The Sun. — London, England, 1847-05-18 00:00:00

L PA k MENT HOUSE OF LORDS, May 17. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at the usual hour. FACTORIES BILL. The Bishop of LONDON presented several peti tions from various districts in favour of the Factories Bill. ,L O P 4I 'W , II.I.II.NCLIFFE presented a petition from the inhabitants •of Huddersfield with 5,000 signatures ; a similar petition from Blackburn with 4,520 signatures, and a similar petition from Boness, Lancashire. Lord FEVERSIIAM presented a petition from the in habitants of Ashton-under-Lyne, signed by 2,301 persons; also 100 similar petitions from various manufactories i n Ol dham and its neighbourhood; also thirteen petitions from various other places in Lancashire. The Bishop of CHESTER presented similar petitions 9 .011 1 the clergy of Bolton, Rochdale, and Burnley, signed by 60; from the clergy of Manchester, signed by 35 ; another petition from the medical men of Man chester, Bolton, an d R oc hd a l e , signed by 141; a petition fro _ti:l the cl ergy, me di ca l men , manu f actur ers, and in habitants of Londley, in Yorkshire, signed by 760, also for a similar purpose. The Bishop of LONDON presented a petition from the l inh a bi tants of Warrington and other p l aces , s i gn al 1 1 , 3' , 1 ., 688 persons also in favour of the Factories Bill. PREVENTION OF PROSTITUTION AND SE- RUCTION. The Bishop of EXETER presented petitions from the county of Middlesex and the county of Norfolk, Praying their Lordships to adopt measures for the pre ntion of prostitution. BILLS FROM THE COMMONS. M essPhgers brought up Bills from the House of Com mons, FACTORIES BILL. The Earl of St. Germans, Lords Eversham and Wh arncliffe, the Bishop of London, and Earl Grey pre sented p et i t i ons in favour of the Factories Bill. TOWNSHEND PEERAGE BILL. The H ouse then went into Comm i ttee on t hi s Bill. The Bill passed through Committee. PUBLIC GRANARIES. The Earl of WINCHILSEA rose to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, raspecting the ex- Lor of establishing public granari. a. The Noble Lord, who was very imperfectly heard, was under stood to say, that had the Government established * such depots' at the beginning of this scarcity it w ould have' done much' to have prevented the present state of thiiigs. It would have prevented the supplies rui n being h oar d e d i n a f ew hands. He however sug g'sled that for the future the Government should take up the m atter and provide for the accumu l at i on of grata in order to supply the working population at re duced rates. iioEarl GREY" said that the question opened by the of b i, le Earl was of too much importance to be disposed f it - ! ,j u n Y ed atly incidental discussion, and he therefore ab- Z i from commenting upon it, not because he agreed it " hi m in his opinions, but from the deep sense which eentertained of the present state of the country. -The subject then dropped. POOR-LAW n . Earl FITZWILLIAM moved for IRELAND) certai returns con nected with the rateable districts in Ireland. After a few words from Lord ELLENBOROUGH, Bari GREY Ir - sss said that the returns asked for were the a'Y Upon the table in another shape, and to place he would in a new one would require so much trouble that in - "Id desire his Noble Friend to postpone his motion ,e,°as e quence of the present pressure of business. 1 , . I :he E arl of FITZWILLIAM denied that they were ,11 possession of the returns which he asked for. At N."lobsiarae time he would be most willing to oblige his Th Earl of WICKLOW said he would press his mo - Lion e for the returns. After some conversation, The Nonnt EARL postponed his motion till to-morrow. Th e E FACTORIES BILL. z arl a ELLESMERE presented a number of one Lieris in fav our o f the Factories Bill, and then pro ti;Ettged to move the second reding of the Bill. He said little of subject of so great s importanca had been so triad of late befor e th e i r L ordships, that i t m i g ht b e i n • thattle" perhaps with so me apprehension, and the more the second reading wa s not moved by an authority to whom their Lordships were accustomed, but at the request hottaY Most anxious that th e Bill s h ou ld pass i n t o a l aw , trd co nsented to move it before th e i r L or d s hips. i r a Pa s r ,atively novel as the su bj ec t m i g h t b e to t h e i r e xisted p n uis, he w as st ill re li eve d f rom the difficulties that , hi i introducing a n ew p r i nc ipl e t o t h e i r Lord of he The p resent Bill was supported by many classes ▪ y entlu nanity. He admitted th a t the question was vizy different one. still he thought it was the best or ea the Policy to p ursue the one which he now proposed , se cond readin g o f t h e Bill . Th e reasons w h y h e hadbeen . reconciled to th e measure was , t h a t t h e ten -14160e40 at!. the prese n t f actory system was to throw t h e i ng their those who were t h e l east a bl e to b ear i t, mak ss_anractedlifteeire of severe, continued, unmitigated, and ta A system o f l a b our w hi c h no Ch r i s ti an ought to could sanction, an d wh i ch no Christian Legislature m • this sy s o s This Bill proposed to interfere with we re s„,ar ;_ and provide a check for the abuses which Nya.s said known to exist. He was well aware that it beat pillars of this branch of • dusts embraced one of the source s of revenue, Y the evenuc, and was one o . f the . main . portanee • state. He admitted fully its nn the evils ' but it could not be defended that remedied which Were connected with it, should be se ss that ther e s h ou ld b e no rem i ss i on i n the pre os system, especially when the remedy, in his opi n i on , • old not tnater ially interfere with the progress of this g r eat branch of national industry. Considering the effect of this Bill the population of the manufacturing ring district had p e titioned Parliament to ant their oex tent, and they might be considered now at Lord ships' bar, waiting in anxiety for the safety of the Bill in its passage through the House. The only two ob jections that had been urged against the Bill were that it would diminish the wages of the artisan, and defeat the late Act of the Legislature relative tk foreign competition. The Noble Lord ex pressed alititrary opinion, and proceeded in a very low voice to exhibit his reasons for differing from those who urged those objections. It had been objected that the r eduction of the hours of labour would reduce the quan tity of the manufactures and injure the trade of the c ountry, and if the rate of wages as at present given W ere kept up, th e com p et iti on w ith f o r e ign goods could not be kept up. Such an objection could not be main tained, for the principle which they inculcated by pass ing this Act would, in all probability, be followed up by other countries, so that the ratio of supply and wages would remain equal, leaving the competition as it at Present stood. He was aware that in introducing such a measure to their Lordships' House he incurred consi derable risk. T he measure was one w hi c h was likely to lead to much difference of opinion, and many s e°llis ieus betw een opposite i n t eres t s; but still it _ras one which was requ i re d, no t only by the tloerking classes, but even by the manufacturers i n alse ives, as its op era ti on wou ld tend to equalise labour stea d of having, as they then had, the most sudden ens,liranitio from activity to idleness. (The Noble Lord sittrison. I.l e greater part of his observations was nearly audible in the gallery.) m ot . /"EVERSHAM said that in seconding the w i si l l " of his Noble Friend who had just sat down, he ge wishes to make a fcvs observations upon this measure a.:l l e ,L a , ll Y, A considerable body of the industrious and fr _ ril sos desire operatives, men in favour of this measure, a not only to avoid the present severe labour ws • " s 'ts sudd en alterations, but from a conviction th a t it ..7a measure which must eventually result in the ad `nocetnent a s t h e i r interest—by their eqali s ing th e 7 la en unt of lab our to b e di str ib ute d amongst them, and n tio of thei r emp l oyment more constant. T he ques of wages was one w hi c h h a d i n d uce d many to • nd forward in opposition to this measure, who ap -151:07,e,d_ of its regulations as being likely to benefit the waves classes. It was possible that the rate of ' e a might be reduced, but that would be coun teracted This by the greater certainty of employment. Bill had been brought into the other House by a gentleman who was himself deeply interested in the I llab ufactures of the country. Mr. Fielding had spent a ''tig life in the cotton manufacture, and allybenefited the he during the co urse of that life he hadri brought forward this 'ilea. Working classes, andhad sure with a view of adding one more benefit to the many h e had conferred upon the working classes. The opinions of this gentleman were supported by a very large number of those who were also engaged in the various manufactures of the country, and who had equally the welfare of the operatives in view. The Noble Lcrd then proceeded to refer at a considerable length to documentswhich showed that from the year 1819 to the present time the provisions of this Bill had been mat ter of agitation, not only amongst the class whom it more irnmediately affected, but in the Houses of Parliament. and since that time, up to the year 1847, the consumption of cotton had increased nearly at the rate of 400 per cent. In seconding the motion for the second reading of this Bill, he was not aware of what reception he would meet with from the House and from her Majssty's Go vernment, but he hoped that a measure, which was so Perfectly consonant with all recomnised principles of po litical economy, and so well calculated to benefit the working classes, would not be otherwise than favourably eceived. Lord BROUGHAM said he t that was very sorry to at the unanimity of feeling which had appeared u pon this question during the evening, by an expression of dissent_ fr ssents om the measure before them. He was glad l at ti c e so large an attendance of the Right Reverend Pre jate, as this matter was one, in the discussion of