The Sun. — London, England, 1840-02-05 00:00:00

EVENING EDIT I ON . ......_, _ county, among whom, he understood, were persons of all political parties. Mr. Pare had called up in him the day after his name had been brought before their Lord ships, in consequence of a summons which he had given hint He (the Marquis of Normanby) had put to him these questions, arising out of that discussion. The first was whether he was present at a meeting of Socialists on any occasion, when the question was the existence of a God, and whether also he had heard the circumstance' alluded to by the Right Rev. Prelate, viz.—the question put as to the responsibility of the murderer of the late Lard Norburv, when the answer given was, that such person was not responsible, and to each of these inquiries, Mr. Pare gave a distinct and specific denial. But he (the Marquis of Normanby) had told him that his answers to these questions, though clearly removing the impute tation cast upon him reapectine them, would not, he con ceived, influence his decision' on the ultimate question, whether a person who during the time he had filled the ( )Mee of Superintendent Registrar had also taken the office of Vice President of such an Association as that, was a proper person to be continued in it. He had told him also it was not necessary then to enter into any question as to speculative opinions, but he believed it would not be denied their system would overthrow the frame work of society. But putting out of view all these considerations, he still thought that a person who had so ostensibly put himself forward in such proceedings was not a proper per - ,on to be patronized by those whose business and determination it Was to maintain the existing order of things, and that he only postponed his decision on the subject till he had given him an opportunity of answering those particular imputa tions which were thrown out on that occasion. Now, with respect to the clergymen, all their Lordships who were present when the Right Reverend Pre late had first alluded to him, would imagine thin person was a retiring Minister of the Gospel, who came unwillingly forward, but who had felt it his duty to watch in secret what was going on, and felt that it would be utter destruction to him to notify the proceedings on that occasion. What would their Lordships say when he told them this Clergyman was the very opponent of Mr. Mur phy, the lecturer, on that occasion ? What would their Lordships say when further informed, that at the time the preliminaries of the meeting for discussion between Mr. Foy (for that was the name of the Clergyman) and Mr. Murphy was arranged, Mr. Pare was invited by both par ties to take the chair ? and he therefore said again that this Clergyman had not done his duty in taking any part on that occasion, and also in not informing his diocesan or the Government upon the subject, which would have led to the immediate consideration of Mr. Pate's fitness for hi s office. He would add, that Mr. Pare was thanked by Mr. F oy f or his conduct upon the occasion, and that be (the Marquis of Normanby) was not defending the conduct of Mr. Pare, which he thought, holding the office which he did, was very improper. When he had stated that he conceived the Right Rev. Prelate was on Several particulars much misinformed, he had also stated, and as appeared most correctly, that if their Lordships at once gave credence to all the details laid before them, they would not act with due prudence. The Right Rev. Prelate had stated the Government ought to- be aware of these publications because they were stamped, and then be had afterwards stated he had never I seen any of these publications, and that they were not stamped.—(« Hear, hear," from the Bishop of Exeter.) 1 The Right Rev. Prelate would have an opportunity pre sently of explaining for what other purpose papers went to the Stamp-office ; but he did say, even upon the docu ments placed in bis hands by Mr. Pare for his vindica tion, they were such as called for the very serious atten tion of the Government. (The Noble Marquis then read and commented upon some extracts from those docu ments, and proceeded to say.) He was very careful in any extracts which he read not to shock their Lordships by a repetition of the language which he thought had been very unnecessarily intruded upon them—( Hear, hear, hear)-- but what he had read showed sufficiently the principles of the Society were such as to prevent any member of it being employed by a Government determined to maintain existing institutions. With respect to the par ticular Institution to which the Right Rev. Prelate had alluded, and the doctrin es w hi c h h e stated i t professed, all that he could say was, that he hoped the Magistrates would act on the advice stated by the Noble Duke to have been given by him to the county which had the good fortune to possess him as Lord Lieutenant. Certainly such doc trines as those mentioned by the Right Rev. Prelate were illegal, and the Government would act against them. Now, with respect to the present state of the Society, the Right Rev. Prelate bad said, and he hoped erroneously, that it had lately much increased. It had been a great length of time in existence, but the Right Rev. Prelate appeared to have taken for his authority the beasts of the disciples of the Society. He found it stated in the New Moral Woad, that, as long back as 1836, Mr. Owen, in his address to King William the Fourth, had stated that old prejudices were then tottering, previous to their final de struction ; and, language as sanguine as that was used in a paper which was put into his hand yesterday, which was called a " Manifesto of their Principles," in which Mr. Owen stated the great encouragement he had received at various periods of his life, and the great intimacy he had enjoyed with the late Sir Robert Pe e l, an d s t ate d, t h at on one occasion, when he was discussing his doctrines with him, and while the present Sir Robert was engaged with his companions, his father had said, " Robert does not yet understand these extensive combinations—see if you can niakw any impression on him after dinner." But Mr. Owen found that the present Sir Robert was not able to be convinced upon a subject so far beyond his then prac tical knowledge.—( Laughter.) Ttie Noble Lord then referred to a publication, entitled " The Abomination of Socialism Exposed," which he recommended to their Lordships—which, he said, he had been much struck with, but could not find, as it professed, that the quota tion; from the New Moral World tallied with that work. From Mr. Barker, who was an iniefaiigable lecturer against Socialism, they derived the consolation that So cialism was not upon the increase ; and all he could say was, that, from all the observations he had made, and the iuquiries he had instituted, he believed that in London Socialism was decidedly on the decrease. He understood that within the last few days, in consequence of the motion of the Right Rev. Prelate, the meetings were more nume rously attended, but he believed that on the whole So cialism was on the decrease in London.--( Hear, hear.) When, therefore, the Right Rev. Prelate took credit to himself for checking these principles, he (Lord Normanby) must be allowed to say, that, in his humble opinion, in stead of checking he had increased them. He had under stood that letters had been received from an individual at Manchester since the Right Rev. Prelate had brought for ward the subject in that House, requesting to be furnished with all the tracts that had been issued by the So cialists' society, as he expected that there would be a very great demand for them, in consequence of the motion of the Bishop of Exeter.—( Hear.) He (Lord Normanby) had received from an individual he would nut name, many tracts published by the Society which contained the most blasphemous language. Imme diately upon receipt of these pamphlets, he laid them be fore the Law-officers of the Crown, and they were at the present moment under the consideration of fee Govern ment.—( hear.) This, he could assure their Lordships, was the first official information he had received of publica tions of this kind. Looking at all the circumstances together, bearing in mind the whole of the statements that had been made by the Right Rev. Prelate, he thought that he had made no special ground for the extraordinery interference, on the part of th e i r L or d s hi ps, wh i ch he asked, and he (the Marquis of Normanby) would put it to their Lordships whether they thought any public good would be accomplished by an inquiry before a Committee. He trusted, in conclusion, that their Lordships would leave this case to be dealt with according to law. If these parties bad violated the law, then they would be dealt with accordingly ; but if they had not, any inquiry upon the subject would have no other effect than to give pub licity to doctrines that were highly objectionable.— ( Hear, hear. ) The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said it was not his inteutian to enter at any length into' the discussion of this question, at that late hour of the night, as he was sensible that nothing he could say would add force to the very clear and excellent statement which had been made by his Right Rev. Friend, but he should think himself wanting in his duty to that House, if he suffered that op portunity to pass without expressing his thanks to the Right Rev. Prelate, for the course he had pursued. He thought that he was entitled to the thanks of the country, for the exposure he had made of the doctrines of those who profess Socialist principles. He (the Archbishop of Canterbury) was ready to admit that the number of Socialists was small, as compared with the population of the country ; but he would ask, were their numbers small when compared with what they were a few years aeo ? At that time the indi vidual whose name had been so frequently men tioned that evening, entertained the same opinion as he did at present, but he did not go so far as he did now to develope them.—( Hear, hear.) The doctrines he now professed went a great way to the total subversion of society. At first his doctrines were considered of so ex traordinary a nature that it was thcught impossible they could be carried into execution, but what was the fact at present? Why, that this speculative enthusiast was at the head of an association, formidable, not for its num bers, but for the principles it professed—principles cal culated to throw a moral pestilence over the whole land. --( Hear, hear.) Secietie, were now established in every Principal town in the kingdom, which had money at their command to erect buildings in which they might propound their pernicious doctrines. They had also mis sionaries at their command, who went all over the country disseminating their pernicious tenets, and not only that they had a general congress of all their lecturers, in order that they might give an account of what had taken place in the different parts of the country in which they had been. When such had been the p rogress of this sect, that associations such as he had adverted to had been esta blished in the course of a few years—when such progress had been made, how was it possible that they could have any security against its further extension, more especially when they con• idercd the doctrines which they maintained, and when they considered that its missionaries were active and, in many instances, intelligent persons? The doctrines broached by these Associations were of the most pernicious tendency, and calculated to produce the worst effects in the minds of the unlearned and i g norant. Any person joining those S oc i et i es were lost to all those feelings which held society together, namely, happiness in this life and a re ward for good works hereafter.