The Sun. — London, England, 1806-06-18 00:00:00

Anot:ier,-pbjerticirt 1:n:: been'tAtn by t!L: '.o . dpon ,11 s elk:more, as to the em pence vVith ichirn it would be ,attended ; and, ht. nut sa . •?., that this had been most unfairly argued. 'Those who had argued 'on this'uomil, had included in their esti tnate the pens,ions given to disabled and retired ioh. diers, -i.vrhen it must be evident that these pension§ were what soldiers.disabled by wounds' or age, %Vete justly entitled to, assa.2l*?Vision tire remnipder of their lives, and that they fOrthed a strong incoute ment ou the side of .the re.eruiting service. He would not detain the House, by entering into any , further discussion of the, snbieei, the Lirguments urged on the other side,. Navinnglalready been fully and completely answered. He should therefore merely declare his determination t 9 oppose the Amend ment. • _ Lord EAWKESBURY, in explanation, said he had o knowledge whatever of the Order alluded to by the Noble Earl. _ _ The Earl of SUFFOLK argued generally in favour of the Bill, and objetited to the Amendment. The Earl of WESTMORLAN O repeated several of his_ former arguments against the measure,.and de nied mw knowledge of the Order to which the Noble Earl (Lauderdale) alluded. He stipporteil the Amendment. The question was then put, tbat the word ".se ven'' stand part of the Bill ; which was carried.— The Bill was passed, and a MesOge Sent to the House of Commons to acquaint them therewith. • • The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Chelsea Allowances A long conversation ensued, in which the'Earl of AVEs - rmoß,r...vsp, Lord HAWRESBURY, the DtiKE of Cu mr3 - and Lord ELDON,', requested in for (mation from Noble Lords an the other side as to the probable amount of the allowances to be issued, and contended . that it , was unprecedented to bring . a Bill of this nature. before Parliament without sonic previouS estimate of the amount of the.expence. - Lord GRENSVILT:E i the Earl of.RossLyN, - the Earl of CARNARVON, Lurd AUCKLAND, and the Earl of LAODERDAi,F, contended, on the other hand, that it was impossible to. make an estimate of an expence the amount of Which must depend upon future casual ties and 'contingencies, and that the only objeel of the Bill was to give the soldier a le g al title td receive those allowances which might be hereafter direeted •by his Majesty and san&ioned by a Vote of Parlia , Inept. Lord ELDON, complained that the Bill was arnaz.: ingly tznirttelligiblc._ Lord ii;RENVILLE said, if Noble Lords on the other side' would Stay, he would endeavour, as far as his poor abilities would allow, still further to explain the Bill. - Lord ELDON said, he would stay as long as the Noble Lord-wished, if he - could make the Bill intel ligible. • - • NO farther . bbjetStion *as made to the Bill, which passed throgli the ,coMmittee, and was reported without lnieudment. Adjourned rill.ui-morrow (this day). - HOUSE OF COMMONS. TUESDAY, JUNE 17. The Debate was resumed upon the Globe Insur •ance Incorporation Bill, and after some observations from Sir 1. ANDERSON, Mr. S. LEFEvra., and Sir T. INlcTcALvii,' the 'Gallery was' cleared for a divi sion, but no division too?; place. The Bill was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time. . Petitions were presented by Sirs J. ANDERSON and W. tuirts, front several Insurance Companies, against the Globe Insurance Incorporation Ordered 'to lie on the Table. Sir Jong SINCLAIR ;are notice, that he would to-morrow call, the attention of the House to the Report of the, Committee on the Broad-wheeled Carriage 1111, particularly to that part of it which related , to the number of outside passengers allowed upon stittge-coaches. Mr:Tv-x.l.l>R pre.ientei a Petition froni certaiD persons against the Brighton, Jetty BilL The Peti tion stated, that the Petitioners were ignorant , until very lately - that such a:Bill was before the House and prayed that they might \ be ft;roished with a Copy of the said Bill, in . order . that they might op pose it._ _ tleheuk presDlted 'certain Papers from the India Houst, pursuant . to order.