The Sun. — London, England, 1847-05-11 00:00:00

ch was Ltr this m they r rates. rat IoTIS o littiC nu , be of this muting ,n CORI rs, for in should be ground. poor-law condition. which the ,wo . t hirds idlords?--- ,y thug" —that was s ly one of v thought ( Hear) e e ffect Of a in t hat ld Lere watt d to m ake the alter ed th t eta in he Ltio ,t be ectly from land they it you'd and social of in de ; bu t • , ttelY annt parish,it un iversa l ' i r Lord cprobabliet s t here. „„ thts "' "r for asure • refill to ht Ind wig - a a obtai l l pogitiOnt' laud well: ► Engl 2ne was that to create tr? ;OEMiest the same the Irish i uld deny , let them rely upon Was ermanent were the Ifidential, mploying was noto the fact. the land' xisted in 'expect t o He di d Ist s uch a .oprietors genre of an d to o f their [het with is t to the (gear.) yoUld be absolu te pr i ma ' property ld cre ate a class [ s object. he soc:* l effecti n g h e oecu; the lan' enu• to s a l, that bly d it wo to In" nstanceo ,rinciple be to ld to make was the e of h is from on t he in this be I . Ireland; e ereen . o flak e " ," T ema.. alit ow eaa the o alone had the means - ---- --_ t 4 iv_ eans of giving employment, should be induced di n g e e n l Ployment by a knowledge that a proper divi ir,._ of: thy burden would full upon his own shoulders •.*(eatt of another man's, he asked them to affirm that 11:: ngtli 7 n uotice that, from the E ri t ricdo- He proposed in the amendment of which he thu s Ist of January, 1859, at will should become liable fo the same condi as those who had at present permanent leases. If its that were . sound, the qu.stion then came as to li e did .1 application—and wheth rit was a safe . one? not apply be left it at once—he applied it prospectively; it to the tenants atthe landlords forthe iix , . • will ants to . ra `_Lwo years and a half to enter into this new ar auVrnent. He knew the popular feeling upon this up on Ho knew the declamations that were made i tt r n !I the hard-heartedness and griping hands of the Irish .11 ulords. Ile knew the indiscriminating, sweep- Ito. condemnation which this country was so much all things to cast upon Ireland and upon amp pgs Irish. Ile knew how ready people were to heat the could not stop to pick the few grains of _ l!t from. the bushel of chaff, and that they could not bi u::!iuhtre in , c, the exc-ptions in individual instances. He dire y ard that the landlords of Ireland were totally in pacitient to anything except collecting., in the most ra th , us Manner, every thin , ' that they could screw from e bard eo •of . that th b h but he also knew ,riiings t..sir tenants ; 1 4 ,, i eY were proceeding to legidatt! for the purpose of 0 ; 1 4 4; upmi the landlords those hardAtips which they of Irish them with inflicting. If such were the character j,trish la ndlords—if it were the fact that there were th-Lances bf such short-sighted capactty—if they thought from",eY could protect the tenant by this tegulati n ne g r • • •• f l il. d if they thought that th e IPing spirit o ant or s— ip, Same lan,llord, who had the power of exl . cting the tferinost farthing from the tenant, and screwing out of 11.0 411 everyh, shilling and every penny that he could drag tha t ln — 4 l by any process whatever—did they believe the• such i . a landlord would not protect himself against co :: Legislation by such an increase of rent as would Said r that possible amount of rate ? The that the tenant had not got the money i„„ ° P,aY the rate, and that they could not pay it. The it iv " , was that the tenants did p a y it—(Hear, hear)—it do al by them it was now paid, and all that they a . Was to receipt for so much rate as part p asiten produce a the t for so much rent; cou ld they believe that if, as the part of the h Y said, there was this spirit on . 6 °4 °, 4 peasant to bid for land at whatever price it could the obtained—if there was such a determined spirit on l - "e Part of the landlord to exact the uttermost farthing i ' V ic ' they entertain the delusion, that by saying, that ,Te landlord sho landlord the rate, they would relieve `"e tenant?—the would exact the utmost rent, Zilch th e t enan t wou ld pay. so that there would be so Zilch less rate collected. They might fancy that th e y • 1 'slieved• the tenant, but in the meantime they did away With the inducement to the tenant to employ labour. 44 . 0 would, perhaps, be met by the assertion, that the universal resistance u nless would meet with an no -nl ess it was altered. That was a confession which w ° verninent would m ike without being degraded—that all law and he -- a confession which was fatal to ,_ _ t t rusted r that in that House it would not be brilogh t . orward as an argument.—(Hear, hear.) If 0 1_ Wet° believed, that the principle was one f 800rUpd l egislation, they should be firm in the application 11l it ' and the prospective application would enab e a parties to that he arrange it between themselves; but he hoped should not undergo what he considered the de gradation of hearing, in that House, as an argument, wils.atic they would adopt a principle not sound in itself, and hh w ould not answer in England, because there was :Passive resistance which they dare not encounter. He attlot aware that he need trespass further upon their wt.usips' attention in advocating the amendment of tch t. ea had giveu notice. He bad shortly put forth what he conceived to be its recommendation—its envou i&entent of labour—and that which could be fatal to ".' rejection, namely,in future it brought the in terest that of the landlord and tenant to one dead level; and wo e Id remove that • m which threatened m mass of pauperism lable r esources of the country, an d th e only avai . as of providing for which was the diminution of that to • . ot ,„, e itY with which the tenant in Ireland clung to the —ll P a tlon f his of land, and the este % lull 0 wretched plot from eut of an independent body of labourers, apart was ado the farmers. He did not think, unless his measure ''' adopted, they couldprevent that which Was actin 1a gas a continual flame in this country agai •nst s o Lad---uarnely, the influx of a large body of labourers. 80 long as the rate of wages was higher here than there, them Would that influx take place. He did not ask tz fro to consider the measure with selfish eyes, for their Lo. Would be visited on their own shoulders, and a retri :letive infliction upon this country. Let them consider * (l " . _ question as judges deciding a question of - life or /.7._ath, and he asked no more for the Irish landlord and ..aribthe Irish labourer. It was such a measure, and such "„__ .oeasure only, that could be effectual for this country yr,f.s.r Ireland. --(Cheers.) B,ll;uhe Marquis of LANSDOWNE (who during his er e ,, e ,ell was frequently quite inaudible) said that he di tt g e ' r o venture to state to their Lordships that of all the fru_ enees which they had had in the course of that ar 4neelst on this important bill, the difference which the 4 1 , s t : di ll, eat of his Noble Friend had made was the the,,insPortant. lie said that not in reference to il l thvarticular consideration adverted to at the outset tip ort e s Peoch of the Noble Lord, on an observation made th at the Previous occasion. He was far from thinking tw o tie e°o sideration arising out of the priviliges of the Yet, le uses of Parliament, ought to be disregarded. • -- ` ll g that subject of a subsequent consider ation , as a consider he did wish to meet the Noble Lord fairly, and or an discuss this amendment upon its own merits, exclusive t „,_ . _ - ,Y external consideration. The Noble Lord had i ll p 7ea that he had no hesitation in stating that the re- On of this clause would prove disastrous in its con - -equences to both countries ; yet, he as confidently be stated, that it was its adoption which . would to Producti ve of these effects to Ireland , acid i t,ile success of the measure, which he was justi fied i n sa yi n g, was approved of by a great number of their L.)rdships. Those of their Lordships Who were most opposed to allowed many of the objections to the clauses which were . most objectionable to pass without dividing upon tr, and 'Lord 1 i elf said that he was one, and he even the Noble i ea, desirous ofthis Billpassing into a law. He was h edged their Lordships to consider what was the cha racter of this Bill, and that it required extensive ma chinery to be created, for the assistance of the board of guardians. The principles of the present Bill were en tirely c onsonan t w i t h th e principle of a measure adopted Y hch, theirduring Lordships five or six years ago, and whi That time had been found to work well.—(Cheers.) The effect of this measure would be to throw th t e ea b d u o r- t. i mposing of the rating entirely upon the tenant, ms ' e , a 'Posing• it equally upon all classes. He asked the Noble Lord — fleet a little before he imposed burdens Of thisto re upon the tenants of the country. The Noble ,sort hadstated that they ought to allow them _°,llle Lord . "Ives to be influenced by the impression which any a lettsure was likely to produce. He thought that such a • • Prlnciple was not calculated to assist any Goverment ir k d for the ures —for some regar • carrying out its meas , , was 44?reEsio i that any measure was likely to produce, %)solutely indispensable —(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had stated, that the burden would be dis • rlbuted equally by his measure, and which would ' ri "e, much of the odium attached to the 'l'l l l ' t ~,tY the proceedings of the Government. s 0 5. ,, - —l4 out did not attach itself to the measure in con e•s-eoce • •the Government. They stated that th 01 any fault of try e Y Were about was no to impose a burden upon the conn ote, !Ind nat with any degree lure, and it only remained for the Government to trotect the tenant against any undue exercise of power elle landlord. A new system of valuation of the land a ‘l been introduced into the country, and with that and other remedies he thought that sufficient good would be produced without adding to this measure—(which they the with sited to be atten d e d some degree of uncertainty,) further danger incurred by the motion of the No b l e ..) Lord. It was the desire of the Noble --e,ru, 18 he stated, to conciliate the people, and yet he a tt em pt e d it by a ff or ding a further facility for the infliction of taxation of the people. He b ad complained of the imperfection of the measure, but the imperfection of any law was no reason for departing it from the good principle which it might contain, evil which trying measures which aggravatetmermtey. It was upon these grounds, d thelaw was intended the conviction that the amendment and from would render the whole scheme of legislation useless, that he asked their Lordships to refuse their assent to it. After a few words from Lord WALSINGHANI, Lord MONTEAGLE said that, feeling as strongly upon this subject as he did, he must be allowed to state why it was that he supported this amendment. lie had formerly stated, regard to this measure, with that the led astray by supposing public at large were frequently _, . , that what worked well in one country must necessarily Work well in another ; and therefore they argued that because the poor-law answered in England, it should equallyhis statements would apply in Ireland. Many of Indeed be i na ppli ca bl e , if th e s tate of things in Ireland 'Were analogous to those in En land. Eng lish The Government W ould find, however, that if they introduced the poor-law without modifications. they were enacting rh;iir the part of very unwise legislators.