The Sun. — London, England, 1847-05-01 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Apra 30, The LORD CaatecaLLoa took his seat on the Vireel. utak at Five o'clock. MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS. Messengers from the Cemmoas brought up several Bills. POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. Lord STANLEY hoped the Government would give their attention to the system of rating under this Bill, for' he feared that the erect of the present clause would be to give the power to the tenant, when rated on a merely nett sum, of charging half poundage on the gross amount. These difficulties arose from their interfering between the landlord and tenant to establish separate interests, which he thought ought to be left alone. The Marquis of WESTMEATH said it was his in tention to move an amendment on this Bill. The object of it was to facilitate proceedings in the master's office. He had thrown out a proposal for the consideration of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, that he should prepare a clause to allow of viz-a voce evidence instead of by affidavit. After a desultory conversation the subject dropped. GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION. The Bishop of ORTORD presented a petition from Banbury, in Oxfordshire, in favour of the Government plan of education. POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. Lord DESART gave notice, that in Committee on this Bill, it was his intention to move some amendments on the second clause, relating to the power given to the poor-law guardians to hire or to build houses for the re ception of the able-bodied poor; and also regulating the relief to be afforded to such persons. REPRESENTATIVE PEERS OF SCOTLAND. The Earl of EGLINTON rose to move that a •flelect Committee be appointed to take into considera tion the existing laws and regulations which relate to the elections of the representative Peers of Scotland, to consider what steps should be talten to prevent persons from voting at such elections who are not entitled to do so, and to report upon the proceedings which took place at the election of Lord Gray, on the 17th of March last. He said he regretted that the duty had devolved upon him to bring this important subject before their Lordships ; and that it had not fallen into other hands. It might not be necessary to remind their Lordships that by the terms of the Act of Union sixteen was the number of representative Peers to be sent to the House of Lords, and to be elected out of the whole number of Scotch Peers. In 1703 certain proceedings took place, upon which were founded the following forms at any election of a representative Peer. The Peers of Scotland were assembled by proclamation. After the commission had been read by the Lord Clerk Registrar, the names on the union roll were called over, and all who answered voted and gave in their proxies. But it must be evident that the clerk had no means of testing claims, and therefore any vote tendered under a title on the union roll by a person, though he may have no right to do so, must be recorded. A resolution was passed, restrict ing the power to use proxies to the sons and grandsons of Peers bu: that was not sufficiently stringent. In lia3 o a Committee was appointed on the subject, and re solutions passed by it which were referred to a Commit tee of Privileges, but the subject dropped out of memory. He would not cite any instances of this abuse, nor go into the subject at any length, but would conclude by moving that a Select Committee be appointed to in quire into the laws and regulations relating to the elec tion of Scottish Peers for the House of Lords, and into the proceedings that took place on the election of Lord Grey on the 17th of March last. Lord BROUGHAM said that the gentleman to whose vote objection was taken had no means to esta blish his title unless it was called in question. He had no objection however, to the appointment ef the Com mittee. Lord CAMPBELL would take leave to add a single word to what had been already said on this subject. A case had come to his knowledge to prove the de fective state of the law which proved his position. An individual was told that he was entitled to a peearge and he immediately abandoned his habits of industry, and his family were brought to utter ruin. Another case had also come under his observation. The LORD CHANCELLOR then put the motion, which was agreed to ; and the Peers to comprise the Committee were nominated, and next Monday, at two o'clock, fixed for the meeting of the Committee. The Nlarquis of LANSDOWNE laid upon the table of the House various returns, by order of her Majesty. Several Bills were then forwarded a stage, and the House adjourned at twenty minutes past six o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. April 30. The SPEALER took the Chair at Four o'clock. LORDS' AMENDMENTS. The Lords' amendments to the Cheltenham Water works BUJ were agreed to. REPORTS. The reports on the folowing Bills were brought up and agreed to, and the Bills ordered to be engrossed: — Caledonian Railway (Branches from the Clydesdale Junction Railway to the Douglas and Lesmahagow, Mineral Fields and to Strathaven). Caledonian Railway (Branches to Wilontown, to Fauld house, and to Biggar and Broughton). Caledonian Railway (Extension of Motherwell Branch of Clydesdale Junction Railway, to Auchinheath Mineral Field, with Branches to the Wishaw, and Coltness Railway, Canderside and Hamilton). Herne Bay and Canterbury Junction Railway. South-Eastern Railway (Croydo -, and Bromley Branches). South-Eastern Railway (Maid:tone to Chart). South• Easter❑ Railway (Mid -Kent and Direct Tun- bridge). South-Eastern Railway (North Kant Line). South-Eastern Railway (Strood to Maidstone). Mr. R. HODGSON, on the bringing up the reports from the Committee on group No. 1, as to tbe South- Eistern Ralway Bilis, moved that the mintres of the Committee be printed with the reports.—Agreed to. On the motion of Mr. GREENE, it was ordered that the Leeds Waterworks (No. 2) Bill be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Priva'e Bills, who shall report, whether any other sanding orders apply to this Bilt than those which were proved to have been complied with before the Examiner upon the petition for leave to bring in the Leeds . .Vaterworks Bill ; and chat the Examiner have leave to sit and proceed upon Tuesday next. THIRD READINGS. The following Bills were read a third time and passed : London and South-Western Railway (Widening, &c.) Shrewsbury and Birmingham Railw - ay. IRISH DISTRESS. Mr. HAMILTON presented a petition from Dublin, signed by 4.976 persons against the measure adopted by the Government for supplying food to the distressed Irish. LUNATIC ASYLUMS. Mr. T. DUNCONIBE presented a petitio❑ from the Society for the Protection of Lunatics, praying for an alteration in the law relating to lunatic asylums. Mr. HUME presented a petition from a kirk session in Scotland, against clauses iu the Marriages Registra tion (Scotland) Bill. JUVENILE OFFENDERS BILL. Sir D. LE MARCHANT presented a petition from Worcester in favour of the Juvenile Offenders Bill. VESSELS OF WAR. Sir C. NAPIER gave notice that, on Monday neat, he would move for copies of the log-books of the Powerful, Rodney, Revenge, C,mbridge, Vanguard, and Gange., from the Ist to the 7th December, 1840. HUME gave notice that, on Monday, he would move for copies of reports of master-shipwrights on cer tain vessels. ADMINISTRATION OF PUBLIC JUSTICE. Mr. 13. ESCUTT said that he would wish to ask a question of the Right Honourable Gentleman the Secre tary for the Horne Department ; . it related to a para. graph which appeared in the Times newspaper, copied from the Hampshire Independent. It was stated that the late Recorder for Winchester had resigned previous to the Easter session, and that no recorder was appointed in his stead, in consequence of which the trials of the pri soners were postponed indefinitely. He had no know• ledge of the subject but that which he had gathered from the Times, and he was anxious to know whether a recorder had been appointed, and if not whether he had any means to remedy the injustice which must accrue by such delay? Sir GEORGE GREY said that he also had seen the paragraph alluekd to in the daily papers. The sessions commenced on Easter 'Alontlay, and the resignation was received at a late hour on the 31st of March; so that there VMS no time to appoint a successor. He had not been informed that any inc .nvenience had taken place; but he would make inquiry respecting the matter. FACTORY BILL. _ _ _ An Hot. MEmnEn said he would wish to ask the Secretary for the Home Department wheth.q. it was hi intention to introduce any amendments on the Factory Bill, as bad been suggested by the factory inspectors. The first of those suggestions was with reference the education of children and the granting of certificates; the second was with reference to the silk mills, and the third was the necessity of guarding the machinery in mill,. The Hon. Gentleman had said nothing respecting Act relating to the silk mills ; and with regard to the ?er two points he said that it was his intention tf, bring forward some Bill in the course of the present session. He sh thought s it extremely important that all three ppointsnt parties se eme d to loul)d be settled together ; and as all the question shoul,l7 agreed that a private settlement of Right Hon. Gentleman come to, lie was desirous.. that the tended to pursue. should state what course he in- Sir G. GREY said that withiad t regard to the t w o points of which the Hon. Member hale made m ent i on , b e had use had some communication w i t h parties who were p r i n cipally interested. With regard the ch ild ren i n print works, there:wdteto the ed ucat i on o f alteration way o f e ff ecting all that was desired without any With regard to the casing of machin a er t y"' of the law. culties had arisen wit h re g ard to it, and he did that it was advisable or necessary that the law rhould be altered in that respect. There were large vested in the inspccto re, and before any steps werePr)wta:ren* it would be advisable that their report should be re. ceived. THE POOR-LAW COMMISSIONERS. On the motion that the order of the day for the House going into Committee on the Railways, Piers, and Har bours (Ireland) Bill, be read, Mr. FERRAN') said that he was anxious to trespass on the attention of the House for a very few moments, in order to make one or two remarks upon the extraor dinary conduct of her Majesty's