The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-05-10 00:00:00

~I :1; ° : ,1 9 . I di d ilot --"------7---- ` ...11 -- - 114111116idial ' i - , Ilet t t a "not it, f„ gave its ,teenotthat change helepeated that the church that . to k; ° f ) 1 ert • • but supposing I : injus ee, was itlk'P.- to 3 ' be no limit -to the - die ` cases ? there the re he contended no-analogy ' e ases in the trine " ''' c VIII. and the ►present thange lie etnne of Henry were to interfere with . A•onerty in would ask, if they were , _._, to .su e l the hands of churchmen, what tri!yee the otinot)erty in the hands of laytnen ? If the 3,. 1 .... of the Lille) "w %vas the ot render bc secure ? 'I he print : i . was one wl • . l all kinds of prokm ty . Ili, 0 ., , , in i would , sa),., that liocrstood the right hon. Secretary (lAr : S t ta c t ,e i e!,,,,. i 1 y o. without looking to the propriety, or justice , subj eet I,s ► measure, the clamour which had been rats d f 1, 1), v was reason sufficient for diminishing the number o tr, e i t c r olv he never emild bring himself to think that Fla i Ll 'i f or 4 6 4 . 1 this 'country or in Ireland, formed a sufficient with tQ l f ee ' i t.'g to any measure which was not in ac . ...c . o t r o d i; t ainl s • cei,Higs of their consciences and the comic 1 . het v - 0 south out - of doors—no op t_ ever eial oeut expressed , h Id induce the lord to L._..1, nourously advanced —s . ou own -, aTt". `, ) ,r!! E, forwa.rd any meatttre which his w consci d ('''lleliwotime,"berate Conideration could not Template. il le th e 't` le h oped the deci-ion c'tf the house would be n t . ' 4l• ther the of the question until that day ii i lt ' C r , tal s - e obj eet r felt it to be his duty to support this bill. What as his b of le • s ee • ,e ineasu 7 WI • the consolidation, and n oel • tri had re • 1 ), ,:• e say•that'd stated, the suppression of iiihopries. c - l lt ePe s e e . a bill fur suppression" was a fallacious ule tnea.";,,s'..tt_ilation of this measure. What . was the tntao toptshwe ext"e'netrevclrt t% wf ti n . i not to suppress ':eideZlld hereafter be".al.thie..d a uti e es of e bi c s •e h r o L r i i n c lium u ber bl It < was an extension 'bested e c i ts es; and in all ' em i t% churches . in every country Lc the heete!Alsolidation of dioceses , - They would find .. '• I ,if they looked to the best and purest times of , t '1 Maly • the w,r there were examples where two, three, or 41 1 sa iee t 7 . ,onsotidated • into one. In Spain and G_ - r ie et tt ,htee. "Inbrehad been done • and it had also been the laid " I t I. i a '"' 'Va. the first attempt to effect such ~4,Pei'lte-11'• ( I/ 6 ea n r, ° he ) Considerable stress had i,) ••• layie'e ideatity of the church of Ireiand and bug i)-e'l, tWel.' e ' ll , s t et' view the Catholics, in the ratio o.cthe ; et leu ice - u t shops was an ample proportion. . This s 'ng le 6 I, treat' le ish e .• lug the question only as a questio j u ru o m i ' 4 " 2 ee, 9lt ,c-'‘ The canon cnisceatt motor() porutt 40 4, P"coliorunt adapted the number of bishops to '.:, etel)3,‘".t( it. was ' said it would afford a tliumph to o ale 1 1 ,, }old continue to have the same number of ' 4 ' ll Pi• Ped be was not indifferent to the interests of !le y,/ leotestaht tmrch, or that he did not. think lightly • l i t , t they w ee t . illg the Catholics in Ireland; but his notion 74 ii ' e b i tt fti t e liy e . t 1 1 0 10 t !" be 'Oct non nonzero sed ponders,. not by i 2e a l , devotion, and assiduity with whicu 'eel, eess"ctious w e re discharged (Hear.) ‘Vith regard leiPle he a little surprised' that those who took up e ' l !tehe tillt church property was not to be seculariz . e . d . 41: t i j i ll e ll 'ilqe t 'a h t zt pi.,. era.s the property of the church. It was . Prupe ee , li there was any case in illich . the . exer ,• tor el • tacry right of the church was injurious to the 'e to p hick that was given it was the duty of the Te" t ti i t e ' t • er j i : o ,,great object, and to consult the benefit it h e etie st i;; . i 'ile great object was injured rather than , e h eiie ,. e ought to be so disposed of that the re re:tioll ecial to tlie trust. Thus, in the case of tithes,. th e etitleifoth,li in Ireland marred the . great object of ..' t ace. , e, utl itY, the legislature had interfered tar tC!t!et) the amount of the church cess, 4 , 6 0 ,.0" 0 ) can't lv as'ti(il:.certainty of it, and the invidious e ' ireu_m u: oei e l lo vee e ,'Posed of by Protestants, and that the ~:',4 8 tl i -, t I n its divoal, altogether rendered chug lin •„„ A s- ,:eit. L i i i vould be ft ' ir the advantage of the ch t."'"e •s hall. --e did not call this an alienation; it was no R p ti t : ) e! ,i l vl.e goed'floie. Je.liuquishment of it was a sort of capital te i4. e. ess (( leo einion of the peopx, which mado a retutu ry tit . It w. hear.) Another question related tu ts b o i- f t eie t 'ltt e , Rav e e 4 areuee,l that inasmuch as certain ac .. ..„4 1,, ,,, gh i ..i ein , ti, whole rights of property over uniin -044.14. 11,,, mpg;' tLircrablO lend, the leeisiature could not inter 'be ''ktei r ight , . T i • ! -r' er a titki , W (4l -, '• this was founded upon mere_ special 1•4 1 . e i , th at te k , -hot bear the tostof argument. It could 44.-111;ePteheeteelegislature took from the church what the kt i , - '.ll' `4e ten !'f it was theliroierty of any one, it was the le .:I,4izteev.'intry, not of the - church, though the right ej, __ ii,N„ whiej '.ke• ibis litid 'been always admitted iii i, ._l t l I,olNl;.ilitii ~..teiVolved the estion of leases. The ii r h . e i 'itite4lecai.