The Sun. — London, England, 1847-06-05 00:00:00

: - I IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT HOUSE OF LORDS. June 4. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack at Five o'clock. REPRESENTATIVE PEERS OF SCOTLAND. Lord KINNAIRD presented the report of the Select Committee on the election of Representative Peers for Scotland, which was ordered to lie on the table. CLERGY OFFENCES BILL. The Bishop of OXFORD presented a petition from the city of Oxford in favour of this Bill ; also several other petitions to the same effect from clergy men and others in the counties of Oxford and Wilts. The Bishop of EXETER was as desirous as any that an effectual measure should be passed, and so were the clergy in his diocese ; still they considered the present Bill to meet the desired end was objectionable in many of its provisions. He trusted it would be remedied in the Committee up stairs. PROSTITUTION. The Bishop of OXFORD presented a petition, signed by the clergy and churchwardens of Cambridge, praying their Lordships would introduce a measure to facilitate the punishment of prostitution. BIRMINGHAM AND OXFORD JUNCTION RAILWAY. The Duke of RICHMOND movecia S a e n le d ct nCamomed mittee to consider the case of this railway, the Noble Lords to constitute that Committee. Lord BEAUMONT said he had intenhdtohavee moved an addition to the Committee named, e House seemed to think it was unnecessary, he ut withdrew that notice of motion. The motion was agreed to, and the several petitions were referred to the Committee named, itbeineghs ide. ordered that parties shoiiilEdAbeLhTeH o ardb E y one counsel on each TOWNS. The Marquis of NORMANBY presented petitions from the incumbents of two parishes, from the medical gentlemen, and the working classes of the city of London, in favour of the Bill brought in by the Govern ment, and praying that it may pass into a law. PORTUGAL. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid upon the table of the House, in answer to a question put to him by Lord Brougham on the subject, a number of papers, and a copy of the protocol recently signed by the Ministers of France, Spain, and England, with respect to inter ference in the affairs of Portugal. Lord STANLEY did not think that the papers laid before the House were of such a character as should induce either House of Parliament to pronounce an opinion upoa the course the Government had pursued -with respect to Portugal, and it would be very unwise, in the absence of any further information, to enter into any discussion upon the subject in either House of Parliament. Lord WHARNCLIFFE moved for certain returns connected with the removal of Irish and Scotch paupers. —Agreed So. The Bishop of EXETER gave notice of his inteotion to put a question, on Monday next, to the Lord President of the Council relative to the minutes on education. NAVAL PRISONS BILL. The Earl of AUCKLAND moved the consideration ce the report on this Bill. The Earl of HARDWICK moved the view of throwheomission o certain words in the first clause , with the ing the responsibility of committiar and punishing of. fenders wholly on the captains of ships, instead of alter nately on the commanders of ports as well as the cap tains of ships. Lord AUCKLAND resisted the amendment, which was ultimately withdrawn. The report was then agreed to. EMIGRATION. Lord MONTEAGLE then rose to move the appoint ment of a Select Committee respecting emigration as a means of relieving the distress of Ireland. He regretted having to bring the question under their attention so late in the session, but the reason of it was, he did not like to distract their attention with it while other mea sures for the immediate relief of Ireland were in pro gress. Now that obstacle was out of the way, and he trusted he would be able to make out a strong case for the motion he was about to submit. The facts he would lay before their Lordships were such as, he was per suaded, would fully justify some steps being taken for the advancement of colonisation. When he considered what their colonial empire was, that it contained a population of from five to six millions, and was scattered over every part of the globe, though he had the greatest respect for the efforts of the Colonial-office, he con sidered it required assistance and information in the work of advancing the interests of these colonies, and it was with this object that he was about to submit the present motion. In the present instance they had eight millions of people in Ireland to deal with, and therefore it was their duty to see that emigration was well directed, and that the parties who went out were so situated as to produce for themselves the greatest amount of food. While he wished to stimulate emigra tion, he wished it to be distinctly understood that in any measure he proposed he did not mean to dsturb the present course of colonisation. When he said that the amount of emigration from Great Britain to the colonies from 1825 to 1836, was 1,500.000, he exhibited a strong 'sage for the consideration of Parliament. The effects of it would not be limited to Ireland. The question to be considered was whether this emigration should flow in a direction towards England or to the colonies and dependencies of the country. He thought that some protection ought to be given to this country against the great influx of the poorer class of the emigrants. But when in the one country the wages were higher than in the other, it would be quite in vain to expect that legis lative interference could prevent the influx of poor from the country where the lower wages were paid to the one where 'nigher wages were made. It was only by a fair and inzpartial system of equality that this state of things could b e rendered such a state of things as should tend to improve the condition of the people of Ireland. Re ference had frequently been made to this mode of treat ment try Committees of their Lordships' House upun various: occasions. It was quite certain that either the standard of the Irish character should be raised to the standard of England, or that of England should be de pressed to the condition of Ireland. One or other of these tieing: must be done if the condition of Ireland was to be permanently improved. An opinion entitled to the se•eatest possible respect was pronoucced upon the subject 'a few years ago by his Noble Friend opposite (Lord Ashburton). His Noble Friend declared, when be was in office, and a member of the then House of Parliament, that Ireland could only prosper under a free and liberal system of emigration. Lord Fitzgerald also entertained a similar opinion a few years back, and if such a system were acceded then, how much was it required now when the population of the sister kingdom had almost doubled. He had given their Lordships an array of authorities in favour of emigration, but he had emitted two which he was desirous of communicating to their Lordships. No man had taken more interest in the subject of emigration than Lords Durham and Sydenham, who had . given it as t h e i r op i n i ons t h at emigration, when Judiciously conducted under Government supervision, not only benefited the parent kingdom, but added to the import ance and increased the value of her colonies. Re had thus placed before their Lordships the autho rity and opinion of men of all parties on the subject of emigration ; and having done so, he would proceed to impress upon the house the reasons why the quest:in:l was peculiarly important now, and why steps should be taken to extend colonisation. At the present moment it was admitted that at least one-fourth of the food of Ireland was destroyed ; the country therefore was, to some extent, in the position of several illions of people being suddenly added to the populat 1 without the means of supporting them. In such a case they would have at once to decide how to increase the food to the number of people, or take measures to send them where food was plentiful. This was the present position of I Ireland; a state of things which, he submitted, could mot be mended by the present system of emigration. Na: v, so far from that, he believed the present voluntary sys - tem only made matters worse. To show this, he nee d only say, that the emigrants which left the country wet e those who had small capital, or those who were the ablet it of the industrious of the population. A drain on i;h e capital of the country was therefore continual]. going on at a time when it could least ai - ford it. The Noble Lord read extracts from returns ; respecting the various districts of Ireland, in support o: the statement which he had made. He had no objective to the small farmers going to the colonies to improe-e their condition if they could, but their Lordships should take such steps that these men would not be the only emigrants, as appeared to be the case now. With re gard to Ireland, he could assure them that, however mach parties differed on other questions, they all agre oa this ; and this feeling did not arise from any feeli ai ; that had been unduly raised, but proceeded from t ho e conviction raised through letters received by residents in Ireland from their friends in the colonies, who had be sr successful settlers, and encouraged their relations IV home to follow their example. He did not wish that Olt people of England should be called on to bear the BY:. pense of a system of emigration for Ireland, for he 14£41 Persuaded that the proprietors of that country were s.O persuaded of the benefits of the system, that the re— sources of Ireland itself would be found sufficient tee iieltorrdyour an efficient sc h eme w i t h e ff ect. N ay, he had deal towtartdhs theat the soil itself would con t r ib u t e a great expense of such a system. Besides the colonists w ou l d to encooadreataide also give it, for their interests tigration, and he thought no better m on public colonial woltleopted than to set the emigrants means of realising fund , which works would be a great for sending other emigrants out. His decided opinion wass, that the reason why the Ame rican States made such while Canada made such slow progressrtvapaisci Elibecause the former had progre ss , political institutions, but a more fertile soil, or because he ca r of the American on account of the energetic eha. :ears supported by eneral of State Governments. In this viewraeGlta the report of Lord Durham, when Canada. Bat they were not alone restricted .ttio nstdas- The Australian colonies also presentectlhet ex tensive field of colonisation. He did hope that an Lordships would adopt the motion he had placed upon the paper. It would be taking another step towards improving Ireland, and if the inquiry resulted in the establishment of some system of colonisation, upon a large and wise scale, he was sure it would go far to get rid of many of the evils under which Ireland was at pre sent labouring. Earl GREY would not detain their Lordships at any great length in following in detail the statement of the Noble Lord who had just sat down, but there were one or two points which he could not pass over without offer ing a few remarks upon them. He did not agree with the Noble Lo r d that emigration could remove the evils from which Ireland was suffering. The task of trans porting large masses of people from one quarter of the Nglobe to anoth er was not so easily accomplished as his oble Friend seemed to think. He valued the im portance of emigration and colonisation as much as any one when confi ne d w i th - n proper limits, but while d eal ing with this motion he could not conceal from himself that a large number of noblemen and gentlemen, in a snemozial they had presented to their Lordships, had THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY __EVENING-, JUNE 5, 1847. :ieveral Bills were advanced a stage, and The House adjourned a few minutes past nine o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 4. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock. THIRD READINGS. The following Bills were read a third time and passed Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Stour Valley Rail• way (No. 2) Branches. Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Stour Valley Rail. way (No. I.—Smethwick Deviation). Bristol and South Wales Junction Railway and Aust Ferry-. Coventry, Nuneaton, Birmingham, and Leicester Rail way. Derbyshire, Staffordshire, and Worcestershire Junction Railway. Dundee and Newtyle Railway. Dundee and Perth Railway (Alteration and Extension, and Inchture, Polgavie, and Inchmichael Branches). Eastern Counties Railway (Enlargement of the London and Str a tf or d S tat i ons and Amendment of Acts). Eastern Counties Railway (Cambridge, Royston, and Ware Line, &c. 7 Edil.burgh and Bathgate Railway (Deviation nd Amendment). IS.ingsnorton, Northfield, &c., Rates. ,Laverpool • Gas. London and North-'Western Railway (Coventry and Nuneaton Branch London and NorthVeatern Railway (Atherstone any! Whitacre Branch). London and North-West R they (Purchase of the Earl of Ellesmere's interest iiiwitheaySlanchester South Junction and Altrinchara Ra Newport Pagnell, London and North-Western Railway Olney, and Wellingborough Branch). indon and North- Western Railway (Portob e ll o and Wolverhampton Branch, &c.) o R a il wa y (Devi a ti on and Lynn D k ) nn and Elyc s . goi •thampton and Banbury Railway. Par. kgate and Chester and Birkenhead Junction R a i l _ S an dwich Haven. Wexford Free Bridge. declared that no reformation could be brought about in the state of things in the sister kingdom for the next two years unless two millions of the peasantry of Ireland were transferred to America. The question of emi gration of late had been a good deal discussed, but no one had ventured to propound a plan, and he was prepared, therefore, to say to their Lordships, " Let us have this Committee of Inquiry, and see if this undiscovered plan of colo vnaisnattaigonescmouigldhtbaeriastetafirnnemd.;h—(e i H ng e n a i r r , y h , e b a u r t .) at Oaltlheevreandts if some others resulted from it the inquiry might have the effect of setting the public mind at rest upon this extensive and interesting topic.—(Hear, hear.) Up to 1830 no settled principles of colonisation were adopted by the Government. About that time a commission was appointed to inquire into the subject, and the re sult of that investigation was the establishmeat of Au stralian emigration. Since that period, upwards of 100,000 persons have been transferred from the shores of the United Kingdom to the colony, and the number was annually increasing. A good deal of the success of the system was attributable to the exertions of the Emigration Commissioners, who had succeeded in reducing the cost of passage, and producing such ample accommodation for emigrants, that the mortality of late amongst emigrants had not amounted to more that one per cent. It was the intention of Government to extend the system of colonisation, which had proved so successful in South Australia, but before it could be carried on to the extent recommended by the Noble Lord who had introduced this motion, a good deal of caution and inquiry was ne cessary. True, in America the system had been no less successful than in South Australia, although it had re ceived no Government aid in that quarter. But before they could turn their attention to that object, some pre cautionary measures would have to be taken. Last year upards of 1,900,000 emigrants were landed in Canada, who, through the instrumentality of the Emigration Commissioners, were distributed throughout the country to places where their labour was likely to become avail able to the settlers ; and their Lordships ought to take care that no act of their's should have the effect of interrupting or overdoing the beneficial system. There was now a system of complete protection ifor the emigrants to Canada, and there was no abuse but was at once put an end to by the interference of the emigration agent. The consequence of this was, that emigration was proceeding steadily and healthily to those colonies. He said now, however, and he said it formerly, that it was only a practical delusion on the Irish people to state that the evils of that country could be remedied by a system of emigration. He stated so in 1643, and he now repeated it, that it was impossible by this means to pro vide a remedy for the evils under which Ireland was suffering. He believed that those who were best acquainted with the subject were of the opinion that there would not be less than from 200,000 to 300,000 emigrants this year to America. Large as that number was, he thought they could be provided for, in conse quence of the means of distribution which was at present in existence, and of the deputed for labour. But if this number was increased to a large extent by Government interference, he feared that the effect would be great suffering in the whole body of emigrants, and that a considerable check would be given by this artifi cial stimulation to emigration generally. This hap pened in 1832, the year of the cholera, and 'he results which followed then, and which were well known, would, he apprehended, again recur if they adopted the same means to increase emigration, as the colonies would not be fited to meet the increased demand in their resources, and would not be able to absorb this surplus labour. The Noble Lord then read extracts from the dispatches of Lord Elgin, to the effect that the emigration hitherto had been easily absorbed, and that any interference with it might be attended with the most injurious con sequences. He (Earl Grey) thought, that if Noble Lords perused these dispatches—especially those which arrived recently, it would be apparent to them, that any artificial increase, such as that proposed, in the number of emigrants, would not be attended with beneficial consequences. His Noble Friend (Lord Monteagle), said, that by the establishment of a system of public works in Canada, a wide field might be opened for the absorption of labour. Now he (Earl Grey), would like to see a system of railways laid down in that colony, and he would like particularly to see a railway laid down from Halifax to Canada, as this would open up access with Canada, at all seasons of the year. If that policy were adopted, he thought the greatest advantages would result. But these were not things which could be pushed on with the rapidity some gentlemen desired. In the first place the surveys were in a very imperfect condi tion, and instructions had lately been given by the Master-General of the Ordnance to have them pushed on with as little delay as possible. Lord Elgin also, it would be seen from these papers, was to bring the subject before the Local Legislatures of the colony. Besides these objections, the present financial state of this country must be considered ; it must not be forgotten that it was with the greatest difficulty that they could prevent the Exchequer bills from being re turned to the Government, and that they were not in a condition to give effect to the railway enterprise even of this country. He was persuaded, however, that all these evils under which this country was now labouring were of a transient and passing nature, and that as soon as they were at an end there would be enterprise sufficient to carry these Canadian undertakings into effect. There was only one further point to which he felt it necessary to allude, namely, the contrast which had been drawn between Ireland and the American colonies. It had been stated that these colonies when they were so had got on ad mirably ; and that, therefore, had furnished a strong ar gument for leaving ourlpresent colonies to their own ex ertions. He would conclude by saying that he trusted that their Lordships would understand that in consenting to this Committee he did not agree in the practicability of carrying out this system of emigration upon that gi gantic scale which alone could render it an immediate and effectual remedy for the pressure which now existed. Lord FITZWILLIAM (who in the commencement of his observations was quite inaudible) said that it ap peared to him that one of the great objections which his Noble Friend saw to an extended system of emigration was, the great expense it would entail upon this coun try, but that was a difficulty which would in a short time be removed, although the present state of the