Government with regard to the new Poor-law Commissioners. It was sow nearly four months since the cammencement of the present session, and her Majesty's Government had not introduced into that house the new Poor-law which they informed the House they would in this session bring under its notice. On the 20th of August 1846, a Committee of that House reported, in the fol lowing language, their opinion as to the conduct of the Poor-law Commissioners :—They stated that, upon a i l eTiOW of the proceedings of the Poor-law Commis- LoNnori4r, SATTITTIDAV PVENIVer, MAY 1, P447. I ; sioners, with reference to the inquiry into the Andover Union, those proceedings appear to have been irregular and arbitrary, especially in respect to the dismissal of Mr. Day and Mr. Parker. It was now eight months since that report was laid upon the table of the House, and still the same Poor-law Commissioners remained in full power, inflicting the same cruelties on the poor of the country generally as those they inflicted upon the poor in the Andover Union. Her Majesty's Government had screened these Commissioners eight months, sod they were now attempting to screen them still further. The notice had been a long time on the paper of the House, and yet the Government had not introduced the Bill. It had been put on the list last night, when the Right Honourable Baronet knew that it could not be discussed It had also been postponed; till next Monday, when there were four or five other mo tions which had precedence. If the Government desired the Bill to go forward, why not have fixed it for Friday night, when there were no other motions on the paper? He wanted a pledge from the Government that they would fix a night of theirs for the discussion of the question, giving fair notice to the opponents of the New Poor-law to be present. Unless they did so, he weuld himself bring the conduct of the Poor-law Commissioners under the consideration of the House. Sir G. GREY said, that when he gave notice of his intention of introducing. the Bill he had no inten tion of taking the discussion on it then, 'but to make a statement of its provisions, and fix a night when the whole discussion could be taken. He had fully expected that time would have been allowed for the statement last night, but the lateness of the dis cussion which had arisen prevented him doing so. lie had postponed the Bill, therefore, till Monday next, the earliest Government day, in the hope that after the Factory Bill was disposed of there would be time enough for the statement which he had to make. After he had made his statement, and the Bill was in troduced, he would name a day for - the secJnd reading, when the discussion would be taken. precedent for others to follow. He believed that the more correct course would have been to go into Corn mittee, when it would have been his duty to make a statement as soon as the Speaker left the chair with re ference to this grant. He hoped that the House would agree to go at once into Corn mittee--(Hear, hear)—and then, in accordance with the torms which haq been established in that House, he should avail himself of that opportunity of making such a statement as the lion. and Learned Gentleman would be well able to answer. At present he declined saying anything farther until the House had resolved itself into Committce. The winery was then cleared for a division, when the House divided, and there appeared— _ For the aniendment l4 Against it Mujurity —lB9 The amendment was consequently negatived. On our re-admission to the gallery, we found Mr. HUIIE speaking, who said that the Hon. Gen tleman had stated that, in his opinion, it was wise to make this grant; in his (Mr. Hume's) opinion, it was not; but the proper time to make this amendment would have been when the motion was put from the Chair for going into Committee. But it should be recollected, that those who voted for going into Committee voted for giving money for making ruilroads.—(Cries of " No, no.") Yes, but he asserted that it was, for the House had decided upon going into Committee, and that Com mittee was for the purpose of giving money to rail roads—(Repeated cries of " No, ne")—and these who voted for going into Committee who did not vote for giving money to railroads, would have placed them selves in a state of stultification.—(Derisive cheers.) The House then went into Committee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that in bringing this matter before the House before they went further in the debate, he thought it would be necessary to make a statement of what the case actually was. It was true that he had made that statement the other night, but it was at so late an hour that it might not possibly have been quite understood. There were two distinct subjects on this question, yet though dis tinct of such a nature as to be connected with each other. The real question before the Committee was, as to whether the House she .uld grant specified sums to the Commissioners of Public Works to be expended in the formation of railroads in Ireland. At an early hour the other morning he had an opportunity of making a state ment on this subject, nut at any great length it was true, but sufficient to remove the apprehensions under which several Hon. Gentlemen laboured, with respect to the conduct and proceedings of Government. He be lieved the statement he mate was correct, as far as it related to the currency. He stated then, and he must state now, that the present depression was in no degree owing to the operation of the Banking Act; but it arose from other causes. Hon. Gentlemen must have observed from the public papers, that the state of the Bank had improved during the last week. On the 24th of April, the balance sheet of the Bank presented a considerable improvement over that of the 17th. It showed that the liabilities were diminished, while the means of meeting the liabilities had increased. They had, therefore, reason to be more satisfied of the groundlessness of the fears to which he had alluded there three days ago. He had bean in communication with the Governor of the Bank of England that morning, and was happy to say that its condition was very much improved—(Hear)—and from a feeling of this improvement the Bank of Eng land has been enabled within the last week, on two se parate (lays, to give increased facilities to the money market—(Hear, hear)—and he was happy also to be ( nabled to say, with respect to the statement made a few days ago, to the effect that the condition of the money market caused great distress in the north of England, that the condition of those portions of the north had been improved in consequence of those increased facilities.—(Hear. hear.) 11 appeared from the state ments which he had heard that more bank notes were circulated, and more bills discounted, than those imagined who entertained the misapprehension which he had contradicted ; and it appeared that even it the pressure had been greater than it was, it could have safely been borne.—(Cheers.) He would not allude to the increased price of stocks, as this might have been caused by circumstances, which could not have been foreseen—that was a circumstance on which no one could have calculated, and, therefore, he did not take it into ac count. Exchanges were improving, and the last news from America was of an important character. He thought it right to say thus much, in order that the apprehension that had been created might be removed.—(Hear.) lie would now turn to the plan of the Government, and at the outset he wished to correct a statement which had gone abroad, that the Government intended to raise an additional loan, for the purpose of making the advances they proposed. In reply to the Bill of the Noble Lord, he stated that the Government were about to take mea sures to relieve the distress in Ireland, by providing em ployment for the poor le, by employing them upon the relief works. He stated when he proposed these mea sures, that it was the desire of the Government to foster private enterprise in the employment of the people, and be stated that for this purpose two Bills would be intro duced, one of which had since received the sanction of the House ; it was called the Improvement of Landed Pro perty Bill, for the purposes of which 1,00,000/. was proposed to be advanced by the Government. For the other Bill, the reclamation of waste lands, they proposed to vote another 1,000,0001.. Now he stated further, when he proposed to take this loan of 8,000,0001., that a portion of that sum was to be applied for the advancement of these Bills, which would be afterwards repaid, and, therefore, that so much of the sum should be subtracted from the whole amount. Hav ing stated so much he was at a loss to understand upon what foundations it was urged that additional Exchequer Bills were about to be issued by him. In the course of discussion which had taken place on these two measures it was generally agreed that by far the most important of them, was that for the improvement of landed property in Ireland. So the sum increased from 1,000 0001. to 1,151,0001. But in the course of this discussion it was found that a very great difference of opinion existed respecting the advantages to be derived from the Waste Lands Bill, as it was originally proposed to be a compulsory mea• sure. After considerable deliberation, it was determined to aeandon the compulsory nature of the Bill, although, when they did so, they were aware that they were abandoning a great portion of the Bill. The measure for the reclamation of waste lands bad been found ex tremely difficult, and therefore the Government had thought it the best course to abandon the measure, as far as the present session was concerned. With regari to the relief works, he was happy to state that a great re duction had recently taken place in the expenditure, and the number of parties employed. In March last, there were 734,000 persons employed. Before the end of March they had been reduced 20 per cent. This left the number 579,000. A further reduction had since taken place, and by the Ist of Mey he expected that the num ber would be reduced to 280,000. Thus, while on the beginning of March the number was 734,000, there would be on the 3d of May 280,000. And while this great redo , den had taken place, he was happy to say that very little had been advanced to assist in the pay ment of wages in other respects than on these works. The accounts which had been just received from Ireland, showed that a much larger amount of land was sown than before ; and wheat, both spring as well green crop. And at the same time, in a great part of the south and the south-west of Ireland, the ordinary quantity of potatoes had already been planted.