The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-03-12 00:00:00

e 251. wages was so low not say the 1 011 0 1 bare necessaries ions to this ineties4o the governmen t P re, ution of expend itu e d„ tep which the e v e :e was to place ,!, 44 1 a committee. is, which the ge'a, ' Dnseip ence re duce ( , menced the task ° er that they reig hl fficers to submit to te d iat the governul el V The scale of salary? .e a fit and efficielq6. e salaries of persevk er than the salaries,. , but they were 0'0? )üblic companies. e,l ast India Comp as the full as high °V erannuations were, that in the eye!? to superannuatio 0 annually from th e rt of the holders °f nment of the annoilev diff er ent revenue o ld eduction, if any, ° ti c , ct with governme l/ 0 0' Lone with as great e v e, ing to those etuPVI) i as would insure lA, , and take froul iefraudin,g the rev e, ° o to keep those enipl e. o 11 salaries as w oula w , ionestly or carele s %o •ould not press 0,0 sent form, yet be ht expose him to- rig . that the hon•Al!lstertig mated that an in. Loo, Aficers would be a he eration would no t b iel! lling to give the O r „t% claimed for the Nei reductions woula ' lie until they did ater, a pensions altog e ti; s o nissioner of custou opt e rannuated on a cc i ° o; 11 from the term of la salary of £lio o 0,000 a year. ( oe B o tO nce of this kind vcas came out in this cli, seY o 4 ep three in a heti. e¢ol4 and therefore they ! t ar he had seen one who had held a hiPali; charge the duties, o ,dr and thus the c oati' of of the part who O s He had noy wish t ° o o led upon to do so, 1 1,0 ,l to whom he allo''',„fo, pl ,711 situation in olle,(0' to retire to make "?' d, on his retireinelit, to the circumstance. 13,)'' rcester (Mr. Robield) ad been supernal° ,; of £l2OO a year, obsed .etirement took pla ce ji,, could state, that birriji cut the retiring i1'„ ° 60 7 , 4 ss than the scale ino-A, in the discretion ef got allowed to retire on to t / question of the 0°10! ich the Treasury c, ° ` 0 '0,,, / ranee must de lend her d the length of time e who were acquaie d r o ns employed in t he perform would not fe,‘, as ample. When the Lain situations, it ongt) a equally qualified for.? g allowance. If qualified the hey should not pre fc ,f 3 iii, the country now l',oll ild be different if tb - e al 1 number of qualifi.o, a barrister, had 0, 4 ,0 1 . ! but here it was ot%-alli a large body Of,„ - Si! action of those viusi s st without any hope °' Vynn Ellis, Mr. G"' - o ed successively addro f vi irative low rates official persons. ,91 I) wished to recall tio that was really. 13'00 ed, that the salaries, in' ,ries had been raise,tl' i‘o the currency.. l o d different gentleraeo; t .eceived the smallere of wages would "st fission in that house' s eally had the wedl tr t he on that side or the 0 f s of the necessity 9' 17 :'hey must have tog hear.) .. Steuart and Mr. ion. N o rstood, was with& COMMONS. • house the motif to a select cot ion, relative ' mons. He r of the him t it did not rho were cal 'y could not was theref rations cola( in the prose' rs. The rey ect which is occupied house iu wh, he accomm4 held in his arded space, e to make si the object ber might by i be accomt is width. F ar that the that as to I .han one-halt not includ onveniently such a dints ly (which it it) then, it w In no place he accounno, refer to the e: sed a few 1:1k, ler was quite ac y commodat tllery were nost impossii in, almost hame that ti ed in a situa Men who that house 01 on. He col 'embers had mt inconven blest men it yhject, had thoroughly. fi ghter. end The co mm itt ee to w h om this subject had been 4 re came to an almost unanimous resolution; the chairman e he believed, remained of a different opinion. They re isle:, first, "That it is the opini on o f thi s comm itt ee th a t th e House•of Commons•does not afford adequate accommo seva for the members." He believed that scarcely one dis ili‘unent, Voice could be found oposed to this resolution. (Cries *l lO , I ° -, no," and "Hear, hear.") If there were any gentlemen over tied from it, certainly their ideas of accommodation N th ollferent from his. The second resolution was, "That no ease eaccommodation or improvement as the necessity of the f or 4 , ailed for could be made in the present House of Commons '4 4 7 general convenience of the members." Looking to the %ate' in which th e y were a t presen t p l ace d, h e ca l cu l a t e d pr at „ y lost f rom twenty to forty minutes in pursuing the old ill g t c o eof di v idi ng, which rendered it necessary for one party to ktai so t he lobby. It was f requent l y w i t h t h e greatest di ffi culty, temetaretim.es not with ou t using gen tl e f orce ( a l aug h,) th a t th e ‘'llt th e were got out. If they continued the rule of sending getier minority in which number, he feared, he should be found (a laugh,) the consequence would still be, that o il • `l o lly oafs who came early would be deprived of their seats, toetZillortant occasions, and others who had not so attended 13 t D r ; t ake possession 'of them. Hear hear.) In the case Ilieli' ; 'ate bills he had known men to sit'and vote contrary to 444 inclinations rather than run the risk of losing their seats 01 11 .. 