The Sun. — London, England, 1806-05-31 00:00:00

of discipline, nor,more. respeatible in amount.' The Cavalry and Infantry; including 14 or 15 thou sand men for limited .service, • amounted 'to 150,000 men: The number wanted on , the 26th-.of June, 1805, to complete them to their fun establishment, was 44,846. But as-the establi i shinent varies often,and many men had been added by the Additional Force Bill;he thought. that the number now wanted could not be above 30,000 to complete the establishment of the Regular Army. There must of necessity be a large floatingdeficiency in an army of such an amount. The casualties on an average of the years 1803-4-5, were 17,000 on the whole military force, which after de 'du&ing for casualties in the Militia and local Corps, left-for the Regular Array casualties to the amount of 13;000, or i-12th of the. whole. Any measure brought forward ought to be such as to provide for the existing deficiency and casualties ; and could the Right Hon. Gentleman suppose his • measure would raise 33,000 within the year ? .;Since the Revolution the Arrny had been recruited as it is nbw, by enlist ing for Unlimited tithe and space, except in the two instances he had alluded to, and that was' the true principle neon which the Army ought to be kept up. The attempt now proposed bad been made in - 1713, the year.before the atkeiSion.of the House ofHano vet', by the introdu&ion of a cpuse ins the Mutiny Bill, giving the soldiers of the existing army, and those who sheuld enlist, the right to demand their discharge after three' years service,- upon giving three months notice to the Colonel in the former case. This sys. tern lasted tlien but two years - ; for when the Whigs were In power, after the 'accession of the souse of HanoVer, de e ) , left the Clause out of the Bill, which was a, strong proof of the notion our ancestors had of fat ciftil - theories. He should not. impute to the Right Honourable dt_ntleman any disorganizing views ; brit Certainly, if Lord - Bolingbroke, as had been said, and he believed, had any design of de feating the succession of the, HoUse of Hanover, he could not have taken • a mere effedual step. for that purnose than to disorganize the .'Army :- that had fought under King-William and the Duke - of Marl bcirough. The - satire system had been introduced in 1775, and continued to the end of that war: . The - men' were' raised "'for three years,- or' dining the Rebellion. In 1779; the recruiting, 'which-. had till then been -carried on under the authority of the-King's prerogative, was sau&ioned, by the in-_ troducaion of a clause 'similar to the present into the Mutiny Bill. What theeffeet had been; he should Shew from comparison of three, different periods.— The first period he should consider - was_ the- three first years of the present war-a - nd that be should consider in three distiriot views : Ist, 'the effeCt of the ordinary recruiting; 2d, the effe& of the ordi-. nary 'recruiting combined with the numberS that. bad volunteered froni limitedserviee; and.3dly, the whole number of men that had been .raised for li mited and unlimited service, The first View gave an average of 12;780 per annum; the second, an aver age of 19,310;' and the third of 28,470 per annum. He took this occasion to deny,- that the measures. taken to raise thesemen had cut up the regular re cruiting. He admired the wit of the Right Hon. Gentleman, but the subjeCt under diScnssion Was no. joke; and when the House ought to• look to • that. Gentleman, 'as Secretary of State,, both. for informa tion- and argument, they had to expeet something besides lively ,and witty. flashes of imagination. The 'tight Hon. Gentleman ought, according to the hum ble saying, to be-" witty and wise." The next pe riod -he should consider was the three first years of last war, when His Majesty's Ministers had a&ed upon a much wiser system than Lord North, by rais ing the men in the usual way. The average (Winer] raised . per annum by the regular recruiting was 25,955. In the three first years'of the American war, when the whole number raised were for limited service, the average ef the three first years was 11,631 Men per ann. - -By these statements it appeared, that the greatest number-of tnen had been raised in the. three first years of 'this war, when the regular re cruiting had been bacle.' by subsidiary measures; that the piOlvice next in amount had been obtained when the recruiting had been made wholly for unlimited service; 'and that the smallest number had been ob tained when, in the first years of the Amei - :can war, the limited service was exclusively resorted to; in somuch, that 