The Sun. — London, England, 1817-07-01 00:00:00

P A R.L-I AMEN T. WiTTSE'OE LORDS, MowtmY, lugs 30. 'irittoSvENotit presented a Vetition 'from cer lain Ind'. idnals against Machi►►ery. His Lord, ship stated -his diffeer'nee of . opinion with the Pe tiiioners, Observing, that, were it oat for Machi !wry, those persons who were now 'employed-, ~would be unable ro obtain work. The Earl of LAUDERDALE also depreented a cry trg3inst Machinery, observing, that (bete was no in,nt in Ergland who knew any thing upon the subject, who was not fully convinced, tkiat per 7sou.s seeking the destruction or abolition of Ma chincry, were welting their own utter and en- Aire ruin. The l'etitiem' was.ordered to lie on the Table. The 'Ail.` l ""Y "fi'd Naval O'4ths' Bill was read a second time , mi and oeatted for to-mot-low. Irish Slitrills 4 Bill, and the Clerks of the Peace Fees' Bill, PRksed through Committees, and were reported without -Amendment. The further consideration of the Saving Baulie Bill was .pustponed till to-morrow. HABEAS CORPUS -SUSPENSTON. 'the Ordtr of the Day Ravin;; been read for taking into-coNsideration the Ainendineht made 'by tl►e 114:use of Commons hi the Habeas Corpus -Suspension Bill,. and also the chief Amendment, limi►ing the duraiion of the Bill to the Ist March, ISt The Earl of LIVERPOOL obserVed, it bad been thought more advisable, in the House of Cont thous, to fix a . determinate time for t.he_expiration of this Bill; than to leave it dependent upon coo lin2encirs contKe;ed with the meeting of Parlia went. Hail the atnendmeot, however, materially . shuitcned Ihe time,.he should have felt-it his duty to oppose it but us in the w#y the 13111 originally, at% tould not have continued longer than .ut the :middle of March, or from thence April, he did not see any reason. for.ob• jectkog 10 aht defioire period of the Ist of March I . fteret)re trlOVed to agree to the amendment Tbc Nlaiquis tai LANsnowNs said, he did no mean now 10 renew the discusSion upon this sub ject, trusting that the causes of discontent would ere long he removed, by there bt'ing a greater de mand of lahout, and by the beneficial consequences _of a favors able harvest: it was in this view that be thought it was at all events entirely tinneces- saty to continue this Bill for so long a period, and he should therefore move, in order to record his opinion, to insert the 3lst December next, .•iustrad of thelst 01 March, ISIB. 'flae Earl of DoNtitiGtimoßE con6idered this ute,isnre an evil, .and should therefore vote for .givity, it the shorter doratioo moved for by his N,,hle Friend. He trusted, however, as the goes ' tine n.,vr brio' e the tiouse involved the considera, tin Of the manner in which the extraordinary powers entrusted to the Government had been .'exerciAed, that some infOrin.tiion would he afford, ed upon certah4oints connected with the subicet, and that some pledge wo u ld be given of its being • intended! to execute these powers With humanity . and mildness towards the unfortunate individuals xv:lo might bL•come the objects of it. A case lately been publicly mentioned of which their Lors;ships could not be ignorant, that of two in di••:ithials. father and son, of the. name of !!,vans, ho had been arrested by the yr wont of the No•- • Socretary.of Stare, and conveyed to the gaol Sqrrey, where it was stated they w ere c l ose ly confitied in dungeons, without the magistrates . heipa allowed to visit them ; that they had been . heavily ironed, and that they had been. deprived of the inc.ins of petitioning the other House of Parliament with rtgard to their situation. He did i;ot irt.a:A. to charge this upon the Noble Sc- Cllstary of State, hut it appeared to have resulted iron' the acts of those o; l .iciating under him. What . offeiii..e the two iudividioils alluded to had com miocd he li:io!.tv not, hilt it svould surely not be ro g ,ed that any intliret scary harshness or severity ought to be used towards them ; and it was the mote iocunthent to obtain some ple!;ge as to the future exercise of the powers given by this flea. sure, duriog, the recess of Parliameut unfortu nate i n di v id ua l s imprisoned under the exercise of !hose pit veN, would have no means of giving publicity to their complamts. Luid Vi Count SIDMOUTH said, if it was re rpired of him to give a pledge of a conduct dif tt tort fruit) I bat which lie had hitherto adopted, it utterly impossible. No orders for any intim , cessary harshness or severity had ever been issued by him With regard to the case of the two Evans's, tl,e Noble Lord had been grossly imposed . upon. He (Lord Sidtnouth), in consequence of the statements made regarding these individuals, had sent for the tiaoler of ilorseoionger-lane, who had a . tended him that morning, when it clearly appe:tred, that the whole of what bad been stated