The Sun. — London, England, 1847-05-11 00:00:00

Volt. y t pr o . • James !r Job ° al g air s el shav s Tamer, Secon d voted ; Saha! , Le, vice 13, Ylee Ewart, ,motel ; day 2. ; hire. ry Bola biro ;—;- Hyde Lerch 1 Ca rr 0814 half' aani" ltreet! re, at Ab• Fes'' jog; B and 7-- foe any ten ant at will, or from ycar to r, to l day of J anuary, 1849, to deduct from yea the rent which he may be liable in respect of such property heany amount whatever in respect of any rate which may imposed at any period subsequent to the date of such lease or agreement, or subsequent to such Ist day of Ja nearY, as the ease may be. That all the provisions of the Act 6th and 7th Victoria, c. intituled, "An Act for th e further Amendment of an A - ct for the more effec tual Relief of the Destitute Peer in Ireland," for the charge and recovery of rates upon property rated to a tnaekteannntouaaly Ipvpalue n o t exceeding 41, shall be deemed and value v to the like property rated to a net annual apply not exceedinexceedingsl. ; provided nevertheless, and be it enacted, that no immediate lessor holding under afternduct lease ftrho em a or passing f t o agreement sAe t t shall o , be made or entered into be authorised to de rent by hi m payable under such lease or ensu r ent to y his sup er i or l andlord, any amount whatever respe ct of any rate whi c h may b e i mpose d at any pe . nod subsequent to the date of such lease or agreement. Re said the time had now arrived when it became his duty to submit for the adoption of their Lordships the • amendment of which he had given notice. He was quite sure that their Lordship s , in proceeding with th e disc ussion, and w i t h the amendment, of this most im portthant subject, would approach it with ou t an y re f erence on eir or witout any influence on their minds from the misapprehension and misrepresentation which had been industriously circulated, not only within the h'alls of that House, with regard to the object as well as o th motive whi c h h ad led him to propose the clause— thaey would n o t cons id er w h et h er the vote wh i ch he asked them to come to, should confer upon them a mo mentary popul they arity, or the reverse of popularity—th a t uld not either be influenced by those insinua tions which had b een very liberally circulated with re. Lgarorddshtlipst,he probable political consequences of their adoption of the motion which he had It for their consideration and adoption. (Hear.) ~„I t had been stated that his was a landlord's amendment. 'ow', he denied that altogether—(Cheers) —nay more, he should be ashamed of himself if, connected as he o w r a_s With property in Ireland, he submitted to their L d arPs' consideration a clause intended or calculated, ex clusively or even rimarily, to benefit that class to which -e himself belonged.—(Hear.) He should be yet more shamed of himself, if that advantage were to be pur chased by any corresponding advantage upon any other C lass of scciety ; but his firm conviction was, that so far from being a landlord's question, if it be anything it was especially a labourer's, and not a landlord's question,— (Loud cheers.) The object which he had in view was— and - which he was sure all their Lordships had in view— yeas how they could best conduct this perilous experi- Silent, upon which they were called upon to enter, upon Which they had decided ; and notwithstanding all the objections, and all the difficulties, and all the dangers, he thought, upon the whole they had wisely decided to enter, but it was for their consideration, and it was important that they should all consider it calmly and deliberately, how to conduct that experiment, so as to render the property of Ireland, best able to bear the burden, which was about to be thrown upon it ; and best able to bear this burden of the employment of those labourers whom they desired to rescue from a pressure upon the poor- rates. e was not then deterred by any of the considerations bWhich he h a d re f erre d, f rom su b m i tt i ng to their r dships an amen d ment, w hi c h , i n h i s consc i ence, he ie ved was nesessary for the safe working of this thitneasure. He was not even deterred front submitting s amendme n t, b y t h e rather unusual intimation con- CCined in that extraordinary message from the House of on uzaons, whi c h was conveyed to their Lordships a few nights th ego—(Cheers'and laughter)—by my N o bl e Friend e Noble Earl on 'the cross benches ; who, for the arPurpose of influencing your Lordships' deliberations m ed ecisio ns upon this measure, thought it necessary to to your Lordships that he was in a position In state from authority that Earl Lincoln had changed Is mind upon the subject of an Irish poor- law.—(Cheers and laughter.) Undoulatedly, recent events had made it reer"ftPa convenient that when there was any general ch ange in the House of C ommons en masse , ear l y inti r?ation should be giv en t o your L or d s hi ps o f suc h a !he flange, but he (Lord St 1 y with all the respect which h ad for his Noble Fri a e n nd e on the cross benches, and it e ts 6 most unfeigned, and th e ot h er N o bl e L or d to w h om o referred, he hardly th oug h t t h at such an i ntimation was likel • ehi to have a n un d ue i nfluence on your Lord :,catch P 3 deliberations, when hi s N o bl e F r i end on the cross es, stated that he was authorised, on authority, to e Lincofor the i n f ormation of your Lordships, that Lord Was h ad changed hi s op i nions.—(Laughter.) He also farther deterred from bringing forward this .stio mind n, than by that which had much greater weight Noble the expressed objection of my e and Learned Friend (Lord Brougham) whom he 0 . , ! not see in his place, and also from the dobtecetions of the Noble Marquis (Lens that ) h on the opposite benches. He repeated obj ect - e was not even deterred by their _ions, but he thought the objections of his Noble sad L earned Friend had reference more particularly to to the were fallaciously announced to be the objections the measure. The Noble Marquis, in stating the ;;18t.?_ II P!) 1 of his objections, stated what he (Lord Stanley) kusA,deared a most dangerous principle to enunciate of iOr(iie public man could be guilty, namely—that they ;theligir.elate, not upon principles, but upon impressions. ) This was a matter of too great consequence effects 14 to consult impressions ; they must look to the • , c oPsiatio n asequences. They must see that their le I t would I " ,not obtain -momentary popularity, but that enew. them to placing the country out of hazard, and felt C onvinced to legislate safely for her defence ; and he th e . -- ""theed that, unless they adopted the principle of itoP` lte endtnent he had intrusted to them, they could not e that this experiment could be conducted without most dang erous an d crue l results. He asked them '0 deal with Irish property as they would think it safe to deal with English property.—(Loud cheers.) The great body of them, perhaps, were unconnected with Property in Ireland ,• they were called upon to legislate With regard to that country, and he asked them, before they decided, to place their hands upon their hearts, and say whether they would dare to propose, or whether they could carry into effect a poor-law for England based upon the principles , of this poor-law ?—(Renewed cheering)—and deprived of the safeguard which th e y h a d i n E ng l and against abuse.—(ffear, hear.) Why, if they could not, with vrhat consc i ence, with what show of reason, with what h ope of success, could they impose upon Ireland that Which they knew they could not impose upon England ? -44 all events they must show him that this experiment was dangerous for England, and that it was safe for Ireland, before they rejected his proposition ; they must Point out the circumstances which rendered it less In jurious to Ireland th an t o E ng l and. On them rested the onus of proof, a n d not upon him. When Ley asked him to cramp the relief to the poor Ireland, he asked them, on the de, to show that th a t s y stem of relief which was other not f s afe for England, was safe for Ireland, and would be ac nipanied by a safegu ar d . Th ey must explain the dif renee. The measure which they were about to adopt w ould, by th e con f ess i on of every man, press heavily UDOU the parishes and their object was—and his main object *ll3 -- zio „ to relieve too great a pressure upon the poor-rates; Ivit ' i Y a straightened and niggardly parsimony, not by b ei : l l , c , i rawing relief from those really destitute, not by In r u_mg and grinding down relief to a minimum point perrel'arnt.districts, but to supersede the necessity for pall. --..(Lou'aeY furnishing the means for independent labour 1.,0rd5C cheers.) Now let him first recal to their th e r 2P.'s attention what was the principle which with 7gtslature imposed on the landlords and tenants e xisted to the payment of the rates? As the law nivel the rate was in the first instance levied exclu ,_ sy on the tenant. but when he paid his rent to his ~_4 ' n‘ d , l tird he deducted not one-half of the amount of the le but one-half of the poundage upon his rent, which th7_eclual to one-half of the poundage charged upon utlitr,„_tiaorjteable value of the land. Such at this period is the ets iirtire.deatle had heard many Noble Lords say that (ori aadlordwas' after all, equally distributed between end the tenant. It was no such thing.— n es " " Hear, _ hear . ") It was n o t or i ous to every or _,„ ~ el their Lordships conversant with th e e state Ip.la:eland, it was notorious that the rated value o. land Invariably upo n an average b elow the fair rent-value - t he laud. He believed.he should not much exaggerate , VPh ll he stated, that in some cases a piece of land was „ -I lted at 201.; yet, without being overrated, it was worth ..°l .h te na nt only paid rates for the 201., at the still i was t e rated. A shilling rate was levied upon :hb an t, and he paid one shilli ng u p on eac h pound of his tt ra m te 20/. ; but he was entitled to deduct Is. 2d. .70R1 his rent to defray the expense of th e rate , and he d educted, not 205., but thirty sixpences, or 155., from Ina landlord, out of the 20s. which he had been called 101 l to pay. (Hear.) The result was this, that one-fourth the rate was borne by th e t enan t, an d t h ree- f ourths A borne by the landlo r d.—(H ear, h ear. ) H e did th i nk "eat this was exaggerated; it was rather below than ove the m ar k . The occupying tenant paid one-third, kt ici the l an dl ord the remaining two-thirds.—(Hear, bear.) Now, the relations between landlord and tenant ei ‘`, re far better understood here than in Ireland, and the eiln4ition of the tenant was eminently expensive in l eand to what it was in Ireland. Farmers, for in svere larger here tha n i n I re l an d. H e s h ou ld b e $ 0 4411 t to rest the whole question on this ground. Itch, asked th ose w h o considered the poor-law themitageou s in England, what would be the condition, F ar social and mo ra l con di t i on of a par i sh, i n wh i ch the oe "'et' should have the power to levy rates, two-thirds (Loade r ates having t o b e p a id by th e l an dl or d s ?