The Sun. — London, England, 1847-03-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 13, 1847. the :light Hon. Baronet would be laid on the tA Monday. Lbli.t on POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. GREGORY wished to put a question to , the Noble Lord with respect to a clause which he (Mr. Gregory) had placed upon the paper with the in tention of moving its insertion in the Biil when the House should go into Committee upon it. The No,i e Lard had stated that it was his intention to propose that no holder of land above half an acre should be entitled to come under - the definition of destitute persons. Now, he wished to know whether he intended to introduce such a provision. If he replied in the affirmative, ut if is t (Mr. Gregory's) motion would fall to the grot . sndh in the negative, it would be his duty to propose also wished to know when her Majesty's Government esuld state their intentions with respect to vagrants in Ireland? Lord JOHN RUSSELL (who spoke in an unusually low tone) was understood to say that he had already stated that he approved of the clause a hich the Hon. Gentleman intended to propose, but he should prefer him to make what amendments he might think proper, and afterwards to bring it under the consideration of the House at the proper time. He could not state the exect time when the Government would bring in the Bill with sespect to vagrants, but he might state that he certainly should not bring such a measure forward until the measures so urgently requiry in Ireland had re ceived the sanction of the House. MINT PROSECUTIONS. Mr. HUME said, seeing the Hon. Gentleman the Master of the Mint in his place (Mr. Sheil), he wished to know whether the statement that had gone abroad was correct, that policemen employed in Mint cases were paid double the usual pay during the time they were engaged? Such a statement was made at a trill which recently took place at the Old Bailey, and it seemed most extraordinary conduct. He thought the public should have authentic information on the subject. He therefore wished to know whether such a practice existed, and if it did, whether the Hon. Gentle man had taken any steps to put a stop to it ? Mr. SHEIL said, on Friday last he inquired at the Mint whether such a practice prevailed, and was informed that the practice had existed for a considerable time, and had been carried to a much greater extent than at present. He thought it was a practice likely to lead to great abuses, and he could assure the Hon. Gentleman that he should do his best to put a stop to it.—(Hear.) The subject then dropped. POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. On the order of the day for going into(;ormnittee upon the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill being read, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that before the Speaker left the chair he wished to state generally what had been the latest proceeding of the Government with respect to the calamitous state of affairs now existing in Ireland, and at the same time to call the attention of the House to one or two of the principal provisions of the Bill before the House. In the midst of the present afflie:ions of Ireland he thoueht it was due to the House—;p ith darkness surrounding them and peril before them—to acquaint it with the steps which they were taking from time to time, and those measures which might have at a future period a serious influence on the destinies both of this country and of Ireland. The House was acquainted both with the wept; which had been taken before the commencement of the session, and the conti nued refusal which the Government had given to enter tain some other measures of large import to which their attention had been repeatedly called. Thus, the Govern ment agreed, with respect to the supply of provisions, that there should be the amount of 10,000 tons always in store in various depots in those parts f Ireland where there were no regular markets established, but it declined to undertake the P..eding of the people of Ireland by the importati , )n of provisions. They likewise consented that a sum of not more than 50,0001. should be lei I out for seed, thinking that seed might be more re_idily purchased hy the Government than by individuals. But they had stead iy refused to undertake the cultivation—the ploughing and sowing of the land in Irclan !.—(lfeer.) Thus, also, they had augmented to a very email di gcee the sum es hick was applica for the removal of emigrsiap in a destitute condition, from Quebec _to Montreal and other places, where their labour vii: ht be more in demand. But they had refused to he come responsible fur the conduct and promotion of emigration in general from this country.—(Uttar,) The reasons why the (du'iernnrent had thus acted as laws s : —ln the first place, they thought the quantity of corn and provirions of all kinds would be greater if the trade was not interfered with, than if they by any act of theirs interfErA with the purchase of supplies, and, in the second place day by day, they had been confirmed that in so doing they had acted right. They w ere a l so of opinion that the cultivation of the land would have been impeded instead of forwarded had they undertaken, as they had been desired to do, the eraplopnent of the pople upon th e l an d . They were likewise of opi n i on that the number of emigrants to the United Stares and the colonies would not have been considerably increased if the Govern. ment had pr: ,posed any large grant of money for that purpose, instead of leaving emigrants to depend on their own resources, or on what was furnished them by their friends or their landlords. On these topics he would do tie more than state what the epiniuns of the Government had been. With regard to another question, it has been thought that the Go vernment had unduly interfered with the employment of the people, devoting large sums of money fur the em ployment of the destitute people of Ireland. This was undoubtedly true. For this purpose the a'lvsnces had been very great ; and he would now state what the amount had been, up to the end of February, expended on relief September (1846) November Decemer January (1847) .. February This expenditure was entirsly independent of that which had been expended by the commissariat and other public departments. lie would DON give the numbers employed during the last month, iu which the increase had been very great : Men. The week ending Feb. 6 615,051 91 7, 13 605,715 // 79 ‘ , O 663,749 27 703,228 On looking back at the proceedings he was firmly per suaded that unless a very large outlay money had been made from the national treasury, many of those who were now employed would have died from the want of the means of subsistence.— (Hear.) lle thoeght this very large outlay was justified,' and was to be justified by the great emergency of the case. It was undertak, n to prevent an increase in the number of persons who had died in Ireland from want of food. But while during the months of November, December, January, February, end, indeed, part of March, they had continued these works on that great scale, they had. never been insensible to the evils which were tan ndant upon these works, and it was to be expected the evils would increase as the works were en!srged. In the first place, the immense increase in the number and crowds of workuirn, an increase which ranged from 30,000 to 40,000 at the commencement to 708,228, had made it al most impassible for the Board of Works, however it had exerted itself, or did exert itself, to keep that due order and regularity which ought to be observed on the public works. Let him say, lresever, at the sense time, that the degree to ..shich order and regularity had b,-en ob served, was not only a matter of praise, but of great as - tonishment. It had been done, in the first place, by the exertions of the officers -of the Board of Works themselves, and in the next place by the exertions of the military and officers who were placed under the con stabulary of the Board of Werks, and lastly by the exertions of the Executive Government, and the mili tary are] constabulary at their disposal. The conse quence had been that, although it would have been impossible to see a bother a due quan tity of work was performed by each individual, there had not been any general confusion in the work', or the regularity of the payments. Still there had been, and it was' to be expected there would be, something dishonest and speculative on the part of those clerks who were engaged in superintending and paying the men engaged on the works. But part of the irregularity arising in the performance of the works was to be attributed to tha inability of some of the persons employed to perform the work assigned to them, its consequence of the want of that sustenance vt hich was requisite to enable them to perform that amount of work which was necessary to enable them to procure a sufficient sum of money for the purchase of food; and thus their overseers and the other persons over them naturally felt unwilling to oblige them to perform tasks to which they ware unequ - al, or to give them a sum issufli eient to meet those dismands for food. They had, therefore, reduced the amount of the task•work, and consequently the amount of work performed was not to be considered an equivalent for the wages given, but rather an amount equivalent to that which they were enabled to perform. This had led to irregularity, be cause while some were altogether unable to perform the task assigned, and it was impossible to make them do so, others, who were able and strong, and capable of per forming those tacks, had taken advantage of this state of things, to come at late hours of the morning, at ten and eleven, and as late as twelve o'clock, and said that as they were performing task-work they were nut obliged to attend at regular periods. But a further evil was the consequence of these irregularities, at this par ticular season, as [they would learn from the report of the Board of Works for last month. (The Noble Lord then read a quotation from the report, to show that as this system of task-work had been introduced on the pubic c works, th e l a b ourers earn i ng is. 6d. a day were • to attend to the cultivation of the soil, and the q rate of waeesconsee - slice had been that a higher s, sad been induced ) In consequence of this report, ,ratedcorrob as it had . been by a great num her of representations from individual officers employed in various parts of th s e n „. tits o f t h e „ nami , s au t utry, and in different depart ra the Board of Works ; nti in consequence e s (i o vet-nine:A determined r i epresentations, th e that to reduN_,, as far as. possible, t, was neeessa and oawinit,hAtioutl!Petakoef Ow year—when plcus,lnn g lace to menace for the Coming esup . 1" ) •s— they were deter- Whit d, its far as pos,ihle, to reduce the ratulher cm threw W0E .1, 4, sie l en these grounl s his JA,1i7197 T public h s een . Friend the S- cretary of State t'oy the Ilowe Departtnent hail eo l f re those l virttten a letter to the Lorit-L t i i ,; (i itt; i r u sa m n br t of advising than as far as pessl6lo, I , beurr‘rs should b.s diminished, and thet no fertfivr pmsontuierif.s should be made unless upon special grounds gr)unds upon which he should be required to make a rc-pert to rho Secretary of State for Ireland. The Treasury had, likewise directed that notice should be givers that from Saturday, the 20th March, the number of persons employed on the public works should be reduced in the proportion of 20 per coat. The last Treasury minute gave instructions to the of er seers to take off from the public works those persons who 'might receive any rations of soup or other food. It v,as hoped, therefore, that when all those arrangements we re complete that the number of men employed en the relief works would be considerably reduced. He did not then intend to take notice of the other measures then before the House with respect to Ireland, because, although they were great in their extent, they were not to be compen d with that measure to which he had alluded, so totally unexampled in its nature, and so appalling in its magnitude.—([fear.) To the other measures he would feel it his duty to call the attention of the House at a future period. He proposed now to call the attention of the House to the proper business of that evening, and before he did so, Le thought it right to say something with respect to a representation which had been made to him a few days since. A memorial had been presented to him, signed by 64 Peers and 40 Members of that House, upon the subject of the Government measures. He thought it would be respectful to the parties whose signatures were attached to that memorial, that he should notice the representations before he proceeded to the measure itself.