—Ordered to lie on the Table. The Gibraltar and Malta Post Bill, the Duke of GraltoU's Agreement Bill, and the Prussian Yarn Bill ware read a second tiaie, ,and committed for to-morrow. The Produaion of certain Papers relative to India, which were ordered some time since, btit which ►✓ere not yet op the Table, - was ordered forthwith. Ordered, on the Motion of Mr. CALVERT, that a ret - utn.should be presented to the House of the In-: fermlitions brouAbt forward, and of the Conv;laions and CoMpromiseS which had taken place in -conse quence of the offences': against the Act imposing a Ditty on Malt, for Ten Years, ending in June; 1806. IRISH AFFAIRS JOHN NRWPORT brought up" the Bill-for regu - lat ing the Dutiei upon Exports and Imports from Irelaud ; which was read a first time, and was or &red to be read a second time to-morrow. Sir J. NI; wpti RT brought up 'the Bill for amend ing ofhst Ses,i(nis for regal sting the Licences on the sale of Sp►rituous Liquors.:---React a fitst time, and ordered to be,read a sec rift tine to-morrow. "Sir Jolt's . INTEwpowr moved, that the Order of the, l',2d of May, granting. leave to bring in a 13111 to :;cable the Militia °fib - eland to volunteer into the Line, might be r, ad. • The Order haVingheen read, • Sir JOll3 AI'"IVPORT moved, that it might 1)e dischrged he said, his obje& in making this Mo. tion - was to substitute another Bill in the room of the one present b4ore thellouse, and which he did not think wonld be liable to the same obje6tions. Cololtel ij'AGI I 7.6LL, said,, that as the Session was r bvi very fir advanced, and as it WI; not probable many ..Frisk Members; particularly llilitia Co ' v.. cud attend during the remainder, of it, he hoped tha't - thv Hon. Baronet, in frarnit hislpew Bill; would pay prdpv attetniou to the observations they had r4-ade upon forcper ticcdiions, and that he riot: intreduCe 'ilicse regulations which they had coosidotMasobje(tionable in the new Bill. •' Sir' tcomy NE:v . I;6:4T begged leave to observe, that this Was not in point' 'of fad a measure of the pr:E. , s-eiitrAchilinistrMion; but one which had been pre `r ecrhy tho, Ir - Uught in confOrmatilt to their wish. Whatever flubs, there lore, might belong to this measure; the p: - e:ient ;Xli uisters ‘vere not responsible for them. In Printing the now 13111, he shoal undoubt,Mly ply ery - dite attention to the suggestions which had been throWu out upon the kibjeat, tliongh there Oeitainlywere some to which he .could not assent. However, the Bill would be printed, and cull time given to c'on skier it. - The IriSh Ele6l.lotr Bill, and the Irish Miners Bill, were read a second thud and comniitted or Thurs. day ne)ft. The Report of the Irish Post Road ,A6l was brought up. .I.fpon the Motic.)n to agree to the Ainendments, Mr. GA RR said, he rase for the purpOse of pro posing an Amendment which, be had mentioned when the Bill was ;Oa Committee, and to which he had since given the utmost consideration in Es' power. The object •of his Amendment was to re meet), what appeared to him a very great inequality in theAssessnients for making roads in Ireland, by throwing the expence of making the road upon the County at large, and not upon the particular Baronies through which it runs. It often happened a road ran a long way through one Barony, and A very short way through others, but ti,ley were all equally be nefited by. it, and therefore it was very hard to throw the expellee. -on a particular Barony or Baronies, merely because 'the road happened to run a con siderable way through thern. HC cOnclvided With Diming an ArnendmuAt, the 011.4 of which was, tb throw the expence of , making the ' - road upon .Lhe County at large, and not upon ;he pA:ticular Baronies. Mr. FOSTER said, this qoestion had beep fully argued when the Bill was in the. Committee, when there was a number of Irish Members present, who certainly were better acquainted with the manner of presenting roads in Ireland by Grand Juries than the English Members, and they had all expressed their disapprobation of the Hon. 'Gentleman's proposition. The Hon. .Gentleruan was prevailed up,on in the Complittee to withdraw his clause, and he hoped he would not now persist hi it. The Bill at present gave the,Grand Jury a discretionary powe7 , upon the subject, either to throW the eqence of the road upon the County or the Barony, asap,peared to them utast just ; and it really appeated . to liim better to leave this discretionary power. with the grand Jury, ac cording to the circumstances of each particular case, and not to make a positive regulat,ittn„ 4s the Hon. Gentleman proposed. Mr. STEWART said, there were particular cir cumstances that affeded particular Counties ; and, therefore; lie thought' it would