The Sun. — London, England, 1847-04-20 00:00:00

~laiitte e and Council named some one , to ahom tin Ar chbishop had no obj ec ti on . Such was tae state of the o iCeicel when the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the mber for Tamworth) came into power, and no change te a s made by hi m w i t h respect to t h e a pp o i n t me nt of the loMtaittee of Council Those who had been Ministers ` the Crown immediately ceased to be Members of the Council• The Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Robert e."), Lord Stanley, Sir James Grahtni, became Mom ust o f the College, and Lerd Wharneliffe being Presi h aid of the Council, became head of the Committee. l ucre than one conversation with the late Lord Wharneliffe on the subject, as I was connectee end ever have been with the British and to nen School S oc i e ty. A n d he consulted me from tine( dine as to what should be the relations between tine i s = and the board. Ho proposed that a sum 01 wi ere should b e grante d —th e proposition emanated : 4 former Government—for the purpose of a normal ° °i• I advised them to accept that grant of the inresittee, At a subsequent period Lord Whareclitte k e rt ned the secretary of that society that he should s e t the same rule with regard to it as had been % ,,,"1 1 :ed to the national schools, but that he should not t i fNunt the inspector without their concurrence. The soy did - not, according to their orders, male .1" examination as to religious instruction. Sir, the 1 74 1 4 t continued to be made in this form, and various ere! were granted which from time to time were in ,-;:seed, until it reached the sum of 100,0001., and that ni was granted, without any discussion of importance e tat i e l Place. When, however we come to consider the tors , If education, it appeared to us, as a very great 1 4°6l ' of schools had been built, that there was no b ° , 4 l,er such a demand for money for the purpose or I ,, ta ' e a,ing schools. The system of monitors has been ti ` ni siled by Lancaster and Bell, but it did not answer olos,factorily on account of the early age at which the . o euren left school, so that a boy who had only a years' ite eeation hi mse lf was a very un fit p erson to teach well, ,j e u give th e proper compre h ens i on o f the subject of e e eation t o a sc h oo l. I t was t h ere fore proposed that p t e u e ertain sum should be allowed in each school for the s t ill :K/3 e of inducing a boy to remain some years in t ,„_ °ol , till he thereby became an efficient teacher. It s et' proposed, likeeise, that when the masters gave Leen. time to training of the pupil teachers, and render oeg there efficient in their duties, that there should be a to t s t e aill sum of money as an allowance made e C e ,n l - It was proposed with regard to some other outs i n • te te which there were not monitors and pupil ners, that there should at once be established monitors,do, who likewise received a sum of money to in di them to remain at school. These became stipen trY Monitors, an d th ere s hould be an allowance made o 4 o Master s t ra i n i ng an d teaching/ these stipendiary mtutors. It w as p ro p ose d lik ew i se w ith a view to the provement o f t h e norma l sc h oo l s, an d for the better _ l astentation of tho se resort i ng to t h ose sc h o ols, that a rin of money should be granted for the purpose of pay ing thos e pupils who should be most promising, and who should be recommended by the inspectors of te school, se. of ft sethe r w i t h those who were at school, for t h e purp o being trained in normal schools, and that there should DO an augmentation of the salaries of the masters of schools wh o h a d b een trained, and who s h ou ld o btain a cer tificate of profi c i ency. Th ere s hould be a certain s ti t of money likewise for the encouragement of proper rwho and w or k s h o p s , w hich has to those persons, ti have taken an interest in education, been at various ,Pes a ve r y d es i ra bl e object. It has been always my ;Lie* that the only way efficiently to raise the educatioa t his countrywill be to raise the condition and pros pects of the scho o lma s ters. It has been my view, often and oft often expressed in this House, whether in or out of o r ir ec, that the drudgery of schoolmasters was not suffi to:llY rewarded, and leading to no prospect of advan e,:rei it WILS such that men of talent and abilities who De ! trained to that purpose, cannot but leave it in a Profitable t number of instances for other and more Wh• 'able occupations. Such has been the view Le h g have not only taken myself but which It itul confirmed by that of others.—(Ffear, hear.) 11/ °f immense importance that these s chools should e d sups efficient t eac h ers , an d that there should be some toruniment or reward given ; the latter more commen surate with th e great d ut i es w hich they had to perform. There is another proposition which I shall have to make, i t net th at any grant will be wanted for it this year, but f or be required, in all probability, next year—it is kfti the that been Purpose of pensioning off those schoolmasters who worn out in the service. No one can deny ele,eesel,_t is highly important for us to do all in our p ower to the character and position of the schoolmasters. ee e ll e itt e ,enly surprised that so far from the country see - le a sing itself alarmed at the minute of Counci l, i t well have exclaimed—" What, is this all ? it is "phi e se far, but it is not equal to meet the evil e" is compl a i ne d o f. I t oug ht to be a larger and a lFearer Plan." Sir, I have said before, that I have not e reeled anything but what has been settled on for etly ye Ztieft, k n ow,d repeatedly referred to. It has been that this is an unconstitutional body e_en.makes the grant; but to that I will answer, that rte r not think any course can be more constitutional out.snyor Ministers to come forward with an explanation p o ,That they intend to do, and to depend on a vote of si4lrnsent for the grant. The question now is the n ot a ss in 1839, w h en fi rs t b roug ht f o rward. I did sDanticipate such objections, least of all from those who e e rought forward this opposition, viz., the various the sting ministers of London, and the various bodies tta tOeout set country, who applauded the Government ch eem e ‘ ouhey adopted in the year 1839.—(Loud of c o '„ I trust, therefore, that the Committee " n eil will not be considered as so formidable au evil as it was once supposed to be. that l ar ' hear.) I am not, Sir, going to discuss to • arge question at the present moment. I wish Point the attention of the House to how far these ar gutoents are endeavoured to be applied. Sir, it is im- PoSsible not to see the drift of those arguments. Sir, it is again said that there is sufficient already done for edu elttion, that there is no need of any further assistance; that the people of England are as educated, or if not so completely educated at present, they are in the way to be so completely educated, that it would he superfluous for the legislature to interfere. I wish that I could cen uur in that representation of the case. I wish I could say that the voluntary efforts had done so much, .and that the education of the people was so complete, that we need not trouble ourselves here with the matter, Which I confess is one of great difficulty, and one which cannot be touched without exciting the feelings of Many opposing persuasions. The case is, however, far otherwise. I will not, Sir, attempt to go into minute statistics as to what has already been done upon this .übjsct, but I feel that Hon. Members of this House who have paid any attention to the subject, or who have read the ▪ Pamphlet upon this subject, or who hav attended to Zile education in their own neighbourhood — e (Cheers)— 014 must see that the education of the people of this country is lamentably deficient. Upon this subject I Will take the statements of one of the opponents of this measure. I regret deeply that he should be one of its ° PPouents, because his learning, his zest for the p ublic D . ( 1 , and his piety, render him deserving of the respect of every person—l mean Dr. Vaughan. That gentle -• 4e , , in an article published in the British Quarterly s e :ev ieie, and which has since been Fable lied with his an d Wales, that of the whole population of England ,*„ 11 Wales, between the ages of five and fifteen, found - 0 ," day Schools, the proportion would be somewhat less ; is " one-third, about an cqual number in the Sunday „ see — " °°l s, and the remaining third not found in any schools h esY, evening, or Sunday. Statements of a similar nature e a le been made by Dr. Houk, and other persons who have devoted considerable time and attention to the cau,e of education, and all concur in agreeing, in opposition e t° the statements of Mr. Baines, that the education of , 'le country is extremely defective.—(Hear, hear.) This statement does not, however, rest upon statements of this sort. It will be found, by a reference to the mar riage_ registers, that there are forty out of every 100 married who cannot write their names—thirty in every 100 who cannot read.—(Hear, hear.) This, we must own, is an immense proportion, when we consider th a t the schools of Bell and Lancaster have been established now for upwards of forty years, and that voluntary education has been ever since that time doing its utmost to overtake and subdue this amount or ignorance. In a report furnished by some inspectors who were sent down to inspect and report upon the state of education in schools belonging to the voluntary esta blishment, it is stated that there are great numbers of Persons who are not in the habit of attending any place of public worship, and to whom the name of God and Christ was utterly unknown. Not many years since I referred to the statement of a chaplain of one of the county gaols, I have lately consulted again the report of that gentleman ; he is a person who has taken the greatest pains to inform himself of the condition of the persons brought into that place, and in that report he states that during his three years' stay at that place the performance of his duties has brought him into contact with 1,733 men and boys, and 387 women and girls; and of these the majority could neither read or write, and were also ignorant of the name of God and of Christ, and of such things as virtue or vice, holiness or heaven. There was a case, Sir, in which some of the boys be longing to a school were desired to read that chapter of St. Matthew's Gospel containing an account of " the Marriage in Cana in Gallilee," who were utterly unac quainted with the meaning of the word marriage. With respect to the secular education of a number of prisoners in one of the gaols, it was reported by the inspectors that there were 90 persons unable to name the months of the year, 104 unable to tell the name of the reigning Sovereign, 108 who could rot define the meaning of the terms virtue or vice, and a number of persons who were unable to count as high as 100. Sir, I confess it ap- Pears to me a very shocking thing that education is not, given to these persons until they are sent to the gaol.