The Sun. — London, England, 1806-05-07 00:00:00

[i•ilinted with than), and . that - itaoperOse machinery , o .lld - henceforth be produdive. He begged, how- N - cr, to look prospe&ively at the operation of titre measure. The number of men to be raised under it, cm the Ist of Oaober, 1806, including the - defi ciencies in the Army of Reserve and Militia, would be 27,900; and supposing - it to produCeat the rate Of the average' of the last -. five, weeks, one hun dred and seventy men'per week, there would then be a deficiency of 22,290 Men, and penalties to the amount of 515,5wi1.dne. Whilst• he had the ho-, nour of a seat•in His Majesty's Councils he should feel it his duty not to tolerate a law whose provisions could not be carried .into effea.: The Country had viewed this measure in that light, and had called on his Right Hon. Friend for its repeal as a boon.— There was another, objection to the measure, arising out of the quality of the men raised by it. Out of above eleven thousand,men raised by the, Bill, 2116 -had deserted. What was to be thotight of the qua lity of the men when one-fifth of those raised ,de :iterted ? As to the unwillingness of the Parish Officers 'to carry the provisions of the Bill into effea, the duty imposed upon them was'so ineousiste:nt with the other duties they had to discharge, that their reluctance - to undertake. the new duty was not, to be wondered at.- The Right Hon. Gentlernan (Mr. Canning) had ob jeaed to his Right Hon. Vriend's measures, that they werecalculated to give the country too much of the mi litary chat - 11 . 61.er; and yet this Bill which he defended was, from' its provisions, more calculated to render the whole country military, and in those instances partieularly where it was least to be desired -(hear, hear The Bill had been brought forward to get • rid. of crimps and - high bounties, but had itdone so ? And aftei all.what was produced by the sym *pathies,. which were to be called into action by this 13111 ? 'After the operation of all the machinery of the' Bill;tmd the high bounties, what was obtained by that dangerous useless thing, a soldier for limited service ? • The system of his Right Hon: Friend was consonant to that sound philosophy which was founded on the practice ',and experience of all na tions: Another objet't of the measure was to release the: regular recruiting from all competition, to leave it free, unfettered, Unrestraine4nninterrupted. "(The -Noble Lord here stated the amount of the produce of the regular recruiting for four successive pe riods of. six months each, and proved, 'that,. in' the last six months, when the Bill was, said to be produdive, the regular recruiting produced only 4.890 men, being t 829 less than in the preceding 6, months ; shewing also, that the numbers obtained by the Parish Officers was only 140 more than the deficiency of the regular recruiting.) • He thought it his'duty to state. these details, but had avoided taking notice, of the original defects of the. Bill. He called on • the Noble Lord, or the Right Hon. Gent., near, if they respected the framer Of the Bill, to•state why, when all the objects ofit had tidied, they adhered so lirollv to the means it afforded. He was at a loss to know how it could be serviceable to the Country to have. the Bill continued. It might indeed be ser viceable to persons in opposition to Government, 'who were dispesed to undermine the measures of His Majesty's Ministers. He acquitted the Hon. Gentlemen' opposite of any-such intention, and was sup their attachment ,to the Bill proceeded from their partiality for a measure of their own produc tion. As to the abuses that .had taken place, he' thought it just to argue from such as were found .necessary for putting the A& into elf - ea, and which the lnspeaing Field Officers were not - sent to cor red, but to inculcate and to recommend. As to the indemnity to Parishes, it was impossible to avoid it without continuing the Bill. The penalties could not be levied after its repeal, and it would be unjust to release the Parishes of which 'penalties were due without repaying those that had paid penalties in curred. With respe& to the Bill on the Table, he Considered it a boon, or - rather a debt due of the Rouse to the Conntry. 111 r. BABINGTON stated, that the men raised under the Act bad been procured fromtherecruitinff sericants, and were under the standard size for the Line. •The agents of the parishes had-:the whole of the market for boys, in consequence of the lowness CC the size adniitted into the Additional" Force.