The Sun. — London, England, 1847-04-20 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, April 19. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool sack at Five o'clock. The Earl of EGLINTON presented a petition from the malt distillers of the west of Scotland against the Customs Duties, and prayir , that they might be allowed a drawback equal to the difference in the duty on rum lied spirits. The Earl of WALSINGFIAM presented a petition against the law of settlement. The Earl of CLANCARTY presented a petition, praying for poor relief in Ireland. The Noble Lord, who was very inaudible, was understood to say that the present question was one that required considerable con sideration. There could be no doubt that there were many obstacles with which those who were unacquainted With the subject could have no conception. Several Bills were brought up from the Commons, and read a first time. GOVERNMENT EDUCATION PLAN. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the Protestant Dissenters of Reading, Banbury, and Abing o, against the Government scheme of education. In 'cling' so he wished to ask his Noble Friend what was the reason of the change which the Corn • toittee of Education had decided upon since the Plan of 1839. He could only say that the accession of the /Dissenters would be obtained by some such system being adopted as the plan of 1839. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that in the plan of 1 839, and of that subsequently propounded in 1841, it Was fully intended that the Scriptures should be made a Part of the system of education; but so much of opposi tioTl had been shown that it was determined that none but the authorised version of the Scriptures should be ad t 3- ( .11; but the reception of the system was to be left VOrtal. Lord BROUGHAM had always been a party to any- Nog than the use of the authorised version , and h e believ e d that no school would be allowable without the 1 , 1 2 e of Scriptural instruction, and the rep l y therefore was no answer to his question. The Noble Marquis had Stated that none but the authorised and regular version Was to be used. But it should be recollected that there Was one version used in England, and another in Scotland. In England there were but two schools which would require Government assist ance, though in Scotland there would be more, and in Ireland, in all probability, there would be many w ho row(' have a right to this aid. The question, there fore, came with great force as to what was the autho rised version of the Scriptures. There was the Catholic Version and there was the Protestant version, but he Was atonished that any question should be raised about either in this year, not of 1447, or 1547, but in the year ,_ 1847 ; and be regretted that in this year there should be b igotry up on this great question the broiling spirit of ulgotry on both sides. Lord BEAUMONT wished to ask what was the system which the Government intended t o p ursue. 4 , 0 other minute existed but that which bore date the 3d of December, 1839. There was no other published but that, and he thought it would require some igenuity to Construe that minute into the meaning given to it by t he Noble Marquis, namely, that one particular version of the Scriptures must be used in its i ntegrity, and the words used in their minutes were Portions of the Old and New Testament. Now that formed a great objection to Catholics attending t hese schools. It was a great source of regret to him that the explanation of the Noble Lord was calculated to create still further sectarian divisions and dislike to spiritual education. He had hoped to see under the * tole roof, and instructed by the same masters, "d inspected by the same men, both Catholics and Protestants receiving education together, and by t hat means, in course of time, to do away with that ill feeling which resulted from sectarian differences. The c l o estion he wished to ask, therefore , fr om the Noble 51 arqui s was this—Was there any other minute, any Un published minute, with regard to the use of t he autho rised version of the' Scriptures besides the minu te dated `"s 3d December, 1839? The Marquis of LANSDOWNE wa s understood to thy, that th e re was no minute which would bear e construction put upon it by the Noble Lord be en wished to state that the general o on that bon of made had reference, not to the bservati authorised version nc ;'the Scriptures, but with reference t o Roman Catholic "e" ,. 0011, judgment only would be delivered when a fur the y atiL,unt of knowledge was obtained. He had loped that no objection would have been mad e to the measure of the Government. Lord BROUGHAM b e gged to explain. His Noble Friend had altogether misunderstood him. If the au thorised version of the Scriptures were read in the schools the Catholics would not receive it. Earl RADNOR made a few observations. OXFORD AND BIRMINGHAM RAILWAY. Lord LYNDHURST, who was very imperfectly heard, ,_v understood to refer to the Committee of Inquiry Which had been recently appointed on this railway, and to that he h a d b ee n considering the objection which labour s been made as to the propriety of discontinuing the otu.s of th a t C omm itt ee , i n co nsequence of the matters in dispute dtspute e _ between the North-Western and Great Cou s r t r n Railwa y Com p anies bein g still pending in the she , of Chanc er y, and was of opinion that the inquiry - r u' not b e a b an d one d. ..ord R EDESDALE said that be was not in the House when th eh ave Committee was appointed, otherwise he would oPPosed th e motion, as he thought that the prin ciple which it recognised was a dangerous one, and that ofeßouse sh ou ld no t i n t er f e re with the legal possession property. With these few remarks he should con clude, and if there was any opposition to his motion, he should not feel justified in pushing the matter to a deci sion before their Lordships. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that it was right to state to their Lordships that the question which had been, raised in the Court of Chancery, and which was now pending before him, was, as to who were the legal directors of the Oxford and Birmingham Railway. This question would, in all probability be decided in the course of the present week, and he thought, therefore, that it would not be wise in their Lordships to come to a decision which might, very probably, interfere with the jurisdiction of a court of law. It would seem admirable to him, therefore, to postpone the considera tion of the matter until after the decision of the Court of Chancery. Lord LYNDIIURST said that the Vice-Chancellor had come to a decision that the directors, who had been elected in October, sh. , ald go out in October, and it seemed, therefore, desirable on all hands, that their Lord ,ships should not interfere, while the matter was pending to the Court of Chancery. - _ - The matter then dropped. GOVERNMENT EDUCATION SCHEME. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE pies rated petitions in favour of the plan for Mansfield, Bridgewater, and a great number of other places; as also several against it. Lord BROUGHAM wished to inquire what deter- Mination the Government had come to respecting the 11 , 80 of th e au thorised version of the Scriptures. He 4150 wished to inquire whether there was any change in tOO Minutes of Council of 1839; and suggested that such alteration would materially affect the votes of the douse of Commons. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said there had been 7. change whatever in the Minutes of Council; for, with ' e sPeet to the authorised version, the rule was sufficiently established; and with respect to the money that was necessary to carry the plan out, the llouse of Commons would at all times have the means at their command for 9trecti ng it, and could bring their influence to bear upon it from year to year. Lord BROUGHAM believed that the Ministry would not surely take any step in so important a matter without the sanction of Parliament. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE conceived that as the whole of the plan would yearly be subjected to the c onsideration of the House of Commons, that it was un necessary to bring it in, in any other shape, before their Lordships. _ . POOR LAW. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that he had another petition to present, which was of a very different Character. It was against the Poor•law Removal Bill, and he would take that opportunity of stating that as there were two Bills bearing upon this subject, one for the extension of the poor-law in Ireland, and the other to enable landed proprietors to dispose of their estates with more facility than they now possessed, which might pos sibly clash with each other, he proposed to take the second reading of them both on the same day, and would therefore fix them for Thur-day next. Lord STANLEY.presented several petitions, both for and against the Irish poor-law. The Earl of RADNOR presented several petitions against the Government scheme of education. Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented four petitions to the same effect. CUSTOM DUTIES. The Earl of EGLINTON moved for certain re turns connected with the Custom Duties, which were agreed to. CASE OF CATHERINE FOSTER. The Marquis of WESTMEATH said he wished to direct the attention of the Government to the execu tion of an unfortunate woman on Saturday last, at -nary St. Edmunds. It appeared from the newspapors that upwards of 10,000 persons were present. The e xecution was conducted in such a manner as to pro long the sufferings of the unfortunate creature for a c onsiderable space of time ; and the assemblage of per sons were so struck and horrified at the circumstance, that r they called out shame, shame, murder, murder. 