The Sun. — London, England, 1806-07-19 00:00:00

for the sake of averting what might be detrimental to t1..3 anchorage, and of course to the commerce of the Country. - The Bill was then read a third time. On the question that the Bill do pass, , some farther conver-, sation took place, and Mt. Fos:rsa moved, that the Bill be confined to Great Britain. This, however, was passed from, and words were introduced limiting the restri&ion to all public har bours, and ", every river communicating therewith, so far as the tide flows up the same." The Bill was then_passed, and ordered to be car. 7 ried to the Lords. - On the Motion of the LORD ADVOCATE of Scot land, Houston .and Ca.'s Estate Bill :was read a : third time and passed. BARRACKS. The SECRETARY at WARinoved that there be laid before the House a Statement of all Sums received by the late. Barrack-Master General for the Rent.of Canteens and Sale of Dung. Mr. ROBSON remarked that it had fallen to his lot more than-once to move for, Papers, which, after being refused to be granted one day, vere on the following, or some subsequent day, moved for by 'Ministers. This he thought strange,. and wished to know the reason of it, He 'also obje&ed to the . „ hurl* with which the. Papers were sent off.to be . printed, by which Ile was prevented from having an opportunity of considering them,. and of preparing, for a Motion which he meant to make on the t.lb ,jeEt on Monday. was remarkable - that such Pa pers as that to :which he referred (the Second Re port of the Military Commissioners) were tie' er pre sented till within a few days of the rising of a Ses iion; by which means Members had no oppOrtnnity . of knowing, what. they 'contained till - the following Session. After some farther observations the Motion was agreed to. Lord H. PETTY expressed a wish to know what was to he the tenor of the Motion which the Hon. Member had hinted at, as likely to be made by him on Monday? Mr. ROBSON said, his Motion would be for more Papers relative to the peculations in.the Bar sack department. • He did not,• however, pledge himself to bring it forward on Monday, if he could hot have an opportunity of perusing the Papers al ready- before -the House; The SECRETARY AT \VAR presented the Papers which had been.ordered, on his Motion, to be pro duced. • Mr. PAULL repeated the assertion made by him on a former night, that Capt. Atkins, who' had been e meritorious Officer ; was' dismissed froth his em ployment in the Barrack Department without no tice, and without being heard, merely because' he had exposed frauds ,Which were praelising_ on the public. The SECRETARY AT WAR, denied this statement, and. said, that there were Papers on the Table which would shew that Mr. Atkins had been heard in his defence. Mr. ROBSON observed, that there was one affidavit to that effect and three to the contrary. After some farther conversation, principally on the point of Mr. Robson having inspeCtion of the Papers before they were printed, • - • The SPEAKER, on learning that the Paper hq principally ,wanted was the Report of the Military Commissioners, informed him that it had already been ordered to be printed. ' Sir JOHN SINCLAIR brought up the Second Report of the Committee on Broad Wheeled Waggons.= Ordered to be printed. Mr. P. MooRE moved for discharging part of an Order_of 13th June last, for productinn of certain Papers relative to India, and that certain other Pa pers be ordered to be produced.—Ordered. These were immediately presented. , Lord HENRY - PETTY moved that humble Ad- dresses bee-presented to His Majesty, praying that he would be"graciously pleased to order the following sums to be paid to the persons named in the diffe rent Resolutions, and that the House would make good the same. • . The, sum of 10001. to H. Alexander, Esq. - for his services as Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means. To Jeremiah Dyson, Esq. one of the Clerks of the House, such a sum as with his fees should make up the sum of muol. To J. H. Ley, Esq.'another of the Cleiks of the House, the cleat sum of 10001. To J. Clementson, Esq. s a sum as, together with the fees of his office, should amount to 5001. That there be printed 1750 Copies of the Journals of the House, and an Index thereto, under ihe care of the said J. H. Ley, Esq. That 3501.. be advanced to G. Whithatn, Esq. for making an Index to the Votes of the House. And that such conipensation as may be proper be granted to the Clerks of Public Committees during the present Session. Addresses on each of these were ordered accord ingly, to be presented by such Members of the House _ _ as were of His . Majesty's Most Honourable Privy' Council. PUBLIC CREDIT. , . Mr. JOHNSTONE,, having moved the Order of the Day for resuming the debate on the. Public 'Credit, said, it would not be - necessary for him — to trouble the House at any length on the