The Sun. — London, England, 1840-06-12 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION. from the present system, whetted the appetites of their op . Pouents, and made' there as :nue.) ever:etc the 4dvantAges . the agriculturists derived from it, as they did those which they themselves would derive were the system changed. Hence it was they heard constantly put forth, not indeed by judicious persons, but by those to whom the Noble Earl had allucled,that every improvement in foreign manufactures was attributable to the Corn-laws, and that if the Corn-laws were abolished the price of food and labour would be diminished. This was a state of things which could only go on from bad to worse, End he was convinced it was de sirable that the present Corn-laws should be recon sidered. He agreed with the Noble Earl that this was Lot a question between the manufacturer and the agricul turist, and that he who endeavoured to set them against each other was an enemy to his country.—( Hear, hear.) Ho thought it an indispensable preliminary to bring the adverse parties to a just sense of the real interests of the Comm inity at large, making them sensible that the inte rests of the community depended on the interests of its com ponent parts, and that there was no principle of good policy Which required that one portion of the community should be benefited, and another injured. For these reasons he wished these laws should be reconsidered. If it could be made manifest through all the fallacies and misapprehen 'dons which prevailed on this subject, he believed it would appear that cot only were the Corn-laws prejudicial to all classes, but more particularly to the landed interest. He said this because he believed that nothing was more pre judicial to the production of any article than fluctuation of price, and he conceived if any one feature of the Corn laws was more proved than another, it was that this fluc tuation resulted from them. This was acknowledged to be the result of the law of 1815, and it was in order to put an end to this law that the law of 1828 was enacted. Now he asked whether this law had fulfilled the intention of its framers. Twelve years had since *lapsed, during which the prices had ranged from 35a. to 80s. He said then that the experiment had failed. But it was quantity that created price, and bow could they regulate quantity. —( The Noble Earl here made several remarks on this subject, but from the tone and position in Which he spoke, we were unable to catch the import.) The losses which resulted from this system were borne by the lauded interest before they were felt by the commu nity at large, fur the farmer put his lands into cultiva• tion, and employed his skill and capital upon them, but the more he produced the more prices fell, And thus all his hopes were terminated in disappointment. and this was not all, for he not only produced sufficient for the market, but anticipated the future, and was conse quently obliged to sell at 4 seduced rate ; all of which were so many deductions ream the skill, industry, and Capital which he had employed on the land. The opera tion of the law was to secure to the English farmer a Supply for the markets when the price was low, and to rid them of their corn at a time of scarcity, or, in other words, when prices were high. The English farmer was benefited as little as possible by them when they were high, and when they were low, all the loss fell upon him. The Noble Marquis seemed to deny that; but how often, within the last forty years, had not the landlords been obliged to remit large per centages upon the rents, not Merely from benevolent motives, but from necessity, and, the absolute incapacity of the farmer to pay them. He thought it would interest, as well as instruct, them if any accurate estimate could be formed of the losses to which this fluctuation of price had sujected the farmer; and in an able and instructive work by Mr. Wil 30n, who assumed 525. 2d. to be the proper price of Wheat, as being the average price in Mark-lane for the last Seven years, he proved that any rate above that price must be so much clear profit, and that anything below it was 10 much loss to the farmer, and he thus showed that the ;Mount of loss in three years was upwards of 501,000/. and the amount of profit only 3551., leaving a balance of loss of 500,6451. This calculation applied only to wheat, arid and at this rate on wheat only there was a loss of between 4,0 00,000/. and 6,000,0001. in seven years. This was their effect upon the landed interest in the first place, and he doubted if any other class suffered to an equal extent. The year 1838 was a remarkable omen in the history of t his country. A bad harvest came upon a short stock, and b etween October 1538 and 1839, twelve millions' worth of Corn was imported, and the amounts of bullion and deposits .varied just in proportion to this influx of corn. It was i mpossible but that such changes should affect the currency s eriously..—( Hear, hear.) Suppose, now, this had oc urred at a money-crisis too, and that we had been obliged I ° import two millions of quarters at a charge of six mil -I%s, to be sent out in gold, what would have been the re sult ?—(Hear.) Now, as to the being independent of foreign states for the supply of necessaries of life,— etir reliance on them had been much exaggerated, (51 the one hand, by the agriculturists, to show their t tiru to protection, and by the manufacturers, to Cove the importance of their admission into a partici ftttion in the advantages of free trade. The main was to be had from Prussia, Silesia, Saxony, ,_4ilignish Provinces, &e., where the average cost might be `ken a t 28 s . 4d. a quar t er , t h e expense o f trans i t to "autzie 6s. or is., making the cost,there 345. 4d. On the r a Pens° of transit to England greatly different calculations d been made, some as high as 20s. per quarter. With ;tilt going into this question he believed the danger from Q t . eictia competition was not at all what had been repre 'elltebd. But as to our being independent of foreign states We were not so at present. We constantly were obliged t ' 4 have recourse to them for corn. Besides, a million and ttlaalf of our population were dependent on the regular im port• of fifteen or twenty millions worth of raw cotton, and " export of manufactures to the same amount.--( Hear, bete,) The decision of their Lordships would be watched by ~ . ,,▪ t itlreds of thousands of their country men with the deepest h l Sty___( Hear, hear, from both sides)—anxiety that et ! bldeed no parallel, for the question every yea' was t ge n g fresh importance—it was almost the only great i itesticni not identified with party. Men of all classes n ,.`tled in the cry for repeal—merchants, traders, Chambers Commerce—all were unanimous in their call for that 'erssure. Could the Corn-laws stand against another t i tters e tary crisis, or a corn crisis, or both together ?_-( Hear, h ear.) The population was increasing at the rate of a tt 'lliion in three years. The House would not p led g e itself , 1„ -154 tly specific course by ado p tin g this p ro p osition—( A ,fluid it w as only for reconsidering the subject. He " t) wid not say that he expected their Lo r ds hi ps to a s sent tO , this motion--(A laugh)—but if they rejected it he iu ° l lld feel the deepest regret, for it would signify their tesolve that the Corn-laws would bear no consideration, at Yet should receive no change.—( Hear, hear, hear. The Earl of FALMOUTH disclaimed any intention of 'Pug what would have offended the Noble Earl.—( Hear.) f Lo r d ASHBURTON sa id thi s quest i on h a d assume d a her importance with the speech of the Noble Earl, one of Maj e sty's Ministers. It was in itself, however, per l.,llPsthe most momentous question that could arise in this With the complicated relations that prevailed in 131 country—more complicated than anywhere else—it W as t _ abs ur d t o s peak of any one interest as being able to 0 4 without the outher—(Hear)—as well might a man try 6 nd out which limb he could do without.—( Hear.) Th erefore, th if' any one " interest" could satisfactorily show That the Corn-laws injured them, that was sufficient reason l i:repealing them. He, however, did not believe that to be ease. He considered also that in the present state of airs, nothing would be more injurious than the alteration 1, t he Corn.laws. Whether the present scale was the best e Would no t now decide. On a bona fide representation T rere those who were for the general principle of the Corn i4:4 that would be perhaps debated ; but the present pro 13sition eras with a view to repeal. Fluctuations had been • e ged against the Corn-laws. He believed they were 4, 1 , 1 than •efould otherwise arise from the natural ,e; 4l , 4 tions of the seasons,—( Hear, hear, hear.) t 4 ,,, t ne principal articles of commerce were liable to flue -11 ' , ions in price as great as corn. Cotton, wool, iron, tweet time flax. Every article of commerce had within a twert time been subject to fluctuations in price of oee or e ° hundr e d p er cen t. What reason could there be for ie et ring the fluctuations in the price of corn to the opera- ITh ,f ' n of the C are -laws ? It was necessary to give the te c arry such a protection as would encourage him the cultivation of the land to the highest pitch perfection—( Hear, hear)—in order to enable him to vide for the contingency of a deficient importation, ~h et also to com p ensa te him for the disadvantages under t ell he laboured in consequence of the burdens which aere imposed upon him ; and he certainly had in addition ri ght to an equivalent p ro tection with other producers. j„ is was admitted by most political economists. Mr. NP Cul ea admitted that the corn-grower was entitled to a pro it- ka ec ,tion equivalent to the peculiar charges imposed on him, Zu this protection Mr. /SPCulloch estimated at is. One burde n as to the charges. The corn-grower had to bear the q t l : d eil of supporting all the surplus labour of the country. Manfuacturer could take up a thousand men one day, etid if he found be could not profitably employ them, he could the,. next day throw there upon the parish. He t)ew a - case in Wiltshire, in which a manufactory had boen erected in an agricultural village, and labourers had • collected from all parts of the country by advertise kern. The speculation had turned out an unprofitable i lt e• The manufacturer had removed to the north, the 1111%urers had been thrown upon the parish, and the rates beers consequently increased to seventeen shillings in stde Pound. There were also other charges which been thrown upon the agriculturists. The Secretary fState bad recently been encouraging the introduction d oub tederiel system of police, which in some instances had the county rates. What had rendered this police f ce tsary ? They did not want a police to keep people It was the towns which Cobbett hed steallng turnips. a, designated the large wens which had rendered the I,44:roduction of the police necessary. 