-- Thus the men were procured at the rate of five guineas prerniu;;l to the person who procured them. They were raised, therefore, not in a proportion to the population, but 'the property. The quota for Leicestershire had been raised in that way,' and the' circumstance of the five guineas premium Was known to all the Deputy Lieutenants. The Bill, therefore, had the etfc.'i.it Of interfering with the regulartecruiting. . • Colonel BAGWELL was of opinion, that if ever there had . been a cause to excite.the feelings and apt rrehensions of individuals, it was the present, when. 4) fatal-a change was proposed in the military system, of the Country. When the Right Hon. Gentleman tame into office with his colleagues; if was spoken cf as an- wilt when all the talents •of the Country 'were included in Administration. 'But what had they done ?, The Right Hou.- Gentleman had done ]lothing to improve the condition or state of the Army. The opening of his Measure had been the, signal of a suspension of every effort that "was Mak zug ip the Country. He thought it ,surprising, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had not deemed-the Cap ture ;of the Cape of Good Hope deserving the Thanks of that House. Whatever he might think of the Additional .Force. Bill; he should not consent to its repeal till some other measure was to be sub stituted. 111 r. .LEE observed; that though the County he •re presented stood high upon the rceords of the House, not a man of its quota of 150, which it had raised, had been raised by Parish Officers. They had been *ll raised by the assistance of an Inspe&ing Officer, and were generally composed of men turned over as under size, from a depot in the vicinity of Waterford,. The Hon. Meniber then argued from the Papers on the Table, that in England the Bill had not succeed ed, there being no less than 14 Counties which had not produced a single man. He approved of the whole of the Right Hon. Gentleman's proposed•rnea sures, except that part . which left the soldier at li berty, •if his term was .expired, to demand his charge during'any War. That .he shoUld oppose, and he knew that many the. Right Hon Gentle man's Friends would also vote'ogainst it, unless the service of the soldier should be secured pending any War. Sir EDWARD HARTOP took the opportunity of raying .a_ 'compliment to the county he had the honour to.repesent, that it had raised the'whole of .its - quota.. They'foihni•i3 at first ,be' cause they did hat • understand the Bill, but they hAd afterwards- used every means in their poWer to carry the A 4 into ex- i ecution, and the county stood pre-eminently, if uot I . solely, on the ground of having obeyed and executed with alacrity the T-- Ata of the Legislature,. - 1 Mr. PERCMIL -was determined to resist 'thiS l: Bill rn every stage, and vgbuld therefore vote. aiahiSt e the Speaker's leaving the Chair. He allowed there Were several serious objections to the Additional i Pot-cella ;• but those.with whom be aeted always :I gave it to be understood that they 'wished , to modify 1 it so as to get rid.of the obnoxious parts. He Bled on the same principle as his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning); who on it former night wished to defer - to a future opportunity' the further proceedings towards' the repeal, in , order that the House might be ena 'bled fairly to compare the benefits of the Additional Force A& with the measures which the Right Hon. : Gentleman (Mr. Windium) meant to substitute for : it, or with any other system his fancy or that of any Other person may. Uggest. It was allowed that our existing Regula 'Army was great in compari son with every thifig but the exigencies of the times.. It amounted at present to 207,000 men, and it was said that while it was . shirt- of 300,000 it would be insufficient to the occasions that may arise. As the present excellence admitted no improvement in qua lity ; as the zeal; discipline, and spirit of theexist-, ing Army, were as high as the most sanguine wishei could desire, a nemerical increase was' the- only improvement that could be contemplated ; and it was fair to consider every measure as good or bad in , proportion as it was calculated. to , produce this effect. The Yearly waste of the Army, according to the ,SccOunts on the Table; was-15,000 men. The effeaive produce of the • ordinary recruit- - lug; on an average of five years, was 11,000 men, 7-The Additional Force Act had produced last year 9000, and taking it'at this, though there Was • reason to think, that it suffered to remain, it would this year. produce twenty thousand, was - it to be supposed that thellegular Army would be maintained at its present amount, in case the. Additional Force A& was taken. away, by an improvement in the' produce of the ordinary recruiting, capable of mak ing it