The Sun. — London, England, 1817-05-20 00:00:00

Low could the tiekciency in the revennz. be tup ilietii ?. He thought tienticmen opposite, a•t a time like the present, ought to point out a more 'con venient method of raising 50,0001. before they proposed Out the Chancellor of the Exchquer should give up the Lotteries this year. Lord Hnrttt.TON said be should oppose the Bill nu those grounds which bad been ably and forcibly stated by the Hon. Member who last spoke (Mr. 'Ward), when he Tesisted the continuance of Lot teries on a tormer occasion.. --:(Hear, bear!) • Mr. P. GRBtivetu begged to 'correct the Hon. Member (Mr. Ward) as to the produce of Lotte ries; so far from the Lotteries realizing 500,000/.• anomally,Ahey, had never produced half that sum. (Hear, hear !) Mr. TIERNEY stated, in answer to an lion. Ikiember (Mr. Ward), who wished to know how the deficiency could be supplied that would be oc casioned by giving up the Lottery, that the Chan cellor of the Excheqner had Tainted out the means: it might be made up by an issue of Ex chequer Bills. Mr. Man having explained, the House di vided. The lumbers. were, on the question that the 13111 be vOirft third time " now' Ayes 7B Noes - ' 48 On our return . to the gallery we found Mr. eiIIENFELL regretting that he was forced to take op the subject pieceme►►l. He should pro pose to omit altogether th►►t clause which went to give to the Bank of England a remuneration for managing the Lottery, it► addition► to that they already derive from the. money of it passing through. their hands. They received for this management 500 W. a year, whiLli in the present situation of the country would be a very proper saving that Ought not to he overlooked, lie could assure the Right lion. Gentleman, that out of that !loose there was only•one concurrent feeling as to . the way in-which this transaction was conducted. The Bank - had received for this trifling service, since the year 1806, no less than between 40,0001. and 50,0001. Ile adverted to the large profits gained by the' Bank on the loans contracted for dining the war . , and -alter repeating that they ought to take the management of the Lottery without compensation, he moved that the whole of the clause on tl►ia point in page 33 of the Bill be omitted. . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if the Hon. Gentleman could suggest any more eco nomical mode of management than that of the Bank of England, he should be happy to adopt it ; but this was not likely, unless the system was takers entirely out of their hands, which would produce no benefit to the public. The experiment, be was sore, could nut be made in the pr .sent in stance, without altering the system, and therefore he should Oppose the alteration. Mr. LITTLETON proposed, instead of the title of the Bill, to substitute one founded on an Act passed in the reign of King William, for suppress ing all Lotteries, It should be called "An Act to enable the Lords Commissioners of the Trea sury, to raise stunts of money, by setting up cer tain mischievous games, called Lotteries, injurious to the good, the trade and welfare of leis Ma jest y'sdorninions." _ Sir J. NEWCORT observed, that our ancestors, in the time of King William, were of opinion that the ravenue ought not to stand in the way-of the public welfare ; but the Chanceller of the Exche quer of the present day Thought ►he public good as nothing, when pot in the way of the public re venue. The:PHANcEtt.ok of the EXCHEQUER said, the Act of King lVilliatn -adverted only'to Private Lotteries., Mr. I.lp.auAnn MORRLAND contended that the words of the Statute were Private Lotteries and all others. It went further it . declared them to be common and public nuisances. That wits the law even at the present hour, although it was evaded by these annual licences. Indeed, •a` the law now Stood, .all persons in any way concerned in planning and executing Lotteries were declared to be common rogues---(A laugh thiongh the Iloutte.) Mr. 13110UG110.1 was of opinion that the title Of the Bill ought to run thtti :—"An Act for the encouragement of vice antl etpecially among the:lower elesses.o GRBNPZIA, would once more suggest, whe. ther it this evil was to' he continued, in order to Increase the reve►rue