— (Hear, hear.) There are many occasions in which pri soners had been induced to bless the day in which they h e ad been sent to prisons, because they have after their eischarge conducted themselves in a respectable manner sad earned as honest livelihood. But, Sir , is it not nesirable that before the people reached that place th ey should, while young, while impressions can be. easily made upon them , b e instructed in their knowledge, and in their duties. One of the !blest opponents of this proposition was recently speak ant against it at a public meeting in this metropolis, and 0 n that occasion some one in the body of the meeting put Z o iti h n i g s :_ ha2d the following question, which he g ave in Is it not better to put a sign post at the be aislining of a man's life than a gibbet at the end of i t?" — Wear, hear, and loud cheers.) I will not, however, omit the remark made on that occasion by the speaker, the Rev. Mr. Burnet, who asked with a readiness which he so well can command," What if the sign-post led to -* the gibbet?"—(Hear, and a laugh.) I admit that it was a Clever answer, and one well calcalated to catch the meeting, but I must remark that there is nothing in the ten which I propose, and which shall be laid before the fa to o t e h T la in yi f n u g ll—a plan calling upon the House to agree out of money for the purpose of aiding the - "heels of the Established Church, of the schools of the P„ g congregations, of the British and Foreign es ,e'iss and of the Wesl e y ans ..which could justify • 14 ' au is min t tin Elastic AM is t 0 There will be the same number of officers ; and, instead of these appointments being given to those who say " they are quite sure that the gentleman they recommend is a staunch political adherent "—(Roars of laughter)—that he, besides that, " reads and writes very well, and keeps accounts very well," and that he is in all respects well qualified to fill the office which they seek to obtain for him—(Continued laughter.) Now they will merely say " that he reads and writes very well, that he keeps accounts well, and that he has been religiously brought up," omitting alto gether the political part of the subject—(Cheers and laughter)—so that the assertion that this is a great scheme to increase Government patronage is a most idle apprehension.—(Cheers.) Sir, with regard to one point, which is indeed touched upon in this resolution, and which I am aware, entails very great hardships on those who attend many of the Church schools of this country, as there is a refusal to parents to allow their children to come to these schools unless they will learn the cate chism, and attend the school and the church on Sundays. —(Hear, bear) —with regard to that rule, we neither promote nor encourage it. If we had made it a condi , don on any of those grounds, that any of those funda mental rules on which the schools are conducted, should be departed from before they should receive aid from the State, we should lose the advantage of having such schools well instructed and conducted as they are at present. But for my part, I cannot but think that die Church itself will gain a great advantage by allowing parents to send their children to these schools without insisting upon the children learning either the catechism or being required to attend Church on Sundays. —(Hear, hear.) I believe that the rule of the Wesleyan body is this :—that it allows the parents to educate their children according to their own religious convictions ; and that I think is the best and at the same time the most charitable rule, as it tends materially to diminish that ill-feeling which might otherwise be en gendered. I shall receive with pleasure any improve ment upon the rules to be adopted in the schools with respect to these things. Ido not think that this grant of 100,0001., of which a part will go to the dissenting bodies, would entitle the Crown to exercise an undue influence over voluntary societies. I say again, I should like to see a change with respect to the rule adopted in the schools in connexion with the Church ; and I say further, that if any body of Dissenters are willing to send their children to the Church schools, but which t hey are prevented from doing, by the existence of this rule, I think that would be an additional reason for granting aid to that place, in order that a school might be opened where all the children of the town or village might attend.—(liear, hear.) But, Sir, the question is the scheme, being—as I will admit it is—very imperfect in many respects. The question is whether you will not, in any way, try to combat the evil which Dr. Vaughan describes in terms which I will now read.— (The Noble Lord then read an extract from a letter by aided and encouraged by the proposal is such as could lead to the e,ibbet. (Hear, hear, hear, and cheers.) Another course has la en taken in oppo sition to this measure, by a gentleman whom I regret to see opposed to the plan before the House. The amount of that gentleman's argument is this—that there is a certain class of people in this country which is found in con nexion with vice and crime, with ignorance arid brutal sensuality; and in that corelition the people must be left. For them no means of education are to be provided Ininrisenment, transportation, and the gallows are for them, but none of the milder means of religion or know ledge. Sir, I never can consent to such a proposition as this. lam not disposed to entertain extravagant opi nions upon the subject, nor do I suppose that vice will ee effectually overcome, but still I trust that the number 'nay be diminished, and that not only the path of duty, but the path of worldly advantage, point to education ; And I hope that by this means many may be rescued from the hands of crime and misery, and we should then have the happiness of saying that we had performed the duty incumbent upon ui, and we can with better conscience and mere satisfaction to ourselves, say to the criminal that the punishment which the laws inflicted upon him we had endeavoured to avert is far as in us lay, and that we would have led you to the paths . of virtue, and it is not by our law that you have come to this disgrace and punishment.— (Cheers.) With ro-pect to some objections urged against the particular plan before the House, I cannot help saying, that I think there is considerable force in them; but still, although the m easure is not 'exactly what we might wish, still it must be borne in mind that we had to deal with a great number of existing schools, which already occ upied the ground ; a nd which, according to their own system, ought to impart educa tion in the way that seemed to them the most likely to produce the desired result. I must confess that I think the measure would have been better had it pro meted a more general system of education, and one in which both the children of the members of the Church and those of Dissenters might have joined. The first of these in point of numbers and amount is the ' National Society, in connexion with the Church of Eng land. There are more than 900.000 day scholars in their schools, and the amount of their funds is very large. The rule in all these schools is, that the liturgy and the catechism shall be taught, and there is likewise a neces sity that all th- children shall go to the Established Church on Sunday. They have now relaxed with re gard to the rule, and leave it to the managers of the schools. But we had to consider, in 1839, whether we ought to have attempted to spread over the country one general system of education, and one that did not agree with the British and Foreign School Society and the Dissenters. It would have been very unwise to have made such an attempt in 1839 as now, and Idu not think that the prejudice which existed against it would act otherwise than to create division, and eventually failure. We said that in 1839, with regard to the Church schools, they were warn according to their own vie Ns, and that we would not interfere with religious instruction in any other way than that the Church inspecters appointed by the Privy Council should visit the schools and report as to the kind and degree of education given. With respect to the other schools, we stated that we would not inter fere with respect to the religious instruction given in them, but with regard to the secular part of the instruc tion—that the inspectors should report upon it and upon the state of the schools and their etli.:ieney. Now, Sir, the rule adopted in 1839 with respect to the building of schools, and adopted now with respect to the educa tion of the pupil teachers and stipendiary monitors in Church schools, is, that there shall be an exami nation of the pupils in the Church catechism and the liturgy, but in schools not connected with the church of England no examination of that kind is t,) take place except as to the secular branches of learning. We con fine our examination to the secular branches of learn ing. It seems to me exceedingly strange that there are many persons who agree with me that education ought to receive some assistance from the State by a grant of public money—agreeing with me that it is not sufficient that voluntary efforts should be made —agreeing with me that the state of crime calls for some effort on the part of the Government—and yet say that these rules con tain such a violation of the liberty of conscience, that they cannot assist or even partake of any grant pro ceeding from such a source. Yet these are the same parties who in 1839 consented that schools should be built from public money in the proportion of 18s. 6d. to the pound, and that in the schools the liturgy and catechism of the Church of England should be used I own that I cannot under stand the nice distinction which these persons make on this occasion; for be it observed it is not a a question in which the Church of England arrogates to itself the power of superintending the instruction of the people. All that the Church of England asks is this, that in her schools—schools raised by the Church of England, and built by members of her communion, that her liturgy and catechism should be taught. It seems to me to be a scheme not of a compulsory nature, but one in perfect accordance with religious liberty, and with which Dissenters ought to be satisfied. If, indeed, the Church subscribed a much larger amount than the Dissenters, then of course they would be entitled to a larger share of public grant. But that was not a differ • ence in principle, but one which arose from its prac tical operation. Ido not, therefore, see why the Dis senters should refuse to acquiesce in this grant in con sequence of part of the money going to the schools of the Church of England. This is not the whole of State education. It is only in aid of voluntary effort.