The Sun. — London, England, 1847-02-02 00:00:00

own labour, and by ro.thing ( . 150. Th.- duty ~f Govrn ra.nt was not to iced the people, or to provide work f()1. there, but. their duty was to remove all obstructions out of the way of the people that might hinder them „ tla• amine work, and that :night prevent them from earnin g food. :\od who was it that was attacking e..e)notnists ? Why, the diseiples of Mr. Pitt. It was raid that Mr. Pitt was a disciple of that great mail Adam smith, who ought never to be men tioned without respect. This was all a mistake, for the tact was, that the only bad part of Adam Smith's work, his " Chapter on Pittance," was w ritten after he came to London, - and knew Mr. Pitt; and one of the worst things Mr. Pitt did Was to prevent the utility to the world, which would have been de'ived from the talents of a great philosopher, by making him a commissioner of Cuetoms. The cry in Ireland was, " Send us no more public works, give us 20,000,0001. for Irish railways," in order that a railway in the north might take the people away from the cultivation of the fields in the middle. ‘• Raise the price of shares in railways, and we (the shareholders) s hall immedi a t e ly drip a great number of our sh ares. —(Laughter.) The best pltn in the world is to send millions after millions to Ireland or Public works " they had tried it—" for private? works" ;aey were goirg to try them. It was his duty to state, for it was his real and his decided opinion, that it Was no part of the duty of any Grivernment to pro vide food for the people under their care. It was the perversion of the fact to supp-se that that was the ease, and the consequence would be that. they vvoulit make the Irish landlords and the Irish peasantry look to :he Go vernment next year ; the eons( quei.c would be that they would look back to the year 1847 with feelings Of envy and regret that their position at that time was hot equal to what it was in that sctrce year. He had read a most able pamphlet by Mr. Hines, with Whom he did not upon every peint agree, for Mr. Holmes was a repealer, but he was an honest repealer, and he told them that no grants of money would ever stop their cry for repeal. He (Lord Brougham) hoped and trusted that they would not proceed one other step in the wrong direction. What the right direction was it was for their Lordships and the Government to say ; but let them not be forced into the wrong direction by the threats of the discontented, or coaxed by appeals to their huma nity ; for they must take care that they did not lay the foundation for new &mantis by re leasing Irish proprietors and the Irish people from the duties of their station by a mistaken relief from pre sent difficulties. He was sorry that his remarks on the army of ten thousand employed under the Labour-rate Act had given offence in certain quarters, — (Hear.) It was supposed that his strictures referred t . c . t, certain of the sup er i o r officers. He assured the House that it was not so; he knew that many of them were men of great humanity and abililty, and i he c o uld on ly ex p r e ss his regret that he ad been supposed to depreciate the value of their services. What was to be done with this cruel case of the people of Liverpool ? The case would soon be the tattle with the people of Glasgow, of Greenock, of Bristol, and of Manchester. Something must be Bo no in accordance with that principle of Political economy to which he had referred — th at principle which every man admitted when put to him calmly, but which they were all too apt to overlook in the midst of party c.amour, or in the presence of suffering and distress. The Marquis of WESTMEATH said that his Noble a nd Learned Friend had made a long statement, which, if unanswered, would bring a very considerable degree of odium on the presumed author of these calami h,ties, namely the Irish proprietors. But who was ." blame for the present state of Ireland ? who but the English Government, which had sanctioned the course of legislation which had been pursued towards Ire land. Th ere ex i ste d t h e greatest diffi cu lty i n e n forcing the la w in Ireland. He would give their Lordships several instances of what had occurred upon his own estates. In one case he let a fine piece of land on lease to a tenant, the lease contained a provision that pee ground should not b.. sub-let, it was, however, t out in " conacre ;' he brought his action against the tenant and obtained a verdict, but subsequently the verdict was set aside on appeal thate Court o f C ommon Pleas, the judges considering letting in conacre was not subletting. He had this morning received.a letter from his agent in Ireland, 111 Which be stated that he had got twenty writs Igainst the person for arrears of rent, hilt he could not get any person to serve, although he had otered a sh i ll i ng i n the poun d an d car -h ire the person who would serve them. Most of e persons against whom the writs had been obtained were gone to the public works, or to Scoeand, and perhaps some of them to Liverpool, with his money in their pockets, and taking the soup of that town for !lothing. On the estate itself the windows of the houses were filled with straw, and they had altogether t he appearance of a besieged city. This agent had en aeavoured to tempt them to pay their rents, by bribing them with a promise of remitting in some eases one-half of the amounts due, and in others one third, if they would only pay the remainder; but all the temptations were of no avail. This was owing to the laws of this country, which encouraged the people in their fraud, and held out to them an inducement to knavishness by allowing them to go free of the punishment which they justly merited. There was a piece of land in 'e eettneath which the law Called his, but he did not derive any advantage from it, and were the Government to come forward and say " You mtbt pay for the surport of the Poor on that land?" Be telt deep regret at the statements put forward in the petition; but such a state Of things did not warrant the repeated insinua tions —for they were direct charges—which were hsade towards Irish landowners. No one—no Irishman felt more grateful than he did for the relief which s country h a d g i ven to the poor of Ireland ; but he apprehended that the Irish landlords were not to blame, and, therefore, he considered such statements Ought not to go forth without contradiction. He, r one, did not want money from England. Give the benefit of my estate, and I will do with out it." He regretted if he had spoken with warmth, but he could not help it, as these sentiments had been " boiling in his larca,t" for yesrs, and as he Wish e d to show that the class to wh i ch he belonged were not to blame. Lord BROUGHAM explained that he had studiously avoided making any charges of insinuations derogatory to the Irish landowners. He admitted that the Irish landlord had not the same power over his land as the English landlord. Their Lordships then adjourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 1. The SPEAXER took the Chair at Four o'clock. NEW MEMBER. Mr. D. O'CoNNELL, jun., took the oaths and his seat for Dundalk, having been introduced by his brother, Mr. J. O'Connell. RAILWAY BILLS. Reports were brought up from the Examiner of several Bills, and the following were read a second time Bristol and Exeter Railway (Branch from Bleadon to Wells, Glastonbury, and Street). East Lincolnshire Railway (Deviation at Boston, and Branch to Great Grimsby and Sheffield Junction Rail ._ W t ay at Grimsby). Pewi Lincolnshire Railway (Branch from Louth to Lincoln). Glasgow, Barrhead, and Neilston Direct, and Glasgow Southern Terminal Railways Amalgamation. ,Glasgow, Barrhead, and Neilston Direct Railway. Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway , and Glasgow an d Belfast Union Railway (No. 1). Glasgow Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway (No. 4). It artlepool West Harbour and Dock (Dock Extension). e lian lePeol and Stockton Junction Railway. Leeds Central Railway Station London and North-Western Railway (Newport Pagnell, to B ce., Bran c h). e`e 'Won and North-Westein Railway (St. Alban's, Luton, and Di - instable Branift). leendon, Brighton, and South Coast Railway (London bridge, Station, Enlargement, and Arrang,•mt- tit). London, Brighton, ana_South Coast Railway (Extension to London-bridge.) te ndon -bridge Rail Way Termini General Enlargement. London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway (the li , nt ; _Railw a y t o M a id stone , C an t er b ur y, and Tunbridge). Manchest er , Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railway (Sup ply of Surplus Water to Manchester, Salford, and • titoekport). Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railway (Station Approach in Manchester). Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railway (Branch from Ashton under-Lyne to Oldham). AMALGAMATION OF RAILWAYS. • On the motion for the second reading of the Bill for the amalgamation of the Manchester, Sheffield, and Lin colnshire Railway with the Midland Railway, Mr. ELLICE said, that as this was the first Bill for amalgamation introduced this session, he bogged to give notice that to-morrow week h e sho uld ask a question of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government whether it Was the intention of the Ministry to bring in any Bill re specting the amalgamation of lines of railway ? He should do this because he had last session the honour of being chairman of the Committee appointed to consider the amalgamation railways, and he therefore thought it his duty to draw the attention of the House to great abuses which had been found to exist. In one case, in conse quence of the notice of amalgamation of one line, from Which it was ant cipated that only a revenue of three per cent. would accrue, but for which an agreement was entered into to pay the lessors ten per cent., the capital was so raised in value that the proprietors were enabled to raise the capital to 250 per cent. in value. The Committee over which he pres.cled had accordingly made a report to the House strongly drawing the attention of the Go. rernment to the reports of several of the lines for which Bills had been obtained, and express , d a hope that So Me measures would be taken in the p resent session to re medy the evil. As it was now known that several 13 , f the compan i es w h o o bt a i ne d their Bills last session , but who had not put a spade into the ground, we re coming to the House for powers of amalgamation, he tr usted the Government would provide som e means of stopping the abuses to which he referred. Mr. IIODGSON said, that in the case to which refe rence had been made, no doubt great mischief had en sued, but the evil had not extended to any of the direct no rthward and southward lines. He trusted, however, that the recommen d a ti o n w o uld be attended to by the Gov ernment. Mr. STRUTT quite agreed that this was a subject of g re at importance, and a Bill was already in a very for ward state or p re paration. which would be introduced at r, early a period as possible; but as his lion. Friend the Member for Coventry had given notice of the question he intended to propose to-morrow week, he would avail hli aself of that opportunity to enter more fully into ex- P l anation of the intended provisions of the Bill. Th Manchester and Lincolnshire Amalgamation Bill was hell read a second time. • SECOND READINGS. .The following Bills were also read a second time:— THE