The Sun. — London, England, 1847-03-02 00:00:00

LSSIZES ff, an Elv er° ist the defend i rish West 0 r advertising were gr. S 4 e counsel for, o hne', Acci I 3 qu ati ° ,4: 1 ie dire ct a tter case ' ter° °' al "wri t° ibe 1W nue Or s cide? Cu .") rd o, ti O c, tt I, b er c 'fir* Te e to $ re to 014 and l.t .4 tte roof I"' . 1 4 51011 Ca" for the de dere 4 (Is ten. ,ordeblP. INIPERIAL PARLIAISIENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, March 1. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool lick shortly after Fire o'clock. IMPROVEMENT OF TOWNS. Lord CLARENDON laid on the table the report of the Commissioners for the improvement of towns. INSOLVENT DEBTORS. Lord BROUGHAM brought in a Bill to amend the law with respect to insolvent debtors, which was read a first time. PUNJAUB. Earl RIPON wished to ask the Noble Marquis the President of the Council, if he had any objection to lay on the table copies of the correspondence which had recently taken place relative to certain transactions in the Punjaub? He should not press for the production of the papers if his Noble Friend informed him that he could not conveniently produce them. , this day, and found that there would be no manlier of objection to the production of these papers. And, in ad dition to the papers asked for, it was also decided that the secret papers and the papers which were preliminary to this inquiry should be added to those tor which the Noble Earl inquired; so that there would be a complete history of the wholie of those transactions in the Punjaub laid before the House POT . The Marquisß OF ot LONDONDERRY rose to ask a question as to whether any report had been made, or Chi a steps taen for te mproveen of oaghaee. There had be k en as many as thirteen report D s n made d on subject, and all except four had been in favour of the port, for it was allowed that it was hy far the best for a transit between it and Portpatrick. U pwards of 300,000/. had been spent in the improvement of this port, and the only question was as to whether 13,000/. more should be spent to render the communica tion complete. Wind and tide both combined to render the Passage the best, for at this point there was the • shortest distance between land and land. As respected the north of Ireland, Donaghadee is evidently the best port, f ` 3 r as there is now a railway to Carlisle, they had only to carry it forward to Dumfries, and the communication wOuld be made more expeditiously between Portpatrick and Belfast than it could be by way of Holyhead and Dub "- He only asked 30,0001, which, according to the report of Sir John Rennie, a most able engineer, would Put the harbour into the 'nest complete state of effi eiencY. He could not see why the Government could refuse 'ltch a grant, as Port Patrick formed the nearest, best, Theirlllld safest point of communication with the Scotish coast. L .rdships had lavished sums of money in forming Ports for communication with France and the other por ,tl°l4 of the Continent, but Ireland never came in for ,any Portion of that expenditure. Lord FALKLAND agreed in much that had fallen from „ x Noble Marquis, that the harbour of Port atrick was in an unsatisfactory state, and that the Packets employed were of an inconvenient construction. At the same time it was impossible that the packets could be better in the present state of the harbour; and the question was, was it expedient that a large sum of n ney should be expended on it. Still, bad as was the _ harbo ur, su bj ect to storms as was t h e coas t, a nd poor as I T re the v esse l s , h e mu st observe that for many years service had been performed at the station h a the most regular manner. No serious charge ad ever been made as to the mode in which the business was conducted. He would state in a few ;Words how the case stood, and as he had expressei it in 11 letter recently addresed to him on the subject. It was, A better they would abandon the station, or expend s f tf" ?' OOOl . on it. Some time ago surveyors were employed i e xamine into the best harbour on the west of Scot land for mail communication into the north of Ireland, a nd their report had been supplied two or three days l e ° . The r e p or t wo uld be submitted to him in a few and_ and wh en it wa s, he would give his best attention s r considerati o n to the arguments of the Noble rc inis- He (Lord Falkland) at present, how evea r, would beg to r ay, that the report was ) 4 ' 3. 1 favourable to the maintenance of Portpatrick packet station ; and that, though the Admiralty ',telt give counsel as to the course to be taken, the question of expenditure remained with the Board of Public 'Yorks. T he Marquis of LONDONDERRY expressed himself ,satisfied with the explanation. POST-OFFICE, GLASGOW. .„The Duk e o f NIONTROSE w i s h e d t o ca ll the atten ti or of the H ouse to t h e present arrangemen ts of the 'Tow Post•office. They were such, that though the mail Fad been accelerated by the opening of the Lan caster Place a . r . Rl Carlisle Railway, so that the arrival took so a' eight o'clock in the evening, the letters receivedWhieli were not delivered till next morning, by 16 timtehea second mail had arrived from London. lettersurosf were thus lost to the merchants of Glasgow, the two mails being delivered at the same time. few"el the irnpertance of Glasgow was such, that if a . extra. clerks or deliverers would meet the ulty, and enable the letters to be delivered The great evenin g, the arrang eme nt ought to be made. great ground of complaint waF,, that though the mail a rrived at Glasgow in the evening, great delay took 1 3 a " in the delivery of the letters. He trusted , there ore, that th e Noble Marquis would consider it his duty , e!Peetive of ex p ense, to afford the facilities desired by ,i,ge a town as Glasgow. facts ne Marquis of CLANRICARDE admitted that the the stat ed by the Noble Duke were true. It was true Mail arrived at an inconvenient hour ; but, unfor- I V• nately, means had not y e t been fo un d t o acce l era te I : " Mall between Carlisle and Glasgow. The atten tion of the Post-office had been called to the matter, and they bad instituted an inquiry into the 'natter with the view of causing the delivery of letters to be made the same night. The expense was not con sidered an objection ; in fact, the expense would be not hing compAred with the ad vantageswhich would be con ferred upon so important a town as Glasgow, it the plan Proposed by the Noble Duke could be carried out. The keeping open of the office all night for the reception of -bavvspapers would be considered; and he could assure the Noble Duke that all grievanc( s deserving remedy Would be removed. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH wished to know if !he Noble Marquis would lay on the table returns of the "come and expenses of the Post office, including the . re eeipts and expenditure of all post-offices beyond the lai• He wasimost anxious to obtain the latter portion of this information, as the expense of the communication ' by ship was extremely large. Whilst he was con scted with the Admiralty so large a sum as 400,0001. had 1 ,2• be voted in th e n aval estimates for the conveyance of ▪ e mails, . The M arqu i s o f CL A NRICARDE h a d no o bj ec ti on Ael9auch a return, and should be happy to consult the 0 ble E ar l as to the way i n w hi c h i t cou ld b e mos t con '.l.,tliently made out. It was right to state that there would be considerable difficulty in the way of such a return. LABOURING POOR (IRELAND) BILL. T he Mar qu i s o f CLANRICARDE moved the second wing of thi s Bill. A s t h e o bject of the Bill had been ▪ ady fully discussed in that House, he would merely sate th at i t was simply to i n d emn if y t h dse p e r so ns " had been com p e ll e d to depart from the law p▪ assed th e last session for affording employment to II labouring poor of Ireland. If it was )117' 34 ry to introduce any amendments into the ti ll an opportunity would be aft ,rded when h sar was in Consmitti e. That was all that it was nrces- Y to saY on the subject. id o ,BROUGHASI had no ajection whatever to the asti —n itY; but on constitivional grounds he wished WO A_ e ()fie observation, When any one came for an ‘1 3 ,‘ 1 ° f iLdetnnity, the patties who sought it should . o 4k e out a reason sufficient for the break t'f the law. And to this he had not Zslightest objection, for he believed, in the present t' t t ,t t e n ... ivae ample reason fd' the breach of the law, oej ecti was another reason why he should mike some deity "Ils to the Act, and that was to be fouAndc,ion_t_law d that had occurred in the obtairang the _ d e e ill i, ll ,,itY• Nose, in this case, there had been , sash ai and he thought that there had been culpability iu W u c t 'ng' so long for this Act. Yet that might be no ground Ac" l / 1 13l kint, but he found, under a certain clause of the thoti, t hat all t h e part i es had act , d under the a th:tty "f the G overnment, an d the Noble Lardstatei_ lancl " In in Ire the of a correspondence from a par t y re the , w ; acts hieh a curious misnomer had be en p ut u p on ?f . th e the Goverument officials in his part litt o d r ri - t o te netry, It appeared that the party who e letters received by the Noble e forM the d hadn the paid a considerable sum for w ire rt of .atio w , %Ite m one particular road, whereas the fun d s 'an to ards applied to another. Bs . he did not fo e saY that ti lettere were a sufficient ground Looss,,q),,,°ning this Act of indemnity.—(Laughter.) beIi4,VIONTEAGLE was quite agreed also in the eue l l o Tat in no ca se were th e G o vernment officials more Whi c h t°' the Act of indemnity sought than that te tt w as to be obtained under this Bill. Yet though else act their conduct, and believing that they els e a ct in no other way than they had done under the oftepstances there was one thing which in his opinion boi 7 tor immediate attention, and that was the corn liletrn taken under the Bill for forcing the employ th tof the poor on the farms in Ireland. He the etlght that this would be better done under Meet Drainage Act of last session, and leave the agree ie t o be vo l untary between t h e l an dl or d an d the absolutely Any interference more than that which was nant. ia altr'efer e the necesc' ry would be unwise, and if they t people in Ireland would be left i i) only -n.y resource in Mr. Lahouchere's letter, se n e t — `,7e the works were carried on with mutual con bid tile better they would be performed. He G s ,, or n° objection that the Bill should give the take — nm eht power t o r e ctify all technical mis s ; but h e considered that it oug h t to b e d one " n the prin c ipl e of strict just i ce an d not o f ma king 41g, 13' e 3 1)er:on Pay more than ho had contracted to do. t: o n were the o n l y po i nts to w hi c h t o d raw the attere ' of the H ouse r, a l43 rd lIROUG HANI desired to inform the Noble Lord he had no objection to the Act of Indemnity, he had t 7:3' obse rve d that he considered that it went further the n „:%. l -r. Labouchere' s l etter warrante d. Th e wo rds of ll tuay were too cemprehensive. " Any person who Pave committed any act," the most illegal and the or, " oppressive act , wou ld b e j ustified by such wor d s ; , oe :.gnto, " any proceeding f or ren d er i ng suc h present _ .t etTective." His only obje c ti on was to t h e f ram i ng "tit' elau- e , an d it w as to that alone h e d es i re d t o di rec t eultatt"ntion of the Heuse. He knew it was most diffi to frame an indemnity clause, but they could in COinmittee remedy th e d e f ects h e h a d po i nted out. thL,, d WESTMEATH considered t h e suggest i on of pe Noble Lord as most useful. He knew several landed _r" .