— ir et ehe ?rs.) He did n o t as k th em w h a t th e y th oug h t att dbe the effect upon the landed property—that was tregnPortant question ; but it was not the only one of g W eeld ; and he asked them what they thought hat be the social condition of the labourer ?—(Hear.) th e i ' w°lll d be their state—what would be the effect of ttri h 71-gnitude or diminution of pauperism in that ue asked them what inducement there would iel.t.!_tho farmer to employ additional hands and to make „_llrovetuents ttitian'w, ohuill.tdthhaat 'Me e , . upon his holdings if he had not the alter , as in England that unless he employed them have h t e o did i) a n y o tmust be for their support . , the comply, then they I,9Ported b the parish, out of rates le %, ied incurectly trom attempted- e was certain that if in England they iticanit.7 was such a measure, that it would ot that t° the destruction of the moral and social oNeOu'eutnlabour, to tphaerii s n h: re t a o se t n h o e t odneslytroufcttihoen rates,ot in d h e n - t "inane all exerti Ithe number of knd P a upers ; that it would absolutely,annr ons at the improvement of that parish, ph ut Would be overwhelmed by a flood of universal shi erisat Was there a man among their Lord- PS wh o insult of such w ould deny t h at that would be the probable a th measure in E ng l an d? W as t h ere a %.14„,t-on b g ell' Lordship s prepared to follow up this ... i otla ja d ? Y assenting t o a similar measure for go? If t A h nd upon what ground did they refuse to This • eY did not, the farmers in England might za ir _ Is what the farmers in Ireland have obtained CV ' 1 % 1, a We not to be placed in a similar position?" • ey 4a uld 3 aY that if the landlords in Ireland were ~.~ r~Kif~''9. TRE SUN, LONDON y TVESDAY EVENING, pay the rates that the landlords in England . had complained ;of the imperfection of the measure, but should do the same.—(Hear, hear.) Now, was that the imperfection of any law was no reason for departing wise, was it paus e , was it just, was it safe to create from the good principle which it might contain, and such an anomalous st a te of things between tw o countries? trying measures which might aggravate the evil which Let them tell him upon what ground, upon what argument, the law was intended to remedy. It was upon these they could resist the demand to grant them the same grounds, and from the conviction that the amendment privilege which they were willing to allow to the Irish would render the whole scheme of legislation useless, tenants ? Well, it none of their Lordships would deny that he asked their Lordships to refuse their assent to it. the character of the state of things in England, let them ' After a few words from Lord WALSINGHAM, tell what was the safeguard which they could rely upon i Lord MONTEAGLE said that, feeling as strongly in introducing such a system as this into Ireland. Was ' upon this subject as he did, he must be allowed to state Ireland more wealthy, were her means of permanent j why it was that he supported this amendment. He had employment greater than those of England ; were the I formerly stated, with regard to this measure, that the relations between landlord and tenant more confidential, ! public et large were frequently led astray by supposing more thrifty, and was she more capable of employing . that what worked well in one co un t r y must necessarily labour tha n encourag i ng pauper i sm ? B ut it was note- ; work well in another ; and therefore they argued that rious that the reverse of all this was the fact, ,I because the poor-law answered in England, it should If there was security in the relations between the land- ! equally apply in Ireland. Many of his statements would lords and tenants, and that that security existed in ; indeed analogous be inapplicable, o pl t ica t b h l o e s , e iti n th E e ustgaltaendo.f tThihnegsGoinvelrrnemlaentidt England, he saw no r eason w hy th e l aw w i th respect to wars in l Ehnegi r 'uknewiits into e legislator s .—(Hear.) g considerationisl au) ir s . the two countries s h ou ld no t b e ass i m il ated. He did ! fish would find, law ucli,lh however, witout thatmod ifi if eat t i h o e n y s. in t t h r e o y du w e e e r d e tehneaEctiiingg not know whether he wou ld not venture to trust such a 'l-ie t a h r 2t . power as that proposed by th e Bill , to S cotch propr i etors 1 thepart veryo s f hould l a and Scotch tenants. L oo ki ng at t h e i nte lli gence o fLordships the farmers, to the h a bit s o f t h e country, an d to i l an d t h e poor-law rat e h a d b een recognised from time the extent of their farms—their knowledge of their immemorial as bindin g upon all classes, but in Ireland respective duties—it cou ld b e carr i e d i nto e ff ect w i t h' the law was altogether new, and likely, therefore, to be more advantage; but he should be sorry to trust to the I viewed with distrust. There was great difference in the operation of such a measure in England. (Hear.) ! imposition of a tax for the first time and the levying But h - was certain of this that in Ireland it would be j of a tax which had been long in existence, and long re absolutely and entirely ruinous —(Hear)—and a b so l u t e cognised by the various classes who paid their portions ruin not only to the landlord, not to the landlord prima- of the same. Of all times, the present was the least rily, but absolute and entire ruin to the whole property adapted for the collection of a tax which, compared with 1 of the country, whilst the plan he proposed would create the other taxes now levied in the country, was as the a body of independent labourers, and also a class weight of a mountain compared with the weight of a of farmers. If there was a hop e of e ff ec ti ng thi s o bj ect, mo l e -hill . Suppose that an alteration were to be and without this object there was no hope for the social made, from a system of out-door relief to ons of regeneration of Ireland—if there was a hope of effecting in door relief, or a change in the amount of this object it was by promoting the int eres t o f th e occu - th e taxat i on of the country fro m lOs, in the pound to ls. pier, by increasing the amount o f l a b our on t h e l and i n the pound, then there might be a . probability of get which he occupied. Really the principle enu- Ling the lesser amount collected, but when it wa s pro worsted by that Bill was so U to pi an , not to say posed to raise the amount of taxation from Is. to 10 s . i n so monstrous, that he cou ld not b e li eve that it the pound, it was evident ient that the la rger amount cou ld would be entertained by suc h an assembly as never be collected. i d sue this. If it could n o t b e sa f e l y appl i ed to England it was cess of the measure eveonuwl with in no not t t he sa e n la g u u s i e ne as as pr t o o p t o h s e edhy the rather hands leave of the the whole Go . y for them to sh ow th at i t cou ld be safely applied to Ire- the Noble Lord. He w land. But he wan t e d to k now what the circumstances responsibility of the o e r t a e b d l e thet o Go were which r e nd ere d t h e a d opt i on of the same principle vernment, so that they should measure l to both count r i es d angerous. Perhaps he might be told turn round upon those Noble u Lord at s any who time supported p b that they could not trust t h e Irish landlords to make clause, and ascribe its failure to the operation of the agreements with their tenants. That really was the clauie which they had introduced. He thought that the only argument he had heard against the principle of his principle of the clause was, however, a sound one, and amendment. H e did not w i s h to take the burden from the only difficulty he felt_ . in supporting it arose from the sho u ld ers o f one b o d y and to place it on the his belief of the impossibility of carrying out the mea shoulders of another, but he sought to affirm in this sure before their Lordships. Bill a pri nc ipl e w hi c h he believed would be of Earl of HARDWICKE considered that the opera the greatest advantage t o th e peopl e of Ireland. tion of the poor-law had, in England, been the means of He asked them to interfere with no existing agreem en t providingmuch ben e fit ; but was it to be supposed a —he ask e d t h em to v i o l ate no present law. He asked f ormoment, that if the poor's rates had paid b them to int er f ere w ith no ex i st i ng contract or agreement bee nyth the landlord s alone, that this country between the landlord and t enant as i t stoo d at that mo- would have ever risen to such a height of prosperity, or went, but this he did ask them:—That whereas the been enabled as it then was t o ass i st i n ame li orat i ng principle is soun d an d j ust t h at the occupier, who alone the mighty distress had the m eans o f g i v i ng employment, should be induced and Ireland. TheNo w h h le ich Lo o r v d erhung . bo opposite h t h a t fli s i t s a t c e o c il n t h t r a y t to give empl o y men t b y a k nowledge that a proper divi. the Government were anxious to giv e landlords an siou of the burden would fall upon his own shoulders interest in the working of the poor-law; but was it to be instead of another man's, he asked them to affirm that supposed that the landlords, who paid two•thirds of the principle. He proposed in the amendment of which he rates, should be considered as parties likely to assist in I had given notice that, from the Ist of January, 1850, the beneficial operation of the measure ; his only obje c t tenants at will should become liable to the same condi- would very naturally be to reduce the expenditure. He lions as those who had at present permanent leases. If felt it his duty, therefore, to consent to the amendment that principle were sound, the question then came as to of his Noble Friend ; and he thought that in doing so, its mode of application—and whether it was a safe one? he was acting with a due regard to the justice, the pros- He did not apply it a t once —h e app li e d i t prospectively; perity, grad the safety of the people o f th a t country, he left it to the te nan t s at w ill and to t h e l an d lords forthe Earl ST. GERMANS said the N o bl e L or d who had next two years an d a h a lf to enter i nto t hi s new ar - just sat down had advanced a line o f argument i n respect rangement. He knew the p o p u l ar f ee li ng upon thi s of the ex officio guardians fou n d e d upon an erroneous subject. He k new t h e d ec l amat i ons t h at were ma d e view of the English Poor -law. But he co u ld no t avo id upon the hard-heartedness and griping hands of the Irish adverting to the attack