of the country, there could be' an objection to its being managed by the Excheriner No fillSWet was returned ; anti the question be. lug put, that the clause stand part of the Bill, it WAS can-tell in the affirmative. The Bill was then teed a third time and passed. ATIOLITION OF SINECURES. Mr. D. GILBBKT moVediirCse;;;d reading of the Justiceships in Eyre's Abolition Bill. Mr. Bosweta., after regretting that some Mem ber of more influence titan himself did not step forward to oppose the series of Bills which origi nated in the abolitions recommended.by the Fi trance Committee, spoke at considerable length against the proposed measure, Lie •woeld not be deterred by the eopueularity to which he should be exposed ; nor did he think that Parliament • ought to yield to clamour hi its legislative enact metus. conomy•was necessary in the present moment; but the abolition of these places would create no immediate relief, and no great ultimate saving. He (ported Mr. Burke against the pre., sent system of abolitions. He objected to the Compenaation Bill, as a -measure which would make duration of service, rather than tranacen deeey of talent or brilliancy of exertion, the cri terion of merit. In the history of the country there would be found names which had been illus trated in a short career, and the records of imii videals, who in a abort space bad conferred immor tal obligations on their fellow-citizens and man kind. Length of service might be a proper mode of estimating the reward of clerks, or ascertaining the value of mechanical perseverance. He denied that the influence of the Crown bad increased to any undue or alarming extent. Fevouritism had not placed Nelson in the command of a fleet, or conferred on Lord Wellington the conduct of our army. He would oppose all the Bills, as parts of a system for tusking inroads on our present Coe stitution and Government. LOUT MILTON Wilbed only to aay a few words on ;I: measure eetich 'he - Mau& 1101111111aicTi7.7 with no nppoiitiuu ; and he would not have said any thing at all, had be not been induced to ani madvert on some parts of' the Hon. Gentleman's speech. He bad quoted Mr. Burke's speech on the Civil List, and seemed to consider himself as an hereditary commentator on his attuning : brit he bad totally misapprehended him.' If he (Lord M.) hid any fault to find with the Committee, it was because they had not viewed the whole subject so comprehensively as' Mr Burke, but had taken scraps and shreds of his principles. The Hon. Gentleman bad said, that Alt, Burke was against the abolition of sinecures, and qaoted it part of his speech that seemed to countenance that idea ; but had he read the whole he would have seen that Mr. Burke, in advising the alienation of the own lands, contemplated ttie abolition of this very office of the Justices in Eyre, as one of the be• neficial consequences of that measure. Thus, said he, would fall the justiceship in Eyre, &c. Mr. Burke thus not only recommended the abolition of these sinecures, but the removal of th e ver y foundation on ,which they rested. The Hon. Gent, had said, that the proposed system ofabo !kiwi would make. inroads on our Constitution, but these sinecures were no parts of our Constitu tion. As efficient offices, they were parts of our Government formerly ; as sinecures, they were now none.. lie (Lord M.) wits as little disposed to, yield to the clamour of which the Hon. Gent, had spoken as any mats, but it was not clamour. only that was against sinecures ; all the middling ranks of society, and even the highest order ot the public out of doors, had expressed a decided opi nion against them ; anti though he would not yield to clamour, be would say, with Mr. Burke, God forbid that he should oppose the universal and de cided sense of the coontry. 'The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to• Morrow. The second reading of the Exchequer-oilices' Regulation fill of England and Ireland was then moved. Sir OHN NEWPORT made: a few observations, which we could not distinctly bear fiom a noise in the gall ery. Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that the division of the measure into so many separate Bills had been adopted .upon mature deliberation, both as rendering the plan more practicable,and less likely to be defeated in another place. I - lis Majesty' s Government were disp o itd to regar d the prineed ing as a whole, and to support it in all its parts. Sir JotcN NEWPORT explained; after which the Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. On the motion for the second reading of the 011 ices in Ireland Regulation Bill, SirJonN /law- PORT inquired, why no notice was taken in this Bill of the Board of Works in Ireland, which had been some years since the subject of a distinct report, in which its abolition was recommended ? Mr. fe at, Still!, this subject was at present under consideration. The principal.offieer . toad Lith erto been also employed as superintendent of the bar rack department% Some new arrangement; how. ever, in the present circumstances of the public service, was felt to be necessary, dud he hail a clause to propose in the Committee which hail that object in contemplation. 'lice Bill was then read a second time, as was also the Board of 'Trade Regulation Bill, after a few wools from Mr. CA;..CRAPT ► and ordered seve rally to be cotmuitted to-mormw, OVFICES COMPENSATION BILL On the motion for the second reading of the Offices Compensation Bill, Sir It. HEtioN thought it necessary to offer a few observations'. He considered it, as he be lieved it would be generally considered, that the Bill was of a piece with all the rest of those which had emanated from the Committee on In come and k xpenditure. He could not but con shier the whole as any thing but a most vain at. tempt to delude and impose upon the people. The Committee - had produced certain measures . for what they called the regulation of certain offices, and then they did not regulate them or ,abolish them, but left them with Courtly politeness to swell the expellees of the country. They had re commended the abolition' .of • certain offices, b u t then it was with all due respect to the vested interests. When it Wes the inten tion to deprive the people of their rights anti their liberties, and to take from them what formed their dearest and most valuable property, a few days were too long to be granted them; but when the purpose was to save the country a con Siderable.eipenee, they were very dilatory in come plying with the requests and petitions which had been presented to them through the Parliament. it was a new feature in the • Constitution that offices should be made a means of pecuniary speculation. Much had been said about sine cures and pensions being railed at ; now this might happen elsewhere, and it had happened. They had been railed at sufficiently by a Palace•yard Orator, who, whatever might have been his yeal intention, had been a great friend to Government, And had assisted them in their plots, but they had never been much talked of on his side of the House, in the manner which Ito and his friends were charged with having used, The Coal, wittee had hot itself too MOCil to Ministers, as the House could ; easily know by a glance at the proceedings of the last Session. A promise had been made in the last Session, of economy in the name of the Regent, which was an insult to him and a mockery on the people, Nothing had come vo. Unitarily from. Ministers, till they were told by their friends that they must of necessity economise. Ministers should have turned their attention to the Civil List and the expences of 'the Household. But when the people were looking for a diminu tion of expenee, additions bad been made to the Civil List of 260,0001. Before'that time money bait also been given from different sources, and particttlarly from that illegal and ,iniquitOus fund the proits of,th e Admitalty, the source of national injustice, and the prey of Royal piracy. He ad mitted that a considerable .reduction had taken place in the establishment of the army, but still it was much larger than upon former peace establish. rents. The cause of that had been ascribed to our foreign colonies, but the real object was to form a military Govyrnment at home, to keep dow n the just discontent of the people. He was in favour of the other t#ills passing, but should the . - Present ti=vtonfes7fill eonattion of t pen e .you t. be worse than it had been before. The Gallery, was then cleared, but no