The Sun. — London, England, 1847-04-23 00:00:00

waathy of the Noble Lord, worthy of the name he bears, and tie believed that the career of the Noble Lord would be yet the brightest illustration of that name. Sir JOHN PAKINGTON desired to offer his thanks to the Noble Lcrd (J. Russell) for his course upon the present question, and to tender him his support. There was no part of the Hon. Baronet's speech that he dissented from so much as that portion which alleged that the Government plan had been triumphantly re futed. So far from ag reein g in thi s opinion , he thought that the case of the Government had been most clearly and conclusively maintained. Why had the speeches of the Hon. Members for Fiesbury and Durham been so 42 feeble ? Why, but because that they had no system of Wtheir own to propose—no scheme or plan on which to proceed. He considered the opening speech of the No ble Lord at the !lead of the Government had anticipated every objection, and completely made out the necessity of the proposed grant. Fortified, as that speech had been by the able speeches of the Right flonottrable Member for Edinburgh, and the Right Hon. Baronet the Home Secretary, little remained for him to say. He would only refer to one point. It was that which proposed to leave out certain Dissenters from participating in the grant. He could not agree with that dir elusion. A ‘ s a member of the Church of England, and also as a member of the National Society, he wished to deal with the subject before them in a charitable spirit. There were several most important institutions in the country which would not be eligible for the grant. lie might instance one of the most valuable establish ments in the country, at which the children of the Churchmen and the Dissenters met together, and were educated, in the most ha.rnionious manner. No difficulty whatever had ever arisen on account of religion. The establishment to which he referred was King Edward's Grammar School at Birmingham. The Hon. Member then read an extract from the rules under which the school was managed.—The following was a statement of the children of the different persuasions in that school: — Church of England 793 Independents Wesleyans Baptists SoCinians Lady lluntingdon's - Jews 4 - Roman Catholics 4 Swedenborgians Calvini , t3 1 Quakers .. This large school was conducted in this harmonious manner, lie confessed that he wished most earnestly that he could confine the schools in such a manner as to give religious education to the children, in accordance with the principles of the Church of England ; but, whatever might 1 - Ps his own private opinion on the sub- Le* he must allow some weight to the principles and opaions of the other great sects and parties throughout the country.—(llear, bear.) lie thought the ar guments of her Maj,:sty's Government, in bringing forward this nvesure, perfectly conclusive, and he hoped that the attention of Government would be shOrtly turned to the condition of the labourer, and to the sanatory condition of the people of this country. He must confess, however, that he was to some extent h odis appointed, because her Majesty's Government had _ proceeded in a more comprehensive manner titan they had done upon these subjects.—(Hear, hear.) 'Mr. HUMT' was anxious to say a few words upon this subject, as he mutt say that from promises arid pledges given by the Noble Lord the Member for the city of London to his constituency he did expect to have seen a Ilan more comprehensive than that introduced upon the present occasion. The Noble feerti stated in the corn rnmeement of the present session that he was prepared with a more extended plen of general education, and he seas quite surprised that at the present time, when a Vi to of 700,0001. wee tokTn f; .e. areny alone that the paltry .sum of leo,ooei only should he r. - -qeired to carry out the plan of the Goverement with respect to the education of the couetry. He thought that to people of England were willing to bear :4 much larger sum for that purpose.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon Member for Ediebeceli (!Ir. Meeetil ty) had made a most eloquent, and a most forcible speech upon the subject, and the arguments brought forward in that s?eech were in his opinion perfectly unanewerehle, and he most cordially agreed with the Right Hon. Gerele man in considering the present state of education in Scotland as resulting frein the improved and general system of education which prevailed in that country.— (Hear, hear.) The system of establishing schools in ever r parish of Scotland was a most desireable: and effi cient one, and one witch ho should be most happy to see carried out in this country. He quite agreed with the eq,nduee of the Prussian Government, in prosecuting the education of the people, he believe with the Hight Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, that it was the duty of every Government to do its utmost to promote the education of the people, and he regretted to hear any Hon. Member in that House say that it was no the duty of the Government to endeavour to edu cate the people. He really thought that that was one of the first, if not the first, duties of the State. He could not reconcile the statement of the Hon. Member for Derby, that the people of Scotland could most of them write a good letter, and yet he went on to say that the people were little better than " barbarians." He would dismiss the subject from hie mind, and hurl back the charge thus made upon his country, by saying that the !etakements of the Hon. Member were perfectly incon sistent and irreconcileable. The Hon. Member then proceeded to contrast the state of education in Prussia and the United States, where a system of State edu cation prevailed, with the state of education t he this country, where there did not exist any general system of Government education. The result of the analysis of crime in England fur the lest three years, showed that there was a decrease of 32 per cent. in the countries where the people were best educated. Mr. Neeson, who made out these tables, made it evident that wherever there was crime there also was ignorance, and the complete absence of the means of education. To show that Mr. Laing never intended to say that education did no good, he would refer to the ob servations he made in favour of the penny postage, of which he was an anxious supporter. He agreed with Mr. Laing that every measure ought to be sanctioned which even indirectly promoted education. He was told by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, and the Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests, that they were beset with difficulties in this measure, and that they deplo re d t h ey could not carry out a more extensive system of education. He maintained that it was the right of every one to have education, and it was not a matter of toleration. A Catholic or a Dis senter was as good a man as a member of the Church of Egland, and had as good a claim to the advantage of State education. He did not assent to the character of moral courage which was so generally given to the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) On this question the Noble Lord displayed the greatest cowardice. He was afraid to take the course which hie judgment approved, and sculked in the most shameful manner from the adoption of the right course. He was geerng to answer the grounds on which Mr. Baines proceeded in his opposition to the education scheme, but he wild not allude to them now. His own opinion was, that the dissenters and the members of the Church of England ought to be put into the same boat and sent across the channel. Ho thought an effort should he made to unite all classes, and he did not doubt, joking from the evidence they had from Holland and frorn Ireland, that this was practica' , lo. He thought if her Majesty's Government agreed to appoint a Committee to enquire what each party wanted, that means could be devised for this purpose. They adoptel such a proceeding with regard to the navigation-laws, the poorelaws, and other questions, and he did not doubt, but if this were done with regard to educa tion, a mode would be pointed out to reconcile all differ • ences. When Holland was under subjection to France, at the time of the French revolution, an attempt was made by France to give education combined with reli giorto the people of Holland, and this attempt was met by'M' . • e ministers of the various creeds in a spirit of good will. The consequence was ; that the clergymen of the different persuasions and the schoolmaster—each in theist respective sphere—carried out the intentions of the Government. The next qsea he had to bring befopc them to show the prectic/bility of combining a religions and secular education, was the national system of education adopted in Ireland, and he would refer to tab 9th report of the National Board, to show the per fect success which had attended their efforts. He attributed much of the crime which existed in this country to the religious differences which prevailed; and those wiao fomented them could not lay their hands • on their hearts and say, that they were doing their duty to God and man; and if crime could be repressed by education, as he thought it might in a great degree, it would be cheaply purchased at 500,0001. a-year, instead of 100,0001., or at almost any cost. He considered that the state of things in this country required a greater and more comprehensive measure than the one proppsed, and if the Committee sought were granted he &Dula be able to prove that a truly national system of education might be carried out without any of the ' s which appeared to be involved in the Government f"r t • He also considered that there ought to be a aster of Instruction in this country, assisted by a board of persons selected from the most competent in the community, to whom the task of superintending the educatlOft of the people should be intrusted. It was on These. rounds that he felt it his duty to vote for the amendment of his Hon. Friend. Sir W. JAMES said he should support the plan of the Government, because he considered that the time had come when it was the incumbent duty of the State to promote the education of the people by every means in its power. If they wanted evidencet of this necessity, it was to be found in the fact ha 4 t o out of every 100 of the population, only from 30 could read, and that nthoeteohilde 1,000,000 or 800,000 the poor were r,•- ceiving no education at all, and weneroeflntg profession.brought up to to ripine, as it were, 2S a him that a great preeportion of the public appearedfeel favour of the plan. Looking at the state n was in Church, of the different dissenting. denorni:Efit'On'e, there was as large a mass of public ' feeling' denominations, • in f l avour of it as was ever given in support of any other publie measure which had of late years engaged the at tention of that House. The Hon. Gentleman the Mem ber for Montrose was the only one in that House who had advocated a compulsory system of education ; but be did not agree with him, as he considered that the plan of aiding the voluntary efforts of benevolent indi ,vidnals was the best that could be adopted, and that a compulsory system was foreign to the habits of the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.) But where a * t i inquired e in we a re d n is o tri b c e t, nev su e c le h nt as p . a r so o n l s l i e t cry o It ° r ( i ) c l t h w" w he ze re ciu aiil it by voluntary contributions, he thought that the state should step forward and provide the necessary funds.