`4Sed -shine 'further observations, but he was so r ti; i li. p t t . fle s li s f . i) ti ‘ t . e gallery, that we are abie to give but a „ 0) 4 h iii i te oki‘ i tech , . , ' I thi e u i l Whee' l et i at, there were some objects contemplated n:141114 ee-ee",h, I approved. there were some, his °bier ' sa . ,Ples 4 t t ; I t il •11", , tic4 . l4l...ttQ'd, CiPO- 1 )•'e of I the k ' l4 a 114 de« . e te WGN SQule others connected wit 1 . beilleere moved in " ,t : 11 • 41- e - See' e al ,. 18 of the bill iul the whole extent of which , e " 1 4 hr' t sti o , '4, Tike e rs e 'eht hon gentleman had stated the e ' ll 4 ! 't'll• `V - eiett '•• •' !. h r there should ,be a re- I 4 01,, ted ti e h of e .e>, ' I.4S !* 3 / "g t - C ••.' • denied this. i er e a le p r I. e.ana or not. He mane.) fe ul h h or th,ty riety of reform with a view to stability ; t ,41 .„,e bie,, ge le . - Parts of tile bid which wept to. the redrese '4l4ll)",oiete'ioei proved of that pail of tho bill which reeuned i e se 101,J,IlikOtieS of the clergy should be personalty and 'tel. ti e l 'aee, i 'l-1 -led (hear) ; ai.id he approved of that part /sl.tittfilltilde,44itst ,eilliep,trtieular, for the abolitio . o of the church i' MI t 4 Ilav e 4 ,, to forego the claims which the church of ~4 4 0411,4 . thu rth Lo that Particular impost, because . he was era ll tdi lll 4 it, h w euld be Willing to make the sacrifice, and,. 11 k iai1)0e1)14 4 _,e believed they would remove a source of 14, tlitlitt.en(le,,nu.litigation, whilst the pecuniary amount of i 4 l i tl eo : l tto e i t lf t th e V h i ) t of little moment to the church. At the he ) 01.1 4 ,e fte ei l,' e ht were removed, it %yas . nec . essar lee ste eh 4. 4 11rd e 4 to . r the objects t which it 'was applied.._ s k lib kYl.,'"`ttr for 4,l,4ight fall on the landlords of Ireland, he 'it. ?, (le e eh e i. "le church itself that it should undertake klieg Pe e l i tt ,e s e es tor church repairs, and the expenses at- eilid e ,ss te .l h u , lee , OUt of the revenues. of the church. lie', j,' tia ,` gavjlea frOirx tileexperience he had had of the ! il,e4')lltei`e,e,eee'etietrielit to de'pie.txrt from ll their plans, that they! ik.ll)_ll(titillei,?iltlitarte'oritYilhhenarguments whieh mightmight be urged \0 &, 0 m, 5 1 1e hilt hi the committàe. If urgedt heftcommittee. the house 1'%,,,'e le . ii-y e " a llot to 1 ~,t , tii, { ,fir, and no ought to go into committee,. he clergyman a . clear stipe . ..iid . . o the IA 4 kr, iltb,t did not despair of consent-m e . of less i lik e ei/e, 4 uitt e e i .! of the proposition. The policy alio J ll -: ,i 0 r) l)tk: a „`,..(qtle, b l icotne tax had been declared; but that was "IQ •e tt - . 4d uitt e e il l. The noble lord had stated his objec tee,thie , " t i t. the ,s 4 Property tax in England, and he could not eaNel"' that /4 1 , 1 e ttouse of Commons would decide that 1 4 , 4; 4 It weeer,e should be made from the incomes of 'lir:ells 1 " i lld b e eeeece better, that where £8le) was to be • e - eo 4ae lline r ,, - T at that sung, rather than introduce the ;tt ... * l th', a geed i f, `hietg E.10(vo, and deductiug He 1 ,,, 4 i' d er th e lord tax on income of any kind, and he sie t '• wee lee ) ~..I.,tuld contrive some moue by which this - al, ~. th re ,a.noleh was not a principle of it, might be A e .cleall'ele s i v t t rei to e•hat had bee said about the lir . st• Nt th 3. ' V iler( 'x (-)11 the eleru'v the clergy and the laity i it. 1. Ct, ested in toe lire"' ' th e }sot` r )ii ::, tren, than of •- elioion and to reat bodyint"ance placeit ex . - t wi e ai ui .lll,, ( ~e , .... .. of the laity, to . i 'tle t h l % l'aee ovaiel, was not e quitable. "fire main pint iti..4.1 %I I 4 . . liumber of I; ' ' es te : , .'''' to ' 'riend th e ))i,Qt bill . kith,..,e(otion,. think e . Isintioprws. . . _, 41 ' 1 (1)4, 8 4 ~. Inerfther for Oxford, who objected 41. 114, oi l this k ir it. veei) ha ie. i b t . beyond .t h t i l s ie o t i o e w e e it r on e s f .( 1 anuone, _ ti,ll, l it t,i,o4 f b u i r Behe.. 07e. otbuend.,‘)aard he did so, because he did not per , , lie 1 sere o liu e , ~,..s"election.. ( Hear.) Ilse . questien , 0 , f ,.. ~ t . I ) ef th e ls e noe.. e . ill his (Sir It. Peers) . opinion one . - il l li• t e Pr act cif iiiiT ) L ' in ce? arid involved in it perhaps a %lu- NZte iall ee ePos e to ti u• Ilut what did the bill introaue, to, Ilitif:s. Now, ic ) ? To strike off ten frothe the niunuer ot litir 4 1 4' 4 Itleasi. h e ? re put it to lion gentlemen, ought 'tiessn. l oos e . l e to h e e. ee ~_ . attur,i 4ecUrate 1 f ntertained by the house without Neowi 4 ued ? 1 , i? ormation on the subject than . was i .11 %7 11 ., e l the extent ''.° of tfel Ininseif justified iu asking for re -41,!. t' el th e 1;0 eell. diocesi which it was: proposed , re -1,!. dioeeber Of beneticeS under the control et t .tr e th,o:l <tile bill If kie understood right, the effect of et t 'll p ie of the lags . w ould be to leave without a resident 110 g !i, t t litt e d i eted ed , eSt emnities in the south o - f . Ireland.- 5 . t 0 th ( "9 dep reeut ' e , ki ll • It 1 0 die ersi e the principle of the bill as . fer I tS I 1 th q ~, . 4(1 bee, assertedou of ecclesiastical property to civil ' t i " t t . th et i f the prel,le..e-., in justification of this appeo ' ,h,"q4 41 aillt l a l . ' P r ove,1; ,"Y ot the church were improvcd, the ,},,,, 4 , si .. ieed that %et no hunger belonged to the church. l4"%tts'ged as ti the rio hts ' ofchurch property ought to , to lie r 10,0 of ) se,. . . e 0 ,e.. ' en"ar. ( C a n e . utit b_ „ I le% ate property, and in this p . .. ~ ,k(i. etovt,nnee, Y toe declared omi of Lord Plunkett, ' te i g i e le g e s Tent te 6 o VA the present Lerd Chancellor. Then, iilit t „ 'ttare to ) 14 .ce iu the value of private propel ty, itia' his of St ale pe r „ -le p in apply the amount of that fin l'Attltllt• 'e ci ! tlr e'l l'isuse' ?aid - e Ile denied that hINIR't to tli 'lte ill 9 Perte had (Hear, hear.) e.tablihecl by aet of 4 1 , , t4 e i g . ,ht iii 't , 111 ehtlrelt vo L i: - rt ' ' Was . he con - tended, ' e eie l , i ''e aile; e'etea,--t‘:rPorate Prep.eetey ; ) and . i'r they violated Q. it -e t he e° ,. r l'cret e Ye the saine act, wea.ken the feundations. ..,,..