The Sun. — London, England, 1847-02-16 00:00:00

- ft 1. i 1 tenant had dismissed twelve magistrates for being guardians of this union. He asked if the re port was correct, and also what steps had been taken to supply the places of the dismissed guardians, and whether any instructions had been given to recover the 1,U79/. of poer-rates due as am Ars. Sir G. GREY said it was quite true the pat-liens ef the union ha,i been dismissed, but it was net b, the Go !eminent or the Lord-Lieutenant, but by the Poor-law Commissioners, in whose hands the power rested. The step taken would require, according to law, that a fresh election of guardians should immediately take place, and if those do not discharge their duty, then the Poor-law Commissioners would appoint peid guardians. He had not received notice of the question, or else he would Itme brought the letter of the Poor-law Commissioners with him ; but that, with the other papers respecting the Castlebar union, would be placed on the table of the House in a few days. Mr. P. SCROPE wished to know if it was the inten tion of the Government to prosecute the guardians for their heinous neglect of the poor? They had refused out (lour relief under the most distressing circumstances, and a hundred persons had died in the workhouse, on which inquests had been held. Sir GEORGE GREY replied that he was in posses sion of no information at present as to what course would be taken. Mr. SCROPE said that perhaps the Attorney-Gene ral would answer the question. Mr. F. FRENCH said, the Hon. Member (Mr. P. SeroPe) should have given notice of his question, and the Irish Members would have been prepared to answer it. THE WELLINGTON STATUE. Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY wished to ask the Noble Lord, the head of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, whether any application had been made by the Committee of the Wellington statue to remove the scaf folding around it, and at whose expense the same was to be effected ? Lord MORPETll—Directions had been given to the sculptor to remove the remaining portion of the scaffold ing, which prevents the view on the north side, as they conceived a sufficient view was not obtained at present. - -(Laughter.) Certainly they (the Government) thought a sufficient view had already been obtained. The 9uestion was before the sub-committee and the sculptor. The sub-committee had stated, that after removing a portion of the scaffolding, if it should be opposed to the views of the Government to have the statue remain, they would temove it. The Government was of opinion that the northern side of Waterloo-place would be the best site. Mr. MACKINNON would ask the Noble Lord (Morpeth) if he was aware that it was considered an indignity to remove statues during the lifetime of those whom they were iuter.ded to honour? Was the Noble Lord aware that in Pompeii some statues were placed upon arches, and in almost exactly the same posi tion as that of the Wellington statue?—(Laughter.) Lord MORPETH—With respect to what the lion. Gentleman stated, it could not be supposed in the present state of public opinion to remove the statue, and with respect to Pompeii, it could not be supposed that art was in the most perfect state in the days of Pompeii— (Hear, hear)—and it should be recollected that at that time there were more violent methods of displacement. FACTORY BILL. Sir W. JAMES wished to know whether it was in tended to make any change with respect to the educa tion of factory children, and to employ the female chit dren in print-works? Sir G. GREY, who spoke in so low a tone as to be scarcely audible, was understood to say that, with re ference to the first point, the education of children in print-works, it was unanimously recommended that such education should be afforded. With regard to the second question, the subject was under con sideration, and a Bill would be brought in upon the subject. With regard to the third point, he was not prepared, in the absence of further information, to give a decided answer. Mr. BRIGHT understood that there was a clause in troduced in the Bill which the House had under consi deration that fully met the object of the Hon. Member's second question. Sir G. GREY said there was a general report of the factory inspectors, recommending that certain portions 9j machinery should be cased in to prevent accidents. That recommendation was under consideration. THE POOR IN IRELAND. Lord GEO. BENTINCK wished to ask some ques tions of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer With reference to the Board of Works in Ireland, and the employment of destitute persons in that country. The first question which he wished to ask was— What was the average weekly amount paid to each officer of the Irish public works, the number of Whom were 11,587; what were the highest and lowest rates of wages paid to the officers of those works; what was the gross amount of maintenance connected with the Board of Works during the month of January last; the gross extra expenditure con nected with these works as regarded clerks, &c.; the gross cost of maintaining the destitute poor since January; the quantity of corn bought by Government for that purpose and the quantity in bond; and, lastly, what was the ratio of the expenditure of the staff as at Present existing in proportion to the persons employed ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was unable to give the answer to the first question Of his Noble Friend in detail as respected the Poor in Ireland. The first question put, as to the weekly amount of the money expended for the relief of the destitute poor in Ireland—the answer to that question was, according to the returns, 88,5871. The next question, as to the number of the persons employed on those works otherwise than labourers—according to the returns of the officials employed on these works, it was 486, anti the number of persons employed as labourers on those works was 10,897. The daily pay of those persons is 2,774/. The Noble Lord then asks the amount of the weekly pay of those persons, and if ho would multiply this amount by six he would find what the aggregate amount was. Jf the Noble Lord would turn to the same blue book, page 19, he would find that the highest pay of the engineer was 30s. a day, with 105, fur travel ling expenses, with an addition of 103. per day when they were out. The lowest pay was for the surveyor of the works, which was 2s. per day. The Noble Lord then asks, what is the actual cost of these works, and the maintenance of those who were engaged to survey their execution. To this he might reply that the actual cost was 2,700/. odd per day, and the general average cost of the week was 78,0001. To the Noble Lord's inquiry as to the expenditure during the month of January he could not reply, but the expense during the four weeks of December was upwards of 71,000/. He was not in a condition to say what the extreme expenses were, but he might say that the actual pay of the workmen was trom Bd. to 10d. a day, • and the extremest paint s range d f rom Bd. to is. 4d. for the daily pay during the three months of November, De cember, and January, for the relief of the destitute poor. The expenditure upon labour for four weeks in the month of November was 308,3511.; for the first four weeks in the month of December, 588,0451., and for the nine weeks of December and January it was 1,500,0001. The amount of corn in bond during* those periods amounted to 218,000 quart ers.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. P. SCROPE gave notice that to-morrow he should ask a question of the Government, whether, under the pre sent law, the boards of guardian. in Ireland were respon sible for the relief of toe poor ? and if they were, whether the guardians of Castlebar ought nut to ue pro,ecuted under the law by her Majesty's Attorney-General; and if they were not whether any steps would be taken to render them responsible in future? OPERATION OF THE PUBLIC WORKS BILL. Mr. ROEBUCK stated that he had a petition to pre sent from a poor man named John Hogan, residing in Dare in the county of Limerick, and which made out rather a curious case of hardship under which he was suffering. He stated, in the petition, that his family, a short time since, were in number four, and he, with his son, were employed on the public works by the agents of the Government. He had the misfot tune to lose one of the members of his family—a daughter, and in con sequence of his loss he was dismissed from the works, he and his son having been employed for some time on them. His son only was retained. Under this singular case of hardship he applied to the board of relief, and their answer was that they could not relieve him. The petition went on to say that it was lamentable to allow such determined oppression to be exercised upon a poor family who bail not a single Perch clh of o landlocality o f whilst there were instances t o be f o und i n people who had land and corn, and also money in the savings' bank, working on these works, and sent there by their landlords for the purpose of enabling them to pay their rent better. BAIL WAYS IN IRELAND.—ADJOURNED DEBATE. Colonel RAWDON presented a petition from Armagh in favour of the Bill introduced by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn. The Marquis of GRANBY hoped that the House would extend its indulgence to him whilst he endea voured to make some observations upon the measure now under the consid erat i on of the nse c il do e uels c id o re uld to assur the House that it was his anoxaious . ab stain from saying anythi ng w hi ch personal feeling. He hop e d t h at he might exeite b a e • allowed to say, that he heard with the deepest the determination which the Noble Lord at e regret t head of the Go v ernme n t ha d come to respecting thi s measure; for he had hoped from the assurance his Noble Friend had given to the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, that he proposed this measure, not in hos tility to her Majesty's Ministers, but as a means of faci litating the carrying out of the measures proposed by the Government, it would have been favourably received by the Government. The Noble Lord the Member for Lon don said he could not support the Bill, and also ex pressed his determination, if defeated on it, to resign.— (Hear, hear.) He (the Marquis of Granby) was quite sure the Noble Lord was actuated by high and patriotic motives ; but he rez,retted the determi nation, as he believed it would be for the injury of Ireland. He would not go into the comparative merits of the measures of the Government and the Bill now under consideration, as he did not think the two schemes were incompatible. In considering any plan of relief for Ireland, he would not enter into the causes that had brought about the present state of that country. Whether it had arisen from unwise legislation, or from the conduct of absentee landlords—whether it arose from any peculiarity of disposition in the Irish people, or the system of letting land which prevailed, he would not affirm; but this he would say, that there were only two practical modes of meeting the evil—either by a diminution of the population, or an increase of capital. There was no other remedy. — (Hear, hear.) Now the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London had said, that he had no Government or general plan of emigration. Though he (the Marquis of Granby) thought a pled deal might be done in that direction, still he did not think it would be a cure for the evils wnich aftticted Ireland. Tito next course, therefore, was to introduce capital into Ireland, and as From the Mato of the country and the want of estro by y g the Yell iving..,ll many persons amed to go and :omparison be t, all over the r r of The oar ° e noralising• measure viol lonteagle) h a ns to the po° r ' to haunt the b , said that , he introduc e a that he Car Trnanent we e ' to contained 'o t without i ti measure w ee cost distressing o contempl ate quite prepare. late Poor Il e. had not been been by O l d , who wo ose existence the Govere; t could ro a d been effected cen considered aal cages, an di to observat ie ; , Stanley). ie better oei, .ution get be W ien, introduction ei it w ould be e ements, arid 11 , 6 to that ' e ffee L t recarious belu • rig their exis t ces of the ee ' d b e educed, an to sanction i. 15. SILL. this Bill eras LL. ;ER, this Bill the Sheffield of this Bil " s Bill ghol, e year 0 1 1 o lands and bjeet to th e istriet. Ia presunt No ° division 00 F 36. 