The Sun. — London, England, 1840-02-14 00:00:00

, THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 14, 1840. ledge thst Government might possess as to its means of meeting those difficulties?—( Hear.) It would not be sufficient to tell them, acme months hence, that there was a deficiency ; but they should know what was the state of their affairs before they could take the important and serious steps by which alone they could remedy them. It was not his business to present to the House an account of the financial state of the country. He only called for materials on which the House itself might form a judg ment. He might, however, state, and he thought he was bound to do so as an additional reason for granting the motion he was making—he might state the estimate which be was led to form of our financial condition from such criterions as were then within his reach. He would give the statement in round numbers, in order that he might not trespass on the attention of the House beyond what the real necessity of the House might require. He would look back to the accounts of the last three years, which accounts were made from January to January. He found that in 1837 there was a deficit in the public revenue of 728,000/.—(Hear, hear.) In 1338 there was a de ficit of 440,000 L, making a deficit, for both years, of 1,166,0001. In 1889, that deficit was augmented by 1,512,0001., making at the end of 1889 an accumulated deficit of 1,678,0001. Under these circumstances, was he not justified ; n asking the House for a statement of the deficit which might be expected for the current year?— (Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) How long could they wait for that statement, and was not every one anxious to be informed with regard to it? He perceived that there was at present an augmentation in the navy expenses of bOO,OOO/. Now, be asked, whether that was not a reason why the deficit of 1,502,0001., which had becurred in 1339, mightinot again occur in the year 1840. Suppose that 1,,a12,0001. deficit of 1839 should be the same in 1840, they would then have to add to it the 600,000/. in the expenses of the navy, to which he had already adverted. '1 isat. would make the entire deficit of the present year amount to 4,000,090/. If to that they added the deficit of the three preceding years, the entire sum would amount at the end of the present year to 4,678,000/. He was afraid, however, that that we s onli a part of the difficulties they might have to expect. He had been compelled io make more statements by reason of the oppaeitino made to his motion. He had not, however, adverted to the great gtiption of the Post office reform.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear ? ?? from the Opposition beaches.) Whatevei d e fi cit mi g ht occur in that department ehould be added to that he had alreedy stated, and he would venture to say after the best judg, silent be could form on the subject. The Wght Hon. Gentleman opposite might porrect him if . he was wrong, he would state from the best informat ion he could ob tain, tlia the deficit in the Post-office during the present year would :!rnount to no Icsa than 1,:.300,000/. or 1,400,0001. From an the information he could obtain, he believed that the Post-office was not at present paying its expenses. If they would add the, 1,200,0001 deficit in that department toithat lie had already mor i tionod,they wetild h4vp in all a deficit of nearly 0,000,000/. at the end of the pre • sent year. Was that a state of things under Well the House should remain silent ?—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) Was that a state of things %%bleb they should allow to pass by with quiet forbearance, and were they to suffer the Right Hon. Gentleman at his own time and lei sure to tell them in the way he should think proper, of the manner in which he was to meet those tremendous dia.. eulties.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) Oa the subject of the Post-office it was impossib i o to say any, thing without making those observations which he believed were called forth by the extraordinary conduct of Govern. ment on the question.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") That was a principle ingredient in the evils they had to complain of—that was a wanton aggravation of their diffi culties.—(Hear.) In the midst of the deficits of 1837, 1838, and three parts of 1839, and in the knowledge of the accumulated difficulties which those deficits would bring— in the midst of all these circumstances they had chosen such a time for a reduction in the Post-office.—( Opposition sheers.) When Ministers had undertaken that extraordinary proceeding they were aware of the disadvantages it might lead to. Lord Melbourne, in introducing the Bill into the House of Lords, had observed that " last year, and indeed for the last two years, the income of the country bad not been equal to its expenditure ; that this had not arisen from any falling-off from the revenue, but was en tirely owing to a great increase in the public expense." The Noble Lord might then have been asked if that were the proper thee for venturing to tamper with the revenue of the Post-office ? When such a question had been put, the Noble Lord answered that " the very general feeling and concurrence of all parties in favour of the plan, was a matter which it was difficult to resist."—(Loud Opposi tion cheers.) That, then, was all the reason they had assigned for that aggravation of their difficulties. Why did not the Noble Lord come down to Parliament and state his objections to the measure ? Could he have had any difficulty in doing so? He knew perfectly well that, by resisting an unreasonable proposal, and that by telling Parliament that be was pressed from without, but that be looked to the support of the gentlemen of England—( Hear) —he should have known that, under these circumstances, the gentlemen of England would not have been indisposed to support him.—(Loud Opposition cheers.) It would then have been sound and politic of him to refuse the making of so dangerous an experiment. He would not have objected to that regulation, if the finances of the counti y were in a more favourable condition. He would not have objected to burden the country in some other form, if they had a large surplus to rely on ; but at the time the experiment had been made, and after the decla ration of Lord Melbourne had been made, the measure in question appeared to him to be contrary to all sound, and he should say, to almost all honest policy —( Opposition cheers.) Another circumstance deserving of notice in that transaction was, that the Government itself had never been convinced that it was a good one.—( Hear.) Why, then, had the Government yielded on the occasion ? What was the security they bad gained by it ? Had they re luctantly made a compact, in order that they might bold their places ?—( Hear, bear, and loud cheering.) In bringing forward the measure there had been many warnings against it in that House. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer brought it forward with great reluc tance, and satisfied his conscience in the strangest way, —( Hear, hear.) He said, " We shall lose a revenue. but get a pledge."—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") There were other deficiencies, however, which he (Mr. Herries) trusted would soon be filled up ; for nothing, in his opinion, would be so lamentably pernicious as to con. time the service of the country in a time of peace by peace loans.—( Hear, hear.) This unfortunate state of affairs bad not been arrived at without the strongest warn ing on the part of those on the Opposition Benches, who bad always taken a prominent part in financial matters. The Right Hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Goulburn) had constantly, on every Budget, warned against the impolicy o' yielding financial reductions to popular clamour.---( Hear.) And the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had, in a memorable speech during Lord Altherp's time, strenuously exposed the imprudence of baxtily taking off taxes which must be afterwards as hastily se-imposed.—(Hear, hear.) Between 1816 and 1829 a reduction of the annual public burdens to the amount of 3,200.,000/. had taken place, while at the same time taxes had been reduced to the amount of 27,000,0001. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had never suf fered the revenue to languish--be had never had deb- elencies—( Hear, hear)—he had left to Lord Althorp a surplus of three millions.—(hear, hear.) Lord Althorp had the first deficiency, owing to too easy concession of re ductions. His Lordship, however, had always been a dis tinguished anti-surplus statesman. Still he had called a surplus of 300,0001. " going too near the margin." Ile had strenuously resisted imprudent reductions of taxation. How boldly had he stood out against the reduction of the Malt Tax 1—( Hear, hear.) Now it was impossible to deny that the evils this displayed in the present state of the revenue had arisen, not from any mal-administration of the financial accounts—of the mere department of the Exchequer—but from the wretched policy of the Govern ment for the last ten years.—( Loud cheers.) The pre sent Chancellor of the Exchequer of course could not plead ignorance, from his having lately come into the office—(`' Hear," from Mr. Baring)—seeing that the Right Hon. Gentleman had long be :m the right hand of the Exchequer.—( Hear.) In speaking thus of financial embarrassments, he ( Mr. Herries) would not be understood again as tracing them to any deficiency in the resources of the country. He ascribed them to the mal-administration of those resources—( Hear, hear)—to a bad Government, defective in sagacity, firmness, and decision.—( Hear, hear.) 