`e t , \ ,e fe,ti!-',Peeinvia-to.utee rested. He would not give his zi ' 41 . ) 114 L''. l led wit , (-,4 recluction of ten bishops until the ere, tele, e Nei: I.,orther iao-mafion lie trusted tire I. t' " . 4 l iii il !'v. - 4 ° ltt a tt e l li i( e l ',I oral` -v ith th e ' eau - tion . and d . iseri.na -4 til e r, t ,,, -U at oil rash step wouid te taken '"ry applause, but' that all their N at Ile • d soi to 'd not rls e 3p r ° be ta v 4 t t f t e bee o ti hot;ttice of 0( 0 .0'4 Pro th e l)l vt ,dr tho P ( . ° l , Be d elvl e fel s c V 40 to r P r' e c'lcroafeort, sueh de )1, 6i the oil 11011• h . 12,keurtile 1,111 Y) t A e. 0 e s ' e nt 114 ti D a f oth Q. !ssit v 01 1 ` 1 ;o 04 ti.: is hup s4l) i;et • cicisl`, (44, eitl"°‘ be • o wtl to.f u A itt t ~e for ittft!' e '' t l ttit th e 'ctl Y ' h( vey a i al f 4 1 `. 4t e e 16 41 t o e ), ra e °, l fo! rd to a s 40 tE ,e1 13 " 4 e tit:; w ( 1 • A P e o, r, tt ', th ` - "ta ati. 4 „ ti c E fi t , - the t ,' l ,o t ""ro 4, e re th Per tit 0( 0 't o me :Ok i , lceu 4er eut upsh .94 effectidu' est e :4 be • 41 • 11.( ;i !1 :` th • e i co lg bil l , • lt0; ) i 4 f ► t- -a eif e a - aidli d„ tall hat 11 , 01) c t ea i g , tri o 4 3'4 triti tw P btes s b ? f s , C dtd' 11,at io his , 4tho it i ., so , 4 0 - 04 t , d i tC 4 gli s i • f r o- e 1) 1 tip tity , r o ld 0 4 4 , 11e , it they old • b tu - • f 4 -k ai f ` 4 , i td di t e4 tik ! l ' 4 4 ; es u s C, (,4 6.1 _(;, 11 1 e • dl • (4a1.`",,'',1!t41(1 r t° vtl4,• A kg., the 1, 1) I,e• l tl r( ft ye th e t ore ir ° ,lO P . M h' e ted uu .alt tiNhi h tb kefi t)11 -e 4,e 031 111,1 e th e tiL rch ' be t' 7 ' Ito' Pe -e , .411 a I ce. ;ett"lt o ol `'' h, t t !ar, oft ' 9 l 1) , , i4t:', 1 hod I t o t od . h 0 Y iee ! ‘ ;' L't ti 4 .1 48 • t no iog,' • vo l4t ioa q. tb e `ll ,e / 4 R '44 ia tit al ra fa Jir• ) t roe Mr 5 0 11 1 l! ' e ve;j e 'tit'' iva g te• tent t he d e, !ekiiith shoo it ejTitf, I lr h t 4 g , it tl ° 'e 0 0 or, „tlikh V rc o ok t if 4 • e ktt4 h te r l4 417 , Qt • ;0 dr l 'ot i h th4 O f se • 0 4, R 51 511," ill b e i t il f / " il e cOie• 1 Porte o t ` ` o o .o l tl alo k ' tt ° lrl oo' r of e 0 • • lon. ,„ • Pa iE it p oor , sTAN DA RD. efforts would be directed to increase the security of the church establishment of Ireland. To secure that great end, to main . taitrthe - church-of Ireland in its inherent purity, it was_neces sary to make provision for the decent and reectable main tenance of the clergy. On this ground he rested his opposition to the measure-s-that if the principle of applying the additional value of iinproiled church property to state purposes were ad mitted, then the right to every kind of property might - in like manner be invaded. '(huir, hear.) 'Lord ALTIIORP thought that the right hon. baronet 'had not made sufficiently clear the similarity between church and cor porate property. lie was ready to admit the danger of inter fering with the established right of property, but he was glad to find that upon'the principle of the measure he and the right hon. baronet were likely to agree, and their differences would only regard the scales adopted in the bill, and the other minor details of it. The right lion. gentleman objected to the gras duated tax proposed to be impo s ed by the bill upon the incomes of the Irish clergy, and in support of his argument be had cited what he (Lord Althorp) had said against a graduated property tax.. But the tax proposed by this measure was one essentially different from the principle of a property tax, and therefore the objections that applied to . the one did not apply to the other. The right hon. - baronet 141 stated that if the reduction in the number of the Irish bishoprics now proposed should be carried into effect, when the usual number. of Irish bishops were called away to attend then:parliamentary duties, there would not be left behind a sufficient number to discharge those duties, which appertained to their office. The right hon. baronet mast see that such an argument would equally well apply to this country, - for all the bishops in England were liable - to be summoned to attend their ditties in Parliament. (Hear.) That argument, therefore, of the right hon. baronet, came under that class of arguments which by proving too much proved nothing. Ile quite agreed with hon. gentlemen that every encouragement Wiould be afforded to the expansive power of the Protestant re ligion in Ireland, but he much doubted whether that expansion was likely to be promoted by the retention of obvious abuses in the church establishment there such, for instance, as that of a much larger number of bishops than the church of Ireland at all required. (Hear.) It was not necessary for him. to combat the position - gravely laid down by the hon. member for the Uni versity of Oxford, that a reduction in the mimber of bishops was' a matter not to be heard or entertained for a moment. Look ing at all the circumstances of the case, he (Lord Althorp) thought that the proposed number would be amply sufficient for that purpose. It would be seen from a comparisen Of the Churches of Eng.and and Ireland that the proportion of bishops contended for by the right lion. baronet for Ireland would be more than was desirable or necessary here. (Hear, hear.) The amount of the revenues - of the bishops and 'superior orders of the Clergy of Ireland was about the same as that in England,— namely, £130,000 a year, while, on the contrary:the proportion of the revenues of the parochial clergy in Ireland, to that of the parochial clergy in England, was £ti3o,WO to f.:3,000,(XX) a year. (Hear.) If time recommendation of the right hon. baronet on that head should be adopted, it woutd'excite dissatisfaction and discontent in Ireland. Ile would therefore adhere to the re duction proposed by the bill . in the number of bishoprics in Ireland. Loan S.