The Sun. — London, England, 1817-03-04 00:00:00

101 ~M~ . , ~, , . . 6,,„1:4 4,lol4l4rutioner even before lie hid ,1 — ,..,a alitSbet tif-this House, he could not .V,lPl'ttleif the ratification of adding one or :rollfs. to the impleicatimOnies of the virtues .!?n' tillYttlrelffed girt, it was pleasing to °h elicit *hotelier difference of .opinion might exist in the lint c°lll4 sil ls t ee on ordinary occas i ons, they y thera.alitle to u n i te on a subject, in 11111llkill, 110-.1'6-Moe with th e country, they had 414-10 !Masi', so Irreparable a loss. But ilta l 1113.0ettrely -his talents ; transcendent as liblltrer*, Which etonmanded the admiration of t„'"u°,',lf tile inn charm of his oratory Was 1---jr.masepitical spirit, Its recant! charm was his ,4!°4litnteuee'--lits noble and exalted sentiments 7,lll rtre t If to these were added his private vir ile,H"lllesitilliitilti be .e that the House never was 11 , 4 k t " e Plore Is.loll more severe —(Hear, hear, -16ik''''''iltuveS'er high hii public virtues, thos e . ere--"It abet~ sir his friends and his faint sit leiel'*liith" (bent 1 .--( Ilea r , hear !) g) .„kttLibilickt;taeieirtdd not'refraili from stating r"wogithiteliell nil of adelitation and respect which he . oat tlifeintoiiii 'tif Mr.- HOrher 1 ttitegitlitsie+ln private Ile, in emit - top r''7'lll.lo)-iitetb4 private, spoken, felt twat by his illtii.l444l)ttyliail 'aristainell'n. most extreme ,i 7t o il i• j l, ll9ll g.il , V itt the present tinestioo r. ' th etas', '""4ot - or Able to come to any decision . the .s/ritift.liorner'S character, yet he I tht 0-0' HreiAltsl: lf:the„ strotimente, of the House 1414 4 . , by 4. trots' on that subject, it 0,4); , -4 egi l-00-31 411ti050n5 ,.,- (Cbeering from all 41-0 - r I 9i) Walt then—i I LA retiti to. , ° l 4l4Ydttsi _pr• - -:. ' • 4111 0 . .11, Y esent:tt ,a petition from ` .1. .. against th• Hobttas Corp the R t, 1 ILI v " i i whitis W 43 reed e awl yrdered to us . , P ifie I ~.--7 Oval 9ruerfetl for the election of a fl ir t. if; ibi Prirliament fur the, 80, , ll l , _ , : s .i s tiiell, - . its „Au room of Lord John ' . At s.' .iin, ~. talerzto it, t ry ' • rillL ~,,ort.tmheil to know when)" it . ic ,-,74,14..netv Lottery 440 90 was to be euntractert 4 it'-. Al,Fiti,tee of the' ExcitegNEß 1 4 144 ;MI that the contract WAS iti, Cc to .14 trims nt th e Act bf Pediment ~ . si,s,wi,„,,, to know whether i,trir ofas t /le kn i i i i) 4eP lip the offices of Inspect' .. itit v"1/12:411 : Win/ had been appointed wall 7-..,:i4,414.1,:4, lalt-ear, when the Propel ty Tax le ' 4 't() per , cent. ? 4 44teesl.t.o ilqtaih_ , It of the ExcriECIUBR, .inlei.ittvie ,o4 41 li Noble Lord's question, beggi-," have t ,Sti to to the Repor t of the three C . oinni Illirlyh ten ttli.e Reduction of Offices, which hadti tp,Areillit'lti before the House, and by i:et.. 11 44 (lwi thi ' l 'at all those inspectors were to be t s k h ,llli tle l'e all of three, atilt the reason 441 Iii t tl . r te Were to be stilt kept up would be II vla Ilea 14 ' i ttet, putt. I4),tvtth,,,s ordered to be kid before the }Loose Cil47 ttl,ltis tile Salaries of th e Clerks and other' iilittl!! Post-Office, with the dates of til I . ll4 ' ‘ t4l anti noY augmentation ot their Ski firiA: tlii rellt:to AccorN-rs. etOjI4IOII,ANI WI 11 , t1 t itt ki it Li tt) , 3 L o ask a question public il l lb. UntOttliiii%sitlll for auditing rela ',. 4/II 'e 4,) 'expellee of which altogether appea r ed , 14rs 4!,,17.000/. or 18,0001 , a year. For 0 4. 1 4 „ it .'' kk Lill, its expences were 40,00 01 . . kb il i t liitola,t of RCeotints audited was only N ii ttf ,h().do/. whic h Wait an expellee to t 1 01. bil; 4 ttq t ,,,‘e 41 . per cent. for the amount Li lit„qkliintiti4 Itti llited. At this rate, if the Lis " I,;tat,,ii;t4thonnted to fitly millions, the ex . - 4 4 . 'lto, 1 1 4 their, ;done would cost the Puhite t, 14 1 11 1 ', i4111.4&1. 't he first item in the account , It o t 'lii ii , J ,of the A uditor -General of this , ti gill ii I : Nell was 3000/ , a yea r ; and it tuns li t Xi received tinder the Act of the 46th It. stn 1 2 ,,, Litt h ,. u 9l . II year, end 3001. for house t".4lleil to kiwis , i t the salary of 12001. i,entietted during that Officer's stay a t ere, ' '''.ol,:`,.4latt,„ ‘ . . 1 h 1 , 1 : lit e ~ -",' Of the EXCHEQUER said, that w i l ' i tar.Q:. toe account, it appeared that [l tti N, ,;111.41 received the whole of these teiii." 