The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-02-15 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD. Emptrial Varlfament. HOUSE Or LORDS. . • MONDAY, FEB. 11. The LORD CHANCELLOR having taken his seat on the wool sack at five o'oclock, Lord TEYNnam rose to present a petition from the inhabi tants of the barony of Gallen, in the county of Mayo, in 'lreland, against the tithe system. The petitioners complained of the great and unjustoppression they laboured under in being compelled to : pay tithes, and prayed their lordships to relieve them as speedily as possible from the infliction of so ruinous a grievance. The petition was ordered to lio on the table. Lord TKYNHAAI next. rose to call their lordships' attention to the order of the day, with a view to bring before their lordships the conduct of anoble marquess (Sligo), in accordance with the notice he had given. He nad received a variety of communi cations from the county of Mayo, of which the noble marquess was Lord Lieutenant, compiaming in the strongest manner of .toe very harsh and uuwarrantaule course which the noble mar quess had recently adopted towards certain parts of that county, particularly the barony of Gallen. It appeared that at the last election of members of Parliament for the county there was a warm contest, in which some of the candidates, who were re lated to the noble marquis, were opposed by Sir Wiliam Bra baron; and, arising out of that contest there were some riots, each as frequently . occur at elections every where, but there was nothing in those riots to call for any extraordinary application of unconstitutional measures towaids any part of the county. The riots were of the kind that happen every day at elections in England, and might have been suppressed, as he understood, by the ordinary powers of the magistrates. He would now proceed to give their lordships a statement of facts. It seemed that in consequence of a communication from the noble mar quis to the magistrates of the county, a large assemblage of the, latter took place at the town of Castlebar, where they delibe rated with closed doors, without any person being made ac quainted with the nature of their proceedings until it was known by the result. That was, that they had agreed to memorialize the Lords Justices to place the barony of Gallen, and another Places, under the operation of the Peace Preservation Bill ; and upon this memorial, and supported as it was by . the noble marquess, the Lords Justices acted, and by proclamation placed those districts of the county under the ban of the empire. The consequence was, that a police and a military force were sta tioned in the proclaimed districts, and repeated conflicts took place between the troops and the people, in which several ayes were lost ; and such was the mode in which justice was administered in that unhappy country, that at the in quests held on the bodies of the slaughtered people, the juries returned verdicts of justifiable homicide, whereas, if such atrocities had been prepetrated in this country, ver dicts of murder would undoubtedly have been given. The barony of Gallen, it should be observed, was chiefly the pro perty of the noble marquess, and his harshness towards his tenantry upon this occasion was attributed to the fact of a great majority of them having voted for Sir William Brabazon at the election, against the Browns, who were the noble marquess's relatives. S.r William Brabazon was the friend of his country, and the people knew that and supported him. The noble mar- Ouess was desirous of converting the county of Mayo into an ld Sarum, and have the whole patronage in his own hands, but the people would not submit to be thus dealt with, and he ( Lord Teynham) would say that the whole of the noble mar quess's conduct on this occasion did not seem to do him much credit. If proper justice were done to Ireland, there would be no occasion for the introduction of either the police or the mi litary; for the hearts of the people would then be with the go 'verninent. Having said thus much, he would conclude by mov ing for copies of the proclamation of the Lords Justices of Ire land, declaring Gallen in a state of disturbance; of the memo rial of the magistrates and clergy of Mayo to the Lords Justices tiereou ; of Sir William BrabaLon's memorial to the same; of a list of the chief constables in the county of Mayo, in 1832 • of the committal for offences in the barony of Gallen in 1830,18,31, and 1832; of the number of persons in confinement at the pre sent time, for offences comnntted in the barony; and lastly, far a copy of the appointment of Joseph Rourke, Esq., as colo ner of the county of Mayo. The question having been put, The Marquess of SLAG() rose, and said that he hoped as the noble lord who had just sat down had referred to him in so personal a manner the house would favour him with their atten tion for a few minutes, particularly as he was not much in the habit of troubling their lordships. (Hear, hear.) If the Lord Chancellor for Ireland or the noble Secretary for State were in the house, they could have informed their iordships that the barony of Gallen had given much trouble and uneasiness to the government. Until very lately certainly that barony had been an exception to the general disturbance that existed in Ireland, but latterly such a bad spirit had risen there as to make it neces sary to have recourse to the extraordinary means of which their lordships had heard so much. He had not brought with him from Ireland a singie document connected with the proceedings in question, for he had not at all anticipated the motion now before the house, but he had put down on paper a statement of facts within his own knowledge, which he would put their lordships in possession of, and fur the truth of which he would pledge himself. The first outrage that occurred was in the month of September, which arose out of the disputed ownership of a house between two brothers, and the parties on both sides proceeded to such sanguinary conflicts, that it was necessary to make application to