The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-02-22 00:00:00

lll.n 'il d e e ni r I . i t of th , Urity f what ti • hey- IC ..w • T oman convin d the I Ille eir conv i . _ - .;- 213 lir. O'CoxNate rose to address the house. Often as he had e atleua u . . _,,4,,,,,, o red to direct its sympathies towards the wrongs of his '..--.. ----- '‘'''' ie"" a rrY, unhappy, ill-fated Ireland, he never felt so painfully t o s ehe ttos as at that moment. He would most carefully avoid all aearr conceived that the ancient practice was 413,, faience of expression,—indeed, he felt far too deeply to vent - edreiss of grievances before the house voted cr sur i r o s'74 , l o elin g in mere vituperation. He. had on a former occasion ire he for one could not suffer the house to e e et rat e %Ilse of the terms brutal and sanguinary" iia reference ta uotil he had claimed redress for the grievance in answer to the speech from the throne ; that ad h the inequality of taxation. The laws con, having since obtained the sanction of that house, he abject had been made by the nobility and the !,10- present a,, longer apply to it the language of reproach. 'His and were the most oppressive; it was obset'tt lt : nt object was far other than attempting to charactefoo by always took care to exempt themselves frolnA !c:I:t11.'"-angitage the proceedings of ministers towards Ireland. and, as a body, were the most unust legislat t ; ' 4, 4 ,i `n e Iniunes were so deep, that to denounce them , in mere aisted in any country. What he had to s „a 1 , 6 „, ve language would deprive grief of its dignity. He could assertion, but facts, which he would prove, Tif, a , 4 to address the house in reference to the threatened mea but by a reference to acts of Parliam e nt, anu o i,fei, of !tinkers so as to be knewn to belong to the country ore he sat down, substantiate and convince the ,4,'l,v_uaced by.his accent. He would speak as he most certainly my and gross p ar ti a lit y between t h e taxat i o n r i Heald feel it his duty to do if ministers threatened to deprive e poor man, he would surrender all c l a i m to tab People People of England or of Scotland of the benefit of the laws, common sense. The right hon. secretary fortFS l itutin in their stead the most iron and remorseless des sego, id' that a government must be feared before 4 _ 4 ib er . (Hoar') He would speak as Ise should feel if the The act to which he was about more es eat t h e jles of Englishmen were threatened with destruction, as he only inspire hatred,—he scarcely e st am p _i_:,l tt . gad feel if outlawry were declared against the whole people orge 111, from which it was necessa' a il ii ii hf°tland, as if either were about to be handed over, like his store than read extracts, without much coran°,4 ti',,,l)ay countrymen, to the tender mercies of two or three :he taxes imposed by this act, including the C, i h . 11 8 s 11 military officers, provided they "have been two years mounted to little less than eight millions a yel t .i e service and have attained the age of 21." (Hear.) In nobility and landed proprietors paid nothiag/s yornparatively tranquil temper would he address them, hop sore no part of this burden, h a d t a k en es pecisii 41 4 _ 01 • obtain their ear ni pointing out in their true features, in wavier and heavier as it descended in its ope_ l P t " hauseir hideous deforrni_ yt , themeasures with which his country mbler classes. The legacy duties on persoill' tre,Plreatened by the King's ministers—measures to which a at one and ended at ten per cent. Prole , i de„rinOrn Englishman must feel that death would be preferable, sold property was entirely exempted. Thug th e e va vLag hini, as they would, of all the rights of one not born in e nobility were exempted, but the father or ,1 Ira neat slavery. (Hear.) Yes, though an Irishman—a mere aossess a small funded or other personal prtny th at Tan—the iron of despotism had pot so eaten into his soul ye it even to a child svithout subjecting it to s c i A s a. l' ,, e , did not bitterly hate slavery, and dearly love liberty. duty on any sum exceeding £2O was two Ite r .i the wi - ,"er of liberty h e denounced the cruelty—the madness stinted to 20 . or 30 thousand pounds, this nutlii aadvc,caedness—orthe policy pursued so long towards Ireland, r cent., and as the amount became greater ths ti t ill it alto it was now endeavoured to crown by ameasure depriv- I They might laugh at this, but he would ask l 1I„,:,' altogether of the protection of the British laws. (Hear.) ice ? Would the country laugh w ith them ttaii,,Were told that the ministers stood so well with that house, A had asked him to bring forth his magn „i' th e they could count on a strong majority ; so undoubting was answer, he had only to say he had no prote_ . It ear,i )n ,.P'uce M the uprightness of their intentions, (hear, d, but would like to know why that hon. los;', laria , ' 'oat ministers, who had already done so much for Ire , when he came into possession of his proper ! ) vi ew , w ouid not seek for such extraordinary powers,_ but with a le sixty thousand pounds, the sum it ought to it R e e° effecting more good for that country. (Hear, hear.) I with; supposing the tax to be impartially le h i Illii,"uld Wish to see their claim to despotic power rested on 'd this sum 30 years ago, the nation would not .f ckePast doins.towards Ireland. Let us see what they have w thet sum, and paid interest on it f rom that P e i r e fs . e, They have proposed two good measures—one of church conveyances under £2O was 10s., or 2ti per c; i ) tait , F . , and one respecting corporations. He was ready to ad- Lndred thousand pounds only one thousand p°.„"s first at that so far as the abolition of the church cess went—the eat. Thus the poorer man paid 20 times as T t l %t e 't Sir me as it was a boon to Ireland, (hear, hear,) man, who escaped almost scot free. The - dal 'all ii ° iarther; besides that its beneficent operations would be .qually oppressive. It might be said these tb i t y a a hurry. He (Mr. Cobbett) had no 'e:t e , 7 l P r ,ospectitve ;it relieved no other existing burden con butblli tithe -a, with the monstrous church establishment, audit left the ;rag were done by night, for they never coul-I trile t h at where it now is—in all its ignominious glory. It was y day. They duty on a mortgage of £25 1 be wl'at he had met the announcement of the measure cheerily ; e twenty thousand pounds the duty was only aeheZnot disposed to retract a letter of his approbation of its pounds per cent. on the poiir, and two shillioF hai te ,1 -111 a -4 -eney ;it was too seldom that such opportunities of rich man, and he would ask, were they whQat i /le re g t neasures of kindness towards Ireland were