-vxmix was anxious in•a few words to explain the reasons of his voting for the second reading of this bill. Agree ing, as he did, - so Much in what had -fallen from the right hon. baronet (Sir it. Peel), he must yet differ from hint' in giving his vote ou and :lie ii 7 aS therefore anxious to state why he did so. There was no. material part of the measure from which he differed, except that which went to appropriate a future imaginary surplus to such purposes as Par lament might deem fit.—(llear.) The noble lord himself ad mitted that that-portion of the bill wer,t to attack the principle Of church propertY, and was it for an imaginary surplus that they should raise that qUestion now Unless one word--namely, " I:celesiastical," should be introduced in the committee before the word "purposes" iii that clause of the bill, he should feel it his duty hereafter to vote against the measure. - Ile felt that it was necessary to effect a great retinas in the•church establish ment of Ireland, and it was for that reason that he would vote for the second reading of the bill; but if the alteration which he suggested should not be made by the committee, he would 'vote against the third reading of it. lie wished it to be under- . stnottlimterery Trerson - who Toted._ for the :sec-anti-:math:ore this bill was not to be, charged with recommending an invasion of the property of the Church. The gallery was cleared, after which The house divided on Mr. Shaw's amendment. The num bers were:— Aves . 78 N - oes . . 317 Majority . 2:39 The - bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be com mitted on Monday. GI. AS4 OW LOTTERY. Upon the question of the reading of au order of the day, Sir It. PEEL reminded the house of the hill lately passed under which the Glasgow lottery was drawn, and suggested the propriety of appointing a committee to examine all bills before the house, in order that no similar improp r i e ty mi g ht occur . Mr. S."lncE.: said it was quite impossible that any person could know that the bill in question authorized the drawing of a lottery. The law agent: himself who was..concerned•for the bill was not acquainted with its object. An hon..Memb , .n. said he - believed that if the bill were not repealed another lottery could be drawn under it. • ' Sir It. PEEL said that if the fact were as represented by the hon, member, it would be advisable to repeal the bill. Some further conversation, then ensued, in the course of which several members approved of the suggestion for the -ap pointment of a committee to examine bills, and the subject was then abandoned. STAMP DUTIES ACTS. The house went into a committee on the stamp duties acts, and on the motion of Lord ALT II HOP a fixed duty of Is. 6d. was substituted for the g raduated scale of advertisement 'duties.— The house resumed.—ltesolution to be reported this day. POLITICAL UNIONS. Mr. FINCUI withdrew• his. motion for the suppression of politi cal unions on account of the lateness of the hour; at the same time expressing his intention to bring the question on on the 27th of June. ....COMMITTEES ON AGRICULTURE AND MANUFACTURES. Mr. ATTWOOD expressed his objections to the constitution of the select committee on agriculture, on the ground that the members had been nominated by Lord Althorp to suit his particular views on the subject. 'With a view to have the agricultural interest more fairly represented in the committee, he moved that the - following names be added to the list :—Si r Charles Burrell, Mr. Hall - Dare, Colonel Terceval, and Sir Henry Willoughby. On - the question that Sir Charles 'Burrell be added to the committee, Lord ALTHORP said that personally he should have no objec tion to SirC. Burrell being placed on the committee. However, .the house havino: had its option in the nothination of the com mittee, he thought unless it should appear that the committee had been unfairly appointed (which he believed the hon. mem ber for WhiteWaven would scarcely assert), it would be ex tremely inconvenient to add to the lonelier (38) already fixed on. h the hon. member were allowed to increase the number, other gentlemen would claim a like privilege, and the committee woulit'become too numerous to produce any good effect; on that ground he must vote against the resolution. Motion negatived without a division. Adjourned at half-past 2 o'clock. • - • TUESDAY. • •The Speaker entered the house shortly before 4 o'clock, but in consequence of the ballots. for select committees to try the merits of the petitions complaining of undue re•,urns for the bo roughs of Coleraine and Warwick, the. gallery was not opened until a quarter to 5 o'clock. Several private bills were severally advanced a stage. Mr. Roe appeared at the bar with the reduced-list of the Cole raine election committee, which, on . being read by the clerk, was found to contain the name of Mr. Pease. The hon. gentle- Man - and the