The Sun. — London, England, 1840-03-03 00:00:00

:,;~,+, • 4 . AI a EVENING EDITION. rest before, and, of course, he could have made no in , 1 spiry respeeting it. 1 Captain PEC HELL wi s h e d t o ma k e some observa tions in allusi o n t o th e di scuss i ons on t h e con ( dition of our Navy which had taken place en a Hgformer occasion. believed Quit our shipe ooula be always sent. to sea with their hull enneplernent, whether we were at wer or in vice, so that the ships might 1 always be ready for a n y emergency w hi c h m i g h t ar i se. The vessels, for instance, stationed on the coast of ; Africa to capture vessels engaged in the slave ; trade without being obliged to enter ports immediately I with their prizes. In saying this, he did not agree with I the Hon. Member for Bristol in thinking that our i vessels if ft'-'nt out in their present state would be a dis igrace to the British service if they were to coma to an engagement with the fleets cif Russia or of France He believed, on the tontrary, that our vessels. in such a case, would triumph even under disadvantages as they had hitherto done. He thought, however, that they shod be put on their full comple ment, and he believed that two thousand additional men would suffice for that purpose.--(Hear, hear.) Now t l 'ets very 2,000 men would complete the ships that, fiere deficient to their full war complement. He c'eatensied that it was especially necessary that the . 1 ships on the coast of Africa should have that com plement, became in their present state they were obliged to accompany their prizes into port. Ho was glad to find that on this occasion no officer in i that House. belonging to the service to which he had : huneolf the honour to belong, entertained any doubt of i the, eourage and th e super i or i ty o f B r i t i s h seam en. It .4etd been said that the efficiency of the officers would be inimpaired .oy their want of confidence in the Government. But he could assert that no feeling on the subject of 1 P e atr Gittge, no party or political failure, would in -1 uuerece the officers of the British navy in the discharge °f their duty. The Gallant Baronet below him (SirT. froubridg e ) sa id t h a t it was a most absurd prop osit i on ( 'to tisaep ships, in time of peace, up to th e i r fu ll w complement. But he (Capt. Pechell) could not a llow the r terra absurd to be applied to his proposition, that the complement of men necessary for the efficient perform ance of the duties upon which they were employed should be kept up in time of peace. He would entreat the Go vernment, and especially the Admiralty, to revise the pre sent system of manning the ships. A great number of the =oust efficient men were kept from returning to the service because their pensions would be forfeited. But eo temptation ought to be allowed to seduce from the navy mesa who bad been educated in those ships that were em ployed in the instruction of naval gunnery. He wished she Government would consider the expediency of in ,:2l-ea.siag the establishment of boys. He knew that on every station there were hundreds of boys anxiously de eirces of enlisting in the service—boys either under or over seventeen years of age. They would, after having been to sea some two or three years, be really efficient seraateu. And the number could be with the greatest fecifif y increased from 3,000 to 3,000 or 4,000.—( Hear.) list would say thus much, in regard to our naval force, that Aso urns not one of those who wished to have what were sailed experimental squadrons in the Downs or elsewhere, !To amuse the country. He considered that our real de fence must be in the vessels at Lisbon ; and as to the Russian fleet, he believed it was now quite hard and fast bound, and need not excite any apprehension. Mr. PL CMPT R E said that though he spoke as:an un professional man, he confessed that from all he heard and saw, the present state of the eavy of this country was any thing but satisfactory. Undoubtedly the terms efficient and inefficient were relative and comparative ; and consi der:el', how dependent this country was upon her navy for defence, and the strength of other navies, he feared that :,ores was anything but satisfactory. The Ministers said that there was generally a peaceable disposition towards this country. He was hap i ,y to find that was the case; brat who (meld venture to guarantee peace? And he doubted whether in the present aspect of affairs in Europe a rupture was the most impossible thing that could occur. England had hut twenty-two ships of the line; /Jut in reality he feared it was only seventeen effective, awl only nine frigates, those, too, of an inferior size. Russia had two fleets of 21, and 16 ships of the line ' , canoe had as many ships of the line in actual commission HS we had, and 17 frigates, with 23 large war steamers, whereas Engl:nd had only 16. France too had on the stocks 26 ships of the line, besides frigates. France had 13 large steamers, and England had only seven, of a smaller size, on the stocks. This was to him a must un 'Jr:satisfactory state of things, because when he looked to 'rho sisores of this country, he saw them in an entirely de leeceeeei stare. This must be any thing but satisfactory to the merchants of the country and the community at 3arge,. There was a most excellent letter upon this sub 'et, written by a Flag Officer to the Duke of Wellington, which had obtained for him no small degree of odium. In that letter the writer said that the navy and the commerce of the country was at present all its trust, and if that was not kept up the worst results might be expected. Ha knew very well that without the Divine blessing the bravery and efficiency of our navy or army, or the wisdom of our councils, would he of no avail ; but it was necessary, whilst tru&ing in Providence, to make use of the proper means; and he considered by keeping the navy in an al. eient state, whet, compared with the navies of other na tions, they would be committing the grossest act of folly, and betraying the trust committed to their charge. He thought the present state of the navy was far from whet it ought to be. ito should give his vote in favour of the in_ ertsa•cd estimate ; and i , ed a still larger increase been pro posed he should have been ready to give his vote in favour of it. Ln-d J. RUSSELL wss surprised at the allegation of the Hon. Gentleman, that the navy was at present in a weal: and inefficient state.—( Cheers.) As a peace esta blishment, sad as a peace establishment only, ought it to be spoken of —( Hear, hear.) He IC AS prepared to con r,ufl that it was most etEcient, A considerable sum had s•lie,l of Parliament for the pnrpoPe of maintaining it lie a state of efficiency—a surn which the Hon. Member ire Kilkenny thought too large. —( Hear, hear, from Mr. House.) This sum was applied with great judg ment and skill to purinses for which it was voted. This was a time t peace—( Hear)—therefOre they could have no test as to the efficiency of our navy comp3r,d with that ot foreign powers, as in time of war. if ttiis country were at war, and found that the navy, when it came into collision with the navies of foreign powers, was defeated, then there might be soma reason for contend. in; taw it was in an inefficient state ; but as long as a state p=ace continued there could be no opportunity of eom parin the efficiency of our navy with that of foreign power;, and he felt fully assured that if ever the calamity of war should happen to as, the navy of this country could not be foiled iaferior to what it had been at other periods of oar 'aintory.—(Cheers.) With respect to what the Hon. Gentleman bad said relating to what he called the unprotected state of our coasts, he begged the Committee 19 remember to what the Hon. Gentleman's plan would lead if it were fully carried out.—( Cheers.) France had a large fleet in the Mediterranean, and it was thought not advisable that our fleet should be less than was necessary for the protection of our possession s in that sea. Then, again, Russia maintained a large fleet in the Baltic amount. ing sometimes, he believed, to as many as 20 sail of the line. Whets they sent out all the three divisions at once they might amount to as many as seven or eight and twenty sail of the line, hut it could not be said that they were to ; base a fleet in every part of the world equal to that of the other nations, and at the same time a fleet on their own shores equal to any number of ships Russia might send out in the course of the summer ; such a course of po- I key would be ruinous to the country.—( Hear, hear, hear.) They were not now upon a war establishment, and were n t at war with France or Russia, or any one of the Great Powers of the world ; still less did they require a war eats bllshrnent to enable them to contend well altogether. Their navy was merely on the footing of an amicable tan- derstanding for the purpose of bringing things to : a peaceful termination. He was anxious to key the effi ! dent's , of the nay), but he confessed it appeared to him to be against the policy of this country to undertake anything so extren ely injurious as the Hon. Gentleman P uggcs ted ; on the contrary, he thought it would be said by many that it would be better to have war at once than io be constantly with such an armament, and in such a state of suspicion against other Powers. There had been much discussion with respect to the manner in which their ships were manned, and it was contended that they ought to bare a larger complement of men— in fart. a war complement. That was entirely a naval question, and he coald not pretend to give an opinion fur. ther than what he had collected from those who were best able to form an opinion. The question practically under d.scurvim was, whether they would keep up the same num. her of ships, and give them all a larger complement of rule, because in that case the expense would be enormously increased—or whether they should not have —say twenty line-of -battle ships with the present complement, or seven teen wit ' s a l arger complement.—( Hear, hear.)' N ow , from ail h e h ad heard he believed the present complement' ' was fully su ffi c i ent for the duties these ships and men had to perform. In time of war they necessarily requiredg a fuller complement, under the expectation of action with the enemy i- bat he believed the complementlnta at present was nearly as large as they had when th gin the great war in 1793.