Mene'ees.ter, Si.effield d L'rcoleshire Railwa.e (Branch tit Chap,-; roes! Tete-. e'end t'eel Branch). Manche s rer, s f el. and Lank, flush ire Railway ( sh ton Petrel:rise). Manchester, Sheffie,d, and Lincolnshire Railway (Branch to Bugs%vert.,). Alanchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railway (Shef field Canal Purchase).. ' Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railways, and Manchester and Lincoln Union Railway. and CheAer . fi -la and Gninsborough Canal Amalgamation. Mid:and Great Western Railway of Ireland (Newcastle, Anniskinnan, and Baltrasna, Deviations). Newbury Cementry. Norfolk Railway (Diss Branch). Norfolk Railwa:, (Bury St. Edmund's Branch). Rochdale Canal (Sale to Manchester and Leeds Rail way Company. Scottish Midland Junction Railway (Amendment and Branch t , )Laureneekirlt). e , heffield Canal Aid. Aineodinent. Sunderland Markets, Bridge, Ferries, and General Im provement. Warrington Gas Light end Coke Company. - Wilst, Somerset, and Weymouth Railway Amendment (No. 1.) Windsor Railway. Yeovil, Bridport, and Exeter Railway, with Branches. LONDON, OX FOIW, AND Oil ELTF,N HAM R AIL WAY AND BRANCHES. On the motion that yeses 13111 he read a second time, Col, nel SIBT .011 P said, that it .a as almost impos sible to hear what was going on in that t' °use— (Laughter)—hecause, what with the noise of Members passing up and down tie - [louse, and the low tonein which the names were read by the cleik at the table, it was almost impossible to hear the names of the several Bills. lie knew that it was exceedingly difficult to take the sense of the lieuse—(Laughter) —or even to look for anything like a favourable result as regarded any opposition to the Bill, but he was determined to pursue the indeperalent course he_ had always . adopted, by assenting to none of them.—(Loud laughter.) He knew that he would be unsuccessful in opposing the second reading, but he felt bound to do so, as he had taken very great pains in looking over all the papers relative to this, and the opposition line (the Cheltenham and Oxford) which was then before the examining Committee. He was no friend to railways, and would rather meet a respectable highwayman than a railway surveyor at any time.—(Laugher.) The Bill, despite the lion. and Gallant Member's opposition, was read a second time. SUPPLY OF SEED (IRELAND.) Sir J. DUKE presented a p,tition from Clare and its neighbourhood (as we understood), from a number of tenant-farmers occupying from 20 to 60 acres each, praying the Government to render them some assistance in obtaining the se, doiecessary for sowing their land, and thereby obtaining crops in the ensuing year, and pre venting a recurrence of the sad visitation which had afflicted the country in the present sear. TEN HOURS' BILL. Mr. PLUNIPTRE presented a petition in favour of the Ten Hours' Bill. IRISH DISTESS. Mr. D. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the corporation of Dublin, praying the Government to adopt some speedy measures to meet the prevailing distress in Ireland. FOOD FOR IRELAND. Mr. MACARTHY presented a petition from the poor relief committees of Cork, setting forth that there were 4,757 persons at present in the workhouses con nected with that city, and 174 persons in the fever hos pital; and that, notwithstanding that the soup depots distributed. daily 7,000 quarts of soup, the amount of distress was still most alarmingly on the increase; that the prices of provisions were already double the usual price, and they prayed the Government to adopt some measures to obtain a supply of food, to keep down the present rising prices of provisions, and thereby mitigate the existing distress. LIGHT-HOUSES. Mr. BELL presented a petition praying for the aboli tion of the light-house dues. THE COLONIES. Mr. GOULBURN presented a petition, praying that the measures promised last session with respect to the introduction of sugar, might not be of a temporary, but of a permanent nature. IRELAND. Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented a petition from Carrie mickeross, setting forth that the want of proper security of tenure and li galised compensation for the improve ment of the soil were the causes of all the agrarian dis turbances that had taken place, and praying for reme dial measures. TEN HOURS' BILL. Sir R. H. INGLIS presentul a petition from the elerumen oilludderk.field in favour of the Ten Hours' NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. F. FRENCH gave notice that, in Committee on _he Poor Redef Bill, he should move amendments to the first and second clauses. Mr. O'CONNELL also gave notice of his intention to move amendments in Committee. ➢lr. ROEBUCK gave notice that, to-morrow, he should move for a Committee of the whole House for the purpose of extending the Poor-law Act to Ireland. Dr. BOWRING gave notice that, to morrow, he should make an inquiry respecting the committal of two children in the county of Essex, who were said to have been sent to prison and heavily fined for taking a small quantity of turnips from a field. Sir B. HALL gave notice of his intention to move for certain returns connected with the poor-rates of Ireland. _ _ Mr. GRATTAN gave notice that, to morrow, he would move for returns of the rich absentees from Ireland, specifying names, numbers, county, and property, as tar as they could be made up. A return of the poor had been ordered, and he thought it ought to be accompanied with a return of the rich. FOREIGN WINES. Alderman THONIPSON moved for a return of the number of gallons of foreign wine imported into this country. HOUSE OF KEYS. Pr. BOWRING wished to ask the Secretary of State for tie Hnnie Department it any correspondence had taken place with Government with reference to the sub ject of reform in the House of Keys, in the Isle of Man, and wheth , r memorials Iral ,been present , d on the subject, and if so, whether such would be produced ? Sir GEORGE GREY—Such correspondence had been received, and there was no objection" to its production. HAYDOCK LODGE ASYLUM. Mr. Off` EN STANLEY wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, if Govern ment intended to take any steps with reference to the disclosures made at this establishment, Sir GEORGE GREY said that a report had been received from the Commissioners of Lunacy, and it was intended that that report, with the evidence on which it was founded, should be laid before the House, till which time he did not think it expedi, nt to say what steps should be taken in refe rence to it. Mr. STANLEY wished again to ask if it was pro posed to make any amendment with regard to the 8 and 9 Viet., chap 26, in reference to county asylums. A very great difficulty had arisen with regard to b orrowin g money from the. Consolidated Fund. Sir GEORGE GREY %us not prepared to say that there was any Bill then ready to be brought in on the subject. WELLINGTON STATUE. Captain POLHILL wis.ted to know from the Noble Lord opp tsite, whether it was intended to allow the Wellington statue to remain in its present position? Lerd MORPETH said that Government had inti mate.l to the sub-committee their wish that the statue should be removed from the place where it now was. LABOURING POOR (IREAND) BILL. On the order of the day fur the second reading of this Bill being aped, Mr. WILLIAMS le se to propose the amendment, of which he had given notice—"'That the second reading (and all oth,r stages in this House) of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill. shall have precedence of the said Labour ing Poor (Leland) Bid." The course which the Go vernment had adopted was rendered most neces 4iry. It was called for by the whole Population of Ireland, and the Government had responded to that call. The Hon. Member for Limerick hid said that the Government ought to be impeached for their conducts He hoped that expression escapc.i fr,,m the Honourable Member in the heat of dk bate, and was not his deliberate opinion. He, however, considered that the Poor-law Amendment Act ought to take precedence over all other measures. In his opinion it would be the only means by which a recurrence of thane cetamities which had occurred could be averted. All remedial measures with out an additional poor-law wuold be useless. As England had suffered so much from her misgovern ment of Ireland, be thought it was time for her to take some decided step. Hed an efficient poor-law—had the t been introduced la st y ear, instead prose:), of the Labour rate Act, the country would have been saved an almost usele-s expenditure of four millions of money. The people at this titne of the year should be engaged in the fields preparing the land for the next harvest, in stead of which they were all running after this half idle kind of labour on the public works; there was no st curity that the same distress should not recur again next year. To avert this the true course was to introduce an efficient p , or-law. The Bill now proposed was entitled " The Destitute persons' (Ireland) Bill," and, on looking it over, he found that the first dame provided for the ap pointment of a vast number of officers; and, further, was and spend l iinit.ai w t h u at on th m el y of th o ey ,,to p b lase e e rin d. the The ihe Government was e m p o w ere d to d i ) what they pleased, year, sure present m ea before which time it was calculated that seven millions thought t of money would be required. N ow h e t by that this time the eyes of her Majesty's Government ought to have been opened. and that a measure of per. manent relief • would have been introduced, in stead of such a temporary scheme as the present. No other measure would suffice to meet the existing remedyca lamity and provide a permanentbut an efficient poor-law. That the resources of Ireland were quite s ufficient to support all its population was well known. It had been admitted the other evening Lord at the head of the Government, that Ireland could, if duly cultivated, support seventeen millions of a population. It was, therefore, too load that the people of that country should be continually dependent on the funds raised by the distressed and overtaxed working population of this kingdom.