The Sun. — London, England, 1806-07-17 00:00:00

sidered the result of the order, that.nci,tiednAionfor fees shotild be made upon the sun - ) originally granted. Lord FOLK,STONE.. said, that to, overlook such, a d;ifereace would be to. establish a precedent tend= iag to jOstify the Minister in 'exceeding the grant.of that House, in applying a sum of the public money, beyond that which Parliament or that House might authorize. The Noble Lord also noticed some in corretlneSs casting up theaccounts upon which . this Bill was founded. I`,ll*. VANSITTART referred the Noble Lotd to the Journals, in which he would find a similar difference to that of which hemOw complained, and that in the case of the illustrious Chatham, which difference was afterwards sanCtioned by the House of Com Mons. After a few other remarks from Lord FOLKSTONE and Mr. VANSITTART, the Resolutions were agreed to, and the Report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow. Ord'ered, - on the Motion of . Mr. ReaTILL, that the Accounts which were ordered on the 22d and 24th of and the 12th of May last, relative to India, should be laid before the House forthwith • • Mr. PAULL-observed, that the Papers, the ex 7 pence of printing which was yesterday moved for, were, he thought, inclUded in ,his Motion upon the same subjea.. However, be was glad that the Ho-; Lola:able General had, in his absence, taken occasion to supply the omission. Sir 4. WELLESLEY stated his reasons for the liZotibn referred to, to.be simply that the total ex . - p ! -nce of the printing silould be at once before the House. BARRACKS. Mr. ROBSONrose, pursuant to notice, to call the attehtion of the House to the Accounts on the Table with respe& to the expenditure of the Public Money in the Barrack Departitent. In times like the pro sent,' when the .national expenditure was no less than one million and a half weekly—when the na tional bUrthens were rapidly increasing, and likely to increase still farther—he did not think it necessary to make any apology to the House for attempting to occupy its attention upon the subje& of the fla grant abuses which he had no doubt of being able to skew existed in the Department to which his Metion would refer. ' It was now nearly two months since he had felt it, his duty to mention this subject in the House ; hut at that time he was by no nteans. sa well acquainted with the mal-pradices which preVailed these ten years back as he had since become... He was now fully satisfied that the state ment he before made was even below the fa t d. The,. House would recoiled, thA, when he brought the business forward, many Gentlemen seemed to doubt the corredne,ss of his information ; and that in consequence of such doubt he received a check that was calculated to discourage the prosecution of his object ; but no such cheek should ever avail to restrain him from the performance of his duty, or to damp his feelings in the pursuit of the public good. However, notwithstanding this check, it turned out inimediately afterwards that the reditude of his pursuit - was recognized even ,by those from whom the check proceeded;, for the Noble Lord (H. Petty), whom he now saw in his place, but a few. days afterwards brought forward precisely the same Motion which, when proposed by him, was re-, , jeded ; but at the time of that rejection he was fully Persuaded that the Noble Lord was not at all aware of the enormous abuses that were going on; and it was hitt justice to that Noble Lord to say, that he immediately afterwards applied himself to a diligent investigation of the subje6t ; and the result of that. investigation was, that the Noble Lard found the c - aie much worse than it had been described by hiM : in consequence of which discovery the Noble Lord took the course already alluded to, and did him the honour of copying his Motion'f. Now it turned out that the rent of the barns which he before referred to, and which were hired for the use of the soldiery in the Isle of Wight, were some time since reduced to one-half .of that for which they were originally let ; yet such was their value, that he could assure the House; that were a farther rechitlion of one half their present rent to take place, as it must, there would still be paid for,them even double more than they were worth. But he had to state that a great many more -buildings of a similar description, let on similar terms, had undergone no reduction whatev If the House would turn their attention to this r. .er, they would meet