The Sun. — London, England, 1806-07-12 00:00:00

PARLUMENT HOUSE OF PEERS. FRIDAY, JULY 11 IN the Appeal " Rennie v. Tod and, Others: Mr. Horner was heard for the•lespondeut, and the. Lord Advocate of 'Scotland in, reply. The further Coll3i defatibn Of the Appeal was deferred till Monday. • Mr. BANKES, and sever,al . .9ther Metnbers of the House of Commons, brought up a Messte, desiring a conference on the suhjea chatter of the last con- ference. - ' ' - ' • • . On' the Motion of Lord WA LSISG4T AM, the Lords agreed to a conference .on Monday,: at five o'clock, in the Painted Chamber; on which the Messengers were called in and infoi - med. _ , .• : ~.•. Sir J. SINCLAIA, Lord W. RUSSELL, LYGON, Mr. ,ASHLEY, and several other Members of the HoUse of Commons, brought up Sir . John Gor don's ,Divorce ,Bill ; also the Vote of Credit Bill, the Newfoundland Fishery the Bank rupt Laws Bill, and, some private Bilis ; which were read a first time. The Bankrupt Laws Bill was or dered to be printed. The — Greenwich Chest Bill, and the Greenwich J-lospital Bill, were read a second time, and com mitted for to-morrow. On the second reading of the Irish School Com missioners' Bill, . Lord ItEntsnAtn made a - few observations on the Clauses of the Bill, for the purpose-of shewing the necessity of amending them in the Committee. The Bill was conni‘te-d for Tuesday. Mr. HonHoust, and several 'other Members of the! House Of Commons, brought up a - Message, stating, that. Sir Jphn Gbrdon's Divorce Bill had been sent tip by Mistake, add requesting to have it re- turnecl: - , • On the MOtion . of Lord WALSINGHAM, the ,Bill was ordered to be returned; and+the Messengers be ing called in, they Bill was delivered by the Clerk to Mr. FloßtiousE. . Sir SOHN NEWPORT, Mr. ALEIcANDER, and se veral other. Members of the House of Commons, brought up the Grain Interchange Bill, the Irish Quit B.ents,,Bill,''(which was ordered to be printed) and the Oil of Vitriol Bounty Bill; which were read a first time. • TRAINING BILL , F,drl SP EATER moved the Order of the Day for toe House resolving itself into a Committee on the Training Bill. His Lordship observed, this Bill was one to which he could scarcely anticipate any obj&tion.. It was founded on . the exercise of his Blajesty's undoqbted Prerogative a prerogative which had:never been disputed—that of calling out all those who' were able to bear arms for the defence of the Country against an invading Enerny. The only question that could arise wits as to;the means of exercising that prerogative. Under the present. circumstances of the Country, and looking, as we must do, to the enormously increased poNver • of France, it was evident that it was absolutely necessary a large efficient force should be kept up ready for the exigency of the .moment. The objet of the present Bill was to train td arms 200,000 men, who might in. AZZCZC of -- 7 rue in aid of the other force of the Country. It was not to be said that because we had already a large force, that Therefore it was unneces sary to resort to other measures; it should lie remem bered, that on our 'Vast extent of coast it was impos sible-strittly.to guard every point, it was therefore the more necessary that there should be an efficient force .ready to bear down upon any point where their services might be most wanted. Provision was made • in this Bill, that it should interfere as little as possible With the varied pursuits of the people, or break in mach upon their Convenience, and at the same time mroption was given to those who might not wish, for various' reasons, to be trained with the persons an whom this Bill would generally operate, or who could not go out to be trained without great injury to their business, to pay instead a pecuniary fine. — It was also provided that the number to be called out should be ballotted for, which was thought, and justly in his opinion, the fairest mode of chooSing the perpns to be trained, thereby avoiding all par tiality. He was convinced, that when the Bill was -thoroughly undeistood in the country, the voluntary zeal and ardour of the people would render it un necessary to carry the compulsory provisions into execution. The Bill might not be immediately • operative, but he looked forward to the most bene ficial permanent effeets from such a system. 