The Sun. — London, England, 1847-02-17 00:00:00

—— - of the Drainage Act, while the Irish proprietors did not? The Act was so drawn up. that it was impossible for any of them to take advareage of it. Whilst he was on the subject of Scot lend, he would state that there was a time when the inhabitants of Paisley—he would not use the term used by another lien. Gentleman, and say that they came yelling for money—but he would say that they were in great distress, and came to the House for a vote of money. Who were the people who supported them on that occasion ? Why, the Irish Members. An Honourable Gentleman, the other evening, in making his first attempt in that House, had stigmatised the Bill of the Noble Lord as an unusual mea sure, and in his argument he confined himself to the immoral tendency of railways. He said that Irish railways were all bubble transactions. If he held any shares in the Kingstown Railway—which it was clear he did not—and had been in the habit of receiving the dividend, he would have been slower to perceive their immoral tendency, or their ruinous character. The Hon. Member for Sunderland had stated that the English capitalists refused to embark their capital in Irish railways, but that was because they had no security for their completion, and if the Government would once assist them, the English capitalists would be the first to come forward. It was not till last week that a grant was made for this railway, amount ing to 78,0001., and it was stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that Mr. Saunders, the secretary to the company, wrote to him, objecting to employ the paupers on the railway. From a letter he had re ceived a few days since from one of the directors of the company, he found that one provision of the grant was that the able-bodied paupers should be employed by task-work to perform the earthwork of the railway. No notice had been taken of the numerous presentments made to the Exche quer by the barony over which he had the honour to preside ; and after a period of four months, the Government had adopted the principle of the soup kitchens, a hint which they took from. that admirable body of men, the Quakers. He did not believe that such benefits would result from this soup measure as were anticipated by the Government. There was no work for the people of Ireland, and the Government ought to establish some system of public works by which the people could obtain provisions. He objected to the statements made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the penurious mode of giving relief to the people of Ireland by the landlords of that country. He was sorry not to see the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place. An HON. MEMBER—He is unwell. Mr. B. OSBORNE—He was still more sorry to hear that intelligence, but he did not wonder at it, after the monstrous statements he had made.—(Laughter.) That Right Hon. Gentleman had been also most grossly misled upon the subject of the immense number of ejecti - nents served in the county of Galway. He had received a letter from the lieutenant of the county, stating that there was no authority for any such assertion. He thought that the Government was most seriously to blame in nut calling the House together at an earlier period. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury had so attacked and refuted the arguments of the three Chancellors of the Exchequer, that it would be cruel to torture them any more. The Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the other side (Mr. Goulburn) had said that it was a most injurious thing to raise a loan in a time of peace. Why, was not the present a most pressing emergency, even more severe than the devastations of war ? Besides, was it not more rational to employ the public money for public purposes, than in improving the private estates of the landlords by grants for drainage ?—(Cheers. ) In the vote he was about to give, he did not feel the mis givings of some Hon. Members, that, if the measure were car ried, the Government would resign. It was nothing more than a mere threat—the Government would not resign. Govern ments often take leave but always seem loath to depart, and the threat was nothing more than a mere crack of the whip for the purpose of bringing up the Whig recussants, who could not be brought to vote except under a threat of resignation. — (Cheers.) He called upon the House not to make the present a party question ; but because he considered the sufferings and distress of Ireland as of greater importance than keeping in a mere Whig Ministry, he should give his moat cordial support to the measure of the Noble Lord.—(Cheers. ) Colonel CONNOLLY congratulated the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn fur the very able and statesmanlike manner in which he had brought the measure under the consideration of the House. He would have no hesitation in saying, that in comparison with the measure brought in by the Govern ment for the relief of Ireland, the Bill of the Noble Lord was perfection itself, and, inasmuch as he (Colonel Connolly) preferred a permanent to a temporary measure, bor rowing, and begging, he would give his most strenuous support to the measure before the House. (Cheers.) He said he had communicated the statement which he had, just made respecting the market of Enniskillen, that the re turns in the one year had been 58,0001., and the next year it had amounted to 93,0001. ; and, in addition, the amount of the population of the town itself. He would not at present, remark further upon Enniskillen, for he would return to it; but from the fact which he had just stated, he passed imme diately to the Ulster Canal, which was the more immediate subject of consideration, and he begged to aek the House, after having heard of so great a difference as that between se,oih)/. and 99,0001., they were prepared to say the Ulster Canal would not ultimately prove remunerative, if only time had been given to improve the traffic, and bring out its pro ductiveness? Again he said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, attempting to disparage the project of the Noble Lord, had stated that much the greater part of the project had been pro posed to be curried out as a matter of private enterprise, and he said that it was proposed to do that at a cost of only 5,000,000/. instead of 16,000,0001., the sum asked for by the Noble Lord. But he (Colonel Connolly) had no doubt that by stating that sum the Noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck) had given himself ample margin, and unwilling to stand at all in his own light, or to meet unnecessarily the amount of public obloquy which would be raised if the smallest part of his plan were not realises', had named such a sum as he was quite sure would bring the whole project, in all its details, to perfect completion. But when the Chancellor of the Exchequer Coin pared the 5,000,0001. with the 16,000,0001., it was strange that, during the course of the discussion, some had entirely overlooked so remarka'le a fact, which had been quite, forgotten, that the project of the Noble Lord had been proposed to be carried out by private capital and enter prise, and that these very persons, as soon as they received the encouragement of the Government, would come to the rescue and effectually carry it out. Too much, he thought, had been made of the withdrawal of those persons for the present from the execution of the works. The House knew well the position in which those persons were—that they were entangled with the difficulties which became general, owing to the un happy state of the money-market. He trusted, however, that they would be able soon to recover themselves, and he thought the fact that those persons had subscribed for the construction of railways some 5,000,0001., a fact which had been used against the Noble Lord's measure, on the contrary made for that measure, and showed that the moment that Government would sanction the raising of 16,000,0001., those persons would certainly come to the rescue, and make good the effectual realisation of the project. He was sorrry to say that it was the unfortunate condition of Irelaird,that the attempt to introduce English capital into that country had left them worse than they were before ; for it had induced a reckless expenditure of money while the spirit of speculation existed, but the money-market became deranged, and this attempt had ended and left them worse than when it began. It had been said, however, that the pro ject had been brought out only to serve the purposes of the railroad speculators, and not to feed the people of Ireland ; but that was an imputation which, as an Irish Member, not think ing it ever would. have been made, but now that it had been made, would repel with the utmost zeal. He thought it was much to the credit of the good judgment displayed by the Noble Lord, when, without any Irishmen in his councils, he had brought out so splendid a project. He (Col. Connolly) did not like to say any more in the presence of the Noble Lord himself, or even so much, but eulogium had become very customary in that House, and the Noble Lord would get used to it.—( Laughter.) It had again been stated that the construction of the railways in the east of Ireland, instead of relieving the Irish people, had actually been a source of poverty to them. Now he did not hesitate to give it his positive denial. He had full opportunity of seeing the operation of railways in Ireland, for his window looked out on two railroads, which ran some ten or twelve miles from Dublin. Now although these railways ran through four parishes, there had yet been no presentment for their con struction at the sessions, and all that he as an individual had been called upon to pay, was only 101., to keep down the markets. The House now, then, had two sets of measures be fore them, and it would be for them to givethe preference but he asked them whether they were prepared to prefer the mea sures of the Government, which, he could not say, would pre serve life, but rather leave them to die by degrees—measures which certainly would not do more than keep them in a mere state of existence--or the measure of the Noble Lord, which offered labour and honest remuneration to the starving people, which would give them due support, and would restore them al most to their former position within a reasonable time ? The latter measure—that proposed by the Noble Lord— offered not merely a miserable support till August, o: autumn next, but labour and remuneration for the next four years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken slightingly of the productiveness of Irish railways. Now he could tell the Right Honourable Gentleman, that before the present session he had come along the course of the Mullin gar line, which was a prolongation of two of the best and great trunk lines in Ireland. He was well acquainted with tire course of that line, and the course of some of the others, and he was strongly impressed with the productive nature of se : er a i nG t i : lo g e ; s r ne o a s tr u d s ea o na s e t t h n ut a or tae hand be t etn h od e b y tenhte s ge h er o Nd u toht l bdheleebt messy non e bre o dlye m wa p Lsh l k e noe t r complete, t ooG h fn o ot do a t r a b n u t r d h nn u e d ge t was t h r ead the present measure. It bad been stated, however, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the people of Ireland were not fitted to carry on the works on I state, in contradicti on t o th a t, on the ; but he begg e d t o published by Sir Joh n Macneil, whe e re c rhede i statedt of a docu men t people were hard set the first week to earn that th e their second they could do it tolerably; and th e thi r d week they were wages; the ambitious of taking task-work, and showed no small a cupidity. He said there was one great system of m ra ount of projected onwards to Cork , and had been contr il ' M w.wys ed to Carlow. It was of no use to compare the remntter:Cl . °1" that railroad with the Lond o n and Bir mingham Railway. of Why, there were about twenty m iles constru c t ed of it at theon end, and about the same extent made at the other extremity, with a large gap in the middl e ; it was im p ossible that such a railway could pay. He thought that one great desideratum in Ireland was a line of railroad between Dublin and Belfast. But he would just advert shortly to the west of Ireland—to the railway between Derry and Enniskillen. There were some ten miles of rail laid down, all the land hail been bargained for, some of it paid for, but it was still unmade; and the question seemed to be in that House whether these speculators ought to be encouraged in their useful efforts to benefit the population. He looked upon these railways as the best means of introducing capital into I re l an d. Th ere was a field of enter prise open, and there was a starving population who were only eager for em ployment. Th e N o bl e L or d' s Bill wou ld not only finish the railways st already i n progress, b ut crea t e o th ers which were al moimperatively demanded, and that not at the cost of th public. The Chancellor of the western part of Ireland had been very much neglected On the coast of Galway the sea was teeming with ash, for which there was no market, while it was notorious that fish boughtin Galway on the Monday could be dressed and up on the table in the a ft ernoon of Tuesday in Liverpool. If th ere were pr be abundance ofproper roads in Ireland, there would commerce there was a salmon fishery, to carry upon th em . I n D o negal salmon was taken eve r y afrre from which one hu n dr e d tons of that trade in salmon had been and it was an u n d ou bt e d fart, cumstance of there being a ra il w oubled from th e s i m pl e e i r - Birmingham.