in every step of their inquiry circumstances equally calculated to-ex cite their suprise and indignation. Gentlemen would Istvily 'believe that the sum of 2001: a year had been paid for shells of ilarns in the Isle of Wight. In re terrinz, to this part he torlk mutely a.siogle speck of the - Barrack Accounts; for, in order to avoid con fusion, he did not mean at .present to extend his in vestigation to the whole of the Barrack A c c o u n t s , which were confessedly the most confused in Eu rope (4 laugh . ). Therefore he should confine hitn self, in.'illustration of the' cause of his Motion, to Sandown Bay Barracks, respecting which he was ossessed of the most satisfaCtory information. But ~yet the communications! he received were such as impressed hiM _with. the propriety of extending his Motion to all temporary . Barracks'; and it would appear astonishintto the Public that many of these li.: - racks, although hired, and paid for by the week, were often: actually unoccupied for_ a considerable Tart of the year. To expose such improvident con duEt, such scandalous waste of the public money, and to prevent its continuance, Was the object of the Mo tion which he should have the honour of submitting to the House. The Hon. Gentleman concluded With- _ " Thia there be laid' before this ilo — Use a Return of all' the Buildings of every description rented or hired by Government, .and used as Barracks or Places for lodging, or containing, Officers and Sol diers of the Army, or of person s a n d h orses attach ed to the Army ; and that the said Return do em brace every Building which has so been rented, or hired, and so used, in the whole.of Great Britain, l; is the Ist day of January, 1793, and the 24th ofJune, 1806: That the, said Returns be exhibited in fifteen columns, placed in the order, and containing the several heads, here following, viz : Ist, The date cat the year and of the month and day when, each building respeetively was taken ; 2 d, The County and, l'srish in which the building is situate ; 3d, The name or phrase describing the- building; 4th, The number of Otikers that are or have been generally quartered or lodged in the building - .; sth, The num ber- of Non-commisSioned Officers and men, and horses, that are or have been generally quartered or. loije,ed in the building ; 6th, The name of the pro pri:tor of the' building ; 7th, Tl.:e name and rank of the .Officor or person by' whc,m the. building was taken on the. part of Government ;, Bth, The. weekly rent - or hire of the' building ; bth,..The.yearly rent or '1 hire of the building ; loth,, The name and rank of the Offieer'or person, of- 9fficarsorpeasons;:through whole heed's the rent or hire has' ; been paid to the , proprietor - of the building ; 1 ith, The time when any alteration (if 'any.) in the rent; or hire of the building was made.; 2th, The Weekly rent or hire of the building, subsequent to such alteration ; 13th, The yearly rent or hire of the , building, subse quent to such alteration ; 14th, The time when the ,building was given up, if not now occupied by Go vernment ;- leth, The account of the whole of the amis which have been. expended in repairs upon the-building ; and that the said Return 3 do exhibit all the names and descriptions of the said buildings, following one another in due chronological order, the building first taken by Gdvernment standing first, and the building last taken standing last." Lord HENRY PETTY did not 'mean to ohje& to this Motion, the objea of which was to commu nicate information to the House. On a former oc casion he stated his opinion, that various abuses pre vailed in the Barrack Department, .and the only . question in his mind was, whether the House should take up the investigation of the subject, or leave it to those Commissioners to whom, for its own con venience, it had thought proper to delegate the power of -inquiring into subjects connected With the military expenditure ? A Report was expeeced from this Commission to-morrow ; and for himself he must say, tliic were he in the circumstances of the Honourable 'Mover, he should 'certainly wait the result of that Report before he brought for ward any Motion of this. nature. But yet, as the Honourable Gentleman was of opinion that no Re- aiort from the Commission alluded to could be at all calculated to remove his inducement for submittitig this Motion, he had no objection to second it, being anxious to furnish the .House with every informa tion that could be desired as to any branch of the Public Expenditure. • The SECRETARY at TPAR said, that as his Noble Friend bad thought proper to support this Motion, he should not obje&. to it. At the same time he Must observe, that he saw no Parliamen tary grounds for, it ; while the effect -of it would be to subje6tto great trouble an office which was al ready very much pressed by - busineSs. 