'Fell, eoesidering the heavy ex 'lttitir "eh It r th 'tleri that " was subjected, was but lust. t 'reet but tile e xpenses of this Commission '4O ' C I . I t titles ihoonlie advantages to the public see- . motile *link °llaidy great. It was expectid o tl al titi tip .Itruolint of the txpence of this 41,14001. 'us termination would be about C, i v •.14 4 ~,, Nl q . . (S" (If ' ''"fl lie teas well aware of the h ll 114"Iiiiig through these most complex e ll 4 f t ' i l l 'leti ti e , e n 'l l 'i )ear testimony to the e . hle ,h, :14)irivid.'uhhtnr-General, Mr. Dawkins, 11:,,Ilsouw. d 'llls mid most lahriotts offiee• „,,,,,i4g 04e,“" desired not to p e under sto od tt,4l.ltouii7i'd a%hitist Mr. Dawkins, ‘vhom it h u he u most deserving public ' q k ! Itil t 41 : 14 1) ° bite tettinThßy to the ability with i rlr it i 4 litykiris ex e c °` his ss Peliaqi,, i ., li ee ltoe duties of "..lhe nie.„«,,)ity of the utility of this Com i EN T , '' li ~ was then acrreed to. ertS 11.01:.„,t18.,141414.1Nr.i5' 11611,L. I 1. I e t i q 1 ,11 114 tf 1 ?"ettAi sole to move the se 44111:14”gted fr,) ( l ,: la ni l e li h il, a• lid said that those ,who ,1)11,1,, extensive ' l , lO ll of the Secret tont „ sliatinns t .3ta.no dangerous conspiracies tlii,r.t, of Rum, x _t t‘i, would he satis fi ed of the il it '; tail ititetwe'le ililli. the only Meetings i, 4tietion of ' °Prevent were such as hail ' tt sit ir w iliel i t„4„ cell"ill numb er of Magis- Itillpe4)tielle.s whie'ilYetill.ot„.entivenell according cllit 11,1111 ,lits 4 'Atecti t Isill would prescribe. i!tii tbitttiltolders wi ' l l o tg to be demanded by any ~ ti etio 4 1 tty 1; e kr,,,.21e to giv e in their I,' Us e ,41,noiti exl'i."."'il who they art:. The r 'in ß t )111, wh it ' Jilted the other regula -4141, t i t i iitly atti„l.(tVtrit toprevent the pro illth)f,t.,44 whit:it:l44 matter at any such 4 tv ill it here w43t. Ake!) up. litlty thilmt4itied it tiolewt"old cause, the persons 11 c. proceeded i ti ll e tel i ii ii I the file yea,Pulie necessity for the leti. kUI el. 1/9G, Tle should pro -411 i l u.Y te,,.4114e 1( 4 e -a it i --,41 preventing Aieetings order ,i.u.useholders, front being. .4,4 there might be proper notice given of evel.), Meeting, es an Otiginal One. This would prevent large bodies of people from • being kept in a state of fancied contiguity, if he might so call it. The object of the gill, therefore, was .not to touch any fair and legitimate Meetings, but only to prevent or check sneli as were of a mischievous tendency, Another object was, to prevent Debating Societies. or rooms for reading newspapers, the keepers of which receive money. This was the purport of the law in 1796 ; but which being found ineffectual, was. amended in 1799. But as the regulation respecting these rooms were contained in the 36th of the King, when that Act expired, that of the39th expires) also. The second object of the Bill was therefore in tended to unite the intentions of the two Bills just alluded to. It was not intended to make these regulations perpetual, but only temporary; name ly, for three years, and to the end of the then next Session of Parliament. The statute of 1799 had for its object the suppression of certain socie ties specified by mune, and others constituted in a particular way ; such as those that ad ministered oaths and tests, or.those which haul branches and delegates. But that statute did not touch the great evil of certain societies of (lie present time, such as those for inducing people to commit acts of insurrection against the Govern ment, through the means of what they called de legates, committees, or missionaries, to confer with other societies. These were to be declared unlawful combinations, and the object of the Bill was to prevent the evils that arise from them, Another object of the 13.11 was, to suppress the Spenceun Societies, , whose . princi ples were totally incompatible with any civilized state of society, or any regular 3yttem of Uhvern mew. Therefore, with respect to that society called Spenceans,, the very doctrines it held out, condemned it as unlawful without any inquiry. - The same exceptions in the 39th of the King, respecting the Lodges of Freemasons, &c. would be admitted in the present Bill. lit tact, it was not in:ended