% ri(.torand he himselt was smeer the , who ,nte.radundertaken the whole of the electoral expenses n of district, in oteL r to escape the baronial assessments. the'a EL LENBOROUGH said he had n o o bj ect i on to 1 , but he did not cons id er t h at the Government be were entitled to the hi g h est pra i se, w hi ch should only 9 r4•4 to those who hitd foreseen and prevented a THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, MARCH 2, 1847. difficulty. But, with respect to the future, he enter• tained a very deep anxiety, and it would be most satis• factory to him to know if her Majesty's Government would he able to offer him some explanation upon the subject. He understood that it was their intention to close the relief committees as soon as possible, relying on the Destitute Persons Bill, and upon private and public works, for the relief of the people. There were no less than 564,000 persons in Ireland who em ployed no labourers, but who cultivated their own land themselves. Their whole substance depended upon the potato, and when that failed they had no money to purchase food; nor, unless they were taken from the cultivation of their own land, would they have anything to give in exchange for it. He would wish, therefore, the Noble Marquis opposite to state what arrangements would be made relating to the supply of seed for the en suing harvest. Earl FITZ WILLIAM said the question no doubt was one of great importance. Th - e transition state from the employment of the people under the Labour rate Act to the measures proposed to be submitted by the Government was one of great consideration. Still he thought, under the circumstances, the difficulty would net be so great as was apprehended. With regard to the supply of seed, it was undoubtedly important that it should be forthcoming; still he considered it would be dangerous for the Government to interfere and supply the seed that might be required. It would be much better to leave the matter in the hands of private individuals. —(Hear, hear.) But a more important question they had to consider, was whether after all, the measures of the Government would be adequate to meet the crisis ! This was a question of far more importance than the one which the Noble Earl had referred to, and he begged their Lordships, he begged the other House of Parliament, he begged the people of England generally seriously to consider whether the measures would be adequate, and whether the economy which seemed to pervade the other House of Parliament, and prevailed out of doors, would not prove, instead of economy, prospective extravagance, and lay the foundation of great expenditure in the future. He wished this country would come to their senses upon this great question, as he was sure they were not in their senses upon the question. They did not understand the real nature of the evil, and how deeply it might afflict them. Ile thought that England was taking an improper view of this question, and knew not the exact nature of the im pending evil. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE considered that it would have been utterly impossible and useless to have called the Parliament together in the course of the autumn to devise remedies for the calamity. And under these circumstances her Majesty's Government thought that it would be better to defer seeking for this indem nity, which would be more conveniently obtained at the usual meeting of Parliament ; and when they did meet then not a day was lost in seeking for that indemnity. Most grateful was he to Parliament and to the country to find that when they were called together there was such an expression of good will as that which had been manifested on both sides of both Houses, and he was pal titularly glad to find that there was such an expression of good feeling, and that when this Bill was introduced that it was not likely to meet with much opposition. With respect to the ob servations which had fallen from the Noble Lord (Lord Monteagle), who had been exceedingly anx ious that the provisions of the Drainage Act of last session should be carried out, but then he should recol lect that there were two sides to be considered, that it might not be in the power of the tenant to obtain the advantages to which be was entitled. Then two Noble Earls (Earl Fitzwilliam and the Earl of Ellenberough) who had followed the Noble Lord had complained that sufficient forethought had not been shown in providing for the distresses of Ireland; but it should be recollected that no man had ever thought of, or anticipated, the extent of this distress, and of the result of the calamity which had befallen Ireland. The importance of forwarding seed could not be over rated,' but the Government felt it would be utterly impossible for them to undertake the sowing of the whole country.—(Hear.) Ev en the proposition of the Government to allow a certain sum for purchasing seed for particular localities, had, instead of affording facili ties of sowing the wh ole country with seed, the effect of increasing the price of seed and preventing those facilities which the Government considered the grant of 50,000/. would have opened up. He had always considered that the plan of reeking advances to the landlords would be most salutary, as they would be thereby enabled to improve their estates, and conse quently to employ great numbers of their people. It was not for him to say what advantage . s they might confer upon themselves by such . aid from the Government, but it struck him forcibly that the greatest advantages might be made to accrue to all parties. He hoped that the spring would bring a demand for labour in Ireland, and that to that extent the distress of the people would be removed. He did not say that this and other means were fully ade quate to meet the emergency, but they could not fail to contribute much to the alleviation of the distress. Ile could not bear too high testimony to the way in which the Parliament and the country came forward to relieve the exigencies of Ireland ; but it should be borne in mind that it was not a question of money, but of food; of the salvation of a whole people. The Bill was then read a second time. PRISON DISCIPLINE.—TRANSPORTATION. Earl GREY laid two Bills on the table, the second reading of which he stated he should propose on Friday next. The first had reference to the existing system of transportation, and to amend the laws respecting the custody of prisoners, and the second propok,ed to alter the management of Millbank and Parkhurst prisons. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 1. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time:— Aylsham and North Walsham Railway, Caledonian Railway (Branches from the Clydesdale Junc tion Railway to the Douglas and Lesmahagow Mineral Fields, and to Strathavon). Caledonian Railway (Extension of Motherwell branch of Clydesdale Junction Railway to Auchinheath Mineral Field, with Branches to the Wishaw and Coltness Railway, Canderside, and Hamilton). Caledonian Railway (Purchase or Lease of Wishaw and Coltness Railway). Caledonian and Dumbartonshire Junction Railway (Deviations between Duntocher Lime Works and Bowling, &c.) Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Rail "Y (Extension from Lavenhant to Bury St. Ed mund's). Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Rail way (Extension to Melford, Lavenham, and Claro). Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Rail way (Stour Navigation Purchase). Duffryn Llynvi, and Forth Cawl and Lynvi Valley Ruilways Amalgamation, Eastern Union and Iladleigh Junction Railway (Salo to , he Eastern Union Railway Company). East Lothian Central Railway. Guildt4d Extension and Portsmouth and Fareham Rail way. Herne Bay and Canterbury Junction Railway. Ipswich and Bury St. Edmund's Railway (Extension to East Dereham and to Aylsham). Ipswich and Bury St. Edmund's Railway (Branch from Ipswich to Woo 'bridge). Leominster Can4l Navigation Sale. London and South-Western Railway. Ne vry and Enniskillen Railway. New Zealand Company. R,yston and liitchin Railway (Extension from Royston to Cambridge, &c.) Royston and Hitchin Railway (Sale or Lease.) Stratbtay and Breadalbane Extension Railway. Taw Vale Railway and 1)oek (Deviations and Bideford and South Molton Branches). Wilsontown, Morningside, and Coltness Railway (Branches to Benhar Coal-works and Edinburgh and Glasgow Turnpike Road). The sec ,, nd reading of the Ambergate, Nottingham, and Boston, and Eastern Junction Railway (Alteration of Line and Branches to Nottingham) was postponed mad' the 15th inst.; and the Shrewsbury and Chester for a week. THE NEW ZEALAND BILL. Sir R. 11. INGLIS complained of this Bill being placed in the list of private Bills. It was one of such importance that it should have been placed in a more prominent position for the consideration of the House. He thought it was not a Bill which ought to pass as a private BilL It gave large powers to the New Zealand authorities—powers which might be necessary for the local legislature, but a Bill containing such provisions was not snob a Bill as ought to pass through as a matter of form and of course. He hoped the Government would give it their attention before it came on for a second reading. Lord J. RUSSELL said the Bill belonged to another department, but the Government would certainly give it their attention. Mr. HUME said that was a proper opportunity to call the attention of the Government to the principle adopted by the House last session, It was then deter mined that no private Bill should be read a first time until it had been introduced under some public depart ment, as that would afford some security that the public interests would not be abused. The Bill was then read a second time and committed. POOR RELIEF (IRELAND). Mr. SHAW gave notice that, in Committee upon the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill, he would move a number of amendments. RATING TENEMENTS BILL. Colonel T. WOOD gave notice that he would post pone the second reading of the Rating Tenements Bil from Wednesday next to Wednesday fortnight. DAY OF NATIONAL FAST AND HUMILIA line, within ten miles on each side of the raiwaY• On the Dundalk and on the Carlow Railways the same thing was to be seen. On the lane line there was not one Englishman employed, .ixcept, perhaps, an overseer. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland told them a few nights age that the prosperity of Ireland next year depended 01 the la bourers being employed during the next six weeks in agricultural operations. He did not state, however, that draining would commence on a large scale in the months of April or May. Now, he (Mr. Collett) could state that the baronies of Irland were ready to expend hslf a million on railways,and to em pl,py all the able-bodied labourers in the collar).