which the Noble Earl had made landlords. lie knew the indiscriminating, sweep- when he remarked upon him, as the bearer of messages ing condemnation which this country was so much from the House of Commons. He might disclaim this disposed to cast upon Ireland and upon at once and be done with it. He had not been the bearer all things Irish. He knew bow ready people were to of messages from the House of Commons, but he did say that th e y could not stop to pick the few grains of think proper to mention the opinion of a Noble Friend of wheat from the bushel of chaff, and that they could not his who had been lately officially connected with Ireland, inquire into the exceptions in individual instances. Ile and who had not habitually acted with a party ; he did had heard that the landlords of Ireland were totally in- think it well to mention the opinion of that Noble Lord. different to anything except collecting, in the most ra- But to advert to the argument of the Noble Earl—He pacious manner, every thing that they could screw from had overstated the proportions of the rate levied, as he the hard earnings of their tenants ; but he also knew would find by reports which lay upon their Lordships' that they were proceeding to legislate for the purpose of table. The rate levied by the Bill was by far the most laying upon the landlords those hardships which they equable, placing the grasping and the liberal landlord upon charged them with inflicting. If such were the character a level, for the tenant was entitled, out of every pound of Irish landlords—if it were the fact that there were of rent which he paid, to half the rate which was levied instances of stich short-sighted capacity—if they thought upon him. The Noble Lord then reverted to the debates that they could protect the tenant by this regulation which occurred both before their Lordships and in the from the griping spirit of landlords—if they thought that Commons when the original Irish poor-law was intro the same landlord, who had the power of exacting the duced, and quoted at length from the opinions expressed uttermost farthing from the tenant, and screwing out of by several Members of the Lower House on the them every shilling and every penny that he could drag 5/. clause, all which, he said went to make from him by any process whatever—did they believe it more stringent upon the landlord ; nay, more, a Corn that such a landlord would not protect himself against mittee of which the Noble Lord (then Mr. Spring Rice) their legislation by such an increase of rent as would was Chairman, went so far as to recommend the imposi cover any possible amount of rate ? They tion of the whole rate upon the landlords. He greatly said that the tenant had not got the money doubted as to the policy of the amendment, believing that to pay the rate, and that they could not pay it. The it would deprive the Bill entirely of any chance of fact was that the tenants did pay it—(Hear, hear)—it success. was by th em i t was now paid, and all that they had to The Earl of MALMESBURY said he would explain, do, was to produce a receipt for so much rate as part as briefly as possible, why he would support the Noble payment for so much rent; could they believe that if, as Lord's amendment. He was an English landlord, as they said, there was this spirit on the part of the some of their Lordships knew, without one acre of land honest peasant to bid for land at whatever price it could in Ireland, and without any experience whatever of that be obtained—if there was such a determined spirit on country. He had, therefore, hitherto refrained from the part of the landlord to exact the uttermost farthing debates on Irish affairs ; but on this occasion a great —did they entertain the delusion, that by saying, that principle was in question, and in that principle he was the landlord should pay the rate, they would relieve interested. It was a principle which the members of the tenant?—the landl or d wou ld exact the utmost rent, her Majesty ' s Government had adopted and affirmed in muchwhc.h less Y the tenant wou ld pay. so that there would be so the English poor-law, which they b a d pro d uce d , rate co ll ecte d . They might fancy that they brought in, and passed.' They affirmed then that th e oc relieved the t enan t , b ut i n the meantime they did away cupying tenant oug ht t o pay t h e rates. The principle with the i n d ucement to the tenant to employ labour. of the amendment was, therefore, no new principle, and He would, perhaps, be met by a t a la e asserti, that the if Ministers were opposed to it, he asked them why they amendment would meet with Government would make without being degraded—that unless it was altered. That was a universalconfession resistance did not abandon the poor-law existing in England, and wch no enact a new law containing a new principle. But was a confession which was fatal to all l what would be the consequences, he said, of the trusted that in that House it would not be brought he present amendment On this head reference was one * f t t b h een r. stirred against the payment of tithes to r(l f ugh t t had been made to the disorders that had forward as an argument,—(Hear, hear.) were believed, that the principle e the rotestant clergy. He, however, denied the analogy sound legislation, they should be firm in the application of i g Ron alone ade t migh . t _evince to them, and one tw of o r c e re ; they were . entirely different, as the m s a sen o se levi t t a in t g h for the country as of it, and the prospective application would enable all history parties to arrange it between themselves; but he hoped allusion had been thatp rtoasele that he should not undergo what ho considered the de- it was. There wa gradation of hearing, in that House, as an argument, agreed ; but he could not advise ,n i i sl w a h te ic for h a e that they would adopt a principle not sound in itself, and country as it was instead of what it ought to be, A w s as l not which would not answer in England, because ther e was t h e way to i mprove and benefit that country, a passive resistance which they dare not encounter. H e as th e y re f use d to ass i milate the poor-law of England was not aware that he need trespass further upon their and Ireland, so l ong wou ld d i scord continue ; they might Lordships' attention in advocating the amendment of be twins, but they never would be twin sisters. which he had given notice. He had shortly put forth Earl WICKLOW had always maintained the princi• what he conceived to be its recommendation—its encou- ple that the rates should be paid by the occupier and not 1 ragement of labour—and that which would be fatal to by the tenant ; but although he supported such an its rejection, namely, that in future it brought the in- amendment at the time the poor-law was passed, he terest of the landlord and tenant to one dead level, and considered that the present moment was most inexpe would remove that mass of pauperism which threatened client to introduce it. It would cause muck bitterness the available resources of the country, and the o n ly between landlord and tenant, and would materially pre means of providing for which was the diminution of that vent the proper and desirable carrying out of the urea tenacity with which the tenant in Ireland clung to the sure. These were sufficient reasons to induce him to occupation of his wretched plot of land, and the esta- vote against the clause. blishment of an independent body of labourers, apart The Archbishop of DUBLIN rose amidst loud cries of from the farmers. He did not think, unless his measure " question" to address their Lordships. He should not was adopted, they could prevent that which support the amendment of the Noble Lord ; but at the was acting as a continual flame in this country against same time he admitted that his principles were right and Ireland—namely, the influx of a large body of labourers. sound.—(Hear, hear.) Still he believed that the plan So lung as the rate of wages was higher here than there, he proposed could not, in the present state of things in so long would that influx take place. He did not ask Ireland, be carried out. He was most desirous that the them to consider the measure with selfish eyes, for their Bill should have a fair trial, and he was roost anxious, sin would be visited on their own shoulders, and a retri- therefore, not to throw difficulties in the way of its butive infliction upon this country. Let them consider working. He thought, as lie had said, that the clause the question as judges deciding a question of life or proposed a healthy and a correct system of rating ; death, and he asked no more for the Irish landlord and but still, in the present state of Ireland, for the Irish labourer. It was such a measure, and such he conceived that the rate must after all a measure only, that could be effectual for this country be paid by the landlords. But he feared that the poor or for Ireland.--(Cheers.) tenants of Ireland were not either in a fit condition of The Marquis of LANSDOWNE (who during his purse or mind to be induced to believe if they paid the speech was frequently quite inaudible) said that he mites, that they would not be called upon to pay them would venture to state to their Lordships that of all the again. He cited a case i n w hi c h 1,600/. a year was saved differences which th e y h a d h a d i n th e course of that ar- by' the guardians of a parish by the adoption of a better gument on this important bill, the difference which the arid more direct mode of paying the rates. Alth oug h the most present judicious state t that amendment o f hi s N o bl e F r i en d h a d ma d e was the he considered that the e e plan is t o f the tena n t s p ay i ng the most important. H e sa id t h a t not i n re f erence to re.te was the best, h the particular cons id era ti on a d ver t e d to at t h e outset could be adopted, he could es n , andcl,in in the speech of the Noble Lord, on an observation made Ireland, consent to the insertion of such a clause into upon a previous occasion. He was far from thinking the Bill. that the consideration arising out of the privileges of the Lord REDESDALE said he could hardly b reconcile the two Houses of Parliament, ought to be disregarded , extraordinary argument which bad been against Yet, leaving that as a subject of a subsequent consider- the proposition of his Noble Friend, becartiosught: ation, he did wish to meet the Noble Lord fairly, and told that the principle was correct, but that from were tle discuss this amendment upon its own merits, exclusive state of Ireland it could not safely be carried our. m No of any external consideration. The Noble Lord had thing could be more safe or more simple than the pay stated that he had no hesitation in stating that the re- went of the rate by the tenants. Why, if a tenant had jection of this clause would