The Sun. — London, England, 1847-04-23 00:00:00

worthy of the Noble Lord, worth f y t o he ft N he oh n le am Lo eh rd e bears, would and he believed that thecartei r o be yet the brightest illustraonofth to offeratname. Sir JOHN PAKINGToN e desired his thanks to the Noble Lord (J. Russell) for his his course upon the present question , a nd to ten d er h im support. There was no part of the Hon. Baronet's speech thae he dissented from so much as that portion which alleged that the Government plan had been tr iumphantly re futed. So far from agreeing in this opinion, he thought that the case of the Government had been most clearly said conclusively maintained. Why had the speeches of the Hon. Members for Finsbury and Durham been so feeble ? Why, but because that they had no system of their own to propose—no scheme or plan on which to proceed. He considered the opening speech of the No ble Lord at the head of the Government had anticipated every objection, and completely made out the necessity of the proposed grant. Fortified, as that speech had been by the able speeches of the Right Honourable Member for Edinburgh, and the Right Hon. Baronet the Home Secretary, little remained for him to say. He would only refer to one point. It f was that which proposed to leave out certain Dissenters fr o m that participating in the grant. He could not agreew ith exclusion. As a member of the Church of Englan d, wished deal and 440 as a member of the National Society, he filth the subject before them in a charitable stitatio in th e There were several most important - country which would not be eligible f or in l t a ls h e le grsntHemight instance one of the establish ments in the country, w hich most theva va l u able of the Churchmen and the Disse ntersmet together, and were educated, in the mos t arisen on account of difficulty whatever had ever arisen on account of religion. The establish ent to which he referred Ras religion. The establis . u od The er King Edward's Gram m ar read n s; :x h t o r o a l c t a f t r i3 o m i r m t i h n e g r h u a l l :s . which the school wa s managed.-The following was a statement of the children of the different persuasions in that school:— Church of England 798 Independents _ Wesleyans Baptists Socinians . . Lady Huntingdon's .. 8 Jews 4 Roman Catholics 4 Swetlenborgians Calvinists 1 Quakers .. 1 This large school was conducted in this harmonious manner. He confessed that he wished most earnestly that he could confine the schools in such a manner as to give religious education to the children, in accordance with the principles of the Church of England ; but, whatever might be his own private opinion on the sub istet, he must allow some weight to the principles and opinions of the other great sects and parties throughout the country.—(Hoar, hear.) He thought the ar guments of her Majesty's Government, in bringing forward this measure, perfectly conclusive, and he hoped that the attention of Government would be shortly turned to the condition of the labourer, and to the sanatory condition of the people of this country. H . e must confess, however, that he was to some extent dis appointed, because her Majesty's Government had not proceeded in a more comprehensive manner than they had done upon these subjects.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME was anxious to say a few words upon this subject, as he must say that from promises and pledges Loen by the Noble Lord the Member for the c ity o f ndon to his constituency he did expect to have seen a plan more comprehensive than that introduced upon the present occasion. The Noble Lord stated in the com mencement of the present session that he was prepared with a more extended plan of general education, and he was quite surprised that at the present time, when a vote of 700,0001. was taken for the army alone that the paltry sum of 100,000 L only should be required to carry out the plan of the Government with respect to the education of the country. He thought that the people of England were willing to bear a much larger sum tier that purpose.—(Hear, hear.) The Lion Member for Edinburgh (Hr. Macaulay) had made a most eloquent, and a most forcible speech upon the subject, and the arguments brought forward in that speech were in his opinion perfectly unanswerable, and be most cordially agreed with the Right Hon. Gentle man in considering the present state of education in Scotland as resulting from the improved and general system of education which prevailed in that country.— (Hear, hear.) The system of establishing schools in every parish of Scotland was a most desireable and effi cient one, and one which he should be most happy to see carried out in this country. He quite agreed with the conduct of the Prussian Government, in prosecuting the education of the people, he believe with the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, that it was the duty of every Government to do its utmost to promote the education of the people, and he regretted to hear any lion. Member in that House say that it was not the duty of the Government to endeavour to edu cate the people. He really thought that that was one of the first, if nit the first, duties of the State. He could not reconcile the statement of the lion. Member for Derby, that the people iif Scotland could most of them write a good letter, and yet he went on to say that the people were little better than " barbarians." He would dismiss the subject from his mind, and hurl back the eharge thus made upon his country, by saying that the statements of the Him. Member were perfectly incon intent and irreconeileahle. The Hon. Member then proceeded to contrast the state of education in Pru-sia and the United States, where a system of State edu eation prevailed, with the state of education in this country, where there did not exist any general system of Government education. The result of the analysis of crime in England fur the last three years, showed that there was a decrease of 32 per cent, in the countries where the people were best educated. Mr. Neeson, who made out these tables, made it evident that wherever there was crime there also was ignorance, and the complete absence of the means of education. To show that Mr. Laing never intended to say that education did no good, he would refer to the.ob servations he made in favour of the penny postage, of which he was an anxious supporter. He agreed with air. Laing that every measure ought to be sanctioned I which ev e n i n di rect l y promoted education. He was told by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, and the Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests. that they were beset with difficulties in this measure, . and that they deplored they could cot carry out a more extensive system of education. He maintained that it was the right of every one to have education, and it was not a matter of toleration. A Catholic or a Dis senter was as good a man as a member of the Church of Egland, and lied as good a claim to the advantage of State education. lie did not assent to the character of moral courage which was so generally given to the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) On this question the Noble Lord displayed the greatest cowardice. He was afraid to take the course - which his judgment approved, and sculked in the most shameful manner from the adoption of the right course. Be was going to answer the grounds on which Mr. Baines proceeded in his epposition to the education scheme, but he would not allude to them now. His own opinion was, that the dissenters and the members of the Church of England ought to be put into the same boat and sent across the channel. Ile thought an effort should be made to unite all classes, and he did not doubt, judging from the evidence they had from Holland and from Ireland, that this was practicable. lie thought if her Majesty's Government agreed to appoint a Committee to enquire -what each party wanted, that means could be devised for this purpose. They adopted such a pro Teding with regard to the navigation laws, the pooelaws, and other questions, and he did not doubt, but if this were done with regard to educa tion, a mode would be pointed out to reconcile all differ. ences. When Holland was under subjection to France, at the time of the French revolution, an attempt was made by France to give education combined with reli gion to the people of Holland, and this attempt was met by the ministers of the various creeds in a spirit of good will. The consequence was ; that the clergymen of the different persuasions and the schoolmaster—each in their respective sphere--carried out the intentions Irf the Government. The next case he had to bring before them to show the practicability of combining a religious and secular education, was the national system of .eduCation adopted in Ireland, and he would refer to I the 9th report of the National Board, to show the per- I feet success which had attended their efforts. He attributed much of the crime which existed in this . country to the religious differences which prevailed; and those who fomented them could not lay their hands • esa their hearts and say, at they were doing their duty to God and mane and if crime could be repressed by education, as he thought it might in a great degree, it 'would be cheaply purchased at 500,000/. a-year, instead of 100,000/, or at almost any cost. Ile considered that the state of things in this country required a greater and more comprehensive measure than the one proposed, and if the Committee sought were granted he should be able to prove that a truly national system of education might be earried out without any of the s which appeared to be involved in the Government n. He also considered that there ought to be a its inister of Instruction in this country, assisted by a board of persons selected from the most competent in 111 "' community, to whom the task of superintending the edesuceatioft of the people should be intrusted. It was on l ien grounds that he'-.felt felt it his duty to vote for the .sirdwillet:l4ofmtizisslionsFriend. Government, b eefwee • said he should support the plan of the 'come when it was th e h? considered that the time had incumbent duty of the State to promote the education oT the e i:ieople by every means in it s power. If they wanteatt of of this necessity, it to ,I: ir a t of every 100 of the -was to be found in the f population, only from 30 could read, a were hat 1,000,000 or 800,000 ot the children of the poor re- ace i v i sig no education at all, and were being brought up so rapine, as it were, as a profession • It armoured to lint that a great evportion of the public feelin g was in favour of the plan. Looking at thedesnta:tmoieof Church, of the different dissenting . s the there wag as large -a mass of public Itenlins' In favour of it as was ever given in support of any othe r public measw e which had of late years engaged the at ibentien of th at House. The Hon. Gentleman the Mem ber for Montrose was the only one in that House who had advocated a compulsory system of education ; but be did not agree with him, as he considered that the plan of aiding the voluntary efforts of benevolent indi viduals was the best that could be adopted, and that a Compulsory system was foreign to the habits of the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.) But where a aeltool was required in a district, such as a colliery clittrict, where there well no benevolent persons to raid Ilit.by voluntary contributions, he thought that the state should step forward and provide the necessary funds.