The Sun. — London, England, 1806-03-18 00:00:00

Mr. WHITSTIED KEENE reminded the House, that acthe breaking - out of the War, when a strong opinion of an attempt at Invasion on the part of the Enemy prevailed, both the English and Irish Militia had offered their services to Government. A Bill had on a former occasion passed the House for em powering His Majesty to accept the services of the English Militia in Ireland. They would willingly go io Ireland rain.; and he . regretted that they were not so employed. He thought that nothing could cement the Union between the two Countiies.so well as a 'reciprocity of the services of the Militia ; he therefore strongly recommended - to His Majesty's Ministers that, while the English Militia were em- ployed in Ireland, the Irish Militia should be em ployed-in England. As an argument in favour of this measure, he observed; that Ireland was po doubt the obje& of that ,arclifiend Who was the great enemy 'of this Country: He. knew well the state of that Country. The North was poptalous, industrious, and decidedly initnical to Bonaparte. They were 'not to be seduced by _his insidipus i)rotni'ses; but the West apd:the South were very differently circum- Staneed ; and it was not an A& of Parliament 'vhich could alter the prejucliCes and the habits of the people, but such an intercourse and intermix ; Ore as he had pointed out. •It must be 'the work of time. Re thought if the EngliSh Militia did mani fest'a disposition to reciprocity of service, the Irish Militia would not skew more reluciance in coming over here. He instanced the good etleas of that .kind of intercourse now recommended by the present state of the Sea Fencibles in Ireland, who were, previous to the commencement of the War, a disor derly and disaffe&ed rabble,' ready to give informa tion and assistance to the EneMy - ; but, organized and trained to the use of arms, under the inspe&ion of Officers of the British Navy; form an etive, effi cient, and loy a l force of ten thousand men, along a certain extent of the Irish Coast. This force, the Ron. Member trusted, from the increase of cent 4nerce and navigation, the produaiveneSs of the soil, .and the fertility of the people, wpgld . soon increase' 0 thirty thousand., The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. • • • D rose„ in consequence of his, kiotice, to move for an Account of the application of a sum of ?..0,0001: included in the Navy Estimates of the last year. It was said to be for th.e.Corrimis • stoners for examining into the civil affairs of the Navy ; but it was extraordinary that no account had eveF been given of its application. The "Comtnis sioners of Naval Inquiry had been sitting three years, and no reward had as yet been given to them, . tho' they had done- the . most essential service to their country. Upon this Parliamentary CommissiOn the late Administration . had ,fotinded another 'COr4mis, . and for this Commission had applied for the, burn of 20;0001. It was proper, certainly, that they who engaged in the Public Service . should be paid for it, but then there was a decency to be obServed iu the node of proceeding; . and here 'there ,were cir cumstances omitted, that ought to have been oh ,seryed., It was always the custom on these occasions to grant rewards to Commissioners after their Work was done, while here. they had it before they had well begun. ,He .did not mean to throw any blame on these Commissioners ; they might have done their duty as well as-the Commissioners of Naval Inquiry; all he said was, that. a proper detailed :ac-, count of the application of this ,money ought to be laid before the ,House. Their salaries, at for' each, would, in the-'sjace if two.years,amotint only to ia,oofil. and thus.so.ool.,remained entirely un accounted for, while .the., commissioners of Naval 4qUiry, in all their tournies to PortstnOnth, &c. had expended only 50001. .He conclUded by moving for .an account-of the application of 20,001. included in the Estiniates of the Navy for the years 1805-6 stated pere to be for 'discharging the expences of the Commissioners for Revising the Civil Affairs of the 'sl"avy, with the documentS'on which it was founded; pod the Correspondence between the Cemmissionera anti the Admiralty. . . Lord- CA STLEREAdH did not rise to ob . Et je to the Motion, but merely to advert.to an unfair reflec tion which the : HOU.. Gentleman mode, in stating that this was contrary to the usual practice in cases. of .Qornmissions.. He contended that there was a dif ference