—(Hear.) Lord ships should take it into consideration that in . En gland the poor-law rate bad been recognised from time marnetnorial as binding upon all classes, but in Irelandtbc law was altogether new, and likely, therefore , to be rewed w i t h di strust. Th ere was great difference in the la Vosition of a tax for the first time and the levying, coa tax w hi ch had been l ong i n ex i s t ence , and long re gniseJ by t h e var i ous c l asses w ho paid their portions se th e saw,. Of all times, the present was the least ad apte d for the collection of a tax which, compared w the — l e ; other taxes now levied in the country, was as .a ine we V it of a mountain compared with the weight of -°4e-hill. Suppose that an alteration were to be Wade, from asytem of out-door relief to one of the oor , relief, or s a change in the amount of .taxation of the country from 10s. in the pound tois. 1 . I . : the Pound, then there might be a probability of get "ng the lesser amount collected, but when it was 1)1-9- Posedt., to ra i se the ansoant of taxation from Is. to 10,. in " e Pouuti, it was evident that t h e l arger amou nt could never be collected. He was not sanguine as to the suc cess of the measure even with the clause as proposed by the Noble Lord. He would much rather leave the whole responsibility of the measure in the hands of the Go vernment, so that they should not at any time be able to turn round upon those Noble Lords who supported the la use, and ascr ib e its failure to the operat i on o f tie clause which they had introduced. He thought that the I: h riociple of the clause was, however, a sound one, and h . ° y difficulty be felt in supporting it arose from 11 ; belief of the impossibility of carrying out the mea• sure before their Lordships. t . arl. of HARDWICKE considered that the opera 'on of the poor-la w h a d , i n Eng l and, b een the means o f rdlog much benefit ; b u t was i t to b e sup p os ed fur a moment, that if th e poor ' s rates h a d been paid by the landl or d s alone, that this country t would have e ver r i sen to such a height of prosperity, or b een enabled as i t then was to assist in ameliorating the mighty distress which overhung both this country '~.ti: TILE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, MAY 11, 1847. and Ireland. The Noble Lord opposite had stated that the Government were anxious to give the landlords an interest in the working of the poor-law; hot was it to be supposed that the landlords, who paid two thirds of the rates, should be considered as parties Neely to assist in the beneficial operation of the measure ; his only object would very naturally be to reduce the expenditure. Ile felt it his duty, therefore, to consent to the amendment of his Noble Friend ; and he thought that in doing so, he was acting with a due regard to the justice, the pros perity, and the safety of the people of that country, Earl ST. GERMANS said the Noble Lord who had just sat down had advanced a line of argument in respect of the ex (ilficio guardians founded upon an erroneous view of the English Poor law. But he could not avoid adverting to the attack Which the Noble Earl had made when he remarked upon him, as the bearer of messages from the House of Commons. He might disclaim this at once and be done with it. He had not been the bearer of messages from the House of Commons, but he did think proper to mention the opinion of a Noble Friend of his who had been lately efficially connected with Ireland, and who had not habitually acted with a party ; he did think it well to zeention the opinion of that Noble Lord. But to advert to the argument of the Noble Earl—He had overstated the proportions of the rate levied, as he would find by reports which lay upon their Lordships' table. The rite levied by the Bill was by far the most equable, placiree the grasping and the liberal landlord upon a level, for the tenant was entitled, out of every pound of rent which he paid, to half the rate which was levied upon him. The Noble Lord then reverted to the debates which occurred both before their Lordships and in the Commons when the criginal Irish poor-law was intro duced, and quoted at length from the opinions expressed by several Members of the Lower House on the 5/. clause, all which, he said went to make it more stringent upon the landlord ; nay, more, a Com mittee of which the Noble Lord (then Mr. Spring Rice) was Chaim:lan, went so far as to recommend the imposi 'ion of the whole rate upon the landlords. He greatly doubted as to the policy of the amendment, believing that it would deprive the Bill entirely of any chance of success. The Earl of 'MALMESBURY said he would explain, as briefly as possible, why he would support the Noble Lord's amendment. He was an English landlord, as some of their Lordships knew, without one acre of land in Ireland, and without any experience whatever of that country. He had, therefore, hitherto refrained from debates on Irish affairs ; but on this occasion a great principle was in question, and in that principle he was interested. It was a principle which the members of her Majesty's Government had adopted and affirmed in the English poor-law, which they bad produced, brought in, and p asse d. They affirmed then that the oc cupying tenant ought to pay the rates. The principle of the amendment was, therefore, no new principle, and if Ministers were opposed to it, he asked them why they did not abandon the poor-law existing in England, and enact a new law containing a new principle. But what would be the consequences, he said, of the present amendment ? On this head reference had been made to the disorders that had been stirred against the payment of tithes to the Protestant clergy. He, however, denied the an a lo g y of the two cases ; they were entirely different, as the history of religion alone might evince to them, and one allusion had been made to legislating for the country as it was. There was a sense of that phrase in which he agreed ; but he could not advise, that to legislate for a country as it was instead of what it ought to be, was not the way to improve and benefit that country. As long as they refused to assimilate the poor-law of England and Ireland, so long would discord continue ; they might be twins, but they never would be twin sisters. Earl WICKLOW had always maintained the princi ple that the rates should be paid by the occupier and not by the tenant ; but although he supported such an amendment at the time the poor-law was passed, he considered that the present moment was most inexpe dient to introduce it. It would cause muck bitterness between landlord and tenant, and would materially pre vent the proper and deei , -able carrying out of the mea sure. These were sufficient reasons to induce him to vote against the clause. The Archbishop of DUBLIN rose amidst loud cries of " question" to address their Lordships. He should not support the amendment of the Noble Lord ; but at the same time he admitted that his principles were right and sound.—(llear, hear.) Still he believed that the plan he proposed could not, in the present state of things in Ireland, be carried out. He was most desirous that the Bill should have a fair trial, and he was most anxious, therefore, not to throw difficulties in the way of its working. He thought, as he had said, that the clause proposed a healthy and a correct system of rating ; but still, in the present state of Ireland, he conceived that the rate must after all be paid by the landlords. But he feared that the poor tenants of Ireland were not either in a fit condition of purse or mind to be induced to believe it they paid the rates, that they would not be called upon to pay them again. He cited a case in which 1,6001. a year was saved by the guardians of a parish by the adoption of a better and more direct mode of paying the rates. Although he considered that the plan of the tenants paying the rate was the best, the wisest, and most judicious that could be adopted, he could not, in the present state of Ireland, consent to the insertion of such a clause into the Bill. Lord REDESDALE said he could hardly reconcile the extraordinary argument which had been brought against the proposition of his Noble Friend, because they were told that the principle was correct, but that from the f g a ir n ,reaa d tnme i t t oebdry e e t i o u h hl safee ti n em o on t ari nns moreat ws te h l i y elh% b sii e hmfy. c p,r a l rieirnitseahtdaatntoei instance eah ' ne3t, p. N ha i s t t a a e i ° c ol t r s l could e l d h d a in the pounce was deducted on account of the rates which he would have to pay, where was the hardship that would be imposed upon him, and where was the ex traordinary advantage which the landlords obtain— Much had been said, and, in fact, many Noble Lords had argued the measure as if that was the sole ground of the measure, namely, the immigration of poor from Ire land to Liverpool ; but if they wanted to keep them in Ireland they must afford them some encouragement by providing them the means of lucrative employment and by making it to the interest of the landlords to afford them the employment they stood so much in need of. Much might be done in this respect by leaving the onus of the rates on the landlord and charging him a smaller