50,000 more men had, been raised in the - three first year of the present war than in the correspondent period of the American war. He had great respeCt. Ibtethe talents of Right Hon. Gen- - tleman, but unless he could. state' some fa&s in sup port of his Plan, he could not accede to it: In-point of effeCtive men, those raised daring the present war, . were in general better men than those obtained last War, and in all cases than those in the American war. If the Right Hen, Gentleman's argument was. worth 'any' thing—if he meant any thing in his 'statement, he must have. meant that his system would be sufficient to keep up the army to its esta blishment, and to supply the ordinary casualties,; but the Right Honourable Gentleman ought - also: to look to the extraordinary casualties that might , take place in, an event, which, he hoped, would not happen, of the EneMy being to be met -here or in - Ireland, by the loss that would he the conse quence • of a great battle lOst, or of a great and bloody viEtca'y gained. That should be in the contetn plation of His Majesty'.s Ministers. If the measure which:they now brought , forward. bad failed in the American War, why, in the name of God,.were they then called upon to 'sandien it ? The Hon. Gentleman . had stated 'some of the inconveniencies of the measure, , many of which he could not get over. But what had been the state of the Army in the American War ? He proposqd to, consider that question in three yieS---first, the state Of the Army in North Americle and the West Indies; in 1779 ;-2dly, the casualties thereon in the years 1778, 1779, and 1780; and, idly, ,the arnouut`of all the Troops that had been sent out to sup ply that Army. The' Army in 1779, was an establishment of 25,299, in AMerica and the West Indies, wanting 11,24 . 9 to complete it, being nearly one-third. The casualties, including desertion, &c.' amounted on an aVerage to 17,855 ; and with all the - eflbrts that could , have been made with the system in full' aetivity, the • number of Troops sent out, including thirteen new Regiments, did nut exceed 19,161., leaving a balance, after dedualing, the-caSualties, of 1296, being only as .a supply for an Army that was fighting for the - brightest jewel of the British Crown, and for the dearestinterests of the Nation. Whenthey had such an experience there fore of the *systeM, he asked Gentlernen who - may t-ot have inade up their minds previously to vote on one side of the queStion, whether they ought not to pause before - they. should -again.consent to adopt- it ? He came then to consider a Paper that had been presented that day, which when it should he print ed would give Oen i tlemen much useful infimna tion. Tay this Paper it appeared, that the. num bers wanted in,178 t, to complete' the Army to its establishment, exclusive of cavalry, which at that time did not exceed 5,000, was 2,5,279 ; in : 1782, was .22,000,: and in 1783,. was 20,000, being one fourth of . the whole, then 101,116 men, whereas the .number now deficient of a force of 150,000, was only one-fifth, a circumstance for which they ,were indebted to the salutary operation Of.those mea sures' that had been so much abused. He would ask any man, whether the system proposed Would afford a prospect of supplying the ordinary and ex- • traordinary casualties of the Army ? In the debates on the Peace in 1783, it bad been stated in that and ano ther House in justification ofits terms, without a eon tradiCtion, that the Army wanted 30,000 men of its complement. Another consequence of the enlistment for limited service had been the production of a spirit of mutiny in the Troops, which had called for the marked notice of that House. He could instance the condu& of the'77th Regiment at Portsmouth. The state of the Army, and of the Einances of the Conn try, .was disorganised after the American War, and - when party spirit should subside, justice would be done to that great. man that had brought, both back from their disorganised state. As to the Right Hon. Gentleman'sassertion that the measure would have no effect on the charaderof the Soldier, he was convinced when. the Soldier had a definitive time to look to for his discharge, he would feel uneasy, and consequently hot ,perform his clUty with alaCrity. That had been the case. With, the Militia when enlisted for three years, until in, the year 1781, a change , was made by engaging during the War, which made them look to the service as to a profession. He'was sur prised to find that the Right Honourable Gentleman stated only as he had before opened, his plan,, without any explanation of the mode in which , he expeCted to get rid of the incOnvehiencies of it. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated, in his open : ing speech, that in case of a. Regiment entering on' foreign service, the men whose terms were near ex piring might be drafted into second battalions. The fad was, that 'most of the perioi for which he pro pose&to engage men, would be in their, voyage ont and home,,. and the seasoning the men to the cli mate, so that very little would be gained. He should have considered; it a dereliction of his duty if he had not called upon the House to pause before they agreed to a measure- that was not suppOrted: by •a single fact. He might ask the Right, Hon. gentleman to state te'tneans by which he expeels . to supply the casualties of- the Troops even in India, wher e the I)::.ice,es,t3, l oliihment. cannot hereafter be less than twenty-five thousand men. He did not think it true that one-seventh:of the Army would be to' be discharged every year after seven yeait. The ordi ,nary.casualties were 14,000, and lie supposed that there would s be besides 5 or 6000 intitled to their discharge; which would make the casualties 20,000. Disgust at a particular CoMmander, or a particular 4ervice, might induce all those that might be entitled to a discharge, to claim it. He could not think that when'tnen were enlisted for seven years they could feel - very N,vell satisfied on being sent,on Fo reign Service, if they were to be aware that Go- .v.ernment could extend their term two or three years. He was not actuated by hostility to His Majesty's Ministers.. He was solely influenced by a sense of duty. He wished them to delay this measure, that they might try what could be done by the ordinary recruiting. The Additional Force Bill -had been - L , Ot rid of on the ground that it obstrutied the recruiting. No immediate ef fe& was expe&ed. The Army was formidable,. fully sufficient to defend the Country against Inva sion, and he was not aware of any opportunity cf einployi)iq any part of it abroad in offensive opera tion. Why not then wait to try what cats be done by the ordinary recruiting ? If that should fail, :he would next Session be disposed to treat the present Plan v. ith more deference than at present. He had now discharged hiS duty, which obliged him to enter his protest against this measure, .and he should not trespass further upon the patience of the House. CoIoneICRAWFO.RD would begin With what had fallen ,from "the last Speaker in the latter part of his Speech. It was certain that the apprehension of in convenience to the Colonial Service was the greatest difficulty to be got over with respe& to the measure, now proposed. Though there had been of lat e n ot more than 17,000 European Troops in India, the just proportion:, by the best calculations,,ought: not to be less than 21,000. The average loss on these was 'one to seven in a year, so that an annual supply of 3000 men would be required : at the end of seven .years about : one-fourth of. what was sent. out would remain to be sent home ; and surely if it was intended that any or the men sent out should ever return, that proportion .was not too much to be sent back at the bud' of that tithe. - If the individuals were sent back on the expiration of their terms, - the chahge of regiments would not be necessary. There would never be above 1000 men to he brought hoMe at a time. Some regiments at present had been thirty .years in India. The present plan would afford a more speedy return will) less trouble. With respeti 'to the West Indies, the fatality of the climate could not be correaed by any plan : but a greater - certainty of returning would be afforded by that now proposed. The exertions requisite in extreme emergencies in our foreign possessions hadheen exaggerated. The Army in India should always be kept up to its full com plement, as it was too remote to receive speedysttt cours. In the West Indies 'it would be necessary, to have an extraordinary force in extraordinary emer - geneies, on the sailing of a fleet from Brest, for in-, stance; but that extraordinary force was not al ways to be kept: up, and therefore the inconvenience to Colonial Service was over-rated. It was besides to be remembered, that the evil complained of would not arise till seven years would have' elapsed, and before that time etfeelual securities may be esta blished,. against it. He was .one of those who held, that for the honour and glory, and even -the security of this country, the present military establishment, in its present form, was insufficient. The measures.adopted by the late Minister, ,for the increase of our disposable force, .shelved that he'en tertained the