The Sun. — London, England, 1847-02-05 00:00:00

rat- Ye. leir ;ret ave :tee ItYr ,ort 1111 the La last ell bf 90a 'n ot IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. frOuSE OF LOUDS, 'el.. 4. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack shortly after Five o'clock. POOR REMOVAL ACT. The Duke of RICHMOND presented petitions from • several places in Sussex against the Poor Removal Act, the inhabitants of which believed that it was a hardship to the poor, and calculated to increase the poor-rates. Lord BEAUMONT thought that en observation ought to be made on these petitions. It was a mistake to sup- Pose that this Act was a hardship on the poor; for it ° illy provided for the removal of the poor. It might, indeed, increase the poor-rates, but that was an evil which would work its own remedy; for if the landlords pulled down cottages, they would b e obliged to build them up again when they wanted labourers, as no man could travel more than a certain distance to his work. The Bill blight have been clumsily drawn, but its real effect was to prevent the removal of the poor without their own consent. The Duke of RICHMOND quite agreed with hie Noble Friend in the latter part of his observations, viz., that this Act was clumsily drawn, for he believed that no two lawyers in England agreed in the con struction of the Act. But with respect to the hardship which it occasioned to the poor be totally differed, for he believed that the Act had been . Productive of the greatest hardship to the labouring Poor, especially to those aged couples who had borne a good character through lile; for it had in those cases tended to reduce that out-door relief to which they were from their circumstances entitled. And if the Govern Silent would grant him a commission he would engage to Prove that in innumerable instances the Act had in that way Thege Particularly hulailyy ofthe been productive of the greatest hardships. people of the country were at present against union settlements, and he participated irjthat feeli ng . H e would much regret the pass i ng o f the o t n I*g re a'u ' sa great evils would arise out of it. objectionth eerecter of was so b a d t o t h e poor as cont i nua lly c hanging the poor-laws. He had no parts of the to .the amendment of the harsh poor-law, but he did not think the proposed new law of settlement of such a character. Lord BEAUMONT agreed with the Noble Duke that the proposed law of settlement would operate un satisfactorily. Lord BROUGHA Al also agreed with the Noble Dnke, that whatever was found in the law to be unsatisfactory • should be amended. He would not do so from a desire to propitiate clamour, or because it was unpopular, for a clement. might be got up against anythng, but because While on this subject, he begged leave to correct Jul error into which he had been led by an esteemed cor respondent, whom he had always hitherto found correct. flaying made the error the other evening in a statement ae (Lord Br o ugham) had made respecting pauperism in Liverp oo l, he now took the earliest opportunity of - c orrecting 'it: He had stated that those who es tablished — the soup kitchens in that town bad stopped the supplies on Sunday to the poor. It a PPears that this was not correct; no such distinction, it appears, was made. He was exeeedingly loath to say anything of those who were engaged in the pious work of charity, though he had received another e 2 . l ntnunication from Glasgow, about which t h er e could r no mistake. The letter contained a sou p kitchen ticket, on which was printed that the bearer blight be supplied on any day but Sunday. The same spirit was shown on a recent occasion, when a most extensive fire occurred in Glasgow. The fire took Place on a Sunday, and the Stamp-office, which adjoined, wa s in danger of bein g destroyed, yet no assistance could b e go t f rom Edinburgh, because the rail way was shut up on that days the proprietor of the building also lived in Edinburgh, and though his presence was imperatively required in Glasgow, it was impossible for him to get through. The mail train departed with the mail bags, for the con veyance of which the railway company received so much ° Year, but the directors of that railway most positively refused to allow a messenger to go with the train to s ummon the owner of the burning premises to come to Glasgow., And it was because he saw charity ""us tainted with fanaticism (for not to attend to w orks of charity, necessity, and mercy, was fa natacism in the highest degree) that he was induced to speak to their Lordships on the subject. The Noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) might just as well be blamed for having fought his glorious battle of Waterloo, June the 18th, which was Sunday. Per. hags, however, the Noble Duke was not aware of the fact of its being Sunday, or he would, no doubt, have deferred giving the French battle until another day.— (Laughter.) With respect to the immense influx of Irish paupers into Liverpool, he held in his hand a statement which showed that 3,841 persons came into that Port in two days. The number of persons who landed in Liverpool from Cork, was Sligo Drogheda Newry Dublin and these in two days. It was a most serious affair, and imposed great hardship upon the people of Liverpool. He would suggest to the Government the propriety and necessity of taking into consideration the state of the English as well as the Irish poor. He knew it had been said by some persons, " that the Irish people bad no need to 'despair so long as there was a single guinea left in the English Treasury." He totally dissented from such a proposition. It had also been suggested that the Government should buy corn and sell it at a cheap rate. That wou ld b e th e wors t p oss ibl e thi ng ;at could be done. In a time of scarcity. the greatest blessing that could happen was for the prices of ru ui to rise considerably, because it always pro s.eted tendency to frugality and economy. The result of cheapness in a time of dearth was to con vert dearth i nto scarc i ty, an d scarc it y i n t o th e mos t Wanted forms of famine. It gave him great pain to re new these ob serva ti ons , b u t h e c onfessed he did so b Pleasant task to utter harsh truths, but unless he did _ he should not discharge his duty to the public. deprecated the mania that was gaining ground to tYle reve nue must y i e ld re li e f t o th e I r ish poor and tverish landlords. If such a system was persisted in, e .! par would be one of comparative prosperity com r77l to its successors. e a n s s e d n r g e e t r u s r n f r s o . m the Commons brought up several CHELSEA PENSIONERS. rem; Duke of WELLINGTON proposed the first laterite of this Bill. In doing so, he said it was not his on 0 7° 11 to address any observations to their Lordsh i ps ab e ime subject, except that the Bill was inten d e d to pe Ish the poundage heretofore deducted from the ttu i r °l4 of those gallant men—the Chelsea pensioners— zimsequently to promote their welfare and interests. e Bill was read a first time. • POOR-LAW. hi l 4b r d, • DENMAN presented a petition from a parish p ra Froe'shire complaining of the present poor-laws, and th e J l r'g for its immediate amendment, particularly that Poor ought to be supported by the public. T he Marqui s OF FOOD IN IRELAND. fro he M arquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition tu the mayor, aldermen, and burgesses of Cork, Fay e,their Lordships to cause measures to be taken to 4. 4 e ; 8 h the price of food in that county. He u to state that lie entirely concurred ( r ahe observation of his Noble and Learned Friend oreat;._ Brougham) with respect to the impolicy of R e "Ig an artificial dimunition of the prices of food. of co g an mention several places where this reduction k b Prtees had l e d t o th e mos t gr i e vous scarcity; the week as ° wing that in which such reductions were made, e ,._ the s h op k eepers retuse d to se ll th e i r i: w nlodities at t h e re d uce d p r i c es, the adjoin t'g far mers discontinued to send into the towns L i e usual supplies. It was the duty of the Government riatteniove all ob s t ruc ti ons t o t h e su pply o f f oo d, and they IEI 2 therefor e , d one a ll i n th e i r p ower t o carr y su pplies of food to those places which were not easily accessible. ANTICIPATED SCARCITY IN THIS COUNTRY. The Duke of RICHMOND—I think it is desirable that it Should not go forth to the whole of the country, th4l t there is likely to be a great dearth of provisions in this country. It is said, in many parts of England that there will be a scarcity of corn, and that all the evils of a far aine may be apprehended. Now, I believe that that is not the case, as I believe that there is a Feat deal of corn in the hands of persons in this country. Besides, when, coupled with this, we see such largo imports of grain from the United States, there is little reason for the people to consider that this country wilt have to encounter a famine. I, for one, have no apprehension of a famine here.—(Hear.) .Lord BRULTGRANI was understood to say that the most senseless clamour had . been raised against the corn merchants as being as serty injurious persons, in hey really were• and if stead of being represent. d, . this clamour were to be continued it must be productive of great miechief. Earl FITZ WILLIAM had not the slightest doubt but that the supply of wheat, both in England Ireland, Was insufficient for those who were consumers of wheat. This would necessarily be absorbed, and certainly the finer qualities of wheat would be scarce, and, Perhaps, there might be a scarcity in the secondary qualities also; but he was anxious to correct one mistake which might be inj urious out of doors. That Was the impression created by the words of his Noble an d L earne d F r iend, and he was anxious to cor rect the notion that the people of England were suffer.. lug anything like the same destitution as that which is e g 3 ertenced in Ireland. The people of Ireland were 11 .,_°t consumers of wheat, but of other pr oduce ; and as t he Potato crop had totally failed, the want was not only felt in , Ireland, but there was absolute destitution. ' la was a noti on w hi c h he earnestly desired to co r r ect, reu for if it were not corrected, it . might lead to a relaxation lo4i.sthose o p e l ff e o f r r t o s m w s h t i e c r h ve w t e ie r e e . indispensable to relieve the h L ' ° rd BROUGHAM was anxious to explsin that he -,,ad never entertained the idea that the destitution in whe n was in any degree equal to that in Ireland. Is e ! l _ 4 in he made the observations to which his Noble % .;', l ",let referred he had in his eye Glasgow, Liverpool, Bristol, the ports on the western coast, where a scarcity of corn had been severely felt. The : ..3 at which he desired to bring under their exertions notice was the fact, that while great of 'Lions had been made for the relief of Ireland nothing olulything like the same effort had been manifest,ed for fa gf, Poor of Scotland and England. He found no 4 4 with the contributions that had been made we the suffering poor in Ireland. In his r:ton it did the people of this country leoeeshonour, for all classes had equally exerted th , M.