The Sun. — London, England, 1840-02-22 00:00:00

, vstance any evidence was necessary to show that a Mem ber of that House had succeeded to a Peerage, but if it had been usual in the case of a Member succeeding either to a Scotch or Irish Peerage to have evidence of that fact, surely it would have been in the power ofsome Hon. Member to state what evidence was required.—(Hear, hear.) But, that had not been done. He bad not heard from Hon. and Learned Gentlemen opposite, any statement as to the nature of the evidence which that House had been in the habit of requiring that a Scotch or Irish Member had succeded to a Peerage. But under those circumstances it did appear to him that their duty was not to improve - the law, but to adhere to the law, and to the existing practice of that House. As be did not find it had been stated by any Hbn. Gentleman, that any evidence beyond the notoriety of the fact would be required, he wculd, though he admitted with considerable doubt, vote against the adjournment of the motion.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Lord STANLEY said that no one disputed that in the case of an English Peer, it was necessary to produce the technical evidence which was derived from a writ of sum mons, and all that was asked for was, that a postponement might take place in order that it might be ascertained what had been the universal rule in the case of a Scotch Peer. Was it to be expected that they should have at their fin gers' ends all the precedents on this subject? Why, pro bably, there was not a single Gentleman on that side of the House, who had come down with the slightest idea that there was any intention for moving for a new writ that evening. —(" Oh, oh 1" from the Ministerial benches, answered by cheers from the Opposition benches.) More over, he would state this, that he believed it was unheard of, that a writ should he moved upon the death of a Bri tish or Scotch Peer, withia the space of three days from his death,—(Cheers.) Hon. Gentlemen might be able to produce such an instance ; but, at all events, they ought to look into precedents, and see how the law stood. The Under- Secretary for the Home Department ought to have been prepared to have produced evidence of the practice, before moving. for the writ.—( Hear, hear.) If practice and precedent were in favour of Honour able Gentlemen opposite, they might re'y upon it that not one obstacle would be thrown in the way of the issuing of the new writ. But if it was determined to press this motion, being unahle to satisfy the House that they were not proceeding without that legal evidence which ought to be required, and which ought to have been re quired in former cases, then he thought his Hon. Friend was right in proposing this amendment.—( Hear, hear.) Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared-- For issuing the Writ For the Adjournment Mzji.rity The Writ was accordingly ordered. On the motion of Mr. HLTME, various Returns con nected with the Legacy Ditty were ordered. DROPPED NOTICES. The Dropped Notices of yesterday were fixed fcr other days. FROST, WILLIAMS, AND JONES. Mr. LEADER fixed Tuesday next for bringing before the House the case of Frost, Williams. and Jones. AFFAIRS OF THE EAST. Sir R. PEEL said, that there was a question which he wished to put to the Noble Lrrd the Secretary of State for the Foreign Department. The question had reference to a paragraph in the Speech delivered by her Majesty at the commencement of the Session. That paragraph was to the following effect :—" The affairs of the Levant have continued to occupy my most anxious attention. The concord which has prevailed amo gat the Five Powers has preven'ed a renewal of hostilities in thikt quarter, and I hope that the same unanimity will bring these important and difficult matters to a final settlement, in such a manner as to uphold the integrity and independence of "the Otto man Empire." He wished to know if the Government hoped to maintain the integrity, as well as the independ ence, of the Ottoman Empire, and if the unanimity be tween the Five Powers was likely to continue, or whether the question was likely soon to be brought to a final issue? • Loud PALMERSTON said that the paragraph meant that the - five Powers were unanimous in their intention to maintain the integrity as well as the independence of the Ottoman empire, as well as to preserve the peace of Eu rope. He four.ded that assertion, in the first place, on the opinions entertained on the subject by her Majesty's Go vernment ; he founded it, in the second place, on the speech of the King of the French at the opening of the French session, in which the words integrity and indepen dence of the Ottoman empire were expressly mentioned ; and he founded it, in the third place, on the ascertained opinions of the other Powers on the question. With re gard to the inquiry as to the present state of the negocia. tions on the subject, he could only say that the matter was under the consideration of the five Powers. He believed, however, that the Right Hon. Gentleman would not press him to enter into any details as to the nature of the nego ciations. Sir ROBERT PEEL said that he wished principally to know if the questions were likely to be settled at an early period. Lord PALMERSTON said that the English Go vernment had been in treaty with the other four Powers, and be believed that the matter would be brought to a conclusion as soon as might be compatible with the in terests of the different parties. THE MEDITERRANEAN FLEET. Captain BERKELEY wished to ask the Hon. Gen tleman the Secretary of the Admiralty if the British ves sels in the Mediterranean were on a peace establishment or not ? Mr. M. O'FERRALL replied that they were at pre sent on a peace establishment. , PORTUGUESE CLAIMANTS. Lord SANDON rose for the purpose of bringing for ward a motion in favour of the Portuguese claimants. A compact had been entered into with those gallant men which had never been fulfided.—(Hear, hear.) They had, on the contrary, been treated with every species of indignity, and be could not but characterise the conduct observed towards them as most atrocious. There were two classes of persons who hid to complain of the Portuguese Government. There were first those who nad refused to accede to the conditions offered them by that Government; those men had been cast into dun goals, and treated with the utmost cruelty. When he read of the injuries they bad suffered, be could not but ask what was the conduct of the British Government when they saw hundreds of English subjects whom they ought to have protected cast into prison. He was surprised to find that the indignities exercised towards them would not be 'followed by any interference on the part of their Go vernment. These men, however, had merely refused to serve on any other terms than those on which they bad been engaged. There was the other class of those who had acceded to a new contract, and these men, though they bad not been treated with the same cruelty as the others, had had the greatest fraud exercised towards them. - In the first place, no payment bad been made of their stipulated pay. They were re fused a single shilling unless they should sign a receipt in full, in which all kinds of frauds were used for the pur pose of diminishing their claims. For five years, how ever, they had not received anything. That was done by appointing a commission for the purposes of chicanery and deceit. In the month of August lest year, it had been proposed that a peremptory demand should he made on the Portuguese Government in favour of the claimants. That Commission was to be similar in its nature to that which existed for a similar purpose en the part of the British sol diers in Spain. One Commissioner was to be appointed by the claimants, another by the British Government, and and another by the Government of Portugal. The Eng. lish Minister in Portugal had addressed three several de mands to the Portuguese calling for such a Commission, and expressing their determination to compel the Portu guese Government to satisfy the claims in question. A Commission had been appointed, but such was the charac ter of that Commission, that though it had sat for three years it had only decided on one claim, and that was merely to the amount of 401. He did not see any re medy to this state of things. He believed that the pre sent Foreign Minister of Portugal was altogether opposed to the interests of the claimants. How, he would ask, did it happen that the English were those only whose rights ever they refused, and that they never heard of French or American claimants ?