The Sun. — London, England, 1840-07-01 00:00:00

EVEN 11 CT EDITION. in a manner that was very unwarrantable of the Dissenters i —it was a ceurse which he would not follow, because he I thought the example a bad one. Was he aware that he Dissenters had expended a sum of eight pillions in the erection ef places for public worship. Now, all those places were for the purpose of teaching the people reli gieus truths ; they annually expended no less a sum than two millions for religious purposes. They did not come to the House, and demand a sum from the Consolidated Fund. Nor did they say that the funds of the Church were appropriated to the instruction of the whole people, which was the fact; and that now it did not give instruc tion to more than half. They had a right then to com plain of the hardship which the Right Hon. Baronet wanted to throw upon them. The Hon. Baronet had I spoken of the entity means of the Church. He stated it at 3,400,0001. He took that from the returns of the Ecclesiastical Cociamissioaers. They were very inaccu rate. Let them look at the returns made by the Tithe Commissioners, and they would find that the amount was not less than 5,000,000/. These were very different sums. It was the richest Church in the world.—( No.) He eonfcssed he did not know any richer Ecclesiastical establishment in the world. Why then did they come and ask the House to take the contributions ef Catholic Ire land, of Presh)terian and Dissenting England, for the ex tension of that rich Church ? Why put their hands into - their empty pockets in order to give their money to these who were so wealthy ? The Hon. Baronet had boasted much of the petitions which had been presented upon the subject. Nov he fully believed that not one of Coons had e% or heen subjected to the ordeal of a public meeting ; they were all hole and corner petitions ; they were sent from London to about 10,000 parishes, and only 2,000 had been returned, with an average of from 60 to 70 signatures. The Churchmen had had a twelvemonth start of ti e opponents of the measure, yet their petitions, public petitions, amounted to nearly as mauy in number, and with more signatures. Had the First Fruits and Tenths been al.plied in a proper manner since the days of Queen Anne, they would have hat enough of Church accommo dation is every parish in England.—( Cheers). The mis application of that fund had led to all their difficulties. The Hon. Gentleman quoted from the speech of Lord Stanley at the late general election, to the effect that the wealth ef the Church should be so distributed as tee raise small benefices, and that pluralities ough; to be abolished, he therefore hoped the Noble Lord would vote against the motion of the ft ieht Hon. Baronet, as he bad acknowledged that there was enough of wealth in the Church to supply the preseut destitution. There was mother source of revenue; the Church leases might be made serviceable for extension, as it seemed now settled ;hat they were nett to made available for the extinction of Church raves. Ia the borough of Leeds within the last three er four years, a seta of no less than 40,000/. had been contributed towards Church Extension.—( Hear.) That was an ex ample that ought to be followed, and then such a demand es was made by the Right Honourable Baronet would be unnecessary. Let the House also look at what had been done in the metropolis in answer to the almost divine call of the Bishop of London to build fifty churches. He hoped the Church would go on in such a good work, and he trusted the Dissenters' exertions would he increased also, and no call upon the people of so unjust a character would be rendered necessary. He hoped the house would pause and consider what was the destitution of the Church accommodation, and what were the moans of the Church, be fore they made so enormous a demand upon a benkrupt Ex chequer as 10,000,000/., for that was the amount stetted to be necessary by that warm Church Extensionist the Rev. B. Noel—in his lester to the Prime Minister he said, "My Lord, give us 2,000 churches."—( Hear.) Let the Right Hon. fisronet so alter his motion as to make it one of in quiry into the destitution, and he would support him ; as it at present stood be must give it his most strenuous opposi tion.—( Divide.) Mr. O'CONNELL could not allow the division to take piece without entering his strongest protest against the Motion. He considered it both skulking and audacious. It was skulking, because the Hon. Baronet refused to tell them how much of the public money he wanted. All i hat ha told them was that during a period of 20 }ears the people of England had had thirty. eight millions thrown hack to there by the remission of taxation—so that then they had the maximum of the Right Hon. Baronet, but were left quite at sea as to what his minimum was to be. It was bold in any denomination—he would not call them a sect, because ho was told that that would be offensive— he would not call then a Church, because that he could lot do—but it was bold in any persuasion to come before the country and demand from the public an indefinite sum of money. At the time of the Reformation the country was well enough churched. It stood upon good authority that there were then no fewer than 27,000 churches, some of them had been allowed to go to ruin, and now the ' Church comes and complains of its own default. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that the population had in creased ; that was an admitted fact ; but so also had the value of tithes and land —( Cheers.) Whose fault was it, then, that there was great spiritual destitution? He charged it upon the Establishment. Was not the speech ef the Right Honourable Baronet a great triumph to the enemies of the Church of England ? The Hon. Member for Pontefract had felt the principle was so unjust that he proposed to exempt Ireland frees the increased taxation. Would he agree also to exempt Scot land and the Dissenters in England ? It was only last Monday that he saw a meeting called at the Mansion House by Lords and Bishops, for the porpoise Cl subscrib ing money for foreign mission 3. Now if there were this miserable destitution in the Church why should not their exztions be eesfined to home ?—( Hear, hear.) The Drilionters built their churches and paid their clergymen ; the Catholics in England did the same ; and without calling upon the public to support thorn they had lately doubled the number of the Bishops. Is Ireland they sup ported a perfect hierarchy, and that without calling upon the public for one single sixpence. The Church of Englaml was infinitely richer than the Church in Ireland. let in Dahlia alone, within the last fifteen years, 170,0001. had been collected upon the voluntary principle, and ex pended is the erection of places of worship. if they were not rich enough in ecclesiastical buildings, why did they not put their hands in their own pockets ?—( Cheers.) Why wish to put their heads in the pockets of other people, who did toot believe in the doctrines they taught ? The • Hen. Baronet had said that France had voted 1.400,0001. for the Church in 1841 ; but he had not stated the whole case ; that sun covered the expense of all sects, even to the upholding of the Jewish Synagogue. It also provided for tee repairs ef the churches and the maintenance of hospitals, and this wits for a population of 40 millions of people. They had five millions a inually for a population ef eight or Ries, millions belonging to the Established Church, and yet they came to the House calling oat for e ore money What connection was there between money and religion ? Would not their Ministers preach with zeal and fervour unless their pockets were stuffed with public gold ?—( Hear, bear.) There seemed to be a notion in the mind of the Right Hon. Baronet that money and religion were so wedded together, that the latter must perish if not liberally supplied with the former.—( A laugh. )—lt had been stated that the Right Hon. Baronet, 1 upon former eccasione, said he would not give 6d. to maintain a religion, the tenets of which he did not believe, In that he (Mr. O'Connell) enth sly con curred with him. It would be a great injustice to make the Right Hononrable Baronet to pay the same 6d., but he would submit to him whether his religion did not teach him to do unto others as he would be done by.—( Cheers.) If it were injustice in the case of the Hen. Baronet, would it not be as unjust in the case of any other individual ? He joined with the Right Hon. Baronet in protesting against :he principle of calling upon others to pay for the spread of those doctrines in which they could net believe. If there were religious zeal, there would be no want of funds fZie Church Extension ; and if there were not religious zeal, there was no use in building churches.—(Cheers.) Ha protested against the motion, and trusted that the ilotrie would reject it. LerdTEIGNMOUTH and Mr. F. MAULE rose to gether, and amidst loud cries of '. Adjout le" The former proceeded to address the House amidst such a noise, as ren dered it nearly impossible to hear him in the gallery, Ile was quite astonished to hear the statements of the Hon. Member for Leeds.—( Interruption, and cries of " Di. vide, divide.") He was upon a Committee of Nletrolo• Titan Heathers for the purpose of providing a site fer the Royal Exchange, and they, without any ceremony, pro posed a tax upon the poor for such a purpose, altheugh they now objected to an additional grant for building churches.—( Oh, and cries of " Divide.") By the rc turas he held in his hand, it appeared that there was by no moans sufficient church accommodation in the metro politan parishes. In Bethnal-green, which coetaiaed a population of 70,000, there was only church room for 5,000, while the Dissenters had church room for not less than 2 000. He thought the statistical details of the Hon. Member for Leeds had completely failed is esteb• liaising the positions which he set out with. He would refer thorn to the state of Scotland, as showing thegreat ' difference between the two or e est r i es i n that re spec t. The Noble Lord proceeded to state some detailsinr r eferenc e to the buildiag of Roman Catholic chapel s , b ut the lou d' and repeated cries of " Adjourn," " Divide," are. rendered it impossible to catch his concluding observations. Mr. OSWALD made a few remarks which were qui t e of inaudible, owing to the noise previously in the botii the House. Lord JOHN RUSSELL und,intood the whole ques tion to be, wh ether ICey should now resolve to go into a Committee of ene whole Houle in order to move an address to hats Majesty to grant a cnneidcrable sum of money to supply the deficiency of religious instruction. It effeared to him that the imposition of additional bur desaMpoe the people, under the present circumstances of taeavy taxation, would be calculated to excite great irrita tion and ill-feeling.