afforded him. sassed these duties honest men ? An aunle t y A 4 ,Peated that the abolition of the vestry cess would be a as subect to stamp duty o ne e f V-d li k l', Ireland. He would go further, and say, that it would y £25, instead of £2OO, and it' it were granoteol t at ' Th aself e h n h ' - -- a greater extent than the noble lord (Althorp) any greater sum it only paid the same. d e „ lie had stated. But no other burden or grievance would • an amount of two pounds was subject to aJ th p E e POoVed by the proposed church reform, and the war against rag, and the largest sum on any bill was ~il ,s t , t , Jensen's pigs and his tenth . potato would not be even 7 hy should the needy tradesman be subje,cp ',th er g e `' dby it. Then why, it might be asked, did he the whynot keep up the proportion upon ali,. o el (3 '1'4( 4 V ening SO warmly approve of it ? Because it established rtion might have arisen from oversight or ineu t d l't et , 4 Princi.pk, (hear,) because it admitted what had been so attribute it to any but interested motives, that a a ~staai :! „nied in that house and elsewhere, that the Irish church one pound per cent. and the rich sixpence or''a the „ninent was far too massive and costly , for the wants, ay, same kind of instruments. The henourable,sa ;or Pt,ritual wants, of its members—according to the noble the inequality on life insurance's, and isal°, o l; Pra.,‘ 33ci ‘ least twice too large. (Hear, hear.) . But the noble tors might have been fox-hunting squires, rap colk e asure recognized an admirable principle, from which doted with business , generally, but an these .al .qat, „ not shrink, namely, that where there were no spiritual m good care of themselves, f or t h e d uty o n al t , , ; l e i at ats ul , ere was to be no spuitual receiver of tithes and charch f fifty pounds was 2s. 6d., and on fivebiro m ade to -eth and he, therefore, hailed it with satisfaction. Having sly 155., and above that sum, up to a million, ~,athey iiiie admission of these excellent principles of church reform, to £l. Had he (Mr. Cal:sett) seen in ther e) 1: 941y 41:1 invest their ecclesiastical commississioners with as ad'of his Majesty's government any intentio, I ` , ll e ~?,,w el) forms and injunctions as they pleased, that admis . farthing of taxes of any description he slinni t .lo ,titire benefit not be eluded, and the measure would produce much is exposition ; instead of doing this, be W e i, N t i l i kad e e it l efit (and he was anxious that this should be determined, even at the point of the baya_ o t v hezoi!ewhere) than might be apparent on the face of it. if necessary. In one instance, however, e 11c . ,,,, ,u i lre 4( re plan of corporation reform was before them he should s. stamp duties were levied impartially, II n e o h rid' h Y u t -estow upon it every praise to which it was entitled. on apprentices indentures. These descen r a i alasly ° ,,,'e might, perhaps, laugh at what he was about to the premium paid; but then it must be affect'.obs?l heat'o esi 'ate ef‘,onern. mg those measures, nevertheless he would of lords, baronets, or parsons, were not tl tate of -- ' declare that he hoped to see the day when the ey seldom became apprentices, andwere muse , ell at the government which had dared to bring forward ed of in other ways. The auction duty en 'lade to °lltrageous' violation of all law and justice would be was 7d. in the pound. Property of this kind et '4 th e anew teens' for his conduct to the justly indignant Commons Ito the rich and noble, but every other spec' .t a b ta - ' a s fin- te4 hp ire. (Repeated cheers front the opposition.) aged to the tradesman, however poor, was e _ as i that 3, ccept in cases of distress for rent or tithes,. 11 b l')11 '" not h- a reformed Parliament—andvoice, too, that - i susult e d aouse that evening, to tell the minister who had again protected. " No, you may tax the Int l it you must not touch the property of to h - "erci ou ~.''aetio n the nl istaken—that a reformed Parliament would not e su slieusion of all law, and would indignantly spurn Would a reformed parliament sit in that pActlea„where a he continuance of these things? He only , ,p• h e w ule. Such was the object he then proposed to himself, peaceable and constitutional remedy was hese things into consideration; and would ' ke y I .llgli ih ..s M uch Ite e i a hA , more anxious to elicit that on the Ist of March this house do to -.0 (le t el , - ,`" Scotch members respecting the proposed despotic the sentiments of the on the tendency and effects of the several a` 1 () WI let • ar d B Ireland of ministers, than express his own. posing the stamp and auction duties." 13 .. .at o a cwt h e understood that if that atrocious measure pass •IN seconded the motion, and expressed ti , rty `, (1. , the people of Ireland will be liable to loss of pro cellor of the Exchequer would repeal the o , ll ' teasv: personal freedom—may be imrisoned at the mere Le had said that he would propose in a rel y i Ily red of the Lord Lieutenant or the Irish Secretary, without I , 1.1, ' toge r t r l 8 whatever, if imprisoned unjustly, for merely meet sea admitted, that the duties of which th e gi 4 a V, it d e r to petition for redress for their grievances. (Hear.) aplained, were heavier on small than large, ~o 4 thi s fPended on the mere caprice of the Irish authorities, Inch there was a less per centage paid in t; rainee„ao religious minds was well worthy of consideration, to mounts. The hon. gentleman would lio ,' l l . thi s ice a strictly religious meeting as incurring the censures was generally observed, because the great I „ I le, if 3 : V * But even these provisions were not all; there was ito avhich these duties referred, were of thef t . 4 ' , aw e %Possible, still more atrocious behind—he meant the th respect to a duty on real property, if on (01 , ‘. 14 r, wr chang i • ng the venue. seen imposed upon it, in the course of a ,b ° „ ( 11'I Ze tiek t l_tlai rose to order. He did not attempt to interrupt eof it would have passed through the 03- tf I,7eottil. "uu• gentleman so long as he confined himself to com he stamp duties were now under consideralt L'' th e .11. upon the general policy of ministers, but would appeal an alteration of them, and he put it to the bas,' Mar e Nut hon. Speaker whether it was not disorderly and the last two years it had been possible 0., r t i!e ci tail s r Y,to the rules and usages of Parliament to allude to the srward? Some of the lower stamp dn ti- l i s ti tise: °` a measure not yet under the consideration of the cab ,• but the scale proposed by the hon• g e e ilf . , ti 1% . o ßlea r .) l object to altogether. Although the sttorres7 „ mar ti,coNaera. had not specified a single detail of any par eavier on the smaller than ey did on the g it alt, ' sah dl; he was merely referrinF to the proposed measures isactions, they could not be said to affect t 4, ,1 4 „ sisters. (" Order," "Chair.' ) ration. (They do.) Perhaps th e y might must ,:%. 