The Sun. — London, England, 1847-03-06 00:00:00

• , IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, March 5. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack shortly after Five o'clock. NATIONAL EDUCATION. Lord BROUGHAM laid on the table a petition from James Bentley, of Aldgate Chambers, in the city of London, in reference to the subject of national educa tion, and said that the petitioner had been engaged in inquiries on the subject of his petition, and had acquired a great deal of information , tog ether with a vast amount of facts, which was well deserving attention. POOR-LAW IN IRELAND. Lord BROUGHAAI also presented petitions from the inhabitants of Cashel and of Thurles, in Ireland, com plaining of the mode of rating for the poor-law cess. Ihe Noble and Learned Lord stated that he had several similar petitions, with which he would not trouble their Lordships. CASE OF MRS. SHUT ILEWORTII. The NOI3LE AND LEARNED Loan:also laid on the table a petition from Dr.Quale, of Louvain College, in Belgium, and a member of the College of Surgeons, in London, zomplaining of the treatment of a lady named Shuttle worth, who had been removed from the custody of her friends and placed in a lunatic asylum. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. The Earl of CLARENDON presented a petition from the board of guardians of Tavistock against the the law of settlement, and praying to be empowered to give out-door relief to the unemployed poor. DISTRESS IN IRELAND. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition from the rate-payers of Ballinrobe, praying their Lord ships to adopt speedy measures for the relief of Irish distress. LABOURING POOR (IRELAND) BILL. The report on this Bill was brought up by the Earl of Shaftesbury. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, in giving no tice that this Bill would be read a third time on Mon day next, he might take that opportunity of stating to the Noble Lord (Brougham), in reference to his ques tion last night affecting Captain Wynne, that several papers and returns had been moved for in the other House of Parliament, and among the rest a return of all the names of the men who had been dismissed from the public employment, these amounting to about 1,000 or 2,000. Earl RADNOR-9,ooo.—(Laughter.) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—WeII, perhaps the return was not the more possible by the alteration.— (Laughter.) But h must say that Captain Wynne was still retained in the public service. Lord BROUGHAM was perfectly satisfied with the answer of the Noble Marquis, but he must say, that anything less in keeping with the case than the namee of the parties dismissed, he never heard ; in fact, it raised an entirely different issue. Earl RADNOR wished to know whether the Noble Marquis could state what prospect there was of a diminution being effected in the number of men em ployed on the public works in Ireland? The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was not the least surprised at the question put by his Noble Friend, and not at all surprised that much anxiety prevailed on the subject to which it hail reference. axe could assure his Noble Friend that ho participated in that anxiety. It undoubtedly had been the intention of the Government that the public works should be gradually discontinued; and the reason they had not carried out their intention was owing to the increasing destitu tion in Ireland, and the scarcity, or rather the absolute failure., of any other means by which they could gain their support. Another reason was the dif ficulty, or rather the impossibility, of carrying at once into operation those measures which the Govern ment had proposed as a substitute, one of which had recently been passed, and no time had been lost; in forming committees under the Bill. But if any new works were commenced a report of their nature and their object would be laid before their Lordships. He hoped that, at no distant period, a diminution in those public works would take place, and that steps would be taken to put an end to the abuses which had been stated to exist. Lord BROUGHAM entertained the same opinion as his Noble Friend (Earl Redner), as he considered they had got into a plan, the inevitable consequence of which was that it could not stop where it was. Lord MOUNTCASIIEL said it was to the interest of the landlords to diminish the expense of those works as much as possible, but when they found people dying on the road sides, in the fields, a n d i n wre t c h e d h ove l s , l ie anticipated that they would not act wisely if they stopped those works suddenly, and thereby deprived those of a subsistence who were at present employed. After a few words from Earl 11A.DNOR, the report was agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be r ea d a third time on Monday next. SECONDARY PUNISHMENTS—CUSTODY OF OFFENDERS AND PRISONS' BILLS. Earl GREY rose to move the second reading of the Custody of Offenders' Bill. The object of the Bill itself was but of little importance, being to assimilate the law of Ireland relating to offenders to the law as it existed on the subject in Great Britain. By the exist ir.g British law it was at the discretion of the Crown to send offenders either out of the country, to the prisons of Pentonville or Millbank, or to the hulks. But the power which the law of Great Britain gave to the Crown did not exist in Ireland; there was no power to dispose of off •n ders but to send them to Van Dieuian's Land or Norfolk Island. To effect the assimilation of the law of the two countries on this subject was the whole scope of the pre sent Bill. There was another Bill, the second reading of which ha also proposed to move to-night, but in itself it was not of much importance. The object of it was to effect a necessary change in the constitution of the go verning bodies of the prisons of Pentonville, Millbank, and Parkhurst. That though these Bills were not of much importance by themselves, he thought it right at the present time to call the attention of their Lordships to the whole subject of secondary punishments, because these were not the only legislative measures of the kind that would be required. The change which had taken place in the country's policy had no less an object in view than changing the whole system of punishment hitherto adopted—no less than the virtual abolition of transpor tation. By law, the Executive Government might make this change without applying to Pediment ; but considering the importance of the step, ho thought it better to bring the subject formally before the House, as he considered the Government would not be performing its duty in doing so without distinctly calling the attention of Parliament to it. There was no subject of greater importance than the treatment of felons. It was necessary for the existence of society that the punishments should be such as to deter offenders from the commission of crime, and at the same time such as were calculated to reform and improve the unhappy object of the punishment. This was the great ob ject that legislators had to keep steadily in view. These were objects of the highest importance, at the same time no less important was the difficulty of finding the remedy. It was a subject on which various plans had been adopted by the various civilised nations of the world, and he believed that nowhere could it be said that that great and difficult problem—the discovery of the best mode of reclaiming offenders that that ,great problem had received a complete and satis factory solution, But although the experience of late years, both in that and the other countries of Europe, enabled them to judge better than they could have done a few years ago what measures it would be the more expedient to adopt, they were still far, very far, from being in a condition to place the subject on a perfectly satisfactory footing. He had already stated that in the change which her Majesty's Government had determiued to introduce— had considered ought to be introduced—into the policy of the country, that change extended to no less than the virtual abolition of transportation, because when he said transportation, he did not include the punishment of offenders at Bermuda and Gibraltar. It was one of the main features of transportation, that in the majority of eases the persons on whom that sen tence had been passed, where parties were removed to a remote part of the world, at the termination of their sentences remained in the colony, and did not return to this country; thus the country was relieved of the presence of those criminals, which, as he had already said, was ono of the main objects of this punishment. But in Gibraltar and in Bermuda this was not the case ; on the contrary, criminals were not allowed to remain in those places, but were brought back to England at the public expense. The punishment at Gibraltar and Bermuda was therefore to be considered only as an extension of the hulk system, not as a punishment of transportation. It was only that a certain number of criminals who would have been otherwise sent to the hulks at Portsmouth and Woolwich, had been sent to Bermuda and Gi bralter, because their labour there was found exceedingly valuable to the country. But, defining in this manner what he meant by transportation, he said that they proposed to do away with the system of transportation as hitherto adopted. He could not be lieve that any of their Lordships who had road the late papers on this subject, and compared them with the papers of former years—that any of their Lordships who had looked at the measure adopted on this subject, would think that it was not an absolute necessity—he could not use a lighter word—an absolute necessity to effect the change of policy which the Government intended to adopt. Instead of a recapitulation of what had passed upon that subject, it would be enough to show their Lordships that such a necessity really existed. He would remind their Lordships that the system of transportation was Ze_r different formerly from that system which of late years existed. The convicts sent t.in New South Wales and Van Dieman's Land were not Kept n the charge of the Government, but they were sent to private individuals, to whom they were placed in the situation they were g — hemi t ght almost say—of slaves, because compelledregulations, wages serve those persons, when, accord ing to there w :le i were not allowed to be paid and they only received' neglect r l food and clothing, arid in the event of iailure or summary kind, orders their punish ment was of the most for they were flog ged by order of a magistrat e l' to all intents It was then existed and purposes a system of slavery in the colonies. In the year b l e S i a n 7 g a Committee, of which he had the honour o f member, was appointed in the other House of Parliament toconsiddeearl this subject. That Committee sat both the session o f 1837, and the following session, and it took a great of evidence on the subject. The result to whi c h the Committee came was, he thought, as well as he could re member, without a single difference of opinion among t h e Committee—which was numerous, and composed of Sir R. Peel, Lord John Russell, and various other gentle men—and it was most ably presided over by Sir W. Molesworth—was that there was an absolute neces sity for doing away with the system of assignment. The system was one of the grossest inequality and injustice, for it was a matter of perfect accident whether that which was intended to be in the nature of a punish ment, for if the man got a good master— ODO disposed to be indalgenb—he was not punished at 311. Criminals sentenced in this country for some most heinous offences, if they were good mechanics or workmen, instead of finding themselves worse off than they had been in this country, they found their situations infinitely improved. He remembered the case of some convicts sent from this country ; they were agricultural labourers sentenced in consequence of the riots of 1830, when so severe a ;distress existed in Kent and Dorsetshire. Many of them were extremely good agricultural labourers, and consequently their services were much sought after. When they were assigned their masters were extremely anxious to keep them in good humour ; and these men, whom the Government meant to punish, were far better off than they had ever been in England. The cause of these riots was the severe pressure and distress which existed ; and they who had been receiving 7s. or Bs. per week wages, and