---( Hear, hear.) There were e. some ships in which a c h ange h ad taken place i n the form and size —such, for insta nce , as t h e large frigate the pique, in which a change had take n pl ace i n the masts, rigging,' Sac., which rendered a ch ange necessary, and that I they should be placed upon a different rating to that which was formerly established.--( Hear, hear.) The necessary alterations had been made, and he believed they had been made with judgment, and a due adaptation to the condition of our ships. A question had been put a few evenings ago by a Right Hon. Baronet, with regard to the present number of men, in proportion to the number of our vessels. It was true that the number of men was not proportionate to the number of ships now in commis sion, but they had gone on the supposition that some of those ships on coming home might be paid off, and there might thus be a reduction of their number. If, however, it 6benld be necessary to keep up the full number of ships, they might find themselves obliged to resort again to Par. liateent, bat the present estimates had been framed with a view to the actual situation of the country. He had nothing further to suggest on these topics, but he hoped 1 they would nolonger hear that language, which he believed was entirely unfounded, with respect to the present in. efficiency of our navy. If Hon. Members opposite thought it proper try keep a much larger naval establishment than lthey now had, h e s h ou ld say that was a question of policy on which he did not agree with them, and ho thought that as far as regarded our officers and our seamen, there was no falling off in that skill and efficiency which they had *own upon all occasions.—( Hear, hear.) Sir G. CLERK was glad to hear the explanation which the Noble Lord had given of what t r im l f y at a e P s, pawed to be a very strange circumstance in th c e er E ta s i k hp(rvxopeevrer,caotrntphleempreeinteont men viz., that ships had not their assigned to them. Looking, 'fit mcp t egotiations in the East, he did not think tha s t ta h te `'ffitairst-wotild be a proper moment to make a reductiont in e 4U.' t kailier of our vessels, and particularly in the Medi 4' giii N ti 'He had understood that several of our - iii. ; 040.27 ships 411.14,.....0.• Pinv _ • S abroad were called home and paid off, while there was no intention of replacing them with ships of the same size. He trusted that if any unfortunate circumstance should arise which would render it necessary for us to increase the number of our ships—he trusted that Parliament would have no difficulty is granting the necessary supplies for that purpose. It was not his wish that in time of peace our vessels should be manned to the full war complement ; but he thought th a t t h e Ad m i ra l ty s h ou ld k eep our navy in the state which the circumstances of the country required. He could not agree in the eulogy which the Noble Lord had passed upon the naval force. There was a large force in this Mediterranean, but it ought to be recollected that we had possessions in other parts of tho world, and the force in the West Indies and upon the coast of North Ame rica was by no means adequate to our possessions there. If there had been a reserve force at home, there need not have been a delay until the middle of February before any ships could be sent out to China. He thought it would be desirahle to return to the old practice of having a di!. potable force at home, and keeping the men employed in guard ships, cruising in the Channel, whence they could be recalled in twenty-four hours by an order from the Ad miralty. He wished to know what proportion of the 9 ,000 boys, who appeared in the estimate under a separate head, were taken as portions of the ships' complements. Captain PERCIVAL, who was for the most part in audible, said there were two things necessary to reconcile officers and men to the service. There ought to be imme diately an extensive promotion, and the pay of officer s an d in creased. Mr. should be very largely Mr. C. WOOD having spoken three times already in this Committee, was reluctant to trespass upon it again. But he had heard observations this evening which he could not allow to pass without a reply. It was not owing to any deficiency in the Admiralty that ships were not dis patcher! to China sooner, and as to what had been said of the unprotected state of our own shores, he could say that they were better better protected in the course of last summer than they were for years past. There were eight line of battle ships witqin call of the Admiralty, and there would have been no difficulty at anytime in the past year in filling their war complement in 24 hours, The number wanted was only 1,500, an d t h ere were 1,700 in the ordinary, exclusive of the warrant officers, The pamphlet which had been alluded to in the course of the discussion, would deceive any one who relied oa it. The comparative statement of the English and French naval force was, in every respect, inaccurate ; in steamers of the largest class there was an error of eight vessels, whereas any one could have found the correct statement in the Blue List that was published every quarter. The pamphlet stated that there was an increase in the French line-of-of-battle ships within the last year, the fact being, that in that year they were reduced from forty-nine to forty-six. Our force of steam-vessels was superior, in stead of inferior, to that maintained by France. Of vessels under three hundred horse power, we had thirty, and the French but twenty-six. But then, of steamers of the largest size, we had fourteen, and the French but three. He would only say of this pamphlet, that it was incorrect, and that it was wrong to put forward in print statements calculated to mislead the public, and even Members of that House. Upon a subject upon which the information was so obviously and easily obtain ed, he regretted that language was used in the course of this discussion that was calculated to give offence to Sovereign powers for the sake of taunting the Admiralty. It was the duty of the Admiralty to be acquainted with the state of foreign navies, and they were, in fact, pos sessed of ample information upon that subject. As to all that had been said of the difficulty of manning the navy, he could only reply that the difficulty seemed to be less at present than it had been in former years. Ten years ago it took an average of 114 days each to fit out five small vessels of 28 guns. In 1836 three line-of-battle ships went out from Sheerness and three from Plymouth, in three months, requiring from between 4,000 and 5,000 men. In 1837 a 10-gun sloop took 107 days to get her complement of men, whereas the las: two sloops of that kind that were commissioned had their complements, the one in 49 days, and the other in 43, and in all the different classes of ships the facillity of obtaining men was in favour of the present period. He hoped that the Committee respecting the organization of the Coast-guard would be re-appointed, as he believed that force could be made available upon an emergency. There was a class of men in whom there was a large reserve for the Queen's service ; every year about two hundred men were discharged from the navy, who were still able men, but had served their full time. These were dispersed throegh the merchant service, in which they would render great good to the Royal service by proclaiming among the merchant ser vice the advantages of the Royal Service.—( Hear. ) By an Act of Parliament, introduced by his Hon. Friend, a provision was made that the moment- a war broke out, a proclamation should be issued that men might come back into the service, and enjoy their pensions with their pay; therefore, to whatever extent there were able men enjoy ing their pensions, they might be said to be immediatel:: available to the service of the country. It certainly was most desirable to increase the naval force as much as pos sible, and he was quite convinced that the greater the ex tent to which they were increased, the more advantageous it would be, as the system of impressment adopted in France did not at all do in this country.—( Hear.) With respect to what the Hon. and Gallant Member for Surrey had said relative to the officers, he admitted freely that there were many officers who were not fit to go to sea again. The fault of this evil was not with the Admiralty, but with the peace. The rules which had been laid down with respect to officers, caused a consider able reduction. He felt, as much as any man, the situation of the officers who were anxious for employment and could not obtain it. That was attributable to the country having enjoyed FO long a peace. He, for one, wished that peace might be protracted to a very long time. The House and every one must be aware that nothing short of a bloody war could give these officers what they asked—promotion or employ ment. He had no doubt that these officers %sere mast worthy men, and entitled to great consideration, still it must be recollected that the happy circumstances in which the country was placed, rendered it impossible that their wishes could be complied with. He trusted that he had satisfied the House that the navy of this country was not in the condition that had been represented ; and in the firm conviction that he had done so, he would sit down. Sir T. COCHRANE observed that the Hon. Member for Halifax had stated that there was a large squadron at home. Now what, he would ask, was the reason of that? Why, because they had not got men to take them out to sea. He concurred with what the Noble Lord had stated, that it was impossible for any country to keep up a navy to encounter all other countries. It would be preposterous. But there was a great difference between that and not having a force that was able to perform all those great duties which were essential to this country in the times of peace. Could the Government of this country, he would ask, pay off a single ship, with reference to France or America, a state bordering upon our own ? He did not hesitate to say that they could not. There ought to be kept up a sufficient reserve force at home, because the very fact of the knowledge of such a force being retained would have the effect of keeping the foreign relations of this country in a tranquil state. It was true that there might be some expense in keeping up such a force, but he thought that the benefit to be derived from such a force would be more than equivalent for such an expense. He thought there ought to be a reserve squadron at home, and he could not denominate a few guard ships as such squadron. Mr. A. CEI APM A N was bound to say that, as far as the executive management of the navy went, he never saw any better conducted than under the administration of the Hon. and Gallant Officer opposite.