'Then, again, there ti, j • the burden of tithes. How could the corn-grower in i!eouner be expected to enter into competition with the 'Z1 3 13- fgroave Y r of France and Italy, where this burden of eid e i l was unknown. Then there was the charge of the 1 , 4 and-tax, the greater part of which had been redeemed. e ' home corn-grower was entitled to soma protection on tit I 1, ttecount Stock-in-trade, it app eared b y law, was h w ' le to be ° rated. What was the conse q uence ? The 1 10 ' 14 had eai se d an outcry upon the subject, and a Billwas before Parliament to exempt stock-in-trade from rates. e i did not object to this; be thonght it was very expedient ta 44 biecting stock-in-trade to rates would be investing ..u2 With als inquisitorial power of inquiry which wou le tolerable in this country. But then the corn-grower d es entitled to some protection as an equivalent. Again. ke t e e'rn-grower could not go to the cheapest rtT -41,n to p urc h ase his commodities. Sugar , for in saki er e, might bo considered as almost a necessary of lit th a , tb e English corn• grower had to pay 300 per cent. m ore t r , a, the resident ie Hatnburgh for that commodity. F roe was a subject on which everybody talked, but which in le a; ' ,`v existed no where ; and they were not called upon t o te for what this country ought to be, according to the 18 40 'n . etries of the philosophers, but for what it actually was in hi e n,: and they found, that so far from other countr es being thorned to agee to this liberalism , all those countries in whicb fr e ,`, were popolar bodies of representative actually repudiated " rld e- 'they could carry on negotiations on the subject, Xle!" h e e y all ended in nothing. If an Ambassador of Louis e e , ko • tied agre e d to a commercial treaty, they might have s ot d o On his carrying his country with him ; but they could . 0 , 50 with an Ambassador of Louis Philippe, as the Cham 4-ot his countr would be very likely to refuse to accede to such treat Y Then, again, in North Germany, there Ithih.'t'ehCommercial League which, according to Dr. Ilowring, put an end to had it been attempted at liop e c r n mencement by the Government, but which it was now tt , ll. : i s! to think of breaking up. They had adopted the sys- Prgttctien in its fullest extent, and it was useless to think of knocking at their doors in the hopes of obtaining terms. Under these cireturist:l;ti - ,e , , what equivaloiit could they ofrel - t the corn-grower by way of protection? The Noble Earl had attributed the recent derangement in the currency to the opera tion of the Corn-laws.—( Hear, hear.) He did , not deny but, the circumstances of the Corn-trade might have contributed to that derangement, but he thought it was much more attri butable to the conduct of the Bank, and besides it was in cumbent upon the Noble Earl to have shown that this derange ment could not have taken place under any other system of Corn-laws.—(Hear, hear.) The Bank had suddenly raised the interest of discounts from 3 to 6 per cent., and this it was which had destroyed all the small people, and produced the panic.—(Hear, hear.) They had now replenished their coffers, and the same thing had taker. place now which had happened in 18:25 and 1826, when the Bank had all but stopped payment. But under a free importation of corn there would be a greater export of money from the country. He did not think that this country could safely rely upon any foreign country for a supply of corn to any considerable extent. In fact, it could not be procured. The manufacturers stated, that if they could get a free importation of corn, manufactures would more than double in extent—that the whole country would be covered with Birminghams and Manchesters en veloped in steam and smoke. Now, setting aside the argument that that would make England such a steamy smoky place that no one who could live out of it would willingly live in it. Let thei, Lordships contemplate what must be the effect of such a country being dependent on America, on the one hand for the raw material by the manufacture of which these people were to be employed, and on the Continent of Europe on the other for the food from whence were they to be supplied with food? The only material supply they could expect must be from the Baltic. They could not get corn from France, as it had no corn to furnish ; and Belgium was in the same state. Then with re spect to the alleged distress. It had been stated that it was impossible fur their Lordships to conceive the extremity and distress in which the mauufacturers were placed. lie ( Lord Ashburton) did not believe in that distress ; but if it (lid exist, it arose from the monetary state of the country. In 1835 and 1836 it had been stated that manufacturers were in great prosperity, and it was absurd, therefore, to suppose that a small additional price in corn could put a stop to that prosperity. The whole manufactures of the country had grown up under the Corn-laws. In the cotton trade the consumption had increased from 90,000ffis. in 1915, to 600,0001b5. in 1828. If it was thought the present system was bad, the sooner it was altered the better ; but he thought, with the proofs he had adverted to, the House would be slow to arrive at that conclusion. But then it was said that the inhabitants of the country where there was cheap bread were in a flourishing condition. Now that was not the case, according to the statements of Dr. Bow riass for that gentleman stated, with respect to Prussia, that each individual there had alsout thirty-four pounds of neat in the course of the year. Now, he would venture to say, that in the worst dietary in any workhouse in this country each individual consumed twice that quantity, and the same observations might be made with respect to clothing and other things. Upon the whole, therefore, he thought that the House would be ill-advised, and would act unwisely, if it adopted the resolution of the Noble Earl. The Earl of RADNOR supported the motion of the Noble Earl.' The Noble Lord who had just sat down had stated that the House would act most unwisely if it adopted the resolution, without first having evidence on the subject, and, he believed, had the consistency to state that he should vote against a measure, the very object of which was to obtain evidence.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") From a fair examination of the averages given in Mr. Took's book, it was evident that the fluctuations were greater on wheat than on any other articles, except hops and apples. The Corn-laws were protection, no doubt, to their Lordships ; it was protection to the land, but it was no protection to agriculture.— (Loud cheers.) It was a protection which took money out of the pockets of the people, to enable landowners to pay those rates which pressed upon them. Such was a former admission made by his Noble Friend on the cross-benches (the Duke of Richmond). Now, they did not ask for a change of the law— they wanted nothing but inquiry ; and why should inquiry be refused, if, as they said, their case was so very clear ?—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl read several extracts from a speech made by the Noble Lord (Ashburton) in former times amidst much laughter, as they were very strongly argumentative in favour of free-trade, not only in corn, but all else. Then with respect to the opening of the trade, his Noble Friend said there might be danger of not getting corn, and we must not become dependent upon foreign nations. Now were they not really dependent upon foreign countries ? Was that not proved by the fact that in four years they had im ported no less than four millions of quarters ; and were not their Lordships aware that for a century we had been an im porting nation? We had invariably insported more than we had exported since 1770, and of late years much more ; and in time of peace or time of war the import of corn went on in creasing until 1820. There was no difficulty at all in obtaining corn in abundance.—(Cheers.) Even under the present Bill, during the last eleven years, the importation of wheat amounted to 900 quarters yearly; yet this was called protection. They did not prevent corn from coming, but by their regulations t'sey brought it in in the most inconvenient mode that was possible. Who supported the population of this country ? Was it not the manufacturers? The agriculturists did not absorb all the po pulation, and therefore he supposed those not absorbed by the agriculturists were absorbed by .the manufacturers. The Noble Lord proceeded to contend that an increased importation of corn would not diminish rents. During the first ha fof the present century exportations exceeded importations, and the price of wheat fell ; whereas. after 1750, the balance found importations exceeded exportations, and the price of wheat fell. The remainder of the Noble Lord's observations were inaudible in the gallery. The Duke of RICHMOND said he ',vas anxious to say a few words on this subject, and more particularly as, it was said those who supported the present Corn-laws did so to keep up their rents. This he denied. He was one of those who were perfectly indifferent to any accusation the Anti-Corn-law League might throw out against him.—( Hear, hear, hear. ) The Chamber of Commerce at Manchester had never ventured to say which they wanted, cheap bread or cheap labour. What good would it be to the poor man to have the loaf at 3d. if he had not work ?—( Hear, hear.) This was not a land lord's question. It was a farmer and labourer's question Go into inquiry forsooth ! We had all the Information required, and it, was deluding the people to go into Committee unless prepared for repeal. He disliked such discussions out of doors as led to excitement of the passions. The farmers were as good and sensible men as any other class, though they made not such loud speeches as the manufacturers.—( Hear, hear.) The object of the Corn laws was not to exclude foreign corn, but to render ourselves as independent as possible of foreign coun tries. The advantages of repeal were grossly exaggerated by the manufacturers, who made their large fortunes under the Corn law protection. Did they wish to kick away the ladders by which they had risen ? That there was some distress in the manufacturing districts lie admitted, but the repeal of the Corn laws would increase that distress by injuring the home market, their main stay and support. Lord 3ROUGHAM said he must even at that late hour— (a quarter to 2 o'clock)—say a few words. It was said by the Noble Duke (Richmond) that no inquiry was needed ; yet had the subtle speech of the Noble Baron ( Ashburton) not touched the facts of the Noble Earl, the mover of the question. Said the Noble Duke, " You assert, and 1 deny—and what's the conclusion ?" " Therefore lam right." Ought not the conclusion to be " Therefore we should inquire?"—(Hear, hear.) Had not last years' evi dence been tendered at the bar ? Had it not been refused?— (Hear.) After that, whose fault was it that the motion was vague ? Would their Lordships allow him, shortly to ask what they intended to do ?—( Hear, hear.) Were they about to say that they would not consider the question ?—( Hear. hear, hear.) If they acceded to this motion, they would give the country some reason to hope that there was a chance of their reconsidering the question of the fixed duty and the sliding scale.---( Hear.) He should be heartily rejoiced if he found that he had misunderstood the ground on which the motion of his Noble Friend was rejected.