rent. He would thus be spurred to use exertions to im prove his soil and to realise greater profits. In Scotland the rates were paid by the tenants, and the greatest ad vantage was derived from the plan there adopted. Lord ROSEBERY explained the nature of the past and present poor-law of Scotland. Lord CL ANCARTY said that, although he entirely concurred in the clause prolapsed by the Noble Lord, and was convinced that they were indispensably neces sary, he yet noticed that as the House had not yet gone the length of stating, that they would confide a discre tionary power to the boards of guardians, or that the first clause should be carried into effect—that no assist ance on either side would he expected from him. He should leave the matter to the House unaided by any vote of his The measure was in the details inconsistent, as those clauses which referred to the system of relief to be given were temporary, while the provisions for rating were of a permanent character. The existence of these two provisions in one measure was an inconsistency which he could not feel himself justified in supporting. He felt .much reluctance in withholding his vote, but still upon the present occasion he felt it to be his duty to do so. Lord STANLEY said that there had been, no doubt, in that discussion much which had given h l m the deepest pain and anxiety. There was not one of their Lord ships who in the course of that discussion had an nounced their determination to vote against his amend ment, who had questioned the soundness of the principle upon which it was founded. The kind ness with which their Lordships had listened to him that evening would be a strong inducement to him not to trespass upon their attention fcr any length of time, yet he must still bring a few points under the attention of their Lordships. It had been stated that the Irish Poor-law had for the last five or six years worked well, but what was the Irish Poor-law?—(Hear. hear.) It had been during that time strictly confined to relief within the workhouse and to the destitute poor. His argument was that it was the occupier of land in Ireland who had the power of employing labour, and as it was by the employment of the poor that the poor-rate could be kept down, some inducement must be given to them to reduce it as much as possible. Ho would sub mit that point to their Lordships, and also that of the principle of out-door relief, for in the course of the de bate those arguments had remained untouched. He felt most deeply that they were about to adopt for a permanent legislation a mischievous and a dangerous principle, and when they laid down this law for Ireland they gave it a mischievous principle for its guidance and operation. Reference had been made to the poor-law of Scotland, where there could be no comparison, for out-door relief was not known to the Scotch law, and the landlord and tenant might make any agreement they pleased with reference to which of them should pay the rate charged, while it was a serious infractionof the law to do so in Ireland. He regretted that he should be compelled to differ from so many of those with whom he had ever acted, and he yet more deeply lamented the language and tone which had been used on this occasion. Ile regretted that the majority of their Lordships' House were opposed to the principle which he wished to introduce in the Bill. Whatever might be the fate of this question, he could assure their Lordships that no personal consideration would prevent him from doing his duty. He trusted that those who had done him the honour to support him on this question, and whose sen timents coincided with his own, would not think that he exercised an unwise discretion in not giving their Lord ships the trouble of an unnecessary division. He should, however, feel it his duty, for fob m's sake, and for that only, to move this amendment on bringing up the report ou the Bill. He would do this in his own justification, and in order that it might appear upon the journals of the House that this amendment had been made. The Archbishop of DUBLIN explained. 'The Marquis of CLANRICARDE denied that the a(dlp‘:::sLuerehiol would principle reeoddth nkoamot ,ttv c dtohe o oes ttbe i a t lye e akT contended ettEdnihai principlese Aae d al taGna r for tdgi by ,ehvezeEwormt; hNimaeai t i cooe h otbvsio e rel phieodt N pet lot o %:trov b ohtafi r l uis e tdshi t thieLh measuret adayeoptrtpßoodheiii appeared oppositelopalrrueosdhouse tnwa og and dsht w haohi a vps e ; , y d on in itsb ynpresentthe er Noble heard sohbablaeepp law.er rei Lord CAMPBELL said, that in all his yb e ed x r p oew e p r no ie r i t i e c d e wasmotion cloiknevinthceadt that just moved e dd r in the Irish noroeorp:d)dsreetiientdneatfnsioahhndree he e English Parliament the f i o t state at thatt e w a i s n i a the whichthe rfirstiliet couldt l a s t t a o B t h h e i e l l y p s a li s fi s o l e l u d d l d ina four clauses of this Bill two were limited in duratio n, ' and two were left so far unfinished that they werewit out limitation,. reminding him very forcibly of Sir Walter Scott's Melrose by moonlight. Buttress and buttress alternately seemed framed of ebon and ivory. There appeared to be a strange misunderstanding be tween the Noble Lords on this side, who opposed this measure, and the Noble Lord opposite, fOr T, bile one pro posed to limit the operation of the measur. to the I,t i J im an i u te a d ry t , o l l B B 4, s 9 o ,. the other proposed moved, that that t i h t e sh op o e u r ld atio b n e Lord MONTEAGE of the clauses authorising out-door relief to the able fiborsdtieodf psaonrusahroyulldBb49e.limited (as we understoo th) d soe ) ud t l o dt t h h ba e et insertedh e T h o ieausiclause Marquisitihnlimiting itßi o ni f lgl Lft for re Nt the Di operationnOflVrmNaoEt if t tn h h o e e At hpcerto House;ps and at the time of bringing up the report the Government would feel themselves at perfect liberty to adopt any course which they might think proper with respect to that subject. The Berl of WICKLOW complained that the Noble Lord had adopted the amendment which he had pro posed to move, and he hardly knew what course he was now to adopt. He thought the only course for him to pursue, would be to bring forward his amendment, when the amendmeat of his Noble Friend had been disposed cf; After a few words from Earl FITZWILLIAM, and Earl GREY, The Archbishop of DUBLIN said that he thought the object of the amendments of the Noble Lord was to make one portion of the Bill of a temporary, End the other, of a permanent character ; he had always ex pressed opinions uflavourable to a system of out-door relief to the able-bodied poor, and it way because he entertained these le -b, portion l unfavourable , idill ol eould b i t o ihen n iovio s : sloiial.lniil:ateegtdomnohpiotenotruta‘te,hiol.pro posedvyerr e that a t t he th ab t character a ll, n c u t t e r h ; e n w g h , i ) l t e a t n h e e w principle, should be fl Ir considered lisTu A as T pAr t m h a o n u lc g t t . it nothing The Marquis of more than fair that the system of out-door relief for the able-bodied poor should be allowed a trial before the measure was made a permanent one. After a short discussion, the clause was agreed to. After some desultory conversation, the House re sumed, and the report was ordered to be brought up on Friday next. Their Lordships then adjourned, at a quarter past eleven o'clock. HOUSE OF G'O4IIMONS. May 10. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock. GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY. Mr. GISBORNE moved, pursuant to notice, that it be an instruction to the Committee on the Great North ern Railway (Deviations between London and Grant ham) Bill, to entertain the petition of the Ambergate, Nottingham, Boston, and Eastern Junction Railway Company, under their common seal. After some observations from Mr. Estcourt, Sir Wm. Heathcote, Mr. Greene, Mr. Aglionby, and Mr. Strutt, the motion was withdrawn. SOU TH-EASTERN RAILWAY (NORTH KENT). Mr. O. STANLEY moved the third reading of the South-Eastern Railway (North Kent line) Bill. General FOX moved, pursuant to notice, to alter the 11th clause as follows :—And be it enacted, that nothing contained in this Act, or in the Acts herein cited or re• ferred to, shall extend to authorise the company [with out the consent of the principal officers of her Majesty's Ordnance, or their successors, signified in writing under the hand of the secretary of the said principal officers for the time being] to carry the said intended line of railway nearer to the fortifications of Chatham than a line six hundred yards from the counterscarp of Prince Edward's Bastion, and which line shall be marked out and submitted for the approval of the Master-General of her Majesty's Ordnance and the Inspector-General of Fortifications, immediately after the passing of this Act, and that the same shall be constructed to the satisfaction of the said Master- General of her Majesty's Ordnance and the Inspector- General of Fortifications, at the cost and charges of the said company. After a few observations the clause as amended was agreed to, and added to the Bill, which was read a third time and passed. SOUTH-EASTERN RAILWAY (STROOD TO MAIDSTONE). This Bill was read a third time and passed, on the motion of Mr. 0. STANLEY. * ( - ) - 6'ili-EASTERN RAILWAY (MID KENT AND DIRECT 'TUNBRIDGE). Mr. 0. STANLEY moved the third reading of this Bill. _ . Mr. R. HODGSON moved, pursuant to notice, that the clause granting five years for the compulsory pur chase of land be altered to three years. After some short discussion the motion was with drawn, and the Bill read a third time and passed. REPORTS. The reports on the following Bills were brought up and agreed to:— ~ Belfast Port and Harbour. Caledonian Railway (Glasgow, Garnkirk, and Coat bridge Railway Branch to Glasgow and Station). Cork ;nd Bandon Railway. Cork, Biackrock, and Passage Railway. Dublin Consumers Gas. Eastern Union and Ipswich and Bury St. Edmund's Railways Amalgamation. Edinburgh Markets and Customs. General Terminus and Glasgow Harbour Railway Branches. Great Western Railway (Branch to join the West Lon don Railway, Widening and Enlargement of West London Railway, and Branches to Hammersmith, and to join the London and South-Western Railway near Lambeth). Glasgow, Barrhead, and Neilston Direct, any Glasgow Southern Terminal Railways Amalgamation. Ipswich and Bury St. Edmund's