The Sun. — London, England, 1847-05-01 00:00:00

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Eaclllteit T"..,,FiviteD 0 F t. tr i A . c ELLon tvok bis seat on the Wool s_ k. MES SAGE FROM THE COMMON 3. Nessengt,rs from th a C ommons brought up several . . P OOR RELIEF' (IRELAND BILL. • tlt re e r o rd STA NLEY hoped th e Gus-Cm-went would give for attention the syst em o f rat in g . under this be fear e d t h at the effect of the present clause would ineßit', n glee the p ower to the tenant, when rated en a Ou Lett sdna, of charging half poundage on the gross be These dif fi culties arose from their interfering ere the landlord and tenant to establish separate ..sts, which he thought ought to be left alone. Marquis of NV in ofe tu move an alien - do:writ . on ESTMEA.TH said it was his in this Bill. The object l it, was to facilitate proceedings in the master's office. nad thrown out a proposal for the consideration of ft-i!est 'ad pa r `' Learned Lord on the Weolsack, that he !nuuld prepare a clause to allow of viva voce evidence afrida.vite After a desultory conve•sation the subject dropped. T G°V Ell NMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION. uh h tirr eßishop of ONFORD presented a petition from Plan in Oeurdetiire, in favour of the Government of education. .r P OOR BELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. thc:),VDEsART g ave notice, that in Committee on on ;" 1 , it W as hi s i ntention to move some amen d ments the second elau-e, relating to the power given to the r‘iur-lavi guardians to hire or to build houses for the re e.e,P,tiun of the able belied poor; and also regulating the * e "ef to be afforded to such persons. BEPRESENTATIVE PEERS OF SCOTLAND. s f .i rh e Earl of EGLIN'TON rose to move t . hat a tioneetteorn.inittee be appointed to take into concid k e existing laws and regulations which relate to rtme elections of the representative Peers of Scotland, to aeider wh at steps sheuid be taken to prevent person s t o the m y,.: voting at such el e ctions who are not entitled to do B° l and to r e p ort upon the proceedings which took place a election of Lord Gray, on the 17th of March last. said he regretted that the duty had devolved I, o ll ` - r l t uinl to bring this important subject before their an - ZuiPs ; and that it had not fallen into other 1„, Q 11— •*;_, It might not be necessary to remind their tr: 4 „, a ulPs that by the terms of the Act of —°ll sixteen was the number of representative Peers to be seat to the House of Lords, and to be cl eated out of the whole number of Scotch Peers. In Me certain proceedings' took place, upon which "lira founded the following firms at any election o f a representativ e Peer. The Peers of Scotland Were assembled by proclamation. After the commis sion dad been read by t h e Lord Clerk Registrar, the na mes On the union roll were called over, and all who answered voted and gave in th'-ir proxies. But it must be evident that the clerk had no means of testing claims, d therefore any vote tendered under a title on the un an ion roll by a person, though he way have no rght to do so, plait be recorded. A resolution was passed. restrict ilfe_the po wer to we proxies to th , s •n s an d grindsons ° , l- Yeers. but that was rot suffieiet4ly s.ringent. In 1$ a C omm i ttee wis appointed on the sunjeet, and re lutions passed by it which were referred to a Commit tee of Privileges, but the subject dropped out of memory. r!`f would not cite any instances of this abase, nor go uta_ .the subject at any length, but would conclude by f_Tnag that a Select Committee be appointed to in into the into the laws and regular iens relating to the elec tion of °f. Scottish P eers f or the Hous,!, of Lords, and into e Proceedinzs th at teek elace on the election of Lord Gre y on the 17th of March last. w. Lord BROUGHAM sa id t h at t h a gen tl eman t o hi l ,'_ ( nle rote o bj ect i on was oaten had no means to este n'oish his title unless it was called in question. taitteenj.ection however , He had to the appointment cf the Com- Lord CAMPBELL would teke leave to ad 3 a single ward to what had been already c ells e had come to his knowledge to prove the d - said on this eubject. Leetiv e Stu r h prove d hi s position. e o washte law w •ac s to a ,earfre usbvidual told that he was enti.led p 4nand he immediate) y abandoned his habits of industry , his family Wei-6 brought to utter ruin. Another —s p i l t had also come under his observation. ‘0 . 4 . 41 e LORD CHANCELLOR then put the motion, il;,ertitnittaesta we a gned to ; and e eers to comprise the re nominated, th and P next Monday, at two clo ck, fixed for the meeting of the Committee. __The M arquis of LANSDOWNE laid upon the table ut the House various returns, by order of her Maj, sty. 40S.nn er eral Bills were t h en f orwar d e d a stage, an d th e — "a adjourned at twenty minutes past six o'clock. rt., ROUSE Op CUMMONS. April 30. 4ne OF took the Chair et Four o'clock. LORD,' AMENDMENTS. T he Lords' ain Kim to the Cheltenham Water- It erks Bill Were agr eed - REPORTS. aihe reports on the fo•lowing Bills were brought up Ca l e gree d to, and the Bills ordered to b., engross, d : — o n i a Junctionh sr, i 1 Ra ilway (lunches from the Clydesdale Mineral Railway to the Doug,las and Lesmahagow, and h Fields to _trat..aven). Railway (Branches to Wilsontown, to Fauld- Cal: do e ,.! and to Biggar and 13roughton). of ;an Riilvvav (Ext...nsion of Motherwell Branch 'Ydesd Min er 0 Junction Railway, to Auchinheath ne 4 s l Field, with Branches to the Wisha.w, and Colt rier Railway, Canderside and Hamilton). South Bay and Canterbury Junction Railway. k, ‘ Eastern Railway (Croydo and Bromley Branches). "Clith-EaVern Railway (Alaid.tone to Chart). "'"'uth-Eastern Railway (Nlid•Kent and Dirtct Tun bridge). S outh-Eastern Railway (North Kent Line). oonth-Eastern Railway (Str,od to Maidstone). Mr. R. 110DGSON, on the bringing up the reports fr om the Committee on group No. 1, as to the South- Eastern Ralway Bills, _moved that the mintves of the Committee be print.d with the reports.—Agreed to. On the motion of Mr. GREENE, it was ordered that the Leeds Waterworks (No. 2) Bi l be iefi-rred to the Examiners of Petitions for Priva'e Bills, who shall report, whether any other s anding orders apply to this Bill then those which were proved to have been complied with before the Examiner upon the petition for leave to bring In the Leeds Waterworks Bill ; and that the Examiner hale leave to sit and proceed neon Tuesday next. THIRD READINGS. The following 1111 s were read a third time and passed : 440ndon and South-Western Railway (Widening, &c.) Shrew s b ury an d Birmingham Railway. IRISH DISTRESS. k i2 Mr, HAMILTON presented a petition from Dublin, theby 4,976 persons against the measure ado p ted g ish. Government for supplying food to the distressed LUNATIC ASYLUMS. Sot r t • T DUNCOMBE presented a petition from the alte.,--"Yz for the Protection of Lunatics, praying for an ig t in the law relating to lunatic asylums. in s.:• RUME presented a petition from a kirk session •-•votland, against clauses in the Marriages Registra °ll (Scotland) Bill. Sir D JUVENILE OFFENDERS BILL. W o n ' 1 -P• LE MARCtIANT presented a petition from r eener in favour of the Juvenile Offenders Bill. Sir C. VESSELS OF WAR. * 0111 , 4 NAPIER gave notice that, on Monday next, he J move for co pi es o f the log-books of the Rodney, e,,'ig9l Cambridge, and Ganges, from the Ist to the tttiecenaber, 1840. " e r• HUME gave notice t h at, on Monday, he would tat copies of reports. of oldster-shipw r i g h ts on cer n vessels. 1 -I ,..‘ r D MINISTRATION OF PUBLIC JUSTICE. 04 7, • 1 3. ESCUTT said that he would wi,t i t o as k a 9 c"tion of the Right Honourahlc Gentleman the Secre ffor the Home Department ; it related to a para. rtt Ph which app eare d i n th e Tim-•s newspaper, copied i ° ll l the H amps hi re I n d epen d ent I t was state d t h at the t tts Record er f or Wi nc h ester h a d res i gne d prev i ous to Easter session, and that no recorder was appointed in "is stead, in consequence of which the trials of the pri soners Were postponed indefinitely. lie had no know• ledge of the subject but that which he had gathered trorn the Times, and he was anxious to know whether a record.r had been appointed, and if not whether he had any Means to remedy the injustice which must accrue by such delay? Sir GEORGE GREY said that he also had seen the paragraph alluded to in the daily papers. The sessions commenced on Easter Monday, and the resignation was received at a late hour on the 31st of March; so that there 'vim no time to appoint a successor. He had not been informed that any inconvenience had t:iken place; but he Would make inquiry respecting the matter. FACTORY BILL. An How. MEMBER said he would wish to ask the l'eeretary for the Home Department whether it was his in tention to introduce airy amendments on the Factory T ie as had been suggested by the factory inspectors. first of those suggestions was with reference to t 1 1 .6 education of children and the granting of certificates; Seeond was with reference to the silk mills, and the 11 111 Was the necessity of guarding the machinery in mills. Act Ron. Gentleman had said nothing respecting the ot e k t relating to the silk mills ; and with regard to the t o ler two points he said that it was his intention to se . ' l2 ll F forward some Bill in the course of the present th — ,.' °ll . He thought it extremely important that all p e ,.? Points should be settled together ; and as all t h e '"ea seemed to be agreed that a private settlement of Question should be come to, he was desirous , that the t e 4lt Hon. Gentleman should state what course he in .ed to pursue. of GitEY said that with regard to the two points h a rieh the Hon. Member bade made mention, be had /441:1Irtie communication with those parties who were the 4 1 1 ;1, 11 3 , interested. With regard to the education of ill t V e it'ren in print Works, there was a way of effecting Wi t h a l' Was desired without any alteration of the law. eulti,j, e gerd to the casing of machinery in mills, ditfi- That 1; bad arisen with regard to it, and he did not know be l a te " 11 3 advisable or necessary that the law should vestd.vu to that respect. There were large powers it 1 , 0111( 1 tile inspectors, and before any steps were taken Cei ved. be advisable that their report should be re- „, , th e POOR-LAW COMMISSIONERS. 