government to place a military force in possession of the house. Shortly after, the house of a gentle man named Moore was burned to the ground, that gentleman's son being the solicitor for one of the brothers. The noble mar quess then went on to recount a variety of sanguinary outrages 'committed in the district of Gallen, before the application for the Peace Preservation Bill. On one occasion, a man was knocked off his horse and murdered, and not content with this act of slaughter, the perpetrators impaled the horse alive, and the stake came through its body out at the breast. It was quite a mistake, lie said, of the noble baron who brought forward this motion, to say that the barony was proclaimed through his (Lord Sligo's) interference. He had done nothing more in the matter than what became his ditty as Lord Lieu teuant of the county, namely, to forward the memorial of the 'magistrates to the Lords Justices. As to the meeting of the magistrates at Castlebar, that took place owing to the repeated complaints made to him (Lord Sligo) of the disturbed state of that part of the county alluded to, and the utter impossibility as was found of executing the laws there, for not a shilling of tithes could be collected, and the clergy were making constant representations to him on this head. lie found, too, that the local magistrates of the district would not Ka, and, in fact, four of them signed a round robin declaring that they would lend no assistance towards the collecting of tithes. At the meeting of the magistrates at Castlebar there were present four lieutenants, eight or nine deputy lieutenants, and seventeen magistrates, and the state of that part of the county to which their attention was directed received - from them every consideration, and it was not until the necessity for ex traordinary measures appeared most urgent that they agreed to the memorial. When he (the Marquess of Sligo) found - that he could get no assistance from the local magistrates, he appointed a Mr. Jones, an English gentleman, a magistrate in the dis trict,-and forty policemen were placed at his disposal; but this force was found to be quite inadequate to the purpose of keep ing the peace and collecting the tithes, and it became necessary to have the aid of 150 men of the 10th light dragoons. With reference to what the noble baron had said respecting the elec tion, he (the Marquess of Sligo) denied that the riots and out rages spoken of had at all arisen out of the immediate election, and he could not help saying that he thought Sir William Bra baron had not at ail acted judiciously iu keeping up, as he did, a spirit of excitement and animosity after all the election pro ceedings had been long at an end. Notices had been sent through the county denouncing every man as an enemy to his country who voted against that candidate, and the scandalous system of exclusive dealing was carried ou to a ruinous extent. Even the fair sex became partisans in the matter, and indeed the whole frame of society was disjointed. The nobleniarquess said it was quite absurd to supopse that he could influence the sixty county magistrates, to induce them to call upon the go vernment to place the county of Sligo under the provisions of the insurrection act. (Hear.) It was a fact, that since he had become Lord Lieutenant of the county, he had only appointed one magistrate, and that gentleman was a Roman Catholic. (hear, hear.) The noble marquess then justified his having called in the troops to secure the quiet of Castlebar, upon the occasion alluded to by the noble lord (Tevnhain,) because, in the town in question there was a bank of stones, and it was im possible to say what would be the consequence of an outrage on the part of the populace. (Hear, hear.) With respect to trio allusion made respecting the petty sessions, he would ob serve, that the non-attendance of inavitrates at those sessions snowed the state of insubordination in which the county was. Having said so much on the general question, he would trouble their lordships with a word or two respecting himself. Upon what grounds, he would ask the noble lord, did he appear in that house as the champion of the rights of the people of Mayo ? On what authority did he make the grave charges which he that night preferred ? When, he asked, did the noble lord or any of his connections act in such a way as to command the flattering testimonial with which his (the Marquesii of Sligo's) eonduct had been rewarded ? He had been matigued in every pussithe way lately, but he had not retorted upon his calumnia tory as he might have done. (Ilear.) He had now concluded what he had to say on this subject, and he begged to assure their lordships that he made this statement rather with a view to call upon their lordships td turn their attention to the state of Ireland with a view to its improvement, and not with a wish to see it unnecessarily coerced. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of TEMPLEMORE bore testimony to the fact, that the state of the county of Sligo demanded that the noble mar quess should have used prompt and decisive measures, and that it became necessary that a portion of the 10th hussars should march from Longford to Castlebar, in order that the peace might be preserved. (Ilear.) Nothing could be more kind and attentive than the conduct of the noble marquess both to the soldiers and to the populace. Knowing these facts, he thought it his duty to state them to the house. (Hear.) Lord MELBOURNE did not think that the grounds stated by the noble lord (Teynham) were such, as justified him iu calling for papers and documents, but he (Lord Melbourne) should not object to their production. In doing so, however, he wished to guard himself from giving the slightest countenance to the charges made by the noble lord. After the statement made by the noble marquess, who had laid before their lordships the facts of the case in a clear and forcible manner, he did not think would be.advisable in their lordships to go into an investigation of the circumssances connected with this individual county, particularly