which e L nli ght to be more than usually interested ; an listed that he should be enabled to lay before itidca such views of this question as would perhaps ace them to consider it maturely before giving an assent to it. The question was not one which was tn a re lY affecting the interests of the manufacturer—it 'eted the con di t i on o f t h at grea t body of men who als the oured fo? support of these manufactures , and with R hose condition and labour he had. ever since he had h ad the ower of reasoning. maintained that they . had p no right of interference. There were no mysteries of Political economy in science come sod with this ques thm, for if any - man who had funnel: v worked twelve Lours a day were restricted to tan, it was nothing but the effeet of increasing the prise of manufactured com modities. H e cou l d not too highly deprecate th e c onduct of any man who volunteered to meddle with this vast subject, which effected thirty-seven millions bathe tra d e of this country, and assure the world he was so confid en t o f is theory that he had doubts of its future success. There was no question whi chrequired more caution and slowness of action t h an `! ,l -"` It restuired the deepest and acutest circumspec tion to deal - w i t h it ; and for any man to dare to assert t ha t the re could be no soundness of the principles of the In t e asura was re a ll y surprising. At the present moment, l abour —th ey manuf ac t ur i ng districts were overstocked with our—th ey were overwhelmed with an immense body o _b t destitute children—and their Lordships ought, there- TELE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, MAY 18, 1847. chsses, by rAueing their wages, or the property of tine manufacturer. That argument was not borne out by the facts which had already existed ; for the former Factory Bill had produced neither any serious di minution of the produce of woollen goods, or in the wages paid to the operative.—(Bear. hear.) His Noble and Learned Friend had told their Lord ships that the adoption of this Bill would considerably reduce the manufacturing produce 01 the country. Now it was a well known fact that from the best and purest n:otives a large number of mill-ovvi,ers had long ago preserib( d the short hour system its their own esta blishments with the greatest success. Now was that a sufficient answer to the argument of his Noble and Learned Friend. In his own humble judgment it was, for he could not believe that the mill owner to whom he had allud , d could be so blind to their own interests as to continue the system they ha ! commenced if it reduced their trade. Now, the truth was, it had produced no such effect. It had improved the condition of their labourers, both in mind and body, and the result had been that the former productions of their mills had not been reduced by the disinterested step they had taken. There could be no doubt that, a t th e p resent mo ment, the manufacturing interest was suffering from the severest privations, and yet the labourers employed by that interest, were patient and contented under their sufferings, and he was therefore glad, that in suingc thatonp c p l o tuh r se t i 03,n thehhi sympathisedsa d m o nelayswutiroteha, themsu Governmentre tihn etibr n b n e u l i r e i t v r e y d , t a h n i d s m i nl e p a; n u v r e e t w h •o e u a l do sons s d d o f t o t n t i 117 e andinfl uietn wn p e s a that upon thispt o h l n n e that ground he supported it. e ro sufferings.r d had sh i showed s The Duke of RICHMOND would not have risen had it not been for one or two remarks which had fallen from his Noble and Learned Friend who had addressed their Lordships at so much length. His Noble and Learned Friend had told them that the majority of the mill owners were opposed to this Bill. Now that was not the case. The mill•owners were supporters of this Bill, and although he entertained the utmost disrespect for the mill-owners or the Anti-corn-law League's support, he cordially agreed with them in supporting this measure. His Noble and Learned Friend had told them that an agricultural labourer was not so strong as any one of their Lordships who had reached the age of seventy. Now, if his Noble and Learned Friend wished it, he could produce an agricultural labourer from Sussex, of forty-five years of age, who would carry any one of their Lordships upon his back without any diffi culty, and in his opinion few Noble Lords could accom • plish such a feat as that.—(Great laughter.) Lord CLARENDON felt constrained to oppose this measure, because he felt that it would oppress and injure those who were to be benefited by it rather than improve their condition.—(Hear, hear.) But he felt that it would not only be attended with that result, but it would inflict a serious injury upon the trade of the country. Besides, there was no case of cruelty or injustice on the part of the employer made out for this Bill, and considering that at this moment the factory labourer did not on the average work more than eleven hours per day at very easy work, he thought there was no necessity for their Lordships fur ther interfering in the progress of the trade of the country. There could be no doubt that the Bill, if it were passed, would materially reduce the manufac turing productions of the country, and it must, therefore, of necessity, reduce trade, and see ing that, as in former instances, there was no crying evil to be put down by the Bill, he could nat conscientiously give it his support. But be fore their Lordships gave their assent to this Bill, it was their duty to consider what effect it would have upon other branches of trade than manufacturers. In the first place, a reduction of the hours of labour, from twelve to ten hours, would largely reduce the consump tion of coal in this country. It would also reduce the consumption of tallow, wool, ar.d many other similar articles of manufacturing consumption, besides reducing the amount of shipping employed by this country. It was, therefore, almost impossible to calculate the in jury the passing of the Bill would inflict upon this country. This country did not depend upon the greater number of hours which her labcurers worked, in competing with the foreigner, but upon the superiority of her machinery.—(Hear.) Well, then, if the working of that machinery were to be reduced, what a serious effect it would have upon the export trade of the country. He, therefore, imph red their Lordships not to be led away by an impression that in passing this Bill they improved the condition of the labourer, because it was clear, that if it reduced the trade of the country, it must, as a necessary consequence, di minish the wages of the manufacturing labourer. He thought the present time was not favourable for this experiment. He agreed with the Noble and Learned Lord that the operatives were not favourable to the Bill, and that they had never asked for it. There were mills at present working six, eight, and ten hours a day. and among the manufacturing population, this state of things was by no means satisfactory. Let them apply the rule proposed by this Bill to other classes in so ciety as well as manufacturing. Let him ask their Lord ships how they would like an Act of Parliament corn • polling them to dispense with the sixth of the labour of their domestic servants ? What did they think of the Legislature enforcing them, then, to accept the sixth of the labour of their own agricultural labourers ? Let him ask the Noble Duke opposite how he would like such a proposition ? The Duke of RICHMOND could see no reasonable objection to it if the half of the agricultural labourers died from excessive labour—(Hear, hear.) The Earl of CLARENDON said that that was an assumption in which he could not agree with regard to the manufacturing population. He deprecated inter ference with the income of the poor man. By this measure they were interfering with him, and were inflicting the most serious injury to the working classes of this country. For these reasons, therefore, he would record his vote against the measure. The Bishop of OXFORD would state the reasons which induced him to give his vote in favour of this measure before the House. It was contended that the supporters of this Bill were driving the manufacturers of the country abroad, and that they were interfering with the legitimate property of the manufacturers. Now, how did the case stand ? Why, this very class—the manufacturers themselves—had, to the extent of two thirds of their number, petitioned in favour of the measure. He denied that the Bill was an interference with the legitimate profits of business. It was only an interference with unsound and injurious speculation.— (Hear, hear.) It was nothing but an assumption that one-sixth of the income of the working classes would be taken away by the measure. He himself put that proposition to some working mechanics, and was told by them in reply that that was the argument of my Lord Brougham.—(Laughter.) But what was their answer to it. They said that they could not admit its truth, but even if it was so they could not see their children growing up with their bodies wasted and their minds injured even to save that one•sixth of their income. —(Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl told them that they exported thirty-seven millions of goods annually, and that by the present Bill they would be cutting off one-sixth of that amount. He thought that the asser tion of the two last hours of the day's labour being the only profit of the manufacturer was incorrec?, and was based upon too nice a calculation. He believed that these last two hours were not hours of profit, taxing as they did excessively the energies of the poor creatures who were engaged at those factories, and that they were rather a drawback than otherwise on the labour of the rest of the day. Those who knew their own inte rests had taken this view of the matter. The Messrs. Marshall of Leeds, for instance, had cut off one of these hours, and had reduced the time in their factories to eleven hours. In the case of another firm, which had taken an account of the work done for five weeks before a reduction of the hours of labour, and five weeks after wards, it was found that more work had been done dur ing the ten hours than during the twelve.