yield as much us its present average and the produce of the Additional Force A& taken, together, - • that is 20,000 men,a year ? It may be argued, that the Additional Force A& ob•struaed the ordinary recruiting.; but it was incumbent on the House to examine, whether, after the Act was removed; the Plan proposed by the Right Honourable Gentle 1. - Mao was likely to . make the ordinary- recruiting yield 9000 met) a year, the amoont,produced by the Ad in addition to its present produce. `the Noble Lord 'had blamed those who took credit for the • amount of men raised under the Act in the whole of the United Kingdom, when the Bill- before the . House went only to repeal the Act as far as related-to England: but the• Noble Lord, when it answered his • own purpose,. gave the sanre statement, of the deser tions.ThoSe who objected to the Act on the ground of , its being burthensome and compulsory, would do well to consider, that if they got rid of it this year they would to have to ena& measures much-more burthen some and compulsory next year, to supply the defi ciency created by its repeal. If voluntary services I were not to be had, compulsion should be resort ed, to —compulsion-could Operate but in two• Ways, i on the person, or on the purse. In-this Country 1 it was always thought preferable to bring it to bear on the purse. The Ballot was much more oppres- -' sively compulsory than this Act ; for by that the ne- 1 cessity ofpersonal service, or the payment of a price beyond his means far a Substitute, were equally ruinous to .any poor man who happened to be bal lotted. It -was to be considered, whether the new ' Recruiting Plan would produce equally with what it went to take away ? and whether the things -asSo dated with it' did not render it altogether inadmis sible ? Whether the Plan ought to be tried in time - of War ? Whether the Soldier was to have his conge in the most tryie period of a War ? Whe ther it was to extend to the existing Army,' to the' Marines, or to the Artillery ? On this last point he WAS very, particular, for he -had heard from the most skilful Artillery Officers, that the limitations. would be ruinous to their service ; that n good artil- lery man could not be made in less than seven years; and - that a man was most efficient from ',the toth to, the 20th year, , He complained that the opinions of the General:Officers were withheld,; they were -all; adverse to dismissal in time of War. He allowed that the - Soldiers of the existing Army had not,- in stria justice, a right to complain, if they did, not get all - the advantages of% the net' engagements ; but when the Right Honourable Gentleman laid down his Plan qn the broad basis of human nature, and the feelings of the human Mind, they .felt their cases . assitnilated to the, principles of the Plan, and there fore they thought they had a right to its advantages, 'He 'wished to know whether it was intended to give a boOnty 'at each renewed enlistment. He I understood it was intended to give -oo bOunty, or a very small one.. :If: that was the e case the man would go off and, enter, either - into a new , Re giment,' or as an original recruit, and get- the full . bounty. It was not to be supposed that a- Soldier's life annuity of sa. a week was worth so large a pur - chase as sixteen guineas. , Tints 20 or 30,000 men would be either lost every year, or retained fat the expecce of a large bounty. So much for the eco nomy of the plan ! Even these despised six-pences would cost the Country 120,000 pounds a year,— But, perhaps, a resource was expected from the Vo lunteers, or the training en masse. He did not know whether the Right Holt'. Gentleman meant to encou rage do to discourage the Volunteers. He was as great an advocate for the Volunteer. Force as any,— He looked upon it as the most important, the cheap est, the most innocent, and the most effective mea sure that had ever been adopted if the Hon. Geo tlethan did not mean -fully to preserve the Volunteer System, he ought to. have dissolved it all at once.— The opinion of many of our highest General Officers was, that, the Volunteers were fit to serve with troops of the line : be did not suppose•that these opinions were to be interpreted so as to say that they- were equal to soldiers of the line. There was an opinion ofa Noble Lord high in His Majesty's Councils(Lord Moira) still stronger in favour of the VOlunteers of Scotland, when the- Noble - Lord declared ,he would most readily lead them. against the Enemy at any time. He-could not set the Horionrable Gen tleman's opinion against these authorities. He did not'think the Hdimurable Gentleman had sufficient . experience of the Volunteer. Systein. . He - did not know In what, state of discipline the Felbrigge Vo teer 3 RightHOli,curabl4 man Windhanil, as Colonel of then ; .was the Only -Colonel of ',' . olunteers of the Ivingdom.