The Sun. — London, England, 1847-02-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 12. Their Lordships met at the usual hour. Earl FITZ WILLIAM gave notfee that, on Monday, he should present a petition from the Rev. A. Jordan, of Gloucester, praying that an addition might be made to the number of Bishops. The Noble Earl presented a petition from a place in the West Riding of Yorkshire, praying for the repeal of the Poor Removal Act. MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS. Messengers from the Commons brought up the Desti tute Persons (Ireland) Bill, and the Brewing from Sugar Bill, which were read a first time. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Lord WALSINGIIAM presented a petition from a board of guardians in Norfolk against the law of settle ment, passed last IRISH session. DISTRESS. Lord MONTEAGLE presented a petition from a meeting of ratepayers is the county of Westmeath, over which the high sheriff presided, representing the great distress existing in that country, and praying their Lordships to adopt speedy and effective measures for their relief. CLANWELLIN AND SHA'NID (IRELAND). Lord MONTEAGLE said he now rose to move, ac cording to notice, for copies of applications made to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, on behalf of residents in the baronies of Clan wellin and Shanid, praying for a division of those baronies, for the purpose of holding special sessions, under the 9th and 10th Vict., c. 107. He hoped he would not be understood as complaining of the course which had been adopted on this subject by the Irish Government, who had no doubt pursued the course in this particular instance which appeared to Shen to be right; and all that he meant now to do was to more for certain papers which might form the !weds of certain observations which he thought were required in afterwards bringing the subject before their Lordships. He begged to remind their Lordships, that under the Labour-rate Act of last session, there was a power re served to the Government, by the lath clause, to enable them, if they thought it necessary, to divide the parishes which appeared at present to be too large. He said that clause had been specially in troduced into the Bill for this purpose, when it was under debate in the other House of Parliament. It was then felt that some of the baronies in Ireland, like the ridings of this country, were become so large that it was next to impossible to administer the Labour-rate Act, and that was the special reason for introducing the clause to which he had alluded. In two cases ap plication had been made to the Lord-Lieutenant that this clause might be put into effect, but the Irish Go vernment had thought fit to refuse these applications. He would only remark further his hope that whatever sys tem their Lordships might afterwards adopt, they would take care what baronies and parishes they united together. From these considerations he had come to the conclu sion, that the greater the distress the greater would be the difficulty of ascertaining correctly how the law was administered. At present the Labour-rate Act was in operative. If they extended their electoral divisions they would subject themselves to all sorts of fraudulent applications, and they would be called on to decide upon works of consideration, but of which they had no per sonal knowledge. The consequence of this, as was alreadyeshown, was, that in the larger districts they were but imperfectly done, while in smaller districts they were well executed. This was a most important subject for their consideration. When the Poor-law for Ireland was passed a Noble Lord who was not then in his place, introduced a clause. The object of the Noble Lord's clause was to give the possessors of property in Ireland as much of the management of' their estates as possible, and to make it the interest of the landlord to look after that of his tenantry. This would effect a most desirable object, and where it was carried out there was a decrease in the pauper population, while in those where the divisions were large there was an augmentation of the pauper population as well as an increase in the poor rates. The subject had been tried for several yeare, and was brought under the consideration of a Committee of their Lordships' House, and after the most mature deli beration, the principle for which he contended was agreed to. With respect to interfering with the privileges of the other House in the discussion that might arise, he did not think it should operate. Ile would conclude by moving that the papers to which he referred should be produced.—The motion was agreed to. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was glad that the Noble Lord disdained making any imputation to her Majesty's Government, but even if he had done so, he (Marquis of Lansdowne) would not object to the pro sluction of the piper. However, the Noble Lord had candidly avowed that he made no such imputation. With regard to the other points referred to by the Noble Lord, such as the apportioning of the rates, and the n divid . g the districts over which they were t o be levied, he thought that, when the Bills with which these questions were mixed up were before their Lordships ' that would be the best time to discuss them. In a ddi t i on to the papers moved for by the Noble Lord, he would suggest that the answer of the Lord-Lieutenant to 1.1 - , , e application, and all the correspondence that had taken place on the subject of the baronies, should be also laid on the table. Lord BROUGHAM concurred with the observations that had been made, with regard to the propriety of re taining what was called the Duke of Wellington's clause. With regard to abstaining from diEcussion on these points now, he thought it was most absurd. They should not do so, from any affected regard to keepiii i ; inviolate the privilege sof the other House. The reason why he was of this opinion, with regard to the peints in question, was because the rating principle was of the greatest importance, and gave the distinctive feature to the Bill. There ,ivves a minute system of inquiry adopted in Scotland bolero tiny relief was extended, and this had a good effect; but of the twenty - -three questions proposed to the applicant, there was one to which he objected—namely, the 17,h, which ievired to what place of worship the applicant for relief belonged. He (L Ord Brougham) had kn iwn this to operate most injuriously, for Catholics had often been refilled relief after the answers to this query. He objected to all such questions, for churches and sects, were all very well in their place, but they hail nothing to do with questions involving the dispensation of charity. They ceuld dress their dinners on Saturday, but it did not matter whether they were dressed on Sunday or Saturday, but it did matter very materially whether this facility were allowed for Sunday or not. Ile had his information from a most respectable person, that a physician who was called in to the assistance of a person who was dangerously ill, was unable to travel without the payment of an extra price. In America he knew that among some of the most religious people in the world—he meant the Pilgrim Fathers, who formed a large and important body in the north and west of America this convenience was not denied. In Scotland too, which is distinguished for its high religious feeling, he knew that in many places it was the custom to keep the shops open in order to supply those necessaries which were absolutely requisite, and he thought that it would be much wiser to adopt this principle on rail ways. He thought that these persons were the great cause of the violation of the babhatli. No man felt more deeply than he did the necessity for rest from work on the sabbath, but he believed that no other persons were such great violators of the sabbath as those, who by their conduct contrived to render the sabbath nn popular. Earl FITZ WILLIAM thought that the most impor tant consequeneee to be considered on this, was not the travelling of a physician, but that the business should so be managed as not to do away with the confidence which was felt by the proprietors of landed property, he meant the substantial landed proprietors, in the right ad ministering of the rates. It was of the utmost import ance that there should he a confidence created between the town and the rural electoral districts. They ought to consider the two as one. Ile was sure that nothing toettercould be done than to induce the inhabitants of the coatis "• rues levied_ for the relief of the poor were prop er l y administered in ttie ruraiazszrtcrs,pacl that the inhabitants of the rural districts should feel that the rates levied were properly managed in the towns. He said the,- reasonableness of that would appear from a case of the f o ll ow i ng kind:—lf they suffer e d a poor but populous town—populous, he meant, in paupers —to have a rural district adjoining —a district which he would call well managed, where the rate for the relief of the poor was low—the effect which an act like that supposed should have, would be to release the rural dis trict from contributing to the relief of the poor of the town • and again to impose on the town entirely the re lief of their own paupers, which would effectually take away all the interest that the country would have in the relief of the town poor, as well as the interest which the town might hare otherwise expected to have in the poor assessmtnt of the country, because such dis trict would be entirely interested in the relief of their own poor. That was his urgent reason for saying that the district allotted in a system of poor assessment ought not to be narrow or confined. He said he had heard with pleasure the remarks of his Noble Friend, the Lord President of the Council (the Marquis of Laßs• downe), but he would have heard him with still greater satisfaction, if he had expressed himself plainly and definitely on this, that their Lordships would deal with this measure when it came up from the other House of Parliament, whatever might be the form in which it came before their Lordships—that they would deal with it freely and fully as they might think should be neces sary.—(llear, hear.) Lord MONTEAGLE begged to add the words sng- Waited by his Noble Friend to his motion. The_ motion was then agreed to. Wh eat ! Marquis of WESI'MEATH said, it gave Shim : tea El y ea h s i v a re to confirm the views adopted and advo often arising Noble Friend, as to the injustice and evil The Mar uirsom ill-assorted divisions of the baronies. an bumble tiLdreof LANSDOWNE begged to move that praying that shesthu?uld be presented to her Majesty, their Lordship's tabled graciously order to be laid on Lieutenant of Ireland co" of the letter from the Lord distress of Ireland. to the Home Secretary, on the Lord BROUGHAM said he would postpone the given notice for Monday, till motion, of which he had might interfere with the Thursday next, that nothing (Ireland) Bill. of the Destitute Per second reading in refer- As he had risen, he might take leavivinesotoodsay, that the the once to the subjeet under notice for panper a s Y int evil arising from the influx of Irish pool had actually increased. On Sunday last the4vlieLi been an immigration of 2,100 persons, and the day fol lowing as many as 2,200 had landed from Ireland. BISHONUC OF ENGLAND AND WALES. The Marquis of L.A.NSDOWNE begged to l a y copies of commissions made by her Majesty's Govern ment, as well as a correspondence on the subject, for an inquiry into the state of bishoprics in England and Wales. The Noble Marquis begged also to call the attention of the House to a matter of a personal nature, and which related to some members of the Church of England. He alluded to the Dean and Chapter of Manchester. Cer tain imfufations had been made by the noble Lord op polite, which were calculated to be detrimeutal to the I POOR REMOVAL BILL. Capt. GLADSTONE presented a petition from St. Clement's, Ipswich, against the Poor Removal Bill. UNIVERSAL PEACE. Mr. B. B. CABBELL presented petitions in favour of universal peace. 