The Sun. — London, England, 1817-03-01 00:00:00

;!,; A,l , „" T , i , ;they were considered, he d nOt ! luhr 111;111 could deny 'the otev?- Y flit: proposed ineasnre. As to (he it till'. the esilting laws were adequate, be 7: t!ley hal hen uteri sufficient to cri is h t h e 4 E 5' "14 ivhicl i `broken out, could , hecituse the chief teason the of the Rill .Iv,is founded was this—th'ilti 'vere ()Gliders nliom the existing. laws con"' 11e mgued, that the power which the,, aid give.migiit he safely entrusted to -\"- >is they were responsible to the [louse for _hers, and e s the r Bill +ens o n ly t o COO - Ice tin 14 end of the Session. Thiritos Veil not allow the House to , te on a sulijt'o so materially concerning '".` l D i' the ihjeet without expressing his uliou that the exi,[ii,g dangers were slake this NI iibsolutely nece s s ar y f or 't the country. The Hon. Gentl to eman speak for some time lotv t ' as' t e ' of !onclutled with obse rv i n illy l ooked g, that the up to G overnment for all he thought it impossible such a I be enforced, it Ministers were not as for the good of the (immy. oN felt induced on this particular .ar himself and his friends on that !Mow n from the unmanly insinuation !Mown out,, that those Who dis stets on this question might [(OS.* if they were not coocerned in at shewn itself.--(No, 111), was glad to hear it dis"- 'ght, however, that this was a udd Only be justified by the wrious necessity. -The degree to he estimated by the de le could not agree with those m the Report, which did ap ain facts. But since then, evidence had been ten- Live shaken the atithori- Ile was willing to make, iere were conspiracies on if not the safety of the of some districts. It" was lint they did exist ; but \t had means enough in Brig theni, without im however, the existence of bad been made out to the Committee, the inquiry 'gilt to have clone ? As first instance, as soon knowledge, to hare bad remedies ; they ought . mem, anti to have put Did they do this ? So 'total to lie dormant, er as if they wished to mot. This was a sys 'lto had maintained a of peace, and-set their enehment. Govern itself in the minds qtl those reasonable lemanded from one ler. He %you'd ask known fact, that use who had pro nig -since shown in associations to irs to an extent al e only act of dis bad been quelled were miw the benefit of the by Jury. It was tel that the Con slighted, as till' never been 'sus 'e- safety of the Gentleman pro coition; ison be -7 and in 1794 ; he bead of the entrusted with aid place iii his )t to be h urried haste. It was in France i•had filled all 'ever eh-emu s measure in to justify it Committee, th e y might the general e led Mini of culling' iriod. Cie have Mol t)°, when the same lent to be put into it, cx situation person ; var, re Change, Europe 1 when naking to the lot say , but ;erous iress rbed, isteri - ions sighs ind. that Sir ran If It h oi been so mt 1 ,1.11 ;trgut'd opnn criticised, by tinlught those who trAmed it wer.l not houml to enter into a, rnitone ; defence of it ;: but when they were charged witk.putting absur dities into it, it ought to be known on what ground such a charge rested. Those who under took to state evidence, were surely boomd not to garble it. Thus, if.the'facts about the intentions of seizing the bank, bursting the barracks, and de steoying the bridges had been withheld, and it had afterwards been necessary to allude to it, it might haie been said, ," This is not the pint of the conspirators ; you must have made it, or you would have introduced it into the Itenort' (Hear, hear; hear !)—Ent it was not on this part of the Report, nor on any plot or conspiracy, or design,, that he should found the y:ote he mean; to give,' but on the general situation of the coun try. There was 31 general dispositionamoui;st the members of the Hampden, the Spenceani . and similar Clubs, to carry their designs into elreet by force ; and the country was in such a state, that by means of leaders, very serious distnrhaue,e 3 might.he produced. It was impossible to overlook the activity of the delegates who go front part to part; .dispersing tracts and exciting disturbances. He believed that the measure before the House was.of the Itiltest possible consequence, to pre l . vent and imimidate those persons from coming forward to put themselves at the head of the dis 7 a'ffeeted, The ordinary course of the law might be sufficient, it the law were suffered• to take its course ; but he believed it to be:stopped and ar rested, by the system of threats an.l menaces which intimidated jurors aml other_publie autho rities, which