The Sun. — London, England, 1806-04-01 00:00:00

'.:6ling the ArnericAns, who, he thought shinild be of Countries at: war vVitli -hith by. British subjeas'j , p t r e: i ted with very different sentiments. , but ,the law did not etiable him to prohibit such'i Lord GREIVILLE agreed that the Bill should potation : into South ,An*rica, aik'd • her n'eatraV lia;e a prospedi,ve tendency. Perhaps the best Way ; Islan4, frOrn-WhiCh tfke . Wes migllt fje. sent to the would 132:,t0 vest a power in his I\ lajesty in Council , Spanish Colonies, Guadaloupe, Martinique, and-to to authorise. the Governors of our West India Islands i Sr. Domingo, if it should ever again come under the , to open the Ports in: their respedive Islands, -iind -not , 'power of France. Every cargo of Slaves imported ' beyi,frited by the period announced in their-Pro= in a cOlony ten(jed . to increase the maritime<strength to clamations. .It was difficult to say what it might be of its Mother' country ; and it . had- been the opinioii prokr to do - in times of - pea c e -; but no. ciii'e'-'ciikriel-i 'of..a- very gallants Officer, that the Colony of St. doubt of the advantages which - resulted ire - tithe of Domingo was the-greatest source of the ma r it ime ar ;' they were not only great, but. of indislien t. sibie .strengilvot . Fiance. ' The li onse 'would be aware of , &essity.lhe necessity of preventing_the importation of Slaves Lord SHEFFIELD said a few words reSpeaing, tiy British subjeas to neutral Settlements. This the Mo6on . he had submit ted on thiS subject last was the ,objed of his Bill; in which he proposed to Session to the House,- and contended that it was &ft.: . tnake reference, fOr the pUrposeof giving more effed f e rent in many respeds from_ the Paper on the Table, to His M a j est y 's Proclamation in Council, of the to which .a Noble Lord (Holland) had alluded, - l.th 'of August 1603, which: applied to some, but The Duke of MoNTRosE said a few words in ex' i not to all the parts to which his. Bill was proposed planation ;after which the Motion was agreedto.— to extend. After a few other.qbservations ou ,the Adjourned. , subject, the Learned Gentleman moved, "for leave , . to bring,in a Bill, to give more effed to His Ma j e5.......:—........ .......:—........ - ' ty's Proclamation in _Council, dated. 15th August, _ - _ _. HOUSE OF COMMONS. _ • 1805, &c. and to prevent the importation of Slaves, into th' Colonies of any Foreign Power in British Ships." The . SPEAKER adverting to the irregularity of, referring to a document not bore the House,' re commended to the Learned Gentleman to confine his Motion to the latter member of it, whereby he might afterwards have an opportimity of moving for the produetion of the Proclamation, when it might be referred to the Committee on the Bill, and an instriitiOn given to the Committee to make provi sion therein pursuant thereto. Mr. Secretary FOX rose , merely to ask, ,wlie ther His Majesty's PrOclamation was not a public' Aft, which might regularly be referred to - ? • • PERCEVAL thought it was not such a pub lie MA as could be referred to. Proclamation, though binding on a part, was not -binding on the whole of His Majesty's sublets. • The ArrOitz•lilt GEf;"ERAI. then withdrew his original Motion, whi6h he noticed for to-morrow, and moved that an addresS - be presented to His Majesty for the produ6tion of a copy of his Procla mation. • General T4RLETON hoped, as the measure might be prejudicial to his' constituents, that suffi cient time Would be allowed in its progress for taking the sense of the Merchants of the Kingdom upon :MONDAY, I%IA,RcH 31. The SPEAKER, accompanied by, many Members, attended in the Flouse of Peers, pursuant to a Message by the Black Rod; where the itoyal Assent was given by k...Jrainissioi) to tne 10,500,0001, the 1,500,0001. Exchequer Bills, and the Felons'. Transportation Bills. Sir Jomsr Npwrowr took the oaths and his seat, on his re-ele6,tion for Waterford. MATTI-0 , 0,ws -presented a Petition frofn the, Debtors confined in the,,Gaol of Hereford.—Ordered to lie on the Table. On the Motion of Mr. BAI 11URST, ,the Bristol Harbour Bill , was read a third time, and passed. A Person from the Exchequer presented an Ac count of the Sums that re►nained in the Exchequer on the sth of, January, 1806, out of the Grants for the service. of the year 1805. Also of the. Sums that had been issued by his Majesty, pursuant to Addresses of that House, which had not been made goOd by Parliament.