to atlect any Societies but such as were evidently constituted for the purposes of mis. chief, having in view the overturning the-Govern ment, and destroying whatever Irian holds valua ble in society. A Message from the Lords announced that their-Lordships had agreed to the Malt and Pen. slums' Duty Bill. Mr. Possotia observed, that as there were. more stages than one in which this Bill could be examined, lie should not oppose the second read ing. lie saw no objection to the provision re specting having seven resident householders to sign every requi;ition. lie had, however, some objections to other parts of the Bill ; but he wished it to go intoa Committee, where an oppor- tunity would be afforded fur better understanding it. He saw no reason why the part of the Act of 1799, which held out inducements to persons to quit such societies, who had belonged to them before it was passed should be omitted. The Right Hon. Gentleman made some observations on other parts of the Bill, with a view to their verbal improvement.' Mr. CALVERT had attended one of those regn lady called meetings this morning in the Borough, The meeting came to an unanimous resolution to petition the House against the passing of any other law besides the habeas Suspension Act, which might abridge or curtail the liberties of the people. This ,petition he should have the honour of presenting to-morrow, and must there fore protest against the hurrying of the present Bill. Sir. F. DURDETT felt it impossible not to protest against this measure in every stage of it. it was a cruel infringement on the liberties of the sub.: jeet, to prevent the people from meeting to pea.; tints for any remedy of their grievances. It at tacked the most important right of petitioning that House. The people now complained so loudly, that Ministers did not choose to listen to their complaints, and therefore they tried to stifle their voice. It was the petitions that had already come in that alarmed them, and induced them to take such unjust steps. There were 600 petitions now on the floor of the House, signed by more than a million of people. There never was a pc riod of such distress, wherein the people had con ducted themselves with skid) unexampled order and patience ; and he , would therefore say, that there was not the slightest pretence for thus in fringing on their rights.„ The present measure was the most unjustifiable and unjust of any that had been brought before the House ; for it was utterly impossible `that any danger could arise the'Snenceans, were it only from the ab . serility of their'princiPles. Lord W.,ltussuta..prAested against the Bill before the Muse, The7.lill for the Suspension Of the Habeas Corims.:4st and Trial by Jwry bad been carried, and be .tit'atild not consent that one iota more should be.subtiacted from the liberties of the people. Mr. LAW was decidedlyin favour of the mea sure. ThoSe who were alarmed at it out of doors, were only.so from the fear of not being able to carry their machinations into effect. The Bill, so far from taking away the right of petitioning, gave the right of free discussion. Could th*s he said- to be taken away, because Magistrates. rat tended at the meeting, and au opportunity was given them of knowing the real state of the coup- .try ? If it were granted that the schemes of the Spenceans were impracticable, would it be said that there was no datiget in the dissemination of their principles 1, Their object was to make their harvest from the property of those they were cicleavouring to overthrow. Notwithstand ing the enactments in ,the measure, before the House, meetings might,still be, held at different places on the same day, which might distract the attention of the Magistrates anti the military force of the country., Ile, tb.i n ght it might be so ar ranged, that, persons who intended to call nieo ings..shOuld be obliged fo,giye a notice of a week or . ten days, that the Magistrates might be enabled to take their measures beforehand. Sir ' 2 „ JOHN NEWPORT hoped ,the „ t a il! would only be Committed pro forma,, a4;it • war not too much to expect that the House wOUld,!talt 4 o every part Of it into its most mature cot it i leration after it was printed. — Stime'explanatorysOngtatitin took place be tween Mr.Calveit, ni!:Betibelig;OftlCattlereigh, and Sir JolauVewporr 'tifttv • -r ~. The AftottrzeV-Gestett tr. observed, that the promoters oldie Bill felt it their duty, as well as their inclination, to bring forward all the'cleuses they meant to propose at once, and that they would have nothing to add in the Committee. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman then entered into similar explanations of the nature and tendency of the measure as had been afforded by the Soli citorrGeneral. Mr. Gunton' said a few words. Sir M. W. RIDLEY wished. to call the attention of the House to the Clause relating to D sortlerly Houses, which described as such those where per sons assembled to read books, pamphlets, - and newspapers. He also strongly objected to the preamble, which set out with asserting, that " whereas assemblies of the people have been pro ductive of riots and disorders," which rendered this measure necessary. Now, he would appeal to every man who beard him, whether this was not a gross libel upon the people. He would say it states what is not true ; for, with the solitary exception that occurred in Spa-fields on the 2d of Deceinber, there had been no riots or disorders at any such meetings. Such a falsehood, ther4ore, ought not to pass without serious animadversion Lord Cocoaatie hoped the House would pause before they gave Ministers the power to suppress all the public sources of reading and information. He adverted to whet bad been mentioned in the Report respecting the disposition of the people at Glasgow, and begged leave to read an extract of a letter from Mr. Macarthur (whose name had been introduced on former evenings) on that sub ject. it stated that people were persecuted by the Spies of Government. One Gentleman had been seized in his bed at one in the morning, charged by a malicious Spy with disaffection, and having arms in his house. Heleas thrown into a d ungeon and kept for two nights ; but when examined, lie was liberated, the whole being false. The 'letter added that the reign of terror was begun., and the indignant people must detest the practices that were resorted to to ensnare the unwary, as time above was a plot of time creatures in the p a y o f Government. The Meetings alluded to at Glasgow were not political, hutnutrely for obtaining paro chial relief, which- was not obtained in Scotland as in England. He was afraid the intention of all these Bills was the destruction of the preiq, as no man would .ha sate after they had passett; for if be went.intri a box in a coffee house, anti gave a free opinion, a waiter might inform against him, on,whose oaths he would be committed. This was really not a state in which the people deserved to be placed. The Lord Mayor had,. be under Stood,• stated at the Common Coun cil, that lie himselt had furnished two-thirds of the contents of the green bag, and he did not be lieve in the serious opinions that had been enter tained about them. It might be very convenient for Ministers to,.divert the attention of doe public from those objects which were really injurious to the country, and which struck at the very roots of trade and commerce. But he trusted the gond sense of time House would see through this. He read further extracts from the iibove-rueetioned letter, which stated, that time people of Glasgow had published a declaration, in which they stated, that they had seen with grief the Reports laid be fore Parliainemmt, which as far as they related to them, contained not a shtiilaw of truth. They had never heard even the name of the Spenceans till they had seen it in the newspapers. The Lord Mayor (his Lordship continued) had esti mated the whole - number of these visionaries as not exceeding 100, and there was plenty of room in Bedlam for them all. It was, therefore, ne cessary that a Bill, for which such Societies was made the pretext, should undergo the mos minute discussion. Mr. BAHING conceived that every Gentlonanii the House was AS able to judge of the state of the country as every Member of the Committee ; and, certainly, as far as his knowledge extended, there was no occasion whatever for invading the ties 'of the people. lie had not the least doubt th►►t some blasphemous publications „bad been brought before the Committee ; but lie could not for a motneht believe that sttch, publications • pre vailed throughout the cpun!ry.. There never was a time within his recollection or reading, when there existed a stronger religious feeling and re- •_ neration ,for those sacied subjects, the detestation of which seemed by the Report to be one of the . grounds of these proceedings. This was a period in which enthusiasm seemed to have taken 'hold of tt►e roiods of wen, and a disposition had spr►►ng up in the lower classes to dive into unknowable mysteries, and to puzzle themselves with what they had better leave alone.