The Sun. — London, England, 1847-02-05 00:00:00

SUN 1 9 N DON, FRIDAY EVENING-, FEBRUARY 5 1847. 622/. per mile would pay 3} per cent., and pay an aggregate total of 16,00/. But he takes the Arbroath and Forfar at only 9,004/. per mile, consequently, taking that as the basis, after deducting money paid to Government, a net return of 702/. would give 1 per cent. profit ; 800!. would give 2 per cent. ; 999/. would give 3 per cent; 1,055/. would give 4 per cent. ; 1,153/. would give 6 per cent. ; 1,2291. would give 7 per cent. ; 1,335/. would give 8 per cent. ; 1,4231. would give 9 per cent. ; and 1,521/. would give 10 per cent. Such as instrument as this could not fail of going to the length of improving the country, and bringing capital into Ireland, and call that into use that already existed there, while the poor rates and the county cess would be greatly relieved, since they would not employ only the 110,000 labourers now en gaged on the useless works, but would employ npwards of 200,000 in the construction of these railways. He did not wish to overstate the advantages of this measure, but he did say, that if railways could be constructed, as had been shown for 1701. an acre at twenty years' purchase, the advantage was amazingly increased, and that the funds of the country would rise. He had assumed his date, on the calculation, that these railways would cost .600/. or 1,5001. per mile, whereas, he believed, that they could be made for at least 1001. lower, and he believed that at least 300 miles of ground had been already purchased , This would g i ve an expenditure for the payment of land of 1 450,0001., and that would form another suns to be added to those which he had already paid. and which would swell the amount of 240,0001., which would come to the relief of the Poor. He now came to that portion of the measure which affected the p u blic revenue. He had given an exp enditure of 16, 000,000/. on a security of 51,000,0001., to make 1,500 miles of railroad, and it was alleged, by a Member of the Government the other night, that this would dis tress commerce and disturb the money market. lie did not think that the expenditure of 1,900,000/. per &n -oun could have that effect. He bad consulted several gentle men, who ought to be well informed, as to the state of the money_market, and, amongst others, the Member for West Essex, and all had agreed that it would net have that effect. Did the expenditure of 15,0(10,000/. in 1835, which was raised for the compensation of the West Indian slave-owners disturb the money-market? They contrived to pay 3,000.0004 in the year 1835. We found that during the year before, the price of the Three per Cent. Consols was 891. The day before this money was paid, the price of Consols was 90/. 155., and the price of Reduced Three per Cents. was 901. 12s. 6d. The Contract was taken for the Reduced Three per Cents. at 8 8 1 . 13s. 4d., and at 751. for the Three per Cent. Consols. The whole of the contract was taken at 90/. 2s. 6d., the Consols being 13s. 7d. above par with the long annuities, so that the whole of the contract was taken 11. 4s. 3d. to the advantage of those who had contracted the loan for 15,000,0001. Did this at all affect the funds ? Certainly not ; for en the day after the contract was completed Consols stoo at 91, and is the year that followed they had improved to 2/.171. 6d., and in the year after that to 4/. 14e. Had they not had the experience of the lean of 15,000,000 k ? And it should be remembered that this money was not raised to be disbursed in the_ country, in the digging of canals, the formation of rail -7,131, or the building of mills ; but was all sent out of it. But the money which ho proposed to raise was to be expended in relieving the distress and in rewarding the industry within the Country. Lord Bacon had made a just remark-that "muck must be spread before it could fertilise ;" and it was the same with industry. They had expended seventy millions a y ear in t he support of foreign war, and to uphold the power of the State, and he allowed that such a course might depress the taonvy market, but then the whole of the money was sent out of the country without their being a single pound returned. - ( Bear, hear.) But did the expenditure of 7,000,0001., w hich had in bygone years been employed in the working of silver mines depress the market. Did the capital "gaged in the silver wines of Bolanos, in their Candonga, Cita Branca, their Brazilian and their Capiato As sociation, sad used e ven for the working of mines in the West Indies, de w press the money wake? But he would nut go through the long list of the twenty-three mining companies through whose agent y this capital was sunk in the year 1825, never, never to lie returned . (Cheers.) He thought that upwards of 13 ,000,0001. had been sent to relieve the necessities of Ohio and Kentucky, and where were they ? Where we re the mil lions th a t h a d been sent to Portugal? and the more than two millions that had been sent to spain ? and which were only now to be seen in the funds of Passive and Deferred Annui ties. Had there not been immense sums spent in America in tail waYas and did they not all realise the outlay ? for L "e believed that there was not one among them which did not repay the money expended upon thews. Yet all these, so far as Great Britain was concerned, were dis bursements out of pocket, and disposed of out o f the countr y . But he must beg leave to say, that whilst he was calling upon his own country to lend to Ireland 16,000,000 sterling at a reasonable rate of interest, without any charge or expense, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he advanced to Ireland a loan to be employed on public works, did not stand in the same position as the private capitalist. The private capitalist was restricted to the bare interest he received for his money, while the public officer derived many other advantages besides his interest. When they looked back to the last four years, and reflected what an expenditure of 13,000,000/ year in railway enterprise had dune in increas ing the revenue of the country-in the excise, in the customs duties, in the consumption of beer, of malt, of spirits, and of tobacco peculiarly the consumption of railway lahourers he thought they must be of opinion with him, that in directly the State would be a sleeping partner in the advantages to be derived from Trials railways. They had it stated in evidence by Mr. Peto, that at first he found drunkenness amongst his men was a great drawback in the completion of his contracts, and he accordingly re stricted each man in his employ to a gallon of strong beer a day.-(Laughter.) Now one gallon of strong beer gave a quarter of a peek of malt consumed by one railway labourer ; and, setting aside what his wife and family might consume-setting aside what came to the revenue in tea, tobacco, and sugar, he paid Si. 4s. a year in the excise duties upon his beer alone. 'Well, let him see how this would work out. Upon looking at a calculation of the excise duties in Scotland and Ireland, he found that in Scotland the excise duties gave 1/. Os. 3d. per head upon the whole population, whilst in Ireland there was only 3s. I*. paid per head. This, after deducting the soap returns, and such duties as were not paid in Ire. land, gave a difference upon the excise in favour of Scotland of 16s. I id. per head. Now he was not going to pretend to say, as was calculated by Mr. Stanley, of the Board of Works, some ten years ago, that the effect of making 1,500 miles of railway in Ireland would be to bring the population of the counties up to the level o' Scotland, but he thought he might say with great confidence, that out of 550,000 labourers, 110,000 would be raised to the average level of Scotland ; and if they calculated that number at 16s. lid. it would give an annual sum of 440,000/., which divided into three and a-half per cent. interest would represent a capital of . 1 2,600,0001. Well, but still there wore the Customs duties. It was not unfair to suppose that the construc tion of a railway would increase the Customs as well as the Excise duties. He was aware that there was great difficulty in getting at the Customs' duties of Ireland and Scotland, because a large proportion of them were paid in this country, but an estimate had b een made, not by himself but by an excellent authority upon such matters, and from that estimate it would appear that the gross amount of custom paid in Scotland averaged 13s. per head. While the gross amount paid in Ireland only averaged 6s. 2id., making a difference of 6s. 9id. The increase of the customs would, he calculated, represent an annual aura of 202,0001., which, at 3i per cent., would give a sum of six millions sterling. Well, then, if he calcu lated, and it would be perfectly fair to do so, that the employment would continue after the railway was'com pleted and in full vigour, he would have a right to say that ther e wou l d be an increase in the revenue o f no less tnan 642,000/., which at 3i per cent., would give a ca pital of nine millions sterling. Now he be lieved' there were good grounds for thinkinv that, after the execution of these various lines of railway, the employment would be con tinued by the improvements which the railway would introduce. It was calculated that ten men were em ployed per mile in maintaining the permanent way, ex clusive of the artificers engaged in building carriages, and the driving and. manufacture of engines, while it was estimated that the improvements that naturally grew out of agriculture from the construction of a rail way would absorb six men per mile. But when they recollected what railways had done in this contry-when they looked at the large towns which had grown up upon the South •Western Railway, and the extension of Southampton, which had since the ripening of the railway nearly doubled its size and its docks-it was not too much to suppose that every mile of a new railway would absorb sixty of the men who had been engaged in its construction.-(Hear, hear.) Take the railway, for instance, to Valencia harbour. They had the evi dence of Mr. Walker, the Admiralty engineer, that sooner or later Valencia harbour must become the American packet station of this country. They had also the authority of Lord Liverpool, who said-little thinking at the time that railways would be carried to the extent they had been-about the year 1827, that Valencia must eventually become the point of d..parture for America. Before, however, the prediction could come to pass, a railway of one hundred and ninety five miles in length would have to be made, and innu merable would be the towns and improvements it would give rise to. It might be said-he knew it would be urged lsnn:le-that if Irish enterprise could not walk without crutches, Irish e n t er p r i se mus t b e a ll ow ed to fall ; but be had that day received a communication from Mr.MOSs. of Liverpool, one of the l early promoters of the Liverpool and Manchester Rai been for a loan of 100,0 9' 0 ) 0/. to the effs•ct, that had it not advanced i by the Government of that day, he believed the pool and Manchester Railway never would have hee vfer paid.-(Cheers.) But there was another argument that would be used. He had heard, not in that House it was true, n atic they elsewhere, l that whenever loans were made to Ire were repaid. Grosser ignorance neverova 3 displayed never d than was disp la y ed b y those wh o had made a t ye hat statement. True it was that one million sterling which was advanced had never been returned, but unfortunately this was not owing to a disposition to repudiate the debt, but to certain religious prejudices which could not be got rid of.-(llear, hear.) They had it upon the authority of Lord Devon, that so far from the loans to Ireland not having been repaid, the truth was it had been the custom of England to lend her money at usury prices, but still even at these prices two-thirds of all the grants had been returned. A circumstance had come to his knowledge within the last few days about the Agricultural Bank of Ireland, whose h, ad quarters were held in Cork. It appeared that no less a sum than 900,0001. was out at interest upon the joint notes of two tenants together, greater part of them in sums not exceeding 20L, but to the astonishment of all the bankers and assignees of the company, when the affairs came to be wound up, such was the good faith of the little people connected with the concern, that not a shilling was lost. -(Cheers.) He had another instance of the good faith of Irishmen in matters of loans, which had been re lated to him by Mr. Prosser, the engineer. Mr. Prosser some years ago, went to the counties of Limerick, Wa terford, and Cork, to construct wooden railways, but the labourers were so ignorant that he could not get them to work at first. Mr. Prosser, however, reasoned with them, and, one by one, they saw the utility of the iuvention, and readily entered upon the work. Some of them, however, were in so wretched a condition, being without clothing to cover their nakedness, that many of them applied to him for loans of 205., 255., and 30-,, which he readily advanced ; and in no one instance wad the money not repaid.