14AILWAYS IN IRELAND. Colonel CONNOLLY presented petitions from Man chester and other places, in favour of the Railway Bill for Ireland. REPRESENTATIVE GOVERNMENT. Dr. BOWRING presented a petition, respectably signed, from the town of Malton, praying for an ex tended system of representation. SMALL DEBTS IN WALES. Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition from the town of Abingdon, and places in South Wales, praying that the persons, appointed to administer the provisions of the :itnall Debts Act, might be persons conversant with the Welsh language. POOR-LAW. Mr. M. PIIILLIPS presented a petition from Man chester, prayicg for en alteration in the rate-paying clauses of the Poor-law. COPPER ORE. Mr. PARKER rresented a petition praying for the remission of all duty on foreign copper ore. POOR REMOVAL BILL. Mr. BENNErf presented a petition from Sudbury praying for an alteration in the Poor Removal Act of last seision. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. - - Mr. CHUTE presentel p e t i t ions , praying fur an alteration in the taw of Fettlement. POOR-LA IV AND HEALTH OF TOWNS. Sir WALTER JAMES presented a petition from the guardians of the Hull Union praying for an alters tioa in the present poor-law as regarded the Board of Commissioners, which they alleged was unsuited to the wants of the country; also a petition front:a society of architectural gentlemen praying the House to take mea sures to improve the sanatory condition of towns and cities by drainage, &c. COPPER ORE, &c. Mr. MILNER GIBSON presented a petition from Manchester, praying that the duty should be abolished on the ind,.nture of apprentices; also a petition from the Chamber of Commerce in that city, praying for the abolition of all duty on copper ore. REGISTRATION OF VOTERS. Sir WILLIAM CLAY presented a petition from certain electors of the Tower Hamlets, complaining that they are compelled to register themselves with every frell rate imposed upon the borough. PUNISHMENT OF DEATH . . Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from a public meet ing held in the National Hall, Holborn, praying for the abolishment of punishment by death. - - REDUCTION OF TAXATION. Sir 11. DOUGLAS presented a petition from Liver pool, numerously signed, praying the House to employ the surplus revenue to the purposes of reducing the taxa tion of the country, and not for the purpose of Irish relief. PUNISHMENT OF JUVENILE OFFENDERS. Mr. PAKINGTON gave notice that on Tuesday, tht 23d inst., he would bring forward a motion with respec to the more speedy punishment of juvenile offenders. IRISH RETURNS. Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL moved for a return from the commissioners for paving lighting, and cleansing the city of Dublin, of a copy of the existing contract for lighting the city with gas; copy of a letter from Edward Lucas, Esq., under-secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, to the Commissioners, dated Dublin Castle, the 25th day of June, 1844, in relation to the intended contract. Copy of the answer of the Commission.," i„ said kiter, dated the 29th day of June, 1844. Copy of the letter from the Commissioners to Mr. Lucas, dated the 12th day of July, 1844, on the same subjecet. Copy of the opinion of the Solicitor-General for Ireland, taken by the Commissioners, on said letter and contract. Copy of the bond taken from Mr. Peter Brophy and others by the Commissioners, on permission being given to open the pavements for the purpose of laying the pipes of the Alliance Gas Company. Return of such proceedings at law (if any) as have been resorted to by the Commissioners for any alleged violation of the con ditions of said bond, and the penalties incurred (if any). —Agreed to. ADVANCES FOR PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND.) Mr. J. O'CONNELL also moved for an account (since the Union) of all sums of money advanced on loan by the Imperial Treasury for public works, or other purposes, in Ireland ; specifying, in the case of each loan, the purpose for which, the parties to whom, the conditions on which, each such loan has been ad vanced ; and how far such conditions have as yet been complied with ; distinguishing all advances and repay ments made since the establishment of the Board of Works. Similar returns for England and Scotland. Also, a re , turn statin g the remittances of public money from th e British Exchequer to the Irish, and vice versa, down to the present time (in continuation of account'No. 2 of Ses sional Paper, No. 652, date Bth August, 1845). Also a return, stating the totals of relief of taxation to Great Britain and Ireland respectively, in each year, since liioo down to the present time (in eoetinuation of the return No. 573, of 1843). —Agreed to. LIGHT DUES. Mr. PHILLIP HOWARD presented a petion from the inhabitants of Carlisle against the light due; and praying the House to carry into effect the recommenda tion of the Committee, of which the Hon. Member for Montrose was chairman, appointed by that House to consider the subject. POOR REMOVAL BILL, Mr. BANKES presented a petition from the inhabitants of Penlyn, in the county of Cornwall, praying the House to pass some measure wholly to repeal, or materially to alter or amend the Poor Removal Act, passed in the last session of Parliament. Mr. h e S r, M t l h T e I s i e o' ere S t l a t r l y E f N wished orlrel an d t , o ask the whether h ßight eh a d ll r o e n : c h e a i d v e o d c c a u n r y r eodffiicni official a a n c c t r o y u . n t ileth(esinrt.tms.boer,Borfiedne)athhasdwhhieecnh informed that coroners' inquests had been held upon the bodies of 40 persons, who, within a very short period, had fallen victims to famine. Mr. LABOUCHERE regretted that the destitution was most severe in some districts, but every means at the disposal of the Government was adopted to relieve it. Mr. SMITII O'BRIEN asked if there was no measure of immediate relief for such a case as this? r Ct Governmentt InE concerningß E h a had no nwo it, doubt but the attentio n ' ancadllhede hadto niot. o h f im Mt s rh e .e lf L h Al a rir d i? w hl3 - doubt but measures would be take n to afford relief. CAMBRIDGE BURGESSES. Mr. WATSON presented a petition from several burgesses of Cambridge, complaining that they were not peed on the list of Toter& for that borough, though they were entitled to the franchise, and had taken the necessary steps to obtain it. DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion of Mr. LABOUCHERE, that the order of the day for the third reading of this Bill be read, NEWSPAPERS—PUBLICATION OF DIS• PATCHES. Mr. ROEBUCK, seeing the Noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs in his place, wished to put a ques tion. In the Alorning Chronicle of that morning, a dispatch, dated the 11 th instant, signed Palmer ston, and directed to the Marquis of Normanby, was published. It was not the matter of the dispatch with which he wished to find fault, but to the circum stance appearing in a newspaper before it could have reached Lord Normanby, to whom it was addressed, or the Court to whom the communication was to he made. Now he wished to know whether the appear ance of such a document in a public journal was not in contravention of the rules which regulated diplomatic correspondence, and contrary to the courtesy which should be observed with regard to such commu nication. He was exceedingly grieved to make this statement, as he believed that the conduct and the good faith of the political agents of the Noble Lord and of the Noble Lord himself with respect to the recent relations with France, had been completely vindistated. Still it was abso lutely necessary that the good faith, candour, and straightforward conduct of the Government should be maintained beyond all suspicion.— (Hear, hear.) The question he wished to put to the Noble Lord was this, and he was sure he would pardon him for doing so —had he any cognisance of any document of the kind? Lord PALNIERSION said the fact was, that yester day evening he laid on the table the continuation of the correspondence which he had previously laid before the House. That continuation contained the last dispatch of M. Guizot to Count Oliviera, which had been officially communicated to her Majesty's Government. It also con tained a dispatch from him (Lord Palmerston) to Lord Normanby, that there was no intention on the part of the Government to reply to that last dispatch. He certainly must return his thanks to the Hon. Member for the handsome manner in which he had spoken of the conduct of her Majesty's Govern ment, in connexion with these dispatches. These papers also contained a dispatch from Lord Nor manby, complaining of the inferences that mght be drawn from certain statements which had been made in the French Chambers ; also his (Lord Palmerston's) answer to Lord Normanby, stating that the confidence of the Government in him had not been shaken by anything that had passed.—(Hear, hear.) These papers, as he had said, were presented yesterday, and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman must be aware that a short time must elapse before they could be circulated to all the Members of the House.— (Hear, hear.) lie was sorry, that by some accident, the papers had not been generally delivered, but he begged to tender the lion. and Learned Gentleman his (Lord Palmerston's) copy. (The paper was handed bylhim to the lion, and Learned Member for Bath, amidst considerable laughter.) It might, he thought, be instructive to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. The Bill was then read a third time and passed. FEVER IN IRELAND. Mr. F. FRENCH wished to call the attention of the Hon, Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland (Mr. La bouchere) to the recent extraordinary increase of fever in Ireland. He had received several letters this day stating that fever was greatly on the increase. He wished to suggest that the valuable medical institutions of Ireland should be made available for the purposes of the ailing during the prevalence of the present calamity. Ye also wished to know what steps the Go vernment proposed to take in order to alleviate the suf ferings of those persons? Mr. LABOUCLIERE believed that the statement of the Honourable Gentleman was correct. Ho stated last session that, if the Government found it necessary, the Board of Health in Dublin would be renewed. The Lord-Lieutenant, owing to communications which had been made to him, had made that renewal, and the board had been in operation during the last three weeks. The attention of the Government was fully directed to the question. RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL. Lord G. BENTINCK moved the second reading of this Bill. Lord NEWRY presented a petition from Newry in favour of it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, before he directed his attention to the important mea sure before the House, he wished to offer a few observations on what bad already taken place. There were one or two aymptons of party feeling in the obser vations which fell from one or two gentlemen on the other side of the House. He was perfectly ready to believe that his Noble Friend was willing to abstain frem all partp expressions, and he could assure the Noble Lord that such was the feeling of her Majesty's Government. If the measure were carried, they were nut prepared to undertake the responsibility of carrying it out. But it was of such importance and magnitude, that they were not prepared to adopt it. A plan which was to give no teas a sum than sixteen m'llions— Lord G. BENTINCK—Not mere? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Not more. Those sixteen millions of money were not of such a light de scription, as would warrant the adoption, whatever the Govern ment might be inclined to do in minor matters, and accord ingly hie Noble Friend at once frankly stated that he could not undertake it, end that it should meet with his opposition. He confessed that he had great satisfaction in seeing ;he measure in the shape of a Bill, because, however lucid and clear the statement of the Noble Lord opposite might be, nevertheless it was surer, and more satisfactory to judge of a measure reduced into a shape, than merely a statement in that House ; and though, ho contested, that standing in the situ ation which he did, he was a little appalled at the Erst prospect of a loan of 16 millions, that feeling was in no degree removed, but to a considerable degree increased, when he saw the provisions of the Bill, provisions calculated to favour in many respects railways rather than distressed persons in Ireland, He had no douht that the Noble Lord had introduced the measure to relieve distress in Ireland, but he confessed that when he saw on the back of the Bill the name of a gentleman, the Lord Mayor of York, who was so deeply interested in railways, and the name of another gentleman, the Hon. Member for Westmoreland, who was so largely concerned in furnishing the materials of which these railways were constructed (Cheers) —he should have been surprised it the interest of the railway proprietors and shareholders had not been adequately considered. He did not mean to say that these were reasons why the measure should not be fairly considered and discussed, but he did think that it justified him in looking with a more critical eye at the provisions of the Bill than he should be disposed to do with a measure introduced simply for the relief of the people of Ire land. He would concede to the Noble Lord that an extension of railways in Ireland would be beneficial to that country. He would concede, moreover, that to a certain degree, but by no means to the extent supposed by the Noble Lord, labour in Ireland would be improved under the provisions of the Bill, and tt.at a certain number of destitute labourers would be provided for. He conceded all these points to the Noble Lord, and having con. ' ceded them, he thought that the Bill had also a tendency to establish certain other points which ought to be instantly explained to the satisfaction of the House. He had heard nothing advanced to cause him to admit the statement that the State should become a great money-lender, or to convince him that the security of railways in Ireland would be an advantageous security. He had heard nothing to convince him of the benefits that the distressed persons of Ireland would receive from the present Bill, that he should consent to the advance of such a large sum of money, proposed to be advanced as a loan. In the present state of the finances of the country, and the distress which so gene rally prevailed, he had heard nothing to justify him in adding so largely to the burdens of the people of this coun try. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") Far the sake of securing e fficient relief for the distress of Ireland, he could not ask the people of this country—themselves suffering under considerable difficulties and:privations—to consent to advance this large sum of money. Of this he was assured also, that the money would not be effective for the purpose. With regard to the first point to which he had referred, he was not of opi "-en that the State should become a joint money-!ender, irt that House to eeea badsu res f.i ex cept of it w as ceder most extraordinary circumstances, and with the sssura nce that lb. benefit s wou ld b e commensurate to the advance. Now, with improvement,fk.a .t some Gentlemen and fantastical " doctrine of political economy, he was quite persuaded that if the security was good, there would be no difficulty in getting advances from private individuals for the construction of these works. He doubted if, in the happy times which certain Hon. Members had referred to the times of feudality, there was any great disposition to advance sums of money for the public good, in order to serve the interests of the yeomen and the tenants on the landowners estates. It had also been complained that the rate of interest was too high, but this he submitted was the only check which the Government had that the money would not be recklessly required. It was only because the security was not equal to that required by private capitalists, that it was necessary to fix the rate of interest at higher than ordinary rates.—(Hear.) He believed that the greatest departure made from that prin ciple was made last year in the case of the Drainage Act, .and as far as Scotland was concerned it was fortunate that that measure was in existence, because the proprietors in that country had availed themselves of it, to ex tend employment to the labouring classes around them. But the measure itself was a measure of exception, and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not know that it could be defended. The Noble Lord had stated that these railways afford the most unexceptionable security. He was exceedingly sorry to say anything which might depreciate the value of these undertakings is the market, or to express any decided opinion as to the value of the securities which they might offer. But when he referred to the past transactions in Ireland, when he referred to the advances made to public works in Ireland, he was not singular in his doubts of the securities they had to offer. He remembered that canals were at one time in much the same situation that railways were now, yet he found, on referring to the Acts, that not one of these had paid the advances made from the public treasury. Now he scarcely need to refer to any of these old canals, but he might instance the Loggan Navigation, the money advanced . by Government in the case of this canal had not yet been paid. Soon after he had been honoured with the seals of office, which lie now held, a deputation from the Ulster Canal had waited upon him, they represented that unless the whole of the debt, due to Gover nmen t, were remitted, it wo u ld b e impossible for them to go on.—(Hear, hear.) The wh o l e estimate for that canal was 160,000/, 130,000/. of which h a d been advanced by the public. Yet, out of that 130,0e0/., not one payment of either principal or interest had been made. There was the Grand Canal, which was begun under the most favourable circumstances; it was not three years yet since the Act was passed, and an amount, in several sums of 40,000!., 33,000/., and another sum, amounting in all to 98,00 e/., was advanced by the public, yet this under taking was so unable to pay either principal or interest, that it was agreed that on the receipt of 10,0001., the amount of 98,0001. should be forgiven by the public. Before the existence of railways, when the promoters of these schemes were unable to obtain money from individuals, they applied to Government, and the result was that both principal and interest were altogether sacrificed. Other advances had been made, not to the poor and impover ished districts and parts of Ireland, but to some of the largest towns and richest cities in that country. Had they been re paid? No such thing. There was:novs due from the city of Dublin the sum of 245.0001. advanced to them and interest upon it, that was now considered quite irrecoverable. Advances had been made for the wide streets of Cork, 13,000/. principal, with 10,000 interest, but ne repayments had been made. The sum of 5 5,031.11, had been advanced W the city of Limerick, PRE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 13, 1P47 upon which there was now due 34,0001. of interest, but no payments of any kind had been made on account of either principal or interest. These were advances made, not to poor and impoverished districts. Thus, if they took advances made either for internal com munications, or to the three richest towns and cities in Ireland, the same result would be found—no repayment of either principal or interest, and all the advances and the interest had been sacrifices!. A distinction existed with respect to the advances in Ireland made to private individuals, which had in most cases been repaid, but the advances made to private com panies and undertakings of this description had, generally speaking, not been paid. The advances made to the Dublin and Kingstown Railway had, however, been all repaid.— (Loud cheers from Lord George Bentinck and his supporters.) He thought the Noble Lord would not, however, be able to discover any parallel between that railway and these country railways which he proposed to construct all over the country. If this, then, be so, and the fact was indisputable, he did not think that he was other than justified in saying that it was by no means so clear as the Noble Lord had supposed that the security to be afforded by these railways was of CO unexceptional a, cha racter.—( Hear, hear.) There was also another objection to the measure of the Noble Lord, especially if the measure was to be considered as a comprehensive scheme, because it would put both the good and bad schemes upon the same footing of equality. If the proposed examination of the Board of Works were to be of any avail, then if they were to reject all those mersures which they considered as inadequate security, the measure of the Noble Lord would not amount to the bene fit he seemed to attach to his measure; but if the Board should think fit to recommend all the schemes, then it would be a grievous injustice to those schemes among them which were considered as really solid or good ones. He had been in formed that the best of the lines now in the course of construction in which the companies had advanced sums sufficient to enable them to barrow under the terms of their Act, had been f some time borrowing money at 4% or 5 per cent. Upon the announcement of the plan of the Noble Lord, that the other railways would be able to obtain advances at 31 per cent.,tthe value of the shares immediately fell 1 per cent. Lord G. BEN TINCK—What line was that? CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The Great Southern and Western he believed. He would now call the attention of the House to the opinions of other persons beside himself as to the injurious effect of this measure. He would trouble the House by reading a letter he had re eeived from a very wealthy gentleman, residing in Dribkn— a gentleman whom he would not then name, but whose opinions were entitled to the greatest respect. He said in his letter, " If the Government were to give the means of obtaining advances of money at 3i per cent., the project would have the effect of rendering the most bankrupt con cern rich, and putting them upon a level with the best lines of the country. If the Government should be insane enough to yield to the cry persisted in for railways in Ireland without the most stringent conditions, and the most satisfactory explanations as to the proprietary and the paid up capital of those schemes, the railways in Ireland will become no more than mere sinks of speculation in that country. And if the provision requiring a certain amount of paid up capital in each company before they had the power to borrow were to be l e elenoe t vne e ryfro best mmuhe s of them.p a set aside, the effect would be to pl ace a ll th e wors t li nes i n the countryionmtintended ded to r e e g o provisions a which yellers lh o with gentlemen h He confessed when he looked at thi s Bill h e th oug ht th ere e s cu i l f at t i h o e n y a werewere which had not met their original expectations. For instance, the 29th clause provided that where any share holder could not pay up his calls the money advanced by the Government should be applied to the purpose. This looked very like helping the speculator rather than the public. That did not seem to be a provision to insure employment to the destitute poor. Then, again, there was the 31st clause, which provided that in the event of a company abandonieg works they should be taken up by the state who should be liable for all the debts and undertakings of the company. Now he did not think these were propositions calcula . ed to provide for the employment of destitute persons in Ireland. They were, however, he admitted, remarkably beneficial to shareholders.