The Sun. — London, England, 1847-05-01 00:00:00

TNE\irSl7lq, I.OI.VDON, 9 IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT, - sionerie with reference co the inquiry into the Andover HOUSE OF LORDS, Apr4l3o. f Union, those proceedings appear to have been irregular The LORD CetestecnnLon took his seat on the Wool- aid arbitrary, especially in respect to the dismissal of' sack at Five o'clock. Mr. Day and Mr. Parker. It was now eight months MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS. since that report was laid upon the table of the House, Messengers from the Commons brought up several and still the same Poor-law Commissioners remained in Bills. full power, inflicting the same cruelties on the poor of POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. the country generally as those they inflicted upon the Lord STANLEY hoped the Government would g i ve i poor in the Andover Union. Her Majesty's Government their attention to the system of rating under this Bill, had screened these Commissioners eight mouths, and for he feared that the effect, of the present clause would they were now a ttempting . to screen them still farther. be to give the power tote's> tenant, when rated on a Th e notice had been a long time on the paper of the merely net sum, of charging half poundage on the gross House, and yet the Go ver n men t ha d not introduced the B amount. These difficulti es arose f rom t h e i r interfering Bill. It had been put on the list last night, when the o between the landlord an d tenant to esta bli s h separate Ri g ht Honourable Baronet knew that it could n t Interests, which he th oug h t oug h t to b e l e f t a l one . be discussed It had also been postponed; till next The Marquis of WESTMEATH said it was his in- Monday, when there were four or five other mo tentiou to move an amen d men t on t hi s Bill. The object ti o ns which had precedence. If the G overnment of it was to facilit a t e proceedings in the master's office. desired the Bill to go forward, why n o t h ave He had thrown ou t a proposal for the consideration of fixed it for Friday night, when there were no ot h er the Noble and L earne d Lord on the Woolsack, that he motions on the paper? He wanted a pledge from the should prepare a clause to allow of viva voce evidence Government that they would fi x a n i g h t o f t h e i rs f or instead of by affidavit. the discussion of the questio n , g i v i ng f a i r not i ce to t h e ed. oppone nts of the New Poor-law t o b e p resent . U n l ess After a desultory conversation the subject dr o pp GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCA TION. they d id so, he weuld himself bring the conduct of the The Bishop of OXFORD presented a petition from P oor-law Commissioners und er th e cons id erat i on o f t h e Banbury, in Oxfordshire, in f avo ur of the Government H plan of education, Sir G. GREY said, th a t w h en h e gave no ti ce o f hi s POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. intention of introd uc i ng th e Bill h o h a d no ilium that in Committee on tion of taki ng th e d iscuss i on on it th en , b u t to Lord DESART gave notice , this Bill, it was his intention to move some amendments make a statement of its provisions, and fix a on the second clause, relating to the power given to the night when the whole discussion could be taken. poor-law guardians to hire or to build houses for the r e - He had fully expected that time would have been allowed eeptiors of the able-bodied poor; and also regu l a ti ng t h e for the statement last night, but the lateness of the dis relief to be afforded to such persons. elusion which had arisen prevented him doing so. He REPRESENTATIVE PEERS OF SCOTLAND. had postponed the Bill, therefore, till Monday next, the The Earl of EGLINTON rose t o move t h a t a earliest Government day, in the hope that after the Select Committee be appointed to take into consid e r s . I Factory Bill was disposed of there would be time tion the existing laws and regulations which relate to enough for the statement which he had to make. the elections of the representative Peers of Scotland, to After he had made his statement, and the Bill was in consider what steps should be taken to prevent persons troduced, he would name day for the second reading, from voting at such elections who are not entitled to do when the discussion would be taken. so, and to report upon the proceedings which took place RAILWAYS, PIERS, AND HARBOURS (IRE at the election of Lord Gray, on the 17th of March last. LAND) BILL. He said he regretted that the duty had devolved Oa the motion that the order of the day for the House upon him to bring this important subject before their going into Committee on the Railways, Harbours, Piers, Lordships ; and that it had not fallen into other &c. (Ireland) Bill being read, hands. It might not be necessary to remind their Mr. ROEBUCK rose reluctantly to call the attention Lordships that by the terms of the Act of of the House while he stated the reasons why he was Union sixteen was the number of representative about to propose an amendment to the proposition of the Peers to be seat to the House of Lords, and to be Government. The subject was now fairly before them, elected out of the whole number of Scotch Peers. In and he would state the grounds why he objected. 1703 certain proceedings took place, upon which What was it the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Ex were founded the following forms at any election chequer proposed to them to do ? He asked them to go of a representative Peer. The Peers of Scotland into Committee of Supply, for the purpose of doing were assembled by proclamation. After the commission that, which in the early part .•f the session, he and those had been read by the Lord Clerk Registrar, the names who voted with him told the House, i n the strongest Hedegree on the union roll were called over, and all who a nswered manner, was in the hig h e st interests of the country. would fee l i nimical to the voted and gave in their proxies. But it must b e evident it necessary to to the House some of the words of the Right that the clerk had no means of testing claims, and r il e ln d eurable Baronet, although it w as not his therefore any vote tendered under a title on the union d Kith h en t ti h o i n s habit to have recourse to this mo de. argu medstantnoes roll by a person, though he may have no right to du so, call l nec th te e must be recorded. A resolution was passed, restrict- w ent. Now h c o ircumstances the House the • d grandsons Now to ing the power to use proxies to the sons an . In question of railways in Ireland. It ' of Peers. but that was not sufficiently stringent. might be in the recollectionof 1032 a Committee was appointed on the subject, and re-that House, that in the corn - Iby it which were referred to a Commit- mencement of the session the Noble Lord opposite solutions passe , (Lord G. Bentin 'lt • tee of Privileges, but the subject dropped out of memory. ) introduced into the House a measure r He would not cite any i ns t a nces 0 1 t hi s a b use , lam . go :2 th e purpose of esta bl is hi ng rai l ways i n Ire l and. into the subject at any l e ngth, b u t wou ld conc l u d e by Now, at that time the situation of the country was moving that a Select Committee be appointed to in- different to what it was at the present time. quire into the laws and regulations relating to the elec- Than there was no great pressure in the tion of Scottish Peers for the House of Lords, and into money market; the commerce of the country was in as the proceeding that took place on the election of Lord flourishing a state as it was usually in at that period of Grey on the 17th of March last. the year. The Noble Lord's Bill, after embracing a Lord BROUGHAM said that the gentleman to general view of the state of the country. proposed to ask whose vote objection was taken had no means to eats- from this country a loan of 16,000,0001. ; but he pro blish his title unless it was called in question. He had posed to ask this at different times, and the sum—if he no objection however, to the appointment cf the Coal- recollected rightly—which was proposed to be raised mittee. in the first year was 4,000,000/. Now at Lord CAMPBELL would take leave to add a single that time the description which he (Mr. Roe word to what had been already said on this subject. A buck) had given of the state of the country was case had come to his knowledge to prove the de- correct. There might be no great prosperity, but there fective state of the law which proved his position. was no alarm, and there would have been no difficulty in An individual was told that he was entitled -to a peearge raising the sum required by the Noble Lord. Now, at and he immediately abandoned his habits of industry, that time what was the lan g ua g e used b y the Ri g ht and his family were brought to utter ruin. Another Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer? After the case had also come under his observation. enormous sums of money which had been lately granted The LORD CHANCELLOR then put the motion, to Ireland, the Right Hon. Gentleman carne down and which was agreed to ; and the Peers to comprise the asked the House to grant a sum of 620,000/. for the Committee were nominated, and next Monday, at two purpose of assisting railways in Ireland. But let them o'clock, fixed for the meeting of the Committee. look at the language of the Right lion. Gentleman! Mr. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid upon the table Roebuck had opened the book, when he was inter• of the House various returns, by order of her Majesty. rupted by Several Bills were then forwarded a stage, and the The SPEAKER, who intimated that the lion. House adjourned at twenty minutes past six o'clock. Member could not quote from a speech made on the debate on the present measure. Mr. ROEBUCK did not wish to quote anything that was not pertinent to the present question, and it he was desirous of giving the words, it was only from the fear that his memory might not serve to give the precise mean ing of the Right Hon. Gentleman, whose opinions he was desirous of giving to the House, for to misrepresent him no part of his intention. Now, he thought that an argument might be used of this nature, and one which was particularly applicable to the present question— (Such was the import of the Right Hon. Gentleman's expressions)—that, although the sum of four millions only was demanded at present, yet eventually the sum of 16,000,0001. would be required, and that the plan would impose upon the Government a task which he, in his character of Chancellor of the Exchequer, could not undertake. The expressions of the Noble Lord at the ad of the Treasury were precisely to the same effect. He said, further, that if the railroads were in such a state of prosperity as the Noble Lord had asserted them to be in that country—and he instanced the Great Western Railway of Ireland—they did not need that as sistance for which he sought, and they should not give the money. Both the Right Hon. Gentleman and the Noble Lord went further than this, for they said that if they went into the market to borrow the money, they would go unfairly armed, and affirmed that even it the plan was to be adopted it would nut give that amount of employment which the Noble Lord the Mem ber for Lynn affirmed that it would give. For this they cited the words of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, and, if he recollected right, the Right Hon. Baronet the late Secretary for the Home Depart ment had also stated that such would be the case. They greunded their objection chiefly on the extent of the measure which the Noble Lord had brought forward, but for his part, in his opinion, that was the best recom mendation of the plan. He did not say that it was a wise plan ; but it was at least a bold and a comprehen sive plan—one calculated to give extensive employ ment to the poor population of Ireland. Since the Noble Lord's proposal was before the Houas, change in a most important and vital particular was pro duced—some people contended—by the Government themselves. At the time the Noble Lord made his proposal there was no alarm in the money market. It was only apprehended. But what was the situation of the commercial interest at the time this measure is brought forward? Was it not notorious that the Noble Lord at the head of the Go• verument was daily in communication with the great commercial interests of Liverpool, Glasgow, and Lon don ? Had not every means been taken to restore con tidence, but without success ? Were net the best possible bills the mercantile world could produce of no avail on account of enormous discounts charged for cash And yet, in this deplorable state of things the Right lion. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was about to throw another anditional burden upon the Bank, and by what arguments was this proposal supported? Why, by precisely the same as those by which the Noble Lord had successfully resisted a similar proposal a few weeks a go. There was nothing in this measure to distinguish it from the one introduced by the Noble Lord a short time ago, except the greeter danger which they would now incur in carrying out its principles ; and then, again, these companies would be unable to borrow money at a rate of interest which they would be able to pay. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer opposed the measure of the N. ble Lord, on the ground that the Government should net become money-lenders. But were not the circumstances now the same as they' were at the time that measure was introduced ? And what a flaming sword was wielded against it by the Hon. Gentleman, who said that it would not employ the weak and disabled but the able-bodied. Ho- said, "We want relief for the poor and the aged, for women and children, as well as for the able-bodied." Those were the parties, he said, whom they could not benefit by such means as those which the Noble Lord sought. It was also urged by everybody who spoke on the same side as he (fir. Roebuck) did, that the state of the country at the time could not have been assisted by such a pro position. The Government said they had left nothing undone to provide employment for the indigent poor ; bet, entertaining that argument, how could tbf y now come forward with this extraordinary measure ? Was there ever so pitiful an attempt ? He could not call it an endeavour, for no phrase in the English language could supply him with a word which coul I express hie feelings, without trespassing on the courtesies of the House, ant which would adequately enable him to describe the plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman The Government proposed to lend 620,000/. to Ireland, after they had ex pended something like 10,000,0001, and when they had already deranged, not only the social condition of Ireland, but the social andmonetary system of England, by their unwise proceedings. But be assured the people would not any longer suffer such proceedings. When they saw hundreds of persons swept away, families destoyed, situations well and honeurablyfilled up annihilated, and the whole mercantile world in a commotion, and, in the words of a French orator, with " hideous bankruptcy knocking at their doors," were they to see the Chancellor of the Exchequer come to the House with a smiling face again to demand money—money ?—(Hear.), It might be a pitiful sum compared with their previous lavish expen diture, but the people would not bear it. He appealed to every gentleman in the Muse —if they wished to consult consistency, which was not a matter of much ' i s m u p p o o r r ta t nc h e . , it would seem, at the present period—to in his present amendment. He would ask the eo m b I ast the Bill eiro ers who voted in the majority Carrg a r of the Noble Lord opposite to join him day be theh ead ol . ution—that the other orders of the majority, of thi s th o ug ht 6eitem th e y wou °d hear no more cellor w ou ld get —( a lie lr , hear.) The Chan to proceed further with it'"Y signifi cant hi nt not the people of E ng l and ~,,,o ult lear• hear) Ile f e lt th at d jesty's Ministers ; they woul r d et l i o d a l esson to her Ma schemes like these were day after day rather a ngry, that founded on no principle, and with oanYt brought corn, to the country, placed upon the t a bl e eevfen h an appeal rat her to occupy their time than anything tele& House, wou ld move that the other orders of the day be He now read.—(Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he would not dispute the abstract right of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to take the course which he had thought proper to take upon the present occasion, but he believed it to be an irregular one, and one which would in future set a bad HOUSE OF COMMONS. April 30. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. LORD'' ANIENDNIENTS. The Lords' amendments to the Cheltenham Water works Bill were agreed to. REPORTS. The reports on the following Bills were brought up and agreed to, and the Bills ordered to be engrossed:— Caledonian Railway (Blanches from the Clydesdale Junction Hallway to the Douglas and Lesmahagow, Mineral Fields and to Strathaven). Caledonian Railway (Branches to Wilsontown, to Fauld house, and to Biggar and Broughton). Caledonian Railway (Extension of Motherwell Branch of Clydesdale Junction Railway, to Auchinheath Mineral Field, with Branches to the Wishaw, and Coltness Railway, Canderside and Hamilton). Herne Bay and Canterbury Junction Railway. South-Eastern Railway (Croydo•• and Bromley Branches). South-Eastern Railway (Maid.tone to Chart). South-Eastern Railway (Mid-Kent and Direct Tun bridge). South-Eastern Railway (North Kent Line). South-Eastern Railway (Strood to Maidstone). Mr. R. lIODGSON, on the bringing up the reports from the Committee on group No. 1, as to the South- Eastern Ralway Bills, moved that the minutes of the Committee be printed with the reports.—Agreed to. On the motion of Mr. GREEN E, it was ordered that the Leeds Waterworks (No. 2) Bill be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, who shall report, whether any other s anding orders apply to this Bill than those which were proved to have been complied with before the Examiner upon the petition for leave to bring in the Leeds ,Vaterworks Bill ; and that the Examiner have leave to sit and p , oceed neon Tuesday next. THIRD READINGS. The following Bills were read a third time and passed : London and South-Western Railway (Widening, &c.) Shrewsbury and Birmingham Railway. IRISH DISTRESS. Mr. HAMlLT6i4presfnted a petition from Dublin, signed by 4,976 persons a;ainst the measure adopted by the Government for supplying food to the distressed LUNATIC ASYLUMS. M. T. DITNCOMBE presented a petition from the Society for the Protection of Lunatics, praying for an alteration in the law relating to lunatic asylums. Mr. HUME presented a petition from a kirk session in Scotland, against clauses in the Marriages Registra tion (Scotland) Bill. JUVENILE OFFENDERS BILL. _ Sir I). LE MARCH NT presented a petition from Woreeeter in favour of the Juvenile Offenders Bill. VESSELS OF WAR. Sir C. NAPIER gave notice that, on Monday next, he 4e0u!.3 move for copies of the log-books of the Powerful, nedney, Revenge, Cambridge, Vanguard, and GangeA, from the Ist to the 7th December, 1840. Mr. HU ME gave notice that, on Monday, he would move for e-opies of reports of master-shipwrights on cer tain vessels. ADMINISTRATION OF PUBLIC JUSTICE. Mr. B. ESCOTT said that he would wish to ask a question of the Right Honourable Gentleman the Secre tary for the Home Department ; it reated to a para. graph which appeared in the Times newspaper, copied from the Hampshire independent. It was stated that the late Recorder for Winchester had resivied previous to the Easter session, and that no recorder was appointed in his stead, in consequence of which the trials of the pri soners were postponed indefinitely. lie had no know ledge of the subject but that which he had gathered from the Times, and he was anxious to know whether a recorder had been appointed, and if not whether he had any means to remedy the injustice which must accrue by such delay? Sir GEORGE GREY said that he also had seen the paragraph alluded to in the daily papers. The sessions commenced on Easter Miaulay, and the resignation was received at a late hour on the 31st of March; su that there was no time to appoint a successor. He had not been ia.rmed that any inconvenience had taken place; but he would make inquiry respecting the matter. FACTORY BILL. _ _ An HoN. ME:4IIIEa said he would wish to ask the Secretary fir the Home Department whether it was hi:, intention to introduce any amendments on the Factory Bill, as had been sugg ested b y the factory inspectors. The first of those sugg estions was with reference to the education of children an d the granting of certificates; the second was with reference to the silk-mills, and the third was the necessity of guarding the mac hiner y in mills. The Hon. G e ntl e m a n had said nothing respecting the Acte!' relating t o the s ilk mills ; and with regard to th e two brin