1 I .e g °- re motion that t he order of the day fur the Ho i. bZ in g i nto Com m ittee on the Railwa y s, Pier', and Har rl (Ireland) Bill, be read, :11 :der tr,_ on, t b r e ' nRRAND said that he was anxious to trespass 0 attention of the House for a very few moments, ... - "rQ to the make one or two remarks upon the extta ter:ZrY., to of her Majesty's Government with .ov e -_ new Poor-law Commissioners. It was uearly four months since he ' s lmmencement of the into that r tz t. Ression, and her Alajesty Government had not they i tle i . 44 House the cew Poor-law which bri n n °ruled the House they would in this bessimia 4 84 1 under : .ta notice. On the 20th of Augli - t ilovi n 4 COranlittee of that liouie rep.)rted, in the tol- Nort Ps their opittiun as to the conduct of the Vf Co • . teit o . . Luraussioners :---They stated that, upon . a ^ of the Proceedings of the toor-lew Comma- TRH "ts:on-rs, with reference to the inquiry into the Andover Union, those .2roceedings appear to hare been irregular au•3 arbitrary. especially in respect to the dismissal of Mr. Day and Mr, Parker. It was now eight months since that report was laid neon the table of the House, and still the same Poor-law Commissioners remained in full power, inflicting the same cruelties on the poor of the country generally as those they inflicted upon the poor its the Andover Union. Her Majesty'S Government bad screened these Commissicners eight mOntha, and they were now attempting to screen them still farther. The notice had been a long time on the paper of the House, and yet the Government had not introduced the Bill. It had been put on the list last night, when the Right Honourable Baronet knew that it could nut be di,cussed It had also been postponedj till next Monday, when there were four or five other mo tions which had precedence. If the Government desired the Bill to go forward, why not have fixed it for Friday night, when there were no other motions on the paper? He wanted a pledge from the Government that they would fix a night of theirs for the discussion of the question, giving lair notice to the opponents of the New Poor-law to be present. Unless they did so, he would himself bring the conduct of the Poor-law Commissioners under the consideration of the House. Sir G. GREY said, that when he gave notice of his intentioa of introducing the Bill he had no inten tion of taking the discussion on it then, but to make a statement of its provisions, and fix a night when the whole discussion could be taken. He had fully expected that time would have been allowed for the statement last night, but the lateness of the dis cussion which had arisen prevented him doing so. lie had postponed the Bill, therefore, till Monday next, the earliest Government day, in the hope that after the Factory Bill was disposed of there would be time enough for the statement which he had to make. After he had made his statement, and the Bill was in troduced, he would name a day for the secmid reading, when the discussion would he taken. RAILWAYS, PIEAS, AND HARBOURS (IRE LAND) BILL. On the motion that the order of the day for the House going into Committee on the Railways, Harbours, Piers, &c. (Ireland) Bill being read, Mr. IV )EBUCK rose reluctantly to call the attention of the House while he stated the reasons why he was about to propose an amendment to the proposition of the Government. The subject. was now fairly before them, and he would state the grounds why he obje , ted. What was it the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Ex chequer pr.posed to them to do ? He asked them to go into Committee of Supply, for the purpose of doing that, which in the early part of the session, he and those who voted with him told the House, in the strongest manner, wa.. in the highest degree inimical to the interests of the country. He would feel it necessary to read to the House some of the words of the Right Honourable Baronet, although it was not his habit to have recourse to this mode of argu ment. Now he wished to call the attention of the ficaise to the circumstances connected with this question of railways in Ireland. It might be in the recollection of every one in that House, that in the com mencement of the session the Noble Lord opposite (Lord G. Bentinek) introduced into the House a measure fir the purpose of establishing railways iii Ireland. Now, at that time the situation of the c , aintry was different to what it was at the present time. Then there was no great pressure in the money market; the commerce of the country was in as flourishing a state as it was usually in at that period of the year. The Noble Lord's Bill, after embracing a gem_ rill view of the state aft he country. proposed to ask from this country a loan of 16,000,0001. ; but he pro posed to ask this at different times, arid the sum—it he recollected rightly—which was proposed to he raised in :he first year was 4,000,000/. Now at that time the description whicii he (Mr. Roe buck) had given of the state of the country was correct.. There might be no great prospeiity, but there was no alarm, and there' woula hive been no difficulty in raising the slim required by the Noble Lord. Now, at that tune what was the language used by the Right Lion. the Chancellor of the xchequer? After the enormous sums of money which had been lately granted to Ii elaiid, the Right Hon. Gentleman came down and asked the House to grant a sum of 620,0001. fur the purpose of assisting railways in Ireland. But let them look at the language the Right Hon. -Gentleman! Mr. Roebuck had opened the boAc, when he was inter- rupted by The SPEAKER, who intimated that the Hen. Member could not quote from a speech made on the debate on the present measure. Mr. ROEBUCK did not wish to quote anything that was not pertinent to the present question. and it he was desirous of giving the words, it was only from the fear that his memory might not serve to give the precise mean ing of the Right Hon. Gentleman, whose opinions he was desirous of giving to the House, for to misrepresent him formed no part of his iatentien. Now, he thought that an argument might he used of this nature, and one which was particularly applicable to the present question— (Such was the imp or t o f the Right Hon. Gentleman's expressions)—that, although the sum of four millions only was demanded at present. yet eventually the sum of 16,000,000/. would be required, and that the plan would impose upon the Government a, task which he, in his character of Chancellor of the Exchequer, could not undertake. The expressions of the Noble Lord at the head of the Treasury were precisely to the same effect. He said, further, that if the railroads were in such a state of prosperity as the Noble Lord had asserted them to be in that country—and he instanced the Great Western Railway ..f Ireland—they did not need that as sistanciii for which h e soug h t , an d they should not givelhe money. Both the Right Hon. Gentleman and the Noble Lord went further than this, for they said that if they went into the market to borrow the money, they would go unfairly armed, and a ffi rme d t h at even if the plan was to be adopted it would not give that amount of employment which the Noble Lord the Mem ber for Lynn affirmed that it would give. For this they I cited the words of the Right Hoa. Bironat the Member for Tainworth, and, if he recollected right, the Right Hon. Baronet the late Secretary fer the Home Depart ment had also stated that such would be the case. They grounded their objection chiefly on the extent of the measure which the Noble Lord had brought forward, but for his part, in his opinion, that was the best recom mendation of the plan. Ile did not say that it was a wise plait ; but it was at least a bold and a comprehen sive plan—one calculated to give extensive employ ment to the poor population of Ireland. Since th© Nob'e Lord's proposal was before the House, change in a most important and vital particular was pro duced—some people contended—by the Government themselves. At the time the Noble Lord made his proposal there was no alarm in the money market. It was only apprehended. But what was the situation of the commercial interest at the time this measure is brought forward? Was it not notorious that the Noble Lord at the head of the Go• vernment was daily in communication with the great commercial interests of Liverpool, Glasgow, and Len• don ? Had not every mean, been taken to restore con fidence, but without success ? Were net the best possible bills the mercantile world could produce of no avail on account of enormous discounts charged for cash ? Awl yet, in this deplorable state of things the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was abeut te throw another anditional burden upon the Batik, and by what arguments was this proposal supported? Why, by precisely the same as those oy which t:.e Noble Lord had successfully resisted a similar proposal a few weeks ago. There was nothing in • his measure to di,tineuish it from the one introduced by the Noble Lord a short dine age, except the greater danger which they would now incur carrying out its principles ; and then, again, these compani, s would be unable to bwrow money at a rate oi' interest which they would be able to pay. The Right lion. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer opposed the measure of the N dile Lord, on the ground that the Government should not become money-lenders. But were not the circumstances now the same as they were at the time that measure was introduced ? And what a flaming sword was wielded agaiiat it by the lion. Gentleman, who said that it would not employ the weak and disabled, but the able- bodied. He said, "We want relief for the poor and tho aged, far women and children, as well as for the able-bodied." Those were the parties, he said, whom they could not benefit by such means as those which the Noble Lord sought. It was also urged by everybody who spoke on the same side as he (.11r. Roebuck) did, that the state of the country at the :line could not have been assisted by such a pro position. The Government said they hid lett nothing undone to provide employment for the indigent poor ; but, entertaining that argument, how could they now come forward with this extricrdinary measure ? Was there ever so pitiful an attempt ? He could not call it, an endeavour, for no phrase in the English language could supple him with a word which could express his feelings, without trespassing on the courtesies of the House, and which would adequately enable him to describe the plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman The Governmi:nt propo,ed to lend 620,000/. to Ireland, after they had ex ponied something like 10,000,0004 and when they . hail already deranged, not only the social condition of Ireland, but the social and monetary system of ;England, by their unwise proceedings. But be assured the people would not any linger suffer such proceedings. When they saw hundreds of persons swept away, families destoyed, situai ions well and honourablyfille d up atinthilated,and the whole mercantile world in a commotion, and, in the words of a French orator, with " hideous bankruptcy knookink at their doors," were they to see the Chancellor of the E xc h equer come to the Heuse with a smiling face again to demand mone y— money ?