—( Hear.) The question was one upon which, at this moment, the people of this country felt an unprecedented interest. He regarded it as a good omen, that, on this occasion, the proposition of his Noble Friend had the support of a portion of her Majesty's Govern ment. His own opinion was opposed to " open questions" j in the Government—( Hear, hear)—but he rejoiced that on this question, if there was division in the Cabinet, the division was in their favour—(Hear, hear)—and the next time the question came before their Lordships, there was the greater prospect of success.—( Hear, hear.) Ile must give a negative to the proposition of the Noble Duke opposite, which was sup ported by a Noble Lord connected with Essex, namely, that the present laws were supported, not because they had a ten dency to raise the price of bread. He could understand them no o:herwise—( Hear, hear)— and the arguments which he had heard only convinced him that such was the intention of those who supported them. Reference had been made to the Corn law League, and it had been asked what did the members of that league want? It was asked, Did they want to make bread cheap? His answer was, that they did.—(Hear, hear.) A Noble Friend of his, behind him, had said that he doubted whether it would be of any advantage to the labouring classes to lower the price of bread. But he (Lord IL) was quite sure that lowering the price of any commodity was an advantage to those who consumed it.—( Hear, hear.) It had also been asserted that to lower the price of bread would be to lower the rate of wages. He denied that. The rate of wages did not depend upon the price of bread alone. It might be affected also by the price of other commodities which the labourer consumed. But it depended mainly not so much on the price of the commodities which the labourer required, as upon the :de mand for labour, and the proportion of the supply to the demand. He begged their Lordships' pardon for having gone into any part of the arguments that had been adduced, but he could not allow the question to go to a division without stating shortly what his views were upon the subject. Lord MELBOURNE was well aware that even at an early period of the night, the present was not a subject that could be discussed in a satisfactory manner to their Lordships ; but considering the observations that had been made upon the question, lie could not allow it to go to a division without making a few observations. His Noble Friend who had just sat down hail asked what was the object of those who would vote against the motion. His Noble Friend who had made the motion had stated that it was expedient to reconsider the laws with respect to the importation of foreign corn. Now he ( Lord Melbourne) thought that it would be inexpedient to do so. At the same time he must] beg to be: understood that he never meant to pledge himself to the present system, as there might be circumstances which would render it ne cessary to reconsider the subject. But under the present circumstances of the country, and the present situation of affairs, he did not think it right that Parliament should stir the question, by entering into the consideration of it. If the House adopted the motion of his Noble Friend, they would be lowering the protection of agriculture, that was the object of the present motion. He would not now go out of the question, but he thought that there had been very great injustice in the representations of the state of the law when it was said that it was intended to keep up the price to 80s. a quarter. One great apprehension which he had with respect to the measure was, that it would be impossible to carry it into execution. He could not help thinking that Parliament would be acting in an extremely imprudent man ner if it made the experiment proposed. He could not dismiss from his mind the ppprehension that it was not wise or prudent to rely entirely for the maintenance and support of the great part of the population of the country on foreign supply. He agreed with Mr. Van Buren upon that subject. It was true that America was in less danger of want ing foreign supply than perhaps any other nation in the world: but being in that situation, if Mr. Van Buren thought it right to adhere to that opinion, that gave his opinion in his (Lord Melbourne's) mind more weight. Mr. Van Buren was a man of great ability, and they must recollect that the opinion he had given was not his opinion alone, but that of the greater portion of the people of the United States. He had very great doubt whether in considering this subject in an economical, financial, or commercial point of view, whether it would be prudent or wise to adopt it, even if he were con vinced that it would be most advantageous to the country, con sidering the situation in which they were placed ; he would consider it inexpedient to enter into the consideration of it under the present eircumstances.—( Hear, hear, hear.) His Noble Friend had carefully abstained from stating what his plan was —whether it was a diminution of th e present scale o ir a but, Ohatever the object was, feeling that that ohjecfitxcoe'ild( duty ; could not be ca rried without stirring up society from its v e ry foundation, lie did not think the advantages that would be gained would compen s ate for the evils that would be created. currency, which ( H c e h t e h e e r r s e . f ) ore felt it to b e his dut y to oppose the motion. believed to t b h e a t traced all to the theevils of theTmheanEuafralctouf r eVr s R complainedWl C K were and not to the operation of the Corn-laws. Earl FITZ WILLIAM replied. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, JUNE 12, 1840. Their Lordships divided, when there appeared— AT , ,,,,,,terts—"resrrt, 127 ; Proxies. 67 Contents—Present, 34; Proxies, 8 Majority against the motion —ls2 The House then adjourned at Three o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUNE 11. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'C lock. Sir JOHN IVALsn was introduced by Lord Mahon and Mr. R. Palmer, and took the oaths and his seat for Rad norshire, in the roam of Walter Wilkins De Winton, Esq., deceased. Mr. WILLIAM .MILLS brought up the Repert of the Committee on the Wilston Towns Road Bill. The Bedford and Woburn Road Bill was read a third time and passed. On the motion of Sir C. LEMON, the Committee on the Weaver Churches Bill obtained leave to make their Report on or before Friday, the 19th of the present month. Mr. H. BERKELEY presented a petition from Dis senters at Bristol, against any further grant for Church Extension. Air. VILLIERS presented petitions from Macclesfield, AsEton-under-Line, and from several operative bodies in Loudon and its vicinity, praying for the repeal of the Corn-laws. Mr. T. DUNCO\IBE presented a petition frem St. Jamcs's parish, Clerkenwell, against the Parochial As sessments' Bill; also, a petition from Yorkshire, for a mitigation in the treatment of Mr. F. O'Connor at York Castle. Mr. TURNER presented a petition h m r against the immigration of Hill Coolies in the Nt,,..ititius. Mr. DIL LON presented petitions from Perth and a narkshire against Church-rates. Mr. HA STIE presented a similar petition from Paisley. Sir E. FILMER presented a petition from Gravesend against further grants to Maynooth College, wad for the importation of free labour sugar at equitable duties. Lord CLEMENTS presented a petition from Leitrim against Lord Stanley's Registration Bill. Viscount ADOBE and Capt. WEMYSS presented petitions for the importation of free labour sugar at an equitable rate of duties. The Quainton k Bucks) Inclosure Bill was read a third time and passed. Colonel LYGON presented a petition from NA orcester against Sunday trading. Also from the Archdeacon and clergy of Worcester, against the Ecclesiastical Duties and Revenues Bill. Mr. WARBURTON presented a petition from an in dividual confined in Chester Castle for a seditious libel, complaining of the severity of the restrictions to which Le was subjected. Mr. 'GOULBURN presented a petition from the University of Cambridge in favour of the Chimney Sweepers' Bill. ___ Sir W. MOLE SWORTH presented a petition from Leeds, praying for a mitigation of the punishment of Mr. Feargus O'Connor. On the motion of Mr. BETHEL, the Lords' Amend ments to the Hull Improvement Bill were agreed to. Mr.:M'L EAN presented petitions for Church Extension. Sir G. CLERK presented a petition from Attorneys for the removal of the Courts from Westminster. Mr. LITTON presented petitions in favour of Lord Stanley's Registration Bill, and against the grant to May nooth. Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the Mayor and Town Council of the borough of Wigan in favour of his Irish Registration Bill. In answer to a question put by Mr. RIDD E LL, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that if the third read ing of the Canada Bill were agreed to to. morrow night, he would on Monday move that the House proceed with the Ecclesiastical Duties and Revenues Bill. It being new five o'clock, many members entered the House, and Lord STANLEY rose and said, having given notice that it was my intention to move that the House do resolve itself' into Committee upon the Irish Registration Bill, and the hour of public business now having arrived, I would have arisen with the intention of making such a motion, but that I have been given to understand that ,the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies has a communication to make to the House upon a subject upon which both sides of the House must be unanimous—(Cheers)—as I consider it very important that it should not be mixed up with any questions of a political nature—(Cheers)—l have, there fore, abstained from using my right, as naturally the House will expect that the first business to be proceeded with, would be the motion of the Noble Lord; to him theref,:re I give way. —( Cheers. ) ADDRESS TO HER MAJESTY. Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and said—Sir, I rise merely to state that the Noble Lord has rightly anti cipated, as the House will have anticipated, that it was my intention to move at once an Address to her Majesty on the late atrocious and treasonabile attempt upon her life. But, Sir, thinking it most desirable, that as on some pre vious occasions there has been a joint address of both Houses, would rather take a. course in which the two Houses can at once agree, than propose immediately a separate address. It is, I know, the intention of my Noble Friend, the First Lord of the Treasury, to ask the assent of the other House of Parliament to an address, and if that be adopted, we can then take measures to present to her Majesty a general address from both Houses, having concurred in the terms and prvpricty of that address.