The Sun. — London, England, 1847-03-06 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE 61 7 7,57th5, March 5. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat uu tho Wool sack shortly after Five o'clock. NATIONAL EDUCATION. Lord BPOUGHAM laid on the table a petition from James Bentley, of Aldgate Chambers, in the city of London, in reerence to the subject of national educa tion, and said that the petitiJner had been engaged in inquiries on the subject of his petition, and had acquired a ("Teat deal of i r .f or rnation, together wit h a vast amount of 'facts, which was well deserving attention. POOR-LAW IN IRELAND. Lord BROUGHAM also presented petitions from the inhabitants of Cashel and of Thurles, in Ireland, com plaining of the mode of rating for the poor.law cess. 'The Noble and Learned Lord stated that he had several similar petitions, with which he would not trouble their Lordships. CASE OF MRS. SHUT PLEWORTH. The NOBLE AND LEARNED Loan also laid on the table a petition from Dr. Quale, of Louvain College, in Belgium, and a member of the College of Surgeons, in London, complaining of the treatment of a lady named Shuttle worth, who had been removed from the custody of her friends and placed in a lunatic asylum. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. The Earl of CLARENDON presented a petition from the board of guardians of Tavistock against the the law of settlement, and praying to be empowered to give out-door relief to the unemployed poor. DISTRESS IN IRELAND. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition from the rate payers of Ballinrobe, praying their Lord ships to adopt speedy measures for the re:icf of Irish distres9. LABOURING POOR (IRELAND) BILL. The report on this Bill was brought up by the Earl of Shaftesbury. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, in giving no tice that this Bill would be read a third time on Mon day next, he might take that opportunity of stating to the Noble Lord (Brougham), in reference to his ques tion last night affecting Captain Wynne, that several papers and returns had been moved for in the other House of Parliament, and among the rest a return of all the names of the men who had been dismissed from the public employment, these amounting to about 1,000 or 2,000. Earl RADNOR-9,ooo.—(Laughter.) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—WeII, perhaps the return was not the more possible by the alteration.— (Laughter.) But he must say that Captain Wynne was still retained in the public service. Lord BROUGIIA.M . was perfectly satisfied with the answer of the Noble Marquis, but he must say, that anything less in keeping with the case than the names of the parties dismissed, he never heard ; in fact, it raised an entirely different issue. Earl RADNOR wished to know whether the Noble Marquis could state what prospect there was of a diminution being effected in the number of men em ployed on the public works in Ireland? The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was not the least surprised at the question put by his Noble Friend, and not at all surprised that much anxiety prevailed on the subject to which it bad reference. lle could assure his Noble Friend that he participated in that anxiety. It undoubtedly had been the intention of the Government that the public works should be gradually discontinued; and the reason they bad not carried out their intentien was owing to the increasing destitu tion in Ireland, and the scarcity, or rather the absolute failure, of any other means by which they could gain their support. Another reason was the dit- Acuity, or rather the impossibility, of carrying at once into operation those measures which the Govern ment had proposed as a substitute, one of which had recently been pawed, and no time had been lost, in forming committees under the Bill. But if any new works were commenced a report of their nature and their object would be laid before their Lordships. He hoped that, at no distant period, a diminution in those public works would take place, and that steps would be taken to put an end to the abuses which had been stated to exist. Lord BROUGHAM entertained the same opinion as his Noble Friend (Earl Radnor), as he considered they had got into a plan, the inevitable consequence of which was that it could not stop where it was. Lord MOUNTCASHEL said it was to the interest of the landlords to diminish the expense of those works as much as possible, but when they found people dying oil the road sides, in the fields, and in wretelhd hovels, he anticipated that they would not act wisely if they stopped those works suddenly, and the' eby deprived those of a subsistence who were at present employed. After a few words from Earl RADNOR, the report was agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time on Monday next. SECONDARY PUNISHMENTS—CUSTODY OF OFFENDERS AND PRISONS' BILLS. Earl GREY rose to move the second reading of the Custody of Offenders' Bill. The object of the Bill itself was but of little importance, being to assimilate the law of Ireland relating to offenders to the law as it existed on the subject in Great Britain. By the exist ir.g British law it was at the discretion of. the Crown to send offenders either out of the country, to the prisons of Pentonville or Milibank, or to the hulks. But the power which the law of Great Britain gave to the Crown did not exist in Ireland; there was no power to dispose of offen. ders but to send them to Van Dieman's Land or Norfolk Island. To effect the assimilation of the law of the two countries on this subject was the whole scope of the pre sent Bill. There was another Bill, the second reading of which ho also proposed to move to-night, but in itself it was not of much importance. The object of it was to effect a necessary change in the constitution of the go verning bodies of the prisons of Pentonville, Milbank, and Parkhurst. That though these Bills were not of much importance by themselves, he thought it right at the present time to call the attention of their Lordships to the whole subject of secondary punishments, because these were not the only legislative measures of the kind that would be required. The change which had taken place in the country's policy had no less an object in view than changing the whole system of punishment hitherto adopted—no less than the virtual abolition of transpor tation. By law, the Executive Government might make this change without applying to Pediment ; but considering, the importance of the step, he thought it better to bring the subject formally before the House, as he considered the Government would not be performing its duty in doing so without distinctly calling the attention of Parliament to it. There was no subject of greater importance than the treatment of felons. It was necessary for the existence of society that the punishments should be such as to deter offenders from the commission of crime, and at the same time such as were calculated to reform and improve the unhappy object of the punishment. This was the great ob ject that legislators had to keep steadily in view. These were objects of the highest importance, at the same time no less important eas the difficulty of findin g the remedy. It was a subject on which various plans had been adopted by the vations civilised nations of the world, and he believed that nowhere could it be said that that great and difficult problem—the discovery of the best mode of reclaiming offenders that that great problem had received a complete and satis factory solution, Bet although the experience of late years, both in that and the other countries of Europe, enakleil them to judge better than they could have done a few years ago shat measures it would be the more expedient to adopt, they were still far, very far, from being in a condition to place the subject on a perfectly satisfactory footing. He had already stated that in the change which her Majesty's Government had determined to introduce—had considered ought to be introduced—into the policy of the country, that change extended to no less than the virtual abolition of transportation, because when he said transportation, he did not include the punishment of offenders at Bermuda and Gibraltar. It was one of the main features of transportation, that in the majority of cases the persons on whom that sen tence had been passed, where parties were removed to a remote part of the world, at the termination of their aentences remained in the colony, and did not return to this counts ey; thus the country was relieved of the presence of those criminals, which, as he had already said, was one of the main objects of this punishment. But in Gibraltar and in Bermuda this was not the case ; on the contrary, criminals were not allowed to remain in those places, but were brought back to England at the public expense. The punishment at Gibraltar and Bermuda was therefore to be considered only as an extension of the hulk system, not as a punishment of transportation. It was only that a e. rtain number of criminals who would have been otherwise sent to the hulks at Portsmouth and Woolwich, had been sent to Bermuda and Gi bralter, because their labour there was found exceedingly valuable to the country. But, defining in this manner what he meant by transportation, he said that they proposed to di' away with the system of transportation ae hitherto adopted. He could not be lieve that any of their Lordships who had read the late papers on this subject, and compared them with the papers of former years—that any of their Lordships who had looked at the measure adopted on this subject, would think that it was not an absolute necessity—he could not use a lighter word—an absolute necessity to effect the change of policy which the Government intended to adopt. Instead of a recapitulation of what bad passed upon that subject, it would be enough to show their Lordships that such a necessity really existed. Be would remind their Lordships that the system of transportation was very different formerly from that system which had of late years existed. The convicts sent to New South Wales and Van Dieman's Land were not kept in the charge of the Government, but they were sentto privat e i n di v id ua l s , t o w ho m th e y were pl a ced in the situation—he might almost say—of slaves, because they were compelled to serve those persons, when, accord ing to th c a r a erlatio . ns, wages were not eliow, , d to be paid and they only received their food and ciething, and in the event of Le st or neglect of orders their punish ment was of the a msummary kind, for they were flog ged by order of aystem ag•airr e . It was to all intents and purposes s slavery which then existed in the colonies. In the which he had the honour of t being 37 a Committee, of a member, was appointed in the other House of Parliament to consider this subject. That Committee sat b ot h in the session of 1837, and the firllowing session, a n d i t too a of evidence on t he sub j ect. T he result to ":a deal which rt Committee cam e was, he thou g ht, as wel l as he conld the re member, without a sing le difference of o pinion among the Committee—which was numerous, and cumposed of Sir R. Peel, Lord John Russell, and various other gentle men—and it was must ably presided over by Sir we Molesworth—was that there was an absolute neces sity for doing away with the system of assignment. The system was one of the grossest inequality . and injustice, for it was a matter of perfect accident whether that which was intended to be in the nature of a punish- ! meat, for if the man got a good master— ono disposed to t be indulgent—be was not punished at all. Criminals it 11 .1641 sentenced in this country for some most heinoui offences, if they were good mechanics or workmen, instead of finding themselves worse off than they had hoen in this ettuntry, they found their situations infinitely improved. Ile remembered the case of some convicts sent fr-in this cuuctry ; they were agricultural labourers sentenced in consequecce of the riots of 1830, when so severe a distress existed in Kent and Dorsetshire. Many of them were extremely good aoricidtund labourers, and consequen• ly their services were much sought after. When they were assigned their masters were extremely anxious to keep them in ood humour ; and these men, whom the Government meant to punish, were far better off than they had ever been in England. The cause of these riots was the severe pressure and distress which existed ; and they