The Sun. — London, England, 1806-06-17 00:00:00

LAIPERIAL PARLIAMENT, HOUSE OF PEERS. MONDAY, JUNE 16 The House proceeded farther in the Appeal " Gra ham v. the Countess Dowager of Glebcaira,"-during which Lord ELLENBORRUGH •-sat for the LORD CHANCELLOR. Mr. Grant was beard for the Ap pellant, and the Lord Advocate of Scotland partly for the Respondent. The further hearing was post poned till,to-morrow. - Mr. GRAHAM, Mr. PYM, *Mr: STANLEY, Lord CHARLES MANNERS, Mr. LYGON, and several other Members of the House of Commons, brought up several private Bills; which were read a,first time. mr. Owen, froM the.}a - st India House, presented several Papers pursuant to an Order of the House; which were ordered to lie on the Table. Lord GRENVILLE gave notice,' that he should bring forward his Proposilions relative to the Judica ture of Scotland, on. Wednesday next, for which day the Lords were ordered to. be summoned. • Lord AU6KLAND observed, that as a measure was almnt - to be brought before Parliament for Increasing cettlin Allowances to Seamen, it was necessary that their Lordships should be in possession of informa tion-upon the subje& when it came under discus-, sion in that House. He therefore moved for several Accounts relative to the Revenue of'Greenwich Hos pital, and the Chest at Greenwich; which were or dered. • The ;rich - Malt Duty Bill and the Chelsea Allow ances Bill were ,read a second time, and committed for tb-morrow:' Adjourned till to-morrow (this day). 'HOUSE OF COMMONS. MONDAY, JUNE i 6 ., - Sir JOHN SINCLAIR brought up the Repolt of the Committee on the Forfeited Estates in Scotland.— Ordered. to lie on the Table, and to be. printed. Mr. Meheux, from the India Board, presented Papers, pursuant to Orders of the House.--Ordered to lie on the Table. . -,.The Scotch Distillery Bill was read a second time, and, ordered -to be committed on Wednesday. The Land Tax Commissioners : Bill was read a second time, and ordered .to be committed this day • se'nnight, . The Gibraltar and . ..Malta Postage Bill was bronght up, read :kfirst, and ordered to be read a second time to •morrow. The Duke of Grafton's Agreement Bill, and the Prussian yarn Bill were brought 13p, read a first, and Ordefed to be read a second time to-morrow. Mr: PaviL Moved, that William•.CoOper i . Esq. John S,trachey,Esq, : Jo Riley,Esq.. Henry Strachey, and Lieutenant-Colonel Shaw, should attend on .Wednesday r i ti) give.evidence on the charge against Martinis Wellesley ; — Ordered. . Sir ,Cll ARL ES PBICE moved for .an Accciunt of the Imports • and ,Exports to and from Great Britain, 'With . the number of Ships; and their Tonnage, that 'had entered into,',and cleared out from, the different Ports, distinguishing 'theßritish from the Foreign, :from the sth:olJannary, 1799, to the latest period. .—Ordered. , • . • Sfr,HEIcRY 11 , 111.,DmAY asked whether there had , • been any exchange of Prisoners between this Coun try and France ? The qtiestiOn Seemed to 'be put to Lordnowlek. Lord HOIVICK replied;. that he was sorry to say that there had' been no. exchange of prisoners, and . the Officers whb hid passed and re-passed, had been only liberated for time, on their parole. The Report of the Customs Fees Bill was brought .np, and Ordered to be further considered to-morrow. Mr. HOBHOUSE, on _account of the absensp'of the Right Hon. Secretary of State (Fox)•and Others, moved the postponement of the second reading ; of the Nabob of Arcott's Debts Bill till Thursday. . Mr. PRA AVIS said, that it was no fault of his ..• that it had been postpOned so long; •but, since it had come to this late period of the Session, he wished that it should stand over till the next. After a few words from Mr. nOBHOUSE and Mr. RYbER, the second reading was fixed for Thursday. LORD MELVILLE. Mr. WHITBREAD, pursuant to notice, moved that a Committee be appointed to inspe6t the Lords' Jour nals, as tar as they related to the Proceeding§ in the Trial of Lord Melville, and that they shquld report what , they should find therein to the House, Sir H. INlLomav thought, as this Motion, was of such a general nature, it would not be too much to ask what particular obje& the Hon. Gentleman had in view ? Mr. 