'The Hon. Mover was of late in the habit of bringing for ward; from time to time, MotiOns of this descrip tion, without stating any specific objectthat he had in view. He did not state. that - he • meant to ground any proceeding upon such documents ; nor did he seem disposed. even to acknowledge that such documents,. ,when produced, did not bear out the censures which generally accompanied the introduca tion of his Motions. Such' was the case with re gard to the abuses complained of in the Isle of 1 'Wight ; for although the Papers on that subject had been some time before the 'House,, the Hon. Gentleman had indicated no intention of taking any • 1 further proceeding upon .them. It no doubt zip peered, froM those Papers, that considerable abuses had been. committed in the District . alluded to : Barns were .hired for the use of His Majesty's troops; originally at a very extravagant rate; but that was owing to the circumstances under which they - were taken. It was at the time when a de scent of the Enemy upon our Coast was generally apprehended ; and .sonie General Officers pointing out the spot referred to by the Hon. Mover, a place material to be nromprly ,ciiiisen for the lodg ment of troepa, th'e Officers were at' the mercy of the owners of those barns, who, of course, exaeled. their own terms. But .the earliest opportunity was taken for the reduaion of those terms. This re duetion was, he understood, asserted to occur in consequence of the suggestion of,a Barrack-master, fur hating dismissed whom he had fallen under the displeasure of some persons. But the feet was not so ' • tbr the reduction was recommended by Major Davis; and. on account of that recommen dation, took place previous to •the dismissal of the Officer referred to. There were, the Right Honourable Secretary observed, several insinna- Cons thrown out by the Honourable mover against respe&able Gentlemen ; and though such inSia nuations did .not appear to proceed frOm much deliberation, they might do mischief to the cha raaers of men who were not present to defend themselves. Such Condua upon the part of the Ho-. Plowable Gentlemattwas, he must say, by no means becoming. It was incumbent upon him, either with a view to justice Aar liberality, to learn both sides of the case before he attempted so publicly - to I implicate the reputaticin of men. Imputatioils of a serious nature should not be cast upon light or mere ex part , statements. But to return to the Barrack Master so much talked of (Atkins), it was said he was guilty of 'no mal-pradices—That, how.. ever, upon the communications made to him, he could venture to contradia—for the representation : upon which lee was induced to order his dismissal charged him with various peculations and exactions. 'lntake& upon the owners of, the Barns and Bar racks under his superintendance. Indeed ; he was Charged, or rather conviaed,' according to. the Re -- 1 port laid before' him,. Of the meanest' exaaionse such as taking poultry; pigs, :and such things, from thnSe people. This Report, the Right Honourable, Secretary observed, he received from the 'Bei- I rack Master General, whose diity it was to investi gate such. a case, and upon whose Report it was, he understood, the duty of the Secretary at War to a&, unless where a suspicion of partiality or injus tice-should induce' that . Secretary to order a farther hearing. But in this instance he felt no suspicion, nor did he ever hear of any thing in the condud of the present Barrack Master General that, would war rant such a suspicion. The Right Hon. Secretary repeated his question, as to what was the ulterior obje& of the 'Honourable Gentleman in proposing Motions of this nature. He rather thought that matters of this kind bad better been referred to the Commission'of Inquiry. Indeed, there Ns'',as one Paper moved for by the 1-lon. Gentlernat which was specially referred to that Com Mission, and which Commission was, of course, deemed, even by the party complaining, the fittest tribunal for the inves tigation of the case to which it referred. , Mr ROBSON vindicated his condua from the charge of , improperly introducing this business to the consideration of Parliament. It was absurd, , in his opinion, to wait for the decision of a CoMmis sign to_ which the Plight Hon. Secretary seethed so 41130 o'o to Conimis,sign 1y4c1,-in . the course of thirteen months, brought &marl only one Report, which might be - prepared in a w i -Jek. Five Officers were, referred to in these inquiries— .and the Barrack Department, according' to the evi- • deuce of Mr. 