The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-02-12 00:00:00

en was mooted, that so far from a repeal of the remedy for the political ills and social grievances would bitterly, perhaps incurably, aggravate both. id they want a separation ? a Hibernian rep , their conduct was comprehensible and consist( eland to be a second Hanover ?-a nominal King ii iirtual government in Dublin ? England might b mover at war. Now, this was not the aim of 1 Ireland. Well, then, they meant one exeS 3 independent legislatures. This was utterly it .h the first principles of the science of governnae h a state of things as two independent legislatures ual executive, possible ? Th e Ki ng ' s Bench ;ht be independent of and, as to Ireland, co-equa Ifs's Bench in L on d on, b ut it was wholly otherwiseshinery of legislation. Suppose that the English umous was favourable to war, while the Irish Hous is declared that we should remain at peace le rt, at which our ambassador had in vain sought 0 e national grievance, would the honourable met' presentative to that power from the King of En :her from the King of Ireland? Or suppose th al ambassador impeached in Ireland, while t lament was voting thanks for his diplomatic con :wo Houses remain under the same executive ? Did not Ireland, herself furnish a painfully nof direct application ? In 1782 she obtain time, the semblance of an independent legislat irable events which, 18 short years after, led to icing the two separate and independent Parham lemselves as t o th e possible existence of such as 778 the English Parliam en t c h ose the Prince . a with extensive restrictions, while the Parham chose him regent without any restrictions choice of the same person was merely an accident : have had one regent with her independent 1 :ngland another; and this, too, without yiolatira on. These facts would show the monstrosity sition as two independent legislatures under one et which all history confirmed -namely, that it w ally, and, he might add, physically Impossible il lent legi s lat ures to co-exist under one executive. s rievanc es o f I re l an d were not peculiar to hear udges, tyranni ca l mag i strates, and sinecurista it to any f orm o f government. If a local legis say to red ress gr i evances in Ireland, why not Cornwall? Nay, to co me nearer to his ow -Leeds; he c ou ld assure the Hous e th at a 1 his constituents com pl a i ne d loudly and with g , grievanc es i mpose d b y its corporation; but l ei thrown out to him that the best remedy w hing a nice little federal independent don:testi' the west riding of Yorkshire. (Hear.) IV aestant Ulster and Catholic Munster have t Ait flam low desire, e e „ tislatures? (H ear. ) Why should not the 0 h " Each ach purer spar low objects of desik defll'fl by baser ti . y have his P ar li ament as well as the Catholic of a Was the Parliament round which the members for Dublin 1. memb er f or Li nco l n had not made a fair a en ,''s Tipperary were now breathing their funereal strains. observations of his (Mr. Macattley's) whip a s'''. Of the anti-commercial e which it invented out of He stated. at that time, that although the afti e u s t aseatholic code, which it p rotectpd—of the treaty of Lit der discussion had been mainly c ause d. hv the , . , i k, which it violated—of the Penal Laws, by which it re-_ .tion turning a deaf ear to the cries of tire Pla',,e,s4, the Catholics to the condition of hewers of wood and such daring violations of the law ought not al t oi rs of w a t er ; ten tell us that th . e old Parliamet o 1. All agreed as to the necessity of punishing the )End aught to be revived! He should like to see that Par-differed - as to the time when. He would n o t ber - ,t• returning in procession, headed by Mr. O'Connell and.. St. bil e . invent that would delay to redress grievances, isi t Which He should like to see in a bodily torm, that.Palliall mean time to see the law outraged —nay, desa l '- —Lich had been branded by the burning eloquence of all s and misguided multitude? Talk of the disU l ' a ,sa i atest patri o t s o f whi c h Ireland could boast.—lii conclu h property in a country in which no properts,:,s's_t to remarked, th a t Mr. Shell which he overwhelmed by was respected, and be told that to enforc he robber, and the murderer, and the incendiai '-' l ', but had indulged in a sort of by pl. y which had P r n he ou ffensive to Ms. Shell, . : zi ' : ;: ties eo . nad . eo ci ) t. s with o f Mr. Macauley, had n not attempted to no an injured people into civil war! (Cheers.) v thi the real subject of debate. e-- He' did not mean war has long since begun, and, if not check& be ruin of the empire. (Cheers.) Thebut this he must say, that . he s Mr. O'Connell would not complain of his ine , e scended"r. h this deep and solemn subje t c h t at w w itl e i greater levity g_ t ; for when we pronounce ae4 polio stency. He may be assured that the high-min H 8 , ,,, 3 i 7 . of the Union, see pronounce that we are doubtful of ed the "no popery" cry in all its fury are not 1 ° - /1 .1 1 31ty of the empire. by all the cry which has raised a repeal of the History will do the Whigs justice: for the HARVEY whatcomplainedth p a la t n A s li t n h i e s y te h rs ad ha in d not ea t c e o te n: ti ___ to inform the house enounced power and place, without obtaining in :_9 , for the redress of the grievances of Ireland.—They award of a fleeting popularity. (Cheers.) lor eaumehsowever, to recognise by the silenc ad eloquence "I' tut l y retired from public life,' because they pet they the fetters from their Catholic brethren. •. as powerful as words—the oxlips oafletehfe the con- intended to place Ireland out of p gent `field (eta refore, which the learned member for Dublin ie r : f , s excite against Earl Grey's government, _ is ag a a la i , ii rd s to call upon the House . Of Commons to declaim_ h n a e n d moment compared with that which Earl Gt4ritaS,:.l7,eiltime'(",ooo of our con -subjects on the mere ground ithstood in order to place the learned or 0 a t'-'Oll confidence thisin t h e t m. n S y uc e h th c e o r nh a d d e ni nc i n e is. (Loud cheers.) They were not dee:Jeri,ishteratlans.-119111oirneclti of the house had been taken up in discussing the •om making the learned gentleman not less ~ ,ts and demerits of Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Stanley.—Now, iject a he may be assured they will never su lil ' ~ t had the house to do with either the merits or the demerits (Deafening cheers, which lasted at least a th ose aentlemen except so far as they displayed themselves resentative of a numerous and flourishing , sae various measures which they respectively brought fo.r am s T s "to advice his Majesty on a certain Wej tts , ir one of t ent, t were outreoftoffi. would and the Lirs concerni ng ' th e state an d defence of his ' l ' i t! 011 t of parliament, the . grievances of I hnd 'ould still 'as prepared to vote for the address which ot 'as s t s , and would still require a remedy at their hands.