'WHITBREAD replied, that it would be ma terial to !glow the proceedings of the Lords on this bead, pecaUse it might depend upon them what the fin re condu& of this House should he. Mr. PENT wished for a' more precise_answer.— He asked What it 'was intended the HOuse should do upon the produ&ion of these proceedings'? Mr. WHITBREAD wished to rake the Hon.Gentle nym as wise as he could "; but really, as be did not at present know what the proceedings were, he could nbt now give him a precise answer. But it might hap pen that the opinions of the Judges would be found' 6t: tie Jotir;nals, and this it must. be very material for tiie House to know. • Ml'. FULLER. recolleEled very well that it had been Ilin7 - ed, on . the other side of tbe House, by a Noble Lord, whom he saw in his place, that in case Lord Melville should bi acquitted, the extraordinary ex pellees of the Trial in Westminster-hall should be "efrayed. Lord HENRY PETTY replied, that it was true thatle had said, in answer to an observation about the additional expellee, that this - would be a' matter for future.consideration. Mr. FULLER said, that in case no other person did it, he himself would at sometime make a motion on, thi; subject • . Mir. ROBERT DUNDAS saicr.a leW:Vt7OrCIS reiatwe to the great addition to the expense in consequence having the Trial in Westnnwiter Hall; after whit},: the Motion 'was agrced to, and Mr. F'ox, Mr. 1ykt0 , ..:• BREAD, Lord HOWICK, Lord HENRY PET - 14•, -e '&C. SCC. were appointed 'as the said CommitV;e. Glti HOSPITAL Lord Howtex stated, that he could not bring in Big Bill relative. to the Searnen at Greenwich at pre . - sent, owing lo.an.informality, 'for he found that a I\ltssage from His Majesty would be necessary. In tife mean tiwe, however, he would move for 'some information whiA .it. woord be material for the House to posses. He,aecordingly moved for a.Copy of the Minute of the Governor of Greenwich Hospi tal of the sth inst. relative to thp Out-pensioners and wounded Seanten.' Mr. CANNING highly approved this measure ; and he was glad that oneof His Majesty's Ministers, and one too for whom he had the utmost respe6t, intended to confer this boon by the mode'of a Mes sage from His Majesty, This example had before been referred to ; and :he was happy to see that he adopted the _praaice which had been all along re commended from that side of the House, afid did not attempt to follow the steps of hiS Colleagues, Who wished to take a short cut to popularity, by trenching on the prerogative. Lord HOIL ICK hoped that he would alWays re ceive with due respe& any' expressions of esteem or regard for himself in that House ; but when these came evidently with a view to contrast his condu& with that . of his Colleagues, they were such as he would much rather not . hear. No arguMent what ever could be drawn from his conduct on the pre sent occasion against his Colleagues, because the cases were totally different. All prize money was, by Law, at the disposal of the CroWn ; and when it was intended to dispose of that money it was ob vious that the proper mode was by a Message from the King. There could here, therefore, be no con trast.; and when any, Gentleman wished to attack his Colleagues under the appearance iof paying a compliment to him, it was a sort of praise which he was very, little disposed to accept. The Motion was then agreed to.=—His Lordship further moved for an Account of the - Revenue 'and Expenditure of the Chest at Greenwich ; and for a Copy of the Minute of the Supervisor of the Chest, relative to the ame lioration of the condition of the Seamen. These MOtions also were agreed to. • Mr. BANKES gave notice, that on Wednesday he would state his reasons - why the Charge against the MarqUis Wellesley should be . disMissed, and not en tertained at all. WESTANDIA AUDITORS, Mr. FIAWTfrORN brought up the Report of the West Itidia Auditors' Bill. • Mr. ROSE said, that there was no provision here that any of the Commissioners should go td the West Indies : he had therefore an Amendment to propose; which was, that three of, the Commis sioners at least should positively go to the West Indies. . The SPEAKER, informed, him, .that . his Amend ment, ought to be 'brought forward as one to the body of the Bill : he was'at present to put the ques