The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-04-30 00:00:00

ta illw' o f Als proof most-------- ~,„t e er bel l OW, not after all req upon the _, • ett s agai" - t ea) froOlh e 1 aPou the cir • '• r f or at to o f , but .oalt ot 0ti,,,, not curnsta ----- n ces of any small number general r. C HIUSTMAIS presenteu peti Bill from thet enhgemrzes to tl of cases. operation o Irish Church Reform the,, y of w e. e e i ota ..,,,, of Pxlielw4o'illitcld rau'errieloirterndua of the sae it s.,,ht render r . render bribery altogether impracticable, ecom,._ lished churchresident_ in en t 1 and Chapter of Waterford, and from b the clergy a the cu parties it ' ty of Waterford. ,there wer:tl,.l,„irld them, that for one vote perverted by bribery in c xvoagaiti there tutY perverted by intimidation. (Hear.) Others, rnuch co m nc o e r rned; and Pn H. DERE presented a petition fr9 il . B ro li n; nar i s hes 13 f ! - L•ef iueiC were who objected to the ballot, not on the score t eacy, but from pur . e dislike of secrecy in . any case. _ e l_ It of the Sabbath Observance Bill I bolitie rt , ° lo w led, th your presented two petitions I and for the a- , ee%. n ite'. eo , t h e icy, said, to for the extinction of tithes T„ s da, t o g gr y aeilt, said' rnendacay and promise -breaking; for ad . ttee -° be tilltPeri o under the ballot ft ir coniini c Ord ALTIIOEP gave notice, that on . t day i te Iga • r, r e h, ht break . a flex having . promised a vote to his •appointment of a selectthe 'a m . to tb e l ast hi . tha h t his promise with impunity, and vote i for the , and on ._ ip vibe` ,ci at the p o ll rate of agriciiltu re (hear;) nqully committee to i of v ib e ReY ballot • ' N • Now it was very true , move for a similar it} 1. etPect than might thus break his promise, but why should : and manufactures. (Hear, hear.) in then ower.....i, at he would d '1 that a tenant llonel DAVIES presented_ a petition f rodow ta.A l ,,,jay, ji.uie, ane,eallse the promise had been • ' 0 ? iere could be but tookne an and wi n the 7 , a of ''' eonscieu ' . given contrary is e .r, for the repeal of the house . ±' that a, • nous feeling. (llear.) Ile mere supposition Soler would be disposed to break his promise, r. SLANEY gave notice of amotaiononfoor opetort i o r r s , . CO 'wile extri n (Ore by c had promised contrary to his inclinations, and allow the sale and exchange . specific n other 4) a dproperty, without a enpuisor eonsfor c e or c ompulsion. ach case. arose. } promises alone that the chance of promise- It was from jf,„.,(llea.r, hear.) Let any man just contemplate ,ss i t. `;',', compulsory promise, and mark what was in nt_ Preferring Ain his conscience, the elector had tis Z' ct to promise to vote for B: he had promised to . li e ,i. thee ana dishonest vote--to tell a known and deb lyi Poll. A promise like this involved the neces the a °ll e way or the other : the voter must, at all events, hi s ~_ , either to his country if he executed the promise, c.,.;)1. if he broke it. Compare these two lies, be- Vie, voter in this dilemma had to choose. What 'lts o - t 11 ' 4 be worse than a dishonest vote at the poll? fal g a falsehood told under the most awful circumstances, saood told i its , vi ,, e , n express violation of a solemn trust towards 14 w _ u l n called upon him to speak the truth,—a false , re ent to obtrude upon his country a bastard and sup- Pre.sentative, and to vitiate the whole fabric and aeglslative assembly? What comments would be ishe,, t " who delivered a dishonest verdict, or upon '' ,l then, swin isrlY deposed an untruth in open court ? er n i„, as vile and dishonoured outcasts, and you ,se.tnti."?"S. Yet note well, that whatever be the hurt :, au 'eclat trust-breakers did in poisoning the fountains m pois4oaivalent fountainsslat the electoral trust 'en p a i ns r t, mg the of legiion. (Hear.) He , be Lo Present to the house forcibly this horn of the ea the cause gentlenien were very fond of dwelling exclu ell, aut, u t , e r• They talked as if the only lie which a voter I O faith ,"'e ,hero wrong which he could commit, was the • If th 4.l th one who hadextorted from him a dishonest `3y, so e person to whom trust was confided pledged t a le Priv - 0 fo rf ••-e covenant to violate it, they must cum tactitv ntitt eoed e ,_ ell his covenant and execute his trust. They it; l'a and censure him for entering into so criminal e cov e the y would not allow him to make the fixity:w ig the etnant an excuse for the still greater immorality (Cheers.) He prized as highly as any ,„,4 -: a promise, but it was preposterous to treat . t ,„"„ f a s if it were the sole and single duty which a ceald'p4s'Arol. Now, the very worst effect which the NI _ u'.Produce was to enable these c . ompnls t ori would promises to ge violated with impunity; . bu .t `ad with h_i Would nu...or could create any new breach of faith,—it of voti " could introduce . any additional lie into the • a i t t ? i ", and breaks faith with his country,—secretly, 's 841)e ilg• V eting openly, the dependent keeps faith • it other oround t ask for the ballot, he would ask it a superior, and keeps faith with his couri. 4 was tit' L ° 1 frivolous and self aristoe e only scho o lmaster of a h ea rPo rae. (Cheers.) In conclusion, he would say, ly t o ti .teat s mt Prlt, so that they should loecome insensible to li wi w e th t aussisase.a,the powerof breathing into En . glish voters g e u us . m nauti m it t i e eut )ivo_seiention3 h rational Pta.tions of the private seducer, and open ns of those . who came to guide te _ . s 41 1 d I. l l . 3 •Prov ettv . Preference, if they could opera thi great v ? oey " nt in the bosoms of the voters themselves, ,.. it h e lte kne eagerly hasten to do it without a moment's Oe d , i k aewtZ tt t t hat human power reached not so far as that ; it 1 41 ! ) t by i , ,he ballot would go near to accomplish the same ise n —re akiP eet tfYing all th e mora l infirmity of the voter, th -v erbo l , g the force of those seductions which would other „ a l l fr a li tiett er att _ ~., yhat %vas all that they could do with respect kg, °getlier eradicate'iq liabilities of our common nature; they coul . d r „it aid eoun them, but they might circumscribe thei Ito, t hese ! er work their efficacy; they might disarm and Igh t They 14.1oisters Of evil who strove to take advantage of Li a :t leystweealid Out render a man invulnerable. but they ~1 1 1 c Di a,a tb e • th na ule him to walk unhurt. (Hear, hear.) It 4( al 'l t. -4 ' b e di;: -°st ir aPortant topics to which legislative_att m en ) - - el ler :) wee e cted to calculate accurately the force . of .t te a _ t i . t „ If ti tnt e ve,y man stood exposed, aucirto remove it . 