—(Hew heard He w as strongly opposed to a siecelsya i tr - ea cation, as he cons id ered that reli t" 04%4%1'1in an t part of education ; yet he be ifeito ' nln re of good than evil ; an d , there- I *re, - le i , iodid )ict ' . i ' that mode of education to those ,:-, :iiiicliw c 4o: i'. ..,, en who were in ferour 4:1 it, i - , ; - L . :.--Ai4 (1 , , -... ee: . „-:ie s is•-t "e, s ". 4 tei'sr&_ k , -' \- ' '' 7 - e•eier-Piett . if::/- •' N.. a S. leaving the religious portion of the education to the clereymen of the different denominations, and to the parents of th e c hil ; ren . H e per f ec tly concurredin the remarks of th e N o bl e L or d, the Member for Arundel, (Lord Surrey), who sp o ke so much to his credit the other night.—(Hear. hear.) As, he said, that although those ground deny aid seofaiding in of the R oman C a th o lic persuasion were not to participate in the grant that he should not, on that from the funds of the State for therpurpo sects.—(Hear, hear.) promoting education among other oth of p the community disability.—(Hear, i . l . ty.—(Hear, hear.) Yet he (Sir W. James) coul not e hel thinking that the exclusion of that portion would be another Catholic He thought the speech of the Hon. Member for Durham was one more ag ainst the Church and the aristocracy than anything else ; and he regretted to see a Gentle man, niwho had attained such a position in the country, come forward and give utterance to such preju • diced sentiments as he had done. Sir JOHN EASTHOPE said it was with the deepest regret that he saw her Majesty's Government submit to consult the expediency of the moment, which they had done in the present measure. There were great objec tions to it, and there was one greater, and that was the unfortunate compromise made between the Church of England and the Wesleyans, by which the Catholics were excluded.—(Hear, hear) He admired the speech of the Noble Lord (the Earl of Arundel), and he hoped that the Wesleyans would from it learn true sentiments of Christian charity. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD said it was his intention to vote for the Hon. Member's amendment, for he did feel that the measure of the Government was a violation of the rights of the people, and was a violation of religious liberty, because it gave undue advantages to one sect over. another. He was as anxious to support education as any man in the House; but the exclusion of the Catholics was most unworthy of the Govern ment. He did give great praise to the Earl of Arundel for his speech, but it emanated rather from the goodness of his heart than anything else; but he would say that the people of England would respect the Catholic body if they stood. upon their rights, for he did not know on what principles any Catholic Member in that House could vote for the proposition of the Government. The Methodist bodies in the town of Rochdale - were not parties to any compromise which might have been en tered upon. They had commissioned him to present many addresses, which embodied the truest principles of religious liberty. On the subject of the Maynooth grant, he was one of those who oppoeed that grant, on the ground that it was hostile to civil ,and religious rights, and he now opposed this grant on the ground that the civil and religious rights of the Catholics themselves were interfered with. He did not wish that the Church to which he belonged should exercise any undue influ ence over the religious or civil rights of any sect which differed from it. For these various' reasons, he would give his vote in favour of the amendment. Sir W. MOLESWORTH entirely agreed in the opinion of the Hon. Memb..r who had last spoken, and with the Hon. Member for Montrose, that a system of national secular education. divested of every interference in religious opinion, would be far preferable to the measure proposed. With regard to the measure itself, th e first question was, should the Government interfere at all in the education of the people ?—secondly, to what extent it should do so ?—and, thirdly, as to the nature of the education to be given by them 7 There were many opinions upon this subject outside, in favour of the non-interference of the Government under any circumstances ; but he would ask whether it was not the duty of every Government to promote the interests of the public and of the Government by educating the people? The Government should teach the people the difference between right and wrong, as that alone would make them willingly obedient to the laws ; and,:there fore, the education of the people was a matter of primary importance to the State. He thought that the State should educate the people. With regard to crime, they were at that moment at their wits' end to prevent its increase. He was chairman of a Committee which had to deliberate with reference to this subject, and they could devise no means to prevent its increase. Although good gaols and good gaolers might in some degree check the progress of crime, yet lie thought that good schools and good schoolmasters would check it still more. No person objected to large expenditure on the part of the State in matters of less importance than the education of the people, and there should, therefore, no objection be offered in any expenditure for that edu cation. He would ask those who were the opponents of State interference, if there were not hundreds of thou sands of people in this country too poor to educate their children ? How then were they to be educated, except by private charity, under which such an efficient system of superintendence as could be exercised under a na tional regulation would be impossible. Many of these educational charities, especially those supported by voluntary contributions, were deficient in funds, depending upon accidental donations for their resources, to increase which they w- re obliged to have recourse to the most unfortunate, and he might almost say degrading solicitations. If he were a member of the humbler class he should feel it more consonant with his feelings to have his children educated at the expf nse of the state than by private charity. lie should rather claim the education of his children from the State as a right, and to which he was entitled for the benefit of the community, than receive it from the uncertain bounty of his fellows citizens, from whom he should take it as a boon and as a favour.— (Hear, hear.) The next question was as to what extent, and in what manner the State should interfere in edu cation? In his opinion the State should interfere so far as that, no children should from want of means re main ignorant of so much of the elements of an educa tion as would tend to E.ave them from crime. —(Hear.) This system should be carried out without reference to creed or belief. There had been three methods pro• posed in which this interference on the part of the State should have been made, of which he considered that the only practicable one was the proposal diet the State should contribute to the support of the alreedy existing schools of each sect. The dissenters of a certain class had, to some extent, thrown an obstacle in the way of the last measure which he had mentioned, as they had a consciencious objection to receiving any grant from the State. In our eastern dominions the people were some times in danger of perishing by starvation, from the failure of the rice crop, and the Government attempted to remedy the deficiency by supplies of animal food, to which the people had an insuperable objection, founded on their religion. lie thought that what fo'sd was to the body, education was to the mind. the last objection to which he would refer, was a very grave one. It was the proposition to leave out the Ro man Catholic altogether. He had been much astonished at this arraegs meet, and up to this week he believed no one out of the Government knew that such an exclusion would be proposed. He regretted the interpretation which had been given to the minutes of 1839. This in. terpretarion had not, however, been given to it till 1847. Since 1839 till then, no such interpretation had taken place. The Noble Lord said, thst as soon as Roman Catholics applied for the grant their application would be taken into consideration, but that, as yet, no such ap plication had been made. This was, however, incorrect. In February last a Mr. Langdon applied to the Council in respect to the educational grant, and Dr. Kay Shut tleworth replied to him, that their Lordships would, if a definite application was made to them in respect to the Roman Catholics, they would give it their most careful consideration. That this was the interpretation of the minutes would seem to he the-case. from the proceedings of the Wesleyan Committee of Education, in March anti April 1844, according to certain letters and documents of theirs, published in last week's Watchman. To the letters there addressed to the Coun cil of Education they replied that they would be disposed to give every consideration to any objections the Wes leyans might have to offer to the mode recommen led by the fhrtner. A conference ensued, in which • the Council made such explanations about the Scriptures being either read daily entire, or extracts from them, in the schools, such as to remove the objections of the Wesleyans. This would have included the Catholics, as nothing was then sail about the authorised verson being alone used. (The Hen. Member then quoted the resolutions of a public meeting, held a few days ago, the Earl of Shrews bury in the chair, complaining of the exclusion to which the Government proposed to subject then in this grant.) After the speeches made by the Noble Lord the Member 'or the West Riding of Yorkshire (Lord Morpeth), and .he Right lion. Baronet the Member lhr Devonport (Sir G. Gr,y), he felt encouraged to give notice that he would move. in some stage of the present question, a re solution declaring that in any future grant the Roman Catholics should be admitted to participate in it on the same footitee as other religious seats.—(Hear, hear.) Lord MAHON supported the proposition of the Go vernment. When they considered the enormous amount of ignorance which prevailed, he could not see what other course they could take than supporting this grant. By re ferring to the various reports submitted to this House, they would find the enormous amount of ignorance which prevailed and the necessity which existed for the change It was impossible that they could have things as• they were, and a change was, therefore, necessary. If this plan of the Hon. Member for Dumfries were im practicable, as he thought it was, then there remained only some such measure as that of her Majesty's Government. He thought, for instance, that the propo sition of providing retiring pensions and situations, under certain circumstances, under Government, would require to be abandoned. Still, as a whole, he would undoubtedly support the Government, believing their scheme to have been brought forward in an earnest and truthful spirit. When he looked to the present artificial state of society, he could not think that they were alto gether faultless who opposed even this limited measure of education ; he thought that they should, before punishing crime, give the people the means of knowing good from evil. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that he was always very unwilling unnecessarily to occupy the time and attention of the House, but as he concluded that the Hon. Member for Finsbury intended to press his motion to a division, he could not reconcile it to his sense of duty to give a silent vote on that occasion. The motion public money made by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government as an amenamiennta was that they should resolve themselves into a Commit tee of Supply for the purpose of voting 100,000/. of the tihnlattiiaryS.eleeNtneweirnt i b il y. o t f he ed i u i c o a n t . i m on ;mh T er n f e or m F o i t a i s o h n ur m y o vv ve a d s mittee be appointed for the jeurpese of subject, that au inquirynwcias altogether superfluous. The agrfacts were notori m osl e i ns of th at there was a great inade nciYttedefonthaell hands. This m u te c o d a t t i i oFth in en, he presumed, England was a (as censurehad obneehnerhminaj %) • for the purpose of conveying est pressions of dissent from differentYpartnefnirnent—(ex and although he was not preparedtoiay thait" Itouse)-7 limn Committed in this matter, yet it would,clZsi:Tl not the the diffimiltie; which surriiun , f e d the questioNnbel ienrihrs opinion unjust in the extreme to mark.with severit y anything that m ght have -b-en done amiss: He was well aware of the extreme diffiehlty that attended this question, and he felt bound.to say, therefore,. that they should rasher endeavour W.:Notify their olOsions, Chart :.:. ~. ensure what they might discover to he wrong. It was in this spirit that l e should direct his attention - to the matter under discussion ; and on the threshold of this subject the abstract question presented itself, as to whether it was, or was not, the duty of the State to in terfere with the education of the people. He could not hesitate, in discussing this abstract question, at coming to the conclusion that it was not only one among the highest duties of the State, but among the noblest, if not indeed the most noble, functions of the Government, to do everything to extend and diffuse knowleds,e, to elevate the moral, and cultivate the religions feeling of the peop?e committed to its care, and looking at this as a Christian assembly, he could not hesitate to state that the: noblest• and purest system of education for the people was that system of morals which had received the Divine sanction, and which held out to mankind on the one hand a future state of eternal reward, or on the other a state of eternal punishment. But this view of the subject would lead him into considerations which at present he did not intend to enter upon. To pass them from that subject, and to turn from the abstract to the practical question, if it were to be admitted for the pur poses of the debate, that in the abstract it was the duty of the State to promote the education of the people, the real question as a practical one would be, how could that duty he best performed? Now, as was the case with all matters of policy, the practical question must be considered in reference to the varied circumstances in the different pat is of the United Kingdom. The question had been transferred to Scot land by the most able and eloquent Gentleman who re presented the metropolis of that country, and in refer ence to Scotland, it should be remembered that at an early period of its history the happy circumstances oc curred of the one religion being embraced by the entire people, and the education of the country was delegated to the Church. There was here no difficulty, as, when the Presbyterian religion was first introduced in the reign of James 1., and again in the reign of William lIL, edu cation was altogether confided to the national Church, formed part of its social and prac tical system, and received the sanction of the Scottish Parliament first, and afterwards of the Parlia ment of the United Kingdom. The education of the people progressed in strict alliance with the Church as by law established until the late disruption, which he to that day deplored. Religious feelings and secular edu cation went hand in hand, and very many circumstances combined to elevate the people of that portion of the island in history, and enabled the country, notwith standing its natural disadvantages and its poverty, to rise to a level with the highest and most civilised nations in the world.—(blear, hear.) In Ireland, again, the circumstances were exactly different. There the reli gion of the State was the religion of a small minority ; dissent from that religion was the distinguishing fea ture of the great majority in that country. Their religion was not recognised by the State, bat Parliament had granted, year by year, considerable sums of private money, not in alliance with the Church, indeed, but still by this system Dissenters were admitted to partake of benefits in which Churchmen also parti cipated. It was, therefore, consistent both with the practice and policy of the case that the views of the Go vernment should vary with the varied circumstances of the United Kingdom. And now let them turn to Eng land. Here from an early period, unhappily to the latest period, to that very hour, the greatest differences had arisen on the subject of religion, and every class of the community had been bitterly divided on the subject of their religious faith. In that difference of opinion on religious matters had consisted the real difficulty of legislating on the subject of education. The State had encountered violent and uncalled-for interference both from the members of the Church and the supporters of different religious persuasions. Now he felt bound to say that in his own person he had some experience with reference to the attempts of Ministers of the Crown to interfere on this subject,—(Hear, hear, and laughter,)—and he had never been enabled to do as much for education as his zeal would have led him to do. But he had done this at all events; he had navigated the channel, he had sounded all the depths, and he h a d marked the rocks and the shoals which were to be avoided by future Governments.—(llear, hear.) If he had done no more, he had at least done this ; he had shown the Government that succeeded, that which they ought to avoid if they wished to bring forward a measure calculated to extend the education of the people. He thought then, that it was indispensably necessary that the course which had been hitherto pursued should not be persevered in, namely, that an annual vote should be taken, and that from time to time rules and regulations should be determined upon in the deliberations of that House. New, he did not think it altogether superfluous to point out hew occasional assistance ought to be administered with caution, by the State for the education of the people. Under the Government of Lord Grey, a small sum %as asked for the aid of building school-houses. That small sum was, he believed, 20,000/, or 30,0001., to be disposed of under the inspection of the Government; but by other, and after regulations, the distribution of that sum was placed at the disposal of the Committee of Privy Council. Of course, under the circumstances, to which he had adverted, the difference of opinion in matters of religion rendered it exceedingly difficult to give any aid for the purposes of religious and secular education; and, therefore, it was limited to the mere external fabric of the schools. Grants were subse• quently made to two institutions, the one the National Society, immediately connected with the Established Church, and the other, the British and Foreign Society, which had the confidence of a large portion of the Dis senting bodies. Until a recent period, in the year 1839, no resistance was given, except for the single pur pose of building schools, and a further restriction was observed that the schools to be built must be con nected with one or other of those societies. The first relaxation of that rule took place when Lord Melbourne was at the head of the Government, but the order` of Council of 1839 :Jill maintained, as an indispensable con dition that these schools should be connected with one or other of these two societies. The r u l e was a l so maintained that the assistance of Government should only be given for the building of the fabric, except in special cases; these special cases were to be connected with one or other of these two societies. He was not aware that the Government of Lord Melbourne ever en. tertained any more than two or three of these special eases, and they took care that in these cases the requirements should be rigorously executed. He thought that the first time assistence was given, to the amount of 50004, for 1842, to two normal schools in connexion with the two societies, In the year 1843 an annual vote of 1,0001. per annum to the National School, and 750/, to the British and Fo. reign Schools, was substituted in lieu of occasional grants, and arnual contributions were also given in aid of the Normal Schools of Scotland. After this depar ture from the original rules, applications were pressed upon the Committee for annual contributions in aid of maintenance of the members connected with those Schools. When these ewes were to be considered, he felt it his duty to state to the House, that these cases would be sure to be interrupted, and they would be in volved in such a discos-ion as they were now engaged in ; and they would find it necessary altogether to desist from allowing these grants. If it could be shown that the means of education were deficient, and that Parliament determined to give grants to one denomination, then he showed that on the same prin ciple they were bound to extend that provision to all persuasions.—(blear, hear.) A time had now, however, come when they felt it necessary that some assistance should be afforded to the Dissenting bodies in the cause of education, and he was greatly rej:deed that they should, at last, be allowed to receive that assistance which they so well merited by their exertions. But he was bound to say that if they admitted the principle, that assistance should be given to the Dissenting body, the Roman Catholics should also be allowed to parti cipvte in the benefit. The only ground of exclusion which was alleged, was, that they did not use the authorised version of the Scriptures ; but what was the authorised ver.ion of the Roman Catholics It was the bible from which Bossett and Fent lon drew the texts from which they preached, and from which Pascal drew his immortal thoughts. Would it be told them that this version was to be the sole barrier against the admission of Roman Cath lies to the benefits which the State had provided ? Surely Protestant zeal would not go so far as that. The Hon. Member for Southwark had referred to Mr. Landell, he (Sir T. Graham) had long had the honour j of an intimate acquaintance with that gentle man, and he assured the House that his every word "night be depended on implicitly: He was of opinion that an effort should bo made by the I;overntnent in order to ascertain whether terms could not be agreed on by which the Roman Catholics might be enabled to come in for some share of the benefits of Government assistance.—(Hear, hear.) He was bound to say that he could see something like expediency in not doing so on the present occasion, but he did not see any justice in doing so. (Cheers.) The present vote was not a vote of 100,000/. only, it was in addition to the sum authorised to be expended under the-new minutes. By this vote, which might cause an outlay-- which he for one did not grudge—of not less than I,ooo,oool.