Railway (No. I—Ex tension to Yarmouth). Leith Harbour and Dock Dues. Lynn and Ely Railway (Deviation and Lynn Docks). Runcorn Gas. Ityde Improvement. Sheffield Markets. Southampton and Dorchester Railway (Wearmouth Branch). Waterford, Wexford, Wicklow, and Dublin Railway (No. 1). Wilsontown, Morningside, and Coltness Railway (Branches to Benhar Coal• works and Edinburgh and Glasgow Turnpike-road). SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time, and or dered to be committed:— Limerick Docks and Harbour. New Zealand Company. C )NSIDERATION OF REPORTS. The reports on the following Bills were further con sidered and agreed to:— Bingley Gas. British Commercial Insurance Company (No. 2). Eastern Union and Hadleigh Junction Railway (Sale to the Eastern Union Railway Company). Ewell Rates. Kingston-upon-Thames Small Tenement.' Nolverhurripton Rates. ROYSTON AND CAMBRIDGE EXTENSION RAILWAY. Mr. GOULBURN moved that it be an instruction to the Committee on the Royston and Cambridge Exten sion Railway Bill, to entertain the petition of the Uni versity of Cambridge against the said Bill. He said the petition had been rejected because it did not contain at its commencement the short title of the Bill. Mr. BERNAL objected to the use of the word " en tertain," and suggested that the Committee should be simply required to consider the petition. Sir W. HEATHCO rE opposed the motion, and con sidered the House ought not to alter a rule, compliance with which was exceedingly easy, as its wording was simple and explicit. Mr. BROTHERTON said, during the present session many petitions had come before him, -in which the short title of the Bills to which they referred were omitted, and in order that the expense and injury might be saved to the parties, he had himself written the short titles of the 13illa at the head of them. As this occurred through the laxity of Parliame n t ary agents , an d as t h e ru l e l a id down by the House should not be departed from, he should oppose the motion. Mr. GOULBURN withdrew his motion. DISTILLATION FROM GRAIN. Mr. BROTHERTON presented several petitions from various parts of this country against distillation from grain. creased by 30s. a quarter, and that there was every probability of a further increase. He wished, under such circumstances, to know whether it was the inten tion of the Government to prohibit the use of grain in distilleries for a limited period? Lord J. RUSSELL said, that in the absence of any notice on this subject he was not prepared to answer that question, and he should therefore take time to do so. Ile might, however, generally state that he should bring before the House o❑ an early day a measure for the further suspension of the duties on corn. DISCOUNT ON LOANS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then rose to bring before the House the present monetary condition of the country. Ile said—Mr. Speaker, lam not aware that I need add much mere— Mr. HUME—Speak up.—(Laughter). The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —I need not add much more to what I stated to the House on Friday last as to the intention of the Government with regard to the present state of the money market in this country. I stated on Friday night that I proposed to submit to this Committee a re soluii, n enabling the Government to allow interest by way of discount on all sums of money made by the contractors or contributors to the loan, in anticipation of instalments due on a future day. That is the resolution which I propose, Sir, to put into your hands. I stated then the allowance which the Government is prepared to make, and I also proposed to state the amount of the discount which we are pre pared to allow. But perhaps it is necessary, for the satisfaction of the House, that I should make some additional statement by which all depressions and all panics may be avoided, and by which the Government securities may be admitted as available in the market. I am free to allow that I did not apprehend, and that I could not be aware of the high price which corn would attain, and the p ressure w hi c h will necessarily be felt in all commercial circles. The natural consequence of the high prices of corn is to create a con siderable pressure on th e s p r i ng s of commerce. By this measure I hope to prevent that pressure, and I feel cer tain, that if rightly used, it will prevent any such result as that which many have anticipated. I am quite aware that by the measure which I am about to propose, that the result will be to impose a great additional burden upon the public, Hon. Members are aware that it has been necessary, from the high rate of interest in the commer cial market, to elevate the price of all securities, and the consequence has been that Exchequer-bills suffered a great depreciation, and it was necessary to raise their value in order to give a greater facility to trade. This is necessary, mot only for the transactions of mercantile men, but for the interest of those artisans whom they employ. I believe, therefore, this measure is absolutely necessary for the credit of the Government. From representations which have been make to me, I find that the traders and bankers of the country have been unable to obtain the ordinary supplies of money to enable them to carry on their transactions. The bankers of the country are unable to discount bills as they could do in prosperous times, owing to the scarcity of money which at present prevails in all branches of trade. I have also been told that the in vestment of large sums of money in railroads has had a considerable tendency to withdraw capital from the or dinary sources of trade, as well as to render money more scarce than it otherwise might have been. I have heard that many parties in Lancashire who have invested their money in railroads have preferred to sell their shares at a discount rather than pay up the calls, and of course that eircuu.tstance has naturally tended to .increase the scarcity of money. Mr. HUME—Speak up. It is not usual for a Member to speak with his.: back turned to the House.— (Hear, hear, and. laughter.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I find also that a system has prevailed amongst the moneyed men of London of withdrawing their money from Government securities, and purchasing, with the money so withdrawn, goods, bills, and railway shares at very large discounts. At first this naturally led to a great;, increase in the number of bills brought into the market, and when the alarm or panic came, the banke rs, in whose hands the bills were placed, found it the more difficult to get money advanced upon them, except its very heavy discounts. It was further represented to uo, from the unsaleability of Exchequer-bills, that many men were unable to realise any money on those which they held, and conse quently the effect of the measure lately passed will be to facilitate them in such effort.i, and it will also en able them to dispense with calls upon the bill-broker, and, further, it must alleviate th,e pressure on the money market by bringing into circultttion capital, until now locked up. Now, Sir, lam not prepared to say that it would have been possible for the Bank to have done this, except with the concurrence of thk last measure, enabling the bankers to pay their loans by advances with Ex chequer-bills; however the obj ect of the Govern ment was to put themselves: in funds, by the use of the money now lying in th a banks. Sir, the ex tent of the demand upon the Bank has been exceedingly limited. I made no more than the usual call. I had forewarned the Bank what the amount would be. Nor was there any reason fo r alleging that an assurance or pledge was dividends, dadmeeuaaninidis mw oeunrs t et h p e t oi r ai e. paid, et w :bv o euos u ta l i d otaquvnu charter that such assistance would. not be required. I e given a t the can find no such promise; but did observe, that in consequence of another measure, the equalization of therefore, that it was wise measure. It I . may be permitted to read xeee r - et from a speech which I myself made o n effect from a speech ehwhiseanhsse that an ex a . it will be seen that I then predicted the result occafs themeasure. The Right Hon. Gentleman he of extract to that read an d t . d Now, Sir, I quote this to show that the operation of the measure was foreseen, and that no ex - tectation was held it re c r n h g t a to mlaakpep misapprehension out of an excessive demand being d i e. I have thought gen tlemen have fallen into on thislt will be seen, subject. therefore, that the time when advances would be required was amply foreseen, and time iv foren paration to pro vide for them. With regard to the e c n b r' - tors to the loan, it has been my object to give every facility ontr u for the purpose of easing the money market, and e xperience m in public statementoa nd made vwb aahteehrhnatietiveleanerehossfsl'etobadm,Bhore 4a o aeci, .trsrn c tic re: c gtat,to when wtr s npeionoauunnt passing r quar te rs emptecrhfi 00. number . eshnererearnoool continued — Now. la rger think,pf la rgeera cor recting rohhetreyer and private life has taught me this; that driving a hard bargain It is no doubt true, that when g t li d is bad, and the money market fev erish, last fortnight there has been a considerable reduction in the receipts at the Custom House, yet within the last the revenue ra esuffers. During the few days, I am happy to say , improved, and resumed their ' usual course--(Hear, hear)—aud things are much easier than they formerly were. The . funds have also fallen; but now I am happy to say, from the report of to-day, thait they matters have much are up again, and there has been an easy day. This has arisen from the reduction of the loans to be advanced to the Exchequer, and the improvement in the exchanges with America. This is, therefore, a good account, and I wo u ld h a ve hoped for improved prospects i n the future, were it not attended with a rise in the price of corn.