in this respe& between a COMmission ap pointed ley the Execntive GoVernmeut and one ap pointed by Parliament. In the for Mer .case it was proper, and he believed it was the praEtice, to give in an estimate for the expenCes of..such Commis sions. The estimate, be Stilted to be 'for two years, ;Rd 44 to the 50901 overplus, this would go to pay ,he salaries of the different Officers attached; to it. Mr. WHITBREAD rather thought that this mode of e,stinvites was not the usual practice. . , . . Mr. ljusK.lssoN atm Mr. BASTARD SRid - a few vror4s or the same subjeet. Mr. Vv ILBERFORCE observed; that in comparing the difference of the expenditure of the two Com issions, ought to be considered that the Commis.. &loners of Naval Inquiry were to be rewarded by rarliament hereafter. Mr. WtimsREAD said, that the.cotnparison was respeaing the 50001. surplus,,and what the Commis . - , sioners of Naval Inquiry had'already expended: 'Mr. WILBERFORcE explained. Mr. STURGES 13OURNE-ObSerVed, that out of this pouoi. the salaries of the Secretary, which was 8001. and o the other Officers were to be paid. IClr. WHlTBREADobserved, that the salary of Mr. Thomsen, when Secretary, 'was only 5001. and how the services of another came to be Worth' 8001. bet ter that) Mr. Thomson's were of 5001. he did not )now. The Motion was then agreed to. Ar ! B.i.sTA.Ro moved for an Acpount of the Ex, ,fences of the Commissioners of Naval Inquiry, stating the items since their appointment, to the end, of the year 1805.-01-demi. • _ _ Mr. AUXANDER brought up the Report of the committee of Supply, containing the Resolutions re speCting the Ordnance Estimates. Op the Motion that these be read a second time, General PA RLEI:OIV rose to say a few words on different points connea - ted with this subjeet. Some preliminary observations might be proper. When the Secretary for the War Department rose the other day, to give some notice respeeting his plati, pr sys- f tem, or whatever he chose to call it, the buz of pe4ation in the House was such, that he did not hear distipEtly whether or not he meant to repeal thp :Additional Force Bill. He could assure the House, 'that this 43i11, which had beta o ulluch ridicpled i by the Right Honourable Secretary Arid lib friends, bad been exceedingly produEtive of late. ft had produced three hundred and fifty men during the last 'weeks. Many looked to him with anxiety on this point. Many, likewise, looked to him with anxiety on account of the Volunteers, whom, in his speeches, when on the Opposition side of the House, he had so much ridiculed, and wondered how he had not retracted what he then said, or provided some substitute for this force, As' a military , man who had served thirty Years, sometimes aClively ern , ployed, and be would have been employed oftener had it not been for his violent attachment to some Gentlemen - whom he had in his eye, he would say , that the Right Hon. Secretary's ideas on war differed from those of every author or every nraillical Officer. A Gentleman (Mr. Sheridan) who had lately got a naval cloak, but which- did not keep him warm enough to enable him to come down to follow up his notice respeCting . the Repeal of the Parish MI, had once alluded to the horses in the state-carriage, and how ill they were matched. They were, how ever, in a worse situation now, for there was. such prancieg and kicking that it seemed necessary to stop the machine altogether to prevent its being overturned. -When he had once come from abroad, the Right Hon. Gentleman had told him that the Enemy seemed al ways to be three weeks before hand, while we were three weeks behind hand. Now- with respect to the Ordtiance Estimates, they were the same as those which, had been prepared . by the late-1044, The Honburable General then paid some compli, ments to Lord Chatham, whom every one, he said, 'must respe& as the sou' of such a father, and the brother of so .