—(Hear, hear.) The sixty-four Peers and the forty Members of that House formed a list of persons well acquainted with Irelam' ; many of them had been long residents in that country, and they all had considerable know ledge both of this country and of Ireland ; but he confessed he could not agree to the resolutions which they had adopt :d—resolutions which would pre clude that House from entertaining -at all the question of out-door relief.—(Loud cheers.) Their third resolution was in the following words: r° Resolved, that the principle of giving out-doer relief to the able bodied labourers of Ireland, has be en condemned by Parliamentary Committees and Government Commissions, as well as by public officers appointed to consider the subject—that the experience of the last twelve months, during which time several have received out-door relief, although accompanied by the relief ordinarily afforded to agricultural labourers, demonstrates conclusively that the system of out-deor relief will produce the most fatal and lamentable conse quences." Now, with regard to the first portion of that statement, he had nothing to say, as he did nest wish to go into any examination of the report of the Committees and of Commissioners, but with regard to the other he had two observations to make. He did not think that the relief given during the last twelve months, accompanied with labour, at till conclusively proved that, out door relief had proved injurious, however serious the expense might have been.—(Hear, hear.) He thought, however, that the system which they had been compelled to carry out, could not fail to be attended with abuse ; but that observation could not with any truth apply to the plan of the poor-law for rating the land in Ireland. The House could not have failed to have seen the great readiness with which advances had been made from the Treasury for the purpose of carrying on public works, and the great readiness which hid been shown in recommending the employment of per sons upon these works—(Hear)—but the advances thus made for the relief of the distress were not considered to be made on the understanding that they were to he immediately repaid by the rate payers of Ireland ; they were to be ha ked upon as sums advanced from the public treasury. Amongst the reports which he had read there were several which stated that the relief committees put upon the relief works many of those who were best able to sustain themselves. That overseers were appointed who were themselves farmers, and possessed of land to a considerable extent. But it was obvious tient if they imposed a poor-rate, and that the desti tute were to be supported out of it, that thew, it would be the 1 interest of every ra t e p a y er an d every guar di an to see t h at none but the de-titute were supported out of that fund. For that reason he thought that the experience of last session was any ! thing but coneusive. In the next place, there was nothing in the plan proposed which made it probable that gratuitous re ! lief would be afforded. He should hold it, that the boards of guardians and the poor-law commissioners would have the same ! power as they possessed in England of making regulations for the employment of those who received se lief. , When an able-bodied labourer in England ap , plied for relief, he bad some work given to him, i to perform as a test of his destitution, and that work enabled the guardians to limit the demand of relief giien very much. They did not intend to introduce any other system into Ire land. But there was another question to which he should refer back. He had the honour of conversing with the depu tation of peers and gentlemen, when they presented these reso lutions, and he stated to them that it was quite true that very great abuses did exist in the English poor-law system, and that even at the present moment the system was not without its abuses. But his answer was, that they had seen a aa.t number of people in a deep state of destitution, and they had been told by men most conversant with the state of Ireland, that although the destituti on h a d b een grea tly aggrava t e d by the failure of the potato crop, yet famine was not a circum stance of rare occurrence, nay, that it was an annual visitant. i What was then to become of the destitute poor, if they were not to be provided for by out-door relief, when the workhouse was full ? When they objected to his plan in the House of Commons, what other plan did they propose instead of it ? - ( Hear, hear.) And to the question, which seemed really not to be expected—(Laughter)—he got an answer from one member of the deputation, tr.at private charity in Ireland was such, and so extensive, that it was not likely that any person would be allowed to starve. And another member of that de ' putation immediately observed, that he did not think that, with regard to any change which bad taken place, with regard to the cultivation of the potatoe, that the same extension of private charity would be hereafter required. He fully agreed with the lest member of the deputation. He fully admitted that there had been immense extent of private charity in Ire land, but it had been frr.m the poor to the very poor.—( Hear, hear.) It had been charity from the small farmer to the de,titute labourer—of the faimer and resident gentry generally to the mendicant, and those who asked their alms until the passing of the Poor-law Act for Ireland—which he had the I honour to introduce, and which he now proposed to extend. 1 He did not believe that there was any burden whatever on the large proprietor who did not choose to contribute to private cha rity— there was no demand whatever on the great absentee pro ! prietor who did not see those miserable objects about him. There • was no demand or burden whatever on him if he did not choose, and he might avoid altogether—he would not say ob ligation, but any payment of the kind. Well, then, if this were the case, he asked that question again. Seeing that hi therto the destitute in Ireland who had not been supported in the workhouse had been supported by the voluntary charity of the classes resident in Ireland, and chiefly by the poorer classes, the farmers had contributed a portion of their po -1 t tatoes or meal, whatever it might be, to the support of the mendicant who called at his house, he asked, when the cul tivatien of the potato would be greatly diminished, 5..) as to alter the social state of the country altogether—he asked, to whom were the destitute poor of Ireland to look for support?— ( Hear, hear.) He must say, that this deputation at once rejected the notion that they could come on another occasion to the Imperial Exchequer, and ask for further leans, advances, or grants. lee must do them 1 the justice to say, that not one of them expected that such would be the case, but he must say that the economical question still remained. What were they to expect, or how were they to expect, these persons to be provided for ? He really knew no way in which that could be done unless they had resort to the measure which was then before the House. Guarded with all the force and seconded by all the fences the House might think requisite. He still said, that if a person was starving, and had no resources, " let him be relieved in the workhouse, if their is room in the workhouse, and let him be relieved out of the workhouse if that workhouse is so full as to be unable to relieve him inside."—(Cheers.) In making that proposition to the House, he thought he could place it on very fair grounds. He would state in the first place, that no one i could accuse Parliament with having acted niggardly in Ire land's extremity. I\o one, whether he looked at the contribu tions made from the collected taxes of the country compulsorily raised from the people of Great Britain, or the collection of voluntary gifts, whether they considered the millions pro posed to be voted, or the hundreds of thousands of pounds col lected from private sources—whether they viewed the one or the ether, no one could accuse the people of Great Britain with want of generosity or liberality. He was justified in saying this, hot he would hardly have stated it, hal there not been re• peated charges made—not against the Government, for they were a fair target to attack—but against Parliament and the people of Great Britain, who, he must say, deserved no such treatment.—( Loud cheers.) He thought that in the next place he should state, that what the Government proposed to do as a permanent law for Ireland, was a course which they in England thought to be consistent with their wealth, consistent with their sense of security, and consistent with the regard due to the rights of property.—( Hear, hear.) They in England had for a long time had a poor-law not only for the sick and the infirm, but also provided that the able-bodied should be set to work, and so doing, should receive relief; and lest it might be said that the abuses of the poor-law were continually com plained of, he might state that a reform had been made, and though many thought that this reform had been severe and stern, yet during the ten years the poor-law bad been in opera tion, the people of England and Wales hail contributed no less than 49,000,000/. for the relief of the poor. —( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") True, he believed, that not only in a reli gious or moral view, but on purely economical principles, and to ensure the safety and security of the country, it was good economy to lay out this amount of 50,000,000/. on tae poor of England and Wales.—( Hear, hear.) He had here various extracts from different reports, showing the number of persons who had received relief at various times under the poor-law of England. He found that, in the year 1840, the total number of poor relieved was 1,199,000 • in 1841, the total slumber reli eve d was 1,299,000, being an increase of 100,000 ; in 1842 the number relieved was 1,429,000, and some odd hundreds, making some nine per cent. of the population of the country. And the mode in which this number was increased, and the reason why they were increased, was this—that during these years they were visited by a defi cient harvest, and there were numbers in want of food and of employment. Immediately that took place the rates were enormously increased. He had a statement there which was taken from a speech of the Hon. Member for Bolton, made, he believed, in the year 1842. The Hon. Member stated with regard to the mortality, that in the year 1839 the number of persons who died in Leicestershire was I in 48, and in the year 1840, 1 in 39 ; in Nottingham, in the year 1839, the mortality was 1 in 47, and in 1840, 1 in 35 ; in Lancashire, the deaths in 1839 were lin 35, and in 1840, 1 in 31. But the poor rates which, in 1835, 1836, and 1831, had been 11,9001., had risen in 18-12 to 16,7451. Now that was the mode in which the English law provided for the destitute in this country in years of distress, similar to what had taken place in Ireland, with this diffe rence, that now, there was more than ordinary distress felt over their empire, with a corresponding want of food and em ployment. What he, therefore, proposed to the House was, that with regard to Ireland, with regard to her future and per manent condition, to take advantage of the seasons in which they had good harvests, and tolerable employment, with the view of meeting their distress and destitution arising from de ficient harvests ; he proposed that the same mode of relief, and the same nature of relief which was given in England, should be given to Ireland, under similar circumstances. He did not ........... mean to propose that the Irish should be a measure identical in every way with the English law ; he did not mean that those provisions which were connected with the abuses of the old law, should be introduced into Ireland. Ile thought that in introducing this law into Ireland, they had a great advantage secured in the workhouses already established in that country. But they took care when they first introduced the poor-law into Ireland, to establish workhouses in the first instance, and therefore, the proprietors, and guardians of the unions of Ire land, would always have that tcst ; they would be enabled to apply a that test, and to say to the poor, " if you are des' itute v ti e(iinf want, come into the workhouse, and you shall be pro the wzi.th:lfxseth .14 or there." He could not th nk himself, that when the infirm and aged were' removed from the workhouse, would riot be fully sufficient to relieve distress, and he tlopuo,olr, the w. except in times of extraordinary power rgwita likewise. that if in times of extraor dinary distress g m tv o en t to increase the workhouse ac commodation it would - 1:. test against