---(A laugh.)—As to the riot which followed the meeting at Spa-fields. a very inconsiderable part of the population of the metropolis had been concerned icu it . : . half a dozen people got down from a waggon,•and very few joined them on their way to the . . -City. With respect to the Spencean plan, he had never once beard of it till he saw the lc port ; and, even then, he knew so little of the founder of that sect, that he thtnglift he had been a Mr. Spence who wrote a pamphlet a few years ago on foreign commerce. Connecting these eir cat»stances together, he was decidedly of opinion that there had been very great exaggeration in the apprehensions of the Committeel - I'nd of his Majesty's Ministers. lie cold,' not hnt think, that ►►il the plots or plans, or Whntcver they ►were to be called, might have been put down, jf lett alone, with perfect security to the country. It did not appear that them was any intention of opposing the BilLgoing into a Cominitteu ; and, therefore, be should not deliver his opinions upon it at present ; but he could not suffer it to pass even thus far, without stating, that it' contained some provisions, which, if ultimately carried, would give Ministers a disoetionary power over the most harmless intercourse of society, Mr. IVY NNE, as he lead not been a Member of the Committee, had had no opportunity of know- ing the nature of the evidence on which they had founded the Report ; but from reading that Re- -port, he_ had no hesitation in believing that. the d„„ ger . ex truded to a much greater length than was generally thought. How the Lord Mayor could have searched through the contents of the sealed bag, and have known the evidence.; hat the Members had before them was to him a mystery. The Report did not state thOse societies to be fire= valeta over every part of the kingdom, b ut over a ' very great part. He could not do otherwise tha n give his confidence to those who fratr ed the Report : as it was not possible', 11,,r would it have been justifiable tor them to give the evidence. Ile would not, however, pledge himself to give his support to the whole of these measures, particularly to those that applied to reading rooms 811(1 libraries, which he thought %vent farther than any thing that was ever in the contemplation of any man !Afore. The Honour able Gentleman adveried to the nature of the Riot Act, which was as old as almost any law in exist ence. It made the hundred liable to the damage committed by rioters but it had been decided that damages could not beTecovered, unless it was proved that it was the intent of the rioters to destroy the house. In the riot on the 2d of De cember, one person had his house entered and robbed of property .:0 the Lllllootit of 10001. and I.e could gain no redress whatever. lie there fore suggested, whether it would not be advise able to extend redress in cases of riots of all de scriptions. Lord RANCLIFEE differed front the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last; lie thought the Lord Mayor w . as as likely to know the nature of the contents of the green bag as Alinisters them selves. The Bill was then read a second time. ' Mr. PONSONBY put off his motion till to-mor row, on the 'subject of coetinning commissions on the demise of the Crown. The Hon. Gentle man thought there could be no objection to Ills motion being brought on to-morrow, as thella beas Corpus. Bill would receive the Royal..As:ieot. and there could_then be no necessity for hurrying the present Bill through the House. The CHANCELLOR of the Ii'ACHEQUER sail. there was no with on the part of Ministers that it should he unnecessarily hurried; but, on the other hand, it was desirable that it should mit be unnecessarily delayed. It was proper that time should be allowed to afford the measure due con sideration ; but he thought even the House must wish the blanks to be filled tip as soon as