“ excellent a Statesman." The anion of Trafalgar altered- the nature of the 'War. Ships.the Enemy could have none, or if they built them, they would be of no more use than the toys of Bond street, as they had no sailors. The attempt at in= yasion must • therefore be made with the flotilla. After the fete promised to the French Army in May, they would come to the Coast infuriated against this Country by the, desire of military glory and the hopes of plunder; :sind it was our duty therefore to guard against this sort of force. As to our selves, 'Woolwich was the only grand depot for ord nance preparations. This he thought improper, be . cause, in case. of invasion, our troops might be com pelled*to fight at a disadvantage in order to defend Woolwich. There ought to be a depot in the centre of the Country, that though Woolwich and London should be taken, there might, still be a resource for the Armies in the Notthern Counties He knew that there was a small depot at'Weeden-Beck, in North amptonshire, but this was not sufficiently extensive. was better, at • all events, as' Mr. Burke had said, to be despised foe too much caution, than to be ruined by being too Secure. - Mr: CALCRAFT said, that the Honourable Ge neral had, only mentioned two_ or three things to which it 'was necessary for him to allude. The Es timates he acknowledged to be nearly the sire as those found in the Office, and the reason was, that' the services for, which they - were called had advanced so far that they could not be altered withont great loss. With , regard to the Laboratory at Wool wich, they had found 12,0001. placed in the Esti mate for, this item,, but in fiat - it appeared that eti,oool. were necessary, and they had adopted this sum. -As to a central Depot, if the. Hon. General had examined the Estimates, he. would have found that the _one at Wecden Beck was in, a state of great forwardness. . General T 4 I.t,L N .explained: Lord CAS'I'LEREAGH wished to know whether it was the intention of,Government to follow up the Plans of Defence for the. rest of the Coast, as had been ;adopted by the late Administration with respe& to Kent and Sussex ?—He thought it ought also to, be .followed .up in Ireland ; and his late friend (Mr. Pitt) had intended to • have this Session - , proposed a Plan for the internal defence of that Kingdom. ' For this purpose, and the defence of the Coast, he ad vised the Ministry to require a liberal•vote.He - had no obje&ion to the Estimates', and as to what had, been said by his Hon. Friend, he agreed with him.that it was a wise principle, to put - our means of defence out of the reach of any one disaster.' The late Board had this in view, 'and had done a great deal in it, and .though Weeden Beck was not in a state of ;lerfeicli on, it was in great forwardness. He contended that it was'unjust to the Country to leave the point as to the repeal of the Additional Force.A& so long• in suspence. That Ad had shown lately a i degree of vigour whit') had a little disturbed the Right Honourable Secretary. He wished to know whether it was intended to enforce -the law against the Couuties - which had not done their duty. Many, from an. expeaation that it would not be enforced, would delay proceeding till they could not•pay them with so'much advantage, and it would be contrary to all justice -to allow them to escape. The State Physicians were consulting together, so long that some of . 'the patients - Must die, before they. could agree about the prescription. _ _ Mr., WI - ND-11AM o bserved, that• no declaration had been made by ,him and his friends, because it was not necessary; and it was remarkable that the grounds bn which they were so often questioned . contained an admission that things had been left in a state so exceedingly bad as to call for immediate amendment. This the Noble Lord had very pro .perly represented under the similitude of a patient. But the late Physicians had brought their patients to death's door, and now they were clamburous be cause they Were not immediately cured. The No . - ble Lord, asked what they intended to do ?—lt was indeed difficult to say at present, for where the case of the patients were so desperate it Was, to be ma naged with delicacy. f He thanked the Noble Lord for his most excellent advice—but as to his ques tions, he must decline saying any thing, not perhaps because be was not prepared; but because there was no occasion to answer. The Additional Force Bill, however, was ridpart of his scheme. Mr. CANNHvTG supported the arguments of Ge neral Tarleton and Lord Castlereagh ; and, in allu sion-to the "dedlarations: of The Secretary of State on a former occasiOn'respecaing the inipetfAion of the Military System of the Country at that time, ..x -pressed his astonishment, that -the Right Hon.'S'e cretary, who then thought a proper plan of _defence a matter of so much facility as to be obvious almost to every man, should now find so much difficulty, and exhibit such palsied tardiness in producing any 1 3 11!n. The HottSe• had been occUpi6d for four years past by the complaints and inveaives of the Right Jio x, Secretary -and his I . *4c,ipagainst Ziis Majesty's late Ministers, and in itripresalng upon the House 'and the Country the great hopes that were to be formed upon a broad-bottomed 'Admi nistration, including all th& talents, char &er, re spectability, virtue, rank, and eloquence of the Country. The obje& of the Right Hon. Gentle man and his Friends had been at length answered ; they had got every thing their own way, and to the extent of their wishes ; and yet, with all this con centration and conflagration of talents, six we . .