—( Hear, bear.) He agreed with all that had fallen from the Hon. Member for Halifax, with the exception of allowing young officers to go back into the world with their prospects blighted. Admiral ADAMS said it was most gratifying to him and to those with whom be was connected, to hear the opinion of the Hon. Member opposite in favour of the course the Government bad pursued, especially when they knew the great knowledge that lion. Member possessed of maritime affairs. With respect to the statement that had been made by some lion Member as to the want of men, he recollected when the eight line-of-battle ships were commissioned, which had been adverted to, there were a great many merchant vessels obliged to lie in the Thames for want of men. The commercial marine of the country had considerably increased, the building yards in every part of the country had been moat actively engaged, and it was not, therefore, to be wondered at that men were scarce in consequence of the great demand for them. He ( Admiral Adams) was not there to say that the ships which were manned in 1835 were as well manned as those in the Mediterranean, or those that were sent out last summer, but still he considered them sufficiently manned for the purposes for which they were sent out. The Honourable Member for Stamford had spoken about employing guard ships, but what was the state of the guard ships? Why, it was very well known that when it was necessary to send out vessels to Lisbon in 1829 to bring back the troops, that they were ready for sea in a very short time. How was that done ? Not by having them forcibly manned, but by the discipline of the men who were on board. That those vessels were not half manned, and bad no arms on board. If they had they could not have brought the troops. These ships, however, with a vary few alterations, and in a very short period, might have been made fit for service. The Hon. Member for Stamford had also spoken of the complements of men and boys ; with respect to the former, the complement had been determined by a rule that had been adopted for years, and as to the boys, every thing had been done to make them as efficient as possible. The Hon. Member for Brighton had talked about the men voted by Parliament not being employed. Now he ( Ad miral A dam) with respect to that must say, that it was un dernstood when th at vote was taken, no more o f t h e 8,000 men were to be employed than required. The Hon. Member bad a l so said that the Mediterranean was protected but th a t M ex i co suo' was much were not protect e d. N o w, what was the case? Why, th ere as was more than a sufficient force in that country—the re an overwheming force, as compared with Fra nce . foornthe statements of the . Hon. Member on that subject. China, the Hon. Member hapds'b the coast of Mexico there were, in all, thirty-three tali a fo rt rce in e. ih n Then with respect to s th en er n e t o e ugh m t g t a o pe ha re ve te be t e a n keap this pleased affairsl countryea s t el little consequence, of t onlsnseready n t c h te a l:f t o i e tten 't d lndia since f r o h r er t e is h e a G d a b l e ls e n n t , it o ffiwocuerldwhhaoveh a b d e e w n r to be at the death of the late lamented Sir F. Maitland, s the Ist of June being time enough for those talked of Singapore. When they heard of the illness of out to Maitland, it became necessary to supply his place, Sir F. he should not be able to proceed to China. The Chairmanlest of the Directors of the East India Company informed him (Admiral Adam) that they had a ship g o i ng the Cape of Good Hope, and they counted she would h e at the Cape of Good Hope in thirty days. The des patches were sent home on the 18th January to meet the ship at Falmouth. The ship was still at Plymouth, and was not able to get from Plymouth to Falmouth till ten days afterwards, and she actually sailed from this country two days after it was expected she would have arrived at the Cape of Good Hope.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Was that the fault of the Amiralty, and were they to send out a ship to Singapore to wait there some time, consum ing stores and provisions ? After the speech of his Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies ; after the rnE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MARCH 3, 1840. admirable speech of the Hon. Member for Halifax, and after the speech which had been made by his Honourable Friend the Member for Whitby, he thought he need not trouble the Housa at any great length. But there was a subject which he would not allow, the first opportunity be had of speaking, to pass by without advert ing to, and that was the assertion of the Noble Lord the Member for Staffordshire (Lord Ingestrie), viz., that the promotion of the navy was conducted in a profligate man lier. He would tell the Noble Lord that there was nothing whatever to support him in such a declaration. He was not then speaking of Admiral Fleming's appointment. That was an appointment which did not belong solely to the Admiralty. His Noble Friend at the head of the Government had in another plac-, as he naturally would do, taken upon himself the responsibility of that appoint ment ; but he ( Admiral Adam) would say that no officer in the Queen's service had more ardently desired to be employed than his Hon. and Gallant Friend Admiral Fleming, and perhaps no man on the Admiralty's list bad been more usefully employed—( Hear, hear)—and though it had not been his good fortune to meet the enemies of his country in the way others had done, yet he only wanted the opportunity to distinguish himself, and he be lieved that no man was more capable of doing so. He (Admiral Adam) defied the Noble Lord to show any in stance of profligate promotion. If the Noble Lord would bring forward any case whatever which he considered to be profligate, he would with pleasure and satisfaction meet the first opportunity he had of doing so. He would tell. the Noble Lord in the strongest language he was capable of uttering that there had been no profligate promotion in the navy by the present Admiralty. The Hon. and Gal lant Admiral here read a list of the promotion of mates in the last year, and stated that no man, whether young or old, had been promoted who had not deserved it. It had been said there ought to be a promotion in order to clear the Mates' List, and the Hon. Member for Whitby had said that that was the only part of their naval administration that he did not approve of. He thought it was not very reasonable to talk of promotion when it was considered what had taken place. On Ist January, 1838, there were 631 mates, and out of those there were promoted in that year 102. That was the general promotion that took place on the Queen's accession to the Throne. A promo tion took place early in the preceding year, when almost as large a number were promoted. But everbody knew that ever since Lord Melville made that most useful regu lation that only one officer should be promoted for every three vacancies, it had been rigidly adhered to, excepting the cases of particular services, where special promotions were made. So that although in 1839 there were but 37 promotions, yet it should be considered that there had been in the beginning of 1837, and in the middle of 1838, considerable promotions. Therefore it could not be said that there bad not been a considerable degree of promotion in the time that his Noble Friend at the bead of the Admiralty bad executed his office.--( Hear, hear.) He thanked the House for the attention with which they had listened to him, and he would sit down, declaring that the oftener the Noble Lord brought forward charges against the Admiralty of making improper promotions, the more ready he would be of availing himself of the opportunity of contradicting them.--( Cheers.) Lord ING ESTRIE wished to make a few observations. In the first place, he begged to state that he had not made use of the expression which had been attributed to him by the Hon. and Gallant Admiral. Admiral ADAM—Twice over. Lord INGESTRIE—I beg your pardon. I said the patronage of the Admiralty had been made use of in a way in no degree creditable to the Admiralty. Admiral ADAM—Twice over. Lord INGESTRIE—I think the Hon and Gallant Admiral, on the other side of the House, is not over cour teous in the way he interrupts me.—( Hear, hear.) On a former occasion he had stated he would not men- Lion names, neither would he in the present case.— ( Hear, hear.) Several of the cases to which he alluded were mentioned by his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke ; but he had alluded more particularly to the appointment to Greenwich Hospital, and with respect to that appointment he was noways disposed to retract any expression he made use of on that occasion. He did not intend to say anything that was personal ; his accusations were against the Admiralty, or, if the Gallant Admiral liked it better, against their appointments. It might be true, and he believed it was true. that Admiral Fleming had served to the utmost of his ability, and that he had had a great quantity of employment. Still that had been a matter of favour, while other officers had been otcrlocked. How often had he hoisted his flag? Why, he had hoisted his flag three times since the peace ! He was appointed to the command at Portsmouth last year, and now the vacancy having occurred, he was appointed to Greenwich Hospital, while those who had bled for their country had been over lm ked. Greenwich Hospital lied been always reserved as a retirement for some officer who had distinguished him self in action against enemies, and also as a relief in cases where a Gallant Officer might be straitened in his circum stances. A great deal had been said with respect to the manning of ships, and he thought the Board of Admiralty had, as far as he could understand, adopted a proper course in that respect ; and, as he understood the Hon. and Gallant Member for Sandwich (Sir T. Troubridge), there had been a great increase in every ship in the ser vice. With respect to what the Hon. Member for Halifax had said about ships in former times taking a long time to fit out, he would obeerve that his Hon. Friend forgot that ships sometimes waited in Portsmouth Harbour for ten days, for a spanker boom, or some insignificant article. All those s hip s t o w hi c h th e H on . Member alluded would have gone to sea in probably half the time, if they had been required. He should be glad to add some information upon the subject of seamen educated in the Exmouth. He thought it was prejudicial to our national interests that we should educate men who might go and cause that knowledge which they had received under our auspices to bear against us.