others fOrming the committee having presented themselves at the table. The SPEAKER said that he was sure that be.was doing no more than his duty in calling the attention of the house to the situation in which it was now for the first time placed. The reduced list of 11'members to form the committee had been re turned, and were now required to be sworn at the table under a particular oath prescribed - by the act. One hon. member who bad been so returned the house had already decided to be en titled to discharge his duties as a member of that house on making his solemn affirmation at the table, instead of taking and subscribing the usual oaths. The question, however, fur the house to consider was, whether tivt decision necessarily comprehended the duties to be performed by the 'hon. member in select committees appointed under a special act of parlia ment, and whether an affirmation was, according to that act for regulating the trial of controverted elections equivalent to the oath therein prescribed to be taken ? 1111. O'CoNNELL moved that the affirmation of Mr. Pease be taken instead of an oath. The principle which the house had already decided 'exempted the' him member from taking the oath in - his admission into the house, and the principle haying been decided, it seemed to follow that this exemption extender; to this partii tiler statute. 'the acts of parliament all went. the full length of substituting an allirmatiou by, the people called Quakers, for au oath all eases, with particular exceptions, I which were detailed, and the present was celtainly not an ex ception. The Speaker inquired what were the excepted cases ? Mr. O'CONNELL said that the - exceptions - were - in all criminal cases—serving on juries, and in cases of holding emolumentary 1 offices under the Crown. The present case did not come-within these exceptions, and therefore the former decision of the house must prevail. lie therefore moved that the affirmation of Mr. Pease be received. The SPEAKER hoped the hon. and learned gentleman would not cOnceiee - that he had - improperlv called tireattention of the house to the subject (hear), and-ago that he would- pardon him for the seemingly disorderly manner in which he-had called upon the hon. and learned lgtntleinan to state the exceptions, one of which had never crossed his (the Speaker's) mind. lie must, however, remind the house, that the proceedings of the committee might result in criminal consequences to the parties, and therefore it was desirable the house should act deliberately, wiTh a vie w'to maintaitritvomrdignity. --- - • - Mr.'O'CoxsEt.i. had not thrown out any thing that did not recognise the propriety of the interference of the chair in the present instance ; he felt, in` common with the house, that it was consistent with the-entire duty, ..9f the Speaker. (Hear.) He had the acts now b 6 ire which fully bore out his former Statement, and he would merely add, that it would be a strange anomaly to suppose that the house, - after allowing :a - member to take his seat on making-his affirm=ation, would say that he seas unfit to discharge the functions of a member of the house.— (Hear, hear.) • - Sir - lt. PEEL said, -that if s&h.anomaly existed, it ought to be regulated by act of Parliament. He was of opinion that the present case did not come within the exceptions stated, and the same rule on which the honourable member had - been enabled to sit as a member of the house, ought to enable him to perform all the duties of a member:, The SPEAK hit said that tisllie attention of the house had been called to'the subject.; upon which, from what he hod heard, he concluded-that no difference of opitritin existed, it would per hapS be more expedient if the hon. and learned member for Dublin should make no-motion:but the other members on the committee, and take the - affirmation of the lion. member for Durhani, catering it up - on the records that such was d9ne with the consent and approbation of the house. (Hear, hear.) Mr. O'CoNNELL salt! thittpereciving . such to be theyrevail ing sentiment of the house, he should, with leave, withdraw his motion. (Hear.) The oaths were then administered in' the usual way, and Mr. Pease made his affirmation. Mr. Go nso N said, that in consequence of the imperfect return made to an orderisue(l on his motion during the last session of • Parliament, he begged to renew his former motion for an order direaetholhe rector, churchwardens, -aiia overseers of the pa rish of,Easthamstead i in the county of ilorks, to return all ac count of all hi,!hways, driftwa}s, rides, or_ footpaths slopped up since the .yearlB2o; and also au order directed, to the ciet 1, - . of. the peace for the, said county of Berks for an account of all or ders of justices fOr stopping up auy roads orfoutpaths in the said parish of Easthamsteud since the year I 8•4." Mr. HALL DARE presented a petition from the magistrates of the Epping.division of the count y of Essex,. praying for an al teration or.the repeal of :the Jieerßill. • Sir B. Bt . I.KELEY presented .petitions for ,the abolition of Slavery-from-baugor.und three other.places in Auglesea.; also_ petitions from the landowners of Anglesea and the mail-coach contractors and others of the line of road front London to Holy head, complaining of the high rate of fares charged by the government 4:cam-packets front Holyhead to Howth. Mr. O'CONNELL hoped the attention of governyrent would be called to the subject'of the expenses charged for couveN - once between Dublin, and Ilolyhead. Ile helieyed that 61Gse expenses were as ,high between Dublin and HolYhead as be tween Dublin and_Liverpuol. Sir F. VUNCENT postp•med his,motion; for enabling persons pledging . goods to insure them against losses by fire till Tiles- - day week. . 