-(Hear, hear.) Those who said, then, that if they made their loans to the Irish people, they would be leading money that Til would never be repaid, were scandalous calumniators. — (Cheers.) He had forgotton to state, that, originally hi: intention was to propose that the repayment of the money should commence seven years after a certificate should be sign'd that the railway was in operation, and the whole to be paid from that time in instalments, running to the end of twenty years. When, however, the interest and profit of money was paid, to all intents and purposes. the debt did not exist, and, therefore, it did not matte. when the money was repaid, or how long it took to repay it; hut upon consulting with the monied interest, he wa, told that the repayment of the money by instalments would create confusion in the dividends, and therefore it woul,, Le much more advisable if it were specified that the money should be repaid in thirty years.—(Hear, hear.) He had heard at different times that there was danger of outrage in Ireland. They had heard a story oftentimes repeated, and as often refuted, that the peasantry were buying arms, with which to rise up in rebellion. He. for one, denied it. When he read accounts of ten bodies out of eleven persons, lying dead in one house—of dogs and sv , ins wallowing over their dead bodies—of th dead being denied the common decencies of a burial, to save the price of the coffin to sustain the living—h. could not help expressing his surprise that they had been so long patient.—(Cheers.) He could blame them not ; and so far from expressing discontent at anything they might have done under their long suffering, he said let them rather till the bellies of the starving Irish people with go, , d meat—wholesome mutton, good bread, good strong beer—and fill their pockets with Eng lish gold. Let them assist to cover their beds with the blankets of Witney—to clothe the men with the fustian, of Manchester—their wives and daughters with the cotton prints of Stockport, and ribbons of Coventry, and with his head he could answer for the loyalty of the Irish people.—(Cheers.) Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, I can have no hesitation in offer ing my tribute to the patriotism which has induced the Noble Lord to bring forward this motion, and to the ability which he has displayed, both in framing his plan and explaining it to the House, as well as to the zeal which he has shown for the benefit of the people of Ireland, and in behalf of that sympathy which, as he truly asserts, must be the best cement of the union of the two kingdoms.—(Hear, hear.) While Ido not hesitate to pay that tribute to my Noble Friend, I could wish that his plan had been such a one that I could at once have agreed to its proposition, and adopted it in aid of the measures which her Majesty's Government have brought forward for the relief of Ireland. I can assure my Noble Friend that I entirely believe in the sincerity with which he has asserted that his plan was intended to aid and assist, not to interfere with and hinder, the plans which we have introduced ; and, entirely believing in that sincerity, no absurd or petty feelings on my part that this plan is not the original plan of the Government, but had come from a member of a different party, could, under any circumstances, induce me to refrain from adopting it.—( Hear, hear.) But, in fact, the matter which my Noble Friend has brought forward—though not the plan he has to-night proposed—has been for some time under the consideration of her Majesty's Government ; and we were obliged, therefore, to look at it in its different aspects, with a view to the adoption of some plan with respect to railroads which might be useful to the country, or which might be suited to the present state of destitution and want, I may say famine, in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Now, in considering each a plan, I would say but a few words with regard to its fitness as a plan suited to the general state of Ireland. My Noble Friend near sue, the First Commissioner of Woods and Forests ( Lord Morpeth), some years ago, brought forward a plan with respect to railways which I though: then, and still think, was one that would be of essential advantage to Ireland. The plan proceeded on a totally different principle from that em bodied in the Bill of my Noble Friend opposite. It went on the principle of railways being formed by Government, and conducted by persons under their control, the amount thus expended to produce four per cent. iuterest, any additional the in terest to be applied either to the extensi on of railways, or diminution of debt upon those existing. According to that plan the object would have been attained which many may still think of great importance,—viz., a Government control over the railways of that part of the United Kingdom with respect to the conveyance of stores, and with respect to the direction of the lines, and the places to which they should ..o.—(Hear, hear.) In a ll these res p ects the Government C om missioners' thought it would be advanta geous to have them under the control of Government ; and many persons indeed think that the plan adopted in France in this respect is superior to that followed in this country.— (Hear, hear.) But that is not the plan of my Noble Friend. There have, indeed, been periods in the course of some years when 15,000,000/. of money might have been required to ex ecute lines of railway over several hundred miles of country ; but, of course, any such plan as that would not be now se re quisite as it was when these railways commenced. Speaking of the proposal of the Noble Lord as a general plan, I would say that it is not advisable for Government to step out of its way is interfere with the general adaptation of capital to rail ways, and to favour one set of companies, having set on foot particular railways, rather than others.—( Hear, hear.) The very instances my Noble Friend adduced of the North British Railway being at 401. premium, and the Great Southern and Western Railway being at 6 per cent. discount, were just il lustrations, showing how inexpedient it would be for Govern ment to interfere.—( Hear.) What my Noble Friend has quoted is just the rate of the market ; it is the rate which people laying out money think is the specific value of the shares of the one company and of the other. Now, for G overnm ent to interfere so as to raise the price of the ;hares of one company, and thus give them an advantage in the market, and to divert capital from other railways, the one set of undertakings having only Government assistance to support them, would, in ordinary circumstances, be a departure from the functions of Government, and an undue interference with the application of capital, favouring certain parties to the de triment of others, where both were equally deserving.—( Hear.) But the present plan is brought forward, and, I think, will fall to be considered, in its application to the present distressed state of Ireland. It is, therefore, with a view to the present distressed state of Ireland that we are now to consider it. Some time ago the railway companies of Ireland had a meeting in Dublin, when they agreed to make a representation to the Lord-Lieutenant. *fhe Lord-Lieutenant transmitted that re presentation to me, and it was to this effect :—Supposing the railway Acts which were passed in 1845.6 to require 15,000,000/. to execute the railroads which they severaly authorised, that the Government in three years should advance 5,000,000/., the rail way companies engaging to advance the other 10,000,0001. Now that was not the plan of my Noble Friend, though it rested essentially on the same principle. We male inquiry as to the effect of this proposition ; and let me observe, we stood in tke position of laving before us the expenditure of large sums of money, partly on loan, partly on grant, from the Treasury of the empire, in order to alleviate the extreme dis tress prevailing in Ireland. We could not, of coarse, suppose that there was a boundless mine of wealth at our disposal ; and we were bound to consider, seeing that the demands upon us must be large, and indeed could not fail to be large, in what manner the means at our command could be applied to the relief of Ireland, the wants of which were most urgent and most pressing.—(Hear, hear.) New, my Noble Friend ran have no difficulty in agreeing with me, after the horrible scenes to which he adverted towards the end of his speech, that what was most distressing in that country was the want of food, especially in a number of the most destitute and most remote parts of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Bnt the application of money to the purposes of these railway companies, to the formation of railways, could not meet that particular object. ( Hear.) It may be, and, indeed, there can be no doubt of the fact, that a railway is of great advantage to the country through which it passes. I can agree with the Noble Lord as to those advantages ; without entering into his calculations, for those calculations I certainly shall not dispute when I recollect that my Noble Friend has bad the assistance of the Hon. Member for Sunderland and of Mr. Laing in drawing them up. Without disputing those calcula tions, I perfectly agree with him as to the ultimate benefits to be derived from railways. But the question I am considering is, how the application of a. large sum of money, given by the Treasury, is to relieve those who are immediately pressed by destitution ?—( Hear.) It is obvious the first thing railway companies do—for on this point I examined some of these who waited on me as a deputation—the first thing they do when a railway is to be constructed, is to go to certain contractors, to get them to contract for certain parts of the line. I asked what those contractors did, and whether they had any control over them as to the persons to be employed. They said they had no control over this matter ; these contractors went to sub-contractors, who had the employment of the labourers, thus removing from the railway company by two degree, those who were immediately employed in making the line. I asked what conditions they made with those contractors as regarded the parties to be employed; and they said that the condi tion was that they should be able-bodied men, and that after the first two or three weeks spent at the trade, they should not have less than Is. 6d. a day, but no further agreement was made. Now, it is obvious that if the Government were to advance money to the railway companies, those companies would contract with contractors, these again with sub-con tractors, which sub-contractors would engage the labourers for the line ; of course, engaging only able-bodied men—those fit to do their work. In the next place, they would engage them only at the time when they wanted them, and at the particular place where they required their labours. If there was a village in great distress, perhaps in some distant part of the country, of course they would not consider that they had anything to do with the distress and destitution in that village.