—(Hear, hear.) He was strongly opposed to a secular system of education, as he considered that reli gion was an important pert of education ; yet he be lieved it to contain more of good than evil ; and, there fore, he would not deny that mode of education to those Of his fellow-countrymea who were in favour of it, ' TITE BUl``, _LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 23, 1847. leaving the religious portion of the education to the clergymen of the different denominations, and to the parents of the chil.lren. He perfectly concurred in the remarks of the Nob!e Lord, the Member for Arundel, (Lord Surrey), who spoke so much to his credit the other night.—(Hear. hear.) As, he said, that although those of the Roman Catholic persuasion were not to participate in the grant that he should not, on that ground deny aid from the funds of the State for the p ur p ose of aiding in promoting education amongst other sects.—(Hear, hear.) Yet he (Sir W. James) could not help thinking that the exclusion of that portion of the community would be another Catholic disability.—(Hear, bear.) He thought the speech of the Hon. Member for Durham was one more against the Church and the aristocracy than anything else ; and he regretted to see a Gentle man, who had attained such a position in the country, would come forward and give utterance to such preju diced sentiments as he had done. Sir JOHN EASTHOPE said it was with the deepest regret that he saw her Majesty's Government submit to consult the expeeeney of the moment, which they had e an c d oni th r e r r o e m w is a e s m on a e de gr b ea et te: e , en and th tl a ia c t h w u a re s h th o e f done the present measure. There we re great objec utinofnosrttuonlati E werergteli the enx(iNc Noble the edL._ o Lord r( d r excluded.—(Hear, e h E 3 e:a r n r l s ) o ' fb:Hreuwhich )i admired ad h n e d thehhe speech Catholics hoped op e d that the Wesleyana would from it learn true sentiments of Christian charity. Mr. SHARMA"ei CRAWFORD said it was his intention to vote for the Hon. Member's amendment, fur he did feel that the measure of the Government was a violation of the rights of the people, and was a violation ' of religious liberty, because it gave undue advantages to one sect over another. He was as anxious to support education as any man in the House; but the exclusion of the Catholics was most unworthy of the Gov( rn ment. Ile did give great praise to the Earl of Arundel fcr his speech, but it emanated rather from the goodness of his heart than anything else; but he would say that the people of England would respect the Catholic body if they stood upon their rights, for he did not know on what principles any Catholic Member in that House could vote for the proposition of the Government. The Methodist bodies in the town of Rochdale were not parties to any compromise which might have been en tered upon. They had commissioned him to present many addresses, which embodied the truest principles of religious liberty. On the subject cf the Maynooth grant, he was one of those who opposed that grant, on the ground that it was hostile to civil and religious rights, and he now opposed this grant on the ground that the civil and religious rights of the Catholics themselves were interfered with. He did not wish that the Church to which he belonged should exercise any undue influ ence over the religious or civil rights of any sect whic'e differed from it. For these various reasons, he would give his vote in favour of the amendment. Sir W. MOLESWORTH entirely agreed in the opinion of the Hon. Member who had last spoken, and with the Hon. Member for Montrose, that a Sp tern of national secular education. divested of every interference in religious opinion, would be far preferable to the measure proposed. With regard to the measure itself, the first question was, should the Government interfere at all in the education of the people 2—secondly, to what extent it should do so ?—and, thirdly, as to the nature of the education to be given by them ? There were many opinions upon this subject outside, in favour of the non-interference of the Government under any circumstances ; but he would ask whether it was not the duty of every Government to promote the interests of the public and of the Government by Oucating the people? The Government should teach the people the difference between right and wrong, as that alone would make them willingly obedient to the laws ; and,-there fore, the education of the people was a matter of primary importance to the State. He thought that the State should educate the people. Wi:h regard to i crime, they were at that moment at their wits end to prevent its increase. He was chairman of a Comtnittc which had to deliberate with reference to this subject, and they could devise no means to prevent its increase. Although good gaols and good gaolers might in some degree check the progress of crime, yet he thought that good schools and good schoolmasters would check it still more. No person objected to large expenditure on the part of the State in matters of less importance than the education of tho people, and there should, therefore, no objection be offered in any expenditure for that edu cation. He would ask those who were the opponents of State interference, if there were not hundreds of thou sands of people in this country too poor to educate their children ? How then were they to be educated, except by private charity, under which such an efficient system of superintendence as could be exercised under a na tional regulation would be impossible. Many of these educational charities, especially those supported by voluntary contributions, were deficient in funds, depending upon accidental donations for their resources, to increase which they were obliged to have recourse to the most unfortunate, and he might almost say degrading solicitations. If he were a member of the humbler class he should feel it more consonant with his feelings to have his children educated at - the expense of the state than by private charity. He should rather claim the education of his children from the State as a right, and to which he was entitled for the benefit of the community, than receive it from the uncertain bounty of his fellows citizens, from whom he should take it as a boon and as a favour.— (Ilear, hear.) The next question was as to what extent, and in what manner the State should interfere in edu cation? In his opinion the State should interfere so far as that, no children should from want of means re main ignorant of so much of the elements of an educa tion as would tend to save them from crime.—(llear.) This system should be carried out without reference to creed or belief. There had been three methods pro• posed in which this interference on the part of the State should have been made, of which he considered that the only practicable one was the proposal that the State should contribute to the support of the alrerdy existing schools of each sect. The dissenters of a certain class had, to some extent, thrown an obstacle in the way of the last measure which he had mentioned, as they had a conscientious objection to receiving any grant from the State. In our eastern dominions the people were some times in danger of perishing by starvation, from the failure of the rico crop, and the Government attempted to remedy the deficiency by supplies of animal food, to which the people bad an insuperable objection, founded on their religion. He thought that what food was to the body, education was to the mind. the last objection to which he would refer, was a very grave one. It was the proposition to leave out the-Ro man Catholic altogether. He had been much astonished at this arrangement, and up to this week he believed no one out of the Government knew that such an exclusion would be proposed. He regretted the interpretation which had been given t.) the minutes of 1839. This in terpretation had not, however, been given to it till 1847. Since 1839 till then, no such interpretation had taken place. The Noble Lord said, that as soon as Roman Catholics applied for the grant their application would be taken into consideration, but that, as yet, no such ap plication had been made. This was, however, incorrect. In February last a Mr. Langdon applied to the Council in respect to the educational grant, and Dr. Kay Shut tleworth replied to him, that their Lordships would, if a definite application was made to them in respect to the Roman Catholics, they would give it their most careful consideration. That this was the interpretation of the minutes would seem to he the case, from the proceedings of the Wesleyan Committee of Education, in March and April 19 t 4, according to certain letters and documents of theirs, published in last week's Watchman. To the letters there addressed to the Coun cil of Education they replied that they would be disposed to give every consideration to any objections the Wes leyans might have to offer to the mode rocommen.lcd by the former. A conference ensued, in which the Council made such explanations about the Scriptures being either read daily entire, or extracts-from them, in the schools, such as to remove the objections of the Wesleyans. This would have included the Catholics, as nothing was then said about the authorised verson being alone used. (The Hon. Member then quoted the resolutions of a public meeting, held a few days ago, the Earl of Shrews bury in the chair, complaining of the exclusion to which the Government proposed to subject them in this grant.) After the speeches made by the Noble Lord the Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire (Lord Morpeth), and the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Devonport (Sir G. Grey), he felt encouraged to give notice that he would move, in some stage of the present question, a re. solution declaring that in any future grant the Roman Catholics should be admitted to participate in it on the same footiug as other religious sects.—(fleer, hear.) Lord MAHON supported the proposition of the Go vernment. When they considered the enormous amount of ignorance which prevailed, he could not see what other course they could take than supporting this grant. By re ferring to the various reports submitted to this House, they would find the enormous amount of ignorancewhich prevailed and the necessity which existed for the change It was impossible that they could have things as• they were, and a change was, therefore, necessary- If this plan of. the Hon. Member for Dumfries were im practicable, as he thought it was, then there remained only some such measure as that of her Majesty's Government. He thought, for instance, that the propo sition of providing retiring pensions and situations, under certain circumstances, under Government, would require to be abandoned. Still, as a whole, he would undoubtedly support the Government, believing their scheme to have been brought forward in an earnest and truthful spirit. When he looked to the present artificial state of society, be could net think that they were alto gether faultless who opposed even this limited measure of education ; he thought that they should, before punishing crime, give the people the means of knowing g,ool from evil. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that he was al e - ays very unwilling unnecessarily to occupy the time and attention of the House, but as he coneluded that the lion. Member for Finsbury intended to press his motion to a dirLion, he could not reconcile it to his sense of duty to give a silent vote on that occasion. The motion made by the Noble Lord at the head of the Gsvernment was that they should resolve themselves into a Commit tee of Supply f or t h e purpose of vot i ng 100,000 1 . of the publi c money in aid of education. The motion moved as an amendment by the Hon. Member f o r Fi ns b ur y was that a S e l ect Committee be appointed for the purpise of a n t o a to n ri i o nr rznd inquiry. Now it appeared to him, in reference to this s fa u c b t j s e zt, wereth was altogether superfluous. The notorious; and that there was a great inade pacy of the education in England was admitted on all hands. of then, he presumed. was made (as had been hinted lon t jo , r the purpose of conveying a censure on her Majesta's) pressions of dissent from differentypartsvoefnirn"%e()x. a nd although he was not prepared to eay that t ‘ h o e d n , To s i i i' c - ot been committed in this matter, yet it would, the difficulties which surrounded the question, be inil?igs opinion unjust in the extreme to mark with severit • anything that nfght have been done amiss. He wa 3 s well aware of the extreme difficulty that attended this question, and he felt bound to say, therefore, that they should rather endeavour to rectify their omissions, than ensure what they might discover to be wrong. It was in this spirit that he should direct his attention to the matter under discussion ; and on the threshold of this subject the abstract question presented itself; as to whether it was, or was not, the duty of the State to in terfere with the education of the people. He could not hesitate, in discussing this abstract question, at coming to the conclusion that it was not only one among the highest duties of the State, but among the noblest, if not indeed the most noble, functions of the Government, to do everything to extend and diffuse knowledge, to elevate the moral, and cultivate the religious feeling of the people committed to its care, and looking at this as a Christian assembly, he could not hesitate to state that the noblest and purest system of education for the people was that system of morals which had received the Divine sanction, and which held out to mankind on the one hand a future state of eternal reward, or on the other a state of eternal punishment. But this view of the subject would lead him into considerations which at present he did not intend to enter upon. To pass them from that subject, and to tura from the abstract to the practical question, if it were to be admitted for the pur poses of the debate, that in the abstract it was the duty of the State to promote the education of the people, the real question as a practical one would be, how could that duty be best performed? Now, as was the case with all matters of policy, the practical question must be considered in reference to the varied circumstances in the different parts of the United Kingdom. The question had been transferred to Scot land by the most able and eloquent Gentleman who re presented the metropolis of that country, and in refer ence to Scotland, it should be remembered that at an early period of its history the happy circumstances oc curred of the one religion being e:nbraccd by the entire people, and the education of the country was delegated to the Church. There was here no difficulty, as, when the Presbyterian religion was first introduced in the reign of James "1., and again in the reign of William 111., edu cation was altogether confided to the national Church, formed part of its social and prac tical system, and received the sanction of the Scottish Parliament first, and afterwards of the Parlia ment of the United Kingdom. The education of the people progressed in strict alliance with the Church as by law established until the late disruption, which he to that day deplored. Religious feelings and secular edu cation went hand in band, and very many circumstances combined to elevate the people of that portion of the island in history, and enabled the country, notwith standing its natural disadvantages and its poverty, to rise to a level with the highest an most civilised nations in the world.—(blear, hear.) In Ireland, again, the circumstances were exactly different. There the reli gion of the State was the religion of a small minority ; dissent from that religion was the distinguishing fea ture of the great majority in that country. Their religion was not recognised by the State, bat Periiatiient bad granted, year by year, considerable sums of private money, not in alliance with the Church, indeed, but still by this system Dissenters were admitted to partake of benefits in which Churchmen al,o parti cipated. It was, therefore, consistent both with the practice and policy of the case that the views of the Go vernment should vary with the varied circumstances of the United Kingdom. Aud now let them turn to Eng land. Here from an early period, unhappily to the latest period, to that very hour, the greatest differences had arisen on the subject of religion, and every class of the community had been bitterly divided on the subject of their religious faith. In that difference of opinion on religious matters had consisted the real difficulty of legislating on the subject of education. The State had encountered violent and uncalled-for interference both from the members of the Church and the supportere of different religious persuasions. Now he l'elt bound to say that in his own person he had some experience v. ith reference to the attempts of Ministers of the Crown to interfere ou this subject,—(Hear, hear, !led laughter,)—and he had never been eneblal to do as much far educet - on as his zeal would have led him to do. But he had dune this at all events; he had navigated the channel, he had sound, d all the depths, and he had marked the rocks and the shoals which were to be avoided by future Governments.—(Hear, hear.) If he lied done no more, be had at least done this ; he had shown the Government that succeeded, that which they ought to avoid if they wished to bring forward a measure calculated to extend the education of the people. He thought then, that it was indispensably necessary that the course which had been hitherto pursued should not be persevered in, namely, that an annual vote should be taken, and that from time to time rules and regulations should be determined upon in the deliberations of that House. Now, he did not think it altogether superfluous to point out hew occasional assistance ought to be administered with caution, by the State for the education of the people. Under the Government of Lord Grey, a small sum Ras asked for the aid of building school-houses. That small sum was, he believed, 20,0001, or 30,0001., to be disposed of under the inspection of the Government; but by other, and after regulations, the distribution of that sum was placed at the disposal of the Committee of Privy Council. Of course, under the circumstances, to which he had adverted, the difference of opinion in matters of religion rendered it cxeeedingly difficult to give any aid fur the purposes of religious and secular education; and, therefore, it was limited to the mere external fabric of the schools. Grants were subse • quently made to two institutions, the one the National Society, immediately connected with the Established Church, and the other, the British and Foreign Society, which had the confidence of a large portion of the Dis senting bodies. Until a recent period, in the year 1839, no aisistance was given, except for the single pur pose of bnildicg schools, and a further restriction was observed that the schools to be built must be con nected with one or other of those societies. The first relaxation of that rule took place when Lord Melbourne was at the head of the Government, but the order of Council of 1839 still maintained, as an indispensable con dition that these schools should be connected with one or other: of these two societies. The rule was also maintained that the assistarce of Government should only be given for the building of the fabric, except in special cases; these special cases were to be connected with one or other of these two societies. He was not aware that the Government of Lord Melbourne ever en tertained any more than two or three of these special eases, and they took care that in these cases the requirements should be rigorously executed. He thought that the first time assistance was given, to the amount of 5000/., for 1842, to two normal schools in connexion with the two societies, In the year 1843 an annual vote of 1,0001. per annum to the National School, and 7501. to the British and Fo reign Schools, was substituted in lieu of occasional grants, and annual contributions were also given in aid of the Normal Schools of Scotland. After this depar ture from the original rules, applications were pressed upon the Committee for annual contributions in aid of maintenance of the members connected with those Schools. When these cases were to be considered, he felt it his duty to state to the House, that these cases would be sure to be interrupted, and they would be in volved in such a discussion as they were now engaged in ; and they would find it necessary altogether to desist from allowing these grants. If it could be shown that the means of education were deficient, and that Parliament determined to give grants to one denomination, then he showed that on the same prin ciple they were bound to extend that provision to all persuasions.—(Hear, hear.) A time had now, however, come when they felt it necessary that some assistance should be afforded to the Dissenting bodies in the cause of education, and ho was greatly rejoiced that they should, at last, be allowed to receive that assistance which they so well merited by their exertions. But he was bound to say that if they admitted the principle, that assistance should be given to the Dissenting body, the Roman Catholics should also be allowed to parti cipate in the benefit. The only ground of exclusion which was alleged, was, that they did not use the authorised version of the Scriptures ; but what was the authorised version of the Roman Catholics ? It was the bible from which Bossett and Fentilon drew the texts from which they preached, and from which Pascal drew his immortal thoughts. Would it be told them that this version was to be the sole barrier against the admission of Roman Catholics to the benefits which the State had provided ? Surely Protestant zeal would not go so far as that. The Hon. Member for Southwark had referred to Mr. Landell, he (Sir T. Graham) had long had the honour of an intimate acquaintance with that gentle man, and he assured the House that his every word might be depended on implicitly. lie was of opinion that an effort should be made by the Government in order to ascertain whether terms could not be agreed on by which the Roman Catholics might be enabled to come in for some share of the benefits of Government assistance.—(Hear, hear.) He was bound to say that he could see something like expediency in not doing so on the present occasion, but he did not see any justice in doing so. (Cheers.) The present vote was not a vote of 100,000/. only, it was in addition to the sum authorised to be expended under the new minutes. By this vote, which might cause an outlay—. which he for one did not grudge—of not less than 1,000,000/.