1 alto - t N." 1114 possibly be done; it not, to diminish it to tii t ' eaostreticable extent. The hon. member sat down 1 lir °rubl e eh . In v is G , t . cerin. 'lel te3l l .pl a v said that he felt great pleasure in seconding ielleliosit• ei:','lluvei_ocecprr.encees which - he had witnessed at the 't th ' goi te , uc a him of the absolute necessity of the bal lii Z elect ' Ettld the parsons were leagued together to pre it4litutiaulflot,onr.Berfevoniit giving an honetvote. Ile would vote . ,p, a protection . against the meddling if le to l ' i a t ' rBe as at os to tit, elections which had done more to bring ~,t „resit„ unive disrepute than perhaps their ithe`i,..s'ear ) -il ee to the civil and religious liberty of the peo esll,'4,l ri On) leti for .tRLINGTON was opposed to the motion. It was t .11) 41 ves • u - i -it was , unnecessary • it would attain no good NI 4 0 Pol t l. -414 it would lead to' bad consequences—moral, ti l t7 l.: - - i e il Y tvr:rt:4l, Change in the habits and institutions to , ~ cu ~,,, accustomedwas in itself an evil, which should tv aehb `' for the certainty of a great practical benefit ; 44,18? the tie'll'el'ithad been pointed out by the hon. mover. The ci,ilalchtt.,!:trit in which the motion originated, and the !ea -144 etk:a bee add uced i n it s support, were, to his npn d, 41 ' 8 1 81 tio lli r el i_s against it. It was an ebullition of that tt tl• 4B e l s i .',.L.le times Particularly . as it was evolved from the 'tild: t i l 4,".114'h It was the duty of parliament to check, ra . .- tOY°Ps 'rength-rage. Then, the hon. theirmembe told them surely t, sh o 9l the democracy against ich ; but . ll ti ets o , 4 q ha • tit q racy' ve its due intfuence, and the constitution was tie l , ll , l it ik t There might be some case made out for t e k lit,nt i : d le s waV of rotten boroughs and narrow constitu i..l:Olt e i v ir e4 tli no reformedment would hold,good under rt st °4 4l h ar gea and representative system, . Pro iTetieehe t Ze r lts due influence according to the spirit and '''t e. 1 ' 1 4, 1 ' 'so c onstitution, but it could only exercise this 4 Ni1114 G a tiro voce system of franchise ; therefore the n 141 y stunt °fat? unc onstitutional mode of voting. Then i o l f R t ati . c 'vel ) ,2_,,lew, the ballot would extinguish that sir 't• Ik, 4 tal -."4 frankness which was the pride of the English Sh Iv ptTake his life one scene of suspicion and hypocrisy. ~5 5 it e T t i , Was also 13 1 ) posed to the hon. member's mo resent to' lll l:kL e prese - t 7r, (l . ,for ? Would the ballot attain the ends of "afrlo of "4-4 c system better or as well as the . p . . I tial il at v° tiog under the Reform Bill? He maintained 7 t.ty 114 st, imucluse; 64t14..„' allot ilt.:),,ltulli'ld w ee at because •it was a secret mode of voting. the als .., the voter from all responsibility in the i:lt l i t herr vd e ed the only means of ensuring respoust.hatt}n publicity being admitted on ad . hands .. 4e 401)4,, darkness d vsterv; it panted rur th, ope l o lt ~'!llt il _ 4 ,:q t itouly in the an ligh m t - of da . . 1 . be franchise was a_ teki'e allot ;b ivate right, (were it } a private one, N(I aft • toight ally of it. ci th e aid to apply, but not otherwise,) and the UMW i Dr ev bcio, exercise it publicly was unwo LZ ll r th eat th •• prevent bribery and .confusion at elections,. intSeCluesetioel•pression of the _rich man ? Let America but r"bLttlt, l i 4 ha m an ll. ,(Hear, hear.) He did not deny . tha . t the i o '4(l t 2, individual instances be a protection , ;lik ot o i t A the advantages in those instances bore no rely k 4 )4 s korai di d • ntages. Only think of gene.rat 1Y t itlie * --1 lere isitl s c , an honourable public trust as if it ae t t i l e s to ,,, a a act of wilich one should be ashamed. Wear.) Atie tlieCe habit would extend itself to the other acts of q a tvou Z i - 4 tt.til, t becam e of those above-board, upright, and 411 )84 1 4, l ites of a m nly eh ter ? (Hear, hear.) But Zi- I - h er s k . ti cb c) o l-1 ,., 1 _ 4 e Y s ou have noprotection for the poor voter it ° , l 4 a , , , r uall ot. t'y; sor . lie would r have a far stronger one tin,Hth_l(ot theli„', --the schoolmaster--an enlightened publ i i n c , a ,, h n ''') Neith r Mr. Mills from whose Er srq :4 4 t--;_g4t),,,-* illetuber e (without '. acknowledg,meut) derived l ietsi t tl t• t i' t ,ti e ' ci ts ... , _nor say of his followers, had fairly , met the -.Lo tikat school f " philosophy" it (14„ teet of pa the force of .public op , inion lint it was k,tte ,the Mi treo II "Ittl Lad was influenced but by one•set of motives, that they argued 4, 1• • lo iettei t-,:.°lleat forgetful that it.possessed at least an i e le .' ` ‘ • IS - L'e IntluenCed by good ones. (Hear, hear.) :t ty i i h tt 4ii tt‘o i,,, Protested against the manner in which the hri,l'ert(tit,° two 'W i ld on had divided the constituency of the i l k h °ll ' th:C a sses the landlords and the tenants, or, in 1, „N•'' Ite,Qu,,r In designating the new constituency ere- V• v 4...* tae,. -Y k ra nts 'and the slaves. Neither could he agree q e 'llt e l .B ' 11 - e T ia ula as living ciphers, and as mere wax e ' by l aPp et , aot know what might be the case in Lon , Tkrg ; e ' . l to such members andthe house as had been ii: a Bl , e , t ed e 6: l e t Populous places . , asked them whether hi lls tLessiv ."'selves the nominees of corrupt influence ;"eer, (ll..,honese'l2_ti.tnidation ? (Cries of hear, hear, hear.) tr W tt :'.k iu-the'pght imaginelrom the . tone of the hon. . . s re ti " hal lo , ~.,,iited States all parties were united iin e trn t C ' he would read them the sentiments which lo show them how wide that . supposition MANUFACTURERS' JOINT FOND% r. SLA NET rose to move for leave to bring la manufacturers and mechanics to insure diet mrary want of employment, by Ling a safe joint fund, vested in t e üblic .oved and available security. In order to sl,_en he Ving thel]cuL and growing number of the class for whiel° date, it was only necessary to state that tb ury, whilst the increase in the general itry had been t 5 per cent., the increase in population was 50 per cent. One of the it h. this important class was exposed cnsi it fluctuations in the demand for their labour.. actuations iu the demand for uea manufacturig 11 many : they were both foreign and donicstnic._ce mployment had been superseded in c onscq rations, as in the case of the hand-loo m urea in resent a most depressed condition, hein it! k' the competition with the power-looms. anals and rail-roads, in particular l 0 lie, w persons out of employment in