'de was satisfied that never were the resources of the empire in a better or more vigorous state. He re pudiated with scorn the idea so often foolishly given cur rency to, that England was bound down,. in a penalty of 700,000,0001., to keep the peace, to refrain from war. He was convinced that there was yet wealth and resources in the empire to retrieve the baneful effects of the injurious course of ill policy and mal-administration of the present Government.—( Cheers from the Opposition benches.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was quite aware that every Minister of the Crown must be prepared to undergo that burden of imputation and in sinuation which he had been compelled to share upon the present occasion with the Government of which he was a member ; and he was equally aware that to an opposition no other motives would present themselves for such a pro ceeding as this, but those of the purest patriotism, and the most disinterested sense of duty.—( Ironical cries of " Hear, hear.") Unwilling as he was to violate the rules of cour tesy between Members of that House, he must say that had the Right Hon. Gentleman taxed all his ingenuity to give the most embarrassment and inconvenience to those conduct ing the Government, he could not have succeeded better.— (Cheers.) In the first place he wished it to be understood that the only part of the returns moved for to which he ob jected was, the estimate of the produce of the Consolidated Fund for 1840. He wished to withdraw no accounts—no information—but that which would practically be fore stalling the budget—the estimate of the income of the fu ture year.—( Hear.) Now the Right lion. Gentleman had admitted that his was no ordinary, no customary motion. But he had attempted to justify it by accusing the Go vernment of a systematic suppression of their financial ar rangements in a systematic refusal of information on that subject. Why that charge was upset by the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, who had confessed that the Noble Lord (J. Russell), at a period when a Minister would have been most reluctant to make the admission, at the close of the last great dehate—( Hear, hear)—bad candidly, fairly avowed that the Revenue was under great embarrassments, which it would be the duty of the Government firmly to meet.—( Hear, hear.) Then as to precedent. The Right Hon. Gentleman bad stated that Lord Ripon had furnis ned the accounts he asked for. But in Lord Ripon's time it should be recollected that the financial year com menced in January, not April, as at present..—( Hear.) Then as to Lord Spencer having granted these accounts, they had never before inen granted. on compulsion—never on the pressure of an Opposition, but voluntarily—on the Minister's own opinion, under the peculiar circumstances of the times, that these accounts should be furnished. Lord Spencer had furnished them in 1831. Bra that course, in 1831, did not pass without censure, and Gentlemen opposite at that time said that it was attended with inconvenience. —( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had last of all connected his (Mr. Baring's) name with a pro ceeding which took place last yea-. The Right Hon. Gentle man said that the motion of Lord Ashburton for returns last year was founded on the same principle on which he (Mr. Herries) now asked for the information in question. But, in point of fact, the ca e was very different. It was after the financial statement had been made, his (Mr. Baring's) Noble Relative said, " Let me have *the papers to enable me to fout.d a statement upon them. Let me have, for the purpose of re ference in this House, the information which is already in the possession of the public." But there could be no comparison between that course and the present demand for a statement before the financial year had terminated. It was truly futile to say that the two cases were alike.—( Hear, hear.) Such a statement had never been made in that House. It had never been asked for by any Opposition, and, sure he was, that such information as the Right lion. Gentleman now asked for, he himself had never granted.—( Hear.) He (Mr. Baring) had always understood it to be the doctrine of the Exchequer, that the case of a nation was different from that of an individual— that it was the duty of an individual to look to what was the amount of his income, and then to regulate his expenditure ac cording to that amount—but that the case of a nation was quite different,—( Hear, hear, hear, and a laugh.) He was glad the Right Hon. Gentleman hid recognised his own doctrine.— ( A laugh.) A nation, as he had understood, was bound in the Arst idace to look to the necessities of its public service, and then to the mode in which the deficiency of its income might be made up. Before the conclusion of the financial year the Right Hon, Gentleman asked for an account of the income. When the Right Hon, Gentleman was in office he said that the nspeasary expenditure should first be looked to. But now he asked for the amount of the income first. At the period when Lord Spencer made an early financial' statement, 'that Noble Lord admitted that it was very difficult to make any estimate upon which the country could rely. But if it was difficult to Gake it then, was it not mach more so now? The Right Hon. entleman spoke a cemeeercial difficulty—but he would ask had that difficulty Rassecl awe y? That depended on what the preispapts of trade might be, and it was upon tleise prospects, and epon the opening of the spring trad.;,, and the results of that trade, the Minister of Finance must calculate the revenue of those main branches the Customs and Excise.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the other' subject, which the Right Ign t Cientlemariliad made his butt, a sense of duty compelled him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to resist the allure ments of the Rlght Host. Gentleman to go into a discussion, from which that might be gleaned in argument which he declined to give as formal information.—( Cheers from the Opposition. ) That j±ll¢ap PlanitillOtml him that it was not without such an intention the lure was held out.—( A laugh.) The Right Hon. Gentleman thought that if he could not coerce the Government to give him in the returns all the premature information which he wanted, the new Chancellor of the Exchequer might be se duced inte the eeremunioation.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh. ) He would not expose himself to the danger into which it was intended to entrap him, and therefore he would not go into a discussion of the sabject. He knew that he would be subject to nurnerons attacks for this course a indeed, he saw by the smiles of Gentlemen opposite that numerous attacks were in preparation. But he would endure them all, so long as he was satisfied- that he did his duty. He had not any returns by which a calculation could be made as to what the proceeds of the Post-offiee might be. In conformity with the pie 'ge which he had given, he would give all the returns, which would enable the House to judge how far the charge of systematic evasion, which had been made against the, Government, could be sus tained. The course which he pursued in the introduction of the reduced postage was adopted because he thought it his duty to enable Parliament to judge of that system by having a suffi cient experience hefcre he made his financial statement. He felt it his duty that they should have the experience of at least some months.—(Hear, hear, hear.) There were plenty of reasons why he could have postponed the introduction of the low rate. He admitted that these were strong reasons. He felt that he was bringing about the introduction in an imperfect state, and without the necessary preparations for the conve nience of the public at large. But lie felt it his duty not to evade the question, and that the House when it came to deal with the finances of the year should have the experiment be fore it, in order that it might judge of the success of the system.—( Hear, hear.) The course which the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite pursued had never before been taken, it was contrary to the principle on which the income and expendi ture ought to be canvassed, and it was inconsistent with the present state of commercial affairs. It wasimpossible for any man to come at present to any fixed and fair estimate of what the income and expenditure might be. He did not know in what way the estimate could be formed. The Chancellor of the Ex chequer did not come down to state a mere statistical case, but such grounds and calculations as the House might fairly go upon. He did not know in what way t h e House or the coun try could rely upon any such estimates as were now for the first time required. The Right Hon. Gentlemen (Mr. Herries) had alluded to the debt of the country, and had taken credit to the Government of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) for their reductions; he admitted that it had been in their power to make reductions in the charge of the National Debt. These reductions were made partly from the surplus of Revenue, and partly by conversion of permanent annuities. He did not mean to throw any blame upon the Right Hon ourable Gentleman who effected that conversion, but he called upon the House to consider what the effect of the alteration was upon the Governments which fol lowed. On the sth of January 1831 the whole of the funded debt was 757,486,0001. On the sth of January 1839 the amount was 761,347,0001., being an increase in the capital of the funded debt of 3,861,0001.; and in the unfunded debt, on the other hand, the amount, in 1831, was 27,271,000!., and in 1839, 24,655,0001., being a decrease of 2,616,0001., taking both the funded and the unfunded debt together. There was a total increase in the capital of the whole debt of the country of 1,244,000/., or of 2,244,0001., if he added to it the other million to which allusion had been made. Such was the state of the debt in the hands of Whig Governments but they had circumstances to deal with which the other Governments be fore them had not. There was the addition of 20,000,000/. to the public debt, not by any . financial mismanagement, but for the purpose of conferring freedom upon their fel low-subjects.