same opinion. From July - 1804, when the late Minister came in, to Ist of March 1806, an increase of 21,000 -men, including 1000 boys, had been made on the gross force that is, from 230,500 2-1!),127 ; but this increase was entirely upon the foreign. troops, the - waggon train; the veteran batta lions, and the cavalry ; on the.infantry, which was principally. to he .loOked to, instead of an increase a diminution of 2018 4nen had arisen. On the dispo sable force' of 115,000 men; an increase of 20,125 had been made in the same peritid ; or these 13,000 had been derived from the Militia, and (5000 from the Army of Reserve; adding Boys and the. Veteran Battalions, it appears that no progress was maded were, therefore, stationary With an inadequate Force, half of Which was tied downntO the lefence of the coun -try. Was that a system to be adhered to ?' ft was not necessary now to inquire whether such a proportion of disposable force was adequate to, the maintenance of a proper degree of skill and discipline ; but 'the events of the last year were?sufficient to sheNir, that the existing disposable force fell Short of what the honour, the dignity, the interest, and the safety of, the Coentry required. We had hurried a great Power into a War, into which it was reluaant to enter and when it had entered into that War, we were unable to give it any, suppert. - The Noble Lord opposite (Castlereagh) must admit, that either there was the most unskilfill- management in the British Cabinet, or an insufficient disposable force at its corn nand. If We had had 100,000 Men 'disposable for .foreign service when Bonaparte marched towards Germany, we would either have diverted him from that enterprize, or landed near Boulogne, and burned the Flotilla. The system of having a small disposable force was therefore erroneous. Finding men averse to becoMe disposable soldiers, instead of inquiring into and remedying the causes,which made them so, recourse was had to limited service as a sup plement. On this principle was founded the Army of Reserve A&. The application of the same prin ciple was in the present instance resorted to, to pro duee a more useful force. The fitquency, the seve rity, and the publicity of corporal pimishments also required correction. A correction of this evilwould render the service more agreeable, without injury to discipline. The officers would endeavour to render, themselves popular ; but with. the check of the" monthly report of the discipline of the Regiment to the General commanding it, there was no danger that this cultivation of popularity would produce disorder among : the men at the expiratio'n of their terms. The smallness of the pay was another disadvantage which Would in some measure be remedied. It was true, a soldier had not the same wages as a tradesman ; but what tradesman had the same assurance of a com fortable provision at the end of 'l4 or 21 years. To try the 'limitation in the second battalions, leaving the -first as they were, would be to give to the Se co- tid battalions the advantages and charaaer of the first. 'lt was certainly better that the Army should be maintained on its present inadequate Ooting by means that would preserve its present excellent quality, than increased by Means 'that would dete- riorate it. But what a miserable system that must be, which, with all the exertions it made,. did not enable us the more to attack the EneMy; hut was, on the contrary, for the greatest tart, totally op -posite to the acquisition of - military and totally destru6tive of military merit. From the year , l639, the enlistment for term of years had bemused under the French Monarchy. Louis ,XIV. fixed the term of service at seven years ; in 1701, the diseharge of the men in time of war was prohibited. In the reignfof, Louis XIV. it was ordered that throe men per company of 60 men be discharged every month. 1777 Marshal Saxe censured those who had' notdis charged their men according to the :ordonnance.