imposture and the qu e e m sti a o nd s for idleness. But useful d in obtaining a further he meant which he did not briefly there was another part of this wish to touch upon in detail, and to which to refer, but which formed with him, he musimsaeyanAt e voeni! yy ui c t o egt reason for pressing this Bill upon the House. - ' ad mitted that the present calamity had been so great l that no attempt under the poor-law with the population which existed in Ireland at the commencement of the year 1846 would have been fully equal to meet the emergency. He did believe, most unfortunately for Ireland, that there had, under the connivance of landlords, of tenants and labourers grown up a miserable destitute population, ass immense array of person=, whose numbers, and whose dreadful condition, formed the sub ject of reports of Commissions to whirls he had referred upon other occasions. He did think that, with this state of the po pulation existing in parts of Ireland, it would have been im possible for the proprietors and landlcrds of the country to have provided any direct measure of relief during the pre sent year; but he must add to this, that although great nurn hers of the resident gentry had done their utmost—although they had exerted their utmost energies —although they had been content to forego their usual mode of living, and many of the expenses which were necessarily given for the education of their familis s—he did not think that, taken on the whole, taking residents and absentees, every person who participated in the thirteen millions rental of Ireland, had exerted himself as he should have done under the circumstances. He collected this from the frequent statements which were made, that while the resident gentry had munificently contri buted, and were giving their one, two, or three hundred pounds, as they could afford, that too many of those proprietors to whom letters had been sent had not contributed anything towards the relief of the distress. Upon that ground he said in the first place that pi operty had not done all that it should have done, and he must say that there were many among the resident proprietors who should go further in the way of contributing to those expenses, further in the way of abstinence from those things which might be called the luxuries of life—( Hear, hear)—than they bad hitherto done. He would not go fur ther into this subject at present. He found himself bound to state thus much ; he felt it as an evil pres s ing upo n hi s m i n d, and he thought hat those were reasons, if such were the im pressions of others ' why they should rot leave the destitute poor of Ireland, in future years, to hazard and to dangers such as they had been exposed to in the present year.—(Cheers.) He was told, indeed, that with respect to some parts of Ireland. the population was so greet, and the rental so inade quate for the subsistence of the destitute poor, that proprietors must altogether b oak down under the obligation which this law would impose upon them. He did not believe that such would be the case. He believed in the capacity of the soil of Ireland, he believed in the willingness to labour of the people in Ireland—(Loud cheers)—he believed that the soil of Ireland might be made far more productive than it was, and that the general produce of Ireland might be made ranch greater.— ( Hear, hear.) He confessed that, as the matter now stood, the payments to the destitute poor might take a larger propor tion of the rentals than was obtained. He did not think, how ever, that those payments amounted to a fair proportion of the rental obtained, and he thought that they might at least attempt to give some further proportion than had been given of late years to the support of her destitute poor.—( Hear, hear.) He found that in the year 1841 the expenditure for the relief and maintenance of the poor of England was 5,039,733!., being at the rate of ls. 7id. in the pound on the rental of the property; and that in Ireland the annual value of property amounted to 13,204,2341., bat the expenditure for the support of the poor was only 298,813/., being at the rate of 5,4 d. in the pound on the annual value of Irish property. But let not any one suppose for a moment that he quoted these facts for the pure pose of reproaching the owners of property in Ireland, who, it was right to state, paid something under 6d. in the pound. If they were not, however, required by the law to pay more, and if higher rates had been imposed, the Poor-law Commissioners would have decided that it was an illegal act ; he quoted them simply to show, that there remained property in Ireland which might be further assessed for the re lief of the destitute poor, and on the owners of which they had a perfect right to call for further assistance, more especially during the prevalence of the awful calamity which had devastated that unhappy country. When the im position of this additional tax has become much greater than at present, and was found to be a burden, it would then be time for them to come forward and complain ; but the present was not the moment for them to come forward to urge that on behalf of its reduction.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to a subject to which much public attention had been directed—the union of Skibbereen—he wished to say a few words. Every one had been shocked by the accounts which had been received of the deaths which had occurred in that town, ant of the number of persons who were in the nu - It miserable cen dit ion, but little removed from death. A gentleman who called upon him (Lord J. Russell) and who was well worthy of helief, handed him a letter from a person residing in that Fart of Ire land, which stated that the pr. perty there was rated at 98,000!., but that the actual value of the property was 130,0001. t year. That until last September, no rate above sixpence in the pound had been levied ; that it was increased to ninepence in the i +mond in the course of th a t morels, but that that ra t e had never been levied.---( Hear.) Now there, he thought, was an instance, and the correspondence furnished many others, that even under the present law there had not been that due assessment for the relief of the poor which ought to have been made on those possessed of property in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He said, therefore, that these were the reasons for the enactment of the Bill which he had proposed. —( Hear. ) He was aware, that in passing such a Bill he was asking them to frame a law different, in fact, in many important respects from that law which was now considered to be the law of Scotland. The law of Scotland, as enacted at the time of the revolution of 1688, made a provision which would have been applicable to able-bodied poor—( Hear, hear)—if a different interpretation had not been put upon it by the courts of Justice, who derided that it should be confined to the infirm and the sick, and it had been so confined; but there had not been in Scotland of past years, or even during the present year, any c a s e whi c h s h ou ld induce him to wsh to alter or to amend that Act whirls was introduced by the Right Honourable Gentleman the Member for Dorchester (Sir J. Graham) two years ago. He believed that that Act was conformable to the feelings of the Scotch people, he believed that the good feeling of all classes in Scotland would induce them at any period of distress to give immediate assistance to each other. He knew that at the present moment many proprietors in Scotland had very nearly ruined themselves by their benevolent effo, is to save their people from starving. He believed that they considered that as an obligation on them, if not legally, yet morally, and every exertion was made in Scotland to save the people from destitution. He thought that in Ireland the law ought to be more conformable to that of England. He did not think that the people of England would be safe if there were not a law in this country which entitled the able-bodied to relief. He was much concerr.ed on the reformation of the poor-law—in the passing of the Poor-law Amendment Act of the year 1834 —but he did not remember that at any time when they were reforming that law of the present clay, they ever contem plated depriving the starving able-bodied poor of their chance of obtaining relief in any part of the country. He believed himself that that arrangement was necessary to the peace and security of this country, and lie believed that it would be found necessary to the peace and security of Ireland. They must expect a great change as soon as other cultivation should have taken the place of the potato, and many of those who had holdings to which they were attached solely fur the crop of potatoes they afforded, would take the place of able-bodied labourers, and from time to time be thrown into a state of destitution. He believed that such a law as he then proposed would induce the pro prietors and farmers to give a greater quantity of employment than they could otherwise do. He believed that when they saw that those men must be maintained, they would say they are able-bodied men, they must be maintained, and they had better do good work in producin g food for the future harvest than do usele ss wor k an d b e paid fur it out of our rates. This much, therefore, the farmer and the landlord would increase the employment given to the able-bodied population of this country. There were some other alterations, to which he needed scarcely to allude, which he proposed to introduce into the Bill before the House. There was one which had pro duced in Ireland, as it had produced when he had stated it in that House, considerable dissatisfaction. It was the proposal that one half of all the boards of guardians should be formed of magistrates, being ex-officio guardians. He believed that this objection was founded on an old belief, te which he saw one of the Bishops of the Roman Catholic church still clung. It was the supposition that the magistrates were hos o tile f t e o o h o e i o r t r r v. el i g iiof he u s rites, thoo agnheltthathostileh t tois bad feeling the po] i f e r x e l e s t: e o and that the body of the magistrates of the country were con sidered by the farmers and labourers as their enemies, he should doubt the propriety of placing the same body equal in number on the boards of guardians. But he believed they were on the eve of a great change in Ireland, and he thought the resolutions he had referred to earlier in his address proved this. These resolutions of public meetings held in Ireland, with other accounts which from time to time he had received were symptoms of a great change. He thought that the Protestant classes both in England and Ire land had for a long time suspended their claims to superior consideration. The Protestants of England had had no adversary to deal with, but with regard to Ireland they were in immediate collision with the mast numerous class of their fellow citizens. Between these classes had grown up; the one endeavouring to maintain due attention and con sideration to their claims for pre-eminence, and at the same time securing the constitution cf the country, and the other class, thinking that they were justly entitled to equal pri vileges with the former in the land of their birth.--(Hear, hear.) But he trusted that this question, or, at least, the most of it, was already solved, and that the whoF of it was in the fair way of resolution, not only by Legislative enact ments, but by the progress of national feeling and disposition. —( Hear, hear.) If he thought that this or any other Bill which he proposed would set class against class, or clergy against clergy, he would pause ere he proposed them, but he did hope they were in the transition state, and that though their might be some reaction, the time would soon come when all would act together for the benefit of Ireland.—( Cheers, ) And seeing these symptoms, he hoped that with respect to the boards of guardians, and with respect to the other relations of society in Ireland, that they should see, Tory and Whig, Radical and Repealer, differing, as no doubt they would do, on political questions, yet blended together in social compact, prepared to act for the common weal, and above all to distri bute justice, without any bias from political feeling.—(Hear, hear.) It was w i t h th i s hope, and not with any view to give any supremacy to the ex-rfficio guardians, that he had introduced the last clause into this Bill. It was stated that there were in the Cabinet two, or three, or four Irish proprietors, who were supposed to influence its deli berations favourably towards property. Such was not the fact. Those very members of the Cabinet were parties with him in pro posing the Bill.