—( Hear, hear.) ay There between Liverpool and ground between Dublin and Galway, was not an i nc h o f places mentioned in the Bill, w hi c h would or not any of the other benefited by the measure of the Noble Lerd be wonderfully out ; the people were starving at each o f these placesif itwas carried for want of a means of communication between them hesitation in saying that nothing would liehad no stimulate the prosperity of Ireland more than the establishment of markets—which were a necessary conseque nce roads. Markets would stimulate the consumpti-n of of good tures ; and thus they would find that there was scarcely man a manufac tures which could be put on the beneficial effects of thepro posal of the Noble Lo rd. Ile had heard it said that this was the time to regenerat e Ir e lan d. He would say to the Noble Lord the Member for London, that it was the time to. re: gen erate Ireland, and the present Bill was the very measure by which it was to be effected.—( Hear, hear.) as , Captain LAY ARD said that every Hon. Member who was an Irish representative would not fail to join in a feeling of gratitude to the Noble Member for Lynn. He considered that a system of railways would confer great good upon Ire land, but he did not see from whenee the money was to come. Where would they find such an enormous sum as 16,000,0004 ? - order of the Lord -Lieutenant. He did not believe that any Public office would have been worth a day's purchase had it not been for that order. Mr. STAFFORD O'BIIIEN said, same time, precious to the is,uing of the order in question, he made a (toren - leic ition to the Government from his part of the country, reecentnentling the m to issue it. He was therefore prepared to :hare its re aponiibility with the Government. Until property was ren dered secure in Ireland, they could not hope that capitalists Would invest their money in it. , T he CHANCELLOR o f th e EXCHEQUER =aid hi' must ... ass for a f ew moments upon t h e attent i on o f the House, wctle he made an explanation in reference to a statement he made the other night. On Friday night last he stated, upon the authority of a gentleman well versed in such tatters, that only from twenty to thirty men per mile were employed in the construction of a railway, tad therefore that only 25 per cent. of the actual cost was expended in labour. Last night the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury said that he had mistaken the meaning of his informant, and he (the Hon. slember for Shrewsbury) heel bad a communication with' him, who stated he meant there were 25 labourers per mile permanently employed upon a railway. This morning he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had re eeived a letter from the gentleman who supplied him with the information ; and, with the permission of the House, he Would read a portion of it. The first paragraph was this : " Of the total cost of railways, 25 per cent. is the outside of What is spent upon the ground in labour. I find, from a large number of results, that the average number of labourers em ployed in the construction of a railway of ordinary character, may be taken at from twenty to thirty men per mile for a pe- Clod of three years." Now, when he addressed the House he did not say that twenty-five men was the number employed; ° e n the contrary, he took the maximum number, thirty, and then, assuming the quantity of workto.be contracted at 1,500 m iles, as stated by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, that would give employment to 45,000 men, that was at the Lite of thirty men per mile, not twenty-five, as stated ba r the Hon, Member for Shrewsbury.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury then went "on to say that be (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had misconceived the informetion Which he had received. He held in his hand a letter from the Woe gentleman whose information he quoted . on Friday last, and which he received this morning , written since the delivery of the speech of the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury last night, in which he stated, "I never called upon Mr. Disraeli, or spoke to him, or communicated with him in any way.—(Laughter.) My information to you was fact." He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had no business to state anything more upon this subject, but he thought upon the authority of the extracts which he had read that it would be evident to the House that the p trson from whom he derived his information did not in any way communicate with the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury; secondly, that he did not say that he (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) was mistaken as to the information he had given to the House ; thirdly, that he did not incor rectly state the information which he had received ; lastly, that no information was given to me by that gentleman, whose name if I were to mention would be considered by all Hon. Members as a most competent authority, had been dis proved. He did not believe that the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury would, any more than he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer ). state anything to the House which he did not believe to be strictly true ; he believed bins perfectly incapable of so doing. Aft er th ose statements he thought it was evident that the lion. Me m b er b a d b een misled or imposed upon, and if he would forgive him making a s uggestion to the Hon. Member, h e wou l d advise him not to make any statements to the House upon which he could not most correctly rely, and the truth of w hi c h h e h a d not most care f u lly s ift e d. By acting otherwise the Hon. Member tended to i n valotate not only such statements as those he made to the House last night, but also to detract from the weight of other statements which he might make to the House.— (Hear, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI could assure the Right Hon. Gentle man that if he used any expression in the course of the debate which might have caused him any annoyance, he ex tremely regretted it. lie felt that respect for the Right Hon. Gentleman which was always due to his position, his talents, Itudhis abilities.—( Hear, hear.) He thought, however, that the Right lion. Gentleman h a d wrongly stated the question before the House. What he (Mr. Disraeli) said to the House Was, that a gentleman of great experience in the management of railways, an d we ll k nown i n th e scientific world, kind " sup posed, in consequence of the speech of the Right Ho "(treble Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the information he had given him had been misunderstood, He had reason to believe that he was the person referred to by the Right Honourable Gentleman, and lamented that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should have fallen into such a mistake. The whole misunder standing arose from the use of anonymous letters. Had the Right Hon. Gentleman mentioned the name of his informant. there could have been no possible mistake upon the subject. He did not say that he had seen the individual to velenn the Right Hon. Gentleman referred, but that he had seen an individual who believed himself to be the person referred to. H. was authorised to name the person to idiom he alluded, but he did not think it fair to do so, especially as the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was present during the interview. Mr. COLLETT said that he would not interfere with the privilege of the Member for Wycombe, hut that he hoped to be fortunate enough to catch the eye of the Speaker before the close of the debate. He thanked her Majesty's Govern ment for the course they had pursued with respect to the Public works. It had answered in every instance, and men who had left the country were new enabled to come back with out the fear of being shot at. Lord CLEMENTS wished to put a que tion to the'llight Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Right Hon. Gentleman in his speech the other slight had stated that the landlords in some parts of Ireland were pur suing a system of ejectment by means of processes for rent to an exent never before known. In one quarter sessions ho had said that 6,40 a processes had been entered, so that 4,000 were issued by the landlords for rent. He was quite sure that the Right lion. Gentleman would not wish to make any misstatement with regard to these processes, and he ( Lord Clements), therefore, wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman from what source he derived his information ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he made the statement on the authority of a person who had been in Mayo and through part of Galway, and who had made the communication to the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland, If the Noble Loid wished to ascertain the number of these processes there would not be the least difficulty in movieg for a return of them. IRISH RAILWAY BILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE. The order of the day for the adjourned debate was then read. Mr. B. OSBORNE said, in rising to address the House he would endeavour to condense his observations as far as the nature of the subject would admit. He quite agreed with what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan cellor of th e E xchequer, that they should steer clear of all party policy or p o li t i cal consideration i n di scuss i ng this ques tion, so important to the interests of Ireland as well as the in terests of this country. He for one never could admit that there was any distinction between the interests of England and those of Ireland, as that which had a tendency to benefit Ireland also benefited this country.—( Hear, hear.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had fallen into the very error himself of which he warned other Hon. Members. He had expressed himself dissatisfied with the names of the Noble Lord and the two lion. Members on the back of the Bill. Now he (Mr. B. Osborne) must say that whatever diterenee of opinion he might have with the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, or the other two Hon. Members, he felt certain that on the present occasion they were sincerely desirous of benefiting Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) This was no party question, and much as he admired fire ability of the Hon. Memb er for Mayof (Mr. D. Brow ne ), lie could not see what connexi on t h ere was between . the earthwork of rail ways and the extension of the franchise, of laying down ra il ways would havean oerffetchtatotahethper.nlcripislhe Church.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member might as well talk of the advantages that would result from a Conservative engineer, or a Protestant surveyor.—( Hear, hear.) In history he recollected a circumstance equally reasonable. It was also during a period of famine. During the great fire of London, when the metropolis was suffering from famine and distress, the people of Ireland sent over 21,00 J fat cattle ; but the historian said, that so high did party spirit run, and so bigoted were the citizens of London, though many of them were famishing, they refused to taste th e beef because they were Popish bullocks.-- (Hear, h ear , an d a l augh.) But they were so, far improved, that none objected to the pre - tent scheme, because the Noble Lord who proposed it was a supporter of the Esta blished Church.—( Hear, hear.) lie ( Mr. B. Osborne) regretted that the Noble Lord the Member her the city of London had not only opposed the Bill, but held out no hope that a measure for railways in Ireland would be introduced in the present session. He (Mr. B. Osborne) lamented that inti mation, but having heard it, he was bound to record his vote in favour of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn. While he gave his support to the principle of the Bill, he did not pledge himself to do so in its details ; for when the Noble Lord spoke of 16,000,000/., he thought that he would have rendered him self more popular if he had mentioned a somewhat le,ser sum. He would not give his support to the measure on the ground assigned by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny ( Mr John O'Connell), who was indifferent as to the nature of the works so long as a large sum of money were transmitted to Ireland. He (Mr. Osborne) would not give the measure his support on that ground, but he believed that the measure of the Noble Lord contemplated profitable works, on which English capital might be safely invested. He could not help observing that Hon. Members who spoke on this question appeared not to have listened to the speeches on the same question by previous 31embers, or to have even looked at the debate in the news papers, for they brought forward the same old fallacies which were urged on the first evening by the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and which were afterwards so triumphantly exploded by the Right Honourable the Lord Mayor of • York and his Honourable Friend the Member for Shrewsbury. The Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer had alleged that only twenty. five per cent. of the gross outlay would be expended io labour, whereas it had been proved that from sixty to seventy per cent. would be so expended. It had also been said that it was not right to interfere with pri vate speculation. As applied to England, no doubt that disc. trine was good, but it was entirely different when introduced into Ireland. The Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests a few years ago was of this opinion, and it he was not mistaken, the position the Noble Lord then took was supported by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Member for Portsmouth—nay, the latter Hon. Gentleman went so far as to say that he was perfectly astounded at the statement of the Hon. Member for Tamwerth, that it would be unwise tee interfere with private speculation in Ireland. ' He came now to the principal objection of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, namely, that he was unwilling that the State should become a great money-lender, He considered that it would be much better that the State should be so, than become a profligate spendthrift, disposing of the money of the country in the highways and bye - ways . _ But what had been _ the policy of the State ? hy, always that of a money lender. He would mention a fact which could not be too often impressed upon the House , that since the union eighteen millions oen millions had been lent to Eng land and Scotland, ou t of which only six millions had bee. repaid, whilst within o th f e am nine millions had been lent to I reland, whichse period nin e t o millions had been repaid. —( No , no.) That was an account greatly to the shame of those cou ntries, and .greatlyto the credit of Ireland. He would now r efer to the statements of the Hon. Member for ;Montrose, and he thought that the Hon. Gentleman was a little hard in his observations with re gard to I r i s h pr o prietors, and lie drew an inference which was certainly not warranted in doing; he objec ted to Ireland's getting any money unless Scotland got some also. o he (Mr. Hume) should have recollected that Scotland got a very fair share of public money. Site got upwards of a million of money fur the Caledonian Canal.