—He .to preserve invi o l a te a uni o n on which de e aatsl against being considered in favour of the Repeal of ,ng of the empire. (Cheers.) : union though he voted for the amendment. He would sve lira Su 0 (L said there was a practical antithesis, amour In, in the course pursued by Mr. Macaulay. had s support to the amendment, because he saw nothing in hilt, been advanced by government or in the measurees of ito a most elaborate discussion on the union . res i. !-, () they spoke, but concealed henefit r s t a s nd und' guised on isat a cabinet ls wAo unpremeditated, he supports an address w Ile saw nothing but theef afraid the extinction of all argument, puts an end of their own work, and w syere ( sposed.to resort s Ireland dumb, and claps a padlock on he 0 any measures, however hard, to maintain the views they n never stop the throbbings of her big and t : l4o :.: .. u.ok j o o a is. What a strange proceeding on the part Lord LIN RUSSELL said, he considered the opposition Leeds,—to discu ss she . question himself, an d , . 11 h e i c e e ll Was . ,made to 'the Address, and the remarks .upon the is the right to entertain it,—to recommend eae,3Which came from many members as very unfair, and as le Habeas Corpus Act, in order to commit ' ails:hat the from a distorted view of the , case. lie contended and to incarceration, while he himself wantee or ,. disposition to give the country the full benefit of Re a so wide a field of discursive expatiation' t a Y'aa Manifest from the speech; but . the details of the Mr. Macaulay had exhibited the advantages s at in one general discus • a--"Ls.....measures could not be mixed up ministry who idence, and of having a majority of Engaisb, erei: _ was it too much. to ask, that if they had a •whelm a majority of the Irish' members e. confessed) favourable to Reform, y th'e should have confi mmons. lie was prompt to recognise t he should till Tues 'ace in them for a very few days—that they ', who had always Pro ve d hi mse lf a d„- a s e d ay . next, when probably they would hear the explanation and eselopment of the measures intended by government? He • .aintained the absolute necessity of 'giving the Executive ad tional pciwer, in order to put the law into operation in Ireland; and quoted some passages from Mr. O'Connell's late address t° the people of that country, to prove the frequency of the .. est dreauful outragWas it too much, when scenes like these were of every-day ocenrrence, that the house should Pledge itself to assist in restoring order to a country so circum stanced? But there were other circumstances which urged 214 4 a course on the attention of parliament. The house was asiaare of the existence of that feel iri Ireland, which Mr. ,"'Connell so well knew—the feeling out of which arose the (est tendered to so many candidates at th e l ate e l ect i on — t h e te st whi c h t h rew Lord Killeen out of a seat in that house, bieh h e i n every respect so well deserved to occupy. asthe Repeal of the Union was the test to which he referred. was that su bj ec t, so muc h d we l t upon b y Mr. O'Connell, b yits adv as hocat eld s p in the as every English P thing arliament. in Ireland, When such obbut abandoned - Jects were known to be in contemplation, was it too much to call on Parliament to give all the power it could bestow to pre vent such a dismemberment of the united kingdom ? The first act of the Restoration Parliament in 1688, suspended the Hateus .Corpu s Act to prevent the separation of the kingdom —was the question less important now when an attempt was made to separate the two countries, to confiscate all English property in Irel an d , to overturn the Protestant government of that country, aod to substitute in its place some kind of government or par liansent in which the hon. and learned member for Dublin and several of " no, vsould become the leader or ehief—(loud cries of " hear, hear," no")— an d i n w hi c h , f rom hi s ta l ents, h e mild no doubt pl ay a very conspicuous part, but, let him add, we which it woulaase impossible to advance one step without in-. v elvin g the two countries in a war that could end only in the destruction of one o r th e other, and in the.weakening of each t o° such a degree as, to involve the final ruiu of both ? Meat-) It was therefore that he called on parliament to declare the P e rmanence of .the union. aMr. ENVART said that h e s h ould hesitate in the vote he was tto g i ve , if he had- no t t h e assurance of his Majesty's mi ers that strong remedial measures would accompany coer cive legislatiori for Ireland. When he heard the noble lord (sklthorp) state- this . , his coufidence. in the policy of the ministry s w ag tunabated. What were .coercive enactments, unsupported "Y the feelings and the confidence of the country in which they Were to be carried into execution ? In such case force was not Il'ovver ; you might gain a battle, .but you could not maintain a s st ic kliass-, the defeat of the vanquished. was not subjugation. He s s is 'at. wart) was not only. satisfied of this truth : - he thought 'ase that allaurther change shouldsbe a change in peinciple, not ore detail only. You, cannot maintain the religious ascendancy t - ,. : a small inority against the deckled majority of the coml .-Y. (Hear hear.) He recollected well, that when the catholic ' relief , bill eras passed, some shallow politicians told them that it *w ould. be a final measure. lie never could consider it a final sinteasure, while the principle of religious predominance continued sa prevail; and he. must do the old-tory members the justice to 4 . 84 Y, that they maintained that, if you went so far, you must go further. So - thad happened' so it would always happen, when the a mended l onlY in detail, and left the principle, which was `"s teal source -of evil,. unaltered and unredressect. . There were t Mattersn t ers shor • r. Re 'wa moment in the speech to which he w ou ld s happy to infer, from the allusion to the "aaettfeof gseat East.lYndia Company's charter, that extension would be given ta our eastern commerce. He was sure that the least which :re to be compelled to return its elementary principles to of its practical benefits? What mot be the principles— ust be .the prudence and discretion of any man, who contend that, because he had opposed a measure thirty kt ago, and had su b sequen tl y f ound t h at the empire was d by it, he was therefore to be bound by his former 'us; he was not to reap the benefits of experience; he was 'ak the connection which he had formed; he was to dis ev,ery link of it, and to destroy the noble fabric whicad Led ornament and value from the lapse of time ?