—( H ear .): It might be pitiful sum compared with their previous lavish expen diture, but the people would not bear it. He appealed to every gentleman in the House —if they wished to consult consistency, which was not a matter of much simu4oorrtatncieli,mitin his s d seem, at the present period — to present amendment. He would ask the Hon. Men'bers who voted in the majority against the Bill of th e N o bl e Lord opposite to j o i n hi m in carrying a resolution—that the other orders of the day be then read ; if they did so, and if they obtained a majority, he thought they would hear no more of tine scheme.--(Hear, hear.) The Chan cellor would get a very significant hint not to proceed further with it.—(Hear. hear) He felt that the of England would read a lesson to her Ma jesty's a a y n d afterw without h d o e tit even Munster, ; they would look rather that vreo nu i ntr appealctown, schemes like thes p e ri founded on no time than othrdanersenoyfththinegdal.seb.e nowll' e, to the country, placed upon the table of the House, rather move o ov oc e occupy t t h h c e ir o t t i i m re read.—(Hear, heir.) Tne CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he would not diseute the abstract right of the Hon. and Leareee Gentleman to take th e course which he. hat! theaght proper to take upon t h e present occasion, but • he believed it • to be an irregular one, and one which would in future set a bad 102)1J19141 ) ,„.../ATVRDAY s MORNING, MAY 1,1 VIC _, ' ( precedent for others to folldw. He believed that the t railway companies in I re l an d wou ld t w oulyauced out ef been more .correct course would have td go into Cora• l the general fund raised by loan for the general relief of ' i mittee, when it would have been his duty to make a ' the distress of Ireland: He thought if such a course i statement as soon as the Speaker left the chair with re- were to be adopted great inconvenience would result. ference to this grant. He hoped that the There was nothing that the House should guard more House would agree to go at once into Corn- against than an augmentation of the charges upon the ' mittee,—(Hear, hear)—and then. in accordance with Consolidated Fund, because the effect of those charges the forms which had been established in that House, would be necessarily to lower the Winces in the Ex he should avail himself of that opportunity of making chequer, and increase in the same proportion the amount such a statement as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman of the quarterly deficiency bills ; and the Bank having to would be well able to answer. At present he declined meet this increased demand upon it, would be unable to say i e _ an ything farther until the House bad resolved afford that assistance which was needed for the interests itself into Committee. of the general trade and commerce of the country.— The gallery was then cleared for .ac4visien, when the (Hear, hear.) There was also another point of diffi- House divided, and there appeared. ' culty in making grants to these railways, which was, For the amendment - ' 14 that having afforded assistance to these companies, how Against it - 203 could the Government refuse similar assistance to others. Majority —lB9 These companies, it appeared, required to borrow The amendment was consequently negatived. 1,000,0001. of money, they would have to go into the On our re-adinission to the gallery, we found marker, and perhaps borrow it at the rate of 8 per cent., Mr. HUME speaking, who said that the Hon. Gen- but the Government slipped in said h tleman had stated that, in his opinion, it was wise to them half of that sum at sthe Y w ere • his per cent.; company make this grant; in (Mr. Hume'e) opinion, it was thus entitled to borrow its million at an average of 6i not; but the proper time to make this amendment would per cent., while a rival per cent. Besides, this compan - having have been when the motio n was p ut from t h e Chair for of tee Government, would be 'compelled to pay the full c,tnpariy, a n n t d ,tiiavil t ig e t y he w: s iu s l is d ta le n n e : going into Committee. But it should be recollected, 8 te a t those who voted for going into Committee voted for obtainin g half of their money a t 5 per cent., could affhrd giving money for making railroads.—(Cries of N " — O , to pay more than its rival company for the remaini n g no.") Yes, but he asserted that it was, for the House half, which they might require; t h e y would thereby had decided upon going into Committee, and that Corn- obtain an undue and unfair advents e ever their com mittee was for the pu r p ose of g i v i ng mone y to rail - petitors. It appeared to him thatggreat caution and roads—(Repeated cries of " No, no")--and those who succeeded in prudence were necessary in measures of this kind, and voted for going into Committee who did not vote for unless great determination be shown by the Govern. giving money to railroads, would have placed them- ['Dent in refusingapplicants • •advances, the for similar selves in a state of stultification.—(Derisive cheers.) most serious evils would be certain to be the cense- The House then went into Committee. quern*. He thought that althou h the pani c was over - The that CHANCELLOR o f t h e EXCHEQUER sa id rated, and although it was ' true the co untry was in that in bri ng i ng t h is matter b efore the House before a prosperous condition,ethe saw enoug h to induce they went f ur th er i n t h e d e b ate, he thought it would be him to call upon the Government to proc eed with pru necessary to m a k e a statement o f w h at t h e case actua ll y I dence in future. The country was in a state, for which was. It was true that he had made that statement the no antecedent periodshowed p arallel. One of the a other night, but it was at its late an hour that it might • press notreatest calamities that ever happened. was now i possibly have been quite understood. There were uponthe ' this country, countrr, and not only on two distinct subjects on this question, yet though dis- ing but other ' every nation in which added to Europe. Added to t his, there was another matter duct of su c h a nature as to b e connecte d w i th eachtheir difficul other. The real question before the Committee was, as tiesandextraordinary caution. .., called upon them for • to whether the House sir .uld grant specified sums to the There was the railway system , which greatly a ffected Commissioners of Public Works t o b e ex p en d e d i n t h e the capital of the count and locked it up in that in formation of railroads i n I re l an d. A t an ear l y h our the vestment which for a considerable period made no re other morning he had an opportunity of making a state- turn. There could he no doubt that the capital of last ment on this subject, not at an y gr e at length it was year's railway had not yet affected the floating capital true, but sufficient to remove the apprehensions under of the country so much as would be felt in future. The 1 which several Hon. Gentlemen laboured, with respect to scarcity of food, also increased the necessity of import, the conduct and proceedings of Government. Ho be- and greatly aggravated the difficulties under which the lieved the statement he mtrie was correct, as far as it country was labouring. There - was, b e sides, the defi related to th e currency . H e state d t h en , an d b e must ciency of the cotton crop , wh i c h should be added to state now, that the present depr es sion was i n n o degree the pressure from other sources on the energies of the "wing to the operation of the Banki n g Act ; b u t it arose country. It was, therefore, upon all these considerations, from oth er causes . H on. G entlemen must have o b serve d that he was induced to call upon the Government to from the public papers, that the state of the Bank had proceed with great caution in dealing with the monetary improved during the last week. On the 24th of April. affairs of the country. Already a large amount of the balance sheet of the Bank presented a considerable money had been advanced to Ireland, aid if he might improvement over that of the 17th. It showed that the calculate on the future, the money which had been ad liabilities were diminished, while the means of meeting winced would be insnfficient to meet the exigencies of the liabilities had increased. They had, therefore, reason th e case . Th e ex penses of the Country were increased. , to be more satisfied of the groundlessness of the fears to In January last, there was a balance in the Exchequer which he had alluded there three days ago. He had of nine millions; and now, in April, there were but live; been in communication with many of those parties who and if this balance was to go on decreasing it would be were most capable of furnishing accurate information necessary for the Government to draw upon the Bank, on the subjects One of them estimated that there were and so disable it from applying its capital to the accom. more bank notes and bills in circulation than could he modation of thecommerce and trade of the country. country. He easily met in specie ; but, during tee last fortnight, wished to explain that in pointing out these dangers his the money market had improved. He would not allude object was not to embarass the Government, but to in to the increased price of stocks, as this might have been eulcate the necessity of timely prudence and the utmost caused by circumstances, which could not have been caution,—(Hear, hear.) foreseen—that was a circumstance on which no one could Mr. F. FRENCH saw no reason why money should have calculated, and, therefore, h e did not , t a k e it into ac- not be given to other railways, as well as the three which count. Exchanges were improving, and the last news from had been selected, provided sufficient security was given Atnerca was of an important character. He thought it for the loan. According to the Right :ion. Gentleman, right to say thus much, in order that the aperehension there would not be more than 280,000 men employed on that had been created might be removed.