— ( Hear, hear.) The House, which was at the time extremely crowded, presented a scene of unusual excitement, as soon as the Noble Lord had concluded, mos t of the Members leaving their seats, and conversing in grc ups on the floor. A large number left the House immediately afterwards, and pro ceeded to the bar of the House c f Lords. After a delay of upwards of twenty-five minutes, Masters Farrar and Sir Giffin Wilson appeared at the table, and on the part of the House of L or d s , d es i re d a presen t Con ference with the House of Commons on a subject materially affecting the safety of her Majesty and the happiness of her people. Lord JOHN RUSSELL then moved that the House should agree to the Conference desired by the House of Lords, which having been agreed to, upon the motion of the same Noble Lord, the following, among other Mem bers, were appointed to conduct the Conference:—Lord John Russell, Sir Robert Peel, Lord Palmerston, Lord Sandon, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Labou chere, Mr. Goulburn, Sir James Graham, Sir H. Vivian, Lord Mor?eth, Sir George Grey, Mr. Alston, Mr. Wilbraham, the Attorney-General, Lord Granville Somerset, Lord Robert Grosvenor, Mr. Villiers Stuart, Sir Denham Norreys, Mr. Lefroy, Sir George Clerk, Mr. Pox Maule, and Mr. Smith O'Brien. The Members appo'inted to conduct the Conference then withdrew to attend the House of Lords. After an absence of about half an hour, Lord JOHN RUSSELL appeared at the Bar and said,—l have to reyort that the managers appointed by this House have met the managers appointed by the House of Lords, at the head of whom was his Royal Highness the Duke of Sussex, and I have to acquaint this House that the Lords have taken the late most atrocious and treasonable attempt on the lite of her Majesty into their consideration, and they have agreed to :in Address to her Majesty, to which they desire the convirrence of this House. The Address laaving been read by the Clerk at the table, Lord J. RUSSELL said—Sir, I expect that there will be one unanimous feeling of indignation and horror at the attempt alluded to—( Loud cheers)—one unani mous feeling of congratulation to ourselves and to her Ma jesty that her Majesty escaped the danger which threatened her---( Loud cheers)—and one unanimous desire to concur with the House of Lords, and carry our sentiments to the foot of the Throne.—(Cheers.) Sir, I have to state, that as her Majesty was yesterday proceeding from the Palace—immediately after her Majesty left the Palace, a most atrocious and treasonable attempt was made upon her Majesty's life, by the firing of a pistol, and that atrocious attempt was repeated immediately afterwards by the firing of another, directed against her Majesty and Prince Albert as they were proceeding to their usual ride. Sir, most fortunately this attempt was not followed by any injurious result, either to her Majesty, to Prince Albert, or to any person whatever.—( Hear, hear, bear.) — Her Majesty immediately afterwards proceeded, first, to the house of her august Mother, to relieve any fears—( Loud and general cheering)—which, from the circulation of reports, might have arisen by giving still more alarming picture of the occurrence that the reality; and then proceeded to show herself in her usual manner to her subjects—( Renewed cheering)— and thus giving to her people at once a proof of her safety, and the firmness and fel titude of her character.— ( Much cheering.) With respect to the individual who has committed this most treasonable attempt, this certainly is not the time at which it wouid be right of me to say anything. Examinations have taken place, and these exa minations have resulted in a charge against one individual, who will have to take his trial according to the known laws of the country, which give to every person the benefit of a fair trial, whatever his offence may have been. I shall only proceed further to say that we cannot but concur in the Resolution and Address of their Lordships, and I now move that this House most heartily join in expressing both our joy at her Majesty's happy pre servation from so great a danger, and our prayer to Almighty God to preserve to us the blessings we en joy under her Majesty's mild and just government, and to continue to watch a life so dear to all of us. Sir R. PEEL instantly rose and said, this, Sir, is one of those occasions on which it is impossible not to feel the utter inadequacy of language to express our sentiments. I will only, therefore, express on the part of those with whom I have the satisfaction to act in public life, our unanimous concurrence in the sentiments which the Noble Lord has expressed of horror and in dignation at this atrocious crime—( Hear, hear, hear)___ of heartfelt congratulation at her Majesty's providential escape, and our carnast prayer that the same protection which has warded from her Majesty this danger may continue to defend her from every peril.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. JAMES—WouId you allow me, Sir, to put a guys. tion of deep importance to the Noble Lord on this dis tressing subject, because it will afford not only the highest gratification to this House, but to the country gene rally to receive from the Noble Lord an assurance, which 1 trust he will b e a bl e t o g ive, that her Majesty's health has not materially suffered by the excitement and agitation which must necessarily more or less have been created in her Majesty's mind, and that of her Cm.sort Prince Al bert, by this atrocious, shocking, and diabolical attempt at assassination. I a l so h ope m y Noble Friend will be kind enough to inform the House whether evidence has b een adduced b e f ore the Home.offiee criminating any other person besides this individual.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and '° Order order.") If it is not the wish of the House to have the question answered, I will not press it. Lord J. RUSSELL—I have no hesitation in answer_ mg the fir s t quest i on. I had t h e h onou r of an audience of her Majesty two hours aeo and received from her Majesty's own lips th e assurance that her health has not suffered. , —( Cheers. ) sure the H on . G entleman must hi mse lf feel that it ought With respect to the second question , I am I not to be answered.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. PL UMPTRE said if the expressions the Noble Lord has used with regard to this occurrence, as no doubt they were, were well placed, I con fess that there is one feeling in my mind, which I trust will be responded to by the country, and that is that there ought to be some expression of thankfulness to Him by whom Kings reign and Princes decree justice, f,:r her Majesty's deliverance. I think that there ought to be a general day of thanksgiving throughout the country.—( [dear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said—Sir, if I decline saying anything upon the subject adverted to by the Hon. Mem ber, I beg that it may not be supposed that I do not feel the deep importance of the subject, and the value of the suggestion of the Hun. Member. The Address was then agreed to nemine emaradieente, and a message to that effect was taken to the House of Lords by Lord John Russell, and the other Members who had attendrd the Conference. Sir R PEEL wished to know when the Address would be taken up te her Majesty. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he believed that it would be received to-morrow, but he could not say pcsi tively. Sir R. PEEL wished to know whether the Noble Lord proposed that the whole House should take up the Address. Lord JOHN JOHN RUSSELL was understood to answer in the affirmative. IRISH REGISTRATION BILL. Lord STANLEY then moved that the House should r -solve itself into a Committee on the Registration of Voters (Ireland) Bill, No. 1. Mr. CHAS. WOOD then rose for the purpose of mak ing the motion of which he gave notice last night. That the present question might not he treated in a party spi rit, he thought he had already given most painful proof, and it was upon that ground that ho would ven ture to recommend to the House the adoption of the only course by which they could usefully discuss the present measure. lie had expressed his opinion before that it would not be difficult to alter the Bill of his Noble Friend the Member for North Lancashire, so as to make it conform to those principles which his Noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies had laid down as the basis of the measure he proposed for England. That was his opinion still. He voted for proceeding with the Bill because he thought it could be amended in Committee, but if :t were not, then at all risks he would have been pre pared to vote against it. There were many matters for discussion that it would be most important to discuss with the utmost calmness and temper—there was the question of costs both to appellant and complainant—there was the question of appeal—of the manner in which the Appeal Courts should be formed—whether the decisions in those Courts should be conclusive as against the House—all of Member had not given him notice of his intention to state the circumstances with respect to the tenants of Mr. Ling. The facts had been staled by him on the authority of a gentleman, who said they ware a matter of public notoriety in the country. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Noble Lord had assumed that he had shown an example of temperance and moderation which the other side of the House ought to follow. The Noble Lord, at the same time, had accused him ( Lord John Russell) of extreme disingenuousness, and had taken the opportunity of accusing generally those who claimed the franchise in Treland of every manner of fraud, perjury, and corruption. He wished to state why he was not exposed to the reproaches of the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord was well award that Registration Bills for England and Ireland had been introduced by the Government, and he was also aware that it had been made matter of charge against her Majesty's Government in a pamphlet distributed at the end of the Session. entitled Lord Lyndhurst's Review of the Session," that they sent up Bills to the House of Lords which their Lord ships could not agree to, or that they had refused their assent to the amendments made by their Lordships. He certainly could not go the length of the Noble Lord in say ing that they ought to reject their own opinions and adopt those of the Lords. With the view of preventing the delay that had taken place on former occasions, he had taken the Canada Bill, the Registration Bill, the Poor law Amendment, and the Ecclesiastical Duties Bill, at an early period of the Session, and he was prepared, after these Bills had passed the House of Commons to bring forward a measure with respect to the registration -of vo ters in England. The Noble Lord, however, chose to adopt a different course, and to consider the evils cf the registration in Ireland as paramount to all other subjects. It was not necessary, however, that the Government should change its opinion and adopt the course suggested by the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the motion of the Hon. Member for Halifax, he must say, that considering the whole vitality of the Bill was owing to the vote given by 1113 Hon. Friend—(Laughter)—the propo sithn had been very ungraciously received by the other side of the House. The proposition was one far more likely to lead to the amendment of the system of registra. tion than that of the Noble Lord. He complained of the number of days which bad been taken up by party motions from the other side of the House, and which had prevented him (Lord John Russell) from introducing his Bill at an earlier period. It appeared to him most injudicious to in troduce the English system into Ireland before it had re ceived the sanction of experience in that country. For these reasons he should support the motion of the Hon. Member for Halifax. He did not wish to re-argue the these matters required the most calm and temperate conside- question now as to whether the measure was good or inju ration—it was impossible they could receive that calm dis- rious, but his opinion remained unchanged, that although cussion upon the Irish Bill. Whichever of the Bills, evils existed in the Irish registration, he did not think that whether that for England or Ireland came on Tor dicussion the measure of the Noble Lord was the one best calculated must raise those points, and he thought they c ou ld b e muc h to meet the evil. The whole object of registration was to better discussed upon the English Bill than the Irish one. get a list of qualified voters to send representatives of that That was the real and only object of his motion, but he was part of the empire. He (Lord J. Russell) did not know that afraid his Noble Friend was not prepared to acquiesce in of Ireland the Irish Members were less the representatives it.