—( Hear, hear.) He was struck with horror when he considered the rapid progress that Socialism had made, for rapid he must consider its progress to be, when $,OOO individuals had petitioned from Birmingham in its favour. What was the prevention for this? Why, the duo execution of the law; and he thought that the Noble Marquis who had stated that he had adopted that course, was entitled to the thanks of the country for having done so, but at the same time he must be allowed to differ from him when he stated that h e thought the publicity of this matter did more harm than good. He could not agree with that, because he thought the exp inure of the doctrines would do great good, and tend to enlighten the eyes of the people to the absurdity of them ; but then that exposure must be followed up by the due execution of the law. lie believed that the feeling of the country would go with the Government in their attempts to put down these Societies. With respect to the for bearance hitherto exercised, if the Government had no official information then they had good reason for their for- I bearance ; but it might be carried too far. In conclusion he thought that the Right Rev. Prelate was entitlesl to their Lordships' thanks and those of the cont./ ry for bring ing forward his motion.—( Hear. ) The Bishop of LL AND AFF observed that at the meeting at Birmingham, which was presided over by Mr. Pare, the Superintendent- Registrar, the most horrible doctrines had been broached. The Marquis of NO R MANB Y made a few observa tions in explanation, which were inaudible in the gallery. Lord MELBOURNE would not have troubled the House with any observations upon that occasion, but that allusion had been made to him in the course of the debate, The Right Rev. Prelate had read a letter of his for the purpose of making a charge against the Government. N ow I hat let ter only acknowledged that he (Lord M.) received a letter from a clergyman enclosing a pamphlet of Mr. Owen's. It was his usual course as a matter of courtesy to acknowledge the receipt of letters addressed to him. But if he acted indiscreetly in introducing Mr. Owen at Court, he did not act so in confining his answer to the clergyman to a mere acknowledgment. For if he had answered otherwise, his answer might be made use of by his political opponents. ( Hear, and a laugh.) He thought it would be only discreet and prudent to answer all such correspondence in a similar manner.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He bad already stated his opinion that the doctrines promulgated by those people (the Socialists) were exceedingly dangerous, and deserved the highest attention on the part of the Govern ment. In this discussion the Right Rev. Prelate had the advantage of him, as he could not argue the matter with out seeming to countenance the opinions of those men. Those opinions, in respect to religion, were impious and pernicious. In other respects they were highly immoral and mischievous. But he could hardly say that they were illegal. As to the doctrine of the " necessity of human action," that was held not by Mr. Owen and his followers alone, but by a class of religious Christians of superior devotion. He did not know how that doctrine was recoil eileable with responsibility. That was a metaphysical dif ficulty which he could never understand. As to the state ment of the Socialists, that the people were all in misery, and that nothing but their adoption of Mr. Owen's sys tom could save them—that was said by every one who had a new system to recommend, or a favourite doctrine to pro mulgate. Mr. Attwood took up the question of the cur , rency, on which he held peculiar views, and he told the people that they were sunk in misery, from which they could be relieved only by adopting his plans. Mr. Oastler told the people also, that they were in profound misery, occasioned by the amendment of the Poor-laws ; and that they were justified in having recourse to any means, for the purpose of compelling th e Legislature to alter the system. It was, in fact, the great evil of the day, that people sat down and concocted a plan of their own, which they wished to force upon the country as the only remedy for all evils and all abuses, and would stop at nothing to carry their opinions into practice. He believed the opinions of the Socialists to be highly dangerous, but he doubted the propriety of the course which their Lordships were taking. He thought with his Noble Friend, the Secretary of State, that they were giving the greatest encouragement to this system, by sending up the address. Ile was charged with having done great mischief by introducing Mr. Owen to Court, but their Lordships were about to introduce him to Court a second time—( Laughter)—and in a manner which would give him much greater and stronger encourage ' ment. He (Lord M.) had perhaps been indiscreet in being the person to introduce him, and he was sorry for having done so. But those people were now calling for inquiry into their views, and their Lordships were exactly meet ing their aims. If, by inquiry, their Lordships meant that the Government should keep its eye upon them, very well. But if they meant that a Commission should issue —(No, no, from the Opposition) —there was nothing the So cialists would desire more than an opportunity of giving their opinions publicly in an authenticated form. He thought that the course which their Lordships were pur suing was only giving a mischievous importance to the Society. But after the debate which had already taken place, he would not divide the House if the Right Rev. Prelate was disposed to press, his motion . The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that although much had been said about the notoriety of Socialism, he had heard nothing at all about it until a letter was sent to him requesting him to present a petition on the subject :)f Mr. Owen's introduction to the Queen. He declined to present that petition, because he knew nothing of the sub ject; but books were afterwards sent to him, from which he learned what Socialism was, and he could answer for it that the statements of the Right Rev. Prelate were not at all exaggerated.—( Hear, hear.) As the Lord Lieu tenant of the county in which he resided, he had thought 't his duty to make inquiries, and he found that there was established a large Socialist Institution, for which 500 acres of land had been purchased-4 Hear, hear.) He found that there was a great deal in their proceedings of which the law could not take notice ; but there in eras a great deal which called f or a tt en ti on their bias- phemies and their public revilings of the religion of the land—indeed of all religion. He held in his hand a peti tion from the Magistrates of the county, from which it ap peared that matters had gone beyond the point at which you could say that nothing should be done, on the ground that those proceedings were beneath notice. Something more must be done. The people must be made to under stand that the notice of the Legislature had been brought to their institutions, and that they looked upon them other wise than with favour.—( Hear.) They should under stand that wherever a breach of the law took place, it should be punished.—(Cries of " Hear.") When that was understood throughout the county, the public peace would be less disturbed, and public decency would he less outraged by the acts of those institutions. He was perfectly satisfied, if this motion were allowed to pass, to let the matter remain in the hands of the Government, to whom he would promise every assistance in his power, by making inquiries in the county of which he was Lord- Lieutenant.-_( Hear, hear. ) The Marquis L ANS D 0 WNE would not oppose the motion on the ground stated by the Noble Duke. lie thought that the discussion had come to that pass, that it would operate mischievously throughout the country, if it should be supposed that those matters had been brought under the attention of the Legisla ture, and that a deaf ear had been turned to them, more especially if there were people capable of asserting that the Government turned an indifferent ear to the com plaints because they were not unfavourable to the abomi nations which the Right Rev. Prelate had under-stated. —( Hear, hear.) But he agreed with the motion only upon this understanding, that the Government had no part in giving to those proceedings a publicity which they ought never to have obtained He believed that in other coun tries equally pernicious and abominable systems had died away ;n consequence of the wise policy of the Governments, elm followed a different course from that which was now urged upon this Government. He did not know whether the Right Rev. Prelate had polluted himself so much in the doctrines of St. Simonianism as he had in studying those of Socialism. The Right Rev,. Prelate shook his head ; he ( Lord Lansdowne) was not very learned in those mat ters, but he knew that in France doctrines not less abomi nable than Socialism were promulgated for some years, and that now, without any effort of the law, they had fallen into insignificance, if they had not altogether died away. The mischievous activity which urged Mr. Owen, of whose motives he could say nothing, had carried him to America, where his doctrines found followers but for a very short time, and did not now exist at all. It was thus with all those delusions which from time to time possessed the minds of some men, and infected a few. If they were al lowed to wear themselves out they soon passed away; but persecution only gave them notoriety and favour. He did not say that where the laws were violated they should not be vindicated ; hut the effect of bringing the laws to bear upon a particular class of men marked teem out sometimes for popular sympathy, and very often enabled them to propagate their mischievous and abominable, but happily impracticable, doctrines with greater effect. With regard to that particular feature of Socialism—the purchase of land and the formation of colonies, which appeared so for midable to the Right Rev. Prelate, he (the Marquis ef Lansdowne) did not apprehend so much danger from it. He knew that there was a colony on the borders of the county with which lie was connecterl, and within the limits of that of which the Noble Duke was Lord Lieutenant. He had made inquiry respecting that colony, end he found that one of the conditions was, that every person must bring 201 into it.