The Sun. — London, England, 1806-05-07 00:00:00

tline. A long dikiisSion had taken place which could (Ally have for its (Ned to .ascertairi. what regulations it would he proper ,to adopt on this subje& in a' period of Peace. He, however, could not pretend to that de gree of political foresight which would enable him to determine, in the' present situation OF the world, what measures it would be fit this Country should sort to in Peke. The Noble Lord opposite to him had gone into.an abstrad theory. on a supposed op position of We - interests of navigation and com merce. He should not enter into the inves tigation of his theory . ; but before the Noble :eord founded any argument upon it, he should be glad .to know whether, at any period since - the - World , began, commerce and'naVidation had been found to clash ? The result of the Allerican War shewed the fallacy of the Noble Lord's : theory. When the 1 3 Colonies were separated from Great Britain, the na vigation was thrown open, , but the commercial rela tions of this Country 'with America remained unal tered. It was impossible any. longer to guard that branch of British navigation by legislativeb pro Visions; but when it could no,longer be proteded bylaw it was prote&ed by ,commerce. There was not a greater error in politics than that which the Noble Lord seemed to have adopted, namely, an obstinate ad herence to old institutions, when the causes which had occasioned them have long since ceased. It was more wise to change systems of policy as the cir cumstances of the world changed, and to recoiled, that with respect to 'the interests of this Conntry, their Lordships were now in a similar 'situation to that in which the framers of the Laws in question had in their time been placed. :- Lord FLIION opposed . the Bill, and Lord SHEF FIELD said a few words in reply. The Bill was then read a second tine, and Ordered to be committed oil Thursday. Lord HAWKESBURY gave notice, that in the Com mittee he would move to limit the duration of the Bill to%Tanuary 1807 or 1808.—Adjourned. )LOUSE OF COMMONS. TUESDAY, MAY 6. A Messagefrom the Lords - informed the House,' that they would procFed, to the Trial of Lord Mel ville, in Westminster-Hall, 'at ten o'clock on Thurs dny next, and that they had agreed to the Sea Of-. fence , s' Bill. Lord OssuLSTON informed the House, that His M ajesty had been waited upon with the Address moved by Mr. WILBERFORCE on Saturday, and that he would give orders accordingly., Mr. DENT moved, that the Accounts moved for on the II th' of July 1805, teSpe6ting the Expences and Disbursements of the Sierra Leone Company, should be returned forthwith.—Ordered. Mr. VANSITTART said, as business of importance ' stood for Thursday, and for the convenience of seve-' ral Gentlemen, he rose - fot the purpose of . .moving, that the consideration. Of the Report of the Iron m Duty Bill should be postponed till Friday next ; which was accordingly agreed to ; when he gave notice that he would move that it be- committed. Mr.. W. SMITH brought up the Report of the Committee for grantino• to His Majesty a - Duty of 31, on. every hundred . weight of Wrought Iron ; 'which _was -agreed to ; as also the _Report of the kmmmittce toir granting a countervailing I.),Acy of per hundred Ni4.. , ight on Iron exported from Ireland, and provision-was ordered to be made accordingly in the Iron Duty Bill. The LORD ADVOCATE Of SCOTLAND brought in the Bill for AugMenting the Salaries 'of the Judge of the Court of Admiralty, and the Judges of the Com-. missary Court in Scotland ; whiCh was read - a first time, and ordered to be read' a second time to-Morrow: ADDITIONAL FORCE ACT. On the Motion of Mr. Secretary WINDHAM, the Order of the Day was, read for. the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Bill for, Repealing the Ad ;Ition.al Force Mt. Mr. Secretary WINDHAM moved, that the Speaker do now leave the Chair, on which - :Mr.. JO,ll iNTST ONE rose, eo qate; in a few words,. the motives which induced him to give the vete which he meant to do on the present Motion. When the _ _ Additional Force Bill was first ititrotk he had in , • an early stage expressed his disapprobation of it, which disapprobation was grounded on his eonvic tion of its insufficiency. , Still, • however,. when it was proposed last Ses'sion to.repeal the Bill .he had voted against that repeal, not intending.by that vote to preclude himself from, supporting any subsequent re peal that might be proposed, but merely to suspend that repeal until the further operation . of the Bill was ascertained. He confessed that his expectations had been very much raised by what had been stated