The Sun. — London, England, 1817-02-22 00:00:00

)4. IC I r ostler. Eirl GnEY argued, 'bit nothing which he bad heard from his Noble Friend could be fairly con sulted As a breach at order. The effects of a Bill for snspending the Habeas Corpus Act, would, he , also considered, be to place the liberties of the country at the mercy of the Ministers of the Crown. As to the point of order, he must say; it wail nOt attended to by filth° who had inter= rapted his Noble Friend, while he was in a course of expl +patina in consequence of having been called . to order The LORD CHANCELLOR would submit it to their Lordships, whether it was orderly or regOlar ass to speak of persons out of that House. Car rying the consideration of order farther, he would leave to their Lordships, whether it was consist, e ot with their orders to have a . petition read to . • thent, impugning parts .of a Report which was never communicated out of that House, or to speak of a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, of whiCh not one syllable was said, He was na turally anxious, from duty, and inclination, to preserve order, find he earnestly wished to learn from the House, whether he was right or wrong in what he had advanced ? Lord HOLLAND expressed sentiments similar to those which had fallen from Earl Grey, and dif approved of any Noble Lord being called to order while in.a course of explanation. The Earl of LlvEtteoOL conceived there could oat be a more disorderly proceeding than . that which the House had wittlesSed, in a petition being brought down, referring to the Report of a Secret Committee of that House, under circumstances and telerring to a measure which the party had no right to know whether or not any such was intended. The practice of Parliament was against sttels proceedings. It was still more unparliament- Ivy that a Noble Lord should assume that as a • fact which he had"noright_to know any thing of, and then, upon that 'assumption, to throw an im putation on the Government and time country. 'Neither could any thing regularly be known of the transactions of the other House of Parliament, unless in case of a communication of votes. . lit divit,lual information in certain cases, is also given with a view to personal convenience ; but it was a most unjostifiablense of that indulgence, when in . - . dividuals names were cited for the purpose of cast ipg an odium upon those individuals. In the pre sent case, no Lord of Parliament had a right to know any thing so far ,as would warrant hint in makiug personA reflections. Supposing the rhea sore of is suspension of the Habeas Corpus to be in contemplation, it would be the act of the Go-' yernment collectively 7 -it would fall chiefly to he executed in the tFpartment of his Noble Friend (Lord Sidmouth) ; but to designate' individuals by name, who would have little or no share in the execution' of such a measure, was throw an odium upon them without the least shadow of pretence, and the more, to he dew ecated, as, not being Members of that House,,they had not the opportunity of defending themielves. Earl Gttosvntroa spoke at some length in ex . . planation. The observations which fell from him, e , be thought, were fully as applicable now as. they 'cool(' be at any whet. period, If it were irregular to ,iefer to individual Members of the other !louse, it cooltl not be so to refer to them us Members of hi s M A jesty:s . Government. With respect to the reference. to the Report, it . was customary for the substance at -least of such documents to transpire, and go forth to the cognizAnce of the public, and on Occasions so important as the present, the agi tationof men's minds, and their anxiety to learn, must he tiousually great. He must upon the whole think it ,a hard case were the present petition re jeeted, even before they should enter into a eon sideyation of the &object. He most again, there fore, mess on the consideration of their Lordships the propriety of allowing, the petitioner to prove his important allogations at the bar. The Noble *Earl diet; moved that the petition be now read. After a few words from the LORD Cs' raticat,Loa Sod the Earl of LAUDERDALE, the petition was read by the Clerk, on a motion to that erect by Lord GaosYENOR. The Loan CUANCRLLott rose for the impose of obieetiog to the petition's' being laid upon the table, it was of that nature and tendency which induced him to think it ought not to be receiv ed. ltuferting then to what bad been said re specting the