The Sun. — London, England, 1840-01-29 00:00:00

EVEN [NC EDITION. LAW INTELLIGENCE. EXCHEQUER CHAMBER, JAY. 28. CASES OF FROST, JONES, AND WILLIAMS. (Continued from our Paper of yesterday.) the A TTORNEY-GENERAL said he never could suppose a .The so ignorant of the law, but that would be no mis within Lrial. The laws presumes that Judges acting on matters their jurisdicton, would act according to law. Mould it not be a perversion of justice for a prisoner, after t }, rovving himself u p on hi s J ury , to b r i ng f orwar d as a 'substantive defence that the writs had not been properly delivered from some slight technical irregularity. If the objection were urged before pleading, no such public in eenven,ence would arise, as to the result of his being per 'flitted thus to turn a shield into a sword. How could it he said that any dangerous consequence would result from the Crown postponing trials unjustly, when on the habeas Corpus th e pr i soner might be discharged after the first and second assizes had past. And in the meantime the Atto rney -General, who should have so misconducted himself, might justly be dismissed upon irapeschmeut. The Learned Attorne General referred to Rix v. Ward, Sixth, Modern Reports, Y and Goddard and Smith, same Noluete. He argued that the inference was, that things to he done before trial, must be demanded before trial, and the objection must not be kept till after the trial has corn trieueed. If any burden of proof regarding the lists were cast ()tithe Crown, it could only be that to wh':eh he had already alluded; namely, that of merely identifying the list in which the names of the witnesses appeared with that sery ed on the parties. It would be enough to show that the. list in which the witnesses 'had appeared had been served on the prisoners; and the necessity would 'then be thrown of the prisoners to prove that there was some other list. He wished the Court would observe the consequences which would other. wise follow. If the Crown, at so late a stage, could be called on to prove the lists, the prisoners, by thus lying by, would entitle themselves to an acquittal, so that they could never again be tried by any of the forms directed by the Act of Parliament. If the prisoner in the case might object to the service not being simultaneous, he might equally object to one of tkie witnesses not being creciable. He might further make an objection thrown out by the Lord Chief Justice he might eemtend that though the three documents had been served si multaneously in the presence of two witnesses, the copy of the indictment was not a true copy, or that the list of the Jury was not a true list, and that it differed from the panel returned. These objections might have been made after t h e prisoners had seen what sort of a bashad bee n made out against them. Could that, ever, be consistent with the due administration of the law could a course be allowed which would inevitably lead to a perveteion of justice without any ad. vantag e to the prisoner, if he were an innocent man ? If ile were so, sufficient opportunities of defence would be af forded him without having recourse to such objections. If his Learned Friends had been right, it would follow that the service which had taken place would be a nullity. He would ask if that should be so, and if the proceedings should be in the same state as if no list had ever been served ? At this very Special Commission, after some little irre gularity at the commencerneot, the Court ruled that any objection to the witness must be taken before the witness was examined in chief; or it came too late. Now he was merely contending for applying that principle to the whole list; therefore, aecerding to all the principles and analogies of Engli s h l ave, he contended that this objection could riot be taken after the trial had commenced. He would wew briefly allude to the Scotch law ; and with the excepe.on of Hyatt 's case, all the precedents were in Ins favour, as all the objections had, with that exception, been wade bef ore th e p l ea di ng h a d commenced. (The arre e d Gentleman then read several cases from Scottish re po , is in support of his araument.) Besides, in Scotland Do ti' the list of witnesses and the list of Jurors were part of the Record ; and it was from the Record that the panel was bfr•r n i s h ed with them. He had now performed his duty. by onging f orwar d th ose aut h orities to show that the objec- n wa s invalid, and that it was brought forward ton late. The Learned Counsel for the prisoner was right in not bringing it forward earlier, because it could no t h ave b een done with the remotest chance of success. If it were al lowed it would have this consequence, that all sorts of frivolous objections might be brought forward after the i trial had begun, thus defeating the intentions of the Legis attn.% whien were that the innocent should be protected, a crid not that the guilty should escape. Sure he was, h o w_ eer, that wh a t ever d ec i sion their Lordships might come o, would be universally acquiesced in. Mr. KELLY next rose, and said he understood his Learned Friend, the Attorney-General, did not insist, as a point in favour of the Crown, upon any difference that existed between the cases of Frost and Williams before the Juey was.sworn, and the same observation applied to the Conversation which took place between Mr. Owen and the Solicitor for the prosecution after the Jury had been eworn. The question to be considered was not whether the departure from the forms laid down had been a mattee of prejudice or advantage to the prisoners, but whether the conditions pointed out by the Statute were obseeved and complied with. He recollected a case having been ruled by some of the Judges before him, in which a deviation from the forms of a contract had taken place at the request of one of the parties, nevertheless the Court held that though that deviation had taken place at the request of the party, it was no matter, as it was their business to learn whether this statute had been lite rally complied with, and they adjudicated accordingly. His Learned Friend had also said, that he did not seek for the striking out of one single word of the statute ; but the At torney-General, by his argument, clearly endeavoured t 0 strike out the word " with," and to have inserted 'n its ;teed the word " had." His Learned Friend t hen adverted to Lord George Gotdon'a case, but he (Ma's Kelly) cou ld not see f or what purpose as the court had at that time pronounced those words " at the same time with the copy of the indictment," therefore, thos e words seem of much importance, which his Learned Friend had net thought proper to explain. In the case of Douglas and Storry" it was held that if the enact ment were not literally complied with, there should be a nonsuit in the case. It had been alleged that under the Poor laws the Court were not called upon to pronounce opinions upon the statutes, but endeavour to act according to their view of what the Legislature intended ;: but he recollected Many of the Judges before him expressly declared in the judgement they gave, that they were well aware that. the Legislature had no idea of putting the con struction upon the statutes that they were obliged to do from the literal wording of the statute. His Learned Friend had again referred to Sir Robert Peel's Act. Their Lordships, however, would sec that that statute left entirely untouched the Act of Anne. That last Act required that the list of witnesses should be delivered at the same time as the indictment. According to Sir It. Peel's Act, also, the list of witnesses must, he deli vered at the same time, no matter whether it might be ten or twenty days before the trial. Whatever effect Peel's Act could have in the question would be entirely in favour of the prisoner; because it repealed the plain and emphatic words of the statute of Anne—" that the list of witnesses should be delivered at the same time with a copy of the indictment. This was all he had to say on the first point discussed by his Learned Friend the Attorney-General. His Learned Friend had proceeded to the second point, and he had said that the Counsel for the pri soners had felt that they were surrounded with difficulties, which they were unable to contend with. He ( Mr. Kelly) denied the assertion. The Counsel for the prisoners had called the attention of their Lordships to a statute—to a plaiu intelligible Act of Parliament, to the benefit of which their client were entitled. They threw on the Crown the burthen of showing that they had no claim to those be nefits. It was the business of the Crown to prove, eithe r by citing some high authority, or some strong eases of precedent, that the prisoners had in sonic way deprived themselves of the right they were entitled to. His Learned Friend had said that the Counsel for the prisoners had gone so far as to say that, by reason of the non-delivery of the lists according to the necessary forms, the defect was incurable, and that the whole proceedings were invalid. He also stated that they could have tak en th e i r o bj ect i on at once. He ( Mr. 5a Kelly, begged l eave to say i n reply, that they did not 3 7 it was a mis-trial—they did not say that by reason of certain forms not having been complied with, the pro ceedings were useless. That was not their argument— it was net necessary for them to contend for that position. What they contended for was a fair and true construction of the Act of Parliament, which said that no witnesses should be produced at the trial, of whose names, profes sions, and places of abode the prisoners had not had notice in the list delivered to them, according to the forms re quired by the statute. That being the ease, they said that the objection should be made whenever the Counsel for the Crown wished to produce a single witness, as refusing to plead admitted that he was guilty, he would give a right to the Crown to hold an indictment over him all his life. He said that such was the inevitable consequence. His Learned Friend must contend, that on the discovery of the non-delivery of the lists, the Court either orders the trial to proceed, or postpones it to the next assizes. In the first case, the Court deprives the prisoner of all the benefit intended for hint by the Act ; or the Court, of its own authority, without any application, puts cfr the trial, and keeps the prisoner in prison, and this might happen in a case where the Crown wilfully Omitted to deliver the lists for the purpose of taking undue advantage of the prisoner. The question, therefore, was, whether their Lordships could put a construction upon this Act of Parliament which would confer such a tremendous Power upon the'Crown. Mr. Baron PARSE-The same thing would happen from the non-delivery of the copy of the indictment. Mr. KELL? respectfully differed from his Lordship ; he had never contended any such thing. Mr. Baron PARKA-But the authorities quoted went to that. There was Rookwood's case which seemed to go on all fours with the present. Mr. KELLY said Rookwood's ease was under the statut e of William. Now the statute of Anne