—(Hear, hear.) We take the schools exactly where they are situated. We find the schools existing in the respective localities. We impose upon them no terms which are not in accordance with the rules which are established for their manage ment. To say, then, that the State should not under take the education of the whole people might be an owas proposed, ob ro s poseined. o,even but e i n t if was a s applicable nch a thingtthe present large amount of public money was to be devoted to it. (Hear, hear.) Sir, it is said that some other better scheme of education might be proposed which would ' be more to the purpose—that it would be better to confine ourselves to secular education—and, with regard to reli gious education, not to interfere, but to leave ie to the ministers and religious instructors of the various de nominations. As far as I understand Dr. Vaughan, he had no objection to assist the Church of England schools or those of the voluntary societies ; but he would have the inspecters of the State take no notice of the religious instruction of toe pupils. Now, that is nearly the same thing as we are proposing to do, and 1 think that this is rather a distinction without a difference. But there are others who speak of a secular education, and who mean very differently—a school was to be e , tablished by the State, and he sch )01-- master a State officer, and to have nothing to do with the communication of religious instruction, which was to be left to the respective ministers of the parents of the chil Iren. This view was brought for ward by the Hon. Nlenaher tor Bath some years age. but to suen a scheme I have the most decided objection. T. omit altogether the inculcation of religious duties, to omit the srecept of th love of God and the love of their neighbour, would be in my mind a great, a se rious, and an irreparable loss. I think no advantage of uniting the yarn:us religious sects, would compen sate for this apparent declaration on the part of the State, that secular education alone would absorb its attention to the exclusion of religious instruc tion. Ido not think that this would be found to operate well, and I likewise do not believe that from the manner in which the time of the children of the labouring poor is occupied, you could impart to them in this way a sufficient amount of religious instruction. In addition to this, I think it is a scheme which would not be accept. able to the people themselves,—(Hear, hear)—and I am of opinion they would be likely to confound such a scheme with irreligion.—(Hear, hear.) They would be wrong, I,admit, in that interpretation of it; but still, no explanation or evidence which might be given them to the contrary would be so strong as to overpower and put an end to that feeling. The question, therefore, I have to ask the House is whether, considering the various difficulties with which this question is surrounded, it is prepared to go with us in giving a grant of money to be disposed of according to the Minutes of the Privy Council, or whether it will go with the Honourable Gentleman the Member for Finsbury and propose against us a vote of censure.—(Hear, hear.) But, Sir, before I sit down I wish to direct the attention of the House to one or two other points, which I think deserve some notice ; and, in the first place, with re gard to the claims of the Roman Catholics. Now, Sir, with respect to that subject I have to say that, in the minutes of August and December, 1846, it never arose. There were certain rules laid down in conformity with the original intentions of the Privy Council, and to these only was their attention directed. By these minutes it was settled that no school should receive a grant for education unless the Scriptures were lead daily in it. If, however, the Catholics had a desire to establish schools, and, for my own part, I should be glad of such an intention, I think the greatest caution is requisite in drawing up minutes by which grants to such schools should be authorised. I do not think it would do to have monastic schools, or schools where Protestant children would not have an opportunity of reading the Bible. That schools should not be established open to this objection, I am not prepared to say, but I see no reason why that difficulty should be raised now. Although ball a million of money has been expended in education under the superintendence of the Privy Coun cil, not a shilling bad gone to a Roman Catholic school. I therefore see no reason why such an objection should be raised now, unless for the purpose of throwing a stumbling-block in our way.—(hear, hear.) Such being the character of our proposal, and the diffi culties being so great with regard to any other plan, I ask the House if there is any reason for instituting an inquiry as to " whether the regulations attached thereto do not unduly increase the influence of the Crown, in vade the constbutii teal functions of Parliament, and interfere with the religious convictions and the civil rights of her Majesty's subjects." I have already, I think, sufficiently touched on the constitutional points of the subject, and shown that this plan will not in terfere with the constitutional rights or religious feel. ings of her 'Majesty's subjects ; and as regards the influence of the Crown, I thought that this influence was rather diminished than increased by the plan pro posed. As regards the stipendiary monitors and masters of schools, the grants will be made on the reports of in spectors appointed by different administrations, and no schoolmaster, after seven or eight years, when he has attained his majority, will feel himself bound to give his vote in favour of the views of any minister because he had previously received portions of the grant at the re commendation of the inspectors. With regard to the other marks of esteem to the monitors who may not be appointed schoolmasters, such as employing them in dif ferent branches of the p u bli c service, cis a suggestion which was made in this Ho use , I bell this eve by the present Secretary of State for the Colonies, when the Right Honourable Baronet opposite wa s in office, and when Lord Grey was i n opposition, so that it was sot brought forward with an intention ' • of " in alioing the iiiihnue. Crnillerateraq the Rev. Gentleman, stating that the children of the poor were growing up in ignorance and poverty ; and that unless thee evils were obviated that they would become a source of clang, rto the State.—(Hear, hear.) I own, Sir, I cannot but consider after reading that passage and feeling impressed with its truth, that any one should be an opponent to this system of education.—(dear, hear.) On my own part, seeing the evil is great, I am not dis posed to wait till I can get a more perfect scheme. I am disposed rather to feel my way—to proceed as well as we can—until at length we may find that there is seine scheme which possesses a higher claim to be con sidered, as one which will promote, in a greater degree, the intelligence of the people of this country, and on which those of diff rent persuasions will unite and emu late each other in rendering them most conducive to the cultivation of the people—then I shall be happy to en courage a scheme of educati , in which will meet with the concurrence or those different denominations. In the meantime, all I ask you fur are these means—inade quate as they are—with the view, in some degree, to dispel that ignorance—in some degree to promote religion and virtue among a great mass of the people. When I ask you to do so, I am well aware of the opposition which this scheme has met with—well aware that it would have been easier to have shrunk from the task, and not have asked this House to grant anything more than the millions upon millions which already have been granted to the military forceseaf this country; it would been easier to have said, " Let us have the usual millions which you have voted from time to time for the army, and navy, and for the ordnance ; but we will not ask for a single farthing for the purposes of education." But, Sir, that would not hare been consistent with the duty which we feel pressing upon us—to improve as far as in us lies, the school teaching in this country—to'assist, as far as in us lies, in giving a knowledge of the ways of virtue and knowledge—of the truths of religion to many of the uninstructed masses of this country ; and be the opposition what it may—however formidable it may be at this moment—however formidable it may be—and I lament to say, that such is the case,. and that the proposition has withdrawn from us the aid and support of many who " through good and evil report" have supported our political mea sures—be these evils what they may, it will be a consolation to me to know that I have made an attempt to diminish the empire of ignorance, and to raise the people of this conntry in the scale of virtue and religion, so that they may take a high and enviable position amongst the people of all the nations of the world. —(The Noble Lord resumed his seat amidst loud cheers.) Mr. T. DUNCOMBE then rose, but owing to the noise which prevailed occasioned by many Members leaving the House, the commencement of his observa tions were not very distinctly heard. He said, no one could be so unreasonable as to blame the Noble Lord for the course he had adopted on the present occasion, because he believed he was conscientiously discharging his duty ; but, during the twenty-oi,e years he had the honour to have had a seat in that House,-he did not re colleet a Prime Minister of the country ever paying so great a compliment as to notice an individual Member of that House, particularly so humble a Member as him self, and to condescend, and if possible, prejuiico the minds the ~:rride,m; : o n if b ioi )tct lo ai l lald us p e his l placed against uew opt the . otniie them motion ait)tae w he prear.n h , ih , c rridtre anp ( po ikr. rb l eieL. heilsion." country t r) participated men. The i N n Ilia consol o a bb t y i was that these apprehensions Noble Lord r.j ord thousands, might by call millionsres resolution l u t i h o i n s ~ a vote of censure on the G overnmen t, an d a w ant of con fidence in her Maj sty's Privy Council. If he chose to adopt it as a vote of censure, he must do so; but if he asked him if he had any confidence in the Council— or rather in the Committee of the Privy Council, that self-elected tribunal who were to be intrusted with the carrying out of that scheme—in that tribunal he had no confidence whatever. However the great question involved in the