The Sun. — London, England, 1847-04-29 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ROUSE OF COMMONS. April 28. JUVENILE OFFENDERS BILL. (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) Mr. LAW said, that while he wished the Bill to be withdrawn, he must still say that he agreed with its principle, and considered that the time had arrived when it was necessary to adopt means of proceeding against offenders in a more summary manner than at present. He thought what had fallen from the Right lion. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Depart. ment was, however, sufficient to show that the time had arrived when it was fit to discuss the present Bill. He was quite opposed to the summary Jurisdiction which this Bill proposed to give the magistrates. He did not object to the Hon. Baronet having introduced such a Bill to promote discussion, but he should be campelled to oppose it as a measure. He hoped that the admission of the principle of the measure by the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Depart ment would induce the introducer of this Bill to with draw it. He thought that the subject was too extensive a one to be introduced by an y private Memberof that House who had not received a legal education, and who was not connected with the administrathoo. Baronet n h ofpublic justice. He hoped that a t least the Right would postpone the second reading of this Bill until the report from the Upper House wa s laid upon the table. Mr. B. DENISON said, that he for one should feel it necessary to oppose this measure if it were pressed. It bad a direct tendency to do away with one of the principal safeguards of the English subject—namely, trial by jury. Ho hoped that the magistrates of this country would not attempt to have any such power de puted to them, for there was, even under the present public systems a great difficulty in trying ma n y o f t hi s class of offenders at public quarter-sessions. That diffi culty would be much increased by the operation of the Right Hon. Baronet's Bill, and he hoped that the House would not sanction it. Sir J. PAKINGTON said that, after the expression of the sense of the House against this measure, he hoped the House would permit him to make a few observa tions. He did not when he came down to the House that day anticipate any such opposition as the measure had met with, especially after the favourable reception it had received in the first in stance. He did think that such a measure as the pre. sent one would have been better in the hands of the Government, or in the hands of some professional man, and be regretted that it had been left to him. The first objection of the Hon. Member for Bath, as to the exer cise of these very large powers by the magistrates in private, was certainly correct. He quite admitted that these powers ought to be exercised publicly, and in 99 cases out of 100 these powers would be — exercised in public. The power given to the magistrates of England under the 7th and Bth of George IV. were infinitely greater than the ones he proposed to give them. Under that Act, any single magistrate sitting in his private parlour might send any 6flender to prison for not six, but twelve months. He begged the lion. Member for Bath to reflect that those who were magistrates, and who objected to this mea sure, were already possessed of much greater power. The provisions of this Act were framed under the report and recommendation of the Criminal Law Commissioners in 1837, who stated that the powers to be exercised were not so great as those of which the magistrates were already in possession. Sir Edward Ryan, the head of the Criminal Law Com mission, had given him (Sir J. Pakington) permission to say that his opinions were entirely in favour of the principle of this measure. The Hon. Member for Bath had also objected that while the Bill professed to avoid the necessity of imprisonment, it gave the power of inflicting it, and thus inculcated the very evil it sought to avoid. Although in some instances imprisonment could be inflicted, it would be inflicted at once, without the necessity of a long imprisonment before conviction. It would remedy the evil of infants having to stand before the bar as felons, and, in many instances, a very strong feeling had been shown by the judges, in order, if possible, to discourage the practice.—(The Hon. Member here read extracts from the speech of Sir John Campbell, from which it appeared that he considered the Bill unobjectionable.) He must now ex press his great regret for the manner in which the Right Hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary dealt with the Bill. When he (Sir J. Pakington) introduced the Bill the Right Hon. Gentleman gave him a good reception, but now, on the second reading, he withdrew his support on the grounds of the details be in.. objectionable. He begged, however, to tell him that these details were considered under good authority; but to remove all objection he was quite willing to reconsider them before a Committee up stairs, when the Right Honourable Gentleman would have an opportunity of stating the points to which he objected. He hoped the Right Honour able Gentleman would accede to the proposition, and not throw the weight of his authority against the Bill, the more especially as it had cost him (Sir J. Pakington) a good deal of trouble, and had not been brought forward without the most careful consideration. He thought the Bill was demanded by a sense of justice and mercy, and he had received the greatest encouragement from all parts of the country in bringing it forward. He would not, therefore, withdraw it. He would submit to any fair proposition for the amendment of the details, but he would entreat the House to give its sanction to the Bill, and read it a second time. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he would vote for the second reading of the Bill. His Right Hon. Friend (Sir George Grey) did not oppose the principle of the Bill ; all he wished was, time for the further consideration of the details of the measure. He (the Attorney-General) had great objection to many of the details, which were principally objections referring to omissions. By the vote he now gave he only wished to be understood, as affirming the principle of the Bill; and he hoped his Hon. Friend would adopt the course of allowing the Bill to go up stairs, or to withdraw it for the purpose of allowing time for the in troduction of a measure of a more comprehensive na ture. Mr. HENLEY thought the measure did not gee far enough. The question, in his opinion, ought to be taken up by the Government, and dealt with in a com prehensive manner. He disapproved entirely of a great many of the details of the Bill, and if it was pressed to a division, he should vote against it. Mr. PACKE was in favour of the principle of the Bill ; and, though he objected to many of the details, he thought some measure of the kind was so necessary, that he would consent to any postponement. Mr. ADDERLEY said that the principle of separate imprisonment was just gaining ground in this country; but that principle could not be carried out with yegard to juvenile offenders, towards whom a system of corporal punishment should be adopted. He did hope that the Bill would be allowed to go to a second reading. Mr. B. ESCOTT said that it was quite clear that the present Bill would not pass during this ses sion. Even if the second reading were carried by a division, it would be sent to a Committee up-stairs, and thee, like many others, it would not be heard of until some better considered measure was introduced to the attention of the House.— (Hear, hear.) He hoped that the Honourable Baronet would not go to a division, for they all felt that something should be done ; but the present measure would have the effect, it was agreed by all parties in rendering matters worse than they were at the pre sent. He would vote against the measure. Mr. ROBERT PALMER thanked his Hon Friend for bringing the question under the consideration of the House; he considered that the value of the article should be taken as the criterion of the punishment to be in flicted on the offender. This he considered to be a valu able amendment. At present the stealing of an apple subjected the offender to the same punishment as the stealing of a more valuable article. There were many provisions in the Bill of which he did not approve, but he thought it would be a very desirable course to send the measure to a Committee, who would have an opportunity of examining into the question. Mr. T. EGERTON said that he would vote for the second reading of the Bill, in order to its being sent to a Select Committee; at the same time, he felt himself bound to say that there were many of the provisions of the Bill to which he entertained the most decided objection. Mr. PROTHEROE said that if the question came to a division, he would vote for the Right lion. Baronet's Bill, in order to recognise the principle of the measure, but therere were many provisions to which he could by no means assent. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the Amendment Against it! 75 Majority The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed. RATING OF TENEMENTS BILL (No. 2). Sir G. GREY moved the resumption of the debate on this Bill. He said it was proposed to apply the Bill to the whole country, and not exclusively to towns. The Honourable Gentleman the Member for Stroud (Mr. Poulett Scrape) had a Bill on the paper - (the Poor and Highway RatesExcemption Bill), which , 1 profe sse d to obtain the same object as the Rating of ; Tenements Bill, but in a different may; but he (Sir G. Grey) did not think it w ou ld answer the en d for w hi c h it was design e d, and h he could not su pport the second b egge d to i nt i mate t h at second reading of his Bill. Mr. B. OSBORNE said the Bill now before the House had caused the greatest collstoernation among those per sons who, on the score o{ rates, tied been hitherto exempted from the paymenri'. and therefore lie mild not be agreed hoped the second reading of the Bill persons to pay t o by the House, as it would call,uoposn o on account of rates who were wholly unable to Li their poverty. Mr. POULETT SCROPE objected to the Bill the groun d th a t i t wou ld entail great. hards'll'n upon the pour. The present law was enacted in teliPe 54th year of George 111., and invested magistrates with the power of exempting persons from the payment of rates who were unable to du so t n account of their poverty ; and thus a vast proportion of the cot tage property of the country had been exempted from the payment of rates ; but, it' this Act were passed, it would compel the landlords to impose a higher rent than heretofore on their tenants, or com e.: pel the tenant, if the duty of :paying the rates did not devoive on the landlord, to pay a sum in addition to his rent, though, perhaps, barely able to do that. A vast numb ..r of petitions had been presented from the zvrer parts of the kingdom in favour of his Bill, and amongst them there were two from the county with which he was connected —Wiltshire one stated that the cottage property of the place formed one twenty .second part of the whole hou se property, and that nearly all the cottages under 6/. were exempted from the payment of rates. In Liverpool there were 40,000 cottages, 32,000 of which were exempted from the payment of rates. The rates an the whole amounted to a tr i t* 1` about 100,0001. ayear, but notmore than 70,0001. hadbeen collected during the last three years, showing that 30,0001. a year had been remitted on the cottage pro perty of Liverpool--(Hear, hear)—but, if this Bill were passed, the occupiers of the cottages so exempted would have to pay this 30,000/. But as the occupiers fall upon ierswould be unable to pay this additional tax, it the landlords, who were mostly small tradesmen, who had invested some of their savings in house pro perty—he would, therefore, be directly taxed ; but if the occupier were in a condition to pay it his rent would have to be increased in order to enable the landlord to do so. Thus those least capable of bearing such a tax would suffer; and if mining, and other property was to be exempted, he saw no reason why the poor man's cottage should not be placed in a similar condition. Persons who speculate in the building of improved houses for the poor would be discouraged, and the poor would suffer. Such speculations conferred a great benefit on society by building cottages for the poor, because they supplied the demand made by the poor for cottage accommodation, but if any impediment were thrown in their way, they would discontinue their speculations on account of the improbability of obtaining adequate remuneration, and the poor, as he had said, would suffer. No one would lay out 100 Z in cottage property, if he knew that he would have this additional burden imposed upon him. They would not do well to put a stop to the demand fur cottages, because the health of the poor was pro moted by a residence in them. They should also bear in mind that the population was increasing at the rate of 800 or 1,000 a day, and that the demand was thus increased. The question, therefore, resolved itself into this, whether they would throw an obstacle in the way of the supply of that demand or not? If they did put a stop to it the poor, instead of being domiciled in cottages, would be compelled to reside in single rooms owing to the high rent. Whole families were now crowded in single rooms in houses badly drained and ill-ventilated, and immorality ill-health, and physical deterioration were the natural results, and it was, therefore, the duty of the House to promote in every way in its power the giving of proper home ac commodation to the poor. He was perfectly aware of the present mode of excusal--(Hear, hear)—and, there fore, in his Bill he proposed carrying out the benevolent principles of the Act of George 111., and at the same time drawing a line of a different and more certain nature between those who could and those who could not pay rates. At present both magistrates and parish officers were put to great trouble and expense in en deavouring to obtain the payment of rates, and the re sult was frequently this:—that the magistrates, owing to the poverty of the persons summoned, often refused to carry out the law, and that the money recovered did not pay the trouble and expenses—(Hear, hear)—the expense often being 6s. or 7s. for the recovery of 9d. or lod. Mr..o RIPPS —The Honourable Member for Wycombe bad said that this Bill caused a ferment through. out the country. He (Mr. Cripps) had pre. rented twenty petitions in favour of this Bill. He believed that the Bill would have an ef f, et quite different from that which the lion. Gen• tieman opposite apprehended. He denied that houses under 5/. a year should be exempted from taxation. He had never heard from any one outside the House one single word of objection to this Bill, which he considered to be a most called for and excellent measure. Mr. VERNON SMITH thought it would be better for the House if Hon. Gentlemen would confine them selves to the Bill before them. The Hon. Member for Stroud quite misunderstood the question, and he believed that the speculators in cottages were anything but be nefactors to the poor, for a speculator would of course build cottages as cheaply as possible, in order to evade the payment of poor-rates. He denied that stock in trade was exempted, and he considered that the principle of the Bill, namely, that of charging the owner, went to the foundation of the evils that at present ex isted, and it was a principle that he would wish to see extended. His only objection was, that which was urged by his Hon. Friend the Secretary- of State for the Home Department, namely, that there was a Committee sitting up stairs on the law of settlement. Colonel WOOD was surprised to hear stated by her Majesty's Government the grounds on which they were opposed to the Bill. There was sufficient evi dence of overseers and other functionaries on this subject to show the evils that existed at pre sent, and which this measure would remedy. (The Honourable Gentleman read an extract from the report of the Commissioners of local taxation, com plaining of the present'inode of assessment.) In the case of Merthyr Tydvil there were 8,000 cottages under 61. a year. Now, if the occupier was the owner of the cottage, he was charged according to the rating, but if he was not, then he was exempted. He hoped that the Government would not prevent the House from going into Committee upon this Bill. Captain PECHELL said, that he always understood that the object of the House meeting on Wednesdays was, that they might calmly discuss measures which they might not be able to enter upon at another time. He was somewhat surprised that the Gallant Colonel who had just sat down bad not spoken with his usual calmness. He had told the House that the Act had failed in Liverpool through the corruptness of the overseers, who wished to overweigh the democratic influence.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that it was just the reverse. He conceived that they would be doing a great injustice by not assessing the poor, fur they would prevent them in the rural districts from at tending the vestry meetings. This Bill would prevent pafties rated under 61. from attending vestries. Colonel T. WOOD said that there was a clause pro posed in the Bill by which all parties assessed might attend at these vestries. Captain PECHELL said that the Bill was, in his opinion, a total disfranchisement of the poorer classes of Parliamentary electors. They said that they were going to provide properlyjor towns, and they knew that it was absurd to attempt to legislate in that way for any large towns such as Birmingham, Manchester, and Li verpool. He thought that there would be a great diffi culty in passing this Bill, unless some provision was made for the election of guardians. After a few words from Mr. CRIPPS, Colonel SIBTHORP said that there would be some difficulty in the first place to discover the owners of these small cottages, and where they did find them, as their owners were poor people who did not get their rents, it would be rather hard to call upon them to pay the rates :from their limited means. This was a ques tion which demanded as much consideration from the House as the case of the occupier of these tenements. If the rate was not paid within a certain time, the over seer had a right to distrain upon the occupier, and who in his turn had to look to the landlord for in demnification, by a reduction from the rent, He thought that the cases of both owner and occupier demanded equal consideration, and this Bill, worded as it was, instead of giving a relief to the poor occupier, gave the power of distraining upon him and oppressing him. Mr. BUCK said that, in the case of large towns din agricultural districts, where people invested large amounts of capital in business, the agricultural had to pay for the parts of the district occupied by the esta blishments of manufacture. He thought the pre sent system of rating wholly inefficient, and he should therefore give his fullest support to the Bill of the Hon. Member. Mr. G'RIMSDITCH said that this Bill would inflict a very serious injury upon the poor; for the landlord of a house was liable for the rate, whether the House was occupied or not. In times of distress the rent could not be collected, and under this Bill the landlord had not only to be at the loss of his rent, but to pay the rate also. That they might not be able in many instances to do, and thus many poor people would be driven from the only place where they could obtain shelter. On these grounds he should vote against the second reading of this Bill, Mr. HENLEY wished to state the reasons which would induce him to vote against this Bill. It was a subversion of the present system of rating in this country with respect to the poor man. The poor man, under the present law, was, by consent, struck off the list altogether; but now he was to be compelled to pay it. Such a pressure could not be sustained by the poorer classes, and therefore he should oppose the Bill. Mr. ALLIX said, if the Bill did the slightest harm he would not support it ; but he did not believe that it would have an injurious effect.—(Cries of " Divide.") Mr. CAREW supported the Bill. Sir JOHN PAKINGTON was opposed to it, and believed it would effect very great injustice, as it would increase the difficulties of the labouring poor in pro curing cottages. Mr. PACKE supported the Bill, and believed it would have a most beneficial effect. Mr. HUDSON objected to the Bill, on the ground of its impolicy and injustice. It was said to be a measure which would have a goOd effect towards the poor, but he disagreed in that opinion, and thought it would operate most injuriously in their regard. Mr. BROTIIERTON thought it would be best to postpone the measure for the present. Mr. STANSFIELD thought, if this measure passed it would be a disfranchisement of the rights of the poor, and on that account he would give it his most decided opposition. Mr. WODEHOUSE would support the second read ing, as he thought the case in regard to the poor was proved; still he thought, from other considerations, that the Bill could go no further than that stage. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought, from the „e —eat difficulties which would accompany the working of the Bill that it would be found to operate in certain cases most prejudicially. He would therefore feel bound to oppose it, should it be pressed to a division. Mr. BANKES thought it should be a general Bill, hut rather than that any mutilation should take pace, he would support the second reading. The House then divided, when there appeared-- For the second reading Against it S9 The Bill wa!reaojnosreitgYnently lost. . , . readingi li ii r. ~:,ifiNathilk.,tlTlTLeknNialnl Tenant l l iA. : hw ß t I L L ( I R E L A N D ). intimation that the Governmelnl'3°pti a Bill u ha.derseltwoatidnlg inonfirmed the ric l ii i :no l u ) .lldi m l enohovateddp pledge e received s t e h c e o m n a n ( . l he would the Y retOr e s i gn the the subject. The House imp l 3 move t he second the readingn Lill, and a n o d f BERNAL OSBORNE sa i d that he would not Gentleman and the House, i t n b t el e l.n r r p .i o ll se between the Ilon.Geo sa i d eof provisionsorhieh struck at the t h o se who formerly tha Bill contained soreieiewason, g s z h e t d t o be a pro cdonfe root of all property. thought that the landlords o ) f Ir n el e an scribed class.—(Laughter. his opinions while he was in the state of ignora s n uch we e r h e most of the Members of the House were in with reGspwhti-t -the state of Ireland. But two years' residence .ee- i 3 l that country, had convinced him that instead of their censure the landlords deserved their sympathy.—(llear, hear.) He had tenants in the south of Ireland who were accustomed to owe him three and four years rent, whom he was constantly obliged to forgive the whole ' amount to, and give them 401. or 501. to get rid of them. quietly. He did not know what better tenant right they desired. He would not oppose the second reading if the Government would pledge themselves not to sanc tion the passing of the Bill. Mr. MONAHAN said that all the Members of the Government were unavoidably absent, and he, therefore, requested the Hon. Member to postpone his motion. Mr. S. CRAWFORD postponed the Bill until Wed nesday next. - POOR AND HIGHWAY RATES. This Bill was also postponed till Wednesday, 19th of May. COUNTY BUILDINGS' BILL. This Bill was read a second time. The House then adjourned. RAILWAY COMMITTEES, HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY). GROUP I. -18 The Select Committee appointed to consider the merits of the Bills comprised in this group, re-assembled this morning at the usual hour in Room 30; Mr. W. 0. Stanley in the chair. THE SOUTII-EASTERN NORTH KENT AND MID ZENT LINES. The entire day was occupied in disposing of the clauses in these Bills. The whole of the clauses were agreed to, and the Chairman was directed to report to the House accord ingly. This closed the labours of the Committee. The Commit tee met for the first time on the 11th of March. GROUP VI. SALISBURY AND YEOVIL, AND EXETER, YEOVIL, AND DORCNESTEU. (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) Mr. Ford, carrier, gave evidence in favour of th e advan tages to be derived from a through competing line to Exeter, The Committee then adjourned till twelve o'clock to marrow. GROUP XVI. STOUR VALLEY (No. II.) (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) Other evidence of a general nature was given in favour of this line, and the Committee adjourned till twelve o'clock to morrow. GROUP XVIII. CIEUSITATETZECILIVZ AND ox.romax (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) To Mr. ALEXANDER'S cross-examination, Mr. Hawkeshaw replied that he had made his examination of the strata at Cheltenham on Saturday and Sunday last, examining the plans and sections on Saturday, and going over the ground next day, in which he was occupied for four hours. Several pits had been dug, both by the order of Mr. Stephenson and Mr. Brunel. From the levels of the water in these pits he had ascertained the tendency of the water in the strata, and he was satisfied that the works of the railway would not at all exhaust the water in the wells on either side of the course, although to the extent of a hundred and fifty, or, as Mr. Milne conceived, to the extent of two hundred yards on each side. There were two modes of obviating the difficulty, one—the longer—by inserting the culverts, which would oc casion some little inconvenience; and the other, by building the walls first, which would be a shorter plan so far as the wells are concerned, but which would draw the water from them to a much larger extent. The time, however, occupied would not be longer, even on the more protracted system, than six weeks; for he had himself executed a much larger work in that period. There was a canal which had proved from its depth and width inconvenient for the traffic which came upon it, and it was conceived necessary to use boats of twelve feet beam, and drawing four feet and a half of water. In order to adapt the canal for such vessels it required to be both deepened and - widened for a length of sixteen miles. The canal was closed for five weeks, and during that time the water was all drawn off, the puddle taken out, the canal widened to the requisite extent, the locks taken down and rebuilt, and walling of stone to the length of several miles erected to protect the banks, the water was again let on, and the canal was in use. A portion of this cutting only passed through the wet clay, where there was the flow of water, and he did not conceive that any difficulty would arise on that account, or that the substantiality of the works would in any way be affected by that circumstance, for he had himself about a year and a half ago built a chimney a hundred and fifty feet high, of brick, near Bolton-le-Mosrs, on a quick sand. In fact it would be considered a matter of no difficulty whatever. The Earl of LINCOLN observed that the Great Victoria Tower, at the Houses of Parliament, was built on the wettest sand he ever saw. To Sir WALTER -Teams, the witness replied that the work was of such a nature as to enable the contractor to put a great number of men on at once, so that he believed the work would be half executed in the time that was taken in talking about it. To Mr. BunKE, on re-examination, Mr. Hawkeshaw re plied that the inverted tiles were not likely to choke, although they were laid upon wet sand, and if such a cir cumstance did occur it was easy to make a drain to relieve them. With respect to the wells, they might be affected to some extent, and a compensation could easily be made, and even during the construction of the works a supply of water for the inhabitants might readily be obtained. Mr. Simpson, a civil engineer, chiefly connected with waterworks, and who has much to do with the waterworks in London, stated that he had examined the strata of the sand bed of Cheltenham personally, and had not the slightest doubt as to the facility with which the water would be directed into its usual course even during the construction of the works. There was certainly some running sand, but the wet sand was agglutin a t e d t o some extent byy clay and other surreptitious matters. To Mr. ALIXANDER, the witness replied that he had known Cheltenham for some years, but had only examined the strata particularly during his professional visits, and be lieved that no permanent inconvenience would arise, although the wells might be affected during the construction of the works, but they would regain their original level within a month after they were finished. The inverts he should lay upon a flat tile; deemed that quite a sufficient foundation for the purpose. The retaining walls are to be of 3i brickwork, laid in cement and hydraulic mortar, a substance which had of late years been much used by civil engineers in the formation of waterworks. The prices for the several portions of the work were, in his opinion, very hand some ; they were to be Is. 6d. per cubic yard for excavation, 255. for brickwork, and 355. a yard for brickwork in cement. In the event of the water coming in, he would keep it down by sheet-piling; and even should the water percolate underneath, the evil might easily be repressed by a sewer. But he had had very great experience in the construction of waterworks—he should think to the extent of 1,250,0001.—and had made a great extent of perfectly water-tight brickwork; indeed he could take the Learned Gentleman at the present time to places forty yards below the Thames, where he would be as dry as he was then. Mr. ALEXANDER. expressed his sense of the kindness, but begged to decline the invitation. Mr. Cubitt stated that he had had forty years' experience as a civil engineer. He could confirm the previous testi mony as to the goodness of the prices proposed for the work of this excavation, and also that which had been stated with regard to the facility with which the work could be executed. In order to show the nature of the strata, Mr. Cubitt pro duced two specimens of the sand taken from two streets in Cheltenham, one a remarkably fine dry sand, and the other a coarser sand, mixed with small pima of stony clay. He believed the work could not be done in one month, but it might be completed, he believed, in two; and, in his opinion, the draught of the water from the wells would only be a temporary inconvenience, lasting for a short time. Several engineers from Cheltenham, who are intimately acquainted with the district, confirmed the previous testi mony. Mr. Ball, a land valuer, stated that he estimated the value of property to be taken at 164,69 A—that in Cheltenham alone being 85,000/. The quantity of land required is 141 acres. Mr. Saunders was recalled to state the difference of the fares in favour of the Great Western Company. This closed the case for the promoters, and it was agreed that Mr. Alexander should open the case of the landowners, for whom he appeared, to-morrow. The Committee then adjourned. GROUP XXI. the Bills comprised in this group re-assembled at the usual hour