prove disastrous in its con- hud a lease granted to him in which, for instance 3s. 6d. sequences to both countries ; yet, he as confidently in the pound was deducted on account of the rates which stated, that it was its adoption which would be he, would have to pay, where was the hardship that would productive of these effects to Ireland ; and to be imposed upon him, and where was the ex the success of the measure, which he was justi- traordinary advantage which the landlords obtain— fied in saying, was approved of by a great Much had been said, and, in fact, many Noble Lords number of their Lordships. Those of their Lordships he.d argued the measure as if that was the sole ground of who were most opposed to the principle of this Bill, had the measure, namely, the immigration of poor from Ire allowed many of the objections to the clauses which were land to Liverpool ; but if they wanted to keep them in most objectionable to pass without dividing upon it, and Ireland they must afford them some encouragement by even the Noble Lord himself said that he was one, and providing them the means of lucrative employment and he was desirous of this Bill passing into a law. He by making it to the interest of the landlords to afford begged their Lordships to consider what was the cha- them the employment they stood so much in need of. ratter of this Bill, and that it required extensive ma- Much might be done in this respect by leaving the onus chinery to be created, for the assistance of the board of of the rates on the landlord and charging him a smaller guardians. The principles of the present Bill were en- rent. He would thus be spurred to use exertions to im tirely consonant with the principle of a measure adopted prove his soil and to realise greater profits. In Scotland by their Lordships five or six years ago, and which, during the rates were paid by the tenants, and the greatest ad that time had been found to work well.—(Cheers.) vantage was derived from the plan there adopted. The effect of this measure would be to throw the bur- Lord ROSEBERY explained the nature of the past den of the rating entirely upon the tenant, instead of and present poor-law of Scotland. imposing it equally upon all classes. He asked the Lord CLANCARTY said that, although he entirely Noble Cord to reflect a little before he imposed burdens concurred in the clause proposed by the Noble Lord, of this sort upon the tenants of the country. The and was convinced that they were indispensably neces- Noble Lord had stated that they ought to allow them- sary, he yet noticed that as the House had not yet gone selves to be influenced by the impression which any the length of stating, that they would confide a discre measure was likely to produce. He thought that such tionary power to the boards of guardi ans , or t h at the a principle was not calculated to assist any Goverment first clause should be carried into effect—that no assist in carrying out its measures,—for some regard for the anceon either side would be expected from hint. Heshould impression that any measure was likely to produce, was leave the matter to the House unaided by any vote of his a isolutely indispensable.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble The measure was in the details inconsistent, as those Lord had stated, that the burden would be dis- clauses which referred to the system of relief to be tributed equally by his measure, and which would given were temporary, while the provisions for rating remove much of the odium attached to the were of a permanent character. The existence of these Bill, by the proceedings of the Government. two provisions in one measure was an inconsistency That odium did not attach itself to the measure in cos- which he could not feel himself justified in supporting. sequence of any fault of the Government. They stated He felt :much reluctance in withholding his vote, but that they were about to impose a burden upon the coun- still upon the present oecasion he felt it to be his duty try, and naturally it was not received with any degree to do so. of pleasure, and it only rema i ned for the Government to Lord STANLEY said that there had been, no doubt, protect the tenant against any undue exercise of power in that discussion much which had given him the deepest by the landlord. A new system of valuation of the land pain and anxiety. There was not one of their Lord had been introduced into the country, and with that and ships who in the course of that discussion had an other remedies he thought that sufficient good would be noaneed their determination to vote against his amend produced without adding to this measure —(which they merit, who had questioned the soundness of the admitted to be attended with some degree of uncertainty,) principle upon which it was founded. The kind the further danger incurred by the motion of nests with which their Lordships had listened to the Noble Lord. It was the desire of the Noble him that evening would be a strong inducement to Lord, as he stated, to t conciliate the p eop l e , hi m not to trespass upon t h e i r at t en ti on f or any length and yet he attempted iby affording a further of time, yet he must still bring a few points under the facility for the infliction of taxation of the people. He attention of their Lordships. It bad been stated that corn elled in the Irish Poor-law had for the last five or six years worked well, but what was the Irish Poor-law?--(Hear, hear.) It had been during that time strictly confined to relief within the workhouse and to the destitute poor. His argument was that it was the occupier of land in Ireland who had the power of employing labour, and as it was by the employment of the poor that the poor-rate could be kept down, some inducement must be given to them to reduce it as much as possible. He would sub mit that point to their Lordships, and also that of the principle of out-door relief, for in the course of the de bate those arguments had remained untouched. He felt most deeply that they were about to adopt for a permanent legislation a mischievous and a dangerous principle, and when they laid down this law for Ireland they gave it a mischievous principle for its guidance and operation. Reference had been made to the poor-law of Scotland, where there could be no comparison, for out-door relief was not known to the Scotch law, and the landlord and tenant might make any agreement they pleased with reference to which of them should pay the rate charged, while it was a serious infraction:ot the law to do so in Ireland. He regretted that he should be compelled to differ from so many of those with whom he had ever acted, and he yet more deeply lamented the language and tone which had been used on this occasion. lie regretted that the majority of their Lordships' House were opposed to the principle which he wished to introduce in the Bill. Whatever might be the fate of this question, he could assure their Lordships that no personal consideration would prevent him from doing his duty. He trusted that those who had done him the honour to support him on this question, and whose sen timents coincided with his own, would not think that he exercised an unwise discretion in not giving their Lord ships the trouble of an unnecessary division. He should, however, feel it his duty, for form's sake, and for that only, to move this amendment on bringing up the report on the Bill. He would do this in his own justification, and in order that it might appear upon the journals of the House that this amendment had been made. The Archbishop of DUBLIN explained. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE denied that the principle contended for by the Noble Lord opposite was acceded to by t h e advocates of this measure ; and he would have taken an earlier opportunity of proving this, did he not see that the Noble Lord appeared to have overlooked that a large majority of that House was op posed to the principles which he wished to lay down. Lord MONTEAGLE moved that the Bill be reported on in its present shape. Lord CAMPBELL said, that in all his experience he had never heard or seen a motion like that just moved by the Noble Lord ; and he was convinced that neither in the Irish nor in the English Parliament could they find a precedent for it. It was the rule that a Bill should be reported in the state in which it was to be passed in a law. Yet he found that in the first four clauses of this Bill two were limited in duration, and two were left so far unfinished that they were with out limitation, reminding him very forcibly of Sir Walter Scott's Melrose by moonlight. Buttress and buttress alternately seemed framed of ebon and ivory There appeared to be a strange misunderstanding be tween the Noble Lords on this side, who opposed this measure, and the Noble Lord opposite, for while one pro posed to limit the operation of the measure to the Ist January, 1849, the other proposed that it should be limited to 1850. Lord MONTEAGLE then moved, that the operation of the clauses authorising out-door relief to the able bodied poor should be limited (as we understood) to the first of January 1849. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then proposed that the clause limiting the operation of the Act should be inserted in the Bill for the information of the House; and at the time of bringing up the report the Government would feel themselves at perfect liberty to adot an course which they might think proper with respect to that subject. The Earl of WICKLOW complained that the Noble Lord had adopted the amendment which he had pro ip)sed to move, and he hardly knew what course he was now to adopt. He thought the only course for him to pursue, would be to bring forward his amendment, when the amendment of his Noble Frivnd had been disposed o£ After a few words from Earl FITZ WILLIAN, and Earl GREY, The Archbishop of DUBLIN said that he thought the object of the amendments of the Noble Lord was to make one portion of the Bill of a temporary, and the other, of a permanent character ; he had always ex pressed opinions unfavourable to a system of out-door relief to the able-bodied poor, and it wag because he entertained these unfavourable opinions, that he pro posed that that portion of the Bill authorising out-door relief to the able-bodied poor would be of a temporary character ; while the other principle involved in the Bill, not being of a new character, and involving no new principle, should be considered as permanent. The Marquis of WESTMEATH thought it nothing more than fair that the system of out-door relief for the able-bodied poor should be allowed a trial before the measure was made a permanent one. After a short discussion, the clause was agreed to. After some desultory conversation, the House re sumed, and the report was ordered to ,be brought up on Friday next. _ _ Their Lordships then adjourned, at