The Sun. — London, England, 1806-07-15 00:00:00

, 4/- Nic . ,:a§ agreed to. - • FINAisICIAI, RESOLUTIONS. been proposed at a afferent period of the Session, •iv'hen there , would have been a faller attendance of - ,• Members to discuss'.its- merits. Mr. HUSKISSON - trusted the Hon. Gentleman would believe that he had no wish to take the House by surprise. These taxes'were always the allowed means of raising the stipply and the House would still retain_ the right of directing how that supply should be appropriated: -- • ' • - Lord H. PETTY,- while he declared : that' he could .not perceive how the proposition .of the Hon. Gentle Man would be attencied with inconve nience, yet allowed that. it would be an abandonment of privilege' on the part of' the. House ; he suggested whether it Would not be the •preferable method to adjdarri ihecOnsideration of these Resolutions pritil. they were printed. , . Mr. ROSE did' not think the proposition of his Hon. Friend-was open to the serious objeCtions that had been urged against it. . ' ' /1/1 - 7 .BAKER did - not wish that the public should' be deceived do this, business, but that they should linow whetller. they were paying an annual or a, per manent tax. He should certainly sax nay to the , pjoposition of the Hon. Gentleman. ... Mr. YORE was rather inclined to move the previous question. The Resolution would then stand on the Journals, and next Session it might be inquired how. far the proposed change was prac-' LA)le. - . . . . . . .ffr.'BASTARD was averse - to' abandoning any, che , ..;« that the House possesSed to. the 'power of the crown; and therefore would not agree to; entertain Ole rtesolutiOdat all. r. liuskissON explained. PEfiCIVAL observed, that all'the tionS - were, in his opinion, unexceptionable, but the iiresent.. He wished the House to, retain its power over the means by which the money was to flow into +213 Eichequer as well as over the subsequent aP-, iiropriation of it. To simplify the making up of the Vublie A.Ccounts was midoubtedly a desirable obje&; but it was a very inferior,one when compared 'Willi the abandonment of any "of the privilegeS of Parlia- hierrt • • INIn'T-Itistusso'N finding the sense of the . 1 1- louse was against him, proposed -to 7ith - draw the ReLo7: ' . •. • After 1114 words frOni Mr. BAKER, and a short explanation by Mr. HusKissoN, the. Resolution Was i‘vithdrawii. A concluding Resolution to the followirg-eitea : That in the Ae&iunt annually laid before Par:- _liament of the :disposition of Grano, the amount of.each-, should be specified separately, and .dis t:lalv," Was then proposed by Mr, HiSKASSON. "Zr availed hitnS'elf of .this opportunity to observe, tllzit it was impossible.to follow the Re ,§olutions 3§ they were read ; he sUggested the pro priety of printing Ahem before, they were agreed to, inorti eq eciiilly as there was urgent neces sity .for_thr.;tr being immediately agrc;l to by llutise".• • 7 17:; , ST'EAKER reminded the'Hon. Gentleman, VIA by constant practice the House, every 11(i()1u;',013 was . printed. No Resolution had the tbrec or Law ; it was merely a _recorded opinion, which the House might subsequently change. ' BA KER . hoped - ,the - Hon. Gentleman did not mean to originate any Bills, on :these Resolutions durni; , t he present Session. • •-• * Mr. oN replying that he did not, the Re= 3fr..7QH,YSTOINW that the Resolutions Gentlemaii did not 0-o'so far as he had • N.pe&d; would subMit, to the House Resolutions to the National Dbt, B,:e. similar to those 'which be had On-a former. occasion proposed. He thi's . witliont'notice, because it was his intention, ituniediatelyatter the reading - of the first Solution, to tnei,' , 6 that the Debate ou it should be adjourned so a futureday. Thu first-Resolution was then read, and the Debate was adjourned to Friday. COMMITTEE OF 6UPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES. On - the Motion of Lord IL PETTY, the House re , .. Aolvecr ,into a' Committee of . Supply, to, which :the Eititn ,<as respe&ing the Addition of 41... y to the sArin3' we'd referred. The i .SE,c,4IETRY : WAR then rose to move, cer- RestAntiOns'on this-head, which he trusted would `meet with the unanimouconcurrenc.e of the House. Triield* rate of pay of Officers of Infantry was a sub jea on Which all must be agreed, that it was a won der ho :v they h:id been hitherto able to subsist. The patience With which they had waited for some addi ",tion , to :their pay was so exemplary as ' to call