--- Tlie other C(ir-ps *ere' by:,Lit,-Utenant- Colonels, by Majors only., and Corps of thestrengtll of this...by (liptains. - .l.'here, Were no, IVlli'jcrs Under the Ftirht.llon. CaPta;n * , no sUbal= tern Qiiicers : there Were only two Serjeants, and no drummers to this CorpS of seventy-three men. Iti short, with the exception of the Colonel, it exhibited an example of all that was imperfect in the Voluri 7 teer System. He trusted, Wowever, that the Volun teers of Britain would not be judged of by flieFel brigge Corps: The training; of the leyy en masse was compulsory` and tyrannical in the highest degree, Its principle had been inverted, - he supposed, beCause it calm froni this shop.. It ‘ had been instituted as a resnurcenetessary in a great emergency and Volun teer services had been 'encouraged in 'preference, to it. The training en massewould be iiisuflicient for want of ,Officers to train so large , a number . The substance of the Right Hon. Gentleman's theory was, that we would get more Men by holding out less advantage. He was against the repeal of the Ata s for at present there was not the ]east Prospea that the Right, Honourable Gentleman would be successful. * • - 'Lord H. PETTY, in explanation, said, the ac count of the deserters he had stated was the only one he could find. Lord CATLEREAGH also explained. Mr. FOX said he found himself in a very peen situatiba,' in haVino - td persuade the House to repeal an, A6t, every c)bjetf:lioti to which had been confirmed by the experience of those whO had wit - - nessed its operation, and avowed by its advoeates therefore it was said, that it was hard; to iudge the measure until It was understood, and it Was. not un til the A& had been 18 " months in operation that any progress was Made towards understanding 'it.- 0, wise Legislature! more wise Executive Govern went, that passed an Acct to ruek.att immediate and urgent occasion, which could riot be understood in less than 18 months, and which could not even then be executed!, What hutniliation could be greater for those •who had proposed the Bill, than this total failure? And now, when it was boasted that it was productive, was not the execution of it attended con fessedly, and with the" avowal of the Hon. Gentle men themselves,: with the most intolerable oppres- Sions and hardships? It was not till the A& had gone out- of itself, and abandoned its charaaeristic principles; that it had any effea whatsoever. It had been held forth as the great benefit to - be derived from the measure; that it, Would proceed by a new agency; from which it would:hi no respe& be suf fered to depart. Surely, the titles of a' fanciful theo fy,' and'a sentimental proje&,' noW so facetiously given to the Plans.Of his Right Hon. Friend, applied better to their measures thin to the Plans of his Right, Hon. Friend: Men from the-same place were thought likely to be induced by a regard for their companions and. a desire to accompany them. and shard their, for tunes. All that was attraative in' this way was noW' destroyed; the sphere of the reuniting was enlarged,: and the principle of Abe Bill so far done away alto gether. He had heard it.was - Proposed to do away the double bounties. He had read the Papers on. the Table, the ,contents of which'it was Convenient for the Noble Lord to abstain from stating;•though they were ordered on his Motion; and from these PaperS he could see, that it would have been to render the Act most completely nugatery'if that bad been done: for now that the distri& had been enlas-ged, the men could not be had without employing .4gentS,' he should:not say Crimps; .and alt the Writers 'on the. subje& of the Bill harped upon the additional bounty of six guineas. , Then it was proposed to' amend - the A6l, by taking away the whole of this. A great deal of other mattet, foreign to the Ae - t had been :intro dUced into the debate, not by the Noble Lord cer tainly, but by those'Who followed hini on the other side, It was contended that this Bill 'should not be 'repealed till the House should have decided - On the whole of the Military Measures his Right Hop. Friend bad to bring forward, as if the consideration of the propriety of enliSting'men for limited 'service would not be as open after the repeal of this Bill as beforv. • Neither was the question of the ,repeal at all conue&ed with the ciestion„whether the Volun teers should be kept on the August or the June al lowances. He could not draw his argument in fa vour of the ,repeal from it; and certainly