4 . 1 ',?_ 1 :E AKER said that the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Wynn) lose if they press on the employers, they' F i n tfi, cil et cs, correct in statiug that nothing could be more dis e employa He did not m ea n t o queitl! ci , t ,tlsa, e Y and raore inconvenient to the despatch of the public the hon. gentleman ' s facts, but the infer .. i ,t' il lath i s e a, than to discuss the details of a measure not yet sub from them. , ' r a liw„, t„,4,,1 ,hefore the house, but the question was, was the ELL said he thought that the noble IRO' 1 1 titdlPPlteablo to the observations of the learned member ie arguments advanced by the hon. ges u id sr a Nii te n• (Hear.) The great difficulty which the chair had made out, he hoped the noble lord wo n act!' Qtt kt od with in discussions like the present was, the drawing tree at once, and not talk of his eleve t - eoun eZti2a, line between general comments on what may have ed he intended to lay on the table of _„th a un d e l olZi• l'iokotter of notoriety through publicity, and what might id by the poor man was equal to the r ni ensh a ej taqat e ‘e a minute criticism of the details or provisions of a le would, however, suggest to the ban' a t, at,/ 1 10 t , 'which, as nut yet before the house, the house can withdrawing his motion for the Pre ° re,. e a roorral)iogni be left to the discretion zance., Much must 'aid at some future time. ado ,, 1,,,ic `,. taste of the speaker himself, and he trusted the ember t° as about to suggest to the hon. member ht kiel t ti t , e rig on. ge 1 ` r 4 eli • °4 th . ' ht h ntleman would have the effect of I substitute for it another, which rais e b o o oft big g th e i learned member for Dublin from throwing him ye his reseliition'prnattaraun put in to 1,..,a1r. (4,Ruard in the remainder of his address. ( Hear, hear.) sr of the house, who would then come prop . 17 1 . 14 th ° "EL 1. said he was sure re,nroof so mildly conveyed abject. , his h etlittli he was hire, if even disposed to forget the rules of debate, hearer conceived that the motion of e. his r were to , a; . 4 ,ine as ,, 4 ,. B uot. Ile would not speak in reference to an/ parti , and straightforward. If they paiPalit i c , - ,: e, Past or prospective, of ministers, but tvould assert mer House of Commons, they w ould a A d e er- sa t ` l e to w 411 occasion when they asked £3,000,000 of the irrupt body. If they were -reformed ln_ re fl tote W - tb e °ll °Y to be intrusted to their management, to there would be a greater show in fay' • 5,.. 0 11, th grouach t on whi c h he refused them his confidence. ,/ •a,o t i. en h ice. niii - d us 7;ry w i t - 0 ,would not confide the public money to any a said, that since he had .had the 11 0 " , clah ° Drorosed to eltange the venue of trial in Ireland. o cair n OP t 'oa l ey rec. r,,.. se, he had made several attempts t filed i4 eh tette which° , What led to the revolutionary riots at Massa. Inagua' ties of taxation that preva s aar, tag, ;.,. cost us Azaerica ? ,He would tell them—a was not the best form in which the -I Or . 4 111.1 '," veaue, They -removed the trial of offenders in Mat ta forward. The answer of the .noble lo e 7 0,1 trop h t i S t ‘ i tS to the mother country,.and the result was the declare sold be satisfactory to the country. 11 , tt re,'„ Otev el f"letieak ilidepeudenee. Something infinitely worse, ouse that, instead cif going into a cornlt se nsf, t fish to t , was i ntended'for the Irish. When they (lid bring the s, they should go into the subject of l l, ta te ') td h _ e asc rial ' l 'Ywhot sort of trammed was their guilt or innocence , observed that the present system of t man lid' u t ?vey s ~e.,rtained? Forsooth, by a majority . of five military pheld much longer, and no other 01 „ta ca ti e j i,Ll,4ed the been two years in the service 4 and have al it than by a thorough revision of it. ,v_yr 0- 1 i7ll, e full age The chat*. in America was only a property tax, and.would continue Wu" of (J A t 11. f a," tlaee, the trial b y j ury w ee retained (hear) ; while fell so heavily and conceal e d the.bene_P fer Or t , tt voial..2 - ed, Ireland there was a (+tinge of venue, with* total Id and his request to the. hon. mewl; fa er la- c,tte.tuiien of trial by jury, (Hear bear.) Was that NO Was w his motion for the present, till fur reartls ti t? When h''' - ' • the lives and liberties .' Pe_ , o Ireland to placing ned. `rig flat v o le or Ireland at the disposal—irresponsible disposal rose and expressed. his hopes th a t 4 e 6 4 ,t o n ensigas or tieutenants, he bad no intention to barn would not withdraw his motion; it e. ,..,5 t , t , the honour of the British army. He knew that a i from expressing his satistactiou t u tat„ u to d r eit ,l . l . lily Bever entered the field—that its officers were as hether right or wrong it was an i ti o ti l d P . , i l . .y,Z In their private relations as high-minded in their mi grievances . prevailed, our ancestors . r _„ e sPj ,otla e duat; but, still they were human beings, liable - to be meney until those grievances had oet.l tje o ,' ',o . .o,iced by all the 'hopes and fears which were the ordinag redressed. It had been said that the IT, i itieli ;.44*1.7!, to'hinnan conduct. Then, think of the situation in a. for Oldham was tinged with inforn ou ss d p s s ,., - at te , coti Y vi ifilki be Plaeaal by the proposed scheme of iron be a valid objection with a reforrac.t.`,., en ce a ire h..ro. They were young and ardent—say three of them , wa s the matter complained of a grif otie o p z2uld Tatenants or ensigns —of course anxious for promotion. `that was the reason for proposing a ',-` t be .1./ sk eay refuse to promote - the views of their commanding e could not see why property should ve t, ts r . ? „ bpi Ai he not regent their doing so by loss of prtnno rcely from one person to another, ; a , ",'„oett s I, e a c ; ',No, a o ,a) He said yes. It / was part of the preroga ixpenses which at present attached to . " . ",f tv" 1 . i",` the .Crown to confer promotion and appoint to gover :ON and Mr. Geoff s: joined in the urglFro t Ia al e h , Ps a and these tribunals would onsequently be liable to • Oldham to withdraw his motion, to wi t ' 'Pccies of apprehension. They would be subject to the at length, assented. ht if STATE OF ZEELAND. NV ri) bi he Committee (if Sapply was then s n the question that the sum of .g3,,u`,; o es, ajesty for the support of certain lam' ' THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD. fear of the loss of interest, and