—( Loud cheers.) When the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Herries) told him that he must take upon himself all the financial arrangements of his Whig predecessors, he hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would be prepared for the reciprocity, and that he would take upon himself to account for the national debt.—( Hear, hear, and laughter. ) But if he were to take blame for the additions which they had made to the debt, he had rather take the blame upon him when the in crease had taken place for such a purpose.—(Cheers.) He would be more content to take that blame upon him than to have any credit which the refusal of the 20,000,0001. grant - might have gained for him.—(Cheers.) But if credit were given for that increase, then instead of an addition of 2,000,000/. by mismanagement, the Whigs would have reduced the debt by 18,000,000/. To hear the statement of the Right Hon. Gen tleman it would be supposed that a large addition to the debt had been made by Lord Monteagle. But what was the case ? In 1836, the funded debt was 753,550,000/. In 1840, it was 766,547,000/., being an increase of 7,997,000/. But sea what was the state of the Unfunded Debt in this period, in which the reduction of that portion of the Debt was strongly pressed upon the Government. On sth Jan. 1837, the amount of the unfunded debt was 29,954,000/., while in Jan. 1840, including the one million to which he had before adverted, it was 21,688,0001., being a decrease of 8,246,0001., and if the decrease was placed with the increase, it would be found that upon the whole ac count there was a small diminution in khe amount of the two capitals. So far, therefore, from his Noble Friend the late Chancellor of the Exchequer having increased, he had dimi nished the capital of the Unfunded Debt, always observing, that during the time his Noble Friend was in office, that upon 30,000,000/. of Exchequer bills he had made a reduction of eight millions. He would now shortly advert to the expendi ture of the country, as from all sides of the House on this sub ject the Government were subject to attacks. He must admit that he had no complaint to make on th s subject against the Right lion. Gentleman opposite—(Hear, hear)---but as others might make complaints which the Right Hon. Gentleman had done, he considere.t it necessary to refer shortly to some por tion of the expenditure of the country. He found for three years previous to 1830 the grants for the army, ordnance, and miscellaneous service averaged about 17,350,0001., and that was during the three years of an Administration which cer tainly was far more noted for economy than any previous one that Lad come from the other side of the House.—(Hear, hear.) The average for a similar grant during nine years of the late Government was 15,461,0001., so that there was a considerable reduction in those years from the amount i n the years to which he had referred. During the last year, of which the Right Hon. Gentleman had said so much, including the additional million on account of Canada, the amount for those grants was 17,219,0001., which was considerably below the average of the three years of the Government of the Right Hon. Gentleman.—( Hear, hear.) Then with respect to the collection of the revenue there was a similar reduction. During the time the Right Hon. Gentleman was in office that expense amounted to 4,875,000/., while at. the close of 1839 it was 4,042,0001., being a reduction of 833,0001. upon a sum under 5,000,0001.—( Hear, hear.) There was but one point more to which it was necessary to advert, and upon that he was bound to say he had been considerably relieved from speaking upon, in consequence of the statements that had been made by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He alluded :to to the prospects and state of the country. Now with re spect to that subject the Right Honourable Gentleman stated that he considered the pressure but temporary, and in that observation he (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) most entirely concurred.—( Hear. ) He looked upon the prosperity of the country with a most sanguine ex pectation that the difficulty was only temporary—( Hear, hear) —and as a proof of that he need only advert to the pro duce of the revenue from 1830 to 1839. In 1830 the pro duce of the Customs and Excise was 36,184,0001., while in_ 1839 it amounted to 35,200,000/. The total revenue of the country in 1830 was 50,000,0001., including everything, while in 1839 it was 47,7440001., but then there was to be taken into the account the vast amount of the reduction of taxation that had taken place during that time—(Hear, hear)—and when he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) found the revenue kept up so remarkably, with a reduction in the taxation of the country to the amount of between six and seven millions, he could xot but consider that the pres sure at the present moment was but temporary. But that was not all, for it must be recollected that although a reduc tion of taxation had taken place to the extent of 6,000,0001., yet the public had had to pay, and had been able to pay, the interest on the lean of 20,000,0001.--( Hear, hear.) After that tmhieg hpthr prosperity si have thought on f it e xt r y s i H b l eh e for aard bhe e e l ernn. ) h r u s er o ne n dw t mi o t ho s r a e y th at the respectttaant wh p ea s e c n d d . pn — nt to the Post-office question, he thought it was hardly necessary to fight over again the battle upon the propriety or impropriety of the reduction that had taken place. When that measure was brought forward it was never concealed from the House or the public that it was not an ordinary revenue transac tion, it was stated that important and great grounds alone jus tified it—that it was not a mere question of revenue, but it was admitted that it would, on all hands, be a great blessing to the public, not only in a commercial, but a literary and social point of view.—(Hear , hear. ) It had also proved a source of great benefit to the clergy, from whom he had received more thanks for the measure than from any other class of the community. It was admitted that it vas a question of the utmost importance to all. In ad4ition to all this, was there not this most appalling fact, that from one end of the country to the other, in every class and under every circumstance, there was a united conspiracy to cheat the revenue.—( Hear.) Was it not, therefore, a subject well worthy the consideration of the House, when it was calculated to give such great blessings to so vast a portion of the com munity, and to put an end to that cheating the revenue which took place ?-- ( Hear, hear.) Much had been said about the resolutions on this subject, which had been proposed by his Noble Friend. He considered he was perfectly justified in introducing those resolutions, and that he was entitled to the thanks of the community for doing so. He admitted that the words of the resolution, or the Act of Parliament, intro duced no new duty for the House Yo perform. The obligation was to furnish for the public service what was necessary to keep faith with the public creditor, and to give t‘i the esta blishments of the country a sufficient force to keep up its honour, and beyond that it was not the duty of Parliament to go. But if it should turn out that the House was so lost to all sense of good feeling that they would allow the public ser vants to starve, and if they were willing to break faith with the public creditor, then he admitted with the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, that the pledge of his Noble Friend was so much waste paper._( Hear, hear.) But he had better expectations. However unpopular the task was, still, as long as he held the office he had now the honour to fill, he would never be found shrinking from his duty, however un popular it might be, in calling upon the House to do its duty to the servants of the public.—( Hear, hear. ) Mr. GOULBURN said, that his Right Hon. Friend who had opened the present debate had so fully stated the circum stances upon which his motion rested, and the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had offered so little to the attention of the House, that he felt it difficult to do more than reply to the two topics which he had introduced, and whick he thought was an answer to the motion of his Right Hon. Friend.— ( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had told them, in high-sounding language, of the necessity of keeping up an equality in the revenue and expenditure, and also of upholding the public servants. That was a principle that he had always endeavoured to press upon the Government, and he rejoiced to find the Right Hon. Gentleman op.posite, at the commence ment of his career, stating that he was prepared to act upon a principle that everybody newt approve. The carry ing out of that principle did not depend upon the House alone.