—( Hear, hear.) fie thought, also, that it would by . no means give satisfaction to the greet bulk of the Dissenters. He did not think that there was any truth in the auert!on that had been made that the interests of' the Church were in danger—on the contrary, he thought at present it stood extremely well with the people, and that it would not be judicious to introduce any topics which might be calculated to excite a feeling o prejudice or dissatisfaction in tho minds of the public agaiust the estallishrnent. He believed it had been ad mitted by the most eminent Church authorities that a suns of 140,0001. a year might be derived from an im proved management of Church leases, and the Archbishop of Canterbury had given his assent to such a proposition ; but her Majesty's Government had declined to introduce such a plan unless with the express condition that the fund should be applied for the purposes of education. Viewing all the circumstances to which he had alluded, he thought the Church would stand in a much better situa tion if it did net come upon the means of others, hut re sorted to its own. He thought that in adopting the plan now under consideration they weuld come to a fir better determination than according to the motion of the Right Hon. Baronet, Such being his views, he must oppose the motion of the Hon. Baronet. Mr. V. STUART rose amidst loud cries of " Divide, - I Villit " and " Spoke, spoke." The Hon. Member in ..... 4 'vain sealer. 24 , p address the House, and finding it int et pos i• e i • 1 4 ' ht a hearing sat down. • re, .. en. . e then ordered to withdraw, and the 1 4 r:'/' - i lA' * . i, i en there appeared— r .111 - '?- 1 .. —` e i . : . 6 .lion r o 149 163 - .. , Mrtjettity'au .. : - the_ruotiou --• _ , „ , I ' S - A/ NEW SOUTH WALES. On our admis.ion into the gallery we found Lord JOHN RUSSELL moving for leave to bring in tr Bill to make provision for the Government of New South Wales for 10 years. He did not propose to ex tend its provisions to Van Diemen's Land. Leave was given to bring in the Bill. In answer to aquestion from Colonel SIBTHORP, Lord J. RUSSELL stated that it was not his inten tion to proceed with the Civil Contingencies, in the Com mittee of Supply on Friday, but he should proceed with the Ecclesiastical Bill on that day. Colonel SIBTHORP said that whenever the Civil Con tingencies should be brought on, he should bring forward the motion of which he hnd given notice relative to Dr, Bowring's report. GRAMMAR SCHOOLS BILL. The Grammar Schools Bill then passed through Com mittee. SUDBURY ELECTION. The SPEAKER, on resuming the Chair, informed the House that he had that day received a letter from Mr. Tomline, the Sitting Member for Sudbury, against whose return a petition had beer. presented to the House, stating that it was not his intention to defend his return. The wher Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Half past One o'Clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 30. The Losu CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at Five o'Clock. The Glass Duties Bill was read a second time. The Glasgow AS4CSSMCHt Bill was read a third time and pass.d. The Earl of ERROL presented a petition from the in habitants of Aberdeen, in public meeting assembled, in favour of the Earl of Aberdeen's Bill for removing doubts as to the admission of ministers into benefices in th• Church of Scotland. The Marquis of NORMANBY moved the second reading of the Poor Rate's Amendment Bill. The Bill was accordingly read a second time. The Bishop of LLANDAEF presented a petition from a place in his own diocese in favour of Church Ex tension in that district. He could bear testin - .ony to the great extent of religious destitution, and he lamented to observe petitions on this subject were received with so much indifference, if not antagonism. The Bishop of GLOUCESTER presented a peti tion from Bristol in favour of Church Extension. THE CANADAS. Earl GOSFORD presented a petition from the Roman Catholics of the diocese of Montreal, against the union of the two Canadas. The No3le Earl then presented a peti tion to the same effect, signed by 40,000 inhabitants of Lower Canada. CHURCH OF SCOTLAND. The Marquis of BREADALBANE rose to present the following petition, of which he had given notice, on the subject of the divisions now prevailing in the Church of Scotland : "To the Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled, " The Humble Petition of the Persons whose names are hereunto subscribed, being the Convenor, the Secretary, and other Members of a Committee appointed by the late General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, to watch over the progress of a Bill recently introduced into your Lordship's House, ir,tituled, An Act to remove doubts TO specting the admission of Ministers into Beneficed in that part of the United Kingdom called Scot land,' or any Bill relative to that subject, " Sheweth— " That your Petitioners have been deputed by the above-named Committee of the General Assembly, with instructions to use all competent means for opposing the above-mentioned Bill is its present form ; and your Peti tioners beg leave to state shortly the circumstances in which they aro called upon to address your Lordships. " That in the year 1712, on the Bth day of April, a Bill was introduced into your Lordships' Hou,e,intituled, ' An Act to restore Patrons to their ancient rights of present ing Ministers in that part of Great Britain called Scot land ;" that on the same day, a petition was presented from the Commission of the General Assembly •of the Church of Scotland, praying ' that they might be heard by their counsel as to what they had to represent concern ing the Bill;' and on a subsequent day, the 11th of April, a petition to the same effect was presented from William Carstairs, Thomas Blackwell, and Robert Mollie, minis ters of the Church of Scotland, ' appointed by the Corn mission of the General Assembly of the aforesaid Church, to use all proper and legal :measures for preserving the rights and privileges thereof.' " That the former of these two petitions having been withdrawn, on the ground of an informality, the latter was entertained, and the prayer of it was granted; and accordingly, the above-named ministers were heard by their counsel, upon the said Bill, on the 12th day of April, 1712. " That the petition of the Commission of the General Assembly, and of the Ministers appointed as aforesaid, set forth the opposition of the Church of Scotland to the said Bill ' for restoring patrons to their ancient rights of pre senting ministers,' on the following among other grounds ; viz., that the rale concerning the nomination and admis sion of ministers had been settled at the revolution and confirmed by the Treaty of Ceion, and formed part of the constitution of the Church and kingdom, as inalienably ratified at those eras ; that the patrons, under the revolu tion settlement, had received a compensatiox for their rights of patronage, in the title then conferred upon them, to dispose of the vacant stipends, and to appropriate the unexhausted teinds ; that to re store them to their ancient rights, was to give them both the price sod the purchase ; and, above all, that the exercise of patronage had always been contrary to the genius and spirit of the reformed Church of Scotland, had been successfully resisted in the best periods of her history, and was inconsistent with the happy footing on which her government and discipline had, after long strug gles, been finally established. " That notwithstanding this opposition, the Bill passed your Lordship's House on the very day on which counsel was heard against it ; it being read a second time, com mitted, and road a third time, on one and the same day ; aid the rights of patronage were thus by law restored to the ancient patrons. " That the Church of Scotland, although continuing to protest against the statute restoring patronage, as an inva sion of her sacred privileges and liberties, and a violation of her rights under the constitution of the country, was nevertheless willing, from a regard to the inestimable ad vantages of a national establishment of religion, and to avoid the evils of schism or separation—to conform to the provisions of the said statute, in her ecclesiastical proce dure, relative to the settlement of ministers. " But while the Church, in conformity with the said statute, recognised the nomination of the lawful patron, she uniformly and invariably asserted her absolute right to deal with the presentee of the patron, according to her own principles end rules, relative to the trial and ordina tion of ministers ; and in particular the Church continued to claim and exercise the power of determinieg what measure of call or concurrence on the part of the people, was sufficient to warrant her in proceeding to the settle ment of a pastor among them. " That on any other understanding of the said statute re storing patronage, and of the rights of patrons and pre sentees under it, the Church, as is evident from history and from all that is known cf the views of her leading men—never could have submitted to that statute, even to the extent that she did, consistently wish her avowed doc trine on the subject of ordination, and with the funda mental and essential principles of her constitution ; and whatever laxity may have been introduced into the prac tice of the Church Courts in estimating the amount of concurrence on the part of the people, it is undeniably certain that the Church never, at any time, renounced the right of judging on the sufficiency of the call, as well as on all other questions affecting the trial and ordination of her ministers. The Church Courts continued, in every in stance, to pronounce a judgit ent on the call, and repeat edly exercised their right, to the exclusion of the pre sentee: and the Civil Courts, so far front interfering, ;bone ' n called ueon, expres s ly refused, o n th e groun d t h at they had no jarieliction in that manner. On this footing alone a large proportion of the most worthy office-bearers and members of the Church, during the whole of the last and of the present century, were enabled to remain in her communion. " That, in accordance with these views of the law of patronage, and of her own Eatrcers, the Church did, in the year 1534, lay down rules and regulations. for the guidance of the Church Courts in judging of the call or concur rence of the people ; giving effect to her fundamental principles in the form which seemed to her, at the time, to be the most salutary and the most expedicet for all parties. " That certain decisi;ine, since pronounced by the Civil Courts, he.ve put a construction upon the said statute re storing patronage, incompatible with