—some persons had sot it down at 2,000,0001. —now, ;out of all this sum the Catholics would not receive one shilling, and the whole subject was to be put off to an indefinite period, when the con sideration of the question would be brought forward by itself, and, he must say, invidiously.—(Cheers.) Ile thought that the proper time to do justice to his Roman Catholic fellow subjects was the present moment. He should not vote on the present occasion with the Hon. Member for Finsbury, because ho thought that the course taken by Government was justifiable and prudent with this single exception, however, that they ought to have allowed the Roman Catholics to participate in the vote.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it was infinitely better to proceed by order in Council in the present state of feeling in this country, than to attempt by Act of Parlia ment to establish any uniform system which would not he in accordance with the general wishes of the psople. The good, however, that might arise from the course pur sued by the Government, he would not purchase at the expense of what he thought was due to his Roman Ca tholic fellow subjects.--(llear, hear.) He must, there fore repeat that he entirely approved of the Government measure, with the single exception he had named, and he really thought it would be averse to all religious li berty and religious toleration if his Roman Catholic fel low subjects were to be excluded from participating in this plan. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Sir, I own after three nights' debate, I rise very considerably relieved of any apprehension I might hat'e entertained with respect to the course the discussion might have taken. The great objection stated to the front of this measure that rho e h3 ,o :We ought not to interfere with ree.ttvhaerioues:Qucation of the people, and the various t,ittiouns presented to this House on the subject, or at f p. :aeretds greate rot l rei t amh e r. e tt them ht o c• auto..nt ry were decl a declared red tha that o experiencel s a against wt h h i s s : conv that the State should not in : te rti r d f e e lle ; "ora w ut ;t hs h t the at sbe eeu3dlbualaldt downifromon f the people, or rather, I believe that the State ought not to educate the people. Well, Sir, what do I find when this measure comes under consideration ? When I in vited the attention of the House simply to discuss this subject, I find the Hon. Gentleman who moved the amendment, who was considered to be the Congrega tionalists, the Baptists, the Dissenters, and Anabaptists, has not in any part of his speech declared in favour of this principle, nor has he in any part of his speech de fended the grounds urged against the state's educating the people. I really thought that before he spoke I was to suffer under the same sort of indictment which the clerk of Chatham undergoes when he is brought before Jack Cade:—" Here is a fellow whom we have found who can read and write." Oh, the monster, we found him setting copies to a boy. Oh, the villein."—ellear, hear.) I really thought some such charge as that would have been made against us, but after three nights' debate, with the exception of the Hon. Member for Durham, every Hon. Member who has addressed the House has spoken in favour of educa tion by the State. The resolution sets forth that it is contrary to the duty of Parliament to provide State education—that this measure is calculated to increase the powers of the Crown —that it would undermine the constitutional functions of Parliament, and interfere with the religious rights of large masses of the people. Looking at the first part of that resolution, I can form no other opinion than it was intended to constitute a censure upon us who have introduced this measure. Yet some of those who mean to vote for the resolution, say they do so only, not because they wished to throw any blame upon the Government, but because they were anxious for inquiry. The Hon. Member for Durham has, however, declared himself strongly against the in terferenco of the House with the education of the people, and he declared at the end of his speech, in rather curi ous words, that certain consequences might follow the adoption of this resolution, to the House. That is the Honourable Gentleman's opinion, he argued it, as indeed he always does, with great force and power ; but I must protest against one part of his speech. The lion. Gentleman said that with regard to the Church schools we admitted an inspector, who was a clergyman, who inquired into the religious sects and the religious instruction of the pupils; that he had heard we intended to make the same inquiries with regard to Dissenting; schools ; but he was convinced no Governme n t dared interfere in that manner with Dissenting schools. Now what has there been in our conduct to induce him to make the imputation against us ? llave I not always taken my part along with others in bringing to au end the religious disabilities which fall upon different sects. The repeal of the 'rest and Corporation Acts we pro posed and succeeded in carrying • tsgainst the Govern ment, and-we did the same when in Government with regard to many Acts which conferred heavy disabilities upon Dissenters. I think certain sects were obliged to have their marriage solemnised in the Established Church, but they objected to the terms used in the Church ser vice, which was a hardship upon their consciences, and was carried through both douses of Parliament, a mea sure by which they were freed from such obligations, and they were allowed to conduct their marriages according to the obligations which they could conscien tiously undertake. Weat tight, then, has the Hon. Member for Durham to impute to us a wish to inter - fore with their religious feelings ?—(Hear, hear.) There was, however, another ground of oppo,ition which was taken with respect to this measure—taken litre, and taken also at the meetings held in the country. It was said at these meetings that the Government are pre pared to go so far that all distinction between truth and falsehood would be lost, and it was in point of fact repre ser ted that their principles were latitudinarian. Sir, that objection was taken to this measure, uni! it was evi dent at the time that there was preparing a very great opposition to this measure on the part. of the Dissenters, because it was understood that it would not embrace Roman Catholic echoed s. In their re solutions these opponents stated that they con sidered it a great hardship nod a great iejuThee, that Roman Catholic schools could now come within the terms of the present minutes. Thig eas a strong opposition coming from parties who t pposeil the May nooth grant. I find amongst those who vWed against that measure the name of the Hon. Member for Dur ham, and I cannot understand how the Hon. Gentleman can cemplain of an omission now which a short time ago he would have considered a grievous error.—(Hear, hear.) But, Sir, I come now to the statement of the lion. Baronet the Member for Suffolk. The Right lion. Baronet who last spoke entered into some further explanation of our conduct with regard to this matter. The Hon. Baronet the Member for Sutliele Las gone much into detail upon this subject, but ha omitted several important passages when he read from the correspondence which took place wi.h the Secretary of the Wcsleyans. I must state that that correspondence nas unsought by the Government, but was brought about by Lord Ashley. ( The Noble Lord then pro ceeded to read a passage from the correspondence, in which it was stated that the Council intended to take into consideration a minute for making grants to Roman Catholic schools, which would be brought forward in Parliament after the public had had sufficient time to examine its bearings.) Now, I say, continued the Noble Lord, that passage entirely frees us from the charge that we have been endeavouring to deceive the Wesleyans, by inducing them to believe that we had no idea of making grants to Roman Catholic schools. I think this passage entirely puts an end to the charge of the Hon. Member opposite, that for the sake of pleasing the Wesleyans th e Roman Catholic body was to be overthrown. Now, Sir, the observations of the Right Hon. Baronet who last addressed the House makes it necessary for me to recall, for some minutes, to the recollection of the House the occurrence of 1839. We proposed at the commencement of that year that there should be a model school, and with regard to Roman Catholic schools it was provided by the minute of the committee of council that the Douay version of the Bible might be introduced for their use. That part of the proposition excited great apprehension and alarm, and a strong opposition was gut up through out the country against it. Feeling that a very general resistance would be made to the plan, it was the opinion of the Government that the only course left them was the one pursued afterwards by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, namely, to withdraw the measure, seeing and feeling, as they did, that it was not likely to meet the approbation of the population of this country. Other minutes were then proposed, to which great ob jections were also made ; and the principal of these objections was, that the Government had not entirely given up the notion of, at some time or other, reviving those former minutes authorising the use of the Douay version in the schools, and, so far as I can remember, there was no person more strong in his opposition than the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Dorsetshire (Sir J. Graham). Upon that occasion the measure was car ' vied by a majority of only two. The large minority upon that occasion, it was supposed, did in a great de gree, represent the opinion of the country. A large portion of them were possessed of a dread of seeing the Roman Catholic schools established under such conditions. The impression upon my mind was, that however ami able it might be to extend aid to the Roman Catholic schools, that for some years to come we should have to make our choice between aiding all the other schools belonging to the church and to protestant dissenters, and not aiding the Roman Catholic schools, or of giving up all hope of assisting education altogether.—(Hear.) My conclusion, and the conclusion of those with e horn 1 acted, was that the better way was to go on giving what aid we could, by the adoption of which course great benefits might bo produced, although we could not say that we were satisfied with the terms with respect to the Reman Catholics.—(Laughter.) That which excluded the Roman Catholic schools was that they were to de rivp aid in connexion with the schools of the National Society, or those of the British and Foreign School Society. It was that regulation which shut out the Ro man Catholics in the years 1839,1840, and 1841, during which time the Whigs were in office ; and it also shut theca out from the years 1841 to 1846, in which period the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) was a member of the Government. If, then, the Right Hon. Baronet was of the same opinions then as he is now, that would have been the time to have impressed his opinions upon the minds of his colleagues.