—( Hear.) He confessed a great nanny of the provisions of the Bill were better calculated for the relief of destitute shareholders than destitute persons.—(Loud cheers. ) There had been, however, a much more tempting project be fore the House than that of the Noble Lord. Some time before the introduction of the measure of the Noble Lord a meeting was held in Dublin of shareholders in different Irish railways, who agreed to a petition, which was subsequently presented to the House, asking—not for so large an amount of money as the Noble Lord sought—but for a much less sum, as they proposed that no advances should be made to the companies, except they had expended 20 per cent. of their capital, and that the Government should advance 30 per cent. when they had expended 501. per cent. of their capital..—(Hear, hear.) Thus they proposed that fur every 501. p'r cent. of their capital expended on the works, that the Government should advance 301. per cent. This he considered a much more reasonable proposition, as they only sought the Government to advance about / 4 ,000,0004, whereas the Noble Lord sought an advance of 16,000,6001., or two-thirds of their whole expen diture. It came from the parties themselves, and was a conch fairer proposition than the one proposed by the Noble Lord's Bill. The Government did not entertain that proposition, because they were about to propose large grants far the purpose of preventing actual starva tion ; and, whatever was then necessary for that purpose he should not hesitate to ask the House, but he dis tinctly refused to put a burden, or to risk the putting of a bur den of any kind, on the people of the country for the mere benefit of railway speculation in Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) By the calculation made on this subject by those parties, the ag gregate expediture was under 5,000,0001., but the Noble Lord proposed the expenditure of 16,000,000 i., upwards of two-thirds, and both proposed advantages nearly similar—they both proposed to employ a similar number of men, but which of the two was correct was not for him to say. It certainly was most extraordinary that the petitioners calculated to employ so many with one-third of the sum proposed by the Noble Lord. He believed that the Noble Lord when he stated that the capital of railway companies in Ireland was sixteen millions, had included the capital of those com pat.ies whose lines had been already executed—if such was the case a reduction should be made in the employ ment it would give.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord pro posed that railways to the extent of fifteen hundred miles should be executed, which would give employment to one hundred and ten thousand persons. Now if lie calculated the amount of capital of railways already constructed, it was likely he had fallen into the same error respecting the number of miles of railway to be laid down, and if such were the fact there should also be some reduction made. But without presuming to enter into any discussion on the subject with the Right Hon. Member for Sunderland, whose experience was ,probably far greater than that of any gentleman s in that House upon matters of the na ture they were discussing, he had made some inquiry as to the number of persons engaged upon the construction of a line, and he had obtained his information from a person of very great experience, who stated, that to the best of his belief, five-and te enty per cent. was the outside of the capital spent upon labour, five-and-twenty per cent, on four millions would leave about one million to be expended in labour. Taking the wages at ten shillings a week, and the number of men em ployed at twenty to thirty p er m i le, which was the average, it would l ea ve the number of men employed forty-five thousand instead of one hundred and ten thousand, as stated by the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord went on to say, that calcu lating that one hundred and ten thousand persons were em ployed by the measure, and multiplying that number by five, it would give support to fire hundred and fifty thousand per sons. He had shown the number likely to be employed, and thee did not come up to the calculation of the Noble Lord. He would make every allowance. He might be underrating the number, or his information might have underrated them, but between one hundred and ten thousand and forty-five thousand there was a very large difference; and he w fully borne out, that nothing like the number named by the Noble Lord would be employed by the measure. He thought that the Hon. Gentleman opposite was a very erro neous calculator as to the average number of labourers likely to be employed on railways, and from whose labour four per sons were to derive their substance. He thought that those able-bodied labourers who were employed on railways were not likely to have a family of four persons connected with them, and supported by their labour. He did not believe that any one wou ld get up in that House and say th a t h e b e li eve d that amongst the railway labourers distress was most prevalent in this country, and anybody who was at all conversant with the subject, and who had been in the neighbourhood of a railway in the course of construction, ust know that those pe-sons em ployed on railways were never family men, and seldom had any number of persons connected with them. They employed a considerable portion of their wages in good living, and con tributed, as the Noble Lord said, considerably to the Customs and Excise. Ho did not, therefore, think that there was a reason to sulipose that there would be anything like the amount of 550,000 parsons benefited, as the Noble Lord had stated. There was ano ther consideration in thi s respect which he thought of still more importance, which must be r ecollected also. ( Hear, hear.) The labourers employed upon railways were very seldom the class of persons w ho were in the worst state of destitution in Ire land. The Hon. Member for the University of Dublin had told them that he had been exceedingly anxious to bring cer """ Presentments under the Treasury minute, and his objec tion was, t hat h e found railways did not employ the unskilled • labourer; that was also the., case in other parts of the country. It was distinctly proven the other day, in the ease of a railway passing near the residence of agentleman , residing in the s outh of Ireland, that the contractor brought all his own workmen with him, and not one single person in the neighbourhood was employed. Early in October last, a Treas ur y minute was issued, empowering baronies to make presentments for the e arth out of that minut e earth work of railways. In the considerable difficulties had arisen with the baronies as to the employment of the labou rers on the spot. Subsequently Subsequently to the issuing of the minute, had received a deputation from a number of gentlemen in terested in Irish railways, who asked him what course they o the ought to take. They complained that in a great number f because the baronies, presentments could not be obtained, railway companies would net employ the labourers of each barony through which the lines passed, in prefe rence to skilled lab our e r s. The railway com p anies said it would not be fair for them to repay the baronies in full for the presentments they would make, and at the same time compel them to employ their unskilled labourers, but they expressed th emse l ves w illi ng to employ them in pre ference to skilled labourers, providing the baronies would be at the loss of the difference between employing the two.—( Hear, hear,) The baronies would not do so —they refused to submit to make good this difference, to make up this small loss ; yet these were the very ulite; in Ireland , w ho were com p lainin g of presentments being made for unprod uctive works. This was the diffi cu lty which had attended the o p eration of the Treasury minut e . But there had been one railway for which presentments had been made to a considerable extent ; the Waterford and Limerick Railway. In four baronies through which the line passed, presentments had been made for 78,0001., but the moment this wa s done, a letter from the secretary had been received, stating that the company did not find it suit them to employ the destitute labourers of the Board of Works in preference to independent labourers. In fact, such labourers as the baronies supplied did not suit.—( Hear, hear.) What he said was this, that the measure for promot ing the construction of railroads might be a good one for the proprietors, but as regarded the relief of the destitute poor in Ireland, it was utterly and altogether useless. The result of experience was that railway companies employed skilful labourers from all parts of the country, where ever they could get them, while it should be the object of that House, and the country and the Government, to afford relief to the unskilful labourer, who was starving__ (Hear, hear.) He believed that it was impossible to unite the employment of one class with the relief of the other. There was another circumstance which was worthy the consideration of the House, and it was this—if any person took the trouble of looking at the map of Ireland, he would find that the m ass o f Irish railways were to be constructed on the east side of that c o untry, namely, from Dublin to Cork, and from Cork to Limerick. Now, the destitution and distress which prevailed in Ireland, existed not so much on the east as on the western side of the island. These were the persons who lived upon seaweed in consequence of the failure of the potatoes ; these were the persons who really suffered the greatest amount of hardship ; these were the persons among whom disease and destitution were making fearful ravages. IVere these persons to be relieved by the con struction of railways on the opposite side of the country ? He believed that he had shown that even for the destitute persons in even the counties and baronies through which the railways undo fife railways would afford but very little relief; but for the relief of persons living on the other side of the island, sixty or seventy miles from the part of the country where the railways was being constructed, the measure would be a total failure.—( Hear, hear.) Why, if it were possible that rail way directors would sympathise in a great degree with the miseries of the labourer, that sympathy would be bounded by the necessity that existed for not sacrificing the interests of the shareholders.