The Sun. — London, England, 1857-12-04 00:00:00

India now? But the troops were sent five weeks too late, and were sent in old ships which had been trading to India ioyears ago. N o ass i s t ance was given those ships i n pass the line, which might have been done by detaching steamers to tow them through the calms. But what Was the difference of four or five weeks? It was a differ ence of four or five weeks in the fall or the safety of Luck- Ile said troops were not sent as they should have been, and prober care was not taken in sending them; and if Lueknow fell, for the loss of honour to this country, and ti for aentll the h orrors t h at wou ld a tt en d t h a t ' a ll , t h e Govern were responsible. (Hear.) The D u k e of ARGYLL said he believed the noble earl had 'Token under some undue excitement, and had over rated the apprehensions which he himself attached at the time to the events which took price before the mutiny at Meerut, during the months of January, February, and larch, conc l uded as they were b y the d i s b an d men t an d a ismissal o f t wo nat i ve reg i ments i n t h e presence o f a large force of other native regiments, by Lord Canning. He (the noble duke) did not wish to conceal the fact that those °vents prior to the mutiny at Meerut did not raise in the minds of the Government of India or of the Government at ne, feelings w hi c h if they could have been viewed by the ht of subsequent events, they would uudoubtedly have Prod uced. The first occasion on which the noble earl di rected the attention of the house to the events passing in e in dia—and he (the Duke of Argyll) meant those prelimi *rY events to which he had just referred—was on May 19. ' t ne• ir lordships all knew the deep interest which his noble friend took in the affairs of India, and the facility with which he entered into questions relatin g to that empire. Jet the time mentioned, he simply asked a question es to what were the steps which Government proposed to take, • ', ea( ' he made no comments whatever as t as, o the force in India. •Lhe answe r given by Government hatw they felt no alarm for the safety of that empire, but at the same time they proposed to send out additional troops—to the extent of four regiments. Ho was now quite astonished to hear that a Pledge was given to send them out instanter. ih• Earl of ELL ENBOROUGH and the Earl of DERBY 'Five weeks were mentioned. The Duke of ARGYLL said be found by a note made that Lord Panmure remarked that if the troops left England earlier than the second week in June, they would arrive in India in an unhealthy season, and the events which had Occurred there did not create the idea that they were re equired inst an tl y. Th e t e l egrap hi c accoun t s arr i ve d on the 9th June, and they stated simply that a mutinous spirit 1 ° 4 , 8 apparent, especially in the ed Regiment of Cavalry at "'dd. He would now mention that the Government had no desire to throw upon the Court of Directors any part of the responsibility which justly lay upon them—(hear)-- t ilt the attack made upon the Court of Directors had had this beneficial effect, it produced as coming from them a tom e and accur a t e s t a t e ment as to the reinforcements of the ;my sent to India. There could be no doubt that rein • rce ments were sent out in the ordinary class of ships taken up before the accounts arrived—that was to say, "oh ships as were used for that purpese when reinforce. me ats were made to the army in India. That fact he would• admit on the part of the Government and the Court of Directors ; but he believed it would be found that im mediately disastrous news arrived of the mutiny at Meerut and the capture of Delhi, the Court of Directors gave im mediate orders for a tender of a large class of vessels and ac7ew steamers. Those tenders were published after the first meeting of the court after the news reached this coon trY• But this was a subject into which they ought not to have been called to enter to-night. He firmly believed it Would be found that no undue delay took place after the ews arrived. He was surprised to hear the noble earl no w blame the Government for not using screw steamers. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said his remarks were, thatthey might have used steamers in passing the line, and la assisting the sailing shipsthreugh the calms. The Duke of ARGYLL said it should be remembered that the steamers had to coal at certain points, and suffi- Ceitt coal was not ready. He should be very much sur prised if some of the sailing vessels taken up under some of the recent traders, and which sailed in company with the ata amers, bad n o t m a de a s good a passage as the screw ai atners, and ho tho u ght this fact would be borne out by reference to the accounts brought by the last mail. f The E ar l o f H ARD WICKE sa id th e i r l or d s hi ps on th a t aide o the house simply stated to the Government on cer tain occasions facts which they did not appreciate as to the commencement of the perils through which India had gone, ",atid th e emergency of the case upon which they ought ear lier tohave decided. His noble friend had referred to the ',steamers employed on the coast of Africa being employed an to wing the saltine vessels across the line, but the Govern rut did no t think it would have been of any advantage. e thought the advantages which occurred had not been used by the Government. He used to bo struck by the ? banner in which the navy was dealt with by the Govern. nient in times o f emergenc y. I n cases o f thi s sor t— as t o r e r apid transit of troops—the navy might have been f o ught into pl ay w ith grea t e ff ec t . T o men ti on a case, t h o ught 94th Regiment had remained at Plymouth since the end , of Oct o b er, l ong a ft er th at reg i ment was or d ere d to t India. The G overnmen t t oo k up a D u t c h s hi p , w hi c h pu t s eas and soon put back again, and the contract which was entered into was never performed. Now, at the time t t , which thi s D u t c h s hip was enga ged th e re was lying at • Th ,LYtnouth the St. Jean d'Acre, quite ready to go to sea. se `'s was ast on i s h e d that the resources which the Govern suent had in their own hands were not used for the service of the country. (Hear.) He (the Earl of Hardwicke) ea rly in the summer suggested the use of the overland 4 °ttrney to India, but he was immediately met with objec ,wane. It had, however, since been found out that it was practicable to transport troops through France and Egypt ; but if it had been done in June, the Govern ment would have had 5,000 men in India at the end of -u gust. He should advise the Government to use steamers I n futur e , as sailing vessels had no chance with them. Of ' l 3 vessels and steamers which had lately left England for India, it had been found that the average time taken by 82 former to Calcutta was 103 days, and that of the latter "`days 15 hours. nl T he Duke of ARGYLL--When was the comparison ade ? t e The Earl of HARDWICKE , a ft er g i v i ng th e names o f in ue vessels, said th a t wou ld b e apparen t. Th e ti me t a k en s; going to Mad ras was 101 d ays an d 93 d a y s respec elelr and to Point de Galls 85 days 12 hours, and 80 days hours di so that steamers beat the sailing vepreskehtin every instance. thete " 0 liake of ARGYLL wished to point out that, as to sailing vessels, the average given was from a list of ai aLls which included some of the slowest in the service. the Earl of H ARD WICKE—It a pp eare d, th en , th a t ''"e Government took up some of the worst ships they Sheetfind, an d a t a time, too, when they possessed the fleet governmentin the world. The noble duke admitted that the took up ships that were very bad, and for this ere could be no excuse. It was high time that the navy should be made more generally useful than it had been, for hitherto it had been considered too much as adapted selely clef machine of war, whereas it might often he rendered eful in the furtherance of peaceful designs. The country Was compelled to keep up the navy in some force, and at c onsiderable expense, and was entitled to the utmost ser 'ice that could be given in return. (Hear, hear.) Earl GREY said he had no peculiar admiration for the kct of 1844, but he thought it too much of a half-measure; the principle upon which it was founded was a sound one, though not efficiently carried out ; but, whether the act Was wise or unwise, they had the fact of its having twice Proved a failure in the space of 10 years, and the Govern blent had been compelled to take upon themselves to super sede its provisions. After that, he thought the Act of 1844 cjtuld not remain with advantage upon the statute book. lie could understand the Government bringing in a bill of rdemnity if they were prepared to follow it up by alter g the act ; but to propose a bill of indemnity a second bore within so short a period as 10 years, without follow aag it up with a proposal to amend the act, was to take fcourse which seemed perversely erroneous. Some ersena seemed to believe that the necessity for departing the act in 1847 arose from the mismanagement of the ek It might at that time be reasonable that it should ev e anothe r t r i a l . It must b e o b v i ous, h owever, t h at w h en two Governments have been compelled to resort to such a I , 4 easure as that under consideration, the moral power of 6 a u ka n t i e e c t_ was_ at an end.. .(Hear.) The mei-can - silo class p te `" no longer believe in it, and in future whenever a allure arose the Government would be expected to inter rtel; an d henceforth the necessity would be increased. But e act was not to be maintained, then he would say let ; 10 mann er i n which and the conditions upon which, it was i i ZdeParted f rom b e l a id d ow n by Parliam e nt. (H ear .) If the present arrangement amounted to a distinct .. If the measure of value was to be tampered with by a :I,scretionary act on the part of any one, let it be known by , v ttOin that authority was to be executed. At present the filsonsibility was divided between the Bank and the Go 13rnraent. That was an arrangement which he thought e tt 'gdat not t o continue, and an ent i re a l terat i on oug h t to b e ta a e ',, e *, Ilia complaint was that the act placed us in a posi- Whichet all others m os t likely to bring us into a state in a d eparture from the standard might be necessary; he not fear that such a departure would be made of malice kl r i e ll e4B e, as it were, buttho duration of the existing system u .gat be endangered from a state of things no longer main kelinle, and for which Government and Parliament would ren u° Prepared. He wished to see the system of the cur th Cy reformed on a sound principle. In his opinion it was BB e e , n11 ,t.7 of the state to afford money for the use of the State. erg kept the right of coining in his own hand ; but gold t.1. e l silver were less likely to be abused than paper money. with respect to the issue of paper money, if persons were al lowed to i ssue thi s ki n d o f currency a t th e i r discre tion, • Toro e . they knew from exerience what the result would proper policy ho thought was that the issue of 110 3 r should be distinctly taken up by the State, o end that Paper money being so issued should be thrown pen to free and unreatrieted competition that would give us considerable relief at the present time, and he was sorry. t o h ear that nothing of the kind was to be done. Whether this or any other course were taken, he re v.eated th at the moral power of the Act of 1844 was gone. He did not think legislation would be proceeded with till after the Parliamentaryinquiry. That this question should again go before a Parliamentary committee was a worse course than at once dealing directly with the question. He