The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-03-05 00:00:00

I ‘‘ Chese jurymen lived from the a ssize 11 excuse for their non-attendance. . Ve such eredence as they thoughtine at Would they say to gm statement sters had received Boni good authors hot expecied that any jurors would i tend the next assizes at Kilkennt imidation of jurors. He would De' nds upon the intimidation of witn 'orMed the houSe that many witne,, to quit the Queen's county on accono` idence before the special commissierl read a long list of cases in which 13e ' xen intimidated, but in so indistinct, is words were only half heard in the which he was called on to establish 11 measure which ought to be adopted ,U remedy the defects of the ordinary la ft would be necessary for him to eel' i e main provisions of the bill, in order I to the grievances of which ha compl' l ! alculated to protect the loyal and the itted that the most severe and objeel 'as that part of it 'which did awa y with; : this was absolutely necessary to pr . !' on from saving criminals from conO evidence indisputably warranted a e Ol , l uggestions to get rid of this clause , who, though they admitted the neC e ve measure, objected to the trial of 0.0 iis bill without the intervention of a .1' nilitary tribunal, as compared with a t 5 I a jury in criminal cas es , was no t a o,` a ordinary times ; but he had heard i used instead of this military tribunal, 4" se suggestions a military tribunal w eis . de. It had been suggested that a Pa tt i t round the country to try these dist without the assistance of a jury. Now , the habituating the people to this new 'ithout the intervention of ajury would and, as a precedent on the statute-b o ° the mode of trial suggested in the pree! ion was, that instead of a jud ge o f ase` n standing, appointed by the Crowu , without the intervention of ajury. Ile tion was even still mor e objectionnd, g a judge to act without th e a ss istao 4 tit that the proposal to gi ve th e Cr ing ds judges barristers, who might ma'. ping-stone to future promotion, was l'. .oposal to give it the power of a ppoiu, beyond the hope of pr omo ti on , to to. .se new tribunals. He admitted that an unconstitutional exercise of pow ttempted, in a measure of this kind,. irse as would accustom men to look at ithout disgust, they would inflict a gr!, ountrv, for they would leave it i n the P° such . ' a measure more easily when the s urgent than at present, and when r be adopted without i n j ur y. Th e othe r referred to Whitefeet outrages, was tb tended to prevent signals from being se who made signals to warn the neig ce were moving. The provisions of adopted from those of the law for the . These provisions were undoubtedly the accused party to prove a negative'' ike the signals for a maliciou s or se diti' however, been adopted in the a l so , t be blamed as an unconstitutional inn° I indeed the only part of the bill which, ole of Ireland,—for the provisions vi'l ;cribing were only to extend to those trages were actually Doing on, and wh , , , , imed,—was nothing but a re newa l of v" ct. This part of it would extend to the I been argued on the other side that th ween the political agitation and the 31and. Some hon. gentlemen had eve tat the existence of political agitation ns of preventing these outrages frog atlemen making the most violent and agitating the country by fanciful stat) ;:h did not exist, and by exaggerated !s which did exist, thought that they C'' t which they thus created, by ending reb pretences about their love of social. ) have the King's peace preserved in/ night that they could thus easily soo y had thus industriously irritated, the/ . lure, and must be blind to the march I ignorant of the accumulating force, t. The hon. and learned member for erted that political agitati o n wou ld pu t , and" had more than once insinuated put them down. He should be sorry nan, and he would do the hon. and to the justice to say that he (Lord Altho t. He believed that if the hon. member Of tat power, he would long since have es the country which he professed to love se I to contend, that the existence of s' eets of Ireland was most objectionabl e As they were to be made use of as a . F not be used as a means of intluenci', ers in that house ? 'When gentlemen.f, had already been made to th ese asso cir j uncing individual members of Parliano; , cause of their country (hear, hear,) tat never was there any institution required the careful superintendence °, would undoubtedly hear many declan9, iberty which no man in that h ous e et ; but was it a state of lib er ty w hick ying ? Was it not rather a state of to d even anarchy, utterly imcompatible Iv was not a mere name, its benefits de, and were seen in the protection w the security which it conferred upon further observations, the noble lord iat the bill be read a third time. lad listened to the noble lord's sta , convinced of the justice and p o li c y 0 ! lon it. Had ministers given the or v a fair trial before they proposed the experiment of the present bill? The* tly bound to do so before they called ( lye a whole nation of the benefits coi liberty. (Hear.) Why not, he repe ,ribunals a fair trial, before adopting tires as the abolition of trial by jury at were the tender mercies which a • ich would prevail over th e f ears o f vil jurisdiction ? Was it the t en d e r aess who refusetLto give.such answers feel disposed to receive—that is to rirtence, saying that " he had' no evideO or three months ? He would propo 1 noble lord's motion. He could assurti ring so he had no feeling of hostility government collectively, to indulger, induce the noble lord to pause e re ite,.; ;overnment, and, as it might be, that :ereuce to a measure which n o honest 0 bout alarm and regret. The right ,t d with moving, as an amendment, tho l ime on that day fortnight. wholly opposed to the noble lord's mull t would aggravate the ills it was intenul hat, it would fail in attaining the 1 -end contemplated by its framers. eluded a speech of considerable forc e, , ,st way to prevent immoderate desires t demands enforced, was to g ra nt i ° requests of justice. ...,LI supported the motion of the noble le.- , ,ty of the 'government was to give thel el o ed protection. If that w e r e n o t aft o e be exacted. , that in supporting' the amendment oil Lambeih, he did so not from an/ neat, but to the measure itself, ad declared to be arbitrary -and despO, EY supported the motion, and depro , r to agitate Ireland. 