this morning; Mr. Baring in the chair. RocnDALE CANAL (SALE TO ri/ANCLIES TER AND LEEDS RAILWAY). The whole of the day was oc cu pi e d w i t h genera l evidence in favour of this sale. The evidence went to show that the affairs of the canal, which had involved an outlay of upwards of 780,000/., were in a very depressed condition, and it would, therefore, be for the interest of the proprietors of the canal, as well as the public, that this sale should be effected. _ Mr. BAIXEs addressed the Committee for the opponents of the measure at some length, contending that the railway , company were anxious to make a tool of the canal, and sa crifice the interest of the public. The Committee then adjourned. THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, APRIL 29, 1817. port, which would be preferred by steamers on account of its greater safety. Cross-examined by Mr Sergeant Munrwr—He would prefer Kirkcudbright as a sailing port before Annan. By the CiLantatax---He would rather accept a ss. freight from Kirkcudbright in preference to a 7s. 6d. freight from Annan. By Mr. Sergeant MURPHY—The distance from Belfast to Girvan was, perhaps, 52 miles, and to Kirkcudbright about 70. There was a great choice of ports accessible at all times on the coast of Ayr. He preferred Lock Ryan to Kirkcud bright. Mr. John Leathern, flax-spinner, Londonderry, said that the population of that town was 20,000. It had a large and increasing trade, and the exports and imports would be ex • tended by the formation of the railways which were now in process. The exports from Derry in the last year were in corn, 22,000 tons; flax, 4,000 tons; eggs, 14,459 boxes; pigs, 16,379 • butter, 75,000 casks. The trade of Belfast was greater ;hail that of Londonderry, but he did not think that the exports were so great. They had a considerable import trade. Newcastle sent them coal, coke, machinery, glass, salt, soda, and other articles, and received in return corn, provisions, and flax. Mr. SergeantMunpriv said that he was as much interested in the traffic as the other side was, and, therefore, he thought it would be unfair to take up the time of the Committee by cross-examining upon this point. Sir THOMAS PHILLIPS said that, provided they were not afterwards met by the other side with the argument, that they had not shown an equal amount of traffic with theirs, he would be quite willing to drop further examination on this point. The Committee suggested that he should confine himself to a few agricultural witnesses. Mr. Kennedy, of Kirkland, was called—He had property in Roxburgh and Kirkcildbrightshires, and leased properties in the counties of Dumfries, Kirkcudbright, Ross, Suther land, Argyle, and Inverness. He paid a rental for these lands of some 6,0001. per annum ; he paid in addi tion for wintering stock 2,030/. Ile understood that the extent of land leased by him was 200,000 acres, and that his ordinary stork of sheep was 45,000. He was also a cattle-dealer. He calculated that from the east of the water of Urr there would be sent into England, of fat cattle 3,000; half-fat, 16,000 ; fat sheep, 69,000; lambs, 30,000 ; store sheep, 15,000. To this would be added, by the Kircudbright branch, fat cattle, 2,000; half-fat, 18,000; fat sh ee p, 20,0 0 0 ; store sheep, 20,000. He had framed these calculations on very careful data, and he thought he was justified in think ing them correct. Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant MURPHY—At present half-fat cattle were sent into England by Stanmore and Arundel, and so on ; fat cattle were sent to Liverpool by sea, and were shipped at the various ports on the coast. Four fifths of the Galloway breed of cattle were sent to the east of England. The Northern Counties Union to Penrith would answer for their store sheep and cattle, and the Lancaster and Carlisle line to Northallerton (if short and cheap) would afford them still further advantages. Re- examined by Sir T. PHILLIPS—The line to Penrith being only 18 miles long would not be of any very great ad vantage to them, and to avoid trouble they world rather go at once upon the main line. Sir THOMAS PHILLIPS was proceeding to call Mr. Hunter, the second largest cattle- dealer in Scotland, to corroborate the evidence of Mr. Kennedy, but the Committee intimated that they were satisfied on this point, and would prefer hear ing evidence on the Canobie coal trade. Mr. Wright, manager of the Duke of Buccleuch's mineral fields, was intimately acquainted with the minerals of the district. At present the districts of Galloway were only sup plied by coal from England, and the cost of Newcastle coal. - at the different ports might be taken at 16s. Bd. per ton. B) the opening of the Canobie branch an abundant and cheap supply could be procured. The length of the fields in the upper series was three miles, and the coal was found in six seams of an aggregate depth of 35 feet 9 inches. The coal was of a very good quality, being equal to West Cum berland. In the lower series there were four seams of an aggre gate depth of 19 feet 6 inches. The price at the pit's mouth was ss. 10d. They could be delivered in Dumfries at about Bs. 6d., and in Kirkcudbright at something under 10s. Be yond the quantity used .for district consumption, he calcu lated that a considerable quantity would be shipped at the port of Kirkcudbright. The coal was adapted for coking, and could be delivered at any of the stations of the Glasgow and Ayr Company at 20s. per ton. The estimate of con sumption of coke by the lines connected with the Dumfries Company:was 40,000 tons, and out of this quantity he thought Canobie would supply one-third. lie thought that the in • terests of the Canobie field would be better cared for by the Dumfries Company, because the Caledonian might rather choose to encourage the coal which would come the longer distance upon their line. Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant Mullions—He had no experience of railway management, further than that he had frequently sent coals upon railways. He thought now as he thought last year, that if the navigation were equal, and the rates the same, Annan, as being the nearest port to the Canobie district, would be preferred. Re- examined by Sirl'Hostas Putuars—Kirkcudbright was not contemplated last year as a shipping port.—(Laughter.) Mr. Christie agreed in the evidence given by Mr. Wright, of the minerals of Canobie, both as to their quality and extent. Mr. Fawcett, proprietor of certain coal-fields on the line of the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway, said that considerable quantities of coal would be transmitted along the proposed Brampton line. Mr. Liddell, provision merchant, Brampton, proved the preference given by the district to the scheme of the Dum fries and Carlisle Company over that of the Caledonian. Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant Munratv—He did not know which of the schemes passed through the town of Brampton.—(Laughter.) Mr. Sergeant Muttony—Do you, in fact, know anything at all about it ? (Laughter.) Witness—lf I knew I would tell you.—(Laughter.) Mr. Carr put in papers, showing the amount of traffic, &c., from Newcastle to Glasgow. Mr. William Anderson had acquainted himself with the extent of the trade by steam from Glasgow to Newcastle, and it did not exceed 300 tons. The whole amount which would be abstracted from the Caledonian Company by the Dumfries Company would be 4,9901. 75., or, deducting 45 per cent. for working expenses, 2,774/. I4s. The loss to the Caledonian Railway on the Dumfries and Edinburgh traffic would be as equal to 27 miles of their line, and to compensate for that loss he brought upon their line at Gretna a large amount of traffic, for which they took no credit in the original prospectus. Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant MURPHY— He had heard that this traffic was omitted in deference to the opinions of the Railway Commissioners. He had heard that this formed an element in Mr. Locke's design. He had, when examined last year, mentioned only the port of Annan as a shipping station for coals, because no other port then existed. The Committee then adjourned till to -morrow, at twelve IRISH AND SCOTCH DISTRESS. We still receive painful communications respecting the need of food, seed, end clothes; and, at the request of the secretary of the United Relief Association, we give insertion to the following letters recently received: H.M.S. Scourge, Greenock, N. 8., April 19, 1847. MY DEAR SIR—You will justly charge me with being very remiss in not having acknowledged your kind note enclosing Miss Colville's 11., and the 41. from your asso ciation for poor Mrs. Gamble of Surgeview. I have just returned from the neighbourhood of Sligo, having been there with seed corn for Sir Robert ;Gore Booth, and I only received your letter on my arrival, and at the same time one from Mrs. Gamble, acknowledging the receipt of the 51., and, with much gratitude, begging of me to express her thanks. lam happy to say 20/. has been set to her. I must thank you to acknowledge the very great kind nees of my unknown friend "E.'s" gift for the same family. Should you have occasion to send her any more a letter, directed to " Mrs. Gamble, Surgeview, to the care of Mr. Rowe, postmaster, Bellmullet," will reach her in safety. lam very glad the association has taken up the seed question so earnestly. Ido hope it may be met by the people, and yet I fear in many cases it cannot, as the poorer landholders have no money ; and the landlords will not or cannot advance upon the growing c ops. I think in some cases they may hold back from fear, as, from the fact of the sowing being so restricted, the opinion has taken deep root that if they sow others will reap ; yet this would be removed if sowing became general. In the neighbourhood of Sligo Sir Robert and lady Gore Booth have done much geed, and it would be well for Ireland if all the landlords took as much personal interest in their property as he does. There is a degree of cleanliness and comfort throughout his estate which speaks more than words could do of the care taken of the tenantry. Lord Palmerston's property adjoins Sir Robert's, and he, too, has been doing a great deal of good. A healthy looking man, or a strong horse in the neighbourhood, is at once said to come from " Lissadele." A portion of Sir Ro bert's property (not more than 1,000 acres) is a sandy isthmus, the send of which extends over about 2,000 