•ks were now elapsed, without their being able to pro pose to the House any thing like a 'Military System to please themselves, notwithstanding the prompti tude and facility which the Right Hon. Gentleman-- had so often professed. According to the crew system of the present Administration, he understood it to be a principle, that the person at the head of each department was to be solely responsible for the trarrsaelions in his department ; but whatever degree of confidence he might be disposed to attach 'to the general responsibility of the present Admi nistration, taken as a whole, he could nbt confide in them individually as their parts were' cast, par ticularly in the War Department; for he had no hesitation in saying for himself, and he : believed he spoke the opinion of ninety-nine in a hundred throughout the Country, that the Right Hon. Gen tleman, whatever might be his fitness for other de partments, ought not to be looked to as a complete War Minister. There were many other instances to which he might apply similar objeaions ; but, upon the whole, his confidence was rather direCted to the great and superintending spirit'which was supposed to have the chief dire6tion and manage ment, Mr. Canning then made some pointed al lusions to certain declarations on former occasions, which he attributed to Mr. Windham one of which was, that he (Mr. Windham) had sat, nine years in a Cabinet with which he differed upon al most every material point in discussion ; and, there fore, he could attach no confidence to a Minister who could make such a declaration. If he really had any plan to bring forward for military defence, with the apizobation of his colleagues, he, was in- dined to suppose it their's, and not his own. Mr. WINDHAM explained, id totally denied the whole of'the declarations attributed to him. The opinions in which he differed from certain Members of that Cabinet he had expressed before-he became a Member of it. He was guarded against the stra tagems of the Hon. Gentleman to lead biro into a disclosure of any part of his plan until the whole should be submitted to the House. Any delay or , difficulty on the point was entirely_owing to the for mer Administration. Mr. WHI7TREAD said, that the Hon. Gentle man over the way seemed to have altered his ,senti ments of late.. When he intimated in this House that a change had taken place in a particular branch of the late Ministry, and hinted that it 'was at his request, he appeared. to suppose that. the proper choice of persons to particular offices wag a very material consideration, butnovv he.admired the pre sent. Administration on the whole, though he thought some of the particular places improperly filled. He also alluded to declarations which %sere .never made; and as t,o the measures of the late Ad ministration, though many of them were wrong' in' principle, yet it might be dangerous to alter them all at once. The Hon. Gentleman had,spoken very feelingly about the circumstances under which the present Ministers fOrmerly contended against delay, which was all very well, had he not, in a very in decorous manner, intimated that they, had no feel , ing at all. As to the repeal of the Additional Force At% he defended the conduct of the Treasurer .of the Navy, who had now, very properly, left the matter in the proper hands. The Parish Bill, he said, had never been carried into execution, nor was it in execution at this day, for all the men under it, were raised by Crimps and Recruiting Officers, and were accepted in different cases though under the proper size. The Hon. Gentleman had said that the AEI would be palsied by suspence. It was ; ex-, traordinary that by his own confession it was more vigorous in 'this paralytic state than ever it was be fore: The .Hon. gentleman had got into a train of warm argument on his Right Hon. Friend's refusing to answer; but he was not to be :taken in by this, nor by the more insidious calmness of the Noble Lord. He was not to bring forward a crude schenie to retain all the former measures, and