—(Cheers.) His motion applied in the first instance than Eaglish Members of this country. The question of to the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member for North registration itself was certainly a most important one. It Lancashire ; but it applied equally to the Bill of the So- was possible that under it bad votes might be admitted. licit,r-General for Ireland ; and, with respect to the lat. But it was also quite as possible that by a too perplexed ter, he believed his Noble Friend was ready to acquiesce. and complicated system you might, under the guise of re -( Cheers.) His object was to postpone both of these form, really cripple and restrict the franchise.—( Hear.) Bills until the H ous e had coolly and calmly considered the Sir R. PEEL said, the Hon. Member for Wicklow Bill for Engla n d. He was not aware of what amount of had declared that he would not vote for the postponement support his mo ti on wou ld receive. It was only last night of the Bill sine die, and that he was prepared for a full that his Noble F r i en d the Secretary for Ireland informed and fair discussion. Now, after the speech of the Noble him that the G overnm ent did not intend to oppose the Lord, could the Hon. Member doubt that the effect of the committal of th e N o bl e Lord's Bill any further, and since present proposition would be to indefinitely put off the re then he had had no time to have any communication with form of flagrant abuses?—( Hear, hear.) The Noble his friends. His (Mr. C. Wood's) sole object was to 'r Lord gave no assurance that i.e would proceed even with procure full and fair discussion of a subject applying the registration of England.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble equally to both coun ties. Whatever might be the fate of Lord said other subjects were of more pressing im his motion he h a d now d o ne that which he felt to be his portance.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore, the Noble Lord duty, and which h e b e li e ved would ensure the passing would, in fact, by supporting this postponement, of some measure u p on t h e s ubject after calm and dispas- really be driving off this measure. He (Sir Robert passionate discussion.—(Hear.) Peel) was surprised that the Noble Lord should take Lord STANLEY said he could assure his Hon. such a course.—( Load cheers.) After the House had Friend that he gave him the fullest credit for the thrice debated, and twice, upon division, solemnly af motives which he a ll e ged, and his declaration of the ob- firmed its principle, would it respect its own character by ject he had in view—a calm and candid discussion of . now thus evading its decision.--( Hear, hear.) The Hon. the subject. B u t b e mus t add that if there were a sin- Member for Halifax, it had been said, had given vitality gle form of motion w hich c o uld be devised for the pur- to the Bill by his former vote. If so, certainly the pose of quietly sh e lving the Bill—Loud cheers)—without Honourable Member had shown very little affec exposing any Members to the odium of voting against tion for his own offspring—( Laughter and cheers) — the Bill in principle o r details—(Cheers)—th at motion and was about effectually to smother it.—( Laughter. ) was the one which bad been proposed by the H on. Mem- The Noble Lord had never intimated in this, or preceding her for Halifax. Could it be pretended that th e re was Sessions, that the consideration of the English registra any force in the objection that the Irish question would he tion should precede the Irish. Five or six years had better discussed on the English Bill, wh en every Member t h e N o bl e Lord considered this subject, and not till live knew well, that, though nominally an English measure, o'clock last evening had the Noble Lord discovered this the Irish question was in the minds of all ?—(Hear, new idea.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord's own legal hear.) For himself he would say that he had carefully authorities had brought in Bill after Bill on the same sub avoided all exciting and irritating topics, thought as- ject—never had this pretext for postponing it been urged. railed by attacks which he disdained to notice.— —.( Hear, hear.) Even during the late discussions, when (Cheers.) All he asked was that the House would _all ( theeaar,rghuemare.) u arguments thatp to five o'clock coeld beenliste y d es i t n erd t a h ) e , t c h a e us N e o h b a le d go fairly into Committ ee t o e ff ect t h at w hi c h t h e b een d rag ged forward, this pr e t ence h ad not been used. lion. Member for Haifa* ad m it te d m i g h t f a i r l y and H easily be done—the proper amendment of the Bill. Lord meant to vote for the committal of the Bill.—( Hear, If the proposition of his e Hon. Friend had been made on bear.) Did the Noble Lord think it creditable to the cha. the part of her ,NlajetiO Government at the commence- racter of the House that the measure, having been twice arent of the Session, in the month of March—if then, her carried, should now be thus evaded ?—( Hear, hear.) The Majesty's Government bad come forward and said that effect of this proposition would be to place Irish Re they admitted the abuses, and that the question of a gistration Reform completely in the hands of the remedy was open to discussion—that those points should Noble Lord ; for, of course, if Irish registration was not be settled for England as well as for Ireland, and that the to be reformed, but the English registration, the Noble House should have an opportunity of pronouncing its opt- Lord would be wise enough to keep the English reform nion on the details of the measures for regulating the back, to delay longer that inconvenient measure of Irish Registration in England and Ireland, he had no hesitation reform, which the Government so dreaded.—( Hear, in saying he would have assented to it, and he would hear.) What reason was there for considering the mea not only willingly but gladly have waived his own sures both together ? The principles of them were in Bill, and adopted the other proposition as most advanta- many respects different. Why not discuss on the Irish ' oeous to the welfare of the community. But in what Bill th e grea t quest i on o f w h et h er the registering should way, and at what time had the Bill been introduced by the be final ? And was it not absurd to suppose that the dis- Noble Lord ?—(Hear, hear.) How was it announced, and cussion would be more calm on the English Bill, when what was the intention? It was plain that it formed a everybody knew it referred to the Irish Bill?—(Hear.) convenient excuse for the purpose of postponing his (Lord Lord PALMERSTON said he was so anxious to re_ Stanley's) Bill, the principle of which had pre- taro the vote of his Hon. Friend the Member for Wicklow viously on two occasions obtained the assent of the from the seductive appeal of the Right Hon. Baronet— H ou s e —( Hear, hear)—and then lagging a 3 the English ( Laughter)—that he really must say a few words. The Registration Bill had come, still more late and lagging Right Hon. Baronet had no ground for saying that his came the Bill of the Solicitor-General for Ireland, who Noble Friend wished the English Bill to take precedence, 'to doubt was perfectly ready to acquiesce in the motion of to enable him to evade the Irish Bill. His Noble Friend the lion. Member for Halifax.—( Cheers, and laughter.) had said no such thing.—( Hear, and laughter.) His He looked upon the present motion in its effect, whatever Noble Friend could not have meant any such thing.— the Hon. Member's motives might be, as nothing more than ( Hear, and laughter.) What his Noble Friend meant to_ a means of carrying into effect the declaration of the lion. say—( Hear, and laughter)—his argument was founded on and Learned Member for the City o! Dublin, and for political reason and expediency for the postponement of which he declared that he and his friends owed a large the Irish Bill to be better considered after the English debt of gratitude to the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Bill. The best way was to render the English system Colonies, that it would have the effect of preventing the first as perfect as possible, and then settle the Irish regisa fair discussion of his (Lord Stanley's) Bill in Committee, tration.—( Hear.) And if it was said that this objection and by hanging it up until such time as it might please had never occurred to their minds before, he ( Lord Pal the Secretary for the Colonies to bring forward his Regis- merston) replied that nobody ever before anticipated such tratiort Bill for England, and after the discussion of all its a measure as this.—(Tremendous cheering from both sides.) principles to obtain the sanction of the House to them, by Mr. CALLAGHAN strongly denied what the pally postponing the Bill now on the I Ith of June, it would be opposite were very fond of asserting—that fraud, per utterly impossible that either his or the Solicitor-General sonation, and perjury were common in the Irish registra for Ireland's Bill could be carried in the course of tion.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Fctitious Votes the present Session, but they would be left, as Cornmitee had been referred to. The report and evi the Hon. Member for Halifax had termed it, "in their dente by no means justified such a sweeping charge. present relative position."—( Hear, and a laugh.) No doubt There had not been one case of personation.—( Oh.) He there were many provisions of the English system which it asserted that.—(Hear.) Yet the Noble Lord had the might be necessary and convenient to apply to Ireland. hardihood to make a general accusation.—(Hear.) As No doubt it might be necessary to discuss the propriety of to frauds, certainly persons were on the registry without registering annually or octennially. No doubt the question qualifications—( Hcar)—but no proof of fraud was given. of an appeal to some tribunal, and the mode in which that —( A laugh.) The question was, which was the right Court of Appeal should be constituted, ought to be dis- qualification ?