The Sun. — London, England, 1817-03-12 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS. [Continued from our Second l'age,] COURTS OF' JUSTICE. Sit Jon N NEWPORT, in calling the attenti on of the House to the proposition he meant to subunit to their consideration, thought it right to state tvliat bad already taken place on this impoftant subject. It would be in the recollection of the House, that nearly three years since .he had, re commended that that sort of inquiry inta,the fees paid in Courts of Justice which had been in use from the earliest and best times, should be re vived, in order to,provide for the restoration of that which had fallen into decay, by directing the vigilant attention of Parliament to the Administra tion of Justice.' Ministers bad been opposed to Wm when he brought this subject forward, but the House had been with him, as lie had the good fortune to carry the motion he had made by a ma jority of .one. He did not think the'House, after coming to this vote, had been dealt fairly within the appointment of the ,Commissioners. Consi derable delay took' place, and at last, of the five persons named on, the Commission, two were Masters in Chancery, who were thus employed to inquire into the abuses of their own C d *tot. •• The result of their labours had however proved • great abuses to exist, and these had been recog, raised by the Order of the Lord Chancellor, dated April 13, 1815. The. alterations made by that order with respect to fees and holidays, proved the system acted upon for the preceding nine years to . . . . have been erro n eous, and the benefit of this change the public owed to the success of that motion.:- It was his intention to submit to the Hons.': two propositions involving the general principles on which he thought the inquiry ought to be regu-, latt.d, and a third for submitting the reports which had hcen made on this subject to the Committees up stairs. It was right under any circumstances that the aggregate amount of fees paid in Courts of Justice should be brought under the view of 'that ,House. An Honourable Gentleman (the IVlember for Norwich) had on a former occasion 'complained of the abuse which prevailed with e4pect to what were called " expedition fees."— Thrhe were fees paid to execute the intsine,ss before tl.e Court. When this was stated, an Honourable Member had risen and denied that any thiug of the kind had ever existed. 'Another Hon. Gent. howeyee had expresied foirprize at bearing this statement, as to his knowledge " expedition fees" were pttid, Which had the effect of causing great inegnalities in the administration of justice. ThrSl' fees had aftermrds been ,alluded to in the Itt;portmade to the House, and,admitted to have at'owedly ex t eed from the year 1758. In this )ieiu t - hese'fees were in part jnstified, ..and the propriety of abolishing them was dOubted:. lie lirowever contended they, ought not, to exist, as they had the effect of 'enabling the rich to Obtain jUstice where'the poor could nay, and thus made a diitinction between persous which it bad long been our boast was unknown in England. In the .fitateinent he had formerly made, he had been in- . formed lie had.not- contemplated. a tenth part ta the extortions illegally practised on the public In the lrislt Courts. He sheaved the benefits to be dprivPd horn the intiniry he had. wished to take place greatly surpassed the accompanying expellee, nod concluded by triovingthree Resolutions.,The first and Second declared that the fees paid on proceedings were to . be. considered a direct • tax levied on suitors to defray the charges of the Jegal es'tablishinent ; that .these ought to. be fixed at 4moderate rate, proportionateto the services performed, and . earried over as far a . s,pos.stble to ti comi:ton fund to Meet the charges of the whole VSiiiblishinienti and' that the augmented taxes on till 13W vroeeetlings made it the ditty of the house sit' commons. not to stiffer any additional charges unnecessarily to full on the subject. The. third Ilpolution went to refer the Reports of the se veral Commissions to a Select. Committee , of 21 Members of that ki 9 iise, Who were to report their opinions' on the best mode of carrying any new regldatinns into effect.: Lofil CASTLEIIRAG# thought the Hon. Baronet (night' to nave stated, when'he noticed the oppo t ion his former Motion had niet with from. Mi. tii , ders, that it wig objected tn, because the rounds he had kid ,%vere not sufficiently. broad to the inquiry railed fur into the state of the Courts v)1 Justice in England. It was admitted that so:licicnt grounds been shewn ta. justify no inquiry into the state cif the Courts of Ireland, and trt this if his Anemory did not fail hint, uo olieel ion was made. Though such inquiries of ten I.rought,out important facts affecting 'depart ments against which no charge was preferred in the first instance,, yet he did not think, when the es pence attendant tot t hem . was conskiered (one of them had cost the public 147,0001.) it was well to enter upon them for the chance of fishing nut ; ,- itilerliing worth knowing, without a sufficient guun'd being laid in the first instance. The in ylity formerly called for by the lion, Baronet, was cxf ended to England and was now in progress, twit ill the Wheel's charged veitiAlt were found wanting in their duty, he slid not think the Cites tt iinght to interfere, kse set forth the iwonvettienCe3 would result froin their r:ll'.'ngling themselves in ',such 4. difficult ail& compllented inytiry. This tQu be contended was (Hte unnecessary', as:the reports were now under the Lord Chancellor's eye, and intended. to be acted upon. ',the Lord Chancellor hand lost not a monomt in looking at the fees which had been ta'ot ice 4 in then), and had resolved, without giving the subject any.very, nice consitierption, aLonce ilo'awity those r oil the. PropriOfy of . vylij e l) any, e,iald be entehained. Ile had firo !poked . to the tees of office; and next proceeded to;the more if flititt inquiry into those ul tine prOresikiti. Ile justified the course which h t ea pursued former tie` . tiort itr* pawing two Masters of A•tCet'v to be, aft : the Commission. Had thi s . been (1,,,w, he 'feared 'a very imperfect report IW.ht have exrweted. Others, could not nava 111 'y 111 ''tftotS it 40 Fur: his own part he could I.:rd'y have made tjad or 1 , 1;1 of it. With reined t o whet was called " Expedition Fees,'' though 90 . 41 it gr.w Out of the practice w i t h ti t t,tet, y e connected, be thought noghi tff be 1;1)01;3:hc:il,. 44, ti ter,ocd to. bring . practice of Our (auct*, nano jistruit. ite I! to sespeed their jtelgrnent on the matt e rs hi-might osoler their consideration by the Hon, Beeonet ; to leave those who were now responsible for the inquiry to act in the first initanee, and afterwards to interfere if they shoeld prove negligent, as eireemstances might require. He expressed a hope that the Hon.'Baronet would be content to withdraw his' motion ; and eon , cluded by moving We previous question. Mr. WEBBFA opposed the motion of the Hon. Baronet" as unnecessary. Mr. Poesoeer said, time memory of the Noble Len al hail failed him, or he had: been much misin formed on the subject of the reception formerly given to the motioti of the lion. Baronet. It had been opposed by the . Government in every part.— Mr. Stephen, then a Member of the House, hid said, it any Alves could be proved in his oflice, be would vote for the motion. The proof w as given ; Mr. Stephen honourably kept his word, voted against the l . linisters, and, by his single vote, the motion had been carried. The expenee of such inquiries might be made small or great, as beg suited the views of time Government for the time hying. The Noble Lord thought it would be pret»ature to refer the Reports which had al ready been made to a Committee, .and wished - to wait till the whole subject could be. referred to them at once. He thought it might be better to send them to a Committee as they were made, than to keep them till they could be disposed of altogether, ashen they would have to wait a long time for the Report. He doubted th e soundnes s of the Noifle Lerd's . argument on this point. If time Noble Lord *mild state a red... sonable time, he would recommend to his Hon. Fs lend to withdraw his'motion till that particular. time. But to put it .off to an 'indefinite period, would be only a device to get rid of the question altogether. Ell-. ',Hsu FOSTSR defended the conduct of the Commissioners who had been a ppoitited to inquire into the subject, 'and contended