1 : 11 : her sesso ppinted us hard that riodically to request LP _ any further intro,7„,e3 of the totilv strong cal ° A rail of npa,ily, wi /b , for a CO ll obligatious were as3Pl° been yell no° LI to SUPr nt had br'!'" Iduced bl ° 'umber Pc°. tence of t" testy of to to a,: te nd ease being Corninitte;' of the 0 1 " hoped t b e' e cond tim ht to be fl i * * id that th e befor e Is refers% progress C 4 ' his Rig" the Bilt to dikcussioll be a most, )rogress of r to a divi mi. Friend ~ 38 43 -5 : 'urchaso of Branches ibridge to stun, ali.cl Inches at lwaY and vay. A icot a" kirk sod wads. event of nt of the George th P is 1101.1 0 pro fit. veIoPV A to mai l , th e e w orks 1 to 011" a Malts, Votes. ht lion. lartmont Ling the in the .d-Liett-, TES. red, THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 16, 1847. confidence, from whatever cause, which prevailed iu regard to it, private individuals were not prepared to introduce capital, the 13i11 of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn would be the effectual means of doing so. His Noble Friend had shown so clearly the benefits that Ireland must derive from that measure—he had stated so eloquently the employment it would give—the new markets it would open—the increased value to that coun try in the most essential points—the benefit the poor man would derive, not only from the employment it would give, but from the industrious habits it would cherish, by attaching him fully to the comforts of his home, that he thought it would be one of the most desirable measures ever proposed.—(Hear.) lie would refrain from expressing any opinion of his own, but he might be permitted to quote the opinions of others. He would call she attention of the House, in the first place, to a memorial presented to Lord Besborough in 1846. The memorial was from the inhabi tants of the city of Dublin, whose e pinions certainly ought to be considered on such a euesiion. (The Noble Lord here read the document in question, which stated that the memorialists were aware of the strong opinion of the country to promote railway enterprise, from which they expected the greatest pos sible good would result ; that 40,000 persons were employed by the works then in operation ; and pressing the matter warmly on the attention of his Excellency.) He was not arguing that in a country where employment was ample, where food was abundant, where artificial wants had already been established, where happiness and abundance reigned—he was not arguing that in such a country as that they might not quicken the pulse of that country to a feverish and unhealthy action; but what he was saying was this, that in the present low and unfortunate condi:ion of Ireland a system of railways well carried out might produce the most important benefits. Amongst the other important effects a system of railways must have in Ireland at the present moment, he thought would be the means of faci litating the transference of fish throughout Ireland. He held in his hand a letter he had received from a gentleman in Ireland who was well versed on this sub ject, and for whose talents and integrity he could vouch. It was not, however, written for the purpose of assisting the Noble Lord's motion, because it was dated, and he received it so far back as the end of October, 1845. The writer said, that at the end of October, 1845, he was in Galway, and was much interested with the proceedings of the Claddagh fishermen. The herrings were on the bank, and he observed at least a thousand boats stand out to sea. The com munity were under the direction of a king, whom they obeyed more implicitly than any other monarch. 'The thousand fishing boats brought in, on an average, 8,000 herrings, which sold at the rate of 10s. a thou sand, or 120 for Is. This number was equally divided among the fishermen, and before the close of the day they were sold to purchasers who attended with horses and carts, to hawk them over the country. Eight thousand herrings at los. per thousand came to 41. per boat, and the gross amount was, therefore, 4,0001. per day. The shoals of herrings continued off the head of the bank; but the King of Claddagh would not allow any of the fishing-boats to go out until the hawkers returned.—(Hear, hear.) Thus four days elapsed, and on the evening of the fourth day the horses and carts arrived, and the fishermen again put to sea. It was plain that if railways had existed 4,0001. worth of herrings might have been fished on each day, and con veyed throughout Ireland and to Dublin. Thus, for want of railways many thousands of pounds were lost, and the evil was the more lett becanse for want of these railways no curing was carried on in consequence of the very high price of salt. It had been objected to the plan of his Noble Friend, that there would be such difficulty in carryiroe it out, that they would never raise the 16,000,0001., and that the plan would therefore be refused. But he did not think that this country was in such a condition that the sum could not be raised. lie would not obtrude any opinion of his upon the House, because it would be of no avail; but he did understand from a friend of his who was well ac quainted with the finances of the country, that it was preposterous to suppose that four millions of money could not be raised in this country during the year 1847 for the relief of the destitute poor in Ireland. Another objection was, that the people of England would object to the imposition of a tax for the relief of the people of Ireland. The Noble Marquis then read a series of extracts from the account of a friend, which stated that on last Monday morning there were no less than 44 corpses lying dead in one house, and that over one hundred bodies had been deposited in the small burial grounds of Skibbereen and the neighbouring places, and that in those places no less than 401 bodies had been found apparently dead from starvation, and that not less than 1,600 victims to this terrible calamity had fallen within these few months.—(Hear, hear.) Would the people of England refuse assistance in such a case as this, or hesitate at any measure calculated for the effectual relief of the poor in Ireland? He was quite sure that at the present moment no such measure would be refused for the people of Ireland, and the only difference be tween the plans of the Noble Lord opposite and his Noble Friend was, that the latter would enable the Government to use the resources of the Government, while the former would not. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that some time must elapse before the railways could be formed, and that during that time. no return for the money would be coming in. He did not see the Right Hon. Gentleman in his place then, but he was quite sure that he would be very glad to hear that no such circum stance could occur, for there was a clause in the .Bill which provided that the interest of the money should be paid by the Irish railways. This was not all —he would go further—he could prove that not only would not a single farthing come from the pockets of the English people, but it would put money into the Treasury. He would take a passage from the Spectator of last week, and he supposed that gentleman could not suspect it to be a paper likely to be unduly influenced by his Noble Friend or his party. It said that it was not only the magnificent pro rises which could be seen in the proposition of the Noble Lord, or in the elaborately lucid sp eels of the proposer —it was the specific nature of the object at which he aimed, and the explicit account of the way in which the plan was ex pected to work. In all these respects the plan stood in formidable opposition and contrast to the plan of the Ministry. It was like the substance placed op posite to the shadow. They had there laid down all the Noble Lori's data—they might be dis pute.?, they might be falsified, but, then, they were challenging scrutiny. Three Chancellors of the Ex chequer had gut up one after the other, and not one of them had attempted to deny any important fact or state ment of the Neble Lord's.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend had said in his speech that there would be 600,0001. or 700,000/. put into the Treasury from the increase of the Customs and Excise under the operation of the Bill ; and could they say that that was no advantage to the people of England? The measure would, therefore, put 600,0001. or 700,0001. into the Treasury.—(Hear, hear.) An endeavour had been made the other evening by the Right Hon. Gentle man the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to prove that the data of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was false. He had asserted that the scheme, instead of employing 112,000 men, would only find employment for 45,000. It w.s not his (the larqui, of Granby',) intention to go into these calcu Cations at any length, as the Right Hon. Gentle man's statement had been most ably exposed by the Hoe. Member for Newark and the Right lion. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Hudson). They had shown that instead of calculating for four millions of money, he should have taken six millions, and that ho had committed a great mistake in setting down the earthwork at only 25 per cent. of the whole coat. Now, he would call the attention of the House to one Irish line, which was the most favourable to the present plan, in proof of the incorrectness of the statement of the Right lion. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer — it was the line from Dublin to Mullingar and Athlone. The earthwork and labour of that line cost 3,600/. a mile. Now, it was said that a million of money would employ 45,000 persons ; if so, a 1,0001. would find employment for 41, or 3,600/. for 162 persons. Therefore, according to the Right Hon. Gentleman's own principle, a mile of the railway in question would employ 162 persons. Now this was an unfavourable specimen of what the Bill would do ; inasmuch as, while this line cost 9,000/. a mile, and 3,600/. a mile for earth work and labour, 3,600/. per mile had been paid for the grand canal, making the actual cost but 6,4001.—(Hear.) It had been attempted to be denied that the Noble Lord had no right to assume that 500,000 persons would derive em ployment from his plan; hut he could not understand that because men were employed in earthworks, that their families, who might not be employed in other ways, would be benefited. The Right lion. Gentleman had said that the really destitute would not be relieved. how could they create any great work of improvement, any great reproductive work, and not employ able-bodied impossible. eof benefit If 11 ? The 2 , 000 men wereßight emme p n 1 y e dW, Why it u d not was they be Hon. Gentleman had also said that the contractors would Rot take all the labourers from the immediate neigh bourhood of the railways.—(Bear, hear.) He be lieved that all the labourers would not be taken from the immediate:neighbourhood, but no doubt a large number would. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that all the railroads went eastwards, while all the dis tress was i n th e west. W as th a t the fact ? Were there r not railways from Waterford to Limeric k, from all the Supposing partshes to Cork, from Waterford to Cork, from. Cork to Blackro c k, and other parts of the coun t r y in the western of Ireland in and ? his He c fadist eress was not i n th e west of Ireland. was or all railway s were on the eastward, what te also naturalno t, that all thatt t conclusion to com e to, w r s e t a a d st a m h but that they would take their labourers from thosedistricts in which was distress and an abundance of lab would be taking the ou lab r ? Well, but it was said this at once th a t thisou rers from agriculture. He ad mittedwould be a great and serious evil, but when he reflected that were nearly dying of two millions of people starvationnot from the want of employment, e could with all their aid and . help thinking that be a sufficient number Ip a ft ssi r s o t r ance, there would think that teen, was any tillinga He did not h the land. r ,h of a want of hands to cultivate vie lend ; but' the n lei ' • Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that ne t lion. the was incompetent, either from his physical energies, his industrial habits, for the labour required on railways. Why, Why, they found that the Irish peasant was superior to the Englishman, and he would read to the House the se veralo proportions of the two countries. He found that the average height of the Englishman was sixty-eight inches, and the Irishman seventy; the average weight of the Englishman 1511 ha.. of the Irishman 155'bs.; the average al' , Ene`a e - nee 403 . . e ed. .1 the IriShitida 432.