—Ordered to lie on the Table its merits. Sir WILLIAM YOUNG and Alderman PRIN-: SEP respeetively'expressed their .hopes, that the prohibition would not be extended to, the Islands, captured - since the commencement of the War, the iuliabitants of which had thrown themselves with exultation a second time under our prote&ion. In reply to General Tarleton, the ArioRNEY _G A7 NERAL observed, that he ptoposed to bring in a Bill and have it read a first time and printed, and then that it' should lie over till after the recess, which would afford all parties full tune to consider its pro visions. piC•4aglit it w.ss the ,duly of a ChanCellor ot the Ex ;c4quer! to listen 'with attention to, every , 'S(rift'bbriefit to ht be • derived, from even the sug gestioitsis of the ignorant. There were two points whith lie wished to call the attention •of the ,Noble'Lord in the first instance. Afterwards, he proposed to state his opinion. More at large. The first 'point - was that T;art'of the Noble 'Lord's-speech; in which he stated that it: was proposed that all in come-above 501. a year should pay t 0 per cent. and that the exemptiOns.were afterwards to be re-paid.—= To this alteration he objeeted. He could see no good• reason for making'the . individual -entitled .to the-ex= emption, pay the full 1 o per cent. and put him after wards to the trouble and' expellee' of seeking. for the re-payment. No poor' man could aftbrd to lay down the whole duty, and he could not consider a person having only 1001. per annum,. any other, than a poor man. If persons were obliged to pay the tax at first,. and afterwards left to reclaim the amount of the exemptions, it would in many cases be better -to' forego the' exemptions altoge ther: He could himself from experience state the difficulties and incpnveniencies arising. from being , obliged to go long distances for such purposes, hav ing been sometimes ekpOsed - to the trouble - and - vexa . - tiou of atteedingtOget a surcharge-reduced. But he should ask whether the tax. - -gatherer. was .to, keep , the money ? If he was' to make the re-payment; he ought ,to have sonie friend to enable him to make 'the re-payment. This would be contrary to the constitutional - ,princii3le of leaving the pub lic money bit- as short -a- time as possible in the bands of the ColleaOrs. This would -lead- to se rious consequences; but he trusted the Noble Lord 'wOuld devise softie remedy. The next consideration he had to advert to, was founded on the explanation of the Noble Lord. on a former .night, if he under stood iv righiL.' , By this -it appeared that a great mass of property.would escape the tax. By the, arrange ment with the Bank the tax wouldbe secured-on the funded debt 5- but the unfunded debt, amounting to 26,000,001. and bearing an interest of 5 per cent, such as Exchequer Bills, would escapeit. To_ilhis . - • trate this the Hon. Gentlyman stated an' uninten tional fraud committed by himself, in not being aware of his having two Elchequer Bills 'of l 'withPut , , inclaling the interest upon them in his income.— , He believed therefOre the whole of the unfunded, debt would escape the tax. It had been imputed to the Noble Lord that he threw a gloom over the finances of the Country :- tbis he did not think any thing said by -the Noble Lord would warrant :.but ' he was convinced that: if that had been the case it would have more nearly corresponded with' - the real situation of the Country. He could not conceive that to be a. flourishing condition; of t Country to which the follo w i n g features tielong ed : He could not consider. any Country as flourish-,‘ ing, where the poor were supported, not by labour,- but by a drain of six millions from the public income of the Country. In - London, he admitted, that there 'never had been a greater appearance - of luxury, wealth, and abundance, than at present. But whilst the Capital displayed wealth, he feared that the Pro- . vines suffered. • Paris had- never exhibited more ap pearance of wealth and luxury than under, the Re gency of the Duke "of Orleans, the year before the Mississippi Scheme. The stock of that speculation suddenly fell, and all France and Paris sunk with it. The expanses he saw about him were not to him a proof of the prosperity of the Country. London was , wealthy now, as Paris in the other instance,'by thecir culation pf paper, which is and may be precarious in value. No man can be srire of his property whilst liable to the Property Tax, first gradtally laid on, and now per saltunz. No Man could be sure of his property :if he exchanged real property,for a bit of men— . From the ruin that was impending, there was . . but one remedy to save the Country : if the re medy could not, be applied, they ought' not to hear more of the prosperity of the Country. He had heard this evil strongly reprobated, as laying every man's property at the mercy Of Government. The remedy was, to oblige the Bank of England to pay its notes in specie. :The Bank had an- A& of Parliament to:. 