- The only mode in which Government proposel to employ them was drainage, but he had no greatconfidence i❑ that. If, therefore, only thirty thensand persons were to be employed from May .o September, he thought it would be the means of con ferring incalculable advantages on the country He con , idered that her Majesty's Government had not taken the proper steps in reference to this question. They ought not to have trusted to mere anonymous authority on this question ; and he, fa one, would have been ready to afford them all the information which he possessed. ARMY ESTIMATES. On the motion for going into Committee of Ways and Means, Sir DE LACY EVANS moval an humble ad dress to her Majesty, with a view of bringing under consideration the hardship and inconsis tency of a warrant, or regulation issued from the War-office, dated May, 1846, whereby certain general officers, whose duties might have been limited to home or peace service, were deemed eligible to the minimum pay of their rank; also for a copy of any representa , Lions which might have been made to the chief military ' authority, to the Treasury, Secretary-at-War, or other department, in reference to the inconvenient conse ' 9uences to good order and discipline, resulting from an Inequality in respect to ration stoppages from troops serving in the colonies. Sir H. DOUGLAS called the attention of the House to the case of medical officers. POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. P. SCROPE, on the motion that the House do go into Committee upon this measure, said he would trespass upon the attention of the House with a few observations. The rent of Ireland last year amounted to 15,000,000/., and yet upon the average the poor-rates only amounted to 7i-d. in the pound. Under these circumstances, he thought some information ought to be given to the coun try upon the subject. In the union of Castle Bar the case was still stronger. There tho per tentage did not amount to more than fourpence-halfpenny in the pound, and the guardians having collected that amount, shut the doors upon the starving poor and refused to collect any more. _ _ Mr. LABOUCHERE would not accept the invitation of the Hon. Member to enter now upon a discussion of the poor-law, because the House would have ample oppor tunity on a future occasion to enter fully into that subject. He must confess he never entertained the opinion that whatever poor-law should have been introduced into Ireland could have ever met the emergencies of the pre sent period, and it was altogether a miscalculation that they could have framed a poor-law which could entirely relieve the distress of that country in its present circum stances. WAYS AND MEANS. LOAN OF EIGHT MILLIONS. The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then rose and said, in deference of my friends behind me, and in accor dance with my own feelings, I rise to make a statement in re ference to the subject of finance which I brought before the House the other evening. And here I must express how sen sibly I felt the kindness which the whole of the House did me that evening.—( Hear, hear.) Sir, on that occasion I stated that in order to meet the existing exigencies, I must make an extraordinary demand on the Treasury of this kingdom, and that I must have recourse to a loan of 8,000000/. It gave me great pleasure that the House had confirmed that proceeding with their sanction. I have now to announce that an arrangement has been entered into whereby I shall be able to obtain that loan, and I will move the House to pass cer tain resolutions confirmatory of that arrangement. It has not been the practice of the House that the Chancellor of the Exchequer mentioned his intention of contracting a loan. It would be recollected that when the last loan was contracted for, an Act of Parliament had been passed authorising the loan generally. I thought it best, however, to mention it to the House, and I have since felt that the course which I then adopted was the best—it was certainly the most respectful to this House. After considering it, I am sensible that the course I have taken has been the most advantageous that could have been adopted. I had made every necessary inquiry about the possibility of raising the money, and everybody universally told me that I should have no difficulty in obtaining the sum. I have found this to be the case, by determining to grant interest at three per cent., consolidated stock This course we have adopted on the present occasion, and accordingly I announced to those gentlemen, who did me the honour of waiting upon me, that I would give consolidated stock, and that parties bidding for the loan were to bid so much money for each 1001. stock. Two offers have been made which were identical, and the result of previous arrangements between the parties. The offer made was of 89/. 10s. for each 1001. stock. Aceording to the best considerations which I have been able to give the subject, and also as the result of communications with various parties, and considering the present state of the money market, I thought the offer was an advan tageous one, and I came to the resolution of accepting it. With respect to the rate of interest at which the loan has been contracted, it will be necessary that I should make some observations upon the statements which I made upon a former occasion. What I had in view when I made that an nouncement to the House was that I expected to raise the loan at a rate of interest of between three and four per cent.; I thought that probably I might be able to raise it at three-and a-half per cent. It was necessary to debit myself with some amount as chargeable upon the revenue of the country, it was necessary that I should in part know what amount of interest would fall upon the country as chargeable upon the revenue. That sum, I am happy to say, does not quite equal three-and-a half per cent. Upon the occasion of the last wan, the rate of interest was not so high as the present rate of interest. The West Indian loan wa s one of 20,000,000/., the loan which I have now contracted is one of a considerably less amount. The price of Consols was then considerably higher than at present; it is not therefore to be supposed that, with a smaller amount of loan to be raised, ar.d with the price of Consols considerably less, that the pre sent loan could be contracted upon the same advantageous terms as the former one. The interest that will be payable upon the present loan is as near as may be 3/. 7s. 6d. per cent. A calculation has been made in the Treasury o ffices, which brings the rate of int eres t to 31 . 7 e, per cen t., and if you de duct the amount of the dividend from January to March, it will make it 31. 7s. 6d. per cent. The annual amount of in terest upon the loan will be 268,156/. Ss., to which, if you add the amount of the Bank charges of management of the loan, it will make the total amount chareeable upon the loan 270,800/. es., or a charge upon the whole of something less than 3/. 7s. 6J. per cent. I have therefore contracted the loan 2s. 6d. per cent. less than the 34 per cent. which I sup pose I should have had to pay for the loan. I ha ve allowed no discount, an d I h ave also adopted the practice usually employed in loans in France of giving stock, if required , for ever y instal ment as they ar e p a id, except the first. This will cause no extra charge upon the country, and will, at the same time afford to Government an increased facility for raising the loan. The Right lion. Member concluded eluded by moving resolutions confirmatory of the loan granted b her Majesty ; t h a t towards the 8,000,0 i 01. authorised to beyraised every co ntributor of 891. 10s. be entitled to 100/. stock, after the rate of 3 per cent.; the same to be computed from the 3d of January, and to be then added to the existing Three per Cents.; that ever) contributor should, from the sth of March, 1847, pay 12 p er cent, of the sum he or she might have agreed t o contribute to the 8,000,0001.; the succeeding instalments to be p aid on the 9th April, 7th May, 11th June, 9th July, 6th August, 30 th September, and the 16th October. Mr. HUME wished to know whether the interest on the whole loan would commence in January or with each portion paid? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the interest commenced from January. Supposing that a c perso h n e had paid up the whole of his instalments before July,then was entitled to receive a half year's dividend i an other in January, but if they had not paid upth July and eirinstalments they would not be entitled to rec eive a dividend till January. Mr. HUME had only to express his reg ret that the Right Hen. Gentleman had resorted to this mode k of obtaining the f i, h a nd loan. They They were now to pay 8,938, 5471 • terest for that amount to the 31st Januarsty,ocho °rt h t ey had not received it. He must say that they had t made ug a bad bar gain, and he had no doubt that the loan would now bring 3 or 4 per cent. stock in the market. By accepting lowsuch h e terms, not a great loss would be sustained by the country. Hwould . t have left it open to the chances of combina t i on, but have put it in the power of every one to compete for it in the market. He was informed that these were now at a premium of from 1 to lb per cent. It was the principles however, that he objected to, and be regretted that such a course had been adopted. Mr. WILLIAMS expressed his sorrow that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had proceeded in the beaten track of all Chancellors of the Exchequer for the last forty years. By proceeding in this way, an additional sum of 173 millions had been added to the debt of this country. He objected to the principle altogether, for he maintained that they ought to get 1/. sterling for every 1/. of stock. He thought that if her Ala jesty's Government had pursued a different course that the result would have been also different, and what had now been unsuccessful, would have been successful. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having replied, Mr. HUME said that they should get the best terms for the public they could, and if they had put up ve thegot betterloans t oa e s to t a o . raise He a c ompetition, they wou ld probably have therefore, did consider that the public did not get a fair chance. Mr. WILLIAMS considered that there had been no com petence, if it was not a secret, he would desire to know who the two parties were who made the offer for the loan. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said'that it was no secret, for t hat it was p robabl y v ery well known by the pu blic, that they were t he Messrs. Rothschild and th e Me ssrs. Baring. After some conversation the resolution was agreed to, and the House resumed. POOR RELIEF IRELAND BILL. On the order of the day that the House do go into a com mittee on the Poor Relief Ireland Bill, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he did not rise with any intention of provoking a dis cussion , but into let the House know earlier than it otherwise would order his whatinten- tions were, he proposed that they should go into en Monday next, and that they at present would go inonatorneiotmtee mittee pro forma. With respect to the first clause of the bill, guardians it had been suggested that although the quired to relieve the destitute out of the workhouse, yet, that cases might arise where owing to the workhouse being filled, or to fever, it would be impossible t o fill clausef it, and the guardians, therefore, refuse to give relief. In order to prevent such mistakes from occurring, a should in troduced requiring relict to be afforded t o th e capability of the union. In clause 9, the Governmentull extent of the to alter the liability of persons to be rated. They propose place the charge of maintaining th e poor proposed to up to a certain amount upon the electoral district, b u t t h at where it exceeded 2s. 6d. in the pound it should be charged large. They also proposed to alt er the numberto the union at of ex-officio guardians. In England, all magistrates, who served as magistrates in the union, were members of the board of guardians. In Ireland, , to the number of one-third _ they were elected of the whole board. What the Government proposed was, trates be elected to the numb er o f one half that the magis of the whole body. They should likewise introduce a clause ie to that in the Temporary Relief Bill, giving p ower to tire re move a board of guardians for the non-yerforomvearnnemeenotf to thei; duty, and placing paid guardians to act in their stead. There was another point to which he would allude. The House were aware that in England poor relief was not given to persons who had sufficient means of subsistence of their own The House might recollect that it was proposed by the Hon. Member for Dublin that no relief should be given to persons possessing above half an acre of land. If they said that per sons should be required to possess any land whatever, there would be then a danger that some, indeed many, poor persons, would be deprived of the occupation of a cottage, or their little plot of garden. On the other hand, should relief be given to persons possessed of any land whatever, there would be a danger of giving encouragement to persons of small holdings, which would, as had been suggested to him, be most dangerous to the general prosperity of the country. The small holdings had been represented as one of the most prominent evils in Ireland. Between those two points of danger the Government were undecided, and they wished to take some time for consideration. Her Ma jesty's Government, however, felt the necessity of some defini tion as to what class of persons should be entitled to relief. He would, in conclusion, propose to go into Committee pro forma, and they should then proceed with the other two Bills as quickly as possible. Mr. SHAW said that he understood the proposition cf the Noble Lord to be as follows: With reference to the first clause, he intended to grant relief to all who might require it. Now, he would suggest a right to relief would necessitate a law of settlement. At present, the House should recollect, there was no absolute right to relief existing in Ireland. With regard to the second clause he perfectly acquiesced in it; and with respect to the ninth clause, that no relief should be charged as far as possible upon the locality, and that where it exceeded a certain sum that then it should be charged upon the union at large, he also concurred, for as at present advised he saw no tangible objection against such a princißle. Sir ROBERT PEEL wished to know whether the Noble Lord gave the vestry the same right in the union as they had in England ? _ _ _ Sir. SHAW asked whether he was to understand by the clause which refused relief to those holding land, if those in possession of certain small holdings would be entitled to relief, but that all with large holdings, above a certain amount, should not be entitled to relief? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, in regard to the first question by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in reference to the clauses giving the right of out-door relief, the guardians were required to give out-door relief when the workhouse was full. It was felt necessary to make this provision, supposing such a case should arise as that the people might be starving, at a time when they could not be admitted into the workhouse. It was to meet an emergency of that kind, and to empower the guardians to give relief out of door. As to the question put by the Right Hon. Baronet, he said it would not be exactly the same as it was in England, for in England there was this difference, that relief was given in full; but it was not the intention of the Government to make it exactly similar in Ireland. Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL thought that the clause intro ducing ex-officio guardians would work very badly in Ireland ; and he feared, that as regarded religious questions and reli gious instructions to the inmates of the workhouse, he hoped the Government would introduce some means which would protect the inmates in that respect. Sir DENHAM NORREYS said he was surprised at the Noble Lord in the way he had been guided in introducing the rating clauses into the Bill. That Noble Lord had partially brought the question before the House, and he was bound to have taken the opinion of the House ; but he understood that he had allowed himself to be guided by some of the Irish Members. Had he taken the opinion of the whole Irish party, perhaps complaint would have been out of place; but he ought, knowing the complaints made from Ireland on the sub ject, to have brought it before the House, and given them an opportunity of making their statements and laying down their opinion upon it. In common sense and justice, the Noble Lord was bound to have taken this course, and not to have set- tied such a question in his private closet. He might say it was not settled ; but the Noble Lord had made up his mind, and he came forward with his opinions and pressed them upon the House, and they were not likely to be able to change them. He had lost all confidence in him as a leader. All the confidence which had been begotten by his conduct on the Factory Bill, the Mayneoth Bill, and other questions. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said the Hon. Gentleman wished to have discussion, and he promised he would have an opportu nity; he hoped to see the question of rating, of a uniform rate, brought before the House. His opinion was, that any patching and tinkering of a measure would be injurious, as they would find out ere five years had elapsed. Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN could not allow that opportunity to pass without protesting against the proposed constitution of the board of guardians. The Noble Lord, it was welt known, had the popular support for his Government, and yet he came forwardwithaproposition to make andhe one-thirdortreby bade on d % fourth op_ position. the whole board ex officio members, position. He thought if persons were fit to be guardians they would be elected by the ratepayers, and if they did not have the confidence of the poor and the ratepayers, they ought not to be guardians. Mr. POULETT SCROPE said that many improvements had been made in the Bill—many more had yet to be made. But he must observe that in those made already, and those allowed that evening by the Noble Lord, great concessions had been made in favour of the landlord. There was one, however, which he must mention with all prominency in justice to the Noble Lord, viz , that which gave the right of out-door relief, at least, where the workhouse was full. As in England, so in Ireland, he was happy where the law was that no one should be allowed to starve, for then the poor man might in either country claim relief under the law. At the same time he did not think that the Noble Lord would have left it to the guardians to starve one portion of the people at their will. But he admitted that I the clause was a very large concession in favour of the poor. There was one clause which gave the Commissioners the right of ordering outdoor relief to all classes of the poor. That was a great advantage and much in favour of the poor, but he was sorry to see it limited only to times when the workhouse was full, or when it might be considered dangerous to ad mit more in case of infection from fever. The next concession in favour of the ratepayer was, the clause intro ducing the ex officio guardians. That, he considered, was a great concession, and one from which he doubted not but that the poor would suffer. Another concession was, that small far mers should not be allowed to claim relief unless they gave up their land. That was not a provision in the Scottish law, it did not require the poor farmer to give up his croft before it would allow relief. Mr. F. MAULE.—It does not allow relief. Mr. P. SCROPE.—Yes ; but it did not make it neces sary for the small farmer, previous to his receiving aid, to give aphis croft ; and for saying that he was supported by the last re port of the Poor-law Commissioners' inquiry for Scotland. If in Ireland the law should be that farmers of three or four acres of land, and there were several hundreds of such in that country—if it should be necessary for such to give up their farms, if they fell into eireumitances of difficulty and distress, the effect would be ruinous, and the law would be most unpo pular. Another clause in the Rill worthy of attention, was that which confines the out-door relief to the permanently dis abled. He did not know exactly how that phrase, permanently disabled, might be explained, for it was a new distinction in the law. But this he knew, that it distinguished a very small por tion of the poor recipients of relief in England. The Puor-law Commissioners in this country had divided all the classes of the poor into nine, and this class of permanently disabled formed but one of these. He was sorry to think that this pro vision would offer but very inadequate relief to the class of persons who ought really to have come under that designation, and he regretted it the more so as Government, by taking proper steps, and making adequate provision for the poor in their own country, would have adopted the best means of pre venting the crowds of poor that immigrated into this country in search of the relief which they could not obtain in their native land. One thing he was anxious to know from the Noble Lord was, what steps he meant to take for the sup pression of mendicancy and vagrancy ? He recollected that in the Poor-law Bill introduced by the Noble Lord, in December 1837, there were clauses introduced for the suppression of mendicancy and vagrancy, and that the Noble Lord, upon that occasion based the whole Bill upon these clauses, and principle of suppressing these. The clauses in question were however expunged after they left the Commons, in the House of Lords, and passed without them in 1838. Having said thus much, he would postpone what he had to say till a future occasion. Mr. LEFROY had a question to task of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government. It was, how far was it his inten tion that the workhouse test should be carried out before out door relief was granted ? He hoped also that while this matter was properly attended to, the subject of union-rating would be alao considered ; as the system of electoral voting was much de sired by the people of Ireland. Mr. CALLAGHAN wished to say a few words on the point of union-rating. He had lately presented a petition from the citizens of Cork for a more extensive system of rating than even union-rating. He was decidedly of opinion that unless a general system of rating was established, there would be no peace or satifaction in Ireland. He also regretted to hear the proposal of the Government for increasing the number of ex officio guardians, as it would cause great dissatisfaction, and introduce parties on to the boards who in many instances would have no interest in the raising of the rates they were called on o administer. Mr. FITZGERALD agreed with the Government in the mode of rating proposed in the Bill. In answer to a question from Mr. SHAW, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Government had under consideration a Vagrancy Act for Ireland. The House then went into Committee on the Bill. The Bill was agreed to pro forma, and ordered to be re committed on Monday next. LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that the order of the day for going into Committee on this Bill be read, in order to post pone it till Monday next. Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN complained of the postponement of the Bill, and considered great inconvenience would arise therefrom. At the present time the people were engaged on works entirely of an unproductive nature, and every day lost in the settlement of the present Bill would be inflicting a serious injury on Ireland. With respect to the poor-law pro posed, that was not a measure to enrich Ireland. Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the measure of such importance that he could not agree to its passing without the greatest consideration. It should be gone through clause by clause, and all its provisions duly weighed and considered. Their so doing before sending it to the other House was the most safe and practical course, and this would take up some time. The Honourable Member had also complained of the proposed poorelaw, and said that it would not be a measure to make Ireland rich. He (Lord John Russell) did not say that it would do so, but it would have the effect of inducing the landed proprietors and the farmers to employ the people instead of supporting them in the workhouse, and thus lead to the improvement of the country.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the money now spending, it would enable the people to earn something to keep thm alive. The most important question for the Go vernment now was, not whether the labour was productive or not, but to enable the people to keep alive. Still he thought that even the roads which had been made, and which were said to be unproductive, would turn out most useful and advan tageous. He could farther assure the Hon. Mensber that tlre Waste Lands Bill would be shortly introduced, and that that, with the New Poor-law, would be proceeded with w ithout delay. With respect to the Bill now u n d er eonside ration, the Lord Chancellor had gone through the clauses, and thought them hi ghly important and practical; sI asthe practicelof the Court of Chancery in Ireland differed somewhat from the practice of the English Court, it was con sidered the best course to delay the Bill a little, in order that s igns might be fully matured, and that it might, there its provi fore, work satisfactorily. — ( Hear, hear. ) Mr. HUAIE said no one could see the exertions which the Government were making without being satisfied that they were doing their best ; still he could not agree with the Noble Lord that the money now expended was not unproductive. H e (Mr. Hume) did not se e an y evidence ofits productive ness, while its application was taking the people away from the cultivation of the land. No time should be lost in carrying loans the Bill, to ena ble the landed p ro p rietors to receive in order to employ the people on the lands. There was no doubt but that the land would pay for the capital expended on it. Only the other day he learned that land in one of the most distressed counties in Ireland, Kerry had sold for 27 years' purchase. He thought that as so many of the estates in Ireland were in Chancery, a Bill should be passed to enable the proprietors to sell their estates, and apply the results to liberate themselves from their present unfortunate position. Lord G. BENTINCK said he could not agree with the Noble Lord in the picture he had drawn of the benefits which would arise from the roads that were making, as from a report of a meeting held the other day in Ireland, at which Mr. Bianconi, who had been referred to as a great authrity in that House, had spoken. That gentleman had spoken at the meeting, represented the roads to be in a most deplorable condition, and of little use for the purposes contemplated. (The Noble Lord read an extract from the report of the meeting to this effect.) Lord J. RUSSELL had not said that he was very sanguine of the benefits which the reads would produce, but that he considered they would benefit the country, and be the means of employing the people so as to supply the means of sub sistence. Sir JAMES GRAHAM entertained a strong opinion that every farthing expended in Ireland, should be spent in a repro ductive manner. He did not, however, rise to give this opi nion, but to express himself that he thought it unfair and unjust to press the Government in this period of awful and unexampled difficulty, or to blame them for delaying to bring forward the measures which they thought necessary to meet the crisis.' But he would express his opinion in reference to permanent measures for Ireland, that none would be better calculated to give relief than a measure giving facilities to tenants for life to relieve themselves of their incumbrances by the sale of portions of their land.— (Hear, hear.) Such a measure was absolutely required, and he rejoiced to hear that the Lord Chancellor of Ireland had directed his earnest attention to the question, in order that some relief in this respect might be given to holders of property.—( Hear.) There was a clause to put this on equitable principles, but what was the consequence ? Why, Lord Langdale, Lord Campbell, the Lord Chancellor, and Lord Lyndhurst had all allowed that the principles of the till were inapplicable to the circumstances of the country. These principles had been fully agreed to in that House, and yet these great law Lords had all assented to the agreement that the bill was quite un tenable. On the one hand, there was the difficulty which must be felt in the Legislature at passing Bills to which these Lords could not give their consent. Yet he considered that obtaining the consent of the other House to the improvement of the Poor Law was of the greatest possible moment, and he trusted the necessary measures for that purpose would be taken. Mr. L A BOUCHERE could not but regret the opinion that the Right Hon. Baronet opposite had expressed as to the two courses, one of which it was determined that Parliament should pursue. He deeply regretted that the word of his Noble Friend the first Lord of the Treasury had not been sufficiently at tended to. The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to think that his Noble Friend conceived that it was immaterial what works were entered upon, and whether they were useful or unprofit able works ; but if he had examined sufficiently into the state of the facts, he would find that none of the works on which the public money had been expended could be called unproductive works, and that the expenditure which had been made had been of much service in the improvement of property of the country. In the consideration of this question, they must go to the con sideration of the matters before them, and to save the sacrifice of human life, and to prevent the extent of human suffering, and for that purpose they were anxious to promote this mea sure. But it had been made a charge against the Govern ment, that these people had net been employed upon reproduc tive works, and that if the money were to be expended, this ought to be resorted to. But were not these people already engaged, directly or indirectly, in the cultivation of the soil. He had stated over and over again, that the object of the Go vernment in the planning of these works, was the employment of the people with a view to the preservation of human life. But, as the Right Hon. Baronet bad observed, this could only be attained by the expenditure of a large sum of money. The great question was, as to how this plan would succeed in the improvement of the country. What would have been the circumstances had this grant not been made. Why, the probability was that the suffering would not have been relieved, and yet the money would have been equally expended, and therefore it was that he was re joiced that they had given their assistance, and that the people had been employed upon public, rather than upon re-productive works. He would not trouble the House with further remarks, but could not Lhelp expressing his regret that their measures had not met with the approval of the Hon. Member for Dor• setshire (Mr. S. Herbert), whose opinion was always of so much weight in that House. Sir D. NORREYS—The Noble Lerd was desirous of de veloping the resources of Ireland. Let him do so in a manly manner, and let no man take up a mine or any other public work without the sanction of Government. Would it not be better now, if the Noble Lord has any measure in hand, to submit that to the Board of Works, and see whether it was feasible or not. This principle might be observed as respected either a bank or a public road, He would now give an instance of this Act. He had an offer from some gentlemen to erect a mill at an expense of from 14,0001. to 15,0001., but he could not accede to their offer bocause he could not force the occupants of certain lands to give him a right of way to the entrance to the mill. Then there was another case which had come under his notice. There was a limestone quarry which could not be brought into play, because the original holders of the land refused to grant their assistance to the conveyance of the stone from the quarry, and he was quite satisfied that unless some measures were taken for expe diting the means for enabling public works to be carried on it would be utterly futile to pass any measure for the improve ment of Ireland. Mr. BAILEY believed that unless there were some mea sures for enabling the proprietors to get rid of their entailed estates, any measures to which the Government might accede would be of no use whatever. Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that a great misunderstanding prevailed on this subject. He had himself been largely en gaged in the appropriation of the means provided for the im provement of Ireland, especially in the most cultivated districts in Ireland. He meant those about Dublin. The great object was, to give employment to the people, and they had found that the making of roads had been of the utmost possible advantage, for they afforded to the most destitute immediate employment. One fault only had, as it appeared to him, been committed, and that was the endeavour to do the work which required 17,000,0001. with a grant of 10,000,0007.; a grant which was totally inapplicable to the purpose. Sure he was that if the Government acted consistently they would not find the gentle. men of Ireland behindhand in rendering their assistance. Mr. SHAW was unwilling to say a single word, but he thought that the Bill of the Government might have been sooner brought forward, and he regretted this the more as there was an evident desire on both sides of the House that it should be carried forward as speedily as possible. Mr. P. SCROPE waa anxious to know the result of the Drainage Act of last session, for it appeared to him that it had not been sufficiently followed au'. He had had communi cations from Ireland in which it was stated that the land ir. the neighbourhood of the writers was quite under wa'er, and he fds aasurcd that if that !ict had bee•. fully carried out, that no difficulty would have been experienced respecting those public wolks. After a few words from Mr. BAILEY, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he should be prepared to answer the question on Monday next, and he could not without preparation undertake to answer all the questions respecting the measures which had passed this House. With respect to the Drainage Bill, of which complaint had been made by his Hon. Friend (Mr. P. Scrope), all he could say was that every opportunity had been taken to render the Act as avail able as possible, and as there was to be another discussion, he might say with respect to the question of his Hon, Friend, that be would then be able to learn what the intentions of Government were. _ _ The Earl of LINCOLN had listened with much attention to the observations of the Hon. Member of St. Germains, and did feel that the intentions of the Act of last year had not been fully carried out, and that the sanction of the Government had been fully justified. And the more so that from 120 to 130 per cent. of the funds had been applied to the purposes of this Act. Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN regretted that no intimation had been given by the Government of the plan which they intended to adopt ; for, if they had, he felt assured that not only would the system itself have been most satisfactory to the country, but that it would be more e m i nen tl y i nstrumental in the pro. motion of the public welfare. The vote was then postponed until Monday next. ARMY ESTIMATES. On the motion that the House go into a Committee of Supply on the army estimates, Mr. HUNIE said that he exceedingly regretted that the Government should have taken the course which they had adopted in the arrangement of these estimates, for he saw no reason whatever for the increase of the sum to be voted for these estimates. Since the year 1822 the estimates for this purpose were upwards of 20,000,0004 in excess of what they were, and for this he saw no reason whatever. Dating the years 1835, 6, and 7he found that the whale of the estimates for the purposes of war were upwards of 4.3,000,0004, giving an average for the three years of more than 14,473,000/., and since the year 1843 they had increased to the extent of more than 3,000,000/. He did not see any reason fur this, for the difference was not great between the present year and that of 1828, when the army had been re duced. For his own part he did not see that there was any great necessity for a larger military establishment than that which existed in 1792, and to that standing he thought the army ought to be approximated if it were not reduced to that extent. These were matters well deserving of inquiry, and he trusted the Government would not allow the matter to pass without sufficient investigation. Sir DE LACY EVANS could, as he believed, make con siderable pretensions to the character of a liberal Member of that House, but he would never be a party to embarrass the Government by such a reduction of the army estimates as that which had been suggested by the Hon. Member for Montrose , . (111;. Hustle ). — (Hear, hear.) The wants of this great empire were not to be satisfied by a meagre force. with regard to what had fallen from the Honourable Member for Montrose upon the subject of economy, he could only say, that at no hustings would he ever give a pledge to make any silly or foolish reductions in the public expenditure, and thus jeopardize the defences of the country. Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said nothing could be more rash and silly than reductions at the expense of the security of the country. He had heard with great surprise from free tra ders opposite, that no sooner had they est ablished free trade, than they were obliged to increase their military operations; be cause they were once told, that the effects of free trade would be to produce peace, lay desolate fortifications, disband enemies, and do away with the navy. Now he, as a protectionist, never saw that any of these consequences would arise, nor did lie ever believe that free trade would lead to more harmony be tween foreign countries and Great Britain, But it was not be cause free traders were disappointed in that respect that he was disposed not to listen to any unwise or foolish reductions in our military or naval establishment, nor was he inclined in any way to expose the security of the country to the intrigues of foreign nations.--( Hear, hear. ) Dr. BOWRING said the Noble Lord had evidently taken an erroneous view of the opinions of free traders. He had heard with regret some of the favourable terms of olden times, such as silly and miserable reductions, rash retrenchments, and so forth, for he believed the people entertained a strong hope that the military and naval establishments of the country would be diminished. For himself, he thought our merchants were a far better protection to the country than eitherthe h a u r s it it i n y or gs, the navy, and whatever might hereafter pass on he could only say that he had already recetvecimo the from his one strong remonstrance, more than one severe lesson his con stituents, to take care not to lend himself to any unnecessary augmentation of the funds appropriated to the support of the army and navy.—( Hear, hear.) Unlimited control was placed in the hands of the Government over the finances of the nation, and they ought to show their respect of that confidence by economising in the army and naval de p artments as much as p os sible.—( Hear, hear.) - Mr. WILLIAMS would make but a very few observations at this period of the debate. He was quite prepared to admit that any expenditure, however extravagant, would be defended by professional gentlemen connected with the army and navy, so far as they were concerned ; and perhaps they were justified in doing so.—( Hear, hear.) Ile had hoped that the Noble Lord the Prime Minister would have followed the example of the Governments of Earl Grey and Lora Melbourne of which the Noble Lord himself was a distinguished member. The first act of Earl Grey, after reforming the House of Com mons, was to propose a reduction in the expenditure in the army and navy; and when Lord Melbourne came into office, he mad *various further reductions in several departments, till at last they were brought down to something less than eight mil lions. He was surprised to h ear, t h e other night, the Right Honourable the Secretary f or t h e Admiralty, sta te, that the available army for Great Britain only amounted to 0 0 000 men. Now so far from this being th e case in the year 183 6, , reducing from the aggregate nu m b er, t h e men required for Ireland and the colonies, there wa s l e f t a f orce of 77.000 men disposable in Great Britain, which could have been brought down to the coast at any moment, to destroy the French army had they at tempted an invasion.—( Hear and laughter.) It was therefore his intention to propose a reduction of twenty the* and men when the Estimates came before them, and still,' after that reduction was notch the army would consist of 32,084 men more than it did in 1635. He should propose that the Horse Guards be reduced to 500 men, and Le could not see how the House could reasonably object to thi sr for no one ever saw co many as .SGO guards on d u t y at once.— , ( Hear, hear.) He would also propose a reduction in the Foot Guards of just one half, vie., from .5,260, to 2,630 ; the cost of this reduction would be 105,452/.—(Laughter) —the cost of the reduction of the Life Guards would be 115,0401.—(Laugh ter)—making a total cost in the reduction of these two depart. ments of 220,4921.—( Renewed laughter.) Mr. B. DISRAELI—Is that the cost of the reduction? Mr. WILLIAMS—Yes.—( Continued laughter.) The Hon. Member then went on to allude to the dead weight of the country—the pension list. The total amount of pensions was 3,702,000/. A great portion of those who received these sums had done nothing for the public service. He had no ob jeetion to see merit and services duly rewarded ; he would maintain in respectability every body who had lost his life in the public service —( Loud laughter)—or rather his widow and children. The Hon. Member then proceeded to state his be lief that if this country were to reduce its military establish ment,, France would do the same ; and proceeded at some length to show that the financial condition of that country rendered it imperatively necessary for the French Government to adopt that course. Mr. BROTHERTON protested against the time of the House being wasted in the manner it bad been by the Hon. Member who had just sat down. He should feel it his duty. if the course were pursued, to move the adjournment of the House.--( Hear, hear.) It was a great interruption to public business.—( Hear, hear.) He thought the House ought to go into Committee, and get at once to business.--(Hear,) The House then went into a Committee of Supply. ARMY ESTIMATES. Mr. FOX MA ULE said he thought the Hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. Williams) would not quarrel with him if he stated his opinion to the House, that he thought they were much indebted to the Hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Bro t her ton ) for the remarks he had just made. It would have been much more convenient to have discussed the several points which had been adverted to by the Hon. Member as they had arisen in Committee, than that he should have made a statement mixing up together the army, the navy, and the ortlnance, and thereby rendering it almost impossible to meet at once the Irish police, the Archbishop of Dublin, and the numerous other complaints of the Honourable Member.— ( Laughter.) With respect to the remarks of the Honourable Member for Montrose upon the army estimates, to the effect that there was a decrease upon the effective, but a large in crease upon the non-effective force, the .Hon. Member should have recollected that he was at least an accessory before the fact, because he was one of those who asserted as cordially as any ether Hon. Member to the remission of the charge upon the poundage of Chelsea pensioners, amounting to a sum of 50,0001. He would not then take upon himself to enter into the question of the general policy of the Government, but would confine himself to the business immediately before the Committee, if the Committee would bear w ith h im for few minutes while be made the usual financial statement of the military affairs of this country. He thought lie should best consult the convenience of the Committee if he applied himself to the estimates immediately before the House, and afterwards allude generally to those topics of military interest of which the Committee might be desirous oflearning something at his hand. Upon reference to the estimates, it would appear that the number of men to be voted in the aggregate for the ensuing year was 138,895, the gross charge for these would be 5,155,8481. The gross charge for the non-effective force during the present year was 2,175,2271., making a total gross charge of 7,331,0751. From that sum, however, there fell to be de ducted the sum paid for 30,497 men by the East India Com pany £972,211 Appropriations in aid of the effective force ... - 52,375 Balance from the Royal Military College Appropriation in aid of the Royal Military Asylum 6,145 Appropriations in aid of the non-effective force 7,137 Making a total to be deducted from the gross charge of . Leaving a charge on the present year of 6,275,0741. ' and the number of men to be voted 108,398, maki ng a sma ll decrease upon the number which was taken last year, of 210 men. There were some charges of course in the different arrange ments of this number, and he thought it right t o s t a t e some of those charges to the Committee. There has been a decrease in the regiments coming from foreign service. Five regiments which will arrive from foreign service, bad, during the time they were abroad, borne a strength of one thousand men, those regiments would be reduced upon their arrival at home, each of them, to eight hundred men, That reduction, together with a reduction of some nen-com missioned officers, would cause a total reduction of 1,075 men . There was also another small reduction, amounting to 37 men, which would make a total reduction of 1,111 men. With the exception of 210 men, those diferenees were supplied in the following manner, and as it involved a principle, he would make a statement upon that subject to the Committee, in as short a time ss possible. It is proposed to raise a body of 682 men, including office's, for the service of the garrison at the service of Hong Kong,Hong- n a Kong, and it was also p ro p ose d t o a dd t hi s body to the Ceylon corps,andin the Governmentadoptingthis mode w would 1 dr providing i ditnnigg for lt op princi ple which had formerly been much discussed in that House, a principle up on w hi c h h e h a d very considerable opinions, and that was the mode of applying, wherever it was possible, the colonial corps, for the purpose of taking charge of the colonial possessions.