—h had ornam and value from the lapse of time ?—He "a , that it was the duty of Parliament to attend to the ;' l l of a. free country, when it was made manifest. Among !mons which ought to influence the Legislature of a free PY, that general opinion was the chief. But, in utterin,g Pgitnent, did he mean to ass e rt th a t th e wretc h w h o t ra d e d „chief—the incendiary wh o ,gloated on destruction—the Iv ll o made the defencel ess his prey—the monster who ' fl'cugh all the bonds o f soc i ety — w h o ca ll e d goo d ev il, itl'd 4 good—wh o pl an t e d hi s f ootste p s i n blood, and signal- Path by th to e ruin and desolation which he spread around 4 e mean assert that the feelings of such a man were re spected? —and was he to be told, when he wished to Vie, s angu i nary atroc i t i es of such ruffians, that it was Lille that h e cou ld b e a f r i en d to Irelan d —that i t was im th:tcr any m an w h o vo t e d f or t h ese strong measures to f ee l wIQ yrong s of Ireland? 'there might he gentlemen ' not give him credit for feeling for the wrongs of s e u ° , li utry; but if this so l e reason f or re f us i ng to g i ve r , 1 1 credit was his vote in favour of such measures, 41,1 Shelter himself under the authority of a great and 4 Irish patriot, who had not scrupled to support enact- V violence when the emergency seemed to require them. 3`ll.ant quoted the declaration of Mr. Grattan„that he ~r t e d measures of temporary coercion in order to obtain a goof quiet for the application of permanent remedies to atinued grievances. The subjects of Tithes and Church .r 4 4l ' Mr. Grant said, would soon be brought under conside i 13r Parliament. Into those projects, however, he would r ` e 'ell enter, for his wish was to advert solely to the question el l „ fi D l en). Mr. Bulwer had attributed all the di sc ontent o e'L'Ar prevailed in Ireland to the conduct of a single mem ts,,,`te tabinet. Now, he for one would not accept of such 14 ' lo as compliment. Ile frankly avowed himself to have t vev "' Party to all the measures adopted by Mr. Stanley; and, t om t great the r e l uc t ance m i g ht b e w ith w hi c h h e approach zeeasures of coercion, yet he was prepared to contend, that d u reasion required, and necessity called for them, it was lilt, Y 01 Government, not only to those who were oppressed, s of;4, and assassinated, but also to those who were the ld. delusion, to apply , them with a firm and unshrinking Ire lie contended that a return to the old mode of govern- rev s previous to the Union would not remedy . any of her e p at il , e es• The old I r i s h P ar li ament h a d b een th e instru m en t, al. der, the slave of every base and tyrannical auministra.- 'NELL said—" No, no." continued—At all events he was so at the (I lion. Charles Grey opposed the union. It, ails that w ou ld resu l t from it, and almost 0 evils which are . passing befor e our eyes.,' Limed from a speech of Earl G re y, d e li ve r . e stronglycondemnatory o f th e pen di ng in and contrasted it w ith th e l anguage of the it does that s p eec h recommend ? An enti 1 reasonin g on th e su bj ect. It enjoins silen shall vou no t h ave repeal, but you shall u The "Hab eas C orpus Act i s to be suspc of British lib er ty are to b e trampled under e is to be s t rengt h ene d ; the sceptre is to be at was carri e d by corrupt i on is to be secu iy, more, the boast of Britons, the pride ~i he ornament and th e prop of the constituti I valuable an d d ear, t h e trial by jury, is tcV l cheers.) G oo d G od ! i s i t Lord Grey, ju,,sti, aph of ref orm , w h o recommends this ? tii must be, some su p er i or sp i r i t of dominau ho exercises a fatal ascenctancy, and is the id. Earl Grey had declared misgovernin .ad's evils, which were made the pretext thr, her the ve r y sem bl ance of liberty. Is no one Irishman in the government of Ire ber of this house representing a place in Ir ' it of the government? Not one. Not a 5 teen the pe o pl e an d t h e i r rulers. Look e 1 before a committee of the house, acknowl If Ireland. How did he defend himself Yji answer why there were twenty-six stipeej, I all Protestant? How two chief judges S i .are abo ve his influence ? and why he ri my ? He a sser t e d t h at t h e crown had set lies, and emp ane ll e d t h ree j ur i es, with tik ne, and eleven Protestants in each of the ies of " Hear.") Is this consistent vv 3sed by Lord B roug h am, when he presented; rish Catholics, detailing enormities o f this iounced these detestable practices ? C 3 and is in combustion ? The speech depre' ; outset, in Port uga l. E ng li s h men, do 11°`" :hies to your allies. We are your countil, [ions as any which can be shed upon a air e us in the name of justice, of humaniq , s which you once conferred upon us, by a, ss of our i nsupporta bl e grievances, front' rse than civil, and to which the hoarded Sc, the ranco urs o f re li g i ous hatred, will low ible contribution. (Cheers.) GRANT very much admired Mr. Sheir g o dexterity still more. He had alluded t h at the ou t se t o f hi s own, but had care. ;rappling with its arguments. The V e was the Repeal of the Union with Ir e ?osite were anxious to deviate from it, it to cope with th e arguments of the menlir'; gard to th e s p eec h d el i vered thirty Yeabg, id any man su pp ose t h at a measure inig, years ago, wh en i t was only in conteral " , as justly eu l og i ze d thirty years afte r; had given proof of its b enef i c i a l tendc,j ernment—what was all th e cons tit u tiou': an even had been successfully acconli THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD. the government could grant would be free trade with China, free settlement in India, and a due maintenance of British rights, enforced by a British resident at Canton. For another prospective reform, not indeed directly mentioned in the speech, but announced by the noble lord, (Lord Althorp,) he had to thank the administration. That measure was corporation re form. The inhabitants of extensive constituencies were pecu liarly interested in that measure, and few snore than the vast community to whose partiality he was indebted for the distinc tion of representing them in parliament. He felt confident that the firmest dependence of the ministry was on their determina tion to promote general amendment. Let that be their leading principle; it would prove the most practical and effective answer to the complaints of theh opponents. In the course of sound reform it was impossible to pause, Unless we thought we could except ourselves from the common law of nations, and arrogantly, but vainly, claimed an exemption from the ordinary institutions of mortality. Sir