points he said that it was his intention to g forward some Bill in the course of the present session. He thought it extremely important that all three points s h ould parties seemed t o be be settled together ; and as all the question should haeg reed that a p r i va t e se t t l emen t of come to, he was d es i rous that th e Right Hon. Gentleman should state what course he in tended to pursue. Sir G. GREY said th a t with regard to th e t wo po i nts of which the Hon. Member hadethmade mention, he had parties who were had some communication with to the education of principally interested. With regard of effecting . the law. the children in print works, there w all that was desired without any alteration of With regard to the casing of machinery in of culties had arisen with regard to it, and he n dTV is ' ditri that it was advisable or necessary that the lan,:t'h"v be altered in that respect. There were large powers vested in the inspectors, and before . any steps were taken s it would be advisable that their report should be re- eeived. TILE POOR-LAW COMMISSIONERS. On the motion that the order of the day fur the House going into Committee on the Railways, Piers, and Har bours (Ireland) Bill, be read, Mr. FERRAND said that he was anxious to trespass on the attention of the House for a very few moments, in order to make one or two remarks upon the extraor dinary conduct of her Majesty's Government with regard to the new Poor-law Commissioners. It was now nosey four months since the c3mmencement of the present session, and her Majesty's Government had not Introduced into that House the new Poor-law which they informed the House they would in this session bring under its notice. On the 20th of August 1846, a Committee of that House reported, in the fol lowing language, their opinion as to the conduct of the Poor-law Commissioners :—They stated that, upon a tosview of the proceedings of the Poor-law Commis precedent for others to follow. He believed that the more correct course would have been to go into Com • mittee, when it would have been his duty to make a statement as soon as the Speaker left the chair with re ference to this grant. He hoped that the House would agree to go at once into Com mittee--(Hear, hear)—and then, in accordance with the forms which had been established in that House, he shoq.ld•ttiail himself of that opportunity of making such a Statement as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would be well abie to answer. At present he declined saying anything further until the House had resolved itself into Committee. The gallery was then cleared for a division, when the . House divided, and there appeared — For the amendment l4 Against it Majority —lB9 The amendment was consequently negatived. On our re-admission to the gallery, we found Mr. HUME speaking, who said that the Hon. Gen tleman had stated that, in his opinion, it was wise to make this grant; in his (Mr. Hume's) opinion, it was not; but the proper time to make this amendment would have been when the motion was put from the Chair for going into Committee. But it should be recollected, that those who voted for going into Committee voted for giving money for making reilroads.—(Cries of " No, no.") Yes, but he asserted that it was, for the House had decided upon going into Committee, and that Com mittee was for the purpose of giving money to rail. roads—(Repeated cries ut " No, no")—and those who voted for going into Committee who did not vote for giving money to railroads, would have placed them selves in a state of stultification.—(llerisive cheers.) The House then went into Committee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that in bringing this matter before the House before they went further in the debate, he thought it would be necessary to make a statement of what the case actually was. It was true that he had made that statement the other night, but it was at so late an hour that it might not possibly have been quite understood. There were two distinct subjects on this question, yet though dis tinct of such a nature as to be connected with each other. The real question before the Committee was, as to whether the House should grant specified sums to the Commissioners of Public Works to be expended in the formation of railroads in Ireland. At an early hour the other morning he had an opportunity of making a state ment on this subject, not at any great length it was true, but sufficient to remove the apprehensions under which several Hon. Gentlemen laboured, with respect to the conduct and proceedings of Government. He be lieved the statement he ma :e was correct, as far as it related to the currency. He stated then, and he must state now, that the present depression was in no degree owing to the operation of the Banking Act; but it arose from other causes. Hon. Gentlemen must have observed from the public papers, that the state of the Bank had improved during the last week. On the 24th of April, the balance sheet of the Bank presented a considerable improvement over that of the 17th. It showed that the liabilities were diminished, while the means of meeting the liabilities had increased. They had, therefore, reason to be more satisfied of the groundlessness of the fears to which he had alluded there three days ago. He had been in communication with the Governor of the Bank of England that morning, and was happy to say that its condaion was very much improved—(Hear)—and from a feeling of this improvement the Bank of Eng land has been enabled within the last, week, on two se parate days, to give increased facilities to the money market—(Hear, hear)—and he was happy also to be nabled to say, with respect to the statement made a row days ago, to the effect that the condition of the money market caused great distress in the north of England, that the condition of those portions of the north had been improved in consequence of those increased facilities.—(Hear, hear.) It appeared from the state ments which he had heard that more bank notes were circulated, and more bills discounted, than those imagined who entertained the misapprehension which he had contradicted ; and it appeared that even if the pressure had been greater than it was, it could have safely been borne.—(Cheers.) He would not allude to the increased price of stocks, as this might have been caused by circumstances, which could not have been foreseen—that was a circumstance on which no one could have calculated, and, therefore, he did not take it into ac count. Exchanges were improving, and the last news from America was of an important character. He thought it right to say thus much, in order that the apprehension that had been created might be removed.—(hear.) He would now turn to the plan of the Government, and at the outset he wished to correct a statement which had gone abroad, that the Government intended to raise an additional loan, for the purpose of making the advances they proposed. In reply to the Bill of the Noble Lord, he stated that the Government were about to take mea sures to relieve the distr. s= in Ireland, by providing em ployment for the peel le, by employing them upon the relief works. He stated when he proposed these mea sures, that it was the desire of the Government to foster private enterprise in the employment of the people, and he stated that for this purpose two Bills would he intro duced, one of which had since received the sanction of the House ; it was called the Improvement of Landed Pro perty Bill, fur the purposes of which 1,060,000/. was proposed to be advanced by the Government. For the other Bill, the reclamation of waste lands, they proposed to vote another 1,000,0001.. Now he stated further, when he proposed to take this loan of 5i,000,000/., that a portion of that sum was to be applied for the advancement of these Bills, which would la, afterwards repaid, at d, therefore, that so much of the sum should be subtracted from the whole amount. Hav ing stated so much he was at a loss to undersrand upon what foundations it was urged that additional Exchequer Bills were about to be issued by him. In the course of discussion which had taken place on these two measures it was generally agreed that by far the most important of them, was that fur the . improvement of landed property in Ireland. So the sum increased from 1,000.0001. to 1,151,0001. But in the course of this discussion it was found that a very great difference of opinion existed respecting the advantages to be derived from the Waste Lands Bill, as it was originally proposed to bs a compulsory mea sure. After considerable deliberation, it was determined to abandon the compulsory nature of the Bill, although, when they did so, they were aware that they were abandoning a great portion of the Bill. The measure for the reclamation of waste lands had been found ex tremely difficult, and therefore the Government had thought it the best course to abandon the measure, as far as the present session was concerned. With regarl to the relief works, he was happy to state that a great re duction had recently taken place in the expenditure, and the number of parties employed. In March lass, there were 734,000 persons employed. Before the end of March they had been reduced 20 percent. This left the number 579,000. A further reduction had since taken place, at el by the Ist of May he expected that the num ber would be reduced to 280,000. Thus, while on the beginning of March the number was 734,000, there would be on the 3,1 of May 280,000. Arid while this great re du tion had taken place, he was happy to say that very little had been advanced to assist in the pay ment of wages in other respects than on these works. The accounts which had been just received from Ireland, showed that a much larger amount of land was sown than before ; and wheat, both spring as well green crop. And at the same time, in a great part of the south and the southwest of Ireland, the ordinary quantity of potatoes had already been planted.