import Or substance of documents., which exeltt:ively should appertain to Members of th e I.l,mie, he observed, that if no other person shmild call for a rigid exectition of their L4ord bhii,,' orders iu that respect, he would do it. It was not to he endured in the circumstances in which they stood, that papers printed exclusively for Noble Lords should go forth, so as that a petition could state what were the contents of a most im porfaut document,. and such a petition be pre sented by a Peer of thee House. He should, While be lived, suppOrt the'Laws and Constitu tion of the Country to the utmost of his . power, end agninit practices which may give rise to such p r oceeding's as the present: His sentiMentsshoUld be reco r ded in a protest. .G eel' spoke at some length upon the sub -Ic`.'. lie observed particularly with respect to what had fallen from the.NobleandLearned Lord, that there were numerous instances iu which in dividuals who found themselves affected and ag grieved by certabt proceedings in Parliament, had come forward in various ways, to endeavour at obtaining redress. It was well knohn that many of found their way into public ,print 1. The case of Mr. Ilorne Tooke, .when he took a legal course in an application to. the Court of King's Beuch , was a striking instance of what he had al bided to., in that liefore them, the Central Union Society, was held to be ,implicated in a traitorous Conspiracy igig,rtinA the laws uod constitution of the country... Thvy should ;t birefore, in justice, be al. lowed an opportunity of ,wiping of f that imputa, tints. . It - was ,offered to be proved that v they did trot meet for the last three years and a half, and their books and papers brought before the House. He w*S..bappy, iloweyer,,to hear, that his Majes ,. ,ciiief Ministers seemed to feel it an imputation that the measure referred to was intended try them. lye_ce 05,.pr!splt, petitione r - te f ese d to b e beard, be knew not on what principle of jtistice any other could be heard; or if a Suspension Bill were heat•, against it ? Tl►e'itarl of HAlt ROWS Y. deprecated any proce. dtwe : which wastontrary ,to the established rules and.'orders of P*'lian►ent. 'Were evidence to be received in the. case of the present Petition, by what rule could they refuse a similar procedure on the part of every club and affiliated society in the 'kingdom > It was evident to all, the order 'of" he House should be respedteth' and with regard to the present Petition, he must submit bis that it ought-not to lie on the table. - Lord HOLLAND agreed that the order,of the House should at all times be respected, but he could not concur in the idea, that no petition shOuld be heard upon a subject before Parliament, except it had an acknowledged legal publicity. The pre. sent case was one in which helhought they ought to hear the petitioner ; for with all his respect for the Committee, he most observe, c h it they pyo cceded upon ex parte evidence.. A love of the Constitution was best manifested in spewing it to be just . ; Ad there were some cases in Nhich intli vitluals had no way for redress but in appealing to the justice of Parliament. EarlOrtosveNon observed, that what be then proposed was for the petition's lying on the table. The only thing which he thought remained was to consider whether there was any thing in the si• tuition of the country, or the preseto aspect of public affairs, that should induce the House to entettain the Petition, lie thou g ht the pres e nt state of the business the preferable time for hear ing the petitioner. The Earl Of. LAUDF.nnALE thought there seas no adequate ground for the House not receiving the petition. Petitions, and even counter lied tions, were often received on occasions nearly si milar. Pe thought the ease of the Irish Canoni cal Propositiqps nearly similar. There, eunterous petitions were entertained upon the Report of a Committee, and before airy legislative • measure took place upon it. The Duke of Alyn. briefly adverted to a part of the petitioner's language, which he thought was sufficient to authoriie its rejection, Lord EnsKINIS briefly stated his sentiments, but rather in a feeble voice. lie was of opinion, that if this petition could not now be received, it could not consistently, at any future time ; and semett . to think that the r petitioners in certain other eases may as well be held implicated in, a charge of con spiracy, ,as those to whom, the Petition in goes., firm referred. The Eat' of DARt4LEY