when, as their lordships were aware, they would be called on almost immediately to go into an inquily into the state of Ireland generally. (hear, hear.) He might, however, be allowed to bear his testimony to the admirable conduct of the noble marquis, and also to state that, from all he (Lord Mel bourne) had known, and from the correspondence which had ensued, .he felt certain that the noble marquess had discharged his Important duties not only with zeal, with diligence, and with activity, but with a feeimg . of tenderness and regard to the interests of the people, and without having recourse to any measure of harsuness or severity. (Hear, hear.) The Marquess of CLANRICARDE defended the conduct of the police on the occasion alluded to, who had, considering the try ing situation in which they were placed, acted upon the whole with great propriety. (Hear.) It the noble lord had looked into tile evidence given respecting the cause of the death of the man adverted to by the noble lord, he would have found that the police were not to blame. Ile would have found that the unfortunate man who had been shot had thrown two stones, and that he was shot while in the very act of throwing one of those stones. (Hear.) Connected as he was with the noble marquess he did not think he need tender his testimony in favour of him, but he might be allowed just to say that it would be better if the noble lord, before he made grave charges, would consider the authority upon which he made those charges. (Hear.) It was not astonishing to find the lower orders making charges against the magistrates of the county, when there could be fQund noble lords who, without the slightest pretence or reason, ad the very same thing. (Hear.) Lord LORTON said he had no doubt that the noble marquess had discharged his duty . in a most efficient and exemplary man ner; and he also conceived that the noble baron opposite (Lord Teynham) had been erroneous in his statement with regard to the police force of Ireland, whose conduct, he could say, had been, generally, most exemplary and correct. Lord TEYNHAM replied, and after a few words in disapproval of the general conduct of the police, the motion that the papers in _question be laid upon the table, was agreed to. The house then adjourned at seven o'clock. TUESDAY. LORD ELLENBOROIiaIt moved for returns relative to the financial condition of India. Similar returns had been procured last year from the Board of Control. What he wished to obtain now was an esti mate on the same plan for the Court of Directors of the East India Company. The noble lord also moved for returns of the tonnage of vessels trading to China.—Ordered. The Lunatic Commissioners' Bill went through the Committee, was reported, and ordered to be read a third time ou Monday night. HOUSE OF COIYIBIONS. MONDAY, FEBRUARY 11. THE QUAKER CASE. Mr. C. W. WYNN brought up the report of the committee, to whom the claim of Mr. Joseph Pease, (one of the society of Friends,) to sit us a member of the House of Uomuions, ou making his affirmation, had been referred. He said that the conunutee had given their best attention to the subject, but that they had found only three cases—one iu the llouse of Com mons, and two in the courts of law—that bore upon it. The committee did not offer any opinion on the question, neither would he state what his own opinion was; he should merely move that the report be laid on the table and be printed ; iu the event of its being printed and placed in the hands of members by Wednesday next, he should, on Thursday,=ove that the affirmation of Mr. Pease be received in lieu of an oath. --( Hear, hear.) Petitions for a law to enforce a better observance of the Sab bath were presented,—by Sir M. S. STEWART, from two places in Scotland;—by Lord MoopETH from a parish in Yorkshire. Petitions were presented by Mr. O'CONNELL from Kilworth, and three other parishes in Ireland, for the abolition of tithes and church rates; and from the operative shoemakers of Dub lin for a repeal of the union. Petitions for the abolition of Colonial Slavery, by Lord Mon PETH, from a parish in Yorkshire ;—by Mr. OwEN, from Milford. Notices were given, by Mr. TENNYSON, to move, on the 2nd of April, for a committee to inquire into and review the right assumed by the House of Lords to vote by proxy ;—by Mr. W . WHITMORE to submit a motion on the 25th of April respecting the corn laws ;—by ➢lajor BEAUCLERK, to move, on the 'lst of May, for the repeal of the duty on malt;—by the LOUD Aft Y o- to move, for leave to bring in a bill to amend the laws relating to corporations of royal burghs in Scotland. REPORT ON THE ADDRESS. Lord ORNIELIE appeared at the bar with the report on the address to his Majesty. On the question "'that the report be brought up," Mr. LANGDALE rose and said, that although it was extremely unpleasant, he could not, in justice to himself; and to, the large constituency who had sent him to that house, refrain from ex pressing his opposition to the opinion recently delivered by an hon. and learned civilian, (Dr. Lushingtou,) with reference to the oath taken by the Roman Catholics on taking their seats as members of Parliament. He was the representative of a large body of Protestant constituents, and if, by the interpre tation of the oath as given by the hon. and learned gentleman, lie was incapacitated from stating his opinion on any given subject, to that extent his constituents were, virtually, unrepre sented. If there was one question more interesting than ano ther to himself and his constituents, it was that which related to the state of the church establishment, which was likely very soon to come before Parliament; and yet, it was now asserted, that by the oath which he had taken, he was debarred from taking any part in the discussion of that question. This was a proposition which, if correct, placed the Roman Catholic mem bers of that house in a very awkward situation. It did not merely involve the question of church property, but extended to various other questions : if the interpretation he alluded to were correct, then he (Mr. Langdale) could no more interfere with respect to corporation property than he could in questions concerning church property. If any gentleman felt that Ro man Catholic members stood in a situation different from that of Protestant members, in the House of Commons, he was bound to state that opinion openly and fairly. He denied, however, that any such difference existed. He would go fur ther than that, and assert, that he had as much right as any member in that house to give his opinion on the subject of Church property. Ministers had advised his Majesty to call on Parliament to take into consideration the temporalities of the church. Now, he would assert that, as a Roman Catholic, look ing at the oath which he had taken, he (lid not stand in a situa tion different from that of his Majesty's ministers. The oath of the Roman Catholic member went to this :—that he would never exert any privilege he had obtained under the Catholic relief bill to the injury of the Protestant church. And what was the oath of a cabinet minister? Ile said :—" I do solemnly and sincerely swear, on the faith of a Christian, that I will never countenance any act against the Protestant religion, as by law established." Where, then, was the difference between a*Roman Catholic member and his Majesty's ministers ? The latter brought forward certain measures with respect to the church, not for its subversion, for they were sworn to support it; and why could not Roman Catholics speak and vote on ques tions which ministers, thus bound to protect the church, deemed it necessary to bring forward ? Yet, the hon. and learned mem ber for the Tower Hamlets had told them the other evening, that a Catholic member, by the oath which he had taken, was pre cluded from interfering with the temporalities of the church.— (Ilear, hear, and cries of "No, no.") Mr. O'CONNELL:—I certainly understood that to be the meanie _g of the hon. and learned member's remarks. Mr. LANGDALE continued :—The hon. and learned member for the Tower Hamlets certainly declared, that touching the temporalities of the church, and destroying the church, was the same thing. Now what was the destruction of the church ? Ministers and their friends would be loath to say that a reform of the church went to its destruction; and the right hon.. mem ber for Tamworth, and his friends would, perhaps, be inclined to pronounce a very slight interference with the property of the church, as tending to its destiuction. ( Ilear.) If he were to be told that he was not to go into the discussion of such ques tions, which were speedily to be brought on by the noLle lord —the Chancellor of the Lxchequer,--and to treat them a, •.ord ing to his awn opinions, then his constituents would be plated in a very unpleasant situation. It would give great satisfaction to the catholic members and to the country, torisave this ques tion set at rest. An hon. member said that, so long as the oath in question was taken, he thought Roman Catholic members were placed in a situation different from that of other members of that house. The oath meant nothing at all, if it did not mean that Roman Catholic members were plowd the church, placed in a situation different from other members. Sir FRANCIS VINCENT declared that if he, as a Catholic mem ber, were not allowed to speak and vote like other members of that house, he would resign his seat at once. Why was it, he should be glad to know, that he was allowed to animadvert on the civil list of the King,. if he were deemed incompetent to enter into discussions upon the temporalities of the church. Mr. Hume said, it was of greatimportance that the house and the country should be satisfied whether the doctrine laid down by the honourable and learned member for the Tower Hamlets, was that which government meant to support or not. The doctrine was so entirely destructive of the legislatorial func tions of Catholic members, that, though he had no difficulty in expressing his opinion on the point, au opinion in which he believed he was joined by most sensible men who gave it any consideration, yet it was very desirable that the law officers of the crown, should state their opinion ou the subject, and that his Majesty's ministers should state their sentiments upon it. Lord ALTHORP said, the house itself was the sole judge of the question, and the honourable member for Middlesex had no right to call upon ministers for their interpretation of the oath in question. Mr. HOME said he was principally desirous to know what was the opinion of the law officers of the Crown upon the point. Colonel DAVIES said the interpretation of such oaths should be left to hon. members themselves. (Hear.) For his part, he had no doubt at all upon the subject, notwithstanding the subtle mystification iu which it had been attempted to involve it. Mr. O'CONNELL said, that he would not allow any individual to dictate to him as regarded his belief. (Hear.) If he had taken the oath in question in the sense in which it was explained by the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets, he should not continue to be a member of that house. If the construction which that hon. and learned gentleman had put upon the oath was the construction according to which it was administered by the house, he (Mr. O'Conneit) must say that it was not upon such a construction that he had taken it; and if that were the case he should not have taken the oath, for he was well aware that an oath should be taken in the sense in which it was understood by the authority that administered it, provided the words were plain and obvious. Excluded as he (Mr. O'Connell) had been for upwards of twenty years, from his rights as a Catholic, solely by his respect for oaths, (hear, hear,) he would not allow any man to taunt him with having taken an oath in an equivocal sense. (Hear. hear.) The sense in which he had taken the oath in question was, that he was bound to protect the established church—that is to say, that he was bound to support the laws respecting it so long as they existed as laws, but as a legislator, he understood