motion miebt suffer in his hands. yet he did feel confident that if the motion failed it would not fail because there was anything in the re quest he was about to make that was unconstitutional, or at variance with Parliamentary usage, or the practise of that House; but if the motion failed, he felt that it would tail in consequence of the inability which any individual—an independent Member of that House— must have in coping with that Ministerial influence which he knew had been and was to be brought to bear against his motion; and one of the difliaulties with which he should have to contend arose out of the agree ment and understanding. if not absolute compact, which they had entered into with ttie members of the Church of Engiand and certain members of the Dissenting community—compacts and understandings which he would say were most disgraceful to those who had made them calling themselves " her Ma jesty's Liberal Ministry"—in the face of their former opinions and their avowed principles. His consolation, at all events, would be, if be should tail that he believed that he had the support and good wishes on this occasion of a great portion of his country men. If they asked him what made him think so, he should reply that shoe he gave notice of his motion the other day, he had received communications from all parts of the country asking him to persevere in his motion, and saying that the House would neglect its duty and betray its trust if it did not grant a Committee of inquiry ; or give, at all events, some information beyond that which the Noble Lord had given before it voted away any portion of the public money. Many of them were connected as well with the church as with the dissenters, and they stated further, that if he had placed his motion earlier on the paper, they would have been better enabled to have supported him by meetings and petitions ; but if he bad done so there would have been but one discussion, whereas now the whole question would be fully debated. Notwithstand ing the views of the Noble Lord, he was still of opinion that the scheme would prove dangerous both to civil and religious liberty ; that it was a scheme to increase the power of the Church ; that it exceeded the functions of Parliament ; and that it would prove an injustice to that portion of the community who would be compelled to contribute to its maintenance, but who would derive no benefit whatever from its establishment ; and besides, it would not attain the object it sought to accomplish, as it would carry jealousy Red dissension into every locality in this country if it should be carried. The Noble Lord had talked about intimidation having been used to prevent the Members of that House from doing their duty ; but he should like to k now what means had been adopted on the other side to get up demonstrations in favour of the Government measure ? In 1839 the Government postponed a national scheme of ' 1 education because they found they could not reconcile the differences which prevailed on the subject; but after the petitions which had been presented that night against the present scheme, he asked whether there was any thing like concurrence or approbation in favour of it ? The Noble L rd might feel himself very strong in having bought off the Wesleyans, and obtained the sup• port of the Church of England. Ho denied, however, that the whole body of the Church of England intended to support the Government, as a petition which he had presented from the diocese of York stated that the peti tioners were but beginning to understand the plan, and saying that they were at a loss to know what portion of the clergy were in favour of it, as they were entirely at a loss to know. These were not idle apprehensions, as the Noble Lord had called them, but the apprehen sions of members of the Established Church. He agreed entirely in the prayer of that petition. The Rouse had witnessed what had been presented—that an immense majority were against it, and that but a small number were in favour of it, and that they were pre sented by the Noble Lord ; and it was right that the House should know how they were obtained. They proceeded principally from Members of the Established Church, and when it suited the Noble Lord he could gi tup demonstrations in favour of this measure. There were 12,000 parishes in this country, yet after all the endeavours of Lord Ashley, making arrangements first with the Wesleyans, and next with the Church of Eng land, he had not been able to accomplish much in favour of the Government plan. He held a prospectus in his•hand of a society established to advocate the Government plan, the Chairman of which was Lord Ashley ; and then he had a copy of a circular which had been sent round to all likely to lend themselves to getting up demonstra tions in favour of it. It was dated April 6, 1847, and i t* *wiping ihorezeo wit 94 tP state Oat a s it had been already asserted, that there should be an ex pression of opinion on the part of those favourable to the measure, the signer of the circular wished the parson to whom it was address. d to get signatures without delay to a petition in favour of the scheme ; so that every parson in a village was to become a petition agent for the Government—it went on, " to a petition, one which is sent"—sent all cut and dried from the Privy Council no doubt—(Laughter)—"the petition must be written on parchment, and one or more names must be written on the body of it."—(Continued laughter.) If this was not done, no doubt his Honourable Friend who was on the printing Committee, would not allow it to be printed. It went on, " As they must be sent in before the 17th, no time is to be lost ; and they may be either sent to me pre-paid — (Laughter)—(that was a most materiel point in the mat ter, they were all pre-paid at the parcel office), or to the Right Hon. Lord J. Russell, M.P.—(Roars of laughter) —l3, Chesham-place, who has kindly promised to take charge of them.—(Continued laughter.) (Signed) H Hughes, Gordon-square, Incumbent of All Saints." lie (Mr. Duncombe) imagined that he would not be long allowed to remain an incumbent, and that he would be promoted to a bishopric.—(Hear, hear.) Then came the postscript, which, as in all letters, was the most important part of the document. " I have authority to state, that the authorised Scriptures must be read daily in all the schools receiving aid from the State."—(Hear.) the Noble Lord had told them of the destitute condi- Adam Smith, and he took Adam Smith's authority the more readily because it was well known that he was no advocate for increasing the power of Governments. Now, Adam Smith said there was a difference, and particularly in highly civilised commer cial countries between the education of the higher and the poorer classes of society. The education of the poor, Adam Smith pronounced to be a matter in which Governments were most deeply concerned ; and he compared the ignorance which prevailed amongst the lower classes of society to a leprosy, or some other dreadful disease, which it was the duty of the Govern ment to check. If he searched all history he could - not select a stronger proof of this than what occurred in this country in 1780. There they witnessed the effect of ignorance upon the population. One hundred thou sand people, at the rumours of a mad man, rose to overturn the empire, and to make the predecessors of the Speaker tremble in his chair—to pull the House of Lords off their cushions, and make Bishops fly over the tiles.—(Hear and laughter.) That was a state of things, however laughable it might seem, e hich it would not be satisfactory to witness again. At the time to which he alluded, six and thirty fires were blazing in different parts of the metropolis, the house of the Chief Justice was destroye3, and the Prime Minister's children were carried from the nursery and laid on the tables in the Horse Guards. Nothing could have been more dreadful than these acts, resulting from the ignorance of the population. To the same cause they must attribute the riot: of Bristol, the disturbances of Nottingham, and all the ruthlessness of Capt. Goring, and the horrors of the incendiary fires of the agricul tural districts,- and all these dreadful and degrading acts which mt4re than anything else tended to reduce man to the level of the animal. Could it be possible that such things as these could have taken place in a community where the labourer had had his mind improved by edu cation—had been taught to find pleasure in the exercise of his intellect—had been taught to reverence his maker to regard the value of life, or to respect the constituted and lawful authorities of the country. This appeared to him to afford an irresistable argument upon the subject. It was clearly the duty of Government to protect the lives and property of the community, and as ignorance tended the render both of life and property unsafe, he was at a loss to conceive how it could be denied that education belonged to the pro vince of Government.—(Hear, hear.) It was admitted that Government by some means ought to protect the lives and property of the community. Now, if they took away education what means were there left. Abso lutely none which could be resorted to except in cases of extreme necessity. Take away education, and all that was left to them was military force, gaols, penal settle ments, gibbets, and tortures. Now if the protection of life and property were the end to which Government was bound to look, the only wise and effectual means to attain it was, to elevate the moral and intellectual character of the people. If Government had the power of inflicting punishment on the poor, who could doubt that it was the duty of Government to provide educa tion for them ? It seemed to him that no proposition could be more plain. The truth was manifest when they reflected that had it been acted upoe. probably more than one-half of the population who had been executed for crime might still have been alive—more than one half of the inmates of the gaols might have been at liberty, and more than one half of the inhabitants of the penal settlements might have been honourably em ployed on their native soil.