The Sun. — London, England, 1847-02-16 00:00:00

and winters ; .for seasons, had not ;e and fever then hat they were to Munster sod gaol fever, a nd for a benevolent also. The same daily with the , and the most o say that much loubted whether approach to which the iced was, that e called upon •ould be repaid. nd might really s, whether they on for speaking 11 the clamoured live in luxury and one thing y did not pay so ire at least free ry. There was irations, though the cess-ta x es , :ere not subject ell, at least they -taxes, amount 'try had to pat , ,nor, as it did to !thing must be he west of Ire' over to Liver' say that persons day were 0 111 ' 2r parts of the came there to • He was to ld • position in life in this country who were fit t° cry few wort' ae value of the 5,000,0001. or • This was S iy laboured, for , r failure of th e have felt it his was not in the own charity-- iot giving meal , one of whoo lief of the ein his opinion he Learned Lotd many as 4,0 0 °, n one part 0' 3 made by th a his address t° lat it w as not ssions at BIN' was correct and they were •e, because no hen the Noble ion with great 'ech which th e ,-as more acri - He did net to the eject. out of 6,2 0 in, that this I emigrated to !jectments sad Tsons to collo been ejected that the pr°' that pur arpose by THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 16, 1847. and forced upon Ireland measures of permanent relief and pro vision for th • people—which would increase the evil—would be anverse to the opinion, and condemned by the judgment of the ed uca t e d and intellectual classes of Ireland, and on whom the burden of taxation was about to ;all. Nothing could be more fatal than the passing by a British Parliament of a mea ures ofif poor-law relief condemned by the principal representa tivesthe country. He trusted, - although the question was not then before their Lordships, he might be permitted, in no . spirit of hostility, but rather with the view of making sonic suggestion, as h e thought there were suggestions to be made on points which should be regarded with the gravest con sideration—he would suggest to their Lordships on three or four provisions much which ought to be borne in mind, and which it appeared to him was not borne in mind in providing a permanent poor-law for Ireland. They were about to frame a poor-law for that country. They were about for the first time to confer an absolute right of relief unless some alteration had been made in the first clause of the Bill as it was now submitted to Parliament. By the Bill as it stood at pre sent, hoards of guardians of the different unions of Ireland were not only authorised and empowered, but authorised and required to make some provision for all persons permanently disabled, infirm, and so forth, either within or without the workhouse, as it might seem to them fit. The present law gave to the board of guardians permission to relieve but in the workhouse only. The Bill they were about to introduce re quired the guardians to relieve either within or without the workhouse. He thought ho was not wrong in what, he said with regard to the aged, to the permanently disabled, the aged and infirm. They ought to confer the right of relief on t hem, but they ought not at present to go further. He believed on his part, that although many heavy burdens were borne by the resources of Ireland, the provision was not a judicious one. They were, however, going further, for it appeared that a pro vision was to be made for the able-bodied, either within o r in certain cases without the doors of the workhouse. They were authorising the Poor-law Commissioners to require the board of guardians in certain cases to provide for the able-bodied out of the workhouse. The provision might be a neees_ary one, but it was one from which he completely dissented. It might be one for which there was the greatest possible occasion, but it was a power which had a te ndency more than any other to extend and increase indefinitely not only the pressure of the poor-rate itself, but also had a ten dency to create a desire in the minds of the Irish people to desert their labour.—(Hear, hear. The point to which he wished to call their Lordships' attention was this, they were about to lay every burden upon the land of Ireland—they were about to require the land of Ireland to supp ort the g reat bod y •f destit u t e persons. It was not unworthy of their Lordships' consideration, and he trusted that it might not be lest sight of by the Government, whether this provision under which a limited amount of relief was now granted, and which might have been found wise and effective enough with regard to the present constitution of boards of guardians, might be found equally wi s e and safe when they came to grant a more ex tended and a greater measure ; and he was sure that they would find and impose on Ireland the full amount of burden which England was called upon to bear, and they were bound in fairness and candour to see that the property affected by the measure was justly applied, and to grant a protection to it at least equal to the protection granted in England. There were two other points. Ho was not about to discuss them then, but he trusted that he was not improperly occupying their Lordships time by making some suggestions.—( Hear, hear.) The condition of things, with regard to the poor.law in England and Ireland, was different, because society in Ire land was very much divided into very high and very low, and that fact formed a most important consideration. With refer ence to the formation of boards of guardians, the boards of guardians in England, tite middling farmers were almost gene rally the persons called upon to officiate, but that was the very class which was most deficient in Ireland, and from which it would be impossible to form boards of guardians. The tenure of the power devolved in Ireland in a great measure on very much lower and poorer classes than it did in England—on classes little above the labourers themselves. It might be well for their Lordships to consider that, if this were the case, ' there should be interposed between the guardians of that class of persons and property some security that it shou:d not be wasted, and that there should not be less security in Ireland between the guardians and property than could be obtaioed in England from the present system, and yet the law as it now stood limited the amount of er officio guardians to the number ordinarily allowed in England. Those upon whom the pres sure of tbe Irish poor-law would fall in the first instance would be the landlord rather than the occupier. It might be said that the landlord was the proper person to bear it, and was the Person upon whom the pressure ought to be made to fall ; and therefore it would be better, when they were about to make a provision for out-door relief, to provide able-bodied persons from the funds of the parish, that those persons on whose pro- Pert> , the taxation would fall should have a preponderating voice in the framing of that taxation ; and if they should have the board constituted of small farmers, paying one-third of the amount of taxation, while two-thirds fell upon the landlords, he was afraid that in many cases there would be a great temp tation to an improper extension of the rate, and the i c mis management would be greater as the amount of parochial rates Yied up on th emse l ves b ecame sma ll er . The great object they oad in view was to raise this class of farmers to he themselves employers of labour. They ought to compel them to te empl oytell labour ; for to tell him that the landlord c ould supply l a b our t o the extent required was him that his property would be confiscated, and therefore er ePtoyment should be provided by the farmer. If they r elieved th e f anner f rom thi s o bligation they would induce the to throw their labourers out of work, and trust to the chance of obtaining labour at a cheaper rate out of those sup- Ported by the poor-rates. No measure could be more indis- Peosable than this, for where the sates fell directly on the far merhim himself, the pressure was the most wholesome and only ° ate mode to p reven t the i m p r ovident expenditure which a different system of poor-laws would introduce into Ireland. Whatever m i g ht b e sa id aga i ns t the Irish landlord, he (Lord Stanley) was satisfied that there was more justice and more od sen se i n E ng l an d th an t o m ake a provision by which, he believed, that the farmer could impose duties and burdens which could not be borne by the landlords of England ; and to say that they should have no voice in the assessing of rates ; that they should have them assessed on those who were the Person s to pay by small farmers, who were altogether exempt fro m Payments—who had not the means of employing labour — who had not the inducement to employ labour, but who voted for the relief of persons from burdened estates, which would be in a great measure confiscated by him. He (Lord Stanley) was satisfied that in England, where this class of farmers were more respectable is point of property—he did not say of cha racter— that if they had the control, and only one-third of the payment fell upon them, much dissatisfaction would be caused. There were two other points, which, as he was on his legs, he would venture to suggest to the consideration of her Majesty' Government, acid there was one w hi c h h e considere as ell important, if they meant really to Fut a check upon expenditur e , an d t h at was the question as to whetherthe rates. should b e l ev i e d upon the townlands or the districtseleeTral He knew th a t p roposa l s had been made to throw coming burden of taxation on the tow n l an d s . H e considered that because they were to o sma ll, some of them as forty or fifty acres, a n d an assessment on so smallga asscaloew was impossible. On the o th er h an d , h e was rather inclinedts: re think that the electoral di v i s i on, as t h ey were at nt individual stituted, did not err on the sid e o f b e i ng too small; ) theyse con toe large to give scop e , or sufficient scop e , to were responsibility for the management of property—rather for the prevention than the payment of rates. He was sure that if they still further t axe d th e li a bili ty of proprietors,' and from the electoral divisions threw the burden of taxation upon the unions of Irela n d, ins t ea d o f t h e e l ectoral divisions, frora that moment landed there was a n en d t o a ll i n d ucement to the proprietors to take th e sma ll est part or i nterest in the management of their own property. H e f e lt i n some d egree interested on this ques tion. Their Lordships must make all due allowance for that matter in the weight th e y a t tac h e d to his observations; but when he said that he was an Irish proprietor, h e sa id t h at i t was contingent up on th e decision come to upon thi s matter he t bhe? would e whether he should or s h ou ld not continue u mere point to which, if th ey would forgive eo' fie had one it h . urge upon the consideration o f th e House, hnir was one of sufficient importance to be introduced at this early period, although it would be discussed whe n th ey came to con eider - the provisions of the more permanent measure. It e; this—a declaration—a legislative declaration —which in Eng land would appear to be uncalled for, because he believed that the public sense of every board of guardians would have carries! it into effect. Under the provision made it was stated that no man could be allowed to be destitute or entitled to relief when, at the time, he was the occupier, or in possession of land. He did not mean, when he said land, sufficient for a garden, about a quarter or half of an acre ; but when he made the following observation, he should have the concurrence of nine out of ten men acquainted with Ireland. It would be the ruin of the country if they at once sanctioned the union in one person, the two characters of pauper and land occupier. There were a great many small occupiers in Ireland, who were quite in as much distress as other classes, and the board of guardians mould say that he should have relief, so that half of the year he would be a land occupier and the other half a psuaer, de teriorating in value the parish from which he derived his relief. Unless all these considerations were taken into consideration, no measure could be introduced at all calculated to reduce the distress of the country, without leaving behind it evils worse than those it was intended to cure.