—(ileac, ii, ere) lie tirouge , that there existed no physical reason why the Irishman should not be employed QU railways, The Noble Lord then proceeded to read extracts, showing that, as re garded his industrious habits, the Irishman was not second to the English labourer. There might havo been cases of idleness and inattention, but as a people, he could assure the House that no men had performed their duty lo: , tter. Tile Right lion. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr Goulhurn), had stated that he was quite inclined to how to the opinion of his Right Hen. Friend the Member for Sunderland. The Right Hon. Gentleman 1 a I stated that enterprise and capital had sucee , ded in forming railways in England, and he wished to know why the same capital and enterprise should not have been succeesful in form ing raialways in Ireland? Why. the Right Hon. Gentle man might, perhaps, know, that the climate of Italy and the south of France was favourable to the cultivation of the vine. No capital in England, without the aid of forcing houses, could ever bring the vine to per fection ; nor could they without the aid of English capital and enterprise ever form railwa3s in Ireland, or ever make them available for the rt lief of the people. There was one of th best lines in the country—that from Limerick to Ennis. At one end of the line there was a population of 60,000, and 12,000 at the other, and serving a population of from 100,000 to 400,000, and which was calculated to take in the accommo lation of a hundred miles of river. He had received a leaer this morning from a gentleman in Ireland, and it confirmed all the views that he (the Marquis of Granby) had ad vanced. The Bill of his N..1)1(; Friend would confer the greatest benefits on the people of helllnd without any cost to this country : Ile hoped, however, they would not look to the results that Ns 7 .uld follow the mere ex- penditure of the m mey, but to the increased prosperity of the country, and the various other concom'tant ad vantages which would ari...e—by which not only the present distress would be alleviated, hut the foundation laid of permanent good.—(hear, hear.) lie begged to thank the house fur the patience with which they had heard him. Mr. BROWNE said that the 20th clause of the Bill pro vided that one-third of the stock should be advanced by the shareholders, and that the Government should advance the re- mainder on the security of the undertaking. Now this was a mercantile speculation, and he doubted if the result would be any thing but disastrous. All railroads in Ireland were at present at a discount except three ; and, under such circum stances, he did not think that the scheme could be considered very favourable. It was said that the circulation of paper money would not derange the monetary affairs of the country, but if any one looked at the history of the finances of this coun try, he would come to a different conclusion. Many applica tions for the reduction of duties in various articles had been made to the Government, but if the revenue was burdened in the way proposed, there could be no attention paid to these ap plications. He trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would sustain the national faith, but if that were to be done, all use less and unnece , sary expenditure must be avoided.—( Hear.) Colonel MUIR trusted he should not be misunderstood on such ob.ervations he should think it right to make, or that in anything he should say he should be supposed to be averse to the extension of railway communication in Ireland. On the contrary, he was of opinion that no means could be morefai rly or effectually applied to develope the resources of that country. He consi.lered, however, that the treasure was exorbitant and unreasonable in itself, that its benefits to Ireland were ques tionable, and that its effects would be injurious not only to the public interests, but to the credit and commercial character of the United Kingdom. It was not his intention to refer to the va- rious objections which had been:made to:the measureby speakers in the former part of the debate, but there was one to which he begged to call the attention of the House, which was the fla grant immorality of the measure. There was no one more convinced than he was of the purity, the patriotism, and the philanthropy of the Noble Lord who introduced the Bill, but that was not what they bad now to consider, and he had no he sitation in calling it an extensive scheme for the encourage ment of railway gambling under the auspices of the State. He trusted that in making that statement he should not be consi dered guilty of misrepresentation or exaggeration. What was the definition of gambling ? Was it not staking money on creditless adventures in the hope of realising large profits? Well, if that were a correct definition, he could not believe that any impartial man would designate the measure for the encourage ment of Irish railways in another way than an insecure and creditless adventure. They had only to look to the prostrate condition of railway stock in that country to be convinced of this. He did not know what the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn would say to this, but it was the only criterion by which the matter could be tested, and, in his mind, the verdict was conclusive. Now the whole scope of the argument in favour of the measure was, that the credit merely of the State was lent to execute these undertakings, and that the invest ments would be repaid ; but he very much doubted whether such expectations would be ever realised. He did not doubt but, by the proposed plan, a certain value would be given to the shares in the various lines to which the Government advances were to be extended, hut this would be but temporary, and they would soon subside into the same state as they were before. The wise were convinced of this from the first, and the imprudent would be convinced by the sad experience they would have of the sad reality. It was only, therefore, through the influence of some delusion that what they now, in their lucid moments, considered valueless, should be thought valuable from Government assistance. He considered he was speaking moat justly in designating the teherne as one that held out encouragement to a system of gambling.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord on the eloquent and lucid speech in which he brought forward the measure, stated that one benefit to be conferred by it would be that the Irish landlords who had shares in these undertakings would sell them in order to improve their estates with the proceeds, but the Noble Lord told them in the same breath that the way to improve Ireland was to construct rail ways. He hoped the House would not give its sanction to such a great act of public profligacy. It was not a year since the House resounded with denunciations of the pernicious spirit which then pervaded the country with respect to railway gambling. That spirit was now lying dormant, and he hoped they would not give their sanction to the proposal of the Noble Lord the 'Member for Lynn, and resuscitate its slumbering energies to work the same evils. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON was rather surprised to hear the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down .designate the Bill of the Noble Lord as a measure for the encouragement of immorality in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) It was much to be regretted that the lion. Member had not been in the House for some time past, otherwise he might have stopped the pass ing of many railway Bills.—( Laughter.) His Noble Friend beside him, reminded him that with respect to some of the railways in Ireland, both Houses of Parliament suspended the standing orders, that their passing might be facilitated. In his opinion, the present was the very time that the Govern ment ought to assist Ireland. The lion. Gentelman had in stanced America. But let him ask the Hon. Gentleman, were not the large canals, public roads, and other great works, for the most part performed by the Government ? He believed that the objections raised to this measure might be divided into two. In the first place it was said that railways were properly private enterprise, with which Government should not inter fere ; and in the second place, thtt it would derange the financial system as laid down by the Govern ment. With regard to the first objection, several cases had been cited where Government had come forward for public works, not only in Englan d, Scotland, and Ireland, but even in the colonies. The principle laid down by the Noble Lord hid been already approved of by a Select Committee of that House. That Committee had been appointed to con sider this subject. Of that Committee some of her Majesty's Government were members. In page 7of that report, among the remedial measures proposed for the improvement of Ireland, was the promotion of public works, and the Committee expresso f their de . sire of calling the attention of the House seriously to the question. A Bill was introduced for that purpose. He himself bad been consulted on the Bill, and the hunour was even done him of employing his name in it. He must allude to what had been said as to there being less distress in the north of Ireland than in any other part of the country at the present time. Now it was owing to the employment that was found for able-bodied labourers on those railways that that distress did nit exist. It had been also said that the Irish would not he employed on those railways ; but were there not hundreds of them employed on railways at pre sent it this country 2 With regard to the financial part of the question, he was rLady to admit that the country was labouring under some financial difficulty, which affected unquestionably the Government securities. The Bill of his Noble Friend the Member for Lynn did not propose to increase the taxation, and before Government was required to do so there would be ad vanced a sufficient sum to proceed with. Four millions had been advanced for East India railways, for the liability of the Indian Government was confirmed by the Government of this country. Was it not right railways should be promoted in Ireland as well as in India? He regretted that the Noble Lord did not feel it his duty to adopt the Bill even in a modified shape. Mr. F. FRENCH said he was anxious to say a few words in explanation of some statements which were made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to Ire land, but before he could do so, he desired to bear his testimony to the laborious research of the Noble Member fir Lynn, and his admiration of the lucid and clear method in which he placed his opinions before the House. Ireland owed him a deep debt of gratitude; he had been the first statesman who had the courage to come forward and lift the veil under which the country had so long withered ; and his example should be followed by those who would in future attempt to govern the country. He felt it his duty to repel all charges which reflected on the character of Ireland, and he cared not whether those charges proceeded from those to whom Ire was politically opposed or otherwise, for, come they whence they might, as long as he possessed a seat in that House, he would raise his voice in defence of the country. The first circumstance to which he would allude, was the statement made by the Chan cellor of the Exchequer that the Grand Canal owed a sum of 100,000'. which had never been repaid. Now the facts of that case were these:—The sum originally lent was 47,0001. The Grand Canal, when that sum was lent, had an income of 50,0001., and they had a clear profit of 300!. a mile. They were anxious to extend the line to Ballinasloe, and had there b stnwi e zha e pd inceehn,and cwe of h proper as security ney lost. taken, But there w oul the Chancellor d not have of h been Ex chequer ven a of th e d a y t oo k a secur ity upon a line not wh w ol h ly ich and wa e s ntir t e o ly ho n g. trrhrhoeugehonseavenceo: wasntry that that portion did not pay either principal or interest, and a compromise had been lately offered of 10,000/. for the whole debt. The fault lay completely with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who lent the money upon bad security. The next statement which was made was in reference to the sum of 12,0001. to the great city of Cork, which is annually rated at two or three hundred thousand pounds. This sum is reported never to have been paid. This was a like case with the former; and he would ask the House if proper security had been taken in this instance? Was it likely th it the city of Cork would not have paid the debt?