3 of the agitators, wished to make 11 1 1 whole cause of all the . proceedings was invent itself; and their after-vengeance by the fact, that the people had, in s Linen, and not those whom they justly I r enemies of the country. The thing to do with those who now c en paid their court to Catholics—who a yalty of the yeomanry, and then excl ; to answer theirown purposes—to f office. All the efforts that might V. people 'of Ireland of their just rights - !f, might have recourse to gagging THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD. o to f putting down the press--to extinguishing the functions in effectual, changing the venue ; but all would be in '4g: Non me us hie sermo. This was not his opinion subsea Was the °Pinion of all who thotight rightly on the a ubJe 4 4- S - lost Aa jt*kx Sai4 whatever the hon. gentleman who had 6 „ l y. s ., . own might think of the character of gentlemen , this side the house—however the hon. member might de uoik,... ~_ , ,6., . ‘-` then as adverse to liberty, and inclined towards arbi ;;lf,nl.4. o rCtces, he thought he might safely appeal to the testi r ~ °tier aud better keown political lives than his own, fri eia l a tA upon the house to say whether his noble and hon. 1 . 1 were likely; on right or trivial grounds, rashly or need r to interfere with the liberty of the subject. (Cheers.) the y night, week after week, month after month, had P i t e w il er ie.;'°l-s' importunities, taunts, and appeals of gentle te4ssteildQ them to adopt measures beyond the ordinary it kaw with a view to repress disturbance in that centitrs c,'f Clue ''.. "se asked it in the eases of Clare, Galway, or .the • i ll; County, ministers had shown any desire to go beyond v i itii _ its of the law, so long as there appeared a possibility of al`rt l 4' the authority of the law by ordinary means ? lb s jar k Clare and Galwav they had attempted to enforce e ee d:r Vaalout calling for additional powers, and they sue courtet; 4141 here he w i s h e d to give the gentlemen of those assi , t l e es credit for the Manner in which they came forward and bee d the government in the enforcement of the law: as of t a e l : flier' they put themselves at the head of the population fronqet;tr counties, and met the cry pet intimidation with a bold Juries, arid took npon themselves the invidious task of aiding 0 4 ,r •flniinistration of justice at a moment when the lower at :ot persons shrunk frOm the performance of their duty— the pa„oin,vnt when hut for the exertions of these gentlemen open t l a y w eould not have been enforced. . (Hear.) He here said 4tio , without regarding whom he might offend by the declar tiutn, that the gentlemen of Kilkenny had shrunk from their bail; hat thgy had not placed themselves iu the front of the ire _ e, nor displa.yed that degree of zeal and energy that might outsetll.°u aeeb 112 Y have been expected from them. He did not cast the't4ust imputation on those gentleman, when he said that if have 4,41 acted with more promptitude and vigour, there would a better chance of repressing the disturbances in the oosu e t, ' ear.) But when those disturbances had arrived at era pitch as they had now reached, and when the ordinary IlitatiOns of the law, though applied in the most unflinching t rar nn er, bad failed of effect, there was no reason, but the con e, Y, when the King's government should not step in and ay, , 4 for d whatever be the mischief of establishing a precedent t e /ling powers beyond the law, it is our paramount duty cui P a r te ers e the adoption of such a course as we considered cal py, a t n o d restore and reinforce the law to protect life and pro re,rt give 13eace to a distracted country." (Cheers.) jaae.,ieture which he should have to draw, of the state of crime con : L jeland, he allowed was not universally applicable to the ii „', l lion of the country at large. On the contrary, he con t Lea his statement of its applicability, with few exceptions, to r, e xtent of th e p rov i nce of Le i nster; not t h at h e meant to b)r that did not exi s t p art i a l di stur b ances i n ot h er p ar t s , b u t of I,Fsted at the government's claim to further powers On the state province; and as in asking for extraordinary powers reofitiisters did not rest their case on the condition of the whole did ret and, but on the state of a particular portion of it, so they , not seek to apply the required remedy to the country at j a r, but only to that part which seemed to demand its appli on e a . He feared it would be necessary for him to trespass titlzturza tte au n d ti h o y n of the house, bv reading extracts from the ceorrespoudetice of many individuals in various parts of the detailing the paticulars of several acts of in trite t outrage, involving . peculiarly atrocious shades of attentione.The first cOmmunication to which he should call their co was'contained in a letter from a magistrate of Qiieen's rait.itutY• According to the writer's humble view of true Jibe- of 1 Y a nd wise policy of government, he placed the principle Withl nguir Y into grievances with a view to redress them along was the ~4 -4sh and determination to resist a tyranny that a misnamed m any-headed liberty, and which involved. the despotism of I,,,a—t:nY-headed monster, thus combining the opposite disad- Th e P s the Government of an autocrat and of a democrat. t i rs , Picture which this gentleman gave of then tate of things in eir a . , Part of Ireland was extremely melanchol He stated the ii t t l L' lts tences of one or two outrages that had been committed kid 1 1 , ( , ) , 1 ", 1 ', neighbourhood, which clearly showed that ordinary lews,„ - -"Atiai exertion, with a view to the repression of vio hsC-,,' was now futile, if not foolhardy. He stated that outrages tie u .vl,ceeded to the height of an almost generatdisorganiza r se curi rat a participation in crime alone appeared to confer te at , Y among the humbler classes; that such being the case, few ,Yriv'ere eouipelled t o join the lawless disturbers, while the s i ons in) refused to unit e i n or ven t ure d t o r e sist their aggres qt% ' were left una id e d by any tangible law, unprotected by the . de li power. The right hon. gentleman then proceeded to ( 144int e e a serie s of outrages, with which the public is well ac w tts , and said that this statement, strong and striking as it, axid'r'l d veyed only a p ar ti a l ex hibiti on o f tote facts of the case, dis or ,' not bring und e r review the utter demoralization and tte r 'e a ' l ization of society which prevailed. The Attorney-Ge7 tht :i said that he did not find, in 150 cases which he had gone iu s t a v ,gh; 4 single one 'connected with tithes, (hear,) I,iur any, Obj e - e - , e ' e ,Of the Person or property of a gentleman b,emg tile 1a1, 0 ,, -- ' l ' aggression ; but the Weak, the destitute, the poor = h u Crers, widows, humble families-,---in a ward, the most 4 7 we_eiess and unprotected classes, were the victims. There Ithleil)arties who were exposed to acts Of violence. and outrage, lei l L ,,, t4de the bloud run cold when they were recounted. tom: e Ls.) If this was the liberty for which gentlemen opposite ittf r i n ',ed—the liberty which the . government was charged with oth er 7g im p—the liberty not of doing what was most injurious to fence' but of injuring and wronging those who were most de 7 'er, of . esB anti.. tinprotected—the liberty of assassination, of inur . - a • u'idnight burglary and outrage, of deteraitilled:c.9 3ls l"! 