subject. The whole was so clear that it only required to be looked at to be understood.' There wa r s little or no difference between his view of it and that of the Noble Lord opposite. In every.rnaterial, point they agreed. There was only one thing which he could pot forbear noticing, that•although it had been . said, at the commencement of the War, that no addi tion would thereby b e e tide to our debt, it had in creased 52 millions to four years. There Was ano ther circumstance Worthy of remark, that we had borrowed the same sum within the last four years as in the four years of War preceding. He concluded by moving, That 'it appeared that our Debt, 'on the Ist February, 1803, amounted to 567,800,9781. Lord H. PETTY did not Objea to the statement of the Hon. Gentle . man. He only begged it' to be observes; how much more :expensive materials - for carrying on war had become, and that the' War hid taken a new charaaer. • Mr. JOHNSTONE explained, that his surprise ra ther lay the other way, being Surpriied how little the increase had been. After a few words from Dr. LAWIIENC, on the Motion of ford H. Psi, the farther debate was adjourned till Monday. On the Motion of sieARTMIR AVELLESLEY; cer tain other Papers relatift to Gude' were ordered to be - laid bef6re the Houie. A Message was received from the Lords, stating that their Lordships had Agreed to the American Intercourse, Militia Service, Volunteer Officers, and a number of other public and private Bills. _ _ _ _ On the Motion of Lord HENRY PETTY it was or dered, that the House, at its rising, do adjourn till Monday. INDIA BUDGETS, On the Motion of Lord MORPETH, the Commit. tee on the Indian Budget was resumed. Mr. T. JONES thought that in the present con vulsed state of the Company's affairs the House ought to be informed how the debt clairhed by Go vernment against the Company, and by the Com pany against Government aCtually stood.---When - he was proceeding on this point, Dr. LAWRENCE called him to order, that not ling the•question before the House, which applied solely to the last year's expenditure. Mr. JONES maintained, he was in order, but professed his willingness .to yield to the Learned DoCtor, who was always so full of brevity. Mr. PAULL agreed that the statement made by the Noble Lord was the only fair one on the stsbjeEt for the last' twenty-two years. But even in it there were some mistakes. As, for instance, there was a sum of 7,710,0001. which became due in the year 1807, instead of the year 1810, as the Noble Lerd's statement made it. .Of course, the deficieocy for the two last years amounted to about 6,000,0001. Air. JONES asked if he .had a right to put a questiod? • Mr. HOBHOUSE said, he might pet any ques tion, but it would fest with the - person to whom' it was put to answer it or not, as he was inclined. Mr. TYRWHITT JONES hoped that he would not be thought pertinacious, but he wished to be allowed to make A few observations, as he stood pledged in some degree to the House on this subjeCt. He had ha 1801 stated that the debt of the Company .was 20 millions. This ,had .now clearly turned out to be the fait. He had then met with a great deal of opprobrium, and was asked to have patience : — He had had - patience, and the result was that the Company, as had been stated by an Hon. Alderman (Prinsep), 'was on the eve of-bankruptcy, and that their debt was nearer 40 millions than 30; He was therefore fully justified in what he had.saidi and the persons at the India'Board, whether they were called Comptrollers, or any thing else, would soon,, it ap peered, be only the assignees of bankrupts. Mr. JOHNSTONE said that there was no dan ger of a bankruptcy. He-Would not'.enter upon the particulars of the accompts, heWever,, as it was "painful to-him to lodk at the situation of the Com pany. But that, situation was still ,not so gloomy as it had been represented by the Honourable tleman. As to the loans, he hoped the persons who held themwould renew :their engagements, But 'he deprecated the • transferring them to this coun try, and warned the , DireCtors pot to ask such a thing of:Parliament, for the Minister of the dey 'would be strongly tempted to grasp at a share of the patronage, which would be dangerous to the liberties of this country. He begged the House to consider what would be the consequence of a patronage over e t oeo;ooolesterling, in addition to what was already possessed by the Government. Any inconVenience of tradewas,better than that the Minister should acquire such an extraordinary power. meant this as no particular refleCtion, but Mentioned it as applying to any Minister. As to the case Of Sir G. Barlow, his opiniOn was unaltered: Even though what the Hon. Gentleman (Paull) had said should be corre&, still his observations were proper. Ministers had gratuit ously appointed him on the 26th of February, and - removed him 14 days after.. Now why was he Sp pointed at all if it was in contemplation to remove him so soon ? All the powers of Governor-General would have remained with -him by devolution till the appointment of a successor, except the power of exercising the highest funelions of the office without the consent of the Council—a power so ex traordinary, that it had never been exercised. The charge,- therefore, remained in full force. Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY observed, that the Loans which the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Paull). stated would become - due in 1807, would, iii feet, not be due till 1809-10. In the MalsraLa war, the ex- pences had been great, but the services had also been great, and in no instance was there so much service at less expence. The Sinking - Fund in India had had g reat efficacy in keeping dotvn 'the diseount on the Government Securities, .and in enabling the , . Company to ootam Loans at a low.interest ; fact they had of late obtaiped, them at 8 per cent. Mr. pAuf,.4 observed, that they had not • tamed them at less than 14 per cent. and accounted for the. Hononiable General's mistake, by stating that more than two-thirds of the Loans were made at , LucknoW and Benares, and the security given_ on the Calcutta rupees, which Were of a higher value. He adverted to , the Charter of the Company, and contended that they were indebted-to Government in the suns of five or six milhoes, :aid that Govern- 7 went had a right to seize upon their buildings, plate, &c. &c. for the debt. It was not to be supposed that they were to have their Charter for nothing. Sir A. WELLESLEY explained: Mr. Alderman PRINgEI 3 agreed with the Hon. Ge neral that the Sinking Fund lowered the rate of inte rest in India, but could go with him ne further. Mr. GRANT observed, that as to the claini of the 590,004 a year from the Company, it was only to be paid out of the surplus revenue : of the Company at home, and the late Minister, who was sufficiently desirous of finding out any resource that could assist the supplies, was convinced, th e. under the circum stances of the case, the claim could not be siubstan •tiated. He admitted that the credit of the CoMpany hed been improved 'in India; and that loans we re *wade 'at a lower rate of interest. But the reason was, - that better security was given. Instead of bonds hi India payable at a very late period, Mar quis. Wellesley had given sechrity in England. He thought this, however; a very improper mode of proceeding, as 'it subjected thesCompany to sudden arid large demands, and besides, it was too .great a power- to entrust to any Governor, who might use, it as a recourse when he haa large views, to the detriment of the Company. , The Govern"ibeat at borne ought; indeed, to . restriel Governor-Ge_ peral on this pi,:ot, Aa"to saying that the Dirbetoa had approved . of this because they ',PO silent, he would'not enter upon this. -The {£2 bras, that they had long endured ninny thing-sad-which they did not approve. But he certainly was of opinion, that the giving this soreof security ought nbt to tike formed into a system. With regard to the exchange between Lucknow and ,Calcutta; he was inclined to agree with the Honourablee Gentleman — over the way (Paull). The exchange between Madras, the seve, ral Presidencies, and Calcutta, was very eltpensive ; and what with that and the bonusses, Iris would venture to say, that those loans were the most ex pensive ever made. With regard* to the Sinking Fund, it was not of the nature of the Sinking Fund in 'England, for instead of being composed of the produce of the taxes: raised for the purpose of supplying it, it was taken from the mass of the money which would have gone in some other shape to the discharge or diminution bf the debt, and therefore be did not think it of much use. • Mr. TYRWHITT JONES; Mr. PAULL, and Mr. GRANT explained. Mr. MARTIN commented on the constru&ion of the AG by which the Company .held their Charter, and said that it clearly appeared from it, that when the Company were in straitened eircum, stances the payment wat only suspended, and they now were debtors to the public for six millions. The only excuse must be their inability to pay, and he hardly thought that this excuse would be re sorted to, as it would amount to a confesSion that they had been insolvent ever since the year 1793. lIUDDLSTONE excused the non attends ance of some of the Dire&ors, on the ereitirid that they had been this day engaged for nearly eight haurs.iu very important business, But they knew that the Honourable Gentleman over the way (Mr. Grant) was to he here, and on the accuracy, of hiS states ments the House and the country might confi dently rely. He then entered upon a statement of the advantages derived by the - Country from the commerce -of the East India Company, in opposition to -what had been said, on a former night by an Honourable' Alderman (Prinsep) op.