—some persons had set it down at 2,000,0001. —now, lout , of all this sum the Catholics would not receive one shilling, and the whole subject was to be put off to an indefinite period, when the con sideration of the question would be brought forward by itself, and, he must say, invidiously.—(Cheers.) He thought that the proper time to do justice to his Roman Catholic fellow subjects was the present moment. He should not vote on the present occasion with the Hon. Member for Finsbury, because he thought that-the course taken by Government was justifiable and prudent with this single exception, however, that they ought to have allowed the Roman Catholics to participate in the vote.—(Hear, hoar.) He thought it was infinitely better to proceed by order in Council in the present state of feeling in this country, than to attempt by Act of Parlia ment to establish any uniform system which would not be in accoulaY,ce with the general wishes of the p• ople. The good, however, that might arise from the course pur sued by the Government, he would not purchase at the exptise of what he thought was due to his Roman Ca tholic fellow subjects.—(: fear, hear.) He must, there• fore repeat that he entirely approved of the Government measure, with the single exception he had named, and he really thought it would be averse to all religious li berty and religious toleration if his Roman Catholic fel low subjecta were to be excluded from participating in this plan. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Sir, I own after three nights' debate, I rise very considerably relieved of any apprehension I might have entertained with respect to the course the discussion might have taken. The great objection stated to the front of this measure w, that th e Sts:te ought not to interfere with theas education of th e people, and the various petitions presented to this House on the subject, or at least the greater part of them were declared to be against that princi while the 500 delegates assembled from various Nrcd of the country d ec l are d t h a t ex p e rience has convinced themthat a rule ought to be laid down that 02., Btooshoujci apt u l t er i or . w itu the ecluo4tion of THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 23, 1847. the people, or rather, I believe that the State ought not to educate the people. Well, Sir, what do I find when this measure comes under consideration ? When I in vited the attention of the House simply to discuss this subject, I find the Hon. Gentleman who moved the amendment, who was considered to be the Congrega tionalists, the Baptists, the Dissenters, and Anabaptists, has not in any part of his speech declared in favour of this principle, nor has he in any part of his speech de fended the grounds urged against the state's educating the people. I really thought that before he spoke I was to suffer under the . same sort of indictment which the clerk of Chatham undergoes when he is brought before Jack Cade:—" Here is a fellow whom we have found who pan read and write." Oh, the monster, we found him setting copies to a boy. Oh, the villain."—allear, hear.) I really thought some such charge as that would have been made against us, but after three nights' debate, with the exception of the Hon. Member for Durham, every Hon. Member who has addressed the House has spoken in favour of educa tion by the State. The resolutithr sets forth that it is contrary to the duty of Parliament to provide State education—that this measure is calculated to increase the powers of the Crown—that it would undermine the constitutional functions of Perliament, and interfere with the religious rights of large masses of the people. Looking at the first part of that resolution, I can form no other opinion than it was intended to constitute a censure upon us who have introduced this measure. Yet some of those who mean to vote for the resolution, say they do so only, not because they wished to throw any blame upon the Government, but because they were anxious for inclitry. The Hon. Member for Durham has, however, declared himself strongly against the in terference of the House with the education of the people, and he declared at the end of .his speech, in rather curi ous words, that certain consequences might follow the adoption of this resolution, to the House. That is the Honourable Gentleman's opinion, he argued it, as indeed he always does, with great force and power ; but I must protest against one part of his speech. The Hon. Gentleman said that - with regard to the Church schools we admitted an inspector, who was a clergyman, who inquired into the religious sects and the religious instruction of the pupils; that he had heard we intended to make the same inquiries with regard to Dissenting schools ; but he was convinced no Government dared interfere in that manner with Dissenting schools. Now what has there been in our conduct to induce him to make the imputation against us ? Have I not always taken my part along with others in bringing to au end the religious disabilities which fall upon different sects. The repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts we pro posed and succeeded in carrying against the Govern ment, and we did the same when in Government with regard to many Acts which conferred heavy disabiliti6 upon Dissenters. "think certain sects were obliged to have their marriage solemnised in the Established. Church, but they objected to the terms used in the Church ser vice, which was a hardship upon their consciences, and was carried through both douses of Parliament, a mea sure by which they were freed from such obligations, and they were allowed to conduct their marriages according to the obligations which they could conscien tiously walertake. What right, then, has the lion. Member for Durham to impute to us a wish to interfere with their religious feelings?—(Hear, hear.) There was, however, another ground of opposition which was taken with respect to this measure—taken here, and taken also at the meetings held in the country. It was said at these meetings that the . Government are pre pared to go so far that all distinction between truth and falsehood would be lost, and it was in point of fact repre seated that their principles were latitudinarian. Sir,' that objection was taken to this measure, and it was evi dent at the time that there was preparing a very great opposition to this measure on the part of the Dissenters,. because it was understood s that it would not embrace Roman Catholic schools. In their re solutions these opponents stated that they con sidered it a great hardship and a great injustice, that Roman Catholic schools could now come within the terms of the present mintittes. This was a strong opposition coming from parties who cpposed the May nooth grant. I find amongst those who voted against that measure the name of the Hon. Member for Dur ham, and I cannot understand how the Hon. Gentleman can complain of an omission now which a short time ago he would have considered a grievous error.—(Hear, hear.) But, Sir, I come now to the statement of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Suffolk. The Right Hon. Baronet who last spoke entered into some further explanation of our conduct with regard to this matter. The Hon. Baronet the Member for Suffolk has gone much into detail upon this subject, but he omitted several important passages when he read from the correspondence which took place with the Secretary of the Wesleyans. I must state that that correspondence was unsought by the Government, but was brought about by Lord Ashley. (rhe Noble Lord then pro ceeded to read a passage from the correspondence, in which it was stated that the Council intended to take into consideration a minute for making grants to Roman Catholic schools, which would be brought forward in Parliament after the public had had sufficient time to examine its bearings.) Now, I Say, continued the Noble Lord, that passage entirely frees us from the charge that we have been endeavouring to deceive the Wesleyans, by inducipg them to believe that we had no idea of making grants to Roman Catholic schools. . I think this passage entieely.pues au end to the charge of the Hon. Member opposite, that for the sake of pleasing the Wesleyans the Homan Catholic body was to be overthrown. Now, Sir, the observations of the;ltight Hon. Baronet who l as e addressed the House makes it necessary for me to recall, for some minutes. to the recollection of the House the occurrence of 1839. We proposed at the commencement ~of that year that there should be a model school, and With regard to Roman Catholiceschools it was provided by the minute of the committee of council that the Dousy version of the Bibleenielft be introduced for their use. That part of the proposition excited great apprehension and alarm, and a strong onp , sition was got up through out the country against it. Peeling that a very general resistance would be made to the Tian, it was the opinion of the Government that the only course left them was the one pursued afterwards by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, namely, to withdraw the measure, seeing and feeling, as they did, that it was not likely to meet the approbation of the population of this country. Other minutes were then proposed, to which great ob jections were also made ; ani the principal of these objections was, that the Government had not entirely given up the notion of, at some time or other, reviving those former minutes authorising the use of the Disney version in the schools, and, so tar as I can remember, there was no person more strong in his opposition than the Right Hon. Baronet-the Member for Dorsetshire (Sir J. Graham). Upon that occasion the measure was car ried by a majority of only two. The large minority upon that occasion, it was supposed, did in a great de gree, represent the opinion of the country. A large portion of them were possessed of a dread of seeing the Roman Cat helic schools esteblished under such cosditions. The impression upon my mind was, that however ami able it might he to extend aid to the Roman Catholic schools, that for some yeas to come we should have to make cur choice between aiding all the other schools belonging to the church and to protestant dissenters, and not aiding the Roman Cath o li c sc h ools, or of giving up all hope o assisting education altogether.—(Hear.) My conclusion, and thenoeelusion of these with whom I acted, was that the better.way was to go on giving what aid we could, by the adoption of which course great benefits might be produced, although we could not say that we were satisfied with the terms with respect to the Reman Catholics.— (Laughter.) Teat which excluded the Roman Catholic schools was, that they were to de rive aid in connexion with the schools of the Nationa Society, or those of the British and Foreign Schio Society. It was that regulation which shut out the Ho. ma❑ Catholics in the years 1839, 1840, and which time the Whigs were in office ; and it also shut them out from the years 1841 to 1846, in which period the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) was a member of the Government. It, then, the Right Hon. Baronet was of the same opinions then as he is now, that woulti have been the time to have impressed his opinions upon the minds of his colleagues.