—( Hear, hear ) The old men and the women of a district , whose la bo ur was Of no avail, would not be employed in such work, even though they were starving ; they would not come within the province of these contractors, who would naturally employ those persons only whose labour was worth the money given them. There fore, it appeared to us, that for the purpose of relieving distress, employment on railways, considering the persons who would be employed, was not the best mode that could be adopted. In the next place, looking at the map, we found, what it was natural to expect, that the counties through which those railways passed were the least distress ed in Ireland; they were the counties whi were most flourishing in times of prosperity, and which suffered least in times of distress. Therefore, the system of railroad labour does not apply to those parts of the country that are particularly distressed, and to which our attention ought to be m las e t n y t e ; ar a:acl , croahiedfisyhdasiele)eeetenducd(eHr e t a h r e , ehoenasri.d)eraTtihoins n u a f at t t h er e o fo f r a m ss e t r st G i_n o g y r e a ro il - - p e ez o p rd r i es o e f n t t h ed e P th a there particularlyare s o e n v e e ra inl instances n i w n h !t h e their answers to a er I have re- Treasury under the late Government gave applications from railway companies. In the p p ferred to they said :—" Acquaint the par ties that my Lords d o not consid er it a d v i sa bl e t o make special advances to railwa y companies who h ave un d er t a ken to make railways on private account, exclusively for individual advantag e ; that it is open to those co m p an i es to raise money by calls on their subscribers, or by loans ; and that, on the application to the commis sioners for Exchequer loans, their claim to receive a loan from the public fu n d s on the same conditions and securities as the undertakers of the works of the same description will be duly considered." Now, I believe the late Government, as well as the present,maturelyapplications. I c o n sidered those I have understood from the late Chancellor of the Exchequer that they wer e so cons id ere d, an d I h a ve no doubt the reasons which induced them to refuse were reasons not very different from those I have now stated to the House. It did not appear to them that the allowance to railways were the best means by which the distress could be relieved. Now, with respect to the distress a t present ex i st i ng i n I re l an d. My Noble Friend's calculatio ns could hardly promise g t e h n a e t ral t l h y er a e cc w u o ra u t l e d ; h b o ut su l eh thnk h a i grea e t t amount oso of employment as he held out when he sp oke of miles of railways and sixty men employed on each mile. Of course, p ar t s of the line would be sooner finished than others. Lord G. BENTINCK had calculated 200 per mile, but took sixty as an average. Lord J. RUSSELL thought the difference immaterial. With respect to another matter, great inconvenience had been found from railway works going on for a time, and then alto gether ceasing, in consequence of the railway company finding it advisable to do so. It is therefore impossible that the persons who are in the greatest destitution, and who are spread all over the country in the south and west, could de rive any material advantage from the expenditure of this money. You may call the p resen t works useless, if you will, and no doubt they would be useless, except for the purpose of giving wages to the men who are employed on them, and who get those wages for the supply of their wants. And the system ' proposed now is a system for giving to those perms moat. ing to 580,000, the means by which they could purchase fcod. This seems to ore to be the chief objec t y ou ou g ht to aim at. There are other objects of a more permanent nature ; but the present object is to do in Ireland what you do in England, by means of the poor-s ates, in a time of distress. When that pressure on the poor-rate comes, you do not ask whether the persons employed are employed at useful work or not. Your object is to give them food to maintain themselves in life. Now, this is an object towards which the railway (hetsysem can do very little.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to general improvement of Ireland, I agree generally that the establish ment of railroads in Ireland would be of immense advantage, and I do hope to see railroads established in that country.— ( Hear, hear.) Nor do I say altogether that in every casepublic assistance ought to be refused ; but this I say, that having a case of extreme destitution to provide for, I do not think it would be wise to give 16,000,000/. of the public money to the promotion of railroads. Ido not believe that it would be a wise expenditure ; and, considering the vast demands upon us, if we do so we shall be obliged to check other expenditure more immediately necessary.—( Hear, hear.) I shall not oppose the bringing in of the Bill.—( Cheers.) I have understood, from Mr. Speaker, that there is no objection in pointof form to the Bill, provided it does not introduce money clauses, that would re nuire a previous committee. Ido not oppose the introduction of the Bill ; but let my Noble Friend understand me, so that I may not be accused, afterwards, as I hope I never shall be accused, of deception.—(Hear, hear.) My opinion is, that it would not be wise for the Government to adopt this scheme ; but when we are asked to go into Committee for the purpose of voting money in pursuance of this object, I think that there will be but two courses for the Government to pursue—either to adopt the scheme entirely as their own, and make themselves responsible for it, and carry it through as their own; or, declining to be any party to the scheme, to refuse to give their assent to the proposal of my Noble Friend. —( Hear, hear.) When a grant of money is proposed from the Treasury, the responsible Ministers of the Crown are obliged to take certain steps regarding it, and when the proper time comes for doing se en this occasion, I cannot say that I shall be prepared to assume the responsibility of giving au assent to the plan of the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear. ) Mr. B. OSBORNE came there that evening prepared to support the Noble Lord's motion. He thought the Noble Lord who had given his voice against the Bill had not acted fairly, in allowing the Bill to be printed, and then opposing it in Committee. Now, the Hon. Member for Lynn was eriti tied to greater praise than any other Member, for having brought forward a great measure for the redemption of the country. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government, although he said that the subject of Irish railways had been under their consideration, did not say that he was prepared to bring in any measure on the subject. The Noble Lord concluded his speech by contradicting the very first proposition with which he commenced his speech. He said that he did not think it fair to advance so much money for the purposes of railways, because it would interfere with private enterprise, and then he concluded by saying that at a future time the state might per haps render some assistance to the railways. The Irish people expected that the Government had been put in their places not to filch little schemes from individual Members of the House—a suggestion as to the poor-law from one Hon. Member, soup kitchens from a Quaker, and so on. They ought to come forward and adopt some bold and com prehensive plan, like that suggested by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn. He would not sit down without expressing his great admiratien for the great talents. displayed by him in the very able and practical speech which he had delivered that Cheers. ) Mr. e RO BUCK Noble r e E w ereLionrsdu insuperable et a rt s :b cs el u eh i quite objections surprised r t l h s e e d Gto a o t vt t eh h re e n nam e e o en u a r ts. s u e r pursuedelioef saidth e e t b h v y a e t n th i t n h e g. himself read semhe ms g . emfi liming, Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, and yet he had allowed the he ire w H o e u l ( d A t i e r n theßill Roebuck)ltiobebret liberty introducedto objected op P o t o s ae t n h li e t the House why be objected to it. The Noble Lord had pro nosed to spend 16,000,000/. in making railroads in Ireland. Now, in ordinary times that work was left to private enterprise, and the capital requisite for such works was always obtained from the surplus wealth of the people. The Noble Lord the Member for Lynn proposed not to ask the rich to come forward with their money, but he asked the Noble Lerd at the head of the Government to tax the people of England, in order that they might apply the produce of that tax to Ireland. He obj scted to the people of England reservingsangde t ° being taxed, for the purpose of employing their capital in any speculation whatever. He was of opinion that the people of England should be taxed for the purposes of the Government, but they ought riot, under any consideration, to be taxed for the purposes of speculation. He had a right to ask every English representative if he would allow his constituents to be taxed for such a purpose, and to such an extent, as that pro posed by the Noble Lord. They were already told that 9,000,0 , 01. would be required for the measures of the Govern ment. From a return that had been laid upon the table of the House, it appeared that presentments had also lately been made to the tune of 2,500,000/., and a Bill was about to be brought in to sanction that expenditure. Let Hon. Members just add these things together, and see how the matters stood. There was the 9,000,0001. already proposed, and the 2,500,0001. about to be sanctioned—that would make a total of 11,500,000/. Then the Noble Lord came forward and pro posed to take 26,000,000 1 ., that would make together, on the lowest calculation, 37,500,000/. The ordinary sum collected for the purposes of the revenue during the year was about 5b,000,000/., and more than one-half of that sum had to be placed to the credit of the national debt ; so that the case stood thus :—There were 8,000,000 of persons requiring for their own benefit a sum equal to more than one half of the whole expenditure of the Government. This was all very fine; Gentlemen might talk of comprehensive schemes, or accuse others of malignity or mendacity and ignorance, if they attempted to make any state ments or express any opinions upon the subject. But the question to be considered was, what would the people of Eng land say upon the subject when the tax-gatherer came round? —( Hear, hear.) The state of England ought not to be over looked. In the very constituency which he had the honour to represent, there were persons in such a wretched state that they were obliged to tear up their clothes and those of their children into rags, and sell them as such at 2d. per lb., ix order to ob tain a meal, bnt when such tales of suffering and want were told of the poor wretches in Somersetshire, they excited no sym pathy in the hearts of Hon. Members, but the moment a tale of Irish distress was brought forward the House resounded with loud cheers. The Noble Lord pledged for the truth of what he said, he (Mr. Roebuck) did not know what value others might attach to it—his own head. He pledged his head that he would fill the bellies of all the Irish with good mutton and sound ale, clothe all the men with the clothes of Manchester, and bedizen their wives with the ribbons of Coventry ; and, in addition to all this, fill their pockets with English gold.— (Laughter.) He would ask, in sober seriousness, was it not a sad exhibition to be made by any person in that House, and who was supposed to know the state of the population of England ? was it not extraordinary for any Hon. Member to get up in that House, and say that he would feed the Irish people with " mutton and ale" when the English people were not able to get either the one or the other?—(Hear, hear.) What would be said if some Scotch Member were to get up and say, the swolern,: people iecelteara ants Ireland, tve w h,epte i , t oyta h h: ed ‘ eir m eaf o u rnmto t dom t e o ts toei a ps aantdmryoaeplHeHef proper er ' n ' people of Scotland must be fed at the expense of the English e duty, England.—(Hear , intended, Member d a t n ehhd d ee : —wpaGsr:Ouipnl Government ras Englishner n, likeh aeen hear.) r t aol)inke' should uro f el o: vd- r t was bat fair.— (Cheers.) He was glad to hear that, be cause he thought Hon. Members agreed with him; and if it be true what he had said, then the end would be a general scram ble for property; it would be like throwing all the property into one " Hotch-potch," and then having a general scramble for the whole of it.—(Hear, hear.) It was quite clear that the measure was not adapted to meet the existing distress of the country; the whole scheme was nothing more than a landlord's scheme, in order to enable them to obtain higher rents for their property, or to sell to te Government for enormous prices.—("No, no," and ironical cheers.) Hon. Members might say, " No, no," but he was determined, if the Bill should ever go so far as the Committee, he would propose a clause to the effect that no Irish landlord, being a Member of either House of Parliament, should receive a single fraction of the money to be advanced for the purchase of land belong ing to them through which the State-made railways should pass.—(Hear, hear.) He was sorry that the Noble Lord had not at once refused his assent to the measure. He was anxious that the division should have taken place that night, and so have got rid of the measure at once and for ever. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government would one day come down and say that he could not support the measure, and the whole concern would go off at once like the snuff of a candle; and the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, would have the gratification of having made a very long three hours' speech, of indulging in the brief glorification of having proposed a measure bold anal comprehensive to all intents and purposes. The Noble Lord could not move another step without the per ,nission of the Government, and he moat cordially hoped that the Government would at once put a stop to the further pro gress of the measure. The House, he was sure, might have been much better employed than in listening for the last three hours to a proposition which every body knew would end in smoke, and the whole thing would be dropped, and never be heard ef any more.