—(Cheer4.) Looking at the first report presented to the Committee of Education, just after a period of insurrection, it appeared that in the district where the insurrection lead taken place there were about 11,000 children of the age at which children were generally educated, but of these about 8,000 were attending no school at all, while the other 3,000 attended schools; these were defective in their system of educa tion—filthy to the last degree, and conducted by masters who stood in the position of ruined tradesmen. In such districts as these where the population were suffered to grow up in this state readily listened to the advice of bad men, who were anxious to excite them to rise against the constituted authorities. Here was the manner in which various insurrections were brought about, and what were the means resorted to to put it down. Having neglected to attend to one means they had only one other to adopt, and that was resorting to military force. Had the people been educated they never would have listened to the advice of designing men, and there would have been no necessity for the shedding of blood. He said, therefore, that educa tion was not only part of the functions of Government, but it was the best end to which Government ought to aim for the protection of the lives and property of the community. When he saw the efforts that were being made in the country against this scheme, and remem bered that all the great Legislators and moral philoso phers of all ages, and the eminent men who were generally disposed to restrict the functions of Govern ment, were in favour of such a plan—when he remem bered that the opinion of all the greatest champions of civil and religious liberty, and of none more so than of those whose memory were held in the greatest reverence by the Non-conformists of England, was in favour of Government education—he really was surprised to see the movement that was now going on throughout the country. Ile was the more surprised when he remem bered Government education was supported by those staunch non-conformists who, in time of Bishop Laud, for the sake of religious principle, left their native country for the new world of Massa chusetts, and when they established that State took the charge of education. In 1642 they passed their first Act upon that subject, and the preamble recited that it was a matter of the deepest interest to the State that the poorer class of the community should be educated under the direction of the State: He had peculiar pleasure in referring to such an authority a: this, be cause those who followed their religious principles in the present day were the advocates of the voluntary system, and, in support of that system, they invariably pointed to America, saying, see what the voluntary system has done there ! Why the practice of America in this subject was just the reverse. A national system of education was the last legacy that Washington left to the republic of the United States, while Jefferson was ever an advocate of a system of education conducted by the State. He quoted the authority of Jefferson with peculiar pleasure, because of all the eminent public men hat had ever existed in the world he was one of the could be raised for the education of children, so that in many of the rural districts there would be no benefit given, and the district would be compelled to pay its share of the maintenance of other schools. The proposal with regard to the industrial schools must necessarily be an injury to the honest artisan. The produce of these schools must be sold in the same market as the produce of the skilled artisan, and at a lower price, as coming from an establishment of which the Government bore the expense, so that the trades, already down to the level of merely a subsistence, would be still more seriously injured. How was a mau having to pay rent and taxes, and find his own tools, to compete with those who were supported by the Government? Besides, it was known to be impossible to teach any of these trades thoroughly without a regular apprenticeship far different from that which these per sons would receive in the Government establishments. The working classes had already seen the mischievous effects of the measure; they had rejected all the attempts of the Government to cajole or bribe them by specious promises of provision for their children. At a meeting at Birmingham, lately, it was rejected by a majority of 152, showing the determination of the working classes to permit the interference of the Privy Council. But they never would submit that they should not combine for the purse cf protecting themselves. The working men were not so ignorant as they had been represented, and knowing from experience how their funds had hitherto been exhausted in strikes and contests, they had resolved to act in a different manner in future. They had now a national combination of trades, and instead of expending their funds in a foolish and useless manner, they now expended them in furnishing the raw material of their respective trades, and in reproductive labour, in order to elevate the condition of their order. This was a new principle of action and highly creditable to the working classes. It was only last week that at Notting ham where the frame-workers who were Members of the national union, had succeded in preventing 80 abate ments in the prices paid, on account of their belonging to the association. The working classes of that town were now getting their own frames and carrying on work on their own account. Referring to theleamphlet of Dr. Shuttleworth ; he could not see why the Government should have sanctioned the gross libel which be found contained in page 20 of the " Minutes of Education." He stated there that the object of the Dissenters in their opposition was to advance the interests of particular sects. Now, what he (Mr. Duncombe) wanted to know was, what objections could there be to the motion of which he had given notice ? It had been said by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, that it was a vote of censure, though he (Mr. Duncombe) did not consider it as such ; but if the Noble Lord would have it so, let it be taken as such, as it involved a principle which he considered a just one. He for one could not consent to the patronage which was to be conferred on a self-elected body ; and the increased power which it gave to the Crown. Already the patronage of the Government had been too much increased. Let them look to the in creased patipnage given them by the railway board. The local Small Debt Courts had also increased their patronage very much. The judges which were created, and were to be created, under that Act, would cause a vast accession to their patronage. It was thus increased to an enormous extent. The new Board of Health proposed under the Bill just introduced would give the Ministry more patronage ; and there were also to be four new Bishops. without seats, ap pointed. These Bishops were to he without seats, but they were to occupy the vacancies as they occurred. In addition to this, there was now proposed these pensions to schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, which would greatly add to the power of the Government. The pa tronage thus given them would be enormous. It was too great a power to give to any Government, as they could not tell within half a million of money what the extent of this grant would be, within the next twenty years. The Noble Lord had said a great deal about the unreasonableness of the opposition but if ho thought so why not refer the whole subject to a Select Committee? Why not refer it for investiga tion to a fair, and enlightened, and impartial Committee? If the Government would not consent to this, it was a proof that there was something in the scheme which would not bear the light of day, and that the real ob ject was to increase the power and influence of the Crown. The result of this scheme, in his opinion, would be, that instead of a free and an enlightened people they would have an enslaved and corrupted na tion.—(Hear, hear.) He would now conclude by mov ing the amendment of which he had given notice. Lord DUNCAN seconded the motion. He had listened with great attention to the speech of the First Minister of the Crown, and he confessed he had been much disap pointed with the speech. He had expected that the Noble Lord would have made some explanation of the ne cessity which there existed of keeping up the Council of education which had caused such heart-burnirgs in the country. He had expected also that the Noble Lord would have seen the necessity of including the Catholics as well as the Protestants in the grant; but he had been disappointed. The Noble Lord had made great reference to what had been done since 1839; whereas, in his (Lord Duncan's) opinion, that from 1834 to 1839, education had been in a more flourishing condition than it had been in any former period. He wished to call attention to the constitution of the Committee of 1839, because he found that the name of the then Master of the Mint (Mr. Labouchere) was now awanting, and further he saw that, whereas the commission of that year consisted of thirty-nine persons, the commission of this year con sisted only of six persons, and these were all Members of the Government. He found that in the year 1841, Lord Monteagle, who had no connexion with the Government, but was only a Privy Councillor—he found him sitting on the commission of 1841. Now, if Lord Monteagle, being unconnected with the Government, and hut a Privy Councillor—if he found Lord Monteagle a Mem ber of that Committee, he should like to know whether any reason existed why the Archbishop of Canterbury, or the Duke of Norfolk, or Mr. Fox Matile, or such sort of persons—(Cheers, ironical cheers, laughter, and the most absolute abandon for a few seconds) —he only meant to say, that all, or any individuals night be introduced under thie principle, on this Committee. — (Continued laughter.) Let the House look at the in spectors made by this Bill. They had 16 inspectors, wh raid 13,60 a/. being_ thirteen and a-half tion of the different classes of the community as far as regarded edueatiou. Why then had he not taken any notice of the Roman Catholic whom he was about to exclude. He held in his hand a statement taken from the " Catholic Directory of 1846," where it was stated, that there were in the different districts of London, 65,307 Roman Catholics, poor persons requiring gratui tous education ; and that out of these there are only 30,207 who receive it. He should like to know why these other 30,207 unfortunates had not attracted the Noble Lord's attention; but was this the only exclusion? was this the only compro m i se w hi c h h a d taken place? What did the House think o f t h e W es l e y a n compromise, also made at the expense of th e R oma n Catholics? He would read an accurate st a t emen t o f w h a t had occurred —stated in a letter to him from a private gen tl e man, " I need hardly say, although a Protestant, that I feel the conduct of the Government towards the Roman Catholics to be peculiarly base.—(Hear.) The dissenters, as well as churchmen, owe you a debt of gratitude for the notice which you have given them." Th e f o llo w ing was a history of the Wesleyan compromise : —About a fortnight since, the Secretary of the Wesleyan Society called a meeting for the purpose of forming certain resolutions, which had been agreed upon at a previous meeting. Before they entered upon business, they were informed that Lord Ashley was in waiting—ho was admitted, and stated himself to be commissioned by the Government to negotiate with them, in order to buy off their oppo sition to the Government plan.