was intended to confer an additional benefit on the prisoner, and therefore Must be construed liberally. Besides, that was only look ing to the consequences of decision : what he contended for was, that the construction of the Attorney-General gave the Crown the powct of keeping a man in prison an indefinite time, with au indictment hanging over his head, and of forcing the Court to postpone the trial not only without cause, but by its own default. The only answer given to this argument was, that if an Attorney-General were to do this he would be impeached. What consolation was that to the prisoner ? and there was nothing in the statute to show that there was nothing lot the P ri soner to depe n d on b u t the chance cf a impeachment of the Attorney-General. The Court would make an order, it was said, on the public prosecu tion to deliver these lists. On whose application ? or on "hrwn was such an order made in a case in which the Sovereign is prosecutor? Ile would say, therefore, that the' statute showed that it was to the Crown the subject hada right to look for the protection the statute intended. He, therefore, denied the power of any Court to make such an order. It was remarkable that according to his Learned Friend's argument this objection must be made at a time w hin a prisoner had no counsel, and this was the case with regard to Williams and Jones, who had not had couns e l assigned to them until long after they had Pleaded. He contended the objection was properly made when a witness was put into the box of whom they had not had due notice according to the statute, and in this he was borne out not only by argument and common sense, but by precedent also The case of the King and Ward was decisive of this point. The fair way of construing the statute was in the same way as a Judge's order to admit certain particulars of set off in evidence, which was that nothing shoull he admitted that was not in the order ; and the c ffeet of the non- com pliance with the order, or a defective delivery would be, that not one of the particulars would be permitted to be given in evidence, and could they give a less strict construction to an Act of Parliament in a case of high treason than to a Judge's order in a civil suit ? With regard to the refe rences to Scotch Law, every case went . to show that at acme period or other the objections might be made ; the cases quoted by the Attorney-General merely went to show that the objection might be made before the jury were sworn, and no more, while Ilyatt's ease was a case in point. Under these circumstances, considering their Lm d sbips were called on to lay down a rule which would be binding in all times to come, they could not home to a decision which would give the Crown great powers of oppression, but would extend to the prisoners the full be nefit of the statute, and recommend them to the mercy of the Crown Sir WILLIAM FOLLETT would not take up the time of the Court at any great length with his reply. With regard to the first point, he should make no further observation on it. With regard to the second, his Learned Friend had not met this argument boldly. Instead of stating the precise time when the objection should be made, he had contented himself with simply saying that it was not the time. Who was to decide, suppose it bad been denied that the list had been delivered by the one side, and con tended that it had been by the other? He would contend, then, the party could not be called upon before pleading to put the Crown to prove that such lists had been delivered. How was a Jury to be iinpanelled to try that fact; and that was his argument to show that that was not the time for making this objection. Alt hough a party, by pleading, might waive an objection to the copy of the indictment, the same rule did not apply to the list of witnesses. The Attorney-General had not met the objection that this weuld place that power in the hands of the Crown, which was intended for the benefit of the prisoner. Besides, how could the Court make an or der on the Attorney. General ? Lord ABINGEIt said that there had been a rule in the King's Bench, calling on the Attorney-General to show cause why there should not be a trial at bar, and so he.could be called on here, and Hite did not show Cause, the prisoner would be put upon his trial, and acquitted before a common panel. _ _ _ Sir W. Fot.t.F.TTL—That was exactly what he contended for. The result would be the compelling the party to plead, re fusing to hear the witnesses, and the prisoner would be acquitted,which was exactlywhat he was now contending for. The Act of Parliament was passed for the purpose of com pelling the Attorney-General to bring on prosecutions within a certain time. Under that Act the party would be right in case the trial was delayed to serve a rule on the Attorney-General. lie would say one word with respect to the omission which had taken place in bringing forward the objection at an earlier period. There was, he thought, no other time at which it could be made, but the one that:had been chosen. (The Learned Gentleman then proceeded to read a passage from a judgment of Lord Tenterden in support of his argument. One thing was clear, that any objection of this sort ought to be known to the Crown, and the Crown ought to apply to the Court to postpone the trial. If the Crown did not do so, but at tempted to justify, they ought to abide by the conse quences. He submitted to their Lordships that this was the right construction of the Act, and the only way of en forcing the Crown to a compliance with the provisions of the Act of Parliament. It was upon this bread principle that he contended. If it were a substantial enactment it must be complied with ; and, if it were not complied with : the prisoner was entitled to the benefit of it. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, always understood that when a Jury was once sworn the prisoner stood upon his deli very, and must be pronounced guilty or no: guilty, and therefore, he apprehended that the Jury could not be dis— charged and another impanelled. This concluded the arguments in this case, and their Lordships retired at four o'clock. SPIRIT of the PUBLIC JOURNALS. FROM THE DAILY PAPERS OF YESTERDAY. (From the Globe.) The economy-loving part of the public will see from last night's vote the advantage of keeping the Tories where they are —in the Opposition. Was that " great national party" ever known, when in power, to vote, in temporary union with Libe rals, for reduction of Royal incomes ? Would that " great national party," had it got into power last May, have proposed less than 50,0001. for the Royal Consort? The arithmetical advantage derived to public economy from their present position must be clear to every eye, without consulting Cocker. They arc the largest body in Parliament arrayed distinctly under one banner. If they all at once adopt as their watchword Mr. Hood's chorus, in his " Up the Rhine.—" Take care of your pockets, take care of your pockets,"—the effect of Tory-reformed action upon pub lic expenditure will be new indeed. It will be not amongst the least of the speciosa nuracula of Reform in Parliament. (Prom the Standard.) We have reason to believe that up to yesterday evening Ministers had resolved that upon the occa sion of her Majesty's marriage no new Peers should be created, and that the usual promotions in the army and navy consequent upon such a❑ event should not take place. The reasons assigned for this extraordinary course of proceeding are, - first, that the vacancies which must arise in the House of Comons, in consequence of several Members being raised to the Peerage, would, in all probabitty, prevent Ministers from continuing office, without dissolv ing Parliament ; and secondly, that in the present state of the revenue the country cannot afford the expense which must be incurred by a large brevet promotion. Whether the vote of last night may alter the intentions of Government we know not ; but it is really intolera ble that Ministers should have the audacity to propose a grant of money for the Queen's husband which is un necessary and extravagant, and yet attempt to deprive the army and navy of their just rights, upon the plea that the country is too poor to reward its hard-worked and ill-paid servants. THE WEATHER. On Sunday we were visited by as heavy a gale of wind from \V. N. W., accompanied by deluging showers, as we have experkneed for some months past. The weather on Monday was somewhat windy, but dry and beautiful. The country papers give accounts of the effect of the hurricane in their respective localities, but the mischief appears to have been but trifling in most places. The mails in many instances have been delayed, and much inconvenience has been the result. The communications between England and Ireland continues interrupted by the stormy state of the weather. During the boisterous weather on Tuesday bight last, a publican, at Bewdley, of the name of Tudor, was, it is supposed, blown into the river Severn. Ills body was found it. the river. Wi ll ie Ks ._W e give the following accounts from the Cambrian of Swansea :—Oii Wednesday morning, a schooner was wrecked near the llolmes on the Llangenith Sands, and all hands perished. It is said that there Were five persons on board. Another vessel, in ballast, was driven on shore on the Llanmadock Sands, but we are happy to say that the crew were saved, and the vessel is likely to be got off.—The Thistle, Jenkins, from Demerara, bound for Greenock, put into Peaarth Roads on Monday night, having been driven up the Bristol Channel during the gale ; mate washed overboard, and most of the crew seriously injured. Our Milford Correspondent writes— " The shipping here generally rode out the gale well. The Magnet, Evans, from Llanelly, lost her bowsprit, having been in contact with the Perthshire, from Bangor for Ips wich. The George the Fourth, Gates, from Llanelly to Waterford, being aground off Hakin Point during the gale, with her broadside to the sea, she became leaky.— At one the brig Ann of Sunderland, Nixon, master, fro 'n Gloucester for Leghorn, in ballast, was driven on shore at the north-west end of Ncwgale Sands, in St. Bride's Bay, near the bridge, and become a total wreck. When she was broadside to, the crew were enabled to get into the boat under the lee of the vessel, and got safe on shore with loss of all their clothes. The Ann was a new vessel, about 278 tons register ; she saw a schooner deeply laden, with bulwarks on larboard side gone and boat stove on deck, in great distress. Captain Nixon thinks she must have foundcred.—The Indiana, Riskity, f►om Calcutta for Liverpool, laden with sugar, came on shore this (Thursday) morning at Fresh Water West Bay, to the southward of this harbour, at seven A. it. Crew saved, main and wizen mast gone, and bedded in sand.—llope, Tucker, from Liverpool for Swansea, put in here, with loss of fore•yard, and lost a boy overboard, named George Jeffreys, of Northampton, shipped at Liverpool—parents not known." The brig Jemima Sophia, of Hartlepool, Thomas Hind mach, commander, laden with deal from Qubec to London, on the 25th of December la.t, whilst lying to in longitude 36 and latitude 26, under close reefed main topsail, was struck by a heavy sea, which swept overboard the chief mate and one seaman, and cleared the deck of the boats, bowsprit, formast, and main-topmast. 