The Sun. — London, England, 1817-12-23 00:00:00

I • 'GER:III 7 .i CA l' EI) C'O N VEY A NCERS. V 0 it THE SA . ; N. Ma. totToa,—On seeing \lr. TOlLYN`SLeirtl' -of last Saturday, I bad 'resolved to answer it, which I accordingly did. T he subject was ail easy. one ;—the arguments not difficult 'to be answered. But stil my want of leisure has, I fear, rendered my performance not so complete as a re-perusal iOlye Wade. it. The RS originally folded up; was mislaid till yesterday, when I un derstood an Answer was'to be given to Mr.TAiq Ll' N. of course delayed sending the inclosed till I read that: ',meting, however, that it does riot take up the subject to the extent which I have done, Ithink it will not be very much amiss to lay these remarks before the Public. It will tend to the., deveiopement of truth, whichever party succeeds ; and I am free to acknowledge myself ready to be convinced of my errors, by arguments (but they must be stronger than Mr. TRULY N'S), it I can not succeed' in offering an answer to them. As the question is of high importance, the Public must feel themselves greatly indebted to you for 113 full and free discussion, and I hope that the vlairus of each party will be advanced coolly and moderately ; that our passions may not be roused, but that our judgments may impartially decide on the weigbt of evidence adduced against us. A STUDENT OF LINCOLN'S INN. Dec. 20, 1817. !TO MR. T, I LYN, STR,-*As your letter which appeared on Sator day last (Dec. 13), addressed to the LORD CHAN ceetoa, will, 1 am convinced, remain unanswered by his Lordship, I take the liberty/of urging in reply to it such arguments as would, in my lueoble opinion, be conelusive apinst you. You observe, that the question should he considered, Ist, As between Conveyancers and the Public, and 2d, Betw een Conveyancers and Attornies (and, you might have added,-Barristers)., lo your o wn method, then, I will take up the point though first I should premise how the law on the s'abject at present stands. Any man, w hetbet allopman, broker, tradesman, or bankitoit mer chnot, ignorant or well informed, may ou - one day enter himself at one of the lan; of Court, and take out a Cohvevancers certificate, and the next clay lie may practise as a Conveyancer. This is done at an expellee of al, out 33/ as the ad mission fee, and 1 21. per annum for his certificate at the Stamp-office. Hating got illough these (lit - Bei-416es . (by no means trifliog to the generality of these aspirieg geniuses), he is" eshered jet() a ll th e m ystssies of his profe s sion, dohs himself E,q., looks big, and talks still more roundly of passing estates. Illslihraly consists of those in . valuable books, " Mr. Baritso'S eeedents," kind " The Au(); uey's Pocker-book." Now, Sir, the evils resulting to the PrOrlic are, that when igno rant men are taliployefl to plepare COt veyances, they not uolrequently assign a very different pro perty from that which one of the part iesintended; and thin gives rise to endless Idigations. Inun tnerabte instances may be adduced to skew tha't the greatest mischief nray result to the coartuu y, from property being vested-for some years iu time hands of one set of • men, and a t l as t wrested from them by the decision of a Court of Justice ; ssr {torn individuals being educated limier the impression of inheriting a fortune, which. after a tew years is found to belong to another. — The evil you will readily admit ; but yon will per haps say, Attornies are very ignorant of coovey ancine ; and therefore the instanets . alluded to would be more like:y to happen amongst them'. — The great portion. of Attornies, let it be remem bered, are Conveyancers. If they have served tlieir clerkships in the country, they have attended to hardly any thing but conveyancing ; and it has been osual for many of them, even after their clerkship, to ,spend a year under some man, of eminence in that branch of his pr o fession. I n London too, clerks have a great opportunity of studying it, as well as the practice of the Courts. It is the most generally understood of any