the views and princi ples of the Church ; inasmuch as it would prevent the Church from giving eff e2t to her own convictions of duty when judging of the call of tile people, as an essential ele ment in the settlement of ministers. " That not only have these decisions of the Civil,Courts for the first time put a construction on the statute restor ing patronage, which would render that statute much more inconsistent than it was ei et- before thought to be, with the principles of the Church, but, still more recently, the Court of Session, p-oceeding upon that construction, and going beyond the determination of the civil matters affect ed by it, has adopted, in several instances, a course of direct interference and coercion towards the Church Courts, in the exercise of their spiritual functions relative to the trial and ordination of ministers ; thereby making an other and much more fatal encroachment on the constitu tion of the Church and Kingdom, as finally settled at the Revolution, and secured by the Treaty of Union. " That these proceedings of the Civil Courts have bad the effect of planing the Church in a new and most ern barrussing position. Not only is it thereby fixed, that when the Church acts in any case according to her funda mental principles in the trial and ordination of ministers, the Civ 1 Courts may refuse to acknowledge her judgments, as regulating the disposal of the fruits of the benefice— the only question which the Church submitted to legal de termination, and in ri gard to which she has bowed to that determination ; but a far more serious evil is found to im pend over the Church. She is exposed to the hazard of receiving, and has actually received orders aril injunc tions from the Civil Courts, to which neither her conscientious convictions of duty, nor her consti tutional standing in the country, permit her to yield obedience. And from these moat painful difficulties,—the most painful in which a Christian Church earl be placed, the Church, as m - ,ttetti stand, cthnot extricate herself by any change in the plan of procedure adopted in 1834, withaut either abandoning principles which she holds sa cred, or being equally liable, as at present, to the danger of the Civil Courts interfering with any other method which she might devise for carrying these principles into effect. " That the Bill now before your Lordships' House does not profess to alter or modify the law•, as thus interpreted by the Civil Courts; that while it is intended to remove doubts, it does not satisfactorily declare to what extent the jurisdiction of the Cnui ch, in the matter of the settlement of presentees is .to be recognised as exclu,ivo ; and that, in particular, so far from allowing to the Church courts a full and absolute discretion in disposing of all questions regarding the trial and ordination of ministers, it ex- I pressly precludes them from giving that considera tion which the Church holds that they are bound to .. _ give to the dissent or no n-concurrence of the com municants. For the Church, viewing the consent of parties, expressed or implied. as an element essential to the right perfo:mancc of that solemn act of ordination by which she ratifies and sanctions a relation, founded en the mutual agreement of the pastor and the people to under take towards one another its weighty duties and responsi bilities,--cannot, in any circumstances, r,linquish her power to refuse ordination when that element seems to her to be wanting ; and therefore she cannot now submit, as she never could have submitted, to any law which would limit her jurisdiction in that particular, or which might im pose upon her, i❑ any instance, the obligation of settling a presentee contrary to the will of the people. " That this Bill, if passed into a law, giving the sanction of the Legislature to the interpretation now for the first time put on the law of patronage by the Civil Courts, would fully realise the worst fears entertained by the I Church when that law was originally passed : that it would fatally abridge or destroy the liberties which were understold to be left to the Church even under that law, and which rendered it compatible with her sense of duty to conform to it; that it would not only interfere with the privileges of the Christian people, and their responsible position as members of the Church, but would grievously offend the conscicncies of ministers, and would impose upon them a rule on which they could not act ; and that, in short it would involve an enforcing of the rights of pa ronage, in opposition to the constitution of the Church, to an extent and in a way never hitherto attempted since the era of the Revolution. " That while the Church deeply deplores the evils ar ing from the exiting state of the law, as interpreted by the Civil Courts, and is most anxious to obtain a new declaration or modification of the law, to which, without doing violence to the conscientious conviction of her office-bearers and the religious liberties of her people, ehe m ay accommo.late her procedure in the settlement of ministers ; and while with this view she is willing to alter her own regulations, in conformity with any plan which the Legislature may adopt, consistent with the prin ciples of her constitution ; the measure now proposed, being inconsistent with these principles, cannot satisfy either the Church or the country, but mast inevitably ag gravate the disorder end danger attendant upon the pre sent positiot of affairs. " That on all these grounds the Church is constrained to offer strenuous and — uncompromising epposbion to the Bill now before your Lordships' House, in its present form: and your petitioners, having accordingly been com missioned by the Church to use all proper and constitu tional measures for that end, arc advised to make this ap plication, with a view to their being allowed to state more fully to your Lordships what they have to represent con cerning the said Bill. " That your petitioners beg leave to refer your Lord ships to the precedent already cited, which stands upon the records of your . Lordships' House, and which has im mediate reference to the subject now brought under the consideration of your Lordships, And considering that the Bill now before your Lordships, places the Church in a position simil.ar to that which she occupied when the law restoring patronage was originally proposed, bill much more critical, inasmuch as it threatens to destroy that element of freedom which alone made it consistent with her constitution to admit of patronage at all, your peti tioners are desirous of being heard by Counsel, at your Lordships bar, as their predecessors, in like circumstances, were heard, upwards of a century ago, in behalf of the just and constitutional liberties of the Church and people of Scotland. " Your petitioners therefore humbly pray that the said Bill may not pass into a law, and that they may be heard against the same, and such parts thereof as affect their rights, by themselves or their counsel, at the bar of your Lordships' House, at such stage of the said Bill as may suit your Lord ships' forms and convenience. " And your petitioners will ever pray. (Signed) ANGUS MAKELLAR, Convenor. DAVID WELSH. ROB. S. CANDLISH. J. HAMILTON, Secretary. The Earl of ABERDEEN stated that it was his in tention to move that the House should go into Committee on the Bill on the evening after to-morrow, that is, on Thursday evening.• With respect to the prayer of the petition, he must say, that although it was not usual to hear counsel against a Bill, in the stage in which this Bi'l was, yet he thought that the arguments which would bo offered by Counsel at the bar, in support of the opinions of the petitioners would be the strongest recom mendation in favour of the Bill. Ile, for one, should not object to their being so heard. A great part of the petition complained of the law of patronage, as it was settled by the Act of Queen Anne ; the rest was mainly directed rgainst the judgment of that House, in declaring and enforcing that law, and the objection to the Bill which he (Lord Aberdeen) had brought in was only made because it recognised the judg ment of the House in declaring the law.—( Hear, hear.) But he was quite sure that unless their Lordships heard those parties by Counsel at the bar, they would never hear the arguments against the Bill from within the bar. Lord BROUGHAM said that although ho differed from the Noble Earl in his general views of this question, yet he agreed with him in thinking, that if the usages of the House allowed it, it was desirable t• hear those parties at the bar, and he thought the more their opinions and wishes were beard, the stronger would be the impression of their Lordships in favour of the judgment which they had pronounced.—(Hear, hear.) Ho hoped and trusted that during the residence of those reverend gentlemen in London, those who communicated with them would have the honesty to tell them how little—little support was given in this or in the other House of Parliament, or in the country at large—(Hear, hear)—to those who were the authors of those events which all deplored, if he should not say disapproved.—( Hear, hear.) The Marquis of BREADALBANE said that the pe titioners were the representatives of the General Assem bly, by which body they were deputed to watch over the progress of the Bill. With respect to the observation of the Noble and Learned Lord below hint, that the peti tioners had no support in Parliament, or in the country, he must say that they had the support of the people of Scotland. Lord BROUGHAM said that he had intended to say that they had not the support of the people of Scotland. Lord C A NIP ERDO NV N expressed his concurrence in the opinions of Lord Brougham, in respect to the conduct of the petitioners, and the opinions of the people of Scot land in relation to this quc , tion. CANADA GOVERNMENT BILL. Lord MELBOURNE presented a petition from sub jects of her Majesty residing in and near Quebec, entirely contradicting the allegations of the petition which had been just presented by the Noble Lord opposite ( Lord Gosford) respecting the measure for the union of the pro • vinces, and the Government of the colony of Canada. The petition having been laid on the table, and the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Bill having been read, The NOBLE VISCOUNT said, it was now his duty to sub mit to their Lordships' impartial consideration the Bill for uniting the Governments of the two provinces of Upper and Lower Canada. That Bill came to their Lordships recommended by the House of Assembly of Upper Canada—by a large number of petitions from the inhabi tants of both the provinces—by the late and present re presentatives of her Majesty in the Government of those colonies—and by the other House of Parliament. Although in that House (the House of Commons) the Bill did not pass altogether w;thout objection and resistance, yet it passed with so little of either, that, although he could not state that it had received the unanimous, he thought he could say that it received the general consent of that body. On that ground he submitted the Bill confidently to the consideration of their Lordships, and he would not waste a moment in impressing upou them its great importance. ( Hear.) It involved great commercial interests of the colony sad of the mother country—it involved the honour and cha racter of England—but, above all, it was important to the future welfare and happiness of the great body of our fellow subjects, who were the inhabitants of the colony.