--(A laugh.) He thought their Lordships would admit that this condition was sufficient to prevent the too rapid increase of such a colony. When the people found out that they were deluded by artful men, and that they had been cheated of their money, that experience would do more to put an end to those colo nies than any act of the Attorney. General. Those people would soon find that those mischievous and abomineblc doctrines were fortunately wholly impracticable, and those unsuccessful experiments which, with whatever ether evil they might be attended, would serve at least to convince mankind of the utter impossibility of moulding human nature upon those immoral systems. He therefore did not view wi.h that apprehension which others did, those particular instances of what were called " Man Colonies." On those grounds, and those grounds alone, he acquiesced in the motion for the address. The Bishop of LONDON would trespass on the atten tion of their Lordships for only a few minutes. He con sidered that a very beneficial effect would result from their Lordships' debates on this subject, and by their publicity, because he was persuaded that there was as yet so much of good in the heart of the country, that the well educated classes, and those who possessed a just influence on the lower orders would combine together in opposing those pernicious doctrihes. But he was afraid they en joyed the worst kind of publicity, they were well-known and canvassed by the great bulk of the population, not merely by those who were commonly called the public, but by those on whose good principles the safety of the public depended.—( Hear, hear.) There was a weekly publication, which he believed enjoyed an extensive circu lation, and he regretted to say, if common report spoke true, that the joint proprietor, if not the active editor of that mischievous publication, was a Magistrate of influence in this metropolis —a paper which did not content itself with setting forth the abstract principles of Socialism, and a paper which, he would venture to say, could not have escaped the notice of her Majesty's Attorney-General, and which, without hesitation, he asserted, ought to have been over and over again the subject of prosecution by that legal functionary. That was only one of the peri odical press that was diffusing their pernicious principles and practices, end that kind of publicity so far from being likely to derive any increase, would, ho was per suaded before lon g rece i ve a salutary check and diminution. He would take the liberty of remind ing the Noble Viscount at the head of the Govern ment that if such an address was presented to her Majesty, the effect likely to be produced on the Government would not depend SO much on the ch aracter of the address as upon the answer that might be given to it —( Ch eers. ) He had not intended to have troubl e d t h e i r L ordships, but interested as he was in the spi r i tua l welfare of the people of the great metropolis , which was the citadel and stronghold of all that was evil as well as much that was good, he considered that he should . have been w anting i n his duty if he had not expressed his assent t o a ll t h at had been stated with so much Christian feeling and eloquence ley his Right Reverend Friend.—( Hear, hear.) He be lieved the discussion and the unanimous feeling expressed in that House on the subject would have a most beneficial 'MITI' SUN, LONDON, W.I4_,DNIA,SDAY, FEBRUARY 5.140 effect on the country at large, and that it would lead to the desired result of stemming and turning the tide of infidelity, blasphemy, libel, and indecency, which was at present, for some cause or other, suffered to inundate, he might almost say, t•) desolate the land.--( Hear.) After a few observations from Lord A -3HBURTON, which were not heard in the gallery, The Bishop of EXETER replied, and vindicated the conduct of the Clergyman whose conduct had been ani madverted upon by the Noble Marquis, for having fur nished him (the Bishop of Exeter) with certain informa tion. That Clergyman would never have put himself forward had he not been desired to state the truth, and to state all that he knew upon the subject. The Address was then agreed to, and their Lordships adjourned at Half-past Ten o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS Fit. 4. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. Mr. VILLIERS brought in tho V 4 olyerh.mpton Gas Bill, which was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time, to-morrow. Sir CHARLES STYLES presented a petition from a parish in the county of Donegal, complaining of the ex treme limitation of the elective franchise in Ireland. Mr. VILLIERS presented a petition from Cornwall for a repeal of the Corn-laws. Mr. G. W. WOOD presented a petition in favour of copyright in designs. An HON. MEMBER presented a petition from a parish in Hampshire, praying the House to take steps to check the progress of Socialism. The petitioners complained of the annoyances to which they were them,eltes subjected, in consequence of the Socialist meetings held upon the Sab bath in their neighbourhood, at which the most mischievous and blasphemous doctrines were propounded. Mr. STRANG WA I'S presented a petition from the borough of Wareham, in the county of Dorset, against Church-rates and the Ecclesiastical Courts. Mr. BAILEY presented a petition from the city of Worcester in favour of Church Extension. Mr. PAKINGTON and General LYG ON presented similar petitions from paces in the county of Worcester. Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND presented petitions from places in the West Riding. of Yorkshire, praying for the immediate abolition of the Corn-laws. PRIVILEGES OF PARLIAMENT. Mr. ERLE presented a petition from an individual, whose name we understood to be Blake, setting forth that his attention had been drawn to the recent proceedings in the. House on the subject of the privilege of publication ; and that, having suffered in the year 1813, by the privi leged publication of statements which were injurious to him, and were made before a Committee of the House, in which he had no opportunity of answering them, he prayed the House that in the event of any change being made in the exercise of that privilege, the House would allow means of redress to persons against whom ex parte and untrue statements might be made before its Committees or in its published papers. Mr. NV 7. 11 N ELLIS presented a petition from certain inhabitants of the town of Leicester, praying that the House would appoint a Committee to inquire into the prin ciples of Mr. Owen. Mr. COLQUHOUN presented a petition from Glas gow, praying that the House %sould withdraw its confidence from Ministers. Mr. WARBURTON pi esented a petition from Mr. William Pare, superintendent of births, deaths, and mar riages at Birmingham, praying for inquiry into the charges made against him. The petition was ordered to be printed with the votes of the House on the question of Socialism on Thursday next. Mr. LABOUCHERE presented a petition from St. Paul's Chapel, Taunton, against Church-rates; also a petition from the Lord Provost and Citizens of Glasgow, complaining of the manner in which the private business of the House was conducted, and praying the House to adopt measures for the improve ment of the constitution of the Committee on Private Bills, and to require the constant attendance of the Mem bers of such Committees during the examination of wit nesses, and the whole proceedings. The Hon. Member said he should move the petition be referred to the Com mittee now sitting on Private Bills. ..... Mr. HUME presented a petition, signed by 250 inha bitants of the village of Merton-Tooting, and adjoining places, praying that a Committee might be appointed to inquire into the doctrines of the Socialists. The Hon. Member said that he had been furnished with the Rules of a Socialist Society, in which he was not able to see anything objectionable. Also a similar petition from the inhabitants of the Potteries, in Staffordshire, praying that Robert Owen might be examined before the House. Mr. VILLIERS presented a petition for the Repeal of the Corn-laws. Also from Stage Coach Proprietors, complaining of the existing system of duties. Mr. POWER presented petitions from Newtownbarry and other plats in the County of Wexford, praying for an extension of the franchise, and also for Corporation Reform in Ireland. Mr. KELLY begged to ask whether it was true that the three prisoners convicted of high treason at Mon mouth, had not merely been removed from that gaol, but whether they were not now, while the question was sup posnd to be under consideration as to what should be their ultimate fate, on their passage from that country to a placo of transportation ? Mr. FOX M ALT LE thought he had answered that question already.—( Hear, hear.) The state of the case was, that these three prisoners had been removed from Monmouth Gaol—they were not then on their passage to any foreign country, but they were on their way, if they had not already arrived at the Hulks at Portsmouth. PRIVILEGE. Mr. HUME begged to ask .vhethcr the Sergeant-at- Arms had any report to make with respect to Mr. Burton Howard. The SPEAKER having called on the Depu:y- Ser geant, who was in attendance, that officer stated that a rnessenger from the house went to Mr. Burton Howard's, but he could not be found, and his wife said that he was in the country. Mr. HUME wished to know whether Mr B. .Howard's son had been directed to attend. He understood from his lien. Friend the Member fur Finsbury, that some fur ther evidence would be laid before the House on that day, and it appeared to him to be trifling with the House. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that after the report that had just beer, made by the Sergeant-at- Arms, and the fact that when the Messenger went to his house, he was in formed that he was gone to Hull, he thought it hardly possible that if Mr. Howard was in any way desirous of evading the orders of the House, he should not, being an Attorney, and having an office in London, have been informed of the orders of the House. The Right lion. Gentleman, the Member for Montgo meryshire, had on a former occasion stated most correctly the constitutional doctrine regarding the orders of that House, viz., that persons were bound to be aware of them, and to obey them. One would not wish to press that doctrine in any case where there was a probability that the party was not aware of the order having been given. He thought, however, there was sufficient to show that the party in the present case wished to evade the orders of the House, and that there had been quite sufficient to induce the House to agree to the motion with which ho meant to conclude—That Mr. Howard be ordered to attend at the bar of the House, and that the Sergeant-at- Arms be authorised to take him into custody for that purpose. Sir E. SUGDEN would suggest that a milder course be pursued, which he thought would be equally satisfacto ry. It was to come to a resolution, that leaving the notice at the house of Mr. Burton Howard should be deemed good service of such notice. Such was the practice adopt ed by Courts of law under similar circumstances. Mr. O'C 0 NNE L L said, it seamed to him that the method proposed by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down would be exceedingly inconvenient, because if it was held to be technically necessary to serve these documents at the house of the individual in question, it would be in fact doing away with the practice as laid down by the Hon. Member for Mont gomery, that every person was bound to be aware of the votes of that House. Sir ROBERT INGLIS felt bound to protest against the doctrine laid down by the Noble Lord on the autho rity of the lion. Member for Montgomery. He said that every person was bound to have knowledge of the votes and orders of that House—why, the votes of the House of to-day would not be published or delivered for four days to come, and yet of those orders, according to the rule now laid down, all her Majesty's subjects were required to be cognizant. The law required that every person in the realm should be cognizant of the statutes of the realm—the reason of it was this—in early times those laws were declared and published by the Sheriffs at the Market Cross on market days, but no such publicity had ever been given to the orders and proceedings of that House. Therefore ho considered it would be the greatest act of tyranny that had ever been committed to come to a resolution that the votes of that House were as binding on her Majesty's subjects as an Act of Parliament, and that they were all equally bound to know it. Why they were demanding a physical impossibility. The House might come to a resolution at one o'clock on Tuesday morning, and then they contended that all the Queen's subjects were bound to know it immediately.— ( Hear, bear.) And if they were not bound to know it on the Tuesday, why were they more bound to know it on the Saturday ? He did not know if this motion were for the Speaker to issue his warrant for the immediate appre hension of Mr. Howard. The SPEAKER thought it would be more in order if the motion were read front the Chair before any debate should be commenced upon it. Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the best method of wording the motion would be '• That Thomas Burton Howard be taken into the custody of the Serjeant-at-Arms, and brought to the bar of the House, and Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant for the apprehension of the said Thomas Burton Howard accordingly." The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it was unneces sary to enter into the speculative question whether the votes of the House should be known by every individual whom they concerned.—( Hear.) In the case before the House he thought there could not be the slightest ground for doubting that Mr. Howard must have had ample no tice of the Orders of the House.—( Hear.) The notice had beer► left at his dwelling-house. Did any Member doubt that he was perfectly aware of it ?—( Hear, hear.) Mr. - Sergeant JACKSON wished the House had be fore refrained from those speculative assertions of right which had led the House into the subsequent embarrass ments. He also rose to enter his decided protest against the doctrine that the resolutions of that House were to be supposed to have the same publicity as the re gular law of the land which had received the assent of the three estates of the realm. Lord MAHON said the Noble Lord (J. Russell) had yesterday stated that he did not think there was sufficient ground for believing that Mr. Howard was setting the House at defiance. HerlMajesty's Attorney-Ge nera l had to day stated that there was. He (Lord Mahon) was at a loss to reconcile these contradictory statements. Lord J. RUSSELL said he thought now that, with all possible latitude of credulity, it could not be conceived that Mr. Howard was not fully aware of the order of the House. Sir R. PEEL said he did not give his rote for the motion on the supposed knowledge by the public of the proceedings of that House---( Ilear)—he did not think there was any necessity in the present case for entertaining that question—(Hear)—but he believed that a person was here throwing impediments in the way of public justice, and obstructing the purposes of the House, and, therefore, he thought himself quite justified in taking a more summary process of compelling his attendance. Mr. Howard was at the bar ten days since, an explanation amounting to an apology was made by him, and he was discharged. Another notice of action had since been served by the same party on their printer, and he (Sir R Peel) thought there was so strong a presumption that there was an intention to defeat justice by keeping out of the way, that he had not th e l eas t hesitation in taking the most effectual step to insure Mr. Howard's attendance. Sir R. INGLIS acknowledged that if there was any justice in the proceedings of that HQUSC, that then Mr. Howard was doing wrong in keeping out of the way. But he denied that there was, and lie admired the conduct of any man who refused to submit to a tyrant majority.— (Cries of " Oh, oh 1") Mr. G °CLEW RN' could not acquiesce in the doc trine of his H,mourable• Friend who had just sat down. If the House were to acquiesce in those doc trines, it would be effectually prevented from exercising its most important functions. According to the doctrine of his Hon. Friend, a party was to judge for himself whether his attendance was requisite or not. Why, if that doctrine was applied to any witness whom the House might think fit to call for, it would be impossible for the House to conduct its business.—(Cheers.) Was the House to wait until the witness might be convinced of the justico of the call ?—( Hear, hear.) He was ready to take the most lenient course of dealing with every witness whose services the House might require; but it was right, after giving them every time to fulfil voluntarily the duties the House required of them, that they should exercise the power they possessed of compelling them to attend —( Hear, bear.) Mr. F. SHAW held that everybody ought to obey the summons of the House, and he could not entertain in his mind any moral doubt that Mr. Howard had received notice to attend. He should, therefore, vote for issuing the Speaker's warrant. Sir E. KNATCHBULL contended, flint no cause having been assigned, the Speaker would not adopt so altogether singular, unprecedented, and informal a pro ceeding, as to issue a warrant for the arrest of that party, without assigning in the warrant what the offence was. The SPEAKER said. the only precedent he could call to Leonard mi n d Boltonasa s and ewhich two oc o c t u h r e r r e s d iwneArelaraerhr,eslteeedl,own thehen Speaker's warrant for not ha vin g a ttended at the bar pursuant to the order of the H ouse. The Clerk then read t he CLASSES. precedent for a w t a t r h d e t t h a e bl m e, ot a i n o d n istricts, with a v i ew to the i q rc u . e o s s t N i T n A E w N N a E s Ty p u OF then a Fi nndTpraoHogpsrEuee t agreed to. WORKINGs bringd wisdom of P ar li ament can de of which he had given notice for a S e l ect C omm i ttee to inquire into the causes of discontent remedies r as as th p e ossible, any re asona bl e grounds amidst g reat b o di es o f of complaint, in order th ereb y to stren g th en the attachment applyvt s e e , w t o o r s work e i e n r nh g or ve c em l , a ea s s d s of the people to the institutions of the count ry. In rising dd s the House he fe lt dee p l y sensible of his inade quacyto arcs to perform t he dut y ; but he en tertained a deep seated conv ic t i on of the importance of th e su bj ect, and had given it his best and most laborious at tention. H e would venture to say that a quest i on o f greater importance c ould scarcel y be brought before the House than the su b j ect he was abo ut to enter upon, and he trusted that would grant him th e i r i n d ulgence as one trespassing on their attenti on. H e did not mean upon any topics which could a t a ll i n fl ame the public notto often n but he would endeav our , to the b est of his power, to suggest the rem edies that ought to be op. ert etenmind,r re plied to the evil. He would apply himself, in the first instance, to the true cause of the discontent that had prevailed, more or less, amongst the groat body , of their fellow -countrymen in the densely peopled districts of the country for a considerable num ber of years past. In 1812 great dissatisfaction pre vailed in the four midland counties of England. Persons calling themselves " Bloodites " were spread over Lanca shire, the West Riding of Yorkshire, Cheshire, and Not tingham. They met but at night, and they were armed in military array, and training took place. They began with the breaking of machinery, but subsequently proceeded to other acts of violence. At that time the murder of a most respectable manufacturer took place. In 1815 there were strikes of the working classes on the Tyne and the Wean— ( Here there was considerable noise from the number of Members leaving the House ) He implored Hon, Mem bers to give him their attention, or at least to absent them selves for a short time.