—(Cheers.) I think, Sir, that the Right Honourable Baronet had the ex cuse which we thought a valid one the ex cuse which we had in the years 1839, 1840,‘ and 1841 —that the opinion of the country was so strong upon those points that :the whole aid to education would be endangered by bringing in the subject of the Roman Catholic schools. I ate happy to hear the Right Hon. Baronet say, with respect to the authorised version, that the Vulgate used by Pascal and lenclon was good enough to be recommended by the Committee of Council. I do not know exactly what version was used by Pascal and Fenelon, but the Right Hon. Baronet must be aware that in Eaglish schools the Vulgate would be of little service.—(Laughter.) Was it desirable that the Govern ment should now add that element of conflict to that which they had already had to endure ? Had the Government revived the proposition of 1839 in favour of the Roman Catholic schools we should have been unable to carry the vote which we now propose.—(hear, hear.) I say that, in spite of the great liberality shown in the debate.--(Hear, hear.) A remarkable instance of the unwillingness of the House to give further aid to the Roman Catholics took place but a few days ago. A Bill was introduced by my Hon. Friend the Member for Kinsale (Mr. Watson) relieving the Roman Catholics from the penalties to which it appears to me so obvious that they should not be subjected to, that I do not know any Hon. Member can make a decent argument against the measure.—(Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tatnworth (Sir R. Peel) and the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord G. Bentinck) and the into o his whole o f t h e Members of the G over nment, voted in favour of i Bill was only carried by a majority of 3,'aud upon the Bill, e next stage of the Bill it was defeated by a majority f 38. If the G overnment pro f esse d that the rule made in the Committee second on reading eadttalige ftthe and notwith stand i ng 1819 should not be altered in 1846, if we have not time to deliberate upon future minutes to be made, it is not to be said that we have, especially upon this occasion, excluded the Roman Catholics from this grant. My opinion is that we should have failed if e e had attempted minutes, by the terms of which, when Parliamen e it now; but it is possible that we may be Catholics asked to grant, and to those schools, Roman Catholics is a poor may be included with others, and where of t this grant, — population, may also have the benefit has not able t t o is fr o ar x e t. (Hear, hear.) The Government we will not force Parliament to come to an con cealed their opinions upon the snbject g favourable immediate decision upon the subject, but we do take a Ivideow notof tahgereeeduw7.t.thionthoef Right we say t el ( ti s h i l r re j n . . e Catholics Graham), that there is a reason why the it should be included in the present vote. I tfarthe more likely to succeed if they were included think the Reuse and the country will agree I with the terms upon which such grants will be made.did not, next vote, or in another vote upon the subject. And I triliaoan .B Catholicaro the present debate; I thought that the rule which had Sir, expect that this would have bee n made a sub j ect of subsisted for many years, might at least have been per- I mated to go on for another year, without making it the subject of special comment and accusation.— (Hear, hear.) Now, that the Honourable Member for ' Southwark (Sir William Molesworth), spoke ably in avour of a general motion for a grant of money for education, and he wished to carry that motion for aid to the Roman Catholics as a part of this grant, I consider that the framing of any minutes upon this subject re quires great care and consideration. Should they be framed upon the ground of their being entirely Roman Catholic schools for teaching Roman Catholic doctrines, and having Roman Catholic inspection, I am sure if they were so drawn up, a great amount of opposition would be raised to tile measure. Should they be framed so as to afford education in the same manner as in the National Schools for Ireland, and aid granted to these schools in the same manner as granted to those schools? I am not quite sure that the Roman Catholic Bishops of this country would approve of a measure brought forward in that shape had it been proposed. lam sure that some Catholics in Ireland, do object to such a system, and have expressed great dissatisfaction with the State education provided for the Irish people. I therefore think, that on those grounds, it was necessary for us to postpone this question for further consideration, rather than to adopt a plan which might not have given setiefection. I agree with the Member for Yorkshire and others, that we could not regard any measure as permanent which did not include the Roman Catholics. This, however, was not proposed to be a permanent measure. In 1839, we introduced a great alteration, in the appointment of inspectors to the schools. The money hi d, up to that time. been voted by the Treasury, and in consequence of the want of any surveillance being exercised, a great deal of it was thrown away. This, however, was remedied by the change which was then introduced. We now propose to change the system as regards pupil monitors, and to im prove the condition of the schoolmasters, so that we can not be supposed to consider this as a permanent or com plete system. I trust that, in the end, we may be able to come to an arrangement by which we shall reconcile the various differences, and lay the foundation of a per manent system.—(llear, hear.) I trust that, seeing the general, I may almost say the universal, opinion that has been expressed as to the State providing the means o' education for the people, we shall be able to bring in a Bill that will have the support of the country, arid w bath Houses of Parliament. The opinions, however, which I have heard expressed, confirms me in the opinion I entertain as to the propriety of the course the Government have pursued on the present occasion. Had we brought in a measure, and asked for a much larger grant than now proposed, they would have put it out of the power of the other House of Parliament, when it came to consider it, to make any change in the measure. This was the course adopted in the case of the Maynooth grant. My own opinion is, that the state of education and of opinion is not sufficiently ripe for such a proceeding. When, however, the flight Hon. Gentleman opposite proposed the Bill, I supported bite on that occasion. Bat those questions cannot he dis posed of without consideration. They require delibe ration, ripening, and discussion, both in this House ane. the country before they can be brought to a satisfactore termination. I remember that with regard to the ques tion of the establishment of the Small lathes County i.,ourts Bill that measure was taken up time aft. r by successive Governments, and was introduced in 1824 'and 1825 ; it was not till 1846 that it was passed, and it was only last month it came into actual operation. When such difficulties, then, accompany the settlement of a question in which there are no prejudices at work, anti in which no great variety of opinion eat exist, it is no; too much to expect that on a question of this nature, it which men's feelings are so deeply interested, and which involves such diversity of opinions, that there should b, some delay in arriving at a satisfactory arrangement. I think the course we have anopted has tended to bring out many opinions that will assist in eff:eting this arrange ment, and has shown that this House is not unfavour able to the extension of education; and with regard to many points on which condelerable doubt and difficult) rested, this debate has enabled us to arrive at something like a clear and satisfactory decision. For instance, with regard to the proposition of the lion. Gentleman th. Member for I3ath, that we should provide an education for the people entirely secular, it is so entirely against the opinions of this, and we may predict a future Par liament, that the chance of success trom such a measun is no longer questionable; and I do not think that the future Ministers who are to be the successors of the present Government, and to exceed them in liberality, are likely to have a long tenure of power, it schools entirely secular are to be established by the State.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the other points, there has been so much unanimity expressed, and so much support—handsome and generous support—given to the proposition of the Government by the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool, the Member for Hertford, and others, that I will only conclude by thanking them and the House for the reception that has been given to this pro posal, and I trust we shall not he disappointed in the hopes we have formed of it.—(The Noble Lord resumed his seat amid loud cheers.) Colonel SIBTHORP said that when he recollected how he had been deceived by former Governments en questions of re ligion, he was cautious in placing much confidence in any Government. The Noble Lord said this was not to be a permanent measure—he thought so too. He thought this was like other measures which had been lately brought before them, and the experience of the past induced him to be very careful in assenting to what he could not but consider as a snare and a trap, to cover some u:terior design.— Ho (La ughter.) . ' to e r eo D a p r i t e a o e sp e r t f e n ed, as f t a e r s ..."— ( h L e a y u i tt . e o r ) . l ? , could be, but be c e ertainly would not agree to any further grants ; and if the Hon. Member would 4move the repeal of the Act of 1839, he would cheerfully second the motion. Sir ROBERT PEEL—Sir, although I feel it wholly un necessary to add anything to the argument by which the motion of the Noble Lord has been supported, yet I should be unwilling to permit this House to proceed to a division, without shortly stating the grounds upon which my concurrence will be given to that motion. Considering the position which for five years I held in the councils of the Crown—considering the con nexion I had with the appropriation of the educational vote, during that period as a Member of the Committee of the Council—considering theopposition which the Government has ' had to encounter in proposing the measure, the main outline and principles of which I cordially approve of, I think on account of that opposition it is incumbent upon me not •to shrink from taking my full share in any unpopularity which may attach to the support of this measure.—( Hear, hear. ) Sir, I am:perfectly willing to admit that there are considerations connected with this measure which I think are deserving of mature attention. In 1839, I fully shared in the objections that were urged to proceeding by a single vote of this House in reference to a matter of so great importance as a scheme of general education, imperfect though I admit it to have been. I still think those assertions were based upon a sound:foundation, as I consider it would have been a great advantage to adhere to the ordinary course of submitting to the deliberate judgment of the House the regulations by which the education of the people is proposed to be carried out.— ( Hear.) I think it is an evil to exclude the House of Lords from an opportunity of a full consideration of this subject— (Cheers)—of leaving to the House no alternative but a com • plete acquiescence or a peremptory rejection of the measure.