The Sun. — London, England, 1847-11-24 00:00:00

A (sotild reckon nearly 100 commercial establishments in Lond on and Liverpool vahieh lied been affected by it. They had been charged with overtradiug and imprudent s peculations. There certainly was one class whose !peculatiena, although prudent at the time, had become Imprudent from the acts of the Government—he meant those persons aho had advanced their money on West I ndian property—(Hear, hear)—and who had by the Present Government been deprived of labour at any r easouable rate. He knew many instances in which the agents had drawn on the proprietors at home, If the hill s h a d not b een ta k en up.—(Dear, hear.) 9 a man had a canital of 10,0001 or 20,000/. he might le gitimately be doing a business of three times that a mount by the aid o f cre dit. All the manufactu!es, and the whole trade of the country from one end cf it to the ( Oar, were carried on upon that plan—(Hear, hear) — "d if they were to say that persons who acted on that Principl e were over-traders, and d eserve d no sy mpathy or pity, they would destroy, as they had in fact already destroyed, the great portion cf the commerce of this country; for, as commerce must be carried on upon ca- Pital and credit, the credit had been entirely withdrawn, the rate of interest demanded amounting to a suspension of credit altogether.—(.Hear, hear.) Wat had been the experience of the country with reference to the Bank Charter Act? At one period, he believed, the rate of interest had been down as low as 3 or even 21 per cent., and then all at once it had run up to a sum which had caused a total exclusion of credit. If it was not the intention of the Government to institute an inquiry into the working of this Act— The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had not stated that the Government did not wish such an inquiry. Lord ASHBURTON maintained that if the Govern ment, did not intend to alter that Act they had called rarliament together to encounter a greater amount of "Popularity than any Ministry had ever yet had to contend with. He considered it most unwise to force the B an k to exact an interest o f 8 per cent . If a hi g h rate of interest, amounting to 8 or 10 per cent. were required, i t a ou ld a b sor b a ll th e profits of trade, and destroy their manufacturing and commercial prosperity, for manufactures and commerce would go to those coun tries where capital was cheaper. The Government re quired t h e Batik o get a minimum interest of 8 per cent. hn when mone y co uld be got els e wh e re at 5 per c e nt. 'I, Noble Lord opposite praised, and very properly, the Government fur issuing the order they did, but if they had done so sooner a great deal of mischief and ruin would have been avoided. That was proved from the general confidence which ensued upon the relaxation of the restriction. He apprehended that the corn-laws had a great deal to do with the distress. There was of course a necessity for importing corn to a large lir "oot, and the balance of trade turn e d aga i ns t them, but nut to any serious extent. The whole amount of bullion sent to America did not exceed 4,000,0001. or 5,000,000/., but the exchanges with the eontinent were in their favour. What great matter was illit that thi s amount was sent out of t h e country wh i le e Bank had 15,000,0001. or 16,000,000/. in its coffers. i l ie believed that, were it not for the Bank Restriction "et, they would have gone on without any panic what soever. &me Noble Lords were constantly in the b a abit o f r rookie ing the word free trade, and using it as (L Pa " - word fur everything vicious in legislation.— aughter.) Thee also talked of the benefits of cheap lie". Bat if they made things cheap by legislation, and the same time diminished the means of those who bore to purcha.se these cheap articles, he did not see the l?efit of it.—( f tear.) BPOUC HAM could not blame the Government a" or • * , call( d Parliament together at this very early spmost inconvenient period, seeing that they had aced them se l ves i n a pos i t i on wh i ch made i t poss ib le, a "o probabie, that a Bill of indemnity might be ne ecu-rasarY• tho Government thought it right to apply - - - n a l 'ich a Pill they would find no difficulty in getting it. tl,„ v : 4 , Pa r.) It was his own clear and deliberate opinion, to the earlier part of autumn sufficient pressure ai tr ted to require the interposition of the Government. t ri „ he saw th e e ff ec t s p ro d uce d on th e w h o le com itare of the country by th e acts o f the Bank itself, by dent e wer ing the rate of interest first, and afterwards sud rt7 r aising it, when itought not to be so suddenly % l ed , and th en u l t i ma t e ly ra i s ing it so high as t o di: ln t to a refusal, and. at last also lately refusing to e s "ota and thi s at.a time when the pressure on the aolakmerce of the country became insupportable, that h e ali tl , te d Whether the existence of this great body, with tholtyowers and its almost unbounded influence over Ncommercial concerns of this empire, was not o Y Purchased by this irregular and unsteady action. Wr e : t to more deeply f e lt th an h e h ow muc h o f t h e "carolled state of Ireland was owing to the impolicy of m uch gone by; no man more readily confessed how empi r e - ts due to that country from this and from the be o. ,et large; but, above all, one thing was clear and rep ay " -n u doubt, that before any attempt could be made to t o 1 , 0 What they owed in what was called " justice," or dir ee t , r a• ec their steps—if steps had been taken in a wrong ter, Thf i l en—in her favour; before anything could be at thitr'ed, or thought of, or named in debate, the one moat, needful was, that the preseet state of that country that the force of the law, be 'altered. It was said • S tate , only in four or five counties that this tia oe ot things existed; but, if allowed to con eeant'. It would not long be confiaed to those hPhi t i ,,, e3 * - -(klear, bear.) For what was the language b eeoi Y those wicked men, and by their still more wicked, lay ore less less ignorant, leaders—(Hear, hear)—whether te t il il a 4 t rfs,ta r e r o c r al, but they could not hops to put an end to things till the law between landlord and th, j o t , was settled, and some compensation was made to So r " t ". What they wanted w a s, th a t th ere s h ou ld b e tenant t, and that the relation between landlord and ah ould L sho uld cease altogether, or e l se th a t th e t enan t e eoome the landlord, and the landlord the tenant. Woule r s 2 And, therefore, ev e n it h e saw a l aw w hi c h ties is just the different r e l a ti ons b etween b ot h par fettedhthe Most fair a nd equit a bl e manner — as h e con- Yet h e h e Was not able to see his way to any such law— train., sh ould say the p re sent is not th e ti me f or i t. I t hae ti 't he thought of or dreamt of until the law has have bee fed, and murder and instigation to murder Posi t i on Put down. Ireland stood at that hour in a tlei thb of shameful and hateful eminence. It was the kid °l 'r of the most civilized nations of the world, la. o 3 ' u at itshiere was no country, including the most bar. wsn where savage, in which life was not more secure. till t b -441 wait to express his opinions more fully 1144 is measures which her Majesty's Governmen From co ntemplation were before the House. 'ear 0 Ile quarter of the House need they pottePosition to any measures framed with a view of exittj !n end to the frightful state of things which th e op i 0 I reland. L e t Ro t N o bl e L or d s oppos i te f ear to Ilee ta °B ! ; tb 'n of this or th a t k no t o f M em b ers, or see k oh la ro altarse thei r enmity. Let them throw themselves th e i r Inv ue nce and the country ; let them depend on rec e i ve "sure., and ho would answer for it they would Whey w general support f rom b o th s id es o f t h e H ouse . ith, ut ld have the sati s f ac ti on o f d o i ng th e i r d uty T here -.Lug their authority or their tenure of office. ,7 s a a Part of the subject which it was almost alltioeiJuncult to abstain from touching upon as to alta r hle-he meant denunciations of persons from the so me lb: S P of the people. He believed that a CCo" 44 cae had already committed illegal acts, if the riggt its of their ineite nts were not very much ex rettoritt,t,_'d ; but if the law ffie was not found sufficient to stat e ° Tem, or if the execution of the law in the peculiar ti ori3 2 : Society i n these districts where these denuncia reua_"(ll• 11urders to o k p l ace should be found to be sur a,,,lat.: with insurmountable difficulties, then let the h e mad e ' wh ich the Government was about to ask for, sad „so stringe n t as to reach them without doubt ; al op 'e, e "s su re there was no real friend of Ireland but justi"ceo. sire to see h er greatest criminals brought to Th e la od tad of RODEN h a d recent l y returned from Ire ef u ; and wished to say a few words relative to the state tordet,er _ountry. Great as was the speech of the Noble dew) kJ...ord Stanley), true as were its details, no of the came up to the reality of the present state „, r count(Hear, hear.) It was not his lot h o ;',,L e , •!▪ n the districts in which these outrages occurred, w h .,u e !clad near relatives and valued friends there, for it ip ,"' fate he felt the deepest anxiety. In Limerick, roLPa e ry, and Roscommon it was notorious that gentle % ouch re placed enlists of victims to be murdered eierree The as to the murderer might be conve -1410 rhe names of parties thus marked were well 1, 41. W0• . To some of them it had been suggested to re l e the country, but he would give the House the made by a Noble Lord, who was well kno wn t o h he m, to a suggestion of that description. " I am placed," said, 4. in a high and important station here, and Whether life or death be my portion, here I shall re tain."