—( Hear, hear.) In 1817 there was a general ferment amidst the working population in many of the districts which were most thickly peopled. That contined for some time, and spread over various districts, and the events which occurred were still remem bered at Manchester with feelings of regret. There had been great the Government. disaffection, In I ttoand 2 and variou s presleBcutf there onions the part of was the rising of a considerable number of persons in Derby, headed by Braedreth—they marched through a portion of the kingdom in armies, and were only dispersed by force, 13randrcth and scvcral of those who shared his crime, being tried, and executed for high treason. After the panic of 1626, there were many strikes, and there was also much violence. The strikes were exceedingly injurious to those coinected with the respective manufactures, who were well disposed. In 1827, there were meetings of delegates at the Isle of Man, and a combined system of strikes was organized. In 1830, and in succeeding years the trade discontents merged in political agitation. There was the well-remembered march of 43,000 men through London ; the Trades' Unions, and the Working iMens' Associations were formed ; and about 1836, the principles of what was called Chartism were first enunciated. These Char tist principles had since been widely disseminated. It was known they included five claims—Vote by Ballot, An nual Parliaments, Universal Suffrage, Equal Electoral Divisions, and No Property Qualifications. The result had been that great discontent had prevailed among the working classes. He did not wish to speak w ith harsh nesss of the Chartists, who, however mischievous they might have been, were perhaps some of them sincere. He had entered into this statement to show that the dis contents were not merely temporary --and transitory, but that they had been the result of long growth. He would now venture to allude to the real causes of their discontent. Hon. Members would perhaps be divided in opinion as to their causes. Hon. Gentlemen opposite might perhaps attribute all this dissatisfaction and all these disturbances, to the agitation following the Reform Bill. Hon. Gentlemen on this side would on the contrary ascribe it all to the denial of the working classes of their share in the suffrage. He implored the House to lay aside the consideration of both these causes, which he thought had better be debated on separate occasions, when motions on the subject were brought forward. It appeared to him, the great causes in which they were to look for the discontent which had arisen among our manufactur ing population, were to be found in the great change which had taken place in the social condition of the great body of the people, which had not been ac companied by any progressive legislation. He would state some of the causes, and afterwards their effects : The war gave us a monopoly in commerce and manufac tures, and the discoveries in machinery gave us the domi nion of what might be called twenty millions of pairs of hands, which needed neither sleep, nor refreshment, nor clothes to cover them, the effect of which had been greatly to multiply the numbers who were brought to gether i4ticular places. He would state shortly the change had taken place, and afterwards show that change Ott% had taken place, and afterwards show that no corresiosadent change had taken place in the legislation of the country to assist those persons whose situation was so changed. In 1790 the workmen who dwelt in towns were bo tiie agriculturists in the country as one to two, but at Resent the proportion was exactly changed ; in forty years the number of persons employed in agricul ture had increased 40 to 45 per cent., whereas those call - o°s d in manufactures had increased 120 per cent. In thir s ty y. ears ending 1831, the increase in Manchester was 101 L; in Glasgow, 103; in Leeds, 99; and in Liverpool, 100 per cent. A change . had taken place in the condi tion of the people, which had been unattended to by the Legislature. He did not intend to cast blame on the Le gislature of this or any former time, but its attention hav ing been engaged by other questions, no corresponding legislation to the great changes that had taken place had been made to the benefit of those great bodies of the people who were congregated together in thickly popu lated districts. He would point ::ut the physical evils that existed, first, in the absence of all salutary provisions for the improvement of their dwellings; secondly, in the ab sence of any provision against those fluctuations in em ployment which were continually taking place, and which led to the very worst results ; thirdly, as respected this want of being able to partake in any religious instruction whatever, and fourthly, as regarded the defi ciency of education among their children, to teach them their duties. The Poor-law Commissioners, in their re port, stated that there were large districts in the east of the metropolis, including Shorediteh, Bethnal-green, and neighbourhood, where families were living in cellars, and kitchens, ill-drained, d ar k, an d ex t reme l y d amp , w h ere epidemics and infectious diseases were of frequent occur rence. These diseases entailed very considerable charges upon the labouring clams, who were frequently thereby thrown into a state of destitution. There were many other statements of a similar character with which he did not intend to trouble the House, but he would ask any man who had the least feeling for the working classes, whether he could hear these statements without being deeply affected? The Hon. Member then read the report of a medical off icer on t h e state of Holborn-hill and that dis trict, and who stated that no outlay for fever hospitals would be of the slightest use without other precautionary measures. In the district of George the Martyr, South_ wark, containing a population of 50 000 the circumstances of distress and di sease were equally' aggravated, and the same might be said of a large district close to the House, St. John and St. Margaret, Westminster. Gentlemen who enjoyed wealth and luxury had no idea of what the poor suffered. And yet their sufferings might, with a little care and attention, be mitigated greatly if not removed. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to refer to the Report (not yet laid before the House, but which he had by favour been allowed to peruse) of the Hand loom Weavers' Commission. A more valuable document never was presented before the House. The condition of the weavers appeared to be truly awful. Tumbling down houses, with broken windows—narrow elle) s—open drains —noisome ditches—aud all kinds of filthy nuisances. The Commissioners alluded to the evident tendency which all this wretchedness had to demoralization—the happy and contented workman had no temptation to those vices which so destroyed the morals of the wretched and mise rable poor.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He would now refer to the state of the Glasgow population. Mr. Simpson had given similar testimony as to the wretched state of the lower classes there. Li Nottingham, there were 7,000 out of 11.000 houses without proper drainage and ventil ation.—( Conversation on the part of the Members present hero induced the Hon. Member to entreat them to go into the lobby or the library, and allow him to detail statements which he believed important to the best inter ests of the lower classes.) The Report of the Statis tical Society for 1840, was well worthy of perusal. inhabit e d. In Liverpo o l there were thousands of cellars In Manchester, 30,000 persons—one-seventh of the popu lation —lived in dark, close, unventilated cellars. There were also 2,200 courts, quite unventilated. In York, on the contrary, there was not a single cellar inhabited. It was evident, therefore, that the rapid growth of the new towns had caused the distress. In Bury—the population 20,000—out of 3,000 labouring persons, 773 slept three or four in a bed ; 250, two or three in a bed ; at least up wards of a thousand were in such utter destitution. It was most important that, in districts so densely popula ted, private benevolence would avail little ; the Govern- ment should interfere with sanatory regulations. In Bris tol, one-third of the lower classes of houses were without drains, and upwards of 1,000 houses without water, or with very bad water. Then as to Newcastle-on-Tyne, in a population of 64,000, there were 2,600 criminals—mostly women ; and the poverty and filth was awful. In Leeds the drainage was dreadfully neglected; there were 13,000 houses under 10/. ; 13-17 the of the whole. A great propor tion of the streets or alleys were impassable for vehicles, and lines with linen drying were hung in most of them. The deaths of infants were more numerous than in any other district ; and the town was marked out in the account of the Registrar-General of Deaths as one of the most unhealthy in the kingdom. He was aware that these details must be very wearying to the House ; he had many others, which he would not trouble the House with, re serving them for the Committee, which he trusted would was 106 000—therefore in that large town four out of five had no means of obtaining religious in , truction. In the metropolis it appeared that seven-eight:ls of the popula tion were similarly circumstanced. In Bethnal-green there were 10,000 without any educatioa. In the six Parishes in the suburbs of London there were 180,000 without education, or I in 27 educated. In 17 of the principal towns in England the number educated was only 1 in 24 : in Manchester it was 1 in 35 ; in Birmingham 1 in 3, ; and in Leeds 1 in 31. He hoped another Session would not be suffered to pass away until some remedy had been applied to these evils, until education and religious instruction had been provided—until the working classes were insured from want of employment. The police returns showed that the country was in a ft ightfully increasing state of crime, and in the borough of Liverpool alone the expense of supporting criminal was not less than 700,0001. per annum. Let them apply the sum, incredible as it might seem, to the expenses incurred in the metropolis and the other large towns of the kingdom, and they would find that it amounted to a sum infinitely greater ten times told than the amount he asked of the House for the im provement of the condition of the working classes. The expense of establishing the Rural Police was 450 000/., in the metropolitan districts the amount was 250,0001., in the boroughs 100.0001., i n L on d on i t was 40,000 1 ., ma ki ng a total o 850,000/. ; but that was not all. The expenses paid out the Consolidated Fund and from the county rates, as connected with crime, and of which he had got an accurate detail, amounted to 352,0001. per annum. The prevention of crime in England costs altogether 602,000/. a-year. There was one other part to which he should allude, that was the immense increase which had taken place of late years in the consumption of spirits. That was an increase, as it appeared to him, which would indicate the misery and the state of crime of the people. The consumption of ardent spirits had increased, in a period of not many years, from 9,000 to 29,000 gallons in the United Kingdom, and instead of being confined to one gallon to each of the population it had increased to one gallon and a half. The quantity of duty now drawn from spirits amounted to 8 , 2 50,000/. a-year. He did not think they should draw that large revenue from the crimes and the follies of the people ; and he thought they ought to take some steps on that subject. The increase he had alluded to had been no where so large as in Scot land.—(Hear.) He held in his hand a paper which showed that in Glasgow there was a spirit shop for every ten houses. in England he found that, with a population of 12,000,000, the yearly consumption of spirits amounted to 22,000,000 of gallons ; in Ireland, with a population of 8,000,000, it amounted to 12,200,000 gal- . ga. lons ; and in Scotland, with a population of about 3,000,000, it amotr.ed to 6,700,000 gallons. In Scotland the consumption was three times its amount in England, and nearly twice its amount in Ireland. ( The Hon. Gentle. man then proceeded to say that education was the great want of the population.) He was aware that questions of the nature he had brought forward were distasteful to the House, and he knew they would prefer discussions of a party nature. Nothing, however, in his opinion, could be of more importance or more useful than the question he was submitting to their consideration. The Hon. Mem ber then concluded by stating his motion. Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN rose for the purpose of seconding the motion. He felt that a subject of greater importance than the present could not be submitted to the House, and he gave his thanks to the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury for having afforded the House the opportunity of having deliberated upon the mat ter. There were certainly strong grounds for inquiry into the subject, and he was convinced that the condition of the working classes would require to be investigated more fully than it had yet been in that House. Last year there had Leen petitions presented to them signed by 1,250,000 of the labouring classes, complaining of their condition. That fact alone should show that there were grounds for inquiring into the matter. It was obvious that the working population were now endeavouring to transfer power to themselves. They were claiming Uni versal Suffrage, Vote by Ballot, Annual Parliaments, the absence of a property qualification for Members of the House and the payment of Members. He thought that though none in the House could think that those measures should be conceded, yet much might be done to satisfy those who complained of the present order of things. The 101. franchise, for instance, which existed in towns, might be extended to counties, and a large portion of the present malcontents would thus be enlisted to the cause of order. As to the Ballot, be, for his part, looked upon it as an evil, and if they enlarged and equalized the suffrage, he believed it would be perfectly unnecessary. Large constituencies always protected themselves, and bribery and intimidation were impossible among them. Education was one of the means of improving the country which they should resort to; he did not think it had hitherto been sufficiently encouraged in this country. He believed that, in point of refinement, the people of England did not oc cupy that rank which their station among the nations of Europe should entitle them to. On the Continent they might find in every large town libraries, museums, galleries of natural history, and botanic gardens open to the people; while in England there were not more than half a dozen such institutions to be met with. There was another expedient which he thought it would be of the highest advantage they should have recourse to—he meant a sound system of emigration, which he thought would remove the traces of poverty from the land. He would not now, however, allude farther to that subject, as it was his intention to call the special attention of the House to it on a future occasion. There were other questions which he should wish to see submitted to this Committee, and he regretted that the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury proposed to limit his inquiries within such narrow limits. For in stance, the financial returns showed that the great bulk of the taxes were paid by the lower orders of the people ( Hear, hear)—and therefore the Committee should inquire into that subject. The currency also should form a subject of inquiry, inasmuch as thousands were liable to be thrown out of employment by the operations of the Bank parlour on the currency. The administration of the New Poor law Act had been stated as one of the main causes of Chartism, whilst the advocates of that measure assured the House that it had not only reduced the rates, but had con ferred great benefit on the labouring classes. Now if this were so, it would be desirable to ascertain the reason why so large a portion of the labouring classes objected to it. The Corn-laws also—(A laugh from the Opposition)— Gentlemen smiled at his entering on so large a field of inquiry ; but how were they to discover the causes of the dissatisfaction without it ? For his part he believed that inquiry would show that the Corn-laws were not so much to blame as had been supposed. Committees had been appointed by that House, embracing quite as large a field of inquiry.—( Hear, hear ) The Committee which was appointed in the year 1830 to consider and report upon the condition of the Irish poor, was a case in point ; that Committee had ended by recommending to the House no less than nineteen Bills, and it was the opinion of every one who had considered the übject that it had been one of the most useful Committees ever appointed. He hoped that this would not be considered a party ques tion, and that the Ministry would take that opportunity of convincing the working classes that their interests were not neglected by the Government, but that it was really anxious to promote to the utmost the happiness and welfare of the people. Mr. LAMBTON entertained great doubts as to the utility of this motion. There were various opinions as to the causes of the discontent. During the debate last week Hon. Gentlemen opposite had attributed them to the Go vernment, so that the Committee woul I have to investigate the whole of the proceedings of the Government. He thought one great cause of the discontent was the great ignorance of the working classes. He saw thousands of them deluded by the grossest misrepresentations, and led away by the most absurd fantasies—his remedy for that would he National EVEN ;IT I N e did not consider that any practical good could result from the appointment of a Committee on the limited plan suggested by the Hon. Mover. Mr. INGHAM would by no means attempt to follow the Hon. Member for Kilkenny through the desultory series of contentious and exciting, as well as irelcvant topics which he had thought just to name.—( Hear.) He wished the Committee which had been proposed by the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury from motives so benevolent and laudable.—( Hear, hear.)—he wished that Committee to apply itself to objects of really practical utility. It had been truly stated that the working classes were not ge nerally aware of the facilities given by recent Acts for the establishment of Friendly and Saving Bank Institutions, in a manner calculated to enable them to avail themselves easily and with effect of the salutary plan of depositing. Could the lower classes be induced to avail themselves more generally of such institutions, the result would be highly beneficial to the community, for the acquirement of property gave the possessor an immediate and powerful interest in maintainin g allegiance to the laws. The allot ment system was calculated to produce no small benefit to the labouring h c l asses.—( Hear, hear.) As to the right of primogenit ure , i t was so inseparably associated not only with the laws, but with the habit and feelings of the people, that even if abolished from the statute book, it would be maintained by voluntary consent. — (Hear, hear.) And he believed that, anxious as the people might be to possess landed property, they would not gene rally d sapprove of the law of primogeniture, and they would preter transmitting t h e i r estates to their eldest sons, in contradistinction to the minute subdivision of Ind in vogue on the continent, especially in France. Before he sat down he would just mention that the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury had rather been misled by the apparently appalling increase of crime in Newcastle-on-Tyne—by the returns declaring that some 2,600 criminals were its the town ;—the fact being that-those returns included the most trifling offences against the police. Mr. BROTHERTON said, although the poor could not inherit land, every poor man's child should have a good education.—( Hear.) He could not but remark on the enormous increase of intemperance which had recently taken place. He believed that a people were much more l t i a o l n e s d a r b , n y u t a h l l e y i r were e i c r e e s s t u h n a k n — b l y o s t t_ h e i G n Government. nm crimeen t . of F t i n f t t y e m m p t e l - ranee. How soon could the people attain comfort and con tent, would they but discard the habits of intemperance. Whereas the consumption of ardent spirits was dread fully on the increase. It had augmented from 9,030,000/. to 50,000,0001. within the last twenty or thirty years. In E land th —ntion was seven y y ,ng ie consumption ',— pints to every man, woman, and child ; in Ireland thirteen; in Seo land, twenty-three. In England the cases of in sanity were one in a thousand ; in Ireland, one in eight hundred ; in Scotland, one in 450. Thus it was plain that insanity was the result of ardent drinking. From all the inquiries he had made, he was sure that intempe rance was a main cause of crime.--( Hear, hear.) And he was convinced that the people themselves must be the chief authors of their own improvement, which must always principally be the result of amendment in their moral habits. —( Hear-) Mr. %TILL lER,S wished to make a suggestion to the . Hon. Mover—not to be the unintentional author of a delu sion on the people. The present terms of the motion pointed to all the causes of the existing discontent, whereas the Hon. Gentleman intended to limit the inquiry to some points. Should not these subjects, then, be expressly stated in the appointment of the Committee ? He believed that the House were more disposed now to be just to the great masses of the people ; but the people were much more alive to the character of the legislation of the House. Lord J. RUSSELL said the great difficulties he felt as to the appointment of this Committee were, first, the terms in which the motion had been couched ; and se condly the declarations of some of the supporters of the motion. He should not feel justified, as a Minister of the Crown, in recommending an inquiry into many subjects on which he was not aware that any precise remedy bad been, or would be suggested. Still the inquiry might have a beneficial effect in discovering some means for the improve ment of the people, in the manufacturing districts espe cially. But he really had not the same opinion as to in quiry into such questions as the Poor-laws—the Corn laws—the Franchise—and the Law of Primogeniture. These were too important for a Select Committee. He (Lord J. Russell) might hold notions which did agree with those of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny with respect to Universal Suffrage, and ho was not likely to be con vinced by the Report of a Select Committee on the sub ject.