those persons kneiv, by former oc currences, were not idle and vain, but would be carried into certain mid bloOdy execution. After the Bill had passed, he trusted we shOuld hear very little more of treasonable practices ; but it was his opinion that it would tend to the true happiness and prosperity of the country, nits! lie should be - very happy to, bear his share of any ap plause or any odium that might :result f r ura Lord FoutsToNs thought such sentiments most extraordinary indeed, as coining from_a Member , of the Committee who was in the habit of oppos ing Ministera. But he must express his abhor tenee of the grounds'on wlrich the Hon. Gentle man had rested his opinion of the necessity of, the measure. Ile thought the House had reason to complaiteof.what he bad stated, that he should not rest his vote on any thing contained in the Report, but on his view of the general state of the country:. lie had been in the habit of con- . veiling with Gentlemen out of the House, and he bad never heirrd of this horrible state of the coun try. IVby was the House to be amused with a ridiculous plot which was over two months ago,l But, supposing the case to he as' the [lon. Gentle-' man described it, how 'was the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act to remove it ? He_protested against the measure, as one intended t l B date .the people; and it this were the view of Nli nisters, he would say they had dealt infaMonsly by the country. Tire fact seethed to have been let out at last, chat the measure was to intimidate the people. He called on the House to pause, and give the country time to send In Petitions, and to enable the Lord Advocate to come to an ex planatii-m, which he had not done yet , respecting the state orStanland. The Noble Lord proceed ed to argue on there.being no compitrison between the state of the country in 1794 ainfatt present. He contended that the meeting of Reformers in Spa-fields had nothing - to do with the riot, and that the people ought to be soothed and encou raged. He saw no evidence in the Report, of the peOple being about to proceed by force, to such outragevas should entail on them such a scourge. The ,greater part of the Report was a history of what had passed tinder the eyes of Ministers two or three months ago ; and 'where was their vigour that had been so much talked-of ? mite' ted to 'the Act of 1812, which, he contended; was ,mite strong enough to answer any purpose requited at the present time ; as it went to suppress onlaw- • foil Societies, and to make the administering of unlawful ,oatlis punishable witlt death, and the taking of them punishabie by transportation for life. He beseeched the [loose not to go on in this track ofaittacking the liberties of the people any longer, as it was a urost ilatigelOOS Rod mis chievous one, and they would sacrifice their duty most' woefully illheiproceeded to read the BM a third time that night. Mr. Lama and Lord FOLKSTON:B explained; The LORD ADVOCATZ Of SCOTLAND said; that in all the.preceding acts for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus, front the time' 'of the union 01 England with Scotland, a clause was introduced in the' very same terms as was to "be found in the present Bill. In 1715, 1722; and 1795, the Law Officers who then sat in that noose meant Co put the people of Scotland out of the pale of the law as much as the people of England. -A Petition had been presented to the House by a person of the name of Mr. Arthur, stating', that one of the Officers of Justice in Scotland had been guilty of some oppressive acts, had afterwards received a pension from the Crown ; but he wished the House to remember, that an Honourable Mem ber, Who was now. no more (Mr. Horner), bad expressed a very favourable opinion of that Judge; and, surely, all who considered the conditct of that Houourahle Member---;all who reflected on': his strict - integrity and teany virtues,- both in public and private life-.