—(Cheers.) It was an appalling circumstance to bear in mind in what this horrible state of things ofginated It originated in a wicked press, w hi c h, d ay 4 . er day, promulgated the - most sweeping calumnie s , I,?t against indi v id ua l s , b ut aga i nst a vi hole class, hold ,,ug them up, as had been done e l sew h ere , thi s year, as ( 4..! only to be swept from the face of the earth."-- tc 4 r, hear.) Nor was it only by the press they were st:ta branded. At public meetings similar calumnious ate eill e en " were made, and the consequences were such li o lt i e l 4 s us they now almost daily, nay, hourly, heard of. h en ?fled the Government would show themselves in ear distoin giving protection to life and property in those he „"!• What measures they ought to, or would adopt, th at ° 1 11, 3 not pretend to say ; he supposed, however, lin th ( ) , ll e of the first steps would be to disarm the people. Peps, ;"g is could be more preposterous than to see labou- Q ehl " a lVened at present in Ireland, come into the ev e : t, 43 work with arms of all sorts, pistols, muskets, and howevuluoderbusses, in their hands. An Arms Bill, hot a er, would not be enough. They wanted a remedy Op" i ilinst an open, but also against a secret foe. An betbet thee t heY might meet, an open foe they might fight, had to meet in Ireland a shot from a foe hicVen th n a w all----(flear, hear.) They must deal with this • "Pie, too, not as they would deal with them in Whe o "l itrY• In Ireland joy was openly expressed rajo._4..murder was committed; the country was illu publice,ai bonfires, blazing from hill to hill, signified the preb abi Noicing. and yet the man who had fallen was I sar% • 7 " tyrant, hut a humane and liberal-minded Th,,, )41 . The Government, then, must be in earnest. ittv lo n o o k t mind the opinione, of this or that man; was,,eroo. Atraightforward, and do what was right h owever Whatever their measures might be, there Z o k Oir, that theyone subject of great congratulation, would be carried out by one of the St PoB3ible Lord 2 o rldel t i Lieutenants of Ireland. Lord Clo th,. sh ort e tiin dp n e e tu h peculiarly fitted for his purpose. During man attachment of all been in Ireland he had secured wuuld rejoice classes, and every right•thinking that it was by him that any e. Carri ed leeasurts fur restoring tranquillity would be 1,7" I out „ Art ar.,, e , "' l ed I -`4"ILLIAM complained of the laaeuage 11 0 L ast session with regard to the laddlords of Ir'eland. c..iesnould be glad to know n if Government had made any ulati o „ to e et umber of persons for whose sus us to ittutiattnee it would r. necessary to import food from Ire• all h dtt l'io the year. It seemed to him, from e could learn, that there would be at least two illiA SIIN, LONDON, , millions of people so situated in Ireland this winter as to require relief. It was stated that the potato crop would only feed 1,400,000; what, then, would become of th' remaining 5,600,000? Let them not look alone at the crime of a people, let them look somewhat to their dis tress.—(Boar, hear.) The state of things this year would be, he had no doubt, worse or quite as bad as during the last, and England must not imagine that it had done with Ireland until it had taken measures to raise the people from the slough into which bad legis lation had cast them. Earl GREY said that, looking at the history of the present year, he did not think it was expedient to en courage the people of Ireland to look to the Govern ment for relief from the pressure of their present diffi culty. Last year, under a great calamity, it bad been necessary to extend assistance to Ireland ; but it was impossible to coeceal that the granting that relief was attended by many very serious evils. Certainly ; he did not think that in the present state of the country it was expedient to hold out any hope to the people of Ireland that anything was to be obtained from the Government. That there was distress in Ireland he did not doubt. The Government, however, had stores of corn in hand, and the British Association still held great funds appli cable to cases of extreme want. He did hope that these funds would be considered sufficient for the relief of Ireland. With regard, however, to one point in the speech of the Noble Lord (Stanley), he wished to state, before he sat down, that it was the intention of the Government to institute inquiry into the causes of the recent commercial distress, and particularly as to how far it was attributable to the limitation of the issue of notes payable on demand.—(Hear.) Lord REDESDALE asked if it was intended to origi nate any and what measures in that House? Also if any Committee of the Lords was to be appointed en the cur rency question? . _ Et;rl - GREY replied, that with respect to the Bills likely more immediately to come before Parliament, he feared it might be necessary to originate all of them in the other House. With respect to the last question, they certainly had not intended to move for a Committee in the Upper House of Parliament. The Address was then agreed to. CIIAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY was re-appointed Chairman of the Committees. Their Lordships adjourned till to•morrow at Four o'clock. ROUSE OF COMMONS, Nov. 23. The SPEAKER took the Chair to-day at Twelve o'clock, and the swearing in of Members was proceeded with. Among those who were sworn we noticed Mr. Hudson, Sir John Yarde Buller, Lord Robert Grosvenor, Mr. Wodebouse, Mr. Bankes, Sir J. Pak ington, General Lygon, Mr. Tancred, Mr. Wilson Patten, Mr. Redhead Yorke, Mr. Dillon Browne, Mr. John O'Connell, Mr. Greene, Lord Euston, Sir R. Fergusson, Sir James Graham, Mr. Oswald, Mr. E. Ellice, Mr. W. Evans, Mr. F. O'Connor, Mr. F. French, Mr. Currie, Mr. Ewart, Mr. G. P. Scrope, Captain Harris, Mr. Mitchell, Sir E. Hayes, Sir E. Buxton, Mr. Childers, Mr. Maxwell Fox, Mr. Lowther, Mr. Heald, Mr. Clifford, Lord Alford, Mr. Houldsworth, the Right Hon. F. Baring, Mr. J. Hume, Mr. B. Cochrane, Sir Lucius O'Brien, Colonel Rawdon, Mr. Forbes, Sir Charles Douglas, and Sir Wm. Jollife. _ _ . Shortly after two o'clock Sir Augustus Clifford appeared at the bar, and summoned the House to the House of Lords, for the purpose of hearing her Ma jesty's Speech read by commission. The Speaker, accompanied by about 200 Members, immediately proceeded to the House of Lords. After an absence of about a quarter of an hour, the Speaker, accompanied by the other Members, re turned, and the House immediately adjourned till a Quarter to Four o'clock. The House resumed at Four o'clock, when about forty Members were sworn in, amongst whom were Lord George Bentinck , Mr. R. Cobden, Mr. Charles Buller, and Mr. Villiers. The swearing in occupied some considerable time, and long before it had closed the House became tolerably well filled with Mem bers. On the Treasury side there was scarcely a va cant seat, but the Opposition benches were not so well filled. Still there was a thick muster of the Oppo sition, and some time before the mover of the Address rose to deliver his maiden speech the House presented an exceedingly animated and interesting appearance. Mr. Feargus O'Connor took up his position on the Opposition side of the House, on the front bench, . . next to Lord George Bentinck, with whom be held a long conversation. Sir James Graham was early in attendance, and resumed his former seat on one of the back benches, but Sir Robert Peel did not arrive till about half. past four. Shortly afterwards Lord John Russell, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Sir George Grey entered the House, and they were immediately followed by the mover and seconder of the Address, who were attired:in militia costume. The SPEAKER intimatedtbat Members who had been elected for two or more places must, within 14 days, elect which place they will sit for. Mr. HARCOURT gave notice that he should move that "a loyal and dutiful Address to her Majesty, praying her Majesty to exercise her Majesty's undoubted prerogative of summoning within her Majesty's realm of Ireland the Peers spiritual and temporal of that realm, and the knights, citizens, and burgesses thereof, in order that her Majesty may take counsel with the same in regard to the great and manifold derangements and sufferings of that kingdom."—Agreed to. depression in trade,and great difficulty vs as experienced in getting discounts even upon good hi lls, and it was generally conceded that some time mus t elapse before ati improved state of things could be brought abont. The Noble Lord (Lord J o hn R e e se ll) and the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir C. Wo at I) under th ese circumstances recomm en d e d th e B a t k to ersiarge it s discounts ; and he b e li eve d if they had ne a t d one so at such a critical period, that a mu els more serious derangement would have taken lace,—(Loud cheers.) That was the part of a skilful pilot during a storm. Confidence was in a great mea sure restored, as persons with good . l sills could get them discounted. At Newcastle ' th , ire was a run upon a bank, and the manager of aLe Bank of Eng land in that town had the good at rinse and libe rality to advance money on g l sod security. Such was the demand that he heel to send by the electric telegraph to Leeds for more money, and a parcel was dispatched the same: day, showing that the Bank did all it could to allay the excitement that prevailed, and to afford all the ;accommodation in their power. The Government was t hererefore per fectly justified in what it did. - .Happily there was no infringement of the Bank Act, „although such an impression seemed to prevail. Fie was glad to find that the Bank yesterday reduced its discounts to 7 per cent. In a short time he believed the Ba n k wouldi resume its wonted arrangements, and that its btesiness would be transacted as usual. The state of Ireland alluded to in the ipeech, could not freil to cause the greatest concern Po the House. There was one part which he was sir re the House would agree upon—that the atrocious a :eirnes which were a dark page in Ireland's b istory must be put an end to in some was— orbe made, allond d do e u a s b u t r a e s brthoroughnngbt forward investigation tn e n a b w le e ild her Majesty' s Govern merit to support the maje sty of th e a crimes esaildwhtoichauppwreersse by y ver a y ll mdeyan, the fearful perpetrated. He was happy to- see that in her Ye a i esty's Speech allusion was made to a measure f.or the social im provement of the people of that country. Th Loved Lieutenant of Ireland deserved the warmest com mendation for the admirable system which he has pursued throughout the whole period of the distress. lie had, with great judgment, turned the attention of the agricultural interest to the impro cement of I , their crop; and had also recommended that lecturers should be E mployed in lecturing in different partsed the country for the purpose of instructing the ye:ems-dry in , the best utodes of improving the conetiv.on of the soil.