—(Hear, bear.) As far as Loudon is concerned, the pressure for money is decidedly relieved, and I hope that it may extend to the provinces, so that a restoration of trade may be effected. It is, however, impossible to deny but that corn had risen to a fearful price; but the Noble Lord at the head of the Government has given notice of the only course by which to prevent its fur ther increase. No doubt to some extent this might have arisen from the exportation of corn ; but I may observe that while the exportation has been about 132,000 quarters, the quantity imported was 432,000 quarters. Last week the amount entered for home consumption was in proportion to 17,000,000 quarters per annum. The entry for the week of bread st u ff s was equa l to 200,000 quarters. The entr ies for all ki n d s o f gra i n are 333,273 quarters, or, at an ordinary calculation, at the rate of 17,000,000 quarters. Lord G. BENTINCK —For wha t time? Lord G. BENTINCK—Is this the amount i m p orte d , weTekhe._TlLAooNghCtEerL.)LOß of the EX CHE QUER—In the or entered for home consumption ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER--It is the amount entered for home consumption. I have said that the entries for all kinds of fo o d i s 333,273 q uarters. I cannot g ive the imports of all kinds -ad, and th e autho iot corn, but the impor t of breadstuffs h as on the whole ri kept on in a pretty equal increase, the diff erent b eing less than 3 , 000 qua rters p er week. Ido not know that I need state anything further on thi s h ea d . Since Friday night I obs erve a slight alteratio n i n the pay. en into t t h t e o Bank thatot a E goodngl effect might re su lt f r om the extension of the period of paym en t. I there foren propose to give to every contr ibutor for ev er y sum of money, in regard of these instalm ents, which shall be paid on or before the 18th day of J une, interest at 5 pe r cent., and in like manner I prop ose to give to te s t s there made r every contributor, for any sum of money paid from the 18th of June to the 10th of September, interest at the rate of 4 per cent. per annum. The Right Hon. Gentle man concluded by rea din g the resolution. On the motion being put, Mr. HUME rose and sa id that be was not aware whether, in maki n g the explanation the Chancellor of t he Exchequer had explained anything to the satisfac tion of • lion. Members, but he meant to say that in the explanation he had not shown to his mind any reason for the pressure whi c h h ad ar i sen i n the money and commercial markets. He complained that the interest of money had risen to five per cent., but he bad given no reason . for the ch anges wh i ch h a d oc curred. He stated, as it seems, that these changes which had taken place had put the capitalists, who had the money of other s in their hands, into great difficulty since the rate of interest had risen. Why he, speaking as one who had placed money in the hands of a banker would , under such circumstances, only be too glad to have it ready for a call. He, therefore, thought that the Right lion. Gentleman had been much misinformed, and that he had assigned no reason why an increase of the discount should have taken place. He had said nothing as a reason i for any alteration in the interest, and had said nothing either that had to do with the currency of the country. He expected that the Right Hon. Baronet would have assigned some reason l'or the changes which had taken place since 1844, which areuld have been an explanation of the extraordinary pressure which was now felt ; but he had not done so. He had taken the trouble to make a long extract from his own speech, certainly. In 1844 the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel) had tnatle an alteration in the law, and had separated the banking from the issue depart►nent, he thought very wisely; but he was not preparkd to say whether the reserve of fourteen millions was sufficient"; but look ing at the large amount in the coffers of the Bank, he should say that was ample. The deposits which appeared to be in the coffers of the Bank were more than those of former occasions. Be that, however, as it might ; having provided a bank to settle or fix the amount of paper issue, it mattered not whether that bank were continued at the west or the east end. There was a bank estab lished for doing that, and that being done, what was the next great change that took place? It was to place the Bank of England,with all her resources, exactly in the same position as anyother bank in anyother part of the country•, leaving her to limit the extent of lunr discounts at ht:r own discretion. It was expected that such an arrangement would have the effect of preventing a pressure of the kind the country was now witnessing. In that respect it had failed. It might be owing to the conduct of the Bank authorities them-Elves, but he did not possess sufficient information as to the contents of their papers and books to enable him to criticise their conduct. He had no hesitation though in stating that it was never held out by any body at the time the Currency Bid was passed shat the Bank of England was to make the seine advances as before upon good bills. Ile must say that such a proceeding as that just now stated was never contemplated ; as far as he could recollect the speeches of the Right Hon. Baronet, he never made any speech anticipating such an advance, On the contrary, he found that he provided cash in the Exchequer to render it unnecessary to have these calls. He believed that when the Right Hon. Baronet lelt office there was money in it to pay any demands made upon it. They had been told that the Bank had timely notice. Yes, he knew the quarters were coming round ; but what notice had they of the present state of the money-market ? Could any man have believed that circumstances would have led to the present pressure ? He considered that it was not fair to t't t Bank of England to have given such an interpretation, which was decidedly incorrect. He would be free to say that the publication of the Bank accounts, showing a deficiency, had spread an alarm in the country. He believed that more of this pressure arose from alarm than actual scarcity, and it only showed what a delicate thing credit is to a country like this. He might probably err in the views which he had taken. He had approved of the first step taken by the Right Honourable Baronet, ' but he objected to two measures i the one was his placing the Bank of England in a different situa tion from the other banks. It was not fair to the Bank of England to require them to pay in bullion, while the others were permitted to pay in Bank of England notes, thus rendering it necessary for the Bank of England to hold bullion for the greater portion of the other banks. He objected to this as extremely prejudical to the bank. The next error which he considered Government committed was that they should have any con nexion whatever with the Bank.. If they wished Government to stand upon an independent basis, they must not permit it to depend on the Bank for the payment of its dividends. One of the first and most important duties of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was • to see that Government had the means to pay all the just de mands which might be made upon it. If this were the case there would be no embarrassment or difficulty felt in the money-market, and the Bank would be free to apply itself to the accommodation of the public. He believed, therefore, that this dependence on the Bank was a great error. There were other measures also to which he wished to direct attention. The currency of this country was gold. They had a gold currency based on paper. Hon. Members should bear in mind that the Bank had 14 millions of issue based on securities, and for any excess beyond that they must have gold in their coffers. Be this sum large or small, it must be paid in gold. He asked the Government why gold should be placed on a different footing to other articles, such as tea, coffee, and sugar, on which merchants were allowed to make issues ? He maintained that free trade should be al lowed in banking as well as in other things, taking care that the notes issued were to be redeemed in gold if required. If the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth could not give a better reason than had been given by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, he (Mr. Hume) thought they ought to retrace their steps. At the present time it was wrong to maintain the issues, when corn was 120 s. a quarter, at the same rate as it was when corn was only 50it. What ha 3 beets the case in Scotland for the last century? There they had a different system of banking, and he would ask them to give one instance !of error which had resulted therefrom. On these grounds he thought the Government ought to retrace its steps, and that the House should resolve itself nto a Committee to investigate the whole question, with ;he object of placing the currency on a new basis. Mr. DIASTERNIAN said that nothing in the proposi tion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been stated which was calculated to alleviate the feeling of uneasiness that exists in the commercial world. Ix fact there ought to have been a joint consent between the Government and the Bank. The arrang •ment mule by the Right Hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer would simply be taking a sum out of the Bank, in order t i place the Exchequer in the situation in which the Go vernment ought to be placed without such an effort. It was not to be expected that at these several quarterly periods of two or three millions of deficiency that the Bank should advanoe the money without some Government surety, and he would there fore propose some addition to the resolution which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had proposed. It was his impression that the assistance in the present difficulty ought to be obtained by some other means, and he would therefore state that the effect of this addition would be that the Committee were of opinion that nothing would tend so much to relieve the present pressure on the money market as an assurance from the Chancellor of the Exchequer to Parliament that he had arranged with the Bank for an advance out of the issue department of the Bank, such advance to be repaid out of the public securities like the remainder of the loan. Mr. GREENE conceived that the Hon. Gentleman was not competent to move the amendment, inasmuch as the motion for going into the Committee of the whole House was for raising the interest on the loan in the future instalments. Mr. MASTERMAN said that he had shown that the amendment was part of the proceeding. Mr. BROWN was commencing his address to the House when loud cries of " Speak out " were heard from several sides of the House, and the Hon. Member stated that his voice was so weak that he could not exert him self more than he did, and