—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord (whose indistinct mode of speaking renders him peculiarly unintelligible) concluded by moving the Address to her Majesty for a Commission to investigate the claims. Lord PALMERSTON said in a great part of the com plaints against the Government of Portugal as to British claimants be was very much inclined to agree.— ( Hear, hear.) He thought the conduct of that Government on the subject well worthy of reprobation.-- s ( Hear, hear, hear.) Although the British Government bad at first wished to await the spontaneous justice of the Portuguese Government, they had lately endeavoured to enforce on that Government the necessity of a Commis sion to sit in London ; assenting (if that were agreed to) to make it a mixed Commission of Portuguese and Bri tish; but if not, declaring that they would take the course suggested by the Noble Lord of addressing the Crown for a Commission entirely British.--( Hear, hear.) He therefore entreated the Noble Lord, for the present at least, to postpone the motion till the answer of the Portu guese Government was received. Portugal was unfortu nately now suffering under the demoralizing effects of a long course of gross misgovernment—(Hear)—and it was to be trusted would speedily recover under the constitu tional representative Government recently established, in imitation of the American and French representative sys tems.—( Hear, hear.) Sir H. HARDINGE said the treatment of these claimants had been truly infamous. The Portuguese Go vernment had fi rs t b y their ill con. duct driven them into mutiny, and then compelled them to work like galley slaves —( Hear, hear.) How was it pos s ibl e t h at any Representative of th e British uY Governmentgorneatethoubildxityh_ava g r ii ) g T e seen these gallant There men treated ?—( H ear , ' a l a v i l b e of e e f n dot a y hrnatot l u l part of greatthe hear, hear.) enee—a ßepresentativ e , a who f or fi ve years had e viewed such injustice without redressing. it.—Hear, h ear .) Mr. HUME regretted that Portugal should have been so grossly ungrate ful t o those who ser ve d it. Buwterae question arose how far the British far h Government they bad sanctioned the enterprise— bound to take the matter up. and ho j • Mr. O'CONNELL said it did not lay in the mouth O r the Portuguese Government to dispute about the sanc tion of the British Government to the expedition.—( Hcar, hear.) The Portuguese Go vern ment had availed them selves of the blood—tbe lives of these gallant men ; and it was monstrous to refuse or delay to pay them._ (Hear, hear.) The shame, the disgrace, of having so long submitted to such robbery must be wiped off by the in &sting on an immediate restitution.—( Hear, hear.) Lord PALM ERSTON said these unfortunate men had not received the sanction of the Government. But that made not the slightest difference as to the obligation of the Portuguese Government to pay thern.—( Hear, hear.) Now he nished to observe that the British Resi dent at Lisbon had made such representations to that Gevernment.as were expedient as to the treatment of these men. Sir H. HA RDINGE said those representations must have been very tardy ; he knew that for some weeks these poor fellows : had been 'compell e d . t o d o th e scavengers ' work in the streets of Lisbon, to the amazement and dis gust of the Portuguese themselves.—( Hear, hear. ; Lord SANDON withdrew his motion for the present, on the understanding that something heavier than hitherto would be hanging over the beads of the Portuguese Go vernment, from whose justice, much less generosity, he had no hope; whatever —( Hear, hear.) TRANSMISSION OF VOTES. Captain POLHILL complained that Members were compelled, if they wished to transmit Votes and Proceed ings, to come down to the House, so that if the House were " up early" the papers did rot go. Mr. GORDON (one of the Treasury Secretaries) said the Chancellor of the Exchequer (not then present) would take care to apply some remedy. Sir G. CLERK could not understand why this fool;sh obstruction should be interposed to the transmission of the House papers. Why not go like Newspapers? Was it to make a little difference in the Post-office accounts?— The disguise was too flimsy. —( Hear, bear.) Lord SANDON was of a similar opinion, and could not understand the reason of thus obstructing the pub licity of their proceedings, about which so much was said. Mr. WA RBURTON hoped that after the observations which had fallen from the Noble Lord, the House would be very jealous about altering the regulations of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, as this seemed to be'only the commencement of an attempt to break down those regu lation?..—( Hear, hear.) Mr. F FRENCH complained of the inconvenience which Members were put to by being charged ld. pre plvment upon Parliameotary papers weighing under four ounces. _ _ Mr. GORDON said that applied to other papers, not the Votes. Mr. GOULBIT RN—May I ask the Right Hon. Gen tleman, does he give it up ; if he does I shall give him the answer.—( Laughter.) When you send the papers from your own house you are charged Id. ; when you send them from this House you pay nothing. Captain POLHILL hoped that some arrangement would be made to remedy the inconvenience. THE SHERIFF. Sir M. WOOD wished to ask a questio'n of the Noble Secretary for the Colonies. An occurrence took place yesterday which was made known in all the public prints, viz., that the Writ of Inquiry in the case of Stockdale was postponed for two months, and all proceedings in that ease stayed i❑ the meanwhile. Now. he asked the Noble Lord, was It intended to keep the Sheriff in confinement all that time ?—( Hear, hear.) He wished to know whe ther Members of that House were to br put in danger of their lives—( Hear, and laughter)—as was the case this day with his Hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny ? (Great laughter.) The Hon. Member was thrown out of a chair, and the Hon. Member for Finsbury was tossed over a rail.— (Laughter.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought, that if the Sheriffs had anything to say, their better course would be to apply to the House in a regular manner—by petition. Mr. HUME said, that as his natne had been men tioned, he hoped the House would allow him to state the case.—(Cries of ‘. Oh, oh," and laughter.) The fact was, the freeholders of Middlesex were proceeding quietly for more than an hour, when the Deputy Sheriff came into their meeting, attended with a most riotous as sembly.—(Great laughter.) Captain POLHILL was present, and could say that the statement of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny was not ex actly correct.—("Order.") The SPEAKER was sure the House would see the irregularity of the proceeding, and put the question for the Committee on the Navy Estimates, when Mr. HERRIES asked the Right Hon. Secretary of the Treasury (Mr. Gordon) whether any communication had taken place between the Treasury and the applicants for compensation for the opium destroyed in China since the Right Hon. Gentleman bad told those applicants that it was not the intention of the Government to apply to Par liament. _ _ Mr. GORDON said there had been no communication beyond the notices . NAVY ESTIMATES. The House then went into a Committee of Supply on the Navy Estimates. Mr. MORE O'FERRAL, in rising to move the Navy Estimates for the first time, begged for the indulgence of the House, as the -duty which was at all times difficult, was on this occasion especially so. In the course of the last year, there had been a considerable in crease in the number of ships in commission of all classes. On the Ist of January, 1839, the number was 224. On the Ist of January, 1840, the number was 239, being an increase of 15. It was not necessary for him to refer to the circumstances which would render that increase neces sary. The Committee was aware that arrangements for an increase of the naval force rested with the Government at large, and the Board of Admiralty had no control over it.—( The Right Hon. Gentleman was very indistinctly heard throughout his statement.) The amount of excess in the gross estimate of last year was 395,0001. The credits he made were considerably less this year than last, and the-gross excess was this year 461,000/. He thought h n should best consult the convenience of the Committee if he stated the increase 9f the several departments under their respective heads. 