—( Hear, hear.) This mode was more economical in point of administration, and infinitely more economical in a still more essential point of view, he alluded to the preserva tion of the health and lives of soldiers —(Hear, hear)—and therefore it was that the Government had come to the resolu tion that, instead of keeping British troops at Hong Kong, where he was sorry to say that they had fallen a prey to diseases incident to that climate, it would be better, and they had accor di ng ly p ro p ose d t h a t t h e garr i son of Hong Kong should be occupied by a corresponding number of men drawn from the Ceylon corp.. Another increase, and this, although the first, he was afraid would not be the last increase, in the Cape corps. The Governor had already added two companies to that eorrs, amounting to 174 men. But Sir 11. Pottinger and Major-General Berkley, who had recently gone oet there, had been instructed to add four more companies to that c.erps, and he would say that it was in contemplation fur ther to consider the means of providing for the de• fences of the extended territory of that colony, by means of colonial corps, so as to relieve this country of a considerable portion of the expense. There was also another small addition of 45 men, making a total addition of 901 men, which taken Irons the 1,111 men left an actual de crease for the ensuing year of 210 men. The Hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. Williams) proposed to effect a reduction of 20,000 men; for his part he would say that if the Government could spare 20,000 men, without retereucc to the defences of the country, but simply with respect to the general operation of the relief of the burdens upon the country, he should be happy to do so. His belief was that if the Government wished to relieve their regiments in ans thing like a proper man ner—( Hear, hear)—the nso:t effectual manner of pre venting their doing so would he to diminish the force in the mode prescribed by the Honourable Member for Coventry. He believed that there was at the present period no regiment which had not been in India for a period of upwards of 141 years, and he believed that there was now no regiment at home which had remained in this country for more than few years, and he hoped that in the course of time (for it would require time to effect it) that the Government would be able to bring down the largest term of absence of any regiment from this country to a period not exceeding thirteen years. lie would then pass on to the next vote— the charge for the land forces for the ensuing year. Upon the land force charge there was a decrease to the public of 44,1511., owing to appropriations in aid. Had it not been for these appropriations there would not have been any reduction on this charge. The next vote to which he came was the staff. On that vote there was an increase of 8,3431., which was occasioned by the force they were obliged to send to the Cape of Good Hope, and I think the Committee will be of opinion that the worst way to endeavour to settle the little wars was to do so in a little way. The effect of the contrary mode of proceeding was apparent at the Cape, for the move ment that had taken place had completely paralysed the Caffres, and had laid the foundation of the hope of submission. No corps could acquit themselves more gallantly than that which was commanded by Colonel Somerset. On that vote, therefore, there would be an increase, as he had stated, of 6,043/. • The fourth vote on the estimates was in the Public Department, and the increase on that was 2,0934 which was caused by the increase of postage, and was caused. by the increase of work in the department. The next vote was for the Royal Military Asylum. The estimate for this year was 17,633/., and for last year 14,062/., there being an increase of 3,5711, for a vote to which he would allude more particularly by and bye—one for the fur ther..nce of a new system of education in that establish ment, but he would at present pass on to the other votes. The next vote was for the volunteer corps, which it was pro posed to increase this year to 3,929/. In the estimates last year a vote of 36,5001. was taken for the unprovided services, hut it was not proposed this year to take any vote for them, but to leave them to be paid for as they might arise. Taking, then, the sum 01 these respective increases, 17,936/. from this 36,5001., the vote for tie unprovided services of last year, a balance of 18,5641. would be left, which, if added to the de crease on the land force, would make altogether a decrease in the effective services of 62,7051. He now came to the non effective services. The Honourable Member for Mon. trose said that there was a large increase on these services. He said there was a steady increase on every vote. Now he (Mr. F. Mauls) did not think the Hon. Gentleman studied these estimates with the care he usually bestowed upon them, because a comparison of this year's estimates with those of last year, was not a fair one, inasmuch as the vote of last year comprehended merely three quarters, while the vote of this year extended over four. He (Mr. F. Maule) should, there fore, take the account in its various details, and would state it to the House. The first vote was for the reward of distin guished services. On this vote there was an increase of 3,740/. The estimated charge of last year (four quarters) had been calculated would have amounted to 16,0791., while for this year the vote was 15,740/., so that, in point of fact, there was an actual decrease this year of 3391., though there was an apparent increase. This, however, was not a vote on w hich the Hon. Member would like to see a st ead y decrease. Those ' who had the interests of the army a t heart would not . o bj ect to an occasional increase of this vote. This yea ror e i t i ro a us services proposed to give 1,040/. to officers as rewards for meritorious e In this vote it was The next vote was the pay o f general oT 3 c _ _ bat that vote proposed to make an inc rease of sOOOl contained the expenses of theagainst arrangements which the f th . educt. Hon. Member protested—theexpenses o r of last e brevet year, whic D h was however, lug, the extra q 16,000 1 ., the real increase over the vote of last year was re duced to 17,000/. And a brevet going to the extent it did the ordinary estimate of only 17,000/. with an increase over could afford ' , rounds for any diasatis w n ot a matter whic h This vote vote was for the retiring full-pay. faction. The next vo te was est im ated at 13,00 0! ., while for that of last year it 5, was . t 000/•, s o that on this vote there was a reductiou of 2,000'. He now • came to the half-pay, and his Hon. Friend said that this was a vote continually increasing. Mr. WILLIAMS—OnIy apart of it. Mr. F. MAULE—His Hon. Friend said only a part of it. Well, he held in his hand a paper which gave the state of this vote from 1830, from which it appeared that it was going on gradually decreasing from 720.000/. to 420,0001. There was an actual decrease this year of 14,000/. He now came to the foreign half pay. The vote last year was for 50,281/, but for this year it was 49,136/., so that there was a decrease of 1,1451. He now came to the widow's pension. The vote last. year was 135,819/., and for the pre sent it was proposed to be 131,854/., so that there would be a decrease of 6,9651. He held in his hand a comparative state ment of this vote from 1830, and it was gradually reduced from 145,0001. to 131,854/. There was also to be a reduction on the next vote. The vote for the compassionate allowances was also to be reduced. Last year the vote was 102,000/., and for the present year it was proposed to be 98,00 W. On the vote for the pensions for Chelsea and Kil mainham, calculating the four quarters of last year, there was a small increase in the estimate of last year of 1,973!., which went to the establishment at Chelsea. He now came to the out .pensioners, for whom the largest vote in the service was reeuired. This year showed an increase of 43,383/., the whole charge being 1,236,073 1 . Last year the charge wos 1,191,3151. It was necessary to explain the cause of this increase. He found that there were 961 more men ott this list than last year, whose pensions amounted to 14,0511. The commuted pensions amounted to 1,500/., and others, of ' to 1,744, which would have re. smaller amount, duced this vote, but for the increase of numbers to which he had referred. The Howe had relinquished the charge formerly made on out-pensioners, on the payment of their allowances, which had led to an increase of 50,0001.; but he thought this was simply an act of justice, to which be wag sure no one would for a moment object. Next there was a charge of 60,0001., to which he wished to call particulsr REPORTS. The following reports were brought up and agreed to, and the Bills ordered to be committed:— Birmingham District Fire Insurance Company. Protestant Dissenters and General Life and Fire In surance Company. Llynvi Iron Company. Mr. FOSTER presented a petiton complaining of the light dues. Dr. BOWRING presented a petition from the execu tors of Mr. M. B. 