3 cY, io 4 f a r t , 44t ale . laws of the land and the Well-being PI soci ety—if o_t h e 4getuent on this species of liberty ministers were accused,. t „'' °lfitted that they were indeed most guilty (cheers) ; but it I ":e v t, r°te et and ensure the liberty of the well4spesell and the tho 4 j, f to inaintain the public peace—if to. vindicate the au tie-1 of the law—if to guard the pour man's hearth from ont -14 , ae the dnty of a government, call this a coercive,. despotic, wia.onstitutional, and arbitrary bill if you will,--tiesignate it by le4 t ,t,erut of reproach you please ; but he . coutended, neverthe ' Ote' Lit 't it was a bill which, far from inittring or destroying, ia o3t airectly to preserve and perpetuate liberty in its truest and cilltr 6e nuine character. His noble friend had stated details of ajt o , a + ge,s . suffici en t to justify ministers in the course they had rn a ilt e e n, but he had stated them in the plainest and simplest ot i u - , k r ; and if he (Mr. Stanley) found any thing to complain liu t t she speech of his noble friend, it was that he had rather det erstated the case and had not dwelt on all the horrible ci l i 4 a ils of those atrocious offences with sufficient fulness and ac ' 11 01 ; e3r. His noble friend had mentioned the murder of Mr. by ;!t 4 , 11 1, which Was attempted to be—could he say?—palliated th -,': ['colourable and learned gentleman opposite, who stated th e 4 ",...,r(161' not to be an act of a deliberate nature, but merely_ `qUari;] of labourer, and arising out of an accidental the 0 1' the moment. Let' the house look at the account of 414,..InUrder as' given by a person on the spot. . This gentleman r . ti ci s'cl, that, an express having arrived informing. him that Al_ r. • itoe,J.„ 4)ll had been shot, he hastened to the, spot, and found the nicea„ , Ulan already dead; he added,. that the deceased was an Olii - a - i ' ; Lve, quiet man, guilty of no crime except the collection . Dearly lies, which were his only support. Air. HoustoniNas etkui,,,'•`"',Years of age. This atrocious murder, which had been . Igtic; 4tt " ii 4 inid-day, was no. act of drunken irritation or yio to a 4 i =after he had been murdered, no one could be prevailel on 116 1ii st ' . 'a carrYink the cOrpse into 'the house, and. when Mrs. tr e ,i i 911, readerecr frantie b y the smile, iveut on her knees, en 'tati4 t he people present to assist the narratoi of the circum- Iplest h a nd the irthicii in Viinging'the body in, they met the re ki-41.-`,),t only with a tefusai,lant with 4eers and mockery. is ~,.s'atalti;„`L!er.) Was he to g 6 ;tern by itein through this tong : .4 enf',, l e of crimes or need he do more 'than ens, that of ali t ,sit.ln lim u- lerS recOun'tedthis niglit'up 'l6 the present hour, I _ l o _ I r i Nr - to"een tattsl fact which earned with it . a.h . rand of,l I ti 4, 4e- a •4sociicy el#irning to be One of civilization. ala - _: . c h . c 9 n tl i . : it e t niilifer for Kiltnn .th z lia f6 d m s te a r id y th aa a r t a :thhearde the hon. now ~ - ike e , e „ a s compare wit , Wt pr. s ; °hi m , that there Wasi'also compai.atively littl9 critu u e t . IY4eif 'l 4 , It would ha.x6 b,e,pli . a siibiciel for congratulation but I t was increased'Ontrages the opitiiittals were . diminished, t hese 'Proof that laid ai it stood was not sufficient to check 0 4 1ofi s f; r°11 0. (War, lieii.) ' He was told that at didthe late ses, L q)e . f , 1 . Killienny, there - was nobs sing case; I tli, e,?,,:oni cf the county ryas ciiitTae.e ? No: but it preir d, ;• fqtc /1 , 144. ,5 at ioriiiiidatron; tbi "want of confidence in the en- I- .tkeli P irc Of the 'lair' diia the executiqu of justice, which mu ' lik „tt,,riecess;.rY f'illie7inliired to Stiffer in silence, lest death 14, 4 ,t 9e theii:diican° ' Altar:) . Mr. S. after Speaking of the . .tit 4 ;'"itse of crime in: thi s pi ovine Of Leinster said, that such he ,-,;.•e rein. Of terror aiicrintiiiiidition that persons could not (14' ev4 iled upon to eonie - fiiii - ardeither as jurors or witnesses.. h i ', l'•)' There were cdies. of fainilies 'who dared not give evi- Vq l .?• ' 4e had 'a list f tie s ni'Who had acted as jurors and ....; ;••r iti es t s,es, and' that list ° Ca4, ° the narnes'Of fourteen persons, r, ~, been compelled to, leave their hopes, or to place them -4' .Mender constabulary protection. In the case. of the our- It t e a r i. a a' Peroll'll . arucclio yee,'so very few persons attended to ~h la.e coronet's jury that it was necessary to get policemen to ~z , 9 uP the number required. . He' was borne out in his Was hystatement of respectable magiStrates, that such ' was the state of - terioi which existed in Ireland, that the gentry were afraid of the notices served on them, dreading attacks on their houses when these notices were served, and in some cases, he understood; aims were actually kept in their houses in order Co be delivered to the Whitefeet, to gain their goodwill. (Hear.) He would now proceed to address .himself to the question as to the necessity of introducing some strong powers, beyond those given by the present law of the land, for the purpose of establishing the tranquillity of Ireland, and without entering into the particular details of the measure proposed,—which they (His Majesty's Ministers) were not called upon to do, and which they would not be able to do at such a stage of it, without entering into the minutiae of a bill thus rather un usually subjected to a discussion upon its first reading, of which discussion, however, he did not, looking at the character and the importance of the measure, complain,—without doing that, he should proceed to discuss the expediency and necessity of adopting such a measure at the present moment. The select