living en the most scanty diet, received the most enor mous rations out in their place of transportation. In some cases it was no punishment at all, while in other cases it was a punishment of the severest kind. In many cases the assigped convict was a frightful slave to his master, who, if he were brutal or urgent, might subject him to a continued system of annoyance and ill-treatment, and if he were stung into mu tiny and resistence, he was liable to be dragged before a ma gistrate, who, upon the representation of the master, sentenced him to the most cruel corporal punishment. The returns on this subject showed that this punishment was one of the great est suffering. This punishment was without its moral effect in deterring crime, while those, who from the circumstance he had described, were better treated, wrote to their friends, tell ing them how well they were off, and holding forth induce ment to them, to the commission of crime, to enable them to come out to them. When he was Under-Secretary for the Colonies he had opportunities of seeing several of these letters, which painted the condition of the writers in very glowing co lours. No doubt these representations were sometimes false, but their tendency was injurious. The Committee of 1838 had some to a determination that the system of assignment should be done away with, and a resolution to that effect was laid before the House of Commons. Measures were then taken to abolish that system, and it was determined that a much smaller number should be sent out than before. The system which Lord John Russell then proposed to introduce was to extend the system of imprisonment at home. But in 1841 it was moved that it was inexpedient that there should be such a number of convicts in the hulks. That motion was resisted on the part of the Go vernment, but it was carried by a great majority of the House of Commons. He believed this occurred when there were few in the House, and in the month of March, and it happened to wards the conclusion of the Melbourne Administration ; and no measure was adopted for carrying that resolution into effect during the Melbourne Administration. But there was a change of Government. It was determined that the views of the House of Commons should be acted upon, and after a good deal of discussion, it was decided that the convicts should be sent abroad, except a comparatively small number, such as were more proper subjects of the discipline of Pentonville, Parkhurst, and the hulks, and those whose age made it expedient to send them out of the country ; but the rest were sent either to the Bermudas or to Norfolk Island. In consequence of that measure a large number were sent to these parts. He confessed that at the time he entertained the strongest convictions that this would lead to a very great evil, that great mischief would result to those colonies unless there was a system for carrying on pu nishment adequate to the occasion. Their Lordships would remember, too, that at that great distance from the control of Government, anything unusual, or requiring attention, could only receive that after a year's delay and writing home to the Government. Looking at that their Lordships must feel that the difficulty of carrying out a system of penal labour was great indeed. In 1843, therefore, although previously the system had been adopted to a considerable extent, a large number of convicts were yet to be sent abroad. If, however, he said transportation to Van Dieman's Land had been confined to a small number of persons, he believed that the impression produced on the imagination of men respecting punishment inflicted by society, and at a dis tance, and the regret of being lost sight of by their friends would have counterbalanced the evil, in a great measure, of carrying out that system of punishment at a distance. But when this system was still applied generally—not to a few hundreds, as proposed originally, but to many thousands—when a system of this kind was carried out in Bermuda, he believed it was utterly impossible that any other result could have been anticipated than that which actually occurred. Now, he thought the papers which had been lately laid on the table would prove to their Lordships that the anticipations which had been formed with respect to this system were but too well founded ; but he would not disgust their Lordships by the horrible, the monstrous details of the abuses which had sprung up in Norfolk Island. A state of things had been proved, upon evidence, to exist there, the particulars of which could not be doubted by the general effect of that evidence, which made it perfectly clear that a system had been allowed to grow up in that small island, the details of which, were too horrible to mention.—( Hear.) It had been proved to the dis grace of the British name, that a system existed there which was a disgrace to the British flag. Very shortly after he was appointed to the office which he had the honour to hold, he found that the condition of Van Dieman's Land was so con clusive against any continuation of the system, that he in structed the new Governor, before he left this country, to break up the establishment there, and he was happy to find that his predecessor (Sir E. Wilmot) had anticipated that order, as he had taken measures to break up the convict esta blishments in the island. The fearful outbreak in the island would perhaps have been successful, had not some troops op portunely arrived ; had they not, they might have over powered the small body of troops, and destroyed the free in habitants of the colony. The breaking up of the establish ment was, therefore, inevitable; but he was concerned to state that Van Dieman's Land was not in a much better state ; it was in a state fearful to enter into, and those of their Lordships who had looked at the evidence could not fail to be dissatisfied with the present condition of that colony. He had often heard of the abuses of the hulks, but he must say the worst of them was well managed compared with the colony of Van Dieman's Land. Ho had ;very evidence that the system was as bad as it could well be. For though the governor and superinter.dents of the colony did not altogether support this extreme view of the state of things, Sir Eardley Wilmot and Sir John Franklin, admitted that the system was most injurious. From other quarters he had received accounts to a similar effect. Last year the Noble Lord the President of the Council presented a petition signed by the Bishop of the colony and a great number of the most respectable inhabitants, calling attention to the deplorable state of things. It was signed by from 1,700 to 1,800 of the colonists, who described in the strongest terms the condition to which the colony had been reduced, and that there was no security for life and property. He had also seen within the last few months persons from the colony who, to the fullest extent, supported this view of the state of things. He had seen the Protestant Bishop, as well as the Roman Ca tholic Bishop, and both the Right Reverend Bishops stated that the future prospects of the colony were frightful to con template. Then, with regard to the expenditure which had , been necessary to effect this system of transportation, it was so large, that he was convinced, had it been applied under a well conceived system of em ploying the convicts in this country, it would have been sufficient to erect places of punishment of the best character for those who offended the laws. Under the present system the coleny had been almost ruined. But further, he was forced to say that in consequence of this system it was too true that a great many of the most valuable settlers in Van Dieman's Land had been forced to quit. A most serious blow had been given to the property of the colony by this large in flux of convicts which was pi,ured into it. Van Dieman's Land had been formerly a thriving and prosperous colony, but from the time that this enormous influx of convicts was poured into it, the state of things was greatly altered. He was far from attributing that change to that circumstance alone. Ile knew that commercial distress existed in this country—that there was a reaction from over speculation, and from various other causes of that kind. No doubt the distress in Great Britain had assisted the change in the colony, but it was also certain that the system of sending large numbers of con victs to Van Dieman's Land was one cause of the failing in that prosperity. And it had been said that the deterioration in that colony was not so much owing to the system as to the inability of the persons by whom that system had been carried out ; it had been said that a greater degree of energy on the part of the principal officers, to whom the Go vernment had committed the superintendence of Vass Dieman's Land and Norfolk Island and instructed the management of the convicts, would have produced a different result. He could not adopt that opinion. In the first place, her Majesty's Go vernment had the choice of the agents to whom that superin tendence was committed ; but, without pretending to deny that there might have been faults on the part of the authorities —a question on which he did not wish to give any opinion either one way or the other—but without pretending to deny that such might have been the case, he still was strongly of opinion that it was impossible for them in the difficult position in which they were placed to have carried out this system so as to have led to a satisfactory result, because, if their Lord ships would allow him to remind them, the carrying into effect the system of penal labour had always been found most diffi cult and unsatisfactory, whether that system had been tried in the colonies of this country or in America. Whether it had been tried in this country or in America, it had always been found that any system of punishment hitherto adopted had met with very great difficulties and obstructions. It Lad already appeared that these difficulties and obstructions had been multiplied tenfold when the system had to be worked by a delegated authority, removed to as great a distance as Van Dieman's Land, or Norfolk Island, from this country. And from those who had the responsibility of carrying into effect, and ordering the system, and who should look well into the practical operation. It should be closely watched from day to check e d ; an d w h en any errors arose—and errors day; and w h enever a b uses seemed to be rising, they should he instantly were inseparable from a system of the kind—correction should be instantly made by those in authority. Such an authority as the Lieutenant-Governor of Van Dieman's Land could not be sufficient ; for, in the first place, he was bound to consult his inferior officers, and the Deputy. Governor, before he could make any material alteration of the plans or made any material change, was bound to wait until ho could receive authority from home to the purpose. In Norfolk Island this was still nearer the case. The administrator of punishment in Norfolk Island was the delegate of a delegate. The Governor of Van Die man's Land was the authority to whom he immediately looked, and over him was her Majesty's Government at home. The communication between Van Dieman's Land and Norfolk Island was very irregular and slow, and it was kept up by sailing vessels, so that the opportunities of communication were very rare, and in Norfolk Island, there being no free inhabi tants, so that if any of the officers there found anything going wrong, there was no means of obtaining any improvement ex cept by the slow process of appealing to the separate authori ties at Van Dieman's Land or here. Again, one of the great dif ficulties of any good system of punishment was the difficulty of finding proper agents to carry on the executive part. When he spoke of proper agents, he meant more especially the subor dinate agents. Most of their Lordships had had more or less knowledge of the means by which prisons were conducted in this country, and they all knew that the efficiency of a prison discipline depended almost as much upon the inferior officers as upon the governors: If they had not trustworthy officers it was impossible for the best governors to carry on a good sys tem of discipline. In Van Dieman's Land there was great difficulty in obtaining trustworthy officers ,• and that diffi culty was infinitely greater than over here. In Norfolk Island it was greater still. In the first place, it was impossible, be cause the scale of remuneration was much higher there than it was in this country, and the salary which in this country would secure the services of a first-rate person in his rank of life would, in the colonies, be wholly insufficient. Their Lordships were aware that even the lowest artificers received very high wages in the colonies, and many of those persons who had been sent out by the Government as officers over the convicts had been tempted out of the service by the superior offers made to them by merchants to go to them in the capacity of clerks. Even supposing that the Government were to go t') a greater expense than it did at present, it would then find almost the impossibility of obtaining proper agents for their were not . g re. h But now that in smaller colonies, like Van Dieman's pules, very high , he was afraid party spirit and party division ran Y ,It was extremely difficult to get overseers who or ionueennceerfaillbyv oi;perlicettnedsideriantiontshewsehichlocnaalturad ie. lly ❑ vernor had n o t the same seers who might be in,e operate o n t h e latama . Puoionidn; fafinedee to remove any of the s e over seers as existed a t h ome . H e At the same time the go of st a a e t t was alway s li a bl e t o b e a e .ce s r whi i ch would nat ura lly imt a c diat e e a i r case ; thus de could only suspend hi re suspendi ng an reversed by the Secr e t ary Besides, if an oversee r died, it was induce him to proceed only on i p n r e i v in in c g aeio h u im s fu o n f e ti t o h n e ary. power Besoidf ongest term for an offence of the gravest character. Lord BROUHAM.