The Sun. — London, England, 1857-12-09 00:00:00

would now in a very few words proceed to state the stature of his case, and the proposition which he meant to ground on it. He contended that in periods of state pro sperity, when there was no pressure on the money mar ket, the mismanagement of joint-stock banks sowed the geode of future commotion, for these banks, possessing unbounded command of capital, were enabled to foster idle speculations, only to be overthrown by the first moment of pressure on the money market. The second objection was, that unlimited liability enabled these banks to incur an unlimited amount of debt, thereby precipitating their fall when the panic came. Whenever evera panic or pressure came, either from unfavou rable ex changes or bad harvests, then the inflated credit of the joist-stock banks collapsed, and the state of things oc curred which was described in the Bank directors recen t letter. On receipt of that letter the Government and the result did what they had previously done in 17 was the same in both cases, name ly, that the country, after severe disaster, at last right ed its e lf. The remedy was only temporary, but at neither period was anything permanent done to prevent evil in future. Having ex plained the manner in which capital accurnu,a;:ed in joint-stock banks, first b y calls, and secondly by deposits at high interest, the hon. member said that their machi nery gave them the power of mortgaging the whole property of a district, and thus of acquiring unlimited credit in the money market. From this it followed that however great might be the mismanagement, of the bank, it was always able to borrow money under the principle of limited liability. In fact, a course was fol lowed by the corporation which no shareholder dared attempt in his inlividual capacity. Oae of the most injurious of the practises of these banks was that of re discount. The profits on such transactions was the difference of discount between the heal and. London money market, and therefore there was al ways a temptation to take in speculative paper. But this was, in short, nothing hut selling the cr,lit of the general shareholders. The bank thus became I,.rgqiy indebted to the money market, and was in consequence in a thoroughly false and unsound position. A bank in such a position was al N ays liable to have its advances stopped, and when they were stopped there was then nothing for it but to close the doors and su-pen 1 payment. He must admit his conviction that this practice of re-discount had not prevailed in the London joint stock banks. It would be found that whenever a failure occurred the paid-up capital had been squandered, and this generally from something more than a mere error of judgment. When a bank found itself in such circumstances the law should enable the shareholders at once to wind up, or, if they wished, to renew their capital ; but as the law stood it was perfectly possible for a bank to go on after all its capital had been squandered, on this abused credit of the shareholders. From year to year it would go on from bad to worse, paying larger.sums every time for accom modation, and in versos other ways it was compelled to carry on its business in an un-economical manner until at length the time came when failure was nurnedia:ely in sight, and then if the wealthy shareholders held on for a few years they got rid of their shares, and left the burthen of the loss on the poor and helples4. With such temptations it was no wonder that business was carried on until the occurrence of a panic in the money market, when closure was inevitable and whole districts were ruined. It was unlimited liability that led to all this, by encouraging mismanagement, and permitting uubounied credit. It was generally believed that this unlimi - ed liability was first established for the benefit of the pnbl:c No such thing. It a-as forced upon the Goverainent of the day by the Built of E with a view of preventing joint stock hanks from becoming formidable rivals. Previous to 1826 joint stock banks were not lawful, and the private banks were on the principle of unlimited liability. The Bank of England was the only establlshment whose liability was limited. The private banks all failed in 1321, and the government esta blished joint stock banks in order to crve greater security to the public. Great sa g acity and jo"dgment were shown by Mr. Huskiseon and Lord Liverpool at that time, and their object was to establish limited liability ; and they would have dons so but for the opposition of the Bank of England. Toe hon. member here quoted the opinions of Lords Liverpool and Althorp and Mr. Hue kisson, all of whom were, he said, for limited liability, but were obliged to abandon the cause in consequence of the opposition of the Bank of England. He hoped now, however, better things, as the recent conduct of the Bank directors had evinced a much more enlightened spirit. Some of the evils which bad occurred in the case of some of the joint-stock banks had happened in reference to the chartered banks of this country, and if they turned to Scotland they found the Bank of Scotland, which was based on the limited liability principle, not only main taining its position but assisting other banking establish ments in tiding over a period of difficulty, while the Western Bank of Scotland and the Glasgow Bank, wherein the liability was unlimited, were failing, and bringing loss and ruin both upon the shareboldeneand depositors. When in 1849 be brought forward the sub ject, unlimited lability was the general principle recog nised by the law in reference to joint-stock partnerships —the task he undertook in urging upon the house to make an exception in favour of joint-stock banks was therefore then the more difficulty, Now, the principle of limited liability was the rule, and unlimited liability the exception ; and Lord 0 verstone, who was at one time one of the strongest advocates for upholding that prin ciple as respected j Ant-stock banks, now admitted that there was no necessity for maintaining it. It appE aced to him that the time bad arrived when the House of Commons ought to grapple with the au jest, and decide upon it finally ; for anything like doubt in respect to the law of banking was almost as dangerous as the adoption of a wrong principle. There was a pre cedent for the course he recommended. It was not long since the house adopted a resolution in favour of the limited liability principl e in regard to general partner. ships, and the result was that a measure to carry that reso lution into effect, was introduced by the government. If _they possed this resolution, he had no doubt that ministers would deal with it in the same way, and introduce a bill embodying its principle. There was every reason to believe therefore, that, if carried, it would be speedily made the foundation of substantive legislation even during the present session, In conclusion, he called upon the house, by affirming his motion, to prove that they had gathered wisdom from the recent disasters. Mr. COWAN, who had given notice of an amend ment to the effect "that as, from recent disclosures affecting the management of certain banks and other joint stock companies, the interests of large holies of shareholders have been seriously damaged in consequence of delusive representations and protracted mismanage ment, it is the opinion of this house that a searching inquiry should be instituted into the correctness of the allegations referred to, with a view to consider whether more efficient means may not be provided in future for securing the interests of shareholders in joint stock com panies," stated that he was utterly unconvinced by the arguments of his boo, friend the mover of the resolu tion. Hie hon. and learned friend had referred to the Bank of Scotland ; but ef all the banks of Scotland there was scarcely one besides that in which limited liability was the rule. The unlimited liability of the shareholders afford a necessary, and the best, security that the liabilities of the bank vroul I be met. He was aware that in the Scotch banks that had failed, as well as in the English banks, the shareholders—many of them being persons in humble circumstance, who in herited the shares as legacies—had suffered mainly, but it was some satisfaction to know that the creditors had been paid. He looked upon the principle of limited liability, especially when applied to banks, as fraught with danger to the commercial world • and he was glad to find that Mr. Marshall and Lord durriehill, the com missioners appointed to inquire into the law of part nerships in Scotland, took the same view.. He was serry to say that the public of this country displayed a Considerable amount of ignorance is regard to the Scotch banks. For himself, he believed that the banking institutions and the parochial schools of Scotland had done more to elevate the moral and intellectual character of the people and to develop the resources of that country than anything else. He would like to know how his hon. and learned friend would; under his principle of limited liability, protect the interests of the poorer class of depositories --the working classes—who made the banks the depositors of their savings, and who were certainly entitled to some consi deration at the hands of the Legislature. The balance sheet of the Western Bank of Scotland showed that there Were 26,193 depositors in that institution whose deposits were under 50/,, and whose average deposits amounted to only 191. 