—(Heitr, hear.) With respect to. our foreign relations, the House would be happy to, "hear that her Majesty still relied upon the continual,rrce of amicable relations with foreign countries. W it} i regard to the civil war isa Switzerland, he was bapy y to hear that means would be taken by h e ' : Majesty to endeavour to restore peace to country. There t a There were few countries in E urope possessed of more dignity than Swazi .;rland, and the circumstance of one of the moss, important states in Europe taking an interest 'y their affairs, and endeavouring to arrange th em f or them, would no doubt tend very much to harmo raise their unfortunate differences.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the slave-trade, the House we ,uld be glad to learn that her Majesty had CG ncluded a treaty with the Republic of the Equador, by virtue of which ships of this e ountrY were empowered to search vessels sailing '.ender the flag of that repub lic. Jn pursuance of the system of free trade, there was no doubt that the navigation laws would be brou:Ot under the serious consideration of the Hous e , with a view to their amendment and modification. The subject had obtained the serious attention of tbe House during the last session. A Comnaittee was then appointed to inquire into the o peration of those laws, and an amusing work had been written upon the report furnished lay that Comm &tee by the Hon. Member for Stoke-upon ' Trent (Mr. Ricardo). A measure respecting the health of towns, more especially with respect to the metropolis would, he was happy to hear, be brought under the consideration of the House. This wee a subject which pressed particularly upon the attention of the House, now that there were ap. prehensi , ms of the return of that fatal epidemic which in former years had visited this', country. He felt convinced that the best preventatives to the spread of the cholera were to be found in abun dant supplies of water and an effident drainage of the streets and alleys of la :be tow„.—(Hear.) With regard to the sufferings of the working classes, he most 'cordially concurre' d in the commendation expressed. by her Majesty of the exemplary manner in which they had borne their privations.— (Hear, b ear.) Frol.d his own personal know ledge o f their conduct in Lancashire he felt convi need that they also deserved the respect of this House. The Hon. Member concluded by moving the Ade tress, which was, as usual, an echo of the Speech , Mr. SHAFTO ADAIR, in rising to second the maser), claimed the indulgence of the House upon the same grounds as that of the Honourable Men aber who moved the Address. No person who had witnessed the severe distress and privation exie ing in this great capital during the course of the late stoppage of trade, could fail to appr ec i a t e th e feelings which had induced her Majesty to authorise her :I Insisters to agree to a proposition which might have involved an infringement of the existing law. The course then pursued deserved the warmest tint:ales of the House.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) With respect to an allusion that the late abundant hary est had mitigated the pressure of distress, he trusted that this House would shortly adopt some measure to ensure, as far as possible, a prosperous and consecutive employment of the working classes —(I leer, hear.) With regard to the navigation.. laws , there was no doubt but they - .required a full consideration and attentive examination. He did not, however, imply by examination an.abandonment of thsose laws, and he trusted that in that inquiry no prejtedication of the question would be allowed to bias the result to which the House might come upon the subject.—(Hear, hear.) Prejudication for the abolition of those laws was equally as !fatal to a full and fair inquiry as prejizdicative to their conservation.—(Loud cheers from the Protectionists.) He was happy to hear that cheer from Honourable Members oppo site, and he trusted that when called upon to enter tain the question they would submit themselves to the task of a full and fair inquiry into the whole subject. If he thought the mighty efforts of this empire were to be crushed by the alteration of these laws he would be the last to vote for such an event taking place,. But be knew that such would not be the result. He b e li eve d that all'that had taken place was temporary, and would soon be set right. It would afford the House great gratification to learn that another link had been broken which bound the slave, he alluded to what had taken place with respect to the Equador.—(Hear, hear.) So long as England was the friend of the slave they might depend upon it other nations would follow their example.—(Hear.) England had great weight in the councils of the world, and her advice and ex ample would go a great way to do great good. He inferred, from the assurance given-an her Ma jesty's Speech, that a better day would soon shine upon the world, and that that which was now dawn ing beyond the Alps would soon extend to these kingdoms.—(Hear.) With regard to the health of towns, it was hardly necessary he should refer to the subject further than to express a hope that no delay should be allowed to take place in bring ing forward some measures on the subject.— (Hear, hear.) The cholera was already approaching the shores of this country, and the sooner attempts were made to arrest its progress the better.— (Hear, hear.) There was another topic alluded to in the Speech, which he approached with a great sense of oppression on account of the overwhelming interest of the subject; he alluded to the melancholy and dreadful events that had lately taken place in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) To render life desirable it must be made secure. —(Rear, hear.) The State had the right tool. ditesmamnd an account of the spilling of the blood When heeanersetflesubject.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.") in Ireland, knowing as he did what the his heart sickened at he must confess that hear.) Former outrages had contemplation.—(Hear them, but those that had lateeeleth t m k g to extenuate none. In former times the y m aadneen place bad tics might lead men into crime, buts,sthof the Legislature, no such thing existed now. ai lt s to horrible to see the gigantic figure of daily w murder raising its head, in Ireland. Re be lieved that these fearful crimes might be checked by the law as it at present existed. without resorting to force, but at all events life must be preserved, and if it could not without re sorting to military forte, it would be far better that that should, be employed than that such dreadful murders should be allowed with impunity. But while it was-necessary that they should have re course to measures of a coercive nature, it was equally necessary that they should accompany those measures with plans that may be well adapted for instructing and educating, while they improve the general condition of the people.—(Hear, hear.) It would be the duty of the Legislature to set the people of Ireland a moral example, and to teach them to look to the Government of the country not only for protection against the musket of the assassin, but for instruction in virtue and encouragement in doing good also; and while it was the duty of Go vernment to seek out and bring the criminal to jus tice, it was equally their province to teach the people that a distinction could not be drawn between that criminal or the parties who prevented his falling into the hands of .the law. They must teach the people that to harbour or conceal a criminal was a 'great /crime, a great moral crime, that ought to be punished with as much severity as NOTICES OF MOTION. RAILWAYS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice that, on Tuesday next, he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to extend the time for the purchase of land by railway companies. THE RECENT COMMERCIAL DEPRESSION. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice that, on Tuesday next, he would move for a Select Committee to inquire into the causes of the recent commercial distress, and as to how far it had been effected by the laws relating to the currency. CRIME IN IRELAND. Sir G. GREY gave notice that on Monday next he would move for leave to bring in a Bill for the prevention of crime and outrages in Ireland. THE UNION. Mr. FEARGUS O'CONNOR. gave notice that on Tuesday, the 7th of December, he would move for a Select Committee to inquire into and report upon the measures by which the Legislative Union of England and Ireland had been brought about and upon the probable consequences of the continuance of or a repeal of the union (as we understood). FOREIGN AFFAIRS. Mr. C. ANSTEY gave notice that on an early day he should move for the return of a num ber of papers connected with the administration of foreign affairs in this country from the year 1829 down to the present time included, to illustrate cer tain charges of high crimes and misdemeanours which it was his , intention to bring against the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.