--( Hear, hear.) He did not think that any good would result from the motion as it was at present worded, inasmuch as, according to the argument of the Hon. Mem ber for Kilkenny, it would raise hopes in the people which would not be subsequently realized. It was quite clear that if hope s were h e ld out that a C omm i ttee s h ou ld be v appointed a Suffrage, o ag in er Airnenui the al arli p m r e o n b t a s b , l a e n i d n fl vo ue t n e ce by of Ballot,Uni in amelioratin g th e con di t i on o f t h e wet ki ng classes, an d then, after sittin g f o r a S es si on , th a t t h ey s h ou ld come t* no result, they would be justly liable to th e i mputat i on o f exciting false hopes in the minds of th e pe o pl e . I f t h e House was disposed to entertain the question o f U n i versa l Suffrage, let it be brought fairly by a motion before the whole House. As regarded the condition of the working classes Marge manufacturing towns, there were many things which might be legitimately brought under the considera tion of a Select Committee, because, when a large popu lation had suddenly sprung up in a mining or manut 4e luring district, it must be obvious that the means of educs tion, of religious instruction, and of police, must be total!e inadequate. Although in Manchester, Birmingham, Sae% field, and Leeds, they bad sometimes to lament t!‘e occurrence of disturbances, yet the state of the popnlation in these towns was far more satisfactory than in the large manufacturing villsges, if he might so call them, where there was nothing like a local government, and where there were no persons of great wealth with whom the labouring classes might become connected.—( Hear, bear. ) The great object in these cases was to supply the deficien cies in the local governments, and religious and moral in struction of these communities. For his ( Lord J. Russell's) part. he considered the metropolis, containing within a small space a greater number of human beings than they had any authentic accounts of having been collected to gether at any former time, he considered that its population furnished an example of as moral a body, conducting themselves with as much regard to all the considerations of civilization and social feelings as could be found in any part of the world, and although in the present year, 1840, the population was very much in creased beyond what it was in 1780, the safety and freedom from riot and disorder was very much increased also.— ( Hear, hear.) He thought the question of large masses of the population being crowded together without proper cleanliness and ventilation, and the consequent production of fever and disease, was one of the points which might pro perly come under the consideration of the Committee. If the Hon. Member would amend his motion so es to exclude the question of the political causes of discontent, he ( Lord J. Russell) would not object to it, and he would add that the subject of religious instruction was likely to be brought, by many other motions, under the consideration of the House. Mr. BRISCOE objected to the manner in which the Hon, Member had shaped his motion, inasmuch as he sug gested remedies, while he at the same time moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the cause of these griev ances.—( Hear, hear.) One of the great grounds of com plaint among the people was the inequality of taxation, in asmuch as they were impressed with the belief that most of the articles of necessity consumed by them were more heavily taxed than the luxuries of the tich. Now if they were mistaken on that point, it would be the duty of the Committee to undeceive the people, or to suggest a remedy where they were right. Ho le CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS. Sir ROBERT PEEL moved that the Committee ap pointed to consider controverted elections do have power to send for persons, papers, and records.—Ordered. EDUCATION. Sir R. INGLIS gave notice that on Tuesday, the 18th, he would move that it is the duty of this House to provide further means for the religious instruction of the people, through the medium of the Established Church.—( Ironi cal cries of " Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) DIVORCE BILLS. 7 • Mr. L ABO UCHE RE gave notice that on Tuesday, the 11th, he would move that in future all Divorce Bills should be referred to a Committee of seven. Mr. H UME said he sl - ,ould on that occasion take the sense of the House as to the propriety of removing Divorce Bills altogether from Parliament. TURNPIKE TRUSTS. Mr. FOX ,MULE gave notice that on Thursday next he would propose a measure with regard to turnpike trusts. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS. Mr. INGHAM give notice that he would move for certain returns relative to the applications which had been made under the Municipal Corporation Act for charters of incorporation. ECCLESIASTICAL REFORM. Mr. BARRON wished to ask the Noble Lord, the Se cretary of state for the Colonial Department, whether it was the intention of the Government, in the course of the present Session, and when, to introduce any measure for the consolidation and reform of the Ecclesiastical Courts. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it was the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill with regard to the Ecclesiastical Courts, but he could not state the exact time when that Bill would be introduced. Mr. BARRON wished also to know whether it was in tended to adopt a measure of a similar nature with regard to Ireland. Lord JOHN RUSSELL could not answer that clues. ,ion without consulting his Friend the Lord Lieutenant of [reland. THE NEWPORT RIOTS. Sir B. HALL wished to put a question to the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department, relative to the three individuals whc had been found guilty of high treason at Monmouth--Frost, Williams, and Jones, he understood that tile Government had commuted their sentence to transportation ; he had received a letter that morning from Monmouth, stating that it was the intention of the Government to remove them immediately from Monmouth to the hulks at Portsmouth. Now the ques tion he wished to ask was, whether such removal had taken place ? also, whether it was the intention of the Govern ment to remove those parties immediately out of the kingdom? The Hon. FOX MAULE, in reply to the state ment of his Hon. Friend, had only to say that it was quite correct as to those persons having been removed from Nlonnionth to the Hulks at Portsmouth. The Govern ment having decided on the punishment of those indivi duals, it was judged necessary that no time should be lost in carrying it into effect. POST-OFFICE REGULATIONS. Sir C. KNIGHTLEY complained that th, new Post office regulations were attended with irregularities and inconvenience. In the course of tha last week not fewer than four !etters of his own had miscarried ; and ho knew of an instance in which a letter, addressA to a gentleman Eying in Charles -street, was charged two-pence in addi tion to the pre-paid penny. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that if the Hon. Member would have the goodness to com municate to the authorities at the Post-office, inquiries would be immediately made, and steps taken to prevent the recurrence of such irregularities. THE LATE DUKE OF YORK'S DEBTS. Mr. LEADER said that he had been requested by se veral of his constiruents, who were creditors of the estate of the late Duke of York, to inquire whether the proceeds of certain mines at Cape Breton, which had been adjudged by the law authorities of England to be the property of the Duke, were applied to the purposes of the State, or, as they ought to be, to the liquidation of the illustrious Duke's debts ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he was not at the moment able to answer the question, but he would make in quiry, and give an answer as early as be could. IMPORTATION OF FOREIGN COFFEE. An HON. MEMBER begged leave to ask the Right Hon. Chancellor of he Exchequer whether it was con. templated to take any steps to prevent Foreign Plantation Coffee, which had been imported into British Colonies, from being imported thence into Great Britain under the name of British Plantation Coffee ? Mr. LABOUCHERE thought it would not be right of the Government to express any opinion on the subject till he was prepared to say what measure they would bring forward. Mr. ROCHE begged leave to ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether he were about to bring forward any measure with regard to the importation of foreign flour into Ireland. Mr. L ABO OCHE RE was anxious to give the House an opportunity of discussing the subject. He had accordingly given notice of his intention of bringing in a I3ill with respect to it almost at the commencement of the present Session. He would postpone the second stage of the Bill, in order to enable Hon. Members for Ireland to ascertain the principles of the measure. Mr. LEADER said that in consequence of an answer which had been given by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies he should give notice that he would to-morrow call the attention of the House to the petitions regarding Frost, Jones, and Williams. Mr. BAINES wished to know whether the President of the Board of Trade were prepared to place on the table of the House the Report of Dr. Bowring on the Prussian League. It was, he thought, a matter of great importance that that document should b e produced. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he had no communica tion with his Noble Friend the Secretary of the Colonies on the subject. He could not think, however, that there would be any difficulty in:the way of laying the document on the Table of the House. PRINCE - ALBERT'S NATURALIZATION BILL. Lord JOHN RUSSELL then moved the Order of the Day that the House should go into Committee on Prince Albert's Naturalization Bill. The House went into Committee, and the Bill was then read a third time, and passed. Education. The Hon. Mover had alluded to no lees than did not know how the House could better employ its tiros be granted to him, on the subject. Th e nex t p o i n t h e f i f teen t o pi cs o f i nqu i ry f or th i s Committee, and to these than in considering the d es seated and wide-spreed mg, would refer to was one of the most i m p or t an t—r ee effect t h e lion. p- Seconder had a dd e d severa l more, suc h , f or i n- di scontent t h at at present existed among th e working of the strikes on th e m a n u f ac t uring wor k men. I n stance, as the extension of the franchise--primogenitur e — classes. He hoped therefore it would receive the earl y Sheffield, great numbers of th em h a d b een re d uce d t o di e - t h e currency, and the Corn-laws. lie would say that it and anxious attention of the House.