—( Hear, hear.) But if they brought up labourers from other parts of the country, and neglected the resident poor, what would be the result ? What but an imme diate riot. Why they found that even in England they had faction fights between the Irish and English labourers. The result would be that the persons brought there as labourers would inevitably fie ill-used and probably driven off. This being so, and believing as he did, and as he had shown to the House his reasons for believing, that the measure would not prove adapted for the relief of the really destitute, even in those parts of the country through which the proposed railways would pass, because those parts of the country were not the parts which were the most distressed, and that those parts of the country where relief was most needed no available assistance would be rendered by the measure. lie had also shown that the present pressure upon the Government, the state of the finances, and the depressed state of the country rendered the measure of the Noble Lord totally unfitted to receive the support of the Government. The Government were prepared to abandon the mode of giving assistance by means of public or other works, because they found that the sums so expended did not go so far in the relief as they should do, and that a considerable waste had taken place in the expen diture of the public money, and that a considerable por tion of the sums paid by this country did not effectually afford relief to the distressed people of Ireland. It'. then, that be a good and valid season fur aban doning and discontinuing that system of affording relief, and he thought it was, and the other system which the Go veernment were prepared to adopt, would cause the same sums to go much farther towards the relief of the existieg distress, then he thought those circumstances conclusive against the doctrine of the Noble Lord. Upon the data which he had laid before the House, it uppeared, that one quarter only of the funds had been made available for the employment bf labour, and that the labour so employed would not be that de scription of labour, for those which the Government were most anxious to find relief. lie was well aware that this scheme had, in the opinion of many lion. Members. great charms, because it would afford some employment for the people of Ire land, and the Government were told that if this great scheme were rejected to what other sources were they to look for the relief of the people of Ireland? If there were no other scheme before the House it might be made some reason for pressing this measure. But if there be other schemes before the House, the expenditure of which was very large and tended more directly to the relief of the poor, then he said that the argu ments fell to the ground, an d there was no reason for adopting the present scheme, in preference to other schemes based sim ply upon the advance of large sums to Ireland. He did not mean to deny that if a large amount of English capital were to be carried into Ireland it would be of considerable utility to that country. When, however, such advances were to be made from the produce of English taxa tion, the House ought to consider the subject before they gave their assent to such a measure. The House must be just before they were generous, and that they should watch carefully over any grants that might he made, and see that they were properly applied. Taking into consideration the present amount of the distress in Ireland, it should be con sidered that the measure which had been read a third time this evening (the Destitute Persons Relief Bill), involved a considerable outlay, and would also afford effectual and imme diate relief to the distress of the people of Ireland. The vo luntary and unaided exertions of many districts in Ireland had supported the whole starving population. Not many days ago, he had received a letter from one district relating that a number of persons, who were but little removed from destitution, by their own exertions had raised the sum of 1761., and supported the destitute poor, of which sum 1361. were subscribed by the farmers, and only 401. by the landed proprietors. He never read an account with greater pleasure and satisfaction, and it gave him hope that the condition of Ireland might still be im proved by her own exertions. Ile regretted, however, that the same post brought him another letter, from the county of Mayo, and there he found the landlords were pursuing a system of ejectment far beyond anything ever attempted yet. The processes entered at the quarter sessions of Balleybay were 6,400, of which 4,000 were at the suit of the landlords. The consequence was, that the people were flyiee from the spot, and no doubt many of them h a d b een l an d e d in Liver pool. He despaired of improving the condition of Ireland while this system was going on. The Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck), asked the ether night to what extent the means which had been prepared for the relief of Ireland would be carried. He had a right, and the country had a right to demand informa tion on such an important matter. Before many days passed he should be able to state definitely to the House the extent of the relief which the Government proposed should be given to that country. He was surprised to hear the Hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien) inquire when this enor mous expense was to cease ? Enortnoes he could not believe it to he, so long as persons were suffering from starvation in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) But however the lion. Members for Limerick and Wycombe might despair of the success of the measure which the Government had proposed; yet they, and others failed to point out any other measures which would accomplish the objeet which they had in view better.—(Loud cheers.) If he thought this scheme of lending money to Irish railways was a better scheme than those the Government had proposed—that it would bring both food and salvation to the people who were starving in Ireland— he should not be ashamed to adopt it, from .whatsoever quarteri t came, not less from the Noble Lord opposite, than from other lion. Members, but believing that it would not answer the end for which it was preposed, and as no suggestions had been made by those resident in Ireland, and practically acquainted with the question for the framing of a better mea sure, he should rely as confidently as he could rely upon the measures of the Government, as those best calculated to afford relief to the indigent people of Ireland at the present moment. In saying this, h. was perfectly aware that it was not enough to deal simply with the present calamity, as he believed that measures must be framed which must go much further than dealing with the starvation of the people.—(Loud cheers.) He was fully convinced that a great change—a revolution, he might say —in the social condition of the people of Ireland was necessary.—(Cheers.) He had long entertained that opinion, and had expressed it before he had the honour to hold his pre sent office—six weeks before, and immediately after he had had an opportunity of reading the papers which arrived at that time from Ireland. So fir back as September last he expressed his opinion that, in addition to the question of starvation, there were others of a much snore important character. which that distress had shown more than ever necessary. In fact, from the present suffering much good could not fail to be derived. The failure of the potato was not the least important. The plots of land ceased to be valuable where they failed to produce crops, so that those ag arian outrages which took place for the purpose of obtaining land would in all probability cease when that land ceased to be valuable. Labourers who came to this country for the purpose of labouring in the harvests in England and Scotland did so in the full confidence that their families in Ireland would derive support from the patch of potatoes during their absence. Now this would no longer be the case. Though the people of Ireland might no longer be maintained by the potato which they cultivated, if advantage were taken of the calamity, they could not fail to be placed in a better condition. Then he believed that a change will have taken plat in Ire land which would tend materially to the future benefit of the country, but it was an exceedingly different thing to interfere, as now proposed. The Irish came over to England to work upon railways to get in the hay harvest, end the other crops, but they had yet to learn the use of stated employment and wages from day to day, that was a mode of employment far more conducive to the establishment of a sound relation between master and man, farmer and labourer, in Ireland, than any landlord or tenant Bill whatever. To promote a system of labour for Ireland, not upon railroads, but upon agriculture, a Bill had been introduced, carrying out to a greater extent the principle of making advances to the landed proprietor in Ireland. Much had been said most unjustly against them ; he believed by means of the Government measure many will be induced to cultivate their land, who, heretofore, has not paid sufficient attention to the improvement of their estates, and he was also of opinion that a great quantity of land, by means of this system, would be brought into a state of cultivation, affording in creased quantity of food and employment for the people. Their first duty and care ought to be to increase Ike production of the soil, and the means of agricultural employment. Other Bills there were of a similar description with which it was not necessary to go into at any length. They were Bills for the improvement and drainage of waste lands; and all these Bills were framed with the object of improving the soil and increasing the food of the country. For these purposes he was inclined to make any advance necessary, and for the purposes of present relief, and he was sure that the poorest classes in Ireland would willingly bear their share for the assistance of their Irish bre thren ; but when he heard, day after day, of the distress in the country, and knew that many of the mills were stopped, he should ho ashamed to come to the House and ask for advances to be taken out of the country. For these reasons he would oppose the measure of the Noble Lord, and move that it be read that day six months. Mr. BAILEY opposed the motion. He could not consent to the present measure for the construction of railways in • Ire land when Scotland was in the same condition of distress. He would not agree to the Arent for Ireland unle•s there was one for Scotland also.—( Hear, bear.) The people of Scotland were suffering from a similar calamity which was afflicting the people of Ireland ; but because the landed population of that country were trusting to their own resources they heard nothing of grants for public works.—( Hear, hear.) With the permis sion of the House, he would point out the course the proprietors of Scotland had taken to meet the national crisis, and he saw no reason why the proprietors of Ireland should not have adopted similar means. In doing so, he would take the ex ample of t wo propr i etors in the county which he represented, not because they were more entitled to notice than many others in S co tl an d, b ut b ecause they had come more especially under his n o ti ce . Th ey were the chief proprietors of the island of Skye—Lord Macdonald and Mr. Donald Macleod. Skye contained 26,000 inhabitants, while the rental was 25 00 d. year. It was m an if est that at the present price of grain this rental would not support the population more than two months. Had not these landowners taken early precautions the whole popul a ti on wou l d have been starving. The potato cr o p which supp or t e d t h em nine months in the year, had been an entire failure, and the oats by which they we re ma i n t aine d t h e other three, h a d a l so been short. He did not believe there was any part in Ireland which was in a worse condition. In Aegust last, they were aware of the total failure of the potato crop in the island, bu i t m th m e e y d d ia id t not l wait till the calamity over took them, but they applied to the Government for a loan, for which they offered e' the Act, t uri h ty u of their estates. They were referred to the Drainage that it would not answer their purpose th t e t pr ey se a n a r form. ' They met the views of the House, and the House e made such amendments in the Drainage Act a e s , m a e l t the views of these Gen tlemen. The people in the Highlands had, in consequence, been set to work at drainage and the culture of land. Of course, in so large a population, there must be many persons who could not get labour—(Hear, hear) and who must be supported. These had received some little assistance from the relief committee at Edinburgh, but, with that exception, the single and undivided support of the peop le had be en b orne b y the Scottish landlords. He knew not if their resources could carry them through the harvest, but at all events they had the singular honour of having made their best endeavours to meet the difficulties of this crisis. Now, with respect to the measure of the Noble Lord, he could very well understand why the Right Honourable the Lord Mayor of York could easily convince himself that the construction of railways was a universal panacea for every evil.