—( Hear, hear. ) Alderman THOMPSON said, that if the Noble Lord at the head of the Government had Mused to allow the Bill to be read a first time, he would have been acting unfairly to wards the country, especially after the very able, eloquent, and practical speech made upon the subject by the Noble Lord who introduced the measure. The Hon. and Learned Mem ber for Bath had erroneously stated that the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn had proposed to tax the people of England. He proposed no such thing, he did not propose to tax the people to the amount of a single shilling. All that be asked was to lend the national creditor 16,000,0001. upon good and ample secnrits, upon good interest. He certainly thought the plan of the Noble Lord much more rational than that of the Gove , nment, who proposed to advance 8,000.000/. and re ceive back 10s. in the pound en that sum.—(Loud cheers.) He felt convinced that when the monied interest out of doors had heard the scheme of the Noble Lord, they would consider his measure to be both sound and practical.—(Cheers.) The reason why private enterprise had not succeeded in I r eland as in England was, that the gentry and landlords of that country were induced to become subscribers to the several un dertakings, on the expectation of receiving their rents, which had never been paid, and on the sale of their land which had never been purchased by the companies.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the remarks of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, that the railways proposed to be constructed were in the east and west of Ireland, and could not, therefore, benefit the people of the southern and the western parts, he thought that the measure would have the effect •f inducing those numerous relief committees which were about to be ap pointed, to send those able-bodied poor who might apply to them for relief, into the southern and western districts —to those parts where labour was to be obtained ; and he sin cerely hoped that the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern ment would not bring forward any technical ob jection upon the money clauses of the Bill.—( Hear.) Mr. POULETT SCROPE did 'not think that the arguments advanced by the Noble Lord (Bentinck) were s o overwhelm ingly absurd as the Hon. Member for Bath supposed, and he w as, therefore, of opinion that the course proposed by the Noble Lord (J. Russell), in not opposing the first reading of the Bill, was the proper one, inasmuch as it would give the House an oppisrtunity of considering the applicability of the measure to the circumstances of Ireland. He thought, therefore, the Noble Lord had exercised a wise discretion in not suppressing the discussion in lir:Line. As far as he (Mr. Scrope) understood Hon. Member for Bath, he believed the leading scheme of that the it would be impossible for Ireland , to Hon. Member was, that go on any long er as she was, and th at it onl y was b y a combi tion of great and ex traordinary measure s that an y cha nge or effecte, if there was a chance of permanent benefit could b Mr e P . . Scrope) put forward a measure He himself ( success. be a ttended with very great advan which he considered would pe of reand, and tage in ameliorating the condition of t he it foreowar pl d I lea a l nostrum he was taunted with putting or panacea for all the i lls to which that country was t war the Eglish poor-law as the subjected. He never pu under n which that country sole remedy for the grieforvancesd t would have any such laboured, for he never be lieved that measures to effect, unless there were other accompanying Member for Ta mworth and develop its resources. The Hon. 1 terference wi th the Hon. Member for Bath deprecated t o le in f the expediency of the ordinary sources of industry , s p oke %cotton. ow, leaving commercial enterpr ise to p rivate e thou ht that this under ordinary circumstances , he ( Mr. Scrope)g ir would be a proper course , bu t under the peculiarcumstances c in which Ireland was placed , be held it wholly inapplicable. They could never proceed by the usual rules of commercial polity, in their exertions to im p rove tho condition of . Ireland. The Noble Lord (J. Russell) t alked of g iving food in certain mei without exacting labour. Now lie willied to knout how the labourer ao s ttswpr w eae • o e asru re to be employed? He very much feared that, neither the Government nor the Irish proprietors would be able to absorb all this labour. The first condition for the devolopment of Irish private enterprise, that is to say, the security of per sonal property, was wanting, and until that was secured, private enterprise would never flow into Ireland. How could they expect it to do so? The House might recollect the statement made in a report on Ireland by Mr. Nicol, and presented to the House in 1837, which was to the effect, that to give em ployment to labour capital was wanted, and to procure capital security was necessary. That was the cycle and the order in which they proceeded. The Noble Lord (J. Russell) proposed to employ some money in drainage, and to employ another portien in a plan which he (Mr. Scrope) would like to see carried into effect—the reclamation of the waste lands. But he thought, if the Noble Lord would extend his plan to give assistance to railways, it would be a good addi tion. Under such a plan is that brought forward to-night by the Noble Lord (Bentinck), he could not but believe that it would be attended with the best results. He would ask, how could they go on to feed the people as paupers, as they did at present? The voluntary employment given by the landlords of Ireland and the proposed measures of the Noble Lord, would not absorb the labour of the country, and he could not there fore but believe that a system of railways would be very beneficial in giving employment. He did not intend to trespass upon their attention, but when such assertions were made with respect to the introduction of capital into Ireland he could not refrain frees pointing out how erroneous such principles were, for he believed by this course of proceeding, they would, in ten years hence, be in the same condition as they were at present. Colonel WOOD regretted the course taken by the Noble Lord (Bentinck) and thought the arguments used by the Noble Lord (J. Russell) in opposition to the proposal, were unanswen sble. In no country did the Government undertake the construction of railways. In France, where this interfer ence was said to exist, they were given to contractors. The people of England had already evinced their desire to assist the people of Ireland, but he thought they were not prepared to accede to the proposal of lending money for the construction of railways. He was prepared to support the Government plans for the alleviation of the distress which prevailed in that coun try, but he could not bring himself to support a measure which must ultimately fall upon the resources of this country. Mr. HUNIE thought that the Noble Lord ought to have stated the reasons why the former proposal of a similar kind had not been acceded to by the late Government. The Hon. Member then read a letter from Mr. Trevellyan to Mr. Labou chere, written on the 6th Oct., 1846, in which he stated " that Mr. Goulburn and Sir R. Peel refused the application of money for such a purpose, on the ground that it would not go to the destitute labourer, but to the speculative shareholder." There was another paragraph of that letter, continued the Hon. Member, to which he wished to call attention—namely, " that the only portiou of the money which would be applicable to the relief of the destitute, was what would be expended on the earth-works, and this consisted only of one-third of the whole, the rest being absorbed by engineering, Par liamentary, legal, and other expenses." These were the reasons which induced the late Government In refusing to accede to the application then made to them ; and be wished the Noble Lord had used those arguments in his speech, for he (Mr. Hume) believed they were perfectly convincing. There could be no doubt, if these railroads did not turn out productive, they would become a charge upon the resources of this country. The comparisons which the Noble Lord (Bentinck) made with respect to the relative returns of railroads in this country and in Ireland- were not to be depended on ; nor did ho believe that the anticipated advantages would ever be rea lised. He regretted that railroads had tint been introduced earlier into Ireland. When that question was first introdueed to the House he strongly supported the propriety of construct ing the trunk lines, believing as he did that the expenditure they would occasion would be of great advantage to the labour ing classes, as well as to the commercial and trading interests of the country. He was in a minority on that occasion ; and he believed the Irish county Members were most strenuous in their opposition to it. Now he did not use that as an argu ment why assistance should be refused now, but looking at the arguments used by Mr. Trevellyan, and the other circum stances of the cases , _ he could not bring himself to the proposal, as lie thought no benefit would result. He was, therefore, bound to regard it as the Hon. Member for Bath did—a debt which would hereafter fall upon this country. His Hon. Friend (Mr. P. Scrope) said that they were not to deal with Ireland on commercial principles, and that the laissez faire principle would not do He agreed with him that the lais.tez faire would not do there, nor anywhere else; but there was no evidence that the original causes of the present condition of that country were to be removed, and until this was the case he did not think that commercial principles ought to be consi dered as inapplicable. He was informed by several Irishmen that the removal of obstruetions to the sale of encumbered estates, and the modification of the law of entail, would lay the foundation of great future good. Ile would say, then, let the land be free, and apportioned out in from 300 to 500 acres, and he would engage that it would be sold for twenty-eight years' purchase. That was given for land during the last few months. capital would be introduced, and the purchasers • i an g d ws.uld develop the capabilities of mode of t o L f we p o t l u r t ot l h h d c e ei h s n e e , il h f e e e w n d o u t l h d a s t a i y t , would the give commercialprincip instantaneous le t b o h p y e er t c a h o t i iin in t a r o o y d d . the lu b t e h s e t mmevaanntsimoef, believing g ati t n h g at the e would not be successful iii realising : planc e o ni n p d i iootyfumi the of e n t employment, h e e a h n i d e b people.Lordn what was expected from it, he considered that it was wrong to hold out such expectations to the people of Ireland. He thought the Government should continue their exertions to alleviate the calamity which had visited that country, and, at the same time, to impress upon the landlords the necessity of discharging their duties. He would also propose that the Government should deal directly with the people of Ireland without the instrumentality of the Lord-Lieutenant, for he believed that these measures lost their force in consequence of this intermediate system of administration. Believing, as he did, that the pro posed measure for the construction of railways, if agreed to, would only produce temporary good, while it would entail last ing evil, he would give it his decided opposition. Mr. GRATTAN said, amongst the exaggerated accounts which were from time to time put forward with respect to Irish Members, he should not be in the least surprised, to-morrow, to find, in the ordinary channels of information, that a party of Irish gentlemen in the neighbourhood of Whitehall had been attacked by a passenger by the Bath coach, who, after having presented a brass blunderbuss at them, which missed tire, made off.—( Roars of laughter.) Ile had been twenty years a Member of that House, and he had never heard the Irish landlords so maligned as they had been by the Honourable Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck). What right had he to attack the resident proprietors who lived on their estates and spent their money amongst their tenants ? The Irish landlords did not ask for money ; they had never asked for any.