that oath to leave him at perfect liberty to alter and amend those laws. (Hear.) Such was the construction he had always put upon that oath : if it was an erroneous one, no Catholics should be allowed to take a part in the discussions relative to the pro jected alterations in the laws regarding the church—thatis to say, no Catholics should be allowed any longer to sit there as the members of a free deliberative assembly. (Hear, hear.) He had stated to the house, plainly and openly, what was the understanding in which he had taken that oath. If he was wrong in his interpretation of it, he would say, in God's name, let him be expelled forthwith from its walls, for he would not re main there liable to be charged with the equivocation of an oath. He begged to say that he meant now to oppose the bringing up of the report. He was sorry he felt it necessary, from au im perious sense of his duty to his country, to do so, but he could assure the house that none of those who thought with him on this subject would again address the house upon it, unless they should be driven to do so, by personal atacks and vituperation. He and his friends felt they were bound to contend against such an address, foot by foot, and to do all they could in opposi tion to the attemipt which his Majesty's ministers were making against the constitutional liberties of their country. He would not retract the epithets which he had applied to that address. Upon cool deliberation he felt justified iu characterising it as a brutal—as a sanguinary address, and he would seize every op portunity that the forms of that house afforded him to oppose its adoption. Mr. O'Connell then, at considerable length and with much warmth, defended himself from the charge of ingra titude to the present ministers. Ireland had ever sustained in them in their struggles, and their return now was a a propo sal to introduce a sytein of coercion there, and to deprive that unfortunate country of the benefits of the constitution. The right hon. Secretary for \lreland had told them, that a govern ment must be feared before it could be loved. Surely the English members of the first reformed parliament—'the first rem representatives of the people of England—would not adopt, would not countenance such a Robespierrian maxim. What was the plain, the obvious duty of his Majesty's minis ters ? Should they not have endeavoured to conciliate — should they not have endeavoured to do justice, before they talked of coercion, and before they came to parliament to ask for . powers beyond the law ? (Lear, hear, hear.) When his Majesty's ministers told him that they intended to make themselves feared in Ireland, he would beg to tell them, in return, that such a sentiment was not applicable to that gal lant and fearless nation. (Hear, hear, trout the Irish mem bers.) It was a piece of paltry hypocrisy on the part of English members to speak of their sympathy for the liberties and rights of Ireland, and yet to vote for the extinction of those liberties. Let the English members deal with that candour which was characteristic of Englishmen—let them speak out, and if they thought that the Irish were an inferior race, and that they did not deserve better treatment than was about being afforded to them, let them say so, and then he should understand them. There existed in Ireland an agricultural war and an agricultural agitation as well as a political agitation, and no two things could be more different or distinct, though they. had been so commonly and mischievously confounded. In snarly of the re mote counties of Ireland, the wretched agricultural labourers were reduced so low, that they thought 2s. a week good wages. (Hear.) The agricultural agitation which such wretchedness had long produced in Ireland was totally free from political or religious differences. It was solely the offspring of poverty, and party spirit had nothing to do with it. That predial agita tion arose from the want of employment, and it was impossible for a parliament like this to legislate property with regard to Ireland, ignorant as the majority of its members were of the rear state of that country, and depending, as they did, altoge ther for their information on the subject upon souse one of his Majesty's ministers. Ile did not say that the predial agitation in Ireland had dated its increase from the commencement of the present administration ; but it had greatly increased since the King ' s speech at the prorogation of the . last parliament, since the strong measures then adopted, and the increased ri gour to which recourse had been had to enforce the collection of tithes. There was less of political disturbances now in many parts of Ireland than had been known there for many years. In the county of Cork, where the inhabitants were upwards of 700,000, at the last assizes, but for some tithe meetings and some subsequent tithe prosecutions, there would have been scarcely a single prisoner for trial. (hear, hear, hear.) In the county of Kerry, with a population of 200,600, though eight months had elapsed since the previous assizes, there were only eleven prisoners confined in the county gaol. In the city of Limerick, the third city in Ireland, with a large agricultural population in its suburbs, there were only eleven prisoners confined in gaol. The county of Clare was now perfectly quiet; he believed that Galway was quiet too, and so were Sligo and Roscommon. The county of Mayo was said to be disturbed, and additional powers were, it is said, to be asked for with respect to that county. If he should hear them asked for his blood would boil with indignation. Ile knew that there bad been some recent slaughters by the police in that county. One of them was occasioned by the Marquis of Sligo's endeavouring to prevent the people from collecting the sea-rack on the coast. It had been their custom from time immemorial so to collect it, and, at all events, their right to do so should not be tried in the manner in which it had in this instance. It was by the agent of the property, who sat on the bench as magistrate, that it was decided that the people, in so doing, had come under the Wil ful 'trespass Act, and it was he who sent out the police with summonses against the people, the result of which was, that the unfortunate man was shot. It had been said that trial by jury had failed in Ireland. He would defy them to point out a single instance in which it had so tailed where the pt.or man or the peasant was the object of prosecution. if there were no other reason for his opposing the granting of extraordinary powers with regard to the county of Mayo, it would be the conduct of the magistracy and gentry iu that part of the country.