—(Hear, hear. ) He drew, moreover, a comparison between the Scotch landed proprietof , and the Irish, bidding the latter to " go and do likewise. Now, he would ask, did he know what the Irish landlords were doing. One Noble Lord in the county of Water ford, with an income of 26,000'. a-year, had spent 5,00 a/. in the purchase of Indian meal, and was employing every labourer bpon his estates, and every other proprietor in the county was imitating his example ; and he knew tha' the la. ies of Ireland were selling their jewels, and disposing of their jointures, in order to alleviate the distress. lie did riot allude to those who were laying down their carriages, arid diminishing heir ex penditures, because that was what ought to be done by every one who had a heart to feel, hut it was not just to hear the Honourable Member thank his God that he was not the pu'die. sinner.--( Hear, hear.) There was the Marquis of Waterford, whose nam e was never heard but in association with works of charity. What was the reason that the Scotch proprietors availed themselves He was content to support the measures of the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), because he believed he would not turn tail in this emergency, but do his, best to promote the welfare of Ireland. The late Government, and those who supported that Government, professed themselves anxious to befriend Ireland, but the Noble Lord at the head of the Government had proposed and expressed himself desirous to carry out others in a similar spirit. There were upwards of a million horses in this country who were fed with corn, but he saw no reason why these horses, but more especially those connected with the army, should not be put on a smaller allowance. If this were done three millions of people would have food for seven or eight months of the year. Many impu tations had b• en cast ou the characters of Irish landlords during the debate, but many of them were spending immense sums of money, with the view of providing food for the people. He read a letter from a gentleman in the Queen's county, stating that the resident gerelemen and others had come forward in a princely manner to relieve their suffering countrymen, and that the owners of the soil, who were in that part absentees, had contributed but a trifling portion of that sum. He was well acquainted with Ireland, and his ex perience led him to form the opinion that a more stringent poor-law was required, which would throw the support of the poor upon the owners of the soil and others, who were in a condition to pay their quota towards their support of the poor. He felt proud, as an Englishman, at the noble exertions which had been made in England for the relief of the distress in Ireland. To show that the Irish are good workers, and could not only rely, when supplied with proper work, on their own exertions, but aid their relatives at home, he read a letter from a gentleman in New York, stating that during a short period—since November last—the labouring Irish of that city had remitted to their relatives in this country 650,000 dollars, or 130,000!. sterling. It was an exciting period, but they must not allow that excitement to prevent their free and calm judgment. He could not support the pro position of the Noble Lord. Sir J. WALSH had been an attentive observer of these debates, and had gathered from the speeches of Irish Members of all parties, and from all parts of Ireland, that the Irish people looked upon the measure in a kindly spirit, and that it would do much to relieve their sufferings. He thought that in the course of the present debate many of the arguments of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been entirely demolished. All the objections he had urged against the measure had been com pletely disposed of. But before going into the merits of the question, he (Sir J. Walsh) would remark that it seemed to be the general impression that the potato crop was not only destroyed, hut that there existed no probability of its being perpetuated. He regretted to hear this, and hoped that such would not be the case; for he could not agree with the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that such would eventually result to the benefit and improvement of Ireland. However much he might admire the tone and spirit of the Right Honourable Gentleman's address, he could not agree with him in the opinions he had expressed on thin subject. He was quite persuaded that if the potato crop was permanently destroyed, there would be the greater suffering and distress, and that it would be perfectly impossible for the poorer class of occupiers to maintain their position in the country. A great deal had also been said respecting a poor.law for Ireland, but he felt sure that if such a poor-law was carried into effect as many advocated, the whole capital of the country would be swallowed up. The property of the country would be borne down by the burden, while the bfatall farmers would themselves be the greatest sufferers. Again, the cultivation of the waste lands had been recommended as a panacea. Now he was firmly persuaded that this scheme was one of the wildest imaginable, and would prove itself anything but adequate for the evils of Ireland. The reclamation of waste lands required two things—time and capital—.whereas the condition of Ireland wanted prompt and active remedies. Emigration had also been referred te, and he much re gretted that the Government had net brought forward a com prehensive scheme as an auxiliary to the other measures they had introduced for the benefit of Ireland. He knew of one noble proprietor who had as agent in Canada to assist all parties who arrived in the colony from his estates in Ireland, and assisted them in locating themselves in the colony. The emigrants, in consequence, found themselves among friends as soon as they got there. Such a system of colonisation might be extended under the direction and control of the Government. — (Hear . ) With regard to the present measure, he believed it would awaken the latent energies of the country, and therefore it had his most cordial support. He would not speak of its advantages in opening up mines of wealth, in accommodating the fishing on the west of Ireland, or in carrying fuel and other produce all over the country ; but he would say that they would be mach to blame if they neglected to introduce into Ireland one of the greatest means of improvement and human elevation ever in vented by the genius of man.—(Hear, hear.) He had no de sire to go into the details of the question after the very able speech of the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, but still he might follow, and pick up some facts which he had left untouched. In doing so, he could not do better than to refer to a report of Sir John Macniel, the eminent engineer, made to the share holders of the Great Southern and Western Railway in Sep tember, 1845. ( The Hon. Member here read an extract from the report in question, stating that, for a considerable time, there had been a great number of labourers employed under him, and that every one was satisfied ; they conducted themselves in the most exemplary manner ; had all been unskilled labourers, and that throughout the district through which the line passed there was no one unemployed. ) By another report - made by the same engineer in the March following, it apeared that there were 2.5,000 labourers em ployed, all Irishmen, in the district, and 'the same beneficial results were in operation. Another objection which he hoard urged by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was, that it would be an injustice to other railways. The Chancellor of the Ex chequer read a letter from a correspondent of his, and indeed all his correspondents appeared to be anonymous, stating that it would be an act of madness on the part of the Government to encourage all the railways projected in Ireland. It was quite clear that railways already established gained enormously by the extension of the railway system, and he could mention many cases in which railways would be benefited by the formation of other lines. Neither could it be said that the English railways would be injured. by this measure, for many of the English lines would be immense gainers by the extension of the rail way system in Ireland. His Right Hon. Friend had urged that private enterprise ought to carry out these railways, and he was willing to admit that the carrying out of these immense undertakings by private enterprise was a great proof of the healthy and. civilised state of the country. But his Right Hon. Friend might push his argument too far, and say that these railways ought not to be carried out by any other means. That was not so. Let them look at the Russian railway from Petersburr e h to Odessa, which was carried out by the Govern ment, and no one could deny that that line would be of im mense benefit to the country ; and similar circumstances existed in France. He could mention many other instances, but he was not willing to occupy the time of the House by entering upon them at present. The objection of the Noble Lord was chiefly a financial one, but he thought that it was an objection which must really rest upon the urgency of the neces sity. The Noble Lord had also said that English funds would not bear this great call upon it, and there could be no argument adduced on the subject which was less founded upon fact. If they could convince the House that the advance was necessary, could any man doubt the capability of the English nation to furnish this comparatively trifling sum ? He did not under stand the Governor ent to object to the advance itself, but only to the security for :repayment. Let them see if the railways in Ireland would give a proper security for the payment. It ap peared from as ext ract from the railway returns, that there were four railways in operation in Ireland—the Dublin and Kingstown, the Ulster Railway, the Dublin and Drogheda, and the Great Southern and Western. The Dublin and :Kingstown paid 9 per cent. ; the Ulster Railway paid 51. 101. per cent. on the share capital ; the Dublin and IN ogheda paid 31. 14s. on the share capital, although not completed ; and the Great Northern and Wes tern, which was only opened since August last, paid 1,000/. per week, and, deducting 4001. per week for working ex penses, that would give 31,2001. per annum. The length of the line was 56 miles, and if that, according to the Nobie Lord, were to cost 16,000/. per mile, that would give 904,000/. The tw o-thirds of that would equal 602,000/., and the interest at three and a half per cent. would be 21,093/. ; and so the 'y would have a revenue of 31,0001. as a security fur 21,0001.. per annum. Was not that a proper se curity for the mousey to be advanced? And let them remem ber that the last railway was only open a few months, and very imperfectly dssveloped. He felt himself forced to give his vote for his N able Friend, for the measure was one calcu lated above all other's to give relief to the present distresses of Ireland. Mr. V. STEWART said, that whatever might be his opinion on this measure, he trusted that the Noble Lord would e consider him less grateful than he should be for what he ( the Noble Lord) had already done for Ireland. He thought that on such a means are, involving so large a sum as 16,000,(100/ , brought forward lee the Noble Lord, and not by a responsible Government, suffi c Tent argument had not been adduced to war rant its adoption.. He thought that the Noble Lord deserved the greatest ere dit for bringing such a measure before the country, but he. 