— ( Hear.) But, Sir, with my view of the immense importance of making some progress in the mitigation of the monstrous evils which attend a neglect of public instruction—(Hear)— forseeing the probable consequences of insisting on the opinion which I - gave in 1839 of refusing assent to any measure con nected with education, unless it had the Legislative sanction of both Houses of Parliament in the shape of an Act of Parliament. I will not now incur the risk of fur ther delay, by insisting on the objections which I urged in 1839. I feel that I could not, with propriety now insist upon those objections. For the six years which have elapsed since 1639, there has not only been an acquiescence on my part, but an acquiescence on the part of the House, in placing the control of the grants in the hands of the Privy Cot:med.— ( Hear.) In 1842, when the late Government assumed power, the vote to the Privy Council did not exceed 30,000/. it was by the advice of the Crown that that vote was increased to 75,000!. and then to 100,00J1, per annum. We, charged with the responsibility of the Government, and basing the support of a great majority of this House, did not think that Parliament would have acquiesced in 1840 and 1841, after the debate of 1839, and after a majority of the House had declared their opinion in favour of tho proceed ings by vote, seeing that Parliament thought that arrange, ment had been made between Government and the heads of the Church, and that in 1840 and 1811 there was no disposition to resew the discussion of 1839; I say, considering these things, ' and the increase of the vote, by the advice of the Crown to Parliament, from 30,0001. to 100,000/. and more, without re quiring any alteration in the channel through which it was ad ministered, I think I should be utterly unworthy if I now, in 1847, attempted to throw any impediment in the way which might obstruct the application, and in some respects imperfect . remedy, for an evil of which we ought to be fully impressed, by proposing that we should proceed by Bill rather than by a vote of the House. But has nothing occurred since 1842? Have we not had an attempt to proceed by Bill with reference to the education of the people ?—( Hear.) And what was the result ? When my Right Hon. Friend the late Secretary of State for the Home Department attempted to introduce a mea sure with respect to the education of factory children, and in curred the obloquy with which he was assailed—obloquy to which he exposed himself, because he was actuated by a deep sense of public duty—he considered that he should mitigate the opposition that existed by proceeding by a legislative ose enact ment. lie did not proceed by vote. nor did he p p Council, to place any authority in the to the education of the people, but we met the Noble Lord in en couragement in respect to that Bill than of Commons, and proceeding by a vote of the House compelled to abandon We made an attempt to introduce further fa w el i f t i h t v i i e n v il y o w g i r th ea r te es r pect my Right Honourable Friend attempt, because it was mad e which, without impolitic con cessions,parties desiring some scheme, b y h be given to the education of the great facilities ;nig 7 q seeing the failure of attempting people. Now then, 4 'the evidence that there is, the project ; and I regret that_eit wwwaiatshanetcheessvaireywtooafbaunoditoinogthealtl to proceed by legislation, seeing with 100,0001 ., no su ffi cient, no adequate pro visioneven or the education of the people —moral, intel lectual, and religious, I am ready to consent to any t ff i o n r g d s t h s e mn C e oll° r C e i m e O y lp fo s r Cr t u h p o l w c i h tb ri o s u t i t a n v s i , ol viola ting the conscientio%s scrupl es of any clas s of Chris tians, a measure,se monstrou which, evils which exist from the want of education.— (Cheers.) Sir, in the course of this debate, there has been much able argument with respect to the authority and duty of the State to interfere with the education of the.people. of any clas s of Sir, in the course of the debate, certainly there has been but faint denial of that—(Hear, hear .and I should apprehend that on tic ) vooentr l ef no education, eu p incn r ta e g, t h iib e os o n n yot : t h h aas a nt : the part of that great ody otTer Majesty's subjects who dissent from the doctrines of the Established Chnrch, there is no dis position to deny the importance of education, or to deny the eesp part sirnbt that eot i t tnf s edr h. p ee o ar %el That aaa . right and duty of the State to promote that education the chief objection of the Non-conforming body to this pro much a denial of the right of the State to promote education, i e b a ele e d d e i v n t e g o r p y pr o ri n m no me t e i h a po e n it e e ts d h(tyel o ' sisle p a r oGr o : as a doubt whether or no the measure proposed is really calcu least, if they are consistent with their doctrines on the subject —( Hear, hear)—only object to it on the ground that the vo luntaryany interference on the part of the State. And, Sir, if I could believe that assumption—if I could believe that non-interference on the part of the State was calculated to facilitate education more than such interference, I should at once admit, that in this country, in which such difference of opinion in religious subjects prevails-1 should,- I repeat, at once admit that, whatever r&ght be the right of the Sate, it was not desirable that any such interference should take place.—( Hear.) But! think the evidence is conclusive that the voluntaryprieciple has failed to mitigate the evils which arise from a want of educe- tion.--(Cheers.) Sir, I believe, if we could know the real extent of this evil—if we could have presented to us a full account of all the c r i me w hi c h h as b een genera t e d b y igno rance—if we could know what really has taken place within the last fifty ye irs—if we could know how much evil the ex ample of the parent has introduced—how his example has in troduced infection into the character of his children—if we could know how much o f v i o l ence , h ow muc h o f rap i ne an d crime against life and property have been caused by a dearth of education —if we could know how many souls have been intro duced into the presence of their Creator and Judge, ignorant of the character, use, and principles of Christianity—l think we should be disposed to shudder at our neglect, and to repair, without .. delay, th e ev il s o f past l eg i slat i on.—(Loud cheers. ) Sir, I look to the volume of evidence which has been pre sented for the last few years. I hold in my hand one of those volumes, the reports of the Commissioners who were ap pointed to inquire into the st a t e o f e d ucat i on o f t h e c hild ren employed in the several mining di s t r i c t s o f t h e ki ng d om . A single report refers to the education of the children in Flint shire and Denbighshire, Lancaster, Staffordshire, Durham, North Wales, and South Wales. The evidence had been collected from men of the highest acquirements, and of the most superior attaintainmente, and they uniformly come to the same conclusion, that there was complete degradation in many parts of the country, on account of the neglect of education. I believe that we are little aware of the extent to which ignorance prevails.— ( Hear, hear.) We see returns of the number of children educated, but we rarely inquire what is the real state of the question. We may be told that there are from about four or five hundred thousand children, of whom three hundred thousand are educated, and two hundred thou. sand are not. This is a sufficiently painful reflection. But if we are really acquainted with the education which the three hundred thimsand receive, our reflections :could be still more painful. I have not come to a conclusion on this subject without having maturely weighed the amount of evidence on both sides of tha question, and although I keow that any re lerciiee to these documents i 3 not very palatable to the House, yet they are far more important than any speculative arguments which I could adduce. I will take an important case with respect to Oldham, in Lancaster, and I find in the evidence of the curate of the church of St. James's, in Oldham, this testimony, which he gives in reference to the state of the educated classes in the district. And now, considering whether it be safe to trust to the voluntary principle for the education of the poor, and for the arguments of these who say that the rule of the State ought to be non interference. Let us listen to what this gen tleman says, speaking of the district of St. James :—" There is in this district no public day-school whatever; I have made several attempts to establish one. I have even sought assistance from the National Society. A good building has been erected, and two smaller ones—one for infants, and another fur more advanced scholars. An attendance of scholars can be got, but no money to pay a master. This state of things has been endured four years—three masters have successively tried to maintain a school here, bat without avail." Now, here was a district which up to the present hour contained no pub is day-school whatever, it was quite true that there were Sunday schools. The parents had no objections to these as they did not inter fere with the working of the children, and because the chil dren attending these schools were returned as educated. But what is the opinion of this gentleman on this education? He says—" It is obvious that schools composed thus must be imperfect in the extreme — as schools they do harm, by lowering the opinion of the people of the value of secular instruction, and teaching them to be satisfied with a quantity with which they ought not." 'I hey had no day schools, none of the habits engendered in schools ; end the clergyman thinks mere attendance, without any prepara tion for it, does more harm than good ; and yet those are the persons who are returned as educated. They had it in evi dence that these Sunday schools were an imperfect instrument for education ; that they did more harm than good, and that for secular education they were worse than useless. The evidence of the boys themselves was worth attention. One of them, fifteen years of age, says, " I have been at a Sunday school for five or six years and I have not learnt to read more than my letters." He went to a Sunday•school for five or six years, and he (lid not know how to read his own language—he did not know how to read or write. A day school could not be established; those parties who would send their children to them were not willing to pay for them. Is not this a proof that the voluntary principle could o re. be relied upon ?—( hear, hear.) What was now proposed ? 'ro elevate the character of the schoolmaster; to exalt his position in the scale of society, and to give him encouragement to advance himself. As to the patronage gained by the Go vernment, it was an objection so futile that ft ought not to have been advanced in the House.