—( Derisive cheers.) As they seemed to doubt his assertion, he would tell them, how money was lent to Ireland, and how it was repaid. The money was lent by g l i b e e e a n p l b , : a r l r e o d w e t o d Englandby England t olartel3arpeart cent. — c ( ei tt it e . o , r a , the Irish Members to corroborate the truth of this assertion.— e ( Hear.) It appeared that 330 loans had been ado tx 7 l. Iwra fhteerar. Navin Ire land, three-fourths of which had been paid bac f k. which B had been repaid with five per cent. interest. Altogether lent to the county of Kerry, every shilling derisive cheers.) Now balance unpaid of 231,000/.—(Hear, and forward with what face could the Hon. Member for Bath of 967,75 51 . had been lent, 755,7391. of which had been come[repaid,leanveiynghaadi and charge the Irish landlords with mendacity. they should attack him in earnest.—( Laug it . er. Bill to said he wished to have a clause introduced into the listened to his attacks as yet very good humioured)ly,Tbhuetnnohe. prevent Irish landlords from having any part of the money which was to be voted ; but they never got any of the money which England had debited her with. Then he talked of Irish gold. He (Mr. Grattan) remembered the time when there was money in the Irish Exchequer. Now, no doubt the Hon. Member was conversant with history ; he would, therefore, put this question to him—Who took it ? Was it the Irish Mem bers or the Irish landlords who took it? No ; it was the So vereign of the country of which he (Mr. Roebuck) was one of the representatives—it was taken by the English Sovereign. But what became of the English gold sent to Ireland ? Was it sent for virtuous purposes which they should espouse? or to promote industry ? or to uphold the honour of the country 7 . No such thing. It was sent there for the purpose of briber o y,a d with that gold, and to undermine her independence. But let his 50 generals and subalterns were poured into the country t bribe the n m take it back again. There was a God in heaven, who, now b wrath, would avenge such conduct. they had been brought on their knees before the I h and that they must do justice to those whom furies so grievously oppressed. The Hon. Mon e beef ex that the Irish were now to be fed on Eng pense of England, but every cow imported prised several persons of employment.i--( but how much gold was taken out of Ireland and spent in rat t ig eroan, talked of English gold going into Ireland ' lend ? A list which was in his possession showed that a gentleman a estate ; another 7,000/. a year which he derived. in the same way ; in having property in Sligo, spent 7, 0 g" 0 000/, and a number of Longford, 5,0001., in Waterford, 4 , _ ' nt state if etc had had would net have reduced Ireland to her presen t any back to support her ; but as the soil belonged spent its produce elsewhere ' hese the sky to the earth. In Wicklow, He had read much, in so bad a condition as in other partese.ootry could make laws and had arrived at the opinion that no therefore he hoped their lived, the inhabitants, notwithstandingwthe ealaiTntY, to see eTailhweyaysi which would be suitable to another,en would legislate for herself. Al the union would be had een made in the criminal though many modificationsl penal e nactments. Let them not Code, yet it con tannedseze e ra lr,,h, I but of the misgovernment speak of the idleness of h children r e p ealed , w a o n u d l d whenlivet o I s r e e e l a t o h d a t da y h to have reduced the constituencies Reform Bill as as thirty or forty. Through these and of Ireland to as few le had been destroyed and demoral . ed, other causes the Pen! ) ' of that House, and of those who had so denuded the e their distresses, they would n p o on dou o bt P a 30,000,0001• re to Cromwell , and to " send the Irish across the glad to act like e Th e y could not fail, ere long, to rue their • MIS- Shannon. ld not call the remarks of the Hon. Member and no doubt w l h ie e , n , they had been called u t " deeds. He would er e of Ireland ; he had even been g lty • n of the shrivelledadder.—( Hear, hear, and dripping poison of the shrivelled adder.—(Hear, hear, and lauithter.) Th t a Hon. Member, however, had not always for Bath satire, he could not call themvirulent, but rath th laughter.) ttlYsedition, as in 1835 he •d h - 'l' - • of sal t at America a nd obtained her independence, and advised had fought for r example. Many an Irishman had been hung to follow he than that . saying far less He now came to deal with hung for say (Laughter.) The late IS d made o t w i n a nt Ireland. nney Ir. Drummond, who common sense.— a h t o fi pe v d e p th er e e G en e t - . stated, ma * a t philanthropist,ny years ago, to adeputa lel:: advantages ' : a very tion that waited anxious s nt would net reject the Bill, educe it would best profitable employment to the country. - dat three which they had borrowe was the common sense of of England, the economy of Scotland, and the sterling honesty the people of Ireland.—( Cheers.) Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL hoped that the House would now as it had done on other cases of have acted emergency, day to day for and have sat from , the purpose of passing, with out the slightest delay, the Bills which the Government had introduced on their own responsibility. Ile thought. sincerely, that some such proceeding ought to have been adopted on the present occasion. Why was Wednesiay last lost? Why had the greater part of that day been lost —or why a single hour lost, when the distress in Ireland threatened the safety of the empire? H e , therefore, implored the House to consider whether it would not be well to meet the calamity by the constant sitting of the House, and by pressing forward, with the least possible delay, the measures which the Government had brought forward for the purpose of affoi ding relief to the people of Ireland.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The measure of the Noble Lord might be a good one, or it might be a bad one. There was certainly much speciousness Memberss ea o. nng, rTeoe orhwneahs at T 1 ° I. totols:loss i la took ssooof :5 11 0 : :000 s oi s i n e m : o t eot i onn t h , e antnhr o d6et o ther i subject, 1 nnob jmligetne: c iydt)tl , i . r , s o, I f hfttstflhhaphlsoombueeterci , i knhcetnygrtahrel eontnandhelsrstihyi r a.,enbso:deddrtfil rl aEwofaafpt:ennt,hnenolehdr. fell ,dtggiyaec, lfrltghrortladeht not lived, of in it as laid baize the House ; but he would ask him not to persevere in it until those measures proposed by the Govern ment to meet the emergency of the time had been sanctioned. The Government were responsible; in Heaven's name let them not divide that responsibility with them by delaying such projects as they believed esse n ti a l. Wh i l e t h ey we re de bating the people were starving.—( made. He would have the H ouse ht toe side of the Irish Members that starving.—(Hear, he e tna a t r a , irn h kt e et a hm_ r a . pt ) e riat A nween g s o b o ne d goat d n e o i of time had been already lost, a goo d d ea l o f t h e p re sent night had also been lost, and very i n t emperate speeches had been it commenced on the side of the Hon. Member for Bath, whose position he did not consider was in the least enviable. Ho (Mr. I. O'Connell) did not think, if his mind was right, that his conscience could be easy.--( Laughter.) H. did not think a right-241M sin would have thrown int* the discussion the torch of useless discord. The people of Ire land were perishing by hundreds; their representatives had come there with the sincerest desire and wish to repress every thing of an angry nature. He would ask the Hon. Member, in the name of humanity, to permit these Bills to be passed. He could then give notice of a day OA which he would pour forth his vile slanders, and they would then be ready to refute and answer him. The Hon. Member for Montrose bad said that there had been numberless remittances of money to Ire land. He held a Parliamentary paper in his hand, which he had moved for himself, which proved that since the union there had been a surplus received from Ireland of nearly twenty millions of money, and that only up to the year 1845. He also found that about eighteen millions had been advanced by way of loan to England and Scot land, out of which six millions two hundred thousand had been repaid. While there had been nine millions lent to Ireland, out of which seven millions had been repaid. England and Scotland had repaid six millions out of eighteen millions. Ireland out of nine millions, within the same period, had re paid seven millions. He would ask the Honourable Mem ber, in the name of common manhood, to abstain from his most envenomed and slanderous attacks. Until the measures calculated to relieve the calamity which existed had been passed. They would then have a short time to throw away, and if he would come forward and state his case, they pledged teemselves to refute him in every particular, or con sent to acknowledge themselves the abject creatures he would paint them.—( Hear, hear. ) Mr. HUDSON did not intend to detain the House at any length, and he had only risen to express his complete concur rence in the proposal of his Noble Friend the Member for Lynn, and to express his deep regret that the Hon. Member for Bath had irtroduced into a grave and ccmmercial question matters wholly irrelevant. It certainly was much to be desired that the Hon Member would take to himself an evening to exhaust his undigested bile.—(Hear, hear.) He considered that the Noble Lord (John Russell) was entitled to their thanks for the manner in which he received the proposition, which, when carried out, he trusted would lay the foundation of the future prosperity of Ireland. He did consider that the country was much in debted to the Noble Lord for the manner in which he had met the proposal, and he hoped that it would receive from him that patient consideration which it manifestly de served, and that when he came to look at the state ments and figures, he would fully find that they were borne out by fact ; indeed, for their accuracy, he was quite willing to pledge himself. Let the House remember that they were not about to introduce the principle of for warding public works by loans of money. The Hon. Member for Montrose would recollect the Caledonian canals.—(Great laughter.) Although the country from which he came was not backward in enterprise. There was one principle involved in the Bill, which eminently recommended it, and that was, that he believed in his conscience that the country would not lose one sixpence by passing the measure. They were not going to tax the people to raise the money, as had been erroneously stated, they were only about to lend the national credit. The Noble Lord had said that it would be an interference with private enterprise, but the Noble Lord would not surely contend that there was any chance of these rail ways being executed by private enterprise. The Govern ment by adopting the measure of the Noble Lord would only be following out the principle which was pursued in France. France lent her money for the execution of public works— they would be thus enabled to model their system upon that of the French, which had been desired by (early. He had con siderable experience in these undertakings . ; he had watched their progress and their development ; he had seen a barren country into which they had entered became fruitful; he had seen civilisation spreading her blessings around, and social inter course very much promoted ; and he knew not why the same results should not occur in Ireland. It had been urged that the measure would be a direct benefit to the lauded interest. Why there was no scheme which could be proposed to benefit a country, which would not immediately benefit that interest, and it was right that it should be so.—( Hear, hear. ) "I he Noble Lord had very properly stated, that had not some assistance been granted by Government to the Liverpool and Manchester Company, they probably would not have seen it now completed. But would any one get up and blame Go vernment for having given assistance to that line ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Although that was a time when it was a speculation, but now the system of railways had been reduced to almost a practical certainty. He trusted that the Noble Lord, when he came to the second reading of the Bill, would deeply consider the measure of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, and give it the kind consideration it de serves. He was, however, of opinion, that if the Noble Lord rejected the measure he was bound to bring forward some equally practical measure. Mr. WARBURTON said that the question was, whether the capital was to be advanced by this country—whether the English public would, at a period of this kind, engage in a scheme for advancing sixteen millions for the undertaking and completion of Irish railways. That was the question which her Majesty's Government had decided, and he entirely approved of the decision come to by them—that they would not, on this occasion, engage in such a scheme. There was no occasion fur the House to enter into a discussion as to whether they would enter into the scheme, or ascertafn whether it was desirable that the capital of England should be employed in Irish railways.