committee of last year, in their report upon the state of Ire land, recommended undoubtedly that the Insurrection Act should be so far, put in force as to prohibit persons being out at night, and to tender it an offence to be so out, and they also recommended the establishment, to the fullest extent, of that system of domiciliary visits which it was now proposed to establish : they recommended the establishment of it, undoubt edly subject to certain checks, -and he (Mr. Stanley) was not the person to object to such checks, but he would maintain that the establishment of such a system was absolutely necessary to enforce the practice of keeping persons at home in their houses at night in the disturbed districts. But what was the tribunal before which the committee of last year proposed that those offences should be tried ? Before a tribunal consisting of the magistrates of the neighbourhood, sitting at quarter sessions, and that Court, it suggested, should be empowered to sit from time to time, by adjournment, until tranquillity had been restored. Now, if he (Mr. Stanley) knew any one tribunal more than another against which charges had been made, it was such a one. If he knew any one thing more than another that was objected to and opposed at former periods, it was the proposition to confide the administration of such a law to the local magistracy. It was not for him to repel the charges made by the hon. member for the city of London against military tribunals,—it was unnecessary for him to do so, for they had no solid foundation, and they were contradicted by the experience of all those who had known most of such tribunals. (Hear.) Such were the grounds on which this measure was brought forward by His Majesty's ministers, and he would say that this bill came particularly recommended to his mind, inasmuch as it was so pointedly and so openly such a marked deviation from the ordinary course of the law, that it would afford here after no temptation or justification in the way of a precedent to be resorted to upon another occasion. (Hear, hear.) Admitting that he should wish to see criminal offences tried before a civil judge, yet he, saw infinite danger in constitut ing the tribunal proposed to be established under this bill of barristers. However well disposed they would be to do their duty, they would be open to the suspicion of seeking to please the government in their decisions, and they would be the more especially exposed to the popular suspicion, owing to the fact that a great many of the members of the Irish bar entertained a political bias (and lie did not blame them for doing so,) op posed to that of the people at large. Ile did not mean to say that they would be at all swayed in the performance of their duty by such a bias ; he was sure that such would not be the case, but then their verdicts and their decisions, if they did not please the popular party, would be exposed to such an impu tation from the popular side. Was,it possible that the free , expression and the free discussion of opinion could exist in Ireland under the tyranny of a society, one of the many that had been founded by the hon. and learned gentleman, that altogether controlled the public voice—that put under its ban any man that dared to differ from its decisions—that, in short, endeavoured " to wield the fierce democracy" of Ireland, and that had so contrived to usurp to itself all the forms of the government that it seemed made not to perpetuate the liberty, but to perpetuate the political slavery of that country ? (Loud cheers.) The learned gentleman (the member for the city of Dublin) saw no connection between what he called by the gentle leriai of "prudial agitation" and that political agitation which he seemed to consider so salutary to the country, and in that opinion it now appeared that lie was joined by the hon. meniberl'or the city of London. He could most gladly state that that hon. - and learned gentleman (the member Mr the city of Dublin,) and those who acted with him in exciting that political agitation, were not to be accused as having directly recommended any acts of outrage any more than lie had directly recommended a run upon the Bank for gold (loud cries of " Hear;") on the contrary, let him do justice to the hon. and learned 'gentleman, and let him just read to the house the excellent advice which the hon. and learned gentleman had in one of his late letters given to the people of Ireland. In a letter recently addressed to a paper in Dublin the learned gentleman says:— Let me implore of you not td. injure commercial credit by calling fora run on the Bank for gold." Excellent advice this, but why entreat the people not to run on the Bank for gold ? *Let the house but hear the next sentence of the lion. and learned gentleman's letter—" That run will take place of itself, to:the 'last bank-note ' if the atrocious Algerine code be enacted." (Loud cries Of "Hear, hear.") That was the advice of the hon. and Aeatned gentleman. tie might by such a run of the Bank frir . gold seek to embarrass the government, and, no doubt, by. iiiihring the commercial credit of the country cause great distress; but the hon. and learned gentleman seemed to, keep altogether out of sight that the adoption of such a measure would be the ruin of hundreds of his poorer countrymen. The hon. gentleman then read a ballad that was sung about the streets of Kilkenny immediately after the affair at Carrick slugla, in which all praise was given to "glorious Dan," and which embodied several of Mr. O'C'ounell's declarations against foreign domination and Saxon rule. Ile would ask if thiS, ballad did not re-echo the deminciation of the learned gentle man againit "the Sassenah ;" (bear) and whether, whatever might he the intentions of the lion. and learned gentleman, it was not quite clear that an ignorant and deluded peasantry interpreted them as culogiums upon the outrages, they had com mitted, and as incentives to a continuance of like barbarities, to free themselves from what was called a foreign yoke. (Cheers.) After 'animadverting at considerable length, and with great severity, upon the conduct of Mr. O'Connell in addressing inflammatory letters, the right hon. gentleman concluded a , most eloquent speech by saying that he hoped he had not ex tended his remarks beyond the length which the occasion re quired. The object the government had in view in framing_ this enactment was the protection of constitutional right, of _ legal privilege, of property,—nay, of life itself, against the ef fects of a system of lawless violence