for tile approbation of the House .and of the Country. Even the increase which was .now c proposed was • -not, however, to be considered .as an'adequate re fortheir services. This 'would require a much ; larger, addition'; but the present situation of the country, whicit.called for the utmost economy, ad .mitted that•such increase only should take place as ' :was required by absolute necessity ; and he was con.: r ylnced drat it would be rather a sitbjeia of, regret than of .stitisfaecion that the proposed addition • was: so The increase,, besides was td be partial only, and, rtpt general, and was only to_extend to those whose pay was inadequate to their situation. Not v:itletitudieg the nobler claims I.vhichgaiceis halt() respect,' arising from the nature of their' profess ion -aid theii honourable services, yet all must inow, that itnless enabled to support 'a certain rift - 11C in SO . 'niety, they, would not meet with general reSpeo from the \vorld, -and thus the strongest discourage Merit be held out to a profession which deserved so well of the country. HiS first - Resolution related to an'ilicreiise of the pay oSOffieers; of Infantry..' The st.:Cond'Propose'd an-addttion to the pensions orbffi . - ects' 7 Widows ; and the third related to the increased ;jay of Seieants, Corporids, and Privates, and, the ad ', 'Oition-fo 'lie Chelsea l'ensian. The grounds on which 'these +^.q been statCcr iii the coats;, of the discuSsions nit the Mutiny Bill. It was als_O proposed that cv,eyy, Field Ojieer, c 9.11- lijaWin4a y egiment for tlie should have, dur: an' additioe. iiday. This -,v'aS .r6aiilectOtild principle r,.. eing enahlJd to sup 'Fe rt a her degyee: of rank. It was, besides, thbtigi r, that $ll9l-31tEbolitvide to.-the pvy •kr3ll:p"fains "of-a certain Arm, - Army. ~4 t ,ftt'4.:‘ ten . -Telars...6o , it; 4e ,Irable that , some i I - lava:le' of p r y s'honl4. - lake p 4 pros tat, •c , ,,Fte , otitit , d to .c;&..1-4.4:g.i0x.;-,:ifet.stajoi-,tald it vas prciposed T. 1 .14 they silo* receive an addition of 2s. per day, It was also proposeA to grant an adclitiona! allowance to Lientenar of, ~,even years standing. During war, promotion advanced with so much rapidity, that there were seldom any instances of ,this sort, hnt in Peace the case wal ditidrent, and promotion became m6re slow rite - nee, there was an evident propriety in making some addition. He 'then/6n eluded with moving, thatthesum of 161,7001.95. i id: -be-granted-for defraying the expence of these addi tional allowances for 183 days, from the eath'June to December 24. ' Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY made several ob servaCkons on the pay of ,SnbalternS in the Guards, which he contended was too.small. He thought also that the lowest sum on which an Ensign could sub sist was ss. 8d: per day. • Mr. WINDHAM thought the common opinion incorrect, which went to regulate the pay of Officers exaaly by subsistence,' and to increase the pay of the lower order :for the purpOse of bringing them nearer the higher: All thiS seemed founded ona false as.; sumption. The consequence,of -the present system was, that- none could enter the Army as Officers who bad not something else besides their mere pay. This was important in a constitutional view, since it pre 'vented them from becoming mere mercenaries, and gave them an interescin the country which they de fended. Besides, thetehad been no difficulty of late in procuring Officers, even when the pay was con fessedly more inadequate than it was now proposed to be made.. But it was also an object of importance that Subalterns should look forward to something higher, when their emoluments might be better proportioned ta their expenditure. The ground of the whole system was, that the pay of - Officers,. though not generally adequate, might yet be so in particular instances, by means of extraordinary eco nomy. Thus, in addition to those who entered the: - army with some property of their own, there might be others, impelled; perhaps, by a strong militaryincli , nation, though destitute of all other resources, who might go on for a time, by dint of rigid economy,and struggle - through the situation of Subalterns, till they arrived at a higher rank., It was not thought neces, sarY that :an easier species of admission should be granted to the lower ranks of society.: Young men , also, who entered the Army,' generally received that assistance from their relations,' 'which at-a more ad vanced period was not to be expected, and'were then_ better able to submit to privations of every kind, while the increase of their pay would advance in proportion to their rise in their profession. He-had no .doubt that .a sufficient . number of Individuals would always be found possessed of Magnanimity enough to bear these inconveniencies, with the pros pea of improving their- situation in the Army.