—( Hear, hear.) The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL complained that the effect of this measure would be to impose a burden on certain of the classes in Ireland which they were altogether unable to bear. The number of rate-payers who would be registered amounted to 1 95,017, but out of this number not more than 50 or 51 would be able to pay. The Noble and Learned Lord ( Lord Brougham), whom he did not then see in his place (Lord Brougham here returned to his seat)—Oh, the Noble Lord was present—the Noble and Learned Lord, in his tirade against the Irish people, said that labour on the roads had di minished th e number of agricultural labourers. The fact was t o t;a t a porti on o f t h e Irish farmers had never been in the habit them with a yin i g their l a b ourers in money ; they paid labourers sea* patch of p o t a t o groun d. They could now pay the wit neither, and, therefore, they were compelled to resort to the roads. The Noble and Learned Lord had re marked that the Irish poor were not ashamed to beg, and, • therefore, they cared not to be employed. Ile (Lord Mount eashel) would instance the case of the Irish labourer in Eng land and in London. When in this country they em ployed in em loved in English labour, an d pa id w i th English. money, they were - as anxious as the labourers of any country to be at wor k. H e only wished th a t t h e Noble Lord resided in Ireland—(Great feigned diemay)—he would thenl laughter, much increased Lord B roug h am ' s gesture o f have b een b etter a bl e to de scribe the f ee li ngs and habits of the Irish p eo pl e . Earl FITZWILLIAAI said that it svas not for th e purpose of adding anything to w h at had fallen posite (Lord Stanley) that h e rose at feee the Nobl e L or d op at time t o a dd ress a f ew observations to the H ouse , thought that every one would agree with him that they ou g ht to be grateful t o t h e Noble Lord, and it was principally for the purpose of recording his acquiescence in the views advanced by the Noble Lord with reference to a measure not yet before their Lordships, he (Earl Fittwilliam) wis he d to say one word in exemplification eat of what he had before stated with regard to the relief com mittees, and the power vested in the persona elected to form the board of guardians. He was of opinion that there ought to be provisions introduced in the measure, limiting these powers. When he was in Ireland last, he attended the sittings of the relief committee, and the first person who came forward for relief was a man in possession of some 31 or 40 acres of land. He must do the committee the justice to say, that they almost generally acquiesced in the propriety of not admitting that person to relief; and that was after a touch ing appeal being made by the priest, who stated that the man was in as great distress as any person who could apply to them. lie (Earl Fitawilliam) had no doubt of the truth of that state ment. He was grateful to the Noble Lord for the explanation lie had given ; and his only object in rising was, that no doubt might exist as to his opinion on this subject. Lord AIONTEAGLE wished, with his Npble Friend who had last spoken, to return his thanks to the Noble Lord opposite fer the course he had pursued. It was most im portant that they, as Irish proprietors, as well as Members of the Imperial Parliament, should be ready to make any per sonal sa cr ifi ces, an d any pressure to which they m i g h t b e sub jected, if such sacrifices or the endurance of such pressure could be found beneficial to Ireland. But he powerfully wished to dra w hi • s Noble Friend's attention to one or two points in the present B i ll. Th e fi rst of t h ese did not so much arise out of the Bill it se lf, as out o f t h e const i tut i on of the bo' ird of coin- Missioners in whom these extraordinary powers were to be Vsasrted. That b oar d was cons tit ute d o f five member-namely, John Burgoy ne , M r . T w i s l e t on , t h e h ead of the ' board of works, the head of the constabulary, an d th e head o f the commissariat. Now, to any one acquainted with Ireland, or who had passed half-hourt i n " e office of either theseoffiei a al departme n t s , was something araohnting to a farce to thin k that thes'e, gentlemen, having superadded to their present the additional duties of this Bill, could undertake the business which would be imposed upon them. The late Mr. Drummond, than whom no man was more able to cope with the work of the country— if they were to tell the late Mr. Drummond that he was to undertake the whole of the administration of the poor law in Ireland, to administer to twenty-two thousand and twenty electoral divisions, he (Lord Monteagle) would be bound to say that Mr. Drumtnond would have said, " I will not under take this duty." Then, as respected the head of the constabulary for Ireland, why the House admitted last session that the con stabulary was in itself a great organised army, and could they believe that the head of this great force could attend to the duty they were casting upon him? A better selection than Sir John llureoyne could not be made, or better fitted to inspire more confidence in the Irish people with respect to the future administration of this law. But with the exception of Sir John Burgoyne and Sir Randolph Routh they had no man on whom they could depend for the well working of this Bill. He wished also to refer to a matter connected with the constitu tion of the Bill. The letter of Sir George Grey and the Act, itself admitted the fact of large contributions being expected in aid of the funds, and the privilege of such contributors no minating certain persons to the attention of the relief com mittee. It was true that by the admission of this patronage they might calculate on the assistance of some who would have otherwise remained neuter, but still it was reasonable that the persons Rho contributed somewhat liberally should have in some degree the power of distributing the funds they had created. There had been much discussion in Ireland on this point, and the general opinion was that the subscribers of twenty guineas and upwards should become c.e-ogieio members of the fund committees. 'With reference to the principle of enforcing a rate with the wants of each electoral division, he thought that such a principle was calculated to throw Ireland into a state of irretrievable contusion ; they would require to issue warrant upon warrant, and thus they would be adding difficulties to what was in the first instance far more easy. A Noble Lord had drawn a contrast between the people of Ireland and of Scotland. He described the latter as a proud and independent people, who would rather die than submit to beg. He recognised in that speech the characteristic of the country. He (Lord Monteagle) would at once admit the superiority of the Scottish people, but he would ask, what had been the effect of out-doer relief on proud and inde pendent Scotland, where the people were so independent that they would rather die than beg for food ? They had the re sults before them. The House would remember that, ac cording to the hypothesis of the Noble Lord, they were an inferior race on whom they were to try this new experiment, and, therefore, if with a country like Scotland the measure had failed, what security had they for calculating on Ireland ? He was about to read from the report of the Poor-law Com missioners, and there, in a letter from a mutual friend of his own and the Noble Lord's, he meant Sir George Sinclair, that gentlemen stated, as the result of the first year's experience of the poor-law in Caithness, that the rate exceeded 800/. per annum, and that incendiaries were busily at work, inciting the paupers not to take sixpence per day for their labour, which was a larger amount than they had ever before earned, and he concluded that, in a few years, unless some plan were adopted to prevent the spread of the evil, the greater part of the landed rental would be absorbed for the mere maintenance of the paupers in the district. Here were the Scottish peasantry so proud, so independent, so unwilling to beg from individuals, reduced to beg from the public. He (Lard Monteagle) would throw no impediment in the way of this Bill; but he hoped the measure would not be pressed until :their Lordships had well considered its provisions. Lord BROUGHAM was apprehensive lest, by giving a right to a claim of out-door relief, it would destroy the very foundation of industry in the country, because many persons who would be ashamed to beg would not be ashamed to go and claim relief at their parish. Lord CAMPBELL would not institute a comparison be tween the poor of any country ; he thought that, all over the world, people would rather be idle than work. The offer of gratuitous relief was, he believed, universally demoralising. He hoped, however, that the results of passing this measure would not be so dangerouts as the Noble Lord (Lord Monteagle) had supposed. He did not think that the applications to the poor law guardians would be so frequent as seemed to haunt the imagination of his Noble Friend. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in reply, said that he begged their Lordships to remember that when he introduced this measure, he stated, in the strongest terms, that he con ceived the measure to be objectionable—as a permanent mea sure, utterly objectionable. Principles like those contained in the Bill often crept into the Government without its being at first aware of the evil. The measure was called for only for a short time, and under the most distressing circumstances, such as he was not prepared to contemplate without making some effort to relieve. He was quite prepared to admit that many abuses had arisen under the late Poor Re lief Act, but he believed, that if that measure had not been passed by the Legislature, there would have been, by this time, at least half a million of persons who would have perished for want, and of whose existence their Lordships, the other House, and the Govern ment, would have been accountable. It could not be denied that a considerable amount of good had been effected under that measure ; those works which had been considered as useless and unproductive were only exceptional cases, and not the rule. He quite concurred in many of the observations which fell from the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley). He thought, however, that questions referring to the better secu rity of property, and the improved constitution of the boards of union guardians would require the most serious consideration of their Lordships previous to the introduction of a poor-law for Ireland. He thought also tl.at it would be a great benefit to reduce the number of small tenements, and he should be happy if, by the passing of a measure to that effect, the tenants were driven from their small and precarious hold ings to a more certain and safer mode of obtaining their exist ence. lie thought that under all the circumstances of the case the present Bill was the best that could be introduced, and he hoped that their Lordships would not refuse their sanction to the second reading of the Bill. The Bill was then read a second time. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 15. WOLVERHAMPTON RATES BILL. On the motion of Mr. BROTHERTON, this Bill was read a second time. WOLVERHAMPTON GAS BILL. • On the motioß of the same lIoN. MEMBER, this 13i11 was also read a second time. On the motion of an IIoN. MEMBER, the Sheffield .llsrlcets Bill was read a second time. BATLWAYS IN IRELAND.—ADJOURNED DE BATE. The Marquis of GRANBY (in continuation from our Third Edition) said—He would take a passage from the Spectator of last week, and he supposed that gentleman could not suspect it to be a paper likely to be unduly influenced by his Noble Friend or his party. It said that it was not only the magnificent pro mises which could be seen in the proposition of the Noble Lord, or in the elaborately lucid speech of the proposer it was the specific nature of the object at which he I.: Tied, and the explicit account of the way in which the plan was ex pected to work. In all these respects the plan stood in formidable opposition and contrast to the plan of the Ministry. It was like the substance placed op posite to the shadow. They had there laid down all the Noble Lord's data—they might be dis puted, they might be falsified, but, then, they were challenging scrutiny. Three Chancellors of the Ex chequer had got up one after the other, and not one of hem had attempted to deny any important fact or state ment of the Noble Lord's.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend had said in his speech that there would be 600,0001. or 700,0001. put into the Treasury from the increase of the Customs and Excise under the operation of the Bill ; and could they say that that was no advantage to the people of England? The measure would, therefore, put 600,0001. or 700,0001. into the Treasury.—(Hear, hear.) An endeavour had been made the other evening by the Right lion. Gentle man the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to prove that the data of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was false. He had asserted that the scheme, instead of employing 112,000 men, would only find employment for 45,000. It was not his (the lAarquii of Granby's) intention to go into these calcu lations at any length, as the Right Hon. Gentle man's statement had been most ably exposed by the Hoe. Member for Newark and the Right Hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Hudson). They had shown that instead of calculating for four millions of money, he should have taken six millions, and that he had committed a great mistake in setting down the earthwork at ouly 25 per cent. of the whole cost. Now, he would call the attention of the House to one Irish line, which was the most favourable to the present plan, in proof of the incorrectness of the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer— it was the line from Dublin to Mullingar and Athlone. The earthwork and labour of that line cost 3 . 