then proceeded to say that one portion of the nation was not consistent with the other. They were aware that in the export and import trade there was at the present moment great distress. Much effort had been made in the provinces, and he be lieved that part of the object of the present motion was to relieve the depression of foreign trade. No confi dence whatever was felt in the United States, and though there were large orders at this time in Liverpool, there was no sufficient inducement to send out the goods. The case was the same in the interior among the manufac turers, and in Manchester there was the utmost uneasiness prevalent in the several houses with respect to the imports and the exports, and busi ness had indeed assumed a very serious aspect. The condition of the country was this. The business of the country was stopped, and day by day thousands of her manufacturing labourers were being thrown out of employment. It was a fallacy to tell him that there was not sufficient money to carry on the business. At pre • sent there were from thirty to forty millions of sovereigns in circulation, and if a portion of that amount were called in, and one-pound notes substituted for it, there would be amply sufficient gold placed at the disposal of Government to enable it to relieve the country from the prevailing depression without touching upon the principle of the Bill of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite. Mr. NE WDEGATE felt it to be his duty to state that he had long predicted that the result of the mea sure of 1844 would be what it had been so graphically described. It was impossible that any other result could happen, for there was no practical man in the country who did not agree with him, that his anticipations would be fully justified. Let them, however, not incurgreater future danger by their endeavours to escape from the past. He was of opinion that an issue of bullion accord ing to the present standard could not be maintained. On a fair calculation th e i ssue was t w i ce as muc h a s the bullion remaining in the bank. In 1798, the standard of Elizabeth, which was silver, was altered to gold. He had the high authority of Lord Ashburton for such a state ment, and that silver standard was one of which the me mory of man did not run to the contrary. The Right Hon. Baronet was in error, therefore, when he said that the present standard was the one of Queen Elizabeth. He could not help feeling—when he saw the Right Hon. Baronet prepared to pass the mighty measure of free trade in the last year, and, at the same time, determined to maintain a system of currency adverse to that advo • , cated by the advocate s of free trade—that the people of this country were about to be exposed not only to a f ore i gn competition, but a heavy pressure in their monetary difficulties. By their present system, accord ing to the words of the member for Lancashire, they must either send their gold abroad or starve the people. One of the greatest dangers that could befall the coun try was to permit to have any posnr over the Bank . of England ; it would give the executive a . despotic in fluence which they ought neverto possecs; i . t would give them a control over every man's property an England, which was a pow er which they should never permit either to be held o r exercised. He hoped that the noble lord at the head of the Government would deeply consider this matter, and although he m i g ht be compromised by his former votes and although he may be anxious to retain the assistance o f those who were still more dee p l y compromised, to act like an honest man, as he believed he would, and save the country from the evils pressing upon it. Whenever they sought assistance, either from the pressure of the home market, or the necessity for supplies abroad, they were met by this Act of 1844. For years himself an d friends had laboure d against that policy, and it was with no e xultation that they found their fears realised now. The lion. Member proceeded to read extracts from speeches of S ir Robert Peel delivered in 1819 and 1844, to show that the effect contemplated by the measures had not been realised. With the fact before them of the Chancellor of the Exchequer adv anc i ng t h e di scount on -Governme nt bills, with the mills and workshops standing idle, and yet at the same time nine -millions of gold in the Bank, ho thought it was high time to retrace their steps. Could they forget that in 1833, without the assistance of the Bank of France they would have stopped payment; and that, on i another oc casion the Bank having only 600,0001. n gold, and 420,000/. in silver, applied to Mr. Rothschild to change the silver, and by which he cleared, it was alleged. 100,0001. He trusted these circuinstaeces would lead them to reconsider the course they had been pursuing. and place the currency on a better foundation in future. Mr. FORBES wished to say a few words as it re garded Scotland. In 1843 they were a contented people, but ever since the passing of the Bill of 1844, they had suffered the greatest difficulties, arising from the ope ration of the measure, and he trusted it would be re pealed. He could not see how the law should be altered in regard to corn and other produce, and gold be made an exception. He submitted that gold should be placed on the same footing as any other thing that was con tinually changing in value, and be called on the Chan cellor of the Exchequer and the Government to reconsi der the question, and have the subject fully investigated with the object of effecting a remedy. Mr. FINCH said it was no matter what a currency was made of, provided it fulfilled the function of distri bution. The bust form of currency for this country was a properly restricted paper currency, b, cause it would then protect the commercial interest of the country trout such pressures as that under which it was now suffering, by affording the amplest facilities for the interchange of commodities. If, however, they continued the pre sent system, none of the speculators would venture to -send out for corn, and the people would be starved. He di .1, therefore, hope that Government would Like this matter into their serious consideration. Alreudy ruin was impending over the manufacturing community, but still the pressure had not yet reached its height, and it was the opinion of all parties, that if Govsrament were at once to take decisive steps:the commercial world might be restored to a healthy position. Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said it appeared to him that the proposal of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would go but a little way to improve the state of the country, though it might in some degree relieve the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself from immediate and pressing dem an d s . 'a h e 1 Right Hon. Gentleman had not told theni whether the contractors for the loan were prepared to accept the dis count he had named. It was certainly below the amount now required for goods bills, which had only 60 days to run, and whatever might be the anticipations of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he very much feared Govern ment must yet have further recourse to the coffers of the Bank of England. The Right Honourable Gen tleman had told them that the money market was easier now than it was a short time back, but when it was remembered that wheat had reached the high price of 120 s. per quarter ; that the stocks on hand were exceedingly low; that the importation of corn and cotton was considerably above the quantities im ported in the corresponding period in former years, it was not unnatural to suppose that the drain of bullion would not cease for some time to come without recourse were bad to some legislative enactment. If, therefore, Government were anxious to prevent the gold in the country from being exported the present law must be continued, but, then, what must be the result of that continuance ? Why, it would have a tendency to keep up prices, reduce supplies, and still further depress trade. The exchanges with America were ag ainst Eng land, while the expo r t s were falling off to an enormousextent, and unless so met hi ng were done instantly price of corn must rise and the drain of bullion become greater. The prospects of the supply of provisions from Ireland were very bad if not exhausted, for from axe turn which he held in his .hand he perceived that in December last, 15,000 dead pigs were sold in the Cork market, as against 3,000 in the corresponding period of the previous two years. It was sufficiently plain, therefore, that the country mus t d epen d f or i ts supplies upon foreign sources. Now this state of things bad not been brought about, as in the year 1825, by over-speculation on the part of the people, but it was attributable to the system pursued by Government. Out of 161,000 mills in the manufacturing districts, 728 were either working short time, or not working at all, and as that circumstance alone would have a ten dency considerably to reduce the exports, he confessed he did not look for a speedy return of the gold which had gone out of the country. Money must, therefore, of necessity rise in price, and, in addition to the manu facturing labourers thrown out of employment, it was clear, that unless something were done, most of the new railway companies must reduce their operations, and throw an immense number of labourers out, of work. Now this distressing state of affairs could not be attributed to want of money, because it was well known that the coffers of the Bank of England, although locked up, were full, and all that was wanted to restore prosperity, was to set the credit of the Bank and the country , at liberty. The position of men of the highest credit was at the present time most perilous, and he was assured, on the highest authority, that be fore a month elapsed, many of them would be obliged to stop payment, in consequence of the present difficul. ties. lie was informed, on the best authority, that one house in Lancashire, which had no less than 60,0001. in bullion, were unable to carry on their business. Was not this, then, a monstrous state of things, that they were obliged to prevent the importation of food, and to starve the bellies of the people for the purpose of keeping up the Bank Restriction Act of 1844. Mr. O'Connell said in the course of last winter that rapidity in the supply of food was with