•--- These were the grounds on which the present scale of additions was calculated. • • 4ord -DE ,BLAVIIIERE Observed, that having spent the best-part of his life in the Army, he had a fellow-feeling for all those who belonged to it, and could notbut admire the wonderful addition of Is - .ld. per day to -Field Officers. This pittance would not enable them Ao pay the tax on property, which had been *posed dtiring the pfesent Session, since every Officer who received 2001. a year would have to pay 201. out of -it. He could have wished, that a still larger addition had been made to-the pay of Captains. The SECia:TARY at WAR replied, that besides his increase of pay, every-Field Officer was to receive forage for one horse. In answer to what had fallen from an Hon. General, with regard to Officers of the Guards, he ObServed, that -as they had universally private fortunes of their . own,, they did not need-the present addition ; and he could speak from his own knowledge of that body, 'acquired from long service in it, that they- would disdain the idea of serving for money alone. But , the alhiwance of forage for one horse' was also to be extended to them.. Lord Tpii , J.F. wished-to know what addition was to be made o the pay of the Militia Officers ? - The SECRETARY -at WAR .replied that the in crease was, only to 'extend -to Subalterns, on the, -principle that the Field Officers must .by law be men of. fortune. Sir A. WELLESLEY repeated his former observa tions with regard -to Officers of the Guards ; which again called up ' - Mr. IVI.NDHAM, who observed, that if people could be found to fill the rank ,of Officers- without pay, and actuated by the love of honour and distinc tion alone, it would be so much better. But since this was not-to be generally expected, they must be in fluenced: by the mixed consideration of pay and honorary .distinaions. Now the higher rank of Of ficers in the Guards was really one of these consi derations by which men are apt to be influenced. Mr. FRANCIS wished to know whether it was meant to reimburse 'Officers for-the expense -of the 'Property Tax ? If this was not done, what the House . gave with the one hand it took away with the other. Mr. WINDHAM replied, that this was a subject which could only have came before the House with propriety when that tax was discussed. Lord TEMPLE , expressed his 'regret, that his Right Hon. Friend had not found it possible to ex tend the addition to Captains in the -Militia. Of late. the .difficulty of procuring them had been so great, that : Colonels in the Militia had been em- _powered by At of Parliament to take Captains from half-pay of the Line, and many Subalterns had also been promoted to that rank who had not the usual qualification inland. But- as no alteration could be :made in the present_ Resolutions, there was only one reinedy which conic be applied, and that was by ad .dresipg the Crown, that a similar addition might also be. extended to them. Unless. such an aug mentation should "take place r he pledged himself .to - submit a Motion on the subject, in the next Session of Parliament, - - Mr. WINDHAM acknowledged that there was a certain.nuoa,ber. of the Militia Officers of, the &scrip iion4hat had been mentioned. But.besides that they had not_passed„throngh any, Khordinate situations, it was'improper that the interests of a few-should pre-: vent.any general regulation:with regard to that body. 1 ',Colonel CRAUFORD observed, that this difficulty in procuring Officers •vith the legal qualification arose from the late .great extension.ot the Militia, and when they were diminished, the difficulty would cease.— The Resolution was then agreed to. „ A second Resolution,_ granting 4 Slim of E:2:gl, 295. 3d. fbr defraying - the Of increased Pen sionsto-Officers' Widows ; and a third, granting a Sum of SC,DQOI. to cover theincreased charge of the Ont-pensnners of liclsca'ijospital', were al,t) agreed, tO, and the Report was olered to be received t 6,. 