7he ship lay on her broadside until she filled with water. The crew consisted of nine men, five of whom re mained below until the vessel filled ; two had gained the deck shortly after she was struck, and one was drowned in the cabin, the sea then making a complete breach over her. The survivors, some nearly naked, clung to the shrouds, and remained on the wreck without sub sistence for eleven days, when they were fortunately picked up by the John and Mary, of Blythe, Cap tain Stephenson, bound to Neath, laden with timber for Messrs. Walters and Llewellyn, by whom they were treated with the greatest kindness, and landed at Swansea on Sun day last. Immediately on their arrival, three of the suf ferers were admitted into the Infirmary, the captain and one seaman having b een su severely frost-bitten, th a t th e toes, and in the case of the seaman, a considerable portion of the foot are sl oug hi ng o ff . W e are happy to state that there is every prospect of their recovery. great Admiral Tath d a is ng te7ll,l ( ° lie l d at t: l l V is g s a ea : t n , e H d or t n i b le y Castle, near Friday. He was in of his 84th year. He ‘vill c i a ., u an se cas s t o er l , on o has let the liornby estates, the subject of onlycontention for twelve years, to l'udsey Dawson, Esq. Itin August, 1838, he made his triumphant entry on his estates ~oi nc sr t ro a f y el d into a TWEXTY-SIX SHEEP WoRHIED Lately two of Langton, got and dogs of Mr. Ord, neighbouring field and worried the above had they not been detected in the work of slaughter, sl7l), - in all probability have destroyed the whole of a large " fr e ld which were in the field. Some of the mutton was b s e old u in Harborough market, on Tuesday, at 4d per pound.—Leicester shire Mercury. T 1! : - :TTN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, J NUARY 29 1-40, IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, JAN. 29, The Lora) C►IANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool sack at the usual hour. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid upon the table die minutes of the Priv , Council relating to education. Lord REDESD ALE presented a petition from York shire, against any alteration in the York . The Marquis of NORMAN BY laid upon the table pa pers relating to the expenditure of all monies for the Duolin Metropolitan Police. Lord COLCHESTER gave notice of his intention to move for certain returns relating to the state of the Navy, vn the 4.11 of Februar3 next, being a continuation of those of last year. The House then adjourned until Friday next. HOUSE OF COMM ON,i J.JAN 3 S. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four ►'Clock. M Muniz, the new Member tor Birtningnam in the room of Mr. I'. Attwood, and Mr. Hutchins, the new Member for Falmouth and Penryn, in the room of the present Baron Rolfe, took the oaths and their seats. Papers acre presented from the imperial Gas Com pany, and from the Commissioners of Northern Lights. Mr. G. BERKELEY presented a petition from the Dean Forest Railway Company, praying for leave to bring in a Bill. Mr. BA INES presented a petition from the Northern Silk Company, praying for leave to bring in a Bill. Mr. ALSTON presented three petitions from parishes in Hereford, praying for leave to bring in Inclosure Mr. Alderman THOMSON presented a petition from Sunderland, praying for leave to bring in a - 13111 to regu late the Trade and Shipping on the River Wear. Mr. A CLA ND presented a petition from Titchenfield, in the county of Essex, praying for the withdrawal of the grant to Maynooth College. Mr. BAINES presented a petition from Great Dun more, in the county of Essex, praying for the abolition of Church-rates, and the release of John Thorogood ; also petition from a gentleman named Richard Allen, praying Government not to go to war to support the opium trade. Sir GEO. ST RIC KLAND presented a petition from a parish in the West Riding of Yorkshire, praying for the repeal of the Corn-laws. Lord POWERSCOURT presented a petition from Bath, praying for Church extension. Mr. O'CONNELL presented petitions from places in the counties of Down, Tyrone, Galway, and London derry, complaining of the restrictive nature of franchise in Irelnd, and praying for protection for Irish interests, in consequence of the tranquillity of that country, during the disturbed state of England. JAMAICA. In r.n3wer to Mr. PEASE, J. RUSSELL sxid he 11113 not Rwarc that the Stipcildlary Mag'straes h been irevcw.cd from icnding in their usual periodical reports. and, therefore, he hoped the House would excuse him if I he seized the present opportunity to state something as to the nature of those outrages which he had unfortu ' nately witnessed. On former occasions there had been known in this country tumultuous meetings, outrages, and breaches of the peace on the part of the labouring population ; but these had generally happened when seam of the staple manufactures .of the country were in a state of depression, and some considerable portion of the labouring population were in consequence turned out of employ, and forced to undergo the sufferings necessarily entailed upon them by want and wretchedness. There have been at other times a scarcity of provisions, and a want of employment, but no such state of things ex isted at this present time; there was also a peculiarity in the character of those outrages, which rendered them peculiarly alarming. Instead of a want of employ ment, the demand for labour, actually exceeded the supply, and wages got up to an unusual height —( Hear, hear.) To what cause then were those outrages to be at tributed. He had no hesitation in saying that those out ragas were occasioned for political purposes.—( Hear.) He hesitated not to say that he attributed them to that continuous temporising system pursued by her Majesty's Government, with reference to the institutions of the country, and also to that continuous meddling with every subject connected with their social system--( Hear, hear) —wherein they bad shown that they had no respect for the establishments of the country, nor respect for that authority which ought to exist throughout the kingdom. In admitting. these facts, be should agree in opinion with the Hoe. Baronet who last addressed the House, wherein he had justly said that there was every encouragement given to the people to assemble in large bodies, and to form themselves into unions—( Hear, hear, hear) which were calculated to produce a great tendency to dis content and disobedience to the law. They had heard of those meetings which were of frequent ocourrcnce of late ; an array of force had been very lately set into action which by its appearance would have rendered it diffi cult for the authoi'ities to put it down ; this state of things justified him in saying, that while they possessed a Go vernment., yet it bad no authority to govern.—(Cheers.) The Government did not possess that moral influence over the country, which it should possess.—( Hear, hear.) He would allude, in confirmation of what he had stated, to the circumstances which had attended the attack on the town of Newport. From personal examination, be could state that the tumultuous mob had entertained the most dangerous views—subversive of the constitution of that House, re turning their own (Urea representatives, end with a view to the distribution of property. And who was the leader of that mob? Wby J din Frost, who had received the honour of a M aeistracy ft om a Noble Lord (J. Russell.) No doubt the Noble Lord would say that the moment he found out that this man was of such a character he dismissed him from the office of M agistrate. But that was no sufficient excuse. For at the time he received the appointment he was notoriously embarked in all kinds of political ex. m . tement, attending tumultuous meetings, end exciting the passions of the people against the laws and the institutions of the country.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He should say that the circumstance of the appointment of that indi vidual to the dignity and station of a Magistrate bad given him an influence over the minds of the people which he otherwise would net have had. He-should observe that it was a most fortunate circumstance—that it was one of the most tempestuous nights which were ever witnessed that was appointed for the meeting of the insurgents. He believed that were it otherwise, instead of 5,000 or 6.000 people, four times that number would have assembled. The Noble Lord might also say that he had adopt ed the recommendation of certain inhabitants of Newport on the occasion. He begged, however, to observe, that that was no sufficient apology for the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord was warned, and warned in time. By whom was that warning given ? Not by an individual of differ ent politics from the Noble Lord—not by an individual who might have been actuated by prejudices on the occa sion—but by a most honourable and respectable individual, who entertained the same political views with himself. But, lest there should have been any mistake on the sub ject, that individual had stated facts and circumstances, the truth of which the Noble Lord had an opportunity of li ascertaining, by referring to documents in his own pos session.—( Hear, bear.) He would forbear to mention particularly what those facts and circumstances were, from a consideration of the unhappy condition in which the party was now placed. The Noble Lord had been followed in his office at the time of those outrages by the Marqui s o f N orman by ; an d b e wou ld now draw the attention of the House to extracts from a . letter which th a t N o bl e L or d h a d a dd resse d to t h e Ma gistrates of Newpo r t, w h o h a d b een engage d i n t h e exa mination of the leading parties concerned in that rebellion and in those treasonable proceeding s. lie believed it was an unusual ci rcumstance for her Majesty to convey her thanks to Magistrates for having done their duty, but these being conside re d extraordinary circumstances, and great fatigue h a vi ng b een undergone by the Magis trates, i Lord Normanby, under th e d ate o f the 9th of Nov ember, wrote to the followin g e ff ect to the Magistrates at Newp ort . • The Q ueen i s p l ease d to command me to express her ap proval of your cond uc t an d t h at of the Magistrates acting with you on the occasion of the outrage recently committed at Newport." Now would the House believe that three days previous to the letter the Magistrates had actually committed several individuals on the charge of high treason and rebellion, and several other individuals were under examination upon similar charges ? Why, he would ask, did rot the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department desig nate things by their right names s—( Cheers from the Ministerial side or the house.) Why did they call trea. son and rebellion outrage ?