—( Hear, hear.) Then again with respect to our naval architecture ; there might be some degree of presumption in his putting him self so forward, but he felt it his duty to do so. Last year he ventured to doubt whether the Gorgon was so good a ship as she was represented to be. lie was then answered by the Gallant Admiral that she was the best ship that ever swam. Now, he would ask, whether it was ever intended that she should carry guns upon her deck. He, for one, always thought that if a ship were laid down for a parti cular purpose, and did not answer that purpose, he thought it was a failure. By the bombastic circular that was sent round it was stated that she was to carry a regiment of soldiers with all th , .‘ir baggage. He would ask whether she was not obliged to have her lower ports caulked up, and whether the engineA intended for her had not been removed. He trusted that he was wrong, but he had no reason to doubt the gources from which he received his information. If the Gorgon was so good build, why was it that the . . Cyclops,which was laid down immediately after had a length 12 or 14 feet greater ? From the returns tahich had been laid on the table of the House last Session, he contended that the Inconstant was a better ship than the Pique. Then why, he would ask, should we have all Piques and no In constants? He wanted to see fair play, and no partisan ship whatever upon such an important subject. Naval ar chitecture was a dry subject of discussion in that House ; but it was a most important subject to the country, and he should like to see this country take an example from France upon that subject. He should like to see a Board of Science attached to the Admiralty, who would greatl, assist that Board in its duty of shipbuilding. Sitting there as a Member of Parliament, be had a perfect right to complain of any appointment which he might think wrong, and he could assure the Gallant Admiral that he would not be deterred from doing his duty by either his threats or his anger. admiral ADAM had not the slightest intention of offending the Noble Lord. If he was warm it was his nature, and (with great warmth) the Noble Lord will ever find me so when my friends are vilified.— (Laughter.) He had never fur a moment attempted to stop the Noble Lord from performing his duties, nor would he ever do so. The Noble Lord asked whether the Gorgon was in tended to carry guns. Most certainly not when she i was used as a steamer—when she was used as a battery, and having ports there for ventilation, of course she was 1 supplied with guns. The next question was, being anxious to try her in the heaviest seas, she was sent out to the north coast of Spain, to be under the command of that distinguished officer Lord John Hay, and his Gallant Friend near him, in whose department that was, took the opportunity of filling her with stores and provisions for the ships on that station. She was, therefore, deeper than ever she was intended to be, and cons - quently her ports were caulked up. The surveyor reported that she was not so fast a sailer as lie expected, but she was very far from being a failure. So far from lighter engines she, in fact, had heavier. If siie was laid down for engines of 220 horse power, she had, in fact, got engines of 300 horse power. The Cyclops being about to be laid down, the eminent engineers who made her engin-s, the Messrs. Seward, reported that she would carry engines of the same size as the Gorgon if she had greater length hi, twelve feet. That was the reason of the change in the length. Lcrd INGESTRIE explained. Sir THOMAS TRONN BRIDGE had much pleasure in answering another question put by the Noble Lord. He could assure him that every encouragement was given the boys educated in the Exmouth. They were engaged in the service for five years—they had extra pay, and every inducement was held out to them for renewing their engagement for another five years. Sir JAMES DUKE believed that the present state of the navy was much more efficient than at any time dur ing the late war. Captain BOLDERO said the physician to Greenwich Hospital had, on the 10th July last, retired from ill health. He wished to know if any successor had been appointed, and if not, on what grounds the situation had been kept vacant. There were 2,700 invalid seamen in the Hos pital, 1,000 boys, 30 or 60 families of officers and nurses, making altogether about 4,000 souls, and they were prin cipally of a class who required daily medical attendance. He also wished to know how many votes they meant to take to-night.—( A laugh.) The next vote was the pay of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman opposite, and of course he should not object to that.—( Hear, and a laugh.) After the vote and the pay of the men had been agreed to he trusted they would adjourn until they re ceived the Report of the Naval and Military Corn. mission.—( Hear, hear.) He understeod that Report could be prepared after two or three times' meetir.g of the Committee, and as it would contain several valuable sugges _ ansposed. The tions, they ought to wait un til it had been laid on the table. Admiral ADAM said the p re p aration of the Report than wou the ldrequHiroen a. andgreat deal Gal la Gallant morn,Ge Gentleman and upconsideration Report would not recommend the reduction of the Esti_ states in any way, and therefore he could not see th e ne cessity of waiting for it. With respect to the appointment of a physician, the Gallant Officer was aware that that ap pointment had been for many years done away with in the army, and if the Report should embody a recommendation to do away with the same appointment in the navy, it would be very awkward and inconvenient to make such an appointment just on the eve of the Report being laid on the table.— (Hear, hear.) sup plied ycoe: Mr. HUME wished to know what manu f actures were now carried on i n the naval department ? Mr. MORE ntract ° F c e E p t R b R i s A c u L i t L , fi said , b id ever e e r r , y t c h h i oatmeal. The vote was th en agreed to. o n c g ol w at a e and The • On the vote that 123,0961. be granted for defraying the salaries, and other expenses of the Admiralty being read, Mr. HUME inquired if that included the whole of the expenses of the Admiralty ? Mr. M. O'FERRALL replied in the affirmative. Sir GEORGE CLERK, said there appeared to be a sum of 5001. set down for postages. Did that include the charges of officers at the out-ports and dock-yards, and the heavy postages of pursers"accounts, &c. ? Mr. M, O'FER RA LL said it was intended to cover the whole expenses in that vote. Some of the heavy packages and parcels which were not required to be forwarded forth with would be sent round by ships to London. Mr. GOUL BURN apprehended that that was con trary to law._( Hear, and a laugh.) Mr. M. O' FE RRAL L merely referred to books and matters of that sort. Sir G. CLERK wished to know whether any instruc• tions bad been sent to the ports, directing the clerks to write upon half sheets of paper to save expense? Mr. O'FERRAL L said when the new system was intro duced, every effort was made to reduce the weight, but after the experiment bad been tried a few days the system was altered. He would say, however, that the system of expending a large quantity of paper in envelopes, &c., where there were only a few lines to be written, had been done away with, and every proper measure adopted to econo mize in that department. • Mr. HUME was extremely glad to bear the statement of the Hon. Gentleman. If public departments only used the same economy as private individuals in the management of their affairs—using merely as much paper as was wanted for the occasion —( A laugh)—the saving would be very great. He would observe that the Committee sitting up stairs had recommended a new sys tem of printing the public papers, by which a saving of 30 per cent. would be effected. The vote was then agreed to. On the vote of 2,5001., expenses of registering mer chant seamen, being read, Mr. A. CHAPMAN (who was almost inaudible) said that for the last fourteen or fifteen years the returns showed there were about 26,000 merchant ships, comprising 2,700,000 tons, and 170,000 seamen. He found, by the last returns, the number was increased 5,000, whereas he understood that in reality the variation of the last from former years was very small. Mr. HUME said he quite approved of what had fallen from the Hon. Member, for the Act was provided to pre vent impressment ; but he was informed it was a complete failure, and therefore wished to know why it was con tinued. He believed we derived this advantage from it, that we knew the number of apprentices in the navy. Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that the object of establishing the Act on which the vote was moved for, was to get rid of impressment. Whether these returns were correct or not, he was not able to give an opinion. Mr. HUME suggested, as a means of saving this vote, that they should not give ships their clearance till they had made an entry of the number of seamen ; which might be done by a clerk of the Custom-house. He should ob ject to the vote without further information. Lord PALMERSTON said that if it was thought ex pedient to repeal the Act, it had better be repealed. Mr. HUME said he thought his proposition most im. portant, because if they refused the vote they would bring Government to repeal the Act, but if they granted it, they should hear no more of the repeal. Admiral ADAMS said that great benefit had accrued to the marines of the country by merchant ships being obliged to take apprentices. He hoped the Hon. Gentle man would not refuse the grant. Mr. A. CHAPMAN.