The Sun. — London, England, 1847-02-06 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 5. the LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool • :k at Five o'clock. EXCHEQUER-BILLS AND RAILWAY DIVI DENDS. Lord BROUGHAM moved for a return of the It ices of Exchequer-bills, from the Ist of Fe uary, 1846, to the Ist of February, 1847, and for a return at the dividends raid on railway stock du ring It'te same period. He also moved for a r " the names of all the holders of railway shat es ott the e it of February, 1847, who were Irish proprietors. act was not one of mere idle curiosity, but as it 8 1)p ear, ti that there was some intention of assimilating Jr. Anerd with England, it was but right that this informa tic 'a she .uld be given in order that they might know how to legis late. He desired this the more as he found that sti st,itet sent had been made last night in another place, the ()fejt ict, the express object, of which was to raise the Price o f railway shares by distributing money through out the country, so that those shares which stood at 1001. might ' be raised to 2001. Ha would take that oppor tunity t )f vindicating himself from a grievous misrepre. 'emetic n. He did not generally care about misrepre sentatk n; but he had been so painfully assailed by so many letters, that he wished to put himself right, for he was described as one of the most cruel and hard-he erted individuals in existence. It was stated that he wished to raise the price of bread. What he actually said was, that it was better that bread should be dear rather than cheap in a time of scarcity ; for if wheat v (ere to be brought to market cheap at such a period tl he whole produce would quickly be bought up; and thit e s , if there was a scarcity in the month of Febi liarYt that scarcity would become fa mine in , the month of June. The very words he need w ete, that he would rather br ea d was d ear than cl leap, lest scarcity should become dearth, and dearth be converted into famine. His Noble Friend (the D & ike of Rutland) had put his establishment on three.-fi fths of their usual allowance, and he had don e the slam e. The question of price did not affect such P. emotes as his Noble Friend and himself, but it did natural] .y affect the poor labourer, and therefore he de eired th at the bread should be kept up, so that the whole of the s applies should be exhausted before they got the fresh h. invest in. He thought that in times of distress, espetial ly, public men should not be misrepresented. Lord STANLEY perfectly agreed with his Noble :Friend (Lord Broughate) that public men should not be misrept caseated, but he had stated that a great and corn- Prebeneeive measure which was introduced the other slight in another place was brought in solely !for th e purpose of raising the price of shares. A mort t frivolous misrepresentation could not be made. He did not intend to stop then to urge the policy of the ineasur a of his Noble Friend, because, unless the interpo sition of the Crown were exercised to pass it into a law, without the intervention of their I- ordships, it would shortly come before them fser dist session, but he could Hot forbear stating that 'the obje :t of the Bill was not to raise the value of rail way sha res in Ireland, but for the purpose of promoting its inter, arts, without adding one shilling to the taxes of the Peop le of this country.—(Hear, hear.) It was for carrying out works of great public utility, which, with out th e aid of the. State, must be discontinued at the very ti m e when they were most necessary—for the purpo se ef encce araging attd improving the condition of the agrieoltural labourers of that country, and for fur nishing tl e me ans for giving constant employment to a large port ion ( tf the population for the next four years at least, bat not withdrawing them from agricultural employs] ent by giving them too easy or too well-paid work. rile, object was to facilitate improvements in the internal cc r amunication of the country, at a time when capital fro so private individuals was checked, on account of the dep iorable condition of the pe pie. Entertaining great rasp set for his Noble Friend in another place (Lord G. Bentin ek), and for his Noble and Learned Friend in that Hutu to (Lord Brougham), he could not allow it to go forth that ; the scheme propounded by his Noble Friend had for i! .s object to increase the value of railway shares, because i t had tor its object, as he had said, the promo tion of great national improvements of great public advanti4 e, without casting any additional burdens on the peop le of this country.—(Hear, hear.) Lord B ROUGHAM thought his Noble Friend must have bet at attending to something else, and not being able to l ie.ten to two things at once, had attributed a statemet it to him which he did not make. He did not say that the object of the Bill was for the purpose of bene fiting pri mate individuals by enabling them to sell their shares at a higher value than they could at present. Un doubted] y the grou ndwerk of the measure was to apply capital t o Irish rv.ilways, and to enable railway owners to sell their railway shares. What he stated was, tha t for,evssry tool, worth ef shares sold out another 1001. worth would be bought in. He had not read the debate o f La st night—in fret, he was not often in the habit of re ading them—but a friend had informed him that the B ill would enaele the holders of shares to sell them, an' L, to invest their capital in others. He had no monoma aia against Tailwas s; he only wanted to see there ca tried out ar, the expense of their promoters, and not at tl ie expdn'A of others. The !Duke 'A RICHMOND could not allow the mea sure to. 'De disposed of in the present manner without easing a fk.:w words on the subject. It was a measure calculat tee to be of more permanent service than any measur e which had ever been introduced since he had been in th at House. It appeared to him to commence at the right end—(Cheers)—and would induce capital Jove from this country to Ireland, and the conse q' mice would be that the Irish people would consume %genre exciseable articles, be better able to live on the produce of their own agriculture; it would improve the rtnorals of the people, and it would also be the means of (enabling them to consume more manufactured :goods, and thereby extending the home markets, which after all, was the foundation of the great prosperity of this country. He did not oppose the motion of his Noble and Learned Friend, and he hoped that there would be enough English and Scotch Members to carry that Bill through who were not in the least connected with railways. (Cheers.) The people of England were not called upon to give money by this measure to the people of Ireland; the measure was one which wculd take nothing out of the pockets of the People of England, but would give support to the people of Ireland.—(Cheers.) Earl FITZWILLIAM said that ho had nothing to offer in oppcsition to the motion of the Noble and Learned Lord. He regretted the tone of the conversa tion which had taken place on the subject. It might be considered that the Noble and Learned Lord had some sidelong view in wishing to have the names of all those, persons who might be possessed of shares in Irish railways. He was aware, on looking to the votes et tie House of Commons, that a measure had been in• Ittoduced into that House for the purpose of facilitating `the making of railroads in Ireland. He then looked anxiously to see whether the Bill was brought in by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government ; be was disappointed, however, to see that the Noble Lord was not the author of the Bill ; but 'when he saw, not from the official accounts, but from sect:rants, though not official, perhaps quite as accurate, that the Bill was in such very able hands as the Noble Lord's who had introduced it, he was much gratified,— '(Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord had exhibited zeal, industry, and ability, which had entitled him to the gratitude of the Irish people and the United empire. He wished that the measure had been int the hands of the Government, and that they had had the credit of introducing such a crowning measure as had been introduced.—(Cheers.) He hoped there 'ould be no interference with the prerogative to pre -vent the measure passing.—(Cheers.) lie came down to the house determined to express his opinions upon the s'abject ; and, considering the relation in which he itt - '.od with her Majesty's Government, he felt it his duty ft° state to them what course he meant to pursue. He could not conceive that, as they were not the au thors of the measures, it would not be agreeable to them that he should rise and express his opinions in favour of the measure.—(Cheers.) In whatever hands the measure may be in, when it came up to their Lord aillps' House, he was determined to give it his most strenuous and undivided support. He certainly thought Meat the Railway system should be in the hands of the Government rather than of individual members or com panies, who would be supposed always to study their Own interests rather than the great interests of the whole country, and especially Ireland in its present state. Ile had deep rooted opinions that the whole railway &system should be in the hands of the Government. It Nas a most anomalous thing, that all the means of travelling should be in the hands of some - great companies. These opinions he had entertained and expressed, for many years, to their Lordships. He hoped the Government would take the measure into their own hands, as he believed it would be ofsmore use than any other measure which had been brought under the notice of the House by her Majesty's Ministers. Now he was not going to express any opinion, either for or against the landlords of Ireland, but he thought that the me asure which contemplated them provement of the country through the instru mentality of one class could not possibly produce those beneficial results which theyought to contemplate. lie thought, connected with this great measure of railways, there ought to be a system of emigration, if not carried on, at least largely assisted. by Government.--c Hear, hear.) He thought that the persons employed upon railways ought to have the opportunity of emigrating gradually and he was decidedly an advocate for some gradual sys tem of emigration going on throughout the whole sur face of the land. Upon these grounds he was decidedly of opinion that, instead of these railways being intrusted to private companies, they ought to be taken up and constructed ay Government at the public expense.