4)ol-r9w, - • . . . On / the:Motion of Sit' CHARLES POLE, leilve was g:aa . ted to bring ia a Bill for Preventing Nuis4nces and linpedi:nents in public Harbours. ' MILITIA OFFICERS' PAY BILL. Mr:WIND' HvAheil moved the Order of. the Day for the House going into a Committee on the tia Officers' Pay Bill. • Sr IP" ELPOPD stronljeassUo_the..present f3ill,on the ground of its making a distiu&ion between , the Militia and the Army, that.was utterly inconSist- , enf with those Aas of Parliament. on Which the Mi litia was established. It was founded On, the absurd principle that men .of fortune should accept no re muneration for those services :Which they.rnight per form to the Mk. But supposing, for a moment, that . a Gentleman Of large fortuti e, in the County of Norfolk' for instance, should be appointed one of the Secretaries of State, and that his colleagues should propose to him, that he'should, perforrn' the duty Without any salary, he had no doubt that fir,: proposition would appear to him very absurd. The Militia, he contended, were placed on the same footing with the Army, and 'the Officer, .withoufdistinaion, were equally entitled to the same additional pay that might, be thought pro 7 ' per to bestow on those of the Regulars. Was it not, dangerous to innovate on what had been determined, by the wisdom of our ancestors,• and what, besides, had given general satisfaCtion _lt was not so much. tlie idea of paythat was to be considered, as the dis - tinetion which was now proposed to be made, which he.was convinced would sow the seeds,of discord in the Militia. .11 , 1 i• YORKE contended,' that this Bill might have, been brought in Weeks and months ago, when 4.15r,e, Was a full attendance of Mernber3,,and particularly of those who were conne&ed with the Militia serOce. On this g round alone he would oppose the SPEAKER'S leaVing the Chair. The Right Hon. Gentleman had already struck , ..a • blow at the Volunteers, as much, perhaps, by the manner in which he had introduced his measures, as by the bbjeas which they had in view, and now he made a- similar attack on the Mi litia service, while, from the thinness of the House, he thought himself exempted from. the necessity of 'defending the measure. He then- took-a vieeveof• the arguments against the Bill, and concluded with ob serving, that the invidious distinaion now Proposed to be established -would not' 'save more than 5000 L to the country. .. • • • Colonel BASTA RD contended that: 'the present measure, was a - breach of the faith of Parliament, which was pledged when the:Militia. was firit.raised, that they shoold . be on the same-footing in all- respects with the Army. Their services were kept, while they weie deprived of thdse privilege- to : which they were entitled. The distinction now prppoSed was odiOus, and for a pitiful saVipg, the Whole,Militia service was to be disgusted. , - Lord TEMPLE totally differed from the opinions of the Hon..gentletrian,and disclaimed his .assistance on the terms he had mentioned; he could not approve that wanderingg - Manner with which Gentlemen on the other side seemed determined, whatever was' the Ties', tion, to inveigh against expressions said to have been used by his Right Hon. 'Friend (Mr. Windham) respea ing the Volunteers. Those topies were now intro duced into every debate. He would, however, leave it to the House, from' which side the expressions now caMe, which had an obvious tendency to irritate the Volunteers, and to disgust ,them ? Who were the men who noi,,c avoided all conciliating language,, and who appeared to wish to diminish both. the . numbers and the : spirit of the Volunteers ? There was an ob jeaio6, however, whiCh he had to thel3lll;and that was, that it gave to Volunteer Officers, when called into eaiori, superior advantages to what the Officers of the Militia .would' have. Mr. BANKES said that he should him - self make no observation, but he would leave it to -the~ House to judge, on the manner and tone with which' the Noble Lord (Lord Temple), upon this, and indeed 'almost upon every Occasion, reprehended those who differed with him in opinion. The souse would discover on what ground his title to give such lectures rested, whether it was on his -su periOr :a i bility, or his great experience. It ap. 