The Sun. — London, England, 1847-11-24 00:00:00

4 ige mild reckon nearly 100 commercial establishments in Lon ion srd r ivespoo: which had been affected by it. Tiiey - had been eharAeci with overtrading and imprudent speculalions. There certainly Was; one class whose speculation!., although prudent at the had become imprudent from the acts of the (;overrun , nt—he meant those persons who had advaoct.d their money on Went Indian oroperty—(lleaii-, hear)—and who had by the present * Government been deprived of labour at any reasonable rate. knex tninv instances in which the agents had drawn on the proprietors at home, but the hills feel not been taken up.—(Hear, hear.) If a man had a capial of 10,0001 or 20,000/. he might legitimately be doing a buinr•ss of three times that amount by the a.cl ofcreclit. All the manufactures, and the whole trade of the country from one end cf it to the other, were carried on upon that plan—(Hear, hear) — and if they were to say that persons who acted on that principle were over-traders, and deserved i.o sympathy or pity, they would destroy, as they had in fact already destroyed, the great portion of the commerce of this country; for, as commerce must be carried on upon ca pital and °reins, the credit had been entirely withdrawn, the rate rrf•interest demanded amounting to a suspension of credit altogether.—(Hear, hear.) What had been the exp - nrience of the country with reference to the Bank Charter Act? At one period, he believed, the rate of interest had been down as low as 3 or even 2} per cent., and then all 'at 'once it had run up to a sum which had caused a total exclusion of credit. If it was not the intention of the Government to institute an inquiry into the working of this Act— The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had not stated that the Government did not wish such an inquiry. Lord ASHBURTON maintained that if the Govern ment did not intend to alter that Act they had called Parliament - together to encounter a greater amount of unpopularity than any Ministry had ever yet had to contend with. He considered it most unwise to force the Bank to exact an interest of 8 per cent. If a high rate of interest, amounting to 8 or 10 per cent. were required, it would absorb all the profits of trade, and destroy their manufacturiug and commercial prosperity, for manufactures and commerce would go to those coun tries where capital was cheaper. The Government re quired the Bank to get a minimum interest of 8 per cent. when money could he got elsewhere at 5 per cent. The Noble Lord opposite praised, and very properly, the Government fur issuing the order they die, but if they had done so sooner a great deal of mischief and ruin would hare been avoided. That was proved from the general confidence which ensued upon the relaxation of the restriction. He apprehended that the corn laws had a great deal to do with the distress. There was of course a necessity for importing corn to a large amount, and the balance of trade turned against them, but not to any serious extent. The whole amount of - bullion sent to America did not exceed 4000,0001. or 5,000,000/., but th e exc h anges w i t h t h e Continent.wete in their favour. What great matter was it that this.emounteras sent out of the country while the I3mk had 15,000,000/. or 16,000,0001. in its coffers. Ile believed that, were it not for the Bank Restriction Act, they would have gone on without any panic what soever. Some Noble Lords were constantly in the habit of employing the word free trade, and using it as a pass -word for everything vicious in legislation.— (Laughter.) 'They also talked of the benefits of cheap fleas. lint if they made things cheap by legislation, and at the same time diminished the means of those who W ere to purchase these cheap articles, he did not see the benefit of it.—(Hear.) Lord BROUGHAM could not blame the Government for having called Parliament together at this very early and most inconvenient period, seeing that they had Placed themselves in-a position which made it possible, and even probable, that a Bill of indemnity might be ne cessary. If the Government thought it right to apply for such a Bill they would find no difficulty in getting it. (Hear.) I t was hi s own clear and deliberate opinion,that in the earlier part of autumn sufficient pressure existed to require the interposition of the Government. When he saw the effects produced on the whole com merce of the country by the acts of the Bank itself, by its lowering the rate of interest first, and afterwards sud denly raising it, when it ought not to be so suddenly raised, and then ultimately raising it so high as to Uneunt to a refusal, and at last also lately refusing to discount, and this at a time when the pressure on the commerce of the country became insupp or t a bl e , th at h e whether * h the existen ce o f thi s great b o d y, w i th bts te d powers and its al mos t un b oun d e d i n fl uence over whole commercial concerns of this empire, was not ;learly•purchased by this irregular and unsteady action. zio man more deeply felt than he how uch of he wretched state of Ireland was owing to the m impolicy t of Y e ars,, gone by ; no man more read i ly confessed how ` uti cit was due to that coun t r y f rom t hi s an d from the !Inpire at large; but, above all, one thing was clear and . r u eyond doub t , th at b e f ore an y attempt could be made to t e PaY what they owed in what was called " justice," or doirretr.ace their steps—if st e p s h a d b een ta k en i n a wrong . t on L e ttoo—in her favour; before anything could be at thg rvted, or thought of, or named in debate the one `a needful was, that the preseet state of that , country ,e "'ug t, by the for ce o f th e l aw, b e ' a l tered. It was .said that it was o n ly i n f our or fi ve counties that•this tinate of things existed; but, if a ll owe d to con ;ettieLt would not long be confined to those b eo ei t (Hear, hear.) For what was the language k by these wicked men, and by their still more wicked, tbecause less ignorant, leaders—(Hear, hear)—whether hatr clerieal, but they could not hope to put an end to te_state of things till the law between landlord and t s u s a ,nt Was settled, and some compensation was made to :to latter. What they wanted was, that there should be Shoulrent, and that the relation etween landlord and should cease - altogether, or else that the tenant Zd becom e the landlord, and the landlord the tenant. o (1-le ar.) And, therefore, even it he saw a law which .uld adjust the different relations between both pe nes the most fair and equitable manner—as he con fessed no was not able to see his way to any such law— Yet he should say the present is not the time for it. It must ees..be thought of or dreamt of until tho law has ben vindicated, and murder and instigation to murder ()have been-put down. Ireland stood at that hour in a !Wen of shameful and hateful eminence. It was the neighbour o f t h e most civili ze d nat i ons of the world, btadroyet there was no country, inc l u di ng t h e most bar- Hius .and savage,in which life was not more secure. mould wait to express his opinions more fully haddti e " measures which h er Majesty's Governmtn • contemplation w ere before the House. ° put fersurtn PP no quarter of the 'louse need they nursiosition to any measures framed w i t h a; v i ew of ng an end to the frightf u l state of things which tt_ttel in Ireland. Let not Noble Lords o pp os i te f e ar ePposition of this or that knot of Members, or seek neutralise their enmity. Let th em th ow themselves their dente and the country ; let them depend on t me asures, and he would answer f or i t t h ey would Th e general support from both sides of the House. ne ti ,Y o would have the satisfaction of doing their duty Thereut risking t h e i r author i ty or t h e i r tenure of office. ern e o lv w ft 3 part of th e su bj e ct whi c h it was almost difficult to abstain from touching up on as to allud altar° j t '7 l le- meant denunciations of persons from the . so me i f t he Pasto rs o f t h e peop l e. H e b e li eved that ae cou n e tnese had already committed illegal acts, if the z ,, s "IS of their incitements were not very much ex , enerat e e re ach but it the law was not found sufficient to st ate o ilew, or if the exscution of the law in the peculiar co _ t society in these districts where these denuncia , re , tl 2,a e lld to .k place should be found to be sur oe;V..el with insurmountable difficulties, then let the h e which the Government was about to ask for, . it „,"'n e ee .so stringent as to reach them without doubt ; ust desire to there Via s no real friend of Ireland but to see her greatest criminals brought to °DEN had . recently returned from Ire th_, wished to say a iew words relative to the state t orti '" "tnitry. Great as was the speech of the Noble I . 4etaii (L o rd_,.‘r Stanly), true as . were its details, no s o of ever came up to the reality of the resent state n slater country —(llear, hear.) It w p as not his lot the fle e in but districts . wh ' hilt these outrages occurred, n, o u te e had near relatives and valued friends there, for fate he felt the deepest anxiety In Limerick A PPerarY, and Roscommon' it Was notorious that gentle , atmen were platted on th e li sts of victims to be murdered such periods as to the murderer might be conve nient, Th e names of parties thus marked were well flown. To some of the m i t had been suggested to leave the country, but he would give the House the reply made by a Noble Lord, who was well known to them, to a suggestion of that description. '• I am placed," he said, " in a high and important station here, and Whether= life or death be nay portion, here I shall re niain."—(Cheers) It was an appalling circumstance to bear in mind in what this horrible state of things originated. It originated in a wicked press, which, day after day, promulgated the most sweeping calumnies, n ot against individuals, but against a w hole class, hold , ..ing them up, -'as had been done -elsewhere, this year, as . t Tonly:to-:be swept from the face of the earth."