—(Hear.) H e ha;: also received in the course of this year a very extraordinary proof of the capabilities of Ireland. He moved for a return of certain imports to this country last year, and he found that a quantity of corn, cattle, sheep, and swine, amotinting to 7,000,0001. sterling ,• had been imported. I le also r eceived from 'lreland, in the course of last year, en ac count of the quantity of butter, cheese, and other articles imported, as well as the quantity supplied SUN, LONDON, T IT to the army and navy, and the wholt, amount, together with the sev-n tui:lions already mentioneti, would amount to ten millions. These were most extraordinary cart billies on the part of a country in a state of starvation — a country that could send from its shores this quantity of food. He trusted that het Majesty's Government and the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland would take means to ascertain what had become of, and into whose pockets these ten millions had gone, before they called on the House to vote away this large sum of money, taken from the hard earnings and labour of the people of this country. He was aware that out of 98.982 people in the workhouses in Ireland, on the 2d of January in this year, 18,988 were able bodied persons, and he would ask the House, were such grants to he made to k.ep people who were capable of labour? He had doubts, too, whether the law could be carried out while a distinguished member of the Government (the Marquis of Lansdowne) bud stated that it was almost impossible to carry into effect out-door relief ; but still there were classes of pers,ns for whom some thing ought to he dune to secure there relief, such as the aged, sick, and infirm. After such a declaration it was highly important that this measure should be s ttled first. The Bill did not contain provision fur en forcing its clauses, and he thought this detect ought to be remedied. A ca:e occurred only the other day at the Castlebar union, which fully proved this. The guardians assembled to consider the bankrupt con dition of that union, and Mr. Otway, the chairman, pro posed that GOO paupers should be received—the number for which the house had been erected. Thirteen voted against the proposition, and but three in its support. Mr. Otway then proposed to the board an arrangement by which the 106 paupers in the house—less than the third part for which it was erected—should be provided for, but that arrangement was not agreed to, be bause the collector stated that he would not be able to collect the rate without the aid of the mili- tary power. Now, the country must be in a very dreadful state when such means were necessary. It appeared, however, that rents could be collected without any difficulty. In the Conciliation Hall a Mr. F. Riley, a solicitor of the county of Mayo, in .. _ . speaking about the collection of rents, stated that " amidst the gieral destruction of the crops in that district the landlords were enforcing the payment of their rents." At the last sessions there were no less ,han sixteen Bilis fe. - )r the recovery of rent. [n point of fact, Lord Devon's Commission proved his argument. Workhouses to the number of ninety-nine thousand two hundred had been built with borrowed money. The Exchequer advanced one million and forty thousand pounds. An HoN. MEMBER—It will be repaid. Mr. WILLIANIS was exceedingly glad to hear it, but it would be the first public money lent to Ireland which would be so.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") The Noble Lord had quoted the statement of Sir Thomas More the other evening, respecting the condi tion of the people of this country upwards of 300 years ago. But what was the cause of the great change for the worse which then took place? It arose froni a change of landlord:4 the property ' being taken from the monasteries and religious institutions, hich had maintained the poor, and given to the parasites and favourites of the _ Court. Let them in roduce a proper poor-law into Ireland, so as to give proper security to lice and property. Let them pursue the same course that was pursued when the 43d of Elizabeth was passed. Before the passing of that Act, executions and other punishment for offences against life and pro perty were prevalent to an enormous extent, but on its introduction. These offences at once diminished. Let the same course be pursued towards Ireland, where there were at present existing a million of people who only received 2s to 2s. 6d. per week %sages. Seeing w here, in this country, the condition of Ireland was the subject of conversation, and the cause of all their wretchedness and suffering was to be traced to their he. longing to a particular:place. For himself, however, he did not attribute the distress to this cause, because in Canada and America there were large quantities of Irishmen competing and suecessrully too with Scotchmen, Eng lishmen, and in fact with persons who had emigrated from the most distingui- hed and industrious nations of the earth. The truth was the idleness of the people of Ireland was to be traced to the deficiency of their wages. What could be expected of a man who only received 2.. 6 , 1. per week ? He had only one more observation to nrike before he sat down. lie wished to call attention to a class of gentlemen that he thought ought to bear the burdens of Ireland much more so than the hard working people of this country. Now it had been stated by an Irish nobleman of high rank, namely, the Earl of Mountcashel, that the rental of Ireland was thirteen millions per annum, but that at least ten mil lions were paid for incumbrances. The land lords should also be taxed. There was another class who should be considered in reference to this sub ject. He would compel the mortgagees of land in Ire land to pay their shares, because the interest upon mort gages in Ireland bore a higher rate than elsewhere.— (No, no.) Now that class (the landlords) were very much favoured with regard to taxation. The taxation upon articles of consumption in this country was exceed ingly heavy, while in Ireland it amounted to only four millions and a half. There was no country which had less taxation for her population or ability than Ireland. He would conclude by moving the resolution. Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said that the speech of the Nuble Lord, the First Lord of the Treasury, was so ex- - - tensive in its nature, and so important in its conse quences, that with ,ut making any observation on it, by way of praise or censure, he was bound to say that it was drawn up with the greatest care, amid the greatest difficulties. Whilst he participated in the sentiments of his Hon. Friend, the Member for Louth, regarding it, and was of opinion thvt it was characterised by clear statement, lucid arrangment, and deep research, he must also say that he could not expect, from the plan proposed by the Noble Lord, any permanent improvement in the condition of Ireland. It appeared to him that the scheme of the Noble Lord was nothing more than what had been proposed to be done by all preceding Governments, to go on legislating bit by bit and temporary expedients, without laying any permanent foundation for the im provement of Ireland. Parliament hat not now for the first time to learn the great amount of distress which prevailed in Ireland. It was well known to them that 2,500,000 people of that country were in more than an ordinary condition in a state of the greatest destitution, and he could not, therefore, approve of any measures which would merely have the effect of temporarily relieving the evil results of the bad legisla tion of that House. He thought that the Irish Mem bers did their duty in eallieg upon the Govern ment to send over food to the Irish people; and, not withstanding the mistakes which had been made in carrying out their measures, he was of opinion that Government was doing its best to second the efforts of the Irish Members. He would now take a review of the measures which the Noble Lord proposed to bring forward. With regard to the Act of the 9th and 10th Victoria, he thought it difficult for any Member who had witnessed its operation to speak of it favourably; it was the general opinion that it broke up the roads, impoverished the gentry, demoralised the people, and burdened the finances of the country.—(Hear, hear.) It was not his intention to attack the Noble Lord for passing this Bill. August legislation is apt to be a hurried affair, especially whet, there is a chance of grouse shooting. But the Noble Lord should have called Parliament together at an earlier period than he had done. If he wanted a precedent, he had one in the year 1800, when Parliament was convened in the early part of November, in consequence of the high price of provisions. As to the futile excuse that he did not like to inconvenience the Irish gentry, or to take them away from their estates, it struck him that they could have been much better spired then than they could now. He felt persuaded that if the Noble Lord (the Lord Lieute nant) had had his own way, they would have had rail ways and harbours, and similar productive works, con structed, instead of what had been done by the authority of the Board of Works. He must protest against the prin ciple of the Labour Act, which went to charge the real property of the country with the calamity. He thought tne Government was neither justified by circumstances nor precedent in throwing the burden on the land. It was stated that the gentry were to blame for the lavish waste of money under the operation of the presentment sessions. To that he would answer that the money in many instances bad been voted under protest, and that the most of it had been expended under, the authority of the Board of Works , which , with its brilliant staff of officers, amounting to 11,587, had taken the whole matter out of the hands of the landed proprietors. However well quieified generally these officers might be on local matters and the business of the various districts, they had shown the greatest ignorance. It was, therefore, too bad for the finger of scorn to be pointed at the Irish landlords. With respect to the change from the present system of public works, he did not see how it was to be done. It appeared that these parties were in the position of the dramatis persona in the play of the Critic, who were all down on their knees, and the author was at a loss how to effect their exit. The Noble Lord was in the same predicament. He was at a loss how to effect the change. He thought himself that the Noble Lord would have ex ercised a much wiser discretion, if, instead of an addition to the rates fur the purpose of establishing soup-shops, he had taken into his serious attention the great impor portance of tilling the land for the next harvest. There were 750,000 lams in Ireland, and about one-half of them were under twenty acres. There was a grant to these farms of 50,0001. for seed, which would g ive about twopence per acre, or would cultivate 25,000 acres, out of all this quantity of land. If there was any public work to be undertaken let them give free labour to all farmers under 10 acres, as that class of farmers had suffered most. The Noble Lord did not deal justly with the Marquis of Sligo when ! the Noble Lord attacked the Noble Marquis of Sligo the other evening, because the Noble Marquis not only sa crificed a large dsei park, but expended 701. a-week in people of Westbourne with food. The the Government to take the Noble upony t No doubt Marquis had S L I T wiYaiisl,gtht-e-Noble M a rquis, eff las t t he aut 4 u s m . n d , ht called upon impetration of corn. November, 184 5 , and si g ne add d re , s , s J e . d it f u r s o s m e Edinburgh, i h n u t t u t th e , t tie Noble Marquis ma been reading a letiteer , ' his request in November, 1846, bad better take off the warned the Noble Lerd tha t he i w ns i t e e e a n d es o te f nr,t,evee:nbt,e)rw,arldBs4st.he T e h li e se lio e n i . IMasetmbseesrsiefohr, 4bse.caduustey,thbieutcotirtne-Iliacw)bqleueLstoirodn wellinformedas to tied. The Noble Lord could not be h h e a e d d e just snto beforet the h w e a e r n n warning, the real condition of the people of Ireland in certain places. And, to show that this was the caee, he ofthe mining a would put the House in possession of t he contents of letter which he had received from the ins p ector companyalthough hof they p Ireland. ai a wages The to O mining m a-head, had almost been on the point of closing their of mines. because the people found it almost imp ossible to obtain food. It was a very good thing for a man in c men o a P t a l n s y . . 