- eount to succour tho.e whom he would call their fellew hie . t lreen, and aiming the most active was that amia thought a t e ci x n c l e y l lent body, the Society of Friends, who, a small community, had contributed THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 5, 1847. sufficient. There sat beside him a gentleman who I was chairman of the management of 1,700 miles of railway, who Lad the conduct of 45,000,0001., and he v a prepared to pledge his commercial eharact,r that Government could not lose ono single farthing by this proposition. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Lord Mayor of York would tell the House that the worst railway under hi 3 direction would afford 7per cent. • security to Government; and he himielf would he pre pared to show that the worst railway in Bel2iutn or Scot land would amply pay-for the money expended on them. He was now speakina of passenger-traffic. It was here entirely a question of passengers.—(Hear, hear.) -Well, then, he had said that his proposition was, that Govern ment should lend out at interest money at that rate at which they borrowed. He believed that the interest now was 31. 6s Bd. per cent. But he would assume it to be 31 per cent. Govern ment were to take the security on the entire loan There would then be 71. oil 2001. The line that paid 21 6s. Bd. per cent. would afford for the interest of Governmenti He would show this from the Ar iroath , and Forfar line, which cost 9,0001. The •=receipts upon that line were for the first fear 46 . V., and the cost of the working of the line was 2021., IJairing to Government a clear interest, be sides 2/. per :cent. for the shareholders. To show what that line -was, he must tell the House that all the traffic which existed previous to the con struction of that railway from Arbroath to For far amounted to what could be carried on a one-horsed carrier which plied once a-week.—(Hear, hear, and a 1au...,h.) The passenger-traffic daily, at present, was 247 persons, and last year ninety thousand pas sengers, and paid five per cent. to the shareholders. Having selected the worst line in the empire, and taken, it in its earliest infancy to show that the security would be wholly sufficient, he had now to show to the House the grounds on which he confideStly expected that the passing of this measure would have the effect of stimulating English capital's's, and that they would forthwith set to work to complete the railways in Ireland. But before he went on to do so, his Hon. Friend behind him (Mr. Hudson) reminded him that he ought to have stated that this security of 1001. properly expended for every 2001. they asked was a security unquestioned. They proposed to make the Railway Commissioners, a board which is responsible to both Houses of Parliament, an efficient board for the purpose of dealing out those loans to the companies. They proposed to throw the entire responsibility upon those Commissioners for the due perfortnause of their duties; and unless they shall report that the railway at once pro mises to be beneficial to the country, and also unless reasonable and sufficient security be given, the State is not to be called upon to subscribe, or to advance any money upon the enterprise. He was going on to show in what position the proposition would place the share holders, and it would be at once clear to the House, that whilst the Government would gain four per cent., it would pay twelve to the shareholder on every 3001. laid out. He would take a railway, of all others in Ireland, which was looked upon as of-the utmost national import auce, and comprises the greatsst number of shareholders. He would take the Waterford and Limerick Railway. Now, the position of the Waterford and Limerick Rail way was this : it was estimated that the cost of the railway would be 750,000/., but they had taken power to borrow 250,000/. more, and he was assured, from the gene ral experience of all railways which had been constructed in this country and in Scotland, that be should not be safe, unless he estimated the amount of the cost of the railway not only the estimated capital but also of the loans which they had power to take. Ile assumed, therefore, that the Waterford and Limerick Railway would cost 1,000,000/. sterling before it• was com pleted. They had already expended 324,000/. in the construction of different works—(Hear, hear)--: but they were stopped for want or money, and the consequence was, that though 271. 10s. had been paid up of each 501. share, those shares were at from 12 to 14 discount. So that, in point of fact, ihe ' market value of the 324.0001. so expended on the Waterford and Limerick Railway was 162,0001 Now, under h's proposition, it would not be necessary to make any further vain calls on the shareholders, as the company would be entitled at once to demand from the Government a loan equal to 648,0001. What would be the effect of this ? It had been estimated that the traffic of the railway would admit of a dividend on a capital of 750,0001. of 64 per cent. But considering that the true expenditure would be not 750,0001., but 1,000,000/. sterling ; that would give 5 per cent. ae the probable dividend on the entire cost of the railway. But her Majesty's Government came in and lent them two-thirds of their capital at 31 per cent. The result would be that the 324,0001. share capital already expended, would have a fair and early prospect of a dividend of 8 per cent. The effect of such a course would be, that the shares of that Com pany, instead of being dead in the market, instead of being at a discount of 162.0001.. would instantly rise to a premium, and the landed proprietary and tenantry of Ireland being unable to meet the calls upon them, would be enabled to get rid of their shares at a premium, and employ the money so obtained in the improvement of their estates, and in giving employment to the people of Ireland ; so that his propositions would have a double effect ; it would at once set to work an immense number of persons, and it would enable the landed proprietors, who were now shareholders in the concern, to make use of the money for the improvement of their estates and the employment of the people. He had a letter from Lord Glengall, stating that he knew a railway company which, if they had money, were prepared to employ. 16,000 men.—(Hear, hear.) In the counties of Kilkenny, Limerick, and Water ford, as well as in each of the four baronies, a similar result would take place.—(Hear.) Now, in each of these places the expenditure under the present ment sessions had been at the rate of 4,0001. per month for the last three months, with every prospect of these demands being continued—(Cries of " bear, hear.") And there was this additional objection to this expendi ture, that it was upon useless and unproductive works. A magic influence had, however, come over the Govern ment, and they had allowed money to be advanced on the earth-works of railways on the security of pre sentments. He thought the course he proposed, —namely, to advance money on the security of railways —would . be much better than on the security of land. The proposal of lending money to railways in the security of land was made in 1839, and when first proposed, was carried by a majority, but her Majesty's Government would not assent to the proposal. He considered this ~a wrong course, and the result showed that be was r i g ht in coming to such a conclusion, for while the lands along side of which railways passed were increased in value to the amount of 1,0001. per cent., the land along the railways in the old channels of comm un i ca ti on remained st ationar y When he was upon this su bj ec t o f the southern districts'of Irel an d, it was only fa ir to state that the Waterford and Limerick Railway Company were prepared to empl o y 16,000 men up on their works. But he would rea d the applicat ion mede by the Chairman of th e Great Southern and l Western Railway Company to the Government, on the 22d of May, of_ the last year. Mr. George Care,. a... the chairman of the Great Southern and Wes ern ltil way Company, addressed a letter to Sir Robert Peel, in which he stated that, after consulting the contractors,um he found that, if they were acconamodated with l a n s eous of 500.000 L, they would undertake to give 'i a rna d r ifferent employment to many thousand persons pardons of their line, and the writer in the added, that the utmost care would he taken . ._ a sinem payment of the wages to adopt ti m e of wise economy, while a t the same t.e_min_ a great extent of relief would be afforded to n V t still would don of the different counties, and Gov ernmeuilso inclosed be remunerated for the money advanced• H el ed to the a copy of a letter which he had addressl of the letter Secretary of Public Works in 't wit ' s 200 after stating that the length of line of the miles, and that the dense populatiuon ._ Tipperary, towns along the line, from Temp'ereore to condition, had long been known for their discontentedevil excepting and there was no means of alleviating Ties I might safely Ire land and by an employment of the people. Pie and idle, who would b - e t Pby the receipt of lion of comparative com tor and their families wages would render them . _ the wages assert, that 50,000 poor fellowslaced i n n ow a sta c r o v n i d n i i.e . happy of July and August. Now, he would the months namely,, to reflect on this offer of the -Bon• Memb.rs have • half the expenses of these ( Southern and Western Company . Great during the mos t te t r r n yi c ng om p p e a r n io y d to o e t enploy Bares y soo 00 have prevented the necessity es , et consequence ents for the maintenance of the Irish rea ' t contractor of Ireland, who u u ,:d l n d Itioavepae:hibited a true wisdom and' a this, he had a communication In addition to poor. wthans sopped on o m n o a ne h y un to dr g e o d o a n rei w t i w th o from Mr. Garvan, get p • ) the land, and un re int es of ruilw ltipatteaebair;erheecioraansli 0 ; 1 ,pm i dtryel:sVuaopn m a had taken contracts for d hundred, partly in g three h d d 1 ay, I::m se i s g s h io t n , (lifowever, be said ne , x , t day, employ thirty thou sand only affect those counties that if he were at liberty the works. to pro ceed, he could, upon b,pu:funi partly net Ilsoiyetuotetutta belayt au t o • ts.eHottihneiaeanbsttlttehaohtefreteos et, h e shvehaic:ani‘iwidoeucs Messrs. Bidder not ros beT Those torsaaenvde countiesrssei by t ar i , were,rwa i h l 0 - passed; through which the railroads but he begged to of the one thous tell the Hone, that out . and three hun dred railway for which and forty miles of of 1845 and 18 Acta were that e i his . ---- proposal (li ear hear.) w od passed in the sessions 46, and previous to that, the result was, tha . t . there were but four coun ties ys ia_l ( re a la e n ar d , , said, that of all the Mayo, Sligo, Galway, and , s t o h n is was of the greatest Bsilolnimon. There were already before the House . s for the extension of a line from Athlone to Galway, which would traverse one end of the county of Roscommon and pass through the centre of Galway. This was a line which those in telligent gentlemen, country, and a line which would pay at least five per cent. to the share wior ntehpreeorrtaprojectedemployednce to o ti byhiue lines of railway, f S r: t ri e el p w h ou e t). n . helders. There could not be a doubt, if this measure were to pass, that another branch from th e Midl an d and Great Western Railway would be made, passing from Longford to Sligo, t h ro ugh a very fine mineral district, which, according to the report of the Railway Commis sieners in the yesr 1842, contained the finest description could not the richest and most luxuriant ore, but which not be worked at present for want of railway communi cation.