—(Cheers.) They were prepared tobearthe bur den which might be imposed upon them, and it was with their sanction and high authority that he asked the House to go into Committee upon the Bill. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said that the statement made by the First Minister of the Crown was one which called for their most serious consideration. The Noble Lord had stated that the expenditure on the destitute for this year would be twelve millions of money, and that the rental of the country only exceeded that expenditure by one million. Money had been spent, not upon fertilising the land, but upon useless works, and for that he blamed the Government. Colonel Jones had asked who were the labouring poor ?—there was no answer to that question until the 26th of October, and then came out the circular respecting the 61. rating. That was a point which should have been earlier ascertained, how ever those were the two points for which he blamed the Go vernment, although he was willing to make great allowances for the difficulty of the Noble Lord's position. Ile considered that the experiment of a poor-law should be tried in Ireland, and he was therefore willing to lend him his support. He could freely say that the warmest feeling, and sympathy. and charity of this country was extended to Ireland, and he hoped that these feelings would unite the two countries more and more, and remove any bitterness of feeling or animosity which might have existed. The Nob'e Lord had referred to the English law as a standard for the Irish law. He (Mr. S. O'Brien) had before stated, and, as he thought, wisely, that he had rather take the English poor-law, clause by clause, and letter by letter for Ireland, than any other law. The electoral divisions were even now, practically, parishes. There was, then, a Bill before the House with reference to the relief of the smaller tenants of England from rates, and lie would be quite satisfied if the Noble Lord would take the poor law and apply it equally to both countries. Let them have one system of settlement and one system of exemption—one regulating power for the law in both countries, and they would have the best secur.ty for its management, and the best remedy for its errors.—( Hear, hear.) As an English Mem ber, he could mot say more ; he had alreakiy stated the fact to the Irish Members, and he believed that if the pro position had been earlier adopted, Ireland would have been in a better position. If it was the wish of the House, as he sup posed it was, he should apply himself to the consideration of the principles of the measure, and their immediate effect. He fully agreed with the Noble Lord that the principle of out-door relief was required in Ireland, and also that one-half of the board of guardians should be ereqPicio, but he was ',of opinion that the class from which these ex-ollicio guardians were to be chosen, did not equal the class from which they were ehe en :n England, and they might therefore exercise a strong influence over the landlord by the terror of the starving multitude. Ile believed that the area of taxation under the present Bill was too large, and he knew that many Irish gentlemen would have come forward before to improve their lands, if the areahad been smaller. He begged the t ;oeernment not to increase that area. The change which was to be introduced was by altering the territorial divisions from what they were. He would propose that they should strike out the 10th cluuse altogether, and leave those divisions as they then stood. In order to show the Noble Lord how necessary it would be to reconsider this act with reference to the electoral divisions, he would refer to the present state of territorial division. There were unions, con taining 507,154 acres, and varying down to 38,000 acres. There were electoral divisions from 570,154 acres, to 38,000 acres, and there were townlands from 145,598 acres, down to 532. These varied from 131,000 in population to 300 ; that amount the Boards of Guardians had the power of uniting into one district, and only one Board in all Ireland had availed themselves of that power. If the Noble Lord was willing to leave these evils to the decision of the Poor Law Commission ers, to the decision of the Board of Guardians, or even to the judgement of those who had property in Ireland, he would be satisfied, but if he persisted in going against the Poor-law Commissioner, the responsibility would be upon his own head. In the parishes of England, generally, a considerable quantity of the money which was used for the poor was used for the Irish, and yet no complaints were made; for all that was asked was, that each landowner should bear his share in the expenses. That was the principle of the English poor-law, and it was one which could not fail to excite considerable satis faction in Ireland. Let them take, if they chose, a national rate; but between that and such a plan as he proposed there was no medium. There were 236,000 acres in the union of Skibereen, and there the system of union rating had been tried and failed. But they talked of the union-at-large system : on this there was a case which was decisive on the point. In the union of Skerrat, in the county of Clare this system had been tried, and it had been found that while the union rate was 174,0001., the electoral division rate was but 114,0304 This was the only instance in which the principle - proposed now to be extended to all Ireland had been tried, and it had proved a failure. This being the case, he wished the Government joy of the course they proposed to take. If they abandoned the electoral division rate system, let them extend the system, pay the expense of the workhouses out of the consolidated fund, and take all the rates themselves, raised by a national impost. This would be a better course than the one now proposed. They were about extending a poor-law to Ireland in a season of great distress, and they should be aware lest they not only injured the poor, but ruined the gentry of Ireland by the course proposed. At present, therefore, all he asked was for the Government to strike out the tenth clause of the Bill, and leave the principles contained in it to be treated as a whole. If the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, did not attend to these sugges tions, he (Mr. Stafford O'Brien) thought he would disappoint many of those on whom he mainly relied for support. Mr. P. SCROPE wished to occupy the House but a short time on one or two points, especially that relating to out-door relief. With respect to rating, he admitted that it was a diffi cult question at present. Perhaps, under the circumstances, a system of estate rating would be the best, as it would stimu late the proprietors to do everything in their power to employ the labourers under them. With reference to the great question of out-door relief, he must express his deep and heart felt thanls to the Noble Lord, for the great and noble senti ments which he had expressed that night: a speech that would find an echo in the breast of the people of England generally. —( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. ticrope) was firmly convinced that out-door relief could not fora day, with safety, be suspended in England; and further, he did not think this country would have ever reached its present state of prosperity, unless by such a poor-law as had been in operation. England, before the en actrnent of this law, was a kind of Tipperary; person and property were not secure; but the wise and good men of the time of Elizabeth provided an efficient remedy in the law for the relief of the able-bodied poor which they enacted. Let the same kind of law be extended to Ireland, and he felt sure that agrarian outrage and its attendant evils would soon cea-e. With regard to the Bill before the House, he must say that its provisions did not come up to the principle stated in the address of the Noble Lord, lie had always considered that the ques tion was as much an English as an Irish question. It was in dispensably necessary, even to the welfare of the English people, that the condition of the people of Ire sand should be raised from its present degrading level. she present mode of relief in Ireland tended to crowd the labour market of this country, to contaminate, by their misery and squalid wretchedness, the condition of the English poor, compete with them for employment, and finally to raise the amount of the poors' rates of this country. It might be sail that so long as the union existed between the two countries, this influx of Irish paupers could not be prevented. L was, then, so much the more necessary that the law should be al tered so as to afford to the Irish people the means of support in their own c o unt r y, an d th us prevent t h em b ecom i n g cha r g ea bl e to this country. If th e l aws o f t h e two coun t r i es were equal ized the people of thin country could trot complain of the mi gration and permanent settlement of the Irish paupers. He mentioned the other night some facts tending to show that an immense system of depopulation was going on in Ireland, and that the landlords of that country were making all possible use of the process of ejectment to clear their es tates, arid thereby rid themselves of the burden of supporting them. The authorities of Liverpool had sent over some persons to inquire into the real cause of the immense emigration which was continually going on. Those persons formed immense crowds, travellavg in the direction of England, and from them those persons learned that the reason the par ties were coming over to England was, that they believed that it was the law in England that no person should starve. To such an extent was this emigration going on, that he had no doubt in a short time upwards of one million of those Irish j augers would be able to obtain a permanent settlement in this country under the provisions of the Poor-law Settlement Act, passed in the last session of Parliament. He hoped, therefore, that, in the proposed measure for Ireland, the same provisions should be made that existed in this country, and that, in this respect atleast, the two countries should be placed upon an equal footing. He believed that such a measure, so far from proving an injury to Ireland, would be the cause of raising that country from its present degraded and miserable condition. He hoped that the Noble Lord would reconsider his proposition, not to afford any out-door relief until such times as the workhouses were full. He was supported in his view that it was necessary to afford out-door relief by several Irish landlords and Members on both sides of the House. And a work published by Mr. Shafto Adair, most strongly recommended a system of out door relief. And he (Mr. P. Scrope) believed that any poor law would be perfectly nugatory which did not provide a system of relief equally to the able-bodied and infirm destitute. Mr. GREGORY said that the Hon. Member for Stroud had hitherto had great vantage ground to go upon, for, both by his voice and pen, he had tried to distinguish himself as a friend to suffering humanity. But they, on that side of the House, who held that the amelioration of the condition of the Irish people was a work of time, and was not to to be accomplished by a hastily considered measure—they who looked beneath the surface for the cause of the evils which afflicted Ireland, they were stigmatised as hard-hearted land lords, or flinty political economists. He w as no a d m i rer of the measure which was intended to be intro !steed by h er Ma jesty's 'sGovernment, for, in his opinion, its effect wou ld b e to swallow u7sl m r n i•h e p n r t o ' perty ; and, howev er much some Gentle men that House might desire to see such a co nsummat i on, est in he (Mr. Gregory) considered that it would be found that the result would add only a darker shade to misery, which was but too sombre already. Let him ask lion. Gentlemen opposite, what was the relief which had been extended to many dis tricts—what had the setting the labouring population to work done in mitigation of the evil—almost nothing. And now they had another of the Noble Lord's measures—a measure which would be found even more ineffectual than those that had gone —a willing degrad a ti on—a degradation so before. --( Hear, h ear.) If the passed it they would entail upon themselves all y the evils of the old poor - law. They would degrad e th e pea santld learn to scorn hi s i n d ustrious anti more honest neighbour. When the poor - law was imp ose d upon abjec t t o , th p a a t u England it was guarded b y the strictest provision s . U n d er these restrictions the pe o p le we re protected from inj ury . B ut p h e e ris w m ou under the resolutions proposed by the Noble Lord it was pro posed to give a poor-law to Ireland without those protections. When this poor-law was