11:1S11 Mr. Emma Patataai said that the subject of the motion he ;was. about to submit to the lionise—namely, the appointment of ! aeleotahounnitiee to inquire into the laws_relative.iu .the_passe ing of Irish vegrants—was one which . intimately interested. the !whole conomenityl, and when it was considered how (Li ply al'- 4ected many of the caninties in England were by, the, operation of the existing laws e ha thought. it would not be held undeserv ing the .attention of the government and the house. The ex treme expense attendant on passing- the Irish poor fiwn - one ,country to the other was well known, and had fi-equentiy been b relight- underthe andiceeof.thadionse. _ elniK ) B a esimulittee was 'appointed to investigate the subject, and that committee made a report which it was thought would have provided for the - Tenses of various kind* , incurred by the passing of the Irish la ;hoaxers in that. year; but after the presentation of the report, 'the bill had been withdrawn. .A bill on the same subject had also been introduced ; during the last session of Parliament, but he (Mr. Penner) was not aware that It had passed the house.' lii_oraer to show while:a:hat railitgralead:nraesaare these chaaages whighed,oh the different counties in England, he would refer to the returns:, which showed the number of perSoni . passed during the last fivayears, and he was very sure that when the • house heard the statement they would come to the conclusion that some legislative measure ought to .be adopted with regard to this subject: Inthexponty of Berks atoue, , for, the last tive years, the number of Irish labourers passedrose from 2,272 to 4,551, and the expenses incurred by that county for this purpose rose also from £Bl5 to ai:ls annually. Th es e returns showed an annual increase in the whither of persons passed since the year .1828. • In the County of Wilts a simi lar increase was observable, while in GloueesterShire the ex penses varied from £1200.t0 £llOO annually.. Withoutaletain ing the house by any further detailed statements, he would just quote what were the average expenses incurred by a few of the English counties during the last five years. In iiertfordshire ' Elba; in Northamptonshire, a:756; in Warwickshire, £9 8; in Staffordshire, £1687; in Cheshire, i:9oj; in Berkshire, £855; in,Wiltshire, £1000; in Gloucestershire, £1285; and in Lan cashire, where the returns are-only reckoned for the last four years, £1689. It had beeniascertained that almost all the indi viduals. thus passed had come front London. Now, admitting the influx . to be unavoidable, many questions would arise as to what was the best mode of preventing the gloat mischief thus created. Ile had no hesitation in saying that the cheapest pos sible mode, provided it were an efficient one, ought to be adopt ed. The hon. member then referred to the acts of Parliament which are at present iii force on this subject. . By the 59th Geo. ce 12, he observed the power was given to magistrates to re i move Irish paupers, and specified the manner in which they were to hearemoveaL . This was in the .modearequired by a for mer act, the 17th Geo. 11, a. 5. But magistrates acting under these acts had 110 power to remove Irish vetivers in' any other mode than the way specified in them, or to charge the expenses of the transportation in any other manlier than that Voitted out. He thought the noble lord - would agree with him as to the expe diency of altering the laws on this subject altogether. Lie eouitl see no reason why a person born' in Ireland should, by the mere circumstance of a six hours' sail, be placed in a different posi tion as to his claims on sc.;lety; or why his means of support should be so greatly Altered. Ile believed the house would agree with him in the view he toek of thematter, and would concur in the propriety of appointing the committee of - inquiry; which inquiry should be taken up from the period of the existence of the last committee, in 1828. Ile proposed that the inquiries of the emu:. inittee should be directed to ascertain the best mode of altering the laws to which he hadleferred. if, - however, the noble lord (Althwp) would promise to take the matter into his serious con sideration early in the next sessions of Parliament, with a view to an alteration, he (Mr. Paltrier) would not at the present moment press the subject further than moving the appointment of a " select committee td inuire into the law relative to the passing of Irish vagrants, with' a - view 'to its amendment, and to report their opinion thereon to the house." - Lord ALTHORP said he would not oppose the motion. Mr. EWART observed, that the charges in question' were se verely felt in the manufacturing townse Lord SANDUN contended that the que:Aion of - the Irish poor laws ought to be settled heft); e any enactment on the -subject before the house were entertained. lie did not, agree with the hon. member for Oldham with respect tO pre.qare of 'the poor lan'f - i►i the co - hilly - Of Laueailaaia — liianarah - utnyheiretteved, they were yery light compered with otheaplaces. • Mr. SLANEY thought that the only remedy fin ( the evil was to • find employment for the Irish labourer at' home. 