'Wady an, was alone- such that its Accounts_ could not be investigated in less than three years. Why then talk so, much of such a Commission, which' . must, according to the A& appointing them, Cease to exist in about ayear and a quarter ?—But the conduel of those Commis sioners was "such as, independently of the period of their existence, must destroy any hope of celerity . in their proceedings—For the fa& was, -that al though so liberally paid, they delegated all the trou ble to another- set of .Commissioners. • The Hon. Gentleman called the attention of the House - to a Clause in the Mt which forbid those Commis siOners from making any retrospe&ive inquiry, un legs « they thought proper;" and he mentioned a case where a man who was proceeding to tell them Of some former abuses, was stopped, and told that they did not mean to carry their inquiries beyond the present year. But, recolle&ing the discoveries made by the, Commissioners of Naval Inquiry, his great obje& was to go back, and to trace the abuses in the Military Department, higher' than those Commissioners were willing to go. His desire was to fish out the source of abuse; and, if possible, to remove it. Mr. JAMES MARTIN was glad to. see this bu sinesS taken up by his Hon. Friend. The public had too long submitted to be, pillaged, and,they had borne it more, than they ought—But, like the eel in the joke, it appeared as if they were so often skinned that they did not Ebel it. - Mr. PAULL dwelt upon the circumstances-con: necaed with the dismissal of Atkins, and stated that he was an Officer of distinguished merit, who was recommended to his late appointment by .Mr. Windham. But Atkins discovered abuses, and one of those men of the name of Ward, whose rent for a Barn was reduced from 2001.; to mi. a-year, made an affidavit against Atkins; which affidavit led to his dismissal. Atkins - was indeed always pro nounced. an .honest man until he exposed ti - auds, upon the public, and then he was discovered truly to be a dishonest man, and dismissed without any opportunity being allowed him of defending himself against the charges alledged against him. _ _ _ Mr. CANNINi:I. asked whether the fa& stated by the Hon. Member was the cause of the dismissal of Atkins ? The SECRETARY at WAR affswered in the nega tive, and referred the Right Hon. Gentleman to the affidavit on the Table, which would explain the cause to he as he had already stated it. Mr. WINDHAm said, that he only recommended Atkins because he found him distressed. Mr. BASTARD wiShed the pon. M6ver to extend his Inquiry to Permanent Barracks, in the ereEtion and repairs of which the grossest abuses were committed, - and which still were in general inca pable of affording any thing like. comfortable ac coMmo4atiQn, - The SECRETARY at War stated, that Atkins had had an opportunity of defending hiniself before the Barrack Master General. After a few words from Mr. Paull, Mr.l - lobhouse, and Mr. Bastard, the Motion was.agreed to. • A: Message from the Lords stated their Lord ships' assent to the BloomSburysquare Improvement Bill, the Insolvent' Pehtors"l3ill, the nabob of the 'Carnatic's. Debti Bill, the Irish Schools Bill, and Slave Trade Shipping Mr. 40BSONLlicrimt.sappose the Secretary at War cafable of dismissing the Barrack-Master al luded to, or any other man, without reasons- suf ficient in his owri mind to justify the aa. He had no disposition whatever of imputing any thing cul-. .pabie to the Right Honourable Secretary. The • Hon. Member proceeded to state the objea of -his Motion, which was to save the public money; and he was satisfied that he could suggest-a mode of pre venting the expenditure in this Department of no less than 500,0001.