one Place' that a new demand for manufacturing Ol' ted in another. Bad harvests had produce' se circumstances were su ffi cient. to aeoll at lant pievalence of distress in some part of most important point was to ascer tain the evil. In endeavouring to provid e , 1- t ut nst the distress occasioned by tempora r y ,„, t, he did not propose to do anything II :h would cost the country a single fartbiog,, of upon any one,—he merely proposed to gly Ireds of thousands of industrious men to ec ak afe deposit funds which would ensure thein ; and want arising in cases of failure of etaP xved that if wages were equa ll y distributed sta itry there would be su ffi cient to keep a ll the 3in comfort. lie wanted the mem bers )led, at periods when wages were high,,t e ‘ , 4 ; e a fund which should supply the den' od. Manufacturers would then have af' a iu seasons of deficiency of employmen t. which must recommend itself to the hot ° proposed that mechanics and manufactures° ;;I to deposit joint funds in savings' ben.,r,j, rities to provide against that want of e"".0 continually occurring in one trade or other in kie kindom. He wished to prevent the sit ad from being cheated, and to give the WI Lity of recovering their funds as was at Po, members of friendly societies. He sugg es ' uitted to draw up their own rules, nothlaracin Tt that they should not be illegal, l' ar Al a to enforce their rules as in cases of frien. ld give them security against trustees, and P r th 3 C o v r own o ffi cers cheating them; also enactin', 7 died, his executor be obliged to satislY sale e 4 oe ety in the first instance. He would give.,„";; f3 d l Y,`:,l o It of recovery that was granted by the r " a be , It might be said that the funds would be ober& ed to mischievous purposes. He asked suc h 1 ` 1 %; edieut to prevent the accumulation of °li e the w ; r would be misapplied ? Let the house , str d veen the evils of combination and wan' o f 00 ould find that the latter produced misery and I°, !qual, if not in a still greater, degree thou op erlP o ill manufacturers were to apply the fund it " Pr ae which had led them to accumulate it t c° ,, c ule ' the evil of continuing to do so, and the f or ha s The hon. member concluded by moving " ir bill to the effect already stated. h b et"t oi l C O BBETT thought that it would be nio e , t he P e t i r money, if they had any, in the pockets n" ol'4 not liCely that they were overburdened ii e 0 cl, it If the people were well fed and well do', ble to take care of their own money , if tll6 ' . fir 6 , Lr. of HARDT supported the measure,and ektiLleoty care would be taken that those funds 5110 a. ie purposes of combination. ie . a tiorly „, lr. Hostig thought that the word corobi e r i a ooir' sense, had been too much applied to o's ° , - bj e , h e L for the protection of their own tutere s ”, on I was used to designate similar association rooto masters. Ile would give his support to the P s 01 ,41 .14 if any part of it went to impose restrictione 0.0 aof their funds by the working classes, at)! L -a proposition. O u t :r. HILL supported the measure. His ho n ' {ti tle for Middlesex was mistaken if he supe'r;oo9' was accompanied with any restrictive e c t i - bee was of opinion that friendly societies ha 04 D he greatest benefit to the country. are ° Il fA Ir. SLANEY, in reply, said that this meas coercive clause,—it would allow those sa— r funds as they liked. r ph he motion was then put and carried. „, the f lr. PHILLPOTTS presented a petition frt;ce ilocester, and it stated, that in consetla-ber, e a m place at the election there last Deee la t t election there, it was their conviction tha folic bye )y the free and unshackled exercise o f their _by., ,ugh the introduction of the vote by ballot• t he he petition was read, and ordered to l ie on .011 THE VOTE BY BALLOT. ~ 00P oil fr. GROTE then brought before the house I° . for the method of taking the votes at electionb'st thei!, liament. It was his intention to prouoseL as V .etly instead of openly. Strongly, hotg e , - riie it ortance of the change which he wa s tt 1. -i .rely have been bold enough to insist uPea„lrotr.ll wise inconsistent or at variance with tne ,clo‘o 6 great measure of reform—a measure T,tioeise allude without his humble tribute of n 4 11 3 , 1 1 ,0 Ite, D: but it would be in the recollectio n ot„' men e le lord who introduced the reform Inm.ith'P'4 o ,; ) , ning speech the question of the ballot, P' :ct of declaring that he pronounced no °P„ t ioe' r e 4 : ) ,f :it must be left for subsequent consid er- al fe 40 ad 1 the reform bill the first approach to thatr" 000losti em. The great decree had gone forth 00 e altogether extinguished, and representatlos Pt ) oil glace. The idea of a sham representatioo t. 'dst the disgraces and mischiefs of the l'n s oeli t 00, t principle that the house last year re-orge wt:oc at body. They gave it a new form, th e l o a aber, and distributed it into new c lasses , 0 0 0 1 , believed that the reform bill gave thein,l o ve 5 ` 1 4 ut 1,000,000 of persons. What would thq.,,tcov,e/1 been a special clause in the bill dividing. turieiii use classes, voters juris sus and voters jel l ' a 551 11 15 , tb srs and servile voters, voters entitled to a ss Ovid voters under legal compulsion to esr e t 0 0 ) 1 ther ? What if the bill had enacted that es„, . f DI) welled to give his vote at the dictation of o ne t customers, under the penalty of 1:50, w s P L , eo3ls xercise his own free-will ? If any `Dill, tb!'t oot n directly prescribed by the reform .itel c i t s . in pieces amidst the execrations of tbe !odeies, Whigs, and radicals would have deoou e , 0 01 nimbus voice. There would not have b t e hisPt r ty ate from any political party to vindicate j a i he right of private judgment in any Pn r i ," a t 05 (l e leers.) Ile should be told, no doubt , t't„• So Oho id, the law interfered with no man's ve iea :ht if he pleased, refuse to obey dietat' bt, if he chose to abide the couseq.uelic,e,%jou of electors who escaped from this ce' e aist e lle science and their interest by t° refusing , r : to dr i bs ers made a compromise for refusing t ‘ e.,7iiict e d mg no vote at all. We had here a. it, resulting from the unguarded Oa ; olio ear.) Examples of this kind must be e w- bad very gentleman who heard him, a nd h 0 -, s'e or, Lave laid before the house a few instal °, the. 0 , 41 arrences at the last election, illustratiof ,o ry ov i ration of this electoral interference in an) *b fron' to° action, he abandoned this design, ne t Do t bit 01 als, heaven knew, for the materials wer e ol,: o ,l,o " * partly because he did not choose te „ A so idle of individual accusation,—partly .tY ef 'l h :g b y u the el . eXpe Ot tax , !r--4. e t th at 2 4 ,7aof4l4'ne aulellse nortiOl__,;ol.lllerekr, teeose Pt of 61' :I ,l le(C t i la h at a ta ; s r e ef ere b the 13 ' bill ° break9rapel'''r liaT tr :tore r: hero tacit 01 ttu e ved . thi ) sl a,),5' •: n cot ,: t • 1) / oe . - - ;i s lv r ' e l l e 'e betbe reit rate l ie ' a i t ticer ' lu l f el l of l yio the popula1000t:4 tithe g on e 11 the 11 ' t geatq u tbe . l a i ee ti whi t Terioi nsisteahe CYAVs,Ol9pd the bpur.....aotrfa'l2,t ne`t!,lll,,. riql6la b°l l ls ec, 4"elloo" e dis e roo d tol, , s g ti s e se . r.tr sc ho kosi whi( wear ers ble '',Opi r !'hous w ent jog 1113 . 