—(Laughter.) It was true that high treason and rebellion were outrages, but every outrage was not high treason or rebellion. Here he might take leave to mention a very extraordinary coin cidence with respect to the Attorney-General, whom he was happy to see was doing him the honour of paying at tention to his observations. He found that Honourable and Learned Gentlen.an, within a few days of this rebel lion, congratulating himself before his constituents at Edinburgh on having put down Chartism without shed ding blood. What a lamentable state of ignorance did this display of the state of feeling existing in the country. That speech must o f necessity, coming from such high authority have lulled into a state of false security those who had been acting in the suppression of Chartism, while on the other hand it was a decided encouragement to the Chartists to pursue their secret and illegal proceeding,. It had been asked what remedy was there to be found for these grievances. His belief was that the only remedy that could be found was in having the Government in the hands of men of firmness, prudence, and wisdom, qualities which be bad never found, and never expected to find, in those who had now the management of the country...._( Hear, hear, hear.) He would now direct a few observations to the letter of Lord Normanby, and as it seemed to be the opinion of Hon. Members on the other side, that the term outrage as applied to that affair was a proper one, he would remind the House, that on that occasion twenty-six individuals lost their lives, in addition to a large number of others who were seriously wounded. He would also say, that that unfortunate dis content did not, exist only in the provinces, but it existed also in the metropolis, for within the last week they bad found the military under arms during the night—the police force increased, and a general alarm prevailing among those who were charged with the care of the soerchandise which was deposited in the metropolis.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the financial state of the country, he thought it was anything but satisfactory. They had recently seen published under the bands of the Lords of her Mai .:sty's Treasury, a certificate to the Com miasioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, de cla-ing that for the year ending the s:h January last, there was a deficiency of nearly one million sterling, or, in other words, that there had been an expenditure of nearly one million exceeding the income.—( Hear.) They must take into consideration that since that period the new arrangements of the Post-office had come into operation, and those who took the most sanguine and most favour able view of that affair had come to the conclusion that it will be at least a loss of one million to the revenue. But that was not all—their trade with China was at that time put a stop to, and from that country alone they imported an article which yielded three millions and a half to the revenue. And here he would allude to what had been mentioned wi•h regard to the claims on the British Government. Claims had been made on the representative of her Majesty at Canton, to whom goods had been delivered to to the extent of more than three millions. Against that certificates of claims and bills of exchange had been drawn on her Majesty's Treasury. He ( Mr. Alderman Thome 'son) knew not what the legal position of the claims might be, but, as a commercial man, he should say that when an acknowledged agent purchased and received goods of a principal, and gives a certificate or bill of exchange, he should certainly say that the principal was answerable for that certificate. The question he would not enter into, as from its importance it would be sure to occupy public attention. As regarded the other side of the question of finances, he had been told that there would, in all pro bability, be a deficiency of eight railliona. He asked whether there were any circumstances that might lead them to expect a diminution of expenditure ?—(Hear.) As regarded the sate of their foreign relations, were they such as would enable the House to reduce either the Army or Navy? He thought they were not. For a period of three years in succession there had been, year after year, an expenditure exceeding the income. Ile asked whe ther there was such a precedent in the whole history of this country? The only instance that he could find was in the time of Sir Robert Walpole. Si; R. Walpole had re sisted the resolution, that the supplies for the year should be raised withi n th e y ear . N ow , w h at was the conse quence? That which was likely to be the result now— that the country was involved in war when it was least pre pared.--( Hear, hear.) During the last twelvemonths Exchequer Bills had been at a discount. Was this a state of things hollow able to the country ?—( Hear, bear.) The Honourable Baronet, the mover of the resolution, had alluded to the Comptrollership of the Exchequer. He ( Mr. Alderman Thompson) would allude to an other appointment yet more objectionable, the Governorship of Greenwich Hospital.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") That was an office which had usually been filled by an Admiral, who had performed good service for his country— who " for a fifty years had braved tha battle and the breeze."—( Cheers.) Was Admiral Fleming the fit suc cessor of the gallant Hardy ? No.—( Cheers.) The ap pointment had now, for the first time, been made for political ends.—(Cheers.) He said nothing against the personal , character—he spoke only of the standing in the Navy, o f the gallant O ffi cer. Then as to the state of our relat ions in Soeth America. He believed that that discussion con tributed in a great degree towards the raising of the block ade. But in what state was our trade with the Ri ver if Plate ? The House ought to be aware, it was not, that for the last two years our commerce had been completely shut out from Buenos Ayres. The French Government had blockaded the ports—they . had landed t roops and taken part with some of the f actions which raged in that country fur the purpose, no doubt, of establishing their own authority there. It WAS known that al rea d y a Com missioner had gone out, appointed to arrange the ternis upon which those States were to come under their protec tion. He would contend that the French had not acted with impartiality there , even were they right. Two Ante rican . ships forced them selves in y unload e d an d re loaded, but were seized coming out, but on being de- HIGH TREASON. Mr. WAKLE Y rose to present a petition signed by forty inhabitant householders of the Metropolis, whom he knew to be respectable and influential persons, and who lm d been formed into a Committee last ❑ight, for the purpose set forth in the petition. The petiton prayed that that House would join in the recommends till. of mercy to the prisoners now under sentence of death at Monmouth , viz. Frost, Williams, and Jones. The petitioners stated, that if Government did not listen to the recommendation ofJurics, such indifference would be calculated to destroy it in public opinion. The petitioners also stated that they had heard with deep regret arid alarm that preparations were making for the exe cution of those unfortunate men at the very moment when their case was under the consideration of the Judges. The petition was most respectfully worded, and strongly deprecated the practice of capital punishments. Ile thought the manner in which the prosecutions had been conducted reflected great credit on the Government. —(lronical cheers, and laughter from the Opposition.) The people out of doors would learn with astonishment that he was interrupted by Gentlemen opposite in pleading for the lives of his fellow.subjects.—(" No, no," from the Opposition. ) Sir IZ. INGLIS said he rose to order—not because the Hon. Member was pleading for the lives of three of his fellow-iubjects, but because in so doing he endea voured to make a speech in defence of her Majesty'. Go vernment.—( Hear. hear, from the Opposition. ) Mr. WA KLE Y had no doubt that it wai displeasing to Gentlemen opposite to hear any commendations of the Government. Sir E. KNATCEIBULL rose to order. The SPE A K E R—This petition certainly, I think, comes under the rule that admits of a Member saying more upon it than in an ordinary case, for it is a case of urgent necessity—(Hear,)—at the same time the Hon. Member should strictly confine himself within the range of his petitio❑ —( Hear, hear.) Mr. WAKLE Y said, in stating that the condnct of the Government had been fair and honourable in these prose cutions, he thought he was saying that which would not injure the case of the prisoners. He would not enter into a discussion of any of the circumstances connected with their case. He would merely say that it was his duty to present petitions to the House, and he hoped that in so doing he had not uttered any disorderly expression— nothing was further from his intention. He did not at present intend to found any .motion on the prayer of the petition—he was content to leave the case at present in the hands of the Government, believing that they would pursue that course which they had already pursued, and which, in his opinion, was consistent with humanity and jumiee. Lord J. RUSSELL presented a petition from the Liverpool Medical and Surgical Association, in favour of Medical Reform. Mr. HANDLEY gave notice that on the 18th of February he would move for leave to bring in a 13111 to facilitate the draining of land in England and Wales. CASE OF JOE-IN THOROGOOD. The HON. MEMBER then gave notice,' on behalf of the Honourable Member for Finsbury, that he would postpone his motion for calling the retention of the House to the case of John Thorogood to the 1 Rh of February. PRIVILEGES OF PARLIAMENT.—STOCK DALE v. HANSARD. Sir E. SUGDEN gave notice that tomorrow he should move that the Messrs. Hansard be at liberty to de fend the action brougot against them by Stockdale. Lord J. RUSSELL did not know that the Right Hon. Gentleman meant that his motion should take precedence, or whether in the event of the debate of that night being adjourned that it should be allowed to go on. Sir E. SUGDEN thought the motion should not in terfere with the important question which was likely to occupy the attention of the House. but h e wou ld t a k e th e earliest opportunity of bringing it forward. Mr. FECTOR, on behalf of the Hon. Member for Ipswich, postponed the motion of which he had given notice for leave to bring in a Bill to define the qualification of electors in municipal boroughs till the 11th of February. THE TREATY OF BERGARA. Mr. FECTOR seeing the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Foreign Department in his place, wished to know whether her Majesty's Government, or any other person acting under their authority, t Jolt any part in the negociations of Bergara ? He wished also to know whether Government, directly or indirectly, sanctioned the detention of the Princes of the Royal Family of Spain. Lord PA LMERSTON said that strictly speaking her Majesty's agents in Spain had not directly taken any part in th a negociations of Bergara, as those negociations were conducted by the Carlist Chiefs on the one hand and the officers of the Queen of Spain on the other ; but her Majesty's officers, military and naval, stationed on the North Coast of Spain, did render their assistance, and bring about that communication between the Carlist Chiefs and the officers of the Queen of Spain, which led to the Convention that had been referred to by the lion. Mem ber. The Convention itself was a purely Spanish transaction, carried'on between two Spanish parties, without the direc tion or interference of any foreign power whatsoever.