influenced by the hope of re ward; and was it to tribunals so operated upon that English men were disposed to hand over the King's subjects in Ireland, and at the same moment talk of constitutional principles and liberty ? Was it to an English assembly, and in the nineteenth century, that he was speaking when he talked of these things? He did not mean to accuse them of being ungrateful of the ser vices rendered them by the Irish. The people of Ireland had stood by them in the great struggle for reform; would they stand by the people of Ireland in the contest for constitutional freedom? What was it be asked of them ? Inquiry. Let English reformers know the extent of his demands. He demanded that no man should outlaw Ireland at his word—that no tale-bearers should fritter away the constitution of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) He implored them not to introduce despotism into his country, and. deprive her people of every constitutional guard, until at least they granted inquiry, and explained what it was that made a nation guilty. He did not like revolution nor the risk of revo lution all he wanted was, that salutary changes might be made in Ireland ; and if that house were disposed to make those changes, no man would be more ready than himself to demon strate to others that there was no necessity for a repeal. (Hear, hear.) But the measures proposed by government, instead of being salutary to Ireland, would only tend to irritate the country. They were, he believed, brought forward for the purpose of en forcing the payment of tithe. (Hear, hear.) Let but a parish resist the payment,—let there arise any disputes,—a party of dragoons would be sent down, the place proclaimed, and wo be to the man brought before a court-martial for non-payment of tithe ! (Hear, hear.) Let the reformers of England, and those who looked to the abolition of tithes in this country. understand that ! He perhaps should be told that he wanted to protect the midnight murderer. To such a charge his indignation would scarcely permit him to reply; but let any man show himany addition al enactments which would give greater facilities to pre vent or punish those crimes, without entirely destroying the liberties of the country, and he would be most ready to assist in passing them. (Hear, hear.) He had already suggested the appointment of permanent special comniissions; he was ready to go further, apd to make it a misdemeanor, or worse, for any person in a disturbed district to be out of his house at night with out legitimate cause, rovided the offender was tried by a jury of his countrymen and a judge of the land. (Hear, hear.) If any plan for quieting Ireland, - without breaking in on the con stitution, could be shown to him, he was ready to b eive that mea sure his best support. He would go further and say, that the bare fact of being out of a house at night ought to be made a mis demeanour, or worse—(hear, hear,)—but he would not give the power of trying such cases to a court composed of three military officers, but to the judges of the land. He contended that the present system of legal machinery in Ireland was sufficient to restore peace and order, and after the trials under the new mea sure had taken place, would Ireland be pacified? No; but it would produce a contrary effect. Let there be an inquiry, and if the result should be unfavourable, why then she must submit. By doing justice to Ireland, the government of this country would receive the thanks of reformed England, and of Europe also. Let England look to her situation with regard to the rest of Europe. If an insurrection were at this moment to take place in Ireland, what would be the value of the three per cents.? ( Hear, hear.) And let the advocates of economy only consider for a moment how much it would cost to do injustice to Ireland. Let it not be said all over Europe, that England gave Ireland this blow at the very time that she helped her in carrying the great measure of reform. He should sit down in the hope that to-morrow would bring glad tidings to Ireland. Oh 2 let England but do her j ustice, and the hearts of the Irish people would beat with joy and gratitude—a joy and gratitude that would afford Englishmen the highest gratification they could feel as men, and bless them as Christians. (Cheers.) Lord ALTHORP said he was satisfied the house would not at the present moment ask him to follow the bon. and learned gentleman into the question which he had thought fit to bring forward in a most inconvenient and unusual manner. (Hear.) The proper time for discussing the subject would be when the measure came regularly before the house. The hon. and learned gentleman had stated the great evils which would follow in sus pending the constitution, but the question the house would have to decide was this, whether the temporary suspension of the constitution would be worse than to have Ireland in the state she was in. It would be the duty of the house to decide be tween these two evils. If it should be his lot to bring forward a measure such as that to which the hon. and learned gentle man had referred, he hoped that he should he prepared to jus tify it by proving the necessity which existed for its adoption. Of this he was satisfied that he should not introduce such a measure to the house unless he was quite sure that a strong necessity existed for it, and he was also sure that he should not do so without being himself satisfied of that fact. (Hear.) Mr. F. O'CONNOR said that however inconvenient the dis cussion of this question might be to ministers, the inconvenience to Ireland, if the proposed measure were introduced, would be much greater. (A laugh.) Let the government pause before it should be too late. He wished to retain for Ireland, all that now remained—the shadow of her constitution. Colonel CONOLLY said that he felt it his duty to state his views upon the subject that had been brought under the consi. deration of the house by the hon. and learned member for Dub lin, in powerful language of which he was so complete a master, and to admit the entire necessity that called for this enactment. He looked upon these measures as measures of protection, and calculated to free the people from the despotism that at present was exercised over the minds of the people, which prevented the due administration of the law. No man in the provinces of Leinster and Munster could express his opinions without in curring the most awful responsibility, although the house had heard the south of Ireland was in a tranquil state. (Hear.) He knew the state of Ireland, and had a house within ten miles of Dublin, and he was threatened to have it burned down un less he discharged a steward in his employment. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Ile hon. and learned member for Dublin had stated that he had never attended an antitithe meeting, he (Col. Conolly) had sworn informations that the hon. and learned gentleman had attended an antitithe meeting in Leixlip, and was the originator of those meetings, and had advised the peo ple not to pay, although he had pocketed £5O for himself on the occasion. (Hear, hear.) The lion. and learned member had practised an imposition on the house, in talking of his patriot ism for Ireland, and working upon their feelings, under the pretext of humanity. (Hear, hear.) It was most painful to him to expose a countryman. He did not talk of patriotism with the hon. and learned member • he urged the measure, and only regretted it had n o t b ee n adopted sooner; for, as the law stood at present, no man could consider •his life or property safe. (Hear, hear.) Mr. SHELL said, that he was not surprised at the hon. and gallant officer who had stated, that he would support the mea sure in contemplation, and tvho evinced a natural tenderness to the tribunal intended to be established; the hen. and gallant officer had furnished to the house, a strong proof how far it was safe to furnish to so unprejudiced a mind, the power of impri sonment and exile at his discretion. Let the house examine the details of the gallant officer, which was limited to a single threat to burn his house, if he refused to dismiss his steward. He considered that the government had greatly contributed to the evils that oppressed Ireland; would Englishmen act in such a manner to their own countrymen? Would Englishmen act thus towards the people of Yorkshire or Lancashire? No; but Ireland was treated as a province, tied up with the,strength of a tyrant, but which it was tyranous to use. The hon. and learned member then referred to events that took plase in Manchester in 1807, when 1(X),000 men assembled with flags,• when a secret committee was appointed to inquire into the facts connected With those events before the government would be allowed to interfere with the privileges of Britons. On that occasion Lord Grey protested against the-suspension of the Habeas Corpus, "because the law from its peculiar nature was liable to abuse." The hon. and learned .Tentleman concluded, protesting against the measure, as establishing a fatal precedent which might be abused on some future occasion. (Cheers.) Mr.O'CoNNtia. claimed the indulgence of the house to refute an attack that had been most unjustly made upon him during his absence by the hon. and gallant member for Donegal. That hon. member stated that he (Mr. O'Connell) had attended the anti-tithe meeting,at Leixlip, and had advised the people not to pay tithes, and had received £5O for himself. The hon. member said he had sworn information to that effect. This was an act of gross injustice to him (Mr. O'Connell) because if suck informa tions were, they ought to have been -forwarded to the govern ment. (Hear, hear.) He would undertake to prosecute the party Who was guilty of such gross, wilful, and abominable penury. (Cheers.) Colonel CONOLLY said, that he had stated that a meeting, at which the hon. and learned gentleman had attended,.had been held in the house of a tenant of his (Col. Conolly's) own—a man of the name of Herbert, and that there a collection had been made under the head of the O'Connell rent for that gen tleman; and that he (Col. Conolly) had it sworn before him that the amount collected on that day amounted to £sOand upwards. Mr."O'CONNELL said that if it was sworn that he had been at Leixslip on that or any such occasion, he did not hesitate to say that it was gross perjury. He well remembered having attended an anti-union meeting at Leixslip, but as to the story of money being collected at that meeting, or at any at which he bad been present, no greater falsehood had ever been stated, either with (Alt or on oath. (Hear.) Colonel CONOLLY had, understood that on the occasion to which he had referred, that a scaffold had been erected for the reception of the hon. and. learned gentleman, but that he him self was not in the country at the time. (Hear, and a laugh.) Ile had, however, seen the spot on which it stood, (laughter), and he could add that the unfortunate individual whom he had named (Herbert) had actually solicited the rector of the parish to impound his cattle for the tithe, because he (Colonel Cono11v) had declared that he would not receive the rent until the tithe were paid. (Laughter; with hear.) Mr. STANLEY said he would not follow the example of the honourable and learned member for Dublin, in discussing the details of a measure that was not before the house, and might or might not hereafter come under its discusssion. Some parti culars, however, of fact to which the hon. and learned member had adverted, he could not refrain from noticing. The right hon. gentleman then entered upon a statement of the trials at Clon mel, showing the absence both of witnesses and jurors, through intimidation. He challenged the hon. and learned member for Dublin to make out a case that could justify him in accusing the government with any inclination to exercise an undue influence in the selection of jurors; and he (Mr. Stanley) would furnish him with all the documents ; and he would appeal to England and Ireland for a decision. (Cheers.) Mr. RONAYNE said, he could assure the house that measures of coercion would fail of their intended effect in Ireland. The object of that now brought forward in the other House of Par liament, was to try to enforce the payment of tithes. But they were quite mistaken if they thought they could make the people of Ireland submit to such an exaction as tithes—not withstanding' the same measure proposed by his Majesty's government. He condemned the principle of forcing upon the people of Ireland 'an established church foreign to the religion of the country—a thing unexampled in the history of any other country in the world, and the honourable member con cluded by entering his protest against measures which were brought forward to coerce Ireland—measures which would have the effect of creating dissatisfaction instead of producing quiet. (Hear, hear.) Mr. D. CALLAGHAN said he was in Ireland when the King's speech arrived in that country, and it filled the loyal and peace able portion of that country with dismay. The state of Ireland was greatly exaggerated in the statements m a d e by th e Ki ng ' s ministers. In the county of Cork the greatest tranquillity pre vailed, and the exi s ti ng l aw was there fully carried into effect. If the present syste m were continued towards Ireland, it would force upon those who were now doubtful on the subject of repeal, the