The Sun. — London, England, 1840-01-30 00:00:00

EVEN LNG - EDITION. f 41. 4. C . 7 s aXn; .- 4,.._ --14 to look to motives, but .chat they might be con- 1 that Bill—f, Hear).anel thus had lately made the Elliot I sidered to be. Now he asserted that the facts he had i an open question.—(llear.) Then how could a Govern mentioned led a great portion of the people of Ireland to 1 nient, depending f ,r its support mainly on Dissenters, he believe that the Government of the country approved of the 1 faithful to the Church ? The National Plan of Elues speechee he hedinentioned, and encouraged them. L tat night ' tion was, be Mired, a heavy blow aed great disco rage they had been asked for some tengible fact of inal-aininis- I went to Pcotestantism. He eished a national plan. oiie tretion on the Pert of the Government. He thought that he 1 under which the Church Catechism should be imperativels bad mentioned one point that no one could doubt to be I taught, hut under enieh no children of parents con cienti tangible, via., that the Government in what they hail done ously objecting ebould be compelled to learn it. He would had led the people to believe they encouraged lan- not mere than allude. to the frighful state of our finances : cc .cage which was little better than sedition and tree- was indeed at a loss to express his views of the folly of giving son. There were one or two topics alluded to last up a large revenue from the Pust-office merely by a novel night, to which he wished briefly to addre ss himself. It plan, to secure the favour of a section in that Fl use.' as said that there was no complaint in Ireland with respect Equally might he find field for censure in the Colonial o the system of national education. Complaints there were policy of the Governmt n -. Into the vast arena of Fereien bitter, and reiterated by one class in that country—viz, policy he would net enter, further than to express his joy - he Protestants ; and the reason that no complaints at any prospect of a pacification in Spain. But he wish. d had been made in that House was that they had to recur to the disturbed state of this country, who h it complained for years, and obtained no redress.—( Hear.) Ml 3 impossible the present Government could repair. rhe schools were almost exclusively Roman Catholic, for When they forced themselves back to office, they laid they had been of necessity deserted by the Protestant po- themselves under a compact to give to the Democratic ;ulation. It had been said that if the Right Hon. Bart., party undue weight in the Constitution. And the recent whom they acknowledged as their leader in that House--. changes in the Government only increased the velocity of Hear, bear)—he repeated it with pride, with whom they ' its verging to extreme opinions the R . Hesolution. e should, It onwas these did not differ, and as he would show had n ever differed grounds, give his support to u - upon any essential principle of his Government—it had just to say that if the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member been said if he were to succeed to be Minister of the for Tamworth, returned to power, he would act on con- Crown to direct her Majesty's Councils in Ireland, his fined and narrow principles. There were many Members upport would be and must be the Orange As of the Right Hon. Baronet's party who would never con iodations of the country.—( Hear, hear, hear.) sent to act on what were called old high Tory principles— He could not let the observation pass without stating that ( Cheers from the Ministerial Benches.) The Right Hun. i it was a gross misrepresentation of the principles and cha- Baronet was known to possess a large and a liberal mind— , teeter of the Orange body in Ireland. In the first place he (Ironical cheers)—and it he came into office, any import. would tell the House that no Orange institution subsisted at ant measure he might propose would undoubtedly find a that moment in Ireland. As was perfectly known, the cordial and unanimous support in the great Conservative , Orange Societies were first brought together in 1794. party.—( Cheers.) when rebellion was not only acknowledged, but when Mr. E. RICE said he would give the resolution the Ithe avowed and professed objects of the rebellion praise of being straightforward and direct, but it did not 1 %sere the separation of the Crown of England from Ireland, seem to him in accordance with Conservative objects and and the handing over Ireland t o the dominion of principles. The Government was accused of being weak. IFrance: What he then stated w as matter of history. If the object of tee resolution was to embarrass and wea ke n and the Orange party was formed for the sole purpose the Executive he could conceive of no course more reek of preserving the Union of Ireland with England— less. This question involved higher objects than a change the succession of the Throne, and the allegiance of of Administration—(" Hear, hear," from the Consrrvative Ireland to his Britannic Majesty. As soon as it was side)—and he would beg Gentlemen opposite to reflect if hnown that William IV. expressed his disapprobation of a change of Ministry might not be too dearly purchased tie further existence of the society, and though not com- —( Hear.) From the speech of the Learned Member for pelled by law, the nobility and gentry of Ireland assembled Coleraine (Mr. Litton) he gathered that the effect of the end abolished all the privileges of the Society.—( Hear, late and the present Lord Lieutenant's administration in ii .ar.) He (Mr. Litton) had been accused of establishing Ireland had been most beneficial to that country, though ea Orange Society in Cork—that fact he utterly denied. that was so strenuously denied by the Learned Member There was a case sent to him for h is p rofessional and his friends. He rejoiced to find that peace had been opinion, whether a society with certain rules and regu- restored in that country, though the tranquillity was yet in lations, without secresy, without oath, without de- need of the fostering care of the present Government, be claration, without pledge, was legal and right. He whom it had been raised. He was constantly hearing such gave a legal opinion, which he found was pub- doctrines from the party opposite as these—that to conci lished in the . Newspapere without his sanction, that a society Bate was to truckle to agitators ; and that principle should constituted on those principles was a perfectly legal one. not be sacrificed to peace. This meant, that Roman Ca- He found by the newspapers that society as be thought, tholic Ireland was to be made Protestant by coercion— imprudently meant to call itself, an Orange one, but he that was its real meaning at least. The number of troops asserted it was nothing but a Protestant Association, for which could he spared from Ireland was the barometer of its securing the Protestant succession, and for sustaining the present tranquillity. And if, as was threatened, rebellion ' throne and the Established Church. When he had just should break out in any part of the Empire, he trusted now adverted to the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for the Government would, with clear hands, be enabled to Tamworth, as the leader of his party, he heard something put it down. A great deal of fancied danger was talked of like dissent to that proposition, and he presum ed the in the Established Church. He believed its danger and ground on which the opponents of the Conservative party its safety alike were included within itself ; that its danger rested the idea of a division in their camp, was their dif- lay in the abuses of its discipline, its safety in the purity thrence of opinion on the privileges of the House ; now, in of its doctrines.—(Cheers.) And wishing, as he did, to his bumble judgment, those privileges did not embrace any see the Church prosper and increase, he thought he was a one part er atom of those public principles by which they more sincere friend to it in endeavouring to correct, than were held together. The Right Hon, Baronet, and many others were in trying to pollute, its abuses.—( Hear, hear.) I :lon. Members wheacted with him, thought the House had a The Church was always put in front of the battle by gen t law of its own, whereas he (Mr. Litton) and others thought demon opposite, and made the pretext for refusing any great 1 the law of the land was paramount to every body, and if measure of national reform, especially that of education. on such a difference as that, they rested their hope of a Hon. Gentlemen opposite were the worst friends of the 1 livision in their camp, he wished them joy of Church—they were the mistaken friends cf the Church, I it, but it was wholly fallacious. There was one who put a stumbling-block in the way of every improve { other question on which eighty-eight Members of ment of our institutions.—( Hear, hear.) He was glad this j that House had agreed with him in o pp osition to motion had been made, aed he hoped the House e Quid, 1 the Right Honourable Baronet, and in the long catalogue after it had been disposed of, direct its attention to sob er opinion which they held together this was the only jects more affecting the interests of the people, than cities ( question on which they differed. He meant the second tions of privilege and party.—( Hear, hear.) The ques reading of the Irish Municipal Bill; he had voted against tion of the Corn-laws ought to be immediately taken into the second reading because he felt that although the prin- consideration. The Hon. Member for Kilmarnock had eiple of election existed in that Bill, yet it was so swamped asked for a dissolution. Although he (Mr. Rice) was not and destroyed by the details that it could lead to no free afraid of a dissolution, and an appeal to the people, yet he election at all ; and feeling this, he had voted in the first did not wish for a dissolution, because he believed it would instance against the second reading of the Bill, and what lead to agitation, and all he wished for was peaceful and had been the result? Why what belied predicted, that this Bill useful agitation. —( Hear, hear. ) had been found so radically defective that it never could, Mr. PA K ING TON believed, that in the vast and com and never would, pass the House of Lords. When a Bill plicated affairs of this great empire, there was ne one was full of details in opposition t o it s p ro f e ssed principle, branch of its affairs that did not, at this moment, afferd a :t could hardly be considered as the principle, but the ex- fair ground for inculpation and attack on her Majesty's ception—and on this very question his Hon. Friend had Government.—( Hear, hear.) He cared little whether voted with him against the third reading of the the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Devon measure, because they found when it came out shire was negatived by a majority of 2 or a majority of of Committee that although its principle might 10, but the result of it would be to create a feeling of be good, its details were objectionable. Could this confidence throughout the country, and to show that there he called a difference? It was but teeing different roads was a party in that House, strong in number and ability -7o the same end, and working to the same goal by differ- (Ironical cheers)—who were prepared to follow that great eat paths. If it could be called a difference between them statesman whom they acknowledged as their leader, and and the Right Honourable Gentleman they were proud with whom they were prepared to stand by the institutions to acknowledge as their leader, he would give Honourable of Engtand.