600/. a mile. Now, it was said that a million of money would employ 45,000 persons ; if so, a 1,000/. would find employment for 45, or 3,600/. for 162 persons. Therefore, according ta the Right Hon. Gentleman's own principle, a mile of the railway in question would employ 162 persons. Now this was an unfavourable specimen of what the Bill would do ; inasmuch as, while this line cost 9,000/. a mile, and 3,6001. a mile for earth work and labour, 3,600/. per mile had been paid for the grand canal, making the actual cost but 6,4ool—(Hear.) It had been attempted to be denied that the Noble Lord had no right to assume that 500,000 persons would derive em ployment from his plan; but he could not understand that because men were employed in earthworks, that their families, who might not be employed in other ways, would be benefited. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the really destitute would not be relieved. How could they create any great work of improvement, any great reproductive work, and not employ able-bodied men ? Why, it was impossible. If 112,000 men were employed, would not they be of benefit ? The Right Hon. Gentleman had also said that the contractors would Rot take all the labourers from the immediate neigh bourhood of the railways.—(Hear, hear.) Ile be lieved that all the labourers would not be taken from the immediate:neighbourhood, but no doubt a large number would. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that all eak t t h oro e ce r ko a ,r i k lr a, o n a df d ro s went eastwards, while all the dis tress was in the west. Was that the fact ? Were T t to h h e u r u e rla n e ot railways from Waterford to Limerick, from distress omthWer western parts at p e a r r fo ts rd of to th C a o o r u k u , o f t r r o y m io Co th rk e theall conclusion to comentot,h. all railways of Ireland ? He feared also that Supposing he was was not in the west of Ireland. were o correct in his second statement, that labourers from those d istricts turti c thatt s eastward, inth ewy which hawt wasl7 ads distress ta thek take at theirua rnadl would be taking the laboure rs W e fromll , b ut ag an abundance of labour ? said this agriculture. Ile ad mitted at once that this evil, but when h e reflectewd ould be a great and serious that two millions of people were nearly dyi ng of starvation from the want of employment, he could not help thinkin g that with all their a id an d be a sufficient number le rsistance, there would He did not think that ther e was t any danger for tillin g th e l an d. hands to cultivate the land ; b ut tleseanft?r of a want of Chancellor of the Exche quer sa id , that ight Hoe. the e Irishman was incompetent, either from his physical energies, or his industrial habits, for the labour requi re d on 'Why, they found that the Irish peasant wea s up eri or r ailways. the Englishman, and he would read to the Hous e the se veral proportions of the two countries. He found thatthe average height of the Englishman was sixty-eight inches, and the Irishman seventy; the average weight of till Englishman 1511b5., of the Irishman 1551b5.; the L . average strength of the E n glishman 403, and of the Irishman 432.—(11ear, hear.) He thought, therefore, I that there existed no physical reason why the Irishman ehottld not be employed oA nilyram a Noble Lord then proceeded to read extracts, showing that, as re garded his industrious habits, the Irishman was not second to the English labourer. There might have been cases of idleness and inattention, but as a people. he could assure the House that no men had performed their duty better. The Right Hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Goulburn), had stated that he was quite inclined to bow to the opinion of his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland. The Right Hon. Gentleman hs stated that enterprise and capital had succeeded in forming railways in England, and he wished to know why the same capital and enterprise should not have been succeesful in form ing raialways in Ireland? Why, the Right Hon. Gentle man might, perhaps, know, that the climate of Italy and the south of France was favourable to the cultivation of the vine. No capital in England, without the aid of forcing houses, could ever bring the vine to per fection ; nor could they w ithout the aid of English capital and enterprise ever form railways in Ireland, or ever make them available for the relief of the people. There was one of the best lines in the country—that from Limerick to Ennis. At one end of the line there was a population of 60,000, and 12,000 at the other, and serving a population of from 100,000 to 400,000, and which was calculated to take in the accommodation of a hundred miles of river. He had received a letter this morning from a gentleman in Ireland, and it confirmed all the views that he (the Marquis of Granby) had ad vanced. The Bill of his Noble Friend would confer the greatest benefits on the people of Ireland without any cost to this country. Ile hoped, however, they would not look to the results that would follow the mere ex penditure of the mpney, but to the increased prosperity of the country, and the various other concomitant ad vantages which would arise—by which not only the present distress would be alleviated, but the foundation laid of permanent good.—(Hear, bear.) He begged to thank the House for the patience with which they had heard him. Mr. BROWNE said that the 20th clause of the Bill pro vided that one-third of the stock should be advanced by the shareholders, and that the Government should advance the re mainder on the security of the undertaking. Now this was a mercantile speculation, and he doubted if the result would be any thing but disastrous. All railroads in Ireland were at present at a discount except three ; and, under such circum stances, he did not think that the scheme could be considered very favourable. It was said that the circulation of paper money would not derange the monetary affairs of the country, but if any one looked at the history of the finances of this coun try, he would come to a different conclusion. Many applica tions for the reduction of duties in various articles had been made to the Government, but if the revenue was burdened in the way proposed, there could be no attention paid to these ap plications. He trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would anstain the national faith, but if that were to be done, all use less and unnecessary expenditure must be avoided.—(Hear.) Colonel MUIR trusted he should notlbe misunderstood on such observations he should think it right to make, or that in anything he should say he should be supposed to be averse to the extension of railway communication in Ireland. On the contrary, he was of opinion that no means could be morefai sly or effectually applied to develope the resources of that country. He considered, howeser, that the measure was exorbitant and unreasonable in itself, that its benefits to Ireland were ques tionable, and that its effects would be injurious not only to the public interests, but to the credit and commercial character of the United Kingdom. It was not his intention to refer to the va rious objections which had been:made to:the measure by speakers in the former part of the debate, but there was one to which he begged to call the attention of the House, which was the fla grant immorality of the measure. There was no one more convinced than he was of the purity, the patriotism, and the philanthropy of the Noble Lord who introduced the Bill, but that was not what they had now to consider, and he had no he sitation in calling it an extensive scheme for the encourage ment of railway gambling under the auspices of the State. He trusted that in makieg that ..atercent ke should not be consi dered guilty of misrepresentation or exaggeration. What was the definition of gambling ? Was it not Malting money on creditless adventures in the hope of realising large profits? Well, if that were a correct definition, he could not believe that any impartial man would designate the measure for the encourage ment of Irish railways in another way than an insecure and creditless adventure. They had only to look to the prostrate condition of railway stock in that country to be convinced of this. He did not know what the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn would say to this, but it was the only criter:on by which the matter could be tested, and, in his mind• the verdict was conclusive. Now the whole scope of the argument in favour of the measure was, that the credit merely of the State was lent to execute these undertakings, and that the invest ments would be repaid ; bat he very much doubted whether such expectations would be ever realised. He did not doubt but, by the prosered plan, a certain value would be given to the shares in tne various lines to which the Government advances were to ha extended, but this would be but temporary, and they world soon subside into the same state as they were before. The wi. a were convinced of this from the first, and the imprudent would be convinced by the sad experience they would have of the sad reality. It was only, therefore, through the influence of some delusion that what they now, in their lucid moments, considered valueless, should be thought valuable from Government assistance. He considered he was speaking most justly in designating the scheme as one that held out encouragement to a system of gambling.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord on the eloquent and lucid speech in which he brought forward the measure, stated that one benefit to be conferred by it would be that the Irish landlords who had shares in these undertakings would sell them in order to improve their estates with the proceeds, but the Noble Load told then in the same breath that the way to improve Ireland was to construct rail ways. He hoped the House would not give its sanction to such a great act of public profligacy. It was not a year since the House resounded with denunciations of the pernicious spirit which then pervaded the country with respect to railway gambling. That spirit was now lying dormant, and he hoped they would not give their sanction to the proposal of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, and resuscitate its slumbering energies to work the same evils. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON was rather surprised to hear the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down designate the Bill of the Noble Lord as a measure for the encouragement of immorality in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) It was much to be regretted that the Hon. Member had not been in the House for some time past, otherwise he might have stopped the pass ing of many railway Bills.