that more time was necessary to enable them to make their Re port. He stated that since" Lord Herdwick's case . there had been no increase in the fees of the Masters in Chancery, and' that in all the other branches of Chancery no increase or very little had taken place. He was of opinion, that if the Commissioners were to sit every day, they would not be able to finish their report before the end of, the'present Session: He maintaieed;' that all the. fees received , by the Lora Chancellor were . just and moderate, 'though it was impossible to com pare them with those of former times, as the Re port of 1743 had not stated their amount. He also stated that Lard Eldon had voluntarily given up fees to the amount of 10001. a .year, which other Chancellors had received, to the persons to whom they were ostensibly paid.' Sir 3. Nr wrour would not have objected to put off his motion to a particular time, but could not consent to indefinite delay, which would entirely defeat his object. lie went .over his former grounds, and contended that the Lord Chaucelloe had'only given up the 10001. alluded to, after the Commission bud been appoieted, He complained. of the largenesis of stamp ditties. lie thought they formed, it most unjost tax,. and tended, in many cases, to deprive seitoes oaf .their rights, merely because they were poor. ~He shomdd per sist hehis motior, toeless the Noble Lord should ft's particular time for the' Preduction of the Report. Lord CAStLEIMAGII could not accede to the re quest of the lion. Baronet, who ,would always have it in his power to call, the attention of the Home to the subject when he pleased. Honse theti di Wed— For the Motion Againstit 63 Islajority against it —47 The other Resolutions were them negatived. • DUTIES ON TIMBER. Mr. V. l'lrzoiß.►LD.uudel'stood a .Right lion. Gentleman opposite (Mir.• Ponsonby) to have stated. on a lot mer occasion, that the duties .on the importation of timber into Ireland were higher than 'those on the importation of the same article into. England. Fle wished to know in what re tweets that difference existed, for he thought that if any thing the balance was in favour of Ireland. Mr. PoNSoNBY bad not said that the duties were higher, but that they operated more severely oh Ireland than in England, through the. tnotle in which they were levied. Boards paid the saint importation . deity as timber, and 'the freight 'of foreign .vessels was • charged higher for Ireland than England. Mr. V, FtTZO,F,UALP said, that if the duties ope rate& in such a manner, it wits eotitrari to the in tent ions of the Lord-Lieu,tena»t. ‘ • Mr. Aasv•ruNoT presented Papers relative to the Pees of Officers in Courts of Law and Equity. Ordered to lie on table. lIARSIT IMPRISONMENT. Sir S. ROMILLY presented a petition from Michael l3ayly, who,had been confined more than two years in the Canongate gaol, at Etlinhargh, as a Common malefactor, in a dungeon, without any adequate Min for Lis detentiun.—Tbe peti tion, was teall,'enti ,o.rciered to lie on the table. Mr. BRNNIIin complained that several per sons in a state of lunacy were confined in the Cold Bethfields priion, though they lipid been found lunatic by juries, and were improper objects for n common prison there ought, be said, to be a place of reception for criminal lunatics.% POLICE IN IRT: SND Mr. Pan rose for the puiprise of asking lea ie to bring in a Bill to amend the Act which be had introduced during the Session of 1814, to provide for the better execution of the laws in Ireland, by enabling the Lord Liebtenant to appoint, in the ilisttirlred districts, a superintending Magistrate and a sufficient number of peace officers. Ann ther-Act, the InsOrreetion - Act, - bad passed at the same time, Ina on this he should for-the present offer no continent. If he 'were called upon. to state what measure he thotight would have the most beneficial effect in Ireland, he should reply, the enhstiftation of an effective civilpower lit dot country. When he considered, the disturbances and outrages, which were the consequences of ancient feints in Ireland, he was not astonished at their existence . , but at their not befit:{; still more considerable.