regard to Ireland the essence of humanity and of political saga city. He fully agreed with him, and called upon the Government to have no longer recourse to temporary measures, but to 'proceed at once in a rapid and eff,etive manner to procure lood f r the people, otherwise far more disastrous results would take place than they had hitherto witnessed. The famine would visit their own shores, and he now called upon the Government to look to the great interests of this country—which were not limited to cotton speculators or to railway promoters. Those who were walking in the steadiest manner in the legitimate pursuits of trade, would be involved in the general ruin. Those who traded to the east, and those nho traded to the west, had to suffer in the impending distress. From all the indica Lion of the late elections in the United States, it would appear that the tariff of America would become more restrictive than it was at present, and he very much feared that America would not be disposed to adopt those free-trade measures which had brought this country to such a crisis. Russia, also, that formerly could not go to war, unless the Barings and Rothschilds came to her assistance, had shown no symptoms of meeting this country on free-trade principles. He trusted, therefore, that her Majesty's Government would imitate the example of the great Ministers of this country who had preceded them in power, and would come forward with measures to take off the present monetary restrictions; and would also make an advance of Exchequer-bills to meet the embarrassments of the country. He hoped they would not persevere with the'Act of 1844, and he was highly gratified to hear the Right i Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) say that no feelings of pater nity would induce him to advocate its continuance if it proved to be mischievous in its operation. Now he (Lord G. Bentinek) thought that this dangerous opera tion was discernible in the complicated embarrassments in which they were at present involved, and that all these indications were grounds, at any rate, for the suspension of the Act. The Noble Lord then cited some statistics to show that the Bill would become more restrictive in future than it was at present. With regard to the conduct of former Ministers, he found that in 1793 Mr. Pitt came foward with 5,000,000 of Exchquer-bills to relieve the then monetary pressure of the country. In 1816, when there were 2,000 bankruptcies, cash payments were postponed; and in 1819 further relaxations were afforded. In like manner in 1825, and in 1826, Mr. Huskisson issued a number of bank notes to relieve the embarrass ments in which the country was then involved. Lately the Bank of France was much in the same predicament as they were at present, and it got 800,000/. as a loan from this country, which greatly relieved the pressure under which they laboured. To show the effect of this credit to the Bank of France he would just state that 200,0001., the last instalment of the 800,0001, had never been called upon, as the pressure ceased to be felt. Now, if the same system of credit was applied to this country, he had no doubt that the same results would follow. They had now three years' experience of the Bank Charter Act, and they found that its influence was most injurious, and that, like the barren fig tree in the vine yard, it deserved no other fate than to be destroyed for its unproductiveness. Mr. CARDWELL said, he could not but coincide with the Hon. Gentleman who had addressed the House, that when an Act had been passed, and had been found to be impracticably inoperative that then the time for its repeal had arrived. The Noble Lord opposite, who had voted for the Bill whe n it was b roug h t f orwar d , would allow him to say, that those who heard his pre mises must have been most grievously disappointed at the conclusions to whiCh he had arrived. He (Mr. Cardwell) had heard that Noble Lord make statements in which he concurred, though he totally differed from the results which ho drew from those statements. That Noble Lord had said that he saw no reason why the pre sent distress should be permanent. All his suggestions had been directed to the circulation of the currency. He believed that those who directed their attention to this subject would find it to be the fact that they never would be able to extract any artificial advantages they might arrive at.—(blear, hear.) Adam Smith had likened the currency to a wheel, which in ,its °Tirs° spun round anything that was placed upon it. They had a certai n quant ity o f articles, and currency was the wheel that bore them round. What was the cause of the pressing under which they laboured ? Not long ago they had bad harvests. This country undertook, under an intoxication, to execute larger works than it or any 1 other country was capable of performing at that time. The predictions of the time had been realised, and the .country was labouring under the effects of that intoxication. He found that the Bank of England at the time had not contracted its issue at that time when the danger began, and when considerable as sistance was demanded. He thought, in the respect to currency, that in the first instance they should have truthfulness for their standard, and in the next instance economy in its application. With regard to the first they had adop a te p d re a ced m i easure which a complement of was merely measure, namely, that of 1839. A temptation had been offered to individuals which was too g reat for individual pru dence, and circulation was incr e ased .. at the very moment when it should have been diminished. But they were in great danger, therefore it was a mistake to say that there was any new principle in the Bill of 1844. The effect of that Bill was to drain the gold in the country, which went into the private coffers of the bankers of England and Ireland. That Bill had saturated thecoun try with gold. It was now said that that Bill had done much mischief because it contracted circulation. He contended that it they send abroad gold t h e y diminished the - circulating medium of the country. He thought, therefore, that the effect of the -measure would be the direct reverse of what was asserted. After a few words from Mr. BROWN, Mr. BAttING said that he could not concur with the lion. Gentleman who had just addressed the House (Mr. Cardwell). Other count: ies wanted corn, other countries were importing corn; France wants corn, and is imp sting it, but in France there is tea such a state of ticancial difficulty. It might be said, that it was the metallic circulation .in France which effected this, true it was that there was a larger proportion of metallic currency there than in this country, they had eighty millions of gold for fifteen millions of paper, while we have thirty millions of paper to fi!ty millions of gold. With regard to railways, he was one of those who believed that railways had been carried to too great an • extent. At the same time he did not underrate the great advantages of the economy of labour, and the develop ment of the resources of the country which were obtained from it.—(Hear, hear.) People bad invested their money in securities, which were unavoidable, and there , fore he was of opinion that railway enterprise had been carried too lar•, but there had been other times when there had been speculation twice as great, but there never has hoer. such a want of power to meet the engagements of the day. It was not the Bank of ISegland which had nOsmatiaged the mutter. He did not mean to say that the reduction of interest was not a ssise measure ; Ito believed that. it was. It there was any pr,neiple in the charter of 1844, it was this, that the Lank elieuld in iiiatty,Frepertton to a the bullion crease its paper circulation in its coffers. There muy L e a n Mint or rt „ on, lust it was not such it want which eiu this monetary ptvistit e ; h e believed that the a alcetoe of it sprung front tee limitation of the pouers tit tie very feet of a limitation, produced the evil. lie 111,4 tat; any part in the brier - sire %skid' ',rose oil the Batik charter , as he did not feel himself competent to euttr upon the subject of what should be the currency of the country. lie did tint mean to set himself against high authorities. but he would state a fact, that for ten days there was an impossibility to obtain money under any pre tences, acid all from the want of power in the Bank. Well, then, ought not these facts to be taken into consideration by those who were the advocates of this proposition. There were sixty • thousand pounds of silver, and not one shilling could be raised upon it; its owners sent to the bank to buy it, the bank refused; it dare not, in consequence of its limita tion. They might say then, why not send to Hamburgh or Paris? But bills of a fortnight were even refused to be discounted. Did they wish to keep an unnecessary amount of bullion in the bank, until they could see how far the screw had to be driven until the whole commercial interest of the country was shaken to its centre ? They wished by the charter to make trade secure and certain, why they would make it the greatest lottery in the world, if they made money bear three per cent. in April, and in August thirteen per cent.— (Hear, hear.) There was undoubtedly a great pressure, and they might make it a panic if they refused to grant facilities to commerce. The Bank of England should have power to borrow of other countries, and not borrow in our own market ; where, the very fact of it so doing, only increases the scarcity.—(Hear, hear.) He thought, under the present circumstances, that the Government ought to have the privilege of extending the issues upon securities, so as to admit of its granting larger accommodation to the trading classes. He did not blame the Government for the present difficulties which had arisen, only so far as the policy they bad supported had contributed to this result. They had gone on stop by step to take duties off a variety of arti cles, and so long as.business was good all operated well; but,now they found a falling revenue and a disordered market, with difficulties of such a character as to force the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take the course which he had that night proposed. He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman would havepursuedawisercounse if he had not taken thenarrow view ofa needy Chancellor with an empty Exchequer, but had taken the wide andcom prehensive range of all the great interests of the country, in the proposal of some large measure. to relieve the pressure which at present existed.