—(Cheers.) I think, Sir, that the Right Honourable Baronet bad the ex• cusp which we thought a valid one the ex cuse which we had in the years 1839, 1840, and 1841 —that the opinion of the country was so strong upon those points that ;the whole aid to education would be endangered by bringing in the subject of the Roman Catholic schools. lam happy to hear the eight Hon. Baronet say, with respect to the authorised version, that • the Vulgate used by Pascal and Fenelon was good enough to be recommended by the Committee of Council. I do not know exactly sthat version was used by Pascal and Fen, lon, but the Right Hon. Baronet must be aware that in El:glish schools the Vulgate would be of little service.—(Laughter.) Was it desirable that the Govern. ment should now add that element of conflict to that which they had already had to endure ? Had the Government revived the proposition of 1839 in favour of the Roman Catholic schools we should have been unable to carry the vote' which we now propose.— (Hear, hear.) I say that, in spite of the great liberality shovvnin the debate.—(Hear, hear.) A remarkable instance of the unwillingness of the House to give further aid to the Roman Catholics took place but a few days ago. A- Bill was introduced by my Hon. Friend the. Member for Kinsale (Mr. Watson) relieving the Rotnan Catholics from the penalties to which it appears' to me so - obvious that they should not be subjected to, that I do not know any Hon. Member can make a decent argument against the measure. — (Hear, hear.) Ihe Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel) and the Noble Lord the. Member f or L ynn (L o rd G. Bentinck) and the whole of th e M embers of the G overnment, vote d i n favour of going i nto Committee on the Bill, and notwith standing this the secon d rea di ng o f the Bill was o n l y carried try a majority of 3, and upon -the next stage of the Bill , it was defeated by a majority of 38. If the Government professed that the rule made in 1819 should not be altered in 1846, if we have not time to deliberate upon future minutes to be made, it is not to be said that we have, especially upon this occasion, excluded the Roman Catholics from this grant. My opinion is that we should have failed if we had attempted it now; but it is possible that we may be able to frame minutes, by the terms of which, when Parliament is next upon the snbject, we say asked to gran t, and to those schools, Roman Catholics may be in c l u d e d with ()thus, and where there is a poor populatio n , may (Hear, hear. ) also have the benefit of this grant,— The Government has not con cealed their o pi n i ons we will not f orce Parliament to come to an immediate decision upo n t h e subject, but we do take a favourable view of the education of the Roman Catholic children. I do not agree with the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham), that there is a reason why the Catholics should he included in the present vote. I think it far more likely to succeed if they were included in the next vote, or in another vote upon the subject. And I think the House and the country will agree with the terms upon Sir, expect that this would have been made a subject of which such gr ants will be 'made. I did not, - 0 3 9.2 01 9 1 4 s debtOei I thouglit Oat rulP v-401144 subsisted for many years, might at least have been per mitted to go on for another year, without making it the subject of special comment and accusation.-- (Hear, hear.) Now, that the Honourable Member for Southwark (Sir William Molesworth), spoke ably in avour of a general motion for a grant of money for education, and he wished to carry that motion for aid to the Roman Catholics as a part of this grant, I consider that the framing of any minutes upon this subject re quites great care and consideration. Should they be trained upon the ground of their being entirely Roman Catholic schools for teaching Roman Catholic doctrines, and having Roman Catholic inspection, I am sure if they were so drawn up. a great amount of opposition would be raised to the measure. Should they be framed so as to afford education in the same manner as in the National Schools for Ireland, and aid granted to these schools in the same manner as granted to those schools? I am not quite sure that the Roman Catholic Bishops of this country would approve of a measure brought forward in that shape had it been proposed. lam sure that some Catholics in Ireland, do object to such a system, and have expressed great dissatisfaction with the State education provided for the Irish people. I therefore think, that on those grounds, it was necessary fir us to postpone this question for further consideration, rather than to adopt a plan which might not have given setisfaction. I agree with the Member for Yorkshire and others, that we could not regard any measure as permanent which did not include the Roman Catholics. This, however, was not proposed to he a permanent. measure. In 1839, we introduced a great alteration, in the appointment of inspectors to the schools. The money. lied, up to that time, been voted by the Treasury, and in consequence of the want of any surveillance being exercised, a great deal of it was thrown away. This, however, was remedied by the change which was then introduced. We now propose to change the system as regards pupil monitors, and to im prove the condition of the schoolmasters, so that we can not be supposed to consider this as a permanent or com plete system. I trust that, in the end, we may be able to come to an arrangement by which we shall reconcile the various differences, and lay the foundation of a per manent system.—(Hear, hear.) I trust that, seeing the general, I may almost say the universal, opinion that has been expressed as to the State providing the means of education for the people, we shall be able to bring in a Bill that will have the support of the country, and or bath Houses of Parliament. The opinions, however, which I have heard expressed, confirms me in the opinion I entertain as to the propriety of the course the Government have pursued on the present occasion. Had we brought in a measure, and asked for a much larger grant than now proposed, they would have put it out of the power of the other House of Parliament, when it came to consider it, to make any change in the measure. This was the course adopted in the case of the Isilaynooth grant. My own opinion is, that the state of education and of opinion is not sufficiently ripe for such a proceeding. When, however, the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite proposed the Bill, I supported hite. on that occasion. Bat those questions cannot be dis posed of without consideration. They require delibe• ration, ripening, and discussion, both in this House and the country before they' can be brought to a satisfactory . termination. I remember that with regar d t o t h e ques tion of the establishment of the Small Debts County 'courts Bill that measure was taken up time after time by successive Governments, and was introduced in 1824 and 1825 ; it was not till 1846 that it was passed, and a was only last month it came into actual operation. Whet such difficulties. then, accompany the settlement of n question in which there are no prejudices at work, and in which no great variety of opinion can exist, it is nee too much to expect that on a question of this nature, in which men's feelings are so deeply interested, and which involves such diversity of opinions, that there should be some delay in arriving at a satisfactory arrangement. I think the course we have anopted has tended to bring out many opinions that will assist in effecting this arrange ment, and has shown that this House is not unfavour• able to the extension of education; and with regard to many points on which considerable doubt and difficult) rested, this debate has enabled us to arrive at something like a clear and satisfactory decision. For instance, with regard to the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Bath, that we should provide an education for the people entirely secular, it is so entirely against the opinions of this, and we may predict a future Par liament, that the chance of success from such a ineastne is no longer questionable; and I do not think that the future Ministers who are to be the successors of the present Government, and to exceed them in liberality. are likely to have a long tenure of power, if schools entirely secular are to be established by the State.—(Hear, hear.) With • regard to the other points, there has been so much unanimity expressed, and so much support—handsome and generous support—given to the proposition of the Government by the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool, the Member for Hertford, and others, that I will only conclude by thanking them and the House for the reception that has been given to this pro posal, and I trust we shell not tie disappointed in the hopes we have formed of it.—(The Noble Lord resume his seat emity loud cheers.) Colonel SII3THORP said that when he recollected how he had been deceived by former Governments on questions of re ligion, he was cautious in placing much confidence in any Government. The Noble Lord said this was not to •be a permanent measure—he thought so too. He thought this was like other measures which had been lately brought before them, and the experience of the past induced him to be very careful in assenting to what he could not but consider as a snare and a trap, to cover some ulterior design.— ( Laughter.) " Timeo Danaos et dona ferenies."—( Laughter. ) He wished to see the people educated, as far as they posAbty could be, but he certainly would not agree to any further grants ; and if the Hon. Member would ,move the repeal of the Act of 1839, he would cheerfully second the motion. Sir ROBERT PEEL—Sir, although I feel it wholly un necessary to add anything to the argument by which the motion of the Noble Lord has been supported, yet I should be unwilling to permit this House to proceed to a division, without shortly stating the grounds upon which my concurrence will be given to that motion. Considering the position which for five years I held in the councils of the Crown —considering the con nexion I had with the appropriation of the educational vote, during that period as a Member of the Committee of the Council—considering theopposition which the Government has had to encounter in proposing the measure, the main outline and principles of which I cordially approve of, I think on account of that opposition it is incumbent upon me not to shrink from taking my full share in any unpopularity which may attach to the support of this measure.—( Hear, hear. ) Sir, I am:perfectly willing to admit that these are considerations connected with this measure which I think are deserving of mature attention. In 1839, I fully shared in the objections that were urged to proceeding by a single vote of this House in reference to a matter of so great importance as a scheme of general education, imperfect though I admit it to have been. I still think those assertions were based upon a sound "foundation, as I consider it would have been a great advantage to adhere to the ordinary course of submitting to the deliberate judgment of the House the regulations by which the education of the people is proposed to be carried out.— ( Hear.) I think it is an evil to exclude the House of Lords from an opportunity of a full consideration of this subject— (Cheers)—of leaving to the House no alternative but a com • plete acquiescence or a peremptory rejection of the mea<ure.