of the departments of legal knowledge. At all events, it is mot e•prohable that an Attorney who has paid great atten ion to it during a five years' clerkship should draW.a deed skilfully, than that one . (who seeing,the profits which he may immediately de rive from it, is tempted to embark in it with little or no peepiration) should knoW much of the sub . elect. It cannot be gained in a day. The study of it involves not only a knowledge of the old fedal principles, but the long continued series of judicial decisions relative to it. The greatest nicety exists here ; a. slight mistake • will some times reqoire the lapse of many years, arid the expenditure of several hundred pounds, 'ere , it can be rectified. You will say, no upright man vvould praceise it, till he was in some measure qualified. If this be the feeling of Conveyancers in general, svhAt objection can they have, 'whilst they are gaining this requisite inforinatioo, to keep their terms and proceed regularly to the Bar, or to serve under articles to an Attorney ? 'I his AVCitlld not fall heavily on these honest men; it would only stand in the way of knaves. Let them be . clever as they will, five years is hardly enough time to let them understand it as they ought. But what pretensions have these men to this extraor dinary superiority over the generality of Students for the Bar, ler Clerks under Articles. Ate the , latter so grossly ign'oiabt ?or the former so cull trendy well informed ? Do none but such men be come Conveyancers ? If they had received an education, why were they not educated at . the time for some profession You think your case ' strengthened by the nantes of a BUTLER, a FEARNE, and an HARGRAVE. But I fear we should Dot have many such men when the knowledge of .the practical part of Conveyancing might be so readily acquired, and so amply and early reward; .*-eel. I will not consider, the, claims of Barristers. Foc it is evident, that if they were to neglect (he study of the principles of Conveyancing, our .1 11g*?..1 ivotilielrAy P.ll 11%Nr c e stihject tv,bich woilld be Avist And e,eroi!s to the inreresrs of the eittutottul—y. Well they--bestow - years on - acquiring a kneWl . c - dge of the prineiples, when they htrii 'others : Wmlt Weir way to fortunes more easily by A slight -ac quaint ii - oce with the pratctiee Nicu, veto tints are ushered without trouble and would expente into so lucrative a profession , be able to rend their ‘` Kidderminster stuff" considerably lower lhan their brother therchants, whose g oods were of a more excellent gnalfty. Conveyancing is the most lucrative branch of the profession. Any Attorney would give up all his 'other business for a reasonoble share of this. it is not therefore A right that those who have paid a large stainp duty, a high premium, and have undergone a long and labo'sious education, should have the wheat sifted out for others, and have the chaff only for them selves. Which is the most respectable Body ? At tornitsor certificated Conveyancers? Which the most numerous ? It is btu just, therefore., that their pri vilegess honk! be defended. Btu the Legislature have no right to interfere 1 . It is impertinent and op pressive in them to dictate to the Public, whom they ought to employ, and to prevent people front working at any busine3S they may choose ! For this position the name of PALEY is introduced : as men go to the Bible often to sanction their crimes. Do not Laws restrain men from practising as Surgeons or Apothecaries withom a previous edu cation, and without undergoing an examination ? Nor can a matt, generally speakitw, be ordained, illN!ss he has received an university ,etiocation. Thus evolves are in other professions kept from breaking into the sheep folds. Men are not pre vented front I(.11ti wing any trade, for they re quire a capital,. and the havito: this capital is a sufficient qualification ; a few weeks will teach the minute and few particulars. As to the Pub lic, 1 imagine they will feel very easy finder the hardship. They are not so particularly bond of employing improper persons; or