and outrage. In effecting that object they would respect constitutional rights and guard their exercise; and if, in doing so, they were compelled' to sanc tion an infringement for a little time upon the law, it would be preferable to allowing all law to be abused and trampled under loot, as it must be, unless the authority of Parliament interfered to rescue Ireland from its present state of anarchy and tyranny. (Leud and long-continued rounds of cheering followed this speech.)' Mr. SHIEL next rose, but he attempted in vain to obtain a hearing. For some minutes every part of the house rung with cries ot " Ah, ah !" "Mr. O'Connell !" " Explain—explain !" The SPEAKER called " Order !" and Mr. SHIEL again tried to address the house, but again the cries of "Mr. O'Connell, explain—explain!" resounded on all sides, and it was not without considerable difficulty that Mr. §hielcould make it understood that he rose to move the adjourn ment of the debate. No sooner had the hon. and learned mem ber made this announcement, than the cry for Mr. O'Connell's explanation was again raised. . Mr. O'CONNELL seconded the motion, and expressed a hope that the house would afford him an opportunity of freeing him self from at least one impression which had been made against him. (Hear!) All he desired was fair play. He had read three reports of the speech to which the right hon. gentleman had alluded, and in only one of them was the exceedingly of fenSive passage: that had been referred to to, be found. :When he read the report, the first sensation which came over him was one of ridicule; it struck him as exceedingly ludicrous that such a thing should have been attributed to him. (Cries of "Qh, oh !" and laughter.) He was stating a fact to the house : if he had done wroug they could condemn him, but let them hear what the fact was, He meant not to mitigate one word of what he had said—he ureantnet to disguise one word that he had uttered. ' He, would begin by telling the house what he did say. ie:x6s not surprised at the mistake whiCh the reporters had en into, for . he thought that he had ,, said enough to lead ; nir into.fhe iFinitake. (Cries of Oh! and laughter.) He, pin,..g . the coercive tills in his. mind when eyeing on the sub ' jeer oniniverstinuffrage, spoke of the injustice, on constituti onal principles, of any man who was unrepresented being taxed —he said that the robbery committed by . a 6uglg. iudivi4ual could be punished by law, but that injustice was not the less so if effected by six hundred individuals. It was true that he had that house in his mind when he said that. By the six hiindred individnals he certainly meant the house. (Hear!), Then, as was natural in speaking, another idea came into his mind relative to physical force. He said that one scoundrel might be resisted by physical force, but that it was impossible. to resist 690,by the same means. ("Oh, oh !" and strong marks of disapprobation.) The house might condemn him if they pleased: In his cool moments he would have taken care not to have fallen into the mistake which, in the heat of speaking, he liadcomrnitted„ (" qh, oh !") In that house he re-asserted. both the things,which he said at the meetings. They might resist one person, they might punish one person- who kOUglit to rob them, but they could not resist and punish a legislature that robbed them. (Oh, oh !" and general marks of strong disap probation.) He did not know after the manner in which he had been received by the house, that he should express any regret for what he had said. If he felt any regret, it was for his own sake, for be would certainly be included amongst. the 60U members to whom he had alluded. (General cries of "Oh !" and laughter.) Again he said that the report was quite excusa ble. He solemnly assured the house that he had not the slightest intention to apply a derogatory phrase to the house. (The hon. and learned member sat down amidst stronger marks of disapprobation than we ever before recollect to have wit nessed in. the House of Commons.) The motion for the-adjournment of the debate was then agreed to, and the other orders of the. day having been disposed of, the house adjourned at a quarter to '2 o'clock. THURSDAY. The house met at four o'clock, pursuant to adjournment, when a committee was ballotted for on the Bath election. At half past four the gallery was opened to the public, when Mr. LITTLETON brought up the report of the committee ap pointed to arrange and classify petitions, which was ordered to be printed. Mr. FiNcn-presented petitions from Stoney-Stratford, Fe versham, and several other places, against the infringement of the sanctity of the Sabbath. Mr. GROTE presented a petition from a place in Sussex, pray ing the house to adopt measures for securing the rights of Bri tish seamen in the merchant service ; also a petition praying for an alteration in the law of arbitration; also a petition from (we understood) the Dissenters of London, and persons who en tertained religious scruples with regard. to the taking of oaths. They prayed, the hon. gent. observed, that the house would al low them to stand upon the same footing as the Quakers. He was happy to understand that the hon. member for Cambridge was about to introduce a bill to relieve persons situated similarly to the petitioners from the disabilities under which they la boured. When he did so, he (Mr. Grote) could assure him the bill should have his cordial support. He also presented a peti tion flora 490 of the electors and inhabitants of Chatham, com plaining of the exercise of undue influence and intimidation du ring the late election for that town; and a petition from a hull - red in Carmarthenshire, signed by 200 persons, likewise com plaining of influence and intimidation at the last election; and another from an individual residing in Regent's-park, praying for an alteration in the law of patents. Mr. HARDY presented a petition, signed by . a considerable number of master-manufacturers of Bradford, in favour of the measure in contemplation for limiting the hours of labour in factories. Mr. COBBETT said, it was remarkable that on the occasion of presenting such petitions as the present, no person attempted to assign the real cause of the evil of which they complained. When even the legislature proceeded to make laws between master and servant, the evil which called for the interference should be clearly defined. It must, at first sight, appear that this was a matierwhich might safely be left to be settled between the master and the parents of the children. The children