—(llear, hear.) Nay, not only was it found that there were plenty of potatoes foe the purposes of seed, but they were actually appearing in many places as an article of food. The relief-works, with some few exceptions, would in a short time be reduced; but the people would still be engaged on unfinished works or on important public works that would yet be found necessary to be constructed. With respect to that part of the country which bad been under the operation of the public works, he had to inform the House that many of the roads made, especially in the wilder parts of the country, were in the highest degree beneficial. That benefit also would be felt in a higher degree in the time coming, and the great line of railway to which they resolved to advance the larger portion of the loan was, as the House knew, ' the great trunk which united the west and south of , Ireland, and Dublin with Limerick and Cork. During the last year this company had applied to the Treasury for the loan of 500,0001. to complete their line, but the Treasury, in the then circumstances of the country, and at the rate of interest which was charged, did not feel itself justified in granting this application ; but convinced of the great importance of the line, they recommended that the Loan Commis sioners should advance 250,0001. The Great Southern and Western Company had not seen fit to accept that sum, and for that year, therefore, the matter was abandoned. On application being made to the Treasury, the Government desired the public works Loan Commissioners to decide upon the application, and they reported favourably of the securities offered by the company, anti stated that if they had the funds at their own disposal they would not have the slightest dejection to advance the money themselves. The Right Hen. Baronet then proceeded to read the re port of the Public Works Loan Commissioners upon the subject. The whole line is to be 200 miles in length, and of these 200 miles there are already 56 completed, the traffic upon the 56 miles being so great as to allow the ordinary per centage for the working of the line, and to pay a sufficient rate of interest in addition to afford an ample security for the whole advance.—(Hear, hear). The reason why the company made the first application was because the rate of interest in the money market was at the present so high. They had called up every call they were empowered to make by Act of Parliament, and some of the calls had even been paid in anticipation. They hoped by the assistance of the Government to be enabled to open the line to Limerick, to Melton, and to Cork, within two years. being a distance of abeet 115 miles. The whole sum to be advanced by the Government, and the calls to be paid up, would be expended in the earthworks of the line, and in the employ merit of labour by this means, or equal to double the amount advanced by the Government, would thus be expm ii :ed in labour in Ireland, it being expressly stipulated that for every 100,000/. advanced by the Government, 100.000/. would be raised by the company itself. The sum of 83.0001. vas also proposed for the Waterford and Kilkenny. Railway, and the sum of 36,000/. for the Dublin anti Drogheda Railway. In the last session of Parliament a sum of 50,0001. was voted for the purpose of promoting useful works in Ire land, on condition that those in Ireland who applied for an advance under the Bill would advance one-half—that is to say, a sum equal in amount to the sum which they required. At that time there were not any applications made under the terms of the Bill, but about three weeks agoP p part ear : 1. part a l p : P O sti::::::::.f:h b u e rp o o f s t e h of m greatest proi advantagength to na vigation the upper the p er o s f e . the n r S , a h a a n ti n c : n s i i a g n o , b y im p roveme nt large size to licat go io f n u :v t :s made for an advance from the sum The sum applied 10,000/., Th for r r up the Shannon than at present. out of a balance of 40,0001., not of the permitting wh st ic e h am , i e f r c s a O l' t to carry out that object was um orig . inane vote d; which hod 'not. as yet been iii spose of. They h:ei found that none of the works were so ad vantageous a; those which came under the head of fishery, piers, and harbours, for they not only employed the people, tut they directly increased the supply ot food. As nothing, therefore, in the nature of public works has been found so directly beneficial as the inotiey expended under this head, they proposed to give another advance for that put pose.—(Hear, hear.) They proposed to advance to the Upper Shannon improve ment 10,0001. There would then remain a sum of 40,000/. at the disposal of the House, and it was his opinion that one of the most desirable means of employine that money was in the encouragement of the fisheries in Ireland. The whole of this sum of 40 0001., it was now proposed sheuld be directed to the fisheries, piers, and harbours of Ireland. Such was the subject of the second resolution which he had to propose:—" That the Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury be authorised to direct advances to be made, out of the Consoadated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. to the Commis sioners for the issue of loans for public works and fisheries, &c., to an amount not exceeding 620,0001. in the whole, to be by them advanced towards defraying the expense of making the following railways in Ireland, viz.:—The Great Southern and Western Railway, the Waterford and Kilkenny Railway, and the Dublin and Drogheda Railway. And that a sum of 40,0001. should be divided for the purpose of promoting fisheries, piers, and harbours in Ireland." The resolution was then put from the chair. Mr. GOULBURN was surprised to hear the Chan cellor of the Exchequer state that it was the intention of the Government to withdraw the funds which had been voted for the purpose of reclaiming the waste lands of Ireland. He was happy to hear that the panic in the money market had subsided, anti that the Bank was now enabled to afford every necessary accommodation. Ile quite agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet, the Chancel lor of the Exchequer, that it was highly desirable that the Bank should act with prudence. lie thought that not only the Bank, but also the House was called upon to act with prudence. And it was because he thought so, that he telt it necessary to make a few remarks on the resolution submitted to the House, in order that the House might, by being forewarned, be. also forearmed.— (Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet had said that the sum of 625,0001., to be advanced to three railway companies in Ireland would be advanced out el the general fund raised by loan for the general relief of the distress of Ireland. He thought if such a course were to be adopted great inconvenience would result. There was nothing that the House should guard more against than an augmentation of the charges upon the Consolidated Fund, because the effect of those charges would be necessarily to lower the balances in the Ex chequer, and increase in the same proportion the amount of the quarterly deficiency bills ; and the Bank having to meet this increased demand upon it, would be unable to afford that assistance which was needed for the interests of the general trade and commerce of the country.— (Hear, hear.) There was also another point of diffi culty in making grants to these railways, which was, that having afforded assistance to these companies, how could the Government refuse similar assistance to others. These companies, it appeared, required to borrow 1,000,000/. of money, they would have to go into the market, and perhaps borrow it at the rate of 8 per cent., but the Government slipped in and said they would lend them half of that sum at 5 per cent.; the company were thus enabled to borrow its million at an average of 61 per cent., while a rival company, not having the assistance of the Government, would be compelled to pay the full 8 per cent. Besides, this company having succeeded in obtaining half of their money at 5 per cent., could afford to pay more than its rival company for the remaining halt, which they might require; and they would thereby obtain an undue and unfair udvantage over their com petitors. It appeared to him that great caution and prudence were necessary in measures of this kind, and unless great determination be shown by the Govern ment in refusing applicants for similar advances, the most serious evils would be certain to be the conse quence. He thought that, although the panic was over rated, and although it was true that the country was in a prosperous condition, yet he saw enough to induce him to call upon the Government to proceed with pru dence in future. The country was in a state, for which no antecedent period showed a parallel. One of the greatest calamities that ever happened, was now press ing upon the country, and not only on this country, but every other nation in Europe. Added to this, there was another matter which added to their difficul ties, and called npon theta for extraordinary caution. There was the railway system, which greatly affected the capital of the country, and locked it up in that in vestment which for a considerable period made no re turn. There could be no doubt that the capital of last year's railway had not yet affected the floating capital of the country so much as would be felt in future. The scarcity of food, also increased the necessity of import, and greatly aggravated the difficulties under which the country was labouring. There war, besides, the defi ciency- of the cotton crop, which should be added to the pressure from other sources on the energies of the country. It was, therefore, upon all these considerations, that he was induced to call upon the Government to proceed with great caution in dealing with the monetary affairs of the country. Already a large amount of money had been advanced to Ireland, and if he might calculate on the future, the money which had been ad vanced would be insnfficient to meet the exigencies of the case. The expenses of the country were increased. In January last, there was a balance in the Exchequer of nine millions; and now, in April, there were but five; and if this balance was to go on decreasing it would be necessary for the Government to draw upon the Bank, and so disable it from applying its capital to the accom modation of the commerce and trade of the country. Ho wished to explain that in pointing out these dangers his .l jest was not to embaracs the Government, but to in culcate the necessity of timely prudence and the utmost caution.