'thought that the Noble Lord ought only to have tendered it.. to the Government, and not do as he was then doing, force it. - upon their consideration. He had not made up his mind, however, that while his country was suffering as it then was front famine, this measure was the one which the House could hest adept to alleviate its miseries. The railways must certainly give general employment to the people on three miles on each side of their course, but even with that admis sion, there would be large portions of the country which would not be benefited by it. Although he was quite aware that every'oody must he anxious to benefit Ireland, still they must necessarily place the Government in a state of greater difficulty by encumbering them with the raising of a loan of 16,000,000!. That was the moment for any one to step forward, and not interfere by forcing them to adopt measures which a responsible Government would not sanction. He swished to say nothing against the formation of railways in Ireland. If they could be f eaL o osi r sumi m nset e tari d nieesc h keo y ,un t gha h ril e Government, he thought they would be of great advantage to I t tw h f e ateoyi c t ountry, for he had taken a great part in the thi s s i d r e ll sign vv . ; rietarn. would uriuf what bh bee e t eoGovernmentifdgt great ytbenefit,e l dwoinu but u give t tbe carryingu thattebuet a rote than o ' n l3 th A stood, for he hld eRR presentO N had occasion,n eve r but tt he greater s p u ai nng icomplicatedving by his public and by his private algageraents, that he could not bring his mind or his conscience to vote against the promo tionslightest interest i promote the interests of of railways in urerulatainlwde.ys,Letbehtim yet tot he e e w m a is s uri e d e e n r- - ways. Last year he had bee i n thi o n ne w o h t ic a h te.e7u u t l a d tio b r e s a single share, or had the con vinced that there wa n s swoblei waited t o which the Duke of Leinster °pp° that country as the formation of rail before the Government of thwaats site ( Sir Robert Peel), at upon the Right lion. Baronet l the head, to put this measure vote which was at that time perf ' e a c y ti views of the Secretary for Ireland,ynionwn7inst .In 1 839 he had given a Wooas and Forests. He had then advocat d o t ibtelbeeen headyeeiewwsi oftwh the tibe be he now held, and they were embodied in the three points he had submitted to the Government. These three points wi were iich shortly as follows , and h e regretted that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government was not in his place. Ile had'thenstated that in Ireland they had no resources, ma capital:no machi nery for the formation of railways in Ireland. But in Eng land precisely the contrar y was the fact, r card in followin g th e Noble Lord in those views he. felt that it was right. Now his principle was this, that if it was right In 1839 to promote the formation of railways , in Ireland, it w is still more right to do so now. He did not pledge himself t o the 16,000,000/., but if the principle were right, then t fee details were of secondary consequence—(Cries of " No, i bo. " ) He might be wrong, but if he understood Parliamentary usage aright, it was that in giving a vote for any measure on • the second reading, he was only committing himself to the principle of the measure and not to the details of the eat n.—( Hear, hear. ) themselves; and the third:course was to maim he money for the They second portion of the plan was to pro mote the railways formation of these several railways, and. he conscientiously believed that not a shilling would be lost. He wou ld refer to a petition which he had presets' .eel in 1:39, and he might say that he should be inconsistent if he 6; 47 te 4 i h o a w . ed for that which had been the obje ct of his d iesiren' er s a Ite by petition was u f headed b Bedford, Earlyt the imn t Dukeouof eashL: :' 1, and ot tier influential men in that country. Th is p et ition f stated . .hat t roily the roads were the best means which could p osse bl y be adopters o -improvement of Ireland. He had been. re , minded tha t the s.ltfollow e tcall present Chancellor of the Exchequer was not Chancellor th bs: qui he would not, therefore, quote that gentle d ' an's opinion, he woule quote the opinion stated by the P .en. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), and that was, that r? ailroads in Ireland was the only cure for the evil, and he hoped 'that his vote would this night be in accordance with his ape iecji in 1539. This aga in, with respect to prospect s o f t h e coun t r y in relation to it s foreign affairs. It was given out this b country by her hceorl‘riyajestylon the first day o f t h e sess i on , th a t still continued, and was likely to continue. on terms of amity with the . foreign P owers o f E urope . I heard that announcement with great satisfaction, but my con fidence in it was somewhat shaken by recollecting the discus sions which took place between this a n d anot h er grea t c ountry upon a certain question ; and the remembrance that it was at the same time announced that three other great Powers in Europe had committed a manifest violation of good faith to wards this country. Now, i this state of things, the Funds at 911., and Exchequer - bills scarcely bearing premiums, the Noble Lord calls upon us to authorise her Majesty's G ov ernment to sanction contracts which are to spread was no transitory calamity passing over Ireland, to be cured in r ver four years, that may amount to 16,0a0,00:W.—( Hear.) seven or eight months. In his own neighbourhood he had I know of no other !no-le for providing fur this assumed defi done all that he could to alleviate the evil.—(hear, hear.) ciency, • except by a vigorous effort—by direct taxation— But it should beremembered that the wholeof the potato crop of ( Hear, hear)—visited on all parts of the United Kingdom— Ireland had been d e st ro y e d, an d therefore it was that. he (Hear, hear) —or by the issue of Exchequer-bills in ths warned the House that w a ne m easures should be devised for , doubtful state of the public revenue, or the comma:tam of a the relief of the people of Ireland, and unless they did devise loan to the amount required, engendering peseibly a direct such measures, he was quit e sure that the people must starve. j taxation in order to provide for the interest of that loan. I What was the condition of the landlords of Ireland ? give no opinion whatever on the policy of adopting the alter- Why that in the majority of the cases the rent was not native course. But suppose the financial Minister considered paid by one-fourth of the tenants; that in half the cases there 'it right to risk the loan upon Exchequer-bills, lam was not one-sixth of the rent paid ; and in many cases it was : compelled to ask, would it be advisable to increase the (faculty an actual fact that the people who were oppressed were them- , of his financial position by entering into engagements to the selves more in need of relief than those who were on the list of amount of 16,000,000/., to be spread over a period of four the guardians. He knew a nobleman, a landlord in the county y ears? Sir, I must totally and entirely differ from those who contend that you can pledge the public credit of the c o u ntr y of Tipperary, whose annual rental was some 7 , 400 / ., but what would the House think when he told them that that nobleman for the purpose of promoting commercial enterprise without had only receiVed 510/ out of his 7,400/., being not 8 per . subjecting the country to any risk of loss. ( Hear, cent. of that which was legally due to him ? He told Hons i hear.) Why, the Noble Lord may find it absolutely ne- Gentlemen in that House that the landlords in that country 1 cessary to provide also four millions of money in the with which he was connected, as well as in the county • present year to meet the emergency of the time ; next to it, had sold their houses, given up their ' and, depend upon it, you will at once so surcharge 1 carriages, and devoted their time and their money to the f the money market, that there must be a positive addition made maintenance of the destitute poor in their localities ; th e y had to the interest paid upon Exchequer-bills. —(Hear, hear. ) taxed themselves to the extent of 30s. in the pound on their iWhat is the public credit of the country ? Why it is a part of rental. In one barony in the county of Waterford, they had, the national property—it is one of the elements of our financial up to that period, laid on themselves a burden of 30s. on their strength, and you cannot appropriate any portion of that credit average rental to meet the exigencies of the barony. He to the encouragement of commercial enterprise without weak knew three landlords in the same county who employed and ening your power to apply the same principle in cases of emer paid from their own resources upwards of 1,200 individuals, gency. It is quite impossible that the contrary should be and if Hon. Members doubted the fact, he would give the the case, and, therefore, I say that the application of names of these three gentlemen, although it was sometimes the national credit is very much the same in principle as the unpleasant to do so in that House. And when Irish Members application of direct taxation.—(Hear, hear.) Every appli- were told, by the Hon. Member for Inverness, that the land- cation of the public credit engenders a necessity of an in lords of Ireland ought to hare taken measure. to borrow money creased taxation, and renders you less able to make a great from the Government, as the landlords in the Highlands of exertion when necessary ; and therefore it does become abso- Scotland,:and in other places, had done, his ( Sir H. Barron's) lutely necessary to consider w h e th er the application of sixteen answer to that was, that he himself, and other Irish landlords, millions of money is required for the purpose of meeting the had applied to the Board of Works for a portion of the million, present calamity and averting the future danger of Ire which had in a previous session been voted for the purposes land, and whether the gain is equal to the risk of draining; and what did the House think was the answer he we run from such an application. If I understand received from the Board ? Why, he got a post letter asking the Bill, it is this, it enables the Treasury to advance, for the him if he was a tenant for life, because, if he was, he need not next four years, a sum, the maximum of which is sixteen apply, as the Government had taken the opinion of the law millions; it does not impose any obligation that the whole sum officers of the Crown, and the provisions of the measure did not is to be levied at the same time, but twelve millions may be apply to such• Why, he told the House that eleven out of levied in four years, and the remainder when the Railway every twelve proprietors in Ireland were tenants for life, and Commissioners might desire. This advance of sixteen therefore they did not get a single shilling out of the million millions was not limited to railways that had absolutely which had been so much talked about in that House and out received the sanction of Parliament; but supposing, of it, and they were altogether thrown on their own resources. after the investigation of the Railway Commissioners, That was the fair and honest answer to give to the Hon. Member there should be f li o cation o und only tw a ve suffi m ci illient extent u must of works for Inverness. And now he might perhaps b e allowed to say that to demand the appf el,ons, yo he regretted exceedingly the tone adopted by the Chancellor infer that the Treasury is limited to advance only the of the Exchequer in regard to Irish landlords. He regretted 12,000,000/.; power is given in the Bill to the Treasury to ad that tone most sincerely, because he thought it an improper vance the other four if Parliament should give its sanction to tone to take with regard to Ireland; he thought that her dis- any other projects. It is not that the Treasury is liable to ad tresses and difficulties were great, and it peculiarly interested vance the money, but as I read the Bill, there is no discretion the Government of this empire, the people, and this House, to given to withold it, provided that the Railway Commissioners show their sympathy by giving their assistance to that country. certify that the project is likely to afford employment, and be He would net dwell at any length on this point, but he hoped beneficial to the country. The power which was invested in that a sympathy of feeling would be evinced by her Majesty's that department_ was taken away, and placed in the hands of Government with the people of Ireland . The Chancellor of Hon. Gentlemen who might be railway shareholders. It was the Exchequer had told them that this Bill was intended rather certainly a novel principle to make the Treasury of the country, for the relief of destitute shareholders than of the destitute poor with respect to the advance of sixteen millions in the course of of Ireland. That might have been intended as a very good four years a mere instrument destitute of power, and to transfer antithesis--as an amusing way of putting the question—but it it to a body in no penssil, and inn no way I i ter rested was not consistent with the fact. The Bill was for the pur- in economising the eture of the contry. It certainly pose of giving assistance to the poor of Ireland. He believed was a novel principle to introduce. What Ito divest the Trea in his conscience that this was the objectof the Bill, and for sury of its power, and make it a mere inetrument in the hands that reason he intended to vote for the second reading. He of Railway Commissioners, compelled to advance the public (Sir H. W. Barron) had no connexion with the destitute money on the certificate of those Commissioners, which was shareholders in Ireland, or any other shareholders, but the Bill not even very stringent in its provisions, as the Treasury received his support because it was intended to give relief to should find the money if the certificate ran thus,— " That the all classes in the country, from the highest peer to the hum- effect of the railway would be beneficial to the public, and likely the country has n o blest peasant. He knew that the landlords in Ireland had to afford p ublic em p lo y ment." It is not to be that there is comemann forward manner.