—( Hear, bear.) He regretted this motion was Gentlemen opposite the benefit of it; but he beseeched not brought forward last year instead of now, because he them not to rest their fragile hopes on such a difference. was certain that last year it would have been successful, Over and over again last night, it was asked and they would then have been saved the evils that had what were the political principles of the Con- been inflicted on the country between last year and the servative party ?—( Hear.) He would state what present time. Her Majesty's Government in the interval, those principles were, as held by himself, and he be- in order to secure the support of the ultra-Liberal Mem lieved that there was n o diff e rence b e t wee n himself and berg, had consented, most unwisely and unworthily, to his brothers on that side of the House—principles in make concessions to that democratic spirit which of late which they followed their leader without any difference had been so prevalent.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it whatever. Bat what were their differences compared with was unworthy of the character of the Noble Lord to con the questions on which they agreed? The Education cede to that democratic spirit, and to make the Ballot an question, the Jamaica question, the Canada question — on open question. Then there was the concession of the all the great points of domestic, foreign, and colonial Penny Post. The post-horse duty had much better have policy they were agreed. The policy of the Conservative b ee n abolished ; and to concede the Penny Post at a party would be to discourage sedition throughout the time when the country was in great financial difficulty country—(Cheers)—and to see that the Magistrate' of was a most unworthy bidding for popularity on the part of the eountry were pure and unsullied—not to suffer our the Government. He would state a few instances which 11. 4 g, to be dishonoured or our trade to be crippled. induced him sincerely to believe that the interests of the ) On every occasion in which Gsvernment had the power, monarchy and the interests of the Protestant Church they had done all possible injury to the Established were in danger so long as the present Ministers retained Church. For all these reasons he should rote for the Re- office.—( Hear, hear.) One reason was, that they bad, solution. during the whole time they had been in office, encouraged Mr. D E NI STOUN then rose and said he would leave agitation. They had, both at home and in the Colonies, to Gentlemen more connected with Ireland to follow the done everything they could to suppress the expression of lion. and Learned Member who had just sat down through lo} alty, while disaffection had met with promotion and re -11:3 long and dull speech. He rose to state the part which ward. Nothing had excited disapprobation more strongly as a Radical Member he should adopt on this question. than the manner in winch her Majesty's Governmenii had At once he would state his intention to vote against the prostituted the bench of justice to party purposes. Resolution. The real question he understood to be ( Hoar, hear.) The Hon. Member for Kilmarnock last whether the House were d:sposed to give its confidence to night alluded to the circumstance of Chief Justice the Noble Lord (J. Russell), or to the Right Hon. Ba- Bolton, of Newfoundland, nosing been deprived of his react (Sir R. Peel). Now the Right Hon. Baronet had office. He would mention another instanceof the Attorney always been behind the spirit of the age. He had been General of Upper Canada, who, because he ventured to thus backward at the Catholic Emancipation Bill and express a strong feeling of regard towards the Church of 1 at the Reform Bill ; whe r e as the Noble Lord had Engla n d , was dismissed from his post. But on the other throughout his public life acted u p t o the principles hand what had been the conduct of the Government to he had professed at first startin g in his course. The wo rds those who entertained feelings of an opposite cha main question was , what right had lion. Gentlemen racter. He would mention the case of Mr. Biddell, who opposite to the confidence of the country ? They pro- had been put on the Bench in Upper Canada, but who fossed, it was true, at all their p u blic meet i ngs , t o be the was now an exile for treason.—( /leer, hear.) Again, opposers of every kind of abuse—let it be shoran to them Mr. Biddarr in Lower Canada, than whom no one was that there was any real abuse, and they would be the first more conspicuous for his lung continued course of d.saf to remedy it. What, however, bad been their policy? fection towards the Government, yet he had been reeenn- He would take the instance of the Reform Bill, and he mended and appointed to the Bench of Justice, and had put it tothe House, whether the Hon. Gentlemen opposite si n c e been suspended for his share in the agitation in bad not done all in their power to thwart the working of Lower Canada. To come nearer home they found that that measure ? There lead not been a s ogle motion made in spite of warnings the notorious John Frost had been by any Member of the House to give that Bill a fair trial placed on the Bench —( Expressions of disapprobation w hich they had not opposed. There was another subject from the Ministerial Benches.) He understood these which he wished to a llude t o . H e wou ld ask th e Noble groans, but was it or was it not a fact that the L or d, the Member for North Lancashire, what had been Noble Nord had received ample warnings of the character his conduct with regard to the question of Fictitious and conduct of Jelin Frost? did he not place John F. oston Votes in Scotland ? 'l' he present state of the law on that the bench ? and what was now the fate and condition of subject was admitted by all parties to be a great abuse. that man ? ( Cries of " Oh, oh.") But in all the mai , —( Hear, hear. ) The Lord Advocate bad brought administrations of the Government, he thought the dukes! el a Bill last Session to do away with that abuse. act was that of offering a seat on the bench of justice to ' The Noble Lord, however, had said that he would not the lion. iind Learned Member for Dublin —( Laughter allow that measure to pass, as it introduced a new principle. from the Ministerial benches ) When any point of policy But if he objected to the principle, was he net was alluded to which Hon. Gentlemen opposite did not bound, as a consistent man, to bring forward like, they always tried to meet it by an unmeaning laugh. some other motion equally effective, and that would not be —( Renewed laughter.) He was happy to see the Hon. I liable to his objection ? this wished to call the attention of and Learned Member for Dublin in his place. He might i the House to anothe r q uestion. In the event of the Right receive his (Mr. P.'s) observations as lie liked. lie would Baronet succeeding in his motion, what, he would ask, say nothing, unparliamentary, or intentionally offensive to Icoals' be the position of the Corn-laws and o f fr e e trade ? him ; but this he would not shrink from stating, that look IWas it to be supposed that the Cabinet of the Right Hon. i „g to the political career of that Hon. Ind Learned Morn -1 Baronet could be otherwise than cordially united in resist- ber, from the commencement of it to the present moment, I ing every proposition for inquiring into the operation of he could not conceive anything more disgraceful or dig. ' those laws; and if that were the case, bow could he pre tend to the confidence of t h e countr y ? There was another career of that Hon. and Learned Gentleman by a porno point which he wished to allud e to: it was that of relieieus creditable to any Administration than to terminate the Lion to the Bench of Jestice —( Cheering and counter-cheer liberty, which, under the administration of the Right Hon in g.) The House might depend on it that the country was IBart., would become nothing better than a farce. How was not insensible to this, and so long as the Bench of Justice was it, that when Government had appointed two Roman Ca- thus prostituted, her Msjesty's Ministers would riot be re- I tholic Gentlemen to offices in the State a savage howl had garded by the respectable portion of the people with any feel ; been raised against them from one end of the country to fines but those of horror and alarm. The conduct of the Go the other e—ol ear , b ea r.) H o nourable Gentlemen opnoe ve'rnment was most dangerous to the Church of England. site did not, it was true, avow their sentiments on that I me eting or a dinner held by their party through the coon- Did the Church of England trust t hem ?—( Hear, hear.) übject in the House: but was there, he would ask, a Had the Church ot England an y confidence in an y p ortion of her Majesty's G o vernment? God forbid that he should ; try at which these murmurs had not been the staple ar- a with regard to the private professions of lion. I i idle ? He was assured, for his part, that in the event of Hon. Gentlemen opposite suecesding to the Administration collective s a ' n o t n le e m w e o n r opposite,. but this he must say—that in their a Government they were hostile to e f the country, there would be an end to religious liberty. capacity For those reasons it was, seeing that the Reform Bill the best interests ofasthe Ch l it e r s c r h , , h a e n a d r. s ) ue \ h v d h - e a n s t t h h e ey g l eLe k r e a d l opinion of the country.—( would not have a fair trial, and seeing that religious liberty would not be likely to be promoted ; for these reasons he Bishopsto the Appropriation clause —to th t e h a e tte E m d p u t ea t t oiudnesscheme. to opposed the motion of the Hon. Baronet. And he would _of their property advise the Government, if they wished confidently to carry 1 scouted eit by all the country—hnd when they looked to the ...n the administration of public affairs ; he said he would Q r u c e u e m n s h anc th e e o p f the ri eprmesiennsttatrion of the infidel i they could not but feel that advise them strictly to inquire into public affairs—to en- the Chur y ch of England land and e Protstant institutions were deavour to raise the moral and physical condition of the not safe in the kee g "' o • f the p res ent Administration.