money market might not warrant any great outlay at present. He thought, however, that any expense that was incurred by the Government ought to go to the removal of the evils by which Ireland suffered. The Government had determined to give pecuniary assist ance, so as to encourage the formation of railways in Canada, and he thought that the same course ought to be pursued with regard to Ireland, where the distribu tion of money would be attended with far more benfiecial effects. The want of some system of emigration was universally admitted, and if the Government did not assent in forwarding that object, who was to do it ? The landlord would be unable to carry into effect such an extended system as would alone be attended with any satisfactory result, nor, indeed, would they be able to carry it into effect, so as even to produce any great reduction of the sufferings of the population. He did say, if this country did not exert herself more than she did on behalf of the improvement of Ireland, and the condition of the Irish people, they would inevitably have to contend with a popular tumult. He was desirous of seeing the improve menteewnea:sse—c to e o er f et the l ao nn e ol colonies,at a d c t a, thatlas because we s yaausn Noble isbeeya nt far sh F e or the me mon f ey publiceoh ys a t d expended works, s op a ne i o d n md i ned andrel p f refer- must be largely reproductive. If they did not adopt these means, unless th e popu l at i on was immensely d creased by emigration, the Government would not for years and years be able to surmount the difficulty at tendant upon Ireland. What most impeded this pro vess of improvement, was the general public opinion in which the Government unfortunately participated, that the calamity of Ireland did not become the calamity of the empire. That calamity was great. Suppose they should proceed as they had been doing ; suppose, how ever, that instead of the potatoe, they should wish to in troduce wheat. It was certain that 2 acres or 2} would be requisite for the support of a family that used to exist on 1k acre planted with potatoes. But he was certain that it was an impossibility to grow two acres of wheat this year on the land belonginc , to those families which had raised each but an acre ("potatoes. 'This being so, he was bold to say, that unless the Govern ment was prepared to make up their minds to adopt a new course, to foster emigration, and the improvement of Ireland by public works, they must have recourse again to votes of money for the support of the helpless in that country. Lord MONTEAGLE replied—He said he had no ob jection to move for the memorial alluded to by the Noble Earl, just to rescue it from oblivion and the dusty shelf. The motion was then agreed to, and the Committee was named. CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS. The reports on the following Bills were further con sid,red and agreed to:— Lancashire, Cheshire, and North Wales Drainage and Inelusure Companies Incorporation London (City) Small D- bts W,:ymouth and Melcombe Regis Harbour and Bridge Trusts. SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time, and ordered to be committed :—Leith Harbour and Docks Dues ; Lincoln's Inn Rating ; Liverpool Fire and Life Insurance Company. REPORTS. The following reports were brought up, and ordered to lie on the table : Aberdeen and Great North of Scotland Railways Amal gamation or Leasing. Aberdeen Railway (Brechin Branch Deviation). Birmingham and Oxford Junction Railway (Warwick and Stratford Line). Buckingham and Brackley Junction Railway, and Ox ford and Bletchley Junction Railway Companies Amalgamation and Extension of Lines. Cheltenham and Oxford Railway. East Lancashire Railway (Southport Branch and Preston Extension). East Lancashire Railway (Burnley Connecting Line). East Lancashire Railway (Clitheroe, Mitton, and Padi ham Branches). East Lancashire Railway (Bury to Manchester). Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Burntisland Pier, &c.) Edinburgh Waterworks. Great Northern Railway (Extension to Leeds and Wakefield Deviation of Methley Branch of Wakefield, Pontefract, and Goole Railway). Leeds, Wakefield, and Midland Junction Railway. Leeds and Thirsk Railway (deviation of main line in Crimple Valley, &c.) London and North-Western Railway (Ormskirk and Rainford Branch, &c.) London and North Western Railway (Kenilworth to Berkawell Branches and Extensions, &c.) London and North-Western Railway (St. Alban's, Lu ton, and Dunstable Branch). Manchester and Leeds Railway (Branches, Extensions, Deviations, and Alterations of Levels, and other Works). Midland Railway (Cheltenham, Warwick, and Learning ton Line). North-Western Railway (Diversions at Skipton, Caster ' ton, and Sedbergh). Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway (No. 1) Extension and Amendment. Portadown and Dungannon Railway. Rochdale Canal (Sale to the Manchester and Leeds Rail way Company). St. Helen's Canal and Railway (Warrington and Black brook Branches, &c.) York and Newcastle, Newcastle and Berwick, and North British Railways Amalgamation. MANCHESTER AND SOUTHPORT RAILWAY. On the motion of Mr. ROEBUCK, leave was given to the Committee on the Manchester and Southport Rail way Bill to make their report this day, notwithstanding one clear day's notice had not been given in the Private Bill-office ; and the report was brought up and ordered to lie on the table. THAMES CONSERVANCY. Mr. DUNCOMBE moved that Mr. Wortley and Mr. Cardwell be added to the Committee on the Thames Conservancy Bill. Mr. WARD objected to the motion, and intimated he should be compelled to vote against him if it were forced to a division. Sir R. 11. INGLIS thought a sufficient case had been made out yesterday to warrant an addition to the Com mittee. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE thought that no objection would be urged by the Committee to the assistance of gentle men of ability, like his lion. Friends Mr. Cardwell and Mr. Wortley. They not only would, by the addition of these gentlemen, be receiving an infusion of new blood, but of legal blood—(Laughter)—which was still better ; and after what they had heard yesterday he did not think that the House would do well to remit the ques tion to the same Committee—a Committee composed of the Admiralty and the Court of Aldermen—(Laughter) —a happy conjunction.—(Laughter.) Why, the Court of Aldermen were of opinion that if they did not get this Bill through Parliament this session they would cot get it through at all, and therefore it was that they were so opposed to the introduction of new Members. Mr. WILLIAMS was not surprised that the Secre tary to the Admiralty should be opposed to this Com mittee, for when, as he understood, the Committee were themselves divided in opinion upon the Bill, the Hon. the Secretary to the Admiralty decided in its favour by his casting vote. But the Hon. the Secretary said that this Bill should be approved of, and he con sidered that the Court of Aldermen was a proper Court to have charge of this Bill. Mr. WARD explained in a few words. Sir DE LACY EVANS said that if the motion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury should not be carried he would feel it his duty to propose that the Hon. Mem ber for Finsbury and the Hon. Member for Westminster be appointed conservators of the River, in addition to the Members appointed by the Bill. Mr. HODGSON was understood to oppose the motion. Mr. HUME could not assent to the propositions which had been made, and he believed unquestionably that the change which he recommended would be serviceable, yet he was ready to accede to the decision of the House.— (Cries of " Divide, divide.") The House was then cleared for a division, but The motion was agreed to without a division. BELFAST IMPROVEMENT. Mr. ROSS moved that the Committee on the Belfast Improvement Bill do not proceed with the said Bill until the returns relative to the Belfast Corporation shall have been laid before the House. He understood that the motion was to be resisted by a Noble Lord opposite, because it was supposed that he wanted to get rid of this Committee by a side wind, but really and truly he had no such desire. He enter twined no doubt whatever that no case could be made out for the Bill, and sure he was that it would be defeated in a legitimate manner ; but if the inquiry were gone into, he wanted the Com mittee to be in possession of information that would enable them to arrive at a just and proper conclusion. Mr. F. FRENCH trusted the House would not esta blish the dangerous precedent of entertaining a resolution of this nature. The Bill was generally approved by the I authorities. It had been reported upon favourably by the Admiralty Surveyor, and he did not think it right that any obstacles should be thrown in the way of the Bill. He trusted under these circumstances Mr. Hume would not sanction the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. After a few words from Lord CHICHESTER, Mr. GREENE would submit toithe Hon. Member op posite whether it would not be better to leave it to the Committee themselves. Mr. ROSS assented to this suggestion, and the motion was accordingly withdrawn. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. Messengers from the Lords brought up several Bills. ILLEGAL IMPRISONMENT. Mr. FERRAND desired to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Depart ment, what steps had been taken with reference to the illegal commitment of Mary Dawson, who had been com mitted to prison for three weeks, and punished on the treadmill, for no crime whatsoever ; he also desired to know what further steps he considered it his duty to take. Sir G. GREY said that in consequence of the repre sentations which had been made to him, he had the warrant of committal transmitted, and he was advised that it was an illegal commitment, as the magistrates had convicted under one Act and sentenced under another. The conviction took place under the 17th of George cap. 56, and the sentence under the 67th of George IV. POSTPONEMENT OF THE ASSIZES IN IRELAND. Mr. S. O'BRIEN wished to ask a question of the Right Iron. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, of which he had not given notice: it was with reference to the post ponement of the assizes in Ireland by the judges. The gaols were in a very crowded state, and the precedent was not a good one, but was most objectionable It also appeared that the postponement wuuld not have any b,neficial effect, as matters were not likely to mend. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the judges had come to a resolution that a postponement was desirable, but he was not properly informed upon the subject as yet. PORTUGAL. --- Mr. HUME desired to know from the Noble Lord whether the promised papers in reference to Portugal would be soon laid upon the table of the House ? He was determined to persevere in his intentiontof making his :notion of Monday next. Lord J. RUSSELL—The papers will be on the table of the House upon Monday next, and I propose to go into Commtttee of Supply on Friday next, on which day it will be open to the Hon. Gentleman to bring forward his motion. Mr. HUMS—The question is of too much import ance to further postpone it. Sir DE LACY EVANS said that he hoped that the Hon. Gentleman would not persevere with his motion unless he was of opinion that gentlemen could discuss a question better in the absence of all information than otherwise. He did earnestly desire him to postpone his motion. Mr. OSBORNE said that the House was aware that a collision had already taken place between her Ma jesty's navy and that of Portugal. His own opinion was so strong on this subject, that if the Hon. Member had not pressed his motion, he should in the course of the evening., have taken:some opportunity of bringing the matter forward. The Government had every advan tage on its side in keeping these papers, while the House was totally ignorant of their nature.—(Hear.) Mr. BORTHWICK said that the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs. had last night informed the House that if possible he should lay this case on the table of the House this evening, and that Hon. Members should be in possession of the papers on Monday morn• ing. is 1826, the 11th December, Mr. Canning, under eircurnstacxes similar to the present, had come to the bar of the House snd read a paper from the Crown, stating that the interfeii.nce of lEngland had been requested, and he apologised for the lateness of the information, al tkongt he had only received it himself on the previous Friday. Mr. Canning had on that occasion given the information as early as pcsAbie, and had sought the sanction of Parliament for the interference, and he thought that a similar course ought to be pursued on the present occasion. The interference which had taken place on a former occasion, with the sanction of Parlia ment, had been successful, and all Europe felt the benefit of .It. The lion. and Gallant Member for Westminster said th;y ought not to argue the question in ignorance. The:e was no necessity that they should do so, for the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs could abundan.` l 9 Supply them with all information. He thought th.e House ought to be placed in possession of the reasons which urged her Majesty's Government to in terfere with the lib er ti es o f a nation, in order to sup port the !Au th o rity of a despotic Government. Lord :PALVERSTON said that he wished to ob servo that the House ought to be fully informed of the grounds on whioh the Government acted. But it ap • peered, from the course now pursued by Hon. Members, ' that they wished to come to this di-cussion without being so info med. He could assure the House that ever y exer tion would be made to supply the House with the papers at the earliest opportunity, and he hoped that if they were not laid upon the table on Monday they would be in possession of Hon. Members before Friday. He did not wish to follow the Hon. Member throughout his argument, but he was convinced that when the papers were produced, the House would see that the interfer ence of the Government was not with the intention of establishing despotism, but to secure the people of Portugal in the full enjoyment of those liberties which had been secured to them by the charter of Don Pedro. Lord J. MANNERS said, that the object of Hon. Members in pressing forward the motion was that some measures might be taken which would be attended with some good effect before it was too late. The Honour able Member for Wycombe had told the House that a collision had already taken place between her Majesty's fleet and the forces of the insurgents. It was because they were anxious that the cause of the people of Portugal should not suffer by any delay, that thew wished to proceed with promptitude. Lord H. VANE said that he would suggest to his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose to allow the discussion to take place on Thursday next. The House would then be in possession of the papers on Monday, and be fully informed on the subject by Thursday. Mr. HUME said, if he could bring on his motion on Thursday, as a substative motion, that it should take precedence of the other business, he would consent to defer it till then. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he understood the Honourable Member wished to bring on his motion on the day fixed for the Supply, but if he would bring it on on Thursday he would be ready to postpone all the other business. The Honourable Gentleman had mentioned that a collision had taken place between her Majesty's forces and those of the Queen of Portugal. His (Lord John Russell's) im pression, from the accounts in the papers, was that the collision was between the forces of the Queen of Portugal and some German vessels. Mr. HUME said that under these circumstance he wished to give his notice of motion for Thursday next. The subject then dropped. Mr. COLLETT would ask the First Lord of the Treasury, whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government, during the present Parliament, to supply the deficiency in the number of Members of this House caused by the disfranchisement of the borough of Sud bury? Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Government had no intention whatever of bringing in such a Bill dur ing the present session of Parliament, nor did he see any reason for the introduction of such a Bill, or that there was any necessity, unless a special case was made out for giving two new Members to the House of Corn mons.—(Laughter.) Mr. COLLETT then begged to give notice that he should shortly move for leave to bring in a Bill to make Chelsea a borough. —(Laughter.) THE WELLINGTON STATUE. Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY begged to ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests, whether there was any intention of removing the 'Wel lington statue from the arch opposite to Hyde park? Whether there had been any communication with the Committee appointed to place it there? And how long it would be before the statue was removed from its present site? Lord MORPETH said, that in reply he had to say, that it was the wish of her Majesty, that the statue should be remcved from the arch. That intimation had been given to the Committee, and in reply they had stated that it was their impression that sufficient care had not been taken to guard the scaffolding about the arch. When they intended to remove the statue he could not say, for he was not acquainted with the state of the Committee's funds, hut he might say that both t , e sculptor and the architect wer, dissatisfied with the effect of the statue as it now stands. And he had only further to say, that her Majesty had signified her plea sure whenever the House should vote funds for the completion of the arch, according to the original design, that any further decorations placed upon it should be illustrations of the achievements of the Duke of Wel lington, and should mark the sense of the country of his merits and deserts.—(Hear, hear.) REDUCTION OF DUTY ON SALT IN INDIA. Viscount SANDON put a question to the President of the Board of Control, whether he had received in telligence of a notification published by the Deputy Governor of Bengal, on the 31st day of March, 1847, by which on and after the Ist day of April, 1847, the prices of salt in store in Calcutta, manufactured under the Go vernment monopoly, and the duty on imported salt, were to be reduced, but unequally, and without notice to the importers ; and if so, what steps the Government in this country are prepared to take in respect of such enact ment? Sir JOHN CAM HOBHOUSE had to inform the Noble 14)rd that it was perfectly true that the Indian Government had thought fit to reduce the duty on native and British imported salt. The best thing, however, which he thought he could do, was to present to the House the papers from the Indian Government which related to that notification. A great mistake had been made with respect to the duty upon British and upon native salt, as it was stated that they were not the same, whereas the duty upon both was reduced 25 rupees. There had been no unfair play whatever against the in troduction of British salt. It was true the Government of Bengal had made an exception with respect to a cer tain description of salt, but the papers which he intended to present to the House (and he held a copy of them in his hands), would give the fullest information on the subject. It was stated on the 25th of March, 1846, that an alteration would be made after the Ist of April, 1847, so that the parties were not taken by surprise, and must have been fully prepared for the change which had taken place. In reply to Sir JOHN FAKING TON, Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE said th at the change had not taken place as a counter blow to anything which had been done. WELLINGTON STATUE. L or d J. MANNERS wished to know whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to commence the pedestal of the Wellington statue before an estimate was submitted to Parliament of its expenses. Lord MORPETII said that if the plan and estimates were ready they would most certainly be submitted to the house ; and it was not the intention of the Government to remove the statue from its present position until the pedestal was ready. MARY DAWSON, Mr. FERRAND said that it was his intention to bring the committal of this case at an early day before the House. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN wished to know whether Government intended to proceed w i t h t h e Agricultural Statistics Bill this session? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that .n answer to the question of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cockertnouth it was quite true that a report had reached the Government that the potato disease had again made its appearance, but he thought that it was too early at present to form any certain judgment upon the subject, as last year the great attack of the potato disease did not come until Juiy. In answer to the Hon. Member who had last spoken, the Government did not intend to proceed with the Agricultural Statistics Bill in the course of the present session. Mr. OSBORNE said that there were two different sorts of potato, the early and the late, and the early potato had shown symptoms of a disease entirely dif rerent from the disease of last yi-ar. He thought that the Government ought to use some measure to hinder the people of Ireland from sowing the quantity of po tatoes which they were at present putting down, as the disease appeared likely to spread. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that there was a body celled the Agricultural Society of Dublin, which took a great interest, in the general agriculture of the country. He thought that it would be far better for such a body to give advice than for the Government to take upon itself the great responsibility of advising what course the people should pursue upon such a subject. Sir H. W. BARRON said that if the people were encon raged to sow any substitute for the potato, it should be the one which had been recommended in the Gardener's Chronicle, namely, haricot beans. These beans formed an article of fool to the lower classes of people in very large districts of France, Spain, and Portugal. Mr. E. B. ROACH said that when he had left Ireland a few days hence, he had not heard any report of the re appearance of the potato disease. He had been round 100 acres sown with nearly every sort of potato, and in not one single instance had any tendency to disease been observed. He thought it would be the better way to put in crops of late turnips, which he had done with great success last year. Mr. OSBORNE explained, and the subject dropped. CHARdES ON VESSELS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in reply to a question from Mr. E WART, stated that an arrange ment had been made last year in reference to this sub ject. 'PUBLIC WORKS IN IRELAND. Lord G. BENTINCK said he wished to ask his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchepuer whether he was in a condition to inform the House what would be the expense of the staff employed on the public works in Ireland, or whether the cost of the rations was 2d. or last d t year, eaci ? Nir o u A I d ls o a o w u h t t t to w a a s b o l u i k t 5,800 c l er k s and overseers, which, if it Tailed that of The CHANCELLOR o f the EXCHEQUER said that it w as perfectly impossible to give a direct answer to the fir s t question of his Noble Friend, but he was quite ready toe 7 l 3 y o,o 0 be . the cost of to lay on the table of the House the last return which had been received. He could not say exactly, at the present moment, what the outlay was last Saturday. The rations had varied from 21d: to a halfrenny, but he believed that the average was a penny. Lord G. BENTINCK said that they had had the re turn of the expense of the staff up to the last statement, and it was there asserted that the whole, or at least a great number of the labourers had been dismissed, and he desired to know whether there had been any pro portionate reduction of the staff. By the last returns, it appeared that the weekly cost was 14,9001., and that the number of rations issued daily was 2,200,000,000. It would appear by this that the yearly expenditure in this department alone, would be upwards of 700,0001. and this, he thought, required explanation. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he did not state what the cost of each return was, but he stated that the cost would be 2,600,000/. e whole _ IRISH RAILWAYS. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, in answer to a ques tion, that it was not his intention to proceed with the vote for Irish railways on Monday next. PORTUGAL. Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE gave notice that, in the event of Mr. Hume not persisting in his motion, re specting Portugal, he would move, on Tuesday next, that it was hostile to liberty, and injurious to the in• terests of this country, to enter into any convention, having for its object the upholding of any dynasty in foreign countries, or suppressing public opinion in them. Lord JOHN RUSSELL explained to the Hon. Gen tleman that his motion could not be taken before the other motions which had been fixed for Monday. Mr. SPOONER stated that he had given notice that on the order of the day being read on Monday, he should call the attention of the House to the recall of Sir Eardley Wilmot. COSTS TAXATION BILL. On the motion of Mr. HUME, this order of the day was postponed until next Friday. LOAN DISCOUNT BILL. On the order of the day for the third reading of the Loan Discount Bill, Mr. GISBORNE said that he had been informed that there would be very little discussion upon this Bill, and if that were the general sense of the House, he was quite willing to abide by it, but if the Chancellor of the Exchequer were to make another speech, and other gentlemen were to speak, he thought it but fair that he and others should also give their opinions upon this mea sure and the Bill of 1844. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he had never said that this order of the day• was to go off without any discussion. He had heard that there would not be any prolonged debate on this subject, but he had never stated that fact to which the Hon. Member had alluded. Mr. GISBORNE said that he was sorry to have mis represented his• Right Honourable Friend, but when the statement that this was to be the first order of the day, had been made, he was not present, and he had heard that there was to be no discussion upon it at all. After a few words from Sir G. GREY, which did not reach the gallery, Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said that it was no in tention of his to protract the debate, as he understood that the matter would be taken up by abler hands, and he had only spoken for himself, when he said that there would be no debate upon this measure. He had in tended to bring in a Bill to repeal the Bank charter of 1844. Lord J. RUSSELL said that if there were any inten tion of bringing any measure forward, for the alteration or repeal of the Bank charter of 1844, it had better be brought forward in the shape of a motion. Sir R. PEEL said that it would be better to bring this matter forward in a more substantial way, and he for one should not trouble the House with any observations oa this occasion. Mr. BERKELEY said that the better course would be to allow the Bill to pass without any discussion. After a few words from Mr. HUDSON, which did not reach the gallery, Sir R. PEEL said a few words in explanation. Mr. BARING said he thought that the discussion had better be taken upon a practical measure. Mr. SPOONER said that he wished, if he went at all upon the subject, to enter upon it fully, which he could not do then. He thought that the debate had better be adjourned to another time, provided the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn would give an assurance that the subject would be again brought forward in another shape. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he at first understood that the discussion would be upon the Bill itself, but he afterwards understood that the discussion would be taken upon a more substantive measure. with reference to the Bill. Lord G. BENTINCIC said that he had another friend who intended to bring forward a Bill for the Repeal of the Bank Charter of 1844, and if that Hon. Friend did not do so. he should do so himself. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he was happy to inform the House that 2,678,0001. had been paid ep already upon this Bill. Mr. SPOONER urged that the Right Hon. Baronet should not have refused the offer which was made to pay up the money upon this Bill. That refusal had en couraged the bankers to believe that the Right Hon. 11,ronet had a sufficiency to meet the demand upon him. He ought to have foreseen the consequences of his measure, and he ought to have informed the con tractors for this loan that a demand would be made upon the Bank, and not have kept them in perfect ig norance upon this subject. The refusal of the Right Hon. Baronet to receive the money at the time when he was making a demand upon the Bank, was not in Pe cordanee with sound policy, or even fairness to those who were making the advances. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that it was quite true that at the time he refused the money that he did not think he should want it, nor was there any circumstance which he could foresee which would lead him to the belief that he should want it until the proper time for payment came. Mr. NEWDEGATE rejoiced that the debate of this day had called forth from the Chancellor of the Exche quer a more favourable bulletin with respect to the " Old Lady" in Threadneedle-street, than he was able to issue upon the occasion of the last debate. He thought it hard to saddle upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer the blame of causing the pressure which had existed on the money market, The Bill was then read a third time and passed. PRISONS BILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE. On the order of the day for the adjourned debate on the Prisons Bill, Mr. EWART said that he differed from the Hon, Member for Southwark (Sir Wm. Molesworth), who stated in his speech last evening that he should not have been surprised to have heard of some calamity which would have swept from the face of th e ear th theinhabi tants of that wretched colony. He did not think that the vengeance of Heaven, if he might use so strong a term would have fallen upon the guiltless inha bitants of that place, but rather the dire visitation would have fallen upon the heads of the legislators of the mo ther country. When he brought forward his motion in the last session the House was counted out ; but he was fully convinced at that time that a period would soon arrive when the subject would be brought more fully and seriously under the consideration of the House by the Government itself ; and those anticipations were now fully borne out, and the Government had brought forward a measure, embodying almost the identical plan which it was then his intention to have proposed to the House, had it not been that the then Government care lessly allowed the House to be counted out upon so important a subject. With respect to the Bill now before the House, he approved of the proposition as carrying out the separate system as at Pentonville, but he disapproved of the proposed plan of making the convicts work together in gangs; he entirely disapproved of any system of congregating together those persons. It was an admitted principle that the convicts, when they entered the prison, should see as little as possible of each other. After the prison discipline had been fully carried out on the convict, was it not an absurd thing to bring the convict out of the influence of this separate system, place him along with numerous others of a similar o r worse character than himself, and thus afford him the fullest opportunity for falling back into those vicious habits from which he had been weaned by the influence of the separate system? He regretted, therefore, that the Government had thought proper to introduce this sys tem into their plan. The system of assignment was a good system only on account of its being in effect a separate system, and upon that ground infinitely supe rior to any system which proposed to deport the con vista en mu+se, and in a congregated and gregarious body to one colony or penal settlement. He did not think that much weight was to be attached to the de cision of the judges upon this point. They were in their habits entirely microscopic, and it was:quite as natural to suppose that the powers of a microscope were similar to those of a telescope, as that the minds of persons long habituated to the study of the subtleties of legal lore should be supposed to be able to give a correct opinion upon so enlarged a question as th it of .ransportation. And with ail deference to these Learned Judges, he would say that they were the last persons in the country to whose authority he would defer upon a question of this kind. With two exceptions, one in Germany and the other in Prussia, the dis tinguished men who had turned their attention to the subject were in favour of separate con finement, as a great means of reformation. Many Hon. Gentleman did not distinguish properly be tween separate and silent confinement. Separate con finement did not restrict communication with others, as the prisoner had intercourse with those who were likely to do him good and not evil ; but the silent system was more severe in its nature, as the person so incarcerated had but little communion with others. He entirely co incided with that part of the Right Hon. Baronet's state. went which had reference to employing the prisoners at fixed labour, a system which had been introduced with the best effects among the prisoners intrusted to the care of Captain Macconochi. Although he differed with some of the details of the measure, he generally concurre , : in it, because it proposed the system of separate confinement, improved discipline, and because it did not destroy hope in the minds of the guilty, for if they de stroyed hope in the minds of these unfortunate persons, they would find that all their exertions at imprisonment would be futile. Mr. HOPE had no intention to object unnecessarily to the measure of the Government, and trusted he might, in the course of his address, be enabled to assist the Government in some of the details which were to be en countered in a plan fraught with so many difficulties as that of convict discipline. He regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark (Sir.W. Moles worth) had reflected so severely upon the conduct of his Noble Friend Lord Stanley. He had matured a plan of convict discipline, but if it had failed, surely the Noble Lord ought not to be blamed for the faults and failure of his agents, and they were selected from those who seemed best adapted for carrying out the system he had proposed. It seemed to him, also, that the Hun. Baronet had not paid that attention to the Right Hon. Baronet's speech, which it deserved from one who differed with the plan he proposed. When his Noble Friend acceded to office, the system of convict discipline was in a most imperfect state, and he did his best to remedy it ; and he appealed confidently to the publi c t o pass j u d gment upon the c ourse which his Noble Friend adopted, because he believed it was carefully revised, and would have been most successful, if it had been properly carried out. lie had no intention to advert unnecessarily to the con duct of the late Sir Eardley Wilmot, but he could not help stating that that gentleman, in a communication to Mr. Gladstone, dated July, 1846, spoke favourably of the system of probation passes, and of the good which had been effected by his system. With respect to Major Childs, he thought it right to state that he had been recommended to his Noble Friend as a gallant officer of Marines, as a good disciplinarian, and as . likely to fill th e o ffi ce w i t h advantage, which his Noble Friend had found some difficulty in filling. The office was that of a gaoler, without society, as it was in an isolated part of the colony. But his Noble Friend ought not to be blamed for th e con d uct o f M a j or Childs, because he hats appointed him under the belief that he was the best per son to fill the office; and here he ought to state, that his Noble Friend had appointed persons without favour, and with a sole desire to promote the public service. He (Mr. Hope) was in favour of giving the convicts, when they reached their destination, probation papers, because, It they conducted themselves improperly, they could be revoked ; but the plan of giving them their discharge as soon as they arrived at the end of th- it journey, might lead to great evils. He therefore contended that the views of the Right Hon. Gentleman were perfectly consistent with the measure of her Majesty's Government. He did admit the difficulties of controlling distant colonies, but the spirit of economy, which was meant for the good of the country, was too much developed over the other side of the world. A more liberal expenditure would secure them a better inspection, for the amount of remuneration was not at the present moment sufficient. The evils which were admitted to have arisen did so from the want of the commonest vigilance, from the result of separation, from the want of employment, and the want of accom modation. He believed that if greater facilities were afforded they would remedy all these evils ; and the Australasian colonies afforded the very best means to effect the object which ought to be d, sired. They had numerous natural prisons where seclusion was effected by nature, and from whence escape would be less frequent as this attempt would be more difficult. All they wanted in Van Diemen's Land was labour; they had in that country, with a population of 60,000, an area equal to that which Ireland presented with 8,000,000. It was not his intention to impugn the separate system, but the House should not so easily believe that in this system they had the cure of all the evils complained of; it appeared to him that too much had been said in its favour, for it was a notorious fact that many of those who were the best conducted con victs in Pentonville had proved themselves the worst in the penal colonies. In the last report which had been made upon the convicts who had been sent from Pentonville, and who had obtained whilst there high marks of confidence, in which it was stated that they gave way to temptation the first moment it was placed in their power. The reason of this might be that the criminal was too soon exposed to danger, and in his opinion the separate system would he much better pre ceded by the gang proposition, thus the criminal would first receive his punishment, and when his mind was in a healthy state, then the separate system would work well. The second stage appeared to him to be encum bered with more than financial difficulties. There was a feeling, a desire of reaching home, which could not be gratified in the penal colonies. and, therefore, one of the motives towards the reclama tion of the convict did not exist. They had the ex ample of a neighbouring country, France, on this subject, where a military system existed, but so diffi cult was it to control convicts, that though a sentry stood with a loaded piece on the ramparts of their pri sons, yet still they found it impossible to make the system work well, and whole districts were overrun by runaway convicts, who carried with them all the contamination which was the natural consequence of their dissolute lives. A large portion of the convicts might, under the present system, be sent abroad under control. If sufficient information, pro tanto, could not be obtained, he would wish to know what course the Right Hon. Gentleman would propose ? He was afraid that the system proposed by this Bill would entirely fail. In 1845, in France, under the penal system, 7,961 men were withdrawn. Out of a popula tion of about 35,000,000, about 8,000 had been removed from the country. As to the general effect of transpor tation, he might refer to the advantages that accrued to the penal colonies from the system of transportation. He would refer to the authority of Mr. Baker, a barris ter who, speaking of Sydney, spoke in the most favour able terms of the state of society there ; and this was most important, because Sydney was a great resort of convicts ; and then the vices of prostitution and drunk enness were, for its population, numerically small. He thought, therefore, the case for the total abolition was not made out so strongly as to call upon the House to give its assent to a system to that effect.