— ear, hear.) Nor was i t on l y b y the press they were __us branded. At public m e eti ngs s i m il ar calumnious . "atenitents were made, and the consequences were such I :!tucks as they now almost daily, nay, hourly, heard of. Ze_ hoped th e G overnment would show•themselves in ear dies? givin g p ro t ec ti on t o lif e an d property in those h e recta. What measures they ought to, or would adopt, w ould not pr e t en d t o sa y ; h e suppose d , however, • -hat tine of the first steps would be to disarm the people. reothing could be more preposterous than to see labou . Ge r i ! , a 5 happened at present in Ireland, come into the " tO work with arms of all sorts, pistols, muskets, and • .h o e n blund er b usses, in their hands. An Arms Bill, • eZ e ee er, would no t b e enoug h. Th e y wan t e d a reme d y oi - . ) ,n'sttainst an op en , b ut a l so aga i ns t a secret foe. An but ti f " they might mee t, an open f oe th e y m i g ht fi g h t , nehin:i'y had to meet in Ireland a shot from a foe hide en tfi e e a wall.—(Hear, hear.) They must deal with , thi s r e° l 3l e, too, not' as they would deal with them in we_neountey. In Ireland joy was openly expressed tn''Qateatheserder was comthitted; the country was illu- Publi c ' bo nfires, blazing from hill to hill, signified the Pl• °habl r'l°jein g. and yet the man who had fallen was ts„, no tyrant but a humane and liberal-minded . ‘""d• Th G Th ee e overnmenn then, Must' be in earnest. th e n' :_if_" B . t.. mot mind the opinions of this or that man; l,t4ine.metiodawsfuteivl.oolc straightforward, and do what was right Whatever their measures might be, there er, one subject of great congratulation, be ' s tu t el ,; ) , , : B l .l l they would be carried out by ono of the eord Lieutenants of Ireland. Lord Cla• reeej seemedn • the se"peculiarly fitted for his purpose. During reshort time he had been in Ireland he had secured alaattachment of all classes and every right•thinking nnarwyou_ldearejoice that it was by him that any extraor carried measures sures for re storing tranquillity would be Earl w T A d of the laaguage se es last session with re gar to the laddlords of Ireland. lift e d - complained should be glad to know if Government had made any Ineculations as to the number of persona for whose sus 041'(14deu.reoinugpth,e.e present year. r n alleo it would be tlt importseemed h f i r m o f r l o r m e - necessary rn -that there would he at least two • p 7 . e ‘42, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, NOVEMBER 24, 1847, ROUSE OF COMMONS, Nov. 23. The SPEAKER took the Chair to-day at Twelve o'clock, and the swearing in of Members was proceeded with. Among those who were sworn we noticed Mr. Hudson, Sir John Yarde Buller, Lord Robert Grosvenor, Mr. Wodehouse, Mr. Bankes, Sir J. Pak ington, General Lygon, Mr. Tancred, Mr. Wilson Patten, Mr. Redhead Yorke, Mr. Dillon Browne, Mr. John O'Connell, Mr. Greene, Lord Euston, Sir R. Fergusson, Sir James Graham, Mr. Oswald, Mr. E. Ellice, Mr. W. Evans, Mr. F. O'Connor, Mr. F. French, Mr. Currie, Mr. Ewart, Mr. G. P. Scrope, Captain Harris, Mr. Mitchell, Sir E. Hayes, Sir E. Buxton, Mr. Childers, Mr. Maxwell Fox, Mr. Lowther, Mr. lleald, Mr. Clifford, Lord Alford, Mr. kiouldsworth, the Right Hon. F. Baring, Mr. J. Hume, Mr. B. Cochrane, Sir Lucius O'Brien, Colonel Rawdon, Mr. Forbes, Sir Charles Douglas, and Sir Wni. Jollife. Shortly after two o'clock Sir Augustus Clifford appeared at the bar, and summoned the House to the _ _ House of Lords, for the purpose of hearing her Ma jesty's Speech read by commission. The Speaker, accompanied by about 200 Members, rnmediately proceeded to the House of Lords. After an absence of about a quarter of an hour, the Speaker, accompanied by the other Members, re turned, and the House immediately adjourned till a Quarter to Four o'clock. The House resumed at Four o'clock, when about forty Members were sworn in, amongst whom were Lord George Bentinck, Mr. R. Cobden, Mr. Charles Buller, and Mr. Villiers. The swearing in occupied some considerable time, and long before it had closed the House became tolerably well filled with Mem bers. On the Treasury side there was scarcely a va cant seat, but the Opposition benches were not so well filled. Still there was a thick muster of the Oppo sition, and some time before the mover of the Address rose to deliver his maiden speech the House presented an exceedingly animated and interesting appearance. Mr. Feargus O'Connor took up his position on the Opposition side of the House, on the front bench, next to Lord George Bentinck, with whom he held a long conversation. Sir James Graham was early in attendance, and resumed his former seat on one of the back benches, but Sir Robert Peel did not arrive till about half-past four. Shortly afterwards Lord' John Russell, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Sir George Grey entered the House, and they were immediately followed by the mover and seconder of the Address, who were attired:in militia costume. The SPEAKER intimated that Members who had been elected for two or more places must, within 14 days, elect which place they will sit for. Mr. HARCOURT gave notice that he should move that "a loyal and dutiful Address to her Majesty, praying her Majesty to exercise her Majesty's undoubted prerogative of summoning within her Majesty's realm of Ireland the Peer spiritual and temporal of that realm, and the knights, citizens, and burgesses thereof, in order that her Majesty may take counsel with the same in regard to the great and manifold derangements and sufierings of that kingdom."--Agreed to. NOTICES OF MOTION. RAILWAYS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice that, on Tuesday next, he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to extend the time for the purchase of land byrail way companies. TElh RECENT COMMERCIAL DEPRESSION. The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER gave notice that, on Tuesday next, he would move for a Select Committee to inquire into the causes of the recent commercial distress, and as to how far it had been effected by the laws relating to the currency. CRIME IN IRELAND. Sir G. GREY gave notice that on Monday next he would move for leave to bring in a Bill for the prevention of crime and outrages in Ireland. TIIE UNION. Mr. FEARGUS O'CONNOR gave notice that on Tuesday, the 7th of December, he would move for a Select Committee to inquire into and report upon the measures by which the Legislative Union of England and Ireland had been brought about and upon the probable consequences of the continuance of or a repeal of the union (as we understood). FOREIGN AFFAIRS. Mr. C. ' ANSTE f gave notice that on an early day he should move for the return of a num ber of papers connected with the administration of foreign affairs in this country from the year 1829 down to the present time included, to illustrate cer tain charges of high crimes and misdemeanours which it was his intention to bring against the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.—(Lau g ht er .) DECIMAL COINAGE. Dr. BOWRING gave notice that on Friday next he should inquire of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Master of, the Mint (Mr. Sheil) what steps had been taken with respect to his propositi on t o es t a bli s h a decimal coinage?—(Laughter.) ISLE Oil - MAN: The HoN. Memnext g'a:ve notice that 'on the same day he should ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether it was his intention to move the appointment of a commission to inquire into the civil and criminal judicature of the Isle ef Man. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION. t fortni ght ,o A t h l e r . m 1O nhn l ee t rSA should l n A which h gaveeh callt t hhee no ticeEcclesiastical attention ine t ts h iioa a ns t ioc o fa n it this he H o d u a s y e Commis sioners had'carried out the Act of William IV. VEORUTRONINN,ING bEBA' ES Mr. BRO A I hgeanvetrtlice on • Monday gjournment of a thSpeaker should he should move that debate was moved and seconded,e adjourn the House without putting THE QUEEN'S SPEECH.—TId ADDRESS. The SPEAKER reported that he had attended th House of Peers this day, and that her Majesty e de livered by commission a most gracious speech. (The Right Hon. Gentleman then read the Speech.) Mr. HEYWOOD (who wore the uniform of a Deputy-Lieutenant) then rose to move that an humble address be passed to her Majesty for the gracious speech which they had heard that day, and in doing so he said he had to request that indulgence which the House usually afforded to young Members who for the first time rose to address it.—(Hear, hear.) He felt that this indulgence would be the more needed by him, because he was not en abled to congratulate the House upon the prosperity of the country. He regretted deeply to state that the commercial affairs of the nation had been for some time past in an alarming state of de pression. The cause of this depression was, pro bably, undue speculation in railways that speculation which so peculiarly characterised this iron age in England. The capital authorised to be raised by Pariiament for the construction of lines amounted to no less a sum than 299,000,000/. ; 161,000,000/. had been already paid upon shares, leaving 138,000,0001. more outstanding. This enor mous capital was of itself enough to cause a crisis and to lower the income of the country, but when to this was added the deficient harvest of last year, and the failure of the potato crop, and that time disasters led to A great dimi nution in the demand from foreign countries for our manufactures, and that great poverty existed throughout the country, the House could not fail to see that all these things must have materially acted upon the manuTacturing interests. In Manchester, where the cotton trade was settled, the weekly demand had decreased from 30,000 or 31,000 tons weekly, in 1845, to not more than 9 0,000 at the present time. Besides this, there had been over-speculation in Calcutta by the large East India houses—over-spe culation in corn, and tie result bad been very great millions of people so situated in Ireland this winter as to depression in trade, and rest difficulty was experienced getting discounts even upon good bills, and it wai l s 1 generallyconceded that some thee must els.pse before :.