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Government ought to act manfully in support of them, and if they did, there could bo no doubt that they would be upheld ; but if a Govern ment was found pursuing a very different course, the House would not only have to act up to their own. sense of duty, but they would have to fight against the Govermnent. The late Chan cellor of the Exchequer had made professions corresponding exactly with those made by the Right Hon. Gentleman that night. He had told them that it was essentially necessary to avoid a deficiency in the revenue, that it was necessary to main tain the public servants, and that when there was only a limited surplus, the reduction of taxation was out of the question. Yet, before he left office he had abandoned every principle that he first set out with, for he consented to repeal taxes, and left the finance in that state, that the present Government itself had thought it necessary that some new taxes should be imposed. Now, what had that Noble Lord, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, stated? Why, in August 1835, the usual period when he chose to favour the House with his financial statement—( Hear, hear)—that Noble Lord said this, " Let the House not assume that it will be competent to me to propose any remission of taxation. Would to God that it was, for there was no part of the duty of a Chancellor of the Exchequer more pleasing than to propose the remission of an unpopular tax." But, then, with respect to the reduction of taxation, he said, that without a bona fide surplus it was im possible. Such were the declarations of Lord Alonteagle in the years 1835, 1836, 1837, and 1838, and yet in 1839, in the face of a deficiency in the revenue of upwards of 4,000,0001. sterling, he had come down to the House, proposed, and carried a measure that did away with a source of revenue to the extent of upwards of a million pounds.—(Hear, hear, hear. ) He was completely at a loss to understand the grounds on which the Right Hon. "Gentleman resisted the motion of his Hon. Friend. He had taunted th -se with whom he (Mr. Goulburn) acted with having abandoned the principle on which they had always hitherto proceeded. He denied that they had abandoned any principle—all that was moved for was an estimate of the produce of the Consolidated Fund.—( Hear, hear.) There was a great deficiency of revenue, and they wished to know how far that fund was adequate to provide a certain stirplu! towards the remaining expenditure of the year.—( Hear, hear. ) One circumstance alone that had occurred gave them a right to hare the estimate. Lord Monteagle, when Chancellor of the Exchequer, had been asked how he meant to provide for the interest of the loan of 4,000,0001. of Exchequer bills, and his answer was, that he had a BPI for regulating the Bank of Ireland, which, when passed into a law, would give him 85,000/. a year, and that that would pay the interest of the loan. Had the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite forgotten that that Bill, like oilier measures of the Government, was abandoned?—(Cheers and laughter.) Then it had been said that there was`no precedent for the course adopted by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Herries), and on that ground was the motion resisted. Why, in 1803 an account was moved for of the computed interest resulting to the Consolidated Fund, from the alteration of the Customs. And in 1823 a motion was made that there be laid before the House an estimate of the probable future increase in the Consolidated Fund.— ( Ilear, hear.) Precedents were, therefore, in his (Mr. G.'s) favour; and the House had now the extraordinary circum stance of a motion being made under circumstances which of all others required that the Home should have a knowledge of the state of the Consolidated Fund, and of a Government re sisting it on the ground that no precedent could be found in its support.—( Cheers.) Precedent had little to do with the question. The question for the House to deci 'e was this, was it reasonable and consistent with the discharge of their duty to their constituents, that they should have, early in the Session, a general estimate of the produce bf the Consolidated Fund, with a view to make up their minds as to the present state of the resources of the country, and the degree of energy they would have hereafter to apply to the subject, in order to place the finahcial affairs in a proper state.-_( Elear, hear. ) The lion. Gentleman had stated that they were not to expect the Budget for some months, and therefore they were to wait for months without knowing the state of the resource= of the country.—( Hear, hear.) They were in a situation which, to use an expression of a Noble Lord at the head of the Treasury, was " extremely disagreeable"—(Laughterl—which meant, he thought, when translated into terms less polished, of extreme difficulty . and danger.—( Hear, hear, hear.) If that were the position in which they were placed, was it not advisable, he ., would ask, to let the House and the country know exare,yHe, the prospects they might look forward to?—(Hear, hear, y like his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth)enter tained nu serious fears as to the resources of the country and their capability to meet every difficulty in which they might be placed ; but the Government ought not to refuse to lay before them, at the earliest possible period, the exact posture of that important branch of their financial affairs which the income of the Consolidated Fund created. It was not at all satisfactory to his (Mr. Goulburn's) mind, when he contemplated the future in terests of the country, to find that during four years of con tinued peace, from 1835 to 1839, no progress had been made in the reduction of the debt of the country, but that on the contrary, there had been an increase in the annual charge of that debt, which amounted nearly to one million of money.— ( Hear, hear, hear.) The 20,000,000 i. compensation to slave owners, and the expenses of putting down the insurrection in Canada, had been alluded to, and it had been asked what would the Duke of Wellington have done if he had had to raise 20,000,000/. ? His (Mr. Goelburres) answer to that was, look at the revenue during that Noble Duke's administration. In 1828, the debt was 777,000,000/. ; in 1831, 757,000,000/. ; so that there was a reduction of the debt in three years of peace equivalent to 20,003,000/. and if he had to raise the money for the slave compeusatisn, he would have done it without adding a 6d. to the debt of the country, because he would have taken care to maintain the sacred principle of reducing, during times of prosperity and peace, the permanent debt of the country, in order to prepare himself for exigencies. The Duke of Wellington had reduced 1,000,000/. of the annual charge, and left the financial affairs of this country in a state that he would not be ashamed to com pare with the succeeding administration, or any other ad ministration. In 1835, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer felt himself compelled to say that the reductions made by the Duke of Wellington had been carried so far, that it rendered it nearly impossible for succeeding administrations to carry them any further. Neither he nor his friends had ever ienied that a great reduction in the postage would prove a great boon to the country. What they said was, " Don't abrogate one large and productive tax, without providing for the deficiency." They called upon the Government to propose some other merns for keeping up the Revenue. Let them not rely upon a mere pledge in the preamble of an Act of Parliament. They did not meet the evil fairly; but in order to gain that little popularity —(Hear, hear)—attendant on the passing of that measure, they c-nsented to place the finances of the country in a state thrt must render new taxes absolutely necessary--( Hear, hear.) He contended that the country would look upon the refusal of the information asked for by the motion of his Right Hon. Friend, as an anxiety to conceal' the state of affairs—a desire upon the part of the Government to conceal from view their own miserable mismanagement of the finances of the country—( Cheers.) Mr. HUME was anxious to say a few words upon the ques tion before the House went to a division. The accounts asked fir would not give a clear view of the state of the finances, for they would not have any account of the capital of the Debt, for the accounts asked for would not show what had been lost by the conversion of the Three per Cents into terminable Annuities. There had been deficiencies in 1837, 1838, and 1839. Would any man say that there would be a surplus upon that year ?—(Hear.) Was it to be aupposed that with our present relations with China, and with the Irish people nearly giving up drinking whiskv—( A laugh)—was there a chance of keeping up the revenuj? He calculated that upon that head alone there would be a deficiency of half a million. The great experiment in the Post-office was a noble one, and even if the whole revenue derived from it were lost, it would be still a blessing to the country. Still from all these heads of revenue there must be a deficiency. Why then not look the evil in the face ? They must come to a reckoning some day— why not meet it at once ? He gave the Government credit for not being hurraed on to extravagance by the Gentlemen on the other side. Was there one of them, or of their party, who did not call for increased establishments ? When did they ever call for economy ? Mr. GOULBURN—Yes, we saved 20,000/, the other day. —( Laughter.) Mr. HUME—Yes, but they did not vote for his motion for 21,000/., though he would rather vote for 30,000/. than 50,0001. any day, though upon principle he would have liked the smaller sum. He for one had always seen, when a Chan cellor of the Exchequer had plenty of money, he was very extravagant—(Laughter)—he, therefore, was never sorry when the finances wet e in a slightly deranged state. Let them redu:m their extravagant expenditure, and he feared not for the resources of the country.