conviction that such a measure was necessary for the benefit of the country. He condemned in the strongest terms the passing of any coercive measures towards Ireland. Mr. C. O'DwrEa alluded to the King's speech of the last session, and read that part of it whichcommented upon the riots at Bristol, particularly where his Majesty is made to say, that although it was necessary to support the authority of the law, yet that he would never sanction any infringement of the right of petition. This was the language of ministers when ap- plied to Englishmen, for they dare not use any other. The mi nisters speak of the advantage of the Union. Here it is exem plified. One system is to be practised in England, and another was to be, adopted in Ireland. He would give every opposition in his power to any mea s u re of coerc i on being introduced into Ireland. Mr. C. E. STEwART said he was as great an admirer of con stitutional liberty as any member in that house, but if he under stood the meaning of the word "liberty," constitutional liberty could not exist where the laws were paramount. (Hear.) Such liberty could not exist where parties were assembled for illegal purposes by the ringing of bells, the sounding of horns, and lighting of fires. Where the laws could not protect pro perty, and where life was not safe, it was not liberty, but tyran ny in its most atrocious form. In such a state of things it was necessary to have recourse to extraordinary powers, which should be ample and efficient, and exercised in a decided man ner, but only to continue during the emergency which called for them. Mr. M. O'CONNELL thought, from part of the Speech of the honourable member who spoke last, that he had been an Irish member whom he had not known. He said, that that alone was constitutional liberty where the laws were paramount; and it was because liberty existed only where the laws were paramount that they (the Irish members) opposed this measure. With respect to the statem . nt of the right honourable secretary as to the number of persons whose names had been called over at the Clonmel assizes, and who did not appear, it had been the practice to summon on the long pannel three times as many Jurors as were likely to attend, and it was well known that for 2s. or 2a. 6d. the summons would not be delivered. The right honourable gentleman should have stated how many were actu ally summoned, and whether any of the persons wso had been called on the first list were called on the second. Mr. Hoy (as we understood) said ministers would now see that all their efforts to conciliate by lopping off half the bishops in Ireland, would be of little effect. (Hear.) He would support the measure of Government, because he was plac e d i n a dilem mahe must either sustain the law by having recourse to the measure in question, or permit riotous proceedings to be the law of Ireland. He owned, however, that these measures came with a bad grace from his Majesty's ministers, who, when out of office, were always exclaiming against such measures. Mr. HUME entered his protest against the remark of the noble lord, that this was not the proper time for discussing this subject—that it was inconvenient and unusual to discuss it at the present time. But this was the proper time, when the house was voting money, to see whether those to whom they were voting it were taking a constitutional course. lie had.never in his life witnessed so humiliating a situation as that of his Majesty's ministers, who, in changing their seats in that house, had so completely changed their opinions. (Hear, h e a r .) This was not to be considered an Irish question alone, it was of importance to England, for it showed we were cut off from every hope of relief. There was nothing would do but remov- Wihat bane of Ireland, the church, altogether. (Hear, h ear .) What was the use of a church if it be not productive of peace and good-will ? The people of England were called upon to wage war against Ireland in order to support the law, as he was told, but which was a war against liberty ; and ho told the peo ple of England to look to themselves. It was to be a means of raising up the estimates • not a single man would be dispensed with ; no expense would be reduced. He (Mr. Fiume) had on former occasions declared that Ireland was kept in the situation of a conquered people, and now we were to wage war against them to support that blot of Ireland—its church establishment. (Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL could not help rising to notice the extraor dinary and violent attack of the hon. member who spoke last: With regard to a change of opinion, which the hon. member thought so disgraceful, be declared, for himself and his col leagues, that he knew of no change of opinions amongst them. When consistency of opinions was spoken of, he assumed that general consistency of opinion and line of conduct was meant; and in this they discovered no change. The hon. member for ANdlese.x had seemed to suppose that they (the ministers) had declared for the destruction of the church of Ireland; but they bad made no such declaration, and the hon. member had no right to call upon them to agree to plans which they had never adopted. As to the passage which had been read from a speech of his (Lord John Russell's) regarding Ireland, in which he said that the system of law in that country was suited to Austria or Prussia ; in the beginning of that very speech he said that he considered the Insurrection Act by no means an act that was not at times necessary; and he could give a proof of that being his opinion, because, when that act was introduced into the House of CoMmons, he was a member, and he did not op pose it. (Hear.) But there was an occasion, in the year 1621, on which he thought it was not necessary, and therefore felt bound to oppose it ; but he was not thereby precluded, on all occasions, from considering whether such a measure was ne cessary, upon deliberating, as a member of Parliament and a minister of the Crown, on the policy of adopting, as the least of two evils, a temporary suspension of the liberties of the laud, as a means of restoring the peace of the country. And if he had been an advocate of religious liberty, he did not mean that religious liberty which permitted a person by violence to deprive another of the power to act according to his own discretion; and if he was a Protestant, to take his tithes to a Protestant clergyman, at the risk of having his house burnt and his family destroyed. He should say nothing more about his inconsistency, but that he denied the justice of the hon. member's phillipic. He recommended him not to indulge in a strain so unsuited to him, but in future to keep himself