- posite to _ him.--,They exported woollen to the ' amount of 1,300,0001. at a heavy loss to them selves because it was a staple commodity, and thus afforded employment tO 40,000 men in this Coun try. They were even si,ibje& to a penalty for this ,extensive benefit to the Country,, for though this was a losing trade before, a' duty of fifty thousand pounds had been imposed upon it, and yet it was still continued. This they could not have done un's less they had had the interests of the cobritry more at heart than their own. In the 'exportation of this single article thenthey afforded employment to4O,VQO men, particularly in the Counties of Gloucester-and Devon, the Dutchy of Cornwall, and the City of Norwich, and paid 50,0001. annually Of dutyOpoti it. In addition to t his the Company paid three millions of duties for various articles into tl EzChen2Aer, and maintained i 0,0.00 Seamen, and thus encouraged that force on which the Country so much depended for - its support. The Company' had besides assisted in defending and enlarging our Dominions in India.: their Ships had' defeated thsiSe of the Enemy at the mouth of the Ganges,: they had defeated them in 1779 ; and at a later period it was we',l,knosvn what they had dOne in the China Seas. The use - of the Company was not, therefore, to, be judged of .merely by the profit and l ss as far as regarded themselves particularly: The Honourable Alderman had said that the Thames ought to be made the grand depot of Indian Commerce :. to which he had but two objections, namely, that it was imprac ticable, and that it would not be wise, if it had beep praelicahle.. It was the opinion of a late illustrious person (Marquis Cornwallis), that we ought not to, encourage the colonization of India from this CoUn-, try.' If the Traie, howevet, was thrown open to all, it would accelerate this event by at }east half a century. _The Commerce of the Company then he looked upon vast editice se wbich had withstood the rage of the elements, and sheltered and nou rished a great number of the most deserving ob. jests, and was at once the friend and the child of the State. But he by no means agreed with the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) in the tAnSiNet: which be had given to the Honourable Alderman. He des nied that the deranged state of the Company's Finances was owing to the Wars in India ; fOr out of thirteen years, of War mentioned by the Noble Lard, six bad been years. of Peace in India e and during part of that time the debt, instead of in creasing had adually diminished. The deranged, state of Finances he attributed to the late dreads fill Wars, 'and a negleG of due economy ; and the fruitful source of these was the system pursued by the late Governor-General—not intentionally, but from an error in judgment e —a system,of subsidiary alliances that is bringing the Native Princes under subjection to our Indian Government, and making f the Company's Revenues appear greater than they really • were, and increasing the expenditure upon the strength of that fallacious appearance. But the delusion was now over; and if the system of the Marquis Cornwallis was agaid acted upon— if we retraced our steps, he had no doubt the Finances of the Company might be brought .to a state of prosperity. Mr. Alder Man PRINSEP brought forward a num.: ber of collateral arguments and calculations in sup port of the statements which he had made on a former, night.. Mr. LLIUDDLESTONE explained. Lprd CASTLEREAGH, while he allowed that the Capital of the East India Company was inade quate to the extent of their commercial enterpriZes, yet contended that they were by no means in such a calamitous situation as that described by the ,Hon. Alderman. In support of his opinion he adduced the •credit in which the East India Company was gene rally held—evinced by the value of their Stock in this Country, and the estimation which their Paper enjoyed in India. Whenever a particular inquiry should be entered into, he,was convinced that the result would shew the flourishing state of their affairs. He repeated his wish that d great part of the debt in. India should be converted into European debt, and could udt., , ,Onceive on what ground such a proposition cuulS be opposed; and - he again urged the ad- Tantage which would attend the negotiation of a Loan for the Company . -by Government. One I;lclia_ Budget was i n a rr ear be trusted that it \ - ',';uld be brought forward as early as possible in the a. zt Session, and that His N.kkijesty's Ministers would be explicit in declaring theirvieWs and intend° is an the subject. Dr. LAO BENCE exposed the fallacy of the Esti mates which - had been laid before the House, and the flattering hopes that had been held out by th; Noble Lord on the subject of Indian Afffirs When