The Sun. — London, England, 1817-02-26 00:00:00

wanted in'etnplay Should he laid lerS. Therefore, hu we ver triflimg e that could arise from the retitle errs, it would be ett4reeahlY ac - Were the Sinecure Offices. which e away. He NITS far front wishing respectable intik iduals , Who cons- of Admiralty of any undue in laid he enter into _tiny very long dare ot theii office. It n'tts not Previous to the reign ot had neither arsenals nor clock s of war, ships were hired of the the succe,sses of this Sovereign nutittrt of Admiralty and Navy ° minis-sinners were appointed to operations connected with the a code of regulations was adopted 11l the time of Charles I. During s of that reign, an alteration was of Committees were appointed by I revise the regulations, In 1645, ere inj,frtinted, consisting of three these Lords icceiveil 3i. a day ees•--(Laughter )—At the period Ise Navy was in comparative insig- Ilu riog his sway, it wag increased to anti regular duck-yard s were esta - Hie r the succession of his son, it suf atoilechy. The Hon. Baronet Conti he Progress of the Brit ish navy from 13 to the year 1775, under Lord S. , ► time the Admiralty Board consist - is, and eince that time they hail been He not mean to say that, at e/ ' th eir duties might not have been mire this number ; but if these duties there was no reason for e Humber. While he should guard 4140 04 Of persons, it would be ne ar how the &aid \vas appointed. , Sec retary l'epy s d escri b ed the Lards lily, of that tints," as being persons ii, necessary to select for their, gleat Rod unparalleled talents ito(I Per' (Lan:Ater )—Perliapsit might not be I ll 'at the Loris of the present day did ''lisp to tile chi rat ter of St cret.ary Pe 16'-tart: e -ominis•iou appointed to en- State of the Navy, concluded their e reeolutnruding, as essential to the moiy, that it should be placed under tbiutial knowledge. and uninterrupted t he fittest to he loom' lor the various int ditties they had to perform. II"' i"'rs Goveruntent had attended to In " fi ltinti of the Committee, he th Muse to determine, when it i ) t "' they had appoint e d a C orne t of 1 Loril o f the Ailiniralty.—(Laug caeP ev ents, six ',ands were not, nece,sary and lie. should produce very great 1 4 ,' Itl '"vity in support of his seginnent. 1 ,i () the R m ep ort o f the Committee of C le Year 1 797, a n d lie regretted that tett more the cotton) of the !loose to 4 1 ' t ' e c 't 1 udvice ; f or if the recominetull sth"tnotiitee had been Attended to,ot .I,4ve idler) to make his preset" ,„',1,1e Committee h a d st ate d, Alai they ". 1 0 1 / 1 .1 "of the AdMiralty to be six n ,i )l i ''es the First Lord, and tlionglt ° i c y any diiointition of the number in Ile ti t `Y recommended to the considera -101,145e Witotlier there mirht be,,af p 0 51414 11 it) tittle of peace, as well as " ev, I • b Department,-- 'ldat , °yet in e 12(;Pitntt WAS Wade, wt; had in coitilnis' 11 4 b"Sti Ss stud 140,000 seamen. We b ' t e than 200 vessels of every tg,ooo seamen. Could . . ther o e ,. , L a i ""t; to Justify the continuation Ie I'lley w ere L ist y ear called useless Ihept itittiq say ti lvy Were, hi s pinion, 4elt'S% sinecure of fi ces. li e was at I w t 'nit grou n d his motion wO . l 1 1 tact ' e .-itlble I ord bad thrown out hints 1, 0 o "14 4 , 1 () ,Per to attempt innovations, as 4, 0,,„ 1 - l int from wiletice did this charge 4 4 , 4 ? It was very inappropriate, :e sante 10 41 er was coming one Of th at w as ever at tell pt ed il3orttloil C 1 1. 1111)011 the great bulwark of 0111. 4 11 1 4 it t . l ''otigitt it proved, that the btisi tu 1) 7 . : ill WAS Sc) Moth t hat ;"'e „, 1 14431 "IY reduced, andilie called on 'Phu the question nu the 'N w i ; ) ". The lioursurahle Baronet then principle Gil I"'lYing the Adress. li,aroft'etwuß4utt began by complimenting the wh . i " tl the 'impartial and temperate le " he had delivered his sentiments t 11,„,:)". Ile i)we t l it as apoint of candour 13 44114.. 4rtlllet decytre that it was in his ae 411) 1144 4'141)411 ' a lit ‘ test ' iott of this nature; 1111:"Ight it wood t (.1e regular cd't„ 4l. h ave be en m Ott wittittltal►l'.lo °net to hays enileavotired . y had bee n the intentions of his tit 61. AlliilMetS I) t t he i i , ll " t h e subject ,or to have ► orta,,eotiet, Ascertained what Coarse WM" b Y the Committee on Itetrench le"r lteforms had always ; tt iv til2l i".COMICX1011 with a comprelien , e t ier and not as they were now, Ftlst,ri eto reillictiott, •a• numbe r of insulated n0v474)004 v474)004 %%idiom regard to their relit dql t.; . hst l i i k tl other branches of the public 1 4 . Pitt b ot h made mo d,,c i! e tt . ti t► the e " e(ou - test e ttn p r eh t,tisiv' )1 " they always f oun d e d t h em , l tut : Cti ected, and extcn ,,:lit it etests of the country. [IC 1 114 t the offices of this country the rine% it)tint le •td . o y. i t • tt, every office ista,ss It could -he proved, that the le ~t11.41 lahoor "4 ' 4 14 be performed by a cant •1•• 41111 1), 441 i t totiti (m 1114, , .then th e whole of al ' be tide emllltry most he changed, ~..