— ( Hear.) But, Sir, with my view of the immense importance of making some progress in the mitigation of the monstrous evils which attend a neglect of public instruction—(Hear)— forseeing the probable consequences of insisting on the opinion which 1 gave in 1839 of refusing assent to any measure cones fleeted with education, unless it had the Legislative . sanction of both Houses of Parliament in the shape o" an Act of Parliament. I will not now incur the risk of fur. they delay, by insisting on the objections which I urged in 1839. I feel that I could not, with propriety now insist upon those objections. For the six years which have elapsed since 1839, there has not only been an acquiescence on my part, (Hear.) In 18 42, when the late G overnment assumed p ower, n b n u n t t a r n n l nf acquiescence the gr. n o t n s tihne the pa r tof h ari dtsh of e t House, hep in Privy vy placing Council. t the the vote to the Privy Council did not exceed 30,0001. It was 7bsy,Crownoo u p th e a r t a n t n h that v . o t e siv w e a , s n i h n a c r r g e e a d s e withto the responsibility of the Government , and baying the suppoit of a great majority of this House, did not think that Parliament wou ld have acquiesced in 1840 and 1841, after o th oo e l. advice an t of then the to 100 the debate of 1839, and after a majority of the House had declared their opinion in favour of the proceed ings by vote, seeing that Parliament thought that arrange ment had been made between Government and the heads of the Church, and that in 1840 and 1811 there was no disposition to renew the discussion of 1839; I say, considering these things, and the increase of the vote, by the advice of the Crown to Parliament, from 30,0001. to 100,0001. and more, without re quiring any alteration in the channel through which it was ad ministered, I think I should be utt er ly unwort h y if I now, i n b n l .y t s o o t oßi some e lui ber ratherrfe udl l respects ysi nt impressed,he im eau p l e Bb r 4y f 2 e c ?a t vote t i m g e e h ol t ify o ,bt proposingfhs o t er r UHacntot that we wl a epoßpf shouldl whichui c t at i tat proceed r , wonaeconetoedhadi ought 1847, attempted to throw any i m p e di men t i n th e way w hi ch Have we not had an attempt to proceed by Bill with reference to the education of the people ?—( Hear.) And what was the result ? When my Right Hon. Friend the late Secretary of State for the Home Department attempted to introduce a mea sure with respect to the education of factory children, and in- curred the obloquy with which he was assailed—obloquy to which he exposed himself, because he was actuated by a deep sense of public duty—he considered that he should mitigate the opposition that existed by proceeJing by a legislative enact ment. He did not proceed by vote. nor did he propose to place any authority in the Privy Council, We made an attempt to introduce further facilities with respect to the education of the people, but we met with no greater en couragement in respect to that Bill than the Noble Lord in proceeding by a vote of the House of Commons, and my Right Honourable Friend was compelled to abandon the project ; and I regret that it was necessary to abandon that attempt, because it was made with the view of uniting all parties desiring some scheme, by which, without impolitic con cessions, great facilities might be given to the education of the people. Now then, in 1547, seeing the failure of attempting to proceed by legislation, seeing the evidence that there is, even with 100,000/., no sufficient, no adequate pro- ' vision for the education of the people—moral, intel lectual, and religious, I am ready to consent to any measure, which, without violating the conscientious scruples of any class of Christians, affords some remedy for those monstrous evils which exist from the want of education.— (Cheers.) Sir, in the course of this debate, there has been much able argument with respect to the authority and duty of the State to interfere with the education of the people. Sir, in the course of the debate, certainly there has been but faint denial of that—( Hear, hear)—and I should apprehend that on the part of that great body of her Majesty's subjects who dissent from the doctrines of the Established Church, there is no dis- position to deny the importance of education, or to deny the right and duty of the State to promote that education by every means in its power.—( Hear.) I apprehend that the chief objection of the Non-conforming body to this pro ceeding on the part of her Majesty's Government, is not so much a denial of the right of the State to promote education, as a doubt whether or no the measure proposed is really calcu lated to promote that end. That the Nonconforming body, at least, if they are consistent with their doctrines on the subject --(Hear, hear)—only object to it on the ground that the vo luntary principle is better calculated to promote education, than any interference on the part of the State. And, Sir, if I could believe that assumption—if I could believe that non-interference on the part of the State was calculated to facilitate education more than such interference, I should at once admit, that in this country, in which such difference of opinion in religious subjects prevails—l should, I repeat, at once admit that, whatever might be the right of the S'ate, it was not desirable that any such interference should take place.—( Hear.) But I think the evidence is conclusive that the voluntaryprinciple has failed to mitigate the evil; which arise - from a want of qdues. .tion.—(Cheers.) Sir, I believe, if we could know the real extent of this evil—if we could have presented to us a full account of all the crime which has been generated by igno rance—if we could know what really has taken place within the last fifty years—if we could know how much evil the ex ample'of the parent has introduced—how his example has in troduced infection into the character of his children—if we could know how much of violence,' how much of rapine and crime against life and property have been eaused by a dearth of education—if we could know how many souls have been intro duced into the presence of their Creator and Judge, ignorant of the character, use, and principles of Christianity—l think we should be disposed to shudder at our neglect, and to repair, without delay, the evils of past legislation. —(Loud cheers.) Sir, I look to the volume of evidence which has been pre sented for the last few years. I hold in my hand one of those volumes, the reports of the Commissioners who were ap pointed to inquire into the state of education of the children employed in the several mining districts of the kingdom. A single report refers to the education of the children in Flint shire and Denbighshire, Lancaster, Staffordshire, Durham, North Wales, and South Wales. The evidence had been ccllected from men of the highest acquirements, and of the most superior attaintainments, and they uniformly come to the same conclusion, that there was complete degradation in many parts of the country, on account of the neglect of education. I believe that we are little aware of the extent to which ignorance prevails.—(Hear, hear.) We See returns of the number of children educated, but we rarely inquire what is the real state of the question. We may be told that there are from about four or five hundred thousand children, of whom three hundred thousand are educated, and two hundred thou-- sand are not. This is a suf f iciently painful reflection. But if we are really acquainted with the education which the three hundred thousand receive, our reflections would be still more painful. I have not come to a conclusion on this subject without having maturely weighed the amount of evidence on both sides of the question, and although I kr ow that any re ference to these documents is not very palatable to the House, yet they are far more important than any speculative arguments which I could adduce. I will take an important case with respect to Oldham, in Lancaster, 'and I find in the evidence of the curate of the church of St. James's, in Oldham, this testimony, which he gives in reference to the state of the educated classes in the district. And now, considering whether it be safe to trust to the voluntary principle for the education of the poor, and for the arguments of those who say that the rule of the State ought to be non interference. Let us listen to what thin gen tleman says, speaking of the district of St. James :—" There is ' in this district no public day-school whatever; I have made several attempts to establish one. I have even sought assistance from the National Society. A good building has been erected, and two smaller ones—one for infants, and another for more advanced scholars. An attendance of scholars can be got, but no money to pay a master. This state of things has been endured four years—three masters have successively tried to maintain a school here, bat without avail." Now, here was a distract which up to the present hour contained no pub is day-school whatever, it was quite true that there were Sunday schools. The parents had no objections to these as they did not inter fere with the working of the children, and because the chil dren attending these schools were returned as educated. But what is the opinion of this gentleman on this education? He says—" It is obvious that schools composed thus must be imperfect in the extreme — as schools they do harm, by lowering the opinion of the people of the value of secular instruction, and teaching then to be satisfied with a quantity with which they ought not." 1 hey had no day schools, none of the habits engendered in schools; and the clergyman thinks mere attendance, without any prepare -don for it, does more harm thin good ; and yet these are the persons who are returned as educated. They had it in evi dence that. these Sunday schools were an imperfect instrument for education ; that they did more harm than good, and that for secular education they were worse than useless. The evidence 'of the boys themselves was worth attention. One of them, fifteen years of age, says, " I have been at a Sunday school for, five or six years and I have not learnt to read more, than my letters." He went to a Sunday-school for five or six years, and he did not know how to read his own language—lie did not know how .to read or write. A day school could not be established; those parties who would send their children to them were not willing to pay for them.. Is not -this a proof that the voluntary principle could not be relied upon?-(Hear, hear.) What was now proposed ? To elevate the character of the schoOlmaster; to exalt his position in the scale of society, and to give him encouragement to advance himself. As to the patronage gained by the Go. vernment, it was an objection so futile that it ought not to have been advanced in the House.—( Hear, hear.) But the most important tendency of the measure was to raise the character of the schoolmaster. At present, as soon as they had a competent schoolonster, as soon as he had proved him self capable to discharge the duties of such an office, tempta tions were held out to him to leave his situation, and to enter other employments, which would lead to more certain pro motion. - How then can you succeed, unless you teach him that the office is an honourable one, and unless you hold out to him some prospect that when he will be incapacitated, that the State will not neglect him, but reward him for his faithful services. Sir, that part of these minutes, which has a tendency to improve the condition of the schoolmaster is one to which I give my hearty concurrence.