—(Hear, p h fwol e eeo a rnd r et .. y ) Nay, n o t on ly was i t f oun d t h at there were would actually in o rr f p haefrstharoet appearing oriietestf time eo r rbk t es h ,r e i purposesne(wimuictahendy places of s a e s e d, butan article they oyf somebut few x the peopleec exceptions, p w t i o o u n ld still be engaged on unfinished works or on important public works that would yet be found necessary to be constructed. With respect to that part of the country which had been under the operation of the public works, he had to inform the House that many of the roads made, especially in the wilder parts of the country, were in the highest degree beneficial. That benefit also would be telt in a higher degree in the time coming, and the great line of railway to which they resolved to advance the larger portion of the loan was, as the House knew, the great trunk which united the west and south of Ireland, and Dublin with Limerick and Cork. During the last year this company had applied to the Treasury I . )r the loan of 500,000/. to complete their line, but the Treasury, in the then circumstances of the country, and at the rate of interest which was charged, did not feel itself justified in granting this application ; but convinced of the great importance of the line, they recommended that the Loan Commis sioners should advance 250,000/. The Great Southern and Western Company had not seen fit to accept that sum, and for that year, therefore, the matter was abandoned. On application being made to the Treasury, the Government desired the public works Loan Commissioners to decide upon the application, and they reported favourably of the securities offered by the company, anti stated that if they had the funds at their own disposal they wo u ld not have the slightest objection to advance the money themselves. The Right Him. Baronet then proceeded to read the re port of the Public Works Loan Commissioners upon theth e subject. The whole line is to be 200 miles in length, an d of these 200 miles there are already 5 traffic upon the 56 m'les being so great as to allow the ordinary per centage for the workiug of the line, and to pay a sufficient rate of inheres! in addition to affird an ample security for the whole advance.—(Hear, hear). The reason why the company made the first application Ives because the rate of interest in the money market was at the present so high. They had called up every call they were empowered to make by Act of Parliament, and some of the calls had even been paid in anticipation. They hoped by the assistance of the Government to be enabled to open the line to Limerick, to Melton, and to Cork, within two years, being a distance of about 115 miles. The whole sum to be advanced by the Government, and the calls to be paid up, would be expended in the earthworks of the line, and in the employment of labour by this mean-, or equal to double the amount advanced by the Government, would thus be expeniled in labour in Ireland, it being expressly stipulated that for every 100,0001. advanced by the Government, 100,000/. would be raised by the company itself. The sum of 83.000 L ss as also proposed for the Waterford and Kilkenny Railway, and the sum of 36,000/. for the Dublin and Drogheda Railway. In the last session of Parliament a sum of 50,000/. was voted for the purpose of promoting useful works in Ire land, on condition that those in Ireland who applied for an advance under the Bill would advance one-half--that is to say, a sum equal in amount to the sum which they required. At that time there were not any applications , would go further m rie ad d e o un ut b te e r ( m s s :3; c:f the Bill, but about three weeks :(4)o,oa.net.ipplieation was made for an advance from the sum t for the purp ose a improving; upper part of the Shan part of Roscommr,ri 10,0001., out Cif a 11, an improvement henav w i g h a i t e i .h o , n i o f the d e greatest advientage to the upper large size r-n balance a 1. u a S t io h e g t ee l n i a e' or b r S f y y h a p 4o n e ou n r : t o o n i ih t t . i h ,a n a t g ri no s o a t bt t e j e p r o n r tf e e s r e s n o t The sum applied was - skt TURnAV EVENTNG. MAY l. 447. urn orig inelly voted, which had not as yet been di sense of. They had found that none of the works were so ad- vantageous ai those which came under the head of fishery, piers, and harbours, for they not oely employed the people, but they directly increased the supply of food. As nothing, therefore, in the nature of public works has to en found so directly beneficial as the reot.ey • expended under this head, they proposed to give another advance for that , purpo'se.—(llFir.' liar.) The) proposed to advant4 to the Upper Shannon improve ment 10,0001. There would then remain a sum of 40,0001. at the disposal of the House, and it was his opinion that one of the most desirable means of employing . that money was in the encouragement of the fisheries in Ireland. The whole it was no w p ro p o sed hhould be of fthis directed bum to f the 4 fi o ,h , piers, a n d h ar b ours o f I re l an d. Such was the subject of the second resolution which he had to propose: — " That the C omm i ss i one r s o f h er oo e o r O te l. , s, Majesty's Treasury be authorised to direct advances to be made, out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, to the Commis sioners for the issue of loans for public works and fisheries, &c., to an amount not exceeding 620,000/. in the whole, to be by them advanced towards defraying the expense of making the following railways in Ireland, viz.:—The Great Southern and Western Railway, the Waterford and Kilkenny Railway, and the Dublin and Drogheda Railway. And that a sum of 40,0001. should be divided for the purpose of promoting fisheries, piers, and harbours in Ireland." The resolution was then put from the chair. Mr. GOLTLBURN was surprised to hear the Chan cellor of the Exchequer state that it was the intention of the Government to withdraw the funds which had been voted for the purpose of reclaiming the waste lands of Ireland. He was happy to hear that the panic in the money market had subsided, and that the Bank was now enabled to afford every necessary accommodation. Li„ quite agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet, the Chancel lor of the Exchequer, that it was highly desirable that the Bank should act with prudence. lie thought that not only the Bank, but also the House was called upon to act with prudence. And it was because he thought so, that he felt it necessary to make a few remarks on the resolution submitted to the House, in order that the House might, by being forewarned, be also forearmed.— (Hear, hear.) - The Right Hon. Baronet had said that the sum of 625,0002, to be advanced to three railway companies in Ireland would be advanced out of the general fund raised by loan for the general relief of the distress of Ireland. He thought if such a course were to be adopted great inconvenience would result. There was nothing that the House should guard more against than an augmentation of the charges upon the Consolidated Fund, because the effect of those charges would be nececsarily to lower the balances in the Ex chequer, and increase in the same proportion the amount of the quarterly deficiency bills ; and the Bank having to meet this increased demand upon it, would be unable to afford that assistance which was needed for the interests of the general trade and commerce of the country.— (Hear, hear.) There was also another point of diffi culty in making grants to these railways, which was, that having afforded assistance to these companies, how could the Government refuse similar assistance to others. These companies, it appeared, required to borrow 1,000,0001. of money, they would have to go into the market, and perhaps borrow it at the rate of S per cent., but the Government slipped in and said they would lend them half of that sum at 5 per cent.; the company were thus enabled to borrow its million at an average of 6i per cent., while a rival company, not having the assistance of tLe Government, would be compelled to pay the full 8 per cent. Besides, this company having succeeded in obtaining half of their money at 5 per cent., could afford to pay more than its rival company for the remaining half, which they might require; and they would thereby obtain an undue and unfair advantige over their com petitors. It appeared to him that great caution and prudence were necessary in measures of this kind, and unless great determination be shown by the Govern ment in refusing applicants for similar advances, the most serious evils would be certain to be the conse quence. He thought that, although the panic was over rated, and although it was true that the country was in a prosperous condition, yet he saw enough to induce him to call upon the Government to proceed with pru dence in future. The country was in a state, for which no antecedent period showed a parallel. One of the greatest calamities that ever happened, was now press ing upon the country, and not only on this country, but every other nation in Europe. Added to this, there was another matter which added to their difficul ties, and called upon them for extraordinary caution. There was the railway system, which greatly affected the capital of the country, and locked it up in that in vestment which for a considerable period made no re turn. There could be no doubt that the capital of last year's railway had not yet affected the floating capital of the country so much as would be felt in future. The scarcity of food, also increased the necessity of import, and greatly aggravated the difficulties under which the country was labouring. There was, besides, the defi ciency of the cotton crop, which should be added to the pressure from other sources on the energies of the country. It was, therefore, upon all these considerations, that he was induced to call upon the Government to proceed with great caution in dealing with the monetary affairs of the country. Already a large amount of money had been advanced to Ireland, and it he might calculate on the futur'-, the money which had been ad vanced would be insufficient to meet the exigencies of the case. The expenses of the country were increased. In January last, there was a balance in the Exchequer of nine millions; and now, in April, there were but live; and if this balance was to go on decreasing it would be necessary for the Government to draw upon the Bank, and so disable it from applying its capital to the accom modation of the commerce and trade of the country. He wished to explain that in pointing out these dangers his ofject was not to embarass the Government, but to in- culcate the necessity of timely prudence and the utmost caution.