acres, the half of which is the poverty of J. Gethins, Esq. On this sand reside about 60 families (numbering about 300 soul.). The sand is a moving mass, and the drift bra been so great that many of the cabins are hid from view altozether, the sand being on a level with the tops of the chimney-hole. Sir Robert has got an emi grant ship (which his brother has bought) on her way to Sligo Bay, intending to pack off 300 of his tenantry if he can, with the view of enlarging his farms to 15, 20, and 25 acres. I believe he intends also to send those of his tenants who may have their habitation upon this sandy district. I went into the cabins in one of the villages, called T3allyconnels, in the parish of Drum cliffe, barony of Carberry, belonging to Mr. Gethins. The drift sand caused a cleanly appearance to both out side and in. The entrance resembled that of a rabbit burrow, and you had to crawl upon hands and knees to accomplish the task of getting inside. There was misery within the walls. A poor man sat en one , ide a small peat fire, and an old woman on the other; upon a log of wood. The old men was quite naked, and a skeleton form ho certainly displayed. His bed rug was the only thing he had over his boulders; this was his only covering by day or night. His limbs were much swol len at the extremities, and his tongue was like a piece of raw beef. I saw this poor old man the day before (Sir Robert having taken me), but on the occasion I speak of the surgeon was with me. He said he was be• yond medical interference. ',However, I insisted upon their getting him some rice, not with any hope of the poor old man recovering ; he is past that. In another and an adjoining cabin lay a poor old woman in bed, literally skin end bone, her legs, her arms, her chest, were frightful; her stomach was swollen very much, and she said she was in much pain; indeed, whilst stand.. ing by the side of her one of her paroxysms of pain came on, distorting her features fearfully. We desired them to get her rice, and feed her by small quantities at a time. These poor creatures are in great destitution, and ought not to be allowed to exist in such habitations, or on such a wilderness. I have no doubt there would be great diffi culty in ejecting them, b u t I am s t rong ly o f op i n i on ' some other place should be provided for them. In each of the cabins we visited, one or two such eases were to he found, confined to the aged and the children ; those of the family who were able to work were out on the roads or planting bent (a sort of rush which grows on the sand, and prevents its drifting.) The district was very healthy ; no fever or dysentery. I am now going to the Shetland or Orkney Islands with meal, and sail to-morrow. I have a great many letters to write, which must plead my excuse for this hurried one to you.—With many thanks to your com mittee, believe me, my dear Sir, very truly yours, J. CRA.WFORD CAFFIN. The Rev. G. H. Stoddart, &c. Singort Manse, Portree, Skye, March 30, 1847. Sir—l am advised to apply t o y our soc i e ty for relief for this parish, consisting of upwards of 3,000 souls, almost all now in a state of destitution, greatly aggra vated by the prevalence of measles and typhus. Some Christian friends in England placed small sums of money at my disposal, with which I have been enabled to relieve a great amount of suffering by giving food, medicines, and paying sick nurses and other attepdance. I am called on also very frequently to assist, and in some instances to defray the whole expense necessarily in curred in burying the dead. Every one acquainted with the Highlands mast re member that the funds for the benefit of the poor were intrusted to the minister and his elders for distribution ; and though the case is now altered, in consequence of the poor-law having come into operation, still those in dis tress think the minister is the only person to whom they should apply, and from this circumstance, coupled with the unfortunate state of the parish, were it not for the kindness of some clergymen of the Church of England, I would sooner leave my people altogether than be obliged to witness, not only daily, but hourly, sufferings which I could not alleviate. The supplies of oatmeal, the only food sent us by the central board, have been hitherto limited and irregular, and in the intervals between each supply the people have suffered severely. I could describe scenes I have wit nessed that scarcely would be credited in England. The famine is likely to be prolonged far beyond this year, for the want of any seed of any kind to be laid in he ground. There are hundreds of poor families in this parish, who have patches of land for potatoes, and which must be waste for want of seed. The potato crop being an entire failure none can be got for love or money in this island. Can your society do anything to alleviate our distress? If so, let it he done speedily; aced time is now passing away, and though we have applied in dif ferent quarters no help is held out to us. May God lend us help, and that right early. Leaving our cause in his hands, whose is the silver and the gold, and who can turn the hearts of those who are more favoured than we are towards us in the time of need. I am in great haste, your obedient servant, ANGUS MARTIN. The Rev. G. H. Stoddart, M.A., Secretary, United Relief Association, 40, Leicester-square. Romelee, Kanturk, Ireland, April 8. Dear Sir,—l have the pleasing duty of returning to you and the United Relief Association heartfelt thanks for the benevolent donation of V. for the relief and clothing of the destitute children and females of my vicinity. This enables me to add many a sufferer to my list this morning. May it please the Almighty to return a blessing fourfold to those generous benefactors of the destitute who so literally fulfil the desire of their Lord— " When I was an hungered ye gave me food; naked, and ye clothed me." Already the altered appearance of the children who have been for some months fed at the school, and taught, is remarkable. As those who have received new clothes come to the window to be reviewed each morning, it is indeed a pleasing sight; and I bless God, who has en abled me, assisted by the sympathy of the humane, to be of some use in this afflicted country. There is nothing more necessary now for the poor than clothing; most of their wretched garments are threadbare. I propose shortly (D.V.) giving an extensive order for home-made flannel. This will give employment, and render clothing less expensive. Irish made flannel is a most durable article, well suited for the poor. I have thus trespassed on your time, knowing that you are generously interested for the suffering poor of this much afflicted country.—l have the honour to remain, Sir, your faithful and obliged servant, MARGARET NEWMAN. Elm Cottage, Cheam, Surrey, April 16. My dear Sir,—l have been urgently requested by a friend in Mallow to supplicate your committee for a grant of clothing to the ladies' female relief association of that town. My correspondent, who is their secretary, is the wife of Richard Barret, Esq., J.P., chairman of the board of guardians, &c. With your permission, I will make a few extracts from her letter to me, on the subject of the prevailing distress. Speaking of the fever which is now raging in Mallow, she says, " several of the poor people are walking about literally dying, and when you recollect that those who recover are obliged to creep about in their old, disease infected clothes, you will not be surprised at the rapid spread of disease. Only imagine to b e lyi ng day and night in the same miserable . rags, w ith out any change whatever, when, if there could be a change of clothing provided for those few who recover, their old rags might be burned. Instead of this, the pestilential covering of the dead i s eager l y grasped by the living, to cover their emaciated frames. If we could but procure some clothing for them, it would be the greatest boon. An old cotton gown, without any under garments, is all such poor skeletons wear. Were I writing to a lady, I might tell of such wants as would amaze the women of England. I assure you that nearly everything in this house which could be converted into clothing—such as sofa-qpvers, cur tains, old carpets, coverlets, &e.—have disappeared long since. Our committee is trying to give employment to a number of poor women, and we hourly witness such scenes as no pen can describe. Our funds are so small that we cannot afford to give away gratuitously. I see by the advertisement of your valuable committee that they propose to make grants of clothing. They little know the incalculable benefits that will ari.',e from this branch of their brnevolent exertions. I am not capable of delineating the deplorable state of the poor in this neighbourhood, nor c add you bear to hear it. Yet all this and a thousand fold worse is the actual experience of multitudes of our fellow creatures. You will bear with me while I implore of you to use your influence with your truly valuable committee to let me have a grant of clothing for distribution by our ladies' committee amongst these poor people, to whom we are endeavouring to give employment. I assure you that in many cases i t i s dangerous to come into contact with them; and even our servants , though generally GROUP XLVIII. This Committee resumed its sitting this morning at twelve o'clock ; Lord Courtenay in the chair. Members present— Mr. Towneley, Mr. Chutepr. Seymcr,land Mr. 8.8. Cabbell. GLASGOW, PAISLEY, IC.XLMAR,NOCIC I AND AYR (No. XV.) CROSSING OF THE CLYDE. On the assembling of the parties, Mr. ANDREWS said, it was hi s pa i nful duty to inform the Committee thathis clients had received a communication from the Admiralty, which he begged leave to hand to the Commit tee. The effect of it was equally against both companies that were seeking to cross the Clyd e at the point proposed, as it contained; the decision of the Admiralty against any crossing of the river at the place proposed by both companies. What, therefore, he wanted the Committee to do was, to adjourn the Bills that related to the crossing of the Clyde till Monday, in order that further communication might be made with the Admiralty, to see if an alteration of that decision could not be obtained. The Royal Commissioners, who had been sent down to in qu i re i nto the subject, had reported strongly in favour of the propoced plan, and that no injury to -the river would arise