12s. Bd. each. By the operation of that principle which he held to be so valuable in Scotland these persons would all be paid, bat if limited liability were the rule, all their money would probably be lost. To the value of the principle of unlimited liability he was happy to say that tho Government had during the recent disaster borne emphatic testimony. The house was probably aware that the noblemen and merchant princes of Scotland, when the failure of the Western Bank-took place—relying upon the security which the unlimited liabiality of every shareholder gave, that all its liabilities would be paid in full —came forward and offered to take the notes of that bank in payment of rent and in discharge of commercial obligations. But perhaps some hon. gentlemen were not aware that the Comptroller General of Inland Revenue issued a circular, offering to accept those dishonoured notes in payment of taxes. (Hear.) This was a circumstance he wished particularly to impress upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as proving the confidence which was felt in the existing IPineiple and hemigbtadd that no thi ng h a d con t r ib u t e d *sore athe abatement of the panic. (Hear.) Ile ib miltbt some inquiry ought to take place into the mai "11444", amo unting in some instances to breach of t a r ec u t t z- d o w i i vi th hi j o n h in th t e had heard so much of late, as con instance, there was stock companies. In some banks, for reason to believe that dividends had, for a series of b bring perhaps declared of 8 or 9 per cent. per annum, , and trattniirr times as much as had been fairly earned eclared taraen yvbe_causeother competing urnieaainesnd7. In some, too, gehiletab!wi'hirlee ta t thed available business had been diverted to large°tractrying "u the Wive objects foreign to banking operatiogie;nd sr"- trusted to the hands of two or three individu als , These were fit subj.cts for investigation with ‘ a ' t e o the application of a legiNlative remedy, n. either evil practice WAS was that of gettin g up ,4 6 a , tis bills of exchange_ a ecammoeation bills is mad w i t h out value. He looked upon the issuing of ouch bills as akin to the crime of forgery, and he thought it ought to he undo an indietab:e offence, 110 trusted that Govern* silent Woolf adopt the suggestion of the right hon. member for Oxford Ilniver.ity to institute an inquiry, and in that hope, understanding that his amendment, which did not point out how the inquiry should take place, was eomewhat out of form, be would withdraw it, and content himself with opposing his hon. and learned friend's resolution with a simple negative. (Hear-) He considered the house would fad in its duty if—after the sad e x perience we had recently had, and the lamentable catastrophes that had occurred—it did not take some -top even before this eboit preliminary session terl4l Mr. WEGITELIN said he was unable to support the proposition before the house. He felt that the applica tion of the principle of limited liability to the paid-up :Capital of banks would be unwise, not only as regarded the banks, but as regarded the interests of the public. It was certainly true tbatthe principle of the trade of bask ing was that it was carried on with the capital of other persons ; and in that respect there was a marked distinc tion between banks and other trading establishments, eihept insurance offices. If you limited the liability of a baiik:you limited the credit, which was its sole and true capital, which was that on which it traded, and on which it induced people to deposit their money ; and, therefore, it was fo:- the public interest that banks should be of a sound and stable character, and that not only should de positors be protected, but that in times of pressure there should be no doubt of the stability of banks, and no &fa culty in the circulation of their capital. It was true that in former times the Bank of England did oppose the establishment of joint-stock banks. He did not know ou what principle that opposition was based, bat he was sure that the Bank of England acted on a sound princi ple, and from a desire that a sound system of banking should prevail in the country : for the difficulties of the Bank of England were vary great when banking was in discredit throughout the country. Tie argument that mismanagements was confined to concerns which were conducted on the princip'e of unlimited liability could not, be thought, be maintained. It had occurred under both systems; and when it was said that a prudent man would not enter a concern carried on under unlimited liability, the facts disproved it ; for many of the most wealthy men and men of large capital were members of joint,tock banks in London, and the same was the case in Liverpool. As far as prudence was concerned, he con fessed that he should not himself like to belong to a con cern carried on uuder unlimited liability,' 'unless the capital was so large as to meet every liability which might occur under any state of mismanagement. An argument had been used in favour of the limited liability of banks which certainly had weight with him, and it was this—that in the event of mismanagement in a bank under unlimited liability, and the shareholders becom ing cognisant of it, yet knowing that in case they exposed the affairs of the bank they would probably stop its credit and bring its whole liability on themselves, they would be rendered timid, and they would not have courage to deal with the mismanagement and bring it under exami nation. There was some force in that areument, and in the supposition that if the liability was limited the share holders would not feel that timidity, and the mismanage• ment would not be allowed to go as far as it otherwise would. There was force in that argument, and when he said he was not prepared to support the motion of the hon. and learned gentleman, he meant to say that if he had proposed that there should be a large reserve of paid up capital, as was the case in the colonial banks, of double or treble the amount of the liability of the banks, he should have been happy to have supported it. There was an objection in his mind to the mixing up sound with unsound hanks i n th e same ne i g hbourh ood, because persons would be obliged to trust one or the other of the banks, and so expose themselves to undue competition and perhaps to loss. An argument had been used which certainly astonished him, and that was that unlimited liability was not sufficient for the protection of persons engaged in joint-stock banks. Now, notwith standing that, unfortunately, in the last 25 years, since joint-stock banks had existed, there had been deplorable failures in those concerns, he did not recollect but two instances—that of the Glamorganshire Bank which paid 184. or 19e. in the pound, and the British Bank—in which the depositors had not been paid ix full. That was an argument in favour of unlimited liability. As to the argument with regard to the prudent management of banki, that applied equally to those under unlimited as under limited liability. The want of proper management was the great difficulty in reference to joint-stock banks in London. You could get directors who were erne mental, aristocratic, with good names, bat the difficulty was to get good managers. It would still be as difficult to obtain them if limited liability was adopted as in the case of unlimited liability, He recollected the; when there was a desire to establish certain joint-stock banks, owing to the success which had attended those which existed in London, the great difficulty was to get mana gers, and one or two of the companies applied to clerks in the Bank of England, some of whom had accepted the offices of managers of those banks, and it was a compli ment to the mode of conducting the business of the Bank of England that such applications had been made. Still that was the case. He also was of opinion that the prudent management of joint-stock banks was de rived from the excellent traditions of the mode of con ducting business in the Bank of England and by the Lombard-street bankers. It could not be expected that that principle would be carried out if banks were extended all over the country ; but you would have weak and ill-managed banks, and in periods of pressure like that which had just occurred, in stead of one or two joint-stock banks failin g, , they would go down by the dozen. F.x these reasons he desired that the proposition of the hon. and learned gentleman should be modified by the insertion of words which would require, not only that in joint stock banks a large capital should be paid up, but that there should be a large reserve. The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER said be confessed that he quite concurred in the observations of the hon. and learned member who brought forward this motion with respect to the form in which it alas ex pressed. The motion was in the form of an abstract resolution, which was always a form of motion which the house was cautious in acceding to; and it proposed "that the principle of unlimited liability enforced upon joint stock banks by the present law confers upon such eltablishmente a species of credit dangerous in character and prejudicial to their management, and is otherwise hinrieue to the intereete of ale public." Now if hEs bon. and learned friend had c xeresAid in his motion that the ot doubtful experlieny lia bility , and proposition the hoes present law, n hich enforced on joint stock leknks the prin ciple.of unlimited and loft them no option, was ought to bo altered, such a might have entertained ; but he (the Chancellor of th e conferred on ouch eatawbit himself by a formulae Exchequer) was unwilling to bind which declared that the present law in character and pr hart . s a species of credit dan gerouspublic. The inference which wo uld to the interests of the oug h t utd fl r o o ve . from these wores _into stockalailait unlimited lia bilitywould be that the house iit4ed liability should adap t ed , if t 3 i i n mp tli f e ra s t h iv a e re t lo a ld t haeks for, if unlimited liability led to such de ug „, 44 con4e. IHE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDA '''EVENIN G DPCE MI3ER 9, igNit nated, to satisfy the just expectation of the country in this respect. ... Mr. COLLIER—Having moved a resolution in a previous session in favour of the principle of limited liability, he would not shrink from extending that principle to its legitimate consequence, viz., that every 1 commercial partnership should be at liberty to contract with the public on the principle of either limited or un i limited liability, the putlic having proper notices as to which of the two principles they were dealing upon. He considered that the commercial classes of this country were better judges of theirown interests than that house could be, and he would leave them to act as they pleased. If the motion went no further than that, he would sup port it. But it went much further ; it committed the house to the expression of an opinion that unlimited lia bility bad been the cause of many disasters, and that in the business of banking the principle of limited was pre ! ferable to that of unlimited liability. (Hear.) Now he did not think is expedient hat the house should express any such opinion. tCheers.) It was sufficient for them to say to the banks, " We will not interfere ; you may contract with the public as you please." If, then, we were to express an opinion on the subject, he would say it should be the very reverse of that recommended by his hon. and learned friend. (Hear, hear.) Though he would leave the banks free to contract upon either principle, he was clearly of opinion that the unlimited principle was the better of the two. (Hear, hear.) Others might first trust an unlimited liability bank if they pleased, but he would not. (" Hear," and laughter.) Whose interest ought they to consult most, that of the shareholders or that of the public I He ventured to think that the interest of the public deserved more con sideration than that of the shareholders. (Cheers.) The shareholders had some voice and discretion in the management, and must be supposed to have some