said a few words in fa vour of receiving the Petition. Earl Guey could see no rational groomd for re jecting the petition it states a part of the Report to have proceeded upon false evidenee, which it offers to correct by true evidence ; it implicit no doubt or disrespect whatever of the Committee. Should it then be rejected by a hasty divi>ion, the House he thought would not rise in the estima tion of the country. What he would suggest, therefore, as he thought that in tirpee like the present an extraordinary degree of attention should' be paid to such consideration, was, 'that they should not now come to any decision upon the question, but adjourn the debate upon . it until Friday next. .. The Earl of Ltveftrooe stated his solicitude, in common with the Noble Lords opposite, to afford every due facility in receiving the Petitions of the People ; but confessed that, notwithstanding all he had heard front the other side,tbere was not a word to prove such a petition as that before them had ever been presented or received by their Lordships. The comparison of t he present to the case of the Irish propositions was; he thought, very little in point. There, ,the resolutions went to affect the specific interests of various bodies of men. The object of the petitioner here seemed to be to' prevent the adoption of a measure similar to that which took place in 1795, and it would' be impossible to say to what extent the admission Would lead. There were various other .causes to be adopted with a view to obteieing justice, without a recurrence in 'melee manner to Parliament. Lord HOLLAND trusted that the House would not vote the rejection of the petition, unless they were satisfied there was something injurious in its nature, or disrespectful in its lungqage, to call for such a decision. ,Earl ViTzwILLIAm—As I had tlic honour of being a Member of that Com Mince of 'Secrecy, whose Report has been presented •to this Flouse, I feel solicitous to give my opinion on the subject of this petition. To that Report,l assented, from the nature of the evidence that was before the Committee. _That evidence has been contradicted by the petition, both in point of fact and time; and therefore 1 would be . exceedingly sorry that a petitioncontaining such,allegutions should not 14 received. At all events, fee! it a duty most sp. rlously, to press upon the consideration of the House the propriety of adooing.the Amendment for an adjournment. . The goeition ring evi, their Lordships iiks follows : • - Contents (tor the l'etitiou lying npOn 60210,) I 7.4,,t Contents 64 • Blaj nrit y-zigainst this Proxies were not recurred to. , PEACE PRESERVATION 'BILL Strangen were excluded 'slime time, On our re-entering the House, We found Viscount Sipmourit . aittlressing their Lordships, and stating he . had Bill; which he should forth. with present to the • House. lie was. then ready to enter into it detailed' exposition of the measure; but as., he, believed, front the lateness of the hour, a general wish prevailed that the measure shoald be llehatedon the second reading of the Bill ; and on.hlouclay,..it was his intention, after the second residing, to move the subsequent stages of the Bill. The Noble Secretary of Suite then presented the Bill, which was rcpt t the first time, in the usual way., The title appenred,us follows " An Act to enabk , his Majesty to wore and detain such persons as hiA Majesty should suspect of conspiring against bit Person and Government." Lord llot.winn trusted that when'the subject came to be debated, the Noble Lord would-be pre pared, not Only to state his opiniou upon the sub, jest, but also the reasons .and grounds upon which he reited the Bill itself, and what induced him to recommend such a hurrying of the measure through Parliament, The Lords were then °Hoye(' 191)e snmalPtleil for Monday; and soon alter the [louse adjourned until that day.. The House being occupied in balloting, for aKi Election Committee on the Rochester petition, Of gallery was not open till half -past four. Mr. 11. DAVI? presented a petition from the Managers of the lit istol Saving Bank, against cer tain clahses of the Savings' Bank Bill.