was a misrepresentation. So tar from these indi -enfolds being confined in dungeons, they were placed in two light, airy rooms, 25 feet by 18,. where they had kvery indulgence allowed them that was consistent 'with their situation. As to their being prevented trim) petitioning Parlia :rneor, thi s was also untrue. !lad obstruc tion been thrown iii tlre way of their petitioning by the Gaoler, the latter, so far as depended upon hint (Lord Sidtnouth), should not have remained tin hour longer in that situation. The tact, how ever, was directly the reverse. No obstruction whatever been thrown in the way—they had all the means of petitioning; mid it appeared by a certi ficate produced at his (Lord Sidmouth's) office by '7rlr. Harmer, that the petition, which, it was al leged ;hese individuals had bees prevented from forwailing, had actually been preseated to the }louse of Commons by Mr. Bennett in February last. Recently Mr. Harmer, before alluded to, a -very respectable Agent, called at his (Lord Sid mouth's) office, to request permissioa to be ad ',bitted to the Evans's, ui orckr to engross a peti titm for them to be presented to the House of Commons. Permission was immedkirely given, mud the petition having been engrmsed, was pre sented to the Lioose of Commons on Friday last. Thus it appeared that the Noble Lord had been impos e d upo n from some quarter by a grOSSi mis representation, With regard to the statement (tat had gone abroad, that the visiting Illagis tral..s were not allowed to see prisoners confined the powers given by this act, it was alto gether outrtic.—Wkat Some Of the Lierloshire Ma- gi•trates generally had a right to visit thesc-pri souers-? This he had negatived ; but the Visiting Magistrates had still the sante 'right they had be fore •of visiting these firisoners. In all cases, also, where he found himself undertlreunfortunate neecs gity of cotnmittitig an individual, so far fromt here being any obstruction in the way of petitioning, he always informed such individual, that if he wished to petition the Sovereign,,or either House of 'Parliament, every means of doing so would be afforded him. ~Earl GROSVENOR observed it.-Was impossible to suppose that the Noble Visconnt would subject individualS committed under the clreuinstances stated to any unnecessary harshness or severity, but through this undoubtedly applied to the-Noble Viscount personally', it might not he applicable to ,some of those employed under him. lie . confd not help observing, however, that the Noble Se cretary of State had not answered one point :ot charge regarding the treatment of the Evans'S . . namely, that respecting their having been put in irons, and which he thought was an allegation ma terial to he replied to.. With regard to the Bill, he should support the Amendment moves' by his. Nobie Friend, hot lie did not intend to go over,agam the grounds of opposition to the measure itself. Ht• could not help, however, adverting to the employ ment of spies and informers which he considered as highly disgraceful to the Government who thus employed men in the first instance to lie, and.of whom nothing else could be expected, than that they would lie ever after,wards ; thonght, upon this point, that the conduct. of the Nohle lltike (Bedford), wlwn Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (as mentioned in the debate of a former night) in re jecting the testimony of spies and informers was highly worthy of imitation. Lord NONTFOrrr rose to hear testimony, -as a. Magistrate• for Surrey, to the humanity of the Gaoler. of Horsemonger-lane, whom he consider ed ,also as a- well-tempered and well-disposed individual. • Lot d Viscount St nmouTH complimented the Noble Lord for the liberal and csmiid. opinion he had given respecting Eh,. Gaol , r of Horsemonger lane, and .which was also a just one. re gard to the Evans!s having been lint in irons, the fact was this; On their being the gaoler, considering theta in the s:one point of view' as persons committed on similar charges, though not under similar circumstances, bad in coutormii y with the established relit's, of the prison, put irons on them. Upon iris (Liird Sidmonili's) being informed of the circumstance, he notnediitelv issOetl orders for their irons to he taken off, which Orders were executed within an hour after they were issued. Lord REDEsoALE made some observations upon an expression of Lord Grosvenor's, respecting the Duke of Bedford's government of Irehnd, and contended that spies and informers ought to be attended to, in ort:er to obtain information. Had these persons been more attended to by the Go vet•nment preceding that of the Duke of . Bedford in Ireland, he thought the life of his highly esteemed friend, Lord liil‘%arden, n►ight still hr►ve been preserved; and it was owing to the want•of that information that lie (Lord Redesdale) was very near. being made prisoner for the purpose of bcin kept as an hostage by the insurgents. Earl Gitosve NOR said, i►e had not instituted any comparison between the Government sit the D,►ke of Bedford and the preceding Government in Ireland. The Earl of RoS&LYN deprecated the introduc tion of topics from former deh.