—(Laughter.) DECIMAL COINAGE. Dr. BOWRING gave notice that on Friday next he should inquire of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Master of: the Mint (Mr. Sheil) what steps had been taken with respect to his proposition to establish a decimal coinage?—(Laughter.) ISLE OF MAN. The HoN. MEMBER also gave notice that on the same day he should ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether it was his intention to move the appointment of a commission to inquire into the civil and criminal Judicature of the Isle of Man. m,.. E I C I C o L n E s S m I A A N ST g IC av A e L no C ti O ce M t A b I a I t SS e I n ON tbis day fortnight, he should call the attention the House to the manner in which the E c f clesu,st . ical Commis- ADJOURNING Mr. BROTHERTON Commis sioners had carried out the Act notice that on Monday DEBATES.oIVIIham IV. tii,idjournment of a dheebastheouwldasmove moved that an d seconded,w g ape e question. ethSpeaker should adjourn the House without puttin g THE QUEEN'S l IIE The SPEAKER reported that he had atteDncillESS. House of Peers this day, and that her Majesty ed the de livered by commission a most gracious spe cc i (The Right Hon. Gentleman then read the Speech.) Mr. HEYWOOD (who wore the uniform of a Deputy-Lieutenant) then rose to move that an humble address be passed to her Majesty for the gracious speech which they had heard that day, and in doing so he said he had to request that indulgence which the House usually afforded to young Members who for the first time rose to address it.—(Hear, hear.) He felt that this indulgence would be the more needed by him, because he was not en abled to congratulate the House upon the prosperity of the country. He regretted deeply to state that the commercial affairs of the nation had been for some time past in an alarming state of de pression. The cause of this depression was, pro• bably, undue speculation in railways that speculation which so peculiarly characterised this iron age in England. The capital authorised to be raised by Parliament for the construction of lines amounted to no less a sum than 299,000,000/. ; 161,000,000/. had been already paid upon shares, leaving 138,000,0001. more outstanding. This enor mous capital was of itself enough to cause a crisis and to lower the income of the country, but when to this was added the deficient harvest of last year, and the failure of the potato crop, and that these disasters led to a great dimi nution in the demand fro m foreign countries for our manufactures, and that great poverty existed throughout the country, the House could not fail to see that all these things must have materially acted upon the manufacturing interests. In Manchester, where the cotton trade was settled, the weekly demand had decreased from 30,000 or 31,000 tens weekly, in 1845, to not more than 20,000 at the present time. Besides this, there had been over-speculation in Calcutta by the large East India houses—over-spe culation in corn, and the result had been very great "WEDNES.DA.I PIf_eNING, NO.VEMfIE n l aw criminal hiinselsfe--(Hear, hear.) He had hed - with satisfactio n that while the Governmen he ar d t were ready to vinditate the majesty of the law, by punishing the criminal and suppressing outrage, they would be no less prepared to resort to remedial measures. It was not his province to antici pate what those remedial measures were, or to speculate upon the probable reception they will meet with at the hands of the House ; but, if he mistook net, those measures would be highly calculated to develop the almost inexhaustible resources of the sister kingdom. Those who had travelled through the country, as he had done, and witnessed her vast re sources, must be aware of the existence of a wide field for the exertions of the Legislature in spurring on the people to industry and wealth. From experience he could tell the House that great good might be accomplished in this respect, and he should look forward anxiously for the success of those mea sures which might be introduced, with the view of developing the boundless resources, both agricultural and commercial, then such measuref o 1re1and,......(11 s, e e • ear, hear.) Whe timilar measures, would be brought forward venture positiv e ly to or not he could not mi ht say. He thought he g be permitted to call upon the House not to look to these remedial measures for any immediate success. The blood of the Saxon was not infused into the veins of the Englishman in a day, nor could Ireland be regenerated in a day ; but let gene ration after generation continue to make untiring efforts fer her improvement, and the Legisla ture every time it met would have cause to congratulate itself that its exertions had been gradually productive of improvement in the sister kingdom. But the Legislature could only assist the country in improving itself. It could not, by its own resources, and with its own measures, reform the condition of Ireland, and he hoped the people of that unfortunate country would reedily second the efforts of Parliament. In the belief that the objects he had dwelt upon, if carried out, would promote the welfare of Ireland— that if a large, general, comprehensive, intelligent policy were adopted, it would alone tend to the regeneration of that unhappy country ; and believing that such would be the policy of the House, he begged leave to second the address.—(llear hear.) The SPEAKER then read the Address, which was merely an echo of the Speech. Mr. H. GRATTAN rose almost at the bar, and said he deeply regretted that he was compelled on this occasion to address the House. The Hon. Gen tleman, who appeared t o l a b our under a severe cold, and who, consequently, was no t h ear d d i stinctly, proceeded to say he had thought that the crisis which had occurred in Ireland would have been avoided. Nothing, he assured the House, but an imperative sense of public duty actuated him, and other Members from the sister kingdom with whom he had hitherto acted, to rise. He had heard her Majesty's gracious Speech. Some parts of it met with his entire satis faction ; other portions he had heard with great regret. He was sorry also that many parts of ,the speech of the Hon. Mover and Seconder did not call forth in him corresponding sentiments of satis faction, because he thought there were other means of probing the wounds of Ireland than by means of a speech. Some parts of the speeches, however, he h a d rece i ve d w i t h satisfaction. He wished, however, that the Honourable Gentlemen had devised some means by which Ireland might be extricated from the false position in which she was placed. He wished the Hon. Seconder could have propounded some panacea for his unhappy country, instead of giving it a lecture upon agriculture, as he did not think that his propositions would afford salve to the wounds of his unhappy country. They had full time to discuss the question, for England was at peace, her character stood in high estimation, and the new slave treaty, like the 20,000,000/., had added new laurels to her crown. France submitted, and America would not meddle with them. They bad, therefore, plenty of time for deliberation. The Honourable Gentleman looked forward to the day when the union of the people of the two countries would be stronger than at present. But he did not think that an union of poverty was the best, and that Ireland should come every day here with a petition of distress. Her condition wa s deplorable, and the murders they read of were hor rifying. The union he wished to see, and it was one that would promote the happiness of the country, was an union of concord, and not merely of parchment. He saw an union of parchment but not of affection. The amendment he now proposed was one affecting both Catholics and Protestants. He reprobated as much as any one the horrible crimes and murders which had disgraced his country. He thought that that country ought not to submit to be stigmatised either as a nation of beggars or marauders. They were neither one nor the other. The Lord Lieutenant had lately stated three things—that the Poor-law had not succeeded; that it had not been fully carried into effect ; and that he trusted that Parliament would soon adopt some efficient measures. Nov, what were those remedial measures ? Was it the Landlord and Tenant Bill ? Was that a Bill which could be called an efficient remedial measure ? It was not; it would not cause a social compact in Ireland. The landlord and tenant question was not a social one. There were parties in Ireland who thought that enough had not been done to mitigate the distress of their country. They had to return their thanks to many individuals who had acted nobly and liberally.—(Hear, hear.) Those persons had won for themselves the heartfelt thanks and gratitude of all parties of Ireland. Their names, though they were not known, would be remembered with feelings of gratitude.—(Laughter.) Those whose names were known would receive the warmest thanks of the people of that countrv.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the distre ss o f t h e country, he, with other Irish Members, was not of opinion that sufficient had been done by the Legislature. The poor-law would be of no service. Nu merous boards of guardians had refused to carry out that law, and had in consequence been dismissed. The property of Ireland was in a great degree gone. He knew one nobleman who had an estate of 7,000/. a year; of this sum 6,0001. went for interest, and all that he had to live upon was 1,000/. a year, and that he could not collect.