4 e was one of those persons who unfortunately thought that this mode of punishing crime ought to be conti nued, but will he thought the sufferings of the unfortu n,ate beings who came to those untimely ends should not be protracted by the carelessness or brutality of the exe cutioner. A short time ago a similar case to this oc curred, and on its being brought under the attention of t u lle 'tight Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State 'for the -4 , l3 rue Department, a promise was given that the matter 'Would be looked into, and measures taken to prevent a recurrence of such a proceeding. Many years ago he w ag quartered in the town of Sligo when an unfortunate elfin was brought out for execution. The drop being efe ll high, the ropo broke, and the man c 6I, L into the street, breaking both legs, and faoturin g several of his ribs, and yet in that state he w as carried up again, and the sentence of the law exe cuted upon him. A similar case having occurred in the L et 7 heart of the kingdom, he thought it was a proper t ;:tision upon whi c h t o ca ll u p on the Government to ake ste )s to prevent a recurrence of such scenes. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said Government *would cause a careful inquiry to be made into the cir nTstanees. He agreed with his Noble Friend that, ^ 4l l it was nec essar y to cont i nue t hi s mo d e of punish tent, It ()light to be carried out with all due solemnity and caution. The subje3t then clrnnpecl. MUTINY BILL. This 13E1 went througn Committee, and the repor Ina ordered to be breught up to-morrow (this day). AIARINE MUTINY BILL. This Bill went through Committee, and the report was or,lered to be brought up to-morrow (this day). Several Bills were advanced a stage, and their Lord ships adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 19. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. GLASGOW, PAISLEY. AND GREENOCK RAILWAY. Mr. HASTIE presented six petitions against the Glasgow, Paisley. and GrPennek Railway. PRIVATE BUSINESS. Mr. GEEENE moved that this House will not re ceive a petition against a railway Bill after Monday the 3d day of May next, unless the petitioners shall com plain of any matter which may have arisen during the progress of the Bill before the Committee on the Bill. That, from and after the said 3d day of May next, the Committee of Classification be empowered to refer to the Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means, toge ther with the Members ordered to prepare and bring in the Bill, such unopposed Bills as they shall deem it de sirable so to refer.—Agreed to. Dr. BOWRING presented a petition against the Bills of the Great Northern Railway Company. REPORTS. The reports on the following Bills were considered and agreed to, and the Bills ordt,:ed to be engrossed : Darwen Waterworks and Reservoirs Bill. Newhaven Harbour, Ouse Lower Navigation, and Lewes and Laughton Drainage. Newmarket and Chesterford Railway (Extension to Thetford). Newmarket and Chesterford Railway (Extension to Bury St. Edmund's, with a Branch to Ely). HOLYHEAD HARBOUR. Mr. WARD moved that the order, that Viscount Morpeth, Mr. Ward, and Mr. Owen Stanley be Mem bers of the Select Committee on the Holyhead Her hour Bill, be discharged. He made the motion at the request of the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool, who was of opinion that the appoint ment of the Committee ought to he delayed until the report of the Commissioners, app.inted to consider the subject, was before the House. lie should lay that report on the table either to-morrow or next day. The motion was agreed to. LONDON, OXFORD, AND CIIELTENHAM RAILWAY. _ Mr. C. BERKELEY moved that the petition of the inhabitants of Cheltenham, in favour of the London, Oxford, and Cheltenham Railway, and agaiast the Chel tenham and Oxford Railway Bill, be referred to the Committee on the Bill.—Agreed to. FEES ON PRIVATE BILLS. The SPEAKER said he had to acquaint the House, that in accordance with the resolution of the House, he had caused a list of fees payable on private bills to be prepared. NEWMARKET AND CIIESTERFORD RAILWAY BILL. This Bill, repealing the provision authorising the company to use the line o f the Eastern Counties Rail . way, was read a third time and passed. GOVERNMENT SCHEME OF EDUCATION. Mr. P. HOWARD presented two petitions from Car lisle against the Government scheme of education. Mr. HASTIE presented several petitions from Scot land to the same effect. Mr. TIIORNELY presented petitions from Devon shire and North Wales to the same effect. Mr. W. PATTEN presented several petitions in favour of the scheme, and two against it. Mr. R. CURRIE presented a petition from North amptonshire against the Government educational scheme. Mr. BAILEY presented petitions to the same effect• Mr. WILLIAMS presented two petitions to the some effect. The lion. Member also presented a petition from a person named Williams, complaining that the Irish Board of Works were guilty of jobbing practices in connexion with their functions. Mr. DUNCAN presented several petitions from Scot land against the Government Scheme of Education. Petitions were also presented against the measure by Mr. Beßead Yorke, Mr. Protheroe, Mr. Huntley, Mr. Brotherton, Lord C. Fitzroy, Mr. Greene, by Mr. Walker, Mr. Gisborno upwards of 20 petitions, Mr. Godson, and Mr. Sharman Crawford, 26 petitions from Wcsleyans and others from Rochdale. Mr. HINDLEY also presented 700 petitions, from various places. Petitions in favour of the measure were presented by Mr. Seymer, Mr. Finch, Mr. Greene, Mr. Ainsworth, Mr. Hudson, from Sunderland ; Dr. Bowring, Mr. Stewart, Mr. Beckett, Mr. Brooke, and Lord H. Vane. Mr. MILES presented several petitions from places in Somersetshire in favour of the scheme. Mr. G. BERKELEY presented petitions from Glou cestershire against the Government plan. Mr. ROEBUCK presented two petitions from Bath against the scheme. Mr. E. DENNISON presented one in favour and one against ; as also did Mr. HAYTER. Mr. I'. DUNCOMBE said he had from 300 to 400 petitions to present from various parts of the country against the scheme—four or five of which were peculiarly deserving the attention of the House, as they were of a different character to the generality of them. One was agreed to at a public meeting of the inhabitants of Maidstone, objecting to the scheme as unconstitutional; another agreed to at a public meeting, held on Saturday last, at Ramsgate, deprecating the House proceeding to decide on the scheme with haste, and in favour of his (Mr. Duncombe's) motion for a Select Committee of Inquiry; from the committee of a society calling itself " The Central Committee of Na tional Associated Trades, and for the Protection of In dustry;" and another signed by 7,000 members of an association, calling itself " The Association of Young Men of the City of London," who were also members of various mechanics institutes, against the scheme and in favour of an inquiry ; also a petition from thirteen of the clergymen of the diocese of York, who stated that it appeared from the Minutes of the Council of Education that certain pro positions were in some measure founded on the representation of the Protestant clergy, while there was no authority to show that the Protestant divines as a body were in favour of the plan. Mr. DENISON presented a petition from Surrey in favour of the Government scheme of education. Lord ARUNDEL presented several petitions from Sunday-school teachers against the scheme. ➢lr. M. GIBSON also presented several petitions to the same effect. M. M. MILNES presented a petition in favour of. Mr, HOLLAND Presented a petition against. Lord DUNCAN presented 10 petitions from Bath against. Alderman HUMPHERY presented a petition against. Col. SIBTHORP presented a petition against. Sir G. BANKES presented a petition against. Sir J. Y. BULLER presented several petitions against. Colonel T. WOOD presented several petitions against. Mr. PUSSY presented several petitions in favour of the Government plan. Lord MORPETH presented 124 petitions from various places in the West Riding of Yorkshire against the scheme of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. P. BORTHWICK presented a petition in its favour. Sir R. PEEL presented three petitions from places in Lancashire against the Government scheme. Mr. WAKLEY presented several petitions to the same effect. Mr. VERNON SMITH presented petitions from Northampton against the Government scheme of education. Mr. CHRISTIE presented similar petitions from Weymouth and other places. Sir GEORGE GREY presented similar petitions ; also petitions from the Free Church Presbytery of Glasgow and Ayr in favour of the measure. The Right Hon. Baronet proceeded, amidst the utmost confusion, to state the prayer of the petitions, and in an apolo getic tone added that he had been specially requested to do so.—(Laughter.) Mr. CONIPTON presented petitions in favour of the Bill. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN presented petitions from 22 parishes in Norhamptonshire against the Bill. Captain GLADSTONE presented similar petitions. Mr. PATTISON presented petitions to the same effect. Mr. LABOUCIIERE presented petitions in favour of the measure. Mr. AGLTONBY presented petitions against the measure. Lord CHARLES SOMERSET presented petitions to the same effect. Petitions against the measure were also presented by Mr. Barclay, by Mr. Sotheron, by Mr. Aldam, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by Mr. B. Escott, and by Mr. Barker. Lord JOHN RUSSELL presented 513 petitions in favour of the measure (fourteen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer). Several petitions were presented also in favour of the measure by Mr. Aldam, from Leeds, Sir 11. Inglis, Mr. Barclay, and Lord Ingestre. Sir DE LACY EVANS presented petitions from several parishes in Westminster against all State grants for educational purposes ; and against the Committee of the Privy Council.—(A laugh.) Lord M. HILL presented a petition against. Mr. PARKER three in favour. Mr. KEMBLE one from Clapham, signed by the Archdeacon of Surrey, in favour. Mr. BROTHEIITON petitions from different dissent ing congregations in Salford, and other places, against. BOARD OF CONTROL—GAS COMPANIES. Mr. HUME said that he desired to give notice that he would to-morrow or on Thursday move that as the Government of India had been vested in the India Directors, the conduct of the Board of Control in taking cognizance of certain matters was illegal and impeachable.—(Laughter.) He would also move that a statement of the rate at which all gas companies had furnished the public with gas for the last ten years should be laid upon the table. DECIMAL CURRENCY—VICTORINES. Dr. BOWRING would move on to morrow (this day) an address to her Majesty, that she would authorise a decimal system of currency, and that a coin of the value of two shillings should be issued, being one. tenth part of a pound, to be called a " Victorine."