—(Hear.) He the public works in Ireland after the Ist May. With would new turn to the plan of the Government, and at respect to the works on which the men had been em the outset he wished to correct a statement which had ployed, he understood it would take 3i millions to gone abroad, that the Government intended to raise an complete them. He denied the statement which had additional loan, tor the purpose ef making the advances been made, that private labour absorbed those labourers they proposed. In reply to the Bill of the Noble Lord, who were dismissed from the public works. The middle he stated that the Government were about to take mea- class in Ireland were rapidly leaving the country, for sures to relieve the distos• in Ireland, by providing em- the gentry were unable to give them employment. He ployment for the peoele, by employing them upon the would like to. know if the expenses of the pesti relief works. He stated when he proposed these mea- lence which was now raging in Ireland, sures, that it was the desire of the Government to foster was included in the 8,000,0001. which bad private enterprise in the employment of the people, and been stated as the money to be advanced ? he stated that for this purpose two Bills would be intro- The Hon. Gentleman then read a number of extract', duced, one of which bad since received the sanction of the setting forth the great increase of fever in Ireland. In House ; it was called the Improvement of Landed Pro- Sligo fever had extended to the main streets, and it had' petty Bill, for the purposes of which 1,000,000/. was committed the most dreadful ravages in Fermanagh, proposed to be advanced by the Government. Waterford, Dungarvan, Armagh, and Cork, where For the other Bill, the reclamation of waste thirty-six bodies had been buried in one grave, and 320 lands, they propo ed to vote another 1,000.0001, coffins had been sold for the poor, in St. Nicholas parish, Now he stated further, when he proposed to take this in a few days ; one hospital was filled constantly, four loan of 8,000,0001., that a portion of that sum was to be persons with surgeons' certificates having been obliged applied for the advancement of these Bills, which would to be left at the door, an d more presented themselves be afterwards repaid, and, therefore, that so much of the for admission in the morning. He hoped, however, that sum should be subtracted from the whole amount. Have the money proposed to be advanced would not form a ing stated so much he was at a loss to understand upon part of the loan of 8,000,000/. what foundations it was urged that additional Exchequer Mr. M. GORE was strongly in favour of the measure. Bilis were about to be issued by him. In the course of Ireland had got mineral resourees, which only required discussion which had taken place on these two measures the aid of capital to develop°, and as private interference it was generally agreed that by far the most important, had been discouraged, it was the bounden duty of the of them, was that for the improvement of landed State to step forward and to afford a stimulus to the property in Ireland. So the sum increased from employment of the unemployed in profitable labour like 1,000,000/. to 1,151,0001. But in the course of railways. In England they had voted mewl for the this discussion it was found that a very great draining of the fens, and it was but right that such differehce of opinion ex i s ted resp e cting the assistance should be extended to Ireland when so much advantages to be derived from the Waste Lands Bill, as good would be accomplished by so doing. Ireland was it was originally proposed to be a compulsory mea- a great expense to this country. For instance, the sure. After considerable deliberation, it was determined keeping up of a larL•e staff of soldiers and police, but to abandon the compulsory nature of the Bill, although, what a vast sum of money would be saved it troops when they did so, they were aware that they were could be removed from place to place by railway. Ile abandoning a great porti on o f th e Bill. The measure q uoted the opition of the Governor-General of India, to for the reclamation of w as t e l an d s h a d b e en found ex - show that in India 60.0001. a year would be saved it' tremely difficult, and therefore the Government had troo p s c ould be c eiveyed by railway in India; and if thought it the best course to abandon the measure, as far thi s was praeticable in India,howmuch more so would as the present session was concerned. With regard to it be in Ireland.—(Hear, h ear. respect to the the relief works, he was happy to state that a great re- argument that agriculturaldistricts ) would not defray the duction had recently taken place in the expenditure, and expence of consteu • instanced the Suuth the number of parties employ e d. In Merck lass, there ern ton and Peterbiting lines, he traversed a orough Railway, which • were 734,000 persons employed. Before the end of ' purely P agricultural district, as profitable speculstisn. March they had been reduced 20 percent. This left the li ea l so quilted the opinionthe large con of Mr. Pete, nurnb.:r 579,000. A further reduction had since tekert tractor, who had had place, and by the Ist of May he expected that the „num- of railways, construction great experience in the , ber would be reduced to 280,000. Thus, while on the Beliumto not only in this country, but in France ane, beginning of March the number was 734,000, there turned g Out show fi that agricultural railways invariably would be on the 3d of May 280,000. And while this much to expectPr° profitable ; and it was, therefore, not too b great redu lion had taken place, he was happy to say developed that the resources of Ireland would d e that very little had been advanced to assist in the pay - tend also to railways in like manner. They would ment of wages in other respects than on these works , excellent fisheriesiresse and render more valuable the The accounts which bad been just received from Ireland, read an extract of Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman showed that a much larger amount of land was sows) to show that fisheriesrt?m a work by Mr. M ace a e l d i bh were materially improv than before ; and wheat, both spring as well railways; and alsothe ' green c r o p. And at the same time, in a great part of Times Cotninissio one of the letters of Mr. Foster,_ the south and the south-west of' Ireland, the ordinary niers and harbours litr the favour of the constructm e n he of for the promotion of fisheries.d The hear. of potatoes had already been planted.—(Hear. would enable men to therefore, y hear.) Na)', not only was it found that there were iie thought they woulgdodeoaailyout to seasdane money in plenty of potatoes for the purposes of seed, but they giving them those facilities better by Itien' money were actually appearing in many places as an article of in feeding them in idlene- , Instead of spending tasks. — food. The relief-werks, with some few exceptions. (Hear, hear.) Dr. Rushoe t. or at unprofitableof Caddar, in would in a short time be reduced ; but the people would the neighbourhood of Ga lt: clergyman l g y urged, in a still be engaged on unfinished works or on important letter, the construction of piers ' and harbours, and the public works that would yet be found necessary to be construction of curing stations. The Government de constructed. With respect to that part of the country served the greatest praise fer the pro posed construction which had been under the operation of the public works. of those curing stations. D r . Ru s tibe the aid of some he had to interns the Muse that many of the roads benevolent persons, had been enabled t4h . send several men made, especially in the wilder parts of the country, were eut to sea, and the fish they had taken was worth 8001., in the highest degree beneficial. That benefit also would and it was eagerly bought p by persons about be felt in a higher degree in the time coming , and the the place.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore, i it could not be great line of railway to which they resolved to advance sa id that the Irish were wanti in energy, and were the larger portion of the loan was, as the House kne w, afraid to brave the element s in order to obtain their the great trunk which ueited the west and south 01' living by severe toil.—(tlestr, hear.) They only stood Ireland, and Dublin with Limerick and Cork. During in n e ed of the means to enable them to work for their the last year this company had applied to the Treasury living. And there was nothing in the condition of Ireland for the loan of 500,0001. to complete their line, but the which was worse than other countries at a former period. Treasury, in the then circumstances of the country. For instance, Scotland and Wales, had been at former and at the rate of i n t eres t w hi c h was charged, did periods in a most distressed state, so much so ti' at both not feel itself justified in granting this application ; life and property were placed in continual jeopardy. but convinced of th e grea t importance of the Spencer was of opinion in his day, that the evils of line, they recommended that the Loan Commis- Ireland sprung from a want of wise legistation; it sioners should advance 250,000/. The Great was unfortunate that such a lengthened period should Southern and Western Company had not seen have elapsed without a better and wiser system having fit to accept that sum, and for that year, been adopted, He looked therefore, the matter was abandoned. On application measures as a step in the right direction. and it was for being made to the Treasury, the Government desired is l and the other reasons which he had urged, that he the public works Loan Commissioners to decide upon Govern the application, and they reported favourably of the went. He voteie hoped the measure of, her Majesty's when Ireland would be securities offered by the company, and stated that if' they a blessing an c a pe a d sa to fe seethe y to d' England, and when they had the funds at their own disposal they would not have should reap a rich hartest for the steps which they were the slightest objection to advance the money themselves. then about to take. The Right Hon. Baronet thee proceeded to read the re- Mr. W. COLLETT said that he did not regret not port of the Public Works Loan Commissioners upon the h av i ng been able to address the House upon the previous subject. The reason why the company made the first occasion, when the House entered into a discussion on application was because the rate of interest in the the principles of the Bill, as his Noble Friend, the