'ln No. I—the item for wages— there was an increase list year for 1,211 men borne on the books, and this year it would probably be necessary for the House to assent to an increase to the amount of 1,000 men, and to give a supply sufficient for their maintenance. In No. 1 there would be an increase of 60,0001., of which 36,000/. would be applied to the payment of 1,000 men, and the remainder to the additional payment of petty offi cers, surg'ons in small ships, engineers, and naval instruc tors in ships of the line. On that point his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Halifax had stated last year the grounds on which that alteration was made, and his state ment gave satisfaction to the Committee of the Navy.— ( Hear, hear.) In the item No. 2, for provision for the men, there was an increase of 58,000/. Of that 23,0001. was occasioned by the increase in the price of provisions, over which the Admiralty had no control. In No. 3, an increase would appear upon the votes of 600/. for postage, which was not, however, an increase upon the country ; and there was also an increase of 2,0001. in that item for the salary of certain officers. In Nos. 4,5, 6, and 7, there was an increase altogether of 2,8211. In some of -the details there had been a decrease, but, on the whole, an increase. In No. B—Artificers and Dockyards—there was an increase of 60,000/., of which 50,0001. went to ship wrights and others in the Dockyard, and 10,000/. to the persons who were employed in the new sterm-boat manu factory at Woolwich. The increase of the number of men on the whole would be about 800. An increase was made in 1836, and an additional increase every year from that time. The fitting out of small ships and steamers had previously drawn away the attention of the Admiralty from the building of large ships—(Tory cheers)—to which no attention had been paid from 1819 At the close of the war we had a large number of ships in ordi nary, and up to 1830 scarcely any increase had been made by • foreign powers in their navies. But since that time great exertions to increase their naval force had been made by every nation in Europe, especially by our neighbour France.--(Hear, bear, hear.) Therefore it became this country to look in time to an increase of the first class of ships, and to provide thereby the most efficient, certain, and cheapest means of preserv ing peace.—( Cheers.) Therefore at this period, which was said to be ohe of financial difficulty, the Government could not hesitate to come down to the House and ask for what many Membcra would consider a large increase of the navy..—( Hear, hear.) In No. 9 there was an increase of 900/. for foreign dockyards, occasioned by the increase of the repairs of steamers in Jamaica. Malta, and in India. In No. 10 there was also a large increase for naval stores, to the amount of 136,0001. A large portion was it - Fended to be applied to stores of ship building materials, in which there had been an increase for the last five years; and it was proposed to increase the workmen employed in building ships, and although in the yard there was a large supply of timber, yet it was necessary to provide a still larger stock beforehand, because a deficiency in any particular kind might render the remainder comparatively useless. An occasion at present offered for obtaining a large supply of timber of the kind tardiest in growth, most difficult to ob• tarn, and most desirable to possess. A large portion of the grant would be applied to that purpose, and it was intended to bring up the stores to a full establishment._ ( Hear, hear.) He believed that the vote of this year would place the whole establishment of stores in a state of full provision, so that in the event of an emer gency we would have the means of arming the ships now in ordinary, and of carrying on our naval works for a con siderable period without gel , g into the market to purchase stores at a disadvantage. The next item of expenditure—. No. 11—was one of considerable importance. It was for new works and improvements. The increase upon the item of last year was 33,000/., making the whole item 76,000/. If only the works sanctioned in former years were carried on, the Estimate would have been less than last year; but the increase was .occasioned by the necessity for new works : part was for the machinery about to be erected at _Deptford for the sp:nning of hemp, with a saving of 70 per cent. to the public. At Woolwich considerable works were going on for a long period : - - new docks were in course of construction, as was also a bason in connection with the steam-vessel factory. Machinery was also ne tcheessparlayntoofhemcro.nsutrauncktar,d awthWoo l wichch would cos t m on l yak n making halffuel n e price of coal, with one-fifth more efficiency.—(Hear.) It would also have the advantage that it would keep longer out at sea. Another charge under this heed was I,boo/. for erectirg a shed at Sheerness, and also 4,000/. for clear ing the mud ou t o f th e harbour. The charge for this item had hitherto been only 1,0001. ; but it was considered that the 3.000/ would be v%'ell expended, as the hat Lour would be much improved thereby. At Portsmouth it was pro posed to add to the sawing machinery, and at Pembroke It was intended to increase the number of buildings, the expenses of all which would have to come under the head of expenditure. Then upon Noe 12, Medicines, there was an increase of 500/ 6 0n No. 13, Miscellaneous Ser vices, there was a considerable increase in consequence of the sums that were to be devoted to the building and keep ing up of steam packet vessels at Liverpool, Aberdeen, and Alexandria. The excess on that head was 53,754/. On 14, 15, and 16 the Half-pay Navy, and Marine Pensions and Allowance's, there was a decrease of 34,712/ ; and on 17 and 18 there was an increase of 22,000/. He had now gone through the different heads upon which there had been an increase. He had not referred to the acts of former Governments, to justify the increase, as he was content to rest it upon its own merits, and because he was unwilling to offer any observations which had any reference to party. The Navy Estimates had never been considered a party question ; and he would therefore content himself by stating that the whole amount required for the service of the year in the naval department would be 5459,051/. of which 3,372.3901 was applicable to the naval service, while the sum of 2,237,0001. would be applicable for the service which would be regarded as non-effective. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that a vote for 35,165 men, including 9,000 Royal Marines, should be charged on the Navy Estimates from the 31st of March, 1840, to the 31st of March, 1841. Sir G. CLERK had not the slightest objection to make to the statements of the Right Hon. Gentleman, but he must express his regret that, at the present moment, when the subject of the efficiency of the naval service of the country attracted so much attention, he had not gone further into the reasons for the increase proposed of 1,000 men as compared with the vote of last year. He was not disposed in the slightest degree to object to the increase, but .it must he remembered that the votes proposed were large, but if properly applied there could be no deficiency of ships or stores in the arsenals of the country. He considered that Ministers, with these large sums at their disposal, would incur great responsibility, if they were not prepared at any time to repel all attempts from foreign Powers on the coasts of the country, and to preserve the British flag from insults in any part of the world. The present vote was considerably larger than was pro. pose in 1830, the last occasion in which it ,had fallen to his lot to propose the Estimates to the House, though at that time the Admiralty had to protect the whole of the coast of Kent and Sussex, and for that purpose it wit ne cessary to have several cruisers in the Channel. In that :•ear it had been made a charge against the Admiralty that they had kept a greater number of ships and men afloat than were voted for, but the circumstances that then existed justified that course; yet, still at that time, when it was necessary to keep a large force employed in the Mediteranean of thirty-three thousand men— very near the nember required at the present moment—yet in that y:'ar the navy estimates were 5,594.000/.", and the whole sure expended 5,300,0001-350.0001. less than the sum which the present Government required. With re spect to the wages of the seamen the sum paid at that time exceeded that at the present by upwards of a million But at that time the whole burthen of the Post-office, which cost upwards of 105,000/. was thrown upon the Admiralty, and they had also the coasts of Kent and Sussex to protect. He considered it a most grave charge which had been made egainst the Admiralty during the last year, that they had not had a sufficient number of men