<< es. Lord REPEsnALK nitsititained, that the allusion to a former debate had been tit ht made by a Noble Earl (Grosvenor). The Amendment moved by the Marquis of Lans downe was put and - negatived, and the Amendment made by the fion.ft. of Common! was agreed to, and a Message ordered to be sent to them, stating that their Lordships concurred in the Amendment. SINECURE ApourioN, AND OFFICIAL REGULATION BILLS. The Earl of LIVENPOOL moved the Order of the Day respecting these measures. The Marquis of LANsnowt4e, before entering upon the discussion of these Bills, wished to be formed upon sonic paints connected with the sub ject. The Bilis were rounded upon the Reports of a Committee of the House of Commons ; but it appeared, that the whole number of offices re commended in those Reports to be abolished, were not included in theSe Bills. He %visited for some explanation upon this poiot, and also %elth regard to the term existing interests, used with respect to some of the offices ; he %visited to know what was precisely meant by those words. Ile was also desirous of being informed with respect to the pensions to be granted by the Crown to persons having held certain offices, whether in case any such persons already held a pension, the latter pension was to revert to the Crown or %VAS to be disposable by giving it to some one else ? The .Earl of LtsrEaPoot. (with, regirtti to the offices' alluded to by the Noble Mafqiiii,' as men tioned in the Reports,' but not inelnded in the Bills,) observed, that it did nut hollow that be cause they were so mentioned in the Reports, that therefore the House of Commons was to act exactly according to the suggestions of the Re ports. The facts were, however, that with re spect to some of the otfices there were difficulties in the way which could not be arranged in time to allow cif these offices: being legi s lated upon in the present Session of Parliament. 'This was the case with regaril to the office of Lord Justice '.General of Scotland ; also with respect to the office of Clerk of the Parliaments, • regarding which some proposition ought to originate in some way in that Mouse ; the same observation as to the impracticability of legislatirtg, this Ses sion, likewise applied to several offices in Ireland. With regard to the term existing interests, it was applied in order to save time interests Of those who wet eiu possession of the offices. As to the Pen sions, if an individu a l pr e yi uns ly held a pension, and became entitled to miennder the Compensa tion Bill, the former would merge in the latter.. • The Marquis of LArtsnowt4a, 'thought some fur ther explanation necessary, regarding the term . existing interests, as it appeared to him to be used in these Bids in R diqinet sense train vested inte rests, and that it was the first time Parliatueot had been coiled upon to allow existing interests, to stand Way DI UR! reglii ton ca un - ces, wilen these interests merely arose from au appointment during pleasure. The Ertrl of LiirkßPool. said, there was no question as to the cotipetenteerf Parliament, the case was merely this, that it bad been thought fit, tinder special . ciTcunistatices, to make all ex ception in favour of ekistjtig interests. The LoRD CHAFICELLOR said, that hi some in stances in these Dills, Ficisjirig interests were not sufficiently guarded, at least those interests which would be existing after those immediately sub• sisting. . • The Earl of LtYcdPooi;theit proceeded to enter upoi) the qu'estion that the House Should go into a Committee, beginning with one of the Bills then on the table. - He should however treat the subject generally. He should begin_hy sheaving the difference between the present measure which he supported, and the former Abolition Bills, which he opposed. The Bills brought up at dif ferent times were in principle objectionable. • They included all sinecures in one sweeping Bill, without explaining what they meant by sinecure, arid joined with those offices others of a most important , and even judicial charaCter. The former Bills were.full of absurdities. The President of the Council was joined with the Auditor of the Exchequer, and the Keeper of the Great Seal with ,the Clerk of the Pells. In the Bilis before their - Lordships these incongruities were aVoided, and they were so framed that the Crown hail effectual means provided fur it to re ward tiuhlic service. It w a s said, that it would affect the aristocracy. The fact was, that a womid to any branch ot the State under our ,Consitinion was felt by the whole but it appeared to him that I it would affect the democrati-', riot the aristocratic interests ot the country, if t he iilV3iiS of legitiMate influence were taken from the t`,rown. With out!' • this :node of rewarding -public service, such . men as Mr: Pelham (to only of the dead), Mr. George Grevdle, the t wo Mr. Pius, the ancestors of two Nolk.