— people, and study to se cure, not the fleeting support of the ( Hear.) The Hon.phlegmber for Glasgow (Mr. Denistoun) majority of the House of Commons, but what was in. had said that the latex ppointments of Roman Catholic s to f initely superior, the acquies cence and su pp ort of the office had been greeted - With a savage howl throughout the people. kingdom. The objection to those - appointments was not Mr. G ALLY KNIGHT wished particularly to allude because the Hon. Member for Wide ford or the Hon. causenh o f e x m i obuesr theyt f o o ra hadTli rn i eputapenTtne otherh r tm a i cora intentions majority r w oigtbn e yr r .uoo e tumfu ß htdehe t ms ) to the disturbed state of the manufacturing districts. For many years the county he represented had been in a most oelrn a e : t ee\ l i cdvo, f o fa l tttt i h c ehh isreos—fmolcresoi Waterford was nshitnt:rsil na.bnabe no disturbed state: the Chartists organizing, and arms col lecting ; while the well-disposed part of the inhabitants uad been in a continual state of warm—( An ironical cry ( doubt llear' h i o i r e ie r st of " Hear" from Lord John Russell) —and only a few vocates of a system of education, which they beli g eved days ago one of the principal towns had, by the vigilance hostile to the best interests of the nation. It had been of the Magistrates alone, been rescued from destruction ; stated, as a boast, that the results of certain of the elections and eight gentlemen h a d b een , it was afterwards, found, had been in favour of the Government, but it ought to be selected for savage murder. All this he laid to the charge recollected a certain number of seats had been vacated at hmwbpra:eenrsno fdpCot t , f the Government—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from the discretion of Government—they had selected the places, i the Treasury benches).- for, not having risen from dig- and the elections h ad been carried b y ver y sle nder and I tress, these riots would never have gone to such a length narrow majorities —(Cries of " Oh, oh.") Lo ,k at I had not the reins of Government been slackened—(lroni- Newark.—( Hear, hear, on the Opposition benches.) I n •, eel cries of " Hear, hear," especially from Lord J. Rus- Newark not only was the election carried by a slender sell). He owned it would always be difficult to ma jority, but, if the p ublic were informed ri g htl y , carried govern the manufacturing districts—still that was by extraor dinary means.—(lronical cheers from the Mio rather a reason why the first s y m p toms of insubordination nisterial benches.) Falmouth and Devonport might almost be I should be suppressed.—( Hear.) The population ought said to be in the po wer of the Government, but the elections not eto have been left under the influence of se di t i ous to w hi c h he had ra in Ted were not the only ,e election' , which I harangues and poisonous publications, which should have I been checked long ago.—(Hear.) But he well recollected l had taken place —( Cheers.) But let Hon. Gents, l e e—( Cries of " Oh, oh I")—and he , ideeht / 1 the declaration of the Noble Lord opposite at Liverpool—Neeiewmabsenrsotumprshiteg.roußniuttotrh,l:(:n sgt l i (Hear) —and the self-laudatory and unfortunate compli- that on to theßevewlitio..le the 1 meats of the Attorney-General at Edinburgh.--( Hear.) on the part of I - 1 • ~ i t Iro s teppistry had deprived themselves, however, of the to which he athacohne'd moT re h im v ro ic r t t u a r n y ce at was il i t r h m at in w g h h i a c m leto h o a k d 4,- •• 'of staying these discontented proceedings. They lace at Birmingham. riet er li teed proceedings themselves, and countenanced --. '..-. o beenthe • main boast He h e ad not the slightest doubt that -el _ :ids s d liclieersive of the Altar and the Throne.—( Hear.) n - wertieen friendly to the Reform Bill—( Sarcastic : the Hon. his Member whbothande mustjust b re e m en ind re H tu u r n ned G w er a t s ie m m o e s n t ()Hest in views ; but . es- se . -skein the Ministerial Benches)—but the present opposit e , when they boasted of the victory at Birmingham. -v,,Le elem jilt had always shown a readiness to tamper with that that Hon. Gentleman had open l y avowed on rho bust ings that he was a Republican.---( Hear, hear, hear.) I deluded men in their eisnsrereus career, for by the acqui- They sloes:id see whether the Ministers were to be bone- essence of the Government they were evidently led to fitcd ey his support,__( )Hear, hean ); They should soon I think they were loin se en harm. He would put it to that see why he !i -, en tool e: , his seat behind the hacks of - House whether the Geeerninent might not, by timely Ministers.--( Hear, and , ries or, ‘• Order ") Tiiie was meas erca, have put e stop to the alarming practices another rea- ei why her Majesty's Government shound be of the Cliarti_ts?—fleer, hear, hear.) Much had declared unfit to (es continued in office.—( Hear, and been said about the till et of unity on his (Mr. Parker's) laussieer.) They in*lit rest assured that he would have side of the House. Would Hun. Members on the ether hi s price. - , •ries ot " Order, Orner.") side allow the convei se of :het argument, for, if it held Mr. SC ii OLE FIEL D begged to ask the Sneaker if geeed on one side, so it ought oe the other?—(Cheers.) it were cerrect and i,arliamentary that such language In 1837 the H.e). Member for Dub , ie, and the' Hon• should be made use of bs any Hon, Member of that House Member for Kilkenny, were encouraging rebellion in towards another Hon. Member. Canada ; was there then unity on that ride t f the Heuse.. The SPE AKER hoped the H. - in. Member would see from which the char e e of a want of unity had been made ? the necessity of explsining his observations to that Howe. I Were the questions of the Ballot and th Corn-laws of no Mr. PA K I NGT ON said he le of not the slightest in - importance , end was the Ho , . Baronet ("Sir George Grey) tention of sa eng one word that would be calculated to hurt prepared to say that on these subjects there was unity on the feelings of any Honourable Gssels man, and by makiee, that side of the House ? and might they not appropriately be use of the word price, he essured the Honourable ' brought into question with reference to the want of unity Member for. :iirmingham his meaning, when he ap- which had bee:, tall aid of? Was there unity on the repeal of plisti it to t e P.onourable Gentleman, was precisely the the Union, or were ,ley prepared to join in the adoption of same as if that Hon. Member for Birmingham had as- that measure 2—if not, what value was the observation ? sorted that he (Mr. Pakington) had his price for sup- and if they were not prepared to join the adoption of those porting the Hen. Member for Tamworth.—( Hear.) lie measures, there was no such unity on that side of the hoped, therefore, that this explanation would be deemed House as coubt furnish grounds for confidence.ia the Go satisfactory ; and he a gain repeated, in the most distinct vernment.—( Hear, hear.) He would ask, in conclusion, terms, that be intended no offence.—( Hear, hear.) He when the people were armed, when inflammatory would there ore resume his arguments by alluding to the speeches were being openly made throughout the coun fact of a Member of Republican principles bensg so lately try, and when, in consequence of this, the whole garrison returned a es a Member of that House, and a determined of London had been kept under arms an entire night, supporter of her Majesty's Government.—( Cries of were there no grounds for the motion of a want of confi " Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) He had, therefore, dente in her Majesty's Government ?—( Cheers.) no hesitation in saying that such facts were well calculated Lord HOW ICK said, the Hon. Member for Oxford to excite the utmost alarm and consternation throughout shire had stated that the only difficulty which he found in the country. The Hon. Member for Lambeth, who, he the discussion of the motion now before the House eas sorry to say was not then his pliee, made use of an arose not from want of matter, but from a superfluity of ohtervat'on during his speech on the last evening in sup- it. Still be had heard of no matter of sufficient importance port of the Ministry, and that was "that all the country to justify a resolution of such an unusual character As that wanted was a steady Government." He (Mr. Pakington) of a VOW of want of confidence in her Majesty's Ministers. completely 'sok up this observation as his own, and repeat- Such a vete had never been conic to by that House, except ed it, " what the country wanted was a steady Govern. in cases of the greatest difficulty, and most urgent neces ment." But he thought the Hon. Member for Limbed] site, and no reason of that sort had been assigned in sup was singularly unfortunate in making use of such words port of the present motion. The Hon. Member ( Sir G. while he was attempting with all his zeal and ability to Grey) who had replied to that charge last night, had most support the present Government.—(Hear, hear, from the completely answered it ; and he (Lord tiowick) should Opposition ) Why, how could he have appli e d the words net now have ventured to take part in the present debate, steady Government" to her Msjesty's Ministers? Let but that he felt it incumbent upon him to state them examiee their conduct with regard to the Appro- the circumstances under which it had become his duty to priation Clause. Let them examine their conduct with withdraw from office as a member of the present Govern regard to Jamaica—and to their Education plans. Was ment, and in stating which he hoped he should be favoured it not notorious that they were constantly changing with the indulgence of the House. Those circumstances their policy and conduct, for the purpose of obtaining a presented features of no ordinary difficulty, for no public narrow and miserable majority—(Cheers from the Oppo- man was justified on light grounds in withdrawing from sition)—and maintained their places by a series of vacille- a Government of which ho formed a part.---( Cheers.) tiers, ? What was said in another place by a Noble ( Here the Hon. Member was proceeding when he was Lord ? If that Noble Lord were well reported, he momentarily interrupted,) If the Hon. Member for made this observation—" That this country must strut- Lewes had sat as long in that House as he (Lord Howick) gle to keep its place among nations."—(llear.) Was had he would have known that an Hon. Member placed not that a fact which it was impossible for any reasonable in the position in which he (Lord Howick) then man to doubt ? Was not that enough for every unpreju- was, ought to be permitted to speak without inter diced man to see that the time was come when it was ne- ruption.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He was stating that ces-ary, for the presersetion of the Crown and Constitu- he had not taken the step alluded to on very tion, to have a sound Protestant Ministry in office.