'frisbane, a gentleman who died in India, complaining that after they had pa!el legacy duty to the Crown, the Courts had decided that it. could not be demanded. The Honourable Member gage notice that to-morrow he would move that the petition be printed with the votes, with the view of founding a motion upon it. Mr. ELLIS presented, a petition from Coventry com plaining of the law of settlement. POOR LAW FOR IRELAND. Mr. P. SCROPE presented nine or ten petitions from diff,rent parishes in the county of Cork, all praying that the House would be pleased to pass a complete poor law for Ireland similar to the English law, and w hich would give a right to the able-bodied to out door relief ; they also prayed the House not to place any confidence in the objections to such a measure of those who styled themselves the Irish party, who by no means represented the wishes and the feelings of the great body of the Irish people. The petitions had been signed by the r a t e -p a y ers i n th e different parishes—one from Skibbereen had obtained the signa tures of one thousand inhabitants, and the Catholic clergyman had assured him that had it been allowed to remain another day, it would have received at least twenty thousand signatures. PRIVATE BILLS. Mr. HUME said it might be recollected that in the last session the House had agreed to a report on certain private Bills with a view to economy, and the establish ment of a system of uniformity in the mode of conduct ing the business of the House. The Committee recom mended that no private Bill should be allowed to proceed until the sense of the House was taken upon its merits. lie would, therefore, move that the House do agree to the fiat report of the Committee. Lord G. SOMERSET would wish to be infcrmed at what reriud the private Bills would come before the House ? Mr. STRUTT said that on Thursday next he would place such Bills as related to railway legislation on •the table of the House. He could only speiik for those four Bills which had already passed, the first stage in the House. After some further discussion, At the suggestion of Mr. CARDWELL, the further consideration of the motion was postponed till Thursday next. TION. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that her Majesty had been graciously pleased to direct the Lords of the Council to appoint a day of national fast and humilia tion for the country. BUILDINGS ACT. Mr. FOSTER wished to know whether the House might expect the Government to lay upon the table any measure for the amendment of the Buildings' Act, passed some time since ? Lord MORPETH said that the subject had been under the consideration of the House, and he hoped shortly to be able to lay it upon the table of the House. WAGES OF LABOURERS IN SLIGO. Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN wished to know whether the Government had made any inquiries into the truth of the statement which had been published in some of the newspapers, as to the labourers in Sligo receiving only eightpence per day wages from the Board of Works ? Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he had communicated with the Board of Works, and be had received infor mation that the wages of the labourers in the part re ferred to by the Hon. Member was only at the rate of Bd. per day. The reasons which had induced the Board of Works to adopt this course,arose from its being thought desirable to encourage a system of task work. The sys tem of task work was open to any labourer who wished to adopt it, and it was only when task work was not performed that the wages of eightpence per day were given to the labourers.—(Hear, hear.) Now, it must be remembered that the average daily wages in the county of Sligo was only 6d. a day. It was deemed important not to divert more than was ab solutely necessary of the labour required for the culti vation of the soil, and for agricultural purposes. Under those circumstances the officers of the Board of Works had thought it better to employ only one man out of every family, instead of raising the prices of agricultural labour to more than Bd. a day; and although at the present price of provisions it was difficult to support a family, yet, in order to extend the relief as much as possible, it was deemed advisable to adopt the rule of employing only one male from each family. With regard to another point, namely, the proportion that the expenses of the staff bore to the total expenditure, he was happy to say that the anticipations of the Hon. Member were altogether unfounded. He found that the number of labourers employed was from 19,000 to 20,000, that there was one overseer for every forty labourers, and a check clerk for every 280. He found, also, that the total expenditure for a month was 27,8771., and that from this amount a sum of 2,110/. for day clerks, check clerks, &c., was to be deducted. Mr. %V. S. O'BRIEN wished to know if the Right [lon. Gentleman the Secretary for Irelaud thought that Bd. a day would support a family? Mr. P. SCROPE wished to know what provision bad been made for infirm paupers who were not able to b. employed upan the roads? The only measure that was destined for their relief was one which would not come into operation before the next autumn. He had a letter in his hand from a gentleman in Carlow, in which it was stated that this class had been reins( d admission into the workhouse, and the guardians refused to relieve them till they had built temporary sheds for their accommodation. The other mcde to which he referred was by relief committees, and they were interdicted from giving relief by the limited means at their command, the Government only , supplying assistance in proportion to voluntary sub scription.—(Cries of " Order, order.") The question he wished to ask was, what certainty of relief the Hon. Gentleman could hold out, under those circumstances, to the old, the infirm ' women, and children? Mr. LABOUCHERE, in reply to the Hon. Gentle man, did not believe that the class referred to were likely to suffer from starvation. The present system of public works would be continued until the plan proposed to be substituted came into operation, and ho did not apprehend that the inconvenience re ferred to by the lion. Gentleman would ever arise. Mr. HUME wished to know if the Government had fixed a day when the present expenditure on the public works would cease? Mr. LABOUCHERE replied that it bad not; but the system intended to be substituted would come into operation with as little delay as possible. THE ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL. Sir ROBER r H. INGLIS wished to know whether a motion for the Committee on the Roman Catholic Relief Bill would be proposed before Easter ? Mr. ESCOTT said that it would be proposed imme diately after Easter. THE MEASURES FOR IRELAND. Sir J. D. NORREYS said that, before passing the measures for the relief of the suffering Irish, he thought it would be better to appeal to the Irish landlords. Mea sures might be adopted to promote tillage. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he was not at all satis fied that there was any prospect of the Hon. Gentleman's views being carried out at present with respect to tillage. CUSTOMS DUTIES BILL. In answer to a question from Lord G. BENTINCK, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he anticipated he should be able to bring on the Customs' Duties Bill on Friday. GRANT FOR EDUCATION. Mr. HINDLEY asked the Noble Lord at the head of the Government if be was prepared to state the amount he intended to propose for the educational grant in the miscellaneous estimates, and whether he intended to bring specially before the notice of the House the Minutes of the Council of Education, laid on the table the sth day of February, or leave them to be incidentally discussed on the vote for education being proposed in the Committee of Supply. Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied that the vote would be the same as that taken last year, but with regard to the application of the sum he could only say that they did not intend to propose any new resolution upon the subject. In reply to a question from Mr. SHAW, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he intended to appoint the Committee of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill imme diately after the Committee of Ways and Means. THE DISTRESS IN TIIE WEST OF SCOTLAND. Mr. BAILEY hoped he would have the indulgence of 1 the House for a few moments to some statements which had been made in that House in consequence of a question ; put by the Honourable Member for ife, relating to the distress on the west coast of Scotland. On that occasion reference had been made to a report by the Sheriff-Substitute of Fort `Villain, into which certain charges had been introduced against proprietors in that district, that they had been neglect ing their tenants. Among the others was one against Mr. McDonald, of Glengarrie, where it was stated that that proprietor had 150 bolls of meal for the relief of the poor, but the store-house had been locked up since Christmas, and not a pound could be got oat for love or money. He had received a letter lately from Mr. M'Do mild, in which he stated, in November last,ihe had sent from his private resources 20/. in money, 100 bolls of meal, and 100 bolls of Indian corn, besides rice and biscuits. That was sent for the purpose of being dis pensed; his factor had instructions to that effect, and a letter from that factor last week stated that he had complied, and he was desired to continue to do so. Mr. McDonald:was a man of the highest honour, and he (Mr. Bailey) stated this upon his credit. Ile regretted to state that the Blue Book which had been published contained charges, and had been published previous to tin* being given for answers from the proprietors. It had been reported concerning Mrs. Stewart M'Kenzie by Sir E. Coffin, no t on ly th a t s h e h a d neg l ec t e d h e r tenants generally, b u t th a t t wo p ersons h a d di e d of starvation estates.that two Now ,per s o s n h s e h haadd died made of and t e on result her was, th natural causes, the one being an old woman between eighty and ninety years of age, and her daughter, who died of con sumption, being, while they lived, within two or three miles of a meal store, opened by Mrs. McKenzie, and out of which she had ordered that relief should be given to the destitute. He had taken the opportunity of doing what he believed to be but justice to these proprietors. Mr. E. ELLICE gave the fullest credit to the Go verntnent for the course they had adopted, and he should not be doing justice to the Government if he did not take the earlest opportunity of saying that the Government had done all that was in the power of any Government to do to ward off the effects of this terrible calamity.--(Hear, hear). He thought that, however laudable the intentions of the Government were, the merit of rendering these intentions perfectly effective was mainly due to those gallant officers who had the charge of carrying out the measures of the Government. Sir GEORGE GREY did not think that the charge made by the lion. Member was quite borne out by the facts as stated in the blue books. Mr. COLLETT was unwilling to take up the time of the House, but he thought it his duty to mention cer tain facts which had come to his own knowledge respect ing the employment of the poor in Ireland. He thought it fair to state, that since th e debate on the B . of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, he (Mr. Collett) had inquiries, made i • and he could state , that in the island of Anglesea, where the potato crop bad failed to as great an extent as in Ireland, the formation of a railway had induced a state of prosperity unexampled in that island. The Holyhead Railway Company had employed from 3,400 to 4,000 labourers, out of which number 2,500 were Welshmen, 700 Irishmen, and about 300 Englishmen. They had only ex pended about 100,0001. The same fact was seen in some of the Irish railways. If they looked at the railway from Mary borough through Thurles to Mallow, they would find that a state of prosperity resulted from the expeuditure of cipit4l by that i I I