6tl Ireland, . Ireland to get Is. 9d, a day, and yet had it not been for SDA Y MORNING, FEBRUARY 2, the munificence of the mining company, with which he deficiency must be made up ,by some extraordinary ' was connected, these people weold have starved, and i means ; bu b t with i t s he ( a. , amount nt leave t o be they absolutely laid in bed from Saturday night till contributed ie ~ ti ou tube England,the et by settled be House. wa It dispose to be' remembered, :Monday morning, with money in their pockets, unable ! :1 however, i that whenever ' England went to war, Ireland had to to obtain food. And why ?—because there Was contribute her money and the energy of her valour towards no food iii the country. There was another maintaining the contest; and when Ireland was visited by a subject to w hi c h th e N o bl e L or d h a d turne d hi s attention. The Noble Lord had estimated the waste calamity very similar to a war, she ought not to be thrown u p on he r o wn resources. He had no hesitation in telling the lands of Ireland at 4,600,000 acres, which he.proposedito House, that had the Irish Parliament been in existence this he of co t n h s e i;d e er 2 7l 4o 3 o ,7 ,o 2 o s o ,o a o c O re c u ar er b e le ut o il t yfitto reclaim. Mr. Griffiths estimates these lards at 6,290.000 great calamity would have been prevented by a great national m of en w t h ti which h ut not meet the distress out of her own resources, improve- be effort ; and when he was told that Ireland could reclaimed for course p asturage f or s h eep, l eav i ng on l y he only pointed to the fact that the year previous about 1,425,000 which w ere fi t to b e rec l a i me d f or corn to the union, Ireland incurred a debt of from theseven purposes. Th e n w h a t did t h e N o bl e L or d expect to to eight millions sterling, for the purpose cif maintaining The neglect gain from these w a s te lands? What war. How different, the Ministry had left however, was their position. thepopulation in a state of on the subject whi c h h a d b een l a id b e f ore t h e commit- terrible destitution. He He did not think the Noble Lord had tee? Why, the Governm • en. had had sufficient experi- given sufficient reason why he had not opened the ports weeks once of tile reclamation of waste lands on their model farm ago, nor had the Chancellor of the Exchequer shown good in the county of Cork. They had a model farm at a cause for not supplying the people with food. When the place called Cobellowlreith, not a very harmonious name people were starving, no doctrines of political economy ought truly. This farm was taken in King William's time, and to stand in the way ot the relief of a starittng population ; in 1836 Mr. Griffiths had estimate d the returns. By his and had Government had less scruples about interfering with account the attempt had been made to re claim the worst speculators and trade, they would not have heard of portions description of 'soil. It was called flow bog, and st as, in of the p o p ulation d y in g of starvation. Rather than suffer fact, neither more nor l ess t h an a sort of loose mud. such a circumstance as that, Government ought to have The cost of reclaiming this land is 91. 9s. 10d., and scoured the world is e a cof from l one end to t the t ot e he r for e the whole of th e va l ue o f the returns had been etn)rcnou;raee b d u s, r peculations in doing demanding, not trade, but mono d - 25/. 12s. 6tl, in four years, g iving an average o f a poly prices. He came now to the question of employing the loss of 11. 9s. 81. per acre He would new take people on public works. He would express an opinion with the next kited of soil. This use a mere compact respect to one of the measure sof Government. He alluded kind of soil. The cost of reclaiming this soil Was to the money prole:seed to be expended on public works; now Cl. 3s. per acre, and the returns from it we re on are if that money were to be expended on works of national im average, and thes w lode o; t the eroduce in four years ' portance the landlords of Ireland would not object to contri was 221. ss. 8.1., showing a 1 •of 11. 1" 9 . 1' loss He was one who t h oug h t, that for the good of the laws. Now, he had been always favourable to the commonwealth that any man's estate ought to be en- Principle Lord sai d t o h f a t there th e 0 _wtiheenn to the Noble; feted upon and taken possession of; but it must be an oti the principle of the poor-laws, he did In s injustiee toe the pen extreme ease which justified such a step, and he pie of Ireland. When the Noble Lord alluded to Castkbar, thought that when this money was to be taken from the he had forgotten to mention the fact that in Ireland there was people of England to reclaim this land, he thought that a much larger number in the poor-houses than these establish it required no little consideration; and if they were to ments were originally intended for. The poor-laws, car take this model example he thought they would ried out to the extent proposed, would amount to confiscation hesitate to expend it on these waste lands. By Mr. in Ireland. With respect to what certain gentlemen had ad- Grifliths's report, the whole of the return from the model vanced with respect to giving relief in Ireland, he had only to farm was, during three years, only 23/. 9s. Bd. When obse l rv bat e or tha e t in no de p t o: i r l u-elawuld meet howe u v s er e r a comprehensive in tb principle the Noble Lord came do wn t o th e H ouse an d t a lk e d of ° e r a; a that afflicted Ireland. Therefore the princ as iple P e present ru,n n reclaiming these 4,600,000 acres o f l en d did h e cons id er gated, with respect to the duration of relief which had been what was the worth of that land. Ile had calculated promulgated, that if there were a poor-law in Ireland they the money to be expended on these 4,600,000 acres, and would meet the distress, was erroneous. Now the found that it would amount to about 4s. an acre, which Noble Lord had said that after the passing of the was to be expended on land worth about half a-crown measures he had submitted to the House he would an acre ;he never knew a greater bubble, or had ever introduce subsequent subsidiary measures. After that heard a more stupendous attempt on the part of any harvest they should have as great a pressure as they Government to impose upon the House. Then, with had at present, therefore they must take some prompt and respect to another subject, the Noble Lord seemed to efficient measure for the absorption of surplus labour. conceive that small holdings were a great benefit to (lle reference ar.) tothisConsidering the he would loan p w outa rl h o r se u d to be advancedsuggestion with tu Ireland. How many holdings did the Noble Lord in- the Government subj ect, that it would be desirable that the amount tend to divide these 6,000,000 acres into. For his of the charge ter investigation, together with-the mode of its own part he believed the small holdings to be one application, should be carefully inquired into. He held in his of the greatest evils to which Ireland was subject, hand a letter from a gentleman who stated that the amount and if' the Noble Lot d had ever read the blue book to that would be advanced by the Board of Works, for which he had so often referred, and which contained the the purpose of subsoil would be very large in evidence taken by Lord Devon's commission ; if he deed.—(Hear, hear.) He now came to the application of could take the Noble Lord into the county of Armagh money for the reclamation of waste land in Ireland. The he would show him that the prosperity of a country Noble Lord had stated that there were six millions of waste was nut in proportion to the ratio o f p o p u l a ti on to land in Ireland. He was quite satisfied that if they reclaimed and of that character they would confer a great benefit on the acreage surface, but in the ratio of the capital eisgateed 1- people of Ireland, because they would create a eater number on that surface. The Neble Lord seemed to be quite of • • small proprietors in fee—a most desirables lass—and the unaware of the state of Ireland, and seemed to conceive scheme, if well managed, would work most successfully. With that it would be wisest to employ the people in t::e cul- respect to encumbered land (we understood the Honourable tivation of corn. He would tell the Noble Lord that the Gentleman to say) he thought it was most injurious potato was the only produce that could be obtained in to have land possessed by proprietors who had a sufficient quantity to feed the people, and that serial moral influence from their position but no capa produce sufficient for the purpose never could be ob- bility of improving their land. The Noble Lord had also tained to support the people. And if he could take Sir proposed to introduce measures of a temporary character for the R. Kean and Mr. Kingcede into Ireland,- lie commutation of tithes. That, he believed, would effect much would show that it was so. • He had himself a good, With respect to fisheries, he would offer an observe great number of cottier tenantry, and he had Lion. There were 90,000 persons engaged in fisheries in Ire been obliged to pay the rates for them all. The Noble land who might be employed in augmenting the supplies for um years. The Noble Lord should have recollected it had Lord at the head of the Foreign Department, who was ' teen pr essed, y ear afterby Commissions the subject. one eif the best landlords in Ireland. c o uld h ave to ld hi m The extension of these t year,s es-le on would.ash he had already if they had had any conversation with him in th e ca bi ne t, stated, augment the supplies of food, and, ther e fore, w ere that on one of his estates of 600 acres, the holdings entitled to the consideration of the Government. With respect were divided into only an acre and a half each, on which to the subject of emigration, be would detain the House for a at least a population of 2,000 was located, and that he few moments. They must only send out to their colonies as never received 100/. from the estate in hie life, and that many as those colonies could receive. But 200.000 persons on a nominal rental of 4,0001. he did not receive 401. m could iht b e e en tn s ir t at o e ut t o t to the e lt; colonies, jnited tate in independent The i r si nn b of those wh o 'The Noble Lord had They cou.d not get food of the land, much less pay either omitted to mention in his measures one thing that was more their rent or their rates. In another place on an estate important than all of them. He meant a measure that of 212 acres, there were 700 people domiciled, and the would secure to the tenantry of Ireland the right establishment of the soup kitchens would have as little of compensation .for their improvements, and that effect in alleviating their conditions as the other measures would tend more to the employment of surplus labour in Ire which had been proposed. This Bill was only printed land than perhaps any other measure thatco b u e ld r ! i s o e b t; e rop A o l sed. on the 29th of January last, and there would be a strong b W er ith fo o r u t i, venturing ttunrtienngd intended d po t n o the hri o g subjecthefor whichbefore the House, t he would opportunity to it until the people of Ireland had had an that Lynn employment of labour in Ireland upon railways opportunity of considering its provisions. It reminded say should be afforded by every possible means. There was one him of the account given of the cholera by a friend of his, who said it was a disease which began with other subject to which he wished to allude, — namely, -ab senteeism, as he felt fully persuaded that until death ; and if the Noble Lord proposed to give outdoor they had adopted some measure to induce the absent proprie relief to the aged, the sick, and the destitute under his tory to per f orm their duties towards Ireland, it would be im new poor-law, there would be no objection ; but if he possible to produce that state of felicity which the Noble Lord persevered in giving relief to able-bodied labourers with contemplated. 