1 restria, these issues ; but though the LegiSlatuie was omnipotent, there were things it was not corn- . petent to do, such as, to oblige a man to sell his solid property for a scrsp of, paper. He now came to the taxes, and it was not to any single one he felt an onjeaion, but to' thern• all in a mass-- (a laugh)--at least , such as are proposed to cover the interest of the Loan. As to the Sinking Fund, he had heard it much praised, but it 'appeared to him that no genius was necessary to establish that system. Robert Walpole, and others, had a&ed . on the principle ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman Who commenced the - present system had given it a:vigor bus effeet. ..,There were two things to be considered in it, the effea and the objea. 'What had been the effea of this enormous -power in the hands of Go vernment or of Parliament ? To keep the Three per Cents. at Go. If it had produci:d any other elfea, he , vas yet to be informed. It now amounted to eight millions, and yet the Country had derived. no relief froth it not if single tax had been 'repealed. If he was to be asked, what he was the het ter'for the Sink:- ing - Fund, he ?ould only say, .that it bore a•nedrer proportion to the amount of the debt than it did two 'or three years since. All .Ministers Were fond of this Fund. It -was certainly right to take measures to support the -Public Credit, but it was also right, ,that the .people should derive some sensible, some aaual, some! tangible benefit from the Fund. Hist opinion was, that if not the Wholp, at least some part; of, it, ought to be applied to the relief of the people. He thought the whole of the. interest of this year's. Loan ought to be .defrayed out of it. If it- Could be' proved that a necessity existed for continuing the, present application, there would be an end. of all ar-- •gument. He was of opinion ) ._ that if the 'Sinking 'Fund were to be Seven millions instead - of eight; it Would equally •keep the 3 per cents. at' do. The fund redeemed, he . thought, ought to -be applied to the public•Bervice, ife had - tints stated all :he had ; to - sae on the subjea ; 'and lie bad only to repeat . what he had before asserted, that he was not influ enced by any wish to throw any embarrassment in the way of his Noble Friend, or to impede the pub lic 'service. His :chief attention had been, for a considerable time. pzlst, dircaed to atlotlar subjeci For twenty. yeftrs •he had'devoted his whole applica tion to -that ob;etit,' and without any encouragement, Hereafter-he i;lionl - a , apply_ his faculties, feeble as he Rimitted them to be; 'to , objeas, of iliteinal policy '.inc.l interest. Si.a.Tetary FOX was desirous of saying a few VOri do sorhe r geraeal pointS that has been tecelhal uphn by his lion. I..rieltd:" As to the more or less, that he might Wve.ao say with or without encourage ment, it was not easy to- determine. He concurred in much of what had fallen from his Hon. Friend in the early part of his speech. He was ready to admit that he thought the provision respecting the exert p - tionsproduaive of many inconvenience ; but if that was not now for the first time intacalticeal,,but exist- 7 •. ed under the. Property Tax Aft; it was not to be int pitted to a - clef : ea .- tin the. aystem of his - Noble Friend: There were some small annuities which would be empted., andlathers .that Would be entitled to an-ex emption only in part. On examination, it wquld found that the arranzmenl proposed was not to very , obje&iuuable. For ate illustration, he shouldaeon ; sider only thoSe who were exempted-altogether: a per Son, for instance, may lie in possession Of an nuity granted by a Nobleman-or Gentleman of for- tune ; it is only proposed - that the -amount of the duty shall be dednatein- the first itistance by the person who pays it, .and the annuitant awill:after , wards beallowed the full henefit ofthe exemptions be longing to his conditione'The prevision only required that the.grantora of the.annuities,. which most of the nobility or menof great. property usually were, should keep back the - amount of the duty. - The Duke of Bedford and Earl Spencer, as will as others, had many such annuities2o pay. He had an opportunity. of being acquainted'with‘the difficulties that arose out of the manner of allowhigthe exemptions from-per sonal obserwatiptis,: and, had, stated the matter to the Chancellor of the L'Xchequer last year. It often happened, - that pOor persons, - .widows, and others, possessed . of small annuities, being e ntitled to , emptions, had to incur reach trouble and expence • in procuring their exemptions. He should abstain, however, from pursuing this subjea further. His Noble Friend,..hp .Was Sure, would give the subje6t his - whole attention, and proviela a remedy. 