—( Hear. ) tress through the trades having be en d r i ven awa y. Th e was qu i te i mposs ibl e for any Committee to sit and report Mr. WAKLE Y thought the motion was of so extraor. cue workmen had, by th e ir o wn v i o l ence , re d uce d t h emse l ves w i t h ut ili ty on so many important subjects, any iof which dinary a character that the House would not have He t to penury, But no means had been gi v en o f secur ing th e was ent i t l e d to a separate consideration—besides, he to its details for more than a very f ew m i nutes. be trades against fluctuatio n s. A Bill h a d b een passed to thought if the inquiry was to be undertaken at all, her hewed if a Committee wan appointed in accordance vi w_ t ith . enab,e the working-cla s ses t o esta bli s h B ene fit societies, Majesty's Ministers were the only proper persems to direct its terms, that Committee might sit for thirty years_eishe to secure themselves provision against such variations ; but it. If the Committee were appointed he hoped the Merv,- out coming to any practical or satisfactory result. He ono they did not seem aw are o f it. Th e e xperim en t had been bars for Durham and South Northumberland would be on upon a Committee for two Sessions involving 0 0 n n 1...... tbe tried, of a society which gave a premium on the deposits it, as those districts, what with colliers, seamen, and menu- point included in the Hon. Gentleman's m otion —the of the workmen, and the experiment had so well succeeded facturers, contained an enormous population of the labour- working of the Poor-laws—and without investigating the that more than 800 families had, in a few years, joined it ing classes, twentieth part of the subject, they made a report %_s_l 7. l There never was a fluctuatio n i n the d eman d f or l a b our ai r . HUM E thought it was incumbent on the House to was not and could not be satisfactory to any one.. hY, without producing strikes, a n d consequ en tly violence. He inquire what ought to be undertaken by the Ministers. the proposed Committee would be a Committee sitting on held in his hand a return of the fluctuations in the demand Her Majesty, i n h er sp eec h fr om th e th rone , b a d a ll u d e d " the miseries of human life. "—(Hear, hear.) The work for labour in vari o us dist r i c t s , an d th e strikes that had to the state •f insubordination and contempt, and to the ing classes knew we!! the sources of their present discon taken place in the course of a number of years, the result distress existing in manufacturing districts, and had s t a t e d tent, arid they knew that the House also was aware of which had been to drive th e i r b es t manufactur e rs from that she confidently relied on their loyalty and wisdom for of it, but that they would not take the matter the country ; but he would not trouble the House with the the promotion of the true interests of the empire. Would seriously into their consideration, not having either details. But there were reasons why they should now take the House be acting in accordance with that recommends- the disposition or the capacity to apply the remedy.— up the question, with a view to legislating on the subject, tion of her Majesty if they did not make this inquiry. He ( Hear.) The people knew that there was excessive taxa beyond any other period, and the first of these was the regretted to say that a petition which had been present e d don, that there was a system of Corn-laws which mode great and increasing competition of foreignmanufacturers ; to that Rollie last year signed by 1,200,000 persons had not food 40 or 50 per cent. dearer than it ought to be, that many articles which were previously exclusively manufae- me t attention, and to the neglect manifested by the House there had been a profli ga t e expendit ure , a nd cruel and tured by them being now manufact ure d in Switzerland, on that occasion, he attributed a great deal of the existing useless wars which had entailed an enormous National Dsht Germany, and other places. The next ground was the discontent. The artisans were not so ignorant as the upon the coun tr y. N ow , t o n one o f th ese would 048 constant immigration of Irish labourers into the large Honourable Gentleman thought they were they House ventu re t o apply a reme dy. If th e Comrnit' , ce manufacturing towns, who b ecame th e i r r i va l s i n th e l a - possesse d k now l e d ge an d activity, and were well was appointed, he was satisfied that it w ou ld be productive beur market, and the House might rest assured that un- aware of the situation in which they were -- he of nothing bnt disappoi n t men t a n d d e l us i on , and he should less they raised up these persons (as he hoped they wou ld cons id ere d t h at t h e N o bl e Lord, when he brought for- therefore oppose the motion. be able to do) to their own level they would pull the Eng- ward the Reform Bill, had raised hopes which had since Sir H. VERNEY thought the Hon. Member had lith labourer down to theirs, H e held in his hand a rc- been disappointed. In bringing forward that Bill he had intr o d uce d t oo man y su bj ects i n t o hi s motion, which it turn of the number of Irish labourers who had been said that, according to the ancient constitution of the would be impossible for any Committee to investigate, and landed at the p or t o f Li verpoo l f or the year endin g March country, taxa ti on a nd repr e sent a ti on s h ou l d go together, he was, on that ground, inclined to vote against it. He 1136—the numb er th a t y ear was 74,340, of whom only He believed the No bl e L ord was sincere in the expecta- should, therefore, move as an amendment, on the sugges -50,400 returned t o I re l an d. Th e num b er l an d e d i n the t i ons w hi c h he had excited, b u t a f ter seven years the tion of the Noble Lord J. Russell) that a Select Com year ending March 1a37, was 45,500, o f w hom 41,200 people complained that they had been disappointed, and mittee be appointed to inquire into the condition o f the returned. The n um b er l an d e d i n th e year ending March they ha v e been denied a remedy. Housa salt_ working classes in the populous manufacturing and mining 1838, was 45,473, of whom only 39,250 returned. The ported monopolies w hich che c k e d commerce, and pro- districts. reduction in the number landed, as shown by that return duecd stress. Therefore h e t h ought that the House Mr. BAINE S seconded the amendment, an d con'- in the course of a few years, was owing. he cr elieved to the was bound di to instit u t e inquiry. The working classes planted of the state of the sewerage in many of the improved condition of the labourers in the South and W es t w ere not incensed ag a i nst our institutions so much as large manufacturing towns , by which t he health of of Ireland, of which he (Mr. Slay) h a d witnessed man y against th e abuses o f t h ose institutions. And it was his, the working classes was seriously dete riorated. instances lately. To show the large number of Irish that (A Fl ume's) honest conviction that no intuir as to lie was decidedly in favour of. the motion , lim ited as it were permanently located in the country, he would state their situation could really be beneficial which did , that the number resident in Liverpool was 40,000, in brace the great que s ti ons of such monopolies as the Corn- that it would be advisable that they should g ive the y not em- had been by the Hon . B a ro ne t. It has been j ustl y said Manchester 60,000, in Glasgow 50.0 00 , with a very large laws, a n d o f the extension of the franchise. Te Go- labouring classes habits of providing in their humble pros additional number in the surrou nding districts; in Birming- verument had been accused by Sir James Graham of perity for the days of distress. With the views he enter favourable to Chartist rinci less He Nlr. Hume) hasp from,2o to 25,000, and in Greenock 10,000. Now, after being r a ined, he cordially coincided in the amendment of the the-statement he had made of the destitution of the work- wished they were more favourable P to those principles than Hon. Baronet. The question had, perhaps, been at first ing classes, he trusted the House would feel satisfied that they were ; they would th ere b y inc rease the peace and expressed in terms too general, but in its amended form it was their d u ty t o g i ve some a id an ass istance to these the contentedness of the people. He was sorry that Chartist he thought that its adoption might lead to great advantages persons to enable them to ensure themselves from the great should be so generally spoken of as unreasonable.—( Cries to the humbler classes of the people. calamities which were about to overwhelm them. It was of " Oh, oh.") Unquestionably some of the advocates of Mr. SL A 7s . EY rose, and said he was satisfied with the for their own interest and safety t o do so. There was lino_ these p rinc i p l es had used language quite unjustifiable. amendment of the lion. Baronet. ther point connected w ith these strikes, and he hoped it Yet it was no more fair to throw the odium of that upon The amendment having then been put, would receive the attention of the House, se as to the whole Chartist god}' than to . rest upon the Conserve- Mr. WA K LEY said he was sorry that the Noble Lord, enable them to bring about some satisfactory adjuetment of tive party in general the y re reproach of the discreditable lan. the Secretary for the Colonies, bad not addressed the House the differences by which they were created. lit France guage whi c h h a d bee n ern i plo3 ed by some of that party. after the amendment had been proposed. The Noble they had a Council or Tribunal composed of ;ill equal Certainly, if the Charti s t s had - ta k en hi s a d v ice their de- I Lord could not intend to support that amendment. It number of masters and workmen to whom all differences of mends would ' have been more moderate. For, while he I was well known that in the mining districts and the large thast sort were referred for adjustment. IL - that agreed th a t every Englishman h a d a r ight to state boldly t owns th e p en p ie were i n a state of great distress and some such Tribunal should be established in this country, those which he considered to be his rights, he yet con- commotion. But was there no distress in the agricultual and which he was certain milt be productive of the most siderod that they thould not press demands so utterly in. districts, and were the farmers, because trey were not in Hear, hear.) He knew how • beneficial effects.—( tiresome consistent with the opinions of the vast majority of their a state of disturbance, to be treated with neglect by the details of that nature must be to the House, but he fellow count;men, that they excited resistance even to House? He had himself just received a letter from a felt the importance of the question, that I and, caring littl e ho w thos e clai ms which would be admitted just. No change gentleman in Devonshire, from which he learned his opinions might be treated by one side or th e oth er o f wou ld result in any country, of a beneficial nature, unless wages there amounted to no more than 61. or 7s. a w_ee the House, he was resolved to do hi s d uty ,_ (Hear.) it arose from the conviction of the majority. Was it 'us' The same might he thought, be said of other districts' From the Report of the Comm ttee on Ed ucation, it ap- that five o f s i x ma l es s h ou ld have no political righ j t s ' ; i H e would not support the 1 = 0116110 ' 1 ; peered that in Manchester the church room 'el did not be con fer c was s uc h a state o f t hi ngs cou ld n ot exist in the present to be made on the subject, tie hoped it won. n tend to for 26,000, while the number who had no• but that it would ex accommodation altered condition of the working classes. On these grounds fined to a single class, and if inquirY `sae LO l, lad do