The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-03-19 00:00:00

ILnigenmeetiveder ryowwnicosnventional qualification- r —not to say any thing nts, natural or red. e kof th as uncalled for acq as ui it was Th absurd and un•e NNELL said that he was in the habit of be: he did not mind it. He had ag itated, t' ga m :cessfully, against that faction which le Lawman now publicly disclaimed. Bu t be d trued gentleman's merits were known- - a ll iti l ady to do justice to his well-known ree r ' t h now filled than he (Mr. O'Connell) 4 ° 5 0 1 him where he was, in the office of Recorder , , y could place whom they pleased theret:h: h bar had no chance of competing Wi th ice. did said that the magistrates of Kilkenny and that they had only themselves to :th the county was. coal; 3ERT surned with the most sovereign that the gentlemen who sat around hi house by agitation. NNELL said he would not press the que sti l l withdraw his amendment. • ter° CTWOOD rose, but was immediately iu I seated cries of ("Question.") t IRMAN • then rose for the purpose of pu sea INGHAM stood up, but the noise wh1cli),111: iccasioned by coughing, and cries of ,5 me, as to induce the hon. member to this rob E rose, and declared that if the hon. m e t express his opinion on the question L'„l, Ir. Hume) would, at once move that th e air and report progress. Did they wis h to nits from being heard ? d to INGHAM again rose, and said that he ha he rules of the house ever to infringe ti f,, id too much regard for the public time ve thened period the attention of those eng a t', te. The hon. member then proceeded Leda. , uof the preamble of the bill - . He co n t. utmost importance that the truth or fa''i; should be decided, ina sm u c h as all th e e ° bill depended on it. that man then put the original question, bill be postponed, which was agreed t0.,..s RMAN next put the question, that the P', s F the bill, and proceeded to read it as folloip acted, by the King's most excellent 31,1 advice and consent of the Lords spiri tuaL commons, in this present Parliament ful uthority of the same, that it shall be laW n o uant, or other chief governor or goveru- I] . L. DuLL ER opposed th e amen d ment. p "wl' a conside re d i t necessary to pass the clause as I_l:e.sent stood, because political agitation had attained a was He felt it u tterly incompatibl e w ith goo d gover n me nt. whie n necessary to offer his explanation of the b he intended to give, because he knew that he c%exposed to imputations in Ireland. r. 0 4 , IsTliAs'spoke against the amendment. vezt,"o.,rizt.t. expressed his surprise that the hon.. member 4, ru Mr. Lambert) should. complain of political agi olieseause if it had not been for agitation respecting the • qtiestion he, being a Catholic, would not have had a In that h ti 0 118 e. "Ea'r observed, that although he approved of the h e watsespecting the Catholic question, it did not__f n o cr lllw n lid ( Hearprove of the agitation at present prevailing ') r.e fia the oil,an, Mr. Walker, and Mr. Dominick Browne sup sa tm i, e .: ; llls e, on the ground that it was necessary . to • agitation, which had reached an alarming ld.. 041. c thnen en,t was th en negat i ve d. i lle nc rcßla. said, that he wished to propose, as an 141,1 riset the remainder of the clause after the words . xiil mbly" should be omitted, but he felt himself i tl e li si a n tiste d• Ile had now been actively engaged in dis a further five o'clock, and he had not physical strength to trelaer• Under th ese c i rcumstances, h e hoped t h e no bl e es of ,eensent to th e c l ause b e i ng postpone d t i l l to-morrow. 14 r ‘Gess ° O n.") He moved that the chairman should orc p gr. I l e to a t a lli e, el' expressed a wish that the committee should r.(),Coe,le,n upon th e c l ause . RI: • N ELL withdrew his amendment. 15 . In vENT then moved that the chairman report pro tr. oc9.ries of " Divide.") lvere‘j,°NtiELL put it to the house whether . the Irish mem ; ,11 , , h ( Le be allowed an opportunity of defending themselves . at th at ) He had an amendment to propose to the clause, lassi, late hour he was unwilling to commence a fresh r. G n . e huRINIG thought it was too bad that the whole business her h a should be stopped because the hon. and learned n teortiie_d exhausted himself by attending a political union P. o , e , e g• (Hear, hear.) Rust. 'el,ll4El-1. denied that he had shown any symptons of i, I t °ll , , and said that he little expected such a species of en° be the pon him by one who boasted that he was a 4011 tative people. h ierl 4 , 1 " 110 11P thought it unreasonable in the hon. and ri k „ e mber to ask the chairman to report progres before Ir. m ße under consideration was disposed of. (Hear.) 4. • Cl o • C oNNELL accused the hon. member for Shoreham pers„t'llg) with haying been guilty of needless and uncalled ~lialilY towards the hon. and learned member for Dub- Valy,nr ) ; but he advised the hon. member to look to " °' ue al ighthimself to a similar personal a lt., f ,(l - le ar subject P B alt' s :, ° , l l4 NG said thatthat the hon. and learned member had Wenty times in the course of that night that the Vhaust ed. With respect to personal attacks, he put it ttcheti'llse whether the hon. and learned member had not er ect f %it into personalities against every member who 44 011 '941 : him, and endeavoured to browbeat him for utter 'lir, Oilhons• (Hear, hear.) ~,gilort,l,l'rEa und st od the object of the noble lo . rd " 14 v - ' • 7a s to have er the o clause read, in order to enable him 'se, eatclie ainendinent, which he had already described to the ? 11 1 1 ,,, c1 e q I(v)lo)tueiLiti take forma The discussion of the cladse so )1 e, r. 0, 0 . place on the next day of the committee's t s th e °'\NtLt. said he would not, upon that understanding, tte r *nton for the chairman to report progress. etid ea l short discussion upon the effect of the proposed e N pe r t : i t was moved by Mr. Stanley. Its object was to e . ‘ b , B ; 01 --° , 11 ,,s who should violate the enactments of the first is lc lli - e t ?be tri c e pie d . tion of the courts-martial, and leave 'I), haw, and punished according to the ordinary course ' ., ll . ( ' e al li e n n i rl i rrie 4 ll l,l l having been the motion adopted on h motion - of 'Lord Althorp, reported P i e tp and„htained leave to sit again on Friday. .I. lc ls •' n Any brought in a bill to regulate corpo ,,t,„ 1 , 1 1 B erm OCATE . k' -si ' t tiro, a first time, and ordered to be read vi e ell Friday. it):::, Ric, REGISTERING BARRISTERS. 