4,000,000/. were drawn from Ireland in absen.• out the workhouse test, it would be bringing relief by teeism, and it was impossible to conceive that a country under introducing a system that would commence with vice, these circumstances could flourish. He would take an oppor violence, and revolution. It would be destroying the sanity of testing the o p in ion of the House upon this question. last spark of self-aspect in the minds of the peasantry, There were several details which he would not feel justified and depriving them hereafter of any probability of in entering upon at present, but which hereafter the House helping themselves- Would the Noble Lord take the would have an opportunity of discussing. He would not con consequences of this system ? The whole of the elude without expressing a hope that the Government wou ld employ the national resources of Ireland on works'of nation a l rental in Ireland was estimated at 10,000,000/., while the advantage. number of the destitute poor were estimated at 2,500,000. Mr. ROEBUCK said, that as a Member representing an persons, and as he believed the Irish rate of reli e f in the English eounty, he hoped it would not be considered imper poor-IP,..uses was rated at Is. 9d. each, the Canst quence tinent in him to make a few observations to the Government, would be that the cost, as he had calculated it, would on the subject of the present condition of Ireland, because, if be 11,379,000 i. This would not only absorb the whole the representative of that country were to be allowed to make of the remit - el in Ireland. but a great portion of the recital their statements of misery and want, it might be fancied that of England also ; and he thought a stronger argument distress did not extend beyond the shores of Ireland, or that could not be adduced to the landlords of England than relief was needed by none other than her unhappy population. this was. They wished to put the screw on the land- i T n h a er d e iff w e e r r e e r , t however, s irit fr 0 others s ew whohtt suffered, re b ut se w n h t o e dsubffetrhe the lords of Ireland, and he believed they were right ; but Hon. Members P for Ireland—who suffered, but without byyearn they !night put the screw too far; and it should be recol- hey of the misconduct of Government — and who, while lected that the landlord only paid half the rates , and the they suffered, laboriously endeavoured to help themselves, tenant farmer the other. If they were to have the poor- and that, too, by their own unaided energies, who law of England in Ireland let them have it altogether, animated by a desire to help, disdained to throw themselves in for the landlords would prefer that to this bit-by-bit abject and it boldly, impotence before theHouse, b bu r t system ; but if they did do so let them recollect the nom - conditionstrove manfully, and in inistei? ' 't a o n their energetically nn ecessitiesameliorateektneewi tier of tenant farmers in England. If they introduced the present oor law the would have to ad- that it had been insinuated that a malignant spirit dictated the vance at least . y par or five millions more—(Hear) — opinions of those who held opinions upon the present duty of and the Government similar to those entertained by himself. He of what use was a poor-law in the time of famine. In threwback the inuendo with its deserved contempt. He had 1547, within three years after the pet favourite of the a duty to perform to his own country, and that duty he was de- Hon. Member, the 43d of Elizabeth had been passe d, a terrained to fulfil to the utmost of his abilities. The House to legislate for Ireland in a particular dearth occurred in the country, and it was universally . was now called Theup upon n oble Lord at the head of the Government, allowed that the people were starving from the want of emergen d ey : his measures to the notice of the House, had, it food. Eight years after that another famine had oc- in introucing other measures not having for their object curred, and . a Committee of that House had sat to in appeared , proposedmdiate rlief of the people of Ireland, but for the re. quire into the causes, and they had unanimously made generation the elm of that country.—( Hear, hear d .) intTohethre e measures dis a report that it was utterly beyond the power of a poor- of the Noble Lord might be sei,ara o t f e the distress of the law to prevent the sufferings of the people. How could tinct parts, first, the amelioration ec nstruction of its national it then obviate the present calamity of Ireland. There country ; secondly, the relating r- to what was passing in the cha was another great omission in the plan of the Noble racter; and the third or , d when he made the mysterious corn- Lord. He would nut speak of emigration, for that mind of the Noble _L House upon the subject of the future would be to set the whole country against any man who munication thetoland. It behoved the House well to consider con mighthave adopted a system of wholesale colonisation for dition of Ire the state of Ireland, that there were the country, and he was surprised when he saw so able when they contemplat ed broad distinctions between the classes of in that country two a man as the Lord Advocate among the Government — a s inhabitants, there was a large majority of the people hying man who had turned his attention so much to the sub its a labouring population upon the laud, and there was another this was surprised that he had not be en consulted on class, consisting of persons, who were the so.called proprietors god- important point. He was not for adopting any d of the land. Both of these classes were now as mendicants less system of colonisation, for he would place it under before the House—the one asked of th e H ouse t h at t h e people the direction of the minist er ' s relig to the colonists, comion, and have i t so should be relieved from starvation, th e ot h er d emands, in a managed that no evil sh ou ld resu l t but mending tone, that the landlords s h ou ld b e saved from '.ruin. It was necessary for the House to consider the condition con 1 ion that a great bereft should be obtained for the count', The labouring • s peech of the of those two classes. population of Ireland There was one other great omission in the sPe the re- were habitually bordering upon starvation, they were always Noble Lord, for he cenceived that no system fbirdid not upon that great calamity ; the brink of that misery, into e generation of Ireland would be complete whic h ) No abyss of which they had fallen in the present year, altogether obviate the evils of that system.— (h le . ar ' They were a people who had always been reduced to subsist I alter measure could be successful that did not entire yo do on the lowest species of food in which, in a civilised condition, the condition of the agricultural classes, it is possible for a human being to live, and upon the smallest caountry. away with this small holdings in that a class. quantity ot that unwholesome and inefficient food. They lived for it had destroyed the agricultural labourers anst would upon the smallest . holdings of land, not as in other countries, The Noble Lord complained that the Irish pease work ,_ - ti 1 " wheerree r t e h m e u r n e e tu ra r t u m w g as wagess small, were given in return for labour, but work its .London or Liverpool, but would not uncertain, badly and unskilfully because applied, without the asss e i a s a tance Ireland. What was the reason of that ? why, y vv ' ell paid, the skill which education could which eenfer cap T it h al ei c r o l ul h d render, or in England his work was required, and was well and power of mere brute force applied by numbersa t o o ur th w e as l the d while in Ireland he sought in vain fur employment, was not a having for its return the smallest quantity which a soil, n a a n tu , when he got it, he was badly paid. There the world than rally fertile, could produce. In this condition the race had able, a more industrious labourer in the Irish peasant, but in Ireland it was u seless to attempt multi p lied exceedin g l y , and the multiplication of the numbers M e mber for of that unhappy people had been aided by its proximity to to work.—(Hear, hear.) ' rho 11°12. f the absent , e England, for in spite of every means which could be adopted to Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien) complained 0 mischievous class prevent it, capital, however small, had dribbled into Ireland, landlords, but there was a much more . al owners of and those small sums had had only the effect of increasing the noun amount of population, without in the least degree elevating their than that, and that was the class of oent and of some a. • national character. Such was the physical condition of the property, men who were at the mercy or be of use to any great body of the labouring population of Ireland. Nor were who could neither help themselves be got rid of , they to be considered • to lass which ought ... . body else. This was a c ve the conaition of Ire- sent was but an acute form of the disease ; starvation was at for if they really meant to improve 0_ the evil, uo away present existing, mere starvation was constantly threatening. land, they must go to the roaontinfg. loans, and alter They were not a class of persons who, although they laboured, with this effete system g of property in Ireland. Then live by the wages of labour, for in most cases they had the the whole system of real system of government in Ire- worst of all masters—the poor man himself. This was the also alter the . with their Lord Lieu- class who came to that house and asked for bread to keep them they must t •ther do away wi from starvation. It was not because the people of England land. They moss el king in reality ; and they must o r make hire a did not sympathise with their distress that they hesitated to meeting at stated seasons tenant, Parliament assuage it, but it was because they believed that any relief take steps also for If the Lord Lieutenant was to in the Castle of' Dublin. be made a member of the wouldonly extendthe distress they . be must multiply the horrors they so fervently desired to avert. He be an efficient agen t , Cabinet. It wa s of no use to have a person in Irel d ' au would now advert to the other body who d eman d e d to b e re sitting behind a cu fibrous lumbering vehicle, in idle in- deem e d from ruin. He s p o k e not o f a ll t h e l andlor d s of Ire efficiency, while another person in a distant place was land. He took upon himself to say that the nominal pro driving them roug hly over the stones. Tlandlords hen, agai n , pii e t ors o f I re l an d were no t the there must be ne o f that bitterness of di s p os iti on, t h at —( H ear, h ear. ) Th e rea l landlords of Ireland were the acerbity on the score no of rel i g ion, that odi um theologicum. mortgagees and the tax-gatherers. Th e I r i s h l an dl or d h a d a ll ~ y ~, hid' believeth all thin gs , h opeth the desire fer show which landed pre prietorship could bestow, that forgets the c hart but they were not possessed of the wealth which should be the • hi s first peaceable, then pure,and h• all things, whic for if they did not lookjto this, the support of tha. pride, and the maintenance of that love of dis thinketh no evil ; it might appear tee be, could, play, and the consequence was, that, like their poorer country union, however binding - e .: never prove anything men, the landlords, too, were in a state of chronic disease with religious Jiff rent. .. !..t a difference, I was spirit that . would roll the masters of their own estates, and are obliged to live from than a party . . lisation to the 16 1 back the waters of civilisation L 1 century, but, hand to mouth, craving at everything, grasping at everything, in the words of the opoet,he warned them— and totally unable to perform the dut i es w hi c h rea ll y d evo l ve d e °e Nor deal damned() ~ foe, these round the land u p on t h e possessor of t h e so il. When he saw such men as On ea ch he deems his these come to demand of the House to be preserved from ruin This country owed a vast d ebt to I reland for its centu- he was driven to inquire, what was the cause of their forlorn ds of Ireland had been in ent, and it was not to be cancelled b e condition. lapsUnhaily the landlor ries of misgovernment, sure of all the miseries which a mere pecuniary com n eat on onl •-' reality the cause great measure penSti . y. It could only be s - country. They had always been a [louse passing a law for relief of had befallen their unhappy cancelled by that - _ , e,. ___ . the Ireland in a wise, largo, an° u 'inprehensive spirit, tree for that country had been dictated to by landlords. The Govern from sectarian intolerance, and parochial bigotry.