— ( Cheers ) With regard to the second question, he should say, that the officers of her Majesty stationed on the coast of Spain would, under similar circumstances, pursue a similar course--(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) With regard to the third question, her Majesty's Govern ment had undoubtedly expressed a strong opinion that it would not be consistent with the general interests of the P .wers who had been parties to the Quadruple Treaty if Don Carlos were left at liberty to return to Spain until some arrangement had been entered into between him and the Spanish Government.—( Cheers. ) CHINA. Mr. MACLEAN said that in reference to the present misunder:tanding with China, and to the interruption of the opium trade, he wished to ask the Noble Lord whether any notice had been issued by Capt. Elliot, the British Superintendent at Canton, to the following effect : —" Demanding the delivery of opium by all persons holding it into the hands of the British Superintendent without de lay, in order that the same might be delivered into the hands of the Chinese Government, and he (the Superin tendent) would hold her Majesty's Government re sponsible to all holders of British grown opium, pro vided the same were delivered into his hands be fere six o'clock oa the evening of that day, otherwise he declared her Britannic Majesty's Government wholly free from all responsibility respecting such British-grown opium." Ile wished to know if that was a correct abstract from any document issued by Captain Elliot. Lord PALMERSTON said, that as far as his recol lection served him, the extract was substantially correct but, in consequence of his Noble Friend's mot;on last night, all these papers would be produced. Mr. M ACLE AN said, that after that, he wished to know if Captain Elliot had not, in consequence, issued certi ficates on the British Government; and he also wished to know if an answer of the followitl, description had been returned to the person presenting those certificates : " That having laid before the Lords Commissioners the letter, and transmitted the certificates, he had received their Lordships' commands to acquaint them that Parlia ment had placed no funds at their disposal to meet such certificates ; and, to prevent any misconstruc tion, their Lordships' directed him to say, that it would be made the subject of consideration by her Majesty's Go vernment, but that they did not propose to submit a vote for the payment of such claims." He (Mr. Maclean) wished to ask the Noble Lord whether it was the intention of Go vernment to act upon that letter, signed "Robert Gordon," and sent from the Treasury, with regard to those claims, and whether it was their intention to repudiate or support the course taken by Captain Elliot on the subject ? Lord PALMERSTON said it was undoubtedly the in tention of her Majesty's Government to act in accordance to the letter read, but as to what was their intention or. other matters he was sure the House would at present excuse him from stating. Mr. MACLEAN then gave notice that he should call the attention of the Howie to the subject. BRITISH CLAIMANTS ON PORTUGAL. Lord PALMERSTON, in answer to a question from Viscount Sandon, said the Portuguese Government ap peared to manifest every desire to satisfy the British claims. And that he had instructed her Majesty's Minister at Lisbon on the subject. CHINA. In answer to Mr. ELLTS.. more pape rs respect - Lord PALMERSTON said it Wo u ld not be in his P in ° g ". C Y h t i o na la t 3 h ' a b n e t r b o o re se th m e os i,l e ° d u' f ( C)r ai b ly y the Hon. Membe for Loudon, Mr. Cray: fort. SPAIN. Mr. MACLEAN put a question which was quite inau dible, but from the answer of Lord Palmerston we gathered that ro measures had yet been taken to secure pay mc , tit by the Spanish Government of the debt. dun to this country. VOTE OF CONFIDENCE. The SPEAKER having called upon Sir JOHN YA RDE BULLER, the Hon. Baronet rose, and amidst loud cries of " Order," which evinced the anxiety of a very full House to hear his statements, he commenced by saying—that when he considered the im portance of the motion which he rose to bring forward, be feared that it would be thought presumptuous, on the part of one who so seldom addressed the House, to undertake s o seri eis a responsibility. And he begged the House to hear the one or two reasons which he had to offer for his having undertaken the task, ha believed, in the discharge of his duty.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") That there was a great deal of discontent and dissatisfac tion in the country was unhappily so notorious that it needed no comment.—(Hear.) In ordinary cases it might, be thought that this discontent arose from causes over which the Government had no control ; but no one, looking at the present aspect of affairs, could fail to see that it originated in the system pu , sued by bar Majesty's Ministers for the last few years in attempting to carry their measures by forcing them on the people, rather than by submitting them .0 cool discussion. —(Loud cheers.) Disturbances had thus originated, and gone so far that it was almost beyond the power of the Government to put them down.—( Cheers. ) Il in the House any right to expect Ministers would thus act ? and ought they not rather expect to find them acting the part of ministers of peace, curbing the wills of un ruly men, rather than exciting them to acts of vio lence ?—( Loud cheers.) If Government bad not fol lowed that course, they would not have found armed masses of the people marching on Newport, headed by a magistrate, indebted for his appointment to her Majesty's Ministers—( Loud cheers.) But those Ministers had not been found applying their attention to the fact of the Hon. Member for Dublin being the guest of the Viceroy of Ireland as a consequence of his infl mmmatory harangues. They had not been found directing their attention to that speech wherein that Hon. Member stated his readiness again to agitate the repeal of the Union on the earliest opportunity; but if he mistook not, some of those Ministers ha .I a part in framing the very speech from the Throne, in which the Honourable Member had been denounced. thought the connection between Ministers and the in struments of agitation was not likely to recommend them to the confidence, of that House.—(Cheers.) In the next place, he thought that their apparent union with those who upon all occasions brought forward some species of attacks upon the Established Church, was a cir cumstance which would withdraw from them the confidence of all Churchmen, and likewise those who, not belonging to the Church,felt that it was for the benefit of the country that in Established Church should be maintained. The Govern ment was led on in these views by persona who were in favour of a voluntary as stem, by which the Church would b, separated from the State, and maintained by the volun tary contributions of its members. Lcd on in that way, they brought forward a measure to do away with the fund by which the fabric of the Church, had been repaired by a great length of time. They offered first as an equivalent that which no one could complain of—viz., a sum out of the Consolidated Fund, but as that would not suit the views of those who thought that the Church ought to be separated from the State, they were obliged to abandon it. They then brought forward another measure more likely to suit the views of those who advocated the sepa ration of the Church from the State, but it. was one in which the country at large was not in clined to concur. They proposed to seize upon the lands belonging to the Bishops, and by some improved system of management to create a surplus which was not in existence before, which they hoped to appropriate to keep ing- up the fabric of the Church. The next question which they took up was that of education. They withdrew the grant which they had formerly given to two societies, by which persons of all religious denominations were enabled to receive a religious education, and by which the Clergy of the diocese were enabled to afford education to all be longing to their flocks. Th a t pl an seeme d to h ave b een working well. It gave the clergy a power over their flocks, and enabled them to educate all those who came to these schools in the religious doctrines of the Church of England, but for some cause that did not meet the views of those d•ffering from the Established Church, and the Government was pressed to introduce anothcr measure, which was carried in that House by a majority— a very small one indeed—of only two.—( Hear, hear.) This system excluded the clergy from the superintendence of the schools, or only admitted them to give religious in struction at hours when the pupils were taking relaxation. This regulation rendered it impossible for the Church — he would say, almost impossible for the Church—to accept cf their demands.—(Bear, hear, hear.) They , could not help regarding this as one of the attacks against the Church, by detaching the people from it, and bringing them up in ignorance of its doctrines. When Ministers took office, they came into power professing to carry on the Government without the aid of patronage. They held up to disrepute the acts of the former Govern ment, as being extravagant and corrupt. They agreed that 1,2001. only should be placed at the disposal of the Queen, for granting pensions to those of her subjects who deserved them, whether for improvements in art, or disco veries in science. Professing that principle, they had en croached more on the patronage of various departments than any Government that had preceded them.—( Cheers. ) A large pension had been granted to a gentleman who had retired from a sinecure office to make way for the late Chancellor of the Exchequer.—( Cheers from the Oppo sition benches.) Another ground of complaint against the Ministers was the uncertainty attending all their plans,for last Ssssion they had heard the Noble Lord opposite arguing and voting against the proposition of the Hon. Member for London, when that Hon. Gentleman proposed to intro_ duce Vote by Ballot. He found him replying to the argument of the Hon. Member for Edinburgh, regretting that he should hold such opinions, and not take more time to consider.—(Hear, hear.) What was now the situation of the Noble Lord—( Hear) —still holding, h e believed, the same opinions upon that subject? Why, he had admitted into his Cabinet the Honourable Member for Edinburgh as Secretary at War, and still the advocate of the Ballot.