thought inquiry would be attended with great advantage Upon another subject—he meant the causes of the present commercial distress, because it appeared to him a great fallacy to attribute the late disasters to our circulating Medium. He was convinced that a system of commerce had gradually got established iu this country, as well as iu other countries, which acted with great evil, and he was desirous of doing something to check it. He therefore desired an inquiry into the system of currency, and par ticularly into the events which had produced the present crisis. He came from a part of the country, which, unfor tunately, would suffer deeply ; and he thought they, as Well as the commercial world, had a right to have these things inquire P d into. He thought that a committee of their Vrdshi would carry on an inquiry even more efficiently ; h , an a committee of the other house. In the first p lace, *", a committee of that house they would ha ve the invalu able assistance of his noble friend near him (Lord Over- St °lie ) ; they would also have the assistance of several of their lordships, whose services would be of the utmost value; but, above all, a committee of that house would not b e f ettered and frightened by t h ose i n fl uen ces which °Perated on the members of the other house ; and hence, he beli eved they would be likely to probe the ma tt er more d eeply than it would be probed elsewhere. Lord OVERSTONE agreed with his noble friend in t • hinking that the Bank Act deserved the most careful con aiderati°ll. He also agreed with his noble friend in the Principle that everything connected with the issue of money should be effectually and distinctly separated from every thing connected with the dealing in money. The act of 1844 stopped short of declaring that the money of the count?y should belong to and be regulated by th e St a t e ; out in practice, under that act, the management of the money of the country in its issue was entirely separated from the business of banking and the dealing in money. Prejudices in the public mind and errors in minds of great intelligence were not yet eradicated, and no debate ever took Pla• c e in which th ose errors did no t a pp ear . H e was at one tim e . unwilling to sanction a more complete separation be tween the creation of money and the dealing in money•be cause of the inconvenience which might arise from the transference to the Government of the management ; but the little he had seen convinced him that it would be better to carry the principle out to its fullest extent, and he was therefore for separating in account and in appeal. anca as was actually separated in practice the creation Ifrom the dealing in money. He did not agree that it was f the prerogative of the Crown to create the money of the country. He believed it rested on sounder principles—the principles upon which the Act of 1844 was built. The two principles upon which that Act was founded wore, first, that gold was the money of England ; and, secondly, that the quantity of gold which the country should have for its money should not be under the control of any Govern ment, nor of any body, nor of any private individual, but should be subject to the free competitive action of the whole community. Any man might bring any quantity of gold into the country for the purpose of having it made into money, and any man m i g ht t a k e ou t o f th country any quantity cf money so made. Thus free trade was esta blished in money, and they relied for a proper supply of money upon the same principle as that on which they relied for a proper supply of provisions. (Elear.) If the provisions of the people fell short and prices rose enor mously, what would be thought cf a Government who sai3, " You have been suffering great inconvenience from a shortness of provisions and paying higher prices than usual, and seeing your difficuties, and being convinced we ought not to allow those difficulties to proceed too far, we have undertaken to store provisions ourselves, and to supply all and every one to as great an extent as they choose, upon the condition of their paying the present price ?" That was precisely what had been done by the issuing this letter. Circumstances arose in which persons wont to the Government and said, "This principle of free trade in money will not apply. You (the Government) mu , t give an artificial supply at the present price." The Irish famine was an analogous ease. When that great emer gency came the Government did interfere in that anoma lous and unlawful manner; but many had grave doubts whether their interference was beneficial, and whether it would be repeated a secrnd time. They ought in the matter of the currency to carry out general principles ;!and bow could Government interference, he asked, be recon ciled with those general principles? It was quite impos sible not to acknowledge that the suspension of the Act on two occasions was a subject of grave consideration. He understood the noble earl opposite (Earl Derby) to say that he did not complain of the Act of 1844 as having anything to do with the creation of difficulties, but that in periods of famine and pressure it was not sufficient to meet those difficulties. The Earl of DERBY—That then it aggravated the diffi culties. Lord OVERSTONE—But it should be remembered that the power of issuing the letter was derived from the Act of 1844, and that the Government would not, without that Act, have had such a power, and also without that Act the public would not have permitted the Bank of England to raise its interest to anything like 10 per cent. If the inte rest had not been raised to 10 per cent. the exchanges would not have been corrected, the store of bullion would have diminished, and the Government could not have issued the letter. It was impossible to deny that the suspension of the Act twice repeated did create serious difficulty, and he thought the Government were entitled to say that the committee which was in existence ought to direct its at tention to the question whether, while keeping the provi sions of the Act of 1844, which were essential to maintain ing the solidity of the monetary system and placing the exchanges under proper control, they could not add, with out relaxing those principles unsafely, au elastic power ap plicable to peculiar and exceptionable circumstances. It was a very grave inquiry, and should only be entered on with the greatest calmness and judgment, unaffected by the passions of debate. If they meant to treat this ques tion in a really wise and statesmanlike manner they would not apply their attention to concocting palliatives, but seek a remedy by tracing these evils to their source. Ho would advise them to learn wisdom from the history of the present disturbance. It commenced in the United States, and no man doubted that that the monetary crisis there had been fomented by a vicious system with regard to banking, currency, and trading. (Hear, hear.) The condition of thin gs in the United States was closely analogous to the condition of things in England previous to the passing of the Act of 1814. The object of Sir Robert Peel was to extricate this country from a system analogous in all its principles to the sys tem of the United States, which twice in twenty years had produced the universal suspension of specie pay ments. Therefore, whatever they did they should do nothing which tended to place the monetary system of England on the same condition as the monetary system of the United States. ( Hear, hear.) The next point was this —what was the circumstance which weakened the power of the monetary system under the Act of 1844 to meet this pressure ? It was the abstraction of 3,000,000 sovereigns to meet the panic in Scotland and Ireland, with regard to the issues of local notes. Supposing this country when menaced by foreign invasion on its southern shores was re quired to detach a large force to meet an insurrection in Scotland or Ireland, would not its power of defence be weakened ? That was precisely the case of the late dis turbance in the money system. At the critical moment, when all its stores were required to maintain it against foreign pressure, there came a demand for 3,000,000/. for no really useful purpose, but solely in consequence of these local issues of notes in Scotland and Ireland. The panic in the United States arose, extended to this country, and where did the malaria first strike us ? At our ports--at Liverpool and Glasgow, where joint-stock banks soon proved the unsoundness of their position. The cause of the difficulties was to be found there, and unless some remedy could be devised for it any attempt to deal with our mone tary laws would be utterly deceptive. There had grown up in this country and had been rapidly developed within the last 10 or 15 years a false system of credit and of hold ing deposits at call carrying interest, a system which had grown to an enormous extent, and which was still grow ing, and if that evil was not corrected it would certainly overturn our monetary system altogether. That was not an isolated opinion of his own, for there was scarcely a man of enlarged views and experience in the city of Lon don who did not entertain the same views. It was indis pensable that the attention of Parliament should be directed to that subject. Let them look at the difficulty in which the country was placed, notwithstanding the relief sup posed to bo afforded by an exceptionable dealing with the Act of Parliament. He did not moan to say that the Govern ment ought not to have taken the step which they had, but he did say that if the Act had been maintained only 24hours longer the whole of the vicious system to which he had re ferred would have been got rid of by the crumbling to atoms of the institutions which fostered it. (Hear.) Irre trievable ruin would have followed, and the commercial atmosphere would have been cleared. But to prevent that it was deemed necessary to] interfere, and to suspend the operation of the Bank Act. By so doing they had antici pated the natural action and legitimate remedy for this unwholesome system, and therefore had rendered it in cumbent upon Parliament to find some other remedy for the future. What that remedy should be he could not tell, and he greatly feared that whatever it might be it would only have the effect of creating a new disorder, and his serious apprehension was that the very next monetary dis turbance would inevitably lead to a suspension of our specie issue altogether. In 1847 the mere permission to issue ad ditional notes was sufficient without that permission being made use of. The present was a crisis of greater magni tude; the evils were also greater, and the Bank had not only been compelled to avail itself of the permission accorded to it by the Government, but had actually exceeded its legitimate issue by some 6,003,000/. or 7,000,0001. ("No.") He knew exactly what he said, and he maintained its ac curacy. The Bank had issued 2,000 0001. beyond the fixed amount without leaving any supply in the Bank till. Now, the Bank of England was in that peculiar condition that it ought to have a large banking reserve, because it had a large amount of balances of an ephemeral and uncertain character. To place the Bank of England in a proper bank ing position in reference to the deposits it held would re quire an amount which justified him in saying that it had exceeded its proper limits of issue by 6,000,0001. or 7,000,0001. The next occasion of pressure upon the Bank would probably occur before the exchanges were rectified, and then the crisis would be greater than that which we had shrunk from meeting upon the present occasion. There were serious and formidable difficulties hanging over this country, and in warning the house of them he desired to call their earnest attention to them. It was a subject of vast and national importance, and should be considered in a candid spirit without regard to prejudices of any kind, but with a determination to contribute to the adoption of a plan which would best maintain the character and inte rests of the country. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of EGLINTON could not perceive in what degree a relaxing power, such as had just been exeacised by the Government, could be said to be incompatiole with the Bank Charter Act. The late Sir Robert Peel, in sketching out his plan for that act, expressly stated that he thought there should be a relaxing power vested in the Government, and surely nothing could be easier than to create such a power. He (Lord Egliuton) was not one of those who favoured free trade in banking and currency, but he certainly conceived that the system propounded by the noble lord who had just spoken was the most opposed to free trade that could be devised. He con sidered the Bank Charter Act of 1844 in one respect as a beneficial measure, inasmuch as it tended to place a re striction upon the business of banking ; but the amount of circulation limited by that act was not sufficient for the wants of the population at the present time. (Hear.) He thought also it would be a wise measure to assimilate the English system to that of Scotland by enabling the Bank to issue 11. notes. (A. laugh.) The noble lord had referred to the drain upon the Bank of England by the Scotch banks; bat there was no ground of Complaint upon that score. A senseless run for gold took place in Scotland ; the banks there did not ask the Bankof England to assist them, but they sold out stock which they held, and then went to the Bank of England and asked for that gold which was their own. The noble lord had spoken of the effects which would have arisen from a mainteuanceof the Bank Charter Act in the crumbling to pieces of all unsound institutions, but he (Lord Eglinton) believed that had not that relaxa tion taken !place when it did, all the commercial establish ments of the country must have given way. He thought, however, that the Bank Act was an unsatisfactory condi tion. Parliament was called on to vote an indemnity for relaxing that act, but they were not told for what time the relaxation iasrt s uoagreeb jeet, unfortunately endure. proposition H e fo h li a t a d dr invited the house last y th e e w a t bh out u t to o existing enter evils not commissionadopt hi s u mo tion,on and he b e li eved that had that inquiry taken placeth n upon a wouldprnootrtaeted i have aurigsueinry., Theybut n o w one er e could tell what events might occur before t . e advent of the next sessi on o f Parliament. Be thought a repeal of the Bank Charter Act would be hoped change for the worse, b u t h e that it wou l d be modified in a manner that would render it more conformable to the wants and interests of the whole nation. Lord MONTEAGLE thought that if his noble friend who had spoken last but one, vin opinion respecti ng th e late act a ofg propounded hi s own nevertheless prep are d t o give an u Government was the proposed Bill of I n d emnity the position approval to placed himself wes certainly most co x si t t r i a o o n r p which he His noble friend admitted that every suspension olnafthrye. Bank Charter Act had not only weakened the act itself, but had weakened it in a manner most damaging to the best inter ests of the country. The nobl e l or d d i d not leave e country without a remedy, but the application of that remedy must have crumbled and crushed our present sys tem to atoms, and would have stopped the Bank of Eng land, and ho ruin and destruction of many of the best conducted and most respectable establishments in the country would have followed. The Bank Act was de fended on the principle of being the perfection of free trade iu money, but it was in fact a complete restriction on all freedom. He objected to that act on , the ground that it applied one invariable rule to totally opposite and ca , hear.) This he stat e d on (II- r distinct circumstances. the authority of Mr. Huekisson , a man second to none in experience and wisdom. To establish a rule which would act were act with the same stringency when the exchanges against us as when they were favourable was to run the risk of seeing the Bank drained of its last penny. It was ho activity of it, not the amount of circulation only, but t which was to be taken into consideration. The present system o , mi:flitted the error of dealing with the circulation as if the same amount of money issued from the Bank would alw iys have the same power. It was just as if in a calculation in a matter of physics all idea of the moving power was omitted and the weight only considered. It was undeniable that on the only two occasions that the act 11.1 been br ,ught into operation it had deceived the expec tations of its framers. Parliament, he thought, would scarcely be prepared to leave in the power of the Govern ment of the day to set aside at its own will and pleasure the law upon which all the tights of property depended. conchtsion, the noble lord expressed a hope that future opportunities would arise for the ample discussion of the subj ict, and asked for a copy of the correspondence which had taken place with relation to it between the Chancellor of the Exchenner and the Bank of England. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY said that he had already laid it upon the table. Lard CAMPBELL, referring to the paragraph in the Speech respecting the introduction of a measure for sim plifying and amending the laws of real property, said that he wAs very anxious to see a bill which proposed to render the transfer of land as easy as the transfer of the Three per Cents. He had some curiosity to know how such a great wonder was to be attained, and he hoped that the bill would shortly be laid on the table. Tile LORD CHANCELLOR said that the Speech did not promise to introduce a measure which would render the transfer of land as easy as the transfer of the Three per Cents. All that the Speech said was, that measures would be proposed for simplifying and amending the laws relating to real property. Those measures were in course of prepa- ration, but he could not undertake to say that they would be laid on the table before the ordinary time. In answer to the Earl of DERBY, E.,rl GRANVILLE said that the Indemnity Bill would be introduced into the other house to-morrow (this day), when, if there were no opposition, it would he read a first time, and the other stages would bo taken as rapidly as possible The Address was then agreed to, and the house ad journed at 11 o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YEsTBRDAY.) The house resumed at a quarter to 4 o'clock. NEW MEMBERS. The lion. Mr. Byng (for Midellesex), and Mr. W. J. Fux ('or Oldham), took the oaths and their seats, having been elected during the recess, SESSIONAL ORDERS. The usual sessional orders were read and agreed to. NEW WRITS. - - - On the motion of Mr. HATTER, a now writ was or dered for the borough of Harwich in the room of Major Warburton, deceased ; for Paisley, in the room of Mr. A. Hastie, deceased : for the eastern division of the county of Kent, in the room of Sir E. C. Daring, who has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. On the motion of Mr. KNIGHTLY, a new writ was ordered for Northamptonshire, in the room of Mr. O'Brien Stafford, deceased. Oa the tni,tionof Mr. T:BARING, a new writ was ordered for Thetford, in the room of the Hon. Francis Baring, who has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. OUTLAWRY BILLS. On the motion of Mr. WILSON, this bill was read a first time. BANK INDEMNITY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice that he should to-morrow move that the house resolve itself into a committee of the whole house, with a view of introducing a bill for indemnifying the directors of the Bank of England, and also he should move after• wards for the reappointment of the bank committee of last session. LIMITED LIABILITY. Mr. HEADLAM gave notice that on Tuesday next he should move a resolutiop, that the principle of un limited liability enforced on joint-stock banks by the present laws confers a species of credit dangerous in its character, prejudicial in its management, and otherwise injurious to the interests of the public. (Hear.) rnE SUN LONDON, FRIDAY EVBIBIING DECEAIBEIL 4, 1.857. army to fight our battles, and they were large contribu tors to the revenue. He then referred to the commercial panic that had recently been felt iu this ciuntry, and thanked the hrn•se for tl.e attention with which it bad beard him, the hon. member resumed his seat amidst cheers. The Address having been read by the SPEAKER, Mr. DISRAELI said—The surprise which has been fell by the bon. member who has just addressed us at this au. tumnal meeting of Parliament could not have been limited to the country, or even to the independent, members of this house. I think it must in some degree have taken her Majesty's Ministers themselves by surprise ; for it appears that, upon the 4th Nov., a council was held, in which they recommended that her Majesty should prorogue Parliament to the 18th Dec., yet, but eight days afterwards, viz., on the 12th of the same month, they find themselves under the necessity of recommending a violation of a most im portant statute. The hon. gentleman who has just ad dressed us, and who, I am sure, need not have apologised for his speech— (hear, hear)—whieb, with the utmost frankness and considerable knowledge, treated of a subject most interesting to the house, and to those whom he repre sents peculiarly interesting—the hon. gentleman, in his reply to the hon. mover—(laughter)—informed us that on the 4th Oct. the difficulty commenced, and that in the middle of that month there was danger, while on the 6th Nov. her Majesty's Ministers recommended a proro gation of Parliament to the 18th December, and then not for the despatch of business. Under these circum stances her Majesty's Government now find it absolutely necessary to rescind their resolution, and not only rescind their resolution, but to seek the advice of Parliament in the present emergency. What was the opinion of the Govern ment in November or October regarding the state or con dition of the commerce of the country? That would be a suject which would almost primarily, in the nature of things, occupy the consideration o f the Ministers of the greatest commercial country in the world. No doubt there were other subjects of the greatest importance which were soliciting the attention of the Government. Her Majesty's Ministers might have been maturing a Reform Bill, though they bad had so considerable a space for that effort that I should have thought by that time those efforts were eon siderably advanced; they might have been continuing those efforts which were unfortunately not sufficiently successful in adding to the forces of the gallant Wilson and of the intrepid Havelock. But, under any circumstances, I should have imagined they would have given their gravest consideration to the condition of the commerce of the coun try. There is one member of the Cabinet whose special duty it is to study all the circumstances that enter into our commercial condition, I mean the President of the Board of Trade, who is a member of the Cabinet. I apprehend he was present at the Cabinet meeting when the prerogative of the Parliament was decided upon. I take for granted that the President of the Board of Trade communicated to his colleagues to what conclusions he had arrived, no doubt after much painful investigation and deep thought. (Ironi cal cheers.) I take it for granted that upon that occasion that functionary