„n0t h e 1, .6°,.'11t1 that our public offices (Lai l uY such cl Ittr,N__, Persons as uow held us i t t , of a , wouhl drive out of office 'our wi l4 y, 8 'I tie • 4 lett t iff re the hest pledges to i ts to , . ew e ,. • lees were not to be tried! by a 4.1 k, ue • ark w as (it ilte .ntl et ,, t. applied to )tankers' j, 440ai 1mi„ 0; ,.. le uttiouta Of (Ice- say. 'l;v 4t v.l. o r 4 0r ,', 411, it would not ex ifti ttl , 'odd b e , rind ti ilit(4 4of tine itiliwa the covet of such say 141, etu he el the character of the ht , 10, lteu td their nut ies tall 41"1*.--(l4,tu.lts Noble Lord then proccedel to sbnw that tile du tics of the Lords of the Admiralty n ere by no means diminished to the extent imagined by the Hon. Baronet, as it was neeessat y that there should always be a Board in London, - while three of the Lords were traversing the country to inspect the docks and arsenals, and inquire personally in to whatever related to the Navy. It was always considt:red a wise principle to make the balance of the-oumber of Lords be rather in favour of the civil authorities than the professional men. Such situations were calculated to quitlify young men at the outset of life, by enabling. them to find a mo tive for studying the Constitution of their country. From such situations. had arisen talents which had forced themselves to the very summit of audio , rity ; and even Mr. Fox. did not consider himself I legraded by accepting one of these very offices that were now derided. Sir Robert Walpole, and others of the most valuable servants of the public, had been brought into notice by such appointments, the abolition' of • which would prove a serious in jury to the education of public officers. The Noble Lord referred to the time of Lord Spencer's Ad ministration, in proof that no reduction was loomd necessary, nor was any in contemplation if the peace of Amiens had. lasted. As to the question of economy, lie pledged himself to meet that question in every shape in which it could be beneficial to the public ; but he must protest against imputing any unfair motives to Ministers for thrill arrangements in the establishments tho'- ing the last Session. As far as the army was con cerned, it had not undergone any reduction front that. was proposed by Government, who had the second estimation in contemplation, as soon as it was imagined that anv further reduc tion could be made. If the House looked at the scale . of the public expenditure, it would be found that Ministers had reduced it 700,0001. under the lowest estimate of an Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Tierney). This was an earnest which they had given to the House of their disposition to economy. lie appealed to the Honourable Gentkitten- on the other side of the HOuse, who were Members of the Finance "Core mittee, whether they had discovered any symp tom in the Government to encourage a waste of pain , money. He contended that the Crow) should not be deprived of the means of rewarding services. It had .been propo-ed in the Committee, and the principle had been adopted, that nil the offices hitherto considered the light of sinecures, should cease with the lives of their holders. There was no office that had not undergone a revision except one, and that had been given up to the public by the magnanimity of Ilse noble individual who held it. He trusted that the House would not cripple the operations of the Admiralty, which would be the case it it were prevented from de taching a Board to the out ports, whilst another Board should remelts in town. If the Honourable Baronet had shown that the influence of the Crown had increased during the. latter years in a degree dangerous to the libertiesitf the conntry—(flear!) he would own that it was a ground for reducing certain offices; but then the only question would be to make a choice of offices. He contended, that at no period of the English history had fesier offices been holden by persons sitting in that House. At the close of the,American war, the number of the Members of Pathan - sent holding offices under the Crown was doable its present amount, though 106 Irish Members had since been, added to this liouie, only iix of whom bore an official chortle: ter. if the 1-louse looked at the system of the army and navy, and" contrasted it with that of another period, when politics were Made the chief source of advancement, the difference would be perceived. He put it to the fair feeliugs„of the Honourable Gentlemen opposite to illy, whether at the Horse Gnards or the Admiralty, promotion Was given on acc ount of political principles.--(Hear, bear, hear !)--- : The patronage granted was liberal, and directed to naval and military merit alone. The tact waQ, that the influence of the Crown had materially - decreased.