know ledge of the conduct of the directors, but the public knew nothing of the one or the other. His hoe. and learned friend was wrong in supposing that the interest of the shareholders was the paramount consideration ; it was that of the public. (Hear.) Take the British Bank. In that case the public had not suffered much by the failure. The creditors had, he believed, received or would receive 16s. in the pound, and but for the ruinous law charges, which were wholly indefensible, would have received the full 20s. Bat what would have been the result had the shareholders been able to protect themselves by the plea of limited liability ? His hon. and learned friend said that unlimited liability encour aged undue speculation, while limited liability discour aged i' .That was entirely thereverse of every argument they had h.therte hen don the subject. It was, in fact, . ignoring all experience and all knowledge of human nature, which taught them that those who had nothing to lose were always more ready to speculate than those who had everything to lose, (Cheers.) Mr. J. E WART saw no reason why, as the house had adopted the principle of limited liability in reference to other joint-stock partnerships, it should not be ex tended to banks. In the case of the South Wales Bank and some others, the consequence of unlimited liability had been to encourage an unwise extension of banking operations by means of bills, which, in the end, has led to stoppage and failure. ' Mr. WYLD denied that the public did not stiffer under the operation of unlimited liability in banking. When failure came the unlimited liability did not prac tically operate, while it tended to depreciate the charac ter of the proprietary body. In the case of the British Bank, which had paid only Bs. in the pound, but which, by the exhaustion of the paying ability of the share holders, it was hoped might pay 16s. 6d., the result of the intended principle was that when failure took place, instead of having a large body of wealthy proprietors to fall back up . 3n, the creditors found that 72 of the share holders were governesses, clerks, shopmen, and persons in humble circumstances, whose whole availabteresouroes were sunk in the bank. He knew from the investigation which had taken place into the affairs of the British Bank that if it had been conducted on the principle of liability the whole sum due to the creditors would have been paid. He should support the proposition of the hon member for Newcastle, and he hoped that if it was not carried the Government would allow this point to be in cluded is the general inquiry into the subject of banking. Mr. L. KING said that the hon. and learned member for Plymouth asked why the principle of limited liability should not be ex ended to banking as to other trades. The reason was, that in other trades the trading was car ried en with the trader's own capital, while the trade of banking was carried on with the capital of other parsons. If the principle of limited liability had been applied to banking he believed that the disasters which had occurred in the recent crisis would have been greater than they were. tingent, and he went as soon as possible to India, where he was placed in a difficult command. Hejoined Havelock in the expedition for the relief of Lucknow, where h 3 fell. To all these officers and men the country owed much gratitude, and it was with the greatest pleasure he found that Gene rals Wilson and Havelock were to have Delhi and Luck now added to their titles. Mr. WHITE said the house had been addressed by mem bers of the military and naval profession, and ho would address it as a merchant. It ill became the dignity of that house to propose so small a pension, considering the great obligations the country was under to General Havelock, (Hear, hear.) General Havelock was now some 63 or 64 years of age, and saying nothing of the danger to which he was exposed in the practice of his profession, he did not think an insurance office would value his pension at more than three years' purchase. He thought such a sum was utterly inadequate to the services performed, and he be lieved that' would be the opinion of every man in the country. General Havelock had not come from the Crimea, from a campaign indifferently conducted under aristocra tic leaders, or he might have received a greater reward. Lord PAL XtERSTON could not allow the expression of the hon. member regarding the Crimea to pass unnoticed. He thought the hon. member must be in a state of entire ignorance of what passed in that campaign ; he must have forgotten the battle of the Alma and the battle of Joker man. He must have forgotten those long months of pri vation, of danger, and of difficulty, to which the army was subject in the trenches before the Sebastopol. He must, have forgotten that the army, having landed at Old Fort, and having undergone the privation for two or three months of not having those ordinary conveniences which even in a campaign attended the soldier—he must have forgotten that the soldiers, without baggage, performed their duty in a manner , honourable to the country. Our army in the Crimea covered itself with honour, and he disliked to hear an Englishman express himself as the bon. member had done. (Cheers.) That army, which began with difficulties unknown in war, ended in a state of perfect discipline, and was the admiration of the other armies in the field. (Hear, bear.) Mr. WHITE—God forbid that I shou l / 4 1 say one word against the gallantry of the British army in the Crimea. I quite concur in what the noble lord has said in its praise. I should have been unworthy of the name of an English man to have expressed a contrary opinion. What I said I meant in a strategtic point of view, and I was merely re peating the opinion of Germans and others woo have writ ten on that campaign. Lord PALMERSTON said he too would look at the campaign in a strategic point of view. The two armies, French and English, besieged a fortress, in which there something wholly independent of the rate charged on mercantile bills. (Hear.) After this explanation, he (the right hon. gentleman) hoped the committee would agree to the clause as it,stood. (Hear, hear.) Mr. SPOONER differed from the right hon. gentleman with regard to what regulated the rate of interest. It was a point upon which great difference of opinion prevailed in the committee ; but he certainly thought himself that the Bank rate regulated that charged by private dis counters, and not the yeverse. The object for which the rate had in the present instance been raised had been ac complished. The exchanges had been corrected, bat in doing so the general confidence of the country had been shaken. lo restore that confidence it would be necessary to continue a large amount of notes in circulation ; for when the public confidence was impaired it took a larger numerical amount of notes to do that for which a smaller amount would be sufficient under more favourable circum stances. So far as the exchanges went they might safely reduce the rate of interest ; but the Bank would be unable to do that, because, as the clause stood, if the demand for notes were renewed they would lobe the power of issuing the extra two millions the moment they went below the 10 per cent. 'He thought that the whole matter ought to be left in the discretion of the Bank. — Mr. CAYLEY said that if the act had been relaxed sooner it was quite possible that the pressure still existing would not have been protracted so long. Probably the reason why the relief afforded by the letter of the govern ment had not proved as successful as in 1817 was the fact that it had been too long delayed. He thought that it would be well, perhaps, to allow a rather greater latitude to the Brink. Sir C. WOOD said that in 1847 the minimum rate of 54 percent. was the rate at which the Bank discounted short bills, while their averagg rate was 74 per cent. The hon member (Mr. Matins) had, therefore, fallen into an error upon this subject Mr, MALINS said that if, when the minimum rate was 54 per cent. the average rate was 74 per cent., so at the present time, when the minimum rate was 10 per cent., the average rate must be about 12 per cent. The committee divided— For the amendment Against Majority The amendment was therefore, lost. The remainder of the bill passed through committee, and the house resumed. 18 100 ----82 ...... The bill was reported, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. _ The house adjourned at a quarter to ton. From the London Gazette of Last Night HOME-OFFICE, DEC. 5. The Leeds Reformatory School at 11 , 101, near Leeds, in the West Riding of Yolk, has been certified by the Secro tary of State as fit to be a Reformatory School, under the provisions of the statute 17 and 18 Viet., 86. ADMIRALTY, DEC. 5. The following promotions, dated the 28th ult., conse quent on the death, on the 27th ult., of Admiral Thomas Le Marchant Gosselin, nave this day taken place : Admiral of the White Sir George Manly, K.C.8., to be Admiral of the Red. Admiral of the Blue John Ayscough to be Admiral of the White. Vice-Admiral William Croft, on the Reserved List, to be an Admiral on the Reserved List. Vice-Admiral of the Red William Bowles, C. 8., to be Admiral of the Blue. Vice-Admiral of the White Sir Barrington Reynolds, K.C.8., to be Vice-Admiral of the Red. Vice-Admiral of the Blue Sir Charles Sullivan, Bart., to . , . _ be Vice-Admiral of the White. Rear-Admirals on the Reserved List Norwich Duff, Sir Charles Christopher Parker, Bart., John Edward Walcott, and The Right Hon. Frederick, Earl Spencer, K.G., C. 8., to be Vice-Admirals on the Reserve List. Rear-Admiral of the Red Sir 1 ames Hanway Plumridge, K.C.8., to be Vice-Admiral of the Blue. Rear-Admiral of the White Williams Sandom to be Rear- Admiial of the Red. Rear-Admiral of the Blue the Right Hon. Lord Edward Russell, C.B , to be Rear-Admiral of the White. Captain Horatio Thomas Austin, C. 8., to be Rear-Admiral of the Blue. ADMIRALTY, DEC. 2. First Lieutenant Edmund Henry Cox to be Captain, vice M`Callum, to half-pay. First Lieutenant Edmund Brighouse Snow to bo Cap Lain, vice M`Carthy, to half-pay. Second Lieutenant Horatio Guy Campbell to be Firsi Lieutenant, vice Cox, promoted. Second Lieutenant Thomas Meyrick Hewett to be Firsi Lieutenant, vice Snow, promoted. ADMIRALTY, Dec. 3. THE ALLEGED FORGERY OF A WILL BY. A PRESTON MAGISTRATE. THE WRITER OF THE WILL DISCOVERED. COMMITTAL OF THE ACCUSED. PRESTON, TUESDAY. To-day the adjourned hearing - of the charge against Mr. Thomas Monk, surgeon, the oldest alderman of the borough of Preston, a borough and county magistrate, and a deputy-lieutenant of the county, of forging the will of the late Edward Tur ner, reedmaker, of St. Paul's-road, Preston, was resumed at the Town-hall. Mr. Segar, barrister, instructed by Mr. R. Arcroft, the town-clerk, appeared f or th e prosecu tion. Mrs. Ann Edna Pipe, wife of John Wilkers Pipe Fishergate, hairdresser, sw o rn , sa id--I have resided in Preston for between five and six years. I know the prisoner, Mr. Thos.