—(llear, hear.) A measure, the very counterpart of this, had been brought forward by the late Sir Robert Peel, in 1815, and from that time to the present it had been agitating the public mind, and frequent attempts had been made to obtain for it the sanction of the Legislature. They had already made several preliminary steps which might serve to give them some oxperience of the opera tion of the Bill. They hail passed a Bill against women working in mines. That was against touch opposition; but the result had been with increased good effect, both to the women themselves, the subjects of that legislative measure, and to the masters of those mines. They had passed a Bill limiting the time to twelve hours in those very factories, and the result had been so far beneficial. The result must be good. The want of the measure was evinced by dire effects on the physical and moral condition of the labourers.—(hear.) It became then not a question of wealth or loss. Wealth so gained was unlawfully gained, and therefore the Legislature could not sanction it by refusing to interfere. But why were the capitalists able to impose the amount of labour? That was the question of the Noble Earl (Clarendon). He answered, that the alternative offered them was no work at all? Long hours or no work—such was the alternative, the dire alternative, offered to the needy workman, and could their Lordships doubt which he must choose ? How, then, if their Lordships did not interfere, were they to retrieve themselves ?—how, but by com bining against their masters. Were their Lord ships prepared for that result, and the attendant evils? Were they prepared to encounter these, or to drive the stay of the country—the labouring classes—from their shores to a foreign land? On what did their sbipe riority as a manufacturing nation rest ? On these two things—the security in this country of all vested pro • perty ; and, 2d, the physical strength of the people, and their pmience in attending upon machinery. Were they prepared to drive the population to that extremity that the manufacturer should be in dread of seeing his pro perty in flames; or to countenance a system which as certainly reduced their physical strength as it exist&, and thereby to cut off the right hand of their strength and their greatness ? He trusted their Lordships would better consider the results of their decision ere they came to a vote upon the Bill. Lord BROUGHAM explained. Lord W HARNCLIFFE—The question before them now was not a new one. It was important, and it had occupied an important space on the attention of the Legislature ; it had come before them in 1801 ; it had been taken up again in 1815 ; it was again before Par liament in 1831, in 1844, and 1846. During all that time public opinion had grown ; the votes of the other House of Parliament and public sentiment had both progressed, till, when the Bill was before the other House of Parliament, petitions were presented with 178,000 signatures, while only something like 1,000 were sent in against it. The Noble Lord, who spoke throughout in a very low tone of voice, concluded by sating that he would support the Bill. ' The Bishop of ST. DAVIDS regretted to rise at that late hour of the night, or to weaken the effect of the elo quent and tender address of the Right Rev. Prelate who had preceded him. But some things had struck his mind with great power, and he hoped he might be allowed shortly to address their Lordships. He agreed with ;,o Le the - more cautiuus iii the steps they to k I with regard to the intermeddling policy. It must not be supposed that he was the advocate of the mill owner. On the contrary, he was speaking for those whom the millowner employed—namely, the labourers ; and on their behalf, ai,d their behalf alone, be warned their Lordships of the direful consequences that must inevitably follow the adoption of this measure. There was, however, no ground to justify their Lordships adopting it. True, they had in terfered to a moderate extent already, but then that in terference was to get rid of a crying evil. Here, hew ever, there was no such cause to justify the interference. There were no charges of cruelty brought against the millowner—there was no overworking of the labourer. He was satisfied with his present situation, but the pro moters of this Bill knew better than he did himself, and told their Lordships that he was not only overworked but excessively and cruelly overworked. Their former interference was in defence of children to prevent their being unduly employed at night, but the present Bill was not to protect the labourer but to destroy one-sixth part of the total manufactures of the country. That was the real object of the Bill, or at all events it was the direct tendency of the measure, and he put it to their Lordships whether they were prepared to strike such a blow at a branch of the trade of the country, which exported upwards of 70,000,000/. per annum, and employed upwards of a million of people. Surely such a step must considerably reduce the wages of the labourer, and yet it was said that the Bill was for his protection. For his protection, indeed ! Why, be had been told upon the best authority, that if the steam-engine of a mill were stopped for repairs, but fur a few hours, it had a considerable effect upon the wages of the labourer. The labourers in manufactories would feel every reduction that might be made in the hours of labour, and by the present Bill the wages would undergo a very material diminution. More than one-sixth also was taken from the master's profits, and if the profits of the masters went away, the wages of the man must follow. He had no doubt but if this Bill were persisted in they should have ere long to retrace their steps. The argument of his Noble Friend who had just sat down— that manufacturers were at present compelled to work only six, seven, and ten hours per day—was no argue ment at all in favour of the Bill. The present distress in the manufacturing districts was very great, but that surely was no reason why they should endeavour to per petuate it, which would be the effect if the present measure became law. "To belay" things, as the sailor termed it, and make no effort to change them for the better, was not the way to secure the prosperity of the manufacturing interest ; and he apprehended if they placed restriction on the hours of labour they would be only confirming the existence of the present state of things. He would ask their Lordships would the Americans, the Dutch, or the Swedes, follow their example? No, they would not; but the conse quence would be that not only those nations but the French and other continental nations would be stimu lated to increased exertion, and would eventually suc ceed in driving them from their own markets, and anni hilate the manufacturing and commercial superiority of this country.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the moral effect of this measure he would observe that poverty and distress was as fatal to the mental and moral as it was to the physical condition of the people. Now, by taking cff one-sixth part of the profits of the manufacturers, there could be no other result than a dimi nution of the bodily comforts and circumstances of the working classes. (Hear, hear.) The consequence of this would be poverty. And no more effectual means could be desired to secure the moral degradation of the people. He certainly did think there would be much more good sense in an eight hours' Bill, than one for ten hours. The principle was the same, and the probability was greater of effecting the object they had before them. The man who had worked ten hours was so fatigued as to be unable to attend to what was intended to enlighten his mind. —(Hear.) He (Lord Brougham) had had experience of that for twenty-five years, during which he had en deavoured t') educate the labouring classes, and had been successfully defeated by sleep.—(Laughter.) But the most remarkable thing was that all the good was to be obtained at the sacrifice of one-sixth of the working man's week's wages. Mr. Arkwright, a gentleman who possessed four mills in the North Riding of Yorkshire, having heard that his men were agitating short time, made a proposal of short time to his workmen. The first and largest mill decided for the long time ; the second, by a large majority, chose the long time ; and the third and fourth decided for the short time. He put one at least of the mills on short time, according to their own election, but they had not been long under the new arrangement till they discovered that there was a dimi nution of their wages. This was a new fact, and they re-considered their choice. But there was another au thority against this Bill. The House of Commons had sent up the Bill backed by a majority. In theory it was to be reckoned the same House of Commons. Well, in March, 1844, the Twelve Hours Bill was rejected by a majority of three ; shortly after they rejected a Ten Hours' Bill by a majority of 7—not the same ma jority ; and they would neither have the Ten Hours nor the Twelve Hours' Bill, and the Eleven Hours even had not yet been heard of.