—(Cheers.) He had always contended, and the result had shown that he was right, that where taxes to the amount of one million were taken off the decrease in the revenue had not been 200,0001., if even so much. That was why he had been an advocate for the reduction of taxation, because the revenue was little, if at all affected, while the comforts of the people were materially in creased. It was impossible to come to any satisfactory conclu sion from the returns the Right Hon. Gentleman had moved for, but he had also a right to complain that the Right Hon. Gen tleman had taken out of his hands a subject which he had for twenty }ears been fighting for and claiming the merit of it as i it were his own.—( A laugh.) There was some novelty in the affair, however, because when the Right Hdn. Gentleman and his friends wore in power, the course was to ask for a vote of the House, for as much as was deemed consistout with this honour and glory of the country, and then to provide the means subsequently.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Hume) had always resisted that system ; he had always advocated the principle of when the estimates were brought forward, stating the round numbers, what was the probable demand, and what were the mea"s by which that sum was to be provided ?—( Hear, hear. ) He must say, however, that he was surprised at thekCl;ancellor of the Exchequer resisting the present motion. There was nothing extraordinary in it, and if the Right Hon. Gent. only sent for the heads of the Customs, the Excise, the Stamps, and the other departments, giving them a few days' notice, they would be able to tell him the probable estimate for the next six, nine, or twelve months.—( Cheers.) Why if the Right Hon. Gentleman wished it he (Mr. Hume) would make the estimate himself.—(Hear and a laugh.) It would be only necessary to consider in which of the main heads there was likely to be any deficiency as compared with other years, and the thing was done.—( Hear.) He did not see why objection should be made on the ground of its being a factious question. If it were so, the best means to defeat it would be to meet it at once.—(Cheers.) Why should they not have the estimates printed as they formerly were ? Every Member could then see the accounts, and make himself master of the details with out wasting the time of the House in useless questions. The information now sought for was reasonable and ought not to be refused.—( Hear, hear.) He must say that his (Mr. Hume's) apolication for similar papers had been more frequently refused by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite than by the present Go vern:lent. Perhaps he had not pressed the latter so much.—( A laugh. ) He admitted it.—( Renewed laughter.) Something might be set down to his confidence in them, and there was the hope of their improving every year, and his not liking to do what would be particularly disagreeable.—( Renewed laughter. ) He certainly had not been so attentive to his duty in that re spect since he had sat on his present side of the House.—(lro nical cheers.) If the present motion went to a division he should certainly support it.—( Cheers. ) Mr. LABOUCHERE was perfectly willing to rest his case upon the statement of his Right Hon. Friend. The question the House had to decide was a plain and simple one, and he was the more anxious to recal their attention to it because the earlier speeches of the evening were not made to an auditory quite so numerous as those who appeared to have come down prepared to vote in favour of the motion.— ( Hear, hear.) (The Right Hon. Gentleman alluded to the Opposition Benches, which within the last half-hour had become densely thronged, while the Ministe:ial Benches re mained comparatively empty.) The question was whether the House wo ild impose upon his Right Hon. Friend con ditions as to the management of tha financial affairs of the country such as had never been imposed upon any of his predecessors.—( Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding the precedents which had been quoted by the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo site, if the House consented to grant that part of the return objected to by his Right Hon. Friend, they would adopt to wards him a course such as no House of Commons had ever before sanctioned. —(Cheers.) There certainly had been oc casions when returns like the present had been granted by the Chancellor of. the Exchequer, but the difference in both the cases which had been quoted to the present was, that in both these cases the Government had been a consenting party. His Right Hon. Friend had admitted that there were difficulties in the financial state of the country, and that he was prepared to meet these difficulties in the face; but whatever they were, they would be materially increased if the House consented to the present motion. In the case of Lord Ripon and the Earl Spencer, the financial budget was not before the House, but the repeal of certain taxes had been proposed, and, he be lieved, assented to, so that, in both these cases, the Chancellor of the Exchequer felt himself in a condition to take so general a review of the finances of the counts y as to propose a reduction of taxation. He asked the House whether any ground had been stated why the House should adopt so novel and unprece dented course as to call upon his Right Hon. Friend who ht,d so lately assumed the management of the financial affairs of the country, to force him to agree to the motion ? There was no great difference on either side with regard to the finances of the country. These difficulties were generally admitted, although the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, as well as his Right Hon. Friend, were agreed that there was nothing in it calculated to excite any feeling of despondency, or even of alarm. At the same time, it should be observed that the deficiency had been accumulating for several years. The Government were pre pared to look their difficulties fairly in the face, but if they had endeavoured to conceal from the country the real state of their finances, there would have been some ground for the present motion.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gen meman opposite had admitted that the Prime Minister of the country, aad his Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies, who led the Government in that House, had themselves volunteered to state that theyconsidered the condition s.f the country deserving of the serious consideration of Parlia ment. Under these circumstances he did not really see what the Right Hon. Gentleman rested his case upon. There was only one part of the return to which his Right Hon. Friend objected, and he could not therefore complain of a want of in formation. He should certainly oppose that part of the motion, because he thought it unfair, unnecessary, and wholly unprece dented.—( Cheers. ) Sir G. CLERK contended that no answer had been given to the statements of his two Right Hon. Friends on that side of the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman who had last ad dressed the House had stated that Honourable Members had come down prepared to vote for the motion but he would appeal to those who had had the benefit of hear • ing the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech whether they could re collect one single reason which he had urged why they should be refused the production of these papers. If there had been no precedents at all for the present motion, surely the circum stances of the country, in regard to its finances, were so UR preeedented as to justify a departure from the ordinary course of proceeding. On the 25th of February, 1824, three weeks after the meeting of Parliament, Lord Ripon being then Chan cellor of the Exchequer stated, that in conformity with the course he had adopted last year, he would take the earliest op portunity of opening to the House his views of the present si tuation and future prospects of the finances of the country.. dere ' If at the time of Lord Ripon it was not found difficult to so,- emit to the House an estimate of the probable income of country hrsl ,nervation d e during the year, what reason had the peesent not withholding it. He had not stated any , t, t e ime ,. and . the present, behuatngheed. sai S d ure th ly e w: n e h:e n m n e m i t a h e i of n nnancial year was ,: c h e an i n c e t l h l i o e r e f i o r- r cumstances of the country between tlo.: was done, it was not contemplated that it would be mde incl e c i e rc ul u P mstances of the country, till a pretext for not giving to the House a statement of the the year ? The Chancellor of the Exchequer a speech of Lord Melbourne's, when, in answer to an (pericodd made, he stated, but not voluntarily, that we were in a state of great financial difficulty and embarrassment. The Noble Lord also, at the conclusion of a long debate, adverted to the difficulties in which the finances were placed, and the necessity the Government felt themselves in of calling on the House for additional means of carrying on the Government. But how did he make that speech at the close of that debate? When he felt secure of 308 gentlemen who were sitting behind him. But what was the nature of their vote of confidence in the Government, when they were not disposod to enable them to meet the expenses of the country, and he was compelled to throw himself on the pity of those opposed to him, and to tell them surely they would not refuse the means of meeting the exigencies of the country ? The Noble Lord, after heaping all manner of obloquy on the Conservative party, was compelled to apply to them in the manner of the applicant of Shy lock—<, Lend me your monies." The Noble Lord knew well the Members on that side of the House would throw no difficulty in the way of meeting the increased exigencies of the country, and were much more consistent in objecting to the con duct of the Government, from whose misgovernment that increased