—(Hear. hear.) Lord Ashley stated that the Roman Catholic Schools would be excepted from the benefits to be conferred by this Bill ; an object which would be very grateful to the Wesleyans. The meeting came to no conclusion, and it was adjourned to Manchester, to take the. opinion of some of its members engaged in the manufacturing districts. The Wesleyans met on the 9th of April, and again on the 14th instant. The state ment that the Bill had for its express purposes the ex clusion of the Roman Catholics had its desired object. Tho claims of the Catholics were to be consi dered in another minute, and the Wesleyans were not to be prejudiced from offering it any opposition they might think fit. It was also agreed that no person in holy orders should be admitted a master of a school, a provision made for the express purpose of defeating a proposition of the Bishop of Exeter.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. MACAULAY.—This is all a romance. Mr. DUNCOMBE.—WiII the Right Hon. Gentleman say that Catholics are not to be excluded? If he does, I will admit the romance. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded : He had received a letter from Leeds con taining the resolutions which had been adopted at a meeting there of the Roman Catholics. Those resolu tions he trusted would find an echo in the breast of every member in that House. " The Committee has read with astonishment the reply of Lord John Russell re specting the additional grant for the purposes of education." " The Government, in order to ap pease sectarian intolerance and clamour, were pre pared to deprive them of the united benefit of a fund to which they equally contributed." And that they could not but look with contempt and resent ment upon a Ministry who were about to create a new Bill of disabilities on their Roman Catholic subjects. Now there was no romance in all this, it was unfortu nately a reality.—(Hear, hear.) But he would as k the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, who said that this was a romance, when he was opposing Lord Stanley's motion for the revocation of these minutes, whether be understood that they were exclu sive to Roman Catholics? He would ask the same ques tion of his Noble Friend the Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire? If he did, his speech was most belied, and most misreported. Lord Stanley stated that the Scriptures were to be read daily as a part of the national system. He said that it had been objected to:the former scheme that it was impracticable to unite so many different per sons of different religious opinions. Lord Morpeth asked, was it right or proper to exclude their dissenting brethren ? " He had no high opinion of many Roman Catholic doctrines—of the Unitarians he had his own opinions—but as long as they employed Roman Catholics, and as long as they fingered Unitarian gold, they could not refuse to share their privileges, or exclude them from benefits to which they equally contributed. Now he (Mr. Duncombe) could not conceive that there could be anything so clear as what were the intentions of her Majesty's Ministers, and he could not help thiliking that this Has base trickery to buy off the opposition of some to this new measure. These sentiments of the Noble Lord were applauded by Lard John Russell, Mr. O'Connell, Mr. Ha xes, and others.—(Bear, hear.) He hoped and trusted that th e r e would be found a sufficient spirit in that House no t t o vote awa y any of the public money unless the public were equally benefited.---(Hear.) Lord Morpeth in a subsequent speech said that " he would be ashamed if he did not think that every man in the country—be he Churchman or Dissenter —was equally entitled to th e support o f t h e G o vernment. He found the Church reekin the first great claim upon the prop erty of the country; but t he Church itself oug h t to be great ly obliged to Dissenters, for th e example which they h a d set her.— (Cheers.) That was the Noble Lord ' s op i n ion in 1842.n0w, would they h a ve lie should like to know, at t e mpted this exclusivisin had Mr. O'Connell been in that House ? He believed nut. He would nu , believe that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for'Dung arvon would go Out on the same lobby w i t h the Noble Lord, he would not be lieve that he would be a party to create a new Bill of pains and disabilities, and throw a stigma On his religion. The Noble Lord had said nothing' about the probable cost of the scheme. He would ask any man—any gentleman in that house if he could say within half a million of money what would be the cost of this scheme ten years hence. Mr. MACAULAY.—One penny per head. Mr. DUNCOMI3E.—Th e y - only ca lled for 100,000/. this year, but th ey were laying the foundation of a scheme which according to the calculations which others had made, and which they had not proved to be wrong, would cost in two years hence nearly two millions. How was that money to be got to support the expenses of the alterations which were to made under these minutes which had been laid on the table of both Houses of Parliament. lie objected to the unconstitu tional character of this Committee of the Privy Council, and he did not think that there was anything in the manner in which th ese m i nutes h a d been laid on the table to entitle the C omm i ttee o f P r i v y Council to the confidence of the count ry .—(H ear , hear.)—When the m inutes were laid u p on the ta bl e o f the House by Lord Lansdowne, nothing was s aid as to their nature and character. It was argued in the Privy Council, and then laid on the table of both Houses without any prefatory remarks, for they did not appear likely to lead to any confusion to require the sanction of the House of Lords. It did not require that in order to give effect to any Bill that the consent of the House of Commons should be given. In the view of the Privy Council, the President of the Privy Council had only to take the minutes to the Lords and Commons, and there let them digest them if they could. It was a great condescension on the part of the president to say anything at all about them. Let the people pay their money and be grateful. Such was the opinion of this secret tribunal. If they looked at the minutes them selves, they would find that they were objectionable..-not only on the ground of cost, but also as a general scheme. He had said that it Would not accomplish that which it professed to attain. It would create undue influence, increase the power of the Crown, g tv e ere thought of and framed of the Government. It appearsa t n h d a t these minutes a on the 20th of August last, when some general minutes were agreed upon, and the President of the Council re tired for four months until he could prepare a further set of minutes for the regulation of education, pupil teachers, and stipendiary monitors. He must say that, looking at the minutes altogether, independently of their unconsti tutional character —for he thought that never was such a piece of quackery put together as the whole of these minutes. Talk of Professor Ady and Morison's pills, give him Dr. Kay Sbuttleworth's resolutions. -(Laughter.) This measure was absurd to all practical working men, and more particularly in that portion which referred to the workshops and industrial schools—it was the laughing stock of the country. There were pupil teachers, ap prenticed pupil teachers, who had a five year' s appren tic,.ship to undergo. The Privy Council oug h t certainly to be called inquisitors in this in stance, for the education .of dthe children would be assigned oynte b to inspectors app _ y the Privy Coun cil.hdifference ' There was not muc lti the course of examination between the boys and girls, except the girls only being required to be versed . in the geography of • e The girls were the British Eflopir . not required to proceed beyond " Compound Proportion " lii figures. Now such a thing isaS really preposterous—those who were to be their future kitchen-maids 'and house-maids, are to be crammed by the compound proportion of the parochial clergyman —(Hear, hear, and laughter.) In the third year the examination differed but little from that of the first ; and, in the fouth year, they required a knowledge of vocal music and drawing, espec i a ll y from models. This was not absolutely required, because the means of teac hin g it might not exist in every school. The Right lion. Gentleman would say that it was easy to have models for every school, according to the pre sent " Poses Plaitiques.” -- (Laughter.) The work ing men had a strong sense of the i n jury whic h they would infli ct upon themselves by supporting this measure. — (Hear, hear.) I t would have the effect of excluding the rural districts entirely from the benefits of the scheme, for they required, before a grant of any sum was made, that twice the sum should be raised by co ntributions, so that for 11 grant o f 201., 40/. would be thus rai sed, boucles a house rent free, W4iel; wQI44 wau 4 Eir Plwes 10.& 9/ as and he had no doubt that the Hon. Member for Mon trose would ' perfectly coincide in the opinion he was about to quote. Atter laying down in the strongest manner the general principles of interfence on the part of the Government, Mr. Hume went on to say that, " as there are certain callings highly useful and net to the state, but yet which do not give chat degree of ad vantage to any individual adequate as remuneration for his services, the State must, by means of bribes, by means of distinctions, or by money secure him." If th ere was a calling in the wide world to which this description ap plied that calling was that of the schoolmaster, whose business was to teach the poor. This calling w,as useful. That his calling was necessary for the people me person could dispute ; as little could it be, that he cant tot and does not obtain adequate remuneration without .the in terference of the Government. Here, then, was an ob• vious reasonable rule laid down by Mr. flume, and this was a case in which the Government was clearly called upon to interfere. There was no reason, el priori, to prove that the application of the pri nc i p l es o f non-in terference could not supply the people with a good prin ciple of popular education. But l et t h e House look at the facts. Wllat was the system which had existed ire England from time immemorial ? It had always been a system of non-interference for the purpose of provid ing education for the poor. If, then, that principle or free competition really were the principle's upon which the education ofithe people might successfully be conducted; if the principle would be to education what it was to system of trade, they would have sees the result of that principle as they had seen it developed in consequence of the rea.oval of the restrictions os trade.