• Monk. - Since I have been in Preston he has been the medical at tendant of my family. I remember having occasion to call one morning at his surgery to consult him. It is between two and three months ago. It was between tho hours of nine and ten in the morning. don't remember the day of the week. I saw Mr. Monk that morning at his surgery. He appeared to be preparing to go out,' and asked me if I bas time to copy a paper for him. He produced a written paper. He also produced a blank sheet of paper to make a copy of it upon, and gave me some directions as to how I was to write it. He told me to write it large, and I think he said like a man. I did copy the document he gave to me for that purpose. I copied the document in his surgery. Mr. Monk was up and down the stairs of his surgery while I was copying it. I cannot say positively in whose handwriting the paper was that I copied. The document produced by Mr. Winder, clerk of the Consistory Court, last Friday, and now put into my hands, is the copy I made. The whole document is in nay handwriting, except the signatures Joseph Wilkinson, Preston, and Edward Farmer, Preston. The word "day," in the last line but one of the body of the will, is my handwriting. I think I discovered the omission of the word " day" Myself: I made the bracket to the attestation. After I had copied the document, I left it with Mr. Monk. I cannot say whether the name James Holden was upon the document when I copied it. It was either upon the one I copiel or I was directed to write it upon the document by Mr. Monk. At that time, I had never heard of Edward Turner. I did not Fee Edward Turner sign the document I copied. When I left it with Mr. Monk there was no o her writing upon it ex cept my own. This closed the testimony for the prosecution. After some remarks from the counsel on each side, the bench committed Mr. Monk for trial, refusing to take bail. The defence was reserved. The prisoner was removed to the House of Cor rection. quences, it was the duty of Parliament to enforce the principle of the limited liability of shareholders in such banks. To that conclusion he (the Chancellor of the chequer) for one objected, without some further informa tion being obtained on the subject, and therefore he could not agree with hie hon. and learned friend or vote for his resolution. Tne question was one of interest acd import ance at the present moment, and perhaps the house would allow him to express hisopinion upon it. One distinction, it appeared to him, bad not been sufficiently adverted to in that debate, and that was that the functions of banking were twofold. One of its functions was that of issue, and the other that of deposit. It seemed to him that there was a great difference in dealing with the question of theunlimited liability of shareholders in refer ence to those twofunctions. When a country bank issued notes, which were not a legal tender like those of the Bank of England, nevertheless, in the district in which the bank was situated these notes passed current from hand to hand, and practically discharged the function of money,' no one; had the option of accepting or refus ing them. Therefore a country bank note passed current not on the credit of the person who tendered it in pay ment, but on that of the bank from which it issued, and a tradesman in a country town who took • note offered to him in payment for his goods-was not in a condition to refuse it, and he took it not on the credit of the person tendering it, but on that of ,the bank which issued it. He was not like a depositor, and unless it was required that there should be a deposit of securities equal to the issue of Dotes, or that notes should be issued only against bullion, by a system placed under the custody of public functionaries, it would not be reasonable to deprive the holders of such notes of the security of the unlimited lia bility of the shareholders of a bask. With regard to that part of the functions of banking be altogether dissented from the doctrine of his hon. and learned friend, that the principle of unlimited liability had given rise to a system injurious to the public interests. On the contrary, it bad given rise to a species of security to which the public were entitled, and of which it would be unjust to deprive them. However, the argument of his hon. and learned friend applied not to that class of the buainess of banking but to the deposit part of its functions. N o doubt many joint-stock banks might be considered as mercantile agencies, and when we applied to other mercantile associations the principle of limited liability, many reasons might be fairly alleged for the, including of joint stock banks, so far as regarded that - portion of their business, on the principle of limited liability. But he wish( d to call the attention of the house to the manner in which that privilege was introduced into our legislation. We begin with that class of joint stock projects in which a large expenditure was involved, such as canals and railways, and the argument on which the house proceeded, and on which • t anthcrised an especial statute derogating from the general law, was that it was desirable to encourage enterprise, and that the best mode of doing so was by adopting the principle of limited liability. In that way that principle was first introduced into our legislation, first in our local legisla tion, and then in a general statute applicable to all cases of general enterprise, and it was always understood that the argument on which it was founded was that the adoption of such a principle tended to encourage mer cantile enterprise. That argument, however, did not apply to banking. There was no object in encouraging enterprise in that direction, but it was rather an object to check the tendency to speculation of that kind than to increase it ; and he believed that one effect of limited liability would be in some degree to repress undue credit, inasmuch as the knowledge that various wealthy persons were among the shareholders of a joint-stock bank would induce discounters to look merely at the name of the bank on a bill, to be indifferent about the value of the hi' itself, and not to inquire into its credit and quality. It was not an unfair argument, therefore, to urge that if the liability of shareholders was limited, and the credit of a bank was less comprehensive, people would look rather to the nature and quality of a bill itself than to the bank which had endorsed it, which would tend to intro duce a wholesome caution in such transactions. That was an argument, however, for further consideration, and looking to the argument of his hon. friend, the member for Southampton, who spoke with so much ability in the debate, that the majority of joint-stock banks which had failed had proved to be solvent, it was an argument in favour of the maintenance of the present law, and for not abandoning that security which the depositors now possessed. The suggestion he had to make to the house was that if they agreed to the motion which he should submit to them on Friday next for the appointment of a select committee to inquire into the question of banking generally, they should leave the question of limited or unlimited liability with respect to joint-stock banks and other banks to be considered by that committee. It was a subject which properly fell within the scope of that inquiry; and, as the question of the security to be taken for the issue .of notes could hardly be considers'' by itself, and without reference to the question of general mercantile agencies, it seemed to him that the course he now proposed iva, more likely to lead to a satisfactory conclusion than the motion of his hon, and learned friend.. He should vote against it. Mr. MALINS urged that the main cause of the disasters which had recently occurred to joint-stock banks was the maintenance of the principle of unlimited liability. It was said that the business of banking was different to that of• other trades, because it was a trading with the capital of others, but there was no (ifference between tradingon credit and the capital of other persons, which was the ca se i n every trade. Again, it was sa id that ere ought to be a difference made between the case of joint-stock banks under limited and unlimited liability, sill that in case of the former there should be a large reserve of capital. The lion. mem her for Southampton said he could not trust an unlimite I liability bank • and would any man now join a joint-stock bank established oa the principle of unlimited liability ? Was it not desirable that prudent and cautious mon should be connected with these concerns? and that could only be done by adopting the principle of limited liability. He agreed that the motion of his hon. and learned friend was not pat in a tangible shape. Every one Was agreed that the present state of things was unsatisfactory, and the house ought to be glad of the opportunity of considering whereer some steps should not be taken for improving the banking system of the country. Mr. T. lIANKEY said that if he thought that the motion of his hon. and learned friend be interpreted into a compulsory law to compel the adoption of limited liability by all joint-stock banks, he would not support it; but he understood that the motion left it oper4to joint-stock banks to adopt the law as it already stood with regard to other joint-stock companies. He had heard no argument which showed that it would be nnadvisable that the law of limited liability should be applied to joint stock banks, which he believed would cause greater confidence in them, and induce capitalists to embark in them. He begged to move as an amendment, " That the present law, enforcing the unlimited liability of shareholders in joint stock banks, requires alteration." He believed these words would meet the views of his hon. friend, and would be in accordance with the resolution which the house had already adopted. Mr. CRAUFURD seconded the amendment, Mr. BUCHANAN said as the subject was one of so much importance, and involved so much difference of opinion, be thought the house would act prudently in adopting the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exche quer, and referring the question to a committee. Mr. HEADLAM, in replying, observed that he did not think the motion ought to be got rid of by special pleading, and expressed a hspe that the house would pronounce an opinion that the law required alteration. Believing that the reference of the matter to a.committee would be perfectly nugatory, he could nut consent to the , adoption of such a course. He, however, had no objeo tioto to adopt