by the Right Hon. Sectary for the War Depart ment, whohad said a great deal of the inefficiency of the Army, of the mariner in which the battalions had been clubbed,•as he termed it, and of his con viaion that ArMies alone decided the fate of Nations.. Ail these declarations had led him to look for some thing more. than. that Right Hon. Gentleman had brought forward. He• did not think the induce ments which he field out to •an augmentation of the regular force were sufficiently powerful ; they were not equal (even numerically speaking) to the' bounty that he proposed to take away ; he did not see in his measures a resource adequate to the existing neces— sity; he owned he had been disappointed; he believeds that a considerable part. of the Right Hon.. Gentl eman's plan was impracticable; 'he had omitted to do any thing to render the military profession more ac,. traetive, either to the men or the Officers.. On this head he (Mr. J.) recoMmended a pursuance of the system adopted with regard to the Navy—to the men ad increase of Serjeants and Corporals ; to the Officers, the certainty, a certainty which attend- . ed every other military systeni in Europe, of being 'promoted on the achievement of any gallant enter prize. He did not mean to advise .such funda mental alteration in our military system, as that merit alone should obtain promotion ; what he wish ed for was, that v , hen any Officer had so eminently distinguished himself as -to be mentioned in the Genetal Orders, that he sheutti.ii - ain one step. The advantage of such a System might be seen in history,. and was, at this . Moment, strongly evinced t in the French military service, and, our own Marine. He could not think that the adoption of such a system could injure the feelings of a single individual, while it would be extensively serviceable .to the Country. With regard 'to the means proposed by the Right Hon. Gglitleman, for carrying his plaP of an in ' Crease of the Regular Force into execution, lie ,thought that they- wanted tliat courage, that energy, that decision, Nvhith might reasonably be expected from a strong:Government. This seemed to him tol clearly shewn in . the hesitation to take from the Militia that aid which would be - necessary to carry the : Military Establishment of the Country to the desirable point. For his part, he would recommend that inlistment from the Militia- into' the Line should be encouraged as far as it could be carcied, and that . then the deticiPncy in the Militia should diatelv supplied by ballot. A, •dimioution of the Militia took place in 1799, but was any. evil the _re- . . stilt ? Last year 14,000 men were drawn from the Militia. Was the Militia System impaired ? Were the Militia Officers disgusted ? To him this appear ed to be the otily effective means , of carrying our Regular Army to the amount which was wished for, namely, 200,000 men. If the number at which it should be deemed eligible to fix the Militia' was 40,000, and the plan he suggested should reduce it to 20,000, then the ballot ought instantly to supply the deficiency,. and in the present crisis when every otie was eager to shew his attachment to the' Coun. try, there, could be no doubt that such a measure Would be received with cordiality. This plan would likewise prevent the prevailing evil custom into which Parishes had fallen, of paying half the fine for persons who were unwilling to serve, and thus de parting from the original ,intention of the Militia, Act;-it would also prevent the growing evil of Militia Clubs, SubsCriptions, ; and, above all, it would give us a Force by which we should be enabled, either to.return to Peace in - safety, or prosecute the War with vigoitr. Colonel GRAHAM:, adverting to what had been stated the. otherevening, with reglird to the various Military systems of Europe, con tended,th at in France, particularly during the, last century, until the Revo lution, limited service was the general system. He had put questionS to several ei. : devatit French ,Offi-7 cers on the subjecl, and he, found that their answers coincided. One of these answers was so' deCisive, that he would take the liberty of reading it, espe cially as it proceeded from an Officer of high reputa,_ tion.. The question was, " Had any inconvenience been sustained in 'France by the introdu'aion of limited service ?!' The answer,." - Quite the contrary, it rendered recruiting much more easy, as there Were many• who were willing _to make a kirci 'of party of pleasure, for: a few years, but not for life, and in fact a 'young fellow could not get a wife who had not made a cbngd for eight or ten years." In the present state of Europe, it