proposed the population of a square mile in Ireland was 300, while that of England was only 250, while that of Wales was 210, and that of Scotland was 200. Did the Noble Lord remember that Ireland had 2,500,000 of paupers, to whom this assistance was to be rendered, and the whole rental of the island was only 11 , 0 00,000 a, and the sum to be deducted for the relief of the paupers was 2,375,0001.? There were three causes which would render this motion ino perative, for the whole of the resources would not suffice for that relief. These three causes were, in the first place, the want of the means; the sec ond was the want of floating capital ; an d the third was the want of the means of demand for the em ployment of this capital, even if it were in active employment. He then would argue that there were no means of bringing these appliances into play. Mr. DILLON BRO WNE said the Hon. Member who had jest sat down had asserted that the measures proposed by the Government were not sufficient for the purpose for which they had been introduced. To a certain degree he agreed with him, for these measures were not calculated to meet the whole of the exigency,ani he thought that when their was absolute destitution there was an absolute claim to relief. The Govern. ment would, in fact, have to come down next year, and ask for further assistance, for they would have to give assistance in proportion to the want of the employment of industry, and the landlords :could say that they had better give a shilling for the support of the poor rather than give it to the casual poor who were dependent for relief. At the present moment there were upwards of 600,000 persons holding more than one acre and less than five. Now, the person holding five acres was much worse off than those holding one acre. There was one acre employed in potatoes and two in oats, but the produce of those acres was all lost in the subsistence of the people. The system pur sued in Ireland was the most injurious, the most grinding, the most distressing of any in Europe, and this was owing to the rack-rent that was drawn from the land. He would take the cave of Mr. Beasy, where the tenants were ejected because they could not pay their rents, and why could they not 2—why, because when those tenants offered to pay their rents they could not pay their rates. Then take the case of Lord Lucan'a estate. - The Noble Earl had - endeavoured to justify himself from the charges which had been brought against him, but it was all in vain. He (Mr. Dillon Browne) knew the county of Mayo well, arid he could say that the Earl of Lucan had not spent one shilling in the improvement of his property. But what was the course pursued? Why, he said, that let the tenants reclaim the waste lands, and then they should have a lease for their holdings. The whole of the evils, in fact, arose from the system of letting lands in Ireland. In the county of Mayo there were 50,000 acres which rendered no return to the poor-rates, and how was that return to be obtained ? Cer tainly not under the present system. He had then another ob jection to the choice of guardians, for, in one place in the county of Mayo they were paying tenpence for the expenses, and twopence only for the support of the poor in the district. He deeply lamented that the Government had taken the electoral division, for he was desirous that they should have taken the territorial divisions proposed by the Hon. Mem ber for Northampton (Mr. S. O'Brien.) He was himself an electoral guardian, and the Nob!e Lord had been the means of preventing his becoming an ex-(Sieio guardian; and from the knowledge which he had gained in that capacity, he deeply regretted that the House had not adopted the system for reclaiming the waste lands of Ireland. He thought that the English Members would have a right to complain if the Irish Members did not their people. , under ordinary circumstances, provide for • Mr. • BA TESON gave the present Government credit for having the best possible intention towards Ireland, and he freely admitted that they had shown every desire to ameliorate the present distressing condition of its people. gtill there ap peared to be some undercurrent at work, which prevented them from carrying their good intentions into effect. He agreed with his Hon. Friend the Member for Dublin, that the proposal for out-door relief was highly objectionable. It would encourage idleness, and reduce Ireland to one large union, with till Prime Minister of England for the head relieving officer. It would have the effect of stopping improvement, and render neutral the beneficial provisions of the Bill. It would feed the idle at the expense of the industrious and confound the good with the bad. He was quite,ready to give his consent to any proposal for increasing the accommodation of the union work houses of Ireland, but he must protest altogether against out door relief. He was an advocate for electoral divisions, making every parish liable for the support of its own poor, and 1 . depend upon it, sooner or later, this principle would have to be adopted. Before he sat down lie must express his regret that Government had propesed no plan of emigration L wo o ! have Lee: te lee! et; the eee ee: of boards of guardians for encouraging emigration, than wast ing the time and money of the public upon plans which had long since been exploded. In the absence of these additientl powers, many small farmers, now anxious to try their fortune abroad, would be thrown upon the preee!te a funds for subsist ence, and he toped the seteji n would not close without Government coming Ktesereri wit Jan extensive emigration scheme for the mi d i Ic ltne people of Ireland, whose present condition as tte. at abject and distressing.—( Cheers.) Unless Government took some step c f that nature, Ireland would ere long become a huge mass of misery and destitut'on.—( Hear. ) Sir W. Al OLES WORTH said the question for the considera tion of the House was one of so much importance not only to Ireland, but also to Great Britain, that he could not content himself with merely saving that he concurred generally in the views of the Noble Lord the Member for the city of London, but must ask permission to state his opinion upon the subject. The question for the consideration of the House wee, whether the present Irish poor-law ought to ba amended, and whether out-door relief should or should not be established, and, if it should be established, to what class of paupers should it be applied? Now, let him ask the House what was the object of the poor-law. According to the report of the Commission ap pointed to inquire into the expediency of improving or extend ing it, the object was to make provision for the poor against starvation, and, in doing so, to attempt to put an end to agrarian outrages in Ireland. It was expected that such a system of Irish Poor-laws would have put an end to vagrancy, and would have prevented most of the idleness and intemperance of the people. Other not less important results were also anticipated; and as to the improve ment of the soil, and the flowing of capital into the country, what had been the result? Had agrarian outrages diminished, or had the people become more industrious or more temperate? No; they had not ; as. the population of Ireland, but for the aid of this country, would be carried off by starvation. It was clear, therefore, that the anticipations which were held out at the passing of the poor law had not been realised, and that new and more stringent measures were absolutely necessary for the improvement of Ireland. From a return made up to Lady-day 1845, it ap peared that there were 113 unions in Ireland, and that the po pulation which it contained was 7,500,000. In the course of the quarter ending Lady-day 1845, 112,000, or 24 in every 1,000, received relief; during the same period there were 585 unions in England and Wales, the population of which was 13,250,000, out of whom 1,250,000 received relief, or 92 is. every 1,000; the expense in Ireland being 94d. a head, and in England 6s. 6d. ; consequently, every man, woman, and child, in England contributed eight times more towards the relief of the poor than in Ireland ; but it appeared by the returns which had been furnished, that at the present moment, independently of the present workhouse accommodation, that 900,000 stand in need of relief out of the poor-rates. There fore, if there was as much real distress in England as in Ire land, it followed, as a matter of course, that the poor-law of Ireland was most defective, and did not afford, from its improper working, the indigent poor the relief which they stood so much in need of. Under the present poor-law, no relief was afforded to those whom the crowds in the workhouses pre vented from obtaining admission, so that those thus situated were left to perish. The Irisleworkhouses would not contain mote than 100,000 at a time, but in the course of the year they might afford accommodation to as many as 200,000; conse quently the workhouse accommudation was most defec tive. and would remain so until they were increased, fourfold. Mr. Nicholls, the Assistant Poor-law Commis sioner, stated that the workhouse accommodation required in was for one per cent. of the population, but in addi tion to the in-door accommodation the Poor-law Commis sioners allowed out-door relief to widows, and wives who hat been deserted by their husbands ; orphans and children under sixteen years of age, and they, even in cases of sickness, ex tended out-door relief to able-bodied persons, and 149,000 had received out-door relief in this way, the total numbet during the quart er o f th e year , w h o h a d b een so re li eved being 710,000. and the whole number for the year being about 1,0.10,000. However, if out-door relief was given in Ire land, the workhouse accommodation would be sufficient. What he wished was, to see the poor-laws of England and Irelane assimilated, or that the persons who received out-door relief i England might also receive it in Ireland. Then he appre hended that vagrancy and indolence, which the promoters of the old Irish poor-law stated that measure would remove. would be greatly diminished, and great benefit, in hi, opinion, would in consequence result to Irelat d Men would not starve as long as they could possibly obtain food. sooner than starve, they would wage war upon society. The English people expected that as English property was bound 14 sustain the poor, so Irish property should be made to support its own poor. For these reasons, he would support an efficien poor-law, without which, distress, mendicancy, and agrarist outrages, would never cease in Ireland. He did not think tha a poor-law would he a sufficient remedy, for subsidiary measure should be adnptsd. He considered that a plan of syternatii emigration should be adopt, d. There a ere two problems t, be solved in Ireland, the one to induce the Irish labourer t( seek steady and continuous employment, and th, other was to afford him employment. A vagrancy law anti a poor law, in his opinion, migh . be able to effect that object ; but it was necessary that the Ii isi proprietors should exert thems Ives. The bankrupt landed pro. prietors were the greatest curse inflicted upon the country— they were nothing else than bankrupts, as they were unable to perform their duties which their property imposed upon then, —thef should be swept away. They should be treated as bankrupt shopmen—their properties should be sold, and then estates should pass into the hands of those who were able an i willing to discharge the duties of a landlord.