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. F. FRENCH saw no reason why money should ; not be giv ,, n to other railways, as well as the three which had been selected, provided sufficient security was given I for the loan. According to the Right on. Gentleman, there would not be more than 280,000 men employed on the public works in Ireland after the Ist May. With respect to the works on which the men had been em ployed, he understood it would take 3} millions to complete them. He denied the statement which had been made, that private labour absorbed those labourers who were dismissed from the public works. Tne middle class in Ireland were rapidly leaving the country, for the gentry were unable to give them employment. Ile would like to know if the expenses of the pesti lence which was now raging in Ireland, was included in the 8,000,0001. which had been stated as the money to be advanced ? The Hon. Gentleman then read a number of extract-, setting forth the great increase of fever in Ireland. In Sligo fever had extended to the main streets, and it had committed the most dreadful ravages in Fermanagh, Waterford, Dungarvan, Armagh, and Cork, where thirty-six bodies had been buried in one grave, end 320 euffios had been sold for the poor, in St. Nicholas parish, in a few days ; one hospital was filled constantly, four persons with surgeons' certificates having been obliged to be left at the door, and more presented ,themselves for admission in the morning. He hoped, however, that the money proposed to he advanced would not form a part of the loan of 8,000,0001. Mr. M. GORE was strongly in favour of the measure. Ireland had got mineral resources, which only required the aid of capital to develope, and as private interference had been discouraged, it was the bounden duty of the State to step forward and to afford a stimulus to the employment of the unemployed in profitable labour like railways. In England they had voted m..ney for the draining of the fens, and it was but right that such assistance should be extended to Ireland when so much good would be accomplished by so doing. Ireland was a great expense to this country. Fur instance, the keeping up of a large staff of soldiers and police, but what a vast sum of money would be saved it troops could be removed from place to place by railway. lie quoted the opii i on o f t h e Governor-General of India, to show that in India 60,0001. a year would be saved it troops could be conveyed by railway in India; and it this was practicable in India, how much more su would it be in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the argument that agricultural districts Ir , uld not defray the expense of constructing lines, he instanced the South ampton and Peterborough Railway, which traversed a purely agricultural district, as profitable speculati .n. He also quoted the opinion of Mr. Petri, the large con troctor, who had had great experience in the construction of railways, not only in this country, but in Franca and Belgium, to show that agricultural railways invariably turned out profitable ; end it was, therefore, not too much to expect that the resources of Ireland would be developed by railways in like manner. They would tend also to increase and render more valuable the excellent fisheries of Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman read an extract from a work by Mr. Macculloch. to show that fisheries were materially improved by railways; and also one of the letters of Mr. Foster, the Times Commissioner, in favour of the construction of piers and harbours for the promotion of fisheries. They would enable men to go easily out to sea, and, therefore, he thought they would do better by spending money in giving them those facilities, instead of spending money in feeding them in idleness, or at unprofitable tasks.— (Hear, h ear .) D r . R us h , t h e clergyman of Cadda r, i n the n e i g hb our h ood of Galway , strongly urged, in a letter, th e construct i on of p i ers a nd harbours, and the construction of cur i ng sta ti on s. The Government de served th e greatest praise fer the proposed construction of tho se cur i ng stations. Dr. Rush, by t he aid of aims benevolent p ersons, had been ena bl e d to send several men out to sea, an d the fish they had taken w as worth 8001., and it was eagerly bought up by persons about the place. 7 (tlear, hear.) therefore, it could not be said that the Irish were wanting in energy , an d were afraid to brav e t h e elements i n or d e r to obtain their living by sever e t o il.—(liestr, hear.) T he y onl y stood in need of the m eans to enable t h e m to work for their living. And there was nothing in the conditio n of Ireland which was worse th an ot h er countries at a former period. p For instance, Scotland an d W a l e s, had been at fo rmer periods in a most distr esse d state , so much so ant both y. ith life and property were laced in continual jeop ar Spencer was of Opinion in his day, that the evils of Ireland sprung from a want o f wise legistati on ; it was unfortunate th at such a leng thened period shou ld have elapsed with out a better and wiser sy stem having been adopted. H e l oo k e d h owe ver on the present measures as a step i n th e ri g ht direction , a nd it was for this, and the other r easons w hich he had urg ed, that he would vote for th e measure o f her Majesty's Govern ment. He hoped to see the day when Ireland would be a blessing and a sa f eguar d to E ng land, and when they should reap a rich h arvest f or t h e steps which they wer e then about to tak e . Mr. W. COLLETT sa id t h a t he did not regret not having been able t o a dd ress t h e [;oust' upon the peevious occasion, when the H ouse en t e red into a discussion on the principles of th e Bill, as his Noble Friend , the Member for Lyn n , h a d f u lly a rgued the question, and left nothing further to be advanced. The principal objection which was then urged against his Noble Friend, was the impossibility of securing the money to be lent; that, however, had been admitted by the Chanceiler of the Exchequer as easy of accomplishment; here, then, was the principal, and almost the only argument which was strongly urged againstlit annihilated. It had also been admitted that t-e Exchequer Loan. Commissioners could lend a sum of 20,0001., this had been denied on the former occasion. The Hon. Gentleman concluded, by saying he would support the Bill. Mr. CAYLEY, believing that the present was a statesmanlike measure, he could not withhold his sup port from the Government measure. From the turn which the debate had taken, it appeared to him the com mercial state of the country was the roal question which they were now debating, and whether the bank charter of 1844 had really answered its purpose—that purpose wa% threefold—first, that the Bank should maintain its credit untainted ; secondly, that its stability should he ensured ; and thirdly, that the country should not be exposed to this monetary fluctuation, which of late had occasioned so much alarm. lie asked the country what had been the state of the banking department of the Bank of England. He feared that it was not in so flourishing a state as it was thought. Ruinous fluctuations took place in trade, and instead of improving, the banking department became worse. No doubt the framers of the Act would be very glad to throw aspersions upon the Bank of England, and he con fessed that he thought his Right Hon. Friend had not dealt fairly with them on the subject. His Right Hon. Friend said that the alarm which was felt in the country was unnecessary. and that there was plenty of money in the country. He thought that the causes of the depres sion which existed in the country had not been fairly appreciated. The country had seen at a critical moment that the Bank was compelled to go into the market to supply the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and they naturally became alarmed at the circumstance. Immediately. succeeding that, when the Bank refused all discount, was not that sufficient to create alarm? What was the consequence? Every body who had a note determined to keep that note. Out of what was the four millions which had been taken, supplied? Was it out of the notes of the public or the notes of reserve ? It was evident, that if the till of the Bank was supplied out of the notes of reserve, that the reserve itself must be shaken. The Bank never before refused discount, and was not that sufficient to shake the confidence of the mercantile interest in the country? and that he believed to be the cause of the panic Which had existed. If there were, as it was said, fourteen millions in reserve in the Bank of England, and only seven or eight millions in circulation, was it not a bad system which, by keeping so much money idle should checl the individualoperations of the country. His Right Hon. Friend blamed the Bank for this. Was it only upon the Bank that this evil should be charged ? The system was one which. like Midas, in the midst of gold, produced starvation. With every deference to his Right Hon Friend's superior information, it appeared to him that the Bank was not to blame, but that it had skilfully managed most difficult and complicated machi nery. In August 1846, the Bank had a maximum of bullion, and according to kis Right Hon. Friend, the Bank ought to have lowered the rate of discount. The Bank did so, and pushed out 21,000,0001., but in strict accordance with the system professed by his Right Hon. Friend, it ought to have pushed out 26,000,0001. The Bank did not do so, and acted most wisely in not going to that extent in sending out its money through the country. It had gone as far as it could in prudence with the system, but it exercised a very wise discretion in not going too far. What was the condi tion of the Bank of France, the state of trade at the time, and the state of the people ? The Bank, in all probability, prevented a very serious evil at the time. The question which they had to discuss was, which was right ? The Bank or the system. If the Bank had in 1846 pushed out more notes, the state of the country, instead of being sound at present, would have been the very reverse. In the spring of this year, when the sys tem called fur the Bank to apply the screw, the Bank acted upon a contrary principle, and again proved that its discretion was more, to be trusted to than the system which was to be pursued under the Act, He thought, after all these examples, that it was but fair to infer that it was the system which had failed, and not the Bank. In the present depression of all trade in the City—when East India Bills were, in some instances, undiscountable—or only discountable at 16 per cent., when the ordinary bills of commerce were virtually not to be discounted, and when all credit was suspended, the effects of this sound system were found, out, and if such were the effects of this sound system he could only say that the sooner they returned to the old and unsound system the better.