6 out. (Ilear, hear.) He had known members to tostitet.;roained fast asleep in their places, and to have been Posed mate supporting the very motion to which they were op •Et a n uivisions they could save half an hour it would et e of very considerable importance, pressed as they .c,t,h a variety of business. Now, with respect to build -4h n s 7,ew house, he understood that the expense would not be t tl t 'T ;. , more than would be required for altering the old. ‘e4t,,'Lleas were thrown out on this subject. One was, to ex hist it ue house by taking in the lobby. Next, it was suggested 4 4ei ra ight be enlarged in the direction of Covent-garden, 1 1 1.4 14 t i 4 ri e house of Mr. Ley would afford excellent site for sadt • But they wanted proper ventilation; and in the j,tl lt — i s 4) eg the air would be obstructed by the House of Lords °,7 gallery ; that was, therefore, objected to. Final asproposed to b u i l d i n a di rect l i ne between t h at h ouse e) .k e dins'er, To thatproposition he believed there was scarce euting voice. lu England they were very deficient Z s eht;,"Pect to publi c buildings; but he could not have a mo eB;ihh,esitation in saying, that where business of such im- Ved ,i7Portance was transacted, those by whom it was tran- Oet e ,7"nld be allowed the utmost possible accommodation. le " re tie felt no unwillingness whatever on the score of ,ea t bins that consideration was a mere bagatelle. th i e a r.) Lookine to the national expenditure, copsider- Ac e . t aanner in whi b ch the public money was applied, he the propriety of devoting a sum to the purpose "ad described would not admit of an), question at all. ' 4 '414 gtehtt.tle. men, he knew, cherished a strong recollection of 4'Y snx !it• had passed in that house, and were, in consequence, 1 1 ,4 es ti ,°, ll s.that no change should take place. Ile . could rea . feelings of gentlemen on that point, but, in man, utility was wiiat l the e y _ought principally to keep in grldr f or ° ,that ground aon ~he was anxious to bring this ward. There was a part of the house where idlers I,l2hresorted. (A prolonged cry of "Bar, bar," and hht s ter; the space below the bar affording at that . mo qtlnktractical illustration of the hon. member's meaning.) e o llee s v et . plan might be adopted he hoped that the inconve s44l4 b e a t Present felt would be remedied. However, that I, l thi s ,„ subject for future consideration :he did not . wish le t t ters' "" be done hastily. He thought it would be evident is,kee", ° tle, from the few observations he had made, that bet ir.taodation than the house now afforded was neces be„‘"e oil Proposed to move that the report of the select com toilers ' a "' session, for making the house more commodious, 1 4 ,,tte ete e a d to a select committee, and that the . committee be report their observations and opinions thereupon F se ., lie believed that the noble lord (Althorp) this course. The committee could call for further iu oittb`te l and have plans and estimates laid before them. I t ioh - ,",,een a proposition to remove the house to another, istc - all he felt satisfied that a better building might be k es %,,'' e llchere, but they could not well alter the situation of less t. e l l — a o lls without changing that of the Lords at the same tie as he believed they were not prepared to remove the v!tl'eseBs,- y et ( great laughter), it wolud be better to preserve l 'hliel„ - ",,locality of the House of Commons. The hon. mom- Ns s -t • W7ed with a motion to the effect before stated. the :he o ;;,!;atarroN seconded the motion, and referred to the ''etl,ece e s' Smirke, from which it appeared that there was thr t 'etis; l4 edati on for ' more than 350 members in the house, • here '"e space under the gallery, and allowing to . to .d feet t by . Li g h -a- t hall for each individual. 560 members del, ed kt,t l l4 ' and, according to the calculation, 210 of the mem ''teree s ''°t have found convenient He was aware s op b let e .,,qrsons thought a space of one foot eight inches by be itiN't inches sufficient for each member, and upon that - 141 10 ° , 11 the house would accommodate more than 350, but it ,„ 4 11 co nsider the space allowed by Mr. Smirke too much ; etrletl7 4 be borne in mind that members who frequented Ytw o ` s , usually required six feet by two rather than three vs,' l ,anghter,)—a consideration which, if taken ino the el,•!es t ''l!nt show that there was not accommodation for t more •',,, 1 15e 4 , - :"‘J, members He objected to the oblong shape . of ral s tAnconvenien . t and every way inferior to a semicir- Lmt " s o;', 4l ch would admit of a better position for the speaker ..•lch he now occupied. "Sir," continued the hon. trte 4 ° u have not, like Janus, eyes in your head, and dYu 4 1 -11 not always see in every direction. (Great laugh ,e4e :aY, Sir you have not eyes in the back of sour head, L 'isOj h ''not see - svhat goes on in that part of the louse be 'll4 or a lr, which is called, I suppose, from the superior thgl i 4 ti n-.l e 11)4, occupants, Solomon's porch. ( Laughter.) There, jtsi there is frequently the greatest disorder, which i' t kt t (ki!, v ented if you could have your eye on every mein tijos s Arti ; I 'M) On these grounds:because of its deficiency se I ° d tin, • • nvenient shape, and bad arrangement, s,“`kt;'rlo k e 4ti s i l . , with the resent house. On e . of the recommenda ,:)lll,lr,,in held in view for constructing a new house was, 1 `t•ito ca ue carried on without interrupting any of their pro @fight house or in the committee-rooms, and m be completed by the commencement of the next c I A4 kur Or to b :, tl °llP admitted that when there was a full house NVI) i .;"nience was felt, and such being the case, i t was ,ois e e ; t t, , ) ,(h:cide upon what was best to be done. Ile did L e s thi s in the light of a min isteria l . or party question. Ne,'" the house to consider as individuals whether kklA t tit, to " ll Was necessary. It would require a good deal of N, 11 141 Satisfy him that there existed a necessity for chang :4 by run of the house, but he was accessible to convic 4sle i a q no objection to a select committee being ap ul 4,141(1114e into the subject. t e Las agreed w i t h th e hon. member for Middlesex ii t .it should not constitute an obstacle to the proposed . 1, t he alteration appeared to be necessary ; but the). lloider, not whether the house afforded sufficient ae on two or three nights in the year—such as Wed at whether it was adequate to the transaction of 'very-day business? Had any gentleman ever 7hicil the ordinary business of Parliament could ,an in the present house ? The really inapor the country was done by houses consisting of Members : was there not ample accommodation It was better to have the house too small for year than too large on all the remaining days. 