who had Lem receiving 7s. nr 85. per week wages, and living on the most scanty diet, received the most enor mous rations out in their place of transportation. In some cases it was no punishment at all, while in other cases it was a punishment of the severest kind. In many cases the assigned convict was a frightful slave to his master, who, if he were brutal or urgent, might subject him to a continued system of annoyance and ill-treatment, and if he were stung into mu tiny and resistence, he was liable to be dragged before a ma gistrate, who, upon the representation of the master, sentenced him to the most cruel corporal punishment. The returns on this subject showed that this punishment was one of the great est suffering. This punishment was without its moral effect in deterring crime, while those, who from the circums•ance he had described, were better treated, wrote to their friends, tell ing them how well they were off, and holding forth induce ment to them, to the commission of crime, to enable them to come out to them. When he was Under-Secretary for the Colonies he had opportunities of seeing several of these letters, which painted the condition of the writers in very glowing co lours. No doubt these represents. ions were sometimes false, but their tendency was injurious. The Committee of 1838 had some to a determination that the system of assignment should be done away with, and a resolution to that effect was laid before the House of Commons. Measures were then taken to abolish that system, and it was determined that a much smaller number should be sent out than before. The system which Lord John Russell then proposed to introduce was to extend the system of imprisonment at home. But in 1841 it was moved that it was inexpedient that there should be such a number of convicts in the hulks. That motion was resisted on the part of the Go vernment, but it was carried by a great majority of the House of Commons. He believed this occurred when there were few in the House, and in the month of March, and it happened to wards the conclusion of the Melbourne Administration; and no measure was adopted for carrying that resolution into effect during the Melbourne Administration. But there was a change of Government. It was determined that the views of the House of Commons should be acted upon, and after a good deal of discussion, it was decided that the convicts should be sent abroad, except a comparatively small number, such as were more proper subjects of the discipline of Pentonville, Parkhurst, and the hulks, and those whose age made it expedient to send them out of the country ; but the rest were sent either to the Bermudas or to Norfolk Island. In consequence of that measure a large number were sent to these parts. He confessed that at the time he entertained the strongest convietions that this would lead to a very great evil, that great mischief would result to those colonies unless there was a system for carrying on pu nishment adequate to the occasion. Their Lordships would remember, too, that at that great distance from the control of Government, anything unusual, or requiring attention, could only receive that after a year's delay and writing home to the Government. Looking at that their Lordships must feel that the difficulty of curving out a system of penal labour was great indeed. In I'S-13', therefore, although previously the system had been adopted to a considerable extent, a large number of convicts were yet to be sent abroad. If. however, he said transportation to Van Dieman's Land had been confined to a small number of persons, he believed that the impression produced on the imagination of men respecting punishment inflicted by society, and at a dis tance. and the regret of being lost sight of by their friends would have counterbalanced the evil, in a great mea'ure, of carrying out that system of punishment at a distance. But when this system was still applied generally—not to a few hundreds, as proposed originally, but to many thousands—when a system of this kind was carried out in Bermuda, he believed it was utterly impossible that any other result could have been anticipated than that which actually occurred. Now, he thought the papers which had been lately laid on the table would prove to their Lordships that the anticipations which had been formed with respect to this system were but too well founded ; but he would not disgust their Lordships by the horrible, the monstrous details of the abuses which had sprung up in Norfolk Island. A state of things had been proved, upon evidence, to exist thee, the particulars of which could not be doubted by the general effect of that evidence, which made it perfectly clear that a system had been allowed to grow up in that small island, the details of which, were too horrible to mention.—(Hear.) It had been proved to the dis grace of the British name, that a system existed there which was a disgrace to the British flag. Very shortly after he was appointed to the office which he had the honour to hold, he found that the condition of Van Dieman's Land was so con elusive against any continuation of the system, that he in structed the new Governor, before he left this country, to break up the establishment there, and he was happy to find that his predecessor (Sir E. Wilmot) had anticipated that order, as he had taken measures to break up the convict esta blishments in the island. The fearful outbreak in the island would perhaps have been successful, had not some troops op portunely arrived; had they not, they might have over powered the small body of troops, and destroyed the free in- Habitants of the colony. The breaking up of the establish ment was, therefore, inevitable; but he was concerned to state that Van Dieman's Land was not in a much better state ; it was in a state fearful to enter into, and those of their Lordships who had looked at the evidence could not fail to be dissatisfied with the present condition of that colony. He had often heard of the abuses of the hulks, but he must say the worst of them was well managed compared with the colony of Van Dieman's Land. He had :every evidence that the system was as bad as it could well be. For though the governor and superinterdents of the colony did not altogether support this extreme view of the state of things, Sir Eardley Wilmot and Sir John Franklin, admitted that the system was most injurious. From other quarters he had received accounts to a similar effect. Last year the Noble Lord the President of the Council presented a petition signed by the Bishop of the colony and a great number of the most respectable inhabitants, calling attention to the deplorable state of things. It was signed by from 1.71 5 0 to 1,800 of the colonists, who described in the strongest terms the condition to which the colony had been reduced, and that there was no security for I, fe and property. He had also seen within the last few months persons from the colony who, to the fullest extent, supported this view of the state of things. lie had seen the Protestant Bishop, as well as the Roman Ca tholic Bishop, and both the night Reverend Bishops stated that the future prospects of the colony were frightful to con template. Then, with regard to the expenditure which had been necessary to effect this system of transportation, it was so large, that he was convinced, had it been applied under a well conceived system of em ploying the convicts in this country, it would have been sufficient to erect places of punishment of the best character for those who offended the laws. Under the present system the colony had been almost ruined. But further, he was forced to say that in consequence of this system it was too true that a great many of the most valuable settlers in Van Dieman's Land had been forced to quit. A most serious blow had been given to the property of the colony by this large in flux of convicts which was ptured into it. Van Dieman's Land had been formerly a thriving and prosperous colony, but from the time that this enormous influx of convicts was poured into it, the state of things was greatly altered. He was far from attributing that change to that circumstance alone. He knew that commercial distress existed in this country—that there was a reaction from over speculation, and from varicus other causes of that kind. No doubt the distress in Great Britain bad assisted the change in the colony, but it was also certain that the system of sending large numbers of con victs to Van Diemen'. Land was one cause of the failing in that prosperity. And it had been said thct the deterioration in that colony was not so much owing to the system as to the inability of the persons by whom that system had been carried out ; it had been said that a greater degree of energy on the part of the principal officers, to whom the Go vernment had committed the superintendence of Van Dieman's Land and Norfolk Island anti instructed the management of the convicts, would have produced a different result. He could not adopt that opinion. In the first place, her Majesty's Go vernment had the choice of the agents to whom that superin tendence was committed ; but, without pretending to deny that there might have been faults on the part of the authorities —a question on which he did not wish to give any opinion either one way or the other—but without pretending to deny that such might have been the case, he still was strongly of opinion that it was impossible for them in the difficult position in which they were placed to have carried out this system so as to have led to a satisfactory result, because, if their Lord ships would allow him to remind them, the carrying into effect the system of penal labour had always been found most diffi cult and unsatisfactory, whether that system had been tried in the colonies of this country or in America. Whether it had been tried in this country or in America, it had always been found that any system of punishment hitherto adopted had met with very great difficulties and obstructions. It Lad already appeared that these difficulties and obstructions had been multiplied tenfold when the system had to be worked by a delegated authority, removed to as great a distance as Van Dieman's Land, or Norfolk Island, from this country. And from those who had the responsibility of carrying into effect. and ordering the system, and who should look well into the practical operation. It should be closely watched from day to day; and whenever abuses seemed to be rising, they should be instantly checked; and when any errors arose—and errors were inseparabl e f rom a system o f t h e ki n d— corre ction s h o uld be instantly made by those in authority. Such an authority as the Lieutenant -Governor of Van Dieman's Land could not be sufficient ; for, in the first place, he was bound to consult his inferior officers, and the Deputy Governor, before he could make any material alteration of the plans or made any material change, was bound to wait until he could receive authority from home to the purpose. In Norfolk Island this was still nearer the case. The administrator of punishment in Norfolk Island was the delegate of a delegate. The Governor of Van Die man's Land was the authority to whom he immediately looked, and over him was her Majesty's Government at home. The communication between Van Dieman's Lard and Norfolk Island was very irregular and slow, and it was kept up by sailing vessel?, so that the opportunities of communication were very rare, and in Norfolk Island, there being no free inhabi tants, so that if any of the officers there found anything going wrong, there was no means of obtaining any Improvement ex cept by the slow process of appealing to the separate authori ties at Van Dieman's Land or here. Again, one of the great dif ficulties was the difficulty ficulties of any good system of of finding proper agents to carry on the executive part. When he spoke of proper agents, be meant more especially the subor dinate agents. 