—(Cheers.) After a few words from Mr. CHAPLIN, in support of the measure, _ Sir W. CLAY said that his Right Hon. Friend had stated that in September last the Bank ought to have pushed out its notes, and reduced its discount to two per cent. That would have been bad banking to force out money, and thus encourage careless spe._adation. His Right Hon. Friend had, however, defended the conduct of the Bank during the present year, when there was a drain of money and bullion, the Bank had not increased its rate of discount, so that as far as his Right Honourable Friend's defence of the Bank went it was of no value. In the year 1846 the imports were very great; showing a considerable excess over the importation of 1845. As far as the Custom House could afford any guide to the amount, the imports in 1845 were about 20,000.000/. ; while in 1846 they were 21,840,0001. The same was observable in the importation of the raw material of our manufac tures in the same year; fur while articles of food had greatly increased, the articles of raw material had di minished. This year sgAin, there wou'd be a v(-r) large excess of imports, although, no doubt, that ultimately orders would come for goods, and the exports would be equalised to the imports. Still, in the mean time the exchange must be balanced by specie. No other plan of meeting the difficulty would suffice. Neither a pure gold currency nor an issue of notes would have avoided the rise of prices and the state of things to which he had referred. Notwithstanding all that had been said about the measure of 1844, he was persuaded, had it not been passed this country would not have been so well able to meet the crisis as it was, and when it came it would have lasted much longer. He maintained the soundness of the measure of 1819, the object of which was simrly to provide for the convertibility of paper into gold at any time when it might be required. He believed that the Bill of 1844, which regulated the issues of paper in pro portion to the gold held by the banks, had induced a more healthy system of banking and business, and the country was in a far better condition in many respects than it would otherwise have been. The operation of this measure ought not to be charged with the present state of the money market, but rather they should attri bute the crisis to the great imports of provisions which had taken place in the last two years, and the eitensive application of the wealth of the country to the purpose of railway construction. He believed that they would with caution get out of their present difficulty, though he did not expect for a long time that they would be able to procure money at such a low interest as it had been obtained for some time past. He had been anxious thus far to trespass on the House to state his views of the real cause of the present state of their monetary system. Mr. ROEBUCK said the proposition they had before them, was to grant a sum of 620,000/. for the construc tion of Irish railways. Several Hon. Members had spoken on the currency and the state of trade, but no one seemed to enter into the real question before the House. The Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets had made an excellent speech on the state of the money mark, t, and the causes which had led to it, and here was the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, proposing to aggravate the evil, and to further derange the monetary market by advancing this large sum of money. It was a course most impolitic and unjust, not only to the people of this country, , but the other parties in Ireland, who were not to participate in the grant. He had certainly been much surprised at the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for the University of Cambridge, who, while he had spoken decidedly against the appropriation of the money, still meant to vote for it. He was desirous, however, that it should be taken out of the eight millions already voted for Ireland. Now, when the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed that 620,000/ should be deducted from the eight millions that were originally voted for the relief of the people of Ireland, he should like to know what were the different circum stances in the state of that country, and in the intensity of the distress, that warranted him in making that diversion. But supposing the Right Hon. Baronet spoke in this way. (The Hon. Member for Bath here read a long extract from the speech of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer on proposing the grant of eight millions for the relief of distress in Ireland.) Ho believed that there was nothing to justify the princi pl.: laid down in the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman, as they did not know what the harvest might bring forth, he thought it was sacrificing all that was just and right and honourable to a false expediency to accede to this proposition. He felt himself called upon to divide the Committee upon this question, for he did not think that which had been hardly won by the intelligence, and by the sweat of the Englishman's brow, should be frittered away in this idle and unthinking manner. Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said that he fully sympathised in the difficult and embarrassing circumstances in which the Government were placed. Something, he thought, was wanting in grasp of thought, but no one would deny that, the measures of the Ministry were founded on good intentions, however de ficient they might be in wisdom. The poor-law had been passed as a measure calculated to improve the social co.idition of Ireland. But what were the other measures that were required to carry that previous mea sure into effect ? Was this 620,000/. to be the maximum of assistance that was to be given to that unhappy coun try ? But it was said that 1,500,0001. had been voted to improve the lands of Ireland. True, one million and a half was given to the Irish landlords, Mr. F. FRENCH—Not given, lent. Mr. B. OSBORNE.—The lion. Member need not Utley such extreme susceptibility.—(Laughter.) This money then was given —no, lent—(Laughter)—to the landlords of the country, for the improvement of land and the employment of agricultural labourers. Why the improvement of land necessarily led to the discou ragement of labour.—(No, no.) Would any one deny' that whereas, there were only four or five labourers em ployed on each hundred acres of Kell cultivated land in England or Scotland, they in Ireland employed some times four or five times that number. He doubted much that the Right Hon. the Chanceller of the Exchequer ' was no farmer. He told the House that there was an abundance of potatoes in the country, and that the green crops were laid &win. If sovereigns were not more plen tiful than potati Ts, the finance of the country would be in a deplorable suite ; he said that the green crops were on the ground. Why, the period for sowing tui nips was in June. They were rated for the soup kitchens, and as he had received, perhaps, one of the first copies of that rate, he should favour the House with it. The soup -e7e-ereaseeeeee.-- see— rate then in the union of Clonmel, fur three months, was estimated at 8,3401., and it would yield, if paid, 8,975/. In adopting that calculation fur the rating o f all the unions, he found that the gross amount would be 4,752,0001. This was to be raised fur soup kitchens. What would the poer-law come to ? Avereesing the rate as 4s, 61. in the pound, the total cost i-f out.deor relief weirlit amount to 7,000.000/ S%‘ven rniJions ei nemey ! Why, it amounted to the whole grol.s rental of Ireland. They had arrived at this state of things that tie measure would be impracticable in itself, unless rereleied effee tive by other large and comprehensive measures. Did the Government, think that these 620,000/. would eneort, the surplus labour o: Ireland ? Or did they think i:hat Irish Members would rest sate-fled wite it ?—(Laughter and cheers.) It was a lamentable proof of the state of teeling in that House, that when Irish gentlemen rose to place the distressed condition of their country before the House, they were met by invidious cheering ; 620,000/. were lo be granted to the Great Southern and Westerit Railway. He war not in sny way connected with that company, but he was assured that this mode of laying out their money would be productive the best results. He wont:4 just teed to the House the weekly return of traffic made up to the last week. The House would remember that the line was only com pleted for fifty- Nix miles and a-half of' its length, and that, in its route it embraced no commercial Lewes, or any manufacturing district, for as yet it only connected Dunlin and Carlow. He found,. however, that the tratlic for the last week was 1,5881. He regretted that when the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn brought forward his railway measure in the early part of the session, that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government al lowed party pride to influence him in his supposition to it. The whole remedy accrued to amount to this, and it was feared that the whole of the tenant farmers were likely to be eaten up, and the process seemed to be very likely to be soon finished—(Laughter)—and to some it appeared that this was a circumstance devoutly to be wished.— (Hear, hear.) But what would become of the country when it was overloaded with this Government debt. As he understood, there was a rate now to be collected ot a pound in the pound, and he had heard from an authority on which he could depend, but whose name !!e was un willing to mention, that a rate of 13s. in the pound had been levied, when a rate of tenpence could not be col lected—(Hear, hear.) Why, what man with a good ac count at his banker's; would ever think of drawing out his resources for tire sake of purchasing Irish property. For his own part, he thought that there would be very few. He had never been a party, either in the House or nut of it, to the cry against the present Government, or to swelling the clamour on the other side of the water, and unwilling as he was to connect himself with any party in the State, he would give his earnest support to the Noble Lord, if the Government were willing to look this Irish difficulty in the face. He would honestly and heartily render his support. The country had hitherto been governed by the Protestant Irish aristo cracy, but that system could no longer be supported, and they must turn to the democracy if they wished to im prove it. For his own part, he believed that the only re medy was to be found in a separate legislation. although he was one of the last to say that Ireland could exist without the assistance of England, for, unless that as sistance was held out, he believed that Ireland might as well be sunk to the bottom of the sea. But yet, although he was no advocate for the severance of the countries, the only remedy, in his opinion, was in the institution of a domestic legislation.