— ( Hear, hear ) Under these circumstances i• was unneces sary for him to say that the foreign and colonial depen dencies of the country were of the greatest importance. Ever since she had raised her head amen , : nations and had been united under one monarchy, she had spread herself far beyond her own limits, and either by accident or circumstances. had possessed herself of large external territories. But when the great struggle in which that country was engaged in 1450, had termi nated, those great passes ions which she had gained by marr-age or by contract were lest to h•r. The di.- aovery of what was not inappropriately called the New World, opened a new field for the energy of Great Bri tain, and then were founded those great territories in North America, which now belonged to this country, and which remained faithful to it after the United States had asserted their independence. He would beg leave to re mind their Lordships that the reason why they had lost both France and America was not the energy of the ene mir.:s they had to contend with, but their own internal dis. cords and dissensions, which unques:ionably precipitated th ose even ts; and therefore he begged leave mist earnestly to recommend the present state of these colonies aed the Bill before them to their earnest, to their c-dm, to th .ir attentive, to their impartial, to their general, and to their peculiar consideration. It was unnecessary for him to recapitulate the various events which had led to the posi tion is which they then stood as regarded the territories for which the 8.11 had been introduced. It was unneces sary for him to recapitulate the manner in which those countries had been originally acquired, or to point out the object of the first measure introduced, namely, the Act of 1774 and the Act of 1791, nor need he remind the House of the fidelity of those counties during the two great crises oftheir contests with the Ame rican States. He need not remind their Lordships how, in later times, the spirit of alicna•ion spran• up among them, and the various contests between thy• diffarent Go vernors and the House of Assembly, utianttely leading to diff-renees that terminated in that outbreak and an insurrec tion which occasioned their Lordships to pass in the year 1838 an Act to suspend the Constitutional Act of 1791, and esta blish in Lower Canada Governm nt by a G ivereor and Sp -- cial Council. These matters had been so fully discussed and stated in the Papers which hind been laid on their Lord ships' table, and their attention had been so repeateely and forcibly called to them, that their Lordships were per fectly aware oftt•e position in which they were now placed with regard to those colonies. It seas generaly admitted the Act of 1838 was but provisional. It was the duty of the Executive Government in both countries to consider the speediest means of putting an end to the provisions of that Act. They had been accused of tardiness for not having done it before, and it seemed to be generally admitted that the present state of things could not continue, and that it was absolutely incumbent upon them to provide another mode of government fur these colonies. This was the position in a hick they were placed, and in order to provide for a fair and wise government in that country, the Bill had been sent up to their Lordships, the contents of which he would now proceed to lay before them. It empowered her Majesty to authorise the Governor of Lower Canada to declare the union of those provinces which had been separated by the Act of 179], which se.- THE SUN, LONDON - , WEDNESDAY, JULY 1, 1810. partition, and all the provisions necessarily consequent thereon,' were mode by authority of that Act, to repeal so much of the Act of 1791 as carried into effect tho Sc- paration of the provinces, and it provides that such repeal should not revive any former Act. It secured the con tinuance of the present Government till the union. It enaeted there should be one Governor as heretofore, and one Council, and one House of Assembly. It gave her Nlajesty power to make laws with the assent of the legisla ture, with the exception of such as were contrary to that Act, or those provisions of the Act of 1791 that were not repealed, or any Act of the Imperial Legislature. It gave the necessary power of appointing a Speaker, and the other materials for carrying on the legislature of that country, and provided that the united Legislative Assembly of Upper and Lower Canada should be represented by a total number of 84 members —42 from each province. Power was given to the Legislature to alter the system of representation and the qualification of voters as it. at present stood ; but it required the qualifica tion of those elected to the Legislative Assembly to the amount of 5001 It provided that a Session of Parliament be holden every year, and that the Legislative Assembly should be chosen every four years. It gave power to the Governor to appoint one or more Deputy-Governors, with the power of exercising all the authority of the Governor in those parts of the country in which they were established. The provisions relative to the Assembly and Colonial taxa tion were of the usual nature. The debts of the two c 010... ... - —.- nies were to be consolidated. A permaneht provi t i on w as n were surr en dered to be made for the Governor and other puhlic officers, de terminable }'cars, u n e r s i d o f a c t c h o e r d c i r n o g to the u sua l prac tice in consielcration of this clvil list. The revenue was to b e t t i c e r e m :h n e al h )l e e r i e ' d i fltav appropriated by the Legislature of the Provinces, subject to the most important rule, that no money grant was to originate in the Legislative Assembly except by the re commendation of the Crown. Of course there were ques tions of subordinate importance and of detail, but tha main question they had to determine was, whether or no they would assent to the reunion of the two Provinces. On this, however, bethought it would be necessary to say a few words, and first — , with respect to the consti tution of the Legislative Council, Their Lordzhips knew that this had been the great subject of discus- sion in this country for many years, and that it was, in fact, the great bone of contention. They might perhaps learn with some surprise that it was recommended that it should remain exactly as it was. and unquestionably it ap peared to him that decision was come to on sound princi ple—tbcre were many authorities on this subject. The Noble Viscount then read some extracts from Lord Dur: ham's despatches in support of that opinion, and also read some extracts from the despatches of Sir John Colborne, recommending the union of the two provinces. Governor Thompson was of the same opinion, and although he en tertained it when he went out, unless he found that it corresponded with the wishes of the colonists, he would not have felt himself bound by his former opinion, there- fore he ( Lord Melbourne) thought the authorities were very strong in favour of the measure which he thought might b-s submitted to their Lordships.---( Elear. ) The reasons for the union were uncommonly well summed up in the report of Lord Durham. Their Lordships could not allow things to remain as they were, either with reference to Lower Canada or with reference to this country. There was an impatience in the country and au impatience in the House of Commons that the ques tion should be settled. Their Lordships had passed a Bill for the. suspension of the Constitution of Lower Ca nada, and the [louse of Commons alio agreed to that Bill, but their Lordships had shown their dislike to that mea sure by clogging it with a restriction that ma d e it in- effectual for its purpose. He thought that a very unwise thing to do, and he so stated at the time, but of this he was quite certain, that neither Parliament nor the country would be content or satisfied who the continuance of the present state of affa!rs in Canada. The only course left to their Lordships to pursue was to accede to the proposition which had been made by the Governors of these provinces, and which was agreeable to the ma jority of the English there. That was the only course they could take to settle a question that absolutely pressed for settlement ; and it was necessary and essential they should come to a decision upon it. On these grounds, therefore, he called upon their Lordships to take it into their consideration, and if they adopted it he hoped and trusted they would lay the foundation for a wise, a li beral, an enlightened, and a free Government of these pro vinces.