the bonalide Creditors. — Three Commissioners had been appointed in Eng land, who were to • examine' every one of these . debts, and the parties were to be bound by their decision. Three other Commissioners were ap pointed in India to examine i into the! Claim's: there, and repert to the Commissioeeis acheate, 'who were to have the final . determinatibn of the . busi ness. No adjudication had been made under this Commission . , and the, cense, would explain the ob joe: of the present application. -The Commissioners kid been ordered to tbr the ve/untary Oaths'of Witnesses ; and there :was a Clanse in the Ahkern powering the Parties to'apply : to Parliament in case the powers vested in the ; Commissioners shOuld by found insufficient. The Commiasioners, : consider-, ing the high legal authority against volentery , Oaths, recommended 'to the Parties to apply to . the Lew; Officers.of the Crpwn to knoWewhether, iu their: opinion, 'such Oaths__ ought to be taken . , when there was to legal power to administer them. They hall given it as their e opinion, that great doubt existed trporethis point, and that it would scarcely be safe for the CoMmissioners, to proceed upon such, Oaths. The CoMmisSioners.,:therefore, resOl-ed to Make no adjudication, seed, in justice, to themselves- and the Parties, they were compelled to say, that the powers vested , them were insufficient. The' main objet ofthe Bill for which he would move Was to _enable the Commissioners to administerOathst, and .to subjea perjury, in, this case, to the usual penalties. They - did not wish for the_same powers as the Public Parliamentary Commissions, .bet left the punishment of disobedience, &c. to the ordinary, course of law. He hoped that the decision of the House would be speedy, and concluded apolo gizing for himself in _taking this business upon him, ekhenhe was himself one of the Commissioners, but he - had been in 'some measure forced to it by the entreaties of the Ite-ties. He moved for leave .to bring in a Bill to enable the Commissioners for examining the Claims of the Creditors of the Nabob of Arcot the 'better to carry the Agreement between these Creditors and the Comeanyieto effect. Mr. IV KEENE, without objeaing to the mea sure /altogether; could not help - considering this money as no small encroechmeneon what was due to the Public, which had sUpplied the Company this year with. one. million sterling. , He would after wards deliver his 'sentiments more' at length on the Subjeet,' aiid . point out some material Documents, Leave was then given. Mr. JARVIS xose to move for leave to bring in a 'Bill relative to the . Extension of the : Powers, of -the Admiralty Courts in trying Ode-nees! committed at a distance on the Sea. Great inconveniency hdd arisen from the circumstance that personseaccused of murder, said to be committed at a distance on the Seas, could not' be tried abroad, &cording to the forms of the' English Law. A Special Commission for trying offences abroalhad been issued .by King William ; but this did not' eeteed te murders.. He therefore Moved for leeVe ,to bring in a Bill autho rizing His Majesty to appoint Commissioners for the more speedy trial of offences committed at a distance on the Seas, according to the forms of the 'Comuton Law.—Leave granted. . Mr. PERCMIL, in, pursuance of his notice, rose for leave to bring' in a Bill for making a better pro vision foe Beeident Curates. The Bill eveuld be' the same as that which had received the sanction ef this House last year.; and though the Noble Lord op pasite (Porchester) had then opposed it, he hoped he would have no objeaion to its being brought in. Lord PORCHESTER obje&ed to it on the grounds that it proceeded upon. tho: improper prin-. ciple of paying the labourer, not according to the service performed, but according to the value of the property for which lie laboured. He also obje6ted to its being :brought forward while a Cothmittee of the House was sitting on the examination of, the rettrns of the Bishops repe6 - ting the resi&nee of the Clergy., Secretary FOX would not oppose the intro ddtion of this Bill—but at the same time concurred With the 'NOble Lord behind him, that the 'pro 'vision ought certainly to proceed upon the prin eiPle of the value of the service.—Leave was then (riven. Sir JOHN Ni WPORT moved for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the packing of butter in Ireland for sale or exportation.