—He pro ceeded to contend, at great length, that Ireland was not in such a state as to justify the granting of the powers demanded by his Majesty's ministers, to repress outrage and disturbance in that country; all that was required for the purpose was the due and vigorous exercise of the powers afforded by the existing laws. But, the truth was, ministers did not want their mea nt' es of coercion for the good of Ireland; they wanted them for another purpose. When he saw theui attempting to con found the political with the agricultural agitation of Ire land, he was convinced what was the real purpose for which those powers were required. He and his colleagues had been taunted for not having brought forward the question of the repeal of the Union ; it bad been looked upon as a sign tCI ni s 11 id proceeded. Enghind paid for the n property and income front 1801 . .£1 ic e of land and assessed taxes fropa 1811 la those taxes were repealed hi Ireland . of cowardice, and as a proof that they had abandoned ) ject; to accomplish which, they had :been returned t ment. But, he' would ask the house, 'of what use i, bringing forward of that question, or rather of the oa t in support of 'it-have been, when the vdiy• mention ' jest, as one of debate, was interdicted by the addre c l i i which he was now protesting ? To show, however , question had not been abandoned from weakness of he would say a few words on this subject of the repel Union. The Union itself was but an act of Parlio the repeal of it would but be an act of the legislature ' t far the question came under the cognizance of this b the question came before them as one of dismember ol would be as adverse to it as any hon. member could l° man could be a more ardent lover of his country, anal of her welfare than he was; but, he need hardly re; he did not look upon the repeal as a measure of d•O' ment. Au hon. member, somewhat too philosophic! reasoning, had declared the other night, in referenc‘, subject, that there could not be two legislative bodie" executive; but he (Mr. O'Connell), appealed to 0 , 1 declared that, with some exceptions, the Parliament e'' had practically refuted the honourable member's it' That Parliament had been charged with rottenness; b r ever been more rotten than the English Parliament, e' the Parliament which had last sat in that housl hear.) The object of ministers in the address was to the discussion of the important question of a repe j Union, and their conduct had been of a piece through political life. He had been said, the other even suffered judgment, upon this question, to go by del what was the fact? He had commenced the agitati repeal question in 1801, and had advocated it in every I-, at every meeting since that period. Ile continued unU' offered emancipation ; but he refused emancipation, ;1 was to be followed by a repeal of the Union. (He excitement in Ireland had continued until the qil reform began to be agitated in England. He had al ti sidered the measure of Parliamentary Reform in En as an end, but as a means; and he was induced.t o endeavours to stop the progress of agitation in trelit he might wait the event of what might be proposed ' country. Ile did wait, and saw an effectual liefiA introduced for England, and one of a similar tend! Scotland ; but, when it came to the turn of Ira miserable, useless, and jejune bill was brought in, . t of which, as he saw from the onset, was to be uuf The question of the repeal of the Union was left ii ber until the sitting of the reformed Parliament, 1. expectation, as it would appear, of justice being,i efforts, done to Ireland. , But the ministers had met the sto,, of her grievances by the clause in the address, vvhidy for the means to add to those grievances immeasurabl&l the house imagine, because he did not bring forward tk, ( question, that there were no arguments to support it? 1 1 ministers imagine that they could put down the questioni unconstitutional war they had proclaimed and con:men' the address ? The hon. and learned member then c opinions of Mr. Saurin, Lord Chief Justice Bushe, au t 1 Chancellor Plunkett on the Act of Union, which he den as a measure that was carried by the basest corrupt s could be practised in a state, and the most gross violati the rights of man and of nations. The hon. member ceeded to read returns of exports of Irish produce, 0 ; f ports into Ireland of English manufactures and foreign A during the years immediately preceding and following ti' A Union, showing that they had much decreased since that He said he only meant to show that lie had no desire to. from the discussion of the question—he was anxious to bc" soning, but would yield nothing to brute force. No farther from his thoughts than a dismemberment of his —he was too much a lover of that country to entertain for a moment. Leave Ireland to herself, and in thre• she would discharge her own share of the debt. Why to be mortgaged for the debt of England ? But the Union mischievous to England as to Ireland. How are the poor England and Scotland increased? By the wretched . Irish manufacturers. The misery of Ireland was findi in the vitals of England, and would eventually, if not d i utterly ruin and impoverish her inhabitants. Per would be said, that poor laws ought to be established in but he hoped they never would be inflicted on that (Cheers.) He was decided as to the impolicy of esta 4 poor laws in Ireland, although if he wanted to courti rarity, he could serve it by advocating