—( Cheers. ) The Duke of WELLINGTON felt great anxiety upon this measure, and therefore hoped their Lordships would indulge him with their patient attention for a short time while he made a few observations. The Noble Viscount stated it 'Was necessary and essential their Lordships should come to a decision upon this question. On that point he differed with the Noble Viscount. He contended the time had not arrived at which they could make that settlement with propriety. They had not got the better of the insurrection—they had not got the better of the temper that excited the insurrection in one province and rebellion in the other, and the desire in the neighbouring country to entourage both ; therefore, he contended, the time had not yet come at which they could with propriety proceed to a settlement of the question. The Govern ment ought to have taken further time to consider it before bringing the subject before Parliament. The Bill un doubtedly would require some further alteration in its details in Committee. He knew he had the misfortune to differ with many of their Lordships in that House, and with many persons in another place, for whose judgment he entertained the highest respect, but he had observed in this country for some time a growing desire to get rid of their North American dominions, and a desire that they should become republics. That desire prevailed among a very large class in this country ; but he contended that the country would sustain a great loss if separated from those provinces. It was for that reason he would warn Minis ters not to adopt the hrrangement proposed, if they were not perfectly certain, which he (the Duke of Wellington) was sure they were not, that it would work for the good government of the country. If they could not govern Canada, they would lose dominion over all North America. He had warned their Lordships six months ago that the insurrection was put down. Since that time still further accounts of disturbances on the frontier, and they had scceunts of the agitation everywhere, of the question of responsible local Government in the northern dominions. The Noble Duke then referred to the various despatches that had been sent out by the Government, and commented upon the inconsistency of the different ins'ructions given to the Governor. The conduct of the Government had tended to encourge the cry for local and responsible Govern ment. That feeling had even extended to Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward's I.land. The Noble Duke next complained that Ministers had not, tyon the propo sition of the union of the provinces, taken the opinions of those who, from their long residence, were well acquainted with the Canadas. Their Lordships had not before then the opinion of Sir Francis Head, nor the opinion of the Legislature of Upper Canada—that Legislature which in 1812 nobly defended the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada almost by their own resources, and without any assistance from Great Britain, against the aggression of the United States. lie entreated the Government to pause before they proceeded further into this measure, to take it fairly into their consideration, and to sue whether it was absolutely necessary to incur the risk that would be undertaken by the Bill. If they saw there was a risk, and bef :re he sat down he would show there was, then they ought not to adopt the measure. There were other alternatives which might be carried into execution, which would at least be safe, to enable them to secure, at all events, the Upper Province. If they secured the Upper Province they would the whole.—( Hear.) He begged to remind the Government that tiny were going to form a legislature of three or four dierent nations, and three or four different religions. He would now entreat their Lordships, if they went into committee on the Bill, to do so with a determination to weigh well the situation in which the question stood, and to con sider the suggestions which he had thrown out. If their Lordships and her Majesty's Ministers would take the responsibility of the measure upon themselves, in God's na ne let the ndo so. But, for his part, ace.ading to his present opinions, he could only say non content to this motion.._( H e ar, hear.) Lord GOSFO RD rose with considerable reluctance on the present occasion ; but he had no hesitation in saying that the present measure was a dangerous experiment. The notion, that the French Canadians were in a state of organization against this country was entirely fallacious. He believed that the people of Lower Canada were loyal and attached to this country. But by the present 13,11 that province was to be saddled with the large debt which was incurred by the other. 11: had lived amongst the people, and it was his honest and conscientious opinion that the great majority of then were opposed to this measure —( Hear. hear.) He believed that in the Upper Province. in consequence of a long series of mis government, there was great sympathy with the neigh bouring ; Republic, and a distaste for the Government of tnis country.--( Hear, hear.) There were many in that province who would be glad cf this measure, because it would infallibly provoke discontent. When he, said this, he did not say that a time might not arrive when the union of the two provinces would be desirable and safe. He thought that by a good, firm, an 1 impartial administr , tann of the Government, aceording to the 31st of Gco. I I 1., with same modifications, such a state of things would ho brought about. fie opposed the ineasuro because he thought it was dane;crous,iand that it was founded on mis representation and injustice. Lord ELLENBORO IT G II anTeel , antirely with every avoid that had been said by his N Fr,nd (he Duke of Wellington), and he was convinced that the tendency of the Bill would be to separate the Canadas from this country.—( Hear, hear, hear.) And yet, in what situation would that House be placed in rejecting the 8,11. In the House of Commons it had attracted very little attention 1 . '6 having voted in its fevour against 6. It was impossible, therefore, not to s that the maj , rity of the liffitse of ( - ;',n moos was in its favour. And t a; also supported by a majority of the [louse r f Assembly in Upper Canada, and by her Majesty's Government Yet if he thought i=s rejection now would be final, he would vote for ill a rejection, but lie was convinced that if it were rejected now, their Lordships would be compelled. however reluctantly, to concede to the determination of the House of C emmons and the [louse of Assembly. He was ()PPflq.d to the Bill on the grounds stated by the Noble Duke, and because he thought it The no st unjust and fraudulent that ever was brought befit Parlkineut Its object was not to give liberty to Lower Canada, but, under the pretence of liberty, to disfranchise the people of that province, and to place them under the Government of Upper Canada. It would punish perpetually a whole people for the offences committed by a few two cr three years ago.--.( Hear.) Ir. would do so by what Lord Dur ham characterised as an electoral fraud. Six counties containing 36 ono inhabitants in Uppi r Canada would re turn six Members to the United Legislature; whereas two coutvios containing- 30.00' French Canadians, would be united. and would return only one Member to the Leg.sla ture.— Hear.) Whatever had been the feu! t of the Lower Canatliaes it was the duty of the British Legislature to give them good government. Bat in the present state of feeling between the two Provinces whit justice or im partiality would they experience from a Government of Upper Canadians ?—( Hear.) In fact, if you desire to give good government to both the Provinces you roust govern them separately and under different forms. In Lower Canada you could not have trial by jury; unpaid magis trates, or munic-pal institutions. Allowing the inten tions of . the House of Assembly of tipper Canada to be the best pOssible, it was impossible that Lower Canada could have good government from that Assembly which was necessarily composed of merchants and professional men, who could not have statesmanlike views, and were not accustomed to a statesmanlike consideration of public ..... questions. In that Bill there was no provision made for the pure administration of justice. Give that to the Lower Canadians, and he would answer for their loyalty, their peace, and tranquillity.— ( Hear.) At the same time that he thought it would be fraudulent to substitute the Go vernment given by the Bill for the present despotic form, still he must admit, that in spite of all the frauds and tricks which men put upon the French Canadians, they must return up wards of three-fourths of the representa tives of the Lower Province, and it, Upper Canada, under the most favourable circumstances, after the dissolution by which Sir Francis Head saved Canada, the British in terest was able to return no more than three-fourths. There the effect of the Bill would be to give, in every Assembly, a majority against this country. I - I s only reas )n for assenting to this Bill going into Committee was, that if the Bill did not now pass it must ultimately be carried, land that might, perhaps, happen under less 'avourable circumstances. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that the speech of the Noble Baron was directed, not so much against the particular union which the Bill proposed to — effect, as Against the principle of all union, and of all adjustment in cases o' difficulty between different branches of the same country. The Noble Baron had undertaken to prove that Lower Canada would be defrauded by the Bill, and he bad supported that argument by referring to the dispropor tion of representation and population. Now he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) believed that the principle of proportioning representation to population was one which the Noble Baron would be the last to apply to the most im portant measure which that 'house had ever been called on to debate. Was the Noble Baron prepared to say, that in the case of the union with Ireland the principle ought to have been maintained ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Baron had proceeded to argue that those who were in the minority would have no influence in the Government to which they belonged.—( ar, hear.) Did not the Noble Baron know that it was the essential character of all representative Governments, a large minority, sub ject of course to what was called the tyranny of the ma jority, must ultimately make good their ground, ani establish their right to th it participation in the Govern ment to which they were entitled —(Hear, hear.) But the Noble Baron had contradicted himself. Having said that the people of Lower Canada would be defrauded by the Bill, and that it would be better they should remain under the despotism under which he proposed to leave them, for be proposed nothing else—( Hear, hear)—the Noble Baron showed that they would have se much weight in the House of Assembly, that it would be impossible for them not to obtain the just regard of the Governor and the Government at home.—( Hear, hear.) Although the Bill was not based upon the principle recog nized in the French Revolution, of making repro. sentation numerically proportionate to population. The Noble Baron had overlooked this important circum stance that in the one province the population Has sta tionary ; and in the other it was increasing at a most rapid rate, so much so that in some ten years hence the Noble B. ron would be obliged to readjust his system of numerical r epresentation.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Baron had said that the Bill passed through the House of Commons without sufficient attention, but the Noble Baron must know that the majority in favour of the Bill was really an evidence of the general opinion that it ought to pass, and that none of those who took a lead in the proceedings of that House opposed its progress directly or indirectly.—(Cheers.) The facts that the oc currences of late years had imposed upon Government and Parliament the duty of reconsidering the state of Canada, and the only House of Legislature which could at present express an opinion on the subject, had given its opinion in favour of the present Bill.