'peared to: hint, that it was too late in the Ses sion (when the extraordinary pressure of business was Considered) to bring - forward a measure which might disgust such a considerable body of men Who_ formed the constitutional army of the country. As to the economical. saving, he considered that it was a mere trifle when compared to the serious mischief of disgusting the Militia. He thought that a mea sure of such moment should not have been 'brought forward'at such an advanced period of the Session, when a regular and decent, attendance of Members could not be expeaed, • Mr. Secretary if INDHAM took a review of the • objeaions that had been urged by different-, Gentle men, from the temperate and argumentative speech of an Honourable Baronet (Sir W.' -,Elford), to the i n t e mperate, unreasonable; uninteresting, and (as he conceived) most unargomentative speech of a Right Hon. Gentleman (My. . Yorke). , He differed from the Hon. Baronet in , the whole view of the - case. In- Stead 'of considering it an innovation on : any funda mental principle, it appeared to be one of those mere matters of. discretionary , regulation which was al ways supposed to be Completely e open to the wisdom of Parliament. It had been laid down as the gene ral rule, that the Militia were to have the same .- pay as the Army. It should, however, be. recolle6ted, that this role was not tbunded upon any constitu tional principle, lout merely as the words ,of ail A& of Parliament.. It 'was therefore to. be. codsidered, what were the words of the mt, and •what wa's the' meaning of it ? Were,' Called out ac- Cording to. Law, but as there before existed no Law to determine what provision should beassigned for them, the A& of the 42d of the King 'Stated, that that should be the same aswas allowed to the Army. The Meaning of the' A6t,was clearly, that as it was necessary to assign them some provision, the Legis lature thought, that what the Armytheßreceived was not too much. In: assigning them that for'their pro . yision,. the Legislature never meant to tie up the baodi - of the Sovereign, or prevent his increasing the pay of any Other 'description of his fOrce. If it was contended, that on . . account of the words of this ;,.61, the King could'not now make any .provi sion for any other description of force which should not.etend to the Militia . , the - conclusion appeared to him a non sequitur. That . His. Majesty might. fram'timn to tit - ne t -Make alterations with respect to one part of-'his force -which should 'not er4end to the other, was a thing agreeable to reason, and to the fad, In reason, it could not be contended, 'that Regular tro43, who ' Were liable to he•calle - % -at a moment's notice; to serve their Country abroad;. ' in unWholesonie climates, and exposed to d were not in a 'situation vei'y diffeent from thelki litia, who could not be ordered out, - of the Coon try ; if then their situation was ,different, it would . not be unreasonable if there should be some differ once in their allowances, _ln . point of fa4 e _too, .a - difference had always existed. The Officers of the. Regular Army were entitled to half-pay;- when Militia Officers were not. The Field Officers of the, Militia, however, made no Complaint. It was not so much a difference between •the Regulars - , and • as between One- .part of the Army and another. As to the Hon., Gentleman (Mr. Yorke); lie 'must Say, that - With whatever gravity, of mariners, 'or tone of authority; the chase to lecture him upon xihat vas. his duty as a Minister and a: Member of Parliament, the whole weight and importance of his leadies depended upon the' strengtliof thearo - uments' he adduced, 'and' if his argument were altogether feeble,it was in vain, for him' to take the tone or: Manner of authority. The mode which the Hon.. Gendernan had- adopted might serve as an' useful . example, not to . folloW; but to avoid. • The thing,. however, which seemed' most to have offended .the Hob: Gentleman, was, that he Seemed io' think' that he (Mr. - Windham) , had not, received his arguments with all that attention, deference, and respect' which he, 'no doubt, thought Was due to, them: It was impossible for' Ministers, or any other 'men, tO -- direCt their, whole attention, in the course .a long debate, to' every Word that came from those Gentlemen on the .opposite benches. Sometimes the very busineSs of debate itself would oblige them to:converse a little with -those who 'sat near them. He believed that it wasreally some cfnervation arising out of, the debate which might have caused for a Moment 'that apparent inattention of which* the Hon. Gentleman . (Mr. Yorke) so loudly complained.. • Mr-1'0121;E, in explanation, said he 'was ready to apologize to the HOkl3e, if he had made use of any uriparliamentary expression : he certainly- had, felt a considerable indignation