—( Hear.) There had been no case of cussed. No doubt as regarded the two Bills it might be bribsry in Irish elections since the Reform Bill, like fitting to discuss the question of whether costs should be Hull, and Cambridge, and Ludlow.--( Hear, hear.) given in cases of frivolous objection, or whether it should Lord HO WICK denied strongly that it was his inten be extended to cases of frivolous claims. All these were tion to evade the Bill without incurring the shame of re questions of importance in themselves, but they did not af- versing former decisions. The part that he and his lion. feet the principle of the Irish Registration Bill. Whatever Friend the Member for Halifax had taken in supporting might be the inconvenience or annoyance of the English the second reading of the Bill—(Oh, oh, from the Con system, they had the same crying and acknowledged evils, servatives, and ironical cheers)—bore him out in that.— the same acknowledged abuses, which no man had stood up ( Hear.) But the fact was, there were two parties con.. i n the course of the discussion on the subject in that House cerned in the Irish registration dispute—( Hear, hear) to palliate, crying out for legislation i n Ireland for the one party charged with having the under last seven years.—(Cheers.) And knowing how dif- hand aim of supperting fraud and perjury, and the other ficult it was to apply a remedy to these minor de- with the equally unworthy design of restrictions under tails in the English system in the face of the th e pretence of reforming the franchise. Thank God, to crying abuses, the House of Commons was to be gravely this pass the question had not yet come in England. told, at the conclusion of tire Session, that till they agreed ' Therefore it was the subject could more calmly and dis to those details, no remedy was to be applied to the cor- passionately be discussed on English ground.—(Hear.) ruption, and perjury, and personation, and fraud which de- And this he would tell the Noble Lord, that if he (Lord filed the Irish system.—( Loud cheers, and a cry from the Stanley) had in view the effecting of a party triumph ;Ministerial benches of " Hard names.") Hard names they under the mask of a zeal for reform — (Cheers)—and might be, but they were not harder than were borne out raising an unfounded prejudice against the Government, by the evidence before Committees of that House, and he could not have taken a better course for such an object. be would repeat them, that there was fraud, personation, Had not the Right I-Fin. Gentleman the Member for Tam corruption, and perjury.--( Cheers from the T or y benches, worth stated that the Noble Lord the Secretary fur the followed by cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial Colonies, had adopted an underhand and dishonourable benches.) Over and over again they had been proved be- course to evade a division which he could not fairly meet— Cheers, and Tory counter cheers)—and th a t if the mea fore Committees of that House.—(Cries of " Name, .( name.") Before the Fictitious Votes Committee, and in sure of the Noble Lord were adopted, the Noble Lord all the debates on th e su bj ec t, t he charges that had been would then contrive to postpone his own measure, and to e off the disagreeable discussion of th e Bill o f t h e factsLTrioleught Noble Lord opposite;?-( Cheers and la ug ht er f rom the that enormous charge existed, as being inseparabl e f rom Tory benches.) The Right lion. Baronet had no right fo weree w ar d e h h ardecnoervde,rebnedetwi a er n e sw e e n r d e is d p . — u t e ( d H ; e e a r n , d h w e a h r i . l e ) sta s . and engendered in it, no man had attempted to bring the to make that insinuation.—( Cheers, and cries of Oh, same charges against the English system. The re f ore , h e oh. )—He would not merely say that such an insinuation would say that the cases were not similar, and t h at t h e ought not to be made against his Noble Friend, whose one Bill could not, in justice and fairness, be made to conduct was always so fair and honourable in that House— bane upon the other; but if they were made the one to ( C r i es of " Oh, oh," and ch e ers)—it oug h t not to have hang upon the other, th en he would say it was the been made against any gentleman who had the honour of duty of that House to apply themselves t o t h e a seat in Parliament.—( Hear, hear, hear.) lie did not . instance—to di in the firstdiscuss not think it seemly or decorous to impute to any Member greater grievance L d cheers.) H first.—( ona was of that House such motives as the Right Hoar. Baronet the grosser abuses motion were carried, the only had imputed to the N convinced that if the present week after that day after day, and . week, If his Noble Friend had had such motive the House result would be, the Bill would be postponed from time to time, as the con- would not allow him to take advantage oft h e lead them ; and then, venience of the Government mig h twere_. of the Noble Lord opposite, and to turn the Noble Lord's knowing, as he had stated, that they , approaching concession against himself.—( Hear, hear, and cries of the close of the Session, and havingnear,yw wound up all " Oh, oh.") When he heard it stated that an acquiescence the essential and necessary busin f es h s e , and having House assenteed pourer in the course proposed would be the same thing as giving to the of prorogation in their hands, if Halifax, although up the whole question for another ear, he must say, that motion of the Hon. Member the all things considered, he thought it would give of the 'louse, he 1 Bill might still remain on the order-bookthe b etter prospect of arriving at a settlement of the for one should feel that it remained there hopelessthreei of that quest i on in the present Session.—( Hear, and " Oh, r h. " ) uocess which, he would vent ure to say, three I n two days the English Bill. would !rasa through Com and three divisions of the Hous e had at least d entitled it to mittee — principles would have been laid down—the way in point of principle.—( Loud cheers.) would have been cleared—and the increased rapidity of regretted Mr. JAMES GRATTAN that tire N t roble iei r prog ress , w h e n they came to consider the Irish mea- Lord, in recommending tempe r and med eration to his sure, would more than compensate for the loss of time. — ( Mr. Grattan's) side of the House, had not acted up to ( Hear, hear and cries of " Div de , divide.") He would his own recommendation.—(He ar, hear.) The Bi ll of the only say for g one, that in supporting the proposition of his Noble Lord was one to disqualify and disfranchise 'lon. Friend the Member for Halifax, he had no view of r a nd, although the motion, o f the people of I re land; defeating the measure of the Noble Lord opposite.— for Halifax had taken oh," and " Divide.") On the contrary tile Honourable Member (Cries of " Oh, certainly votefor it i n p re f er- he would say him by surp r i se , h e should that i f the same question were again before area to the Noble Lord's Bill. The Noble Lord stated the House he would repeat the vote of the other night, if that the charges which he made had not been refuted, but it drew upon him again the same obloquy.—( Hear, hear.) on a former occasion he (Mr. Grattan) in reply to charges lie gav e that vote, after all the consideration which he brought aga i nst certa i n persons, the tenants of Mr. I Ling, could give the subject, and if the question were again be who had personated voters i n the county with which he fore the House, he would repeat the vote.—( Ironical was connected, that charge had been promptly met and d cheers from the Opposition.) On the same principle— put dow n . H e ma d e app li ca tion to parties connected • apart from all party considerations—fer the sake of obtain with, and lieing near the ertates of Mr. Ling, who do- i n .. a good system of registration of voters in Ireland, he dared that they knew nothing of them, and believed them , w o uld now vote for the proposition of his Hon. Friend to have b een mere f a brications.—( Hear , hear, a n d a 1 the Member for Halifax.—(Cheers and counter-cheers.) laugh,) With respect to the Noble Lord's Bill, he thought j Mr. HENRY GRATTAN rose amidst deafening cries it a most revolutionary and flagrant measure, and he would ' o f " Divide, divide," " Withdraw, withdraw.") He would be neglecti ng his duty to his constituents and his country vo t e for the proposition of the Hon. Member for Halifax. if he did not given i t every op p o sition in his power. On ; ___(.. Divide," " Withdraw," &c.) He was prepared for these grounds he should certainly divide with the Hon, t h e c ourse adopted on this occasion by Tory Members_ Member for Halifax. ' (Cheers.) He knew that when in former times a Bill for Lord PO WERSCOURT regretted that the Hon. Trish liberty was introduced the Tory Members kicked it ' over the bar.—( Cheers and laught er .) N ow, he would treat the Bill of the Noble Lord opposite in the same way. —(Laughter, and cries of " Divide.") Hon. Members might talk of dividing; but he would not suffer the Noble Lord to travel through the country in the new attire of a friend to freedom of election and a foe to intimidation and corruption.—( Cheers and laughter.) Why did the Noble Lord confine his remedy to one side of the Channel ? (Cheers)—and not only to one side of the Channel, but to one portion of the constituency on that side?—( Cheers. ) The Noble Lord had not the manliness to touch the ear 1-111A freemen—all his indignation was spent upon the al leged corruption of the freeholders.—( Laughter.) The Noble Lord might laugh ; but it was no laughing matter to those who were the victims of his measure.—( Cheers and laughter.) The Noble Lord was going to Ireland in the character of a reformer of abuses. Why did he not attempt to put down the corruption of Ludlow and Cambridge ? —( Cheers.) Such conduct appeared to him very like a disreputable and nasty hypocrisy.—(Cheers.) The whole secret of the Bill was that the Noble Lord and his party found themselves defeated; by the Irish majorities, which were available to the Liberal side on all questions that did not affect Ireland, and the Noble Lord found that he had the people of Ireland at his mercy in that House upon question which affected the people of Ireland ( Cheers.) He maintained that the present question was one merely of party; and no one knew better than the Noble Lord that his Bill would not remedy one of the evils that really existed.—( Hear, hear, and cries of " Di vide.") Why did.the Noble Lord object now to let this Bill stand over for the settlement of the English Registra tion Bill? In 1831 the Noble Lord had himself insisted that the Irish Reform Bill should be postponed until the English Reform Bill was decided. Why did he oppose a similar course upon the present question?—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Gr a tt an ) h ad b een told that day by Tory Mem bers that the Bill would be carried ; but those Gentle:nen admitted to him, at the same time, that England would feel the effects of the Bill when Europe carte to be arrayed against her.