the words of the amendment suggested by his hon. friend. The original motion was then put and negatived, and the amendment was put as an original motion ; on which the house divided. Toe numbers were : For the motion Against it Majo:ity THE BEVERLEY ELECTION—PROSECUTION OF MR. GLOVER. • On the motio n o f M r . J. A. SMITH, the resolution which upon the 3d of August last was reported from the select committee on the Beverley election petition, was read. The hon. gentleman then moved, in conformity with that — riAolution; tha't Mr. Attorney-General be directed to prosecute Edward Auohwuty Glover, Esq-, in respect of the declarations made and signed by him under the act of. the Ist and 2tl -of Victoria, cap. 43 ; that the proper officers of this house and the shorthand writer attending this house have leave to attend and give evidence, an 1 to produce such papers and documents as may be required on the trial of the said Edward Anchmuty Glover, Esq. The motion was agreed to. TRANSPORTS TO INDIA. • On the motion of Sir C. NAriEn, a return was ordered of the names of transports taken up for India, specifying whether steamers or sailing vessels, their tonua;e, if steamers their horse power, the number of men each car ried, rate of passage money, the date of sailing, and the date of arrival as far as is known. COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC PETITIONS. _ OR the motion of Mr. BONHAM CARTER, the following hon. members were appointed and nominated as the select committee on public petitions :—Mr. Bonham Carter, Mr. Thorneley, Mr. Scott, Mr. Adderley, Mr. Owen Stanley, Mr. Henry Austin Bruce, Mr, Gregeon, Mr. De Vere, Mr. Wise, Mr. lDillwyn, Mr. Charles Forster, Mr. Gard, Mr. Davison, Mr. Woods, and Mr. Taverner John Miller. Three to be the quorum. NEW WRIT FOR MAYO. Colonel FRENCH moved " That Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant for the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland to make out a new writ far the electing of a knight of the shire to serve in the present Parliament for the county of Mayo, in the room of George Henry Moore, Esq., whose election has been determined to be void." Colonel NORTH, as a member of the committee which sat during the last session, opposed the motion, on the ground that tho writ ought not to issue until the result of the trial which had been directed by the house should be made known. Colonel FRENCH said the resolution to which the house had come was that the writ should be suspended during the last session; and he called upon the noble lord at the head of the Government to put a stop to the atteuipt now wa•.le to overrule the privileges of the people. Lord PALMERSTON said that when the question was last under the consideration of the house lie agreed with other hon. members that the writ should not then issue, and that it ought to be suspended until after the trial had taken place, the expectation being that it would take place during the autumn. The prosecution, however, bad been postponed, and it appeared to him doubtful whetherit was right and proper to continue to withhold the writ and do privo the people of Mayo of their representation. He thought the objection which existed wasno longer tenable, and entertained no objection to the motion. (Hear.) The motion was then agreed to. • SIR HENRY HAVELOCK—THE QUEEN'S MESSAGE. On the motion of Lord PALMERSTON the house resolved itself into committee for the purpose of considering the l following message from her Majesty " Victoria Regina—Her Majesty being desirous of con ferring a signal mark of her fa Your and approbation on Major-General Sir Henry Havelock, Bart., K.C.8., for the etuiment and distingniihed services rendered by him in command of a. body of BritiAa, and native troops in paths? and particularlarly for the gallant and successful operations undertaken for the,telief of . the garrison of Lucknow, re , comniends to the House of Lords to concur in enabling her Majesty to make provision for securing to Major-General Sir Henry Havelock a provision of 1,0001. per annum for the term of his natural life." (Cheers.) Lord PALMERSTON then rose to perform a duty most agreeable to himself, and one the performance of which, be was quite sure, would be gratifying to the house, and that was to move a resolution in accordance with her Majesty's recommendation. (Cheers.) It was almost unnecessary for him to say a single word in recommendation of the vote, which would afford every member of the house the highest gratification. (Cheers.) It had been said that India was fertile in heroes. India had also been fertile in those events which had given to British subjects in that country opportunities of displayin g those great and h ero i c qua liti es which redounded so much to the honour of the nation. Amongst those who had of late so much distinguished themselves few bad been more fortunate or so fortunate in that respect as Sir H, Havelock. (Cheers.) Sir Henry Havelock was an officer who had served with greatdistine tion in almost all the operations which of late years had taken place in India—having gained great distinction in the Burmese and Affghanietan wars. Wherever, in short, British troops had been called upon to a c t f or the honour,mainte nanceoftheHavelock there Sir Henry deilckgonitY'and interests of th e coun t r y, had held a most prominent and distinguished positiOn. (Cheers.) Darin.- the recent ope rations to which the vote now before the awe more i m me' diately referred, Sir H. Havelock had in the short space of of about two months gained nine or ten victories by a very iaferior against a very superior numerical force, and in the course of those brilliant operations he not only defeated 9 or 10 times, but captured about 70 pieces of cannon. The two men who had gained the greatest and most signal military successes during the recent military operations in India were Sir H. Havelock and Gen. Wilson. (Cheers.) Sir H. Havelock belonged to the Queen's Service, and there fore her Majesty had recommended the grant now proposed. General Wilson belonged to the East India Company's ser vice, and the company claimed the right of granting to that gallant officer, the captor of Delhi, that amount which her Majesty now recommended the house to vote to Sir Henry Havelock. Her Majesty had conferred on these two gallant officers the dignity of baronet, and had also conferred on them that other distinction which was greater than any title—ho meant that military order which was an object of the higheetarnbition, and the greatest stimulus to the ex ertions of every soldier. It was usual when a military order was conferred for the Sovereign to invite Parliament to partake in the most agreeable of all duties—that of ac knowledging and rewarding the services of those who had so distinguished themselves. (Cheers.) But in rewarding such services Parliament ought also to commemorate the actions of others who had not had the good fortune to per form any such specific exploits. They ought not to forget the chivalrous conduct of General Outram, who having by superior rank and position obtained the command of the troops, yet with that delicacy of feeling which was the concomitant of true courage voluntarily abstained from taking the command from Sir Henry Havelock, and placed himself as a volunteer under the orders of that gallant officer—(cheors)—in order that the man who had under gone such fatigues, dangers, and exertions in his endea vours to relieve Lucknow should not be deprived by the arrival of a superior officer of the glory of completing the duty which he had undertaken. (Cheers.) It was im possible to enumerate the names of all those who had acquired distinction during the recent calamitous events, but he might particularly mention those of Greathed, Eyre, Salkeld, and Home---(cheers)—together with the names of two gallant officers who had lived and died in the service of the country—Neill and Nicholson—whose loss the coun try must very deeply deplore. (Hear, hear.) Then there was Sir John Lawrence--(cheers)--a most able administra tor, who had in the most a d m i ra bl e mane e : organ i se d th e military and civil resources of the province under his con trol, and thus rendered the greatest services to this empire. (Cheers.) General Wheeler, who had been placed in the most difficult and dangerous position, had unfortunately fallen in the service of his country, but his name would be hold in remembrance as well as those of Chamberlayne, Cotton, and Edwards. (Cheers.) He might g o on adding to the list, for there w as h ar dl y a s i ng l e offi cer who kad been called upon during these unfortunate events to per form his duty who had not acted in a manner which en titled him to have his name enrolled in the annals of the military fame of this country. (Cheers.) But at the present moment his duty was confined to the resolution relating to the grant to General Havelock, which he now begged to submit to the house. (Cheers.) Sir J. PAKINGTON had great gratification in seco, d ing the motion which had been proposed in terms so just and proper by the noble lord. (Cheers.) He entirely con curred with the nobl.i lord in the belief that there could be no difference of opinion as to the propriety of the step now proposed. On the contrary, he believed that all parties in the house cordially concurred in the resolution. (Cheers.) If any doubt could exist on the subject it must be whether the grant was commensurate with the public feeling. (Hear, hear.) He felt great satisfaction at the manner in which the noble lord had coupled the names of Sir Henry Havelock and General Wilson. The public gratitude was due to one commander as much as the other. (Cheers.) Considering the climate, the time of the year, the number of battles fought, and the distance marched, he believed that the progress of Sir Henry Have lock and his devoted band of heroes deserved to be re corded amongst the most brilliant military achievements. (Cheers.) Not lees conspicuous had been the services of General Wilson and his forces at Delhi. Although the war there was of a different nature, the troops were ex posed to the same kind of hardships as those of Sir H. Havelock. They also had to encounter the difficulties arising from the climate, and the incessant, and almost daily attacks of the enemy, whose force was greatly supe rior to his own. And it should also be borne in mind that the enemy were not only enormously superior in point of numbers, but were arnfed with weapons which we had put into their hands; and yet, although the relative supe riority, man for man, of the Europeans over the native Indians was as great at the present time as in former days, notwithstanding the discipline which they had been taught, it must be remembered that throughout the contest the native troops had shown great skill and power in that int , pottant