if. they slaroild he, a clause might he inserted, authorizing ev, , y Gentleman to employ his own -enlet or butler, and the poorer people flight still go to the parish clerk. Before, Sir, you again ondertake to dic tate to Parliament, let tne recommend you to seek a little mote extensive knowledge o f polities that' what a mere acquaintance wi h the fiscal part of onr affaits is likely to afford, and never suppose that you can lessen e the effects of a too sudden transition from war to peace, ;and the, consequent loss of employment to so many, by ea ki og down the bulwarks of two honourable professions, and by destroying; the know lutl ; „ , ,e and integrity by which they are so happily cha racterized. S. S. FOlt THE SUN. • ~~.d..: Mn. %DlTOll,—.l in►' a Certificated Conveyancer, and think your Correspondent, an Cold Barrister, bears a little too hard upon me and my biethren iti the TzApz. I was brought up a Tullow-cliandler, but being obliged to avail myself of a Commission, " thebest in his Majesty's gift," I turned Conveyancer, told qualified myself for the trade by reading. An Attorney lodged in my house, and alt he left . me for a year's rent was a box full of parchments one wi‘ts a lease, another a mortgage, and. ono . - ther an assignment, with a little volume, called " The Attorney's Pocket-Book :" with these was soon able to spin out a deed, as well as before I could dip a line of cotton in a vat of milted tal low ; and why not ? Does the carrying on one trade prevent a man from knowing another ? It is true I was no pupil to a Conveyancer, because my lodger once told me' the fee to such a person was so much money thrown away, and for nothing more than for copying hii old precedents, while he was too much engaged in business to be of any other use. Indeed, Sir, the most eminent of Conveyancers are little more than precedent men. They have pigeon-holes for covenants, and pro visoes, beside manuscript forms of deeds of every kind, one whereof, if out of the common way, serves for all ; but these Gentlemen make no complaint of us—it is the Attornies only. They charge such Conveyancers as I am with incompe tence, forgetting their own ; as when we feel it, we alike go to Counsel learned in the Law for help. We are all equal in common matters, and are food for the Law, though the Old Barrister will not own it. Why in the name of the Lord—. Chancellor, does he fall foul of Mr. TpdLYISI, who acts fairly in the trade? Why give a man a dowse in the chops who carries it on 200 miles ofi?— Why does M. Anonymous attack him. in a long winded letter with more trords than water ? hie put his name to his address,, and should be an swered with ope. In short, we ought not to be locke►l out from getting an honest livelihood by conveyancing—it is an open trade, and not at all exclusively . the At tornies, which is o►►iy to bring people into Court,. and to get them out again, as well as they can. I have taken an opinion upon it, a copy whertof 1 send you, if you wish it. Inthel:rican•time, I hope the Old Banister will have a little wore me,rcy on us, and that you will give toe a place in your candid Paper. I am, your bumble servan t, A CEICTIVICATE MAN, But neither a Juggler nor a Thief. Bach Garret, Three Pair, Furuivat's To CORIZE:qi(V.tiDEN'N, Ati I'..tuiti sr LR, I,,lter IV. Tb-morroticr. 'r EAl'lt .1 Al, r EGISTE 11. • rifirm,;(l 1,741. Ittlktnr, h'ikc of 10-0: Princ"iil4l tharfteter7i ty r Mr. 'Kean and Mrs. Irish aarn iu London. -THLAT,LE,lliriAt.,("uvr.vr-GAip)Ex.--,-VenicePreserved: Pierre, Mr. Ynung ; Ilelvidera, Miss O'Neill. After ivhicii; The Libettine. NnntvEn-1 France. D E 1 Lisbon, 1 Gottenburgb, 2'Gficrnsey Lod Jerscy,l Dublin, 2 Waterford. PRICE OF STOCKS rats Dm , AT T:XrELVF: 3 'per CehtAted.s. ill 4 80131 a .1 per ... )8 . 4 7 ,14 98 98 , 4 i 20i1=1 !whit Bonds.. 