thereon; it was, therefore, to be hoped that some modification of the Admi ralty's decision would be Obtained before meeting again. Mr. FOBSYTII, on behalf of the Riv er Cl y d e an d B r id ge trustees, opposed the adjournment. Mr. said that Cci(nuingth on behalf of the Caledoni an Com pany, though his clients had not rec e i ve d an y communication from the Admiralty, they did not expect a different decision from the one which had just been produced by his Learned Friend. He must, how ever, say that it was at?,unexpeeted decision. Last year the Caledonian had obtained an Act for the crossing of the river, subject to the approval of the Admiralt y ; this the Admiralty refused, and UT result was that the inhabitants of Glasgow, dissatisfied with this decision, to o k measures b y which Government Commissioners were sent down to inves tigate the whole matter. They sat three weeks making their inquiries, and made their report in favour of the mode of crossing proposed by the Caledonian Company. The ques tion now was, whether the veto of the Admiralty was to override; the discretion of that Committee and the Legisla ture in reference to this matter. The CHAIRMAN inquired whether the Admiralty, in cases like the present,fdid not communicate to the . Committee their decision ? Mr. ANDREWS-It is, I lbelleve, always done through the parties who promote the Bill. Mr. COCKBURN thought that if the Committee acted on the decision of the Admiralty it would be idle to proceed until they saw what could be done to modify that decision. If the Committee, on the other hand, thought that the report of the Commissioners should modify the veto of the Admiralty, then it would be better to proceed at once. It was a question entirely for the Committee, and he left it to their discretion. He would only remark that they had all their witnesses in town, and if they adjourned for a week or ten days, it would occasion great expense and inconvenience, Mr. AunitEws said the veto was a most important matter, as by the general Act the Admiralty could veto in all ~ , uch cases as the present. Mr. COCKBURN suggested that it would be easy to insert a clause in the Bill to except it from the operation of the general Act. The question would be for the Committee to say whether they were disposed to adopt a clause, taking the Bill for the crossing of the Clyde out of the operation of the general Act. Mr. ANDP.EWS intinuted that all he wanted wa3 an ad journment till Monday. Their scheme was somewhat dif ferent to that of the Caledonian, inasmuch as it pro ceeded from their line tip the south side of the river, and then croesed ; whereas the other scheme was proposed to go in a direct line to the river, and then to cross. The question was, whether the Committee would go on or postpone the matter to see what could be further done, as at present the veto of the Admiralty was against a crossing of the river below Stockwell Bridge. Mr. FORSYTH said his clients had opposed this crossing of the river at great expense, and they were anxious not to be put to any more. For the three past years the proposal for crossiug the Clyde had been successively vetoed. He hoped, therefore, the Committee would not allow the parties to proceed with their Bill, unless with the proviso, that if the Admiralty vetoed the crossing of the river, they would nevertheless go on with fie rest of their scheme. He, for one, thought it was perfectly hopeless to get the Admiralty to withdraw their veto, and it might, therefore, be considered absolute. He could not be a party to nei dless loss and heavy expenses by adjournment, as be thought the promoters ought to have ascertained the sentiments of the Admiralty long before now, instead of coming forward with it at the eleventh hour. They knew that the Admiralty had opposed the crossing for two years past, and it was too bad now to call for an adjourn ment of the question. He called on the promoters of the two Bills to make their election now—either to go on with the rest tf their scheme without the crossing, or abandon it altogether. In answer to the CHAIRMAN, Mr. ANDREWS said, the former vetoes of the Admiralty did not apply to the present mode of crossing the Clyde, with the exception of the decision of last year. The pro posal of last year, as of the present one, was to cross the Clyde between the New Glasgow-bridge and Stock well-bridge. Above the former bridge only small vessels ever went, and, therefore, no harm would arise to the navigation by the proposed scheme. Besides, in the present year they were in a different position to what they were last, inasmuch as' three gentlemen of great character and talent, one of them a naval officer, had gone down to Glasgow, and after being fully satisfied, by evidence taken on the spot, reported that no injury would be done by crossing at the point proposed. The room was then cleared for the decision of the Com mittee. On the readmission of the parties, The CHAIRMAN said that the Committee had agreed to postpone the question till Monday next, in order that the Admiralty might be:- communicated with ; and that to morrow they would take the other Bills in the group that were in a position to go on. The Committee then adjourned. GROUP LI. The Committee assembled this morning in Room No. 29. Present, Sir John Yarde Buller (chairman), Mr. Tollemache, Captain Plumridgs, Mr. Newdegate, and Lord John Manners. GLASGOW, DUMFRIES, AND CARLISLE, AND GLASGOW, PAISLEY, !ICILMAR NOCE, AND AYR (No. I.) Additional evidence was called by the promoters of this Bill. Mr. Alexander, examined by Sir T. Pitiful's, was called .o prove the protest which was put in by the promoters. Mr. Sergeant Munrxv wished to know whether he should be entitled to examine the witness on this subject? Sir THOMAS Plituars said he did not intend to examine upon the point. The CHAIRMAN then said that as the Committee had called for this protest, and as the examining Counsel did not desire to examine upon it, he thought that it would be unnecessary for Sergeant Murphy to ask any question on the subject. The protest was then read, and put in. Captain Turner, shipmaster, Dumfries, was ship's hus band of the vessels in which he had an interest. He was well acquainted with the coast and with the navigation of the Solway. The loss of vessels was not by any means rare steamer, on the which Sol in the Frith ; within the last tw o or three years no less than six vessels were lost on the coast o ya Solway. was i b ' e o bound membered the loss of the Solway from Belfast to Port Carlisle. He imported from ;and aDn tudh, in e fr saving, Dumfries. Kirkcud bright the English coal fields 1,200 to 1,500 tons yearly. with Is. 6d. for cde altt Belfastcost 8 1sa s,. some6d. atu s. pCearrtloisnle carriage, averaged 10s. in s bright were a port of shipment to the people of Belfast, would be about Os., as compared with the port of Annan at that time. Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant MURPHY—He bad never known any shipment from Kirkcudbright to Ireland. There was a large trade from Annan. The trade of Dum fries was larger, although Annan possessed a deeper river, and Could therefore accommodate vessels of larger burden. lie did not say that the Solway was lost in a fog, but he believed that she was crowded with cattle. She was lost at a place called Southerness, about 16 miles below Dumfries. The freight from Port Carlisle to Ireland was 78. 6d. He could not doubt that if a railway were extended from Canobie to Annan, the carriage of coals to this place would be lees by 3s. 4d. per ton than to Kirkcudbright, but then the latter place had the advantage in the sea carriage to Ireland. He knew that at low water ships would be obliged to anchor six miles front shore. He did not know that Lord Selkirk, whose grounds lay between the .!ea and the town, was opposed to railways. Mr. Henry Smith, living at Fleetwood, was a merchant, and agent for the North Lancashire Steam Navigation Com pany, and was well acquainted with the ports on the Solway. The navigation of the Solway Frith was more dangerous than any on the west coast of England. He included the ports of Carlisle, Annan, and Dumfries. Goods entering the Frith, and intended for Carlisle, were obliged to be transhipped and conveyed up the river in barges. Annan was a dangerous port for shipping. He did not mean Annan itself, but a place called the Waterfoot, about a couple of miles below. Glencaple was the port of Dumfries, and passengers and goods were obliged to be conveyed from thence to Dumfries, a distance of seven or eight miles When the tide was very low, which occurred perhaps thrice a year, they could not approach Dumfries nearer than Carsethorn, a place about fifteen miles down the river. The witness detailed the number of communications front Whitehaven and Fleetwood to Belfast. The distance from Fleetwood to Newcastle was perhaps 200 miles by rail, while from Kirkcudbright it was little more than 100. Goods sent from Belfast to Newcastle and the east of England at present went round to Glasgow, thence by railway to Leith; these were re-shipped and reached Newcastle by sea. He considered that competition was absolutely necessary to protect the public against railway companies. An instance in proof of this came under his notice. When only two companies were carrying from Fleetwood to Manchester the prices charged for carriage was as 13s. 4d. per ton ; but, after the North Union Railway came into the field, the price was reduced to 65., while attention to the comforts of the people was greatly increased. He considered that it would be of the highest importance that this Bill should be sanctioned. Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant MURPHY—It was his opinion that Kirkcudbright, if this railway were completed , would be the port for the traffic of Ireland intended for the south of Scotland. There were some good ports on the Clyde, but none of these would supersede the port of Kirkcudbright as tie key to the south of Scotland. Girvan would not be preferred, for per sons wou ld never think of sending their goods round b y A vr. H e did not know that goods w , re sent to the sout h o f S co tland in greater increase since the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway bad been opened. Return goods from Kirkcudbright would consist of woollen goods manufactured in the district. The only parts which had at present a communication with Ireland were Port Car lisle and Annan, and if the Kirkcudbright Branch were opened he conceived that, instead of one steamer, they would have three. If goods were to be sent from Kirkcudbright to the centre or west of England, they would probably be trans mitted by the Cal e d on i an to C ar li s le, and thence by the direct lines to th e west and centre— th a t was, supposing the rates alike; but, for the east of England, he thought they would be sent by the Dumfries branch to Milton, and thence on by the Newcastle and Carlisle. Captain Russell, harboar-master of the port of Belfast, said that there was a very considerable import trade from Newcastle to Belfast. The freight would be carried at 20s. a ton. If this branch to Kirkcudbright were opened, he thought that the southern trade would be exported from that EASTERN COUNTIES EXTENSION (HERM- FORD AND HITCHIN.) (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) Evidence was given on the part of some Mr. Smith, and other landowners, in opposition to this line. The Committee then adjourned till twelve to-morrow. GROUP XXI 11. The Committee met this morning at twelve, in Room B, Mr. Mackinnon in the chair. SOI7TH WALES DEVIATIONS (FOREST OF DEAN BRANCHES). Mr. TALBOT, Q.C., opened the merits of the Bill, and was proceeding to call witnesses for the Bill, whe❑ Mr. CROWDER, Q.C., insisted upon being heard before the Committee, in opposition, on behalf of the Severn and Wye Company, who have a tram-way in the neighbourhood of the proposed branch. After considerable discussion whether or not they ought to be heard, the Committee deliberated, and determined that, if they should admit the arguments of Mr. Crowder, no im provement whatever could be made on the locality. The opponents were, therefore, excluded. Witnesses were then called, who spoke to the advantages offered by the proposed branch running into the heart of the Forest of Dean, so as to communicate with the large and important coalfields in that neighbourhood, and furnish a ready transit to the port of Gloucester. The Committee then adjourned till twelve to-morrow. GROUP XXVI. The Committee met at twelve, Lord Harry Vane in the Chair. GREAT WESTERN (BRANCHES TO EGRADI, STAINES, dcc.) Mr. Brunel, engineer to the company, :in his examination by Mr. AUSTIN, stated the scheme, with some slight alters tions, was the same with that of last session, except that it branched through Brentford to the river, and beyond Staines to Egham. It communicated with Hounslow by a more convenient approach than the South-Western project, and offered large accommodation to traders by water at Brent ford. The g ra di en t s were genera ll y easy. Th e to t a l l engt h , Inclusive of the branches, was 17 miles, and the estimated cos t_500,0001. Witnesses were then called for the opponents of the line. The Committee then adjourned till twelve to-morrow. GROUP XXV 11. EASTERN COUNTIES (SPALDING AND WISEECH EXTENSION). The Committee met this day in Room No. 32 ; Mr. Card well in the chair. The whole day was occupied in hearing general evidence 0 favour of the Bill. There was no point raised of general nterest. The Committee adjourned at four o'clock. GROUP , XXXII I. LEEDS CENTRAL. (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) The cage on behalf of the Leeds Central Terminus having remainder closed, the LEEDS, imi.vsnuny, AND IYZANCHESTE3L ev :11 e n (EXTENSION TO WAKEFIELD, &.c.) was proceeded with. 'Aliri.e BAINEs opened the case in a brief address. La e, alleging the superiorityof this scheme over the other competing sc of the sitting was occupied with general The Committee hensa in . the group. adjourned. G ROUP XXXIV. The Select Committee appointed to consider the merit 3 of 'HE BATTLE of the JOURNALS, (From the Dublin Pita.) A sort of death struggle regarding prices is going on among the Liverpool papers. The mortal competition commenced by one of the public journals reducing the charge per copy to threepence, the stunt), paper, and interest of money, amounting to twopence halfpenny, thus leaving one halfpenny sterling for house rent. editor's salary, wages, taxes, ink, &c. This was resisted by the Mercury, one of those so called liberal journals which boast of the unlimited patronage of all classes of the public ; but Mercury himself has found it necessary to clip his wings and come down plump to the earth, thus proving that he is not valued at a rush more than his contemporaries. In the desperate frenzy of the day, other reductions are offered as a lure, and we fear that the system will not only degrade the press in the eyes of the public, but ultimately curtail the proceeds of the workmen.—Hereford Journal. [lt is totally impossible for any honest intentioned newspaper proprietor to reduce the price below the pre sent standard, whilst the stamp, paper, and other inci dental taxes remain as they are. Nctwithstanding that our Liverpool contemporaries have fifty times the adver tising patronage accorded to their Irish brethren, such an income as id. per sheet, to meet all expenses, is a " little too bad." One of the Liverpool papers, in re marking on the above paragraph, says : " The paper which commenced the ';three-penny system, and whose competition with the established journals is to bring down the wages of the workmen employed on the press in Liverpool, is inconsistently enough, a professed advocate of the interests of the working classes." We are sure that the public would not, in order to obtain their newspaper a penny or two cheaper, desire to see the mechanic deprived of the hard-earned fruits of his labour. Some people, with more money than wit, were lately induced to start a " very cheap" newspaper in Liverpool, but were forced to make a hasty retreat from the speculation, although they had the advantage, not only of having to pay reduced wages to thclr work men, but of not paying them at all ! STATE OF TRADE. ----- MANCHESTER, TUESDAY, APRIL 27.—The state of the money-market has almost entirely put a stop to business here. The only purchases made, either of goods or yarn, are in small quantities to make up as sortments—generally at previous prices. It is under stood that the execution of some rather considerable orders from the United States is prevented by the diffi culty of negotiating the bills, or using the credits on which they are founded. ROCHDALE, MONDAY, APRIL 26.—We have had an other dull market; but the few pieces that have been sold have fetched former prices. At the close of last week the Government orders arrived, which will com prise about 9,000 pieces. These pieces have been very equally divided amongst ten or twelve manufacturers. In the wool market there is no change to report. HALIFAX, SATURDAY, APRIL 24.—Scarcely a buyer has been seen in the hall to-day; and business has, con sequently, been excessively flat. The state of the money market, and the rise in price of provisions, com bine to throw a deeper gloom over all departments of trade: and the feeling amongst the manufacturers to-day was less hopeful than for some time past. In the yarn trade we have no alteration to notice, except, perhaps, an increase of caution on all sides. What is doing in the blanket trade is sufficient to take off the present limited supply of brokes and noils, which are, therefore, kept firm; but the wool trade generally is in a languid condition. HUDDERSFIELD. TUESDAY, APRIL 27.—Not more than three or four buyers of any importance have at tended our market to-day, anal they appear to have used extreme caution in all purchases. The rise in the price of corn damps all speculation; and were it not for considerable orders being in hand for the American and continental markets, we fear we should be experiencing the distress of some of the cotton districts. LEEDS, TUESDAY, APRIL 27.—This day's market presented a dull appearance, but as many manufacture's arc employed to orders, principally on American ac c,unts, the supply of goods to cur cloth halls is neces• sarily very limited, and the transactions very insig nificant. In prices there is no alteration whatever.— Manchester Guardian. The PC, _oe ight Hon. Joseph Planta made his will in December last, leaving his entire property to his wife, and has recommended that his papers should be destroyed, but that his wife should first consult with her son, Adolphus Oom, and further obtain the opinion of his esteemed friend Sir Woodbine Parish, as to what it might be necessary to preserve ; but where positive directions are left on the papers themselves he has requested that they may be most punctu ally executed. DREADFUL ACCIDENT TN FARRINGDON-STREET.-- On Saturday a youth named Williams, while driving a carrier's cart along Farringdon-street, was suddenly thrown forward upon the road, and before the horse could be stopped, the wheel had passed over both his legs. He was accord ingly taken to St. Bartholomew's, where he now remains in a very dangerous condition, anxious to assist, are often unwilling to appro Li ch them. , Now all this vvculd be greatly mitigated, if not entirely removed, by cleanli ness; b u t this, of course, ore can e° insist on when th e p oor , wre t c h e d creatures lave not t! single, rag beyond that whi c h hangs on their emaciat ed bodies. Whole families are found by the visitors in b ed ' or rather, I should say, cove r e d up in filthy WM/ for want of clothes of any description. II I would willingly pay the carriage of any parcel or bale the committee may be kind enough to ' ant The state of our poor children at the parelva, schools is truly distressing. They are all in r Ws. shall have very few left after this grievous sickness', One word of comment fr om me on this harrow in g "' of misery would be wholly superfluous. I shalt 00 1 9 es a that I earnestly commend this case to the hutallue 5/3 generous attention of your committee. I remain, my dear Sir, Very faithfully yours, The Rev. G. H. Stoddart. J. D. HA ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIO. LAND). The following is an (IR abs E tract of th e annual i'el) to ort'o e the Ecclesiasti ca l C omm i ss i oners for Ireland to th' e fe iest Lieutenant, for the year ending August 1, 1846. issued by order of Parliament) :- We, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for I;:reitln e ci ri, whose hands and cor p orate sea l are h e reunto O the beg leave to report t o y our E xce ll enc y, pursuant 0 provisions of the Act 3d and 4th William IV., 0 - ding proceedings of the Commissioners fur the year en the Ist of August, 1846. wet The repairs of the parochial churches, the Cr itlgs , number of which are old and dilapidated baix",„;bst nocessarialy absorb each year a large p o rtion of And ever moneys may be available' for Church worlo.l the although many churches require rebuilding, d i t ime funds admit of it, the Commissioners are able, fre ai n e to tai time, to select such only as are most pressing, % e ve defer the others as long as the buildings can be h o rch Out of the sum of 23,687/. ppt for to works within the 3,•ear, 175/. only has been allo cilt pai the purposes of enlargements. By this small oPccoe ture, aided by private subscriptions, increase a! rr ees modation will be afforded for 335 persons, in the o u r , in of Desertserges in the diocese of Cork, Kil6tbrn e the diocese of Cashel, and of Drun - igooland 5 0 the e for cese of Dromore. 