told his colleagues that they might make themselves quite easy, so far as the commerce of the coun try was concerned—that they might feel assured of the tranquillity of the working classes—that no country had its commercialsyst mestablished.onsosound a basis— that there were no longer those old fashioned protective restrictions to impede the progress of the nation—(cheers)— that there was unrestricted competition —that our exports and our im ports were increasing—that our commercial principles were sound, and our mercantile system safe, and pro bably used that form of phrase which of late years has in some men's mouths become so customary, "that trade never was in so healthy a condition as at pre sent." (Hear, and a laugh.) Yet, sir, notwithstanding all this, a practical member has just told you that on the 4th of October there were serious difficulties in the commercial world, that positive danger had occurred about the middle of that month, and that when the Council which prorogued Parliament was sitting, occurrences were taking place which were about to shake to its very centre the whole of our commercial system. (Hear, hear.) And yet, sir, it would seem that Government must have come to a conclu sion the very reverse of this, judging from the course which they have pursued. Under what circumstances do we meet now ? Her Majesty's Government has thought pro per to authorise a departure from the existing law, a step in itself of the very gravest importance. Ido not want to enter into a discussion to-night as to whether it is expedi ent that this change should be permanent or temporary. I think I do not misinterpret the feelings of the house when I say that it is not desirable this night to enter into a currency debate. (Hear.) That would be a course highly inconvenient in dealing with a subject of so much import. ance, and which demands precise treatment and concen tration of attention. But are we about to be asked to grant a bill of indemnity to the Government for departing from the existing law ? Now, I know it is the habit of this house, when a bill of indemnity is asked for, to treat it in a very light manner. Generally speaking, such a measure is not to be asked for unless it is supposed to be a matter of course, and therefore it is treated lightly. Under some circumstances it is cordially, liberally, and even generously accorded ; bat under no circumstances ought it to be ac corded lightly. The house should, under no circumstances, assent to a bill of indemnity, especially like the one ad. verted to in . the Speech from the Throne, without well weighing the circumstances under which the infraction of the law had taken place. It is now about 10 years since there was a state of affairs like the present—not, indeed, identical, for there was then a technical difficulty which must be familiar to all who hear me. I ask any hon. member if he have a clear idea of the circumstances under which the Government then acted, and in con sequence of which they recommended the suspension of an important act—in consequence of which they came to Parliament, not absolutely to obtain a bill of in demnity, but for a sanction of the advice which the Government had given to the Bank. At that time the country was told that an immense calamity would have occurred had not the Bank of England applied, and not unsuccessfully, for the interference of the Government ; but it turned out, according to the evidence given before the committee of last session upon this very subject, ten years after the event had taken place--evidence given by men of great ability, by men who held the office of Gover nor of the Bank—that, in 1847, the Bank of England, not withstanding all that had been said, made no appeal at all to her Majesty's Ministers ; that they never had asked for any interference ; that they had protested against any in terference; that they did not require protection ; that the Bank was, in 1817, prepared not only to maintain the con vertibility of the bank notes which they had issued, but also to protect the dep o sits which had been entru sted to them. Now , what evidenc e up to this mom ent has the ponce? eceived that the same circumstances have not taken place (Hear-) ho far as the language of the Speech from the Throne is concerned, I am inclined to believe that the Bank had not applied for assistance to the Government. Her Majesty says—" The failure of certain joint-stock banks, and of some mercantile firms, produced such an extent of distrust as led um to authorise my Ministers to recommend to the directors of the Bank of England the adoption of a . course of proceeding which appeared neces sary for allaying the prevalent alarm. As that course has involved a departure from the existing law, a bill for in demnifying those who advised and those who adopted it will be submitted for your cousideration." I think, there it is pretty evident that it is the Government who has again rec ommended the Bank t o suspen d th e l a w; and fore therefore, when Government comes forward to ask the house for a bill of indemnity, I think I am only recom mending a prudent and a proper course—that we should have a frank and full declaration from the Government of the circumstances which induced them to pursue this policy and the reasons which in their minds rendered that policy necessary. (Hear.) The house is no doubt familiar with the whole scheme embodied in the Bank Act of 1844, and upon this occasion I need not dwell upon it. The house is awar e that although many men of great eminence support, as I do, and, as I trust, the house always will support, the con vertibility of bank notes—(near) —yet that there are still many men of the highest authority—not inferior to any of those statesmen or distinguished literary economists who obtained such celebrity for their connection with the Act of 1811 by their evidence before the committee —who dis pute the very principle upon which that act is founded, and to the fallacy of that principle attribute the occur rence, or rather the grievousness, of those events which have been referred to. For myself, I offer no opinon upon this subject, because I do not wish to draw the house into a currency debate. But it is, in my opinion, not only the duty of the Government, but even of any man, or set of men, who aspire to any leading in this house, to have on those points of controversy a distinct and definite judg ment. I learn with great regret that the right hon. gen tleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has given notice for to-morrow for a committee of the house to introduce a bill of indemnity, and for a committee to inquire into the Bank Charter Act of 1844. It appears to me, sir, that we are now doing exactly what was done in 1817. In that year the country was panic-str uc k, and we were half ruined. Parliament was called together —a committee was appointed —and, 10 years after, Parliament is again called together under similar circumstances—l deeply regret it—to indem nify the Government for the same sort of proceeding and to reappoint a Bank Charter Committee ; and I suppose in 1861, after the occurrence of the same mischances and the same miseries, we shall have the same conduct, the same fruitless and bootless proceeding. Look at what has been done. Before the Bank Act of 1844 was passed, you had a committee upon the issue of bank notes—it was ostensibly appointed to inform Parliament on the subject, and it led to the adoption of that act. The most eminent men were exa mined before that committee. Three y e a r s had not elapsed before that act was virtually suspended. What collected then from Aeo all mmittee wasagain app o i n t ed—ev id ence was classes—from all quarters—from the re presentatives of all schools, and the professors of all the doctrines upon the subject. We now come to 1857 and we have again a committee appointed —a third committee. Well, subsequeutly the crash comes, and we are now again asked to reappoint a committee to inquire into the most important subject which can possibly affect the interests of this country—we are called together suddenly to inquire into the violation o f an Act of Parliament ; but; a great programme of public policy is placed in our hands, This programme, sir , contains no me an su bj ec ts. There have been Royal speeches which it has been my fate to criticise, which were but pompous enumerations of very petty even ts couched in mystical phraseology ; but here are great topics, one of them bein g no less than the form of government for the greatest of all our dependencies. We are to consider how we are to construct the principles of this house, and upon what principles the trade of this country is to be re-established, and an act of indemnity is one of the most important of those principles. You may regain an empire which you have lost, but that the currency should be established upon sound principles is an axiom the a pplication of which exercises the most and a laugh.) Well, then, I say general influence over tee state of Society in this country. (Hear, hear.) It touches all classes; and many, op (H on ea w r hich Ministers ought to make up who are totally insensible to imperial grandeur or political rights, have a very near interest in the decision which we may i c h om is e is to a upon sub jec i t t. their minds. Aro they going to stand upon the Bank Cb arter Act of 1841, or are they not ? (Hear.) Now, this is really the question which the country wishes them to answer. If they are going to stand upon the Batik Charter Act of 1844, I should myself fur one hesitate before I agree to that bill of indemnity, because they were not justified in departing from the letter of that act. If, on the other hand, they are not going to stand upon the Bank Charter Act of 1814—if they have a policy, and come forward and toll u s the y ha ve a policy, and that they intend to propose amend ments i n that act, then I say we :twist not be scrupulous or litigous about bills of indem nAtY; we must grant them without reserve, And await resloootfally, but with the greatest interest, what their dic.i.sion may be, But it appears to me that we should first' lay claim to the confidence and respect of the country ; and if, indeed, the noble lord wants to lay a good ground for an extensive measure of Parliamentary reform, I think he swill lay LO better ground than when the country, which has suffered so much, understands that we, who have been called are the representatives o f the people, PROBATE DIITY. Mr. W. WILLIAMS gave notice that he should, on an early day, move a resolution relative to the payment of Probate Duty by property and corporate bodies at present exempt. ARMY WARRANT OF 1854. General PEEL gave notice that he should to-morrow put a question to the Under-Secretary for War relative to the Army Warrant of 1854, and to ask what steps he had taken to remedy the injustice admitted to have been done by it. PATRIOTIC FUND. Lord A. CHURCHILL gave notice of a motion in relation to this Patriotic Fund. BRITISH ENGINEERS AT NAPLES. Mr. M. MILNES gave notice that to-morrow he should ask a question relative to the detention of British engineers by the Government of Naples. (Hear, hear.) LEAVE OF ABSENCE TO SIR J. GRAHAM. Mr. GLADSTONE gave notice that he should to morrow move for a month's leave of absence to Sir J. Graham, on account of severe domestic affliction. OATHS BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that on Thursday next he should move that the house go into committee of the whole house to consider the present oaths taken by members of the house, and also the disabilities affect ing the Jews. (Cheers.) ARMY AND NAVY ESTIMATES. Mr. W. WILLIAMS gave notice that on the house going into committee on the army and navy estimates, he shonld move that the said