—( Laughter.) His Noble Friend beside him, reminded him that with respect to some of the railways in Ireland, both Houses of Parliament suspended the standing orders, that their passing might be facilitated. In his opinion, the present was the very time that the Govern meat ought to assist Ireland. The Hon. Gentelman had in sten led America. But let him ask the Hon. Gentleman, were rot the large canals, public roads, and other great works, for de most part performed by the Government ? He believed that the objections raised to this measure might be divided into two. In she first place it was said that railways wore properly private enterprise, with which Government should not inter fere ; and in the second place, that it would derange the financial system as laid down by the Govern ment. With regard to the first objection, several cases had been cited where Government had come forward for public works, not only in England, Scotland, and Ireland, but even in the colonies. The principle laid down by the Noble Lord had been already approved of by a Select Committee of that House. That Committee had been appointed to con sider this subject. Of that Committee some of her Majesty's Government were members. In page 7 of that report, among the remedial measures proposed for the improvement of Ireland, was the promotion of public works, and the Committee expressed their desire of ceiling the attention of the House seriously to the question. A Bill was introduced for that purpose. He himself had been consulted on the Bill, and the honour was even done him of employing his name in it. He must allude to what had been said as to there being less aistress in the north of Ireland than in any other part of the country at the present time. Now it was owing to the employment that was found for able-bodied labourers on those railways that that distress did not exist. It had been also said that the Irish would not he employed on those railways ; but were there not hundreds of them employed on railways at pre sent it this country 7 With regard to the financial part of the question, he was ready to admit that the country was labouring under some financial diffieulty, which affected unquestionably the Government securities. The Bill of his Noble Friend the Member for Lynn did not propose to increase the taxation, and before Government was required to do so there would be ad vanced a sufficient sum to proceed with. Four millions had been advanced for East India railways, for the liability of the Indian Government was confirmed by the Government of this country. Was it not right railways should be promoted in Ireland as well as in India? He regretted that the Noble Lord did not feel it his duty to adopt the Bill even in a modified shape. Mr. F. FRENCH said he was anxious to say a few words in explanation of some statements which were made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to Ire land, but before he could do so, he desired to bear his testimony to the laborious research of the Noble Member for Lynn, and his admiration of the lucid and clear method in which he placed his opinions before the House. Ireland owed him a deep debt of gratitude; he had been the first statesman who had the courage to come forward and lift the veil under which the country had so long withered ; and his example should be followed by those who would in future attempt to govern the country. He felt it his duty to repel all charges which reflected on the character of Ireland, and he cared not whether those charges proceeded from those to whom he was politically opposed or otherwise, for, come they whence they might, as long as he possessed a seat in that House, he would raise his voice in defence of the country. The first circumstance to which he would allude, was the statement made by the Chan cellor of the Exchequer that the Grand Canal owed a sum of 100,000/. which had never been repaid. Now the facts of that case were these:—The sum originally lent was 47,0001. The Grand Canal, when that sum was lent, had an income of 50,0001., and they had a clear profit of 300/. a mile. They were anxious to extend the line to Ballinasloe, and had there been proper security taken, there would not have been even a sixpence of the money lost. But the Chancellor of the Ex chequer of the day took a security upon a line not made, and which was to run through a country which was wholly and entirely bog. The consequence was compromise ,twh been eh h gn a r d leeantt ctiht eylately money offer ed Cork, which pon ohf bad security. e o e o aun O r / ni . tuyfao.l annually y the Tr ahtee w do h e o xa l whole that that portion did not pay either principal or interest, and debt. The fault lay completely with the Chancellor of the a l E 2 x ooo c hequ t e o r s tw ta o te o m r e t n h t ree which hundred was thousandm ade was pounds.in is sum t to theis reportedsum of never to have been paid. This was a like case with the former ' • and he would ask the House if proper se cur i ty h a d b een ta k en in this instance? Was it likely that the city of Cork would not have paid the debt?—( Hear, hear.) There was also the sum of one hundred thousand pounds lent to build two bridges in Limerick, and the only security taken was the tolls upon the bridges.—( Hear.) Let the House consider whether a place like Limerick would be able to repay such a sum merely from the tolls arising from two bridges ? This had been done during the Chancellorship of a Noble Lord who did not then possess a seat in the I - louse—he meant Lord Monteag e.The landlords of Ireland had endeavo ure d to avail themselves of the money granted last -year by way of loans for the drainage of their estates. But they were pro • vented, for it had been decided by the Lord Chancellor that tenants for life could not avail themselves of the provisions of the Bill. —( Hear.) He could not h support the Bill of the Noble Lord for the reasons wh ich he p would accordingly give his vote in favour of the amendment. Mr. NEWDEGATE said he would support the measure of the Noble Member for Lynn, which he considered well calcu lated to meet the exigenel ss of Ireda i n • Member for Ports Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He had been surprised at the R i g ht Ports mouth, and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, stating thrt these railways never would repay the capital, on account of being merely local concerns. He rde nied that they were such, especially t Ines hose great proposed to intersect Ireland in the leading directions. It was well known to every gentleman in the House, at all conversant with works of this kind, that there could be no better investment than through lines of railway, which not only took up all the traffic of the districts through which they passed, b u t accommo dated the terminal traffic of the principal parts of the kingdom. —( Hear, hear.) A great deal had likewise been said, in the I progress of this discussion, about the principles of political economy; and of their violation by the present Bill. But Rib it not absurd to talk of political economy in the present state of Ireland, when the people were starving? The circumstances of England and Ireland were altogether different. During the last eleven years there had Bills passed for 7,200 miles of railway in England,.of which die-third, or 2,600 miles, had been completed, leaving yet te make 4,600 miles. In the same tims Bills for Ireland had passed for the con struction of 1,523 miles, of which but 123 miles had been :completed, leaving yet unconstructed 1,400 miles. By this it would appear, that while England had con structed one-third of the lines for which Acts had been ob tained, Ireland had constructed but one-twelfth, and of this one-twelfth they had been told that the great proportion of capital had been subscribed by England. If this were so, and if such a small proportion of the Irish railways had been made, the result cuuld only be attributed to the deplorable condition of Ireland during the last few years. I'o talk therefore of applying the principles of political economy under such circumstances wa: perfectly absurd.—( Hear, hear.) The people of Ireland required employment, and the plan of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn was expressly adapted for the purpose. There was a vast amount of capital in this country which at present could only be employed in Government securities, and he saw no better mode of employ ing it than by the carrying out of the works contemplated by the present Bill. He admitted that there were evident signs of a coming financial difficulty and a commercial crisis ; but that was in connexion with the present monetary system, and the altered circumstances of the country, occasioned by the abro gation of the. protective system last year. The commercial difficulty which he apprehended would, therefore, arise out of the present monetary system, and the excess of imports over exports, occasioned by the legislation of last year; but because there was a probability of such a crisis, were the peo ple of Ireland to be left to starve ? Was no provi. sion to be made for them?—( Hear, hear.) He submitted that there must, and that the Bill now under the consideration of the House was well adapted for the purpose. The Hun. Member then proceeded to show how the present monetary system operated against the extension of railway and other public works, and in support of the views he advanced, read a long extract from a letter which he said he had received from an esteemed friend, in illustration of the injurious effects of the currency measures of Sir Robert Peel. He believed that the real difficulty existed in the monetary system. Why four millions annually was only a part of the means adopted to meet the emergency of the war, when the expenditure of the country was 73,000,000/. Was there then any real impossibility to meet the exigencies of Ireland ? In 1843 the income-tax was ten per cent., while now it was only three per cent. The whole of the tax proposed now was less than nine per cent. Could they refuse to raise less than one-half ? He believed there was no difficulty, and if there was a difficulty, it arose from the monetary system. The difficulty, if one there was, arose from speculations in foreign railways, and when the crisis has come, and when the bullion migkt be assorted, the specu lation in foreign railways kept capital short. He asked whether it was wise to restrict one department whereby the exchanges were regulated, when the other department was confessedly employed to restrict the enterprise of commercial capital ? He saw the Member for the city of London smile, but he only spoke on the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and if there were no difficulty there was no necessity for restricting this accommodation.—( Hear, hear.) If these opinions were erroneous he alone was responsible for them ; but he would turn to another point. He believed that in 1835 the drains for gold on the Bank began, and with the commencement of that drain all the difficulty arose.—(Hear, hear.) He must confess that he felt considerable surprise at the spirit in which the Government had met the proposal of his Hen. Friend. his vote oteJ. 00r:CthoeNpNreEseLnL t felt occasion. considerable He felt t h difficulty at t in he r giving i vi nwa was one great benefit in the Noble Lord's proposal, and that was, that it promised immediate employment.---( Hear, hear.) But the Irish Members felt themselves in this difficulty, that while the Noble Lord at the head of the Government promised immediate employment, yet the plan of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord George Bentinck) promised something commensurate with the distress new ex sating in Ireland. He was quite ready to allow that the Go vernment and the people, both within and out of the House, had evinced the warmest sympathy for the people of Ireland, and he did hope that the Government would have taken up this plan, and even if it were modified, that they would have car ried it out. France had adopted some such plan, and it has been discovered that in their taking possession of the railways in that country they had found their account. Not only had the Government or that country realised all they expected, but had obtained a dividerd out the returns. The plan of the Noble Lord the Member for Lyan seemed to give the only chance of getting the relief that was necessary, and for that reason he would give his humble vote for the motion of the Noble Lord opposite. He deeply regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have felt it his duty to advance a position that the officials in Ireland hrd not done their duty. He deeply regretted this, because that R;ght Hon. Gentleman had stated to the House, when something more than 300,0001. had been advanced for a wide street in Dublin, that nothing of this sum had been repaid. This was entirely a mistake, and he would take the paper which had been given in a return of the moneys carried from the English to the Irish Exchequer, and the contrary. appeared t !,the Irish that thei shEx eh e remittances gne r from w the ßy ExchequertEhantglipahaperit 7,000 a , a OO2l ~ period, w that was from whilst the remittances mh fromte pie Irelanderd n f during the the union till last year was 26,000,0001., making the difference in favour of the Irish Exchequer of 19,000,0001. IVas this any proof that the advantage had been all on the side of Ireland ? Then there was a question respecting the expenditure o: 500,0001. on the part of Eng land for the improvement of Dublin, but the same principle held good in this as in the other case. By the financial returns it would appear that 3,600,0001. were advanced for the support of the Irish police. Now, if this were solely and purely an Irish loan it would be proper that Ireland should pay all of it, but it must be recollected that the constabulary of Ireland did the duty of soldiers, and if this police force did not exist the army would have to be extended by some 7,000 or 8,000 men. Still the sum was in the course of repayment. With regard to the roads and bridges there had been upwards of 600,000/. advanced t Ireland on that ac count, of which all had been repaid with the exception of 24,0001. He must now go into other matters. In the Scotch fisheries upwards of 1,400,00/. had been expended by the public exchequer since 1809, while the amount advanced to Irish fisheries since 1800 only amounted to 300,000/. Now, he found that although large sums of money had been advanced to Le land, the treaty of union had been violated by this country in its fiscal provisions and other of its provisions. He did not in tend to go into minute details upon the point, but the House might rely upon the figures he was about to quote ; indeed they could be proved by Parliamentary returns. Since the union Great Britain had been relieved from taxation to the extent ot 47,100,0(01, while Ireland had only been relieved to the ex tent of 2,670,000!. The taxes imposed on England since the union amounted to 40,120,0001., and the imposition upon Ireland relief t h f r s o l m o whereas Ireland had experienced an excess of taxa tion aMount ,oootaaa/.tienTnhveerreftohree a E m n a g England had m h p a e d se h d a n d f an excess 4 o: amount ing to 2,800,000/., a sum greater in amount than the relict given. On these grounds alone Ireland was entitled to a large measure of relief in her present emergency ; but the relic' would be useless if the House did not follow it up with 'mea sures to raise the general condidition of the people. It was their bounden duty to do so in stric' honesty to their own interests. At all events, it they did not do so, they would leave themselves open to a recurrence of the terrible calamity which threatened to drain the coffers of the country. The condition of the people must be raised, and then Ireland would be in a position to repay the debt. But, even supposing Ireland should be unable to repay the whole of the debt, if their condition were improved they would be able to repay this country in the shape of an increased revenue. Out of thirty millions paid to the revenue of the United Kingdom Ireland only contributed seven. Now this was by no means proportionate when it was remembered that the population was as eight to eighteen.