to man the vessels. As a proof of that, if any Gen tleman would take the trouble of comparing the number of men voted as the full peace complement, they would find upwards of 2,000 men short of the complement. He thought that it was not expedient that any ships should be sent to the Mediterranean without having the full crimple meet of men allowed in war time. From the official do cuments that had been produced, the whole complement of men required to man the vessels was 26,524, while the e ni i p a e d a t peace yt e c fic o c m ahi pea p ntd l at e i complement. eoeNnmf left r . pi ieett nrheei H sti hi e teopf believed that real number employed was only 24,376—therefore, upon the aggregate of the ships there was wanted 2,148 xnen to am v N l e l la e s ksdeei the urra commandedn shipst e l a ' Powerful,f oarn andttlhi ee s the Benbow left the Channel considerably short of their complement of men. He thought nothing would justify such a course cf proceeding. He believed that there was no naval officer in that House that would not bear him out in the statements that he had made, In 1830, this coun try had nine sail-of-the-line ice the Mediterranean, while the French had eight. Bat what was the state of cir cumstances now ? Why, this country had increased the number of ships to 12. while the French had increased theirs to 15 They had now two ships of the line, with 120 guns, one of 100, two of ninety, and four of 86. He would not say whether the French Government were act ing upon a right system or not, but he thought it was incumbent at least upon the Government of this country to' keep up a force there equal to France.—( Hear, hear. ) He had been greatly disappointed in the statement of the Secretary for the Admiralty, as he had made no allusion whatever to two important alterations that were stated to be in contemplation or in progress when the Nsvy Esti mates were before the House• on the past occasion--one related to a new armament for the fleet, and the other the scheme urged upon them by Captain Berkeley for an in crease of complement. . ..• Mr. M. O'FERRALL—Some alterations have taken place . Sir G. CLERK said that within the last three years it had been seen that extreme difficulty had occurred when it was necessary to make the slightest increase in the num ber of ships. if a ship came home and there was a dis charge, there might not be so much difficulty ; but, if there was not a discharge of men, and it was required to make an addition of one or two thousand men to the navy. those men had to he drawn from the merchant service. There was great difficulty in doing that, and therefore it was of the utmost importance that care should be taken. There were better means of increasing the navy in cases of emergency than existed at present. One of the means on which they were able to rely in 1830 was the coast blockade on the shores of Kent and Sussex. That was done away with, and the coast guard substituted in its stead. It was stated by the Secretary of the Admiralty last year, that he was sorry to find the coast guard so inefficient, but that it was in contemplation to appoint a commission to place the coast guard in a more efficient state. He wished the Secretary of the Admi. alty had told the House whether anything had been done on that subject. He agreed that the state of the navy ought not to be considered as a party question, but that all means ought to be resorted to for the put pose of recovering the difficulties which had hitherto existed as to putting the navy in an efficient state. Little advantage was derived from the men in ordinary. Then Ls to the distribution of naval force, and with reference to the facilities which they ought to keep viithin reach, of increasing their navy in cases of emergency, he understood there were 21 ships of the line in commission. Twelve of those were em ployed in the Mediterranean ; three first raters were the guard ships in the harbours at home, with not one-third of their complement; three he believed were destined for service on the coast of China, and the remaining three were stationed in the Tagus. Therefore, if any circum stance should arise in the East Indies, or West In dies, or the coasts of South America or North America, which might render it necessary to protect their commerce or the English flag from insult, there was not within reach a single line-of-battle ship that could be sent for that purpose. —(Cheers.) Why had they kept for the last five years three line-of. battle ships in the Tagus? They had heard from the Noble Lord (the Secretary for Foreign Affairs) a confes sion of hi.; total want of influence in the Portuguese Court. He had been pressing on the Portuguese Government for five y e ars to do an act of justice to British subjects, to whom the Portuguese Government was under the greatest obligations, but whom they had treated in the most dis graceful and cruel manner. What answer would the Por tuguese Government have made the Noble Lord if he had told them that be would withdraw the three line-of-battle ships from the Tagus? That would have brought the Portuguese Government to their senses sooner than any step the Noble Lord had taken.—( Hear, hear.) Keeping those three ships there had cost this country half a million of money. If the Noble Lord wa s a bl e t o s h o w that the Portuguese Government were exposed to difficulty and embarrassment from their attachment to the British Go verment and British interests be would have some excuse for keeping those vessels there, but after the statement he had made, showing that he had no influence in Lisbon— and the same might he predicated of every other capital, that the Noble Lord had no influence whatever—(Hear, hear, and laughter)—he was at a loss to understand why so heavy en expense was kept up —( Hear, hear.) One of those ships, the Blenheim, had been withdrawn, in order to go to China. And see what a situation this country had been in within the last few months from having no force within reach. In July Last intelligence reached this country of the rupture between the Resident at Canton and the Chinese. If soon after that .time they had been able to despatch such a force as was necessary. and as they were now about to send from the shores of this country, they might have been able, at an earlier period, and, with less difficulty, to have brought about an amicable adjustment. The Blenheim and the two frigates who were to accompany her only sailed from Portsmouth within the last month.—( Hear, hear.) But the coast of this country was left entirely without protec tion. He believed the Admiralty had bad some important information within the last year on the subject of the movements in the Baltic, and he believed that no Gallant Admiral, either at a public dinner, or elsewhere, would now rise and say that the Russian fleet were mere paste board ? The Him. Gentlemen had stated that owing to the calls on the Admiralty for steam-vessels, and attending to the repairs of the Post-office packets, the dockyards had been unable to build large ships, but he was happy to hear that it was now intended to commence building some line-of-battle• ships, and that it was intended to lay down two new slips at Pembroke for constructing line-of-battle ships. The Admiralty, with the ample means that were now placed within its reach by Parliament would be guilty of the grossest neglect of duty if they did not in a short tine remove from the minds of the people of this country that alarm and suspicion which he believed very generally pre vailed, that the ships of the navy in ordinary were at the present m-ment in a weak and ineffective state.—( Hear.) If Great Britain was to enjoy that pre eminence which had hitherto maintained as a naval and maritime power, it was necessary for her to build ships, however inconvenient the expense might be, of that class, and of that size, which she was likely to have to contend with in the case of war. —{Hear. hear.) was happy to hear it teas the inten tion of the Board of Admiralty to pursue that course. He was unwilling to go into details, because he thought the THE. SUN, LONDON SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 22, 14() itr ms could, with more propriety, be discussed when the particular votes came under discussion. The present vote was for men. and it involved the most important considera tion of all. Ile regretted to be in that situation as to render so great an increase in the naval force necessary beyond whet was found requisite in former years.