5 tr 0 , i 0 ,A,,4 of ?fie ' 1 1)4: Le .gi.l t tyiyouttess w a pm ays44eatte"atedl'° kl dastri 4 0 14 the _ q ien J oel " vilfj 'hese i.ost wi t for oustr)teustiee lOcheie of tb e c e r rihaeker etic a a r" o P oe tUk p P°xsor e ' t of c / 1 '4 4, be a e uis I c 3ll l ca'cotal4 tel the ot h y leg , ' be re 11, an ,fith 35 , or elo o,k ouli th gP c .C OI V C Ct Be r(b ,0 oa iogt y ;to ' 5 41,1 ' L .. ' to fi. 7. efIIP W) , the erl l , "30 de tie Lea °Ce *l itv "tit • 1114 t the 1°1'630'41,i °I btit of tha t , . cove to pu t oY of 4, 0 ,,the t icieal 111.11)1ali'utile-Iteue,,e!Ity a faa, 01/110t toring t be it s t' • Co old Per : o . use bf o la bi t leity l , er r kao rta P i "ssi urors, s g ee; Wo u l d Pr oltar,glea'Aßi4„- wo u i, oc exoerail,„o,, no her 111,4 bre,,, vo!iti 01 brea k raeoE'reei°4thidu l h a( l l ' W rese, l3 . l ,o,ti t l esta Teht . beio la " th e ar lstoe ` ll ' heZ?osse, tiaivrYjamc jo g jtih, t s th reaty arld e ti 0 THE LIVERPO the governor of the province of New York, where the ballot prevailed, had expressed not long ago in a public document, which he had addressed to his constituents. The whole subject of the governor's grievance in that document was the intimida tion which had been exercised in favour of the government candidate, and against himself, who was the provincial or po pular candidate. This was his language—" 'I hat many persons holding offices in the public service of the United States have acted most improperly, by interfering iu our elections, is known to every man in the community, who has eyes to see, and who is not steeled by prejudice against the admission of truth." The governor then went through the different offices, beginning with those in the Navy-yard. After enumerating the holders of different offices, he added, " The documents herewith pro duced will show that at the last election officers in the public employ were brought up to vote, not according to their own feelings, but according to the feelings of the different chiefs in their respective departments, and that improper attempts were made upon all of them, in order to influence the result of the contest." lie would not tire the house by reading further ex tracts, but would confine himself to stating that the governor of New York concluded by stating a series of facts, proving a close concert between the officers of the Customs, the Excise, the Post-office, the Navy-yard, and even of the judicial Bench operating upon the local election.—(Hear, hear.) They had, then, the opinion of an able and accomplished man, who was practically acquainted with the system, that in one of the United States, where the Ballot was in full work, its effects were not such as the honourable member represented them in his argument. The honourable gentleman concluded by stat ing, that whilst on the other side of the house he had always voted against the introduction of the ballot into our elective system, and now that he was seated on the ministerial benches he saw no reason for changing his opinion. He shouldcertainly vote agaiust this motion. Dr. LUSHINGTON said that no man, however great his elo quence and ability, should induce him to believe that if the system of voting by ballot were made the law of the land, and if, as a consequence, the voting at elections was secret, the effect would not be visible in the diminution of that intimida , tip's, corruption and bribery, of which every member in the house complained, and of which all men professed their desire to obtain a reinedy.—(llear.) If there were any certainty in the motives of human actions, there was certainty in this, that when a man parted with his money for any object, he parted with it in pro portion to his assurance that the object which he sought to pur chase would be attained by the outlay. In proportion, there fore, as the house diminished the certainty of bribery being successfully exerted, would it diminish the attempts made to corrupt and influence the constituency of the country. He (Dr. Lushington) had had to contend at his last election against the whole weight of the West Indian interest. Now, he would give the house an instance how the West Indian interest had conducted their operations. The principals of a large West Indian house went to a tradesman, with whom they were in the habit of dealing. They said to him, " Will you give us one vote for Captain Marryat ?" He replied that he would. The next question was, Will you give us another against Dr. Lushington ?" The tradesman replied, that he was ready to give one vote to please them, because they were his customers, but said that he must give the other vote to please himself. " Then," said they, "make out your account immediately, there is a draught for the balance, but on no account shall you ever have another order from our house." It so happened that the tradesman was in independent circumstances. His spirit was roused by this mixture of insolence and oppression, and within an hour of the occurrence of this transaction he came and informed him (Dr. Lushington) of its particulars. (Hear, hear.) By the late reform bill they had extended the elective franchise, and by so doing they had rendered the adoption of the ballot more necessary. (Hear.) Sir G. PHILIPS declared himself adverse to the system of secret voting. It had been said that the ballot had been tried in America; but a friend of his, speaking from observation, had stated that too much importance was attached to this measure there. He wished to put all parties on their guard by impress ing upon them that the ballot, though it might be employed for good purposes, might be easily abused for bad. Major Far:coulee said, that if in the arguments adduced by hon. gentlemen who had brought thiS question before the house, or in those urged by hon members in support of the proposed change, he could discover any proof, however slight, that such a change would be beneficial to the real