'lt waS /lot merely at the exigency of the moment that he looked to the Bill for aid to the country, but he con sidered it -as the means of - inspiring a military cha rd&er into a large Mass of the population of the country, and thus, in. the midst of our commerce and our wealth, giving us also military strength, and enabling us to enter, fully prepared, into any future war, with the moans of sending out of the country -a large disposable force. He concluded by moving,' that the House •. , hould resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill. - Lord Viscount MELVILLE said it was not 'his wish to oppose any measure which His Majesty's ' Ministers considered necessary for the defence of the Country, but he Must beg , leave to expres's doubts as to the propriety or utility of the present Bill.. In considering this • measure, he naturally looked to the. present state of the , . Military :Force of the Country, end when he found. that 'we had at present a Volunteer Force of from 3 to 400,000 Men, in addition to the Regular Army and Militia, he - was induced to ask where was the necessity of this mea sure ? Vie had already a large force of a much su perior description to any that this Bill could give, a force which had arisen out of the voluntary spirit, the seal and the ardour of the country, a force, in con- templating which everyman might sleep sound in 1*; bed, and consider the country secure. Why • then resort to compulsory Means, when we had al ready a sufficient force, and when the country was already secure ? To resort now to such a Bill .as the • .present, would tend to dishearten and discourage that vojuntary force, to whom the country were so much indebted, by telling them that they were of little,use, that, notwithstanding all their zeal and ar dour, it was still necessary to resort to compulsory 'means to enstire the security ofthe country, He did not mean to insinuate that Noble Lords on the other side had any wish or intention to discourage .the . teers ; but declarations' had been made, which had 'gone forth to the country, and which certainly tend -, .. ed to dam 'the ardour and the spirit of those who I had so loyally an . dsopatriatiCally stepped forward i 4 the hour of danger to take up. arms 'in the defenee of the COuntry. HoW Was such a force as the pre:- i sent to be properly disciplined ? bow was it to •be officered ? No means were pointed out-by, which such 1 a force was to be rendered really efficient. , A greet -expellee would be incurred in carrying the provisions 1 of the Bill into execution—air expellee ibr which • he . had not the least doubt that 200,000 Volunteers might be provided, properly Rrmed, accoutred, cloth- t, ed,. and officered ; d force,which, if was needless to say, would be ot a much superior description 'to that which would arise out of the present Bill. There was; besides,' another obje&ion to the present Mea- ! sure, arising out . of a Bill of a similar nature brought forward at the comthencement 0f.. - he War; in which '. it was provided, that if a number of Volunteers came . forward, equal- to six times the number of the Mili- tia,' the comPolsory prelision of training shoo-411ot i„ be resorted to. Colisiderably.more than that &um, ber of Volunteers didcoMe forward, and now, not withstanding that, a new Bill Was brought in, to carry into execution :a compulsory Mode of training,, and Chits to sobstitute a force which was notltnown, nor never had existed in the Country; for one which had been already tPied and found .efficient. He Was thoroughly convinced that nothing had 'tended in a greater degree to silence the boastings of theEneniy, and show him the' futility :of his schemes against this COuntry, than . that zeal and patriotiSin Viiieli had been so , eminently evinced by . the Volun- , teers ; and he appealed - upon this sUbjea . to .a - No ble Lord (Moira) on. the other• side' of the House, who, when commanding in Scotland, . spoke in the highest -terms of the quality and --efficiency of that description of force: If, then,.as he contended, the ' Volunteers were an efficient force, where was the necessity of resorting to a measure for training a large portion of , the population of the. Cotintry to arrris ? The Volunteers were, in faa, the trained popUlation, of the Country, and trained in 'a manner greatly su perior to the training which would be carried into . effea under this Bit). He agreed in the policy train ingof , . yonng men to arms, and making it a part of their education; but'he thought it would be much better to give up the present Bill, which could not, at -any rate, be carried. into effea - for -some time to come, and-next