11Iost of their Lordships had had more or less knowledge of the means by which prisons were conducted in this country, and they all knew that the efficiency of a prison discipline depended almost as much upon the in ferior officers as upon the governors. If they had not trustworthy officers it was impossible for the best governors to carry on a good sys tem of discipline. In Van Dieman's Land there was great difficulty in obtaining trustworthy officers ,• and that diffi culty was infinitely greater than over here. In IS orfolk Island it was greater still. In the first place, it was impossible, be cause the gale of remuneration was much higher there than it was in this country, and the salary which in this country would secure the services of a first-rate person in his rank of life would, in the colonies, be wholly insufficient. Their Lordships were aware that even the lowest artificers received very high wages in the colonies, and many of those persons who had been sent out by the Government as officers over the convicts had been tempted out cf the service by the superior offers made to them by merchants to go to them in the capacity of clerks. Even supposing that the Government were to go to a Neater expense than it did at present, it would then find sitarist the impossibility of obtaining proper agents for their purpose. But now that in smaller colonies, like Van Dieman's La id, where he was afraid party spirit and party division ran operateoreninfitZ very high, it was extremely d.tfit•ul., to get overseers who not e th e not generally implicated in these local dis putes,enced by wiser considerations which naturally seers who human e p m o i w n .e d r . to A r t em th o e ve sa an rn y e o t f im th e es t e he over go vernor h ad reversed by the Secret ar y might b e • and his act was always liable to be could only suspend hi ineffictent, as existed at home. He induce him to proceed"cnyal ofState ; which would naturally power on f a very clear case; thus de unmediately suspending an priving him of the inefficacious functionary. Bes ides, if an Overseer died, it was Sti.t, LONDON, very difficult to replace hint. Moreover, when they came to look at Norfolk Island, they found that they had a very - rious difficulty to encounter, for few men, such as they would wish to employ, would like to live there. Exc:uded from civilised society, wi!hout any one with whom to associate hut those who were employed in the same capacity as them selves or the criminals 'hey were to gnat d,—he believed that it was quite impossibic for men so situated, not to be deteriorated in character. It was impossible that their moral qualities should not suffer from the atmosphere in which they were placed. He believed that the reason of government, in this particular, being more easy at home was, that they could em ploy men as overseers, who were not excluded from all social intercourse, or compelled to associate only with those who were employed in a similar capacity, or those over whom they were placed. This was the reason of the inefficiency in the government of convicts at home. It was this consideration that led her Majesty's Government to the conclusion that punishment at home could be effected more safely at a cheaper cost, and more efficiently, at home than in a distant colony. From a system of punishment properly conducted at home they would derive this advantage, that they would have the power of immediately checking abuse, the power of instantly ejecting officers that proved inefficient, the power of correcting any errors that might be made in the general regulations—all those advantages which were altogether wanting to the colonies would be enjoyed to the fullest extent, by carrying out a sys tem of punishment at home. Such then, was the determina th nof the Government. It was proposed still to look to penal labour and imprisonment as the elements of punishment. It was proposed to consider whatever would tend to the ref ,rma tion of the offender; and therefore it was de ermined that every criminal sentenced to transportation should undergo a period longer or shorter, as the crime might be, of what had been called separate imprisonment—that no criminal sentenced to transportation should escape what was called se- parate confinement. Their experience for the last three or four years had satisfied them of the good effect likely to be produced by this system. It was most efficient in those who seemed least capable of impression, and beneficial on those most capable of reformation—( Hear)—but he thought that that was a mode of punishment which ought to be carried out with great caution.—(llear hear.) It could not be carried out to a very great extent, and he thought the Noble Duke, from his observation, as a Commissioner of Pentonville, would concur with him that it could not be car- ried beyond a very short period. It had been proposed, there fore, that every offender should undergo a period of separate confinement, not longer than eighteen months. That was the longest term for an offence of the gravest character. Lord BROUHAM.—Eighteen months continuously? Earl GREY.—Yes, continuously. The medical officers of Pentonville had watched narrowly the effect of the punish ment of separate confinement, and they reported that eighteen months was safe. Mr. Brodie and Dr. Ferguson had re ported that separate confinement could not be continued be yond eighteen months ; it was safe within that time, and that with due care over the condition of the patient, as the period advanced, it might be inflicted with safety. It was clear, however, that if separate confinement should be adopted that alone would fall short of the object, in the case of an offender guilty of a grave offence. Let them take, for instance, a case of aggravated manslaughter, where the jury has hesitated whether they ought to convict the man of murder or of manslaughter, and when the man was sentenced to trans portation for life, it'was clear in that case that eighteen months separate confinement would be very inadequate. It was pro posed, therefore, under separate confinement that every of fender should undergo a further punishment by labour on the public works. He was aware that mode of punishment was liable to great objections. Formerly it was carried on in the hulks, and it laboured under great objections, and these. too, very just. But he could not help thinking that these objections append rather to the manner than the nature of that punish. ment.—( Hear, hear.) lie did not believe that penal labour, when the offenders were allowed to associate together, had a tendency eo raise any such objection as had been taken. The objection to the system formerly adopted was, that coercion by the lash was the only thing which the prisoners in the hulks h d to fear, and the superintendence on board those ships was most inadequate from the want of a sufficient number of offi cers. The whole system, in short, required very great im urovement ; but of late years many improvements had been effected, and they would be carried much turther. Now they proposed that convicts should be employed on the public works under a system by which he hoped the evils which generally arose by the associating together of large bodies of convicts would be, to a very great extent, remedied. In the first place, it would certainly contribute to this end that each con vict would undergo a preliminary and sepal ate period of con finement, and except upon the most hardened. that period of confinement would make an impression upon their minds which would greatly facilitate the maintenance of a proper system of discipline after their liberation, and employment upon the public works ; but if a convict rniscunducted himself on the public works he would render himself liable to be sent back to undergo a further period of punishment by imprisonment. But what he looked a., as a matter of extreme impel- once, was the system under which the public works were to be carried on. Their Lordships were, no doubt, aware of the plan proposed with this view by Captain Maconochie, but the trial which was made of it under his own superintendence was very far from successful ; it was right to state that he attributed its failure to the difficulties which he had to encounter, and which, he said, would not occur for the future; but looking at the experiment which had been made, and relying upon the judgment of those who had had much experience in the subject of criminal dis cipline, he ( Earl Grey) could not help stating that he was im pressed with the conviction that the plan of Captain , laconochie, as proposed by himself. could not be practically carried into effect. Sill he thought there was much in his suggestions which was valuable, and that his fundamental plan was good. It was this, that convicts should be employed on public works, or to be subject to a system by which they should have a great and direct interest in their own good conduct and industry, net only in the abridgment of the period of their sentence, hut in the enjoy ment of certain immediate advantages. lie ( Earl Grey) was convinced that this was an essentially sound and good plan, but it was one which had been already tried, as et Bermuda and Gibraltar the convicts had a direct interest in the labour which they performed, and was found to be of the greatest possible value, as it not only paid the expense of their maintenance and superintendence, but left a considerable annual surplus besides. In Gibraltar the gain of a convict for four years was some• where about 421., or about M. a }ear, and this was effected with the best results to the colony. Where the value of the work was small, as in Van Dieman's Land, they were naturally led to the conclusion that the system was lax ; but where, as in the case of Gibraltar, they find the labour of the convicts producing this result, they might naturally con clude that the system in force was a good one. Hitherto the means of release had been dependent upon a convict's good con duct, as a person who behaved himself well whilst on board the hulks, stood a chance of being recommended to have his liberty guaranteed to him. No doubt labour upon the public works in the way he had pointed out, would be found most valuable as a punishment. With respect to the period for which a person was to be employed on the public works, it was intended that every man who really conducted himself well, who was industrious, and who did not do anything which would subject hint to fresh punishment, shall be able to obtain his liberty at the expiration of about one-half the period of his sentence. This rule had been acted upon in the Hulks, and transportation for life was commuted into twenty-one years' banishment; or that if he conducted himself well who was transported for seven years, might obtain his discharge after three and a half or four years' banishment. In continuing this system they intended to retain what he thought was the real advantage in the former system of transportation, for it was not without compensating advantages. In this country a man who had his character blasted by undergoing punishment, found at the expiration of his sentence, however good his in tentions, however strong his tiesire to give up his criminal ha bits, and to return to a life of honest industry, that there were yet difficulties in the way of his accomplishing his purp.se— ( Hear, hear)--a3 almost every description of employ ment was closed against him, and wherever he went to seek employment, he found others selected instead of him ; and therefore, however strong this good intention might be, he was frequently driven by absolute distress again into the commission of crime. —( Hear, hear.) The case was different in the colonies, as there was a great demand for labour. In New South Wales many convicts who had obtained tickets of leave had amassed large fortunes—in fact, in many in stances this had been carried to an extent which was in jurious ; therefore they proposed, that during the latter period of his employment, he should be allowed wages nearly the full value of his labour, but that it should be retained, with the exception of a srlesll portion to encourage him in his pre sent efforts, until the expiration of his sentence, in order that he might have the means of emigrating; and, following up, as far as possible, the system in force in the colonies, it was proposed that those who had secured the means of paying their way to the colonies, and who had conducted them selves well, should receive a conditional pardon, the condition being that they should not remain in England. The plan was in force in Van Dieman's Land, and was this— that a convict, when he received a conditional pardon, might go where he liked, but that he must not return to England until his term had expired. Generally they had no wish to do so, as they found it would be more advantageous to them to stop in the colony. He was encouraged to hope that this system would be attended with the best results. judging from the condition of the exiles who had been sent