'duals ever formed a deliberative assembly ? !et e d to an y alteration, on the ground of the feeling that might be produced by an aboli lssociations, and the abandonment of a scene ollections of the noblest patriotism, and the most , ce. '"Ea observed, that he dissented altogether from n•essed by the hon. baionet; it was on great lug the best interests of the country that the 'e of members took place: and those were pre -I°ns wh en it was most important to afford ac itch th e house did not now present. tssoN said that, according to the hon. bart., r ° ol ll fo r such an attendance as generally oc int," a turnpike-bill, but when great and vitally a rcise, t mattered not if the house did not ,nation one-half the members who attended. '"oral feelings and associations on an oc he:V. question was as to the accommodation Atind, that' t present there was not su ffi cient ac t b e'ng the case, steps must be taken to "A" said a few words, which were not heard in .RD had sat in three Parliaments, and during He .40 deficiency of accommodation lie did not king a space of two feet nectss,ay for the ac each member • agree with the hon. member for It was well knoin that in the within a space of N inches. Why liamnt occupy a larger space? (Great laugh tans (laught er, which wa s renewed on the hon. ug the words, which he did three several times invent in the house allowed him to proceed ' ) the itered the size of the Forum Itumanan r.) He wi s h e d to follow the exam i. (Pro. " example of thelghter); h e did nut want to get rid Qf the append' , CL cu.- - pro t . ,,c l k,C t i_if°,! shoe eto the 1),," 'Nk 4 `ne obsercejt Asider, use, tor",;4 ,t p‘\ ll ort I it afford t e : 1 1 but died 011 ,4 ° 0 4 )1,,, et t oia i ) , ev discP;o o ,l, o l 4. o 4 tb t , 4 tl wl fore aPlct e fo t t the Id be t coj tha t t, ) ,!af sent he c i l- t ila , , b, tee t! 1) 2 ,, , 00 eport o' 13- 01 1 ' ' 4 (l tht - •gber? they °P oi ae o , ?: the for a e° „ l3° ) o,j ' 4 llg he 44i yia iich th e ' tc 4 ,o• th ot,2bi„ Ile, - 4 4 74° 411 hand 600 , 4 , It„-e4 id hleht t ip re . a 0, v.o a 'i t er' It,eti hq'ttifitteeC Merl 1 51 0 proP" - It aeo dt '4 1 C . ,q1 q4 f-ttis )0 est'' ( 1, 13 i c leO e xPr imoda t t e be e' s li ly l ktt Qt 7e 'to Froro 0.00 14be ,ance hOU Se ;Od 3ti l b kt 4 kti f , t-t4 i° ,ccOM t oe° N . t Whi f the . e l° * • PR I& If 0 t ho , get 4.kt b Gt ding.„dea to ett i 44 it e „, to . b jc m e cas, tan ce . ' o osS , cptestic w as 1°4 4 1,1 13 ji 4111 Mod, as sta te : t ell I, l ' to tail ' . here 5 s o 0 ',.; '4 tl l t ltre the 0,10 , the hi odat iell ee ej- esP eriell • ( I I k; it, 4 en , an Lightl, 3 Fx° ,l le o t Bija~ek[NMl a te rf be lation . no e-ha 4 , '1) 1 . only t - pas 9 ', V Uri.' [ low AT ,sible. th : e a r e ri s i:g° , -1 0 ilt t S l 4 ll : d the bu s o e %": 0; 'l4 'd 4 tn] la tiou t teow of e a as h et. ) t to P e c or° stood outo - te t . p. Tl l 4l. l'• Dui laet ko a m% Ow' th 'Peatin nien t t ' 'ol4llal vos ). 4 tle etti la tL, l'er been 1 ,- (gear, THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD. ages about him (renewed laughter); he was not disposed to do away with this unassuming house (a laugh) ; he did not mean the members, he spoke of the house itself. (Laughter.) He disapproved of the plan of substituting in its place a kind of semicircular theatrical building, such as had been proposed. The hon. member proceeded to say he had seen the public chambers on the continent, and the result of his observations 'was, that it was very difficult to construct a large building in a manner favourable to hearing. You might even have two edifices of the same shape and dimensions, and in one the hearing would be good, and in the other bad,—it was a kind of mystery in the science of acoustics. (Great laughter.) Therefore, if they built another house; they could not guaran tee that it would be so well adapted for the purpose of Parlia ment as the present. The hon. gentleman next observed, that on the seat now so ably occupied by the Speaker Sir Thomas More had formerely presided, and there nobly maintained the dignity of the Commons, withstood all Royal infringements, and successfully resisted Cardinal Wolsey. (Laughter and cries of Question.) Mr. O'CONNELL.—One word in sober sadness. He would ask the house whether it was not desirable that, in one way or another, the public should be acquainted with the conduct of their representatives in . Parliament? And,how was it possible for them to be correctly acquainted with it, if not only the members themselves, but those who reported the proceedings of the house, were unprovided with proper accommodation ? (Hear.) It was desirable that every facility should be afforded for giving what passed in parliament to the world, and that their proceedings should no longer go forth as if merely by con nivance and sufferance. There was no use in pretending to be blind to the matter,—the thing was done,—their proceedings were regularly published, and he might as well add that the public would not suffer the publication to be suppressed. If the obsolete rules and orders of the house on this subject were enforced—if the right of publication were resisted, they would have a revolt among the people. (" Hear," and " Oh,'oh.") Under such circumstances, accommodation should be afforded with a view to their proceedings being communicated fairly and accurately to the public, and difficulties ought not to be interposed which rendered the plea of inaudibility or want of requisite accommodation sufficient to account for the existence of defects in the reports. The hon. baronet spoke of the moral associations and inspiring recollections connected with that house, and alleged them as reasons for not abandoning it, but he had not gone far enough back in his reminiscences; he should have directed attention to the time when this was St. Stephen's Chapel, 'and when the sacrifice of the mass had been celebrated in it. It was necessary to advert to that circum stance in order to complete the historical recollections which connected the house