—(Cheers from both sides of the House.) Pursuing the same line of uncertain conduct the Govern ment would never let the landed interest know what their intentions were with regard to protection to agriculture. It was true the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern- Inent had declared that to take away all protection from agriculture would be the greatest madness in the world, but when they found that in that House the Members of her Majesty's Government, on the bringing i t c . s o r o r o:U n a g:l i t d a t w o s f , forward those eit he r annual o v r et ed the m e alteration nh which h o r t wererepeal other,generallyof t t h l e e ne landed interest were certainly led to feel that there was no security for the protection of agriculture to be expected from the Government. If the Administration wished to have time confidence of the country and of the landed interest, they must take a more decided course vtth regard to this important question—they must say whether they would or would not support the Ballot— they must declare whether they would or would not give protection to agriculture. There was at this time a society growing up in this country under the name of Rational Religionists or Socialists, who stated they were making great progress, whom he believed had branches in all the great towns and who sent lecture's throughout the country disseminating the most pernicious doctrines. Those men held tip private property as time source of all vice, crime, and misery. They scoffed and laughed at religion ; they said that all competition, all stimulants to exertion, were only so mummy incentives to misery and de gradation. They endeavoured to bring the marriage rite entirely into disrepute, and declared that it was an un social tie. They could not, perhaps, complain of the Govern ment until those societies came under their knowledge; but it was not expected that the President of that Society the man with whom all had originated— would be conducted by the Prime Minister—( Cheers) — carried by bins to the foot of the throne, there to present an Address, praying the Sovereign to demand that that House should enter into a course of inTairy respecting the doctrines—the pernicious doctrines taught by hint. Such a course of conduct would be at all times censurable, but doubly so now, when we consider who at this moment is the occupant of this throne -410 w, when we have a Queen, young in years and upon the point of entering into the holy state of matrimony— ( Laughter)—he hoped that at no time would this be al lowed to pass over by calling it a slight lnaprudence._ ( Cheers.) No father of a family, having daughters under his care, but must believe that the INoble Premier must have felt it to be his duty to have made himself acquainted with the doctrines of that circumstances, m d a man before he took him to the foot of the throne—no en a is n ea w rd ho took to n n d t i ae n r a d t e r e ct:l t t t man who held the doctrine that it was proper for father theo o o t f c a rthe family T w i • i o r u o l i t t l e, co u u a man to take a wife, keep h_er so long as it These were some of time to bring his motion reasons which induced him before time House. He should not think it right if he intruded him s self upon the House by entering into . the conduct of the her.— (Cheers mighthe rs ple' and se 1 a h u i ter. fancy,) Ittoial policy, otherwise he might have might Government with regard to their . Foreign and Co_ have found many charg es of neglect. Many others would enter into their mismana g em ent upon those points, as well as'into th at s y stem which h ad reduced our naval force to so low an e bb as not to be equal to the e pro tection of our commerce from foreign - aggression. Thanking the House fo r their kindness and attention he begged eto move the res olution of " That her ' which h e b a d p i ven notice, viz , Majesty s Government, as at present constituted, doe s not p osses s the confidence of this House." Mr. Alderman THOMPSON rose for the purpose of seconding the motion of the Hon. Bart. He thought that time thanks of the House were due to the Hon. Bart. for having adopted the course of proceeding he had done on the present occasion, whereby the country would at once ascertain to what extent, and in what degree, her Majesty's Ministers possessed the confidence of that House. He knew not when, in modern times at least, there had been a ne cessity more urgent, or a time more important for the adoption of the course pursued by his Hon, Friend the Hon. Baronet, than the present. When he considered the state of the great mats of the labouring popu lation of this country—when he considered the financial condition of the country—the state of some of the most important of our colonial possessions, or the state of our foreign trade, and the interests of navigation.—( Loud Baronet had all u d e d to the state cheers from time Ministerial benches)---he co u ld rot con sider but that the present motion w as of the utmost i m p or t. ance to the interests and constitution of the cou n t r y. Hi s Hon. Friend, the Hon. of the pop u l a ti on generally, and he had ma d e more parti cular allusion to that district where outrages of the most calamitous and mischievous nature had recently taken place —a district with which he (Alderman Thompson) ' was connected, he meant the district of South Wales; EV EN :NG EUir lON% ir, anied by the Americus Commodore they word given up. neral election by candidates opposed to the Government,l He did tint for a moment wish the Government to break who made that the medium by which they solicited votes, those friendly relations 16101 otisted between them and and excited the popular feeling against the Government? the French Government, but he Wanted that when outrage —(Cheers.) Let me ask him, if he does not believe that wits eommitted they would in a bold and fines nienster dc- the feeling which engendered Chartism had its origin in mann reparation and obtain justice. In what cast! had , opposition to the Poor-laws? Had there not been an justice been done._ Certainly, not in the case of the seizure 41/lance—l would say an "unhallowed alliance"—between of 13ritish ships in 18i4, when under the pretence of a Tories—(call them Conservatives, if you please)—but be querrel with a native tribe they seized British property tween Tories, Tory- Destructives, and - Chartists, in order to the amount of one hundred thousand pound s against to excite the people to violence against that law?—(Loud all the laws of nations, as admitted by the Noble Lord the cheers.) Nay, is it not a notorious fact that at the last Secretary fer Foreign Affsirs himself, and every other election which took place within these few days—even person who had thought on the matter; eet for that tine since the notice of the Hon. Baronet has been on the lawful seizure what had the merchants received? Mere boa:ea—that at the last election for the great metropolitan promises—certainly neither redress not reparation Itdd yet borough of Southwark, the great Conservative champion been afforded them. He would lay this country ought W , invited and received the Aid of the incendiary Oastler?— demand equity from France as well as shdi% it ; but so long (j e m e „„ e e„,.1, 7 0 as this question was delayed so much the more ceinplicated :• Mr. W. DUN C OMBE—I ri.'e to order, Sir—(Cries of did it become. He had received information recently thee " Oh," end *' Order, order 1") I a ek whether the Right the French were st ill pursu i ng t h e si nes c ourse to the ruin Honourable Gentleman is justified in nailing Mr. Oastler of °tie of the most important trades of this Country—the " that incendiary Oastler ?"—(Great laud hter. ) gull trade. They had put a complete stop to that trade Sir GEORGE GREY—Sir, lat once retiect the word, on th e ri ve r C asa M asa , by f o rcing the ships to depart and leav e Mr. Oastler to the protection of his panty.—(Liud against ask.o nv, , i, the ,elteill Government l y st e o r o n at m no e b n ce t a li t o h i st e t i t y they sal t 1 that t e k t without theit. cargoes. With respect to China, he would and rapturous cheering and laughter.) It has been charged beg to remind the House that the trade with that countryfomented e la n:: d i n !S:l n ae ., t e i t s i o o. - , was most important; and the House would at once per- I ticA o too real pl a a oc ce osa in tio N t i t ra vi le; ;to :, s , ceive that when he stated that the imports of British menu- (if chargeable )i on the Gove . rnmint 'Y ' factures and British colonial produce into that country amount e d annua lly t o seven m illi o ns. Why had not a ught rather to have been brou g ht aga i ns t th e G overnm ent, I looking at the quarter from which it comes, is, not that an at redrees been forced from them for the insults offered to her I tack took place on Newport—for that seems to have been a Majesty's representative at Canton, and the outrages coin- i godsend to lion. Gentlemen opposite, and it is the only no mitted on th e B r iti s h merchants residing there? These 1 velty they have introduced into this debate—but the real accu outrages h a d b een committed in the months of March and 1 cation, if they dare to do so, and the soreness which exists 00 April last ; intelligence of them had reached this country 1 this subject, is that while her Majesty in her Speech from the to a t t bo w c e r le own we have carried up in July an d A ugust ., an d y e t no preparation had been made Throne has lamented the lt existence i of these outbreaks for avenging these insults until just previous to the meet ing of Parliament in the month of January. It appeared , am e e x o p t r e i s t s a i s n goooturhereen those circumstances, Parli Iron the answer of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for li n et m i;i n su in rr too e fu ci s ion a s d , dt a o n ss t probation "on and the Government have not proposed, to increase Foreign Affairs, in answer to the question proposed by his a the es severity of the penal code. nor have they, as Hon. Friend, the Member for Oxtbrd, that her Majesty's :Misters disavowed the conduct of the Superintendent, has been done at former times, when an outbreak has taken I lace, come down and asked for extraordinary lee sto arm them which they were bound to and refused to sanction his proceeding—why was he not i or t he suppression of that outbreak.—( Cheers.) No, they then superseded ?—(Cheers)—why had they net sent out some other person in whose judgment and discretion they at ha lin ve in r i e: t i e e r d , o a n tid th i e a e s l k is w tin h g eth l e a r w a s n , any Hon. Gentleman b opposite reposed more conedence._( Che e rs.) He hoped the will pretend to say that those laws have not been fain{, justly, Nable Lord or some other member of her Majesty's strictly, and mercifully administered? C ( .It . v,.a . s ) to those. have Government would explain the reason why this course submitted the question of guilty or not e g i u o t ' a,' to the verdict par hadof not been pursued.