—( Ht-sr, hear.) They had been told by the Noble Lord that they were still in a state of profound peace. The necessity of the increase proposed, therefore, must be attributed to the policy that had been pursued, which, instead of placing the country in a state of profound peace, bad placed it in that stete of feverish anxiety, which was the most effectual means that could be employed by those who wished the downfall of England to secure their object, which weakened her resources. The Government had the means of information which were not within the reach of individual Members, and knew whether it was neets ary to maintain a force of any particular description. He was not, therefore, disposed to offer any opposition to the vote for 35 000 men. Mr. M. O'FE RRALL wished to make a few observa tions in explanation. The Commission appointed with reference to the Coast Gu.rd had not made its report. On the subject of the flag ships net being fully manned, though the complement of the three ships was below that which they ought to go to sea with, yet there was sufficient men in ordinary to make up the complement of those ships in war time. A close survey had been made of every ship in ordinary, and the state of the ordinary was satisfactory, per England could send a considerable fleet to sea—much larger titan any other country could send, in fact almost as great as any other two countries. The Hon. Baronet was also wrong in saying that nothing had been done in the yards, for last sear work had been done on ships equivalent the cornpletien of three ships. Mr. HUME was sorry to see such concord in the House upon the vote before the Committee.—( A laugh.) Ile had expected that some Noble Lord or Honour-. able Member opposite would have required some special explanations respecting the great increase that was proposed in the number of ships and men. Ile kneve no reason for it—none was given but that France and Russia had increased their navies. Now, because they did so, was it absolutely necessary that we should increase ours? -If so, then, under the guise of peace we were keep ing up a war establishment. Tee country was to have no rest.—( Hear, hear.) It appeared that we were ar to illy at war, while her Majesty informed the House that she continued to receive from all the Powers of Europe assurances of the utmost regard. He had never heard from the other side any other complaint than of the lowness of the establishment. He submitted to the House whether in the present situation of the country, it was not necessary to look at what rendered the increased force necessary. It was the iutermedling policy of the Foreign Department of the Government.—( Hear, hear.) They were told that con cord existed amongst the Five Powers on the Eastern question. He did not believe it. He believed that great discord 'preveiled, and that rendered an increased force necessary. The war in the East would have been settled long ago, had e not-been for the interference of the Ambassador of England at Constantinople, which interference led to the disastrous battle of Nizam. We were acting com pletely according tt, the views and wishes of Russia, the old and implacable enemy of Turkey, who was still waiting her time to pounce upon Constantinople, or what other other part of Turkey might fall to her share. —( Hear, bear.) Ir was Russia, in conjunction with the Noble Lord ; who had kept up the civil war in Turkey for so long a time—that interference had entailed upon this country an increased expenditure of half a million annualiy, and obliged us to keep a fleet of thirty sail in the Mediterranean, and which was now to be increased to 40 sail of all classes of vessels, and that force was rendered necessary merely for the purpose of enforcing the bad and ruinous policy of the Noble Lord, at the instigation of Russia, upon Turkey. Of course, if they were to go on building new ships they must, perforce, vote money for their stores, 'eee., which, in - the present state of the finances of the country, was ruinous, and therefore it was that he objected to the increased number of men and ships. From all the public documents which were so freely given to the French Chambers, he believed there was nothing but discord between this country and France ; and that, had it not been for our unwise interference, which led to the battle of June last, the matter would have been wholly and en tirely settled between the Sultan and Mehemet Ali. Seven months bad now pa , sed over, during all which time the Noble Lord had been negociating, yet the two parties were in the same situation as before ; ,nay, he believed that they were in a much worse situation, for they had placed Mehe met Ali in such a position—in such a state of exasperation —that they would see results extremely detrimental to the Ottoman empire. There were rumours abroad—and he trusted the Noble Lord would be enabled to deny the al legations—but it was broadly asserted in France, that our Ambassador, or the Noble Lord himself, proposed to send the British fleet to Alexandria in order to destroy the Turkish fleet along with that of Mehemet Ali. He trusted these alle gations would be denied, but it was broadly stated, and that that course had not been taken. merely in consequence of t h e protest of the French Minister. It was stated in that country that Russian counsels were paramount in this country. He did not wonder at it, for the whole policy of that country was to cripple and destroy, as far as possible, the energies of Turkey ; and what could possibly please them better than another untoward event, such as that of Navarino. The Russian influencte being so strong, was set d o wn as the cause of the coolness between the Prench Government and our own. Nott.ing was to be so much deplored as that Inch a coolness should exist, for it could not exist without being highly detrimental to the cause of general liberty. It was said ti sat France had some views upon Egypt, but such a thing eras preposterous. Was it likely that she would take pose ession of a country _which she could not maintain in a striaggle with England, and which must prove a most rui nous expense. Let the Noble Lord change his policy, promote peace between the parties, and enable the Sul tan to put down that large army which he was oblige& to keep up through jea lousy o f Mehemet Ali, and then Russian policy would be overthrown. It appeared that our Consul, in consequence of the policy of the Noble Lord, had been debarred from that usual access to Mehemet Ali which had been en joyed by him during the last ten years; and he was re quired to put into writing easy communication that he had to make to the Court.— ..( Hear, hear.) Let the Noble Lord promote peace, nd Mehemet Ali would establish peace throughout the E ast. By driving him to be an open enemy, we put in jeoi 'tardy, the means of come munication to India, which he t emsidered to be of very great consequence. They nese t.r could expect to save money while the present policy weas kept up. We were in peace, yet all was preparing for war, and it was in vain to expect any reduction of the cape. nditure of the country. He objected to that policy, because it was throwing an expense upon the people of Engle nd, and he protested against it, because they were adding • half a million to the taxation of the country. Lord INGE STRIE begged to remind the Hon. Mem ber who had just sat down that the subject under discus sion was the Navy Estimatesof England—not the policy pur sued towards Turkey. The Secretary to the Admiralty had introduced those estimates in a speech of great good taste, for he had kept perfectly clear from all party ,allusions, which ought never to find their way into the dia. cession upon such a question.--(Cries of " Hear.") In was unnecessary for him at that time. to enter upon the subject of the grievances of the officers of the naval ser vice. That question bad been, he hoped, fully discussed in the naval and military commission which had been some time appointed by the House. Wit the permission of the House he would just refer to the c Imperative state of ef fectiveness of the French Navy as compared with that of Great Britain. He found that the French had in com mission two ships of 120 guns, one, of 100 guns, three of 90 guns, four of 86 guns. four of 80 guns, and frigates of 80 guns equal to ships of the line .