-all' seloi dwelt on the great benefits which' Scotland haul derived from his abilities and, attachment to the public in terests----all who flattered themselves, and most justly so, with the exception that England would derive the. most essential benefits from his. patrio tism and talents, (here Sir Samtiel Romilly ap peared to be deeply affected); would ctsneur in the opinion, that nothing criminal or injurious 'to;the reputation of that Judge could have been ein mitted, or the Hoodurable Member to whom lie had alluded would not have suffered it to escape his censure. Sir S. Rostiet,t: rose merely to make one or two observations on what had fallen from the Learneul'Lord, from whoM lie had the . mistortmle to differ with respect to, the acts avhich ineholed _Scotland. He had said, on a former night,' that 'the clause in question was,not to befoandiii the act of 1794: be had never Said that it wai not to, be fOund in any of the preceding . acts. It' was Certainly not to be found in the act of 1744. Vr • • T1,:3, 11 , t- - .ver, was, a matter of .very snglit Im pott:MCC : ; tbe. tprevion was,nol. What was, done in 101111CF.i 1111e9, brit•.what was to ; be done now. Lie e ntreated the 11nnse to pause, .nod not. to suffer at!.'y Judge or Magistrate to take -tiny 'man into inistpdy ivithout ,the order of LMajesty's Privy Council, 6igned by six Privy Councillors. This clause only referred to soar as bad been comm i tte d under a warrant from the Secretary of State.; . Mr.,I i oNSONEY fibserveir, that the Learned Lord ctiald have no objection to clearing iris the diffi culty, which did !rot prevail with •regard to the Scotch. Acts of .1701 and 174 , 1, against wrongous inipmu onient. :As the ,clause was at present worded, it would I),:,‘r many constructions directly opposed to each wher,w . hielt could not be decided ninru :icier the pa,sing of the Bill, but by a Court of Justice.. Sir A ‘I'tGooTT ►slat-' reprobated the .obscurity and a►nbiguity with witic`► the .clause was framed. It this law were to,be inflicted upon the people, they ha►l at- least a right to expect- that it should be clear and precise. In artier that the.diflicultY might he rensuved, he recomniended that the Bill should'he recOmmitted. - . The.Sreaxeit. remarked,. that in the present stage the Bill could not be recommitted. ; Any amendment might be introduced after the third reading. . • Sir A. Ptaccti•T then proceeded to state his opi nions generally ,npoti the measure before the llonse. He watildatot go so far as tons', that he approver' of every phrase in the Report of the Secret Committee; but after mature cooside,ration as a whole, it met with his entire and hearty con currence. He had his:coed to the arguments of some and to the taunts and sneers of others; but his opinion was the More confirmed the more he reflected %loon the nature of the evidence upon which that Report was founded. He did not shrink front this declatation, because he hefty it:t a be a public dins; and, in his judgment, Minh ters would have been liable to the severest cen . sures, had they'not made' the communication to the, House that led to the appointment of the Comt»ittee.—(llear!)—So far front the Report being an exaggerated statement, lie was rather inclined to think that it scarcely went as far AS the evidence would warrant. As to the disclosure of • that. testimouy,, the Committee bad wisely deter mined not to publish it ; and although much of it • was liable to contradiction, yet it was not to be : expected that a Committee, not administering an oath, should obtain information with . all the guards of judicial proceedings. The objection that the evidence was not annexed to the,Report, was rather an objection to the, nomination of u Committee at all ; since the wit nesSes; if it had beep deemed prudent, might . have been examined ht the bar of the House.— The evils were certainly neither. light nor trivial, and, on account of their importance, he rea dily gave his support to the' Bills upon the .table for the suppression of secret associations, for the prevention of the seduction of the' army and ii ivy, and for the protection of the person of the Pi i , ice Regent ; but these Securities were all he consider ed necessary, and,therefore be most strongly pro tested ,agaiust the proposed suspension, of the Habeas Cor p us Act : that measure, the HOUSe wou ld recollect, was not llireeted Against any particuine %..r against any particulae piace boi it deprieed equally all classes of the King's subjects of their jolt rights, a n d confound ed the innocent With the guilty: Was it pretended, that a single individual ot property or Conse quence had been concerned with these miserable. wre tch e s ? Or could, it be argited, that dread of coMmunications between insurgents and foreign hostile powers justified the suspension, which wa's not only disproportioned,th, -but not tut all cab:it . listed to meet the evil ? One Hon. Gent. (Mr. Lamb) had indeed supported it for a reason never before urged, that - reason. was not only extraordinary in itself, but still mote extraordinary from its want of the slightest tontulationiil truth. He said that the suspeosion—this -111 , above the law—was requir ed, beCause the- progress of the ordinary law was arrested by the present state ot the country,. This was a pore imagination., Where, in the Report, would .any statement be found to justify such an assertibu : upon *what peculiar evidence, in his exelosive possession, did the• Hon. Gentleman fintii.l his bold assertion ?