Session a Bill might be braught in with provisions More adequate to the intended objea. The Earl of MOIRA said, the Noble Viscount agreed in, the necessity of having alarge .efficient '. force under the present circumstances of the Coun try ; the only difference of opinion between them was • as to the quality of that force. He had beenappeal. , ed'to by the Noble Viscount with respea to, an opi nion formerly uttered by him . , as to the efficiency of the Volunteer Force.of Scotland, and to that opinion . he still adhered. At the time . he commanded in Scot land,' he not only undertbok the detence of that Coun try, bat also Of the Northern parts of England, and had so high an, opinion ._of. the .Voluntedr Force, that he would have led them . on , with_ the utmost confidence against 'an invading enemy. •It was ill '. that confidence in - the Volunteers that he parted__ with the Regular Troops under his command ; who . were thereby rendered disposable for the service of the Country in other quarters. This was not an overweening confidence, but a confidence founded upon an cxperience Of the efficiency of the Voltin.: teer Force---a confidence which . he still maintained; nor would he hesitate to lead on such 'a three - against any veteran army 'of France . which could effect a landing here. The Noble Viscount' had contended that our present force was sufficient for our defence—, this argument might be good, if we could know at what point an Enemy might attempt to effect a land ing, or that he would only make the attempt at one point ; but with our vast extent of coast this was.ob vionsly impossible, and therefore it became necessary to have a large efficient force in the Country, ready for the exigency of the moment. , He admitted that the Volunteers' were a much superior description of force: . to the force which Could be procured under the present Bill ; but it was not intended, as the No ble Viscount had said, tn substitute this force for the Volunteers, but (to. bring it iniaid . of theM., The Noble ViF,count had talked of expressionS which had been used, tending to discourage and dishearten the Volunteers ; but he disclaimed any such intention in any of his Colleagues in office, and maintained that what had been alluded to, had been invidiously misrepresented. - Our, present' force, it was said; was-sufficient for the defence of-the country ; but were they to look only to the defenceof our coast, without considering the medesadoptedby the enemy of attacking the mources of our commerce and our prosperityin other quarters'? No, he looked forward to a period when, if the war continued., we:might, by means of our Volunteer FOrce,. and the term raised under this Bill at home, be enabled to serid every Battalion Of regular Trobps ;out of -.the country, to. combat the EneMy in thoSe quarters where they were .attacking our resources and our interests.; Were an. , Enemy then to laud in-this Country, he would lead .on a Volunteer Army against them with the Utmost .confidence. .' It would be wise policy, in such a si tuation, not to risk a battle. without absolute. neces- - , sity, but in the meati time the - peasantry trained under this Bill might be twist advantageously , • em ployed in firing from behind hedges and banks. upon the columns of the Enemy; who,, unable to send out 'detachments, and perpetually harassed by 'this mode of attack, would ultimately be overwhelmed' and-completely- defeated. He could not conceive by . what mode of calcination the Noble Viscoun t had dis ' covered that''2oo,oooVolunteerS could be raised for , the same epence as w9uldlle incurred under the pre sent. Bill. How those 200,000 Volunteers were to be raised, it was beyond his comprehension to discover. , As to the objeaion, that there was no provision for offi cering the men trained under thiS Bill, it was not in-. tended to officer them until the exigency of the mo ment Might: require it, but merely to. train them. to ' the use. of arms,, that. in ' case of emergency they • might be employed with effea a7ainst an enemy; and 'in aid of the VolonteerS. le - considered the • Bill to be well calculated for the - purposes which he had mentioned, and its'provisions to be well adapted to secure the objeas intended to be effe&dd. ' . . The Earl of IVESTMOR.4AND contended, that . 