—(Hear. hear.) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he did not in twad to oppose the return, nor did he apprehend that the Motion would have given rise to any discussion. After what had fallen, however, from the Noble:Lord, who had just resumed his seat, he must be allowed to say a worn; or two. The particular preroga iZtthe Noble Earl h a d a ll u d e d to w as one of the constitutional preroeatives attached to the Crown, and one which • It would be injudicious and unwise to abandonin in any instance.Asyet it had not been whether it would iteerposed to stop this measure, but depend upon the opinieoxereised by the Crown would pi n ion entertained by her Majesty's advisers as to the decP was likely to produce.e tui t s le ilief ub t l h i e c i m n e te a r s e u s r t e . He was sur p r i se d t h at this u- on ob servation should have been Made on a motion like this, and especially one which had been made without notice. The Earl of WINCHILSEA could not refrain from making a few observations, for no m an f elt more deeply the. s dist7ss. o : f his fellow-coun trymen than h e ;e t c t , he give all cre di t to her Ilia --,,Aernment foe their intent;- * and while 441ve _fully appreciai.ed the difficulties with which tile) , o.tO.,eoentend, he still must sa that the measures a IloPotied to introduce w ou ld never prove of any permanent utility to the people of Irelaa'l. Th population of that country had been doubled within the last twerty years, and it was perfectly el: ar that the land could th,ver provide sufficient employment for the poor of that country, and they would be driven into some extensive measure ot colonisation to relieve the country of its surplus population. lie had always advocated some system of colonisation, yet if it were to be carried out to any effective extent, it would require an outlay of at least 4,000,0001. or 5,000,C09/. per an num. This was not a greater sum than the plan pro posed by his Noble Friend in the other House, and he did think that if that plan were adopted, it would, by facilitating intercourse throughout the county, be productive of excellent results, and return a large advantage to this country for the outlay that was made tleffrct it. Yet, at the same time, he still believed that the Government would be driven into some great and comprehensive scheme for the perma nent improvement of Ireland. TRANSPORTATION. In reply to the liarquis of SALISBURY, Earl GREY stated that the papers on transportation would be laid on the table in the course of a few days. EDUCATION. The Marquis of LANSDO WNE, after laying some papers on the table, proceeded to state to their Lord ships the nature of the minute which the Privy Coun cil had lately adopted with respect to education. He lid he might have laid the minute on the table without offering any remarks pith respect to it, as the altera tions which it proposed would be carried out without the intervention of either Houses of Parliament ; but he thought it right, as early in the Session as possible, to put their Lerch-hips in possession of the views which her Majesty's Government entertained on the subject of the education of the people. He confessed it would have given great satisfaction to him it' he had been enabled to state that the Government were prepared with a plan of public education for the people of this country, su largo, so comprehensive as at once to put the population, with respect to education, in that condition in which it was in some parts of Europe, in which an uneducated child was an almost solitary exception, and in which it might be said, "that edac•ttion was con sidered univereally necessary." But he was bound to state that it had not appeared to her Majesty's Govern ment that they could practically effect a system of education upon a large and universal scale. It un doubtedly might have been attempted, but it could only have been attempted with serious, if not with over whelming, difficulties. It could they thought only be made comprehensive, or, at least, so comprehensive as to include in the same plan, and in the same schools, placed under the control of the Government, not only all conditions of the people, but of all religious denomi• nations ; and the longer he hail observed the progress of the question, the more convinced he had become of the dtflieulties which would have to be encountered in attempting a system of education on a scale so enlarged, and with views so extensive. These difficulties were not new, and he appealed in corroboration of this to his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Brougham), who had been so honourably and so valuably connected with the progress of education, and stands connected with the pro motion of a general system of education, such as her Ma jesty's Government would consider proper to be sup ported. It might Lie said that that which individuals had failed to do the Government might effect. This was not so in the case of education, as all the efforts of Government would be met by feelings of mistrust and jealousy among two classes of the people, one of whom, consisting of perhaps the most pious and conscientious persons, objected to education being carried on at all in a mixed school ; the other class being that not unim portant one which deprecated entirely all interference of the state in matters of education. When ho stated that these were two powerful classes of objectors, he did not mean to say that their opinions were at all universal. It could not, however, be supposed that there were not many learned and religious persons who considered that although the dangerous path to learning should not be trod without the light of religious instruction to guide them, still he thought that it was quite possible to educate under the same roof' children of different denominations, and holding various religious opinions. The Government had there fore come to the conclusion that it was not expedient to introduce any general or extended measure of educa tion. It did, however, appear to the Government, that it was nee- scary to give, under various heads, some assist ance towards the establishing and extension of education beyond that which had hitherto been set apart for that purpose, and also to stimu late efforts of those individuals and societies under whose patronage the schools had already been supported. Their Lordships would be glad to know what had been the operation of the existing Bill. He was glad to say that there had been a progressive increase in the grants that had been made between the years 1833 and 1846. The grants during that period amounted to 490.0001, and this sum had secured education annually for 700,000 children. All the schools to which grants were made had been inspected, and he was glad to say that a num ber of schools who did not require grants had petitioned the Council to have inspectors sent down to examine into the condition of their institutions. In addition to those included in the grants he hail mentioned, there were a number of diocesan and normal schools that had received assistance. We now come to the sugge-tions which, though not of great importance, yet they sit in the tight direction. The first was, that the inspection be more frequent, and that the establishment should be sufficient for inspection once a year. To insure this, the addition of three or four inspectors was made. The next subject to which he would invite the attention of their Lordships was the rep ins from the schools. Most of these reports showed one great difficulty, and that was not only a de ficiency of masters competent to their duties, but also cf assistants fit for their duties. It was, therefore,preposed that in all good schools the masters should be allowed to tike apprentices from among the best boys, and for each apprentice the master should have an allowance granted, the guardians, inspectors, and visitors, having the right of recommending those boys who were most fit for the duty, and thus a regular supply of school masters instructed and trained for their position. It was proposed, beyond this, that from the apprentices so trained for the purpose of adding to the general stock of schoolmasters, a certain number should be selected for the purpose of entitling that number, having con ducted themselves well, and usefully contributed to carry on the discipline of the school—he said a certain num ber would be selected for the purpose of having exhibi tions for normal schools, thus constituting another element in thir progress towards the station of school masters. But not only was it their intention to grant these exhibitions, but, as there would be probably a certain number of persons intended for the office of schoolmasters that might not be after all, although they might have con ducted themselves properly, although they might have taken pains to avail themselves of the ad vantages offered them, although they might have bene fited to a certain extent, still after all this training, they might not be found fitted for the office of schoolmasters, and it was, therefore, proposed that an arrangement should be made in which he had the satisfaction of stating that the Noble Lord at the head of the Treasury, and his Right lion. Friend the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, had expressed their entire concurrence. An arrangement had been made by which a certain number of these apprentices, not becoming school masters, should be entitled to employment in the revenue departments of the state. This would con stitute a double encouragement for these young men, by which a greater number might be qualified to attain the office of a schoolmaster ; and if found unfitted for that office, still Government would not lose the benefit of their services in another of its departments. There would be of course for the purpose of carrying out this system, a periodical examination of the pupils, and this, also, would have the effect of advancing them in their progress towards that office. He now came to another subject which he considered must be materially altered to affect the general course of education.