18 1 ',.‘ 5 .1 1 b e gave notice, that he would on Friday move that _ 'fh t- "tlg b tiade to defray the expenses incurred by the 4.k e oth 41 riSters under the Reform Bill. . —llNettli,torders of the day being disposed of, the house 11 , 1 1 . , g e•if-past one o'clock. i a ' t to r lIIURSDAY, MARCH LI. titPliloisik4okf tpresented a petition from Truro for the better Ltd - •';. ,,, a,„.,‘ Sabbath ; from the same place for an inquiry re " , ltial' f - ( leo l i t : 14 ' 1 laws; and from the panshes of St.A t n e d in w . 4r z- t qth °e * U le-Martyr, London, complaining of h ro 011 ks e la nd -tax. . best ed /3 N; ) , 4 „ 11 , 1 ,aintained that it would be very unfair to those L' air ran • 'neir property in the land-tax to have it repealed Le r: e 00},L; W ith the wish of the petitioners. q l4e( bedl ll4 ,s prepared to show that the inequality might 1 r rt ( Y,. . 'l `"ellt any injury to the holders of that species of 0,,J C oNN iiieh q ill f a . E ll. had a petition to present from the city of he b was 8 . % ,„ ( )wr of a better observance of the Sabbath, and ..Rtl l o4 . ial l ' ne d by persons of all parties and persuasions. 6i r i Whe ti e , ll lber was proceeding to support the prayer at RVI I,v b ur'• was called to order by rite)3 sp ~,.'l . l l) Lay on the ground that the practice of mak .l h:li n r,"" On ihe presentation of petitions was a great 94 L ,„ As ti , eof the house. (Hear, hear.) itto, itti'z'Presented petitions from the cotton-weavers m of t ok - 6: l ,Chorley from Bishopsgate-withont, an r 9 - " 11 favour' of the Factories Labour Regulation l it ir • - kt of VNELL here rose, and proposed, as an 81:12 _,. a* the word " Ireland" the following athority of the judges of the Court of T-ing rv i , r any two of them." The hon. and lea that the object of his motion was to wal s udicial persons, who would be imme diate , iament for their act, necessary to the Fu on of meetings and assemblies. The h °ll c ° l so fiber concluded by observing, that he ha il, not as not to render the sanction of a' 'ish judges necessary to legalize the °Jill LEY said he had heard the amendments ind learned member, himself a lawyerfAi ise, because that hon. and learned m ein a isious, in terms as just as they wer e f u n c tion' r „ nc tio ogling of judicial with executive 1 men proposed to introduce an amen al e direct effect of blending the judicial f°Ore, Dn the grounds he had stated, the re amendment. 4NELL said that declamations in f a vour °C o the constitution came with a peculiar L. secretary, who had done his best to ion, as far, at least, as it related to 'revs, very bill, was about to put down charliig ; totally unconnected with political &ell 110 1 .nt PERRIN objected to the transfer vi ti t cake of the legislative _power to the exe %e however, very strong doubts as to the ;),'/ and assemblies which were pointed t at b3' ly did not come within the scope ° I danger of their continuance consequ,f tb o r, k stat m e verne of nt, which was ally subjected toited. ell things natur exc g would be more injudicious, and pa:ee, liberty, to vest the judges with the P t c) :, l ‘, 4 ings, than to tran s fer that power at Hour observed, that he should hardly I'3 and learned gentleman needed to have 1 it the constitution, on the subject of sion of the constitution. wits looked at the clause with consiuero-0 a lord-lieutenant with very . arbitraiY 1 1. said (as far as we could undertn't) whether it was necessary to s trengte` ic hel invent of Ireland beyond the law, in of agitation should be suffered to Co nt i eater enemy than he to arbitraq Pe i w n e r i t i kind was necessary to enable the .13. vigour against the system of agitai' , i nra bl° ,_ a l i CNELL complained of the ael , ltat WA'', the hon. member, in supposing .. (Coo illy the question before the holl i d be ft; question was, whether there shoal of eland. (Hear.) Would the t, a utoa aut clause, or must the Lord Li e l a ce ? t , are what meetings should take P t to iais t ilk about agitation. The prest o tboY ith admirable mock-modesty, " h e ar.) i ided by agitation. (Hear, hear, , e D ' t o ---- ? (Cheers from the oppositi° l " . 1 k ie tit t , an ox now tu 1, .ae dot__ presented a petition from Aberdeen, for a re clause hoped the house would, t hat tb I. "d duty malt ; from Huntly, for a repeal of the duty clause under consideration, atw hea r.) k ~serv a„ 11l several Presbyteries in Scotland, for the to add fuel to.the fire. (Heal' , ~.., of „ u e o ,le of the sabbath. would adopt the recommendatill oc eas o :o:tab le i '` r., LL said that he had given notice of a motion of san admirable pacificator 0 0 , o lliget e t ie Si a efe t t , 9 °l'tance to Ireland, and which had been ward to to mediate between two " it Ale.A v e IN II th, t „Portant by recent circumStances ; but as he had s there were exceptions of cha r ber s Opt, 'Jr f e 'louse many reproaches thrown out against Irish i were no exceptions, Hon. me ul ot ecti7 1 4 '4 1 , ip e ttie i s Tisluning so much of the public time, and pre -150 orphans being deprived of Pf l? A ti .ith.r gi , B ll ol , ld l uess of the people of England being proceeded might take place under this bi.`,, nat e; • t i lil lti ttdks on that account, though himself knowing the y than they had now got might ' / to t kti: ha4 B 2 l e d as of those reproaches, postpone the motion n meetings be prevented? ofi le a sf 41, 14 othe . - F for to-night till another opportunity. VER said that by this act the Pf d re he fis aißetiss,rnhusiness was postponed, in order to make way lof the protection of the law, ; Lu ll' 14N,. T__of the Church Reform (Ireland) bill. ed despotism, or mitigated onlY ~o , I, N 1 ., ,, e04 N .,, (.14(v8E.11Pooi, BOROUGH COMMITTEE. be men they were subject to. d icislu ; e4etit" te u° .,, ,aid it was impossible for him to follow the ex ment was negatived without a t tot l'r tf) t rl t h e '','.' Imstpone his motion. The matter was so e agreed to. , „on i • re d, tq l. ti t ,i; ilghtest delay would prove a serious inconveni tse empowering the Lord Lieute,r c i 24. h _ Ii Parties for whorale appeared. The other night he u „d i c i , fe a a t sl , of vterpt;ititetition from the corporation of Liverpool. praying person?' from assembling lead to a breach of the peace .. b e e n t, r 'th 44 hitt (4 ; k t ) l ' counsel before the committee on the borough of Arms proposed as an mend l : , 4 , 1 ) (1 ' 4 41 , 1 1eti ti jit was now his intention to more that the prayer only in "proclaimed districts, on tbe o.. !