The Sun. — London, England, 1847-05-11 00:00:00

RAIL WAY COMMITTEES, HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) GROUP V. The Committee met at twelve ; Lord IL Vane in the chair. WINDSOR AND SOVTR-WESTERN (STAINES TO WINDSOR). The Committee were occupied ail the day with the clauses v.t this Bill. GROUP VI. -rjr.vrElL, YEOVIL, AND DORCHESTER. - - ------- - (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) AUSTIN then proceeded to open the case on behalf of the Great Western Railway. The Learned Counsel pro ceeded st considerable length and with great minutenes to enter into the early history of the Great Western and South 'estern Companies, and to found upon it an argument in favour of the Great Western Railway on the ground of egaity—the Bills having been granted to the Great Western Railway with a view of supplying the western districts of England with railway communication, and the object of Parliament in granting the London and Southampton Rail way, or the present South-Western Railway, was to give to that line the south-western districts, and that alone. The Learned Counsel had not concluded his address when the Coiamittee, at his request, adjournel till twelve o'clock =l•~srow. GROUP XV. EASTERN COUNTIES (CAZIER,IDGE TO BEDFORD, &c.) (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday. Mr. Headley, of Cambridge, Mr. Upton, of Bedford, and other witnesses were examined as to the great traffic which might be anticipated along the line, and the present want of .anoommodation for it. 'The Committee adjourned till twelve o'clock to-morrow. GROUP XVII. 2111IIMAND (LEICESTER AND SWANNING- TON WIDENING). (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday. The Bill thus became unopposed, and it was referred to Mr. Greene, with the other Bills above mentioned. The next Bill proceeded with was the sou . rEc zwExpi,AND (EXTENSION FROM NEAR. LEICESTER TO RITCHIN;. Mr. TALBOT said the line was promoted by the South Mid land Company, and that the Leicester and Bedford, which .had passed into the hands of the Midland Company, formed a portion of it. It would afford the eastern part of the county direct communication with the mineral and manu facturing districts of which Leicester formed the centre, and would, besides, traverse a district now suffering from the want of railway communication. It would be 108 miles in length, aad would cost 2,500,0001. Mr. BAXTER, on behalf of the Great Northern, opposed that part of tke preamble of the Bill which set forth that it was desirable that the line should be carried on from Hitchin to Hertford by means of a line called the Hertford and Hitchin, promoted by the Eastern Counties (thrown out this morning), , on the ground that such a proposal was entirely at variance with an agreement which had been entered into between Mr. Hudson, on the part of the South-Midland, and the directors of the Great Northern, to the effect that the line should terminate by a junction with the Great Northern at Hitchin. After considerable discus,ion, the preamble was amended as suggested by Mr. Baxter, and after some local evidence had been adduced in favour of the line, the Committee ad journed until to-morrow. The Committee cannot pass the preamble of the Bill, (and we may state that there is no reason to believe that they —ill not pass it,) until the Commissioners have made their report, which will take place in the course of a few days. GROUP XVIII. The Committee on this group met this morning at twelve o'clock ; the Earl of Lincoln in the chair, with Mr. G. Smythe, Captain Jones, Mr. M. J. O'Connell, and Sir W. .Tames. LONDON AND CHELTENHAM. Mr. Thomas Early, of the firm of John Early, large anaanufacturers at Witney, and who i s hi mse lf the London !partner of the concern, stated that their firm used to consume 110,000 tons of coal in a year, but, in consequence of the decline of the trade—it was in 1839, ten thousand tons— it was his impression that it would be better if they had an unbroken railway communication with the places from which it was drawn. There would also be a great advantage to the trade of Witney. If the Euston-square station were aciopted the Jocks in London would be much more useful. There would also be a further benefit from the reduction of the price of carriage, for by the North-Western line it is thirty per cent. less than by the Great Western line. Mr. Marryatt, a blanket manufacturer also at NN , itney, etated the general advantages that would be derived from the establishment of an uniform gauge. 11r. Clinch, who is a woolstapler, in partnership with his gather at Witney, testified to the benefit of the North 'W North 'Western line. The carriage of wool from the d oc ks in Lon don was 3s. 6d. a pack, while to the country there was a further charge of thirty shillings. Most of the short wool is used at Witnev, but the long wool is sent to Dewsbury, `Halifax, and HUddersfield, all of which would be transferred by the railway with the greatest facility. Witness . was a director of the - North-Western Company, and brother-in-law to the last witness. VT. J. Faulkner Milli said that large numbers of sheep - were annually sent out of the neighbourhood of Burford to the eastern counties. He estimated the sheep in the district about Burford at a sheep per acre. There were 64,000 acres, .and one-half of the sheep were annually sent away from the place, so that there were upwards of 31,000 sheep driven into the counties of Buckingham and Bedford, and these were only the worst and lightest sheep, for the finer sheep were - too heavy to travel far, so that the purchasers eastward of those counties could net obtain them at all. Mr. Hudson, a member of the council of the Royal Agri cultural Society, stated that he farmed upwards of 1,600 acres of land in Norfolk. They bred neither sheep nor catt l e , .but got most of their stock from the north and west, but preferred the Hereford beasts if there was not such a great difficulty in obtaining them. In 1844 he bought seventy beasts, and driving them the distance of two hundred miles xequired a period of seventeen days, with four attendants, the expense of whose service was 10/. 45., the k eep of the cattle 59/. 10s.; the turnpikes c, st y. .1 .-.^h- and the whole amount paid for them al e a s , gs. ds., wbieu ‘... ~ e},qt ~ . ., . .=,on between 2:3. fn ) s. ' 43ach animal. A gentleman of the name ot Thomas h a Turchased two hundred beasts, the loss on which was up wards of 2001. from the driving, whereas he expected to make a gain of 2001. To show the difference of the expense in having the cattle brought by railway, he bad a drove brought by railway by a special train, at a cost of 201. 10s.. and which was only two hours on the way. In order to get them by road it would have required three men at four shillings a day each. The turnpikes were - very heavy in that part of the country, so that one shilling and sixpence a score would have to be paid for the drove. The keep would be 81., and the whole cost would have been 191. Ba., which with the loss in the condi tion and other expenses would not have been less than 901. He himself did not breed more than about 300 beasts, but he fed from 2,500 to 3,000, and he might further add that lately he had received a large number of bullocks from Carlisle, a distance of about 340 miles, at an s:xpease of 20s. each, and they came to hand in a period of twenty-five hours, in as fine a condition as they left Carlisle. One of the greatest evils which was suffered by the break of gauge arose from the necessity of transferring sheep and cattle from the truck on one railway to the truck on the ether, especially sheep, and he believed that it would be ad visable rather to drive them twenty. five miles, that was two days' journey, at a considerable expense than endure that evil. Mr. lIILDYARD here made an application to the Committee for an authority to compel the attendance of Mr. Brown, an important witness, who had refused to attend without such com pu Ision. Mr. Williams, of Cheltenham, stated that the supply of col to Cheltenham was about 70,000 tons, of which about 39.00 1 1 were Forest of Dean coal, while the rest were, he believed, Derbyshire coal, all of which might be obtained by the North-Western Railway. Several other witties,en from Cheltenham deposed to the advantage which the railway would be to the town and its neighbourhood. Mr. Bishop, a butcher, at Tewkesbury, stated that he sent a great number of carcases of lambs and sheep to the several meat markets of London, upwards he believed of 500 a month, and was assured that the meat loAt from a halfpenny to a penny per pound on being transferred from the carriages Qf one gauge to the other. Mr. Woodlands, an extensive land and estate agent, and also a large farmer, also testified to the inconvenience which arose from the break of gauge to the great traffic which already passed, and which would be developed on the route daf the proposed line. The Committee then adjourned. GROUP XIX. This Committee met to-day for the first time in Room A, Sew Houses of Parliament. Members present, Mr. Dennis toun (chairman), Mr. Finch, Mr. Montague Gore, Mr. Forbes, and Mr. Mansell Talbot. The following are the Bill: referred to the consideration of the Committee:— Buckingham and Brackley Junction and Oxford and Bletch ley Junction Companies Amalgamation. Northampton and Banbury (Blisworth to Banbury). London and North-Western (Coventry and Nuneaton Branch). London and North-Western (Atherstone and Whiteacre Branch). Coventry, Nuneaton, and Birmingham and Leicester (Power to Purchase to the London and North-Western, eic.). Coventry, Banbury, and Oxford Junction. The list of Bills, with the petitions against them, was then read. From this it seemed that appearances had only been entered against the last Bill in the list, promoted by the Great Western Company. With regard to the others, the petitions had been withdrawn, and they stood as unopposed Bills. The Committee then adjourned till to-morrow, at twelve o'clock, when the Coventry, Banbury, and Oxford Junction will be taken. GROUP XX. The Select Committee appointed to consider the merits of the Bills comprised in this group re-assembled at the usual hour this morning; Mr. Goulburn