became necessary in this Country, to lay the foundation of a great Military 'Power : this could' only be done by the adoption of such a system 'as that proposed by his Right Ho nourable Friend; but then that-system must be the `only one, it must be without a rival, it must receive the strong sanction of the Legislature, it must pro mise to be permanent.' If he-were asked, " By re pealing this Additional Force Act, do you abandon all future Compulsion he would say, " By no means." Compulsion would, indeed, come with a better grace. after the people had been shewn that ,every other means had . been resorted to uhsuccess fully.. By voting, however, for the repeal of the Additional Force Aet, he by no means pledged him self to support the whole of the Plan of his Right I-lon. Viriend. There were parts of. that Plan to which he 'certainly should obje&. Of the advan tages of the Volhnteer System,, for instance, he was perfealy convinced. Of' the Volunteer's of England, 'it was true, he had had little experience ; 'he had only seen two Battalions of Volunteers in Scotland; of those in Ireland,he must say,that they were equal to any purpose to which troops could be applied, and perfealy.fit to act with the Line: There was ano ther part of the Right Hon. Gentleman's Plan Which, in his opinion, might be amended. This was, the `• different periods of service by which a soldier became entitled to supe,rior advantages. He thought that these periods - ought not to be equal, but that it would, be attended with a great advantage to make the first period the largest, carefully avoiding to make it 'So. long, however, as to discourage the youhg 'recruit. With regard to the fear that had been expressed' of - the effect that the_ adoption of his Right Hon. Friend's, Plan was likely to have upon the existing Army, he knew the character : of the.BritiSh Soldier, and he knew that no danger heed be, apprehended on that point: Certain engagements had been made; if these were hot infringed,, no ;ruhrmurring . wOuld or could ensue, The very discussion of the subject was cal- Culatej to satisfy the minds' of the British Soldiery. Never could he believe that the measures in con •templation would produce an inelination in the minds - of the Officers criminally'-to relax the dis cipline of their RegimentS to induce their men to re-enlist at the expiration 'of their term of 'ser vice. If their tendency - should be to lessen the pre.. sent severity of military punishments, it would, be a desirable result.' Still less was it probable, that the measure would render, the soldier less brave as the period of his liberOtion approached. What ! • was it possible that it Could be supposed that he would wish to be sent back . tti his 'own village branded with - the name of coward ! The courage of the British Sol dier .was not merely physical.. It derived its more noble qualities from the sense he entertained of his independence as amEnglishman—of his being born in a,free Country. He appealed to every General Of ficer in the Country, whether lie would .rather com mand an Army compOsed of men who were merely possessed of physical courage, who were only me-. chanically brave ; or of men whose minds were of .a superior cast, and who were animated by nobler and more generous sentiments. . Lord CASTLEREAGH declared, that no ihdivi ' dbal could be more strongly impressed than Limself how ungracious was'the task to oppose any Admini stration in a measure which they asserted wascalcu lated to relieve the Country from an oppressive bur, den. It was not only an ungracious task ; it was -likely to be a fruitless , one. It was not prbable that he could persuade the House to agree with him in opinion ; but such was his convi&ion of theinade -quacy of the system which was proposetfas the suc cessor of the measure, the repeal of which was then under contemPlation, that he should . feel himself . guilty of a gross derelidion of public duty if he re- trained from expressing his sentiments with regard to , it. By expressicg those sentiments the whole weight of the responsibility would be thrown on the should _ ers cif the . Ministers whoshould cast a w ay so power ful an instrument as that which was now in their hands without having previously provided an ade quate subStitute. It was ' rather extraordinary that the Rt. Hon. Secretary fur the .War .Department had. chosen to sit silent under the - speech of his At. Hon. Friend the other evening , a speech which . was as admirable for the.brilliant fancy as fir the,solid ar gument which it contained, The Right: Hon.Gen tleman,' however, had chosen rigidly to dismiss the House„ without deigning-to make