— ( Hear, hear.) I regret the opposition of the Nonconformist bodies to this measure, I have shown my attachment to the Dissenters on many occasions. I have supported many Bills which had their relief for an object: and, notwithstanding, my attachment for the Established Church of this country, I should be sorry to gain any covert advantage at the expense of another church—and, if I thought it unjust to the Dissenters I would not support it—it is impossible to forget the services which they had rendered to education, even when the English Church had neglected it.—( Hear.) It is impossible to forget the services and the example shown by the Non -conformist. But having considered the objections of the Dissenting body, Ido not believe they are founded in justice. I think that the principle of the aid proposed to be given is perfectly fair, and that these minutes in fact adopt the voluntary principle.— ( Hear, hear.) This is no Sate interference in the ordi nary sense. The minutes can only he set in force through the interference of the voluntary. principle. Volun tary provision for the salary of the schoolmaster is essential before the aid of the State can be obtained, and it is open to the Dissenter to take advantage of it as well as to the mem 'berg of the Estabiished Church. The Dissenters who now complain of the partiality and injustice of these minutes ought to recollect what would have been the opposition they would have met with on the part of the Established Church if thq had been proposed ten. years since. —(Hear.) Being then deeply impressed with the impartiality, and the perfect equality of these minutes towards the Dissenters, I cannot but give them my support. The Cilurch are not seeking any. direct advantage in consequence of these minutes. It is said the Church receives some eighteen-twentieths of that aid at this moment. Do they receive it on account of the superior numbers of the members of the Establishment ? If they, do, can it be more justly given ? If it is not on account of their numbers, but on account of their zeal and liberality in the cause of education, do not that superior zeal andliberality also constitute a claim to increased assistance? Try it on what principle you will, you can urge no objection to this mode on account of the supposed advantage which will be gained by the Church. There is no denying that the Church is powerful, and I rejoice that it is so.—( Hear, hear.) I think that the power of the Church is increasing; and why is it in creasing? My firni belief is that the power of the Church is increasing from its hold over the affections of the people of this country. It is becoming strengthened because it is becoming more awakened to the amount of duty it has to perform. My firm belief is that the Church has acquired a hold, an increased hold, on the respect and veneration of the people of this country by its willingness to make a timely and salutary reform, and by its readiness to consentto a reduction of the superfluous emolu ments of the higher orders of the Church dignitaries, in order to devote those emoluments to afford increased accommodation and means to the spiritual charge of the people by its superior members. It is my opinion that the conduct of the Church in that respect has greatly increased its power—and it is a legi timate source of power. It is not the Government grants that are giving the Church an increased influence. That is a com plete mistake; the Church would be just as powerful without this aid. In what way does that 'aid increase the power of the Church -in any district where the Church population is more numerous than any other sect ? It is the Church's power over the affections of the people. I say it not invidiously with re gard to the Dissenters, because I give to the Dissenters the full credit which is due to them—they are actuated by the same spirit, of which all religious opinions are beginning to perceive the necessity. The influence of the Church has been increased by the conduct of the t hurah, and it will continue to be so. Give or withhold this pecuniary, aid by the Government to the Church, and its legitimate sources of influence over tha popu lation will not be diminished ; and I rejoice that it is so, as the principle is oue of fairness. On these grounds I shall give my support to the motion of the Noble Lord, and shall not vote for the motion or amendment of the Hon. Member. I think that we have had abundant time. I think that the facts are well be fore us, if we will but resort to the evidence of which we are in possession. The institutions of this country are not capacious enough, as they at present exist, to provide for the education of the countless millions which are engaged in varied pursuits. Sir, in the course of this discussion, a question of great im. nortance has arisen with regard to the condition of other sub. jects of her Majesty other than those who are members of the Established Church, or those whom we usually call Dissenters —I speak of the Roman Catholics. Sir, lam of opinion that no system of general education, even in England would be ad mitted as a conclusive, or comprehensive one, which excluded the Roman Catholics from its.operation.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord says there is no alteration in the principle of the minute of 1839. In that respect I beg to differ from my No ble Friend ; I think we are about—practically at least—to make a difference, a material difference, in the principle upon which we have begun these minutes. You are about to admit . . _ . to the participation - of the advantages of this grant the members of the dissenting body, which certainly has hitherto been ex. eluded. Hitherto the Wesleyan body—practically at least—has not had any participation in this vote. They were not in connexion ' with the British and Foreign School Society, and therefore that rule which excluded from participation in the advantage of the Parliatnen.ary vote, any society not in connexion pith the . National SoCiety, or the British and Foreign Schools Society—:excluded the Wesleyans from any pecuniary advantage from it. - You are about to alter the principle of these minutes in that respect. You have given an assurance to the Wesleyans, that this rule, which has hitherto prevailed, shall not be obligatory —and that these schools, whether or not in connexion with either of the parent societies, shall be entitled to aid, and that authoriries of the Wesleyan body shall be consulted in respect of the inspection of these schools. So far as the position of the Roman Catholic is concerned, what is the material difference ? There is a material difference in point of principle as well as of advantage. You are going to widen and spread over with the public bounty an unusual space, and the more wide that space is the more marked will be the exclusion.— (Hear, hear.) Therefore I think that the time has come—and I am the more anxious to avow my opinion, as an an avowal of opinion in this respect may be unpopular— (Hear, hear)—the time has come when Justice and good policy call from you a matuce consideration of the positron of the Roman Catholic. Take the case now of the Roman Catholics of Manchester and of Liverpool, or in many other places. Now let us deliberate upon this question without insisting upon the alteration of the minute— or inquiring into the meaning of particular terms, or whether the word " Scripture," is meant to signify "authorised version," or whether the Roman Catholics are excluded from this grant in consequence of their not being in connexion either with the National Society or with the British and Foreign School Society—let us neglect these, and instead of them, see that we are about to adopt—l will not say—a permanent system, but an extended system, on which we are about to act , and let ns consider whether or no we can exclude on an y ground or pretence, if we can continue the exclusion, f the R o man Catholics ; it would perhaps be expe di ent as e Hon. e Friend said, to postpone the consideration o f the question ni- for some months, but lam not bound or inclined upon that account to force or precipitate the adoption of any measure, and I will admit that it requires some consideration • but I am not disposed that there s h a ll be any doubt as to the opinion which I entertain.—(Loudcheers. ) Let us take the population of Ma nc h ester. There is a particular district in Manchester called ‘‘lrish To wn ," so great i s t h e number of that pe o pl e residin g th ere, and lam told that there , are not less than sixty-. thousand or seventy thousand Irish people inhabiting it. They are a class of pe o pl e th a t come over there, and who, by their industry and good conduct. They come over to the wealthy manufactures of Manchester, to live there and give the advantage of their labou r. T hey have no natural pro tit.etora—titer. Ten Bo wealthy Roman Catholic eonuelted ! T! . / with Manchester to have regard to their spiritual coneerrs. And of that body there is no one there probably who posses sed the means of superintending the education of 60, 000 or 70: ° of the inhabitants of the poorer classes. How is that e ducation to be provided for them ? The priests no doubt would attend to them, but I arehend that the means of the pr iest to pro' vide a system of education are-most limited. Is it to the ad vantage of the State that the children of 60,000 or 70, - 0 0 ° should be brought up in ignorance? 'confess that I cannot coc• ceive amore urgent case; and not only so far as the intenecto advantage of the Roman Catholics issconcsrnee ; but it. it 11 only for the truth of the prnciple yen have broug ht forwer against barbarism, or on account of' the crime and degradation • of character which is caused by ignOrance—if it b e for ha' principle which you have all agreed to, those childre n ought not to be brought up in misery and ignorance, which could only lead to aim!: As a question of policy and justic,., I maintain that you reign: to make some provision for the education of the rising gen e ration. The schools of the Roman Catholics, in large town!! at present, are very imperfectly supported, and, therefore. it important that ti:eir case should be taken into consideratioti. It was more likely that such a course—the granting- sums of money to maintain their schools—would soften their feeliir and reconcile them to the truths of Protestantism , tha n I , acting in an intolerant and exclusive spirit.—( This was a much mine advisable course than to leave 1 he.r isu t f i r , p . er generation in a state f serpetual ignorance. 