—(Cheers.) There was a Bill before the House also for a line which would be carried on to Cavan there would not thi 1 be a single county in Jr. lend' which would not be traversed by a railway.—(Hear.) Acts had been passed empowering companies to complete 1,522 miles oe railway. 'There were b fore , the House at that moment Bills for 159 miles more, and there were the lines which had already bees carried out, mak:ng; together 1,970 miles of railsviy, of which 123 were made, 164 were In the course of construction, leaving 200 miles of margin of railway to be allowed by the Railway Com- .•••••=lllCa . - the munificent utsum of 730,000. They kept their charities in eceir crwri nt• a society of their extent .this was: truly, munificent ; and he trusted that this efficient aid would be continued until the distress had passed by... What he meant to say was that the Government could not preventkthe famine; and he never desired-to assertthat the distress suffered by the poor in this country was at all equal to that which was to be met with in Ireland.. REDUCTION OF THE DUTY ON RUM. The Dukeof . RICHMOND presented a petition from the landed proprietors, farmers, and other persons inte rested in the agriculture of the ;county of Cermarthen, against - the proposed reduction of the duty on rum. Also, a petition from a place in Scotland, the name of which did not reach the gallery, to the same effect. The Noble Duke hoped the Government would not press any measure of a permanent nature until the parties interested bad been heard against the proposition. This was but just to them, •'as they complained of being taken by surprise by the measure introduced by the Government. He felt certain that if the reduction in the rum, duty was made it would only cause greater exertion to be made for the repeal of the malt-tax. THE SUPPRESSION OF CRACOW. The,Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid on the table certain .papers, which he stated had been delayed in order that they might be laid complete on the table of the House... They were the last of the series relating to the annexation of Cracow to the Austrian empire, and con tinued the correapondence with the Austrian Government on thatsubiect. He also, by the command of her Majesty, laid on the table of the House.the first annual report of the Board of Superviaion of the Poor-laws in Scotland. The House then adjourned at Six o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 4. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. NEW MEMBER. Mr. PRYME took the oaths an►d his seat far West Sussex, in the place-of Colonel Wyndham. STANDING ORDERS. . . Mr. STRUTT proposed. alterations in standing order No. 13, so as te."assinigate the'_ proof of the standing orders by affidavit, in. Scotland, to that which is required in the case of Ireland, under standing order No. 14. Mr. SMNEY,I7IEBI3BRT conceived that this would be an alteration of great service in removing an incon veniencethat had been x felt in the'Committee of Private Bills. Mr. ESTCOURT explained•tha.t this alteration was intended to be made last session, and it was only through a mistake that it did not appear st,that time. ng TFORD UNION. Mr. GODSON presented a petition from the guar dians of this union, praying that a correspondence between themselves and ,the poor -law Commissioners, relative to the exriense which had been incurred in the provision of. the . Christmas dinner of the paupers, which expense had been uniformly allowed from the year 1835, when the union was formed, to the year 1844, but in the - present instance the auditor of the district had disallowed theliutlay, TEN HOURS' BILL. Lord Jourz M:timpns WAKLEY presented petitions from Huddersfield and other places in favour of a Ten HoUrs' Bill. HARBOUR `CONSERVANCY. Sir R. FERGUSON presented a petition from Lon donderry for the repeal• of the- Harbour Conservancy Act. • POOR REMOVAL ACT. Mr. B. DENISON premntedle petition from Doncas er against the Poor Aemoval Net. , Colonel T. WOOD piesented . lt, similar petition from he Bradford 'Non. TAXES,.. Mr. WAKLEY„presented a.petition from a police man named Webb,..stating that ;he. had, unfortunately for himself and his creditors, been sixteen years in debt, but that during the whole tinge he had been paying in direct taxes, and during the last five years direct taxes. He praysid that he and other Englishmen who were in debt should be relieved from taxation. He prayed the House to take the sul*ctinto'consideration, and be. lieved that the House, would grant his petition. TEN HOUitS? BILL. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL presented petitions from several places in favour . of • the Ten Hours' Bill. THE:RAJA OF SATTARA. - Sir DE LACY t VANS prientkd a petition from a public meeting of the inhabitants of the city of West minster, praying for an inquiry,itito the circumstances which had led to 'the dethronement of the Raja of Sattara. • ------- IMPORTATION OF CORN. Dr. BOWRING rose to call the attention of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs to the report, that a qtantity of corn bound for this country had been detained at Ancona by au ordor, of the Pope. CRACOW. _ _ Mr. HUME - gave notice of his intention to bring under th 4 consider.ation of the House, on an early day, the recent proceedings relating to the suppression of the republic of Cracow. THE WINDOW-TAX. Lord DUNCAN gave notice that he would, on an early day, bring forward a motion for the repeal of the window-tax. - '• - AMENDMENT OF . THE ,REFORM ACT. Mr. T: S. DirNdONIBE postponed his motion for leave to hring in a f ill to repeal *t he rate-paying clauses Oof the Reform A till that day fortnight. AMENDMENT OF RAILWAY ACTS. Mr. STRUTT gave notice that, on Tuesday next, he would move for.leave to hring - -in a Bill to amend the existing laws relating to railways. TAX ON ABSENTEES. Mr. SMITH O'BRIE N postponed till that day fort night his motion relating tc,o an ithsentee tax for Ireland. IRISH IijSTRESS. Mr. DANIEL O'dA.LL4OIIA.N presented a petition from the Corporation of,,Cerk;:praying the House to adopt some speedy measures in order to stop the spread of disease in Ireland, consequent upon the distress of that country. • • ENFRANGHISEMENT OF COPYHOLDS. Mr. AGLIONBX wished-to ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Government whether he would allow him, so soon as the present press of Irish business was over, to ask him what course the Government meant to pursue with respect to the enfranchisement of copyholds, and whether it was the intention of the Government to carry into effect the recommendation of the Select Com mittee, that under certain regulations the enfranchise ment of copyhOlds•shmild 'be rendered compulsory? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he would be quite ready to'answer any. question of the Hon. Member upon the subject next week. Mr. AGLIONBY said he would take the opportunity next week of putting a question upon the subject. IRISH COLLEGES. Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN stated that, upon an early day, he ssould ask the Noble L'ord at the head of the Governdlent whatOotirsethey had taken, or intended to take, upon; the sub jec t Of Irish colleges. He believed, that at eitesent, - the prellidiniry - wdrks had had not even commenced. 7 ' Lord LOHN RUSSELL, said the subject had occu pied considerable attention on the part of the Govern ment. His Hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland had devoted t onsidereble time to , the consideration of the subject. He (Lord J. Rusiell) hoped that the difficulties which 14tihtoottin'thd way' of tlie progress of the col leges would be shprtly . .temoved. He could not at preseit state the .arraii,;eineiats which had been made, as • they Were not yet completed. When however,,tbey were rfinally.:resolved upon, he would be ready to answer any, questiVa of- :the Hon. Member. CHARITABLE TRUSTS. - - - Mr. HUME said that,4cf-tnortow. he would ask the Noble Loyd at the.head of.tbe3GrOi•ernment, what course the Government intended to juirSue with respect to a Bill for tale reg4l4tiioii .if TEN. notws- Mr. BtßNAL.:presentecr V . .p . egtion in favour of the Ten Hours' . . . Pool. ;.RtgOVAt,BILL. Mr. BANKES. wished a replY . to .the following ques tion from the Attorney-Gentral.;, r -Whether he had any objection"to produce the opinion 'which he gave to the Poor-law Commissioners:on- Ilia- -subject of the Poor Removall'Aill of last session ?. * The ATTORNF I XIQEIc/tßAll,felt indebted to his Hon. Frtto l d foe haviti AP iiiin-'notice of the question which be incerid , ii . to 1:44 , ' ' .1K 46 '- far as he was per sonally c.ohcerui 0, he 4.4104i1 f have- no objection, it he had the option' ev-pro‘inbe - if. It `vas not in his posses sion, and ft , could . not. furnish .hint with the purport of it from fecollectioh.' - Ile believ6a, however, it was not the practice in that Houee,.o7 . olWwhere, to call for the productie of the, epi4ts,Of...9Ounsel. — (Hear, hear, from Sir James 'Graham:)' lie had no control over the opinion after it war, gfitem-ralear, hear.) Mr. BANKES then, „gave Totice that, to-morrow, he should move for the pradtMtioh -Of the opinion of the Poor-law Commissioner is 'whose possession it was. ',-, .. RAILWAYS IN IRELAND. Lord qEORG.E .I,3ENTI,NCK., . in rising to move for .. . leave to bring in a .Bill to stimulate the prompt and pro fitable eiiiployrisent -of- th•arople by the encouragement of railwv''s-in Ireland said,, Wel 'although he had often experienced theundeserved and kind encouragement of that Ilobie on ,- fottAro4asii.)itir, ' still he had never felt that so nriich nt6(-kd it its on the present occa sion, wkten, for the firs t;ti . ine, - ,11; was going to introduce a de nl ep e lY su c re ou ' c i e a rn vv ed. hicll I k t te t ii i ivtie u6 r t e i s i t ) s at o h f hfisltcaonuy want o ntrywere f confide* in the.inty in - sie:lntkof e the e measure which he was going to. introdncr to . bad the'lillexreOnfiderii;!