— ( Hear, hear.) The truth was the people of Ireland were too poor, an d cou ld not a ff or d to pur chase excisable and customs-paying articles in proportion to England . There was, besides, a l arge quant i ty o f foreign manufactures consument in Ireland, upon w hi c h t h e d uty was pa id i n t hi s country, whic were estimated at the value of 380,000/. per annum, and some 60,0001. or 70,0001. derived from Crown lands, for which Ire land was not given credit. The people of Ireland were taxed at the same rate as the people of this country, but they were for poor to be punctual to the same extent. He might men tiont a simple hyp o th e ti ca l case, as an illustra t i on of th : position of the peopl e o f I re l an d . S uppos i n g a local rate to one penny in the pound were levied upon meat, the poor mar purchased his two p oun d s an d pa id hi s twopence, .while the rich man bought hi s eighteen pounds and pa id his one shilling and sixpence There was e x c ess of taxation here. .. s e a f rac Ir a e s lan t d h . e ricNh,ewa,nd what t t w th a The poor man, in proportion to his money. paid the s would be to endeavour to better her trade and condition, ant thus enable her to contribute her proper share to the he r evenue. icepted Mr. CORRY explained the course which tions, namely, that before he took any other step proposed. wait the result of the Government measures already e n of rail. exactly He agreed with his Noble Friend that the eonstrucatso when he was invited to join the Irish party in their hdeelaihbneurah-, t a h h e e .1 p d o t d i ° e t . thought they would be ill adapted to relieve considered that it ways in Ireland would be productive of much the g pordessebnuttdihse tress which prevailed in that country. He of the famine, Vent did not and he was glad to see that her Majesty's Gover was the duty of the State to arrest the progress nme already expended nine millions for that p P ose' which was pro assent, therefore, to the great additional outlay favourable a view o posed by this Bill. He did not take so hesitate to come forward to meet the emergeneyH,e T co h u e l y d h n a o t ; next harvest, as the scarcity of failure of the potato crop again year's crop, and the anticipated expectation. He, there were not such as to warrant such an t e h x e p State should be hus fore, thought that the resources o the calamity as to suppose that it woultheterameeindatefewrithtthhies things much worse than the presentht find, at the expiration o' expend all this money, they to! withdrawal of the expenditure then the four years, that the dependent on it in as helpless would leave the people who were banded, and kept to await the possible Beoenstidineus,ateivoennoiffatshteaytedioe hat it would beget a feeling of dependence. thought, moreover, t country, and that a great pottiou of the else, contributed to depress tilt which, more than anything energies of the Irish people. l g The scheme was a dazzling - r c g o e ns a t i o n i e k r e e a l ts of the speculator instead o it ould be a just measure tt a condition as that whichthin it was intended to relieve. p l r i e t t d' of the li hands of the those for whose benefit o v e r n consider m e nt t h i e nte l r l f o e u rHe s one interference e f Ifs should, there second reading of the Bill. fore, vote against the it was s i u n r w t e en o d u e Sir WILLIAM CLAY opposed the Bill. He was not p mt h o oe s n a p l e , eye b wi ts , lo t eu h in e df d id gtoh ia n companiesat disposed to take so did rate to ofradway 3, y • st , th e principles of political economy did its duty in advising such expenditure . into o la t lse did not set why interest was so much Governmen yt t w . s railwayshigher. h was ga dtomeasure , snre, he could not assent it t l h e o r u c g e h nt h . e w w h as en o believed that snch a doctrine, for hemany of the measures formerly adopted, and now advocated, partook of the same that thono nature. He thought, however, o h the House shoulo not legislate for speculators, they should take care that a goon system of railways should be constructed to develope the re sources of the country. h a a o s lai l l s e t . d that n oGt the Th e y ought, however, to follow, not pre. cede, the development of commerce, as they did in this cou n t r y, It was also said that railways would not afford immediate retie f to the distressed labourers; but the point of fact was, that the with; Commons us earthworks to be executed would afford a very considerable amount of labour ; and he was informed that the Dublin ant. Cashel Railway had been willing to have made the whole ot their earth- works, from one end of the lisle to the other, but the presentments were refused, and the money was expender: upon public works, when it might have been more profitable expended.—(Hear, hear .) It was to the future which he moat looked to. They should not alone examine the present pressing calamity, foe it was necessary that they should endeavour to restore a sound social system. which would not be until there was a perfect security for the investment of capital , either in commerce, manufacture, or agriculture. A system of railways would be most beneficial to Ireland, as it would be a means of dove loping the application of capital. He therefore consideret that the question of a system of railway extension was wet worthy of the anxious consideration of the House ; and he hoped that the Government would devise some which plan would involve the principle of the Noble Lord. Mr. SHAW said that he did not mean to enter into the particular merits of the measure before the House. His feel.. ings would lead him one way, but his judgment and reason left him another. Considering the statement which he heardas pt:oesbe be advanced rmarket e_ t to the result of the measure upon the present Government, he would not be a party, by any vote, to overturn that Go vernment, or lead to the formation of a new one.—( Hear. ) He was in favour of a combined system of railways in Ireland, under the management of the State. This might expose him to some unpopularity in Ireland, but he considered it was an advisable suggestion, and he hoped to see the Government before long promoting works of this kind. He regretted that he could not vote for the second reading of this Bill, because he believed it would impede the Government in those measures which they had brought forward so beneficiently for the pnrpose of immediately relieving the distresses of Ireland. great and deep calamity, the h e w e sincerely ifare thanked e f the Ireland at Noble per i Lord d f n o r she he int e rest nas ain he et felt i n d by a natural leaders. He had spoken out like a country gentleman of England ; but, however he might admire the courage of the Noble Lord to assume the Government if it were offered to him, he could not, consistently with hie duty, vote for the second reading of the Bill. Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the argument of the lion. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. J. O'Connell) was this Let there be the largest possible expenditure of money—spend without measure, spend without stint—give ns all the money you possibly can." Other Irish Members adopted a similar argument. Now he sincerely pitied them, and meant no dis• respect to them by saying so. Words could not express, minds could not conceive, the scenes they had witnessed in Ireland— famine, death, worse than death, the agony of impending death from famine, from the actual want of food. He did nut wonder, therefore, that they were glad to adopt any measure which was at all likely to alleviate the distresses of their coun trymen—even the measure of the Noble Lord ; but it was the duty of English Members to exercise their calm judgment on the question. He believed that the people of England were ready, to make any sacrifice to save the people of Ireland from starvation, and with that view a mea sure had been already passed for affording immediate relief to the destitute poor of that country. When myriads are suffer ing from hunger it was impossible to scan too narrowly a mea sure which was required in actual operation without delay ; yet that measure alone would involve the expenditure of mil lions of money, which the people of this country would be compelled to pay. But the adoption of measures were neces sary for the purpose of placing the burdens of Irish distress on the shoulders of those who ought to bear it. Now, he objected to the scheme of the Noble Lord because it would not accom plish either of those two objects. He objected to it, likewise, because, looking at it in its most favourable light, it would not accomplish its object for which he said he brought it forward— namely, the relief of the'destitcze poor. No more than one third would be employed in the payment of wages—that labour must be chiefly performed by skilled and able-bodied men, so that a considerable number would be imported from this country. Then railways would not be made through the destitute and ill-popu lated parts of the country, but through the north and the west ; consequently labour would be created in those places where there was less need of it; and even there the destitute poor would suffer, because the labonr could only be performed by the vigorous part of the people, and they alone would obtain employment. Thus coalition and riots would ensue. It would only benefit those in the immediate neighbourhood of the rail ways, and that benefit would be inconsiderable compared with the amount which would be spent. The landlords through whose property the line would pass would be the first gainers; secondly, the shareholders, whose shares would be come as profitable as the best English securities; and, lastly, the mortgagees, who would take a considerable portion of the money. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had, he thought, characterised the Bill as a " Bill for the benefit of destitute shareholders." Most English railways were constructed with capital raised on their intrinsic merits; but if Government were in a position to furnish money to shareholders to construct lines which their intrinsic merits could not raise, he saw no reason why the money should not be devoted to the construction of English instead of Irish railways. Every farthing spent in making bad railways in Ireland would be so much deducted from the making of good railways in England. He begged the Noble Lord and his party to con sider that, however much they were bound to afford relief to Ireland, they were bound to do justice to their constituents, and not to vote for the spending of money on such an useless project as the one before the House. The Government had ever found great want of enterprise and energy amongst those who were in a position to carry out works likely to be beneficial to the country ; there was a want of self-reliance among the people.—( Hear, hear.) It was strange that they had read of an abundant harvest —of fields covered with grain —yet when but a portion of that crop was deficient they were plunged at once into all the evils of a famine, without any means of support. A stronger poor-law, which would compel the owners of the soil of that country to relieve their own poor, was required ; and until such a measure was passed he considered that little good would accrue to Ireland. Mr. DISRAELI said, that in occupying the attention of the House he hoped to address himself to the immediate subject under consideration, and should not attempt, like some other Hon. Members, to diverge to other topics— no doubt of paramount importance, but, whether right ' or wrong, just or unjust, were not the question they had now to consider.