— ment Lad passed the multitudes of the people in order to give (Cheers.) _ additional strength to the dominance of the landlords. They Mr. S. O'BRIEN w i s h e d to address a few words t o th e had misapplied all those powers which successive Go o v t er e nm br e i n n ts House upon this all -absorbing topic, and he did not think he had given them, and had now brought themselves ut _ er t ink h of k duty he had could better accomplish the the imposed upon himself of ruin, and the whole body of the people t 7 h b The steps star thanwere by following the topics in _ order they were adverted e vation. But how has this been effected . to istake by the Noble • Lord at the head of . the Government, when he certain and clear. It was impossible Irish landed addressed the House the other evening. T he Noble Lord , in them. The general character of the of the first pl a ce, referred t o those melancholy statistics with re- proprietor was some years past ona joyousha Bard to I re land w hi c h h a d latterly been brought under the con- h P n• l't •• • their national character was, that . they_ ospi a d i } , . sideration of Parliament ; but the Noble Lord did not and the consequence of the deficiency of that appe_ar nu pru ence , to draw the obvious deduction from them that the that their hospitality brought them constantly into result of misrule.--( Hear, hear.) He would, howeey were the v d i e r b t t ue w be a n s o , in T, i indebted, they looked around them in order to that part of the subject till another occasion, and en er, reserve . ; hpresent wants could be supplied ;to attain me at once discover ow their ked and at length to the question of distress. Now it w as not was ransacked fair to say there this end, every possible resource had been a loss of so many overspreads the country acres of tatoes the monstrous grievance which now small divisions which, under ordinary circumstances, amounted to Po ' ' its • and the distribution of land into a certain took rise, the poor men commenced a quantity ; but it was their duty to calculate what the took lace. Then it was that wasp • possession of amount of corn which it would be necessary •competition with each other to obtain to receive in order system of • duced to bid against each to replace that loss of potatoes. Proceedin 'they were in upon such seal- these small parcels ; demands of the landlords were culation, it appeared to him that the loss of g otcould 1 other , and the most extravagant be replaced by a certain quantity of corn. p No atoes l on y complied with by the parties _ who so eagerly desired pos eadilbeen, that the had tainted by Ireland, by the destruction of the potato - crop, the loss sus- ( r session y . The consequence of this not be computed at less than twenty or thirtyPae-crop, could Ireland were much_ fromi than they were millions sterling, rents inthe land went and he asked the House in what way that loses E gland. A larger return s was to be made in n up. At all events, it was q u it e clear that the i n t o the pockets of the landlords, and of all the larger sums 1811. which thus found their way into these pockets none returned back to the soil in that manner in which it is returned by the landlords of England, in the improvement of their estates, in look ng after their tenants. and benefiting the condition of the people. Such was the condition of by far the largest propor tion of the Irish landlords. There was, however, an exception to this class. He believed that many of the absentee landlords instead of deserving the censure which had been so lavishly be stowed upon them, were, on the contrary, deserving of praise. He believed, and he coald mention the names of many Noble Lords, well known to Members of that House, who would be found to be among the number of the most beneficent landlords in Ireland. He need only mention the name of a Noble Mar quis—the Marquis of Lansdowne—in order to satisfy the House of the truth of his assertion. He ( Mr. Roebuck) saw one great source of Irish evils in having the people abso lutely bound to the soil, and unable to depend upon or to de part from it. If they were sent from their holdings, they would be perfectly ; unable to obtain their living. Of all the ob servations which fell from the Noble Lord at the head of the Government when he last addressed the House, that one who had studied the subject of Ireland so much, should have stated that the sub-division of property in that country was nut an evil—that surprised him most. That part of Ireland which he adduced in order to prove his assertion, was a manufacturing part of Ireland. The land in _that district was held by persons who maintained themselves by other occu pations, and those little holdings in the neighbourhood of Armagh, to which the Noble Lord had alluded, were held more by way of recreation than any thing else. As well might the Noble Lord have said that the suburban districts of London were divided into a number of small divisions, and endeavoured to infer from that, that the sub-division of land was not injurious. He would again briefly allude to the great maskr evil of Ireland. The unfortunate division of land into these petty holdings, from wh oh the landlords could not remove their tenants, they being in reality more the possessors of the land than the landlord, themselves. What was then to be done ? Was it possible by any means so to fashion the legislation of the Government as to make it the interest of certain parties to watch over and , prevent this constant sub-division of land ? If the Govern ment could not do that, they must throw down their hands and give up the tasks. Until that could be done, it was useless to hope to do any good for Ireland. He thought, however, that it was within the legitimate means of Parliament to accom plish that end, but he must deprecate every attempt on the part of the Government to become a land-jobber, a corn factor, or a road-maker. All those things were beyond the province of Government, and the Noble Lord had stated most truly that it was impossible for the Government to feel a whole nation. He would take upon himself to say that no people could be directed in the application of their industrial powers by any Government. All that Governments could do was to protect life and property— to give the means, and ' make easy and certain the transmission of property—to make secure the titles to property, and thus subsidiarly to protect life and property, and to raise the condition of the people by education. No Government in the world ever went beyond those bounds without doing mischief, and never was so striking an instance given of the mischievous results consequent upon over-stepping those bounds than had been given in the history of the last four months. A return had been laid upon the table of the House this morning containing the correspondence of the Board of Works. Although he had not been able to go through the wholeof it, still from what little he had seen he must say that such an exhibition he never witnessed as the waste ful expenditure which that book .disclosed. He did not say intentional waste on the part of the Government, but in spite of all their best endeavours to prevent it, they were totally incapacitated properly to distribute money. The moment they set themselves up as the buyers of labour—labour directly left its accustomed and legitimate sources to flow into their channel. —(Hear. hear.) The Irish people left profitable employment in the north of England, and even Liverpool. They struck by thousands, and said that they were going to Ireland to take the Queen's money. All agricultural labour was suspended, and the consequence, starvation in its moat aggravated Corms was made apparent for the ensuing year. What was it that had done this? Should not the Government take warning by this example ? It had overstepped its proper limits, and had taken upon itself to be the provider of food and labour for the whole people, and the at tempt had proved an utter failure. What had it done ? It had demoralised the whole nation. It had taught the people this great, dangerous, and mischievous lesson—that it they could only make it appear to the Government that the distress was general, there was then no necessity for their doing any thing for themselves. He wished the Government to under stand that it had to legislate for England as well as for Ireland. Ought they not to look to the comforts of their own labouring 1 population ? Ought they not to look and carefully guard against that moral pestilence which, like a mighty tide, would roll its waves from the shores of that unhappy country to this? If such conduct were to be pursued towards Ireland as had re cently been pursued, was there not a danger of the English labourer becoming discontented, and asking the unanswerable question, why he should be oppressed with toil and bowed down to the earth by its continuous weight when he saw the Irish pauper fed with his money, they themselves doing nothing to lighten their burdens or to ameliorate their own divre,ses ? Were they, he would ask, to see this moral pestilence per vading the land, and he unwilling, or hesitating, or afraid, to put it down? He would not be terrified to do so ; and in the name of his own poor countrymen, he protested again s t t h e proceeding of the Noble Lord. He protested against the Government providing constant employment to the Irish. He protested against the hard won earnings of the English people being applied to the drainage of Irish waste lands. He lastly protested against the inefficient poor-law, proposed to be es - - tablished. He wanted to know did that Bill give to the people of Ireland a legal and necessary relief ? If not, then, they had no poor-law. If it gave them a right to legal and necessary relief, then it must give a right to relief in some place. And if it gave them that right there must be also a law of settlement and of removal, and there must be machinery to carry it into effect.