— No one was more anxious than himself to pass the Apprentice Bill. He objected to the im perfect mode in which the register was taken ; as an instance he would mention that when a mutiny occurred on board the Camden, and 21 men were sent to Exeter gaol, and the Captain wrote to the Officer to ascertain the former character of the men, no such names were found upon the roll. This showed how imperfectly the registry was con ducted. He would therefore state that next Session he should move for the repeal of the Act. Mr. M. O'FERRALL observed the men might have been registered in wrong names. Mr. A. WHITE said he thought, as the office did not answer its purpose, the vote would be only a waste of public money. An HON. MEMBER observed that the Government ought to promise to take the subject into consideration. Mr. HUME wished to be understood, that if by any means impressment could be avoided, lie was not aware of the limits to which he would not go for such a purpose, but as this Act was an entire failure he thought they ought not to de ceive themselves by thinking it was sufficient for this pur pose. Impressment would be required as much with the Act as without it, and to one point he wished especially to call the attention of the House, namely, that some means must be devised by which impressment would be prevented, for he would tell them that, in the state of the country, impress ment could not be carried on as before, and if money were required to man the navy, money must be had, for they must do as others did —pay their men. He therefore hoped the Government would, before the Session was over, state their views upon the subject, and bring in some measure that would be more efficient than the present to get rid of impressment. Admiral ADAM said, until his friend had objected to the vote this evening, the Admiralty never heard a word against the Act. - After a desultory conversation the vote was agreed to. On the vote for 27,4331. for the Scientific Departtnei t being read, Lord E LIOT said he wished to call the attention of the Committee to the subject of Mr. Snow Harris's con \doctor for li g ht n i ng , w h ic h h a d b een b e f ore a C omm i ttee last Session, but whose Report was not yet printed. He was therefore unacquainted with its contents, but he on derstood that they recomm en d e d th e a d o pti on o f t h e in -1 vention. This invention afforded an almost complete safe ' guard against lightning. But the point to which he wished to call the attention of the Committee was, from certain information he had received, that ships bad been ordered to fit out with Mr. Harris's conductors, but without communica tion with the inventor, which he thought was not a proper couree to proceed in, and, if his information was correct. that soma injustice was done to the inventor and the service, because he was told they were not fitted out on the plan last approved of by him. He hoped that on a matter so essential to the interests of our navy no personal jealousy would be allowed to operate. Admiral A DAM assured the Noble Lord there was no personal, jealousy at the Board of Admiralty on the sub ject. Perhaps part of the Noble Lord's statement might be correct. Captain James Ross, who was employed in the Arctic Expedition, bad asked to have his ship fitted out with his conductors —( Hear.) He was in constant communication with Mr. Harris ; he (Admiral Adam) could not say Mr. Harris was told it was to be done, hut as one of the persons who sat on that Committee, had applied for it. He understood it was done with his privity, and, according to the wish of Capt. Ross, the Foudroyant was fitted out with the invention, the order for which was given in the precise terms recommended by the Committee. lie would take care Mr. Harris should be communicated with. Lord ELIOT said he thought it rather too much to expect that a professional man should have gone to Chat ham to superintend the arrangements, without authority trorn the Admiralty. Mr. M. O'FEIiR ALL asked whether the question was to pay a salary to this gentleman? Lord ELIOT thought that a man who had spent much time in perfecting such an invention as this deserved the reward appointed to be given for such services. But, that was not the object he had in view in mentioning the subject. Sir. WOOD thought it would be better to postpone this discussion till the Report of the Committee was printed, _ _ _ Lord ELIOT said he had been informed the Report would not be printed until the Navy Estimates had been voted. Mr. HUME asked to whom the 1,000/. vote last year for rewards had been given? Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said he was not preparedto give information, but he would take an early opportunity of doing so. Mr. HUME said there was one vote which had been passed, to which he wished to call the attention of the Committee. It was that of 33,0001. for surveys. He wished to know whether any reports were made by that department, and what surveys were made? He thought there ought to be an account laid before Parliament every year, and if a report were made he should move that a copy of it be laid before the House. Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that a report was laid upon the table of the Admiralty every Monday morning. Mr. HUME said, what be wished was an account once a year for the information of the public, that they might know how the money was employed. He wished to be in formed what surveys were made, and where they were sur- veying. Capt. PE CHE LL believed that after any survey had been made the charts were always advertised as the fruits of that survey. With respect to the grant of 1,0001. for scientific rewards, he apprehended that was bestowed for scientific discoveries which were deemed of importance and benefit to the naval service. The Noble Lord opposite had alluded to naval architecture, and great credit was due to the Noble Lord for the interest he took in this subject, and he thought that there ought to be rewards for improve ments in na va l arc hi tec ture. Mr. White and others had devoted considerable attention to this subject, and had ex hibited plans of very superior vessels. Indeed, so pleased had the Admiralty been with one of these vessels, the Water Witch, that they had purchased her, and she had proved herself a very superior vessel She had be en s t at i one d on the coast of Africa, and not a slaver h a d ever come w i t hi n s i g ht of her that had escaped her. HP thought that this gentleman and Cap tain Sy mons, and o th er gent l emen w ho had made these improve ments, were equally deserving consideration as Mr. Snow Harris and his lightning.—( A laugh.) Mr. MORE O'FERR AL L said, that among the re wards paid for scientific purposes were— To Mr. Shuckburgb, for his Operator...... £B5 For Lightning Conductors ..................... 122 To Mr. Johns, for his 1nventi0n5............ 300 The total amount bestowed in rewards was 8651. 135. The places where surveys were carrying on at present were on the home station. At the mouth of the Thames, at North Fleet, on the east and west coasts of Scotland, at the Orkney Islands, in the Irish Channel, and at the mouth of the Shannon. On the foreign stations, in the Meklite rannean, on the shores of Greece, at the mouth of the St. Lawrence, on the west coast of America, and on the coast of Australia. Mr. HUME thought that the names of the persons re ceiving rewards ought to be made known, as it might hap pen that rewards might be bestowed on those who were not deserving of them, and publicity would check abuse. He did not mean to say that there had been any abuse, but he thought that in the estimates of each year it should be stated how the rewards voted in former years had been be stowed, and he should also wish that there should annually be made a report of the number of surveying vessels, where employed, and what progress they bad made during the year. Mr. A. CHAPMAN could bear testimony to the use fulness of the surveys, and to the great liberality of the Admiralty in the diffusion of the charts,—(Cheers.) Mr. HUME bad not meant the smallest reflection on the officers engaged in that department ; his only object was to make their labours more useful to the public. He wished to make one remark on the electrical telegraph ; he had himself inspected the apparatus, and be felt con• vinced that the Government ought to avail themselves of the invention. He should be glad to see the Government undertake the subject, and establish a line from London to Portsmouth for instance, which would secure them the means of instantaneous communication by night and day, and at a very little more expense than the semaphore. Lord INGESTRIE wished to know whether the stu dents at the Naval College were instructed in the theory and practice of the steam engine, as from the great and increasing importance of steam navigation be deemed such instruction necessary. Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that it was now un der consideration to place at the disposal of the head of the Naval College, a vessel with a small steam engine for the purpose of giving the students instruction on that subject. Sir GEORGE CLERK wished for some information as to the system pursued at the Naval College. Formerly , instruction used to be given there to young gentle men betore they went to sea, who paid a sum for their in struction sufficient to pay the expenses of the establishment. He now observed a sum of 1,4501. for those expenses. He wished to know what branchesofeducation were taught in the College ; for books he saw an amount of only 501. For merly a superior class of schoolmasters used to be sent on board vessels for the instruction of midshipmen. The num ber now cnly amounted to 22—a number by far too small. He wished to know whether there was any chance of the naval department being able to provide a sufficient number of those schoolmasters to give an effective education. He also wished to know the number of mates now receiving instruction in the Naval College, and if they contributed anything towards its expenses? Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that the SOL was for arranging the library of the Head of the College. He was away at the time, and therefore bad no opportunity of learning from him the sum that would be required for books. There were no students at the College of the class alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman as contributing towards its expenses. The salary of the Head was in lieu of the sum of 51. a year formerly contributed by every gen tleman on board a line of battle ship for naval instruction. With regard to the schoolmasters, none were employed on board ships having naval instructors. In ships which had not naval instructors, schoolmasters were employed as heretofore. Admiral ADAM said that none were eligible to the Naval College but mates, and such as had passed their examination for lieutenants. When they came to the College they were instructed in the higher branches of the mathematics, natural philosophy, nautical astronomy, and mechanics. They had made considerable progress, and took a great interest in their studies. Several officers on half pay had joined the College, and he believed that more would join them. The number of students at present was about 20; they received instruction gratuitously. The vote was then agreed to. Mr. M. O'FERRALL moved that a sum not exceeding 122,236/. be granted for the salaries of officers on the naval establishment at home. Mr. BERNARD wished to draw the attention of the Committee to the hardship inflicted on the inhabitants of Deptford by the property belonging to the Crown being exempted from local taxation ; by this means a burden, amounting to 128/. a year for land tax, and 1,5001. a year for poor rates was inflicted on the parish. He hoped the Government would take the case into their consideration, and allow a Bill to be brought in, compelling the Govern ment to pay their own land tax and poor-rates. Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said the Hon. Member for Greenwich had brought forward the same case last year, and his Hon. Friend the Member for Halifax told him that the Board of Admiralty had no power in the case. He admitted the sufferings of the people of Dept ford, and regret t ed it was not in his power to afford them any relief. He would recommend his Hon. Friend to bring the question before the House. Mr. BARNARD thought the Admiralty had the power if they chose to exert it ; he did not call that an answer, but a put off.—( A laugh.) He would recommend the Government to bring in a Bill for that purpose, as he thought it right that where a great national object was to be obtained, .the Government, and not the locality, should be at the expense. Mr. M. O'FERRALL would refer the Hon. Gentle man to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. BARNARD had obtained a sort of half promise last year from the Hon. Member for Portsmouth, which he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would keep.— ( A laugh.) Mr. W. AT T WOOD said he should scarcely have ventured to characterise the answer of the Government as his Hon. Colleague had done, although he fully agreed with him that it was merely a put off. It was not right for the Board of Admiralty, when they admitted the hard. ship, to excuse it on the ground of usage. He hoped his Hon, Colleague would act upon the hint which had beet, thrown out, and bring forward some measure to remedy the evil, when, he trusted, the Secretary to the Admiralty would not shrink from the opioion he had just given. So crying was the grievance, that he pledged himself to sub mit to the House some proposition to remedy it. It was not merely a local question affecting local interests, but it was one which merited the attention of the House. The Government bad thought proper to possess themselves of nil valuable property in Deptford, and to employ numerous labourers there. They bad subsequently thought fit to abandon their establishments, and the families of the artisans heretofore employed by the Government became dependent upon the inhabitants of the surrounding distric , s. He thought that there was not a Member_of the House who would not agree with him in saying that a gross in justice had been done to those districts. The grounds on which it was inflicted was, that the property of the Crown is exempt from taxation. But was that a principle which should be continued? and was one part of the country to be taxed for the benefit of the nation at large? It the principle existed, it required to be remedied, and he would himself submit it to the House, if he should find it neces sary, if it ought to be continued to be acted on. There was another circumstance connected with the present esti mates to which he wished to call the attention of the House. It was that part of the estimate which related to D, ptford dock-yard. There was an annual sum voted for maintaining that establishment. No work, however, either as regards the building or the repairing of ships is done there. That, then, was a certain sum voted for keeping a dock yard, which was never in operation. The inhabitants of Deptford bad already complained of the existence of this establishment—they had complained that the best part of their town was reserved by the Government, without being devoted to any useful purpose. The Government had said in its own defence, that the works of the navy can be done more economically elsewhere, but that the time might come when it might be necessary to use those yards also, and that it was thought advisable in the meantime to keep up that establishment. He did not, however, agree in this opinion, and if there was a probability that it could ever be turned to any advantage, he did not see why the establishment should not be worked at present, and why the inhabitants should be deprived of such an advantage. They had no right to take from those inhabitants all the valuable parts of the town, and thus deprive the artisans of the neigh bourhood of the employment they should otherwise receive there. The Government had, he thought, but two courses to pursue—let them either abandon the dock-yard alto gether. or if it should be too valuable to allow them to come to such a determination, let them work it, and make an active and useful establishment there. On some future oc casion he would have a better opportunity of laying the facts of the case more clearly and definitely before the House, and he would not neglect that opportunity. Mr. C. WOOD wished to say a few words in confirma tion of the statement of his Right - Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Admiralty. The principle was not peculiar to the department of his Right Hon. Friend. It was a general principle that the Government should not pay such taxes as those that bad been referred to, and it was impossible for the Admiralty alone to apply any remedy in the case. It had been complained that the establishment at Deptford was a useless one, and the Hon. Member for Greenwich bad made a string of statements on that sub ject, which he (Mr. Wood) was surprised at. Within the last two or three years the dockyard at Deptford had been brought into use as a storcyard, and there was now a sum of nearly 26,000/ expended every year there. Mr. HUME said he bad formerly presented a petition from the inhabitants of Deptford, complaining of the tax that had been alluded to, and he certainly thought that their case was a grievous one. Mr. W. ATT WOOD did not wish to direct ary attack against the Admiralty, but he thought that the inhabitants of Deptford had not been fairly treated. Admiral ADAM said that the Hon. Member for Green wich was mistaken in supposing that Deptford was not now employed for useful purposes. All the foreign stores had been formerly brought to Woolwich Dock-yard, but now the sales of foreign supplies are made in Deptford, and the stores that come in from contracts are all landed there. Besides, Captain Huddard's rope-machinery is manufactured there at present. Formerly Deptford was a place where ships were built—it was now turned to a different purpose, very much, he certainly thought, to the benefit of the public service. Mr. ATTWOOD did not deny that the naval sales bad been transferred to Deptford, but he did not think that any one would maintain that there was any proportion be_ tween the past and present employment given to artisans there, or between the expenditure incurred there at pre sent and informer times. Admiral ADAM said that at all events there were over 2,5001. more laid out there now than there were a few years ago. Mr. BARNARD said that the Government could abolish, or at least mitigate the evil which the inhabitants of Deptford complained of, and he did hope after the dis cussion which had taken place on the subject, that her Majesty's Ministry would do away with so great an in justice. The vote was then agreed to. On the next vote being put, which was for a sum of 21,0101. for the salaries of officers and the contingent expences of her Majesty's naval establishment abroad, and for a sum of 526,723/. for the wages of artisans, labourers, and others, employed in the naval establ is h ments at home. Mr. BARNARD complained of the scanty payment now given to ship artisans, and be wished that the pay of those parties had been augmented since last year. Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that the Hon. Mem ber for Greenwich had complained that the pay of ship wrights was at present exceedingly low. Now that pay was fixed on arbitrary statements, but all the advantages which shipwrights enjoyed should taken into account in any estimation on the subject. Those artisans had the advantage of being empl.yed during the whole of the year —they had medical assistance gratis, and the advantage of educating their children. Now when all those circum stances were taken into consideration, he thought that though their pay was but 4s. a day, it was equivalent to the 7s. which they received in private dock-yards. Mr. BARNARD did not still believe that shipwrights were at present fairly treated in the Government dock yards. _ Sir GEORGE GREY said that he knew from his own experience great dissatisfaction existed in the Devonport dockyards as well as elsewhere, owing to the circum stance of the artisans not being classified there. All work- men at present received the same wages, though they might not perform the same work. He trusted that the representations which were made on the subject could be attended to, and he wished that some means might be used to allay the dissatisfaction which at present prevailed on the matter. Sir GEORGE CLERK said that he believed it was mpossible to establish any system of classification in dock yards. Whenever any attempt of the kind had been made it had been attended with great dissatisfaction. That system had been recommended and tried by the members of the Naval Commission, but it was soon after abandoned. The only true way of getting an adequate return for the wages of the workmen was to put them upon task-work.— ( Hear, hear.) It had been found necessary on the present system greatly to increase the number of artificers. From 6,000, formerly considered sufficient, they had been in creased to 7,500, and now 800 more were about to be added. Yet be was certain that the same quantity of work was not obtained from these men which could be got from a much smaller number on task system —( Hear. ) Mr. WOLVERLY ATTWOOD said, in the last Ses sion his Hon. Colleague and himself had submitted to the Hoase various statements showing that the rate of wages to artificers in her Majesty's dock-yards vas too low in com parison with that of merchants' yards artificers. And such appeared to be the general feeling of the House that the rate of pay to the Queen's shipwrights should be increased, that the then Chancellor of the Exchequer assured the House that the question should receive the best considera tion of the Government. It had been shown that ship. wrights in merchant yards would receive as much, working only two-thirds of the year, as Queen's artificers working all the year round. Now if the country wished for the services of the best men she must pay the best price for them.