—( Rear, hear.) The impression which had been made en the House by the address of the lion. Mem her the Recorder for Dublin, rendered it necessary that he (Mr. Disraeli) should advert to the feeling which he had ex pressed, and the position in which they, on that side of the House, were placed. The Right lion. Gentleman had ex pressed himself, that while he gave the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn great credit for the sentiments he had expressed, and the measure he had introduced, still he felt it his duty to vote contrary to it.—(Hear, hear.) He told them that because the Government depended on this vote he must record his suffrage contrary to the proposition of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn.—( Hear, hear.) This was the position of the Right Hon. Member, and this led them to the consideration of the circumstances of the question now before them. He could easily understand why a member from a party con nexion might not only be induced to be silent on a particular question or vote against a particular measure that they might think abstractedly beneficial to the country, if by so doing he expected that party to ride into power. He could understand a Member so situated supporting his friends even when the policy might be considered antagonistic to the welfare of the country. That, however, was not the position of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin. He still was, and he (Mr. Disraeli) hoped he would remain with the political p.:xty he orieinally began with, though fighting against considerable odds. He would now address himself to the consideration of the present position which the party with whom he acted occupied. This measure had sug gested itself to his Noble Erie ' the Member for Lynn some considerable time ago. It ha(' seen long matured, and well digested, and so constituted, as .1 be peculiarly adapted to the circumstances of Ireland, and for the elevation of the condition of the people of that country. In the Queen's Speech the pro position for immediate relief for the people of Ireland was mooted ; and on the first day of the session his Noble Friend pressed on the Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty's Government this measure; but as the Government, it was stated, had prepared measures for the emergency, though his Noble Friend had matured for many months this scheme of railways ;or Ireland, he did not further press it then. What had since then been the conduct of the Noble Lord ? It would have been easy for his Noble Friend, and those with whom he acted, more than once to have opposed the measures of the Govern ment. But considering the extraordinary circumstances under which her Majesty's Ministers came into power, and the exist ing emergency of the country, they thought it would be un worthy of them in the circumstances of the Government to oppose it in any petty spirit.—(Hear, hear.) It would h ave did was to consider whether th e gentle beenm easy for them to have opposed the Labour Act, but in steadeten ofe with this,iye ability, and zeal in the circumst ances un d er which they were placed. They (the protectionists) believed that they had done so , t h at the y had acted with ability, energy, and zeal, and that in their candid opinion no body of men, under the circumstances , could have acted bett er i n tey these respects. — ( Hear , hear.) But the Noble Lord on th e occasion he (Mr. Disraeli) had referred to, on th e o p en i ng of a ce ie g l te h energy, places of her Majesty's Gove rnment, h ad l d the session, said he was ready to support the measure of her Majesty's Government ; but that if he found them defective in their details, if they did noi; sufficiently meet the case, he would be prepared to br:ng forward another measure, not in an an • tagonistic, but in an ancillary spirit.—( Hear, hear.) These were not the words of lip rhe:oric, but every one knew, whether from public explanations or from private conversation, that this was the case. But now they were told that the exist ence of the Government depended on the rejection of the present measure ; to that he (Mr. Disraeli) would answer, why did not the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, when his Noble Friend made the exposition of his plan to the House, why did he not then state this to be the case ? That was the time for him to say that he could not accept the measure, and that, if it was carried, he would divest himself of the responsibility of carrying it out, and threw it on those who supported it and the Noble Lord who brought it in. That would have been the proper course to take. But when he allowed the Bill to be laid on the table of the House, and when he had given his leave to introduce it, then his Noble Friend, as a man of honour, was bound to carry it through to its last stage, and to say that whatever might be the result no conclusion could be drawn reflecting on his conduct or character in what he had done.—( Hear, hear.) This was the real view of the case. Tne Noble Lord the Member for Lynn having made an exposition of his plan, and the Noble Lord at the head of the Government having given his quasi • sanction to its introduction, they were not to be told that the Ministry was in danger as an inducement to abandon the scheme. If an adverse vote against the Government threat ened its existence, it was what mten had been done before without any serious result. He saw Hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House, who, when they entered Parliament, were told that the Government would not last, as they were going out on the Irish question. (Hear, hear.) They did not, however, go out then. Two years after the leader of the most powerful opposition that had ever ex isted in this country declared that Ireland was his greatest difficulty. That party succeeded to power, and tod them and the country that they were the only party that could govern Ireland. But the question now before the House was not the government of Ireland, the question of the last ten years, but it was, how they were to feed the Irish people.—( Hear.) And this was the best time to discuss this question, when no passions or prejudices were raised up with its consideration. If the ques tion was whether Popery should be increased or diminished, whether municipal powers should be extended or abolished, it might admit of some hesitation and discussion ; but when they found a country like ItAand, with a population the densest in Europe, as it regarded arable land denser than China, and while the capital of that country was only twenty shillings or thirty shillings a head—while that of sterile Scot land was sixteen pounds a head, the present measure became one of paramount importance. (Hear, hear.) That was the result that had been drawn by the people of England during the last four or five years. lie believed that it was the conviction now of the great body of the people of this country, without reference to creed, class, or party, that no hallucination has been greater than the supposition that this was a political panacea which could cure the griefs of Ire land. The Noble Lord, in his general address on the subject of Ireland some time ago, stated that the state of Ireland was a famine of the 13th century with the population of the 19th. No doubt that was a striking and picturesque description, but he must say that it was a fallacious one. In the famines of the middle ages, and the feudal famines , they understood their causes and their consequences, but he believed that the famine in Ireland might find a parallel in countries and times less re mote, and he was sorry to say in the dominions of her Majesty. There was another portion of her Majesty's dominions 'where the population was almost as dense, where poverty was almost as intense, and where the people were dependent upon the lowest sources of human subsistence. It was India that he al luded to, and when the rice failed, as when the potato failed in Ireland, they found the state of affairs very similar. It was a visitation of Providence, for these calamities always came from the Most Divine. That truth none could dispute ; but would it do for that House to forget to use the sorry phrase of a visitation of Providence to conceal its own remissness in that respect, because what had occurred had been foretold by great statesmen, and by men of most experience in Ireland. Lord i Lord Wellesley told them, twenty-five years age, that gradual degeneration of the seed of the potato would ould ulti mately destroy Ireland unless they arrested its course._ They would find, in the dispatches and public papers of in Ireland, then, was, in fact, the inevitable M r. Drum mond, the same opinion, and anythinof goccurringof by those who knew Ireland beasdt, and Government measures to an opinion upon it. They h and it was not for him t o criti c ise those Government alleviate this state of affairs affairs, he was their supporter , and , as he hoped he should whenever ; he did support, the earnest sup porterbe! He would, however, venture to re of these measures. of the Noble Member for Lynn was d capable of forming result were e nts long foreseen mark, that the measure in accordance with the general intention of the Government system. The measure of the Government would alleviate, or attempt to alleviate, the immediate distress. The Noble Lord indicated means by which future renovation might be secured. The measures of the Noble Lord were such as would se cure that employment desirable in early states of that future renovation. All that was brought forward was projected as a means of giving immediate employment to the people of Ireland, but which at the same time was to a twofold effect— to give a new character to the country, and so as to change the very complexion of that long-deserted and unhappy land by results similar to those which had recently occurred—from the evils under which she was then suffering. He would not dilate for a mome n t on t h e character of the proposition which the Noble Lord adverted to, and which proposed to i tself two objects, and principally b ecause i t was the most regarded, although scarcely the most important consideratio r , he confined himself to its power of empl oy i ng t h e people of Ireland. His Noble Friend bad made a statement from data which he gave without reserve to the House, and by which he calculated that 110,000 able-bodied labourers would be occupied under his scheme, and who would represent a population ex ceeding 500,000 persons. Although it was not em ployment which could cure the evils of Ireland, he was sure that there was no gentleman present but would acknowledge that if they could secure such employment it must be the means of alleviating the present pressure upon the resources of this country. The proposition of his Noble Friend had been met—he would not say by an able—but by an ex tremely zealous opposition. He did not mean to say that in an offensive sense, for he was quite sure that Hon. Gentlemen who made the opposition had made the best of their means in doing so. The objection stated by the Hon. Member of the Government who first rose on this subject was a critical objection, founded upon the back of this Bill. He found that the Bill was introduced, not by the lion. Member for Stam ford, but it was also introduced by the Hen. Member for Sunderland, greatly interested in railways, and also by the Mil. Member for Westmoreland, who was known to be one of the greatest manufacturers of iron in England. It was the first objection raised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer against the present proposal. He was perfectly willing to admit that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did net fora moment impute, even by reference, any corrupt motive to his Noble Friend. There were few gentlemen present who would dispute his proposi tion. They all knew the fascination of an engrossing pursuit it did give a tone to the judgment, and it was not impossible that men so interested would view the general affairs of the world through the coloured prism, their usual acts. He was not disposed to deny that his Hon. Friends the Members for Sun derland and Westmoreland might have viewed the circumstances placed under their consideration with feelings resulting from one engrossing idea. Still he must reply that it was not merely creators of railways and manufacturers of iron, who had fol lowed the principle, for he found that three Chancellors of the Exchequer rase each after the other, so that he was disposed to view their financial opposition as arising from the same feeling. The Hon. Member for Portsmouth who came for ward on this occasion in a gallant spirit, which all the sympa thetic reminiscences of official life could not step, and said that the Member for Newark had made a decla matory speech, but no reply to the unanswerable statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If no answer had been given, they had adduced no proof in the first instance. There had been many alterations made by the Chancellor c f the Exchequer with regard to railways. He was surprised that it should be so, but he was more sur prised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have an other Chancellor of the Exchequer ready to 'be his bail and guarantee, and to tell the House that his speech was unan swerable. He would then detail the expenditure to the House, and he would give an analysis of the expenses of the several railways, and this he thought would decide the question ; and he thought still further, that as to the accuracy of this question, it was a bona fide report to those who were interested in railways, and he was sure that the Hoase would believe this. There was given in it an analysis of the description of expenditure incurred upon a dear line in England, and also upon a cheap one ; likewise upon all the Belgian railways, and upon the Paris and Rouen—one of the most complete lines in France. The total expenditure per mile on the London and Birmingham Railway was 49,6501. Of this, there were expended oa law, Parliamentary, engineering, and direction, 2,1501., and on land and compensation 6,300/., giving an average of 17 per cent. out of the 49,6501. Of items indi rectly connected with skilled labour, there was on the carry ing department 3,000/., and for the permanent way 5,6501,, giving 26 per cent.; and on the items connected immediately with labour, such as earthworks, and stations, and the like, out of the 49,655 i. that was expended, 32,6304 or 62 per rent.