— light grounds, but in his explanation on this point he had (Hear, hear. ) This ea: en empire which embraced such one unpleasant word to state against the Government with vast and extensive let resn, as requir' d a steady and deter- which he had acted so long, with whom, he believed, he mined Gosernmeet to ersserve it from the dangers which yet continued on terms of uninterrupted friendship, arid were constantly threatenng then, He, therefore, per- whose measures be was still prepared to support. The fectly agreed with ih-s Member for Lambeth, that a House would recollect the circumstances under which the " steady Government" was what they then required to Government tendered its resignation in May last, It was punish the disaffected, and put down with a strong arm then stated that they were driven to that step by not the spirit of sedition which was so general and widely having that support which alone could have enabled them spread. He thought that such statesmen as sat on his to conduct the Government of the country. He was deeply side of the House were only fit to hold the reins of Go- aware of the consequences which must result to the country vernment, and who were only competent to control the from that state of things, and he thought it was of import the spirit of the times, and extinguish every spark of sedi- once to state that at that time there was no one of the tion and Chartism which had spread itself throughout the great leading questions which was not made a party mat country with such fearful rapidity. In conclusion, he ter. It was not without the greatest difficulty they had begged to give his most, candid support to the motion o f undertaken that step, and they had not without reasons of the Hon. Member no Devonshire. the greatest weight undertaken the resolution of with- Mr. MUNTZ (who on his rising was received with drawing from a Government, which was so much indebted loud cheers, end erica of " Hear the new Member") said to that House for the support it had received. Though he thought he was justified in calling on the Ho n. Mem ber,who had just sat down, for an explanation, after the difficulties which surrounded the empire, it was essential, unprovoked attack which ho had made upon him. He as soon as the Session terminated, to give increased power (Mr. Mentz) confessed that for years past be was charged to the Government. Such was the opinion of many Menu with professing Republican principles. He was free hers of the Government, and others in that House. They to say, though he was a Republican in principle, he was felt that in any change of the Government, the great point not so in practice.—(Hear, hear.) If he were asked was to recover the confidence of the country, which desired would he take a change of Government at the present a liberal policy, but were still averse'to any ()Sher great period, considering the weight of an overgrown Church constitutional changes: He had observed that month by Establishment and other evils, which would be likely to be month, many steady support.rs of the former Whig Govern increased, he should be the last man to give his conspet ment, were falling cif and joining their opponents. to such a change.—( Hear, hear.) He begged to inform Changes were necessary, but such changes as would the Hon. Gentleman that he did not seek for a seat in that give the Government a character of the utmost energy, House, nor did he ask for one single vote throughout out adhering at the same time to constitutional measures. his election, but be might truly say he was pushed into He was not aware what were the views of his friends in that House against his will —(Cheers.) He asked those the other House of Parliament, but this he knew, that the Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House, if, instead arrangement then come to did not answer the description of his taking his seat on the Ministerial side, he had of the measures wished for, but seemed to have an opposite shifted his quarters to the Opposition, would they be in- effect. Those changes were not made known to him till clined to find fault with his vote, or to taunt him for his within a few days before Parliament assembled. He told former principles ?—( Hear, and laughter.) He had known his friends in the Government of his views. He told them Sir Francis Burdett in his former days of glory.—( Here he had given the matter his most serious consideration ; the Hon, Member was interrupted by cries of " Order, he was aware of its importance, and it was not till order.") Ha might have been out of order, and begged after the full e st co .sideration that he wrote a letter to apologize, but he recollected the Hon. Baronet the embodying his views. He would not now M 'her for Wiltshire some 'ears ago. when he was state his objections to the projecte . d changes eember iltsye. equally honoured by the abuse of those Hon. Members, who, the moment he changed his principles, was received by them with open arms and rapturous applause.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He freely admitted that her Majesty's Government had not done all the good which he had wished—(" Hear, hear, hear," from the Opposition)—but he would not, however, upon that account, refuse them his vote upon that occasion. —(Ministerial cheers.) Being on his legs, he hoped he would be allowed to make a remark upon the particular subject they had met to debate, and that was, as he understood it, " Whether the country would give their confidence to the Ministry?" He said they would not, because they had too nearly followed the practices and footsteps of the Gentlemen on the other side of the House.—(Cheers.) The Ministry were certainly guilty of many fAults—and what were they ? That they had too nearly 'allowed the example of the Tories, and that was the only reason they did not enjoy the confidence of the country.—(Cheers.) Let them never again truckle to that party, who were as inimical to them as to the best interests of the country.—( Hear, hear.) Let them come forward boldly, manfully, and independently, as all men should do, and be prepared to stand or fall by the line of conduct they thought ought to I.e pursued, and, by so doing, they would hare the support and confidence of the great body of the people of England.—(The Honourable Gentleman sat down amid loud and long-continued cheering,) Capt. BERKELEY said he was greatly astonished at the course pursued by the gentlemen opposite during that debate. The last Hon. Member who had spoken on that side of the House only followed in the wake of those who went before, and repeated the attacks which had already been so Afters made with the same weapons. A great por tion of teie censure on tire Government was in conse quence of the appointment of Frost to the Magistracy. On the last evening the Noble Lord the Member for Monmouthshire asserted that the Noble Lord the Member for Stroud refused to appoint a gentleman, to the Magis tracy who had been staougly recommended by the Town Council of Bristol. It would be extremely desirable that Members sh ruld make greater inquiry before they should hazard an (pinion or assertion upon it.—( Hear, hear.) Now the very contrary was the feet—for the Noble Lord the Member for Stroud received tine nomination of the Town Council of the city of Bristol. and actually ap pointed that gentleman to the magistracy ; and if an - thing further was recess try to say upon the subject, he should inform that Hon. Member, that when disturbances broke out there a short time ago, that self same gentleman received the immarked thanks of th.., Town Council for tire manner in which he acted during that period.—(Cheers. ) He would not have thought it necessary to say so much on the subject, but for an article whicn appeared in the Times newspaper of yesterday, and in which the subject was no ticed. It bad also been charged against the Government, that they bad given encouragement to Chartism. He was not altogether prepared to defend all the acts of her Ma jest‘'s Government, but it was his opinion that Chartism had arisen in this country in consequence of the faults and defects which existed in the Reform Biil—( Hear, hear) and it had gained strength and vitality by Tory agitation. —( Cheers.) He had merely risen to set the Noble Lord tight in what he had asserted ; but, he (Ciptein Berkeley) was at the came timi• confident that he made the statement, not knowing it to be incorrect. Mr. PARKER next rose, but, from the low tone in which he spoke, it wits quite impossible to hear one sen tence distinctly; but we understood him to say, that the difficulties of the country were con.pletely oc casioned by mal- tdaniaistration. With reference to Ireland being alltgr d to be in such a state of quietude, that the miiitary e - ere taken away from it, he bet eed to remind the House that though a great portions of the military had been removed, their want was merle up by en additional force of police. He was pre pared to justify the motion of the Hon. Ilaronea and he considered the general character of the speeches from the Ministerial slit: was more a series of inquiries, as to what the policy of his party would he, or what conduct they would pursue, if they had the reins of Government, than replies to the charges brought against them. Although he felt bound to say that no one could have listened to the magnificent speech of the Hon. Member for 11,vonport, without being delighted—( Hear, and cheers)—he could not but observe that the policy pursued by the Noble Lord who represented her Majesty, was fully calculated by its injudicious example to increase those difficulties that had existed. With reference to India, he thought the Hon. Baronet the Member for I)evonport, was rather premature in his observations, until they received some more satisfactory accounts from that quarter, with reference to the late expedition, than had already arrived What was the state of England, when Chartism was openly advocated on the opposite side of the House, by an individual now no longer a member of the Senate ? lle elluded to Feargus O'Connor who was the very essence of Chartism, and wile was its constant supporter in that' House. He really should have thought it too hard to (barge the Government o naciertsitd not with haveallt, dealt with underheevilsofChartis anym,if i t was a thing • cirmmstance But Getnrnment had been too indulgent with it—they had encourged it_ they had taken no steps to suppress it, when, day after day, its evil results were was gshutr attempted,pris surprised that,n no thing being openly and un e q uivocall y developsd.—( Hear, hear.) on the other side of w ht not Government t l tt h hh .h i e en i s g s ti v o n hu a d a s s i de c a . a h t g i e o r (e a n ni v i e e t s ahaer; hd ear.) Cri respecting a b n e e d Bnhuilt'a itst o w u g to have protected the people from its contamination, and from being led away by the destructive influences which had been so mischievously at work amongst them ? All this lad been goinr , on fur a long time without any steps h l, :i k ; e !re b t e i nt . lie' ,s i t n h a e t t G,,,;stvioenrnomnent, the o p r w art i t u h f out Go vernment bad given rise to a d an gerous conviction among the gave riseelowero to orders that andth arirpmredoeeedings were not illegal. It essemblages of the masses. Why had Government not then exercise(' its vigilance, and spheoowplnet,h,aetrethonsremmedeeatinnagsdi ip a,nedplijrrliceedines were unlawful ? N s such steps had be en t a k en , and now masses of t he deluded di sc iplined on a system not dissi milar to her Nlajesty'e troops. He maintained that it was the duty of her Majesty's Ministers to have stopped these casiseis. For these reasons, it always appeared to him highly inexpedient. so soon after great changes in the con stitution of Parliament, to recommence that work. But if he entertained those opinions before the disturbances or easi,ned by Chartist agitation, he entertained them far roore strongly since that time.