at a husifiess of such; importance being brought forward so late in the Ses- - siOn. This indignation he meant to express with . the freedom which•heeame a Menther of Parlia- - rhent, and he hoped he • had not transgre i ssed the proper boubds. eHe had eke conceived that he saw a marked , inattention from the Honourable Secretary, With which he confessed that he felt him self very rnuch hurt. Since the Right .I;jonourable Secretary had, hwalever, asclaiteed what he con ceived to have been a marked inattention, he was ready to apologize to the House jibe had been guilty of any. irregolarity: • Mr. P.ERCIVAL thought the arguments of his Right Hon. Friend had been mis-stated. The great objedion. - to the'Bill which was now-presented to the HOUse was, that it was.upona subject of so much importance that it was not fair to bring it farward at-so late-a -period of the Session, when there could be but a very thin attendance of Members. It ap peared to him .that it would be very wrong in point of policy that .such, a measure should be brought forward at a time that: the-'Militia were. in*,arms and embodied. • It was then no time'to disgn.st, men when we lohked to ethem for services. 1-1' might be tolcl,.al he was the other night about the_Voln7 teer Drill Serjeants, that 'they might resign.' He doubted, however,'even whether these who asserted thatproposition coold venture to say, that ; the Mi liiia might resign. ,If then it was allowed that they could not resign, itnd that the terms, under which they entered were, that they should be on the same foo:ing with the Army, it would he a •violation of faith with them .to place them now upon a worse condition than the Army. Certainly no little saving 'in point of economy could compensate for the impolicy of disgusting such a Body 'as the Militia, at a time when their services were so nt:- cessa Mr.. ry GILES considered that all the obje•EtionS which were made to, eVery measure on account of thelateneis of the Session, amounted only to this question—Why did not the present Ministers - bring forward.' at once all -the measures which, they meant to introduce in the , conrse of the Session ? As to the breach of public faith that WM:so : much spoken of, he begged leave to remind Gentlemen; that- the IVlilitig was not a voluntary, but a com pulsory service ; and that if no particular faith was pledged to. the balloted men, certainly their substi tutes stood in no' better situation than they did. Of a man that voluntarily enlisted in • the Regular Artriy, it would be right 'to consider strictly the terms under which' he 'entered ; but the Militia .man, whether he is the balloted mail or the substi.e tute, enters into the service from the - compulsion of the - Law, and cab •Ciairn no other terms but what the Legislature chases ; to give. • Lord Da BeaunthaE 'rose, and spoke on many topics :- while he .was discussing the Vote of ',banks proposed on a for ner night to the Volunteers, Colonel ORAUFURD rose to speak to order, lie felt unwilling to interrupt the Noble Lord ;. but still, at such an advauted period of the Sessioh,. and at so late an hour at night, he thought the House ought, not to listen to arguments which, although they might have been very proper on Conner de bates, had nothing. to do with the question then before- the House. ,• • Tile - SPEAKER decideit - that the Noble Lord was not in order. . _ _ , _ Lord DR BLAcaniinE, then said, that as he was not , made of brass he Most bow to .the authority of the Chair. Atter a 'yariety ofoliseevations, he concluded by opposing the Bill. . • Mr. O'HutB was for :the,Bill. He vas sure that both the Field Officers- of the hliiitia and of the Voltuiteers'would cheerfully yield to any deduotioes that could tend to give the Country a greater dis posable force at the present - moment. _ Sir WM . ..LEMON; considered - that it might be the cause of much ~dis Content, that when ;he-Offi cers, of :"the Regulars. and itililitia ,messed together, the one would say, " We are superior tnyou- , --our pay iS'hi‘e,her.!!' • • • • - k;.4L/SQINIa - greed -in the sentiments of the Hon. Baionet who spoke last; 2nd thought' that it *mild :'be a s.ulejeEt of heart-iurniog, ,and might create, if not discord, 4least: a considerable degree aldissatistietion. Colonel 6 1 /L46FUND could not at all agree with the opioijytt (1' the Hon. Baronet, . S.) far frobl the Regular Officers being entitled to claim any supe iiority, on accoutlt'U# 4j4inaion, he thought the su-