—(Cheers.) Sir GEORGE CLERK could not agree with the Hon. Member that the present monetary difficulties of the country were attributable to the measure of 184.4. Under such a system as would satisfy the Hon. Gentleman, there would be continual danger of over issues of paper as no test of any paper that might be issued would exist, but the alleged solvency of the issuer. The surplus ca pital of the country was not an unlimited quantity which could be increased to any extent by an issue of motes, but it was limited by the real produce in the coantry which was forthcoming for distribution. This regulated the disposable capital of the country. This year they had had a scarcity of food, perhaps to the extent of twenty or thirty millions. Other nations were suffering from the same cause. There had also been large investments in railways. The effect of all these causes was to restrict the disposable fund for the pur poses of trade and the employment of the people. He could not see how this evil could be lessened by the relaxation of the present system, and allowing the banks to discount bills with their notes. Were this so, the bullion would be all driven from the country, and a general monetary crisis would take place like those of 1826 and 1839. Though the issue of one pound notes might induce a .short period of prosperity, the day of reckoning would eventually come, and the distress then be far greater than it could be under the present system. The only safe founda tion for a currency was a metallic basis, and not one of paper. Certain he was that the measure of 1844 was not the cause of the difficulties. _Under these circumstances he very much regretted that a debate should have arisen on the Bank Charter Bill. The Hon. Member for Huntingdon held a high position ix the commercial world, and if it were true, as the Hon. (it ntlemaa represented, that that measure had produced such distressing results, it was his duty to move that it be repeated, in order that Parliament and the country might have an opportunity of xpressing an opinion on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) With rcgird to the question of the currency, the velue of a pound had long been settled, and it would be unwise, nay, it would entirely break up the commercial relations of the country, if they attempted to re-open that question. The pie sent distress was to be traced to one natural cause, namely, the country had undertaken too many heavy works, and, like an individual who attempt to do more than he had the means to ac complish, it had overreached itself. The fact was, the country had embark e d i n t oo many railways, and they must wait with patience till it had recovered its former flourishinc , condition. Tampering with the currency would only aggrevate the evil, and he therefore trusted the House would adopt none of the suggestions which had been thrown out upon the subject, but leave it for time and the natural course of things to restore the coun try to a state of prosperity. Mr. DISRAELI was glad the Hon. Member for Hun. tingdon had not made the motion of the Right Hon. Ba ronet the Member for Stamford, because such a motion Could have nothing to do with the question before the Committee, and therefore would not have been entitled to their consideration. The Hon. Gentleman, the Mem ber for Clitheroe, had touched upon all those subjects, which he seemed to think they ought not to treat of. The Hon. Gentleman had laid down certain principles for the establishment of a sound currency, which might he difficult to challenge, but which certainly bad no re. ference whatever to the circumstances with which they had to deal. The Hon. Gentleman also passed a very warm panygerie upon the Bill of 1844, which had it been discussed would have at once decided the question they were discussing. The Hon. Gentleman told them that the object of this Bill was to saturate England with gold. That might have been the object of the Bill, but the truth was, there was more gold in the country in Sep tember, 1844, than there had been subsequently to the pass ing of the Bill. The Hon. Gentleman then endeavoured tb trace the present depression in the commercial world to the fact, of the alarm not it lying be la earlier taken. Now he maintained that they had no right whatever to criticise the conduct of the Bank. The Act of 1844 de fined its functions. By that Act they invented for the regulation of the Bank a machinery that was almost as perfect as the sliding-scale itself. The regulations for the issuing department were enunciated by the Minister, matured by the House, and received by the country, and they had therefore no right to criticise the conduct of the Bank, because that conduct had been defined by themselves. Oh ! but the Hon Member for Clitheroe said the Bank did not take the alarm early enough. Well, it was true in tke month of August last the Bank reduced the rate of interest, but he wanted to know what there was then in the country which should have made the bank look with any alarm to the future. It had almost an unprece dented amount of treasure in its possession —he believed perhaps the largest amount they possessed for the last two years or two years and a halt before. It was in a position to command the precious metals throughout the land, and being placed in that position, the bank had a right to suppose that it was justified in assisting every well founded commercial movement. True, it might have heard of a Member of that House Right moving_ H 0n that the ports should be opened; but did teheßi give the proposal their sanction. b Baronet the Member fur TamworthTohre btlaihk,too,Governmentmight . complaining eie w g er e e f but t and therefore the Bank future. He put down by the Government , the have co h m ea in rd g ofscoartchietry, Hon. is i h e e m ir e rscorn complaintsla which no one wanted h a d nodo know to csanse whether look he w thel t th hat ala d r o m cum to ent, could falsify, and which any one could appeal to—he wanted to know whether it was not a sufficient justifica tion of the Bank of England? There, however, was the Act of 1844 in a state of distress, and, as a c ry m us t r l e a a ll oni d nw T ohr ( et il h,B ea aa r nn , and ss re-echoedch firstee r m s . a ) de b T byy h t e thhe ec Mem ber r o g n e be found to come to the rescue, it was found to be the d oßfanimk Member p o r f u d f E o e u r n g c r did tthh ae that foresight ee t ss a ie k g he allegations for Clitheroe, and it was asserted on all sides that it ctha that b o onwdyeinrientitieudee.u, H no rge had ha de rita deni ed, rate of t however, been fo interestfor in the course of last summer, they would not now be in a con iition to meet the crisis in which the country was at present involved—their merchants would not have scoured all parts of the earth for supplies of food—they would not have been able to procure 6,000,000 quarters of wheat to meet their own deficiencies—they would not now be exporting large quantities of corn to France— nor would the exehangesia Europe be influenced in their favour.—(Hear, hear.) And though that Act had been so political, so sagacious, and so beneficial in its opera tion, it appeared from the statements that had been made in that House that the Bank of England was the great criminal, and all upon the authority of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth. He be lieved if the Act of 1844 was properly examined the House might be led to a result highly beneficial to the country. What appeared to him to be imputable to it was that it could not prevent any of the mischief that arose out of the system which was previously in exist ence, but it could and did prevent the benefits which sprung from that system. It failed in every object that it held out. In the first :place they were told that it would prevent anything like the financial disturbance and disorders, that were called by the name of panic. Now, it was a consequence of the embarrassment of 1836 and 1839, that the House was led to pass the HEALTH OF TOWNS. Viscount EBRINGTON presented several petitions in favour of the Health of Towns Bill. POOR-LAW (IRELAND). Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented a petition from Kilkenny, against any increase in the number of es officio guardians under the proposed new Irish Poor-law. MEDICAL REGISTRATION BILL. Mr. AGLIONBY presented a petition, signed by a number of medical practitioners, in favour of the Medical Registration Bill. HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL. Mr. BARCLAY presented petitions from Bristol, signed by upwards of 3,000 persons, in favour of this measure; also a petition signed by 72 medical practi tioners of Bristol to the same effect; and a petition signed by the Rev. the Dean of Bristol, and 52 other clergymen, to the same effect. NAVIGATION-LAWS. Mr. LIDDELL presented a petition, signed by 340 merchants and other persons interested in the trade and navigation of South Shields, against any alteration in the navigation•laws. HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL Lord SANDON presented a petition, signed by vari ous public bodies at Liverpool, the whole body of me dical men, and a large number of the working classes, the parish authorities, and others, in favour of the Health of Towns Bill. Mr. HUTT also presented a petition from Gateshead to the same effect. MONETARY SYSTEM. Mr. FORBES presented a petition numerously signed from Stirling, praying the House to adopt some measure calculated to give assistance to the Bank under its present pressure. HEALTH OF TOWNS. _ Mr. HUME presented a petition in favour of this Bill ; also one in favour of the Medical Practitioner , : Bill. THE PETITION OF GEORGE DREW. Sir FiiiDERIC TIIESIGER moved that the petition of George Drew (presented 7th May), be printed with the votes.—Agreed to. DISCOUNT ON LOANS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the order of the day that the House go into Committee on the Loan, Discount, and Instalment Bill. PRICE OF GRAIN, AND LIMITATION IN DISTILLERIES. Mr. H. BAILLIE wished to ask a question of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord 3. Russell). He found that since the period he had put a. question to the Go vernment . on this subject, the, price of grain bad in-