„ Ireland had the same Courts, the same Laawi, and the same Judges as tlreat Britain • but it was nthcrably deficient in the minor . , • agents . of , Police, who were so `necessary to the execution of those - laws. Their place was now supplied in a manner both object - it-triable . and expensive, by the employment of a military force, which w as at all 011)6 a cumbrous and bur thensonte instrument. Yet there was .at present no other.to be used for the suppression of illicit. distillation, the p revent i o n of future, and the de tection of past offences. How inapplicable it was . to the attainment of those two objects could not fail to strike every mind. It was necessary to consider of the means best calculated to supply the deficiency of the Civil Power, and to deter miue, after a balance of evils, in favour of a mode less expew,ive, more constitutional, and far more effective tkan the employment of the military.— (Hear, hear !)—The expellee attendant on the latter mode did not consist merely its the pay of soldiers ; the erection of barracks cost considerable sums. It also. occasioned the subversion . of the discipline of the most orderly regiments. The men were divided into smell parties, and after having been employed in the humiliation of the greatest despotism that had ever existed, and while they still wore the badges of hpnonr won in battle on their breasts, they were reduced to put down private stilli, and to lose that discipline iji which they were indebted for a large portion of their glory. It was with a view to dispense with employment of the military. that he had 'pro posed the Act, of 1814, which had met with the unaninionsnpprolmtion of the !loose. • Ile trusted that his present meesure would be equally well received, espe c ially by an li on . Baronet opposite (S . ir John Newport), whom he bad always found, though.opposed to him in politics, more desirous to provide efficient measures for the good of the country of which lie was a native, and to which be did h onour , t h an to throw any difficulty' in their way, because they proceeded from his politiCal antagonists.--(Hear, Leer The Act of 1814 had been carried into execution in six instances. Three cases had. occurred in the county of Tipperary, and the others in the coun ties of , LoWth, Clare, 'and'Carrick. The people looked upon the operation of this Act as a source of peat and lasting benefit, and When the regularity and obedience to the laws Willett it produced,were considered, the expellee with which it was et. tended would be looked upon as a cheap purchase. In some cases, however, it had not been possible to carry it into execution, on account of that very expence, the wholeof which was, according to the Act as it now stood, to be borne by the dis turbed diitricts. Some parts were so poor and so exhausted that they could not support that expence. lu one instance, Government had.been compelled to assume' a power not given .by the law. This was in a certain district of the county of Done gal, in theextremenorth of Ireland, wh ere illi c i t distillation was carried on to themost considerable extent, and the operatiqo of the laws was com pletely obstructed. Persons, there were .assisted with horses and large bodie s . of meu, whenever any effort was made to take them. A Magistrate had been sent to that district with fifty dra goons to protect him, over whom he acted as-Brigade 111ajor, and the expence, which was pretty con.; siderable, was borne by the Government. It was to provide against the recurrence of 'such cases that he should propose the followitsg ettacttneuts. lay the law as it now, stood, the appoitstment of peace oflieers in ailistriet ,could not take place Without that of a superintending Magistrate, so that if another district became disturbed, the num ber of officers could not be increased without also augmenting the magisterial staff. He should now propose' to dispense with the - latter, and to place MO at , more districts undue the superintendence of the same tnagistrate,, with a 'sufficient. number of constables. The next alteration would be to give the Lord Lieutenant the ,power of determining what portion of the expence should be borne by the disturbed district, and what by the public purse, and to let the, forMer.ect as a fine oh the seat'Of the d;sturbances. The last woad: be, in order to provide against the abuse of this power, to enact