in the chair. MIDLAND (CHELTENILAM, WARWICK, AND LEAMINGTON). Mr. l lAcaukiv opened the case for the promoters of this line. It was generally admitted that the line ought to be suede, and th e only question to be decided by the Committee was, who should make it. The line was intended to form a communication between Bristol and Gloucester and the coal districts of the midland counties. It would commence at Warwick, and Tewkesbury, passtbrough E ves h am, S trat f ord-upon-Avon, the latter town. join the exts ting Rugby cid Leamington at in T favour he wh of the shcole of theme.e day was occupied witrgeneral e v id ence o 'clo The ck to-morrow Committee adjourn e d at the usual hour till twelve Comm. GROUP Xxt. This Comm ir ittee met at the usual. hou r th• Room 22 ; S James Graham in the chair. la —or n'ngt tn. siLIZOPSHITtE =CIO 20 ILILIX.Ways al") CANAL (LEASE TO THE ZONDoir Ain) NorsTH-WESTERN). The Committee were occupied the whole of the day with : 4 -neral evidence in favour of this proposal. The Committee adjourned shortly before foar o'clock. GROUP XXIII. This Committee met at twelve o'clock; Mr. Mackinnon in in the chair. swAzeszA VALLEY. The Committee went through the remaining clauses of this Bill and then adjourned. GROUP XXV. MANCE Ir STElit, Burrozir, AND DIA.TLOCZ, AND MIDLANDS 3- UNCTION (DEVIA TIONS TIONS AND AMENDME NT). i (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) Evidence was then adduced on hob& of the promoters, Mr. Francis Barker was examined to show the superiority of the Parliamentary line over the deviation in accommo dating the traffic of the district. Mr. Locke, civil engineer, gave evidence on the engineering points of the Parliamentary line, and on the practicability and cheapness of its construction. The Committee then adjourned till twelve o'clo2.l: to morrow. GROUP XXVII. This Committee met this morning ; Mr. Cardwell, chairman. GREAT NORTHERN (EXTENSION TO VFXSBEACII). The Committee was occupied all day in hearing the cross and re-examinations of Mr. Fulton, C.E. The Committee adjourned at four o'clock. GROUP XXXIV. OLDHAM ALLIANCE. (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) At the:conclusion of the examination of Mr. Hawkshaw, the engineer to the line, The Committee adjourned till twelve o'clock to-morrow. GROUP XXXIX. This Committee met at the usual hour this morning; Lord Charles Wellesley in the chair. WEAR VALLEY, ItISIIOP AUCKLAND AND WEARDALE, WEARDALE EXTENSION, and WEAR and DER WENT RAILWAYS and SXILDON TUNNEL AIVIAZGANIATION. The Committee were occupied the whole of the day with the general evidence in favour of this amalgamation. The Committee adjourned at the usual hour. GROUP XLVII. This Committee met to-day at three o'clock, on the Edin burgh and Bathgate Junction (Deviation, &c.), but imme diately adjourned, the report of the Railway Commissioners, for which they have been waiting the last fortnight, not being ready. GROUP XLVIII. CALEDONIAN AND DITMEA.RTONSIIIRE JUNCTION. (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) Mr. VENABLES for the opposition, and on the part of Sir James Colquhoun, of Luss, and others, contended that the alteration made on the line of last year was not by any means an improvement, and that the three reasons urged by the promoters for this alteration were, in fact, no reasons at all. The first of these, that a saving of 10,0001. would be effected, he would show could not be the fact; the second, that the alteration would get rid of a dangerous curve, was a fallacy,inasmuch as no danger could be well supposed to accrue in a curve worked by horse-power, and the radius of which might be extended (with permission of the land • holders) beyond the limits of deviation. The third reason, and the most contemptible of the whole, was, that the united talent of tl,e eminent engineers employed by the Caledonian Company could Hot get over two miserable " burns" (Drum ork and Milling), which his Learned Friend had magnified into " two impetuous mountain torrents."—(Laughter.) The Learned Counsel then proceeded to contend that the pro posed line, traversing two of the principal streets in Helens burgh, Princes• street and Clyde-street, would occasion grea danger, not only to the inhabitants generally, but in a par•• Ocular manner would endanger the lives of the children at tending the schools of the chapel of ease dependent on the parish church of Stow. After meeting in detail the allega tions of the promoting counsel, and endeavouring to show by reference to the tables of estimate that the advantages in point of economy were not so great as the Caledonian Com- j pany had stated them, the Learned Gentleman proceeded to call Mr. Gale, C.E., Glasgow, who endeavoured to show that the works in the deviation line would prejudice the fencing ground in Helensburgh in a very great degree, and that it would generally deteriorate the property situated in the pubic streets. There would be increased danger from the steepness of the gradient. On cross-examination by Mr. A. M'NEILL, it was elicited that the witness had laid out many branch mineral lines, the greater proportion of which were distinguished for their steep gradients. Mr. Ronald Johnston, Mr. Joseph Gale, C.E., and Mr. William Spence, architect, were examined in corrobora• tion. They all thought that the line of the previous year was the more excellent one. The Committee here interrupted the evidence, and ordered the room to be cleared. On the re-admission of strangers, The CHAIRMAN announced that they found that portion of the Bill which prayed for a deviation line through the town of Helensburgh was not proved. Mr. Bateman, C. E., was then examined as to the Glasgow deviation. His evidence went to show that the construction of a tunnel under the canal would inevitably lead to a catastrophe at some time or other. The Scotttish Central had received the sanction of Parliament to pass under the canal near Falkirk. There the soil was a stiff gravel, and therefore well fitted for tunnelling operations, vet there the canal had filtered into the works, and they were obliged to use great precautions to prevent accidents. The Committee rose at four o'clock. GROUP L. This Committee met this morning at twelve; present, Mr. Bankes, chairman ; Mr. Carew, Sir B. Hall, Mr. Hindley, and Mr. Henley. PAISLEY, BAIZEHEAD, AND 11URLET. The CHAIRMAN said the agreement between the Canal Company and the Greenock Railway Company, and the Ayr Railway Company would better now be explained. It bad made a strong impression on the Committee, who hesitated to grant further powers to parties who had made a use of them very unfavourable for the public. Mr. WHATELIY explained that the agreement arose out of a ruinous competition between the canal and the railway, when passengers were carried a distance of seven miles for twopence. It was arranged, therefore, that the canal should not carry light goods or passengers. The fares had been little affected, for the rail carried passengers at seven-eighths of a penny per mile. But they were prepared to give up the agreement if the Greenock Company would aid them to compensate the canal, as the Chairman would recommend. The CHAIRMAN said the Committee had no power to en tertain the offer. Mr. Wilson, a large mineral l'enorietor and lessee, gave evidence in Ruonort of fl , terrea for the accommodation offered by it to the different works in the district. Mr. Pitcaird, factor to Lord Glasgow, agreed that the Hurlet line would much better suit the mineral fields than the other lines. It offered a direct communication to the port of Rea fern, which he thought the natural port of the district. Mr. Blythe, C.E., was asked a few questions bearing prin cipally on matters of a local nature. The CHAIRMAN announced that the majority of the Com mittee were in favour of the Hurlet scheme being granted. Mr. flttnrAnD, for the opponents, was heard very briefly. The CHAIRMAN then declared the preamble of the llurlet Railway proved for all except their Neilston and Barskiven branches. GLASGOW, PAISLEY, ICILMARNOCE, AND AYE, AND AYRSHIRE AND BRIDGE OF WEIR (No. III). Mr. flora was about to open the merits of this Bii when The Ctr.tramAN said he thought that schemes enough for that district had been sanctioned; and he recommended the promoters to consider whether, in the face of this, they ought to zo on. Sir B. HALL requested the Kilmarnock and Ayr Direct should understand that the same observations applied to them. The Committee then adjourned. RAILWAY SHARE MARKETS, LIVERPOOL, MAY 10. STOCK EXCHANGE.-The market is still very flat, and prices continue to cone down; even the heavy st •cks are declining, and the quotations are lower than we last reported. There has been very little business done to-day. The sales are- Birmingham and Oxford, 04 p.-Caledonian, Halves, .* 4 dis. -East Lancashire, New (scrip), par-Great Northern, 14 dis -Liverpool, Crosby, and Southport, 3y p.- London and North-Western, 170- Ditto, Fifths, 13 1 / 4 p.-Ditto, Quarters, New, 9% p.-Manchester and Leeds Fifths, 334p.-Ditto, 321. Shares (late Extensions), p.-Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire, Eighths, 465. 3d. dis.-Midland Stock, 11414-Ditto, 401. Shares 2% p.-Ditto, New, 1: 1 4 p.-Staf fordshire Union Railway and Canal, 174 dis.-York and North Midland (East and West Riding Extension), 10!•4 p. MANCHESTER he , MAY 10. STOCK EXCITANGE.-T sales are-Ambergate, Notting ham, and Boston, 1 5 dis.-Birkenhead, Lancashire, and Cheshire, dis.-Birmingha m and Oxford Junction, 7- Eastern Counties, 1831-East Lancashire, New, 1 1 , dis.- Ditto, New (scrip), 1-16 dis.-East Lincolnshire,ll,4 1 1 / c. p.- Fleetwood, Preston, and West Riding Junction, 7-16- Leeds, Dewsbury, and Manchester, par-London, Man chester, and Birmingham, 6 6!.x-Manchester and Leeds, 32/. Shares (late Extension), 1-16 p.-Ditto, Fifths (late West Riding Union), 1-16-:Manchester and Southampton, 30s. 6d. dis.-North Staffordshire, 1 7.16 n.- North-Wester n leg dis.-South-Eastern an d D over, N o. 4, dis. , LEEDS, MAY 10. STOCK EXCHANGE. -The sales are-Amber ate, Notting ham, and Boston, 275. dis.-East Lancashire, New, 335. 9d. dis.-Ditto, New (scrip), Is. dis.-East and West Yorkshire, dis.-Great Northern, IA dis. - Huddersfield and Man chester, Thirds, 2s. 6d. dis.