expense had arisen, yet who were prepared to vote whatever mon ey was required for the service of the country, Bum those who one day vote their confidence in the Government, and the next day proved that they had none by withholding their vote for that supply. Ho agre ed with the Hon. Member for Kilkenny that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, finding himself unable to supply the House with arguments for resisting the production of the estimate, had endea. voured to divert their attention from the subject betbre them by instituting a comparison between the financial operations of the present Government and that of his Right Hon. Friend, after which it was impossible his Right Hon. Friend could avoid giving some answer, and that answer, whatever might be the opinion of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, he thought perfectly satisfactory. When the Hon. Gentleman compared the expenditure of the present Government with that of the Duke of Wellington's in 1828, 1829. and 1830, lie did not give a fair statement of those two Govern. ments, for, during those years, there had been a great diminution of the expenses of the country ; whereas, during the administra tion of Lord Melbourne, it had greatly increased. The House would remember a speech delivered in 1834 by his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke, who stated that the means of seduction were limited to the votes annually passed for the service of the year, which did not amount to 16,000,0001., and, therefore, a reduction of 2,000,0001. was made from that large sum. Now, what was the conduct of the present Government, which succeeded to the estimates framed during the short administration of his Right Hon. Friend ? The expenditure for the service of the year, sth January, 1836, was only 13,800,0001. ; the next year, 14,392,0001.; in 1838,15,000,0001. ; the next year, 16,000,000/. ; and this year it appeared, from papers laid upon the table of the House, that it would amount to no less than 17,493,5451., teing an increase upon those heads of the service, to which alone the estimate referred, of upwards of 3,490,000/. He could not ad mit that that increase was owing to anything done by that side of the House, though they did complain that the bad policy of the Government had rendered .o great an increase necessary ; and who, knowing the necessity which existed, were afraid that their friends would object to vote the necessary supplies, and were therefore afraid to come forward and demand it. They had been told that the naval service was in a most inefficient state, and what was the result ? D u ring the last year an increase wa s ma d e i n t h e ex penditure of the Navy, which, though not more than the service required, would be this year increased by half a million more. —(Hear, hear.) Whets the Hon. Member for Kilkenny charged h em w ith inconsistency for not joining in voting the estimates, he charged him with inconsistency for not joining hem in voting their want of confidence in the Govern. cv ophauaesnrlastedatsdiminution mwt y aii e tpnh a t r et ati o ohr fnee appeared the he e 2aa, D rt2 jol u un2 k s , e ttoh o ciee f oxn: W . trw e ei l dnh l i .ci n lr g eeT t a st of kee ' io s enf a xgt d ph m teohns i eei ment, since they had been told of the profligacy and great expenditure of former Governments as compared with the present ; but he should eall the attention of the House to the state of the was 47,142,0001., and that of the last year was admi nistration, stunotunur expen diture years oaf finance rn n s , lasn a t i 3c s h l ee a c r :o ec m ' 49,557,0001., being an increase of expenditure of 2,214,0001., instead, as in 1830, of a surplus of 3,000,0001., while the present income of the country was insufficient to meet its expendi. tore by a million and a half. After the able statements made by his Hon. Friends as to the impolicy of the Government allowing such a state of the finances, he should not trouble the House any further on that subject ; but he thought it afforded the strongest reason why there should be laid before the House, at the earliest period, a statement of the probable effect of such measures as that which had recently been adopted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 10th of January, and of which he had given no reason :for making that premature change. The only argument used oy the President of the Board of Trade against the produc tion of the estimates was, that it would be attended with public inconvenience. The only reason stated by the Chancel lor of the Exchequer was, that, at this period of the year, he had no means of forming an accurate estimate; but there had heen no attempt to show that its production would be attended with the slightest inconvenience. No doubt its produc tion would not be gratifying to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, though he believed that the finances were better at present than during the last three years, the estimate of last year showing an income of upwards of 46,000,000/. There was, therefore, no rea son for gloomy views of the resources of the country, nor did he think that any evil would result in the commercial or money mar ket if a fair and full statement were given. The Wight Hon. Gen tleman was not called upon to state the nature of the taxes it would be necessary to impose, and he thought that had better be postponed till he knew the result of the great Popt-oflice experiment ; and if the public found, as he believed, that it wou'd have occasioned a diminution of revenue of 1,012,000/., ho thought that diminution had better be raised by fresh taxes, and that they should revert to the old system ; but, of course, the Hon. Gentleman must depend on what was the general feeling of the country. He apologized for troubling the House so long upon the subject ; but he wished them to know that the Government had shown no grounds for withholding the returns desired. Mr. 'TERRIES briefly replied ; when Mr. WARBURTON rose amid loud cries for a division, which rendered him almost inaudible. We understood him to say that in rising, he only accepted a challenge of the last speaker. The esti mate was not produced, because the Government had not the means of making an accurate one. The Right Hon. Gentleman, in the course of his speech, said that he did not require a statement of what the taxes were to be, as that would be premature. Of what value then would the statement be ? Either they should have an accurate statement or an inaccurate one. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that if he were called on to give a statement now, that statement must be necessarily an inaccurate one—therefore he could not un. derstand what was to be gained by the production of this Paper, and he should vote against the motion. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided : Ayes Noes Majority in favour of the motion -10 The announcement of the numbers was received with loud cheers. PORT OF FLEETWOOD. Mr. TOWNLEY PARKER, in,moving for the returns of which he had given notice, did not expect tomcat with any de :ided opposi tion from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Doubtless the Right Hon. Gentleman had heard some exaggerated representations re specting the port of Fleetwood. It had been represented as likely even to rival Liverpool, and therefore it had been said it would be expedient to have a railroad to Fleetwood. The population of Li. verpool was 165,000, that of Fleetwood must be reckoned by units instead of by thousands. Liverpool was within an hour's ride of Manchester ; Fleetwood was at a distance from all manufacturing places. Liverpool had communication by water carriage with an enormous population ; Fleetwood had no such advantage. The town of Preston, indignant at being placed beneath the p'.rt of Fleetwood, had made several remonstrances to the Treasury on the subject, and he had himself presented several memorials. The town of Preston, a few years since, was the superior port. He complained that Fleetwood had been made an independent port, and that Preston, which was a considerable town, had been made a creek under a place of little importance, and which had but a very limited trade. All he wanted was that Preston should be made an independent port, an advantage to which he thought its situation and commerce entitled it. The Hon. Member concluded by moving for a return of the several memorials, representations, and commu nications to and from the Treasury, on which Fleetwood was made an independent bonded port, and the port of Preston made a creek under Fleetwood. Sir H. FLEETWOOD wished to second the motion for the in. troduction of the papers densanded by his Hon. Colleague. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had in formed the Hon. Member that there would be no objection to the returns ; and therefore he was surprised that the Hon. Memb.2r should have made a speech about it. Mr. PARKER said he would be happy to hear any counter statements on the subject. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (warmly)—lf the Hon. Member had given the slightest intimation of his wish to make any statements to the House, ho would have come prepared with counter.statements.—(H(ar, hear.) Motion agreed to. LATE SITTINGS. Mr. BROTHERTON (who was received with a loud burst of merriment) then rose to' move that no new business objected to by five Members, should be taken after twelve o'clock.