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. DICKENSON presented a petition from the Clothiers and Cloth-workers or Suffolk, praying that the use of machinery might be restrained. — Ordered to lie on the tabte. Mr. CALVERT presented a petition from an indi vidual of the name of James. Helder, of Horsley down, complaining of a case of great hardship. The petitioner he stated to have been proprietor of a small vessel engaged in the trade from Rot terdam to London, called the George, which had been boarded- by the Hawke revenue cutter, -and detained on a charge of contraband goods having been found in tier. The master and the crew had been impressed and sent to America. The pro ptietor of the ship which had been detained, had petitioned the Treasury on the subject, but bad not been attended to, because be was unable to bring evidetiCe to prove that the ship had been unjustly detained, which he had only been pre vented from doing by the master and crew having been impressed and sent to a distant station.—The petition was read, ,and ordered to lie on the table. Mr, 11. ADpINGTON presented certain Papers relative to the. Poor Laws.--Ordered to be printed. Mr. 'Buouonnwinguired if the Papers relative to Fines and Forfeits in the Customs were ready to be laid before the House ? He was answered from the Ministerial side, that they had been three days on the table. lie then ritoved that they should he printed.—The motion was agreed to. A Return of the Duties paid in three years end ing on the Ist of February, 1817, ,ou Carolina Rice, and on Rice 'from India, was ordered to be laid before the House: ELEcTioN commirrEE. The Report of 'the Committee which had gone forth on the Rochester Petition was brought up, lers on whom the choiei were as follows: The nam e s the Mena of the Ilovise had fallen Mr. T. Lei g h, Sir C. Hudson, Mr. E. Law, ' Sir N. Colthurst, Mr. C. Wyatt, . 1% . 1r..1. 13ollaml, Mr. G. A. Robinson, Mr. T. Tyt RAI, - me. B. L. Leicester, Mr. J. A. Wright, Mr. W; Ita , lilvigh, Mr. C. Lung, ... Mr. R. Williams, • . and. Sir 'l'. Baring, Mr. J. M'Donald. The Members of the Committee were called to the table and sworn. KNATCHBULL rose to give notice, that on Monday se'nnight he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the Acts of the 39th and 40th of the King, extending the Law passed in the 17th year of the present Reign, wiliCh related to Rogues and Vagabonds. • - The SPEAKER inquired in what - respect the Hon. 111,ember propOied to alter the law to which lie had referred. It was proper to. state so much, but nv to do more, on giving a notice. Sir p. KNATCIIBULL proposed to bring 13111 to takeaway part of it, and to continue other parts of it in force. HOUSE AND WINDOW DUTIES ON SHOPS, &c. Sir JAME* Sttaw wished to call the attention of his Majesty's Ministers to a petition which he held in his hand from certain Merchants, Traders, and Shopkeepers, in the City of London. The peti tioners complained. of having been recently. called upon to pay the Inhabited House and Window Ditties on Tenements 'which had not 4een so as"se9se(i„befn e. ._"ln th,Kiast Session of Parliament, they had applied for relief, but had. not pressed the application, in donsequence of thefr having under stood a promise to liave been given by the Chau cellOr of the Exchequer, that their case should be attended to. At the close of the Session, however, these • unlawful . taxes (for unlawful he would call Ahem) ) had, been rigorously' le vied. The 'Barons of the Exchequer...in .Scot land had declared unanimously that in that coun try it was illegal to levy the taxes in question on tenements used only as shops, counting-houses, &c. [lc doubted not Ministers would afford the country some relief, and .had Only further to re mark, that the time chosen by the' Tax Officers for imp * osing these "new burdens, was one at which; front the markets of the Continent being glutted, the warehouses of the Petitioners were full Of goods, and they were compelled from the stagnation of trade to pay the taxes and to main. tain their families, not out of their profits, but by diminishing their capiial. The. Petition was then read. I t se t forth— , , 4 That the Petitioners have lately b een charged with the inhabited house duty, and the duty on windows, for tette mews solely used or occupied by them either as shops, count ing-hmotes, warehouses, or manufactures, and which can in no respect whatever be considered as dm:Wok-houses. That the tenements so assessed to the said duties, have been in the occupation of the Petitioners fur varioui periods of time, namely, from five bio - seventeen years, without havint_ been before charged with the aforesaid duties, or any of theiniand without havitog been. used as dwelling-houses during those periods, and that many of them would never have