- Barons not then in their places,, and his late lamented friend, Mr. Pcreeyal,, would probably never have been enabled to devote their talents to the service of the State. In this country the emoluments of the higher offices Were not equal to the necessary expenditure. He could give, as an example, tire situation filled by him self. He should strongly condemn a provision. for public service by the vote of Parlia m ent, e v en : fur its profusenes s. The extent there 'wrnitl be' unlimited, and . lead 'front personal motives and individual importunity to incalculable abuse. It would be impossible to tie the-hands of Parliament, whereas, by leavin;., the disposal of rewards for public service to the Crown, the whole length to which it was possible to go was distinctly marked out, and exercised by Ministers tinder their cffi cial responsibility. It, a a's a great mistake to sup pose that the Exchequer offices were•.sinucures. They were offices of account and controul, and therefore unfit to be held by political persons. By the regulations in the measure which he proposed, these offices would be put on the proper footing. The truth of this was clear_ from the fact of Lord Grenville having been at the same time Auditor of the Exchequer and First Lord of the Trefeanry, the former of which was intended to be a column] upon the latter. Another strong . reason for this change was thegreat prejadiceagainst those offices, though those who possessed them had been most liberal and public spirited: Whilst these 'advan tages were gained there was no invasion of the salutary. rights of the Crown. His, object was, that the Crown should reward public service by pensions, where it had hitherto done that by the grant of offices. The public would be a great gainer by this mode, rather than by Parliament ary grant, even in this respect—that a general regulation of 3000/.. a' year to•all those who filled certain offices, would include even those whose private tortmles did not require it ; whereas the Crown would confer a pension with a regard to the private income of the individual. It he were not fully satisfied ot the utility of this measure in every respect, he should be the last person togive it hiS support. His Lordship concluded by mov ing, that the House should resolve into a Com mittee. On the Noble Earl's sitting clown the LORD CHANCII,LOR rose and atiltiaiiited the House, that be had received his Majesty's Contn►ission for de claring the Royal Assent to certain Bills which had pa s sed both [louses of Parliament, and Which was held adviseable to carry into immediate effect. Shortly after the Nable arid Learned Lord, with the Earls of 11AattowNY and SHAFTESBUWY, being robed, took their seats as his Maje•sty's Commissioners on the Bench, in front of the 'Throne, and the Commons attending, the Royal Ascent was declared to the Post 1.-lories Duty Bill, the SuTension Continuance, the American Trade, the Militia Officers, the Zrish forfeited Re cognizances, and to one private Bill. After the Commons had withdrawn, the debate on it he •above-tnentiooeil Bali was iortikvith re- Tire Earl of LAUDERDALE was surprised that the Noble Earl should uow support what in 1812, 1813, and 1814 be had opposed. It was said by the Noble Earl that they were different. The eport of the Commons, in its second paragraph, said the measures now and then were the saute.— ' (Hear, hear !)—The se otlires were as unfit fur political men in 1812 as now,anclas to any odium, did the Noble Earl look to the odium cast up on them by the Meeting in Spa-fields. He now looked hack with pain to the support he gave Mr. Bmke's Bills, one effect of which was, send-• ing a large mass of the landed interest from the other into that. House, and thereby changin l ; the Constitution. The fair influence of the Crown was diminished, and its injurious influence in creased. By depriving . the Crown of twenty-two principal appointments, these Bills gave it ninety n e interior appointments, which from fortune and condition were more liable to absolute con troul. The real secret of this Bill was, that it came from a party in tl,e Howe of Commons which had a sort of neutral character, a very .re spectable party he believed. That party now wished to slide into a little popularity, and this measure had been yielded to them for their support on other questions. The Emil of ilattnciwialt supported the measures vance 118 r b; le nn similar