„,)• tell tl , A cest i ,`, l ._ be complied with. It was not his desire that EY objected to the aniendfa °° ,"farcil l a nc tvv e „ t eith' e ak V delay should be occasioned by this proceeding, ild be the tempting—in tir'w a , oot wo •s 4t rg e l . er pi t , t e , Willing to agree to any arrangement to one of proclaim a district which the bill clt il , l et "4 ef llhet„, from having the assistance of more than one he The main object 0 core th,,e foc i, ,; ) ,re th , ive ll 'ble lord concluded by moving that the corpo use agitation schemes which, gra% % d Cai, W e Liv e °l be heard, either 1i - 'themselves themselves or counsel, iances in Ireland. Now, tt e n, whic ,ote 9ll 6 e . tt le 4B (L/ o , l ° o l borough committee. Dubil„ froul ete i . ,gitation was the city of ,N, r , intsavpsed the motion,. on the ground that it would urbance (loud cries of " Hettt_, loc at l's tit resl B N' t ble ex? e l eation of the corporate funds, and delay to a :if the gallant member's amen . roela i ! u ,o4th at t il s , i chot t , s l it th e proceeding of the committee. ateuant would be forced to y„,,, being 0•,, ,)1, hi ., e i ,„t4 r-Moa se 11 1 ) 1 1 c:sited the Motion. He knew that upwards it its peaceable inhabitants i qu on. weLli ed '''' 3ll C t he 41 "letis e l, f er witnesses had been issued, and be thought unset and before sunrise. , be i n vest e . th e one for d' - ' c e % ~..., Are 4.,7' 111 1 - litt p g ' l BB of evidence which would be brought be the Lord Lieutenant woula I. 4 1 ' of e o ` e could not be satisfactorily investigated with distinct from the other-1 ) o f the p s e,a a o , :l atiq c). C oyiN.... uu set. q) w xt./.., 8 • .eetings tending to a breaf for the ? : c l i 174, 1 ,. (AIM , if aid that , the. propeoition of the noble lord ig a district, and a thiru ot c onne"„ L di - 0 4 fer ed th ile I. These three were p Lat ,here -,. 1 ., , p. w -c alto e on a cceded to, only lead,to delay and ruinous ctau 1 8 4 , YN N • 'I au dsidered that the appointment of nominees iy no means followed., t t. also e. ; ti 'le - lb. ' SUp ee of counsel unnecessary. la .` a ttOra r kit , Q . SOn. POr at courts-martial s hould ake an bell et C t- d aeeu sea t ed the motion, because 'he thought that rs were prepared to 1 1: 1 retn eving , o +he t eitlttlett:i an opp o ,' ef so heinous an offence as bribery should yould have the effectstrict, altobb e J Nii k hl a N VlLLttlity c.f, defetadin.hiinself. in even a proclaime d ' it , them to x„lte, ‘ st the cur, thought the case which would be made a military . tribuna , , " oar. ) - , -11 • tql)**ll‘, `. Y for t h 'on of Liverpool so flagrant, that there ry civil jurzsdiction:ibil;on. entic•nn t 1 l:kti'NETT ,i d e employment of counsel.. HELL begged the rir reclaim Lord Lle I \t : `: n tu a ' be. ,j h a g tB 2 rl W aS ten thrrred. )11 the one hand, an une.•-•. ,i r tt ir c o4t t t c that the, object of:the noble, lord's Which ha. 4 h? impediments . in the way of invesj.igat amendment to P%ed districts na_ifi ori t' N; B ti t te.ohhuse, after ; et i hufore-the house for three years. il :s of those undistu as it stood tofr „ ea ce i p c „,4,,t k \the attendaa"PPointing nominees, would not give its heed by the clause as that tlt eir de l ,polho e l ,, l ei V . , 4 ,• IttpLEy p„._ e of counsel. i disturbed ones, exemption front , _ foc oi y e yit i i- Many yoilia—gretted, that the committee was cora mum them an frentleman that Mc ettY ' 40 4 4% l adV iSable g an inexperienced members, and he the right hou• e- bauce, was a, pr 0 ri h 'Ca. framer efe ho it that th • . . . etelnyestigations should be assisted l free from distur . ns o f its h atl ed • lenTh et v assertp i' turbance. 1 e at . it s , e.r, WhO s a lA I the unfounded. . with c is ,too'. A , tet,d c onstituti u. that he belonged to the committee, identified agitation doter sit \ rh •ur, b an ee of on. was id support the „.„ that • , (44, 'w• ... coinisel also expressed an opinion that ONT would ttina gal •ti ~. Anv Ey „, unnecessary. it necessary to pu ~ ne( f Ireland. . . 4 . of the l i ",, sientl e was of • • me n would t , °Pinion that the-presence of pro ves the curse o „li• O •oi.) „„ ...., e •be of great advantage to the cona felt that the Ma ' foilV. i" "" its t'dote in its , arauders 6 , carried an i „ in n had presumed to all iiimmilMligi■■• r THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD. mittee, as it would enable them to put their questions in a legal form, and would thus afford them an opportunity of examining ten witnesses in the same time in which otherwise they would only examine one. He gave. his sanction to the motion of the noble lord. After some inaudible observations from aniion. Member, Lord ALTHORP said that he entertained dOubts whether counsel ought to be heard before the committee. The only ad vantage which the committee could derive from the attendance of counsel would be by making them guide the examination. He trusted that if the petition were granted, due care would be taken to prevent the learned gentlemen from improperly de laying the examination of the witnesses. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL contended that the employment of eounsel before the committee would tend to abridge and not to lengthen the business which they had to accomplish. The counsel should be confined to cross-examination, and should not be allowed to make speeches before the committee. An hon. Member (name unknown) said that he never knew labour abridged by making lawyers parties to it. (Laughter.) If lawyers were to be heard before the committee, he thought that in common justice to the members whose fortune it was to serve upon it, the ballot ought to be taken anew; for, undoubt edly, those members would, in such a case, have to perform double the duty which they contemplated when they first con sented to serve upon it. After a short conversation, in which Mr. Warburton, Sir M. W. Ridley, Mr. Benett, and Lord Sandon joined, the motion was carried without a division. PETITIONS. A conversation of some duration took place respecting the waste of time suffered by the public in consequence of the nu merous speeches made by hon. gentlemen in, presenting peti tions. IRISH CHURCH REFORM BILL. On Lord AL-molt P'S moving that the order of the day for the second reading of this bill be now read, Mr..C. WYNN said, that when this bill was first introduced into Parliament, it was doubted whether, as it related to a great change in the religious establishment of the church of Ireland, it ought not to have originated in a committee of the whole house. By this bill it was proposed to put an end to nearly one-half ot the bishoprics ot Ireland, and to suspend all ap pointments to certain benefices in that country. Whether an alteration of so great an extent did not bring this bill within the standing order of the house on matters of religion, he would not now stay to examine ; he would only say that in his opinion ministers would have acted more prudently had they conformed to the usual practice in cases of this sort, instead of originating a new precedent upon it. They had also transgressed another rule of ancient standing, by which it was provided that no bill imposing a tax upon the community should originate except in a committee of the whole house. On the 18th February, 1667, the house resolved, and the resolution had since become a stand ing order—" That if any motion be made in the house for any public aid or charge upon the people, the consideration and de bate thereof ought not presently to be acted upon, but adjourned till such further day as the house shall think fit to appoint, and then it ought to be referred to a committee of the whole house, and their opinions to be reported thereupon, before any resolution or vote of the house do pass thereon." Now, if a tax varying! from £5 to £l5 per cent. can be laid upon church property without originating the bill imposing it in a committee of the whole house, what was to prevent a similar tax from being laid without similar formalities upon any other species of property? The principle upon which our ancestors had adopted this form of proceeding was, that when money was to be raised upon the subject, tie proposition should have the fullest and most frequent discussion; and the House of Com mons, acting upon that principle, resolved on the 11th of March, 1716, "'That no bill be ordered to be brought in for any work proposed to be carried on by tolls or duties to be levied on the subject in particular places till such petition has been referred to a committee, and they have examined the matter thereof, and reported the same to the house." These burdens, which now fell upon the landed proprietors of Ire land, were in future to be thrown upon the clergy, and were, therefore, pro tanto, a tax upon the clergy. Looking to the whole subject, it would, in his opinion, be most dangerous to depart from the Old rule by which the house had been hitherto guided. Lord ALTHORP said, that on a question of this nature, which came upon him also by surprise, he felt great unwillingness to state his own opinion. It did, however, appear to him that the rule which had been referred to always applied to cases where the tax was clearly laid on the subject for the public service generally.. (Hear, hear.) A bill had been passed something in the nature of, the present, by which incumbents were com pelled to pay larger sums to their curates. The money clauses of that bill were not referred to a committee of the whole house, and he never had heard any complaint made on that account. It-was most important, certainly, that they should not interfere with any regulation of Parliament having for its object the protection of the subject; but he did not think that the present was one of those cases which came within the rule. Sir R. PEEL never felt more perfectly than he did at the present moment the validity of the objection which had been urged by his right hon. friend. According to the policy of the house, the bill ought not to proceed to a second reading without those clauses being snbmitted to the preliminary ordeal of a committee of the whole house, by whom they would be affirmed, modified, or rejected. On the 29th of March, 1707, itwas resolved " That this house will not proCeed ou any petition, motion, or bill, for granting any money, or releasing or com pounding any sum of money owing to the Crown, but after ex amination by a committee of the whole house, and the same is declare dto be a standing order of the house." (Hear, hear.) In 1825 a case occurred on the petition of a Mr. Campbell, who prayed for compensation on account of losses sustained by riots at Glasgow. 1 his related to an individual, and yet the case was reported on by a committee of ways and means. (Hear, hear.) In 1831, a bill was brought in for regulating the ,aine laws ' and a, duty of £2 was imposed on %ranting licences. - Was that bill brought in with the clause in it proposing a tax of £2? No; the bill was brought in with only a reference to the clauses which imposed the duties. There was this note affixed to them, and printed in italics—" these clauses to be introduced in the committee." These were all instances of local taxes, to be ap plied to local objects. Now, what were the objects of the present bill? One of the objects was the building of churches throughout Ireland. Now, could there be any object more general than the building of churches throughout all that part of the empire? (Hear, hear.) He would assert that this tax had a reference generally to the people • and if that resolution of the House of Commons which he had read, and which de clared that no tax should be proceeded in but through the intervention of a committee of the whole house, were not con sidered a dead. letter, then there could not be a doubt raised, but that before they proceeded with this bill a committee of the whole house should come to a resolution as to the money clauses. (Hear.) Mr. STANLEY said, the right .hon. baronet had quoted a re solution of the 29th of March, 1707, providing that " The house would not proceed on any petition, motion, or bill, for granting any money, or releasing or compounding any sum of money owing to the Crown, but in a committee of the whole house." Now, he read that resolution, and the practice of the ,house, as arising from a constitutional jealousy of the power of the Crown. It had reference to money 'advanced by that, house to the Crown.' (Hear, hear.) He would call the atten :tion of the house to the bill for the regulation of the salaries of curates. By that bill certain reductions were made iu the salaries of incumbents, in order to enlarge the incomes of a portion of the clergy who were inadequately provided for. That bill was not submitted, in the way . proposed, to a committee of the whole house, nor did it originate in that house at all ; but in the house of Lords. . _ Sir R. PEEL.