— (Laughter.) TIIE POOR-LAW. Mr. FERRAND said that he would wish to ask the Noble Lord the First Minister of the Crown a question, of which he had given notice : he desired that he would name a day on which it was his intention to bring forward the question of the new poor-law. If the Noble Lord was unprepared to do this, he should con sider it his duty to bring the subject under the notice of the House. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it was his inten tion to bring forward that question on Th urs d ay next , or on to-morrow (this day) week. Sir BEN. HALL said—Before we proceed to the order of the day, I shall put a question, of which I have p given notice, to the Noble Lord at the head of the Go vernment. It is of some importance, and may materially effect the discussion of this measure. The question I have to put to the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern ment, and of which I have sent him a copy, is to this effect:—l may first state that there is a rumour preva lent in the city of London that an arrangement has been made between the Government and the Wesleyan Com mittees, for the purpose of setting aside the opposition which is intended to be made by the Wesleyans to the grant for the Government:scheme of education. I think twat the best mode in which lean bring the question before the House, is to read a statement which appears in a paper supported by the Wesleyans, and which is to this effect. On account of an important communication from high sources expressing a desire, without any solicita tion on our part, to enter into a negotiation with regard to this scheme, we have judgcd it ex pedient to direct a Committee, in order that no misun derstanding may take place on either side, to enter into a communication with the Government with regard to the objections felt by the Wesleyans to the Minutes of Council, and on which we have stated, in strong but respectful language, our aversion to them. An official reply has been received, placing the present measure in a new light altogether, and which, we are bound to say, removes in a great degree some of the most grave and insuperable objections which, as consistent Wesleyans, the Commit tees have urged. Now the statement made is this, and I wish to call the attention of the Noble Lord anti the House to it. Official but private overtures have been made to the Wesleyans in London, offering these concessions —first, that the Government exhibition shall be made only to schools which use the authorised version of the Scriptures; next that the Wesleyans be permitted to use their own catechisms, in schools devoted to the use of the Wesleyans, and that the instructors should be of the Wesleyan persuasion. The question I have to put to the Government is this, first, whether this negotiation has been made to the Wesleyans by Government, or any person authorised by the Government, and if such concessions are to be made, whether the Roman Catholics are to have the like privilege? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said—l must say, in the first place, in answer to the question of the Hon. Member, that the communication with the Wesleyan body was, as far as I know, not begun by any person authorised on the part of the Government. A Noble Friend of mine, whose name (although I have no authority to mention it) I may state to the House —I mean Lord Ashley—understood from some of the Wesleyan body that they were about to enter into resolutions describing the character of the minutes in a way which was thought by him not appli cable to them. He told them that they had better wait until he should communicate with Lord Lansdowne on the subject, and thus through the secretary of the com mittee of council get an explanation on the sub ject. The secretary of the committee came to Lord Lansdowne and myself, and asked our intentions, on the subject, we said that we should have no hesitation in answering any questions which the Wesleyans might choose to put, and which might lead to a correct expla nation on the subject. I do not know that any blame can be attached to us in consequence.—(Loud cheering.) The first question was, whether any person, holding ecclesiastical functions would be eligible to fill the office of pupil teachers, and the answer we made was, that they would not be eligible as pupil teachers. —(Loud cheers.) The next question was, whether the authorised version of the Scriptures would be used in schools ? On this subject, the resolution of the Com mitts, dated the 3d December, 1839, in which reference was made to a previous re olution, said that the condi tion on which they would give assistance to schools would be that a daily portion of the Scrip tures should form a portion of the usual exercise to the classes. The words " the daily reading of a por tion of the Scriptures," was understood to mean the authorised version of the Scriptures, and in the same report of 1839, it was stated that the intention of the Committee with respect to the children of Roman Catholics, was that the Douay version of the Bible should be allowed. The next question was, whether the in spectors of the Wesleyan school might be appointed not as from the Wesleyan body, but with their concurrence ? The Hon. Gentleman stated that they had hitherto re ceived assistance through the British and Foreign School Society, and they said that it would be far more agreeable to their feelings and the constitution of their Society if the Committee on educa tion would recognise the Wesleyan body directly. I admit that, according to that arranT2;ement, they were not parties which, according to the minute, wok e entitled to assistance from the grant. With re gard to the exclusion of the Roman Catholics from the grant, it was no new question. Ever since 1839 such has been the policies, and I do not know of any grant having been mede to Romeo Catholic schools exclusively as such. The question is, therefore, left as beibre as far as Roman Catholics are concerned. When the Roman Catholic Bishops came to the Government and ask for assistance from the Go vernment grant it will be time enough to give attention to the matter. At present there was considerable diffi culty in working such a grant on account of many of the teachers in Roman Catholic schools being in holy orders, and might be supposed to use their functions as teachers to proselytize their pupils. With regard to the grant for the present year, it will be this year the same as the lest, viz., 100,0001., and it will be applied as before. GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION. Lord JOHN RUSSELL then proceeded to the order of the day. He said—Sir, I will now proceed to propose to read the order of the day with the view of proposing in Committee a resolu tion for education. In doing so, the House, I trust, will bear with me, and give me its indulgence, while I endeavour to clear away some of the exaggera tion with which it has been accompanied.—(Hear, hear.) And in connexion with which Honour aeckeldreinmbneorosrdinhaarvye m a been r a nmisrepresented give ern:- a a b tt l count of their conduct at public meetings and elsewhere. It is done by those who say they come to protest against an irresponsible power, it is done by those who endeavour to show thet the body who will have the management of this grant is unconstitutional, and that the grant made from year to year—made by this House—placed in the hands of the Ministers of the Crown, renewable at the pleasure of the Sovereign, and who cannot hold office any longer than they have the support of this House; that such a mode of devoting money to the education of the people was an unconstitutional mode of proceeding. Why, Sir, talk of responsibility how much more must we be responsible, hold ing this power upon such a tenure, than those who assemble together from various parts of the coun try, not responsible to any persons, and who have told Hon. Members of this House that they will raise suer opposition at a future election, that they shall no longer have the honour of a seat in that House if they decide according to their free and impartial judgment upon the questions now to be brought before you. I trust, Sir, entirely to the judgment and impartiality of this House; and that they will not allow that these attempts at exaggeration and misrepresentation shall hide from them the real facts of the case.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, it is well known that the education of the people —of the working classes especially—forms no part of the duty, either of the Government or, nationally speaking, of the Church of this country. The whole task of education has been left, of late years, to volun tary efforts. In the year 1784, a person of the name of Raikes first started sublcriptions for the purpose of establishing Sunday schools, and was the means of diffusing a great amount of education among the younger portion of the community. In the beginning of this century, when Mr. Lancaster came to this country, it was entirely by the efforts of in dividuals that the British and Foreign School Society was established, altogether unaided by any assistance from the funds of the Government. So likewise when these schools were succeeded by the National Schools upon the plan of Dr. Bell. Although j the clergy took a great part in the establishment of nu sei schools, it was done entirely by the money of the indi viduals among the clergy and the laity ; and was in no way countenanced by the State. In the year 1832, I think a vote was proposed in this House, of a very limited amount, as it did not exceed 20,0001., for the purposes of aiding in the education of the working classes. That sum was placed under the direction of the Treasury, and was stated to be intended for this purpose. - I have mentioned the National Society, which was composed of members of the Church of England, and by the British and Foreign School Society, which had no other rule than this— have the Scriptures read daily in the schools connected with that society, which was constituted, not of Church men only, but of Churchmen and Protestant Dissen ters. Sir, the matter continued in this shape till 1839, when it was proposed to form a Com mittee of the Council ; and that the sums which had hitherto been granted by the Treasury to the different