—( Hear, hear.) But the most important tendency of the measure was to raise the character of the schoolmaster. At present, as soon as they had a competent schoolmaster, as soon as he had proved him self capable to discharge the duties of such an office, tempta tions were held out to him to leave his situation, and to enter other employments, which would lead to snore certain pro motion. How then can you succeed, unless you teach him that the office is an honourable one, and unless you hold out to him some prospect that when he will be incapacitated, that the State will not neglect him, but re ward him for his faithful services. Sir, that part of these minutes, which has a tendency to improve the condition of the schoolmaster is one to which I give my hearty concurrence.— ( Ilear, hear.) I regret the opposition of the Nonconformist bodies to this measure, I have shown my attachment to the Dissenters on many occasions. I have supported many Bills which had their relief for an object: and, notwithstanding, my attachment for the Established Church of this country, I should be sorry to gain any covert advantage at the expense of another church—and, if I thought it unjust to the Dissenters I would not support it—it is impossible to forget the services which they had rendered to education, even when the English Church had neglected it.—( Hear.) It is impossible to forget the services and the example shown by the Non-conformist. But having considered the objections of the Dissenting body, Ido not believe they are founded in justice. I think that the principle of the aid proposed to be given is perfectly . fair, and that these minutes in fact adopt the voluntary ( Hear, hear .) This is no Sate interference in the ordi nary sense. The minutes can only be set in force through the interference of the voluntary principle. is Volun tary provision for the salary of the schoolmaster essential before the aid of the State can be obtained, and it is open to the Dissenter to take advantage of it as well as to the mem bers of the Established Church. The Dissenters who now complain of the partiality and injustice of these minutes ought to recollect what would have been the opposition they would have met with on the part of the Established Church if they had been proposed ten years since. —(Hear.) Being then deeply impressed with the impartiality, and the perfect equality of these minutes towards the Dissenters, I cannot but give them my support. The Church are not seeking any direct advantage in consequence of these minutes. It is said the Church receives some eighteen-twentieths of that aid at this moment. Do they receive it on account of the superior numbers of the members of the Establishment ? If they do, can it be more justly given ? If it it not on account of their numbers, but en account of their zeal and liberality in the cause of education, do not that superior zeal and liberality also constitute a claim to increased assistance? Try it on what principle you will, you can urge no objection to this mode on account of the supposed advantage which will be gained by the Church. There is no denying that the Church is.powerful, and I rejoice that it is so.—( Hear, hear.) I think that the power of the Church is increasing; and why is it in creasing? My firm belief is that the power of the Church is increasing from its hold over the affections of the people of this country. It is becoming strengthened because it is becoming more awakened to the amount of duty it has to perform. My firm belief is that the Church has acquired a hold, an increased hold, on the respect and veneration of the people of this country by its willingness to make a timely and salutary reform, and by its readiness to consent to a reduction of the superfluous emolu • rents of the higher orders of the Church dignitaries, in order to devote those emoluments to afford increased accommodation and means to the spiritual charge of the people by its superior members. It is my opinion that the conduct of the Church in that respect has greatly increased its power—and it is a legi timate source of power. It is not the Government grants that are giving the Church an increased influence. That is a com plete mistake; the Church would be just as powerful without this aid. In what way does that aid increase the power of the Church in any district where the Church population is more numerous than any other sect? It is the Church's power over the affections of the people. I say it not invidiously with re gard to the Dissenters, because I give to the Dissenters the full credit which is due to them—they are actuated . by the same spirit, of which all religious opinions are beginning to perceive the necessity. The influence of the Church has bee n increased by the conduct of the ( hurch, and it will continue to 12 so. Give or withhold this pecuniary aid by the Government Tis the Church, and its legitimate sources of influence over i the popu lation will not be diminished ; and I re j oice that it s so, as the princip • le is one of fairness. On these gro unds I shall give my support to the motion of the Noble Lord, and shall not vote for the motion or amendment o f the Hon. Member. I think that we have had abundant time. I think that the facts are well be fore us, if we will but resort to the evidence of which we are in possession. The institutions of this country are not capacious enough, as they at present exist, to provide for the education of the countless millions which are engaged in varied pursuits. Sir, iu the course of this discussion, a question of greatim portance has arisen with regard to the condition of other sub jects of her Majesty other than those who are members of the Established Church, or those whom we usually call Dissenters —I speak of the Roman Cathulics. Sir, lam of opinion that no system of general education, even in England would be ad mitted as a conclusive, or comprehensive one, which excluded the Roman Catholics from its operation.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord says there is no alteration in the principle of the minute of 1839. In that respect I beg to differ from my No. ble Friend; I think we are about—practically at least—to make a difference, a material difference, in the principle upon which we have begun these minutes. You are aboist to admit to the participation of the advantages of this grant the members of the dissenting body, which certainly has hitherto been ex. eluded. Hitherto the Wesleyan body—practically at l east—has not bad any participation in this vote. They were not in connexion with the British and- Foreign School Society, and therefore that rule which excluded from participation in the advantage of the Parliamentary vote, any s ociety not in connexion with the National Society, or the British and Foreign Schools Society—excluded the Wesleyans from any pecuniary advantage from it. You are about to alter the principle of these minutes in that respect. You have given an assurance to the Wesleyans, that this rule, which has hitherto prevailed, shall not be obligatory—and that these schools, whether or not in connexion with either of the parent societies , s hall be entitled to aid, and that authorities of the Wesleyan body shall be consulted in respect of the inspection of these schools. Se far as the position of the Roman Catholic is concerned, what is the material difference? There is a material difference in point of principle as well as of advantage. You a re go i ng to widen and spread over with the public bounty an unusual space, and the more wide that space is the more marked will be the exclusion.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore I think that the time has come—and I am the more anxious to avow m y op i n i on, as an an avowal of opinion in this respect may be unpopular— ( Hear , hear)—the time has come wh en j ust i ce and good policy call from you a mature consideration of the position of the Roman Catholic. Take the case now of the Roman Catholics of Manchester and of Liverpool, or in many other places. N ow l e t us d e l i b erate upon this question with out insisting upo n th e a l terat i on of the minute— or inquiring into the meaning of parti cu l ar t erms, or w h ether the word " Scripture," is meant to signify "authorised version," or whether the Roman Catholics are excluded from this grant in consequence of their not being in connexion either with the National Society or w i t h the British and Foreign School Society—let us neglect these, and instead of them, see that we are about to adopt—l will not say—a permanent system, but an extended system, on which we are about to act, and let us consider whether or no we can exclude on any ground or pretence, if we can continue the exclusion, of the Roman Catholics; it would perhaps be expedient as my Hon. Friend said, to postpone the consideration of the question for some months, but lam not bound or inclined upon th a t account to force or precipitate the adoption of any . measure, and I will admit that it requires some consideration ; but I am not disposed that there shall be any d ou bt as to t h e opinion which I entertain.—( Loud cheers.) Let us take the population of Manchester. There is a particular district in Manchester called " Irish Town," so great is the number of that people residing there, and I am told that there are not less th i an sixty thousand or seventy t h ousand Irish peopleinhabiting t. They are a class of peop!e that come over there, and who, speaking generally, are distinguished by their industry and good conduct. They come over to the wealthy manufactures of Manchester, to live there and give the advantage of their labour. They have no natural pro tectors—there were no wealthy Roman Catholic. connected with Manchester to have regard to their spiritual conscseerns.. And of that body there is no one there probably who po etea,, the means of superintending the education of 60,000 of the inhabitants of the poorer classes. How is that educati to be provided for them ? The priests no doubt would attend. or 70, 1 7 to them, but I apprehend that the means of the priest to p a re? . vide a system of education are most limited. Is it to the vantage of the State that the children of 60,000 or 70.07 . should he brought up in ignorance? I confess t hat I cannot oo s calve a more urgent case; and not onl, so far as the lut a it o advantage of the Roman Catholics is concerne d ; but if are, only for the truth of the prnciple you have brought forv tio : against barbarism, or on account of the crime and deg that of character which is caused by ignorance—if it be for. ; principle which you hare all agreed to, in nelv ery . ought not to be brought up and ignorance, which could only lead to tr' , e .s As a question of policy and justice, I maintain that you ougu . to make some provision for the education of the rising toys,, those chiT ration. The schools of the Roman Catholics, in large toetirSs at present, are very imperfectly supported, and, therefore, .ot7 important that ti-sir case should be taken into considerati It was more likely that such a course—the granting sums money to maintain their schools—would soften their feelinegbe; and reconcile them to the truths of Protestantism , th a acting in an intolerant anti exclusive spirit.