7— It , was a sUbjea; which, in a great measure, be longed to the consideration *of the Bill in; detail. And when that subject shonld be under discus sion-, no : Gentleman could confer a greater or Mere • essential benefit •on his Ceuntry than. by attend ing and giving the aid of his advice, in order tol - ra',er the exemptions as little-liable to trouble or expence - as possible. The next thing his Hon. Friend had 'touched upon Was the Unfunded Debt. The first impression on his own mind had been the same as that of his Hon. Friend. But first impressions were often wrong. At first view it would appear, eatraor dinary thatan income of a million• should be-exempt from the tax. - But on consideration he thotight The-Usrtfuntied_Dabt might be exempted froM the tax without inconvenience or loss. Exchequer Bills were liable to beat - a discount or premium., I,beir being exempt frOna the tax of etaurse - was .prOdoaive .of an advantage to , the 'Public, es the Government could dispose of ftlieni at - higher rate. - His fir it view had leaned to the opinion-entertaioed by the HoneGentletnan ; but -on consulting with persons . .better acquainted with the subjer..4,he was convinced that Exchequer Bills might be eXeltipied from thetax without any inconvenienee orldss. • The next sub ject alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman was one of the highest importance,• namely, the Sinking Fund. His Honourable Friend had aaid, that all lkiinisterse were 'fond 'of it. It was -well lit - tow4u to his Hon. Friend, however, that ever - since itofirst establish -a meat he had been a.friend:tO it. As to the merit of the measure, God forbid. that !he should dispute ie . with any man;' 'When - ' it was considered what -vast additions had then recently been made to. the public' debt, it would not be doubted that coy ticitiiittt t; tion must, after the American War, haveresorted to‘ some such system. Bet ; when a man' had dote a thing, and done it well, lie ..outb,t_ to .allowed for he was justly entitled. too, for having av done. The Hon. Gentleman_ had said that the only effe&of the Sinking Fund had been to keep the three per cents. at 00 ; if it had done no more, that wa's, an essential advantage; it had kept up erep,diroinish- ed taxation, lightened the burthens of the people. sides,whatever k ceps down the interest ofmoneymuste in a Commercial .Nation, be of infinite:service. The Hon. Gentletnan , will be sensible of this from .a.little refleaion. It is a matter of calculation, and may easily be brought to the result. If he Were to take into his consideration the vast loans that had been negociated during last ware and reffea what would, have been the value. of the three per cents. with. out ti, Sinking Fund, - be woad be sensible of this. Without a 'Sinking Tnhd 'they would have been aown 'at 50, or suppose that too low, at 54 or 55, and on such. enormous loans, .What Would have been Jost both in capital and interest to the public ? He was aware that many great and able . persOns. amongst his friends /differed with hint on this subject, but whatever respect hs might have for their opinions, they had neither convinced Min nor excited .any doubt in his. mad. lit the latter' part of his, speech, his HonaTriend had tonched.upon a Most important subjea, which it was not then a proper time to discuss. It might, and would, however, hereafter be a fit sue jeet for' chn sideratidn. lTd Was certain that the Might- Hon. - Gentleman who established the system had some such period in his contemplation at some future day. Whilst in a state of War, the subject could net - well be discussed .by them. When ,the- conntry should be in a situation of greater prosperity, in the enjoyment of Peace, it might be proper, on It consideration of the state of the, Debt, of the ampiant of the ,Sinking Fund, and of the other eircum - stakes of the Country, to fix some balite_ after Which the