—(Cries (cr o i e n s this of f ,Question, , e squestion.") most on . n ,, 0 ) bl e He e n generousd thought it thatany certaintyeertifieat certificate, the t h r e e pfianyamneeni financial Hp department e Bear)—and e t a o r f ) Than don receiving right to state these things, because much had been said in that _option, but m ust' at once proceed to raise the required amount. House against the course pursued by the more wealthy classes Now, as to the prospect of repayment, it was generally of Ireland. In the city of Waterford, the merchants, the assumed that at the end of thirty shopkeepers, and the residents of all degrees were doing their money back again. But observe that would obtaintheir ea r s they duty nobly ; they had not got the assistance of a shilling from in the Bill which insisted on the e borrow there was no providing borrowing company provisions Government, and yet they had four relief committees at for the gradual repayment of the loan. Last year—l allude to work.—(Hear, hear.) He did not, however say, that the the Drainage landlords of Ireland had in every period of their country's interest, at three-and-a-half per emit. but to provided that history done their duty so well; he admitted that absentee the borrower should instatly commence we the landlords had grossly neglected their estates and forgotten the principal at not less than six-and- a- hal per interests of their tenantry. It became every man who retained But by the present Bill the borrower could do so at three a f ee ling of humanity in his bosom to attend in his place and cent., and is not required to repay any portion until the expira toPer provide some means for the relief of the starving thousands tion of thirty years. Well, even at that remote period in Ireland ; this measure afforded hopes of doing so, and there- (A laugh)—have you a certain prospect of getting back an fore he should give it all the support in his power, because in portion of it ? By nu means; for there is a clause in thus acting he would be doing his duty to his constituents, his the Bill which provides that the time can be extended. country, and his God. The measure, I admit, is as: free from objection as that for Sir ROBERT PEEL said—Sir, it is my wish to discuss making roads, or administering relief; and it was not on that the proposal which has been brought forward by the Noble account that I have considered it right to oppose it. The lion. ' 't and temper befitting the deep sense which I Gentleman who sits near me (Mr. Hudson) takes a particular Lord in a spirit entertain for the magnitude of the calamity under which pride in that part of the Bill which pays off mortgages on the Ireland is now suffering , and the magnitude of that future railways which are now existing.—(Laughter.) The first danger which is, I fear, impending over b her.—( Cheers. ) Sir, part of the measure pays off three debts.—( Laughter. ) I understand the Noble Lord to bring forward this question in (Mr. Hudson here observed that it was only intended to from all party feeling. I understand him to pay Ml' the private debts. )—But, says the lion. Gentleman, a spirit free in hostile rivalry with this will make the coast clear if they pay off the pr'vate debts.— bring it forward, not as a measure a (Laughter.) I understand, therefore, that the first application the proposal of her 'Majesty's Government, but as of be advancedf tI , T• by the Noble Lord towards the mea- the money to from i t ,Treasury would be to contribution suggested sues that were deemed to be calculated to diminish the suffer- pay off the creditors of the railways. even though they were not bags of Ireland. Sir. in that spirit it is my intention to dis- holders of shares. —)Laughter.) Some railway companies were at present borrowing money at 5 per cent. (Mr. Hudson re cuss it. lam the more inclined to do so-, because the vote which I shall give will be upon the merits of the question marked that the Great Western Company only paid 4i•per founded, and will be influenced by the consideration of those cent.) The Hon. Gentleman says—See what I have done; consequences which the Noble Lord indicatedwis the possible re- look at the state of the money-inarket. I have been able to sult of the measure. Sir, the proposal is, that the credit of the raise a capital of ten millions within three or four months. But, he says, don't suppose that I have a share in any Irish country should be plec'ged to the amount of sixteen millions for railway. I have no interest whatever in any Irish railway.— the purpose of providing employment for the poor of Ireland. Sir, the extent to which it is proposed so to engage the credit (Laughter.) Is it not a fact, however, that a great portion of this country, justifies, and, in my opinion, necessitates some of the shareholders in Irish railways were Englishmen?— reference to the financial condition and financial prospects of art Hear, hear. The Hou. Member for Lynn said, "See what the country. Sir, the financial condition of the eountry, judg- enormous profit the construction of Irish railways will ing from the last returns, made up to the beginning of Janu- be to the English railways. Can it be supposed that a railway ary last, shows the financial condition of the country, no doubt, with a terminus in Waterford, Drogheda, or Dublin, will be of to be in a prosperous state. It would appear from no use to English railways ?" But if this undoubted and those returns, that the amount of revenue received within the enormous profit to English railways be the cousequence of the near—not of course ending the sth of April, but on the sth of construction of Irish railways, on what ground do they now 'January last—that the amount of revenue received within the come forward and ask Government for assistance?—(Cheers. ) year far exceeded the estimate which was made by my Right Suppose they are deriving 10 per cent. on the railways in this Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That revenue country, and that an extraordinary increase of profit is ex- was partly derived, no doubt, from sources which my Right pected on the completion of the Irish railwae s, why do they ask Hon. Friend could not calculate, but, speaking generally of money at 3i per cent. for which they sought to pay five or the ordinary sources of revenue for the year ending on the Ist 6 per cent.?—(Cheers.) Was not that of January last, the receipts were greater than the most sanguine cent., or 25,000/. on every 1,000,000/.?—( Cheers.) if that be expectation could tire.. ant:wonted._ (Hoar, hear.) Sir, I the case, then do not say it is merely pledging the public credit; think any Right Hon. Friend calculated that the amount of it is a direct bonus on Irish railways.—(Cheers. I, there. revenue, for the year ending sth April, 1847, would be about fore, am of opinion that no claim whatever has been established 51,900,00 0 /. for Government assistance. Even if they were not sharehold- Mr. GOULBURSO,OOO,OOO/. era in these railways, they would have no right to claim Go- Sir R. PEEL—Yes, 50,900,000/. —that would be about Le s T e me s n o t ro assistance for d a n n n u d n o d u e b r t t o a d k o in v g d which they stated pos -51,000,000/. The net receipts of the year ending the n sth no o t f ___( d clear h a e n a y r. i be en t e r e o s e of w i v e i l !: 3 h ic a xr b o e tt. Hear, ) If the statements January last (being the receipts to the sth of Januaryado. an made, they were an inducement to English shareholders to come the sth of April, were not less than 53,00 0 , 0 lo boloßl ht forward and embark their capital in these railways, and my excess of 2,000,0001. upon the estimate of Ty g Th e Honourable Friend ( Mr. Hudson) should come forward Honourable Friend.—(Cries of " Hear, hear. 9 10,000/ , liberally, and head the list.—(Cheers and laughter.) But if, balance in the Exchequer was not less than , notwithstanding all these objections, it be a great measure, nditur . e and the total amount of excess of revenue over exp s e t _ e re calculated as the Noble Lord (Bentinck) says, to encourage was, I think, about 2,800,060/. So far, therefore, h industrial enterprise in Ireland—calculated as a great Mew u a ncerned, oeipts and disbursements up to the present year are co went to work out the social amelioration of the condition of but with the financial condition of the country is prosperous ; t h e that country—l am not disposed to be diverted from the attain reference to the proposal of the Noble Lord, pledgingfor our merit of such desirable results by the financial difficulties that country to the amount of 16,000,000 L, the matter ear ban may be its accompaniment ; but it is because I have a doubt consideration is rather the prospects of the coming ye ) t Sir, that neither the advantages predicted, nor a considerable the results of the year that has past.—(Hear , Govern- portion of them, will result from the adoption of the measure, the Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty C 'll upon end that the financial difficulties to which I have adverted will went, or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, w s l y, ovn. Govern- certainly be its attendant, that has decided the vote which I an early day, state to us the view which her Majestty i al a . re shall give to-night.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for ment take of the financial state of the country. r S . he comingPP- Shrewsbury has alluded to the mistakes of the Chancellor of the bend they can hardly calculate upon the receipts of tExchequer, and has endeavoured to show the great mistakes as the financial year being greater, perhaps not so great, to con- made by the Right Hon. Gentleman ; but I think there was one receipts of the present year. It is hardly possible .. mistake into which he himself fell. The Honourable ns in the ceive that, considering the high price of prov i rs e i t o ores Gentleman was referring to the inferiority of Ireland , par country, considering the depressed state of roan: to England, and was stating what a strange contrast tahe expected titularly in some great branches, considering there existed between the currency of Scotland and Ireland. ofactures— high price of one of the great raw materials of m h a e n high r i„ I consider that as a most fallacious test of the prosperity of the I mean cotton—considering the effect which t country. It has been the evil of Scotland that it has nut of Europe, of provisions thoughout the whole continent ited States of increased its circulation. I believe that no country in the and the high price of provisions in the U world has made more rapid advances than Scotland has, onsumption in America must produce upon the power of . c 's hardly possi- and yet by looking at the comparison of the amount different quarters of Europe and America —it 1 rd circum- of the present currency with what it was thirty years since, ble for us to believe that this concurrence of untoward the it would be found that the factsof Sir, as to the case were decidedly in stances will not materially affect the revenue. to calculate opposition to the arouments of the Hon. Member for Shr;: expenditure of the coming year, we shall Have r espect to the bury. The Hon. Member stated that in Ireland the amount w s of upon no ordinary expenditure. I believe, 1 estimates, notes in circulation averaged only 1/. per head, whereas ' in military estimates, the naval, army, and ordnance,ooo/. I Scotland it was equal to 16/ • head. .. pet there will be an addition of not less than that Mr. DISRAELI—No no. I beUeve do not quarrel with that estimate estimate Sir R. PEEL—This showed ' the necessity for indulgence no Goverment would propose an 'increasedbite necessity. on the part of Hon. Members in alluding to s weelles of that kind without a deep sense of P j o u m pla,int •, on the vioualy delivered. I certainly understood the /l i on. Member peee I am not alluding to it, therefore, by way 0! . lit with Govern- to say that the allowance for Scotland was at the rate of 161. contrary, I am ready to incur the respoesibiastYifie _ d by public per head. merit in taking that additional vote, if it is j there is an actual Mr. DISRAELI—Not of currency. affairs. But with respect to that estimatnet,tot an ticipate that Sir R. PEEL—Then I hey e mistaken the statements of the increase proposed of 400,000/., while I ca estimates. I Hon. Member. I have not the slightest wash to misquote the ex there will be any reduction in the miscellaneous expenditure on the pressions of any Hon. Member.—( Hear. ) I was going, however, apprehend that there will be an additional expenditure will to advert to that which is, after all, the main test of the pros charge of debt, and thus the ordinar annual_ yofthe present.