—( Hear, hear.) There was also the sum of one hundred thousand pounds lent to bend two bridges in Limerick, and the only security taken was the tolls upon the bridges.— , Hear.) Let th e H ouse con sider whether a p l a ce like Limerick ‘ would be able to repay such a sum merely from the tolls arising from two bridges ? This had been done during the Chancellorship of a Noble Lord o landlords o n o e fy grantedlreland had at y endeavoured to f who did not th en p ossess a seat in the House—he meant Lord for a gefloitnehr;eietldlTheeaah'ilelnabeen decided by the Lord Chancellor thatge of their estates. But they were pre • vented, nintl loanset e d t h d , ll reas ons which he ha previously stated, and h e t en ants for life could not avai n l o t t h s e np m o se o lv rt es th o e f p o r f o t v h i e si i\ on o s h o ie f the Biil. —( Hear.) He could Lord for the Mr. NEWDEG , T F said he wool(' support the measure of - his vote in fav our of the amendment. wo uld accerdinelv give ‘ the Noble Member fir Ly nn, "/ch he considered well calen• lated to meet the exigenc ies of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) H e . ion. Member for Ports had been surprised at the Right local concerns. He lly those m outh, and the Right Hon. GentlemsnntehveerCwhaonneidellroerpoafy theth capital, on account of being m erel y the Exchequer, stating that these railways de nied that they were such, espec ia e great lines proposed well th works of this kind, that there could be no better investment t k o no i n w t n er t s o e cetv every gentleman e i m n a n t the flheea nogosdei,react took up all the than through lines of railway, which not only mo tr a ffi c o f th e districts through iltoy passed. but accom a - t a m ll n c s. onv l e t rs w an a t s with the t e: , ,,;;041 the pritieilial tiog hu.r. ) A gr:-at deal had likewise 11;,-.1 said, ilitin th • progress of this discussion, about the principles of po economy, and of their violation by the present Bill. But was cal it not absurd to talk of political economy in the present state of Ireland, when the people were starving? The circumstances of England and Ireland were altogether different. During the last eleven years there had Bills passed for 7,200 miles of railway in England, of which one-third, or 2,600 miles, had been completed, leaving yet to make 4,600 miles. In the same time Bills for Ireland had passed for the con struction of 1,523 miles, of which but 123 miles had been completed, leaving yet unconstructed 1,400 miles. By this it would appear, that while England had con structed one-third of the lines for which Acts had been ob tained, Ireland had constructed hut one-twelfth, and of this one-twelfth they had been told that the great proportion of capital had been subscribed by England. If this were so, and if such a small proportion of the Irish railways had been made, the result could only be attributed to the deplorable condition of Ireland during the last few years. To talk therefore of applying the principles of political economy under such circumstances wag perfectly absurd.—(Hear, hear. ) The people of Ireland required employment, and the plan of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was expressly adapted for the purpose. There was a vast amount of capital in this country which at present could only be employed in Government securities, and he saw no better mode of employ ing it than by the carrying out of the works contemplated by the present Bill. He admitted that there were evident signs of a corning financial difficulty and a commercial crisis ; but that was in connexion with the present monetary system, and the altered circumstances of the country, occasioned by the abro gation of the protective system last year. The commercial difficulty which he apprehended would, therefore, arise out of the present monetary system, and the excess of imports over exports, occasioned by the leg:slation of last year; but because there was a prohabi:ity of such a crisis, were the peo ple of Ireland to be left to starve ? Was no provi• sion to be made for them ?—( Hear, hear. ) lie submitted that there must, and 'hat the Bill now under the consideration of the House was well adapted for the purpose. The Hon. Member then proceeded to show how the present monetary system operated against the extension of railway and other public works, and in support of the views he advanced, read a long extract from a letter which he said he had received from an esteemed friend, in illustration of the injurious effects of the currency measures of Sir Robert Peel. He believed that the real difficulty existed in the monetary system. Why four millions annually was only a part of the means adopted to meet the emergency of the war, when the expenditure of the country was 73,000,000'. Was there then any real impossibility to meet the exigencies of Ireland? In 1843 the income-tax was ten per cent., while now it was only three per cent. The whole of the tax proposed now was less than nine per cent. Could they refuse to raise less than one-half ? He believed there was no difficulty, and if there was a difficulty, it arose from the monetary system. The difficulty, if one there was, arose from speculations in foreign railways, and when the crisis has come, and when the bullion might be assorted, the specu lation in foreign railways kept capital short. He asked whether it was wise to restrict one department whereby the exchanges were regulated, when the other department was confessedly employed to restrict the enterprise of commercial capital ? He saw the Member for the city of London - smile, but he only spoke on the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and if there were no difficulty there was no necessity for restricting this accommodation.—( Hear, hear.) If these opinions were erroneous he alone was responsible for them ; but he would turn to another point. He believed that in 1835 the drains for gold on the Bank began, and with the commencement of that drain all the difficulty arose.—(Hear, hear.) Ile must confess that he felt considerable surprise at the spirit in which the Government had met the proposal of his Hon. Friend. his vote ote J. ono' Ct the N p N r e E s e L a L felt t occasion. co n s consid e rable ra t i b e l e felt difficulty that there in one great benefit in the Noble Lord's proposal, and that was, that it promised immediate employment.—( Hear, hear.) But the Irish Members felt themselves in this difficulty, that while the Noble Lord at the head of the Government promised immediate employment, yet the plan of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord George Bentinck) promised something commensurate with the distress new ex isting in Ireland. He was quite ready to allow that the Go vernment and the people, both within and out of the House, had evinced the warmest sympathy for the people of Ireland, and he did hope that the Government would have taken up this plan, and even if it were modified, that they would have car ried it out. France had adopted some such plan, and it has been discovered that in their taking possession of the railways in that country they had found their account. Not only had the Government of that country realised all they expected, but had obtained a dividend out of the returns. The plan of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn seemed to give the only chance of getting the relief that was necessary, and for that reason he would give his humble vote for the motion of the Noble Lord opposite. He deeply regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should ' have felt it his duty to advance a position that the officials in Ireland had not done their duty. He deeply regretted this. because that Right Hon. Gentleman had stated to the House, when something more than 300,000/. had been advanced for a wide street in DuAin, that nothing of this sum had been ' repaid. This was entirely a mistake, and he would take the paper which had been given in a return of the moneys carried from the English to the Irish Exchequer, and the contrary. By that paper it appeared that the remittances from the English Exchequer to the Irish Exchequer was 7,000,0001., whilst the remittances from Ireland during the same period, that was from the period of the union till last year was 26,000,000!., making the difference in favour of the Irish Exchequer of 19,000,000/. Was this any proof that the advantage had been all on the side of Ireland ? Then there was a question respecting the expenditure of 500,0001. on the part of Eng land for the improvement of Dublin, but the same principle held good in this as in the ether case. By the financial returns it would appear that 3,600,0001. were advanced for the support of the Irish police. Now, if this were solely and purely an Irish loan it would be proper that Ireland should pay all of it, but it must be recollected that the constabulary of Ireland did the duty of soldiers, rnd if this police forcedid not exist the army would have to be extended by some 7,000 or 8,000 men. Still the sum was in the course of repayment. With regard to the roads and bridges there had been upwards of 600,000/. advanced to Ireland on that ac count, of which all had been repaid with the exception of 24,0001. He must now go into other matters. In the Scotch fisheries upwards of 1,400,000/. had been expended by the public exchequer since 1809, while the amount advanced to Irish fisheries since 1800 only amounted to 300,0001. Now, he found that although large sums of money had been advanced to I. e land, the treaty of union had been violated by this country in its fiscal provisions and other of its provisions. He did not in tend to go into minute details upon the point, but the House might rely upon the figures he was about to quote ; indeed they the to extentthe 0 t could be proved by Parliamentary retu rns. Sin ce the union 4 G 7 r , Great , a oo t B , o r w i t a l i , n w h h a i d l eble Ireland aed relievedhad only from t h a e x e a n t ion tto relieved ex tent of 2,670,000/. The taxes imposed on England since the union amounted to 40,120,0001., and the imp o s ition upon Irelandwas 5,510000/. Therefore England had h ad an excess of relief from taxation over the amo. 01.. nt imposed of 6,503,00 whereas Ireland had experienced an excess o f taxation amount ing , to 2,800,000/., a sum greater in amount than the retie. given. On these grounds alone Ireland was enti tled to a l arge measure of relief in her present emergency ; b ut the relic' would be useless if the HORN did not follow it up with mea .. sures to raise the general condidition of the pesetPiliee: It was their bounden duty to do so in honesty to their own interests. At al l events, themselves they did not do so, they would leave , to drain the coffers of the country. The condition position people must be raised, and then Ireland would be in a should be open to a recurrence uthrpempwseoh.tiacthoH. tchrroepaetafegntaheiien to repay the debt. But, even supposing Ireland .nwets' unable to repay the whole of the debt, if their condi: ho e s _ as improved they would be able to repay this country in t_ h of an increased revenue. Out of thirty millions revenue of the United Kingdom Ireland only i it was seven. Now this was by no means proportionate 1 of Ireland (Hear, hear. ) The truth was the peol'e xeisa bl, remembered that the population was as eight to wheneighteen.— were too poor, and could not afford to purchasee There and customs-paying articles in proportion to England. which in Ireland, upon which the duty was paid in this country, w paid tri t t o m t t ip e t e was, besides, a large quantity of foreign manufactures acnondsusomme: were estimated at the value of 389,000/. per annum, . 