been Wien into the occupation of the Petiti o n ers , h a d i t not been sup posed that they were eleaily exetiipt from the duties charge able acs itthaWted howkes. rbilt on appeal to the Commis sioners fur Assessed Taxes, the Petitioners have nut been able to obtain either redress or any satiifactory information ail to the ground on which they have been so charged. That the Petitioners have observed not only that the s aid duties have been very pattially levied in En g l an d, h u t that the !tight Hon o urabl e Abu Bltroos of the Exthequer in Scotland have htionimously,decided, that no thop, count ing -house, warehouse, or manufactory ! similar to those of the petitioners, is chargeable-with the said duties in that part of his Majesty's dominions. ,That a petition similar to the pre sent would have been p r es en t e d t o , t hi s Honourable House during the lust Session of Parliament, 11 , 1t1 not an oliServation of, the [tight Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer led the petitioners to expect redress before its close. That as soon, however, its the. Session was ended, the Commissioners proceeded to enforce the assessment, and, in many instances, levied the rates by distress.. That the paitioneri nu nut yield to any of his Majesty's s ubje c t s in readiness to bear whatever inueuut of taxation the, necessities of the State may . ley upon them, ;equally with their . fellow subjects; but they do trust and hope, that they may not henceforth be compelled to pay or submit to duties and : i m p o st s which seem to he charged and inflicted upon them with evident partiality, and, apparently, without justice. The petitioners therefore pray the Muse to adopt such meitsures for theierelief as to the Honourable House may seem lit."' The CHANCELLOR Of 'the EXCHEQUER WB9 1111. derstood to say rhe case was already under consi deration, and that care would be taken to guard against a recurrence of the evil, and to do justice to all parties. • • The petition- was then ordered to lie on the taGle;" • Mr. SHAW (of Dublin) presented several peti- riffs, , and Common Council at the extens i on ontiieta o b f le th . e right of sutra , to lie LICENSING OF PUBLIC-HOUSE' Sir S.. ROMILLY presented a S Petit' , Inhabitants of Whitehorse-lane, hi plaining of the conduct of the-Alagie 'district, in refusing to license a part , that lane, which contained above 26 had no public-house in it: He would it should he lie on the table, in or& time to the Magistrates to defen d themselves, but he should ligreatt" nl° referred to a Comniittee,-frrease his should not move the revival of th which had sat last 'Session, and in ". should pi efer his petition being hex It was desirable for the Magistrates. ties, that the fullest investigation sir into this transciction, because it was evils already so loudly complained of sent system of police. lie could o f at least: b y 4ittiete°e,lo House, that in • one street there was a for every twelve houses, in an sl every eight bon es, a ; d in. a third s( every 73 inliabitants.—(Hear, bear,• testimony of. Mr. Gifford befote. tll4 personally existed, im i r p last Session, spewed me in the 11 1 ' manner to what a criminal exten t liouse_were.told that the Magistrtitr I re: rested in these houses, which the Magistrate , was proprietor of 12, soi l 1 : 3 ,1 a tereSt in 10 besides, thus making a t°"' 1 1 6 (Hear, hear !)—They also had licensca b a ett , last year, the occupier of which " 1 00 times convicted of offences since lie ean l lo , 0 house. Mr. Gifford declared he Coa l ' O l would not attend the meetings fur ;0' 9 0 ;0 tenses, as lie saw it was llSeleSS, 1)( 1 1 1 0 1 tieing paid to the complaints he list "buses.. Many , of these .honses we re te c osi he should rather say ed,. although they were known t° h e " pol moo retreat of thieves and prostitute. If ii houses and gift-shops in the neigithl'uor,',,oll Charing-cross, were license,' by tic oci ntill interested, be wondered Green Cloth, even though these houses Wer ,oo o Id notorious. -He trusted some measures:lo,d the major Prt'l'otli s uch aeu to . fits, taken by Government' to remedy never was there a time when such lu ctl i sti beil more loudly called for. The Report oil re o ft 1 last Session presented a melancholy Pictustirelp° increase of juvenile offenders. Oa ti', 111 „0 so? well as the rewards given to of fi cers,l°°.•ittred° thing be done ; when the House collo iner tto very painful disclosure which bail last O n to pa st ll made of the baneful effects such re `c o f 0 tile officers being induced, tbroufli'l°ve,...