—( Hear, hear.) There was no such thing, however, and he predicted that if they attempted to go on as an Hon. Gentleman said to-night by such bit by bit legislation, they would never establish any permanent im provement in the condition of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) A wise statesman would take advantage of the present emergency, - and one effectual mode by which the recurrence of it would be prevented, would be to fax upon the land of Ireland the support , of the poor.—( Hear, hear.) He protested, therefore, against the poor-law of the Noble Lord. What then were they to do ? Let thin introduce the English poor-law. If it was good for England it should be equally good for Ireland, and would, he had no doubt, be effective in preventing the destitution which so widely prevailed in that country. In addition to this, he would also like to see a searching reform into the whole property law of Ireland, mak ing the transmission of it easy, and better securing the title. There must be no tenderness evinced in this respect, for ten derness to the landlords would be cruelty to the people. ( Hear, hear.) In referring to the condition of Ireland, he did not wish to detract from the share which England, by her bad legislation, bad contributed, to produce such a state of things. The injustice of England was nowrecoiling upon herself. He acknowledged it. He deprecated, however, the attempts 1 which were being made to repeal the union between the two countries, for he believed that would be the greatest evil which Ireland yet suffered from. There was not a single benefit 1 which the people of that country had a right to that he did not support. He believed they had long been a misgoverned i people, but in no case did they suffer so much as in respect to religion, and he thought that, irrespective of this considers' ion, it would be wholly and entirely hopeless to regenerate the Irish character. If they left the Irish Church Establishment remaining there could be no hope for Ireland. They were trying to reconstruct the c h arac t er o f the Irish people, but, so long as the House left that mischief existing as it was then their efforts would Le utterly and en tirely hopeless.—( Hear, hear.) He had no antipathy—he had no fear of Catholics as opposed to Protestants— he looked upon both with the same eye, and he could not help remarking that if they left the Irish priesthood in the condition they then were, the unhappy state of things which he had been describ ing would continue to prevail. That was a subject which at present occupied mens' minds much, and was one on which few were disposed to express what they really felt. He thought it his duty, however, to declare what no one seemed disposed to avow, that as long as the Irish priest hood were left in the position in which they then were, so long would they find it their interest to perpetuate the unhappy state of things which existed. Ho did not want the Government to come forward and propose a State endowment, for die Government which attempted to make a State provision for them, would not, he believed, stand for 24 hours after.—( Hear, hear.) But if they did away with the law of mortmain, and enabled priests to acquire land by gift or otherwise, to the amount of 300/. a year, such a mea sure would tend to the pacification arid improvement of Ireland more than any other yet proposed. There was only one other means to attain that object—namely, by a repeal of the nnion, and by allowing each municipality under the federal con stitution which would then exist, to pay any priesthood it plea-ed. But any attempt to pay the Catholic priesthood out of the im perial treasury would, in the present circumstances of this country, be accompanied by the destruction of that Ministry who made such a proposal. When they did this, they should provide as far as possible for the education of the Irish people. And for this purpose they had funds in their own hands, namely, the surplus revenue of the Irish Church Establishment, after suitably providing for its wants. He deprecated any pro vision from the imperial treasury for this purpose. Nothing could be worse than this dependence en Government support. One Gentleman asked the Government to carry on public works ; another, fisheries ; another, to purchase seed corn ; an other, to promote drainage ; and another, to make railroads. Government was to do everything. The Hon. Member for Limerick said that they should provide food for the people of Ireland, and of all places in the world, that they should go for it to the Faulkland Islands—(Laughter)—barren islands, from which no produce could be brought. He wanted to know what Government was not expected to do? He supposed they were to feed, to clothe, and to shave every gentleman.--(Laughter ) It might not appear a matter for jesting, but he never heard anything so lamentable as that such a demand should come from a nation whose soil and climate were as good as theirs— so intellectual and populous a nation—their equals, and he never denied that they were so, in intellectual and physical capacity.—( Hear, hear.) There was one great difference, however, between the two nations, and that and to discharge the burdens of the - three countries, and hid a right, when i 4) visited, to relief Out of the coffers of the nation. In dealing with the Indian- revenue. upwaids of twenty years ago, Sir Robert Yeel slit ke of vur Indian pos,essions as having a right, in the ease of an •• insufficient revenue to expenditute, to as;is4ance fr:rn home. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Bath ( Mr. Roebuck) had attacked the Irish iandlords, but tie thought he was justified in saying that the Irish landlords, during the present calamity, bad done all in their power to alleviate the distresses of their country. Ile had already stated his opinion that the poor-law ofboth countries ought to be assimilated, and he was still strongly of that Onion ; but he warned the Govern ment, that at such a time, they would find it utterly impossible to raise the ratesnecessary for the support of more workhouses. He believed that the surest, way to benefit Ireland was by the application of capital in the development of her resources. They would thus teach Ireland to make use of the advantages which lay mound her, and then he trutted that a happier day awaited her. j Sir R. H. INGLIS said that, notwithstanding his great respect for the Noble Lord, he could not but observe that, in the beginning of his speech, he had endeavoured to revive doc trines which he (Sir H. Inglis) considered to have been long ago exploded. The Noble Lord began his speech by saying that in the city of Cork there had been a combination amangst the salters of cern, I.y which the price of corn hod been raised in the in, k , ,t. Now, it should be remembered that the city of Cork con aintel 100,000 inhabitants; and, admitting the fate, which he was by no teens willing to do, that there had been such a combination, were there not I.lcll citie, as Water forei, Dublin, and Bristol ? And could rny man seriously be lieve that, supposing there as ere ten ships engag , d in the com bination, some one -of the ',umber woeld rot—to use a rul trarism—strip over—( Hear, hear)—and the rival dealers from those towns would soon put an end to the pressure in the market. He ro , e immediately after the Hon. and Learned Alember for Bat h.• because he had, in his first sentence, stated that he rns as an English Meieher, reeegnizing the principle that the question before them should not be treated as one of local, but of national importance. Availing himself, there fore, of ale privilege of being an English Member, he wished to take the earliest opportunity o ohjrct to a large portion of his speech. Indeed he should have thought, that in the pro posed measures there would have been ample food for legisla tion to the most voracious appetite. But not content with the three Bills upon the table, the Learned Member, er wi y th ointhexer haustible ingenuity, had contrived to b r i ng in vexata questio.—( Hear, hear.) For the special accommoda tion of one Hon. Member, he proposed to revive the appro priation clause ; and for the accommodation of other Hon. Members he proposed several other additions to the policy of the Government. The Hon. and Gallant Member who spoke from the bench behind him (Sir R. Inglis), also surprised him very much, in not referring to the comprehensive policy of the Noble Lord, end by viewing it as whit-by-bit policy. If ever there was so large a measnre proposed for the regeneration of a great nation, he had read history but to little purpose ; for whether it was right or wrong, he looked upon it as most comprehensive. His immediate object in rising was to bring back the consideration of the House from extraneous subjects to the real question, namely, the miserable condition of the great bulk of their fellow-subjects. At that moment the eves of the empire were concentrated upon the House with a deep sympathy for the sufferings of their fellow creatures in Ireland. And when the Member for Bath talked of express ing the indignation of the people of England at the measures of her Majesty's Government, he, for one, hoped that he would find himself mistaken, and that the English people would feel nothing but an intense desire to promote the present benefits about to be conferred upon the Irish people—he limited himself to the present benefie—for both with respect to the cause and to the re eedies, he did think it their first duty to consider in what manner those evils might be relieved. He at the same time quite concurred wi h much that had been stated with regard to a great mass of their tellow countrymen in Ireland—he meant the landed proprietors—there might be still such cha asters as those which had been so inimitably depicted by the talented novellist, in " Castle Rack-rent." But whether they do commit a series of faults, they have been stricken by the hand of God and it became them to give their readiest, thei. most cheerful, and their most active sympathy. And how had the calamity been borne by these poor people? He did not recant any praise which he had bestowed upon the people of Scotland, but the debate was on Ireland exclusively, and he did not in the least exgegerate when he said that they bore their sufferings with unexampled patience. He desired to draw the attention of the House to pertain reports made by the agent of a most benevo lent religious body—the Society of Fr.ends, who had deputed certain members of their body to visit Ireland with the warmest and the most intelligent desire to promote their in. teres•s. The statement which they give of the actual distress is one which it is not pleasant to read, but he desired permis sion to draw attention to it, in order to show how well the people had earned their warmest sympathies. The Hon. Member then read several extracts. One was that the poor starving creatures in the districts of Louth and Leitrim were keeping each ether alive by sharing their last morsel. This was a general statement, but he could give hundreds of individual cases. He could not rift ain from one in particular. The visitor entered a cabin of about four feet high, and about nine - feet square, on the side of a road, he found the inhae bitants to consist of a widow and several children ; 11- 4 addition to the family, he saw an old superannuated wo man, sitting in a corner, and rocking to and fro her matted grey hair, which fell over her face, and added to her