--( Hear, hear.) He was sure no one could hare observed the state of feeling amongst a large proportion of the working classes with out being greatly alarmed at the discontent at existing in stitutions. Tile combinations among them in reiii.ste parts of the country were symptoms calculated to excite great alarm. He knew it had been said, and by autho rity perhaps the last he should have expected would have lies n brought forward in support of such an opinion, that such discontent proved the necessity of concession to re move it. He dad heard the same opinion that evening from the Hon. Member for Glasgow, who said the people would nsver be quiet until a larger proportion of them were admitted within the pale of the Constitution. He coofsssed he could not concur in that opinion. He thought it inipos4ble fur any man who had paid attention to the Ch amist meetings, without having perceived that the public speakers on those occasions, who impressed upon their hearers the necessity of those violent changes in the Constitution, had not relied upon any argument to show what measures for the good of the country they had power to adopt, and had neglected or attempted to prove in what respect the House had betrayed its duty. Such was not their object ; but they proceeded to infer at once, from the distress and suffering is some parts, the bad work ing of the Constitution; that if Parliament were what it ought to be, that distress would hive been dispelled like the morning mist, and plenty diffused throughout the land, and they had endeavoured to impress upon their deluded hearers the conviction that the result of obtaining political power would have been the improvement of their condi tion—higher wages for less work being what every labour ing' man throughout England hoped for ; and he knew that more than one Gentleman it, the course of the debate had said that one symptom of the present discon tent was, that it prevailed amongst the highest paid classes of labourers. He was not prepared to dispute that tact; but he thought the history of the many strikes which had taken place in this country, and of dis ptCes from time to time between the employers and the employed, proved the fact that it was not always real dis tress which had the greatest tendency to produce desire for higher wages among the labourers of this country. Gen. tlemen representing manufacturing towns would confirm the truth of what he alleged, and be could appeal to any Gentleman who had taken the trouble to consider the speeches made at Chartist meetings, whether the bait held out to support their plans was not that which he described ? whether it was not, as one speaker said, a knife and fork question, and one of great importance as respected the physical condition of the working classes? Nuw while no possible change in laws could produce any immediate im provement in the condition of any society, still less could such improvements be brought about by a change in the constitution of the Legislature ; which was only the instru ment by which laws were made ; an improvement of the condition of the people could only be the slow and gradual work of themselves, encouraged by good laws and govern ment. Good laws could work no miracles; they could not add one fraction to the amount of national wealth. All the best Government could accomplish was the encouragment of industry, providing for the security of person and property, and encouraging the formation of those habits of industry and virtue, which alone would be the source of the welfare and prosperity either of individuals or the community. But if this were the case, it was obviously impossible to deal with the discontent which now prevailed in the manner recommended to them, which they called taking a large portion of the people into the pale of the Constitu tion, it could have no such effect. They now said they were disappointed in the Reform Act, because it had not worked the miracles just adverted to ; but must not the consequences follow to the whole extent? They asked that which amounted to no less than the entire subversion of the Constitution of the country ; and would it not then remain for those whose trade it was to play upon the pas sions, and mislead men to their ruin, to advise those mea sures and disturbed notions which they already expressed, that every capitalist and man of property, ought to be re garded as an oppressor and enemy of the working man ? Measures of this description, if carried, would be common to all, but to the working classes more than any other.— ( Hear, hear.) But if this were a true description of the actual portion of the country,—if this was the state of that wide-spreading desire for changes which were impracticable without extreme danger, and leading to extreme confusion, surely common prudence would teach them they ought most carefully to avoid any measure which could encourage the expectation among the labour ing population of the country ) of farther champs in the Constitution, or which could lead them to distrust the per formance of existing institutions; and here he could not help observing to those Hon. Gentlemen who pressed for a further measure of Reform in the Constitution of the country, however unintentionally, that they played the game of those parties who had very different designs.—( Hear, hear.) He said so, because it was impossible they could accomplish the object they had in view by any ether mean than producing on the public mind the impression, that Parliament, as now constituted, did not do its duty. The first step was to pull down what now existed—to shake the credit of the present institutions of the country in the minds s and in so saying" he claimed the indulgence of th e H ouse; ' o f men , and thus prepare the way for further changes - but he would state that the changes then in contemplation Hear, hear)—and as at the time of the Reform Bill they presented no insuperable difficulty. It was to the Ad- were obliged to a certain extent to act with those who ministration, taken as a whole, and the result of all had different ultimate objects to themselves, so changes taken together, which determined him to take at this time those who now disclaim most seri the course he had adopted. After that letter, other cor- ously the objects of the Chartists, were, however respondence followed, but not one of the objections unintentionally, co-operating with them.—(Hear, hear.) I which he had himself raised were admitted to be valid ; But this was not all, nor perhaps the most serious con but measures to which he objected having been adopted, sideration. He thought of all evils which could most he deemed it his duty to tender his resignation, which the seriously affect a country, perhaps the most serious was (louse was aware had teen accepted. He had now stated im- frequent changes in the form of government in the distri perfectly, perhaps, but sincerely,the grounds of his conduct. bution of political power. He thought the recurrence of Even at that time it was impossible for any man to regard such changes was, far more than the changes themselves, the state of the country but with deep anxiety, if not ap- attended with evil. Every man who had considered prehension. He certaLly did not anticipate the discontent the subject must be aware that time and prescription gave which the public was aware existed in the institutions of the greatest strength to all Governments. Governments the country among a large proportion of the working of all kinds rested ultimately on opinion, and man was so population, would so soon break out in open revolt. He constituted that time and prescription had the strongest had no ide a th e d a nger was at that time so imminent, but hold upon their minds and opinions. Frequent at the same time it did appear to him that the kind of die- changes, therefore, of all things were most to content h e k new t o prsvail could not long continue without be deprecated. He asked Hon. Members, who were leading to serious omisequeacts—which made it neces- now calling for great and serious changes in the Reform sary that the constitution of the Government Act, whether any one had been proposed of such a cha should net eneour.ige undefined expectations of reeler, that they might hope to take their stand upon it for further changes in the Constitution. He was some years, and not be called upon to recommence where not one of those who had ever argued that the Re- they had just discontinued. For instance, had they form Bill was a final measure; on the contrary, he adopted the proposition of an Hon. Baronet last Session, had always maintained no Parliament had' the power to of giving to the 101. occupiers in the country the same pass any measure binding and conclusive on future Parlia- franchise as the 10/. householders possessed, would it merits. The same right_ which the Parliament of 1631 have afforded the slightest prospect of an opportu nit y of had to remodel the Constitution of the country the pre- pausing ? Would it not have been immediately used sent one p o ssessed, ~ tl, l could not possibly divest itself of as an argument for still further changes? Suppose it. He believed, also, that no Member of Parliament had they went to the extent of Household Suffrage the right to divest himself of the power of considering at might not the same thing be said? would there not still, some future time . i..e nec ess i ty of' any measure that might re m a i n anomalies in the Constitution? would not there was he weak enough to suppose stiil be small boroughs? And would there be, in any one o f t h i s: a p t r t o h p o o s i e t d ofo to na ler A n c ; t, i; i i;r not a final, was a perfect me a su r e those changes, such a number of supporters, such a —far from it. He was well aware that the Bill produced large class of persons, as would enable the House or the )r the is of ( State, t , rdeihti, 1831, by his Noble Friend the Government to stand its ground ? He for one, and he Secretary i not profess to be a perfect measure, felt convinced almost every Member, must be aware that ( a or to remove all anomalies in the representation, but pro- when once they embarked in changes of the description ceeded on what seemed a wiser principle—that of carrying to which he had adverted, there was no point at which change to the limit which necessity required. At the they could stop short of the reconstruction of the whole same time, he was well aware the measure passed differed representative system upon the basis of numbers, and essentially from that originally proposedeand had no hesita- numbers alone.—( Hear, bear, hear.) Gentlemen were tion in saying he thought that change was greatly for the anxious for what was called Progressive Reform, and if worse. H o grea tly lamented that the Reform Act, as first that was properly explained, he was as anxious for it as submitted to the House, did not become the law of the any man. If they meant by Progressive Reform the most lend, but having once passed, th o u g h confessedly impel-- searching reform—the improvement of the laws, the adop tect, for Parliament to attempt to improve it, in his pi. tion, of a more liberal commercial policy, the rendering of nion, under the prcsnt circumstances of the country, tine administration of justice cheap—( Hear, hear)—the would be al the highest degree inexpedient. He religious education and instruction of the people—if by was always t aug h t to believe that a change in the Progressive Reform they meant measures of that descrip- Constitution of the country was no light matter. An al- tion there was no man more desirous than himself teration in the distribution of political power, which af- for it.