interests of the people, then indeed this measure should have his cordial support; but from the best consideration he had been enabled to give to it, he could discover little or no advantage derivable from it. On the contrary, to him at least it appeared fraught with results fa tal to the integrity of the popular character, not less than to the natural and honourable influence of a liberal social intercourse. The advantages enjoyed by us under our free constitution were originated and secured by no selfish or merely temporary views. No; those advantages had resulted from a generous but no less prudent spirit of legislation, looking, it was true, to the interests of each particular period of our progression, but never losing sight of the ultimate destinies of this constitu tional monarchy, as far as they were subject to human wisdom and control. Animated by this spirit, devotedly attached to this form of government, because he believed it to be the only one adapted to the feelin g s, the habits, and the true interests of the people of Eugland, he felt bound t o resist this and all other measures which, to his judgment, appeared levelled at what he might be allowed to call the interwoven interests of the people, the aristoctacy, and the crown. Ile, for one, would never consent to any disseverance of those interests ; and be lieving the ballot to have a decided tendency to such disseve rance, he should give his vote against this measure. Lord ALTIIOIIP said that since he had had the honour of a seat in that house, theme had been one division on this question, on the motion -of the hon. and learned gentleman opposite (Mr. O'Connell), in which he had voted for the adoption of the ballot, and he had since expressed himself in favour of that mode of taking votes; but he had never stated or urged it as a sine qua non of good government. (Hear.) Ile had stated that he was inclined to prefer it, but he did not fail, at the same time, to see many objections to it, though he still thought the advantages .preponderated. When the question of the reform of Parliament was before the house, though there were some who wished that that measure should have gone a great deal further, there was a readiness, for the sake of the; great measure of reform, to abandon the question of the ballot that was, in fact, the universal feeling of the country. If this was the ease—if, in the first plaCe,:they, uniting with the majority of reformers, (for those who espoused the ballot were not the majority of the reformers)—ir uniting with them they, obtained the measure of reform, it could not be right and pro-1 per, or just and fair, to turn round and say, " having obtained! this advantage, we will make use of it iu order to obtain the; ballot." But there was one ground on which he should not be justified at present, and in the circumstances of the country, in; giving his vote in favour of the motion. He never should have supported the ballot in a reformed Parliament or any other, unless he saw great practical inconveniences without.it. Ile did not deny that great practical evils were produced, but those evils must exist to a great extent, and become a-real public evil, before he could adopt so great a change in - the constitu tion in order to remedy them. lie did not think that under the present system of reform such evils.existed to any extent, and therefore not believing them to exist to such an extent as to influence the public interests, he certainly did not think we ought to adopt such a change as this. It had been stated by the hon. member who brought forward this motion, that when his noble friend introduced the reform bill, he stated that this was•a question not immediately connected with that measure., But he (Lord Althorp) appealed to every gentleman who was in the last Parliament, and who knew the whole proceedings whilst the question of reform was going on, whether the pro moters of that measure.did not contend that, as far as the re presentation of the people was concerned, that measure was not.considered and proposed as a final measure. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the speeches on both sides to-night, he thought some of those who had spoken for the ballot had exaggerated the evils it was proposed to cure; but he thought those who had spoken against it had been guilty of more exaggeration. He did not think that the ballot would destroy the legitimate in fluence of property, or that any measure would do so. But still he did not think it a grand panacea to prevent bribery and cor ruption, though it would render them 'more difficult. (Hear.) He avowed that if thereavere no other reasons, on the whole lie should prefer this mode of taking votes, but he did not think the evils were such as to justify the change. He was conscious that lie was liable to attack. for the vote he should give, but it' he gave his vote any other way, he should be liable to still greater attack. Mr. CoeeuTr said he never had been a very strenuous advo cate for the ballot. An hon. gentleman had referred to New York, and 'complained of the interference of - the government; but he complained of the government of the State of New York, not of the general government, which was a sort of foreign go vernment, not the 'municipal government-of the state. All ho said about the United States went to nothing at all. The noble 'lord (Ebrington) said that -property had its rights; he (Mr. Cob bett) knew it had its rights, and it its.dutics too. Property had a right to call upon the people to defend it. He never de flied the right of a nobleman to defend his estate; but though he admitted the rights of property, and the claims it had upon us, it had no-right to our souls; it had no right to command the souls and consciences of the people; and all that was asked was for the ballot, to enable the people to exercise their conscience, and to vote for the candidate they liked best. Talk of preventing bri bery! There could be no prevention of bribery without the ballot. Sir IL 'PEEL'S objection to the system of ballot was, that it FL STA NDA RD, would make the constitution of that house more democratic than it now was. lie thought that at present it was democra tic enough (hear, hear) ; and therefor e he openly opposed it on that ground. He thought there was quite infusion enough of democratic principle in the house for a mixed constitution such as ours. (Hear.) Let the house see what would be the effect of destroying the influence of property. If a man of ELMO a year were to have no more influence than a man of £lO a year, property would become of little value, and a system of