—(Cheers.) Mr. SPOONER regretted that the Hon. Member who had just sat down, had started with the assurance that he would keep to the point, when he had spoken upon every subject but the one which was immediately before the House. The Hon. Gentleman had complained that the whole of the present pressure was owing to the course which the Bank of England had pursued in the manage ment of their capital, and great reference had been made to the lean of the 8,000,0001., as if that had been any particular element in the suffering which had been en. dured of late by all the commercial clews. But what was the case ? Why, the Bank, in the granting of their last charter, had been expressly charged to keep to their banking business, and were told that the issues could only be made in a particular manner. On this point they were expressly restricted. Well, they had kept to their banking business, they had not attempted to inter fere with the circulation. The two departments were entirely separate, and in his opinion the directors had acted wisely. They had not overstepped the terms of their charter,: and they touud that they had an abund ance of money in their coffers, and they had not hesitated to cash the good commercial paper a hich was proffered for their acceptance. They had conferred a great benefit on the whole of the community, and bad only acted as every other banker would have done. But gold went out of the country, and the specie in the hands of the Bank was reduced. The pressure ensued, but with that the Bank had nothing to do ; but now, velen the exchanges were in our favour, when the balance of trade had turned, then there was a great outcry raised respecting the conduct of the Bank. Let them look to the balance of trade, and they would see that although so much gold had gone out of the country, the influx ot corn now would have to be paid for in goods.--(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had alluded to the conduct Of the Emperor of Russia, who, according to consonre port, had bought 2,000,0001 in the British funds, and his he h p a a d r part , e a p s r s e e s r e ti n n t g e d thatit as i t an w a act l iokfogyrteoa improvemagnanimity the . state on of the t the sameßritish way funds. co m e Theto the assistance Emperor of Russia n had Bank u o s f t in' France. But was that an act of magnanimity ? They all knew his character, and that ambition formed a striking feature in it, and must therefore be assured that some other object tharethat of merely assisting the Bank of England had actuated him, even if this remark were true. He would not insinuate improper motives to that foreign power, but the Emperor of Russia might have an inte rest in securing the subserviency of France or of Prussia, through the medium of his great despotic influence ; not so much with a view of attaining any great advantage in either of these two counties, as to gain him sine in fluence over England. The Emperor of Rteeia, it was quite evident, could never hope to obtain any influence in this country through his great military forces ; but be might do so by maniseuvering with the finances ot Europe ; and it was evident from the Emperor's recent acts, that his policy was directed to the at tainment of that end. The Act of 1819 and 1844 must be got rid of before this country could prosper, or avert such an evil as the one he had just ventured to suggest. Already they were witnessing some of the bad effects of those measures, and unless the House took some precautionary steps to avert it, they would inflict a still severer blow upon the country . . The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, it was true, had supported those measures with a good deal of plausibility, and had asked them for a definition of the term pound, and used other specious arguments to in• duce the House to pass les Currency Billle, but still be (Mr. Spooner) wanted to know if the House was pre pared to continue a system which had always led, by easy and regular steps, to periodical depression in th e money and commercial intere st of the country. Sir R. PEEL—WeII, what is a pound ?—(Hear and laughter.) Mr. SPOONER said, short though his experience had been in that House, he had seen and heard enough to convince him that the Right Hon. Baronet was too great an adept, and ready at debating in that House, to render it an easy task for an Hon. Member, like himself, to grapple with him in a discussion of this sort ; but he begged to ask the Right Hon. Baronet where Mr. Pitt would have beer; when be came down to that Ho use to ask for their support during the war, if he had allowed himself to be put down by parties who celled upon him for a definition of the term pound. W e ll, now, what was a pound ?—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) What was a pound at the time of the Reformation.— (Hear, arid laughter.) Hon. Members might laugh, but lie would tell them that the country could not long sustain such panics as those they were now witnessing, without, indeed, the whole frame-work of society were suffered seriously to be disturbed, if not entirely broken up.—(Hear, hear.) But the Right Honour able Gentleman had asked him what was a pound ? He could not answer that question directly, but he would tell the Right Hon. Baronet that the pound of the present day greatly exceeded in value the pound which existed at the time the 800,000,0001. of national debt was contracted.—(Hear, hear.) He therefore warned the House, in the words of the late Sir R. Peel, that if' they persisted in continuing the present monetary policy of the country, they would eventually bring ruin and destruction upon the nation.—(Hear, heat.) He never thought that the state of the currency prior to the year 1819 was at all in a state of perfection. He believed that the operation of the measure of 1844 would prove a serious evil. There were at present many mer cantile houses in this country which were obliged to re fuse a great number of their orders, because they did not know that they would be able to obtain gold for the payment of the labourers. The consequence of the mea sure would be, that they would keep the gold in the country, but they would starve the people. Mr. MUNTZ would support the measure of the Go vernment upon the same ground as he would have sup- ported the measure of the Noble Lord the Member tor Lynn (Lord G. Bentinck), the only objection he had to the grant was, that it was not large enough. It was said that the finances of the country were in a bad state. Why, it was the fault of the Government that the finances were in that condition. He believed that the Right Hon. Baronet did perfectly right in bringing forward his measure of 1844; it was based upon a per fectly sound principle, and it was the fault of the Go vernment that when assistance was required for Ireland they were to be met with an objection respecting the finances of the country.—(Hear. hear.) Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL was glad to see that this proposition had obtained so large a share of support, and he thought if the Noble Lord opposite (Lord G. Bentinck) bad made a less demand than four millions a year for four years, when be introduced his plan for the construction of railways in Ireland, that he would have received much greater support than he did on that oc casion. The present motion proposed to give assistance only to those railways which had paid up half of the capital, and which were, therefore, of a bona fide character, and he was of opinion that it would have effected a great ,deal of good, in • employment and mitigating the distress givi ' ng nwehigichhbouthrehoncdounntfrymattitinwpresthenerte laboured. In sons at present employed in the Southern and ii 1 0 1 t o % ti N o m lrn e u a s t up t i e t' o e.h r er n n fr? Railway, and there could be no doubt that it assistance were extended to the present measure, reposed that the 1 i n o h l d thatwould her find leatbteodurveorfylnlren. s H u e rp r l e u g s r nt er fi Majesty's Government ample employment. intended to withdraw the the waste lands of Ireland, which had d e b r i eelamation of Ex chequer,to-night afnodr itihnewfiarsstqutiitrteren, would be received with 1, great dissatisfaction in Ireland. The Government e give • ug t to their reasons for abaft dolling the Waste Lauds' i . ar.d he was ahiaai , that such should be done, as the people of Ireland were an xious about it, certain a thein.that. Chancellor‘s.nnheann announced e Sir R. PEEL said, that duriug the whole course of the discussion, it was his last wish to throw any obsta- _- des in the way of the Government. Toey were s e aware of the difficulties by which they were surrounded' and even at the present. moment it was with great reluc_- tance that ho differed from the Noble Lord, the first Minister of the Crown. Ile e ster the measures - of the Noble Lord, tt'iTe Member for Lyn fer a :similar object, argil lie tett bound to say that that prcs it o prif °sato!' Vilt, „pen' objoetion than the hir it was one general in its na;ure, and not intended savour one more than another. But the Bill propose: only to assistone or two ruilssays at p resent IDs. istence, how having relet epee to any future hl; It appeared to him to he a eours , :vela to objectio n, the Government. should select three railways , and t hin a limit( d 10 each of them, excluding every ot railway comp tiy exceptive such as might entitle themselves to aid by' complying with the ss conditions a,„ which pucared similar advantaged: *electe d for the three railways that were originally Those were among the considerations which autos him to hesitate in ~•oting again , t the measure which l,„ Gentietuan opposite had the to t he In the year 1834, hs, the part of the Govern,: afterwar; meet , bad propweil that aid should be Oven to reet n_ - ,.. t way e9f,ratiy which: had tnt;tl,-d itself to that suPtes by being the first conseany that had established ara w a y (i;at country; anti he melt that he only did the 7 justice whet, he. on tee part of the G over nme nt, expresta, an opinion to the elf et that the company having cons pleteel and opened n certaiu portion of theii line, an d h t h e ing so created fuel and ample security to be offered to, Government, did entitle their claim to be favouraoptg considered by the Treesury, and he fit that he s h he hound, the circumstances being the sam e, to a adoye a similar course with regard to other railways of description PP . But the time and mode of the P' in Lion would necessarily influence its extent. Cer.tell of those railways declined to accept the proffered silly they saw other railways paying 8 per cent. , a nd ,p w e er, should the Government, if it lent any money whe,'"" a s '.end it so much below the market value of the period ho 5 per cent? It was rather too hard that comea°l" W had previously declined the aid of the Governinech should now come forward and solicit aid at s wu a s lower rate of interest than that which at the time w to ordinarily paid. He did not overlook the fon t th :PI; two other railways it was proposed to give 130, 0 jo the sum was small, but the grent of it was wro . ng rad" ) principle unless they were prepared—if other „ ae e fulfilled the same conditions — to extend to such ra f ir t illy aid of a similar kind and prop ort i ona t e amounts to refused to do that, they would lay themselves open to the charge of partiality and unfairness. 