tion, that the blank should be filled up with the word ",two," purporting, that two Commissioner's should g 6 to the West Indies. If this should be carried . ih 'the 'affirthative, the Right • Honourable Gentleman's 4rnendment must be ptoposed in a subsequent Stage. Mr. HUSKISON, Mr. PEECEVAL, Mr. LONG„ and Mr. STURGES BOURNE, contended,that it was ab surd to sendonlY two Commissioners' to the West Indies, Where the barthen of the business lay, and where there was the greatest risk of mortality, while three retrained here doing almost nothing. Mr.' RYDER also contended - ,, that most of the evidence might be better, taken in• the West Indies; and therefore thought it absnrd the Commissioners abroad should .not have that power of residing which the Commissioners here ha r d : bethought the, ,measure was only 'Calculated to increase the pa tronage of the Treasury. Lord HENISY PETTY, 'Lord HowicK, and, Mr. MORRIS, on the other hand, contended, that the burthen of the business was not in , the West Indies, for the Gentlemen on the other side seemed to for get, that this Commission WEIS not only intended for the investigation of abuses, but also for the bringing up of the Accounts in arrear. After a few words from Mr. FuLLEtt. and Mr. WM. SMITH, the House divided on Mr. Rose's Amendment, that the blank should be filled up with the word " three.7—Ayes 21—Noes 72. Upon our return to the Gallery we found Mr. HUSKISSON on his legs, uraing some further objec tions to the Bill.—To which obje&ions Lord HENRY PETTY replied, alledging that the measure was cal culated to 'secure a complete and speedy investiga tion of the abuses complained of, and also to guard against their recurrence. Mr. ROSE repeated his former assertion, that the places about to . 1?e created by the Bill would be mere sinecures, and serve Only to extend ministerial patronage. This assertion the Right Hon. Gentle , man expressed his Resolution to repeat again and again, however it might, be resisted by the Noble- Lord, who. ought, in his judgment, to have sought much more experience before he had ventured to originate a measure of this nature, which betrayed a total ignorance of official business. 'Lord ROIVICK expressed his surprise at the quarter from' which the House had.just heard such vehement (injections against sinecures. After much lofty declamation upon political purity—after such high tones of mdependence e --and such ardent ex- . pressions - of solicitude .for the economic expendi ture of the pantie money, the House Would:natu rally look for some evidence of the Right 116,if; Gentleman's sincerity, and no doubt that sincerity . 'would be • evinced very soOn,'Perhaps to-morrow,, by the Right Honottrable Gentleman's resignation to his .Sovereign of the .sitiectire which‘he himself held." With regard to the Right Hon. Gentleman's_ allusion to, his Noble Friend's (Petty's) want of ex perience, it was true, the 'Noble Lord observed, that his Noble Friend was .not possessed of that experi ence ; which might be lboked for from a veteran in office.. There was, however, a great deal of the ex perience to which,- perhaps, the political success of the Right Hon. Gentleman .was owing, * which he rathet thought net desirable to his .Noble Friend ; while such experience as was really valuable could' not be difficult of attainmenPto that assiduous ap plication of a&ive talents for which his Noble . Friend was so eminently distinguished. - But upon the subject of want of experience in the arrange ment of this measure, the, 'Right Hon. Gentleman dealt in tact only in assertion—for experience, even very recent, vos in favour of that' provision in the Bill of which the Right Honourable Gentleman complained.