estimates be referred to a select committee. (Hear, hear.) THE ORDER OF THE MEDJIDIE. Colonel KNOX gave notice that to-morrow heshould put a question relative to the Turkfih Order of the Medjie not having been yet distributed. THE ADDRESS. TheSPEAKER having read her Majesty's most gracious Speech from the chair, Mr. WYKE[IAM MARTIN, in rising to move the Address, said that, although an old member of the house, yet he was so little in the habit of addressing the members, that he needed a greater measure of in dulgence on that occasion than those who addressed them for the first time. They had been told in the Speech from the Throne, in kindly terms, the reason for their being assembled at a somewhat unusual period of the year—viz , the distress of a most aggravated kind that had arisen amongst a large portion of the mercantile community, and which, had it not been for the course adopted by the Government would have spread to a wider extent. The house would therefore be called upon to pass an act of indemnity for that which the Bank of England had done on the responsibility of Government to check that distress that would otherwise have occurred, and at the same time they submitted their conduct to the judgment of the country. The house was called upon to assent to what had been done contrary to the Act of 1844 that was passed for the regulation of the currency, and assimilate the action of the joint currency of gold and paper. The policy of that act had been to give satisfaction to most of the eminent persons connected with the commercial community ; and though it had happened that twice in 1847, and now in 1357, its operation had had to he suspended, he believed it would be found to have acted beneficially for the country.. The hon. gentleman then alluded to the paragraph in the Speech from the throne, relative to the suffering amongst the labouring population, and then passed on to Indian affairs, and said he felt sure the house would not be slow to join their sympathy with the honourable member for the unfortunate sufferers in this lamentable outbreak ; nor need he point out to them the conduct of our troops in that part of the world to excite their admiration. The names of Generals Wilson, Have lock, and Outram—(loud cheers)—Lieutenants Wil loughby, Ho me , an d S a lk e ld, an d in humbler life Sergeants Carmichael and Smith, and Cor poral Smith, with the more recent informa tion relative to Lieutenant Oehorne—(loud cheers) — could not fail to strike the heart of every member of the community, and cause them to thrill with gratitude and admiration whenever they heard them named. (Loud cheers.) He traced the hand of Providence in much that had occurredinths.tceuntry, and he considered it WAS the duty of the Government to conduct themselves towards that country with energy and discretion, and he hoped that at no distant day India would be colonised. The hon. gentleman alluded to the state of Europe, and the ratification of the treaty of peace by Persia, and in passing on to the estimates for the year, said that he felt satisfied the house would not grudge what was necessary for maintaining the efficient state of the country. He congratulated the house and the country on the promised reform of Parliament. (Hear.) Notwithstanding the important measures that had en gaged the attention of the Government during the short recess that had just passed, he felt confident that when the measure was brought forward it would give satisfac tion to the people. It would be premature to enter on its probable details, and he thought it would be im prudent, and he for one would be content to wait the proper time for its introduction to the house. He next referred to the proposed law returnee, amongst these the greater facility of transferring lands, and the coneolida tien of the criminal code. The hon. gentleman con cluded by moving an humble address to the Crown. Mr. AK RO YD, in seconding the motion, said he did so feeling confident of the responsibility that attached to him. The Government proposed to bring for ward three important questions ; first, the Bank Act; second, with regard to India ; and thirdly, the Reform Bill. As a manufacturer he should address himself more particularly to the Bank Act, and the house would not be surprised to find he should take a different view of it to the mover of the Address. (Rear, hear.) Ho did not look at the question in its narrow view that many did relative to money dealers in the papers, though he had a strong feeling of interest for them. He considered the house would take a broader view of the question, as regarded their commercial interests, and the working classes of the manufacturing districts ; they, he was happy to say, were tolerably well off, and he hoped their prospe rity would continu e , and if it was necessary to I et list th e sympathy of the house in their behalf, he would remind them that they furnished men for thit together by our Sovereign, and say that we can do no thing but follow the same fruitless ceremony which was followed before those sad events occurred. (Hear, hear.) I make no doubt that hon. gentlemen have given some attention during the recess to the labours of the committee upon the banking community; I make no doubt there are many gentlemen whose studies were not limited to the labours of that committee, and that they also have studied the labours of the committees of 1817 and 1850, but also that they have studied the labours of the committees of the Lords upon the same subject. (Hear.) Now, I ask those who have taken the trouble to go through those papers which were printed by the com mittee of last year— although they contain a body of evi dence distinguished by a knowledge of the subject, and which display the commanding and sufficient in formation which they give them as a basis for legislation—l ask them if they have found a single new fact or principle? Net one ; and I defy any man to bring forward any more facts or principles than have been already laid before committees of both houses. You have had Lord Overstone before you, a man who, by his commanding intellect, is perfectly com petent to convey abstract ideas, and to 'give you, in mas terly language, the conclusions at which he has arrived with so much patient thought. But what the evidence of Lord Overstone was in 1857 it will be in 1858, if we have him be fore this projected committee, which I trust the house will not grant. In addition to Lord Overetone's, there was the evidence of Mr. Tooke and his pupils, who so ably represent him—any further evidence from whom would but bo a re newal of those admirable pamphlets which we all have in our libraries. Nothing can be more painstaking or im portant than their investigations. Ido not think that in the literature of any coantry is there such a mass of econo mical knowledge, combined with greater accuracy and and admirable lucidity, than is to be found in the work of Mr. Tooke upon crises. And on the Treasury bench - among her Majesty's Ministers--I see experienced states men, who have set in this house for a long period of years, and have taken part in all the great debates upon the pein ciples of currency—men thoroughly understanding any subject to which they may give their intelligence ; and am I to be told that at a moment when of all others it is most important that this subject should no longer be left in the same state in which it has been for the last 10 years, we are to give up any attempt at legislation in despair, and allow matters to drift on till fresh disasters and calamities may occur which we may afterwards have deeply to de plore ? Well, sir, under these circumstances I must express my hope that her Majesty's Ministers will reconsider the notice they gave this evening through the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I hope they will frankly answer the question whether they intend to stand by the Bank Charter Act or staa n nmoo thought nfgoudhf l l mtl t f yhte t hant h toet act t withoutfi•anlcly nwt y thshhee dielchvnoheo justified heue t e oith u pthia d eefiv :e doiar m they stand a w n d l b l y communicate that s il c nwa n rye s se t circumstances ied u ned u r idendegr to t w h which i es c u h o sn t pe h e e no y f. the most important acts of the Legislature. How can they justify the advice which they gave, if now they tell us that that is the act which they ere prep tred to uphold ? But if, on the other hand, Ministers will announce to us that while they ask for an indemnity for a step which, in an emergency, they thought necessary for the public safety and public good, they will still say—not shutting their eyes to all that has occurred—that they are prepared to recommend a measure for the adoption of Parliament which will remedy acknowledged grievances, which, in their opinion, will be a just and fair, and even scientific, settlement of difficulty. I think it will be the duty of Parliament to accord to them that indemnity without the slightest hesitation, and do all we can to assist the Go vernment in the solution of that difficulty. But against the course intimated to-night I humbly, but earnestly, protest • and if there are any hon. members anxious that the Bank Charter Act should remain untouched and un criticised, I think they will be taking a course which is calculated to imperil the stability of our commerce. I say to them there is nothing which can be more injurious to the policy which they wish to uphold than to allow a law to exist which in a moment of emergency can always be suspended, and which during moments of tranquillity can be always submitted to the investigation of a committee of the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) It does, then, ap pear to me so necessary that we should have legislation on the existing law that I do hope we shall be able before the discussions which I anticipate on this subject finish to in duce the Government to take that course which will be for their own honour and for the benefit of the country. Now, sir, there aro a few other subjects which I feel it my duty to touch upon to-night. It must be a source to the house of the greatest satisfaction if that paragraph in her Majesty's gracious Speech be correct which states that our relations with our neighbours are of an amicable description. Some of my friends have put an interpretation upon that paragraph which I myself, more hopeful, do not share in. They seem to think there is an expression of regret conveyed in this paragraph—(a laugh)—as if the noble lord I said, " I have done all I could—but there it is." (Re newed laughter.) He has come down and told us, " I have done my best to support the ' turbulent and aggres sive' system, but we are in for it." (Much merriment.) Now I accepted the belief that there was considered to be a chance of tranquillity. I fully entered into that belief until within about a month ago. About the time that Parliament was going to be prorogued—at the time when her Majesty's Ministers were going to violate an Act of Parliament, there was a great anniversary, which in this country is not merely an anniversary of social importance but also political importance, at which the head men of the country generally attend, and, in the absence of Parlia ment sitting, often convey to the public that information which in a free lend like this should be afforded. I allude to the banquet given to her Majesty's Ministers by the right hon. gentleman who presides over the magistracy of the City of London, and whom I am glad to see sitting on this side of the house. The noble lord (Lord Palmerston) attended the anniversary in question, and I shared the pervading alarm from his speech, that we were to be in volved again in those difficulties in which we had before found ourselves, and from which the noble