—(Laughter.) But he was really astonished that the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, should consider that the future prosperity of Ireland might be trusted to such a system. Instead of depending on a railway system, it were better that they turned their attention to the cultivation of land, and if the population of that country were to have a better description of food, and he prayed God that they might, that could only be procured by a better system of cultivation, which would ultimately, he thought, relieve that country from her present distresses. He had already stated that he did not rise for the purpose of consi dering the question before the House, but simply to protest in his character of a Scottish representative against this outlay of the public money. 1f they wished to assist Ire land, let them grant the proprietors every facility by way of loan for the improvement of their lands. Let the Govern ment have good security for the money advanced, and let them leave the outlay to the Irish proprietors, who were the per sons most favourably circumstanced to superintend the distri bution of it. Mr. STUART agreed with the Hon. Member for Inverness in the compliment ho hMI paid 'to the Scottish proprietors, whose mode of meeting the present evil had made it unneces sary for this House to consider for their sake any one of those important measures, which they were now compelled to con sider, with reference to the alleviation of L ish distresses. When they were discussing questions to relieve the present calamities of Ireland, it was essential that everything calculated to excite acrimonious feelings should be avoided, and he wished that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had followed the course which he himself had laid down on this subject. But, so far from doing so, to his surprise, the Right Hon. Gentle man had referred to personal considerations, and had mer l e Boned the names of the Gentlemen upon the back of the Bill. He thought that if any two names in the kinsedom were more calculated than others to give force to a measur e of this description, they were the names of the Hon. Members for Sunderland and Westmoreland. He denied altogether the character which had been given to this measure. He denied that any man who looked into it could say, that it was a measure prepared for the relief of the share holders and other persons connected with railway's. The avowed purpose of the Bill was to stimulate railways in Ireland, and thus promote labour. They were told that the Government was not a set of money lenders to ad vance money on these occasions. If that were to be so, the objection applied equally to all the measures which they had been discussing for the relief of Ireland. The object of the Bill under discussion was, that the Government should inter pose its credit for the assistance of works of a public nature— ( Hear, hear)—likely to employ the people. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said in answer, that the plan had already failed, and he referred to the case of the Ulster Canal as an instance of money lent, and lost to the country. He reterred to the work of Mr. Porter, who had applied his attention to the subject of the money lent to the Ulster Canal, and to its effects, and he found that this gentleman speaking of the canal, says that during its progress the work proved a great blessing to the district through which it passed, and gave constant employment at fair wages to a great number of labourers, and cured them to a great extent of their passion for ardent spirits, and enabled them to save money out of their wages. The instance to which the Right Hon. Gentleman referred to as a failure, he referree to as a suecess, and he asked if it had not proved a blessing to the country ? And though it was an improvident loan it weir of real service to the labourers and other classes. Another public work referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as an instance of money lost to the country was the Dublin and Kingstown Railway, to which money was lent. They had before them many returns of the extravagant cost of railways in their construction, but the Dublin and Kingstown Railway beat them all. for it cost no less than 60,0001. per mile, arid yet, with all these disadvantages, the railway had contrived to pay the money advanced and now returned a profit of 9 per cent. A reference was made to an Hon. Member for Scotland, and when that Hon. 'Mem ber was referred to, he (Mr. Stuart) was surprised why he, above all men, had not spoken in favour of tne expenditure made by Government. if Lord M'Donald and Mr. M'Leod of M'Leod were enabled to support the poor upon their own estates, was it not owing to the money expended in the coun try by Government, and which had conferred the most lasting benefits to the country ? It was matter of notoriety, that not only had the condition of Scotland been improved by money advanced by wise statesmen one hundred years ago, but of late the money advanced by private enterprise had materially tended to the improvement, and enhanced the value of the coun try. There had been formed in Scotland, at the Government expense, 1,186 miles of road, and more than 1,000 bridges. Mr. Porter had applied his attention to Ireland, and he had already referred to his account of the result of the loan to the Ulster Canal ; and he would now refer to Mr. Griffith, one of Mr. Porter's authorities, to show the material benefit of interna tional communication between even the most barren districts of Ireland. He had referred to the district between Cork, Kerry, and Limerick, in the year 1822, as one of the worst districts in Ireland, and the refuge and habitations of White bays, smugglers, and robbers ; and on the formation of a turnpike road, the country in 1829, only seven' years after, presented an appearance of very considerable inprovement and industry. Mr. Nimmo, another of Mr. Niter's authorities, had also referred to this subject, and stated, speaking of a part of the come y of Kerry, that a few years since there was not a decent public house in it, and the nearest poet-office was thirty miles distant ; and since the new road was made the most considerable improvements had manifested themselves. He would ask any Hon. Member what in a financial point of view was the result of the constructions of those works of in ternal communication, and whether it had not contributed materially to benefit the revenue of the country, and to im prove the social condition of the people ?—(Cheers. ) The measure of the Noble Lord had been called, most unfairly, a measure to promote speculation and gambling, and to put the money of the English tax-payer into the pockets of the Irish landlords. It was easy to demonstrate to any person, who would take the trouble of inquiring into the subject, that when the Noble Lord was accu,ed of bringing forward a people for such a purpose, and calling upon the people of England to pay whe ther they would or not a large sum of money for the construc tion of Irish railways, that never was there a misrepresentation more gross, or one which showed more convincingly the igno rance of those who made it.—(Cheers from Lord George Ben tinck. ) He ventured to tell the Hon. Member for Bath, who seemed to take so much interest on behalf of the tax-paying people of England, more even than they did themselves, that neither he nor the people of England would be called upon to put their hands in their pocket for a single sixpence. The way in which the money was proposed to be raised was such as, he would venture to say, that, if the Hon. Member fur Bath, were carefully to consider, he would feel inclined to give the measure his most cordial support.—(Cheers. ) It was not proposed to take 4,000,0001. per annum from the taxes of the country. What was proposed was this, that if good security were given, money should be advanced to the different railway companies, upon the credit of the Govern ment.—( Hear, hear.) No advances would be made until a mest searching scree my had been instituted by an officer appointed by the Government, into the merits of the raelway requiring the loan, and until the receipt of whose certificate was obsained as to the probability of the line when constructed being such as to afford ample remuneration to the share holders, and also whether the line were of such a nature as would afford immediate employment to the people and benefit to the cout.try, but not till then, was the credit of the Govern ment to be pledged.—(Cheers from Lord G. Bentinek's party.) If the money was raised by means of Exchequer Bills, Government security would be given to them, and any person would be at I:herty to purchase them or not, at his pleasure. The capital of the Exchequer Bills had the security of the Government pledged for the payment of the principal and interest of those Bilis. Those Exchequer Bills would only be issued upon the certificate of the Government officers, who seas to report upon the merits of the scheme, seeking the aid of the Government.—( Cheers.) It was not a compulsory measure to intitle the holders of all shares to come in for a general scramble of the public money. Lord G BEN . FINCK—The officer of the Government was to be held responsible for the report which he made. Mr. STUART—His Noble Friend had rightly reminded him of the responsibility of the Government officer who, if he should make a false report, either by fraud or by error, was to be held responsible to the Government and the House. The issue of Exchequer bills would not be the only mode of raising the necessary money for this purpose; there was another mode, which was by the issue of loan debentures similar to those issued for the construction of railways in Canada, making the interest payable at the Bank of England, and guaranteeing the security of the consolidated fund for the repayment of the principal and interest.--(Cheers). It was nothing new for the Government to interfere in the construction and manage ment of railways. In Belgium and France the Government had interfered to a great extent, and although in Belgium the rates of fares were so low as not to pay a fair rate of interest for the money expended in the construction of the railways, still considerable benefits had resulted to the revenue at large in consequence of the advantages possessed by the people in their cheap mode of conveyance.—(Hear, hears.) In his opinion he was borne out by the statements of Mr. Porter who, in his remarks upon the subject of the railways in Belgium, stated, "that although the interest ob tained from the railway was only a nominal per tentage, still the nation at large reaped anmeasurahle advantages from the dimini•hed charges of conveyance, which hid been of immense benefit to the people at large. Some Honourable Mem bers seemed inclined to oppose the measure, fearing that another and greater calamity would arise, upon the grounu of the Prime Minister of the country having threatened to re sign if the measure were carried. It was not impossible to see that some embarrassment and difficulty would exist in conse quence of their resignation. He hoped, however, that Hon. Members would not be induced to vote in opposition to their honest opinions upon this subject in consequence of this threat. The Right Hon. Baronet, the late Prime Minister of England, once came down to the House, and used the same threat, and stated that if the House did not rescind their resolution he would resign. Some Hon. Members, certainly not much to their credit, in their anxiety to return the Right Hon. Baronet to power, accordingly rescinded their votes, and the threat of the fearful resignation was not carried out. At a later period during the last se•sion the Right Hon. Baronet endeavoured to use the same threat upon the Irish Coercion Bill. He was not, however, able to keep himself in power by such means, and all the efforts to keep him in power had proved unavailing. He hoped, therefore, that Hon, Members who were inclined to support the measure would not be the less inclined to do so in consequence of the threat of the Prime Minister to resign if th e p resen t measure were carried. People might say, however, that Belg.um was a country where the Guvernment was despotic, arid held mere power than any Government, ever which the people had more control. tell, what was the case with Great Britain, where the peopl • had the greatest influence? tie would take the American Go vernment —a Government who were wi-e arid prudent, and who would weigh well, not only the stork itself, but the mode of doing it. What did Mr. Porter say of this Government ? by that the New York canal, a work of great public import ance, was constructed by capital borrowed on the credit of that Government. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that no such outlay should take place, unless in a case of great emer gency ; but he would ask, when the States which he had re ferred to, who were wise and selfish, had executed such works, could any one doubt fora moment but Ireland apart Croat the great importance of the works themselves, had an especial demand of such works? It was said that the money on them from her present circumstances for t le l j eo b n e s a tru i e f t t io t n o 'h a o n u d t so absurd g as the Irish landlords, but that . was b for y hat: thequestion hea head not to o w r e e r es e u itrheeaw objectionsord rn b ade t h s e mockery Nohle refutation. ; , .1; 6 . Co was, that it jec' S to induce them to reject it. His first o of the Government to the . proposed scheme of sufficient weight would give a preference to some railways over others. Suppose he admitted that, how . wete the i publicsurerto ? That was, in his opinion, no justification for the rejection of t scheme. The next objection he matte was, that he was afield they would only employ the able-bodied. But he would a s k was t h at no benefit ? If the money to be expended was to b e employed in that way, he considered that this would be a material benefit to the labourer who was not able-bodied, for it would leave him to be employed on works of a less laborious character. But the Noble Lord said, that the railroads were on the east coast, and the st arvat i on was all on this west. Such an objection was, in his opinion, absurd, for who could doubt but the a bl e b o di ed of Galway' and Mayo would le sort to the east, to the north, and to the smith, where employment was to be procured.—(Ch eers ) These arguments we re a moc k ery.—(Cheers.) For, as his Noble Friend beside him reminded him, why did the poor of Ireland dock to L iverpoo l , and other parts of England.— L ( C o r h d, ees r w s e . ) r e s 1 0 l tat contingenttliere r a i lawnadysr,eminotte in theirheopin benefits,ion ottle as s b t l o e make them u nava ili ng f or the relief of the existing distress. But he would as k , was giving the people of Ireland imme diate employment no benefit ? Now, this system of railways, proposed by the Noble Lord, would give immediate employ was adopt e d, ment, and h e h a d t h e most sanguine hopes that, if the s cheme the greatest benefits, and the greatest blessings would be conferred on the Irish people.—(Cheers.) Mr. F. T. BARING thought, th . at if the lion. and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down had directed his attention to the arguments of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, insmad of dwelling on topics which were not so immediately connected with the measure, the House would be in a better position to judge whether these arguments could be answered. But, in stead of that, the Learned Gentleman declined to meet these arguments, and made a long speech on a variety of subjects which were not relevant. He would not follow him through these topics, but confine himself to the state of the finances. Now, he should like to know how the money would be raised for this immense outlay. It was said that it could be raised without diffi culty, but of this he had very great doubt, and if they issued the Exchequer brills, the Noble Lord who informed them last night that he was rea dy t o ass ume the responsibility of Government, might find that they would not go off se particu larly easy in the money market.—(Hear, hoar.) Excheqatr bills were at present wavering on the borders, and let them take care when these Exchequer bills should be issued they should have to raise the interest not only on the four millions but off their other millons.—( Hear, hear.) He must say that if that would be a benefit to the people of England, he had very lit t e confidence in the financial management of the Noble Lord. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that they were quite sure of repayment for the advances, but when he came to that part of the subject he glided into the advantages which would. in a general way, be derived from public works. He would. ask, however, if they received repayments in similar cases when money had been advanced? If they were paid the advances on the Kingstown railway, he would ask if they rested their argu ment only on that?—( Hear, hear.) The Learned Gentleman then fell hack upon the circumstance that due supervision would be exercised over the security that would be required on the advances. He was afraid, however, if they did that the Lein would not be likely to have extensive operation in Ireland. Oue of the objects tea , to employ the labouring population. If they gave the advances only to these lines which were likely to pay, the consequence would be that the bad lines which ran through the most impoverished districts, would be neglected, and the people who lived in those districts would be unemployed.— ( Hear, hear.) The arguments in favour of the scheme rested on two grounds. The first was, the temporary aevantage it would confer under Vie present circumstances of leeland, and the eceend was, the permanent advantage that would result. But the House were informed that only 1,000,000/. out et every 4,000,001. advanced would be paid for labour. He pre tested, on behalf of the people of England against giving ad-- vantage to Irish railway shareholders, by allowing them to use for their sole advintagef the capital of the people of England. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Stuart) contended that employment would be given in places where the people stood most in need of it ; but as railways did not run through parts of a county where there was little or no trade, and where the people were in a destitute condition, no advantage would be given to those parts.—( Hear.) To pour in money into the east of Ireland, without corresponding advantages to the west, would do little good It would be useless to pour money , into the east whilst the people in the west were starving. Then, when a railway ran through a destitute district, the people ite that district who stood so much in need of employment, would not obtain employment.—( Hear ' hear.) Even the Hon. Gen leman (Mr. Stuart) had not denied that. It was true he had employed the arguments of political economy to show that if a certain number of persons were out of the labour market, others would fill their places ; but instead of the destitute poor of Ireland being employed, skilled " navvies" from England would be employed. Any' one who had read the blue books, which had been published, relating to the condition of Ireland, could not fail to be of opinion that it was net advantageous to employ men in masses, but that it was to britale as far as possible, the work to their own doors.—( Hear, hear.) That object would not certainly be obtained by this Bill. Thy Bill had been represented as a great and comprehensive mese"' sure, and the Hon. Gentleman had devoted a great part of his to quoting authorities—Mr. Porter amongst the mum' her—to ghow that it was entitled to come under this definitsesee He admitted that in some instances it was advisable for the Government, in some cases, to advance money for the construction of great public works. In 1839 he voted for Mr. Drummond's Bill with respect to Irish railways-(" Hear, hear," from Lord George Bentinek )—but he never had more difficulty in giving a vote in his life, than he did on that tie' cation, and subsequent considerations had not removed thee difficulty. Such undertakings as railways ought, he thought, to be left to private and indivicual enterprise. Other countries had followed a different course with respect to railways, and the systems were not deficient in advantages ; none of which were to he found in " this great and comprehensive measure." Did Belgium advance money to railway companies? No. it took the whole railway communication of the country into it , own hands. But he should have objected to such S project if it had been proposed. But the management of railway by the Sta e possessed great advantages. In the hand ° of private persons they were monopolies,' but as in the oche" case the Post-office would have free transit, and the people would have the advantage of travelling at a moderate rate. be; cause railways, in that case, would virtually be the pr o perty o f the public. The Noble Lord's measure proposed nothing 1, the kind. There were great advantage s t o th e p ropr i e tor o railways, but no advantages to the public, as in Beigiuess. After the passing of the Bill the monopoly in railways would be the same as before. The lines would go on, but those which did not would be handed over to the Govetnment. -- ' ( Loud cheers.) That unquestionably would be the result. What be said was, deal with the pressing emergency first' and then calmly deliberate on such a project. That, certainly was not the time for such a measure. France , for instance, did not advance funds to parties fee the construe' tion of railways without securing great advantages in return. The mails passed over the lines free of expense, but there was no such provision here. They granted a lease for a certain number of years, at the expiration of which they fell into the hands of the Government, in trust for the benefit of the public. The advantages derived from such a system wer e stated to be so great, that if this country had adopted it when railw a ys were fi rs t cons t ruc t e d, th e p ro fit s w hi c h t h ey w oulle have produced would have paid the national debt.—(Hea r ' hear, and cheers.) This certainly could not be accom plishe'e by the proposition of the Noble Lord ; as it seemed to him so deficient in advantages, that he was Nee prised that the lion. Gentleman, the Member for Essex, (S it J Tyrrell), should sueport it. It was not capable to meet the emergency of the present moment, and was wholly cit e cent in the requisites for a pe rmanent measure altogether. e" however, they lent 16 000,0001 out of the funds destined for the employment of the people of England, for the ensp!er merit of the people of Ireland, they should have some equivai lent advantage in ret urn . A n d if they followed the po lice° foreign Governments, at least let them follow their prudence also; and do not let them advance their money, not for the purpose of meeting the emergency of the moment, but for the purpose of adding t o th e strengt h o f monopo ly. and would not accomplish the object for w hi c h i t was b r ought forward -( Hear, hear. ) the.l. e'Y Rr rescue L o said,f Goverment 0 v a e l trhmoeungth theythe Hon.had w com S e to ir extraordinary things in the conduct of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, arid his conduct on thi s occasion had shown this Gietnntelsts•medan some had more forcibly. He had travelled through various parts of Ire land, and witnessed the lamentable distress of the people. The poor-law of Ireland was extremely defective, so much so that he feared no proper machinery could be devised. He thought that the measures proposed by her Majesty's Government— their " potato arid kettle measure," and their soup ticket mea sures"—utterly :ailed in comparison to the measures of the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had, improperly he thou ht, made the question one of " confidence." He did feel most anxious to ascertain what were the sentiments which the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tarae - orth held on this occasion, but neither he nor the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had as yet thought proper to favour the House and the country with their opinions. But as they ha d I not that satisfaction, it might be pl easing t o th e country to I know what were th e o pi n i ons w hi c h th e Ri g ht nourabble Gentleman formerly held and it was po':, Bible that the N o bl e L or d a t t h e h ea d o f t h e Governmen t might asrive at a proper conc l us i on o f w h at t h ose opiniel were, by arguing that th e y were now exact l y th e r everse 0 what they formerly were.