—(Laughter.) This would give English Members an opinion of what the rental of Irish property was. There was one parish in Cavan in which the whole amount of the food was under seizure for distress. What, then., was the state of things ? The universal distress existed; the poor-law could not relieve it. The whole of the food was under distress, and yet the wretched individuals still lived. Would not that account in some degree for those horrible acts of assassination and crime which had recently taken place ? He held in his hand copies of fire hundred and fifteen letters from Roman Catholic clergymen, in answer to letters sent them by the Relief Committee of this country, stating ;,the numbers of persons in distress in each of those parishes, the length of time which the distress had lasted, and the means which had been adopted to remove its pressure. The Hon. Gentleman then read a statement in cor roboration of the observations he had made, and having done so, asked the Members of her Majesty's Government whether they thought that a poor-law would do for Ireland? He thought before her Majesty's advisers had prepared her Majesty's Speech they would have done well to have consulted with some Irish Members on the subject. (Hear, bear.) If his Noble Friend at the head of the Government went on to govern Ireland with the same materials as he had done he would find that he was taking a wrong course. Men in Ireland would not now collect the poor-rate, although they had been offered 25 per cent. for doing so. The great cause of misery in Ireland was its absentee landlords. What was to be done in this state of things? Why, let them send back the absentees; let the landed proprietors discharge their duties, and they would have very little of these disturbances. Why did not ' Lord Palmerston go back to his estate in Donegal ? —(Hear, and laughter.) They had heard whispers towards the close of the last session about selling up the Irish landlords. Well, he had no objection to that, nor had he any objection to sell up the Noble Lord whom he had just named. Why did not Lord Lansdowne go back to his estates? He certainly had no fault to find with the Noble Lord's agent, although he had built two-storied houses for the cattle, which the cattle could not get up to ; but let Lord Lansdowne go back to Ireland and do his duty, and they would hear no more of the - se shocking complaints. No man more lamented the present state and condition of Ireland than he did, but if the English absentee were allowed to con tinue receiving rents, and to leave his tenants to the mercy of the assassin, he saw no prospect of a change for the better. No one more despised those who violated the la w ,l those o wh ho oset /all rt morality and goo d government at defiance, se who sought to est a bli sh a system which shouled did .man against man, c l ass against class, than he u it was not by agr i cultural lect uresthat t It ' they could get rid o f such villians. I only by enforcing th e a b sentees to return and wdaos their duty that they could hope to bring about a reformation in the present state of Ireland...Meer.) Ejectment was the chief cause of the outrages in Ireland. What had the poor ma n t o depend upon ? Nothing. He had seen men, women, and children turned out of their cottages, and left to die in ditches in a way that was disgraceful to a Christian country. He cried shame upon such conduct. He trusted the Noble Lord would carry out the law, and hoped the Irish Members would aid him ; but there was one law which they ceuld not carry out. The law of ejectment directed the sheriff to put the landlord in possession of his land; and father, wife, and sickly children were turned out of their houses. They fired the houses to_ satisfy their revenge, and the law could not therefore be carried out. How could they expect the people who were treated thus to do anything else than seek to gratify their deadly revenge, He was not excusing the outrages which had been perpetrated. He was merely stating the :caul of them. A landlord had freighted out ships to carry some of his tenants to an other land. They were shipwrecked, awl those who returned imagined that this had been done purposely. He pulled down houses, and made the land into sheep walks. A fortnight after he was shot ! Another, who had made his fortune in the wars, made a provision in his will that his heir should, to entitle him to receive his property, clear his land by ejectment, and that if he did not do so the property was to go to another, and if he acted likewise, to a third; and if he refused that it should go to the public. (Hear, hear.) He and those who acted with him complained of the speech which the Noble Lord had framed, because it did not suggest any remedial measures. Now, he had stated the measures which should be devised. Let the Government adopt them. A deputation of the Catholic clergy had waited upon the Lord Lieutenant, and they were told by him that if ever there was a country deserving relief it was Ireland, just emerging from fearful calamity, and about to enter upon a state of calamity which found them unpre pared for it. The Honourable Member then proceeded to quote further extracts from the reply of the Lord Lieutenant to the addresses of the Catholic clergy in Ireland. It was the duty of the Government under this state of circumstances to endeavour to obtain a settlement of the vexata questio of landlord and tenant. The English farmers were calling out for a settlement of that question. Would the Government still continue to refuse an adjustment of that question ? The country looked with deep anxiety for some measure to be brought forward calculated to settle that question. The English people were calling out for a tenant right Bitl, and would they deny it to Ireland ? Unless security was given for the outlay on land no tenants would be got either in England or Ireland to lay out money in land. Let the Government do justice to the Irish people and they might depend upon it they would hear little more of the dreadful mur ders that were taking place in Ireland. The Government ought to give to the people of Ireland persons who would look into their local affairs. Let the House remember that they could conciliate six millions of people by conceding a measure which could bynopossibilityinjure the country. The Irish party hitherto had exhibited the greatest forbearance towards her Majesty's Government, and the least they could do was to continue them their aid and assistance. With these sentiments he felt constrained to move as an amendment, that "Although the existing poor-laws might be adequate to supply the wants of some districts in Ireland, it did not meet the exigencies of others, and it was therefore absolutely necessary that immediate measures should be adopted to prevent pestilence and famine amongst a large number of her Majesty's Irish subjects." Mr. ROCHE seconded the amendment. He said that, as regarded the six counties, the agrarian crimes com mitted in them were even worse than what was described by the public press. The amount of poverty and social disorganization in Ireland was frightful; but he thought her Majesty's Government and their supporters might have been prepared to recommend something beyond the vulgar expedient of the bayonet. He would say that it was an expedient which was not only vulgar, but futile; for, upon looking to history, they could not fail to observe that after centuries of coercion, martial law, and blood, Ireland was now in a worse state, socially and physically, than she had been for several hundred years. Any attempt to save Ireland by a poor-law was useless. In some places that law might be carried out fully, but in others it was impossible —in such a place, for instance, as Skibbereen, where the valuation of the property under the poor-law amounted to only 96,0001. a year, or, in other words, to about one penny per day for each man. He (Mr. Roche) had come in con tact with the lower orders in Ireland as much as any man. As an agriculturist he employed as many or more than any man in th e U n it e d Ki ngdom, and from his experience he had come to a conclusion far dif ferent from that whi c h was usua ll y entertained, that the Irish people were naturally prone to crime and in gratitude. In his own country, where he carried on an extensive business as an agriculturist in places far asunder; and as a landlord of 20,000 acres of land, he did as much as any landlord in England did. He had promoted an extensive emigration; he had dismissed his tenantry and punished them in every form when be thought them worthy it; but he could say with truth, that since he was 19 years old he bad never been mos. lested, or threatened, or interfered with—(Hear, hear) — and this was mainly owing to the fact, that he tried to act justly and fairly.—(Hear, hear.) He bad no bolt to his hall door, and any boy of ten years old might push • it open at night. It had been said that there was some thing in Celtic blood which was prone to crime and dis order. But when the Irish came to England, or when they went to America, did they shoot or assassinate ? Was there ever a chairman or railway director shot ? What was the reason that in every country in the world the Irishman was quiet and industrious except in Ire land ? Why because in those countries he was treated with justice. Ho thought resident landlords gene rally acted well and fairly. But there was al ways in Ireland, from the members of the government down to the pettiest landlord a system of injustice which was creative of all the crime and bad conduct in the country. As to the question of landlord and tenant, no one who had ever written or spoken on the subject but admitted that the existing state of things was unsound, and ought not to be con tinued. That question was a far more vital one in Ire land than in England. In Ireland, if a poor man had not land, or was not employed on it, ho must die; whereas, in England, there were manufactures and other means of employment to which he might turn. The question of tenant right must be settled, and the tenant should have a right to the value of the money which he had laid out in improvement by selling the occupancy. They (the Irish members) as a body would never con sent to a Coercion Bill till the promises which bad been made to the