—(Hear, bear!)—We were now upon the very eve ot the Spring Assizes; ,the 3 uttge§ were about to open their Commissions; 'and yet- they were to be told that all was in vain, .for the progress of the law was arrested, and there was an emi of all justice and its admi . nistrittion. The Report confined the disthrhances to certain Districts, and the evidence warranted that con elusion, but the remedy was to- : apply , to the whOle,Nation ; and became it few active Dema gogues had misled sonic` manufacturers and arti zatis,. agricultural labmirers, and all other peace ful classes,, were to .be pot out of the pale of the law: It was vii(mgh for hial that this extraordi nary power Was capable of abuse : be did not ask Who were the •Ministers; but be would fearlessly stateithnt mother circumstances like the present, he would intrust such ,unlimited and uneontroul, able authority' to no Ministers. True it WaS, that unlawful associations existed ; but was it to be now said, .aijd to be established as a precedent, that whenever it could be ,proved that a Secret Club, however' Olaf eMptible, had been frirtried s the tottering weakness of an 'Administration ,was to be holstered op by a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act.—(Hear !)----Convinced as lie was, that ninety-tune hundredths of the population were well-disposed to onell the one :hundredth who m i g h t b e ill-disposed, he woold. .by , rot tag , for this Bill, subject 'himself - to the reproaeh of, having aidtd in this new and nowarraait 'able attack upon the Constitution. The ATToßNKYrtifVigl,CBt- ittldressea the House (rim% is strong sense. of duty; not because he felt peculiarly competent to the task, tidying, for not . less than sixteen limas', been engsiged in nroeur. ing thg first cOoyiCtiOn country for an offence against the law for the abolition ot the ,hive trade. Altlsougr,h same Honourable Gentle man - out the other side Of'ilie House were so strenuous in.refusiog::thismecoltary powerto any Minister; yet it I is nteniory did not tail Mai, our neestOtS hail not less than' nine Cones conseo red to . a Suspension of the Haberii:Corptii 'Act. The question was, whether the state of affairs at pre sent just:fied n revition : a•id Itr hi, judetrient there never had been a period our hkrory;vjieu such an awful roinhin,i'!iou: of theumstanees de manded .that the EXecinivb Government should be anted with additional authorite.- The Right fitinourable,Gentlemiart Who...spoke last, andothee Members of the CannuitieeWho usually Sat' on the other side of the spouse, had vindicated MiniSters froris the absurd hare that they were the con;- trivet's of these plots, and- the pretnoters these clubs, for their own private - perposes : at least, those Gentlemen, with their high. talents and excellent dkeernment; had been mtide the dupes of this bilmbug, if.it herd even beet at tempted ; for, after the fullest inquiry, they Were convinced of the real singers to which t'e country was exposed. Surely the infamous and blasphemous oath which a Learned Lord (the Lord AdvoCate) had produced on a former night, and which the Committee had excluded from their Report, on. account of the danger to, which the witttessea'ould be exposed, was a sufficient proof of the extent to which disaffection had'been car ried.. In ordinary tittles, the old law against high treason might be sufficient ; hut these were not ordinary times ; and theliills in progress for the supprevion of associations, and 'to prevent the seduction of tl e. defenders of their country, of themselves established the fact. If they were in sufficient, he appealed to the other measure for the protection of the person of the Regent, not front secret plots, not from constructive treasons, hut frotn direct assassinations.—(llear, hear; and No, no !)—The. Bill was upon the table, and its title would'beSt explain its object. It was complained by some,:that this Suspension.placed all the Sub jects of the ( - :owri at the mercy of the Minister ; but the provisions disproved"the statement ; -and, although the trial of an offender might by its Means be 'delayed; it was nothing more than was frequently' done on the absence of a material witness. One Right nonotirable Gentleman had avowed, that 'under no circumstances would he place such an instrument in'the hands of any Mii nisters.—(No, no !)