„.but 4 , thedlouse, for in that he that th i e . reeblebE:A _was because he feared r "'"the 'Wcivocate should mar a Measure ' 1114 :* tlet'es 3 - -. {)f c : which must mainly sure vOlifh . fiaa. been m : e cO il depend "; on i4 s -Pra o t!ctil . machinery a mea sure -- with careful and anxious solicitude .by to, tneiiiiv S t iap b e e r e io n r c in otn i i n tye te d l m le be c yn t to hinrielf,l--a.hleasnit'Atteh' hafi'.been prepared b the value c.lfvwhheloisi%,ti;i:ied,,thwihlv. .u. o ' n. Friend the Lord Mt.: /"'..‘,.tht;. , Ste henson, and Mr. . p Mayor of York, 'antiLaing ,had , dexoted Alai- rime preparation of •this pleasure, -lie,thought the House would think with him that thbriliad been the sound es t .. . . and most powerful tiptleks'CaUcliiig' applied to the consi deration of this qiieS - fi6n;l:ifeetiii:g , railways in Ireland ; but wile he..,sod that ~.his.,4-lonourable Friends were entitled to ail.theszpraise -and all the merits that might bit iOund in the,meaoure , „'lte4ould add that, if on ti - s contntry, there was that in.; its Tr.nciples which was hostile ~ the coi t stitutievr Of =,-.4hii, country—if there was anylhing iii its details wiki•zh' was injurious to the industry o' the country •-••-irib-' tinet , :stire was so had that it was v.tot-enti'llevl-r-vt-n -to n 'boa:1114; in that Hon. e—if it deserved to be Con , it'lntle':i *Te r lie would admit, that tor ail tha't'Was bad in 4.'...174,eip1es he alone was re sponsible. ,It was his priviieg,•,.o . loader of the party with which he •waS. .cOunected," to claim for himself . ... mo w.+. t. ~ ..~-`. _. ._~ ~..,..—. ~. ~. , a.. the right to bear the exclusive blame and the whole re sponsili ity of it. It was net his intention to mike any very leggthened preface, or to enter into a geberel dis cussion as regarded the state and condition of It eland ; suffice it for him that there was a great class at that moment in that country, amounting to 500,000 able bodied persons, existing on the funds of the State ; there were 500,000 able-bodied persons, com manded by a staff of 11,589 persons and employed upon works which had been variously de scribed as works worse than useless; by the yeomanry of Ulster, as works producing no public good ; and by the Government inspector himself, as works which could answer no other principle but to employ the people. It was true that a great calamity was over coming Ireland, but at the same time he could not look with anything like despondency upon the pre sent state of the country. In former times this had risen fions difficulties heavier than these, and they ought not to be appalled at the present calamity. In a period of war they were enabled t'.) expend upon an average of forty years one hundred and three millions a year ; and they ought not to be doe nheartecl at having to pro vide for a deficiency which was estimated at ten mil lions. —(Hear, hear.) He expected with confident hope that good would arise wet of the evil ; and, so far from lying down and weeping over their misfortunes, like children lost in a wood, they ought to look the difficulties fairly in the face, and be resolved and de termined to overcome them. He could not forget that England had had her bad days as well as Ireland ; that they had known the time when the counties of England were ravaged by the fires of incendiaries ; that they had seen England in a time when the Sovereign dare not go to his own city of London. He could not forget, that in later times, so little while ago as the year 1842, the parish rates of England supported 1,437,000 persons, of whom no less than 83,000fwere young, able bodied men, who were actually confined within the walls of the workhouse, and 47,000 able bodied labourers were sustained by the parish. Well, then, it appeared to him that when they came to estimate the situation of Ireland, and compare it with that of England, there was not so great a difference be tween Ireland at the present time and Eng land in 1842, and they should not despair of overcoming their difficulties. The years 1841 and 1842, then, being periods of great distress and great difficulty, what had occurred to change the face of affairs since theta in this country—to prevent Government from meeting the distress as then, and restoring the kingdom to the most prosperous and affluent condition that ever was known? He was aware that there were many who ascribed all this im provement and prosperity to the operation of those measures of free trade which were edmmenced in 1842; and that, by the reduction of one-sixteenth of a penny the introduction of some tons of sugar, and the free admission of feathers was the sole cause of the prosperity which they were now enjoying. But he for one was more disposed to ascribe it to the railway enterprise which arose about that period of their history. 'When they recollected that in the last three or four years about thirteen millions had been spent in the construction of railways, and besides, as he could state on the authority of the reports of the Committees of that House, that 200,000 able bodied labourers received employment at twenty-two shillings a week, which bad been culled from the workhouses, and parishes—he thought he had certainly discovered the more correct cause for the change which had come over the circumstances of this country. But this he might say, that there had been no inquiry by Parliament made in which the result has not been the recommendation that the difficulties in Ireland should be sought to be overcome by the stimulation of the employment of the people.—(Hear, hear.) In the year 1836 there was a commission appointed by her Majesty's Government to inquire into the advan tages of a system of railway communication in Ireland. The result of that inquiry, made by those able commis sioner, was a report rec ommending theta system of rail ways should be carried out, and that it should be done by the assistance of the Government—(Herr, hear.) He would not tire the House by travelling over the beaten ground or repeating the reasons on which that able Report was made, er inform it of the perfect success which had attended every grant by Parliament for the. improvement of roads in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) That report was followed up by another—the report of Lord Devon's Commission, which stated that it was the opinion 'of the c , mtnissioners that assistance by way of loan from Government for railways was the best means for finding employment for the people. This led him to the consideration of the existing state of railway enterprise in Ireland, and he found that there had been passed Acts of Parliament for 1,522 miles of railway, and although some of these Acts have passed so long since as eleven years ago, 123 miles of railway have alone been completed, and 164 more nre only in course of completion in the present year. This must prove to the House that there is some weakness, some debility in Ireland, which prevents them from carrying out those enterprises which in England and Scotland caused the completion of 2,600 voiles of railway, and had caused new Acts to be passed for 4,600 miles more. Was it the circumstances of Ireland, or the state of the population, which made hers a condition not likely to prove advantageous to railway speculators?—far from it. A report for which he was indebted to Mr. Stephenson, said that the popu lation of Ireland and the population of England and Wales were, as nearly as possible, on a par. In Eng land it appeared, taking the census of the year 1841, there are, for every two acres and a bit, one individual of population, whilst in Ireland the population amounts to one for every 21 acres ; and in that comparison, let him tell the House, there were 7,000 acres of waste bogs, and also large quantities of water in Ireland, taken into consideration, and therefore, if they were to compare the cultivated acres of England and Wales with the cultivated acres of Ireland, they would find that the balance was in favour of that conntry, and that Ireland was more densely in habited than England and Wales. Now, perhaps, they would tell him that this might be a very good argument, as far as population was concerned, but what was the use of the population if they had no money to pay for their conveyances by railivay. His Right Honourable Friend who sat beside him would tell them, that in all railway ;speculations population I was held to be the first element, of success ; and if they told him that the population. of Ireland were incapable of travelling from want of! means, he must answer them with the fact that it was not so.—(A laugh.) For by a return which ht had there, and for which he was indebted to tht' industry of Mr. Laing, he found by comparison that the number of passengers who travelled by the Irish railways, as compared with the number of those who travelled either by the English or Scotch railways, far exceeded them in number. The House might be surprised, but the fact was that whilst on the Scotch and En glish rail ways the average number of passengers travelling every month was about 11,800, on a a ailway in Ulster the number travelling was no less tha u 21,700, and on the Drogheda and Dublin Railway tti e number of passengers was 18,000 per mile. But he v, ould take these two lines which were completed, one of which, the Ulster Railway, might be taken in Ireland as tl t e London and Birmingham of England, and hes would compare the number of their passengqrs with that of the London and Birmingham line. I the two former the number of passengers per mile, for one year, was 1,111,000, and by the latter, 14108,000, the former being only fifty-six miles i e length, while the latter was double that distance. This he thought gave a flat denial to the aril aliment of Irish railways being a ruinous speculation. :'Lle might be asked, then, why it was that speculator did not come into the market to stimulate railway enterprise? He was unable to answer the question, but the fact was as he stated. There was a feeling of distrust and ignorance, he feared, as to the condition of the country, which prevented English capital from being embarked in these undern :ing,s. Of the Great Southern and Western Railway IS 6 miles had been completed, and as yet it had only opened for passengers. Of the North British Railway and its branches 72 miles had been cotnplet ed, which were partially opened for traffic as well as passengers. Well, the