'the Bill imposed a heavy burden upon the country without the probability of derivingfrom it any Ade quate'advantage. There were, he believed, 15,000 pariShes, and how were the Men in, these different parishes to be trained ?, How many .serjeants and (`constables must there be ? How many drums and' files"? What was to be done with the arms ? Were the serjeants to travel in postLchaises or balloons ? Thlre appeared toihim to be no adequate .provision for .carrying.the,objed of the-Bill into effect. Bill, besides, threw slur , upon the :Volunteers, by zleclaring that \thehr. services.. , were..inadequate— It' had been said, that opinions given respecting the Volunteers had been, misrepresented ;. but was it meant to be - stated that the . N,.ewspapers.and -all the Short=hand Writers hnd been bribed to circulate a thkrepresehtation - through the Country ? Were not other measures, - favourable to the "Volunteers, suggested by Majesty's Servants through the mouth of Nis Majesty? • • Lord . GREiwILLE spoke to order. The Noble Lord was, he conceived, irregular in diScussing Mons uttered in another place, and certainly in men tioning His Majesty.in . the 'way he had just clone. .774 e Dirt of WESTMORLAND said, if the ex pression he had used was improper, he would say, measures that had been announced by His Majesty through the mouths of his servant 3. Lord GIItNVILLE again. spoke to order, declaring it disorderly for any Noble Person to say that his Majesty spoke through the mouth of any Member of Pai-liament. The Earl of WESTMORLAND apologized for having used the name of his Majesty in any. way that was conceived impreper, but contended that in discussing the opinions used in another place, he had only done what had been-done before in the. course of the de bme. His Lordship resumed his arguments against the Bill; which he contended was, not calculated to produce any advantage to the Country.. Lord SIDMO UTH defended the Bill, which he contended was not near so rigorous .in its provisions as the. Bill of a similar deSCription brOught'forward when the Noble Lord (Westmorland) and himself were in Administration. The Objeit of the Bill was' to raise a force which Might be yendered essentially useful, 'either-by being incorporated with the Regu lars or the Militia, or in other modes, in the event ofan attempt on the part of the Enemy. It had been truly said, by a great and eminent Charaaer, that we might have in this, Country what an Enemy could not bring with him—an armed People, whom - no', Enemy could conquer: It was in this view that the BilLwas essentially important, as contributing ma- • terially to that ,great .object. It had been insinuate - el by the Noble ViscOnnt (Melville) that this measure was a breach of faith with the People, inasmuch 'as, by the last Training. Bill, compulsory measures were not to be adopted if Volunteers,to 4 certain 'extent carne forward. That Bill, however, only authorized ,His Majesty to suspend, in 'that event, the 'operation of tl* compulsory Clauses; but did not, nor cOtild, affea His Majesty's prerontive to call out the Peo ple whenever • necessa4r: - The present • measure was redered necessary, in order to rakse:a force . 'efficient for 't he purposes for, which it 'was -*anted, and which would come in aid a the Voltinteers; . Lord ELDON declared, that no man more highly, approved than, he had done, aiia that none could at this. moment be more firmly' convinced than he was, -of the. propriety and merits of the military meaSttres •brought forward by 'the Noble. Viscount who sPoke last. 'The measures Of the Ministry who:succeeded 'the Noble Viscount, at tale., head of Whom was that.great man whose loss was now so justly de -plored; he .was alsosonvinced were the best which could be'rdsorted, to in the situation in which the • country was nlaced.: These measures had also been approyed .of by. the Noble Viseotnit; :and . he (Lord EICIOn) was, only afraid. the. Noble Vis Count ' : was not entirely aware of the nature of the present measure, introduced by those with whom he now acted, who had so loudly decried the meaSures_of the Noble Visconnt and of his successor, its being , tally weak and inefficient. The opinions of Ole pre sent Government,. as to, the Volunteer Force of the Country, .it was not his wish to judge 'of from any representations-whia had taken place out of the House.: He Must' therefore colleEt it frorn.