—e Hear.) Occasion might arise—either for military or police purposes. And was this a period for this country to engage in undertakings not likely to be immediately productive? was it a period, when their garners were full of corn, when there were large que nti ties of food available, and money lying idle in the hands of the capitalists of the country ? They should rather think of em ploying the agriculturist and the farmer in the production of food before such a surplus could be embarked in such specula tions. What were the circumstances in which they now found themselves? They were told that one half of the ordinary food of Ireland was destroyed, and if capital was to be employed at all by England, it ought to be employed in setting the Irish labourers to work to produce for the next harvest a sufficiency of food to prevent a recurrence of the present cala mity. Was there any man of common sense in that House, or out of it, who could expect a n y other than a:distant return from such undertakings as the Noble Lord proposed to encourage. Would the turning of the soil on rail ways produce the potato, barley, oats or wheat, necessary for the consumption of the Irish people in next August and Sep tember, and during the whole of the ensuing year? No man of sense could say so ; and a Government must be insensate if, on the present, they engaged in an undertaking of this kind. Let them look at the enormous undertakings Fngland herself was already engaged in, in various railways, and while extraordinary demands were being made on England for the support of the Irish people, not only for the next year, but for many seasons to come. According to the arguni3nt of the Noble Lord, the returns from the Irish railways were so small, that the sums they proposed to advance them were only to be paid for by the small interest of 3} per cent., so that, under any circumstances, they were not likely grea'ly to improve the finances of the country. He objected entirely to any employment of the Irish people exciting in endeavour ing to produce food for the next season, and in endeavouring to avert the great danger of famine which threatened them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that although many topics had been entered into during the course of this discussion, and on which many Gentlemen had made observations, yet he rose on this occasion princi pally to make an appeal to those Gentlemen who had shown a disposition to prolong the debate, and to request them to abstain from doing so. He thought himself bound to set a good example in that respect, and abstain from making any observations on the most able speech in which his Noble Friend opposite had detailed his plan. His Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) had already stated the course which, not only on the present, but on future occasions, he should feel it his duty to adopt ; and such really being the case, no possible question could arise that night upon it. Leave had been given to the Noble Lord to lay his measure before the House. Of course the Noble Lord had understood that already there stood for that night a measure for the practical and immediate relief of distress in Ireland, and h e appealed especially to the Irish Members to second that Bill which had been already before them ; and not to waste time on the present discussion, it was of consequence that Hon. Members should not interfere or create further delay be fore that measure was passed, as its object was to give imme diate relief to the present necessities of Ireland. Mr. GOULBURN wished to say a few words on this sub ject before it was postponed. The Right Hon. Gentleman, who had just sat down, had said that the Noble Lord had dis tinctly answered the cou rse th a t h e i nten d e d t o take when the present Bill should her ea f ter b ecome a su bject for the consider ation of the House. He apprehended from what had fallen from Hon. Members, that the course to be taken by the Noble Lord, had not been distinctly stated. He thought it essential be fore the debate closed, that the House should be informed on that point, for although his Right Hon. Friend the Chan cellor of the Exchequer had stated that Government bad avowed its intentions, the House in general was not satisfied as to the cours e i n t en d e d t o b e pursue d. H e f e lt th a t to leave in uncertainty a question involving so large an amount of pe cuniary interest—(Cheers)—and one likely to lead to great speculation--(Loud cheers )—which speculation might be seri ously affected, was a course open to the greatest possible oljec lion, both as regarded th e i n t eres t of the speculation to which he had alluded, and the welfare of the very works Government desired most to promote. Wh o would advance money in undertakings of this kind? Wh o would encourage them under the present circum s t ances without distincta knowledge of the course that Government would take upon this measure. The sole object ho had in rising was to call upon the Noble Lord to make that clear which to some ' Members of that House appeared to be obscure. A course at once essential to the best pecuniary interest and the general welfare of the people of Ireland. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—In answering to the appeal of my Right Hon. Friend, who has stated that what I have said was not perfectly understood by the House, I will repeat my former statement. I stated to the House that I thought it respectful to my Noble Friend, and I am now confirmed in that opinion, to all - ow him to introduce the Bill. I stated that in the future stage, when, according to the forms of the House, it would be necessary that the House should go into Committee, for the purpose of providing the money necessary to carry into effect this Bill, that on such occasion I thought it in cumbent on the Government to take it upon itself to carry this plan into operation, or at once to put in the negative to the proposition on the part of the Crown. I do not think it would be fair for the Noble Lord to stand by to give merely a formal sanction of the Government, and allow him to proceed with the Bill in order to reject it on a future occasion. I stated that whatever might be the course taken by the Government and by the House, I was not prepared to carry into effect the plan which my Noble Friend has propose I, and therefore when he should apply for authority to carry it into law I should, on the part of the Government, refu e it. Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN said he felt he should be wanting, not only in the duty which he owed to the Noble Lord and to himself, but also to those whom he represented, if he failed to take this opportunity, the earliest that offered itself, of thanking the Noble Lord for his proposal. He thanked him, not so much much for the proposal itself, as for the spirit in which it had been offered. It had not been accompanied by that con tumely with which what were called boons to Ireland were so often accompanied. Such was not the spirit of the Hon. Member for Bath, who, on speaking on this subject, had taken every opportunity of ridiculing their distresses, however un deserving they might be of such ridicule. He had accused the landlords, the clergy, the middle classes, and the Irish people, and he left to the House to say, when a country was suffering from starvation and distress, was that a course to be adopted by any Hon. Member of that House ? The Hon. Member for Bath had come forward with his proposition, and what did it amount to? He had robbed his Honourable Friend the Member for Stroud of his proposal, and has indicated his intention of proposing a property tax on Ire land, by way of relieving the present ne ceisities, and told them to enact a law which had been enacted two years since e . taken must say he was inconceivably surpr ised by the co a u s r a s _ finis. by the Noble Lord. He could not conceive how, 5 ter of the Crown, he should hesitate to allow an advance to the extent of 16,000,000 i., when his politicahlisanastlotannisetec,aamnde forward and told him he might rely upon u t c h he measures nour o f that he would give to him all must passing the measure, when .he kndownatnldtatalsl tr to prevent a were necessary for the security of the coun y, state of things next ye h ar ti l t i e ke the present. Why should he not Noble Lord appeared to think that no grasp at it? But in truth relief was of any value to Ireland unless it were totally and utterly unproductive. The Noble Lord thought that all that was required was to feed the people. There never was so monstrous a proposition. What was to become of the 500,000 labourers now unemployed? The Noble Lord said there were measures proposed to him of a character rendering necessary less sacrifice of imperial credit on the part of the railways. He had stated that one proposition had been made to him, re "trill ITO million' Of credit to ten millions of capital, and that the Treasury had at once rejected the proposition. What had taken place in the county of which he was a member? All classes were anxious that a certain railway should be undertaken. They saw the amount of money about to be expended in an unproductive manner, and they said let us make a presentation for the railway, and we will take our chance hereafter of Parliament allowing us to sell or lease the line." The landed proinietors were prepared to give their consent to the railway being made through their estates. At the presentment sessions the proposal was unanimously adopted, but when it came to be submitted to the Treasury, they had said, "Oh, no, we must have unproductive works."—(Hear, hear.) The population of the country would have entered into these speculations, and paid every farthing of the money borrowed. And what was now the scheme of the Noble Lord? He now came down to the same parties, arid said that he would give them one-half of the advance made by the Imperial Treasury, when he might have had the whole repaid. He hoped that, under the new system, we should not see what he had seen in Clare, where the young women were sometimes working upon the roads. Ile hoped the Noble Lord would take the earliest opportunity of moving an address to her Majesty, that this scheme might be carried into effect. He, fur his own part, stood there independent of all parties. He had no animosity ag ainst the present Government. He considered hi m . self independent of all, and sought only a good system of legislation for his own country.—( Hear, hear.) Ile considered the proposition would be of great benefit to the people of Ireland, and hoped the Noble Lord at the head of the Government would reconsider the determination he hail come to, and give it his support. if he did net do so, he ( Mr. S. O'Brien) was convinced he would be hurled from his present seat of power.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. LA BOUCHERE expressed his regret at interfering in the discussion, after what had been said by his Right lion. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he (Mr. Labou chere) was desirous that the debate should come to a conclu sion as soon as possible, in order that the House might apply itself to the measures devised by the Government to meet the present urgent necessities of Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) He had risen because the Hon. Member who had last addressed the House had made a mistake, on which he (Mr. Labouchere) wished to make a remark or two. The Honourable Member for Limerick stated that his Noble Friend the Member for the city of Lon don had encouraged no works but what were of a useless or un productive nature. If it was not in the recollection of the Hon. Member, it must at least be in the recollection of the House, that among the measures which his Noble Friend at the head of the Government had introduced, there was one which, for the advantage and improvement of Ireland, pro posed to pledge the credit of England for at least a million and a half of money.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) This was a measure to enable the landowners of Ireland to employ the people, to relieve the distress which prevailed, and to cause the cultivation of the soil for the next harvest.—( Hear, hear.) It was therefore a most extraordinary mistake to say that the policy of the Government, and especially that of the Noble Lord at the head of it, was to give no encouragement to measures of a productive nature, but only to forward such as were of a useless and inexpedient character. So far from that, his Noble Friend was desirous of encouraging works that would benefit the great body of the Irish people, and not to construct works that would go into the hands 01 speculators.