a quarter par eleven o'clock. •• HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 10. DISCOUNT ON LOANS. Mr. MASTERMAN said that nothing in the proposi tion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been stated which was calculated to alleviate the feeling of uneasiness that exists in the commercial world. In fact there ought , to have been a joint consent between the Government and the Bank. The arrangement made by the Right Hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer would I simply be taking a sum out of the Bank, in order to place the Exchequer in the situation in which the :esheeGo vernment ought to b e p l aced without suc h an effort. It was not to be expected that at these several quarterly period s of two or three millions of deficiency that th e B ank should advance the money without some G overnment surety, and he would there foreti propos e some addition to the resolution which the Chancellor t atohtfeattthhte}: Ethe et e a e t ts ought to be obtained by some other means, and he would : tit r e e h o a fi d nt p ht i r bs o e p a o pd s dreeidet.ieonnt Iwould his be y that the Committee were of opinion that nothing would tend so much t o relieve the present pressure on the money mark e t as an assurance from the Chancellor of the Excheq uer to Parliament nt that he had arranged with the Bauk for an advanc e out o f the •ue department of the Bank, s uc h a d vance to be repaid out of the public securities like th e remainder of the loan. Mr. GREENE conceived that the Hon. Gentleman was not competent to move the amendment, inasmuch as the motion for going into the Committee of the whole e interest House wa s f or ra i s i ng th on the loan in the future instalments. Mr. MASTERMAN said that he hadshown that the amendment was part of the • Mr. BROWN was proceeding. House wh en l ou d cr i es co mmencing co his address to the Speak out " were heard from several sides of th e House, and the Hon er stated that his voice was so weak that he could n M ot emb exert him. self more than he did, and then -- proceeded to say that one portion of the nation was not consistent with the other. They were aware that in the export and import trade there was at the present moment great distress. Much effort had been made in the provinces, and he be lieved that part of the object of the present motion was to relieve the depression of foreign trade. No confi dence whatever was felt in the United States, and though there were large orders at this time in Liverpool, there was no sufficient inducement to send out the goods. The case was the same in the interior among the manufac turers, and in Manchester there was the utmost uneasiness prevalent in the several houses with respect to the imports and the exports, and busi ness had indeed assumed a very serious aspect. The condition of the country was this. The business of the country was stopped, and day by day thousands of her manufacturing labourers were being thrown out of employment. It was a fallacy to tell him that there was not sufficient money to carry on the business. At pre • sent there were from thirty to forty millions of sovereigns in circulation, and if a portion of that amount were called in, and . one-pound notes substituted for it, there would be amply sufficient gold placed at the disposal of Government -to enable it to relieve the country from the prevailing depression without touching upon the principle of , the Bill of the Ri g ht Hon. Baronet opposite. Dlr. NE WDEGATE felt it to be his duty to state that he had long predicted that the result of the mea sure of 1844 would be what it had been so graphically described. It was impossible that any other result could happen, for there was no practical man in the country who did not agree with him, that his anticipations would be fully justified. Let them, however, not incur greater future danger by their endeavours to escape from the past. He was of opinion that an issue of bullion accord. ing to the present standard could not be maintained. On a fair calculation the issue was twice as much AS the bullion remaining in the bank. In 1798, the standard of Elizabeth, which was silver, was altered to gold. lie had the high authority of Lord Ashburton for such a state ment, and that silver standard was one of which the me mory of man did not run to the contrary, The Right Hon. Baronet was in error, therefore, when he said that the present standard was the one of Queen Elizabeth. He could not help feeling—when he saw the Right Hon. Baronet prepared to pass the mighty measure of free trade in the last year, and, at the same time, determined to maintain a system of currency adverse to that advo • cated by the advocates of free trade--that the people of this country were about to be exposed not only to a foreign competition, but a heavy pressure r in thei monetary difficulties. By their present system, accord ing to the words of the member for Lancashire, they must either send their gold abroad or starv e the people. One of the greatest dangers that could b e f all the min_ try was to permit to have any power over th e Bank of England ; it would give the executive a despotic in fluence which they ought never , to posse ss; i t would give them a control over every man s property in England, which was a power which they should never permit either to be held or exercised. He hoped that the noble Government lord at the head of the would deeply consider this matter,_ hi although he might be compromised by s former votes and although he may be anxious to retain the assistance of those who were still more deeply compromised, to act like an honest man, as h e believed h e would, and save the country from the evils pr essin g upon it. Whenever they sought assistance, either from the pressure of the supplie s home market, or the neces sity forabroad, they were met by this Act of 1844- For years hi mself and friends had laboured against policy, that and it w as w i t h no exultation that they found their fears realised now. The Hon. Member proceeded to read extracts from speeches of Sir Robert reel delivered_ in 1819 an d 1 844, to show that the effect contemplated by the m easures had not been realised. With the fact b e f ore them of the Chancellor of the Exchequer advancing the discount on Government bills, with the mills and workshops standing idle, and yet tit the same time W ile mama A. IP 11 1 1847. of gold in the Bank, he thought it was high time to retrace their steps. Could they forget that in 1833, without the assistance of the Bank of France they would have stopped payment; and that, on another oc casion the Bank having only 600,0001. in gold, and 420,0004 in silver, applied to Mr. Rothschild to change the silver, and by which ho cleared, it was alleged, 100,0001. He trusted these circumstances would lead them to reconsider the course they had been pursuing. and place the currency on a better foundation in future. Mr. FORBES wished to say a few words as it re garded Scotland. In 1843 they were a contented people, but ever since the passing of the Bill of 1844, they had suffered the greatest difficulties, arising from the ope ration of the measure, and he trusted it would be re pealed. He could not see how the law should be altered in regard to corn and other produce, and gold be made an exception. He submitted that gold should be placed on the same footing as any other thing that was con tinually changing in value, and he called on the Chan cellor of the Exchequer and the Government to reconsi der the question, arid have the subject fully investigated with the f obj yet of effecting a remedy. Mr. FINCH said it was no matter what a currency was made of; provided it fulfilled the function of distri bution. The bee, form of currency for this country was a properly restricted paper currency, because it would then protect the commercial interest of the country from such pressures as that under which it was now suffering, by affording the amplest facilities for the interchange of commodities. If, however, they continued the pre sent system, none of the speculators would venture to send out for corn, and the people would be starved. He did, therefore, hope that Government would take this matter into their serious consideration. Already ruin was impending over the manufacturing community, but still the pressure had not yet reached its height, and it was the opinion of all parties, that if Government were at once to take decisive steps, the commercial world might be restored to a healthy position. Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said it appeared to him that the proposal of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would go but a little way to improve the state of the country, though it might in some degree relieve the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself from immediate and pressing demands. ahe Right Hon. Gentleman had not told them whether the contractors for the loan were prepared to accept the dis count he had named. It was certainly below the amount now required for goods bills, which had only 60 days to run, and whatever might be the anticipations of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he very much feared Govern ment must yet have further recourse to the coffers of the Bank of England. The Right Honourable Gen tleman had told them that the money market was easier now than it was a abort time back, but when it was remembered that wheat had reached the high price of 120 s. per quarter ; that the stocks on hand were exceedingly low; that the importation of corn and cotton was considerably above the quantities im ported in the corresponding period in former years, it was not unnatural to suppose that the drain of bullion would not cease for some time to come without recourse were had to some legislative enactment. If, therefore, Government were anxious to prevent the gold in the country from being exported the present law must be continued, but, then, what must be the result of that continuance ? Why, it would have a tendency to keep up prices, reduce supplies, and still further depress trade. The exchanges with America were against Eng land, while the exports were falling off to au enormous extent, and unless something were done instantly the price of corn must rise and the drain of bullion become greater. The prospects of the supply of provisions from Ireland were very bad if not exhausted, for from a re turn which he held in his hand he perceived that in December last, 15,000 dead pigs were sold in the Cork market, as against 3,000 in the corresponding period of the previous two years. It was sufficiently plain, therefore, that the country must depend for its supplies upon foreign sources. Now this state of things had not been brought about, as in the year 1825, by over-speculation on the part of the people, but it was attributable to the system pursued by Government. Out