were under the control of their parents, and the house was called upon to. pass a law, not to prevent the masters from doing what was wrong, but to compel parents to desist from doing what was wrong. To do so would be to declare to the whole world that English parents were so cruel and unnatural that it was found necessary to pass an act to protect their children from the effects of their anxiety to obtain their earnings. Some persons said that it was in the power of the masters to put an end to the evil, but that was not the case. What, then, was the cause—how happened it that the country, which was called the most humane in the world, should produce parents so cruel that the legislature was compelled to pass laws to prevent them from rendering their children miser- able to the end of their lives? He truste.d that the house would never consent to the passing of a law such as that now prayed for (although he wished it to pass) until they had entered into a solemn inquiry into the cause which induced parents to disregard the feelings natural to the human breast, and to drive their chil dren into misery and wretchedness. Let the house always keep in view that this law, was required not to restrain the masters, but parents from being cruel to their own children, and that they were driven to be thus cruel by the heavy burden of taxes which pressed upon them, ,of which the rich bore hardly any share. Mr. METHUEN (as we understood) said, that if he were not bound to give. every member of that house credit for acting from just and pure motives, he should really be inclined to believe that the only object which the hon. member for Oldham had in view was tfs, excite the poor against the rich, and create animosity be tween, the different classes of society. (Hear.) The language whiclahe hon. member had just addressed to the houso was not then for the first time heard. It was certainly no novelty. It was such language as had been vomited forth in political-regis ters and "twopenny trash." Night after night, upon question after question, and sometimes when there was no question at all before the house, the hon. member for Oldham endeavoured to prove that it was the object of the rich to grind the poor to the earth, If his'argument meant anything, it meant that perhaps the hqn. member would admit it. The petition was ordered to lie on the table. Mr, SHELL said that the Secretary for Ireland had closed the debate of last night with a speech which, even from a dissent ing audience, would have won high praise, but whieh, recordedby the sympathies (he should be forgiven for saying the British sympathies) of the assembly, was naturally hailed with vehe ment plaudits. Although an intecval had elapsed sufficient to, allow their minds to cool, he would not disguise his apprehen sions that there existed a predisposition unfavourable to the cause, which he had risen to plead. The majority of Englishmen were, by their natural consciousness of superior dominion, inclined to regard Ireland with an imperiousness which was analogous to the feelings of the great republicans of antiquity, who were as careless of the liberties of their dependents as they, wereijealous of their own. The bill was divisible into two parts, for although it gathered a number of.penalties together, and it was a sheaf of rods, yet it was easy to reduce them to a separate classification. The statute was directed against political socie ties and agrarian ruffianism. It embraced the insurrection act, and the proclamation act, with various additions from other, penal statutes, with other original en.actutettts,bnt it might be considered under the two. heads of political and agrarian. Why were statutes hitherto separately 'passed, and having no affinity, now eouthiued together. Even now it, is announced that a separate act is intended for, the change of venue. Why is not this measure associated vith the present, or else why is the present made to comprehend matters which are wholly distinct? But let us take this act tip in its several parts. The former proclamation act gave the )Lord Lieutenant power to, dissolve certain assemblies; so does this ; but if the Lord-Lieu tenant thinks proper' to proclaim the city of Dublin, which he is empowered to do, no meeting whatever can take place—the. right of petition is at an end—the habeas. corpus is suspended— * liberty of the press is gone—any . obnoxious speaker or, writer may be incarcerated, without injunction and without . trial, and. may offences committed before the proclamation, (for the act has the peculiar merit of being retrospective) are: to be Cognizable.in the city of Dublin by a court-martial sub sequently established. (Hear, hear.). Are the English mem bers aware Of this,—are the men who shouted with laughter, in testimony to a vile ballad. readlost night by the Irish secretary in imposing despotism on Ireland, aware of what this act contains. The gevernmeut should not complain of any strong phrases ap plied to this enactment, for they themselves Confessed that it was an outrage on the constitution, and, indeed, the secretary for Ireland had insisted that one. of the. chief perfections of the bill was, that it was so peeuliarly detestable that it never could be selected as a model, and what the whigs did iu 18.33 the to-, ries would be ashamed to imitate for a century to come. But, putting all mockery aside, and returning in sober sadness to the bill, see what it provides., Not contented with establishing courts-martial amidst the scenes of outrage and of horror, they erect {,hem in the city of Dublin, where they have juries at their command, and not very stubborn judges; and where a convic tion is as easy as au accusation. Are cities to be included? To be sure they are, in order to strangle complaint and tread every spark of liberty out. Instead of taking this course, you permit discontent to ripen into what you consider excess, and you then, avail }ourseyes of the fragment s o f ora t or y w hi c h you last night produced, and . a ballad, written, perh a ps, i n a police-barrack, in order to degrade us into slaves, and, by playing the part of tyrants, equally to degrade youiselves. Here, then, in the first section of your act of parliament your design is manifest; it is not to crush insubordination, and check the barbarities perpetrated in the south, it is to extin guiSh all the rights of British citizenship in the metropolis 'that vou demand this frightful authority to lie put into yoni hands. Let any. man who thinks this exaggeration not con tent himself with saying so, but examine