to Port Philip from Pentonville Pri son. Those who had gone to Van Dieman's Land had not suc ceeded so well, on account of the state of the colony, and from the difficulty of obtaining employment, owing to the immense number of convicts who had congregated there ; in fact, they had increased to such an extent, as to render it necessaey for the •Government to maintain them, and the last return showed that there were no less than 3.030 awaiting hiring in probation gangs. It was not, however, proposed that themen should go out without their families. It was true that to those who left Pentonville this was riot allowed, as they had undergone but a short period of imprisonment; but when, after a long imprisonment, they were sent abroad, and could by their earnings, take their families with them, they would be allowed to do so; and to this he (Earl Grey) attached the utmost importance, as this would, in a great measure, do away with the disparity in the sexes w hi c h existed in many of • our colonies ; and if the Go• vernment did not allow it, they stood without ex cuse. The thought, also, that the so j ourn i n t hi s country would give time for teaching those wh o were i gnorant to read and write and to acquire some trade which might be useful to them in the colony, so that th e y wou ld h ave a class of persons going to their colonies who wou l d b e f oun d o f great advantag e. He hoped also that they would be se n t ou t i n suc h a way in which they would not be recognised as crimin a l s on t h e i r ar rival at their destination. They would go as paid passengers on board the ordinary emigrant ships amongst other emigrants, so that they would not be recognised from those on th e i r ar rival, or if they were, they would soon overcome any prejudice which might be created against them. It was right to state, that at a meeting recently held at Port Philip, it was urged that advantage would accrue by sending more exiles to that part of New South Wales. Where parties would become responsible for the future condict of the convicts, they would be liberated on leaving the public works, instead of being sent out of the colony, as this plan of emi gration did not partake of a penal character. The next point was when the proposed alterations would be carried into effect. From information he had received, he found that in the course of the present year, it was calculated that means were already available for the separate confinement of the prisoners. In addition to the accommodation which the Pen tonville, Parkhurst, and 111illbank prisons would afford, the prisons in the various counties would, when not fully tenanted, be available for this purpose, as the support of the prisoners now paid by the State, and not out of the county rates. But this duration on ly a ppli e d t o Great Britain as in Ireland, he was sorry to say there was not the required accommodation for the separate confinement of the convict, but no time would be lost in providing the necessary receptacles. Prisons, on the plan of the Pentonville prison, were prepared. With regard to the reception of the convi c ts, a fter the completion of their confinement, he might state that it would be necessary to use the hulks as at pre,ent, but nothing would be left undone to improve them. A great deal had been recently done in the appointment of additional officers, and in the promot i on of a better discipline than heretof o re; yet he admitted after all that the hulks were most imperfect prisons, and that re ceptacles on shore should be provided in lieu of them. Wooden buildings were in the course of being erected, so that they 'right lie removed from place to place as the positi..n of the public works required. The Duke of WELLINGTON—Why not of iron ? Earl GREY—The Noble Duke inquired why they were not to be constructed of iron. He would inform him that wood, in the opinion of engineers, would be both cheaper and more ad vantageous. The convicts could be employed in quarrying stones and in labouring at harbours of refuge, which the Noble Duke was JO anxious to see carried out. LI i3 l ' A lz Y %1 i .... . Such were the measures which the Government proposed with f lia Iler occurred under it. The other parts of the statement. re gard to the male convicts. It was necessary that they should . is .ade by the Noble Lord were very satisfactory, particularly observe that he had confined himself in all the observations to l s , a t relaCog to the improvement of prisons and tei,on disci adult male convicts. With respect to the female convicts, it One. The improvement of prison discipline would cause eon was intended, for the Kt sent, that they should continue to be sidereble expense; but the more they examined the subject sen t to Van Dieman's Land. Considerable pains had been tae more they would be of opmii , n that very considerable a n d, t a k e n in improving and e,tat lishing, for the reception of female . he might say, lavish expenditure of the public money wouki convicts. proper places in Van Di e man' s Land. There was ibe required, and better it could not be expended than fur the not much difficulty experienced in disposing of them, and , purpose of providing fit gaols. One of the causes of the want therefore, at present, it was proposed to continue , sending them of good prison discipline was the want of good prisons; and th er e. With respect to the clan of juvenile °g . enders, some he hoped much time would not elapse before he w o uld considerable modification of the system he had endeavoured to sage a considerable addition to the number of gaols— describe to their Lordships, would be necessary. On that j e a ch gaol accompanied by the means of proper and subject it was inexpedient that they shoula then enter. It efficient industrial employment, either in the gar would be necessary that their Lordships' attention should be den or field, prison discipline could only be called to it at a very early period, and therefore, for the present., perfected, and the reformatory process could only be completed th e y might dispense with all reference to that head. Wi.at hi' by such a plan. If they talked of expense it was a monstrous had stated applied is the prison discipline which it was pro- absurdity, and grossly inconsistent, for they were daily expend posed to adopt with respect to the male adult convicts. Such ing thousands, and he might say hundreds of thousands on mat were the measures upon which her Majesty's Government hail t ern o f l ess importance than the one under consideration. They come to a general change of policy; lie had endeavoured to were about: to abolish tranportation generally, even if describe it as it would be adopted. He had no further ob- they retained it in the few instances in which he thought nervations to make, and in conclusion, he would beg their it ought to 1w retained, and the abolition of it up .n the Lordships to assent to the second reading of the Bill before large scale up en which it had hitherto been conducted, them. would place as' their disposal 600,000/. per annum—for L or d BROUGHAM sail that nothing could be more sal is- the present cost of their penal colonies was actually factory to him than to express his entire approval, and, indeed, sieo,(X)o/. If :they abolished transportation upon the l ie m i g ht say, his admiration of the clear, distinct, and candid larger scale, and retained it spun the smaller scale, as statement made by his Noble Friend who had just sat &tan. applied to individtrals as seltioni as possible, they would tie would not then enter upon the large subject opened to the retain a large reverrue, out of which they could witheut the a tt e ntion of their Lordships, further than simply to state that leaat difficulty constetuct gaols; and even penal farms and some doubt remained upon his mind with reseect to the main gardens, with less expense, than they at present calculated o bj ec t o f the. Noble Earl's remarks—the total abolition of uie m, lie was very glad to hear the Noble Earl's accounts t rans portation- lie came entirely to the same result from an f ro m Gibraltar,—indt ied, it exceeded his best expectations,— examination, not only of the evidence, respecting the subject f.r he had no idea that anything so good had been effected. this Bill referred to, but from a long course of observation arid The Ns ble Earl state d that between 101. and 12'. was the experience in the public service in that respect, and from exa- annual gin up , n the work of one convict at Gibraltar, above m issing w ith great attention all the high authorities upon that th e expense and cost of his maintenance and clothes ; the ex important branch of criminal jurisprudence. Ile had come to panic of his carriage there being alone excepted. That re the same conclusion, generally speaking, regarding that branch pert was very gratifying. of penal itithetion, that punishment by transportation ought to Earl GREY—That aloes not include the expense of his cease. Some doubts rested on hi s m i n d, w hi c h h e had some transportation and vans) es other charges. unwillingness to mention, on this subjec•, the much-to-be- Lord BROUGHAM- —lt included his maintenance, clothing, lamented fattier of the Noble Earl, who brought forward this and lodging ; and above that was earned the sum of 42/. in su si ec t, having been addressed by Archbishop Whateley, in an four years, from the actual profit of his labour. It was a most able pamphlet, entitled " A Latter to Earl Grey upon the sub- satisfactory result, anti he gave his best wishes to the system ject of Transportation," and published in 183: ) . which inculcated such industrious habits upon the part of the He (Lord Brougham) agreed with the opinion ex- prisoners. He had devoted a great portion of his time to this presses! by the Archbishop, with one e xception, su bj ec t, an d h e h a d thought it proper to trouble the House namely, he was unwilling to give up transportation absolutely with these remarks, and, in conclusion, he begged to express t • - all He had • • •- • •- - __... - ' ' No' and entirely in . cases. great doubts if it would be safe in certain cases—these cases being the exception, and by no means the rule—that in certain cases of peculiar description that punishment might advantageously be retained. The great objection to trap-portatien—politically and economically—was not the objection to which reference had been made. He could state that in the penal colonies it was not difficult to find a place in which the sentence might be safely executed. The great objection was the nature and the incurable inequality of the punishment. To one person it was a very grave punish ment—the greatest punishment, perhaps, next to death. To other persons it wore a very different aspect—the aspect only of terror, dislike, and aversion—and, to a third class, it was really little or no punishment at all. The great object ion to transportation as a suit able punishment was, that it could not lie inflicted in the nature of a punishment. It was never to be lost sight of, however, inasmuch as they still considered it as a punishment, and ii might have some effect in deterring by example. The aspect of a punishment was various to various individuals, and it might be used for the purpose of deterring some from crime —as the aspect made so great a difference in its nature. as 'o alter it entirely. They were about to abandon transpor tation absolutely area altogether, but he was quite certain that they ought not rashly to give up any means of punishment, provided even in a few cases it was likely to produce effect as an example. Capital punishment they ail knew and thought ought to be very sparingly inflicted, and some thought that it ought to be abolished altogether. He differed from those per ons who held the last opinion, and agreed with those who thought it nught to be sparingly inflicted. Nevertheless he could not give up capital punishment as a means of deterring others, because there might be only three or four periods of the year in which they could find a proper subject to whom the capital infliction ought to be applied. lie would not give up any punishment, although only applicable to a few instances, proviited it produced a beneficial effect ; and fur that reason he was, upon the whole, doubtful whether they ought to abandon transportation—not as a punishment to be carried out upon every offender, but yet it might be pos sible to make it of use in certain cases, although in a very limited number of instances. Ile thought that the objection of the Noble Earl that the punishment was one of great inequality in its operation, was well founded, but the few cases to which he alluded, that objection would not apply. He should not, upon the whole, thin` it safe to confine it to persons of an inferior rank of life, but rather to those of a superior class. He had reason to think that to persons of that description, it must be the most awful punishment that could be inflicted next to death. It might have afforded a strong example in the case of a malefactor who perished some years ago tor forgery ; that would have been a proper case for the in fliction of transportation. A great malefactor had not very long since been punished by his Noble Friend opposite (Lord Derimaii), and to persons of that description and class such a sentence was next to death. It was the greatest which coula be inflicted upon persons such as the recivere of stolen goods, who carried on their detestable trade—a trade about which the law, and the administrators of the law, were universally and perpetually in conflict. 