be much better to leave lhe,Grand Juries a discretionary power, than to make one . general law for every case. Mr. MtNAt GliiON expressed a similar opinion. Mr. CARR• said, that ,as the Gentlemen present; who represented Ireland; tid nat approve of liis Amendment, he would withdraw The Repoit was then agreed to, and the Bill or dered to be read a 1.114 tune to-luurrnw if then in grossed. • INDIA Mr. WALLACE, with' a view, as be stated, to show that no blame was imputable to the late Bard of Coutroul for resistin g the prodnetion of c e rt a in Papers on the subject of India, On - the ground that their production would be injurious to the public intere,t, moved that these Papers, comprehending the Correspondence between Lord Wellesley and Colonel Scott, in the , years 1 . 199, 1800-.1, respea ing the eonclud of .the Nabob of Plicte, and which was not already on the Table', should be laid la:•fore the house. Lord MORPETLI objeCted to the Motion upOn the - same grounds which induced, as the Right Hon. Moyer stated,. the late Board of Coutroul to meet the saine motion before.—The part of the corre spondence which \vas withheld contained particu lars relative to the - private , conduCt of the Nabob of ()tide which it-would be. highly improper,. in his opinion; to lay before the public; especially as they related to a Prince at present in amity with this 'Country. The Noble Lord had no objeCtiop to af ford any private information desired. upon this Sob jeet, but he would resist the idea of giving publicity to the:'case to which the motion referred. 111 i .. PAULL animadverted upon the sing ilar ground laid by the Mover of this Propositio: hat although he bad resisted, when in office, tile pro, duaio&of certain Documents, as injurious to ; the public interests, yet still he would press his successors to grant precisely Cie S;Dilf:!. documents. He' was, however, ready to support this-Motion, as he wished the House to have the fullest information relatiVe to the afthirs of India. As to the objections which were. expressed against these' Papers, because they contained some •statements upon the miscondua of the Nabob of Oude, he was prepared to say, 'that he could prove sack miicondriet was the result of oppression, injustice, and tyranny, prafaised towards that Prince. Ilswas idle, therefore, to say, that the real moti;I: fOr refusing these Papers was a .desire to avoid injuring the charaoer or feeling& of that Prince. There were, however, as he. wished the House, to be sensible; several extra&s in the Papers moved for, which had no reference whatever'toth-coadviitt-tif the Nabob of Oude, but which were material to elu cidate some part of the con6ua of Lord Wellesley. , ' WELLESLEY, on the part of his .Noble Relation, desired that nbthing might be brought for , ward which could have' a tendency to injure the Nabob ofOude, even though the produaion of such documents might be somewhat advantageousio his own case. After ,some limiter remarks f) - oin Mr. Calvert, Mr. Halford, and My.' Alexander, Mr. Paull, Sir A. Wellesley, and Mr. Rose, the Motion was withdraw D . ,The SECRETARY at WAR presented certain Ac counts relative to Chelsea Hospital; which were or cleredlo lie on the 'fable. -II~r.PAUL L ask,ed the Noble Lord (Temple) whe ther it was his objeEt to, presS "coming to a final vote upon the Charge agaip,st Lord Wellesley to-rnor row ? Ile Was induced to apply tor information upon this point; as there were several Gentlemen as well as hithself who did not clearly understand the Noble Lord's objeo. It certainly would be rather singular if the NobleLoxd should press for a .final decision. upon, the Charge the very saute day on which evidence respeEtitt'it was to be examined. Lord TEwLe..zeplied 1,14 his object was to pre vent delay in the knvestiptiOp of this business ; .and his Notice simply"vYas, that, if no Motion upon the inbjeet should be tnado tb,-Imorioiv, by any other pAafs'on . ,, ht would del it his apty briug it Ibrward. _ • 7.1161-lon. G...n6man, tlitrefore, having given notice ,of a Minion for to-morrow, hisipurpOse was 'answer ed, and he ineant‘to . "give Way to the Hon, qentle- man. , - • Mr. PNutif. called lo the recolleCtion of the House, that his notice on this subje6l was given 'the day:be -fere the debate took place upon the_ Noble Lord's Motion; and he appealed to the judgment of the House,'Whethen- anydelay in the prosecution of this business was attributable