*hat,he‘ ~should hear their Lordships say in their places this rlightr .He "hinst, hOWever, declare, ,that, in • his opinion, to Olen) this Country 'was not indebted alone for Safety-from a foreign foe, bui that tothe.ir being collected together at the periOd When-they were first embodied, was owing the existence at this Moment of the Conititution. The - present-Bill, cir any other which could have any tendency :to degrade . them, Or to +ender their-services less beneficial, he should never approve of. He alluded to the promises of Ministe7rs to bring forward a Complete Military System, not a piece 'here and a piece there—but contended, that in this they had completely broken their word, and , that, after an interval of some months, first one part, of their system, and now at the distance of another month another part of their system had been introduced. Lord GRENVILLE, - after the able statements in suppbrt of the measure Made by his Noble Friends near him, should not have thought it necessary to. Say a word on'the subject, - had it not ,been for the observations of the Learned Lord' who spoke last. For the Right Honourable- Gentleman' now no more,' to whom the Noble and- • Learned Lord had alluded, no person could feel more strongly than be did, He had been his dearest friend, and When, he ,had differed . . from hidr it was ''with -sincere re gret; but, at the game time, he could not sacrifice 'to - hub his judgment and every idea of propriety. With respet to the opinions of His Majesty's nistera as to the Volnnteers, every individual Mem ber of Administration in this House knew that there th was" but one opinion aong them. This 'Opinibn, ha de:Sired might ColleCted, not-from.their words-but from their conduct.. Ord they not been among the first not merely to countenance and encourage, but themselvek to 'a part, in that service ?‘ And could it be sUPposed that they . ‘vished to, do any , thing which should go to degrade, and insult them 'selves and their comrades 'and companions in arms For the Government collectively, too, he could declare, that so far from degrading, it was their wish to , honour and prote6t 'the Volunteers—to protea them more particularly against 'that foul sinuation 'Which had been (brown out against t4.4em, that they had so little patriotism as to be deterred,bys misrepresentations and misconceptions, from per forming their duty to their country. if, however, by saving the country, the Noble and Learned Lord tneatitthqd there was .eny dread but that for their existence our country was at present in dang 4 from 'its internal enumies, he 'could by no means .follow, him that length. He was convinced, if there were among ourselves any enemies to tie. c , ':-nstKg Lion of this country,. the occurrences, of the three last years must have peen more than snai*at to . , hrlng them back - to the path of lovalty. Lord ship then proceeded to shew that the present was oot a separate measure, but a part of the .General nary System which the present 'Government had re solved adopt,, and which, the Noble and Learned Lord could hardly have expeeted',to 'see compre hended in one Bill. First, they had got" rid of One measure which- was universally acknowledged to btirdensome and unjust in itself,which had been un produeitive, and at the same time operated A. a draw back on the ordinary recruitin}4. -They-then, pr - ceeded to introduce a limited endurance of service, with the double view of incre:!sing the number, and of introducing into the Army a new ordet, superior in -zeal and energy, as superior in, knowledge., The Voltinteer -Force "Still existed,. and now the present Bill was. brought in for the purpose _ cif forming a force in addition to it, 'by which, in time, the whole Country should be instrated in the use of arms. fle . informcd the Noi)le,L. ,o,l7(mmor land) that it il'as.the intention.of the pitsent ,vernment to' disperse (200,000estand.of artrt aritong thepe,ppleof the Conntry ; • and ScY for • were they from - being afraid of this, that they even iniended --, to instruct them how to nse thorn. Neither should they think it necessary to have them deposited in some castle or fortress; but should think, that is enabling'every man to become habituated toalte Uso' °farms, and the People thus to become, an Armed People, while they in no wise endangered the peaal .of the Country at home, they rendered it hay:liner: able against every foreign attack. • • ' Lord HA WEESBUfiYeatpred into along inveS tigation- of the different 'measures alluded to by the Roble Lord, and partieul arly of the, advant ageS voluntary services which, he Was convinced, would be great lyaffeaed by the present measure --a Ineasuie which, in his opinion, would he equally enensttve, and