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. SHAW said he could not help regretting that at a tans when the Noble Lord should have gone into Committee spot, a measure beneficial to Ireland that he should have chosen to open a discussion upon the state of Ireland. He considered such a course peculiarly unfortunate, and he arose because the Noble Lord had made reference to him as one of the deputa tion that had waited upon him, and even had done him the honour to refer to some observations which he had addressed to him, lie would have been ready to have given the Government every assistance, and although he was never one of those who joined in the outcry against the measures adopted for the state of Ireland, he felt bound to say they were open to great objection. in consequence of the abuses which existed. He did not think that the Government would be able to feed a nation, and be consequently, looked kindly at those measures, as they were caught at in a time of necessity. But he did object to this permanent measure as introduced by the Noble Lord, and hi did not think that faith was kept with Ireland in thus attempting to impose the system of out door relief. The Noble Lord now advocated the measure contrary to his own re corded conviction, when a member of Earl Grey's Government. What said one of the temmissioners appointed by the Noble Lord's Government, and upon which the poor-law professed to be founded ?He said that out-door relief in Ireland, wools introduce a principle, which had been felt as an evil in one country, into another. The system of out-door relief was only tolerated for a time as an evil, and a necessary one, in England, and it would be a mischievous precedent to intro duce it into Ireland. It would induce a reliance for support upon the rates, instead of upon individual industry. The first report, which he found upon this subject, after the union of England with Ireland, was in 1834, and it denounced the principle o f out -d oor re l ief as mischievous. ( Hear, hear. ) [The Honourable Member proceeded to read extracts at some length from the report condemning the practice i of out-doo r re li e f.] A f ter the enactment of the I English poor-law in 1838, a Committee sat upon the subject, and they reported that they concurred in former re ports of other Committees, condemning the practice of out door relief, and recommended that it should not be continued in operation. One of the reports of the Commissioners in 1824 asserted that the out-door relief debased the character of the labourer, and rendered the feeling between master and servant one of a most disagreeable character. It secured subsistence to all —equally to tho idle and dissolute as to the distressed but industrious workman. A report of a Committee of the House of Lords also condemned the practice as one in jurious to the country; and from the evidence adduced on that Committee, he saw that it had been asserted that al! the evils produced in England by the poor-law in 300 years, would be produced in Ireland in ten. Such were the opi nions the Noble Lord had challenged him to produce. The next point on which the Noble Lord challenged him was, that during the last twelve months he had interfered with ordinary agricultural labour, and interfered with the produc tion of food. He heard it daily from Ireland, that so demora lised were the people by.the public works, that when the land lords offered them task work, by which they could earn 10s. per week, they preferred working on the public roads, where they could only earn ss. per week. The deputation which had waited upon the Noble Lord, and of which he (Mr. Shaw) was a member, had stated that there was no amount of in-door re lief which they were not prepared to submit to rather than encourage the evils fostered by the system of out-door relief The Noble Lord had said that he did not see the great diffi culty with regard to the proportion of the population to the property. In Mayo the population was 400,000, and the rate able property was 350,000. Was it possible, even supposing that the whole land was given up to the people that it would afford them maintenance. He maintained that in such a district as he had named it would be perfectly impossible to carry such a law as that proposes into effect. The Government had taken advantage of the pre sent time, when Ireland was in great distress, and when great prejudice was excited against the landlords of Ireland, to in troduce the present question. And the difficulty was further increased by the proceedings of the public press, and the dis cussions which had taken place in that House. The public press especially had done every thing in its power to excite and perpetuate this prejudice against the landlords of Ireland. He would not have made reference to the press it he did not think that the feelings expressed by it were not participated in by a considerable portion of the Members of this House. Both from the articles which had recently ap peared in the columns of the leading journals, as well as those in many other newspapers, there was every evidence given that nothing was left to induce them to misrepresent and prejudice the proprietors of Ireland. (The Hon. and Learned Gentle man here read two extracts in illustration of what he had stated.) All these circumstances had no doubt operated on the Government to propose a measure with which, per haps they did not cordially agree; but they might rest assured that if they succeeded in ruining the Irish landlords, they would nevertheless still perpetuate the de gradation and misery of the people of Ireland. It was well known that he had ever been a consistent and honest opponent of the repeal of the union, but if such a system of misrepresen tation and abuse against the landlords and people of Ireland was to be continued, he might see reason to change his views, even upon that questien. He had it from undoubted authority that not less than 200,0001. had been subscribed by Irish land lords since the beginning of this distress. This sum was inde pendent of the amounts expended about their own resi dences. He had hoped that this subject would have been more temperately discussed, and he would not endeavour, by any remarks of his, to add to the bitterness which already existed. He would say in conclusion, however, that he would feel it his duty to divide the House on the sub ject of out-door relief for the labouring poor in Ireland. Mr. ELLICE said that the Honourable Member had entered into a lengthened explanation of the evils under which Irish landlords were labouring, and he quoted extracts from certain public prints, conveying sentiments which he was sure were not coincided in by any Member in that Hou - e, or by any of the better disposed and thinking classes cf this country. The Hon. Gentleman had said, also, that the whole course of Government legislation had been adverse to Ireland. - Surely, tins Hon. Gentleman had for gotten that the proceedings of the House bad been most favourable to the country. Surely, he could not forget that from the period of the Catholic Emancipation Act, down to that time, every measure affecting Ireland that had received the sanction of that House, was for the purpose of remedying some grievance or granting some boon. It was true, that they did l oo k with some degree of expectation, to see that Irish landlords did their duty. They did look to find that some effort would he made by them to prevent the influx of pauperism which burdened Liverpool arid the other parts most contiguous to the sister country. It was not necessary that they should go to Liverpool or the other parts of the country, for they would find, in the districts of the metro polis—in the neighbourhood of Bethnal-green, and simil ar localities, ab un d a nt p r oofs of the social evils which existed in Ireland. The rates of those districts had been greatly raised solely in consequence of the necessity under which they la boured of providing for the necessitous Irish poor. He thanked and he was sure the country would thank, the Noble Lord for the measure which he that evening had promised to bring for ward. From that measure he expected the greatest benefits to accrue to Ireland. The small towns would have to follow the example of the large towns. He would take the county of Cork for instance, where he might be obliged to ruin a small Landlord in order to support t a r e , eeseie ers, aril he he. leeeet ides ewe, was adapted to the general position of the country. He would now allude to the question taken up by his Right lion. Friend with respect to the poor-law as respected Scotland. He quite agreed with his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Dorsetshire, that such a law was necessary for Scotland. The original position was the best possible for the introduction of a poor law for that country. Taking all the circumstances of the case, he could not et , rceive the analogy of the cases. According to the ancient custom of Scotland, the able-bodied labourer was entitled to support, but that support was to be given for the work which he rendered and, therefore, the cases were decidedly different, but he be lieved that the Irish labourer, if he were induced by the offer of sufficient reward, would have been glad to live the requi site exertion for the advantages which he obtained. Sir B. HALL rose amid much confusion, but was under stood to say, that he was quite aware of the effort that was to be made on this question, though he was not prepared for the epposltin that w as to be offered to te motio n of he Noble Lord at o the head of the Gover nmen t. h flair was he at t all aware of the argument that was to be offered to con raciction to the assertion of his Noble Friend, nor con d he altogether assent to the proposi•ion that the Irish landlords were responsible fur all the distress that had occurree in Ireland. To this extent he quite agreed with his Hun. Friend the Member for Co ventry, but he did not agree with the assertion that the time for discussion had now arrived. Hon. Gentlemen opposite had asserted that the-time had now come for this discussion, but to this he could not assent, for when a Bill stood for the second reading he quite believed that it was the season for dis cussion of the principle of the Bill, and that this was not the time. He did not mean to make his observations ebjec tionable to the Irish landlords, but was quite ready to allow that what had occurred might be most distasteful to them at the present moment, but he believed that afterwards they would be most grateful for the assistance which had been ren dered. If he were to presume on the example of the Irish landlords, he might adduce that of the Marquis of Lansdowne, of Lord Portsmouth, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and the Marquis of Donegal. But when he spoke of the landlords of Ireland, he did not mean to say that they had not done their duty. Why then were such statements made, and what were the charges that were made? The Hon. Gentleman had asked for his authorities, and he assured him that before he sat down, he would give hint the authorities on which he made his allegetions. He readily met the challenge which hail been thrown out, and he did not think that he should be doing his duty, unless he did meet that challenge ; and, first of all he desired to meet the allegations which had been made with respect to the conduct of the board of guardians in Ireland. In doing this, he not only desired to meet the case, which duty prescribed ; but he wished also, as it was in truth a matter of importance, to consider the feelings of the landlords of Ireland. He would now show the House the grounds on which he was prepared to prove that the landlords had not done their duty to Ireland. The chief ground of accusation against the landlords was, that they had not backed the levying of the poor rates. II the lion. Gentleman would take the twelfth report of the Poor-law Commissioners, he would find that there was the greatest diffi culty in collecting the rates for the relief of the poor, and es pecially in Queen's county and the county of Roscommon, and more particularly in the parishes of Castlereagh and Westport, and those which were adjoining. In the union of Tuam the, guardians showed cause against a writ of mandamus, and the court gave judgement against them. Notwithstanding this judgment the guardians proceeded to collect a rate due in 1843. Now he wished to show that there was a disinclination on the part of boards of guardians to levy a rate for the poor. He would show that in at veral unions, although they had been established since the 20th of July, 1841, and some of them even as early as 1839, yet up to the sth of Aueust, 1845, only one rate had been levied. The Castlereagh union had levied a rate of 4id. in the pound ; the unions of Carlow and Tuam sd. in the pound. He thought that it would be only justice to compare what had been done in Ireland with what had been done in England. He would select some counties in England, hearing the same proportion as other parts in Ireland. The counties which lie would refer to contained a population of 3,154,485 souls. The annual income assessed to 'he priors'-rates was 1 3,553,836/. ; the sum raised by poor's rates, was 1,169,378'. ; the number of paupers re lieved was 380,490, or about 9 per cent. of the population, and the rates collected amounted to 8 per cent, on the annual value of property. Now, with respect to Ireland, what was the a'ate of things? There were 130 unions in that country, with a population of 8,174,000; the annual income assessed to the penes rate was 13,2d4,2344 ; the amount levied for poor's rates was 298.8131., or abut 2* per cent. on he value of the property ; the number of paupers relieved amounted to 125,724, or about 15 per cent of the p pula tion. Now the result of this was, that the poor's rates in Eng 'and amounted to eight per cent on the value of the propel t,, 'bile in Ireland it was only 2,1 per cent. The paupers relieved in England was 9 per cent., and in Ireland only 11 per cent. The Hon. and Learned Member for Co. k ( Mr. D. O'Connell) had said on a former occasion that the English Government were responsible for the lives of two and half millions of people in Ireland. He ( Sir B. Hall) denied that statement, and took occasion to express his opinion upon 'he conduct of some of the Irish landlords. The Right Hon. Gentleman was fol - owed 11 the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem eer for Mallo w ( Si r D Aorreys) who 'said that it was unfair 'o bring forward statements respecting Castlebar and other` unions anti apply observations made upon these unions to the whole of Ireland. They were exceptions to the general rule as relating to the poor-laws in Ireland, and desired him Sir B. Hall) to look to what was done in the other 126 unions, and that it was only pandering to the vitiated tastes of -the British public to dwell upon the conduct of the guardians of these particular unions. He had done so on the present occasion, and hoped 'hat he had satisfied the House of the difference which existed in respect to the poor-law in the two countries. He held in his hand a report collected from the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the statistics of distress in the neighbourhood of Mallow. He was sorry that the Right Hon. Member for Hallow was not present, He would, however, make the statements in order that they might go forth to the world through the ordinary channels of information. The return was dated the 7th of March, 1846, before the great destitution which took place in the first year. Now, he found in this report that the sheet contained sixty families; and from the inquiries that had been made, it would seem that, with the exception of four, the heads were out of employment; none had clothing at all, and only three had beds ding.