—five of 58 guns, five of 52 gun s, and five of 46 guns, armed en flute, for the purpose of carrying troops to Algiers. The British Gove rnment had 22 line of-battle ships in commission. Of then e there were 3 three deckers lying in the ports, tweet' 120 guns, and one of 104 guns. These: ships, it should be remembered, were manned by one-third of their complement of men, and he was credibly informed that such was the state of the manning as rewarded one of these ships, the Britannia, that when the: Admiral went about the harbour, he was obliged to p-ut the petty officers to the oars. It appeared that the proportion of men to the rating of the vessels was higher in France than in that country, for the French had for their- 120 gun ships a com plement of 1,087 men; for their 100. ,gun ships 915 men; for their 90 and 86 gun ships 810 men ; and for their 80 gun ships 700 men. The: Committee would bear in mind that the French had a very large' proportion of frigates as compared with them. They had only nine frigates altogether in commission, of which only two were 50-gun ships, while the French had a much larger number, carrying heavier metal. Then as compared with Russia, it appeared that that nation had a. fleet of 28 sail of the line in the Baltic, and 14 sail of the line, many of them large and efficient ships, ',as the Black Sea. They 'bad also a great proportion of I. age and heavy fri gates. He agreed with the Right I lon. Gentleman that this country should be always prepar'ed to meet any ewe:- , gency that might arise ; and wlaen they saw other countries increasing their naval armaments, it was most important that they should do so likewise. The French bad, he believed, building four ships al 120 guns, twelve of 100 guns, nine of 90 guns, and two of 80 guns, whilst the English had building two ships of' 120 guns, three of 110 gong, one of 90, and six of 80 guts. In that calcu lation he had omitted taking into account anything below frigates. With reseect to steamboate, the French had actually twenty-five steam-1-s afloat in commission, while they had only, including the steanaers plying between Dub lin end Liverpool, Dublin and Holyhead, Dover and Calais, eleven or twelve, and of these there were but six which could be called heavy-armed steamers. With reTect to mere the French had as nearly as pos sible the same number of men employed in the marine service as she English. The total number for the French in. clue service was 34,017, while in England they I , l' l . 34,215. It seems most essential, that a maritime estien like Britain, which had extensive colonies to look after, and a trade in every part of the world, should have a large naval force to protect it. The French bad never vet assumed the character of a great maritime nvion, and they had a right to make observations wh ,,, they saw her nays amounting to neatly this ,ice as th ,, t r,f Great Britain- The French navy else received encouragement from . the King himself, for he had put °lig of his suns, the Prince de Join.. vitle, in command of a frigate. In Russia, the Eniperor male an annual inspection of his fleet; and went on bored of almost every ship in his service. These countries also lied great facilities for manning their sbips,,while he under stood the Powerful was six months makin up her com plement, end the Pique had been obliged to put to sea thirty or forty short. He thought it a bad feature that their ships were often obliged to put to sea short of their full corepcment. He under stood that a vessel leaving har bour the other day, was actually obliged to leave one of her anchors behind her. Mr. MORE O'FER RAL —She parted her ethic. Lord INGESTRIE thous ht that was a very satisfac tory reason. He regretted, however, to find that their best men were going into the American Navy. That was the opinion of a late writer, Captain Marryat, and his ( Lord Ingestrie'a) experience . fully corroborated that opi nion. The Right lion. Gentlemen opposite had spoken of the state of the ordinaries, but he (Lord Ingestrie) knew something of the state of the ordinary at Portsmouth. The total number of men there was 583, and deducting 200 who were necessarily otherwise employed, th, re were only 380 men to man the ship—would the Hon. and Gallant Admi ral say that that was a sufficient number for a flag-ship ? . Ile thought some system should be devised to encourage seamen remaining in the service, and a plan of registry, he thought, would be very efficient for thet purpose. The officers should also be placed upon a footing, fur there was great difficulty in obtaining a sufficient supply of midship men; and he under stood tiles tlie Revenge had so much d fliculty in procuring a supply, that she put to sea with only ten on board. During the last two or three years - the British flag had received several insults, and he hopad that a respectabl and proper armsment would be in future kept up, which could prevent a repetition of those insults. One instance was that of the Express packet, which had, after all, been lamely got out of ; another was the recent affair in the Mauritius, which had never been satisfactorily explained to that House or the country. Perhaps the Hon. and Gallant Admiral Would be able to inform them why there was so great a want of ships nt the blockade of Mexico, and also at the blockade of Buenos Ayres. It appeared to him that the Channel fleet ()eight to he manned so that reliefs might be sent to the steps stationed abroad, while it would give the officers and men an op. portunity of sailing in ships of the line. He was glad to hear the Right Hon: Secretary of the Admiralty stet e that they were likely to go on building large ships. He tnouget the country was much indebted to his R.ght Hon. Friend, the Member for Pembroke,, for adopting the resolution, which he regretted had been departed from, of buileitig three ships every year. He could not sit down without saying one word with regard to the pa tronage of the Nave. It might be thought a party question. but he . did not allude to it on these grounds. He referred particularly to Greenwich Hospi tal, and he must say that the promotion in that case had been a source of disgust to the Navy in general. That was an appointment which reflected anything but 'credit on the Admiralty. It had been said that there was no ddliculty in sending forty sail of the line to sea immedi ately. He was disposed to doubt that statement, both as regarded the manning and the number of strips. He was convinced that the House of Commons would never re use to accede to any vote, the object of which was to maintain the national honour without going the length of any wasteful extravagance.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He would not detain them longer, but had made these bservations with a desire to benefit the service to which lie belonged, and which he hoped and was confident would always do credit to the country —( Cheers.) Admiral ADAMS said he had had an admirable ex ample set him by his Hon. Friend the Secretary of the Admiralty, in abstaining from questions not relating to the navy. He also had no intention of going at all into the question of the appointment !to Greenwich Hospital, which had been spoken of with such heartfelt irritation, not because it did not relate to the finances, but because it interfered with his argument—(Laughter)—and he had before stated that Sir James Gordon was ap pointed when he was a captain, and lapsed when he became a flag officer.—( Hear, hear.) He would also mention that Sir Samuel Warren was appointed a flag officer, he was removed from Woolwich, and it was the practice with other officers under similar circumstances. The Noble Lord had talked about the state of the. French navy as being much superior to ours ; all he could say was that our force in the Mediterranean was always consider ably larger than theirs. In Toulon there were two ships within port, and some that had been employed elsewhere, and in all, he bsdieved, fourteen sail of the line, and it happened there was a larger force even than that when the French ships were employed in carrying troops from Toulon to Algiers, and at that moment there were two large ships fitting is the ports. Now, with respect to the ships and their degree of expertness, a gallant officer had said that the French ships had much increased in efficiency, but he would answer for it our ships were , as much superior to the French as they were in 1790. Sir R. Stopford said that the report of the supe riority of - the French ships was unfounded, and his lamented friend Sir F. Maitland had said that as far as regarded the working of the ships, his own ship never had any difficulty, and unless foreigners had adopted a new system, we must be, greatly superior to them. Now with respect to the observations of the Noble Lord, as to Russian ships, and his statement that the Russian fleet was in a wonderfully efficient state cone .setlering the little practice it had had. The Noble Lord did not remember that if their fleet was , not mamnuvred in the mariner it was, they would have no navy at all—but that was a different state of things to that el* this great maritime country, which had no less than 