—(Hear, hear.) The principle of competition iu matters of education collet not, however, have been the one adopted to the end, viz., general education among the people. It was a principle which had been tried with perfect liberty in the richest country under heaven, and in a country the people of which are considered as intelligent persons. and cannot be fairly accused of being illiberal. If, then there ever was a country in which the principle of non interference could have worked with effect, and shown its power, it would have been in this country. The state of things would have been this—the schools of the country would have been models, perfect institutions, to be found in every part of the country ; every school would have been an example, it would have contained an excellent little library and mechanical apparatus, the very fact of such a thing as grown-up persons, who were unable to read or to write their name, would have been unheard of'. And with respect to the schoolmasters, they would have been men as expert in the business of imparting knowledge, and in the management of the minds of young people, as their cutlers were in making knives, ' and as their engineers were in repairing machinery ; they would have been amply remunerated and their lot in life would have been respectable, and they would have been treated with all that respect which the instructors of the morals and intelligence of the people should Lal ways receive. Did they show that they possessed any of those things at the precent time ? Look at all those authoritative sources of information, the charges of judges, the resolutions of grand juries, and the reports of public departments which have anything to de with ascertaining the state of educetion among the people. Their effect is the s .m 3 as those fects already stated by my Noble Friend. Take the report of the register of the prisons. In Hertford Gaol and Herne of Correction there were 700 prisoners, one half of those were unable to read or to write. In Maidstone gaol there were 3,000 prisoners. 1,300 of whom were unable to read or to write, and nOt more than 50 able to read or to write well. In Cold bath-fields there were 8,000 prisoners, but only seven who could read or write well. Look again at the register of marriages, of 130,000 couples married in the year 1844, more than 40,000 bridegrooms and 60,000 brides could not sign their names, but put their marks to the register.—(Laughter.) Even the education. that was received in some of the schools was of a most inferior description. Many of the schools are mere dens—a heap of fuel on one side, half a testament, a dog's-eared spelling-book, a broken slate, and a pen. And then the master—(Laughter)—and then the master —where was the high principle, the high spirited, the heroic devotedness on his part to the improvement of the pupils committed to his care, many of the men were merely discarded serving men, ruined tradesmen, many , of them who could not work a rule of three sum, who did not know whether the earth were a cube or a sphere, whether Jesusalem was in Asia or America. Those were the men who could do nothing else, that were ap pointed to train the hearts of the rising generation — (Hear, hear)—and upon whom the whole virtue, pros perity, and freedom of the country depended.—(Cheers.) If the House thought ho was taking too harsh a view of the present state of education he would appeal to an authority which he thought no person could deny—he would refer to the report of the congregational union representing the non-conformists of England. Last year, not quite a year ago, upon the 16th of May, 1846, the report of the committee of the congregational union for general education was presented to the union. It was moved " that the report now read be adopted, and printed and circulated under the direction of the. board." That motion was made by Edward Baines, jun., of Leeds. What he would now read would he thought be considered as an opinion not to be disputed. "If it were necessary to expose facts to such an assembly as this, with respect to the interest of so large a portion of the population of our towns and rural districts, we could refer them to the exhibitions in the various localities by the published documents of the Registrar-General's reports. Those reports would furnish us with enough to make us modest in speaking of what has been done for the humbler classes, and make us ashamed of England, that the sons of the soil of England should have been so leog neglecte 1, and should present to enlightened fo: eigners tra‘ cling from other shores such a sad spec tacle of neglected tnentel degradation." He. like Mr. Baines, most cordial!) , adopted that report. It was in perfect agreement with all the information he had been able to obtain upon the subject. He believed that the stAe of educe:don among the common people of this country a ought to melee us ashamed at the sad spectacle presented to the enlightened foreigners who visited our shores."—(Hear, hear, and cheer=.) And now, under what seat. m had this ctate things come to pass ? Und, r a a stern of non-interference--of free competition—.a system which they were told was, just as powerful a stimulus iii education as in mat ters of trade or commerce. How long had it been in to were p. ... a es .. „ A the whole outlay.—(Hear.) Now, he thought that greatest who had ever resisted any increase in the this state? This morning he received a paper said to where this enormous expense was incurred in a mea- functions of Government. Against these authorities only contain " reasons for opposing the educational plan," sure for the benefit of one section of a class, thtit the one eminentleatee:cuuld be placed, and the clamour of 1846 an d one of the reasons was if you wait with patience, House ought to look with. jealousy at the whole Bill. against a Gsvernment s y stem o f e d uca ti on w as raise d private enterprise will do it all. They had been waiting Looking at the principle involved in the measure, he by those who opposed the wisdom of their former selves. with patience ever sinzito u, the t , i , tri i, e ? -ofT 'fill i h t e he ll ; e p a t r ar 2 e B h 4 y 7 . thought that it was opposed in almos t e ve r y p articular It seemed to be the opinion of them who raised the How long were they still to the rule which had guided Government in 1 8 34 . But clamour that the proper functions of Government was or 3847? Was there ever an experiment tried during who was the originator of this measure a Let them not always to wait till necessity called for the exercise of such a length of time with so little ef . et, and yet these be told at one time that it was the Prime Minister, and military force, and they had nothing to do with resorting men called upon them to go on waiting still longer. at another time that it was the President of the Cituncil. to means for improving the intellectual and moral chit- The experiment had been tried under the most favour- He trusted that this subject would be reconsidered. He ratter of the people. The duty of the statesman was able circumstances. They were asked to wait a short did not desire to see himself placed in opposition to the simply to see great towns grow up and provide geols and time, and all would be right. He defied them, however, Government, but he trusted that the number of petitions barracks for the correction of the people instead of to point out a single case in which tree competition had presented would have their eff,ct, and that they would schools f o r im p rovement of their minds, and when been productive of beneficial results. And as the south not be thrown over to the mercies of the Privy Council. moments of danger arrived they will be wanted of Britain formed an argument, so did also the northern Knowing, as he did that the R;ght Hon. Bart., the Mem- to be at liberty to send down soldiers to mow teem down, part form'another. Now here were two nations of the ber for Tamworth, had opposed a grar.t of this kind in but he must on no account attempt to cultivate or teach same origin, of the same blood, speaking, with a slight 1839, on a highly constitutional ground, he should con- the intellect of the people. The same might be said of diversity, the same language, separated, at the same elude by quoting a portion of the speech delivered by the populations of agricultural districts. He me ant the time from the see of Rome in the same generation, and him on that occasion. The Noble Lord pelted a por- incendiary's torch was at work before the statesman by the same great reformatory movement, united under tion of the speech of Sir Robert Peel, in 1839, and sat could interfere, and he must abstain from all attempts to one sovereign, going through the same sources of politi down by seconding the motion. remove the ignorance which might prevail on machinery cal revolutions, united together through a long series of Sir ROBERT INGLIS said that it would be in vain, and subjects of that nature. It was difficult to under- ages, and yet there now existed great differences be at that moment, to try to create a different organization stand in what way men of undoubted ability and of tween them. England had been for many ages one of in the machinery for giving education to the country. excellent intentions should have become attached to so the richest, most prosperous and civilised nations in the He retained this conviction as strongly as ever, that it was strange a theory. The explanation which occurred to world ; in all these matters Scotland had been almost at to tbeebureh of England, and Church alone,that the State him was, that he believed a considerable portior of the bottom of nations calling themselves civilised. They should delegate this duty ; anti however defective he this theory arose from the operation of a law of which (the House) knew that one hundred and fifty or two might think this scheme of the Government he would they might trace the operation in many similar ways, hundred years av,o Scotland and Scotchmen were words receive it thankfully, if he could not receive it cheer viz., the law of reaction. The country was treated with contempt ; they were considered as words fully. It was his own deliberate conviction, that they was just fresh for a great contest with the Government belonging to a people very far beneath other nations in would not have received so good a measure from any upon the subject of interference in matters of trade, civilisation ; and even the greatest of Scottish patriots other section or party in that House.