'The traffic carried on by these persons was driven with a certain capital--in fact, they were persons of no little resources in point of money—they were persons who, out, ardly to the eyes of the world, had a certain standing and appearance of respectability in society. To such persons it would almost. be as hail as to any person in the highest rank of life to have denounced against them the sentence of trans portation for f iurieen years, or for life, for their offent es. These offences were the very " pabulum"—the root—the source from wh nee the varicus depredations committed by thieves—thieves of all ages and descriptions—sprung. His Noble Friend, who was in the s line profession as kimself, must remember well many cases painful to contemplate, in which lie had seen bankruptcies, and absolute insolvency and ruin of the respectable trader, from the lacilit ies disposal which these receivers possess without any doubt, and enabled the servants and apprentices to commit depredations from week to week upon their employers. Ile could not help feeling that for some such culprits as these, to whom that punishment was a terror, he should be somewhat reluctant to accede to the abandonment of the punishment of trim: T orte tion. Ile had another observation to make with regard to the Noble Earl's statement, for it contained one point with w hi. Is he did not agree, and that was with respect to deportation He d.d not attempt to oppose it, but he would throw out rather a suggestion for consideration. The first observation of the Noble Earl on the subject had left him rather in doubt and difficulty as to the manner of inflicting the sentence of depor tation. It appeared that a person, after he had gone over his term of penal labour, and might be supposed to be nearly, if not quite, reformed, was to be sent to Australia in an emigrant ship. They were told that he was not sent out as a pueish ment, but in order to remove him from the society he had dis graced. If the con vi ct were to be allowed to go v o l un t ar ily, then he might go whither he would, b u t if not l ie cou ld under stand that the removal was only to be a part of the punishment to be inflicted, arid that the convict was only liberated from labour. If the convict were to be told that the moment he got out of his term of his penal labour he must e o whether he will or not—he himself could regard it in no other light ; although the language used might riot be that of command, arid although the convict might be told that it was all for his own g ood, the fact wa s th e same, an d he had no doubt that very juvenile offenders would have the acuteness to make answer, " 'rhea I wish you would employ it upon your self, and not upon me." If they were expected to go as emi grants in an emigrant ship, his Noble Friend would find that they would, probably from their station and manners, be dis covered to have been convicts, and they would no: be very lung on board bef ire a line would be drawn across the deck—one side of t h e ship being found for emigrants', and the other for emigrant convicts. With regard to the system of exile there coved be no doubt about it. He could not conceive it possible that i ts t h e year 18-17 they were a b ou t to revive and restore ilia t old abandoned, that entirely abandened, pueishment of t h e Scotch law—banishment forth of Scotland, with re. spect to which Sir George Mackenzie had written nearly one hundred and twenty years ago;—lt was clearing out their malefactors to s e nd them to their neighbours; b u t tiro could p l a y at that game — (A laugli)--and their neieh baurs could send over their convicts to this country. Mr. Alison had also written, about a year ago, upon this ex ploded punishment, which was repealed i n th e re i gn o f G eorge h the Fourth, and which ail long been recorded as a law of barbarism, and only fit for the infant stages of society. sCer tainly they cou ld not avoid calling the p lan the puni hment of exile, because they merely said that it was for the good of the person, whom they did net even allow t o c h oose h is place of resident A s so on as the penal sentence was over — as soon e. as the labour was over—the remaining part of the sentence was to be that he should go abroad. They state it to be no part of the sentence. and yet it was compulsory upon the criminal, why was to be compelled to go, and to be told that it was only to prevent him from offinling _again. Acco r di ng to t h at t h ey might say that the i n fliction of death might be no part of a punishment, because it would effectually prevent the prisoner from offending aga i re —(A laugh.) They might sa y t o a cri minal in his last moments—" It is not a punishme n t, we are only limb (Laughter)—" going to remo ve y ou "—as the surgeon said with re g ard to a We are only going to re move your head ; it is no punishment. Nk e are only going to remove you from society, that you are not likely to err again. It is true we remove you by iiiflicting a wound, which you are not likely easily to get over, but we hinder you from again offending."— (Laughter. ) The same observation would appiy to the sys tem of compulsory exile. If they wet e to go away only by the aid of the Government, they would, in all probability, go to the nearest place, which was Calais , and thin they would perhaps return. And how were they to prevent that? A Liverpool man might go up to London, and a London man to Liverpool What would the Custom-house say when they heard the an swer to the question of " What cargo have you brought—wheat, sugar, or cotton ?" The reply would he—" No, no, we h ave a cargo of convicts."--( Laughter.) They would be asked— " What kind of goods are those " And the persons on board would in the bsst French they could muster say, " They were highway robbers, forgers, and perjured persons—people who have broken all the statutes of the law, but they were all re formed.—(Laughter.) He suspected that these kinds of car goes would meet with a pretty high prohibitory duty in France. They would be apt to say that they could not allow them to come there, and it they were to send them their convicts the French people would adopt the principle of reciprocity and would send over all their convicts to this country—( Laughter) —and that proceeding he did not think likely to increase the benefit of the entente cordiale.—(Loud laughter.) Consider ing these difficulties he did feel a little astonished at the at tempted introduction of an ancient and exploded law. There was, however, one further consideration , namely, that this plan could never be adopted or adhered to, He assured them that it never could be. He did not think that anything so preposterous would ever be adhered to, as a plan for turning upon the French shores all our convicts, after a certain period of labour. In introducing a cargo of such people to any place, what conversation would take place—for instance, with the Mayor of Calais they would hale to admit what they were. They would have to say, " These people have corn. mitted various crimes, but they ;re at present nearly or quite reformed, and we have just brought them over." The chaplain of the penitentiary would say, "Oh ! they are reformed—they are very excellent people, they are ver y worthy and good people, they have committed robberies and forgeries, but they are in process of reformation." The Mayor of Calais would ne cessarily say, "We have here plenty of excellent people amongst ourselves ; pray keep them, for we do not want them ; we have plenty of tee best people of Europe in every rank of crime and degree of refermation. We do not want any impor tation of worthy and good persons upon our side of the water, but if you do leave them we shall order—with the view of keeping up the entente cortlirde— some very good people of ours to be sent to you." That would be one of the effects of intro.. ducing this obsolete penalty of banishment. There was one instance of its having been tried of late years, and that was when one of six Aces was introduced. With the aid of his Noble Friend opposite, who was then with him in the other House of Parliament, he had done all he possibly could to prevent it fiom pa-sing. They- moved heaven and earth to effect their object, but they were defeated. The principle of that Bill was not so objectionable as the principle of the present one—it was for the Purpose of sending away political libellers. The people of France might nut object to a political libeller, but they might object to the ca rr yi ng over a cargo o f ruffians from all parts of St. Giles's. That Act, however, wa s never once put in force; ' and not one single instance of the prosecution of a political li- his acquiescence in the Bill proposed by the St;ble Earl. Lord STANLEY said that he was quite aware that there were many Members in their Lordships' House who were more competent to address themselves to this question than he was, bet he trusted that, from the position which he had had the honour of holding, he would be excused if he trespassed for a short time upon their attention. He was the more anxious to take this opportunity, because, if he rightly understood his Noble Friend, this was the last opportunity which was likely to be affording their Lordships of expressing their opinions upon the subject. This Bill proposed to substitute a better system of secondary punishment fur that which had hitherto existed ; but he could not help thinking that her Majesty's Government, in their efforts to limit the extent of the evil, had too readily adopted a new principle, and too hastily departed from a system which appeared to hint (Lord Stanley) most valuable, however subject it might have been to abuses. He had, at the same time, to express his regret, if he had correctly interpreted the announcement of the Government, that t his was the last opportunity in which Parliament could interfere, because, although it was perfectly true that it was competent for the Governor in authority at the colonies to mitigate the punishment, although competent for the judges in this country to pass sentence of imprisonment in lieu of transportation, and therefore so far to effect an alteration in the penal system, still, it did appear to hen that to introduce these great—these very extensive—these important, and in his opinion mast doubtful measures, there should have been something inure than a mere announcement of the intentions of the Government, there ought to have been a something more than a trilling discussion in this or both Houses of Parliament. Such a measure as this should not be carried without the sanction of an Act of Parlia ment defining in the clearest manner who were to be the subjects affected by the measure, and the extent of punishment to be affixed to each degree of crime. lie was afraid that too much haste was not only observable on this but on all former occasions on which this important ques tion had been considered, anti he could not help entertaining the greatest deubt of the prudence of abrogating altogether the puni s hme n t of transportation. Ile believed that it was min ced.