- It .was notorious that in consequence of the sending home one of the Commissioners from. the West Indies in the course of the last Admini stratien, the inquiries of the Commissieners ikere materially assisted, and frauds tun great ainotintWere discovered. Therefore the Right Hon. Gentleaaan's assertion way • not entitled to credence. It was strhilge,- the Noble Lord observed, bow resolate the Right Hon. Gentleman and his' Friends , were to carry on debate., He had hoped that the debate, on this sUbjeCt at least, was at an end beffire this even ing ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman and Co. still determined to • persevere—rather more, to be sure, in bringing forward accusations against Mini ters than_in adducing arguments against their mea sures. Among those accused indeed he understood the Right Honourable Gentleman had thought pro per on a former occasion to include him--princi pally, as he was informed, in conseqnenceof some appointments that were recently made in the de partment over which he had' the honour to . preside. Had he been present at the time the accusation was made• by that Right Honourable Gentleman he, most probably should not have felt it necessary to take any notice of, it. But he now thought it pro per shortly to remark upon the cases alluded to. And first, with regard to the removal of Sir A. Hamond from the Navy Board; the faal was, that the Honourable Baronet bad made application for leave.to resign before the Patent of his Appointment to the Admiralty was actualiy made out. The ap plication. was acceded' to, and he had felt it .his duty to recommend that the Honourable . Baronet should, as is usual in such cases, be allowed three fourths of his salary during life. At the same 'time he hadto mention, that the. reason of this grant was solely on account of the Hon. Baronet's length of services. The Noble Lord added, that the ground of the Hon. Baronet's application for leave to resign, was indisposition and consequent inability to attend to the duties of the office; but yet he was happy to see that the Hon. Baronet was already so far reco vered as to be able to attend all the debates of that House. To Sir Andrew Hamond a successor (Captain Dickens) was appointed, in every point of view unexceptionable; but this Gentleman being disqualified by illijess to aft, Captains Nicholls, an officer ox character equally unquestionable, was sub stituted for him; Of the other three new appoint ments made in the naval department the Noble Lord declared, that so far from having any view •to patronage, the only'desire was to procure persons capable of an efficient discharge of duty in a branch of service•where such efficiency was but too visibly wanted; and of tho,e who were appointed he had. tostate that not one was at all known to himself or any of his colleagues in any other way than from the reporrof their qualifications. There was a fifth ap pointment about to be made in his department to which, perhaps, some part of the Right Hen. Gentleman's censure might be pointed. That was with regard to,Sir Charles Saxton's Office at Ports . - mouth. That Officer's age unfitting hiM for his present station, was about to retire, kit required that which he thought it his duty to resist, namely,. that he should be allowed to retain the whole of .his salary. Upon the retirement of that Honourable Baronet, the Noble Lord stated his intention of re commending an Officer (Captain Grey) to succeed him, his conneCtion with whom should not prevent him from saving that he was fully qualified for the office. With respect then to the conduct of the Navy, the Noble Lord felt that , the Right Hon, Gentleman's 'imputations wee as unfounded as those which he had thought proper to dire& against -the proceedings of his. Noble Friend, and -the measure betbre the House. , Mr. ROSE tha.lited the Noble Lord for the op ‘portunity afforded him by the allusion which be had thotight proper to Make to the - si.lbjea, of explain ingthe sinecure .granted to him. He was before disposed to do so, but he now felt it to be necesary, and. should enter into the explanation upon a fu, tore day. The Right Honouru)le Gentleman pa. negyriZed the talents and public services of Sir A. Harnond. ' Mr. S. BOURNE was astonished at the line of ' 'argument taken by the Noble Lord who spoke last but one—namely, that because a public man held a particalar sinecure, he should be precluded from objecting to the estnlishment of any, further sine cures. Would the' Noble Lord argue, that in conse quence of his ,Rig'it Hon. Friend the SeCretary of State for Foteign Affairs holding two sinecures (Mr. Rose 'exclaimed three), and his Noble Friend'at the Head of the Treasury holding two, they were dis qualified to resist the proposition of any new sine