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") Probably in stating this tected the interests and passions of almost all classes of he carried his views on these points beyond that of many society was not to be undertaken but under the pressure of Gentlemen with whom he had hitherto acted—but if by great necessity. He remembered the arguments used by Progressive Reform was meant constant changes in the Mr. Canning and others, that the existing representation constitution of the Lessislature, and constant alters ef the people worked well for the interests of the country. tions in the distribution of political power in the If they could have established the fact. as the House of country, keeping it in a constant state of agitation, Commons was then constituted, he should admit the force together with men's minds, so that they were never of the argument. But looking at the state of the country brought to any knowledge of practical Reforms, at . that time, the pauperism and many evils which then af - but their minds were absorbed by propositions of the kind I.l;cted it, he believed their source might be traced to the he had adverted to, which transferred political power conduct of the House of Commons, and that it was attri- from one class to another. If this was progressive hutable to the preponderating influence of the small Reform, he ( Lord llowick) could conceive no greater number of persons who returned Members to Parliament. curse to the country.—( Hear, hear.) He believed that NS bile that state of things remained, it was impossible the :ttnong the qualities which rendered some Governments conduct of those individuals should not operate prejudici- better calculated than others to promote the happiness ally to the interests of the people at large. He be.ieved and welfare of the community, which, after ail, was the while this state of things continued, a system of govern- great object which - ought not to be lost sight of„( Hear, ment essentially corrupt must prevail. It was this convic- hear)—he believed, among all the qualities that made tiun which made him an earnest, though humble supporter, some Governments better qualified for the great ends he had of that great measure of Reform ; but he could not admit adverted to, nothing was of more importance than the sta that state of things existed. He thought that th e work of bility of the form of their C i onstitution.—(Hear, hear ) legislation had mu c h a dvanced since the Reform Act. He b ' rlieved it was that stability n its Cpnstitution which, Those great measures which had been referred to by the through 150 years, in spite of all opposition,. enabled this . Judge Advocate last night, were sufficient to prose the country to arrive h ‘ at a pitch ii ( n i f ic p a r r osE e e a rr r ty ) un H ex c am b p e le ve in d advantage of the great'ineasure of Parliamentary Re- the history of t our laws were stillmeans in their power, to die_ ad- that the true policy L w ortho'sTwho wished Well to the work_ _ o_nsti fr form. dthat fie much b a he a d " ' beenthat many de) ne, contended geatiemen that ‘v more in g classes was, by every of • ctical improvements in tution, and to direct their attention to the practical reforms more rapidly, and that many practical was required, that l eg i s lation ought to have proceeded . courage any expectation furth . er changes ti in the . C • needed. He did not contest that . fact, he adverted to.—( Hear, hear.) He ( Lord Howick) did bzarose from the was of the House of Commons. had been carried . on, it might not be expedient at some e t t w h . i h m at ch h a e llt d m e n t e d tat that fault, if fault it was, not mean to say that when the reform he had alluded to age constitution theH mons to say what great measure's Hon. Members therew h owheerled whichthose ohpaid- taken future period, plaoo ia s in ()e consequence ty, t o mmake aof correspondingchaiiges that might changes in failed from not receiviug the support in that House which the the political institutions of the country.—( Hear, hear. ) people were disposed tri - give them ? He was convinced that He w a s not one that would be rash enough to assert that House on the whole, not perhaps uniformly and Invariably , th e t ime never would come when chan g es were neces but faithfully an d f airly rstilected the sense of the ma j orit y sar y ; but he was c o ntent to j ud g e of the times he saw of the educat e d and crib' htened classes of the community. ,nd at the present time, and in the present state of public If there was any difference of opinion be tween the House o p inion he was persuaded that it would be most injudi. and the cou ntry , h e was prepar ed to maintain the position Mous to make any alteration in the Constitution of the that the Ho use was i n a dvance of the constituency it re- country.—( Hear, hear.) When he stated this he begged presented. He thought this was its natural object, and it to be understood that he did not go further than his that it was the duty of the House of Commons not only to Noble Friend, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, represent, but instinct and lead public opinion. At pre- went in the statements he made last year with respect to sent such was th e cgs,, an d thus Gentlemen w ho sat on the improv'eme'nt in the Reform Act No one was more that side of the House such es the Hon. Member for anxious for improvement than himself in the Reform Act, Liverpool, who stated ids great objects were a more liberal especially in the registration , an im p rovement in that re commercial tmlicy Tuore liberal educations of the sp et he was most anxious to see accomplished. He people, would find th em s e lves g reatly deceived if they might be asked, if he allowed of improvements of this de expected that th e H ouse of Commons, more demo- scription, why he was not ready to assent to other cratically composed, would be mire favourable toopinions &lenges in order to insure a modification of the existing of that descriptio n . H e also remembered that during the representation ; why lie would not consent to changes, time of the Reform A c t they u sed to be often cautioned i which, according to his own showing, were improvements? against mi s t a ki ng w h at was t hen called the (corms for the I In answer to that he would say, that the reason why he ob end. They were told that, after all, the object was not to jected to further change was, that he had accepted . the get a perfect H ouse o f C o mmons, but good laws ; and Reform Act as a settlement of a disputed . question— some of those p ersons were now urging great and further ( Hear , hear)—ani that if he once departed from what was changes in the represent-.tion of the people. At that time then settled, though he light wish that some parts of that they were counselled to malt and see what use the Govern- settlement had be en different, lie c ., uld not foresee where meat would make. of reformed House of Commons when he VMS to stop._( Hear, hear.) lie could not consent they got it. It se eme d to him that it would be a great to attempt to pass constitutional reforms until he saw a error if they .were to postpone useful legislation for the I great necessity, and some fair prospect of having some de purpose of endeavouring to maintain a better. During finite change u p on w hi c h he might rest.—(Hear, hear.) the progreis o f re f;niation all legislation was at He had thought it necessary thus to state his views upon a stand. Good laws and governm en t were ! this important subject, because he could not deny the ma only desirable as they promoted the happines s of the terial effect that was made on his mind by the arrange great body of the p eo; ae, but these great chan ges did in- inenti of the Government—made during the aid autum n . terfere with 7.11 class..., of the community. All ranks of But let his meaning not be mistaken. He old not mean the body politic were disturbed, and suffered on such oc- to imply, or insinuate, in the slightest degree, that the TIIP SUN. LONDON, THURSDAY, JANUARY 30, F4O. E VII, NI.N Ci It - .;'', ~. ; ITION Secretary of State in that liouso, or the Noble Lord at the nead of the Government in the other, had departed from the opinions they had so long entertained—( Hear, hear. ) lie formerly believed that, while he had the honour of belonging to the Government, the policy of his Nk,hle Friend was to maintain uninjured the settle ment made by the Reform Act, and he believed that such was still tae iwentions of the G , r;ernment and his feicuils that Hear, hear.) 11 did rot rtlinluiAlt he situation winch he nal uc honour of hoiding n the Administration of the G_sternment because he be ieved there nas not to be any cliaatte in its policy, fir otherwise, his reasons - .sere what he had already stated; he differed from his Noble Friend, net cs to what ought to be the policy of th. Government, but as to the means by which that policy could be best carrion into effect—( hear)—and he trusted that in leaving the Government on that point he had acted justly to the country, the House, and himself.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that in the result it would be proved that he mistaken in the course he thought the Government ought to pursue, but he thought they might depend upon his support and assist ance, as an independent Meawr..in every measure which he believed to be for the good of the country.,—(llear, hear.) He had supported the present Ministry as a colleague fur four years and a half, and he trusted that it would still be in his power to do so.— Hcar, hear.) He cordially joined with his Right Hon Friend, the Judge Advocate, in resisting the motion now before the House, not only from the confidence he placed in his friends in the Ministry, but from his apprehension of the House coming to a vote hostile to the exist'ng Admi- nistration—(Hear, hear)—because he could not fait con fider by whit species of Government it would he sue- ceeded.—( Hear, hear.) He had been too often in direct opposition to the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, to make it necessary under all circumstances to say that he should greatly regret his accession to power, but he mint say that that opinion had been greatly strengthened by what had occurred during the last recess—even before the rc- cess, during the lest two or three rears, tie thought the confidence of impartial and cool-minded men i❑ the party who sat on the opposite benches, had been greatly shaken by the course they had adopted. To their party interests, the interests of the empire, as con ❑ected with its colonies, had been sacrificed. When he looked back to the proceedings of the House of Lords at the conclusion of 1137, and when he recollected the disastrous proceedings they might have produced, and Almost did produce in Canada, he thought he had good ground for the opinion he had expressed. Then, during the last year, look into the preLvedings with respect to Jamaica. The Right Hon. Baronet, the Memb♦ r for Tamworth, had taken great credit to himself for the policy Oe then adopted with respect to that country. He had Appealed to the House with triumph as to what had taken place in that island; and he had stated that it had been the result of the course he had pursued.