repre sentation would be established against which no government could stand. Another ground of objection was, that after the experiment of last year, it would be too much to carry . on the principle of reform so much further without any experience as to the working of what they had already done. If there was to be no fixedness in the electoral system, all respect for authority would be removed. The system of universal suffrage would be much less objectionable than this. He knew of many ingenious arguments why women should be allowed to vote. They could hold property, and were vested with many important trusts, and could - vote for many public functionaries; but they had not yet been intrusted with the power of voting for members of parlia ment, though the arguments in their favour were as cogent as most, if not all, of those which he had heard in support of the ballot. He would ask, had they not last year said that they were trying a great experiment, and had not the consent of the country been given on the fair understanding that they were to go no further until they had some experience of the working of the experiment they had made ? He was sure the people would not be satisfied if they found the house night after night dis cussing further changes before they saw the effect of that which they had already made. The public would be much better pleased with, and the house would do more practical good in considering, the report of the commissioners on the state of the poor laws. (Hear, hear.) For these reasons, and thinking that they had carried their experiment far enough, and believ ing that one change would only beget the desire of some greater, he should oppose this motion. Let it be borne in mind, if ever there should arise a question on which a delusion might exist in the public mind,—and it often happened that the public mind was wrong on important questions for many months, before inure cool and calm deliberation dissipated the illusion ;—but if, dur ing the period of such delusion, a general election should take place, might they not have a parliament, not representing the deliberate opinion of the country, but the delusion under which it had laboured? (Hear, hear.) And might not such a parlia ment work irretrievable mischief to the country ? On these grounds he would oppose this motion, and he hoped that re formers and anti-reformers would join in not consenting to alter the constitution until they had proof of its tried inefficacy. (Hear ' hear.) Mr. C. BERKELEY supported the motion. He had known an instance where 45 electors in one county had been induced to vote against their consciences. Until the law of ballot was the law of the land, we should have no true representation. Mr. GUOTE briefly replied. The house divided : Noes 2ll Ayes lO6 Majority against the motion 105 CHURCH RIFORIII (IRELAND) . Sir R. PEEL asked upon what day the noble lord intended to bring forward the second reading of the Irish Church Reform Bill? Lord ALTHORP replied, that it would be proposed, if possible, on Monday. Sir J. ICEY gave notice, that he should move a call of the house on Monday, previously to bringing forward his motion on the subject of the assessed taxes. In answer to a question from Major Beauclerk, Lord ALTHORP expressed an opinion that licensed victuallers had not a fair claim to have their houses considered as shops in reference to the mitigation of the assessed taxes. The remaining orders of the day having been disposed of, the house adjourned at 1 o'clock. FRIDAY. The Speaker took the chair at a quarter-past twelve o'clock, after which the house was occupied in advancing the private business a stage, and in the reception of petitions until three o'clock, when the Speaker left the chair. The Speaker resumed the chair at five o'clock. Lord Auriton.p laid on the table a copy of a supplemental convention between his Majesty and the King of the French, for the more effectual suppression of the traffic iu slaves. Mr. LENNARD brought in a bill for the abolition of the pu nishment of death in cases of breaking into and stealing from dwelling-houses.—Read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Friday next. Sir E. KNATCIIBULL presented a petition from a place in Kent for the repeal of the malt duty ; and a petition from the archdeacon and diocess of Canterbury against the Irish Church Bill. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL brought up the reports of the seve ral committees on flues and recoveries; on the limitation of actions; on the law of dower; and on the courtesy of England. —Reports ordered to be recommitted on the Ist of May. On the order of the day being read for the house resolving itself into a committee of supply, Mr. C. O'CoNNum, (we understood) asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the houses of licensed victuallers would be comprehended under the same exemption as houses with shops, in the contemplated reduction of the asses se d taxes. Ile thought the licensed victuallers entitled to the same privileges as others. Lord ALTIViRP replied that licensed victuallers would not be so comprehended, uor did he think they were placed in the same situation as shopkeepers. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. The Marques of CHANDOS rose for the purpose of bringing forward the resolution of which he had given notice relative to agricultural distress. He was aware that the object of his mo tion had been in some measure forestalled by the notice given by the noble lord (Althorp) for a select committee to inquire into the state of agriculture. He, however, saw uo reason why he should refrain from pressing his resolution.on the notice of the house. The noble marques concluded by moving the follow ing resolution :—" That in any reduction of taxation which may be considered expedient, it is necessary that the interests •of the agricultural portion of the community should be duly considered." Mr. COSBETT said, it had been asked what were ministers to do in order to relieve the burdens of the people ? He would answer, let them takeoff part of the expenditure of the country; for that, and that alone, was the way. Lord KI.THORP could not quite admit the principle which the noble marques seemed anxious to lay down, that the agriculturists could only be relieved by the repeal of the taxes which pressed immediately upon them. He (Lord Althorp) thought, on the contrary, that the cultivators of the soil would be more effectually relieved by the repeal of the taxes which pressed upon the community m general, for did not the profits of the cultivators of the soil depend upon the