—( Hear, hear.) And the natural inference fr, m the promise of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to " eon. sider the subject" was, that something would be done. —(Hear, hear.) If that were proved to be a far too liberal and generous interpretation of the promise, why then the House would know how to be deluded by such declarations in future. Had it not been for indispo sition, he should have put on the books a notice of a motion by way of amendment, on this vote, for an address to the Crown to adopt some measure on the subject. He thought no point of more vital importance with regard to our navy than this—to secure for our navy the services of the most skilful artificers in ship-building.—( Hear.) Mr. C. WOOD said he did not know what the Hon. Member meant by insinuating that a former pledge of the Government on the subject had not been redeemed. The assurance given was that the superannuation which had been taletn from the shipwrights in 1832 or 1833 should be re stored to them, and so it was, within a month of the dis cussion on the subject, with an ex post facto operation, too, to the Order in Council making the change. —( Hear, hear.) Now, as to the present system of work ing, let it be remembered that it was not introduced by the Government but by the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Pembroke, who had inquired into all the rates of wages in private and mercantile dock-yards, and fixed the rate in the Queen's yards at the average of those wages, in cluding, certainly, the lost time, adding a bonus of 64. a day to the best class, and of Is. a day to the leading men in the Queen's yards, above the rate of the merchants' yards. A similar investigation bad taken place in 1836, when a similar conclusion had been arrived at. It should be re membered also that this system had been adopted to do away with the jobbing system, about which certainly there had been no small degree of jobbery—(Hear)—and consi derable abuses. The whole question, however, really came to one of wages.—( Hear.) There had undoubtedly been some complaints. But it was observable that the greatest content prevailed in those dock-yards most remote from political influences, and that the complaints were confined to a few. Then as to the point, whether higher wages should be given or not ? Now the practical test was, whether there could be said to be any difficulty in getting shipwrights for the Queen's yards ?—( Hear, bear.) Last year a great deal had been said of men leaving the Queen's yards, but it will come to nothing; only sixteen left Chatham, their places were soon filled up ; nor did any difficulty ever occur in getting workmen for the Queen's yards. What reason then existed for increasing the pay ? Mr. W. ATTWOOD said no doubt men could be found to enter any yard ; but then the question was, whether, at the present rate of wages, the best workmen could be procured ?—( Hear.) With regard to classifies.. tion, he believed no system could generally be more ob noxicus to the artificers. Mr. CORRIE was glad the number of artificers had been increased in the Queen's yards, but he thought it would be found necessary to increase them yet further. The Hun. Member went on to insist that the present state of our navy was altogether inefficient. He referred to numerous returns, and evidence before Committees, ex tending over the period from 1772 to 1805 inclusive, to show that it had, until recently, been the practice of the Government to keep the navy not only in an efficient state during peace, but to augment it. In 1772 the service possessed 120 ships of the line, and at the commence ment of the American war there were 123 ships in commission. He believed that the expense of a war of even one year's duration would be found, in the present state of the navy, to be much more than would have been incurred in keeping the navy in an efficient state and fully prepared for war, throughout the whole period of the peace. The vete was then agreed to. No. 9-28,2301., for wages of artificers and labourers in dockyards abroad, was also agreed to ; as was also No. 10-1,380,0001 for naval stores. Upon the reading of No. 11-193,784/. for new works, Mr. HODG ES objected that the item of 1,0001., for a new_work to improve the navigation of the Medway, would only effect a palliative of a very great evil. Mr. MORE O'FE RRALL said that Rochester-bridge was the great cause of the evil, The work to which the 1,000/. was to be applied was, he must acknowledge, only an experiment. But the engineer, under whose superin s tendence it was to be carried on, entertained a strong hope that it would confine the river to its proper channel, and that it would save the country a very great expense. After a few observations from Admiral ADAM and Mr. U ME, the vote was agreed to. A vote of 17,6691., for defraying the charge of medicine, 4:c., was agreed to without any discussion, as was MAO/. for naval miscellaneous services. On the vote for 758,6.501. to defray the expenses of the packet contracts being put, Mr. HUME wished to know what progress had been made with respect to the contracts for the West India Packets. He should be sorry to see the contract signed without further information. Contracts had been entered into the amount of two millions and a half for the purpose of furnishieg these vessels, and he thought, therefore, that the House, before it /panted so large a sum, ought to have further information. If he had been rightly informed, the contracts for the name works had been offered for half the amount. Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that no offer had been made so fair as the one they had adopted. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that if the Hon. Member for Kilkenny meant to call the attention of the House to the subject, be ought to have given notice to that effect. Mr. HUME thought that the Government ought to appoint a Committee, and take the evidence that indivi duals were prepared to give on the subject. The ques tion was, whether the House was to involve themselves in contracts of this description, by which they would be bound for so many years, while they were ignorant of the whole circumstances of the case. Mr. CHARLES WOOD stated that the subject to which the Hon. Member for Kilkenny referred had received the utmost consideration from the Go vernment during the past year. (Hear.) Every source of information had been applied to, and the bargains which had been entered into were extremely fair and reasonable, and in that opinion be was confirmed by several persons who were excellent authorities on the sub ject. Certainly the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, if he wished to bring forward a motion to stop the contract, had a right to do so ; but if a Committee was appointed, he had no hesitation in saying it would be so much time wasted, as every inquiry that possibly could be made had taken place on the subject. Mr. WARBURTON trusted that his Hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny would move for a Select Committee on the subject, because be thought that the Government ought not to have entered into any contracts without first having the subject of them brought properly under con sideration. Mr. HUNIE thought that some inquiry ought to take plae , before the country was made responsibly for so many year,. SUPERIOR LONDON-MADE WATCHES. —A. B. SAVORY and SONS, Watemakers, No. 9, Corn' hill, London (opposite the Bank of England), submit for se lection a very large STOCK of Highly-finished London-mad e WATCHES, the whole of which being manufactured under their own inspection, on their own premises, they can afford t° sell at least 25/. per cent. below the icsnal trade price for an !I: tide of the same qua lity. A printe d warranty is given vn t" each Wi,tch. PRICES MOUNTED IN SILVER CASES. Fine Vertical Watches, jewelled, with double backed engine -turned cases, warranted £4 4 Patent detached Lever Watches, jewelled in four holes, maintaining power, with seconds hands, and double-backed cases, warranted 6 6 Either of the above in silver hunting cases, 10s. 6d. extra. A large variety of second-hand Silver Watches, which hal e been carefully examined, and can be warranted at £2 egg"' GOLD CASES, SIZE FOR LADIES. Fine Vertical Watches, jewelled, in engine-turned gold case., and gold dial s , warrai.ked Fine Vertical Watches, jewelled, with double-backed 0 engine -turned gold cases an d go ld di a l s, warranted 12 1•• a Patent detached Lever Watches, jewelled in four holes with double-backed gold cases and gold dials, 0 warranted 14 14 GOLD CASES, SIZE FOR GENTLEMEN. Patent detached Lever Watches, jewelled in fuur holes, seconds, and double-backed gold cases, war ranted 14 14 o Patent detached Lever Watches, capped, jewelled in s'x holes, seconds, double-backed gold eases and enamel dials, w arrante d 17 17 • .......... Patent detached Lever Watches, canoed, jewelled in six holes, seconds, double-backed gold cases and gold di a l s , warranted 21 Either o the Gentlemen's Watche• may be had in gold huili" cases, for 31. 