division took 'place; and upon our re-admission we found Mr. Baouonasa arguing against the Bill. He.ob served, that if a ppli ca ti on were to be ma d e t o Par liament to enable the Crown to grant compensalion for services, he should not be against the measure. But the present was a measure of a ptospective and systematic tendency, and gave the Crown, in addi tion to the present Pension. List, 42,0001. a-year. Now was the first time that the idea had been em bodied into a legislative Act that politics was a trade. He asked the House to cote to a scrutiny of the measure. The at portent of toe friends of the Bill was,you strip the Crowb of its patronage, and you are bound to give compensation for the re ward of meritorious services. . But the fallacy of that could easily be evinced : for the reward of :public services, the Crown was in possession of the Pension List of three kingdoms, Which, in 1809, a year when the \Vest India 44,- per cent, fund Was diminished nearly a half, had amounted to '220,000/. Upon that List were to be found individuals be hinging to pOwerful and wealthy families, which families had been in the habit of voting with all Ministers upon all . questions. If one such name could be found opposite to a pension, the Crown he contended bad a means of rewarding ser vices ; and was 42,0001. to be added to the fund already in die hands of the Crown, which fund, by the law and the constitution, was set ;Tart for the reward of meritorious services ? That fend was at present misapplied, and It was monstrous to call for any addition to it. With the addition of the West India Fund, the Pension List amounted to 240,0001., and the present Bill was calculated to increase the Pension List. It was not enough to she w that the' Crown had been deprived of patronage,. but that , what was proposed to be given was adapted for compensation of serviges. By the passing of the present tliere would be no real diminution of the patronage of the Croton, and no need of the Bill for •compen sa:ion. I Before 1811 'there had been no autho rity for such a measure ; but it was now al leged, to be necessary for the splendour' of the Crown, and for its influence (which might not be objectionable in a practical point of view) upon the other branches of, the Constitution. A new. doctrine had been of late broached, that the services of men of talents should be Call ed into action, which could not he accomplished if the Crown had no, sinecures to reward them.— The fact, howeier, was, that Offices had never been given in that way, and that alone was a suf. ficient answer to the argument. A cursory exa mination would prove that to be the case. In the .case of the office of Warden of the Chigoe Ports, and Constable of Dover Castle, the three last holders of these offices had been Lord North, air. Pitt, and the present Earl of Liverpool ; and their predecessors bad been the Duke of Dorset and the Earl of Holderness. He was ready to admit that Lord North had performed meritorious services, but was he,•- the-heir apparent of an Earldom, a poor man ? Of - Mr. Pitt and Lord Liverpool he shOuld say nothing. • With respect to the office of Governor of the isle of Wight, at a former period the Duke of Bolton had been the Governor, and the present Governor was Lord fitzbarris. The Duke of Montague and the Earl of Cardigan had been formerly Governors of Windsor Castle. Sir John Shelley had been Clerk of the' Pipe. In the list of Tellers of the Exchequer were to he found the names of Lord Delaware, Lord Walpole, Earl of Kinnoul, and Lord Thurlow. But of a list of 21 Tellers of the Exchequer', four only bad been hi want of the place. Col. Barry had been Clerk of the Pelts in Ireland. The offices of Chief Justices inEyre had been stated to bee complete sinecure by the Committee, and the list of those who had held these appointments went back as far as the year 15'24. Among the first was to be found the name of the Marquis of Dorset, and out of sixty Chief Justices, only five Commoners were, to be found. It would appear from an examination of the parti cular examplee that the argument in favour of those appointments had no force, as they had been always bestowed upon men of family or wealth. Among the Auditors of the Exchequer were to he found the names of Villiers and Grenville.