—The bill did not originate in the Lords. Mr. STANLEY.—It provided for the augmentation of small livings—the building of glebe-houses—the repair of churches— and, in short, every thing . almost that was contemplated by the present bill. Theie was absolutely in the bill to which he alluded a graduated scale of taxation,- for if the living pro duced so much, the curate was to be paid in proportion. There was nothing connected with this measure to call forth that con stitutional jealousy which was properly entertained when mo ney was to be granted to the Crown. Air. GouLnuaN was of opinion that great advantage would accrue by affording time for deliberation on a point which ap -peered to him, if the objection of his right hon. friend were well-founded, was one of very great importance. (Hear, hear.) If this were a tax on the people, it was important to prevent :the house from levying it without adopting those safeguards which were hitherto deemed indispensable. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the question was, whether this was a- bill for imposing a tax on the peeple,.or for granting a revenue to the Crown ? ' If it were either one or the other, then it would be necessary to submit it to a committee of the whole house; but if it were merely a measure for regulating the pro peaty of the church for the benefit of the church, then he con ceived that such a proceeding was not called for. In that case he did not think there would - be any violation of the orders of the house if they went on with the second reading. - Mr. Siinw contended, that to all intents and purposes, this was a tax. Looking to the 14th section, he saw it there pro vided "that these commissioners shall take, levy, and receive, from and after the commencement of this act for ever, a yearly tax, tete, or assessment" from the incumbent. If this were not the recognition of a tax he knew not what was. It had been stated that the Curates' Bill and this-bill were newly the same. The difference was obvious. This bill, they were told by the learned gentleman opposite, was for regulating church property for the benefit of the church; whereas it was not only tor regu lating church property, but it was also for removing parish cess, which the whole population of each parish was now liable to pay. (Hear.) Mr. O'CohiriELL said they had much business to do, and they, ought to put an end to this discussion. (" Hear," and a laugh.) It was most clear to him that this was a tax. (Hear, hear.) That was his opinion. In the preamble of the act this was called neither more nor less than an annual tax. He never felt him self abashed in performing a public duty, but if ever there was a case where he regretted to do his duty it was the present. He did not want to postpone this bill, but he wanted to know how this blunder had been committed. It was set forth in the bill that first fruits in Ireland should be repealed, and that there should be "the substitution of an annual tax in lieu thereof." This stared them in the face in the very first line; and when that was so, how could they go on with the second reading of this bill, without first submitting it to a committee of the whole house ? How did they happen to overlook such a circumstance as this ? What, he asked, was this but an annual tax ? Here was a certain portion of the property of a certain class of the King' subjects which was to be taken in all and every event. Now, if that was not a tax, he really did not know what a tax was. (Hear.) Mr. PRYME instanced several descriptions of bills connected with money which did not originate in a committee of the wh o l e house. A turnpike bill or a drainage bill was a tax bill, yet it was never known that such Measures originated in a committee of the whole house. , Lord Jotirr RUSSELL said that gentlemen wished them to set tle the question at once, because the word "tax" was found in the bill; but that circumstance would not decide the question, which was, whether the word bore the ordinary meaning of that term? The right hon. gentleman opposite had argued against the second reading, and founded his argument upon the au thority of Hatsell as well as his own ; and he (Lord J. Russell admitted that the right hon. gentleman was as well acquaint e d with the orders of the house as any individual that ever rose to speak on the subject. Hatsell, it appeared, was in favour of a committee of the whole house, even when a bill was introduced for local purposes. But he would ask, had such a principle as .that been acted on of late years or not? There was, for in stance, a,bill for the establishment of a police in the metropirlis, and in order to carry the plan into effect a charge of Bd. in the pound on :the poor-rates was enacted by Parliament. That was done without any intervention of a committee of the whole house. (Hear.) Sir R. INGLIs said that this bill most decidedly imposed a tax 'on the Irish clergy. He relied on that word, and he would force it into discussion. He saw clearly that it was a tax on part of the community; and he contended that no portion of the King's subjects should be deprived of the benefit of any of the forms of that house. Dr. LusnisioTox should rather be inclined to put up with any partial inconvenience than to break through the rules and orders which Parliament had long established. - Ile would state the case as he understood