their introit' but although they . would at first work wed, they would ally destroy the rich, and what was then to become of th, He was convinced that they would operate as an Agrar and that they would finally produce ruin. (Cheers.) no intention of threatening the government, but, if were used, the voice of the people of Ireland would ret cry for vengeance, horsible, illegal, but not unsuccessful there no distress at home? Did not the government he l ) cries of the starving and distressed manufacturers and ers ? In London alone there were 100,000 Irish. He 1 1 in the habit of embellishing, (laughter ;) he confined i' to facts. Let ministers reflect upon what must be the f of those persons, when the announce of the intention to coercive measures in Ireland must suggest to them hot wives, fathers, and 'mothers. He was aware that he lii, passed at great length upon the attention of the house,' had felt it his duty to do so, whilst there yet remained on Aver ~ ' ThrAe of more of liberty to Ireland. He would, day by day, (4,,, 5 , voice against the unconstutional course which ministei pursuing, until the sense of the people of England shoe pronounced upon it, and for his part, he did not belief the feeling of the people •of England was opposed to l' upon this occasion.—alear, hear, hear.) cottons I nfc a total of separate taxation on Great italu of . . . . . . £3 stating these facts he was not arguing against hi he believed that he was not a worse Irishman rig to do justice to the conduct of the people of ; at) It might b e sa id, how ever, t h at I re l an d, b ; Many of the articles export e d f rom t hi s coun t tiun of our taxes. That brought him to an impol Ple subject—namely, the increased consumptio essaries of life in Ireland since the union. The rapi. the trade of Ireland since the union will appeal Swin g table, which is taken on the averages of Inerated in trennial periods imports. 2,762,298 3,(113,021 4,164,98 5 4,299,493 6,535,068 6,008,273 7,491,890 • tu the alteration in the commercial laws regulatin, ourse between the countries it is impossible to con 3 an t t, but th ere i s no reason t o d ou bt th a t no de le 8 taken pl ace. Th e following table would tt P- r !ncreas e w hi ch had taken p l ace in t h e i mpor t ati ta ls for manufactures into Ireland since the unio ' c rag- " e Years, Woollen-yarn. Cotton-yarn. Cotton 1777 1 79 9 3 1800 1811 1820 1826 8,883 5,405 276,302 421 1,69 , 1,251 4 , 68( `2,87: 4,36 f 1,860 1,880 465,057 64;8,452 632,750 5513,396 972,036 1,219,37 4 2,510,303 ,was particularly anxious that the hon. member fi Torrens) should attend to these statements, L a i, stated that Ireland would be ruined if she were to P e e er °4 l ue s vi te e d r e t h t o e c a s t t e r r n y ti their o no f c t a h p e i o l n t h . emr member ( m . b A e r l f a o t i r. Cobbett), who argued that the inhabitants of E anle wretch e d i n exac t proportion to the quantil aerial Which they worked up into manufactures. ] ~ever, be said that the improvement which he hal I n the cotton and woollen manufactures had taken expense of the linen trade, which was the staple al Ireland. That, however, was not the case. more common at the present moment than to rE re was a pa rticular branch of trade was declining, whet only a diminution of profit.. The table ald now read would prove there had been no decli e t l i ? trad e i n Ireland i whilst, at the same time, the improvement n the cotton trade : Co Period. Yard Linen. Yards exported. 1777 1783 1790 1800 1810 1820 1826 20,140,770 18,652,424 34,191,754 36,112,369 40,751,887 48,265,711 51,947,413 •- • ,ha e " stated facts, which could only . be confuted by I declarations could shake their validity. Irel 4 111 e ,ing a manufacturing country, and it was found ti e tt Iles of manufacture which required hand labour : i„ e k executed in Ireland than in England. It vra It t ,`" Bl some manufactures could be begun better in England, and finished better in the latter cout jet ' 11°111 d be in the former. In this mann er the int a l ." countries were bound up together, and would 1 1 , 11 e tkhed policy which should tell the people of Belfa v ,„"toplete th'e ma nufactures which cannot be so well " t 1 as at Manchester," and to the manufacturers it ' .h ster ,to say " You s hall commence your manuf teiZ u s ga, you cannot do so as well as the manufac There was another mode of illustrat in g the i still improving condition of Ireland, since those Which the learned gentleman had dwelt upon "f e e " rapture ; he meant the consumption of the nece: thellar, tea, coals, and to which he might add, '°"° g win table would place the increase iu the c articles in an obvious light:— nau seat it ms uuty to uo so, wnust mere yet remaiueu e: . 1 , c e ,ra e , of more of liberty to Ireland. He would, ay d by day, ra r e Ye ars . Raw Sugar. Tea. Tobacco. voice against the unconstutional course which minister' ----- pursuing, until the sense of the people of England sho Cwt. Lb. Lb. pronounced upon it, and for his part, he did not belieP 1777 212,620 808,748 4,409,761 3 the feeling of the people •of England was opposed to It 178 3 1 40 , 662 1,703,855 4,261,639 2 upon this occasion. —(Hear, hear, hear.) , 1798 181,406 1,858,791 2,939,5 a r 9 3 1800 217,122 2,773, 0 7 0 7,868,282 3 Mr. S. RICE said he hoped that the house would bear, 1811 330,29 9 3,340,331 8 , 364 , 147 him whilst he attempted to answer the hon. gentlemao 5 1820 269,499 3,316,021 4,146,454 C possessed not, indeed, the eloquence of the hon. member, ;? 