with times gone by; but it would not have served the hon. baronet's purpose to go so far back. We had come at last to the days of common sense; and on the pi esent occasion it was not necessary to talk of Pym or Hampden, when the only point to be decided was that of convenience or inconvenience. If it was resolved not to remedy the defects complained of by an alteration of the house, the only way that remained to remove the inconvenience was to send 105 of the members back to Ireland. (Laughter.) Mr. D. DUNDAS objected to voting away the public money, for the purpose of building a new House of Commons, whilst so many i of the people were starving. Mr. M. O'CONNELL observed, that the gallant officer made no objection to voting away the public money, when Mr. Hume's motion on military pensions and sinecures was under discussion, on which occasion the hon. and gallant member voted in the majority. Mr. D. DUNDAS was glad of the opportunity afforded him of explaining the grounds of his vote on Mr. Hume's motion, especially as representing a large constituency; he had several letters from voters calling on him to do so. On the occasion referred to, the hon. member for Tralee admitted that if the mo tion were agreed to the army must be paid more than at present; but he (Mr. D. Dundas), thinking that they were paid suffi ciently, had refused to support a resolution the result of which would be to increase the charge of the army. The resolution was then agreed to, and the committee was ap pointed. FEES OF CLERKS OF THE PEACE. Mr. HODGES moved for the appointment of a select commit tee to inquire into the fees, charges, and emoluments of the clerks of the peace and the clerks of assize in England and Wales. Mr. HUMS hoped that the committee would inquire whether the party receiving the fees did the duty themselves or by de puty. Mr. HODGES said that the object of inquiry was to embrace the whole subject. Mr. SLANEY observed that local taxation was a very fit ob ject of inquiry, when it was considered how much it had in creased within a tew years, and that 'it amounted to nine mil lions annually. (Hear.) The motion was agreed to, and the committee appointed. delude the ignorant, which he was not prepared to contest. lie would undertake to do that himself. (Laughter.) Mr. Coaam rose, but was received with cries of " Spoke," and sat down again. Mr. O'CONNELL said it was evident that the right hon. secretary was well prepared for combat (a laugh ;) but, in sober sadness (much laughter) did he mean to deny that the hon. member for Oldham had correctly abstracted the schedules of the stamp act? Vulgar arith metic was a test which never failed in such questions as the present. Although he admired the spirit of chivalry with which the right hon. , secretary had volunteered to break a lance with the hon. member for. Oldham, he would caution him that common sense might triumph _over Treusury dexterity. (Hear and a laugh.) Mr. Hosts expressed a hope that the combat which had been ap pointed between the hon. members would "come off " at an early day. (A laugh.) Mr. FRYER agreed with the hon. member for Oldham in the view he took of the inequality of taxation. Mr. P. How Ann rose to speak to the question, and was received by a universal burst of laughter. The hon. member, however, perse vered in addressing the house. He proceeded to say that the taxes on houses and windows, especially the former, ought to be repealed ; that the country expected this remission, and had great confidence in its being effected by the reformed Parliament ; and he hoped when the budget was brought forward after the sth of April (renewed laughter)-- Slr J. Hosnousa.—The Ist of April. (Here the laughter became most uprorious, and lasted for several minutes.) Mr. 'Howean, as soon as he could obtain a hearing, declared that he would not be put down •in that way. He had always been an earnest and steady supporter of the ministry, and he had expected that more courtesy would have been shown him than had been dis played by the hon. Secretary at War. (Laughter.) The hon. mem ber concluded by declaring that he was doing but his duty in thus earnestly and solemnly calling the attention of the house to the sub ject of the repeal of the house and window taxes. - SECIATt DUTIES. The order of the day for receiving the report of the Committee of Ways and Means having been read, the report was brought up. On the question that it be read, Mr. HUME moved as an amendment, that in future all sugar im ported from the colonies should pay, a duty of 155., instead of 245. He said that though his ultimate object was the equa li za ti on o f th e duties on East and West India sugar, he should for the present limit himself to the above amendment. Ile thought the noble lord, how ever,. would do well to adopt the ad ralorurn duty, which the commit tee had recommended. The reduction which he recommended would not only be beneficial to the country at large but advantageous to the We st India body likewise. • Mr. STEWART said, that the West India proprietors did not deem the present the proper occasion to resist the imposition of the tax. They conceived the Government to be earnestly engaged in the _pre paration of measures of amelioration as respected their (the West India proprietors') interests, anti that the period was approaching when the important question would be decided for ever. Mr. HERRIES said that if the reports were true that Government had some such measures in preparation, it was not right to bring for ward the present resolution. In his opinion there was besides an irregularity,in the proceeding altogether, for the house ought not to be called on to vote money before the way in which it was to be ex pended was pointed out. The house, he conceived, ought not to be called upon to vote away money except for the payment of such Ex chequer bills as were outstanding,•and yet they were now asked to vote all the ways and means. Lord ALTIIORP would admit the general principle that a reduction of duty tended