--( Hear, hear.) That Province, as his Noble Friend had observed, had great internal resources. It was intersected by vast sheets of water, conveying on their bosom the wealth and com merce of the colony ; and as increased civilization and im provement would become visible in the Lower Province, k would be made a partaker in the advantages of such com munication. It was for the purpose of giving full effect to the development of that prosperity—by concentrating the life, and energies, and resources of the Province, and by centralising the -Government—leaving, at the same time, the local affairs of the country as much as possible in the hands of those who were best calculated to carry them into effect—interfering as little as possible with local prejudices and institutions, but inviting the co-operation of all in the general concerns and wants of the entire commu nity, and a substantial principle of resistance to the com mon enemy, that the present measure was framed. He trusted that, by the united councils and general co operation of all, the permanent prosperity of the entire colony would be secured. He would not go fur• thee into the details of the question. He could not allow that the question had not been already sufficiently die. cussed, because for the last two years the subject had been repeatedly brought before their Lordships, and various discussions had taken place as to the proper remedies to be applied. He could not agree with the statement that had been made that the House of Commons had neglected its duty. He thought the question came before them then supported by a greater amount of public opinion in its fa vour than at any previous time, and understanding that the Noble Duke did not mean to offer any opposition to the present motion, he was ready to say that a Committee would be prepared to make such arrangements and amend ments as would satisfy all parties. The Earl of RIPON said he intended to pursue the course of his Noble Friend the Duke of Wellington, by not opposing the present stage of the Bill. It appeared to him, however, that the measure was one the success of which was extremely questionable, and if it failed, as the Noble Baron had observed, the colonies were for ever lost to the British Crown. He should not occupy their Lord ships' time at present by entering into any detail of the many difficulties that were likely to intervene to prevent a union of the two provinces, but there appeared to him in the scheme an inherent vice, because it proceeded upon the principle of a permanent, distinction, engendering, irreeoncileabla national hatred between the two races in Canada, which would prevent them ever co-operating heartily for the prosperity of the colony. He feared that feeling would make the French population permanently discontented and disaffected towards the Government of the country. The proportion of representation, as regarded the English and French population, was one of the strongest features in the injustice with which the party had been treated by the p , oposed measure, and he feared that the union, being proposed upon such an erroneous and unjust basis, was in itself calculated to throw considerable doubt upon the ultimate success of the measure. If it were not for the prudential motives which influenced their Lordships in bringing it forward, he would never give his assent to the Bill, being convinced that it would alto '. gether fail of its object. The Duke of WELLINGTON explained. What he complained of was, that they had not the unbiassed opinion of the ancient legislature of Upper Canada upon the pro position of a union, many of the members and functionaries having resigned their offices. Ho did not mean to charge the Government with corruption, but the measure had been brought down to the Legislature cut and dry, and it was intimated to them that if they did not assent to it they must resign Lord A SHBURTON objected to colonies of such vast extent being governed by measures and despatches ema nating from Downing -street. If ever there was a ques tion in which Parliament would be anxious to set aside all considerations of party, he believed it was the present. It seemed to him, however, that the question was besot with many difficulties. Hardly any two Governors had come home with the same reports as to the state of the colonies, or the measures which were most likely to be effectual in remedying the grievances of which they com plained. The Noble Earl ( Gosford) had represented tho population of Lower Canada as a most amiable and interesting and peaceful people ; but he believed the Noble Earl stood almost alone in that opinion. The feel ing of nationality was, in Lord Durham's opinion, most inveterate among the French population. It ap. peered to him questionable whether they could devise any mca urea which would permanently preserve there colonies to Great Britain. He thought the objections that had been urged against the Bill extremely well founded, and it appeared to him that the people of the colony would never cease their agitation till they had got rid of Briti k lamination. The Noble Viscount who had opened the discussion, had r eferred to the conquests of England in former times, and be appeared to regret that they were not now able to rule Guietans, Gascony, and Bordeaux. But he thought that the good sense of the coot try would n.t go that length, and that it would with out much regret surrender many of their present posses sions, in the conviction that they had quite enough to do to govern themselves at home. The most judicious thing that could be done with regard to the Canadian provinces was to shake hands and part good friends with them,—to maintain friendly and commercial relations with them, but to disclaim all idea of sovereignty on the part of England. It was the idea of some that such a step wool I be attended with disho nor and with loss, but he thought everything depended upon their previous arrangements, so that they procured an ami cable settlement of all former differences, and part on friendly terms. They stood in a different relation to these colo nies, from that in which they stood as regarded the Ame rican S ate s, who were a compact and united people, reared up in the principles• of liberty and independence by the English reople themselves. The Canadas.ou the contrary were a disunited people. composed of various countries and he feared they would never be brought into a peaceable 1 and orderly obedience to the laws. Lord B ROUG I-1 AM said, although there would be many other opp etunitit sof discussing the measure, yet cs the present was the stave where it could most properly be considered, be would take the liberty of saying a few words. What he hail to say would refer to two views of the sub j?et : the first place, whether the measure was justified, —and in the next place, leaving the question of justice and expediency aside, what could be the consequences of the measure in future. In the fir t place, were they justified in in proposing such a measure, and their Lordships would pc cehe that he alluded to a question which had been very properly broached he some of their Lordships---.he meant the consent of parties to the measure. He held that they could not withdraw from that consideration. They had given the Canadians a constitution fifty years ago, and whether they then treated them as a conquered colony was wholly immaterial. Parliament having given them a Consteutien, they had eejoyed und• r the sanction of that Constitution, as two separate ..nd independent Colonies. the Parli tmentary Constitution for somewhere about half ato relay. They were now called upon by an Act of the Imperial Legislature, and as he should chow, without their consent, to abolish that Constitution, and to unite the two Colonies, whom it was the fundamental principle of the arrangement to keep separate, and to give se parate Constitutions and Legislatures to. The question was, had they their consent ? and first he would say that he was almost satisfied with the speech of the Noble Duke, who had demonstratively shown that they had not the consent of the people 6f Canada to the proposed measure., That question lay at the foundation of the Vtguineat of v4ether.they had the right to. propose swia a measure. He would briefly state a few circurn staocrs to prove that the assent had not, and could not be obtained. First, thr , y had been told to look to the Legis lative Councils. Admitting for the present that their consent indicated the consent of the people, they had not the consent of those Legislative Councils. Not twelve months ago, there had come over not an assent, but a dis- I sent from the Legislative Council of Upper Canada, and it was upon that express ground that his Noble Friend had answered his ( Lord Brougham's) objection to delay that measure. He would suppose that they had obtained their consent—but since when? Since the despatch of his Noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonial 11.- partment, indicating—not to ta.,e an offensive term—that measures would be adopted which would render it very in convenient if they determined to hold out, and which tended to produce a change in the opinions of a body which had previously dissented from the measure. These Legislative Councils were but the creatures of the Go vernment, and they had, therefore, but the consent of the authors of the measure, and their ministers, and their agents. Had they the assent of the Assemblies? It was said they bad the assent of that of Upper Canada, but since when? Twelve or fifteenmonths ago they were just as much against it as the Legislative Council, but certain charges had taken place since then. The Assembly would have expired in 1837, but, before that period had arrived, it had passed an Act continuing its existence beyond the period to which it was legally entitled, and then it was that the assent of the assembly had been obtained. Suopese, in the case of the Union with Scotland—a measure which no man now objected to—suppose the Union with Scotland had taken place ten years later—namely, in 1716, in stead of 1706, and that the Act of Uteion had been passed by a Parliament which had been prolonged for that purpose, he apprehended it would not have that weight and authority, or would have been regarded as the sense of the people of that country, as indicated by the representatives of the people in Parliament. assembled. Therefore on these grounds be attached much weight to the assent of the Assembly of Upper Canada, as indi cating the sentiments and speaking the sense of the people. But now with respect to Lower Canada, as his Noble Friend observed, they could only have the assent of Up. per Canada, the Constitution being suspended, and there being no Assembly in Lower Canada. The fact was, that an Act had b:en passed, by which