money market was at the present so high. They had Member for Lynn, had fully argued the question, called up every call they were empowered to make by and left nothing further to be advanced. Act of 'Parliament, and some of the calls had even been The principal objection which was then urged paid in anticipation. They hoped by the assistance against his Noble Friend, was the impossibility of the Government to be enabled to open the line of set:m.4lg the money to be lent; that, however, had to Limerick, to Melton, and to Cork, within two years, been admitted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as being a distance of ablest 115 miles. The whole sum to easy of accomplishment; here, then, was the principal, be advanced by the Government, and the calls to be paid and almost the only argument which was strongly urged up, would be expended in the earthworks of the line, neainstlit annihilated. It had also been admitt e d t h at tee aed . n the employm e nt of labour by this means, or equal Exchequer Loan Commi ssioners could lend a sum of to double the amount advanced by the Government, 20,000 t, this had been denied_ on the f ormer Occasion, would thus be exp en d e d i n l a b our i n I re l a nd, it being Th e Hon. Gentleman concluded, by say i ng he would expressly stipulated that for every 100,0001. advanced by support the Bill. the Government, 100.000/. wo u ld be raised by the Mr. CAYLEY, belleving _that_ the pr esent was a company itself. The sum of 83 ,0001, was also proposed statesmanlike measu re, he could not withhold his sup for the Waterford arid Kilkenny Railway, and the sum port from the Government measure. From the turn of 23,0001. for the Dublin and Drogheda Railway. In which the debate had taken, it appeared to him the com the last session of Parliament a sum of 50,000 i. was mercial state of the country was the r ea l question which eeti y• towards the construction of p u bli c wor k s i n I re l a nd. t h e y were now debating , and itsanswered purpose — that purpose it was now proposed that 10,0001 . o u t o f that sum was threefold—first, that the Batik sh ou ld maintain its should be devoted to the improvement of the Shannon credit untainted ; secondly, that its st a bili ty should be navigation. There would th e n rema i n a sum o f ensure d ; and thirdly, that the country should 40,0001. at the disposal of the H ouse , a nd it no t be exposed to t his monetary fl uctuation, was his opinion that one of th e m os t d es i r able w hi c h of late had occasioned so much a l arm. means of employing that mone y was in th e H e as k e d the country what had been the s t ate of the encouragement of the fisheries in Ir e l a nd. Th e w hol e b an ki n g department of the Bank of England. He feared of this sum of 40.000/., it was now proposed should be that it was not in so flourishing_ a stat e as i t was thought. cirected to the fisheries , piers, and harbours of Ir e land. R u i n ous fluctuations took place in trade, and instead of Such was the subject of the resolution which he had to improving, the banking department became w orse . N o propose, viz.—"'That a sum of 40,0001. should be di- d ou bt the framers of the Act would b e very glad to vided for the purpose of promoting fisheries, piers, and th row aspersions upon the Bank of England, and he con- Right harbours in Ireland." fessed that he thought his Hon , Friend had not The resolution was then put from the chair. dealt fairly with them on the subject. His Right Hon. Mr. GOULBURN was surprised to hear the Chan- Friend said that the alarm which was felt in the country cellor of the Exchequer state that it was the intention was unnecessary, and that there was plenty of money in of the Government to withdraw the funds which had the country. He thought that the causes of the depres been voted for the purpose of reclaiming the waste lands sion which existed in the country had not peen fairly of Ireland. He was happy to hear that t h e pan i c i n the apprec i ate d. The country had seen at a critical moment money market had subsided, and that the Bank was now that the Bank was compelled to go into the enabled to afford every necessary accommodation. He mar k e t to supply t h e Chancellor o f the Exchequer, quite agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet, the Chancel- and they naturally became al arme d at the for of the Exchequer, that it was hi g hl y desirable that circumstance. Immediately succeeding that, when the Bank should act with prudence. He thought that the Batik refused all discount, was not that sufficient to Bank, but also the House was called upon create alarm? What was the consequence? Every not only the to act with prudence. A n d it was because he thought body who had a note determined to keep that note. so, that he telt it necess ry to make a few remarks on Out .of what was the four millions which had been the resolution submitted to the House. in order that the taken. supplied? Was it out of the notes of the public Huse might, by being forewarned, be also forearmed.— or the notes of reserve . ? It was evident, that if the (Hear, hear.) Th e Right lion. Berou e t had said till of the Bank was supplied out of the notes of reser * that the Run of 625,0004 to be advanced to three that the reserve itself roust be shaken. The Beak never before refused discount, and was not that sufficient to shake the confidence of the mercantile interest in the country? and that he believed to be the cause of the panic which had existed. If there were, us it was said, fourteen millions in reserve in the Bank of England, and only seven or eight millions in circulation, was it not a bad system which, by keeping so much money idle should check the individualoperations of the country. His Right Hon. Friend blamed the Biznk for this. Was it only upon the Bank that this evil should be charged ? The system was or* which, like Midas, in the midst of gold, produced starvation. With every deference to his Right Hon. Feiend'ssuprior information, it appeared to him that the Bank was not to blame, but that it had skilfully managed most difficult and complicated machi- nery. In August 1846, the Bank had a maximum of bullion. and according to his Right lion. Frienl, the Bank ought to have lowered the rate of discount. The Bank did so, and pushed out 21,000.0001., but in strict accordance with the system professed by his Right Hon. Friend, it ought to have pushed out 26,000,000/. The Bank did not do so, and acted most wisely in not going to that extent in sending out its mon , y thr , tuh the country. It had gone as far as it could in prudence with the system, but it exercised a t-ry wise discretion in not going too far. What was the Lion of the Bank of France, the stag- of tre(!e at the time, and the state of the people P Tt:e Bank, in all probability, prevented a very serious evil at the time. The question which they had to discus was, which was right ? The Bank or the system. If the Bank had in 1846 pushed out more notes, the state of the country, instead of being sound at present, wou4l have been the very reverse. In the spring of this year, whet, the sys tem called for the Bank to apply the screw, the Bank acted upon a contrary principle, and again prow d that its discretion was more to be trust,d to than the system which was to he pursued under the Act, Ile thought, after all these examples; that it was but fair to infer that it was the system which had failed, and not the Bank. In the present depression of ad trade in the City—when East India Bills were, in some instances, undiscountable—or only discountable at 16 per cent., when the ordinary bills of commerce were virtually not to he discounted, and when all credit was suspended, the effects of this sound system were found, 3ut, and if such were the effects of this sound system he could only say that the sooner they returned to the old and unsound system tile better.—(4.Theera.) After a few words from Mr. CHAPLIN, in support of the measure, Sir W. CLAY said that his Right Hon. Friend had stated that in Septemb,r last the Bank ought to have pushed out its notes, and reduced its discount to two per cent. That would have - been bad banking to force out money, and thus encourage cureless speculation. His Right Hon. Friend had, however, defended the conduct of the Bank during the present year, when there was a drain of money and bullion, the Bank had not increased its rate of discount, so that as far as his Right Honourable Friend's defence ef the Bank went it was of no value. In the year 1846 the imports were very great; showier. a considerable excess over the importation of 1845. A s' far as the Custom House could afford any guide to the amount, the imports in 1845 were about 20,000.000/. ; while in 1846 they were 21,840,000/. The same was observable in the importation of the raw material of our manufac tures in the same year; fur while articles of food had greatly increased, the articles of raw material had di minished. Tnis year sgsin, there would be a vet, large excess of imports, although, no doubt, that ultimately orders would come for goods, and the exports would be equalised to the imports. Still, in the mean time the exchange must be balanced by specie. No other plan of meeting the difficulty would suffice. Neither a pure gold currency nor an issue of notes would have avoided the rise of prices and the state of things to which be had referred. Notwithstanding all that had been said about the measure of' 1844, he was persuaded, had it not been passed this country would not have been so well able to meet the crisis as it was, and when it came it would have lasted much longer. He maintained the soundness of the measure of 1819, the object of which was simply to provide for the convertibility of paper into gold at any time when it might be required. He believed that the Bill of 1844, which regulated the issues of paper in pro portion to the gold held by the banks, had induced a more healthy system of banking and business, and the country was in a far better condition in many respects than it would otherwise have been. The operation of this measure ought not to be charged with the present state of the money market, but rather they should attri bute the crisis to the great imports of provisions which had taken place in the last two years, and the extensive application of the wealth of the country to the purpose of railway construction. He believed that they would with caution get out of their present difficulty, though he did not expel for a long time that they would be able to procure money at such a low interest as it had been obtained for some time