—(Bear, hear.) In a neighbouring parish he found that there were 207 families who were precisely in the same condi tion. The statements he had made could be supported with the testimony of several clergymen, who had come over fro m Ireland t o wa it upon t h e Noble Lord at the head of the Go vernment to assure him of the desirability of establishing out door relief. These gentlemen wished him to make some state ment upon the subject, but he stated that he would make no statement to the House in reference to individuals unless he was assured of the authenticity of the information which had been communicated to him on the subject.—( Hear, hear.) He, therefore, proposed now to quote from the report of a com mittee appointed to consider the subject, and he found from that report that one of the witnesses was asked, ' Do the land lords of the district interest themselves in the improvement of farming in your district?" The witness's reply was, " No inte rest whatever, except getting their rent."—( Cheers ) Another witness added, " That landlords seldom or never gave assist ance to the tenants," while the anseer of another landlord was that he " Did not want any tenant who wanted anything from him." Now, let them see what the contributions of the landlords had been towards relieving the prevailing distress in the county of Mallow, deducting the subscriptions that had been received from one liberal landlord, the contributions did not amount to more than 951. ; one laudlord,who was receivin i,OOOl. a year from the county, had only contributed 2/., acidic another, who received 8,0001. a year from the district, had only subscribed s'. The Hon. Gentleman then went on to quote a number of other details and documents,'but the Hon. Member lelivered himself on this, as well as in other parts of his speech, m indistinctly, that it was impossible minuteiy to follow his statements. The Hon. Member added that he was happy to say that he had been furnished with a strong anti pleasing contrast to the instances he had already given. It was the cam of a gentleman who, although he had only a mortgage if 1,0001. in the county, hall subscribed 901. t owar d s alle viating th e di s t ress o f the distriet, while the servant of the gen leman, an officer in the army who distinguished himself in the Peninsular war, with the view of leetting an example to the wealthy inhabitants of the district subscribed, 25/. The Hon. Vember then road several other documents to the same effect. A gentleman with 6,0004 a year gave 154 for the relief of the door in his district. This was not a single case, there were many others, where the possessors of large property were not even equally liberal. The Hon. Member then read several extracts from letters, showing the dreadful destitution which prevailed in the country. He also referr ed to reports aid on former occasions on the table of the House, and con inued thus:—That was the opinion entertained with respect - o the conduct of the Irish landlords in 1723. But what was 'he opinion of the Rev. Dr. Doyle as to the conduct of Irish landlords in 1820-100 years after? The Hon. Gentleman - hen read the opinion to which he referred. It stated that many f the Irish landlords had no means of judging of the -ondition of their country except through their agents, and that many of those who lived in the country were not :n a condition make the sacrifices that were required of them. They were sompelled, in consequence of the poverty of their t; Hants, to edelivide their land, and to reap, in consequence, but meagre ',rats from it. But what said Dr. Doyle with respect to the squireens ?" He salt , " They seldom possessed much property, - tut nevertheless they managed to obtain an income of a few hundreds a year."—( Hear, hear.) He characterised them in 4eneral terms "as the scourge of Ireland, as igno• rant, bigoted, extremely dishonest, and in the habit of telling all manner of falsehoods, but in such 'a Nay as to carry with them the resemblance of truth."— ( Hear," and laughter.) Of course he (Sir B, Hall) could not be considered answerable for these statements. He went on to state " that they could not be trusted with one's purse, and that few of them valued the sanctity of an oath." He further added, that they were in the habit of" fomenting re ligious animosities, ready to impose taxes, and to share in them;" and then he summed up the conduct of these persons by say ing, " without exaggeration they were the slave-drivers of Ireland, and much resembled those of the same class in Ber muda."—(" Hear,hear," and " Oh, oh.") Well, all he could say was, that that was the opinion entertained by one of their own countrymen of themselves. Mr. D. CALLAGHAN—Yes; but those are "squireens." Sir B. HALL said unfortunately the squireens were a very large class, but from information he bad received he was not inclined to believe that they were the worst landlords. The Hen. and Learned Gentleman the Recorder of Dublin ( Mr. Shaw) stated that that was not the proper time to bring forward this question ; but what response had he made to the challenge of the Noble Lord at the head of the Go vernment, when he stated, " If you do not approve of my pro position, why don't you devise a better remedy 1"—( Hear, hear.) It appeared that various parties had lately met for the purpose of discussing who was to maintain the poor, and out of what funds.—(Hear, hear.) The Repeal Association and the " Irish party," which seemed to have very much dissolved of late, landlords at Fermoy, and the Roman Catholic minister of two dioceses, had met and as also had th e grand jury of the county o d f ise w us e s s e t d me th a e th7 hjcte, who passed various resolu'ions, one of which lie would bring before the House. But great differences of opinion prevailed on the subject amongst the members of the Repeal Association.— ( Hear, hear.) For instance, the Honourable Member for Mayo said, the only fault he found with it was that it did not go far enough. He always understood that that association consi de, ed the repeal of the union to be the only panacea for the Hs of Ireland ; but he remembered perfectly well that the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cork (Mr. O'Connell) on the motion for going into Committee on the existing Irish poor law, moved that they should not go into Committee until that day three months; then again the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Kilkenny (Mr. J. O'Connell) said he should support the Bill, but in writing to "My dear Ray," he said "he objected to it exceedingly ; but if he entertained this opinion, would it not be more manly, more straightforward, to come forward and so express hitnself ?—( Hear.) They said , the measure was pressed upon them by the British Govern nent, and that they must accept it. But he (Sir B. Hall) e.holly differed with them—it was not pressed upon them as a burden which they ought not to bear, and which would press hea.vil7 upon them, as they were s i mp l y ca ll e d u p o n t o do what Englishmen had done for years, namely, to sup port th e i r own countrymen when reduced to poverty. But he would t e ll t h e H on . G ent l eman t h at if h e did give his support, and if he did vote for the measure, he ought to exert all the influence which he possessed in Ireland to make the law v.ork as efficiently as its warmest supporters would desire. He DRAINAGE OF LAND The report of this Bill was brought up. d h e° Sir GEORGE GREY state d, t h at after w h a t ll c t oor e. said, whe n th e su bj ec t was l ast b e f ore t h e H ouse, the '; 01 ment had agr ee d t o re d uce t h e maximum sum granted to o ne landed proprietor from 15,000/. to 10,00 W. g ee' Captain GORDON regrette d t h e d ec i sion the u° . meat had come to on the matter. et i °r Sir JAM:. S GRAHAM compli men t e d th e Goverealediee• the ready manner in which th e y h a d agree d to hi s segMe-thae The Bill was intended more for the benefit of the yemee j e ct i o e the large prop r i e t ors , an d h ence he had proposed the reag of the price to 10,000/. he B ill The report w ith th e amen d ments was agreed to, a the or o to be read a third time on Alonday. ih ° Theother orders of the day were th en disposed off - House adjourned at a Quarter after One o'clock. RAILWAY SHARE NARKS LEEDS, MAticti 12. , Ai n, an j STOCK EXCIIANCE.--lhe sales arc A t Nott.n.--81 I ) niberga c, - (scr P ' Boston, ss. dis.—East Lancashire, New, 15( p.—Ditto , 215. Gil. p. East and West Yorkshire, 14s. 6d. ,''', FActen" (late London and York), 2s. 6d. dis.—Leeds and Dews/AID, , ink). awns, Scrip (green), hs. p.—Ditto, New Extensions, Sc ri P ‘l 3 )ittor 10s. p. —Leeds and Thirsk, 2 dis.—Ditto, New 12s. 6tl. di'' ...voll, Preference, 28s. p.—Liverpool, Manchester, and Newcastle Ju n ' al. 15s. dis.—London and Brighton and South p.—Manchester and Leeds, 321. Shares (late Extensions), 2 % ' 4 65, Manchester and Southampton, 1!i, dis.—North British, Thirds , „.. Ditto , PS 6d. p.—Ditto, Quarters (late Carlisle Branch), 1% —P. . them "tor y►d tensions (scrip), 11s. p.—North Staffordshire, 3 P. Counties Union, 30s. 6d. dis.—South Yorkshire, Don Caster, tie, Coast, Fifteenths' 3°•...„. Goole, 2s. 6d, p.—if est Riding Union, 325. p.—York and NO ic° . Preference, 4 p. . P.—Grel'ate 'ortberti HULL, Maxon 12. ar t re, sO !' II STOCK EXCANGE..—The sales are—North British, Q ,, -- e ~ Extens on (scrip), Ils. 6d. p.—Ambergate, North 11, ston, &c., 46s.—Fleetwood, Preston, and West Riding, Pits P. Newcastle and Berwick, New, 3% p.—West Riding Union, l b GLASGOW, 3feacu 11. CAW STOCK EXCHANOR.—The sales are— Caledonian, N ew , 485.- -- donian and Dunabartclishlre, 46s.—East Lothi an C en tr a l, Co) , burgh and Glasgow, Halves, 601.—Edintitirgh and Perth (Nevr.,,,, nd 61A. --Glasgow, Kilmarnock, and Ay r , 63%—Ditto, HalvesB% —Glasgow, Kilmarnock, and Ard rossan, 574 —Kilmarnock C ep 'Ayr Direct, 378.—Manchester and Southampto n , 17 5 .—Scotus — t 1 al, Morningside, and lioltn e ss, 661. TILE HERRING FISHING.—The Stranraer c1 , 11 : 1 ?;1 was a scene of great b ust l e on S aturday, in conseclue.t"„ t ie the arrival of a nu m b s: o f b oats with herrings. The u""„ri at Ballantrae, off which the herrings are caught, is aced great. Th e act i v i ty of the men is necessarily Pro re by the sh o rt ti me (at most a few weeks) that the u s- t ad main off the c oas t . Th e quantity caught is very grea t, - f o r although they are not this season in the best conditil u t food, their pl en tif u l ness w ill contribute somewhat to ek e ° the scanty meals of poor families.