people of Ireland to inquire into the radical causes of the evils and misfortunes from which they suffered were made good, and everything which could be. done to redress them was effected. With regard to crime, he (Mr. Roche) thought there was no reason for going beyond the present law for its suppression ; but then that law must be carried out efficiently, which had never been done by the executive. The whole system for the trial of criminal off ences , b ot h at the assizes and before the assistant barrister , stant barrister, was un soun d, an d the business carried on in an inefficient manner, With regard to the police, he thought it a most incompetent body. It was said that no one assisted in the arrest of criminals. But did the police go in the pursuit of them ? Take the case of a man in Tipperary of the name of Harding, who was se verely beaten. It was said he had a gun, and should have gone in pursuit of the persons who maltreated him. But why should he have taken the whole fight on him self, when within a mile or two, there were five or six lazy policemen polishing their guns, who were not on the alert. There was also great inefficiency in the man. ner in which the Executive was conducted in Dublin. It was composed of men who did not understand the country, and who were idle and gossipping persons. Not one of the heads of departments was an Irishman. The head of the army was an Englishnitan. The head of the police a Scotehman. It would be very difficult for the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) to govern Ireland with advantage to the country and himself, when he had not the means of knowing the real state of the country. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth was still worse off, for he had not in his Cabinet a single Irishman; and in a Ministry professing to govern the United Kingdom this omission was a direct and palpable insult to Ireland. The Noble Lord had certainly one Irishman in his Cabinet, and the Lord-Lieutenant was perhaps better than any Irishman. He (Mr. Roche) had the highest opinion of his abilities and his desire to serve Ireland. When he learned and knew the country, he would probably become " Ipsis Hibernis Hibernior." Still it would be better if there were men in the Cabinet who understood that country. If they would settle the relations between landlords and tenants—if they would not see the poor die—if they would not stand by their crotchets about the poor law —it they would take care that those should be fed who could not feed themselves, they would see Ireland tranquilised. He protested against a Coereion Bill, till it was proved that the present law was pro perly carried out. What had ever been done by a Coercion Bill? What would be done by an Arms' Bill, except to disarm all respectable persons, and place them at the mercy of every vagabond ? By a Coercion Bill disaffection was created among well-disposed people. In 1818 an attorney in Tippertry defended 1,441 men under the Rebellion Act, and out of them only eleven were convicted ; and afterwards seven of the eleven were shown to have been unjustly convicted, and were pardoned. No doubt justice was done on the four who were convicted. The remainder of the 1,441 were ren dered disaffected. The immediate remedies for Ireland were to feed the starving, to settle the relations between landlords and tenants, to reorganise the executive, and to be just and fear not. Mr. S. ADAIR explained. Ile bad expressly said that the power of the law was sufficient to suppress crime, but that it would be better that the bayonet should be used than that the present misgovernment, amounting almost to a dissolution of society, which was going on in those unhappy districts, should not be checked. The amendment having been put from the chair, Mr. H. DRUMMOND (West Surrey) was under stood to say that he agreed with the Hon. Gentleman who had spoken on the subject of tenant right, and that he was prepared with a Bill upon that question in Eng land. It would be presumptuous in him to offer sugges tions to her Majesty's Ministers for the better govern ment of Ireland, but still he would beg of them to have the courage to put in force their repeated promises of impartial justice to Ireland.—(llear, hear.) Whatever might be the character of the present House of Commons --NNhatever of the evil surmises with regard to it might be realised, he was confident that there never was a House assembled with a more firm determination in the mind of every ono of its Members to do their duty, to put an end to the system of being influenced by mere words and conventionalities, and, to use a homely ex pression, to show that the days of "sham" were gone by. He begged to ask why was the Protestant Church established in thi s country (as we understood) but because it w as accor d ant with the feelings of the majority o f t h e people : and wherefore was there a Fresbyteriau Church establishment 24, 1841`. tress in the western . I the terri instal of _____., —,a. . _as a fi r... in I. 0 c/er . soon be furnished b ;Tee use svould in Scotland ? Because there also it 7- - r,ve, , went bletoacethoeucnitrscuwlia.trhs served able to the opinions of the majority. If the G,, - inets, sent ten bishops, a thousand priests, and 41,000 bet) they might (-et:Wish an Episcopal Church in Se_oi a n d , tho.lio You t o them b gY, , acting in obedience y the Roman Cs. but on what principle o. justice could it be done? " such Y Chi sir bishops II 'ht vete million after million for Irelafid, but thy' a n enti ~ . • e had so frequ asig - - tl were tall q•t 'I D a( ignorance of I h en y observed would be inefficacious unless measures en so . use, 11,- 'Lich had b rise matters displa d • that there should not be this discrepancy betvr . ee t r i En g . j og , t ,:t he felt constrain: den exhibited again that ye n il land, Scot!`mad) and Ireland, which did not ex:: Roman any information el'Sriv,. Nd from the to read to the Houseevteh. other country in Europe, and which even . Justiceoman The Hon. Mer n ,:".er read at sources he had mentioned.. ' Saxony did not require. from three • . great length Catholic royal family ial united , 1 tulle s in Slireturns modes should be lea f of Ireland required that the ptlnpleistrict in n °l2l'll°t' b g b y the R ev . E . p een starving, but it shoui, i . )4, by their own labourers -Meal. , nan, and from oth er y the Rev. Michael Brener d h•th to s ew h a ter proved rent parts ea 'llAn Catholic 1 a hear.) It was true that the Pout-- ' ' , Gen 4 aid to- that h of Ireland, all eoncurri a er-ymen in diffe. ' inoperative, but everything which hat. !`"• 4 . ten ow how hundreds were dyin 't. star 19g in the dstatement: night showed that the Irish gentlemen did mf's famine had done and gc. - vatieti and -is was do. ¶ ng its work; ease; th" sources —cattle , 'a s and that th to work it. . te. ntit'n of enabled the ' cru i s e "- ' Pc , Ihr Y -- whi h e re... Sir G. GREY was anxious to draw the fee e to pas - . e heretofore, dd .. a ress sorbed, h i s r see had a ll the House to the terms of the amendment to the and that the prospects o' f , been ab which had been proposed, and which, limited 0 t he y vFre more alarming than the seaso ta w Coming winter were, would probably be lost sight of am 3 dst the T h e y i came from men who had an intimn hlc'' had passed_ grievances of Ireland, of which the debate was :.'eltely to one knowledgeof thepeople—rnen who:it:ken""riee With. be so fertile. The amendment set forth that "a !though lateness,' the death -beds of their fever-st ed. till' it lires i n e the present poor-law might materially allele :ate the ioners. In S:2° midst of this destitution, mizken parish existing distress in some districts in , Ireland tress, what was there in the measures as r t y ' "d dill yet, as it would be quite inadequate to do so in by the Government to meet it ? These promized others, it was absolutely necessary to devise immediate concur that the country was in an i fi • l Itatemenill n nite y worse con - measures to ayes t famine and pestilence from a large dition now than it was this time last e th . portion of her lll4jesty's subjects in that country .” On there was the same deficit in the potato L Y •r ar at op—that the part of the Government he regretted that he must . the clothing of the people was worn out, and that th offer the most decided opposition to the introd uetion of would have to peas through the winter naked and hungr y such an amendment on the Address in answer to her and labouring underfever. This' was estate of things which Majesty's gracious Speech from the Throne. The spirit called for the entire attention of the Government, e inste a d of this amendm en t was opposed to the spirit H o;! the ob- of th e i r devoting the whole stress th ueen's Speech servations of the on. Gentl eman w h o mowed it, in to their letter on thequestion of of h t e restriction of the which he expre sse d a d es i re that a feeling of i :elf-eels- Bank Ch arter. Ile implored th e ance should be ex c it e d among t h e people, and LI attention to the stat e o f Ire should be led away f rom th at d egrading system of de- land. At present he did no t gather from the spe ec h o f pendence on extr aneous a id w hi ch would be xie promoted the Right H on . Baronet (Sir G rey) tat they were to by the adoption of thi s amen d ment. It was cessary, have an ythi ng beyond legislati on on th in the great c a l am ity w hi c h b ete l Ireland last :year, for rights of landlord and tenant. Necessary as such a the Legislature to interpose with a large and us isparing measure was, it was insufficient to meet the present con hand to save the lives of thou ands . But was tlesre such dition of the country. Let the Gove a perpetual necessity as to make the recurrence of such consider the state of Ireland, and enact me a s ures ry measures perpetual ? And b ecause t h e peop l e were that starving nation, and to restore her t toaraeise preserved from a calamity w hi c h was press i ng t b em i nto prosperity.