-! th r i r e e ed re i l t d h t e h n a , v v, t , b o e ni p d ot b a e t c o o c n r l o e p o l i v . o , l a i l i d e 5,600,009?. Let tli6u not look alone remaining an improved state of things could be brought about. crime of a people, let them look somewhat to their ors 1 The Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) and the n i e t n: a s s vh s a ta t, te tress.—(Hear, bearo The state of things this. year I Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir C. Wood) under thesre would be, he had no doubt, worse or quite as bad as . circumstances recommended the Bank to enlarge its during the last,and England must not imagine that it and _ .. he believed if they had not done so had done with Ireland until it had taken measures to discounts; raise the people froea the slough into which batl legis- at such a critical period, that a much more serious lation had cast them. derangem en t wou ld have taken place.—(Loud Earl GREY said that, looking at the history of the cheers.) That was the part of a skilful pilot present year, he did not think it was expedient to en. during a storm. Confidence was in a great mea courage the people of Ireland to look to the Govern- sure restored, as persons with good bills could get nient for relief from the pressure of their present them discounted. At Newcastle there was a run cu!ty. Last year, tinder a great calamity, it had been upon a bank, and the manager of the Bank of Eng necep ssa ib y e to rto coc ext ceal that the ents assistancgrantinge to Ireland ; re but lief was it was land in that t own h a d t h e good sense and lil e imoss rality to advance money on good security. attended by many very ser i ous ev il s. C erta i nly he did Such was the demand th a t h e h a d to send by not think that in the pres e nt s t a t e o f t h e country i t was expedient to h o ld ou t any h ope to t h e people of Ireland the electri c t e l egrap h to L ee d s for more mousy, and a parcel was di spatc h e d t h e same day, showing that anything yeas to, bo obtained from the Gover nmen t. That there was distress in Ireland he did not doubt. that the Bank did all it could to allay the excitement The Government, however, had stores of corn in hand, that prevailed, and to afford all the accommodation and the British Association still held great funds apish- in their power. The Government was thererefore per cable to cases of extreme want, He did hope that fectly justified in what it did. Happily there these funds would be considered sufficient for the relief was no infringement of the Bank Act, although such of Ireland. With regard, however, to one point in the an impression seemed to prevail. He was glad to speech of the Noble Lord (Stanley), he wished to state, find that the Bank yesterday reduCed its discounts to before he sat down, that it was the intention of the per cent. I n a s h ort t i me h e b el i eved the Bank • • ' Government to instatute inquiry into the cause s o f t h e • recent commercial tdstress, and particularly as to h ow would resume its wonted arrangements, and that far it was attributatsle to the limitation of the issue of its business would be transacted as usual. The notes payable on dernand.—(Hear.) state of Ireland alluded to in the Speech could Lord REI)ESDALE asked if it was intended to origi- not fail to cause the greatest concern to the House. nate any and what measures in that House? Also if any There was one part which he was sure the llouse Committee of the Lords was to be appointed on the cur- would agree upon—that the atrocious crimes which reney question? Earl were a dark page in Ireland' s hi s t ory must GREY replied, that with respect to th e Bills be put an end to in som e way or other. likely more immediately to co me b e f ore P arliament, he No doubt a thorough investigati on wou ld b e made, feared it mi g ht b e necessary to originate ail of them in and measures brought f o r war d t o ena bl e h er M a j esty ' s the other Ho use . Wi t h respect to the last question, they Government to support majesty of the the certainly had not intended to move for a Committee in law, and to suppress, by a ll means, the fearful the Upper H ouse o f P ar li ament., crimes which w e r e every d ay perpetrated. The Addres s was t h en agreed to. CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES. He was happy to see that in her Majesty's Speech The Earl of SHAFTESBURY was re-appointed Chairman allusion was made to a measure for the social im of the Committees, provement of the people of that country. The Lord Their Lordships adjourned till to-morrow at Four Lieutenant of Ireland deserved the warmest coin o'clock. mendation for the admirable system which he has pursued throughout the whole period of the distress. He had, with great judgment, turned the attention of the agricultural interest to the improvement of their crops, and had also recommended that lecturers should be employed in lecturing in different parts of the country for the purpose of instructing the peasantry in the best modes of improving the condition of the soil.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to our foreign relations, the House would be happy to hear that her Majesty still relied upon the continuance of amicable relations with foreign countries. With regard to the civil war in Switzerland, he was happy to hear that means would be taken by her Majesty to endeavour to restore peace to that country. There were few countries in Europe possessed of more dignity than Switzerland, and the circumstance of one of the most important states in Europe taking an interest in their affairs, and endeavouring to a rrange - t h em for them, would no doubt tend very much to harmonise their unfortunate differences.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the slave-trade ' the House w ou ld b e glad to learn that her Majesty had concluded a treaty with the Republic of the Equador, by virtue of which ships of this country were empowered to search vessels sailing under the flag of that repub lic. In pursuance of the system of free trade, there was no doubt that the navigation laws would be brought under the serious consideration of the House, with a view to their amendment and modification. The subject had obtained the serious attention of the House during the last session. A Committee was then appointed to inquire into the operation of those laws, and an amusing work had been written upon the report furnished by that Committee by the Hon. Member for Stoke-upon- Trent (Mr. Ricardo). A measure respecting the health of towns, more especially with respect to the metropolis would, he was happy to hear, be brought under the consideration of the House. This was a subject which pressed particularly upon the attention of the House, now that there were ap prehensions of the return of that fatal epidemic which in former years had visited this country. He felt convinced that the best preventatives to the spread of the cholera were to be found in abun dant supplies of water and an efficient drainage of the streets and alleys of large towns.—(Hear.) With regard to the sufferings of the working classes, he most cordially concurred in the commendation expressed by her Majesty of the exemplary manner in which they had borne their privations.-- (Hear, hear.) From his own personal know ledge of their conduct in Lancashire he felt convinced that they also deserved the respect of this House. The Hon. Member concluded by moving the Address, which was, as usual, an echo of the Speech, Mr. SHAFT° ADAIR, in rising to second the motion, claimed the indulgence of the House upon the same grounds as that of the Honourable Member who moved the Address. No person who had witnessed the severe distress and privation existing in this great capital during the course of the late stoppage of trade, could fail to app rec i a t e th e feelings whi c h had induced her Majesty to authorise her Ministers to agree to a proposition which might have involved an infringement of the existing law. The course then pursued deserved the warmest thanks of the House.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) With respect to an allusion that the late abundant harvest had mitigated the pressure of distress, he trusted that this House would shortly adopt some measure to ensure, as far as possible, a prosperous and consecutive employment of the working classes —(Hear, hear.) With regard to the navigation laws, there was no doubt but they required a ' full consideration and a tt ent i ve examination. He did not, however, imply by examination an abandonment of those laws, and he trusted that in that inquiry no prejudication of the question would be allowed to bias the result to which the House might come upon the subject. —.(Hear, hear.) Projudication for the abolition of those laws was equally as fatal to a full and fair inquiry as prejudicative to their conservation.—(Loud cheers from the Protectionists.) He was happy to hear that cheer from Honourable Members oppo• site, and he trusted that when called upon to enter tain the question they would submit themselves to the task of a full and fair inquiry into the whole subject. If he thought the mighty efforts of this empire were to be crushed by the alteration of these laws he would be the last to vote for such an event taking place. But he knew that such would not be the result. He believed that all that had taken place was temporary, and would soon he set right. It would afford the House great gratification to learn that another link had been broken which bound the slave, he alluded to what had taken place with respect to the Equador.