-1-le.n as glad to hear that lie was mistaken, for it was time such an argu ment should be abandoned and exploded. Those who were at all acquainted .with the practice of the criminal law must be aware, that the ordinary law against treason was luttch in favour of. the criminal ; that certain forfils must tie observed by the Prosecutor ; and that two ni,:nesses were rea quired to the ,Overt Act :, this rendered con' icm tions always difficult ; and in the case of the trai tors recently, arrested at Glasgow, certain delays allowed by this Bill might be extremely benefitial to the cause of justice in snore ways than one": although many were apprehended,• did it follow that all were secured : or might there not still be some arch-traitor concealed, who would be able to take advoutAge of the information, if a speedy trial were to he had ? With regal d to those who were in confinement in London, be was happy to Lty, that probably no procrastination would he iv , cessary in their cases.; 'at least to this he would pledge,hiniself, that inn tote half hour should be wasted between their arrest and their deliverance,. (Hear, dteAr !)—lt: hail been said, that the Liw Ofticers . of the Crown bad been aft ard to do their duty. The Solicitor• General bad repelled the im putation with the scorn it merited ; and, for hitn self, he (tire Avoeney-General) would say, - that the only tear he had ever entertained- was,, lest he should be guilty of a dereliction of his duty, and not execute it as became tire important trust reposed in him. Jr was impossible for him to file an information without lorVing satisfactory evidence.. of treason ; but though such evidence could not be produced, it did not follow that, when so much acktiowlediged danger existed, a new law should not be passed to meet n new emergency. He could assure the House, th it he had not slumbered in Iris duty ; and that as far as power extended he had cxereiSed-it. He had not been inattentive to those' iibeilons publi• cations which for some 'weeks past had de luged all parts of the country. He had now. in his pocket a most shocking and blasphe mous libel', which be bad received that very' r day from Norwich, It Was a most horribly pro fane parody of the'Crced.—(Cries of read, read !) : Ire owed it to the dignity of that House not to insult it with the reading of so abominable n libel: he shoal , ' feel it his dirty to conceal it till the matter Caine regularly before a Court of Justice ; and he woidd then take care that it I should be read only once, and that for the techuieal purpose at comparing it with the record.--(Hear, hear !)--4f,- however, any gentleman had u curio sky to read it, he would seal its tortteots in a paper, and leave it on the table of the Hotise,— (Heat., hear, hear !)—He could assure the Honie, that he hiid not been inattentive to his duty there was no one case. which Came in that shape that lie enniel have brought arty person to jtidgment onAt, before the present titre, end'it welchl be too ranch to say, that he could have prevented the Spa fields Meeting, or the riot 'that eniued from it. Some Gentlemen- hail thought proper to throw ridicidtt On the Spa•fields plot they had langlica at tire ammunition-stocking ; and asked bow a bridge, a Waterloo-bridge,'eould b ., e blown UP:;Vithritit sap pers or mineri. Ht~ did not believi ihnt much nnsch'el esuld,have been done, but ii did believe that. there wetepersonS who edleavottred to per suade other's that they could do all the mischief which they .underfook to dri. Nor were those leaders themselves despicably Orme(' : and they' had takt. care to proVide arins for` others, by their intimation that gatOmiths and pa wnbrokets shops' thereto be broken tro , tt: Heeertainly was not acre Of those who it that they could have ctfectiki their evil litirpose• lie should he an audit adviser of the CroW“ 'll lrt could trait been 'frightened into sottoreasonaltlen syfjtitcj iriotr ; bat he wtinhl ask, . was . it nothing to trove alarmed the , Whole Metro poiis ) - WaS #t oath ing that ought have been dune, if tires had sallied forth in tire ui~.itr, it Iron the C:tlien3 were peaceably in their beds Anti wall it trot confessed .hy 041 ,the rioter's t.terse.lV es, that a premature rashnets - baddeteated cur pose It was said that-the present Eifel:lsolV tVOIIII excite •01trat. He really believed that no honest man throthorttthe kingdorn w n o would sleep i c nseiorernesi of setutity, though rwartv a ti Want wonht he ioduced to desist from his rill designs. (I tern. I) Lord. G. CAtErsolsn replied to several of the principal arginuentt of the last Speaker. Hecoull