-Leeds and Thirsk, 5 1 : 2 dis.- , Ditto, Preference, 3s. 6d. p.-Leeds, Wakefield, and Midland, 17s. 6d. dis.-London, Brighton, and South Coast, 51 1 - Ditto, Fifteenths, 2s. p.-Malton and Driffield Junction, 15s. dis.-Manchester and Leeds, 32/. Shares (late Extensions), 3s. p.--Ditto, West Riding Union, c. p.-Manchester, Bux ton, Matlock, and Midland, 7s. 6d dis.-Newcastle and Berwick, New, 1% p.-North British, Extension (scrip), 6s. 6d. p.-North Staffordshire, 31s. 3d. p.- North-Western, 395, clic-York and North Midland, Preference, 8 , 4, p. SHEFFIELD, MAY 10. STOCK EXCHANGE.-The sales are-Ambergate, Notting ham, and Boston, 1% dis.-East Lancashire, New (scrip), par-East Lincolnshire, 1% p.-Manchester and Lincoln Union, 11/2 dis.-Manchester and Leeds (West Riding Union), 2s. p.-Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire (Great Grimsby and Sheffield), 8/. dis. - North-Western, 2/. dis.-Leeds, Wakefield, and Midland, 1/. dis. EDINBURGH, MAY 8. STOCK EXCHANGE.-The sales are-Caledonian, New, 40 5.-Dundee and Northern Junction, 30s. 6d.-Dundee and Perth, Quarters, 515.-East Lothian Central, 413.-Edin burgh and Glasgow, Quarters, 178-Edinburgh and North ern, 17 4-Ditto, New, 635.-Ditto, Newport, 7-Ditto, ditto, New, 38s. 6 d.-Edinburgh and Perth,4os. Ditto,Halves, 123.-Great Northern, 515.-North British, 303-Ditto, Quarters, 83L.-Ditto, Thirds, 50s. _ GLASGOW, MAY 8. STOCK EXCHANGE.—The sales are—Caledonian, New, 38s. Dundee and Perth, Quarters, 50s. 6d.—Edinburgh and Perth ( New Co.), 41s. 3d.—Glasgow, Kilmarnock, and Ayr, 3514-- Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle, s %—Manchester and Southampton, 12s. 6d.—North British, Thirds, 50s.—Ditto, Quarters, 87s. 6d.—Ditto, New Quarters (scrip), 20s. SHEPHERD'S BANKRUPTCY.—These bankrupts had their first hearing on Thur?day. They were extensive wine merchants, bad been in business about twelve or fourteen years, and their failure excited a deal of surprise to those not intimately acquainted with their dealings. Debts to the amount of 1 2,000/. were proved, besides the bankers' claim of about 5, 000/., which stands over. They owe the Exeter Bank 8,700/ . and odd. The London creditors generally have not yet proved their debts. It was rumoured that the estate would sopoaflyaittajobirioeaus.ptpTltihehdreefecoorsohartit:lings in the pound. The bank :l7alt,ll:3sa4neTels.orfr.7R/. apleprhwseaenkdeforsr r t u he pt t s w ' rn THE t Anuy —L eu nan G. Proby 1 -. las ill been re- . was appointed trade . assi gne e-alb ;Stored to his commission in the 43d Foot.- lected that this officer absented himself Foots mwontbhesr:'clie Ifrom his corps for the purpose of visiting a sick brothermat B orne , and in consequence of which his commission was cancelled. The Commander-in -Chief has, however, taken a favourable view of the case, and Lieutena n t Proby has been permitted to return to his duty. It need scarcely be added, that punishment for absence without l eave is usually a heavY the one. ► IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT HOUSE OF LORDS, May 10. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack at Five o'clock. THREATENING LETTERS BILL. Lord DENMAN proposed the second reading of this Bill. In doing so, he said he conceived that his motion would not meet with the slightest objection, as it was to amend the present anomalous state of the law with respect to persons sending threaten ing letters for the purpose of extorting money. The existing law was so imperfect, that unless a letter of this nature was actually addressed to the person from whom money was sought to be extorted no offence was committed, and the object of the Bill was to render it equally criminal to send a letter with the view of extorting money from a person to that person's relations or friends. The Bill was then read a second time. THE TOWNSEND PEERAGE. The LORD CHANCELLOR presented a petition from a gentleman named Charles Townsend, "com monly called Lord Charles Townsend and Marquis of Townsend," praying for an alteration of the Act passed three years ago with respect to the Townsend Peerage. CORN. The Earl of HARDWICKE gave notice that he would ask her Majesty's Ministers two questions, first, whether they knew what quantity of wheat was in the country ; and, second, what Quantity they expected to be imported. RATING IN IRELAND. The Earl of ST. GERMANS presented a petition from the rate-payers in the County Down, praying that the rates should be as usually charged, one-half upon the landlord, and one-half upon the tenant. THE FACTORY BILL. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented several pe titions from various parts of the country in favour of the Factory Bill. PUBLIC-HOUSES IN SCOTLAND. The Duke of BUCCLEUCH presented a petition praying that their Lordships would take into considera tion some measure for licensing public-houses in Scotland. ARMY SERVICE BILL. On the motion of Lord STANLEY, the further read ing of this Bill was postponed till Fric:ay next. LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL. The report on this Bill was postponed till tomorrow. POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. On the order of the day for going into Committee upon this Bill being read, The Earl of WICKLOW rose to propose an amend ment to the 20th clause, of which he had given notice, but was interrupted by Lord STANLEY, who said that he wished to ask her Majesty's Government whether they intended to insert a clause in this Bill respecting electoral division. He would put it to the Government whether they did not think that by argreeing to the words " electoral divisions" after the word " union" they would render more effectual the working of this measure. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood to say that power already existed to alter the extent of the electoral divisions. Lord STANLEY complained that the Noble Marquis had not answered his question. He thought that the Commissioners should have the power to make those alterations, and not only that the Commissioners should have the power, but that the Executive should give the Commissioners authority to exercise it, and to reduce the area of unions of large electoral divisions. Lord BROUGHAM said, that under the law of settlement, power was given to divide parishes in such cases as those which were of great extent, and he thought that similar power ought to be conferred in the present Bill. After a few words from the Marquis of Lansdowne, Lord Clancarty, and Lord Redf,sdale, The Earl of WICKLOW said that ho was quite aware of the existence of the power to which the Noble Al arquis (the Marquis of Lansdowne) had referred. He wanted to impress upon their Lordships what ap peared to him to Le a grievous injustice, namely, throw ing upon certain rural districts the whole weight of the support of the pauper population of the towns. Ile considered that the pauper population of an union should be supported by the union at large. Un less this were the case, the expense which would be thrown upon the towns would be enormous ; in fact, property in towns would be destroyed altogether. After the opinion of their Lordships the other night he conceived that their Lordships would accede to the following amendment : "In clause 20 to insert, after the word repealed' in twelfth line, the words and that it shall be lawful for the said Commissioners, when they shall see fit, to form into separate electoral divisions towns with a population of three thousand, or upwards.'" He said 3,000, because he believed small towns of that size would be best accommodated by such an arrange ment. After a desultory conversation, in which Lord Mont eagle, Lord Campbell, and Lord Brougham took part, Earl GREY said, the clause which already existed in the Bill was word for word the same with the amend ment of the Noble Earl, as far as could be. After a few words from the Marquis of Clancarty, Earl Grey, and the Marquis of Lansdowne, Earl FITZWILLIAM. said, the amendment of the Noble Earl raised questions of a most important charac ter—how, ansi on what principle they were to form the new communities which they were about to form in Ire land? The Noble Earl (Grey) thought the Commis sioners had power enough, and the amendment had the effect of extending that power. Ile asked any Noble Lord whether he thought the Commissioners under the clause of the Bill would act in the way proposed by the Noble Earl? What he wished to know was why the re lief of the poor should fall upon the electoral 3ivision ”<3 not upon 02. t That was a question deserving attention. Another was, whether the town poor ought to be relieved by the country division also, or ought rather to be separated from the country. These were important questions. He said he would support the amendment of the Noble Earl. The Earl of CLANRICARDE said the whole question under the present amendment was the area of the elec toral rating, and all that was meant by the Noble Earl in his amendment was, not that he differed from the principle of the clause in the Bill, but that he wished to suggest some duties to the guardians or commissioners for acting upon. But many other suggestions as well as this might be made. He thought then it would be far better to leave the commisiouers in power as they were by the Bill. The amendment was then put to their Lordships, and was lost without a division. The Earl of WICKLOW then rose to propose ano ther amendment, of which he had given notice, but after a few words from the Marquis of Lansdowne, the Noble Earl withdrew his amendment. The clause was then agreed to. Clauses 22 and 23 were then agreed to. On the 24th clause being proposed, Lord MONTEAGLE said that if they attempted to remove the children from those workhouses, they would deprive them of all chances of education ; and, on the other hand, if they retained them, they would be bring ing up a pauper population which they could not turn to any account. He would suggest that those Poor-law Commissioners should have the power of effecting a union of unions, and that the education of industry should be superadded to that of intellectual education. Thus the children would be properly educated and pro perly taken care of. He merely wished to suggest the insertion of such a clause as the one he had prepared. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE admitted the im portance of the Noble Lord's recommendation, and inti mated that her Majesty's Government were favourable to the introduction of industrial as well as educational training into the schools. He would, however, take the suggestion into consideration. Clauses up to 30 having been agreed to, Lord STANLEY clause in rose the Bill to propose: —That, th the savese o r insertion aa sg r e o e m f the en following herein after provid e d, it s h a ll not b e lawful for any o ccup i er of rateable property h o ldi ng un d er any i to be made or entered into after the rassing of this Act, nor for any tenant at will, or from year to year, after the Ist day of January, 1849, to deduct from the rent to which he may be liable in respect of such property any amount whatever in respect o f any rate wh i ch may he imposed at any period subsequent to the date of such lease or agreement, or subsequent to such Ist day of Ja nuary, as the case may be. That all the provisions of the Act 6th and 7th Victoria, c. 92, intituled, " An Act for the further Amendment of an Act for the more effec tual Relief of the Destitute Pcor in Ireland," for the charge and recovery of rates upon property rated to a net annual value not exceeding 4/, shall be deemed and taken to apply to the like property rated to a net annual value value not exceeding 5/. ; provided nevertheless, and he it enacted, that no immediate lessor holding under any lease or agreement to be made or entered into after the passing of this Act, shall be authorised to de duct from any rent by him payable under such lease or agreement to his superior landlord, any amount whatever in respect of any rate which may be imposed at any pe riod subsequent to the date of such lease or agreement. He said the time had now arrived when it became his duty to submit for the adoption of their Lordships the amendment of which he had given notice. Re was quite sure that their Lordships, in proceeding with the discussion, and with the amendment, of this most im portant subject, would approach it without any reference on their part, or without any influence on their minds from the misapprehension and misrepresentation which had been industriously circulated, not only within the walls of that House, with regard to the object as well as the motive which had led him to propose the clause— that they would not consider whether the vote which he asked them to come to, should confer upon them a mo mentary popularity, or the reverse of popularity—that they would not either be influenced by those insinua tions which had been very liberally circulated with re gard to the probable political consequences of their Lordships' adoption of the motion which he had submitted fur their consideration and adoption. (Hear.) It had been stated that his was a landlord's amendment. Now, he denied that altogether—(Cheers) —nay more, he should be ashamed of himself if, connected as he was with property in Ireland, he submitted to their Lord ships' consideration a clause intended or calculated, ex clusively or even primarily, to benefit that class to which he himself belonged.—(Hear.) lie shculd be yet more ashamed of himself, if that advantage were to be pur chased by any corresponding advantage upon any other class of society ; but his firm conviction was, that so far from being a landlord's question, if it be anything it was especially a labourer's, and not a landlord's question.— (Loud cheers.) The object which he had in view was— and which he was sure all their Lordships had in view-- was how they could best conduct this perilous experi ment, upon which they were called upon to enter, upon which they had decided ; and notwithstanding all the objections, and all the difficulties, acaohnuodduukicatl alllt the dangers, h e th oug ht, u pon th e whole th ey h ad wisely decided to enter, but it was for their consideration, and it was important that they a c t ou e s x i p d e e r r ia i i t en, calmly as t lyand o dreelnidbeerrattheelyirhopoewrttyo of Ireland, best able to bear the burden, which was about to be thrown upon it ; and best able to bear this burden of the employment of those labourers whom they desired to rescue from a pressure upon the poor-rates. He was not then deterred by any of the considerations to which he bad referred, from submitting to their Lordships an amendment, which, in his conscience, he believed was nesessary for the safe working of this measure. He was not even deterred from submitting this amendment, by the rather unusual intimation con tained in that extraordinary message from the House of Commons, which was conveyed to their Lordships a few nights ago— (Cheers:and laughter) —by my Noble Friend the Noble Earl on the cross benches ; who, for the purpose of influencing your Lordships' deliberations and decisions upon this measure, thought it necessary to state to your Lordships that he was in a position to state from authority that Earl Lincoln had changed his mind upon the subject of an Irish poor-law.— (Cheers and laughter.) Undoubtedly, recent events had made it perhaps convenient that when there was any general change in the House of Commons cn masse, early inti mation should be given to your Lordships of such a change, but he (Lord Stanl e y) w i t h all the respect which he had for his Noble Friend on the cross benches, and it was most unfeigned, and the other Noble Lord to whom he referred, he hardly thought that such an intimation was likely to have an undue influence on your Lord ship's deliberations, when his Noble Friend on the cross benches, stated that he was authorised, on authority, to state for the information of your Lordships, that Lord Lincoln had changed his o pinions. —(Laughter.) He was also farther deterred from bringing forward this questicn, than by that which had much greater weight in his mind—namely, the expressed objection of my Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Brougham) whom he did not see in his place, and also from the objections of the Noble Marquis (Lans downe) on the opposite benches. He repeated that he was not even deterred by their objections, but he thought the objections of his Noble and Learned Friend had reference more particularly to what were fallaciously announced to be the objections to the measure. The Noble Marquis, in stating the ground of his objections, stated what he (Lord Stanley) considered a most dangerous principle to enunciate of which a public man could be guilty, namely—that they must legislate, not upon principles, but upon impressions. —(Hear.) This was a matter of too great consequence for them to consult impressions ; they must look to the effects—to consequences. They must see that their le gislation did not obtain momentary popularity, but that it would lead to placing the country out of hazard, and enable them to legislate safely for her defence ; and he felt convinced that, unless they adopted the principle of the amendment he had intrusted to them, they could not hope that this experiment could be conducted without the most dangerous and cruel results. He asked them to deal with Irish property as they would think it safe to deal with English property.—(Loud cheers.) The great body of them, perhaps, were unconnected with property in Ireland ; they were called upon to legislate with regard to that country, and he asked them, before they decided, to place their hands upon their hearts, and say whether they would dare to propose, or whether they could carry into effect a poor-law for England based upon the principles of this poor-law ?—(Renewed cheering)—and deprived of the safeguard which they had in England against abuse.—(Hear, hear.) Why, if' they could not, with what conscience, with what show of reason, with what hope of success, could they impose upon Ireland that which they knew they could not impose upon England ? At all events they must show him that this experiment was dangerous for England, and that it was safe for Ireland, before they rejected his proposition ; they must point out the circumstances which rendered it less injurious to Ireland than to England. On them rested the onus of proof, and not upon him. When they asked him to cramp the relief to the poor in Ireland, he asked them, on the other side, to show that that system of relief which was not safe for England, was safe for Ireland, and would be ac companied by a safeguard. They must explain the dif• ference. The measure which they were about to adopt would, by the confession of every man, press heavily upon the parishes, and their object was —and his main object was—to relieve too great a pressure upon the poor-rates; not by a straightened and niggardly parsimony, nut by withdrawing relief from those really destitute, not by pushing and grinding down relief to a minimum point in rural districts, but to supersede the necessity for pau perism, by furnishing the means for independent labour —(Loud cheers.) Now let him first recal to their Lordship's attention what was the principle which the Legislature imposed on the landlords and tenants with respect to the payment of the rates? As the law existed, the rate was in the first instance levied exclu sively on the tenant, but when he paid his rent to his landlord he deducted not one-half of the amount of the rate, but one-half of the poundage upon his rent, which was equal to one-half of the poundage charged upon the rateable value of the land. Such at this period is the practice. He had heard many Noble Lords say that this burden was, after all, equally distributed between the landlord and the tenant. It was no such thing.— , (Cries of " Hear, hear.") It w as notor i ous to every one of their fordships conversant with the state of Ireland, it was notorious that the rated value of land was invariably upon an average below the fair rent-value of the land. He believed.he should not much exaggerate when he stated, that in some cases a piece of land was rated at 201.; yet, without being overrated, it was worth 30/. ; still the tenant only paid rates for the 201., at which it was rated. A shilling rate was levied upon the tenant, and he paid one shilling upon each pound of his rate-201. ; but he was entitled to deduct Is. 2d. from his rent to defray the expense of the rate, and he deducted, not 205., but thirty sixpence., or 155., from his landlord, out of the 20s. h Jsy, this, heh th ad at i fol l i j r a th was of the rate was borne by the tenant, and three-fourths was borne by the landlord.