to increase consumption, so as to prevent a loss of revenue, but could not, in the present state of the revenue, venture to adopt such an extensive reduction as that proposed by the honourable member for Middlesex. That reduction would effect the revenue to the extent of £l,Boopo, an amount which conld not be safely risked on the mere chance of increasing the consumption. Ile was less in cluded to make the reduction on recollecting that the revenue lost the whole amount of the reduction from 275, to 245. (hear) ; so that to make a small reduction would only injure the revenue without essen tially benefiting the consumer ; and to make so large a one as from 24s to 15s. would be the risking a very great diminution of the revenue on the chance of a counterbalancing increased consumption. (Hear, hear.) Again, the hon. member said his object was the benefiting the West India interest, by consuming all its produce in this country, and yet in the same breath he proposed the admission of East India sugars at a reduced duty. Did it not follow that the latter proposition would destroy the former, inaasnuch as the competition must tend to drive West India sugar out of the market to the extent of the con sumption of the East India ? Those, however, though strong, were not his chief objections to the hon. member's motion. He conceived that the i present was a most improper time for a d o pti ng suc h a propo sition : n the first place, they were shortly, in the course of the pre sent session, to have to inquire into the general bearing of the East India Company's charter, and also 'a question deeply involving the commercial interest of the West India colonies ; so that, on the face of it, it would be highly inexpedient to adopt any ex parte proposi tion in reference to either interest. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the complaint of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. 'lorries) of his hav ing proposed a committee of ways and means before he had brought forward the financial statement ot'the t'ear, he could only say, that the objection was technical, inasmuch as the house would possess several future opportunities of refusing the grants now asked for. And as to his not having sooner brought forward the annual financial statement, he net d only remind the right hon. gentleman that the quarter ending the sth of April was one of great importance in framing a satisfactory balance-sheet. Last year, for example, that quarter made a difference of .C 600,000, as compared with the same quarter of the year 1831. He only awaited the returns of the current quarter, confident that the financial statement for 1833 would be satisfactory. The report was then received. • On the resolution imposing 249. duty on West India sugar, Mr, Heats proposed his amendment, reducing the duty to 15s. The amendment was negatived without a division, and the original resolution agreed to. The other resolutions were read and agreed to, and the report or dered to be taken into further consideration on Monday next. Adjourned at a quarter past 1 o'clock. _ FRIDAY. The' SPEAKER took the chair shortly after 12 o'clock. Mr. lioocEs brought in a bill for making and maintaining a railway , from London to Greenwich. On the motion of Mr. Alderman Worm, leave was given to bring in a bill to incorporate the Imperial Gas Company. Several road and other private bills having been advanced a stage, he SPEAKER announced that the private business had been disposed of, and put it to the pleasure of the house whether, according to the arrangement made yesterday, the petitions relating to the Irish Disturbances' Bill only should be presented. (Hear.) If, when all those had been presented, there was an opportunity, of course petitions upon other subjects could be presented; but he confessed that he was not very sanguine there would be such an opportunity. (Laughter.) Mr. CURTEIS suggested that the names should be taken as they appeared on the books of the house. 'I he SPEAKER said it would be unfair to strike off the name of any member who had other petitions to present. Gentlemen would have the kindness, when they presented their petitions, to say whether they had others upon any other subject; if they had, their names would of course remain, but if they had not, their names would be struck off. Lord G. LENNox complained that some hon. members had their names down no less than four or live times, whereas he thought that no name should be down more than once. Though he had attended every day at each sitting of the house, he had been. unable to present the petitions with which he had been intrusted by his constitutents, who, in consequence, imagined that he (Lord G. Lennox) was negligent of his duty. Mr. HUME concurred in thinking that much inconvenience arose from the system complained of by the noble lord, and moved that all names entered more than once be struck out. The SPEAKER intimated that at the morning meeting of the house the motion could not be entertained. ntisti DISTURBANCE BILL. Petitions against this measure were presented by Mr. Hume from the Political Union of Dunfermline, the inhabitants of Falkirk, from 1,330 inhabitants of London and its vicinity; from Hounslow, Stroudwater, the Political Unions of Kenil worth and Leamington; Dr. Baldwin from the city of Cork, signed by 20,00 k) of its inhabitants, and from several other places in Ireland; Mr. Herbert Curteis from Battle, Sussex; Mr. Barron from the city of Waterford, and various places in the counties of Waterford and Kilkenny ;, Mr. J. O'Connell from Yonghal; Mr. W. Beetle from St. Michams and two other places in the city •of Limerick ; Mr.. Hall from Newport, Monmouthshire; Mr. T. Attwood from Birmingham and several places in Warwickshire and Staffordshire; Mr. F. O'Connor twelve from various places in Ireland; Mr. Buck ingham from the Political Union of Sheffie.d; . Mr. C. Buller from Liskeard; Mr. Lalor from several places in Ireland; Mr. Brotherton from the Political Union of Salford; the Solicitor- General