it, and he hoped the right hon. gen tleman in the chair would favour the house with his opinion, because lie believed the house relied on his knowledge of the subject, and not only on his knowledge of the orders and usages of the house, but on his well-known and often manifested im partiality. (Hear, hear.) An order on their journals directed that where taxes were to be granted to the Crown a committee of the whole house should be appointed to inquire into the sub ject. This was done with a twofold view,—for the protection of the people, and to avoid, if possible, any jealousy of the Crown. The hon. and learned gentleman concluded by appeal ing to the chair for its opinion on the subject. The SPEAKER said that having been called upon by the hon. and learned member to state to the house what were his views npon the point now before it, he begged to say that while he was ready to admit, with all those hon. members who had spoken upon the subject, that it was one beset with difficulties, it ap peared to him that those difficulties arose out of the meaning, intent, purport, object, and character of the bill, rather than out of the interpretation to be put upon the rules and forms of that house, with regard to which there could be little or no difference. lie took it that the question now before the house was, whether One of the objects of this bill was the imposition of a tax, or not; and in order to ascertain that point it was necessary that they should come to a clear understanding as to what the mean ing of a tax was. Now, as he took it, according to the standing orders of the house, any imposition upon the subjects of the Crown, either for public purposes generally, or for purposes entirely separate and distinct from the interests of those indivi duals upon whom the said imposition was to be levied, was to be considered as a tax. In considering this question there was a point which he thought had been overlooked' by the house, and which materially affected the subject matter at issue, and. that was, whether a certain surplus of money, which would arise out of the,operation of this bill, was not . to be applied to pur poses to which it had not hitherto been applied—to public pur poses, and whether a burden would'not be imposed by the bill to be paid by the clergy which hitherto had not usually been borne by them. That was a point which materially affected the question, as to whether this bill should or should not ema nate from a committee of the whole house. It would be' seen that he alluded to the part of the bill relating to the church cess, and that part of it he conceived ought to occupy a prominent position in the consideration of this question. As to his giving an opinion himself upon the question, whether the purposes for which the bill was intended came within the meaning of a tax or not, he was satisfied that the house would not expect him to give any such opinion, and he was quite sure that it would not be decent for him, if he had formed any opinion on the subject, to obtrude it on the house. He had merely felt it his duty to call the attention of the house to the question which was before it,—namely, whether the purposes for which this bill was in tended came within the meaning of a tax or not; that was to say, whether the object of it was to raise money . upon the sub jects of the Crown for general purposes, or to raise money upon a particular description of the subjects of the Crown, to be de voted to purposes with which the interests of those subjects were ,not connectod. (Hear.) Mr. Honig said that he certainly could not look upon the imposi tion proposed to be made by this bill in any other light than that of a new tax, like the tax upon pensions, or any other tax ; and he had therefore no hesitation in saying that such an imposition ought to ori ginate in a resolution of a committee of the whole house. • Lord ALTHORP said, that after the discussion which had taken place; he would, if the house agreed to it, be ready to postpone the Second readinof this bill to a future day. The question having been raised as to whether this bill did not impose a tax, and whether, therefore, it should not originate with a committee of the whole house, he should be extremely sorry that such an important constitutional question should be determined without the fullest and most deliberate consi deration, and, whatever might be his own opinion on the subject, after so much doubt had been thrown upon it, he should be sorry to call upon the house to come to a decision upon the point at once. He was therefore ready to defer the order of the day for the second read ing of this bill until some day next week, in order that the house •might in, the meanwhile have time to consider the question that had been now started. The order of the day having been read, Lord ALTIIORI. moved, that the order be discharged, and the second reading of the bill fixed for Monday next. The second reading of the bill was then fixed for Monday next. DISTRESS OF TIIE INDUSTRIOUS CLASSES. Mr. T. ATTWOOD hoped that the noble lord would have no objec tion to his (Mr. Attwood) proceeding with his motion :. which stood for this evening, for the appointment of a select committee " to in quire into the causes of the general distress existing amongst the in uustrioui elasses of the united kingdom, and into the most effectual means of its relief ?" Lord ALTHORP observed, that as a great many hon. members had left the house under the impression that that motion would not :be brought on that evening, he would put it to the hon. member whe ther it would be fair to bring it forward in their absence Mr. A TTWOOD, after remarking that it was a Motion connected with a most itnportant subject, postponed it till that day week. RUN FOR GOLD IN IRELAND, Mr. PEASE gave notice, that to-morrow evening. in the committee upon the Irish. Disturbances Bill, he would move that it be an instruc tion to the committee to authorize the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, by proclamation, to make Bank of Ireland notes a legal tender in Ireland. (Hear.) SELECT COMMITTEE TO SEARCH FOR PRECEDENTS. Lord ALTIMity moved that a select committee be appointed to search for precedents, and to report its opinion to the house whether a bill to alter and amend the laws relating, to the temporalities of the church in Ireland should, according to the rules and order of the house, originate in a committee of &e whole house. Which, after some observations from Mr. O'Connell, Mr. Stanley, Mr. Baring, and Mr. Harvey, was agreed to, and the committee appointed accordingly, Mr. BROCKLEUUSLST presented a petition from Macclesfield, in fa vour of inquiry into the state of corporations.