to those economical ques tions, in which he certainly appeared skilful, for when he rose, as he sometimes did, to these flights, he reminded him of a cer tain hero in the Dunciad, who was represented climbing to the top of a lighter, in order to take a plunge, and of whom it was said that— " Gaping crouds his wond'rous skill admire, " Who, but to sink the deeper, rose the higher." Mr. Fire strongly deprecated the measures which it was in tended to apply to Ireland. The resolution was then read_a second time, and agreed to. TUESDAY. ELtCTION PETITIONS against the returns for the city of Londonderry and the boroughs of Clonmel and Montgomery, were ordered to be taken into conikteration on the 91st of March ; against the returns for the town of Southampton, .and the borough of Rippon, to he taken into consideration on the 26th of March ; a petition complaining of the return for Coventry, on the 26th of March; a petition complaining. of the return for the south division of Northumberland, on the 28th of March ; a petition complaining of the return for Portarlington, on th e 28th of March ; a petition complaining of the return for Carrickfergus, the 28th of March ; a petition complaining of the return for Mallow, the 2d of April ; two petitions complaining of the return for Galway, the 2d of April ; a petition complaining of the return for W eymout h and Melcombe Regis, the 6th of AlAril. PETITIONS were presented against the stamp (Mies, from certain solicitors of Dublin, by Mr. SHAW ;--bv the same bon. member, from he Protestant conservative society of Ireland, graying that the quali. . fication of members of Parliament, might be raised and strictly en forced ;—for the abolition of sinecure places and pensions, the repeal of the duty on hops and soap, a modification of the corn laws, an ex tension of the sufirage, vote by ballot, and triennial Parliaments, from certain persons employed in the Carron iron -works, by Mr. GuLow ; —for vote by ballot, from members of the Warwick political. union, by an hon. MEMBER unkn own i n th e ga ll er y ;—from the householders of the city of London, assembled at Guildhall, by Mr. GROTE :—for a n duction of the duty on soap, from Kincardine, by-Mr. Hymn ;—for the immediate abolition of negro slavery, from seven different places in the county of Fife, by Mr. JOHNSTON ;—from the clergymen of Ash burton, by Mr. WILKES ;—from. Stockton-on-Tees, by Mr. Pease ;-- from Perth, by Ms. OLIPHANT ;—for some legal provision to enforce, the better observance of the Sabbath, from Wisbeachby.Mr. Tow LEY, the prayer of which was supposted by Capt. Yorke ;—from a Larish in Suffolk, by Sir G. GREY ;—from a place in Derbyshi re , b y ord WATERPARK ;—from Broadstairs, in Kent, by Mr. PLI;MPTREE ; from a religious congregation in Scotland, by Mr. MACKENZIE. Mr. COBBETT observed, that petitions of this nature <same from Ta rious Protestant congregations, but it was somewhat singular that none proceeded from Catholics. Mr. O'CONNELL.—Yet no class of Christians were so strict as to the attendance at divine worship as the Catholics. Indeed, it was deemed a mortal sin for a Catholic to absent himself from divine worshie. Mr. Kismocii said that he altogether doubted the wisdom or pro priety of bringing in a bill on this subject. At all events, if well bill should at all tend to interfere with the innocent amusements of Hsi people, he for one would never consent to itt. (Cheers.) Sir A. AGNEW said, that the object of the bill, of which he had given notice upon this subject was to protect every Man in exercise of his conscience upon the Sabbath-day. Mr. COBBETT observed, that the laws already in existence fully pro. vided for the object of the petitions. Were the laws on the subject to be made more strict than they were at present, he was quite satisfied that much mischief, instead of benefit, would be the result. An hon. Member said, that there existed a very general desire on the part of the trading community, who were impeded in the execu tion of their religious exercises, to have some measure enacted f or en forcing the better observance of the Sabbath. He was convinced that if something of the kind were not speedily done, evil consequeness would result from the prevailing laxity in this particular. Mr. Gittos thought that the attention of the house could riot' be too soon called to the subject. Mr. WARBURTON said that the object of the committee appointed last year ought to have been to preserve to the labouring classes ih k a, hours which were necessary not only . to amusement but to health. Sunday was the only day in the week in which the inhabitants inse neral of this smoke-dried metropolis could enjoy the fresh air. He, for one, should move for the reappointment of that committee, and he believed that additional evidence of importance could be adduCed. Mr. HUME observed, that any person who would take the trouble to read the evidence of the Bishop of London would be perfectly satis fied that the subject required no further legislation. Mr. O'CONNELL was sure that piety would never be increased by act of Parliament, nor the love of God by penal enactments. He thought the afternoon of Sundays should be set apart for the recrea tion of the labouring classes of the community. Mr. Wi Win recommended the reappoiatnieut of the committee, SZ said that its object was not correctly understAmtl by honourable mem, hers if they thought it was directed to the abridgment of the enjoy ments of the working classes. , Lord ASHLEY said that, as one who sat on the committee last year, he must contend that the object the members of that committee had. in view was not the abridgment of the amusements of the labouring classes, but the protection of the conscience of the fair trader, in con sequence of the advantage taken of him by those who had no scruple to work on Sundays. The petitions were severally ordered to-lie on the table, GRAND JURIES (IRELAND.) Mr. STANLEY, after presenting two petitions from places in Ireland, praying for the revision of the Grand:Jury system, proceeded to bring forward the motion of which he had giVen notice on this subject. For the information of English mem bers, he would quote from the report-of the committee upon the subject of grand juries in Ireland a description of the systeni. The right hon. gentleman then read a. passage, which stated that the Irish grand juries were intrusted with the civil.adminis tra.tion of counties, having to defray the expense of !the: police force, the maintenance of prisons, &c.,—that they had the power of directing public works, such as the-making of roads,- and: the building and repairing of bridges to be undertaken, ind . !of ap pointing persons to execute .them,—that they levied