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. F. FRENCH saw no reason why money should not be given to other railways, as well as the three which had been selected, provided sufficient security was given for the loan. According to the Right on. Gentleman, there would not be more than 280,000 men employed on the public works in Ireland after the Ist May. With respect to the works on which the men had been em ployed, he understood it would take 3i millions to complete them. He denied the statement which had been made, that private labour absorbed those labourers who were dismissed from the public works. The middle class in Ireland were rapidly leaving the country, for the gentry were unable to give them employment. Ile would like to know if the expenses of the pesti lence which was now raging in Ireland, was included in the 8,000,000/. which had been stated as the money to be advanced ? The lion. Gentleman then read a number of extract=, setting forth the great increase of fever in Ireland. In Sligo fever had extended to the main streets, and it had committed the most creadful ravages in Fermanagh, Waterford, Dungarvat, Armagh, and Cork, where thirty-six bodies had been buried in one grave, and 320 coffins had been sold for the poor, in St. Nicholas parish, in a few days ; one hospital w as fill e d cons t an tly, four persons with surgeons certificates having been obliged to be left at the door, and more presented themselves for admission in the morning. Ile hoped, however, that the money proposed to be advanced would not form a part of the loan of 8,000,0001. Mr. M. GORE was strongly in favour of the measure. Ireland had got mineral resources, which only required the aid of capital to develops, and as private interference had been discouraged, it was the bounden duty of the State to step forward and to afford a stimulus to the employment of the unemployed in profitable labour like railways. In England they had voted money for the draining of the fens, and it was but right that such assistance should be extended to Ireland when so much 1 good would be accomplished by so doing. Ireland was a great expense to this country. For instance, the keeping up of a large staff of soldiers and police, but what a vast sum of money would be saved it troops could be removed from place to place by railway. Ile quoted the opinion of the Governor-General of India, to show that in India 60,0001 a year would be saved if troops could be conveyed by railway in India; and if this was praPticable in India, how much res more so to the would it be in Ireland.—(llear, hear.) With pect argument that agricultural districts would not defray the expence of constructing lines, he instanced the South ampton and Peterborough Railway, which traversed a purely agricultural district, as profitable speculati n. lie also quoted the opinion of Mr. Pete, the large con , tractor, who had had great experience in the construction of railways, not only in this country, but in France and Belgium, to show that agricultural railways invariably turned out profitable ; and it was, therefore, not too much to expect that the resources of Ireland would be developed by railways in like manner. They would tend also to increase and render more valuable the excellent fisheries of Ireland. The lion. Gentleman read an extract from a work by Mr. Maccullech. o show that fisheries were materially improved by railways; and also one of the letters of Mr. Foster, the Times Commissioner, in favour of the construction of piers and harbours for the promotion ot fisheries. They would enable men to go easily out to sea, and, therefore, he thought they would do better by spending money in giving them those facilities, instead of spending money in feeding them in idleness, or at unprofitable tasks.— (Hear, hear.) Dr. Rush, the clergyman of Caddar, in the eeighbourhooi of Galway, strongly urger, in a letter, the censtruttion of piers and harbours, and the construction of caring stations. The Government de served the greatest praise fer the proposed construction of those curing starions. Dr. Rush, by the aid of some benevolent persons, had been enabled to send several men out to sea, and the fish they had taken was worth 800/., and it was eagerly bought up by persons about the place.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore, it could not be said that the Irish were wanting in energy, and were afraid to brave the elements in order to obtain their living by severe toil.—(Hear, hear.) They only stood in need of the mesas to enable them to work for their living. And there was nothing in the condition of Ireland which was worse than other countries at a tortrier period. For instance, Scotland and Wale:, had been at former periods in a most listressed state, so m uch so t:lat both I l i rt(e,l Spencera n ) n d d s w p p r r a i us , op e go r f t y (rpoi w iiiil e i o r a e n p wi n l aacnieticils of fd n av,3 7; s n et t i i i r a i kt u nteat jeopardy. lios of it was unfortunate that such a lengthened period should have elapsed with a better and wiser system having heen adopted. He looked however on the present measures as a step in the right direction, and it was for this, and the other reasons which he had urged, that he would vote for the measure of her Majesty's Govern inept. He honed to see the day when Ireland would be a blessing and a safeguard to England, and when they should reap a rich harvest for the steps which they were then about to take. Mr. W. COLLETT said that he did not regret not having been able ;o address the House upon the previous occasion, when tte House entered . into a discussion on he principles of the Bill, as his Noble Friend, the Member for Linn, had fully argued the question, and left nothing further to be Advanced. The principal objection which was then urged 'against his Noble Friend, was the impossibility of securing the money to be lent; that, however, had been admitted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as easy of accomplishment; here, then, was the principal, and almost the only argument which was strongly urged lagainstlit annihilated. It had also been admitted that t'.e Exchequer Loan Commissioners could lend a sum of 20,0001., this had been denied on the former occasion. The Hon. Gentleman concluded, by saying he would support the Bill. Mr. CAYLEY, believing that the present was a statesmanlike measure, he could not withhold his sup port from the Government measure. Fr - an the turn which the debate had taken, it appeared to him the com mercial state of the country was the real question which they were now debating, and whether the bank charter of 1844 had really answered its purpose—that purpose was threefold—first, that the Bank should maintain its credit untainted ; secondly, that its stability should be ensured ; and thirdly, that the country should not be exposed to this monetary fluctuation, which of late had occasioned so much alarm. He asked the country what had been the state of the banking department of the Bank of England. He feared that it was nut in so flourishing a state as it was thought. Ruinous fluctuations took place in trade, and in: tend of improving, the banking department became worse. No doubt the framers of the Act would be very glad to throw aspersions upon the Bank of England, and he con fessed that he thought his Right Hen. Friend had not dealt fairly with them on the subject. His Right Hon. Friend said that the alarm which was felt in the country was unnecessary, and that there was plenty of money in the country. Eli thought that the causes of the depres sion which existed in the country had not 'oeen fairly appreciated. The country had seen at a critical moment ' that the Bank was compelled to go into the market to supply the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and they naturally became alarmed at the circumstance. Immediately succeeding that, when the Bank refused all discount, was not that sufficient to create alarm? What was the consequence? Every body who had a note determined to keep that note. Out of what was the four millions which had been taken, supplied? Was it out of the notes of the public or the notes of' reserve ? It was evident, that if the till of the Bank was supplied out of the notes of reserve, that the reserve itself must be shaken. The Bank never before refused discount, and was not that sufficient to shake the confidence of the mercantile interest in the country? and that he believed to be the cause of the panic which had existed. If there were, as it was said, fourteen millions in reserve in the Bank of England, and only seven or eight millions in circulation, was it not a bad system which, by keeping so much money idle should chec - k the individual operations of the country. His Right Hon. Friend blamed the Bank for this. Was it only upon the Bank that this evil should be charged ? The system was one which, like Midas, in the midst of gold, produced starvation. With every deference to his Right Hon: Friend's superior information, it appeared to him that the Bank was not to blame, but that it had skilfully managed most difficult and complicated machi nery. In August 1846, the Bank had a maximum of bullion, and according to his Right Hon. Friend, the Bank ought to have lowered the rate of Discount. The Bank did so, and pushed out 21,000.6001., but in strict accordance with the system professed . by his Right Hon. Friend, it ought to have pushed out 26,000,000/. The Bank did not do so, and acted most wisely in not going to that extent in sending out its money through the country. It had gone as far as it could in prudence with the system, but it exercised a very wise discretion in not going too far. What was the condi tion of the Bank of F ranee, the state of trade at the time, and the state of the people ? The Bank, in all probability, prevented a very serious evil at the time. The question which they had to discuss was, which was right ? The Bank or the system. If the Bank had in 1846 pushed out more notes, the state of the country, instead of being sound at present, would have been the very reverse. In the spring of this year, when the sys tem called for the Bank to apply the screw, the Bank acted upon a contrary principle, and again proved that its discretion was more to be trusted to than the system which was to be pursued under the Act, He thought, after all these examples, that it was but fair to infer that it was the system which had failed, and not the Bank. In the present depression of all trade in the City—when East India Bills were, in some instances, undiscountable—or only discountable at 16 per cent., when the ordinary bills of commerce were virtually not to be discounted, arid when all credit was suspended, the effects of this sound system were found, out, and if such were the effects of this sound system he could only say that the sooner they returned to the old and unsound system the better.