- d by almost ail who had t aken the trouble of considering this subject, that transportation, as a secondary punishment, impressed the criminal with more terror than any other mode ur degree of punishment. He believed that many of the most hardened culprits who would hear with perfect indifference a sen tence of 13 months' imprisonment, to be afterwards commuted to labour in public works, would look with very different feel ings on a sentence of transportation for a period of 21 or 14, or even 10 years. Ile believed that however faulty in practice the system at present in existence was, it capable of being worked advantageously for the pur poses of reformation as well as of punishment. The Noble Lord opposite had correctly stated that in this punish ment much deeendsd on the charac es of the convict himself, and much on the temper of the master to whom he might have been assigned, and whits to some this would be hardly any punishment at al', to others it would be a severe one. His ( Lord Stanley's) conviction was, that if after a period of punishment by labour in the colonies,' here had been the means of distributing among the scattered population of so large a continent as that of New South Wales, these labourers—if facileies had been given for allotting them to free emigrants— men possessed of property—if there had been proper facilities ztven for distributing the convict population, after they had undergone the severe ordeal of punishment which Government had commanded—if such facilities had been given, he believed that great good might have been accom plished, and that many and singular advantages would accrue to the character, the d ispositions, and the welfare of the indi viduals who had beers subjected to that punishment. He re gretted to think, that net only were hasty steps taken by the Committee which sat in 1827, but that still more hasty steps were taken in 1840, when her Majesty's Government, without any previous preparation, at once announced that transportation to New South Wa'es was immediately to cease. Ile thought they had then sacrificed a great advantage when they threw up as a tres.al settlement a colony large as the continent tit teurope,--a colony to which they might have transported a great mass of crime, which it was of the first importance should be sent from their shores. Even his Noble Friend, in the plan which he that evening submitted t.i their Lordships, admitted the necessity of removing this mass of evil from their country. Ile (Lord Stanley) slid not mean to deny Gat great and serious inconveniences had arisen to the colony of Van Dieman's Lind, from the extent to which transportation had been carried, in consequence of the declara tion of Government that New South Wales should no longer be a penal settlement, and that Van Dieman's Land should he the only and single point to which that tide of vice and depravity should flow in future. But this inconvenience was immediately aggravated by the unfortu nate coincidences of the period in which the operation of the new system was first commenced. At the period when the new system was first introduced, there was every reason to believe that as the convicts came out from the first step of punishment, namely, from the probation gang, they would be absorbed in the population, and proper and honest labour pro cured for them, it was unfortunate that coincident with that period, trade should be in a most depressed condition, that a sudden eclipse of that prosperity which had been blown up to an artificial and premature extent should supervene, and that those classes who were the employers of labour, were in a con dition to do so no longer. Nothing could have happened more unfortunately for the Government than that the new system was in•roduced at this period, yet he (Lord Stanley) was satis fied of this, that to a great extent notwithstanding all those disadvantageous circumstances, the system adopted with trans eorted convicts had acted beneficially in the case of a great proportion of those persons who had been subjected to this punishment. He did not mean for a moment to say, that in the papers before the House, there sr. re not instances of horror (which he was glad to find his Noble Friend had not disgusted their Lordships withl—but those horrors were in the probation gangs, confined to two or three localities. Earl GREY—No, no. Lc rd STANLEY—It was so, and he affirmed it after a careful examination of the papers. These acts of horror were occasioned by the absence of proper superintendence and watchfulness, and they might by proper superintendence have been in every instance checked. All precautions having been inconceivably neglected, it could net be deemed matter of astonishment, or even of wonder, that such consequences should have ensued. But let them look to the especial docu ments which treated of the character anti conduct and disposi tion of the convict population of Van Dieman's Land. He asked them not to take the authority of the Governor nor of the comptreller, nor to take the authority of those official reports which one and all announced a great improvement in the character and conduct of the convict population. But he would ask their Lordships to look at a letter which would be found in those very papers, and which gave the impressions of the writer with regard to the general conduct of the convicts in the year 1845, and again, in 184;;, and Mr. Fry, their Lordships would re member, was no advocate for the continuance of transporta tion, especially for miner offence!. His letter would he found in pages 190 arid 191 of the book before their Lordships, and the statements con'ained in it were such as ought not to be overlooked. The Noble Lord then proceeded to read an ex tract from the Rev. Mr. Fry's letter, which had appeared in a colonial paper, to show the great improvement which had taken place in the moral character of the convict population. The writer said that the sea-ports of England presented more im moral aspects than the towns of the colonic s—that the ministers of religion who had been provided by the Government in 1842, I bored in extensive congregations, every Protestant family having their Bibles, and both Protestants and Roman Catholics deli kiting in their r ligiou, o'.servances. The tendency of the whole article was to prove that society in the penal colonies had greatly improved, and were in course of even greater improve ment. Now, this was the article which appeared in one of the colonial papers, anti the same facts were confirmed by another article, dated in August, 1846, exactly a twelvemonth after the publication of his first letter. He went on, at a later period, to state that he had married upwards of a hundred discharged convicts in the last year, who were living as happy as any la bourers in England. The writer also referred to the working of c• nditional pardons under the olsi system. With reference to the intentions of her Majesty's Government as regarded conditional pardons, the Government desired to give the go vernor power to grant conditional pardons which should extend over the whole of the pe na l co l on i es, so that an emancipated convict might have the option of a widely evtendeti country to settle in. With r egar d t o t h e pun i shment, his Noble Friend and himself appeared to agree on the principle; in fact, he theught there was no difference in this respect between them. His Noble Friend admitted, in his place, that the same prin ciple of punishment should be carried out as that which at present prevailed in the colonies, namely, the inflicting a severer degree of punishment in the advanced stages, anti in every successive stage giving greater or less restraint, until by perseverance and good conduct the convict should emerge among the free and uncontaminated population ; therefore, as far as the principle was concerned, there was no dif. Terence between them, and he believed that there would be none with any other of their Lordships. The question, then, the great question for them was, what kind or degree of punish ment would be the best calculated to prevent crime in the first instance, and restore in the sec and place the convict to a useful position in society ? He was afraid that in the vast scale of offences which were now punishable with transportation, the distinction would be neglected which existed between the highest and lowest grades of punishment. The offender in the first instance, would think it a matter of no great importance whether the minimum sentence of six months, or the maxi mum sea tence of eighteen months were passed. That differ ence would not strike the mind so forcibly as the difference between six months imprisonment and transportation for life. The fear of transportation was new very strong, even with the most hardened culprit, and he doubled that if they substituted imprisonment for some months to be followed by emigration, with their w i ves and children, the punishment would n o t only cease to be a matter of dread, but actually consti tute something to look forward to, and hope for. He admitted without hesitation, that the question of expense was in this care a misor and subordinate matter ; and what ever might be the expense of carrying out this plan, it it were calculated to diminish crime, the country he was sure would not object to a slight additional expenditure of one, two, or three hundred thousand pounds. But Government would be subjected to great difficulty in the first apelication of their plan. That wouid necessarily be the effect of abandoning the sentence of transportation. He believed the male portion of ho population now sentenced to transportation amounted an. smelly to 4,000 ; so that Government, would have to provide acrommodation in prisons of the character of Pentonville and Parkhurst, for an additional 1,00 prisoners in each succes s ive year. Four thousand would be the average number of persons to be provided for at one time, and of course the expense of the system would be very considerable. But that was not al'. At the expiration of the preliminary im prisonment, the prisoner was to pass to employment. upon the public works. It would be remembered that he had asked this question what was to be the period of that employment, and the Noble Lord opposite answered, about half the period of transportation. Now, assuming that the term of ten years was the average transportation, that would give five years employ ment upon the public works, and he calculated that under this system there would he 20,00) convicts permanently employed upon the public works. He ventured therefore to say, that it was impossible to carry the system into effect. It would seri ously interfere with the demand for ordinary labour, and lead to great difileuities and dissenting. At the expiration of the sen tence, the convict was to be sent as a free emigrant, and free labourer to some foreign port, and if this part of the plan were to be carried out, it would inflict the grossest injustice upon the good portion of the population. Why how could such a plan be tolerated? Government were preparing to give to the convicted criminal, what hundreds and thousands of the honest portion of the population were begging for, but which could not, from motives of economy, be possibly granted. But let them look a little further into this question of emigra. tints, as it was proposed to be carried nut by the Government. They already had some experience of the feelings, with which the different colonies of this empire regarded the presence of convicts. He would not assume, as was assumed by his Noble and Learned Friend, that it was the intention of Government to send these convicts to France, or any other foreign country, but of this there could be no doubt that they would he furnished with the means to enable themselves and their f milies to emigrate. Now, where were they to eo to ? Was it to be left to the convict himself, or were they to be sent to some one of the British colonies, under the control, and at the expense of the State? When they arrived in the colonies, were they always to be free, arid subject to no control? His Noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Department, must not deceive himself with the idea that the character and con dition of these convicts would be greatly improved under such an emigration system. They could not be sent out by driblets of three's and four's at the time ; and if every emigrant ship were allowed to carry a considerable portion of convict; without previous notice; a fraud would be committed upon, the good and honest emigrant. Under such a system, there would be a separation between the convict and the emigrant in the very emigrant ship, while upon their arrival in the colonies, there would he a marked dis tinction apparent to every man between the treatment of the convict sent out