cures? . If the Noble Lord would not contend for that, upon what grounds could he call Upon his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Rose), who had got a sine cure; which was but a just reward for 3.0 years .great public services, to shut his -mouth, and , say .nothing, upon sucti a 'measure as that before the House ? With , regard to the official conduct of the 'Noble Lord,' he did not believe that it was the in tention of his Right Honourable Friend to cast the slightest• imputation upon it. But he 'could not help stating, that he was sorry the Noble Lord did. not, in the Administration of Office, rather a& upon his own good judgment than follow the advice - of others. The A ITORAY-GENERAL commented upon the species of experience of whiCh the Right Hon. Gentleman on the other side (Mr. Rose) seemed to be so very proud. This experience consisted in . a knowledge, for ,the last qo years, of the abuses which it was the obje& of the Bill befbre thpirouse to correa, and yet . no adequate•measure was ever. taken by the Right Itott Gentleman, 'or his col leagues, to put a stop to them. No ; the Right Hon. Gentleman and his colleagues were reposing on the ‘.‘ Bed of RoseS," which they' were 'now using every endeaVour in their power to - render un easy to their successors. With regard to the Bill bet Ore the House, he 'could hot conceive any reason for the earnest opposition made to the provision tbr ap pointing a, part of the proposed CommiSioners' to inquire, in this Country, into the abuses committed in the West Indies., for he could not suppose it possible that ady Member of Parliament would carry his solicitude for Publi, Accountants, intro- Awed to office through his patronage, so very far as fo shelter the conduct of such Accountants as had taken refuge in this Country from any investigation whatever. Mr. JOHNSTONE, adverting ,to the " Bed of .Roses" alluded to by the; last Speaker, observed, that when he brat beard the phrase he was certainly raOler .surprised at it. , But upon subsequent re }ion, seeing that the Gentlemen on one side felt so muchregret on leaving it, and the Gentlemen on the other side so much anxiety to get into it, he codld not help thinking that :there was something iu the place mach better than 'he had at first, ima. gined. With regard to the. crimination and re-cri-- nf nation upon. the subje& of sinecures, &c. which the House had :i.vitnesscsd from both sides of the House, such a praaice Might avail something among the parties themselves, but could have no effea for or a rainst any proposition upon the minds of indepe nt men, or when addressed to the dispas sionat, 4nderstandipg of the Country. It was of little consequence to those who were anxious for the right to find that both parties were wrong. In the case befor4 the House, he • thought that some. of the proposed Commissioners would be useless; and it was no defence for those who proposed th Bill to make out thaf their opponents had also created si necures. On the contrary, whenever the present Mi nisters should be guilty of any thhig prodigal or ar bitrary, he would think their guilt, considering their foriner professions, greater in a tenfold degree than that of their predecessors. When in Opposi tion those Gentlemen were perpetually professing a love of economy, an hatred of arbitrary power, and a desire to ,limit the increasing patronage of the Crown. For the fulfilment of these professions he had looked since their accession to office. But he had looked in vain, and had recently seen them, from the lust of patronage, make a most extraor dinary use of the Prerogative* in order to dismiss from office an old. meritorious, and highly useful servant of the Public (Sir G. Barlow). From the conduit - therefore of such Ministers the Honourable Gentleman profesSed his incapacity to entertain a hope of much public good. Lord HO WICK, in allusion to the remarks of an Hon. Gentleman on the other side (Mr. Sturges Bourne), observed, that having been but a short time in office, and being comparatively.unacquainted with the business.of his department, he should feel it a great presumptiofifor him to ad without taking the advice of others. Dr. LAwitEscE animadverted upon the obEe:va tions of