result was, that the traffic per R eek of the Great Southern and Western Railway in an a last week was 1,028/. on 56 miles of railway, while on the North 13riti.h Railway, which cost 26.3001 per mi le, against 15.0001. per mile, the cost of the Great Sot ahem .Ind Western Railway, the amount of traffic exc retied that of the Great Southern and Western only by 339/. per week. Yet so opposed to all principles of common sense were the feelings of capitalists as regarded public works in Ireland, that the Great Southern and Western, which was u adoubtedly the most profitable concern, was at 21 percer it. discount in the money market, while the worst rail w: tys were at 40 per cent. premium. —(Hear, hear.) We I), he had shown that there was a something of fashion, and some thing in want of confidence, n hich occasior d the un willingness of the English capitalists to 'vest their moneys in Irish railways. But if they look ed to this part of the question, they must recollect the most of the railway proprietors in Ireland were the landlords and tenants in that country, and that the very cab nity which now impoverished and afflicted that country fu a mished the very reason why those proprietors should n it be able to meet their calls; and the consequence watt that *me of the best speculations in Ireland were no , .v What was called "stuck fast" for want of money. He would take the railways in the southern part of Irelar id, and read from a report . which he bad received fro en two gen tiemen, t K.wo enneerE, who had been travellir tg in Ireland for the purpose of this very question of In sh railways. They said that one of the railways, of whi eh Cork-was one of the termini, and which was sixty-fiv e miles long, would be commenced when they received fir o as to enable them to go on with it. They stated that the branch to Limerick, which was twenty-five miles long, -‘ would be be gunthe opening of the w entity which when the necessaryhole line e d t s o w T e ip ro pe o r b ar ta y i w n , e o d t;id an d d ep t e h n a d t Junc tion, which was forfy use 'was al%o stopped for rant of had passed the HO , also upon the supply money. T ofiffetil69XlYea: irnrhleenKgtihik, 'was stopped for a the LimeriLek and similar reason. it, Plea tort(mi of The COrk and Waterford was similarly ciruttinstanced ; a o d wa i s rt . e a Vat Cork and Bandon; Fermoy Wale rford. it k was with the Cork a n ., t d This made in the whole ,Ilt9l- miles of len way s • sppe . in Ireland for th"w n , ft4bf funds. On t he Dublin e and Mullingar 3,011 ptriln s: were emPlol but if the company had mores money, a greetfer nu laber might be put this money The reason money was not ftirtlieinniolOht§,,c apitalistli in because this country mistru - sted and the propositxo n he had to make was that Government shoal 'd do' away with that mistrust. The proposition he had to make to the House was :this: that for every 100/. p roperly ex pended upon railways, Government should guarantee three and a half per cent. This was less than had heretofore been paid for money, at id no doubt he sh :uld be met with arguments again' ,t the insuffi ciency of the security, but with the indulgence ot . the House he should be able to show that wit ,h the restric tious he should propose the security we ,old be amply mission. In introducing this measure to the House, it was not his wish to bring it forward with any hostile viewthat t t h o e war isT ds ob t le he L G or o d ver a n n m d en t t h , e and Gov h er e had nine nt u h, o pad take consideration of it in the same spirit as if they were a great re-elected Committee appointed to consider and decide upon the question. The idea of the Bill ori ginated as far back as September last, at the house, of his Hon. Friend Sir John Tyrrell, and the Bill itself o w t hr s at s th d el ri Billat,uwn e , u we p xn se a e s gp f l a v r teh b ne a c ti i k n o a tn s h. eN pro t ectivem Member November nf l n a o ir s s t t , H b la u ir t ewin n i o ebhe n .r o sw t i h c o e of was in all their confidences.—(Laughter.) They did not consult any Irish Member, or any gentleman connected with the Irish, companies, because they thought, as it was a question of calling upon England to grant a large sum of money, it would be unbecoming to submit it to any jury except that House. He trusted, however, that Irish Members would not think that he had exercised any slighting dis cretion when he forbore to consult with them before in troducing this measure to the House. He felt, amongst other matters, that it was likely there would be a gene ral clamour against any proposition that would come forward about Ireland ; and, besides, he thought it was much more consistent for the Irish gentlemen to act as they had done. He thought this was more favourable for Irish gentlemen and prop) jet°, s than that which they proposed themselves. He (Lord G. Bentinek) and his friends had arrived at this conclusion after having given the subject their best consideration. The present measure would have, in his (Lord G. Bentinek's) opinion, the effect of stimulating the employment of the people in Ireland. This was the object proposed by the Irish gentlemen themselves; but they should recollect that the best line would not have the effect _they (Lord G. Bentinck and his party) desired. His Right Hon. Friend bad never engaged in any enterprise that he had not been crowned with success, and who may consequently, perhaps, be the best judge of these matters, he was of opinion that no such encouragement as the Irish could give would effect the objects here proposed. It _might do so slowla, but immediately it would not have the effect of stimulating labour. They could form some idea of the number of labourers employed by railways. The London and Birmingham line employed one hun dred men a mile for four consecutive years. Taking one line of those proposed in Ireland, Mr. Stephenson had stated that to execute the whole it would require the ser vices of sixty men a mile fur four consecutive years, and for 150 miless-90,000. But artificers, and many others not exactly engaged on the hue of railway would be also employed to the extent of over 9,000, besides those who would be employed in different ways to the extent of 180,000. But there were other miscellaneous employ ments, which, it could not be denied, by the expenditure wisely, of a large sum of money, would give employ ment-to 110,000. But the whole number who would be thus employed, would amount to 550,000 for four con secutive years. Now, if a measure which he was prepared to, show, would cost this country nothing—(Hear) — and which would not only cost it nothing, but add to its wealth—if by a measure such as this, employment would be given for four consecutive years to 550,000 of the industrious population of Ireland, who would receive good wages during that time, it must be admitted that he went a long way to assist his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) in carrying out his New Poor-law Amendment Act.--(Cheers.) But he not only expected by this proposition to give employment to this large number, and consequently subsistence at least during the four years, but they had not forgotten the comforts and interests of the labourers, in following out the recommendations of the Committee to which he had referred, they had inserted clauses in the Bill, obliging the companies to see that their contractors paid the wages of the labourers once a week and in hard cash— (Cheers)—and they had also provided that if the con tractors or sub-contractors should fail to fulfil that con dition from the Saturday to the Monday, that a sue,Loary process should have effect upon them, and that they should be obliged either to re-ray the labourer on Mon day, or in default to pay double the wages for every day of delay.—(blear, hear.) But this was not the only point on which they had con sidered the interests of the railway labourers. Another thing which they recommended we, this—and he received the suggestion from his friend Mr. Stephenson— it was this, that the companies should be required, upon the demand of the Railway Commissioners, to erect decent dwellings for the labourers before tke works corn mence. Nothing could be ttronger than the language used in the report which was laid upon the table— stating that it was vain to think of improving the morals unless a commencement was made by improving the social condition of the people, and, in point of fact, it has been found that railway labourers have been crowded into lanes and places not fit for pigs. Some might think that this was an interference with free trade in the can struction of railways. He was given to understand from all the best contractors, that it was cheaper to them in the end to consult the 'convenience and comfort of their labourers.—(Hear, hear) Experience taught them that if their men were uncomfortable, they would go to the public-house and get drunk. Experience also taught them that where the labourers could not be com fortably provided for, and had not the opportunity of bringing their wives and families with them, they soon got tired of their work and deserted from it. But there was also another advantage which attended this arrange ment; it would afford to the poor-law guardians in Ire land additional means of providing for labourers out of employment in their own parish. It might have been harsh for the poor-law guardians to say to the idle la bourers who asked for relief, " Oh, :there is a railway thirty or forty miles away where you might get work." The labourer's answer was, " Where am I and my fa mily to lodge in the mean time, or even then." But now, it would be in the power of the poor-law guardians to say, there is an order for a pix, pickaxe, and a shovel, go on a railway, and there you will find employment and a dwelling, which, when you have got, you have no claim. And thus he thought he should be affbrding his Noble Friend great facilities for carrying out his Poor law Amendment Act. He would now, with the indul oolnifn theetsh w e lo H ruils o dn u o s p e c o , c oa come on. e to Fw oh t ri h e e thh e c t o hp n e s u i r c c l p e oo r ns a se t t i ofr o u n o t f o ' do the effect on the Irish poor. r at e which the c onstru c t ion of say, • f that Mr. Smi th wou ld nat u ra lly suppose what measu re was most calcu latedhe were asked condition of Ireland — what this effectively, he would turn Andto the wn e n v l i d denc a e ny of Mr. one to improve the egt S ht re m ene sc i c t ete h , of Deanst on. an swer should he make but that bogs, to be sure ? But when by the Hon. Mem . was examined before the Committee ber for Montrose (Mr. Hu me ) , and was asked what was the best measure for the improvem ent of that countr y , - m t r th s ey m s i h tn o , u ofld drain Deanstone,t her ihe said at once the construction of railways, to be . sure. And he said that if the railways were constructed the ) agricultural improvement would gt f ny o et l a l py o ge w eera . dsl—ras obta i ned property H ot ja pupu e r erearl purchase, hmtt , pyi aft, irn:en e r: y a t"lh r tt reh. was 3771, Mr. Smith, of Deanstone, was decidedly of opinion diet it would contribute to improve the land through which they passed, if railroads were constructed, and his opinion was that it would tend greatly to improve it. Mr. Smith, of Deanstone, was asked what would would a ff ect agricultural produce, and his answer was that the improvement of the land to the extent of one mile ts th v oo ho: o acres, u l its d na b w e e hrei such, charh carriage a h g t r e t it would pay for the whole coustruction of the railway. , 6 3 4 1,0 0: al lowed for a square mile, the produce of the land alone, alone, would return a full per tentage, without saying anything of back carriage. He found from this state ment,377/, ltis. 6d., and the return is calculated at 614/. 