3ly silo-ion is that cotisiderahle advantage will result by arrarignig that the children of all shall have the benefit of a secular etT' Cation. On this head I must state, that I listened to toe Hear, he!r•,/, speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Horse Seerftell. with the greatest satisfaction—a sp ech which holds out gre.aet pea of a settlement of the question in a manner to Wet!. wishes which the House has expressed. I know that tbeett; Lion is most difficult, and I think that it is wise to proceed s l;_ caution ; still I think that some means should be take n ]: providing for the education of the children of Roman W I , l . cs. I think there is a prospect of passing this measure, av understand, from a declaration of the G o vernment that We man upon an early consideration of the claims of the Role Ca holies. That being the case I shall not be in Aired the risk, of urging, at this time, the Government ar once tooprii pose a scheme of Roman Catholic education. But I d p all , upon them not to accept the support of any body to the preser; minutes, holding it as a principle that the Roman CA 6I d are 'to be excluded. There ought to be no ex elusion. L". t cheers.) If there is the probability of an early election, I may, be important that there should be no mistmoesetandings ( Loud cheers.) If the 'Government recognise the pri g which Imoderstand them to recognise, arid fairly - afew, s t ss s recognition, then they give fair notice to all parties', t“_, although there may be some delay in the preparation (7_ additional minutes, yet the principle is reimposed must not take one class of Christians and of he panes jesty's subjects, and doom them to perpetual ignerseeict upon account of their religious opinions. I would. en t !". tt men of all religious denominations to consider has been the cause of delay in the promotion of edit, as It has arisen originally from a belief that instruction -‘!'",," dangerous to the institutions; of the country. That i m preslt °- passed away, it was succeeded by great indifferenee. -- 1; that 11 oifference • from w hich the Dissenting body was the et a . f be awakened, and set the example of activity in the can' education. They were followed by others, and there tee% of late years been great activity and great zeal exhibPo We are all admitting the importance of education; llns are preventing its progrsss because they are afraid that r;.: other body would interfere with their religious o P in roe Thus, Dissenters object one day that the educat ion ° The church does not recognise the claims of Dissenters. it, Church again oli•cts that the Dissenters do not recognisessn claims. Whilst this is going on, what is becoming of the v o liw or children born everyday, of the 300,000 added ye arly t° population ? Whilst we are fighting and squabbling epos tbe , e points of difference, we are neglecting that co vi n si. ought in all Christian lands to be a subject of deep deration, viz., -the enlightenment of the people in Chr„ re , principles—the improvement of their intellectual euilis and their instruction in secular knowledge. I bel ieve , ious true charity, true policy, and true regard for e el . F„ :% truth, ought to encourage us to lay aside our differ to contemplate the magnitude of the present eviol,vean:saiisd teach the children of all sects the great truths or ,7 6 ps tianity.( Cheers.) lam for a ,Teligious educationlitimoo posed to a secular education.—( Hear, hear.) ' the difficulties of the case. Yet still I think that some ext,i s st ment should be made by which the children of all.ctsrl".Zst be made to participate in the benefits of the grant. Ido not believe that a purely secular educatioun, ,do be acceptable to the people of this, country, - or tact believe a religious one to be at the least as IpPritrels:''' as secular education; and I believe it to be for the in,. j ,, s • of the country. I believe, it to be for the intereits4.o,s";es Protestant religion which shrinks not from the light , , nn jos id rejoices in the spread of knowledge, that the peol,l_,tellie not be left in a state of ignorance; but, by, receiving lecc,i6o tual culture, their minds should be prepared for the re A in , of those great truths which, in the first ins:once, dation of all religion, and more especially of that , which relies more than any other on self-judgment 31 7_ the lectual culture, which courts inquiry, and is, then M e n t on more likely to recommend itself to a wise and peciple.—( Loud and continued cheering). is thereliaion_. i° dim' Mr. PLUMPTRE was anxious to say a fess words, _ t fife. sequence of the debate that evening. Wherein did the culty consist? Was it that the people of England th e re a n ignorant people ? No ; but they were a Protestant Pe sss r i s and therefore it was that there were objections to the propos_so, tions which were made by the Government. The pror might be expediency, but it was not Christianity. The pe?l d placed no dependence o n their leaders on either II .r i of the House, and he thou g ht that they would at the prop!o opportunity, choose g ood and faithful representatives, on • would truly consult their religious feelings and act upon then' Mr. NEWDE GATE, who rose amidst the utmost WI.: fusion, was understood to ask Lord John Russell wbetber was was the intention of her Majesty's Government to submit ents al future minutes of the council, with respect to the adints,l" ° Catholics to a participation in the gra n t s o f the Gover ous to the House ? Lord J RUSSELL—Of course, on future minut es be lu' t ask the opinion of Parliament. • The House then divided, when there a ppeared For the grant... ......... 372 Against it ......................................... ....... 47 Majority fo r :he Governtsset ......... —3:s_ QUAKERS' AND JEWS' MARRIAGE BILL. This Bull went through Committee. r and The remaining orders of the day vvdre then dispose . the House adjourned at One o'clock _RAILWAY SHARE MARKETS' • LIVERPOOL, APRIL 22. .-.-, STOCK EXCIIANon-The sales are -Anther,gate , i s i .c6t .. ti ld .. ,am, Boson, and Eastern Junction, 3/4 a nd ..ancashire, and Cheshire Juion, ds-13irminglmni , Oxiord Junction, 8% p. -Cheaterwl Birkenhead, 4-!!/13.3. Ea:l Lancashire, New (scrip), % p.-Edinburgh and Ws Lo don g1w,72-Liverpoul, Crosby, and Southpott, 1% P. --- n n itto, ~ dis.-Birkenue..-, and North-Western, 172%-Ditto, Quarters, 15% IN - ': , New Quarters, 10 p.- London and Manchester ends,l34lll,T,ve, ham, Quarters (A), 5% p.-Manchester and L Illan, 8% p.-Ditto, 321. Shares (late .Extension), 1 1 4 ,P' -ma t chester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire, Quarters, chaster and Southampton, '3 dis.-Midlind, 116-- Shares, 3% p.-Ditto, New, 2% p.-North StaffordshirF, !..411,e4-, p.-North- Western, 335. 9d. dis.-Preston and Wyre,Sl%`...,'d 5% -Shrewsbury and Hereford, 1% dis.-Shrewsbur,y utlip, Chester, (late N. W. M.), 6 1 4 p.-Ditto, New, par--f , York Eastern and Dover, No. 2, 9,1 p.-Ditto, No, 4, 1 / 1 3 P; ( 1 dis. and Newcastle, Preference, 3% p.-Ea-t Indian, Is. b • MANCHESTER, APRIL 22, L a nce STOCK EXCHANGE.-The sales are-Birkenhead, _ e 0. shire, and Cheshire Junction, 3A__East a ast& e (scrip),(lat....... and P.), par-Ditto, New, p 1% " I.); to-, 4:0.1; ar-Vitto, New 3...... i 6 Gr B eat Fleetwood, Preston, and West Riding Jodi"? ^ •l i „ a awl Northern, %-Huddersfield and Alancbestcr Rat .' X u _ .e... .. Canal, 1% c.-Liverpool, Manche,ter, and Nesse:title...l .!.11.. tion, 1%-Manchester and Leeds, 321. Shares (late 1% 2 '4 . ' 1 6 sion), 1%-Ditt , ., Fifths (late West Biding Union) , :, 0. .2, --Manchester, Shetlield,'-and Lincolnshire, Quarters, '-`,;30.. 21 1 4 7 -Ditto (Sheffield and Lincolnshire), 2 11-16---'3.; ~.e _ chester and Southampton, 19s. 6d.-North Stafford lr,0"_: 2 1-16-North-Western, 2-Oldham Alliance, 14 -So . P ..... shire Union, 157A -South-Eastern and Dover, No. 4, 1-16 l'• South Yorkshire, Do ncaster, and Goole, 1 4 c. LEEDS, Anat. 22. STOCK EXCHANGE. --The sales are-Ambergate, Nott l . l . l : • ham, and Boston, 163. dis,,-East Lancashire, New, Is. 3a,,, 1 ;. -Ditto, New Scrip, Cs. p.-East and West Yorkshire, sAvild 6d. dis.-Htulderstield and Manchester, 7s. 6d. p.--ertejs e l l : I :s e !d t ' i : ). l.l_ir: L ic o , ni t ii d , is o .- xt ti d tt , o, a N nd e w e Dewsbury, New Extensions, Scrip (pink), Is- dis• co, Di. to:h 2 : ; l : tree d ns i th s a ._-D dil i t t isg t s o . , ldj i : ni_s. r l e o. ...... i ne e s :.: , :::: l ; p.-;Midland, Preference, 2% P E s er and Leeds, Fifths, 4% p -Ditto, 321. Shares tip. tensions),x lffs. 6d. p.- p.-Ditto, , Thi p rt, DiOtts;:.:,. orth British,.ll.!"carh3l. North Staffordshire, 21. 3s 6d xtension (scrip), - 10 -, . i j u iont Branch), 1 li. p.-Ditto, Quarters (i s a l ' 6d , p! EXCHANG J E S . 3 :-The sal p e ' s - ar N el l: 2% dis.-North-We-tern • • ,375,. dis. .. . SHEFFIELD " • STOCK , APRIL 22. Notting' ham, and Boston S Ridnig Union, c l4 A s. s p rix colnshire (Grimsby and ~,_ Manchester, Shet"eititto, 2el• Shares, 2% dis.-Dittheffield), 6% dis.- . ...west liii:OslsTaieTs LAhmerbleCrgia:,tie3an d iiio.. o, 121. 10s. Shares, 355. tbs. CHANGE.-T STOCK Ex - a , YN ar E eL A E F aste rn22C _ c l tin lir t: e - d s st York Ex • Extensions, J/4 dis.-Fleet Riding, wood, Preston, SW m e i , bC 16/ , _ g, 15s. dis.-Manchester, Great Grimsby, and S '' 7% . di5.-Ditto, Extension, 48s. dis,-Newcastle and e t illrie -11%-Newcastle and Berwick, New, 2 7-16 p.-Nor,,dia fish, Thirds,. 425.-Ditto, Quarters, 1 1 4 p.-W est 111 Union, 15s. p.• EDINBURGH, APRIL 21. -,zeif , STOCK EXCHANGE. -The sales are-Caledonian, t 7., ti . -13 s. 61-Dundee and Perth, New, 19 %-East Lothian u e b, tral, 525. 6d. -Edinburgh and 13athgate, 71. ls.-Edinbark,d Leith, and Granton, Quarters, 13s. 3tl. -Edinburgh ii!,:h Northern, New, 723.-Ditto, Newport, 71. 0.-Edna/110, and Perth; ' 533. -Ditto, Halves, 195.-Great Northern , ice ,,, 6d.-North British, 3214-Ditto, Quarters, 69g. 6d. 'l i t. .., New. Quarters (scrip) , 235.. 6d.-Ditto, Thirds, 61s ; ice , Scottish Central, 25 %--Shrewsbury,Oswestry, and Che'' .. l o y New, 21S. 6d.-Stirling and Midland, 455.-Direct 1304_03, and Madras, 35. East Indian, 31.-Great North of In GLASGOW, APRIL '2l. 35 . 3d.-''' STOCK EXCHANGE.-Tho sales are-East Indian,aissgofit East Lothian Central, 515. 6J. -Edinburgh .and„ o , 6d.-- - Halves, 19/. -Edinburgh and Perth ( nit £0 No. 2t Glasgow, Kilmarnock, and Ayr, 581,4--7 Ditto, Wu_ sou thern 6 3 / Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle 5 14--Grea,l .5.....L00. of Madrals Is. 6d _Kilmarnock and Ayr Direct, ii 4 t, 1 ~.... don and Brighton,_ 52 1 4 --Madras, Nellore, and Ar ii.ll d, c°ll3lces ,,' Manchester and- Sauthampton, 223. 6d.--"--40,....5e0t1i5- 4 1 4-North British, Nev Quarters (scrip), 4 -'• Central, 25 1 4-York and Newcastle, Oh. _ . ------ BUR7IIB. eov, of On the 22d inst., the wife of G. Robins, Es(l-9 stir— Be Morthstreet, Covent-garden, of a daughter. Co O lo i n i e t i h i e L li t t . ti o i s n b s o t r . n , aotfGthleoubceesnteri, Army lady of Lieuteo4llt- On the 18th inst., at Wayertree, near Liverpo9l, xrs* Laker, of a son al inly, or a claughl.......ter'. T. MA RRIED. OA the 22d inst., at Axbridge, Somerset, by the Bev' G o i qr, Lon the Rector, Herbert Adolphus ' lced ' " ill" + W er alwortb, don, to Maria Harriet Vesie, youngest daub . of Robert Parker, Eq., of the former Plac e ' Oa the MI inst at t he B ritish E b. ~in as r lite r Henry B . ruxner, Esq., to Emily Ueorgiana, second clang of Robert C I att.ey. Esq. , th in to Hester, to On the 21st inst., Edward Gardner, Esq. , daughter of the late Mr. G. Harrison, Barton-court, Vover. sy St. Petersburght DIED. d 86. On the 16th inst., JohnLeech,Esq ,of Lea, Surrey , se - i t, or , On the 18th inst, in New road, Gower- street Amelia Mary, youngest daughter of Captain J. Chiosso..,:.. On the 19th inst., at Rottin dean, near Briglaton PA 't 7 " Margaret Parry Thomas. g ' • Barnett lAlle On the 19th inst., in Cavendish -square, litirrie ~t., Christine, youngest daughter of Sir James Ilawkins WO. shed, Bart.. G.C.8., Admiral of the Fleet. 0;1 the 19th inst., Louisa Elizabeth, the w ife of Joh n An dreWs, Esq , surgeon, of Salisbury. lou; Printed L.n42 PUbnsmeti tiy AIL iLl)0 00.1.4(ce. 24 , 1 : 2, a o ct Lon. Strand, Printer, M e 011 ice, N 0.112, .• : '.03,n .. .„,,40 110 . 6 1 4 .14 of the' 521 , 051 the Comity of kid-4104mi allFww 1847, •,;~ 4 ._.~~ ;fir I