—(Hear.) There was no class of men in this country who had more claim upon the gratitude of the country, or who were better entitled to the attention and favour of the Govern ment than the schoolmasters of England. There was no class of men more unlikely to reap, in a worldly sense, the reward of their toils and exertions. Many of those who had considerable influence over the character and interests of the children, saw them ad. vancing to prosperity while they were themselves chained down to their laborious exertions in a state of hopelessness and without requital, and, in many in stances, dispirited by their want of success ; their feel ings chilled by want, and checked by penury. It was, therefore, proposed that a small provision should be made for the schoolmasters in their old age ; and that any person who could show that they had for fifteen years conducted, in an unexceptionable manner, a public school should be entitled to the provision. —( Hear, hear.) This provision would be made upon the reports of the inspectors made to the Treasury at the period of their visitation. It was proposed, in connexion with these schools to es tablish places of industry, or workshops, so that children during their leisure hours might receive instructions in some useful craft, and the gentlemen in the neighbour hood would be stimulated to give their assistance and co-operation to those schools ; but it would also tend to obviate what had always been felt as a great e vil, namely, th a t o f parents withdrawing their children from the school, from what they considered useless'- earning, ith a view o f putt i ng them to something w hi c h th e y thought would b e more useful to their fam ili es. l trusted, ho wever, that the introduction of this systemle pf,r)uonved e m nt are indeed already established, and are ye h ry e • s s e uc s c c e h s o s would effect a great change.schools Some of t a th n a d t de h si e re fo h r ad im at the present moment. He was happy to say religion, but he should notenvery oin general his duty beti-mong all the ministers of c i o-Aeration h d d not declare among all den • ominations he h a d rece i ve d th e most able assistance from of England. N o t a day a m ssed the clergy of th e Ch urc h ee,,,, ofp the wont recei v i ng letters entinuallv e mpfeo for the children of th e i r peeishes9nat of such instruction nd4 say, that the exertion s th ey had made te ha w d as been emi nently to successful in alleviating the ' evil. An excellent by account of the benefit which was wrought this diffu sionpamphlet of education was given in th e of a clergy man named Dawes, who had su ccee d e d in establishinga school in his parish, and had so completely altered the character of the place, that whereas it had been (Latin guished for vice and immorality ten years before it was how equally eminent for the reduction of crime, and the improvement of the whole of its inhabitants. He had also succeeded by the success of his schools, that he had completely broken down prejudice, and the feeling of class had been done away with, and the farmers sent their children to the same schools as those which their labourers attended. And it was even a fact, that farmers from distant parts sent th..?ii children to beeed is the - village ; in order that they might have the benefit of at tending on Me. Dames , s schools. This leas a great triumph. This was at King's Salford, in Hampshire. This statement he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) had made, because it Wal a striking proof of the benefits of edncation. As another instance of the benefit of these schools—in one of these schools 15S children had been, out of their little savings—out of the presents of their —(Hear, hear.) Ile a t a o ti p e j u p r a c t hase edgr l e s a / t . worth books. froth the establishing of' these industrial schools.: and r i e t s p w e a c s i a a l 1 13 ; m o fro intendedttheir connexion c t o o t a i es associate w t e i t t h h t e h m e w w r i , t r h k h t t h n e t se % s . 0 , r f k o houses, and to establish libraries in them. Great com plaint had been made of the want of books, and of the difficulty of obtaining cheap sets, and it was, therefore, intended, out of the grants of last session, to give sets of books to these schools. lie was quite aware that this scheme fell far short of the necessity of the case, and of providing a general instruction for the whole of the peo ple. but yet it was a great step, and he trusted it would prove effectual in at least approaching to a remedy of the evil. From his own experience, he fully anticipated that every assistance would be rendered by the ministers of religion, but he must repeat that he should not be doing his duty in speaking, of the zeal of those gentle men, if he did not say that, of all denomin itions, the clergy were pre-eminent, short as it was, he believed the scheme would prove beneficial to the country. Lord BROUGHAM was sure nothing could be better than this system which he had just proposed of corning to Parliament for the money to carry out some plan of education. It was evident they had no sufficient plan. He lamented as much as his Noble Friend that they found themselves just as far as ever from having a national, a public, or general system. That was no fault of theirs or any other Government, but it arose from some evil in the state of society, which while it lasted would baffle all attempts to obtain universal edu cation. He was no friend to compulsory education. People who generally complained of the want of educa tion, wished to know why they did not adopt the se stem of Prussia. Did they know there the system of education was almost a military system? Did they know that if they took a recipe from a physician in this country, he could not, as happened to a friend of his, get it made up when they applied to a druggist, without going through the hands of a physician regularly educated there? Everything there was compulsory. But that sort of thing would not do here, although it was all very well in Prussia, where the people were too ignorant to feel the evil. An Eng lishman was net to be forced, for the more you at tempted to compel him, the farther he would recede. Let them, however, provide cheap schools, and they would stimulate private beneficence, and the people would be encouraged to send their children to the schools, and then by degrees, but only by degrees, would they lead to general education. Let them give a portion of the money necessary for these schools, and they would bring the sympathies and the co-operation of the people into play. The Board of Education had adopted this plan with a view not to supersede, but to aid private exertion, and nearly 500,0001. had been advanced very advantageously since 1832 for that purpose. Itiucation was the best aid of religion and the best guardian of morality. All his own experience, and all the experience of the criminal law which he or other judges concurred in, the opinion was that punishment was no preventive of crime compared with shame. But compel the criminal to refund the thing he has stolen within forty-eight hours, and he would never again commit the same offence. No man committed a crime without an object, and that generally was to avoid shame. The forger, unless he attempted to run away, committed forgery in the hope of avoiding the shame of bankruptcy. That was the sort of view taken of the subject, and, in very few cases, and in a very small degree, punishment was not heeded. What, then. was the remedy? Why, prevention. The crimi nals came in almost all cases from an inferior class of society. Their Lordships were not members of that class.—(Hear.) It was not persons in their rank who helped to swell the list of criminals. The proper remedy for this evil was to educate the youth of the country at a very early age, and then to instil into their minds such feelings. as in their Lordships and the higher classes, prevented the outbreak of such evil passions. Their Lordships might depend upon it that a wide spread and general infant education would do more to prevent crime than all the criminal laws, executions, transportations, and penitentiaries These were his reasons why age • neral and well defined system of infant education should be brought forward and supported by the Government. The Church and Dissenting communities were most zea lously bent upon improving the education of the masses. It would be ungrateful for him not to notice their exertions But between the Church and the Dissenters, however, there was a feeling of controversy which marred their united exertions, the sole object of each party seemed to be victory, and both of the parties threw impediments in the way of an extended scheme of education, which were all founded upon controversial opinions and dogmas. It was his opinion that a system of super vision could not be maintained over the Dissenters, because they were divided into so many sections—the Church of England was one, and could therefore be more easily cultivated by the regulating body, and he was therefore of opinion, however he might have op posed it before, that it would be much the best way to bring forward a general scheme of education under the control of the Church. Such a system should be at once introduced, and if the Dissenters did not like to take the benefit of the measure, they must leave it alone ; but he was quite sure that all the better class of Dissenters would soon adopt the measure, and thereby incalculable advantages would result to the State. He thought it would be also advisable to estab lish central normal schools in various parts of England, for the purpose of educating and preparing a class of schoolmasters and teachers. In the schools established he thought, too, that it would be a good thing if the Government were to adopt the system of taking quarter pence from the children. The parents were much more likely, when they paid something for their children's education, to see that they attended the school regularly. With respect to the proposed plan for giving pensions to the schoolmasters, he thought that the period named, fifteen years, was too short a period to entitle them to a pension. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—That term was to the minimum period. Lord BROUGHAM—In that case he would not have so much objection. Ho also thought that an improved system of education was highly desirable. Ile wished in conclusion to impress upon their Lordships the neces sity for establishing upon a large scale, infant schools for the education of the children of the poor. The Bishop of LONDON said he should trespass very shortly on their Lordship's time after what had been said by several Noble Lords, but the subject was one which he could not allow to pass without some ob servations. He wished, in the first place, to express the satisfaction with which ho had heard the clear and candid statement of the Noble Marquis. He thought the steps which the Government proposed to take were exceedingly wise and judicious. The important features of the plan were inspection and encouragement by pecu niary grants and pensions to those engaged in normal or training schools. He considered that no system, however wisely contrived, unless properly and vigilantly superintended—not a superintendence induced by jealous or private curiosity, but a superintendence by real friends, who were anxious to have the funds voted by the Government, or given by private and public beneficence, devoted to the purposes for which they were intended, and not wasted and thrown away, was the only superintendence that could really promote a good and efficient system of education. From the first introduction of education, aidtd by grants from the Government, he had pressed upon the clergy the great advantage which they would derive by calling in the inspectors, and the preju dice formerly entertained with respect to them had de - parted, and the assistance of the inspectors was found most beneficial. He thought it right to state that the inspectors had discharged their duty with courage in the most unobjectionable manner, and with the utmost con sideration and regard for the feelings of the clergy— and so long as they continued to follow that line of conduct, so long would they meet with the utmost facilities during their periodical visits. Then normal schools had not so much to contend against the want of funds as the want of efficient means to work them. — (Hear.) Such as the schoolmaster was, such would be the school. Therefore, he was satisfied that her Majes ty's Government could not act more wisely than in pro moting the extension of normal schools, and by training up schoolmasters in the way mentioned, would induce them to emulate each other, and to fit themselves to perform a creditable part in the exhibition which took place from time to time. He could not help suggesting to the Noble and Learned Lord the ex; ediency of his paying a visit to some of the best conducted normal schools, in which he would find that many of the suggestions he had made were in actual operation.—(Hear, hear.) For instance, lineal drawing had not only been practised for some time in the National, but in the Normal schools also.—(Cheers.) Then the Noble and Learned Lord had suggested the establishment of such schools in different parts of the kingdom, but at that time there were several in exit ence; there was one in Chester, one in York, Durham, Salisbury, and Exeter; so that that great want of which he had spoken had been partially supplied. He also suggested the expediency of making the children pay, what he called, " quarterly pence." Now, there was scarce a National school, especially in London, where " weekly pence" was not paid. the payment quarterly was objectionable. In fact, if the payments were not more frequent, there was a great probahility that none would be made. In some cases a great portion of the expense of the schools was paid in this way. He only mentioned these things in order to show the Noble Lord the great improvements that had been made during the last few years in those schools. In the school at Chester to which he (the Right 11ev. P re late) had alluded, there were several pupils who when the proper time came, would pass their examina tions, and evince perhaps as much knowledge of morals and phile sophy as those in the schools of modern Ath e ns, for whose i nstitutions the Noble and Learned Lord had so much res p ect.—(Hear, he ar.) There was one part of the statement of the Noble Mar quisworkhouse meant the on which he should reserve his opinion until he had obtained further information —he schools, the importance of which could not be be assimilated to the national schools so far as the mode of instruction was over rated; and it should not be forgotten that it was ad visable that those sc hools should concern these workhouse schools. Ho had visited one in in which the children ham), and he was sure, another own parish (Ful sensibly ed. He had visiteds were more happy, morecleanly,hear.) In looking amused, did not exist —(hear, contrasting their at the children, he could not help con been, if they had condition with what it would have meho t: o r more been under the roofs of their parents. He had, as his Noble Friend knew, taken a lively interest in the esta ' blishment o f i n f an t schools ; he had been i nstrumental in establishing the first infant school at Chester. He was aware, o w ing to the tender ages of the that nothing of a controversial nature could be in traduced ; but sts they were setnivaries, or 11'. I - r,, to the training schools, religious instruction eue ht to . be imeerted at the earliest period in the l ar g e towas— (Hear, hear) —especially as owing to the frequency with which the children are taken from the schools, ' for the purpose of being set to work, they were deprived A, -47 7 ' 4 1c' ' of the benefit of religious training. That instruction I ought to bc imparted even if there was no chance of fi ' fishing it. He earnestly hoped that no disparagement would be thrown on the national religion in carrying out the improvements and extensions which the Privy Council had adopted, for which he begged to thank them most sincerely. The Bishop St. ASAPFI had no objection to the so lection of teachers from the lowest ranks of the people; but he considered that a great evil would be in flicted on the country if they were all taken from those ranks. The majority of the schoolmasters and school mistresses in England were taken from the rails of lit tle shopkeepers or small iarmers, who were but a step above the labouring classes. Out of twenty he found that only two had been in the national schools. He considered that the teachers ought to be selected from the middle classes. Such a class might be selected from the old fashioned grammar schools. The Earl of WINCIIILSEA ccnsidered that no sys tem would be efficient except it was based on the prin ciples of the Established religion of the country, and under the control of the clergy, who, if they zealously devoted themselves to the subject, might save the ex pense of the Government inspectors. Many of the people were living in;a state of infidelity and heathenism, and it was, therefore, the duty of the Government to do all in their power to promote their spiritual welfare. He approved of the plan submitted to their Lordships by the Noble Marquis. The ARCHBISHOP of CANTERBURY said his views on the subject had been so well expressed by the Right Reverend Prelate, who had just addressed their Lordships, that he thought it unnecessary for him to trespass on their time, beyond sincerely expressing his thanks to the P res id ent o f t h e P r ivy Council, for the attention which h e h a d p he had before the House. aid to the subject of education, and fur bringin g the plan Several report s were t h en rece ived and brought tip, and forwarded a stage ; an d t h e i r Lordships adjourned at a Quarter-past Eight o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 5. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. NEW MEMBERS. Earl GROSVENOR and Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR took the oaths and their seats—the former for Chester, in the place of his uncle, and the latter for Middlesex, in the place of Mr. Byng, deceased, SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time, and or dered to be committed:— _ _ _ Bristol and South Wales Junction Railway and Aust Ferry. Direct London and Portsmouth and London, Brighton, and South Coast Railways Amalgamation. Doddingtou Rectory Division. Glasgow, Airdrie, and Monklands Junction Railway (Cowlairs, Carmyle, Central Junction, and Coplaw hill Branches, and Montrose-street Terminus). Glasgow, Airdrie, and Monklands Junction Railway (Cowlairs Branch). Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway, and Ayrshire and Bridge of Weir Railway (No. 3). Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle Railway, and Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway (No. 2). Kingcton• upon-Thames Small Tenements. Liverpool. Manchester, and Newcastle-upon-T) ne Junc tion Railway. London and North-Western Railway (Purchase of the Earl of Ellesmere's interest in the Manchester South Junction and Altrincham Railway). Liskeard and Launceston Branch Railway. Lynn and Ely Railway (Extension to Spalding and Mil:teach). Lynn and Ely Railway (Extension to Bury St. Edmund's). Llynvi Iron Company. Manchester and Lincoln Union Railway Deviation. Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railways (Louth and Horncastle and East Lincolnshire Junction Branches). Manchester Market. _ _ _ Nortollt rtailway (from Thetford to the Lowestoft Rail. way near Retdham, with a Branch to llales worth) North-Western Railway (Diversions at :iltipton, Caster ton, and Sedbergh). Preston and Wyre Railway. Reading, Guildford, and Reigate Railway. Wharf tale Railway (Skipton and Cayley Hall Dcvia- tions). Year Valley, Bishop Auckland, and Wvardale, Wear dale Ext.•nsion, and Wear and Dorwent Railways, and Shildon Tunnel Amalgamation. CAMBRIDGE AND THE I'FORD RAILWAY. This Bill was read a first time. LONDON IMPROVEMENTS BILL. This Bill was brought up, and read a first time. LONDON WATERWORKS. This Bill was also ?wad a first time. OXFORD-STREET IMPROVEMENTS. This Bill was also read a first time. STANDINII ORDERS. It was reported from the Committee of Standing Orders, that in the cases of the Bristol and Yeovil Rail way, and the Glasgow and Tregarthan Railway, the standing orders ought not to be dispensed with. PUNISHMENT OF DEATH. Mr. BROTHERTON presented a petition from certain inhabitants of the city of London against the pu❑ishment of death. POOR REMOVAL ACT. Mr. W. 0. STANLEY presented petitions against the Poor Removal Bill. BREAD. l t rJO t I s IN of O L ' i ß m l e t r l i E ek N . a p n r d es u en ls t o ed fro p in eti t t is io e n e s or f p ro o m rati t o h n e inha i bi . an of that place, praying that the ba k ers might be com pelled to sell bread by weight. TEN HOURS' BILL. Mr. FERRAND presented several petitions from places in the manufacturing districts in favour of a ten hours' Bill. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Mr. ETWALL presented a petition from Stockford, in Rants, against the law of settlement, and stating that their rates had been largely increased by it. LIGHT-HOUSES AND BUOYS. . Captain PECHELL presented a petition, numerously signed, from the shipowners Of Sunderland, praying that the cost of lighthouses and buoys shuuld be de frayed out of the Consolidated Fund. POOR BLIND. Lord JOHN MANNERS presented a petition. which stated that the number of blind persons in the several asylums of the country was upwards of nineteen thousand, while there was only provision for the educa tion and religious instruction of two thousand. REDUCTION OF THE DUTIES ON SPIRITS. The NOBLE LORD also presented a petition from several places in Scotland against the proposed reduction on ruin . and other foreign spirits. The petitioners stated that this reduction would occasion a loss of 2,000,0001. to the country. TEN HOURS' BILL. Mr. SPOONER presented a petition from Bulton in favour of this Bill. SECURITY OF TENURE. Mr. S. CRAWFOitD presented a petition from ting the guardians of B r o a dh urst ( a s we understood), set forth that insecurity of tenure, and the want ofenants a law compelling comp e n sa ti on f o r the outlay made by t in improving the soil, were the great c auses of e . pre sent distress in Ireland, and that if t he lands of that country were properly cultivated remunerative a emptloy nd hat went would be given to the whole pe"Pleo they would thereby be enabled to supportw. themselves during similar calamities to the pre,ent i from the Government, and prying the House to pass a law to promote security of tenure. MALT DUTY. . Mr. WODEHOITSE presented a petitTn from Nor folk, praying for the repeal of the malt d.at,ae)s. T , REDUCING TilE DUTIES ON SI I . RI . S, . Mr. HUME presented a petition from distillers in Forfarshire, praying that the propo,ed redaction of the duties on spirits might not be carried out. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Mr. PALMER presented a p etition from the board of guardians of the Abingdon Union, coiriplaintrig that the law of settlement pa ssed last session i m posed great burdens on the towns , and p raying that it might be amended ; that She support of the poor might be made a national charge, and that all kinds of property might be equally rated. ENCLOSING COMMONS. he should wove for leave .. a Bill—notice of Mr. AGLIONBY gave notice that, on Thursday next, _Th e account current of moneys which which he gave last Cotosession facilitate the enclusure of I Bo ri l sh Exchequer. Commons. LOANS TO IRELAND. between Great Britain and Ireland since Loans contracte by the Irish Govern- On the motion of Mr. BROWN the following reurns progress h national debt of the Iris (the union) ' mth w ha e te,v r ne e t u, passed o n r i t l o n e n, r i e ci L:the esneeeoninter.nset downcontracted theto 1 until it was abolished, in 1817. How the debts s fr u o b m seg i n ts ent co l m o r n con tracted before and after the union were disposed of, ad the sources from which . the interest was paid. Te nre venue and expenditure of Ireland, from the sth f January 1841 to the e sth of January 1846, inclusive. The taxes imposed in Great Britain and the taxes ins . posed in Ireland, and the amount of each tax • - during the last ten years. WINDOW DUTY. Captain PECHELL moved for a return of the amount of window duty a ssessed for the year 1845 for the twelve of towns paying the lar g est amount, with the net am duty received fur t he same on the sth da y of Apr • il 1846. —Agreed to. POOR.LAW COMMISSIONERS. Captain PECHE LL also moved, on behalf Hon. Member for W e y mouth, for copies of of the all corre spondenee which had taken p lace b etween law Commissioners an d the board of guardians the Poor mouth.—Agreed to. for W e y- DETENTION OF CORN, Dr. BOWRING wish ed to call the attention Palmerston to the detentiLti of cor n and maize of L or d port of Ancona, bought for English account,maize in the tended to be s hipped for this country, and in• what measures had been taken in cons' and to inquire Lard PALMERSTON stated that spec:pience. !ions had been made to him on the subject, represents issued instructions to the Consul upon t il i ect, and he had detention of the grain complained of did e subject. The any act of His Holiness the p„pe not arise from but from the kcal authorities of the ' as had been stated, WRECK OF THE HlGport of Ancona. Dr. BOWRING wished to know RFLYER, moot had taken any steps in orderavhether the Govern truth of a rumour which had spread to ascertain the and destruction by the natives of four as to the capture supposed to have been cast ashore persons who were Abyssinia? 1 Lord . PALMERSTON balk] that Tunes to be matte upon the ' subject, on the coast of ho had caused in ,hieh 11 ,, 1:4 , 1 raci ,, d wus, that te . et, and the answer investigation into the circumstances tne most minute of the persons employed to makeeeths, e ic wuritehse that t ni t r e boat containing the four persons had b ees overtaken by a storm and lost ; and that they were not captured or murdered by the inhabitants. PENINSULAR MEDALS. Sir ANDREW LEITiI HAY wished to put a ques tion to the Secretary at War as to the steps which had been taken to carry into effect her Majesty's gracious intention of granting medals to the officers of the Penin sular army. Mr. FOX MAULE said, that in carrying out the gracious commands of her Majesty the details of the measure had been attended with considerable diffi culty. He could assure the Illiourahle Mombe r, and the House, who had expressed so strong a feeling on the subject at the close of the last session, that no unnecessary delay should take place in conferring on those gallant officers the rewards which her Majesty had been graciously plemerl to appoint. RU-SIAN DUTIES ON HERRINGS. Sir ANDREW LEITH HAY wished to put a ques tion to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs relating . to the duties levied in Russia and other countries on her rings exported from Great Britain ; he wislted to know whether it was the intention of that Government to lower the rate of duties levied upon that article of export? Lord PALMERSTON said that each country recu lated its own tariff according to its own interests, real or supposed, and it was a question in which other Govern ments could not interfere. He regretted, therefore, that he was not able at present to give any satisfactory answer to the question of the Hon. Member. TIIE BL XCK CAT. Mr. MUNTZ wished to know upon what authority, or upon what grounds, the schooner Black Cat was de tained in the river, and why all information upon the subject was refused to the owners by the Custom-house authorities. Lord PALMERSTON replied that the Black Cat was detained at the request of the Portuguese: Moister, who represented that the Black Cat was laden with con siderable stores, to be used in hostilities on the coast of Spain. Mr. MUNTZ gave notice that, on Thursday week, lie should bring the subject of the detention of the Black Cat under the attention of the (louse.—(Laughter.) In answer to a question from Mr. O'CUNNELL, Mr. LABOUCIIERE replied that Dublin would not be excluded from the operation of the Destitute Persons (Ireland) Act. Mr. AGLIONBY wished to know if Government in tended to bring in any measure this session to correct the evils attendant upoa the collection of the Merchant Seaman's Fund. Mr. WARD replied that it had been determined to institute a further inquiry into the subject, and a com mission would be appointed for that purpose. Upon the result of that commission a measure would be founded for remedying such evils as might be found to exist. NAVIGATION LAWS. Mr. RICARDO wished to know whether refined sugar was admissible into this country under the navi gation laws. Mr. GIBSON—The navigation laws, to which his Hon. Friend alluded, held that manufactured winds were to be considered the goofs of the country in which they were manufactured. Mr. RICARDO did not think that an answer to his question. - Mr. GIBSON would take the liberty of stating, on the part of Government, that he would answer more fully the question of his Hon. Friend at a future period. Mr. RICARDO gave notice that he should, on Monday. repeat hi; question. THE NAVAL SERVICE—PURSERS AND PAYMASTERS. Captain PECHELL said, that he Wished to ask the Secretary of the Admiralty a question. In the course of last session, and the session before, re titions had been presented from the pursers and paymasters in the navy, complaining that, notwithstanding the recoman n. dation of the c,mmission appointed to inquire inio this subject, the petitioners had not rt ceived any , ddition their hair-ray. The petitiotn=rs had in one caso surrendered 20 per cent., and in another 23 per cent. of their sea profits, in order that they might have a hett,r halt . -pay. They hal been told on the last occasion, that if they would forego their claims for that session the Gov,rn went would give them their favourable attention in the next seat ion. Relying upon that promise, they had not pressed their claims, and he (Captain Pechell) wished now to know what steps had been taken to bring about some satisfactory arrangement? Mr. WARD said, that in accordance with the recom mendation of the Commissioners appointed in Is4l, one shilling per day would be added to the half pay of these claimants in the present year. Captain PECHELL wished to say that he had received a communication from a paymaster placed on the six shilling list who had not been able to obtain the addition recommended by the Commissioners. RAILWAY ACCIDENTS. Colonel SIBTHORP gave notice, that if no more competent Member would bring in a Bill for the better regulation of railways, he should on an early day move for leave to bring in a Bill to compel railway companies to give ample compensation to the survivors of those pet sons who should have lost their lives by accidents on railways. SUGAR IN BREWERIES. An Hort. MEMBER asked if any objection would he urged by Government to the use of sugar in breweries for the purpose of colouring beer? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if his Hon. Friend exercised a little patience he would find that when the Bill came before Committee there was a clause inserted having special reference to this matter. HER MAJESTY'S NAVY. Sir C. NAPIER wished to ask a question of the lion. the Secretary of the Admiralty, but, as he had not given notice of it, he would not request an answer till Monday next. Last year it would be that 100 naval captains had been taken off the list, an. he found that within a recent period 72 frcsh ones Ilan been added. Now, as it had been stated that the cap tains' list was to be reduced to 500, he wished to ask ihe lion. Gentleman the Secretary fur the Admiralty whe ther the list had been reduced below that nu;nber by so many, or whether this new introduction of names was an addition to the complete number ? _ _ Mr. WARD said Le would give an answer on Monday. IRISH POOR-LAWS. Mr. P. SCROPE gave notice that,:in Committee on the Irish Poor-law Relief Bill, he would call the attention of the House to the expediency of extending to able bodied labourers the same right to relief which existed under the English law. He would also propose a clause empowering boards of guard an4to employ the able-bodied labourers on workhouse tams, and in reclaiming the waste lands. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, it was agreed that the House, at its rising, do adjourn till Monday. SOUTH AUSTRALIA. Mr. HUTT moved for a return of all moneys received in England anti in the colony for sales of landi in S..ukh Australia, or on account thereof; specii) int; (where practicable) the parties from whom received, and the lands purchased; also, for the expenditure of the said moneys, and the authorities for such expenditures; als'., e nd am th o e u e n of all liabilities for hilatiee of passage-in:me ) . of emi landtha l' ii ' v il a Y i 9 lab a l t e ld grants; also, of the balances of the Land Fund, both i'l specifyingE'll.4twhere r deposited; er a, 1.!,r ca a i l , s i o ): and the reserve for other objects (the said return , : o commence from the last accounts of the Land Fund pre sented to Parliament).—A g re e d to. MILBANK PENITENTIARY. Mr. B. ESCOT I', in reference to the report which he had drawn up, as one of the Milbank Penitentiary Commissioners, wished to call the attention of the Right lion. Gentleman (Sir George Grey) to the matter in question. The Right Honourable Gentleman had refused to receive his report, differing as it did from the report of the other two Commissioners, but he expressed himself willing to receive the substance of it in the shape of a letter. tie (Mr. B. E,cott) objected to do so, and in order to be satisfied that he had acted right he had taken the ad'ice of two eminent members of the bar. The first learned gentleman applied to was of opinion he had dune perlectly right, tit,:in order to be sure that he was right, he next to-k the opinion of Mr. Sergeant Manning. That opinion was cotifirmatery of the first. Und, r these eircuincances he (Mr. Esc,,tl) must persevere in sending in the report. Mr. DUNCOMBE said .hat neither the House nor the public were in possession of the report twice sent and twice rejected by the punctilio of the Home Secretary. He should move that the report be brought up and laid upon the table.—(Hear, hear.) Sir GEORGE GREY said he was quite ashamed to delay the House by repeating the arguments he had al ready advanced respecting the practice adhered to in re ceiving reports of Commissioners who did not join in a common report. He did expect that the Hon. Member would have pat it in his power to have laid the document before the House verbatim et literatim, the same merely altering the commencement and the termination. He had merely to say, that no such document as bad been moved for, was in his possession. Mr. B. Escott here rose, and placed a document in the hands of Sir George Grey, who threw it from him upon the table, and Mr. Escott retired. Mr. HUME said that it was a pity that the House should divide upon such a subject. The Hon. Gentle man must know that her immemorial, Majesty's Government had and that pursued a certain course fromtime they could not now depart from that course. The Hon. Gentleman could not blame them for not doing that which was not according to practice. The document _ being read as a should be read as a letter instead of report. Mr. 0' it u nnecessary to divide , CONNELL thought the House upon such a subject. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE did not understand now in what light the Right Hon. G s leinan held the document . en* , of which he was in possession. Sir GEORGE GREY that he was in possession of a paper placed in his hands l' in a very unusual ma nner, m oment, in the discharge of the h and really, at the present el, and as a Member of that dutes of the office he b d en able to read one word he had not as yet e House,i of it. Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE said that he should wit hdraw t bring it forward a some future period. the motion, and assured the Right Hon. Gentl ema n that nothing Mr. B. ESCOrr far f r om his intention as to do was so o ctful or out of the usual course. He anything disresp e to the content to refer was it highest legal authorities, opinions upon it. The House would re memberand take their that the Right Hon, Gentleman gave it as a the paper before the House that he reaso n for not laying it not in possessmi of it, and was that statement , was 't as he La done. h induced . A 1 ./h• him to at ie-: CH - - eien withdrwo. The luouion Rla . ARITA BLE aTRuSTS. Mr. HUME iahed to ask the Right lion. Secretary for the Home Department a question, of which he had given notice. He wished to know whether they were prepared to take mestiurts this session to regulate the pine charities. - Sir GEORGE GREY stated that the question was already under the eeeeideration of the Lord Chancel' r. DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) ADVANCES BILL. On the order of the day for bringing up the report the this B 11 being read, Lord CLEMENTS wished to call the attention of her Majesty's G'overnment to the Irish charities which were at present lying dormant• He would name a few of these charities. There was the Irish Peasantry So ciety and the British and Irish Ladies' Society, both of which had received subscriptions to a very large amount. The British and Irish]Ladies' Society had received the sum of 12,3001. from the subscriptions of 1322, when the last famine visited Ireland, There was another society which had received sub scriptions to a similar amount. There was also a handsome subscription collected in the :city of Dublin by a society, which afterwards dissolved itself, It awing a large balance in the Bank of Ireland. Now, these funds could not be touched, unless by an Act of Parliament, and when they were called upon for ad vances to meet the destitution which prevailed in Ire land, he wished her Majesty's Government to look after the funds. One society, called the Repro• I ductive Society, had a large sum to their account. He would not at present call the attention of the House to the Destitute Persons' Bill, but he would say, that there were divers provisions in that Bill which would render it i neffect ual, and still more difficult of management thanl . he pi eirnt system of public works. He had asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer last night what Govern ment intended to do to provide employment, and was informed that it was proposed to do so by the Labour Employment (Ireland) Bill. He did not know whether Government was aware of what would be required to carry out that measure. There were 2,050 electoral divisions in Ireland. They would also require a staff for each of these electoral divisions, which would be under the control of a central committee, of which the Lord Lieutenant was the head. He thought that was impracticable, and he would beg of her Majesty's Go vernment to reconsider that Bill. Ile gave the Govern ment full credit for sincerity, but he did not think this measure practicable. It would be necessary to form new districts throughout the land, and this would require some persons of corsiderable local information. He did not see that it would be possible for the Lord Lieutenant, with the machinery of the present Bill, to come to a just decision. He had no objection to the names of Colonel Jones, and Mr. Redington, and Colonel M'Gregor being introduced as members of the board, but it would be impossible for them (were they giving every attention to the measure, and he had no doubt they would do so as far as in them la)) to superintend efficiently the working of an extensive measure of this kind. In answer to a question feria) Mr. WILLIAMS, in re ference to the way the funds would be advc.oed, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he could only repeat what he had stated before. The ad vances would be made from the Consolidated Fund , 300,000/. was proposed now, and when more was re quired, he would come down to the House, and ask them for a vote. The money would be voted item time to time, as it was required. The report was then brought up and received. DESTITUTE RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. The order of the dty for g,ing into Committee upon the Destitute Relief (Irela , :d) Bid was then read. On tho motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, Mr. HUTT rose and said that he was anxious to saj a few words on the subject of the distress in lrelend. He entirely concurred with his Honourable Friend in lamenting that the Government should have adverted to the subject o f emigration in somewhat disparagi ng - t erms , Ile lamented it the more, as he looked upon it as one—if not the only means— by which the country could he r , scued from the terrible eshonitits much were impending over theta.--(hear.) There were in Ireland upwards of 1,500,000 hencl, of tainilies, woo maintained themselves on the verge of starvation, their wages varying from 2s. to 2s. 6d. per week, and a small portion of potatoe land, whiL‘t, order to give them the coarsest and cheapest bread, it was necessary that they should have from 7s. to Bs. per week. Seven shillings were scarce]) sufficient, and yet the whole rental of Ireland, which was barely ten millions, was barely enough to support them upon the grossest description of food. Even sup posing that every source of income was sunk, it e o ild not give more than seven shillings per week to each of the labouring population of Ireland. The fact was, that it was utterly impossible for 'relent to meet the demand of its population, from the destruc tion of theipotatoe crop. Let them say what they might, or do what they might, a poor-law giving a right to out-door relief could never be carried into effect in Ire land—and for this reason, that the gross revenue fish) the soil would be utterly insufficient for the destitution which it would be called upon to relieve. The acreable production of England was four times as great as the aereable production of Ireland. Why then, he would ask, did this disparie ) exist? The soil of Ireland was not less fertile than the:soil of England, perhaps it was more so. It could not, therefore, be attributable to that cause. The reason he thought must be the indifferent system of agriculture which existed in Ireland, and until an improvement took place in this respect, he was afraid that this disparity would still exist. The minut subdivision of the land in Ireland also presented insuperable obstacles to improvement. He, found, by a report laid on the table of the House, that the whole extent of Ireland was cut up into small holdings of from one rood to ten acres. Now, he would ask what sub soiling could take place, what drainage could be made, or