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (Lord Howick) could only say, from the observa tions that be had made, that whatever might be the im proved prospect of Jamaica, yet he regarded the rejection of the measure of last year as the infliction of the death wound upon the real improvements and civilisation of Ja maica. —( Hear, and cries of " No.") He trusted that what he had stated would prove to be incorrect—but he believed that Parliament had lost an opportunity of improving the institutions and laws of Jamaica which never could be re called. Then the Poor-laws had been adverted to. Now it was impossible for him to observe otherwise than with the highest degree of approbation, the conduct of many gentlemen whom he saw opposite, with reference to the Poor-laws. The leaders of the party opposite had no doubt abstained from taking part in that agitation. He wished he could say more than abstained—( Hear, hear) — for who can doubt that although they had abstained from taking part in the agitation, still that they were at the bottom of it ? It was true that the leaders who had been opposed to them had been no parties to the agitation—but still all the Newspapers who advocated the interest of the party —( Cries of " Oh, oh,")—he (Lord Howick) had yet to learn that Newspapers did not exercise in this country great and formidable powers, and that they were not in a considerable degree influenced by what they be lieved to be the views of particular parties.—( Hear.) Not only had the newspapers set up this New Poor-law cry, but Hon. Members opposite had made use of it, for the pose of carrying their elections.—( Hear, hear.) Even so lately as last autumn, a person of no small account among the party on the other side, a Gallant Officer, who once tilled the office of Secretary of State for the Colonies, made use of this cry at Manchester.—( Hear, hear.) Sir G. Murray adopted this cry at Manchester, and made use of expressions, with respect to the Poor-laws. which were only worthy the columns of a party newspaper. He con tended that Honourable Members oa the other side had acted most unjustly in raising this cry, and he would as sert that any person who had attended to the transactions on this subject for the last two years could not but perceive that the anti-Poor-law agitation had begun, and produced Chartist agitation. This cry it was that brought forward such men as Oastler and Stephens, who recommended re sistance to the law by physical force, and who broached opinions subversive of society altogether. These men it was that made the working classes believe that the Poor law alone kept down their wages. If this state of things was to be allowed, what would be the result ? Why, the next cry would be that the Representatives of this House must not be the representatives of property, but of num bers.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It would be said that a Paxliment representing property ought to be discarded, and that a Parliament representing numbers, and numbers alone, was to be endured. But if such was the case during the last year or two, what had taken place during the last recess? Why, a spirit, if possible, still worse and more dangerous for exciting the people, had been employed, and he alluded to the attempt made to get up the cry of " No Popery," and the " Church in danger."—( Hear, hear.) . He rejoiced that every Mem ber who had spoken on the debate, even the Hon. Mem ber for Dumbarton, had been ashamed of that cry, and he could not help remarking that if the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, returned to power, he would in a great measure, have to trust to those persons in Ire ;and who, for the last few years, had been casting con tumely upon those who professed the religion of three-fourths of the people of Ireland. t lt was most true that the Right Honourable Baronet disapproved of the conduct and the language which different persons had used. And he (Lord Howick) was convinced that it was the ease that many Hon. Gentlemen on the other side, holding extreme opinions, found themselves com pelled to avail themselves of the talent and ability of the Right Hon. Baronet, and placed themselves under his guidance, but still entertained no real respect or affection for him.—(Cheers from the Ministerial side.) The wounds of 1829 were not yet healed—they were but thinly skinned over ; and he would state his belief that no change in the Government would still the tem?est that was then raging in the kingdom, or put down the discon tent which, he was afraid, they all acknowledged to exist, and which, he was sure, they all lamented. It appeared a fearful thing for the safety of the empire, if the discontent prevalent in England and Scotland should spread itself to Ireland. He had detained the House longer than had been originally his intention, but he was anxious to take that opportunity of making an unreserved and explicit declara tion of his opinion of the present aspect of affairs, and he would conclude by expressing his Isearfelt hope that no observation of his could, by any possi bility injure his friends, with whom he had heretofore acted—( Hear, hear)---or would in the slightest degree tend to produce any estrangement or alienation.— ( Hear. ) If that should be the consequence of what he had stated, he sincerely regretted it, but he believed it was his duty to state the reasons that had compelled him unwillingly to withdraw his services from her Majesty's Government. Sir JAMES GRAHAM then rose and said he was truly grateful for being allowed to follow the Noble Lord who had just sat down, and he must say in the commence ment that he had heard parts of the Noble Lord's speech with unmixed satisfaction, but he must observe that twing heard the Noble Lord's premises, he hastened with unbounded astonishment to his conclusions. For the Noble Lord had admitted distinctly, that the motion, such as had been made by the Hon. Baronet the Member for Devonshire, was a motion of great importance, to be sustained by strong reasons and unusual circumstances.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had admitted that distinctly, and if he (Sir J. Graham) were called on to state a single circumstance hich could satisfy him of that, it was the secession of the Noble Lord on the grounds which he had that night stated. And those grounds constituted ample and suf ficient reason for the motion that had been made, and for the attack that had been commenced on his side of the House. He would recall the recollection of the House to what the Noble Lord had stated. He (the Noble Lord) had referred to the transactions of last May, and strong as were the expressions of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government in the other House, and strong as were the expressions of the Noble Lord op. posite, announcing to the two Houses and the public the loss of confidence and the great crisis of public alai. s which had induced them to resign office and quit the con duct of affairs, he (Sir J. Graham) said those ware the reasons, and strong as they appeared, which seemed to him weak, compared to the declaration just made by the Noble Lord of the c,mscions inability of the Go vernment any longer to conduct the affairs of the nation in a crisis when they did not possess the confidence of the other House, and when the confidence in that House was daily becoming weaker from the secession of respectable, powerful and important friends, till their majority had dwindled to a mere nothing.—(Cheers from the Opposi tion.) He (Sir J. Graham) had taken a memorandum of the expressions. The Noble Lord had said, that he ( Lord Ilowick) had left the Government, because he thought they had not the means of carrying it on with credit. He (Sir J. Graham) wanted no greater argu ment : that was their case ; and it was admitted by the Noble L•rd that on the 6th August last he loft the Go vernment, because he thought they had not the means of carrying it on with credit to those who composed it.—( Hear, hear.) And that was the whole case of the Noble Lord, by which Government required further assistance, and assistance too that might strengthen them. He ( Sir J. Graham) had evidence that the Noble Lord had said the Government must strengthen i'.self wit'mut asking aid of those desiring further changes in the Constitution. The Noble Lord's opinion was, that to strengthen their weakness, assistance should be obtained, but assistance of a particular kind—namely, from those not disposed for a democratic movement or for the introduction of farther changei in the Constitution. He (Sir James Graham) understood the Noble Lord's declaration to be that in his (the Noble Lord's) opinion it was necessary to ask aid from those upholding progressive improvement, but opposed to great changes.—(" Hear, hear," from the Op position.) He k Sir J. Graham) was confirmed in that statement by the recollections of his friends. Now the Noble Lord, entertaining the opinion of the Government being weakened by changes, and rendered still weaker in the opinion of the Noble Lord by the changes that were taking place, he (Sir J. G ra h am ) sa id hi s a stonishment was unbounded when a motion was made that, in such a case, the Government was not unworthy of the confidence of the House —he (Sir J. Graham) said his astonishment was infinite when the Noble Lord stated that ho should support such a motion. The Noble Lord had said that his responsibility was great in leaving his colleagues in a crisis of such difficulty. The Noble Lord said the danger was in the state of affairs then, but he rendered the case stronger by thinking that the danger was greater at the present moment. He (Sir •. J. Graham) then rewrncd to the point. If a Minister of the Crown, conscious of weakness, disapproving of changes, remonstrating, and still remonstrating without success,—if. on his owu judgment and honour, the Noble Lord left his colleagues from a sense of duty—from a s , •tv , e of weakness in the government—if he said an ic 3 e of (3. , aty comp:Alert him to leave an Adnii- wh4t mast b , ! the wonder that the Noble Lord should oppose the motion embodying the very sentiments that had been expressed by that Noble Lord?—(Cheers from the Opposition.) The Noble Lord had laid down principles in which he (Sir J. Graham) entirely con curred. Ile said he was in favour of progressive reform, provided great changes in the Constitution were carefully at•oided. Had it not been for that unfortunate difference that existel re4arding th•a Corn•laws, he (Sir J. Graham) could not sce anv d:iference between himself and the Noble Lord This he was sure of, that as far as regarded principles of progressive reform, he (Sir James Graham) was willing to act with the Noble Lord.—( Loud cheers. ) The Noble Lord thought that the registration, as it was then fixed, was vexatiotH in the highest degree. Those were the reasons then that the Noble Lord gave for Flip porting the Government. That brought Lim to the real matter which he was anxious to urge upon the House as a ground why he (Sir J. Gr,ham):, - bouhl deliberately vote for the motion of the Hon. Baronet. He ( Sir James Graham) thought he had found the real position of the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord, like Ishmael of old, had left his father's house and gone into the wilderness with his hand against every man.—( A laugh.) The Noble Lord bad doa.t sonic censure on every part of the Homo, and he must say the least censure had fallen on the side on which he (Sir James Graham) stood. And in the balanced state of his mind, he thought the Noble Lord would find relief by coining to thtt side of the House—( A laugh)— to which he seemed gravitating., and effect a great, sub . . . stantial change, and an entire dissolution of connection.