arm of war, the artillery. (Hear, hear.) If the authority of the Crown in India should shortly be restored —and he trusted that would be the case—it would be mainly owing to the heroic valour of the troops under Sir Henry Havelock and General Wilson, who, notwithstand ing their slender numerical strength, had succeeded in stemming that torrent of revolt by which British power in India at one time seemed to be in danger of being over whelmed. (Cheers.) He was glad that the noble lord had done justice to the great and generous conduct of General Outram. (Cheers.) He believed that there never was an incident more creditable to the honour and good feeling of a British soldier than the generosity shown by that dis• tinguished man, in the order of the day issued by him, wherein he abandoned the position which he had the right to claim, and resolved that Sir Henry Havelock should not be interrupted in his honourable and well-deserved pro gress. (Cheers.) It was his earnest hope and prayer that , the neat accounts from India would bring,the intelligence that Sir Henry Havelock had entirely succeeded in his grand object of rescuing Lucknow from the imminent danger in which it had been placed. (Cheers.) Let them, while they were paying just honour to the men who com manded, not forget the heroic gallantry of the forces they had under them. (Hear, hear.) Nothing but the heroic bravery of the forces under Generals Havelock and Wilson could have surmounted the difficulties by which they were surrounded. He hoped ho should not be unduly encroaching upon what was no doubt the province and the proper duty of her Majesty's Government, bat be could not refrain from saying that, considering how diminished these two little bands were, considerin g how few still sur vived, who had either gone through the whole siege of Delhi, or had followed Havelock in his triumphant march —he could not help feeling a strong impression that it might be considered not inexpedient by those who advised the crown that some distinguished honour and reward should be conferred on the remnant of those gallant bands, to whom this country owed a debt of-gratitude which it was impossible for us ever to pay. It was with these feel ings that he heartily concurred in the proposition made by the noble lord, and he begged leave to second it. Mr. BRISCOE need scarcely say how cordially he con curred in what had fallen from the noble lord and the right hon. Bart. ; but he could not help making a suggestion, which lie trusted might be favourably received. He wished to add to the resolution a clause that the pension should after the death of Sir H. Havelock be enjoyed by the next successor to the title. _ _ The CFI AIRRAN intimated that it was not competent for the hon. member to move as amendment increasing the sum proposed. Mr. BRISCOE said he Would not move it, but he would throw it cut as a suggestion for theconsideration of the First Lord of the Treasury. It might not generally be known that Gen. Havelock was between 60 and 70 years of age ; he had a son who had received the Victoria cross, and therefore, considering the danger to which the life of Sir Henry Havelock was exposed, he thought it would be a consola tion for him to know that there would be some provision made for his son, without which provision a title would be a very inadequate reward. Gen. Havelock, indeed, might almost be saiil to have preserved to this country the empire of India. He would not say a word on that part of the subject, but ho heartily suggested that the pension should be extended to the life of the son. The annuity to Lord Gough was 2,000/. and it was to go to the next successors to the title. lie di d not think there was a single indivi dual who heard him who did not concur in the suggestion that he made. (Hear, hear.) Admiral WALCOTT, as a member of the sister service, could not help expressing his admiration of the splendid services of General Havelock. He did not know which to admire most, the rapid marches and glorious victories of Havelock or the soli-denial of Outran). The noble lord at the heal of the Government had expressed in terms so graceful, so spirited, and so applicable, his sense of the services of the officers and men, that it would ill befit him to enlarge on that subject ; but there was one topic which the noble lord omitted, and which he was sure would com mand the response of the house, and that was the sublime heroism which had led women to unhesitatingly sacrifice their own lives rather than submit to dishonour. He had but one other word to add, and in that he believed he car ried with him the feeling of his profession, that an oppor tunity might be afforded to the blue jackets to imitate the conduct of the red jackets. Sir W. CODRINGTON should be very sorry if this re solution were to pass without a military man expressing his belief that the feelin g o f t h e en ti re p r ofession was in unison with the strong f ee li ng of the house on this subject. Nothing that they had heard of could exceed the gallantry, the determination, an I the constancy under the extreme of difficulties that had been characteristic both of the marching, of the endurance, and of the positive fighting of General Havelock's division and of the troops before Delhi who were under perpetual attacks, n ot only while they were under the comm an d of General Wilson, but while they were under General Barnard, who bad the greatest difficulties to encounter. He started amid the revolt, when there were not fit preparations for moving troops, but he and General Anton were determined that the troops should march to Delhi. When they arrived before Delhi Gen. Barnard saw the enemy in p osse ssion of an imp ortant position, and although he x vy fighting and marching had' taken place, he induced his troops to take from the enemy the position they then h e ld, a nd t h a t p p e ition had been held by our troops from that timo to the presen t, and was the e flee nal means of s:curing tho capture of Delhi. Gen. B:rnzud was at ticked t en ti mes in less than 20 days, Emil when it was n C) leeted th It there was a constant accession of mutineers int, Delhi, it •would bo seen that he was worthy of the gratitude of his a uatry. It was ill conse quence of Gen. Barnard's maintaining that position under all those difficulties that Gen. Wilson was able to take the city. So strongly, did Gen. Wilson feel the difficulty, that it was a question with him whether, if he did not get re lieved, he should fail back. He said, th en they must go back to the officer who obtai ne d that position. Having waited with patience' with bravery, and determin ation, l and having received his suppli es , no thing could be fin er pan the preparations and th e assau lt o f Delhi. We hail to deplore a great loss—the Lis of General Nicholson and of other great officers, to whom the house and the country owed the greatest possible gratitude. We had also to de- i plum the loss of Gen. Neill. lie had come froei service m th e Crimea, where he was in command of the T141461/C°ll. was an army eq .- nal:if net - superior, in numbers to their own, that fortress having a vast accumulation of all the materials of war. The allies were at a distance from their resources, but they conquered ; they took the place, which was considered impregnable ; and instead of failing in a strategic point of view, they gained an advantage which enabled the allies to conclude a peace with Russia, by which Russia engaged not to have a naval arsenal in the Black Sea, and instead of having - a fleet of 26 or 28 sail of the line there, was bound to have only 10 small vessels for po lice and customs. He thought that his hon. friend, if he would allow him to call him so--(a laugh)—would, on re flection, see that he was altogether wrong. Mr. F. CROSSLEY was understood to express an opin ion that the reward to General Havelock, as measured in money, was too small. The resolutimewas then put and unanimously agreed to. The house then went into committee of supply; Mr. Fitzroy in the chair. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in answer to Sir D. Norreys, said it was not intended to take any vote in supply before Christmas. The vote just agreed to was a charge on the consolidated fund. A formal resolution having been agreed to that supply be granted to her Majesty the house resumed. BANK ISSUES INDEMNITY BILL. The house went into committee on this bill. On clause 2, Mr. MALINS remarked that by the letter of the Govern ment the issues were unlimited, According to the returns in the Gazette, if this letter had not been issued the amount of notes in reserve would have been only 280,0001. He dis approved of the proviso that 10 per cent. discount should be charged as long as there was any Over-issue. It was a larger rate of interest than had ever been known in this country sincethe bank wasfounded in 1697. Mr. Chapman, in his evidence before the committee, said he did not think any new trade could be carried on if there was such a rate of interest. Did Government mean to proclaim that all new transactions were to be stopped for the next 12 or 15 months? The consequence of this high rate of interest had been that produce - had fallen ruinously low. The price of iron rails in South Wales had fallen from 81. a ton to 51. By the return in Friday's Gazette it appeared that the gold in the Bank was 7,356,4671., and that the notes in the hands of the public were 21,102,4301. The gold in the banking department was 300,0001. or 400,0001. ; the re mainder was in the issue department, and was locked up. In the appendix to the report-of the committee there was a table showing the circulation. He had carefully looked it over to ascertain how long it was since the notes held by the public had gone below 18,000,0001., and he found that had occurred' only once, in December, 1841, when it was 17,803,0001., and the following week it was 18 227,0001. He considered, therefore, that it was improbable, if not impossible, that the circulation should fill below 18,00,00001. The average circulation being thus about 21 millions, the amount of gold kept by the Bank against that sum being 7 millions, and the smallest amount below which the notes in possession of the public could be re duced being 18 millions, it was clear that the stock of gold in the Bank could never be reduced below 3 millions, or 3 millions and a half. What necessity was there, then, for distressing the commercial community, by keeping the rate of interest at an unprecedented height, in order to preserve the gold from being sent out of the country ? The experience of the ten years before the passing of Sir R. Peel's showed that the minimum average of notes in pos session of the public was 16 millions, and since then it had never been less than 18 millions. They had thus gone on for twenty years with the notes never below 14 millinna ; and why then should they abstract from the public a rate of interest so prejudicial to all the great in terests of the country ? For when the Bank late of inte rest was even 7 per cent,, the interest actually paid by the shopkeeper and the farmer was always from 3 to 5 per eent. more. And what was the effect of the present state of things ? They might read in th daily papers, and in the trade reports every Monday morning ; from which i tap peared that there was hardly a mill in Manchester at the present moment that was working full time. He did not deny that the monetary collapse in America might have had some share in bringing about our troubles, but that share was a trifle compared with the effects produced by a feeling being universal, that every prudent man ought to suspend his trading operations so long as the rate of interest remained so high. (Hear.) It bad been said the other night that the profits of trade would never pay a rate of interest as le . gh as 10 per cent.