—(Cheers.) After a few words from Mr. CHAPLIN, in support of the measure, Sir W. CLAY said that his Right Hon. Friend had stated that in September last the Bank ought to have pushed out its notes, and reduced its discount to two per cent. That would have been bad banking to force out money, and thus encourage careless speculation. His Right Hon. Friend had, however, defended the conduct of the Bank during the present year, when there was a drain of money and bullion, the Bank had not increased its rate of discount, so that as far as his Right Honourable Friend's defence of the Bank went it was of no value. In the year 1846 the imports were very great; showing , a considerable excess over the importation of 1845. As ' far as the Custom House could afford any guide to the amount, the imports in 1845 were about 20,000,0001.; while in 1846 they were 21,840,000/. The same was observable in the importation of the raw material of our manufac tures in the same year; fur while articles of food had greatly increased, the articles of raw material had di minished. This year again, there would be a very large excess of imports, although, no doubt, that ultimately orders would come for goods, and the exports would be equalised to the imports. Still, in the mean time the exchange must be balanced by specie. No other plan of meeting the difficulty would suffice. Neither a pure gold currency nor an issue of notes would have avoided the rise of prices and the state of things to which he had referred. Notwithstanding al that had been said about the measure of 1844, he was persuaded, had it not been passed this country would not have been so well able to meet the crisis as it was, and when it came it would have lasted much longer. He maintained the soundness of the measure of 1819, the object of which was simply to provide for the convertibility of paper into gold at any time when it might be required. He believed that the Bill of 1844, which regulated the issues of paper in pro portion to the gold held by the banks, had induced a more healthy system of banking and business, and the country was in a far better condition in many respects than it would otherwise have been. The operation of this measure ought not to be charged with the present state of the money market, but rather they should attri bute the crisis to the great imports of provisions which had taken place in the last two years, and the extensive application of the wealth of the country to the purpose of railway construction. He believed that they would with caution get out of their present difficulty, though he did not expect for a long time that they would be able to procure money at such a low interest as it had been obtained for some time past. He had been anxious thus far to trespass on the House to state his views of the real cause ,f the present state of their monetary system. Mr. ROEBUCK said the proposition they had before them, was to grant a sum of 620.000/. for the construc tion of Irish railways. Several Hon. Members had spoken on the currency and the state of trade, but no one seemed to enter into the real question before the House. The Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets had made an excellent speech on the state of the money market, and the causes which had led to it, and here was the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of th u e , Exchequer, proposing to aggravate the evil, further derange the monetary ma rket by advancing and van andcig c n this large sum ot money. It was a course unjust, not only to the p eo p le of this w coUntry p , but the o ther parties in Ireland , who were not to participate the grant. He had certainly been much surprised at the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for the University of Cambridge, who, while he had spoken decidedly against the appropriation of the money, still meant to vote for it. He was desirous, however, that it should be taken out of the eight millions already voted for Ireland. Now, when the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed that 620,0001. should be deducted from the eight millions that were originally , voted for the relief of the people of Ireland, he should like to know what were the different circum stances in the state of that country, and in the intensity of the distress, that warrantee film wahlus aest diversion. But supposing the Right Hon. Baronet spoke in this way. (The Hon. Member for Bath here read a long extract from the speech of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer on proposing the grant of eight millions for the relief of distress in Ireland.) Ho believed that there was nothing to justify the princi pl,3 laid down in the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman, as they did not know what the harvest might bring forth, he thought it was sacrificing all that was just and right and honourable to a false expediency to accede to this proposition. He felt himself called upon to divide the Committee upon this question, for he did not think that which had been hardly won by the intelligence, and by the sweat of the Englishman's brow, should be frittered away in this idle and unthinking manner. Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said that he fully sympathised in the difficult and embarrassing circumstances in which the Government were placed. Something, he thought, was wanting in grasp of thought, but no one would deny that,the measures of the Ministry were founded on good intentions, however de ficient they might be in wisdom. The poor-law bad been passed as a measure calculated to improve the social condition of Ireland. But what were the other measures that were required to carry that previous mea sure into effect ? Was this 620,0001. to be the maximum of assistance that was to be given to that unhappy coun try ? But it was said that 1,500,0001. had been voted to improve the lands of Ireland. True, one million and a half was given to the Irish landlords, Mr. F. FRENCH—Not given, lent. Mr. B. OSBORNE.—The lion. Member need not betray such extreme susceptibility.—(Laughter.) This money then was given —no, lent—(Laughter)—to the landlords of the country, for the improvement of land and the employment of agricultural labourers. Why the improvement of land necessarily led to the discou ragement of labour.—(No, nu.) Would any one deny that whereas, there were only four or five labourers em ployed on each hundred acres ot well cultivated land in England or Scotland, they in Ireland employed some times four or five times that number. He doubted much that the Right Hon. the Chauceller of the Exchequer was no farmer. He told the House that thatth erethwe green was an abundance of potatoes in the ecountry, and g were no t more plen crops were laid down. If enveroel the country would be in a he tiful than potatoes, deplorable state ; the finance said that the green crops were on the ground. Why, the period for sowing turnips Was in June. They were rated for the soup kitchens, and as he had received, perhaps, one of the first copies of that he should favour s op House with it. The soup. rate, RAILWAYS, PIERS, AND HARBOURS (IRE- • . LAND) BILL. On the motion that the order of the day for the House going into Committee on the Railways, Harbours, Piers, &c. (Ireland) Bill being read, Mr. ROEBUCK rose reluctantly to call the attention of the House while he stated the reasons why he was about to propose an amendment to the proposition of the Government. The subject was now fairly before them, and he would state the grounds why he objected. What was it the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Ex chequer proposed to them to do ? He asked them to go into Committee of Supply, for the purpose of doing that, which in the early part of the session, he and those who voted with him told the House, in the strongest manner, wa- in the highest degree inimical to the interests of the country. He would feel it necessary to reed to the House some of the words of the Right Honourable Baronet, although it was not his habit to have recourse to this mode of argu ment. Now he wished to call the attention of the House to the circumstances connected with this question of railways in Ireland. It might be in the recollection of every one in that House, that in the com mencement of the session the Noble Lord opposite (Lord G. Bentinek) introduced into the House a measure f,r the purpose of establishing railways in Ireland. Now, at that time the situation of the country was different to whet it was at the present time. Then there was no great pressure in the money market; the commerce of the country was in as flourishing a state as it was usually in at that period of the year. The Noble Lord's Bill, after embracing a general view of the state of the country, proposed to ask from this country a loan of 16,000,0001. ; but he pro posed to ask this at different times, and the sum—if he recollected rightly—which was proposed to be raised in the first year was 4,000,0001. Now at that time the description which he (Mr. Roe buck) had given of the state of the country was correct. There might be no great prosperity, but there was no alarm, and there would have been no difficulty in raising the sum required by the Noble Lord. Now, at that time what was the language used by the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer? After the enormous sums of money which had been lately granted to Ireland, the Right Hon. Gentleman came down and asked the House to grant a sum of 620,0001. for the purpose of assisting railways in Ireland. But let them look at the language of the Right lion. Gentleman! Mr. Roebuck had opened the book, when he was inter rupted by The SPEAKER, who intimated that the Hon. Member could not quote from a speech made on the debate on the present measure. Mr. ROEBUCK did not wish to quote anything that was not pertinent to the present question, and if he was desirous of giving the words, it was only from the fear that his memory might not serve to