—(Laughter.) The 3d of May came, and the Ten Hours' Bill was again rejected by a good workable majority of 137. But the year 1846 came, and with a split in the House. The Corn Bill had been passed, and the land-men - and the wool-men were pitted one against another. A measure affecting corn had been carried, and the other party were now determined to turn against the mills. A short period of three years got a majority of 108 for the second reading ; such was the unaccountable change. And was this the time when the House of Commons should come to such a conclu sion ; a time when everything was threatening, and food riots were occurring in the country ? Was this a measure to enforce in the present state of things, when in our country, the other day, sp ecial constables s ei 1 food riots; were sworn in, in consequenceof the and food, when the people were crav i ng f or employment food, was this the tim e , upon speculation, upon shadows, and upon fantasy, to p ass a measure which would curtail the four great and staple manufactures of England? Nothing could injure or curtail manufactures, or in the slightest way injure them, that did not , o f ne cessity injure man. The wool trade was one of the four that was to be struck at by this Bill. 240,000 tons were grown, and they were about to cut off one-sixth part of the labour upon it; and would not that, of necessity, cut down a part of the labour. He had heard the speeches of the Noble mover and seconder of this measure, and they were characterised by an absence of all personal reflection, and therefore his observations did not apply to them, but to less wise men elsewhere. A measure to be worthy of the sanction and adoption of the Legislature, and to be useful must combine beneficence with benevolence. The execution of good was as essential as the will to do it, in order effectually to benefit those for whom it was designed. There were, he admitted, thousands of poor, bard-worked, half-famished men engaged in the manu factories, and they all wished to remedy their sufferings, but their reason should be convinced of the efficacy of the measure they adopted before they passed it. They should nut pass it because their feelings of compassion were roused without seeing clearly that that which was offered to them as a remedy would really have the effect intended. He had himself seen the toils of these unfor tunate men engaged in agriculture. He had seen them returning to their homes worn out by sixteen or seven teen hours of labour, with garments drenched with per spiration. without even the comfort of a change of clothes, or the comfort—to them a luxury—of fuel. He had seen these, and was not the condition of the hardest worked factory labourer to be envied by such men as these ? Their physical existence was affected, and a man employed as a farm labourer was at the age of 45 as infirm as a man of 70 in the upper classes of life; and if they spoke of unhealthy employment, why did they not turn their attention to other occupations far more delete rious and destructive than that of factory labour. There were the workers in steel and brass, who lived in an atmos phere filled with the filings of the metals upon which they worked, and who died at early ages from diseases engendered by it. Why did they not pass such a mea sure with regard to them? Why, it would be to them as it was to the factory labourers, an act of the grossest and most cruel injustice ; and yet the workers in brass, from the time of Tubal Cain downwards, were destroys d by their occupations. It was upon all these grounds, and with many apologies for having so long detained them, that he asked them to refuse their assent to the Bill, and moved that it be read that day six months. The Bishop of LONDON said that he felt that he laboured under a great disadvantage in following the Noble Lord who had just spoken ; but he felt bound to express to their Lordships his entire concurrence in the measure which they had then under discussion, and which had been so ably attacked by the Noble Lord who had just sat down. lie gave his assent to the measure without the smallest feeling of doubt upon his mind that the grounds upon which it was proposed were unsafe or unsound.--(Hear, hear.) He was ready to admit as a general principle, that they should not in terfere with the free competition for labour ; but there were circumstances which might warrant such an inter ference, and render it necessary. He thought that it was the duty of a Government to protect the interests of any large class of the community when it was likely to suffer, and to remove, as far as it could, any evils which pressed upon them unnecessarily. It was with regard to the large body of children employed on fac tory labour, that he thought this measure most parti cularly deserving of their Lordships' attention. The physical condition, and the moral condition of the children were objects to which their attention ought to be directed in whatever oecupatical they were engaged. The Noble Lord had painted to them in glowing colours the miseries suffered by the agricultural labourer, but he (the Bishop of London) thought that the picture Has overdrawn. The agricultural labourer could breathe the pure air, and see the clear light of Heaven, and he could ut any time suspend his toil—even though it were only for a few minutes—so as to prevent that exhaustion of strength and spirits which continuous labour would necessarily entail. The factory labourer, on the contrary, was shut up in a close factory, and could not rest fur a moment. The ma chinery was kept continuously in motion, for a given number of hours, and a given amount of work was to be done. This had its natural effect upon the labourer ; and was marked by the exhausted spirit, the debilitated frame, and the early death. It was a fact, notorious to all in the manufacturing districts, the labour caused a fearfully increased number of deaths. The average du ration of human life, in the manufacturing districts, was one-half shorter among the factory labourers than amongst the other operative classes. This was not the only evil which arose; for, with the children employed, not only physical weakness, but a want of mental cul tivation was the consequence. Before they reached the age of thirteen, they might, perhaps, b e sen t t o an evening school ; but after thirteen a double amount of labour was thrown upon them, and their physical powers being too much exhausted during the day, to admit of their attending an evening school, they lust all that they had learned. It might be argued that this in terference would—pro Canto—injure either the working many thins which had fallen from the Noble and Learned Lord, and yet he felt compelled to give his vote in support of the motion by the Noble Earl (El lesmere). There was one thing which fell from the Noble and Learned Lord which seemed to him to have no foundation whereon to rest. He said that this was a subject on which legislation could not interfere. Why ? Oa what did he rest the assertion ? Was the Legislature a body less free from sinister motives,or more likely to be moved by a bias ? Did the Noble and arned Lord say so on the authority of what he con ceived to be the principles of Political Economy ? What was the principle of Political Economy ? Why, that the Legislature should not in terfere with free industry. But here lay the fallacy. It was assumed that industry was free. In going back into the history of the factory system, they could not deny but that great abuses had existed, and that many of the manufacturers had not done that towards th• working population which was desirable on their part to do. No doubt circumstances had done much to cause them to pursue the course which they had done ; bat on that very account he thought that in terference was required, in order to put an end to the evils and abuses which existed in the system. In the course of the present debate, the Noble and Learned Lord opposite (Lord Brougham) had endeavoured to alarm them with a fearful picture of what was to follow if the measure passed—that wages would be reduced, profits would fall, and general distress overtake the ma nufacturing districts. Now to that he (the Bishop of St. David's) would answer, that those who had fully con sidered the question, and who well knew the nature of this branch of industry, declared that this was a a gross exaggeration, and that the estimate of the evils apprehended bad no foundation whatever in fact. Not only the most intelligent of the working population, but naany of the greatest manufacturers of the country had met these objections, and shown that they were falla• cious and unsound. Though it had been said that this would be a perilous experiment, he contended that the peril was all on the side of the system the Bill sought to amend, and he therefore called on their Lordships to act on the humane peinciple of the greatest happiness to the greatest number, and support the second reading of the Bill.—(Cheers.) Lord ASHBURTON called on their Lordships to beware lest by injudicious interference they took away the bread of a great body of the working population engaged in factory labour. his objection to the present measure was, that they were proceeding with most im perfect knowledge of its probable operation. He did not consider the working population referred to by the Right Reverend Prelate proper authorities to decide the question, and he, for one, would have been glad if steps tied been taken to inquire more fully into the feelings and sentiments of the master manufacturers. At the present time the manufacturing producer of this country had to submit to the keenest competition in all the markets of the world, and they ought therefore to pause ere they aggravated that state of things. Had the Bill contained a clause for eleven hours, he would have sup ported it, but as it did not contain such a clause, he must vote for the amendment of the Noble and Learned Lord. The gallery was then cleared for a division, when 'ere appeared— For the second reading of the Bill, Contents . — 53 Against the Bill _ _ . _ Majority for the second reading... —42 Their Lordships then adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, flay 17. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock. REPORTS. The reports on the following Bills were brought up: — Bridge House Estates Debt. Commercial Gas-light and Coke Company. Dublin and Belfast Junction and Navan Branch Railway. Dublin and Drogheda Railway (Purchase of Navan Branch, &c.) - Dundalk and Enniskillen Railway. Dunfermline Waterworks. Eastern Counties Railway (Maldon, Witham, and Braintree Railway Purchase). Eastern Counties Railway Extension (Cambridge to Bedford, &c.) East Lincolnshire Railway (Deviation at Boston, and Branch to Great Grimsby and Sheffield Junction Rail way at Grimsby). Edinburgh and Glasgow, Monkland and Kirkintilloch, Ballochney and Slamannan Railways Amalgamation, Sale or Lease. Enfield or Edmonton Railway Extension. Falmouth Waterworks. Glasgow, Barrhead, and Neilston Direct Railway. Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle Railway, and Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway (No. 1). Glasgow, Kilmarnock, and Ardrossan Railway (Amend went, Deviations, and Branches) Glasgow, Paisley, and Greenock Railway (Branches at Port Glasgow). Glasgow, Paisley, and Greenock Railway (Amendment and Branches to the Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr, the Glasgow, Barrhead, and Neilston, and the Glasgow, Strathaven, and Lesmahagow Railways, and to Haugh Pits). Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway (No 2). Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway, and Ayrshire and Bridge of Weir Railway (No. 3). Great Indian Peninsula Railway. Great Southern ai:d Western Railway Extension (Port. arlingron to Tullamore). Lowestoft Railway and Harbour (Alteration near Reed ham). Manchester and Birmingham and North Staffordshire Junction Railway, Norfolk Railway (Yarmouth Extension). Norfolk Railway (Branch from Wymondham to the Norwich Extension of the Ipswich and Bury St. Ed mund'sßailway,Reedham Railw a y near Diss.) Paisley and Renfr ew R a i lway (Sale an d I mprove ment). and the proposed Thetford and Paisley, Barrhead, and Hurlet Railway. Payne's Patents Assignment. Plymouth and Tavistock Road (No. 2). Ross, Cromarty, and Part of Nairn District Roads. Runcorn Gas. Saffron Walden Rates. Swansea and Amman Junction Railway. Wakefield Market. Warrington Gas. Waterford and Limerick Railway. Waterford Road. York Improvement, Lend a l Bridge Wexford Free Brid ge . The Reports on the foll ow i ng Bills were f ur ther con sidered and agreed to:—. Belfast Port and Harbour. Dublin Consumers Gas. and Approaches. Duffryn Llynyi and Porth Cawl and Lynvi Valley aiDsleuyw,iKrieilsm' and Carli s l e R a il wa y, and Gim Kilmarnock, and A yr R a ilway Railways Amalgamation. p. (No. 4). Glasgow, g o w, London Sewage Chemical Dianure 11PLeod's (Dalkeith Glebe) Estate. Hyde Improvement. Sheffield Markets (Amendments to be proposed). THIRD READINGS. The following Bills were read a third time and passed : Birkenhead Dock Company and Herculaneum Dock Company Amalgamation. British Commercial Insurance Company (No. 2). Caledonian Railway (Glasgow, Garnkirk, and Coat bridge Railway, Branch to Glasgow Station). Cork and Bandon Railway. Cork, Blackrock, and Passage Railway. Dunfermline and Cupar Court Houses. Eastern Union and Ipswich and Bury St. Edmund's Railways Amalgamation. Southampton and Dorchester Railway (Weymouth Branch). REPORTS OF RAILWAY COMMITTEES. Mr. FITZROY moved that it is expedient to suspend for the remainder of this session the standing order which precludes Committees on Railway Groups from malting their reports to the House until the reports on the several lines comprised in the Group have been laid before them by the Railway Commissioners. Mr. STRU4T said that it was not possible that the reports of the Railway Commissioners could be more ably 'macte'ont s a• eapenae nor trouble WU spared, and their authority was very great, and he therefore could , not think that they were valueless. They had prevented a great many evils from occurring, and, especially, they had prevented railway companies from increasing their capital to an unlimited amount. Mr. SHAW said that he was not about to deny that these reports were valuable ; it was to the working of the system that he objected. The Committee were obliged to hear everything, and then read the Commis sioners' report, for which they were often obli ge d t o wait for a long time, and thus occ asion an enormous expense to the parties. After a few words from Mr. CRIPPS, which did not reach the gallery, Sir E. ELLICE said that no person l amented more than he did the difficulty which had been experienced in carrying out the resolutions which he had vent ure d to propose, and he must again say,in his own d e f ence, that this matter of difficulty should not have been , but there were prepared during allowed to remain in the hands of an . individual Member of that House. What had . fallen from his Right Hon. Friend the Chief Commissioner of . the Railway Board fully bore out his statement,. which ho recommended t h e Rouse to come to this decision. He would not repeat of ß t i be ght B l .i i l o is n. v‘ F ,h r ic ie h nd ha n d ad be s e tt;cl the present session so many . .conflicting propositions with respect to the powers for raising capital and for raising loans, and for amalgamating and uniting compa nit i—many of which had been preposterous—that f A t ' i h m at ao h y is upon the first attempt at examination before the Board, the parties themselves had been asha me d of their own ' propositions, and had withdrawi? them. Many of them had, quite contrary to all principle, an d i n defiance of the h s t a nding orders of the ouse, gone before different Committees of the house to ask for powers which they knew could not be granted. He c er t a i n l y thought this was not a fit st a te of things to continue, and s omething, iu his opinion, ought to be done to effect an amendment. Th 3 whole question of railways was one which Parliament ought to take up, in order to provide a remedy for the evils which were complained of in the debate of last Friday. H e s h ou ld recommend his Hon. Friend to p u t up w i t h the inconvenience, in order to have the examinations which had been taken in that Committee, which the Government had deemed was necessary for the public safety. Mr. HUDSON said that the Committee might have waited very long before they would have got t h e Ra il. way Commissioners' reports, and had the original Mien thin been carried out, not one of the Committees now sitting would have got on with th e i r b us i ness . lie i said, therefore, that t his investigation should take place clause by clause; but . there would, acc o rdi n g t o hi s impression, be a very injurious delay, which would been accompanied by an enormous expense. The proposition of his llor., Friend was, he thought, ex tremely simple, and he hoped that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government would make an explicit statement, for the want of it had been attended with very consider able inconvenience. He sincerely trusted that the pro position which his Hon. Friend had sugge4t-A, whatever might take place, would, by the cc,nsent of the Govern ment, be put before the House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it was a universally agreed proposition by the House, that no Committee should come to a decision before they received the report of the Railway Commissioners. This was the unanimous opinion of the House. Nothing had been found to affect the character of t 6• report of the Railway Commis sioners, and yet the object of the Hon. Member was to bring about a decision for the preamble before the Com mittees received that report. There had been nothing to impeach the report of the Railway Commissioner; he did not see any reason for the alteration. lie had in tended to give notice, in compliance with the reasons which had been adduced that he should move for the appointment of a Select Committee, and he did accord ingly give that notice now. After a few words from Mr. HODGSON and Mr. W. PATTEN, who supported the motion, Mr. BAILEY said the resolution was not only an in convenience to the Members of that House, but to all parties who came before the Committees, and it ought, therefore to be rescinded. Mr. F. BARING trusted that the House would not abandon the resolution which it had passed at a former period of the session. The object of that resolution was to draw the attention of the Committees to a matter of very great importance. It was true there had been some inconvenience resulting from the operation of this reso lution, but then the business of the House was to make ood and perfect laws. If every resolution were to be set aside, on the ground of delay, the House would find that none of its salutary resolutions would be attended to. And it would be found that some of the companies, which were exceedingly alive to everything affect ing their interests, would postpone sending in their finan cial returns, in order to make out a case of grievance, such as that complained of in the first instance. In fact it had been stated that the delay of completing some of the reports had arisen from some of the companies not having sent in their returns. He should most certainly oppose the resolution. After a few words from Mr. SIIAW, Mr. EDWARD ELLICE, jun., thought that a part of the difficulty might be obviated if an understanding were come to between the Chairman of Select Committees and the Chairman of the Commissioners of Railways. Mr. FITZROY said that the feeling of those who , were opposed to his motion might be got over if he in serted the words " Committees now sitting." His im pression was that his motion was necessary, and as he had heard no objection to it to warrant him to withdraw it, he would press it to a division. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, when the numbers were— For the motion Against it Majority POLICE BILLS. Mr. GREENE said it would be in the recollection of the House that a short time ago the Police Clauses Con solidation BM was referred to a Select Committee. Since then several Police Bills had been referred to Committees, and he wished to know from Government whether those Committees ought to proceed with their labours till the report of the Select Committee on the Police Clauses Consolidation Bill was before the House. Sir G. GREY thought that it was exceedingly de sirous—that such a suggestion was valuable, and it was desirable that the Committee should be instituted. Mr. GREENE brought up several reports, the titles of which, owing to the confusion and talk in the House, were inaudible.,. HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL. OlLord DUNCAN gave notice that upon the motion tor going into Committee on the Health of Towns Bill, he should move that it was inexpedient to proceed with the further consideration of that measure until full con sideration had been given to the unequal pressure of the window•tax on the dwellings of the poor. CONSUMPTION OF FLOUR IN COTTON WORKS. Mr. FERRAND gave notice that to-morrow he should ask a question of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government: upon a most important subject ; it appeared that 183,120,000 pounds weight of best flour were used for the purpose of dressing warps to be woven into cloth ; and, also, in daubing cotton with flour paste, with the intention of defrauding the public. The question which he wished to put was, whether it was the intention of the Govern ment to bring in a Bill to prevent the use of flour to such purposes? RAILWAY FINANCE. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ga►e notice that, to-morrow, he should move for the appoint ment of a Select Committee, to inquire into the finan cial position of the various railways in the country, and the various points touched upon in the debate of this evening, with relation to railways. QUARANTINE LAWS. Dr BOWRING wished to ask a question of the Right lion. Gentleman below him, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade. It was reported that a considerable change was to take place with regard to the quarantine liws. He wished, therefore, to know if any new regu• lations were contemplated, and what they were. Mr. MILNER GIBSON said that, with regard to vessels from Egypt and Syria, they were to be put under the same regulations as were applicable to vessels from Turkey, and they were to be admitted under free pra tique, provided they had clean bills of health, and were not laden with susceptible articles. There were further regulations under consideration. BERINGTON'S KNAPSACK AND GIRDLE. Mr. WAKLEY wished to ask the Right Hon. Gen tleman the Secretary at War, what steps have been taken to investigate the merits of the knapsack and girdle invented by Mr. Berington. Mr. FOX MAULE recollected that the subject was brought under the consideration of the House when the army estimates were brought in last year, but he did not recollect that he had said anything which could induce the Hon. Gentleman to suppose that ho would subject the knapsack to any inquiry. He himself, however, had looked at the knapsack, and he had no he sitation in saying that he did not think it deserved the encomiums which had been passed upon it. It was considered most inconvenient, and in the next place was thirteen ounces heavier than the knapsack at present in use, which was eight pounds in weight (as we understood). (" Hear," from Mr. Wakley.) ,He had therefore not thought it advisable to advise the use of the knapsack of Mr. Berington. RIOTS AT TAUNTON. Mr. B. ESCOTT wished to ask a question of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department, which had reference to the preservation of the peace of the country. lie perceived by the newspapers of this morning that considerable public violence had taken place in the west of England, particularly in Taunton, in consequence of the dealers in corn affixing what prices they chose to their commodities; he therefore wished to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman was able to state whether the reports were founded in truth or not; whether there was reason to fear that the alarm which prevailed in the west of England would extend itself to other parts ; and whether he had received any information on the subject, which, consistently with his duty, he thought proper to lay on the table of the House? Sir G. GREY said he hail received information from the civil authorities of Exeter, stating that disturbances had taken place on Friday and Saturday in the west of Cornwall and Exeter, and in one or two other places in consequence of the high price of provisions ; but al though he had seen accounts in the news papers of disturbances which had taken place from this cause in Taunton, he had not received any official information on the subject ; but in consequence of the prompt measures taken by the local authorities, order had been restored in those parts of the country to which he had referred, and he I hoped there was no cause for a l a rm.—(Cheers.) FOREIGN IMPORT AND EXPORT DUTIES. Mr. NEWDEGATE wished to know from the Bight Hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, when the returns ho had moved for with respect 1 to the export and import duties imposed by foreign countries, would b© furnished? Mr. M. GIBSON regretted that so much delay had taken place in the furnishing of the returns which the Hon. Gentleman had moved for. He feared, however, that the Hon. Gentleman did not estimate the labour re quisite for completing such a return, or the one he had moved for, as the most detailed information was neces sary to render them complete. The Custom-house had furnished their portion of the return from time to time, hut he hoped, in the course of a few days, that they would be furnished to the Board of Trade, when they would be laid before the House. No unneccessary delay should take place. SCHOOLS OF DESIGN. Mr. WAKLEY said there was a second question, and he hoped he should have a more satisfactory answer than to the first. It was with reference to the school of design, and he wished to know when the evidence taken before a Special Committee of the council of the School of Design, as to the state and management of the school, is to be presented to the House? Mr. M. GIBSON said that he regretted that such delay had taken place, but he thought that i❑ ten days at furthest he might be able to furnish these returns. Mr. H. BAILLIE said that he had asked the Govern ment the other night, whether it was their intention to restrict the amount of grain in distilleries until the pre sent crisis should be past? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the Government did not think it politic on their part to interfere with the commerce of the country, by placing any restriction upon one of its most important channels. He found that the distillers had stated to the Government, that they were about to use a large quan tity of sugar for the purposes of distillation, and had requested that several of the preliminary investigations might be dispensed with. Under his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) direction, it had been notified that all the obstacles that could be dispensed with should be re moved, for he considered it exceedingly desirable. Mr. HUME said that this day week he would put a question to the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern ment, as to whether it was his intention to take any and other measures for reducing the prices of tea, coffee, articles of similar nature? If so, whether there was to be any reduction of the duty? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the Government had received notice that a consi derable quantity of molasses was required for distilla tion ; but there had been a consideration of other arti cles, with a view to ascertain whether they should re duce the duties on other articles mentioned in the Cus toms Duties Act, and they had found that although the importation of the articles had increased, the prices had not been raised. Among those especially were the arti cles of sugar and tea. ENLISTMENT OF MARINES. _ _ Captain LAYARI) moved for returns connected with the enlistment of marines during the last five years. Mr. E WART wished to know whether the Noble Lord at the head of the Government had any objection to lay upon the table of the Reuse the address of the board of wine-growers, presented a short time back ? Lord J. RUSSELL repliel that there would be no objection whatever. COLONIAL GOVERNMENTS. Mr. HUME said he wished to ask the Under-Secre tary for the Colonies a question, of which he had given notice. It would be remembered that last session he presented a petition from Van Diemen's Land, signed by 6,000 persons, praying the House to apply the repre sentative system of government to that island. Now the question he wished to ask was, whether Government had been maturing any plan for extending the privilege and rights of representative bodies to that island and the other colonies ? Mr. HAWES said, in answer to the question of his Honor.ourable Friend, he had to state that the subject to which he had referred had nct been lost sight of. There was a measure in contemplation—homight say, in preparation—with the view to give the benefits of the British Constitution to the Australian colonies, which had generally included Van Diemen's Land. He did not think, however, that the measure could be intro duced in the present session. - TRANSPORTATION. Mr. EWART asked the Hon. Gentleman the Secre tary for the Colonies whether Government had any in tention of revising the present system of transportation, with a view to an alteration in the law? Mr. HAWES said the subject would shortly come under discussion in that House, when his Noble Friend the First Lord of the Treasury would be prepared to state fully what his intentions were. Mr. P. MILES said, in the early part of the session he moved for certain corn returns in continuation of those which had been annually laid before the House for many years past. It was, however, communicated to him, that an addition he had made to the return would cause a delay in making the return, and ho intimated to the corn-inspector that ho would not press for that part of the return. Still, the return was not forthcoming, and he therefore wished to ask the Hon. Gentleman (the Vice-President of the Board of Trade) whether the return would shortly be laid upon the table of the House ? Mr. MILNER GIBSON said the order was made upon the Treasury, and not upon the Board of Trade ; but, nevertheless, he would make inquiry into the cause of the delay. POOR LAWS. On the order of the day being read for the second reading of the Poor-law Administration Bill, Mr. FERRAND asked the Chancellor of the Ex chequer whether the private defence of the Poor-law Commissioners to the charges brought against them before the Andover Union Committee (intitled, " Let ters addressed by the Poor-law Commissioners to the Secretary of State, respecting the transaction of the business of the Commission, &c., &c., &c.," embellished with the Royal Arms, and " printed by W. Clowes and Sons, Stamford-street, for her Majesty's Stationery Office)," has been printed and circulated with the sanc tion of her Majesty's Government ;—if printed and cir culated with the sanction of her Majesty's Government, whether he intends the expense to be defrayed out of the public purse ;—if printed and circulated at the pub lic expense, whether he will lay upon the table of the House a statement of the expense ? The defence, the lion. Member asserted, contained most unjust calumnies and flagrant untruths, and had not only been circulated amongst Members of that House, but had been for warded to di fferent tradesmen throughout the country. He held in his baud, for instance, a copy which had been sent to a tradesman in Oxford-street. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, with regard to the first question, the Poor-law Commis sioners were called upon by his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Ilome Department to make a defence in gnawer to certain inquiries which he had caused to be instituted into their proceedings, and the Commissioners made what the lion. Gentleman called a private defence, which was comprised in certain letters which were laid upon the table of the House. He did not think, therefore, that the defence could be strictly called a private one. It was certainly true that the let ters had been published and circulated by the Commis sioners, and it had been done by the consent of the Go vernment. With regard to the second question, he cer tainly thought the expense ought to be defrayed out of the public funds, because, in publishing the correspon dence, the Commissioners had only to act in conformity with their usual practice in such matters. POOR LAW IRELAND. Mr. P. SCROPE desired to ask the Secretary fiir Ireland, whether he was prepared to lay upon the table of the House any statement as to the progress of the system of relief in Ireland arider the Temporary Relief Act 1 He also wished to know, whether there was any compulsory power to compel the Relief Com mittee to do their duty, and in cases where they would not do so, to discharge them and appoint fresh officers? The Honourable Member adverted to a charge made against Lord Berehaven, th at th ere h a d b een great dstitution on his estate, and that he only subscribed twenty shillings a month, and that he subsequently withdrew that relief altogether, confining himself for ten months to the inside of his demesne, the gates of which were strictly locked. . _ Mr. LABOUCHERE said that there would be a report laid upon the table of the House which would give his Hon. Friend all the information he desired, he was anxious to say that it was no fault of Sir John Bur goyne that a great many evils had occurred, it was quite true there was great indisposition on the part of many Relief Commissioners to aid the Government, and the people themselves desired to return to the ancient system of road begging. In conclusion he would only say that from hie knowledge of Lord Berehaven, he would not believe that he had been guilty of such inhumanity as that stated by the Hon. Member. That Noble Lord had expressed to him such a concern for the poor in his neighbourhood, that he could not come to any other eonclusion. Mr. SHAW said that he was suite sure that Lord Berehaven could perfectly clear himself of such a charge. And on the part of the Irish proprietors, he would say that the Member for Stroud took advantage in that House to say things which he could not jnstify out of it. Mr. B. OSBORNE said that it was rather hard to blame the Hon. Member for Stroud for his observations on the Irish landlords, for such a course was so popular, that it was not to be wondered at. WARNER'S EXPERIMENT. Lord INGESTRE said, with reference to an answer from a Member of the Government respecting Captain Warner's invention, he would say that he himself was a witness of the late experiment, and he wholly disagreed in the unfavourable opinion which was given of it. NEW POOR-LAW BILL. Mr. FERRAND, on the order of the day for the second reading of the New Poor Law Bill being read, asked the Law Officers of the Crown, by what authority Par. liament is invested with the right to delegate to any person, or body of persons, the power of making rules and orders which shall be as biudinz and authoritative upon the people of England and Wales as an Act of Parliament ? If Parliament is not thus authorised, by what statute can the people of England and Wales be forced to obey, as law, the rules and orders of the Poor law Commi.sioners ? If there be no statute, have not all parsons committed to prison for disobeying the rules and orders of the Poor-law Commissioners been illegally deprived of their liberty? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that Parliament had an inherent right to delegate its power to any person or persons in such a manner as should be binding upon the people. He mentioned courts of law, and other tribunals, as instances where this power had been exercised. Sir JOHN WALSH desired to ask the Member for Stroud whether he had communicated with Lordßere haven relative to the charge he brought against him. Mr. P. SCROPE replied that he had not, and that it was objected to mention anonymous cases. He would be quite happy if Lord Berehaven was enabled through his means to justify himself, for the present was not the first time such charges had been made. ,rges THE MOTT CASE. Mr. FERRAND desired to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the appointment of Mr. Mott to the office of district auditor received the sanction of the Poor-law Commissioners after he had been dismissed from the office of Assistant Poor-law Commissioner ? Who. ther the Poor-law Commissioners allowed him to hold the office of district auditor at the time that he was part proprietor of the Haydock Lodge Lunatic Asylum, or after the Commissioners in Lunacy declared, in their report on the state of the Haydock Lodge Lunatic Asylum, that Mr. Mott had failed to fulfil a positive and solemn pledge which he had given to the justices of Lancashire, and that he appeared quite unworthy of the trust, and became most negligent and remiss in the discharge of his functions? Whether they have al. lowed him to hold the office of district auditor of Lanca shire, whilst living in the Isle of Man, out of the way of his creditors; after he was seized by a sheriff's officer, when on his read to audit the union accounts; during_ the time he was a prisoner in Lancaster Castle; and after a public advertisement appeared intmhe moneyT newspaper, warning the public not to ia pa a l pay hi belonging to the proprietors of the Haydock do a c bti k a L do o n dg ed e Lunatic Asylum? Whether h the discharge of his duties, ande holding the office of district auditor?h left England, ag although Sir G. GREY said d t Mr. ho li d ot t t h h e a d situation riotbeen referred dismissed, t nor had he ceased a el n e d c i t d e a d t . es A fo t r th t e he ele s c it t u io a n tio na n a , d f p ro b m y There whom two had ha b d een ho 3 on 7 c s the guardians there had been ten votes for Mr Gardiner and fourteen for Mr. Mott. The Act of Parliament did not require the sanction of the Poor•lavv Commissioners to the election ; nor was it considered that his manage w ent of the Haydock lod ge L unat i c Asylum was a legal diaojsffiu justices c . t e se T o hr h ra ai i tnp having art adne eif i Glared e u gd a u l eh i fi si mt c i a o tuni wch his y referred o holding his t rtuo s t tt h h w e e further, the Poor-law Commissioners had no official in ( formation of the allegations in the third part of the question ; and with regard to the fourth, the Poor-law Commissioners had received letters from Mr. Mott upon official business, from Manchester, dated the 7th May, where they believed him to bo at present re siding. POOR-LAW ADMINISTRATION BILL. The Order of the Day for the second reading of the Poor-law Administration Bin being read, Mr. BANKES presented a petition from a union in Dorsetshire, complaining of the conduct of the auditor for neglect of duty, and that they had received no re dress from the Poor-law Commissioners. The petition was ordered to lie on the table. Mr. FERRAND said he was thankful to his Right Hon. Friend, the Attorney-General, for the manly man _ ner in which he had answered his question. Notwith- standing, however, the high respect which he enter tained for the legal knowledge ut his Learned Fiend, he would be enabled t produce much kigher authority to bear out his own view of the case. He could not but express his astonishment at the declaration made by particularly H on. Baronet when,wthe Ri g h t H onourable Baronet, the Secretary for the who o had it preceded hacl be Home Dep ar t ment, that Mr. Mott had not been dismissed en ih s e ta n te o d me by s ' e t c h r e eta ß r)r igh in t that office, had declared that he had been dismissed, and that the Hon. Member for Bolton knew the cause why he had been removed. He would leave that between them ; but he could not but observe that something wrong had been said to one or the other of them. He was ready to admit that the Right Hon. Baronet had said what be believed to be true. At the close of last session the present Secretary for the Home Department had give a pledge that a Committee would be appointed in the present session to inquire into the poor-laws. Sir GEORGE GREY denied that he had given any such pledge. Mr. FERRAND said there could be no doubt that he had been so reported in all the papers. The Noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury, had also declared that he was prepared to defend the conduct of the Poorslaw Commissioners. He would that night have an opportu nity of doing it. He hoped he would do so, and prove that the new poor-law had obtained for the people the blessings which were held out would follow in its train— that it had been a blessing, and not a curse. He, at all events, could prove it had failed in conferring any such advantages, and that it was a complete failure, and had crumbled into pieces. The people of this country had been accustomed to boast that they were never called upon to obey any law which was not passed by both branches of the Legislature, but notwithstanding, they had been obliged, now for thirteen years, to obey the orders of the Poor-law Com missioners, as the law of the land. A Committee of that House had been appointed to inquire into the operation of that law, and after having sat for four months, they came to the decision that the Poor-law Commissioners had acted in a most arbitrary manner towards the As sistant Poor-law Commissioners. He thought it was not sufficient that the Poor law Commissioners should be dismissed, but that the law should be repealed. When the law was first broached it was supported by men whose object was to do away with poor-laws altogether, and to punish poverty as a crime. The person who first brought it forward was Lord Brougham, who, be fore he introduced it obtained a pledge from both the political parties that they would net repeal what ever might be the extent of the opposition raised against it. He would ask, who had been selected to guide the Bill ? No other than Mr. Malthus, a man whose opinions on the subject was odious to the country.