—Under these circumstances lie did not see that sufficient grounds had been shown to drive from the House the few indivi duals in possession of offices, and-should move the previous question. Lord ALT/1014PB contended that the able, senti ments of the Hon.• Baronet hail not been properly answered by the Noble Lord. What had been said with respect of having an Admiralty Board at the out-ports, and one in town, might be ne cessary its time of war,' bin not at a period of peace. As to sinecures, the general opinion, in which he conetnred, was that . public services would be better rewarded by pensions than by the grant of such sit nations. • The •.Noble • Lord had omitted a most material item of the influence of the Crown—that which - it. derived Irons the immense increase of the revenue, and the number of officers employed in its collection. Mr. Law considered the question, not on its abstract merits, 'but as the groundwork of a sys tem of reductions.: The Home_ should recollect when it should vote, that it was called upon, to effect the destruction of t wo offices alone, hut of every office its process of time,' Althen the body Of the place was attacked, he would not give up a single out work.--,(l.lear, hearl)Let not his -Majesty's Ministers imitate the supineness of. the Roman Emperors, who, whets, they lost a province, consoled themselves .with the ides that they could do without its produce . . Let them not say they could-do without two Louis of the Admiralty; for when they abandoned a single office, they would abandon the principle on which their whole em pire rested.—(Hettr, hear!)--They had arrived at the point where they could not retreat, where thCy !mist take their stand and' fight' manfully. As for hinssell be should never consent to strike out of the hands of the Crown the only remaining weapon with Which it could defend itself.---(ileer, hearty Mr. WARRE thought that although Ministers bad gained an ally its en Hon. Gentlemen, with time benefit of his vote, they we re not much pleased -with his fair avowal of the military, position which they intended to assume. The Noble Lord cantptained that the m otion atta d k ad inc one o Ica • alone• But if his Hon. Frien had clud Treater number, would lie not have been told, that if he wished the question. to be entertained, be must disentangle it ? Out of the six Lords of the Admiralty, . one Land and three Sea Lords were really efficient - men, - but it had not eyeu.been remitted to he denier, that the wiser two were complete sinecures. The Noble Lord had adopted a course which was the inure unexpected, as it had always failed him, one of recrimination. He cared. not for what had taken place under former admi-. nistrations ; if they had doue wrong, it became' the present to do right. Mr. T. W. WanD was of opinion that the lion. Gentlemen opposite wished to go too far. They not only attempted to take off the • useless em broidery, but to strip off even decent covering. The motion ought to have been proposed in it more connected forme. especially as a Committee b a d heeo a ppointed to consider what. offices might he reduced or retained. But they were not sa tisfied with that Committee. The names did not please them. They wished it to have been coas t prised at those pure and disinterested mn e whal for the present were uotionnecLed with - office ; but it was impossible for any Committee to keep paCe with such 'proceedings in the House, for it might happen.t that the House might have voteci away the very office 'Which the Com mittee' had directed should . be retained. He Oleo defended those offices, the destruction of Which Would limit the number of competitor; lor the public service, and would lower the character of that service, and make it fill into the battik of the very worst of till oligarchies,.the oligarchy of wealth. If Ministers - considered - their own inte rests and not the real good of the'country, they would do better for themselves to sacrifice those offices; for they would acquire more in popultoity tha'n'they lose in official 'friends, whilst their successors would have to coutend with the consequences of the abolition. Mr. BANKS& contended that an ambulatory Board of Admiralty was not necessary in time of peace. Mr. Husteosole, argued that the proceedings of the Committee should not be the same as those of Parliament. The recommendation to abolish "should conie from the fOemer, and the execution of the measure from the latter. If the offices pointed not in the Motion were destroyed, the Board of Admiralty would be left in a crippled state, and incapable of any vigorous exertion. Mr. CnoKatd stated that beliad examined with all care the Naval Estimates since 165 ; and that, with the exception of the. year 1691, in which, probably, on account of death, the num• ber of the ,Lords had been reduced to six ; the first article of those estimates had regularly been seven Lords of the Admiralty at 10001. a-year each. So that the Office now intuited out for abolition, was one voted by'our ancestors for 132 years without either intermission or any alteration in number or salary. Sir C. Pout contended that the Board: of Ad miralty,Ought to consist of naval persons, and that the salary of its members had at times varied from 10001. to 770/. a-year. Since Mr. Burchell's time iu 1689 to the present there had been do per son appointed to be Chief Secretary who had no knowledge of the neighbouring seas. Mr. CANNING considered the question as the begimiing of a series of attack on political office.r— (Hear, hear!)