—(Hear, hear.) So long as England was the friend of the slave they might depend upon it other nations would follow their example.—(llear.) England had great weight in the councils of the world, and her dvice and Ex ample would go a great way to do great good. He inferred, from the assurance given in her Ma jesty's Speech, that a better day would soon shine upon the world, and that that which was now dawn ing beyond the Alps would soon extend to these kingdoms.—(Hear.) With regard to the health of towns, it was hardly necessary he should refer to the subject further than to express a hope that no delay should be allowed to take place in bring ing forward some measures on the subject.— (Hear, hear.) The cholera was already approaching the shores of this country, and the sooner attempts were made to arrest its progress the better.— (Hear, hear.) There was another topic alluded to in the Speech, which he approached with a great sense of oppression on account of the overwhelming interest of the subject ; he alluded to the melancholy and dreadful events that had lately taken place in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) To render life desirable it must be made secure. —(near, hear.) The State had the rig •ht to demand an of i t account of th e sp illi ng of the blood s meanest subj ect.— (C When h e reflected ries of "Hear, hear.") in I re l and, knowing °I 1 what had taken place people of Ireland were, hhe did w h a t the his hea r t sickened at the e must confess that hear.) Former outrages hadcsontemplation.—(Hear, them, but those that had later eth ta in k g to extenuate none, In former times the Ymadneen Place had tics might lead men into-ciime, but,sih of k P°l t o i. the Legislature, no such thing existed now. thanks horrible . to see the gigantic figur e of dal: murder raising its h ea d i n Ireland. He he": lieved that these fearful crimes might be checked by the law as it at present existed. without resorting to force, but at all events life must be preserved, and if it could not without re sorting to military force, it would be far better that that should, be employed than that such dreadful murders should be allowed with impunity. But while it was necessary that they should have re course to measures of a coercive nature, it was equally necessary that they should accompany those measures with plans that may be well adapted for instructing and educating, while they improve the general condition of the people.--(Hear, hear.) It would be the duty of the Legislature to set the people of Ireland a moral example, and to teach them to look to the Government of the country not only for protection against the musket of the assassin, butfor instruction in virtue and encouragement in doing good also; and while it was the duty of Go vernment to seek out and bring the criminal to jus tice, it was equally their province to teach the people that a distinction could not be drawn between that criminal or the parties who prevented his falling into the hands of the law. They must teach the people that to harbour or conceal a criminal was a great (crime, a great moral crime, hat ought to he punished with as much severity as the criminal himself—(Hear,: hear.) Ile had heard with satisfaction that while. the Government were ready to vindicate the majesty of the law, by punishing the criminal and suppressing outrage, they would be no less prepared to resort to remedial measures. It was not his province to antici pate what those remedial measures were , or to speculat e upon th e p ro b a b le reception they will meet with at the hands of the House ; but, if he mistook not, those measures would be highly calculated to develop the almost inexhaustible resources of the sister kingdom. Those who had travelled through the country, as he had done, and witnessed her vast re sources, must be aware of the existence of a wide field for the exertions of the Legislature in spurring on the people to industry and wealth. From experience he could tell the House that great good might be accomplished in this respect, and he should look forward anxiously for the success of those mea sures which might be introduced, with the view of developing the boundless resources, both agricultural and commercial, of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Whe ther such measures, or similar measures, would be brought forward or not he could not venture positively to say. He thought he might be permitted to call upon the House not to look to those remedial measures for any immediate success. The blood of the Saxon was not infused into the veins of the Englishman in a day, nor could Ireland be regenerated in a day ; but let gene ration after generation continue to make untiring efforts fcr her improvement, and the Legisla ture every time it met would hare cause to congratulate itself that its exertions had been gradually productive of improvement in the sister kingdom. But the Legislature could only assist the country in improving itself. It could not, by its own resources, and with its own measures, reform the condition of Ireland, and he hoped the people of that unfortunate country would readily second the efforts of Parliament. In the belief that the objects he had dwelt upon, if carried out, would promote the welfare of Ireland— that ifa large, general, comprehensive, intelligent policy were adopted, it would alone tend to the regeneration of that unhappy country ; and believing that such would be the policy of the House, he begged leave to second the address.—(hear, hear.) The SPEAKER then read the Address, which was merely an echo of the Speech. Mr. H. GRATTAI rose almost at the bar, and said he deeply regretted that he was compelled on this occasion to address the House. The Hon. Gen tleman, who appeared to labour under a severe cold, and who, consequently, was not heard distinctly, proceeded to say he had thought that the crisis which had occurred in Ireland would have been avoided. Nothing, he assured the House, but an imperative sense of public duty actuated him, and other Members from the sister kingdom with whom he had hitherto acted, to rise. He had heard her Majesty's gracious Speech. Some parts of it met with his entire satis faction ; other portions he had heard with great regret. He was sorry also that many parts of the speech of the Hon. Mover and Seconder did not call forth in him corresponding sentiments of satis faction, because he thought there were other means of probing the wounds of Ireland than by means of a speech. Some parts of the speeches, however, he h a d rece i ve d w ith satisfaction. He wished, however, that the Honourable Gentlemen had devised some means by which Ireland might be extricated from the false position in which she was placed. He wished the Hon. Seconder could have propounded some panacea for his unhappy country, instead of giving it a lecture upon agriculture, as he did not think that his propositions would afford salve to the wounds of his unhappy country. They had full time to discuss the question, for England was at peace, her character stood in high estimation, and the new s l ave treaty, like the 20,000,0004, had added new laurels to her crown. France submitted, and America would not meddle with them. They had, therefore, plenty of time for deliberation. The Honourable Gentleman looked forward to the day when the union of the people of the two countries would be stronger than at present. But he did not think that an union of poverty was the best, and that Ireland should come every day here with a petition of distress. Her condition was deplorable, and the murders they read of were hor rifying. The union he wished to see, and it was one that would promote the happiness of the country, was an union of concord, and not merely of parchment. He saw an union of parchment but not of affection. The amendment he now proposed was one affecting both Catholics and Protestants. He reprobated as much as any one the horrible crimes and murders which had disgraced his country. He thought that that country ought not to submit to be stigmatised either as a nation of beggars or marauders. They were neither one nor the other. The Lord Lieutenant had lately stated three things—that the Poor-law bad not succeeded ; that it had not been fully carried into effect ; and that he trusted that Parliament would soon adopt some efficient measures. Now, what were those remedial measures ? Was it the Landlord and Tenant Bill ? Was that a Bill which could be called an efficient remedial measure ? It was not ; it would not cause a social compact in Ireland. The landlord and tenant question was not a social one. There were parties in Ireland who thought that enough had not been done to mitigate the distress of their country. They had to return their thanks to many individuals who had acted nobly and liberally.—(Hear, bear.) Those persons had won for themselves the heartfelt thanks and gratitude of all parties of Ireland. Their names, though they were not known, would be remembered with feelings of gratitude.—(Laughter.) Those whose names were known would receive the warmest thanks of the people of that country.