li,. INGLIS then rose and said, that previous to the speech from the hoesmember for Liverpool, with the exception of a few words from the. hon. members for Lincoln and Knares borough, little had been said in the course of the last two nights' debates, on any other subject but Ireland. A stranger coming into the gallery would be apt to think that they had met to con sider the darling question of the hon. member for Dublin—the Repeal of the Limon ; and that they were then sitting in deli beration on College-green. (A laugh.) The hon. member for Knaresborough had said a few words on the subject of our fo reign policy, but nothing had been said by any one else (with the exceptions he mentioned) but on the subject of Ireland alone. Now, though he did not deny that Ireland was entitled to a fair proportion of consideration in that house, he denied that it was entitled to a monopoly. They had heard the errors of the government, and the misery of that country discussed in detail ; and they had heard remedies for these evils discussed, without knowing anything of what the government proposed to do iu regard to them. Now he thought there were other most important subjects which likewise demanded the attention of the house. There was especially that of the church establish ment in this country. All who heard the sentiments expressed by several hon. members must see that the established church is in danger. He would have believed it impossible that such a system of spoliation could ever have been meditated as he heard argued by several members during the present and previous night's debate ; and more especially by the hon. member for Lanark. Such a system could never be pursued regarding either branch of the church without shaking it to its very foun dation. It would be the prelude of the destruction of all pro perty iu tithes, whether ecclesiastical or lay. The result, he felt convinced, would be, that no stop could be put to the spirit of innovation till there was an Agrarian law introduced. He thought he had good reason to feel alarm when he saw his Ma jesty's ministers submit a proposition to that house of a more equitable distribution of the property of any class of his Majes ty's subjects. Whatever the result might be, he could not but consider that a bad omen of the future. He would not follow the hon. member for Dublin in the detail into which he went on the subject of the Church of Ireland, because the whole subject would he fully discussed in the course of the week, but he (Sir It. Inglis) hoped that the house would not think that the asser tion made by that hon. member could be maintained, that one Irish prelate derived the tithe of 90,000 acres. Mr. O'CONNELL corrected the hon. baronet. He had said 96,000 acres. Sir R. INdus was glad to be corrected by the honourable member, as it showed That he did not speak without premedita tion; but he (Sir R. Inglis) cautioned the house not to believe that the amount stated by the hon. , member, as being the re venue derived by the prelate in question, was correct. The hon. hart. then went on to say, that he considered it singular that no allusion had been made iu his Majesty's Speech to sub jects of a domestic nature, which he thought should not have been omitted. Nothing had been said of our having got rid of that dire scourge, the cholera morbus (a laugh,) or of the abundance ()Nile late harvest. He, however, felt grateful to the noble lord opposite .for the form of prayer which had been introduced in reference to these subjects. however lengthy the Speeehmight beoonsidered, he thought that there were ample materials of importance omitted to have at least doubled its length. Mr. H. W. PrAutiox said he was a magistrate in one of the counties referred to in .the speech, and could assert that Ireland had been more disturbed during the last ten years than at this moment. Frightful disturbances had occurred for, eighty years past, before.the "great agitator" was born. When and why was the Whiteboy, Act passed? By an 'lrish Parliament, to put down the diScontented peasantry. The causes of these dis contents were hallows, aud - governmentwhiCh had caused distress and violence in,lreland. He (111r,,Burron) always lived among the people, and they knew that he made sacrifices to them, but he was not spared by the murderers and plunderers. This was not..party feeling of Catholic against Protestant. It was misery urging to destruction. In the comity of Clare much worse con duct, tour .years ago, had been put down by vigour and deter mination—(cheers from the ministerial benches)—without seek ing any extraneous measures, or any suspension of the laws, but by the laws. Limerick, Tipperary, Cork, and Waterford, had all had similar disturbances, but they were all quelled (as the present ones might be) in the same way. Ireland was not confident in the law; because the law was , not-made for, but against her. Her children had never been (disloyal. Let history speak for their constancy to their chieftains, the O'Niells, the O'Brien and the Desmonds. By the aid of her members the Reform Bill of 1832 was passed, and in return they claimed England's support as the right of a people ready to die for William the Fourth. (Hear, hear.) Ireland but sought for her own• management, as in 1782. He asked the noble (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), who he (Mr. Barron) under stood was a good farmer—(a laugh)—what would the noble lord think, if the farmers of Northamptonshire, after cropping and draining the land of its produce, were to carry away the produce ? Such was a case in point when the absentees of Ire land, who, , after draining.the fat of the land, left no manure in its place. (A laugh.) He offered these sentiments as a well wisher for the happiness and prosperity, not only . of his country, but the empire at large. (" Hear," and cries of "Question.'') Amidst which Mr. HUME moved- the adjournment of the question until Thursday. Mr:O6ONNELL seconded the motion, which was agreed to. —Adjourned. THURSDAY. The SPEAKER took the chair at tour o'clock Several mem bers were sworn. A new member complained of the fees.— The Speaker said that the complaint ought not to be made to the chair without notice. _ _ . Anew writ for the city of London was ordered, owing to the death of Alderman Wanhman. . Petitions were presented—by Mr. Mackenzie, from Perth; Mr. C. Marjoribanks, from Berwickshire; and Mr. Mangles, from Guildford, for the better observation of the Sabbath. By Mr. Sergeant Spankic, from Clerkeuwell, for the repeal of the house tax. By Mr. Hill, from Ilull, against the corporation syssem. By Mr. F. Mirth, from Hastings, against the Beer bill. By Mr. Retch, front Knaresborough, - against the window tax. By Mr. Wilkes, from the Protestant Society for Pro tecting Religious Liberty, for the emancipation of the Jews. Notices of Motion were given—by Mr. Wilkes, respecting parochial registers, and the poor-rates on churches and chapels. By Mr. Jervis, for corporation returns, and a bill to regulate fines for freedom, &c. By Mr. Grote, for a return of the silk imported from Italy, the Levant, Bengal, and China, front 1832 to 1833 (sth Jan.)