—Referred to the com mittee on corporations. Mr. HUME presented a petition against the Irish Disturbances Bill from a large public meeting of inhabitants of Edinburgh ; and stated that the petitioners were so dissatisfied with the conduct of their re presentatives in relation to this subject that they determined not to intrust the petition to their care. The hon. member presented a si milar petition from certain inhabitants of Spitalfields, and accompa nied it with a like statement as to the want of confidence of a portion c)f the constituency of the Tower Hamlets in the members fur that borough. He also presented a like petition from the Political Union of.Maidstone, and apetition from the parish of Christchurch for vote by ballot and reduction of taxation. Mr. CLAY said it would have been more kind and courteous towards A young Member if Mr, Hume had given him some previous notice of his • intention to make such a statement ;. had the hon. member done so, he would have been prepared to inquire how far he had lost the confidence of his constituents, and to deferql his conduct, if necessary. Ile had expressed a Strong objection to the bill, though, from his con fidence in ministers, he did not oppose its introduction. (Hear.) Ile intended to oppose some of the clauses in committee. He felt con vinced that his conduct had afforded satisfaction to his constituents, kith the exception of the individuals who had signed the petition. (hear.) • VIOLATION OP THE SABBATH. Petitions praying for the better observance were presented.by Lord Milton, from two parishes in Northamptonshire ; Sir R. IL Inglis. from Clapham, Battersea, and other places ; and Mr. K. Stuart, from lladdington. Other petitions were presented for the repeal of the Assessed Taxes, the Abolition of Negro Slavery, and a variety of other subjects.—The house adjourned at A past 12 o'clock. FRIDAY. The Speaker took the chair this day soon after 12 o'clock. Mr. HUME, in moving the second reading of Sir John Soane's Museum Bill, took that opportunity of saying that the measure afforded an example which he was sure the house would.view with satisfaction, and, he hoped, wouldmark with its approbation. (Hear, hear.) The object of th e bill was to preserve for the public use, and for the advancement of ii - ence, all the valuable library and antiquarian and other col lections which had been made by Sir J. Soane at considerable expense, and at a continued labour of upwards of 30 years; and the bill went to invest in trustees, for the public use and bene fit, the whole of this interesting and valuable collection and library, and Sir John Soane applied the interest of i:30,000, per cent. consols, to maintain the collection, besides £2OO per annum for the rent of an adjoining house to his own to add to the convenience of the public, thus proposing to maintain the institution in perfection for ever. (H ea r.) - He begged to be permitted to mention one instance of the exertions and disin terestedness of Sir John Soane. That gentle Man had (when neither the government nor any other private individual -could be found to take it up) prevented Belzoni's sarcophagus front leaving the country, and had himself paid £2OOO to preserve it for the British public. (Hear.) It now fornied part of the col lection to which the bill now before the house referred—a col lection comprising also works of art and manuscripts, one of which cost no less a sum than £5OO. (Hear.) The list which was now in preparation would satisfy the house of the inc4l culable advantage the gift would be to the public and to the interests of science; and he hoped the house would afford every facility to the passing of the bill. (Hear.) Sir R. INGLIS said that the instances were so rare of persons capable of estimating works of art being willing to confer a great public advantage, that he rejoiced to see the present bill. the gift to the public was such that he could not allow the bill to pass unnoticed . . No man in the country :lad made so great a sacrifice, both of fortune and labour, as Sir John Soane, in forming the collection now so munificently and disinterestedly bestowed upon the public. He thought it would but be just that a formal notice rhooid be taken and made of these munificent donations. But a very short time ago au individual had be queathed a collection worth I.:60,000 to the British Museum, and yet scarcely a word had been said about it. Othergifts had been bestowed on the National Gallery, of which no mention had been made. He therefore hoped the directors of the National Gallery would be instructed to furnish the }Muse annual returns of the contributions that were made, in .order that the public might know by whom they were benefited. (Hear.) Mr. J. E. DEN ISON, on movin g the third reading of the Brox • tow (Nottingham) Compentationßill, observed that it had bean his intention to have called the attention of the government and the house to the state of law with reference to the liability of counties to make compensation for damages done' by rioters, but as none of Ilis Majesty's ministers were present, he would defer doing so. until another opportunity.—Read a third,tirne and passed. 