—Eighteen months continuously? Earl GREY.—Yes, continuously. The medical officers of Pentonville had watched narrowly the effect of fhe punish ment of separate confinement, and they reported that eighteen months was safe. Mr. 13rodie and Dr. Ferguson had re ported that separate confinement could not be continued be yond eighteen months ; it was safe within that time, and that with due care over the condition of the patient, as the period advanced, it might be inflicted with safety. It was clear, however, that if separate confinement should be adopted that alone would fall short of the object, in ;the case of an offender guilty of a grave offence. Let them take, for instance, a case of aggravated manslaughter, where the jury has hesitated whether they ought to convict the man of murder or of manslaughter, and when the man was sentenced to trans portation for life, it was clear in that case that eighteen months separate confinement would be very inadequate. It was pro posed, therefore, under separate confinement that every of fender should undergo a further punishment by labour on the public works. Ile was aware that mode of punishment was liable to great objections. Formerly it was carried on in the hulks, and it laboured under great objections, and these, too, very just. But he could not help thinking that these objections append rather to the manner than the nature of that punish ment.—(Hear, hear.) He did not believe that penal labour, when the offenders were allowed to associate together, had a tendency to raise any such objection as had been taken. The objection to the system formerly adopted was, that coercion by the lash was the only thing which the prisoners in the hulks had to fear, and the superintendence on board those ships was most inadequate from the want of a sufficient number of offi cers. The whole system, in short, required very great im- Frovement ; but of late years many improvements had been effected, and they would be carried much further. Now they proposed that convicts should be employed on the public works under a system by which he hoped the evils which generally arose by the associating together of large bodies of convicts would be, to a very great extent, remedied. In the first place, it would certainly contribute to this end that each con vict would undergo a preliminary and sepal ate period of con finement, and except upon the most hardened, that period of confinement would make an impression upon their minds which would greatly facilitate the maintenance of a proper system of discipline after their liberation, and employment upon the public works ; but if a convict misconducted himself on the public works he would render himself liable to be sent back to undergo a further period of punishment by imprisonment. But what he looked at, as a matter of extreme impor' once, was the system under which the public works were to be carried on. Their Lordships were, no doubt, aware of the plan proposed with this view by Captain Maconochie, but the trial which was made of it under his own superintendence was very far from successful ; it was right to state that he attributed its failure to the difficulties which lie had to encounter, and which, he said, would not occur for the future ; but looking at the experiment which had been made, and relying upon the judgment of those who had had much experience in the subject of criminal dis cipline, he (Earl Grey) could not help stating that he was im pressed with the conviction that the plan of Captainafaconochie, as proposed by himself, could not be practically carried into effect. Still he thought there was much in his suegestions which was valuable, and that his fundamental plan was good. It was this, that convicts should be employed on public works, or to be subject to a system by which they should have a great and direct interest in their own good conduct and industry, not only in the abridgment of the period of their sentence, but in the enjoy. ment of certain immediate advantages. He (Earl Grey) was convinced that this was an essentially sound and good plan, but it was one which had been already tried, as at Bermuda and Gibraltar the convicts had a direct interest in the labour which they performed, and was found to be of the greatest possible value, as it not only paid the expense of their maintenance and ,uperintendence, but left a considerable annual surplus besides. In Gibraltar the gain of a convict for four years was some - ' - where about 421., or about IW. a year, and this was effected with the best results to the colony. Where the value of the work was small, as in Van Dieman's Land, they were naturally led to the conclusion that the system was lax ; but where, as in the case of Gibraltar, they find the labour of the convicts producing this result, they might naturally con clude that the system in force was a good one. Hitherto the means of release had been dependent upon a convict's good con duct, as a person who behaved himself well whilst on board the hulks, stood a chance of being recommended to have his liberty guaranteed to him. No doubt labour upon the public works in the way he had pointed out, would be found most valuable as a punishment. With respect to the period for which a person was to be employed on the public works, it was intended that every man who really conducted himself well, who was industrious, and who did not do anything which would subject him to fresh punishment, shall be able to obtain his liberty at the expiration of about one-half the period of his sentence. This rule had been acted upon in the Hulks, and transportation for life was commuted into twenty-one years' banishment; or that if he conducted himself well who was transported for coven years, might obtain his discharge after three and a half or four }ears banishment. In continuing this system they intended to retain what he thought was the real advantage in the former system of transportation, for it was not without compensating advantages. In this country a man who had his character blasted by undergoing punishment, found at the expiration of his sentence, however good his in tentions, however strong his desire to give up his criminal ha bits, and to return to a life of honest industry, that there were yet difficulties in the way of his accomplishing his purpose (Hear, hear)—as almost every description of employ ment was closed against him, and wherever he went to seek employment, he found others selected instead of him ; and therefore, however strong this good intention might be, he was frequently driven by absolute distress again into the commission of crime. —(Hear, hear.) The case was different in the colonies, as there was a great demand for labour. In New South Wales many convicts who had obtained tickets of leave had amassed large fortunes—in fact, in many in• stances this had been carried to an extent which was in jurious ; therefore they proposed, that during the latter period of his employment, he should be allowed wages nearly the full value of his labour, but that it should be retained, with the exception of a small portion to encourage him in his pre sent efforts, until the expiration of his sentence, in order that he might have the means of emigrating ; and, following up, as far as possible, the system in force in the colonies, it was proposed that those who had secured the means of paying their way to the colonies, and who had conducted them selves well, should receive a conditional pardon, the condition being that they should not remain in England. The plan was in force in Van Dieman's Land. and was this— that a convict, when he received a conditional pardon, might go where he liked, but that he must no t re t urn to England until his term had expired. Generally they had no wish to do so, as they found it would be more advantageous to them to stop in the colony. He was encouraged to hope that this system would be attended with the beat results, judging from the condition of the exiles who had been sent to Port Philip from Pentonville Pri son. Those who had gone to Van Dieman's Land had not suc ceeded se well, on account of the state of the color.y, and from the difficulty of obtaining employment, owing to the immense number of convicts who had congregated there ; in fact, they had increased to such an extent, as to render it necessary for the Government to maintain them, and the last return showed that there were no less than 3,000 awaiting hiring in probation gangs. It was not, however, proposed that the men should go out without their families. It was true that to those who left Pentonville this was not allowed, as they had undergone but a short period of imprisonment; but when, after a long imprisonment, they were sent abroad, and could by their earnings, take their families with them, they would be allowed to do so; and to this he (Earl Grey) attached the utmost importance, as this would, in a great measure, do away with the disparity in the sexes which existed in many of our colonies ; and if the Go vernment did not allow it, they stood without ex cuse. The thought, also, that the sojourn in this country would give time for teaching those who were ignorant to read and write and to acquire some trade which might be useful to them in the colony, so that they would have a class of persons going to their colonies who would be found of great advantage. He hoped also that they would be sent out in such a way in which they would not be recognised as criminals on their ar rival at their destination. They would go as paid passengers on board the ordinary emigrant ships amongst other emigrants, so that they would not be recognised from those on their ar rival, or if they were, they would soon overcome any prejudice which might be created against them. It was right to state, that at a meeting recently held at Port Philip, it was urged that advantage would accrue by sending more exiles to that part of New South Wales. Where parties would become responsible for the future conflict of the convicts, they would be liberated on leaving the public works, instead of being sent out of the colony, as this plan of emi gration did not partake of a penal character. The next point was when the proposed alterations would be carried into effect. From information he had received, ho found that in the course of the present year, it was calculated that means were already available for the separate confinement of the prisoners. In addition to the accommodation which the Pen tonville, Parkhurst, and Millbank prisons would afford, the prisons in the various counties would, when not fully tenanted, be available for this purpose, as the support of the prisoners was now paln', by the State, and not out of the county rates. But this duration only applied to Great Britain as in Ireland, he was sorry to say there was not the required accommodation for the separate confinement of the convict, but no time would be lost in providing the necessary receptacles. Prisons, on