9Bs. 99 5 . - fly`. Exch. Bills I Bs. 2-Is. pr. 6,lis.forAcc,B2iii 8.2 814 t2l Arerago Price of Brown of f,,mi the Return; made i►- the December, is 495. per civ ;Alt. r Muscovado Sugar, computed Week ending tho 17th day of HIGH IVATER -AT LONDON BRIDGE TOMORROW. Morning, 38 minutes after 2. Evening, 3 minutes after 3, THE SUN. 110EENI QUIS DLCERE FALSUM AUDEAT ? LONDON, TUESD;IY, DECEMBER 23, 1817. We received this morning the Paris Papers of Saturday last. The following are Extiacts "'CHAMBER OF DEPUTIES, DEC. 19. " The Count Beugnot reported from the Com= wittee on the Projet fur the provisional collection of six-twelfths of the Taxes: The Report cha racterised these provisional measures as impolitic, inasmuch as they tended In prevent improvemews or efficient regulations being made with regard to the collection ut the Revenue. The Report finally recognized the necessity of the Projet under existing circumstances, but stating that the Mi nister of Finance would not, under the wOrds of the Projet, be legally' authorized to expend the money received, the RepOrt concluded, by pro posing an addi►ioual article to enable the Mini ster of Finance to open a provisional credit for 184;200,000 francs. " "The thicussion on the Itepot was appointed for Mot)(l,,y. " The discus'sion was I.:slimed on the Projet respecting the Press. " M. Sarteion spoke in favour of the 'Projet with the Amendments ; but contended for the in trottlictiou of }rid by Jury. " AI. Favard de I.ol%lade was in favour of the Pljet and Amendments; and against Trial by .1 (Iry • 111 7 de Bonnl3 teen` over the general theory Of the Liberty of the Press, and advocated the Trial by Jury (a special one) for the offences of the Press. He opposed the Projet. " The closing of the di>cussinn was called for. " Several Members—Nu, . no !• let sonic one speak. - " M. de2Chativelin—l demand to be allowed to speak against the closing of the discussion. 1 , have an observation to make, and I request per mission of the Chamber to. make it. It refers to the declaration which we heard yesterday from the - mouth of one of Ills Majesty's Ministers.—(lnter ruptions.)—Tbm declaration purports—(New in terruptions.--Several Members—speak as to the closing the discussions,—a long and lively agi tation succeeded.) 7 --Without entering into any (11 , 3cussion upon this point, I shall only re mark, that I haveTtiai'd nothing said this day respecting that declaration. (New Inter ruptions. —The cloSitii . of the discussions again demanded.)—Permit me Messieurs to observe, that if you close the discussion his Majesty's Mi nisters will have to speak upon the I'rojet, and you will not have an answer to the declaration to which I allude;—(New murmurs.—Several voices speak of the closing of the iliseussion)-1 supplicate the Chamber to grant me a Moment's attention.— ' In speaking against the closing of the discussion, I cannot limit tnyelt to remark simply upon the number of hours and days during which thisdis eussion has continued ;- I must give a sort of view, however faintly, of' the objecrs which I think ought still to be discussed. In fact, if a Member has 'Observations to make upon what has been said it is impossible for you, not to under stand— • " The President.—The Speaker must state the point upon which he grounds it is opposition to the closing of the discnssion: " 111. ►le ChattyOin.—The greater part of the speakers have called your attention to an Amend ment, which is perhaps not inore import ant than the question which occupies you; namely, oueteu ding to the application of Trial by Jury to oflence's of the Press. N"lhat has been opposed to it ? A de claratiut. prejudicing the question; a declaration of a detertnination not to reetieeit, w hich I b e li eve to he unprecedented,. in 111 ii Chamber, It has been thought right to declare t'hat the -King will not consent to an Amendment, before that Amend ment which has bee►t proposed has the `t6 you) , lt is ilopot: ' know how we are 10 understand that dechracio`:' which I believe 'to he entirely at Vatiance ‘ 0:1 the rights of the Chamber. " The .I)iesident.- , :-The point of ohStrvati ou appears to he stifficiently indicated. IT. de Chmi'velin.—lf . the Assembly recor nizes the,point of my observation, I have nothing to add. The Sp - eAker desended front Tribtio 6 ' . Mestadier presentel hiniself in the Tt' bone The closing of the discussion' was cal l6l . for. " M. Mestadicr.