55.; e produce of the land on every mile of railway. Accord n r t t li a , ni ) m itw, aa t ny h ( i i; s ht c he a i el assumedc improvement a p t r i o o n ve i oni t ne a nt p ht p e e o a bf r at e sh d i es miles of railway would realise 152,8521. Now he had proposed the construction of 1,500 miles of railway, and n l o t a f h n a t d h t e t Ireland would be enhanced In value, taking only a dis trict of one mile on each side of the railway, to the ex hatl weaecrh teueercarl railway lodirwoefivntaaai constructed, and how they t 1,920,000 acres would be required for the 1,500 miles of land, at 25 years purchase, and that he took as the fairest estimate that could be stated—the improvement at 25 year's purchase would be to the extent of 23,033,6351. — (Hear, hear.) This statement was made by Mr. Smith, -of Deanstone, as his estimate of the impravement of laud 'n Ireland by the construction of ratlwa) s. That this :enerasl tecitordnuaoecli anhel cost railroads ofafa nandets, tsah hwshf enters each dt:dta ictffehthcihs, was not an over-statement might be ascertained trom the experience obtained on the Glasgow and Edinburgh Railway, the statement of which Mr. Smith gave in his evidence. He said that before the construction of that line the greater part of the land near to it was not worth more than five shillings an acre, whereas now it was let at from thirty to forty shillings an acre.—(Hear, hear.) Now, taking ten shillings per acre as the improvement vem - enl o ati b odlre t ve i cs i n n o, ed by the construction of a railway, and calculating at 25 years' purchase, the improvement of 1.920 000 trwouldthe e23c b no e t, or country. required r t etoddt that et the iadhs trOO: that, Igno(i:ft. railwa tai y i w ng w h ter i o y c t u h oo ld be found to yield an additional capital to he advantage to alone, It wouldhis p o r m op p o l s o l y l t w ho a s s e fr ia a b u o , u h r t er w s it u le ser r;t y who were engaged on those works of idleness which were commenced last May. There were 83,000 nun employed to construct 3,800 miles of useless roads, and not only would those labourers be usefully employed, but their employment would tend to relieve the poor-rate and the county cess by the construction of railways. If he were to take the number of those who directly or in directly were assisted by the poor-rate at 5,000,000, it appeared to him that the expenditure for these 1,500 miles would relieve the poor-rate to the extent of 15,000,0001. He found by the calculation usually adopted for railways in England the money levied for paor-rates amounted to one and a. half per cent. on the gross return. This sum would give a gross return of 1,0001. per mile. In England and Scotland the gross return was on an average 3,5001. 'per mile. He took the gross return on railways in Ireland at one-seventh of that of England, and he believed that the railways in Ireland, when finished and completely officered, would not cost rear so much as this. He now gave the return for the railways at 950/. a mile, though, according to the calculation it ought to be 1,6001. a mile ; but not insisting on the amount of 3,5001., as it was believed was the right sum, he would assume that the mileage allowance for England and Scotland, was only to be I,OOJI. per mile ; and, on this calculation it was evident, that the poor-rate and the county. cess of Ireland would be relieved to the ex tent of 22.600/. a year. Allowing, therefore, 21,0001. per year fir the support of the destitute poor, the aged, -and the infirm ; and he ought to state to the House that this 22,600/. would be altogether a gain without any loss. He would n ow take the expenses of working the line. It appeared by the report of the directors of the Arbroath and Forfar Railway, which, was the lowest in the' mild of eip nse in Great Britain, that the cost of working the line wee, on an averge, 2021 per ruffle ; this included the expense of wear and tear, and of new locomotive engines. Then, allowing the usual estimate, and deduct 40 per cent for the w:lrking of the line, a return 01 622/. per mile mould pay 3fr per cent., and pay an aggregate total of 16,C00/. Ilut he takes the Arbroath and Forfar at I only 9,00e1. per mile, consequently, taking ti.at as the basis, after deducting money paid to Government, a net return of 702/. would give 1 per cent. profit; 800/. would give 2 per cent. ; 993/. would give 3 per cent; 1,055/. would give 4 per cent. ; 1,155/. would give 6 per cent. ; 1,2 9 9/. would give 7 per cent. ; 1,335/. would give 8 per cent. ; 1,423/. would give 9 per cent. ; and 1,521/. would give 10 per cent. Such an instrument as this -- could not fail of going to the length of improving the country, and bringing capital into Ireland, and call that into use that already existed there, while the poor rates and the county cess would be greatly relieved, since they would not employ only the 110,000 labourers now en gaged onthe useless works, but would employ upwards of 200,000 in the construction of these mile ays. He did not wish to overstate the advantages of this measure, but he did say, that if railways could be constructed, as had been shown for 170/. an acre at twenty years' purchase, the advantage was amazingly increased, and that the funds of the country would rise. He had assumed his date, on the calculation, that these railways would cost 1,6001. or 1,5001. per mile, whereas, he believed, that they could be made for at least 100/. lower, and he believed that at least 300 miles of ground had been already purchased. This would give an expenditure for the payment of land of 1,250,000/., and that would form another sum to be added to those which he had already paid, and which would swell the amount of 240,000/., which would come to the relief - of the poor. He now came to that portion of the measure which affected the public revenue. He had given an expenditure of 16,000,000/. on a security of 8,000,0 W/., to make 1,500 miles of railroad, and it was alleged, by a Member of the Government the other night, that this would dis tress commerce and disturb the money market. He did not think that the expenditure of 1,900,000/. per an num could have that effect. He had consulted several gentle. men, who ought to be well informed, as to the state of the money-market, and, amongst others, the Member for West Essex, and all had agreed that it would not have that effect. Did the expenditure of 15,000,000/. in 1835, which was raised for the compensation of the West Indian slave-owners disturb the money-market? They contrived to pay 3,000,0007. in the year 1835. We found that during the year before, the price of the Three per Cent. Consols was 89/. The day before this money was paid, the price of Consols was 90/. 155., and the price of Reduced Three per Cents. was 90/. 12s. 6d. The contract was taken for the Reduced Three per Cents. at 88/. 13s. 4d., and at 75/. for the Three per Cent. Consols. The whole of the contract was taken at 90/. 2s. 6d., the Consols being 13s. 7d. above par with the long annuities, so that the whole of the contract was taken 1/. 4s. 3d. to the advantage of those who had contracted the loan for 15,000,000/. Did this at all affect the funds? Certainly not ; for en the day after the contract was completed Consols stood at 91, and in the year that followed they had improved to 21.175. 6d., and in the year after that to 41. 14s. Had they not had the experience of the lean of 15,000,0001. ? And it should be remembered that this money was not raised to be disbursed in the country, in the digging of canals, the formation of rail ways, or the building of mills; but was all sent out of it. But the money which he proposed to raise was to be expended in relieving the distress and in rewarding the industry within the country. Lord Bacon had made a just remark-that "muck must be spread before it could fertilise;" and it was the same with industry. They had expended seventy millions a year in the support of foreign war, and to uphold the power of the State, and be allowed that such a course might depress the money market, but then the whole of the money was sent out of the country without their being a single pound returned.- ( Hear, hear.) But did the expenditure of 7,000.000/., which had in bygone years been employed in the working of silver mines depress the market. Did the capital engaged in the silver mines of Bolanos, in their Candonga, Cata Branca, their Brazilian and their Capiago Association, and used even for the working of mines in the West Indies, de press the money market? But he would not go through the long list of the twenty-three mining companies through whose agency this capital was sunk in the year 1825, never, never to lee returned.-( Cheers.) He thought that upwards of 13,000,0', 0/. had been sent to relieve the necessities of Ohio and Kentucky, and where were they ? Where were the mil lions that had been sent to Portugal? and the more than two millions that had been sent to Spain? and which were only now to be seen in the funds of Passive and Deferred Annui ties. Had there not been immense sums spent in America in railway;, and did they not all realise the outlay ? for he believed that there was not one among them which did not repay the money expended upon them. Yet all these, so far as Great Britain was concerned, were dis bursements out of pocket, and disposed of out of the country. But he most beg leave to say, that whilst he was calling upon his own country to lend to Ireland 16,000,000 sterling at a reasonable rate of interest, without any charge or expense, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he advanced to Ireland a loan to be employed on public wen ke. did not stand in the same position as the private capitalist. The private capitalist was restricted to the bare interest he received for his money, while the public officer derived many other advantages besides his interest. When they looked back to the last four years, and reflected what an expenditure of 13,000,0001. a year in railway enterprise had done in increas ing the revenue of the country-in the • excise, in • the customs duties, in the consumption of beer, of malt, of spirits, and of tobacco peculiarly the consumption of railway labourers he thought they must be of opinion with him, that in directly the State would be a sleeping partner in the advantages to be derived from Irish railways. They had it stated in evidence by Mr. Peto, that at first he found drunkenness amongst his men was a greet drawback in the completion of his contracts, tied he accordingly re stricted each man in his employ to a gallon of strong beer a day.