'He was now , a rival with the English labourer, in the market of labour here ; but there was no doubtasullieient work could be found for him in his own country. That . being done, - England weld& no longer be inundated with IriSh hibourers. Ile should not op pose the motion, but he considered the plan he had pointed out the only true remedy for the evils complained OE' There was an apparent increase in the population of Ireland, because severalphices•enumerated in alie returns of 1831 were not in cluded in those of 1821 ; hut the population of Ireland, like the negro population of the - West Indies, was, in fact, dett'casing. He frequently heard in that house cant about. the superabun , dant population of Ireland; but Mr: Senior had calculated that Ireland was able to maintain a population of 19,000,000. How. then, could the population be redundant when it amounted to . only 8,0U0,000? case of Ireland would be coming before Parliament again and again, in every possible shape, until something' was cone to identity - the prorietors of the soil with the cmiutrv.- The honourable 'member for the county. of Meath talked of the poor laws effordingpeople deployment in iie;ai d. 387 Ili! could understand that poor laws could give the people foot% but not employment. In England, - 1:8M0,000 were annually paid_.a.iii poor-rates, which was erinal to one-half_ of all zuat was paid for the support of the army, navy ; and ail the establishments of the country, from the King doWn to the lowest constable; but if the report of the poor-law commis.tiouers might be credited, this large expenditure of money produced but little comfort and happmess.—The main «•as agreed to. Mr. SLANEY moved for and obtained leave to bring for better rating tenements under a certain annual CROWN LANDS. On the motion of Lord A LTHORP, the order of the day for taking into consideration his Majesty's message, recommend ing the house to appoint a committee toinquire into the manage ment of-the Crown lauds, was read. .. _ Lord ALTHOItP then moved an address to his Majesty, acknow ledging the receipt of his message.—Agreed. ford AurnoaP next moved that a select committee be ap pointed to inquire into the management of the woods and- W rests, and the revenues arising therefrom. He expressed his opinion that it would appear upon investigation that the value of - the - Crown -lands -had- been greatly -exagge rated.• •• • - Mr. D. W. HAI: VEY said that he was one of those who thought that a member of that house could not b e more uefullvengagei`:, .nor serve his country mote efficiently, th an by direct'ing his at tention to one particular object, and, acting upon that opinion ‘ he had applied himself to the subject of the revenues derived from Crown lands, and very shortly •after.he had the honour el being returned to Parliament he brought it under the cons-ide— ation of the house. About four sessions back he occupied te' considerable - portion of the time of the boost. it. ,x-yosirtg, what he believed up to that period wasinit little known, the real state of this portion of public property, in tracing its origimand, in short; of stating all the information on the subject which he, with ranch care, hail collected. Ile was much pleased that the government bad resolved toappoint a coinmittee on this subject; beraitee, as he' had a notice upon the paper of a motion relative to it next week, it w °old sa.ve hint much personal trouble and the house consitierabitt. time. The only ground of regret was, that as the surrender of this property by his Majesty formed a prominent topic in his Ma jesty's address - to -- Parliament at the • - commeireedient of hiii reign, and was touch dwelt upon by the then Ministers as au instance of the liberal cenduct of his Majesty, and as the •huuse was always prompt-to acquiesce in the his Majesty, particularly on such a subject as this, two years and a half tad ben eiffered to e4ipse without the appointment of a committee. The noble lord had expresSed an opinion tliiittmod" Value of the Crown lands w-s Much exaggerated- 'When a subject was involved in darkness, and persons were cmnpelled to form - their own conjectures - respecting it, thcie was a probability that • exaggeration might exist, but when he looked at the great esta blishment at Whitehall, and the number of distingui,hed prrsole %,ho front time to time did • not hesitate to fill tfu; useful but suleir:linate ollices of land-surveyors, he cou.d not but think the property in qucstioii WaS Of - grcratiii - Nrifittide. • Ile firmly believeu that the property was of great value, though the aristocracy had considerably diminished its amount since it was suirendered to' the - people by George 111, fie 4;4 lint hesitate to say that some of the noblest portions of this property had been obtained by some of the fiat families in the kingdom for tery suspicious considerations. It 'would it.lind some idea of the extent - of - this - Tr - min/Tin - state that the suns received as rental from 1705 to 1896 was £2,374,321, cf which only £8624 found its way into the public Exche quer; and from '1826 to 1899 the soul received was i.:1,50q,d.40 • of which not a single - shiliing had come into the Ex-In-vet— t Ilear,) This property ought to be made-available for nie pub lic.servite, main order to enable the Chancellor of the Exche ipier to agree to the repeal of the malt duty, lie liiiirrecommended him to go into the city and raise five or "six millions on the Crown lands. He also thought it would be advisable to issue front !. - .1.0,0(1000 to . E 15,0 00,C00 of notes to be Called the Crown land notes, to be receiy ed in pavnient for taxes, and not convertible into gold at.all. This n (mid be a circulating medittni based o n real property, -- and he really thought the experinient - Worth . -try, ink*. With respect to the committee proposed to lie anpointe he expec'eted but little good to result from it, and-IteAftought mould be better to appoint a commission to take evidence iii those parts of the country in which Crown lands ireve 1 . 