(ol rewards ,to sacrifice their fellow creatares.lierelil some length into the infpolicy of hear !)—The-Learned Gentleman then e_',, i f l uj, a(1 , ..1:,tri1l to any distant period, °°`,l„Tsl)llt,.., 1..; ‘:4oving that the petition do lie onto'. • f Agreed to, ' - • newt Sir. S. ROMILLY next pres e nted a I'C',; l t hc (ii the inhabitants of New Haggerstone' 'iiino. rish of St. Leonard, ' Shorediteb, cowl' gs,.l''' • i o r f ou : p i ett:l‘ivictll-1 which c l u o lel :: rv e lay s 3 . Partiality on the part of Sir D. " 111° Lic 1 ( 1° ,i f puttill'i;c:pciii Merceron, and other Magietrates, io 0 °,4 , 1 1. .liad-been refused to a house, hdil t-f°1. 11 ! • l ': e i; e _ o otirhood, aotl.complained of vaeloos rt he I vo' le terms r petitioners,. „ and prayed relief. i cen t • W ith t he Bahasa BATHURST certaireyndeo, I taC Honourable and Learned iv ite ,i the necessity of this subject being de e P i l o t 0) gated, and alio in that investigation 51";(100,1 put % off. • His Noble Relation (Viicolint ao oe i iiv.a.i extremely anxious it should be its 06/ tiiniireucillelaYnwastossiteeitil,intilliett.:,-tilil:o::,,,ti.:: ? Idiotic delay, es p ec i a lly con sidtring. i d of (if ,f importance to the public in everY P °1 4 0 4 1)1 1 He certainly thought such a serious 'e v '. o Olt touchtiali many yd ofto tebeeistLanguidstli:weso!::::::l4l, ,' to license ves a tigation all she support he Possibly C o tilc t i d Mr: BANNIITT commented SCYCITIY 1'00) wretches of every description we re l eryk i "t i t public-houses in and in which youth .were initiated ia e v be por i E which t i d lo boa t i . depravity. H e Instanced t h e case of l e iter i i ,, York public-house (particularised in tit coot 'leaf thel'olice Committee) ,in which the teP r e ctd el d tf the Churchwardens, and other rrsPoreits&9, ) habitants, had been unavailing CO V,4);' nt ili t r ession. No later ago than Yestetli,lett ir o d. the houses were iti the s ituation " 4 iti! s '( i a system d escribed; and of t ime e d, sit 01° ' corruption was evidently e ncourag,,, the • nised, for the purpose-of playing Or' fie: of those who profited h p laying s pport* „ I P y.„,1 , h op , say, that in his opinionsthe Lord 1 .- 1 ` iag oc ~ not done pia duty in allowi n g tiiill abut ' of i ll gistrate, Mr. AI na." ill 133- 'l' ercetoo, to rel • •It be f i mission, after the evidence wine . to 0 .: against himself before the • LOU)' lit , .: House. . to 0 1° M Th A . e ..TTOfils.ll3Y- GE NBRAI. put it - bet iter d y, able and Learned Friend opposite, 1 ili I .. 'ft ' i 0 in , • • e, an inquiry before a c o minitte e ' d i ng r f . not yet finished, it would be hee"tgegist / Lord Chancellor to act towards I l l ig d or% i , in question as it the case were dech ebio.(th e Lord Chancellor had referred t° 0 01 4 coll o al torneysGeneral and his Excellent oe cte t e l . , state of - t 1 ' of - the circumstances as tbeY i re b s yi the r o if, persons. The individuals aiiiicve" t iitre i ' !a l . of licences nn the part of ilic AP gi s ; b e bO t t ri . , file informations against them ;,hut hater' -eives°r.-. cers of die Crown could not of spelll6,reit Id be t° 3. 0 1(Ire# cases in motion. It woo • tbe qtr It ceedings of that house, and tit° b ,a for' said niallY, as the period was to be 10 0 " w 0111 ) ,6 when this House having, in just ice 0 4b t ,,, , ttk i l thoroughly investigated those cage be tlic"co. the Law Officers of die- Crorent . 61 ,ates ° , ~ file an information against the /kieg i ,f tr i tioo `, ( O of delinquency.- any WO' coy Sir S. H -....0M1LLY disclaim ed a-I n icht ;a Poring blame to the Law O ffi Ceri ‘' lir P Or e , OOP ° itlf Mr. 11 - ... ROUGH ANS Asked e t lict eer J i l l A i 'warned Gentleman opposite, v." st s e it t e si s ' printiple that no charge made pen co ot , to o in the. commission of the Vea.C e ' iss iato his being struck out of tits; 4.:°°°) U lu UOlis(10 a ge. ." .Vr WIJ ilop TsEs• al Lion from ah SterneY , g o stratesio ii isl s :ceOli o ir i tillai v i i ifte e n , : ) :r( i ' l l iel' l ss , ' °l:: } illlll4'"'lsl : l !,,il l i t lil tt ; l c Cot Mt NhiCII Cai e , r lb, i bCI O 1 1 and ii ti e . n I lk and 61 li ii 4, iota be D i 414 10 0 - s a P" ot t'q 1 i i i t he l ot sole I° , o o li 1 pisb lic :,:ett street , "", - 0' street, 004.4 t, h e ar !)-; Cos° l 4 eti ie o o st au" ,p t o Al 1 a li t ,ei : ligen i i il /! t'4i were t . 0 ,.. ti n tr ies , : ill d di