—(Hear, bear.) If the unfinishedc roads were the grave last year, and which it was said might again taken up they would give much employment, form arise three months hence, were they to be taught not to useful works, and avoid the charges for damages done depend on themselves, but on the exertions of others, to land. Let Government adopt some such measure for and on grants of money drawn from the taxation of the temporary relief, and they would do considerable good. country? It had been assumed, both in the House and Let them charge Ireland as they liked afterwards, but elsewhere, that the p oor -l aw h a d proved i noperative. It let life be saved for the moment. A statement from would, however, be admitted when the information Ministers of the additional relief they were prepared to which was now in course of preparation was laid before grant would produce vast good in Ireland. The letter the House, that the poor-law, although in some parts which the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) had read of the country it did not meet the requirements of was a cruel and heartless production ; and it was not the aggregate poverty of Ireland, yet that its re- right to bring forward such a letter anonymously. The tilts were su ffi cient to gratify th e ex p ecta ti ons of Times would not dare to write as it does against the the Parliament that passed it; and the terms in people of Ireland, if it was not backed by a large p arty which it had b een s p o k en o f i n her Majesty's in Engl a nd, w h o gave to that infamous, calumnious , and Speech showed that it h a d mater i a ll y ass i sted felon paper the largest share of their support, and thereby in the alleviation of di s t ress . Th e sum of 300,0004 identified th emse l ves w i th its outrageous attacks on the bad been collected by rates before the introduction of people and the priests of Ireland. Nothing could more the present poor-law in Ireland, whereas in September directly tend to a separation between the two countries of the present year, and since the operation of the new than the infamous attacks which perpetually appeared law, 73,0004 had been collected, and in October in that journal. He implored some of the Ministers to 121,0001., as compared with 26,0001. in the same give a general outline of the measures they were pre month last year, and in the present month there was pared to adopt for the relief of Ireland before the meet-. no doubt that the collection of October would be ing of Parliament in February ; and if even thi s were exceeded. Tho s e f un d s were ra i se d f rom the land given, the Irish Members wou ld not persist in their in Ireland for the relief of the poor by the exertions of amendment. He fully concurred in the statement of art parties appointed to carry the law into effect, by some Hon. Member, that the House was bound to teach the who in that House (as we understood) bad expressed a landlords that they had duties as well as privileges. wish to carry the law into effect, and on the other hand The Hon. Member's parallel between English and Irish by paid agents, where those who had been elected for crime was decidedly to the disadvantage of the former, the purpose had failed to perform their duty. The Hon. in respect of the abominable character of the crimes. Gentleman who had moved the amendment had alluded On the question of coercion, he must say that great re to the boards of guardians which had been dissolved, paration was due to the Right Hon. Baronet opposite assuming that that had been done because they had failed (Sir R. Peel) from those who had succeeded him. Why to carry the law into effect. The whole correspondence had they ousted him ? He had just effected a great on the subject would be laid before the House, and, reform, and done much to redeem the errors of his past therefore, he (Sir G. Grey) would not enter upon it, conduct towards Ireland ; but the moment he proposed a but he would say that it would be found that the Poor- Coercion Bill, the present Ministers turned him out, and law board were justified in the course they had pursued now proposed to do just the same thing.—(Hear, hear.) in placing the local administration of the law in the His (Mr. O'Connell's) sympathies had long been with hands of those whose obedience they could compel. He the party of the present Ministers ;ho had thought them believed that the law was working well in the great in many respects in advance of the English public ; but majority of the unions. There were 130 unions in Ire- he could not conceive how the Noble Lord at the head land, and he believed that in only twenty-two aid• of the Government could propose a Coercion Bill, after would be required in addition to the rates to his past declarations, without first attempting to relieve meet the exigencies of the people. But did it follow the miseries of Ireland, and to carry out his own promise that an amendment would be adopted which recom- of patting the axe to the root of the evil. Deeply did mended the passing of measures to avert famine he deplore the change that had come over the Noble and pestilence, which, of course, meant grants Lord. Surely there must be something in the nature of money, without its being known what measures of office which wondrously altered men's sentiments.— would be brought forward by the Government ? A (Hear.) Having referred to the speech of the Noble large store of provision from last year was still in the Lord, in 1846, with respect to a Coercion Bill, be • 4* hands of the Government, which would be applied to (Mr. O'Connell) now said to him, increase the police meet any extraneous distress ; and they would meet and the military, and even, if necessary, send down every case of emergency, if possible, without the neces- special commissions, to try the offenders, and punish sity of the interference of the House by further grants them severely ; but let him not infringe upon the con of money, although on this point they would be able to stitution. What was there in the present state of speak more confidently hereafter. He trusted that by things, even in the accounts of this day, to justify such the exertions of the landed proprietors and the people infringement ? Did not the Times of this day state that themselves, poverty would be relieved and industry re- the people had turned out to assist the police in captut.' vived, and that reliance would not be placed on the ing the murderers of Mr. Hill ? At the very moment Government, but on their own efforts. He would read the people were showing such anxiety to aid the course an extract from a letter of a gentleman employed by of justice, was it right to bring down upon them these the Poor-law Commissioners at Bantry, one of the extraordinary powers ? Another instance of the same unions in which the board of guardians was dissolved. kind was recorded in the county of Limerick, one of It was to the following effect :—" He hoped that no the most disturbed counties. Why not foster such a public works, as a means of relief, would be sanctioned, spirit, rather than repress it by these arbitrary pro- He believed that, with the assistance of the ceedings ?—(Hear.) It was said, he believed falsely, Britifh Association, they would get on well, that landlords who were most humane and indulgent to anti that the landlords must give employment. their tenantry, had been sacrificed. Look at his Hon. They never were in a better position to improve Friend the Member for Cork (Mr. Roche) and Isis rela their property, if they knew how to take advantage of tive, who were resident in Tipperary. Were they afraid it. They had seen enough of temporary advances to of being shot at ? Were they obliged to keep at home? know that the parties who received them were worse He rejoiced to be able to adduce the Hon. Member as a off afterwards. The Government could give assist- proof of the good feeling of the tenantry in Tipperary, ance after local efforts had been made, but not else." which would b e genera l, if a ll l an dl or d s were like the Now, the spirit of th e amen d ment whic h had been pro- gentlemen he had named. Mr. Philip Bianconi was posed would lead the people to suppose that the Govern- another instance. went would do everything by grants from tho Treasury Mr. B. OSBORNE—He is not resident. —a spirit which they could not do too much to discou- Mr, O'CONNELL said ho was. He regretted that rage.—(licar, hear.) Having thus disposed of the his Hon. Friend who bad interrupted him, and who had amendment, he (Sir G. Grey) must say a few words recently gone into Ireland, had got amongst a set of upon a subject touched upon by the Hon. Member for bad advisers; and he feard he would become a specimen Cork (Mr. Roche)—namely, the state of crime in Ire- of regular Tipperary landlordism. Let him beware, land. He (Sir G. Grey) would not now enter upon these for there was something not right about him. He painful details, which it would be his duty to lay before might also mention as good landlords in the same the House on an early day, upon bringing forward the county, Lord Lismore and Mr. Shadwell.— (Hear.) Bill (of which he had to-night given notice), for the pre- Doubtless there were others ;he only wished their vention of crime in certain parts of that country, He number was greater. In con c l us i on, he must charge must, however, say th a t h e cou ld corro b orate the state Ministers w i t h h aving all owed eighteen months to pass ment of the Hon. Member for Cork, that the allegations without doing anything for the benefit of Ireland. Why contained in the public press in respect to crime did not had they put the Hon. Barone t , the Memb er f or Tam apply to all parts of I re l an d. H e jo i ned w i th the Hon. wort h, ou t o f , w he n t hey had proposed n o thi ng Member in his deni a l o f t h e assert i on that all the Irish, to re li eve Ireland, and now did the same as he had from the north to the south and from the east to the done, by bringingforward a Coercion Bill ? Let the west, were assassin s . —(H ear, h ear. ) O n the contrary, H ouse , e specially the d strong declarations the present n e w Members , re fer to " Han-. her Majesty's Go vernmen t b e li eve d t h at there weremany sar d ? '' and see the s had made, only eighteen months ago, against parts of Ireland in which life and property were both as Ministers Ireland and let the new ' Members beware of safe and secure as in any other portion of the dominions coercing . ; of the Crown.