of 161,000 mills in the manufacturing districts, 728 were either working short time, or not working at all, and as that circumstance alone would have a ten dency considerably to reduce the exports, he confessed he did not look for a speedy return of the gold which had gone out of the country. Money must, therefore, of necessity rise in price, and, in addition to the manu facturing labourers thrown out of employment, it was clear, that unless something were done, most of the new railway companies must reduce their operations, and throw an immense number of labourers out of work. Now this distressing state of affairs could not be attributed to want of money, because it was well known that the coffers of the Bank of England, although locked up, were full, and all that was wanted to restore prosperity, was to set the credit of the Bank and the country ..at liberty. The position of men of the highest credit was at the present time most perilous, and he was assured, on the highest authority, that be fore a month elapsed, many of them would be obliged to stop payment, in consequence of the present difficul ties. He was informed, on the best authority, that one house in Lancashire, which had no less than 60,0001. in bullion, were unable to carry on their business. Was not this, then, a monstrous state of things, that they were obliged to prevent the importation of food, and to starve the bellies of the people for the purpose of keeping up the Bank Restriction Act of 1844. Mr. O'Connell said in the course of last winter that rapidity in the supply of food was with regard to Ireland the essence of humanity and of political saga city. lie fully agreed with him, and called upon the Government to have no longer recourse to temporary measures, but to proceed at once is a rapid and effective manner to procure food for the people, otherwise far more disastrous results would take place than they had hitherto witnessed. The famine would visit their own shores, and he now called upon the Government to look to the great interests of this country—which were not limited to cotton speculators or to railway promoters. Those who were walking in the steadiest manner in the legitimate pursuits of trade, would be involved in the general ruin. Those who traded to the east, and those who traded to the west, had to suffer in the impending distress. From all the indica tion of the late elections in the United States, it would appear that the tariff of America would become more restrictive than it was at present, and he very much feared that America would not be disposed to adopt those free-trade measures which had brought this country to such a crisis. Russia, also, that formerly could not go to war, unless the Barings and Rothschild* Caine to her assistance, had shown no symptoms of meeting this country on free-trade principles. He trusted, therefore, that her Majesty's Government would imitate the example of the great Ministers of this country who had preceded them in power, and would come forward with measures to take off the present monetary restrictions; and would also make an advance of Exchequer -bills to meet the embarrassments of the country. He hoped they would not persevere with the Act of 1844, and he was highly gratified to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. reel) say;that no feelings of pater nity would induce him to advocate its continuance if it proved to be mischievous in its operation. Now he (Lord G. Bentinck) thought that this dangerous opera tion was discernible in the complicated embarrassments in which they were at present involved, and that all these indications were grounds, at any rate, for the suspension of the Act. The Noble Lord then cited some statistics to show that the Bill would become more restrictive in future than it was at present. With regard to the conduct of former Ministers, he found that in 1793 Mr. Pitt came foward with 5,000,000 of Exchquer-bills to relieve the then monetary pressure of the country. In 1816, when there were 2,000 bankruptcies, cash payments were postponed; and in 1819 further relaxations were afforded. In like manner in 1825, and in 1826, Mr. Huskisson issued a number of bank notes to relieve the embarrass. ments in which the country was then involved. Lately the Bank of France was much in the same predicament as they were at present, and it got 800,0001. as a loan from this country, which greatly relieved the pressure under which they laboured. To show the effect of this credit to the Bank of France he would just state that 200,000/., the last instalment of the 800,0001, had never been called upon, as the pressure ceased to be felt. Now, if the same system of credit was applied to this country, he had no doubt that the same results would follow. They had now three years' experience of the Bank Charter Act, and they found that its influence was most injurious, and that, like the barren fig tree in the vine yard, it deserved no other fate than to be destroyed for its unproductiveness. Mr. CARDWELL said, he could not but coincide with the Hon. Gentleman who had addressed the House, that when an Act had been passed, and had been found to be impracticably inoperative that then the time for its repeal had arrived. The Noble Lord opposite, who had vot e d f or t h e Bill when it was broughtforward would allow him to say, that those who heard his pre mises must have been most grievously disappointed at the conclusions to which he had arrived. He (Mr. Cardwell) had heard that Noble Lord make statements in which he concurred, though he totally differed from the results which he drew from those statements. That Noble Lord had said that he saw no reason why the pre sent distress should be permanent. All his suggestions had been directed to the circulation of the currency. He believed that those who directed their attention to this subject would find it to be the fact that they never would be able to extract any artificial advantages they might arrive at.—(Year, hear.) Adam Smith had likened the currency to a wheel, which in its course spun round anything that was placed upon it. They had a certain quantity of articles, and currency was the wheel that bore them round. What was the cause of the pressing under which they laboured ? Not long ago they had bad harvests. This country undertook, under an intoxication, to execute larger works than it or any other country was capable of performing at that time. The predictions of the time had been realised, and the country was labouring under the effects of that intoxication. He found that the Bank of England at the time had not contracted its issue at that time when the danger began, and when considerable as sistance was demanded. He thought, in the respect to currency, that in the first instance they should have truthfulness for their standard, and in the next instance economy in its application. With regard to the first they had adopted a measure which was merely a complement of a preceding measure, namely, that of 1839. A temptation had been offered to individuals which was too great for individual pru dence, and circulation was increased at the very m oment when it should have been diminished. But they were in great danger, therefore it was a mistake t o say that there was any new principle in the Bill of 1844. The effect of that Bill was to drain the gold in the country, which went into the private coffers of the bankers of England and Ireland. That Bill had saturated the coun try with gold. It was now said that that Bill had done much mischief because it contracted cgirocidulattihoe;n He contended that if they send diminished the circulating medium of the country. H e thought, therefore, that the effect of the measure would be the di rec t reverse of what was asserted. After a few words from gr. BROWN, Mr. BARING said that he could not concur with the Hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the House (Mr. Cardwell). Other countries wanted corn, other is countries importing were it, b importing a France there i is notwant sance such astate a nd ,. financial difficulty. It might be said, that it was the metallic circulation in France which effected this, true it was that there was a larger proportion of metallic currency there tha n in this c o untry, they had eighty millions of gold for fifteen millions of paper, while we have thirty millions of paper to fifty millions of gold. With regard to railways, he was one of those who believed that railways had been carried to too great an extent. At the same time he did not underrate the great advantages of the economy of labour, and the develop ment of the resources of the country which were obtained from it.—(Hear, hear.) People had invested their money in securities, which were unavoidable, and there fore he was of opinion that railway enterprise had been carried too far; but there had been other times when there had been speculation twice as great, but there never ht.s been such a want of power to meet the engagements of the day. It was not the Bank of England which had mismanaged the matter. He did not mean to say that the reduction of interest was not a wise measure ; he believed that it was. It there was any principle in the charter of 1844, it was this, that the bank should in crease its paper circulation in proportion to the bullion in its coffers. Tbere may have been want of discretion, but it was not such a want which produced this monetary pressure ; he believed that therealcause of it sprung from the limitation of the powers of the bank. The very tact of a limitation, produced the evil. He did not take any part in the discussion which arose on the Bank charter, as he did not feel himself competent to enter upon the subject of what should be the currency of the country. He did not mean to set himself against high authorities. but he would state a fact, that for ten days there was an impossibility to obtain money under any pre tences, and all from the want of power in the Bank. Well, then, ought not these facts to be taken into consideration by those who were the advocates of this proposition. There were sixty thousand pounds of silver, and not one shilling could be raised upon it; its owners sent to the bank to buy it, the back refused; it dare not, in consequence of its limita tion. They might say then, why not send to Hamburgh or Paris? But bills of a fortnight were even refused to be discounted. Did they wish to keep an unnecessary amount of bullion in the bank, until they could see how far the screw had to be driven until the whole commercial interest of the country was shaken to its centre ? They wished by the charter to make trade secure and certain, why they would make it the greatest lottery in the world, if they made money bear three per cent, in April, and in August thirteen per cent. — (Hear, hear.) There was undoubtedly a great pressure, and they might make it a panic if they refused to grant facilities to commerce. The Bank of England should have power to borrow of other countries, and not borrow in our own market ; where, the very fact of it so doing, only increases the scarcity.