any answer to 'what had been so ably'and so docjilehtly aTtluced;--- The Right Hon. •Genfletnan had only tauntifil4ly asked whether or not any other. Gentleman had any thing to'Say in 'defence 'Of the Additional 'Fere& Ad? , :He would .now state what he had himself to urge in defenceof it and he assuredthe R.t. Hon, Gentle man that, in what he should that night trouble the. House with, it was his intention, to confine himself as closely to the discussion of the A& as possible ; not that he was unaware of the bearings of, the, Rt. Hon. Gentleman's plan on the subject, but because the investigation of the s Mt itself, was a question sufficiently:extensive. He would, .therefore, care fully mkt travelling into the consideration of the plan proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman,except Where it was indispensibly necessary'. so to do. A preliminary question certainly ought tobe 7 what the military deficiencies then were, and what they ,were likely to be during the present year, under the sys= tern which the Right Hon. Gentleman had partially .developed ; for in proportion to the ammint of that deficiency:would be the reluctance that the ; House must feel in parting with a 'measure which was so well calculated to assis.f at least in supplying it. As . he understood the Rt. Hon. Gentleman, he had de dared that. the existing Regular Army was by no means adequate to the exigencies of the State : he' had, however, expressed his intention, altho' - his own system of discharging was not to operate for seven years, to adopt the plan antecedently fixed upon.-- - -- The Army he had stated as then 25,000 less in number than it ought to be. • The annual casualties amounted to not less. than 15,000 4 • to this mast be added the nine Veteran Battalions,' . exceeding 6000 men, -and all those who had served 21 years;_ the Militia like Wise was to be reduced from 56,000 to 38,000. The grbss demand for recruits therefore to supply 'all these deficiences would be 51,000 men: The Right Hon. • Gentleman, by resealing the Addi tional Force A&, took upon himself the respOnsibility of providing for ,theSe deficiencies, without bolding out any inducement, except the single, one of enlist- meat for limited service. Next year the waste mnst Considerably increase, and when the term of years at .theexpiratinn of which the discharging part of, his' plan Was, to operate, had passed, the casualties :would be doubled, .and amount; instead of fifteen, to thirty thousand tilen. In arguing in support of the Additional Force Aat, he would' confine himself to the - discussion, of the civil branch of it . gxclusively ; but in answer to 7 what, had been stated' the othenevening with regard to the influence of the Aa on the regular recruiting, it became necessary to say a few words. The' regular recrniting.would be found, .on examination, to haVe been Very little operated upon by events Chich might appear likely to affeat it. To prove this, he would state the Month ly averages of the regular recruiting for four distinal periods, when it was under the influence of different circumstances. The first period wag for the.. twelve' months previous to the' epa&ment Of the Army of Reserve Bill, ,the monthly average of which had been 980. men. The - second perioct was for the 4 eight months. that the Army of : Reserve .4 and ' the enlistment from 'the I.lilitia .into the Line were in operation, the monthly average of which had been 780 men ; thus although duringthat period not less than 10,000 men had -been raised by lecal're- - cmiting, there was only a small reduction of 20(4 men from the first period. The third peried was the interval between the close of the operation of the. Army of .Reserve A& and the commencement of that 'of the Additional Defence A&, the monthly average of which had been 7.51 men. - The fourth and last period was thel 8 months. during, which the Addi - tional Force Mt bad been in operation, the monthly average of which had been 958 men. The liaise would therefore see, that during the last period, when the Additional - Foree MI was in force, the regular re ' cruiting had flourished more than during the period when no measure was operating against it. The Mt under consideration had procured 11,000 men a year • by local enlistments and parochial levies. Without some measure of this sort the ordinary recruiting would be insufficient. In his-opinion no number of recruiting parties that could be detached consistently with the welfare of the Artnyywould be sufficient to reach the population, so as a draw as great a supply as might be derived from it. Supposing that there were 500,parties, and that the population was fifteen millions, there would then be but one party to a po pulation of 30,000; and, in many instances, he was convinced that there was only a single party to a po pulation of 10 4 000. 