what rotation of crops could be put down under such a system ? When the land was thus cut up into those miserable shreds and patches ' it was impo ss ibl e t o emp l oy profit ably either capital or labour. They found that the farmers in England were more consolidated for carrying out improvements; but, in Ireland, the peasant culti vated his ground by himself and unaided. It required four labourers more, in Ireland, to raise the same pro duce that would be raised by one labourer in England. His plan was that there should be increased production of the soil, which could be done only by more skilful cultivation, which necessarily required that there should be some consolidation of the miserable holdings in Ire land. He knew there were many opposed to such a scheme, nor, he confessed, did he wish to see such ex tensive farms in Ireland as there were in 'his country. He would wish the farms there to be of the size of what would be called moderate farmS in this cou:itrv. Bt;: this plan would require the removal of cotters. Govern- Meta proposed two schemes—the first to reclaim the waste lands, the next to promote colonisation. The first. certainly, would be beneficial. Colonisation, carried on to a sufficient extent, would, by diminishing the demand for food ut home, which certainly would change favour ably some of the present relations between the land the occupier. There existed in the British colonies a considerable demand for labour; and he could say, from his own knowledge, that in the colony of South Aus tralia the demand for labour was at this moment intense. He could assure the House that ;n the mining districts there existed a &maind fur at least 5,000 heads of families and those deperh'ent on them; in addition, they had a large territory in Poi) ne:Att, and he had no doubt that an equal number of labourers would be requir,d there, as the occupants of that land were equally in want of assistance. He would riot say what quantity of emigrants might be sent to Canada, and the regulations front the Colonial office; but of this fact he was quite aware, that there existed, both at home and abroad, im mense means of providing food for generations yet t, come. Now then he came to the cost, and he was afraid that this was a question which they would be compel', to scrutinise very closely, what would be the cost then, of an extensive system of home and foreign colonisatim, to such an extent as would give a sensible lift to Ire land? The cost, he believed, to the Imperial Treasur, would be Just nothing at all. He was sure that the whole outlay would be repaid by the reclamation of waste lands, as well as from other sources. He had been one of the commissioners appointed by the , Crown to manage the colonisation of South Australia, in which he was connected with a most worthy and phi losophic gentleman, Colonel To:rens. They had been the mans of partly laying the foundation of an impor tant and prosperous colony. In order to establish this colony, they hail carried out 15.000 persons, and in the course of a short time they had converted a forest and a wilderness into the abode of an industrious and thriving population.—(Hear, hear.) They had been able not only to meet all their expenses, but had realised 85,000/. The Government at the time granted 80,0001. for the security of the colonial revenue. This sum had been since adopted by the Colonial Govern ment, and had been since liquidated by the revenue of the colony. With such facts before the House, will' should not the same successful experiment be repeated elsewhere ?—kllear, hear.) In considering the question of relieving the people, the House and the Government should endeavour to carry out a systematic scheme of colonisation on the principle which had been found so successful in South Australia.—(Hear, hear.) That unless we can get the means of feeding the popula tion of Ireland from the soil, Ireland must continue to be supported out of the purse of England and Scotland. o by means of the importation of corn. He believed th us he knew full people of this country to be as liberal andasenero as any other people under the sun ; but . well that there were limits to their generosiity,oaunndhe was convinced that if the Governmentof th Parliaments again c country should find it necessary to applyto anoth-r grant they would find them r n a state of alarm and terror. He did, therefore, entreat her Majesty's Government seriously to consider the question of mi gration, which he considered had been too lightly weighed. He believed it to be the only means by which, in the dreadful and unparalleled distress, they would be en abl-A to rescue the property of Great Britain and Ire land from confiscation, and the people from the horrors of famine. Sit GEORGE GREY desired to bring back the House to the original question ur,der discussion, which ~ , a s with refer ence to a Bill framed in such a way as the Government had thought right to meet the existing, the pressing, the daily dis tress which was now pervading the country. Ho hoped, there fore, the House would be allowed to go un with the considera tion of the Bill. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN (who was very indistinctly heard) wished to press upon the House a proposition, for which no Act of Parliament was necessary —for the Poor-law Com missioners possessed already full rowers to carry it into eff,.ct, and would do so, if they received proper instructions. He pro posed to make a general electoral division of the town lands, consulting not only the population and the extent of the terri. tory, but also the space which each individual pro prietor should have on the property of such town land. He would not go into the whole ai.pect or political character of centralisati,n, but if there was r+ country less itte,t than ara. other lor centialisatioo, it was Ireland. He now called upon the House to give him its attention while he arraigned the two great classes of Ireland against each other. They were called upon t v: o vote a ay millio ns f or th e re li e f o f th e d is t ress in that country. He would not say whether that was right or whe ther it was wrong, but the ever-recurring, never-ending ques tion was, what w h ere th e y t o d o w i t h the landlords of Ireland' There were continual accounts of a most different descriptiesi brought forward in that House. On one hand they were melt by cases of the greatest cruelty and selfishness, and on the other by instances of the greatest self-denial, and the most general philanthropy. The question they had to consider, alter they had passed these laws, and voted them millions, was what they were to do with the Irish landlords. He would. have had tome difficulty in answering this question, if he did not know, from his own knowledge. that the Irish landlords e ere divided into two classes. There were some of them who still clung to the moat disgraceful prac tice of their class. There were others of them who looked for ward to a better state of things, and who were ready to do all ' in their power to accomplish such an object. That Houser was called upon to act with strict impartiality, and not to interfere more than was actually necessary ; but they were called upon to show, by the opinions they ' expressed, as to those who pushed the rights of property to the extremest limits, and those who discharged their duties.. There could be no just abjection to his plan, it would be for the benefit of Ireland, and yet the Irish party were not in their places. He had always found that those who ought to assist them when a measure of this kind was prepared were the last to do so.—( Hear, hear.) Now it was proposed to levy an absentee-tax upon Ireland. Whatever might be the merits of that tax, he must be allowed to say that at present it was ill-timed. A measure was before them for facilitating the transference of incumbered estates, and they were doing alk they could to induce English capitalists to invest their money in Irish land, and yet what were the inducements held out by the Irish party. Why, said they, "We will do everything toe facilitate the transfer of the land, and we most heartily wisbt e y x m i l le su to cce y9 s u s r w o it w h n i t t hl w4 ien you get it, but then you must be an I foolishors pay an absentee-tax." What . a policy was is . Why not let the English capitalist. invest his money first, and then come down upon him with the absentee-tax. Now, what he wanted the House to do was ten draw a distinction between the landlord who did his duty, and the landlord who did not—to pass such a law that all the town lands should share in due and proper proportions the burden of maintaining the poor. What had been the whole tenor of the debates this session. No difference had been made between free-trader and protectionist, or Wh y and Tory. The whole course had turned upon one question bearing upon the rights and duties of town lands, and in settling that question he maintained that it was unfair to press heavily upon the landlord, who did all in his power to improve his estate, without calling upon the landlord who neglected his estate to bear an equal burtten.—(Hear, hear.) Let them take as an. illustration of his position England and Ireland, and consider them as two large towns. England was prosperous; and was unhappy and destitute ; and it was unfair of Ireland, the English people said, to vest them with the consequences of the misdeed of Ireland. It was unfair, they said, to call upon them to relieve the sufferings of Ireland because in times gone by she had neglected to improve her con► dition, and allowed opportunities for becoming prosperous and happy too, to slip by her.—( Hear, hear.) He was not there Mr . say that these charges against Ireland were without foundation, nor had he ever attempted to deny that the landlords of Ire- Ireland had very much to answer for, but whether they had done their duty or bad not, if they took England and Ireland separately, they must confess hat the whole force of the debates eluting the present session had resulted into a great townland question. The Right Hon. Gentleman had con stantly said to the landlords of Ireland, " Help yourselves." The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth impressed the same upan them, and not for the first time, the other night. But they had also said if we make you help yourselves we make you help your neighbours also. All he asked was, that they should separate the good from the bad landlords. There were many landlords in Ireland who wished to sympathise with the people, and to lend their best exertions to carrying cut the most comprehensive measures of benefit. It was by strengthening the hands of the good land lords that they would be able to carry out and establish such beneficial laws.