—( Hear, hear.) There was another statement of the Hon. Member for Limerick which was extremely calculated to mislead the House, and which also required some explana tion. He had stated that the Government had refused its sanction to presentments made at the baronial sessions for the construction of railway works. He (Mr. Labouchere) would tell the circumstances under which a refusal had been made, and he would then ask the House whether the Government had not done perfectly right in the matter. The line for which a presentment grant was wanted was one for which no Act of Parliament had been obtained.—( Hear, hear ) Would it have been right, he asked for the Government, to ride over all the Acts of Parliament which were passed last session, and have sanctioned a grant to a private line of this des cription ? Their conduct would have been most inexcusable had they done so. But there could be no fear of injustice charged against the Government; when they had always been most willing, if a fair cause for assisting a railway, for which an Act had been obtained, was made out at a present ment session, to allow the grant for the exe cution of earth work and embankments.—( Hear, hear.) The principle of a Treasury minute issued on the 16th October, 1846, was to this effect. It stated that the Government was prepared to give its sanction to presentments for the earth work of railways, providing there was a sufficient case made out. There were several conditions, which he need not go through, but there was one to .the effect, that advances should be made but to railways for which Acts of Parliament had been ob tained.—( Hear, hear.) It would have been manifest injustice, after agreeing to so many railway Bills last session, to pass them by, and to advance sums on lines got up by private par ties. To have acted otherwise than the Government had done, would have been to create great confusion.—( Hear, hear.) Nothing but the statement of the Hon. Member for Limerick had induced him to address the House, and having made these explanations, he trusted the House would allow the discussion to drop for the present, and go on with those pras tical measures of the Government which were now anxiously awaiting the decision of the House.—( Hear, hear.) The Marquis of GRANBY had no desire to protract the present debate, but he could not avoid rising to express,his assent to the proposition of the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn. He did not think that railways were an unmitigated good; there was a considerable amount of evil mixed up with them. At the same time, he thought, if ever there was a country where the benefits would be great, and the evils few, he believed that country was Ireland; and at no time could the advantages of this kind of communication be better in troduced than at present. He had no intention to go into the argument at present, but would content himself with thank ing the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, for the measure he had introduced. Mr. al UNTZ would ask the Hon. Member for Kendal whether it was right to oppose this measure when the people of Ireland were starving in thousands? He (Mr. Munts) was of opinion that it was better to lay aside principle than to allow the people to die.—( Hear, hear.) It appeared in that House that the exercise of benevolence was made to depend on the colour of the skin. It was not long since they had voted twenty millions to liberate the West India blacks, but now they talked of adhering to the principles of political economy, when the health and lives of millions were at stake.—( Hear. ) It was not a question of giving they had to consider—it was one of lending, the object being to construct railways as far as they were required by the wants of the country, and no fur ther.—( Hear, hear.) This was the real point to be considered by the House. He thought the measure of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn would do great good, and therefore he hoped the Noble Lord at the head of the Government would reconsider the question.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. J. COLLETT supported the motion of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn. He did not think the present discus sion was abstracting the attention of the House from measures of immediate importance, as he believed the proposition under consideration would, it agreed to, be the means of extensively employing the people. Though he might be considered as being an interested party, he would inform the House, that if the proposition of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was agreed to, he could, on the railways with which he was con nected, employ, by Monday next, 50,000 persons. He be. lieved the Government had not studied the question of rail ways, else they would not have expressed the de c:sion they had done that night.—(Hear, hear. ) If Government wished to interfere in the matter of railways, they could, at that moment, purchase all the lines in Ireland at par, and he (Mr. Collett) would be most happy to dispose of his interest at the same rate.—( Laughter.) He was no be liever in the utility of Government management, but if the Noble Lord desired to try the working of the scheme, he (Mr. Collett) could dispose of a railway which had already received the sanction of the House, and which was intended to run through the wilds of Tipperary.—(Shouts of laughter.) He repeated, that if the Government advanced the necessar) funds on the rate of interest contemplated in the measure of the Noble Lord. be (Mr. Collett) would be ready to engage 50,000 able-bodied men, in the course of the succeeding week, all he would require would be the Government permission, and by the next post he would address a letter to Mr. Dnngan, the contractor, who would, the following Monday, find employ ment for the number of persons he had stated.—(Cheers.) He had no hesitation in giving the names of the railways in which these men would be set at work. He would employ, let them say, in round nnmbers, on the Dundalk and Enniskillen, 5,000 men ; on the Belfast Junction, 7,00 i ; on the Great Southern and Western, 7,000; on the same railway, in the distressed portions of Cork, 10,000; on the Kilkenny portion of the line, 3,000 ; on the Killarney Junction, 3,000 ; and the remainder on the other lines, 15,000. Mr. M. GORE thought that another mode of providing employment for the population of the Irisa seaboard, in his opinion even preferable to railways, would be, to encourage fisheries.—(Cheers.) He had received accounts from the Galway coast that the fishermen of Claddagh were in a fearful state of destitution, and he thought that the distress might be greatly lessened if the Government took measures to extend the fisheries of Ireland. Mr. GROG AN said that as the Treasury minute, founded on Mr. Labouchere's letter, had been referred to by an Hon. and Learned Member in an earlier part of the evening, he begged leave to make one or two observations upon it. He could assure the House that, as far as beneficial works were concerned, that minute had remained a dead letter.—( Hear, hear.) The minute was in itself good, but the conditions which wer • annexed to it crippled its utility, and there was, therefore, no single instsnce in which it could be alleged in which a railway compa y had taken advantage of the proffer of the Government. Ile had not intended to trouble the House, but felt it his duty to refer to this matter as it had been so prominently brought before them by the Hon. and Learned Member opposite. Mr. MORGAN JOHN O'CONNELL would not have troubled the House that evening were it not that he believed that no other opportunity would be given them of discussing the question, for be believed that it would be cut short on the second reading. He was afraid that the Govern. ment had not given this question a proper consideration.— ( Hear, hear.) If it were possible that the measure introduced by the Noble Lord could in any degree endanger the finances of the country he should be as loath to advocate the measure as any representative of a Scottish or English constituency. —( Cheers.) But with the supervision that was to be exer cised over those works he was assured that the Government might safely advance the sums required by way of loan at 3/1 interest, and the repayment could be as well guaranteed by Irish railways as by any other species of public works. While he thanked the Government for the intentions they had mani fested towards the people of Ireland, he still thought that they might have adopted other and more beneficial measures by the encouragement of productive instead of comparatively useless works.—( Hear, hear.) He also thanked Hon. Members for the good feelings they had evinced towards Ireland, and if he but glanced at the expressions of those Hon. Members who dissented from the measure introduced by the Noble Lord (Lord George Bentinck ) that evening, and he more parti cularly referred to an Hon. and Learned Member who sat on the same side with himself, it was only to express his regret, that in the present unfortunate condition of Ireland, th . e d y, ha n y dr e more particularly the Hon. and Learned Member, I feelings of Irish Membets. He could e x e c s ited no gnation made use of expressions which were so calculatedassure thetsoh should have and ke Learned Member that those expressions e more honest feeling, that of pity—( 'eer which had in his breast—(Hear, hear ) —they only _etxcitse)d_athhaitgliheirs in veterate restlessness of temper —a restlessness proved so as a all le atl sla e t v n er — y s o b ne m .— id s induce p otrot attackuhniistys,utcnces (L a ughter.) They rea d in Homer that Thersites was listene d grea h t im an , obstructionat every o to by the Greeks, but alter all, the fame of Thersites was very ephemeral, and he believed that the Hon. and Learned Mem ber would not be more successful in his endeavours to attain popularity. Mr. HAMILTON also felt compelled to refer to th e T ree bsuyreth d e th H at on in . t ll e emb - A w ir h . ic G h r l n t g ad an b ) e , en fn a r ll h u e de fe d lt to a er s fo u ; Y D m ub in li u n te e pre sent condition of the Irish people it would prove totally inope rative, and the Treasury Cdmmissioners had no power to carry it into effect. The. Right Hon. Gentleman opposite seems in clined to ascribe mercenary motives to the Irish Members. He did not know by what scale the Hon. Member for Bath mea sured the conduct of those who came from Ireland, but this much he would assert, that there was no set of men whose conduct was more directed by disinterestedness and consistent integrity. The Noble Lord who introduced this measure seemed to desire that the resources of Ireland sheuld tee available for the imprevi men , of the country .-. the credit of England —( Hear, hear) . When at the close 'lf last year the entire failure of the potato crop had se, vs r. that the resources of that country were likely to be of little assistance , a deputation, of which he was a member, had waited upoi.l the secretary for Inland, Sir MGM free- mantle, and had pointed out that this was the means by which the resources of Ireland might he made available for overcom ing the difficulty. The deputation bad laboured to impress him with the necessity, that this was the only means by winch em ployment could be found for the peasantry, and that it cond only be used through the influence of British capital.--(Cheers) The Hon. Member for Bath seemed to m sunderstand the measure of the Noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck), but he (Mr. Hamilton) believed that this was the only means by which the burdens of the country could be lightened.