6 lando,oowoa/.s notor 70, giveneoC 1. credit. derived Thefro m peopleCro Crown lands,nef Irelandf or w w e h r i e c e h rt ea l x r oc e d, at the same rate as the people of this country, but they w ; t p i o e o ri e t a o b s e im p p u le nct h u y a p l e t t o he t ti h c e al s e a a m se e , extent. might men position of the people of Ireland. Supposing a 00r mat one penny in the pound were levied upon meat, theP while purchased his two pounds and paid his twopence, his oft the rich man bought his eighteen pounds and paid lion here shilling and sixpence There was excess of taxation , The poor man, in proportion tomd tht money, Pal local rateof t h o f; the positioi same as the rich, and that was exactly should du. of Ireland. Now, what the House condition. ant would be to endeavour to better her trade and te the revenue. thus enable her to contribute her prop" share l ich he adopter Mr. COItRY explained the course se, l her step he should tions, namely, that before he took any 0t already proposed. wait the result of the Government measures struction of rail. He agreed with his Noble Friend that the conch good, but he ways in Ireland would be productive of h m eve the present dis when he was invited to join the Irish party in their delibera. thought they would be ill adapted to re _ e H considered that i. forseirvawteiadalinAsit% it the tress which prevailed in that country. ' G vernment did not and he was glad to see that her Majesty s 0 ergency. They hoc was the duty of the State to arrest the P hesitate to come forward to meet the em already expended nine millions for . . al outlay which was pro assent, therefore, to the great addition favourable a view o posed by this Bill. He did not take Po . . th th it would terminate wi e the calamity as to suppose that , o f the seed for this e could not next harvest, as the Progress of the famine ia th re at o p f e e etation. He, there. Pe State should be hue. fore, thought that the resources of the . . f t pos sible continuation o a s ate o banded, and kept to await the po sent. Besides, even if they die year's s not crop, su e a h n and as the to anticipated warrant e s a u r e c f h a t t i a a things much worse thanhthe pre withdrawal of the expenditure then contributed to depress tin might find, at the expiration of of this i cotabo w ntuaLhti, let i r t ypy w o, - cookaupnel opposed beget soetfdhtahtt heaaef speculator,e g e l ßr i e n i ofalglt. portiondi i e dependence. instead s n wt d oea e fsa n dtn c ho e o; . l scheme was a dazzling pro who were dependent on it in as helpless hhteich it was intended to relieve. Ile which, etaschxecepouenflndodduiltreaiaolyl,neetahrtatsiesi,emtptoiheinaaeettpyl et' of the not consider it would be a just measure ti posal, but he _ a eco_nd reading of the Bill. energies money would go benefit it was intended. He should, those for whose e , them. e liar s 'ils o h large a measure out of the hands of tht d itPh e li it e s n. t g c e o Tl ni e' i e' der the House of Commons He ' the principles such expenditure. He did thought,th e people moreover, principles of political economy ; but s was against to o the measure not set advanced to why money should berailway companies at 3,: market rate of ' when the interest was so much per cent. said that Government interference with fresh higher. It was Government. opposed, manou not assent ti though he was h e lieved that snch a doctrine, fory of the measure, disposeddi ci g its ie s duty morett a i kt advising now advocated dopted, and , partook of the same H thought, however, that though the House shouli nature. e speculators, they should take not legislate for care that a goo( system of railways should be constructed to develops the re. They ought, sources of the country. however, to follow, not pre r fo ai r l m w e a r y l y a cede, the development of commerce, as they did in this country It was also said that railways would not afford immediate relie to the distressed labourers; but the point of fact was, that the earthworks to be executed would afford a very considerable amount of labour ; and he was informed that the Dublin an Cashel Railway had been willing to have made the whole o their earth- works, from one end of the line to the other, ho' the presentments were reftsed,. and the money was expendet upon public works, when it might have been more profitabls expended.—,,Hear, hear.) It was to the future which he most y would t : h m r there bef railways wasa looked to. They should not alone examine the preset)! He therefore pressing calamity, for it was necessary that then should endeavour to restore a sound social system security for the investment of capital, either in commerce which would not be a u s n A t i il ts considerei that the question of a system cf railway lopingm e manufacture, sth etaheefi.,ai pa ip o rl application agriculture.iolreland,nof ca p i t. a l . extension was wet worthy of the anxious consideration of the House ; and he hoped that the Government would devise some plan which woulc involve the principle of the Noble Lord. ,ste. Vii a W said. tii:s , ; -,, s did no. me l ts to eeter into ti ._ particular merits of the measure 'before the House. Fits tee s . ings would lead him one way, but his judgment and reason let; him another. Considering the statement which he heard an means awonfudl perfect dove v b e s hisan illustration lie to the result of the measure upon the present Government, he would not be a party, by any vote, to overturn that Go vernment, or lead to the formation of a new one.—(Hear. ) lie was in favour of a combined system of railways in Ireland, under the management of the State. This might expose him to come utip pularity in Ireland, but he considered it was an Advisable suggestion, and he hoped to see the Government before long promoting works of this kind. He regretted that he could not vote far the second reading of this Bill, because he believed it would impede the Government in those measures which they had brought forward so benefleiently for the purpose of immediately relieving the distresses of Ireland. He sincerely thanked the Noble Lord for the interest he felt in the welfare of Ireland at a period when she was afflicted by a great and deep calamity, and when she was deserted by her natural leaders. He had spoken out like a country gentleman of England; but, however he might admire the courage of the Noble Lord to assume the Government if it were offered to him. he could not, consistently with his duty, vote for the aeecond reading of the Bill. Sir W. IIIOLESWORTH said the argument of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. J. O'Connell) was th's Let there be the largest possible expenditure of money—spend without measure, spend without stint—give us all the mule) , you possibly ran." o:her Irish Members adopted a similar argument. Now he sincerely pitied them, and meant no dis • respect to them by saying so. Words could not express, minds could not conceive, the scenes they had witnessed in Ireland — famine, death, worse than death, the agony of impending death from famine, from tl.e actual want of food. He did not wonder, therefore, that they were glad to adopt an , measure .= hie!) was at all likely to alleviate the distresses of their j coon- ryinen—even the measure of the Noble Lord ; but it was the duty of English Members to exercise their calm judgment on the question. Ile believed that the people of England were ready to snake any sacrifice to save the people of Ireland from starvation, and with that view a mea ore had been already passed for affording immediate relief to the destitute poor of that country. When myriads are suffer ing from hunger it was impossible to scan too narrowly a mea sure which was requirod in actual operation without delay ; yet that measure alone would involve the expenditure of mil lions of money, which the people of this country would be compelled to pay. But the adoption of measures were neces sary for the purpose of placing the burdens of Irish distress on the shoulders of those who ought to bear it. Nos, he obj, cted to the scheme of the Noble Lord because it would not accom plish either of those two objects. Ile objected to it, likewise, because, looking at it in its:most favourable light, it would not aecomplish its object for which he said he brought it forward— namely, the relief of the destitute poor. No more than one third would be employed in the payment of wages—that labour must be chiefly performed by skilled and able-bodied men, so that a considerable number would be imported from this country. Then railways would not be made through the destitute and ill-popu lated parts of the country, but throu.,„h the north and the west ; consequently labour would be created in those places where there was less need of it; arid even there the destitute poor would suffer, because the labour could only be performed by the vigorous part of the people, and they alone would obtain employment. Thus coalition and riots would ensue. It would only benefit those in the immediate neighbourhood of the rail ways, and that benefit would be inconsiderable compared with the amount which would be spent. The landlords through whose property the line would pass would be the first gainers; secondly, the shareholders, whose shares would be come as profitable as the best English securities; and, lastly, the mortgagees, who would take a considerable portion of the money. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had, he thought, characterised the Bill as a " Bill for the benefit of destitute ,hareholders." Most English railways were constructed with capital raised on their intrinsic merits; but if Government ivere in a position to furnish money to shareholders to construct lines which their intrinsic merits could not raise, he jaw no reason why the money should not be devoted to the construction of English instead of Irish railways. Every farthing spent in making bad railways in Ireland would be so much deducted from the making of good railways in England. Ho begged the Noble Lord and his party to con sider that, however much they were bound to afford relief to Ireland, they were bound to do justice to their constituents, and not to vote for the spending of money on such an useless project as the one before the House. The Government hail ever found great want of enterprise and energy amongst those who were in a position to carry out works likely to be beneficial to the county; there was a want of self-reliance among the people.—( Hear, hear.) It was strange that they had read of an abundant harvest —of fields covered with grain ----yet when but a portion of that crop was deficient they were plunged at once into all the evils of a famine, without any means of support. A stronger poor-law, which would compel the owners of the soil of that country to relieve their awn poor, was required; and until such a measure was passed he considered that little good would accrue to Ireland. Mr. DISRAELI said, that in occupying the attention of the House he hoped to address himself to the immediate subject under consideration, arid should not attempt, like some other Hon. Members, to diverge to other topics— so doubt of paramount importance, but, whether right or wrong, just or unjust, were not the question they hail now to consider.—( Hear, hear.) The impression which had been made on the House by the address of the Hon. Alm ber the Recorder for Dublin, rendered it necessary that he (Mr. Disraeli) should advert to the feeling which he had ex pressed, and the position in which they, on that side of the House, were placed. The Right Hon. Gentleman had ex pressed himself, that while he gave the Noble Lord the Mombe-r for Lynn great credit for the sentiments he had expressed, and the measure he had introduced, still he felt it his duty to vote contrary to it.—( Hear, hear.) He told them that bec -use the Government depended on this vote he must record his ‘uffrage contrary to the proposition of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn.--( Hear, hear.) This was the position of the Right Hon. Member, and this led them to the consideration the circumstances of the question now before them. lie could easily understand why a member from a party con -rexion might not only be induced to be silent on a particular question or vote against a particular measure that they might think abstractedly beneficial to the country, if by so doing he expected that party to ride into power. He could understand t Member so situated supporting his friends even when the policy might be considered antagonistic to the welfare of the .iountry. That, however, was not the position of the Right lion. Gentleman the Member for the University of Dubin. He still was, and he (Mr. Disraeli) hoped he would remain with the political parfy he originally began with, though fighting against considerable odds. He would now address himself to the consideration of the present position which the party with whom he acted occupied. This measure had sug eested itself to his Noble Friend the Member for Lynn some considerable time ago. It had been long matured, and well digested, and so constituted, as to be peculiarly adapted to the circumstances of Ireland, and for the elevation of the condition of the people of that country. In the Queen's Speech the pro position for immediate relief for the people of Ireland was ,nooted ; and on the first day of the session his Noble Friend pressed on the Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty's Government this measure; but as the Government, it was sated, had prepared measures for the emergency, , hough his Noble Friend had matured for many months this scheme of railways for Ireland, he did not further press it then. What had since then been the conduct of the Noble Lord ? It would have been easy for his Noble Friend, and those with whom he acted, mere than once to have opposed the measures of the Govern ment. But considering the extraordinary circumstances under which her Majesty's Ministers came into power, and the exist ing emergency of the country, they thought it would be un worthy of them in the circumstances of the Government to oppose it in any petty spirit.—( Hear, hear.) It would have been easy for them to have opposed the Labour Act, but in stead of this, all they did was to con , ider whether the gentle. men occupying the places of her Majesty's Government, had acted with ability, energy, and zeal in the circumstances under which they were placed. They (the protectionists) beleved that they hid done so, that they had acted with ability, energy, and zeal, and that in their candid opinion no body of men, under the circumstances, could have acted better in these respects.—( Hear, hear.) But the Noble Lord on the iccasion he ( Mr. Disraeli) had referred to, en the opening of the session, said he was ready to support the measure of her '.Majesty's Government ; but that if he found them defective in their details, if they did not sufficiently meet the case, he would be prepared to br ng forward another measure, not in an an • r agonistic, but in an anciliary spirit.—( Hear, hear.) These were not the words of lip rhetoric, but every one knew, whether from public explanations or from private conversation, that this was the case. But now they were told that the exist ence of the Government, depended on the rejection of the i present measure ; to that he (Mr. Disraeli) would answer, why did not the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, when his Noble Friend made the exposition of his plan to the House, why did he not then state this to be the case ? That was the time fur him to say that he could not accept the measure, and that, if it was carried, he would divest himself of the responsibility of carrying it out, and threw it on those who supported it and the Noble Lord who brought it in. That would have been the proper course to take. But when he allowed the Bill to be laid on the table of the House, and when he had given his leave to introduce it, then his Noble Friend, as a man of honour, was bound to carry it through to its last stage, and to say that whatever might be the result no conclusion could be drawn reflecting on his conduct or character in what he had done.—( Hear, hear.) This was the real view of the case. The Noble Lord the Member for Lynn having made an exposition of his plan, and the Noble Lord at the head of the Government having given his quasi sanction to its introduction, they were not to be told that the Ministry was in danger as an inducement to abandon the scheme. If an adverse vote against the Government threat ened its existence, it was what often had been done before without any serious result. He saw Hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House, who, when they entered Parliament, were told that the Government would not last, as they were going out on the Irish question. (Hear, hear.) They did not, however, go out then. Two years after the leader of the most powerful opposition that had aver ex isted in this country declared that Ireland was his grea'est difficulty. That party succeeded to power, and toad them and the country that they were the only party that could govern Ireland. But the question now before the House was not the government of Ireland, the question of the last ten years, but it was, how they were to feed the Irish people.—( Hear.) And this was the best time to discuss this question, when no passions or prejudices were raised up with its consideration. If the ques tion was whether Popery should be increased or diminished, whether municipal powers should be extended or abolished, it might admit of some hesitation and discussion; but when they found a country like Ireland, with a population the densest in Europe, as it regarded arable land denser than China, and while the capital of that country was only twenty shillings or thirty shillings a head—while that of sterile Scot land was sixteen pounds a head, the present measure became one of paramount importance. (Hear, hear.) That e ars. body o He f tbe believed people that of t was the result that had been drawn by the people of England fiv r e e great this country, without referen c e to c re ed , class , or party, that no hallucination has been g reater than the supposition that iwa s the during conviction the last n o w fourof the or g this was a political panacea which could cure the griefs of Ire land. The Noble Lord, in his general address on the subject of Ireland some time ago, stated that the state of Ireland was a famine of the 13th century with the population of the 19th. No doubt that was a striking and picturesque description, but he must say that it was a fallacious one. In the famines of the middle ages, and the feudal famines, the y understo od their cs and their consequences , but he b e l ieved that the famine in au l s r e el and might find a parallel in countries and ti mes l ess re mote, and he was sorry to say in the dominions of her Majesty. There was another p ortion of her Ma j est y 's dominion s :where populati on was almost as dense, where poverty was almost as intense, and where the people were del endent upon the the l owes t sources of huma n subsistence. It was Ind ia that he al ludedand when t he rice failed, as when the potato failed in Ireland, th e y found the state of affairs very similar. It was a f Providenc e, for these calamit ies always came from to, visitation o the Most Divine. That truth no n e cou ld di s pute ; but would would it do for tha t House to for g et t o use t h e sorr y p hrase visit a ti o n o of Providence to conceal its own remissness in that respect , b eca use what had occurred had been in Ireland. foretold by grea t s t a tesmen, and by men of most exp erience t o ld them, twenty-five years age, that the gradual degeneration of the seed of the potato would ulti mately destroylreland unless they arrested its course. They dispatches and public papers of Mr. Drum - Lord Wellesl e y would find, in the mond, the sam f et opinion,the inevitable result of events long foreseen then, was, in knew Ireland best, and were capable of forming by those who it. They had the Government measures to an opinion upon and anything occurring in Ireland, he may , their supporter, and, as he , Government affairs; id be, whenever he did support, the earnest sup porter"" 50" • He would, however, venture to re mark, of these measures. of the :Noble Member for Lynn was that the measure alleviate this state of affairs, and it was not fir him to crisicise in accordance with the general intention of the Government • system. The measure of the Government would alleviate, or attempt to alleviate, the immediate distress. The Noble Lord indicated means by which future renovation might be secured. The measures of the Noble Lord were such as would se cure that employment desirable in early states of that future renovation. All that was brought forward was projected as a means of giving immediate employment to the people of Ireland, but which at the same time was to a twofold effect — to give a new character to the country, and so as to change the very complexion of that long-deserted and unhappy land by results similar to those which had recently o ccurred—from i He would the evils under whi c h s h e was t h en su ff er i n g. not dilate for a moment on th e c h aracter o f the proposition which the Noble Lord adverted to, and which proposed to itself two objects, and principally because it was the most regarded, although scarcely the most important consideratior , he confined himself to its power of employing the people of Ireland. His Noble Friend had made a statement from data which he gave without reserve to the House, and by which he calculated that 110,060 able-bodied labourers would be occupied under his scheme, and who would represent a population ex ceeding 500,000 persons. Alt hough it was not em ployment which could cure the evils of Ireland, he was sure that there was no gentleman present but would acknowledge that if they could secure such employment it must be the means of alleviating the present pressure upon the resources of this country. The proposition of his Noble Friend had been met—he would not say by an able—but by an ex tremely z ialous opposition. He did not mean to say that in an offensive sense, far he was quite sure that lion. Gentlemen who made the opposition had made the best of their means in doing so. The objection stated by the lion. Member of the Government who first rose on this subject was a critical objection, founded upon the back of this Bill. He found that the Bill was introduced, not by the Hon. Member for Siam ford, but it was also introduced by the Hen. Member for Sunderland, greatly interested in railways, and alto by the Hon. Member for Westmoreland, who was known to be one of the greatest manufacturers of iron in England. It was the first objection raised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer against the present proposal. He was perfectly willing to admit that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did net for a moment impute, even by reference, any corrupt motive to his Noble Friend. There were few gentlemen present who would dispute his proposi tion. They ail knew the fascination of an engrossing pursuit— it did give a tone to the judgment, and it was not impossible that men so interested would view the general affairs of the world through the coloured prism, their usual acts. He was not disposed to deny that his Hon. Friends the Members for Sun derland and Westmoreland might have viewed the circumstances placed under their consideration with feelings resulting from one engrossing idea. Still he must reply that it was not merely creators of railways and manufacturers of iron, who had fol lowed the principle, for he found that three Chancellors of the Exchequer rose each after the other, so that lie was disposed to view their financial opposition as arising from the same feeling. The Hon. Member for Portsmouth who came for ward on this occasion in a gallant spirit, which all the sympa thetic reminiscences of official life could not stop, and said that the Member for Newark had made a decla matory speech, but no reply to the unanswerable statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If no answer had been given, they had adduced no proof in the first instance. There had been many alterations made by the Chancellor c f the Exchequer with regard to railways. lie was surprised that it should be so, but he was more sur• prised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have an other Chancellor of the Exchequer ready to be his bail and guarantee, and to tell the House that his speech was unan swerable. He would then detail the expenditure to the House, and he would give an analysis of the expenses of the several railways, and this he thought would decide the question ; and he thought still further, that as to the accuracy of this question, it was a bona fide report to those who were interested in railways, and he was sure that the House would believe this. There was given in it an analysis of the description of expenditure incurred upon a dear line in England, and also upon a cheap one ; likewise upon all the Belgian railways, and upon the Paris and Rouen—one of the most complete lines in France. The total expenditure per mile on the London and Birmingham Railway was 49,650/. Of this, there were expended on law, Parliamentary, engineering, and ' direction, 2,1501., and on land and compensation 6,3001., giving an average of 17 per cent. out of the 49,6501. Of items indi rectly connected with skilled labour, there was on the carry ing department 3,0004, and for the permanent way 5,6501 , giving 26 per cent.; and on the items connected immediately with labour, such as earthworks, and stations, and the like, out of the 49,6554 that was expended, 32,6301, or 62 per rent.