from the borough of Dudley; Colonel Butler from Ballyragget and five other parishes in the county of Kilkenny; Mr. Sulovan from several other places in the county of kenny; and by Mr. J. Fieldcn from Oldham, signed by 5,000 inhabitants of that place. The Speaker left the chair at 3 o'clock. The house resumed at five o'clock. Sir T. FREMANTLE brought up the report of the committee on the Oxford borough election etition, declaring that so Much of the return as applied to Colonel Stonor was null and void, and that Mry Hughes's petition against his return was neither frivolous nor veNatiotm. A new writ was accordingly issued for the borough. On the motion of LordEnniNoToN, a pew writ was issued for the borough of Mary!ebone, in the room of Mr. Portman, who has, owing to ill health, accepted the Chiltern hundreds. The SPEAKER informed •the house, that the petitioners against the return for the 'Stirling and Linlithgow joint boy roughs had not entered. into the proper recoginzances. .The order of the day for the consideration of this petition was accordingly discharged. Mr. IJENNARD gave notice, that on the 28th of March ha. should move fqr the repeal of the 7th and Bth sectiops of the Ist and 2nd of William IV., c. 32, being the act lately passed for the preservation of game ; arid so much of section 30'of the samp act as is coinprise'd between the words . " Provided always" and the end of the clause: And that on the 16th of April he should move for the repeal of so much of the 7th and Bth of George IV., c. 29, s. t 2, as enacts "That if any person shall break and enter uny dwelling-house, and steal therein any chattel, money, or valuable security, to any value whatever, in any dwelling-house, any person therein being put to fear, every such offender, being convicted thereof, shall suffer death as a felon." On the molion , of Mr. Gittorr, a return was ordered, by address, of a copy of the commission under which the rector ut Porlocj„ in Somersetshires, levied a tithe on fish. (Hear.) On the motion .of Mr. O'Connell, founded on the petition of Miyllonayne, the ballot for a committee on the petition against the return for the borough of Clonmel was postponed till the 16th of May. Lord ALTHORP stated, in answer to a question•of Mr. Gout bur'n, that the'house would meet to-morrow for receiving the petitions against the Irish coercive bill, in the event of that bill's being read a second time that night : if it should not, the house would meet to-morrow, in order to continue the debate; .a.nd meet on Monday morning for the purpose of ,receiving the petitions. GRAND JURIES (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. ST-ARLEY moved the order of the day for the second . reading of this bill. As-the bill was to be -referred for minute discussion to a select committee, he did not anticipate any dis cussion or objection on that occasion. After a few wbrdsl from Mr. O'Cosisiem., approving of die course proposed by the right hon. secretary, the bill was read a second time, and a . select committee appointed. DISTURBANGES (IRELAND) BILL. Lord ALTTIORP moved the order of the day for the second reading of this bill, Mr. HUME said he would take advantage of that opportunity • to state his decided hostility to the measure. He never felt more regret than in thus offering his marked and uncompro.. mising hostility to an administration of which he had hitherto been a warm supporter., .(A laugh, and " Hear.") But if the members of that administration so speedily and indecently . forgot the principles of which they were the noisy advocates for some twenty-five years,--to which advocacy, moreover, they were wholly indebted for their political reputation and power, —and thus ventured to violate the law and the constitution by a measure with,wnich the most arbitrary of their Tory prede cessors would have never dared to insult an enlightened public —a measure which, in the end, would recoil as much to the injury of its framers as it would prove detrimental to the general interests—he at least would do his duty by warning them against the wickedness of their proceedings. (Hear, , hear.) He called upon them to pause in their r ash career . He called upon the house t o p ause i n bestowing its s till more rash sanction. Ministers were bound to prove their case before they asked parliament to arm them with such extraordinary and unconstitutional power,—they were bound to show that they had tried all the known powers of the law in vain, as they were also bound to show that the Irish had no complaints on,. redressed to warrant their being lawless. The hon. member, 4fter expressing his opinion of the expediency of not granting toe extraordinary powers demanded by . government without further information, concluded by moving the following reso- lution :—" That the house deeply laments the disturbed state of some of the districts in Ireland, and is willing to intrust to his Majesty whatever powers may be necessary to control and' punish the disturbers of the public peace, and the midnight violators of the law; but is of opinion that it has not been satis factorily shown, that the existing laws are not sufficient for those purposes, and it cannot, therefore, give its consent to a bill which places Ireland out of the pale of the British consti tution." Mr. Alderman Woon seconded the resolution. He said he . was no enemy to the present ministers; indeed; he was almost ready to lay down his life to support them, both in and out of that house, but he could not give his consent to the proposed bill. He was not disposed to Untie any government, whether Whig or Tory, for the present state of Ireland; the fault lay with the landlords of that country, (hear)—with the magistracy and other authorities, whose duty it was to keep the country in peace, but who shamefully neglected that duty. TANCRED said that the statements made by several of the Irish members in opposition to this bill had satisfied him that the elements out of which society was formed were about to be