2,7361. Is. 7d.-has been orl°,_ettereen completing the reb u ildi ng o f fi ve o f t h e churol e i be re tioned in the la s t re p ort ; 4,000 1 . to commence „tered; building of eleve n c h urc h es w hi c h were urgentlY r e4- n tled and 12,771/. 93. 9d. is in th e course of being es ' e in the repair of 888 churches. We b Of the residue of the sum appropri a ted, t°,, e e , ea works, 1,0001. has b een expendedinrepairing ' n - the closing fe nces o f 1 31 c h urches; 305 1 . 6s. B'l'l-lean' erection of stove s an d b e ll s; 200 1 . i n t h e internal c ing of churches; and 2,500/. in external Pal- 11 ° 4 ' 0 f tbig An advantage resulting from a distribution sia of kind is, that the Commissioners have obtained, in to these several objects, contributions eln °llnti .eent s ' 8,465/ 7s. 10d., viz., for the purpose of enlarg e- w hich 445/ ; of rebuildings, 7,144/, 6s. 3d., of r for 2,841/. 13s. Bd. has been received within the Ye s e ; t ied external painting and cleaning, 3241. Bs. 6d.; W s, go.. by the parishioners, and for the providing of st ° " t heir 351/. 13s. Id. ; th e su b scri b ers there b y man ifesting es or desire to co-oper a t e w i t h t h e C omm i ssioners in the undertaken by them. s Connected with the preservation of the churcb e n ' t jea veral matters continue to engage the particular at; 0011 of the Commissioners, which are more ireport en . n this may at first appear. A system has prevailed I a t he country of interring bodies close to the fabrics, to ot i n g effect has been to engender damp, and rot the boost and adjoining woodwork; this, together with th ea off general want of gutters, pipes, and sewers to carry% the the water, has cause d cons id era bl e injury The churches and expense to the funds of the boa r been in enclosing of chur c h es by suitable fences has en' some cases wholly neglected, and in others the ndson closures have been so insufficient, that the dere. e , earl the Commission ers un d er t hi s h ea d are increas ln ta ll ote es considerably. It i s on l y b y d egrees that these the can be attended to ; but the Commissioners being satisfaction to state th a t th e y are in the course of wit remedied as opportunities present themselves 011 funds will admit. Cm is ' The followin g ' c h urc h es , r e b u ilt by the i n n , set' sioners, h ave b een opene d f or ce l e b ra ti on of D i diocese' vice within the year :-Loughguile, in Conn°_,,`. atilt capable of accommo d at i ng 320 p e r s o n s ;_Erni o eese , M ; in Ferns di ocese , f or 880 Gallen, in Meath ch , yo e for 220 ; Charl ev ille and Cloynepriest, both in,. t. end diocese, the former capable of accommodating 2°' A i o . the latter 90 p e rsons ; and Dysertenos, in Leighlin " cese, for 120 persons. or And the churches now in p ro g ress of rebuildiek for the rebuilding of which , althou g h not yet oonneenee,u,_ funds have been prov ided, either wholl y or in part, by file insoire of thesecases, a Commissioners,are23s in number. n those of Ballyhalber t Whitchurch, the Commissioners have only contriving about one-fonrth of the expense, the parishioners havi undertaken to provide the remainder; but the works are carried on under the superintendence and direction . 1 Iv ° here architect and directors of the board, In other case-'e cora fupds have been provided for one or twoyestrhse, missioners have not been able to commence from the difficulty ex e p nenced in procuring. rrh delays are not obtaining the necessary consents. _Leese - • d b attributable to the Commissioners and are occasioned circumstances over which the 9 y have no controul. Gordo In relation to the moneys arising under Bishop the will, from the inappropriate title of Cahir Parish' der diocese of ne w tbb s tl it il e d s i a ungdg ismore, of which the Commissioners, by of the Court of Chancery, have been ma de trusts ears separate acc oun t h as been opened, by which i t a q the that a sum of 2,446/. Ils. 4d. stood to the credit o d trust on the Ist inst.; as the testator's will limitreotl:ae, hcquest to the rebuilding and repairs of old ore : 11 , 0 churches in the dioceses of Waterford and Lisna , un de r Commissioners have, with the approbation , a " out t he the direction of the Bishop. appropriated ther! _ rah ef sum of 2,000/. for the rebuilding the parish c n .,, u le , to Drunacannon, in the diocese of Waterford, an° ti r r e ared afford accommodation to 500 persons has been p r and submitted to the Bishop for his approval. that lt a ti p y p e e adrisgebyi dignities, fivereturnsp promotions re o h f enda, an d fiafntyd o p t h; a, whichcer Iv i s el benefices, have becam e vac ant within the yea r . xa nine are liable to tax, and the rest are not lisT r i e ee respect to the dignities and prebends, the L""__ da don tenant and Privy Council have, on the recomtneu of the Commissioners, been pleased to suspendatthlieederPai pointrnents of clerks to the treasurership of the c ; c es belonging a l church of Ardfert, of the annual value of 48L. 199 ; e %he to Taghsaxon and Kilmeen, preben cathedral church of Tuam, the former . o_f .. tT a. a r a u n e value of 5/. 12s. 6d., and the latter of 1161. S dr i e to Kilcooley prebend, belonging to the cathe of Elphin, of the annual value of 84/. Ils. 46 O SP Ii- With respect to the perpetuity purchases, eis cations to purchase have been received from i O3 , l ? at ions tenants, and 52 from sub-tenants. Of the apPac prop from the sub-tenants, so many as 44 related to Prc'r church comprised in one lease from the see. t c f Purchases have been completed to the amoral pi, 3,7781. 2s. 11d., of which sum 2 , 499 /. 10 s. Bd. has ve n , " paid into the Bank of Ireland to the credit of the Pe r , 0 1 ,4 tuity purchase fund, and the residue has been secured . re way of mortgage. The smallness o f t h e amo unt c b e y iv c e e d rt i a v i i n th i i n n qu th ir e ie y s 'eli m r, ad u e nd b e y r t this he head p. wasc iioccasionedCouncil, lation to the calculations of the Com riv m Y issi o o u n n e c rs, w „ h t ic e h caused the approval of the terms of purchase in tw, e 7; two f gases, amounting to 9,923/. I Is. 6cl, t o be deiN e d 8,9241. l everal months. A sum, to ihe a mount t i e 4s. 2d., has also been lodged in the Bank t° fo r e -e credit of the fund, in liquidation of mortgages beret is granted on former sales. And from these paY merl eee ts further instalment to the amount of 10,000/. has la t e paid to the Board of Public Works, in liquidation %or loan of 100,000/. a d vanced by that' Board to the i f 5 0 tnissioners under the provision s o f th e Act 4th 00 " t he William IV., c. 90. And the residue, after defrayi n g et necessary expens es , h as b een i nveste d i n GoverlD" securities. i . e quern Under the pr ov i s i ons o f t h e Acts 3 d an d 4th " 2 0 of IV., c. 37, and 6th and 7th Victoria, e• 99, the reale 2,338/. Os. 11d. has been paid to the Bishops curates, and Kilmore ; 6 , 362/ . 15 s. 4 d . h as b een p a id to itio der vicars -choral, and diocesan schoolmasters. And 101, the provisions of the 3d and 4th Victoria, °' 930/. 7s. 10. has been paid in augmentation of lied' benefices, ex c l us i ve of the sum of 4,451/. 2s. 10d: i i i i ) gi,ere under Primate Boulter's Bequest to augmentataa ithin poses, thereby making th e total payments ma de gam of the year on thes e severa l accounts amou nt to th e 14,082/. 6s. lid. of t be An account of the receipts and disbursetnen•sb.s re - Commissioners to th e Ist instant is annexe d t' ? t te lbsTe port, showin g th e sources from whence t h e reef tPre bee ll arisen and the specific purposes to which they applied. , NS (Signed) g• JOHN G. Al gA G RICHARD P 3-11 1• . EDWADD gE AT R. DERRY, &c.n,,,rg. lIENRY MER JOHN C. ERIC. WM. C. On the 9th inst. at Ira Lambeth, wife of Mr. John Downey, of a son. Charles 11 ' On the 22d inst., at IL b ' lady a m urgh, the Wit" Corlett, Esq., of a daughter.C a ptain On the 22d inst., at Canterbury, the lady of titer. mer, c her Majesty's 14th Light Dragoons, , of a ~.h ow On the 22d inst., Chatham, of Gritlin - 1 - I(. ' •e) at the d ovilteiir l'',sq., of Ashton Keynes, Wilts, Cain 62 Regiment, of a son. , be gat ,oc IY t t i ..l t r r H e e3t., On the 25th inst. at at St. Mar aret's Vicarage, the wife of the Rev . . James Whyt g e of a scn. . ~.. B e sleft of On n da t t l i i g e h 2 t 6 e t r l . l inst., at Upper Clapt'on, Mrs. Frederic& v . aht on, Sussex-square, On the 26th inst., in Sasso are Kemp-tol"' ll ' Mrs. Thom as S e lb y , of a son. In fort DIED. e sselt i° late W. Meggy, Wight, Charlotte, the beloved wife of William a fit of 3 ' '-Qeven hours after the rupture of a blood -v . 6 „ . o f coughing, at Chester House, East Cowes, 1 0 f ovi , Tu ll, a ged 8 8 . c:r Kingdom, f ioi l' i r i i l n t: i in t ei v ,2 - a s 2g q d u e id a n r s, e to ,. :il .1 Millman - street, i Newington, nlan . s and tre e v t , o u m n r g . es t d al:llsTc br of the Esq., of Chelmsford, aged 35. On the 23d inst. at li.iwkshead, Herts, Admiral . ', Davidge Gould, G. ' 0.8., Vice-Admiral of the ljn itc“ Sarah gar- On the 24th inst. at at Eversley Haute, Mrs. shall, relict of the late . Rev. C. R. Marshall, aged SO. 1 On the 25th inst., at Leamington, eutant-0319°e Pochlington, aged 72. On the 26th inst., at Strafford-grove , Essex, lll° m4s Curtis, Esq., aged 77. On the 26th inst., at Upper Tooting , Sarah, t h e wife of • T ' Lucas, Esq., aged 82. a 93 On the 26th inst., at Croydon, Henry R ead, Esq., age- , NT , Lon4on: Printed an 4 1 Published by MURDO YOUNG. of strand, Printer, The Sun Office, 10.112, Strand , in the r ii of the Savoy, in the County of Middlesex, TivrO chi l t " 29, 1847.