-a year. After a few other,prelimi nary observations, the Hon: Member - proposed the following Motion : That there be laid before the House a Return of the Canteens, or . Houses for vending beer and' liquors, Which' have - been set tap at the several build ings rented, or hired by ,Government, and used as ' Barracks, or places for lodging, or containing Of ficers and Soldiers of the Army, or of persons at tached to the Army: That the : said Return do in clUde every such Canteen in the whole of Greatl2lri tarn, existing between the of Januaty, 1793, and the 24th of June, 1,L306.1 That the- said Return be exhibited in eight columns, placed in the order, and containing the several heads, here following, viz. 1. The County; Parish, Place, or Station, in alpha betical order, in which the Canteen is 9r was si tuate. —2. The date of the .year; Month, and day of letting each Canteen respeEtively.-3. The name and rank of the person, or persons ; who' let the canteen.—=4th. The name of the person; or persons, who rent,•or rented, the Canteen.s. The weekly, or annual rent of'the Canteen. 6. The name and rank of the person, or persons,' through whose hands the rent. - haS been received on the part of Government.-7. The name, or' Phrase, descrip tive of the building so let as a . Canteen:=-8. The number of Non'-comrnissioned *Officers and men generally quartered or lodged in the Several buildings used as 'Barracks, to which such Canteen is, or has been, attached.". • • Mr. PAULL, wished to go into an expla, nation of what he stated upon the former Motion, but was prevented by the Speaker, who seconded the Motion. _ After some remarks from_ Mr; WINDHAM, Mr: ROSE, and• General FITZPATRICK', - Mr. ROBSON. in, reply, stated-that the ,Bar-1 racks at Sant;lown famed a. nest for smugglers, in Which beer and spirits were sold without payment of duty, and asserted that the rent for canteens, of which very little reache4 the Government, would pay the whole rent of thetertworary Barracks. - The Motion was agreed to. - - Mr. R.QBSON then rose and said ; that there was now no occasion forlum to say any thing to preface the MOtidn which he was now about to submit to the House. lie was, however, tempted to read Some extracAs from the Paper, which he he'd in his hand (the Memorial of Mr. John Pritchard), but they. , .vere so scandalous that he thought it might be as well to forbear. There was one, how :,ever, which was. &serving of the particular at mtion'sd- the go , Jse. Mrs. Parker, it appelred, a favoured friend of Major Lewis, took a house, :he property of Mr. Barton, of Newport, for a fa mily, from London, as she said, - at the rent of thirty pounds a-year. By the advice of Major Lewis, she let this, house as a mess-rooln, and lodgings for °dicers, at 701. a year, though it was of no use for one-third part of the time for which •it was taken. The owner remonstrated with her for the trick which she had played ;him, but she replied, that every body Was robbing Government, and she was resolYed to have a little in the scramble. The Mo tion which he was about to make was, for an Ac count of the manner. in which the Manure of the Cavalry Barracks was disposed of. - The money de riyed from this might pay the rent of the Barracks. He concluded by moving— " That there be laid" before this House an Ac count of all the money received, on - the part of Go. verntnent,.for dung, ash s, dust, straw, sweepings, or other things, being articles of manure, and arising frorn the several buildings rented or hired by Govern ment, and used as Barracks, or placcs for quartering or lodging of -Officers, Soldiers, or Horses of the Army :---That the said Account. do embrace all the sums on such-score received, in the whole of Great Britain, between the Ist of January, 1793, and the 24th of lune. -1806 :—And that the said Ac 'Count be exhibited in seven:columns, placed in the order,- and containing the several heads, here following, viz. -Ist, The parish, place, or station, in alphabetical - order; Yd, the date of the year, month and day when such article or .atticles were begun to be sold as aforesaid ; 3d,.The name or names of the persons to whom sold ; 4th, The sum or sums re ceived ; sth, The name or names of the persons through whose • hands the said sums have been re ceived on the part of the Public ; fith, The time when such sale ceased (if so) stating the cause of cessation 7th, The number of Non-commissioned Officers and Men; and the nunibcr of Horses generally quartered or lodged at each station respeaively." - This Motion was .reicaed. Mr. *IA Dad M said, • that if the Han. Gentle man' behind him, (Mr. PAULL) wished now to state the misrepresentation to which he alluded, he be lieved that, though not strictly regular, he might be allowed to do it. Mi. PAULL said, that he did not think it ne cessary to trouble the House any farther