--By the recommendation from.the Throne, the attention of the House had been, pointed more particularly to the offices' designated under tba name gaff Sioecureb. thought 'not pre cluded from embracing others. Ministers had consequently considered that class of offices in which the public called most earnestly liar some reduction, and the practical fruits of their inqui ries" been neither small nor slow in'their growth. The Coimnittee bad proposed the reduction of all those Offices which hail long stood in the public view as blots and stains on the system.—(Hear, hear I)—He had twice voted, in that House to expedite a Bill, carrying among its other contents the Abolition of all Sinecure Offi.es:— To the contents of such a Bill, he was ready, as well a s his Colleagues, to give every support, and so to shape the measure as to insure its suc cess.—(hear, hear !)—But he had too much ex perience to suppose. that such a concession would satisfy those who clamoured to excite discontents throughout the country. And. against whom were thote.,elamours directed ? ,agitinst the /loose of Commons. It might be thought that the Crown recommended the abolition of Sinecures ; that the Lords had passed Resolutions for that purpose ; and that the House of Commons had been slow in adopting or executiag them. The language of flattery was addressed to the former, and nothing but obloquy to those very Commons who had twice abolished Sinecure Offices as far as k was ,possible for them to do. and whose progress had been arrested by the Mouse of Peers itself. But Ire knew that the object of those men Was to vilify the House of Common's ; because, that House once destroyed, the road was open to the ruin which they meditated. (Hear, bear !) %Viten once a Committee had been appointed, it could not be wise to take a portion of its work out of its hands. , The House, he thought, was the place where a general principle - ought to be laid down, • and the Committee that-where the details might be discussed. He then teplied to the objection urged againsttte employment of landsmen in the Board of Admiralty. The present -men were disapproved of, because they were not phocre wain :v. preserved in the Cabinet of au lion. Baronet opposite—(Laughter, and . cries at hear, hear 1) —or as Trincalu told Coliban, because " they were not real sea-monsters"—(Laughter)-- the monsters which they wanted—(Hear, hear Every motive of personal ease, every wish of. ob taining public confidence, arid getting their adver saries into their own trap, would have induced Ministers to give those offices up, had they not been convinced that they were not too many to carry on the fair and active business of Parliament within the walls of that House. .As to the influence of the Crown which was so ranch talked of, he denied that it had increased, of late years; in any degree pro. portioned to the relative increase of the - Influence of public opinion. To prove this, he entered somewhat at large into the different ways in which the influence of public opinion hail grown up so as to be a most powerful counterpoise to the in fluence of the Crown; and, amongst others, men tioned the effect produced by the publication at the debates in that liouse• - ---a power which in fluenced every man who spoke in it, and under the influence of Which he then spoke ; because he knew " that, to-morrow,what he said this night would be submitted to a thousand eyes, and criticised. by a _Monson- tongues, and that even any verb:A inac curacy into n hick he might fAll would not pass un noticed. But even in point of the number of the Servants of the Crown who had seats in that House, what a change bad taken place within the last half century 1 During-the Whig. Administration of Sir Robert Walpole, there were upwards ot a hun dred Menthe:3.of that House who held offices t!t the pleasure of the Crown, where a s 'n o w; there. were only forty-nine'.—(Hcar, hear !)—He con cluded an eloquent and impressive speech by pluring the House not to yield to the alarms which were end en vone...d to be excited front the conduct and threats of demagogues, vc_to were despised by all sides of the lionse ; but to disappoint the hopes of those who would persuade them on false i grounds -to - support the motion of the Hon. Baru iiet,..—(Lnud cheering.) Mr. BROUGHAM Whiled to bring back the House to. the question before itr . „ from the considerottoa tit which the light Hon: Gentleman who spoke last.seeined to have on purpose withdrawn it. That Right HOLl.