at the public expense and the emigrant, whose name and character had been untainted by crime. During the time he had the honour of being at the head of the Colonial office he was most anxious to promote the success of an experi ment upon a small scale for sendinss out to some colony a limited number of the most reformed convicts. With the greatest difficulty, the colony or district of Port Philip was got to con sent to receive them, amounting in the whole to fifty ; but this experiment was made the subject of the greatest possible complaint, and petitions poured in from every British colony, praying that they might not be subjected to the contamination of these convicts. Government had already pledged itself that New South Wales should no longer be a convict colony, and he wanted to ask the Noble Lord if they would be keeping faith with New South Wales if they allowed conviel ato emigrate to that colony under this new plan? Cer tainly they would be keeping promise to the ear but riot to the sense, because the convicts were not to be transported in the first instance. But he wanted to know where these convicts were to be sent ? No doubt they would be glad to go to Canada or New York ; but did Government suppose that Canada would consent to be a receptacle of their convicts. By their prelimi nary system, Government would involve themselves in consider able expense, while, with some trifling additional expense, and a little better management, they might greatly improve the existing system in the colonies. The system of employing convicts. upon public works must break clown, as it ought, the plan of emigration would operate unjustly, and he was therefore, strongly disposed to improve the existing system, by enabling the more reformed of the convicts in the penal settle ments to emigrate to neighbouring colonies in bodies of three and four at a time. He had taken the liberty of saying thus much, although he was quite aware that there were many of their Lordships more competent than he was to speak upon this subject, because they had had more experience than him self, but, considering the hasty and extensive change that was now proposed to be made in the criminal code of this country —a change too summary to admit of its being carried into beneficial operation—entertaining great doubts whether the system was not, in point of fact impracticable—whether it would lead to great advantage, or whether it would not be at tended with similar abuses to those of the present system—he had taken the liberty to submit to their Lordships the doubts he entertained upon the subject, to express his earnest hope, that Government would take no immediate step in the matter without Parliament and the people had had the fullest oppor tunity of considering the question, and expressing their opinion upon it.—(Hear, hear.) Lord DENMAN was rejoiced to hear the question so sin• cerely and ably discussed by both sides of their Lordships' House, while he was extremely gratified to learn that Norfolk was to be entirely broken up. Hand, as a penal settlement , The terror, however, of transportation ought not to be with drawn from the minds of the people, and he must, therefore, own that he viewed with dismay the proposal for altogether abandoning that mode of punishing offenders. It would have a dangerous effect upon a vast portion of the criminal popula tion of the country, who were constantly being instructed in the arts of crime, who were leagued together, were connected with large capitalists and well-constructed associations, to tell them that, however great the •rime they might commit, they should not be transported. Ile did believe that the fear of the punishment of transportation - had a great effect in deterring some people from committing crime, and, from ex perience, he could state that he had seen instances where the terror of transportation was quite over. whelming. But there was one fact which Noble Lards seemed to have lost sight of, namely the importance of remov ing criminals of wealth and ability from all communication with those whom they had been employing day after day for pur poses of crime. The receiver of stolen goods was perfectly respectable in general appearances, in his conduct he seemed exemphvy—paid his tradesman's bills regularly every week — was considered a great benefactor in the neighbourhood in whirls he lived, and hence he could always secure a retinue of witnesses to speak to his character. Now, if they did away with transportation, there was no punishment which could be effectually inflicted upon such a man, and the crime of receiv ing stolen goods would be greatly increased.—( Hear, hear.) Criminals could not always be imprisoned in this country, because they would always find some means of communication with their friends and relations, and the result would be, that some false public sympathy would be continually excited on their behalf. Criminals could not be employed in this country on public works, as they were at Marseilles. The people would not consent to have such a spectacle continuously before their eyes. Besides, it was ex ceedingly dangerous to say to the criminal, that, in the event of his behaving himself well, his term of imprisonment would be confined to eighteen months' confinement, and then he would be sent abroad at the public expense. It was well known that the worst criminals were generally the best-behaved in prison, and the reason was obvious. They were cunning designing fellows, and they knew that it served their turn to behave well. There was one point to which he wished to call the attention of their Lordships. If a man was condemned to death under the present law, and if, in consequence of some doubt enter tained on the case, a compromise was made with him, and he was told that if he submitted to be transported for life, the sentence would not be executed—if he chose after that to return to this country the sentence of death might be executed on him. But in the change proposed by the Noble Earl if the criminal returned after his banishment, they would be then obliged to transport him again, so that the whole difficulty re turned, and he believed that the power of transportation must be to some extent still retained. There was another point, also, the consideration of which filled him with some degree of pain. If this country found that transportation was itone away with, he was apprehensive that a greater desire would be excited to recur to capital punishment than at pre sent existed in this country. If this should result from the contemplated change, he was bound to say that, in his opinion, it would be regarded with great aversion ; but if people found that the punishment proposed to be substituted for the former system of transportation failed in repressing crime to the same extent as it did, it was to be feared that the effect which he anticipated would result. He then held in his hand a petition against capital punishment; and it was well known that the public mind was running strongly in that direction ; but if anything occurred from"the prWosed change to increase the amount of crime, the consequences to which he referred would be likely to follow. He did not think it right as the subject had been brought before the House, to be quite silent on it, but he was of opinion that it would be much better to proceed by Act of Parliament, in making any changes on the system at present adopted. lie had no objection to the Government endeavouring to diminish the number of trans ports, and improving the discipline pursued in the place to which they were transported; but such large changes as those contemplated should, in his opinion, be made with the greatest caution and deliberation. The Duke of RICHMOND considered that the greatest danger would arise to the peace and to the security of life and property in this country, if it once went abroad that transpor tation was to cease to be a punishment of crime. If three or four thousand people were to be confined in future in the gaols of this country, he hoped they would not attempt to introduce such a system till they had the gaols ready for their reception. Besides, he did think, with regard to the change, that the term of 18 months of solitary confinement was by far too long, and he thought they should have an opportunity of being taught trades, and of taking exercise in the open air during the period of their confinement. With regard to em ploying the prisoners re public works, as proposed by the Noble Earl, he could not approve of that, as he considered transport ing them beyond the seas was one of the strongest restraints in crime. Banishment from their own country operated, he be lieved, as a most powerful preventive, and the most abandoned criminal was not unfrequently most strongly attached to his wife and children, and native land. He hoped, therefore, the Noble Earl would take the advice of his Noble Friend the Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench, and instead of proceeding on so large a scale as he proposed, to endeavour to try what could be done, first by diminishing the number of transport?, and in any case, by proceeding by Act of Parlia ment. He thought, however , t hatthe system of Pent onvi ll e prison had not been sufficiently tried. With regard t o t h e hulk system, he did not think t hat it was possible to maintain good prison discipline there. They put too many pri sone . is together. He was glad that the prison inspectors of Millbank were to be removed. They should have been employed in visiting the various prisons throughout the different es unties, with a view to get a more uniform system adopted throughout the country—the business for which they were originally ap pointed. Earl GREY said that after the observations of the three Noble Lords who had just addressed the House. he wished to make a few remarks, which he would . do as briefly as p oss ibl e. I t had been observed, and an opinion was strongly expressed by the Noble Lord opposite ( Stanley) and also, he believed, by his Nob'e Friend behind him (Lord De nman ) t h at t h e change proposed by . Her Majesty's Government ought not to be carried into effect without an Act of Parliament. He agreed that an Act of Parliament would be ultimately necessary if these changes were considered beneficial, and he intended to state that in the course of his speech, but the magnitude of the subject prevented him. Now, by the existing law, the punish. ment of transportation could be commuted, and as they cossi. dered that the present law was sufficient to enable them to carry out the proposed plan, they did not consider it necessary to require, at present, a special Act of Parliament, the more especially as the system to be introduced was merely experimental. Until the change was fully tried and sanctioned by experience, they did nut propose to apply for an Act of Parliament. They at present commuted the sentence in regard to criminals, from transportation to Van Dieman's Land, to sending them to work on the public works in Gibraltar, at Bermuda, the hulks, Pentonville, and Millbank, and the system now proposed was the same there, but ou a larger scale. The meaning of seven years' transportation was understood and acted upon, as four years' imp r i sonmen t i n t h ese p l aces now ment i one d, till this Noble Lord (Stanley), in 1643, sent the criminals abroad on a large scale. Until the advantage of the experiment, therefore, was con fi rme d by th e ex p er i en ce they had of its operation, it was not intended to apply to Parliament lD . o n t i l so he subject Besides, according to the opinion of A d r. who had just gone out there as governor, and . , impossible y indeed, of e one who knew anything about the colonies , . it was_ to send convicts out there at present. His Noble Friend also I spoke of the greasyaccumulation of criminals i n this ec. which the plan proreesed would cause; but wit h reit:re l that he would ask, was not the facility of controlulinage greater at home than abroad, where they wo u'd be . immedi a t e e y e o f t h e Government? He also expre ssed trd to the propriety of interfering . with the er assignment, but it was well known that that was a V oe tb system, and in the great majority the same relation to each other as in a state of slaver):. of cases the par t ' e evidence taken before the Committee on this subi n e, er , which Sir William iNlolesworth presided, it was show o ff ii; condition of the convicts was most degrading and dem ere r' or They were told besides that if the system proeose3 the cle out, and the late system of transportation abolished, no 10 , would be extremely injurious, and there would be • ir e (l any safety for society. His Noble and Learned Foe 0 , nt , Denman) also adduced the case of a wealthy receive!: property, whose punishment in case of convictio.o; be evaded. Did the Noble Lord know, re what had happened under the late system tell portation? If not he (Earl Grey) would etl i a co ' ; A receiver of seolen goods of enormous wealth h ad c r victed some time since, and sentenced to be transpee7lo managed to evade the law a s to forfeiture of th d i of felons, and brought it w ith him to New So u of a sh' When he arrived there he got himself assigned , an% 0 el time was as well off under this system of assign mee he was in the city of London. —( Laughter.) Lord STANLEY—That could not be done nob' Earl GREY only adduced the case to show the totem, system was one which was very susceptible of irePreoteie Under the existing system of transportation , a non : ou t it to fourteen years was sent to Van Di e man's Land , an no. a penal gang. and if he exhibited good conduct, after e r- I' of eight years he got a c on diti on al pardon, whie h , ln etbes free, except that he must not return to Englenetungeet he might go to India, China, or other c ountries. 