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the distress of the country, he, with other Irish Members, was not of opinion that sufficient had been done by the Legislature. The poor-law would be of no service. Nu merous boards of guardians had refused to carry out that law, and had in consequence been dismissed. The property of Ireland was in a great degree gone. He knew one nobleman who had an estate of 7,0001. a veer ; of this sum 6,0001. went for interest, and all that he had to live upon was 1,0001. a year, and that 'he could not coll ect. — (Laughter.) This would give English Members an opinion of what the rental of Irish property was. There was one parish in Cavan in which the whole amount of the food was under seizure for distress. What, then, was the state of things ? The universal distress existed; the poor-law could not relieve it. The whole of the food was under distress, and yet th e w r e tched individuals still lived. Would not that account in some degree for those horrible acts of assassination and crime which had recently taken place ? He held in his hand copies of five hundred and fifteen letters from Roman Catholic clergymen, in answer to letters sent them by th e Relief Committee of this country, stating the numbers of persons in distress in each of those parishes, the length of time which the distress had lasted, and the means which had been adopted to remove its pressure. The Hon. Gentleman then read a statement in cor- , roboration of the observations he had made, and having done so, asked the Members of her Majesty's Government whether they thought that a poor-law would do for Ireland? He thought before her Majesty's advisers had prepared her Majesty's Speech they would have done well to have consulted with some Irish Members on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) If his Noble Friend at the head of the Government went on to govern Ireland with the same materials as he had done he would find that he was taking a wrong course. Men in Ireland would not now collect the poor-rate, although they had been offered 25 per cent. for doing so. The great cause of misery in Ireland was its absentee landlords. What was to be done in this state of things? Why, let them send back the absentees; let the landed proprietors discharge their duties, and they would have very little of these disturbances. Why did not Lord Palmerston go back to his estate in Donegal ? —(Hear, and laughter.) They had heard whispers towards the close of the last session about selling- up the Irish landlords. Well, he had no objection to that, nor had he any objection to sell up the Noble Lord whom he had just named. Why did not Lord Lansdowne go back to his estates? He certainly had no fault to find with the Noble Lord's agent, although he had built two-storied houses for the cattle, which the cattle could not get up to ; but let Lord Lansdowne go back to Ireland and do his duty, end they would hear no snore of these shocking complaints. No man more lamented the present state and condition of Ireland than he did, but if the E nglish absentee were allowed to con tinue receiving rents, and to leave his tenants to the mercy of the assassin, lie i\r saw no who set :all prospect of a change for the better. despised athnodsgeowodhogoterlantrileatlaw, defiancetos,eor those who o one more inorali ty shou ld h set man sought to establish a system which against man, class against class, tie e did; but that they it was not by agricultural lectures could get rid of such villians. It only by enforci ng th e a b sentees to return their duty that th e y cou l d hope to brinaan was do reformation i n th e present state of Irelani. 6 o h ie o d u a t r. a Ejectment was the chief cause of the outrages in Ireland. What had the poor man to depend upon ? Nothing. He had seen then, women, and children turned out of their cottages, and left to die in ditche s in a way that was disgraceful to a Christian country. He cried shame upon such conduct. Ile trusted the Noble Lord would carry out the law, and hoped the Irish Members would aid him ; but there was one law which they could not carry out. The law of ejectment directed the sheriff to put the landlord in possession of his land ; and father, wife, and sickly children were turned out of their houses. They fired the houses to satisfy their revenge, And the Mw mit! not The amendment having been put from the chair, Mr. IL DRUMMOND (West Surrey) was under stood to say that he agreed with the Hon. • Gentleman who had spoken on the subject of tenant right, and that he wasfrepared with a Bill upon that question in Eng land. t would be presumptuous in him to offer sugges tions to her Majesty's Ministers for the better govern ment of Ireland, but still he would beg of them to have the courage to put in force their repeated promises of impartial justice to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever might be the character of the present House of Commons —whatever of the evil surmises with regard to it might be realised, ho was confident that there never was a House assembled with a more firm determination in the mind of every one of its Members to do their ditty, t influen ce d by mere''o put an end - to the syst em o f b e i ng words and conventionalities, and, to use a homely ex pression, to show that the days of "sham" by. lie begged to as k w h y was the Yrotesta w n e t re Church established in this country (as we understood) an d the whe but because it was accordant with feelingsrefore of the rnajorip, of t h e Ivo the _ e 3 f 7 r therefore be carried out. How could they expect the people who were tmated • thus to do anything else than seek to gratify their deadly revenge. Ile wee not exeuzing the outrages which had been perpetrated. He was merely stating the:cause of them. A l an dl or d h a d f reighted out ships to carry some of his tenants to an other land. They were shipwrecked, and these who returned imagined that this had been done purposely. He pulled down houses, and made the land into sheep walks. A fortnight after he was shot Another, who had made his fortune in, the wars, made a provision in his will that his heir should, to entitle him to receive his property, clear his land by ejectment, and that if he did not do so the property was to go to another, and if he acted likewise, to a third; and if he refused that it should go to the public. (Hear, hear.) lie and those who acted with him complained of the speech which the Noble Lord had framed, because it did not suggest any remedial measures. Now, he had stated the measures which should be devised. Let the Government adopt them. A deputation of the Catholic clergy had waited upon the Lord Lieutenant, and they were told by him that if ever there was a country deserving relief it was Ireland, just emerging from fearful calamity, and about to enter upon a state of calamity which found them unpre pared for it. The Honourable Member then proceeded to quote further extracts from the reply of the Lord Lieutenant to the addresses of the Catholic clergy in Ireland. It was the duty of the Government under this state of circumstances to endeavour to obtain a settlement of the verata guestio of landlord and tenant. The English farmers were calling out for a settlement of that question. Would the Government still continue to refuse an adjustment of that question ? The country looked with deep anxiety for some measure to be brought forward calculated to settle that question. The English people were calling out for a tenant right Bitl, and would they deny it to Ireland ? Unless security was given for the outlay on land no tenants would be got either in England or Ireland to lay out money in land. Let the Goiernment do justice to the Irish people and they might depend upon it they would hear little more of the dreadful mur ders that were taking place in Ireland. The Government ought to give to the people of Ireland persons who would look into their local affairs. Let the House remember that they could conciliate six millions of people by conceding a measure which could bynopossibilityinjure the country. The Irish party hitherto had exhibited the greatest forbearance towards her Majesty's Government, and the least they could do was to continue them their aid and assistance. With these sentiments he felt constrained to move as an amendment, that "Although the existing poor-laws might be adequate to supply the wants of some districts in Ireland, it did not meet the exigencies of others, and it was therefore absolutely necessary that immediate measures should be adopted to prevent pestilence and famine amongst a large number of her Majesty's Irish subjects." Mr. ROCHE seconded the amendment. He said that, as regarded the six counties, the agrarian crimes com mitted in them were even worse than what was described by the public press. The amount of poverty and social disorganization in Ireland was frightful; but he thought her Majesty's Government and their supporters might have been prepared to recommend something beyond the vulgar expedient of the bayonet. He would say that it was an expedient which was not only vulgar, but futile; for, upon looking to history, they could not fail to observe that after centuries of coercion, martial law, and blood, Ireland was now in a worse state, socially and physically, than she had been for several hundred years. Any attempt to save Ireland by a poor-law was useless. In some places that law might be carried out fully, but in others it was impossible—in such a place, for instance, as Skibbereen, where the valuation of the property under the poor-law amounted to only 96,0001. a year, or, in other words, to about one penny per day for each man. He (Mr. Roche) had come in con tact with the lower orders in Ireland as much as any man. As an agriculturist he employed as many or more than any man in the United Kingdom, and from his experience he had come to a conclusion far dif ferent from that which was usually entertained, that the Irish people were naturally prone to crime and in gratitude. In his own country, where he carried on an extensive business as an agriculturist in places far asunder; and as a landlord of 20,000 acres of land, he did as much as any landlord in England did. He had promoted an extensive emigration; he had dismissed his tenantry and punished them in every form when he thought them worthy it; but he could say with truth, that since he was 19 years old he had never been mo lested, or threatened, or interfered with—(Hear, hear) — and this was mainly owing to the fact, that he tried to act justly and fairly.