—Agreed to. The following Election Petitions were announced by the clerk :—against the returns for Pctersfield, Oxford, Coleraine, and Stafford, to be taken into consideration on Tuesday fort night; against the return for Bath, Tiverton, and Carnarvon, to be taken into consideration ou ursday fortnight. The following queries were put to the Chancellor of the Ex chequer :—Did i government intend to alter the existing cor-' porations in Scotland ? His lordship said, a bill for their re-' form would be introduced when the Lord Advocate took his seat. (Hear.) The English corporations would be reformed,' and his lordship had no objection to a similar measure for Ire land.—Sir R. Inglis asked if all the necessary papers would be laid on the table before the government motion was made res pecting the church of Ireland ? His lordship replied, that the motion would precede the production of the papers. Did go vernment intend to amend the Beer Bill? His lordship replied in the ucgative.—Mr. Finch inquired if government meant to suppress the political unions ? Lord Althorp • replied " N In reply to Mr. H. Palmer, Mr. G. Lamb said, that the passing of Irish vagrants would he considered by the committee on the poor laws. The order of the day having been read for resuming the. ADJOURNED DEBATES ON THE ADDRESS. Mr. - Holm rose and said he agreed with the hon. member for Ox ford, that any one Nv opld suppose, after the turn the debate had taken fur. the last two days, that the Commons of England had met and been engaged in deliberation von matters which concerned Ireland alone. Be felt it necessary to bring back the attention of the house to the .real point in discussion. At the same time, whilst he complained of the time occupied in the discussion of the Irish part of the question, holutist.say that the fault did not lay with the hon. member for Dub lin, Or with the Irish members, hecanse a more pointed attack than had been-made upon them he had never witnessed.—He had expected that, with a reformed ParliaMent, we should have had a different prac tice as to King's speeches, and that ministers, as in duty bound, would have given an outline of all the plans they had to recommend. No-reference, however, was made to any one branch of industry, as reouiring the consideration of the house. There ought to be a grea 4 reduction of .taxation and lessening of expenditure. The middling classes of society felt the pressure of taxation most severely, and it had been thought by them as a thing impossible that a reformed Par liament would have met without the ministry holding out a promise that they would he relieved of, at least, a portion of their burdens.— When he (Mr. H.) asked the noble lord (Althorp,) the other day, whether it was his intention to do away with a useless military sine cure, the noble lord answered " No." Coupling that answer with other circumstances, he regretted to be obliged to come to the condi:, sion that his Majesty's ministers had no intention to reduce taxation. Ile was quite sure that the disappointment would be dreadfully felt, not only throughout all England, but in Scotland also. The reform bill itself would be useless, unless it was followed up by measures of relief to the people ; and he hoped that his Majesty's ministers would state that it was entirely owing to an error in the King's speech, that the subject of the taxes was omitted. He objected to the house tax, and also to that most odiouaand disgraceful of all taxes—he meant the window tax. (Hear, hear!) If ministers did not immediately take hp the matter as they ought, it would b e a disgrace to a reformed House of Commons not to take up the question themselves. (Hear!) Again, with reference to the speech, the disturbance of Portugal wies placed in front of it, as if that subject should take precedence of all other interests. When the wants of this country were so pressinea was it to be endured, that a foreign nation, like Portugal, should oc cupy the attention of the house 1 His own opinion with regard to Portugal was this, and he had often expressed it before, that the peo ple there ought to be left to settle their own differences. (Hear, hear!) The true policy of this country ought to be, not to interfere with other nations while we had grievances to adjust of our owm (Hear.) With respect to the quarrel between those rival nations, Holland and Bel gium, he was equally opposed to our interference. He declared that we ought never to have lent ourselves to an interference in the °Altars of Belgium and Holland. He put it to the house to say, whether the affairs of our own country were to be overlooked .and neglected, in order to adjust the differences of rival states. There was one part of the King's speech, and he believed he might say one only, in which he cordially concurred : he alluded to the passage in which his Ma jesty referred to the good understanding which existed between this country and France, and the likelihood of a continuance of a friendly feeling. He was convinceillthat nothing was more likely to conduce to the general peace of 'Europe than a good understanding between this country and France; our nearest, most powerful, and most en lightened neighbour. (Ilear.) Ile, therefore, most readily concurred in the alliance formed with that country, and he hoped that his Ma jesty's government would take every opportunity to improve it. Ile hoped the too long delayed questions of the Bank and East India Company would now be speedily settled. As to the Church, the best means to save it, and keep the people within its pale, would be a thorough reform. lie (Mr, Hume) had never, in that house, or any where else, advocated or maintained the: spoliation of the Church establishment, but he would tell the noble lord, that if suchn reform in the abuses of the Church, as that he had mentioned, were much longer delayed, a spoliation of the Church would eventually take place. He therefore trusted, that the changes that werts new to h e _ made in the Church establishment would be as ample as the country desired. He protested against the sentiment o f the speech, that an established church was useful to religion. Even in Scotland this idea is beginuing to be abolished. With regard to Ireland, he was not pre pared to put confidence in the ministers, nor to vote them the 'rimers which they called for, until they proved by their acts that they %sera determined to alter the system of govennnent there. Mr. O'eennea had given a terrifying list of grievances, and Messrs. Macauley and Grant had attempted to answer therri by discussing a tapie nit alluded to in the debate. (Hear.) He (Mr. Ilume) was of opinion that Ire land, being the poorer country, obviously benefited by its intercaerse with' the richer country—England. (Hear, hear.) Entertaining that conviction, he was for maintaining the union ; but he was for a% hat Pitt said it should be—a real union. (Cheers.) it, however, a re forthed Parliament should refuse to redress the wrongs of 1 relinal, and he must say that, from what he now saw, it seemed to refuse such address—(lvutt and general cries of " No, no," mingled with cries of " Hear, hear," from several of the Irish members)—if the reforined parliament should proceed in that way, he certainly would.abandon his sapporrof the union. There was reason enough, however, for refusing the poWers demanded, when they recollected that the right honourable secretar/ .had broken pledged faith with the House re specting the Graiid Airy Bill. (Hear.) Again, the right honourable gentleman talked of ti a ludge alterina the law, and yet did not-impeach him. (Hear, hear.) Were law administered in England as it is in Ire land, would Englishmen be quiet ? No. Were Irishmen, then, not to resist ? Until Mr. Stanley's ill-judged tithe-bill, Ireland had b een quiet. Who was the agitator, then ? IVhy, Mr. Stanley. If mortal man could have averted the danger with which the country was threatened, it was the hon. member for Dublin. Most anxious had he been to..du so ; hislionafriend. would have gone upon imis kueees to avert the danger. But what are the circumstances of the ease ? In the tithe question there were four divisions. To three of these the Irish members agreed. The fourth was id•otested against, not only by the hon. member for Dublin, but also by: such men 'as Sir J. New port and Sir H. Parnell, who, he much regretted, were. no, :longer members of that house. In vain, however, did these parties stru ee aele. The right honourable secretary for Ireland was inexorable. Ile (Mr. 11.) had expected better things from Lord Grey. Ile had expected more firmness—more liberality of feeling. But he must be under some malignant influence, thus to contradict the professions and the practice of his whole life. The arrcar of tithes would have been paid if they . had stopped short of their fourth measure. But ministers stifled the voice of Ireland by their packed majority, and Irishmen were forbidden to meet to petition against tithes. Had such tyr an fiy be en practised in England,' the peopl might have been cat down and de stroyed • but they would, like the brave Irish, have resisted to the last, and they would have triumphed in the end as, the.. Inaba will. Mr. Stanley and Lord Althorp had pledged themselves to remedial measures when they asked for that abused power, bat in the year that was passed what have they done 1 'The vestry- ergs, the sacra ment tax, the. church rate, the tithe oppression, - rotitiquOil... The country was invaded with infantry and dragoons, a civil Near raged in that country, and all to support a whim of Mr. Stanley: (Hear.) A regiment of husSars was ordered to capture a pig, a .battalion of in fantry to, seize a cow : was this to maintain the diamity . of the l aw ? If Lord Grey's government was so weak that it dared, pot he just, so cowardly as to be cruel,—if Lords Brougham andaAltlibip, and Mr. Stanley and others furget their pledges, let the House of Commons, reformed to redress grievances, endeavour to prevent them. (Hear I) They would forget their duty . if they were to grant extraordi nai powers without first ascertaining that. they were necessary to he granted, and therefore he should be happy if his honourable and learned friend, the member for Dublin, would waive his amendment, in order that the amendment of the right honourable gentleman, the member for Lambeth, might be put. (Hear.) The ministry had called Mr. O'Connell, King of Ireland, ascribing to him a king's power ; let them grant his demand, a redress .of grievances, and that power and royalty would he used to restore tranquillity. (Hear.) He then repeated the sense of Mr. Tennyson's amendment, promising support to the King after due investigation and pledging themeelves to 'the support of the union against all lawless attempts to defeat it. (Hear !) Mr. R. Fent:l:sox entreated the house to place confidence in mi nisters who merely asked that the police should be strengthened while insubordination prevailed. . lie was in favour of poor-laws for the helpless, but not for the able-bodied. The property of the church . was state property, and could be applied to secular purniaes. In a short period, ministers, he was certain, would prove that ihey had the real welfare of. Ireland at heart. Major BEAUbLERg warned the government of the dangers they Were incurring, of the precipice to which they were rushing headlbivg; by the conduct at presentadopted towards Ireland. lie thought that the measures of a first reformed Parliament should he of a benevolent and considerate character, rather than of a tone suited to the feelings of the late House of Commons: The sarirings of the people of Eng land were inferior only to those of the Irish, and he called upon mi nisters to relieve them by reducing our overgrown establishments. The English people sympathised with the distress of their Irish fel low-subjects, instead of being actuated, as Mr. O'Connell had declared, by unkind feelings towards them. The'people of England did sympa thise with them,—did feel for thein,felt that they were oppressed and ill-used unmeritedly. The Irish were a gallant, a highminded, and a generous people, and might be turned to any course, and bound to any government, by kindness and fair treatment. But certain gen tlemen would find out, that they were not to be shot in the woods like so many snipes. Mr. L. HALL said he would support the address ; but he hoped that the Irish secretary would speedily inform the house of what he in tended to propose for the relief of Irish distress. Ile was utterly op posed to the repeal of the union, but called upon government to adopt a system of poor-laws, and other measures for pacifying the country. Mr. TANCRED said he considered that the evils under which Ireland laboured were too complicated to admit of their being remedied by the repeal of Grand Jury Acts, Trespass Acts, or other partial mea sures. If, as stated by Mr. Grattan, out of 8,00,000 only 1,600,000 were engaged in agriculture ; if the country were really on the brink of a volcano, as stated by Mr. O'Connell • if half the statements, they had heard repeated were true, he thought' that, rather