—(Hear, hear.) He did think that this was exaggerated; it was rather below than above the mark. The occupying tenant paid one-third, and the landlord the remaining two-thirds.—(Hear, hear.) Now, the relations between landlord and tenant were far better understood here than in Ireland, and th e condition of the tenant was eminently expensive England to what it was in Ireland. Farmers, for in stance, were larger here than in Ireland. He should be content to rest the whole question on this ground. He asked those who considered the poor-law advantageous in England, what would be the condition, the social and moral condition of a parish, in which the farmer should have the power to levy rates, two-thirds of those rates having to be paid by the landlords?— (Loud cheers.) He did not ask them what they thought would be the effect upon the landed property—that was an important question ; but it was not the only one of great importance ; and he asked them what they thought would be the social condition of the labourer ?—(Hear.) l What would be their state—what would be the effect of the magnitude or diminution of pauperism in that i parish ? He asked them what i n d ucement t h ere would be to the farmer to employ additional hands and to make improvements upon his holdings if he had not the alter native, as in England, that unless he employed them he would have to pay for their support in the union, but that if he did not comply, then they must be supported by the parish, out of rates levied indirectly from his soil. Ile was certain that if in England 'they attempted to introouce such a measure, that it would lead infallibly to the destruction of the moral and social condition of that parish, to the destruction of inde pendent labour, to the increase not only of the rates, but of the number of paupers ; that it would absolutely anni hilate all exertions at the improvement of that parish, and it would be overwhelmed by a flood of universal pauperism. Was there a man among their Lord ships who would deny that that would be the probable result of such a measure in England? Was there a man among their Lordships prepared to follow up this legislation by assenting to a similar measure for England? And upon what ground did they refuse to do so? If they did not, the farmers in England might say, " This is what the farmers in Ireland have obtained why ought we not to be placed in a similar position?" They would say that if the landlords in Ireland were compelled to pay the rates that the landlords in England should do the same.—(Hear, hear.) Now, was that wise, was it politic, was it just, was it safe to create such an anomalous state of things between two countries? Lot them tell him upon what ground, upon what argument, they could resist the demand to grant them the same privilege which they were willing to allow to the Irish tenants ? Well, if none of their Lordships would deny the character of the state of things in England, let them tell what was the safeguard which they could rely upon in introducing such a system as this into Ireland. Was Ireland more wealthy ; were her means of permanent employment greater than those of England ; were the relations between landlord and tenant more confidential, more thrifty, and was she more capable of employing labour than encouraging pauperism ? But it was noto rious that the reverse of all this was the fact, If there was security in the relations between the land lords and tenants, and that that security existed in England, he saw no reason why the law with respect to the two countries should not be assimilated. He did not know whether he would not venture to trust such a power as that proposed by the Bill, to Scotch proprietors and Scotch tenants. Looking at the intelligence of the farmers, to the habits of the country, and to the extent of their farms—their knowledge of their respective duties—it could be carried into effect with more advantage; but he should be sorry to trust to the operation of such a measure in England. (Hear.) But he was certain of this that in Ireland it would be absolutely and entirely ruinous—(Hear)—and absolute ruin not only to the landlord, not to the landlord prima rily, but absolute and entire ruin to the whole property of the country, whilst the plan he proposed would create a body of independent labourers, and also a class of farmers. If there was a hope of effecting this object, and without this object there was no hope for the social regeneration of Ireland—if there was a hope of effecting this object it was by promoting the interest of the occu pier, by increasing the amount of labour on the land which he occupied. Rrally the principle enu merated by that Bill was so Utopian, not to say so monstrous, that he could not believe that it would be entertained by such an assembly as this. It it could n o t b e sa f e ly applied to England it was for them to show that it could be safely applied to Ire land. But he wan t e d to k now w h a t the circumstances were which rend ere d th e a d opt i on o f th e same principle to both countries dangerous. Perhaps he might be told that they could not trust the Irish landlords to make agreements with their tenants. That really was the only argument he had heard against the principle of his amendment. lie did not wish to take the burden from the shoulders of one body and to place it on the shoulders of another, but he sought to affirm in this Bill a principle which he believed would be of the greatest advantage to the people of Ireland. He asked them to interfere with no existing agreement —he asked them to violate no present law. He asked them to interfere with no existing contract or agreement between the landlord and tenant as it stood at that mo ment, but this he did ask them:—That whereas the principle is sound and just that the occupier, who alone had the means of giving employment, should be induced te give employment by a knowledge that a proper divi sion of the burden would fall upoa his own shoulders instead of another man's, he asked them to affirm that principle. He proposed in the amendment of which he had given notice that, from the Ist of January, 1850, tenants at will should become liable to the same condi tions as those who had at present permanent leases. If that principle were sound, the question then came as to its mode of application—and whether it was a safe one? He did not apply it at once—he applied it prospectively; he left it to the tenants at will and to the landlords for the next two years and a half to enter into this new ar rangement. He knew the popular feeling upon this subject. He knew the declamations that were made upon the hard-heartedness and griping hands of the Irish landlords. He knew the indiscriminating, sweep ing condemnation .which this country was so much disposed to cast upon Ireland and upon all things Irish. He knew how ready people were to say that they could not stop to pick the few grains of wheat from the bushel of chaff, and that they could not inquire into the exceptions in individual instances. He had beard that the landlords of Ireland were totally in different to anything except collecting, in the most ra pacious manner, every thing that they could screw from the hard earnings of their tenants ; but he also knew that they were proceeding to legislate for the purpose of laying upon the landlords those hardships which they charged them with inflicting. If such were the character of Irish landlords—if it were the fact that there were instances of such short-sighted capacity—if they thought that they could protect the tenant by this regulatisn from the griping spirit of landlords—if they thought that the same landlord, who had the power of exacting the uttermost farthing from the tenant, and screwing out of them every shilling and every penny that he could drag from him by any process whatever—did they believe that such a landlord would not protect himself against their legislation by such an increase of rent as would cover any possible amount of rate ? They said that the tenant had not got the money to pay the rate, and that they could not pay it. The fact was that the tenants did pay it—(Hear, hear)—it was by them it was now paid, and all that they had to do, was to produce a receipt for so much rate as part payment for so much rent; could they believe that if, as they said, there was this spirit on the part of the honest peasant to bid for land at whatever price it could be obtained—if there was such a determined spirit on the part of the landlord to exact the uttermost farthing —did they entertain the delusion, that by saying, that the landlord should pay the rate, they would relieve the tenant?—the landlord would exact the utmost rent, which the tenant would pay. so that there would be so much less rate collected. They might fancy that they relieved the tenant, but in the meantime they did away with the inducement to the tenant to employ labour. He would, perhaps, be met by the assertion, that the amendment would meet with an universal resistance unless it was altered. That was a confession which no Government would mike without being degraded—that was a confession which was fatal to all law, and he trusted that in that House it would not be brought ' forward as an argument.