possible. Mr. l'oNsoNeY iViSilell not to interpose unne cessary. delay, and hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not carry the Bill through the House with unnecessary haste. The CHANCELLORHOf the EXCHEQUER had no objection to the motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman being bronght on to-morrow. The Bill was ordered to be committed to-mor-. row. The House went i►►toa Committee on the Carte Repot t ordered to he received to-morrow. The Report respecting the London Coal Trade was brought up, and leave given to bring in a Bill. Lord PALMERSTON gave notice, that on Wedrecday, ho should move fur a grant of 500,0001. un ,account of the Ordnance, and on Monday, that the Estimates be %alien into consideration.' Mr. CALCRAFT could have wished ,a later day was ap pointed for considering the Eitimates. The Array tirdoetion Bill was read a third time and passed. The Treasonable Practices Bill was read a third time and passed. The noise resolved into a Committee on the Passengtrs Regulation Bill.—Report to be received to-morrow. REFORM PETITIONS. Sir' F. BURDETT *moved, that the Petitions which lay on the floor, signed by neatly a Million Of subscribers, should be received. (There ap peared to be nearly a svaggan-load of petitions; they lay in a heap, and almost covered the floor pf the House w•e understood there were (iOO of them ) The SrEAKEß.—Bring them op.- 7 -(A laugh.) Sir FRANCIS' Buanirr then stated, that they were all to the same effect ; but after the clerk had read the. names of. libtaburnc, Derby, Hod. derstield, Kingston-upon• Hull, Manchester • and Salford, Bolton- le-Moor, Loughborough, and Mel bourne, it appeared that a great proportion of tire Petitions were printed, .upon which the Speaker informed the lion. Baronet, that he must take - all such back ; one also was discovered to be ad dreased to the Prince Regent, which was likewise ordered to be returned. • Mr. 'MANNING rose to order, and observed, that when the thin. Baronet knew that he had GOO petitions to present, he should have consulted the convenience of the House in ascertaining whether they were printed or no, and he trusted that the Hon. BarOnet would be cantions - for tht future. Atter a few words from Sir FR A cis, The SPEAKER suggested the propriety of pro, cceditig - with the 'petitions sonic other 'day, 'Au which Sir Francis acceded; and intimated that he should theniusist on the propriety of receiving printed petitions. Serjeaut BEST having objected to - the language and mode of signattne in sonic of the petitions; The SPE AE. ER observed, that every one ac quainted with the proceedings of the House knew how much business was done on .the faith and confidence reposed in Members ; it was therefore. to he expected, that - no petition which had once been rejected would be presented a second time after some few words from Mr. LA W And SIC F, 13uRDurr, The SPeAßrit again soggested the propriety of adjourning to another occasion the question, ttbfit the petitions do lie on the table. A Member having discovered that one whole column (if signatures was in the same hand-wr4- iti;f:, end dm; many signatures were detached from any petition, moved the adjournment of the ques tion, in which he was seconded by Mr. LAw. Mr. Cat.eriAier thought it dillicultto decide at a „§ingle glance that any number of signatures w'As in one hand-whiting ; he extenuated the langu,ige of the petitions ; and thought the signatures ntigjtt H litre been detach e d by acc id ent . e considered the proposed adjournment ai inenn'venient. After a few words from the SPEAK 4n, Serjeant BEST insisted, that the sending a num ber of Signatures In the'same hand-writing MA S is gross contempt of the _House; and that if the House wished to preserve to the sub ject the valuable right of petitioning, they ought 0 watch over the tit►c aitti'detent exercise of it. Sir Fltattms .113uRnerr explained, that the sig. nattires , had been accidentally detached. Scrjeant ONst.ooi defended Serie:int BEST; Atter a conversation between the Speaker and Sir C. Monk, on the soVect of signing by proxy, which the Speaker declared to be inadmissible, except in the case of a party who was tibrrod4i... and had given a written authority for 'that. purpose, Lord COCURANE rose to defend tilt petitions be knew persons in office bad frequently procured