completely severed in Ireland. Before the house could consider whether the clauses suspending the Habeas Corpus Act, establishing courts-martial, and giving the right of nightly search, were too severe or not, it was requisite to consider Whether they were not necessary to establish the security of liberty and property in that country. He th oug ht t h a t t h ey were necessary for that purpose, and therefore he felt it to be his imperious duty to give his vote for the second reading of the bill. Colonel CONOLLY would not have said one word upon this question had it not been for the hon. member.forlirldleset, whose speech of that evening had been filled with the most extraordinary statements respecting the condition of Ireland which he had ever heard, and which he could only account for on the ground of the hon. member's misapprehension of what was passing in that country. (Hear.) Mr. RICHARDS would not consent to suspend a tittle of the liberty of the people unless he had the opportunity of stating publicly his reasons for doing so. Lord . OXAIANTOWIC denied that the county of Kilkenny was not in a disturbed state. Mr. RoNAYNE rose to g i ve his most strenuous oppos i t i on to this bill of pains and penalties. The bill was, amongst othet things, framed, as appeared by its preamble, to put down cer tain dangerous conspiracies. What dangerous conspiracies ? Ile knew of no conspiracy, except the conspiracy against tithes in Ireland, and ministers were anxious to avow that the bill was not intended to aid the forcible collection of tithes. The bill, it also appeared, was brought firward to put an end to meetings of large bodies of armed persons, who impeded the free course of justice; but what evidence had ministers adduced to show that there were large bodies of armed men going about and filling the peaceable with fear and terror? There wero three or tour inland counties in which a species of agrarian yin lence prevailed, bitt he denied that large bodies of armed 'men were disturbing the free course of justice. Mr. J. BROWNE was one of those who thought the present measure necessary for the safety of Ireland, and should there fore givb it his support. He could assure the hon. member for Middlesex that there were Irish members of respectability and independence who concurred in the necessity of the bill. For his own part he came to that conclusion after the most careful consideration, and after the last five months' personal observa tion of the state of things in Ireland. Sir JOHN KEY wished, in a very few words. to state the rea,- sons which induced him to vote for the second reading of .this bill. Ile conceived that it was impossible for any impartial man, who had heard the discussions that had taken place ou this subject, not to arrive at the conelnsion that it was abso lutely necessary to entrust his Majesty's government with stronger powers to put down the disgraceful insubordination that at present existed in Ireland. (H ear .) Mr. JOHN MARTIN said that he would give his vote for the second reading of the bill, reserving to himself the pOwer, when it was in committee, to object to many' of its details. He en tirely agreed with the statement in the preamble of the bill, that there did exist in Ir e l an d a cons piracy against life and property, and that there were associations in that country which were inconsistent with its peace and tranrillity, and on such grounds he should vote for the principle of this measure. Lord ALTHOR P. The resolution which had been proposed by the hon. member for Middlesex would have been match mow appropri ately introduced upon the first reading of the bill, instead of being brought forward now, aft e r th e bill had been subjected to such a protracted discussion. His hon. friend the member for Kildare, had concurred in opinion with the committee that Aronger measures were necessary ; but it had ben asked why remedial meas u r e s had no t been first proposed, and lvhy the measure of church ref or m h a d no t been brought into the House of Lords. The other house could not do so, for that was a Money question, and must originate in this house ; and therefore he had opened it here, in order to 'sheer" that ministers were ready to adopt measures of a remedial nature. (Hear.) If the house had thought that they (the ministers,) though admitting t flat remedial measures were necessary, stood still and did, not 'nears to remedy the grie vances o f I re l an d, th e y work{ hare no right hi ask the confidence of the house. It had been said that there had been no proof that political agitation was connected with prandial crimes. No man could be farther than he from contend ing that political agitation was the sole cause of praxlial offences, but it had been admitted that the effect of political agitation was such that It must produce irritati o n and di scon t en t, an d the consequence was that they must necessarily lead to the commission of crime and out rage, and therefore the consequence of what the associations were do ing was, that though they did not originate, they encouraged criminal outrages in the country; The effect of the bill was not only to coun.. teract these acts which tended to deter witnesses from coming for ward, but it went directly to prevent nightly outrages. The hon. member for Clonmel objected that he had not mentioned the names of the writers of the letters. He could only say that he trusted the house would give him credit for having read 7enutrie letters, and that the effect of mentioning the names of the writers would be to eipose them to injury. Mr. GRATTAN said that he would have consented to grant ministers the power of making domiciliary visits, and the powers of the Insur rection Act, but he would not go so far as this bill. The hon, mem, her for Dublin might be a dictator, he did not know any thing about that •, he had never dictated to him; but if they were to put down one dictator, let them not legalise another. After some conversation the order of the day for the second reading of