—Leave given. • • Mr r PAULL thought . that an Hon. Direelor (HuddleAone), not now in his p'ace, would have moved for the Paper about-which he had given 'no tice, before he (Mr. Paull) brought forward his charge. rgaitist Marquis Wellesley ; but now, how ever, he underitood thal he had abandoned it. He would, therefore, move on Friday for certain Papers, to laY the groUnds of his charge against Lord•Wel;'- losley 5 tasci for Papers for an additional charge re-. speaing Furriackabad ; cad, that it might not be said that be dale by a sidd Mind on the House, h move' for a Paper which would, lay the grounds fOr a charge of diiea disobedience the . Ndbie:Wrouii. • „ CURD-ST. VIN.CENT. . .1.1A10:14.4,11 d observed, that it was is agreeabi to hirn -- to he trespassing on the attvatica of the so` often ou this f.ubjea ; but \ ~..,........... „,, .'~ _ charge of causing unnecessary,. _delay, which .had been "urged a:;:tinst him, forced him to it. He Would haVe come sooner tti'the — Mouse upon this 3ubjea,:bad he Ittiown that the Patiirs for which he snoVed had not been 'produkd; ; .buiit. would be re colleded, that th.. - other. Paper ballot been printed till -Saturday before last, and it was then only that he discovered that these Papers were not. produced. The Papers _were a.. List Of the Ships of the J,iue built by contraCt since 1783, specifying the time and the sums expended on them -;- a statement of the improper workmanship in the..4ja,t, and anegier. Ship, with the repairs necessary for them a sche dule of the prices in the'Merchint Yards, and in' Deptford Yard : and statement of the price at 3.lt'Thih a . 74-gun Ship could be built at Dep-tford :yAd in 1804.--Another thin (which he -Moved 'for was, a Book. called' Doomsday, Book„ where the Ships- built and the . ' repairs_ were entered. This, however, he was willing to wave, that he.riiight,not _ _ be-aecus'd.d of . ,wishingco `4elay the business. He trusted the House,would supporthim in the pr9ti,nc- tienof the pther PaperA, and he moved that y the be produced forthwith. ; Mr, JEFFER Y . •thought he had: great reason to complain of the dafys - Which had taken pace. 'The Honourable Admiral ought to have known every thing about thesePapersa- as to Dodmiday-Book, he believed if would' be doomsday before, - it was ,tiro ;.duC•ed, as he understood _that, the entries had been discontinued tbr -seven or ten years . : Ile had now been - waiting for a long ',time, and hoped he would not ,be•• delayed much longer. The_ reason-.:of .the delay perhaps was,. that it was thought he would . abandon his Motion : he never wonld abandon it ; and be would soon bring , •it forward whether the Paper's appeared or not.' . • Adiiiiral MAR in explanation expreSsed his.surprize that .he. should be charged .with the delay, when the' - Matter - rested with the proper Of fleet* ' L0r4.1-10WICkdid not wish. to interpose may delay._ The motives of the Hon. Gentleman, 'he was bOund, as a Merriber.,of Parliament, to suppose pro per,.•Of these he would'leave the House to judge; but in.the, mean 'time he never heard a more ,un • tbunded accusation than --the present. His Hon Friend had moved for these Papers. Aniple time was allowed for their. prodation—why they were not produced he did not know. The reason might appear When 'they came for Ward. He would ask no favour, of the Hon. Gentleman ; but it was for him 'to consider - whether heelwould press his charge on Thursday. 7 As ;to Doomsday-Book, it waS"singtilar how a Book of Record of, this, nattuu sboul4 have been negle&ed for seven or ten yeart tho.fitel. was as the - Hon. Gentleman had stated it. - If he_had been in his preseht situation, sooner, he would have 'deprecated this discussion altogether, as it Would be prejudicial, to., the public service; but as it had gone so far, he did .not' wish to delay it.-- The Report of the Committee respeaing the duty of 3s. payable upon 'houses of a certain description in Ireland beiw'brought up,- . .; Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved, That the House do agree to the Resolutions of the said Corrimit;- tee. He said he wished to, state shortly to the House the grounds.. upon which he should pro pose to take. off this tax : up to the' year 1793 -houses, in Ireland having but one hearth paid an annual duty. of 25. but in that year an exemption was granted by Parliament in' favour of houses of that .description, provided the.occnpier produced a certifi cate to slew the value. of the house. In the year 1785 that tax was continued without the exemption, and from that time it was renewed annually without any exemption. .In the last,Session of Parliament a duty of 3s. was laid upon :all dwelling-houses not having more than four hearths, • but it was provided that this Tdx should not extend to houses below: the- an nual value of fifty shilling:. He felt it to be,his duty to adopt every measure in his power for .the relief of the lower classes ofthe people, provided it could be done consistently with the public service; and, there fore, he was induced 'to propose the repeal - of this tax because .it was.kine which pressed.upon them severely. It was true tat there was,'' as