educational societies, should henceforth pass through the Committee of the Council, and that that Commitee instead of the whole Council, who being a a large body, like the Treasury, was occupied with other concerns, should form a committee of colleen, and that that committee, by the direction of her Majesty, should have ita attention expressly devoted to this particular subject. The Lord President of the Council was placed at the head of that Committee, and he has taken the charge at all times; whether under the then Government, the late Government, or under the present Government. The the Lord President of the Council has at all times taken the charge of this matter, and of the distribution of the funds for the purposes of education, and has brought before the Council from time to time such regulations the adoption of which, he thought, would be useful. Sir, the appointment of that Committee in the first in stance gave rise to great differences of opinion in the country, and a very protracted and vehement discussion took place in this House on the subject. The Arch bishop of Canterbury, in the other House of Parlia ment, protested against the formation of that Committee, and against any scheme of education which was not brought by Bill before Parliament. It was evident for some time the endeavours of the Committee of Council on the one hand, and that of the church on the other, were much weakened by these differences of opinion ; and therefore the results were not so successful as they would have been if they had not prevailed. The ques tion was in this shape when it was proposed that the inspectors who should visit the national schools should be appointed by the Council, with the concurrence of the Archbishop of Canterbury, in the province of Canter bury; and with the concurrence of the Archb7shop of York, in the province of York. That these should re port to the Committee of Council generally, as to the secular education, and that they should report as to the nature of religious ins ruction according to the liturgy of the Church of England; and that duplicates of these reports should also be sent to the Archbishops, that if they withheld their concur rence from the appointment of that inspector as were dissatisfied with what he considered the conscientious discharge of his duties, his appointment ce&sed, and the TRH SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, APRIL 20, 1847. Committse and Council named some one to whom the Archbishop bad no objection. Such was the state of the question when the Right Hon. Gentlsmail opposite (the Member for Tamworth) came into power, and no change was made by him with respect to the appointment of the Committee of Council. Those who had been Members of the Crown immediately ceased to be Members of the Council. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Robert Peel), Lord Stanley, Sir James Graham, became Mem bers of the Council, and Lord Wharncliffe being Presi dent of the Council, became head of the Committee. I had more than one conversation with the late Lord Wharncliffe on the subject, as I was connected and ever have been with the British and Foreign School Society. And he consulted me from time to time as to what should be the relations between that society and the board. He proposed that a sum of 5,0001. should be granted—the proposition emanated with a former Government—for the purpose of a normal school. I advised them to accept that grant of the Committee. At a subsequent period Lord Wharncliffe informed the secretary of that society that he should adopt the same rule with regard to it as had been adopted to the national schools, but that he should not appoint the inspector without their concurrence. The inspector did not, according to their orders, make any examination as to religious instruction. Sir, the grant continued to be made in this form, and various sums were granted which from time to time were in creased, until it reached the sum of 100,000/., and that sum was granted, without any discussion of importance taking place. When, however, we come to consider the state of education, it appeared to us, as a very great number of schools had been built, that there was no longer such a demand for money for the purpose of building schools. The system of monitors has been established by Lancaster and Bell, but it did not answer satisfactorily on account of the early age at which the children left school, so that a boy who had only a years' education himself was a very unfit person to teach well, and give the proper comprehension of the subject of education to a school. It was therefore proposed that a certain sum should be allowed in ca ;h school for the purpose of inducing a boy to remain some years in school, till he thereby became an efficient teacner. It was proposed, likewise, that when the masters gave their time to training of the pupil teachers, and render ing them efficient in their duties, that there should be a certain sum of money as an allowance made to them. It was proposed with regard to some other schools in which there were not monitors and pupil teachers, that there should at once be established monitors, who likewise received a sum of money to in duce them to .emain at school. These because stipen diary monitors, and there should be an allowance made to masters training and teaching these stipendiary monitors. It was proposed likewise with a view to the improvement of the normal schools, and for the better sustentation of those resorting to those schools, that a sum of money should be granted for the purpose of pay ing those pupils who should be most promising, and who should be recommended by the inspectors of the school, together with those who were at school, for the purpose of being trained in normal schools, and that there should be an augmentation of the salaries of the masters of schools who bad been trained, and who should obtain a certificate of proficiency. There should be a certain sum of money likewise for the encouragement of proper gardens and workshops, which has to those persons, who have taken an interest in education, been at various times a very desirable object. It has been always my view the .; the only way efficiently to raise the education of this c .untry will be to raise the condition and pros pects of the schoolmasters. It hes been my view, often and often expressed in this House, whether in or out of office, that the drudgery of schoolmasters was not suffi ciently rewarded, and leading to no prospect of advan tege; it was such that men of talent and abilities who were trained to that purpose, cannot but leave it in a great number of instances for other and more profitable occupations. Such has been the view which I have not only taken myself but which I find confirmed by that of others.—(Hear, hear.) It is of immense importance that these schools should have efficient teachers, and that there should be some emolument or reward given ; the latter more commen surate with the great duties which they had to perform. There is another proposition which I shall have to make, —not that any grant will L wasted for it this 3 ear, but it will be required, in all probability, next year—it is for the purpose of pensionin g ; off those schoolmasters who have been worn out in the service. No one can deny that it is highly important for us todo all in our power to elevate the character and position of the schoolmasters. lie was only surprised that so far from the country expressing itself alarmed at the minute of Council, it would have exclaimed—" What, is this all ? it is well so far, but it is not equal to meet the evil which is complained of. It ought to be a larger and a greater plan. Sir, I have said before, that I have not proposed anything but what has been settled on for many years, and repeatedly referred to. It has been stated, I know, that this is an unconstitutional body which makes the grant; but to that I will answer, that I do not think any course can be more constitutional than for Ministers to come forward with an explanation of what they intend to do, and to depend on a vote of Parliament for the grant. The question now is the same as in 1839, when first brought forward. I did not anticipate such objections, least of all from thoee who hare brought forward this opposition, viz., the various Dissenting ministers of London, and the various bodies throughout the country, who applauded the Government in the course they adopted in the year 1839.—(Loud cheers.) I trust, therefore, that the Committee of Council will not be considered as so formidable an evil as it was once supposed to be. —(Hear, hear.) I am not, Sir, going to discuss that large question at the present moment. I wish to point the attention of the House to how far the se ar gumente are endeavoured to be applied. Sir, it is im p essible not to see the drift of those arguments. Sir, it is again said that there is sufficient already done for edu cation, that there is no need of any further assistance; that the people of England are as educated, or if not so completely educated at preseat, they are in the way to be so completely educated, ;' , at it would be superfluous for the legislature interfe. e. I wish that I could con cur in that representation of the case. I wish I could say that the voluntary efforts had done so much, and that the education of the people was so complete , that we need not t rou bl e ourselves h e re with the matter, which I confess i s one of great difficulty, and one which cannot be touch e d w i thout exc i t i ng the feelings of many opposin g p ersuas i ons. The case is , however, far otherwise. I will not, Sir, attempt to g o into minute statistics as to wh at h as alrea d y b een done upon this subject, but I feel that Hon. Members of th:s House who have paid any attention to the subject, or who have read any education pamphlet udotnhetihrisoswunbjenceti,gobrbbwahrobbhbadv_e a(cttbenetl)_to the but must see th at t h e education of the people of this country is lamentably deficient. Upon this subject I will take the statements of one of the opponents of this measure. I regret deeply that he should be one of its opponents, because his learning, his zeal for the public gocd, and his piety, render him deserving of the respect of eve'Y person —I mean Dr. Vaughan. That gentle man, in an article published in the British Quarterly ~feview, and which has since been published with his name, st - „tes that of th e w h o l e popu l a tion of England and Wales, between th e ages of fi ve an d fifteen, found in day schools, the prop ort i on wou ld be somewhat less than one-third, about an equal number in the Sunday schools, and the remaining third not found iniony schools --day, evening, or Sunday. Statements of a similar nature have been made by Dr. Hook, and other persons who have devoted considerable time end attention to the cause of education, and all concur in agreeing, in opposition to the statements of Mr. Baines, that the education of the country is extremely e 2fective.