—(Hear, hear.) He thought, under the nresent circumstances, that the Government ought to have the privilege of extending the issues upon securities, so as to admit of its granting larger accommodation to the trading classes, He did not blame the Government for the present difficulties which had arisen, only so far as the policy they bad supported h a d contributed to this result. They had gone on step by step to take duties off a variety of arti cles, and so long as business was good all operated well; but now they found a falling revenue and a disordered market, with difficulties of such a character as to force the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take the course which he had that night proposed. He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman would havepursuedawisercourse if he had not taken thenarrow view ofaneedy Chancellor with an empty Exchequer, but had take n t h e w id e and com prehensive range of all the great interests of the country, in the proposal of some large measure to relieve the pressure which at present existed.—(Cheers.) Sir GEORGE CLERK could not agree with the Hon. Member that the present monetary difficulties of the country were attributable to the measure of 1844. Under such a system as would satisfy the Hon. Gentleman, there would be continual danger of over issues of paper as no test of any paper that might be issued would exist, but the alleged solvency of the issuer. The surplus ca pital of the country was not an unlimited quantity which could be increased to any extent by an issue of notes, but it was limited by the real produce in the country which was forthcoming for distribution. This regulated the disposable capital of the country. This year they had had a scarcity of food, perhaps to the extent of twenty or thirty millions. Other nations were suffering from the same cause. There had also been large investments in railways. The effect of all these causes was to restrict the disposable fund for the pur poses of trade arid the employment of the people. He could not see how this evil could be lessened by the relaxation of the present system, and allowing the banks to discount bills with their notes. Were this so, the bullion would be all driven from the country, and a general monetary crisis would take place like those of 1826 and 1839. Though the issue of one pound notes might induce a short period of prosperity, the day of reckoning would eventually come, and the distress then be far greater than it could be under the present system. The only safe founda tion for a currency was a metallic basis, and not one of paper. Certain he was that the measure of 1844 was not the cause of the difficulties. Under these circumstances he very much regretted that a debate should have arisen on the Bank Charter Bill. The llon. Member for Huntingdon held a high position in the commercial world, and if it were true, as the Hon. Gentleman represented, that that measure had produced such distressing results, it was his duty to move that it be repeated, in order that Parliament and the country might have an opportunity of expressing an opinion on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the question of the currency, the value of a pound had long been settled, and it would be unwise, nay, it would entirely break up the commercial relations of the country, if they attempted to re-open that questiou. The present distress was to be traced to one natural cause, namely, the country had undertaken too many heavy works, and, like an individual who attempt to do more than he had the means to ac complish, it had overreached itself. The fact was, the country had embarked in too many railways, and they must wait with patience till it had recovered its former flourishing condition. Tampering with the currency would only aggrevate the evil, and he therefore trusted the House would adopt none of the suggestions which had been thrown out upon the subject, but leave it for time and the natural course of things to restore the coun try to a state of prosperity. Mr. DISRAELI was glad the Hon. Member for Hun tingdon had not made the motion of the Right Hon. Ba ronet the Member for Stamford, because such a motion could have nothing to do with the question before the Committee, and therefore would not have been entitled to their consideration. The Hon. Gentleman, the Mem ber for Clitheroe, had touched upon all those subjects, which he seemed to think they ought not to treat of. The Hon. Gentleman had laid down certain principles for the establishment of a sound currency, which might he difficult to challenge, but which certainly had no re ference whatever to the circumstances with which the 3 had to deal. The Hon. Gentleman also passed a very warm panygeric upon the Bill of 1844, which had ii been discussed would have at once decided the question they were discussing. The Hon. Gentleman told them that the object of this Bill was to saturate England with gold. That might have been the object of the Bill, but the truth was, there was more gold in the country in Sep tember, 1844, than there had been subsequently to thepass ing of the Bill. The Hon. Gentleman then endeavoured to trace the present depression is the commercial world to the fact, of the alarm not having been earlier taken. Now he maintained that they had no right whatever to criticise the conduct of the Bank. The Act of 1844 de fined its functions. By that Act they invented for the regulation of the Bank a machinery that was almost as perfect as the sliding-scale itself. The regulations for the issuing department were enunciated by the Minister. I matured by the House, and received by the country, and they bad therefore no right to criticise the conduct of. the Bank, Itecause that conduct had been defined by themselves. Oh ! but the Hon Member for Clitheroe said the Bank did not take the alarm early enough. Well, it was true in the month of August last the Bank reduced the rate of interest, but he wanted to know what there was then in the country which should have made the bank look with any alarm to the future. It had almost an unprece dented amount of treasure in its possession —he believed perhaps the largest amount they possessed for the last two years or two years and a halt before. It was in a position to command the precious metals throughout the land, and being placed in that position, the bank had a right to suppose that it was justified in assisting every well founded commercial movement. True, it might have heard of a Member of that House moving that the ports should be opened; but did the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth or the Government give the proposal their sanction. The bank, too, might have heard of other Hon. Members complaining of the coming scarcity, but their complaints were put down by the Government, and therefore the Bank had no cause to look with alarm to the future. He wanted to know whether that document, which no one could falsify, and which any one could appeal to—he wanted to know whether it was not a sufficient justifica tion of the Bank of England ? There, however, was the Act of 1844 in a state of distress, and, as a cry must be found to come to the rescue, it was found to be the Bank of England.—(Hear, and cheers.) The charge of imprudence on the Bank was first made by the Hon. Member for Tamworth, and was reechoed by the Mem ber for Clitheroe, and it was asserted on all sides that it did not take precaution in time. He denied. however, that these allegations were true, for had it not been for the foresight of that body in reducing the rate of interest in the course of last summer, they would not now be in a condition to meet the crisis in which the country was at present involved—their merchants would not have scoured all parts of the earth for supplies of food —they would not have been able to procure 6,000,000 quarters of wheat to meet their own deficiencies —they would not now be exporting large quantities of Corn to France— nor, would the exchanges ia Europe be influenced in their favour.—(Hear, hear.) And though that Act had been so political, so sagacious stand so beneficial in its opera tion, it appeared from statements that had been made in that House that the Bank of England was the great criminal, and all iNufon the authority of the Right I H i eovne.d Gentlemanif the Aet ember for Tamworth. He be- House was properly examined the House might be led to a result highly beneficial to the H u se What appeared to him to be imputable to it was that it could not prevent any of the mischief that arose out of the system which was previously in exist ence, but it could and did prevent the benefits which sprung from that system. It failed in every object that it held out. In the first 'place they were told that it would prevent anything like the financial disturbance and disorders, that were called by the name of panic. Now, it was a consequence of the embarrassment of 1836 and 1839, that the Holm wa led to pass the measure; but he maintained, that if the Bill had been ins trodueed before 1836 or 1839, that the disturbances which then took place, would have really occurred ; and ho would show that by the records of tneir own House. The bullion in the Bank at the commencement of the difficulties in the former year, was 8,000,0004, which, in the course of one month, it fell to 3,900,0001. Now, if the Bank had been controled (that was the word) the same results would have followed. The Hon. Gentleman then read a statement of the amount of bullion and the amount of circulation of the Bank of England during those periods-, which, he said, a m ply, completely, an d indubitably proved,. that had the Bank Act of 1844 been then in operatio n , it would have had no effect in preventing or mitigating the embarrassments which then occurred. Then with retard to controlling the exercise of the discretion of the Bank, this Act would not have prevented the evil of 1836. During the drain of 1839, the Bank was obliged to raise its discount to 6 i i, , , e r r a c n e e n e t t la s. t n i t t l w it a w s a s s a,ed io_ryl f - r b o s m . agen cy t s h t e oppl np a g o y f the Bank of see what would have been ti e result if themseknett.ofNlBo4W4, had been then in operation. The circulation of the Bank would have been nearly the sam e as it really saw It appeared therefore rertectly clear that she Act of 1844 would have operatsd no sensible difference.in 1836 or 1839. Now, with regard to the fluctuation of notes, with regard to the bullion in the Bank, that was another part of th e o ffi ce o f t h a t A c t ; b u t it vi the facts h e h a d b e f ore hi m t h at t hi s relative had never been m a i n t a i ne