(ientleman had said much abut what was done by the Committeel,appointed. to inquire what offices could be dii , peusell with.— Now, on this very ground, be was withug to meet the Right Hon. Gentleman. What hart t hut COlll - Not whrit the Right Htiit.Gent. ltbtl rather inaccurately said, abolished ten places, but merely taken a leaf from the bookof the Rig t Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Binkes), aud come to the resolution ot recommending 'to the House, at the expiraiiim of a certain- period, LO ahottsh certion places. But the great question before the Himse was, whether they were to agree to keep up these MA places, which, it bad heen admitted- on all sides ot the House, were useless. One of those efficient situations was occupied by a Noble Lord, Who, at the same time, was performing the ditties of an,Officer of Liavally at Catubray. If this was one of those otlices which was fitted fur training; up to habits of business, those young men of high families or high taleuts who wire to bealestitted to fill high offices in the State, surely there shotad.be so►ne Intstness to_ transact. Upon the wholt; ire could not hut treat the speech of the (tight Hon. Gent. as an at tempt - to put down by a clamour, that Popular in the llon,e, all attempts at economy and retrenchment. 'I hose dem►►gogues, Who by ►►ne voice in this House, were disavowed, would not thank the House for such a retrenchment ; they would call it paltry—a pretence, and done' merely to put off the question of Reform. If this argu ment was to be alloived it would be equal to saying to those who had fronted the report which recom mend the abolition of offices, tht►t they had (ranted it merely to countenance the clamour out of doors, and to :pierce. the Constitution through its side. As to what had been said by the Right Hon. Gentleman, of the relative diminution of the influence of the Crown by the influeece of public opinion, there was one , very short answer to it ; that when there were 100 plucemen in that House, they liad only the patronage arising from the management of a revenue of abort twenty millions a year, whereas now, when there were only 50, there was that arising from a revenue of. 60 or 70 millions a year. He begged Members to recollect, that the vote of this night would not be final and irrevocable : but that; if the motion was agreed' to, and the mathine of the State was found to sutler from it, it might easily be me.. trieved. He denied. that there was any t-Iting,ap plicable in the sort of to quoque argument of ask• ing of those on his side of the , House What they had done when in office, because then the ettun try was at war and, besides,. such at guments were nothing to the people whose interests ;hey were there to consult. The House' then divided= For the Motion Fur the previous Question... 908 .11:2 Majority bG Adjourned at ilalf-past One this Morning. EAST INDrA HOUSE, Yesterday a General Court of Proprietors was held at the East India House, for the purpose of continuing the adjourned debate on Mr. Jackson's IllOtioll. Mr. Hums addressed the Court in a long speech, in which he pointed nut various defects of the: College in Ilertfordshire, and'contended for the necessity otinquiring into the manna' . in which it was at present conducted. Mr. FRESHFIk:i.D observed, the College now ap peared to be attacked for no other purpoSe. than to support the Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward the motion. It was said that inquiry was all that was wanted ; but lie would say, that this inquiry was nothing but accusation. Mr. LowNnas contended, that a string of facts had been brought forward, which it was imposw to controvert. After much desultory conversation, the debate , was again adjourned to Tuesday next. SUPERIOR MEDICAL. ADVICE.*—Drs. COPPER, Musatoa, and Co. of Chad Ate-house, opposite the Rev. Rowland Hill's Chapel, have established another Medical Board in Woodstock 7 strcer, Ox ford•street, adjoining New Bond,street , where ot Physician :old Surgeon, Alernliers of the Royal College of London, of thirty years experience. reside. That thousands have been restored to health by their united talents, without confine• merit, is indisputable, after hospitals had failed. Eruptions on the head, face, and body, ulcerated throat, swellings in the neck, nodes un Jim -shill bones, cancers, strictures, fistulas, pains in the head and limbs, and nervous debility, are diseases which appear years after, a nd often destroy domes tic happiness. Messrs. COOPER, MUNROE, and Co. are consulted daily sit both houses, until nine at night, where all the Members of the Board alter nately attend. There are side doors at each house, and private roans for females, who are treated with the greatest delicacy.. Advice gratis, at Charlotte House, Mackfriars, Tuesday, Thins day,- and Saliday and at Woodstock-house, Mondiy, Wedoesday,Eriday, and Sundays, until 13 u'clot.k. The Piles and Fittula cured without outtinif