— why then maintain that rate at such a point? The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that he was only following the precedent of 1847; but what was that precedent? The rate of interest in 1817 was 51 per cent., and the Government authorised the Bank to infringe the law provided they charged 8 per cent. The public would never have tolerated discounts at that price but for the re laxation of the law ; but the operation of the act had been gradually to familiarise them the seven and even eight per cent., although it ha! not enabled them to bear a high rate one whit the better. (Hear, hear.) Take the case of mort gages. The land, they knew, onlyyielded 3 per cent.; and how could they pay 10? If that rate were kept, the land must, in the conies, of a few years, change its proprietors. Take again railway property. It appeared that there were debentures upon railways amounting to 160 millions, a large portion of which required to be renewed every month. Those railways could either not get their debentures re newed, or they must submit to ruinous terms. The evil effects of the present state of things upon the agricultural, the railway, the shipping, and the commercial community could 'hardly therefore be exaggerated ; and in the mean time there was not the slightest necessity for it; the con vertibility of the note not being in the slightest degree en dangered. Twice, however, the Bank had been in danger of stoppage for want of notes, and because they had locked up so large an amount of gold in th e i ssue d epar t men t. H e had therefore moved that the proviso of the clause before the committee be expunged, and then the issuing of notes would be left wholly within the discretion of the Bank. SirJ. TRELA.WNEYeaid that the effect of the hon. and learned gentlernau's doctrine was that the Bank should carry on its discounting operations in a manner advantage ous to the agricultural, the railway, and the commercial community; and that if it sustained any loss, the British public should come forward and pay. In 1844 he (Sir J. Trelawney) wasadisciple of thp hon. gentleman the member for Davenport, who published an able series of articles in the _Economist in fa Jour of free, trade in banking. The fact was, however', that the house was performing a sort of political quadrille. They had given up the idea of a slid ing scale with regard to corn, and now they wished to re tain it with respect to gold. If they were going to have a Bank committee, they ought to have upon it some person who was a pure sceptic—some one who was not pretenti ous, and did not pretend to be well-informed. He was such a person., (Loud laughter.) He wished to be informed, ACCIDENTS FROM THE FOG. Yesterday the metropolis and the onus of informing him lay with the house. He be- lieved that they bad no diagnosis, and that they were and surrounding suburban districts were ehnvel,nopseeduienneaes dense a fog as has visited us for years, at sea. It had been well said that "fools rush e d in where of which, we regret to say, has bees aettoend latter rency, but with regard to all matters relating t o soc i a l et? with angels feared to tread," and he was afraid th e y bad done that too often, not only with regard to questi ons o f can" many serious accidents and loss of property, the chiefly amongst the craft upon the river. The inten political economy. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not sity of the fog wai from about half - p ast one o'clock until subscribe to all the doctrines which h a d b een l a id down by six, during which time neither fo A - passe n g e rs n o r vehicles could proceed but at a " snail's pace." The the hon. baronet; but he so far agreed with him that he collisions were without number amongst the different thought it would not be advisable or the house to expunge vehicles, and although torches were in plentiful requisi the proviso to which the hon. and learned gentleman oh- tion the availed bat little, owing to the denseness of jetted. 1847 the Government inserted, and in his (Sir G. the ' vapo y ur. Numbers of persons were knocked down, Lewis's) opinion very properly, a condition in the authority which they gave the Bank to infringe the law, namely, that and more or less injured, and ne a r ly e th co e n w se ho u l e e n o c f es tb o e f hospitals received casualties from th the rate of interest should not be less than 8 per cent. y ' so long as the Lanka vailed itself of the privilege which the a boats tm o Government was willing to concede. At that time the a t the fog, have b terminated aat present fatally.it c a n n o ia t ,i b n e y ascertained oli on also whether took rate of interest was 52 per cent., and the Government sisted that if the law was infringed the Bank should not - o s n un t k h . o river, Between iin s p be la in ce g lend money at less than eight per cent. The rate was sphere became comparatively clear. six or ne and in a s t e a v n e c f sb o'clocka bargee a th u e d ansemsrer.i— SIGIIT AND HEARING -- SPECTACLES-- cordingly raised that amount, and to that amount itstosood for about three weeks. In the present case the government e had stipulated that the Bank should no t , if it infringed the Geesses. — S. P_ owitaver. TEaI.nEdSCOPHE.S Solomons, -0R opticians, 39, P A z i a b s e r m EcT ar i l v : law, take loss than the amount o f i n t erest then current— street, Piccadilly. Observe —opposite the York Hotel, W. namely, 10 per cent. The rate of 10 per cent- was not ar- By her Majesty's Royal Letters Patent for valuable and ex bitrarily fixed by the government; the Government only traordina:y improvements in the most powerful and brilliant in point of fact, assumed th a t th e ex t ra i ssue s h oul d no t b e Telescopes, at a less r ite than that, w hi c h was d eman d e d at t h e ti me Glasses, to kcnaomwpt' R ace - c ourse, Opera, and Persp e cti ve he distances. These Telescopes possess by the Bank. The moment the Bank found its affairs so such extraordinary power that some, three and Sehalf inches, far re-established as to render it unnecessary to overstep with an extra eye-piece will show distinctly Jupiter's moons, the dew it would be able t o fi x th e r a te of discount at any Saturn's ring, and the double stars ; with the same telescope ' point it might see fit ; b u t it cer t a i n ly a pp eare d desirable, can be seen a person s countenance three-and-a-half m il es while the law continued to be broken, tact the rate taken distant and an object from 16 to 20 miles. For the waist should not be below the point it had reached when the coat-pocket, and are of larger, and all sizes, with increasing p o wers accordingly, The Royal Exhibiti o n, 1851. -A valu- Government issued the l e tt er . Ile (Sir G. Lewis) under stood that the reserv e was gradually increasing, so that it able, newly-invented, ver y small, powerful, Waistcoat-pocket would not be an over-sanguine expectation to hope that it Glass, the size of a walnut, by which a person can be seen and would soon be a ble to dispense with the privilege which known ono and a-half mile distant. They answer every put , had been conceded to it. On Saturday last the reserve, pose on the Race-course and at the Opera-houses. Country including the gold and silver in banking department, was scenery and ships are clearly seen at 12 to 14 miles. They 3,200,0001., and on Monday it was upwards of 3,F , 00,000/. are invaleable for shooting, deer-stalkins• vachtincr to or more th an a m illi on an d a half b eyon d . t h e extra issue of' sportsmen, gentlemen, gamekeepers, l and arists. Opera, _2 million notes. He (the right hon, gentleman) h o p e d th a t Camp, Perspective, and Race-Course asses with wonderful that state of things wou ld progress,, and thus if the Bank p o w ers , '- Invaluable preservinl , .. e Spectacle' Lenses of the found that the natural rate of'discount was reduced below greatest transparent power. . great advatita,ge derived 10 per cent. it would also be enabled to, take that s t e p, from this invention is, that vision impaired becomes pre ( [leer, bear.) For it was a complete fallacy to suppose th a t i nerved sad strengthened aid very aged persons are enabled ho Bank fixed the universal rate of discount. If th e deal. 3to employ their sight at the most minute occupation—can see inga of the connti y we r e s e c h th a t it w a s profitable t o m one y with those leases of a much less magnify ing power—and lenders 'blend at 10 per cent., they would no doubt do so l they do not require the frequent changes to the dan' without asking the permission of the Bank. The vere fact gerous effects of further powerful assistance. Persons that the prevailing terms of discount were below 1 . 0 per can be suited at tho most. remote part of'tho world by send cent. was'a sufficient proof that the rate fixed by the Bank ing one of the glasses out of their spectaees in a letter, and was not an arbitrary one, but that it merely followed the stating the dist nice from the eye they can read small print natural. course of commerce. (Cheers.) The hon. and with it, and those who have not made use of spectacles by learned gentlemen said that the landowners and railway stating their age. Deafness.—New Discovory.—The Organic proprietors were injuriously affected; but the mercantile Vibrator, an extraordinarily powerful, small, newly-invented the instrument for deatness, entirely retefof interest was not the rate which necessarily fixed rate of all other interests in the country. (Hear.) Would anything of the kind that has beena'sotrhePr there be a greater proof of the independence of rate of dis- surpassing different from all ot t e a e b r i s can, be produced. Being of the same colourskin, is counts charged ou mercantile billerhan the present price of i not perceptible. It enables deaf persons to hear distinct lye' Consols? (Cheers.) If a person wished to invest • funds at the present moment, ho would lll the removed, and it aft cede 10 at public assemblies ; ; the , unpleasant sonsatic n el andcertainly not get singing noises in the ea'r's is entire. 