-(Hear, hear.) This statement does not, hoe- ser, rest upon statements of this sort. It will be fore'', by a reference to the mar riage registers, that there are forty out of every 100 married who cannot write their nemes—thirty in every 100 who cannon read.—(Hear, hear.) This, we must own, is an immense proportion, when we consider that the schools of Bell and Lancaster have been established now for upwards of forty years, and that voluntary education has been ever since that time doing its utmost to overtake and subdue this amount of ignorance. In ri report furnished by some inspectors who were sent down to inspect and report upon the state of education in schools belonging to the voluntary esta blishment, it is stated that there are great numbers of persons who are not in the habit of attending any place of public wor4hip, and to whom the name of God and Christ was utterly unknown. Not many years since I referred to the statement of a chaplain of one of the county gaols, I have lately consulted again the report cf that gentleman ; he is a person who has taken the greatest pains to inform himself of the condition of the persons brought into that place, and in that report ho states that during his three years' stay at that place the performance of his duties has brought him into contact with 1,733 men and boys, and 387 women and girls; and of these the majority could neither read or write, and were also ignorant of the name of Gel and of Christ, and of such things as virtue or vice, holiness or heaven. There was a case, Sir, in which some of the boys be longing to a s chool were desired to read th at c h apter o f Si. Mathew's Gospel containing an account of " the marriage in Cana in Gallilee," who were utterly unac quainted with the meaning of the word marriage. With the e ersons who were meaning of the respect to the secular cationed of fedber of prisoners in one of the gaols, it e by the inspectors that there were 90 persons unable to name the months a o c n ou d ld a not num d b e e fi r definee f of the year, 104 unable to tell the name of the reigning unable to count es high es 100. Sir, I confess it ap pears to me a very shecking thing that education is not to these persons until they are sent to the gaol. given Sovereign,termsvirtue 100: vice,w h (Rear, bear.) There are many occasion s i n w hi ch pri soners had been in duced to bless the day in which they had been sent to prisons, because they have after their discharge conducted themselves in a respectable manner and earned as honest livelihood. But, Sir, is it not desirable that before the people reached that Once they should, wh il e young, while impressions can be easily made upon them, be instructed in their knowledge, end in their duties. At a public meeting recently held in the City, one of the speakers had a written question put into his hands, the effect of which was, whethe: it would be the best to erect a guide-post at the commeecement of the journey or at the end ? To this question the speaker replied, " But what if the guide-post should be the gibbott ?" Ido not, Sir, consider that the education given either by the National Sch, Society or by the British and Foreign School Society, is of such a nature ay to justify a any person in saying that it was likely to lead a man to the gibbet.— (11ear, hear.) Another courae has been t a k en i n oppo sition to this tneasur:, by a gentleman whom I regret to see opposed to the plan before the Houee. The amount of that gentleman's argument is this—that there is a ce rt a in class of people in this country which is found in con nexion with vice and crime, with ignorance and brutal sensuality; and in that condition the people must be left. For them no means of education are to be provided Imprisonment, transportation, and the gallows aro for them, but none of the milder means of religion or know ledge. Sir, I never can consent to such a proposition as this. lam not disposed to entertain extravaf,,rant opi nions upon the subject, nor do I suppose that vice will be effectually overcome, but still I trust that the number may be diminished, and that not only the path of duty, but the path of worldly advantage, point to education ; and I hope that by this means many may be rescued from the hands of crime and misery, and we should then have the happiness of saying that we had performed the duty incumbent upon us, and we can with better conscience and more satisfaction to ourselves, say to the criminal that the punishment which the laws inflicted upon him we had endeavoured to avert as far as in us lay,: and that we would have led you to the paths of virtue, and it is not by our law that you have come to this disgrace and punishment.— (Cheers.) 'With respect to some objections urged against the particular plan before the House, I cannot help saying, that I think there is considerable force in them; but still, although the measure is not exactly what we might wish, still it must be borne in mind that we had to deal with a great number of existing schools, which already occupied the ground ; and which, according to their own system, ought to impart educa tion in the way that seemed to them the most likely to produce the desired result. I must confess that I think the measure would have been better had it pro moted a more general system of education, and one in which both the children of the members of the Church and those of Dissenters might have joined. The first of these in point of numbers and amount is the National Society, in connexion with the Church of Eng land. There are more than 900,000 day scholars in their schools, and the amount of their funds is very large. The rule in all these schools is, that the liturgy and the catechism shall be taught, and there is likewise a neces sity that all the children shall go to the Established Church on Sunday. They have now relaxed with re gard to the rule, and leave it to the managers of the schools. But we had to consider, in 1839, whether we ought to have attempted to spread over the country one general system of education, and one that did not agree with the British and Foreign School Society and the Dissenters. It would have been very unwise to have made such an attempt in 1839 as now, and Ido not think that the prejudice which existed against it would act otherwise than to create division, and eventually failure. We said that in 1839, with regard to the Church schools, they were to act according to their own views, and that we would not interfere with religious instruction in any other way than that the Church inspectors appointed by the Privy Council should visit the schools and report as to the kind and degree of education given. With respect to the other schools, we stated that we would not inter fere with respect to the religious instruction given in them, but with regard to the secular part of the instruc tion—that the inspectors should report upon it and upon the state of the schools and their efficiency. Now, Sir, the rule adopted in 1839 with respect to the building of schools, and adopted now with respect to the educa tion of the pupil teachers and stipendiary monitors in Church schools, is, that there shall be an exami nation of the pupils in the Church catechism and the liturgy, but in schools not connected with the church of England no examination of that kind is to take place except as to the secular branches of learning. We con fine our examination to the secular branches of learn ing. It seems to me exceedingly strange that there are many persons who agree with me that education ought to receive some assistance from the State by a grant of public money—agreeing with me that it is not sufficient that voluntary efforts should be made—agreeing with me that the state of crime calls for some effort on the part of the Government—and yet say that these rules con tain such a violation of the liberty of conscience, that they cannot assist or even partake of any grant pro ceeding from such a source. Yet these are the same parties who in 1839 consented that schools should be built in the proportion of 18s. 6d. to the pound, and that in the schools the liturgy and catechism of the Church of England should be used. I own that I cannot under stand the nice distinction which these persons make on this occasion; for be it observed it is not a a question in which the Church of England arrogates to itself the power of superintending the instruction of the people. All that the Church of England asks is this, that in her schools—schools raised by the Church of England, and built by members of her communion, that her liturgy and catechism should be taught. It seems to me to be a scheme not of a compulsory nature, but one in perfect accordance with religious liberty, and with which Dissenters ought to be satisfied. If, indeed, the Church subscribed a much larger amount than the Dissenters, then of course they would be entitled to a larger share of public grant. But that was not a differ • ence in principle, but one which arose from its prac tical operation. Ido not, therefore, see why the Dis senters should refuse to acquiesce in this grant in con sequence of part of the money going to the schools of the Church of England. This is not the whole of State education. It is only in aid of voluntary effort.