0 11 system proposed, instead of being sent to Van Ther°, ll ,,, the offender was immediately to be put into Penseel!iirript, was not sent into a pen a l ga n g , where little or o'oo was maintained, but he was placed in separate on e vat with discipline so severe, that the Noble Duke (th 11 ,yes' Richmond) said eighteen months' continuance of it riodt too much for human nature ; and at the end of there Tv was removed into penal labour on the public work s ' but t; was, therefore, penal labour under both systeoss, difference consisted in this, that under the m ' e t i o system the offender would be put under an ,00: and effective system of discipline. But then , a fter T r I.o' time, the criminal should be sent out to Van Denti n where he would find himself in the same condition al l 0 0 . he had begun to bear his punishment in Australia , for e receive a conditional pardon, and at the end of the tio or , be discharged free in that country, as under the systea t t i o o, ,l sent existing. He had always admitted that transport:le far as it provided a refuge for the offender after his P en eoo lo, was at an end. was of the greatest possible use, for are”loilie offered an opportunity which could not be found in thetiottY country. But his Noble Friend opposite had sat't,„, evils resulting to the colonies from the old system of —reeler tation might have been prevented if the most comfit° ' l e" tions had been taken. But he ( Earl Grey) asked boo o l je!, to pass that the evil results of that neglect had growe l ro sss tinued for a term of six years? Why, such a state ofthieg-po! not have existed for six months in this country, wh e d re det,° ° opinion would not have permitted it to continue; en Ft" doubt was an advantage to be derived from the sYs te orr eiS, posed to be adopted, that their officers were under tm.hesie and strict surveillance, that evils could be instantly. % t hel and results modified. For it was not the rules wl. ° o iste l might have upon paper which affected the system as " s oil which would always be guided by the rules that w ere oc tiS in force. His Noble Friend had very good ru l es dal e (1 0 the regulation of the penal colony, but where was t Do s which they produced? But it was urged by the rob fr' that a system of penal labour would not be tolerated. people. He (Earl Grey) asked wh e ther that Oro I,O° A , argument in favour of transportation ? For if Eng' e a „ e ldti not bear that which was for th e ir o w n advantage' sto e expect that a small community in Van Dieman's Li e n , stV s hear it ? Were they now to tr ea t th e co lonies tel l- g ' Englishmen more and more felt th e necess ity of b i le ti:l institutions tinder which they had been trained• d jo ie had come when these institutions must be introduce to V a i l their colonies, and he trusted in the present sessi° fl e bes in a measure to that effect. The time was come - o ver advantage of representative Government must be g r i bets 4 l. Australia. The Noble Duke had said that exile from tire land and their famili'.s was felt by offender s te I punishment and a great trial. He ( E ar l Grey) brtd',l, of opinion that these sa cr ed ti es o f h uman n ature 0 1 . be l1 0 made a means of punishment. It was certain that bsel, j v tuated criminal possessed few of these finer feeling Jeer, nity. It was also certain that the p r ofession Abed had but few family ties to at t ac h hen °l el tst and it was only the man who had been he tt3l. the first beginnings of c rime th a t wou ld feel —Pete Noble Duke had described. If, h owever , it appeared r b v s r d th j s them ever to use this as a mea n s o f p un i s h me nt, the Y e p power of doing so while the prisoner was at Pent on 0., Portland, by excluding for a longer or shorter periodii munication with their friends or families' se ri °ll old days of tr nsportation, he said they use. „t trio out the wife of the family with the offender , w . ,. p icie' r custom was discontinued, with the most P e ', t effects. The Government intended, tbere_rflro'i th i s send out the wife and family after a certain ner i 7ecics l ; offender's punishment had been endured, and he 8 "eo -I rl that these intentions of the Government being es t ', o ee?", with proper precaution would be beneficial even to.th e fo ;. In fact, there was a demand its some of the colonies d bor: but for those who were not hardened, and corruptt less, such a s were sen t b e f ore . I t h a d b een o this new system w ou ld n ecess it a t e a l arge expe t eitt ,set those persons. Now, the fact was, if they thee; them to the colonies, provision must be made for t hem , bee, whether, therefore, at home or abroad, provision mes'ediseS ready ; and, i n d ee d, P ort l an d wou ld b e i n a state of, very soon, for the re ce pti on o f p r i soners . The n' ° „eyyste w concluded by expressi ng hi s h o p e th a t the propose" t , would tend to diminish crime, and r ef or m the offenders: lid o o Lord DENMAN rose to explain. He said he cislll wish to be misund er st oo d by their Lordships, and eke, Os! the Noble Earl who had just sat down. When it was s! n when a man was sentenced to seven years' transportat i ' d sof was sent to the hulks fo r f our years, he did not hesitate t 0 0 that in the hulks th e man , f or anyth i ng an one on e knew , sl f ' tir e his way to the co l on i es , an d i t appertaiued t the agen t 'Lae Crown to pardon him at the en d o f four years. But toaa ot the nature of the pu n i s h ment pronounceiiupon him R Ad legal, and it was not competent for them to do so exalt by u a' of Parliament pa s sed f o r th e purpose. H e would nut I ": te eee , deretoodas defending the sy s t em o f t ransportat i on i n n In his opinion it was an abominable practice. After a few words fr om th e M arqu i s of SALISBURY ac ° the table, the Bills were then read a second time. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 5. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. _ Papers from the Po o r-l aw C om missioners W ere r sented. al 54° The second reading of th e Leominster — ll/1 Navigation Bill was postponed for a week. SECOND READINGS. , apd The following Bill s were rea d a seco nd toi le ' ordered to be committed:— Bo (fast Port and Harbour. Cambridge, SL Neot's, and Bedford Junction 1 1111 , 1 r a tir East Lancashire Railway (Clitheroe, Mitten, an ham, Branches). in° Edinburgh and North ern R a il way (St. Am-ire w Newburgh Harb our , Branches, a nd Road Cr oss jeg Newport Railway Extension). a A $ Great Northern Railway (Branch to llorncastle 0 Brayford Mere, Lincoln). London and North-Western Railway (Linie'fi tre'6 Liverpool, Station Extension, &e.) d i 0 11 L'oidon and North-Western Railway (Portob e • -° Wolverhampton Branch, &c.) dret el Newcastle and Berwick R a il wa y (Crarnlington to -- Main, and Kil ling;worth and other Branches). T:iw Vale Thilway and Dock. fo il° York and Newcastle Railway (Hartl e p oo l Dock 0 (1 00r way, and Great North o f E ng l an d , Clarence, at)", tlepool Junction Railway, Lease and Purchai., j TllP THE LONDON SEWAGE CHEMICAL IMA' COMPANY. Sir DE LACY EVANS b roug ht i n thi s Bill, I/bids was read a first time. MALT. Mr. BROTIIERTON presented two p e titions, c)fi t ef tbo which wa s f rom a pl ace in Devonshir e , praying °ti lt 14 House would pa ss a l aw to prevent the use of Int l the purpose of distillation during the present call° . ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILK Oi l Sir R. H. INGLIS presented petitions Against Bill. AVITION . Mr. 3,IITCALNFE presented a p LAWS etition from shipoviller° in North Shields against the repeal of these laws' LIGHT DUES. .e, Mr. HUME presented a petition from the sbir" n al of the port of Arbroath complaining of the burn the light dues. e ffect' Mr. FORSTER presented a petition to the same PUNISIINIENT OF DEATH. iet y Mr. HUNIE presented a petition from a sc'e..ris, London calling themselves " Free-thinking Christ i- 11 , praying for the abolition of the punishment of de ilt RAJA OF SATTARA. . 0 11 5 ' Mr. B. ESCOTT presented a p e ti t i on f ro m the I to g bitants of Westminster, agreed to at a public or 1 : 1, over which General Sir De Lacy Evans pres iu° support of the claims of the Raja of Sattara. patter° Sir B. HALL presented a petition from St• • - to the same effect. lIIGLIW ACT. Mr. DUNCOMBE p rese nt AY d a e petition from!" li t o>o lac ° in the I s l e o f Wi g h t, pray i ng fur an amendment I ° Acts. UNIVERSAL PEACE. e Mr. lIINDLEY presente d a petition from t he mince of the Society for Promoting Universal re ll- bol (Laughter) —stating that they cons id ere d the !louse adopted a very erroneous course in increasing the and navy estimates, and stating that the only. *'o l o promote the saf e ty o f th e nat i on was, b y inculcati",„ 0 principles o f un i versa l l ove an d j ust i ce, an d not P,1 4 ,) blind reliance upon brute force.—(Renewed He entirely concurred in the prayer of the Paid °. (Cries of ‘• Order, order," and laughter.) FAT. Mr. TOLLE .lACHE NATIONAL presented S a petition in ai l 110 of a day being set apart for fast and humiliation. ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL- The Earl of SURREY presented a petition from place in Warwickshire in favour of this Bill. LAWS OF QUARANTINE. Dr. BOWRING desired to know whether any ch!ggpeol: had taken place in the laws of quarantine? and, if d , hether the Vice-President of the Board of Tr ii would have any objection to place them upon t he ta ble of the House?' - Mr. MILNER GIBSON, in answer to the otu e had to say, that the only new regulation which he i ", 13- n i of was, that ships from Turkey, having clean bil'a, 1 , health, and in which there was no suspicion of sic' ness, were free from quarantine. POOR LAW FOR IRELAND. Mr. POULETT SCROPE presented a petition (rota a palish in the county of Cork, which stated that cher? were many thousand persons there suffering from desni lotion, and that such did not arise from any w ant ° f. property in the neighbourhood, but from the absence of many proprietors, and the refusal of others to supp er , the poor ; the p e tition e rs pr a y e d for a complete poor law, similar to the English. Mr. LABOUCHERE presented a petition from the Commissioners or Cashel, praying for union rating. ?DJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. On the motion of Mr. PARKER, it was agreed that the .house at its rising should adjourn till Ildonday. TEII Mr. of the E Way Co Sir I Westeni stances Sattara. Lord Motide.y ehairmai holders' to obtain of a deb. ling, and 1 3ritish s _PRE: Mr. B( Seeretar) hire that elatnatior diffe.rent Bill was tute for t wished, ti Were inter fur the fu purpos e 4) Mr. LA been p 5 ,84 Only latel there had effect. I: anxiou s w tinguish tl as early a: country uT Mr. tiu transinitte Mr. LA Mr. Sp( the netitic trains ba p Lord S~l the name c of by her Plans, the I nantei of sl consulted & Sir. CO( been laid u the M p t u ß bl O ic l. pursued b ) Works i n .11 ti t 4 e ago t Lieuten ant a usPended. Public wort Mr. LA answer to 1 the public the desire possible the Mr. STI of the Nol teat had the eonven t ad wheth the table. 1.4 , )rd J. be w , d On question.