to 'him. Lord TEVTLE presented Petitions from the Mer chants, Planters and Agents of the Island of Jamaica, against the SlaYe Trade 'Abolition, and praying to be heard by Counsel upon the. second reading of the said • Mr. Fox observed, that belneant immediately to move the second reading of ibis Bill ; but, that Abe Petitioners' Counsel might as well be, heard upon the Report. : . The Petitions were ordered' to lie on the Table, as was a Petition to the same effect, presented by Mr. ROSE, from several Ship-owners. The Bill was read aesecond time and committed for Thursday, Mr. Fox stating, that if business pressed on, Thursday, he would move to postpone the, committal of this Bill, till Friday.. - On the motion of Lord TEMPLE, the Thread Lace Bill was ordered to be re-committed to-morrow. 'II.'THORN brought up, the Report of the Committee of SUpply relative to. the grant of . corn-. pensation to MeSSIS, Chalmers, and Cowie; .101 th. wa4 :,IgTM.I to. . . The West, India Auditors" gild was read a third time and passed..' Lord li,Exto.• PETTY save notice of his intentiou to move on Monday for leave to bring it) a Bill for more etfeattally auditing the Public., Accounts of this - Country. , AMERICAN INTIF.RcotiesE BILL. Larci-Ttoll'i.tc mover the order ft - Ar the secoud reading of the American 'lntercourse Bill ; and; upon I the .motion that cennsel should be called ,in on the part of the Petitioners against the said ;I:Tr. /10,$E sorted; that the Petitieners'had thought it better to wave their intention, 'of behig: heard by Counsel at the liar, in the hope that this Bill would be .referred to 'the investigation 'of a Committee above stairs, where their case mint be fully stated and gone into. Without tre'spassing upon the time -of the House. The Right Hon, Gentleman expressed a strong wish that ;Mittisters consent to reAlize the hope of theTetitioners in this respe& i , 'and that, , where so respenable a b6dy of Merchants; Ship (,),woersand Buil l is fipprolchecl the House optin. such an important question, the case they -had to state should at least be heard. After repeating the. staternents which the'Right'Honourabl2 Gentleman had laid before the - Hoese on former stages of this measnre, lie recommended 'that; "if the• Bill-should be persisted in,' the . Americahs should at least be sub ' je6teti to the same duty which Jiritish . shipping in the ,same trade were obliged to pay ; and also that the . exclusive advantages nosegranted•to American ship , ping shotild he removed. This advantage consisted in the Prollibitien r of any of the articles specified in the Ad by any ether than the Ships of the Country in . which such articles grew, which. of course was au. exclusion of ail other than American Shipping. • .In. cipcn(Witiy of the liner)* to our CornMerce. and Marine, whichmust, result from throwing this trade into the heeds eftheAineriteans; the Right Hon. Gen tleman begged the' Rouse to •retiea upon t4c state of . our Shipping. Jo consequence of recent eventm, of , which ad men ritteft be aware, we bad at present vast quantities Or our Shipfiing totally unemployed, lying idle i;i the "l'ilarnoS, and elsewhere. How then could Oentict - ticti reconcile it to their minds, to transfer 'td others a branch of trade in which we employed no -less than 037 Sad in 1 - 3 . 92, and in which we-should emplVtnany more at present;if the trade were con : tined to our own shipping; the Merchants It'ad plenty of vessels teelnd out to engage in this concern, and NV3I) ted only . convoys, with the assurance of a prefe j rence ; that no competition would be allayed unless in cases of emergency. of which the Governors of the several Islands would always ,betite best. judges. If Ministers would agree to - refer the; Bill to a Cren ,niittee above stairs,. lie Wa,4 confident that the whole of the necessary examinations Might be gone thro' .in four days ; 4tel .when the result of that exaMina .tion should be . laid before the House, all parties -1 woeld be notch better' epahled to form a just opi man upon the subject than any,coeldbe'at present. Earl TEMP L E maintained that the Bill so tar2from being disadvantageous to the mercantile and shipping interest of this Conntry, Must, to every person concerned in the West Indies, and in the trade carried on to that quarter, be produaive of the most essential benefits. , The Bill Went to -en-, art s that the . Ports ; should be -open, - not generally, but from time to time, according to the necessity of the . case, as should appear ',.proper to his 'Majesty with the advice of his Privy Council. What. pos-. •sible security, he w 041.1 ask,'could ship-owners here. haCe When thebuSiness 'was, as formerly, at the "dis-' eretion of the 'Governors cif tltc Islands ? 