past. He had been anxious thus far to trespass on the House to state his views of the real cause of the present state of their monetary system. Mr. ROEBUCK said the proposition they had before them, was to grant a sum of 620,000/. for the construc tion of Irish railways. Several Hon. Members had spoken on the currency and the state of trade, but no one seemed to enter into the real question hefore the House. The lion. Member for the Tower Hamlets had made an excellent speech on the state of the money rnar)t t, and the causes which had led to it. and here way the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, proposing to aggravate the evil, and to further derange the monetary market by advancing this !aro sum of money. It was a course wo.t impolitic and unjust, not only to the people of this country, but the other parties in Ireland, who were not to participate in the grant. He had certainly been much surprised at the speech of the Bight Hen. Gentleman, the Member for the University of Cambridge, who, while ho had spoken d, cidedly against the appropriation of the money, still meant to vote for . it. He was desirous, however, that it should be taken out of the eight millions already voted for Ireland. Now, when the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed that 620,000 L should be deducted from the eight millions that were originally voted for the relief of the people of Ireland, he should like to know what were the different circum stances in the state of that country, and in the intensity of the distress, that warranted him in making that diversion. But supposing the Right Hon. Baronet spoke in this way. (The lion. Member for Bath here read a long extract from the speech of the Right lion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer on proposing the grant of eight millions for the relief of distress in Ireland.) He believed that there was nothinp, to justify the princi ple laid down in the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman, as they did not know what the harvest might bring forth, he thought it was sacrificing all that was just and right and honourable to a false expediency to accede to this proposition. He felt himself called upon to divide the Committee upon this question, for he did not think that which had been hardly won by the intelligence, and by the sweat of the Englishman's brow, should be frittered away in this idle and unthinking manner. Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said that he fully sympathised in the difficult and embarrassing circumstances in which the Government were placed. Something, he thought, was wanting in grasp of thought, but no one would deny that the measures of the Ministry were founded on good intentions, however de ficient they might be in wisdom. The poor-law had been passed as a measure calculated to improve the social co , :dition of Ireland. But what were the other measures that were required to carry that previous mea sure into effect ? Was this 620.0001. to be the maximum of assistance that was to be given to that unhappy coun try ? But it was avid that 1,500,000/. had been voted to itni:rove the lands of Ireland. True, one million and a half was given to the Irish landlords, Mr. F. FRENCH—Ng given, lent. Mr. B. OSBORNE.—The lion. Member need not betray such extreme auseept,bility.—(Laughter.) This money then was given —no, lent—(Laughter)—to the landlords of the country, for the improvement of land anti the employment of agricultural labourers. Why the improvement of land necessarily led to the discou ragement of labour.—(No, no.) Would any one deny that whereas, there were only four or five l a bourers em ployed on each hundred acres of well cultivated land in England or Scotland, they in Ireland employed. some times four or five times that number. He d‘nibted much that the Right Hon. the Chanceller of the Exchequer was no farmer. He told the House that there was an wbundance of potatoes in the country, and that the green crops were laid down. If sovereigns were not more plen tiful than potatoes, the finance of the country would be in a deplorable state ; he said that the green crops were on the ground. Why, the period for SOA ing turnips was in June. They were rated for the soup kitchens, and as be had received, perhaps, one of the first copies of that rate, he should favour the House with it. The soup rate then in the union 0 . Cl onme l , f or three months, Wss estimated at 8,3401., and it would yield, if paid, 8,9751. In adopting that calcuLlion fur the rating of all the unions, he found that the gross amount would be 4,752,000 L This was to be raised for soup kitchens. What would the poor law come to ? Averaging the rate at 4s. 6d. in the pound, the total cost of out-door relief would amount to 7,000,0001 Seven millions of money ! Why, it amounted to the whole gross rental of Ireland. They had arrived at this state of things that thi measure would be impracticable in itself, unless rendered effec tive by other large and caniprehetealve measures. Did the Government think that these 620,000/. would absorb the surplus labour of Ireland ? Or did they think that Irish Members would rest sati,fied lit ?—(Laughter and cheers.) It was a lamentable proof of the state of feeling in that Hem.e, that when Irish gentlemen rose to place the distressed condition of their country before the House, they were met by invidious cheering ; 620,0001. were to be granted to the Great Southern and Western Railway. He was not in any way connected with that company, but he was ussur,d that this mode of laying out their money would be productive of th e best results. He would just read to the House the weekly return of traffic made up to the last week. The House would remember that the line was only com pleted for fifty•six miles and a-half of its length, and that in its route it embraced no commercial towns, or any manufacturing district, for as yet it only connected Dublin and Carlow. He found, however, that the traffic for the last week was 1,5881. He regretted that when the Noble Lord the Member tOr Lynn brought forward his railway measure in the early part of the session, that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government al lowed party pride to influence him in his opposition to it. The whole remedy seemed to amount to this, and it was feared that the whole of the tenant farmers were likely to be eaten up, and the process seemed to be very likely to be soon finished—(Laughter) — and to some it appeared that this was a circumstance devoutly to be wished.— (Hear, hear.) But what would become of the country when it was overloaded with this Government debt. As he understood, there was a rate now to be collected of a pound in the pound, and he had heard from an authority on which he could d e p end, but whose name he was nu ) : to mention, that a rate of 13s. in the pound had been l ev i e d, when a rate of tenpence could not he cul lected—(Hear, hear.) . Why, what lean with a good ac count at his bankbanker's,d ra would ever think of wing ou his resourees for the sake of ptirchasing Irish property, For his own part, he thought that there would be very • few. He had never been a party, either in the House or out of it, to the cry against the present Government, or to swelling the clamour on the other side of the water, and unwilling as he was to connect himself with any party in the State, he would give his Earnest support to the Noble Lord, if the Government were willing to look this Irish difficulty in the face. He would honestly and heartily render his support. The country had hitherto been governed by the Protestant Irish aristo cracy, but that system could no longer be supported, and they must turn to the democracy if they wished to im- Trove it. For his own part, he believed that the only re medy was to be found in a separate legislation. although he was one of the last to say that Ireland could exist without the assistance of England, for, unless that as sistance was held out, he believed that IrelliA might as well be sunk to the bottom of the sea. But yet, although he was no advocate for the severance of the countries, the only remedy, in his opinion, was in the institution of a domPstie Icgi4lation.—(Cheers.) Mr. SPOONER regretted that the Hon. Mewber who kid just eat down, had started with the assurance that he w(.101 keep to the poinf, when he had spolt‘n upon every subject but the one which was immediately b-fore the House. The lion. Gentleman had complaimdthrtt whole of the present"pressure was owing to the course which the Bunk of England had pursued in the manage ment of their capital, and great reference had been made to the l,an of the 8,000,0001., as if that l a d been any particular element in the suffering which had been en. (lured of late by all the commercial elltsaes. Bat what was the case I Why, the Bank. in the granting of ti - leis last charter, had been expro,sly charged to keep to t banking business, and were told that the issues , could only be made in a particuar manner. On this point they were expressly restricted. Well, they had kept to their banking business, they had not attempted to inter fere with the circulation. The two departments were entirely separate, and in his.- opinion the directors had acted wisely. They had not overstepped the terms of their charter, and they found that they had an abund• ance of mpney in their coffers, and they had not hesitated to cash the good commercial paper which was proffered for their acceptance. They had conferred a great benefit on the whole of the community, and had only acted as every other banker would have done. But geld went out of the country, and the specie in the hands of the Bank was reduced. The pressure ensued, but with that the Bank had nothing to do ; but now, when the exchanges were in our favour, when the balance of trade had turned, then there was a great outcry raised respecting the conduct of the Bank. Let them look to the balance of trade, and they would see that although so much gold bad gone out of the country, the influx of corn now would have to be paid for in goods.