give the precise mean ing of the Right Hon. Gentleman, whose opinions he was desirous of giving to the House, for to misrepresent him formed no part of his iatentiun. Now, he thought that an argument might be used of this nature, and one which was particularly applicable to the present question— (Such was the import of the Right Hon. Gentleman's expressions)—that, although the sum of four millions only was demanded at present. yet eventually the sum of 16,000,000/. would be required, and that the plan would impose upon the Government a task which he, in his character of Chancellor of the Exchequer, could cot undertake. The expressions of the Noble Lord at the head of the Treasury were precisely to the same effect. He said, further, that if the railroads were in such a ' state of prosperity as the Noble Lord had asserted them to be in that country—and he instanced the Great Western Railway of Ireland—they did not need that as sistance for which he sought, and they should not give the money. Both the Right Hon. Gentleman and the Noble Lord went further than this, for they said that if they went into the market to borrow the money, they would go unfairly armed, and affirmed that even if the plan was to be adopted it would not give that amount of employment which the Noble Lord the Mem ber for Lynn affirmed that it would give. For this they cited the words of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, and, if he recollected right, the Right Hon. Baronet the late Secretary fur the Home Depart ment had also stated that such would be the case. They ;rounded their objection chiefly on the extent of the measure which the Noble Lord had brought forward, but for his part, in his opinion, that was the best recom mendation of the plan. He did not say that it was a wise plan ; but it was at least a bold and a comprehen sive plan—one calculated to give extensive employ ment to the poor population of Ireland. Since the Noble Lord's proposal was before the House, change in a most important and vital particular was pro duced—some people contended—by the Government themselves. At the time the Noble Lord made his proposal there was no alarm in the money market. It was only apprehended. But what was the situation of the commercial interest at the time this measure is brought forward? Was it not notorious that the Noble Lord at the head of the Go• vernment was daily in communication with the great commercial interests of Liverpool, Glasgow, and Lon• don ? Had not every means been taken so restore con fidence, but without success ? Were net the best possible bills the mercantile world could produce of no avail on account of enormous discounts charged for cash ? And yet, in this deplorable state of things the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was about to throw another anditional burden upon the Bank, and by what arguments was this proposal supported? Why, by precisely the same as those by which the Noble Lord had successfully resisted a similar proposal a few weeks ago. There was nothing in this measure to distinguish it from the one introduced by the Noble Lord a short time ago, except the greater danger which they would now incur in carrying out its principles ; and then, again, these companies would be unable to borrow money at a rate of interest which they would be able to pay. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer opposed the measure of the Noble Lord, on the ground that the Government should not become money-lenders. But were not the circumstances now the same as they were at the time that measure w©s introduced ? And what a flaming sword was wielded against it by the Hon. Gentleman, who said that it would not employ the weak and disabled. but the able-bodied. He said, "We want relief for the poor and the aged, for women and children, as well as for the able-bodied." Those were the parties, he said, whom they could not benefit by such means as those which the Noble Lord sought. It was also urged by everybody who spoke on the same side as he (Mr. Roebuck) did, that the state of the country at the time could not have been assisted by such a pro position. The Government said they had left nothing undone to provide employment far the indigent poor ; but, entertaining that argument, how could they now come forward with this extraordinary measure ? Was there ever so pitiful an attempt ? lie could not call it an endeavour, for no phra ,- e in the English la , guag could supple him with a word which cool I express his feelings, without tr , spassine on the courtesies of the House, an t which would ad quately enable him to describe the plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman The Government proposed to lend 620,0001. to Ireland, after they le,cl ex pended something like 10,000,0001., and when they had already deraßged, not only the social condition of Ireland, but the social atiermonetary system of England, oy their unwise proceedings. But be assured the people would not any longer suffer such proceedings. When they saw hundreds of persons swept away, families destoyed, situations well and honourablyfilled up annthilated,and the whole mercantile world in a commotion, and, in the words of a French orator, with " hideous bankruptcy knocking at their doors," were they to see the Chancellor of the Exchequer come to the House with a smiling face again to demand money —money?—(dear.); It might be a pitiful sum compared with their previous lavish expen diture, but the people would not bear it. lie appealed to every gentleman in the House —if they wished to consult consistency, which was not a matter of much importance, it would seem, at the present period—to . a d es a e. y i nbete ttlhie,lßrilelata) support him carrying im haer i , n , i his . preset amendment. He would ask the Hoe. Members who voted in the majority the Noble Lord opposite to join him —that the other orders of the th ; if they did so, and if they obtained a htii:tiegwilitt it would hear no more of this h the people of England w t o t F o ld ui read a lesson to her M nh a tio - tt cellar t o )efiacran)tTlhieheinfetClthtan dafltoeok rather angry, that brought down, ev f en an appeal jesty's Ministers ; they schemes like these were day founded on no principle, and wi r tlat 'y to the country, placed upon the ta:>lte rather to occupy their time than anythino the H.ouse, would move that the other orders of the g dal Ile 9 .7 be no w read.—(Hear, hear.) ' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he would not dispute the abstract right of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to take the course which he had thought proper to take u p on the present occasion, but he believed it to be an irregular one, and one which would in future set a bad rate then in : the union of Clonmel, for three months, was estimated at 8,340/., and it would yield, if paid, 8,9751. In adopting that calcuietion for the rating of all the unions, he found that tee gross amount would be 4,752,0001. This was to be raised fee. soup kitchens. What would the poor-law come to ? Ave riseing the rate a' 4s. 61. in the pound, the !teal cast iif %eat •tieor :lief n 111 U ' amount to 7,000,0001. Seven imilesns er melte).- I Why. it atneunteit to the whole gross rental oi Ira land. 'They had arrived at this state of things that the measure would be impracticable in itself, unless rendered effec five by other large and cernareher,ive measures. Did the Government think that these 620,000/. :veal !atisorli the surplus labour of Ireland ? Or did they think thst Irish Members would rest satisfied with it ?—(Laughter and cheers.) It was a lamentable proof of the state of feeling in that House, that when Irish gentlemen rose to place the distressed condition of their country before ! the House, they were met by invidious cheering ; 620,0001. were to be granted to the Great Southern and Western Railway. He was not in any way connected with that, company, but he was assured that this mode of laying out their money would be productive of the best results. He would just read to the House the weekly return of traffic made up to the last week. The House would remember that the line was only corn- pleted for fifty-six miles and a-half of its length, aid that in its route it embraced no commercial tewns, or any manufacturing district., for as yet it only connected Dublin and Carlow. He found, however, that the traffic for the last week was 1,588/. He regretted that when the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn brought torwerd his railway measure in the early part of the session, that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government al lowed party pride to influence him in his opposition to it. The whole remedy seemed to amount to this, and it was feared that the whole of the tenaat fanners were likely to be eaten up, and the process seemed to be very likely to be semi finished—(Laughter)—and to some it appeared that this was a circumstance devoutly to be wished.— (Hear, hear.) But what would become of the country when it was overloaded with this Government debt. As he understood, there was a rate now to be collected of a pound in the pound, and he had heard from an authority on which he could depend, but whose name he was un willing to mention, that a rate of 13s. in the pound had been levied, when a rate of tenpence could not be col lected—(cleer, hear.) Why, what man with a good ac count at his banker's, would ever think of drawing out his resources for the sake of purchasing Irish property. For his own part, he thought that there would be very few. He had never been a party, either in the House or out of it, to the cry against the present Government, or to swelling the clamour on the other side of the water, and unwilling as he was to connect himself with any party in the State, he would give his earnest support to the Noble Lord, if the Government were willing to look this Irish difficulty in the face. He would honestly and heartily render his support. The country had hitherto been governed by the Protestant Irish aristo cracy, but that system could no longer be supported, and they must turn to the democracy if they wished to im prove it. For his own part, he believed that the only re medy was to be found in a separate legislation. although he was one of the last to say that Ireland could exist without the assistance of England, for, unless that as sistance was held out, he believed that Ireland might as well be sunk to the bottom of the sea. But yet, although he was no advocate for the severance of the countries, the only remedy, in his opinion, was in the institution of a domestic legislation.