Mr. Johnstone. Sir W. YOUNG spoke in favour of the Bill. Mr. ROSE vindicated the condua of the late Administration against the charges of the Attorney- General. The Bill, as aniended, was agreed to, and ordered , to be read a third time to-morrow. The. House, on the MOtion of Lord H. PETTY, re solved into a ConiMittee of Supply, to which was re ferred the Report of the Committee upon the Peti tion of Chalmers and Cowie. Mr. W. SMITH stated the circumstances of the case, which we have already laid before the Public, and concluded with observing, ,that although he had it originally in contemplation to move a grant to the Petitioners of 35,0001. as a compensation for tho loss they sustained—yet, in consequence of the opinion of others, to whom he referred,, he should now move for 25,0001. &c. The Motion being made, Mr. LONG stated his objections to it, deprecating the establishment of a precedent which would serve to encourage numerous Claims for compensation in consequence of losses , sustained through Embargoes. The sum applied for in this case be thought extraordinary, considering the amount of the cargoes. Mr. - WiLiEaronca'supPorted the Claim of the Petitioners, to which he conceived the liberality of the House should urge it to accede. The Peti tioners, it appeared, engaged in the speculation re ferred to at a period of great scarcity, in consequence of an A6t of Parliament ; the object of 'which was frustrated by an embargo laid' on fourteen days af• ter its enaEtment. Therefore the faith of Par liament and the honour Of Government was im plicated. ' A long conversation then followed, in which Lord HENRY PETTY supported the proposition of Mr. WM. SMITH on the ground that though the Peti-, tioners might not be entitled to indetnnification - as a matter of stria justice, some relief ought to be afl. forded them by the liberality of a great nation, they having unfortunately met with an obstruEtion to the success of their enterprise, even after it might have seemed to be held out to them by Parliament that none such should be experienced. In these sentiments ,he-was joined by Dr. LAWRENCE and Sir JOHN NEWPORT. Mr. BANKES, on the other hand, contended, that the speculation in which the Petitioners had en gaged was merely for profit, and one for the success of which neither the instice nor liberality of the Country was pledged. If relief were once given in a case of this kind, it would be impossible to say where applications of a similar kindinight stop, and they would fall,.of course, to be granted in every case of embargo. If, however, any thing were to be 'granted from the liberality of the Nation, he thought it should not go so far as 25,0001. but should be limited to 10,0001: or 12,0001. He accordingly moved, that instead of the sum of 26,0001. the Re solution be filled up with 12,0001. Mr. Rose and Mr. HUSKISSON supported this opinion, when the Committee divided, 'For the original Resolution - 59 For the Amendment - • 11--48 Ordered to be reported to-morrow. AFFAIRS OF IRELAND. Sir J. NEWPORT brought up a Bill to encourage the workiilg of Mines iti'lreland; . whichwas read a first, and ordered to be read a second time toirlor- mow. Sir J. NEWPORT brought up a Bill to replate the Eleaibn of Members to serve in Parliament in Ire land; read a . first, and ordered to be read a second time to-'morrow, and to be printed. Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved the Order of the Day for tal;ing into consideration the Report of the Irish Militia Service Bill. Mr. 0 . HA RA 'said, it had been the, custom upon former occasions for Government, in the first in stance, to defray the expellee of removing the men from. one service to the other, but that the. money was repaid by an assesstnent upon the Counties : he hoped there would be no such condition annexed to the present Bill, but-that Government would defray the whole expellee. The Bill was ordered to be re-committed to morrow. Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Irish Spirit Licence Mts.—Leave gainted. SCHOOLS IN IRELAND. Sir JOHN A:EIf:PORT said, he rose, in 13' \ suince of the notice which he had given, to call the attention of the I-19a 4 e to a sub j ea which con -siAered as'being of considerable importance to Ire.