consumption of the produce of the soil ? The effect, therefore, of taking off the taxes which were levied upon the productions of industry, must be to relieve the agriculturists. The grand object he had' in view was to effect such a.degree of reduction as would gene -rally relieve the people. The amount of reduction was, to be sure, not great,-but as far as it went it would, be - believed, have . the effect he intended, and that was to benefit every other class of the community as well as the agriculturists. The noble marques had complained of the insufficient nature of the reduc tions in the cases of carts and bailiffs, but could he devise a. reduction in any other specific tax which would be more bene ficial to the farmers'? The Marques of CHANDOS replied he , could, and instanced the tax on agricultural insurances. Lord ALTHORP, whose reply was very 'indistinctly heard, was understood to object to a reduction in•this tax, and to per sist in his.opinion that the reductions proposed by government were the most likely to alleviate the burdens of the agricultur. fists. He objected to the resolution submitted by the noble marqu es, because he thought it would interfere uselessly with the motion of which he had given .notice. While he opposed the resolution, he, however, wished it to be distinctly under stood as his opinion that the agricultural classes were entitled' to relief as well and as speedily as any other class of the.com inunity. On•the motion for a division, the numbers were : For.the original motion. • . 188 For the amendment . • • . 90 Majority 'against the Marques of Chandos's resolution . . • • , • , 28 MA LT :TAX. Lord ALTHOUP having moved that the Spealcer•do leave the chair,___ SIT W. INGILBY rose to move for a reduction in the duty on malt, and argued that not only the agricultural interest, but the country, -gene' ally, would be greatly relieved.und benefitted by a remission, or alleviation of the malt duty. In'his own county barley was now selling at a lower price than the .amount of duty paid to government on its conversion into malt. It' the farmers and landlords were to be ground down and destroyed by oppressive taxes, what ultimately was to become of the land lord himself ? He hopctl and - trusted . that the noble lord, while there was .yettirne, would endeavourto find means for providing for the deficiency that would be occasioned by a remission of this obnoxious tax, •anti afford some relief to the agricultural - interest by reduciug it. He - was sorry to tell the noble lord that he was but too well satisfied• that the rents which were paid did not come out of the producti , e sources of the soil, but from the capital of the occupiei. The object of his propo sition was to benefit the land, at the same time that he gaN e contentment and satisfaction to all classes of the community, and advanced the moral character of the great mass of the people. Ile had beenasked to find a tax as a substitute for the malt duty, but it was not his duty to do so. When he had been created. Chancellor of the Exchequer, it wonid he time enough for him to consider the ways and means (laughter), though then, perhaps, like other Chancellors of the Exchequer, he might be more afraid of the fundlord than the landlord, and there fore omit to tax capital which was lying dead an d unpro d u c t i ve to the country. I. rom his situation and circumstances in so ciety, the . landlord was obliged to keep his carriages, and horses, and servants, all of which benefitted the country,• and all of which were taxed; but the fundlord might receive thoneant;s in the shape of dividends, and content himself with keepingVa old woman and a cat. (Great laughter.) The hon. bariinat having recapitulated some of the arguments adduc e d by hi m on a former evening for a remission of the malt tax, observed that he had again brought forward a motion on the subject, not for the purpose of troubling or embarrassing the noble lord, but for his gratification (a laugh) with a view to afford him an op= portunitv of revising his former opinion. No doubt the noble lord would have felt disappointed if he (Sir W. Ingilby) had not kept his promise and again raised the question. In con clusion the hon. baronet moved, that the duty on malt be 're, ducted from 20s. &I. to 10s. a quarter. Mr. PARROTT seconded the motion, and argued that if it were complied with the loss to th e revenue wou ld not b e a b ove £1,200,000. The gross produce of the tax was £4,825,000; but, notwithstanding a remission of half the duty, increase of con sumption would prevent the revenue from suffering to a greater extent than he had stated. Sir J. SEBRIGHT was thoroughly sensible of the benefits that would arise from the adoption of the hon. baronet's motion ; few things would give greater relief to the country than a re duction of the malt tax. Nevertheless, he regretted that he could not support the motion, because he did not think the pre sent the time when ministers could reduce taxes in general. Mr. BENETT concurred with the hon. baronet who had just spoken on the impropriety of supporting the remission of a tax without being satisfied that it could be spared, or being in a si tuation to point out a mode of supplying the deficiency. He was an advocate for a great commutation of the taxation which affected productive industry by a tax upon property. Lord Ai:rimer said that if the motion of the lion, meniber for Lincolnshire, and that of which notice had been given for the repeal of the assessed taxes, should be adopted by the house, a commutation of taxes would be inevitable. He wished mem bers to reflect upon the question of a property tax, which was so constantly urged in that house, and to consider whether, if that tax were in operation, it would, upon the whole, be more advantageous than the present aystem of taxation. Ile appre heude.d that the property tax which was spoken of was one up on realized income, and not upon income derived from profes sional exertions, and if so, he would ask members connected with the landed interest whether such a tax was likely to prove beneficial to them? Ile, however, would not be content to argue the question in that way; he objected to the introduction of a property tax, because it was opposed by difficulties which he could not see his way out of. lie was uite certain that no man who recollected the property tax of 1816 would say it, was an equitable tax. Indeed, e ver y one sa id t h at i t was not. This subject of a property tax very much resembled the state in which the question of the poor laws stood. Everybody was agreed that the system of poor laws was bad, but they found great dia.; culty in suggesting a better. He had never heard any plan pro posed by which property could be equally subjected to a tax. An hon. baronet had asserted that the government had lost the confidence of the country on account of their vacillation. —They had been accused of being very obstinate, but he had never heard it suggested that they had exhibited an extraordi nary degree of vacillation. If he and hi s co ll eagues h a d l ost the confidence of the country, it could not be for their yacilla; tion. The present motion proposed to reduce £2,500,000.