on the sub jeti at present. MacClowars Estate Bill was committel—lteport to-morrow. • MILITIA OFFICERS' PAY BILL. Air. WINDHAM moved the third, reading of the Militia Officerg Pay Bill. Mr.PERCIVAL observed, that the reason why he had given notice yesterday of his intention to take the sense of the House on the ad reading this day, was with. a view to have a fuller attendance. The material objeaion to the Bill,which he had before stated, was the lateness of the period at which it was brought for ward.. Considering-that the Militia had till now been. on the same . footing as to pay with the Army ; that most of the Militia Officers were now absent on other duties; that 'net one of those who remained had voted Nyith Ministers on this question, while' several voted against them • and that two Servants of - the Public, the one Paymaster of the Forces (Temple), and the other a person belonging to the Ordnance, both Officers of the Militia, had opposea, the Bill, he thought the House ought to pause be fore it assented' to - it. He was sorry-that he did not , see those persons- now present. But still.' be must give as touch opposition to this impolitic measure as he could. He bad already stated the ;ne),- pediency of bringing forward suclea Measure at this late period of the Session. The only argument which *as urged for departing from the established system Was the point of economy, which, in this'instance, was quite paltry, and setting the lateness cliche period out of the question, it was not such as to make it worth While, on this account, to tun the risk of givingdissatis4` . faCtion to the Militia Officers. But when we were at war, and in possession of, the services tf these men, it was impolitic to give them dissatisfaCtion ; and we had it from the Militia Officers themselves, that this increase would do so, not on. account, of being re fused the additional pay, but on account of the invi- • dious distinEtion made between them and the Line. He thought the objeCtion of an. Hem. Colonel (Bas tard) very strong, when he stated that injustice was done to the Militia; for when they entered they might, as the Law stood, take it for granted that they should alwayS be kept on a footing with the , line, and, might in justice now claim their discharge. When the prize-money was taken from the seamen; it was said that they had no right upon thi4 claim to their discharge, as theyhad been pressed. He did not think.that the engagements even with them should be violated on that account, but this however did not ap ply to, the present case. He then went on to state that he saw no reason why the 7d. a day given to the sol diers in the line who had served seven years, should not be extended to the Militia. At all events it ought to be extended to the Non-Commissioned Officers, - who were on the same footing as those of the Line. He also - objeded to the Bill because it gave Ministers the power of doing as they pleased on this subjed, either to give or withhold pay at their option ; and this - was the reason why an Ildn. Colonel had said that it 'put the Militia More hi the power of the . Crown. This measure totally altered the nature of the Militia System, and was a breach of ParliaMentary faith. The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed, indeed, to admit this to a certain degree. It was a breach of faith, but a little one. He was somewhat like the lady who owned that she bad had a natural child; but then it was a very little one. This measure ought at least to have been proposed in time of peace. He Concluded by moving that the word ," now" be left out, and that the words " this day three months" , be substituted. LoidFOLKSTONE, though he supposed it would be a material obje6tion ? to the Gentlemen on the other side,' that he .was not a Militia Officer, must still assert his opinion on the subject 'He maintained that there was nu reason whatever for any dissatisfac tion on the part of the Militia Officers, for they ,suf fered no injustice. The Field Officers and Captains were, by law, required to have certain qualifications, which rendered- this additional pay unnecessary.— Besides, they could not reasonably expe4.to be put exactly on a. footing. with Officers of the Line, who gained rank through ,toils and dangers, wh4e they inunediately attained their rank .ori account of their property.. The old mistaken ptitociple had heen.d4- parted from. already, and, besides, it. was a . quite different service. He would, therefore, support the Bill,