—(Hear.) He thought this proposition so reasonable as to need no argument in support of it. It would tend to promote the health of the House, and the benefit of the public, to conduct the business of the House within reasonable hours. How could the House, again, expect their proceedings to be reported fully and fairly, when the Reporters were exhausted by sittings to three, four, or five in the morning ? Mr. EWA RT seconded the tnetion. He thought the true eco. no:11y of time was to begin early. And he believed the publ:c busi ness would be much better carried on if it commenced at a more rea sonable time. When the House sat earlier, the speeches were shorter, more pithy, and more to the point. Why should those independent Members, who were able to devote their whole time to the House of Commons, be made subordinate and subservient to the convenience of those who merely made that House supplementary to their legal business, which occupied them during the day ? He was for a complete reform of the evil by early sittings—at all events he would cordially support the present motion, which was a step towards that reform. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he saw no necessity for the motion. —(Hear.) As the rules now stood, debates could be adjourned at the general wish of the House. And he would certainly strongly object to the House so binding itself dawn, that the debate on some question of great national interest, should be liable to be stopped or prevented, by the caprice of any five Members. He did mot think that the House could gain by any arrangement which would exclude merchants and lawyers* from attending to their duties as Members. But with respect to what had been said of official Members, he could only observe that, so far as he was con. cerned, the alteration could not make much difference, as he already devoted to his duties in the House, as much time as te could devote to it under any arrangement. He did not thir: K th a t he had worked this day more than usually, and he employed nearly twelve hours upon those duties.—(Hear,her: . ) Sir ROBERT PEEL did not think it nece s sary to discuss the question Gf morning sittings, as it was not contemplated to intro duce so great a change at present. Yie thought that it would be highly inexpedient to give five A r .embers the power of controlling the decision of the House ; 'and it was impossible to fix upon any hour at which it woull )- -,e too late to bring on nes , . business. That must depend alto,. g ';ther upon circumstances. Sometimes half-past ten o'clock rniP_:.t be too late, and at another time it might be neces sary to hr4:ng on new business at a much later hour. Yet he w w l `!. object to give an express Parliamentary sanction to the ',ringing on of new business at twelve o'clock, or at eleven o'clock. The House had sat to very late hours ever since the beginning of the present Session, but not one instance had occurred in which the 1-I , n. Member for Salford's proposition would apply, so that that measure would have no effect in pr venting late sittings. Mr. BROTHERTON briefly replied, and said that he would eertaiqly divide the House. Accordingly the House divided, when there appeared— For the motion Against it Majority against the motion PRIVILEGE. On our admission to the gallery we found ~145 Sir M. WOOD on his legs stating that he had been informed that to-morrow the writ would be signed and sealed, ordering an inquiry to take place in the action which had been brought in Stockdale and Hansard, for the purpose of assessing the damages. This would place the Sheriffs very probably in another situation of great difficulty ; and what he had therefore to move was, that the Speaker should be directed to order William Prevost and Thomas Chatfield not to sign any writ of inquiry in the cause now pend ing of Stockdale and Hansard, and that Mr. Penlove be directed not to seal the writ. lie understood that the damages were laid at a very large sum—he believed 30,000/. An HoN. MEMBER-50,0001. Sir M. WOOD—An Hon. Member had said 50,000/.; and if the writ of inquiry was issued, the Sheriffs would be placed very probably in a sit u:.tion of great difficulty. Sir ROBERT INGLIS doubted ray much whether the present was such a question of privilege as would entitle it to tike precedence of the other business of the House; and in the next place he considered the motion, if granted, would be an assumption of power on the part of the House, for which there was no precedent. Mr. O'CONNELL was clearly of opinion that the present ques tion was one of privilege, and he felt equally certain that the motion in its present shape could not be granted. He doubted very much the power of the House to say that the writ should not be signed ; but he admitted that it was important, if possible, to prevent pro ceedings in the action. Since Mr. Howard had been imprisoned his business had been conducted by his clerk Mr. Pearce, and he did not see, if the House had the power to imprison Mr. Howard, why it should not have the power also to prevent his clerks from proceeding with the action. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL considered the motion of such importance, that he thought it would have been much better if the Hon. Member had given notice of it. He thought that the motion ought not to be acceded to without further information. His Learned Colleague and himself had considered whether the step now proposed could be taken, but they had not yet made up their minds upen the subject. He would content himself now with moving the previous question. Mr. HUME thought if 'he House wished to protect its privileges that they would stop every individual who attempted to interfere with them. What he submitted was that the House ought to come to a resolution that any one who executed the process of the Court was guilty of a brcach of privilege. After a few observations from Mr. Warburton and Mr. Jones, Mr. KELLY said he could not support the motion of the Hon. Baronet, but he felt it impossible for Hon. Gentlemen on the other other side of the nous', to oppose it consistently with the course which they had hitherto pursued. . . The original question was then put, snd negatived without a division. Mr. BROTITERTON then rose to move that no debate be al lowed upon a motion for adjournment after twelve o'clock, amidst loud cries of " Clock, clock :" and loud laughter,—(ft was then twenty minutes after twelve o'clock.) The Colonial Passages Bill was then read a second time, upon the motion of Mr. V. SMITH.—To be committed on Friday fortnight. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought up the Report of the Committee of Ways and Means, upon the Transfer of Aids Bill, and the Amendments were agreed to. The House then adjourned at Half.past Twelve o'Clock, PUBLIC INCOME AND EXPENDITURE. Accounts ordered, "showing the amount of the Deficiency Bills charged on the growing produce of the Consolidated Fund out. standing, unsatisfied on the 14th day of February, 1839, and the 14th day of February, 1840, respectively :" " Showing the surplus or deficiency of the net Income of the United Kingdom, compared with the Expenditure thereof (exclu. sive of the charge for a fixed Sinking Fund, while such was imposed by Law) in each of the five years preceding the sth day of January, 1831 :—And also each of the five years preceding the sth January, 1840 :" " Showing the total amount of the Funded or Unfunded Debt created, and also, of the Funded or Unfunded Debt extinguished, in each of the three years preceding the sth day of January, 1840 ; distinguishing the Stock created in lieu of Exchequer Bills can celled, being the produce of moneys invested by Savings Banks :" " Of the total amount of the Unfunded Debt outstanding on the sth day of January, sth day of April, sth day of July, and 10th day of October, in each of the years 1837, 1838, and 1839 ; stating the rate of interest on Exchequer Bills issued at or about the same periods; the current rates of premium or discount on the same in the public market; and the prices of the Three per Cent. Consolidated Annuities :" " Of the total net Income and Expenditure of the United King. dom, in each of the twelve years between the sth day of January, 1828, and the sth day of January, 1840 (in continuation of the Account annexed to the Fourth Report of the Committee on Finance, in 1828, wherein the sane is exhibited from the year 1792) :" " Showing the to:al sums expended for the service of the Army, Navy, Ordnance, and Miscellaneous, in each of the twel ve be tween the sth day of January, 182 8, and sth day of January , 1840.' 840 HER MAJESTY'S MARRIAGE. —Bell's Life in London, of Sunday, February the 16th, will contain full and authentic particulars of the Nuptials of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert, illustrated with Engravings of the Interior of St. James's Chapel, the Altar, the Procession from the Palace, and Grand Wedding Banquet, together with Portraits of the Illustrious Couple. Price of Bell's Life, sd. A Saturday Edition, which may be had 200 miles from London on the Sunday.—Office, 170, Strand. Early orders to agents arc advisable. MONEY MARKET and CITY NEWS. (THURSDAY EVENING.) TIM E S.—The hostile position of this country with China has been felt to-day in the English Stock-market. The money price of Consols is quoted at 901, the price for the account 901 to 1,-, and for April 9li to The un funded debt has shared in the depression, and Exchequer bills are at Bs. to 10s. premium. Altogether the market is flit. Money, however, continues in great abundance. An improved quotation from Paris caused a rise in the price of Spanish stock, which having been done at 26i, subsequently advaneed to 271, for the Activeß. Portu guese closed at 34 to 1, and Colombian have remained sta. tionary. Indeed, there has been but little done in any of the Foreign Funds, with the exception of Spanish. The Share-market has been dull ; and though the varia tion of prices has been slight, it has tended towards a de cli, e. Great Western are quoted at * discount to premium ; Brighton at 11 to 101 discount. POST.