the statute. Here it is; the proclamation goes forth, it appears on the castle. gates,; that instantdiscussion, personal freedom, trial by pry, liberty of the press, all vanish in a moment. Does the - exigency of case ,call for r 04 1 3. Is it beca,,,u,,le_ his friend Mr. Stecle had addressed the peasantry in strong language, that every man's freedom in the city.of Dublin was M . be at the diseretion.of the Irish Secretary ? Mr. Steele had. already given the govern ment some evidence that he did not shrink from responsibility. He, had sent a speech on a former occasion to.the Attorney- General with his compliments. lie was a man, without. fear. Did the Attorney-General prosecute that speech.? No; be- . causeit was deemed far more advisable. to wait for.an opportu nity to establish a despotism, and: to. resort to the harangues , of a generons and chivalrous.man: as a preteuce.fOr-this infliction. A c,oninuttee. is namfd,, by_ Sir. IL Parnell! in the midst of an emergency in May last, to consider the state.of. Ireland; the . secretary declareath#censinittee to be mostimportant, his name is the secend, enthe fit, the commander of- the forces is ex amined, and the hon. gentleman does not, condescend, or is too much pressed by occupation rather, to attend. (Loud cheers.) This is a precious mode of managing Irish business, - And what does he tell the house ? Having neglected to attend himself on the inquiry, he tellS the house not to inspire, But the Chan cellor of the Exchequer says neither juries will do their duty,nor - witnesses attend. The onus of proof, like the smoke signal men tioned,in the act, lies on him. by-the-by, that is a curious clause. It was recommended in another place, by a lay lord, one of those friends who would embrace.the ministers so close as to hug them' to death. (Loud cheers.) He recommended a clause making - the peasant prove that the smoke of his cabinwas not a telegraph of insurrection. It is far more equitable to put on the Chancel lor of the Exchequer the burden of proof as to juries. What his first admission?—that no single juror has been injured. (Loud cries of " Hear.") No, not one. His next statement is, that every jury but. one aid its duty. Why, is-this a reason for abolishing all juries? But the. Carrickshaugh jury did perform its duty. Who can venture, to say it 'did not who was not pre sent ? Who can judge of awituess withoht seeing him undergo the scrutiny of cross-examination ? A look, a quiver, a faltering of the utterance, may decide ajury;. the glance of an eye may save a human being, But l e t us come to the statute. What powers does it give; and to what tribunal - ' It compresses the Whiteboy acts, and the Ist and 2d of William IV., and the 50th of George 111., and the 27th of George 111., together; in one word, it transfers al mos t th e ent i re crim i nal codefroM a jun.— ,to whom ? To a judge ? No ; the ermine might be spotted -- scarlet cannot. To barristers? No; their eyes are fixed one a golden perspective, and the castle is at the end of every vista. (Cheers.) No, but to a set of inen who are aliiive-aTinfluenee to whom the word "promotion" i s un i nte lli g ibl e; enlightened,; impartial, calm in decision, cautious m inquiry ; who have con tracted, of course, no habits of rigour fromthe guardhouse, and by whom justice and mercy will be fortunately tempered. We shall have no magistrates, no ;furors, no. judges,, mo.barristers. We shall have—what? Captains, forsooth. (Cheers.) The wig, the gown, the hand, must give way to the sash, the sword, the epatuet, and then all the evils of the administratiohof Irish jukice' will be at an eedl, for ever. (Loud cheers.)'— ' The Chancellor of the Exchequer declarea that he does not mean to apply the act to the tithes. hie does not mean it? Look at the act. - The Irish Seeretery contradicts the Chancel lor of the Exchequer, and says that off.4nces connected with tithes shall be punished by the court-ma-rtial. (Hear. hear.) The Irish Secretary appealed, to the 'house for confidence, founded on the past lives of the ministry. His potiticatlife has been brief. He started the champion of the church, is. stilllits advocate, took office under Mr. Canning, and accomplished great things in carrying reform. There are others whose past lives do indeed stand in a melancholy contrast with their pre sent opinions. How. will they ever be able again to raise their voices against coercion in this. country ? When the wheel of official fortune, which is subject to such rotations, shall have gone round, and these who are now on its - giddy top shall . iis cupy a different position,—when these who now occupy the Treasury bench with so much dignity shall return to. the bench which they once filled with so much honour, if it shall. be deemed necessary, in the midst of any disturbances which May arise even in this prosperous island, to have recourse to niea sures in abridgement of genuine freedom, what can they say ? Should they venture to expostulate, may not the new minister, with that sarcastic gentleness in which he so, accomplished. an adept, open this statute, and wills an impressive gravity read the court-martial clause ? (Loud cheers.) And may not others, wi'di less effect but greater vehemence exclaim, "Hew can you presume to stand upas the advocate of the people here? Did you not abandon all your former opinions ? you not fling your recorded protests to the winds ? Did you not aban don the principles on which your entire political conduct was so long founded? Did you not suppress discussioh, beat liberty to the earth, suspend the Habeas. Cerphs act, destroy, the I:ste dom of the press in Ireland?,overthrow all justice, hurl down the ordinary tribunals, and raison. their ruins the legislation of the Horse-guards and the judicathse. of the camp ? (Loud. cheers.) Forbear! while there is time, forbear! With the carne stab with which you strike at our libel ties to the core you will commit suicide upon your own. (Continued cheers.) Mr. Al &CAUL AY confessed that the apprehensions entertained by the hon. and learned gentleman who had just sat down did nor appear to him to be in auv degree well-grounded; nor (lift lie think that the speech of that lion. and learned gentleman, however much it had been cheered a t th a t s id e o f the house, would at all weaken the lasting impression. made. by the a•-in rable address delivered by his right hon. friend (Mr. Stanley) yesterday evening. (Hear, hear.) That speech had produced. an impression which he was convinced would not easily be re moved from the minds of these who heard it. (Hear, hear.) For his own part, he had never risen in that house under more painfld feelings than those which now oppressed him. He had never thought that it would have become necessary for him to stand up and defend the suspension of the Habeas 'Corpus act and the suspension of trial by jury. (Hear, hear.) 