—( H ear, perity of a nation. The lion. Member for Shrewsbury says charge exceed the expenditure the future. I that he admits the truth of the abstract doctrine, that it is to hear. ) Then, Sir, with respect acingaccount of the better to leave commercial enterprise free of all State inter am prepared to expect an increasoe_ that I ference. I think th a t d oc t r i ne i s no t only practically sure, but. necessary expenses, for the purpose, f y for the purpose of roiti- in the case of England, I think it is also perfectly practicable, am prepared and ready to do, name "n ' t oversahelm Ireland,— The prospect of commercial gain is alone the feeling which gating those horrors which at Prescient to a full expenditure influences the conduct or enters into the vie rs of tt.e specu ( Hear, hear.) lam prepared to c d on w to this country in common lator—(Hear, hear)—he calculates upon a certain amount of —to a'liberal expenditure —to afford e that the necessary result profit, and the number of men whom he has to employ ; with the other relief, but I anticipate derable deficit, comparing these and other considerations it is which induce him to de will be this—it will cause a c".l cessary expenditure. Sup.. termine whether he shall speculate in a certain enterprise or the revenue of next year with the necessary aalleh upon Ireland, it is not. The doctrine of non-interference is not only perfectly posing this terrible calamity had f have been enabled to esti- true, but also perfectly applicable. But the Hon. Member for possible that the Noble Lord might of revenue, but if the amount Shrewsbury says that those doctrines are not perfectly appli mate some considerable excess_reland should at all approach the cable in a country like Ireland, because, there, political con • of expenditure required ford ay the Noble Lord, namely, some siderations overpower commercial speculations. The State SUM that has been estimatei is still highly probable that there has misgoverned Ireland, and, therefore, the State should in- ' 9, or possibly 11 luil li T'Aptril, 1848, a deficit of not less than terfere in commercial enterprise.—( Hear, hear.) That is an will be, on the sth p inn the actual expenditure with the argument I wish to protest against. Ido not think it is for 7 or 8 millions, Iccbmeciearve you will have to follow up that ex- the advantage of Ireland that political coneiderations should receipts. Bu t, a nd liberal expenditure, to enable the overpower those considerations. 1 r e I have heard several speeches penditure by a a g l the foundation of a better food than from Hon Members who have addressed the House in favour of le of Ireland to ay hitherto existed .—(Hear, h t have . • •_(Hear, hear.) the measure, and, from those speeches, lam convinced that if that upon whic therefore, will be in having proceeded, the statements made by those Hon. Members be true, t object, Our great object, to meet the present emergency to eon- they arc such as should induce the Irish landlords to encourage, by absolute nee hat th easures will be. I h tl • from their ope l e), own resources, the commerce of the country. — s ki e r minutely ‘ v • wise, and cand'd dl' w ee d in a i , anliberal spirit, ( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Lynn said, will be mane foundation of that social regeneration shall lay the , so far " Complete the Irish railroads, complete the 1,5011 miles such he as o f the peoPie. is cuncerned• — (Hear, hear.) of railroads, and see what will be the benefit to the Irish land sustenance rotoking at these measures and exertions on the part of the lords. The land upon every square mile adjoining the railway and the country, considering the great expendi- will be improved, every acre within the vicinity of that rail Government aired, and considering that, to will be red rental will . me et t h e way will be improved by a positive addition to the value of the tore that emergencY, it require a sum of not less than seven rental, taking it at the lowest estimate of 103. per acre. The present .11. n s it is hardly possible that the future finan- whole number of acres so improved in the annual rental of or eight no , 10 ,_ f the country can be • • gratifying.—( Hear 103 will amount to 1,900,0001. ; and this increase ciao condition o ~ . wit h these financial pros tof rental would cause in the purchase price of the land an ad- Now,pec s before . . hear.) i t i n quire what is the 000.0001." If thin, then, is the profit to be der.ved u 3, let us 'nstate of the mono market. present and damn of 23 'landlords b the construction of these rail wawa why probable future That inquiry by the Irish s a s mile, but I U 8 the make thes e r a ilroads?—(Cheers.) Have I ' not Y e . may possibly excite e term money-market do they not means neither more nor l ess than wh at ' htcall upon the Irish landowners in the vicinity of these in the sense that are rig to Public the can borrow so give every , ficility to an enterprise, from the bene the terms upon which the public wants money for the railways, - which they are to derive the sum of 23,00w000/.? purpose of supply ing should contrac.—t wants.—( Hear hear.) It is ficial effects of reference to the Galway fisheries, the Hun. Mem roposed that thepublic another loan for the Now, with n measure. It will be Stamford (the Marquis of Granby) said that the people purpose of a certain measure. a burden upon the ber for provided for in some ould go out in their boats, and bring on their return people which inns ( Bear, hear.) \N li way or other by of Galway could go of herrings to the value of 4,000/., the public securities.--, 'Centse then, 1 find that the with them a quart 1 saidlwhat benefit • of a single night; and, ie, a it would Three-and-a -Half per if they were enabled to take their fish to were at not less than par, which were, even a short time ago, as be to the Irish pe ople, . of raj - Il• of 1 ways, am e ispose present not more than arts of the country by means high as 100/., are at 911. Calculating other pa the last 'instead of having to lay idle for three or four nights, that price with thosesix or seven months, that it at once, of less thanto the value of 4,000/. on each night. Are not shows& depression of not now look 4or 5 per cent. So much for and losing fish . derations of great commercial importance, and funded property. Let us h landownei s embark their property in such find in the case of the Exchequer-bills that they are at a dis- should not the Irish Their land will be improved, and count, or at all events, only some 53. premium. Now, of course, valuable undertakings . 4 •es will be eneourage the state of the money-market is a most material considera. lirofitable fisheries will they have got no money. tion in discussing the question of the Noble Lord. Then, Mr. HUDSON 'EL — The taon. .al ember for Sunderland says they t the - Sir R. Pk , Why, there is the same power that raised ._ . of the land, by advising, with the hearty consent of the land- y owners theinselvea the adoption of some measure to facilitate the purchase o land upon fair and equitable terms.—(Cheers.) Nothing is more easy than for you to do that. You have al ready done it one case—the case of the Shannon navigation. li, that case the claims have been left to the decision cf the Shannon ComtuiEsioners. Their awards have been so jut s and made in so fair a spirit, that not a single appeal has been made against their decision. The same principle is carried out in France and Belgium, and I earnestly hope that some me asure will be adopted for the purpose of simpli fying the titles to property in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, it has been said that political or religious differences would prevent the people acting in concert in the formation of these works of utility. They should be invited to take part in the concerns of their common country, and all these religious and political animosities will pass away -when they find that it is their interest and their duty to combine together to encourage these works, and to discourage all those party feelings and religious animosities.—( Cheers.) But let the p e ople suppose that they can do nothing for themselves, and that the Government is prepared to do everything for them, these animosities will continue to prevent the appli sation of the capital and energies of the people to the promotion of works of commercial enterprise. Thus they will obtain double advantages by leaving those works to be constructed by the means of individual enterprise, and, at the same time, encouraging great social improvements among the people. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Shrewsbury called upon the State to snake those railways ; but what advantages were to acorue in return? There is, he said, a field of coal at hallow more extensive than any coal-field in operation in England. " Make a railway," he said, " and not five years will elapse before that field of coal will be explored, and its produce carried along the line proposed to be con structed to various parts of Ireland. It would be transported to Dublin, and to the other large consuming towns in the country." He said further, that it would be found as important and lucrative a coal-field as any in England. But why do political considerations overpower commercial considerations? Why do not men of capital, and men of sense, estimate the probable produce of that coal-field, and calculate what amount of toll would be received for the transmission of that produce over the line?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman also said that the fisheries will receive a new stimulus—that new resi dents will be brought into the country, and that the trade of the country will be increased. But why are not all these results still obtained by the commercial instead of political enterprise? I firmly believe, that if you do not overpower Irish enterprise by the application of English capital by Government interfer ence, I firmly believe, that at no remote period, that those works will be carried out by the enterprise of the country.— ( Hear, hear.) If I really believed the financial condition of the country would permit it, and that it would be decidedly for the advantage of Ireland, a great part of my, objections would be removed, but I have most serious doubts that if you fetter Irish enterprise by the applica tion of English capital, as proposed in the Noble Lord's Bill, I do doubt very much whether it would be for the benefit of the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.) Yet, I admit that there have been interferences by the State for the purpose of promoting public works. In the last year, when I was the First Lord of the Treasury, I consented to advance some money to an Irish railway on the same principle upon which advances for commercial purposes are made. I am not at all prepared to say whether, owing to this calamity which has visited Ireland, that it would be unwise under certain restric tions, and under certain guarantees for the repayment of the advances, to make such loans.—(Cheers from Lord George Beutinck.) But the extent and encouragement which the Noble Lord proposes to give, will, I believe, not be so beneficial to the country, atid to the districts through which the lines would pass, as he anticipates ; and, moreover, will not give such tall gible security as we have a right to expect. The only security that you have is, in cases of default, the seizure of the railway. —(Cheers.) If the shareholders in those lines to which ad vances have been made refuse to contribute their share of the money borrowed, or the interest upon it, you have no other option than to take possession of the railway, and finish it at the public expense ( Hear) —or in a case of absolute failure, you have no remedy against the shareholders. The remedy is not against the shareholders, bat against the old iron rails.—( Laughter. ) In speaking thus, lam stating the views which I have long held. lam not adverse to the occasional application of capital for the purpose of encouraging enterprise both in this country and in Ireland.—(Cheers.) What 1 sincerely deprecate is such supposed encouragement as shall prevent individual enterprise, and those who ought to rest upon individual enterprise, by such an interference as shall pa ralyse that enterprise, by rendering it valueless, and conse quently inoperative, as I think the advance which any such sum as that proposed by the Government, whose interference would be carried to some extent as to its application, could not have any other effect than that of paralysing individual enterprise. Sir, I know the Noble Lord will say that my estimate is incorrect; that 7,003,0001. will be required, independently of the capital proposed to be expended by his measure for the relief of the distress in Ireland, under the powers of the Bill already passed by this House, as his measure, by finding employment for the people, will reduce the necessity of making such large advances. Now, admitting in the first place, the men who will be employed are generally Irishmen, and not Englishmen from this country, yet I greatly doubt whether the passing of the Bill of the Noble Lord would immediately diminish that expenditure which will be absolutely necessary for the relief of the destitue. Now I hold in my hand a map of the railways which have received the sanction of Parliament, of those which have been completed, and of those in the course of execution. By this map it avpears that it verifies the observation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer who, speaking generally, said that railways were sanctioned by Parliament mainly for the east coast. I only fiad two, of com paratively small extent, passing to the westward. The first is from Sligo to the Shannon, the capital of which is, I think, 100,0001; and the second from Limerick, through Killaloe to Ennis, the capital of which was 300,000/. But, with respect to the west, there are no Bills for the construction of railways through it, except one in the county of Clare; nor in Donegal, Roscommon, Leitrim, Sligo (with the exception of that small railway for which the estimate was 100,0001.), Mayo, Galway, Clare (with the exception of the railway from Limerick to Ennis), and through a great part of the county of Limerick. But no provision would be made for the employment of the destitute persons in the immediate neighbourhood of the line which would be made. In the returns read the other evening by the lion. Gentleman, it appeared that the persons who would be employed on railways were those residing in the im mediate neighbourhood of the lines. If that be so, first of all, the removal of men from Connaught to work at the lines would take him away from his family, and that would be a great misfortune, if they numbered as many as ten. That is no small evil. Who would provide far their sustenance during his absence? Certainly it would not do away with demands on the Government from the west, which would still be heavy notwith ' standing the employment which would be given under the Noble Lori's Bill. I was saying that I have for a long period enter tamed sincere doubts whether you might not carry Govern ment interference too far, so far as to injure commercial enter prise. Now, I wish the House could be fully aware of the history of the inland navigation of Ireland. Inland navigation in Ireland was promoted and encouraged by the Government. It is necessary that I should refer to this point, although I may trespass a short time longer on the attention of the House, and I thank the House for the attention with which it has listened to me.