--( Loud cheers.) With regard ties who were taken in ()pett insurre s icion of bias, and the to Canada, thanks to the firmness of Lord Col. . juries ; raper; ially chosen, i without a (la hear.) is it for this borne, the rebellion in that country had been put tweet has t lustifie o etl f t ieir t Commons e°nue i ' s . called upon to condemn her down—but that rebellion never would have broken out that; the G ou o s a e ssmnsa r, and to remove them from office? Is if in 1837 the Government had given proper suppers to it for this that they are to Les told by the Hon. Alderm an that Lord Gosford to put down the democratic assemblages they are slack in the admlnistration of the law? which were then disturbing the country. But it was in- Alderman THOMPSON—No, ,o.—(Cries of " O rder.") convenient at that time to increase the army because the Sir GEORGE GREY—I understood the Hon. Alder country was on the eve of a general election—:n conse- man to say that Government had not been sufficiently energetic i, quence the aid was delayed for another twelvemonth, and in the administration of the law.—( Cries of "Hear, he ar. ) tee safety of those most important colonies werc o put in I will nut sa y a word on what I consider was i a. defect in good jeopardy. With regard to the colony of Jamaica, and this taste. proceedings of the House relating thereto, the House must Alderman _ . THOMPSON—I beg, Sir, to be allows. l to lex -1 made no observation that the Governm ent was sack be mindful that a difference arose between her M eesty's Ge- Plain.i administration of the law. What I said was that there vernor of that Colony and the Legislative Assemblies on the was al dispo. • • designate thingsb ' their wrong names.- - cition to y subject of privilege—the Governor by repeated dissolutions (Cries of " Oh, oh.") of the Assembly had excited feelings of hostility and discon- Sir GEORGE GREY—I was coming to that, that was tent, which made it necessary to apply to her Majesty's another charge. lam quite aware that one ground on which Government for protection; and what protection did G o - the H onou rable Alderman asked the House of Commons to vernment propose for her Majesty's subjects ? Why, the withdraw their confidence from her Majesty's Government is destruction of their Constitution for five years, and the that Lord Normanby did not designate l the outrage T that was substitution of arbitrary power for that Constitution under committed by its proper name. d l e t c v e o n u t d ‘ a:ok ol t d he it l i o la n y o e ur b a een which the people of Jamaica bad lived happily for a period Gentleman, would it h ers hate been a Secretary Of State writing be of two hundred years. However, through the persevc- fair toiwardslt ofe pr these orties took place, to make use of any ranee, the foresight, and :the wisdom of the Right Hon. • fore e er t t i c e g t m ri s a than he did? Is the Honourable Gentleman aware Baronet, that course was prevented, and the Constitution great of the doubts that were raised upon one case and of the of Jamaica preserved to its inhabitants, who now enjoyed abilit with which some of the priso ners were defended? And I perfect tranquillity under Sir Charles Metcalfe, a man of wou ld ask the Hon. Member for Huntingdon, and the Hon. understanding, experience, and foresight. But what fol- Member for Ipswice, who so ably defended thoee prisoners— d lowsd the rejection of that measure? Why. the Noble de they concur with the Hon. Gentleman iii saying that Lor t Lord the Secretary of State for the Colonial Department Normanby took a wrong course, in not at once; rocianumg to came down to the House and announced his resignation the wo.ld that those parties who were a t b r o e ut o t r e , be ( ti e Le t,, d , h r e s.) and that of his colleagues, and the ground for that resig- jury of their countrymen were g n uil c of t o y nnection a wi l th this subject nation was, that they had lost the confidence of this House. Bat, Sir, the Hon. Gentlemanmrirt i who is now convicted by a jury . has complained that . . . lie ( Alderman Thompson) asked what circumstances had (''''' of treason, was re of his countrymen as having been guppy occurred which could have induced the House to restoreor rather commended by my Noble Friend to the allagistracy, l its confidence ?—( Hear, hear.) That was a question the was appointed by him to that judicial office. Now a great dea Noble Lord, or some one of his colleagues, must answer , has been said out of the House upon this subject. I sun not before the debate ended. Lord Melbourne, in another aware whether my Hen. Friend the Member for Devonshire place, which according to the rules of the House he must alluded to it—(Cries of " Yes, he did")—but whether he did nut particularly describe, en the Ist of May last, had said or not, one of the counts of the indictment on which the Hoare that unquestionably the worst Mini-try was that which of Commons is no w called upon to condemn the Government, is did nut prissess the confidence of Parliament and the that my Noble Friend, three or four years ago, appointed as s p o e b re . country, and could not carry those measures that were son to th e ma g istrac y of the borough oifeeNrewhpeoarr ) I ask whe t, who has necessary for the well-being of the people. He would s e q uentl y been guilty d of t b reas t o a n ke .-- n a ( n fa ins to ascertain the ask the Noble Lord whether he thought he had in a whe ther the of H tb on e . A n t se ernia , n , y a e s s,,, fromy L er man Thonmson. ) sufficient degree the confidence of the House to carry lre ts says he has. 'Then I must say he is grievously mistaken. such measures ? Why, what was the fate of the first mea- What would be the inference deducible from the Hon. Alder sure her Majesty's Government had introduced in the pre- mares „s ee , p h, but that my Hon. Friend, knowing Mr. Frost sent Session ?—it was rejected by the House, and t o be a traitor, and not fit to be trusted with the magistracy therefore if Lord Me.bourne were consistent in his of the borough, went out of the way to renni na te him to the opinion, her Majesty's Government must be changed. magistracy, and that he is now to be held up as a traitor ? He found that in a space of little more than six months. Does not the Hon. Gentleman know the rule laid down with there had been no fewer than eighteen changes of the regard to all those municipal corporations was boldly statss l in principal officers of Government—there had been marching in the face of the country, viz. that it was my Noble Frieno' s and ccunter-marching from office to office.—( Hear, hear.) intention to give attention to every recommendetion which Ile found that the Right Hoe. Member for Edinburgh, might . submitted trom the Town Councils of those bent boeughc? h-sd been substituted in her Majesty's Councils, for the tv opt administration tbe henotttien at n t o h G e overn t ment otit to rusted Noble Lord the Member for Northumberland. But he ) 'hat was tL ou ti l m7 to havewhich adop ted ,rotli that course e—( Cheers. confessed that that change had not his confidence.—( Loud ward this motion, and not now, when a man by an act cont cries of " Hear, hear.) Mr. Burke had said that his m ist e d ye a rs after, is convicted of treason.—(Cheers.) B u t ; standard of a statesman was a disposition to preserve and what are the facts of the case. The Town Council recent an ability to improve the institutions of the country. He mended an addition to the Magistracy in the borough. The believed that there was no disposition on the part of her supplemental list sent up contained the names of Brewer and Majesty's Government to preserve our present institutions. Frost. Mr. Brewer was a gentleman agreeing in politics —( Loud cheers from the Opposition benches)—and be with Mr. Jones. Mr. Frost was a Gentleman who, in common with the Hon. Baronet the Member Pembroke, and the had no confidence in their ability to improve them. It , Noble Lord the Member for Lancashireforvery ac tive part was on these accounts that he gave his support to tne in the proceedings of the Reform Bill.—(1 - ;ear, hear , and motion of the Hon. Baronet. Before he sat down he hoped lawthter.) They both possessed the confidence of their fellow he would he permitted to express his acknowledgments to , townsmen, and were both recommended. Having r sferre I to the House for the forbearance they had shown to him during i th e L or d Lieutenant, and ascertained that no sub;tantial the period he had been offering them these observations. i cbjcetion existed to those individuals , his Noble Free nd That was the first occasion during a Parliamentary life of attended to that recommendation, as in the face of the' more than twenty years, on which be had appeared as House and the country he stood pledged to do—( Hear, taking a prominent part on any great political question. be:a)—and for his adherence to that pledge he is now to He should have shrunk front appearing in that character be condemned, and the coittidence of the House is to be withal:am , on the present occasion, if he did not feel impelled by a from the Government, simply because Mr. Frost has sine been sense of duty as an independent Member of the Houee, guiltyiii has s or e % a a n d cl , or u t nd d isgu l ised bo tr f el. o s ti on. Hu Now t the ri,eitzet was and if he did not feel he was acting in accordance with 'T o l t e c which, I thought,. e N t - o oul Y d t ha - • .- Jonfe opposite terms of the honour and the best interests of the country.—(L d topic ' • Loud i . t he. oesupie , from the his motion, a much more prominent part of this debate. It cheers.) Sirseems, however, that lion. Gentlemen arc wearied of the dis- G GREY G. then rose and said, in rising to oPleose cussiun of Irish olicy and Irish questions.--(Cheers and a direct negative to the motion which has just been made, laughter.) It was glanced at by the Hon. Baronet, but the it was his pleasing duty, in the first place, to express his whole of the c ount as res p ects Ireland, and, as I understood him, cordial and heartfelt concurrence in th e first sentiment consists in this, that the son of the lion. Member for Dublin which fell from the Hon. Baronet—a sentiment which would had been appointed to a place, and that the Hon. Member for meet, he was sure, with the equally cordial concurrence of Dublin himself had dined with the Lott' Lieutenant.---(Great all his friends around him —namely, laughter.) I confess, I have not put myself to the trouble of satisfaction tha at length this course was taken—(Cheers)—that Ile- inquiring who are the ordinary guests, or the extraordinary nourable Gentlemen opposite had at last abandoned the guests, at the table of the Lord Lieutenant; of but, otm S o i s r, i I e t a h l i l i e t policy which they had for the last five years pursusd it is extremely t ridiculous bntt when t a h 11 v e ote oa w s h e ich is dsscr o ibed - by. the —( Cheers)—that they had substituted for the poor u H p o o n n no Alderman momentous on the simple ground that warfare of detail—( Loud cheers)—for the perpetual an Hon. Gentleman, a supporter of her Majesty's Govern obatruction of the measures which the Government sub- meet, and an open and undisguised • supporter , the mitted to Parliament—(Cheers)—with th e somew h at va i n . H on . an d Learned Member for the City of Dublin, has dined glorious boast at the close of the Session, of the nullity with the Lord-Lieutenant of that country.