—(Hear, hear.) He bad no bolt to his hall door, and any boy of ten years old might push it open at night. It had been said that there was some thing in Celtic blood which was prone to crime and dis order. But when the Irish came to England, or when they went to America, did they shoot or assassinate ? Was there ever a chairman or railway .director shot ? What was the reason that in every country in the world the Irishman was quiet and industrious except in Ire land ? Why because in those countries he was treated with justice. He thought resident landlords gene rally acted well and fairly. But there was al ways in Ireland, from tho members of the government down to the pettiest landlord a system of injustice which was creative of all the crime and bad conduct in the country. As to the question of landlord and tenant, no one who had ever written or spoken on the subject but admitted that the existing state of things was unsound, and ought not to be con tinued. That question was a far more vital one in Ire land than in England. In Ireland, if a poor man had not land, or was not employed on it, he must die; whereas, in England, there were manufactures and other means of employment to which he might turn. The question of tenant-right must be settled, and the tenant should have a right to the value of the money which he had laid out in improvement by selling the occupancy. They (the Irish members) as a body would never con sent to a Coercion Bill till the promises which had been made to the people of Ireland to inquire into the radical causes of the evils and misfortunes from which they suffered were male good, and everything which could be done to redress them was effected. With regard 'to crime, he (Mr. Roche) thought there was no reason for going beyond the present law for its suppression ; but then that law must be carried out efficiently, which had never been done by the executive. The whole system for the trial of criminal offences, both at the assizes and before the assistant barrister, was unsound, and the business carried on in an inefficient manner, With regard to the police, he thought it a most incompetent body. It was said that no one assieted in the arrest of criminals. But did the police go in the pursuit of them ? Take the case of a man in Tipperary of the name of Harding, who was se verely beaten. It was said he had a gun, and should have gone in pursuit of the persons who maltreated him. But why should he have taken the whole fight on him self, when within a mile or two, there were five or six lazy policemen polishing their guns, who were not on the alert. There was also great inefficiency in the man. ner in which the Executive was conducted in Dublin. It was composed of men who did not understand the country, and who were idle and gossipping persons. Not one of the heads of departments was an Irishman. The head of the army was an Englishman. The head of the police a Scotehman. It would he very difficult for the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) to govern Ireland with advantage to the country and himself, when ho had not the means of knowing the real state of the country. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member tor Tamworth was still worse off, for he had not in his Cabinet a single Irishman; and 'in a Ministry professing to govern the United Kingdom this omission was a direct and palpable insult to Ireland. The Noble Lord had certainly one Irishman in his Cabinet, and the Lord-Lieutenant was perhaps better than any Irishman. He (Mr. Roche) had the highest opinion of his abilities and his desire to serve Ireland. When he learned and knew the country, he would probably become " Ipsis Hibernia Hibernior." Still it would be better if there were men in the Cabinet who understood that country. If they would settle the relations between landlords and tenants—if they would not see the poor die—if they would not stand by their crotchets about the poor law —it they would take care that those should be fed who could not feed themselves, they would see Ireland tranquilised. He protested against a Coercion Bill, till it was proved that the present law was pro perly carried out. What had ever been done by a Coercion Bill? What would be done by an Arms' Bill, except to disarm all respectable persons, and place them at the mercy of every vagabond ? By a Coercion Bill disaffection was created among well-disposed people. In 1818 an attorney in Tipperary defended 1,441 men under the Rebellion Act, and out of them only eleven were convicted ; and afterwards seven of the eleven were shown to have been unjustly convicted, and were pardoned. No doubt justice was done on the four who were convicted. The remainder of the 1,441 were ren dered disaffected. The immediate remedies for Ireland were to feed the starving, to settle the relations between landlords and tenants, to reorganise the executive, and to be just and fear not. Mr. S. ADAM explained. He had expressly said that the power of the law was sufficient to suppress crime, but that it would be better that the bayonet should be used than that the present misgovernment, amounting almost to a dissolution of society, which WAI going ou in those unhappy districts, should nut be checked Ti!e An ..Pcotland ? Becan ee th ere also it was agree able to-the opinions of the iirt , jority. If the Government sent ten bishops, a thousand prie sts, and 40.000 bayonets, they might establish an Episcopal Church in Scotland, but on what principle of justice could it be done? Ye;in might vote million after million for Ireland, but they would be inefficacious uelcss measures were taken 85 that there should not be this dlicr4ancy between - Eng. land, Scotland, and Ireland, which did not exist in any other country in Europe, and which even a Roman Catholic royal family in Saxony did not require. Justice required that the people of Ireland should be kept from starving, but it should be by their own labour.—(Hear, hear.) It was true that the poor-law had hitherto proved inoperative, but everything which had been said to night showed that the Irish gentlemen did not know how to work it. Sir G. GREY was anxious to draw the attention of the House to the terms of the amendment to the address which had been proposed, and which, limited as they were, would probably • be lost sight of amidst the grievances of Ireland, of which the debate was likely to be so fertile. The amendment set forth that " although the present poor-law might materially alleviate the existing distress in some districts in Ireland, yet, as it would be quite inadequate to do so in others, it was absolutely necessary to devise immediate measures to avert famine and pestilence from a large portion of her Majesty's subjects in that country." On the part of the Government he regretted that he must offer the most decided opposition to the introduction of such an amendment on the Address in answer to her Majesty's gracious Speech from the Throne. The spirit of this amendment was opposed to the spirit of the ob servations of the Hon. Gentleman who moved it, in which he expressed a desire that a feeling of self-reli ance should be excited among the people, and that they should be led away from that degrading system of de pendence on extraneous aid which would be promoted by the adoption of this amendment. It was necessary, in the great calamity which befel Ireland last year, for the Legislature to interpose with a large and unsparing hand to save the lives of thousands: But was there such a perpetual necessity as to make the.recurrence of such measures perpetual ? And because the people were preserved from a calamity which was pressing them into the grave last year, and which it was said might again arise three months hence, were they to be taught not to depend on themselves, but on the exertions of others, and on grants of money drawn from' the taxation of the country? It had been assumed, both in the House and elsewhere, that the poor-law had proved inoperative. It would, however, be admitted when the information which was now in course of preparation was laid before the House, that the poor-law, although in some parts of the country it did not meet the requirements of the aggregate poverty of Ireland, yet that its re ults were sufficient to gratify the expectations of the Parliament that passed it; and the terms in which it bad been spoken of in her Majesty's Speech showed that it had materially assisted in the alleviation of distress. The sum of 300,000/. had been collected by rates before the introduction of the present poor-law in Ireland, whereas in September of the present year, and since the operation of the new law, 73,0001. had been collected, and in October 121,000/., as compared with 26,000/. in the same month last year, and in the present month there was no doubt that the collection of October would be exceeded. Those funds were raised from the land in Ireland for the relief of the poor by the exertions of parties appointed to carry the law into effect, by some who in that House (as we understood) had expressed a wish to carry the law into effect, and on the other hand by paid agents, where those who had been elected for the purpose had failed to perform their duty. The Hon. Gentleman wbo had moved the amendment had alluded to the boards of guardians which had been dissolved, assuming that that had been done because they had failed to carry the law into effect. The whole correspondence on the subject would be laid before the House, and, therefore, he (Sir G. Grey) would not enter upon it, but he would say that it would be found that the Poor law board were justified in the course they had pursued in placing the local administration of the law in the hands of those whose obedience they could compel. He believed that the law was 'working well in the great majority of the unions. There were 130 unions in Ire land, and he believed that in only twenty .two aid would be required in addition to the rates to meet the exigencies of the people. But did it follow that an amendment would be adopted which recom mended the passing of measures to avert famine and