—(" Hear, hear," men's minds were naturally much excited by the pro- seemed all but to despair of ever raising the mental and from Mr. Duncombe.) He (Sir R. H. Inglis) had stated cess. Much was said of the advantages of non-inter- moral condition of the lower classes of that country, deliberately his opinion, without any intention of injuring ferenp i iithe advantages of free competition; and some So general was the feeling that they w e re backward in her Majesty's Government in the eyes of those who had men at ability and excellent intentions seemed in- civilisation, in the 17th century Fletcher, of Saltoun, a given them so general and so ready a support.—(lronical dined, as soon as they had driven the Government from man who fought and suffered for liberty—a brave and cheers.) It was asserted that the education given to the a promise which clearly did not belong to them, to drive able man—ever the friend of his country's independence._ population of this country had been generally furnished them from a promise which appeared to be clearly a was so overwhelmed in contemplating the low state _ of by the Dissenters. He denied this. Until within the part of the legislative domain. When he looked into education, and the prevalence of misery amongst last century, they had no Dissenters at all—(Hear)-- the works which had been wrttten upon the subject, he countrymen, that he proposed the institntieoonraofepa the 1 at least no Dissenters who assumed to themselves the saw the principles of non-interference clearly laid down. slavery in Scotland as the onlyomeiamnsroofvemempt.ffig two constitution of an independent church. An Hon. Gen- People were told to remember the power of the prin- people to submit_ to a t s , y r s h t d e c ta h ti t: at p pamphlet of Fletcher tleman spoke of the Lancastrian system, but the Hon. ciples of fair competition, and this argument seemed to months from the day a Gentleman ought to remember that the Church imme- pervade the whole of their thoughts, and the writers and of Saltoun was published, the Parliament of Scotland diately introduced an equal if not a better syst em, that spea kers seemed to ima g ine that if free competition was passed the great Act of 1696, for the settling of schools. of Dr. Bell, which was universally allowed t o an im- useful is matters of trade and commerce, it could be no See the change that has been effected. In spite of the in proved method of education. The Hon. Member would less excellent when applied to the education of the peo- clemency of the air, or the sterility of its soil, the Scotch find that all the grammar schools in E ng l a nd had been . pie. They seemed to think, that because it was good man has no reason to envy any other part of the world. founded by gentlemen belonging to the Church of Eng- when applied to corn,_ it must be sound also when ap- Wherever he went, and ther e we r e f ew pl aces h e did more made notsueegeossto— was (Lsaaruegtheter)— await th h e im sa . me If undeviatingcareerheenlistedhe soonof land, and only within the last few years was a school plied to the school. No analogy could, however, be founded by Dissenters. Still he could not but think, that false. Consider for a m omen t w h a t it was w hi c h the framers of this measure would find themselves advan- the principle of freedom of trade so excellent. In trade became a non-commissioned officer, and no matter what taged by going to a constitutional school—(Laughter)-- there could be no doubt but that the producer or dis- pursuit he applied himself to, the result was successful. He deeply regretted that he could not give an uncondi- poser of sugar could be able to sell his sugar at a more About one hundred years ago it was customary in Eng tional support to the measures of the Government, but reasonable price than if Government were to turn grocer land to speak of them as it was now of the Esquiteauxe yet while saying this he was bound to o b serve th a t no and open a grocer's shop in every parish throughout the but the language of contempt was at an end, that of new reason had been alleged—no new principle had country.—(bear, hear.) been advanced for the scheme which the Government individual roce hadm Why was it so? Because any esteem took its place. The system of education establshed had proposed. All had been made fair and bright, but public welfare g than any more mterest in adding to the in Scotland was one open to many objections not necessary it was evanescent in its character and quite unjustifiable I f f the h grocer's , prices were above never could have done bad Government thos e e o o n f l d hi p s o n ss e i t b g l h y h h o a u v r e s: nowrose to to p so a o r h tic a u d l aergi rte z e , but t et e i h m e p rfe c t as it was, Scotchmen in its principle. The Government appeared to have iw' was the grocer's sugar was worse no than that of his rivals, he themeducatieoen how ben the e t to free competition. Well, then, let acted on the principle of convenience, and according to cust omers; andargument stood. Let them observe the facts which had transpired there might be a soon appeared in the Gazette, present advantage, they were quite ready to avail them- took refuge in the union workhouse —(Hear,h name ear . children ) competit ionr u e n e der the most selves of it. They a dd uce d th e pr i nc i p l e o ff ere d by the If, however, on the other hand, his supply was good, the lowed to exercise its influenceqe es wer'primed favour national schools, and might attempt . to show how sue- prices were as low as his neighbour's; if he conduc to ahat one--thes dif fe rent r i c r h e e s r u results followedth the two lti f the was al selves able circumstances, atn ional Union in a e re ' rt d e cessful they had been. But they might as well attempt his business properly, and was civil to his customers, the out by the Co g n ignorance rega which existed po escrng to show the principles of the mode of Government with man would grow rich—he looked forward to his chaise the lamentable _ all foreigners who in this country, visited them were respect to the tide-waiters.—(Laughter.) It might be and to his country house; and this was the reason why and of which i h said that with the advance of 100,0001., there was the principle of free competition was beneficial, in the ashamed. nte ether country, which was little fa a sufficient opportunity for ca rrying ou t the whole supply of goods. But there was not the slightest parallel voured by nature—one with a very imperfect state of of the scheme. But he bad serious objections, and the in these cases between the freedom of trade in goods and education.—the.. consequence was such an improvement first of these was to the unscriptural portion of the the education of the people. What class of men could in civilisation, such security of life and property, education plan, and he had serious objections as to how have the same interest, the same strong and pressing in- and such general prosperity, as had been hardly far these plans should be carried out. He had serious terest in supplying the poor with good schools as the ever seen in the world before. Now, if thete results objections to the plan as it now stood. He had serious g rocer had in supplying his customers with good sugar? had happened in any experiment in surgery or che objections to an unsanctified education—to that education There were benevolent persons who contributed some mistry, would it not be conclusive as to the exeellence that the guide post sometiim a led to the gibbet. If they o f t h e ir time in order to give education to the poor, and of the course adopted.—(lleer, hear.) The objections wou ldgive thereturns they wouldshow that education had they might if they p lease sa y that there existed among which had been raised to this were question vanishing rather increasedcrime than led from it. By those returns he suc h persons a kind of benevolence and a competition to on every side. If the Government had nothing to do would show that out of 1,000 convictions, against those who do good, but do not let Hon. Members be imposed upon by with the education ofthe the people, then 11 a grants were shown to possess, at least, some degree of educe- a mere play upon words, or imagine that such a corn- which had been made but of b at be compared with tion; 845 were against persons p ossess i ng e d ucat i on; and petition is at a ll t o . that earnest, if they had, then they should not be prepared to forego • t without education. H© saw, however, in strong, and fierce competition, prompted by the d • the 145 against desire advantages of the system for the sake one hun the reign of her Majesty's Government,d thatthe for a design to waive all minor offences, en with . t e ope other.—(Hoar, hear.) Would it not be strange to an economical view he considered that it had its recom that such would be the case, he would give his cordial say that there was a great deal of b enevo once men ations, for when they took into 1 d • consideration the vote in support of her ttlajesty's Government. evinced in this country towards the poor, and money which would be saved in prisons and punishment Mr. MACAULAY regretted that he felt any neces- upon that ground it would be sity to make an observation . on the plan of the Go- oor's rates, because better to abolish the of crime, and for the purpose of preserving order and the people. vernment for the education of P. the abolition of' such rates would property, he believed its advantages could not fail to be payment of poor's rates from appreciated on this score alone. The money, too, could seemed a strange time to moot the question as voluntary contributions. The to whether the people were to be educated good in the case of education in the school in each locality ;so that the charge of rot or as the case of the of cot, or whether it was the duty of . the Government poor's rates. It must with that education. He might appear on a moment's consideration ruption and political jobbing could not be borne out. to provide themthat ,the task of d 'the l is For, in the first place, Government did not appoint the that cite the penal statutes to showthere was upon every e tenting peop e diemiss ground just such as those with which teachers ; in the second place, they, did not no deficiency on the part of the public or of the the Government should interfere. He did not know them ; in the third place, the managers of the schools state, as was well shown by the existence of the that the duty of Go ve r nmen t interference had been were perfectly independent of the Government ; and. penal statutes . subject he could not quote On that q _ a +,, ° Y drawn with such clearness by by Mr. in the fourth place, the salary to the teacher less UV r tera any person as 411gller "49ritY' " 4513. 6. ilge ° " "" Of ggiarh , smallugter) li •he referred to Mr. David Linen, entirely contingent on the approval of the eteallam • • SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 20, 1847. it • 0