the plan of the Pentonville prison, were prepared. With regard to the reception of the convicts, after the completion of their confinement, he might state that it would be necessary to use the hulks as at present, but nothing would be left undone to improve them. A great deal had been recently done in the appointment of additional officers, and in the promotion of a better discipline than heretofore; yet he admitted after all that the hulks were most imperfect prisons, and that re ceptacles on shore should be provided in lieu of them. Wooden m b g i h d t i n b g e s r w e e m r e o v i e n d f t r he om c p s) l u a r e s e e t o o f placeb e i n g im erected,the ro s s t c t n h a t of t hey the public works required. The Duke of WELLINGTON—Why not of iron? Earl GREY—The Noble Duke inquired why they were not to be constructed of iron. He would inform him that wood, in the opinion of engineers, would be both cheaper and more ad vantageous. The convicts could be employed in quarrying stones and in labouring at harbours of refuge, which the Noble Duke was so anxious to see carried out. Such were the measures which the Government proposed with regard to the male convicts. It was necessary that they should observe that he had confined himself in all the observations to adult male convicts. With respect to the female convicts, it was intended, for the present, that they should continue to be sent to Van Dieman's Land. Considerable pains had been taken in improving and establishing, for the reception of female convicts, proper places in Van Dieman's Land. There was not much difficulty experienced in dispoing of them, and, therefore, at present, it was proposed to continue sending them there. With respect to the class of juvenile offenders, some considerable modification of the system he had endeavoured to describe to their Lordships, would be necessary. On that subject it was inexpedient that they should then enter. It would be necessary that their Lordships' attention should be called to it at a very early period, and therefore, for the present, they might dispense with all reference to that head. What he had stated applied to the prison discipline which it was pro posed to adopt with respect to the male adult convicts. Such were the measures upon which her Majesty's Government had come to a general change of policy; he had endeavoured to describe it as it would be adopted. He had no farther ob servations to make, and in conclusion, he would beg their Lordships to assent to the second reading of the Bill before them. Lord BROZIGHAM said that nothing could be more see is. factory to him than to express his entire approval, and, indeed, he might say, his admiration of the clear, distinct, and candid statement made by his Noble Friend who had just sat down. lie would not then enter upon the large subject opened to the attention of their Lordships, further than simply to state that some doubt remained upon his mind with respect to the main object of the Noble Earl's remarks—the total abolition of transportation. He came entirely to the same result from an examination, not only of the evidence, respecting the subject this Bill referred to, but from a long course of observation and experience in the public service in that respect, and from exa mining with great attention all the high authorities upon that important branch of criminal jurisprudence. He had come to the same concluiion, generally speaking, regarding that branch of penal infliction, that punishment by transportation ought to cease. Some doubts rested on his mind, which he had some unwillingness to mention, on this subject, the much-to-be lamented father of the Noble Earl, who brought forward this subject, having been addressed by Archbishop Whateley, in au able pamphlet, entitled " A Letter to Earl Grey upon the sub ject of Transportation, ' and published in 183:e. He (Lord Brougham) agreed with the opinion ex pressed by the Archbishop, with one exception, namely, he was unwilling to give up transportat ion absolutely and entirely in all cases. Ile had great doubts if it would be safe in certain cases—these eases being the exception, and by no means the rule—that in certain cases of peculiar description that punishment might advantageously be retained. The great objection to transportation—politically and economically—was not the objection to which reference had been made. Ile could state that in the penal colonies it was not difficult to find a place in which the sentence might be safely executed. The great objection was the nature and the incurable inequality of the punishment. To one person it was a very grave punish ment—the greatest punishment, perhaps, next to death. To other persons it wore a very different aspect—the aspect only of terror, dislike, and aversion —and, to a third class, it was really little or no punishment at all. The great objection to transportation as a suitable punishment was, that it could not be inflicted in the nature of a punishment. It was never to be lost sight of, however, inasmuch as they still considered it as a punishment, and it might have some effect in deterring by example. The aspect of a punishment was various to various individuals, and it might be used for the purpose of deterring some from crime —as the aspect made so great a difference in its nature. example. provided even Capital in a fe punishment casc's it as to alter it entirely. Th ey were a b out to a b an d on transpor tation absolutely a n d a lt oget h er, b ut h e was qu i te cer t a i n th a t they ought not r as hly t o g i ve up any means o f p un i s h men t, was they lse y al t l o p k r n o e d w u cea and dffetcht thought s g an t ought to be very sparingly inflicted, and some thought that it ought to be abolished altogether. lie differed from those per ons who held the last opinion, and agreed with those who thought it ought to be sparingly inflicted. Nevertheless lie could not give up capital punishment as a means of deterring others, because there might be only three or four periods of the ) ear in which they could find a proper subject to whom the capital infliction ought to be applied. He would not give up any punishment, although only applicable to a few instances, provided it produced a beneficial effect ; and for that reason he was, upon the whole, doubtful whether they ought to abandon transportation —not as a punishment to be carried out upon every offender, but y et it might be pos sible to make it of use in certain cases, although in a very limited number of instances. He thought that the objection of the Noble Earl that the punishment was one of great inequality in its operation, was well founded, but the few cases to which he alluded, that objection would not apply. He should not, upon the whole, think it safe to confine it to persons of an inferior rank of life, bat rather to those of a superior class. He had reason to think that to persons of that description, it must be the most awful punishment that could be inflicted next to death. It might have afforded a strong example in the case of a malefactor who perished some years ago for forgery ; that would have been a proper case for the in fliction of transportation. A great malefactor had not very long since been punished by his Noble Friend opposite (Lord Denman), and to persons of that description and class such a sentence was next to death. It was the greatest which could be inflicted upon persons such as the recivers of stolen goods, who carried on their detestable trade—a trade about which the law, and the administrators of the law, were universally and perpetually in conflict. The traffic carried on by these persons was driven with a certain capital—in fact, they were persons of no little resources in point of money—they were persons who, outwardly to the eyes of the world, had a certain standing and appearance of respectability in society. To such persons it would almost be as bad as to any person in the highest rank of life to have denounced against them the sentence of trans portation for fourteen years, or for life, for their offences. These offences were the very " pabulum"—the root—the source from whence the various depredations committed by thieves—thieves of all ages and descriptions —sprung. His Noble Friend, who was in the same profession as himself, must remember well many cases painful to contemplate, in which he had seen bankruptcies, and absolute insolvency and ruin of the respectable trader, from the lacilities of disposal which these receivers possess without any doubt, and enabled the servants and apprentices to commit depredations from week to week upon their employers. He could not help feeling that for some such culprits as these, to whom that punishment was a terror, lie should be somewhat reluctant to F accede to the abandonment of the punishment of transporta tion. He had another observation to make with regard to the Noble Earl's statement, for it contained one point with which he did not agree, and that was with respect to deportation. He did not attempt to oppose it, but he would throw out rather a suggestion for consideration. The first observation of the Noble Earl on the subject had left him rather in doubt and difficulty as to the manner of inflicting the sentence of depor tation. It appeared that a person, after he had gone over his term of penal labour, and might be supposed to be nearly, if not quite, reformed, was to be sent to Australia in an emigrant ship. They were told that lie was not sent out as a punish ment, but in order to remove him from the society he had dis graced. If the convict were to be allowed to go voluntarily, could regard t in no then he might go wh ither he would, but i f not he could under stand that the rem oval was onl y to be a part of the punishment to be inflicted, and that th e conv i ct was only liberated from labou r. If the convict were to be told that the fact was the s ame , an d h e had no juvenile the moment he got out of his term of his penal labour he must go whether he wil l or o offenders er h s im wo se u l l f d have h e a e it t e n other light ; althoug h the lan g ua g e used might not be that ofes s to make a t answer, command, and altho u g h the convict mi g ht be told that it was n 1 0 l u f b or i a s t o ve w r n 4d' n Iwish you would e m pl oy i t upon your . y, your self, and not upon me.' If they were expected to go as emi grants in an emigrant ship, his Noble Friend would find that they would, probably from their station and manners, be dis covered to have been convicts, and they would not be very long on board before a line would be drawn across the deck —one side of the ship being . found for emigrants, and the other for emigrant convicts. With regard to the system of exile there could be no doubt about it. He could not conceive it possible that in the year 1847 they were about to revive and restore that old abandoned, that entirely abandoned, punishment of the Scotch law—banishment forth of Scotland, with re spect to which Sir George Mackenzi4 had written nearly one hundred and twenty years ago:—lt was clearing out their malefactors to send them to their neighbours ; but play at that Sam©—(A lau gtwo could h )—and their neigh bours could send over their convicts to this country. Mr. Alison had also written, about a year ago, upon this ex ploded punishment, which was repealed in the reign of George the Fourth, and which hail long been recorded as a law of barbarism, and only fit for the infant stages of society. Cer tainly they could not avoid calling the plan the punishment of exile, because they merely said that it was for the good of the person, whom they did not even allow to choos e hi s p l ace of residence. As soon as the penal sentence was over—as soon as the labour was over —the remaining part of the sentence was to be that he should go abroad. They state it to be no part of the sentence, and yet it was compulsory upon the criminal, who was to be compelled to go, and to be told that it was only to prevent him from offending again. According to that they might say that the infliction of death might be no part of a punishment, because it would effectually prevent the prisoner from offending again.—(A laugh.) They might say to a cri minal in his last moments— " It is not a punishment, we are only going to remove you "—as the surgeon said with regard to a limb—(Laughter)—" We are only going to remove your head; it is no punishment. We are only going to remove you from society, that you are not likely to err again. It is true we remove you by inflicting a wound , which you are not likely easily to get over, but we hinder you from again offending."