by nomeans so efficient, as the voluntary force. Uci, :should not, however, press - the matter to a uestion. Earl WESTMOIfLAND and Lord-G-gmcv IL /. ally explained. Earl ROSSLII.VsheWed that the Volunteer service could not at all be alfeCted by 'the pft=.'Sellt measure, which was not a substitute for, but an addition to, the Volunteer System. -lie took . a view of the dii - Terent immunities, such as exemption from ballot for the Militia, Army of Reserve; &c. which had been for merly. held out to them, and maintained, that iu stead of -being degraded, as it had.been terrnz!d, by this Bill, it also, went to encourage the enteringiuto the Volunteer Corps,',by exempting all' such from - the provisions of the Bill. He 'asked, too, if it could be contended, that the same number .of Vo lunteers would continue, having nothing but . the , August establishment, while the contributions -were discontinued .He adverted to' what bgd fallen front the Learned Lord (Elderl); as to the Volunteers be ing sayiours of, the Constitution, and trusttxl it could not even be insinuated that such an idea was at all well founded, in the present state of the Country. Lord ELDON, in explanation, declared, that be had .never. either insinuated or drear:it of such a thine - . He had simply alluded to the. Volunteers at the time of their formation, and had attributed to them, he was convinced correCtly, that this Country had .escaped those destructive and desolating principles by I which the liberties of the rest of Europe had been overturned. - The Question was then pu t,..theHouse.went in to a Committee, in which not a single Amendment was made, and the Bill was reperted. The Militia Ballot Snspension Bill also went thro' a Committee, and was reported without any Amend ment. The West India Intercourse Bill Was read a second time,- and ordered to be committed. , The other Bills on ;the Table wcre fw-warded. Adjourned at half fdit - 11 o'clock,. till to -morrnw (this.day). • " HOUSE OF COMMONS. FRIDAY, 4 1.TLY Mr. VANSITTART brought in a Bill for granting the Surplus of the Conseil - dated Fund for 'the service of the year. Read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow- The Newfoundland Fish Bounty Bill, the Qua rantine Bill, arid the Exchequer Bills Bill, were read a third time and passed; also-the Irish Quit-tent. Bili. The London Additional Force Bill, and Lord Ro&- ney's Annuity Bill, were read a second. time, find de . tiered to be . committed to-morrow; and also, the Seamans' A 116 wance Bill. ' The Sugar Bounty Bill, and the \*Varehousing - Bill, went through a Committee ; the 'Reports, to be re ceived to-morrow ; also the French Wine Importa timi 1311.1, the Silk , Bounty Bill, and the Malta Trade Bill. • .. . - .3.‘ . kilo B I-1 ousE breughtup the Report of the Selel CommitteeOn the InSolrent Debtors' Bill 5 . wha was 'ordered to be taken into farther consideratiott ou - Monday. • . -.--- • , s . , On the Motion of Lord PRIMROSE it was ordered that the Coiiinntuce appointed to examine the Jolla Account-Of Great Britain and Ireland have to report . from time to time. '• . Lord,PrtimitosE' r then brought up a .Report fro.:3 this committee; which was, ordered to be printed. On the Motion of Lord PRDIROSZ it was orderqi that there be.-laid before the House ..AcCoun's of ail Payments made on. the Joint. Account of Great Bri tain anti: Ireland in the yearS 1901, 2,3, 4, a.ld 5. • MALI • isi Li,. . . . Mr.. VA NSITTART 'IIIaCCI, . that the .coma it lien't of the Malt Bill be postponed. till Monday, for, ti,c purpose of prepring - game Clauses which aver.; to be introduced in.the Committee.. Mr. TAKER represented' the inconvenience .that arose fromfromputputting-offthe commitment, after it was solemnly'fixed. - • Mr, T. JONES spoketo the same effea. The•de-' lay.was tCg - reat inconvenience to the Miltters. Mr. V ANSITTART stared, that the Maltsters had already the benefit of tile Ad by a Treasury Order. • Mr. YorE ..K could not 'comprehend how :a Tha- isilrTOrder, could dispense with- an ACt: of Parlia ment. . . ' Mr. VANSITTAR.;r ;said, Treasury Orders of: kind. had betin very freqUently granted. The of, in question had been- cc:Mmunicated to the , 110 tle, and had recek ed a virtual sanction. , Mr. PLOM?,II said, usage-was no juStificatipa .)t I.e breach of the law—usage hat been. - rormerly ~,eiere d in defence. of General W:!rrAnts. - In-answer to a question from Mr. Baker, .Mr. '. ANSritART stated, that it-was not intanded .to al-