'they could 'be no:jeagea of the ;state of :our markets, nor of the time' of the sailing of 'oar convoys ; neither could they judge if the relief to he eetibrded from couiriy --could -be sufficient to meet the wants experienced, there. What security, however, had . they not by the present Bill 1 lied they not the pledge of that duty, which his Majesty's- Mini sters owed to the Country, that while they endea voured to fereseetbe wants of the Colonies, and de vised the best means of supplying what might be ne ce4sary, they would do so with every regard te the interest of the Ship-Owners of this Country ? Would not they themselves have an opportunity of going to Ministers, and sheaving them that from the quantity -of tonnage cleared out to the plantations there was - 'no necessity, or that they ought not to open the Ports ? The Bill, therefore, gave a security to the Ship-Owners,, which it was utterly impossible they could have in any other way. • Sir C. PRICE declared, that after the most anxi ous inquiry as to the effeCts to be produced by the Bill, it was the opinion of that respeelable body of the shipping interest for whom he appeared, that the Bill would be produdive of the most mischievous effeds. • It would have 'the necessary consequence,. too, of throwing many of our seameia into the scr- Jvice of America, where they would easily procure themselves to be screened wider certificates of their 'being American Cititens. All he wished was, that the Bill shOuld-'go to a Committee up stairs., ,He was about to'coitt ludo with' a Motion - to- this effect, when Air. Rost explained, that lie had already, web the same obje&, tuned- that the. Bill Ce'rgael a se cond time this day se'unight. Sie Wm. YOUNG SUppOrtCd, the Bah Ho strongly inculcated the urgency ,of attending to; the necessi ties of the West India Islands, and .shewed that they . could not trust to supplies which might be afforded them 'probably twice a year. Sir W. CURTIS opposed the Bill, and maintain ed that the West-India Islands peere. reghlaiis;.and. sufficiently supplied from this Country. He dis liked the Bill because it declared that we could not, in time of War, supply our own West-India Colo nieS. He, on the part of the -shipping interest of London, pledged himself that, if this 8711 were de parted froM, they would employ their capital,. . and the shipping they possessed, which were at present rotting, in carrying on this trade. Sir FRANCIS IMRING denied that British Met' chants could be found ready to supply the Colonies in _the way the Hon. Bart. who.sPoke last -bad stated 'They could not do so on account of the very great' expence. They must have three voyages—one from _ this Country to America, in ballast ; the second, from America to the West Indi es , with a cargo corn- paratively,nothing, and whiCh the freight would ex ceed in value by five or six times the amount ' and from this second voyage he b e li eve d- there walhard-' ly ever an instance of a vessel returning to this Country, Mr. 4ldermaif PRINSEP had no ObjeClion to leaving the exercise of -a discretion with Ministers, . convinced that they would - not abtese it. There were; • however, clauses in the Bill which alarmed him. One in particular; where the importation into the West India Islands was extended to all goods what ever, and to ma ?raja ures a word which he thought ought to be oniitted,' as alt the-Islands could require under the-Bill was lumber. By another Claus e , a - liberty of exportation w 4 given, extending to sugars, which he thought ought 'to be omitted. if these alterations were underatoOd to be agreed to,he should pot object to the Bill, otherwise he muss oppose its further progress. Lord TEmto,n said, that generally. speaking, he saw no objeCtion to,. the. alteration proposed by the Hon. Member, - -- Mr. PERCIF:IL agreed that these alterations ;would render the Bill less - •ohjeEtionable, but still such objeCtions did remain as rendered. it impossible • : for-liimetOrtgretetoit.. He should be sorry to set op , - 'his own authority against that of ,the Han. Baronet opposite (Sir F. Barieg), whose