—(Hear, hear.) We take the schools exactly where they are situated. We find the schools existing in the respective localities. We impose upon them no terms which are not in accordance with the rules which are established for their manage ment, To say, then, that the State should Rot under take the education of the whole people might be a good objection where such a thing was proposed, but it was by no means applicable to the present scheme, even if a large amount of public money was to be devoted to it. — (Hear, hear.) Sir, it is said that some other better acheme of education might be proposed which would be more to the purpose—that it would be better to confine ourselves to secular education—and, with regard to reli gious education, not to interfere, but to leave it to the ministers and religious instructors of the various de nominations. As far as I understand Dr. Ball, he had no objection to assist the Church of England schools or those of the voluntary societies ; but he would have the inspectors of the State take no notice of the religious instruction of the pupils. Now, that is nearly the same thing as we are proposing to do, and 1 think that this is ' rather a distinction without a difference. But there are others who speak of a secular education, and who mean very differently—a school was to be established by the State, and the school master a State officer, and to have nothing to do with the communication of religious instruction, which was to be left to the respective ministers of the parents of the children. This view was brought for ward by the Hon. Member for Bath some years ago, but to such a scheme I have the most decided objection. To omit altogether the inculcation of religious duties, to omit the precept of the love of God and the love of their neighbour, would be in my mind a great, a se rious, and an irreparable loss. I think no advantage of uniting the various religious sects, would compen sate for this apparent declaration on the part of the State, that secular education alone would absorb its attention to the exclusion of religious instruc tion. Ido not think that this would be found to operate well, and I likewise do not believe that from the manner in which the time of the children of the labouring poor is occupied, you could impart to them in this way a sufficient amount of religious instruction. In addition to this, I think it is a scheme which would not be accept able to the people themselves,—(Hear, hear)—and I am of opinion they would be likely to confound such a scheme with irreligion.—(Hear, hear.) They would be wrong, I admit, in that interpretation of it; but still, no explanation or evidence which might be given them to the contrary would be so strong as to overpower and put an end to that feeling. The question, therefore, I have to ask the House is whether, considering the various difficulties with which this question is surrounded, it is prepared to go with us in giving a grant of money to be disposed of according to the Minutes of the Privy Council, or whether it will go with the Honourable Gentleman the Member for Finsbury and propose against us a vote of censure.—(Hear, hear.) But, Sir, before I sit down I wish to direct the attention of the House to ono or two other points, which I think deserve some notice ; and, in the first place, with re gard to the claims of the Roman Catholics. Now, Sir, with respect to that subject I have to say that, in the minutes of August and December, 1846, it never arose. 'There were certain rules laid down in conformity with the original intentions of the Privy Council, and to these only was their attention directed. By these minutes it was settled that no school should receive a grant for education unless the Scriptures were read daily in it. If, however, the Catholics had a desire to establish schools, and, for my own part, I should be glad of such an intention, I think the greatest caution is requisite in h e it r e would Protestant drawing up minutes by which grants to such schools have:would m b o n o a sti c authorised. seooi I do schools t w think or p n p o o t r t b u n e i t o y s t h o n u n ld o o a f bl r i e st ad ed iug op th en e e ß h i i b l l d e r . e n T w h o a u t l wouldschools have s to this objection, I am not prepared to say, but I see no reason why that difficulty should be raised now. Although half a million of money has been expended in education under the superintendence of the Privy Conn cil, not a shilling had gone to a Roman Catholic school. I therefore see no reason why such an objection should be raised now, unless f o r th e p ur p ose of throwing a stumbling-block in our w ay. (Hear, hear. It would be supposed from this that we are about to in crease the number of officers engaged in the collection of the revenue---(llear, hear) —when —w en the fact is, that there will be the same number of officers ; and, instead of these appointments being given to those who say " they are quite sure that the gentleman they recommend is a staunch political adherent "—(Roars of laughter)—that he, besides that, " reads and writes very well, and keeps accounts very well," and that he is in all respects well qualified to fill the office which they seek to ebtain for him—(Continued laughter.) Now they will merely say " that he reads and writes very well, that he keeps accounts well, and that he has been religiously brought up," omitting alto ;;ether the political part of the subject—(Cheers and laughter)--: , o that the assertion that this is a great scheme to increase Government patronage is a most idle apprehension.—(Cheers.) Sir, with regard to one point, which is indeed touched upon in this resolution, and which I am aware, entails very great hardships on those who attend many of the Church schools of this country, as there is a refusal to parents to allow their children to come to these schools unless they will learn the cate chism. and attend the school and the church on Sundays. —(Hear, hear) —with regard to that rule, we neither promote nor encourage it. If we had made it a condi tion on any. isdf those grounds, that any of those funda mental rules on which the schools are conducted, should , be departed from before they should receive aid from the' State, s h o uld lose the advantage of havin g such school we s well instructed and conducted as they are at present. But for my part, I cannot but think that the Church itself will gain a great advantage by allowing parents to send their children to these schools without i ns isting upon the children learning either the catechism or being required to attend Church on Sundays. --(Hear, hear.) I believe that the rule of the Wesleyan body is this :—that it allows the parents to educate their children according to their own religious convictions ; and that I think is the best and at the same time the most charitable rule, as it tends materially to diminish that ill-feeling which might otherwise be en- gendered. I shall receive with pleasure any improve tnent upon the rules to be adopted in the schools with respect to these things. Ido nut think that this grant of 100,0001., of which a part will go to the dissenting bodies, would entitle the Crown to exercise an undue influence over voluntary societies. I say again, I should like to see a change with respect to the rule adopted in the schools in connexion with the Church ; and I say further, that if any body of Dissenters are willing to send their children to the Church schools, but whicht hey are prevented from doing, by the existence of this rule, I think that would be an additional reason for granting aid to that place, in order that a school might be opened where all the children of the town or village might attend.—(Hear, hear.) But, Sir, the question is the scheme, being—as I will admit it is—very imperfect in many respects. The question is whether you will not, in any way, try to combat the evil which Dr. Vaughan describes in terms which I will now read.— (The Noble Lord then read an extract from a letter by the Rev. Gentleman, stating that the children of the poor were growing up in ignorance and poverty ; and that unless these evils were obviated that they would become a source of danger to the State.—(Hear, hear.) I own, Sir, I cannot but consider after reading that passage and feeling impressed with its truth, that any one should be an opponent to this system of education.—(Hear, hear.) On my own part, seeing the evil is great, I am not dis posed to wait till I can get a more perfect scheme. I am disposed rather to feel my way—to proceed as well as wo can—until at length we may find that there is some scheme which possesses a higher claim to be con sidered, as one which will promote, in a greater degree, the intelligence of the people of this country, and on which those of different persuasions will unite and emu late each other in rendering them most conducive to the cultivation of the people—then I shall be happy to en courage a scheme of education which will meet with the concurrence of those different denominations. In the meantime, all I ask you for are these means—inade quate as they are—with the view, in some degree, to dispel that ignorance—in some degree to promote religion and virtue among a great mass of the people. When I ask you to do so, I am well aware of the opposition which this scheme has met with—well aware that it would have been easier to have shrunk from the task, and not have asked this House to grant anything more than the millions upon millions which already have been granted to the military forces of this country; it would been easier to have said, " Let us have the usual millions which you have voted from time to time for the army, and navy, and for the ordnance ; but we will not ask for a single farthing for the purposes of education." But, Sir, that would not have been consistent with the duty which we feel pressing upon us—to improve as far as in us lies, the school teaching in this country—to assist, as far as in us lies, in giving a knowledge of the ways of virtue and knowledge—of the truths of religion to many of the uninstructed masses of this country ; and be the opposition what it may—however formidable it may be at this moment—however formidable it may be—and I lament to say, that such is the case, and that the proposition has withdrawn from us the aid and support of many who " through good and evil report" have supported our political mea sures—be these evils what they may, it will be a consolation to me to know that I have made an attempt to diminish the empire of ignorance, and to raise the people of this country in the scale of virtue and religion, so that they may take a high and enviable position amongst the people of all the nations of the world. —(The Noble Lord resumed his seat amidst loud cheers.) Mr. T. DUNCOMBE then rose, but owing to the noise which prevailed occasioned by many Members