the -taxa tion which was necessary to defray the expenses incurred fur these objects from the occupants of the laud, the collectors of which were armed with the sovereign power of distresis; This short statement would show English members the broad points of difference between the Irish grand juries and the grand ju ries of England. It had long been acknowledge,4 that grant( jury taxation in Ireland pressed most heavily pn the industri ous claSses of the community. The principal objections to the grand juries in Ireland might be stated as follows that they were nut acquainted with the practical details of the woiks to be undertaken ; 2d, that they were without responsibility, and uncontrolled by the check of public opinion in the charge of their duties; and, lastly, that the system afforded op portunities for corrupt, practices. Unfortunately, he might say that it was not uncommon for a gentleman in y lreland, by his interest with a grand jury, t 2 get them to sign a presentment for the making of a road, or the execution of some other public work, un or near his estate, and then to appoint his own la bourers, or inferior tenants, to perform the work, by means of whose wages thos obtained he was able to get.a better Tent for his land than he otherwise could procure. (Hear, hear.) ..Two years ago he had int ro d uce d a b i ll f or conso lid a ti ng 'the laws relating to grand juries, which were to be found in an immense number of statutes. On the present occasion he would pursue a different course, by making the alterations first, and consoli dating the laws hereafter. This was no party question, (Heat', hear.) . He was free' to admit that it would be desirable, it' practicable, that a more general system of grand jury represen tation should prevail, but on inquiry he found the circumstances, local and otherwise, of each county in Ireland were so different, that a general system of representation was hardly practicable. He proposed, howeVer, to make a considerable step towards it, by making it mandatory on the high sheriff—the officer iu whom the selection , of grand jurors was vested—to begin his list with one juror from each barony in the county, the num ber to be filled up afterwards according to circumstances. Then, a great and frequent complaint of the grand jury system in Ireland was the'secrecy in which it discharged its functions. He proposed as a remedy that every presentment should he openly and publicly discussed in open court—(hear)—that the grounds of its being adopted or rejected should be openly dis cussed and canvassed before the assembled county. Hear, hear.) With respect to the separate consideration of such pre sentments is would be chargeable on the county at large, and such as would be chargeable on particular districts or baronies, he would propose that on a fixed day all the magistrates should meet in special sessions, for the purpose of determining the merits of presentments, and that such as should be negatived in this special sessions should be considered finally disposed of, while those approved of should wait to be confi r m e d by the grand jury : Hon. members would perceive that this was an approi illation to the English system; indeed he trusted that in the pro. gross of society in Ireland the government would be enabled to assimilate the systems of both countries in every particular. His plan would obviously' giVe the grand jury a confirming power over presentments,—and of course a negativing one,— but not the power of reconsidering a presentment which had been negatived at special sessions. His next provision would, he persuaded himself, be felt to be a salutary improvement on -the present Irish grand jury system, by giving the class of farmers and higher rate-payers, who were daily increasing in wealth, intelligence, and influence, a direct control over the public expenditure in their respective districts. He proposed that, one of this class should be chosen from each barony, or half-barony, as it might be, to sit with and assist the magistrates in disposing of the district presentments (hear,) and that they should not be less in number than half of the members of the grand jury present, (Hear.) He had stated that the proceedings of the grand jury should in future be conducted with the utmost pubti city . (hear,) and that with them should lie the determining the expediency and cost of public works. As a supplement' to this salutary provision of publicity be proposed that the grand jury-should be compelled to accept of the lowest tender to carry a presentment into effect, provided it afforded the necessary security. (Hear.) This led him to the question, was the prin. ciple of contract the best for executing these county public works? He had consulted very many Irish members oo the subject, and, amidst the greatest contrasts of opinion on .sou l o points, found they ad agreed in-declaring that the contract system was the best. (Hear.) He, therefore, would adopt He would perfect the machinery of control over the county expenditure by the appointment of an officer in each county— an engineer, to be approved of by a body of engineers, whose responsible duty it would be to attend the special sessions and. the grand juries, and report on the expediency, cost, and pre. gross of the several works in the county. (Hear.) Instead of the present absurd system of oaths, no money should be paid till this scientific officer had certified that the work had been completed in a workmanlike manner (hear,) and no work should he undertaken at the public cost until he had reported on its expediency. (Hear.) By this means the actual work. Man would have the advantage of a scientific overseer, and the country would at a little cost be assured against a useless expenditure of its money. (Hear.) It was, perhaps, unnecesary to - add that this officer should, of course, have no local inttrest —say as a contractor—to promote, and,- of course,. no interest whatever in the work he should have to report upon, Another provision of his intended bill appeared to him OM of no little Importance—he meant that by which the county cess would be levied, pot, as at present, on. the occupier, but the landlord. The bill would also contain provisions under which no payment should be paid for county work unless in money, not in goods, and that the accounts should be open at all times to the county surveyor, whose accounts, again, should be open to the grand jury. Though the office of county treasurer did not properly fall within the scope of the bill, he had ventured to guard against the present undeniable abuses to which it hail given rise, (discounting, and trafficking, and jobbing with the county money, for example,) .by proposing .a clause trpder