---(1h-ar, hear.) The Hon. Member had alluded to the conduct of the Emperor of Russia, who, according to common re port, had bought 2,000,000/. in the British funds, and he had represented it as an act of great magnanimity on his part, asserting that it was likely to improve the state of the British funds. The Emperor of Rus-ia had just in the same way come to the assistance of the Batik of France. But was that an act of magnanimity ? They knew his character, and that ambition formed a striking feature in it, and must therefore be assured that some other object than.that of merely assisting the Bank of England had actuated him, even if this remark were true. He would not insinuate improper motives to that foreign power, but the Emperor of Russia might have an inte rest in securing the subserviency of France or of Prussia, through the medium of bis great despotic influence ; not so much with a view of attaining any great advantage in either of these two countries, as to gain him some in fluence over England. The Emperor of Russia, it was quite evident, could never hope to obtain any influence in this country through his great military forces ; but he might do so by ntanostivering with the finances of Europe ; and it was evident from the Emperor's recent acts, that his policy was directed to the at tainment of that end. The Act of 1819 and 1844 must be got rid of before this country could prosper, or avert such an evil as the one he had just ventured to suggest. Already they were witnessing some of the bad effects of those measures, and unless the House took some precautionary steps to avert it. they would inflict a still severer blow upon the country. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, it was true, had supported those measures with a good deal of plausibility, and had asked them for a definition of the term pound, and used other specious arguments to in duce the House to pass h:s Currency Bills, but still he (Mr. Spooner) wanted to know if the House was pre pared to continue a system which had always led, by easy and regular steps, to periodical depression in th e money and commercial interest of the country. Sir R. PEEL—WeII, what is a pound ?—(Hear and laughter.) Mr. SPOONER said, short though his experience bad been in that House, he had seen and heard enough to convince him that the Right Hon. Baronet was too great an adept, and ready at - debating in that House, to render it an easy task for an Hon. Member. like himself, to grapple with him in a discussion of this sort ; but he begged to ask the Right Hon. Baronet where Mr. Pitt would have been when he came down to that House to ask for their support during the war, if he had allowed himself to be put down by parties who culled upon him for a definition of the term pound. Well, now, what was a poand ?—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) What was a pound at the time of the Reformation.— (Hear, and laughter.) Hon. Members might laugh, but Le would tell them that the country could not long sustain such panics as those they were now witnessing, without, indeed, the whole frame-work of society were suffered seriously to he disturbtd, if not entirely broken up.—(Hear, hear.) But the Right Honour able Gentleman had asked him what was a pound ? lie could not answer that question directly, but he would tell the Right Hon. Baronet that the pound of the present day greatly exceeded in value the pound which existed et the time the 800,000,000/. of national debt was contracted.—(Hear, hear) Ho therefore warned the House. in the words of the la'e Sir H. Peel, that if they persisted in continuing the present monetary policy of the country, they would eventually bring ruin and destruction upon the nation.—(Hear, heat.) He never thought that the state of the currency prior to the year 1819 was at all in a state of perfecibin. Lie believed that the operation of the measure of 1844 would prove a serious evil. There were at present many mer cantile houses in this country which were obliged to re fuse a great number of their orders, because they did not know that they would be able to obtain gold for the payment of the labourers. The conseqcence of the mea sure would be, that they would keep the gold in the country, but they would starve the people. Mr. MUNTZ would support the measure of the Go vernment upon the same ground as he would have sup• ported the measure of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord G. Bentinck), the only objection he had to the grant was, that it was not large enough. It was said that the finances of the country were in a bad state. Why, it was the fault of the Government that the finances were in that condition. He believed that the Right Hon. Baronet did perfectly right in bringing forward his measure of 1844; it was based upon a per fectly sound principle, -and it was the fault of the Go vernment that when assistance was required for Ireland they were to be met with an objection respecting the finances of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL was glad to see that this proposition had obtained so large a share of support, and he thought if the Noble Lord opposite (Lord G. Bentinck) had made a less demand than four millions a year for four years, when he introduced his plan for the construction of railways in Ireland. that he would have received much greater support than he did on that oc casion. The present motion proposed to give assistance only to those railways which had paid up half of the capital, and which were, therefore, of a bona fide character, and he was of opinion that it would have effected a great ,deal of good, in giving employment and mitigating the distress under which the country at present laboured. In the neighbourhood of Mallow there were 3,000 per sons at present employed in the Southern and Western Railway, and there could be no doubt that if assistance were extended to the present measure, proposed that the surplus labour of Ireland would find ample employment. lie regretted very much that her Majesty's Government intended to withdraw the grant for the reclamation of _ _ the waste 'studs of Icelan — d, which had been announced to-night, for the first time, by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, and he was quite certain that such an intimation would be received with great dissatisfaction in Ireland. The Government ought to give their reasons for aban doning the Waste Lands' Bill, and he was anxious that such should be done, as the people of Ireland were an xious about it. Sir R. PEEL said, that during the whole course of the discussion, it was his last wish to throw any obsta cles in the way of the Government. They were all aware of the difficulties by which they were surrounded, and even at the present moment it was with great reluc tance that he differed from the Noble Lord, the first Minister of the Crown. He opp o sed the measures of the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, far a similar object, and he felt bound to say that that proposition was less open to objection than the present, tor it was one general in its nature, and not intended to favour one more than another. But the Bill proposed only to assist one or two railways at present in ex istence, without having reference to any future schemes. This he consid ere d t o b e a p l an open to the charge of impartiality. He should have been very much disposed to have lent an attentive ear, to the Government, if they had urged in favour of this grant, the argument that the present was a special case; but such reasons were not urged, and he found himself conscientiously bound, unwilling as he was to offer any Opposition to the Government, to give his vote against them. The Right Honourable Gentlemen might say, that out of the 8,000,0001., he had 625,0001. to spare. Now, if such was the case, he had a right to increase the balances in his exchequer. The loan ought to be an advantage in which all parts of the United Kingdom should equally share, and he must object to any loan from the Exchequer in which Scot land and the other portion s o f G reat Britain did not participate.—(Hear, hear.) Why, he had been told that so highly thought of was this railway in the south of Ireland, that it did not depend for its support upon Irish shareholders, but that great English cap i t a li sts hud come forward, and i nves t e d l arge sums of money in t h e under taking. If this D u bli n and Cashel Railway did not be long to these needy and destitute shareholders, but if it did belong to the men of substance, such as the Right Hon. Gentleman behind me—(Great laughter)— Mr. HUDSON—I do not possess a single share in an Irish r a il way. ' Sir ROBERT PEEL —The Right Hon. Gentleman denies the holding of a share in an Irish railway, but he meant to say that if men like the Right Hon. Gentle man, non-resident in Ireland, but good speculators as ( o the prospects o f ga i n —i f t h ese were t h e men to be benefited, he would ask on what grounds was the present measure propo.ed. Liflumiccd by such consideration., be forma hiinselt obliged to record his vote against the Government—(Hear, hear.) He did not think as could hare resisted the temptation of a single member for Birmingham (Ln"7 . ' `,—) to enter into the list, but a ,• • en each flank, was too much to be resistrd.—(Laugster.) He consid ere d - t h e present occas i on one most inoppor tune for entering into a discussion on tge ni. netary concerns of the country. The Hoe. Gentlemen made a s ,, rt of promise, that it I erwlsined n Er.t was the it.wid, that he would explain what ho or any other honker meant, when they promised to pay five peun.le, The Hoe. Gentleman refused an explaeatien of Ne hat the pound wts. He said that he (Sir R. Pei - 4) v• as an insidi ous man, and that he would not enter into the election. But he would assure the Hon. Geraleman that a pound at the Conquest, really meant a pou: , d of the prettieut metal, it may have varied in the quantity of inettil, hut it took its dame originally from the •fact of its corres• pondence to that weight.—(Hear. hear.) At all times quantity o f the prceious (Mr. Spooner) thought the pound signified a definite metal. The Hon. Gentleman that a worn coinage and ao enconvertibie paper eurreney were the only and certgahitn,,rroesnedrriehs,, fiorr„,r.tieGeNntaitti,norin I s i s e i. a l t il:Tt 'l if ia lS l ir. Pitt had been e7•3llc,te,cl,,zl:_,tsvvvrears, r' lT:t ' - P ei l c . I d e t° •ered in :I:, ses i e l i ID t t ' b h : : d : b n : a ;t s —l ) l s ti e n )( d e . , l t l i n e t d r., i s f v. l , t , e ui, r• i tall - v rt ; t . of ,nitittr;s—(Grczt laughtt r)- 7 111ifi .t he leaf ado need t h e , ith ax, b e wo uld 1-14.ve ,niti. ',; : ri he (Mr. Spo e er) iwould not h a ,. e [lad a seat In .:I,:q liflui,'.—(Gc,-at I t :U m gh as tet;L eh M u r s . l i ) , :t eo i a tt i t :f ' l ' fe v l ln t ; ba h ' L ' t a rte ri N ' % e: a n .. t :i.i ' ► F r r i",h L e ' nsjlesd ! by diffictulties, which 2 1 . 