—( Cheers.) They should recoll,ct that they had an army of 500,000 men in their pay. The Dreinafp Act, which had just been passed, useful as it was, would, in six weeks, or two months be quite inoperative ; and where then would be found the employment for the labourer, either in draining or on the public works ? The House should recollect that the Treasury commissioners had reported, in 1836, that there were five labourers employed in Ireland for two in Eng land. If thew were kept on the public works the cultivation of potatoes would be completely lost. They must therefore find support for the labourer ; and where was the employment that was to earn that support to be found ? He could not, there fore, perceive any means better than those which would be found in the measures proposed by the Noble Lord, for that measure would have the effect of procuring ample employment for the Irish labourer. They had the experience of Sir John Alacneil, the most eminent engineer that had been engaged on the railways in Ireland, who had stated that the Irish labourer was equal to any man in the exertion which he makes when em ployed upon railway works. When they first came on the works they were generally in a destitute condition. In England, but few f arm labourers left their usual occupation to obtain employment on railways, but in Ireland the case was different, for there they ran to obtain it with avidity. When they first came they were half famished, badly clothed, and in a state of destitution ; but shortly after they had obtained this employ ment they were altogether altered. He believed that the measure of the Noble Lord would have the effect of removing this evil; and, in the words of Sir J. .11acneil, once remove the desolateness of their condition, and the Irish labourer would be found to be altogether altered in character. He could not, therefore, but believe that this measure would altogether im prove the social condition of the Irish labourer. Captain HARRIS believed that an intimation had been held out by the Government that arsenal depots would be formed in Ireland, and he much wished to see a naval depot at Cork. He should like to see the correspondence on the subject. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The correspondence is already on the table. An Holz. MEniaea was glad this question had been brought forward; fur though he spoke in no hostility to the Govern ment, he still thought that the measure proposed by the Noble Lord was the one best adapted for improving the condition of the Irish labourer. After a few words from Colonel VERNER, Lord JOHN MANNERS said, after an observation that had fallen from the Hon. Member to the effect that this mea sure was brought forward to harrass Government, he wished to disabuse their minds of such an impression. He did most sincerely trust. that should the House pass by a majority the second reading of this Bill, that her Majesty's Government will not think it incumbent upon them to interpose the prero gative of the Crown to stop the Bill, which the Irish people and I the people of this country believed to be of the utmost im portance to Ireland. Should Government contemplate that course, he would just remind them that it was not so long ago since they witnessed in another place the introduction of that prerogat've, and they ail knew with what final success.— , ( Hear, hear.) He took the liberty of saying these few words . in no spirit of hostility to Government. and his earnest hope was that Government ;timid take up the measure, and carry it forward as their own.—( Hear, hear. ) Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. Mr. ROEBUCK requested the House to listen to him for not more than five rninwea. ile he gave a!, answe r 'o some observations which had !alien from several Hon. Gentlemen; and he addressed himself. first, to the Hon. 11 , mber for Kerry. When that Hon. Gentleman sat down, ho (Mr. Roebuck) took the liberty to torn round, and say, " May I take the liberty of asking whether you heard the speech I ma-:e this afternoon?" " Some of it," replied the Hon. Gentleman, " but I confess 1 took the greater part of it on credit." So all the compassion, all the feelings the Hon. Gentleman had for him was "on credit." That was precisely the sort of way in which all gentlemen were accustomed to deal with others who were, he was afraid, careless its their modes of assertion, He (Mr. Roebuck) appealed to the House to recollect the manner and language of his address. He had very strong objection to the employment of money in the way proposed by the Noble Lord. He had stated his reasons for that opinion. saying that he sincerely believed it would be doing mis chief to the people of England, and no good to the people of Ireland. He bad gone on to say, what he sincerely believed, that Ireland had suffered immense injury from appealing to the generosity of this House insteadiof trusting to herself; and he could not help feeling that, as no immediate benefit could arise in the way of immediate relief to the poor of Ireland, this measure could only have a beneficial effect upon the landed proprietors of that country. He had stated his opinion, as he now did, plainly. simply, and without circumlocution, as was his habit, without one harsh phrase or one harsh word.—(" No, no ;" " Order!") [ Mr. Osbcone—You said you would propose to put a clause In the Bill. j He considered it of the greatest importance f the dignity of this House that its Members should be entirely above suspicion, and that none of the money intended for the people of Ireland should be partitioned among persons having a seat in this House or the other. In regard to the remarks of the Hon. Member for Meath, he was not accusing the Hon Gentleman of running away ; but if he wanted, in a ward, to characterise the Hon. Gentleman's speech properly, he should say that it was a " frantic " speech. He asked the House whether he had employed a single phrase that could possibly warrant the wholesale vials of wrath that bad bees poured over his head. He now repeated what be said then, that he had a duty which he owed to his constituents. He had been reproved for not doing his duty as a Member of that House to Ireland, but he had also other duties towards those whom he represented. The Hon. Gentleman had accused him (Mr. Roebuck) of malignity, and had at the same time styled him a " shrivelled adder."—( Loud laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman had condescended to expend his sarcasms upon his (Mr. Roebuck's) unfortunate form,. a thing that he should be ashamed to do do in return._ (Laughter. ) Yes, the Hon. Gentleman had called him " a shrivelled adder." Was that not " a frantic exhibition of im potent indignation ?" The adder could bite and sting, and the poor ox that he did sting felt the small reptile to be a very dangerous enemy.—( Hear.) But the sting of what he had said had not been in the sharpness of his phrase, or the mode in which he had chosen to put it, but in the truth of his as sertions.—( Cheers.) He had always found that when he wanted to drive anything sharp home, when he wanted it to bite, he edged it with truth. That was the way to make it hang, and he felt that he had hit the white mark on this occa sion, because certain Hon. Gentlemen felt it so strongly, and became to angry.—(" Heat, hear," and a laugh.) Colonel RA WDON felt surprised at the language that had been used by the Hon. and Learned Memb,•r for Bath, or that such language should have been uttered in that House. That Honourable Member had told the House that the Honourable Member for Kerry had heard what he (Mr. Roebuck) had said on credit. Now he (Colonel Raw don) had heard the Hon. Member, and imparted what he had heard to the lien. Member for Kerry. He appealed to the high and generous feeling of that House, if any Gentleman, who heard him propose a clause, that no Member should ap propriate ally portion of the money to be voted by that House, if he would not feel justly indignant, were he alluded to, as the Irish Members were. Could anything be more insult ing.—( Hear, hear,) It had been strongly supposed that the Honourable Member for Bath was the hired advocate of ruffians.—( Order, order.) The SPEAKER here called the Hon. Member to order. Colonel RA WDON did not intend to commit a breach of order, but he felt strongly the insult of the Hon. Member for Bath.-- ( Hear, hear. ) Mr. F. FRENCH said the Hon. Member for Bath had benefited by the alteration in his tone, and, as for the rest of the lion. Gentleman's speech, it could not be complained of by them (the Irish Members). Mr. GRATTAN would like to know whether one Member had a right to charge another with intending to put the public money into his own pocket ?—(A laugh.) For himself, nothing was likely to come into his pocket through the rail ways. but when a Member of that House once charged Mr. Tierney with having his pockets stuffed with public money, he rather thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman's (the Speaker's) predecessor called that Member to order, and that when he next appeared in his place he received a very good jobation—( A laugh)—for making use of such an expression. The Hon. Member for Bath ought to receive a similar jobation, but he hoped this idle discussion would net be renewed, and that the Bill would be suffered to be brought in at once. After a few words from Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN, The Bill was brought in by Lord G. BENTINCK, amid general cheering from both sides of the House, and was read a first time. On the motion of Sir B. HALL, the following returns were ortlered:—" Return of the income on which the assessment is made for the relief of the poor in every union in Ireland ; the dates of any assessments ordered to be levied since March, 1846 ; the rate in the pound sterling of such assessments, and the amount collected and expended : of the amount of any sub• scriptions for the relief of the poor in every union in Ireland, distinguishing, 1, the balance (if an ) remaining from the sub scriptions of 1845 and 1846 ; 2, private subscriptions advanced by owners, lessors, and occupiers of property within each union; 3, subscriptions received from other sources ; 4, amount from public grants. Of the amount of deposits in the several sav ing's-banks in Ireland or► the Ist day of January, 1846, and the Ist day of January, 1847. Of the amount of poor-rates levied under the provisions of statutes of the Imperial Parliament for England and Wales, in each year since 1840; stating the amount in the pound sterling in each union. Similar return of the amount levied in Ireland. TENANT RIGHTS (IRELAND). Mr. S. CRAWFORD said, that is it was his object to have a fair discussion upon the motion of which he had given notice for to-night, on the subject of tenant right, he would not pro ceed with it at the present late hour of the night, but would postpone it until Thursday next. DESTITUTE POOR (IRELAND). On the order of the day for going into Committee of the whole House, Lord CLEMENTS called the attention of the House to a recent letter of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department, fur tha purpose of entering his protest against the police having anything to do with the relic( com mittees. It would be to take them from their proper duties to put them to others for which they were unfitted. Mr. LABOUCHERE said, that in the letter referred to it was announced that the head of the constabulary force in Ire land should form one of the ce ntral su perintending committees; and he would add, that that appointment had been made by the Government, not merely because, as the head of the con. stabulary, he must n ecessarily be a most useful and important member of that committee, but also became the ch aracter o f Colonel 111. Gregor stood so high in Ireland, he was so generally respected, as to render it unnecessary for him (Mr. Labou. there) to pass any eulogium upon him. Lord CLEMENT, disclaimed any intention of saying any thing touching on Colonel M' Gregor's character, of whom no person, either in or out o f t h e H ouse, could entertain a higher opinion than he himself did. The order of the tray was then read, and the House resolved itself ii,to a Committee of the whole House. Tne ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved a resolution authorising a grant of 300,0,101 from the Consoli dated Fund on the security it the rates to be levied under the Destitute Poor (Ireland) Bill. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated that the sums to be applied to the relief of the poor con sisted partly of money raised by rates, and partly of subscrip tions ; but, as the collection of those rates was not likely to be speedy, it was proposed to advance the money during their col lection. There would be a subsequent clause in the Bill authorising the whole grant, which he proposed to move from time to time in Committee of Supply during the session. Mr. P. SCROPE said, as this money was to be secured on the rates, the collection of which de,,ended on the exertions of the Poor-law Commissioners, who were to have a power to supersede the boards of gts.rdians if they did not collect them, and to appoint paid boards of guardians, and as he had a very strong opinion that the conduct of the Commissioners as to the collection of the rates had been very lax, particularly in the Castlebar union, where the people died in great numbers be cause the rates were not collected. he wished to know whether present Coesatissii'A' . ces ry tee Ac! int' , exerts , o r wholl:•,r fore the Bill _:same in . o opt , . attain . Sir G. GREY said, it was not intended to make any alteration before the Act came into operation ; but he hoped that the Act would pass immediately, and come into operation •sin e, very short time. The power given to the Commission by