the Assembly of Lower Canada was suspended and abrogated, and dud e ?, the season of its existence they took the measure now proposed for incorporating it with Upper Caned:. The question was, whether the people might not be ie, favour of it, although they had no otgan to repre sent them ; but his ( Lord Brougham's) answer was, why had not the people been convened, and their opinion taken ? If the Parliament of Lower Canada had not beenesuspended, and that the question of the union came before it, what would be their answer ? Would any man hesitate in saying that they would have been unanimously against the measure ? Before the last dissolution they were divided in the proportion of 70 to 18 against the union. An appeal was then made to the constituency, in order to ascertain what the feeling of the country was, and the returns showed a stll greater discrepancy, the numbers being 80 against the union, and 8 for it, or some where in that proportion. No man could doubt, if the As sembly were still in existence. they would have unanimously opposed it. Therefore taking it altogether there could not be the least doubt that the opinions and feelings of the people, by whatever means they were tried, must be taken to be against the measure. Having stated the objection he felt, ie point of principle, to the measure, at the present time under these circumstances, and during the suspension of the constitution, he had only now to say a word with respect to the future prospects which the measure opened to their view. It was said that there were to be 42 Re presentatives in each Province, and after the powerful speech of his Noble and Learned Friend he would say no thing as to the proposed constitution of the new Parlia ment, but he wished to call their attention to what appeared to be the inevitable consequence of attempting to amalga mate a heterogenous and irreconcileable mass. He pre sumed that the propottions for the representation of the English and French inhabitants would still continue in Lower Canada ; and when the forty-two representatives were added to the latter, their Lordships would see what a vast preponderating majority that class would possess. So great a majority being against the colonial connection, he thought it would be very difficult to continue it ; but it might be said that the distribution of the franchise was such that it would give a preponderance to one class over the other to which they were not entitled, either by their numbers or their wealth. But he would ask, was this a state of things likely to produce peace or satis faction ? ( Hear, hear.) Was it not more likely to shake the Government of the mother country and to peril the colonial connexion ? There was a third view which might be taken. It might be assumed that although there were two races in the same Assembly, yet all the representatives of Lower would not join with the minority of the representatives of Upper Canada, but that there would arise another question, that of French against English, and thit the representatives of bower Canada, who were in favour of British interests, would join with the majority of the representatives of Upper Canada. The result of this must be the splitting up of the Assembly into two parties, a French party and an English party ; and the French party would constitute the great majority of the Lower Province. The inevitable result of this must be the production of the most rankling party feeling in the Assembly itself ; and of a feeling of party ten times more rankling than even that in the Assembly itself among the French population inhabiting the Lower Province, which must produce the greatest risk and danger to the stability of the Colonial Government. Now, it might be naturally asked why he should feel such apprehension for the stability of a system, and the preservation of a connection which he freely owned, and which he hod frequently before stated that, for his own part, he set but little store by ?—( Hear, hear.) Differing widely, as he did, from many of their Lord ships on this subject, agreeing only with his Noble Friend whom he did not then see in his place, setting but little value upon that system of Government, or that connection, believing as he did that the disidvantages of it greatly preponderated ovar any advantages which it possessed, it might naturally be asked why he should deem it inex pedient to establish a system which seemed likely, at no distant period, to subvert that form of Government, and to sever that connection altogether? He deemed it inex pedient on this ground, because, in his opinion, all depended upon the manner in which that severance might take place, upon the events which might precede or accompany that sepaeation, upon what might be the public feelings on both sides of the water when that event should take pla ce, I which could not be long delayed. His apprehension was, that this measure would enable party spirit in both coun tries to produce its worst effects; that it would divide man against man, and race against race ; that it would lead to perpetual heartburnings between the colony and the mother country, and that in losing the colony we should not have one natural ally in it, but should find rather enemies than friends in those who had ceased to be subjects. On that ground he considered the present to be a most in expedient measure, and although other opportunities might occur of discussing the subject after the Bill had gone through Committee, yet he deemed it his duty now to state these objections while they were discussing the principle of the Bill, rather by way of protesting against than with any other view. He should not offer any opposition to the second reading further than stating the grounds of his opinion. As to any alteration that might be introduced into the Bill in Committee, he entertained but a feeble cx pectatation of any such being introduced as were likely to improve the Bill, although he should certainly do his citify by attending at all those discussions.—( Hear, hear, hear ) Viscount MELBOURNE thought that although it might be sometimes necessary to abstain from opposing a measure which was disapproved of, yet, in a measure of this sort, which depended principally upon the impression it was likely to produce, he could not understand how any one could characterize it in such language, and speak against it with such violence, without at once opposing its further progress.—( Hear.) The Noble Duke had said the time was not yet come to propose it, and, according to the NohleDuke's theory, they must wait, "ad Graecas Kalendas," for he had said that they should wait until they were certain of the working of the measure.—( Hear, hear.) He had not that connexion with the military glory of the country that the Noble Duke had, but yet he should feel as keenly as the Noble Duke could the disgrace which must accrue to the country from the less of those colonies. It would be a great and heavy blow inflicted on the honour and interest of this country. As to an amicable separation it would be impossible, because it would be said that we had given the colonies up because we were unable to keep them. The Noble Duke had said that the question of navigation of the St. Lawrence might be settled as the question of the navigation of the Meuse and the Rhine had been ; but was that question settled yet? The Noble Duke had nego tiated on that subject at the treaty of Vienna, but he be lieved it was not yet settled. The Noble Duke. said this measure had been proposed and rejected by the House of Commons on a former occasion, but Lower Canada had not been engaged in rebellion, nor had the constitution of that province been suspended, and he must say that suspension was most just.—( Hear,. hear.) The same observations would apply to the despatch of the Earl of Ripon, to which.the Noble Duke had alluded. The des patch as to responsible government was misunderstood by the Assembly. but not by the Governor or Attorney-Ge neral of any of the Colonies. Sir Colin Campbell, Sir J. Harvey, and all the Governors, had interpreted that dee:- patch truly. The Noble Duke said that they were com posing an Assembly of different cl,sses ; ho always thought that was the greet object of a As•etebiy, end the argurreeut as to difference of religion has a very strange one to make use of in the Parliament of this couetry, where Christians of all denominations had seats. His Noble and Learned Friend said that they had net even the consent of the Upper province, because the Assembly bad continued their own exi-tence. They had a right to do this or abstain from doing it as they might chooses; and it could not be contended that the Acts of Pediment of Geo. Ist, which had prolonged its own existence, were not as valid as the Acts of any other Parliament. Ile admitted that they had not the consent of the Lower Province, but that previously its conduct Is id placed it in such a condition tes rendered it ne e rssery tc legisl .to for it without adopting the course usual in other cases of union, although he must say, that the legislature of Scotland, and more particularly that of Ire land, eensenterl to the union under a much stroeger pres sure than, any that could he supposed tee be exercised on the Canadian Assembly by the dispatch of Lord J.elin Ruse ll,' —( Cheers and laughter.) He considered they had the consent of the Upper Province, and he thought, although it was impossible to say how it would work, yet he thought it would work well. As to the getesti en of the artatege ment of districts, and the objection made, that so many efeernee e r were eiven t • one couety, and only so mane to mother. he thought the reel gstest . .on was whether the dis tricts were not, on the whole, wisely arranged ; and he hoped they would take the measure into their tavoerable consideration, and not impede its progress by the charm:- ter which they gave of it. • The Duke of WELLINGTON said, in explanation, that whet he had meant to say was, that the measure was premature, because they had not yet got rid of the rebel lion in Canada. The Bill was then read a second time. The other Bills on the table were forwarded a stage ; and their Lordships adjourned tc, Thursday next ) at a (4 ear tee after _Ten o'Clock. EVENING EDITION. REGENT'S CANAL. TO THE EDITOR OR THE SUN. SIR,--At the late meeting of Proprietors of the Regent's Canal, a partial disclosure took place, which demands further explanation, as the letters which passed between the Secretary, the Auditors, and the Deputy-Chair man proves ; and it is to be hoped the Directors will candidly offer that information to the adjourned meet ing. If they de not they ought to resign, _far they contravene the Act of Parliament, - which requires that books shall be kept, wherein shall be entered minutes of all matters and transactions brought before