—(Hear, hear.) If it was intended to establish any sy 'tern of transporta tion, and apply the system of giving tickets of leave, a new and entirely independent colony would have to be founded for the purpose. There could be no doubt that the colony of South Australia owed its prosperity to the assistance it had derived at an early stage of its exist ence from convict labour. Mr. E. DENISON had considerable fear, from what had passed in another place, that the system of trans oortation was to be put an end to, and a system of exile, or voluntary banishment, was to take its place. He was happy to see that the system was not to be abolished, -- nnd that convicts were not to be sent out of the country to exile as free men, but under supervision, and under a system or tickets of leave. The present state of Norfolk Island was mainly owing to the maladministration of the af fairs of that colony. The course pursued by Captain Alacconochie was more adapted to the government of persons not predisposed to crime, rather than to persons who had, in most of the cases been twice convicted and once transported from this country, and which could only be considered as the scum of society, which had risen twice at least to the surface of the putrescent mass of crime congregated in that colony. Upon the com mencement of his reign he distributed among the con victs allowances of grog, and entertained them with fire works and plays. It had been said that the sys tem of transportation was not looked upon as a terror in this country. A report had been presented to the House by the Coriunittee appointed to inquire into the subject, in which it was strongly re commended that as capital punishment had le.-en eery much reduced in extent, it was highly necessary that some effective secondary system of punishment should be kept - Up. The opinion of Mr. Baron Alderson, re ferred to last night by the Hon. Member for Southwark was not a fair exposition of his Lordship's opinion, as in the portion of his evidence directly bearing on the ques • tion of transportation, he stated that transportation was absolutely necessary. The opinions of Lord Denman, Mr. Baron Parke, Mr. Baron Rolfe, Mr. Justice Erle, Mr. Justice Wightman, most, if not all, of the superior judges in the Scotch Courts, Barons Lefroy and Penne father, of the Irish Courts, were also decidedly favour able to the continuation of the system of transportation. as the most effective system of secondary pueishment. There was no doubt that the colonists of New South Wales were favourable to the assignment system, and he felt that if something of the nature of the assign ment system could be connected with the punishment of transportation, it would have the best effects upon the criminal, while it would directly benefit the colony to which he might be banished. The inhabitants of many of the penal settlements found a difficulty in pro curing free labour, and they were naturally anxious for the establishment of some system which should enable them to take advantage of the services of the convict. lie thought, therefore, that Government ought to turn their attention to this branch of the subject. He was quite ready to leave the matter in their hands, and he hoped, now they were about to introduce some improve ment into the existing system of transportation, that his suggestion would not be lost sight of.—(Hear, hear.) Sir JOHN PAKINGTON could not agree with the opinions expressed by the Hon. Gentleman who had just resumed his seat, nor could he concur in the plan which her Majesty's Government had nrought forward, no doubt with the best in tentiens. 'Phis question of secondary punishment had occupied the attention of successive Parliaments, but instead of its leading to any improvement in the system it would appear that year after year the subject was becoming more unsettled and more coatis@d 11t Baronethcarefullyad the Secretarymid o t t he s s t p a e t e e ch fo es r Righto t f he th a e ome epa Ho r n t anent, and of toe Noble Lord the Secr e t ar y for the examined Colonies, and he must express his r e g re t , that it ap peared to him that her Majesty's Government tied not paid that attention to the subject which it; importance demanded. It was said that the probationary system, as established by Lord Stanley, had failed, Now Honourable Gentlemen who made that assertion should remember that Lord Stanley made his experiment under very difficult cir -umstances; but supposing the probationary system had failed, it did not therefore follow that the punishment of transportation ought to be abolished. He had the fullest confidence in the probationary system. It had never yet had a fair trial, and he very much regretted to find her Majesty's Government proposing their pre sent plan as a permanent one. The Right Honourable Baronet opposite, in a letter he had written to Earl Grey upon the subject of this plan, said it was to be an experiment ; why, then, had the Right Honourable Baronet departed from the declaration contained in that letter. Now, let him point out one of the difficulties which surrounded this plan. Under thti existing system, it occasionally hap pened that the sentence of transportation was passed upon an offender, and yet, from the complicated nature ~f the law, the criminal often. left the dock without knowing what would be his real punishment. Now, the difficulty of such a system had long been felt, but under the change now proposed the law would be rendered still more uncertain. The sentence of transportation if this plan were adopted, would some times turn out to be merely a tirade of words, and the criminal, after his trial would return to his cell, not knowing whether he was to be shut up in a prison at home or sent abroad with his family to a flourishing colony, and there set free to enjoy a state of things that was far more pros perous and happy than the condition of the honest labourer at home. He could not agree in the propriety of such a' change, and he regretted very much that it should have emanated from her Majesty's Government. He did not point out these defects in the plan from a factious opposition to her Majesty's Government; but with the view of pointing out the difficulties they were get ting into by adopting hasty changes in the law. To the first portion of toe plan, he would give his support. It would prove a satisfactory change in the law, and he hat', no doubt it would produce the most beneficial results. upon criminal offenders; but with regard to the second stage of the plan, he entertained the most unqualified opposition to such a change. He did not see any reason for depriving the honest industrious labourer of ern• ployment, by bringing the criminal offender into compe tition with him. Such a proposal wa s opposed to all principles of sound legislation, and he was surprised 'to see a gentleman with the experience of the Noble Secre tary for the Colonies , advocating such a chan ge i n the system. remonstrances o onstranc have det a i ne d m of the o ther House of Parliament, after th e system. These were the views he entert a i ne d upon es the th House eeuhjee s t. o long,ne was but after bu expression of the opinion of the judges against the charge, did hope the measure would not be proceeded with, he and should any vote be proposed to arrest the pro he should certainly support it.—(Hear, of the Bill Mr. HUM w E said ther e were fe hear.) subjects of more importance than that a t p resent before the House. With respect to the Bill itself, he must say that he entirely concurred in the principle of • it, as he thought the general central superintendence which it created would be attended with the best possible results. One of the grand evils at present existing in the prisons of this country was thewn t he was long o f op i n i on that theya o s }l f () nl a uniformity have,rm ity beenan d changed, and th at t h ey should be under one individual management. There ought to be a Minister of Public Justice, to whom should be confided the general super intendence of all matters of this kind. lie listened with , great satisfaction to the speech of the RightHott. Baronet, and he very much approved of the principles he laid down. He differed, however, very much from the Hon. Member for Dumfries, and the Hon. Member for Southampton. He did not object to the punishment of transportation, but to the mode in which it was carried out. For a long time transportation was not considered a punishment at all, and the consequence was most in jurious, as it ceased to operate as a preventive of arime As an Hon. Member said to-night, there were three par* ties to this question—the colonists, the British penlge , and the criminal—and the interests of none of these were consulted. They had not less than from 20 to 30,000 convicts in this populous country , and, according to Mr. Russell, there were convicted within the last five years, 108,800 persons. His opinion was, that those who were sent abroad would be worse at th e end of the term of expatriation, under the plan of the Government!, than they were before. He had questioned managersof gaols of twenty years standing--he had consulted ma. gistrates of the City of some considerable experience a the late Alderman Wood for inst ance—le hear)—and he found that confinement in this country had little effect, and what better would the convicts be by being sent abroad, whe re a ohanic"e. of scene and their liberty would lead th em to fres crimes ? But they would endanger the safety of We ie ./ by confining such an immense number of offenders in this country. There would be 30,000 or 40,000 prisoners confined in the gaols of this country, bat if there was any outbreak, the greatest danger mig ht come. They s it ol w d o ie u r l s d t b .o e r had not two large a number of soldiers in this countri for the duties they were called upon to perform, atonal which might ensue. But what benefit would there be in the why would be the advantage of the so stage ? If they= let men loose in their coloaies, e etheeeepsuzs%rynsteoohfarveeprless,soh3oog or 16,000 ad he wished to n which they had undei gone? Then some line drawn between those transported for seve fourteen, and for a longer term. conducted of the convicts themselves they had sent to the colonies had . well; in fact, but for them 30,000,0001b5. of wool would not have been sent to this country. Therefore, the P I T paanr:cborneafiknemse: sent system if carried out properly svould, he conceinven_ answer well. To show that the confinement of rise ,t; at home did not promote their moral refortuatio.n,...e. quoted an extract from a report to show that the per committals committals of criminals in Scotland was sixty-seven Pent cent. In Liverpool, during a period of seven k y les, 500 under 17 years of age had been' committed' of 51,000 prisonersd32,ooo males, and 19,00Y0e noo erice, of maturer age were committed, and 25,000 twice, t bad four, and five times committed; and a p e rson ;W that a visited Tothill-fields yesterday, had informed blip . person was confined there who had been couttnitetel 180 times.