—(Hear, hear.) If it were believed, that the principle was one of sound legislation, they should be firm in the application of it, and the prospective application would enable all parties to arrange it between themselves; but he hoped that he should not undergo what he considered the de gradation of hearing, in that House, as an argument, that they would adopt a principle not sound in itself, and which would not answer in England, because there was a passive resistance which they dare not encounter. He was not aware that he need trespass further upon their Lordships' attention in advocating the amendment of which he had given, notice. He bad shortly put forth what he conceived to be its recommendation—its encou ragement of labour—and that which would be fatal to its rejection, namely, that in future it brought the in terest of the landlord and tenant to one dead level, and would remove that mass of pauperism which threatened the available resources of the country, and the only means of providing for which was the diminution of that tenacity with which the tenant in Ireland clung to the occupation of his wretched plot of land, and the esta blishment of an independent body of labourers, apart from the farmers. He did not think, unless his measure was adopted, they could prevent that which was acting as a continual flame in this country against Ireland—namely, the influx of a large body of labourers. So leng as the rate of wages was higher here than there, so long would that influx take place. He did not ask them to consider the measure with selfish eyes, for their sin would be visited on their own shoulders, and a retri butive infliction upon this country. Let them consider the question as judges deciding a question of life or death, and he asked no more for the Irish landlord and for the Irish labourer. It was such a measure, and such a measure only, that could be effectual for this country or for Ireland.---(Cheers.) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE (who during his speech was frequently quite inaudible) said that he would venture to state to their Lordships that of all the differences which they had had in the course of that ar gument on this important bill, the difference which the amendment of his Noble Friend had made was the most important. He said that not in reference to the particular consideration adverted to at the outset in the speech of the Noble Lord, on an observation made upon a previous occasion. He was far from thinking that the consideration arising out of the privileges of the two Houses of Parliament, ought to be disregarded. Yet, leaving that as a subject of a subsequent consider ation, he did wish to meet the Noble Lord fairly, and discuss this amendment upon its own merits, exclusive of any external consideration. The Noble Lord had stated that he had no hesitation in stating that the re jection of this clause would prove disastrous in its con sprp).-,,,,q to h.th countries ; yet, he as confidently stated, that it was its adoption which would be productive of these effects to Ireland ; and to the success of the measure, which he was justi fied in saying, was approved of by a grea t number of their Lordships. Those of their Lordships who were most opposed to the principle of this Bill, had allowed many of the objections to the clauses which were most objectionable to pass without dividing upon it, and even the Noble Lord himself said that he was one, and he was desirous of this Bill passing into a law. He begged their Lordships to consider what was the cha racter of this Bill, and that it required extensive ma chinery to be created, for the assistance of the board of guardians. The principles of the present Bill were en tirely consonant with the principle of a measure adopted by their Lordships five or six years ago, and which, during that time had been found to work well.—(Cheers.) The effect of this measure would be to throw the bur den of the rating entirely upon the tenant, instead of imposing it equally upon all classes. He asked the Noble Lord to reflect a little before he imposed burdens of this sort upon the tenants of the country. The Noble Lord had stated that they ought to allow them selves to be influenced by the impression which any measure was likely to produce. He thought that such a principle was not calculated to assist any Goverment in carrying out its measures,—for some regard for the impression that any measure was likely to produce, was a ssolutely indispensable —(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord bad stated, that the burden would be diss tributed equally by his measure, and which would remove much of the odium attached to the Bill, by the proceedings of the Government That odium did not attach itself to the measure in con sequence of any fault of the Government. They stated that they were about to impose a burden upon the coun try, and naturally it was not received with any degree of pleasure, and it only remained for the Government to protect the tenant against any undue exercise of power by the landlord. A new system of valuation of the land had been introduced into the country, and with that and other remedies he thought that sufficient good would be produced without adding to this measure—(which they admitted to be attended with some degree of uncertainty,) the further danger incurred by the motion of the Noble Lord. It was the desire of the Noble Lord, as he stated, to conciliate the people, and yet he attempted it by affording a further facility for the infliction of taxation of the people. lie had complained of the imperfection of the measure, but the imperfection of any law was no reason for departing from the good principle which it might contain, and trying measures which might aggravate the evil which the law was intended to remedy. It was upon these grounds, and from the conviction that the amendment would render the whole scheme of legi§lation useless, that ho asked their Lordships to refuse their assent to it. After a few words from Lord WALSINGHAM, Lord MONTEAGLE said that, feeling as strongly upon this subject as he did, he must be allowed to state why it was that he supported this amendment. He had formerly stated, with regard to this measure, that the public et large were frequently led astray by supposing that what worked well in one country must necessarily work well in another ; and therefore they argued that because the poor-law answered in England, it should equally apply in Ireland. Many of his statements would indeed be inapplicable, if the state of things in Ireland were analogous to those in England. The Government would find, however, that if they introduced the Eng lish poor-law without modifications. they were enacting the part of very unwise legislators.—(Hear.) Their Lordships should take it into consideration that in Eng land the poor-law rate had been recognised from time immemorial as binding upon all classes, but in Ireland the law was altogether new, and likely, therefore, to be viewed with distrust. There w as great difference in the imposition of a tax for the first time and the levying of a tax which had been long in existence, and long re cognised by the various classes who paid their portions of the same. Of all times, the present was the least adapted for the collection of a tax which, compared with the other taxes now levied in the country, was as the weight of a mountain compared with the weight of a mole-hill. Suppose that an alteration were to be made, from a system of out-door relief to one of indoor relief, or a change in the amount o f the taxation of th e country from 10s. in the pound to ls. in the pound, then there might be a probability of get ting the lesser amount collected, but when it was pro posed to raise the amount of taxation from Is. to 104. in the pound, it was ev id ent that t h e l arge r amounticooled. never be collect e d. H e was no t s anguine as to tie stt cess of the measure even with the clause as proposed by y the Nobl e Lord. He would much rather leave the ho responsibility of the measure inthteanyha,ndtnns eohletheGo able to vernment, so that they should not at turn round upon those Noble Lord clause, and as cribe its failure to that the tshewhoopesruaptptoonrteodf the p cl r a in u c se ip w le h o ic f h th th e ey cla h u a s d e it arose from the only difficulty ho felt in supp o i w n t a r s i) , d however, Ineagthaoonungdhtot one, his belief of the impossibility ced, r l t and of carrying out the veep.- sure before their Lordships. Earl of lIARDWICKE considered that the opera tion of the poor-law had, in England i been be the supposed for a momeilt, that if the poor's rates had been paid by the landlords alone, that this country would have ever risen to such a height of . prosperity, or been enabled as it then was to assist in ameliorating the mighty distress which overhung both this country and Ireland. The Noble Lord opposite had stated that the Government were anxious to give the landlords an interest in the working of the poor-law; but was it to be supposed that the landlords, who paid two thirds of the rates, should be considered as parties likely to assist in the beneficial operation of the mea-ore ; his only object would very naturally be to reduce the expenditure. He felt it his duty, therefore, to consent to the amendment of his Noble Friend ; and he thought that in doing so, he was acting with a due regard to the justice, the pros perity, aed the safety of the people of that country, Earl ST. GERMANS said the Noble Lord who had just sat down had advanced a line of argument in respect of the ex officio guardians founded upon an erroneous view of the English Poor law. But he could not avoid adverting to the attack which the Noble Earl had made when he remarked upon him, as the bearer of messages from the House of Commons. He might disclaim this at once and be done with it. He had not been the bearer of messages from the House of Commons, bat he did think proper to mention the opinion of a Noble Friend of his who had been lately cfficially connected with Ireland, and who had not habitually acted with a party ; he did think it well to - xention the opinion of that Noble Lord. But to advert to the argument of the Noble Earl—He had overstated the proportions of the rate levied, as he would find by reports which lay upon their Lordships' table. The rate levied by the Bill was by far the most equable, placing the grasping and the liberal landlord upon a level, for the tenant was entitled, out of every pound of rent which he paid, to half the rate which was levied upon him. The Noble Lord then reverted to the debates which occurred both before their Lordships and in the Commons when the original Irish poor-law was intro duced, and quoted at length from the opinions expressed by several Members of the Lower House on the 51. clause, all which, he said went to make it more stringent upon the landlord ; nay, more, a Cona mittee of which the Noble Lord (then Mr. Spring Rice) was Chairman, went so far as to recommend the imposi tion of the whole rate upon the landlords. He greatly doubted as to the policy of the amendment, believing that it would deprive the Bill e nti re ly o f an y c h ance of success. The Earl of MALMESBURY• said he would explain, as briefly as possible, why he would support the Noble Lord's amendment. He was a❑ English landlord, as some of their Lordships knew, without one acre of land in Ireland, and without any experience whatever of that country. He had, therefore, hitherto refrained from debates on Irish affairs ; but on this occasion a great principle was in question, and in that principle he was interested. It was a principle which the members of her Majesty's Government had adopted and affirmed in the English poor-law, which they bad produced, brought in, and passed. They affirmed then that the oc cupying tenant ought to pay the rates. The principle of the amendment was, therefore, no new principle, and if Ministers were opposed to it, he asked them why they did not abandon the poor-law existing in England, and enact a new law containing a new principle. But what would be the consequences, he said, of the present amendment ? On this head reference had been made to the disorders that had been stirred against the payment of tithes to the Protestant clergy. He, however, denied the analogy of the two cases ; they were entirely different, as the history of religion alone might evince to them, and one allusion had been made to legislating for the country as it was. There was a sense of that phrase in which he agreed ; but he could not advise, that to legislate for a country as it was instead of what it ought to be, was not the' way to improve and benefit that country. As long as they refused to assimilate the poor-law of England and Ireland, so long would discord continue ; they might be twins, but they never would be twin sisters. Earl WICKLOW had always maintained the princi• ple that the rates should be paid by the occupier and not by the tenant ; but although he supported such an amendment at the time the poor-law was passed, he considered that the present moment was most inexpe dient to introduce it. It would cause muck bitterness between landlord and tenant, and would materially pre vent the proper and desirable carrying out of the niea sure. These were sufficient reasons to induce him to vote against the clause. The Archbishop of DUBLIN rose amidst loud cries of " question" to address their Lordships. He should not support the amendment of the Noble Lord ; but at the same time he admitted that his principles were right and sound.—(Hear, hear.) Still he believed that the plan he proposed could not, in the present state of things in Ireland, be carried out. He was most desirous that the Bill should have a fair trial, and he was most anxious, therefore, not to throw difficulties in the way of its working. He thought, as be had said, that the clause proposed a healthy and a correct system of ratit , ; but still, in the present state of Ireland, he conceived that the rate must after all be paid by the landlords. But he feared that the poor tenants of Ireland were not either in a fit condition of purse or mind to be induced to believe if they paid the rates, that they would not be called upon to pay them again. He cited a case in which 1,6001. a year was saved by the guardians of a parish by the adoption of a better and more direct mode of paying the rates. Although he considered that the plan of the tenants paying the rate was the best, the wisest, and most judicious that could be adopted, he could not, in the present state of Ireland, consent to the insertion of such a clause into the Bill. Lord REDESDALE said he could hardly reconcile the extraordinary argument which had been brought against the proposition of his Noble Friend, because they were told that the principle was correct, but that from the state of Ireland it could not safely be carried our. No thing could be more safe or more simple than the pay ment of the rate by tho tenants. Why, if a tenant had had a lease granted to him in which, for instance 3s. 6d. in the pound vv.. deducted eu account of the rates which he would have to pay, where was the hardship that would be imposed upon him, and where was the ex traordinary advantage which the landlords obtain— Much had bern said, and, in fact, many Noble Lords had argued the measure as if that was the sole ground of the measure, namely, the immigration of poor from Ire land to Liverpool ; but if they wanted to keep them in Ireland they must afford them some encouragement by providing them the means of lucrative employment and by making it to the interest of the landlords to afford them the employment they stood so much in med of.. Much might be done in this respect by leaving the onus of the rates on the landlord and charging him a smeller rent. lie would thus be spurred to use exertions to im prove his soil and to realise greater profits. In Scotland the rates were paid by the tenants, and the greatest ad vantage was derived from the plan there adopted. Lord ROSEBERY explained the nature of the past and present poor-law of Scotland. Lord CLANCARTY said that. although he entirely concurred in the clause proposed by the Noble Lord, and was convinced that they were indispensably neces sary, he yet noticed that as the House had not yet gone the length of stating, that they would confide a discre tionary power to the boards of guardians, or that the first clause should be carried into effect—that no assist ance on either sidewould be expected from him. Heshould leave the matter to the House unaided by any vote of his The measure was in the details inconsistent, as those clauses which referred to the system of relief to be given were temporary, while the provisions for rating were of a permanent character. The existence of these two provisions in one measure was an inconsistency which he could net feel himself justified in supporting. He felt ;much reluctance in withholding his vote, but still upon the present occasion he felt it to be his duty to do so. Lord STANLEY said that there had been, no doubt, in that discussion much which had given him the deepest pain and anxiety. There was not one of their Lord ships who in the course of that discussion had an nounced their determination to vote against his amend ment, who had questioned the soundness of the principle upon which it was founded. The kind ness with which their Lordships had listened to him that evening would be a strong inducement to him not to trespass upon their attention fcr any length of time, yet he must still bring a few points under the attention of their Lordships. It had been stated that the Irish Poor-law had for the last five or six years worked well, but what was the Irish Poor-law?—(llear, hear.) It had been during that time strictly confined to relief within the workhouse and to the destitute poor. His argument was that it was the occupier of land in Ireland who had the power of employing labour, and as it was by the employment of the poor that the poor-rate could be kept down, some inducement must be given to them to reduce it as much as possible. He would sub mit that point to their Lordships, and also that of the principle of out-door relief, for in the course of the de bate those arguments had remained untouched. He felt most deeply that they were about to adopt for a permanent legislation a mischievous and a dangerous principle, and wh e n th e y l a id d own t hi s l aw for Irela nd nd they gave it a mischi evous p r i nc ipl e f or its g uidance oo a, operation. R e f erence h a d b een ma d e to t h e p r-l a of Scotland, w h ere t h ere cou ld b e no cornpar::on; and out-door relief was not known to the Scotch law, a greem • t they en the landlord and tenant might make any the pleased with reference to which of them should pay the law rate charged, while it was a serioustted that he should be to do so in Ireland. compelled to differ fromisi: deeply lamented the mrcanignyroertel.f those with whom he had ever acted, and be yet ha a d . obreietyn uosfedtohneitrhits Lordships' language and tone which principle which he wished He regretted that the Whatever might bo the fate House were opposedfo tllivehate to introduce in the Bill, of this question, he couldnr owould assure ;re t v h e e n i t r hi n o t r f d r s o h m i ps doingthat his duty. o personal e trusted consideration th a t those who had done hi m t h e h onou r to support him on this question, and whos e sen timents co i nc ided with his own, would not think th a t h e ex ercised an unwise discretion in not giving their Lord ships the trouble of an unnecessary divisio n . He should, howeve r, feel it his duty, for form's sake, and for that only, to move this amendment on bringing up the report on the Bill. He would do this in his own justification, and in order that it might appear upon the journals of the House that this amendment had been ma d e. The Archbishop of DUBLIN explained. The Marquis of CLANRICAUDE denied that the principle contended for by the Noble Lord opposite was acceded to by the advocates of this measure ; and he would have taken an earlier opportunity of proving this, did he not see that the Noble Lord appeared to have overlooked that a large majority of that House Was op posed to the principles which he wished to lay d own , Lord MONTEAGLE moved that the Bill be reported on in its present shape. Lord CAMPBELL said, that in all his experience he had never heard or seen a motion like that just moved by the Noble Lord ; and he was convinced that neither in the Irish nor in the English Parlia men t could they find a precedent for it.lt - g' therule that a Bill should b e reported in the state in which it was to be passed i n a l aw. . Yet he found that in the first four clauses of this Bill two were limited in duration, and two were left so far unfinished that they were with out limitation, reminding him very forcibly of Sir Walter Scott's Melrose by nwoulini t. Buttress and buttress alternately seemed framed .ebon and ivory. There appeared to be a strange misunderstanding this measure, and the Noble Lord opposite, for while one PM' posed to limit the operation of the measure to the Ist January, 1849, the other proposed that it should be limited to WO. Lord MONTEAGLE then moved, that the operation of the clauses authorising out-door relief to the able bodied poor should be limited (as we understood) to the first of January 1849. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then proposed tbat the clause limiting the operation o f the Act should bi! o inserted in the Bill for the informa tion of the House; le at the time of bringing up the report the GovertunellS would feel themselves at p er fect liberty to adopt a n course which they might think proper with res p ect that subject. The Earl of WICKLOW complained that the Noble Lord had adopted the amendment which he bad pre posed to move, and he hardly knew what course he witi now to adopt. He thought the only cours e for him to pursue, would be to bring forward his amendment, whet" the amendment of his Noble Fri, nd had been disposed After a few words from Earl FITZWILLIAM, and Sol Gar, The Archbishop of DUBLIN said that he thought the object of the amendments of the Noble Lord WA 9 t ° make one portion of the Bill of a temporary, and the other, of a permanent character ; he had a lways e' t " ressed opinions tn.favourable to a system of outdo or relief to the able-b , xlied poor, a nd it vial because he entertained these unfavourable opinions, that be pr o " posed that that portion of the Bill authorising out-dor relief to the able- bodied poor would be of a temporapre character ; while the other principle involved to the Bill, not being of a new character, and involving no Derr principle, should be considered as permanent. Thy Marquis of WESTMEATH thought it nothing more than fair that the s stem Of out-door relief for the able-bodied poor should y be allowed a trial befor e She measure AftAfterer aw somesa short orarta(diei desultorys di scussion, p ss e i r o ni n a , c n t o h e n n e v t e C r o l sanalletieo na:as agree d t ° ' sumed, and the report was b brought oP ° ordered to e Friday next. Their Lordships then adjourned, at a quarter past eleven o'clock. the House ; HOUSE OF COMMONS. NO W ' y The SPEAKER took the Chair h A e ir fan t 3 ° bet o'clock. GREAT NORTHERN I:bA°rlLtiVirY Mr. GISBORNE moved, pursuant to n otice, at it an e instruction to the Committee on the Gre_tt Grant ham) Railway (Deviations between London suu t ,„ r gate, Nomtdßill, to entertain the petition of the -Asn' - ii f isy ingham, Boston, and Eastern Junction ita Company, under their common seal. Sir Wo s• After some observations from Mr. Estco d or t gr ' Strutto n Heathcote, Mr. Greene, Mr. A lio b and the motion was withdrawn. g TONT> SOUTH-EASTERN RAILWAY (NOlti..- 0 , o f the Mr. 0. STANLEY moved the third retto'no South-Eastern Railway (North Kent line) General FOX moved, pursuant to notice, to n „ ie nt r b'ng 11th clause as follows :—And be it enacted, tha l-- i re• contained in this Act, or in the Acts herein cited owritir fcrred to, shall extend to authorise the compa n y t r's out the consent of the principal officers of her goillsi Ordnance, or their successors, signified iU rl ,i Bill. , the under the hand of the secretary of the said PL i- sa id officers for the time being] to carry the •ons intended line of railway nearer to the f°r tificsitl ths of Chatham than a line six hundred yards iron' T h i o b counterscarp of Prince Edward's Bastion, on" yel line shall be marked out and submitted for the aPPr ° of the Master-General of her Majesty's Ordnan ce e l eliste the Inspector-General of Fortifications , „ ds& after the passing of this Act, and that the said be constructed to the satisfaction of the said oln s tor General of her Majesty's Ordnance and the InsP e e c the General of Fortifications, at the cost and charges said company. d w as After a few observations the claus e as a men -e k i r d agreed to, and added to the Bill, which was read a ", time and passed. OD 1° SOUTH-EASTERN RAILWAY (S TRO MAIDSTONE). This Bill was read a third time a nd passed, on the motion of Mr. 0. STANLEY. NTT .0 9 SOUTH-EASTERN RAILWAY (MID ICE— DIRECT lUNBRIDGE) . o f this Mr. 0. STANLEY moved the third reading Bill. the clause H grantingOD five years fo u r r pursuant t comp to n u o i s t i o c r e; Mr. R. par'n chase of land be atered to three years. wits - After some short discussion the mo tion Yin: drawn, and the Bill read a third time and passe"' REPORTS. ht The reports on the followine. Bill s were hr °llg up and agreed to:— Belfast Port and Harbour. A Coat' Caledonian Railway (Glasgow , Garnkirk, °- bridge Railway Branch to Glasgo w and Siatiou> Cork arid Bandon Railway. Cork, Blackrock, and Passage It ailivay- Dublin Consumers Gas. s Eastern Union and Ipswich and Bury St. E dmo nd Railways Amalgamation. Edinburgh Markets and Customs. General Terminus and Glasgow ranches. Great Western Railway (Branch to j oin the West Lo es! n' don Railway, Widening and _Enlargement of 504 W London Railway, and Branches to Liarotnersn3th, to join the London and South-Western Bailivay p ear Lambeth). Flatboat Railway Glasgow, Barrhead, and Neilston Direct, and GIUST I'. Southern Terminal Railways Amalgamation. Ipswich and Bury St. Edmund's Railway (No. 1- -- S v tension to Yarmouth). Leith Harbour and Dock Dues. Lynn and Ely Railway (Deviation and Lynn Docks) . Runcorn Gas. Ryde Improvement. Sheffield Markets. Southampton and Dorchester Railway (Virearniouth Branch). Waterford, Wexford, Wicklow, and Dublin Railway (No. 1). a nd Coltness Railw a y Wilsontown, Morningsi de, (Branches to Benhar Coal-works and Edinburgh - and Glasgow Turnpike-road). SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time, and or. dered to be committed: — Limerick Docks and Harbour. New Zealand Company. CjNSIDERATION OF REPORTS. The reports on the following Bills were further oon• sidered and agreed to:— Binglev as. BritisliCoGmmercial Insurance Company (No. 2. (Sale Eastern Union and Hadleigh Junction ( j 0. to the Eastern Union Railway Company). Ewell Rates. Kingston-upon-Thames Small Tenement. ol verb m pton Rates. EXTENSION ROYSTON AND CAMBRIDGE RAIL WAY. Mr. GOULBURN moved that it be an instructio n t the Committee on the Royston and Cambridge EXte i r sion Railway Bill, to entertain the petition of the 0 ' 1 ; versity of Cambridge against the said Bill. He said th • at petition had beer rejected because it did not co ntaln its commencement the short title of the Bill. Mr. BERNAL objected to the use of the word " en- Mr. and suggested that the Committee should '- simply required to consider the petition. Sir W. IIEATHCO rE opposed the motion, and O il ; sidered the Hou se oug ht not to a l ter a rule, comPli an with which w as excee di ng l y easy, as its wording vv-° simpl xplicit. Mr. BROTHERTON said, during the presents essio°rtit many petition s h a d come b e f ore hi m , in which the hod, title of the Bills to which they referred were erpicityed and in order that the expense and injury might b 1 5.- 6 O f to the parties, he had himself written the short tit e t‘.s the Bills at the head of them. As this occurred thr°,:id the laxity of Parliamentary agents, and as their le bo down by the House should not be departed , should oppose the motion. Mr. GOULBURN withdrew his motion. DISTILLATION FROM GRAIN. ~_O lO Mr. BROTHERTON presented several pe titions 1 1 10 various parts of this country against di4tillation fro grain. HEALTH OF TOWNS. Viscount EBRINGTON presented several petitions in favour of the Health of Towns Bill. POOR-LAW (IRELAND). Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented a petition from Kilkenny, against any increase in the number of e officio guardians under the proposed new Irish Poor-lalf• AIEDICAL REGISTRATION BILL. Mr. AGLIONBY presented a petition, signed by 0 number of medical practitioners, in favour of the Medical Registration Bill. HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL. Mr. BARCLAY presented petitions from Bristol' signed by upwards of 3,000 persons, in favour of ail ° measure; also a petition signed by 72 medical practi tioners of Bristol to the same effect; and a petiti° ll signed by the Rev. the Dean of Bristol, and 52 o ther clergymen, to the same effect. NAVIGATION-LAWS. Mr. LIDDELL presented a petition, signed by 03(1 merchants and other persons interested in the trade navigation u of South Shields, against any alteration in the navigation- laws. Lord SANDON presented a petition , HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL. , ous public bodies at Liverpool, the whole body of me dical men, and a large number of the working classes, the parish authorities, and others, in favour of the Health of Towns Bill. signed by v Mr. MUTT also presented a petition from Gateshead to the same effect. MONETARY SYSTEM. • de e Mr. FORBES presented a petition numerously 00 fro m Sti r li ng , p ra yi ng th e House to adopt some ineasuro calculated to give assistance to the Ban k under I present pressure. HEALTH OF TOWNS. Mr. UME d apetition in favour of this _ ; also p o ne inresente p favour of the Medical Practitionero THE PETITION OF GEORGE DREW. n Sir FREDERIC THESIGER moved that the pe w" tit ° , n of George Drew (presented 7 t h Ma y ), be printed the votes.—Agreed to. DISCOUNT ON LOANS. B rut The CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUERrn° the order of the day that th e House g o into Corareitte on the Loan, Discount, and Instalment 8111. PRICE OF GRAIN, AND LIMITATION IN DISTILLERIES. Mr. H. BAILLIE wished to ask a question of the t Noble Lord opposite (Lord J. R ussell). He found . j .. tka .nice the period be had put a qu estion to the tO" c bad e rnment .on this subject, the price o f btu • k;:• er cot tot of brim ( VA l'estri [4-A" Cntuj i dinar more o l .'r'. beard their at a .1 it that ( se w; ' l ,i - -.... , Mr to als o Gore, none: Share b atUn Iltunb Warm adyn n ;Itw a , of E, reali % l ent] to le, 0 1 • 114 d, f . z o crk, I ° o lte, 1 1P0414 fitc ep the El; Ch equi dent mile of. tea t of " rotat e , L iv. ore wa mi or • Csau r , tharte sun fi cosset Stiarti -Last M Whet th e / Lio n th at kind , th e that but ()cm, Wbie the t tine( ( b be z c tho u 11 4 iz t THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 11, 1847 A •