pestilence, which, of course, meant grants of money, without its being known what measures would be brought forward by the Government ? A large store of provision from last year was still in the hands of the Go,vernment, which would be applied to meet any extraneous distress ; and they would meet every case of emergency, if possible, without the neces sity of the interference of the House by further grants of money, although on this point they would be able to speak more confidently hereafter. Ile trusted that by the exertions of the landed proprietors and the people themselves, poverty would be relieved and industry re vived, and that reliance would not be placed on the Government, but on their own efforts. Ile would read .an extract from a letter of a gentleman employed by the Poor-law Commissioners at Bantry, one of the unions in which the board of guardians was dissolved. It was to the following effect :—" He hoped that no public works, as a means of relief, would be sanctioned. He believed that, with the assistance of the British Association, they would get on well, and that the landlords must give employment. They never were in a better position to improve their property, if they knew how to take advantage of it. They had seen enough of temporary advances to knew that the parties who received them were worse off afterwards. The Government could give assist• ance after local efforts had been made, but nut else." Now, the spirit of the amendment which had been pro posed would lead the people to suppose that the Govern ment would do everything by grants from the Treasury —a spirit which they could not do too much to discou rage.---(flear, hear.) Having thus dispozed of the amendment, he (Sir G. Grey) must say a few words upon a subject touched upon by the Hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Roche)—namely, the state of crime in Ire land. He (Sir G. Grey) would not now enter upon these painful details, which it would be his duty to lay before the House on an early day, upon bringing forward the Bill (of which ho had to-night given notice), for the pre vention of crime in certain parts of that country, Ile must, however, say that he could corroborate the state meat of the Hon. Member for Cork, that the allegations contained in the public press in respect to crime did not apply to all parts of Ireland. lie joined with the Hon. Member in his denial of the assertion that all the Irish, from the north to the south and from the east to the west, were assassins. --(Hear, hear.) On the contrary, her Majesty's Government believed that there weremany parts of Ireland in which life and property were both as safe and secure as in any other portion of the dominions of the Crown.—(Hear.) With regard to those remedial measures which the Hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Grattan) and the Hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Roche) seemed to think ought to accompany any measure of coercion, he must observe that neither one nor the other of those Hon. Members had done strict justice to the Speech from the Throne; for the very passage following that paragraph to which the amendment has been moved states that "her Majesty views with the deepest anxiety and interest the present condition of Ireland, and she recommends to the consideration of Parliament mea sures which, with due regard to the rights of property, may advance the social condition of the people, and tend to the permanent improvement of that part of the United Kingdom."—(Hear' hear.) On e o f t h ose mea sures, ho could assur e both his Hon. Friends who had respectively moved and seconded the amendment, was that which had relation to the question of the individual rights of landlord and tenant—a subject which had deeply engaged the attention of his Noble Friend the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland and of the Government, and it was intended to submit a measure on that subjebt to Parliament on an early day. At the same time, looking at the Bill introduced last session by the lion. Member for Rochdale (Mr. S. Crawford) he (Sir G. Grey) could not but remark that the question was not free from dia ficuity, and he could not nook tnat the question of per manency of tenure, which by the 13111 alluded to would be given to a mere tenant for lite, could be disposed of in a short BLii, as waned to be supposed. To the subject, however, he repeated, the most atistioth and careful attention had been directed, as the para graph he had quoted from the Speech from the Tnron, indicated.—(Hear, hear.) lie did not wish now to anticipate the discussion of these measures in detail; but thus much he had felt himself bound, in justice to the Government and himself, to state, alter the obser. vations which had fallen from the mover and seconder of the amendment. He also must request lion. Members to suspend the expression of any opinion upon the work ing of the Irish Poor-law Act until they were in the possession of that. accurate information on the subject which would very shortly be furnished to • the House. Having done this, be must also express a hope that his lion. Friends the Members for Meath and Cork would adopt the advice tendered to them by the Hon. Member for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond), and not press their amendment, but concur in carrying up to the toot of the -Throne a unanimous address in answer to the Speech with which the new Parliament had been opened. In conclusion, he could not but add a hope that on enter ing upon the busine ss o f a new P a rliament everymea sure intended for th e i m p roveme nt of the condition o f Ireland would be r e c e i ve d with the absence ofthose motives which frequently influenced political opponents, and that the prevailing feeling would be to give a candid attention to measures intended to place the prosperity and happiness of Ireland on the most permanent and enduring basis.— (Cheers.) Mr. J. O'CONNELL said he could not hold out to the Right Hon. Baronet, the Home Secretary, any hope that the Address in answer to the Speech from the Throne would pass with unanimity; for, even it . the amendment now moves! was got rid of as suggested, a second amendment would be moved in relation to the promised Coercion Bill. That was a preposition which would necessarily awaken an angry discussion. liar Majestv'a Government were much mistaken if they thought the remnant o f prov i sions in the Governti;ent det tits would suffice to meet the distress which must continue in some districts where the poverty as to render it i mpossible to collect the poor as such e Then oul what hope cou ld b e entertained that thepoorra-tleas; meet and comb at w i th the mi sery,destitution and dis d ease which pr eva il e d? The last return of the Relief Commissioners showed that 3,000,00 of population were receiving rat i ons relief , and that the minimum expense of these rations would amount to 7,000,00 d. Let him remind the Government of th e s t ate of alarm which ex isted in 18 34 in England, when it was shown that a poor -rate to the amount of 7,000,000/. would be necessary to meet the di s t ress which then prevailed in this portion of the realm. Ireland was a poorer country, and what must be the feelings awakened by the declaration that 7,000,000/. was required in the shape of a poor-rate to keep her people from starvation? He held 111 his hand 1110 n frightful details of the exteut of the existing tus" • • ________...„...• tress in the w es t ern di str i cts of Ireland, but which were I a mere instalment of the terrible accounts with which the House would soon be furnished by the Reman Ca tholic, clergy, acting in obedience tcs the circulars issued to thtm by their , bishops. He had so frequently observed, such an entire ignorance of Msh matters displayed iii that iienve, which had been exhibited again that:, ven- - dog, that h e telt constrained to read to the House the information deri ve d : from the sources he had mentioned.. f The Hon. Member ItulneirtnetbleprLelf;hdesaitngsrieigate t l , epa t , i t i .h e R r:.: v tu . E rt . is F in e : e d .. e , fronts t hree district hi Roacommon by the Rev. Michael Bre n. rent, nave and from other lie man Catholic clergymen in diffe rent parts of Ireland, nil eoecuraing in th j e statement and poultry— wh;;et; that hundreds there dying of ' t 2r and disease; that famine had done awl was (Thing its tvorh, that te re sources—cattle, pigs, lit rci e ulizo enabled the ruttier to pay les rent, had all been ab sorbed, and that the prospects of the coming winter were more alarmieg than the season which had passed. They came from men who had an intimate connexion with and knowledge of the people —men who risked theirlives ; n attending the death-beds of their fever-strieken parish ioners. In the midst of this destitution, misery, and dis tress, what was there in the measures as yet promised by the Government. to meet it ? These statements concur that the country was in an infinitely worse con dition now than it was this time last year—that there was the same deficit in the potato crop_that the clothing of the people was worn out, and that they would have to pass through the winter nuked and hungry, and labouring under fever. This was a state of allege which called thr the entire attention of the Government, instead of their devoting the whole stress of the Queen'; 'speech to their letter. en the question of the restr:ction of the Bunk Charter. He implored the Government to give their serious and undivided attention to the state of Ire land. At present he did not gather from the speech of the Right lion. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) that they were to have anything beyond legis!ation on the question of-the rights of landlord and tenant. Necessary as such a measure was, it was insufficient to meet the relent ren dition of the country. Let the Gevernrraint deliberately consider the state of Ireland, and enact measures to raise that starving nation, and to restore 'her to permanent prosperity.