—(Loud cheers.) I wish to present to the House the contrast between enterprise encouraged and fostered by the Government, and enterprise undertaken under every difficulty and discouragement, and what was taken for individual gain by individual enterprise. The Irish Parliament greatly encouraged and fostered inland navigation. What were the grounds on which public aid was granted? Exactly the same on which we are asked to give the enormous public aid sought by this Bill.—( Loud cheers.) By the 23d of George 11., a corporation was ap pointed to carry on inland n:ivigation. What was intended to be done? T. take a canal directly across Ireland, in the con fident hope that the returns would be most enormous—so enor mous that the prosperity of Ireland would be promoted, and it would have been most beneficial if it had been left in the hands of individual shareholders. By this Act of Parliament it was stated " that these works of inland navigation, being for the public benefit, by encouraging tillage, and giving employ ment to the poor, it is fit and reasonable that they should be carried on at the charge of the kingdom, by grants from the public funds " In 1787, then, it was found that the works had progressed so badly, that it was decided that they would not ultimately prove advantageous to the company. It was said that the system of granting public money was perilous and abortive. The officers were appointed under that Act at salaries as large as 5001. to superintend and control the works, but the result of their management was that they made two canals running parallel to each other.—( Hear, and laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer re ferred to the wo canals—the Royal and the Great Canal, the original estimate for the first of which was, I think, 180,000/. The circumstances of the canal caused an inquiry to be made in 1811. Now what was the position in whicn this canal, sup ported and fostered by public money, was found ? Why we found that 186,0001. of the public money had been granted, though the original capital was stated to be only 19,t,00.3/. ( Hear, hear.) And while the Government had advanced 186,0001., it appeared that 182.000/., had been expended otherwise. The increase was 15,0001., while the mainte nance of the permanent works was 11,000/., leaving only 4,000/. to cover the whole debt and expenditure of the corn pany.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") This was a work which was stated at the time to be a great national undertaking, yet the unfortunate results I have given are the fruits of the company being, fostered by the Government. The company to which I have referred, at the very time it was in this state, made dividends without any profits, and even when they were obliged to pay not only the interest on their debt, but also their present expenses, by fresh loans.—( Hear, hear.) The same results have been shown in the case of the Caledonian Canal as what I have shown in the present case. Both the Caledonian as well as the Royal Canals were great national undertakings, yet at the very time 1 have referred to, the latter company told me, as I was then Secretary of Ireland, that unless they could get 100,0001. more, their whole affairs would go to ruin.—(liear,hear. ) Parliament granted the canal 50,0001. more, which was added to the 183,0001., making a total sum advanced of 232,0001.—(Cries of " Hear, hear")—but what is the present position of the company I cannot say ; but since then I trust its affairs have been under better manage went. This is the result of Government interference.— ( Hear, hear.) Sir, I cannot leave this part of the subject without adverting to what has appeared in the admirable re port of the late Mr. Drummond, in much of which I agree, anticipating as it did many of the improvements and suggestions since made in that report, in which is given the results of the Government interference in the Royal Canal. There is also an account of the indomitable efforts and enterprise of one indi vidual within the last twenty years in supplying all the south, the south-west, and many other parts of Ireland, with means of internal communication. 'I his account affords a contrast be tween the results of a scheme like the present under considera tion, fostered by the Government, and those of individual en terprise. The one to which I refer, is the establishment of a regular system of cars between the provincial towns of Ireland. The Hon. Member road an extract from the report in question. It set out with stating, that about twenty years ago, while there were coaches in a f ew of the leading roads ieu of ce. Ireland, the cross-roads and sm all towns ha d no corve_t up— an The country was in this st ate until an individualtook individual who had no advantages from connexion with the country—no great capital or influence. f He was a foreigner — an Italian, a native of Milan, who cau . not even sp with one eak the language of the country. Signor Biancon tried first car, which he star ted between Clonmel and t Clare. H his He had no thing but his indu str y and inte g rity to depend onfot• success— but these were sufficie nt, for he soon increased number of cars until he had established them all over the province of Munster. From th nee he extended them into Leitrim and Sligo, and throughout Connaught generally, until they occu pied all the north-west parts of the kingdom. He had now ninety-four public conveyances, and the distance which they travelled exceeded three thousand miles.—(Cheers.) These results had been achieved in districts which were the foci c of agrarian disturbance in distric t s w here life and property were n ot secure, where party processions and religiousl feelings o i ran high. Notwithstanding this state of things, M. n had carried out his system everywhere without hindrance cr have got no money. -Y , -- isturbance, and was popular wherever he went. In the face 10,000, 000 !. ital is not in- d . a few weeks since. —(Cheers ). If these r railways are what is the reason that British ca so beneficial, them of the greatest difficulties had individual enterprise succeeded ; he established himself securely in those foci of agrarian outrage ?--(Cheers. ) The Hon. Member for Shrews vested i burythe shareholders of y thatpolitical considerations haveoverwhelmed the or where life and property were not secure, and when there was , dinarsy:cosmmercial considerations, and that every discouragement to the enterprise in which he had em barked. His confidence had not been abused. B ' .t and lrelan . find a great difficulty in obtaining possession of the land, le consequence of the complicated nature - of simplify the active exertions he had succeeded, and popular with all classes of the eople.2( y ju.. titles to land in that country.—the title to the . land. Then I would say, H as e n a o r, t h on ea ly r. rfe il b i u s t , of obtaining the continued the Right Hon. Baron Pet, is a contrast to the cases means of It has been proved that it is to the interest of the landowner s to give their lan d for the p ur p ose of makin g that have gone before t o th e sc h emes f ostered b y G overnment these support. By the exerti on o f i n di v id ua l enterpr i se , thi s railways, and .I meet that objection of the great di`liculties the Irish co mpanies; have to contend with in obtaining possession foreigner, who did not understand the language of the country, had thus carried out this great means of internal communication. Exert yourselves in the same way, and you will add to the value of your landed property, and advance the interests and the hap piness of the people.—( Hear, hear.) If you will imitate the example set you by this foreigner, and contrast it with the examples of the schemes fostered by the Leeislat ere—if you will forget your religious diffe- - T.7;-:,,5 , rences, and let a sense of the overwhelming ..,.---.- visitation under which your countty is truly suffering, impress v :.. - I t , on your minds—if you devote all your exertions' to miti g a te ~4 r this calamity, and to improve the social circumstances of the millions dependent on you, not only for their present but their future welfare, it is my firm babel that you will do more to promote the interests and happiness of your native land, than if, abandoning yourselves to misery and regret, and despair, you placed your confidence iu Government grants, and trusted in your difficulties to Government aid. (The Right Hon. Baronet sat down amidst loud and general cheering.) Lord G. BENTINCK rose amidst loud cries of "Divide, divide." He said that the Right Honourable Baronet's only stock argument appeared to be M. Bianconi.—(Hear, hear.) They stood as the stock in trade of the Right Hon. Gentle man. He was sure that it was in the recollection of every gentleman in that House that, when in the year 1839, the Government of Lord Melbourne proposed a scheme for as sisting railways in Ireland, the Right Hon. Gentleman gave word for word what he (Lord G. Bentinek) had heard during the last half hour, and which were the arguments he then used against the Goverment of that day. If private enter prise, said the Right Hon. Gentleman, were to take its course, they would have railways just as well and flourishing as they had their private cars. But seven years had since elapsed, and what had been the result? Why, whilst in this country they had 2,600 miles of railway, in Belgium there were only 375 miles of railway completed. In Austria and Germany they had 3,000 miles of railway, and in the United States of Ame• rica they had 3,300 miles of railway. In Ireland, where en terprise had been left unaided by the Government—(lmmense cheering)—they had about 123 miles of railway. Would the House listen to the heavy policy of the Right Hon. Baronet? They were well aware—although many might not be of his opinion that as the Government aid had succeeded in Belgium, as Government aid had succeeded in Austria and Germany, as Government aid had succeeded in the United States of America, 'that he would call the aid of Government for the benefit of Ireland, and not to supersede private enterprise—(Cheers)—for that be never proposed to do. The very spirit, the very principle of the Bill was, that it should not supersede private enterprise, but that Govern ment should come in to aid it, to stimulate it.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had entered at great length on the question of the finances of the country, and thus, as he (Lord Geo. Bentinck) imagined, was proceeding to show them how he (Lord Geo. Bentinck) would by his proposition inflict a heavy tax upon the country. He had listened long and patiently, but he could not gather from the Right Hon. Gen tleman how it was that a single tax, or a single burden of any description, would be imposed on the country by his proposition. The Right Hon. Gentleman had told them that they would require seven millions sterling for the relief of Ireland, and that for such a purpose some imposition must be forced on the country. The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed entirely to forget that seven millions was to be paid for unproductive works.—( Cheers.) It was to be paid for the feeding of the people of Ireland without any return, and he (Lord G. Bentinck) proposed against his pro position to spend four millions sterling of money to be raised upon the credit of the Government, to which two other millions would be raised by share capital stimulated by the aid of the Government, and of that six millions he was prepared to show that not one-fourth'or one-half, but two-thirds, would be ex pended in labour. So that out of the seven millions which the Right Hon. Gentleman proposes as the sum which it would be necessary to raise to maintain the people of Ireland, he had a right so say that he would deduct four millions by his scheme. Then the Right Hon. Gentleman intimated to the House that the Exchequer-bills were just wavering between a pre mium and depreciation, and it was upon the principle that they would have to raise the price of Exchequer-bills, the Right Hon. Gentleman showed his caution and prudence, for he forgot to tell the House to what extent the interest of the Ex chequer-bills would have to be raised. He was too prudent to tell them to what extent the raising of the four millions would affect them, because it was not a question with the House and country how much the four millions would cause the funds to fall, or how much the raising of these four millions would make the rates of premium on Exchequer-bills, but how much the raising of those four millions would reduce the premium of Exchequer-bills. The Right. Hon. Gentle tleman prudently forebore from telling the House to what ex tent the raising of these four millions sterling would throw down the funds, and the rate of premium of the Exchequer bills. He meant to say that it would reduce the premium of Exchequer-hills to the same extent, but whether it would re duce them one farthing per cent., or one halfpenny per cent., it was impossible to say. But they would suppose that the Right Hon. Gentleman expected that the raising of the four millions sterling to be expended in profitable employment in this country would cause the funds to fall to 85, and thus raise the interest of money to about 3% per cent., and that they would have in consequence to raise the interest of Ex chequer-bills t,., per cent., what would the cost to the country amount to? 