than suffer so horrible a state of things to go on; they would even be justified in sending out some great military commander, the Duke of Wellington, fo: example,—to rule over Ireland as •a dictator, and bid him take care ne quid detrimenti respublica caperet. Mr. O'CoNNELL rose to order. He wished the words of the hon. member to be taken down. Ile wished to know whether it was con sistent with the usages of Parliament for any member to presume to . of dictator for Ireland? a lt at S t r - E - s a K l EV l s ' at e ttat he supposed Mr. Tant•red was speaking hy pothetically when suggesting a dictator for Ireland. In the course of the debate'last night a similar hypothesis was suggested in reference to a King of Ireland. (Great cheering and laughter.) Mr. TANCRED resumed. lie had not the remotest wish to apply an offensive expression to Ireland ; he only meant to give a strong ex pression of the present deplofable state of the sister country. lie went into a long argument to prove that want of employment was the grand source of political discontent ha Ireland. He also read from a paper with which he had been furnished by Sir Henry Parnell, a state ment of the income of trade and a7r., icultural produce in Ireland since the union, and maintained that the repeal of the union would be highly injurious to its working population. 1 RIDAY. Petitions were presented by Lord MORPETII, from Denbigh, for the abolition of slavery. • Bv Lord ASHLEY, for protection to factory children. His lordship hoped to revise Mr. Sad ler's bill on this subject. Mr. DOUGLAS hoped that Mr. Sadler would not be 'deprived of the honour of that measure. Mr. O'CoNNELn and Sir J. HounousE concurred in that sentiment. Lord Monunin had no objection to the noble lord's bringing forward the bill, although he belonged to no manufacturing dis trict.7-By Mr. RICHARDS, from Knaresborough, for the Obser vance of the -Sabbath. By Admiral ADASI, with the same prayer from Tillieoultry. And by Mr. FVU , I, from Overton. air A. AGNEW would have a special commission to sit on this Subject. The sessional orders were agreed to. • Election petitions were presented complaining of undue re turns for the boroughs of Weymouth, bodford, and Hereford. The first was ordered to be taken into consideration on Thurs day fortnight,. the second on Tuesday the sth of March, and the last on Thursday the ith of March. Notices of motion were given--by Mr. Hume, for the parti culars in the army estimates ; and for the 15th instant, for in quiry into the state of the public accounts of the payments out of the Exchequer. By Mr. Dixon, for returns of the public charities of England and Wales; and by Mr. O'Connell, a si milar return for Ireland. THE QUAKER MEMBER. Among the persons who appeared to be sworn at the table was Mr. JOSEPH PEASE, member for South Durham. The hon. gentleman wore his hat. The SPEAKER rose and said—" I am informed by the clerk, that there is a member at the table who objects to take the usual oaths. I beg to know whether it is so or not? " Mr. PEASE—" I beg to be allowed to make an affirmation to the same . effect." _ _ _ Mr. SPEAKER—" lam merely discharging my duty when I refuse to allow such affirmation to be made without the sanction of the house. Not only are the privileges of the house eon.* corned, and a queition of law involved, but even the persona.: interests of the honourable gentleman are deeply at stake, unl less the house should itself put a different construction upon the words of the act than is at present the received one. The case will be taken up by the house, and I have no doubt it will construe the law most liberally; iu the mean time; rani gee the honourable gentleman will excuse rae for requesting him to retire until the house decides upon the question." MT. P> SSE then bowed and retired.- - • ' • Lord ALTIIORI> immediately moved, " That a select com mittee be appointed to search the journals of the house, and to report to the house' such precedents and acts, or parts of acts of parliament, as related to the right of the people called Quakers, to take their seats iu parliament, and to the privilege conferred on them of making,a solemn affirmation in courts of justice and other places, where, by law, oaths were authorised and re quired to he taken." his lordship observed, that it was not hkely any individual member could have consulted all the acts upon this subject. One of them was entitled, 'An Act to pre vent time undue exaction of tolls or fees on the River Thames, anti to prevent the spreading of Disease among. Horned Cattle.' Mr. Wmtauitrotst, and the SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought the motion should include reports of all cases decided by the judge* on this point. Mr. BARING thought they ought to knO* what pa r t" o f the oath the hon. member refused. Dr. LCSIItNGTON said, that Mr. Pease only objected teethe form of the oath. He would make an affirmation to every word it contained. Au Hox. MEmana hoped Mr. Pease would be admitted be fore the electors of South Durham could hear of his rejection'. A committee was appointed. Mr. CiiiiIIETT said it was strange-to -hear the •manner -in which hon. members were wont to discuss the grievances,of the sister island. (Hear .and laughter.) One Would think they considered it worse than nothing. If so, why were they sore and unwilling to part with it? The .hon. member who spoke last had assumed that, because the exports of Ireland had in creased, therefore hcr,prosperity had increased in the same pro portion, (hear,) and that. sage proposition was cheered-by the right hon. Irish secretary and his coadjutors. But so tar from this being the case it could be proved, - that - in-proPertion as manufactures increased in this country; the profits of the manu facturers and the wages of the workmen had aiminished. Wages in Lancashire - Wein double, when the imports -were- - woo, - to what they . were ,at 12,000; aird•when they reached 20,01'0 hags of cotton imported, 50,000 persons _on full work earned each twopence halfpenny per day ! (Hear.) At the very time when subscriptions were raising in this country, for the relief of the distressed. in Ireland, vessels arrived in the port of London con, taining 22,000 quarters of oats from the town of Galway, when the poor were then actually dying of hunger in the streets:. Of repeal he would say nothing. He did not understand the sills ject, and so would give no opinion. Poor laws, howeier, - 4 a remedy for the grievances of Ireland, were as mere a nostrum as repeal, wliich was trusted in by its supporters. If. poor laws be the remedy for Irish destitution, how came it - that the - desti , tute condition of the English poor was so much complained of? When Mr. Hume, some years ago, wished to control the church