—The effect of the news received yesterday from China on the value of the public securities has been much more apparent to-day than was the case in the first instance. The quarrel which has unfortunately sprung up on the opium question has been so injudiciously treated by . her Majesty's Superintendent, Captain Elliot, that an ac commodation seems now to be scarcely hoped for by par. tics interested in our commercial intercourse with that dis tant country, and, should the misunderstanding be one of long continuance, of which there is every prospect, the na tional interests must suffer considerably. In truth they aro already doing so to an extent which it would be difficult to estimate. The best is, as usual, hoped for ; but we should very imperfectly convey to the minds of our readers what has come under our personal observation were we to conceal from them the undoubted fact, that a most un favourable result to the pending dispute is very generally anticipated by our leading men of business. The damp thrown upon the markets by the adsices from China was far from being diminished by the American intelligence' brought by the Liverpool packet-ship Sheridan front Nev York, ai everything seems to be again in an unsettled state on the northern frontier. The memorandum of Sir John Harvey, addressed to the borderers, and the late proceed.. ings in the Senate at Washington, have certainly a warlike appearance. Consols left off at 901 to ti for Money, and 90 to for the Account. Exchequer Bills were at es. to 10g. prem., and Bank Stock 178:} to 9. SUN.—The result of the two days' debate at the In dia House is, that the amendment of the Court of Direc tors to the motion of Sir Charles Forbes was carried by a majority of 56 to 26. The amendment of the Chairman was to this effect :—`• That the Court deems it highly inexpedient, and aocordingly declines to inter fere with the Executive in the affairs of Sattara." The Chairman, in proposing this amendment, stated that the dethronement of the Rajah was under the consideratiod of the Court of Directors, who would, as men of honour, as British gentlemen, bound by an oath, do justice to the Rajah. The Hon. Chairman defended the conduct of Sir James Carnac, the Governor of Bombay. There were many of the Directors as well as of the Proprietors who spoke on the question. The Court did not separate till near five o'clock this after noon. We are without any recent Continental or other arrivals this afternoon. The Funds left off extremely flit this afternoon ; Consols for Money at 90i a ; for the Account at 90f to 901 ; India Stock at ; Bank Stock at 178 f. and Exchequer Bills at Si. premium. The sales of stock were rather heavy to-day, especially of Consols. The business in the Foreign Funds was carried on extensively this afternoon. Spanish rallied to 271 ; Portuguese Five per Cents. to 341-; but Colombian and Mexican Bonds fell a shade. The Share Market closed heavily for the Birming ham and Gloucester Shares, also for Great Western, Brighton, Manchester and Leeds, and North Mid• Ilnd Shares. EAST INDIA HOUSE. RAJAH OF SATTARA. proprietors of East India Stock resumed their IP:oeting yesterday upon the case of the Rajah of Sattara. Sir R. Jenkins took the Chair at 12 o'clock. Captain ConaN commenced the discussion by reading a correspondence that had taken place between himself and the Bombay Government, relative to the affairs of Sattara, and the treatment which the Rajah had received. The Honourable and Gallant proprietor then stated that, as va rious calumniations had been circulated respecting him, which he at first treated with contempt he had thought it proper to write a letter, and to send communications to the Under Secretary of State, explanatory of his conduct and the course he had adopted, but the only answer sent to him was that the pdpsr had been received. Being anxious to vindicate his character, he waited on the President of the Board of Control, Sir J. Hobhouse, but instead of being re ceived with that courtesy which was usually observed on occa sions of that sort, the conduct of that Right Hon. Gentleman towards him was bordering on insult.—( Hear, hear.) He was told by the Right Hon. Gentleman that he had joined a party under Sir Charles Forbes to embarrass the Govern ment, and to bring the case into Parliament—that he would not allow the Rajah to sit on the throne of Sattara again-- that he would support the Government of India whether right or wrong, and would stop the turban gentlemen from filling London with their appeals.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") lie bad also asked him (Capt. Cogan) how he dared to give an opinion as to the Rajah's innocence in op position to the Government, and that he had written to the Governor-General to dismiss every man from the service who presumed to give such an opinion.—( Hear, hear, and laught2r.) He (Capt. Cogan) was not fearful of any evil consequences to himself, but he trusted the Court would do its utmost to protect the natives of India —( Hear.) He was not attached to any party, nor did he wish to embar rass the Government of India, or any other Government, but he had thought it his duty not only to himself, but to the Court, to have those sentiments proclaimed in order that they might have the means of checking them in future ) The Chairman said it had been a cause of regret to hint that the Court adjourned at the period it (lit last evening, because he had been unable to have an op portunity, without stopping other gentlemen, who were de serous of giving their opinions, of sa)iug a word on behalf of themselves and the Directors. Ile regretted that the question had been brought before the Court without being in possession of the official information which alone, he must say, could enable him to come to a just and proper decision on tile question. He admitted that the case of the Rajab of Sattara was a distressing one, and he would venture to say of the Government of India, that whatever resolution they had come to in this case, had been adopted w . th extreme reluctance. The case of the Rajah was at this moment under reference to the executive—the Court of Directors— and what grounds were there for supposing that the Court of Directors would not come to a decision on the question with a due sense of its importance, and the most anxious desire to perform those duties which bad been entrusted to them under the obligations of an oath ? He would there fore beg to move as an amendment " That this Court deems it highly inexpedient, and accordingly declines to in terfere with the responsible execution in the affairs .of Sattara." The Deputy- Chairman seconded the Amendment.' A long discussion then ensued, at the conclusion of which the C ourt divided, when there appeared For the Motion Li) For the Amendment 56 Majority for Chairman's Amendment —36 The Amendment then having been put as a substantive motion, Mr. .SOLOMONS moved as an amendment " That the cue eE the Rajah of Sattara be recommended to the attentive consideration of the Court of Directors, and that inch documents connected with his dethronement as shall come before them, be laid before the Court of Proprietors as soon as their decision shall have been come to on the subject." The amendment having been seconded by Major Oli phant, it was put to the Court, but negatived by the same majority. The Court then adjourned at a few minutes after Five o'clock. FATAL STEAM-SHIP COLLISION. •-•-• We stated yesterday that the barque Tyrian, bound for Valparaiso, was run down by the Manchester steamer off Gravesend, and five lives lost. On further inquiry, we find the melancholy statement but too true. It apl ears the barque sailed from the London docks on Tuesday evening with a valuable cargo, part of which was said to be gold dust. She arrived at Gravesend on Wednesday morning, and d roppe d anchor off the north shore, a short distance from Tilbury Fort, where she was to have laid till yesterday, and then to have sailed for her destine tion. The steam-ship Manchester, which is the property of the Leith and Berwick Steam Navigation Company, sailed under the command of Captain Polwart, from the Leith and Berwick Steam-packet Wharf, Lower East Smithfield, at ten o'clock, on Wednesday night, with a large cargo and a few passengers, for Berwick. On arriving at Gravesend about half past one o'clock, she came into collision with the barque Tyrian. The crash was frightful. The Manchester was going at full tpeed, and with the ebb tide. She is supposed to have struck the Tyrian on the larboard bow, and to have entirely stove in her bulwarks, and a portion of her hull, as she filled and sank almost within five minutes after. The crew and passengers, with the exception of the watch,were asleep at the moment of the collision, and they were seen to rush simultaneously on the deck, and make for the rigging ; several, however, were washed overboard. As soon as the Manchester recovered from the shock, every en deavour was used, on the part of the captain and crew, to save the lives of those in the water, and clinging to the riggin g , and they succeeded in saving all except three men and one boy belonging to the crew, and one passenger. Every attention was paid by Captain Polwart to the survivors, and they were conveyed ashore; but the damage sustained by the Manchester being considerable, she laid up off Gravesend for the night. In the course of yesterday her damage was repaired, and in the afternoon she set sail for Berwick. A number of fishermen have been engaged in dragging for the bodies, but none, saveeirc r that of the boy, has been found. Portions of the rigging A„,.. iv masts of the barque are seen above water. , Viscount Villiers, M.P., and the Hon. Fre r .ri W C/2 - rick Villiers left town on Tuesday a f ternoon for Coombe Pei. :V , > '• on a visit to Earl and Countess Craven. A numerous pug about to assemble at that hospitable mansion, ,