'lt would be highly impolitic to send more parties, as this would withdraw from, the 'Army too great a number of valuable Officers and men. , The expellee of the recruiting service ; was 200,0001. a-year, which made the actual _cost of each man procnred, exclusive of bounty, 1.81. while the expence of raising the men by the Parish Officers did not exceed fent' guineas. He had once thought. Of suggesting a plan of, employing civil a g ents,-. but this he did not believe would be so effeEtual as 'by somejudicions and necessary alteratiOns to Lucke the present Aa..• still more efficient. • That there were abuses in the Aa be did not deny, but into what legislative Mt did they not creep ? He would, how ever, on a future day, move for Papers to shew that these abases were not se -considerable as had been pretended. By these Papers, the' House 'wand find that no system of recruiting ever went so completely td localise the levy. The repeal of the Bill *as pro posed- at., the very moment when the' difficulties which had hithertO obstructed` its execution were ceasing.. Ile would, state'the operation 'of the Bill in a single countY; Leicestershire : the number of men to 'be furnished by that county was 200 ; they raised 151, so that fOr the 49 def.cient the county was only liable to the fine of 2,151; If the Defence Mt had been properly enforced .this would have been a more general ,case: Nothing that had-been hitherto shewn induced him to despair of the sue... cess of the A& if it were allowed to remain in fOrce. There was nothing in the Rt. Hon. Gentleman's Plan, to compensate the Country for the loss of this A&. One clause in' the Bill before the House was so ob je6tionable that'he must enter his pretest against it even 'in that stage. It was that by Which Parishes not having fulfilled the stipulations were indernui , -tied from the penalties of the MI. Nothing could' be more unjust and impolitic than flips to confound the aaive and meritorious with the indolent and, culpable; and the t Aight Hon.. Gentleman himself would probably ,feel the of e& of this principle, which he was desifons' of establishilig - , 'in the execu tion of any measures be Might bring fcraiard. He could not but consider such a release frOm the penal ties incurred, as_likely to have a very injurious infisi ence on the operation of such measures as might hereafter be resorted to for a similar purpose, and as a degradation to Parliament: . .When the .measure •httd' been - first introduced there Were deficiendiesdil . the Army of Reserve' to the amount of 17;000 men, for which fines were outstanding and leviable to a much larger amount than the penalties at present incurred Under the Additional Force Bill. Tile Le ff ,gislature had remitted those fines„ bUt provided A \ remedy, by imposing a new duty on the .Parishes in the Ad now proposed, to be repealed. Though the - Legislature had remitted the. fines, it had never been in the contemplation of Parliament to inderanify Parishes for the amount of the fines which they had 'aC.tually paid. There bad been raised by the Parishes all over the kingdom 37,000 men, .and when he, !looked to those Parishes that had been defaulter's; both under•the Army of Reserve and Additional De •fetice Ads, he thought it 'hard that they should he . .allowed in both instances to go free of any.penalty.. .The Parish - he should particularly notice; which afforded the sole instance of a case having been made ; out and submitted to Parliament in the shape of a Petitioo - to Parliament ; he alluded to the Parish' of ,St.Mary4e-bone. The quota of that Parish to the Army of Reserve was tea, .and outof that it was 8 'deficient.: Not a singleman had been raised in the parish for the Additional Force Ad. In the Parish of St. 'Anne, the next, to the parish of Mary-le-bone, the Whole of its quota, both under the Army of Reserve, and - Additional Force Ads, .had been raised, and yet the measure of the Right- Hon. Gentleman was to have the effeat of placing both parishes on the same footing.. - The parish that had exerted itself in the execution of.both Ads, and withsuccess, was to be at the loss of all the trouble, inconvenience, and 'ex penee incurred theretity, whilst the parish of Mary- . le-bone, that had been a defaulter with re fed to both Ads, was to be saved.harmles,s, and to triumph for its inattention' to the provisions cif the Legisla ture. There was one clause in the Bill, which, if it should go into the Committee, he should eertainly' propose to have left out ; he meant theclartse-forin-.: dernoifYing the parishes, upon which' the penaltieg had been levied, which, if adopted, would go to . , throw disgrace 'upon'a solemn Ad - of Parliament; and it would be easy to foresee that the. same course would be looked to in other jnstances, and' that simi lar neglect would be the consequence, as to Tonne measures of a similar nature. If it were his wish to involve his Afajesty's _Ministers in difficulty and dt,4-' b oi - ace he coold not pursue a more effedual course_ than to suffer the Bill to pass; to withdraw all oppo sition .ftorfi the proposed System, and to permit the ' measures meant babe brought forward to pass with out any comment 'Or amelioration. But ,he was so thoroughly convinced of the effed that the Bill un der_ discussion would have on the military strength and siltimate security of the Country, that he should oppose it in every stage. He contended that the Bid .propoSed to be repealed was . advantageous, and not objectionable, and capable of improvement as to the abuses that were so' much insisted upon, as well as rendered highly produdive 'to the Army, On all these grOunds, therefore, be 4hould vote against the Speaker's leaving the Chair. . • . . 111 r. DENIS BROWNE objedad to the:system proposed bythe' Right. Hon. Secretary,' as calcu)ated to change the whole military systeurof - the Country. He would not consent to the repeal of the Additional Force Bill, because. he looked upon it as prodUdik, and had reason to know that it-had. proved efficient. He could not consent to g ive up such a mea s u r e tb r a 4stem, no part of which he could approve oE Th e measure had succeeded completely in Ireland. In the eighteen mouths since it had passed there had been raised in Ireland 4552 men under its operation. hese men had been raiseddn the manner directed , the Ad on the bouhty allowed: by law. No ore motley was paid than the Ad direded on rais- g tbe'men. He had been informed, even by ait Learned Judge who Went to the North-east Circuit, that he had been applied to at an :Asaize to suspend the levy.of the penalties incurred for some defick encies under the Ad to the last day . of the AssizeS. The Judge did so, and the men were all produced. On these grounds he should vote against the Re peal. . . . Lord HENRY PETTY, in reply to . Ivhat had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman. who had just sat' down, observed, that the Bill proposed to be repeal 4 was the English, not the Irish Additional Force Bill. He was glad to find 'the Noble LOrd at length dis posed to try the Aft upon its own - merits; without reference to any other measures. The Right HOn. Gentleman opposite ,(Mr. Canning) had ou a for. mer night objeded against the measures proposed by his Right. Hon:Friend, that they *ere novel. But hebegged to say that the measure now to be repeal ed,- when brought forward, was a new one. It' was not. intended in confirmation of the 'measures of the preceding Administration,: but in opposition to them. It was. intended to put local influence-in opposition to, local compulsion, 'that they were then to decide upon the effeft Which in this respea,it had produced. , In discassinethis question he should set-aside all the radical dele6ts of the measure, and consider' it only as to the extent towhi:cli it had secured the objets proposed to be attained by it. The measure - .then -under discussion I,l' ' RS- founded on the total failure of that Bill ; for whatever prospefts might have been held out frbm - it; every-one of the object which it was intended to accomplish-reunified still tolie ob tained: The Noble Lord(Castlereagh) would adm i tthat one of its principal objects was to obtain' a large and -effealive supply of Force to the Army, in the propor tion of the deficiences then existing; and to arise its-the Army of Deserve and the Mil:tia. -So far as the Bill had procured men' towards that,puttose,.. so fir it ,had succeeded ;''but so far as the Supply of men pro cured fell short of these deficienc.es, so far it had failed. He proposed to coniicior, Ist, what,The was intended to produce, then what it has produced, and next „what was the-enormous expellee that had -attended it. (The Noble Lord . entered here into a statement of the-numbers prov)sed to be raised; and aelually raised by the measure ; spewing, that afterdeduCting from the riuthhttr to be raised, the, \ number produced by the Bill, thore was at - present a deficiency .of 18;927 men, and penalties to the amount of 45,4051. now due in England).- • But 'it had *teen said, that the- Parish Offleers were. now.ac :,.