—ln Scotland the argument for the abolition of sinecures bad no exception whatever. The - office of Lord Privy Seal had since the Union been held by nine Earls ; and out of thirteen persOns, who during the same period had held the office of Keeper of the Great Seal, all but one hart been Peers. it would thus a c a r t o ie w a i r iiia th Br , n at e t v h e e r means in the po ssess i on o f t h e been applied to the reward of ser vices, and that only a,few solitary instances could he adduced in favour of the argument. That ar gument had not been heard of before 1780, nor had it,been generolly mode use of till 1811. He would ask how came the Godolphin and the great men of former times to serve the public without looking to the rewards that were now stated to be indispensibly necessary to call forth great talents into action ? ,Money was now represented as the only motive, and the profession of it Statesman had degenerated into a Craft. It was fit that Gentle men called from the Bar to fill public offices should have some retnuneration. They went to the Bar for no purpose but to make money, and upon re tirement from place it was fit and proper that they should, be treated as professional men, and re ceive some remuneration, He would apply to theta the same principle as to officers or to clerks, Who after their services were put upon the half pay ; but Ministers should not be treated after the same manner as clerks or barristers. Had • Statesmen no higher views than pecuniary emo lument ? Had public opinion or public principle inieoaerit4tAinnedalivliansg Statesmen into flake ?--(gear, Anpiate:tii.iii tat rilaoetkinup? Was t i l t iis to t b o e be pi p .o r c o l c a l i a n in e i l e i proclaimed l o ic f polities as a trade ?—(Hear, bear I) vs public principlei,or opinion, Or high- Minded hommr did not call them into action, the deficiency of generous motives was to be made up by such is Bill as this ?—lt was by having ts r i a : C ci e hr tu l2l e i tn a t l l l e c t e l m S e t t a a t: s ntiri that raise Englandf above nays cit y , i n at i ti s is e oe t n l tshtleoy not tfha failed tyt dignified: in v i)g public place she n he w l i t i l o an sp l( en lg t war ?)..._tit,nreeserien W w as ra a ngling for office, and be office took up pelL—(llear, gross fraud or fallacy lurked ► i n the irgtitnent upon which the Bill was sup- ,I 1 itert 101 111 It ,------ _ lint e its, Fda — T tri----,J t f w eever it Chairman of the Committee (Mr. II Gni but he must •maintain, that the PrinciPle °I the Crown such compensation a the Bill pr beoi was a fraud , because the principle, as 'hewn, was not what it pretended to be. I lint to give to the Crown the means of callin (0 the public service men of little fortun great talent, anti of having their co.opere There was one classlatieed whose cooper it -would secure, lint who were the y ? tont the adherents of Government--notebut 111 office. Were such persons the only men what the State ? Was it necessary to pas s Si ol'i ti years in office to do thi s ? Every M e mber of ment laboured In the service of the countrytu p as r the m selvesii i ninciiepneo o ffi ce . ralt ti t 1) e othe r O r 'v a s e s r o v n i i l i y g business was conducted not only in offices the Constitution mos, that the in , the great Council of the nation,--(1 hear !)--J t was conducted as much by those 3 li tl e e ,co c u ld ntry eil opposed as by those who supported die men of Government. Systematic opposition rye a number of bad mosnres front pssingool° more from being proposed. Ws oct bjeion to Bill was, that it would tend to call forth a 0 of men devoted to the Government. PI f b ‘Napgb‘iv; e :ellool e cnert t iti t tlrtlilei(nlii r lai) e naebt a :nae t ylc i sio:a a leic t iPo i lti t iliiiri t l eel l t; la igeneren:tsro.rist:B6ll::liiilcroolneluskic.:(teeall itil:ll)i)it:ttiirilislvii°°:'loC;tell;hl:(lati';ll:lljicietiten'ell:(ll:!l°l 11):;1:617•11' no symptoms of any dearth of mos ready LI public situation. Ills objection, Oleo, tam% was, that it would only, enable the Croal i r ,apply this compensation. In place of 01' , couragetnent to apply talent to the ser vite c 1 , ,Stitc, it would proclaim to t he peo ple of sfif `that of fi ce was become a trade. . larMtrh.oltlAtr4l,el"ll°obus.eart%)-edi li.:canr'rednGnte:tilietnitteausiorit Brougham) should have found no objectio.ne 0 principle. of cotnpensation at the time iiit !...inkes) brought tile subject before a Cont . I: v ,. e thought the Peosiott List of Diglan,yo 'had not been increased since the year J 7 ; 0 1 witt,lstotyliog the decrease in the value t ) outoti,not be CailSidered eNtrAV43II/..