grounds "to those ar Friend who opened the discussion, Lord REDESDALE urged a variety of objections to the proposed measures, and pointedly urged that of their going to lodge in other hadds a patronage which had been so long constitutionally exercised by the thoivn. Earl GROSVENOR approved of any measure tend in to the abolition of sinecures; but to what was called the Compensation Bill, he was decidedly op posed. He also seemed to condemn an incon sistency which urged suclvneasures as the present, which it rejected almost with scorn on a former occasion. Lord ARDEN deprecated tl►e adoption of the proposed measures, principally on the ground of their tending to diminish a patronage which had been for centuries salutarily exercised by the So vereign. The Loan CI4AELLOR generally supported the Bills ; and in reference to what had fallen from a Noble Earl, observed that he had actually pre served one of the Bills alluded to by him (as re jected with scorn on a former occasion), as a Le zislativc curiosity ; for any thing more absurd, in the shape,ot an. Act of Parliament, be had ne ver seen. Lord ERSKINE opposed' the measures, chiefly on the grounds of their diminishing the constitu tional influence of the Croifn. Earl BATHURST, in support of the measures, answered the artnnents of the Noble Lords op- Posite, and expressed his surprise at any attcomt which seemed to regard the reslionsibilifyof Mi misters as dis: inct from the constitutional power of the' Crown. 'flee Qaestion being called for, elle lloiese di- ir'ilie(t--... Con ttnts c, 7 Not-Contents Majority fur going Lao a Colutnitt, e , Their Lordships' then resolved into Committeel on severat Bilk, and the samee-being gone Ibrougb. the Hmise adjourned till to-morrow. [For the Proceedings in the ; Flom of Corittnoo; see PRICE•O, THIS DAY AT TV Bank Stork, 27 4. 3 per Cent. Red...... 751411 8 per Cent. C0n5........ shut 4 per Cents (144 i 5 per. Cent. Navy Ann... shut I-111411 WATER AT LONDON. BRIDGE. Vo...monnovr , Morning, 2i; minutes after 5. Evening, 51 minutes:titer 1• THE SUN. 110 LEM QUIS DIC.E J FALSUM AUDEAT LONDON, TUESDAY, JULY 1, 1817. The following Letter, received this morning, from a quarter of the highest respectability, gives some important details from the Netherlands : `,` Ostend, June 49• " The disturbances in different parts of this country appear to have proceeded principally from the extreme distress which prevails, owing to the exorbitant prices of the necessaries of life, and the idea that they were kept up by speculators. The fermentation appears to have extended to the whole of the Southern Provinces, and has beets most serious at Namur, Mons, Ghent, and emir' tray. but has now in great measure subsidcti•—' Considerable quantities of Rye, bought up by the Government, have been conveyed to the pikes where the greatest distress prevailed, and sold at 15 florins the hectolitre (about 63 shillings the English quarter), being a reduction of more than one half. In the last market at Forties, Rye sold at 25 florins the hectolitre, or 5 guineas the English quarter. .!1) Ghent and some other places it was as high as 28 florins, or about Si. 10s. the quarter. The prices are, however, now ra pidly falling." ' THE SUSPENSION BILL, which, maugre all the virulent clamours of Opposition, is not, as they alledge, to abridge the Liberties of . the Peopl e , but to secure them, and preserve the Empire front revolutionary horrors, anti consequent subversion, was at length, as mantled by the House of Com mons, passed into a law last night in the House of Lords, receiving the Royal Assent. No divi sion took place, because the necessity of the mea sure is so apparent, and the general opinion so strongly in its favour, that further opposition would not only have been nugatory, but really ridiculous, Its duration extends . to the first of March, and even the opponents of Government were obliged to admit, that this definite limita tion reflects credit on Government, since it spews that Ministers would not expose themselves to any suspicion that they might render the continu ance of the measure dependent on their own dis cretion, by the assembling of Parliament sooner or later, •n account of tbeAct in (potion. Thus, the Last Pagel THEATRICAL REGISTER.. Performed Lost Nig it. COVENT-nAßtiEN.—Rorneo and Julie`; Romeo, Mr. C. Kcal-. He; Juliet, Miss Aff - er which, The Libertine. NEW THESTREROYAL, ENOttill OrraA-Housit.—My Uncle; Principal Cliaractei's, Mr. II:tr:ley and M rs . pi non tt, After .which, Two Words; and Don Juan. MAILS Artatvrti:—lßa'Oe, 1 MaTiflers, T tloTlapd, i Gnernsel 30 1 1 Jersev, i I Waterford: liruz . —t Lisbon; I Gotten.; Lulli . +, I liahulAirgh, F STOCKS w k:LVE O'C LOCK. Bank L. Ann..... 195 9-tears hidia4onds,loos.9Bs. 100s.pr. Exch. Bills,. ss. 13s. pr. Cum. fur Accounty...-•7Ciii