The Sun. — London, England, 1847-06-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT HOUSE OF LORDS. June 4. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack at Five o'clock. REPRESENTATIVE PEERS OF SCOTLAND. Lord KINNAIRD presented the report of the Select Committee on the election of Representative Peers for Scotland, which was ordered to lie on the table. CLERGY OFFENCES BILL. The Bishop of OXFORD presented a petition from the city of Oxford in favour of this Bill ; also several other petitions to the same effect from clergy men and others in the counties of Oxford and Wilts. The Bishop of EXETER was as desirous as any that an effectual measure should be passed, and so were the clergy in his diocese ; still they considered the present Bill to meet the desired end was objectionable in many of its provisions. He. trusted it would be remedied in the Committee up stairs. PROSTITUTION. The Bishop of OXFORD presented a petition. signed by the clergy and churchwardens of Cambridge, praying their Lordships would introduce a measure to facilitate the punishment of prostitution. BIRMINGHAM AND OXFORD JUNCTION RAILWAY. The Duke of RICHMOND moved a Select Com mittee to consider the case of this railway, and named the Noble Lords to constitute that Committee. Lord BEAUMONT said he had intended to have moved an addition to the Committee named, but, as the House seemed to think it was unnecessary, he withdrew that notice of motion. The motion was agreed to, and the several petitions were referred to the Committee named, it being ordered that parties should be heard by one counsel on each side. HEALTH OF TOWNS. The Marquis of NORMANBY presented petitions from the incumbents of two parishes, from the medical gentlemen, and the working classes of the city of London, in favour of the Bill brought in by the Govern ment, and praying that it nay pass into a law. PORTUGAL. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid upon the table of the House, in answer to a question put to him by Lord Brougham on the subject, a number of papers, and a copy of the protocol recently signed by the Ministers of France, Spain, and England, with respect to inter ference in the affairs of Portugal. Lord STANLEY did not think that the papers laid before the House were of such a character as should induce either House of Parliament to prenounce an opinion upon the course the Government had put sued with respect to Portugal. and it would be very unwise, in the absence of any further information, to enter into any discussion upon the suject in either House of Parliamen r. Lord WIIARNCLIFFE moved for certain returns connected with the removal of Irish and Scotch paupers. —Agreed to. The Bishop of EXETER gave notice of his intention to put a question, on Monday next, to the Lord President of the Council relative to the minutes on education. NAVAL PRISONS BILL. The Earl of AUCKLAND moved the consideration of the report on this Bill. The Earl of HARDWICK moved the omission of certain words in the first clause, with the view of throw ing the responsibility of coasmittine and punishing of fenders wholly on the captains of ships, instead of alter. nately on the commando* of ports as well as the cap tains of ships. Lord AUCKLAND resisted the amendment, which was ultimately withdrawn. The report was then agreed to. EMIGRATIi )N. Lord MONTEAGLE then rose to move the appoint ment of a Selec•. Committee respecting emigration as a means of relieving the distress of Ireland. He regretted having to bring the question under their attention so late in the session, but the reason of it was, he did not like to distract their attention with it while other mea sures for the immediate relief of Ireland were in pro gress. Now that obstacle was out of the way, and he trusted he would be able to make out a strong case fir the motion he was about to submit. The facts he would lay before their Lordships were such as, he was per suaded, would fully justify some steps being taken for the advancement of colonisation. When he considered what their colonial empire was, that it contained a population of from five to six millions, and was scattered over every pert of the globe, though he had the greatest respect I.r the efforts of the Colonial-office, he con hicl,?red it required assistance and information in the work of advancing the interests of these colonies, and it was with this object that he was about to submit the present motion. In the present instance they had eight millions of people in Ireland to deal with, and therefore it was their duty to see that emigration was well directed, and that the parties wbo went out were so situated as to produce for themselves the greatest amount of food. While he wished to stimulate emigra tion, he wished it to be distinctly understood that in any measure be proposed he did not mean to dsturb the present course of colonisation. When he said that the amount of emigration from Great Britain to the colonies from 1825 to 1836, was 1,500.000, he exhibited a strong case for the consideration of Parliament. The effects of it would not be limited to Ireland. The question to be considered was whether this emigration shoal,' fib • in a direction towards England or to the colonies an dependencies of the country. He thought that some protection might to be given to this country against the o' - nir fir in - 6 atie'bdurit?True'vagg' *ere-Ewa-7%—Ni the other, it would be quite in vain to expect that legis lative interference could prevent the influx of poor from the country where the lower wages were paid to the one where higher wages were made. It was only by a fair and impartial system of equality that this state of thing s could be rendered such a state of things as should te nd to improve the condition of the people of Ireland. Re ference had frequently been made to this mode of treat ment by Committees of their Lordships' House upon various occasions. It was quite certain that either the standard of the Irish character should be raised to the st indard of England, or that of England should be de pressed to the condition of Ireland. One or other of these things must be done if the condition of Ireland was to be permanently improved. An opinion entitled to the greatest possible respect was pronoucced upon the subject a few years ago by his Noble Friend opposite (Lord Ashburton). His Noble Friend declared, when he was in office, and a member of the then House of Parliament, that Ireland could only prosper under a free and liberal system of emigration. Lord Fitzgerald also entertained a similar opinion a few years back, and if such a system were acceded then, how much was it. required now when the populadon of the sister kingdom had almost doubled,. He had given their Lordships an array of authorities in favour of emigration, but he had omitted two which he was desirous of communicating to their Lordships. No man had taken more interest in the subject of emigration than Lords Durham and Sydenharn, who had given it as their opinions that emigration, when judiciously conducted under Government supervision, not only benefited the parent kingdom, but added to the import ance and increased the value of her colonies. Re had thus placed before their Lordships the autho rity and opinion of men of all parties on the subject of emigration ; and having done so, he would proceed to impress up-,n the heisse the reasons why the question was peculiarly important now, and why steps should be taken to extend colonisation. At the present moment it was admitted that at least one-fourth of the food of Ireland was destroyed; the country therefore was, to some extent, in the prisition of several millions of people _ being suddenly added to the population without the means of supporting them. In such a case they would have at once to decide how to increase the food to the number of people, or take measures to send them when food was plentiful. This was the present position of Ireland; a state of things which, he submitted, could not be mended by the present system of emigration. Nay, so far from that, he believed the present voluntary sys tern only made matters worse. To show this, he need only say, that the emigrants which left the country were those who had small capital, or those who were the ablest of the industrious of the population. A drain on tin capital of the country was thSrefore continual!) going on at a time when it' could least af ford it. The Noble Lord read extracts from returns respecting, the various districts of Indand, in support of the statement which he had made. He had no objection to the small farmers going to the colonies to improve their condition if they could, but their Lordships should take such steps that these men would not be the only emigrants, as appeared to be the case now. With re gard to Ireland, he could., assure them that, however lunch parties differed on other questions, they all agreed - on this ; and this feeling did not arise from any feeling that haul been unduly raised, but proceeded from the conviction raised through letters received by residents in Ireland from their friends in the colonies, who had been successful settlers, and encouraged their relatiene at home to folh.w their example. He did not wish that the people of England should be called on to bear the ex pense of a system of emigration for Ireland, for he was persuaded that the proprietors of that country were so persuaded of the benefits of the system, that the re sources of Ireland itself would be found sufficient to carry out an efficient scheme with effect. Nsy, he had no doubt that the soil itself would contribute a great tienl towards the expense of such a system. Besides the ( *. s ionista would also give it, for their interests ea eneouratuid emigration, and he thought no better eon publi c coioni be adopted th an t o se t th e em i gr ants means (4. realising works, which w or k s wou ld b e a gr e at funds for seedi ng o th er em i gran t s ou t. Ms decided opinion was, that th e reason w h y t h e A me • titan States mad e such r ap id progre ss , w hil e C ana d a made such s l ow progress , was not because the former had a more fertile soil, or because