—(Cheers.) Mr. SPOONER regretted that the Hon. Member who had just sat down, had started with the assurance that he would keep to the point, when he had spoken upon every subject hut the one which was immediately before the House. The Hon. Gentleman had complained that the whole of the present pressure was owing to the course which the Batik of England had pursued in the manage ment of their capital, and great reference had been made to the loan of the 8,000,0001., as if that had been any particular element in the suffering which had been en dured of late by all the commercial classes. But what was the case ? Why, the Batik, in the granting of their last charter, had been expressly charged to keep to their banking business, and were told that the issues could only be made in a particular manner. On this point they were expressly restricted. Well, they had keet to their banking business, they had not attempted to inter fere with the circulation. The two departments were entirely separate, and in his opinion the directors had acted wisely. They had not overstepped the terms of their charter, and they found that they had an abund ance of money in their coffers, and they had not hesitated to cash the good commercial paper which was proffered for their acceptance. They had conferred a great 'meek on the whole of the community, and had only acted as every other banker would have done. But gold went out of the country, and the specie in the hands of the Bank was reduced. The pressure ensued, but with that the Bank had nothing to do ; but now, when the exchanges were in our favour, when the balance of trade had turned, then there was a great outcry raised respecting the conduct of the Bank. Let them look to the balance of trade, and they would see that although so much gold had gone out of the country, the influx et corn now would have to be paid for in goods.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had alluded to the conduct of the Emperor of Russia, who, according to common re port, had bought 2,000,0001. in the British funds, and he had represented it as an act of great magnanimity on his part, asserting that it was likely to improve the state of the British funds. The Emperor of Russia had' just in the same way come to the assistance of the Bank of France. But was that an act of magnanimity ? They all knew his character, and that ambition formed a striking feature in it, and must therefore be assured that some other object than,that of merely assisting the Bank of England had actuated him, even if this remark were true. He would not insinuate improper motives to that foreign power, but the Emperor of Russia might have an inte rest in securing the subserviency of France or of Prussia, through the medium of his great despotic influence ; not so much with a view of attaining any great advantage in either of these two countries, as to gain him some in fluence over England. The Emperor of Russia, it was quite evident, could never hope to obtain any influence in this country through his great military On ces ; but he might do so by manceuvering with the finances of Europe ; and it was evident from the Emperor's recent acts, that his policy was directed to the at tainment of that end. The Act of 1819 and 1844 must be got rid of before this country could prosper, or avert such an evil as the one he had just ventured to suggest. Already they were witnessing some of the bad effects of those measures, and unless the House took some precautionary so ps to avert it, the y would inflict a still severer blow upen the country. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, it. was true, had supported those measures with a good deal of plausibility, and had asked them for a definition of the term pound, and used other specious arguments to in duce the House to pass his Currency Brills, but still he (Mr. Spooner) wanted to know if the House was pre pared to continue a system which had always led, by easy and regular steps, to periodical depression in th e money and commercial interest of the country. Sir R. PEEL—WeII, what is a pound ?—(Hear and laughter.) Mr. SPOONER said, short though his experience had been in that House, he had seen and heard enough to convince him that the Right Hon. Baronet was too great an adept, and ready at debating in that House, to render it an easy task for an Hon. Member, like himself, t( grapple with him in a discussion of this sort. ; but. he ) Pitt begged to ask the Right Hon. Baron e t where Mr. would have been when he came down to that e House t ),3„_ d for their support during the by if h war, allowedhad himself to be put down parties who who called upon him for a definition of_ the term pound.andlaughter.) bte.) Well, r no w, what was a pound ?—(Hear, hear, What was a pound at the time of the Reformation.— (Hear, arid laughter.) Hon. Members might laugh, but lie would tell them that the country could not long sustain such panics as those they were now witnessing, without, indeed, the whole frame-work of society were suffered seriously to be disturbed, if not entirely broken up.—(Hear, hear.) But the Right Honour able Gentleman had asked him what was a pound ? He could not answer that question directly, but he would tell the Right Hon. Baronet that the pound of the present day greatly exceeded in value the pound which existed at the time the 800,000,000/. of national _debt was contracted.—(Hear, hear) He therefore warned the House, in the words of the late Sir R. Peel, that if they persisted in continuing the present monetary policy of the country, they would eventually bring ruin and destruction upon the nation.—(Hear, hear.) He never thought that the state of the currency prior to tt., year 1819 was at all in a state of perfec believed that the operation of the measure of 1844 would prove a serious evil. There were at present many mer cantile houses in this country which were obliged to re fuse a great number of their orders, because they did not know that they would be able to obtain gold for the payment of the labourers. The consequence of the mea sure would be, that they would keep the gold in the country, but they would starve the people. Mr. MUNTZ would support the measure of the Go vernment upon the same ground as he would have sup ported the measure of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord G. Bentinck), the only objection he had to the grant was, that it was not large enough. It was said that the finances of the country were in a bad state. Why, it was the fault of the Government that the finances were in that condition. He believed that the Right Hon. Baronet did perfectly right in bringing forward his measure of 1844; it was based upon a per fectly sound principle, and it was the fault of the Go vernment that when assistance was required for Ireland they were to be met with an objection respecting the finances of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL was glad to see that this proposition had obtained so large a share of support, and he thought if the Noble Lord opposite (Lord G. Bentinck) had made a less demand than four millions a year for four years, when he introduced his plan for the construction of railways in Ireland, that he would have received much greater support than he did on that oc casion. The present motion proposed to give assistance that it would only to those railways which had p aid u p half of the character, and which he were,was of opiniontherefore, of a bona fide have effected a great deal of good, in giving employment and mitigating the distress under which the country at present laboured. In the neighbourhood of Mallow there were 3,000 per• sons at present employed in the Southern and Western Railway, and there could be no doubt that if assistance were extended to the present measure, proposedthyamtetnht.e rno, sur plus labour of Ireland would find ample employment. 1 1 1 , t e e rar d e t t t o e d w t e h r d y r a m w uc that the h her grant fo A r l a j t e h s e ty' s reclamation Government o f the waste lands of Ireland, which had been announced to-night, for the first time, by the Chancellor of the Ex chequergcertain s t 5 . h a a t t i s fa such c ti o a n n i i n n Ir n e i a l a t l o d n . would be , e , a received e v was w g i u th ite The Government ought to give their reasons for aban doning the Wa s t e L an d s ' Bill, and he was anxious that 1 such should be done, as the people of Ireland were anej xious about it. Sir R. PEEL said, that during the whole course of the discussion, it wu his last wish to throw any obsts- cies in the vvay of the Government. They were al avt are of the diffi cu lt ies by which they were surrounded' and even at the present moment it was with great relue tance that he differed from the Noble Lord, the first Minister of the Crown. He oppo sed site measures of the Noble Lord, the Metaber for Lynn , fsr a siviilar object, and Ile telt bound to .en t, prLposti:on was Ites open to eiTetion than the pre- _ tor it was ()tie general in its nature, and not intended 10, far cur one more than another. But the Bill prop ose° only to assist one or two railways at present el" istence, wiihout having reference to any future schenr-i's: It appeared to him 1.. he a course open to objection, tn the Governnoett shoul.i select three railways, and r° suer. to each ..f them, excluding every 1 ", 1 _ ,ay that that rail,vay compsny exseptieg such as might afterward: entitle th, in:selves to aid by complying with the s aw , condo - toes a, those which procured similar advantage.• for the three railway s that tvere originally Th e s e w ere among the considerasions which indueftd. him to hesitate in voting against the measure which-tn.! Rit'ht Hon. Gentleman opposite had proposed to tng House. In the year 1844. he, on the part of the Goverlr. men:, had proposed that aid should be given to a rait rt way company which had entitled itself to that suPe.,_ by being the first compel - 11 that had established ash t. way in tout country; and he felt that he „„i i . did e', selecte d . justice when lie, On the part Of thy Governmen t, an opinion to the Elf, ct that the company having e l. pleted and upend a certain portion of their line, a nd hs,_ ing so created fiid and ample security to be offered to t r Government, did entitle their claim to be favoura i li be s hoe. Iconsidered by the Treasury, and he felt that be bound, the circumstances being the same, to sclog a similar course with r, gard to other railways of 31 , 1 ; j, , de.;cription But the time and mode of the app"'Certata tion would necessarily influence its extent. of those railways declined to accept the proffered 8 1 by they saw other railways paying 8 per cent., ands w'', should the Government, if it lent any money wha ( e x l as expreseo. lend it so much below the market value of the pert bo 5 per cent? It was rather too hard that compact" lot had previously declined the aid of the Goveriune b should now come forward and solicit aid e t a mt i l y e tta lower rate of interest than that which at the tim e to ordinarily paid. He did not overlook the fact tht_t!, two other railways it was proposed to give 130,00ut.: the sum was small, but the grant of it was wrong is principle, unless they were prepared—if other rail wil) , fulfilled the same conditions—to extend to curb rail aid of a similar kind and proportionate amount. If t 5 refused to do that, they would lay themselves open 'nit the charge of partiality and unf a irness. But biro weighed most on hi s m i n d, an d c hi e fly disabl e : a for from agreeing with his H on . F r i en d the Mea l— an Birmingham—if from long acquaintance that Geodes:no would allow himself' to be called his Hon. Frie nd' the peculiar time at which the present proposition the tnade. Those were times of peculiar pressure Bank of England had reduced its securities by 4 ,1 3,000,0001. ; that sudden and abrupt reduction led to a panic unjustified by ' any considersP Still, which came within his knowledge, or - still, could be supposed to have any real existence' art since the proposition of the Noble Member for Lic ad had been made to the House important events bad 0 occurred. Exchequer-bills, which p rev i o usly wer e l o d premium, were now at a discount ; an increase et, taken place in the interest on Exchequer. bills, an d / w e notwithstanding that. they were at a discount , "% e a from 2s. to 10s, Besides, a loan had been contras' ot. for, and that loan was now at a discount of 3 PI ° t he Under these circumstances, it would be Wit'u• - 1 a wi pe greatest reluctance th a t h e s ho u ld interpose word to interfere with th e measures that Govererner'S might take for the purpose of relieving the urgen cessities of the people of Ir e l a nd. In such $ t o , s e i . stt! ce v . things he did not care wh o mi g ht be in or out of or i . He believed that, whoever might be in office, the WI .. nisters of the Crown ought to receive the g eneral b a d in fidence of the House when the object which they hti" ~. view was to preserve from famine the masses wi t° c 0,41 stituted the population of Ireland ; and he cou ld scar . blame them if to those particular railways that ba d u;;;. mentioned the Government had lent an attentive .0 could not, however, omit to observe, that to ; it , labour on railways was not the way to reliev e the sell,. —the true p..licy of the railway contractor we s i t . ° A se t ploy the best skilled labour ; and it certainly or' tO the appear to him that there w ou ld be much advant a g - ° e working classes in Ireland that the fathers 0 ' ; nw ork should be brought from Connaught to Munster to railways when employment could be morea• tageously given to them at home. On the whole, . ways did not seem t o hi m to be the most fulitcfr mode of giving relief. All that app lied with to the plan of the Government. It was importan...in!' Ireland as it was to every other country to IlnainTi. public credit, and he did find it impossible to g ive vote in favour of the Governme nt p lan. Perha p s Chancellor of the Exchequ er mi g ht sa y that be P'" borrowed 8 000,000 t, that he had saved something or ° • public works, that so u p kitchens had not p ro v ed so er ef6elol°e!!. t pensive as he apprehended, that he had 620,000/. to • spgr.-, and that he could not do better than a pply it '" the manner now proposed. This was reasoning to which ' he could by no means assent. If th ere wa s a sum, 620,0061. to spare, it would be much better to 01;1 the t ttohainnertoeasaipnigily it in balances them intended it should be applied. Instead manner e t h r e wEhxicehhetreer —Meer' s Right Hon. Gentleman had that night argued, he should ' have strictly applied the surplus of 620,000/• to in crease the balances in the Exchequer ; and the House , of Commons had had so much More expenditure to provide for than they had expected, that they mig ht be supposed willing to listen to a demand for an ex penditure so much less than they had been led to expect from the first demand; yet, because the House was liberal, on that v er y account, he (Sir R. Peel)conside red, was the duty more incumbent upon them to app l Y anY savings that might be in the Exchequer, not for the crease, but for the diminution of the public liabilities. If this money were to come out of the 8,000,000 L, which be (Sir R. Peel) did not, understand on Wednesday night+ at when he und ers tood that it was not to come from th source, but out of the Bank, as he thought had been confidently stated, that would be a differen t q uestion. But, if it taifly appeared to the Chancellor of the En' chequer that, finding difficulties he had not expet e " arising in the money market, and seeing that e r ry t mode of relief was necessary to be adopted, he could no , e go on with the measure for the reclamation of w"Ild lands, not being able to meet the expenditure it pours . involve, he (Sir R. Peel) did not blame the Right Hoo Gentleman for abandoning that measure; he did blame him at all for saying in days like these it was nr s expedient to enter upon such an undertaking; tha t o, iu any rate, he would not bring the measure forward.rti,. session, but would at once withdraw it. That, he (SI. • Pct.° thought was a manly course to take, and he entirely agreed with the Right lion. Gentleman in ado' ) g l t • The loan ought to be an advantage in which nd mu g the United Kingdom should equally share, hick Scot object to any loan from the Exchequer in w land and the other portions of Great Britain did ti, • participate.—(Hear, hear.) Why, he had been told 004 all parts or so highly thought of was this railway in the south, e b Ireland, that it did not depend for its support upon soul a sh shareholders, but that great English capitalists had OW" forward, and invested large sums of money in the under - taking. It' this Dublin and Cashel Railway did not be' long to these needy and destitute shareholders, but if' ti did belong t" the men of substance, such as the Right lion. Gentleman behind me—(Great laughter)--- . Mr. HUDSON—I do not possess a s i ng l e s hare e h ts o sa l holding oi that a oft if a men share lk e i PEEL—The Right Hon. Gentlema n a n Sir l Irish s ROBERTh railway. • bh et. tl.me antdeniesv prospects p e t ,0 n the an ri h s t h Lail a tvg e o nti b ° : gain —if these were the men- to mea e s fi u t r e e d, p h ro e p w os o e u d ld . a l sk nfl o u n en w ee h d at by grounds such e was on a t i i t ti h a e n, non-resident in Ireland, but.goodgspecuclators ss 10 be found himself obliged to record his vote against the - Government.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the Odle; subject of the debate, he thought he should lave be°, enough, if a single Member for Birmingham had attacket him; but a spur on each man was too muoh--(A laugh" ihdeerPartesioent ' —but really he must say he thought this a very inar . propriate occasion for entering on a general debate ort the currency and the monetary concerns of the country Mr. SPOONER—I did not begin it. Sir R. PEEL resumed by observing that his lion' Friend had sanctioned, by following, the example t had been set Lim. His Hon. Friend represented too e i.' peculiar doctrines which he had enunciated ; he rePre' t, sented a constituency who had the strongest feelings a n 1.b...b.j..t in tho kingdom • and at least, if his l i ft Friend had not begun this debate, he had lent his h. authority to the continuation of it, and of course it 7 . s : not possible that he (Sir R. Peel) should acquies ce, Qt ' silence, in the doctrines that kis Hon . Friend ha dl)- forward. His Hon. Friend had made him a sort of r-ned wise that it he (Sir R. Peel) wou ld te ll hi m what sp° pai r was, his lion. Friend would t e ll hi e' w h o ' hi s lion. .r or any other banker who i ssue d notes to t h e when he said on • his note, "I promise to pre the 0 " 11 " -- 1 end' But then, when he proceeded to =awe, Ilie.tte said that he was an , insidious men --(411.1•%rc, f A rg - d 4 he could not trust his (Sir R. P t Peel s) _ Age d hunt a s But he wished to know, when any one prow — e s ant - "" pub, st."-ses".. holder of a bank-note, to pay him 51., what wil l ' „, --e na d at what was intended by the promise to pay? r h ;Con• the Conquest, and at various other bans sin ce 7.,'" 0 1 it quest, might have varied in the quantiti of f rm ° tit, represented, but it always had meant a detinit! % - ; o3 s of the precious metals; it always, in fact, lis° to weight. That waight might h a ve varied from. dine time, but at all times a po un d had signified 1 1 1) .. r n of quantity of the precious metals. Since th e reign Queen Elizabeth the coin of the country might have u'l ly • defective, might lave b een worn .—( Haar , betas'') Beli n tes' one Hon. Memler would have nothing but 1 1 ; —(Laughter)—nod a n o th e r a worn coinage; an t i ar , were the grea t r eme die s f or na ti o nal disasters. — t e the hear.) But, since the reign of Elizabeth, though k coin might ha re b een w orn, the law have ways been that the standard of value should a definite weigh. The Hon. Gentleman said that • ; Mr. Pitt had been asked in 1797, 46 What is _ pound?" and hid attempted to answer the q uestio : ; this nation woud have been lowered in the scale nations—(Laugher)—and, with rather an anti-clinillit the Hon. Crentientin went on to say, that he (Sir au Peel) should not have been seated in the seat he tb occupied. But, he begged to observe , that if anyb ad Y had said in 179; to Mr. Pitt, "Is it your intention f have a paper ctrreitcy ?" Mr. Pitt wo uld hale ssisTo " God forbid ! Ido not intend any such thing." It well known thatthe Bank Restriction Act was never 70 tended to last mere than three years;_ but the evil ws°,, once departing tom a principle. Afterwards, eveti• nn4 , # Pitt could not caitrol the necessary tendency of thick: What might hare been its effect in earning us the jeer; of the war he would not discuss; but he would a su ffe re d most b . , the inconvertible paper . Tbal • that receivt.d the wages of labour. .. ?Jr. SPOONIR expressed dissent. - Sir ROBE R I PEEL resumed--What wer e not ths class the priuctial sufferers who received Oar no t