11 - mu COERCIVE BILL Petitions against this measure were presented by Mr. Chap man, from the parishes of Street, Kill, Kiiib rea d, an d Mual farnham, in the county of Westmeath ; Mr. Finn, from the parish of Rosivane, county iiiikengy; Major Beauelerc, from the in habitants of St. Mary Newinfton ; the parishioners of Wands worth and Clapham, and the political unions of Gravesend, Horsham, and Milton; Mr. Lynch, from eight places in-the county of Donegal; Mr. J. Talbot, from New Ross; Mr, Ser. geant Perrin, front Monaghan, Kilmore, Drunisna, and Gra uard; Mr. Walker, from the parish of Druinconagh, county of Wexford; Mr. Maclachlan, from Galway, and six other peti tions from various trading bodies of the same place ; Mr. Guest, from Merthyr Tydvil and two parishes in the county of Mona ghan; Mr. I'. Gladstone, from the electors and inhabitants of Portarlington; Sir R. Keane, front Killeagh, Corbally, and Tramore, county of Waterford; Mr. Marshall, from the oliera tires of the borough of Leeds; Mr, \Varre, from the inhabitants of Hastings; Mr. Gaskell, from the working claiSes of Wake field, Dobcross, and Saddleworth ; Mr, Kinloch, from the p unions of Frome, Abbotshall, and Edinburgh, and trout the borough of Irvine and the parishes of Alloa and Killicoul. hie; Mr. Hull, from the inhabitants of Kingston upon Hull ; 'Mr. C. Fitzsimmon, from seven places in the county of Uuhlin; Mr. White, from two parishes in the county of Leitrim; Col. Williams, from the inhabitants of Ashton-under-Lyne. This petition stated that unless the tithe laws were repewei, the , Irish heirarchy abolished, and poor laws introduced into Ireland, the people would, from their distresses, •he driven to anarchy and revolution, and praying the house to repeal the ministerial mea, sures of coercion, to reduce the duties on-Malt, hops, soap, and sugar, to abolish all taxes on knowledge, houses, and windows, and to arrange for the better accommodation of members in the house; Mr. J. Fielden, from Coh; Lancashire; Mr. F. O'Con nor, from several places in the counties of Cork and Carlow. Mr. O'CoNzvEtt presented petitions from Bury, Rochdale, and Preston, Lancashire; from the Political Union of Kidder minster, signed by . ti,329 individuals; from Keighley, Yorkshire, and the city of Chichester; also a petition to the same effect, signed in one day by upwards of 20,(XX.) inhabitants of the city of Dublin, including the names of men of the first wealth, ani,t others who had hitherto been attached by ties of hope to the Anglesey and Stanley . government. The hon. and learned gen tleman presented similar petitions from Winghana, Kent; front the journeymen butchers of Dublin, from an inhabitant of Wor cester, named Oswald Bradley, from the town of Wexford, front the Trades' Political Union of Dub:in, from the members of the Volunteer Association of Ireland; from a parish in Meath, and six petitions from parishes in the city of Dublin. Also petitions with a similar prayer from Ballinacrue, county of Cavan ; front the master butchers of Dublin, from- Ballybay, county of Mo. naghan; from Athenry, county Meath ; and from two parishes in the county of Wexford. The hou. and learned member abito presented a petition from the inhabitants of the city of London derry, agreed to at a public meeting convened by the mayor, to the same effect, most numerously and respectably signed; also a petition against the bill from the youths of Dublin, stating that they would rather die in their youth than live to be slaves; also petitions from the workmen of the Carron Iron-works, from, the youths of Galway, from Sir Charles Wolseley, from the commercial clerks of the city of Dublin, from the town of Dun dalk, the manor of Grangegorman, and from three other pa rishes in the city of Dublin. The hon. member presented a SO. cond petition from the National Trades' Political Union of Dub lin, against the measure of coercion, and praying the house to address his Majesty for the removal of the right lion, secretary for Ireland from that office; and a petition, with the same prover, from the carpenters of Dublin. Also petitions from the parishes of St. Michell and St. John, Dublin, for the rejection of the bill, and the repeal of the legislative union; from Kilmaedaugh. and Newport, county of Mayo ; from Rathangan, Kildare; from the town of Naas, from the Political Union of liathangan, from the Independent Political Club of the city of Ltmdonderrv, and from the town and liberties of Celan, in the county of Kil kenny; all to the same effect. Similar petitions were presented by Mr. Fitzgerald, Mr Christmas, Mr. Buckingham, Mr. °Terrell, Mr. Hawkins, Mr. Martin, Mr. H. Grattan, Mr. J. O'Connell, Mr, Lehi]; Mr. H. Bulwer, Mr. Aglionby, Mr. C. O'Connell, Mr. S. Bar ry, Mr: Gobbett,' Mi. T. Attwood, O'Connor Don, Mr. M, Philips, Mr. Vernon, and 'Mr. Grote, the whole of which were ordered to lie on the table, and at three o'clock the Speaker ad journed the house to five o'clock. The house resumed at 5 o'clock. The Earl of DARLJ . N.GTON wished to know when the Mutiny Bill would be brought foiward. - His reason for - asking was, that he meant. to take advantage .of the occasion, as the most fitting and convenient for offering some remarks on a •royal warrant, bearing the signature of the Secretary at War, in se. lotion to soldiers' pensions,. which had been lately issued, and which, he conceived, contained enactments very prejudicial to the soldiers' iuterests. Sir J. Ilonnousn hoped to be able to bring forward the Mu tiny Bill before the hmydays. . The warrant to which the noble lord had alluded was wholly prospective in its operation, anti had not, as he should be able-to show at the proper time, been issued without the =Wrest consideration and the /*lest aPpv bation of the military authorities. Mr. BEISNAL, as chairman of the Hertford,l3orough Election Committee, appeared at the bar with a message requesting that the house would send a message to the House of Lords request: ing the attendance of the Marquis of Salisbury, to give evidence before that committee, and to produce ,copies of the leases or indentures under which certain (named) ejectors in that bo rough held tenements under his lordship. - Mr. Hymn wished to know whether the proceedings of the committee would be at a stand-Still till the message bad been. complied with? . if so, the hou.se was bound to act immediately upon it. Mr. BEnNat had received the message so very lately, in fact, not till after 4 o'clock, when the day's proceedings of 'the cum mitte.e had terminated, that he could not take it upon himself to give the hon. member's question a distinct answer,: It was ultimately agreed to, that the message should be ti kien into consideration on Monday next. A conversation; from which no decision resulted, took ii:ve On the Fropfiety Of devoting different days or hours for .thv (Continued to page 269.)