— If General Washington had complained of. the' en- • gagement for limited service, it was because the en gagement. of his whOle Army, when he took the command, had expired, immediately after the. Battle of Bunkees s Hill; and all the menlintitle,d to their discharge wished to.return home.., When re inlisted; it was only for one year, - and they insisted besides on the right of chusing their own Officers. The cause in which they were engaged crave ideas of equality inconsistent with discipline. But 6 a small proportion of our men can be, intitled to their dis' 7 . charge, and in case 'of invasion the - power of the pre rogative could retain them all or bring them back. With respell to the mutiny at the clbseof the Ame rican,War, it was excited by a breadh of faith on' the part of Government. The men \ were engaged to serve during the War, and in the interval be, tween the preliminary and definitive Treaty,. the men were ordered to India; under these-circum stances it was no surprize that the misunderstand ing of the Government 'should excite discontent. To try the system of limited service would be.attended with much less danger to 'us than to any other Nation. Our external hostilities Were under taken only by detachments, which were easily managed, 'and in case of invasion • the preroga tive commanded the whole populatiOn of the Country, This Country, from its manufactures and industry, could not have a sufficient defence without the Volunteer system, or something like it.—(llthr! hear ! from the Opposition Benehes).—Gentlenien May cry, hear hear! but though he highly disa'p proved of the. Volunteer system; some . armament 'of the mass of the People was absolutely necessary. It was from the impossibility of having all our force disposable that so many measures were : adopted for fort - I - ling forces of an indisposable nature. - It was on' that ground that the Army of R - eserve Ata and the Additional FOrce Jet were resorted to. But the training en Masse would afford a resource beyond any thing yet tried. He appealed to the General Officers whether the Army was dissatisfied. HOW ever contemptible an addition of sixpence a-Week, or a pot of beer, as it was called, maybe in the eyes of the Gentlemen opposite, it was matter of consider ation to'the soldier. - In the American War, when '78,000 men were raised for limited service, no be neficial change was made in the situation of the old soldiers; as was the case now, and jet no complaint ensued. He _appealed to the humanity of the Meat ber for Yorkshire (Mr. Wilberforce), whether the. men' sent to India should be kept for ever from their CUuntry. The, plan of havino . 200,000 men en masse would create a reserve which would afford an inexhaustible force, in case of. : invasion. The dis charged soldiers would be as polled as, ever. it should be, necessary .for.lbe' prerogative to place them again in the ranks. Before 'that ,they would be useful in training. It was, therefore, -matter of stirprize to him to - hear it charged that no subsidiary force was provided, when this force was so much more subsidiary than any proposed by the Hon - . Gen tlemen opposite. • - Sir JAMES PULTENEY stated that the ori ginai Artily sent to 4 . lnerici was enlisted for life: so •;.va.- - 1- the g - ,tette•r part. of the Eyptian. Army. - C'oirin;:l CRA rifcilD cited parti,..:ai.irly i tne 40th, the 2.:Oth, , .apd antient Irisn raised origlrally for :;•:lited ervice, but wno 1 - olunteered for Lgypt:a , l Aintqgitishing - themselve, Eg - yptian Goiteral LOFTUS said, the success of the mea-: sure proposed by his Right Hon., Friend dq/ended on time; but it deserved a fair'trial. , He owned the greater part of his,Objeelions to it were done away, by the power to return the men for three additional . years in itime of war.. He was encouraged also by, the success of the measure in, the American 'War. . • ' General NORTON said a few words in a low tonF., the purport of which we undertood-to be itr opposition to the, measure. He thought the ques tion already sufficiently understood and discussed, and he wished to come to a decision at once. CANNING could not forbear expressing his disapprobation and astonishment' at the manner and time in, which a measnre of o extraordinar'- 'and important a nature was introduced. ,This was, the first instance in which a matter of such a funda mental'nature was brought for Ward in a Clause. of a Bill, and' that not a Bill strictly and necessarily • connected with .that subjed; At least there could befbund but the ominous. and singular precedent for . such a proceeding in the Reign of Qucea Anne, the authors of which were the Tory Mi nistry of that- day. Such attempts must argue either great confidence in those who made. them, or great confidence in the Parliament to- whom they were proposed. So much as to the man- ner now word respedin . g the time within . which this hazardous measure is in,, be consider ed. The Mutiny Bill has al:-.‘ady . been suffer,- ed nearly to expire three times,. and. the 'fourth Mutiny Bill-had Emit a very short period 'to run.