of political institutions, but on account of the energetic - e vie n w rantei of the American State Governments. In thiswh.er, he wt supported by not alone rest ric ted the report of Lord Durham, Seneral of Canada. But they were an their stadess. The Australian colonies also npere to the ex tensiveCa- field of colonisation. He did hope tha t Lordships would adopt the motion he had pi eee l the paper. It wou ld be takin g anothe r St ep toward. improving Ireland , and if the inquiry resulted in the esta bli s h ms et of colonisan o • s ome system of upon large and .el s e Sca le, he was sure it would go far to get rid of many of the evils under which Ireland was at pre sent labour i ng. Earl GREY would not detain their Lordships at any 'treat length in following in detail the statement of the Noble Lord who b a d j ust sat d ow n, but there were one or two points which henould not pass over without offer ing a few remarks up on ' t h em . He did not agree with the Noble Lord that emigration could remove the evils from which Ireland was suffering. The task of trans porting large masses of people from one quarter of the globe to another was not so sasily accomplished as his Noble Friend seemed to think. He valued the im portance of emigration and colonisation as mach as any eoue when confined witlan proper limits, but while deal ing with this motion he could not conceal from himself that a large number of noblemen and gentlemen, in a memorial they had presented to their Lordships, had TIDE S N,, declared that no reformation could be brought about in the state of things in the sister kingdom for the next two years unless two millions of the peasantry of Ireland were transferred to America. The question ef emi gration of late had been a good deal discussed, , but no one had ventured to propound a plan, and he was prepared, therefore, to say to their Lordships, " Let us have this Committee of Inquiry, and see if this undiscovered plan of colo nisation could be attained "—(Hear, hear.) Other ad vantages might arise from the inquiry , but at all events ! if some others resulted from it the inquiry might have the effect of setting the public mind at rest upon this extensive and interesting topic.—(Hear, bear.) Up to 1830 no settled principles of colonisation were adopted by the Government. About that time a commission I was appointed to inquire into the subject, and the re sult of that investigation was the establishment of Au stralian emigration. Since that period, upwards of 100,000 persons have been transferred from the shores of the United Kingdom to the colony, and the number wes annually increasing. A good deal of the success of the system was attributable to the exertions of the Emigration Commissioners, who had succeeded in reducing the cost of passage, and producing such ample accommodation for emigrants, that the mortality of late amongst emigrants had not amounted to mere that one per cent. It was the ietention of Government to extend the system of colonisation, which had proved so successful in South Australia, but before it could be carried on to the extent recommended by the Noble Lord who had introduced this motion, a good deal of caution and inquiry was ne e-scary. True, in America the system had been no less successful than in South Australia, although it bad re ceived no Government aid in that quarter. But before they could turn their attention to that object, acme pre cautionary measures would have to be taken. Last year upards of 1,900.000 emigrants were landed in Canada, who, through the instrumentality of the Emigration Commissioners, were distrib ited throughout the country to places where their labour was likely to become avail able to the settlers ; and their Lordships ought to take care that no act of their's should have the effect of interrupting or overdoing the beneficial system. There was now a system of complete protection for the emigrants to Canada, and there was no abuse but was at once put an end to by the interference of the emigration agent. The consequence of this was, that emigration was proceeding steadily and healthily to those colonies. He said now, however, and-he said it formerly, that it was only a practical delusion on the Irish people to state that the evils of that country could be remedied by a system of emigration. He stated so in 1843, and he now repeated it, that it was impossible by this means to pro vide a remedy for the evils under which Ireland was suff ring. Ile believed that those who were lees' acquainted with the subject were of the opinion that there would not be less than from 200,000 to 300,000 emigrants this year to America. Large as that number was, he thought they could be provided for, in cerise quence of the means of distribution which was at present in existence, and of the demand for labour. But if this number was increased to a large extent by • Government interference, he feared that the effect would he great suffering in the whole body of emigrants, and • that a considerable check timid be given by this artifi cial stimulation to emigration generally. This hap pened in 1832, the year of the cholera, and `he results which followed then, and which were well known, would. he apprehended, again recur if they adopted the same means to increase emigration, as the colonies would not be fited to meet the increased demand in their resources, and would not be able to absorb this surplus labour. The Noble Lord then read extracts from the dispatches of Lord Elgin, to the effect that the emigration hitherto had been easily absorbed, and that any interference with it might be attended with the meat injurious con sequences. He (Earl Grey) thought, that if Noble Lords perused these dispatches—especially those which arrived recently, it would be apparent to them, that any artificial increase, such as that proposed, in the number of emi g rants , would not be attended with beneficial consequences. His Noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) said, that by tha establishment of a system of public works in Canada, a wide field might be opened for the absorption of labour. Now he (Earl Grey), would like to see a system of railways laid down in that colony, and he would like particularly to see a railway laid down from Halifax to Canada, as this would open up access with Canada, at all seasons of the year. If that policy were adopted, he thought the greatest advantages would result. But these were not things which could be pushed on with the rapidity some gentlemen desired. In the first place the surveys were in a very imperfect condi tion, and instructions had lately been given by the Master-General of the Ordnance to have them pushed on with as little delay as possible Lord Elgin also, it would be seen from these papers, was to bring the subject before the Local Legislatures of the colony. Besides these objections, the present financial state of this country must be considered ; it must not be forgotten that it was with the greatest difficulty that they could prevent the Exchequer bills from being re urned to the Government, and that they were nut in a condition to give effect to the railway enterprise even of this country. He was persuaded, however, that all these evils under which this country was now labouring were of a transient and passing nature, and that as soon as hey were at an end there would be enterprise sufficient 'o carry these Canadian undertakings into effect- There :vas only one further point to which he felt it necessary o alityle. namely, the contrast which had been drawl, 4etween Ireland 5 n4 . the Awn.rican colonies. It had been 'drably ; and that, therefore, bad rtierenur&l Elect on ad - eument for leaving our;present colonies to their own ex• ertions. He would conclude by saying that he trusted that their peeaetst r .......,ae, gta consenting to this Committee he did not agree in the practicability of carrying out this system of emigration upon that gi gantic scale which alone could render it an immedia'e and effectual remedy for the pressure which now existed. Lord FITZ WILLIAM (who in the commencement of is observations was quite inateliele) said that it ap peared to him that one of the great objections which his Noble Friend saw to an extended system of emigration was, the great expense it would entail upon this coun try, but that was a difficulty which would in a short time be removed, although the present state of the money market might not warrant any great outlay at present. He thought, however, that any expense that was incurred by the Government ought to go to the removal of the evils by which Ireland suffered. The ;overnment bad determined to give pecuniary assist ince, so as to encourage the formation of railways in Canada, and he thought that the same course ought to he pursued with regard to Ireland, where the distribu tion of money would be attended with far more benflecial effects. The want of some system of emigration was universally admitted, and it the Government did not assent in forwarding 'hat object, who was to do it? The landlord would be unable to carry into effect such an extended system as would alone be attended with any satisfactory result, nor, indeed, would they be able to carry it into effect, so as even to produce any great reduction of the sufferings of' the population. He did say, if this country lid not exert herself more than she did on behalf of the improvement of Ireland, and the condition of the Irish people, they would inevitably have to contend with a popular tumult. He was desirous of seeing the improve ment of Ireland, as his Noble Friend had said in iefer -nce to the colonies, by means of public works, and he was certain that that was by far the most economical pro cess—economical, I r r i e : a d tsi u o c nt t i: i vee. the populationl If they Govermentt h didy as eess—econotnical, because the money expended must be he e slargely a ring ee b al y yn 'mzueiimmenselyou would nut de creasedfo r years and years be able to eurmBunt the difficulty at tendant upon Ireland. What most impeded this pro gress of improvement, was the general public opinion in tuch the Government unfertunately participated, that the calamity of Ireland did not become the calamity of the empire. That calamity was great. Suppose they -hould proceed as they bad been doing ; suppose, how ever, that instead of the potatoe, they should wish to in croduce wheat. It was certain that 2 acres or 2 would be requisite for the support of a family that used to exist nn 1 acre planted with potatoes. But he was certain het a was an impossibility to grow two acres of whet this year on the land belonging to those families which had raised each but an acre of potatoes. I his being se, he was bold to say, that unless the 4.lovern ment was prepared to make up their minds to adopt a new course, to foster emigration, and the improvement of Ireland by public works, they Joust have recourse again to votes of money for the support of the helpless in that country. Lord MON ['EAGLE replied—He said he had no ob jection to move fur the memorial alluded to by the Noble Earl, just to resctiejt from oblivion and the dusty shelf. The motion was then agreed to, and the Committee was named. -everal Bills were advanced a stage, and The House adjourned a few minutes past nine o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. June 4. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'c lock. THIRD READINGS. The following Bills were read a third time and passed: Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Sour Valley Rail way (No 2) Branches. Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Stour Valley Rail way (No. l.—Smetherck Deviation). Bristol and South Wales Junction Railway and Aust Ferry. Coventry, Nuneaton, Birmingham, and Leicester Rail way. Derbyshire, Stainrdshire, and Worcestersbire Junction Railway. Dundee and Newtyle Railway. Dundee and Perth Railway (Alteration and Extension, and Inchture, Polgavio., and Inchmichael Branches). Eastern Counties Railway (Enlargement of vie and Stratford Stations and Amend cent of Acts). Eastern Counties Railway (Cambridge, Royston, and Ware Line, 84c.) Edir.burgh and Bathgate Railway (Deviation and .Am , ndinent). Krigsnorton, Northfield, ~ P f e 5. o w nd h o i n tac a r n e d u N ra o u rt c h h -W IL'iov;droPZ) laGnir.N o r th - Western Railway (Coventry and London of and E uesm North-Western Earlo N uneaton Bra nc h es ) . Lester Railway (Ath e r s tone a n d interest they in Manchester South Railway (Purchase of the Junction and &Ual:t rinam Railway) L Olney, onon and WNorth-Wes Radrawa n y c Newport P agne ll, and tern ellingborugh B Lond.rn and North-Western Rallw4. (Portobello a n d Wolverhampton Branch, 8 4 c.) Lynn and Ely Railway (Deviation and Lynn Docks). Northarnpt.n and Banbury Railway. Parkgate and Chester and Bir ke nhead Junction Rail. way. Sandwich Haven. Wexford Free Bridge. LONDON, .SATURDAY CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS. The report on the following Bahl were further con sidered and agreerl to:— Lancashire, Cheshire, and North Wales Drainage and Inclosure Companies Incorporation Loudon (City) Small D bts Weymouth and Melcombe Regis Harbour and Bridge Trusts. SECOND READINGS. The following Bill, were read a• becond• time, and ordered to be committed :—Leiih Harbour and Docks Dues ; Lincoln's Inn Rating ; Ltverpuol Fire and Life Insurance Company. REPORTS. The following reports were brought up, and ordered to 1;e on the table : Aberdeen and Great North of Scotland Rail Ways Amal gamation or Least. g. Aberdeen Railway (Brechin Branch Deviation). Birmingham and Oxford Junction Railway (Warwick and Stratford Line). Buckingham and Bra Iley Junction Railway, and Ox ford and Bletehley Junction Railway Companies Amalgamation and Extension of Lines. Cheltenham and Oxford Railway. East Lancashire Railway (Southport Branch and Preston Ex ension). East Lancashire Railway (Burnley Connecting Line). East. Lancashire Railway (Clitheroe, Milton, and Pali ham Branches). Ea.t Lancashire Railway (Bury to Manchester). Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Burntisland Pier, &c.) Edinburgh Waterworks. Great Northern Railway (Extension to Leeds and Wakefield Deviation of Methley Branch of Wakefield, Pontefract, and Goole Railway). Leeds, Wakefield, and Midland Junction Railway. Leeds and Thirsk Railway (deviation of main line in Crimple Valley, &c.) London an North-Western Railway (Ormskirk and Rainford Branch, &c.) London and North Wes' ern Railway (Kenilworth to Berkawell Branches and Extensions, &c.) London and North-Western Railway (St. Alban's, Lu ton, and Dunstable Branch). Manchester and Leeds Railway (Branches, Extensions, Deviations, and Alterations of Levels, and other Works). Midland Railway (Cheltenham, Warwick, and Leaming ton Line). North-Western Railway (Diversions at Skipton, Caster toil, and Sedbergh). Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway (No. 1) Extension and Amendment. Portadown and Dungannon Railway. Rochdale Canal (Sale to the Manchester and Leeds Rail way Company). St. Helen's Canal and Railway (Warrington and Black brook B , anches, &c.) York and Newcastle, Newcastle and Berwick, and North British Railways Amalgamation. MANCHESTER AND SOUTHPORT RAILWAY. On the motion of Mr. ROEBUCK, le ive was given to the Committee on the Manchester and Southport Rail way Bill to make their report this day, notwiths anding one clear day's notice had not been given in the Private Bill-office _; and the report was brought up and ordered to lie on the table. THAMES CONSERVANCY. Mr. DUNCOMBE moved that Mr. Wortley and Mr. Cardwell be added to the Committee on the Thames Conservancy Bill. Mr. WARD objected to the motion, and intimated hi- should be compelled to vote against him it it were forced to a division. Sir R. IL INGLIS thought a sufficient case had been m ade out yesterday to warrant an addition to the Corn mittee. • Mr. T. DUNCO MBE thought that no objection would be urged by the Committee to the assistance of gentle men of ability, like his Hon. Friends Mr. Cardwell and Mr. Wortley. They not only would, by the addition of hese gentlemen, be receiving an infusion of new blood, but of legal blood—(Laughter)—which was still better ; and after what they had heard yesterday he did not think that the House would do well to remit the ques tion to the same Conamittee7—a Committee composed of the Admiralty and the Court of Aldermen—(Laughter) —a happy conjunction.—(Laughter.) Why, the Court of Aldermen were of opinion that if they did not get this Bill through Parliament this session they would cot get it through at all, and therefore it was that they were so opposed to the introduction of new Members. Mr. WILLIAMS was not surprised that the Secre tary to the Admiralty should be opposed to this Com mittee, for when, as he understood, the Committee were themselves divided in opinion upon the Bill, the lion. the Secretary to the Admiralty decided in its Favour by his casting vote. But the Hon. the Secretary said that this Bill should be approved of, and he con sidered that the Court of Aldermen was a proper Court to have charge of this Bill. Mr. WARD explained in a few words. Sir DE LACY EVANS said that if the motion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury should net be carried he would feel it his duty to propose that the Hon. Mem ber for Finsbury and the Hon. Member for Westminster be appointed conservators of the River, in addition to the Members appointed by the Bill. Mr. HODGSON was understood to oppose the motion. Mr. uunE could not assent to the propositions which nad been made, and he believed unquestionably that the change which he recommended would be serviceable, yet he was ready to accede to the decision of the House.— (Cries of " Divide, divide.") on n,Ao th.n Aastrorl fnr a. The motion was agreed to without a division. BELFAST IMPR3VEMENT. ISeitast Improvement Bill do not proceed with the said Bill until the returns relative to the Belfast Corporation shall have been laid before the House. He understood that the motion was to be resisted by a Noble Lord opposite, tit cause it was supposed that he wanted to get rid of this Committee by a side wind, but really and truly he had no such desire. He entertained no doubt whatever that no case could be made out for the Bill, and sure he was that it would be defeated in a legitimate manner ; but if the inquiry were gone into, he wanted the Com mittee to be in possession of information that would enable them to arrive at a just and proper conclusion. Mr. F. FRENCH trusted the House would not esta blish the dangerous precedent of entertaining a resolution of this nature. The Bill was generally approved by the authorities. It had been reported upon favourably by the Admiralty Surveyor, and he did not think it right that any obstacles should be thrown in the way of the Bill. He trusted under these circumstances Mr. Hume would not sanction the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. After a few worts from Lord CHICHESTER, Mr. GREENE would submit tojihe Hon. Member op posite whether it would not be better to leave it to the Committee themselves. Mr. ROSS assented to this suggestion, and the motion was accordingly withdrawn. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. M-sseng.-1.4 from the Lords brought up several Bills. ILLEGAL IMPRISONMENT. Mr. PERI:LAND desired to ~ know the Welt Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Depart ment, what steps had been taken with reference to the illegal commitment of Mary Dawson, who had been com mitted to prison for three weeks, and punished on the treadmill, for no crime whatsoever ; he also desired to know what further steps he considered it his duty to take. Sir G. GREY said that in consequence of the repre sentations which had been made to him, he had the warrant of committal transmitted, and he was advised that it was an illegal commitment, as the magistrates had convicted under one Act and sentenced under another. The conviction took plaCe under the 17th of George W., cap. 56. and the sentence' under the 67th of George IV. POSTPONEMENT OF THE ASSIZES IN IRELAND. Mr. S. O'BRIEN wished to ask a question of the Right Elon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, of which he had not given notice: it was with reference to the post ponement of the assizes in Ireland by the judges. The gaols were in a very crowded state, and the precedent was not a good one, hut was most objectionable It also ippeared text the postponement w4.uld not have any b..ne6eiil ell; , et, as matters were not likely to mend. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the judges had come to a resolution that a postponement was desirable, but he was not properly informed upon the subject as yet. PORTUGAL. Mr. HUME desired to know from the Noble Lord whether the promised papers in reference to Portugal would be soon laid upon the table of the House ? He was determined to persevere in his intention of makimg his motion of Monday next. - Lord J. RUSSELL —Thepapers will - be on the table of the House upon Monday next, and I propose to go into Commtttee of Supply on Friday next, on which day it will be open to the Hon. Gentleman to bring forward his motion. Mr. HUME—The question is of too much import ance to further postpone it. Sir DE LACY EVANS said that he hoped that the Hon. Gentleman would not persevere with his motion unless he was of opinion that gentlemen could diheuss a question better in the absence of all information than otherwise. He did earnestly desire him to postpone his motion. Mr. OSBORNE said that the House was aware that a collision had already taken place between her Ma jesty's navy and that of Portugal. His own opinion was so strong on this subject, that if the H in. Member had not pressed his motion, he should in the course of the evening, have taken:some opportunity of bringing the matter forward. The Government had every advan tage on its side in keeping these papers, while the House was totally ignorant of their nature.—(Hear.) Mr. BORTHWICK said that the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs. had last night informed the House tha' p , sslble he should lav this eacie on the , ihle of the House-this evening., .t: th H in should be in possession of thug papers on Monday morn ing. In 1826, the 11th December, Mr. Canning, under circumstances similar to the present, had come to the bar of the House and read a paper from the Crown, stating that the interference of England had been requested, and he apologised for the lateness of the itiform4tion, al though he had only received it himself on the previous Friday. Mr. Calming had on that occasion given the information as early as possible, and had sought the sanction of Parliament for the interference, and he thought that a similar course ought to be pursued on the present occasion. The interference which had taken place on a former oc iasion, with the sanction of Parlia ment, had beensuceessful, and all Europe felt the benefit of it. The Hon. and GalLitit Metnb .r for Westminster said they ought not to argue the question in ignorance. There was no necessity that they should do so, for the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs could thought pt th e the r jt House y ought of d e t: p o b t placed G oyzr n i m n abundantly supply them with all information. He of thee fe r r easons which urged her Majesty's Government to in e with the liberties of a nation , in order to sup : Lord PALDIERSTO possession N said that he wished to ob- J - iN I N JUNE 5, 1847. EV serve that the House ought to be fully informrd of the grounds on which the Government acted. But it ap• peered, from the course now pursued by lion. Members, that they wished to come to this discussion without being so informed. He could assure the House that every exer tion would be made to supply the House with the papers at the earliest opportunity, and he hoped t . ust if they were not laid upon the table on Monday they would he in possession of Hon. Members before Friday. He did not wish to follow the Hon. M, mber throughout his argument, but he was convinced-that when the papers were produced, the House would see that the interfer ence of the Government was not with the intention of establishing despotism, but to secure the people of Portugal in the full enjoyment of those liberties whim had been secured to them by the charter of Don Pedro. Lord J. MANNERS said, that the object of Hon. Members in pres..ing forward the motion was that some measures might be b be e t ire a o kenitwaswhicho t wo , u l l a d te b . e aTttheendHeodnwouitrh asrle eeeffect Member for Wycombe had told the House that a collision had already taken place between her Majesty's fleet and the forces of the insurgents. It was because they were anxious that the cause of the people of Portugal should not suffer by any delay, that they wished to proceed with promptitude. Lord H. VANE said that he would suggest to his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose to allow the discussion to take place on Thursday next. The fliiuse would then be in possession of the papers on Monday, and be filly informed on the subject by Thursday. Mr. HUME said, it he could bring on his motion cn Thursday, us a substative motion, that it should take precedence of the other business, he would consent to defer it till then. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he understood the Honourable Member wished to bring on his motion on the day fixed for the Supply, but if he would bring it on on Thursday he would be ready to postpone all the other business. The Honourable Gentleman had mentioned that a collision had taken place between her Majesty's forces and those of the Queen cif Portugal. His (Lord John Russell's) im pression, from the accounts in the papers, was that the collision was between the forces of tue Queen of Portugal and some German vessels. Mr. HUME said that under these circumstance he wished to give his notice of motion for Thursday next. The subject then dropped. Mr. COLLETT would ask the First Lord of the Treasury, whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government, during the present Parliament, to supply the deficiency in the number of Members of this House caused by the disfranchisement of the borough of Sud bury? Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Government had no intention whatever of bringing in such a Bill dur ing the present session of Parliament, nor did he see any reason for the introduction of such a Bill, or that there was any necessity, unless a speci:il case was made out for giving two new Members to the House of Cum mons.7( Laughter.) Mr. COLLETT then begged to give notice that he should shortly move for leave to bring in a Bill to make Chelsea a borough.—(Laughter.) THE WELLINGTON STATUE. Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY begged to ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests, whether there was any intention of removing the Wel lington statue from the arch opp ,site to Hyde park? Whether here had been any communiett-ion with the Committee appointed to place it there? And how long it would be before the statue was removed from its present site? _ _ _ Lord &ORPETH. said, that in reply he had to say. that it was the wish of her Majesty, that the statue should be removed from the arch. That intimation had been given to the Committee, and in reply they had stated that it was their impression that sufficient care had not been taken to guard the scaffolding about the arch. When they intended to remove the statue he could not say, for ho was not acquainted with the state of the Committee's funds, hut he might sly that both the sculptor and the architect wero di.isatisfied with the effect of the statue as it now stands. And he had only further to say, that h. .r Majesty had signified her plea sure whenever the House should vote funds for the completion of the arch, according to th. original deign, that any further decorations placed upon it should be illustrations of the achievements of the Duke of Wel lington, and should mirk the sense of the country of his merits and deserts.—(Hear, hear.) REDUCTION OF DUTY ON SALT IN INDIA. Viscount SANDON put a question to the President of the Board of Control, whether he had received in telligence of a notification published by the a.puty Govairnor of Bengal, on the 31st day of March, 1847, by which on and after the Ist day of April, 1847, the prices of salt in store in Calcutta, manufactured under the G.- vernment monopoly, and the duty on imported salt, were to be reduced, but unequally, and without Rodeo to the importers ; and if so, what steps the Government in this country are prepared to take in respect of such enact ment? Sir JOHN CAM lIOBFIOUSE had to inform the Noble L ird that it wai perfectly true that the Indian Government had thought tit to reduce the duty on native and British imported salt. The best thing, however, which he thought he could do. was to present to the [louse the papers from the Indian Government which related to that notification. A great mistake had been made with respect to the (hit: , upon British and upon Leave salt, as it was stated Oat th.y were nor the ,taint ~ whereas the duty upon both was reduced 25 rupees. :11 1 11T t Pon a Ecir British salt. r vila;;;;E: the t of Bengal had made an exception with respect to a cer tain diwription of.salt, but the papers which he hatend.d to pr sent to the House (and he held a copy of them in his hands), would givu the fullest information on the subject. It was stated on the 25th of March, 1846, that an alteration would be made after the Ist of April, 1847, so that the parties were not taken by surprise, and lipt-t have been Wily prepared for the change which had taken place. _ In reply to Sir JOHN PAKINGTON, Sir J. C. HOBEIOUSE said ihat the change had not taken place as a counter blow to anything which had been dune. WELLINGTON STATUE. Lord J. MANNERS wished to know whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to commence the pedestal of the Wellington Statu, before an estimate was suhmitted to Parliament of its expenses. Lord NIORPETH said that if the plan and estimates were ready they would most certaink be submitted to the House ; and it was not the intention of the Government to remove the statue from its present position until the pedestal was ready. MARY DAWSON, Mr. FERRAND said that it was his intention to bring the committal of this case at an early day before the House. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN wished to know whether Governm , nt intended to proceed with the Agricultural Statistics Bill this session? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that in answer to the quesii.m of the lion. Gentleman 'he Member for Cuckerinouth it was quite true that a repot-, had reached the Government that the potato disease had again made its appearance, but he thought that it was too early at present to form any certa'n julgment upon the subject, as last year the great attack of the potato disease did not come until Joly. In answer t.. the Hon. Member who had last sp , ken, the Government did not intend to proceed w th the Agricultural Statistics Bill in the course of the present session. Mr. OSBORNE said that there were two different sorts of potato, the early and the late, and the early potato had shown symptoms of a d:sease entirely dif recent . from the disease of last year. He thought that the Government ought to use some treasure to hinder the people of Ireland from sowiroz the quantity of po tatoes which they were at present putting down, as the disease app , ..ared bk.ly to spread. Mr. LABOUCIIEttE said that there was a body c tiled the Agricultural Society of Dublin, which took a great interest iu the general agriculture of the country. He thought that it would he far better for such a body to 'give advice than for the Government to take upon itself the great respothibility of advising 'tat cours the peoplo sh.,u:d pursue upon such subject. Sir H. W. BARRON said that if the people were enc,Hl • raged to sow any substitute for the potato, it should be tho one which had Peen recommended in the Gardener's Chronicle, namely, haricot beans. These Deans formed an article of fool to the lower classes of people in very large districts of France, Spain, and Portugal. Mr. E. B. ROACH said that when he had left Ireland a few days hence, he hal not heard any report of the re appearauce of the potato disease. He had been round 100 acres sown . with nearly every sort of potato, and in not one single instance had any tendency- to di-ease been observed. Ile thought it would be the better way to put in crops of late turnips, which he had done with great success last year. Mr. OSBORNE explained, and the subject dropped. CHARGES ON VESSELS: The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in reply to a question from Mr. EWAR,T. stated that an arrange ment had been made last year in reference to this sub ject. PUBLIC WORKS IN IRELAND. Lord d. BENTINCK said he wished to ask his Right Hoe. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchepuer whether ho was in a condition to inform the House what would be the expense of the staff employed on the public works in Ir e l and, or whether the cost of the rat i ons was 2d. or 20. each ? Al so, what WAS like ly to be the cost of 5,800 c l er k s and overseers, last y ear , which, if it equalled that of would amount to about 7 30,0001 . The CHAN CELLOR of t h e EXCHEQUER sa id that it w as to the fir st question of his No bl e F r i en d , b ut h e was perfe c tly i mposs ible to give a direct answer quite ready to lay on the table of the House the last return wolich had ~ .een received. He could not say -xitetly, at LiW pre,ent inonient, wh-it the outlay was last :4 !arday.,.re r :cow, had viniel from 2i to a half, envy, but he 11,1i,ve.1 that the average wa, p tiny. Lord G. BEN TINCK said that they had had the re turn of the expense of the staff up to the last statement, and it was there asserted that the whole, or at least a great number of the labourers had been dismissed, and he desired t) know whether there had been any pro portionate reduction of the staff. By the last returns, it appeared that the weekly cost was 14,2001., and thil the number o f rat i ons issued doily was 2,200,000,000 It would appear by this that the yearly expenditure in this department alone, would be upwards of 700,000/. and this, he thought, r, quired explanation. The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER said that he did not state what the cost of each return was, but he stated that the whole cost would be 2,600,0001. IRISH RAILWAYS. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, in answer to a ques tion, that it was not his intention to proceed with the vote for Irish railways on Monday next. Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE PORTUGAL gave notice that, in the event of Mr. Ilume not persisting in his motion, re specting Portugal, he would move, on Tuesday next, that it was hostile to liberty, Bud injurious to the i4ll, tereFts of this country, to enter into any convention, having I,pr its object the upholding of any dynasty in foreign countries, or suppressing public opinion in them. Lord JOHN RUSSELL explained to the Hon. Gen tleman that his motion c uld not be taken before the other motions which had been fixed for Monday. Mr. S POO '• ER stated that be had given notice that on the order of the day being read on Monday. he should call the attentiun of the House to the recall of Sir Eardley COSTS TAXATION BILL. On the motion of Mr. HUME, this order of the day was postponed until next Friday. LO k N DISCOUNT BILL. On the order of the day for the third reading of the Loan Discount Bill, Mr. GISBORNE said that he had been informed that there would be very little discussion upon this Bill, and if that were the general 11.TISO of the House, he was quite willing to abid..- by it, but if the Chancellor of the Exchequer were to make another speech, and other getrlemer were to speak, he thought it but fair that he and others should also give their opinions upon this mea sure and the Bill of 1844. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that hP had never said that this order of the day was to go off without any discussion. He had heard that there would not be any prolonged debate on this subject, but he had never stated that fact to which the lion. Member had alluded. Mr. GISBORNE said that he was sorry to have mis represented his Right Honourable Friend, but when the statement that this was to be the first order of the day, had been made, he was not present, and he had heard that there was to be no discussion upon it at all. Aft: r a few words from Sir G. GREY, which did not reach the gallery. Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said that it was no in tention of his to protract the debate, as he understo..d that the matter wend be taken up by abler hands, and he had only spoken for himself. when he said that there would he no debate upon this measure. He had in tended to bring in a Bill to repeal the Batik charter of 1844. Lord J. RUSSELL said that if there were any inten tion of bringing any measure forward, for the alteration or repeal of the Bank charter of 1844, it had better be brought forward in the shape of a motion. Sir R. PEEL said that it would he better to bring this matter forward in a more substantial way, and he for one should not trouble the House with any observations OM this oce,sion. Mr. BERKELEY said that the better course would be to allow the Bill to pass without any discussion. After a few words from Mr. HUDSON, which did not reach the gallerr, Sir R. PEEL said a few words in explanation. Mr. BARING, said he thought that the discussion had better be taken upon a practical measure. Mr. SPOONER said that he wished, if he went at all upon the subject. to enter upon it luny, which he cold.' ❑ot do then. He thought that the debate had better be adjourned to another time, provided the Noble Lord the 11, , mber for Lynn would give an assurance that the subject wouti he again brought forward in another shape. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he at first understood that the discussion wi old be up , n the Bill itself, but he afterwards understo, that the discussion would be taken upon a more substantive measure with reference to the Bill. Lord G. BENTINCK said that he had another friend who intended to bring furward a Bill for the Repeal of the Baok Charter of 1844, and it that Hon. Friend did not do so he sh iuld do so himself. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he was happy to inform the House that 2,678,0001. had been paid op already upon this Bid. Mr. SPOONER urged that the Right Hon. Baronet should not have refused the offer which was made to pay up the money upon this Bill. That refusal had en couraged the bankers to believe that the Right Hon. B ironet had a sufficiency to meet the demand upon him. He ought to have foreseen the consequences ~r his measure, and he ought to have informed the con tractors for this loan that is demand wiiulif be made upon the Bank, and not have kept them in perfect ig norance upon this subject. The refusal of the Right Hon. Blrenet to receive the money at the time when he was making a detwind upon the Bank, was not in •ic cordance with sound policy, or even fairness to those who were making the advances. The CHANCELLOR of the F,XCIIEQUER said, that it was quite true that at the time he refused thr. money that he did not think he should want it, nor was there any circumstance which he could foresee which would lead him to the belief that he should want it until the proper time for payment came. Mr. NEWDEGATE rejoiced that the debate of this day had called I firth from the Chancellor of the Exche quer a more favourable bulletin with respect to the " Old Lady" in Threadneedl -street, than he was able to issu , upon the ()evasion of the la-t debate. He thought it har. l to saddle upon the Chanc.dlor of the Exchequer the blame of causing the pressure which had existed on the money market, The Bill was then read a third time and passed. PRISONS BILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE. On the order of the day for the adjourned debate on the Prisons Bill. Mr, EWAR t slid that he differel from the Hon. Member for Southwark (Sir Wm. .Mulesworth), wk: , ,tated in his speech last evening that he should nut ha' been surprised to have heard of some calamity „ rants ot that wretched colony. He did not think that the vengearce of Heaven. if he might use