- It mattered little whether that amount or the whole tax was pro-. posed to be reduced. In either case, if the proposition were agreed to, it would be impossible to provide for the service of the country. It must be recollected that the whole amount of the surplus, without the reduction of taxation which he (Lord Althorp) proposed, was only £1,500,000, and yet the hon. member proposed to reduce taxes to the extent of £2,500,000. He might just as well propose to reduce £5,000,000. He was ready to admit, as a general proposition, that in reducing. taxes on articles of consumption the revenue did not suffer to the full amount of the reduction, because consumption increased; but that argument did not apply so strongly to the malt-tax as to other taxes. The tax upon malt did not appear to operate with such pressure as to diminish consumption. H on . mem b ers w h o talked of nothing having been done for the interests of the barley growers must recollect that the repeal of the beer-tax had been most beneficial to them. In 1830, previously to the repeal of the beer-tax, the number of bushels of malt consumed was 28,814,892; in 1831, (after the repeal of the beer-tax) it was 35,160,000; and in 183'2 it was , 10,334,000. From this it appeared that the tax had not much impeded consumption, though to a certain extent of course it had, and therefore he was justified iu concluding that a repeal of a part of the tax wouldasot greatly augment the consumption. An hon. mein ber said he would show ministers how to supply the deficiency occasioned by the reduction of the malt-tax, and he had spoken of large masses of capital lying unemployed, which he thou g h; ministers ought to get hold of. lie should be very glad to do so, if the hon. member would be so good as to t e ll him whew those masses of property were. (A laugh.) Whatever hon. members might think of the motion before the house, lie was sure of this—that if it were agreed to, it would be absolutely impossible to carry it into effect, unless some other me m b er should propose a property tax. For these reasons he felt it to be absolutely necessary to oppose the motion. An hon. baro net had said that it was the duty of the government to find a substitute for any tax which the house might repeal. He ad• mitted that was fair doctrine, but at the same time he felt it his duty to state, that he was unable to provide any substitute for the tax proposed to be repealed . which would prove equally satisfactory to the house and the country. He hoped he should not be considered as acting unfairly in stating that ther e was . no tax which he should feel - himself justified in proposing as a substitute for the malt tax. Then the question was, were the house, in the present state of the finances, prepared to reduce such an amount of taxation as must necessarily affect public credit? It would be impossible for the interest of the debt to be paid if the house should reduce such a large amount of tax ation as was proposed by the present motion. On a former occasion, an lion. member had asserted that the members for the metropolitan districts had obtained a complete control over him. What had passed within the last two days must convince any person that that was not the case. In bringing forward his -budget, he had.endeavoured to act as impartially as he could towards the different interests in the community. Ile knew that in consequence of not having done more for the inhabitants of .theanetropolis, his plan was unpopular in this great city, and he Might also collect from the spee c he s whi c h h e had heard that evening, that it was likewise unpopular with the agricul tural interest. That was the fate of every man in his situation who endeavoured-to do-what was fair to all parties. (Hear.-) He trusted, however,. that he was not a person to vacillate much in his conduct in consequence of such unpopularity com ing upon him, and it was his intention, as long as he held the situation which he had the honour to till, to endeavour to re duce taxes fairly with reference to all classes of the commu nity. (Hear, hear.) Sir C. Bunarma would support the motion before the hours , . He did not believe that any deficiency would be caused by the reduction of the duty • for, in his opinion, the : redu c ti o n o f t h e duty would have the duty; of doubling the consumption of malt. The house then divided on the amendment proposed by Sir W. Ingilby, ,when-there appeared : Ayes - - 162 N oes Majority against ministers —lO The result was received with loud cheers. On .re-entering the gallery, Mr. Itomasox - was on his legs. He ilisclainaed being info. eneed in the vote he had given hy any feeling of hostility to the :ministers. (A laugh,) He considered the :effect of the motion to be of great importance ? and that it established tagreat principle, that the system of indirect taxation was at an end, and that the result of -the vote was to lead to au enlarged con sideration of the whole .systemcf our taxation. Itam.w_rested with his:Majesty's 1-linisters to say in ,what manner the defici ency was to be made up; and:he should, if they did not, submit a motion forthe supply of- the sum reduced. Lord ALTJIORP . gave the hon. gentleman full c re dit. w h en stated that he did not intend to embarrass ministers by the.VOLe he had.given. (Hear, hear.) He believed other honourable gentlemen had the same views; but the decisi on o f th e h ouse had certainly pl ace d his Majesty's government. in a situation of considerable embarrassment. Of course,. however, after the decision the house had come,to, ,riotwithstamliiT, the majority was not very large, he should be ashamed to make the least opposition or objection to, carry the resolution. into effect. The resolution that " It is the _opinion of this house that the duty of malt should be rciluced to 10s. the gliarter," was then put and agreed to. Lord AiTHORP then moved that theiorslerpf the day:for the house going into a committee , of ways andaneaus be postponed till Monday, which was agreed to.—Adjourned: