The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser. — Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-04-23 00:00:00

ie necessary fOr him to detain the aiming arguments in favour of commutation. (Hear.) His pri ,xplaining the 'principles of his ttated, was undoubtedly of great portant when considered as a In, change that would be substantial].) at the same time adding to the burl he, however, entered into the mai took to bring under their consider that he should at the outset di public with respect to the very amount of the revenues of the dm on several occasions, and very v . hon. member. It had, for instal member, that the revenues of the were £9,000,000 per annum. N, tion never was uttered. (Hear.) bishops of England and Wale: Sodor and Man, was but £158,54. deans and chapters were £236,358 exact returns of the income of had sufficient data for asserting ti £3,000,000 sterling per annum, mi bishops and the deans and chapte' little more than £3,500,000, inSti (Hear.) It would, perhaps, be bi to show that he had not understal chial clergy, the data on which hi There were 11,400 livings in Em turns from 9,660. These return, per annum. Now, there was no that the. remaining livings were 9,660 ; so that, taking the same total of £3,226,000 per annum This,equally divided, would give with the revenues of the prebendi also equally divided among the an average of £3OO per annum It was hardly necessary for him sidered, £3OO per annum was not sident working clergyman of the it was also unnecessary for him between the condition aiit circus hand as would render a higher nn latter. (Hear.) A great object ing of the residence of a clergy . cries of " Hear.") That, certai ject. (Hear.) Whether consi( or in a . political point of view, hi one opinion of the desirableness, in every parish. (Hear.) An ( would all agree that £3OO per at come for the resident minister. that income was to be obtained: the revenue of the clergyman b. bounden duty of the legislature being, not only a source of disc( persons paying, but also disadv of the clergyman himself was desirable that the revenue Oa angry recriminations and collis flock as might tend to impair hi ness. (Hear, hear.) Now, tip of church income, had been ton ; prejudicial collisions; and, ace gislature had acted on the prim ever a favourable opportunit3 bounden duty of the legislature all obstructions in the way of th gyman; that his income should which almoSt inevitably endan spirit of discontent and opposit liuence as a minister of the gos] The object of the measure was adjustment of this question d that it was most desirable that purely permissive; that the lie: and the tithe receivers—shoul fairly agree as to the arrangem, He would not say that he allow missive measure would have tl commutation of tithes througl not be expected that a purely . lutely effect all the objects wtn, in the first instance, to give pi owner, and the tithe-payer. he begged to say that he did n, tion should be confined to t, (hear) —he thought that the p mittatis vuttandis, to the lay it that the measure which he waL in the first instance, give power owners, whether clergymen or lay impropris arrangement for a commutation of tithes into si rent, varying, of course, according to the price ° t converting tithes into a perpeiusa rent, it was 0 , sary to make its amount be measured by the variations in the prices of corn. In making thi' thought it right not to allow the clergyman of $1 mute the tithes of it without the consent of tbo living and . of the bishop of the dioce ss ; and, 00„1 not to allow the tenant of a farm to commute IT the consent of the landlord. Ile proposed, in th to give twelve mouths after the passing of this ft —the tithe-payer and the tithe-owner—by a I° agreement entered into between them, t o couk • into a perpetual corn rent. But if , after that per l ,, a commutation should not take place, which P must suppose would be the case in the ill 5 parishes, though he trusted that it would flat proposed that the tithe-payer or tithe-receiver , ing it necessary that the whole of the parish the subject, but allowing any individual tithio notice to the tithe-receiver that he intended tithes,—he then proposed that the tithe-paye r : a valuator, and that the tithe-receiver shoU l appoint, a valuator on the other side, and l"!„ proceed at once to a valuation of the tithes the purpose of effecting a commutation o f the' one other measure which was absolutely pressed more or less in point of time for imul e tion, and which he hoped in a very s h or t ti' some other member of his Majesty's goverialu e er the honour of proposing, either in that ho use House of Parhament,—he alluded to a measure for the future pluralities in the church of Bog With regard to other measures, there were dil way of their adoption, but nevertheless he h° that at early period other propositions would be, to meet other evils. He would not pledge present than to say, that some measures w ool ward by government for that purpose. As he t ; commencement of his address to the house, that this measure, though it did not appear to magnitude, yet it' it should effect that which 10$ and general advantage to the public ,— n amel y ,, of tithes, at an early period throughout the Co: ceived that it would be entitled to be looke d tie of considerable magnitude indeed, though at h might not attach such importance to it. This 13e nant with this great advantage to the landed interests of the county, that it would give the. employing their capital upon their land, witheu i by the collection of tithes, which had always 1). k1 ; the improvement of agricultural property (Hear.) The noble lord concluded by inovk bring in a bill to effect a commutation of tithes Mr. A. BARING said a few words, which were gallery. Lord ALTIIOIIP, in answer, said that it was 4 , lieved, that wherever a composition for tithes 1 ),, included the poor-rates, and that it would be o°'i that the valuators should take them into the' hereafter, whenever a commutation was abo ut , would be for the public benefit that the clerg)ll', an interest in the poor-rates, in order to ensure uistration. Sir R. INGLIS said that the noble lord was b i admit that this permissive measure ryas The noble lord first gave permission, but he h" wards by compulsion. The noble lord, in fact' " Keeps the word of promise to the But breaks it to the hope." • On a more fitting occasion he should be prep° a discussion of the details of this measure. I hear the noble lord declare that he would de' ' l ,, in the same way, whether in the hands w° ll laymen. He trusted that such a principle , I ten when they were legislating on this subje°, Mr. HUME thought it would be better for 011 missioners were appointed by government too throughout the country and buy them up, and to, •be paid either out of the Excheq uer or by th of Hear," and "Oh ! oh !") Such a plan under the serious consideration of persons ilk,/ the noble lord; and if such a plan had been ilk,/ i• 40 -ears ago, it would have been better for the, - Sir R: PEEL was sure that there was no adverse to the principle of a conmmutation 014 t from being opposed to it, was ready to give 0337 such a principle _ and nciple th e most careful consideration. ALTHORP explained, that what was meant in that part Measure was, that the tithe-receiver should have the 0r a. paid accordin g to the price of so many b eing certain grain, according to which the tithe had 'Eat, after alluding to other portions of the measure, Agq itt.to a fuller discussion of it on future oc- . • rEntGessoi a few wpr s which . said 41 ., the it ga ery. 4 were not distinctly Ldlisk i , 0 . NGToN said, that dnring tliq last 130 years the i the litigation hetween tithe payers and tithe 'anted to to a sum that would be sufficient to establish in prosperity. When they recollected the difficul. it __ .4 4, ssubject. they should not be ready to expect w s„Pessible to overcome them all by one simple ,„„,_tte had objections to the mode of payment, and , hs of the pl4n, but he would. reserve them until the V-It into committee on the bill. lI , G was glad to perceive that so little of party feel een raixeu u what d He was to 0 , . p the propose measure. observe with temper the noble lord had intros etr4and " great a desire he had displayed to act with impartiality towards the interests of all parties die lie hailed the introduction of the bill, inasmuch sills vel that it would tend to dissipate the gross misrepre- Liiroalyith regard to the established church which were , e , 0. These temporary delusions,—for he the ' fil4n 'arv,----the result of malevolence or ofignorance, • 'vanish tier' de l ord or e the facts which the measure proposed by 1 - `so 'bring to light. They had already created • ehon,,el l. t , Amn ' , I ° ''' was of opinion that as little change as possible iv + . l ‘'a in the present rate of tithe payment; and, con -I"ruht that every man in the country should pay, VW arrangement, pretty nearly the same as . he did 41! assured the nobie lord that when the bill was "Ivould give it his best attention. Alh thought some difficulty would arise with respect r the ° it i kind, owing to the frequent removal of . Purpose of shearing, feeding, &c., which prac . ‘• Pat in tome for the purpose of altering the rate. • ' 0 ask the noble lord whether the present mea , sure itittodueed with h btin of the heads ot the t e appro a o IT EI , exp h ressed his app ro b a ti on o f th e measure . of t °llP said that the m easure h a d b een su b m i t t e d t o eith er ° church ; b ut h e was not author i sed to state y*Pproved or disapproved of it. Indeed it was or t hat the bishops should express any decided the othe r upon a su bj ect in w hi ch they ha d no ,rest, inasmuch as it affected parochial clergy alone. t° the obj ect i on which had been started by the lie admitted that there was much force in it, but ..oald be devised for the commutation of tithes to iu h s objections might not be made. He would frankly pr on e OIII Y Principle which could be substituted for that as sa t' i ° sed was one of a general actual valuation of laud; co r , s ued that if that were made the basis of a measure wo l A ll tation of tithes, so far from being considered a ex tor e p t Te !general discontent. The noble lord con .lo-I,Bs'ng his gratification at the manner in which t i s l'ad been received by the house. Hum ' e ll given to bring in the bill. SINECURES. 1 /1 ee Pressed a wish that, in bringing forward the iUod he had gi ven no ti ce , his object might not be With t i e 01 1 two former occasions he had submitted Pea, e view of putting an end to offices in which no ruo nev r rnen, and consequently to save so much of the the 4 - un as was paid to the persons holding those offices tak e °f salaries and e allowances. Objections, how -11 to th e manner i n wh i ch he introduced both the h ls 4 ,,e person s t h oug h t t h at h e h a d not su ffi c i ent l y iei ) ,Neet, whilst others were of opinion that the time ght the subj ec t f orwar d was no t we ll c h osen . rea seh tl t og . the c ourse w hi c h h e h a d pursue d , h owever, h e 1 - „ h ° , o l duce him to suppose that he had done wrong. - "en he was about to submit to the house was a broader basis than either of the two others, and Iv a ,P ° l l . it would ena bl e th e p eo pl e t o ascer t a i n h ow e "' s posed to forward their anxious wishes for les- LryjPenditure. He had received from many parts of bad;P l anation s which had been made by hon..mern oted d against his former motions, but they indni not for le ; In 181.8, when the people were urgenttheir . wh.Lrenchinent, the ministers appointed a finance e arit i , i , e k h consisted chiefly of government officers . or a I,°° confidence of government. 'phis committee f w 4 t .''orious investigation on the subject of sinecures, t 'tleh they published in the schedules attached to 14 s e From these schedules it appeared that the emolu .4:lliteptlices existing in 1809 were as follows: 41 4 1gland and the colonies . bat Scotland ' d re,an 82,000 t r , er k l ° : ( l many sinecure offices had been abolished by t r ,'eh had been passed for the reform of the law lot 8 0`and and Scotland, and he regretted that he v ‘hieC e the number of those remaining, because the •Inov e r°,.od have supplied that infdrmat . ion, and w ich l 'red ielr, had not yet been laid before the hou . se. that the amount of the sinecures still existing lath taggerated, but he wished the house to under !aoai t rather to the principle of those offices than tliwe emolument attached to them that he . objected. h„ e oloney drawn from the pockets of an over huiear'\given to individuals who performed no duties "stita It was incumbent on the house to satisfy Istp ri e llts that they were determined in future to act tot of 1 ,, -11e 'Ples. It w:as really painful to reflect upon the g i neY Which had been squandered in this manner. bq'e -41 g too far to assert that one-half of the national ry toll. c reated by the payment of sinecures, for it was . 4044 1e illate, in addition to the sum annually paid, mss interest upon them, that they were paid to per -11( ,essed influence in both Ilouses of Parliament to 11 4 C ° Sanction measures which had contributed to eitter n t al.debt. On the 3d of April, 1816, a return li st e 0 0 the hou se signed " Henry Goulburn," con 1d h," sinecure • offices in only eight West India !ka l ,' Persons wh o did no t res id e th ere , t h e emoluments "lad - rated to £53,000 a n nua lly. Fr om th ose indivi tselectecl seven, including tne Hon. C. W. Wind fr .a'uroke, and Sir C. Greville, who, he foud, had tht e ;:tn, the date of their appointment to the sinecure ke, l ' f\ ucy held up to 1816, no less than £1,623,950 in prin !, folh,', ° , the 13th of June, 1809, the finance committee this " - lug report to the house :—" That it is the opi de°nlmittee that the existence of sinecure offices, 11 4, e PutS', is unnecessary and inexpedient as a means i l k ' Public services." Shortly after the report was it, e irl Oved a resolution em bOdyi ng th e. opinion ex -I„,w "ich was negatived, and from that time until the ic ceen he made his motion, the question had not raetmoktider the consideration of the house. (Hear.) a er ?er, after eulogizing the Marquess Camden for the e, :,,„ .11 which he hiid resigned the profits of his sin - 01 4 L. °11 ., °tin , ' to 1:23,117 per annum, to the public as - 2) -- pro'ceeded to mention some of the sinecures 1 44 s 1(14 ) ' E. s. d. I diot s .le H • • 963 0 0 r3 .o ,.'llaPer, held by two young ladies, the the t t .. , ati. Earl, (h ear, h ear .) th e l . .° , vn in Chancery, Earl Bathurst llOB 0 0 iel rag Bench, Lord Ellenborough, til-1 -- tlte e Seals in the ) Court of Common Pleas, 7905 0 0 of,of Grafton 2286 0 0 ... 4fadavits in Chancery, Hon. W. H 1816 0 0 .0f ........... ; .................. 8502 0 0 k th e t u Krupts, Lord fhurlow janaper, Lord Thurlow lt,„'''cotland, the Earl of Rosslvn 1712 0 0 l ti ' e erY, held fur his children, the Earl the ito• .................. time us e wheth er suc h a system ought to be conti hijtewhen ,gshoments vernm ? ent (Hear, were discharg inghear.)op laboure7 1 ,4 44 ,establi uheu ii. ° Present h o ld ers o f s i necures oug ht to he de uut his motion would not raise that question, as interests untouched: The hon. member then r.,11,„"°05, namely, first, " That, on all future vacan the' Offices, in the naval, military, civil, or colonial aft llll trY, no new appointment shall be made, nor 'to hi a nte, or em o l umen t s gran ted." It had b een Ut , C lll, however, he observed, that it would be better ito naval and military," an d to say, generally, " si qat home and abro - ad," which would convey no re i e resolution was so ared The second reso- h at no person shall re lte ceive . an appointment to as to ',° which emolument was attached, the duties o ne performed by deputy. The object of this It,, prevent any office beingleld by individuals who :u :Ditnteir duty and responsibility to olliers. This p rst °ined, in 1822, in the instance of Beceiyers-Gene-. w asked the house p t u o extend it to all offices. re solution beint, Lord ALTIIORP said, that in respect to the substance of the motion, he felt no objection to it whatever. (Hear.) The hon. ruemberhad; however, cited a number of offices, from the re port of 1816, several of which he knew had been abolished. He was surprised that the hon. member had mentioned the case of Lord Thurlow, which was abolished by the bankruptcy bill.— Lord Frederick Campbell, too, who had held an office in the Chancery of Scotland, was dead. He, therefore, hoped that the house would not believe that all this list of offices still remained. He was not prepared to say how many had been abolished, but there had been several, and all would cease on the death of the holders. With respect to civil and colonial offices, he had not the least objection to the motion as it stood; but with regard to naval and military offices, a noble friend behind him (Lord Ebrington) had given notice of a motion for a committee of in quiry into military offices, and it was not his (Lord Althorp's) intention to oppose that motion,—so far from it, that he sug gested to him to add naval offices,—and it would be better for the hon. member not to interfere with that motion. The motion was then agreed to. Mr. HUMS, in moving his second resolution, called the at tention of the house to:the colonial appointments made in Eng land, of which the house knew nothing till they had taken place abroad ; and in a great many crises individuals had ob tained situations who were entirely unfit and unworthy. He submitted the propriety of all appointments to colonial offices being gazetted. Lord SANDONT confirmed the statement of the hon. member, with respect to Canada, on the authority of Sir George Mur ray, and - hoped that the suggestion would be adopted. Lord ALTHORP said he would not object to the motion. With regard to the, guggestion of the hon. member, he was not adverse to it, thopgh he would not pledge himself to the adoption of it. The resolution was then agreed to. Mr. HUME moved "That all offices filled up after this date, in any department under the Crown, civil, military, naval, or colonial, shall be subject to such alterations as to duties, and to such deductions and alterations as to salary and emoluments, as His Majesty's ministers, or the heads of departments under the sanction of this house, shall make, without the persons so appointed having any claim for compensation or allowance for such alterations." Lord ALTHORP objected to this motion. The effect of it, he observed, was to regulate offices hereafter, and the Crown had that power which it had acted upon, and had reduced the sala ries of several situations. '['he house in passing this resolution would assume that it would be out of the power of the Crown to regulate officers hereafter appointed. Mr. R. C. FERGUSSON objected to the motion. It was either unnecessary, as the Government had the power already, or the house gave to the Crown a power it had not. Mr. klumE would be glad to know if the Government had the power of reducing, the salary of a judge who might be ap pointed to-morrow? If the noble lord said "yes," he would withdraw his motion. Lord ALTHORP said that, as to the judges' salaries, they were fixed by act of Parliament. Mr. tiumE withdrew his motion. Lord JOHN RUSSELL brought in a bill to provide for the trial of petitioners complaining of bribery and corruption, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Tuesday. Such • ' rd !Princi r. , ,I? n.I.THOII e house, at any C,;( ; ' 1 ,..e Measur e the general pr t l ; e ';',";l e n, of bein rincnl duty l, : hic h, . v ' alu f ed. a c e , ; measure, It eir ilnpOrtanCe.. iv oihki he ~,_ tEt., neasure whien .0 4 i 'nuuld u , e - t n OD. o ily just and q eoldr. _. urdens of the i icolitrd -'' rE, G , ain question n' ht .- r. g ',lO 1 11 , t he gal eration, he thau ril tv ehs cstitri G . lisabuse hon- ra te A ver e o f the sr a e e s anion exaggerate d al ) Ty e h ur me Lurch, which bat burp tb , ell i t , n in bes t l i, recently er te tt i t c t ince, been as s I , o dr ur WaS pus a clergy of Eng to o er e ' Ile I row, a more net Iv 8 e I ) ,, r ts of tl ) The total 'll e i ~. t ent int, i es, including yes h ad L A ansiG v 527, and the ' li i c ,„", l ucen ra j 358, per annti ll ii a l d'r t t o oh aer ' ' all the par" c l ilt es,' and he, that it was ve/ e 0 tem - 4 1 1 44 i ni , naking, with t re o. e bell • Ile' ters, an entire 4 Iflt atie ,, eve ! ' tb tead of £9, o °°'` 5 0' e a b; 18 with better for him te e d e l ) , ,oad. T ated the revena l ho 0014 iel f i pnrar he had founde u t u b !. l'anish t ngland • of the e 0,- lord , ,let e - ..vo 'as gave a tou r ed„ o tt i s nougb • o reason whate''' o o alit b - t!snoN of a higher ar e ~,, h ewi e Inad 4 i re, tieltlitpcirwsisoaibtyrioeuarirtsubll average, the,' „.i i tb Y, tho u ,' for 11,400 liv'''e:, re e new Z an average of .1,: . ` i ouo it . 1 1e ass t daries, deaneries,, . Il r. , la h e r a parochial cleoL+ o,„,,LIAL co n I a and no m ore. , /ivest o ° ,.' , k\Ni o : 1 to contond that / .' t 4• C 4 tor th 'u 14 'lst b c of too high an 1 ,1 4 ,„ e Put le chureh of k; l 4 , dl3 ' 6 ed to i to point out . . 0' , .umstances of ir ~. 0 nominal income ' ~( 1 - ' l 4 ,, r E , s e , Let of his ineasiire, he4443l.'rtioliF yman in every , .L e linty, was a me 4/ Y ei g t f h e t r ile a idered in a religo he was sure there sof having a Clcr7 ,:".111terest, id he was equal') , it ,'"Pect t Lnuum was not to , ekb er fo o r I . The question , t e ared, h e .; that is, from 'T O ' l , s ears conk ! be derived? I r,_ t t i e l licas o b. e to prevent to," . b atti le n il content and diso o e :Prep e : l vantageous so far „,,, a SSati s fi -C , concerned. It i' it to ihrauta e iould not be the by er.l :sinus between th; to Y ex i ,, e _' Iris influence, aria „Pasifir n ithes in kind, deep . e Was th ei3 . ng felt to be pio'-, 45 • H 'cordinglv, for , , t 1 C SII.I iciple of -commutt°,t idetif which [ ty presented itse' 48 rst eoci u e to exert itself to • i , with the :he beneficial cue Y 46 peril A not be derived • money nrrr we e as ngered angry cO iii w et , aa ihe ;mon so unfavna, , ~ e tak e , 1 spel. (Loud cri l . h ed Suo ie Ls to produce a fad , 10 114 eb . of tithes. It Iv° . ue br J( t a measure of the 'nsid e ,,Ont - ..... re, -41., espective parties 1 , 4 et .so h to b i ild come voluntal l ett ' O 4 w nent that was ties l r,, t i !IPot, ale, gether expected vs'. „ I 'lot te u the effect of prod!' me vrat d r? ;hunt the country+, _ a ls .. s tir , qtr., ex pert Lich me-. o r tie ii' ex it Lich they had in v' I,- had ve ,_ power to the c lerkl , dB 'sthh lci te When he spoke ()i t ' tt for ret rot think it fair O a 4 l i e, Wi i i I. ' the tithe-propertY . • avil i l l i provisions of it she i l s lito, a l l . unpropriators also' jof wh '.'° as now about to I' l nits ~, ,wer to the tithe-1 0 ° sih ee ' r a or lay imnrooriat ° 1 (4regli;._e. THE LIVERPOOL STAN DARR the House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply was then read. Lord ASHLEY asked whether a copy of the instructions issued to the labour in factories commission had been prepared; and if so, when it could be laid before the house ? Lord ALTHORP said it would be furnished on Monday. The house then went into a committee of Supply. FINANCIAL STATENENT.-THE BUDGET. Lord ALTHORP said that he now rose to call the attention of the. house to the statement which he had to make respecting the finances of the country. When the present ministers entered upon office it was upon the principle and pledge that they would apply themselves to economy to the utmost of their power, and he wished, therefore, upon the first occasion of discussing the finances of the country before a reformed Parliament, to state the progress which ministers had made towards redeeming that pledge by effecting a reduction in the expenditure of the country. The actual number of places which they had abolished since they had come into office was-1387 (hear); and the total amount of salaries connected with those places was £231,405. (Cheers.) From that amount there certainly must be a reduction made of £38,000 a year, which had been given in the shape of retired allowances upon the reduction of those places. The amount of places so abolished up to the present time was £1387. The average of the salaries of the places so abolished warl:l73 10s. 9d. In applying himself to the state of the revenue, he would begin by stating what had been the amount of the income and ex penditure of the country during the year ending the sth of April, 18.33. The noble lord then read the following state ment:— INCOME AND EXPENDITURE FOR TUE YEAR ENDING APRIL, 1833. Income £46,852,650 Expenditure 45,365,507 Surplus Income 1,487,143 EX PEN Dll URE. Debt Other charges.. 