so strong a term would have fallen upon the guiltless inha bitants of that place, but rather the dire visitation woulii have fallen upon the heads of the legislators of the mo ther country. When he brought forward his m. , tion in the list session the Houso was cairited out ; hut he wit. fully convorcird tha7 rune that a period would sow. arrive when the subiect would be brouAt more fulls anal .eriou:ly under the consideration of the House 1 - ) . the Government itself; and those anticipations were now fully borne out, and the Government had brought forward a measure, embodying almost the identical plan which it w,s th , •n his intention to have proposed to the House, hat it not, been that the then Government care lessly allowed the House to be counted out up in so important a subject. With respect to the Btli now before the House, he approved of the proposition as carrying out the separate system as at Pentonville, but he disapproved of the proposed plan of making the convicts work together in gangs; he eniirely disapproved ot any system of congregating together those persons It Iv is an admitted principle that the convicts, when they entered the prison, should see as little as possiule of each other. After the prison discipline hal ben fully carried out on the convict, was it not an absurd thing to bring the convict out of the influence of this separate system. place him along with numerous others of a similar or worse character than himself, and thus afford him the full-st opportuni y for failing back into those vicious habits from which he had been wean •d by the influence of :he separate .system? lie regretted, therefore, that the Govertimient had thou.2.ht proper to introduce this sys tem into their plan. The system of assignment was a g.aid sy stein only on account of its being in effect s .eparate system, and upon that ground infinitely supe. rior to any system which proposed to deport the con vies en manse. and in a congregated and gregarious body to one c , long or penal settlem- , nt.. He did not think that much weight was to be attached to the d of the ,julges upon this point. They were in their habits entirely microscopic. and it wasAuite as natural to suppose that the powers of a microseope were similar to those of a telescope, as that the minds of persons long habituated to the study of the subtleties of legal lore should be supposed to be able to give a ,orrect opinion upon so enlarged a question as th it of , ransportation. And with al deference to these Learned Judges, he wool! say that they were the last persons in the cowttry to whose authority he would deter upon a question of this kind. With two exceptions, one in Germany and the other in Prussia, the des t.nguished men who had turned their attention to the subject were in favour of separate con. tinealen', as a . great means of reformation. Many Hon. Gent lernam did not distir gnish properly be Neen s..parate and silent confinement. S , parate cori tiii,ille nt (.14i not restrict communisation with others, as the prisons r had intercourse with those who were likely to do him good and not evil ; but the silent system was wore severe in nature, as the person so incarcerated had but little communion with others. He entirely co incided with that part of the Right Hon. Baronet's state. went which bad reference to employing the prisoners at fixed labour, a system which had been introduced with toe best •-fl ets among the prisoners intrusted to the care of Captain Macconoehi. Although he dill , red with some of the details of the measure, he generally concurre in it, because it proposed the system of separate confinement, improved discipline, and because it did not destroy hope in the minds of the guilty, lb:- if they de stroyed hope in the minds of these unfortunate persons, they would find that all their exertions at imprisonment would be futile. Mr, (WYE had no intention to object unn.cessarily to the inievaire of the Government, and trusted he might. to the course of his address, be enabled to assist the Government in some of the details which were to be en countered in a plan fraught with so many difficulties as that of convict discipline. He regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark (Sir. W. Moles worth) had reflected so severely upon the conduct of his Noble Friend Ltrd Stanley. He had matured a plat: of convict discipline, but if it had failed, surely the Nobl. Lord ought not to be blamed for the faults and failure of his agents, and they were selected from those who seemed best adapted for carrying out the system he had proposed. It seemed to him, also, that the Hon. Baronet had not paid that attention to the Right Hon. Baronet', ,peech. which it deserved from one who differed with the plan he proposed. When his Noble Friend acceded t. office, the system of convict discipline was in a most imperfect sta , e, and he did his best to remedy it ; and he appealed cootidenly to the public to pass judgment upon the course which his Noble Friend adopted, because he believed it was carefully revised, and would have been most successful, if it bad been properly carried out. lie had no intention to advert unnecessarily to the con duct of the late Sir Eardley Wilmot, but he could not in.lp stating that tha' gentleman, in a communication to :11r. Gladstone, dated July, 1846, spoke favourably of the system of probation passes. and of the good which bad been eff cted by his system. With respect to Major Childs. he thought it right to state that he had been recommended to his Noble Friend as a gallant officer of M4rines. as a good di , ciplinarian, and as likely to till the offi , !e with adva,nta te, which his Noble Friend had found some difficulty in filling. The office was that of a gaoler, with tut society, as it was in an isolated part Of the col on y. B ut hi s No b le Friend oug h t no t to be blamed lor th e con d uct o f M a j or Child s , b ecause he had appointed hi m un d er t h e b e l ie f t h a t b e w as the best per son to fill t h e of fi ce; an d h ere h e oug ht to state, that hi. Noble F r i en d h a d appo i nte d p ers o n s without favour, and with a sole de.ire to promote the public service. He (Mr. Hope) was i n f avour o f g i v ing the convicts, when th ey reached their destination, probation papers, because, if they conducted themselves improperly, they could be rev' ked ; but the plan of giving them their discharge as soon as they arrived at the end of their journey, might lead to great evils. He therefore contended that the views of the Right Hon. Gentleman were perfectly consistent with the measure of her Majesty's Government. He did admit the difficulties of controlling distant colonies, but the spirit ot economy, which was meant for the good of the country, was too much developed over the other side of the world. A more liberal *expenditure would secure them a better inspection, for the amount of remuneration was not at the present moment sufficient. The evils which were admitted to have arisen did so from the want of the commonest vigilance, from the result of separation, from the want of employment, and the want of accom modation. He believed that if greater facilities were afforded they would remedy all these evils ; and the Australasian colonies afforded the very best means to effect the object which ought to be desired. They had numerous natural prisons where seclusion was effected by nature, and from whence escape would be less frequent as this attempt would be more difficult. All they wanted in Van Diemen's Land was labour; they had in that country, with a population of 60,000, an area equal to that which Ireland presented with 8.000,000. It was not his intention to impugn the separate system, but the House should not so easily believe that in this system they had the cure of all the evils complained of; it appeared to him that too much had been said in its favour, for it was a n torious fact that many of those who were the best conducted con victs in Pentonville had proved themselves the worst in the penal colonies. In the last report which had been made upon the convicts who had been sent train Pentonville, and who had obtained whilst there high marks of confidence, in which it was statsd that they gave way to temptation the first moment it was placed in their power. The reason of this might ba that the criminal was too soon exposed to danger, and in his opinion the separate system would he much better pre , ceded by the gang proposition. thus the criminal would first receive his punishment, and when his mind was in a healthy state, then the separate system would work well. The second stage appeared to him to be encum bered with more than financial difficulties. There was a feeling, a desire of reaching home, which could not be gratified in the penal colonies. and, therefore, one of the motives towards the reclama tion of the convict did not exist. Tiiey had the ex ample of a neighbouring country, France, on this subject, where a military system existed, but so diffi cult was it to control convicts, that theugh a sentry stood with a loaded eiece on the ramparts of their pri sons, yet still they found it impossible to make the system work well, and whole districts were overrun by runaway convicts, who carried with them all the contamination which was the natural consequence of their dissolute lives. A large portion of the convicts might, under the present system, be sent abroad under control. It' sufficient information, pro tont), could not be obtained, he would wish to know what course the Right Hon. Gentleman would propose ? He was afraid that the system proposed by this Bill would entirely fail. In 184.5, in Preece, under the penal system, 7,961 men were withdrawn. Out of a popula. tion ot about 35,000,000, about 8,000 had been removed from the country. As to the general effect of tramper tation, he might refer to the advantages that accrued to the penal colonies from .the system of transportation. He would refer to the authority of Mr. Baker, a barris ter who, speaking of Sydney, spoke in the most favour able terms of the state of society there ; and this was most important, because Sydney was a great