—(Laughter.) The difference hetwaad the number of prisoners convicted in France i_ of England was not more than 1,000,0001. The svh°„t o the the galleysre-c om re-commitments m p e e r n tese cent. ; France Belgium,w as 3 3 33 1: i e np r ge r e u e la n r t : 0 :: and -nueii in England 33 per cent. This was a itted; 25,- &nee, but still it was a fact. In London, the range re-commitments was 47 per cent., whilst the nv s ~:, number of committals in the more distant and leswirei pulated places was but 16 per cent.—(Cheers) of that the removal of criminals from the dense so ciety_ _. towns into the country was favourable to mo. went principle was better than any the rality. On the same principle, me they could adopt, because the convicts were reraoved: _232_. the contamination always to be met with in be 010 from his punishment on account of his of society.—(Hear, hear.) A man ought to be relieved duct, other assis_roeta any other system they could adopt. lie considered that and he held that this would be more rerr°nlatocr7 than system had not failed, but it was owing Captain Macconochie had been badly treate d t o i te , to e u r i conduct of his successor that such a r ni e P eor had been . spread abroad. Let them enlY re di„po, ber what had been said by Sir George ~, r sos namely, that on his arrival in the island, although I'vi_ts wholly unexpected, he found the conduct of the e° l3 g _ c ...r, orderly, and their demeanour respectful. Bo w roper I. , u r V uel Captain Macconochie was recalled, without anyty reason, and an officer was sent out who adopted teetled, system, and it was no wonder that the former al e ~,,, He considered, therefore, that transportation ought t __. continued under a properly revis ed s y stem ; _ft colonial appointments should be filled with Prtr ai persons, the men sent out were generally those w°' , o f the the Government were anxious to get sent 01 1 . - fat country. He had never objected to a proper sahl r Y no . a competent person, but a high salary rendered then fit for duty. No man could stand a high salary:'Bo (Laughter.) He would recommend the Governmello reconsider their determination, and although he eh ° i a support the Bill, he would propose several alterationS the Committee. A te r Mr. HAWES said that he was surprised to fie- "„ r the plan was exclusively regarded as it affected thetn°4"-ts countries, and not with reference to the mischievous effl'e,,A upon the colonies. There could not be a p l a n dells; to destroy and dig up the resources of any colony)hi_tla soever. The Hon. Baronet (Sir John Pakingt ha referred to the system of transportation as being heler ficial to New South Wales. He had also sa id that th.e coi,viet should undergo the probation syst em in this country. Why, that was the very proposit ion of the Government. The House should not for a women' suppose that the greatest efforts had not been made , t 4 3,, secure the strictest discipline. Let them only turn '- the reports which had been made to the Hous e froll/ time to time. Well, then, it they had given 15 y ou : , successive the iveeffuervs of the whole system, tsilbysucceedingSecretaries and ofSta i t f e so w these had failed, were the Government to be blamed fe l t endeavouring to introduce a new and well couside i r proposition, such as in his opinion was the present. J' I L , a ,. was prepared to show his Hon. Friend the Menihern Montrose (who was a Scotch Member) that it w e " — be more economical to adopt the principle of p rison discipline at home than the mode in operation of deporg' ing convicts, keeping them at compulsory labour in tb S penal settlements, and employing officers to superintene the system there. One fact would for this purpose serval well e o asudre court-house thousand. oihuesde t h et o steno et reports inse e vo f e r fr o from 0 t v h i n e g P fro not . ta the e colonies and from that again to the court-house. gentleman intimately conversant with these In t . e o l proved that the expense of 1,200 convicts for a Pe rl „ a i of four years would be, if transported to th e P e % - f settlements, 177,9001., while, taking the average cost - 0 the prisoners in the penitentiary at home, the W e d, number could be maintained for 85,0001. On the gran , therefore, of expense alone, he thought that a sufficierly case was made out for a change in the system hitherto_ pursued with regard to the subject of trallSpOrtatioll. 16 was surrounded by difficulties, but, on a full consider_s tion of it, he considered the modification proposed hY the IFril.llMisihlre;P a the Government one which would be productive of best results, and would be less expensi ve to the country and more effective for the repression of crinte: He hoped that the House, seeing the difficulties attend ing on the present system of transportation would presentwith h erwagree Majesty's the j e st yonly practicable Government in ny atem considering tha t n that the motion of Mr. NEWDEGATE, the de bate carriedthe ou t. On was L adjourned. ord ~iA l t )N asked the Noble Lord which question would be first taken up on p Monday? Oedhat the Lord li t Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied cate had a statement to make on the Scotch Marriage and and Registration Bills, after which the adjourned debate would be taken. NEWFOUNDLAND GOVERNMENT BILL. This Bill went through Committee. BURGH POLICE (SCOTLAND) BILL. The report of this Bill was brought up and received. HIGHWAY RATES BILL. This Bill went through Committee. STAGE CARRIAGES, &c. DUTIES BILL. The House went into Committee on this Bill. Colonel SIBTHORP called attention to the very crowded state of the omnibuses in the metropolis, and the cruel way in which the horses were treated. 00 many occasions he saw these vehicles .crowded in the closest manner, while the horses were scarcely able to draw the conveyances behind them, far less the greet number of persons. Mr. PARKER stated that provisions wer e in the Bill by which the Commissioners would be empowered to deal with the matters to which the ilob. Member had referred. The Bill then passed through Committee. SOAP ALLOWANCES BILL. This Bill passed through Committee. d of Tne other orders ‘f* the day were then dispose. and the House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clocii• LIVERPOOL, FRIDAY--The Roya l Ma il stead y an ship Cambria, Captain Judkins, sailed to-day for Bow? Halifax, with the usual mails and a large number of Pwr sengers. .'" [ ADVERTISEMENT.]—DEBILITY AND o , EXTRAORDINARY CASE.—CURE ST HOLLOWAY'S FILL 9 .-0 ' KN E .. r- I t S s not chell, of Bristol-road, Birmingham, was in that weakly sta ff to be able to dress herself, besides which there was a eenstan t er fre e in the right side, preventing her lying upon it. She was,. n .,, ev o pirita from head-aches, appetite and di ge stion very bad, an d f_, — so aa: always greatly depressed. Now, this lady, ere she becafetb, beet tremely ill , visited various watering places, where she had et to the medical advice, but her case baffled the skill of ill, an d L t bola' surprise of her family and friends she is restored to pelin an `d — a t Pre' by the use of Holloway's Pills.—Sold by all druggists, an fessor Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand, Londol On the 30th ult., at Clif ß to i n ir V ir i B ll . as, Maida-vale , the Wife 0! Charles Parkinson, E-q., of a daughter, still-born. t.adOo On the 31st ult., at the Parsonage, L'ambourne yPood Berks, the lady of the Rev. John Bacon, of a son. On the 31st ult., at York-crescent, Norwoo d, Surrey, 31rg‘ Sam Smith, of a son. On the Ist inst., in Soho-square, Mrs. E. Foster, of a 0 011. On the Ist inst., at Tottenham, Mrs. Cox, of a son. On the Ist inst., the lady of the Rev. Sydney Turner, ry: sident chaplain to the Philanthropic Society, of a daught e " who survived only a few hours. On the 2d inst., in Torrington- square, the wife of Ed Ward Willson Crosse, Esq., of a daughter. MARRIED. On the Ist inst., at Hove , Br i g hton, Henry Oakeley, Li e % tenant, R.N., to Emily Letitia, third daughter of t he lat Colonel Trelawney, R.A. On the 2d inst. , at Hove Church, near Brighton, Fred eric i ‘ Dundas, Esq., M.P., to Grace , eldest daughter of Lady Grace and the late Sir Ralph Gore, Bart. ________--------- DIED. On the 26th ult., at Iver, Bucks, Richard Wicks, Escl..._.„ On the 30th ult., in Dawson-street, Dublin, Sir Wilfu l "' Fitzgera, Bart., of Carrigori, wife county of Clare. On the ld 2d inst., Selina, the of the Rev. Samuel Mg' tin, Rector of Warsop, Notts. On the 2d inst., at Eltham, Kent, Frederic, eldest son of Isaac Guillemard, Esq., M.D. lace, St. John's-wood, Ems. On the 29th ult., at Abbey- Ems. wife of Mr. James Boyd, aged 2 3 . On the 29th ult., at the Rectory, Hart-street, Mark-19. Egerton Buckle, the infant son of the Rev. John Letts. London: Printed and Published by REURDO YOUNG, of No'S.:7 fi b :trend, Printer, at The Sun Office, N 0.112, Strand, in the rr= of thee Savoy, in tbo County of Middlesex. Saturday' , Au"' 1847. f ~ ~.~%, e"~ I