property, the present Irish Chancell6r and the present Secre tary for Ireland laid it down as indubitable laW; that parliament hau no more right to deal with the property of .the church than with the property of any private individual. Yet the Secretary for Ireland, •who made that declaration, had now told them that it was:his intention to bring in bills that will actually shake the church ail to pieces. He has found out, therefore, that parlia-• merit bas'a right to deal with the property"of the chnrch--:thati it is public and not private ,property. It was very well for Sir H. Inglis to deny the right of parliament to Meddle with church property at all, but he would insist that it was the nation's pro-. perty. The question respecting it is this, has parliament a right to deal with church property as it pleases, or has it not ? It did once, he knew, deaf with the whole of it: it took it from one set-of men to give it to another set: it took away Tavistock and Wallin Abbey, to give them to the Duke of •Bedford ; and, if it could do that, can it not now take away parochial and dean - and chapter property ? This was not "new light," no gleanings from "the schoolmaster." He had, in 1829, declared. that emancipation Would be incomplete without the destruction of the Protestant hierarchy. In these troublesome times, when some refuse to pay taxes and others talk of resisting .this and that, it was extremely desirable to have a criterion or standard of the right of resistance.' He had g . One over. Locke and Coke, and Blackstone to see how fur we might safely go in that re spect. Blackstone left the matter doubtful; ibut the Secretary for Ireland had cleared up the doubt, and afforded a certain standard of this right; and as if his authority were not suffi ciel.t, there had been added to it the high confirmation of the member for Leeds. They had told the house that, if any state of things arose here, similar to that iu America in the year 1776, then we had a right to -resist, and not before. Let them. see how that applied- to the case of Ireland. The Secretary was mistaken; he thought the Americans -demanded to - be reprj sented in the British House of Commons. They knew a.great deal better. They never demanded any such thing; they ne ver would have listened to such a proposition.. They demanded their own legislature, and their accusation against the Sove reign was, that he had attempted to interfere with the proceed= iugs of their own legislature. Now, let him have a word - with the gentlemen of Ireland. He did not tell them to rebel, al though - the Secretary for Ireland. had praised rebellion, and said it was lawful.' He (Mr, Gobbet:o besought them not to rebel. (Cheers, and cries of order.) Why was he ,called to-order? Was it disorderly, in these times to beseech the _people of Ire land not to rebel? Enough - had been done, perhaps, to cause rebellion; but he entreated them never to rebel; never to suf ferstheaselves- to be tempted - to think about rebellion,nntil-they found some grievances like. those .which the Americans eons plained.of. How was he to know what they complained of?. There will their declaration of independence: there was cause shown for their rebelliOn, and that cause had been declared by the se cretary sufficient. It was written by Jefferson and Madison together, and it was signed by them, by Washington, and the rest (Cries of No, no.) Mr. STANLEY.—Washington did not sign it. Mr. ConsETT.—Well, that is a matter of no importance. (Laughter.) It'is a wonderful error, Which I suppose is to invalidate all I have to say. (Cheers.) This was what the Americans complained of—" That the King of England has called together legislative bodies at places uncomfortable and distant front their residences." That was one charge,. -and this was another—" That the King of England has made judges dependent upon his will alone for the tenure of their offices, and for the amount and payment of their salaries." He did not speak!of the judges, butliow far this was the case with.the jus tices of the peace in Ireland, he would not say. The Ameri cans went on to complain; " That he has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers ttyharass the-peo ple, and to eat out their substance." Whether. such was the case in Jreleud—whetherany people had been sent there to eat out the Substance of the peoplehe would net-take upon him to decide. The next accusation -was, "That he has kept upon 'us standing armies without the consent of our own legtslative .ho dies." "Whether this 'applied now he knew not, but at all events what followed would not fit:—" That he has affected-to render .the .militaay independent of and superior to the civil power4' They had not affected that in Ireland; it was not affectation there. The Americans proceed—" He has combined with others (what impudent dogs they must have been !) to subject us to a jurisdiction fcrcigu - to our usages and unacknowledged by our laws, giving his assent to their acts of pretended legis lation."lhe next charge went • even further,--" That he has quartered large bodies of soldiers among us without consent." This ground of complaint he hoped never could apply to Ire land. (Cheers.) Ile trusted there was not a shadow of ground for applying to onr'present this charge against a former sove reign. Then we came to the following Vor protecting the troops by mock trials from. punishment for any murders com mitted on the-innocent inhabitants." Let the right hon. secre tary for 'lreland think of this let Irish gentlemen think of it. It was a short sentence but conclusive, and it speaks to them as with a voice from above—" For depriving us in many cases of the benefit if triaP by jury," Let them reflect that this justified resistance in: the .case of America according to the lepinions of members of his Majesty's government; .but bait remembered also,. that lie neVerwent,so far in his life. (Hear.) -That justified the Americans in taking up.arms against.theirlaw ful sovereign, whom for many years we had called "the best of kings." Re prayed them, then, 'lotto attempt to deprive their Irish fello*-subjects e of the benefit of the trial by jury ; uid thus afford them a lawful cause for open resistance. He trusted that, the first act of the reformed Parliament would not be a Sicluteuth and Castlereagh act. In answer-to • Mr. Macauley'S claim of gratitude on behalf of Lord Grey and the Whigs, Mr. Cobbett detailed the measures of the wings in 1807 for the relief of the Catholics-; stating':h.ow small a measure their bill was—how glad 'they would have been to have dropped it altogether—how the King,contrivedo turn them put upon it—amid how reluct antly they quitted office. Ile concluded .bv charging all . the . For remainder of Debate, see the .Sth Faye.)