—(fle ar,be!r• This was a much more advisable course than to leave themeinsieng. generation in a state cf perpetual ignorance. MY fi 1- • r g suasion is that considerable advantage will result by arrane . that the children of all shall have the benefit of a che eculaie cation. On this head I must state, that I listened tetchy speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Home Set-r with the greatest satisfaction—a spi ech which holds out grte.e hapes of a settlement of the question in a manner to meet wishes which the House has expressed. I know that tbegllFl Lion is most difficult, and I think that it is wise to proceed et!,'". caution ; still I think that some means should be taken.r. providing for the edneasion of tf e children of Roman Can I cc. I think there is a prospect of passing this measure, 1101 ' understand, from a declaration of the Government that ere ° I % rely upon an early consideration of the claims of the Rcu l t e Ca holies. That bring the case I shall not be irolined to Vtk, the risk of urging, at this time, the Government at on ce to prli pose a scheme of Roman Catholic education. I3utl 'l°_,C,Sat upon them not to accept the support of any body t o the rt.-se confine d minutes, holding it as a principle that the Roma n are to be excluded. There ought to be no exclusion. — L ou is cheers.) If there is 'll_, prabability of an early electi(°l/',.. may be important that there should be no misunderstandiugs ( Loud cheers.) If the Government recognis e the prieelt which I understand them to recognise, and fairly ev'w recognition, then they give fair notice to all p arties, tof , although there may be some delay in the preparation additional minutes, yet the principle is recoginaed that must not take one class of Christians and of her Ps' jesty's subjects, and deem them to perpetual ignor e ne t upon account of their religious opinions. I would ear ° men of all religious denominations to consider *bat has been the cause of delay in the promotion of educatioth It has arisen originally from a belief that instruction 09 dangerous to the institutions of the country. That imprees i , °s passed away, it was succeeded by great indifference,--at nifference from which the Dissenting body was the fiat - be awakened, and set the example of activity in the cau se ;, education. They were followed by others, and there of late years been great activity and great zeal exhibin We are all admitting the importance of education, but are preventing its progress because they are afraid that 1 0 : other body would interfere with their religious olli p , l lb r e Thus, Dissenters object one day that the educatio n Church does not recognise the claims of Dissenters. `, l Church again objects that the Dissenters do not recogn i ' e iN d a claims. Whilst this is going on, what is becoming of the children born every day, of the 300,000 added yearly to ouro population ? Whilst we are fighting and Squabbling 6,Fi°eb there points of difference, we are neglecting that wu si , ought in all Christian lands to be a subject o deep c °° .c a deration, viz., the enlightenment of the people in Chr is " l e principles—the improvement of their intellectual cult'!';!' and their instruction in secular knowledge. I believe true charity, true policy, and true regard for religion truth, ought to encourage us to lay aside our diff erences'd A tO to contemplate the magnitude of the present evil, teach the children of all sects the great truths of `l"s-0.. tianity.---(Cheers.) lam for a religious educ.ation,,,l;ern posed to a secular education.—( Hear, hear.) . 1 ea the difficulties of the ease. Yet still I think that s ome arravg ht ment should be made by which the children of all sects usig be made to participate in the benefits of the Goveruneoli grant. Ido not believe that a purely secular education et, ' l 4O be acceptable to the people of this country, but I, nt believe a religious one to be at the least as issporsea„ as secular education; and I believe it to be for the inoterthal of the country. I believe it to be for the interests, I , v et Protestant rel:gien which shrinks not from the light, 0 ;;0 rejoices in the spread of knowledge, that the peoPle neca not be left in a state of ignorance; but, by receiving inte tiorl tual culture, their minds should be prepared for thereecep 1 1 0 sn . of those great truths which, in the first instan ce, is th . dation of all religion, and more especial l y of that religion which relies more than any other on self-judgment en'. I lectual culture, which cours inqry, and is therefore the 0 , 05 more likely to recommend t itself ui to a wisa , and re° people.—( Loud and conued cheeri). • eon- Mr. PLUMPTRE w ti as n ng anxious to say a few words , in sequence of the debate that evening. Wherein did the re a , culty consist? Was it that the peop le of England 'O ignorant people ? No ; but they were a Protestant people.: and therefore it was that there were ob j ections to the prop .al tions which were made by the Government. The prop o. t might be expediency, but it was not Christianity. .The peort ° either side. placed no dependence on their leaders on of the House, and be thooodugahntdthfaatitthhfeuyi would at representatives, would opportunity, choo se g , wou ld truly consu lt their religious feelings and act upon theta. Mr. NEWDEGATE, who ruse amidst the utmost cone fusion, was understood to ask Lord John Russell whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to submit the future minutes of the council, with respect to the admission of Catholics to a part i c i p ation in th e grants of the Government, to the House? Lord J RUSSELL—Of course, on future minutes be roos t ask the opinion of Parliament. The House then divided, whets there appeared — For the grant... ...... „. 372 Against it ....................................... 47 Majority for th e G overn ment ......... 3 ? 5 QUAKERS' AND JEWS' MARRIAGE BILL. This Bill ain went through Committee. The remaining orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at One o'clock RAILWAY SHAREMARgETS• LIVERPOOL, APRIL 22. Notting" • STOCK EXCHANGE.-The sales are -Amhergate, keabea d, ham, Boston, and Eastern Junction, 3 / 4 ni and Lancashire, and Cheshire Junction, 3 / 4 dia.-Binning, Oxford Junction, 8% .--Chester and Birkenhead, p a r i l l East Lancashire, New (scrip), % p. -Edinburgh d L o ndon g0w,72-Liverpool, Crosby, and ,Southport,„jar, and North-Western, 172 1 A-Ditto, Quarters, la7B New Quarters, 10 p.-London and Manchester andsl-11.1.nce,„ ham, Quarters (A), 5% p.-Manchester and Leed n jo . 8 1 / 2 p.-Ditto, 32/. Shares (late Extension), 1 % r' _man cheater, Sheffield, and Lincelnshire, Quarters, cheater and Southampton, y a Shares, 3% p.-Ditto, New, 2% p.-North Staffords Sixths , p.-North- Western, 335. 9d. dis.-Preston and Wyre r and 51 -Shrewsbury and Hereford, I I A dis.-Shrewsb v , dis.-Midland, 11146-d-Litto,4o/. Chester, (late N. W. M.), 5 1 % p.-Ditto, New, 11 - _york Eastern and Dover, No. 2, % p.-Ditto, No. 4, and Newcastle, Preference, 31% p.-East Indian, ls MANCHESTER, Aram 22. STOCK EXCHANGE.-The sales are-Birkenhead, shire, and Cheshire Junction, :m -East Lannscrip), and P.), par-Ditto, New, par-Ditto, New. 13-16. -Great Fleetwood, Preston, and West Biding Junction, an d Northern, : 1 -Iladderstield and Manchester -R Canal, 1% c.-Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle tion, 1 % 2 -Manchester and Leeds, 32/ Shares (late sion), 1 1 4-Ditto, Fifths (late West Riding Union), 2, La t f o c.: -Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire, Quarters, 21 1 %-Ditto (Sheffield and Lincolnshire) , 2 11- 1 6 cheater and Ol Southampton,2- 19s. 6erth Stafford I o n' , tern and Dover, No. 4 , 1-16 shire Union, Ir?ii-South-Eas 2 1-16-North-Wcstern , dham Alliance, M-Sbr P South Yorkshire, Donc aster, and Goole, A c. LEEDS, APRIL 22. STOCK EXCHANGE.-The sales are-Ambergate, Notting ham, and Boston, 16s. dis.-East Lancashire, New, is. 3d. P. -Ditto, New Scrip, 6s. p.-East and West Yorkshire, Ird 6d. dis.-H u ddersfield and Manchester, 7s. 6d. p.-Leeds a Dowsbury, New Extensions, Scrip (pink), Is. dis.-Leeda and Thirsk, 4 dis.-Ditto, New. 2 1 / 2 dis.-Ditto, Preferenc e, [ls. p. -London, Oxford, and Cheltenham, 15s. dis.- 1112 " - cheater and Leeds, Fifths, 4 8 p.-Ditto, 32/. Shares (late Extensons), 18s. 6d. - 11 te, West Riding Union , 11 , s ; p.-Midland, Preference, 2 1 / s p.-North British, Halves, 274 p.-Ditto, Thirds, 40s. p.-Ditto, Quarters (late Carlisle Et i le t .l t r, o 3ni i , ;;3l:67,ds Extension ..Dpd :_ N 0 r ( i s h c e r r i u p ), 10. Counties 6 d u . n p i La . 2 N I ' t i d l e r i b s SLt ' a NtirolAurrdtahhp:i -Ditto, j A S. PRIL 22. STOCK EXCHANGE.-The sales are Ambergate, Notting ham, and Boston, 15s. dip.-Manchester, Sheffield, anolLiw• colnshire (Grimsby and Sheffield), 6% dis.-Ditto , 201. Shares, 2 1 / 2 dis.-Ditto, 12!, 10s. Shares, 355. di W es Riding Union, 14s. p. NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE, Anat. 22. STOCK EXCHANGE.-The sales are-Eastern Counties, York Extensions, 14 dis.-Fleetwood, Preston, and West Riding, 15s. dis.-Manchester, Great Grit - nab)", and Sheffield, 6 j 8 dis.-Ditto, Extension, 48s. dis.-Newcastle and Carlisle, 11114-Newcastle and Berwick, New, 2 7-16 tish, Thirds, 425.-Ditto, Quarters, 1 1 4 p.-West Union, 15s. p. EDINBURGH, Arm'. 21. STOCK Excnexcir.. , -The sales are-Caledonian, New , .13s. &I-Dundee and Perth, New, 19 1 A-East Lothian Cen tral, 525. 6c1.-EdiphuriCh - and Bathgate, 71. Is.-Edinburgh , Leith, and Granton, Quarters, 13s. 3(1:-Edinburgh and Northern, New, 725.-Ditto, Newport, 71. 65.-Edinburgh and Perth, 535.- Ditto, Halves, 195.-Great Northern, 62a. 6d.-North British, 32 1 4-Ditto, Quarters, 695. 6t1.-Ditto , a Now,snedot Scottish Madras, Central, a6sd, .3_s_s t 2 iE 5 O l / 44lislAitg Isi S naG, 25%-Shrewsbury, Oi r eda e l inwyl3eb 35.-Great New Quarters (scrip), 235. 6d.-Ditto, Thirds,- 61s. Midland,C)r 455. -Direct t C inn li do T ua l: b i as r s. ; STOCK EXCHAN G GE L . are-East 2l. Indian, 39- East Lothian Central, 51s. 61. -Edinburgh and Glnag °W, Halves. 19/.-Edinburgh and Perth (New Co.), 548. ,j 6 ,-, d c, Glasgow, Kilmarn o ck, an d Ayr, 58 1 / 2 -Ditto Halves, 634-Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle, 5 1 / 2 Great Sou thern of Madras, Is. 6d.-Kilmarnock and Carlisle, 5t 313.-L°ll - and Brighton, 52 1 4-Madras, Nellore, and Arcot, la.; Manchester and Southampton, Vs. 6d.-Midland, gah• l l 4-North British, New Quarters (scrip), 23 '' - ' " ttish Central, 25 1 4-York and Newcastle, 33 1 / 2 BIRTHS On the 22d inst., the wife of G. Robins, Egi' , su rgeon, of Boifoid-street, Covent-garden, of a daughter. of the 17th inst., at Gloucester, the laity of Lieutenant' Colonel 11. R. Osborn, of the Bengal Army, of a d.aughter. On the 18th inst., at Wavertree, near Liverpool, Mrs' Laker, of a son. MARRIED. Oa the 22d inst., at Axbridge, Somerset, by the Rev. Ge• G. Beadon, the Rector, Herbert Adolphus Wed, Rig. , Walworth, London, to Maria Harriet Vesie, youngest dau4ll - of Robert Park., of the former place. On the 7th inst., er, theat British Embassy, St. Petersburg'', Henry Bruxner, Esq., to Emily Georgiaua , s econd daughter of Robert Cattley, Esq. On the 21st inst., Edward Gardner, Esq., to Hester, t hird daughter of the late Mr. G. Harrison, 1381)"er. DIED. On the 16th inst. , John Leech, Es q , of Lea, Surrey , a g ed 86. On the lath just, in New-road, Gower- street Nort h, Amelia Mary, youngest daughter of Captain J. Cbiosso. On the 19th inst., at Rottingdean, near Brighton, 31i" Margaret Parry Thomas. On the 19th inst., in Cavendish-square, Harriett Jane Christine, youngest daughter of Sir James Hawking Whit shed, Bart., Admiral of the Fleet. 01 the 19th inst., Louisa Elizabeth, the wire of John An drews, Esq., Lowlon: Printed =na l'unitsite.t by A. u.anu titrand, Printer, :•tt 2718 No. t 12, tit' and, iv the mole." of the Savoy, In the County 'el Middlesex, Irmo; A 2" 1847.