—( Cheers and laughter.) Hon. Gentlemen might laugh, but it was really no lau%hing matter. —( Hear, hear, and renewed laughter.) This mea sure had 'taken away from the people of Ireland their confidence in British sin cer i ty , an d they looked upen it as the most offensive measure that had been directed against their rights since the year 1806. The Hon. Member con. eluded, amidst loud cries of " Withdraw," and " Divide, divide," by strongly protesting against the Bill, and giv ing his support to the proposition of the Hon. Member for Halifax. Sir E. SUG DEN denied that he laughed at the wrongs of the people of Ireland. What he laughed at was the Hon. Member's assertion, that the effects of this Bill would be felt when all Europe was arrayed against Eng land.—( Cheers and laughter.) Several Members then rose to address the House, amidst loud cries of " Divide ;" and the Gallery was cleared, but no division took place. The Gallery door having been opened we re.entered, and found the House in a state of great confusion. Sir William Somerville was on his legs attempting to address the House, but the moment Reporters were seen in the Gallery, several voices exclaimed " Withdraw, withdraw, divide, divide," and others " Go on, go on ;" while an Hon. Member cried out " Mr. Speaker, I see strangers in the Gallery," and the Gallery was again cleared, but the gallery door left open, some Members crying out " stop, stop," and others " withdraw, withdraw," which rendered it difficult to know whether it was intended to exclude or admit strangers. At length, however, the storm a little subsided, and Sir W. SONIERVILLE proceeded to address the House, but amidst repeated cries of " Question, question," " Divide, divide." The Hon. Baronet, the Member for Londonderry (Sir R. Bateson) presented a petition on a former night from the place he ( Sir W. Somerville) re presented. He had felt it his duty to make inquiries re specting it, and finding that one individual, whose name was affixed to the petition, denied having signed it, he was induced to make further inquiries. He found that to that petition was affixed the name of a boy three years old, the name of one individual dead, and the names of thirty-one boys who did not know right from wrong. In the last Drogheda Newspaper he had received, there were communications to the Editor of that Newspaper, from no, less than persons complaining that their names had been forged to that petition. Yet the party who af fixed eighteen forged names to a petition. had the impu dence to come before that House and complain of imino rality,_(Cheers.) It was difficult, indeed, to believe that such parties were animated by a desire to put down frau..l, perjury, and immorality. He had never in his ex perience, known a single instance of personation in Ire land, although he knew two instances of it in England. He should vote for the motion of the Hon. Member for Halifax ; and, as he liked to do everything fair and above board, be would state bat his object in voting for that motion, was that he believed by so doing he would post pone the measure of the Noble Lord.—(Opposition cheers.) The Bill of the Noble Lord was so monstrous in its provisions, that no alteration, without absolutely cut ting down its principle, would make it acceptable to the people of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Although be was as willing as any Member to amend the Irish system of registration whenever it might require amendment, yet sooner than such a Bill should pass he would prefer leaving matters as they were. ( Hear, hear.) He would not for the sake of punish;ng those who might be guilty of fraud and imposture strike down and strangle the franchise of the entire people, and de stroy their liberties, solemnly granted them by Parliament. Feeling that the Bill, if allowed to pass, would be instru mental not to one party or another, but to the general interests of society in Ireland, he should give it every op position in his power.—(Cheers, and cries of " Divide ! Divide !") Mr. DILLON BROWNE could not allow the debate to close without offering his distinct opposition to the Bill. ' —(Bear, hear.) It was the duty of every Irish Member to thwart the progress of the Bill. The Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire bad not been very active in attending to the franchises of the English people, but had reserved his malice for Ireland. Lord STANLEY rose to order. The Hon. Member, in using the word " malice," was overstepping the bounds of Parliamentary language. Mr. DILLON BROWNE.—I may be going beyond Parliamentary language, but I am not going beyond my own conviction. The SPE AKE R... The Hon. Member must be per fectly aware that his last expression was contrary to all Parliamentary usage—(Cheers)—and I call upon the Hon. Member to retract the expression.—(Continued cheers.) Mr. DILLON BROWNE.—Then I have no other course to pursue than to retract the expression; but I consicler there has been no man of late years con nected with this country who has shown by his pub lic acts more hostility towards Ireland than the Noble Lord, and there is no man who deserves less to be respected by the people of that country, or who has shown a greater disposition to contract the liberties of the Irish people. Lord DUNGANNON rose to order. He submitted whether in discussing a measure in that House one Hon. Member was at liberty to cast personalities at the other and use the most unparliamentary language? The SPEAKER said the Nate Lord was quite right. No Hon. Member had a right to cast personalities upon another, and he had been carefully watching to prevent the Hon. Member approaching anything like personality. Mr. BROWNE made an observation across the House to Lord Dungannon, which did not leach the gallery, and which was followed by cries of " Chair, chair," " Order." The SPEAKER regretted to be obliged to call the Hon. Member to order, but he ought to apologise to the Noble Lord for the expression he had just used. Mr. BRO WNE did not mean to use any language dis respectful to the Noble Lord, and added something which did not reach the gallery, and which occasioned renewed cries of " Order," " Chair, - and great uproar. The SPEAKER said the Hen. Member woul!, b es t consult the respect which was due to the Hoty:,, by not repeating the offensive expressions in oth:,. terms. H e ought to apologize to the Noble Li - ;;Ct for having used them. —( Hear, hear.) Mr. BROWNE though' "ine Noble Lord must have mis understood him, for if Ire had used offensive expressions he extremely regretted it. He considered that the Noble Lord always en: , eavoured to thwart the progress of public li berty in Ireland. He therefore felt irritated, more espe cially when he saw efforts made to lower and degrade the religion which he professed. The Bill went to the extent of depriving the Roman Catholics of Ireland of the fran chise, and he did not think that it was at all prudent for an insignificant minority in that country (and he spoke numerically), to continue their hostility to the people of Ireland.—(Cries of " Divide," and much confusion.) Mr. Dillon O'Brien had lately stated that in Tipperary, if the present Bill passed, there were thousands of Irishmen ready to take up the sword for the liberty of their country ; and he ( Mr. Browne) would not only assent to that principle, but he would be ready to imitate the example and sacrifice his life for the liberties of his country. He thought the present measure one of the most atrocious that had been ever introduced into Par- 'lament, and it should have his most decided opposition. —( Cheers, and cries of " Divide.") Sir CHA S. LEMON said it was always painful to him to withhold his support from the Noble Lord below him, but when be beard of the abuses of the Irish system reiterated night after night, he felt himself bound to vote for the second reading of the Noble Lord's Bill. He certainly did not participate in the views of those who said that their object was to effect the Repeal of the Union, to destroy the Irish Church, and that legislative power which had been established by the Union, and con firmed by the Reform Bill. He entertained no sympathy with those persons, but ho must say that after the scene that had lately passed in that House it was evident that the subject could not be discussed with anything like calmness or temper.—( Hear, hear.) They had been told that if the Bill were postponed it would be impossible to pass it during the present session. Now he felt very much inclined tore. tort and to say that if they spent night alto night, discussing what could not lead to any practical result, the opportu n it y of passing the English Bill wo u ld b e l ost.—( Hear. ) Looking at the question in a practic a l po i nt of view, he felt con vinead that no good would result from their forcing the Bill through Committee. In supporting the motion of the Hon Member for Halifax, he did so on different grounds from those of the three Cr four preceding speakers. Nor did he mean by it to obstruct the project of the Noble Lord if br oug h t forward at a proper period. Mr. SL ANEY had no hesitation in giving his vote in favour of th e mot i on of the Hon. Member for Halifax, be cause they would therby have an opportunity of considering the question on English instead of on Irish ground. In the present temper of th e H ouse i t was i m p os sible that the question could undergo a f a i r an d i mpart i a l cons ideration. Mr. O'CONNELL did not mean to detain the House many minutes. He thought that those Gentlemen who had b een rather indifferent to the Irish view of the ques tion, should seriously consider what bad fallen from the Hon. Member for Cornwall. He had iieclined giving any assent to Irish objects, but in order to carry out that view of the case, the House should recollect what the effect of an adv erse vote wou ld be upon Ireland. Would they con ciliate it to the c onnection—would it make the Union more durable—would they make the people of Ireland feel a greater inclination to continue the Union in its pro: sent state ? Was there a single Member of that House who EVENING EDITION thought so? Not one.—(Hear, hear.) The argument was to assimilate the two countries, but he (Mr. O'Con. nell) would say assimilate them entirely, and the first point on which assimilation should be made was as related to the franchise, and if the Irish have fair play ou that subject, let it be first ascertained the best system of regis tration for England, arid let them apply that afterwards to Ireland. That was all he contended for at present. It was admitted that the EngEsh system requirea amend ment, and what lie asked the House was, first to see what amendment the English registration system required, and then consider how far those amendments were appli cable to Ireland. He would rather they had their own national interests to consider than devising a system for Ireland. Let them refuse that, and he asked, did they put an argument in anybody's mouth in favour cf the Union. They refused the people of Ireland the betefit of a comparison. They insisted on disfranching seven tenths of the voters of Ireland, and let any man say under such circumstances that the Union was a good thing and ought to continue. All he asked was that the English question should be settled in the first instance, and then let the Irish people have the benefit of the ins . provernents.