-- Consequently, Parliament would' be obliged to deli berate, and decide upon the present momentous measure, against the day when that Bill was to ex- pire, However serious, therefore, and well-found ed, might be the objections of many. Gentlemen to the present proposition, , they had no alternative but to give their assent to it, or to leave, at such a crisis, the Country without an Army, a dwadful dilemma to which the Right Hon. Gentleman bad wantonly and unnecessarily reduced that' House—because it was in his power both 'to bring it in sooner, and to propose it in a separate Bill. To what'an unfair condition then has.he not subjeded Parliament ? The Army was not rapidly crumbling away. Dn . • the contrary, ,according to the Right Hon, Gentle man, it was in comparatively a better condition than , almost at. any other period ; and all that seemed wanting was a systeM of graduals improve ment. Where then Was the excuse for thus' preci pitately pressing it ?—This, upon the present occai sion, he should not hesitate to observe, and the observation - he believed would be saniitioned by the experience of all ages and . countries, that never did any'discussions in popular-assemblies respeding thP condition and constitution of an army come to any good. Plans and propositions might be entertained with respeot to the Constitutional ,or Parliamentary , Amy, but the Housewas not thus rashly to inter fere-with the King's Army. This was the first tempt cf the kind since the Reign of Queen Anne. ' Was the Country in such a situation as to require such an interference with the prerogative of the 'Crown: ?—He did not believe it—but if it was, surely. it were matter of calm,'. serious., and mature . deliberation. Either the 'present measure was in tended as an enabling statute, to give the King a power he dkl not possess betore-r•to was dormant or explain that power, to revive it, if it viiadormant and obsolete, or to controul, it Altogether.._ The pre rogative requested no such - enabling statute: the power of the Crown in that respect is clear and un deniable—it can raise . men at any time for a li mited service: the present measure must therefore • be brought forward as a ,controuling statute, and that by his Majesty's sworn ,and chosen . Servants, to which they would fain make Parliament a party, and even disable them, ,ifcircumStances should re quire it, from retraling 'what they had done.— The Right Honourable Gentleman then proceeded_ to animadvert , with much point and humour on, the improved class from which the. new Plan seemed, to propose to recruit the Army. , His anxiety wag, ; that we should have a good and cheap Army, but ' withoUt any infringement of the,'Constitution, .or of.theprerogatiye of, the Crown,-,-withont any ein- . barrassment or disgrace toyarliament. Thesecon-. siderations should guide . the Vote he had to give, • and should incline him to vote .0 an Amendment, • which he* expelled would be- made, that dis- • charge should be granted fill after the end of a War. He should also, should an Amendment to that et:- fed be voted, prefer 21 years to the 7 or 10 pro posed. , He should also prefer 20 or to .to any higher number than that which was . proposed. - He should again repeat his wish, That the King should be left, in this resped,, the free exercise of his undoubted prerogative-Hhat nothing was so un fair as to leave to HiS Majesty only what - was one ' rous.and odious in the service ; and that when a boon was to be granted,. Parliament should usurp the merit of the favour, and impute to the Crown whatever savoured of harshness and severity. Could such be the condud of his chosen Ministers towards' a beloved and revered Sovereign ? Mr. FOX ; notwithstanding, the lateness of the . hour, felt it necessary to Make a few observations upon the arguments urged against, the plan of his , Right,Hoh; Friend; and upon the view which he himself had taken' .of it. It was objected by the • Hon. Gentleman opposite him (Mr. Canning), th at the Mutiny Bill was so near expiring, that no time was allowed by Parliament to discuss this measure. Yet the Hon. Gentleman who now complained .of the shortness . of the time, had done everything in his power to make it shorter, for he strained every effort to postpone the consideration of it till Mon day, and thus purposed to shorten the time by two or three days. It was also complained that the urea sure was introduced in a. Committee on the Mutiny Bill. Was it not the invariable prodice of Parlia inept to introduce whatever changes or alterationg were to be made, in the Army in some Clause of the Mutiny Bill ? Such; at least, he was confident, ' had been the uniform practice of Parliament, But - stranger still was, the . do6trine advanced respeeting the rights-of the House of Commons-?that House, it, would seem, has_ no right to.interfere with th e Ar - wy of ;hc, Crown, . What then „was the use of