116 hon. member concluded with . stating; that he estimated the value of the Crown lands at £15,000,000 sterling, and that it cost • '2O per' cent. in the collection, . _ _ . )11.. Ili MR said that the Crown lands in Scotland required investigation. Lard' Df , NrANNON said, that it experience should prove that a counnittee could not sufficiently investigate the subject, he would not object-to the appointment-of a entunlis , ion.. lie ac counted ftir theinonev received as rent not having been Faid into the Exchequer by the circumstance that it went to Lis chare.a .debt•lvhich was fixed upon the crown laud department. Only 1:100,()00 of that debt now remained; and it wouid , be paid off in the course of the present year.- The hon. member was' incorrect as to the expense of collecting this .revenue ; it was only 10 per cent. The motion was then agreed to, and the committee appointed. ST.\IIIP ACTS. - Lord ALTHOIIP brought up the report-cm-the stamp.a,cts. • Mr. Hum E said that on a future occasion he thought he should be able to satisfy , the noble lord that the revenue would lose filithing . if the duty on advertisements were reduced to Is. Mr. Count.= took that opportunity of asking the noble lord whether it was his intention to propose such an alteration' ot the Stamp Act as would render freehold property liable to the . legacy and probate duty; as well as personal property ; if not, he would move for leave to bring in a bill to effect this object. Lord ALTItORP said that he did not intend to propose the a - teration to which the hon. member's question referred. • Mr. -W-A.soN expressed his regret at hearing the declaration of the noble lord. The landed interest contrived in all matters of taxation to shift the burden from themselves upon the poorer classes. Sir E. KNATCHISULL defended the landed interest, and pro tested against. its being constantly held up to odium iu that house.—The report was agreed to. SAVINGS-BANKS' ANNUITIES BILL. Lord ALTHORP pastponed the third reading of-this _bill, and in answer to a question from the hon. member`for Oldham; said that he intended to omit the clause which requires deposi-. tors to give one month's notice before they could withdraw their deposits. Mr. T. A TTWOOD had ever regarded the whole schemes of savings banks as a fraudulent delusion on the part of the go vernment towards the people. Saving's banks served no other purpose than diverting so much currency from productive in dustry, amid enabling the minist e rs of the time b e i ng to c l aw the - pockets of the industrious classes, and-cloak the mischiev ous designs under a pretended manifestation or anxiety to pre-- mote their interests. The fact was, savings banks made ail those connected with them the merest slaves of the govern ment. Lord ALTHORP had yet to karn that it was not highly desirz , .- ble that the working classes—for whom savinzs banks worts in tended—should not have a state in the public tends and thereby an interest in maintaining the institutions of tue country. (Hear, hear.) The bill was then ordered to he read a third time to-morrow. Mr. P. PALMER, moved -the second reading of the high sheriffs' office regulation bill. • The SOLIeITOR.GEISMIAL would not formally propose the bill by moving that it be read a second time this day six months, but would, with a view to an effective- qposition at' alnture stage, state that he entertained Iltrnn..ir objections:to its . principie, lie conceived it highly objectionable, so far as it went, to throw the expense of the office of high-sheriff on the county, as pm posed in the bill. It was well known in practice,.that the under 6heriff's'•fees,•fully sufficed, not only to defray the.charge at tendant upon the office of high-sheriff, but to prove a source of emoltrinent•to himself. Then, in counties in which the miner sheriff's fees were' trifling, the gentry. from among whom the sheriffs were chosen, made a joint siml fund which deli•aytd the expenses. Mr. STRICK L A N t;. in support of tho bill, ..contended that the country-was much indebted to the honourable member for Reading (Mr. F. Palmer) •for endeayourincr to do away with the unnecessary and onerous -expenses attendant upon the office of high-sheriff. He thought, however, it would be better to curtail all unnecessary expenses--;the remnant of a barbarous age—than throw the expense'on the. county. rates. age—than bill was •then read a second time; and ordered to i e com mitted-on Wednesday week. 'Mr. SL A NEY 'obtained leave to bring in a bill to facilitate the exchange or sale of small portions of entailed propert y,.(nnuer certain regulations,) without 'the expense of o:separate art of Parliament for each case. HomE then presented a petition from Ashton-under- Line, calling the attention of the house to the case of Robeit Taylor, and-praying that no man might be punished for the ex presion of his opinions. - Sir R. VYI YAN objected to the reception of the petition ip so thin a house, and utter the business of the. .eY4anng-hud been, disposed of. On the motion of the honourable baronet, the house was counted, when it appeaTel that there.were only thirty-six rucui hers present, upon which the Speaker adjourned the house. Mr. Holmes, one of the Secretaries of ite- Treasury, under the Duke of 'Wellington, has been much-iny eiiiminnication• ivi•h Mr. Charles Wood and Mr. Spring. 'Vice, (41611 , 4 the last tv u days. Rumour states that Sir -Hoi,trt lk-el,'lrho is the intirn7!te ni,na of Mr. llohnes, is corning into.iiilic:.-- , Court fulfreta:.