—M de Ronald has presented 6 new system, I propose to develope another, whic.k is also new. lam the first inscribed in the 0110 of speaking, I request a moments attention frai l the Assembly, " A norther of voices—Yes, yes: " Others.—The Reporter to speak.— Tl-' closing: " The President.—ne Reporter has intimated, that he is too much indisposed to appear in til e Ttibune, he has transmitted his Manuscript to Becquey, with whom, if the Chamber closes tb t discussion, the right of speaking rests. The Chamber consulted, but did not dosg the discussion. " M., Alestadier began to speak, and M. I‘l o ' risset spoke at the same time from the Tribune.'" (Laughter.) " The President. —1 must explain to the Cho' ber an incident which has gone beyond my power * M. Favard, M. Mestadier, and M. Dilorisset, were inscribed to speak in favour of the Projet. morning M. Morisset requested to be inscribed speak against it.—(Shouts of Laughter.) " The right of speaking MIS loudly demana l for M. Mestadier, "The Minister of the Intetior.The contemr woos expression ot a determination not to fl" ceive the Amendment has been attributed to ri le of the King's Ministers, when speaking respecti 4 the Royal initiative. Deceived, doubtless, ' 4 Newspaper error, the Speaker -who has descend ed from the Tribune has supposed the contrary 04 what was said. The Minister confined himselfW sheaving that the amendment was contrary to t bt Royal Prerogative ; he was authorized to maii l ' tain Such a proposition by the law itself as pr°' posed, which excludes such an amendment. )1 was so much the more his duty what he s 3la being conformable to Jim opinion of the Colr s mince, and that of several Speakers. therefore no necessity of midiing observatioo i'lier~ i' upon what was not seict. " M. Molisst de handed to be beard—(Nlo o S . agitation succeeded). " The Chamber decided for hearing M. Me /1 tadier; 'who- opposed the introduction of P r i trials, and sugge,ted a number of arnendnienti• " The closing of the di4cussion was ti gain call• ed for, and the Chambernnanimottsly ordered i t to be closed. " The Reporter will be heard to-morrow, a t noon.—Adjourned. • " PARIS, DEC. 20.—The Cour Royale of Ma l ' pellier having put in accusation . 1 1adarne Mansvi on the charge of being in the house of Bancal 9 ‘ t the time of the assassination of M. Fualdes, Maving sent the affair before the Court of As . sil ei of Rhodez, the Court of Cessation, at its 00 4 of yesterday, on the motion of the King'i curette to the Court of Assizes of Rhodez, hash rected Madame Manson to be tried before 0 6 Court of Assiz r of ALIA, on account of the CO' nection of the charge against her with that agah't Bastide, Jausion, tkc. ‘-` The affair of the Sieur de Maubreoil CO menced yesterday before the Cour Royale Dou.ly. " FIVE PER CENTS. 4, Friday.. . f. 85c." As the:l:rids of Mr..llorm are now coneltitle as they are now proper objects of animadversil The acquieScence which we are bound to unto the' verdict of, a 34ry, as law at rese ll ' stands , , may forbid our looking back on the but it is the strongest reason fol . our looking P l. ' wart: to the future. Recently, Great Britain leas suffered a dreadful visitation. The Preacbc' i have called it a judgment upon National Profal)e. !less. Let us beware that we do Dot, by the 00' 6 offence, incur another such punishment !--( 3°17 and his Ordinances have been derided. Tna LA I said, that the derision is punishable.—Suratis 9r'Y' that it cannot be punished. There is no sobV nary benefit or p - rivilege which is valuable for own sake.—That vt hick encourages and sanctio ° profaneness, loses its value; by so touch as poral liberty is less estimable than spititua i l 1' 1 '; rity.—The late Verdi6ts are a practical comin o 4 on the principle—that Juries are judges of laid ' l 3 well as or fact —They are not obliged to take d Law from the Court, which c a n a l one uN d e; s, !O it. Evidence relates to fact only, and wildt.oi' SU( "Tut ben %yid rim 1-Ic liti