—(Cheers.) That was a dear railway, and he would now take a cheap English one. The total ex penditure of the Grand Junction was 21,2004 per mile, and the items unconnected with labour were 17 per cent.; the items directly connected with skilled labour were 26 per cent.; while those connected with common labour were 50 per cent.—(Hear, hear.) On the Belgian railways the total expenditure per mile was 16,130 , ., and the items connected with common labour per mile were 6 920/., or 43 per cent.—( Hear, hear.) On the Paris and Rouen Railway the expenditure per mile was '.22,500/., and out of that there was paid for common labour 12,570/., or 56 per cent., giving an average on the whole of these railways in England, in Belgium, and in France of 57 per cent. expended on common labour.--( Cheers.) He would now call the attention of the House to the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who estimated that the ex penditure on labour oh railways was only 25 per cent. Now, if they took the Irish railroads at 16,0001. per mile, and allowed 57 per cent. as the average expended on labour, or 9,1201. per mile, which, over a period of four years, was 2,2801. annually, and if they took the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement, that for every 1,0001. per mile there were 45 men employed, it was clear that, according to the Right Hon. Gentleman's data, there would he employed for every 1,000/. expended per mile 102 persons for f cur- years —( Hear, hear)—that would make, over 1,500 miles of railway, 153,000 labourers, instead of 110,000, as his Noble Friend had calculated; and, supposing five persons dependent on each of tqese labourers, that would make, according to the principle of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, 765,000 people deriving their means of subsistence from these works.—( Cheers.) Ile begged to say that when his Noble Friend estimated the employ ment of the people at the rate of 60 per mile, he under-esti mated his case, for he had documents in his possession which showed that the number was much larger. His Hon. Friend the Member for Newark had referred to page 35 of the blue book containing the proceedings of the Board of Works, and he also would refer to that volume, in which they would find, from the memorial of the Lord Mayor of Dublin, that 40.00 persons were, in October, 1846, employed on railroads in Ire land ; but in October, lel6, there were only 300 miles of railroad under the operation of being formed. Now, taking the number stated in that memorial to be em ployed on 300 miles, the same calculation, applied to 1,500 miles, would give employment to 200,0C9 persons.—( Hear. ) He concluded, however, that the estimate taken from the data of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the data taken lean the lines of England, Belgium, and France, were extremely within the limits, an d, s i nce h e h a d come the house he had found, in the Irish _Railway Gazette and annmere:al Ad vertiser, a statement to the effect that, on the works on the main line of the Great Southern and Western Railway ; 38 miles from Dublin, there were 8,600 men constantly em ployed on 47 miles, giving 183 men per mile.—( Hear.) So much for the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that only one-fourth of the capital of a railway was invested in labour.—( Hear, hear.) Why, according to the estimates founded en the expenditure of the English, Belgian, and French lines, they could nut have less than 3 000,000 e expended on skilled labour in Ireland under the proposal of his Noble Friend.—(Cheers.) And, suppose that the navigator was a man who bad a wife and who had a family, not only would they employ 102 persons per mile for 1,500 miles, but he would show that the estimate they had taken of five persons maintained by each man's labour was as much underrated as the general statement of the Noble Lord. He thought the House must wish that this question should be fairly put before them; and he would read for their information a document full of knowledge of the subject written in a straightforward spirit, and in the most perfect, simplicity, and altogether so conclusive that he was sure they would not regret the time occupied in reading it. It was a letter dated February 8, 1847, from one who had much ac quaintance with the subject of railways, and great experience of Ireland, and who had no knowledge of the Noble Lord to whom the letter was addressed. He said— " It is scarcely possible to overrate the benefits which would result to Ireland from the passing of the Bill now brought into Parliament by your Lordship. Allow me to trespass shortly on your Lordship's time while I endeavour to refute two of the principal objections which appear to be raised against the measure, which I think the experience I have had in that country will enable me to do. The first is, that if railways in Ireland were at once undertaken upon a large scale, English ' navvies' would be brought in by con tractors, and by superseding the labour of the coun t ry , greatly decrease the relief thereby sought to be given to the existing distress. For the greater part of the last five years I have been living near Londonderry, executing very large works, which are peculiarly adapted to the labourers of that country, when once they are taught, and which a very few weeks serve to accomplish, namely, the making of very large embankments to reclaim land from the sea, and on the Lon donderry and Coleraine Railway. On commencing there I found the difficulties almost insuperable, from the total unac quaintance of the people with the nature of such works; I for tunately persevered, and with beneficial results to them and to myself. I brought over a few experienced gangers, who, in a few weeks, instructed the more intelligent, who, in their turn, taught ethers; and the men now employed are almost exclu sively Irish, and are quite capable of executing any works of the sort. I have now about 1,000 men employed, and if the company would furnish the means, I could at once greatly increase the number, and in a month or six weeks from this time I could take on between 3,000 and 4,000 more, and to enable me to do this, I should not require additional English labourers of any description. There are some works in which it is the interest of contractors to employ high-priced labour ; these works, from the nature of the country, are al most unknown on the Irish railways. I have, on the Coleraine line, I believe, almost the only tunnel in Ireland, which is a very difficult one, being nearly 1,000 yards in length, though the solid basalt rock. To commence it, I brought over some experienced men, and added the necessary number of local labourers, who very soon became sufficiently expert to con tinue the works without such supervision and assistance. All the Englishmen but three have returned to England,— the works, with this exception, are carried en exclusively by Irishmen, entirely to my satisfaction and to that of the resi dent engineer of the company. Many of those men are now earning three shillings per day, and several men have left me at different times to undertake sub-contracts in other places, for which shey have become capable, after two or three months' instruction, although previously totally unac customed to the work. The works, generally, on this line are of a difficult description. On the Londonderry and En niskillen, fifteen miles of which are completed, there are still 45 miles to make, the works being of the ordinary description, and upon which some thousands of Irish labourers could be immediarely and beneficially employed. The number of Eng lishmen now employed by me does not exceed two and a half per cent. on the whole, and these are principally engine; drivers and mechanics. Another objection raised is, that the counties through which the railways pass are not the mest dis tressed, and therefore the works on them wouldt.l believe not relieve those parts of the country which require it that the comparatively small amount of distr e ss, which lately existed in the neighbourhood of Lo n d on d erry, a t improved wages, os till very has arisen ' chiefly, if not solely, from the employ ment , on the works of the two railway s connected the w a i , t e h e a g t h e a hat city. fo ! should add, that when I first wen t there labour was Is. per day, b ut that now, and for a long time past, it is I s. 6 d. p r , a nd in many instances higher. I have always found y that when I required an in crease of labourers the fact soon became kno wn , ime they came out of Con and in a very s hort t naught and the western coa st . If all the able-bodied men remain in those parts, the farmers will of course employ them first, and thousands who can find no employment must be fed by charity, or starve ; whereas, if the able-bodied men came down to the railway works—which, from my own ex perience, I am convinced they would, if they were certain of employment at good wages--they would afterwards return with their earnings, and, in the meantime, the farmers would absorb the whole or greater part of the remaining local labour, and the entire community would b e benefited, - Previously to going to Ireland, I had, during several years, very large con tracts, both on the London and Birmingham and the Bristol and Exeter Railways, exceeding in value 500,000/ , and having frequently employed above 3,000 men at one time. 1 mention this fact to satisfy your Lordship that I am not igno rant of the comparative difference between works of this sort ire Engitild 1111 4 Ireland. In then obseryttiene which I thus venture respectfully to submit to your Lordship I feel satisfied that Mr. Dargan, who has the largest contracts in Ireland, and the other large contractors in that country, would fully concur." English labourers in Ireland were only engaged on the average of 24 per cent. This statement was fully borne out by Mr. Montgomery Martin, than whom no o e knew better the state of Ireland. The miter of this letter, Mr. Samuel Hemmirg, was one of the greatest contractors in that country, and he (Mr. Disraeli) hoped that the House would allow him to put the statement before them. It was a sufficient answer to the so-called facts and shad wry objections heard from the first, :gain from the second, ama again from the last Chancellor of the Exchequer. 211 r. Hemming also found that as more labourers were wanted, the peasantry came even from Connaught, en the west coast, in search of work. The farmer was benefited in an equal degree with the other classes of society; in fact, it was the entire community that this Bill proposed to henefit.—( Hear, hear.) If they therefore on that side of the House could prove that the measure would benefit the community, he trusted the House would support it ; or if the night Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Hon. Member who supported him could prove that the Bill was adverse to the interests of the country, he (Mr. Dis ash) was prepared to vote against it.