—(Loudeheers and of their deliberations—(Cheers)—he rejoiced that Hon. laughter. Why has this motion not been made ou former oc- Gentlemen opposite had at last substituted for this course casions, and why has the opinion of the House not been taken the more manly, the more decided policy of abandoning on this solemn. this important, this monr.ntons question, a assaults upon individual parts of the Government measure:, where the Hon. Member for Dublin dined ?—( Renewed laugh and on individual members of the Government administra- ter..) A t lthough ,e t t h i e n H si o h n nio G e e ll n i t a lT l n u a si z o i n m t ? have l fo d unil itancoont tion, and venturing to call up in the British House of vooennisednotrin% considering this is the Parliament of Great ren Britain c l en! Commons for a direct verdict of condemnation on the Ireland, consent to withdraw it altogether from the considers whole policy of the Government—legislative and admi- lion of the House.—( Hear, hear.) I say it is notorious—it is nistrative.—(Chcers.) That was the real question, and admitted by lion. Gentlemen opposite, that the Government the principal difficulty he felt in meeeng, the question How have the confidence of the people of Ireland.--( Cheers.) It, is submitted to the House, was the absence of anything to notorious that from that country to this, there have bent grapple with.—(Great cheering.) He looked in vain withdrawn regiments, with perfect security to Ireland, and to the speech of the Honourable Baronet who had with increased security to England. , -(Hear, hear.) If this brought the motion forward, and to that of the Honour- had not been the case, would not the Hon. Baronet and the aisle Alderman v. - ho seconded it, for any topic that Hon. Alderman have been too ready , to have charged this on afforded ground for the motion, or any reason why it her Majesty's Gove o rnm a e n n d n a a s sLzanet tli t:c t u o ri security ofe own - should . - s part nre of thed disapprobation er ; of the House. Now, is it because mg.) He expected that the Hot,. Baronet would have her Majesty's Government possessed the confidence of the Laid before the House such an alarming state of the people of Ireland, teat , therefo r e , . Honourable Gentle country, and such a dereliction of duty on the part of her men opposite, ask this House to withdraw its confidence Majesty's Ministers, as would have rendered it imperative from therm ?—(Loud cheers.) The next topic which we for the House to have taken the administration of the alluded to by the Hon. Baronet was the topic of the Church. Government from the hands of his friends, and have Here again, as in other parts of his address, he was totally 'tended it over to lion. Members on the other side of the silent in stating facts in support of the allegation he made—that House.—( Cheers. ) Had any fact been stated to justify the Government were enemies of li C 1 1 h e at tl l t i e ur c eh h ;it e th h a N t „ t s h c o y ° . t p sa t f i- e such a course ?—( Hear, hear.) No adequate motive had moSed the voluntary s c y d et i e n m, n, a v r er. t What sbadOw of evidence been assigned by the Hon. Baronet and Alderman for sub- ' r: l t o h n e g re a in they support of that p allegation ?—( Hear, hear.) I ask witting the motion which had been most justly describes' as the Hon. Baronet suo to call to his mind the legislative measures important. He felt, he must confess, some satisfaction, w i t h reear d t o thi s s ubject.—( Hear, hear.) Does he mean to in not being the only party who was ignorant of the say the' Eng, , ish Tithe Bill has lessened the revenue or en grounds on which the motion had been brought dangered the security of the Church? hoes the Diocesan forward.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) He had looked of the diocese in which he resides--t Cheers )—and do the to the organs of th e oth e r s id e o r the House, but thee ap- clergy %Nish that Bill to be repeal ed ? Or do they think their peared as much in the dark as hims e lf as to the motiies of situation has been less beneficial in that respect since that the lio.i. Mover and Seconder of the motion. They had Bill was passed ?—( Bear, hear.) ar Where are the petitions . I'7 been toad with great confidence that by the result of the its repeal ? And l i ask i the i Hon. r th l3 , Baronet t t what I egislat7 t rrie. o - , elections Ministers must find themselves in a minority. " Ire k has passe . ' s l m F . . ~,.. i est degree rate ed ~ -ened the oderests of tie ..stablished Church ? " Oh, That on the :28,11 JAnuary would be decided the existence says r . the lion. Baronet, " there was a measure two Or three years of the Whig Government—that their existence would be agie" Why slid he not bring his motion on then ?—( Hear. ) annihilated, and that, Government would be transferred to 'there "as a motion for trannerring a portion of the property the hands of Hon. Gentlemen opposite. That note was of the Church, in which the Church had no beneficial int erest changed, and they had been told that they looked for- whatever, to the maintenance of the fabric of tie Church. ward to the moral effect of a Ministry.—( Cheers from That measure was proposed with a view to strengthen the tbe Ministerial side of the House.) Why the motion was Church, by removing that euitful source of discord between rendered necessary he knew not, unless it were to test Churchmen and Dissenters, which unhappily has rent this the votes of Hon. Gentlemen opposite.—( Loud cheers from country from one end to the other, and has raised one class of the Ministerial side.) It was thought that Gentlemen on the Opposition side wavering in their allegi- had been accomplished, I for one should have been sincerely anon.-4 Tremendous cheers.) It was still intended to rejoiced at it. I should have been glad to have enumerated continue the warfare of detail, but it was feared the war- the accomplishment of that object among those circumstances which entitles the Government to the confidence of the House. fare would be somewhat diminish ed, and it w B ut therefore I would only ask the house whether they would withdraw found necessary to test Hon. Ge ntlemen b y a direct vote their confidence from her Majesty's Government, because of hostility to the Government. He repeated again, thatthey made the attempt te pass that measure, and were foiled? it would be met most willingly, if not cheerfully.— —( H ear , hear, and cheers.) Then as to education, the ( Hear, hear, hear, and cheers from the Ministerial side.) lion. Gentleman had made a proposition which I deny, and Ile was confident those cheers assured him that they were which I will disprove, if he will give WIC any more fitting oppor anxious to remove any obstruction to public business— tunny than the present, with regard to the scheme proposed and (Continued cheering)—and that they would be strengtl carried into effect by the Government f or the education c ued in the course of progressive improvement which 1- of the people. I cannot think that is a gro und for asking the they had all along maintained, and h a d determined them House of Commons to still to withdraw its confidence from the Go maintain. The Hon. Baronet had reminded vernment, because, looking at the lamentable state of igno that Chartism had been promoted ranee in elect] the people are—at the lamentable effects that Government. He begged to by the present have followed that ignorance—l think that they ought to d b.:e a. lion. Baronet referred say that the Right praised rather than blamed for endeavouring to bring forward to aperiod anmeasure, which, witnout at all affecting the iii' the date of Lord Melbourne's G tecedent to comprehensive . . the Established Church, or the right of the lista- Right Hon. Baronet, the overnment. Seeing the terests of - .Member for Pembroke,andthe blished Church to.educate the members of its communion, A Noble Lord, the Member for Lancashire, calculated to enlighten the people, and extend the blessings of . opposite, and ' knowing the zeal, thei .liions education to all the classes of the people, energy, with which they worked the amoral an, re e . Reform Bill through Parliament, and agitated the people l of ' (Cheers.) lint without violating the rights conscience. - on the subject—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—it would ill I "": I N did not the lion. Baronet allude to Ireland here? Was it become • him, with very inferiorPi ht Baronet, theMbT th because the sig t - on. ern er for amwor , experience, and inferior I 1 and the Noble Lord, the Member for Lancashire, and others talent, to address a word in exculpation of the Govern- ; who were members of the Cabinet five years ago, not only ap nicnt•—(Cheerss) H e did no t b e li eve i n t h e j ust i ce of the ac- j proved of the principle of the vote for Irish education, but cusation. The people did not require to be agitated — also proposed an extension of it?—(Cheers.) But, Sir, this they rose 55 one man. and desired that they should is only one of the many questions on which Hon. Gentlemen op be represented.—( Loud cheers.) The Honourable i posite are disagreed and disunited.— (Loud cheers.) Here I llsronet proceeded—But such, I believe, is not the i A , RY allure to an observation that struck me forcibly opinion of Honourable Gentlemen opposite—they have : while the Hon. Baronet was addressing the House; viz., that attributed the Carr 'n of the Reform Bill to ms,i- ! t asking uoici yen to l tran o s f f h er , yourleer co confidence f s i d erce from the knoowrnte,dubn tation promoted by the Government, and l " me ( the' m ' aj e i t tr l i ) t r y in o e Pth e i s s Elo l u ' se Majesty hitherto, to Government, ioGeit s l u e li m p en oppoy ask any Gentleman to name . any one measure site, they were totally silent as to the policy you might expect of the Government, which has been carried by agitating : from them, and that upon no one of the many occasions upon and stimulating the people.—( Hear, hear.) But if the i whicli Hon. Gentlemen opposite have been dividing into op lion. Baronet is so sensitive as to the passions of the ; posing, I might say contending, factions, did they ever state people being excited, let me ask him whether, without which was to prevail, or what policy was to guide the future coming to this side of the House, he may not find around Administration. (Loud cheering.) Another question in bins Gentlemen who have excited the people on the P oor _ con nec tion with this subject, as perhaps it is the better c ourse laws e --( Loud che e rs.) Let me ask the Hon. Baronet, to follow the Hon. Baronet and the Hon. Alderman through whether he has not read speeches made at the last gc- those charges they brought against her Majesty's Government, L . •