— (Laughter. ) The same observation would apply to the sys tem of compulsory exile. If they were to go away only by the aid of the Government, they would, in all probability, go to the nearest place, w hich was Calais, and th«n they would perhaps return. Andhow were they to prevent that? A Liverpool mars might go up to London, and a London man to Liverpool What would the Custom-house say when they heard the an swer to the question of" What cargo have you brought—wheat, sugar, or cotton ?" The reply would be—" No, no, we have a cargo of convicts."—( Laughter.) They would be .eked— " What kind of goods are those ?" And the persons on board would in the best French they could muster say, " They were highway robbers, forgers, and perjured persons—people who have broken all the statutes of the law, but they were all re formed.—(Laughter.) He suspected that these kinds of car goes would meet with a pretty high prohibitory duty in France. They would be apt to say that they could not allow them to come there, and if they were to send them their convicts the French people would adopt the principle of reciprocity and would send over all their convicts to this country—( Laughter) —and that proceeding he did not think likely to increase the benefit of the entente cordiale.—(Loud laughter. ) Consider ing these difficulties he did feel a little astonished at the at tempted introduction of an ancient and exploded law. There was, however, one further consideration, namely, that this plan could never be adopted or adhered to. He assured them that it never could be. He did not think that anything so preposterous would ever be adhered to, as a plan for turning upon the French shores all our convicts, after a certain period of labour. In introducing a cargo of such people to any place, what conversation would take place—for instance, with the Mayor of Calais they would have to admit what they were. They would have to say, '‘ These people have com mitted various crimes, but they are at present nearly or quite reformed, and we have just brought them over." The chaplain of the penitentiary would say, "Oh ! they are reformed—they are very excellent people, they are very worthy and good peoples they have committed robberies and forgeries, but they are in process of reformation." The Mayor of Calais would ne cessarily say, 1' We have here plenty of excellent people amongst ourselves ; pray keep them, for we do not want them ; we have plenty of the best people of Europe in every rank of crime and degree of reformation. We do not want any impor tation of worthy and good persons upon our side of the water, but if you do leave them we shall order—with the view of keeping up the entente cordiale—some very good people of ours to be sent to you." That would be one of the effects of intro ducing this obsolete penalty of banishment. There was ono instance of its having been tried of late years, and that was when one of six Acts was introduced. With the aid of his Noble Friend opposite, who was then with him in the other House of Parliament, he had done all he possibly could to prevent it from passing. They moved heaven and earth to effect their object, but they were defeated. The principle of that Bill was not so objectionable as the principle of the present one—it was for the purpose of sending away political libellers. The people of France might not object to a political libeller, but they might object to the carrying over a cargo of ruffians from all parts of St. Giles's. That Act, however, was never once put in force ; ; and not one single instance of the prosecution of a political li- beller occurred under it. The other parts of the statement made by the Noble Lord were very satisfactory, particularly I that relating to the improvement of prisons and prison disci pline. The improvement of prison discipline would cause con siderable expense; but the more they examined the subject the more they would be of opinion that very considerable and, he might say, lavish expenditure of the public money would be required, and better it could not he expended than for the purpose of providing fit gaols. One of the causes of the want of good prison discipline was the want of good prisons; and he hoped much time would not elapse before he would see a considerable addition to the number of gaols— each gaol accompanied by the means of proper and efficient industrial employment, either in the gar den or field, prison diseipline could only be perfected, and the reformatory process could only be completed by such a plan. If they talked of expense it was a monstrous absurdity, and grossly inconsistent, for they were daily expend ing thousands, and he might say hundreds of thousands on mat ters of less importance than the one under consideration. They were about to abolish tranportation generally, even if they retained it in the few instances in which he thought it ought to be retained, and the abolition of it up in the large scale upon which it had hitherto been conducted, would place at their disposal 600,0001. per annum—for the present cost of their penal colonies was actually 600,000/. If they abolished transportation upon the larger scale, and retained it upon the smaller scale, as applied to individuals as seldom as possible, they would retain a large revenue, out of which they could without the least difficulty construct gaols ; and even penal farms and gardens, with less expense, than they at present calculated upon. He was very glad to hear the Noble Earl's accounts from Gibraltar,—indeed, it exceeded his best expectatiens,— for he had no idea that anything so good had been effected. The Noble Earl stated that between 10/. and 12'. was the annual g in up n the work of one convict at Gibraltar, above the expense and co,t of his maintenance and clothes ; the ex pense of his carriage there being alone excepted. That re port was very gratifying. Earl GREY—That does not include the expense of his transportation and various other charges. Lord BROUG HAM—It included his maintenance, clothing, and lodging ; and above that was earned the sum of 42/. in four years, from this actual profit of his labour. It was a most satisfactory result, and he gave his best wishes to the system which inculcated such industrious habits upon the part of the prisoners. He had devoted a great portion of his time to this subject, and he had thought it proper to trouble the House with these remarks, and, in conclusion, he begged to express his acquiescence in the Bill proposed by the Noble Earl. Lord STANLEY said that he was quite aware that there were many Members in their Lordships' House who were more competent to address themselves to this question than he was, but he trusted that, from the position which he had had the honour of holding, he would be excused if he trespassed for a short time upon their attention. He was the more anxious to take this opportunity, because, if he rightly understood his Noble Friend, this was the last opportunity which was likely to be affording their Lordships of expressing their opinions upon the subject. This Bill proposed to substitute a better system of secondary punishment for that which had hitherto existed ; but he could not help thinking that her Majesty's Government, in their efforts to limit the extent of the evil, had too readily adopted a new principle, and too hastily departed from a system which appeared to him (Lord Stanley) most valuable, however subject it might have been to abuses. He had, at the same time, to express his regret, if he had correctly interpreted the announcement of the Government, that this was the last opportunity in which Parliament could interfere, because, although it was perfectly true that it was compete n t for the Governor in authority at the colonies to mitigate the punishment, although competent for the judges in this country to pass sentence of imprisonment in lieu of transportation, and therefore so far to effect an alteration in the penal system, still, it did appear to him that to introduce these great—these very extensive—these important, and in his opinion most doubtful measures, there should have been something more than a mere announcement of the intentions of the Government, there ought to have been a something more than a trifling discussion in this or both Houses of Parliament. Such a measure as this should not, be carried without the sanction of an Act of Parlia ment defining in the clearest manner who were to be the subjeCts affected by the measure, and the extent of punishment to be affixed to each degree of crime. He was afraid that too much haste was not only observable on this but on all former occasions on which this important ques tion had been considered, and he could not help entertaining the greatest dseibt of the prudence of abrogating altogether the punishment of transportation. He believed that it was con ceded by almost all who had taken the trouble of considering this subject, that transportation, as a secondary punishment, impressed the criminal with more terror than any other mode or degree of punishment. He believed that many of the most hardened culprits who would hear with perfect indifference a sen tence of 18 months' imprisonment, to be afterwards commuted to labour in public works, would look with very different feel ings on a sentence of transportation for a period of 21 or 14, or even 10 years. lie believed that however faulty in practice the system at present in existence was, it capable of being worked advantageously for the pur poses of reformation as well as of punishment. The Noble Lord opposite had correctly stated that in this punish ment much depended on the charac' er of the convict himself, and much on the temper of the master to whom he might have been assigned, and while to some this would be hardly any punishment at all, to others it would be a severe one. His ( Lord Stanley's) conviction was, that if after a petiod punishment by labour in the colonies, there had been the means of distributing among the scattered population of so large a continent as that of New South Wales, these labourers—if facilities had been given for allotting them to free emigrants— men possessed of property—if there had been proper facilities given for distributing the convict population, after they had undergone the severe ordeal of punishment which Government had commanded—if such facilities had been given, he believed that great good might have been accom plished, and that many and singular advantages would accrue to the character, the dispositions, and the welfare of the indi viduals who had been subjected to that punishment. He re gretted to think, that not only were hasty steps taken by the Committee which sat in 1827, but that still more hasty steps were taken in 1840, when her Majesty's Government, without any previous preparation, at once announced that transportation to New South Wales was immediately to (lease. lie thought they had then sacrificed a great advantage when they threw up as a penal settlement a colony large as the continent of Europe, —a colony to which they might have transported a great mass of crime, which it was of the first importance should be sent from their shores. Even his Noble Friend, in the plan which he that evening submitted ti their Lordships, admitted the necessity of removing this mass of evil from their country. He ( Lord Stanley) did not mean to deny that great and serious inconveniences had arisen to the colony of Van Dieman's Lind, from the extent to which transportation had been carried, in consequence of the declare fion of Government that New South Wales should no longer be a penal settlement, and that Van Dieman's Land should be the only and single point to which that tide of vice and depravity should flow in future. But this inconvenience was immediately aggravated by the unfortu nate coincidences of the period in which the operation of the new system was first commenced. At the period when the new system was first introduced, there was every reason to believe that as the convicts came out from the first step of punishment, namely, from the probation gang, they would be absorbed in the population, and proper and honest labour pro cured for them, it was unfortunate that coincident with that period, trade should be in a most depressed condition, that a sudden eclipse of that prosperity which had been blown up to an artificial and premature extent should supervene, and that those classes who were the employers of labour, were in a con dition to do so no longer. Nothing could have happened more unfortunately for the Government than that the new system was introduced at this period, yet he (Lord Stanley) was satis fied of this, that to a great extent notwithstanding all those disadvantageous circumstances, the system adopted with trans ported convicts had acted beneficially in the case of a great proportion of those persons who had been subjected to this punishment. He did not mean for a moment to say, that in the papers before the House, there were not instances of horror (which he was glad to find his Noble Friend had not disgusted their Lordships with)—but those horrors were in the probation gangs, confined to two or three localities. Earl GREY—No, no. Lord STANLEY—It was so, and he affirmed it after a careful examination of the papers. These acts of horror were occasioned by the absence of proper superintendence and watchfulness, and they might by proper superintendence have been in every instance checked. All precautions having been inconceivably neglected, it could net be deemed matter of astonishment, or even of wonder, that such consequences should have ensued. But let them look to the - especial docu ments which treated of the character and conduct and disposi tion of the convict population of Van Dieman's Land. He asked them not to take the authority of the Governor nor of the comptroller, nor to take the authority of those official reports which one and all announced a great improvement in the character and conduct of the convict population. But he would ask their Lordships to look at a letter which would be found in those very papers, and which gave the impressions of the writer with regard to the general conduct of the convicts in the year 1845, and again, in 1846, and Mr. Fry, their Lordships would re member, was no advocate for the continuance of transporta tion, especially for minor offences. His letter would be found in pages 190 and 191 of the book before their Lordships, and the statements contained in it were such as ought not to be overlooked. The Noble Lord then proceeded to read an ex tract from the Rev. Mr. Fry's letter, which had appeared in a colonial paper, to show the great improvement which had taken place in the moral character of the convict population. The writer said that the sea-ports of England presented more im moral aspects than the towns of the colonies--that the ministers of religion who had been provided by the Government in 1842, laboured in extensive congregations, every Protestant family having their Bibles, and both Protestants and Roman Catholics delighting in their rzligious elbservances. The tendency of the whole article was to prove that society in the penal colonies had greatly improved, and were in course of even greater improve ment. Now, this was the article which appeared in one of the colonial papers, and the same facts were confirmed by another article, dated in August, 1846, exactly a twelvemonth after the publication of his first letter. He went on, at a later period, to state that ho had married upwards of a hundred discharged convicts in the last year, who were living as happy as any la bourers in England. The writer also referred to the working of c( nditional pardons under the old system. With reference to the intentions of her Majesty's Government as regarded conditional pardons, the Government desired to give the go vernor power to grant conditional pardons which should extend over the whole of the penal colonies, so that an emancipated convict might have the option of a widely evtended country to settle in. With regard to the punishment, his Noble Friend and himself appeared to agree on the principle; in fact, he thought there was no difference in this respect betwean them. His Noble Friend admitted, in his place, that the same prin ciple of punishment should be carried out as that which at present prevailed in the colonies, namely, the inflicting a severer degree of punishment in the advanced stages, and in every successive stage giving greater or less restraint, until by perseverance and good conduct the convict should emerge among the free and uncontaminated population ; therefore, as far as the principle was concerned, there was no difs ference between them, and he believed that there would be none with any other of their Lordships. The question, then, the great question for them was, what kind or degree of punish ment would be the best calculated to prevent crime in the first instance, and restore in the second place the convict to a useful position in society ? He was afraid that in the vast scale of offences which were ,now punishable with transportation, the distinction would be neglected which existed between the highest and lowest grades of punishment. The offender in the first instance, would think it a matter of no great importance whether the minimum sentence of six months, or the maxi mum sentence of eighteen months were passed. That differ ence would not strike the mind so forcibly as the difference not between six mo n th s imprisonment and transportation for life. The fear of t rans p or tation was now very strong , even with the most hardened culprit, and he doubted that i f the y su bs t ituted impriso nmen t f ur so me months to be followed by emigration, yi countryn g out wpal s 8 , u i r f e i t would were al e ni consti tute something to look for ward to, and ho p e for. calculated] He admitted without hesitation , tha t the q uestion o f expense onlywith ceaset their r wives to be anda matterchildren, of dread,th e punishment bnt actually would was in this case a minor and sub ordinate matter ; and what evcarrying not object to a slight additi onal ex p enditure of one , two, or three hundred thousand poun ds. Hut Gov ernment would be subjected to great difficulty in the first appli ca ti on o f t h e i r g e t be o d the i i mn e i expense e crime, m o e f , s plan. That would neces saril y be the effect of abandoning the of transportation. He believ ed the male portion of he population now sentenced to transportation amounted an. ninny to 4,000 ; so that Government would have to provide ) 1 accommodation in prisons of the character of Pentonville and Parkhurst, (or an additional 4,000 prisoners in each successive year. Four thousand would be the average number of persons to be provided for at one time, and of course the expense of the system would be very considerable. But that was not all. At the expiration of the preliminary im prisonment, the prisoner was to pass to employment upon the public works. It would be remembered that he had asked the question what was to be the period of that employment, and the Noble Lord opposite answered, about half the period of transportation. Now, assuming that the term of ten years was the average transportation, that. would give five years employ ment upon the public works, and he calculated that under this system there would be 20,000 convicts permanently employed upon the public works. He ventured therefore to say, that it was impossible to carry the system into effect. It would seri ously interfere with the demand for ordinary labour, and lead to great difficulties and dissenting. At the expiration of the sen tence, the convict was to be sent as a free emigrant, and free labourer to some foreign port, and if this part of the plan were to be carried out, it woul I inflict the ' erossest injustice upon the good portion of the population. Why how could such a plan be tolerated? Government were preparing to give to the convicted criminal, what hundreds and thou-ands of the honest portion of the population were begging for, but which could not, from motives of economy, be possibly granted. But let them look a little further into this question of emigra tion, as it was proposed to be carried out by the Government. They already had some experience of the fselings, with which the different colonies of this empire regarded the presence of convicts. He would not assume, as was assumed by his Noble and Learned Friend, that it was the intention of Government to send these convicts to France, or any other foreign country, but of this there could be no doubt that they would be furnished with the means to enable themselves and their f to emigrate. New. where were they to go to ? Was it to be left to the convict himself, or were they to be sent to some one of the British colonies, under the control, and at the expense of the State? When they arrived in the colonies, were they always to be free, and subject to no control? His Noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Department, must not deceive him.elf with the idea that the character and con ' dition of these convicts would be greatly improved under such an emigration system. They could not be sent out by driblets of three's and four's at the time ; and if every emigrant ship were allowed to carry a considerable portion of convicts without previous notice, a fraud would be• committed upon the good and honest emigrant. Under such a system, there would be a separation between the convict and the emigrant in the very emigrant ship, while upon their arrival in the colonies, there would he a marked dis tinction apparent to every man between the treatment of the convict sent out at the public expense and the emigrant, whose name and character had been untainted by crime. During the time he hail the honour of being at the head of the Colonial office he was most anxious to promote the success of an experi ment upon a small scale for sending out to some colony a limited number of the most reformed convicts. With the greatest difficulty, the colony or district of Port Philip was got to con sent to receive them, amounting in the whole to fifty ; but this experiment was made the subject of the greatest possible complaint, and petitions poured in from every British colony, praying that they might not be subjected to the contamination of these convicts. Government had already pledged itself that New South Wales should sin longer be a convict colony, and he wanted to ask the Noble Lord if they would be keeping faith with New South Wales if they allowed convicts to emigrate to that colony strider this new plan? Cer tainly they would be keeping promise to the ear but not to the sense, because the convicts were not to be transported in the first instance. But he wanted to know where these convicts were to be sent? Ne doubt they would he glad to go to Canada or New York ; but did Government suppose that Canada would consent to be a receptacle of their convicts. By their prelimi nary system, Government would involve themselves in consider able expense, while, with some trifling additional expense, and a little better management, they might greatly improve the existing system in the colonies. The system of employing convicts. upon public works must break down, as it ought, the plan of emigration would operate unjustly, and be was therefore, strongly disposed to improve the existing system, by enabling the more reformed of the convicts in the penal settle ments to emigrate to neighbouring colonies in bodies of three and four at a time. He had taken the liberty of saying thus much, although he was quite aware that there were many of their Lordships more competent than he was to speak upon this subject, because they had had more experience than him self, but, considering the hasty and ex'ensive change that was now proposed to be made in the criminal code of this country —a change too summary to admit of its being carried into beneficial operation —entertaining great doubts whether the system was not, in point of fact impracticable—whether it would lead to great advantage, or whether it would not be at tended with similar abuses to those of the present system—he had taken the liberty to submit to their Lordships the doubts he entertained upon the subject, to express his earnest hope, that Government would take no immediate step in the matter without Parliament and the people had had the fullest oppor tunity of considering the question, and expressing their opinion upon it.