—(Hear.) With regard to those remedial giving . . their support to such a proposal. He must ax measures which th e H em Member f o r Meath (ed i e press his conviction that the people of Ireland and their Grattan) and the Hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Roche) sentiments had no weight here ; there was no know seemed to think ought to accompany any measure of ledge of, or sympathy with, their distresses. On the coercion, he must observe that neither one nor the other question of coercion, he should think he was acting of thoSe Hon. Members had done strict justice to the with the grossest inconsistency, if, after opposing the Speech from the Throne; for the very passage following measure brought forward by Sir R. Peel, he should now that paragraph to which the amendment has been moved support a similar proposition because .made by the pre. states that " her Majesty views with the deepest anxiety sent Ministers. and interest the present condition of Ireland, and she Sir B. HALL had hoped, that after the speech of the recommends to the consideration of Parliament mea- Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the Home De sures which, with due regard to the rights of property, partment, the amendment of the Hon. and Learned may advance the social condition of the people, and tend Member for Meath would have been withdrawn. He to the permanent improvement of that part of the believed that it would have been withdrawn but for the United Kingdom."—(Hear ' hear.) One o f t h ose mea- speech of the Hon. and Learned Member who had just sures, he could assure both his Hon. Friends who had sat down. He (Sir B. Hall) would ask that Hon. and respectively moved and seconded the amendment, was Learned Member what he had done for the people of that which had relation to the question of the individual Ireland ?—(Hear, hear.) The English people had sent rights of landlord and tenant—a subject which had over eight or ten millions sterling to recover their dis deeply engaged the attention of his Noble Friend the tress, and that immense sum had been promptly and Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland and of the Government, and cheerfully granted. The Hon. and Learned Member it was intended to submit a measure on that subjebt to for Kilkenny held a distinguished position among his Parliament on an early day. At the same time, looking countrymen, and, instead of doing anything practical to at the Bill introduced last session by the Hon. Member relieve their distress, he had sanctioned the use of lan for Rochdale (Mr. S. Crawford) he (Sir G. Grey) could gunge towards them of the most inflammatory nature.— not but remark that the question was not free from dif- (Hear, hear.) Language inciting to murder and assassi ficulty, and he could not think that the question of per- nation had been used in his presence, and that, too, by manency of tenure, which by the Bill alluded to would high dignitaries in his own church, and he had not, by be given to a mere tenant for life, could be word or gesture, reproved that language.—(Hear, hear.) disposed of in a short Bill, as seemed to be supposed. The Hon. and Learned Member had said that before To the subject, however, he repeated, the most anxiou s c o erc i on Bill s s h ou l d pass he would fall a victim on the and careful attention' had been directed, as the pare- floor of the Houe7e of Commons. No wonder, then, if the graph he had quoted from the Speech from the Throne Hon. and Learned Member should oppose such Elea indicated.—(llear, hear.) He did not wish now to sures, if it were only to retard his own immolation. [ anticipate the discussion of these measures in detail; Let the House only see into what state Ireland had but thus much he had felt himself bound, in justice to been brought by the agitation going on in that country. the Government and himself, to state, after the obser- One Repeal Association was bad enough, but now there vations which had fallen from the mover and seconder was no less than four. He had no hesitation in o saying of the amendment. He also must request Hon. Members that the scheme of repeal carried on by anything, . th em to suspend the expression of any opinion upon the work- from year to year, without ever coming b tba w thari ever been ing of the Irish Poor-law Act until they were in the one of the greatest political hum bugs th at verily believed, that possession of that accurate information on the subject perpetrated.—(Hear, he ar .) H motion placed on the paper by the which would very shortly be furnished to the House. had it not been fo r r the the question of repeal Nottingham, . Having done this, he must also express a hope that his Hon. Member for allowed to pass over this year as it had Hon. Friends the Members for Meath and Cork would would have been ) adopt the advice t e nd ere d t o th em b y t h e H on. M em b er i n form e red sati)ar y! s But for that moti on , h e had made up his mind to put a questi on (H ea r, hear. for West Surrey (M r . D rummon d), an d not press t h e i r ( Si•r B. ch should put repeal at once upon its merits bef ore amendment, but concur in car r yi ng u p t o th e f oo t o f the w h Throne a unanimous add ress i n answer t o th e Speech t he l House of Commons. — (Hear, hear.) He b e li eved that with the lion. and Learned Member for Kilkenny with which the new Parliament had been opened. In it was a mere facia de parley. He remembered to have -- conclusion, he could not but add a hope that on men - enter heard a m an—whom he admitted to have been one of the ing upon the business of a new Parliament every condition of greatest men of his day—(Hear, hear)--he sure intended for the improvement of the atef Hon. and Learned Member fo r e meant the • d with the absence of those Cork —state that he Ireland would be recei ve would lay his head opponents, upon the block if r motives which frequently influenced political ea candid carried within six months from repeal were not and that the prevailing feeling would be to guy prosperity lion. Still the same the date of his Obtlervae place the attention to measures intended to humbug • assertions were made still the d on the most permanent and same carried On in the f ' and happiness of Ireland ace of the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) T enduring basis.—(Cheers.) . 1 , he Honourable Baro net Mr. J. O'CONNELL said he could not hold out to enumerated the four political associations • • now existing the Right Hon. B a ronet, the Rome Secretary, any hope in Ireland, and quoted speecho f that the Address in answer to the Speech from the Learned Member for li . es the Hon. all ilkenn Throne would pass with unanimity; for, even if the or three of those s y, made in each. In two amendment now moved was got rid of as suggested, a had vowed t • eeches p the lion. and Learned Member o die on the second amendment would be moved in relation to the before he pe • floor of the House of Commons promised Coercion Bill. That was a proposition which All he permitted a Coercion Bill to pass for Ireland. would necessarily awaken an angry discussion. Her (Sir B. Hall) could say was, that if such a catas- Majesty's Government were much mistaken if trophe should happen, his Hon. Friend the Member for they Finsbury thought the remnant of provisions in the Gover y would be in readiness to hold the necessary defies would suffice to inset the distress • nment inquiry. ---(Hear, and laughter.) As to coercive e ress which mea continue in some districts where the must sures, alth oug h h e had voted against them in 1832, he as to render it i m p oss ibl e to collect the Povert y was such should now, looking at the murders committed in Ire what hope could be entertained that oor-rates. Then land every day, be prepared to strengthen the bands of meet and combat with the miser ds th e poor-law could Government in every possible way.— (Hear, hear.) He le ease which prevailed? The last' e taution, and dis- believed that there was a class of men in Ireland — he d d — o a Commissioners showed that 3,000 0 return of the Relief meant the Roman Catholic priests—who m i g ht msoiginclined. receiving rations relief, and th , 00 of.population were great deal to prevent violence if they ' I!er against the of these rations ld at the minimum expense He did not mean to insinuate anything wou amount t o knew that among them remind the Government 7,000,0004 Let him priesthood as a body, because be but ho saw a sad of the state exemplary men, of alarm which ex- were a great man isted in 1834 in England, when condUct of the priests of 1847 and poor -rate to the amount it was' shown that a contrast between t he pursued by the priests of 1762. In of 7,000 000/ would be that which had been , • necessary for to meet the distress whic h so l emn fast was ordered the success of then prevailed in this portion that year a the priests published an address of the realm. Irelan d his Majesty's arms, and . Was a poorer country, and what in the most emphatic terms, to must be the feel ' exhorting the people, ings awakened by the declaration that the preservation of law and order. Would fo God they 7,000,000/. was required in the chof poor-ra te to . ape a .h d could hear of such exhortations now.—(Hear, hear.) keep her peo le from p starvation? He held in his an most frightful d e t a il s o f the extent of the They had heard lately of one of a very di fferent ohs (Waging dis - .