opinions on every question of the kindhekneW: to, heeirtitled to such"; respeti: But all that was meant by the- Motion of his'llight Hon, Friend (Mr. Apse) vas,` to asVertain 'in a Committee thevery -fad which the Honourable, Baronet Ii i 4 alledired, 'The Noble Lord opposite had I read 4 clause in the Bill, purporting that the. inter-', course should only :be &maimed in case of pece.l- • and that from time to time. He held in his' . I hand;however, an Order by the Secretary of State (Mr. Windham) which seemed not altogether to san6tion this statement ; authorizing the suspension; during the'WhOle of the War. So that ,it was it .vain for the House to expea that any inquiry would' be made by Ministers as to the necessity cf the melt., sure, or to place any reliance on the exercise. of their discretiOn. He Considered. the measure to beunne cessary, in as far: as it had, for the last :thirteen - years;--been-sufficiently-provided for by the Omer ! tiers of the Islands being invested with a species of discretionary power, -which, being on the spot, they : must be Opposed best qualified to exercise, Btit moreover, heconsidered 'it as highly impolitic.---e What'was the -plain language of the Bill y but that ourselves could not supply our Colonies in t;tue t ,of war ?—And was not this t e lli n g Atherica she might do with •us what she pleased ?—Was, this. • too the best possible time for us to take such 'a step, when we knew that there was a spirit in Ame rica not over' favourable to our interest `,them so at such a period would, in his opinion, be extremely unwise. after the. A& giving power to the President to act as occasion might require, we were to yield Any thing which we had' - formerly stood up for, ,it might be attributed. to.,a rnotiee ot , , ..fear, or conscious dependence on their assistauue, On the grounds therefore that the Bill was neifter 'necessary nor politic, he felt that it Could - not conk„; out of a Committee in such a shape as to be palatable to him. . , The ATTORNEY-GI:2I'ERN, argued, that the: e were no manuia6tures carried from America to tht, colonies,,. Clot only, --food for the Slaves, and a , few other articles which could not be supplied by Great Britain. The law had been viblated during a, period of thirteen.years, and 'at the discretion of the Go *veruors of the Colonies. It was said;, that, lately. Government had 'recovered from --its trance, and . that some alteration was to have been. proposed.— • lint Ad go on in this course of violating the law was admitted to be, getierally. speaking, a metestrous . proceeding. It was even contrary to the oath of the Governors, who, in exercising this discretion, were committing something like perjury, and he was sur prised to hearhis Learned Friend contend, that this . was a better.system . than the one now oroposed,, 7 -1, They wanted to postpone the further proceeding 9rl this Bill fat- seven days, and why ?--For the sake of Inquiry. Au - Inquiry into what F—Nci. Incet,i,ry had -been thought of for thirteen years, when 811. was at the discretion of the Governors, who might open the Ports a mouth before our Shipa had. • rived at the Colonies, and by that means render the out-fits - almost useless. And yet .the Honourable Baronet under the Gallery (Price), the Repxsenta tive of the Shipping Interest, preferred that to th'-- systenr-=which did what ?- , -;;Permit ihe American Trade ?—No ; but merely enable the Privy Council' ~cd prevent it when it was pecessary. The neces sity 'had been shewn by the practice of thirteen years, and, the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Rose), with his great experience,, his great knoW ledge, and his great attachment to. public principles, had permitted it to go on for thirteen years. But now he, began to find out that all this was very dangerous. But' where had the danger been fur thirteen years ?. As to the Ship-owners, they. • might have been, heard - by their' Counsel—and if they 'could, as , they said, supply the Colonies, why did they not do it ?—There was nothing in this Bill to prevent their'. If there was, it was certainly 'rpore then he knew,, for he had read .the and saw no such' thing. Great Britain could not, in faet e supplylhe Colonies.' He then went on to state, that the Nevigation Laws had been partially, and flu- a time, suspended in se . veral instances—such, as the trade. with the Cape. of Good Hope. He also contended, that there were