leaving the House, the commencement of his observa tions were not very distinctly heard. He said, no one could be so unreasonable as to blame the Noble Lord for the course he had adopted on the present occasion, because he believed he was conscientiously discharging his duty ; but, during the twenty-one years he had the honour to have had a seat in that House,.he did not re collect a Prime Minister of the country ever paying so great a compliment as to notice an individual Member of that House, particularly so humble a Member as him self, and to condescend, and if possible, prejudice the minds.of the House against the motion which he (Mr. Duncombe) had placed upon the paper. The Noble Lord might call his view of the matter an " idle appre hension. His consolation was that these apprehensions were participated in by thousands, by millions of his countrymen. The Noble Lord might call his resolution a vote of censure on the Government, and a want of con fidence in her Majesty's Privy Council. If he chose to adopt it as a vote of censure, he must do so; but if he asked him if he had any confidence in the Council— or rather in the Committee of the Privy Council, that self-elected tribunal who were to be intrusted with the carrying out of that scheme—in that tribunal he had no confidence whatever. However the great question involved in the motion might suffer in his hands, yet he did feel confident that if the motion failed it would not fail because there was anything in the re quest he was about to make that was unconstitutional, or at variance with Parliamentary usage, or the practise of that House; but if the motion failed, he felt that it would fail in consequence of the inability which any individual—an independent Member of that House— must have in coping with that Ministerial influence which he knew had been and was to be brought to bear against his motion; and one of the difficulties with which he should have to contend arose out of the agree ment and understanding, if not absolute compact, which they had entered into with the members of the Church of England and certain members of the Dissenting community—compacts and understandings which he would say were most disgraceful to those who had made them calling themselves " her Ma jesty's Liberal Ministry"—in the face of their former opinions and their avowed principles. His consolation, at all events, would be, if he should fail that he believed that he had the support and good wishes on this occasion of a great portion of his country men. If they asked him what made him think so, he should reply that since he gave notice of his motion the other day, he had received communications from all parts of the country asking him to persevere in his 'notion, and saying that the House would neglect its duty and betray its trust if it did not grant a Committee of inquiry; or give, at all events, some information beyond that which the Noble Lord had given before it voted away any portion of the public money. Many of them were connected as well with the church as with the dissenters, and they stated further, that if ho had placed his motion earlier on the paper, they would have been better enabled to have supported him by meetings and petitions ; but if he had done so there would have been but one discussion, whereas now the whole question would be fully debated. Notwithstand ing the views of the Noble Lord, he was still of opinion that the scheme would prove dangerous both to civil and religious liberty ; that it was a scheme to increase the power of the Church ; that it exceeded the functions of Parliament'; and that it would prove an injustice to that portion of the community who would be compelled to contribute to its maintenance, but who would derive no benefit whatever from its establishment ; and besides, it would not attain the object it sought to accomplish, as it would carry jealousy and dissension into every locality in this c ountry if it should be carried. The Noble Lord had talked about intimidation having been used to prevent the Members of that House from doing their duty ; but he should like to know what means had been adopted on the other side to get up demonstrations in favour of the Government measure ? In 1839 the Government postponed a national scheme of education because they found they could not reconcile the differences which prevailed on the subject; but after the petitions w hich had been presented that night against the present scheme, he asked whether there was any thing like concurrence or approbation in favour of it ? The Noble Lord might feel himself very strong in having bought off the Wesleyans, and obtained the sup port of the Church of England. He denied, however, that the whole body of the Church of England intended to support the Government, as a petition which he had presented from the diocese of York stated that the peti tioners were but beginning to understand the plan, and saying that they were at a loss to know what portion of the clergy were in favour of it, as they were entirely at a loss to know. These were not idle apprehensions. as the Noble Lord had called them, but the apprehen sions of members of the Established Church. Ile agreed entirely in the prayer of that petition. The House had witnessed what had been presented—that an immense majority were against it, and that but a small number were in favour of it, and that they were pre sented by tho Noble Lord ; and it was right that the House should know how they were obtained. They proceeded principally from Members of the Established Church, and when it suited the Noble Lord he could get up demonstrations in favour of this measure. There were 12,000 parishes in this country, yet after all the endeavours of Lord Ashley, making arrangements first with the Wesleyans, and next with the Church of Eng land, he had not been able to accomplish much in favour of the Government plan. He held a prospectus in his hand of a society established to advocate the Government plan, the Chairman of which was Lord Ashley ; and then be had a copy of a circular which had been sent round to all likely to lend themselves to getting up demonstra tions in favour of it. It was dated April 6, 1847, and after commencing Reverend Sir, went on to state that as it had been already asserted, that there should be an ex pression of opinion on the part of those favourable to the measure, the signer of the circular wished the parson to whom it was addressed to get signatures without delay to a petition in favour of the scheme ; so that every parson in a village was to become a petition agent for the Government—it went on, "to a petition, one which is sent"—sent all cut and dried from the Privy t Council no doubt—(Laughter)—" the petition m ust be written on parchment, and one or more name s must be written on the body of it." — (Con tinued laug hter.) If this was not done, no doubt his Honourable Friend who was on the printing Committee, would not allow it to be printed. It went on, "As they must be sent in before the 17th, no time is to be lost ; and they may be either sent to me pre-paid— (Laughter)—(that was a most material point in the mat ter, they were all pre-paid at the parcel office), or to the Right on. Lord J. Russell, M.P.—(Roars of laughter) —l3, Chesham-place, who has kindly promised to take charge of them.—(Continued laughter.) (Sig n ed) H Hughes, Gordon-square, Incumb ent o f All Sa int s." Ile (Mr. Duncombe) imagined th a t h e would no t be long allowed to remain an in cum b ent, and that he would be promoted to a bishopric. - -(Hear, hear . ) Then came the postscript, whi c h, as i n all letters , was the most important part of the document. " I have authority to state, that the authorised Scriptures must be read daily in all the schools receiving aid from the State."-e(fiear.) Ile Noble Lord had told them of the destitute condi tion of the different classes of the community as far as regarded education. Why then had he not taken any notice of the Roman Catholic whom he was about to exclude. He held in his hand a statement taken from the " Catholic Directory of 1846," where it was stated, that there were in the different districts of London, 65,307 Roman Catholics, poor persons requiring gratui tous education ; and that out of these there are only 30,207 who receive it. He should like to know why these other 30,207 unfortunates had not attracted the Noble Lord's attention; but was this the only exclusion? w is this the only compromise which had taken place? What did the House think of the Wesleyan compromise, also made at the expense of the Roman Catholics? He would read an accurate statement of what had occurred —stated in a letter to him from a private gentleman, " I need hardly say, although a Protestant, that I feel the conduct of the Government towards the Roman Catholics to be peculiarly base.—(Hear.) The dissenters, as well as churchmen, owe you a debt of gratitude for the notice which you have given them." The following was a history of the Wesleyan compromise :—About a fortnight since, the Secretary of the Wesleyan Society called a meeting for the purpose of forming certain resolutions, which had been agreed upon at a previous meeting. Before they entered upon business, they were informed was in w a i t i ng — he was admitted, and that Lord Ashley stated himself to be commissioned by the Government to negotiate with them, in order to buy off their oppo sition to the Government plan.—(Hear. hear.) Lord Ashley stated that the Roman Catholic Schools would be excepted from the benefits to be conferred by this Bill ; an object which would be very grateful to the Wesleyans. The meeting came to no conclusion, and it was adjourned to Manchester, to take the opinion of some of its members engaged in the manufacturing districts. The Wesleyans met on the 9th of April, and again on the 14th instant. The state ment that the Bill had for its express purposes the ex clusion of the Roman Catholics had its desired object. The claims of the Catholics were to be consi dered in another minute, and the Wesleyans were not to be prejudiced from offering it any opposition they might think fit. It was also agreed that no person in holy orders should be admitted a master of a school, a provision made for the express purpose of defeating a proposition of the Bishop of Exeter.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. MACAULEY.—This is all a romance. Mr. DUNCOMBE.—WiII the Right Hon. Gentleman say that Catholics are not to be excluded? If he does, I will admit the romance. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded : He had received a letter from Leeds con taining the resolutions which had been adopted at a meeting there of the Roman Catholics. Those resolu tions he trusted would find an echo in the breast of every member in that House. " The Committee has read with astonishment the reply of Lord John Russell re specting the additional grant for the purposes of education." " The Government, in order to ap pease sectarian intolerance and clamour, were pre pared to deprive them of the united benefit of a fund to which they equally contributed." And that they could not but look with contempt and resent ment upon a Ministry who were about to create a new Bill of disabilities on their Roman Catholic subjects. . Now there was no romance in all this, it was unfortu nately a reality.—(Hear, hear.) But he would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, who said that this was a romance, when he was opposing Lord Stanley's motion for the revocation of these minutes, whether he understood that they were exclu sive to Roman Catholics? He would ask the same ques tion of his Noble Friend the Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire? If he did, his speech was most belied, and most misreported. Lord. Stanley stated that the Scriptures were to be read daily as a part of the national system. He said that it had been objected to - the former scheme that it was impracticable to unite so many different per ' sons of different religious opinions. Lord Morpeth asked, was it right or proper to exclude their dissenting brethren ? "He had no high opinion of many Roman Catholic doctrines—of the Unitarians he had his own opinions—but as long as they employed Roman Catholics, and as long as they fingured Unitarian gold, they could not refuse to share their privileges, or exclude them from benefits to which they equally contributed. Now he (Mr. Duncombe) could not conceive that there could be anything so clear as what were the intentions of her Majesty's Ministers, and he could not help thinking that this was base trickery to buy off the opposition of some co this new measure. These sentiments of ,the Noble Lord were applauded by Lord John Russell, Mr. O'Connell, Mr. Hawes, and others.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped and trusted th a t th ere wou ld b e f oun d a sufficient spirit in that House not to vote away any of the public money unless the public were equally benefited.—(Hear.) Lord Dlorpoth in a subsequent speech said that "he would be ashamed if he did not think that every man in the country—be he Churchman or Dissenter—was equally entitled to the support of the Government. He found the Church making the first great claim upon the property of the country; but the Church itself ought to be greatly obliged to Dissenters, for the example which they had set her.— (eTheers.) That was the Noble Lord's opinion in 1842. He should like to know, would they have attempted this exclusivism had Mr. O'Connell been in that House ? He believed not. He would nut believe that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dungarvon would go out on the same lobby with the Noble Lord, he would not be lieve that he would be a party to create a new Bill of pains and disabilities, and throw a stigma on his religion. The Noble Lord had said nothing about the probable cost of the scheme. He would ask any man—any gentleman in that house if he could say within half a million of money what would be the cost of this scheme ten years hence. Mr. MACAULAY.—One penny per head. Mr. DUNCOMBE.—They only called for 100,000/. this year, but they were laying the foundation of a scheme which according to the calculations which others had made, and which they had not proved to be wrong, would cost in two years hence nearly two millions. How was that money to be got to support the expenses of the alterations which were to made under these minutes which had been laid on the table of both Houses of Parliament. Me objected to the unconstitu tional character of this Committee of the Privy Council, and he did not think that there was anything in the manner in which these minutes had been laid on the table to entitle the Committee of Privy Council to the confidence of the country.—(Hear, hear.)—When the minutes were laid upon the table of the House by Lord Lansdowne, nothing was said as to their nature and character. It was argued in the Privy Council, and then laid on the table of both Houses without any prefatory remarks, for they did not appear likely to read to any confusion to require the sanction of the House of Lords. It did not require that in order to give effect to any Bill that the consent of the House of Commons should be given. In the view of the Privy Council, the President of the Privy Council had only to take the minutes to the Lords and Commons, and there let them digest them if they could. It Was a great condescension on the part of the president to say anything at all about them. Let the people pay their money and be grateful. Such was the opinion of this secret tribunal. If they looked at the minutes them selves, they would find that they were objectionable, not only on the ground of cost, but also as a general scheme. lie had said that it would not accomplish that which it professed to attain. It would create undue influence, increase the power of the Crown, and the patronage of the Government. It appears that these minutes were thought of and framed on the 20th of August last, when some general minutes were agreed upon, and the President of the Council re tired for four months until he could prepare a further set of minutes for the regulation of education, pupil teachers, and stipendiary monitors. He must say that, looking at the minutes altogether, independently of their unconsti tutional character—for he thought that never was such a piece of quackery put together as the whole of these minutes. Talk of Professor Ady and Morrison's pills. Give him Mr. Kay Shuttleworth.—(Laughter.) This measure was absurd to all practical working men, and more particularly in that portion which referred to the workshops and industrial schools—it was the laughing stock of the country. There were pupil teachers, ap prenticed pupil teachers, who had a five year's appren ticeship to undergo. The Privy Council ought certainly to be called inquisitors in this in stance, for the education of the children would be assigned to inspectors appointed by the Privy Coun cil. nt The tn at t r o e n was s w n ee o n t t m be uc b i e l y d s iff a e n i d e g ne ir e ls i , n ex t c h e e pt c t o h u e r gir ls se of only being required to be versed in the geography of the British Empire. The girls were not required to proceed beyond " Compound Proportion " in figures. Now such a thing was really preposterous—those who were to be their future kitchen-maids ,and house-maids, are to be crammed by the compound proportion of the parochial clergyman.—(Bear, hear, and laughter.) In the third year the examination differed but little from that of the first ; and, in the fouth year, they required a knowledge of vocal music and drawing, (specially from models. This was not absolutely required, because the means of teaching it might not exist in every school. The Right Hon. Gentleman would say that it was easy to have models for every school, according to the pre sent " Poses Plastiques. '—(Laughter.) Tho work ing men had a strong sense of the i njury which they would inflict upon themselves by supporting this measure.—(clear, hear.) (It would have the effect of excluding the rural districts Fntire b ly fo f r r e o from the benefits of the scheme, f o r th w reeequthe ired e sum should grant of any sum was made, that t besides a house rent free, 401. would be thus raised ii , some places not 15/. or 20/. be raised by contributions, so that for a grant of 201., which would make 6 h ol. I many of the rural districts could be raised fort e edua t t h io e n re of' wo ch ul i d ldr b e e n , n s o o that nen in g i ve n, and the . d n i t s e t n ri a c n t ee 'w o o f u o ld the b r e se c h o o m o p is e . ilet h t e o p p ro a p y o e s it a s l oindustrial artisan, sa s an e am. h schools ooTlwsh The upsrtouee share of the maintenance necessarily be marketer pr i a o s e the as produce eomng of these an wi t i h n injury regardto ttohethhe Is sl m cil u le s d t b a e rt s is o a ld n of f h t o h o e from an establishment of which the Government bore the expense, so that the trades, already down to the level of merely a b' su sistence, would be still more seriously injured. How was a man having to pay rent and taxes, and find his own tools, to compete with those who were supported by the Government? Besides, it was known to be impossible to teach any of these trades thoroughly without a regular apprenticeship far different from that which these per sons would receive in the Government establishments. The working classes had already seen the mischievous effects of the measure; they had rejected all the attempts of the Government to cajole or bribe them by specious promises of provision for their children. At a meeting at Birmingham, lately, it was rejected by a majority of 152, showing the determination of the working classes to permit the interfer'nce of the Privy Council. But they never would submit that they should not combine for tha purpose of protecting themselves. The working men were not so ignorant as they had been represented, and knowing from experience how their funds bad hitherto been exhausted in strikes and contests, they had resolved to act in a different manner in future. They had now a national combination of trades, and instead of expending their funds in a foolish and useless manner, they now expended them in furnishing the raw material of their respective trades, and in reproduclive labour, in order to elevate the condition of their order. This was a new principle of action and highly creditable to the working classes. It was only last week that at Notting ham where the frame-workers who were Members of the national union, had succeded in preventing 80 abate- large Lably door le of tatue s tale. -ei of p pert New ick ; lon ; s-ef iers , ; Qew stb , nic ign- Ay's g 01 gig t Or to. he