that returns should be made 'every' Ses sion to Parliament, of the instances in which the Act had been applied, of 'the expences in elated, and of the appointmenti made ' under it. lie allowed that it would be •Mbre agree: able to employ the population to. keep the' peace, as in England ; but he appealed ,to any Gentleman conversant with Ireland, whether title!) . tt plan would he practicable. It was not more than forty years sioce any police whatever had been - introduced into Ireland, and it would be hopeless to find indivinualfready to asinine the dangerous situation of peace-Oflieers in that coun try, without providing an 'alleenate remuneration for , them. Ile had flow the: satisfaction to state, that not only was Ireland exempted, from the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus, and the Bill to prevent Seditious Assemblies, hut that it Was in tended -to reduce the militnry force employed in that couutry'from twenty'-five thousand to twenty- two thousand nien. The ordnance, which- con sisted of seven brigadeti and 400 guns, would'also be diminished to 200 guns, and the reduction of expence would be proportionate: Should the . present measure relieve Ireland from only t cvo regiments, yet the saving woultt be very consider ahle; It was not merely on the point of expence, howeveri that the lIIICEISMC Was iMportent ; it would habituate the Irish people to acknowledge a Civil Power, - awl it weithl then become practi-' Cable to dispense with 'that: more severe and ..- pensive mode, which it Avas - still necessary for time the present to adopt. lie concluded by asking leave to bring in a Mil to amend the bib of his Majes ty, and expressing his disposition to give every' !9iSPiurrtj".llNitiewtoeoltiTsCitlisesvetrbdeontlibeat:durteltahtlitilYie greatest Islv(omunldwbielieliblehe;intHnrotltettilo°ll)l.loctf ca6lirreegi'ularirl'rre':)llli6ctel, substituted to that military 'force which bad Out raged time - . the felelleintghsotillg%lt aliti m e en p l atedi t i ti n t 'e w c,t h -l i c e ln li s ti o te f Bill was founded strictly constitutiOnal, and that th e e ra i r t u re e s n e t 7 -mode was e steps o retracing the f C :end retu rn i ng . towards the right road . front which they had deviated'. Alters it few words front llr. CJLICHRSTER anti Mr. V. FLTZGERALb o Wave was gi ven to bring .its the Bill. • ARM ugY FAITIMATES.* atr.lsactoneN broht upthe report of the army estimates, Mr, CALCRAFT said, he xhould 'defer any obser-, lion o il f u . . rhtion be Might ,w 1 ,31 tomake on tl.isarli i t ) li o. e rta n n ti t i the Committee of. Finance had made thtir , butit that Committee (lid not recommenit! his duty to call the attention of the IlomeW very The resolutions were then read, and lir°, Mr., CuawEN observed, that io esamin, hire laid before the llooset it B P I P !: Cart : tint that there was a charge of lire till provided.for. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER p. that that sum was provided for by vole s °I , M !, Sessiuns ; bitt, front various causes, 4'l'l hear l) ii yet been liquidated. CO in answer to some remarks from Mr.Ca , i istuabriyeefto.rie(,abecar,sloall enott,! the Right lion. Gentleman said, be i 46/ 0 , be understood that -he s hould have t' P l° 6 , addition to the unfunded debt, with retF . , t Exchequer Bills, in order to meet the ~tel i ;i !settees of the country. 11e hoped, ina:ij Session of Parliament, that they sholtk:rA to bring these securities to a issue. It was certainly a remarkable betil:to the metropolis there wa s a superabuodaneeo pita' ; and if qny depression were fell iat b ! try,-it would Ge redeemed by the natural fire. of events. ,Front the flourishing state 01 . 1 „d ney.market in the metropolis he ettallsoio Most' sanguine hope that all tlitlic ult lo country would be speedily removed! ! o st more fio4 Weneficial effects had bait already r%Perio amid lie could not be iuthiced to beile; e o „iti t t e h t ( l 'i d i ed i . n - ill T 'e t i m i e r r e e t‘vva.