-(Laughter.) Now one gallon of strong beer gave a quarter of a peek of malt consumed by one railway labourer ; and, setting aside what his wife and family might consume-setting aside what came to the revenue in tea, tobacco, and sugar, he paid 51. 4s. a year in the excise duties upon his beer alone. Well, let him see how this would work out. Upon looking at a calculation of the excise duties in -Scotland and Ireland, he found that in Scotland the excise duties gave 11. Os. 3d. per head upon the whole population, whilst in Ireland there was only 3s. 10,1 d. paid per head. This, after deducting the soap returns, and such duties as were not paid in Ire land, gave a difference upon the excise in favour of Scotland of IGs. l id. per head. Now he was not going to pretend to say, as was calculated by Mr. Stanley, of the Board of Works, some ten years ago, that the effect of making 1,500 miles of railway in Ireland would be to bring the population of the counties up to the level of Scotland, but he thought he might say with great confidence, that out of 550,000 labourers, 110,000 would be raised to the average level of Scotland ; and if they calculated that number at 16s. lid. it would give an annual sum of 440,0001., which divided into three and a-half per cent. interest would represent a capital of 12,600,0001. Well, hitt still there were the Customs' duties. It was not unfair to suppose that the construc tion of .a railway would increase the Customs as well as the Excise duties. He was aware that there was great difficulty in getting at the Customs' duties of Ireland and Scotland, because a large proportion of them were paid in this country, but an estimate had been made, not by himself but by an excellent authority upon such matters, and from that estimate it would appear that the gross amount of custom paid in Scotland averaged 13s. per head. while the gross amount paid in Ireland only averaged ss. 21(1., making a difference of 6s. 90. The increase of the customs would, he calculated, represent an annual sum of 202,0001., which, at 3} per cent., would give ft sum of six millions sterling. Well, then, if he calcu hued, and it would be perfectly fair to do so, that the employment would continue after the railway was com pleted and in full vigour, he would have a right to say that there would be an increase in the revenue of no less than 642,0001., which, at 3f per cent., would give a ca pital of nine millions sterling. Now he be lieved there were good grounds for thinking that, after the execution of these various lines of railway, the employment would• be continued by the improvements which the railway would introduce. It was calculated that ten men were em ployed per mile in maintaining the permanent way, ex clusive of the artific engaged in building carriages, and the driving andilhanutacture of engines, while it was estimated that the improvements that naturally grew out of agricul ure from the construction of a rail-. way would absorh six men per mile. But when they recollected what railways had done in this contry-when they looked at the large towns which had grown up upon the South •Weetern Railway, and the extension of Southampton, which had since the opening of the railway nearly doubled its size at d its docks-it was not to') much to suppose that every mile of a new railway would absorb sixty of the men who had been engaged in its construction.-(Hear, hear.) Take the railway, for instance, to Valencia harbour. They bad the evi dence of Mr. Walker, the Admiralty engineer, that sooner or later Valencia harbour must become the American packet station of •this country. They hod also the authority of Lord Liverp iol, who said-little thinking at the time that railways would be carried to the extent they had been-about the year 1827, that Valencia must eventually become the point of departure for America. Before, however, the prediction ceuld come to pass, a railway of one hundred and ninety-- five miles in length would have to be made, and innu merable would be the to ens and improvements it would give rise to. It might be said-he knew it would be urged by some-that if Irish enterprise could not walk esitbout crutches, Irish enterprise must be allowed to tall ; but he had that day received a communication from Mr. M oss. of Liverpool, one of the early promoters of the T.ivcrpool and Manchester Railway, to the eff,ct, that had it not been fora loan of 100,000/. advanced by tile - Government of that day, he believed the Liverpool and Manchester Railway never would have keen paid.-(Cheers.) But there was another argument that would be used. He had heard, not in that House it was true, but elsewhere, that whenever loans were made to Ireland they never were repaid. Grosser ignorance never, was displayed than was displayed by those who had made that statement. True it was that one million sterling which was advanced had never been returned, but unfortunately this was not owing to a disposition to repudiate the debt, but to certain religious prejudices which could not be got rid of.-(Hear, hear.) They bad it upon the authority of Lord Devon, that so far from the loans to Ireland not having been repaid, the truth was it had been the custom of England to lend her money at usury prices, but still even at these p rices two-thirds of all the grants had been returned. A circumstance had come to his knowledge within the last few days about the Agricultural Bank of Ireland, whose hscd quarters were held in Cork. It appeared that no less a sum than 900,0001. was out at interest upon the joint notes of two tenants together, greater part of them in sums not exceeding 20L, but to the astonishment of all the bankers aud assignees of the company, when the affairs came to be wound up, such was the good faith of the little people connected with the concern, that not a'shilling was lost. -(Cheers.) lie had another instance of the good faith of Irishmen in matters of loans, which had been re lated to him by Mr. Prosser, the engineer. Mr. Prosser some years ago, went to the counties of Limerick, 'Wa terford, and Cork, to construct wooden railways, but the labourers were so ignorant that he could not get them to work at first. Mr. Prosier, however, reasoned with them, and, one by one, they saw the utility of the invention, and readily entered upon the work. Some of them, however, were in so wretched a cond:tion, being without clothing to cover their nakedness. that many of them applied' to him for loans of 205., 255., and 30e, which he readily advanced ; and in no one instance was the money not repel:L-(1i( ar, hear.) Those who said, then, that if they made their leans to ej. • 'the Irish people, they would be trending money that would never bo repaid, were scandatlous calumniators.— (Cheers.) lle had forgotton to stat& e that, originally his 'ntention was to propose that the repayment of the money should commence seven years aftera ceri - XcatesTiould be signed that the railway was in ofbratfoli, to the whole to be paid from that time hi instalments, running to the end of twenty years. When, however, the interest and profit of money was paid, to all intents and purposes, the debt did not exist, and, therefore, it did not matter ' when the money was repaid, or how long it took to repay it; but upon consulting with the monied interest, he was told that the repayment of the money by instalments would create confusion in the dividends, and therefore it would to much more advisable if it were specified that the money should be repaid in thirty years.—(Hear, hear.) He had heard at different times that there was danger of outrage in Ireland. They had heard a story oftentimes repeated, and as often refuted, that the peasantry were buying arms, with which to rise up in rebellion. He, for one, denied it, When he read accounts of ten bodies out of eleven persons, lying dead in one house—of dogs and swine wallowing over their dead bodies—of the dead being denied the common decencies of a burial, to save the price of the coffin to sustain the living—ho could not help expressing his surprise that they had. been so long patient.—(Cheers.) He could blame them. not ; and so far from expressing discontent at anything they might have done under their long suffixing, he said let them rather fill the bellies of the starving Irish people with good meat—wholesome mutton, good bread, good strong beer —and fill their pockets with Eng lish gold. Let them assist to cover their beds with the blankets of Witney—to clothe the men with the fustians of Manchester —their wives and daughters with the cotton prints of Stockport, and ribbons of Coventry, and with his head he could answer for the loyalty of the Irish people.—(Cheers.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL had no hesitation in offering his Noble Friend opposite the tribute of his praise for the feeling he had exhibited in bringing forward this motion, and the ability he had displayed in the statement he had made to the House, as well as the zeal which he had shown for the people of Ireland. But while he did not hesitate to pay that tribute to his Noble Friend, and approved of the principle of his measure, he must say that his plan was one to which he (Lord John Russell) could not agree to adopt, and that his proposition was not one that her Majesty's Government would have brought forward. He could assure his Noble Friend that he felt the expressions that had been uttered by him, and that his plan was not rejected from any petty feeling of its not having been a measure of Government, for no such conside ration would have induced him to refrain from adopting it. The fact was, that the plan which his Noble Friend brought for ward, thoug h not exactly what he proposed, had been sometime under the consideration of her Majesty's Government. They were obliged to look at it in quite a different aspect. In considering such a plan it was requisite to be certified that such was suited to the general state of Ireland. The Commissioners of Woods and Forests had brought forward a plan with respect to rail ways in Ireland which they thought calculated to benefit the country; but. that plan contemplated railways to be under the direction of Government in all its departments. This would have been most excellent, and have been preferable to the Titan in this country, as giving a most desirable control over the works to be constructed. But that was not the plan of his Noble Friend.