'they wer e those great bulwarks of freedom for which our ancestors had bra,velyjand successfully struggled,—to preserve which dynasties had been changed,—for which whole armies of martyrs bad bled;—those sacred, bulwarks, he admitted, ought to be ap proached with awe, and never touched or disturbed but in case of the greatest necessity; but, that necessity: nce made out, he would not stop to inquire how fir or how short he was to go la - fond them. When once, therefore, ne had made up his menu that,:ssaaspension of the abeas Corpus. and of the trial by jury had beconse"necessary, it was to him of little importance to go into dismission - as to its details, and in that feeling he would net inquire. which Would be the best substitute for the trial by jury, —the trial by one judge, or three barristers, or by courts-mar tial,—for though he was not without an opinion as to which was the best, he would not stop to choose between them, but as be had mentioned them, he must say that, in his opini o n, a ny L i' them would- be preferable to that substitute suggested by the hon. and learned gentleman who had just addressed the house. That hon. and learned gentleman seemed to think that thetrials under the bill before them ought to be by a jury, but a jury chosen from the aristocracy. Now, it seemedto be generahy admitted, at least he had not yet heard any hon. member who controverted the opinion, that the very worst hands to which the administra tion of strong measures like the present could be confided were the local gentry . Or magistracy. Yet, to something like this, t o a sort of special jury of the aristocracy, would the hon. and learned member confide the administration of these strong mea sures. He would have a jury of the Protestant gentry to try the Catholic peasantry ; could anything. be. less likely to create irritation, when the passions and the prejudices and supersti tions of the great mass of the people. would he olipesed to it. Mr..T. ROMILLY said there was no man more ready than lie was to admit that some of the laws which ministers had in contemplation would do much good to the people of Ireland; but there were some evils by which they were oppressed that would not, he was on ' vinced, be touched by this measure. (Hear, hear.) In his opinion, the state of Ireland was different from that conteniplated the.frant , ers of this bill, and, before they passed it, they ought to examine earg_ fully whether it was a measure worthy . bf being entertained. This was the more imperative on them, knowing, as they did, the immense benefit which was derived from laws rightly defined and properly ad ministered. It could not be doubted that this measure it 'Was iii tended to interfere most extensively with thelaw as it at present stood. Now, he had no' objection whatever that the power of the law should; be increased, for the more effectual. soppression. of murder, house breaking' burning, and other atrneious crimes ; and if he were con vinced that this bill would.he effectual for that purpose, he, fat should, not ofiVr any oppoSition t o it: B u t he could not consider it in. . that light ;• because, SQ far from possessing a principle of diserifnina lion, it did by some of- its provisions, involve in a very general.pr().- seription persons both innocent and guilty. (Rear, hear.) Ile item= alluded to the system of domicilary vi: it.;, at all times and at all hours, which the bill authorised.. Such a provocation he co;n•eived to been,- neoessary ; 'nay, more, it seemed: him to be mischievous. The or derly as well as.the disorderly portions of the community were alike. open to the operations of this cause ; and it might he made us 'e• of to serve the endS of pen , : jealousy or revenge. With respect to the, - proposition of the righilion. member for Lambeth, laeutaii- notet4l inclined to support it. lie saw no benefit that could be derived from postponing the bill for a• fortnight, If it were really called for, let - evidence he adduced•to prove that it was, and.then let itbe passechat once ; but until ample evidence were adduced, he never could agree .to it. If the objet of, the right lion. member were to defeat the hot altogether, then the best way to. meet. that object wouldbe, 'to move that the second reading be postponed to this day six months. That would be a. much better and plainer mode of proceeding than calling for the delay of- a fortnight. lie meant to make no observations gift the. distinctness which. had. be, drawn between praalial, and nolititial dlistlixirai;u des •. he would not enter. into a discussion with refeience t t their connexion • butlieJalalithe allowed to offer a passing obseiii tion the attacks Whin That been made onithe hon, and learned member forDuhlin,to whom until within the last half-hour he had been' utterly unkaown--even, he believed hy,sight. Whatever the conduct of that hou. and learned g.4lntlexuan might be, it ought not to' infin .ence the tone of this disciocsion. (Hear, hear.) Tint great queitit'll ought not to be discu4sed on a party, or private feeling. (Hear, hear.). No ; it. should, he distu.sscd as a measure affecting the lives and liber. of; one:41411 entire conommits . , of this gin mire, akar, hear.) Such a question passion ; it should, be viewed calmly ands estesiderately. (Bear, hear,s • They ought to reflect upon many peit.M.-Vvlictiter, for instance, a fegg extes, sive measure might net dO,—it-liether they were justified-in carrying. the whole of these coereive.meattures once?. The real object and . the end and aim of: all their.eem , uitations on this subject ought tote, 'not to enforce the law by harshness-and-severity, by-the introduction of courts-martial, or by 'other arbitrary prneeetlings, but to induce the p9ople to love the legislature and th e government, to enthrone .1;0h' in the hearts of the cononunity by acts. of kindness end benefi, 6erce. (Hear, hear.) • lord MAHON Said that, connected- as be.was by property with •Ire-- land, he hoped the horse would 7 allow- him to state his sentiments on the question then before them. The.questionmas, whether he.shOuld support 'a meaimre brought forward by ministers, in whom he co.- fessed that-he d:tinot place eonfidenee, or, on the otherhand, Conetnded on page 237..