„ ,floilli Lord A. HAMILTON.asked if there wa. - i ich rt its the present situation of the c oonttp 0 tiered it necessary to limit tile Crowil 1 „ o pt! Mr. Jou N SM supported YTPI the priocl e ;Bill. ~ ,„,. o ngilt Mr. DoLIGLAS thOUght the Cort101"—,(000,4 Ilii said how far the Crown had uhtoedAing beforet -- hey had judged it LIII worthy to beam ii trusted. .The House then divided, Majority in favour of the Oil! 0 void a l'ittoebdelfererrcrirceadn,oTur.aid.heilliodillaywel4t,t.tr::tgallueln ~..1, For the s it e .. ... ..... ............. .................. ReportTb into tdiel:rlealtiieoßii.epoArtcolatutsbee hmaorviendg bflystiorkesolifilli; liji,rottill,ll;:, 0,, bibs for u t d l d i Res h ey next. d coo" out a — Tubdirision e read a dried,„, The Newfoundland Marriage Dill Os r el- a' ~ Then the h . aving resolved into a -;lleir;b,un„d"'°l. ":40 in suras. of quPPiP Ite. ' 0 COI pnliontyinlonenotfofMcro.nAslitclt3c.l.Taft filott* ;01sarvi-- et r h a 're i n.bl n from New South 11 ales' - ,l,,r l i l tri r e e . }H, otheruoos ow K e resumed, tossrdoeNrs ,not; t ati d hae t t d i 1:0 1: 441 e :e, 1 : e la n ::: ::: a ill eeired to-morrow: 41.4) ic °it ,. bring l a - ,0 14 opening a carriage road from MillbaoU '''..' ed 01 1 - d e le House adjourned at eleven o'clock. -- _------- ----------- o,er LAW jNTM,LICiftio•-• 1' A 1 19' CO URT crF cliMitY,l4 ovEnA ilotisli• plaintiffshould opmayttre allowing the plaintiff" i day 001141111(4 t wassits versus TAYI-011* . i s t I Sir SA M UE L It into Court, 71,101',,a,„bs 0491 tp.illirchose4l°)eli et I al era-house ati l' 518ster's Report sbo 3l be sent boc"'" o!' d . Ilt, t 0.„,,/ for he. has ed .ion instea o r b l of lig on the concern. The Leari,ll/46 o f la observed, th that according to hold 37,uv caso to the atticifintio ii e purchase - money ought tots have Weal, deft Court.ll on the Ist of Decemb ; hil, ta 0 0 ' der of Court, to enlarge the time r ; OI,Pof Mt) put into Court to the 1 10 s ot the title, which be hirnoelf ° Dcr i i s ReP' oblige l y ; e i n p g l a i i t n i t ibe l c , tot( statit..eei: easyriailt pt., lictton to sale. The Master had allowed ill b'doe , several items which were provided f° ( oe i o f thi cree of the Court from another fund's , ° no rrie l Wee an annuity granted to- Mr: flot11,:r year, consideration of bis not allowing of Covent-Garden Theatre,. of 1501, P i 0 40 be performed at his Theatre. gr. 1 , poled I executed the deed and the Master load dot t item , in his Repor. Ile contentle°, opt plaintiff had -no right to withhold 611101,1 io she_ purchase-money. If it had b€clolote sou Court on the Ist ot December, the taa tioo have been much beurfited'from Pie l'"`c 1, . the funds.few' 1 , t iff, too- th Mr. HART, COtlitSCl for the il'a i. ite 00 I that Mr. Waters had a right to MO 1 00 were due to hitu from the concein.l...lll thc only putting him to the ex pence to nr,tl win. to PaY out the Looney after he bird pa, Sir SAmuet. Rostt.r.ir replied. dill r el ..: I he ic a ~.. wil The Loan, Cuitscut.t.on sao., 1 Allif 1 5 11l , ,/ t , the Decree, the Master's licPort' •'t! ' ilisfo• ()I Ad should decide according to th e . i i.,l t rot i case, as the parties see,„ea detertnit u justice to themselves. loliiinlrriri o, .---41"---- it: 'CC'''. 1301°... 0 coon. OV Kt , i • ~e C Oco t This being the last day of 'feral, !"i0,,, ill; occupied until a lee ',Our in thete:;:rev"inas P posing of the rules moved for l'i of the Term. Mr. Aryotr CAP 14 11°1 •of Cettioft) o brine flos moved for a II! idea and s " 'l3 the Record of Consiittioo, tencef.etiteaCe ()k this Deiciiitint, who to'l'oceli monthsa! the lost Clerkeipvell Se'sia'escorocti'l for midrPrisolitnent in the floose c", for' Ilight) wesex (bat enlarged at tbe :04(.110nt coma! for auk outrageons assaillt, vl,l jaiio " t . a rar, upon tbe bodY sl.l* .~+