(4s6tlldri obbeviC:tioctimslerr::litiei3lll°° ()Cour Manufactures and Conon:lce. ~0,1111 Mr. GALC RAFT said, if the couotry ellr;) relief;i it was :entirely owing to a 110°11'0 hme taxes. This was the only advantege,;so yet experience.ci; but cconniny)tud re:T.r,tt had not been carried to that own wit'c l'c'r. ,),.1 Pie hod a right to detnand.;--(firtr, state .of the funds bad merely (l int P e : 1 6 1 :01 lend money at a lower r ate of 10 0 1 tycitild otherwise have rearmired. , „ ye toti.l Lord PALMBRSTO3 then moved far ie. v ou , Mr. II 11 . OG S D E in_ time Mutiny Bill, which was agreetiflthisi Bill was read a first tirpe, amid miles:di° again to-unarrOvr. , Bill for more effectually preveanng meetings. IP Si , ' tipjett! 01 Sir J. NawpoaT observed, his - ' be e,' EDNlTroyuSgiff;;lnifiiterAtepoirtot,!ili, sters bad stated, that this Bill WO 1 0 . I ow, 11 11' t t Gre.E4 Britain : he nosy Wishc d I Clh o l pitg 4l;° her . Ireland was to be expressly ettc-' its 0 • ? perat tons 1 n i The CHANCELLOR of the Excncoo it w a s 1•0i Confi'hed to Great lirition. A 0 0°1. Sir J. NEWPORT then suggesteu'icoiriii:; should be added to that effect' °' lt ,„ ' 010 thattitmeree on cou ld Fri Friday Let mg M et t i I I l i ot 00 0 be should think it necessor '''' o bicp,',o observations on the Orange Presumed to dictate to the couotrl/ ! should , not,be done within it. , 4, E atgi t a The CHANCELLOR of.. the 0 , c1 ,;;„ JP!' Ireland next.nobti ietctettriletd°illll c t i l_ lA: ` %- t ‘ t .t a . • l 1 year ,lire 14 o w; t e ll . ) 11 ~„, e ,; 0 0 ,, e flousc theft ' Thel6l3:l Was then ordered to be , NAVY ESTIMA'ri, 00 0, 1 " t at Me. Cao • ~:.tuft, on the part or A° iti rtl ce i.o .“1 , , who teas not then preseat, gi i toL o il on next, the Navy.l;stiaol`yotioto' — d ...Ei. fie submitted 1°W!)1 ° , 1 -seJ• t il i g 5 TO THE EDITOR. OF Tii nllll ---......10."----- c o rrel ° ic t Si R,—Perhaps sonic of Y IP "' if 'C O Y' can inform me; an d the Public, ciotorii have been led to surmise be real 9 Vai o „ fi ,, ( °4ll e a r in ei Y l'i.: iliac s - b I t t h e e '. t, Minis( has e r r e:o f ti tl " e' " ' k il t i l :e il ; i p ,, 1 should like throning Creed, niia joined noe ' o ll'W', minations or D.sieaters. if it l' e b itlid P ,Of quest pvrot!ssion to joist the !Ic' c ' ' t to l 1 1 0 tilt . ° dir li may deterinme to preseot an ' l it . 0 09 l e gent, instead of batwing hi„ se . 0 to 0 11 , t . o f those from whom be (lisioli ? orOO4P does f 4 1 ;0 0 ot l itl . orh to. be itifornted tvi'Y cbeatVe from time 'Chord) of Bo desty is ' himself with the Clergy; into " .11 ,`" 0 i m ar ii d,",i'r,; ton-house he had the decea c Y `, l t ime P l i jididl his doing, or was it by a n ti ' it cse 4e i rel If by consent f,f them, 1 I "",'‘..'i' io relt ~:4 0 0 iii ' find, that' opposition to the ' ~e A nti', 0 11`,t' enough to bring men into fAr l / 4 11 7 0 0 1 1i: o c tut combinat ions, and I ,siA ' . n od t liel liP V shallCt i i i il e ti o ti bn n jo - e l c i tb i t . co ii fs ti ta i v e t tpliarcrikel.itoi tCoattil ri a ( c l l .e s v " ..enif C o l: t e l v 1 „ ° 50 : : 'ed as brethren by the Dissenters; ►, _4o' - lo p eril' o f 4 Bay with more web vt' c ~latc Fl l In consequence of the late a l or! o f 1 44 the title, on Sunday sligh t ' T it fore e t s a mil g "; than its sonaping PPP,ipil the galliot Eliza, which Was i : , by6L'ioa 7- side Point, upon her beam et ) , ; . 'bat I.o' l one of her masts, site ril',llte,,fholaai to add; one Of her cr ew t Grange,) lost his life. a~~~. ~t're t 9 d9 Test erday,. — Waitt r Cows-, E(q. of a is,oo. juste l'estr , loy, in Park-street, Westill Smile, Esq. M. P. of a.son. in rt -----------'---6'. .ri , ' ) ' r , Al Alt 1 11 .,t - ' of- 'l,ol' 0 Yesterday, Charlo; Summers, r:s'ucitoot (10), Maria, eldest 'dattithter uf Georh e j e i i/. 4 garde!). .more .. ~ ,,p, On the sth ul tat ''rieste, Georg' 'Ei t y, t‘' ll e V , of ggens, Moore, and Co. of thAisioolo P elsolson; daughter to the late Jude United States. " /1 itTI A4 I ,- pIFI).. t , n O , - .00 , ' 0 (0) t ul t 1 .sNaluutntildir,aidyanyty3ll.lJohsttln, ilowt.ruailial:a:roaiti 41,4';;:veigtotit1,1300.trii,:i...„ .1,11;1,1d:1i buihter, at Grove-street, PePt'ur, pvo.. se. r ot, , 46, formerly 'Captain in tbe 5 " w it i d 01 ' ) I 0 •PatlYo 4.iliti lately a Candid,tte for a oi ib e _ .!) ,1, At Little Punkah], Peithihire Q i Ai Boni , ' . t c omit to hiS (iiAC4 thg W vaneed age of .10e. ;IP Li )ti •* lj°N: Printed ly sc, 'dr "uildine-s: and published by W • f t * i$ striog t, at the A uf ,:.orricir }, PO' S 4 10, n", 01114:ri, Letttri,lo. f.13,,5t