—(t,ties of Question," and " Divide." Mr. V. STUART, amidst cries of " Divide," said be felt that the difficulties of Irish registration would never be settled till the qualification had a good test given it. The House divided, For the amendment Against it Majority —ll ADDRESS TO HER MAJESTY. A Message from the Lords brought down (we believe) their Lordships' concurrence with the Commons —and ou the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL the House agreed to meet at at half-past one to-morrow to take up the address. Sir D. NORRE YS then rose to bring forward bis motion for an instruction to the Committee, that every person (otherwise qualified) who should have for two years paid the poor-rates, on a fixed valuation, should vote, This, he said, had struck many Members on both sides as the best way to obviate the perplexities of the unfortunate " beneficial interest." All that he would ask the House was, to recognise the principle, that a new qualification should be established, instead of that which occasioned all the evils, the fraud and perjury, which it was the object of the present Bill to terminate. He concluded by moving that it be an " instruction to the Committee on the Regis t•ation of Voters (Ireland) Bill, to enable every person otherwise qualified, who shall have, for the period of one year, paid poor-rates on a valuation of per annum, to register his vote." The motion having been seconded, and the question put, Lord STANLEY said he had waited for a few mo ments, from the consideration that this was a question upon which the Noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell), or the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General for Ireland, might think it necessary to express an opinion, as the motion proposed an alteration of the franchise in Ireland. No man regretted more than he did the doubt thrown upon the meaning of the words " beneficial interest" in the Irish Reform Act.—( Hear, hear.) He knew well what passed in the House of Com mons when those words were introduced.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. O'Connell.) They were intended to have the same force as the words in the English Reform Act for which they were substituted, and upon which no English Barrister had started the least doubt.—( Hear.) He would be glad to see that much cexata ygeatiu.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But the motion of the Hon. Gentleman seemed to be a new proposal—for the basis of the whol e elective franchise of the count r y—of a qualification which was studiously left blank by the Hon. Gentleman who pro posed it.—( Hear, hear.) Exclusive of that he (Lord Stanley) objected to the time when the proposition was introduced—( Ilear)—becauie if one thing were more un derstood than another, from the time when the Bill was introduced up to the present moment, it was that the re. gistration alone should be considered, and that everything relating to the franchise should be excluded from the dis cussion.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord (Lord J. Rue sell) and the Solicitor-General for Ireland had separated the two questions of the registration and the fran a chile in the Bills for England and Ireland.—( Hear s ) For his part, .he should be most anxious and willing, 'to adopt any course consistent with iris duty to suppott any measure which would tend to get rid of the mistakes and errors (to use r.o harsher term) which were commit ed daily in the registration. But he did not think that this was the proper opportunity, as the Bill before the House related to the registration alone.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. WARBURTON did not agree with the Noble Lord that this was an improper occasion for bringing for ward a measure relating to the franchise in Ireland. The objectof this Bill was to take advantage of a fraud which had been practised upon the people of Ireland as to the franchise which they were to possess. It was unjust end absurd to force on this Bill for the registration, until it had been defined what the franchise should be. In one of the discussions which took place upon the Bill which at companied the Catholic Emancipation Act, the Noble Lord declared that it was enough for the tenant to prove that he had a beneficial interest in his lease, to the amount of his qualification, without proving that another person would give him ten poueds a-year in addition to the rent. By the interpretation which had since been put upon the words " beneficial interest," an actual fraud had b. en practised upon the people of Ireland.—( Hear.) By means of that interpretation numbers were already deprived of the franchise to which they were rightfully en. titled, and which it was the intention of the Legislature to confer upon them. The Noble Lord's Bill, at the same, time that it diverted everything relating to the registry, adopted that unjust and fraudulent interpretation. Was it not time, then, that the House should refuse to consent to a new Bill fir enforcing the most strict reg stration, without first making clear w h a t t h e f ranc hi se to be regis tered should he ? He would, therefore, support the iv struction. Mr. S. O'BRIEN regretted that there had been such lavish censure cast upon the people of Ireland, by Hon. Gentlemen opposite. He hoped his Hon. Friend would have no objection to insert in the blank the words "tett pounds," and then he would vote for the motion. Lord MORPETH then rose and said—The Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire had expressed his sur f rise that neither he nor any other Member of the Go vernment had risen after the Honourable Baronet. It was not necessary for any Member of the Government, while so many Irish Gentlemen were ready to join issue with the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear.) But the Govern ment would not be backward in proposing such amend ments as they thought necessary, if the Bill proceeded. He quite agreed with his Hon. Friend, who had moved this instruction, that none of the Bills placed the qualifi cation upon a satisfactory basis. He thought the meesure which the Government had proposed a much better one than the Noble Lord's ; and if the Noble Lord persisted in cramming down their throats his measure s they were bound to meet him with a measure which they thought more safe and less pernicious.__( Hear, hear.) The par ticular in which he thought the Bill of the Noble Lord, and their own Bill was deficient was, that they both leP the qualification to rest upon what he conceived the gr eat source of all the evils complained of. It might be 'asked why had the Government not made a proposition, them selves upon that subject ? It would give him Lord Mor peth ) greet pleasure to encounter ° Ale difficulty of settli ng t h e prec i se amount the qualifi cation ; but it did seem to hi position of the sort would have . , b een 7.1 that any pro premature at the present moment, and for because there was no rate I :aese threw reasons—first. ree valuation in Ireland at pre sent on which they ...ald fix the franchise ; secondly, because he looked ',iron the good and peaceable working Poor-lay in Ireland to be a matter of such incalcu of the Poor lable imP"'lcance, far beyond all political and party con flicts. '.nat he was anxious the original valuation and first rem should be established and fixed upon before they at tended to any thing so political as the ascertainment of' the franchise ; and, thirdly, because he thought until they saw what the general effect of the valuation was, it would be working too much in the dark to fix the whole elective franchise of Ireland upon any amount of rate not at pre sent in existence. He protested against any appeal being given against the franchise until they had distinctly settled the qualification, because it would be a fraudulent; and indirect mode of abridging the franchise. However, the question relative to Irish Registration might be settled during the present session, he would not abandon the hope that Parliament would, ere long, place the qualification upon a fixed, known, settled, and impartial rating. Mr. LUCAS thought dee House was indebted te the Hon. Member opposite fo aving introduced this subject; but in consequence of the excitement which prevailed after the very close division that had taken place, very little of what the Hon. Gentleman had stated reached his (Mr. Lucas's) side of the House. He hoped, therefore, the Hon. Gentleman would postpone his proposition for the present, in order that it might receive due consideration. Mr. RE DINGTON would vote for the motion of the Hon. Member foe Mallow. Af.er a few words from Mr. SLANE Y, Mr. O'CONNELL said it was of the utmost im portance that the House should consider the Bill, so that there might be satisfactory decisions upon it, both by judi cial persons its Ireland, and by Committees of that House. The rating clauses were a fit subject to be considered is Committee. The Noble Lord who had just sat down had expressed his doubts as to the propriety of mixing the Poor-law with the franchise. Why, the Poor-rates was already mixed up with the franchise, because it was the basis of franchise in Corporations, and was the basis upon which the Irish Corporation Bill had gone from that House to the Lords. The Poor-rate was therefore already made the basis of the franchise in cities and boroughs, and he did not think there would be much danger in extending it to counties. There was nothing so uncertain as the valuation, and the House ought to go into Committee for the purpose of seeing if they could not find out a fran. chise that would exclude perjury and false swearing_ The Noble Lord boasted that his Bill contained no defini tion of the franchi ; ',but that appeared to him to be one of the greatest dere< o :the B:11. They attempted to re gulate the franchise before determining what the franchi se seas ._( Hear, be ar.) At present tbat w as uncerta i n, and opened a wide door to the imputations of perjury and , ca lumny against an entire country and people. I t was well I k n own that the most opposite opinions were d a il y pro. I nounced by the most eminent legal authorities in Ireland, from the difficulty of defining what the franchise really was . Nothing could be more dangerous to the public tranquillity in Ireland than to have it supposed that the Judges were mere political p art i zans. In 1829, the Noble Lord considered " the solvent tenant" test would make the franchise a 20/. instead of a 101. franchise. In 1832, his opinion appeared to have undergone a change, and he wished to know how the Noble Lord could reconcile his contradictory opinions on the Reform Bill of 182/6 and the Reform Bill of 1832. 'lihe Noble Lord substituted dif ferent words in the Bill of 1832 for those of 1829, show. ing that he had alt.( ed his opinion, and the words inserted in the new clause were " beneficial interest." It was idle, therefore, to attempt to disguise the fact. The people of Ireland knew and felt it, and until these difficultiea were put on end to they would have the same differences of opinion among the Judges and the Assistant-Barristers, and the same contradictory evidence as to the qualification of the party seeking to register. He should therefore vote for the motion of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Mallow, belies kg that it would best secure the objects of a fair and impartial registration in Ireland.