21)0,000 registered seamen, and with respect to the Tily- Loeuvring of our ships, whenever there were 12 sail of the line together in the Mediterranean for any length of tithe, they must always be manoeuvring, which would constantly keep them in an efficient state for any service they might he called upon to perform. Now with respect to the num ber of men of which the Noble Lord complained of having no information. As for the necessity of an increase the fact was, that it was decided, after great consideitation with Sir Thomas Hardy, that a certain number of men were required, from which a small reduction had been made, and in that manner the ships in the Mediterranean squadron were manned. He would not go into the dis cussion whether or not it was better at preserit to have a fell war complement, but surely there could not be that state of things that, without negotiation or preparation, we could be plunged in war. It was very true that our Admi rals would rather go into action with five well-manned ships than six ill-manned. But there was no want of good men, and especially of young men, brought up to fishing ; and in the sea-ports, with landsmen, there might be got in a short time more than enough. In the stmt manner in the East Indies, they could get any num ber they wanted, as the merchant-seamen were constantly quarrelling with their captains, and going on shore, and ten dering their services. It was the same in the West Indies; and our ships seldom returned without being full of men. The Noble Lord had also talked of the necessity for a force upon our own shores for our protection ; if it were neces s-try it might be had—for there were a considerable number of ships, and no less than eight ships of the line had been in our parts last summer, and they were by no means short of complement, but as the ships of our merchant marine in creased, they required a much larger number of men, which, if required in the navy, as they could not serve in both, the merchants were in the habit of raising their wages to induce them to enter their service—hut it was quite unnecessary to enter into that discussion. Having mentioned the subjects of armament and comple ment, which he had done because his Hon. Friend the Se cretary for the Admiralty had not, it was hardly necessary for him to say anything more ; but with respect to the size of ships, so long as they had so large a number of line-of battle ships he must express his regret at the manner in which the superiority of frigates had been urged. There never was a time when France bad larger ships than o urs , and it was much better to use small line-of -battle ships than to cut them down to make them frigates, for he maintained that they were more effective, and he certainly thought it was by no means necessary to follow.the plan. of the French in building large frigates when line-of -battle shies were more effective. The Right Hon. Member for Stamford had stated that the ships in the Mediterranean were short of the complement assigned them; he could only say that was not the case, for 'when, a few days ago, an opportunity had offered of sending men there, it was found that, of men and boys, they had a supernumerary number, and he perfectly agreed with the Hon. Baronet that those ships ought to be kept with a full complement. Some other observations had been made, and questions put, by the Noble Lord, but he regretted he did not remember any more at that moment. C3ptain A'CO URT said that in bis opinion the ap pointment of Admiral Fleming was among the most shameful abuses in the history of official appointments. - He a4ced what were the services which entitled him to that di , tinctien ? It was painful to him to make these obser vatiens, hut they were forced upon him, and however pain_ fel it w , 1% he would not shrink from his duty. If the Governorship of Greenwich Hospital were, as it had always been considered, an honourable retre.t for wounded flsg officers, Admiral Fleming had no earthly claim, for however long and painfully he might have served, he had never paitaken in an gallant action in the last war, and was therefore clearly ineligible, when be saw many gal- Isnt officers who had then fought and bled, who stood senior to him. He would venture to say, that no act had ever created greater dissatisfaction in tre navy than this appointment; and how could it be other wise vv . .ien they saw the great object of their ambition, which they thought' was only to be obtained by gallant ser vices, bestowed upon an officer who had never had the good for une to distinguiSh himself in action. If, indeed, a s was said by a Noble Lord in another place, distin guished gallantry in naval, officers was to be no recom mendation, cr only a secondary one for the Government of Greenwich Hospital, it had better be abolished as a use less sinecure, than made the reward of political services, With regard to the state of the navy, in hiS opinion, our shores were unprotected, while abroad our ships were too few and too small. How could it be thought th&t. our 75-gun ships, ill- manned, could be placed in com petition with the 85 or 90-gun ships, with full comple ments, of the Foreign Powers ? It was unjustifiable and cruel to place British seamen in a position where, what ever their zeal and skill might be, they could not have the i:bysical power to uphold the glory and - honour of their c: untry.—(Clicers.)- f 1 the the occurrences is the Amt,ican woe wt,. the eves of ciuntrymen to the impolicy .of expc,:i, 6 our 'small ships to the superior ones of the enemy. Then as to the manning, ~. .`~ ,•• He hesrd of forty sail ef. the line being- fitted o with the greatest crave.—(hear, hear.) Now he con • tended that, even with impressment, ;we could not lit uwt 20 sail of the lie in a twelvemonth. sad then in case pf wee what would become of the Colonies of the country ? Then he was tole of the expeoee It was true that a considerable outlay would he necessary, but the money which had been uselessly squandered on th ft coast of Spain, would have been sufficient for vie purpose ; and then there was the expense of never ending commission, which were issued in the country, and kept the navy in a state of inefficiency. Looking at the agitated state of the world, he was of opinion that war might come all of a sudden, and if so, be hoped that the statement of the Admiralty would be amply realised, but he feared they would be geez tfy dis appointed. —k Cheers.) Sir THOMAS COCHRANE (who spoke very indis tinctly) said the question of Naval Estimate's divided itself into two parts—first, with reference to the aimarneaits on foot in other nations ; and secondly, with regard to our own force. On referring to our own Naval Estimate a, he was told that the number of efficient seamen voted Isst year was 35,260, and he was also told that 1,000 mon bad been added this year, for the express pur pose of increasing the force of the vessels in Commission. Now, he denisd that the efficient naval force, last year, amounted to 35,000 men—he equally de nied the trifling addition of 1,000 to that force during the present year. It would be in the recollection of the House that it was only. of late years that the packet :ser vice had been handed over to the Admiralty, and this service never could be available to increase the naval-force of the country. It should also he ree(elected that a consl- dcrable number of men were employed in the surveying ser vice. The total number of men emgloyed in the two services last year amounted to 2,788, and this year they amounted to 3 993. consequently one third of the number of these additional 1,000 men had been added to there two services. Of the force remain ing, 2,000 were boyle and, taking two boys as one man, it waled make the actual efficient naval force of the country amount to only 31.07 . 2 Olen. There was, moreover, en. other deduction, which went to a great extent in weakening the naval force or the country, and that was. the number of Small craft emp:eyed in Africa and the We t ladies in the suppression of the." Slave-trade. It was true that this was a service highly honourable to this; cnentry—that it should be the only country employing a. force and expending its revenue in petteng down this; abominable traffic —( Hear, hear,) But glorious as it was t.) this country so to exerei.e its influence it did most materially deteriorate from the : efficiency of the na val ser vice, as these vessels could be considered as neither more nor less than a sort of maritime police. He felt be bad a perfect right to deduct five ships from the stated naval force of the country, because when the Admirals were sent out they were to have bad two legates, and instead me this they asked to have ships with two decks, but without eh eie lower deck guns, and without their full complement of men.