13e/ Ains weighed most on his mind, and chiefly disable for from agreeing with his Hon. Friend the Mee lher an Birmingham—if from long acquaintance that Gentler:si would allow himself to be called his lion. Friend ao the peculiar time at which the present propo sition the made. Those were times of peculiar pressure ; by Bank of England had reduced its seetll A il „ e : on 3,000,0001. ; that sudden and abrupt ru"'" - st i e l as a es e essie led to a panic unjustified by any cousin... whic h which came within his knowledge, or st ig, could be supposed to have any real existence. „no since the proposition of the Noble Member for lad had been made to the House important even t : a t a occurred. Exchequer-bills, which previouslY were bad premium, were now at a discount ; an increase et taken place in the interest on Exchequer-bills, and yeti notwithstanding ‘hat, they were at a discount, te d from 2s. to 10s. Besides, a loan had been contras o. for, and that loan was now at a discount of 3 PA r i ° t he Under these circumstances, it would be w' l "a„ e le greatest reluctance that he should interpose a eee,,e n t e m e i s g s h tt t ie t s ak o e f for the th p e eo p p u l r e po o s f e relievin g lreland . In word to interfere with the measures that Governetes statW o. In s t u h e e h urgent L'"f things he did not care who might be in or out of ° D v. He believed that, whoever might be in office, the con' 'listen of the Crown ought to receive the gene rsi e fidenee of the [louse when the object which they P lI „ oo s view was to preserve from famine the masses wh° `O n ly stituted the population of Ireland ; and he could sod blame them if to those particular railways that had o; itr. mentioned the Government had lent an attentive it ,. He could not, however, omit to observe , that t° lett labour on railways was not the way to relieve th e o em s —the true p 'lie) , of the railway contractor 1 0 °14 not ploy the best skilled labour ; and it certainly " e I V) th e appear to him that there would be much a dvant c s . f e no elieS working classes in Ireland that the fathers 01 w ork should be brought from Connaught to Munster ;deans on railways when employment could be more - tageously given to them at home. On the ways did not seem to him to be the most efl s ?r f fo re mode of giving relief. All that applied with fa" ° to to the plan of the Goverment. It was imp - s tn Ireland as it was to every other country to m ain his public credit, and he did find it impossible to give the vote in favour of the Government plan. Perhaps Le Chancellor of the Exchequer might say that he P l "" borrowed 8 000,0001, that he had saved something uP °Il public works, that &alp kitchens had not proved so ell pensive as he apprehended, that he had 620,0004 to ick the manner snowspare, ar proposed. it w T be his m w u a c s h spire, and that he could not do better than apply it oo he could by no means %lent. If there was a eo ns of t t o ha i n ncreasing the balances in the Exchequer-4 te aptly it in the manner which the Governinent intended it should be applied. Instead of arguing, as the, he shoula Hight Hon. Gentleman had that night argued , have strictly applied the surplus g of 620,0001• to in crease the balances in the Exchequer ; and the HoUSe of Commons bad had so much morn expenditure t° provide for than they had expected, that they be suppoted willing to listen to a demand fur an ex penditure so much less than they had been led to eXPe et from the first demand; yet, because the House eV liberal, on that very account, he (Sir R. Peel)considereoo was the duty more incumbent upon them to apelY any savings that might be in the Exchequer, not for the Il l ' crease, but for the diminution of the public liabilitiehoe. If' this money were to come out of the 8,000,000 L, whiehet (Sir R. Peel) did not understand on Wednesday nig" when he understood that it was not to come from the' source, but out of the Bank, as he thought had bee n i confidently stated, that would be a different quest;: But, if it lid: ly appeared to the Chancellor of the 1; tee chequer that, finding difficulties he bad not expects./ arising in the mohey market, and seeing that ev ne , mode of relief was necessary to be adopted, he could go on with the measure for the reclamation of waste lends, not being able to meet the expenditure it w . O r tn o. involve, he (Sir R. Peel) did not blame the Right. 13° , Gentleman for abandoning that measure; h e did _ l . O l blame him at ail for seeing in days like these it was nos expedient to enter upon such an undertaking; that, is arty rate, he would not bring the measure forward. 9, t• That, be Sr lie session, but would at once withdraw . entirely Peel) thought was a manly course to take, and he I tint of 6. agreed with the Right lion. Gentleman in ado? 1 The loan ought to be an advantage in which a- partsust the United Kingdom should equally share, and he 112 0 t. object to any lean from the Exchequer in which S e e t hind and the other portions of Great Britain did ,_ 11 .4 participate.—(Hear, tnar.) Why, he had been told 05, so highly thought of was this railway in the south ° ll l Ireland, that it did not depend for its support upon Ir is . shareholders, but that great English capitalists bad e 0 ,13 1- forward, and invested large sums of money in the Oder. taking. If this Dublin and Cashel Railway did not b!; long to these needy and destitute shareholders, but if did belong to the men of substance , e.,ebt Hon. Gentleman behind me—(Great such as the •It'b Mr. HUDSON—I not laughter)— ; 0 possess a single share an Irish railway. Sir ROBERT PEEL—The Right Hon. Gentle desnes the holding of a share• he meant to say that if men likelethaee_ Irish railwala_ t v ie . Right Hon. Ur u man, non-resident in Ireland, b c o to but good speculators L. the prospects of gain —ii these were the m en to benefited, be would ask (7what in grounds was the measure proposed. Influenced by such considerations' he found subject of' the debate, he thought he should have ht l _,7 enough, if a single Member for Birmingham had attache:, him; but a spur on each man was too much--(A lour/ —but really be must say he thought this a very War propriate occasion for entering on a general debate ° ll G °v er ehtiiint*--sel(flloebalrig, ehdeatrooreciNor,dithhriser the the currency and the monetary concerns of the country' Mr. SPOONER—I did not begin it. Sir R. PEEL resumed by observing that his Friend had sanctioned, by following, the example had been set him. His Hon. Friend represented th°ros peculiar doctrines which he had enunciated ; he reP ott seated a constituency who had the strongest feelingkon, the suojeet in the kingdom ; and at least, if his, h igh Friend had not begun this debate, he had lent 1 0 ,, w as authority to the continuation of it, and of course by not possible thet be (Sir R. Peel) should acquie sc _'pat silence, in the doctrines that his lion. Friend 117.0r0. forward. His lion. Friend had made him a sort °no. a nd miss that it he (Sir R. I've!) would tell him w het d ' was, his Hon. Friend would him tell what his mesa or any other banker who issued be eaw l ' notes to t bearer 51. when he said on his note, "I premise to pay th„ r e riee" But then, when he proceeded it / to answer, Ai the said that he was an insidious Tr I • g man —(A au of ar guin • be could not trust his (Sir R. Peel's) mete. - But he wished know , promised him, to when any one meant--- holder of a bank-note, to pay him / what was d at 5., A up what was • intended by the promise to pay? ..,° Coo the Conquest, and at various other times since pie it quest, might have varied in the quantity of metal represented, but it always had meant a definite cl e oan t of the precious metals; it always, in f ac t, had m ince to weight. That weight might have varied from il erts ia time, but at all tinsel; a und bad signified I I C „, O of quantity of the precious metals. si nc e the c r a ne been Queen Elizabeth the coin of the country might 116 7001 Y defective, might have been worn.—(Hear, hear.) no te one Hon. Member would have nothing but 1- d t hese —(Laughter)---and another a worn coinage; 110 akar. were the great remedies for national disasterse-, the hear.) But, since the reign of Elizabeth, thougu al coin might have been worn, the Jaw bas hoe sebvpaeoesttcoteeturitavn4(gt, igio4t anoleepfi 'wotp tit ways been that the stancht d of value shot] e , if a definite weight. The Hon. Gentleman said that a Mr. Pitt had been asked in 1797, '` Wh et this nation would have been lowered in the uestie pound?" and had attempted to answ er the scale eni nations—(Laughter)—and, with rath er an anti-eh,rit. , the Hon. GenCeman went to say, t hat he (S if ona , eo Peel) should not have been sea t e d in the seat he if rcie a ny °1 V occupied. But, he begged to obser ve, that , had said in 1797 to Mr. Pitt, "Is it y our irate said, d d , have a paper currency ?" Mr. Pitt woul d have Isaie, It was " God forbot 1 I do not intend any such thing- ever ill well known that the Bank Restriction Act was n _ tended to last more than three years; but the evil wa i t. once departing fretti a principle. Afterwards, eveßejuee, Pitt could not coritrol the necessary tendency of alive I o_r le b ; of Wfi th a . t . i w ni i g r h h t e h :. v o t o • l b d e e n n o t i t d s i s effect enss ; in h i., tearninghewounsi d tre k o w t at° z‘utrured most by the inconvet tible p,per ? that received the wsges of labour. Mr. SPOONER, expressed dissent. t bot Sir ROI3ER I* PEEL resumetl—What w.:re not class the principal sufferers who received their Age' I