— ( Loud cheers and laughter.) The Hon. Member for Carlow, who had spoken last night, had stated that he took his stand on two great questions, for which the Hon. Gentleman thought the Government was entitled to com rnendaion. That Hon. Gentleman said he took his stand, first, on the Tithe Act, and, secondly, he took his stand on the Reform Act He (Sir J. Graham) boldly asserted that on those two points he took his stand, also, in favour of the motion of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Devonshire. And, if the House would bear with him, he could prove to the satisfaction of every impartial man, that, whether with regard to the conduct of the present Administr :tion, with respect to the Titbit Act of 1/35, or with respect to the Reform Act, he said, with reference to both those points, he would prove that they were not entitled to the confidence of that House. He would recal the recollec ion of the House to what had taken place with regard to the Tithe Act. That was the origin of the dispute between himself ..nd the Noble Lord opposite ; it first took place in the dis cussion of 1834. He had now before him the words used by the Noble Lord in the debate in May of that year, when the Noble Lord stated that nothing but the n,ost imperative sense of duty would lead him to risk the pol:ti- cal connexion of his friends whom be esteemed ; but such was the importance of the principle of the alienation of a portion of the property of the Irish Church to secular uses, that under nu circumstances could he refrain from urging that which was termed Justice to Ireland and at that time the watch-word of a party in the House. It was in consequence of that declaration that he ( Sir J. Graham) and two of his colleagues left Lord Grey's Admi nistration.—( Cheers.) That Government was suc ceeded by the Government of 1834, but omitting the principle of appropriation. Now, what did the Noble Lord say on "moving the Appropriation resolution of 1835 ? The Noble Lord said the real strength of the question was such, that if the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite could count on a majority of 100—yet he would bring forward, year after year, Bills with respect to the Church of Ire land. The Noble Lord carried the resolution that de stroyed the Government of his Right Hon. Friend, and and that resolution was the foundation of the Government of Lord Melbourne.—( Hear, hear.) Now, if ever a Ca binet was bound by a principle from which it was impos sible to depart, he said that Government was, when it had pledged itself to the principle of Appropriation. But did it rest there. What was the declaration of Lord Melbourne in 1836 ? It was suggested that it was possible to get over that principle. Now let them listen to what Lord Melbourne had stated. Why he stated that he could not depart from the principle of appropriation without a total se orifice of character and reputation—( Loud cheers from the Oppo sition)—and he ( Lord Melbourne) believed that it would be a most beneficial measure for Ireland, and one which he was determined to stand by. Now he ( Sir J. Graham) said if a Government could depart from such a pledge and be entitled to the confidence of that House, he then said that there never was an administration convicted of such a breach of engagements so solemnly entered into. He said not only in point of honour, but in point of feeling, it was binding on them to adhere to that resolution. He saw the Hon. Member for Sheffield opposite, and he thought, in a communication to his constituents, he bad re ferred to something that had fallen from him (Sir James Graham) respecting the Corn-laws. He would take leave to refresh the Hon. Gentleman's recollection regarding a declaration he had made on that subject to his consti tuents either last year or the year before. If he was not deceived he had seen a report in which the Hon. Member stated that this desertion of the appropriation principle in the settlement of the tithe question in Ireland was the basest act of political tergiversation which he had ever seen in his life. If the Honourable Member addressed the House lse would have an opportunity of explaining no doubt satisfactorily, if not to them, at all events to his constituents, how, after making that declaration, he was prepared to vote confidence in her Majesty's Government-- Cheers. ) Proceeding from that question, he wished to state to the House another fact on which he was prepared to vote his entire want of confidence in the Government. The settlement of the Tithe question had been highly sa tisfactory to himself and Hon. Members on his ( Sir James Graham's) side of the House. It was highly satisfactory, because it gave a complete triumph to them while struggling for the extinction of the obnoxious principle of appropria tion, and had gone tar to give peace and contentment to Leland, which had been the prey of constant and harrassing disturbances. But there was a danger foreseen in that arrangement. He ( Sir James Graham) had said that it might give the Protestant landlords of Ireland an interest adverse to the Protestant Church. Now within three months after the settlement of that question, what had occurred ?—( Hear, hear.) A LOrd Lieutenant of a county in Ireland, occupying a post near the pet son of her Majesty, favoured theretore by Government and by the Crown, headed a requisition for a county meeting in Ire land to sign a petition " for the total extinction of tithes, in substance as well as in name, or their appropriation to national purposes."—( Loud cheers.) Actually the very course they had foreseen—(Cheers)—as the only one of danger arising from the settlement which in other respects was satisfactory. The person who led the way in that dangerous course of mischief and danger to the Protestant Church was the Lord Lieutenant of an Irish county. occu pying a place at the Court of her Majesty, and he still re• mained Lord Lieutenant, and still retained the favour of his S. - .vereign.—(Loud cheers.) It could do nothing but show the people of Ireland that such conduct, far from forfeiting the favour of the Government, appeared the surest mode of retaining it.--( Hear, hear, hear.) ale had reason to think that it was also considered the best mode of retaining the favour of the Sovereign. He had reason to think not only was that the fact, but that a peculiar mark of fa vour and distinction had been conferred on that Nobleman, thereby marking the favour of his Sovereign.—(Cheers. ) He would confidently ask was that Government worthy the con fidence of the country?—( Hear, hear.) But, passing from that disputed—that oft-fought field of Ireland—he came to what was more directly connected with what fell from the Noble Lord, with reference to the dangerous change recently introduced into the Government itself. Of his Right Hon. Friend the Judge Advocate, although any compliment that fell from him would be unworthy acceptance, he must be permit ted to say, that although now opposed to him, yet the recol lection of ancient days of sincere friendship had been highly gratified by the display of high talent that had distinguished his speech of the previous night, while it fully justified the friendly anticipations he had made, that he would occupy the highest post in the deliberations and debates in that House.—( Hear, hear.) His Right Honourable Friend had reproached them with regard to the time of bring ing on the present question. He ( Sir James Graham) had sat for some time in that House. He had sat long upon the opposition benches, and he lihd had some experience in the management of public affairs, and he had always observed teat when objections were made by an Administration in point of time to any motion brought forward, and particularly when that Government expressed its delight at the charge that had been made, and opportunity afforded them of meeting it, there was always something that pinched, and that it was inconvenient in point of time.--(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman asked why was the question brought forward now—what new circumstance or reason had arisen ? He would tell him at once, since the weak, disturbed, distracted Government came down to Parliament in May last, and declared their utter incompe tence to conduct the affairs of the country, from their increas ing weakness—( Hear, hear)—many circumstances had arisen. First of all, there was the Marquis of Normanloy, whose e ase had been considered, and testimony produced with regard to his conduct in Ireland, from which there was no appeal, that evidence being placed on record. —( Hear, hear.) That con duct had been investigated and censured by one branch of the Legislature for the manner in which he had exercised the pre rogative of mercy—for his conduct towards the Judges in Ire land, and for the mode in which he had generally administered Irish affairs.—( Hear, h ear .) Th e Noble Lord h ad been trans ferred from the Colonial to the Horne Office, where again he was the special adviser of her Majesty, with respect to her prerogative of mere, and where he was the direct organ of communication with the Judges of Great Britain.—( Hea r ' hear.) Then the Noble Lord (J. Russell) himself—who rto not very happy in his management of colonial affairs, or in his attempt to settle the Jamaica question • and in his con duct with r egar d t o t h at question, the Noble Lord appeared to him to have ma d e t h e most mal-adroit admission on that pain t he had ever heard—in returning to office under very doubt ful circumstances, with his majority of five not much improved; threw over-board the en ti re sc heme for the settlement o f Jamaica. All his plans for the improvement and protection °', the negroes, and for their security from inju.tice and oppres sion, were abandoned, and he adopted the most noxious me asure proposed by hi s (Si r J. Graham's) side of the House, and boldly took upon himself the responsibility of passing it. S ° the matter appeared to rest until the extraordinary di sc laimer_ of the other night. His Right Hon. Frie n d th e M em ber for Tamworth had congratulated the Noble Lord on the settle ment of the Jamaica question—that everything that could be desired had been obtained—that the House of Assembly wer e , on the best terms with the Governor, and had given the tons" substantial proofs of it by voting a large increase of his salary"' nothing, in fact, could be more satisfactory. " Oh," said the Noble Lord, " the unhappy condition of the affairs of Jarilai'l is such, that, under the Act of the last Session, it is impossibie that justice can be done between black and white—the blast has no chance whatever of obtaining justice. Such is the offer of your Bill, which we wish now to cure." Now, if that we re the opinion of the Noble Lord—if he was really of op inion that the measure he adopted was inconsistent with justice icbe tween man and man—that the mea sure h e a b an d one d would have accomplished that, he appealed to the House, and r e would ask whether conduct such a s th at cou ld comman d t ij a confidence of any portion of that House ?—( Loud cheers.) would now return to a question which was more impart''' and on which he might shy with the Hon Member for Carn he took his stand—he meant the conduct of the Noble L oc i with respect to the vital point, (fir. so it had been consid ered by the Noble Lord the Member for Northumberla nd ' ) the constitution of th e Commons Howe of Parliamen t. " - he ( Hear.) Hethought it was i n I $ 32 t h at t h e N o bl e L or d ,w hen l lon. Member for the City of London made a motion respect'''