—(Cheers.) That was a dear railway, .and he would now take a cheap English one. The total ex penditure of the Grand Junction was 21,200;. per mile, arid the items unconnected with labour were 17 per cent.; the items directly connected with skilled labour were 26 per cent.; while those connected with common labour were 50 per eat.— (Hear, bear.) On the Belgian railways the total expenditure per mile was 16,1301., and the items connected with common labour per mile were 6 92 V., or 43 per cent.—( Hear, hear.) On the Paris and Rouen Railway the expenditure per mile was :'2,500/., and out of that there was paid for common labour 12,570/., or 56 per cent., giving an average on the whole of these railwass in. England, in Belgium, and in France of 57 per cent. expended on common labour.—( Cheers.) He would now call the attention of the House to the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who estimated that the ex penditure on labour on railways was only 25 per cent. Now, if they took the Irish railroads at 16,0001. per mile, and allowed 57 per cent. as the average expended on labour, or 0,1201. per mile, which, over a period of four years, was 2, 9 801. annually, and if they took the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement, that for every 1,0001. per mile there were 45 men employed, it was clear that, according to the Right Hon. Gentleman's data, there would he employed for every 1,000/. expended per mile 102 persons for fur years —( Hear, hear)—that would make, over 1,500 miles of railway, 153,000 labourers, instead of 110,000, as his Noble Friend had calculated ; and, supposing five persons dependent on ecle of tqcse labourers, that would make, according to the principle of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, 765,000 people derivinz their means of subsistence from these works.—(Cheers.) begged to say that when his Noble Friend estimated the employ ment of the people at the rate of 6') per mile, he under-esti mated his case, for he had documents in his possession which showed that the number was much larger. His lion. Friend the Member for Newark had referred to page 35 of the blue book containing the proceedings of the Board of Works, and he also would refer to that volume, in which they would find, from the memorial of the Lord Mayor of Dublin, that 40,000 persons were, in October, 1846, employed on railroads in Ire land ; but in October, 1846, there were only 300 miles of railroad under the operation of being formed. Now, taking the number stated in that memorial to be em ployed on 300 miles, the same calculation ; applied to 1,500 miles, would give employment to 200,000 perseria.—( Hear. ) He concluded, however, that the estimate taken from the data of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the data taken from the lines of England, Belgium, and France, were extremely within the limits, and, since he had come the House he had found, in the Irish Railway Gazette and Conunerc,:al Ad vertiser, a statement to the effect that, on the works on the main line of the Great Southern and Western Railway, 38 miles from Dublin, there were 8,600 men constantly em ployed on 47 miles, giving 183 men per mile.--( Hear. ) So much for the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that only one-fourth of the capital of a railway was invested in lahour.—( Hear, hear.) Why, according to the estimates founded en the expenditure of the English, Belgian, and French lines, they could not have less than 3 00(1,00(1'. expended on skilled labour in Ireland under the proposal of his Noble Friend.—(Cheers.) And, suppose that the navigator was a man who had a wife and who had a family, not only would they employ 102 persons per mile for 1,500 miles, but he would show that the estimate they had taken of five persons maintained by each man's labour was as much underrated as the general statement of the Noble Lord. He thought the House must wish that this question should be fairly put before them ; and he would read for their information a document full of knowledge of the subject written in a straightforward spirit, and in the melt perfect, simplicity, and altogether so conclusive that he was sure they would net regret the time occupied in reading it. It was a letter dated February 8, 1847, from one who had much ac quiintanca with the subject of railways, and great experience of Ireland, and who had no knowledge of the Noble Lord to whom the letter was addressed. He said— " It is scarcely possible to overrate the benefits which would result to Ireland from the passing of the Bill now brought into Parliament by your Lordship. Allow me to trespass shortly on your Lordship's time while I endeavour to refute two of the principal objections which appear to be raised against the measure, which I think the experience I have had in that country will enable me to do. The first is, that if railways in Ireland were at once undertaken upon a large scale, English ' navvies' would be brought in by con tractors, and by superseding the labour of the country, greatly decrease the relief thereby sought to be given to the existing distress. For the greater part of the last five years I have been living near Londonderry, executing very large works, which are peculiarly adapted to the labourers of that country, when once they are taught, and which a very few weeks serve to accomplish, namely, the making of very large embankments to reclaim land from the sea, and on the Lon donderry and Cbleraine Railway. On commencing there I found the difficulties almost insuperable, from the total unac quaintance of the people with the nature of such works ; I fir tunately persevered, and with beneficial results to them and to myself. I brought over a few experienced gangers, who, in a few weeks, instructed the more intelligent, who, in their turn, taught others; and the men now employed are almost exclu sively Irish, and are quite capable of executing any works of the sort. I have now about 1,000 men employed, and if the company would furnish the means, I could at once greatly increase the number, and in a month or six weeks from this time I could take on between 3,000 and 4,000 more, and to enable me to do this, I should not require additional English labourers of any description. There are some works in which it is the interest of contractors to employ high-priced labour ; these works, from the nature of the country, are al most unknown on the Irish railways. I have, on the Coleraine line, I believe, almost the only tunnel in Ireland, which is a very difficult one, being nearly 1,000 yards in length, though the solid basalt rock. To commence it, I brought over some experieneed men, and added the necessary number of local labourers, who very soon became sufficiently expert to con tinue the works without such supervision and assistance. All the Englishmen but three have returned to England,— the works, with this exception, are carried en exclusively by Irishmen, entirely to my satisfaction and to that of the resi dent engineer of the company. Many of those men are now earning three shillings per day, and several men have left me at different times to undertake sub-contracts in other places, for whick shey have become capable, after two or three months' instruction, although previously totally unac customed to the work. The works, generally, on this line are of a difficult description. On the Londonderry and En niskillen, fifteen miles of which are completed, there are still 45 miles to make, the works being of the ordinary description, and upon which some thousands of Irish labourers could be immediarely and beneficially employed. The number of ho __ Eng lishmen now employed by me does not exceed two and a . 1 .. f per cent. on the whole, and these are principally . gi that en the e drivers and mechanics. Another objection raised counties through which the railways pass are not the most dis tressed, not relieve and therefore the works on thein it i r would riiost. I believe those parts of the country that the comparatively small which amount reogfudiestress, which till very lately existed in the neighbourhood ofm Londonderry, has arisen chiefly, if not solely , fr om t he emp oyeu on the works of the two railways connected with that city. I should add, that when I first went there the average price for per day, but that no w, and for a lon g t ime laboturitwia I s . is Is. Is. Gd. per day , and in man y instances hi gher. past, always found that when I required an in crease of labourers the fact soon became known, and in a very short time they came oat of Con naught and the western coast. If all the able-bodied m en remain in those parts, the farmers will of course employ them first, and thousand.; who cm find no employment must be fed by charity, or starve ; whereas, if the able-12odied men came down to the railway works—which, from my own perience, lam convinced they would, if th ey wer certain of employment at good wages—they would afterwards return with their earnings, and, in the meantime, the farmers would absorb the whole or greater part of the remaining local labour, 1 and the entire community w ou ld b e b enefited. Previously to I going to Ireland, I had, during several years, very largecon e tracts, both on the London and Birmingham and the Bristol and Exeter Railways, exceeding i n va l ue 500,0001 , an d having frequently employed above 3,000 men at one time. ' I mention this fact to satisfy your Lordship that I am not igno rant of the comparative difference between works of this sort in England and Ireland. In these observations which I thus venture respectfully to submit to your i p ... -.. ----iti sa tisficii that Mr. Dargan, who has the larq ' iia arid, and the other large contractors in i . ~ , ' -i: . :._ 111,113 , concur." I . -7 4:; • - —,,. -------=--' -.,. \ Eng' eh labourers in Ireland were on* d ob-timavera 6 of 2.1 per cent. This statement/H ( 4: fuirr boror out 1, M ,71 Montgomery Martin, than wbpin no o.a knew bett [r a g the state of Ireland. The writer of this l e tt er , IV Samuel Hemming, was one of :the, reatest contracto in that country, and he (Mr. Disraft)flptpg t ht„ /joust would allow him to put the statement berbrb thtitt:. It• was a sufficient answer to the so-called facts and shad.iss?Y 'crbiAtions heard from the first, again from the second, anal again from the last Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. Hemming also found tbat as more labourers were wanted, the peasantry came even from Connaught, on the west coast, in search of work. The farmer was benefited in an equal depoe with the other clas , es of society; in fact, it Yeas the entire community that this Bill proposed to benefit.—( Hear, hear.) If they therefore on that side of the }louse could prove that the measure would bent tit the community, he rusted the How would supp.rt it. ; or if the flight lion. he Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Hon. Mernh>r who supported him c,uld prove i hat the Bill was adverse to the interests of the country, he (Mr. Dis!ach) was prepared to vote against it.