—(Hear, hear.) If the unfinished roads were taken up they would give much employment, form useful works, and avoid th e c h arges f or damages done to land. Let Government adopt some such measure for temporary relief, and they would do considerable good. Let them charge Ireland as they liked afterwards, but let life be saved for the moment. A statement from Ministers of the additional relief they were prepared to grant would produce vast good in Ireland. The letter which the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) had read was a cruel and heartless production ; and it was not right to bring forward such a letter anonymously. The Times would not dare to write as it does against the people of Ireland, if it was not backed by a large party in Erighind, who gave to that infamous, calumnious, and felon paper the largest share of their support, and thereby identified themselves with its outrageous attacks on the people and the priests of Ireland. Nothing could more directly tend to a separation between the two countries than the infamous attacks which perpetually appeared in that journal. He implored some of the Ministers to give a general outline of the measures they were pre pared to adopt for the relief of Ireland before the meet ing of Parliament in February ; and if even this were given, the Irish Members would not persist in their amendment. He fully concurred in the statement of an Hon. Member, that the House was bound to teach the landlords that they had duties as well as privileges. The Hon. Member's parallel between English and Irish crime was decidedly to the disadvantage of the former, in respect of the abominable character of the crimes. On the question of coercion, he must say that great re paration was due to the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) from those who had succeeded him. Why had they ousted him ? He had just effected a great reform, and done much to redeem the errors of his past conduct towards Ireland ; hut the moment he proposed a Coercion Bill, the present Ministers turned him out, and now proposed to do just the same thing.—(Hear, hear.) His (Mr. O'Connell's) sympathies had long been with the party of the present Ministers ; he had thought them in many respects in advance of the English public ; but he could not conceive how the Noble Lord at the head of the Government could propose a Coercion Bill, after his past declarations, without first attempting to relieve the miseries of Ireland. and to cat ry out his own promise of patting the axe to the root of the evil. Deeply did he deplore the change that had come over the Noble Lord. Surely there must be something in the nature of office which wondrously altered men's sentiments.— (Hear.) Having referred to the speech of the Noble Lord, in 1846, with respect to a Coercion Bill, be (Mr. O'Connell) now said to him, increase the police and the military, and even, if necessary, send down special commissions, to try the offenders, and puniish them severely ; but let him not infringe upon the con stitution. What was there in the present state of things, even in the accounts of this day, to justify such infringement ? Did not the Times of this day state that the people had turned out to assist the police in captur ing the murderers of Mr. Hill ? At the very moment the people were showing such anxiety to aid the course of justice, was it right to bring down upon them these extraordinary powers ? Another instance of the same kind was recorded in the county of Limerick, one of the most disturbed counties. Why not foster such a spirit, rather than repress it by these arbitrary pro ceedings ?—(Hear.) It was said, he believed falsely, that landlords who were most humane and indulgent to their tenantry, had been sacrificed. Look at his Heu. Friend the Member for Cork (Mr. Roche) and his rela tive, who were resident in Tipperary. Were they afraid of being shot at ? Were they obliged to keep at home? He rejoiced to be able to adduce the Hoe. Member as a proof of the good feeling of the tenantry in Tipperary, which would be general, if all landlords were like the gentlemen he had named. Mr. Philip Ilianconi was another instance. Mr. B. OSBORNE—He is not resident. Mr, O'CONNELL said ho was. Ile regretted that his Hon. Friend who had interrupted him, and who had recently gone into Ireland, bud got amongst a set of bad advisers; and he feard he would become a specimen of regular 'Tipperary landlordism. Let him beware, for there was something not right about him. He might also mention as good l an dl ords in the same county, Lord Lismore uud Mr. Shadwell. (Hear.) Doubtless there were where ; he only wished their number was greater. In conclusion, he must charge Ministers with having allowed eighteen months to pass without doing anything for the benefit of Ireland. Why had they put the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tam worth, out of office, when they had proposed nothing to relieve Ireland, and now did the same as he had done, by bringing forward a Coercion Bill ? Let th e House, especially the new Members, refer to " Han sard," and see the strong declarations the present Ministers had made, only eighteen months ago, against coercing Ireland ; and let the new Members beware of giving their support to such a proposal. He must ex press his conviction that the people of Ireland and their sentiments had no weight here ; there was no know ledge of, or sympathy with, their distresses. On the question of coercion, he should think he was acting with the grossest inconsistency, if, alter opposing the measure brought forward by Sir R. Peel, he should now support a similar proposition because made by the pre sent Ministers. Sir B. HALL had hoped, that after the speech of the Right lion. Baronet, the Secretary for the .Home De partment, the amendment of the Hon. and Learned Member for Meath would have been withdrawn. He believed that it would have been withdrawn but for the speech of the Hon. and Learned Member who had just sat down. He (Sir B. Hall) would ask that Hon. and Learned Member what he had done for the people of Ireland ?—(Hear, hear.) The English people had sent over eight or ten millions sterling to recover their dis tress, and that immense sum had been promptly and cheerfully granted. The Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny held a distinguished position among his countrymen, and, insu ad of doing anything practical to relieve their distress, he had sanctioned the use of lan guage towards them of the most it:eliminatory nature.— (Hear, hear.) Language inciting to murder and assassie nation had been used in his presence, and that, too, by high dignitaries in his own church, and he had not, by curd or gesture, reproved that language.—(Hear, hear.) Hun. arid Learned Member had said that before oereion Lills should hiss he would fall a victim on the hoar of the House wet:of:mons. No wonder, then, if the Hon. and Lea reed Member should oppose such mea sures, if it were only to retard his own immolation. Let the house only se e into what state Ireland har t been brought by the agitation going on in that cuu t f , i , tf r e t: One Repeal itesociatiou was bad enougie batl i w a w sa,in4 was no less than four. lle had nu hesitati on ome of them. that the scheme of repeal carried on by s was without ever coming toanything, , from year to year, humbugs that had ever k.:eis one of the great..st polit i ca l verily believed, diet hear.) Be • perpetrated.—(Hear, for the motion placed on the paper by t h e had it not been Hon. Member for Nott ingham, the question of repeal pass over this year as it had been a ll ow ,t 1 to w ould have in former years.—(throe hear.) But for th a t mot i on, he (Sir B. nail) had made up his mind t o p ut a • question which , should put repeal at once upon its mer i ts before the House o f commons. —(Hear, hear lie believed that with the lion. and Learned Member for Kilkenny it was a merelcuon de parler. H e remembered to have heard a man—whom he admitted to have been one of the greatest men of his day—(Hear, hear)—he meant the late Hon. and Learned Member for' Cork —state that he• would lay his head upon the block if repeal were not carried within six months from the date of his observa tion. Still the same assertions were made, still the same humbug carried on in the face of the people of Ireland.—(H ear, hear. The Honourale in Ireland, and quoted speeches of the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny, made in each. enny, or three of those speeches the lion, and Learned Member had vowed to die on the floor of the House of Commons before he permitted a Coercion Bill to pass for Ireland. Ail he (Sir B. Hall) could say was, that. if such a catas trophe should happen, his Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury would be in readiness to hold the necessary inquiry. —(Hear, and laughter.) As to coercisve32mehae sures, although he had voted against them d. " tec l l in ehould now, looking at the murders com e m t i t t e hands art Ire land every nay, be prepared to stren ; t e ar, hear.) Ito Covert - an nt in every possible way.— in Ireland—ho believed that there was a class of fs m en w 0 h might do a meant the Roman Catholic priests—who were so inclined. great deal to prevent violidice anything against th© lie did not mean to insinuateuse he knew that among them priesthood as a body, he: lary men, but he saw a sad were a great many " o -e ndu P c: of the priests of 1847 and contrast between the conduct by the priests of 1762. In that which had been p . lemn fast was ordered for the succ ess o f th a t year a so his Majesty s , ' arres and the priests published an address ex horting t he people, in the most emphatic t erms, to the preservation of law and order. Would f o G o d t h ey could hear of such exhortations no w .—(H ear, hear.) 'hey bad heard lately of pue of I % very di ff erent oltaN: . "1 ier ne sed hat tho de le- "Sir re ast