lord is so happy in extricating us. (A. laugh.) Certainly this was an ad dress calculated to attract the attention of foreign poten tates, considering the emphasis with which the noble lord put forth his declaration. Since the speech of Harry Dun das, at the beginning of the revolutionary war, in which he contended that " one Englishman could beat three Frenchmen,"—a maxiu which, for a considerable time, was acted upon as a faot —(laughter)--I hardly know any speech which produced so great an effect, and which was more calculated to animate the heart of a country which was on the eve of being tried by an exigency of a most perilous character. It was not clear to whom the noble lord alluded, but that those to whom allusion was made were Sovereigns of no mean order no one could doubt; some people, jumping at rash conclusions, 'imagined that the Emperor of Russia must be alluded to, while others ima gined that it must be the Emperor of the French who was indicated. But the Speech of that night had dissipated all such fears, an I it was now quite clear that if there was any king who was going to make war with England it must be the noble lord's old friend, the King of Naples—(loud laughter)—and that if there be any Emperor who is really going to invade England it meat be that other friend of the noble lord's, the Emperor of China. (Much laughter.) I will not stop to discuss he position in which our plenipo tentiary in the Chinese waters is now placed, nor to express my lamentation " that the deep and eternal stain" on the flag of England has not been wiped out. However, whe ther the " ruffianly" official who presides the great city of Canton, and who, I presume, is still in office, notwithstand ing the invective the noble lord addressed against him on the hustings at Tiverton, or whether he has ceased to oc cupy that position- I say, notwithstanding this, I can certainly perceive that the quarrel with China has served somebody else's interest besides that of Commissioner Yeh. (A. laugh.) As, however, there are greater matters be tween us, I shall at once leave this all-important subject to be fully discussed on the report of the Address. Her Ma jesty, sir, in her gracious Speech has adverted to the dis tress which has overtaken seine of our commercial classes, and which, I am sure, must have commanded the deep feeling and sympathy of the country. There is not any one here, or in any part of the country, who will not sympa thise with her Majesty's declaration. (Hear, hear.) I will now advert to the subject of India. (Cheers.) It was said in 1818, when the very foundations of society in France seemed to be endangered, that France was saved by the army, and I am sure it can be said with more truth that the empire of India has been saved by the army. (Loud cheers.) It has been saved, I say, by an army which, we should never forget, owes nothing to Cabinets in Lon don or to Councils in Calcutta. (Hear, hear.) Alone they (lid it, and long will the memory of these rousing and start ling achievements live in the memory of this nation. Mr. Canning once said of India that "it was a land fertile in heroes ;" and, sir, in the use of that phrase, Mr. Canning must have been as much influenced by prescience as by memory ; for, if we look through the long list of heroic men who have illustrated the history of our country since that land has been under our dominion—amid all the com manding qualities of human nature that have been dis played as memorable incidents, I doubt whether die civil prudence, the military skill, the soldier-like valour in which we have so much excelled, has ever been displayed in a more conspicuous manner than in the instances of those glorious names now in the mouths of Englishmen. (Loud cheers.) Many of them remain—many of them will re ceive from their Sovereign and from their country those acknowledgments of their great qualities,which every Eng lishman is proud to possess, (Hear, hear.) I hope we shall be applied to in this house to express that we, as the re presentatives of the people, are not wanting in the expres siontd those feelings which such achievements deserve ; because, depend upon it, that however splendid may be the orders of chivalry, however proud men may feel of obtain ing by the sword the honours which it brings them, that the thanks of Parliament have a charm for them—as we know that many have frankly declared—and that in the hour of battle our heroes feel that they are doing that which may entitle them to the thanks of the House of Commons, (Hear, hear.) But when we remember the names of Wilsen--of Havelock— and others that may be come before us, let us never forget the intrepid Nicholson —let us warm at the mention of the fiery Neill. (Loud cheers.) What these men have done cannot be calculated until some time has elapsed ; what has been neglected by others can only be estimated when some months have passed away. What strikes us throughout these extra ordinary transactions is the total unpreparedness of those who are responsible for the condition of this great empire. Why, sir,l had occasion before Parliament was pror o g ued, to make some observations upon the state of our In dian empire—and I mention this by way of illustratio n. On that occasion I took the liberty of intimating the causes which had led to a chronic state of discontent among powerful classes in our Eastern possessions. I said then there was a primary cause for the insurrection which is now acknowledged in her Majesty's Speech to be a deeply spread revolt • of d and I said that the cause of it wa s the an nexationude. What happened on that occas ion ? Her Majesty's Government treated any allusion to Ouda as the cause of this revolt with derisive indignation; they said that nothing had ever occurred that could in any way be connected with Oude as the cause of the melanc hol y in telligence that had just arrived. They trac ed the discon tent to all sources but that. The m embers of the Go vernment ought to have been masters of the ques tion which they were treating, for they must have greatly influenced the opinions of the house. But I ask the house now if they are:of opinion that Oude has had nothing to do with recent events ? Is there any subject, whatever may be the controversy upon it- is there any point upon which men are more agreed than that the annexation of Oude was the chief and certain cause of the revolt? lam not mentioning this with a view to entrapping the house into a discussion of Indian affairs now, but to show the fatal consequences of the inattention with which the sub ject has been regarded. I said then that it was absolutely necessary to search out the canoe of this revolt, because without this it was impossible to apply an adequate re medy. Very early in the year you received intimations of the great disasters that have since occurred. On Feb. 8 there was considerable mutiny • it may be said that in dications of one had existed, and that it could not be ex pected that it would prove a revo l t --but while such lan guage might come from ordinary members of the commu nity, or from members of Parliament , it ou g ht not to come from men who were resp onsible for the g overnment of the country , wh ile in the month of February the spirit of mutiny had gi ven sufficient indications to show the sub ject to be one of great importance. and by Aprillo the news had been received in England . Those tidings were surely • enough to make men think. A month later we bad news of a considerably mutiny in different parts of It dia—that showed concert. In fact, there was evidence of concerted conspiracy throughout the country. If the Government had given their minds to the consideration of the danger, instead of affecting'the surprise of children, if they bad only been awake and alive to what was passing, the evil might have been much lessened, and the Government might have had their resources ready to meet the peril. Might it not have been supposed that the condition of Oude must be one of danger? And yet Oude was left without a trustworthy soldier. lam not going into the question of Indian administration—l am only pointing attention to the policy which loft Delhi garrieoued by sepoy yegi mente—l am discarding the great question, confining myself to the proof of the validity of the principle which, in vain, I endeavoured to force upon the conviction of the Government. No; Oude was left without soldiers—not the slightest attempt was made to send up troops from Calcutta. Onde was neglected for the reason that had been confessed and expressed by the Minis ter who followed mein the debate which took Owe on India in the late session—that (hide had nothing to do with the question of the Indian mutiny, and that it was absolutely absurd to suppose that any insubordination could prevail. At last the Government imbibed the conviction that the empire was in danger. After the expiraeion of weeks and months, and after questions put in this house, and despe rate efforts made to expose the true state of the ease, the desired result was arrived at, and your eyes opened to the greatest emergency that ever occurred to this c( >t s try You took those measures which the publie voice had forced upon you, and sent reinforcements to Calcutta. But what then was the state of India? You had the North-West Pro vinces in insurrection, and the whole of your communica tion was cut off between those provinces and Calcutta; and this because you had neglected to think of Oude and the contiguous provinces. (Hear.) All your communica tions were cut off. Even now Lucknow remains in a condi tion of extreme peril. But that is not all. You will soon have an immense army in Calcutta, and you will have to provide means of getting troops up the country. But now you have an army you have no means of carrying your troops . 5 p the country, because you counted upon obtain ing those supplies which formerly yon obtained from Oude. It was from Oude you obtained your moans of transport during the Affghanistan war, and those means are not now at your command. If you had anticipated that, you might have obtained from Madras 20,030 bullocks by means of which the army might have been moved. Bat you did not, and you have now bat 700 bullocks, the common parcel delivery companies' stocks of the country at your com mand, which are not sufficient to move more than a single battery, and all this arises from the circumstance that you neglected to ascertain the cause of the revolt before you de vised the remedy to put it down. (Hear.) I must now fora moment draw the attention of the Government to that paragraph of her Majesty's Speech which says " the affairs of my East Indian dominions will require your serious con sideration, an 1 I recommend them to your earliest atten tion." Now, I cannot doubt that her Majesty's Government will explain what this paragraph means. Under ordinary circumstances, I certainly sh ou ld h ave su pp ose d th a t h er Majesty's Ministers had measures of great importance of a legislative character to propose to Parliament in reference to India, and that they felt it their duty to take the very earliest opportunity to call attention thereto. But we live in such a remarkable age of confidential communications, and official and semi-official statements, that, to prevent any misunderstanding upon this head, I think the house is en. titled to ask her Majesty's Ministers to take the earli st op portunity of explaining what their intentions really are on this point. It is quite impossible that her Majesty's Govern ment is going to treat India the s me as the Bank Charter, and refer it to a committee. If that is their intention, the only measure to be pas=ed this session will be a reform bill, (A laugh.) But lam sure they cannot mean to tre it India iu hat way, and I