—Ayr Observer. Co Determination of blood to the head, apopleXY','s Efl'ectually prevented by the occasi ,, nal use of FraraP[ t he fill of Health, which, by strengthening the action 0 ' „ o f stomach, and promoting a healthy and regular digest,. i 7bis the food, prevents a recurrence of those symptoms Of jo g alarming disorder, giddiness, oppression of the brain, s t a g voise in the ear, head ache, &c. They are an exce eat , aperient, without griping or prostration of strength , ere to appetite, relieve languor, and invigorate the spirits; wu l t ;ot the free liver or sedentary, they offer great and itnP r i d. advantages. Sold by all venders of medicines. Price Is* d, Strom per box. See the name of "Thomas Prout, 229, London," on the government stamp. is The Antwerp steamer P r i ncess Vi c t or i a , Nay sbe Jackson, effected her passage this voyage in 19 hours. 1 , was up at the St. K a th ar i ne - w h ar f , 'r ower, yester day Inv mg at about six o'clock. pa O? [A DVERTISEMENT.] —TEAS AT WUOLESALE i hn e No. 2, BUCICLERSBURY, CHEAPSIDE.—FamiIies iv" -s e consumption is large, and study economy. considerable advantage at this establishment. O ne ; li g le form price is affixed, by which the purchaser of' e 9 ' l3 ' pound can obtain it on the same terms as the trade. Black Tea 2s. Bd., es., 3s. 4d, 3s. 8d 4s 4e. 4d., .9 .9 Green 3s. 4d., 35. Bd., 45., 4s. 4d. 55., 65., q d, Coffee 9d., 10d., Is., Is. 4d., ls. 6d., Is n , One pound sent free to any part of town. Orders fro the the country forwarded the same day; and whe n is quantity is for 61b. weight (tea only), the carrieg& ., paid to any part of England.--IVIANBELL and wholesale tea dealers, '2, Bucklersbury, Cheapside. vs [ADVERTISEMENT.]_ OF FEARFUL ITDCE I I O . FORES, IN MALTA, BY IloiLoway's PILL/3 AND OINTMENT. __ A a t Will delogi, Duncan, whose husband Is employed In her Majesty's ducky p e r Malta, suffered for more than two years from ulcerous sores ia blyt feet. She formerly resided at Curtis, and was treated by the eat Practitioners there, from wh om , h owever , s h e derived no 0f..ki01., whatever, when, on ly after us i ng f i ve or six b oxes a nd pots 2, tru th loway's Pills and Oi n t ment , a perfect cure was e ff e cted. or t" of this statem en t i s 'h o notorious is Malta , that the editor of . 00 Malta Mail newspaper was i n d uce d to i nser t the partieulta' and t case in his paper of October 31, 1845.—501 d by all druggists , Professor Holloway's Establi s hment, 244, Strand, London. BIRTHS. On the 3d inst., at Craig y Nos, Breconshire, the wife of 1031 9' Powel, Esq., High Sheriff, of a daughter. On the Bth inst., at Westbourne-terrace, Hyde-park, the wife of W. Brotherton, Esq., of a daughter. On the Sth inst. at Stoke Newington, Middlesex , the lady of Ar„.,. lot William Riell, t.,of a son. On the 9th la at at Eyarth House, Ruthin, the lady of Captain Lacon, R.N., of a daughter. On the 10th inst., the wife of Benjamin W. Rawling s, Esq., of 11°In ford, Essex, of a daughter. On the I Ith inst.. in Lincoln's Inn-fields, the lady of P. B. Brod% Esq., of a daughter. MARRIED. On the 10th inst., at 3felksham, Wiltshire, the Rev. William Jack on, to Emma, daughter of E. Phillips, Esq., of Melkshai_ DIED. On the 14th of December, 1846. at sea, on hoard the Seringapata2, i the passage from Calcutta, Thomas Cane, el lest son of Mik/or " - Riddell. 79. On the 6th Inst., at Worcester, Mrs. Anne Wa'house , ag e- On the Bth inst., at the Vicarage, Ropley, Hants, Elizabeth wife of the Rev. Samuel Maddock, aged 61. Atisb On the Bth inst., at Upper Seymour-street, Euston-scluer., Mary Aim Gilbert, aged 63. On the 9th inst., Edward Barron, Esq., of Northiam, Sussex. --. -------- - 1,onOon: rrinted .nt, Published by AITIRDO YOUNG, of No. 114. .4trand, Printer, at Me Sun Office, No. 112. str , ..nd, in the Precinct of tize Savvy, in the County of Middlesex, Saturday , 31 ° 41 13, 1847. . rear^ , e sr (~ -- • h'••li Kier! to would now come to th e I r i s h p ar ty, which presented an P" hers of the most ferocious animals crouching together Is° , harmoniously ; and in the Irish party they saw a number 0 ! gentlemen meeting togAlier, possessing very dittein opinions, and they sa id th a t they sere unw the pr ne.°ll. to give any support to a permanent measure adoptinZ ciple of outd Kir relief. Lord Monteagle said that if the n" 00 sure were adopted it would ruin the landed proprietors . bring asked wha' he mould have instead, he answtrs that the`' should rely upon private c h ar ity, b u t , cannot hold out 1:: that charity would be g r eat e r than it at present c ell He confe,sed that h e was no t disposed to upon that charity for the r e li e f of the Irivb He had already shown what it was.—(Hear, Iles% They then came to th e pri es t s o f F ermo y, and they wood pr%. II that these gentlemen confined themselves exclusively o, to object of the me ling. Their whole object was to see T they could do beat for the relief of the poor, and they hui, ' , solved to have nu'-door r e b e l, an d th en send up a dep utb lai to the Noble Lord. A s soon as t h a t m e ring ra P U t bey known, a strong break-up occurs in the Irish party; be are no where to b e f o und ; th e N o ble Lord whe t aosh goes to Pala c e-y ar d, on ly mee t s th e Hon. Ge ne b er ," opposite, and it is a meeting of " dearly beloved bre!, t in 'l'hey then came to th e ma i n quest i on — w h o was t n il " i o n the poor of Ireland? and out of what fund? In ,b 4 °p old there was only one source from which that maintenaneet pro . come, and that was this land. As soon, however, as th a t position was made, they were met by the assertions tha t ''.7 6 10 Members knew nothing at all about . Ireland, and that bY hit ' t plan all property would. be confiscated, and t " - oort was utterly impossible for the land to 111 .7.. any more than it did at present. Now, these were mere m 7 i o tions, and he. would T rove them such. They had 11 ",.: sti! millions and a half revenue, and they only paid syepeoc n n e d pound, and when they chose to rate themselves as the pl y ht England had done, and t o th e same ex t en t, then they _lv make such an assertion with some d egree o f truth, but 7 0e er then. He had been speaki ng t o a l an dl or d, an d took th r o w sion to remark to him, " Y ou are comp l a i n i ng of tbe , meat forcing this poor-law u p on y ou , b u t y o u week , 7,01 your estate under 26 years' purchase ?" " No," h e ea wins warrant you I would not." That showed the private °N O existing in Ireland. But it was said that the property o f landlords would be confiscated. Now, he did not believe" - i m poit any truth in the assertion. Why, there was very little to to fear that so long as gentlemen were possessed of thel deeds. But if they meant, by confiscation, that the proPe" , o 4 Ireland might change hands, where, through prodifiel it i gt oi imprudence, the means of living and of discharging "l e t , t bee of property had been dimini s h e d, th a t, h e th o ught, re, 1 1;""a the very probable result, to m ee t w hi c h th e N o bl e Lorn.„.ol Secretary for Ireland had prepared and brought in he hoped earnestly th a t th e y would make the IL,' „le sions of that Bill most ample; for the more these were, the greater the advantage would be that the r - t he classes would derive from it. Agai n , it h a d b een said doll s population of Ireland w a s to o d ense . Th a t was evident* great mistake. He found that in England ther e 31,770,615 acres, and that the population was 14,r" - 00 which gave one person for every acre and a Si xth. to the other hand, i n I re l an d th e resu lt was , o ne perms ge two and a quarter acres. He would go further• be would point them not merely to their valuable tier, e6 i t hes also to their waste lands, and he begged to no, i why they did not bring them into cultivation, He was ge l o e i e nt answer, that they wanted the means and the capital sul";,,t q. for that purpose. That was an answer from which he u .A -e to differed, and in confrmation of his own opinion he bellg,:l t e. refer the House t o a wor k on th e i n d ust7 i a l resour ces e s. l y e t land, frequently all u d e d t o by th e N o bl e L or d , t h e Me ru Lynn, when he introduced his measure on r esi Railways. The H onoura bl e M em b er procee ded to , tife extracts from the work i n ques ti on . N ow , h e was F e t tl e( in affirming that the Irish l an dl or d s possesse d es tates is the finest countries in Europe. To be sure, he might 08 that in Ireland they had the finest peasantry in the world. g osh would not stop to disput e th a t on thi s occas i on . If, h o wever , was thecharacter of th e i r p easantry, i n one po i nt o f v iew i t _ it el be admitted that they were a l so th e most gay an d light- 1 7 A is people in the world ; th e one moment they w ere dePr!"; l nt misery and sadness, th e nex t t h ey were given up to eV/ t h e y and display. He must say to the Irish landlords ire teach that people better, if th e y wou ld en d eavour t° 'wdiegt their condition, if th e y wo u ld en li g ht en t h e i r un derstas 100 if they would teach th em th a t h er di ng w i t h sw i ne was 100 their position and dignity—that God had made the ul h opf higher position, th e e ff ec t s wou ld b e t h at t h ey s hould b i e .. 7 g o in seeing abo u t th em a h appy people, arid in hearing im es " -n instead of discontented murmurs. e t, On the motion ot gir W. CLAY. the debate was adieero LIVERPOOL, 3lAacn 12. ..., fi Door STeea EXCHANGE.—The sal es are —Arnbergate, Nottingu ;; end ~..,14 ),.1 I - ton, and Eastern Junction, Bs. 9d. dia.—Bi r k en h ea d, Lenelo cb otef Cheshire, p. —Birmingham and Oxford J u n c tion, 83(irt ;sO. h and Birkenhead, Halves, 23 1 ,4'—Eastern Counties, Perpet ual, Ditto, 1 4e1 G —East Lancashire, I% p . —Di tto, New, 06 P* --- tNorth *ril (scrip), III; p.—Glasgow, Paisley, and Greenock,l7S Wel , (Nos. I to ICH,000), 4 dis.— Ditto (Nos. 108,001 and uplv 4 n o n, dis.- -Huddersfield Canal, and Railway, 214 p.—Ditte, /:I so i Thu P et ' p.—Leeds and Thi rs k, 2 di s . —Li verpool, Cros b y, and ....v ittes 335. 9d. p.— London and North-Western, Quarters, 17% PA s o F."' New, Quarters, 11 9.—Manchester and Leeds, 321. Share , ' ( ~,,,a r tells tension), 2% p. — Blanchester , Sheffield, and Lincolnshire , , sg' D ittio, No. 2, 22% —Ditto, 20!. Shares, IN, dis.—Alidland, 116)6 3 4, 401. Shares, 3% P.—Ditto , New, Wyre, „_ 3 % IL — Preston and Reading, Guildford, and Reigate, 44 this. ex Int.—Sheffield, iltat.'' r . e we and Crewe, % dis.--Shre ws b ury and Hereford, 16c 3d, dls. — S i , Ms bury and Birmingham, 151. 7 a . 9d. -hares (A)-, 3d. Shares (B), Is. 3d p.—Y or k an d N ewcastle, Preference, 4 ' Dutch Rhenish, 3 dis. % p.—Ditto, 9h . . MANCHESTER, 'MARCH 12. and ' STOCK EXCIIANGF T .-- he sales are—Birkenhead, Lancashire , Cheshire Junction, 3-16 c.--Birmingham and Oxford Junct i ,,... °° ' 13.16—Eastern Counties, York Extensions, par —East Ltincal h .„" - i i New, 1 11.16—Ditto, New (scrip), N —Fleetwood, Preston , 2n. West 'tiding Junction, 5-16 p.—Huddersfield and Manchester 1i0',...; • way and Canal, 3—Ditto, Thirds, I—Lancaster and Preston, Quz"; tern, 6%—Leeds and Thirsk, 214 —Ditto, Now, ham), 70—Ditto, ditto, Quarters 9-16—London au - North-Western, New, (A), 10%—Ditto (Manchester and Birrallif: Extension), 21,. (C), 6 1 4 —Manchester and Leeds, 32/. Shares (late —Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire (Great Grimsby $5 Dock), 2 5 ,6—North Statiordshire,3 —North Staffordshire and ChoO e , 1 -16 Valley Junction, 1 h —Shrewsbury and Birmingham (Ai , -5 1,,c,15, (A), 6 —Ditto (13), 6% —VT! Shropshire Union, 15.16—South Yorkshire, Doncaster, and; Fur par— West Riding Union, I%—Wharfdale, % —IV h i tebal en 3 noss, 3% Age - Ir:tryt li na 4 : l4ran. 1 1 c 0: , 100 • GO I °C a:PePectu: gI CZ: I e tt L 64,0tices tre • ~, L ARgs , • 441.,tapn nt, next. kr. the Stt elee Pted), t ST. ft tutee 1 ,,,, asque i tt u toc L t akPlera t h ttt- e Y o an th t tuner a a Led to be t h .4a▪ zzlingly t t ° Produce 1 the tlerid minim:tee res 1 . 11 Perform be con, verity of tip Ain be cup' The Sup] Open at 0 eeivable de number of %netted fo Turner lt,.eaars. Eh 41 tsars. Ci volitam DR:c f icoci () . . - - '".''',', ''''.- • - ' - - ... , -t. 5 .': - . T. • . . '.:. • : 2, ' l- -; ' :I . C( ' NOES i `, ,4 AI GE ~ • to , '' V, th 1 ; i.- "bider 0 y., ' ' Will t , • -- "&trOln T / 06,-.... e • l ii i.w.....teet - - .7"!* '' • 1 • - De ~ i 1 .1 1 , 1 61:: : : 7, ' . : : tetn, 11 :: : :: II , .:'` '.lllMing ,.eafi ' ; Z''' IF * *l.. ' ' • i 4k- ,•i ,' - *an . i: sf •;." , ... , ' : ; z . ... 6 ; ; : z•.' •:',.: ,i . :',...;',2, , 81 :! .: L Palatal f• . 'r'' . - *IMO. ~:,„'. ~,' • 4.4. . ',:..'' . .,0 ; - *al •,; 7,,t,.- , Ma , . % . -,, v MI t ° L a i li t • -•tw k* , ; . '. - ~, A fil • • i . !, •., ; '..p, , 1. .7M 71 ‘ ' h •5 i1''ii.,,.'..7. :'''. . 4 T4H..7 . 1: ( 1( • -4_ a ' - (4 0rge 1 ' • —urge i .. 0110 8 . NE ' ' l Qt ri l -PIE tar t - 7 4 W Poll 4 4 .., tired, 1, l4 mer l e ' pp,., The i ••,,ZPITs tc But Luau . A _These ''‘Pted t o r ) be ; Car, 17 kith° , —512 . Uor atto r tOPui IkTET/c] - „, zuttex mtay be '4 Te, ative l h*ste y eti li'Ojc 1 -