he had already stated,ah.exemptionin favour of houses be loW a certain value, but this exemption was the cause of Perpetual disphtes between-the occupier ,of the house and the Hearth-money Colle&or, be cause it, nride the latter to a certain degiee the judge of the value of the house. It was true that the oc cupier was not bbrind to submit to the Value which' the Colleaor might fiX upon his house, but then it was, necessary that be should apply to his landlord, or ti). the'person who colic:Lied his rents; and then he had to 'go hafore.ti Magistrate to, obtain the pro per eertificates.; so that in fad his loss of time and i more than equal to the amount of the tax. It was upon this ground that. he should move for the repeal of a tax oppressive in its nature, and not very produaive in its amount. Mr. FOSTER said, he felt himself called upon to say a few -words -upon this-subject. He bad been under the necessity of proposing this tax last year, in order to raise- the necessary supplies, but he was ready to admit that there . was no tax which ought sooner to be taken off than this one, provided it could be done with propriety. When, however, he looked at-the situation Of Ireland, and•of the finances of that Country,' he could not be an advocate for taking it off by this short Cut as it Was now propond. The amount of this tax was about -20,0001. : a year; and if was true that thd annual produce of the re venue ofireland was not equal . to the.expenditnre,- he did not think:it 'prudent to repeal it without due examination ; but, he begged to repeat again, that if it could be done with propriety : he, should be most sincerely glad of it. Before' the House consented to repeal it they ought to cOniiderwhat tax they -could -substitute in the - room of it ; • but this was' not the time to go into this. consideration, for he hoped the Right Hod. Baronet did not tßean to go on this occasion into.a statement of the finances of Ire land when, so few Gentle Men &wit that part of the United Kingdom were present.' The Loan contra&- ed for the service of Ireland for the present year was a , very large one, and therefore it would highly im proper to take off taxes until s.orrie substitute had been provided, and he therefore wished this proposi-' `tin had not been made till the Right Hon. Baronet opened the Budget, when the House-would have an oppOrtunity el; seeing whether the tax proposed as a substitute was or was not more obje6tionable . or more Oppressive upon the Pocit than .the one which it was . prop(ksed,to real.. Suppose,.ior instance, the Rt. !lappet: shguld propose, a tax upon iron as a • jrsw . suhstitute, he would venitut to s:l7, that it weal _l press much mort,hc , 4vily upon the lower, ordc:4 of 'society than the present tax, and there would be no exemption from it. He begged to observe-that the exemptions granted to the poorer classes in Irttland were much more considerable than they were iu England or Scotland. He had thrown out these ob- sercations not with . .any intention of opposing the Right Jim ca Bart. because. lie_was,.fully. aw a re..of - ditliculties of his situation ihe would always make his Observations freely, but•that .sheuld - he as friend notan - enemy - T. t Sir J.NgIizPORT said, ho could !by _no means t pgree with -the Tight Hon. Gentleman with respLi to the- amount ;of this tax / but even. if the arnoullt were as great as he had stated, he should still propost the repeal, as he - did not tilint it formed a part of the fegular financial systeM of Ireland. It was, as lie had already stated, oppressive in its _operation, and was 'calculated to. pio - duce,perpotuar jcalbusies and discontents.. With respeft to the tax which he should submit to the House . in diet of the one I,\ bleb he . .tiOw proposed to 'repeal.; - that would be a subjed" of future consideration. If %could be his duty on a future;day to state to the douse-the WaSrs and Means for raising the .Supplies voted' for the Service of Ireland ; and he would then endeavour to propose such , a scale of taxation, as ; .while'it pro vided fox the exigencies of the State, should press-: as little as possible upon The lower classes of society. The House •would 'then hare au opportunity ~of judging and deciding upon the whole of the subjea. He did not, however, think, that upon the present occasion, his, proposition should be - ,ulet with phan- toms and with ideal taxes which he might hereafter propose. He . ,alluded to what bad fallen from the , Right lion. Gentleman respecting the tax upon iron. This, as he had already stated, would be a,subjed ok discussion on a future day. The Right Hon. Gen tleman had 4dtnitted that'this wa . s an eligible tax to take plf.if it could be done with propriety, and:he • . . hoped that he should be enabled to propose taxes in lieu of this which would be equally , produalve and less objectionable. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that o.c.exemption; were,More favourable in Ireland than ;they were in, England, but it should be recolleaed that in England th - ere Was a certain crite rion to go Lik; viz. the parochial rates, which did not exist in Ireland, Mr. LEE said, he wished the Right Hon. Baronet would state the..amount of:the, tax which lie iiropos- ed to repeal, as be thought that waka point upon which the House ought to be put in possession: He' did, not mean to give, any opposition to the Motion of but he thought it would be better if the. Right Hen. Bart. 'had not brought it forward - until he opened - the Budget.. Sir J: NEWPORT said, he had not the slightest obje&ion to state the amount 'of thii tax, if he. could do it, with accuracy ; but the, ..2.14 was, _that not above one-third , : of it bad been colleaed, he.could therefoie only form a rough estiniate,Of its produce.. cie was.willing, for the . sake of the argument, to take it at eO,OOOl. though he did not really think . that it would produce' above 6 or 70001.—With respea to the other peint, his reason for anticipating the Budget, -and. bringipg. forward this iVlotion -- present was this, that if he had waited until - that .period the colteabrin of the tax t - t - the ensuirit year would have commenced, and then, if Parl?ament had thought proper to repeal the tax, the cause-' quenee would he, that part of. Ireland would lava_ paid the tax while the rest would be exempted frata it. The - Resolution was then agreecrte, and a Bill or dered tube brought in thereon 7 -; The . Order of the Day being read for taking into censideration ftle Report of the Comtnittee respeCting the Stamp on. Bank of Ireland Notes, Mr. FOSTER . said, he thought it wotild be much ,better. that the' pratelice in this Cotintry with respec=t to. Stamps of Bank, of England Notes .. should he, adopted in Ireland, viz. that the Bank should pay a regular . compensation in lieu of the . duty of Stamps but he Wished that the compoSition should be in.:de betweeneheßank and Parliament; and not between the Batik and , the . Treasury. This e ras a power which Parliament could exercise itself, 'and therefore he did not think that it ought to be delegated to others. It was- his intention, if he had, remained in office, to ,have proposed .a composition ; bitt it would have. been, in the manner he had just stated. He then adverted to .the Paper Currency of Ireland; which he said was so excessive as to depreciate itself ; but this . he thought might be prevented by putting the Bank of Ireland upon the same footing es all other Banks, and by. "preveiitiug it' from Making such large advances to Government upon Treasury Bill 4. The latter ,he considered as a very desirable objea; because, by advancing so inuelOnpori Trea 'sury Bills, the' Bank was - prevented from af fording as much accommodation as it'inightOther 7 . wise do to the Public 'hy discount--- A measure had been adopted which would' have the effe& of diminishing the circulation or. Paper, and. that was sending Over a large, quantity of silver -ur rency into Ireland. fle.did not knovtivbethar this praCtiee continued ; he hoped it did, - but lie 'would not pcess the Right Hon.. Baronet for an answer upon this subject. He objeeted to the Mode of bringing forward this measure, arid contended, that the plan now proposed was contrary to former praCtice, be cause, when. the Bank compounded before, it was with the Parliament, and not with the Lords - of the. Treasury.. Sir JOHN ,NEWPORT ;said, he hardly knew how to follow the Right Hon. pentlemail in the • observations which he had made. The Right Hon. Gentleman had admitted, that if he 'had remained in office he should have proposed a composition . ; but ' added, that he would not have fixed the rate of com position ; and that it should be, ,made with Parlia- . ment and not with the Treasury. He begged leave to observe, that the Resolution then befdre the House stated, that it would be proper to compound: When the Bill was brought in, it would be for the House to determine as to the quantum of the corn position, and the persons with whom the power 'of making it shotild.be lodged. , That would be the proper time to discuss. the points adverted to by the . Right Hon. Gentleman. There was one pal t of the Right Hon. Gentleman's' speech which 'appeared to him rather singular: he seemed to wish to diminish the quantity of Irish Bank Notes in circulation, and yet he wanted to increase the' accommodation -given by the -Bank, He did not know.. how the' Bank could increase its eccOnamodatien, except by increasing its .issue of -Notes ;• and itappeared,to hill), that it made no difference- whether the Bank advanced, money --- _