the. Gen- . tlemen on the other side could draW no- argument against the repeal. A number of arguments relati‘ 6 to this Bill were drawn from the training en Masse, and these of so detailed ,a nature, that those who urged them seemea to think there was a measure of that kind before the 'HoUse, and that the House Was in a Comthittee upon it. Again:it was asked, if we got rid 'of' the Bill, what was to be substituted for it ? He had long been of opintem, that the best substi tute for the Bill was the repeal of it; the best correc tive Of the Miscitief it .had introduced was to put an: cacti() it But though'uo person was more partial to his. Right Hon. Friend's plans than he was; though he boasted. of having a. considerahle share in the formation. of these plans, as well as in the 'argu `merits in support of theni, he disclaimed for them all idea of their being a substitute for the :Additional Force AEt. The reason whythis Right Honourable Friend had not brought forward, sooner his Bill for, the repeal of the . Additional , Force Aft Was, that' having a number of points in his mind relating to . the Military Establishinent, he thought it better to disclose them together. at the outset but it did n& therefore follow, that the points were to be discussed together... Thoughi his Noble Friend near him had brought forward Many heads of taxation in , his Budget, did it follow that the pcoperty Tax - , the Loan', and the iron Duty, were confusedly discussed, whenever any part of that Budget .‘vas -underconsi deratiOn ? When the Hon. Gentleman opposite ask , . ed, would you give eway the Additional Force Bill? Inc answer was, yes, certainly;' for in giving it : away, yoU give away a loss. fe had - 'often' said this A& produced nothing to -the Disposable Re -gular 'Force: . The accounts befOre' the 'House showed it as ually to lib -attended' with a loss Mr. Fox,' theh •wen i t - into a_ corriPkttive calcula tion to .spew, that' WheneVer this ACS !hid been pro , du6l - ive,' the ordinary TetrUi•tin'had . b , ....en less pro du6iive than when tts'operation xras - unehecked"; and for this purpose, entered into a. variety of statements, .sorn2wll'at to these of Mr. Hawthorn . on a former occasiow;- from Which the Right Honourable SeCretary made it am ear, . that instead' 'of 'assist , . in the ordinal)? recrultig, , .. the . AriclitiOnal - Force , A(c hat:, ,4,..tprk, , c4 it signifiec what tie .Pat.oh‘, iiliproch!,ced i .t:c; waii , attended - withsuth. P.-lit his gai'den i witli his Child ; .and the chlldr9itv - c4. Soule. shovels of earth ; and. then came ang a stout boy aM.I, how much More I am a,Ue t 6 8(; this than ',Was last yeAr, I e would answer l . . "1 I ani Very glad of but my V.'orkrneti would have f orien great- deal more if you had riot hindered them." 71'herefore, however glad he might be cf the improve" Mont of till's promising child, he would remove him out of the, way of his good steady workmen W . ) - 10114 he impeded, Our Forte limited in point of timt was as great as could be wished. He allowed .the clig?cullle thatgtood, in the way of the training -e/t, ntaS7e, but these difficulties 'night be conquered in the Committee. When the whdle Country was train ed avast facility would be given to the recruiting of the Regular Army; and tho' the Regular Army would: be the first Oppesed to the Energy * this trained pot u- lation would be the main and Ultimate 74tpix:rt, which woulaand must render . . the Country invilicibTe. as to the Volunteers, the nem Gentleman Said, be did no: understand his Right Hon: Friend on thi.j point And certainly; if he judged Of his 4-1o:x. Friend's meaning by his own misunderstandings, ho was gnilf;: , of as great an error a 3 judging of all t. 11,4 Volu - nteers by the Felbrigp Corps, as he then-- wardS found by' his Right'Hon. Friend's e.pi: - Itiation. Then the Hon. Giqitlernan 'came plump with, th question, was it or was it not intended to diminish the; Volunteers? The answer was, " Neither ;" bat a rdzii, lation of improvement was proposed, that fitly have sOmelittle erre& either way; it woul&not he 5t.'