—(Hear, hear.) Lord DENMAN was rejoiced to hear the question so sin• cerely and ably discussed by both sides of their Lordships' House, while he was extremely gratified t, learn that Norfolk I-land, as a penal settlement, was to be entirely broken up. The terror, however, of transportation ought not to be wiih drawn from the minds of the people, and he must, therefore, own that he viewed with dismay the proposal for altogether abandoning that mode of punishing offenders. It would have a dangerous effect upon a vast portion of the criminal popula tion of the country, who were constantly being ins•ructed in the arts of crime, who were leagued together, were connected with large capitalists and well-constructed associations, to tell them that, however great the crime they might commit, they should not be transported. He did believe that the fear of the punishment of transportation had a great effect in deterring some people from committing crime, and, from ex perience, he could state that he had seen instances where the terror of transportation was quite over. what-fling. But there was one fact which Noble Lords seemed to have lost sight of, namely the importance of remov ing criminals of wealth and ability from all communication with those whom they had been employing day after day for pur poses of crime. The receiver of stolen goods was perfectly respectable in general appearances, in his conduct he seemed exemplary—paid his tradesman's bills regularly every week— was considered a great benefactor in the neighbourhood in which he lived, and hence he could always secure a retinue of witnesses to speak to his character. Now, if they did away with transportation, there was no punishment which could be effectually inflicted upon such a man, and the crime of receiv ing stolen goods would be greatly increased.—( Hear, hear.) Criminals could not always be imprisoned in this country, because they would always find some means of communication with their friends and relations, and the result would be. that some false public sympathy would be continually excited on their behalf. Criminals could not be employed in this country on public works, as they were at Marseilles. The people would not consent to have such a spectacle continuously before their eyes. Besides, it was ex ceedingly dangerous to say to the criminal, that, in the event of his behaving himself well, his term of imprisonment would be confined to eighteen months' confinement, and then he would be sent abroad at the public expense. It was well known that the worst criminals were generally the best-behaved in prison, and the reason was obvious. They were cunning designing fellows, and they knew that it served their turn to behave well. There was one point to which he wished to call the attention of their Lordships. If a man was condemned to death under the present law, and if, in consequence of some doubt enter , twined on the case, a compromise was made with him, and he was told that if he submitted to be transported for life, the sentence would not be executed—if he chose after that to return to this country the sentence of death might be executed on him. But in the change proposed by the Noble Earl if the criminal returned after his banishment, they would be then obliged to transport him again, so that the whole difficulty re turned, and he believed that the power of transportation must be to some extent still retained. There was another point, also, the consideration of which filled him with some degree of pain. If this country found that transportation was done away with, he was apprehensive that a greater desire would be excited to recur to capital punishment than at pre sent existed in this country. If this should result from the contemplated change, he was bound to say that, in his opinion, it would be regarded with great aversion ; but if people found that the punishment proposed to be, substituted for the former system of transportation failed in repressing crime to the same extent as it did, it was to be feared that the effect which he anticipated would result. lie then held in his hand a petition against capital punishment; and it was well known that the public mind was running strongly in that direction ; but if anything occurred from the proposed change to increase the amount of crime, the consequences to which he referred would be likely to follow. He did not think it right as the subject had been brought before the House, to be quite silent on it, but he was of opinion that it would be much better to proceed by Act of Parliament, in making any changes on the system at present adopted. He had no objection to the Government endeavouring to diminish the number of trans ports, and improving the discipline pursued in the place to which they were transported ; but such large changes as those ; contemplated should, in his opinion, be made with the greatest caution and deliberation. _ The Duke of RICHMOND considered that the greatest danger would arise to the peace and to the security of life and property in this country, if it once went abroad that transpor tation was to cease to be a punishment of crime. If three or four thousand people were to be confined in future in the gaols of this country, he hoped they would not attempt to introduce such a system till they had the gaols ready for their reception. Besides, he did think, with regard to the change, that the term of 18 months of solitary confinement was by far too long, and he thought they should have an opportunity of being taught trades, and of taking exercise in the open air during the period of their confinement. With regard to em ploying the prisoners am public works, as proposed by the Noble Earl, he could not approve of that, as he considered transport ing them beyond the seas was one of the strongest restraints in crime. Banishment from their own country operated, he be lieved, as a most powerful preventive, and the most abandoned criminal was not unfrequently most strongly attached to his wife and children, and native land. He hoped, therefore, the Noble Earl would take the advice of his Noble Friend the Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench, and instead of proceeding on so large a scale as he proposed, to endeavour to try what could be done, first by diminishing the number of transports, and in any case, by proceeding by Act of Parlia ment. He thought, however, that the system of Pentonville prison had not been sufficiently tried. With regard to the hulk system, he did not think that it was possible to maintain good prison discipline there. They put too many p r i soners together. He was glad tha t the prison inspectors of Millbank were to be removed. They should have been employed in visiting the various prisons throughout the different cr unties, with a view to get a more uniform system adopted throughout the country---the business for which they were originally ap pointed. Earl GREY said that after the observations of the three Noble Lords who had just addressed the House, he wished to make a few remarks, which he would do as briefly as possible. It had been observed, and an opinion was strongly expressed by the Noble Lord opposite ( Stanley) and also, he believed, by his Noble Friend behind him (Lord Denman) that the change proposed by Her Alajestv's Government ought not to be carried into effect without an Act of Parliament. He agreed that an Act of Parliament would be ultimately necessary if these changes were considered be ne fi c i a l , an d h e intended to state that in the course of his speech, but the magnitude of the subject prevented him. N ow, b y t h e ex i st i ng law, the punish. ment of transportation could be commuted, and as they consi• dered that the present law was sufficient to enable them to carry out the proposed plan, they did not consider it necessary to require, at present, a special Act of Parliament, the more especially as the system to be introduced was merely experimental. Until the change was fully tried and sanctioned by experience, they did not propose to apply for an Act of Parliament. They at present commuted the sentence in regard to criminals, from transportation to Van Dieman's Land, to sending them to work on the public works in Gibraltar, at Bermuda, the hulks, Pentonville, and Millbank, and the system now proposed was the same there, but on a larger scale. The meaning of seven years' transportation was understood and acted upon, as four years' imprisonment in these places now mentioned, till the Noble Lord (Stanley), in 1843, sent the criminals abroad on a large scale. Until the advantage of the experiment, therefore. was confirmed by the experience they hed of it, operation, it was Dui intended 10 zppiy to 13:Ai:anent on the subject. Besides, according to the 01,itlion of Mr. Denison, ' who had just gone out there as governor, and, indeed, of every one who knew anything about the colonies , i t was impossible to send convicts out there at present. His /Noble Friend also spoke of the great accumulation of criminals in this country which the plan proposed would cause; but with reference to that he would ask, was not the facility of controlling them greater at home aan abroad, where they wou:d be under the immediate eye of the Government? He also expressed a fear se to the propriety of interfering with the system of assignment, but it was well known that that vras a most horrid system, and in the great majority of cases the parties stood in the same relation to each other as in a state of sltvery. In the evidence taken before the Committee on this subject, over which Sir William Molesworth presided, it was shown that the condition of the convicts was most degrading and demoralizing: They were told besides that if the system proposed were carried change would be extremely injurious, and there would be no longer_ any safety for society. His Noble and Lea rned Friend ( Lord Denman) also adduced the case of a wealthy receiver of stol en property, whose punishment in case of conviction wou wever ld be evaded. Did the Noble Lord know, ho, what had happened under the late s y stem of trans portation? If not he (Earl Grey) w ould tell hits. A receiver of *Wen goods of enormous wealth had been co n' victed some time since, and sentenced to be transported. 11, managed to evade the law as to forfeiture of the pr o Peril of felons, and brought it with him to New South Wt__: l ' When he arrived there he got himself assigned, and in a ' 11 " time was as well off under this system of assignment as ores he was in the city of London.—(Laughter.) Lord STANLEY—That could net be done now. Earl GREY only adduced the case to show tha t the late system was one which was very susceptible of improvement; Under the existing system of transportation, a man sentenced to fourteen years was sent to Van Dieman's Land, and put into a penal gang. and if he exhibited good conduct, after a perm* of eight years he got a conditional pardon, which made bit free, except that he must not return to England, although he might go to India, China, or other countries. Under the system proposed, instead of being sent to Van Dieman's La HQ nd' the offender was immediately to be put into Pentonville. was not sent into a penal gang, where little or no discipline was maintained, but he was placed in separate confinemen t ', • with discipline so severe, that the Noble Duke (th e Duke et Richmond) said eighteen, months' continuance of it was a lmost too much for human nature ; and at the end of that period be was removed into penal labour on the public works. Ther e wee, therefore, penal labour under both systems, but the difference consisted in this, that under the propose& system the offender would be put under an inirnediat s and effective system of discipline. But then, after a certain time, the criminal should be sent out to Van Dieman's Land, where he would find himself in the same condition as though he had begun to bear his punishment in Australia, for he wou ld receive a conditional pardon, and at the end of the time would be discharged free in that country, as under the system at pre" sent existing. He had always admitted that transportation , se. far as it provided a refuge for the offender after his penal period was at an end, was of the greatest possible use, for a new colon,' offered an opportunity which could not be found in the mother country. But his Noble Friend opposite had said that the evils resulting to the colonies from the old system of trenspnr• tation might have been prevented if the most common precav tions had been taken. But he ( Earl Grey) asked how it eagle to pass that the evil results of that neglect had grown and co' tinued for a term of six years? Why, mach a state of things would not have existed for six months in this country, where public opinion would not have permitted it to continue; and that, no doubt was an advantage to be derived from the system pro posed to be adopted, that their officers were under