progress of the Fund should be-applied to the reduction of the public burthens. . Another argument, of the Honourable Gentleman, which was not distinguished - for his • . usual • accuracy, was that apart of the Sinking Fund might be applied to the service ofthe present year. • Why, heargued, should the Ifutid be continued-at eight millions, awhile at seven millions it' would and had. heihre ,kept the 3 per cents. at. (in ? But was the, debt thosame at the time when the Fund at. seven millions kept the 3 per cents. at do ? It was hiaopinion, that ifany part of the Sinking Fund should be diverted from its present application; the: a per.eentseeo'aid nql4 , !, kept up to their present value. In general (hey ', w e r e, disposed to indulge in great exoltation, w hen' on the subjea.of our Finances. For. his own, part, he ;was not disposed to give way to !such -feelings. He was sei6ible that beir situation was one of great.ditlicul ty.. They were in a situation te,suiler hem y burthens themselves, and to impose thein upon ()Wets. ,as to wilat his Honeura Ole Frielai had said we e e . sion tor the pour, he thought it a sac, et DUBLIN PAVING CONINIISSIONERS. - - Mr. Yoaßz gave notice, that in consequence of What hid occurred on a former night relative to the cpndua of the late Government in Ireland towards these Commissioners, he should to..morrow move for Copies of the Communications from the late Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and the Secretary of State, re lative to the Dublin Paving Board. Mr. GOLDING gave notice, that he should to-mor row move for a Copy of a Letter from the GiA - eritot - - General of India to. the Committee of the Court of DireCtors, relative to the friendly conduct of the Na bob of Oude, and praying some manifestation of the Company's sense of that condna. E Rh ST. VINCENT. . • * Mr'. JEVFERY ga ve notice, that on as early a day after the recess as would suit the coni - enience of the House, he should be ready tobring forwa,rd his charge against Lord St. Via-eta. When called on by the INDIA PAPERS. Speak,er to name sonic day„ the .Hon. Gentleman On the application , of Lord. HENRY PETTY,. Mr. fixed on Thursday the 17th Of April: HUDDLETONE consented to put elf his Motion for Mr. TIERNEY Observed, that the voluminous Pa- Papers relative to the Nabob of Oude, as it might pers moved Or an that subje& Were not yet deliv,er- give rise to a discussion which would in t er fere with ed, and thst it Would be imp ossible for Gentlemen b the conversation that was likely to take place on to make thenisel4S sufficiently acquainted, With their the future consideration of the Budget. ' contents bythat day, to be able to come prepared to Mr. ROBERT THORNTON, for the same reason, the discussion. deferred his Motion. Mr. Rata , ' had known before he fixed the day Mr. Pautt. gave, notice,. that he should to-morrow , for his Motion, that the papers were nearly ready mov e An 'Amendment to the Motion ,of the Ho fOr dciivery. If any further delay were necessary, he q nourableGentleinan (Mr. Huddlestone) relative to would have no diffiehlty in postponing his Motion to Oude. SOllle.subsequent day. • • Mr. VANSITTART brought up the Loan Bill.— Ordered on the Motion of . Sir Jtift-ii NEWPORT, Read a first time ;to be read • a second time to 'that there be laid before the Hodse, an Estimate of morrow. the Expences of the Charter SchoOls, and other - Mr. Hawa'noatv brought up the Report. of the Charitable Institutions, in. Ireland; for the year 1806. British Fishery Bill. -To be read a third time to- Sir JOHN NEWPORT after Wards , preseated these morrow. Estimates, which Were ordered to lie on the table ; A Person from the Navy Pay-Office presented an and then gaVe notice _that he should move them in . Account of the amount of Balances remaining . in the Committee of the hands of"the Treasurer of the Navy , &c. o, Supply on Wednesday next. , n the. 'SPIRIT CONTRACT. ' sth of January, 1 806. Mr. BROOKE, who had gien notice of a Motion t ' REPORT OF THE BUDGET. for this day, relative to the Contra&s for sill plying , Lord HENRY PETTY moved the 'Order - of - the his Majesty's Navy . with Spirits, stated the motive Day for the further consideration of the Report of which. induced him to think of bringing the subject the CoMmittee of Ways and Means. before the Honse, to be the great inerease,of the con- On the question being 'Put that this Repent be sumption of Foreign Brandy in the British Navy, Pow taken into further consideration , since the year 1803, to t h e great detriment of ' Alf.r. FRANCIS (front the opposite B,ench, Mr. our colonial interest. But as regulatiotis.had been Huskisson at the-same time appearing eager to catch adopted by Government, which were satisfa&Ory to the Speaker's eye) rose and observed, tha • t he ought those most concerned , h e did not feel it hecessary pe rha ps t o haVe , given way to those more compe for him to trouble the House with any Motion. tent to diScuSs this subje& than himself ; but as he , SIR lOIIN DUCKWORTH. • had'been more in the habit of speaking ti-Oin that On the Motion,of Lord Hex r.'