- The Admiralty had last year fairly explained the state of this case. When, all of a sudden, whether urged by the representations on that side of the House or not, he knew their ships were armed and minced as ships of the line, and their ships formed part of the squadron sent against China, when, by the t.lundee of their cannon, they were to destroy those unfortunate Chinese whom they could not previously succeed in poisoning by their opium. This showed the necessity of keeping up an efficient naval force; for if the Government had not ordered their vessels to be armed, without probably keying any very clear ideas at the time as to why or wherefore, they would not have had these vessels to send on this service. The three guard ships, he would contend, were not effective. When the Right Honourable Baronet the A:ember for Pembroke was; at the head of the Admiralty, he had establ;shed a 011ie; of ships called demonstration shies, wbich were always in a state of preparation. What had become of these demonstration ships ? They were told last year that they had' been found practically of no use, when wanted they had to undo all that bad been done—( Hear, hear, from Mr. C. Wood)—arid that it was found preferable to have their masts and rigging ready, and the ships laid up. No doubt this might be the case, but it followed as & corrollary from that proposition, that these three-deckers were not in the same position as the demonstration, ships. He recollected in 1815, on the return of Napoleon from Elba, only ten days elapsed between the time, when Sir Benjamin Hallowell hoisted his flag on board the Royal Sovereign, and the time when that ship sailed out of Plymouth Sound. Would such be the case now ? la looking at the force of other nations, he found that the French had sixteen ships :of the line, seven frigates 50 guns.each, little inferior to our smaller ships of war, and that the men in the employ of the navy of France amounted to 32,000 men, exclusive of those employed in the packet and surveying service. With rea . gard to Russia, he found that in the Baltic they had one ship of 120 guns ; three of 100, seven of 84, and nine teen of 74, making altogether thirty sail of the line, in ad• dition to which she had in the Black Sea sixteen sail of the line. It had been said, last year, that these ships were hardly sea-worthy, but he had been informed by a gentle man who had seen them, that he had been astonished both at the efficiency of the ships and the expertness of the men. He would ask the House, if, looking to France alone, they could be prepared to say that it would be pos sible, at this moment, in the event of a war, to reduce• one single ship from the present establishment for the defence of our own coasts ? He considered a war with France would be the greatest calamity that could hap pen to the world at large, and a fearful responsibility would rest on those who should attempt to sow discord between the two nations.—( Cheers.) But looking to Russia and America, and considering the delicate nature of the ques tion at present pending between this country and the United States, he would ask if we ought to be content with• the present amount of our naval force ? Neither the Pre sident nor the Government of the United States wished to go to war with this country ; but the Government of that country were weak when it came in contest with the pre judices of the people. The President bad said that be bad requested the Governor of Maine to u - ;e moderation ; but if Maine got into a war. the States must at all hazards support it. The House should recollect that the insolence of a democracy always rose in proportion to' the inability of opposing them, and nothing but the power of carrying war in a few weeks into the heart of their own country could prevent them from committing acts of ag gression, if the decision of the pending question should be against their prejudices. When they remembered the shoreness of the season in which troops 'could be sent to that country, he felt they ought to be prepared ; and looking at the position of Russia, France, and America be thought the House must admit that the Navy Estimate; of t his country were not on an adequate footing. He would read to the House some documents connected with the naval force of the country at present, and in former times What was the state of our commerce in 1790? At that period our trade had been confined to the' East Indies, the West Indian Islands. the Coasts of Africa, and the United States of America. We bad then, however, 15,000 vessels, and the value of our exports amounted to 18,544 0001., and our imports to 17,783,000 2 We had now, on the contrary, a host of colonies—we bad for instance, Malta, the Cape of Good Hope, Trinidad, and the greater part of Demerara. But what was more, we had the commerce of the whole coast of Spanish America, to every part of which our trade ex tended, and the ocean might now be said to be • whitened with the sails of England. Our foreign commerce at present employed 26,000 ships. Our exports amounted to 105,170,000/, and our imports to 61,268,000/. Our whole trade employed 38,000 vessels of n early 11,000,000 of tons. That was the state of our trade as compared with that of the year 1790. What was the state of our naval force previous to that period? In each of the years 1785, 1786, 1787, and 1788, we had employed 18,000 men. In 1789 we had 19,000. He would shove how the naval force had been formerly employed. He could not be mistaken on that point, for he had a tran script of an estimate presented in 1814. At that period' their whole force abroad amounted only to 19 small vessels. They had then in the Medway but two sail of the line. They had but one in the Downs and one in the Thames. They had then, however, in all 68 men of war. In 1790, in consequence of a dispute with Spain respecting 11 miserable island ,on the Am er i can coast, Spain' refused to yield to the claims of England, and this' country had accordingly sent out an armament, and-he found that the naval expenses of that year amounted to no less a sum than 3,000,0001. We had sixty-eigh t vessels occupied at the time. He would now show the House how the naval force of the country had been main" tallied in former times, and he thought that the principle then adopted on the subject was the true one. He should first observe, that it was to the maintenance of their Diva' establishment they owed the respect which they naturalli commanded, as being the first maritime nation in the world. Those who had governed the country in other times knew this well, and he trusted that the House would not be backward if it should be necessary to follow such an W 2Po h roo a t tyee w cat a roa s r., t I,, h g, e aa ; c is o no n t d she u en e tst time of fef Olivert h English ec r am w ril elGovern mento2elxlni6psnlc2ca.trhl)e. built. the ri naval letd. a l lAopglodani•teis:b ships sh what to nbgwelaasn repaired, e o u e o l would command, conduct dmt respect so that he ore 1691 ? He would allude to an address of mon t fae h nw e Pda H ro o lni v ae s ms e e t tn o ot tb b-ine - 1 • sovereign of that day. Parliament then stated that thee considered it to be their ditty to represent to hi , Majesty' that the power of England depended under d God, chiefly t _ highest importance to the security on its strength at sea; county it of hisnc of the ge l‘ r l u zk i j d, e .,i,o - d t t: y s w c o ( l , l a i s tl id b e e r r it l i e n a l s , t T o h e e ive li - o t a h . e s m uh e j ta : ec b t er t s r p Y : h ; t e •d a ily o b n i : s by calling on the House to imitate the energetic course whit+ the Commons of Engla n d hadadopted i° former times Lord PALMERSTON said, in his opinion, the eel' stderatiotis which ought to guide a Government as to the navy were three-fold. It was one question what should i be the a mount o f t h e s hi ps possessed b y the country, a nd that considerati n oueht undoubtedly to depend on -be general view of the naval rt sources of all those other na tions which had naval establishments It was an entireli different question what portion of that force had from timid to time been put into commission, and that depended 0° the varying circumstances of the d a y. Th ere was a nother question—how that force should be distributed ? and that also must be decided according to circumstances yet rita veriable :,;;(1 tire ertain, trml)(sNlry ;o:d N') Governownt twidn g !h e frr.t twe thentis to pace the aggregate amount of the navy c' n such a footing as would be consistent with the perznanen r V