3s. each extra. N.B. Second-hand Watches purchased in exchange. .................... BIRTH S. On the 29th ult., at Clopton Hou s e, St ra tf or d- on -Avon ( th e lady of Ch ar l es T. Warde, Esq., of a son and heir. On the Ist inst., at Kentish-town, Mrs. William Rivington' of a (laughter. On the Ist inst., in Lower Brook-t,treet, Grosvenor-square, he lady of Gerard Ralston, Esq., of a son. Of On the Ist inst., in Upper Grusvenor-street, Lady Jai.',,•ff, ' a daughter. A I? RIED. On the 26th ult., k t St. Bride's Church, Liverpool, Char b le n g Campbell, Esq., banker, Glasgow, t o A gnes , d aug hter rf Thomson, Lsq , of Northfield, Dumfriesshire, North Brita in . - Mr. GISBORNE hoped as they had gone through 'the votes for the effective service of the navy, that the Chair man would be allowed to report progress as they were about to commence with the votes for the non-effective services of the navy, and seeing that the reductions which were made year after year in time of peace had been unsatis factory, and not what the country had a right to expect, he wished to have an opportunity of giving full expression to his opinions. That was an inconvenient time (nearly twelve o'clock) to do so, and therefore, unless he had an as surance that upon the bringing up the Report, he would have an opportunity of addressing the House on this subject, he would think it his duty to move that the Chairman should at once r. port progress. Mr. MORE O'FERR ALL would undertake that the Report should be brought up at such an hour as to cri me the Hon. Gentleman an opportunity of addressing the House. The vote was then agreed to. 512,385/. was voted for military pensions and allowances. On 187,2634 being proposed for civil pensions and allowances, Mr. HUME said it was clear that so long as any de partment had the power of granting pensions, there would never be any reduction. It would be necessary to bring this subject before them, and he would call upon the House to gire a list of all pensions that had been granted in all departments, civil and military, and he thought the public would then see the extravagant way in which money was dispo,ed of. When they came to raise new taxes, and it was known that a House with not forty Members in it, hal voted the public money at an extravagant rate, people would re . quire a little better attention on the part of their repre sentatives to this subject. The Hon. Member for East Kent (Mr. Plumptre) had said that the Government i O. ought to increase their naval force. He (Mr. Hume) had • Fi e dee' Suddenly, on the 29th ult. at the house of George o f always thought that the Hon. Member Wag a man of k g ii - „b_t r eet, Southwa ' rk, Mrs. Sarah Sketchley, late peace, but it now appeared that he was a man of war. E K s ac.in ,, t i o'n, in the 68th year of her age. 1101' (Laughter.) He thought the Hon. Member must have On s 22d ult., at St. James's-place, 11w - ill:stead-road , _ ea t, forgotten those precepts so often inculcated by those who relict of the late C. Lsete, Esq., of Northumberland -s" associated with him. When the Government came to Strand, propose taxes, the Government would find that those gen_ On the 26th ult., at Fraser Lodge, Portobello, Miss tlemen who urged an increase of expenditure, would not Ann Banner. t Eeq' t aged 52. On the 27th nit., at Bathwiek-hill, Bath, W. Ken be so ready to enable them to meet it.--( Hear, hear.) Mr. PLUMPTRE'S opinion was, that the way to aged 66. aged 81. On the 23tli ult., at Paris. John Stephenson, Es, Marian, the maintain peace was to be always prepared for war. On the 28th ult., at Granard Lodge, Eleanor ~ The vote was then agreed to. slaughter of Alexander Hamilton Robson, Esq., of her Maj esty 68,141/. was voted for defraying the expenses of con- 3d Regiment, Buffs, aged 15 months and 13 days. the i " veying convicts to New South Wales and Van Diemen's On the 29th ult., at Francis -terrace, Kentish-town , Land. ' fant son of Assistant - Commissary-General Dinwiddie. 1 74,3741. was voted for defraying the freight of ships and transports for conveying troops and stores. The House then resumed, and the Chairman repotted the resolutions to the House. London t Printed and Publiched by MITED(t (.“ No. 112 s;trznd. at The Sun nitir-e, ; county of ..‘tiddit4ex.—Tuesday, March 3, 1840. E STING EmerioN INLAND WAREHOUSING. Mr. LABOUCHERE said hf lute no .bjection to ac cede to the n:otion of the Right Ho n. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn), whom he did not now see in his pla^e, to refer the Inland Warehuusi:l Bill to , a Select Committee. He hoped no delay would take plAce it+ moving the Com mittee, and he should with that understanding postpone the second reading till that day w, tek. Mr. CHRISTOPHER moved for leave to bring in a Bill to consolidate the laws relating - to Sewers in England and Wales.—Agreed to. Mr. PUSE Y moved for leave to bring in a Bill to en aide the owners of settled estates w defray the expenses of draining by way of mortgage. PENSIONS AND APPOINTMENTS. Colonel SIBTHORP moved for appointments, to gether with the several salaries rind allowances granted to or received by each, from the 22d day of November, 1830, to the present period. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no ( bjection to the return if the year 1820 was inserted for 1830 That would be only fair play. Colonel SIBTHORP would leave the Right Hon. Gentleman to do as he pleased; but if any objection was made to his motion he would pay the expense out of his own pocket. " Let the galled jade wince, his whiners were unwrung." —( Laughter. ) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER made an observation which was inaudible in the gallery; after which Colonel S IBT HORP (as we understood) gave notice that he should bring hi, motion forward on some future occasion. The House then adjourned at a Quarter to One o'Clock THE BLUDGEON . ARGUMENT FOR THE CORN-LAWS. (FROM A CORRESPONDENT.) An extraordinary scene occurred at the Bolton Board of Guardians on Friday last, which, coupled with Mr. Paulton's treatment by the landowners of Worksop, illustrates the total want of argument on the part of the bread tax advocates, whin h leaves them no resource but to stifle discussion. Mr. Thomasson, one of the Guardians, had entered a motion on the' books, the week before, to the effect that the Board do petition the Legislature for a total repeal of the existing Corn and Provision Laws," and, at the meeting in question, rose, in pursuance of his notice-, to bring the matter be fore the Board, when Mr. Weston, a Tory, amid cries of " Order" from all parts of the room, attempted to interrupt him, insisting that the Board had no right to entertain any question of this nature. The Chairman also interfered on the same side, and said he should not sit to listen to any such remarks, as it was not a subject within their province. On Mr. Thomasson speaking to enforce his views, the Chairman proceeded to be labour the table with his walking stick, thus altogether drowning the speaker Mr. Thomasson's voice. The Mayor of Bolton endeavoured in vain to obtain a hearing for the mover, who, finding it impossible, con tented himself with simply reading the petition, and concluded by moving its adoption and presentation. Mr. Bell seconded him. The Chairman refused to put the motion, when the sense of the meeting was taken by Mr. Nuttall, there appearing for it eleven, and against it six ; majority for the petition, five ; the Tory Guardians to a man voting against it. The Chairman refused to sign the petition ; and, after another stormy discussion, it was decided by the same majority that Mr. John Ashworth, the Vice-Chairman, who was present, and is a staunch repealer, should sign it on behalf of the Board. The above proceedings have given a strong impulse to the cause of repeal ; and there wilt shortly be nume rous petitions poured into the House of Commons from Bolton and neighbourhood in favour of total repeal. Bolton suffers more than many other places from these laws, as its staple manufactures are seven-eighths of them exported. THE MARKETS.-(YESTERDAY.) PRICE Ur The highest price of Bread in th Loaf. Good Bread may be had at BitLAD. le Metropolis is 10;id for the 410 PRICES 0 SEEDS. Per Cwt. Per Quarter. New English fled C10ver...558.90s St. Fein Old Ditto Ditto -s. -a. -s It!,.e Grass • -s, 40s. 441 New Foreign Ditto -s. 565. 30s. Stacey Grass -s. -s. - 6 Old Ditto Ditto s. -s. -s. Linseed, for feeding -s. 4 , 55. 521 New White Clover sos. 655. 70s. Ditto, for sewing -s. 545. 500 Old Ditto Ditto ...-s. -s. -s. Ditto, for crushing...-s. 425. es New Trefoil ..-s liks at . " Canary _._. 70s, 801 Old alto -s. Ws. 22s Henna -s 33s 40 , Trefolium 4 254 3"s Per Bushel. English Carraway -s 525. 565. White *0 ustard...l Is. .',. 14,, i.d. Foreign Ditto -s. 504 sfis !Brown! Ditte. I 56.0 d. 19s. ful Coriander -s "Os. 9 5. I Tares ss. 6d. 7,- 6 (1 . Rapeseed, English tine(per Last) 2Si. 31/. Foreign 261. 25!. PRICES OF HOPS. Farnham Pockets (per cwt 5 0: (Is. 0/. Os. to 01. Os. East Ksiit Pockets.- Ditto Bags "1 in;. Us Os. to 41 4.. Mid Kent Pockets 3/. 10s. 4/. 10s. to 5' 12.. Ditto Bags 'i.. Ills. 01. Os 1.... 4., Os. Sussex ll. Os, 01 0.. to 3 . 51.. Yearlings O/. Os. 3/, Os. to 3/. 10, Old /Ms PRICES OF LEATHER - -- —.........—.. Per lb. -- d. to d - Per 111. & to '. CropHldes,3u to 40Ib. each 11 13.1 Horse Hides, t , erman... It --------P . 50 l2 16 ---- -•- - Spanish ... 13 :. --, , ,0 60 ..... 1 1.; ; ; .2 1 .............• Bull Hides ........., !O 13 —.----40 50 Butts, V triol ... t s '22 ------- Por g e i rg l ii ..-- 151 tt Seal Skins, 7l l s arg7... Foreign Hides ...... ...... 111 19 1---- small—, .„ 2O 22 t Dressing Hides .. ... I 1 14 {Kips . --Sl:aved... 13 17 13,i515... Be,' Saddlers' I iide s ... .. 15 b .- Horse Hides, English ~, 11 I Shoulders l6 .0 Calt Skins, if r o un d e d 2d. to 4d. por • b . .. ." snore. PIC O OIL. RapeOil,brown, pe, ton, 351. R Os.— E Ref uted, 36/.los / ;‘seed I il, 9 : 24 L W iikeed Oil Cake at th e Mill (IO), 14/. us.—Rape ( ake, pet ten, 7. PRICE of TALLOW, SOAP, icc. per 1121 b. Town Fallow - Od- Yellow Russia sos. 6d. Mottled White Soap Ditto .... Melting Stuff ... , Ditto Rough ..,. 2ss Od. PRICE OF RAW FAT, per stone of Sft. Price of Fallow (as stated by the Tallow Melters) 3,„ Id. PRICE ".3F CANDLES. The price of good Store andles in the Retail Shops is as follows Candles, per dozen, Ss. Od. ; inferior, 7s. ed. ; Moulds, Vs. 6d. Sixpence per doze;, discount for cash. UAL MARKET. s, d Adair's Cheater Holywell Ord's Rec lh ugh Townley l7 3 Wylam. Walls End Brown's'.... Walls r'nd Hew on .. 2. 6 Walls End Hilda "1 4 ' Walls End Killingworth 22 0 Walis End Newmarch Walls End Pe cy Ilensham 20 0 Walls End Riddell's .... 22 6 Walls End Belmont ,hipc arrived since a. d• Walls Endßraddyll'slietton 0 %Valls End Hetton Wz"s End Ltmbton 5 Walls End Stewart's z 5 2 Walls End Hartlepool l3 3 Walls End Kellne Walls End Barrett - W, Ils End Coundnn Walls End Gordon ..... %alis End South Durham Walls End Tees Hetton 1' Walls End Tees .3; Walls End Devonshire 2l' last market.diy, 71. PATENT LEVER WATCHES , With silver double-bottom cases ... £6 6 v With silver hunting cases This celebrated construction (thz most accurate on which a watch can be made) is now offer-...c1, with the latest improve" ments i. e. the detached escaper, Wit, jewelled in tour Welt capped, hand to ma* the seconds, hard enamel dial, and main taining power to continue going vrl.:le winding up, at the ahoy. price. A printed warranty is given, with fixed terms, en which the Watches will always receive any attention needed. T. COX SAVORY, Watchmaker, Silver and Goldsmith, 47, C orn hill (S even d oe r. from Gracechurch-street). Landon. N.B.—Second-hand Watches purchased in exchange. I -