.C11 These re g ulations were highly gratifying to the Vo lunteets.The Hon. Gentleman was little aceoginted with the disposition of the Volunteers; if he con ceiVed them to look upon the grant - of Inspecting Field Officers as a boon; Or that it would cost them pang to part with those Officers. Most Certainly on o their Just institution there was every thing ;to commend in the zeal, alacrity, and attachment which they displayed for the defence of their :Conn, try, and be was inferior to no man in entertaining and expressing that commendation ; yet, he• did then say, as he would now say again, that perliais ail these generous ' sentiments .might .hate:" been ,di. re&ed into a more useful channel. , He never should deny that they were of great service to the Coun. try ; neither he nor his Hon. Friend had any notion of subverting that system ; their anxiety , was to improve it. As to the exaggerated representations that had been sent abroad; to throw odium on his Hon: Friend for his hostility to that system, nothing in general could be more groundless : his Hon. Friend had never said or done any thing in that re- speck which he a!so had hot said or done; and .he was therefore willing and_ ready to share all the coif sequentodium with him. , ,But whatever regarded this topic might as well be discnssed hereafter, and-be rejeete'd Or adopted as the House might fit ; the only question now was to repeal that Big : voting for its repeal, the House did slot pledge themselves - to the adoption of any one.of the Mea sures that might hereafter be proposed. The same - might be said of theprojeca of limited service, and all the other topics which it was .supposed.his Hon.. Friend's plan intended to embrace. _ He shouA `scarcely ailncle to all the - hard ..v.crsii; of which •sozpo Gentlemen bad been so prodigal on this occasion, _ . fantiful theories, wild speculations, Sc e; he - should only say , they 'level' had any died upon his mind ; and heWis sure they n&er would make any iw pression upon a mind like,that of his Hon. Friend. Much had'been said of the majority of Military Au-. thorities that were against the 'suppOsed plan of his' Hon. Friend; that plan mi\-, , ht divided•and sub-. divided info many branches. But •he thonghth6:: safely say, that upon all_ the more - material ... points of that plan the Authorities in favour of them would be found not less numerous and respe&able ; that Civil kuld Military Men would exert their best endeavOUrs, to perform their duty,„ and that thc Te- Sl.llt W 01.14 he trusted, appear - wise; just, ipti;lible, and -eligible; and in no way inconsistent with the' spirit o the Constitution , the discipline of the Army, or with any of the general principles with which it bad been, represented asTirrecbncileable. When it should be coolly considered in that light, he had . reason to hope that 'some of the - Gentlemen opposite to him - would be ashamed of the violent langwige and intemperate disapprobation with Which they had so prematurely attached it. . -Mr. KECK referred to the ntmlber of men Which 1 - 1(1 been raised by the Bill 'in Leicestershire; and 'argued from hence against its repeal. • 111 r. BABINGT6N and Sir EDWAIM HARTOP said a ;few word in explanation u, on the same topic. . Mr. J. FULLER spoke with his usual energy against . the Bill propOsed to be repealed.. Arr. -CANN/NG would trouble the House but'' - with a few words : he could not suffer the Debate' to go ''off on the grounds, laid doWn by the Right , Hon./Secretary (Mr. Fox). Such an assumption . must prove fatal to,every . measure that was not pro posed by Ministers : - for, it would appear, that howl ever comprehensive and complicated were. the plans which they might forward, it Would be still compe tent for the Right Hon. Secretary to prescribe what scope and circuit should be given to the arguments ' of those who should oppose them. If such deference ,was to be paid to Ministers, and no argument urged • against their measures but such as they should. 41- , :low of, it would be.in vain for any man to raise his voice against. their measures. The Right aoiL Secretary had treated their attempting to discuSs any part of the propixied system on the, present ques 7 , lion as no less ridiculous' than absurd, as if upon the opening of the Budget it bad been'argued, that (he terms of the 'Loan-were had, because the Tax, fix example, upon Iron, or the Tax upon Property, were l found . objedionable. But iti -- his mind there was a conside r 'Ole difference between the two cases, and Pa , the analo6 5 „ %failed not only in fact, but in arp.;timent.'' He was not a little surprised to obse,rve the narrow ground upon which the Right Hcra. Secretary:bad taken up the question—it was • nti`frovver certainly-' than he had ever known that RightHcati. Gentlettran to have argued any measure upon. He has SatisiSed, himself with resting the whole of his argument inior: a dry calculation, which, though it might be fount=. ed in fa.t, was yet not concrusive in argrutlient. Here Mr. OANNI proceeded to shew that the cal dilations - - of',Mr - ..Fox and Lord H. PETTY were materially_. erroneous, and that the Additional Force Ad 'had produced all the benefits that had been desdihod.. . . Several animated explanations here took place be- V~~ ~~ ~ \1 /