hope therefore, as they thought it right to advise the introduction of this paragraph into her Majesty's Speech, that they will now inform us of its meaning. The paragraph would otherwise appear to be a compromise para. graph, as if somebody wanted to do something about India, and that somebody else was not of the same mind, but that her Majesty's Government nevertheless wished to introduce into the Speech something to show that they were deeply impressed with the importance of the subject, and had formed some opinions upon it, but were not prepared Ito vindicate the one or to justify the other. Is it, I ask, then, the inten tion of the Government to legislate about India ? Do they intend to propose a new system of administration ? We have all heard a great deal about the double government of India, and a motion was made by a friend of mine in 1853 upon the subject; but whatever the faults of the double government may be, they have not been of late years, as I can remember, brought prominently forward, and what has now occurred in India has not been an affair of administration, it has not arisen from the mode of taxation or from the way in which justice has been administered in the country—these were not its primary causes—butit has been occasioned by the general policy pursued in relation to the affairs of India, and by great neglect in those responsible for the government of that great country. lam not aware that the double government can be held responsible for those faults. We shall find out one day who is responsible; but even if the double government is to be absolutely abandoned, I, for one, am not prepared to delegate their powers to those who hac • not shown the abi lity to to discern coming events, or to devise a remedy for the evil when it arrived. No doubt, if any such measure is brought forward, this house will give it every consideration, but I cannot but express the strongest opinion that it is the duty of her Majesty's Government to be most frank in tell ing us what they are going to do, whether they mean to re commend to Parliament to legislate for India, and to devise a new government for I adia,and when they will be prepared to lay the details of their own plan before Parliament ? There is another important paragraph in her Majesty's Speech. It says—" Your attention will be called to the laws which regulate the representation of the people in Par liament, with a view to consider what amendments may be safely and beneficially made therein." Now, it is not for the house to be captious upon the conduct of a Government that thinks itself obliged to deal at the same time with a variety of important subjects. Hitherto it has been very usual to say of a Government that they do nothing, and this complaint has not unfrequently been the basis of ultimate wantof confi dence in an Administration ; but if we have a Government which takes the oppositecourso, and insteadof doing nothing does everything, it surely does not become us tobo captious. lam then, perfectly ready to concede that the Government have perfectly matured their plans upon the great subjects of India and reform, and that when the session is more mature we shall have them clu'y presented to our consideration. But with regard to this measure of Parliamentary reform, I trust that when it is introduced to our notice we shall find that it has been devised in such a way as best to tend to the public good, and not to increase the political influence of any party of this house. I will express more than my hope , will express my belief, that it it not at the present day in the power of any political com'sination to force such a mea sure through Parliament. (Hear, hear.) We are all much more learned upon the subject of Parliamentary reform than we were in the year 1832, and those who then bellowed for the whole bill and nothing but the bill have since done penance in public, and expressed their regret for pursuing a course so detrimental to their own interests. Last session I moved for certain returns relating to this subject which I thought would assist gentlemen when they had to consider this question, and I strongly recommend those returns to the consideration of hon. members. They will find them to contain very accurate and valuable information, and if that is acted upon in a wise and proper spirit, the consequence will not be injurious to those ancient institutions which gentlemen upon this side of the house at least are anxious to uphold, (Heae, hear.) There is another suggestion which I would make upon this subject. Parliamentary reform is not a subject upon which this house is called to legislate hastily. For the last five or six years there have been members who have promised to introduce measures upon this subject, and the noble lord at the head of the Government, from the first day he took office, expressed the perfect understanding of his Government upon the ques tion of Parliamentary reform. The noble lord was also to have brought forward a bill upon this subject last year. Under these circumstances, I think I am not asking too much of tho noble lord when I ask him to lose no time iu introducing his bill, that 'it may be laid upon the table, and that we may have an opportunity during the Christmas vacation and holidays of acquainting our selves with its provisions. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) No thing keeps the people of this country more unsettled than this constant idea of Parliamentary reform being held over their heads. (Hear, hear.) We want to know at once what the changes, if they are to be wade, will be. You cannot bring forward a Reform Bill affecting the political power in the country and expect the bill to be passed like a bill of in demnity for violating a commercial Act of Parliament. If a Reform Bill is to be brought in in the spring, and then you are to have a long delay before its second reading can take place, we shall either have a bill which is hurried through Parliament, or their will be considerable agitation occasioned on the subject. The Parliament and the country b •ing at present very good-tempered on the subject, the time now being favourable for a calm and candid consideration of the measure, perhaps the noble lord will take an early opportu nity of introducing it to the house—(hear, hear)--perhaps ho will name the day tonight. (Laughter.) We shall all be perfectly prepared, on the reassembling of Parlament, at once to enter into the case. The discussions may be warm and even acrimonious, but they will be past and forgotten, and the matter will be finished. But if that course is not taken, I see great reason for dissatisfaction and Parliamentary inconvenience. I trust, therefore, the noble lord will think very favourably of this suggestion. I am persuaded that, when he looks at the course which public business will pro bably take during this short session, it must be quite clear that if he gets his indemnity bill as a matter of course, which he will get if he gives a frank explanation with re gard to the suspension of the present Bank Charter Act, there really will be very little business before the Christmas holidays, and I do 'lst see, after passing that act, that the time can be passed in a more profitable or agreeable manner than in having from the noble lord the complete scheme of Parliamentary Reform which is to be introduced. I must apo logise to the house for having troubled them at such length, but on occasions of this kind one's observations must be rather desultory. The topics, however, are very important, an i in t-eating them I think we cannot do better than join with her Majesty in praying that the blessing of Almighty God will attend our counsels, (Cheers.) Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I congratulate the right hon. gentleman who thinks himself more at home in this house than he can be in any ether place, loading, as he does, a great party—l congratulate him that he should come in the height of good humour and anticipate the opportunity of placing himself in that light in which he appears to so much advantage. No doubt the right hon. gentleman's speech is one —it is impossible that I can say otherwise than that it is marked with that good humour and that plenitude of wit which characterises all the right hon. gentleman's former speeches. The right hon. member began by criticising the course which her Majesty's Government have pursued in re gard to the prorogation of Parliament from the 4th of Novem ber, and not calling it together at an earlier period. The right hon. gentleman thinks there were circumstances connected with the commercial condition of the country in October and in the beginning of November which ought to have I ecl to some different course being taken to that , we have pur ' sued. Ho did not exactly state that, but he left it of tobein ferred. There was nothing , how ever, on the 4th Novem ber which appeared to her Majesty's Government to call for that course which we afterwards found it advisable to adopt, and we therefore pursued the ord inar y mode of proceeding— we prorogued Parliament to the usual period to which from time to time it is prorogued. But the right hon. gentleman seems to argue that, by having prorogued Parliament from Nov. 4 to Dec. 17, we have preclude 1 ourselves from calling it together at an earlier period, even if unforeseen events should arise to make it necessary ; but the proof that such is not the case is the fact of our being assembled in this way. We know that if unforeseen events arose the constitution afforded us as opportunity of assembling, and therefore there was nothing in the course pursued which could in any way have precluded us from having an earlier meeting if an earlier meeting was required. The circumstances which led us to recommend to the Bank the course which they pursued were circumstances which cane suddenly upon us, My colleagues and myself felt the state of public credit, the state of diffe rent beaks, and the state of commercial transactions, did require that measure ; and if we had not adopted it I do 4 believe that very great injurr would have resulted, (Hear, hear.) To recommend to the Bank, or any public body, to overstep the law, is not a matter to be lightly, and without due consideration, done. We were unwilling to adopt that course until we found the necessity urgent and ptess'ng upon us. (Hear, hear.) I believe we did not delay long. I am quite sure we did not do it too soon— (cheers)—and I am convinced tl - at those beit acquainted with the state of matters of such moment will do us the jastice to think the - ' ' ' • ' 02t11.41011 required us to do that which no Government <right to do without all due consideration. (Hear, hear.) My right lion. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will, to. morrow, in moving the preliminary stage for a bill of indem nity, state to the house more in detail than is expedient at the present moment the various circumstances which made us think that course necessary. (Hear, hear.) With regard to that parograph in the Speech which the right hon. gentle man (Mr. Disraeli) has quoted in his usual gay manner, referring to the perfect peace which fortunately prevaa's all over Europe, the right has. gentleman made allusion to what fell from me on that festive occasion to which he re ferred, and seemed to c nsider that it announced to the country at that time that we were in danger of some great invasion, not from the Emperor of China or the King of Naples, but from some other nearer Governments. I made no such intimation, and I felt no such apprehension. (Hear, hear.) On the contrary, all the Governments of Europe had expressed the most friendly disposition to us ; and, with re .and to the Government of the neigh bouring country of Prance, it is impossible to speak too highly of the friendly communications which passed. Not only did the Emperor of the French say that if we were desirous of sending troops across Egypt to the succour of our East Indian possessions, he would use any influence he might be possessed of with the Egyptian Government to enable us to do so ; but he even said that if it would be convenient to send troops through the territory of France be would afford us every facility. (Cheers) Therefore it would have been most ungrateful and most unfouu ied in. deed to have entertained the slightest apprehension of any uuf iendly feeling existing on the part of a country which did everything in its power to show the sincerity of the friendship which it professed. (Hear, hear.) The right bon. gentleman said the few words I spoke on that occasion were calculated to militate the hearts of the people of this country. That was my intention. (Cheers.) I thought the accounts we were receiving of the deeds of our troops In India were calculated to animate the heart of every Eng. lishinau—the heroic actions of our countrymen, scattered as they were over every part of India, and called upon in small bodies to resist sudden surprises from overwhelming numbers—l felt I was only speaking the sentiments of all my fellow-countrymen when I said that 1 believed suoh acts were calculated to animate the hearts of the people. (Cheers.) With regard to what the right hon, gentleman himself said of the gallant deeds of our countrymen in India, and the gratitude which every man ought to feel to those brave men who showed themselves equal to any emergency in all parts of India, every member of this house must have joined to the full extent in the sentiments expressed by the right hon, gentleman. (Hear.) It will be my duty upon the eat liest day which the forms of the house will admit of to bring down a message from the Crown recommending that a pro. vision should be mad-, for Sir H. Havelock in additbn to the honours already bestowed upon him by her Majesty. (Lend cheers) lam sure the house will feel pleased in avociating itself with the Crown in marking the distinguished services of that gallant general. (Cheers.) General Wilson has also been created a baronet, but as he belongs to the service of the East India Company, they claim to themselves the pri vilege of doing for him what the Crown will do for General Havelock. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman wished that we should new explain to the house what course the Govern ment mean to recommend in reg,a , d to the government of India, and also in regard to the measures of Parliamentary reform. The right hon. gentleman, no doubt, would be glad to have those measures that, he might con them over during the Christmas holidays. I should hope he might have the means of amusing himself iu a manner more agree able during that season than in reading a bi 1 about India or a bill about Parliamentary reform. (Laughter.) Bat, how ever much the right hoe. gentleman may wish for this Christ. mas oc3upation, I am afraid I cannot indulge him—(loud laughter)—because it is not the intention of her Majesty's Government to enter into those subjects during the short period which will elapse between the present time and the next adjournment. (Hear.) It will be our duty, when Parliament meets again, to state our views on those impor tant matters, and until that time the right hon. gentleman must amuse himself with his own specula. tions. (Laughter.) I cannot but rejoice that upon an occasion when the heart of the country is fixed on mighty events passing in another hemisphere—when tie minds of all Englishmen must be dwelling on the brave actions of their fellow-countrymen in India- -I cannot but rejoice that it has not been thought expedient 1 y the rkle;, bon. gentleman to move an amendment to the Address weich this house is de sirous of presenting to the Throne; and I trust we shall separate to-night after an unanimous concurrence in that Address which my two hon. friends, with so much ability and good feeling have moved. (Cheers.) And I trust that at the representative assembly of the country in a moment of anxious interest —when such mighty concerns are hanging on the balance as the restoration of our power over the vast dominions of India, feeling the magnitude of the interests at stake, and anxious to show that in moments of danger and difficulty this house and the nation are unanimous in support ing. the national honour and affording every possible assiitance to the Crown - I trust, I say, that the party of the right hon. gentleman will agree with the rest of the house, and that we shall unanimously concur in the Address which my hon. friends have so ably moved. (Cheers.) The Address was then agreed to, and a committee was appointed to draw up an answer to her Majesty's Speech, in accordance with the resolution of the house. The house acljourned.at a quarter to eight. LAUNCHING THE LEVIATHAN. The uncommonly tedious process of compelling this vessel to take to the water was resumed yesterday afternoon, and attended with mere successful results than we have lately had to record. In spite of the utmost endeavours which were made to get everything forward in time yesterday morning, it was found impossible to fix the hoses of the new hydraulic rams with sufficient strength to warrant the recommencement of work till past 2 o'clock. By that hour, however, all was ready, and the presence of an unusual number of visitors, among whom were their Royal High nesses the Dukes De Joinville and D'Aumale, the Marquis of Stafford, Sir Joseph Paxton, Mr. Penn, the dockyard authorities, &c., showed that, notwithstanding the recent mishaps, the confidence and curiosity of the public were still as great as ever. Almost with the first efforts the Leviathan moved slightly and after this her tendency to the water was still more marked than heretofore, the only difference being that she was rather disposed to slip or run away for some distance. During one of the slipping move ments. the greatest distance that she has ever shifted at one time, took place. Almost directly the rams were applied to her she dropped with a slow and equal motion for 10 inches, the neat time she moved 13, and the third time only one inch. Each of these movements, how eve-, was a distinct slip —the mere first start being suffi cient to set her off. Just after she had made the second drop, the attention of all in the yard was distracted from the vessel by a most painful accident which took place outside, and in which a number of person s were ser i ous l y injured by the fall of a scaffolding on which they stood. In order to gratify the curiosity of the crowds who have daily assembled outside the yard, a large scaffolding was erected between the dead walls of two houses, about 15 or 20 feet from the ground. O n thi s craz y s t ruc ture, the very aspect of which was enough to warn prudent people from its vicinity, numbers of visitors have stood all day for the last week. Yesterday it was unusually crowded, upwards of a hundred persons, most of them men of the lower classes, being upon it, when suddenly, as the launch began, the whole platform gave way, and with its occupants came with a fearful crash to the ground. The cries and screams of those who were hurt, the efforts of the uninjured to extricate themselves, and the rush of the mob outside to the spot for a few minutes made the scene one of indescribable con fusion and alarm. At last comparative order was restored —all the more easily because nine-tenths of those who had fallen had escaped unhurt, and the casualties were ascertained. It was then found that a considerable number had been cut and bruised about the head, face, and body, all more or less severely, though fortunately none so much so as to prevent their walking away after a short time. Seven persons, however, were found to be so seriously in jured that it was necessary to remove them at once to Poplar Hospital. There they were given into the charge of Mr. Brownfield, the resident surgeon, who immediately be stowed upon them every care which their cases required. Those admitted were Henry Ridley, 33, fractured leg ; Robert Custance, 49, fractured leg ; Joseph Fisher, 39, fractured leg; Benjamin Wood, 33, fractured thigh and severe contusions; Henry Myers, 16, fracture of the arm : William Parry, 40, sprained wide; and George Matthew, 30, sprained ancle. A few minutes before 3 o'clock, after this unfortunate accident had occurred. another push was given at the Leviathan, when she suddenly slipped away from the rams, and with a beautifully regular motion, and with very little noise, glided down 6ft. 7in. This great step was made so quietly that it took the whole yard com pletely by surprise, every one looking on in mute amaze ment while the tremendous structure glided softly away at the rate of six inches in a second. The strain and friction caused by unwinding the enormous drums as she moved slowly soon stopped her. After this the next efforts were with some delay renewed and continued till four o'clock, when the result of the two hours' work was 14ft. 9in. for ward awl 12ft. 7in. aft. At the constnencement the figures of total progress stood 418 inches forward and 437 inches aft. Thus, tLen, the stern seems to have gained upon the bows during yesterday afternoon alone nearly three feet. Her total distance moved since the first attempt last Sa turday is 48ft. 7in. forward, and 49ft. 7in. aft. She has still, therefore, nearly 2)Oft. more to go before she will be entirely clear of the launching ways; but it is thought quite within the limits of probability that she will accom plish this distance in a very short time. _ COMMERCIAL FAILURES. The meeting of the Northumberland and Durham District Bank is to take place on Tuesday, the 15th, when an extraordinary state of affairs is expected to b• disclosed. The debts of the bank are reported to amount to between two and three millions, while the assets con. sist almost exclusively of claims upon mines and iron works. One establishmant alone is said to be indebted to the bank in a total exceeding by 100,000/. its entire paid-np capital of 652,8911. The suspension has been announced of Messrs. Barber, Rosenauer, and Co., German merchants. The amount of their liabilities has not transpired. Tee only failure notified in London yesterday has been that of Messrs. Hirsch, Strother, and Co., also a German firm, with liabilities, it is believed, of moderate amount. The Belfast letters mention the stoppage of Mr. G. C. Pim, largely engaged in the corn trade . ' A meeting of creditors of Messrs. Brocklesby and Wessels, corn,lin porters, whose suspension was announced on the 18th ult., was held Yesterday, when a statement of affairs was submitted, by which it appeared that the liabilities amounted to 40,4861. while the assets as* esti , eated at 22,931/., or euffic:ent to pay a dividend o t t ab 118. 3d. iu the pound. It was proposed to up the estate under inspection; after a short discussi e o r : the propositi on was accepted, and three cre ditors w vpointEd a committee of inspection. The Manchester Guardian announcest r li c e or f a a n i l M p. at Liverpool o f M r . P. M agee (Magee owner, & c . Th e s us p en sion of _ l ,, in tie corn trade, faend Corcoran), Friedrichsen, Clunie, and Co., West Hartlepool„ E x press. o also appears in the Northern issued by Messrs A statement of affairsha j Co., preparatory to a be en 7 Sanderson, Sandman, and meet ing to be held on Thursday next. A surpus is sh own of 105 , 9611 ., but this s witUunt any allowance h av i ng i been made - for some poss ible los ses on acceptances of failed firms, or for liabilities w hi c h may be incurred oa 2,015,585/. o f bills discounted, which hive yet to run off,