'Counting that upon the whole 27,000,000 of Ex chequer-bills, they would not expend 270,0001. per annum; and what did they hear last night from the Hon. Gentleman the Chancel or of the Exchequer? That their staff alone, the maintainite , of their army of 14,587 men, cost 78,000/. per month. The Hon. Gentleman, shrinking from the dread of incurring on the country the necessity of paying 270,000/. a year more for Exchequer -bills, thought nothing of 78,0001. per month to be paid under the plan he advocated and sup ported for the maintenance of this idle staff—not of destitute shareholders—and he certainly knew that they were not a party of destitute poor.—(Hear, hear.) The whole of this attack was for what the Right Hon. Gentleman called the non-govern ment of Ireland ; but he would say whether those reports were not spread for the credit of themselves. He was aware that this relief had been granted, but he was not at all aware that the Right Hon. Gentleman now at the head of Irish affairs was Secretary for Ireland in the year 1789.—(Laughter.) Nor did he at all understand how the Royal Canal, which was begun in 1788, could in any way affect that report. This was an inference which he drew from the circumstances, and there fore, it was that he warned the House of the tenor of that report. It should be recollected that this was a parallel case, and that in the borrowing of the 4,000,000/. he had stated a case to the House which would amply repay it for the advancement of the money. The Noble Lord then read a series of extracts to show his position, and to show what was the position of the several individuals who were disposed for the revival of the company. He was quite aware that there was much of energy and plausibility in the proposal of the Right (Hon. Gentleman. But the Right Hon. Gentleman, in the conclusion of his speech, had said he would allow that these railways would be of use to Ireland. But what was the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman T—why, that this would be the wiser measure. This was the difficulty in the way of an adjustment for the affairs of Ireland. The grant was made in 1781, and the canal was only begun in 1789. He stated this, not for the sake of argument, but because he was anxious that the difficulties under which the Government was placed should be done away with, and because he wished to answer the arguments of the Hon. Member for Stamford, and because he felt that the great relief was to be obtained by turn ing other railways to the natural source. He was quite aware that there was a great difficulty, but yet that difficulty ought to be met. His great object was to extend railways to Galway, so as to afford plenty of employment for the fishermen. It appeared by the returns that upwards of 15,0001. per mile had been expended, and that had been within the last four years. The Commissioners had made a re p or t on th e 23d J une, stating these circumstances, in which it was shown that these data were unsatisfactory. Then, as to the machinery, he confessed that it was singularly defective, and if it were proceeded in he should feel it his duty to bring the matter before the Legislature. He was only surprised that the cumbrousness of the machinery should have se interfered with its working, for he had hoped that the Hon. Member for Kilkenny would have cleared up this difficulty, for he firmly believed that from a quarter to a half of the population of Ire.. land would be thrown into destitution unless their wants were provided for. This point had been mooted during the last seven years, and its resolution affected the whole of the popu lation of Ireland, and had, in fact, produced a social revolution. The great difficulty appeared to be to make this loan, but from, the financial statement that had been made by his Right Hon. Friend, he did not anticipate any objection to his own projects It was, however, evident that the formation of the se ra il way , would lead to the consumption of excisable articles. He wad not aware of the precise position in which the two countries stood, but of this he was assured that from 6 0 0,000/. to 700,000/. would be added to the expenditure of the country: .1 nat exp..)sition heti now rini the gauntlet of three Chancellors 00 the Eac, ever and a late Pr;me Minister, and he thought, therefor el that they might take it for granted that no man in that House we* prepared to oppose it. They might, therefore, conslder the propos!: tion of the Bight Hon. Gentleman to be this—to prevent the iniditi o ei of 650,0001. to the revenue of the country without the imposition of' any new tax whatsoever. The Right lion. Ger:Hely:an followed in th track of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and confirmed his statemea that there were no railways in Ireland excepting on the eastere coast lm a t ts did el 11 4 What, no railways , xcepting en the eastern co as t, where, as th exchequer or the xchequer assured them, th ere was no distress ',+ It might be true that the completed railways, an d those now ut process of construction, were chiefly en the eastern coast, the not occur to the Right Hon. Gentleman that perhaps of distress might be owing to the fact of railways being already coi / strutted there ? There remained sum s li nes to COltstruct on that pa ' - of the country, as seventy miles of railway from Dubli n t o Wexfor i seventy or seventy-five miles from Drogheda to Portadown, thirty e forty miles from Belfast to Nav an an d Coleraine --these lines all ; i mained to be constructed on the eastern coast ; the other railwa i which yet remained to be c ons t ructed extended north-west, soul. s west, and due west, and there it was universally admitted that t sl greatest distress prevailed. What part of Ireland had slaw i, a blacker picture Of misery than the county of C..rk ? and yet to te city of Cork no less than four railways diverged. There was a other railway to Athlone—there was a Bill before Parliament, whi 5 he was informed was sure to pass, as it was ul.opposed—a Bill ire, Athlone to Galway and Roscommon. Now, his Bill not only pit vided for the Acts already obtained, but for those also whteh were be afterwards obtained. There was also a branch line from Dublin ; Mull:near, and a Bill bad been obtained last year to Sligo, the Act pa: ' ing without opposition, but from the incompetency of the parties •!, raise the money the railway was abandoned. Ile was sure th, if the Bill he had had the honour of intreduci , to the House were passed, the line to Sligo wot aga n be brought before Parliament and carried.—(Hear, heal Then they would have railways to every part of Ireland ; On would be no county in Ireland which would not be traversed by C railway. 'l lie Right Hon. Gentleman tom the House that the would he great difficulty in raising the 4,000,0001. sterling per arms - without lowering the funds. Raising 4,000,000/.1 Why, _i_n_!o?".. e l war, they had for many years raised not less than li*oo!) . ,o . o ,t og iii annum, but the thought might have occurred ° to i fr lug! deposits shut up in the Court of Chancery, , waitingthe next five ye. Baronet that last year there was no less than lio,oof,ororstseirnling, to pass through Parliament, and oo li com llPlTa ti t on wo o l f ild th ere the 93, Hinds ait d t ? i J u Whyf t ' , i1,„2121i,e0h00,0h0.0,11. alreadywotilel breeceex,,p;dethluep.,,, A t c h t, .. the operation of this t retence, then, was there fors aying th following' ye ar . 97 ' Wha where P it was calculated there was an army In a country like this, could not raise 4,000,0001. for the impros . the month of December, saving of 50,008,0001., theylloan foods r w t 1845, the men ted when 20,000,0001. were raised for t t' to any g extent affec Indian slaves. tof real without owering the funds ? The funds were r . emancipa • tion of the Rest slaves. The Right Hon. Bator i said, a lso, that private enterprise , even when supported by the 1! . fe of Government , had always failed in Ireland. lie wot . l ,l e n ne him to tax hie ineinory, and to refer to the years between hf and ls2B (and lie would find a report on the subject on the table ti the House), when ate outlay of 140,0001. was made is tau counties ! like Galway, Mayo, Cork, and K erry, and th% revenue is t h ese towns alone had rise n to spent 11,0001 per annu $ It was said Government had something h half upon the Caledonian Can a l, and the invcstmenat hillaidlli p o r n o a v i ed id s . dead loss to the State. But what was the Cause of its proving a dee loss? Why, because Government did not go upon the principle f , • giving assistance to private enterprise, but acted upon the princio of speculating on their own accouut. By the measure, however,l4 fore the house, no Such attempt would be made, but it would rath , g w ci i upon eernel be Member a s le p fiors passed, principle inc• stimulating ultdo ld etai llpe them ol:a 5 1; i eo r l, i vo y o a od t e a myenterprise. agoo. tll, Irish lieil Lincoln l e h a o c,:) , 1 1 . that fTh railway tthis isi lße.i i under his management, 7,000 of whom would be plat , on the Belfast, Drogheda, and Navan line. Now, wt.... , was the state of that country? Why, in a letter he k+ received from the daughter of the Protestant Bishop ;- Neath, he had a description of a family living in Cavan. The wom ; of the house was represented, just after child-birth, as lying dead,', child, some six years of age, lying dead by her side, the father, wt 5' nothing but a shirt on, lying dead in the straw, and the rats erawli t over him—all ef whom had died from starvation. But this w t only a instigated sketch of the picture ; and yet, if this Bill we t carried, 70,000 men eonld be at once put into employment in th e very town. The letter, moreover, stated that numbers of the peoi e died of starvation, and that, in the opinion of the writer, the m, r sure of the Noble Lord was the only measure propose 3 hi Parliament calculated to meet the emergency of the e l :i fr The Noble Lord then read a number of other letters from Irsl;end e similar import and all expressing-their opinion that the pro , ,arsal k the Noble Lord was the only beneficial one which had as yet tat i propounded to the House. He offered to the House a measure '. which he wanted a clear stage and no favour —cue which vast! shaped to further private interest or public patronage. He s , desirous to answer the arguments brought forward by Hut Chancel tii of the Exchequer (who, he regretted, had left tb:s Hoc 0, - oin indispositivu), but in, consequence of the Often% of t 1 [on. Friend was found the Earl of the house Lrd of guar the Poor to collect rrowing of t they wer• capable 0, ners were a d they then nmissioners was bound m to doubt been much y. ideration of ;pion Corn that Corn- f a Select iltivation of 1.1f..T in a Bill sposition of .ntees from 11 absentees 11 annuities copy of the t. \Varner's Ordnance. LAWS. the gentle the naviga- aright, and ver the list he seaports ye satisfae audidate for .ituted. _ astitution of n Alembers d would the lire into the own, there : the con- On these f the HOD. le with him, ittee Was & :e-President Commutes, Id not object Umber for to for Alan. such a thing Committee. al petitions ee was from ! petitioners on. Member In fact they repealed.- - iterest being he hoped as de would be of the Hon• the country )n had been pon the first that op ut, having Right Hon. the recoil. mover had on his being ced on that iubt that the if the Cotn- Id assure the inquiry. if the Hon• for© one of ie discussion, address one more than ial pursuits, •reation that his question. tubers of the ,ed as tieing persons who laws,:whet• persons who night hear. If ember who dividing th° so, ev en if ist he wad . for Bostou of the goo; is, as be is ad to 10 Place ad Vfernber that through the; iber differed find of cours, st. stood that he placing on against the son why the satisfactorl inating these Committee T. vision, hoW idrawn. the Select r. rd Douglass dr. Thorns , ' r G. Clerk, L relief coni. counties cf Sure for fa- BY THE w attention the Board tolk place t ent in not knovr ) admit such was a most ence of an upon an mrhood 283 men' .nt. There name Wa s Toned by a 'he incident officers, that the labourers, formation He con ?mber ap h he had real sym ust say it in pro of t h a t hear.) al means s to 12 suit / had Many rators of y. that on lad taken napatbise actu ally ions and conduct efore be- Member Ireland rotection ey were deepest answer nourable i t , but ciple on ?et that portant , emedieil greater i n the • core" tl. Jie for the 1 it as Ly lion. the Cul saion of o wrote seaped , rture to 10 from an the pre&eut 1 these by tai • • r THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 17, 1F47 ), t ,): '4l. ■ I