. PETTY, the House , side of the House (a laugh) than t h e Gentleman ;47,-eat irtto a Committee on His Majesty's 'Message near him, he though'meret he b creature:Of habit,ad some elaini toth prece ongh relative to a Provision for that gallant Officer Sir denee. He was a -John Duckworth. A resolution was unanimously pot a machine, and had Sat long enough On that side agreed to for grantinl- to His Majesty the sum of Of the HouSe not to feel an ambition to sit t on any I°ool. annually out of ° the consolidated oind of Great other (a laugh). 'He,wished to Speak from that side. Britain, to commence - from the 6th of February last, Of the Honse, - for the pdrpose of engaging' the at and to continue during the term of Sir John buck- ,fention'Of the Gentlemen, on the other side to what worth's natural life. On .the House being resumed,, lie 'bad to say: 'Hder is-senimeratents with had - respe& to the e the Report was ordered to be ;received to-mofrow. ' subjea then un considion been n:t - Mr..PAULL fixed - his Motion against Marquis We 1.... 1-9-lisrepreSented -abroad; however, he Amnia ' not lesleY (as 'well as we could culled his words) for: take further' notice of such misrepre:entation, end ; :Wednesday the 16th: of April. , ,oiily content hiMsell with stating- then what he had _ Laid TEMPLE observe d that it was im p ossible i 'befOre'ititimated.. In doing this he was not aetuan -the House could, before that .clay, have'sutftcienti ed by any views of opposition. ,It vas' not in his time to examine the voluminous Papers connected, He natureto truste prdtheofeiHon: 4e s•friendkneW him sship„ and:t u * fficiently ietice opp to think. osition. under this subje&.. Blit we understood Mr. P him incapableaull to ; -\ - persevere in his notice.. , . ' of 'such condo& What he had to ' - PROHIBITION• 0 - F THE, IMPORTATION OF urge was not intended to •embarrass his Noble, SLAVES BN BRITISH SUBIECTS TO Nliti.. Friend, but with a view to the public service. • - It . MAL ISLANDS. . , • was rfot friendship to conceal from a man what was The ATTORNEY GENERAL, pursuant to, his wrong. Nothing was easier than, to fall; into the notice on a former night, rose to sn bmit a proposi- J . pradiee of 'what is wrong at fi sures, rst--,he mea h, n when t not tion 't6 the - House; Which : be trusted would meet moral wrong, but erroneous mea whic with general concurre nce. As the dictates of hu- I 'onceadoptedetenerallyl4:6 progressive and more . enanity . and 1)01icy pointed to the same objed, he extended . - errors. It"' was c isy to get into the la . was sure there could be no difference of opinion - byrinth, but difficult. to get out-of- it. These were with Tespe6t to the treasure he had to pv`opasrel '1 he i . all the preparatoiy remarks he should make in African Slave Trade; as the law at present stands, haling to the:Observations he should submi t to the might be carried on by British subjects to the -Co- . ose on -the' subje& under discussion. ,he -ob lollies Of Countries not at war with this Country, nervations were not 'new to him—they would have which tended to increase their means of ri‘tillino - the ''•apntied last y*.eir• as well-as this year;:raid:inider• any ColoniarE tablishments . , and maritime streng% of , 'Aituinist6ition. He- had not, incteeo, paid as,much this Country. ; From . the . relative sitLuuion of the. 2 .: atteittion Ili perhaps -he onght • to : such suhjeols,, in' neutral Islands, the Enemy' Colooies might - . be sup- consequence •of hits application to Oifer ,voncerus plied from t hem with Slaves that had becu parcha , :eci , (India affifirs), which he i now dust circled from , his with British capital, slut iriportel in firitili shirs. consideratiuo. He, however hid' not been', v. , holly the Rights of War k, ive 111,•Majesty the pew, r.to inilttentiv - , to these subi . ens; and whateVer might prohibit die imPoriation of !:;lii‘vs into the Qolontes be the true merit •of his observations thereon, he. , • . ~.~-_ V a Vl