—(Laeghter.) In March, 1639. °"a question of a grant of mo ne y t o I re l an d f ur t h e pur poses 0 ' railways, the Member for 'l'amworth stated that the mood difficulty was the last which he contemplated, and that if h e opposed the adoption of th e measure, h e desire d that it might not be understood that the gr een d of his objection to it would b e mone y.—( He a r ' ) fi e let it once be shoe n unto him th a t th e measure wou ld belie Ireland, and the expense attend an t wou ld nut d e t er him frc: :o adopting it. But that he gre a tly f eare d th at t h e ver y propo: would expose the Government to enormous difficulty, from I . f , interest or the proprietors of th e esta t es cont i guous to the di a ferent lines. In the county of Essex e f he sum of eixty thoug e e had been expended in law pro c e e di ngs i n t h e C o l c h es ter an Harwich line, which was only twenty miles long. It w as monstioss that such a suns should b e th us l os t. H e w ould b every Member in the b o x t o p rove t h e grea t d ange r seb c e, arises from Weenie these kind of specul a tio ns t o p r i va te ent er , prise. Any pers o n coming down to th e blouse, about f ee d o'clock, would find the s treet & t h rongs d w i t h l ega l me n ee their blue bags. He firmly b e li eve d t h at two - t hi r d s of th e e , jewellery in L on d on ea• purc h ased by members of the le7V profession.—( Great laughter.) Mr. DILLON BROWNE said he was not influenced iU the vote which he was about to give by the statement of any threat threat on the pa r t o f th e Government ; in fact, he belie ved that no thr e at was rea ll y h e ld out. He was not prepared to support the proposition of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, because he conceived by such a vote he would be de claring a confidence in the Noble Lord,and a want of confide" ; in her Majesty's Minist ers . U n d er no circumstances WTI, d he be prepared to supp or t th e p o li cy o f th e Nob le Lord until he found out from him what wa r his intentions respecting the political amelioration Ireland. He could not forget that the party of which the Noble Lord was the powerful and intelligent leader, for cent tutees had been the consistent opponents of civil and religious liberty. He could not forget that they had been the O n ' sistent supporters of monopoly, both as regarded the corame r c i ce 1 and poetical interests of the country; and until he le e heard the distinct declaration of the Noble Lord as to on s ; would be his poli c y, h e was not prepared to give him a eieete that would h ave t h e e ff ect of bringing him into office. Ile could not forget that he opposed the Catholic Erel fj c i ciliation Act—(Cri es o f " N o, no. " )—that he opPd7 the Reform B i ll.—(C r i es o f "N o, no. " ) H i s party. ie.-- that he opposed any settlement of the Church e uestion free land -and hi s p ar t y were oppose d to the present settlement cf the Church question its Ireland. He most cordially declared that he would give his vote to the Member for Lynn if he de; clared to him what policy be was prepared to pursue in regal*" to the franchise, or to give an increased representation to Ire land. He desired to know what policy he would adopt re specting an appropriation of the surplus revenue of the Church •in Ireland to secular purposes, and alt© with regard to a measure shortly to be brought before the House respecting waste lands in Ireland—a measure which , he looked upon as one calculated to infuse a new element in the social system of that country. tie consinered that it would create a body of independent yeomen in the country. He con sidered that the Noble Member for Lynn's measure was more calculated to benefit the landed interest than the people. inso A ntpou n ti vri y ,dilet s i rfaon o n uoki i t : he r s ,elua s c s a ; sih h i o d,kaen w r susrlys; rural Population tus d epum t i: o , po r e r c t recommend systemoe f ri dI Ireland efor lan himself tdh ;e to carte t i dha creation popularoen couldof e or a t s in t g lie the pre m se e n as t ur G e ov o e f rn th m e ent o tt i Lord opposite. He entertained doubts of the sympathies for, or the deep i n t erest ta k en i n, the condition of the peasantryeri Ireland, by either the Noble Lord or his party ; and before be could give his support to the Noble Lord's Bil l ' The people must h ave some guarantee upon that point. people of Ireland required that guarantee, and if the Noble Lord w i s h e d to Garry this Bill, or make hie', self popular i n I re l an d , h e must prove that lie was actua ted by no selfish m o ti ves . Th ere was no unan i m i ty i n th e Nob t i f. Lord's party upon t h e su bj ect of supporting or ass i s ting tenant in possession who was desirous of improvi supported a system whi c h c h arac t er i se d t h e Government in London and e ngen d ere d a b sentee i sm, an d if t h e N o ble Ler intended to perpetuate that system, he must make land reset"; sible for the maintenance of its own poor.—(Hear, hea r g Representing, as he did, a large constituency in Irele ed l had felt it to be his d u ty th us f ran kl y to express his views c t upon the mea s ure now bef ore th e House, and upon the sub)! of Ireland generally, rather than to give a silent vote upon this occasion. Ile attributed the want of energy and improved n ment in Ireland to misgov ernment an d c l ass l eg i s lation, e, ' until these abusive systems were a b an d one d , I re l an d would tiel` c continue to be a burden to thi s country. —( H ear , hear. ) Ht must, however, thank th e N o bl e L or d fur t h e generoes spiri he had displayed towards Ireland. He thought it was well cal] culated to improve the feeling in Ireland towards England, an : while he disapproved of hi s measure h e could not f orge t his noe statement, that he w ou ld sta k e hi s head upon the block for the loyalty of the Iri s h if they were treated with justice, nor l truthful statem en t th a t the Irish people would spill th e last drop of their bl oo d i n d e f ence of this country were they prO" perly treated and properly legislated for.—( ]seer, hear. ) Lord BERNARD should give his vote in favour of the Noble Lord's measure, because he considered it was highly calcite lated to meet the present emergency. He did not believe that it was liable to the objections that had been urged against it, nor did he believe that it would enhance the value of any railway w hi c h did not mer i t, or w hi c h was n o t intrinsically va l ua bl e i n it se lf. H e con fid en tly expected that before any mone y were a d vance d t o a ra il wa y under this Bill' its merits arid features would be carefully scrutinised, and he therefore could not understand how the measure could giee e e stability to wild and bad schemes without conferring any b ene fi t wouldupon the good. It had been said that these railways would no go though these diericto krolfuld which PIM reVircu character of these reverend gentlemen. The Noble Lord read a letter from Dr. Herbert, denying the truth of the statement in the petition. Lord STANLEY did not quarrel with the latitude taken by the Noble Marquis in reading the letter from the Dean of Manchester. He was sorry that the obser vatio❑ he made a few evenings ago, should have given harm to that gentleman, but he must say, after what he now heard, that the case was merely in the same posi tion as he had left it. He eid not refer to the points to which that letter alluded, but what he did say, that the charges complained of where non-residence ; that by the terms of the charter, this was enforced, and that the obli gations imposed had riot been observed. What was now stated by the Noble Marquis made his case stronger, for if the fines for non-residence were enforced when the salaries of the warden, canons, and chapters were 70/., 351., and 17/. 10s. respectively, how much more should they be when the salaries were raised to 1,5001., 1,000/, and 8001. ? He still was of opinion, that however freed from legal responsibility, the Dean and Wardens were morally bound to fulfil obligations imposed by the charter and the original founders. All he would say was this, that they would be perfectly warranted in sending two of the canons to watch the proceedings in Parliament, and that if a Committee were to be ap pointed to ascertain what were the obligations and re strictions of the charter, he, for one, should be ready to accede to such a Committee. Lord BROUGHANI thought that the Dean and Chap ter were perfectly competent to look after their own interests, and he should recommend the Dean and Chapter to resign. (Laughter.) Why, they had sworn to resign. They had sworn that, in the event of the obligations not being complied with, that they would resign. It was no reply to say, that they swore that they could either resign or pay the tine. The fine was imposed to enforce the duty, and the payment of the fine no more exonerated them from the obligation to resign than a person would bo who had used a profane oath, and had then gone before the magistrate, and had thrown two shillings instead of one, would be exoner ated from the fault, than if ho had not paid the fine at all. As a lawyer, he should say, that they could not be ex onerated from the offence by the payment of the fine, and he knew what ♦iew the Court of Queen's Bench would take of it. lie, therefore, conceived that the Dean and Chapter had no other course than to resign. He did not say that this was an immoral thing, but it was a wrong thing and ought to be remedied. Lord CAMPBELL said that this was no party ques tion—(Hear, hear)—but simply a question of law, and whether the terms of the donor's will had been carried out or not. The court of equity had decided that if a man entered into a contract and failed to perform any portion of his contract, the payment of the penalty would in no way exonerate him from the specific per formance of the contract, and the Lord Chancellor would direct the specific performance of that contract. SUGAR DUTIES DISTILLERY BILL. The Esrl of CLARENDON moved the second read ing of this Bill, and that it be referred to a Select Committee. Lord STANLEY did not apprehend that there would be any opposition to the Bill, but he believed, from the calculation that had been made, that it would prove use less. lie would not then enter upon a discussion of the subject, but was in favour of its being referred to a Committee. The Bill wvs then read a second time. The I louse then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 12. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. SECOND READINGS. The following Bills wero read a scond time:—Ashton Gas; Birkenhead Improvement (Gas Works) and pur chase of Birkenhead and Claughton Gas Works; Ips wich Dock; Ipswich Gas; London and South-Western Railway (Widening, &c.); Manchester and Southport Railway and Branches; Midland Railway (Masbrough and Normanton Stations Enlargement); Protestant Dis senters and General Life and Fire Insurance Company; and Southampton and Dorchester Railway (Blandford Branch) Bills. The Marquis of CHANDOS presented petitions against the Bristol and Exeter and other railways. Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition against the Newport and Hereford Railwa-