29,225,991 1,859,248 Consolidated Fund.. 30,085,239 SUPPLIES. Army 7,006,498 Navy Ordnance. 1,634,817 Miscellaneous .....1.4 2,133,953 £45,365,507 The committee would. recollect that in the estimate_which he had made to the house during the last session of Parliament, he had stated the probable excess of income for the ensuing year over expenditure much lower than it now really proved to be. He had stated then that he only calculated upon an excess of income of £BOO,OOO ; he was now, however, happy to say, that in consequence principally of the reductions in expenditure which had• been made, the excess of income over expenditure now amounted to no less than £1,487,143, being an excess of income considerably more than covering the deficiency for the preceding year. (Hear, hear.) The deficiency in the preced ing year had been £1,240,412, and the surplus of the present year being £1,487,143, it would be seen that there had been an actual improvement in the present year above the preceding year of no less than £2,728,0,,10. The mode in which this had been effected had not been by arty great increase in the income of the country, for there had been but a very slight increase in the income of the country during the last two years ; the in come in 1832 being £46,61 . 8,00, and in 1833 £46,852,650, giv ing an excess of income for the year ending April 5, 1833, of £`235,01)0; but it had been the consequence of the considerable diminution that had been made in the public expenditure during that period. The expenditure for the last year consisted in the first instance of the debt, including the charge for interest upon Ex chequer-bills, part of which was not charged upon the consolidated fund, £28,225,591; of other charges £1,859,248, snaking a total charge on the consolidated fund of £30,085,239. The other por tion of the expenditure arose out of the sums voted fur supplies. The supplies, as he had already stated, for the year 1833, were £45,365,507. The supplies and estimates for the ensuing year had been already laid upon the table of the house, and he would just state what they were. The noble lord hero read the following statement of the estimated income and expenditure for the year ending April, 1834: ESTIMATED INCOME. Customs • • £16,769,621 Excise 16,29,131 Stamps Taxes • • 6;857,541 5,003,937 Post-office .. .. .. Miscellaneous • • .. 1,453,900 238,520 £46,852,650 45,365,507 Expenditure .. • • Estimated Surplus Income 1,487,143 ESTIMATED EXPENDITURE. Debt Other Charges .. £28,325,991 1,974,009 Consolidated Fund •.. • • .. £30,300,000 SUPPLIES.. Army .. .. • • .. .C 6,673,251 Navy .. .. .. 4,658,635 Ordnance .. • • .. •• 1,455;•2`23 Miscellaneous .. .. 1,835,110 £44,922;219 The house was aware of the views which he had always enter tained and expressed with regard to a surplus. He had stated them on many occasions; he had frequently stated his opinion, an opinion in which he hoped the house would concur, that it would be more desirabler to take off taxes, than to keep up a large amount of surplus, in order to pay off some portion or the debt. He had already stated the surplus for the ensuing year at £1,487,143 Now, with respect to reduction, he certainly thought, upon the principles upon which he had always acted, that with such a surplus in our hands a reduction of taxes might be effected (hear) ; but he was at the same time quite aware that the reduction of taxes which he should have to propose could not possibly be the same that he had heard gentlemen speak of in that house, and that he had heard mentioned as likely out of doors. He thought that a reduction of taxes to a far less extent would, if properly applied, be productive of some considerable relief to the country. Before he went further, he thought it necessary for him to apply himself to those taxes which had been proposed for reduction as pressing much upon the people of this country, and which he was afraid would be still likely to press much upon them, as he could not consent to their reduction. The first tax of that description to which he felt it necessary to allude was the tax upon malt. Its amount for the last year had been £4,825,128. A total reduction, there fore, of the malt-duty, without the substitution of some other tax in its place, would certainly be quite inconsistent with the state of the revenue. Looking, therefore, at this tax in a finan cial point of view, is appeared to be a tax that did not interfere with the consumption of the article, and looking. at it on the other hand, as it affected the . producer, it appeared that the producer was net deprived by it as far as- he (Lord Althorp) could ascertain, of a fair price for his commodity as compared with the prices of other grain. For these reasons he had arrived at a conclusion which might, no doubt, be a very unpopular one, (and certainly.the duties which a Chancellor of the. Exchequer had to perform on the subject of taxation were often calculated to expose him to much unpopularity), but he did think, looking at this tax in all the points of view that he had mentioned, that the malt-tax was one that ought not to be reduced.— The next tax to which he was about to allude was one, certainly, with regard to which lie entertained very great doubt, the stamp duties upon newspapers. With respect to that tax lie (Lord. Althorp) had already frequently stated his opinion. He thought it a bad tax. (Hear, hear.) He thought it a tax productive of much evil,, because he considered the effect of it to be unfor tunately to give a monopoly to persons who did not care about evading the law. It gave them a monopoly of cheap publica tions, by which means they were placed in the hands of very disreputable persons. The question, then; he took to be this, whether in the present distressed state of the conn/tY. the taking off a tax that produced £441,000 a year, and the taking off of which could not be urged as calculated to give immediate relief to any class in the community, was the best thing that could under existing circumstances be done.— ( Hear, hear.) He saw that his hon. friend opposite was taking notes on this occasion. He (Lord Althorp) did not mean to say that the repeal of this tax would not give relief to a certain ex tent, but generally. speaking it could not be called a tax the taking off of which would afford relief to the distress of the country.— He had certainly, in different discussions during the present session, intimated—it might have been imprudent on his part to have done so—but he had intimated what, indeed, was. his real intention at the time, namely, his intention to take off this tax, but subsequent consideration had made him doubt the pro pricty of doing so, and he wished to state the matter as he had dime, frankly and fairly to the house. (Hear.) Ile did not think that it would be necessary for him to apply himself to any other tax at the present part of this discussion. The first tax to which he wished to call the attention of the committee, and with a resolution for the reduction of which he should have to conClude, was one of very trifling amount—it was the tax upon tiles: The whole of that tax amounted to only £37,000 a year. The next tax to which he should wish to apply himself was one the whole amount received on which was not very large; at the same time, however, he was of opinion that a reduction . to ei certain extent of this tax would afford considerable relief. It was a tax respecting newspapers; it was the tax upon adver tisements. (Hear.) He believed that that tax, as it at present' stood, was extremely injurious to the interests of the trading community, and that considerable benefit would accrue t) the productive classes by its removal. At present, as the committee was aware, the duty was 3s. 6d. upon each advertisement, how:- ever often inserted. It was plain that such a tax as that must be attended by this consequence, that it must be a great check on the insertion of advertisements in the papers ; that it mutt, therefore, operate greatly to the injury of the diferent trading portions of the community, and that it would. be a very groat benefit to them were such a tax considerably reduced. (Hear.) He proposed to reduce the tax upon all adyertisementsesn their first insertion from 3s. fid. to 25.; on their second insertiew from 2s. to Is. 6c1., and on all future insertions to Is. '1 he com mittee would see that the effect of this. plan would be, that it would risk little, if any amount of revenue, while it would give the public and the trading portion of the community an encou ragement to repeat their advertisements, which they - did not now possess. He calculated the loss at one-half of the present amount of the duty. The whole annual revenue from advertisements at present amounted to £150,000. The next tax to which he should direct the attention of the committee was one which, when they were altering and reducing taxes, it was most desirable should be altered and reduced; he alluded to the tax-upon- maiiue. in surances. (Hear, hear.) He thought that without any large sacrifice of the revenue this tax might be altered and reduced such a manner as to give great accommodation to the shipping interest, and to the trade of the country generally. The ins , sent rate of duty on the coasting trade was Is. 3d. per cent., where the premium did not exceed 205., and 2s. 6d. per cent. where the premium exceeded 20s. Upon the foreign trade the duty was 2s 6d. per cent. where the premium did n o t exceed Ms, and ss. per cent. where the premium exceeded 20s. The nett amount of this tax, which he now proposed to alter and reduce, was .4-;2'20,000. In the year 1815 the gross amount of this W. (certainly from various causes it was large in that year) wag 1.:452,000, whereas, as ho had already stated; no reduction hav ing been made in the tax since, the gross amount of it now was only £220 ; 000. It must, he feared, be admitted, under such cir cuinstances, that the effect of this tax upon policies - of marine insurance had been to drive them entirely out of the country. (Hear, hear.) The proposition which he would have to make to the committee on this subject would be, as far as he had been able to ascertain, acceptable to the parties concerned. It had not been proposed by them to alter the tax upon the policies: upon the coasting trade. His . proposition therefore was; that upon the policies of insurance in the foreign trade the duty should for the future stand thus :—Premium not exceeding 155., Is. 64. duty; ditto, ditto 305., 2s. 6d.; ditto above 305., ss. Ile be= bored, from all he had heard, that this arrangernent . would . sa tisfy the parties concerned, though of course toey would be bet ter pleased if the duty were taken off altogether, but the reduc tion now proposed to be made would fall upon those policies of insurance which particularly required .reliel. He calculated the reduction of the revenue in this instance at £lOO,OOO. He pro posed this reduction with great pleasure, as he was sure it would be very beneficial to the shipping interest of the country, and because it would tend to relieve a portion of - the trade - era laboured under great distress. The next class of taxes to which he would advert was- the assessed taxes. (Hear.) _ Now with_ respect to those taxes,_ !the pressure that had -been made upon the house and upon his Majesty's goyernment was for the total repeal of the house and window taxes. The total repeal •Cf those taxes would amount to a reduction of revenue to the amount of £2,594,600. He confessed that, however he might wish to accommodate and relieYe the inhabitants of towns,, and the productive population there, he should not feel himself jus tilled in sacrificing the whole surplus revenue on the present occasion for that object. He had endeavoured- to- consider whether some mode might not be adopted by which the pro ductive classes amongst the town population might be relieved in some degree froniAlie pressure of this tax, while it should fall upon the other portion of the .population,—namely, those who did not belong to the productive classes. What he meant was this—whether some arrangement might not be made by which shopkeepers could be relieved from .this duty,, -while houses that had not shops attached to them should remain chargeable as at present. (Hear.) The committee was pro bably aware that according. to. the present law regarding the window tax, there was au allowance made by which three win dows were struck off from each house to. which no shop was attached. It was upon that principle he now proposed to pro ceed, for the purpose of affording relief to houses with shops attached to them. He did not mean to take off the duty on all the windows of a houst in which were a shop and store-rooms. Ile would let the relief be in proportion to the number of win -, dews go used. For instance, suppose a house had 15 windows, and 5 of them were the windows of shop or show-rooms, those 5 would not be charged; the house would be charged with only 10 windows. The same principle would be applied to the house duty. in such cases. Thus, where one-third of the. windows were not charged as belonging to the shop, there .should be a proportionate reduction of the house duty. By this means he hoped that, an effective relief would be given to the shop keepers. He estimated that the loss to the revenue hee these re ductions of house and window duties would be' £lOO,OOO. The committee was aware that great complaints had been made of the duty imposed on taxed carts ; this, in consequence of the changes made in the duty on carts last year, had fallen with severity on some which it had not been designed to affect. Now, to relieve these, he would propose that all carts which now paid a duty of 30s. should henceforward be duty free.— This, he estimated, would be a loss to the revenue of about £30,000. He also proposed to take off the tax now paid for shop men, warehousemen, cellarmen, and porters; this he estimated. at £45,000. He would also take off other taxes which pressed on persons engaged in- trade and agriculture. He would. in.the firfit instance remove the duty paid on commercial travellers or riders; this would amount to but a small sum—L-1,500. He would also reduce the tax on clerks, book-keepers, - .or office keepers, amounting in all to £55,001 He would likewise take off the duties on stewards, bailiffs, overseers, managers,. or clerks under them. This would amount to £9,5001. Making the whole reduction, under the head of assessed taxes, £244,000. The next reduction which he should propose was one to which he considered himself pledged, as at the time it was imposed he admitted that it was erroneous in principle; he alluded to, the duty imposed on raw cotton in 1831. NVheu ha proposed to take off the additional duty on raw cotton, he, must observe, that he did so, not from having observed any bad effects, as to consumption, from its existence ; but the committee should con sider how dangerous it was in principle to tax the raw material of an article in which we had to compete with foreigners in its sale in its manufactured state. The danger might be dormant, and not apparent until it was too late to apply the remedy. Foreign manufacturers were getting markets for their goods, and if they succeeded we should not be in time to remedy the evil. He would not put the raw cotton on a better footing than it was in 1831, before the additional duty was laid on. fie would take off that duty, and make the remaining duty fixed, instead of being "ad valorem." The duty before that was three-eighths of a penny per pound; he had added two-eighths, making the whole five-eighths. The amount of the whole was about. £626,000. He proposed to take off £300,000., or nearly the half; and as from what he had seen of its effects he did not calculate on any increased consumption from this reduction, he estimated the real loss to the revenue at the full sum of. £300,000., the duty being taken at a fixed instead of an "ad valorem," to which'he understood that no objection existed on the part of those concerned. Ile would now come to a tax on which it was roost desirable that a - reduction should take place—he meant the tax on the article of soap (hear, hear),—a. reduction on which would make a considerable return to the re venue. The amount of the duty on soap in the past year was £1,186,000. He would propose to reduce the duty to half. ( Hear.) That would make an apparent loss to the revenue of L 593,000, but he did not estimate the .actual loss at more than half that sum, or about £363,000. The difference between the nominal and the actual loss would be made up, first by the removal of the drawback hitherto allowed on the exportation of the article, which was about £lOO,OOO, and the rest by the increased con sumption, and by the cessation of the illicit manufacture. The' duty at-present was 28s. per cwt. The expense at which the illicit manufacturer could make it was 12s. per, cwt. He thus had an advantage of 16s . per cwt. By reducing the duty one half lie expected that the temptation to the illicit trader would he altogether removed, as it could scarcely be worth his while to undergo all the risk of engaging in the trade fur an advantage of only 2s. 4w cwt. 'faking this, with the increased consump tion and the-drawback; he did not exaggerate when he estimated that the loss to the revenue from the reduction of half the duty would not exceed £300,000. He had now stated all the items of taxation on which he proposed a reduction, and he had en deavoured to select those the diminution of which would afford the greatest relief to .the productive classes. (Here several. members rose and left the house.) He was aware that many gentlemen would feel displeased that the proposed reductions did not go to a greater extent, or that several other heads of taxation had not been included in the reductions; but he though I that none could deny that those which he•had selected. would afford a great relief to those classes who most required it ' _ _ Mr. O'CONNELL wished to know whether the reduction of the advertisement duty was to extend to Ireland ? The noble lord had proposed the reduction of the duties in England from 3s. to '2s., but in Ireland every advertisement paid 2s. 6d. Wet. that scale to continue? (Continued to pagc 313.) FINANCIAL STATEMENT. Lord ALTHORP, in reply to a question, said, that he hoped to be. able to make his financial statement to morrow: if the hon. member for Whitehaven (Mr. M. Attwood) would postpone his motion, which stood for to-morrow, till Monday, he should cer tainly bring it forward to-morrow. COLONIAL SLAVERY. Mr. STANLEY Said, that a motion, given by his noble friend (Lord Althorp), on a subject respecting which the feelings of the country were much excited, stood for Tuesday—he meant the motion respecting colonial slavery. Although it was most important that the views of his Majesty's government, with regard to that subject, should be stated to the country as early as possible, yet, under the circumstances under which the question came into his hands, he trusted he should not trespass too largely on the indulgence of the house if he asked to be allowed to postpone the motion from Tuesday next till Tuesday the 14th of May. (Hear.) TRIAL OF OFFENCES (IRELAND) BILL. Sir J. HoimousE moved that the house resolve itself into a committee on the Trial of Offences' (Ireland) bill. Mr. O'CosNEL4moved that this bill be committed to a se lect committee to report whether there was any necessity fur its introduction. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL maintained that the present bill was a mere extension to Ireland of that principle of the law of Scotland and England which the highest legal authorities had pronounced to be wholesome in practice and according to the spirit and usage of the constitution. The amendment was opposed by Sir J. Hobhouse, Mr. Stan ley, and the Solicitor-General, and was supported by Mr. O'Con nell and Mr. C. Fergusson, and others, and after a protracted discussion a division took place,— For the amendment 19 Against it B4 Majority _6s The further consideration of the bill was postponed on the suggestion of Mr. O'Connell, who objected to proceed with it at the late hour to which the discussion bad been protracted (one o'clock.) The Chairman in consequence reported progress, and the bill was ordered to be recommitted this day. The house having resumed, Mr. M. ATTWOOD said that he should feel it his duty to press his motion for a committee to inquire into the distress of the country, which, after having been postposed from day to day, had at length been fixed for this day. Mr. STANLEY hoped the hon. member would consent to post pone his motion until after the financial statement should be brought forward by his noble friend the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, which statement was fixed for this (lay. It was ex ceedingly desirable and, in fact, would be but just to all parties, not to introduce a discussion on the same evening, which would clash and interfere with a disclosure of such extreme impor tance. He therefore suggested to the hon. member the pro priety of deferring his motion until next Friday. Mr. ATTWOOD complained of the short notice which had been given of the production of the budget. He should persevere in his motion, because he believed that the inquiry of the commit tee on the distress of the country would materially influence the financial statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. STANLEY feared that if the budget were to be postponed until the result of the inquiry of the committee for which the hon. member intended to move were known, it would not make its appearance at all during the present session. Mr. ATTWOOD alleged that he had not been dealt fairly with by ministers, inasmuch as he was requested, in the course of that very afternoon; to postpone his motion, and the reasons as signed were different from those which really existed. 111 r. S. RICE pleaded guilty to this charge, but said that when he requested the hon. member to postpone his motion he was not aware of the intention of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer to bring forward his financial statement on the same day. It was intended to take a vote on the Ordnance esti mates. _ _ Some further conversation ensued, and Mr. Attwood ulti mately persevered in his intention to submit his motion to the house this day. Mr. W. Warburton brought up the report of the committee on the Jewish Civil Disabilities. The report was received, and a bill in pursuance of the reso lution ordered to be brought in. The other orders of the day were then disposed of. Adjourned at half-past 1 o'clock. FRIDAY. The Speaker took the chair at twelve o'clock. Mr. H. T. Hope took the oaths and his seat for the city of Gloucester. The house was occupied in receiving petitions until three o'clock, when the Speaker left the chair. The Speaker resumed the chair shortly . after 5 o'clock. Sir E. Wilmot brought in a bill for altering the law of larceny. —Read a first, and ordered to be read a second time. Mr. HUME moved for returns of all persons now entitled to, though.not receiving pensions, and of all persons in the receipt of pensions under the 57th Geo. 111., and the 6th Geo. IV., c. 9, together with the names of the parties, their length of ser vice, and the amount of pensions ; also the amount paid in each year, from the period of granting said pensions till. the present time_ Lord ALTHO.I{ P, before he proceeded to.move the order of the. day for going into a committee of ways and means, expressed his wish to know whether the hon. gentleman intended to pei severe in his motion, in accordance with what he had stated after he (Lord Althorp) had left the house last night. Mr. M. ATTWOOO said it would appear, from all he had heard on the subject, as if it would be impossible that his motion should be brought forward t&night without the greatest disad vantage and inconvenience being incurred (hear), and without exciting feelings that if he persevered, the motion would be cal culated to embarrass the Government. (Hear, hear.) . For the \,,purpose of at once freeing himself from an imputation ,which lie felt he did not deserve. _ _ _ Notice of Mr. A 7 rTWOoo's motion was discharged, and fixed for Monday. • On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the order of the day for