—( Hear, hear.) Ile thought the House would agree with him that this document from Mr. Hemming was well worthy of it; attention. He showed that the labour employed was Irish labour ; he showed that the average was only as 2.1 per cent, of foreign labour ; ha told them that they might em ploy thousands more on these public works ; he told them that in two or three weels i s these men were ce.pable of making tunnels, and that when he. wanted more labour they came from a dis tance to obtain it—from Connaught, on the western side of the island. But he (Mr. Disraeli) was told that these navi gators were " . gay L ot h a rios"—that they h a d c o me f rom Eng land, wher e they had left their wives at home. He had shown, however, that they were Irishmen, and that they had their wives along with them. lle would read to the House another document he had received that night. It was from a gentleman well known to many of the Members around him—he meant Sir Ilarrey Bruce. That gentleman, re marking on the Chancellor of the Exchequer —it was a continuation of the criticism on his unanswerable speech— (Loud laughter)—said that he sat on the Coleraine and Londonderry Relief Committee, and he found that the works going on in that district had greatly relieved the pressure upon them. He stated th a t many of the labourers upon the railways had wives, with families of from eight to twelve children—(Laughter)—and it was considered a very small family which did not number more than from three to four. The labour was cheap, and the land, in many cases, could be had for 6001. a mile. There was new data for the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he wished to ascertain the proportion paid for labour to that for land. —(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman said that none but unskilled labourers were employed on railways,but the fact had been proved to be otherwise. It was said also that moneys had already been advanced to widen the streets of a certain corrupt corporation ; why what was it to them if that money had never been returned? He had no doubt that the Govern ment of that day had had the support of two Membera from that very corporation. Let the Government meet them with facts and correct data, aed let those decide on the merits. Let them not talk to him about the broad streets of Cork, while they were considering the broad guage of Ireland. It had been said that the measure of his Noble Friend would ,pnly make the half of Ireland rich.—(Hear, hear.) Why, did any Government who were ever in officer or did those who were now in office ever propose a measure cal culated to make one-half of Ireland rich ? If the Noble Lord had succeeded in doing so much, he thought that he had really done enough for one session.—( Cheers.) Multifarious as had been the objections offered to the measure, it would be found that they all ranged themselves nnder three great heads, and it was a curious fact. that each of those great heads were repre sented by three Chancellors of the Exchequer. The first, the real Chancellor of the Exchequer, said, that under the opera tion of this Bill there would be no commensurate employment of labour. That objection he had disposed of. Another objec tion was represented by a second Chancellor, who represented an objection grounded on the monetary system. The third Chancellor represented the great principle of non-interference with private enterprise. The first of those objections had been disposed of ; he would now come to the second objection—the monetary crisis, and the danger to the State. He would deal with that objection as with the other, not by abstract reasoning, but by an appeal to facts, which he would lay before the Ilottse, and leave the House to form its own judgment upon the subject. The re presentative of that objection referred the House to the situa tion of France and Belgium, and warned the House against the danger of raising money by loan for railroad enterprise. Now let the House refer to Belgium. In the year lelo the Government of Belgium determined to create railways by vir tue of a grant from the State, and the State granted, in round numbers, 6,000,000'., of which sum 2,700,0001. was instantly raised by loan by the State, although its revenue did not at that time exceed the sum of 3,Z 10,000/. This state, with a revenue of 3,300,0001. determined to e: ease railways by a grant of pub lic money to the extent of 6,000,1,001., and at once com menced by a loan of 2,700,01 n., which sum was raised at the rate of 5 per cent. interest, and that loan cost the country 51. 6s. Bd. as interest on each 100/. Two years after, in the year 1842, Belgium raised a second loan oi . 1,0,10,0 as part of the original grant of 6,00,00/. ; and in pursuance of the first. loan of 2,700e , C0/., and at what rate of interest would the House suppose that this second loan was contracted at the rate of 4'. 17s. 4d. per cent. So that after two years, notwithstand ing the alleged depreciation of the Government securities they actually rose in value 111 per. cent.. And these sums were received when the whole annual revenue of the country was 3.300,0001. Look then next at France. In the year 1842 France had a floating debt of 17,50,000/., in consequence of the fortifications of Paris, and it was under these circumstances that the Minister proposed to the Chambers a grant of 12,000,0001. sterling for the construction of railways in France, so that there was a debt of 19,000,0001 to be addo to the floating debt of 17,500,00 e/. ; of this sum 18,000,00/. was raised by loan, and the balance of 1,0,1-0,000/. was raised by a royal bond, similar to the Exchequer-bills of this country. In the year 1841 the proceeds of indirect taxation in France was something like 23,8:;0,0,;0/., but what was the proceeds of indirect taxation in the year 1846? Why, it amounted to 32,000,000/. or 33,600,W/. sterling, leaving a balance in favour t.f the two years of 6,800,000'. Such, then, was the consequence of the support which was given to industry by the construction of these railways under circumstances in finitely more difficult than any the House had now to deal with.—( Cheers. ) Framer. ac ually created a floating debt of nearly 40,000,0001., which ha• been paid over and over again. France had derived upwards of 4,5t' 1,000/. from the traffic of her goods and merchandise urn these lines of railway, but what, had she not gained in her revenue by indirect taxation caused by an increased consumption of goods, and the stimulus which was given to industry?—(Cheer.. ) This, then, was that Belgium and France brought forward by the lion. Mem her for Portsmouth (Mr. F. Baring) in order to school his Noble Friene ( Lord G. Beet hick). When he (Mr. Baring) was Chancellor of the Exchequer, could he refer to a reve•itie like that ? It was enough to make his mouth water to hear it, These Chancellors of the Exchequer seemed to think that the mea sure was to be dispreed of by the mere recklessness of an official eve: detii.—( Cheers. ) But then it had been said that the rates of fares were eoesidi rably lower on these French and Belgian lines than they would be in Ireland. He held in his hand the French tariff of railwaes, from which it appeared that the first-class trains of France were as 166 to 144 on the Ulster Railway ; the second:class as 125 to 100 on the Dublin and Drogheda; the third-class as 92 and a fraction to 56 on the Ulster Railway. Why the fares in France were actually higher than they were in Ireland. In France every railway was leased to a company by the Government for forty years; Government could have no supervision over it until the expira. tion of that period. In the Bill just brought in by the officer of her Majesty's Government it was proposed to exercise super vision at the end of every ten yiears, arid if the fares got too high upon the Irish railways, the Government would have the power to reduce them. Then it had been said by the Chan cellor of the Exchequer that only 25 men would be employed upon each mile of railway, and this was one of the many as sertions made in the Right Hun. Member's unanswerable speech.. There was a gentlemae going about the City —a most respect able man—a friend of the Chancel'or of the Exchequer— representing that he was the anonymous correspondent whom the Chancellor of the Exchequer quoted the other night, and that the statement of that Right Hon. Gentleman had given him the greatest distress, because when he told the Right Hon. Gentleman that there were only twenty-five men employed upon a railway per mile, he meant permanently employed.— (Hear and Laughter.) The truth was, this anonymous cor respondent represented that the Noble Lord who introduced the measure had under-rated the number of men employed in the construction of a railway. Another and another still succeeder', and still he had a third Chancellor of the Exchequer to deal with. He had dealt with the Chancellor of the Exchequer who had called upon them not to believe this capital in labour; he had dealt with the Chancellor of the Exchequer who warned them, with France and Belgium before their eyes, that borrowing this money would create a financial crisis; and he came now to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, under no consideration, would consent to interfere with private enterprise. Now, what was private enterprise ? He thought it highly important that they should come to some understanding upon that question. It was a remarkable circumstance that every night they saw statesmen who were preseet, or had been late advisers of the Crown, rise end denounce all interference with private enterprise, and yet every night they found them sup porting measures adverse to that principle. Therefore f they could arrive a*,; a clear and distinct understanding of the definition o 7 the meaning of the term private enternrise, it might tend to throw a great light upon that subject. What was meant by private enterprise? In this country it was pretty well understood. It meant the operations and ex ertions of private individuals to bring about certain commer• cial undertakings. Suppose any man wished to constructa railway in this country, all he had to do was to calculate the cost. Now he knew the cost of Parliamentary expenses, the cost of land, and the rate of labour, and he therefore had some data upon which to calculate the estimate, while he had the same facilities of calculating profits; come mercial enterprise in that sense could be carried out in this country, but how different was it in Ireland. There the land was encumbered almost beyond comprehension, and its pur chase might lead to public rancour and private animosity. Th e capitalist had to employ labour at doubtful rates—labourersw could not go to church or chapel without subjectingll th e the em ployer to personal animosity. He knew very moment he had commenced his notices were served upon o p e rations and tbtehweetshhropetraintefenriiopnmal agents employed upon the works m igh t tb t e he ca se us w e e or re t rineiple had not b n e o h l, in c d om he m d e g r e c s i . al Tphlciaplital.iwitettlanttEs.cm:wligeihpl made its way in Ireland, t bu w t as not the place nor the time to. such a state of thing ascendancy ,inquire. l t but in ig b h e t a l 4 se a t t h h fau ts w P i t t ut m es i t g a l t i s t b t s h u e p r r e em ra e s y' no or doubtPa Pap principle upon which private enterprise was bilSed root in Ireland, anti the question then arose principles ought n o t t o b e b rought into commercial principle Hear, hear.) T hat pr guide the commercial.—( w as the rattenale of the matter, an d t h e way in which he was pr e pared to meet the question private e n t erpr i se i n Ireland, w o uld because operationl'd whether nu t politicalt k n g o f non-interference of private e nterpr i se. Bet he d efy an them he wanted anyt hi ng to prove this, he thereth e wasto interfere none ; could fin u d tehr t e. ha e t rux p ihs r at o itn o g f tiirngaitlhtwealspeech of a l a t e Ch ance ll or of the d e m h a a nd beentold under t akenthe m that I G re e l n a t n l m Ex os e t he ol by English capitalists. Well, that only proved to them that they were profitable undertekiiigs, while it proved that the reason why they were stopped at present was that there were political principles connected with thorn over which these capitalists could have no control. If Ireland were to be redeerneel, or she were to feel the benefit, there must be something more powerful t ban private enterprise. If they trusted to private enterprise, Ireland would remain where she was now three centuries to came.—(Bear, hear.) The measure of his Noble Friend would supply to Ireland what lie believed private enterprise could not supply. They had been told that it was a party measure ; but he thought the course of the debate had shown that it was not a party mea sure. The course of the debate had shown that most of them in that House agreed that it would be an advantage to have railways in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Although they were prepay d to show the House that it could stimulate and employ a large amount of labour in_ Ireland, that it would open up the immense coal field of Mally, he thought it ought to be admitted that it was important to the Irish people that the measure should be carried. Rail. ways in Ireland would create new fields of industry, new warketa, new residents, and would give au impetus' to tradql