them ; which book or bc.eks shall be open, at all reasonable times, to every Share:aolder. This was obviously in tended to prevent fraud ; and an omission in this instance, coupled with a refusal to snake known the facts, autho rises a suspicion that frau.' has been committed. There are other things which the Committee ought to explain and alter ; for instance, when an officer is accused he is not brought face to face before that Com mittee with the accused. Why .also is a tax still kept on, which is working great injury to the shareholders, when it has been proved that it was recommended by an officer who stated to the trade that it was imposed by the Committee, contrary to his opinion and advice? It is feared that there is much more wrong than the shareholders are aware of, or why refuse the Commit tee. which was asked for, to fully investigate the affairs of the Company, in connection with the revenue and ex penditure ? It is to be hoped a large number of Shareholders will attend, at two o'clock, Wednesday, July I (this day) I am, -Ste., A BROTHER SHAREHOLDER. COURVOISIER. We are.requested, upon the authority of the She. riffs, to state that the report circulated that Courvoisier mentioned to them that he had about his person at the time the police searched him ten sovereigns, which lie subsequently concealed in the flooring of the cell in 34s -street, is without foundatio 1. No such commu nication was made by him to them, and upon being questioned by Sheriff Evans on the subject yesterday, he positively denied ever having made any such state ment. The report that the murderer communicated such information to the Sheriff *has, in all probability, arisen from the fact, that he mentioned to Mr. Cope, the Governor of Newgate,in a very recent conversation, that he had about him at the time he was in the Bow street cell ten sovereigns, which he had deposited be- • tween double stockings which he wore when he was locked up in that place of confinement, and that he had taken an opportunity to throw them down the privy attached to the cell. The Governor, upon being in formed of the circumstance, considered it to be his duty to go to Bow-street Office. The cell was ex amined minutely at his request. The privy, howeier, in consequence of some difficulty, has not been searched. Indeed, the statement is considered to be as false as many other assertions made by the murderer. Sheriff. Evans, in fact, gives credit to nothing that has been said by the wretch, except the brief acknowledgment that lie had committed the murder with the knife, and that he had contemplated it a week before the perpetra tion. Curvoisier has contradicted himself a vast num ber of times in speaking of the details. The Sheriff requested that the public should be in formed that he could not possibly write answers to a twentieth part of the number of applications to him for admission to see Courvoisier and Oxford, and that they must be satisfied to receive an assurance through the press, that no one request of the kind could by any pos sibility be conceded. A fashionable pickpocket was arrested lately in front of Tortoni's, just as he abstracted a watch from the poc ket of a young Russian diplomatist. The mode of proceeding adopted by this industriel, who was always dressed in the first style of fashion, was to tread on the toes of his victim, beg his pardon amid a thousand salutations and excuses, and, at the same time, to relieve him of his superfluous cash or jewellery. On search being made at the man's lodgings there were found articles enough to stock a shop. THE SHIP " InoNsIDE."---This iron sailing ship, commanded by Captain Mitchell, completed her third voyage across the Atlar.tic (to South America, and lait to Texas) and back, on the 17th instant, and with such success as to establish the fact of the applicability of the sterner metal as a substitute for timber in the construction of ocean-going vessels. The Ironside brought a cargo of cotton from Galves ton Bay, consisting of 665 bales, of which 65 were on deck, and she landed all in good order. The ship did not make any water during the voyage, and, while her bottom remained clean, made good occasionally from nine to nine and a half knots an hour. It is remarkable that she had no ballast in, yet was quite stiff, notwithstanding her deck load. Wooden vessels gene rally require about one-third of their cargo to be in ballast or heavy goods. The Ir-onside has made, weather considered, fair average passages. She is a remarkably fine vessel, and has tended to establish in ships as in warfare great faith in " cold iron."—Liverpool Standard. MIRACULOUS ESCAPE OF THE LION KING. —Mr. Carter, the Lion King, had a most miraculous escape at Astley's Theatre, under the following circumstances :—ln the course of his performance Mr. Carter drives his lion in a car across a very high platform. (intended to represent. a rocky mountain) and, on reaching the middle, the whole fell over one to the stage, with a most tremendous crash. The performers flew in every direction, while the audience were no less terri fied. Mr. Carter, in his descent, with an extraordinary pre sence of mind, sprang out of the car, and very fortunately suc ceeded in securing the lion, mho, it is said, is very severely injured. The accident occurred from the want of a barrier being placed at each side of the platform. Mr. Carter is not much hurt. It was rumoured throughout the metropolis, yes terday, that the lion escaped from the car, and jumped into the pit; but the above is the true state of fact:. The ques tion of the propriety of exhibiting wild beasts at all in a theatre has often been the subject of conversation, and the truly provi dential escape of Mr. Carter,.the performer, an the audience, on Saturday night, will, it is hoped, be a caution for the future. SHOCKING ACCIDENT.—As Mr. M. Davis, the junior partner of the firm of Davis, Brothers, opticians• No. 33, New Bond-street, was proceeding to town in his gig, when passing Camden-road villas, the horse began to kick and became obstreporous, and threw him out. Two gentlemen, in a very humane manner, residing on the spot, Messrs. Atkins and Brignable, conveyed him to a surgeon, were his wounds were dressed, and from there proceeded with him in a carriage to his private-residence at Islington. We are glad to learn that it will not prove fatal. GOLD WATCHES.—A variety of excellent and carefully finished Second-hand Gold Watches, many - of them in accordance with the latest taste, with. Gold Dials, Jewelled , &c., are offered for selection, price Eight Guiceas each, printed warranty will be given. At T. COi 3AVORY'S, Watchmaker, Gold and iqlvermith, 47, Cernhill (Seven doors from Graco_hd:ch-street), London. N.B.Second-band Watches purchased in exchange. IRTHS. On the 19th ult., at Mount Vernon, Hampstead, the lady of Thomas Hog, Esq., of a daughter. On the 26th ult., at Esher, the lady of George Hayes, Esq., barrister, of a daughter. On the 29th ult., in Curzon-street, the Lady Ernest Bruce, of a son. On the 27t h ult., at Woolwich-common, the lady of the Re" Capel Molyneux, of a daughter. tOn the 30th ult., at Fowkes-buildings, Great Tower-street Mrs. Sidney J. Phillips, of a son. On the 30th ult., Mrs. John Bailey, of Woburn-square, of * de ughter. On the 28th ult., at Upper Seymour-street, Portman-squaree the lady of Captain H. Wilson, of a son. 11ARRIED On the 27th ult., at the Collegiate Church, Wolverha nptoVo Robert Hook, Esq., second son of the late Dean of Woroestcr to Katharine, widow of Major-General Sir F. Cooke, K. G. Ho of Harefield-park, Middlesex.' On the 30th ult., at St. George's, Hanover-square, Cow' mander Alexander L. Montgomery, R.N., second son of tee late Sir Henry C. Montgomery, Bart., to Caroline Rose, daughter of James Campbell, Esq., of Ha npton Court. At Southsea, the Rev. Arthur Willis, Head Master of :Lud' low school, to Marianne, widow of Capt tin Serjeantson, 400 1 Regiment. DIED. On the 28th ult„ at River Hill, near Sevenoaks, Laura Buckley, aged 10. Caroline, wife of Scholes Birch, Esq., of Manchester, and of Stonydale, Westmorland. • • On the 29th ult., at St. Leonard's-on-Sea, Sir John Hawker English, K. G, V., of Warley House, Essex, aged 53. At Goulden-terrace, Islington, the wife of Lieut. Jame Lash, R.N. MONTHLY MILITARY OBITUARY. Generals.—Sir Henry Pigot, G.C.M.G., Col. of 38th London; Sir John Oswald, G. C. 8., G.C. M. G., Col. 0 ' 35th Foot. Lieut.-Generals.—Hon. Sir R. W. O'Callaghan, G.C.1 3 . Col. of 39th F , London ; von der Dacken, h. p. Ger. Leg. ; Dighton, E. I. Comp. Service, Gloucester . Major-Generals.—Sir T. Anburey, Com?' Serv., India; Henry Faithful, E. 1. Comp. Serv., Dum Don' Bengal ; Kinnersley, E. 1. Comp. Serv., Bombay. Majors.—Armstrong, 45th F., Monmouth; W. Cubitt, I. Cutup. Serv., Calcutta. Captains. - Rowley, 10th Drag., Coventry ; Fauquier i late of R. Art., Exeter; Donald Macpherson, Unat. Lieutenant s.—Collinson, 64th F., Jamaica; Duff, 68th F., Jamaica; Doxat,6oth F., Windlesham, Surrey; E. younl , h. p. 60th F. ; Pook, h. p. 61st F. ; Enzinger, late Bth B. Vet. Batt., Neimberg • Nicoll, Barrack blaster at Gurrose_y. Ensigns.—Foote, p. 47th F. ; Fosbrooke, h. p. 2d F'r°' Batt. of Militia; D'Atigelo, h. p. Sicilian Reg:, Zante.! Quartermaster.—Nickson, h. p. ht Drag. Gds., Lancaster' Medical Department.—Sag. Reid, 50th F. ; Surgeon Griev, , , h. p. 77th F., Abergavcnny ; Assist.-Sorg. Marshall , 7th Dragoon Guards, Edinburgh. QUARTERLY NAVAL OBITUARY. Flag Otlicers.—Admiral Sir W. Sidney Smith, G.C.Th' Rear-Admiral Henry Stuart, Rear-Admiral William Rickets Ret. Captains.—Matthew Smith (a), Ret. ; George Andrews, John Thom?son (b), Frederick Hickey, Alexander Vicar' John Baldwin, Sir Thomas Carew, Knight, William Boi nett. Commanders.—Henry Taylor, Richard Griffith, Thorn° Baker, R. Waller Otway, S. S. Hemming, Ret. ; George Porter, Ret. ; James Blandford, Ret. ; T. Beaumont, .Ret. Lieutenants.—James Stone (a), C. S. Delancey, Williams Sturgeas, Samuel Heron, Thomas MoAler, Henry gankeY , Isaac Richards, Henry M. Leake, Andrew Brown, Edward )(amid, Edwin Wise, Samuel Fowell. Masters.—James Dunbar, Josiah Oake, Luke Brokensha. Surgeons.—Wade Shields, John Morgan (a), W. Llewellyn' Archibald Ferguson, James Jackson. Assistant- Surgeon's.— Al ichael Brown, Robert Brown, M. D'' William Brown, M.D., 1). J. R. Robinson. Pursers.—Edward nicker, Samuel D. Webb, Luke StnYtl i ' Daniel Long, George Wallis. Royal I\l anises.—Colonel Thomas Abernethie, Bre vet : Major B. W. APGibbon, Captain Charles O'Bryen, First Lieutenant John Fraser. London : Printed and Published iw AIURDO YOUNG', of No. 112, Strand, at. The Snit (Alm, NP. 112, Strand, in the county of Middlesex.—Weilnestlaf, July 1, 1840. A' TARE Exete r His H( then ereas Rrivi 1 3' ea Cliri 2. C sent Beer for 4. I 1 by I That up° qui Ind hei