resort of convicts ; and then the vices of prostitution and drunk enness were, for its population, numerically small. He thought, therefore, the case for the tote( abolition was not made out so strongly as to call upon the House to stave its assent to a system to that effece—(flear, hear.) If it was intended to establish any sy -tem of transporta tion, and apply the system of giving tickets of leave, a new and entirely independent colony would have to be seunded for the purpose. There could be re, doubt that the colony of South Australia owed its prosperity to the assistance it had derived at an early stage of its exist ence from convict labour. Mr. E. DZNISON had considerable fear, from what had passed in another place, that the system of trans portation was to be put an end to, and a system of exile, or voluntary banishment, was to take its place. He was happy to sue that the system was not to Let abolished, and that convicts were not to be sent out of the country Sri exile as free 'nen, hut under supervision, and under a system 0 , tickets of leave. The present state et Norfolk I-land was mainly owing to the maladnaini,tration of the af fairs of that colony. The course pursued by Captain Macconochie was more adapted to the government of persons not predisposed to crime, rather than to persons who had, in most of the eases been twice convicted and once transported from this country, and which could only be considered as the worn of society, which had risen twice at least, to the surface of the putrescent mass of crime congregated in that colony. Upon the cam inencement of his reign he distributed among the con victs allowances of grog, and entertained them with fire works and plays. It had been said that the sys tem of transportation was not looked upon as it terror in this country. A report had been aresented to the House by the Committee appointed to inquire into the subject, in which it was strongly re aimmend af that as capital punishment had b , err very much reduced in extent, it was highly . necessary that -cue effc , iye secondary system of punishment stiould kept up. The opinion of Mr. Baron Alderson, re 'erred to last night by the Hon. Member for Southwark was not a fair exposition of his Lordship's opinion. as in the portion of his evidence directly hearing on the cities tion of transportation, he stated that transportation was ithselutely necessary. The °pin ons of Lord Denman, tle Baron Parke, Mr. Baron Ro:fe, Mr. Justice Erie, ‘l.r. Justice Wightinan, most, if not all, of the suparior ju ages in the Scotch Courts, Bisons. Lefroy and Peiine father, of the Irish Courts, were also decidsdly favour able to the continuation of the .ay stern of transportation. is the most effective system of secondary punishment. There was no doubt that the colonists of New South Wales were favourable to the assignment system, and he felt that if something of the nature of the assign ment system could be connected with the punishment of transportation, it would have the best effects upon the criminal, while it would directly benefit the chilly to which he might be banished. The inhabitants of many of the penal seitlements found a difficulty in pro curing tree labour, and they were naturally anxious for the establishment of some system which should enable them to take advantage of the services of the convict. He thought, therefore, that Government ought to turn their attention to this branch of the subject. He was quite ready to leave the matter in their hands, and he coped, now they were about to introduce some improve ment into the existing system of transportation, that his suggestion would not be lost sight of.—(Rear, hear.) Sir JOHN PAKINGTON could not agree with the opinions expressed by the Hon. Gentleman who had just resumed his seat, nor could he concur in the plan which her Majesty's Government had oniught forward, no doubt with the best in tender's. This question of secondary punishment had occupied the attention of successive Parliaments, but instead of its leading to any improvement in the system it would appear that year after year the subject was becoming more unsettled and more confused. He had carefully - examined the speeches of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment, and ot t.l.e Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, and he must express his regret that it ap peared to him that her Majesty's Government had not paid that attention to the subject which 41 importance demanded. It was said that die probationary system, as established by Lord Stanley, had failed. Now Honourable Gentlemen who made that assertion should remember that Lord Stanley made his experiment under very difficult cu.- cumstsatc , s; but supposing the probationary system had failed, it did not therefore follow that the punishment of transportation ought to be abolished. He had the fullest confidence in the probationary system. It had never yet had a fair trial, a n d h e very much regretted to find - her Majesty's Government proposing their pre sent plan as a permanent one. The Right Honourable Baronet opposite, in a letter he had writtsn to Earl Grey upon the subject of this plan, said it was to be an experiment ; why, then, had the Right Honourable Baronet departed from the declaration contained in that letter. Now, let him point out one of the difficulties which surrounded this plan. Under the existing system, it occasionally hap pened that the sentence of transportation was passed upon an offender, and yet, from the complicated nature et' the law, the criminal often left the dock without knowing what would be his real punishment. Now, the difficulty of such a system had long been felt, but under the change now proposed the law would be rendered still mere uncertain. The sentence of transportation if this plan were adopted, would some times turn out to be merely a tirade of words, and the criminal, after his trial would return to his cell, not knowing whether he was to be shut up in a prison at home or sent abroad evith his family to a flourishing colony, and there se free to enjoy a state of things that was far more pros perous and happy than the condition of the honest labourer at home. He could not agree in the propriety of such a change, and he regretted very much that it should have emanated from her Majesty's Government. He did not point out these defects in the plan from a factious opposition to her Majesty's Governne nt; but with the view of pointing out the difficulties they were get ting into by adopting baste , changes in the law. To the first portion of toe plan, he would give his support. It would prove a satisfactory change in the law, and he btu; no doubt it would produce the most beneficial results. upon criminal offenders; but with regard to the s econ d stage of the plan, he entertained the most unqualified opposition to such a change. He did not see any reason for depriving the honest industrious labourer of em ployment, by bringing the criminal offender into compe tition with him. Such a piteposal was oppo se d to all principles of sound legislation, and he was sur p r i se d to see a gentleman with the experience of the N o bl e Secre tary for the Colonies, advocating such a change in the system. These were the views he entertained upon the subject. He was sorry to have detained the House so long, but after the remonstrances of the other House of Parliament, after th e expression of the opinion of the judges against the charge, he did hope the measure would not be proceeded with, and should any vote be proposed to arrest the progress of the Bill he should certainly support it.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME said there were few subjects of more importance than that at present b e f ore t h e House. With respect to the Bill itself, he mu s t say t h at he entirely concurred in the principle of it, as he thought th e general central superintendence which it created would be attended with the best possible results. One of the grand evil s a t present existing in the prisons of this country was the want of uniformity, and ne was long of opinion that they should have been changed, and that they should be under one individual inamagemena There ought to be a Minister of Public Justice, to whom should be confided the general sum.- zuteudenco of all matters of this kind. He listened with great satisfaction to the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet, and he very much approved of the principles he laid down. He differed, however, very much from the Hon. Member for Dumfries, and the Hon. Member for Southampton. He did not object to the punishment of transportation, but to the mode in which it was carried out. For a long time transportation was not considered a punishment at all, and the consequence was most in ittrious, as it ceased to operate as a preventive of CriMe As an Hon. Member said to-night, there were three par ties to this question—the colonists, the British penple, • and the criminal—and the interests of n one of these were consulted. They had not less than fro m 20 0 30,000 convicts in this populous country , and, at: co to Mr. Russell, there were convicted within the lest five years, 108,800 persons. His opinion was, that those who were sent abroad would be worse at the end of term of expatriation, under the plan of the Governmen t :: than they were before. He bad quest i one d managers 0f gaols of twenty years standing—he had consulted ow gistrates of the City of some considerable experience.-- the late Alderman Wood for instance—(Efear, hear)—and he found that confinem ent in this country had little effect, and what better would the convicts be by being sent abroad, where a nbng i e . of scene and their liberty would lead them to free" crimes ? But they would endanger the safety of society by confining such an immense number of offenders 111 this country. There would be 30,000 or 40,000 p risoners confined in the gaols of this country, but if there Was any outbreak, the greatest danger might come. Th e y had not two large a number of soldiers in this cote.try for the duties they were called upon to perform, it would be necessary to have 15,000 or 16,000 additionwhic% soldiers for the pie pose of retires,ing any outbreak might ensue. But what benefit would there be in the third: stage ? If they let men loose in their colonies, w il l would be the advantage of the separate confieemen_ which they had under gobs? Then he wished to s e : some line drawn between those transported for sev.e...; fourteen, and for a longer term. Many of the convicts they hail sent to the colonies had conducted theinselve3 well; in fact, but for them 30,000,0001b5. of wool via l ! not have been s.