lie was in Administration. Mr. 3'. JONES 'contended, that had the Admla nistration of India been properly conduCted, India would doubtless, by this time, have contributed considerably to the assistance of this Country, in stead of being in the state it now Nits. He con tended, that the Company Was in a state of insol vency, and Mainfained his opinion by a variety of illustrations, which excited considerable merriment in the House. Lord CASTI,EREAGEI and Dr. LAWRENCE ex plained, After much farther discusglon, in which Mr. W. Keene, Mr. Johnstone, Mr. Grant, Lord Morpeth, and Mr. Alderman Prinsep participated, the Resolu tions were agreed to. The House having been resumed, the Report was ordered to be received on Monday. A Message from the 'Lords declared their assent to the Linen Drawback, the Bell Rock Lighthouse, the London Port,, and the Masters in Chancery's Bills, without any Amendment; and also their Lordshipl assent to the Philanthropic Society, and the . Bankrupt Regulation Bills, with several Amend ments, to which they desired the . concurrence of that House. - Accounts of the Salaries of several Public Officer; were presented at the Bar.--Ordered to be printed, and to lie on the Table. Adjputp,ed at One o'Qocls till Monday next. MAILS. AAR.IVED-1 Dublin, 2 Water tbrd. DvE HAmburglx 4 A Guttenburgn, t Dublin, z ‘Vi.it4rlni:d. PRICE OP STOCKS THUS DAY AT TWELVE o'cLoo4. - Cms.ol4 - ~. •- -6; i Oinniqui -• . . 6i rr HE SUN. SOLEM QUIS DICEILE FALSUbT ALTURA'S'? L 0 ND 0 N, SATURDAY, JULY 19, 1 aQQ. No Messenger has been sent, to France in con, sequence of the late cornnninicatioz brought by Mr. I.Nszi.tco,, nor.do we think that an answer is likely to be dispatched so soon as the Public might exped. We shall leave others to arise the VgbAic, with reports and conjedures on thesubjea of Peace, as we have little doubt that thelc,ine4 Speech on the Prorogation of Parliament will allude to the pending Negotiation, and cot mlnicate such information upon this important subjqa as 4 in , the present state ofthe business,, it m.ar be deem, ed expedient to make 'known, have been confirmed in our opinions re ... specte ing Expedition, by information tie- rived from a quarter in which we place- yet./ great Congdenee :---The check :he has met with is by xiciTheans. of so important a kind as the . Anlerica.r4 Papers would lead' us: to helieve. We have reasala to think that he has renewed his attempt 7ith a much better prospea,. and that we shall hear of itq complete success at no distant period, THE general Attention, that has been excited by A mysterious transadion, to. which we have often baci occasion to advert, has, it is said, produced a deter, minatkan that the matter shall at length be snbrnit ted to the public.; and though it may appear some, What strange, we are confidently assured tlpt the medium, of promulgation will be the 4.ondor; Gcs, zette. If we are tightly informed, the cornmunica, tion is to be limited to a simple statement that an Inquiry has taken place, and to the result of tAi;t In, quiry. Mr. Fo; has in some degree retarded his recovery by his, solicitude to take part in such measures as. his Colleagues wished to submit to his judgment . But we that the account of his having had at% interview with the Chairman of the East India corn pony, and drupping asleep, is not authentic. His Physicians have, it seems, interdided all intercourse that is not absolutely newspry on account of essen tial business. A Russian Courier embarked yesterday at noon for Boulogne, with . Dispatches from the,. Russian Am bassador here to M. D'OtnsaiL. 3ron Jacom has at length received orders to leave this Country. His furniture, &c. is now ship pincr, and he is expe&ed to take his departure about the latter end of next week. • The utmost dispatch is using to send off the Bi peditions immediately. While two companies of 'Artillery, the Staff Corps, the Foot Guards, 52d, tied, and 88th Regiments, are embarking at Deal and Ramsgate, the'4sth, 87th, and 95th Rgiments embark at Portsmouth. The whole to rendezious at Portsmouth or Plymouth. His Royal Highness the DUKE 'of YORK, after the Review of the Guards yesterday at Chatham, dined with the whole of his Otffcers, and, with his Aids-de-Camp, returned at a late hour last night to his house in Portinan-square. A Gentleman, who came passenger in the Packet arrived a few days since from the Leeward Islands, states,. that he saw a letter from JEROME BONA.. r,OtTE, direded to Miss PATERSON, at Baltimore, brought to Barbadoes by an Amerian Vessel, which fell in with the French Squadron off St. Helena on the 3oth April, which is three d tys later than the last accounts. The Gentleman is u ell known at , LLOYD'S.• Miss PATERSON is the fair AMer:CAI whom JEROME 'married in • Philadelphia, but f whom he has been separated •by the furcit auti in;i.u.- enceof his brother NAroLtoN.