d. O n th e 21 s t of Septensber, o . uld ap p pe o a p r or from 1844, after the passing of the Act, the huilion in She Bank was 15,100,000/., and the circulation wets 9 0,600,000/. But at the close of the year the bullion was 14,800,000/., and the circulation fell to 20.100,0001. In January of 1845, the bullion was 14,500,0001. and the circulati on 20,600, 000 1 ., and three months alter the bul lion rose to 16,200,0001., while the circulation remained exactly the same. So that while the bullion increased two millions the circulation remained the same as it was at the previous return. Now, he wanted to know, if this Act had no power to control the fluctuation? All must own that it had failed in the objects which it pro fessed ; then how could it be proposed to retain it any longer on the statute book ? They all knew the pre sent state of affairs, bordering, as they did, on bank ruptcy; and the way in which the Bank of England was fettered from giving relief in this emergency. With these facts, therefore, before them, he wanted to know what plea could be argued for the continuance of this Act. It had failed in every respect ; it had failed in exercising any control in the discretionary power of the Bank of England; and it had equally failed in regulating the proportion between the fluctuation of notes and bullion. All he desired was, to convey to the House, that this subject was one upon which there could be no second opinion with sane and substantial men. He thought the Hon. Member for Birmingham should not mingle with this subject, matters which were not connected ; and, he would ask Hon. Members, generally, to look to Lombard-street. If the Bill had not produced the benefits it pretended to do, were they to endure the inconveniences it had pro duced? When they could not have a perfect metallic currency they must consider that they had a perfectly worthless currency, and they should not pretend to give the country what no Government could do. In conclu sion, he hoped that the House would not arrive at a crude opinion on this question. He had shown the House that the measure of 1844 was only a delusion. It was a reality only in respect to that treasure which was locked up i n t h e d epartment of issue of the Bank— it' was a reality when the public wanted that treasure to embark in the ordinary operations of commerce; and it was ultimately for the House to decide—and he left it in the hands of the House to decide—whether or no that treasure should continue to be so locked up in the coffers of the Bank, as useless to the people as though it rusted in the bottom of the Thames.—(Hear, hear.) Sir ROBERT PEEL—I wish, Sir, that the phrase in the last sentence of the Hon. Gentleman —that he left the question in the hands of the House—l wish that that phrase were strictly correct. But, unfortunately, the Hon. Gentleman does no such thing, as it is utterly impossible that the House should pronounce any opinion on the matter. I think we are discussing the principle and practice of the currency question in the most incea s s venient manner that we can do. The Right Hon. Gen tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, makes a pro position of which, I must say, I cordially approve. An Hon. Friend of mine attempts an amendment, and he has not an opportunity of explaining himself before there is another proposal, therefore it is very improbable that the House can come to any satisfactory cenclusion. on the subject. Before the House forms any opinion on the propriety of taking some new course with respect to the currency, I hope we shall look at the matter on all sides on the present occasion. I wish the House to consider whether or no this is a small modification of the Bill of 1844, or whether those who press but for that small modification do not seek to open the door for some subver sion of that measure. My Honourable Friend near me proposes that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should give ihm an assurance that he will not draw upon the Bank in case of deficiency. But that is a very small measure. Supposing, however, the Right Hon. Gentleman able to give him the assurance that in July he will not require any assistance from the Bank —if he would give him that assurance, my Hon. Friend would be content to permit the Bill of 1844 to remain. My Hon. Friend thinks that the Government would act wisely in taking the course most likely to enable them to dispense with the aid of the Bank when the next quar ter's dividend becomes due. That is the proposal of my Hon. Friend. He who leads the City bankers has no other proposition to make than that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should give an assurance that he won't ask the Bank to lend him any assistance. My Hon. Friend desires that for this purpose the Bank of Eng land should be allowed to issue notes upon the amount of deficiency bills. Mr. MASTERAINN—Out of the issue department. Sir R. PEEL—Out of the issue department! That is a different proposal from what was submitted by my Hon. Friend. Mr. MASTERMAN wished to be allowed to explain. powercs s e • hat llt, r othisfo enable hn r ae o b p El o e s x a t ch l he r , reallßankyr e s t • haoos take. ul l d t a w mp a po s i r t . e h yt i os out , P t h a a rol t fi a t thmheeeCni issue safuoner department, and allow it to be replaced by the growing revenue, leaving the banking departmen t to manage it self.—(Hear, hear.) Sir R. PEEL—I thought I heard something from my Hon. Friend that it would be desirable that the Chan cellor of the Exchequer should give an aswaranee to the House that he would not borrow money from the Bank for the purpose of paying the dividends. Mr. NIASTERNIAN—From the banking department. Sir R. PEEL—Yes, the banking department; de cidedly so. There was nothing in the proposal of my Hon. Friend, whatever object he may have contemplated, with respect to issuing notes from the issue department. Then followed the Hon. Member for Montrose-- Mr. MASTERMAN—I must say a word as to what I really did propose, for it does not seem to be properly understood. What I actually did say was, that I thought the proposal submitted by the Chancellor of the Exche quer would tend to alleviate the inconvenience now f .by the public. I did not say that it was the best • sure that could be adopted, but I did conceive modified measure of that kind, going forth with t thority of this House, would be extremely des. under the pressure now existing. My object in the aosal which I made was to remove any demand o' nanking department upon the issue department, e leave the Bank to act upon its own idea of w' right and proper for the national interest, for I e that the Bank had no power under this Bill to grant accommodation to the Chanceli Exchequer without incommoding the public. Sir ROBERT PEEL—My Hon. Friend I firmed my statement, that the proposal he ma that the Chanc e ll or o f t h e E xc h equer should give .. surance that he would not require money from banking department to pay the July dividends. 1 came the Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume). proposal was this—that there should be unlimited 0,. petition in respect to banking. Mr. HITME—Free trade. Sir R. PEEL—That there should be free trade i banking, and that the country banks should be allowed t. issue 54 notes to any amount, but that they should be required to pay their notes in gold. I beg to say, that I do not think the adoption of that proposal would have any tendency to diminish the present pressure. The Hon. Member is satisfied with the general principle of the currency; he only objects to the country banks be ing restricted in their accommodation, and not having imposed upon them the necessity of paying their notes in gold. There was next the proposal of the Hon. Member for South Lancashire (Mr. Brown). That Hon. Member proposed that the Bank of Englandshould be permitted for a limited period to issue 1/. notes, and that they should hereafter be withdrawn. He might de pend upon it, that when permission is once given to the Bank of England to issue 1/. notes in lieu of gold, he would find it exceedingly difficult to persuade the House to retrace its steps, to recal the 1/. notes, and again to gold country.—(H e ar.) T a hen d o itri n s .G bu en te t d throughout lementhe Memberthe cthooaruvnetrya circulation Rutland admitted that his object is an incon vertible paper currency. He sa y s h e would have a limitation of the amount, but that he is in fa vour of such a proposition. That was the third. Then there was the fourth—the member for Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate.) The Hon. Gentleman said he must distinctly deprecate any palliative, or partial measure. (Hear, hear.) He said there was no more in repealing the act of 1844, as the act of 1844 was a natural conse quence B:v aao a rs Mr. Order. He , N ,eg E a v W aenn DsomwEee a G r a : A nd W_ T h E li c hdri answer of the ac t o f 1819, which, he said, was a miser able failure. os distinctly m i dstated ud that cries th o a t f t t h o e 1323 R, Right question H o i n n ou ltzi r IT,: and that as he admitted it was a failure, I thought I would take his authority on the subject, and I did so. Sir R. PEEL—Did not the Hon. Gentleman say that the repeal of the Act of 1844, alone would be merely delusive, and that an attempt to increase the standard imposed by the Act of 1819, was utterly impossible ; that the country could not bear the standard of 1819, and that some entirely new plan mast be introduced. Mr. NEWDEGATE rose again, and said—The Right Hon. Gentleman has misunderstood me in this respect. I said that the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Mont rose, for a strictly convertible bullion vein was incompatible with the standard at present adopted. Sir R. PEEL—Then did the Hon. Member admit that the standard of 1819 could be managed ? Did he not say that he had often heard that it was a new thing to talk of the injury not added to the public burdens ? Did he not caused by the Bill of 1819? Did he not ask me if the standard say that the evils caused by the measure in 1819 iemained and that it was not too late to bring consolation to the of those who might be no more —(laughter)—.but been injure)Ed,wanDdEtGhAatTwEe maugsatinrevrenrssee tab:lts...aura (o,efoitaiurlrdeB.ehir9t:Nrh:dhair;" but be proceeded to saiyd—st of 1819 ? ted eri th es at o f I lo s u ta d heard it said that the injury inflioted upon the sufferers of 1819 VMS merely temporary—that it fell with them. I said that I did net believe that. (Laughter.) Sir R. PEEL—I thi c k We are much aura` pgroachiug to a iilg n ball" e Fist .frriars► m oo, g one, Cole- :ture r ' ri, a nd inno' Bar lorset' J34 191 ‘' :,13srd' ;aro' ball', Iburif ar t of ; Fry' !ding' at re. olalc• 1, at igoe 4 l and urg er, liar ors, itto, field, ock, ;tat And I. 6 [an -321. Vest 305. ,ern, ng ip), ow ;lig lire