—(Hear, hear.) In the course of late years there had been lines passed for Ireland which would require 1500,0001., and therefore any plan of Noble Friend was not particularly required. Besides there were other rail ways proposed.—( Hear hear.) Morever, it was not desirable for Government to step out of its usual department, and to favour, as this measure proposed to do, companies, or sets - of companies, who should set on foot railways. He would call the attention of the Home to one circumstance in connexion with the subject. The North British Railway was at a pre mium of 40 per cent., while the Midland South Western (Ireland) was at a discount. If Govern ment acted in the way proposed it would be a departure from these -functions, an •i be favouring certain parties to the detriment of others. But the present case as brought rests its merits,• he. (Lord John Russell) though , , upon its application to the present distress in Ireland. It was. therefore, with a view to the distress of Ireland, that they were to look at the question.—( Hear, hear.) Some two mouths ago certain railway companies had met in Dublin, and made re, resentations to the Lord Lieutenant, which were transmitted to him ( Lord J. Russell.) These were to the effect that supposing by the Railway Act of 1846, fifteen millions were required in order to execute the works, that Government, 'hould advance five millions, and they would advance ten mil lions. They (the Government) then stood in the position of having before them the expenditure of a large sum of money, in a grant from the Exchequer, for alleviating the distress in Ireland. They could not say there was a boundless mine at their disposal. They were bound to see how they could meet the immediate distress, and seeing that that which was the most pressing was the want of food, and that, toe, in the remotest districts of the country. Now, the application of money for.railways did not apply to that particular oldect.— ( Hear, hear.) It was certainly true that railways were valu able to the country.—( Hear, hear.) Without entering into the calculations of his Noble Friend, particularly when he had such able assistants as Mr. Lamb and Mr. Stephenson, the question they had to consider was, how the application of a large sum of money from the Treasury was to relieve a cer tain number of persons pressed by eistress. They must see, if that was likely to be carried out by these railways. He ( Lord John Russell) had examined certain deputations from railway companies. and be ascertained that the first thing they did was to go to a contractor over whom they bad no control. That contractor had a sub-contractor intervening, who was to supply the men, and in 'the selection it was con ditioned, that when men had been employed for some weeks they were to have Is. 6d. a day. Now, it was evident that this contractor would engage only the most able-bodied men at the time when wanted, and at the place where their services might be of benefit. If there was a place where there was great distress, bat where there was nothing to do, there would be no relief afforded. It was the business of those contractors to employ only the persons whose labour was well worth the money. It appeared to him, therefore, that the proposition of relieving that distress by employment by railways in Ireland, was not the most efficient means of meeting the dis tress. By the plan proposed, the railways would pass through the north and east, where there was least distress ; therefore railway labour would not apply to those parts of the country most peculiarly distressed, and to which their attention ought to be first directed. This subject had been under the con sideration of the former Government, and from the com munications that had passed between that Government and parties interested ba the question, it was evident that they were not favourable to the question. No doubt they were influenced by the same motives as they (the present Government) were. His Noble Friend's (Lord G. Bentinck's) calculations might be generally correct; but he did think he cou ld hardly imply that there would be such a duration of employment as he had stated to the House that evening. For instance, he had said that 1,500 miles of railway would employ 60,000 men ; but it should be remembered that every year the num ber of miles would be diminished. The greatest distress, how ever, existed in the south and west of Ireland, and therefore the larger portion, that required it most, could derive no be nefit from the extension of these works. It was proposed to give to those 580,000 persons the means of buying the food they required; but in Let, as at present, when there was so great a pressure on the poor rates, they would not be doing justice unless they employed them in useful works. He (Lord J. Russell) agreed generally that the establishment of railways in Ireland would be of great benefit, nor did he think that public assistance ought altogether to be withheld. But he did not think it would be wise to devote sixteen millions to railways. He did not wish to enter further into the question of railways. He would not oppose the bringing in of the Bill. When he said he did not oppose the introduction of that Bill, let his Noble Friend understand, in order that he might not afterwards be accused of deception, that when the Bill went into Committee, that he would adopt any line he thought Government ought to adopt, if they thought fit to refuse their consent to its being carried. He did not wish to be understood as giving any favourable opinion with respect to the course he would pursue when the Bill should go into Committee.—( Hear, and cheers. ) Mr. B. OSBOIt N E came there that evening prepared to support the Noble Lord's motion. He thought the Noble Lord who had given his voice against the Bill had not acted fairly, in allowing the Bill to be printed, and then opposing it in Committee. Now, the Hon. Member for Lynn was enti tled to greater praise than any other Member, for having brought forward a great measure for the redemption of the country. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government, although he said that the subject of Irish railways had been under their consideration, did not say that he was prepared to bring in any measure on the subject. The Noble Lord concluded his speech by contradicting the very first proposition with which he commenced his speech. He said that e.e did not think it fair to advance so much money for the purposes of railways, because it would interfere with private enterprise, and then he concluded by saying that at a future time the state might per haps render some assistance to the railways. The Irish people expected that the Government had been put in their places not to filch little schemes from individual Members of the House—a suggestion as to the poor-law from one lion. Member, soup kitchens from a Quaker, anal so on. They ought to come forward and adopt some bold and com prehensive plan, like that suggested by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn. lie would not sit down without expressirg his great admiration for the great tales t displayed by him iu the very able and practical speech which he had delivered that evening.—( Cheers. ) Mr. ROEBUCK was quite surprised at the course pursued by the Noble Lord at tee head of the Government. He said the' there were instinerable objections to the measure of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, and yet he had allowed the Bill to be introduced air , read a first time, reserving to himself the liberty to oppose it in some futtire stages. He (Mr. Roebuck) objected to the scheme in limbic., and he would tell the House why he objected to it. The Noble Lord had pro -mosed to spend 16,003,000/. in making railroads in Ireland. Now, in ordinary times that work was left to private enterprise. and the capital requisite for such works was always obtainedr from the surp,us wealth of the people. The NobleoLf c ord the d Member for Lynn proposed not to ask the rich t e o t w h i o th t Govern hei r to o n e e n y t , butto t h . e x asked r t ohoe Noble E L g d l a. a ( d t ' th me i e . head forward produce p of that tax to that they might apply t t h h e a i t r capital in any the peopl e o f Ireland. He objected to p eople of England the being t t a i x o ed,f h or ato t vhe. He w e r of employing opinion Englandec.la n w should be taxed for the purposes n of erx t i h tge e ntt G :o a o s v as Government, Querynamtent but they ought not , un der an y consideration,- to be taxed f or the purposes of speculation. Englmsh representative if he would allow his constituents to be t a xed for such a purpose, and to H such pro posed b y Fo ir.ot wouldll the e a N re o tt b ue l re required Lord. etqhu airte hda fdo l r b h te e he y en were already told th a t m la e id as u u p r o e n s othfothteahGlooovferthno -11;e"ouuri0,t'it appeare-d that. presentments had also lately been made to the tune of 2 ,500,000/., and a Bill was about to be brought in to sanction that expenditure. Let Hon, Members just add these things together, and see how the matters stood. There was the 9,000,000/. already proposed, and the 2,500,000/. about to be sanctioned—that would make a total of 11 ,500,000/. Then the Noble Lord came forward and pro posed to take 26,000,0001., that would make together, on the 1 sweet calculation, 37,500,000/. The ordinary sum collected for the purposes of the revenue daring the year was about 55,000,0001., and more than one-half of that sum had to be placed to the credit of the national debt ; so that the case stood thus : —There were 8,000,000 of persons requiring for their own benefit a sum equal to more than one half of the whole expenditure of the Government. This was all very fine; Gentlemen might talk of comprehensive, schemes, or accuse others of malignity or mendacity and ignorance, if they attempted to make any state ments or express any opinions upon the subject. But the question to be considered was, wi at would the people of Eng land say upon the subject when the tax-gatherer came round? —( Hear, hear.) The state of England ought not to be over looked. In the very constituency which he had the honour to represent, there were persons in such a wretched state that they were obliged to tear up their clothes and those of their children into rags, and sell them as such at 2d. per lb., in older to ob. tain a meal, but when such tales of suffering and want were told of the poor wretches in Somersetshire, they excited no sym pathy in the hearts of Hon. Members, but the momenta tale of