squalid and wretched appearance. She was scarcely clothed ; immediate y behind her was her pallet of damp and dirty straw, which she hardly ever left. It appeared that she was no relative of the widow of the house, who allowed her to stay there merely from a feeling of clprity. Might they not say of her as of the widow of old—" She gave more than they all." The Right Hon. Baronet proceeded to read statements, exhie biting the lamentable state of distress in different parts of the country. An Hon. Member had referred to the workhouse of Castleitar, exhibiting the utmost degree of destitution, but he (Sir R. H. Inglis) knew of other circumstances equally afflicting. One union was 2,0001. in debt, and notice was given the other day that unless the rates were paid up the guardians would be obliged to sell the house and turn the wretched inmates out upon the world. He knew another instance, where the inmates of the union were obliged to sleep upon the straw, as they had nothing in the shape of bedding. The whole appearance of affairs indicated great approaching social change which would not only affect the peasantry, hut the landlords also, and could it be wondered that such a change should take place when the rents of that uthappy country had so greatly increased without any corresponding in • crease in the value of the soil. He thought that some means should be adopted to induce Irish aleentees to return to the localities, which would be much benefited by their pre sence, and although a direct tax might not be expedient, still a virtual impost by an efficient poor-law might have the effect of inducing them to remedy the evils which were so created in a material degree by their lengthened residences in other countries. Colonel CONNOLLY said, that while thanking the Noble Lord for the wise and beneficent measures to Ireland, and With respect to the particular measures before the House, he thought that not above two or three objections could be urged against them. He considered, however, that these might be advantageously met in committee. They might, . for instance, limit the facilities which the measure gave for the exertion of local patronage. But there was another and a much greater objection. He regretted to find that many Hon. Members, and with them the lion. Mem ber for Stroud, had one panacea for the ills of Ireland-- namely, the opening of the poor-law to its fullest extent. Every workhouse except the workhouse of Castlebar, had been made to contain as many paupers as they could possibly hold; and he was persuaded the evils of the system would be much increased if they extended relief to the able-b idied labourers who might seek it untler the arrangemebts proposed by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government. life con sidered the present poor-law sufficient for all the purposes required. He was bound to say that it had worked admirably well since it was introduced, wherever it had been properly carried into effect. In his part of the country, near to Dublin, this had been the case, though it might not have worked so well in the rt mote parts as was desirable. He confeosed he looked with apprehension on the extraordinary rat, a that would be required, if they ex tended, in the manner proposed, the plan of relieving the able. bodied ',Mowers in the workhouse. The proposition of the Noble Lord was one he was desirous of treating with great leniency, still, he (Colonel Connolly) could not avoid pointing out the difficulty that would arise from th e pl an under the ccmsidetation of the House. With respect to the Castlebar proceedings, which had been referred to, he had been informed by Lord Lucan, that the reason why a rate had been objected to there, was the tact that 2,000/ of an old rate remained uncollected, and it was considered that that should be got in befoie a new rate was levied. Neither was he satis fied with the Government proposition for the cultivation and improvement of the lands, and thought it would not operate so beneficial y as was believed: There was another point to which be wished to refer; it was the , proposal to advance 50,0001. for the purchase of seed fer the land. He considered this was too little, and hoped the Government would extend the loan. Some apprehension was expressed that many of the MA estates were so encumbered with debts and mortgages that they would not be able to re deem the advances, and that the property would pass out of their hands. However much he might regret that, he did net doubt but that in many instances it would be attended with goad results. He knew of two estates in the county in which he resided, which had changed hands with the best effects. While in possession of the previous proprietors, there was no thing but misery and litigation. Two-thirds of the cases brought before the county magistrates were from these estates; but since they had passed into the hands of the Marquis of Clonmel an& Mr. Parrim, there had been a vast change for the better. A more rapid transition in the condition of a body of people he had never known. Mr. HUME—The Hon. and Gallant Member who had last spoken said that he trusted her Majesty's Ministers would not allow the able-bodied men of Ireland to become a burden upon the land. Did the Holt and Gallant Member mean that they should becomes burden upon the people of England?—( Laugh ter and cheers.) Some Irish Members entertained proper opi nions and principles on this subject, for they avowed that Ire land should support its own poor, and so raise themselves in the scale of society and national independence.—( Hear, hear.) What appeared to him (Mr. Hume) the most singular feature in the case, was that the Hon. Members expressed their grati tude to her Maje3ty's Ministers because they gave them money. --("Hear, hear," from Colonel Connolly.) "Hear, hear," said the Hon. Member. Why, because the Government gave money to the landlords of Ireland. If that was the opinion of one so eminent, and so distinguished, and so well known, as the Hon.: Member, it was time to ask the Ministry if they wereeno_toevnetmer: ing upon a wrong course ; it was time to ask th 7 reland. ment not to give money to the landlord o f be Ireland. dragged r r w e i l so a eu e rsi d ide s w with money, of Ireland, and at down in a ffirmedil ti s t f h u a t t i le En attemptgla England to and remedy meadhye Scotland tophiolm tlhfeth:aymweetriemetotobesubpuplidyenthede lwa-nit.dhlort he could see no end to the evil. It did appear to him from. ' certain statements ma de by the Noble Lord that he was dis posed to take a proper view of the remedies fitted for that country. There were indeed some omis sions, and he (Mr. Hume) had taken it upon him self to point out a few of them. While they were trying means of palliating these distresses, he did not see one measure calculated to afford a hope of any radi iami change. It to l t theas, h w e a s H , t o h u e s r e e t f o o r e h , a v a e m b a s t : t c e a r l i o m f p t r b ov e e m m , e n n t t s t e ir ri r o a u d s ic w u h u ic m h e) w t eLe ug to bt gu th id a e t b A e l f i o n re ist t e h r e s y in ag th re e t 7 m for a e tte i t r st,haenpdrihneci(phl principles . to grant one shilling they ought to have a distinct statement of the course which the Ministry intended to pursue. When the House heard nothing 4dvanced for the purpose of relieving Ireland but money —money—money— ( Laughter)—he could tell the Ministry that their treasury would very soon be empty.—( Hear, hear.) Seven or eight millions of money were to be expended, and he believed that if no reme dial measures wire introduced they would require to spend three times that amount. They might depend upon it that the best time to meet an evil was at the commencement ; and it was better to do so by other means than by spending the balance in an Exchequer which was left full by their prede cessors. If a want of employment was felt in this country and in Scotland, with a decrease of exports, and a diminution of wages, he should like, to know how at that time they would be enabled to procure ten or eleven millions of money by way of loan. Why, it would shake the credit of the whole country. He thought that same permanent, and not merely temporary measures ought to be adopted in this crisis. Let them look to the degraded state of Ireland, the system of land tenure prevalent there, the state tit the landed proprietors and the degtaded state of the people altogether, and he would defy them to produce another country so truly wretched. Be acknowledged that a great part of this arose from the manner difference consisted in moral courage.—( Hear, hear.) This was the quality which enabled the English people to sustain themselves under the pressure of opposing circumstances, and gave them an inherent power to struggle successfully with all difficulties which might obstruct them ; and he did not hesitate to say that if the Irish people once acquired this virtue of self reliance they might soon hope to be running in the same race of prosperity, to see the evils by which they were at present surrounded completely removed. and the greatness and power of their country permanently e. tablished.—(t heers.) Lord BERNARD deprecated then discussing the causes which led to the unfortunate state of things which prevailed in Ireland at a time when, according- to the Noble Lord (the Premier) a famine of the thirteenth cen-ury was operatirg on a population of the nip-teenth. While they were discussing on these points it should not be for gotten that thousands were passing away from time to eternity. He read various letters which he had received from the part of the country with which he was connected ( Bandon) to show that the Government had not established depots at those places at which they had promised they should be established, and the consequences which had resulted, particularly in the south of Ireland. Then, again, at the worst period of the famine there was a general and disgraceful combination amongst the corn merchants to raise the price of corn. He read voluminous documents to show how general and how injurious this combination had been to large numbers of sufering people. One letter from a commissariat in Cork he particularly referred to, illustrative of the class of traders whom the Government seemed disposed to favour, and reluctant to interfere with. Ile had no hesitation in saying that the means which the Government adopted in the autumn fell far short, and were consequently most ina dequate to meet the emergency, because, from the o.CeOUttts which they were in the habit of receiving they must have shown the full extent of the calamity which they would be called upon to meet. The Labour-rate Act, which w as passed at the end of last session, had done much to injure the country, as farmers and their labourers forsook their learrihti:nn the ate labour for the purpose of labouring on the r oa d s . unfairly, at t the sessions were often co n d ucte d in clamour, and and works were devised which were of little, and often of no advantage, to the They had been told by H on. M embers on e th o e uh o t t r l y i er — sid ( e n o e f a t r be ) House that the calamity was not a national one, and that it was one which it was the duty of resid ent l an d owners to have met, without aid from the Government ; but in his opinion, if ever there was a n a ti ona l calamity, that which had affixted Ire land was certainly one which came within that category. Ireland had contributed her fair share to the aggregate taxes,