—( Hear.) It must be weal known to any one acquainted with the Irish people that mere law cf itself, as passed by that House, had little power on the people of Ireland. To remove them from that want of allegiance should be the duty of all who took upon themselves to direct the affairs of the country, whether in that House or acting in their own country as guardians. From his know ledge of Ireland, and his acquaintance with the feel ings and character of the people, and from the know ledge he possessed of this country, he would repeat again that these laws could not operate as efficiently as the means ha had devised. Moral influences, ancestral influences, and aristocratic influences, had more power over the Irish peep?, than any law passed by that country. Seeing a motion of risi bility On the other side, he must explain that aristocratic in fluence in Ireland had nothing to do with rank. It was the influence of the landlord over his tenantry when he did his duty. All he stated was to show the necessity he contended for of making a distinction between the good and the bad land lord. If they preserved the present system, you inflict on the good landlord the punishment due to the bad landlord. He repeated that this distinction was warranted, for the existence or the different classes was known to all those familiar with Ireland. It was not, perhaps, known to that House the many acts of kindness which the recent circumstances of the country called forth between landlord and tenant. How massy distur hauces had been crushed, how many unlawful characters had been rec'aimed, how many evils had been soothed, in a word, how mach of kindness, and how much of heartfelt gratitude. —(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances, he was sorry to see on the part of Government a desire, instead of diminishing the area of territorial division to increase" it by the divi sions proposed. It was not his intention then to enter upon the discussion of the Labour Rate Act—(Hear, hear) —but it was admitted to be, pro tont°, a nut. lity. Now that Act was going on rill, and another Act was coming in, which was the reason why he called the attention of the House to both Bills. The Govern ment said they were determined to proceed with the union rate instead of the electoral rate, they would injure rather than serve the country. He would oppose to the utmost, its its every stage, with all the pertinacity which the forms of the House permitted, the extension of taxation—that, he would not say dangerous, unjust, but fatal measure. Mr. LABOUCHERE said he should not trespass on the attention of the House, now that it was going into Committee, but considering the importance of what the Hen. Gentleman had said, that it was due to the House to make a few observa tions before the Speaker left the Chair. The question raised. by the Hon. Gentleman was not a new question. It had been urged upon his (Mr. Labouchere) attention by those to whom he was bound to pay the greatest deference and respect, namely, landed proprietors, magistrates, and Members of the Government; but the more he heard, the more necessary be considered it to weigh carefully the very important principle involved in this question, and the more necessary it was for Government to proceed with caution in deliber ating upon it. Still they felt they would not be doing their duty to the people of Ireland, if they did not con sider this question. The Hon. Gentleman had put forward this principle more clearly and strongly than it had ever yet. been expressed. His proposition was simply this—that to provide for the distresses of Ireland it was necessary to deal, not with committees, but with individuals.—(Hear, hear.) It was admitted by deputations which he had received, that the proprietors were willing to contribute largely, and to enter into the system of electoral districts, and thus to give employe ment to a considerable extent ; but they would do so upon the condition of being allowed to employ those to whom they gave labour on their own estates. There were, certainly, great objections to that ; they occurred to him then, and he urged them ; but he would not now repeat them. What was the fact? There were 2, 0 50 electoral districts in Ireland, occupying from ten to fifteen thousand acres each, which certainly was an extent sufficient to induce co-operation for good. The question proposed to deal with private property—Hon. Gentlemen said, would you deprive the proprietors in It eland of all motives of taking care Of their own property, and providing for the distresses of their own poor. He did think it certainly wrung to make those divisions so large as to prevent their taking care of the poor on their estates. But then to restrict the principles so far as to say, that they should enforce upon them the duty of taking care of any section of poor, merely from the fact of their being resident in a certain district, this was not the principle of any poor-law in the world with which he was acquainted. It certainly was not a principle of the law of England. It belonged to no country, and was merely a remnant of serfdom and a principle of feudal ism. It was to him a great objection that it ' was a feudal principle, and such a principle as he considered to be wholly inapplicable to Ireland or to England in the year !W.— ( :Jeer, hear.) But even if the principle were adopted it would be found that it would be utterly impracticable to carry out the details. If they had 60,000 town lands to manage— if they had separate machinery for each of these, or suppose they had only one-half or even one-fourth of those it would be utterly and absolutely impracticable to carry it into effeet. But he would not go into that, as he held that the arguments he had Already stated were utterly unanswerable. He would take the case of a man possessed of large property, and he would suppose him to be called upon to support all the poor who might be located on his land, he asked, was not such a principle wholly inadmissible? He held that it would be a discouragement to the improvement of property, and would produce in many cases, monstrous injustice. He must also say that the plan of the Hon. Gentleman was utterly imprac ticable in the me of towns. The principle of division into townlands ould thiovs an intolerable burden on towns and large villages. When he came, therefore, to the conclusion which he did, he assured the Honourable Gentleman that it was not without great deliberation and examination of the subject —it was not with sat consulting the most intelligent people, whe were able to form an opinion, and considering the huddled and crowded state of the population, as well as the general condi• tion of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He held then, that the townland, as the unit of taxation, would work the merit monstrous injustice, for while some proprietors would be en tirely exempted from burdens which of right belonged to them, others would be crushed by the weight of what they were not in justice entitled to bear.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. S. O'BRIEN observed that he never said that town• lands should be the unit of taxation. . . . Mr. LABOUCHERE said that if they left the principle of electoral districts, the next lower division to which they must come, as the unit of taxation, was townlands. This principle, he asserted, was not applicable to a tree people, but to a population in a state of serfdom. It was a feudal prin ciple, and one which he never could recognise or support— ( Hear, hear.) He thought the Hon. G e ntlema n had very much underrated the advantage of electoral d i str icts over of iourab Gen tlemanektownlands in another point o f view, namely, th e ad v antage andco-operat h ioimnselfmight m mu rt al bseuppion o support. a T c he i. t nto le speak of this from his own e xperience, but he (11r. Labouchere) could state that it bad been productive of the greatest good. The relief committees which had been established had been the means of bringing those together vt).o never met before.-- (Hear, hear.) The priest and the Protestant rector—the landlord, the tenant, and the cess-payer— men of different. creeds, and of different politics, were brought to act together, to know one another, to appreciate one another, an d to reci procate the advantages of mut ua l assistance.—( Hear, hear.) He saw the' during the last autumn, and he was of opinion that it had tended very much to the ad vantage of Irel an d . H e t h e ., ght. therefore, that there principle of working by communities, insiead of by town-lands, would in the present meas ure be much th e p re f era bl e course ; that it would b e t h e most effective way to support Parliament to assist the Government, and to carry out that measure which would require the aid of them all to realise the benefit which was intended by it. Thnetsoe electoral advantages d h s t e r ie tdistricts. believed He wouldwenld notre sult from th e division into then go into the question, whether electoral districts or unions were preferable, but he could assure the Honourable Gentleman, that her Majesty's Government would approach the consid ration of the subject with the greatest care. The question, however, was not whether they would make the electoral divisions larger, but whether they would make them smeller—whether they should proceed by electoral districts or by townlands. He had given his reasons why he considered the former the preferable mode, and he believed the greatest evil woul.l result if it was not adopted. If any gentleman were again disposed to raise the question, he would have an oppor tunity of doing so on a future occasion ; hut be hoped that, in the meantime, the Bill would be allowed to proceed. After a few words in explanation from Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN, Mr. Al ORE O'FERRAL believed that the subject was one which called for the most deliberate nonsid.ration from any Government, and one on which English Menthers were pecu liarly fitted to give an opinion. His lion. Friend (Mr. La touchere) appeared to him to confound two things which wero perfectly distinct—the division into electoral districts as ap.. Fficable to the Pour-rate Act of last session, and to tl.c pi 0 . posed Poor-law. He (Mr. F. Manic) was opposed to the landlords of Ireland when they made the application referred to, and his reason was, because the expense of 11 sve • ve. • _ . _ - ' = 4 THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING FEBRUARY 6, IP47