10 per cent. fur his money. (" Hoar, hear," a hu s h.) all the assistance Thu rate of interest-on mortgages and real sem picca t a h i a li t y , possibly could Y be desired.-39. a - 11, 0 1' . 7 -Opposite the York Hotel, W, ri y was also - marle.street, Corps of Royal Marines —Gentleman Cadet Henry Har ford Strong to be Second Lieutenant. COMMISSIONS SIGNED BY LORDS-LIEUTENANT. Linlithgowshire—The Right Hon. David Stuart, Earl of Buchan, to be Depdty-Lieutenant ; Captain Thomas A. Hog the younger to be Deputy-Lieutenant. East Kent Regiment of Mihtia—Assistant-Surgeon Kaylet Curtis to be Surgeon, vice Sicard, resigned. Tower Hamlets—King's Own Light Infantry Regiment of Militia—Edward Houlditch, Esq , to be Captain, vice Pounden, resigned ; Ensign Elijah Littlewood to be Lieu tenant • Robert Ormiston Hayes, Esq. , M.D. , to be As sistant-Surgeon, vice Clarke, resigned. Light Infantry Battalion of the Royal Sussex Militia— Robert Win. May Wetherell, Gent., to be Ensign, vice William Watson Wood, resigned. 2d Regiment of Royal Cheshire Militia—Ensign Wm. A. F. Haugh to be Lieutenant, vice Cawing, promoted ; Ensign Robert Warren to be Lieutenant, vice Yeo, re signed; Thomas Henry Williams, Gent., to be Lieutenant, vice Hamilton, resigned. • Worcestershire Regiment of Militia.—E. Hoste Hick man, Gent., to be Lieutenant, vice Paulet, resigned ; E. Peel, Gent., to he Lieutenant, vice Castle, resigned. Queen's Own Oxfordshire Yeomanry Cavalt y—Captain Frederick Loftus Dashwood to be Adjutant, vice Loid Alfred Spencer Churchill, promoted. BANKRUPTCY ANNULLED. Oliver Horgan Lily, and Elizabeth Eleanor M`Dowall timber merchant!, Brietol. • - . BANKRUPTS. Thomas Bull, vinegar merchant, St. Mary Axe, to sur render Dec. 19, at twelve, and Jan. 22, at half-past eleven, at the Court of Bankruptcy. Jeremiah Hill, railway contractor, Quidbampton, Salis bury, Dec. 17, at twelve, and Jan. 25, at eleven, at the Court of Bankruptcy. William Bromley Filler, merchant, Limo street, City, Dec. 21 and Jan 25, at one, at the Court of Bankruptcy. William Follett., bookseller , Bognor, . Sussex, Dec. 17, and Jan. 21, at twelve, at the Court of Bankruptcy. John Shoard, miller, Bristol, Dec. 21, and Jan. 18, at eleven, at the Bristol District Court. William Shaw, oil and linseed cake dealer, Sheffield, Dec. 19, and Jan. 3J, at ten, at the Leeds District Court. Samuel Farnan, colonial broker, Mincing-lane, Dec. 18, at half-past two, and Jan. 19, at twelve, at the Court of Bankruptcy. John Wright, tobacconist, Barbican, Dec. 22, at half past. eleven, and Jan. 19, at one, at the Court of Bank ruptcy. Thomas Ross, sail maker, West Hartlepool, Dac. 18, at half-past eleven, and Jan. 21, at one, at the Royal-arcade, Neweastle-upon-Tyne. Samuel Welton Johnson, printer, Birmingham, Dec. 18 and ,au. 14, at half-past eleven, at the Birmingham Dis trict Court. William Grundy, hosier, Birmingham, Dec. 21 and Jan. 11, at half past ten, at the Birmingham District Court. John Blackwell, upholsterer, Portsmouth, Dec. 17, at one, and Jan. 25, at twelve, at the Court of Bankruptcy. Miles Lambert, tailor and draper, Liverpool, Dec. 18 and Jan. 14, at eleven, at the Liverpool District Court. Hugh Pickering, brush maker, Burnley, Lancashire, Dec. 18 and Jan. 21, at the Manchester District Court. A. Ogle and Company, engineers, Preston, Dec. 21 and Jan. 21, at twelve, at the Manchester District Court. Pickering Brothers, cotton spinners, Burnley, Lancashire, Dec. 18 and Jan. 22, at, 'twelve, at the Manchester District Court. William Smith and John Newey, soap manufacturers, Smethwick, Staffordshire, Dec. 21, and Jan. 11, at half past ten, at the Birmingham District Court. Itobt. Huntley, shipowner, Hova Villas, near Brighton, Dec. 22, and Jan. 19, ar twelve, at the Court of Bank ruptcy. _ SCOTCH SEQUESTRATIONS. James Macdon4ld, furrier, Glasgow. Ewen Macmillan, coal merchant, Inverness. John Stewart, provision and spirit dealer, Glasgow. George Walter Crawford, writer, Edinburgh. Messrs. John Slagg and Co. report : " The improved demand for India and China goads reported on Tuesday last bas ceased, and the slight aa = vance then realised on them is no longer obtainable. The market, however, having been pretty well cleared of these goods, there is at present no disposition to press sales, and prices are nominally the same as on this day week. In other respects there is no 'change to notice in the market, the demand continuing, on pr • most limited scale, and price still tending downwards. " • Messrs. George Fraser, Son, and Co. report "There bas again been an exceedingly dull market, and prices of yarns suitable for Germany and the North of Europe are again loWer." LEEDS, Dno. 8. - The weather continuing more like spring th an winter, the demand for heavy cloths for the latter season is greatly checked, and the retail dealers ; drapers, and tailors, are doing much leas than 'the usual amount of business at this period of the year. Neither is there any noticeable improvement in the foreign trade, the shipping houses being generally slack. There has been a small attendance of buyers in the cloth-halls this morning, and comparatively few goods changed hands. Waiting, inde.4, or better times, is the order of the day. Happily there 'are no failures of consequence to report in this town or the neighbourhood, and the stability of the district, in a mercantile point of view, is un• shaken. HUDDERSFIELD, DEC. 8. There has been more business done in cloths to day, and there is a better feeling in the trade. Ge nerally lower prices are offered, yet for the more saleable fabrics there is not much reduction. All things considered, a fair bulk of goods has changed hands, and there is a general impression that affairs are improving. The best kinds of wool maintain late prices, but there is a little reduction fur the low kinds. STATE OF TRADE. MANCHESTER, DEC. 8. The market for manufacturea , is . exceed ingly fiat and lifeless. Shillings and other cloths, to the sale of which last weeks the news from India and China imparted a little vitality, are again neglected, and are lower in price. They may now be bought at about lid. per piece under the rates of last week, and yarns have also lost rather more than the improved value of last week, cop and other twist suitable, for manufac tures being purchaseabl e a t a b ou t id s . per lb. under the rates of Tuesday last. The Germans have mani fested some little disposition to do business in yarns, but no operations worth naming are reported. The depression in this market is, on the whole, quite aS great as it was last week, and the moat ruinous Cori cessions in price fail to attract buyers. From 30,0001. to 40,0001. of the loss occasioned by tilt) stoppage of Messrs. J. and G. Adam, calico printers, Glasgow, will fall, it is reported, upon firms in Manchester. Country Markets. LIVERPOOL—DEa. 8. - At this morning's market, though we had not a good attendance of buyers, yet a fair busine ss was done in wheat and flour at a small reduction on Friday's prices, making the decline on the week 4d to 6d per bushel en wheat, and is to 2s per barrel and sack on flour. Prime American red wheal sold at 7s, and fair " oats "at 6s per Vlb. Indian corn, oats, oatmeal, beans, and peas all supported lap" rates. HULL— DEO. 8. A very fair attendance to-day; but a very slow market. Wheat may be quoted 2s to 3s lower. Wheat, English red, 48s to 51s ; white 563 to 6Cs; P oats, 2Ps to 323; barley, 42s to 46s ; Indian corn, 39,3 • linseed cakes, Hull, 11103 to l —s Od; ditto, foreign, 8/ 15s to 101103 ; rape cakes, 61 5s Od to 6/ 10s ; guano, El. to 151. ; bones, 140 s Od.; flour, —s to —s; tares, —s to —B.. • LEEDS—DEO. 8. A moderate "show of wheat and a slow trade—best sorts have declined is to 2s from Friday's rates, and common sorts are scarcely noticed. Barley slow, and recedes in, value. Oats and beans in limited demand. Other articles as before. Average prices of grain—Wheat, 48s lid ; bailey, 37 8 4d ; oats, 30a —d ; beans, 41s 2id ; peas, 395 6d; rye, —s. Od: NEWCASTLE--DEa. 8. Farmers' wheat in small supply, and Saturday's prices with difficulty obtained. South country and foreign wheat neglected. Flour du'l and rather lower. Haley without inquiry. Oats held for full prices, but nothing doing. KIRKCALDY—Dso. 5. A moderate supply today, but safes slow, the quality not being so good. Prices same as last week. Wheat. I Barley. Oats. I Beans. First 566 Od I 30s Od 2es Od 1 Os Od Second 49s Od I 27s Oct 22s Oct 'Os 01 Third 34s Od I 21s Od f 18/3 Od Os Od Mr. Thomas Curti., of the firm of Curtis add Harvey, has been elected a director of the Aoglo - Mexican Mint Company, in place of Mr. J. D. Powles, who has resigned. BIRTHS. KENT—On the 9th inst., at Campden Grove, Kensington, the wife of William Charles Keat, Esq., of a son. ARMITAGE —On the 7th inst., at Upper Holloway, the wife of the Rev. Edward Armitage, of a son. KING —On the 7th inst., at 8, Lowndes•street, the wife of Henry King, Esq., of a daughter. RowLerms—On the 7th inst., at 18, Kildare-gardens, the wife of Christopher Rowlands, Esq. STuenT—On the 6th inst., at Leamington, the wife of Colonel Charles S. Stuart, of a son. MARRIAGES. • BIRKBECK — LUBBOCK--011 the Bth inst., at DOWIIe, Kent, B. Birkbeck, Esq., fourth son of tho late Henry Birkbeck, Esq.. of Keswick, Norfolk, to Mary Harriett, the eldest daughter of Sir John William Lubbock, Bart., of High Elms, Dorn°, Kent. GALE—DYKE —On the Bth inst., at St. James's, Piccadilly , • Mr. James T. Gale, of Orplands, parish of Bra,dwell-juxta" Mare, Essex, to Harriet Eliza, elder daughter of Mr.,Dyko, of the same parish. DEATHS. CLEGG —0 n the Bth inst., at his residence, 3, Devonshire terrace, Marylebono, Edmund Clegg, Esq., formerly, also , of 76, Coleman-street. DAwsoli On the 7th inst., Mr. Thomas Dawson, of 41, High' street, Marylehone, aged 72. LAWS N - On the 6th inst., at St. John's-place, Leeds, Edwd. Lawson, Esq., of the firm of Samuel Lawson a.,d Sons, machinists, Leads, aged 45. Poaatza.,---On the 7th inst., at the Upper Mall, Hammersmith, the Rev. Henry Purrier, late of Kew, Surrey. Sstim—On the 6th inst., at Bri g ht on , Ann Cordelia, daugh ter of John Sydney Smith, of 7, Glocester-square, Hyde park, STONEST REET —On the 6th inst., at Hastings, the Rev. Geo. S. G. Stonestroet, of Stondou. Hall, Essex, Prebendary of Lin coln, and formerly Chaplain to the Guards during the Waterloo campaign, aged 75. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG of No, 112, Strand, Printer, at Tice Sun Olhoe► No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the ;isavoy, In the county of `Middlesex ► Wednesday, December 9, 1357.