immediate and strict surveillance, that evils could be instantly checked and results modified. For it was not the rules which they might have upon paper which affected the system as it existed, which would always be guided by the rules that were actually in force. His Noble Friend had very good rules drawn oat for the regulation of the penal colony, but where was the gree t which they produced ? But it was urged by the Noble Duke that a system of penal laboue would not be tolerated by a fre ° people. He (Earl Grey) asked whether that could be all argument in favour of transportation ? For if England would not bear that which was for their own advantage, could the' expect that a small community in Van Dieman's Land would bear it ? Were they now to treat the colonies thus, vrhe ° Englishmen more and more felt the necessity of having these institutions under which they had been trained. The rim had come when these institutions must be introduced into el l their colonies, and he trusted in the present session to bring in a measure to that effect. The time was come when the advantage of representative Government must be granted to Australia. The Noble Duke hail said that exile from their as' tive land and their families was felt by cffenders as a serer! punishment and a great trial. He (Earl Grey) ur ns ne' of opinion that these sacred ties of human nature ought to be made a means of punishment. It was certain that the hal+ tuated criminal possessed few of these finer feelings of het"' nity. It was also certain that the professional o ffender had but few family ties to attach him any where and it was only the man who had been betrayed i OlO the first beginnings of crime that would feel a , the Noble Duke had described. If, however, it appeared proper, t° them ever to use this as a means of punishment, they had power of doing so while the prisoner was at Pentonville le Portland, by excluding for a longer or shorter period all cow munication with their friends or families. In the d old days of tr nsportation, he said they used to ee, e , out the wife of the family with the offender, bet te...1" custom was discontinued, with the most perni elei r effects. The Government intended, therefore , .c a send out the wife and family after a certain period of offender's punishment had been endured, and he anticipa t that these intentions of the Government being carried ,e with proper precaution would be beneficial even to the colon'i e- eg: i'' In fact, there was a demand in some of the colonies for ex but for those who were not hardened, and corrupted, an d 1 1, less, such as were sent before. It had been objected t this new system would necessitate a large expenditure wt those persons. Now, the fact was, if they sen them to the colonies, provision must be made for them there` whether, therefore, at home or abroad, provision must be S c :,, ready; and, indeed, Portland would be in a state of readine l very soon, for the reception of prisoners. The Noble E't concluded by expressing his hope that the proposed systera would tend to diminish crime, and reform the offenders. e Lord DENMAN rose to explain. He said he did not wish to be misunderstood by their Lordships, and especial:l the Noble Earl who had just sat down. When it was said UPI when a man was sentenced to seven years' transportation sn " was sent to the hulks for four years, he did not hesitate to ell that in the hulks the man, for anything any one knew, we' L s ' his way to the colonies, and it appertained to the agent' of 1 '" Crown to pardon him at the end of four years. But to chang e the nature of the punishment pronounced upon him was 0 °: legal, and it was not competent for them to do so except by A`" of Parliament passed for the purpose. He would not be 00 ' derstood as defending the system of transportation in existences In his opinion it was an abominable practice. After a few words from the Marquis of S ALISBURT across the table, the Bills were then read a second time. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 5. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. Papers from the Poor-law Commissioners were pre sented. gals The second reading of the Leominster Canal '- Navigation Bill was postponed for a week. SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read ts second time, so ordered to be committed:— Belfast Port and Harbour. Cambridge, St., Neot'e, and Bedford Junction RailwaY% East Lancashire Railway (Clitheroe, Mitton, and Pa f il ' ham, Branches). Edinburgh and Northern Railway (St. Andrew's a d Newburgh Harbour, Branches, and Road Crosing'' Newport Railws.y Extension). at Great Northern Railway (Branch to Horncastle and Bray ford Mere, Lincoln). London and North-Western Railway (Lime-stre et Liverpool, Station Extension, &c.) London and North-Western Railway (Portobello 10 - - Wolverhampton Branch, &c.) - - Newcastle and Berwick Railway (Cramlington and per Main, and Killingworth and other Branches). Taw Vale RAway and Dock. York and Newcastle Railway (Hartlepool Dock and gt„ii. way, and Great North of England, Clarence, and 11'. tlepool Junction Railway, Lease and Purchase). Ups THE LONDON SEW H AGE Ch MAO' ) COAIPANY. la b Sir DE LACY EVANS brought in this Bill, wb was read a first time. lie of THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY _EVENING, MARCH 6, 1847. very difficult to replace him. Moreover, when they came to look at Norfolk Island, they found that they had a very serious difficulty to encounter, for few men, such as they would wish to employ, would like to live there. Excluded from civilised society, without any one with whom to associate but those who were employed in the same capacity as them selves or the criminals they were to guard,—he believed that it was quite impossible for men so situated, not to be deteriorated in character. It was impossible that their moral qualities should not suffer from the atmosphere in which they were placed. He believed that the reason of government, in this particular, being mere easy at home was, that they could em ploy men as overseers, who were not excluded from all social intercourse, or compelled to associate only with those who were employed in a similar capacity, or those over whom they were placed. This was the reason of the inefficiency in the government of convicts at home. It was this consideration that led her Majesty's Government to the conclusion that punishment at home could be effected more safely at a cheaper cost, and more efficiently, at home than in a distant colony. From a system of punishment properlywconducted at home they would derive this advantage, that they would have the power of immediately checking abuse, the power of instantly ejecting officers that proved inefficient, the power of correcting any errors that might be made in the general regulations—all those advantages which were altogether wanting to the colonies would be enjoyed to the fullest extent, by carrying out a sys tem of punishment at home. Such then, was the determina tion of the Government. It was proposed still to look to penal labour and imprisonment as the elements of punishment. It was proposed to consider whatever would tend to the reforma tion of the offender; and therefore it was determined that every criminal sentenced to transportation should undergo a period longer or shorter, as the crime might be, of what had been called separate imprisonment—that no criminal sentenced to transportation should escape what was called se parate confinement. Their experience for the last three or four years had satisfied them of the good effect likely to be produced by this system. It was most efficient in those who seemed least capable of impression, and beneficial on those most capable of reformation—( Hear)—but he thought that that was a mode of punishment which ought to be carried oat with great caution.—(Hear. hear.) It could not be carried out to a very great extent, and he thought the Noble Duke, from his observation, as a Commissioner of Pentonville, would concur with him that it could not be car ried beyond a very short period. It had been proposed, there fore, that every offender should undergo a period of seprate confinement, not longer than eighteen months. That was the MALT. Mr. BROTHERTON presented two petitions, o — tho which was from u place in Devonshire, praying that for House would pass a law to prevent the use of mait the purpose of distillation (ltiring the present calao3ll. ROMAN CATIIOLIC . .i.ZELI . EF BILL. th is Sir 11. IL INGLIS presented petitions against Bill. NAVIGATION LAWS. erg Mr. MITCALFE presented a petition from ship olll- in North Shields against the repeal of these laws. LIGHT DUES. Mr. HUNIE presented a petition from the shipowneol• of the port of Arbroath complaining of the burden the ligfit dues. Mr. FORSTER presented a petition to the same e- ffeet' PUNISHMENT OF DEATH. Mr. HUNIE presented a petition from a society 0 London calling themselves " Free-thinking Christiso' praying for the abolition of the punishment of death' RAJA OF SATTARA. • hv Mr. B. ESCOTT presented a petition from the 3° 4 bitauts of Westminster, agreed to at a public 1 061 i l l over which General Sir De Lacy Evans presided, support of the claims of the sp ed Of Sattara. - rgl ers6 Sir B. HALL presented apetition from St. to the same effect. HIGHWAY ACTS. la Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition frowl.ll 3 110 § c 0 in the Isle of Wight, praying foi an amendment 1 11 Acts. UNIVERSAL PEACE. Mr. HINDLEY presented a petition from th ° cleettl mittee of the Society for Promoting Universal Poe- j (Laughter)—stating that they considered the Soup 9 adopted a very erroneous course in increasing the giT to and navy estimates, and stating that the onli. Wil i t be promote the safety of the nation was, by i nc ulcating • principles of universal love and justice, and not Ile blind reliance upon brute force.—(R ene wed laughte' fie entirely concurred in the prayer of the (Cries of "Order, order." and laughter.) Mr. TOLLE',INATIONAL FAST. our ACEIE presented a pet i t i o n in of a day being set apart for fast and humil iation. ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BI LL. The Earl of SURREY presented a petition , ro place in Warwickshire in favour of this Bill. LAWS OF QUARANTINE. petition. Dr. BOWRING desired to know whether any chi if le:, had taken place in the laws of quarantine? and , de :Atelier the Vice-President of the Board a Trabie would have any objection to place them upon the to of the House? don, „tor Mr. MILNER GIBSON , in an swer to the quel had to say, that the only new regulation which he I ‘,'_^ ' o f of was, that ships from Turkey, having clean bill' of health, and in which there was no suspicion a ness, were free fr.en quarantine. POOR. LAW FOR IRELAND. from Mr. POULETT SCROPE presented a petition fror a pariah in the county of Cork, which stated that th s e,f . were many thousand persons there suffering from de e 7 tution, and that such aid not arise from anY wan ef b property in the neighbourhood, but from the suppo rtae many proprietors, and the refusal of others to ppor the poor ; the petitioners prayed for a com p lete law, similer to the Enclish. M. LABOUCIIERE preseetcd petition from the loinraission;:rs of Castel, prayin g t f o r union ratites ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOU SE. hat On the motion of Mr. PARKER, it was ag reed the House at its rising should adjourn till Iliondsp Sat RAII.W./ th Ilir a ainghara, "Y (lompanv agaii Sir THE I 17. 1 _ IJE Ley ~Itrainger, pray tqtees attendant '"ttara. cuotitsrfri.en g-r iti_Fdiltil i q next, be ous iv b, t ki , r e rn t!ri and .del tc, o b t :. A s'o e l red fess ti a ebt, hie), ti t 4 erei 11313VEhe,R he had se for BrentPart4 of tote fi ) PaSged i t t ),ish bed t he Publi c ter Q Intended s e tnerefol.e tb "furth FoSe of C sor• is tio 4 the ose aib ,coutte; trains :13 4:ll'l'tbuiYloht'ithuitefder:ttl2"lerPlT `such r e dil Ptlr j":toPuthite'irttlbr e „ - Fus e d —• ew ea at milted w i. r . 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GRID, ad the papers Stentiun he . h positton e xert expens e It n Would thewolild also al th Lord.lA eut to g of work] cit t i: l equence. for th t ° fayoux tr et‘ ,' Lord.-L be r *ith re - Tereised fIUME liph i r,'? . itiOn on t 14,...7 4 fi1l to the ' 4 l - aced for t Ytise collectio l ili T t r G. might re t h. i sanct mod., tame on 1/4141 natural]; C/ ItSe. STu tr th • AI e Noble I 'but had b eer t"tlecieourentiou th e t :L l ,etlier hu 1 a :‘ r ule * J. RI ou Thu