18.0 301,903 3,548,293 3 ,818,636 felt that he was on a perfect equality with him as rega rd 7 1830 321,199 • 3 , 887 , 955 4,060,077 I 7 tachment to the land of his birth. (Hear.) In what he 'lwo address to the house he would deal chiefly with matters 0 ear s 1832 342,701 4,153,302 I' B following the hon. member for Dublin in the statements Ye ar ending Jan. 5,1828. he had made,—and thanking him sincerely for having+ Year ended Jan them,—in order to prove before the parliament of the b u t there w as ano th e r ar ticle which would also exhib kingdom that the legislative union had been productive 4 ' e reased con s u m ption to the house, and which was to Ireland. It was unnecessary for him to undertake to rorthy of notice, as the consumption was by no mea that the union had not been injurious to England, becatent upon a reduced duty. The article he allude no part of this country had such a thing been even for i tu skY• (Hear and a laugh.) Hon. members mig eget he went suggested. The right hon. gent. at some length de•i i quoted the consumption of whisky lest it shou the Whigs from the charge of neglecting the interests 1 , ) . ,,e had found e d hi s cas e exclusively on the consumpt land, and cited many instances to show that they had uni7..._'eessaries of life. (Hear.) The consumption stood been amongst the most zealous of its advocates and fri.L . Triennial He would now proceed to consider the financial condirlitieriods Home s rots. Periods. Holm Ireland before and after the union. The inference whicl•---,., ' p ,______- hon. and learned member wished to be drawn from his '' GE Gallons. ments upon this point was, that Ireland was prosperous t i 1 78 , 2 2,076,855 1790 2,5 the union, and had become wretched since that period• e ; 1763 1,771,513 is 2d. 1800 4,1 the house see how the matter really stood. This was a qu i . 14 4 1,43 , 3,502 • 1810 3,6 which must be decided by facts, and therefore he trusteuj 1820 3,E the• house would attend to the statement which he was ab 17 92 3,520,082 1826 6,t make. In 1791 the income of Ireland was £1,190,000, a 0 i . 7 53 I 436,410 Is 2d. 1830 9,1 expenditure £1,150,000. During the ten succeeding yea ! , llu s -,—• .. ' 3,9400a0 t 1832 B,i expenditure went on increasing in the ratio of nearly doubf,_ -` dears. income, so that at the termination of this period the IS T i--....... was £2,181,000, whilst the latter amounted WI:S,SW At the time of the union, after providing . for the interestereile ttention, who were of the English members, 1 lere was another subject to which he was anxiou debt and other charges up o n th e I r i s h revenue, th tir.- 68 : 11 erabers who were in the habit of asserting t.l mained only a surplus of £460,000 to defray the expe•e-v.al the whole civil, military, and political administration of Ire enabl e Parliament bad done nothing for Ireland. 'l'. hon about the house to enter into the full force of the fi That was the case at the starting point. Now, did the non t e ; learned member think that the affairs of the country . coal of union e g t, it should be stated beforehand, that by imerial parliament was bound to cc carried on with a surplus of £460,000? At the period oannent of tho se s u ms which the Irish . parliament ' consolidation of the bxehequers, the charge fur the inter habit of von the debt in Ireland amounted to £5 906,006, whilst the in and manufa, tu g for the purposes of charity, literatur res—that is, £73,277 per annum. T was 'only £5,700,000, leaving a deficiency of £200,000. Was to be bindi n g for twenty years and no longer. was not a state of things which should induce any one t( tiou was, had imperial parliament honestly f , the im pose that the condition of Ireland would be bettered b contract ' L 'et the lea rned gentlema n and th e othe having a separate legislature. And now with respect to of repeal come Lion. At the period of the union there was in Ireland I would then, at le ast i n t h at stro ng point, make out ; upon carriages, horses, and servants, besides another ti• repeal. (Hear, b forward and prove that they had m ear.) But, so tar from the fact be often referred to in the speeches of Mr. Grattan, as being imperial parlian a , contract — of the greatest grievances of which the people of that coo £1,465,540 ( 7a -'; - - ,27 7 multiplied by £2O) —it had ac complained : he meant the hearth-tax. Those taxes wee not less than £ 6 ,979,000. (Hear, hear.) The ac nt had not fulfilled the the creation of an imperial Parliament, but, on the coot thus : were repealed by it.—He would now turn his attention t'• Sums voted before th e un i on f or encouragement trade of Ireland. At the time of the union duties were ha manufactures, charity, and schools . . • upon the exportation of raw commodities a solecism in lei To t hi s t h e l e gislatu re stood pledged for twenty yea . . • • tion which was almost unexampled. All bacon, beef,"live q Such grants would have been and other articles, paid a duty upon exportation. In ado; The amount granted by the imperial parliament li to this there was a rcgular system of corn laws establishe,• been . . • • . . • • • tween England and Leland, as complete as that now eV' b y parliament since the u Thus the excess granted between Great Britain and the continent. No man livise iota is . . . . . . . imagined, would deny that the exportation of corn an4l (Hear, hear.) But that was not all. The followir produce into this country, since the union, had been bole loin,llletided in üblic works in Ireland since the uni to both parts of the empire. It had been said that the C74l.in addition to the large sue gift, or ot h er wise, tion of articles of raw produce was a proof of the poverty' . just l44 quoted:— country, and not of its wealth; but did net the creation of . Loans from Consolidated Fund—roads, has. produce afford employment to the labourer, and was he not. ho urs, boards of hea lth, bridges, relief and in proportion to the labour which he performed? (Hear.) l . *lnployment of poor, &c. • • . 6,42 quantity of exports from a country was the measure of t i 2,5:: Repayments • • • wand for labour existing there, which, after all, was the ' --: most wanted in Ireland. The members who attacked En • Balance . - * - 3,8 c• for her conduct towards Ireland did not recollect the se . si, ' , Nab no less a s um than £564. 000 Oe• 2d , w 1 taxes which England paid. From all the taxes which p linrka and employment o f t h e poor. (Hear, hear. most severely upon England, Ireland not only claimed, b aifathilZ item connected with this outlay of the I joyed, an exemption. Ile would state to the house some to (low the extent to which the separate taxatien of Great