—(An lion. Member said he was dead.) Well, then, he left his legacy behind him. Hew as Lord Brougham's guide in this measure. He who had de " clared that he who was not provided with necessaries by his parents, had no right to food ; that no place had been provided for him at Nature's feast, and that he had no right to be there. Lord Brougham defended this gentleman, and stated that he had been greatly misrepresented, and that he was a most humane and amiable man. A Commission was then appointed to inquire into the old poor-law, and evidence taken by Assistant Poor-law Commissioners, who knew what was required of them, and did what they were ordered, as obedient servants. Then came forth the re port, that " dark document," which was so bad and wicked, that the Duke of Wellington denied its existence. It was opposed by a friend of his, now on a bed of sick ness (Mr. Walter), whose services would last for cen turies, when the Hogg Baronetcy would be buried in oblivion.—(Partial murmurs.) That document had been signed by two of the bishops of their church, the Bishops of London and Chester. Lord Althorp introduced the Bill into that House, which gave power to the Poor ; law Commissioners to limit the amount of food, but not to increase it, and also to lower wages. In the correspondence of Messrs. Ashworth and Gregg, it appeared that the guardians, in a case of a strike for a ages, were authorised to refuse relief if they knew the parties could earn wages upon which they could earn a subsistence. As soon as the New Poor law Bill passed, the Poor-law Commissioners employed persons as Assistant-Commissioners, whom they sent to the agricultural districts to induce the people to leave their homes, assuring them that if they did so, they should have abundant employment in the manufacturing districts. They placarded places with tables of wages, which they never did, and it was never intended that they should receive. One one of the blackest thing they did was to send Dr. Kay down to Suffolk and Norfolk to induce the labourers to go to Manchester, where they sent them ticketed and labelled, like beasts to the slaugh ter. But, as his Right Hon. and Learned Friend (the Attorney-General) seemed to smile, he thought it his duty to reiterate what he had said : the labourers sent to Manchester were actually ticketed, packed in boats, and without any places to go to, turned adrift in the streets of Manchester in the middle of the night. But they should now hear Dr. Kay's own description of this town three years before. In describing it, he said that the inhabitants had ceased to have a pride in the tip ; pearance of their houses. They spent their lives in squalid wretchedness—their domestic economy was neglected—their houses were ill furnished and ill ventilated their food meagre, and not nutri tious, and they frequently fell victims to drink. Such was the description of Manchester, when the inha bitants of the southern districts of England were to be absorbed into the workshops of the manufacturers. He would detail to the House the cruelties inflicted upon those agricultural labourers. Not content with calling in the military, the Government sent down the Metro politan Police, and there, with drawn cutlasses they sought to enforce those tyrannical laws. They sold up thousands of the poor people. Immense buildings were erected in the county as modern bastiles, where they were immured in cells, not allowed to go a place of worship, their diet tables were worse than those of felons, they were com pelled to wear a felon's dress, and they branded their clothes with the name of " the union workhouse" upon it, their furniture was sold, husbands were separated from their wives, and children stolen from their parents at the point of the bayonet. The union workhouses were cleared, and its inmates sold to the manufacturers. He held in his hand an application of one of the manu facturers for these poor people to the guardians of the poor of the Llangollen Union, dated only twelve months since, in which the applicant stated that he had employment in his mills for twenty or thirty females, and also a number of boys, and stating that if there were any in the union fit for such employment, one of the firm would come over to the union and bring those unfortunate creatures to the factory districts. And who ware the parties who were chosen to look over those unfortunate creatures? Why, it was a well-known fact that if the Government could offer the office, a non-com missioned officer of the cavalry, whose previous occupa tion might be supposed to have inured him to wretched ness or made his heart callous, was the person whose services they were most glad to obtain. These unions were formed so large that the poor had to travel to the board of guardians ten, twenty, and even thirty miles, in order to obtain their paltry pittance. Such was the distance they had to travel that it often occupied three whole days in going and returning from the union. lie held in his hand a letter from a clergyman, in which he stated that he knew a poor man who had to travel 24 miles every week in order to obtain even a sixpence. Then, in addition to this, the poor have died in numbers from want and improper medical treatment.—(Hear, hear.) Aye, numbers have died from those sources under the sanction of the Poor-law Commissioners and the Government. Sueh were some of the horrible effects of this blood-stained law—for such it was. Yes, blood had been shed, and that too at the point of the bayonet, in. the endeavours of the Government to enforce the cruelties of that law. He would read to the House the solemn pledges made by Lord Brougham when he pleaded in the House of Lords for the second reading of this ini quitous Bill. (The Hon. Member then proceeded to read an extract from the speech of the Noble Lord, in which he stated that that measure would elevate the character of the people of this country, give a new im pulse to property, and destroy idleness and vice.) How had (continued the Hon. Member) these pledges and promises been realised ? The people had been robbed and plundered under the operation of that law for upwards of thirteen years. Was it to h e supposed now that the curtain wa ; allowed to descend quietly over those scenes of horror, of blood, and of cruelty ? If the Government was prepared to take upot i itself the responsibility of all these accumulated ere elties, they certainly possessed more courage and brae cry than he had ever given them credit fur possessing. Before the passing of this taw the people were pro wised good wages ; neat, good, and comfortable houses. But what was the result, as appeared by the stet - clients of Cri d e H in. Member for Manchester some time 811..32? He sai d fiat the people of Manchester were some ereofin theth m living upon Id. per day ; t hat the y habit of eating dead t horses, s st pover y striken were great masse s of the people, clothes that they were in the habit of pawning their . day the o b ta in their bed clot hes from the. evening in order to pawnbroker's m to cover them a t ni g ht . !sad thought it his duty to move some time since for a - return of the mode in which the poor bad been dispo s ed of ; and although that return had been ordered., swill not the slightest notice had been taken of that ordcr, and the reason given for it was that Ao possibl e account could be obtained. and no return had been enade from that day to this. In the year 1843 the 'poor-law had been in peration nine years. Now, what was the effect or this law upon the • • moral s , the condition, and the habits of the people ? Teat law, which bad been pledged to produce such bensericial results ? He I 'egged to read to the House a stetereent, made by wee of the pre • sent Cabinet Ministers. Lord Howick, when. a, Member of this House, stated that in Sunderland the po<ir-rates had risen to 18s. in the pound. (The lion. Mem her then proceeded to read ae considerable length au extr act from a speech of Lord. Howick.) What a contra st (con tinued the Hon. iliember) did that statement p resent to the fair pledges and promises made by Lord It: •ougham, and others, w hen the measure was introduc ,ed. He would, therefore, convict the Government or f having. been false prophets out of the mouth of on e of the members, of their own Cabinet. He would else read to the House a statement made by Lord arollglisst a in the year 1843, nine years after the passinr, of t. he Act, in order to show to the House in - what . manner the, operation of the law a w a d born ;0 out the pledges and promises of its sup. porters. The Hon. Gentleman then read an extr act fr om the Times of 1843, stating that a great numb( -e of fese poor of Stourbridge were subsisting upon turnip a t on e, and that the farmers in the neighbourhood had bad five, or six tons a week stolen ; b ut t h ey were in s uch a dea."": able state that the p ersons cou ld not -id it in thei r hearts to prosecute them. He held in bier band an account of proceedings which took place in a same year at the Brentford Sessions, before the magi rates esf thee county of Middlesex. A poor man war 4 brow4ht u. 9 before them in the prison dress, and brand ed in I ' l, y l he had mentioned. The magistrates, a Lid five or via !ittj~ '