—( Hear, hear. ) He thought the House tcaold agree with him that this document from Mr. Hemming n Es tell worthy of its attention. He sluswed that the lalyan: employed was Irish labour ; he showed that the average was only as per cent, of foreign labour; he told them that they might em ploy thousands more on three public works ; he told them that in two or three weeks these men were capable of making tur:ncls, and that when he wanted more labour they came from a dis tance to obtain it—from Connaught, on the westci it side of the island. But he (Mr. Disraeli) was told that dies.; navi gators were '•gay Lotharios"—that they had come fr% m Eng land, where they had left their wives at home. Ile had shown, however, that they were Irishmen. and that they had their wives along with them. He would read to the Ifouso another document he had received that night. It was from a gentleman well known to many of the Hon. Members around him—he meant Sir Harvey Bruce. That gentleman, re • marking on the Chancellor of the Exchequer —it was a continuation of the Criticism on his unanswerable speech— (Loud laughter)—said that he sat on the Coleraine and Londonderry Relief Committee, and he found that the works going on in that district had greatly relieved the pressure upon them. He stated that many of the labourers upon the railways had wives, with families of from eight to twelve children—( Laughter)—and it was considered a very small family which did not number more than from three to four. The labour was cheap, and the land, in many cases, could be had for 600.!. a mile. There was new data for the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he wished to ascertain the proportion paid for labour to that for land. —(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman said that none but unskilled labourers were employed on railways,but the fact had been proved to be otherwise. It was said also that moneys had already been advanced to widen the streets of a certain corrupt corporation ; why what was it to them if that money had never been returned? He had no doubt th it the Govern ment of that day had had the support of two Members from► that very corporation. Let the Government meet them with facts and correct data, and let those decide on the merits. Let them not talk to him about the broad streets of Cork, while they were considering the broad guage of Ireland. It had been said that the measure of his Noble Friend would only make the half of Ireland rich.—(hear, hear.) Why, did eny Government who were ever in officer or did those who were now in office ever propose a measure cal.. culated to make one-half of Ireland rich ? If the Noble Lord had succeeded in doing so much, he thought that he had really done enough for one session.—( Cheers.) Multifarious as had been the objection: offered to the measure, it would be found that they all ranged themselves nnder three great heads, and it was a curious fact that each of those great heads were repre sented by three Chancellors of the Exchequer. The first, the real Chancellor of the Exchequer, said, that under the opera tion of this Bill there would be no commensurate employment of labour. That objection lie had disposed of. Another objec tion was represented by a second Chancellor, who represented an objection grounded on the monetary system. The third Chancellor represented the great principle of non-interference with private enterprise. The first of those objections had been disposed of ; he would now come to the second objection—the monetary crisis, and the danger to the State. He would deal with that objection as with the other, not by abstract reasoning, but by an appeal to facts, which he would lay before the llouse, and leave the House to form its own judgment upon the subject. The re presentative of that objection referred the House to the situa tion of France and Belgium, and warned the Howe against the danger of raising money by loan for railroad enterprise. Now let the House refer to Belgium. In the year ISIO the Government of Belgium determined to create railways by vir tue of a grant from the State, and the State granted, in round number:, 6,000,000'., of whirl► RUM 2,7 00,000/. `Was instantly raised by loan by the St ate, although its revenue did not at that time exceed the scm of 3,330,000/. This state, with a revenue of 3,300,00(1. determined to create railways by a grant of pub lic money to the extent of 6,000,000/., and at (ince, corn- menced by a loan of 2,700,0001., winch sum was raised at the race ot 5 per cent. interest, and that loan cost the country Se. 6s. Bd. as interest on each 1110/. Two years after; in the year 1842, Belgium raised a second loan of 1,0,;0,0;01. as part of the original grant of 6,000,000/. ; and in pursuance of the first loan of 2,700.1.00/., and at what rate of interest would the House suppose that this second loan was contracted at the rate of 4'. 17s. 4d. per cent. So that after taco years, nntwithstane nig the alleged depreciation of the Government securities they actually rose in value 11 1 4 per. cent. And these sums were received ashen the whole annual revenue of the country was 3,300,0301. Look then next at France. In the year 184:2 France had a floating debt ot 17,500,000/., in consequence of the fortifications of Paris, and it was under those circumstances that the Minister proposed to the Chambers a grant of 12,1.00,0001. sterling for the construction of railways in France, so that there was a debt of 19,000,0001 to be added to the fleeting debt of 17,500,0001. ; of this sum 18,000,0001. was raised by loan, and the balance of 1,0e0,00(7. was raised by a royal bond, similar to the Exchequer-bills of this country. In the year 1841 the proceeds of indirect taxation in France was something like 23,8:;0,000/., but what was the proceeds of indirect taxation in the tear 1846? Why, it amounted to 32,000,000/. or 33,600,00/. sterling, leaving a balance in favour cf the two years of 6,800,000'. SuTh, then, was the consequence of the support which was given to industry by the construction of these railways under circumstances in finitely more difficult than any the House had now to deal with.—(Cheers.) France actually created a floating debt ef nearly 40,000,0001., which has been paid over and over again. France had derived upwards of 4,500,0001. from the traffic cf her goods and merchandise upon these lines of railway, bur. what had she not gained in her revenue by indirect taxation. eatie.ed by an increased consumption of goods, and the stimulus which was given to industry?— (Cheers. ) This, then, was that Belgium and France brought forward by the lion. Mem ber for Portsmouth (Mr. F. Baring) in order to school his Noble Friend (Lord G. Bentinck). When he ( Mr. Baring) was Chancellor of the Exchequer, could ha refer to a revenue like that ? It was enough to make his mouth water to hear it. These Chancellors of the Exchequer seemed to think that the mea sure was to be disposed of by the mere recklessness of an official inse di.rit.—(Cheers.) But then it had been said that the rates of fares were considerably lower on these French and. Belgian lines than they would be in Ireland. He held in his hand the French tariff of railways, from which it appeared that the first-class trains of France were as 166 tq 144 on the Ulster Railway; the second-class as 125 to 100 on the Dublin and Drogheda; the third-class as 92 and a fraction to st; on the Ulster Railway. Why the fares in France were actually higher than they were in Ireland. In France every railway was leased to a company by the Government for forty years ; Government could have no supervision over it until the expira tion of that period. In the Bill just brought in by the officer ()filer Majesty's Government it was proposed to exercise super vMon at the end of every ten years, and if the fares got to-) high upon the Irish railways, the Government would have the power to reduce them. Then it had been said by the Chan cellor of the Exchequer that only 25 men would be employed upon each mile of railway, and this was one of the many as sertions made in the Right Hon. Member's unanswerable speech. There was a gentleman going about the City—a most respect able man—a friend of the Chancellor of the Exchequer— representing that he was the anonymous correspondent whom the Chancellor of the Exchequer quoted the other night, and that the statement of that Right Hon. Gentleman had given him the greatest distress, because when he told the Right. Hon. Gentleman that there were only twenty-five men employed upon a railway per mile, he meant permanently employed.— ( Hear and Laughter.) The truth was, this anonymous cot respondent represented that the Noble Lord who introduced tte measure had under-rated the number of men employed in the construction of a railway. Another and another still succeeded, and still he had a third Chancellor of the Exchequer to deal with. lie had dealt with the Chancellor of the Exchequer who had called upon them not to believe this eipital in labour ; he had dealt with the Chancellor of the Exchequer who warned them, with France and Belgium before their eyes, that borrowing this money would create a financial crisis; and he came now to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whu, under no consideration, would consent to interfere with private enterprise. Now, what was private enterprise? He thought it highly important that their should come to some understanding upon that question. it was a remarkable circumstance that every night they -saw statesmen who were present, or had been late- advisers of the Crown, rise end denounce all interference with private enterprise, and yet every night they found them sup porting measures adverse to that principle. Therefore if they could arrive at a clear and distinct understandinee of the definition of the meaning of the term private enterprise. it might tend to throw a great light upon that subject. What was meant by private enterprise? In this country it was pretty well understood. It meant the operations and ex ertions of private individuals to bring about certain commer cial undertakings. Suppose any man wished to construct a railway in this country, all he had to do was to calculate the cost. Now he knew the cost of Parliamentary expenses, the cost of land, and the rate of labour, and he therefore had, some data upon which to calculate the estimate, while he had the same facilities of calculating profits ; com mercial enterprise in that sense could be carried out in this country, but how different was it in Ireland. There the lan was encumbered almost beyond comprehension, and its h; pur chase might lead to public rancour and private animosity. capitalist had to employ labour at doubtful rates could not go to church or chapel without subjectingweli that the em ployer to personal animosity. lie knew very well n threatening moment he had commenced his operations w the principal —labourtehres ! notices were served upon him, m i g ht be shot from agents employed upon thel t woks well that these were behind hedges. The principles—commercial principle had not might be the cuse of ace m n a o c r y, t h o e r tame i,api t s e t o m no a t de c i o t m s w m a e y rc i i n al fre p la r n in d e c , l a P b Ple u i inquire. such . a state it of m ight thing b s e h to at w Protestant upon which private was ascendancy, but be that how it might there was enterpriseno doubt the commercial principlebased had not taken root in Ireland, and the question then arose w hether political principles ought not to be brought into operation to guide the commercial.—(Hear, hear.) That tow w hfh a e s inincohn t t- h oi enihtneetrerfarefrtewieornaensicieleiotpth.ropefprriravir‘at,ehatdeteee enterprise. e i ll n u l tt r hh e e l e an w d o , (ui b ul e de c s a dt u ie r y e there was none ; and if he wanted anything to prove this, he could find that proof in the speech of a late Chancellor of the most of the existing Exchequer. That Bight Hon. Gentleman told them that railways in Ireland had been undertaken by English capitalists. Well, that only proved to them that traeptiei)nisrr e :e s. meet the the way in they were profitable undertakings, while it proved that the reason why they were stopped at present was that there were political principles connected with them over which these capitalists could have no control. If Ireland were to be redeemed, or she were to feel the benefit, there must be something more powerful than private enterprise. If they trusted to private enterprise, Ireland would remain where she was now three centuries to come.—(Hear, hear.) The measure of his Noble Friend would supply to Ireland what he believed private enterprise could not supply. They had been told that it was a party measure ; but he, thought the course of the debate had shown that it was not a party mea sure. The course of the debate had shown that most of them in that House agreed that it would be an advantage to hate railways in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Although they were prepared to show the House that it could stimulate and employ a large amount of labour in. Ireland, that it would open up the immense coal field of Mallu, he thought it ought to be admitted that it was important to the Irish people that the measure should be carried. Rail ways in Ireland would create new fields of industry, new markets, new residents, and would give an impetus to trade, •