-n t to this country. Therefore, the : a so this! sent system if carried out properly would, he cone e ' answer well. To show that the confinement of prisone. at home did not promote their moral reformation,• quoted an extract from a report to show that the Te r c ct ( l i n m t m . itltnalsLoivfcrcproilonii,naulsriinny:SacoptlearnioddwoafssVaseven per of 51,000 prisoners, 32,000 males, and 19,00 y Ol i e r s i4 e o l/ c ; of s ( o fm o t nr. aatand under drerfi 17 eg e iyearsm weres of age had been c:liam:tted; 2 , s '; c e visited Tothid fields committed, committed;ay h a a n dd informed twice,ed im thrice, person was confined there whoanhdada bpeeersnoncewoh3Ct:t" - 180 times.—(Laughter.) The diffevence betvve o e d " • the number of prisoners convicted in France : 5 0 f thp g Englandre-commitmentsalieyws a 3 s o not e m ee o h r i e tn. Ethanirhan France was o g O iu O m o 3. o 1. Th e wh o ' e the in England 33 per cent. This was a333spieurgcuelsn tr di-nce, but still it was a fact. In London, the eaer ee re-commitments was 47 per cent., whilst the aye r .f. ) , number of committals in the more distant and less p°' pulated places was but 16 per cent.—(Cheers)---shP" of that the removal of criminals from the dense towns into the country was favourable te n . rality. On the same principle, ment • principle was better than any o pt t eh h reecreilks'ss a )..B' f i r : o l3 : they could adopt. because the convicts were remove' asse s the contamination always to be met with in dense !l eve l of society.—(Hear, hear.) A man ought to be re duct, from his punishment on account of his good to and any hoethehresldysttheamt they this could would abdeoPt He m ore retell° alCO° than l tha i t Captain Maceonochie had be n badleye°tail'esaidteedre; the b te system had not failed, but it was owing' pct conduct of his successor that such a te em' had been spread abroad. Let them only re,r iops , ber what had been said by Sir George ,Y,:ves namely, that on his arrival in the island, alt lit ' ug " wholly unexpected, he found the conduct of the con Ter, orderly, and their demeanour respectful. li c)we n er Captain Macconochie was recalled, without any Pr e ..ii ie t reason, and an officer was sent out who adopted f a iled ,theol system, and it was no wonder that the former o be He considered, therefore, that transportation ought " A dj , continued under a properly revised system ; _L c colonial appointments should be filled with proem persons, the men sent out were gene rally thos e t he the Government were anxious to get sent salaryo for country. He _had never objected to a proper a competent person. but a high salary rendered there'll__ fit for duty. No min could stand a high 5113/17- to (Laughter.) He would recommend the Governmettoa reconsider their determination, g be sh _ support the Bill, he would proposeseveral alterations the Committee.that Mr. HAWES said that he was surprised to fled the plan was exclusively regarded as it affected the ino,: t . ta countries, and not with reference to the mischievous en.'ed upon the colonies. There could not be a plan "bad to destroy and dig up the resources of any colon,' °ll i a suever. The Hon. Baronet (Sir John Pakington) Pe. referred to the system of transportation as being he e . be ficial to New South Wales. He had also said tha t : b i ll coi,ve.t should undergo the probation system in untry. Why, that was the very propo sition of thet Gove , tim. nt. The Howe should not for a m oor t° Suppose that the greatest efforts had not been n3ede secure the strictest dincipline. Let them only turn the re its which hat been made to the '-louse fr time to rime. Well, then, it they had given 15 ) 01 " succe-save , _ff,rts by succeeding Secretaries of State te a t" these had failed, were the Government to be blamed fete' re,eedy the evils of the whOle system, and if ‘ . 61. endeavouring to introduce a new and well corsideral prop :sition, such as in hii opinion was the present. fit • was prepared trose h t o o s v, h ,a c s iw a l.i s s c H ot o c t h i. m Fr e i m en b d eo th t e ha M t e i n t , ber for woul d be more economical to adopt the principle of prit ° discipline at home than the mode in operation of dap jog convicts keeping them at compulsory labou r in tuci I penal settli-inents, acid employing officer:, to superinteer 1 the system there. One fact would for this purpose Seri the as well as a thousand. The reports from Pell colonies described the population as ever n3ovieg fr rt, the court-house to the scene of punishm—s and from that again to the court-house. Mr. .Vlilleetro gentleman intimately conversant with these te at ld proved that the expense of 1,200 convicts for a P e p '," * l of four years would be, if transported to the P,,: t of settlement, 177,9001., while, taking the averan ` o ,'" the prisoners in the penitentiary at hotnet u od, number could be maintained for 85,0001. On the g l i ;i e at therefore, of expense alone, he thought that a e i. . ther io case was made out for a change in the system e l ' It pursued with regard to the subject of transportati su c%. r . was surrounded by diffieulties, but, on a fu ll conci by tion of it, he considered the modification propoee, the the Government one which would be productive 0, the best results, and would be less expensive te country and more effective for the repression of er";d,, He hoped that the House, seeing the difficulties l att e ro ing on the present system of transportation woul. ° Pale with her Majesty's Government in conside ring VoldV be present was the only practicable system that carried out. cawanotLdLOeu Lord n dhrr ddat be ;N e ac II ti Am, RegistrationisH o yt tion of Mr. NEWDEGATE, the deb ate t ) a ß isT k ß e ur n a i was adjourned. citleSt i°P Ad " ° ' through Committee. NEWFOUNDLAN a D fmtea G rk would be taken. The report of this Sl This Bill went statementslßusks to p e i d l jwntLhames repliedNono, Noble Lord which POLICE (scoteTnEehLeßtthoaNhene:tSaDhEdtc:jho.ssoetcußTßtriO:4l3elagrur:dirde.lejrrirewidigtoe BURGH Th P.IGHWAY RA' The House went into Com weO m hV i o t i This Bill went, through Committee. rESßlLL. STAGE CARRIAGES, &c. DUTIES BILL Colonel SIBTHORP celled attention to the yen crowded state of the omnibuses in the metropolis, v ri - f , brought up and !toe. / the cruel way in which the horses were treated• many occasions he saw these vehicles cr owded in tae clo..est manner, while draw the conveyances behind them, far less the great n umber of persons. the horses were scar cel y able t° Mr. PARKER stated th a t p rovisions were in the Bill by which the Commissio ners would be empowered to deal with the matters to which the kW' Member had referred. The Bill then passed through Committee. SOAP ALLOWANCES BILL. This Bill passed through Committee. of The other orders of the day were then dislvsaa and the House adjourned at Half-past Twelve e'en:ok. 1 stela: LIVERPOOL, FRIDAY.—The Royal Mai- a l ship Cambria, Captain Judkins, sailed to-day for Bost l vo . Halifax, with the usual mails and a large number v sengers. x/4 [ ADVERTISEMENT.]—DEBILITY AND W E A 31 10 EXTRAORDINARY CASE.—CURE BY HOLLOWAY'S nus.-----aolot chell, of Bristol-road, Birmingham, was in that weakly state t pali to be able to dress herself, besi es which there was A c°2„rer t a r l e w m a e y i s y g i r il e , a v tl i y si d te e d ureased. in the right side, preventing her lying upon it. She , v":. 37 11 1, ' from head-aches, appetite and digestion very bad, and e r medical advice, but her case baffled the skill of all, and Ye: be atli various w N a o t w er ' in t g hi p s la l permanen.at Pro' surprise of her family and friends she is restored to by the use of Holloway's Pills.—Sold by all druggists , and where she he. 7 0 pi fessor Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand, L0nd01..../ places, where ore she be the bet Ch O ar n le t s h p e Cli fton a 3 r O k th ins u o l n t. :E at .l., of a daughter , Villas, --- IRTHS. • Of the wif ..ir oo disds• On the 31st ult., at the Parsonage, I b erne ry am o Berks, the lady of the Rev. John Bacon, of a son. g r s. Ma sh d l a l - -b c o a rn ie' . On the 31st ult., at York-crescent, Norwood, Stirr e P Sam Smih, of a son.t inst., in Soho-square, s 011• On the Ist inst., at Tottenham , On the t 1s Mrs. E. Foster, of $ 'Mrs. Cox, of a son. _ On the Ist inst., the lady of the Rev. Sydne Turner, 1 7: sident chaplain to the Philant hro p ic Society, of y a daughte r, who survived only a few hours. Wir d On the 2d inst., in Torrington-square, the wife of Ed Willson Crosse, Esq., of a datO____ , !'°' ____.—.,----s'. MARRIED. On the Ist inst., at Hove, Brighton. Henry Oakeley, Lieu' tenant, R.N., to Emily . Letitia, third daughter of the Ist e Colonel Trelawney, R.A. On the 2d inst., at Hove Church, near Brighton, Frederiek Dandas, Esq., M.P., to Grace, eldest daughter of Lady Grad) and the late Sir Ralph Gore, Bar DIED. On the 26th ult., at Iver, Bucks, Richard Wicks, E5(1%,..„ On the 30 th u l t ., in Dawson-street, Dublin, Sir Poriu?"'" Fitzgerald, Bart., of Crrigori, county of Clare. On the 2d inst., Seli a na, the wife of the Rev. Samuel Mme, tin, Rector of Warsop, Notts. On the 2d inst., at Eltham, Kent, Frederic, eldest son Or Isaac Guillemard, Esq., M.D. On the 29th ult., at Abbey - p lace, St. John's -woody Elizg' wife of Mr. James Boyd, aged 23. On the 29th ult., at the Rectory, Harttreet, Mark-lane E g erton Buckle, the infant son of the Rev. -s John Letts- 11.0 L on don: Printed and Published by MUILDO YOUNG, of ,t •trand, Frinter, at The Sun 081ce, N 0.112, Strand, in tbe rTri of the Sivroy, in Os County a ilLiddluez. Saturiair 1647. I t 3