add to them some foolish, ill-considered chimerical plan of his own, to cajole the people and make them think that a great change had actually taken plate. The zeal of the Volunteers, he contended, had not abated ; as to the penalties, , he thought it hard that when' the Parishes could neither find men nor money, they should be attacked by those who had placed them in this situation. Mr. FOX Said, it was necessary for him, in con, sequence of the general observations made by the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, on the other side, to say a few words. That. Right Hon. Gentle man had stated, that the present Ministry comprised all the talent in the ,Country; and he lad even stared it in such a manner as might lead to a sup position ttret they had so'represented themselves. He should.be happy that the Right Hon. Gentle-, man would state on what occasion he had beard them so' represent themselves. It was impossible that they could have said so, when they saw the the Right Hon. Gentleman 'on the other side of the House. It would be ridiculous. in any person to sinuate that Ministry comprised d all the talent of the Country, when he Right Hon. Gentleman was out of office. Not only the Right Hon. Gentleman, but his Colleagues on the same bench with him, had made such a representation impossible, particu larly by the display of talent which they had already made in Opposition. This declaration he (Mr. Fox) made for. himself'and his Colleagues. It was possible some of the friends of the present try, thinking too highly of their merits, might, from prejudice or partiality, have so described them, but he thought it was hardly for the friends of a Right Hon. Gentleman, lately deceased, to be the first to object to that species of compliment. He had never, so far as that Right Hon. Gentleman was concern ed, observed the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite an enemy to panegyric • let him look to what he him self. had said of his fate Right Hon. Friend, and he would not think the partiality of friends so unwar rantable. With respea to his Right Eton. Friend near filth (Mr. Windham), the Right Hon, -Gentle man had said that he had, no opinion of ,him, 'nor. .any confidence in him as a War' Minister, and that 99 out of 100 were of ana s ,e wiL4 44:1 this sribjeet. This opinion .he immediately took nit granted, anti goes on—not to propose to turn him out--- , -but to say, i` Before you have fully matured your plan, explain to sne the nature of it." Was it, he would ask, a fair inference of want of confidence, to require of his Right Hon. Friend, to tell theta . the nature of his plan out of time ? • His Right Hon. Friend admitted lie was not completely ready. lii that case he presumed to think it extremely hat that Gentlemen opposite should say, answer us' on a point on which yon confess you are not ready. It was well known that it was always the wish of the Right Hon. Gentleman lately deceased to endea vour. to get the friends with whom he (Mr. Fax) acted to make a part of his (Mr. Pitt's) Ministry, and that such endeavours had been used with Ins Right Hon. Friend, Mr. Windham, after hex made the Speeches to which the Right Hon. .Gen. tleman ppposite alluded, It might, indeed, be said, that it was not in theicontemplation of Mr, Pitt to give his Right Hon. Friend tl* War n but to have placed him in some situation. If he (11fr. Fox), however,* Understood the Right H o n. Gentleman opposite, no change, of place c o uld h ave satisfied the Right Hon. Gentlema n , o r remove d his objections to his Right Hon. F r i en d h o ldi ng any ....opartroent, situation. He would have said, e` It is not to the head of the particular department that I give my. Confidence, but 'to the whole of the Ministry." The Right Hon. Gentleman talked of delay. It was not till the 7th of Feb: that his Rt: Hon. Friend's Writ was moved. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt), to whom he 'was convinced the Right Hon. Gen tleman opposite would not willingly impute delay,.or any other bad quality, did not for founweeks after his return to power bring in ,his Additional Force A&. There the time which intervened was nearly as long. as in the present instance. There too a single A& only waste be introduced. Here there was a new system to be founded. There, however, no bbjedion of delay was started, neither were any premature ingeiries made into the nature of the plan: which he intencled,to adopt; If there had been any - - such, how awkwardly must that Right Hon. Gen tleman have found himself situated in declaring it to be - built on a system such as he himself had been decrying within the last three weeks. The- Right Hon. Secretary declared, that he could net. figure any reason for putting any question like, the, present, but a with to embarrass. What good mo tive' could. the persisting in it proceed from, when his Right Hon. Friend - - had stated that he was not , quite ready to bring forward his measure If he was guilty of delay, why not bring forward against . him a charge to that effed; and let his (=lna be thesubjea of Parliameritary in q uiry ? But what ad vantage could proceed from a premature declaration, similar to that now required ? From what motive but a bad one could - the wish to procure such a de claration-proceed ? .He should only put it to the candour of the Right Hon. Gentleman himself : If, be fore the,Planof the military arrangements now in agi tation had been ready to be laid before the House, his Right Hon. Friend had at once moved for the Re peal of the Additional Force Rill, while eething -was ready to substitute in its stead, what would the Right Hon. Gentleman have said ? Would he net have said- r Here, this is your haste to shew your triumph over the Gentleman who is now no more. Could you not have waited with patience, , atrel al lowed the A& to take its course till you were ready with a •substitute 1 He would appeal to the Right Hon. Gentleman- if that would n-at have been hit' condud f and, if his Right Hon. Friend now said that this Bill formed - no part pf his Plan, did it not follow that this was not the time to investigate or.. discess its merits ? Mr. CANNING explaißed, deelar3lll that his con -% du& would have been sea as Mr: Fox supposed, 44 the event figured by him. Mr. PERCEVAL thought that the different to. pics which had been discussed to-night would come more properly before the House on a future oeea.. sion. He thought, however, that it was hard i ly term& in the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Poi) to say that it was impossible the question . coulgt have been put from a good motive, more particular. ly as his Noble Friend did not press his question, concerning the Plan which the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Windham) had in contemplation, but limited it as to the penalties. This, he thought, was, a reason, - able and proper 'question, as, , while it was suf.- fered to remain. ih suspende, whether they were to he levied or not, it acted with a double disadvan.. tage.: He expreSsed his happiness to- understand frorn"the last Speaker on the other side (Mr. t"ox) a thing which he 'had not formerly understood, any which, he himself did not exped, that a comprehen, sive Plan was ativally formed. If so he thought Monday next not an unreasonable time for bringing forward so great a measure: Mr. Fox expleined._ _ Dr LAWRENCE agreed with hip Learned Friend 'opp.psite (Mr. Perceval) as to this not being the very best moment for agitating the points which had been introduced. ner was sorry to obseive, however, that Gentlemen cud the other side had just begun to perceive , so, when it w4s too late for then - to profit by the observa . Oon. The Report Was then brought up 4n4 ti4e nesOU tiOns were agreed to. _ INDIA. Mr. PAULL moved, that an Order of the House, dated kith of January lint, for the produ&ion ofcer• tain Papers relative to the Management of Affairs ir; India, be read ; which being done, the Hon. Mem ber stated,' that upwards of nine months ago he had moved fur certain Papers,, which he intended to make the foundation of Charges against Marquis Wellesley; on the y7th of January last he ha l moved for other, Papers of a similar nature • and- on the Ist of February an Hon. Memb er (Mr. Wal.# lace) had moved for certain other Papers, with a view of vindicating the Noble Marquis from the Charges which he (Mr. Paull) intended to bring against him. Without imputing it as any blame to the present Ministers, he had to state it as a matte; of complaint, that though the Papers which he had,, moved for had been ordered so long previous to the" others, yet that those Papers which formed the No, ble Marquis's defence were in the hands of the Members of the E louse, while those which he hail moved for, and which formed the ground of Charge against the .Noble Marquis;were, in a great mea sure, .not yet on' the Table of the House. He therefore moved, That Returns of the Papers pon• tained, in the Orclerof the 27th of 4anuat7 be inxi, itutliw* I