the bill was then read and fixed for Monday. Mr. SUEIL gave notice, that on the 21st of March he would submit a resolution respecting tithes. Sir J. GRAHAM gave notice, that on Wednesday next he would bring forward the navy estimates. The house then, at a quarter to 1 o'clock, adjourned to Monday. By a parliamentary return, it appears that the costs of the prosecution of Dennis Collins, the crazy old pensioner, who threw a stone at the King, at Ascot races, amounted to 087 its. Id., of which sum £216 19s, were paid to counsel. VACCINE BOARD. Mr. WARBURTON moved for a select committee to inquire into the expediency of continuing the Vaccine Board. Mr. llw►,Foan objected to abruptly breaking up the present board. The motion was agreed to, and the committee appointed. DISTRIBUTION OF THE FORCES. Mr. HumE rose to ask the house to order some information of con siderable importance. Our army estimates were for 90,000 troops. Now he wished to know in what manner they were distributed, in order to judge of the practicability of reducing them. hey were scattered over our possessions, and he did not see why a detailed account should not be laid before the house. The hon. member then moved for returns of the Ilistribution of the regu lar military ftirce in 1833, in England, Scotland, Ireland, and the Colonies. distinguishing the old from the new Colonies. Lord ALTHORP hoped the house would do him the justice to give him credit for a readiness to give information whenever it could be done with security to the public service. With regard to the motion of the hon. gentleman, it had been made in iBl9 and acceded to, and likewise last year. In the interval, how ever, such information had never been laid before the house, nor, he believed, prior to 1819. Although, therefore, there were precedents for the motion of the honourable member, it had not been the ordinary custom; and it might be, on some occasions, very undesirable to give public notice of the distribution of our force. It would be extremely inconvenient if it were the habit and Practice of the house to call for this information ; for if that were the case, it might be very difficult for the government to resist giving it when it might be dangerous to do so. For this reason, it might be objectionable to accede to the motion in the present session (though this, he admitted, was a trifling objec tion;) but in addition to the objection of making it the perma nent practice of the house, he stated on his responsibility as a minister, that there were circumstances which rendered it in convenient to the public service to state the direct distribution of our force, and therefore he was bound to object to the motion of the hon. member. (Hear.) Colonel DAVIES Observed, that when he saw the motion on the paper, he never supposed there could possibly be an objec tion to it: We were in profound peace, there was no danger of any of our foreign possessions being attacked, (hear,) and if there was, that was a poor excuse to the House of Commons. If foreign powers wished to know the force of any of our garri sons, they could ascertain it in spite of all our precautions. He wished to know why the information could not be given. Sir J. lionnousx said, there was sufficient information before the house already for all purposes of argument on the estimates. The house would never require an account of the distribution of the army abroad, which should be left to the discretion of Government. (Hear.) With colonies spread all over the globe, in the East Indies, and in the West Indies, and in all parts of the world, would it not be the grossest imprudence to call upon the Government to tell what number of regi ments were placed in the different parts ? It would be doing what the House of Commons ought not, could not do,—exposing this informa tion to the eyes of those whose interest it might he to take advantage of the information. Let it be remembered it was not to the hon. mem ber, nor to the• Parliament only, for he should be ready to communi cate it to the house, but it would be told to all the world in what part of the globe our force was distributed. (Hear.) After some observations from Mr. O'Connell, Mr. Wynn, Mr. Bol ling, Mr. Shia, Colonel Torrens, and Captain Hondas ; Mr. Hume was heard in reply ; when the committee divided, the numbers were : • For the motion Against it 201 Majority 178 TAXATION. On the question that the report of the committee of ways and means he brought up. Mr. Co nutty!. said that he had intended to submit to the house the resolutions which he before proposed relative to the stamp duties, which resolutions proved that the landholders, nobility, and clergy, had imposed taxes to the amount of £8,000,000 upon the poor, from which they themselves escaped almost entirely ; but it had occurred to him, and he had mentioned the matter to the noble lord, that he had better postpone the subject until the great question with respect to Ireland should he finally settled. He took the opportunity of stating this lest it might be supposed that he had abandoned the idea of bringing it forward. Mr. S. Rica next addressed the house, apparently in a somewhat excited state, and said that the hon. member had postponed his motion in a manner which would give rise to an argument, and sugge t an inference. (A laugh.) Ile denied the inference and disputed the argument, and he would tell the hon. member that all he desired was a clear stage and no favour to dispute every point which the hon. member had advanced. (Hear.) Ile denied that there had been on the part of the Parliament a disposition to oppress the poor and farm:4' the rich, though it might answer the hon. member's object to say so. (Hear, hear.) He would meet the hon. member,—he would cope with him,—he would stand foot to foot, and his motto_should be " God protect the right." (Great laughter.) There was no position in the book of fallacies which the hon. member had availed - himself of his privilege of parliament to print at the public expense, in order to t