5 shake off ; a . n( ..,. the . re rotes the sail o f the h fi (' N e 77l l :: ‘ , : lrilye fr. in flinetoe, he would say that the • was much improt ed . ity saMat not d:;.: iris 1 the which b t coun t ry d • e te ti lt l a i ;t . i . j f il h a ,i c t e c i l n eal th w e lli, c .i 7 r e e lz, ed an . i a ; s ne ir c , !: l 7 bL e b s t p m e r - . The Hen Gentleman the Member for Birmirghron slid that the 'Act of 1819 was most unwise in rustle ingthe gold standard o f currenev . H e declared himself agesnst the fixing of the value . of gold at 31. 17s. 141. the es, instead (.4 41. 55., the value of the impel - currency at the time. His complaint is that the standard of gold was not fixed at the depreciated standard. Now, with re gard to this, he (Sir Robert Peel) submitted that, Nkth the exception of peculiar engagements, it matters no thing whether the gold standard was fixed at 3/. 17s. lOid. the oz. or 41. 55., as far as the present difficulties of commercial embarrassment was con cerned. If the standard was 4L ss. instead of 31. 17s. 100., foreigners would know it, and would regulate their transactions accordingly. Regarding internal debts it might make some difference, but with regard to the foreign transactions of the country it would be the same whatever the standard of gold might be fixed at. He would ask them what the Honourable Member for - Birmingham wanted? Would his Hon. Friend revise the arrangement of 1819? If he would not do that, and deprecated an unconvertible paper cur rency, then it was clear that he had no remedy to pro pose. If he would issue one-pound notes, and allow gold to go out of the country, it would realise some temporary good, though an ultimate evil, but if they were to have a convertible paper, then no proposal of the kind would be of the slightest benefit in alleviating the difficulties of the country. Respecting the Act of 1844, the Hon. Member said the object of it was to maintain the standard of the measure of 1819. This was the reason alleged for the passing of that Act. To this he (Sir R. Peel) begged leave to observe, that the intention of tie Act of 1844 had been very much misunderstood. That measure was passed to secure the convertability of paper into gold; and another object of it was, to ensure the holders of paper a full equivalent for its value, and at the same time not to restrain the operations of trade and commerce. Now, it was his firm opinion, that this arrangement had not imposed any injurious restriction, and he denied the claim of the Bank of England to relief from the operations of the conditions of 1844. In that arrangement the Bank had the power to right itself in retard to the issue, and had the power, by due caution and watchfulness, to prevent ultimate ernharrassment or of an undue development of the cir culation. He must say—while he never could speak of the directors of the Bank of England in other than terms of - the highest favour—he mutt say they had been far from acting on that sound and careful policy which the measure of 1844 indicated. He thought that if they had adhered more closely to the principle of that measure they would have prevented in a great degree the intense pressure of the evil. He believed that all parties had neglected the indications which had been made for some time vast. In August last it was seen that there would be a deficiency of the potato crop, and that large importations would be required to make up the deficiency from abroad. To make up this deficiency and for the construction of railways, enormous amounts of money had been expended ; and if the Bank had been early alive to the signs of the times, and in January last made a provision to meet the danger, the difficulty would not be what it now was. Had the Bank raised the interest to five per cent, or six per cent for all hills, instead of maintaining an arbitrary distinction of such bills, he believed that.' the pressure would have been most materially removed. But to come to the real question. This was whether they were to have a currency convertible into gold, or no standard of - value at all. This was the matter which they had before them. Whatever course the House may take, it was his firm belief that no relief would be obtained by intermeddling with the Act of 1844.—(Herr.) They had nice or ten millions of gold at present, they were tree of internal panic, and their commercial relations were good ; let them, theref'ore, take care that in the hope of relieving the present difficulty by interfering with that Ae', they did not plunge themselves in much greater dangers.—(Hear, hear.) At present the Bank was issuing ten million of notes instead of fourteen millions; but let them beware oc the danger of any great increase as had been recommended, in depreciating the value of all the present issuesin eireulation.—(Hear, hear.) If. at the present time, trade is flourishing, and if the Bank is solvent, if the population of the country is in a satis fieetory condition, if the wages of labour was regularly paid, and all classes of the community participating in a state of comparative eecurity, then he earnestly entreated the House not to tie tempted by any hope of solving the present difficulty, to incur the risk of a far greater danger in a depreciated currency. If they ad mitted the unconvertibility of paper into gold,ithey would find that they would have to encounter a!1 the ills they had experienced subsequent to 1819, and do that which could not be done without shaking the foundations of the property of the country, as well as the social condi tion of all classes of the people.—(Loud cheers.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that after the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he would not enter upon the subject which had been so much under discussion, bat would call the attention of the House for a short time to the merits of the resolution before it—(Hear, hear)—in order to place before them the difficult position of the Government in regard to the question, not solely as affecting the general principle which had been under consideration, but to the ques tion as relating to the present condition of Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Wycombe had put a question to him as to how he (Lord John Russell) intended the :immense surplus population of Ireland should be absorbed. His reply to that question was, that the present grant was one means, among others, of providing for the ale.orp tion of the excess of labour in that country. Be it owing to the faults of the landlords, be it owing to the faults of the tenants with long leases, be it owing to the disposition of the peeple themselves, or be it owing to all of these causes together, they had arrived at a state of things in Ireland. in which there was an im mense class of persons living on agriculture, and yet not paid by wages of labour sufficient for their subsist ence. Taking the proportion of these as being eight in Ireland against four in England, an immense calamity happens to the country, a destruction of produce to the amount—according to the calculation of the Secre tary for Ireland—of 18,000,0001. takes place, it is supposed that for the future they cannot subsist on the food which had hitherto been their chief nutri ment. What was to become of them in future years ? He denied, on the part of Government, the reaponsi bility of terminating, still less of suddenly resolving, that question. He said that a more diffi cult problem never bad come before a Legislature. He said that they might mitigate the misfortune, they might pass the difficult transition with more or less of success, they might arrive in time at a more or less happy state of things, but this evil grew upon them, and only arrived at maturity by the full destruction of the potato crop. This calamity might do more for the regeneration of the people, than anything the Legislature could have effected ; it might place them at once in a state of happiness and prosperity. That was a thing which neither they nor any Ministry could or ought to expect to perform. But what he thought they could do, they had endeavoured to do, that was, to investigate the present suffering, and to save as far as possible the de struction of life, and to facilitate in some degree a better state of things. He need not refer to the measures oese objects. They bad been costly, and added considerably which they bad taken with this view to the first of . these to the difficulty of their finances , and great suffering to the people ; but when they were — or as some philosophers put it—placed in this position, when the question was w haherthe Government or the Legislature could not interfere, or whether two millions of people were to be allowed. to perish off the land without an y interference whatever, he said it would _.. be repugnant to the feelings not only of the present Mi nistry, but of any Government which might occupy their places in the House of Commons, not to hav e attempte d Well, then, their_ measures were t . o a i n n that these head . to have relieved teoffeme t them, m th o e re at o te r m le p s t s He could not regret 0 persons on the public works during the severe months of the winter. H e cou t l d o not the but preservation suPP6seth o a f t a these measures were con ducive great number of those persons. Th e next question—and a most serious question it was —it might be remembered that in the expo , ition of the general po licy of the Government at the beginning of the session, it was announced that they intended, by measures of a permanent character, to facilitate the tran sition to a better order of things, so as to provide for the future prosperity of the people ; and he would here say at once to the House—he would say at once to the Hon. Member for Wycombe that he did not pretend, be could not pretend to say that the Government could frame a comprehensive measure, or a series of compre hensive measures, which would modify the position of that people, and justify them being at once adopted in Parliament. He had not that confidence in his own re sources ; he did not look at things in so sanguine & manner as the Honourable Member..—(Hear, hear.) The utmost that they could do was to pro pose measures calculated f or t h at end, some of these might be modified and adopted by the Parliament. Some might be found beneficial, and others only bene ficial in part; and in others great changes might bel made, or perhaps they might be entirely rejected. In his statement at th e c o m mencement of the session, he said that he should propose to advance a million of money for the purpose of improving the landed estates. its Ireland, and that we should propose a million fur the reclamation of waste lands. The framers of that measure, svlidi was only an extension of the measur :akea